I have been debating with Alan J. about Oswald's short bus trip and Otto also wants to engage me on Whaley's time line and it seems to me that the CT's in their overzealousness to prove everything a fabrication that they are overlooking the fact that Oswald using public transport or private commercial transportation as opposed to what can only amount to a getaway car doesn't advance their conspiracy even one bit. Alan J. wants me to believe that Oswald exiting Dealey Plaza via public-transportation was manufactured and thus for reasons known only to himself, somehow is evidence of a conspiracy but what is the alternative?
"The reason why the bus trip to nowhere was invented was for the following reason: to plant manufactured "evidence", a bus-transfer to imply the wrongly-accused left Dealey Plaza via public-transportation."
What part of that answer don't you understand, Mr. Mytton?
Alan J. Ford.
We know Oswald was at the Depository at about 12:33 and at the Texas Theatre a little over an hour later and if Oswald didn't use publicly available transport to get to the general vicinity of the theatre then how the heck did he get there? The following response of mine is based on what was a commonly held CT belief that Roger Craig saw Oswald running from the Depository and as I indicate the timing of this encounter strongly suggests Oswald being involved.
"The evidence that may lead to some sort of alternate method of conveyance is Roger Craig's testimony that about 14 to 15 minutes after the first shot he observed what he believes was Oswald running toward a station wagon being driven by a very dark complected man but unfortunately for the Oswald defenders this opens a serious new can of worms. According to Truly, Oswald's lunch break was between 12:00 to 12:45, meaning that unless this meeting was pure coincidence then this rendezvous was prearranged for the very end of Oswald's lunch break and how could Oswald possibly know beforehand that the President would be shot and thereafter work would be abandoned, unless he was involved?"
JohnM
Mr. BELIN - Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Fourteen or 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN - Fourteen or 15 minutes?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Was this, you mean, after the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG - After the---from the time I heard the first shot.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Your heard someone whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes. So I turned and--uh-saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.
After Alan J.'s seeming disinterest in my Roger Craig analysis, I presented the following post which explains the possible repercussions of the alternative to using Public Transport.
"So you believe that Oswald didn't use public transport to leave Dallas, interesting, then the only other alternatives that I see are that Oswald walked/jogged/ran/sprinted which is all highly unlikely or Oswald drove himself and without owning a car that's pretty difficult, or the point I raised which you haven't yet had the courage to confront because you must realize it's devastating significance, is that Oswald used an accomplice's getaway car to get himself and this unidentified accomplice away from the scene of the crime, an accomplice who just dumped Oswald off at the Texas Theatre, are you sure you want to pursue this particular narrative because it flies in the face of your claim that Oswald was wrongly accused?"
JohnM
I am open to any other plausible explanation of how Oswald got to the Theatre, and if not innocently by public transport then how?
JohnM
I am open to any other plausible explanation of how Oswald got to the Theatre, and if not innocently by public transport then how?
If I thought you were "open to the truth" I'd happily engage you in discussing this aspect of the tale. But I have seen you in action, and I doubt that you're open to anything that refutes the official tale.
(https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2015-07-28-1438125588-2688981-FrySarcasm-thumb.jpg)But you'll have to answer my questions....
Please don't let my sarcasm which I thought was pretty obvious dissuade you, I would really like to hear your alternative?
JohnM
But you'll have to answer my questions....
I'll start out with a very simple and easy to answer questions.....
So you seemingly have no answers on how Oswald got to the Texas Theatre, duly noted.
JohnM
I have an idea how Lee got to the theater....But I'm not offering that until you man up and answer my simple questions.
I have no interest in your simple questions and as a matter of fact I have no interest in your ideas either.
Bye!
JohnM
I have no interest in your simple questions and as a matter of fact I have no interest in your ideas either.
Bye!
JohnM
The testimony of William Whaley.....
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close hut I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Lee_Harvey_Oswald_arrested_at_the_Texas_Theatre%2C_Dallas%2C_Texas%2C_22_November_1963.jpg)
The pants do go off-black in areas sunstruck.
The clothes that Whaley's passenger was wearing were BLUE (Jacket and trousers)
Lee Oswald was wearing a REDDISH BROWN shirt and gray trousers....
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184856/m1/1/med_res/) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) "I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants" |
Whaley didn't say the jacket and trousers were blue.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
He said the pants were "like a blue uniform made in khaki". Personally, I think he's using the term "khaki" as a metaphor for something that's not a solid primary color. On Nov. 23, Whaley described Oswald as "dressed in gray khaki pants". Gray/Blue interchangable for Whaley because they're both not solid primary colors.
I don't think there was literally "blue khaki" back in the 1960s. As I showed, the trousers do lighten up in what some might call bluish-or-grayish (ie: not a solid primary color) when the pants are sunstruck.
I think Whaley memory-merged the shirt and "jacket" when there was just the shirt.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184856/m1/1/med_res/)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants"
I think Whaley memory-merged the shirt and "jacket" when there was just the shirt.
"memory-merged" -- LOL
10W, all heat no light.
You think Whaley was a digital camera? :D
hinky - slang : SUSPICIOUS
Where is any supporting evidence of Whaley's WWII combat award?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51403060979_3e847c54b3_b.jpg)
Why did Whaley's birth year, consistent in all records, birth, multiple US census, on his son William's 1931 birth certificate, and on his 1940 draft registration, change from 1908 to 1905 sometime after that?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51401605157_40322057c2_b.jpg)
Phillips Family History: A Brief History of the Phillips ... - Page 127 books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q=oscar+william+whaley,+dallas&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisifuig83yAhVpCTQIHZWBCPIQ_AUoAXoECAEQCw&biw=1145&bih=650)
Harry Phillips · 1935 ·
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51403148059_65c12de678_c.jpg)
Why was Whaley's son and namesake raised by his deceased mother's sister and considered her husband to be his father?
Whaley genealogy as understood by a family member,:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51401668682_00061f4e6a_b.jpg)
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157070315/
Tuesday, June 24, 1997
Rio Rancho. WHALEY William Wayne Whaley, 65, passed away unexpectedly on June 18, 1997 in Michigan while on vacation. Husband of 43 years to Dorothy; father and father-in-law of Jamy and Gregg Peevy and Bill Jr. and Dee Whaley, all of Albuquerque; son of Alice (Pat) Scales of Albuquerque. Mr. Whaley retired from Us Alamos National Ubs in 1993 after 17 years. A memorial service will be held Wednesday, 3:00 p.m. at French Mortuary, Umas Blvd. Chapel, 10500 Umas NE. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Noonday Ministry, P.O. Box 8769, Albuquerque, NM 87198 or New Mexico Boys and Girls Ranch, 6209 Hendrix NE, Albuquerque, NM 87110.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157414971/
Tuesday, October 30, 1984 Albuquerque Journal
..............
SEALES Mr. Alvin S. Seales, age 73 and a resident here 21 years, died Monday in a local hospital following an illness. He is survived by his wife, Alice; a son William W. Whaley and wife Dorothy; granddaughter Jamy Whaley; grandson, William W. Whaley Jr. and wife Nancy, all of Albuquerque; a brother Clarence L Seales and wife Ramona; sister Denme Mae Morris; sister-in-law Katie Seales; four nephews and five nieces. Mr. Seales retired from Federal A via Don Administration and was a member of the Methodist Church, Air Traffic Control Association, a veteran of WWII, and member of D.A.V. Borderland Post 10 in El Paso, TX. Services will be held Wednesday at 11.00 a.m. in the Chapel of Fitzgerald and Son Funeral Directors, 3113 Carlisle NE, with Rev. Henry Weston, officiating. Inter ment will follow in the Santa Fe National Cemetery at 1:00 p.m.
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1166607
Alice Patterson Seales Alvin S Seales
http://obits.abqjournal.com/obits/show/124388
Published on: Fri January 29, 1999
..............
Seales -- Alice (Pat) Seales, passed away Wednesday morning, January 27, 1999, at Sunrise Mission Manor Care and Rehabilitation. She was 91 years old. She was preceded in death by her husband, Alvin S. Seales; and her son, William Whaley. She is survived by her daughter-in-law, Dorothy Whaley; and grandchildren, Jamy Peevy and her husband, Gregg, Bill Whaley and his wife, Dee. Memorial services will take place at a later date. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Sandia Hospice, 4775 Indian School Rd. NE, Suite 310, Albuquerque, NM 87110.
The newspaper story is nothing but the reporter's imagination.....
You think Whaley was a digital camera? :D
David ?
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-767.html
Why was Whaley quoted on the day of the assassination, talking about his passenger log being in "15 minute increments," unless he, himself, had already had to defend it as supporting his claim Oswald had been his passenger?
Whaley's WC testimony, months later...
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm
"...Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own words what he did?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at the Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes?
Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction.
Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the one up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this 12:15 to 12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at 1:15 to 1:30 and it goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time keeps pretty approximate.
Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me about that, what the passenger said.
Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?"..."
Mr Whaley is referring to the man who was dressed in BLUE.... Whaley said that the man was wearing a BLUE jacket and trousers the matched the color and material of jacket. Lee was NOT wearing a BLUE jacket ( he wasn't wearing any jacket) nor was he wearing BLUE trousers.
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm
...
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years.
Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven.
Bingo! I strongly suspect Whaley was FoS, or suffered from autism. He sometimes insisted on exact... consider the CBS video and his description of timing the traffic lights on his reenactment of his alleged 11/22 trip to "O.H. Lee's" street... and his correcting the Chief Justice... a mere taxi driver...
Yet, his family doesn't ever learn from him that his son was raised by his late wife's sister and he loses track of his birth year? His social security record reads "1905," too.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51403314730_ba5873e61f_b.jpg)
Is it possible that Mr Buell Wesley Frazier gave Mr Oswald a ride from the Depository after the assassination?
It would certainly explain his less than convincing/consistent accounts of his own post-assassination movements, as well as his late-revealed 'memory' of seeing Mr Oswald walking away from the Depository several minutes after the shooting.................
Just a thought
I strongly suspect Whaley was FoS, or suffered from autism.
If you read Whaley's testimony I believe that you'll see that Whaley himself told them that he was spinning yarns. Not in those words but he said something like a good lawyer could rip my story apart...
Not even Saul Goodman would stoop to splitting hairs like blue-khaki and shirt/jacket being two entities.
Because CT's know that normal, innocent people (who are not in a hurry) don't get off of buses and pay money that they don't have for cabs.
Oswald was in a hurry to get his .38 in case he had to shoot cops..Don't forget the extra bullets.
Normal people don't get into a cab before they leave a bus stuck in traffic.
Working stiffs like Oswald (with a family to feed) stay on the bus and wait for the traffic to lighten.
The FACT that there were FBI agents in the theater when Lee arrived should cause you to question his motive for hurrying to the theater.
Not according to the Warren Commission.
They put him on a cab that had already left.
Now what?
Don't forget the extra bullets.
Anyway, lots of people walk around the streets with a loaded revolver and extra bullets. How many of them worked at the building where shots were fired at the president? And who were the only people in the building at the time of the shooting who left afterwards? And who were seen carrying a large package to work that day? And who......et cetera, et cetera.
Let's not talk about those things. Besides all of that is the "official story." Is it true? Doesn't matter. It's the "official story" and must be dismissed.
Don't forget the extra bullets.
You really should have paid attention when I destroyed Chapman.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=356
Enjoy!
Two decades (thanks for the correction) of accumulated desperation -- LOL
Are you now suggesting that the two FBI agents did not have their information from "the man himself", Whaley?
Can't wait for the details!
Thumb1:
Oswald left the Rooming House with every bullet he could get his hands on, much like using his last four Carcano bullets in the Kennedy assassination and judging by the Walker note, Oswald was expecting that he was going to have a confrontation, a confrontation which he may not survive, clearly indicating he was prepared to use those bullets in a final showdown. What a Prick!
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t0dQNzD/CE-1-walker-note.jpg)
JohnM
I knew you couldn't refute even one of my pieces of evidence, any one of which alone conclusively proves that Oswald was in Whaley's cab! Thanks for your participation.
JohnM
Don't forget the extra bullets.
Anyway, lots of people walk around the streets with a loaded revolver and extra bullets. How many of them worked at the building where shots were fired at the president? And who were the only people in the building at the time of the shooting who left afterwards? And who were seen carrying a large package to work that day? And who......et cetera, et cetera.
Let's not talk about those things. Besides all of that is the "official story." Is it true? Doesn't matter. It's the "official story" and must be dismissed.
And who just happened to pass in the vicinity of the first shooting of a DPD officer in a several year span. And looked exactly like the shooter. And acted so suspiciously that he draws the attention of bystanders on his way to the movies to such an extent that they call the police when he enters without buying a ticket. And who, instead of asking the police what is going on when approached, instead draws his pistol and engages in a struggle with police....It's a long list. One can dismiss some of this but all of it?
I knew you couldn't refute even one of my pieces of evidence, any one of which alone conclusively proves that Oswald was in Whaley's cab! Thanks for your participation.
JohnM
Which piece of evidence--- "conclusively proves that Oswald was in Whaley's cab"?
Very Well, Mr Mytoe.... It is a recorded FACT that Whaley said that the man whom he transported to Oakcliff was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers that matched the BLUE Jacket.
Mr Mytoe.....
Member's must address fellow Forum members by their Forum username at all times.
Posts where members are antagonistically addressed by a name other than their Forum username, will be deleted.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2006.0.html
JohnM
Reality Check:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1067.html
This jacket problem is very confusing.
Was the CE 163 jacket ( the BLUE jacket) found in the Domino room a month after the assassination or not?
If it was. Then Walt is correct in surmising how could Whaleys “Oswald” passenger be wearing a BLUE jacket unless there was a THIRD unaccounted for blue jacket?
You're making this issue far more complicated than it actually is....
The relevant point ... The crux.... Lee Oswald was NOT wearing a jacket when he left the TSBD.......It was established by the WC that all witnesses who saw Lee after he left the TSBD and when he arrived at the rooming house said that He was wearing a brown shirt... However, Bill Whaley said the man who entered his cab at 12:30 ( Lee was at the TSBD at 12:30) was wearing a jacket ...It was a BLUE jacket. Whaley said the mans trouser were also BLUE and made from the same material as the Jacket.
Bottom Line.... Lee Oswald was not wearing a BLUE jacket nor were his trousers BLUE.... Whaley's passenger was NOT Lee Oswald.
Your "Reality Check" went down in flames instantly after clicking the Whaley link:
William Wayne Whaley had been a cab driver in Dallas, Texas, for 37
years as of Friday, November 22, 1963. On that date, at approximately
12:48 PM, Mr. Whaley had the very unique experience of having a
Presidential assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, get into his "1961 Checker"
taxicab at the Greyhound Bus Station in downtown Dallas.
Whaley was long gone by 12:48 as confirmed by the 11/29 FBI report.
Whaley didn't say the jacket and trousers were blue.For that matter, here's Whaley's original affidavit:
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
Whaley might have been confused on the matter of there being a "jacket". The shirt was similar to a jacket.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184856/m1/1/small_res/)
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention
for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.
Whaley didn't say the jacket and trousers were blue.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
Whaley might have been confused on the matter of there being a "jacket". The shirt was similar to a jacket.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184856/m1/1/small_res/)
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention
for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.
For that matter, here's Whaley's original affidavit:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340356/m1/1/?q=whaley (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340356/m1/1/?q=whaley)
In it he describes his passenger as "small, 5'8 or so, slender, had on a dark shirt with white spots of something on it. he had a bracelet on his left wrist. He looked like he was 25 or 26 years old."
Nothing about a jacket, blue or not. For that matter, nothing about blue, either.
And here is Whaley describing his passenger in the FBI's 11/23/63 interview report:
Whaley described the passenger "wearing a heavy identification bracelet on his left wrist, he appeared to need a haircut, and was dressed in gray khaki pants which looked like they had been slept in. He had on a dark colored shirt with some light color in it. The shirt had long sleeves and the top two or three buttons were unbuttoned. The color of the shirt nearly matched the pants, but was somewhat darker. The man wore no had. He appeared to be 25 years of age, 5' 7" to 8" tall, about 135 pounds with brown hair thick on top."
Also, no jacket was described, and no blue anywhere.
Thank you, Todd. It was just a cherry-pick on their part. ::)
So what about Oswalds keys to his boarding house front door, his close-able partition room, his P.O. Box, and what about his bracelet, ring, wallet with 13$ cash ( about $100 in 2021), and his fake ID. In the wallet.?
Either he must been doing his lifting moving and wrapping job with all these items in his loose pants with only T-shirt on, or he put some or all, in his brown shirt and or jacket pockets which shirt/jacket were left elsewhere either Domino room or some storage room.
Mr Spock, I’m not sure what kind of manual labor you have ever done on planet Vulcan, but the gravity factor here on earth tends to make objects like keys, and wallets fall out of loose pants pockets unexpectedly when an earthling human is doing motions like bending, kneeling, and running up and down staircases
Objects like bracelet with chain that could get easily caught while using machinery, is unsafe practice and it’s therefore a valid question if Oswald would risked that let alone breaking damaging his precious jewelry.
I'm well aware of the FBI report but when you have the words from the man himself, well, that trumps everything else and you really should have paid attention when I have already destroyed you.
Let me go over the evidence once again, which you have forgotten or in your zeal to prove something/anything have conveniently ignored?
Number 1: Oswald admitted catching a cab and Oswald described to Fritz, a lady who also wanted a cab and she was told that there was another cab behind.
Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you to tell me what he said about the transfer.
Mr. FRITZ. He told he that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab.
So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.
I asked him how much the cabfare was, he said 85 cents.
In Whaley's affidavit he describes a lady who wanted a cab and just as Oswald told Fritz, she was told there was a cab behind, see how independent corroboration destroys you!
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0kY8d4G/metapth339843-xl-DSMA-91-001-1501062-2883-01.jpg)
Whaley was into bracelets because he made them himself, so obviously he noticed Oswald wearing a Bracelet and what made this Bracelet especially stand out is that it was shiny!
Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself. I made this one.
Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in them?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that.
Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it and tell me if you have ever seen it before.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that was the bracelet or not.
Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it.
And what do you know, Oswald was wearing a shiny Bracelet. Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkJrCrvp/Oswald-bracelet-fist-salute-1.jpg)
In the following photo Oswald wasn't wearing his Bracelet, Marine ring or his brown shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76d96Mfd/Oswald-no-bracelet.jpg)
When Oswald was led into the line-up he wasn't wearing his brown shirt or the Marine Ring and throughout the clip I couldn't see the bracelet, so how could Whaley even know that Oswald possessed and was wearing a bracelet? Again this evidence destroys you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zB2D67xL/no-ring-Oswald.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5CtCVVs/oswald-line-up.gif)
In a line-up you identify a suspect to the Police and Detective Leavelle confirms that Whaley identified Oswald. Guess what, this conclusive evidence also destroys you!
Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say anything to you personally?
Mr. LEAVELLE. To me personally?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, of course, I asked him if he---if the man that he remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was up there and he said "Yes, the man in the T-shirt." Whether he was doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still knew him.
Whaley as a cab driver could literally go anywhere in Dallas but at the right time and don't forget Whaley testified to not using a watch, fits Whaley's margin of error and at this time he took a passenger from the right location and delivered his customer to the right location, just beyond Oswald's rooming house. The chances that another random passenger went from the right location to the same area where Oswald lived at the right time is astronomical.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1nr39p9/Whaley-timesheet.jpg)
Btw have you worked out yet how Oswald got to the Rooming House by about 1pm and can you provide a plausible alternative and can you explain why you are so obsessed with disproving a journey which gets you no closer to disproving Oswald's guilt? Maybe Oswald was transported Star Trek style, Beam me up Scotty?! Hehehe!
JohnM
Great post.
Not a massive surprise no-one has challenged it and even less of a surprise that those who disagree won't supply an alternative mode of transport.
As for an explanation why "they" would fake a bus ride and a taxi ride...
You always seem to arrive late.
What does Whaley's manifest tell you?
Take your time.
The record shows who arrived late, but nice try, Danny.
Most criminals make mistakes, especially when they are in a hurry.
Hint: which came first, the bus ride or the cab ride?
Thanks Dan, the public transport option is the one that goes toward supporting Oswald's innocence and I can't understand why CT's fight so hard to refute it??
JohnM
You always seem to arrive late.
What does Whaley's manifest tell you?
Take your time.
You're obviously struggling with both the bus ride and the cab ride.
I offered you free advise to at least get you moving and you start As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'ing!
Are you really expecting me to spoon feed you every piece of evidence in the case?
I have no problem with Oswald taking the bus, abandoning it, then getting a cab.
I believe that's how he got to the rooming house.
It's you who's struggling with Oswald's movements. I have a vague memory you believe something really wacky but I can't remember what it is, just that you didn't have the balls to openly state it and someone else had to do it for you.
The word you're looking for is "advice".
Feel free to keep any advice you're offering to yourself
You've never spoon fed me any evidence. Ever.
You never answer a direct question or deal with any issue raised that you can't explain.
What does Whaley's manifest tell you?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1nr39p9/Whaley-timesheet.jpg)
This is how you answer a direct question.
Looking at the above manifest, in particular entry #14, the first thing to notice is the "P" in the left hand column. This indicates the fare was a 'pick-up'. 8 of Whaley's fares that day were 'pick-ups' and 13 were 'calls'. If the passenger was Oswald fleeing the TSBD we would expect him to be a 'pick up'.
The next relevant column tells us the pick-up point was 'Greyhound'. This is a reference to the Greyhound bus station at 207 Lamar Street. Whaley was parked on Lamar close to Jackson. He spotted 'Oswald' approaching south on Lamar. This is the direction we would expect Oswald to be approaching from if he'd abandoned the bus on Elm St.
The next column tells us the destination was '500 No. Beckley', the 500 block on North Beckley Avenue (note no specific house number is given). This is the street Oswald lives on, so the fare travels from close to the TSBD to close to 1026 North Beckley. This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.
The next column reports the fare as 95 cents (incorrectly reported as 85 cents by Fritz)
The next column indicates it was a single passenger as we would expect if it was Oswald.
The next two columns record the time picked up and dropped off. It must be noted that all the figures in these two columns are estimations. This is clear by the fact all the numbers are rounded up to either 5 or 0. The 8 fares between 11:00am and 2:45pm are all given in 15 minute blocks. This tallies with Whaley's account of not using a watch and estimating his times. The best we can say is that Whaley picks up this fare somewhere between 12:30pm and 12:45pm. As we would expect if it was Oswald after abandoning the bus.
The next two columns indicate that the distance travelled was 3 miles. All the figures in these columns are also rounded up. The actual distance of the trip is 2.6 miles and takes around 7 minutes.
There is nothing in Whaley's manifest that is inconsistent with the account of Oswald catching a cab after abandoning the bus.
The question is - why would anyone want to fake the bus ride and cab ride? What's the point? Why not just fake one or the other?
And if you believe they are fake then how did he get to the rooming house?
Outstanding post Dan. Don't hold your breath on getting any reasoned response. It has always amazed me how CTers struggle against the bus to nowhere and cab ride. Imagine the difficulties and risks to the conspirators to fake all this. And why fake both a bus and cab ride? It makes no sense as a planned event as it achieves nothing from a conspirator's viewpoint but introduces a great deal of complexity. How do they know, for example, which bus and cab are in the area? How do they convince random bus passengers and a cab driver to lie or at least not to blow the whole story by contradicting it? And on and on. And that doesn't even get into Oswald himself admitting it.
I have no problem with Oswald taking the bus, abandoning it, then getting a cab.
I believe that's how he got to the rooming house.
It's you who's struggling with Oswald's movements. I have a vague memory you believe something really wacky but I can't remember what it is, just that you didn't have the balls to openly state it and someone else had to do it for you.
The word you're looking for is "advice".
Feel free to keep any advice you're offering to yourself
You've never spoon fed me any evidence. Ever.
You never answer a direct question or deal with any issue raised that you can't explain.
What does Whaley's manifest tell you?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1nr39p9/Whaley-timesheet.jpg)
This is how you answer a direct question.
Looking at the above manifest, in particular entry #14, the first thing to notice is the "P" in the left hand column. This indicates the fare was a 'pick-up'. 8 of Whaley's fares that day were 'pick-ups' and 13 were 'calls'. If the passenger was Oswald fleeing the TSBD we would expect him to be a 'pick up'.
The next relevant column tells us the pick-up point was 'Greyhound'. This is a reference to the Greyhound bus station at 207 Lamar Street. Whaley was parked on Lamar close to Jackson. He spotted 'Oswald' approaching south on Lamar. This is the direction we would expect Oswald to be approaching from if he'd abandoned the bus on Elm St.
The next column tells us the destination was '500 No. Beckley', the 500 block on North Beckley Avenue (note no specific house number is given). This is the street Oswald lives on, so the fare travels from close to the TSBD to close to 1026 North Beckley. This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.
The next column reports the fare as 95 cents (incorrectly reported as 85 cents by Fritz)
The next column indicates it was a single passenger as we would expect if it was Oswald.
The next two columns record the time picked up and dropped off. It must be noted that all the figures in these two columns are estimations. This is clear by the fact all the numbers are rounded up to either 5 or 0. The 8 fares between 11:00am and 2:45pm are all given in 15 minute blocks. This tallies with Whaley's account of not using a watch and estimating his times. The best we can say is that Whaley picks up this fare somewhere between 12:30pm and 12:45pm. As we would expect if it was Oswald after abandoning the bus.
The next two columns indicate that the distance travelled was 3 miles. All the figures in these columns are also rounded up. The actual distance of the trip is 2.6 miles and takes around 7 minutes.
There is nothing in Whaley's manifest that is inconsistent with the account of Oswald catching a cab after abandoning the bus.
The question is - why would anyone want to fake the bus ride and cab ride? What's the point? Why not just fake one or the other?
And if you believe they are fake then how did he get to the rooming house?
As much as I'm enjoying reading all the posts in this thread is anyone actually going to come up with an explanation of how Oswald got from Dealey Plaza to his Rooming House in less than half an hour if the bus and taxi ride combo is actually nonsense?
Very Well, Mr Mytoe.... It is a recorded FACT that Whaley said that the man whom he transported to Oakcliff was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers that matched the BLUE Jacket.
Lee went to his room at 1:00pm at the rooming house and changed his clothes Those items of clothing were found in the dresser where Lee told the interrogators he had placed them. Detective Potts recorded the items that they found in Lee's room ..... Potts recorded that the shirt was a REDDISH BROWN, long sleeve shirt, with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR. There was NO BLUE clothing found in Lee's room...And there was NO JACKET ....
Clearly , Whaley's passenger was NOT Lee Oswald.
Clearly it wasn't Oswald...even though Whaley actually identified Oswald in the police line up as being the passenger he took to Oakcliffe?
Are you basically insinuating that Whaley was incapable of making a reliable positive ID of his passenger when face to face with him in a line up but when it came to getting a definitive and accurate description of what he was wearing hours earlier there's absolutely no possibility of him making a mistake?
::)
A few things Walt,
Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.
Look at all of the times Whaley records in his manifest, there are all rounded figures ending in 5 or 0. Many of his fares are recorded in 15 minute blocks. any buffoon can see they are estimations, just as Whaley says they are. They are not to be treated with the precision you give them. This is so obvious.
Look at the times and ask yourself if they represent the actual times he picked people up and dropped them off.
Just because Whaley was at the bus station at 12:30pm doesn't mean he picked up Oswald at this time.
Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.
Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.
I've never said that the man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET was picked up at precisely 12:30..... Whaley said that he was at the Greyhound bus depot at 12:30. He decided he needed a package of cigarettes, so he got out of his cab and was about to go inside the depot to buy a pack of cigarettes when the young man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET approached and asked if he could hire the taxi.
That time could have been as late as 12:35..... But it makes no difference ....because Lee was still at the TSBD at that time and he was NOT wearing a BLUE JACKET.
Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.
I've never said that the man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET was picked up at precisely 12:30..... Whaley said that he was at the Greyhound bus depot at 12:30. He decided he needed a package of cigarettes, so he got out of his cab and was about to go inside the depot to buy a pack of cigarettes when the young man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET approached and asked if he could hire the taxi.
That time could have been as late as 12:35..... But it makes no difference ....because Lee was still at the TSBD at that time and he was NOT wearing a BLUE JACKET.
...Many of his fares are recorded in 15 minute blocks. any buffoon can see they are estimations, just as Whaley says they are. They are not to be treated with the precision you give them. This is so obvious....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
...Mr. BALL - But, before you go into that, I notice you have been reading from some notes before you.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, because I forget what I have to say.
Mr. BALL - When did you make those notes?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - What day did I make them?
Miss DOUTHIT - When Mr. Sorrels and I were talking about her going to Washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down on paper because she might forget something, and I said, "Mary, you put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she started making notes.
Mr. BALL - You have made the notes in the last week?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Miss DOUTHIT - At my suggestion and Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. BALL - You didn't make any notes during the week he was there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; I didn't pay any attention to him....
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/two-line-obituary-doesnt-do-justice-to-shadowy-r-d-matthews/
...He was born in Aspermont, Texas, on July 26, 1920. Matthews enlisted in the Marines after Pearl Harbor and was awarded a Navy Cross and Purple Heart. He is said to have inflicted more than his share of wounds in underworld wars after returning home. A member of the notorious Hollis de Lois Green gang of Texas, he was a Dallas bookmaker, nightclub manager and was known on the street as a stealthy enforcer.
Matthews was so well- acquainted with the inside players associated with the assassination of President John F. Kennedy that he rated mention in the Warren Commission Report and was interviewed at length in 1978 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. (His attorney was Binion friend and future U.S. District Judge Harry Claiborne.)...
As much as I'm enjoying reading all the posts in this thread is anyone actually going to come up with an explanation of how Oswald got from Dealey Plaza to his Rooming House in less than half an hour if the bus and taxi ride combo is actually nonsense?
Hi Vincent....In a nut shell....I believe that Bill Whaley was a big BSer....... He started BSing his fellow cabbies about how he had transported the killer just minutes after he'd shot the President. It was all BS.... Whaley did in fact transport a young man to 500 N. Beckley but it was NOT Lee Oswald. He said the man was dressed in a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.... That was NOT how Lee was dressed. He never realized that his dispatcher would call the police and notify them that one of the drivers had transported Lee Oswald just minutes after the assassination.
Thanks Richard.
Because I find it difficult to believe Oswald acted alone I am a CTer by default, which I find quite embarrassing as I'm lumped in with the nutjobs pretending to find the "truth" but who are in fact propping up their fragile egos.
Outstanding post Dan.
Coming from you, we know what that means.
Don't hold your breath on getting any reasoned response.
Not that it would make any difference, response posted.
It has always amazed me how CTers struggle against the bus to nowhere and cab ride.
No struggle required, you failed again.
Imagine the difficulties and risks to the conspirators to fake all this.
What risks?
And why fake both a bus and cab ride? It makes no sense as a planned event as it achieves nothing from a conspirator's viewpoint but introduces a great deal of complexity.
Who claimed they were planned events, you fail again.
How do they know, for example, which bus and cab are in the area?
Before the fact they didn't so WTF are you babbling about?
How do they convince random bus passengers and a cab driver to lie or at least not to blow the whole story by contradicting it?
Well they blew it, now what?
And on and on.
We know how your ramblings keep coming, week after week.
And that doesn't even get into Oswald himself admitting it.
"it" -- ROFL
You must have missed my earlier post, let me repost it here.
The line of argument that we can just dismiss an eyewitness because of a clothing discrepancy is absurd, from the time we are babies we first learn to recognise faces, like our mothers and fathers and as we continue to age when we first see someone we look at their face to gauge, attractiveness, emotion, etc, as they say, you make a good first impression by smiling and what a person is wearing comes a distant second, our fashion choices don't define who we are.
For example I went shopping at the local corner shop yesterday and I definitely know who served me and if I had to, I could say without reservation that that person was the one who packaged my bread and milk but if I had to recall their clothes then I simply couldn't because I had no reason to remember, much like Whaley who only remembered Oswald's bracelet because he made similar jewellery and seeing Oswald's shiny bracelet was of interest, but otherwise Oswald was just another customer.
In the following image is shown the man wearing BLACK who in and around Port Arthur killed 35 people and many eyewitnesses were face to face with this mass murderer and positively identified him and later this same man admitted to the crime.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsHPB442/Martin-Bryant-at-Port-Arthur.jpg)
These eyewitnesses all positively identified the same man and understandably have differing memories on the clothing colour but if we use the same criteria of throwing out eyewitnesses because of a silly colour discrepancy then we'd still have a mass murderer on the loose. And this highlights the problem with rabid JFKA CT's, outside this single case, they have no real life experience!
Name of Witness: DUTTON Christian Names: James David brown jacket
Name of Witness: KINGSTON Christian Names: Ian Gregory green jacket
Name of Witness: BEEKMAN Christian Names: Michael Dean ski type jacket, blue, orange and a few other colours on it
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Colin Sydney 3/4 length jacket, dark in appearance
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Iris Emelia He had on a jacket of some description.
Name of Witness: SARGENT Christian Names: Michael Robert blue jacket
Name of Witness: RIVIERE Christian Names: John Michael “High length’ black jacket
Name of Witness: OLSON Christian Names: MARY LEE I think was green
Name of Witness: LEVER Cristian Names: Coralee Helen dark jacket
Name of Witness: NASH Christian Names: Carolyn Louise khaki green jacket or parker type jacket
Name of Witness: BALASKO Christian Names: James black jacket
Name of Witness: McKENNA Christian Names: Rebecca Kate ski type jacket which was zipped all the way up. it was either navy, blue or grey.
JohnM
Once the bus transfer was in evidence there was no way out of Plan A, so they had to throw in Plan B (Whaley) after the bus ride.
The WC had to suck it up and move on no matter how ludicrous their timeline looked.
Thumb1:
All of the above is irrelevant, Johnny...... Because the fact remains ...Whaley clearly told Mr Ball that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.
There are two characteristics of the man's clothing that Whaley described that do NOT fit the clothes that Lee Oswald was wearing. Lee was NOT wearing a JACKET , he was wearing a dark brown shirt, and his trousers were dark grey. The man was sitting next to Whaley on the passenger side of the seat, so Whaley would definitely have gott a good look at the color of the man's trousers....and he told Mr Ball the man's trousers were BLUE.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TCMTSsHPcaI/AAAAAAAAEYw/DjG4OXajPpU/s1600/CE162--Oswald+Gray+Jacket.jpg) | (https://i.pinimg.com/474x/a3/08/f1/a308f18185d0e97a20dccc82b60a416d.jpg) |
Once the bus transfer was in evidence there was no way out of Plan A, so they had to throw in Plan B (Whaley) after the bus ride.
The WC had to suck it up and move on no matter how ludicrous their timeline looked.
Thumb1:
The WC timeline is guesswork.
They don't know how quickly Oswald was moving or how long he was on the bus for etc.
They're just guessing.
Whaley is also guessing when he fills in the times on his manifest. One look at the times he fills in tells you that.
All the times end in a 5 or a 0 and many of them are done in 15 minutes blocks no matter how long the trip took.
This is all there in his manifest.
Do you believe those times are accurate? (of course you do)
So now you've invented the BusCab Hoax and are touting it as if its a real thing. Yet you don't have to prove anything about it.
But who invented the Hoax?
How many people are involved in it?
How did they choose McWatters and Whaley?
What about Whaley's superiors?
What about the old lady who tried to get in the cab? Couldn't she be traced?
What about the witnesses on the bus? Are they in on it?
But here's the one question you should answer if you're going to answer any about your invention -
Why create the BusCab Hoax in the first place?
You didn't mention Whaley was describing the man's clothes from a block away.
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him.
Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?
Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street.
Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down?
Mr. WHALEY. Lamar.
Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar?
Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street?
Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street.
Mr. BALL. South on Lamar?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.
Now it's important what Whaley saw about the man's clothing when he was near him: "Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, you notice things like that." and ...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Shirt_Lee_Harvey_Oswald_Was_Wearing_when_Arrested_-_NARA_-_305139_%28page_1%29.gif/1025px-Shirt_Lee_Harvey_Oswald_Was_Wearing_when_Arrested_-_NARA_-_305139_%28page_1%29.gif)
Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does that look like the shirt?
Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it.
Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify.
Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar and Jackson?
Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, light-colored stripe. I noticed that.
Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that.(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TCMTSsHPcaI/AAAAAAAAEYw/DjG4OXajPpU/s1600/CE162--Oswald+Gray+Jacket.jpg) (https://i.pinimg.com/474x/a3/08/f1/a308f18185d0e97a20dccc82b60a416d.jpg)
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. WHALEY. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. BALL. Look something like it?
And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?
Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one.
Whaley seems pretty unsure on that point. Remember his earlier comments didn't include the "jacket". Here he seems to be calling the shirt a "jacket":
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.
Why create the BusCab Hoax in the first place?
Let's pretend.... That Lee thought that he was participating in a hoax that was intended to make it appear that he had fired at JFK. Let's say that the conspirators who were playing him for a sucker told him that they would have a Light colored Rambler Station wagon ready to pick him up and whisk him away from the scene of the ATTEMPTED assassination. And if you believe Roger Craig, that's exactly what happened....
The conspirators certainly would not have wanted to be connected to their patsy, Lee Oswald, and witnesses with cameras could easily have recorded Lee's departure in that US government Rambler Station Wagon ....Thus they would have been prepared to provide an alternate means for the patsy to have left the scene. And the patsy would have played along with that ruse......
I have a question that has bugged me for years.... Roger Craig said that he heard a sharp loud whistle just before the young man ran down the slope and jumped into the light colored Rambler.
My Question:... Was Lee in the habit of whistling to get someone's attention. Many men ( and some women) are very good at producing a shrill blast when they want to get somebody's attention..... Was Lee Oswald one of those people?
I know that I'll regret asking this question, but why would the conspirators who are trying to frame Oswald for the crime provide him with a get away car to escape the crime scene? And thus, risk being seen by someone (in fact that is exactly what you are claiming) and then have the added difficulty of planning an elaborate bus AND cab ride story to cover this inexplicable decision with all that entails (i.e. somehow knowing which bus and cab was in the area and convincing all the random folks on the bus not to blow the story and on and on). Faking the bus and cab ride is very silly and risky for no apparent purpose. Particularly for someone trying to frame Oswald rather than assist him.
And if Whaley is part of the BusCab Hoax why is he giving information that contradicts the timeline the hoaxers are trying to establish?
Hasn't he been coached what to say?
There's no doubt that Whaley is part of the Bus/Cab tale...... He unwittingly got himself involved when he started bragging to his fellow cabbies about how he unknowingly had transported the killer to Oakcliff just minutes after the shooting.
If he'd been smart he would have immediately recanted and told the police that he'd just been BSin his buddies, when the police arrived and wanted to know about the event. But Whaley wasn't very bright and continued to tell the story about how he'd picked up the man at the Greyhound buss depot and delivered him to the 500 block of Beckley.
You didn't mention Whaley was describing the man's clothes from a block away.
Yer right I didn't mention that Whaley was describing the man's clothing from a block away. And the reason I didn't is because that argument is totally absurd.... At least it is to an intelligent and rational person.... Can you tell me how Whaley would have known that the man wanted to hire his cab when the man was a block away and merely walking along the sidewalk?? Perhaps the guy had cell phone and phoned Whaley??
I know that I'll regret asking this question, but why would the conspirators who are trying to frame Oswald for the crime provide him with a get away car to escape the crime scene? And thus, risk being seen by someone (in fact that is exactly what you are claiming) and then have the added difficulty of planning an elaborate bus AND cab ride story to cover this inexplicable decision with all that entails (i.e. somehow knowing which bus and cab was in the area and convincing all the random folks on the bus not to blow the story and on and on). Faking the bus and cab ride is very silly and risky for no apparent purpose. Particularly for someone trying to frame Oswald rather than assist him.
Whaley meant the man he saw from a distance would become his passenger. Geeze, you think the explanation was that Whaley could read what was on someone's else mind? Can't be you who's "intelligent and rational". Ever here tell of Occam's Razor?
From a distance, Whaley noticed Oswald was waking and behaving oddly. Wonder why Oswald caught his attention? Same thing might have caught Tippit's attention.
Poor Johnny, missing the mark again big time.
And then got owned by Walt.
ROFL ---------->>>>>
Name of Witness: DUTTON Christian Names: James David brown jacket
Name of Witness: KINGSTON Christian Names: Ian Gregory green jacket
Name of Witness: BEEKMAN Christian Names: Michael Dean ski type jacket, blue, orange and a few other colours on it
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Colin Sydney 3/4 length jacket, dark in appearance
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Iris Emelia He had on a jacket of some description.
Name of Witness: SARGENT Christian Names: Michael Robert blue jacket
Name of Witness: RIVIERE Christian Names: John Michael “High length’ black jacket
Name of Witness: OLSON Christian Names: MARY LEE I think was green
Name of Witness: LEVER Cristian Names: Coralee Helen dark jacket
Name of Witness: NASH Christian Names: Carolyn Louise khaki green jacket or parker type jacket
Name of Witness: BALASKO Christian Names: James black jacket
Name of Witness: McKENNA Christian Names: Rebecca Kate ski type jacket which was zipped all the way up. it was either navy, blue or grey.
Let's pretend....
There's no doubt that Whaley is part of the Bus/Cab tale......
I'm well aware of what I posted and I'm also well aware of what Officer Baker saw Oswald wearing and we know that this same man was identified by Truly as being Oswald.
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out.
Oswald's oversized brown shirt when hanging out looks very much like a Jacket.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0XkcYzH/Osw-ald-arrest-brown-shirt.jpg)
And here's Oswald with his smirk all over his face and I'm sure that someone who's innocent would find a need to smirk and this is the guy you want to defend, shame on you both.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tnJGujMuv1s/UOkqVcrU9dI/AAAAAAAAAjk/-8IqEp2USck/s1600/lee+oswald+lho+retouched+with+smirk.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJLNfR4v/Oswald-smirk.jpg)
smirk
smile in an irritatingly smug, conceited, or silly way.
"he smirked in triumph"
smirk
a silly and unpleasant smile that shows that you are pleased with yourself, know something that other people do not know, etc.
She had a self-satisfied smirk on her face.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/smirk_2
The first impression that Whaley had when he saw Oswald walk slowly up to his the cab was that he was a wino, which strongly suggests that when Whaley saw Oswald his shirt was similarly hanging out like when Baker saw him.
Btw have you figured out how Oswald got to the rooming house yet? LOL!
Oswald's oversized brown shirt when hanging out looks very much like a Jacket.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0XkcYzH/Osw-ald-arrest-brown-shirt.jpg)
Duh Mr M....If yer gonna post a picture to support your statement, at least display a picture that shows Lee wearing the same shirt that he was wearing at the TSBD that morning. The picture that you've posted shows the shirt that Lee was wearing at the time of his arrest.
I'm well aware of what I posted and I'm also well aware of what Officer Baker saw Oswald wearing and we know that this same man was identified by Truly as being Oswald.
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out.
Oswald's oversized brown shirt when hanging out looks very much like a Jacket.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0XkcYzH/Osw-ald-arrest-brown-shirt.jpg)
And here's Oswald with his smirk all over his face and I'm sure that someone who's innocent would find a need to smirk and this is the guy you want to defend, shame on you both.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tnJGujMuv1s/UOkqVcrU9dI/AAAAAAAAAjk/-8IqEp2USck/s1600/lee+oswald+lho+retouched+with+smirk.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJLNfR4v/Oswald-smirk.jpg)
smirk
smile in an irritatingly smug, conceited, or silly way.
"he smirked in triumph"
smirk
a silly and unpleasant smile that shows that you are pleased with yourself, know something that other people do not know, etc.
She had a self-satisfied smirk on her face.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/smirk_2
The first impression that Whaley had when he saw Oswald walk slowly up to his the cab was that he was a wino, which strongly suggests that when Whaley saw Oswald his shirt was similarly hanging out like when Baker saw him.
Btw have you figured out how Oswald got to the rooming house yet? LOL!
I'm also well aware of what Officer Baker saw Oswald wearing
Would this be the 35 year old,
When will you and your buddies stop running and explain how Oswald in half an hour got to his rooming house and how this alternate form of transport helps Oswald's "innocence"?
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvmFzFHx/well-waiting.gif)
JohnM
Ok, I'll answer your questions, .....
"35 year old"
Can't you get anything right?
The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Oswald's receding hair line makes him look like an old man.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85R8TbcN/Oswald-receding-hairline.jpg)
JohnM
Ok, I'll answer your questions, but first You need to explain how Whaley saw Lee Oswald approaching the bus station and his cab at 12:30. Lee was still back at the TSBD at 12:32...... And I believe the WC decided hat Lee would have been approaching the bus station at 12:47., after getting off Mc Watter's bus. And we know that Whaley had dropped his passenger at 500 N. Beckley at 12:45....That's two minutes prior to the time the WC said that Lee arrived at the bus station.
Are you sure you don't want to think a bit more about your tale?
It took 100 pages for Mr.Mytton to suggest an alternative form of transportation might be possible so maybe he’s starting to reconsider that Oswald could have some fellow conspirator “helpers”?
Welcome Mr Mytton to the CT side of the fence! :)
Welcome Mr Mytton to the CT side of the fence! :)
"...but first You need to explain how Whaley saw Lee Oswald approaching the bus station and his cab at 12:30."
If Whaley was part of the BusCab Hoax it's you who needs to explain why he said he saw Oswald at 12:30pm!
What kind of a hoax is this when Whaley is undermining the timeline he is supposed to be hoaxing??
How can you believe in such a sh*t hoax?
I don’t see anyway around the CE 163 BLUE jacket left in the Domino room problem other than to suggest it’s a false story by Mr. Kaiser.
How does Mr Data ( aka Mytton) resolve this other than that Whaley is color blind?
Scary to watch two decades of cognitive decay unfold!
First were have this "pretty good match"...
The day after in Whaley's signed and corrected affidavit, he describes a small 5'8" slender man wearing a dark shirt with white spots and wearing a Bracelet on his left wrist, a pretty good match.
But, there are no white spots with no reason to remember them...
Oswald's dark shirt doesn't have white spots but it does have patches of a lighter shade and considering that Whaley had no reason to specifically remember any details at all about this random passenger,
Then earlier we had this argument that witnesses were entirely unreliable when recalling details of clothing...
For example I went shopping at the local corner shop yesterday and I definitely know who served me and if I had to, I could say without reservation that that person was the one who packaged my bread and milk but if I had to recall their clothes then I simply couldn't because I had no reason to remember, much like Whaley who only remembered Oswald's bracelet because he made similar jewellery and seeing Oswald's shiny bracelet was of interest, but otherwise Oswald was just another customer.
Leading us to the conclusion...
Overall with the above observations, it's a pretty close identification.
Can you get much higher on the scale of LN stupidity?
BTW, how may young men wore a bracelet in Dallas in 1963?
it's you who needs to explain why he said he saw Oswald at 12:30pm!
The explanation is obvious.... Whaley DID NOT see Lee Oswald dressed n a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers at 12:30 ....He saw another man but morphed that man into Lee Oswald. Whaley simply lied to try to get his fellow cabbies attention. We know that Lee was at the TSBD at 12:32, so he could not have been the man who Whaley transported to 500 N. Beckley.
Looks like we have a little sub-thread going, should be fun!
the fake manifest.
Do point out which parts are faked, thanks.
No problem, Walt Thumb1:
BALL caught Fritz out:
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?
Mr. FRITZ. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have it here?
Mr. BALL. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men.
Mr. FRITZ. Some of my officers.
Mr. BALL. He is a deputy sheriff.
Mr. FRITZ. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.
Mr. BALL. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a colored man.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that is true.
Mr. BALL. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember the witness; yes, sir.
Another dumb mistake by Fritz trying to BS his way out. In the very beginning of an investigation you don't dismiss leads like that unless......
The WC timeline is guesswork.
They don't know how quickly Oswald was moving or how long he was on the bus for etc.
They're just guessing.
Some pretty bold statements coming from a Nutter!
Luckily the WC provided us with a nice overview of Oswald's (alleged) movements on page 158 of their report:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0091b.htm
Why don't you give us your revised times at each numbered location that fit the evidence?
Take your time!
From the Myttonian bump pile:
Apart from the time being wrong and locations being questionable (if it was Oswald) and not using a watch on trip #14 debunked, let's have the numbers that make the chances turn astronomical and we'll al have a good laugh, OK?
You have a serious comprehension problem, this is how it works:
I assume the manifest is real until I see evidense of it being fake.
Now is your chance to back up your claim that the manifest is fake.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0091b.htm
Why don't you give us your revised times at each numbered location that fit the evidence?
Hi Otto, Don't hold your breath while awaiting a response.... You've got em cornered.... now listen to em cry.
12:33pm Oswald leaves TSBD
12:39pm Oswald boards bus at Griffin and Elm
12:42pm Oswald gets off bus
12;45pm Oswald gets in cab
"You've got em cornered..."
Speaking of which Walt...
you constantly assert Whaley saw Oswald at 12:30pm yet in his FBI report it is stated:
"A few minutes earlier he had begun to hear sirens and noticed a few blocks away that people were running about excitedly."
Whaley heard sirens and noticed people running around a few minutes before he saw Oswald coming down the street.
How do you explain this?
Take your time.
12:33pm Oswald leaves TSBD
12:39pm Oswald boards bus at Griffin and Elm
12:42pm Oswald gets off bus
12;45pm Oswald gets in cab
"You've got em cornered..."
Speaking of which Walt...
you constantly assert Whaley saw Oswald at 12:30pm yet in his FBI report it is stated:
"A few minutes earlier he had begun to hear sirens and noticed a few blocks away that people were running about excitedly."
Whaley heard sirens and noticed people running around a few minutes before he saw Oswald coming down the street.
How do you explain this?
Take your time.
No problem, Walt Thumb1:
BALL caught Fritz out:
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?
Mr. FRITZ. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have it here?
Mr. BALL. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men.
Mr. FRITZ. Some of my officers.
Mr. BALL. He is a deputy sheriff.
Mr. FRITZ. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.
Mr. BALL. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a colored man.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that is true.
Mr. BALL. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember the witness; yes, sir.
Another dumb mistake by Fritz trying to BS his way out. In the very beginning of an investigation you don't dismiss leads like that unless......
Quote me saying the cab ride was fake.
WTF is wrong with your head?
"A few minutes earlier he had begun to hear sirens and noticed a few blocks away that people were running about excitedly."
At around 12:25 , Whaley had seen the people who were lining Main street to see JFK.... "running around excitedly" and jostling for positions to see the President and Jackie......
So you're saying the motorcade had sirens going before the assassination?
"stance" -- LOL
Your frantic copy-pasting didn't catch a single "fake" because your rotten memory forgot all about who posted "fake" in reply #68 when you showed up late and made a fool of yourself.
Whaley's ride was quite real but the timeline precludes Oswald from being his passenger, tough luck.
"stance" -- LOL
Your frantic copy-pasting didn't catch a single "fake" because your rotten memory forgot all about who posted "fake" in reply #68 when you showed up late and made a fool of yourself.
Whaley's ride was quite real but the timeline precludes Oswald from being his passenger, tough luck.
When the man departed Whaley's taxi he handed Whaley a dollar bill and told him to keep the change, The man then crossed over to the east side of Beckley and started walking south on the east side ob Beckley. ( He was walking AWAY from the rooming house at 10 26 N. Beckley)
Thumb1:
One will notice that this observation by Whaley in written statements is never underlined by the Nutters.
Surprise?
Depends on what exactly you mean by "Oswald's cab ride" and "fake".
Unclear what "fake" entails, see above.
Irrelevant once it was in evidence.
It didn't at the time they introduced it.
Officially he found them, indirectly, but there are conflicting reports.
Unknown, based on the available evidence
Depends on what exactly you mean by "Oswald's cab ride" and "fake".
I doubt you have a clue what you're trying to establish.
Unclear what "fake" entails, see above.
Irrelevant once it was in evidence.
It didn't at the time they introduced it.
Officially he found them, indirectly, but there are conflicting reports.
Did anyone tell you otherwise?
Unknown, based on the available evidence
"Looking at it the other way - why would the hoaxers use Whaley if he was undermining the story they were trying to invent?"
Ask them.
Hi Otto, Perhaps you can help me find a piece of information.....
I was thumbing through the WR and I read Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley's report of 11-23-63..(Page 626 WR)
Quote: " Fritz asked him if he had ridden a taxi that day, and Oswald then changed his story and said that when he got on the bus he found that it was going too slow, and after two blocks he got off the bus and took a cab to his home. He passed the time with the cab driver and the cab driver had told him that the president was shot. He paid a cab fare of 85 cents. " Unquote
He passed the time with the cab driver and the cab driver had told him that the president was shot.
This driver knew that JFK had been shot....Whereas Bill whaley had no clue about what was happening.... He said that he asked his passenger who was wearing a BLUE JACKET " What's all the sirens about" And his passenger didn't respond, or answer the question.
Two things leap out at me.... First off .... Lee said that his cab driver told him that JFK had been shot.... (Something that Bill Whaley didn't know)
And secondly Whaley said that his passenger was not talkative.....Whereas Lee said that he and the cab driver talked as they rode along.
Lee also told Kelley that he took a cab to his home ( not a half mile past his home) and he paid the driver 85 cents. 85 cents would have been the correct fare from the bus station to the intersection of Zangs and Beckley.
PS ....Perhaps you can help me find a piece of information..... I believe that Lee told one of the interrogators that he took a bus to the theater....But I haven't been able to verify this.
How do you think Oswald got to his rooming house after leaving the TSBD Walt?
How do you think Oswald got to his rooming house after leaving the TSBD Walt?
Don't expect an answer anytime this century, this is the very meat and potatoes of my thread question, the reason they are so obsessed with disproving the bus and cab rides is that they can't move forward because they are stuck in a classic "KookLoop", they lack the deductive reasoning skills to formulate an alternative so they just keep repeating the same nonsense again and again and again, since their very first posts they ignore all the powerful evidence presented as refutation and still haven't moved forward one iota.
This discussion will never get off first base and for some reason these ignorant "researchers" are happy to just stay there and pretend that they are Defence Lawyers so as to continually create chaos and achieve nothing.
JohnM
What does Whaley's manifest tell you?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1nr39p9/Whaley-timesheet.jpg)
This is how you answer a direct question.
Looking at the above manifest, in particular entry #14, the first thing to notice is the "P" in the left hand column. This indicates the fare was a 'pick-up'. 8 of Whaley's fares that day were 'pick-ups' and 13 were 'calls'. If the passenger was Oswald fleeing the TSBD we would expect him to be a 'pick up'.
The next relevant column tells us the pick-up point was 'Greyhound'. This is a reference to the Greyhound bus station at 207 Lamar Street. Whaley was parked on Lamar close to Jackson. He spotted 'Oswald' approaching south on Lamar. This is the direction we would expect Oswald to be approaching from if he'd abandoned the bus on Elm St.
The next column tells us the destination was '500 No. Beckley', the 500 block on North Beckley Avenue (note no specific house number is given). This is the street Oswald lives on, so the fare travels from close to the TSBD to close to 1026 North Beckley. This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.
The next column reports the fare as 95 cents (incorrectly reported as 85 cents by Fritz)
The next column indicates it was a single passenger as we would expect if it was Oswald.
The next two columns record the time picked up and dropped off. It must be noted that all the figures in these two columns are estimations. This is clear by the fact all the numbers are rounded up to either 5 or 0. The 8 fares between 11:00am and 2:45pm are all given in 15 minute blocks. This tallies with Whaley's account of not using a watch and estimating his times. The best we can say is that Whaley picks up this fare somewhere between 12:30pm and 12:45pm. As we would expect if it was Oswald after abandoning the bus.
The next two columns indicate that the distance travelled was 3 miles. All the figures in these columns are also rounded up. The actual distance of the trip is 2.6 miles and takes around 7 minutes.
There is nothing in Whaley's manifest that is inconsistent with the account of Oswald catching a cab after abandoning the bus.
The question is - why would anyone want to fake the bus ride and cab ride? What's the point? Why not just fake one or the other?
And if you believe they are fake then how did he get to the rooming house?
Don't expect an answer anytime this century, this is the very meat and potatoes of my thread question, the reason they are so obsessed with disproving the bus and cab rides is that they can't move forward because they are stuck in a classic "KookLoop", they lack the deductive reasoning skills to formulate an alternative so they just keep repeating the same nonsense again and again and again, since their very first posts they ignore all the powerful evidence presented as refutation and still haven't moved forward one iota.
This discussion will never get off first base and for some reason these ignorant "researchers" are happy to just stay there and pretend that they are Defence Lawyers so as to continually create chaos and achieve nothing.
JohnM
Psssst Johnny.... Did you just wake up from your nappy?..... I've already answered Dan's question.....Just wipe the stuff from your eyes and read my posts....
This case is rife with discrepancy, inconsistency and contradiction. Witnesses can be unreliable, forgetful, plain stupid, fearful of authority and any other number of human fallibilities. The investigation and subsequent enquiry are fraught with unbelievable incompetence and no little corruption leading to an almost impenetrable maze of misdirection.
It is the simplest of tasks to point out this discrepancy and that contradiction and cry "conspiracy" but where all CTers fail is their inability to provide an overarching narrative that makes more sense than that of the LNers.
That is the strength of the LN position - a narrative.
Until CTers can provide an alternative narrative they are just a bunch of children whining about the details and inventing hoaxes they never have to explain.
I'm not sure that he was on Cecil Mc Watters bus....Bledsoe was mentally incompetent.. ( she may have had Altzheimers)
And Mc Watters said that he was thinking of another passenger who laughed when he told Mc Watters that JFK had been shot in the head.
But .... There is the transfer that Mc Watter's said he issued that allegedly was found in Lee's shirt pocket. But ...I do believe that Lee rode in a CITY cab from the Greyhound bus depot to the intersection of Beckley & Zangs......
That is the strength of the LN position - a narrative.
If that "narrative" was the result of a fair and balanced investigation you might have a point. Since it clearly wasn't, you haven't
I suspect there was something more sinister with Bledsoe's testimony than just mental incompetence.
I find the transfer ticket very interesting.
Why not just get off the bus and catch a cab to the rooming house?
Why get a transfer ticket unless he intended to use it at some point?
I suspect there was something more sinister with Bledsoe's testimony than just mental incompetence.
I find the transfer ticket very interesting.
Why not just get off the bus and catch a cab to the rooming house?
Why get a transfer ticket unless he intended to use it at some point?
I make the point that the investigation was both incompetent and corrupt. As was the subsequent enquiry.
The LN narrative exists whether you like it or not and you, Martin, are the classic example of a whining CTer picking over every little detail without providing an alternative explanation or a narrative of your own.
I have asked you the same question on multiple occasions and you responded with the go nowhere response of "I'll answer your question if you first answer my question" but I do see after more than a week, that 5 minutes before my post you gave an answer. Hooray.
But your answer you gave, that you believe that a cab did take Oswald to his rooming house but just not Whaley's cab is pretty funny and it makes me wonder why you fought so hard and for so long against Whaley's journey when another cab get's you no closer to proving Oswald's "innocence", and this attitude of wasting your time and simply replacing "A" with "B" to get the same result goes a long way to proving to me that you are not here to solve anything.
JohnM
That is the strength of the LN position - a narrative.It is more like the weakness of the lone assassin position is actually conjecture. For example----
If that "narrative" was the result of a fair and balanced investigation you might have a point. Since it clearly wasn't, you haven't
This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.Speculation straight from the imagination of David Belin.
you fought so hard and for so long against Whaley's journey when another cab get's you no closer to proving Oswald's "innocence"The official bus/taxi narrative does not prove Oswald's guilt either.
My Dear Johnny...You seem to be confused.... What the hell do you mean by " makes me wonder why you fought so hard and for so long against Whaley's journey" You clearly are confused. You seem to be confusing me with some other person.... I have long said that Whaley did in fact transport some young man to Oakcliff .... But that man was NOT Lee Oswald. Now extract your head and READ what I've posted.
hinky - slang : SUSPICIOUS
Where is any supporting evidence of Whaley's WWII combat award?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51403060979_3e847c54b3_b.jpg)
Why did Whaley's birth year, consistent in all records, birth, multiple US census, on his son William's 1931 birth certificate, and on his 1940 draft registration, change from 1908 to 1905 sometime after that?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51401605157_40322057c2_b.jpg)
Phillips Family History: A Brief History of the Phillips ... - Page 127 books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q=oscar+william+whaley,+dallas&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisifuig83yAhVpCTQIHZWBCPIQ_AUoAXoECAEQCw&biw=1145&bih=650)
Harry Phillips · 1935 ·
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51403148059_65c12de678_c.jpg)
Why was Whaley's son and namesake raised by his deceased mother's sister and considered her husband to be his father?
Whaley genealogy as understood by a family member,:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51401668682_00061f4e6a_b.jpg)
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157070315/
Tuesday, June 24, 1997
Rio Rancho. WHALEY William Wayne Whaley, 65, passed away unexpectedly on June 18, 1997 in Michigan while on vacation. Husband of 43 years to Dorothy; father and father-in-law of Jamy and Gregg Peevy and Bill Jr. and Dee Whaley, all of Albuquerque; son of Alice (Pat) Scales of Albuquerque. Mr. Whaley retired from Us Alamos National Ubs in 1993 after 17 years. A memorial service will be held Wednesday, 3:00 p.m. at French Mortuary, Umas Blvd. Chapel, 10500 Umas NE. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Noonday Ministry, P.O. Box 8769, Albuquerque, NM 87198 or New Mexico Boys and Girls Ranch, 6209 Hendrix NE, Albuquerque, NM 87110.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157414971/
Tuesday, October 30, 1984 Albuquerque Journal
..............
SEALES Mr. Alvin S. Seales, age 73 and a resident here 21 years, died Monday in a local hospital following an illness. He is survived by his wife, Alice; a son William W. Whaley and wife Dorothy; granddaughter Jamy Whaley; grandson, William W. Whaley Jr. and wife Nancy, all of Albuquerque; a brother Clarence L Seales and wife Ramona; sister Denme Mae Morris; sister-in-law Katie Seales; four nephews and five nieces. Mr. Seales retired from Federal A via Don Administration and was a member of the Methodist Church, Air Traffic Control Association, a veteran of WWII, and member of D.A.V. Borderland Post 10 in El Paso, TX. Services will be held Wednesday at 11.00 a.m. in the Chapel of Fitzgerald and Son Funeral Directors, 3113 Carlisle NE, with Rev. Henry Weston, officiating. Inter ment will follow in the Santa Fe National Cemetery at 1:00 p.m.
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1166607
Alice Patterson Seales Alvin S Seales
http://obits.abqjournal.com/obits/show/124388
Published on: Fri January 29, 1999
..............
Seales -- Alice (Pat) Seales, passed away Wednesday morning, January 27, 1999, at Sunrise Mission Manor Care and Rehabilitation. She was 91 years old. She was preceded in death by her husband, Alvin S. Seales; and her son, William Whaley. She is survived by her daughter-in-law, Dorothy Whaley; and grandchildren, Jamy Peevy and her husband, Gregg, Bill Whaley and his wife, Dee. Memorial services will take place at a later date. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Sandia Hospice, 4775 Indian School Rd. NE, Suite 310, Albuquerque, NM 87110.
Walt, RE your PS, what you state is in the report by Kelley you refer to (page 626), top of second paragraph. I haven't seen bus-to-theater told elsewhere....or I might have misunderstood your question.
Looks like it would be easy enough to throw CTers/JAQers/OAKers/HSDOers off-the-scent by simply heading off in a direction opposite 1056, then pulling a (walking) U-turn asa Whaley disappears from sight.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRMVWSbG/walking-UT.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVssSKK0/tinytiny-Slam-Logo.png)
billchapman
The title of the thread describes the stories of the rather leisurely escape transport modes of "the lone assassin with a scrambled egg for a brain," as "innocent Bus and Cab rides".
Can we at least stipulate both "escape ride stories" are only as innocent as the presenters of them? In this thread I have established that Mary Bledsoe was the first cousin of RD Matthew's first cousin, "Jake" Germany, son of Bledsoe's uncle Jewell Rawlston Germany and Matthew's aunt, Adelaide Senter Germany.
In this earler post in this thread,
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3071.msg115670.html#msg115670
..I established that Matthews and Jake Germany were born about a year apart and resided in a household in 1930 that included the two boys, the two Senter sisters (Matthew's mother and her sister Adelaide, Bledsoe's aunt by marriage) and the grandmother of both boys, Ida Senter.
In 1961, the record available @Mary Ferrell archive supports that the ex-wife of RD Matthews and mother of his daughter contacted law enforcement out of concern that her teen aged daughter had gone to visit Matthews and the ex-wife was concerned Matthews would turn their own daughter out as a prostitute.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=115165#relPageId=10
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51422532272_2664b32626_b.jpg)
Considering RD Matthew's associations and reputation as an enforcer of gambling debt collection, IOW, a "bone breaker," is it not conceivable he was "pulling the strings" of the nearly incoherent "witness," Mary Bledsoe?
In the past, WC Report "custodians" posting on this forum attempted to explain away the evidence-rich observation that, sometime after 1940, taxi driver, WC witness William W. Whaley changed his d.o.b. from June 19, 1908, to June 19, 1905. If Whaley lied about that, and lied in claiming to Aynesworth that he was awarded the Navy Cross for combat activity "over Iwo Jima" in 1945, how would he not be relegated to the "circus clown" witness status of Earline Roberts of, "I had to let her go.... she is a teller of tall tales," as described in the WC testimony of Gladys Johnson, owner of the North Beckley rooming house Earline Roberts was employed in on 11/22/63 as the housekeeper?
One WCR "custodian" explained away the fact that Whaley moving his birth year from 1905 resulted in his mother, Lona Haynes Elam, being impregnated at age 15 and marrying in 1907, two years after Whaley's birth, by speculating that Whaley was in fact born in 1905 and the 1908 birth year in all Whaley related records up to and including his 1940 military draft registration record, and in the Whaley family bible and in a genealogy published in 1935 (see image, above) were to conceal Whaley's mother's shame over giving birth two years before marrying Whaley's father, Oscar?
So... my question is, who was caring for the "baby Whaley" allegedly born on June 19, 1905, while Whaley's mother was living as a typical teen ager, seven months later, in Fedruary, 1906?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/53993969/lona-haynes-whaley
Lona Haynes Elam Whaley
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth816095/m1/6/?q=%22lona%20elam%22
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51424198135_bd2b6a1aea_h.jpg)
These incidents took place just two weeks before the birth on June 19, 1908, of the William Wayne Whaley of Dallas who registered for the military draft in 1940, providing that d.o.b. to the local draft board. Lona Elam Whaley's mother died in 1903, so was absent when her father and two siblings journeyed from Shelbyville, TN to participate in family activity related to the impending birth (and after) of "the other" William Wayne Whaley!
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth816243/m1/8/?q=oscar%20whaley
June 5, 1908
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51423232311_bb9ec21a96_b.jpg)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/111783808/eliza-j-whaley
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/173/111783808_1529724802.jpg)
Walt, RE your PS, what you state is in the report by Kelley you refer to (page 626), top of second paragraph. I haven't seen bus-to-theater told elsewhere....or I might have misunderstood your question.
Walt, thanks for the tip I've put it on my list Thumb1:
Have you noticed that in none of the reports that concern Oswald's interrogations was he asked what the hell he was doing at 10th & Patton?
Really?
The Whaley journey under discussion is the one where Whaley transported Oswald but now you seem to be saying that there were two young men, both slender, both about 5'8", both wearing a shiny bracelet on their left wrist, both looked to be 25-26yo, both wearing a dark shirt, both were going to Beckley, both said a lady was trying catch a cab at the same time and they both left Dallas within minutes of each other, and you say that I'm the one who's confused? :D
(https://i.postimg.cc/T30vS120/Whaley-23rd-affidavit.jpg)
JohnM
Lee told the interrogators that after he entered the CITY cab that was driven by Darryl Glick
The day after in Whaley's signed and corrected affidavit, he describes a small 5'8" slender man wearing a dark shirt with white spots and wearing a Bracelet on his left wrist, a pretty good match.
Indeed!
Mr. BALL. Later that day did you--were you called down to the police department?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you the next day?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after I told my superior when I saw in the paper his picture, I told my superiors that that had been my passenger that day at noon. They called up the police and they came up and got me.
Mr. BALL. When you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You went to your superior and told him you thought he was your passenger?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Question! When was this photograph first published in the press?
(https://i.imgur.com/wCX03e8.jpg)
Thumb1:
Already answered in Post 135.
Please keep up. Thumb1:
Bump.
EDIT originally I posted that Whaley saw Oswald's bracelet in the cab and Oswald didn't have the bracelet on in the line-up which was one of my following pieces of evidence, but Whaley first saw a newspaper and identified Oswald to his Superior, so I checked some newspapers from the Friday and Saturday and found this photo from Lancaster PA which shows Oswald's bracelet. I couldn't find any Dallas newspapers with the same image but it's possible. And this honesty is the hallmark of us LNers, we only want the truth. A lesson that some CT's would be wise to emulate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q9yqnmL/5daa08784bc1e-image.jpg)
JohnM
Thank you, Mr Mytton, and my apologies!
The edited form of #135 is amusing btw: one reads your words "Again this evidence destroys you" AFTER said "evidence" has imploded. You would be wise to emulate your own behavior here more often, it might help you to become a serious student of the case! Thumb1:
Thank you, Mr Mytton, and my apologies!
AFTER said "evidence" has imploded.
Thumb1:
First of all it hasn't been proven that that exact photo as of yet was printed in any Dallas Newspaper and then you have to prove that if that uncropped photo was actually published in Dallas then that was the precise photo that Whaley saw(see scan below from another newspaper from another state), and secondly the Newspaper photo published in the Lancaster PA does not show a "shiny" bracelet so your premature usage of "imploded" is a little rash. Thumb1:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_pres39.jpg)
JohnM
EDIT2 I have found in the this Forum's photo gallery, another newspaper with another photo of the bracelet which does show the part of the bracelet as overexposed, but in my opinion this low res photo does not have enough definition to be seen as a definitive bracelet.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/pres37.jpg)
JohnM
~Grin~
Oh, Mr Mytton, and you were doing so well.........
As you well know, this image of Mr Oswald was already iconic, and seen by millions around the world, by the Saturday morning-------
(https://i.imgur.com/wCX03e8.jpg)
Unless you can prove that it couldn't possibly have been seen by anyone living in Dallas, then your soopah-doopah-confident claim remains DOA! Thumb1:
It can be clearly seen to be a bracelet. And I like the white spots of something on the dark (color-indeterminate) shirt!
Good work, Mr Mytton---------keep going! Thumb1:
You post a super high res photo and where do you expect that millions around the World would have seen a photo with that much definition, on TV, in a newspaper or the not yet invented "internet"? Hahaha!
Btw Whaley said in a newspaper so let's stick to proving that, k?
JohnM
It can be clearly seen to be a bracelet. And I like the white spots of something on the dark (color-indeterminate) shirt!
Good work, Mr Mytton---------keep going! Thumb1:
It can be clearly seen to be a bracelet.
Good work, Mr Mytton---------keep going! Thumb1:
Clearly?
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWq7yPwQ/1960-watch-band.jpg)
Btw Found the Dallas Newspaper with that photo yet, -------keep looking! Thumb1
JohnM
I've already shown that Mr Whaley's affidavit displays no information about Mr Oswald's appearance not already out in the public domain by that time.
I've already shown that Mr Whaley's affidavit displays no information about Mr Oswald's appearance not already out in the public domain by that time.
Whaley's affidavit does in fact have specific information not in the public domain by Saturday, like the lady trying to get in the cab
So the lady trying to get in the cab was known to authorities prior to Mr Whaley's coming forward on the Saturday?
Huh? Was the lady trying to get in Oswald's cab in the Public Domain or not? And how about the North Beckley journey, that you conveniently edited out? LMFAO!
JohnM
...
Mr. FRITZ. .... I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.
....
JohnM
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mcwatters.htm
...
Mr. BALL - Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe from the looks of this traffic you are going to be held up."
She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.
So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.
Mr. BALL - Where was that near, what intersection?
Mr. McWATTERS - It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main intersection there is Lamar Street.
Mr. BALL - He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - About 2 blocks; yes, sir. ...
Oswald's cab? You're losing it, Mr Mytton!
Now, first things first: the lady trying to get in the cab was not in the public domain, but nor was it in any domain. How exactly is this "specific information" an impressive demonstration of the veracity of Mr Whaley's story?
but nor was it in any domain.
Exactly, it was exclusive information only known to Whaley and Oswald, thanks for proving my point. Thumb1: Thumb1:
JohnM
Mr Mytton, I know what you call "proof" tends to be thin gruel, but your circular, anachronistic argument above is poor even by your standards!
Here's our chronology:
1. Mr Whaley tells the "investigating" authorities about a lady trying to get in his cab
2. AFTER this, according to the interrogation report, Mr Oswald admits to having taken a cab and confirms Mr Whaley's story about the lady
You, being a Warren Gullible, assume that Mr Oswald really said this
I, not being a Warren Gullible, advise caution with that naive assumption
And you really have no defeater for my argument--------beyond a mindless Warren Gullible assurance that "The investigating authorities would never lie, they were devoted servants of truth and justice"
In sum: As with the supah-dupah-impressive physical details you made so much of before their probative value imploded in your hands, you've got nothing here! Thumb1:
In sum: As with the supah-dupah-impressive physical details you made so much of before their probative value imploded in your hands, you've got nothing here!
Mr Mytton, I know what you call "proof" tends to be thin gruel, but your circular, anachronistic argument above is poor even by your standards!
Here's our chronology:
1. Mr Whaley tells the "investigating" authorities about a lady trying to get in his cab
2. AFTER this, according to the interrogation report, Mr Oswald admits to having taken a cab and confirms Mr Whaley's story about the lady
You, being a Warren Gullible, assume that Mr Oswald really said this
I, not being a Warren Gullible, advise caution with that naive assumption
And you really have no defeater for my argument--------beyond a mindless Warren Gullible assurance that "The investigating authorities would never lie, they were devoted servants of truth and justice"
In sum: As with the supah-dupah-impressive physical details you made so much of before their probative value imploded in your hands, you've got nothing here! Thumb1:
Clearly?
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWq7yPwQ/1960-watch-band.jpg)
Btw Found the Dallas Newspaper with that photo yet, -------keep looking! Thumb1
JohnM
So you seemingly have no answers on how Oswald got to the Texas Theatre, duly noted.
JohnM
Back to the beginning .... Johnny. I'll start out with very simple and easy to answer questions..... According to William Whaley....
A) What COLOR were the clothes that William Whaley said his passenger was wearing?
B) Did the Jacket and trousers the man was wearing match in color and fabric?
C) What color was the shirt that Lee Oswald was wearing at the TSBD that morning?
Bledsoe also recognised the shirt
ROFL
"Oswald" had left when she got on the bus.
For two(?) decades....
First of all my name is John not Johnny.
Member's must address fellow Forum members by their Forum username at all times.
Posts where members are antagonistically addressed by a name other than their Forum username, will be deleted.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2006.0.html
From Whaleys 2nd day Affidavit he said Oswald had a dark shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxrCWQxy/Whaley-23rd-affidavit.jpg)
Bledsoe recognised the shirt
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTwbggtN/Osw-aldshirt-Bledsoe.jpg)
Btw you seem to agree that Oswald caught a cab to his rooming house, so besides attacking an alleged war hero what are you trying to achieve here?
JohnM
First of all my name is John not Johnny.
Member's must address fellow Forum members by their Forum username at all times.
Posts where members are antagonistically addressed by a name other than their Forum username, will be deleted.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2006.0.html
From Whaleys 2nd day Affidavit he said Oswald had a dark shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxrCWQxy/Whaley-23rd-affidavit.jpg)
Bledsoe recognised the shirt
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTwbggtN/Osw-aldshirt-Bledsoe.jpg)
Btw you seem to agree that Oswald caught a cab to his rooming house, so besides attacking an alleged war hero what are you trying to achieve here?
JohnM
And you have been here two minutes and you still have mommies milk on your lips, when you have as much experience as me then you can be taken seriously but until then you are just an annoying child who has much to learn. Thumb1:
JohnM
And I'm absolutely sure that you're not so stupid that you don't know what I'm trying to achieve... I'm presenting evidence that shows that Bill Whaley's tale of transporting Lee Oswald to Oak Cliff is nothing but pure unadulterated BS.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/4Z5zBIv2DCo8oyAiZX/giphy.gif?cid=790b761128446a2e4880dd9e2368f573de31e7da1edbabc4&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Round and round we go and now at way over 200 posts, we have 1 CT Walt giving a lame ass excuse for doubting the official version with another equally innocent explanation? So far not one CT can come up with an alternative narrative much less an alternative that proves Oswald's "innocence", so I gotta ask what are the CT's trying to accomplish here with what you must all know only amounts to worthless go nowhere arguments because it's obvious that not one of you has any interest in solving your "conspiratorial" crime and mistakenly think that creating doubt for the sake of chaos is the answer, but the answer to what?
JohnM
Wow, so much unproven conjecture and all without even a scintilla of evidence to support this ever increasing level of paranoia, and when you have no answers to what is in fact my "supah-dupah" arguments of evidence that only Whaley exclusively knew that wasn't in the public domain, you suddenly shift the goalposts and now you're reduced to this new level of absurd arrogance that all the inconvenient witnesses lied and all the problematic evidence was manufactured, go away and try and convince someone/anyone of your unsubstantiated ideas and let's see how far that gets you.
What a pathetic attempt to score points, I was the one who first EDITED my previous post and directed you to the EDITED post and I was the one who first posted the non Dallas newspaper and all the newspaper's thereafter and I was the one who first admitted that Whaley could have gained information from the newspaper article, that is if the same info was published in Dallas and when the tables were turned and I posted non public domain evidence that only Whaley and Oswald knew, you alter the rules and make endless unprovable paranoid claims in a weak attempt to defend your untenable position.
Perhaps Whaley did see an ID bracelet on the wrist of his passenger who was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.
ID Bracelets were very common ...... a large percentage of young men wore them....
But the Fact remains Lee Oswald could not have been Whaley's passenger because Lee was wearing a reddish brown shirt with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR and he was NOT wearing a BLUE JACKET.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/4Z5zBIv2DCo8oyAiZX/giphy.gif?cid=790b761128446a2e4880dd9e2368f573de31e7da1edbabc4&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Round and round we go and now at way over 200 posts, we have 1 CT Walt giving a lame ass excuse for doubting the official version with another equally innocent explanation? So far not one CT can come up with an alternative narrative much less an alternative that proves Oswald's "innocence", so I gotta ask what are the CT's trying to accomplish here with what you must all know only amounts to worthless go nowhere arguments because it's obvious that not one of you has any interest in solving your "conspiratorial" crime and mistakenly think that creating doubt for the sake of chaos is the answer, but the answer to what?
JohnM
So far not one CT can come up with an alternative narrative much less an alternative that proves Oswald's "innocence"
Since when does somebody's innocence needs to proven? The last time I looked the onus was and is on the prosecution to prove somebody guilty. But thank your for exposing your Salem like "guilty unless prove innocent" mindset
Yeah, thanks for unnessessarily reiterating the legal principles of innocent until proven guilty but how about you stop sidestepping the actual issue and answer the question that was posed waaaaaaay back at start of this thread?
Innocent of the shooting or not, Oswald still got from the TSBD to his boarding house somehow. Whatever method or route he took makes no difference to what he may or may not have done on the sixth floor a few minutes earlier.
Why is it such a big deal to disprove Oswald got in Whaley's cab? What difference does it make? If he got a different cab, a helicopter or even ran the whole way, what would it prove?
So far not one CT can come up with an alternative narrative
Huh?? have you got your head so far tucked that you can't read...Lee told Fritz that he took a city bus to the theater ( read Thomas Kelley's report on page 626 of WR) It's true that Lee said that he took one bus from Elm and Lamar and rode it all the way to Jefferson, and the Texas Theater. ( At least that's the way the interrogators recorded Lee's answer ...But he did say that he transferred from bus to bus to reach various destinations in Dallas.) The way I see it Lee told them that he rode a bus to the theater. Naturally they had to cover up this statement because if he had rode a bus to the theater then he couldn't possibly have been at 10 & Patton when JD Tippit was murdered. Thus it was crucial to eliminate Lee's statement ....
you stop sidestepping the actual issue and answer the question that was posed waaaaaaay back at start of this thread?
You are talking to the wrong person. The question asked at the beginning of this thread is of very little interest to me.
Well that's all very convenient, isn't it, Weidmann. Jump in on a thread with petty arguments but when asked to comment on the actual reasoning behind the thread you claim you're not interested.
Why don't you just go and comment on a thread that does interest you rather than just sitting there adding irrelevant crap to this one then?
Why don't you just go and comment on a thread that does interest you rather than just sitting there adding irrelevant crap to this one then?
Why don't you stop pretending to be relevant enough to tell others what to do, because you are not.
Yeah, thanks for unnessessarily reiterating the legal principles of innocent until proven guilty but how about you stop sidestepping the actual issue and answer the question that was posed waaaaaaay back at start of this thread?
Innocent of the shooting or not, Oswald still got from the TSBD to his boarding house somehow. Whatever method or route he took makes no difference to what he may or may not have done on the sixth floor a few minutes earlier.
Why is it such a big deal to disprove Oswald got in Whaley's cab? What difference does it make? If he got a different cab, a helicopter or even ran the whole way, what would it prove?
Great comeback, Weidmann.
That certainly showed me.
What are you 12 years old?
I shall definitely take what you said on board and think twice about it next time now that I know that this is the type of devastating abuse I might be on the receiving end of. ::)
:D
The way I see it Earlene Roberts' statement that Oswald arrived at his rooming house at 1pm and left soon after would surely have been enough to prove that Lee's claim of getting a direct bus to the Theatre from Elm and Lamar was complete bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns.
Why go to all the bother of creating a fake taxi ride? And if you are going to go to all the bother, why not at least write down the correct times of the alleged fake taxi fare in the taxi driver's journal?
Or even better, bearing in mind there were no recordings and barely any witnesses to Oswald's statement, why not just completely ignore it and not report it all and then there wouldn't be any need to eliminate Oswald's statement in the first place.
I know these questions have been asked several times before on this thread, but as usual, nobody has answered them and have preferred to go off on a tangent about something else like the ins and outs of 'innocent until proven guilty' because they think it scores them petty points in an argument without addressing the actual question.
:D
The way I see it Earlene Roberts' statement that Oswald arrived at his rooming house at 1pm and left soon after would surely have been enough to prove that Lee's claim of getting a direct bus to the Theatre from Elm and Lamar was complete bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns.
Why go to all the bother of creating a fake taxi ride? And if you are going to go to all the bother, why not at least write down the correct times of the alleged fake taxi fare in the taxi driver's journal?
Or even better, bearing in mind there were no recordings and barely any witnesses to Oswald's statement, why not just completely ignore it and not report it all and then there wouldn't be any need to eliminate Oswald's statement in the first place.
I know these questions have been asked several times before on this thread, but as usual, nobody has answered them and have preferred to go off on a tangent about something else like the ins and outs of 'innocent until proven guilty' because they think it scores them petty points in an argument without addressing the actual question.
Why would Oswald admit to being in possession of a transfer when that supported his story?
That's a Fritz fabrication.
Oswald would have flashed that transfer.
When did the transfer make it to the evidence room?
Ok ok ok, we get it you don't believe Whaley took Oswald from "A" to "B" and you think Oswald took another cab from "A" to "B", now what?
JohnM
When did the transfer make it to the evidence room?
When did the transfer make it to the evidence room?
Innocent of the shooting or not, Oswald still got from the TSBD to his boarding house somehow. Whatever method or route he took makes no difference to what he may or may not have done on the sixth floor a few minutes earlier.
Oh but the 'investigating' authorities would have been keenly aware of the massive implications method and/or route might have for
a) whether their suspect was a lone wolf assassin
b) whether their suspect shot Officer Tippit
Remember-----------DPD initially believed that Mr Oswald had gotten into a Rambler car driven by a dark-complected man
DPD initially believed that Mr Oswald had gotten into a Rambler car driven by a dark-complected man
No they did NOT believe that....In fact Captain fritz said that he recalled a deputy sheriff telling him that he had seen a young man who looked like the suspect run down the north slope and jump in a light colored Rambler, but he knew that the deputy was telling him something that did not fit with what they knew to be the truth.
When did the transfer make it to the evidence room?
After 4.10pm (after first interrogation), according to the late Mr Vincent Bugliosi:
"When they arrive downstairs in the basement holdover room, Sims and Boyd search Oswald—remarkably, no one has yet" (emphasis added).
Even the King of the Warren Gullibles has to boggle at this nonsense!
Even though you haven't spelt it out, you seem to be alleging foul play and if so aren't we left with a logical contradiction, on one hand you are saying that the delay of the Police finding the bus transfer leads to a conspiracy but those same Police are the ones who recorded the times and therefore to cover their tracks could write whatever time they wanted?
I suggest that the delay is most likely linked to assumptions, everybody assumed that someone else searched Oswald therefore no one searched Oswald (too many cooks spoil the broth). And since there was no preconceived wrongdoing they simply listed the correct time.
JohnM
Bledsoe wasn't shown the "BUTTON DOWN COLLAR" shirt, CE 151.
Surprise?
LOL
They conspirators displayed to Mrs Bledsoe the shirt that Lee was wearing when he was dragged from the theater. They knew damned well that it was NOT the shirt that he had worn when he boarded the bus, but they also knew that Mrs Bledsoe had Altzheimers and they could lead her into swearing that she saw a pig fly.
The major problem with the shirt is the FACT that the FBI examined the tuft of fibers they found on the butt of the rifle and recorded that the fibers matched the shirt that Lee was wearing at the time of his arrest at the Texas theater. This was a major faux pas, and they knew it.
Why is that a "major faux pas"? Even if Oswald was not wearing that shirt that day, it was still his rifle and his shirt, the fibers could have gotten on them on some prior occasion. Big deal? What is his rifle doing in the TSBD is the better question?
Why is that a "major faux pas"? Even if Oswald was not wearing that shirt that day, it was still his rifle and his shirt, the fibers could have gotten on them on some prior occasion. Big deal? What is his rifle doing in the TSBD is the better question?
Great comeback, Weidmann.
That certainly showed me.
What are you 12 years old?
I shall definitely take what you said on board and think twice about it next time now that I know that this is the type of devastating abuse I might be on the receiving end of. ::)
As I recall Lee was searched in the squad car on the way to DPD headquarters. They officers in the car removed his wallet and asked if he was Lee Oswald. If that bus transfer had been in his shirt pocket they would have noticed it. And if it had been in his shirt pocket during the initial interrogation Fritz or one of the other men who were there would have noticed it, and Fritz would have asked about that transfer.
While trying to establish who Oswald was, the Police while they were all crammed into a Police car felt for Oswald's billfold in his hip pocket and that seemed to be the extent of searching Oswald and your claim that Fritz (who btw didn't have X-Ray vision) would have noticed the transfer in Oswald's shirt pocket is ridiculous. And another observation, why would an innocent man not be co-operating with the Police and simply tell the Police his name?
Mr. HILL The suspect was asked what his name was.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say?
Mr. HILL. He never did answer. He just sat there.
Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived?
Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.
About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."
Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.
I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.
And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.
(http://photos.cinematreasures.org/production/photos/82219/1379992313/large.jpg?1379992313)
JohnM
Fritz (who btw didn't have X-Ray vision) would have noticed the transfer in Oswald's shirt pocket is ridiculous.
Not if the transfer was not folded....It was long enough to have protruded above the shirt pocket.
Even though you haven't spelt it out, you seem to be alleging foul play and if so aren't we left with a logical contradiction, on one hand you are saying that the delay of the Police finding the bus transfer leads to a conspiracy but those same Police are the ones who recorded the times and therefore to cover their tracks could write whatever time they wanted?
I shall definitely take what you said on board and think twice about it next time now that I know that this is the type of devastating abuse I might be on the receiving end of. Thumb1:
Btw stop playing the victim. It doesn't work.
Btw try learning how to recognise sarcasm. It might stop you from looking an absolute tool and completely misinterpreting someone when they are doing the complete opposite of trying to be portrayed as a victim. ::)
Here's Oswald's Bus transfer which shows multiple folds
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0g0PVWw/back-of-osw--ald-bus-transferb.jpg)
JohnM
Try to debate the assassination for once. All the gibberish and ad homs you bring to this forum do not impress anybody.
the complete opposite of trying to be portrayed as a victim
So, Mr "Bad ass wannabe", you are desperately trying not to come across as a victim and failing miserably.... Got it Thumb1:
No logical contradiction here, Mr Mytton, just your trademark lack of understanding of how this DPD machine for framing innocent men worked in actual practise: crudely, cavalierly---------but with brutal conviction-oriented effectiveness.
Try to debate the assassination for once. All the gibberish and ad homs you bring to this forum do not impress anybody.
So, Mr "Bad ass wannabe", you are desperately trying not to come across as a victim and failing miserably.... Got it Thumb1:
Are you for real? :D
The whole reason this started was because you went off on a tangent whilst I was trying to discuss the assassination. When I actually asked you to address the subject matter of this thread you said, and I quote: "You are talking to the wrong person. The question asked at the beginning of this thread is of very little interest to me."
And yet here you are several pages later still waffling on about nonsense and suggesting I'm the one who should try to debate the assassination, hahaha!
"Mr Bad ass wannabe", eh? Haha! Brilliant! Another highly articulate attempt at an insult from your good self. I'm getting the feeling that I'm one step away from being told to 'go fuck ur mom'.
I don't think anyone can even attempt to be portrayed as a victim as a result of an exchange of words with you. It's just amusing to see what an absolute tit you make of yourself by using the most pathetic comebacks of the lowest common denominator whilst at the same time genuinely thinking you're scoring points in a petty and absolutely pointless argument.
I can totally understand why other people on this forum openly state that they stopped interacting with you ages ago.
Well don't give up and go away Mr Baxter.... I have a feeling that you're a person worth debating.... But this particular thread has been worn out... Only Johnny M still clings to William Whaley's tale.
The reason this thread has been worn out is because John asked any CTer to provide a plausible explanation of Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD if not the public transport as described in the "official" narrative.
This exposed the nit-picking BS: of most CTers unwilling to put forward their own theories.
The exception being yourself Walt.
Unfortunately your theory involved a cab driver called Darryl Glick who doesn't even exist.
A note to all LNers - if you want CTers to shut up just ask them to provide their own narrative based on the evidence as they understand it.
Dan the name of the driver who transported Lee Oswald to Oak Cliff is irrelevant .... But How do you know that Darrel Glick ( That's G l i c k ( with a "G") doesn't exist ??
And I have no theory....
I simply present the FACTS... Whaley left the Greyhound bus depot with his passenger about 15 minutes before Lee Oswald could have arrived at the bus depot taxi stand. AND ...Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers....Lee was wearing a reddish brown shirt with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR and dark grey trousers.
There may well be a person called Darryl/Darrel Glick.
But they have nothing to do with this case. If you have solid evidence otherwise please present it or I'll have to assume it's something you've made up/seriously misunderstood (Reply # 191)
My bad Walt.
That means not a single CTer has been able to provide a plausible explanation for Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD.
Not a single one.
"Whaley left the Greyhound bus depot with his passenger about 15 minutes before Lee Oswald could have arrived at the bus depot taxi stand."
This is not a fact.
It's your interpretation of Whaley's manifest from which you take his rounded off, estimated times as actual times.
"Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers."
This is not a fact.
Nowhere does Whaley state Oswald was wearing a blue jacket.
The fact is that the only colour Whaley applies to the jacket is grey.
Just do what everyone else does - snipe at the inconsistencies in the case whilst offering no other solution and carry on waving the flag of "Truth".
The reason this thread has been worn out is because John asked any CTer to provide a plausible explanation of Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD if not the public transport as described in the "official" narrative.
The testimony of William Whaley.....
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close hut I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
"Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers."
This is not a fact.
Nowhere does Whaley stateOswaldthat his passenger was wearing a blue jacket.
Whaley... "it wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki.
Whaley....."I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants."
Yeah, Walt
Nowhere does Whaley describe a blue jacket.
He describes blue pants.
But he does not describe a blue jacket.
(...)
It is not a fact that Whaley describes a blue jacket.
Yeah, Walt
Nowhere does Whaley describe a blue jacket.
He describes blue pants.
But he does not describe a blue jacket.
The jacket almost matched the pants in some unspecified way.
But he does not describe a blue jacket.
You really need to see this.
It is not a fact that Whaley describes a blue jacket.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. WHALEY. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
::)
Mr. Ball. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. Whaley. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. Ball. Look something like it? And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?
Mr. Whaley. He had this one on or the other one.
Mr. Ball. That is right.
Mr. Whaley. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.
Mr. Ball. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.
Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. You said that a jacket--
Mr. Whaley. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.
Mr. Ball. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.
Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir.
The only facts you stick to Walt are the ones you make up.
Not True.... Can't you comprehend what Whaley said... He said Quote....
"It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki.
I don't know how it can be made any simpler.... Whaley said the trousers and Jacket were made of "khaki" material. He probably meant a cotton twill fabric..... But never- the- less he said the trousers were BLUE....and the jacket and the trouser made up "LIKE A BLUE UNIFORM."
How can you continue to deny this fact?
From page 160 of the Report----
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?
Mr. FRITZ. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have it here?
Mr. BALL. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men.
Mr. FRITZ. Some of my officers.
Mr. BALL. He is a deputy sheriff.
Mr. FRITZ. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.
Mr. BALL. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a colored man.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that is true.
Mr. BALL. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember the witness; yes, sir.
Another dumb mistake by Fritz trying to BS his way out. In the very beginning of an investigation you don't dismiss leads like that unless......
Craig testified that later in the afternoon he saw Oswald in the police interrogation room and told Captain Fritz that Oswald was the man he saw.451 Craig also claimed that when Fritz pointed out to Oswald that Craig had identified him, Oswald rose from his chair, looked directly at Fritz, and said, "Everybody will know who I am now." 452Fritz did not bring [Roger Craig] into his office to identify Oswald
The Commission could not accept important elements of Craig's testimony. Captain Fritz stated that a deputy sheriff whom he could not identify did ask to see him that afternoon and told him a similar story to Craig's.453 Fritz did not bring him into his office to identify Oswald but turned him over to Lieutenant Baker for questioning. If Craig saw Oswald that afternoon, he saw him through the glass windows of the office. And neither Captain Fritz nor any other officer can remember that Oswald dramatically arose from his chair and said, "Everybody will know who I am now." 454 If Oswald had made such a statement, Captain Fritz and others present would probably have remembered it.
"...and the jacket and the trouser made up "LIKE A BLUE UNIFORM."What happened then...to this blue jacket that the passenger was wearing?
The only thing it says about the jacket is that it is similar to the pants. Do you accept this or not?
Are you joking Walt?
"It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki.
This is a description of the pants.
You must surely comprehend that this is a description of the pants.
It is not a description of the jacket.
"Whaley said the trousers and Jacket were made of "khaki" material"
Firstly, Whaley does not say the pants and jacket were made of a "khaki" material.
He says the jacket was similar to the pants but he doesn't say the jacket was blue or that it was made of a khaki material.
"...and the jacket and the trouser made up "LIKE A BLUE UNIFORM."
You are either joking or having some kind of senior moment.
You can't make it a fact by asserting your interpretation of what you're reading Walt.
The only thing it says about the jacket is that it is similar to the pants. Do you accept this or not?
The only facts you stick to Walt are the ones you make up.
Not True.... Can't you comprehend what Whaley said... He said Quote....
"It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki.
I don't know how it can be made any simpler.... Whaley said the trousers and Jacket were made of "khaki" material. He probably meant a cotton twill fabric..... But never- the- less he said the trousers were BLUE....and the jacket and the trouser made up "LIKE A BLUE UNIFORM."
How can you continue to deny this fact?
This will not save Dan...
The only thing it says about the jacket is that it is similar to the pants. Do you accept this or not?
Still calculating cab ride odds?
What happened then...to this blue jacket that the passenger was wearing?
Dan I expected an HONEST debate from you.... Guess I should have known better....
You have admitted that Whaley's passenger was wearing a JACKET.... Lee Oswald was NOT wearing a Jacket.
Now can you man up and admit that Lee Oswald was NOT Whaley's passenger?
This is an interesting question??
Did Fritz send his officers out to find the cab driver who had been bragging to his fellow cabbies about how he had transported the assassin in his cab after the assassination. Fritz was looking for the cabbie would tell them that he had transported Lee Oswald to Oak Cliff the afternoon of 11-22-63?? Fritz reported that ( page 604 WR) One of the officers had told me that a cab driver William Wayne Whaley, THOUGHT he had recognized Oswald's picture as the man who had gotten in his cab near the bus station and rode to Beckley Ave. I asked Oswald if he had ridden in a cab that day, and he said "yes, did ride in the cab. The bus I got on where I work got into heavy traffic and was traveling too slow, and I got off and caught a cab." I asked him about his conversation with the cab driver, and he said he remembered that when he got into the cab a lady came up who also wanted a cab , and he told Oswald to tell the lady to "take another cab" xxxxx irrelevant information omitted. xxxxx During this conversation he told me he reached home by cab and CHANGED BOTH HIS SHIRT AND TROUSERS before going to the show.HE SAID THAT HIS CAB FARE WAS 85 CENTS ( notice that Fritz did not say "approximately 85 cents in this report)
There can be no doubt that Whaley's story is just plain old BS.... Whaley apparently had in fact transported a young man to Oakcliff that afternoon, but it could not have been Lee Oswald. He said that he picked up the man at 12:30 , and it is a known fact that Lee Oswald was still at the TSBD at 12:30. But how did he know that Lee had in fact taken a cab from the Greyhound depot to Zangs and Beckley? Simple....He talked to the cabbie who did in fact transport Lee Oswald from the Greyhound taxi stand to Oak Cliff... He simply inserted himself into the story.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25889-why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-402782
David Von Pein - Posted July 13, 2019
...A Whaley Addendum....
Based on William Whaley's 11/23/63 FBI interview, I think it's pretty clear that Whaley originally did think he had taken Oswald all the way to the 500 block of North Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63. Whaley told the FBI on November 23rd that he "took the young man to the 500 block of Beckley Street".
But I think the key to knowing that Whaley was mistaken about the "500 block" is the fact that he always maintained—even in his first FBI interview the day after Oswald rode in his taxicab—that the fare for Oswald's cab ride was exactly "95 cents".
And Whaley's 11/22/63 manifest (or trip sheet) also confirms the fare for the Greyhound-to-Beckley trip as being 95 cents.
And we can see from the reconstructed cab rides that a trip in Whaley's cab that starts at the Greyhound bus station and ends at the intersection of Neely & Beckley would, in fact, be 95 cents....
Really Walt?
Well I didn't expect an honest debate with you.
I expected you to stick with your BS: "I only deal with facts" routine even when it was clearly pointed out that you were mistaken.
Whaley describes faded blue pants made of a khaki material. He says the jacket is similar to the pants.
But he does not say the jacket is blue.
You are incorrect to insist it is a fact Whaley described a blue jacket.
You are absolutely incorrect.
But I don't expect you to accept that.
I expect you to try and change the subject exactly as you are doing.
Why don't you man up and accept your mistake?
Are you joking Walt?
"It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki.
This is a description of the pants.
You must surely comprehend that this is a description of the pants.
It is not a description of the jacket.
"Whaley said the trousers and Jacket were made of "khaki" material"
Firstly, Whaley does not say the pants and jacket were made of a "khaki" material.
He says the jacket was similar to the pants but he doesn't say the jacket was blue or that it was made of a khaki material.
"...and the jacket and the trouser made up "LIKE A BLUE UNIFORM."
You are either joking or having some kind of senior moment.
You can't make it a fact by asserting your interpretation of what you're reading Walt.
The only thing it says about the jacket is that it is similar to the pants. Do you accept this or not?
Whaley describes faded blue pants made of a khaki material. He says the jacket is similar to the pants.
But he does not say the jacket is blue.
Dan, There is no mistake.... YOU Dan O'meara posted this ..."He says the jacket is similar to the pants."
You have acknowledged that Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a JACKET. It is irrelevant whether you believe he said the JACKET was blue. The fact is; Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a JACKET....and Lee Oswald was NOT wearing a Jacket.
You have constantly insisted Whaley described a BLUE JACKET, you stated this was a fact and that you only deal with facts.
I've demonstrated that this was not a fact.
Rather than accept this you now decide the colour is irrelevant.
"It is irrelevant whether you believe he said the JACKET was blue"
???
It's you who believed Whaley said the jacket was blue!!
It was you Walt, not me.
WTF are you on about??
I've had to force you into a corner to demonstrate that Whaley didn't describe a BLUE JACKET, which you had touted as one of the facts you dealt in.
Having a debate with you, honest or otherwise, is borderline impossible.
Yes, Dan ol man, I understand your frustration.... I've hammered you "onto the ropes" with the FACTS and have tried to allow you to admit that Bill Whaley did not transport Lee Oswald to 500 N. Beckley that afternoon. but you simply can't be honest and instead you resort to "cheap tricks" .... You're KO'ed in this bout so you just as well throw up your gloves.....
I think it's time for your nap Walt
Yes , I understand that you'd like me to stop hammering you into submission, and I'll admit that I'm a little tired.... But I'm going to keep pounding this truth into your head until you knock off the cheap diversions and start being honest with yourself.
Thanks for taking it easy on me Walt.
Oswald gets to the rooming house close to 1pm
How does he get there?
I am more than willing to honestly consider any evidence you may have regarding this question.
Lee Oswald said that he boarded a bus but after a couple of blocks it became jammed in traffic so he got off ( 12:44) and walked a couple of blocks to the taxi stand at the Greyhound Bus depot, and hired a cab (12:48) to take him to the rooming house. This Taxi was a CITY cab and it was NOT driven by Bill Whaley. Lee told Fritz that a woman looked in the window and asked the driver to call a taxi for her. (Fritz knew this and told Whaley that Lee had said that a woman had looked into the taxi and requested that the driver call a taxi for her. Thus Whaley incorporated this detail into his lie) Lee told Fritz that the cab fare was 85 cents ....Whaley said that he charged his passenger 95 cents. The 95 cents is the correct fare for a person traveling from the Greyhound depot to 500 N. Beckley ...and 85 cents is the correct fare for a person traveling from the bus depot to the intersection of Zangs and Beckley....
Do you know what Walt, that seems plausible to me.
Not 100% sure why the investigating authorities would fake a cab ride instead of just finding the real taxi driver.
A few phone calls to the various cab companies should've been enough to track him down.
But what if they had no luck in tracking him down? And what if this failure cast doubt on Mr Oswald's claims about getting a taxi?
This would have left the 'investigating' authorities with a really tricky situation-----------they couldn't find corroboration that Mr Oswald had made it to his rooming house independently, i.e. without the help of another person who was NEITHER a bus driver NOR a cab driver. Such a failure to establish that Mr Oswald acted alone in his 'getaway' would only raise further the specter of conspiracy in the public mind.
Enter Mr Whaley..............
But what if they had no luck in tracking him down? And what if this failure cast doubt on Mr Oswald's claims about getting a taxi?
This would have left the 'investigating' authorities with a really tricky situation-----------they couldn't find corroboration that Mr Oswald had made it to his rooming house independently, i.e. without the help of another person who was NEITHER a bus driver NOR a cab driver. Such a failure to establish that Mr Oswald acted alone in his 'getaway' would only raise further the specter of conspiracy in the public mind.
Enter Mr Whaley..............
Yet no pretend bus ride or cab ride to explain how Oswald got from his rooming house to the Tippit murder scene. The authorities found out about the Marsalis bus and Whaley taxi rides because they happened, not because they had to be invented.
Really?
Whaley's affidavit is given the day after the assassination.
What's the big rush?
Why do the authorities feel the need to establish his getaway by the next day?
The investigation has only just begun. They have Oswald in custody and have as much time as they need to establish his movements after the TSBD.
Do you really think the investigating authorities were concerned about the "specter of conspiracy" the day after the assassination??
There is no need to start faking cab rides when a few phone calls would've tracked down the real cab driver.
You are not thinking about this correctly at all.
Why the need to start faking things the day after the assassination?
They've got weeks and moths to put all the pieces together.
Why the need to start faking things the day after the assassination?
The conspirators were in a panic.... They never anticipated that the patsy would leave the TSBD alive.....
The public was clamoring for answers and their "fat was in the fire" ......
You'll notice that Fritz does not ask lee how he traveled from the rooming house to the theater. Fritz didn't want that answer....He wanted it to appear as though Lee had traveled from the rooming house to the scene of Tippit's murder.
The theory that Lee ran from the rooming house to 10th & Patton streets has been exposed as impossible because an eye witness to the Tippit murder swore under oath that Tippit was killed at 1:06 pm. And since Lee was still at the rooming house at 1:03 pm it would have been impossible for him to have traveled the mile between the rooming house and the Tippit scene in just a couple of minutes.
An often overlooked bit of information is the fact that Lee said hat he was going to the movies before he ever departed from the TSBD. Lee's destination when he left the TSBD was the Texas Theater. ..... So there is no reasonable explanation that would account for him to have been at 10th & Patton.
I know that the diehard LNer's have proposed many theories in an attempt to frame Lee Oswald for Tippit's murder, but they cannot refute the FACT that Lee told Fritz that he took a bus to the theater. Nor can they refute the FACT that Tipit's killer was NOT using a S&W revolver. Lee allegedly had a S&W revolver in his possession when he was arrested at the theater. And nobody ever proved that the S&W was the murder weapon. ( It can't be proven, because it was not the murder weapon.)
Here's the guy that they absolutely had to silence - to prevent him from exposing the plot. If he talked, that would be it. Those objects to the right of him are microphones. That big square thing on the top/center is a TV camera. It was broadcasting live. There are dozens of people in the room.
They could have allowed some "favored" reporters to talk to Oswald secretly. Orchestrate an interview. Keep it quiet in case he exposed the plot. But no, they did this. Yes, that's what conspirators would do.
(https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Thomas-J-kelley-at-Oswalds-press-conference.jpg)
Really?
Whaley's affidavit is given the day after the assassination.
What's the big rush?
Why do the authorities feel the need to establish his getaway by the next day?
The investigation has only just begun. They have Oswald in custody and have as much time as they need to establish his movements after the TSBD.
Do you really think the investigating authorities were concerned about the "specter of conspiracy" the day after the assassination??
There is no need to start faking cab rides when a few phone calls would've tracked down the real cab driver.
You are not thinking about this correctly at all.
Why the need to start faking things the day after the assassination?
They've got weeks and moths to put all the pieces together.
Psssst Steve.... It may come as a shock to you.....But secret agents do not "talk". Lee was not revealing anything about the stage play that he was starring in. He simply denied that he had killed anybody, and requested that "SOMEONE" COME TO HIS LEGAL AID. He was waiting for the officially approved attorney ( Mr Abt) to advise him about answering questions.
Steve, you're so blinded by the BS that you make a damned fool of yourself when you post.
Do you know what Walt, that seems plausible to me.
Not 100% sure why the investigating authorities would fake a cab ride instead of just finding the real taxi driver.
A few phone calls to the various cab companies should've been enough to track him down.
Why the need to start faking things the day after the assassination?
The conspirators were in a panic.... They never anticipated that the patsy would leave the TSBD alive.....
The public was clamoring for answers and their "fat was in the fire" ......
You'll notice that Fritz does not ask lee how he traveled from the rooming house to the theater. Fritz didn't want that answer....He wanted it to appear as though Lee had traveled from the rooming house to the scene of Tippit's murder.
The theory that Lee ran from the rooming house to 10th & Patton streets has been exposed as impossible because an eye witness to the Tippit murder swore under oath that Tippit was killed at 1:06 pm. And since Lee was still at the rooming house at 1:03 pm it would have been impossible for him to have traveled the mile between the rooming house and the Tippit scene in just a couple of minutes.
An often overlooked bit of information is the fact that Lee said hat he was going to the movies before he ever departed from the TSBD. Lee's destination when he left the TSBD was the Texas Theater. ..... So there is no reasonable explanation that would account for him to have been at 10th & Patton.
I know that the diehard LNer's have proposed many theories in an attempt to frame Lee Oswald for Tippit's murder, but they cannot refute the FACT that Lee told Fritz that he took a bus to the theater. Nor can they refute the FACT that Tipit's killer was NOT using a S&W revolver. Lee allegedly had a S&W revolver in his possession when he was arrested at the theater. And nobody ever proved that the S&W was the murder weapon. ( It can't be proven, because it was not the murder weapon.)
Really?
Whaley's affidavit is given the day after the assassination.
What's the big rush?
Why do the authorities feel the need to establish his getaway by the next day?
The investigation has only just begun. They have Oswald in custody and have as much time as they need to establish his movements after the TSBD.
Do you really think the investigating authorities were concerned about the "specter of conspiracy" the day after the assassination??
There is no need to start faking cab rides when a few phone calls would've tracked down the real cab driver.
You are not thinking about this correctly at all.
Why the need to start faking things the day after the assassination?
Here's the guy that they absolutely had to silence - to prevent him from exposing the plot. If he talked, that would be it. Those objects to the right of him are microphones. That big square thing on the top/center is a TV camera. It was broadcasting live. There are dozens of people in the room.
They could have allowed some "favored" reporters to talk to Oswald secretly. Orchestrate an interview. Keep it quiet in case he exposed the plot. But no, they did this. Yes, that's what conspirators would do.
(https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Thomas-J-kelley-at-Oswalds-press-conference.jpg)
I totally agree with your comment on Joe Molina saying that he never saw Baker enter the TSBD. Perhaps Molina's attention was riveted on some other event at the time that Baker pushed his way into the TSBD, and therefore Molina simply didn't see him.
So it was quite possible for folks not to notice a person's presence on those steps if their attention was riveted on some other event. Good to know! Thumb1:
I realize logic plays no part in your fantasies but why did they plan to kill him at the TSBD or have Ruby kill him if he is not going to talk due to his status as "secret agent"? He just keeps his mouth shut in prison like they trusted Ruby to do. In fact, Ruby seems like a greater risk to blab than Oswald if Old Lee was a super duper secret agent in on the plan.
Yes, it's fortunate that we have films and photos that confirm Oswald was not on the steps but that Baker did enter the building in a run so that we do not have to rely upon recollections.
Right----------no pressure whatsoever on 11/22/63 or 11/23/63 to pin this thing on Mr Oswald and Mr Oswald alone. Is there no limit to your naivete, Mr O'Meara?
They started faking things 11/22/63
How is faking a cab ride pinning it on Oswald??
Talk about naive!
As far as the investigating authorities were concerned they had Oswald, they had his rifle on the 6th floor, a photo of him with the rifle, the fake ID that bought the rifle.
And you think they needed to fake a cab ride to get it over the line??
You're very silly sometimes.
And you're a very poor listener.
What they needed to get over the line was not just Mr Oswald as the shooter but Mr Oswald as the lone nut sans confederates. He not being a driver himself, he had to have received help from someone to get away from Dealey Plaza. That someone must be someone whose transporting of Mr Oswald is consistent with Mr Oswald's acting alone.
A bus driver and/or a cab driver are the only ones that fit this particular bill: people who could have transported Mr Oswald without even knowing him.
If a bus journey and/or a cab journey cannot be established, then Mr Oswald must have caught a ride in someone's else's car. Specter of conspiracy, hello.
Thumb1:
They had Oswald admitting he'd taken a cab ride (Kelley's report)
Or are you saying it was known that Oswald didn't act alone and that had to be covered up??
The interrogation reports have Mr Oswald 'admitting' this. Big difference!
No, it was known that Mr Oswald hadn't shot Pres. Kennedy. But the 'investigators' weren't interested in establishing facts, just putting together a lone nut narrative
But if he really was alone, then he had to take public transport back to his rooming house so why make that up and why do you doubt Oswald admitting he did exactly that?
But if he really was alone, then he had to take public transport back to his rooming house so why make that up and why do you doubt Oswald admitting he did exactly that?
It depends on what EXACTLY he told them:
---------------Bus ride(s) only
---------------Abortive bus ride followed by cab ride
---------------A. N. Other gave him a ride
The many problems with Mr Whaley's statements raise serious doubts as to the middle answer above, which is the official story of what Mr Oswald said. And the interrogation reports claim he only 'admitted' this the following day. Why would even a guilty Mr Oswald have wished to hide the fact that he had gotten a cab?
IF Mr Oswald told them something that suggested assistance from someone neither a bus driver nor a cab driver AND/OR ruled him out as the shooter of Officer Tippit, and if his claim were verified, then this claim would have been suppressed and a new, improved one put in his mouth in the interrogation reports.
Again, all that mattered was a lone nut narrative that could be sold to the public
I know I'm going to regret this, but, how do CTers think Oswald got back to the rooming house?
I know I'm going to regret this, but, how do CTers think Oswald got back to the rooming house?
Walt is the only CTer with the balls to offer up an alternative to the "official" narrative that Oswald did get a bus then a taxi back to the rooming house but that it was a different taxi, not the one driven by Whaley.
This is the only alternative theory the CT community on this forum have come up with.
Walt is the only CTer with the balls to offer up an alternative to the "official" narrative
That's poor analogy Dan..... :D Prostate cancer has reduced the testosterone that makes the male an aggressive creature.
But, I sincerely appreciate your comment.....
Walt is the only CTer with the balls to offer up an alternative to the "official" narrative that Oswald did get a bus then a taxi back to the rooming house but that it was a different taxi, not the one driven by Whaley.
This is the only alternative theory the CT community on this forum have come up with.
I ask sensible questions like that to flush out the crazies. Did you know that's its completely normal (and not the least bit suspicious) for a man to hop a bus to a movie theater instead of watching the minute by minute news coverage of the assassination? It's true!
I know I'm going to regret this, but, how do CTers think Oswald got back to the rooming house?Why do people who do not believe that Oswald acted alone necessarily have to have a theory on what might have really happened?
"alternative" - - ROFL
Nice try.
As if you have anythig but hogwash.
I ask sensible questions like that to flush out the crazies. Did you know that it's completely normal (and not the least bit suspicious) for a man to hop a bus to a movie theater instead of watching the minute by minute news coverage of the assassination? It's true!
John got rid of all the crazies when he asked them to provide an alternative scenario.The rabid ones with no life experience?
I heard a rifle shot and a few seconds later a second and then a third shot. At the retort [sic] of the first shot, I started running around the corner and Officer Buddy Walthers and I ran across Houston Street and on up the terrace on Elm Street and into the railroad yards. We made a [unintelligible -- search?] through the railroad yards and I returned to Elm Street by the Turnpike sign at which time Officer Walthers told me that a bullet had struck the curb on the south side of Elm Street. I crossed to Elm with Deputy C. L. Lummie Lewis [sic] to search for a spot where a shell might have hit. About this time I heard a shrill whistle and I turned around and saw a white male running down the hill from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository building and I saw what I think was a light colored Rambler Station [sic] wagon with [a] luggage rack on top pull over to the curb and the subject who had come running down the hill got into the car. The man driving this station wagon was a dark complected white male. I tried to get across the street to stop the car and talk with subjects, but the traffic was so heavy, I could not make it. I reported this incident at once to a secret service [sic] officer whose name I do not know, then I left this area and went at once to the building and assisted in the search of the building.https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/craig1.htm Affidavit on Nov 23 1963
Later that afternoon, I heard that the City had a suspect in custody and I called and reported the information about the suspect running down the hill and getting into a car to Captain Fritz and was requested to come at once to City Hall. I went to the City Hall and identified the suspect they had in custody as being the same person I saw running down this hill and get into the station wagon and leave the scene.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?The alternative? There was no bus ride...there was no cab ride. Oswald was taken to Oak Cliff in this car. You want it...you got it it.
Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.
I have my own.
Can you get anything right, Danny?
Getting owned by Walt RE the jacket must have hurt, wow!
:D
The BLUE JACKET??
Get a grip.
Maybe Whaley was a 5th grade flunkie ---
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
almost matched the pants.
Khaki is a color, a light shade of brown with a yellowish tinge. It has been used as a color name in English since 1848 when it was first introduced as a military uniform.
Maybe Whaley was a 5th grade flunkie ---
If Oswald was innocent he would have no accomplices, no car and no way of getting home other than public transport.
He left the TSBD on an impulse and didn't have time to organise anything.
Why would he lie about taking public transport? Why would he suggest he had help?
If he got public transport, as he admitted he did,
why do the investigating authorities have to rush out immediately and invent a cab ride.
You're not making any sense.
As far as the irrelevant detail regarding how Oswald got to his rooming house is concerned, there is no difference between "the lone nut narrative" and an innocent Oswald getting home.
No need for fake cab rides etc.
"Why would even a guilty Mr Oswald have wished to hide the fact that he had gotten a cab?"
A guilty Oswald wouldn't want authorities to know he went back to his rooming house (to collect his gun)
A cab ride can be traced, as can the driver, who can identify Oswald.
A guilty Oswald would try to give the impression he went straight to the Texas Theater as an attempted alibi for the shooting of Tippit.
Walt is the only CTer with the balls to offer up an alternative to the "official" narrative that Oswald did get a bus then a taxi back to the rooming house but that it was a different taxi, not the one driven by Whaley.
This is the only alternative theory the CT community on this forum have come up with.
Not necessarily------- somebody helpful might have given him a lift
Because maybe somebody did give him a lift
::) Whether the interrogation reports are telling the truth on this score is precisely what is at issue in this discussion, Mr O'Meara. Do try to keep up........
That depends on e.g. timeline considerations for the Tippit murder
Huh? The first official interrogation report (Bookhout-Hosty) has Mr Oswald-------the day before he supposedly changes his story and 'admits' to having taken a cab ride--------already telling Captain Fritz he went back to his rooming house. For heaven's sake, Mr O'Meara, think before you post!
Thumb1:
Mr Tom Sorensen writes:Years ago [1975 or so] I bought some books from a lady who had spoken to Frazier.
There's no way around it: to this day, Buell Wesley Frazier has repeatedly been lying about his whereabouts the 22nd after leaving the TSBD.
Years ago [1975 or so] I bought some books from a lady who had spoken to Frazier.
Wes Frazier was only about 19 at the time of the assassination and he told her [she said] that the cops had come down on him really hard...physically and mentally.
So being forced to either "play ball" "or else" it seems that Wes just told the cops and the Commission what he thought they wanted to hear.
After awhile ... and so many years...he started to believe it himself [just like Johnny Brewer with his tale]
Thanks for posting that Jerry.... I also believe that Frazier "just told the cops and the Commission what he thought they wanted to hear. After awhile ... and so many years...he started to believe it himself [just like Johnny Brewer with his tale]
As I recall Frazier said that he now pals around with a couple of the DPD cops. Maybe a true and real friendship did develop, but you can bet those cops were there at Frazier's side to remind him that he'd better keep his moth shut.
Whew. The same Frazier that speaks freely at public events casting doubt on Oswald's guilt. Claiming that Oswald was nice to kids, carried a bag too short to contain the rifle etc. That guy?
Casting doubt on Lee's guilt?? As I see it , Frazier only adds to the mystery..... To my knowledge he has never expressed an opinion about Lee's involvement in the assassination. I believe that if I were in BWF shoes, I would clearly state that I didn't accept the finding of LBJ's Special Select Committee ( The warren commission) and I believe that Lee was railroaded.
I believe that there is a BIG question to be answered about that paper sack that Frazier claims the Lee carried that morning.
Was there in fact such a sack?? Lee Oswald said that he never carried any sack other than his lunch sack....And I strongly suspect that Frazier exaggerated the size of Lee's lunch sack. In another thread just this morning someone raised the question about whether Frazier went to the Irving hospital to visit his step father IMMEDIATELY after leaving the TSBD. I believe that he first went home and talked with his mother and his sister about the astonishing event that was at that moment being broadcast on the TV. Lee was identified as a suspect quite early after the shooting and it would have been natural for Frazier to have speculated about whether Lee was concealing a gun in that large lunch sack. If it's true that Frazier went home before going to the Hospital to visit his step dad ....then that might explain where his sister got the idea that Lee was carrying a long paper sack and she wanted to apprise the police who were at the Paine's house.
So his story is that he is just a good old boy not taking much notice that morning.And that is still his story. But it comes to mind...how did the cops find out so quickly that Frazier was Oswald's ride to work?
Why would Frazier exaggerate the size of Oswald's lunch sack but still insist it was too short to contain the rifle? What purpose does that serve? That seems to be a pointless lie from either the perspective of exonerating Oswald or framing him. If Frazier was under coercion to implicate Oswald, the most obvious thing he confirms is that Oswald carried a bag long enough to contain the rifle. Good grief. And Frazier has indicated that he does not believe Oswald was the assassin or at least that he entertains serious doubt. I believe that is what he said at the Sixth Floor museum a few years ago.
If Frazier has any incentive to not be entirely forthcoming, it is to distance himself from any conclusion that he has any cause to suspect that the person he was driving that morning was the assassin. Thus, he indicates there was no discussion with Oswald of the upcoming motorcade that morning that is going to pass their workplace (the top local news event of the week), or cause to be suspicious of Oswald taking an unscheduled to trip and bringing to work that morning a long, narrow package that a more observant person might suspect is a rifle. So his story is that he is just a good old boy not taking much notice that morning. Driving in blissful silence while listening to the radio (apparently a station not reporting on the motorcade). Probably true but if he has cause to slant the story it is to make himself look as unlikely as possible to have any cause to suspect Oswald was up to something that morning.
Frazier was badgered and threatened with being charged as an accessory that night at the police station. He was told that Lee had said that the sack that he carried that morning did not conceal a gun. Frazier saw no harm in verifying Lee's statement that the cops were telling him...... But in reality Frazier was confirming that Lee was carrying a long paper sack. Then the cops forced him to take a phony lie detector test, and after wards they said that he had passed and the test verified that Lee was carrying a long paper sack. The lie detector test was completely worthless because a test can't be administered to a person who is agitated or distraught. But Frazier didn't know that ( and I doubt that he knows it today) As far as The naive Frazier was concerned he had helped Lee Oswald and freed himself from the accessory charge.
You should take up fiction writing. That is quite a yarn.... Oswald could just as easily have smuggled the rifle into the building the day before. His rifle is found in the building. That is the important fact. They just change the narrative to have Oswald bring the rifle from his boardinghouse on the day before and hide it somewhere.Look who's talking! Just how would Oswald "have easily smuggled a rifle into that building the day before"?
Years ago [1975 or so] I bought some books from a lady who had spoken to Frazier.
Wes Frazier was only about 19 at the time of the assassination and he told her [she said] that the cops had come down on him really hard...physically and mentally.
So being forced to either "play ball" "or else" it seems that Wes just told the cops and the Commission what he thought they wanted to hear.
After awhile ... and so many years...he started to believe it himself [just like Johnny Brewer with his tale]
Interesting, Mr Freeman, thank you Thumb1:
I seriously have to wonder did Mr Frazier give Mr Oswald a ride after the shooting? It would help explain
-the horrors he was put through at City Hall that night
-the unconvincing/inconsistent account he has given over the years of his own post-assassination movements.
-his very late telling of a story of having seen Mr Oswald disappear from sight several minutes after the shooting
Is anyone on the record as having seen or spoken to Mr Frazier on the first floor of the Depository after the shooting? Surely, if Mr Oswald had been noticed absent, Mr Frazier (his closest buddy there and the man who gave him a ride to and from work) would have been the obvious person to check in with.................
Just a thought------------and, by the way, one that assumes no necessarily nefarious intentions or activities on Mr Frazier's part
Look who's talking! Just how would Oswald "have easily smuggled a rifle into that building the day before"?
I know..he hitchhiked to Irving the evening before that and when no one was looking...sneaked into the garage and grabbed the rifle...then somehow got a ride back to downtown [the driver not caring that he had a weapon and has remained silent to this day] where he hid the rifle behind a trash bin at the building then went back to his room [somehow] un-noticed....easy breezy! :-\
Good grief. HA HA HA. Oswald could have taken his rifle to his boardinghouse at any point in the weeks or months before the assassination. Just as he kept his pistol there. All he has to do is carry it to the TSBD on the bus - like he did to the Walker scene - on any day that week.
Mr Ford, I would consider your idea ( that Frazier gave Lee I ride to oakcliff after the shooting) as a possibility except Lee said that he took a CITY cab to the rooming house and he paid a fare of 85 cents. He knew the taxi fare and that for me clinches his statement that he rode in a CITY cab to the rooming house.
Why would Frazier exaggerate the size of Oswald's lunch sack but still insist it was too short to contain the rifle?
Way to hedge your bets, Mr Smith! :D
Of course, all Mr Oswald has to do for the document below to be explained is bring curtain rods to the Depository in Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's car the morning of the assassination
(https://i.imgur.com/jyb7Wgn.jpg)
Oswald could have taken his rifle to his boardinghouse at any point in the weeks or months before the assassination. Just as he kept his pistol there. All he has to do is carry it to the TSBD on the bus - like he did to the Walker scene - on any day that week.You are the one who said "the day before" now it is weeks before? And Oswald kept it under the bed? [Housekeeping would never find it there ::)] Then why all the brewhaha about Oswald needing to ride out that Thursday evening with Frazier [to supposedly get the rifle]?
Interesting, Mr Freeman, thank you Thumb1:
I seriously have to wonder did Mr Frazier give Mr Oswald a ride after the shooting? It would help explain
-the horrors he was put through at City Hall that night
-the unconvincing/inconsistent account he has given over the years of his own post-assassination movements.
-his very late telling of a story of having seen Mr Oswald disappear from sight several minutes after the shooting
Is anyone on the record as having seen or spoken to Mr Frazier on the first floor of the Depository after the shooting? Surely, if Mr Oswald had been noticed absent, Mr Frazier (his closest buddy there and the man who gave him a ride to and from work) would have been the obvious person to check in with.................
Just a thought------------and, by the way, one that assumes no necessarily nefarious intentions or activities on Mr Frazier's part
Could Oswald have gotten his rifle into the building prior to 11.22 or not? The rifle is found there. As a result, it must have been brought there by someone. If you don't believe Oswald brought it that morning, then by necessity you are claiming someone (whether Oswald or someone else) got the rifle into the building unnoticed. Therefore, you must believe that it was possible for the rifle to be smuggled into the building prior to the assassination. Oswald could do that as well as any fantasy conspirator. In fact, because he worked in the building he would not arose suspicion and know where it could best be hidden. All of this to point out only that it was not necessary from a conspiracy perspective to have any witness confirm that Oswald brought his rifle on 11.22. Only that the his rifle was there.
You are the one who said "the day before" now it is weeks before? And Oswald kept it under the bed? [Housekeeping would never find it there ::)] Then why all the brewhaha about Oswald needing to ride out that Thursday evening with Frazier [to supposedly get the rifle]?
Again, Richard Smith has chased his tail into a corner.
You are the one who said "the day before" now it is weeks before? And Oswald kept it under the bed? [Housekeeping would never find it there ::)] Then why all the brewhaha about Oswald needing to ride out that Thursday evening with Frazier [to supposedly get the rifle]?
Again, Richard Smith has chased his tail into a corner.
In fact, it is CTers that argue that someone somehow smuggled the MC rifle into the building unnoticed.
Interesting, Mr Freeman, thank you Thumb1:
I seriously have to wonder did Mr Frazier give Mr Oswald a ride after the shooting? It would help explain
-the horrors he was put through at City Hall that night
-the unconvincing/inconsistent account he has given over the years of his own post-assassination movements.
-his very late telling of a story of having seen Mr Oswald disappear from sight several minutes after the shooting
Is anyone on the record as having seen or spoken to Mr Frazier on the first floor of the Depository after the shooting? Surely, if Mr Oswald had been noticed absent, Mr Frazier (his closest buddy there and the man who gave him a ride to and from work) would have been the obvious person to check in with.................
Just a thought------------and, by the way, one that assumes no necessarily nefarious intentions or activities on Mr Frazier's part
In an interview earlier this year---------------
---------------Mr Frazier says that after leaving the Depository he drove to the hospital where his stepfather was a patient. Within minutes of arriving in his stepfather's room, he was arrested. Time: approx 2pm
Mr Frazier was not in fact picked up at the hospital until around 6:30pm.
It's kinda hard to believe that Mr Frazier spent 4+ hours by his stepfather's side and subsequently remembered these 4+ hours as a matter of minutes!
Something VERY off here...........
Yes, Frazier's interview should have been broadcast as " Story time" ..... He's so full of BS now that it's like trying to pick gnat sh t from pepper.... It's a shame that Frazier enjoys being questioned by the gullible suckers that don't know much about the event. Everything he now says will be recorded as the truth.....What a shame.
Frazier's interview should have been broadcast as " Story time" ..Everything he now says will be recorded as the truth.If so, then his book "Steering Truth" would be an accurate title :-\
If so, then his book "Steering Truth" would be an accurate title :-\
Preview link------
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Steering_Truth/b5A2EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT7&printsec=frontcover
Befriending Ruth Paine should tell you a thing or two....
This book was probably his last chance to come clean before he checks out.
I would like to see some Fritz notes on the Frazier interview!
"Now"? Has he ever given a reasonable account of what he was doing during the 5+ hours between his leaving Dealey Plaza and his being picked up at the hospital?
According to a March '64 FBI interview report, Mr Frazier claimed he went directly home after leaving his workplace..........
Scenario!
Mr Oswald in custody tells Captain Fritz
-I was on the front steps when the shooting happened
-I left the area in Wesley's car
Later that evening, Mr Frazier is picked up and
-confirms that Lee was out on the steps
-confirms that he drove Lee after the shooting
Now! If both Mr Oswald and Mr Frazier have described a post-assassination car journey that rules him out as the shooter of Officer Tippit, then the 'investigating' authorities have a very big problem indeed, for here is a witness who can singlehandedly exonerate Mr Oswald as the shooter of Pres. Kennedy AND of Officer Tippit
Mr Frazier is duly threatened with a conspiracy charge, and only let go once he has agreed to stay mute on Mr Oswald's double alibi for the shootings the 'investigating' authorities want to nail him for
Fritz...OK, Mr Frazier so you drove Lee to the rooming house in Oakcliff then did you wait outside while lee changed his clothes and did you then give Lee a ride to Patton and Jefferson?.....C'mon now Mr Frazier, Mr Oswald has told us that this is what happened....
~Yawn~
Not the scenario I outlined, Mr Cakebread
So you see the absurdity of your theory, huh, Mr. Ford?
Unnoticed, lol.
(https://i.imgur.com/6YZ6Y47.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kHQbE75.jpg)
So you see the absurdity of your theory, huh, Mr. Ford?
Both of you combined with your ridiculous allegations are just muddying the waters and if I was trying to cover something up, you two dingbats would be the precise people that I would employ! Well done.
JoHnM
How did they find out about the cab ride? I don't think Oswald told them. Did Whaley see Oswald on TV and call the authorities?Whaley said he saw the picture of Oswald in the paper the next day and told his boss/superior at the cab company that he had given Oswald a ride. He said his superior called the police and they came down and got him.
How did they find out about the cab ride? I don't think Oswald told them. Did Whaley see Oswald on TV and call the authorities?
Both of you combined with your ridiculous allegations are just muddying the waters and if I was trying to cover something up, you two dingbats would be the precise people that I would employ! Well done.
JoHnM
How did they find out about the cab ride?
(https://i.imgur.com/08eOykR.jpg)
Perhaps once they realized that a bus ride alone wouldn't work?
Sidenote: Mr Cecil McWatters ID'd Mr Oswald--------------not as the man to whom he gave a transfer but as the young man who turned out to be Mr Roy Milton Jones (below). Mr McWatters made the right ID but for the wrong man! :D
(https://i.imgur.com/08eOykR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2mBKim5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NfjzmNO.jpg)
Mr Ford, I know that you're bent on showing that Buell Frazier gave Lee a ride to he rooming house after the assassination. So please explain how BWF could have been at the TSBD for roll call at about 1:00Pm and dropping Lee off at the rooming house at 1:00pm .... Was BWF superman?
Prove Mr Frazier was at any such roll call! Thumb1:
C'mon Ford.... If Frazier hadn't been there for roll call he would have been reported as missing just Like Lee was reported missing.The "Roll Call" was just another invention. It was devised to make an absentee Oswald a fugitive on the run----
You may recall that he DPD tried to railroad BWF as an accessory.....If he hadn't been there for roll call he'd have been held in the cross bar hotel instead of being released that night.
The "Roll Call" was just another invention. It was devised to make an absentee Oswald a fugitive on the run----
I feel sorry for the gullible who accept the Report as the word of God and believe that the DPD was honest and straightforward and would never lie to cover up their blunders and complicity.
http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/
Show where Roy Truly testified as to any roll call.
Roll call or no roll call...Admission that you possibly read that link [though I doubt it] and admit that this roll call was an actual fabrication.
C'mon Ford.... If Frazier hadn't been there for roll call he would have been reported as missing just Like Lee was reported missing.
You may recall that he DPD tried to railroad BWF as an accessory.....If he hadn't been there for roll call he'd have been held in the cross bar hotel instead of being released that night.
The "Roll Call" was just another invention. It was devised to make an absentee Oswald a fugitive on the run----
I feel sorry for the gullible who accept the Report as the word of God and believe that the DPD was honest and straightforward and would never lie to cover up their blunders and complicity.
http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/
Show where Roy Truly testified as to any roll call.
Just another invention??
Everything is an invention or a hoax. It's all a bit silly.
I read the article and, knowing how genuinely crazy most of the CT community is, was not very surprised by the Kent Biffle interview:
". . . only two of us [reporters] had arrived at the ambush building [ the Depository] by this point. . . . Getting in was no problem. I just hid my press badge . . . and went in with the first wave of cops. . . . Hours dragged by. The building superintendent showed up with some papers in his hand. I listened as he told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a roll call. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call ..."
Biffle recalls the superintendent (Truly) telling the police about a roll call in an article entitled: "The roll call inside the TSBD never happened."
unfuckingbelievable
Later, in the same article Harold Norman, confirms there was some kind of head count:
Q: …that worked there, they was making some kind of head count?
Norman: Right.
Q: Was that right?
Norman: Yes.
Obviously, in the cuckoo CT world a 'head count' is completely different to a 'roll call'
Admission that you possibly read that link [though I doubt it] and admit that this roll call was an actual fabrication.
But then you must have learned that here-----
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,625.msg12544.html#msg12544
Just another invention??
Everything is an invention or a hoax. It's all a bit silly.
I read the article and, knowing how genuinely crazy most of the CT community is, was not very surprised by the Kent Biffle interview:
". . . only two of us [reporters] had arrived at the ambush building [ the Depository] by this point. . . . Getting in was no problem. I just hid my press badge . . . and went in with the first wave of cops. . . . Hours dragged by. The building superintendent showed up with some papers in his hand. I listened as he told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a roll call. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call ..."
Biffle recalls the superintendent (Truly) telling the police about a roll call in an article entitled: "The roll call inside the TSBD never happened."
unfuckingbelievable
Later, in the same article Harold Norman, confirms there was some kind of head count:
Q: …that worked there, they was making some kind of head count?
Norman: Right.
Q: Was that right?
Norman: Yes.
Obviously, in the cuckoo CT world a 'head count' is completely different to a 'roll call'
It is a measure of how little support there is for the notion of the invented roll call that the author of the article has to use multiple testimonies demonstrating the roll call did indeed take place.
But it is your blind willingness to suck this sh*t up and happily regurgitate it that really impresses.
And then accuse others of being gullible?? :D
Priceless.
Just another invention??
Everything is an invention or a hoax. It's all a bit silly.
I read the article and, knowing how genuinely crazy most of the CT community is, was not very surprised by the Kent Biffle interview:
". . . only two of us [reporters] had arrived at the ambush building [ the Depository] by this point. . . . Getting in was no problem. I just hid my press badge . . . and went in with the first wave of cops. . . . Hours dragged by. The building superintendent showed up with some papers in his hand. I listened as he told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a roll call. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call ..."
Biffle recalls the superintendent (Truly) telling the police about a roll call in an article entitled: "The roll call inside the TSBD never happened."
unfuckingbelievable
Later, in the same article Harold Norman, confirms there was some kind of head count:
Q: …that worked there, they was making some kind of head count?
Norman: Right.
Q: Was that right?
Norman: Yes.
Obviously, in the cuckoo CT world a 'head count' is completely different to a 'roll call'
It is a measure of how little support there is for the notion of the invented roll call that the author of the article has to use multiple testimonies demonstrating the roll call did indeed take place.
But it is your blind willingness to suck this sh*t up and happily regurgitate it that really impresses.
And then accuse others of being gullible?? :D
Priceless.
Everything is an invention or a hoax.Not everything. Some things are an absolute lie.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
knowing how genuinely crazy most of the CT community isI suppose that was supposed to mean me :o
it is your blind willingness to suck this sh*t up and happily regurgitate it that really impresses.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
Shelly signed off that HE was the one who first missed Oswald after the shooting...ran and told Truly.
Whether there was a roll call or not.... Buell Frazier DID NOT transport Lee Oswald to the rooming house from the TSBD.
I didn't know you were sitting in the back of the Chevrolet, Mr Cakebread. It's an honor to know you, sir-----------a living witness to history!!
Unnoticed, lol
(https://i.imgur.com/6YZ6Y47.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kHQbE75.jpg)
If the driver were parked behind the pergola during the shooting, heSomeone parked behind the pergola would not have seen the parade at all so how could they have seen the assassination? [Unless they got out and walked to the front SW corner of the bldg]
would have been a witness not only to the assassination, but also to any
suspicious activity behind the fence in the car lot and railroad yard
area. Why wasn't he questioned?
Was just looking through Sorrels WC testimony and this stood out:
"And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw the people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there at the police station. And we were just waiting around there."
I was thinking I'd heard "Honest Joe" recently and remembered your Mary Hall post. I did a little digging and found this article:
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk.narkive.com/tJPjMOsg/honest-joe-s-pawn-shop-truck
I've you've not read it before I think you might enjoy it.
A few years back, Mr Frazier stunned folks with his story of seeing Mr Oswald a few minutes after the shooting by the Houston St. side of the Depository.
More recently, he has told of seeing a man with a rifle just after the shooting.
Let's assume for a moment these stories are not spun out of thin air but have some basis in fact................
IF the man-with-the-rifle story is true, then Mr Frazier may have been so freaked out (at what he saw + at having been eyeballed by the man) that he decided to leave immediately
IF the LHO-on-Houston story has some basis in fact, then Mr Frazier may have encountered Mr Oswald there, got talking with him, told him he was leaving------------and agreed to give his friend a ride out of downtown
These are of course big IFS, but one matter has no Ifs or Buts about it: Mr Frazier has NOT given an even halfway credible account of his post-assassination movements in the time leading up to his arrest at the hospital. This is pretty serious, as he is not just another Depository employee: he is the man who gave Mr Oswald rides to and from his place of work
Thumb1:
Much obliged, Mr O'Meara! Thumb1:
Ms Hall saw 'Honest Joe's' Edsel station wagon
This is also worth checking out.
Note the bit about Fritz.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48769#relPageId=46
Not everything. Some things are an absolute lie. (https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
Shelly signed off that HE was the one who first missed Oswald after the shooting...ran and told Truly.
Truly swore that it was HE who noticed Oswald was missing and conversely advised Shelly ::)
So they went and told each other? :D
Also...A bullet and rifle and shirt fibers and blanket threads and pictures of a guy with rifle and pistol commando style... all collected, connected, analyzed and summed up by the FBI overnight. How tidy.
Why wasn't JFK protected with the same diligence? :-\
I suppose that was supposed to mean me :o
I admit to being "genuine"... I might even be "crazy"...but I am certainly not any part of "most of the CT community." What the hell is that anyway?
Friends, I believe Mr Frazier is INNOCENT of any wrongdoing in this case. However, he knows a great deal more than he is saying. He knows Mr Oswald is innocent, but cannot come out with the full story. For many years, the best he could do was insist at every opportunity that the bag/package he saw that morning was too small to carry a rifle. But more recently he has dropped more and more tidbits of information, pieces of the jigsaw--------------in a sincere but hopelessly indirect attempt to see his friend's name cleared.
Another example of this is his recent mention of what he heard re. the supposed lunchroom encounter: on the table beside Mr Oswald was a partially eaten cheese sandwich and a coke. Mr Oswald is indeed supposed to have mentioned these very lunch items in interrogation. I believe however that Mr Frazier didn't HEAR about these items, he SAW them in Mr Oswald's hands at the time of the P. Parade...............
Mr. Frazier is getting up there in years so hopefully he will document what he knows and not take it to the grave with him.
Frazier documented everything he knew a long time ago.
His later claims pay the bills.
I believe that you're right, Dan...... But that ticks me off.... BWF is adding more crap to the story, and who needs it?
Your buffoonish gaffe of introducing an article about how there was no roll call that includes multiple testimonies confirming there was such a roll call
Frazier's life has been defined by the events of that day.
He has been hounded for decades by arseholes with their pet theories.
Why not get a payday out of it?
Your buffoonish gaffe of introducing an article about how there was no roll call that includes multiple testimonies confirming there was such a roll call is also another classic bit of Tinfoilism. There is plenty of testimonial evidence that such a roll call/head count took place."Buffoon? Tinfoil? Whatever. But heckling adds nothing to to the subject.
The question is - was Truly throwing Oswald under the bus before the roll call even happened?
Truly had already seen Oswald in the building after the assassination so why would he assume he was missing?
Givens, who actually worked on the 6th floor that day, was also missing so why not make a call about him?
The Ted Hughes footage has Lovelady, Bonnie Ray and, possibly, Hank Norman outside the TSBD around the time the roll call was supposed to be happening.
The men working under Truly weren't the only people working in the TSBD that day. Many never made it back inside the TSBD after the assassination. Why weren't they suspects?
The speed with which Oswald is singled out is uncanny.
The earliest reference to any kind of roll call comes from Sorrel's WC testimony:
Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
The speed with which Oswald is singled out is uncanny.That's exactly what the roll call fiasco claims...and exactly what I think.
Sorrel's WC testimonyYou supplied no corroboration...no Commission testimony from the building super. Because there is none.
Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey Oswald after you saw them?Yet the defenders of the Report assert that afterwards, this cool calm and collected Lee spooked and cut out of the building in total panic escape mode.
Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?
Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?
Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.
A few years back, Mr Frazier stunned folks with his story of seeing Mr Oswald a few minutes after the shooting by the Houston St. side of the Depository.
More recently, he has told of seeing a man with a rifle just after the shooting.
Let's assume for a moment these stories are not spun out of thin air but have some basis in fact................
IF the man-with-the-rifle story is true, then Mr Frazier may have been so freaked out (at what he saw + at having been eyeballed by the man) that he decided to leave immediately
IF the LHO-on-Houston story has some basis in fact, then Mr Frazier may have encountered Mr Oswald there, got talking with him, told him he was leaving------------and agreed to give his friend a ride out of downtown
These are of course big IFS, but one matter has no Ifs or Buts about it: Mr Frazier has NOT given an even halfway credible account of his post-assassination movements in the time leading up to his arrest at the hospital. This is pretty serious, as he is not just another Depository employee: he is the man who gave Mr Oswald rides to and from his place of work
Thumb1:
"...but I am certainly not any part of "most of the CT community." What the hell is that anyway?"
The CT community/Tinfoil Brigade consists of people who make such statements as:
"Not everything [is an invention or a hoax]. Some things are an absolute lie."
And you are a fully paid up member.
Your buffoonish gaffe of introducing an article about how there was no roll call that includes multiple testimonies confirming there was such a roll call is also another classic bit of Tinfoilism. There is plenty of testimonial evidence that such a roll call/head count took place.
The question is - was Truly throwing Oswald under the bus before the roll call even happened?
Truly had already seen Oswald in the building after the assassination so why would he assume he was missing?
Givens, who actually worked on the 6th floor that day, was also missing so why not make a call about him?
The Ted Hughes footage has Lovelady, Bonnie Ray and, possibly, Hank Norman outside the TSBD around the time the roll call was supposed to be happening.
The men working under Truly weren't the only people working in the TSBD that day. Many never made it back inside the TSBD after the assassination. Why weren't they suspects?
The speed with which Oswald is singled out is uncanny.
The earliest reference to any kind of roll call comes from Sorrel's WC testimony:
Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.
The claim is that there was no early roll call in which Mr Oswald emerged as the employee who was uniquely and suspiciously missing
"Buffoon? Tinfoil? Whatever. But heckling adds nothing to to the subject.That's exactly what the roll call fiasco claims...and exactly what I think.You supplied no corroboration...no Commission testimony from the building super. Because there is none.
Review---
Yet the defenders of the Report assert that afterwards, this cool calm and collected Lee spooked and cut out of the building in total panic escape mode.
Truly could have said that Oswald looked shaken and scared [as was mentioned 'thrown under the bus']
You re-posted the Truly/Shelley affidavits...Did you read them?
In his testimony...Truly did not mention roll call, FBI, Secret Service or Forrest Sorrels concerning the date of the assassination. Isn't it possible that Sorrels' statement is just pure fiction? This guy was the SA in charge of the Dallas Secret Service and just covering his backside and he should have been fired on the spot for dereliction of duty. But we had a president at the time who chose to keep him around :-\
In response to the statement just made---there were others who reported seeing a man in a suit carrying a rifle.
Later, in the same article Harold Norman, confirms there was some kind of head count:In the zeal to blast the skeptics is there any consideration that the Norman statement was 13 years afterwards? The Biffle statement was in 1982?..almost 20 years later?QuoteQ: …that worked there, they was making some kind of head count?Obviously, in the cuckoo CT world a 'head count' is completely different to a 'roll call'
Norman: Right.
Q: Was that right?
Norman: Yes.
How much does this add to the subject - "Not everything [is an invention or a hoax]. Some things are an absolute lie."Shetloads.
Is there anything you don't consider to be an invention/hoax/fiction?What a stupid question.
Obviously, in the cuckoo CT world a 'head count' is completely different to a 'roll call'In the zeal to blast the skeptics is there any consideration that the Norman statement was 13 years afterwards? The Biffle statement was in 1982?..almost 20 years later?
How come Lee Oswald is the first name on this list of two pages that were supposedly made [for some reason] on that day by Jack Revill ? [it looks like]
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway1.jpg?w=1500)
-- Thumb1: Right! A frame-up looks even here on all corners.
How come Oswald has a listed address as 605 Elsbeth? How did Revill know that Oswald had once lived there previously?
There was nothing more criminal than the Dallas Criminal Division.Shetloads.What a stupid question.
And O'meara..if you don't like my posts then don't read them.
Now---------------------Quiz Time!
All the people, EXCEPT ONE, on the list below either worked in the Texas School Book Depository or were in the building shortly after the assassination:
(https://i.imgur.com/kboy6kV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/z5CqXla.jpg)
Question! Which name is the odd one out?
Thumb1:
I see nothing wrong with BWF picking up some pieces of silver for talking to reporters or whoever....but He doesn't need to keep adding the stupid stories of his involvement.....like the tale of the well dressed man with a rifle... Frazier must think that he was the only person there when actually there were dozens of spectators standing around who would also have seen the man with the rifle.
IF the LHO-on-Houston story has some basis in fact, then Mr Frazier may have encountered Mr Oswald there, got talking with him, told him he was leaving------------and agreed to give his friend a ride out of downtown
]IF the LHO-on-Houston story has some basis in fact,
I don't believe Frazier's tale..... It's one of his latter day tales....And it's simply BS.
The article was entitled "The roll call inside the TSBD never happened."
The claim is that there was no roll call, early or otherwise.
Peggy Bigler Hawkins.
I assume this is a list of TSBD employees left in the building after it was locked down (so Oswald's name shouldn't be there)
It is curious that the names of Gloria Calvery, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks and Karen Westbrook don't appear on the list.
Linnie Mae Randle.
Crossed out.
Supporting role?
The fact that Mr Walt Cakebread doesn't believe X does not make X BS. Especially when Mr Cakebread believes plenty of things that are BS (e.g. Mr Oswald hid in the domino room shower!)
Mr Cakebread believes plenty of things that are BS (e.g. Mr Oswald hid in the domino room shower!)
Do you have information that proves that Lee didn't step out of sight by ducking into the shower when Jarman and Norman passed by?....
Yes----------not an employee, and (as far as we know) nowhere near the building during any of the time in question. Sister, of course, of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier. What the heck is she doing on this list?
But also with a check mark beside her name
Cf?..............
Mr FRAZIER: They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
Huh?
I continue to suspect that Mr Frazier got permission from Mr Shelley or Mr Truly to leave earlier than others (and prior to the police lockdown), citing his (hated!) stepfather's medical situation-------------but he did NOT go straight to the hospital. Hence the wild discrepancy between his own time estimate for his arrest (ca. 2 pm) and the actual time (ca.6.30 pm). There are missing HOURS here, and they need 'splainin'!
Do you have information that proves that Mr Oswald wasn't canoodling with Mr Jack Dougherty when Messrs Jarman and Norman passed by?.... Mr Oswald didn't want to be seen at that time and he didn't know if Messrs Jarman and Norman might enter the Domino room.....
Yes----------not an employee, and (as far as we know) nowhere near the building during any of the time in question. Sister, of course, of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier. What the heck is she doing on this list?
Where does it say that?
Frazier documented everything he knew a long time ago.
His later claims pay the bills.
The title - "The roll call inside the TSBD never happened." ::)
:D :D :D
"Documented everything" you say? That's ridiculous because you are not Mr. Frazier and have no clue that "everything was documented".
Just another blanket statement to dismiss the fact that Mr. Frazier has not told everything that he knows to the public.
:D :D :D
"Documented everything" you say? That's ridiculous because you are not Mr. Frazier and have no clue that "everything was documented".
Just another blanket statement to dismiss the fact that Mr. Frazier has not told everything that he knows to the public.
Why was Mr Frazier arrested, his car searched and his Enfield rifle taken from his place of residence? For driving a man to work, as he had done several times before?
LOL. Maybe because he drove the person suspected of assassinating the president along with his gun to TSBD that morning. He wasn't "arrested" but like many people questioned to determine what he knew about the events of that day.
:D :D :D
"Documented everything" you say? That's ridiculous because you are not Mr. Frazier and have no clue that "everything was documented".
Just another blanket statement to dismiss the fact that Mr. Frazier has not told everything that he knows to the public.
No, the title--------as has already been explained-----------refers to THE roll call that supposedly identified Mr Oswald as uniquely and suspiciously missing ~1 pm. That never happened.
Therefore, the claim is NOT, as you have claimed, "that there was no roll call, early or otherwise"
BS:
There is nothing in the article that "-refers to THE roll call that supposedly identified Mr Oswald as uniquely and suspiciously missing ~1 pm. That never happened."
You have simply made this up (as per usual)
But there was a roll call, a taking of names, the question is, was Truly throwing Oswald under the bus before the roll call?
was Truly throwing Oswald under the bus before the roll call?
Is there any doubt?
LOL. Maybe because he drove the person suspected of assassinating the president along with his gun to TSBD that morning. He wasn't "arrested" but....Man-- you are so losing it. When the police come and get you and they take you to their place of employment and sit you down and grill you over a like open fire for a long long time...that is definitely under arrest buddy!
was Truly throwing Oswald under the bus before the roll call?Walt because we got off topic= bus and taxi... I started a thread on this alleged roll call. O'meara says there was one...he was there.
Is there any doubt?
Yeah Walt, there is some doubt.
When Truly goes up to tell Fritz Oswald is missing he finds him near the elevator on the 6th floor which suggests the rifle has already been found. this is the best part of an hour after the assassination.
Somewhere in all the testimonies there is a detail that nails how soon Truly has decided to throw Oswald under the bus but I can't find it...yet.
Yeah Walt, there is some doubt.
When Truly goes up to tell Fritz Oswald is missing he finds him near the elevator on the 6th floor which suggests the rifle has already been found. this is the best part of an hour after the assassination.
Somewhere in all the testimonies there is a detail that nails how soon Truly has decided to throw Oswald under the bus but I can't find it...yet.
Man-- you are so losing it. When the police come and get you and they take you to their place of employment and sit you down and grill you over a like open fire for a long long time...that is definitely under arrest buddy!
Oh and you said "maybe"? Admission that there was sorted chance that Oswald did not take a gun to work after all? LOL
David ?
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-767.html
Why was Whaley quoted on the day of the assassination, talking about his passenger log being in "15 minute increments," unless he, himself, had already had to defend it as supporting his claim Oswald had been his passenger?
Whaley's WC testimony, months later...
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm
"...Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own words what he did?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at the Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes?
Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction.
Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the one up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this 12:15 to 12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at 1:15 to 1:30 and it goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time keeps pretty approximate.
Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me about that, what the passenger said.
Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?"..."
Witnesses often are taken or go to the police station for questioning. Dozens were questioned along with Frazier. That's how an investigation is conducted. Frazier went home afterward unlike someone who is arrested for a crime. He was a material witness. Frazier may not have liked how he was treated but he was not charged or put in a jail cell under arrest. He was questioned. That can lead to an arrest but the mere fact that he was brought to the police station doesn't necessarily mean he was under arrest. Did he protest or ask not to be taken there? He appears to have gone voluntarily which would be understandable thing to do since he was innocent of any crime expect perhaps not being very perceptive.
Witnesses often are taken or go to the police station for questioning.Witnesses? Yeah they do in the old '40s and '50s movies but in reality.. interviews are most often done at businesses and homes.
BS:
There is nothing in the article that "-refers to THE roll call that supposedly identified Mr Oswald as uniquely and suspiciously missing ~1 pm. That never happened."
You have simply made this up (as per usual)
He was arrested at the hospital. Read the reports, Mr Smith!
I have been debating with Alan J. about Oswald's short bus trip and Otto also wants to engage me on Whaley's time line and it seems to me that the CT's in their overzealousness to prove everything a fabrication that they are overlooking the fact that Oswald using public transport or private commercial transportation as opposed to what can only amount to a getaway car doesn't advance their conspiracy even one bit. Alan J. wants me to believe that Oswald exiting Dealey Plaza via public-transportation was manufactured and thus for reasons known only to himself, somehow is evidence of a conspiracy but what is the alternative?
"The reason why the bus trip to nowhere was invented was for the following reason: to plant manufactured "evidence", a bus-transfer to imply the wrongly-accused left Dealey Plaza via public-transportation."
What part of that answer don't you understand, Mr. Mytton?
Alan J. Ford.
We know Oswald was at the Depository at about 12:33 and at the Texas Theatre a little over an hour later and if Oswald didn't use publicly available transport to get to the general vicinity of the theatre then how the heck did he get there? The following response of mine is based on what was a commonly held CT belief that Roger Craig saw Oswald running from the Depository and as I indicate the timing of this encounter strongly suggests Oswald being involved.
"The evidence that may lead to some sort of alternate method of conveyance is Roger Craig's testimony that about 14 to 15 minutes after the first shot he observed what he believes was Oswald running toward a station wagon being driven by a very dark complected man but unfortunately for the Oswald defenders this opens a serious new can of worms. According to Truly, Oswald's lunch break was between 12:00 to 12:45, meaning that unless this meeting was pure coincidence then this rendezvous was prearranged for the very end of Oswald's lunch break and how could Oswald possibly know beforehand that the President would be shot and thereafter work would be abandoned, unless he was involved?"
JohnM
Mr. BELIN - Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Fourteen or 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN - Fourteen or 15 minutes?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Was this, you mean, after the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG - After the---from the time I heard the first shot.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Your heard someone whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes. So I turned and--uh-saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.
After Alan J.'s seeming disinterest in my Roger Craig analysis, I presented the following post which explains the possible repercussions of the alternative to using Public Transport.
"So you believe that Oswald didn't use public transport to leave Dallas, interesting, then the only other alternatives that I see are that Oswald walked/jogged/ran/sprinted which is all highly unlikely or Oswald drove himself and without owning a car that's pretty difficult, or the point I raised which you haven't yet had the courage to confront because you must realize it's devastating significance, is that Oswald used an accomplice's getaway car to get himself and this unidentified accomplice away from the scene of the crime, an accomplice who just dumped Oswald off at the Texas Theatre, are you sure you want to pursue this particular narrative because it flies in the face of your claim that Oswald was wrongly accused?"
JohnM
I am open to any other plausible explanation of how Oswald got to the Theatre, and if not innocently by public transport then how?
EDIT I was going to put a clause into this OP but I thought I made it clear that we have had enough discussion in the CT's belief that the bus and cab rides didn't take place because this continual denial doesn't answer the question of how Oswald got to the Texas Theatre. If you want to debate Bledsoe, McWatter's or Whaley and ask endless questions then make your own thread but if you want to move forward and confront what denying the usage of public transport actually means and where it leads then please make a contribution otherwise please don't participate.
JohnM
At What time was BWF arrested?
According to the official reports, ~6-6.30 pm
Do you believe that BWF was at the hospital from about 1:45 until about 6:00 pm? Around 5 hours?
No!
He was arrested at the hospital. Read the reports, Mr Smith!
The reports? LOL. Did he go home after being questioned or was he thrown into jail? These rabbit holes are hilarious. Was there a roll call - cue sinister music. Was Frazier arrested - cue sinister music. All the while Oswald's rifle is laying on the floor from which the shots were fired. But we must obsess over pedantic details like this.
All the while Oswald's rifle is laying on the floor from which the shots were fired.
There a couple of gross inaccuracies in this statement....
Oswald's rifle..... He denied that he owned a rifle..... And it's never been proven that he did in fact OWN the rifle.
"The floor from which the shots were fired"..... This is a gross lie.... here were no shots fired from the sixth floor....
Oswald's rifle..... He denied that he owned a rifle..... And it's never been proven that he did in fact OWN the rifle.
"The floor from which the shots were fired"..... This is a gross lie.... here were no shots fired from the sixth floor....
(https://i.postimg.cc/nc7stJNg/purchase-of-rifle-documents-oswald.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CycbPrJ/ce133b.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8sN4Sm3/Rifle-Found-In-TSBDFrom-Alyea-Filmk.jpg)
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.
Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
JohnM
Mr Dear Mr M.....You have posted documents that indicate that Lee ordered a rifle from Klein's sporting goods.....Errrrk [screech of tires] No it doesn't! It shows that a one--- A Hidell presumably ordered a rifle--- the exact model which was not found in the book building.
Errrrk [screech of tires] No it doesn't! It shows that a one--- A Hidell presumably ordered a rifle--- the exact model which was not found in the book building.
Perhaps we disagree.....I believe that Lee used the name Hidell on the order blank.....You wrote that the documents "indicate" what they actually didn't and advanced a theory.
You wrote that the documents "indicate" what they actually didn't and advanced a theory.
I advanced no theory. Just facts---Hidell on the order...different model found.
If it is so obvious that Oswald ordered the rifle...why would he use a phony name then ? [as it apparently fooled no one]
It is presumed that Oswald was some kind of a maniacal derelict. Too much of a cover-up to accept that.
Errrrk [screech of tires] No it doesn't! It shows that a one--- A Hidell presumably ordered a rifle--- the exact model which was not found in the book building.
Wrong again Jerry, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Kleins sent Oswald C20-T750.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6JLCWPj/Riflead1.jpg)
The rifle found on the 6th floor has the same serial number that Kleins sent Oswald.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXj4Lg2Y/C2766isinevidence.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/halcyonrealms.com/blogpics/slamdunknew01.jpg?resize=500%2C780)
JohnM
The length of the rifle in the klein ad is irrelevant .....
Not entirely, I think that Oswald believed he was sent a 36 inch rifle and subsequently manufactured his rifle carry bag to suit a 36 inch rifle and when Oswald tried to fit his 40 inch rifle into his 38 inch rifle carry bag he realized that the only way to fit the rifle was to disassemble the rifle, the look on Oswald's face when he initially found out that he fcuked up would have been priceless.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k522gV5M/38-inch-ag-for-36-inch-rifle.jpg)
JohnM
I think that Oswald believed he was sent a 36 inch rifle and subsequently manufactured his rifle carry bag to suit a 36 inch rifle
What a stupid idea!...... Do you actually believe that Lee couldn't have measured the rifle If he planned to manufacture a paper sack??? LOL! :D
Wrong again Jerry, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Kleins sent Oswald C20-T750.Hidell supposedly ordered C20-T750 a 36"...a 40" version was supposedly sent/received by someone. You knew perfectly well what I meant. This theory that you have about some gun case being improperly made by Oswald-- displays a fantastic gaslight obsession beyond description. Quit playing gotcha. It ain't working.
Hidell supposedly ordered C20-T750 a 36"...a 40" version was supposedly sent/received by someone. You knew perfectly well what I meant. This theory that you have about some gun case being improperly made by Oswald-- displays a fantastic gaslight obsession beyond description. Quit playing gotcha. It ain't working.
Oswald would show up at work with a full length rifle! ??? :D
Hidell supposedly ordered C20-T750 a 36"...a 40" version was supposedly sent/received by someone.
Quit playing gotcha.
It ain't working.
Oswald would show up at work with a full length rifle!
Many of the Warren Commission apologists contend that Klein's shipped a 40" rifle in lieu of the advertised rifle because they had run out of the 36's. But the evidence so far indicates otherwise. In order to believe that the 40" rifle was shipped to "A. Hidell" in place of the 36" rifle, you must believe ALL of the following:
a.) That Klein's shipped a different rifle without notifying the customer that the rifle he ordered was out of stock.
b.) That Klein's shipped a different rifle than ordered without giving the customer the option of a refund.
c.) That Klein's shipped a different rifle than ordered and used the wrong item number on the manifest.
d.) That Klein's shipped a rifle that had not been advertised for sale and continued to advertise a rifle that they no longer had.
If the rifle depicted in the famous "backyard photographs" is the rifle that "A.Hidell" ordered, then the rifle removed from the Texas School Book Depository is not. The reason is that the rifle in CE 134 ( an enlargement of CE 133-A ) shows a rifle with a front bottom sling mount, whereas the rifle removed from the Depository is a rifle with side sling mounts.
The rifle got into the building somehow and isn't it sensible that the rifle was in the rifle sized bag? DUH!
But I guess as usual you haven't got a clue!
Here's a photo of Oswald's rifle bag sitting on top of the boxes surrounding Oswald's sniper's nest. How about that!
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnsPxpdT/oswald-s-bag-in-the-snipers-nest.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXffgMjB/Oswald-s-rifle-bag-in-nesta.jpg)
JohnM
...is the fact that experts examined that bag and reported that there was NOT an iota of evidence that the rifle had ever been in that bag.
Why don't you say "FBI experts", you know the same FBI experts that Hoover was in charge of and that is the same Hoover that you are on record as being behind the assassination? Hahaha!
Btw the evidence that Cadigan gave isn't exactly what you claim.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, can you state your full name and position?
Mr. CADIGAN. James C. Cadigan, special agent of the FBI, assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the laboratory here in Washington.
Mr. DULLES. Would the scratches indicate there was a hard object inside the bag, as distinct from a soft object that would make no abrasions or scratches?
Mr. CADIGAN. Well, if you were to characterize it that way, yes. I mean there were a few scratches here. What caused them, I can't say. A hard object; yes. Whether that hard object was part of a gun----
Mr. DULLES. I understand.
The size of Oswald's paper sack that was found in Oswald's sniper's nest is the right size to carry Oswald's broken down rifle, another Oswald coincidence?
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJrnzFh6/38-inch-bag-for-36-inch-rifle.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnsPxpdT/osw-ald-s-bag-in-the-snipers-nest.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXffgMjB/Osw-ald-s-rifle-bag-in-nesta.jpg)
JohnM
That appears to be the bag on top of those boxes. Same creases and all.
So the bag was pictured in the snipers nest, albeit after someone moved it from the floor, probably not realizing at the time it was related to the shooting. They probably just thought it was a scrap piece of paper.
That appears to be the bag on top of those boxes. Same creases and all.
So the bag was pictured in the snipers nest, albeit after someone moved it from the floor, probably not realizing at the time it was related to the shooting. They probably just thought it was a scrap piece of paper.
It definitely has to be the same bag and this photo only captured it by accident but as you say the bag must have initially been considered insignificant and was inadvertantly moved. The CT's have got a lot of mileage out of the bag not being photographed in its original position but as this photo shows the bag which was the right size for Oswald's broken down rifle and also contained Oswald's prints was definitely within the sniper's nest.
JohnM
Question!
What's holding this bag up?
This bag was made that afternoon from the first-floor wrapping table in order to have something to place the wooden strip from the window into
What wooden strip??
Why, the wooden strip taken from the SN window the afternoon of 11/22------------as described by Mr Truly in the document I posted above!
Thumb1:
So they carry the rifle, the most importance piece of evidence in the case, out of the building without any bag but for this piece of wood they must construct a three foot plus long bag to protect it?
Why, the wooden strip taken from the SN window the afternoon of 11/22------------as described by Mr Truly in the document I posted above!
Thumb1:
Thanks. Hadn't read the document.
So they carry the rifle, the most importance piece of evidence in the case, out of the building without any bag but for this piece of wood they must construct a three foot plus long bag to protect it? And instead of putting that evidence in the bag and closing it, they handle the evidence itself in the bag to carry it upright. LOL. Whew. They are obviously not trying to touch the bag. The bag is the evidence.
Tony Fratini and I had a similar debate and Tony established that the following Allen photo was taken about 3:15 which according to the shadows seems about right, and he concluded that this photo showed nail holes which "proves" that the window sill weather protector was gone and since the photos taken of the bag being taken out of the building were photographed at about 2:20 therefore Tony concluded that the bag was being held up by the window strip from the sill?
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0ynQM05/Fratini-nail-hole.jpg)
Tony Fratini's graphic
But a closer look shows that at the time the Allen photo was taken, that the window sill strip was still there and the Dallas Police took an almost identical photo and it also shows the strip to be still there. Therefore whatever was holding up the bag was not the window sill strip.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNCDfq7c/dp-sill-j.jpg)
JohnM
Mr Mytton, I usually can see images you post, but cannot see either of the two you reference here? I have tried in multiple browsers............
Really? Sorry about that but I can see them using Chrome, Microsoft Edge and my android tablet.
JohnM
Mr Mytton, I usually can see images you post, but cannot see either of the two you reference here? I have tried in multiple browsers............
Question! What's holding this bag up?I heard it was a broom handle. [short broom huh?]
Yes------------------the wooden strip didn't come with a strap, you see, Mr Smith Thumb1:
Thank you Richard, and when they had their paper fresh off the roll, they folded and crumpled it and somehow put Oswald's prints on it and instead of holding the bag with the evidence inside they held the evidence with the bag outside? And Ford thinks that is the sensible conclusion, hilarious!
The modern CT's who collectively after thousands or perhaps millions of hours investigating this case are still are no closer to proving a conspiracy and are now at the stage where they are reduced to this illogical garbage.
Tony Fratini and I had a similar debate and Tony established that the following Allen photo was taken about 3:15 which according to the shadows seems about right, and he concluded that this photo showed nail holes which "proves" that the window sill weather protector was gone and since the photos taken of the bag being taken out of the building were photographed at about 2:20 therefore Tony concluded that the bag was being held up by the window strip from the sill?
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0ynQM05/Fratini-nail-hole.jpg)
Tony Fratini's graphic
But a closer look shows that at the time the Allen photo was taken, that the window sill strip was still there and the Dallas Police took an almost identical photo and it also shows the strip to be still there. Therefore whatever was holding up the bag was not the window sill strip.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNCDfq7c/dp-sill-j.jpg)
JohnM
I heard it was a broom handle. [short broom huh?]
http://www.freehomepage.com/jfkresearch/papersac.htm
Thank you Richard, and when they had their paper fresh off the roll, they folded and crumpled it and somehow put Oswald's prints on it and instead of holding the bag with the evidence inside they held the evidence with the bag outside? And Ford thinks that is the sensible conclusion, hilarious!Why is everything with you guys' mutual admiration society hilarious or LOL?
...the FBI Laboratory developed a latent palmprint and latent fingerprint on the bag. (See app. X, p. 565.) Sebastian F. Latona, supervisor of the FBI's Latent Fingerprint Section, identified these prints as the left index fingerprint and right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.181 The portion of the palm which was identified was the heel of the right palm, i.e., the area near the wrist, on the little finger side.182 These prints were examined independently by Ronald G. Wittmus of the FBI,183 and by Arthur Mandella, a fingerprint expert with the New York City Police Department. 184 Both concluded that the prints were the right palm and left index finger of Lee Oswald. No other identifiable prints were found on the bag.185If the bag was handled by the fingers...where are the rest of the prints? If the bag was created by Oswald in the first place...where is the abundance of those prints? Why only a left pinkie? Now that is what is hilarious :-\
Oswald's palmprint on the bottom of the paper bag indicated, of course, that he had handled the bag. Furthermore, it was consistent with the bag having contained a heavy or bulky object when he handled it since a light object is usually held by the fingers.186 The palmprint was found on the closed end of the bag. It was from Oswald's right hand, in which he carried the long package as he walked from Frazier's car to the building.
I, Ronald G. Wittmus, have reviewed the testimony of Sebastian Francis Latona before The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein.Yeah...whatever he said ::)
Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 659, and that exhibit contains two photographs which I now hand you, which are marked 659-A and 659-B?And this topic of buses and cabs has drifted far enough huh?
Mr. MANDELLA. Yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. And did you identify the prints in those photographs?
Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; on photograph No. 1-
It would matter if perhaps Oswald did some pushups on the paper bag and left a complete set of fingerprints on it but I'll quote---If the bag was handled by the fingers...where are the rest of the prints? If the bag was created by Oswald in the first place...where is the abundance of those prints? Why only a left pinkie? Now that is what is hilarious :-\
If the bag was carried like a suitcase..then why did as Frazier described ...like if someone were carrying some magazines or a couple of phonograph records or heavens...a couple of curtain rods tucked under the arm?
Mr Latona testified that he examined the fingerprints the very next day after the assassination. Wasn't that expeditious? His rather verbose testimony took longer... https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/latona.htm
However Mr Wittmus unsworn statement [months later BTW] was fortunately much briefer---Yeah...whatever he said ::)
It appears from his testimony that Mr Mandella [any relation to Nelson?] identified these prints from photographs...And this topic of buses and cabs has drifted far enough huh?
If even one print is found on the bag, it links the bag to Oswald. Many criminals are in jail because they left one print, hair, or drop of blood at a crime scene. No matter how much Oswald handled the bag with his bare hands (and no one knows that) simply touching a bag doesn't necessarily mean that it will leave a recoverable print using 1963 technology. And if you are a conspiracy theorist, why not ask yourself the same question about why your conspirators didn't just say they found Oswald's prints all over the bag and rifle? They are framing him and making all this evidence up? So why not go all out?
If even one print is found on the bag, it links the bag to Oswald. Many criminals are in jail because they left one print, hair, or drop of blood at a crime scene. No matter how much Oswald handled the bag with his bare hands (and no one knows that) simply touching a bag doesn't necessarily mean that it will leave a recoverable print using 1963 technology. And if you are a conspiracy theorist, why not ask yourself the same question about why your conspirators didn't just say they found Oswald's prints all over the bag and rifle? They are framing him and making all this evidence up? So why not go all out?Nice try. Silly as hell but nice try. Go here and lets stay on topic if we can----
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRkfpF3g/Fratini-nail-hole.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0YrCqRJ/window-sill.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Tony Fratini and I had a similar debate and Tony established that the following Allen photo was taken about 3:15 which according to the shadows seems about right, and he concluded that this photo showed nail holes which "proves" that the window sill weather protector was gone and since the photos taken of the bag being taken out of the building were photographed at about 2:20 therefore
Tony concluded that the bag was being held up by the window strip from the sill?
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0ynQM05/Fratini-nail-hole.jpg)
Tony Fratini's graphic
But a closer look shows that at the time the Allen photo was taken, that the window sill strip was still there and the Dallas Police took an almost identical photo and it also shows the strip to be still there. Therefore whatever was holding up the bag was not the window sill strip.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNCDfq7c/dp-sill-j.jpg)
Nice try. Silly as hell but nice try. Go here and lets stay on topic if we can----
Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest......
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2425.msg117692.html#msg117692
If even one print is found on the bag, it links the bag to Oswald.
But it doesn't link the bag to the crime, nor does one print mean anything more than Oswald touched the paper at some point in time
Many criminals are in jail because they left one print, hair, or drop of blood at a crime scene.
Wow, hold on there for a second. Many people are in jail because they left one print, hair, or drop of blood at a crime scene, but that doesn't mean they are all criminals. People get wrongfully convicted all the time.
And if you are a conspiracy theorist, why not ask yourself the same question about why your conspirators didn't just say they found Oswald's prints all over the bag and rifle?
Because an all encompassing entity, you call the "conspirators", which has the liberty to operate in some sort of vacuum, doesn't exist. Those kind of people only exist in movies. In your fantasy conspiracy world everybody is in on it, which is exactly the kind of exaggeration we are so used to coming from you.
So why not go all out?
Because the best lie is the one that stays as close to the truth as possible..... Could that be it?
So you think they constructed this bag but then held the actual evidence (i.e. a wooden strip) with their bare hands? Why would they do that?
Step one is to link the bag to Oswald. One print does that.
The photo that I saw Showed a curved handle like a cane or an umbrella in detective Montgomery's hand. When I saw that photo my first thought was there was a cane supporting the gigantic paper sack, and I didn't know that Montgomery used a cane. That photo was published in a magazine or book .....And I can't remember where I saw that photo....
I didn't say that it was OBVIOUS that Lee ordered "A" Carcano fom Klein's.....I simply have no problem in accepting that Lee Ordered a Carcano from Klein's ...It was a cheap easy to trace old gun that He and De M. intended to use as a throw down gun at the Walker hoax> ( A carcano was also used as a throw down gun in the TSBD)https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62240#relPageId=33
Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?That testimony was absolute perjury.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"[yeah :-\]
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know.
He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.
Mr. JENNER. He became tense?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a peculiar face.
Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face.
The wooden strip was of evidentiary interest because the assassin might have touched it somewhere between its two ends. For a detective to hold it at one of the ends would thus not be a problem
I would very much like to see that photo!
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62240#relPageId=33
This story beginning with this page------
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62240#relPageId=25
This guy...Albert Newman was engaged in writing his own book about the assassination based on nothing but innuendo.
Jim Garrison started off that way.
According to Newman...De Mohrenschildt drove Oswald and rifle to the Walker home ::) That testimony was absolute perjury.
Again...Oswald was dead--who cared anyway?