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General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Duncan MacRae on July 09, 2020, 08:56:03 AM

Title: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Duncan MacRae on July 09, 2020, 08:56:03 AM
( Part 1 ) is viewable at https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2549.0.htm (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2549.0.htm)l

Further discussion to be continued in this thread.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/PmFnjgRaYWC0HIkUKs/200w.webp?cid=ecf05e475b4277b85db5ea8590fe30d3123a7a2bde34fd0d&rid=200w.webp)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2020, 07:10:57 PM
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

"I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone. He just went about his work."            Bonnie Ray Williams


Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink.
Whats that? Not one witness put him on the steps that day? Not one of those stood with him or the many coming back up the steps? Not one?
You do surprise me.

WUP   ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 09, 2020, 07:20:45 PM
If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble.

Exactly.  Which is why it's comical that LNers consider it "evidence of guilt" that he didn't gab about what happened with everybody he encountered after that.

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But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

We are?  Who suggested that Oswald was "chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley"?

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I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him.

Or he was just a shy introvert.  Where do you get "contempt"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2020, 09:08:38 PM

We are?  Who suggested that Oswald was "chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley"?


I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm. Sarcasm can be seen as saying something that  is completely the opposite of what you actually mean as a way to emphasise what you actually mean. To clarify - I'm not actually asking you to believe that Oswald is out front with all his work colleagues interacting in a positive way with them as if he was a really sociable, easy-going guy. I'm actually saying the opposite thing. I honestly thought this would be totally clear as the whole post up to that moment was a litany of testimonial evidence demonstrating how Oswald was perceived as, for want of a better word, unsociable. Statement after statement clearly demonstrating (or so I thought) that Oswald didn't like the company of his work colleagues. As I thought it was blindingly obvious, in the light of the substantial amount of evidence on display, that Oswald would rather blow his own brains out than spend time with his work colleagues, I made up a non-existent, sarcastic scenario to emphasise this point. (when I say "blow his own brains out" this is not sarcasm, this is a 'figure of speech' and is not to be taken literally).
The addition of William Shelley in this scenario was an extrapolation made from Oswald's supposed testimony as recorded in Fritz's notes where he specifically singles out William Shelley - "out with Bill Shelley in front"
The bit at the end where I say "Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink" is also sarcasm. I'll keep it to a minimum if future.

"Where do you get "contempt"?"

If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

"Or he was just a shy introvert"

You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.
Oswald in an antisocial, arrogant loser.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 09, 2020, 09:45:34 PM
I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm.

Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front because he was anti-social, which is ridiculous because you don't have to be social to stand and watch something with other people present.

And yes, "little details" are important to get right.  Especially when someone misrepresents the details in order to state things as facts that are not established as facts.  Like Lovelady and Shelley "lying" about how long it took them to leave the steps.

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If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use.  Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?  I would assume that it's someone who isn't into "chatting away with strangers" about how good the morning is.

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You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.

George Bouhe: 

"They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg."

Mrs. Clyde Livingston:

"He was a quiet and rather shy type of student, did not know any of the other students, and it took him a long time to get acquainted with the other students."

Daniel Patrick Powers:

"I think-he was a quiet-if you want to call it-a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, SO to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him ; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident."

Rose Schambra:

"She stated she found OSWALD to be a quiet and shy person who never seemed to converse with anyone"

Aron Vigushin:

“He was a shy man…. The questions he asked were related to music, astronomy, Russian language. But he didn’t talk too much about himself…. He never talked politics.”

Priscilla Johnson McMillan:

"rather tentative, rather shy, not bombastic at all and not seeking to make a big impression."

Renatus Hartogs:

"It was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of awkwardness and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits."

Ok, your turn.  Name somebody who knew him who used the word "contemptuous" to describe him.

Buell Frazier was the coworker he knew the best and Frazier never described him as contemptuous or that he acted superior to others. 

Mr. BALL - On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other?
Mr. FRAZIER - No. sir: not very much. lie is. probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.
About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2020, 11:23:21 PM
Apart from Frazier, who doesn't use the word 'shy', which of those people in your list are his colleagues, as I specifically stated - "Show me one example ... where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'."
Everything about my original post was about how his work colleagues described him, how antisocial almost everyone found him to be (not that anyone used the word 'antisocial', that is my own interpretation of how he is being described). The point I was clearly making is that Oswald was highly unlikely to be out front with his colleagues as he clearly did not enjoy their company (to put it mildly). The context concerned Oswald and his relationship with his colleagues in general. Once again you appear to have heard what you want to hear, twisted it around to suit your own purposes and 'scored a point' in an argument you have invented.
Is it only me you do this to because it is starting to get bothersome? I don't mind being critiqued, challenged and shown where I'm going wrong but there's something unsettling about your attention.
As for your use of the word 'shy' in relation to Oswald, I find that contemptuous.

By the way, which of the many witnesses on the TSBD steps places Oswald there?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 10, 2020, 12:28:41 AM
Apart from Frazier, who doesn't use the word 'shy', which of those people in your list are his colleagues, as I specifically stated - "Show me one example ... where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'."

 ::)

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?

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Everything about my original post was about how his work colleagues described him, how antisocial almost everyone found him to be (not that anyone used the word 'antisocial', that is my own interpretation of how he is being described).

Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them.  I notice you avoided my question.  Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?

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The point I was clearly making is that Oswald was highly unlikely to be out front with his colleagues as he clearly did not enjoy their company (to put it mildly).

And the point I made is that you do not have to socialize with anybody to stand outside and watch a parade go by.  Who said he did not enjoy their company, anyway?  Or is that more "interpretation"?

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The context concerned Oswald and his relationship with his colleagues in general. Once again you appear to have heard what you want to hear, twisted it around to suit your own purposes and 'scored a point' in an argument you have invented.

And you appear to make meaningless distinctions merely to avoid being accountable for your sweeping generalizations.

Quote
Is it only me you do this to because it is starting to get bothersome? I don't mind being critiqued, challenged and shown where I'm going wrong but there's something unsettling about your attention.

As I said, I'm bothered when people state their personal assumptions and conjecture as fact.  It's nothing personal.

Quote
As for your use of the word 'shy' in relation to Oswald, I find that contemptuous.

Why, when several people who knew him described him like that?  Did you know him?

Quote
By the way, which of the many witnesses on the TSBD steps places Oswald there?

None that I know of.  If that's your argument, then you could have dispensed with all the psychobabble.  Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2020, 01:27:47 AM
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara, for lending powerful credence to the idea that the quiet loner Mr Oswald

-------------would have been uncomfortable standing out on the steps with the other folks awaiting the motorcade
-------------would have instead remained inside, periodically checking on the scene outside by looking through the glass front door
-------------would have left it until the last moment to go through that door, take his position in a dark quiet corner and watch JFK pass
-------------would have gone all but unnoticed by those already standing out there, whose attention was by then focused entirely on the motorcade (and, a few seconds later, the pandemonium).
 
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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 11, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
::)

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?


Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying). I cannot explain it any clearer than this - the point being I was making is absolutely relevant, and specific to, his work colleagues. It is unlikely Oswald would have joined his work colleagues on the steps because of his documented relationship with his work colleagues. How this was not clear to you I don't know, I can only assume you don't read my posts correctly.

"Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them."

I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald? I'll only use a few of quotes to make my point:

"... he didn't associate with us too much ... He didn't like to talk too much to us"
" Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone."
"We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."

These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

" Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?"

No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to. I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour. The dictionary definition of 'contempt'  - "the feeling that a person or a thing is worthless or beneath consideration".
This is the perfect word to describe Oswald. In your defence of him you have this to say -"Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use. Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?"
I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not. To treat someone with contempt is to treat them as if they're not there - exactly how Oswald treats Hines.

"Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no."

It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.
You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 11, 2020, 06:53:47 PM
To Mr. Iacoletti’s point/observation at, quote, “Behind”

It certainly correlates with the time-sequence movements of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman’s return inside the building at the rear entrance at 12:25PM, where the wrongly accused actually described the tandem walking together from his vantage point in the Domino Room (first floor lunchroom).  It would be virtually impossible for anyone, let alone the wrongly accused, if they really were six stories up in the front of the building to guess, let alone actually see, anyone else return into the building six stories below at the rear of the building.

By the time the wrongly accused left the Domino Room and went out the front-entrance to view the presidential-parade, given his reluctance to engage and/or mingle, it would be characteristic of him to take up a rear position "Behind" others, drawing less attention as possible.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2020, 04:19:57 AM

  This "stuff" about Oswald being "shy" is pure Baloney. Oswald was on RADIO extolling his political opinions along with standing on street corners handing out controversial literature to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that crossed his path. Oswald was Not "Shy". Oswald was Verbose whenever he wanted to be and also made his presence Known at a time and place of his choosing.  Stop with this Dr Phil routine.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 12, 2020, 05:24:30 AM
Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.

Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 12, 2020, 07:11:27 AM
Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?


Dear Alan,

There was a lot of stuff happening at the time, so it's understandable that no one on the steps remembered seeing, or volunteered that they'd seen, Officer Marion Baker and TSBD manager Truly run up the steps about 30 seconds after the third and final shot.

Do you think Baker sprinted to the corner to ask the other policeman down there if he'd counted how many pigeons had taken flight?

Do you think Couch-Darnell was altered?

Do you think we in the U.S. live in a FBI and CIA-controlled Deep State?

How many people do you figure were involved in the assassination and "the cover up"?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Mr. Oswald probably left the building by the loading dock door.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 08:16:52 AM
Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying).

I didn’t accuse you of saying that it was impossible — I’m pointing out that your claim that it is “unlikely” is unfounded. As I pointed out, watching a parade while standing behind other people watching a parade is not a social activity. You tried to turn this into an Oswald-Shelley chat session.

But you went way beyond trying to make a case that Oswald wasn’t social enough to be standing outside. You tried to use his reluctance to talk to people to automatically label him as contemptuous and superior.

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I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald?

Why do you describe him as my “friend”? Because I take issue with your armchair psychoanalysis of somebody you never met? Or are you being contemptuous and superior?

Quote
These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

I didn’t misrepresent or twist anything you said. You didn’t merely say he was anti-social.

Quote
No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to.

Ding ding ding. There’s the projection.

Quote
I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour.

And therein lies the problem. You’re not describing the behavior, you’re describing what you decided the behavior means.

Quote
I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not.

I wonder if you realize how contemptuous you are being in this discussion. You missed the part of the definition about being scornful.

Quote
It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible

No. Where did you get that idea?

Quote
but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Note: another coworker who doesn’t describe him as contemptuous, superior, or even unfriendly.

Quote
Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?)

I don’t. I’m responding to your argument that he was too antisocial to be standing outside during the motorcade. Even though standing outside during the motorcade isn’t any more social than sitting in a lunchroom where other people are present.

Quote
and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

Ignoring them how? Just because they didn’t mention seeing him? How many people mentioned Roy Lewis or Jeraldean Reid? Or as Alan aptly noted, Officer Baker.

Quote
You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.

Not at all. I don’t know where he was. But you seem mighty determined to keep him away from there with rhetorical and presumptive arguments .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 08:19:00 AM
  This "stuff" about Oswald being "shy" is pure Baloney. Oswald was on RADIO extolling his political opinions along with standing on street corners handing out controversial literature to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that crossed his path. Oswald was Not "Shy". Oswald was Verbose whenever he wanted to be and also made his presence Known at a time and place of his choosing.  Stop with this Dr Phil routine.

Must be more of that famous Storing “inside information”. Never mind the 7 or so people who actually knew him describing him as shy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 12, 2020, 05:10:18 PM

I didn’t accuse you of saying that it was impossible — I’m pointing out that your claim that it is “unlikely” is unfounded.


In Reply #4 you state the following:

"Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front ..."

In my response to your inability to understand the simple point I make in my original post I lay it out in a way anyone can understand - the numerous testimonies, plus others I didn't use, documenting Oswald's antisocial behaviour towards his work colleagues makes it unlikely he would join them outside to watch the motorcade pass by. You completely ignore my comprehensive explanation (as usual) and twist my word "unlikelihood" into "it couldn't possibly have happened". When I protest that you have yet again twisted and misrepresented my words and that I didn't say "it couldn't possibly have happened" you then twist and misrepresent your own twisted misrepresentation by saying I used the word "impossible".
In two steps I go from saying 'unlikely' to' impossible'. The rest of your response is the usual twisted garbage but, even by your intensely low standards, the deliberate "misremembrance" that both Shelley and Lovelady witnessed Baker at the TSBD steps is stunning. I know for a fact you are aware of their testimonies.
I don't know why you've singled me out for your campaign of misrepresentation but I've had enough and find I'm spending way too much time responding to your unsavoury attentions. I don't know if there's a protocol for complaining about these issues, instead I will post the following message to future attacks;

 :-X POST IGNORED DUE TO PREVIOUS MISREPRESENTATIONS . SEE REPLY #15 "They Went Outside To Watch The P. Parade" THREAD (Part 2)

I have been wondering about why you are victimising me. As a newcomer to all this I've noticed there are various factions (Lone Assassin/Prayer Man/ Two Oswalds etc) with each defending their own 'turf' because each is utterly convinced they have the answer. I don't know what faction you belong to but, as I fumble along through this maze, I'm assuming I've said something you find threatening to you beliefs (and they are beliefs). I'm still near the start so I've not 'found my faction' yet and it may be the case that the evidence leads me to see things the way you do but I'll let my best interpretation of the evidence guide me there, not your bullying tactics.
Looking through my posts I find your only objection based on anything remotely rational is to my stating as fact that Shelley and Lovelady lied in their testimonies. The following image proves for a fact that Lovelady was lying:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0Z2F99/Lovelady-outside-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In his HSCA testimony Lovelady is shown this still (or one very similar) and recognises himself. Towards the end he finally admits he didn't go back inside until much later than he'd previously stated.
Don't bother responding, you will only be ignored.

 (https://i.postimg.cc/tTTThc6d/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2020, 05:15:30 PM
Must be more of that famous Storing “inside information”. Never mind the 7 or so people who actually knew him describing him as shy.

   Guess I somehow missed your disputing Oswald being on Radio and standing on street corners buttonholing passersby with leaflets.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 12, 2020, 05:19:48 PM
   Guess I somehow missed your disputing Oswald being on Radio and standing on street corners buttonholing passersby with leaflets.
And even I know about 'shy' Oswald's TV interview extolling the virtues of his own particular views on Marxism.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2020, 05:23:55 PM
And even I know about 'shy' Oswald's TV interview extolling the virtues of his own particular views on Marxism.

   Yeah. Real shy conduct Overtly Displayed to a Wide Audience.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 12, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
In Reply #4 you state the following:

"Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front ..."

In my response to your inability to understand the simple point I make in my original post I lay it out in a way anyone can understand - the numerous testimonies, plus others I didn't use, documenting Oswald's antisocial behaviour towards his work colleagues makes it unlikely he would join them outside to watch the motorcade pass by. You completely ignore my comprehensive explanation (as usual) and twist my word "unlikelihood" into "it couldn't possibly have happened". When I protest that you have yet again twisted and misrepresented my words and that I didn't say "it couldn't possibly have happened" you then twist and misrepresent your own twisted misrepresentation by saying I used the word "impossible".
In two steps I go from saying 'unlikely' to' impossible'. The rest of your response is the usual twisted garbage but, even by your intensely low standards, the deliberate "misremembrance" that both Shelley and Lovelady witnessed Baker at the TSBD steps is stunning. I know for a fact you are aware of their testimonies.
I don't know why you've singled me out for your campaign of misrepresentation but I've had enough and find I'm spending way too much time responding to your unsavoury attentions. I don't know if there's a protocol for complaining about these issues, instead I will post the following message to future attacks;

 :-X POST IGNORED DUE TO PREVIOUS MISREPRESENTATIONS . SEE REPLY #15 "They Went Outside To Watch The P. Parade" THREAD (Part 2)

I have been wondering about why you are victimising me. As a newcomer to all this I've noticed there are various factions (Lone Assassin/Prayer Man/ Two Oswalds etc) with each defending their own 'turf' because each is utterly convinced they have the answer. I don't know what faction you belong to but, as I fumble along through this maze, I'm assuming I've said something you find threatening to you beliefs (and they are beliefs). I'm still near the start so I've not 'found my faction' yet and it may be the case that the evidence leads me to see things the way you do but I'll let my best interpretation of the evidence guide me there, not your bullying tactics.
Looking through my posts I find your only objection based on anything remotely rational is to my stating as fact that Shelley and Lovelady lied in their testimonies. The following image proves for a fact that Lovelady was lying:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0Z2F99/Lovelady-outside-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In his HSCA testimony Lovelady is shown this still (or one very similar) and recognises himself. Towards the end he finally admits he didn't go back inside until much later than he'd previously stated.
Don't bother responding, you will only be ignored.

 (https://i.postimg.cc/tTTThc6d/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

But you must admit that Iacoletti's input is always useful
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 11:25:49 PM
You completely ignore my comprehensive explanation (as usual)

Nope. I didn’t “ignore” it — I disagree with your conclusion.

Quote
and twist my word "unlikelihood" into "it couldn't possibly have happened".

No, I clearly stated that this is how I read it. This was before your “comprehensive explanation”.

Quote
When I protest that you have yet again twisted and misrepresented my words and that I didn't say "it couldn't possibly have happened" you then twist and misrepresent your own twisted misrepresentation by saying I used the word "impossible".

Nope. I never said you used the word impossible.

Quote
In two steps I go from saying 'unlikely' to' impossible'. The rest of your response is the usual twisted garbage but, even by your intensely low standards, the deliberate "misremembrance" that both Shelley and Lovelady witnessed Baker at the TSBD steps is stunning.

You still haven’t explained how you know this was deliberate. Or even wrong.

If you don’t want to defend your claims, then so be it, but don’t accuse me of “misrepresenting” you just to avoid having to do so.

Quote
I have been wondering about why you are victimising me.

Oh please. You come along here and start decreeing what’s “unlikely” and what are absolute “facts”, and then when you are challenged on what you say, you’re being “victimised”?

Quote
Looking through my posts I find your only objection based on anything remotely rational is to my stating as fact that Shelley and Lovelady lied in their testimonies. The following image proves for a fact that Lovelady was lying:

How does that photo “prove that Lovelady was lying”? How do you even know when the photo was taken?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 11:26:47 PM
   Guess I somehow missed your disputing Oswald being on Radio and standing on street corners buttonholing passersby with leaflets.

Why should I dispute that? Does that somehow make him not shy?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 13, 2020, 04:50:13 AM

  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.  (2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 13, 2020, 05:40:43 AM
  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.

When have I previously disputed a fact?

Quote
(2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.

Thus sayeth Royell and his faulty crystal ball.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 13, 2020, 01:05:43 PM
  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.  (2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.

Oswald overcame any shyness by shooting authority figures
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 13, 2020, 04:17:18 PM
It’s easy to make claims.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 13, 2020, 04:25:27 PM
  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.  (2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.

Yeah, right... a basically shy person could never perform in front of a big audience, right Royell?


You clearly lack any kind of insight in human behavior. People can be generally shy and still perform in public when they feel comfortable to do so, either by having the support of others (as in the video) or, in the right setting, in dealing with a subject they feel passionned about, like Oswald's clear interest in politics. Only a narrowminded person would dispute something so obvious.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 13, 2020, 11:35:23 PM
Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?

 Thumb1:

Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 14, 2020, 12:03:06 AM
Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

!!!!!!!

--  MWT   Walk:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Off the top of my head and without really looking into it - Truly, Shelley, Lovelady and Pauline Sanders.

How many are we looking for?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
Oh yeah - Oswald must have seen him as well as he was stood right by the entrance fishing some cigarettes out of his handbag but that's in Fritz's 'missing notes'  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 14, 2020, 03:42:54 PM
What cigarettes? What handbag?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 05:32:30 PM
Marlborough Lights and Gucci
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 14, 2020, 08:50:58 PM
Marlborough Lights and Gucci


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 09:01:06 PM
 :D very good Martin but I think this would've been more appropriate

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 14, 2020, 09:15:51 PM
It’s easy to make claims.

Especially with witness IDs
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 14, 2020, 09:59:09 PM
:D very good Martin but I think this would've been more appropriate


You think?

Looks like?

Hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 12:08:37 AM
Off the top of my head and without really looking into it - Truly, Shelley, Lovelady and Pauline Sanders.

How many are we looking for?

Well, we can strike Messrs Shelley & Lovelady off your extremely short list of those who noticed Officer Baker & Mr Truly run into the building------------as you yourself believe that they did not look back and see what they say they saw from where they place themselves (in their WC testimonies) some 3+ minutes (!) after the shooting. Or do you believe Officer Baker & Mr Truly did not in fact run up those steps just after Darnell's camera stops filming them?

We can also strike Mr Truly off your list, as it's his dash into the building we're talking about!

Ms Sanders seems to be all you've got, and even that's reported speech------------and it would seem she only noticed Officer Baker (not Mr Truly).

I can help you out by adding Mr Molina, who went on the record about seeing Mr Truly (but not Officer Baker) run into the building v. shortly after the shooting.

So! Not a single person seems to have noticed both Mr Truly and Officer Baker conspicuously dash up those steps and enter the building vestibule.

You will no doubt explain this curious circumstance by saying everyone was in shock about what had just happened and so was not exactly alert to other things going on around them. Fine. Now go apply that thought to the inconspicuous nobody you say couldn't possibly have been standing in that entranceway for a very short time without having been noticed by lots of people!  Thumb1:

Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 12:11:09 AM
Oh yeah - Oswald must have seen him as well as he was stood right by the entrance fishing some cigarettes out of his handbag but that's in Fritz's 'missing notes'  8)

Once again, Mr O'Meara, quit making a fool of yourself and educate yourself as to the actual provenance of these notes:

(https://i.imgur.com/tUbgzY0.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 15, 2020, 01:29:02 AM
Well, we can strike Messrs Shelley & Lovelady off your extremely short list of those who noticed Officer Baker & Mr Truly run into the building------------as you yourself believe that they did not look back and see what they say they saw from where they place themselves (in their WC testimonies) some 3+ minutes (!) after the shooting. Or do you believe Officer Baker & Mr Truly did not in fact run up those steps just after Darnell's camera stops filming them?


Calm down Alan, ranting only makes you say stupid things. Baker didn't disappear into thin air when he reached the steps. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to seeing Baker approaching the steps, that I think they lied about how long it took Baker to get there doesn't matter and the reason "they did not look back" is because they are not the individuals identified walking away in Darnell, the film that shows Baker running at speed towards the steps.

We can also strike Mr Truly off your list, as it's his dash into the building we're talking about!

This is exactly the kind of stupid thing ranting makes you say. Because Truly follows Baker up the steps he can't be included as a witness?? Really Alan? Deep breaths.

Ms Sanders seems to be all you've got, and even that's reported speech------------and it would seem she only noticed Officer Baker (not Mr Truly).

Reported speech? As in - reported to Special Agents Robert E. Hasam and Robert J. Anderson? Find a happy place.

You will no doubt explain this curious circumstance by saying everyone was in shock about what had just happened and so was not exactly alert to other things going on around them. Fine. Now go apply that thought to the inconspicuous nobody you say couldn't possibly have been standing in that entranceway for a very short time without having been noticed by lots of people!

I will no doubt explain this curious circumstance by saying the majority of people at the steps were never called to testify and of those who did the majority reported seeing Baker approaching the steps (remember, Baker didn't disappear once he reached the steps). And just to clarify - the antisocial nature of the nobody in question made him very conspicuous.

Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


I think you'll find this is a list of all those who place your conspicuous creep on the steps. And breathe out  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 15, 2020, 02:05:55 AM
  Let's Not forget that MOTORCYCLE Officer Baker allegedly came Roaring around the corner of Houston/Elm St. We have All seen the still frame pics of people standing at ground level and being stretched across the front of the TSBD. This Shoulda been a Ringling Bros worthy show unfolding right in front of their eyes. Officer Baker Roaring around the corner onto Elm St, then HASTILY parking his bike at the curb and then SPRINTING across the Elm St Extension toward the TSBD is right outta an episode of "Chips". Of ALL those Eyewitnesses standing in front of the TSBD, NONE of them has reported seeing Baker's alleged Derring-do Unfolding DIRECTLY in Front of them. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 02:13:18 AM
Calm down Alan, ranting only makes you say stupid things. Baker didn't disappear into thin air when he reached the steps. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to seeing Baker approaching the steps, that I think they lied about how long it took Baker to get there doesn't matter and the reason "they did not look back" is because they are not the individuals identified walking away in Darnell, the film that shows Baker running at speed towards the steps.

 :D

Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!

You believe this is Mr Lovelady and Ms Calvery in Darnell, right?---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pnb5FTn.jpg)

Now! Tell us where exactly you think Officer Baker and Mr Truly are at this same moment. That way, we can see how credible the WC testimony of your star co-witness Mr Lovelady re. his sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly is!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 02:17:00 AM
Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


I think you'll find this is a list of all those who place your conspicuous creep on the steps. And breathe out  8)

 :D :D

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 15, 2020, 02:25:59 AM
:D :D

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?  :D

Dear Alan,

If, as surmised by Buell Wesley Frazier, Oswald exited the building through the loading dock door, and then walked up the sidewalk towards the intersection of Elm and Houston (but crossed over the street before he reached said intersection), how many people who knew him should have noticed him?

Couple hundred?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 15, 2020, 07:28:31 PM
:D

Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!

You believe this is Mr Lovelady and Ms Calvery in Darnell, right?---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pnb5FTn.jpg)

Now! Tell us where exactly you think Officer Baker and Mr Truly are at this same moment. That way, we can see how credible the WC testimony of your star co-witness Mr Lovelady re. his sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly is!  Thumb1:

Dear Alan,

You are such a dream to argue with. It's like I don't even need to take part while you argue my case for me. In an earlier, unnecessarily rude post you told me to "quit making a fool" of myself. Well, why don't I make a fool of you instead.
Firstly, let's just clear something up. The identification of Shelley and Lovelady as the two figures walking down the dead-end street directly in front of the TSBD is based on almost nothing. It's an image of two white males walking towards the railroad yard and that's it. The WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady categorically refute this identification. Both men are crystal clear that they did not leave the area of the steps until after their encounter with Gloria Calvery and that Calvery did not arrive until at least three minutes after the final shooting. Both men are crystal clear in their testimonies that they didn't see Baker until after they had seen Gloria Calvery which can only mean one thing - both men are testifying that Baker didn't arrive on the scene until at least three minutes after the last shot!!! I am not making this up, it's in their testimonies. From Darnell we know this to be a falsehood as the arrival of Baker can be timed, with a fair degree of accuracy, to no more than 30 seconds  The only thing the identification of the two men walking down the street as Shelley and Lovelady has got going for it is that the testimony that refutes it is given by liars. Hardly a sound basis for an ID.
So where were Shelley and Lovelady when they saw Baker approaching the steps? The pic you posted has the answer to that question. Just off to the left of the frame Baker is racing past Roy Truly towards a group of people who seem to be making their way up the stairs except for one man facing down the stairs. In his part of the testimony concerning the recreation of their dash into the building Truly notes " I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building". This must surely be a reference to the people stood on the left-hand side of the front entrance steps as we look at it, the side Baker is approaching from. These people must have seen Baker rushing up the stairs as he barged past them, so who are they? This pic gives us a very large clue:

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqvCLLf/Lovelady-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NbMzp45/Gloria-Calvery-close-up-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Note the striking resemblance to Lovelady in the top pic and the man facing down the stairs on the bottom one (and is that Lovelady's checkered shirt I can just about make out in the pic you posted Alan? I believe it is you know). We know from Altgens 6 and this still from Hughes this is, more or less, Lovelady's position around the time of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLMq3sT9/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-Close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

So we can identify with some degree of confidence that the man on the steps is Lovelady. What about the woman directly in front of him wearing the black headscarf and black top and with whom he appears to be in conversation with, an impression strongly reinforced by the Larsen/Graves Gif in which we see the lady in white, who is linking arms with this woman, trying to ascend the steps but is held back by her companion, apparently engaged in conversation with Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/rmRP0k1f/gloria-calvery-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

It seems to me that the lady in the black headscarf is leaning against the wall for support as her friend tries to pull her up the steps but she doesn't move as she is engaged conversation with Lovelady. This is surely the moment when Gloria Calvery comes running up to the steps and tells Lovelady about the assassination:

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was...

Lending credence to this account is a very similar one given by Joe Molina:

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Some people think the man on the steps is Joe Molina but he clearly states he was stood inside the lobby of the front entrance when Gloria and 'this other girl', presumably the lady in white, came up to him. If the lady in the black headscarf talking to Lovelady on the steps is indeed Gloria Calvery, then a few things must follow:

She must have been very close to the actual assassination to see the amount of detail she describes.
She was most probably stood there in the company of her friend, the lady in white.
She must have been close enough to get back to the TSBD before Baker arrived there.
She most probably appears in the Zapruder footage.

In her "Hoover Questionnaire" Calvery states that she was with three friends - Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook and Karen Hicks - who were stood on Elm about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvnBXDjg/gloria-calvery-coworkers-jpg-c8ab7305fa9795afc64f79326f6d7a71.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Gloria was quite tall and big with it (check out her legs compared to her co-workers - sorry Gloria). Karen Westbrook was also quite tall while Reed and Hicks were shorter. So, in the Zfilm we are looking for four friends, two slightly taller than the others (keep an eye out for the legs), one in a black headscarf and black top, one all in white and all close enough to the final head-shot to see it in detail:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2S86Swby/Calvery-on-Elm-3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It's not a difficult identification. The lady in white being one of the shorter two is either Reed or Hicks. The only question is could they have made it back to the TSBD steps before Baker got there? In the schematic below the scale bar at the bottom represents 40ft. Calvery an her friends are approximately positioned just to the east of the single tree on the grassy expanse in front of the pergola. Using the scale it's possible to get a rough estimate of no more than 150 ft from this position to the TSBD steps. A person walking at a sedate pace of 3mph can cover just over 130 ft in 30 seconds. A person running, as both Shelley and Lovelady testify Calvery was, can cover the distance in half the time. Enough time to get there and be leaning against the wall as she tells Lovelady about the assassination.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhjV2GVS/Plan-of-Dealey-Plaza-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Most of this is a regurgitation of work done by Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves, check it out here - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25790-the-identification-of-gloria-calvery-in-zapruder-and-darnell/

What about Shelley? Multiple witnesses have him at the steps around this time. So, we're looking for a skinny chap in a baggy black suit and my favourite candidate is the man stood at the bottom of the steps looking in the direction of Baker as he approaches. The upshot of all this is that both Shelley and Lovelady did witness the approaching Baker but lied about where they were and how long it took for Baker to get there (something that needs explaining). What about Calvery and Reed/Hicks? Along with nearly all the females on the steps (Bonnie Richey, Betty Dragoo, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson, Jeraldean Reid, Sarah Stanton) they were never asked, as far as I am aware, to give an official statement other than the 'Hoover Questionnaire' which only wanted very specific details. Exceptions were Pauline Sanders, who did identify Baker on the steps and Carolyn Arnold, who provided very little detail (other than a potential 'fleeting glimpse' Oswald standing in the lobby of the front entrance which she specifically retracted in a subsequent statement but one can't help but get the faint whiff of FBI pressure about this - maybe, maybe not).
I believe that makes it 4 - 2 to me on the Baker witnesses, you mentioned Molina but forgot Frazier, You can have him for free  ;D). I'd love to have Ochus Campell's "... and a motorcycle policeman rushed up" but it's too sketchy.

"You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?"


When you wrote this in an earlier post I thought you were just having a 'senior moment' so I let it go as it was before the insults started - "While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?"

I've not been doing this for long but I did make an early breakthrough - there is more than one exit to the TSBD!!! Please keep it quiet as I'm thinking about writing a book. I think Thomas, being the excellent researcher he is, might be aware of the exit onto the Houston Street dock but he's not mentioned the secret door on the west side of the building. I shouldn't be telling you really but I'm just so excited. There's going to be a whole chapter on an external fire escape that seems to have completely gone under the radar.
Have a little read over the point your making about Oswald not being seen leaving through the front entrance of the TSBD and then, by my logic, you should take some meds and treat yourself to a nice lie down.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 15, 2020, 10:55:41 PM
You think?

Looks like?

Hmmmmmm

If Dan is convinced that a blurry film frame shows somebody digging into a purse for cigarettes, then by golly that's just what it is.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 16, 2020, 02:44:45 AM
Please excuse the interruption gentlemen...just in briefly to record some notes for follow up reference/post later this weekend when I have more time.

*Ms/Mrs. Hendrix's Commission Exhibit 1381 Statement (page 18, right-hand column)

*Compare Gloria Calvery's wedding picture height with woman climbing steps w/woman in white. Use the photo image at the Tire Dealership Ad as well.

*Compare Ms/Mrs. Hendrick's timeline dash to Marrion Baker's ----->


Ms/Mrs. Hendrix was 51 years old. Roy Truly was 56 years old on Friday, November 22, 1963 (IF he can handle rushing up five flights of stairs, she could handle a short distance sprint back to the building per her CE 1381 Statement.









Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2020, 04:14:01 AM
Please excuse the interruption gentlemen...just in briefly to record some notes for follow up reference/post later this weekend when I have more time.

*Ms/Mrs. Hendrix's Commission Exhibit 1381 Statement (page 18, right-hand column)

*Compare Gloria Calvery's wedding picture height with woman climbing steps w/woman in white. Use the photo image at the Tire Dealership Ad as well.

*Compare Ms/Mrs. Hendrick's timeline dash to Marrion Baker's ----->


Ms/Mrs. Hendrix was 51 years old. Roy Truly was 56 years old on Friday, November 22, 1963 (IF he can handle rushing up five flights of stairs, she could handle a short distance sprint back to the building per her CE 1381 Statement.

Dear Alan,

You do realize don't you that at the beginning of the pertinent part of the clip, the woman wearing the black blouse (tall Gloria Calvery) was standing one step below the woman in white (average height Carol Reed), and at the end of the clip she was standing two steps below her?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2020, 06:23:16 AM
Dear Alan, (~snip snip~)

Thank you for this error-riddled essay, Mr O'Meara, which amounts to little more than an extended exercise in missing the point!  Thumb1:

We agree that Mr Lovelady can be seen in Darnell, talking to (probably) Ms Calvery--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqvCLLf/Lovelady-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NbMzp45/Gloria-Calvery-close-up-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now for the problems!

1. Sorry, but this large man is not Mr Shelley--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Qap7yjQ.gif)

-------------try as you might to convince yourself that it is by restricting yourself to a frame showing him profile... (nice try though!)

2. Mr Shelley's own same-day affidavit says he ran into Ms Calvery (whom he knew well BTW!) at the "corner" of the "park". This would put him away from the steps by the time of Darnell, and would (if he's telling the truth in that affidavit) explain why he's nowhere to be found there. (And no, "Multiple witnesses" do NOT "have him at the steps around this time.") What's certain is that he's lying in his WC testimony.

Conclusion? Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley are lying in their WC testimonies with respect to their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly's dash into the building. Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building.

Does that mean they didn't dash into the building? No! It just means your argument that the much more inconspicuous Mr Oswald's going unnoticed by most folk on the steps for the v. short time he was out there means he can't have been out there is pitifully weak------------as have all the arguments we've heard to date from Team Keep LHO Away From The Front Entrance!

But now to the question--------------Why would Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lie about their immediate post-assassination movements?

Mr Lovelady's reason is easy to establish, Mr Shelley's not so easy.

Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony).

Mr Oswald told the truth about his movements in these minutes. What has come to light about what he said in custody offers a compelling counter-narrative to the official story. He really did visit the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination; he really did return to the first floor, where he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building by the back; he really did go outside to watch the P. parade; and he really did have an encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance. The 'investigating' authorities knew all this within hours of the assassination, and they got to work quickly to bury their suspect's alibi.

The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 16, 2020, 09:53:51 PM
Thank you for this error-riddled essay, Mr O'Meara, which amounts to little more than an extended exercise in missing the point!  Thumb1:

We agree that Mr Lovelady can be seen in Darnell, talking to (probably) Ms Calvery--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqvCLLf/Lovelady-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NbMzp45/Gloria-Calvery-close-up-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now for the problems!

1. Sorry, but this large man is not Mr Shelley--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Qap7yjQ.gif)

-------------try as you might to convince yourself that it is by restricting yourself to a frame showing him profile... (nice try though!)

2. Mr Shelley's own same-day affidavit says he ran into Ms Calvery (whom he knew well BTW!) at the "corner" of the "park". This would put him away from the steps by the time of Darnell, and would (if he's telling the truth in that affidavit) explain why he's nowhere to be found there. (And no, "Multiple witnesses" do NOT "have him at the steps around this time.") What's certain is that he's lying in his WC testimony.

Conclusion? Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley are lying in their WC testimonies with respect to their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly's dash into the building. Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building.

Does that mean they didn't dash into the building? No! It just means your argument that the much more inconspicuous Mr Oswald's going unnoticed by most folk on the steps for the v. short time he was out there means he can't have been out there is pitifully weak------------as have all the arguments we've heard to date from Team Keep LHO Away From The Front Entrance!

But now to the question--------------Why would Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lie about their immediate post-assassination movements?

Mr Lovelady's reason is easy to establish, Mr Shelley's not so easy.

Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony).

Mr Oswald told the truth about his movements in these minutes. What has come to light about what he said in custody offers a compelling counter-narrative to the official story. He really did visit the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination; he really did return to the first floor, where he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building by the back; he really did go outside to watch the P. parade; and he really did have an encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance. The 'investigating' authorities knew all this within hours of the assassination, and they got to work quickly to bury their suspect's alibi.

The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!

 Thumb1:

Oh Alan, you really are the gift that keeps on giving.

Your dissection of my "error riddled essay" deals with one point - that Shelley can't be in Darnell because he's bumping into Gloria Calvery at the "corner" of the "park, even though you agree Calvery is on the steps talking to Lovelady!!!
Absolutely priceless  :D What a devastating critique.
I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll make the concession that Shelley goes out to meet Calvery as per his affidavit then comes back to the steps with her (even though there's no specific mention of this). This places him in Darnell but you don't agree with my candidate for Shelley because he's too "large", by which I assume you mean he's too fat. But the side view of him shows he's quite skinny. Fat from the back and skinny from the side!! Brilliant  ;D
The notion that a skinny chap with broad shoulders and a baggy suit could achieve this fat/skinny effect is way beyond you.

"Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building."

Now you've introduced the word credible I agree Shelley and Lovelady are most certainly not that but Sanders and Truly are but you don't include Truly as a witness because he's involved in the dash with Baker!!!  :D :D :D : What impeccable logic!


"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


 ??? I won't even ask you to provide one scrap of evidence to support this psychedelically wild pile of tripe. Which reminds me, where's the self-anointed fact-checker in residence? How come you get away with this nonsense without feeling his wrath. It's almost like you're on the same team!

"The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!"

I have consistently maintained Oswald's behaviour made him conspicuous. Show me one post I've made that refers to the antisocial wife-beating creep as "invisible". (You can't include me pointing out that not one witness places him on the steps at the time of the assassination and in your case, unlike mine, 'not one witness' means not one witness, credible or otherwise).

Please keep up the good work  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 16, 2020, 11:30:42 PM
??? I won't even ask you to provide one scrap of evidence to support this psychedelically wild pile of tripe. Which reminds me, where's the self-anointed fact-checker in residence?

Says the whiner who can't stand having his mistakes corrected.

Maybe because the "psychedelically wild pile of tripe" is your identifications of Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvery.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 17, 2020, 09:09:41 AM
Says the whiner who can't stand having his mistakes corrected.

Maybe because the "psychedelically wild pile of tripe" is your identifications of Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvery.

The Identification of Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery is sound. Not once have you tried to take it on, just your usual nit-picking and empty observations. Why don't you put up your identification of Calvery and we'll argue it out (something I know for a fact won't be happening.) You talk about "mistakes corrected" and let this garbage sail on through -

"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


Oh, the hypocrisy, and you have the audacity to refer to the opinions of others as 'biased'. I see what you are now John, a defender of your own faith, constantly sniping at those who have a different opinion and never actually adding anything to the conversation (unless, of course, you are renowned for some big advance in the JFK case that I'm unaware of).
Having all the details at your fingertips is useless if you only use them as ammunition.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM48crcN/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 17, 2020, 02:13:12 PM
Oh Alan, (~snip snip~)

The denial is strong with this one, folks!  :D

Mr O'Meara, we appreciate that you're pretty new to this case so we so make allowances for newbie errors and rookie overexcitement. But you really need to stop making a fool of yourself.

When you repeatedly misidentify the author of these notes as Captain Fritz-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/FxoQrOx.jpg)

--------------you make a fool of yourself.

When you loudly proclaim that this hulk is Mr Bill Shelley------------

(https://i.imgur.com/B4gzD9Q.jpg)

------------you make a fool of yourself.

When you put forward Mr Roy Truly as a witness to the actions of Mr Roy Truly, you make a fool of yourself.

When you misrepresent the timeframe of Mr Molina's interaction with Ms Calvery in the vestibule, you make a fool of yourself.

Etc. etc. etc.

This is what's known amongst specialists as a pattern of Doylesque behavior. Do you really want to be the forum's new Mr Doyle? If not-------------raise your game, man!

So! Now that we have established that Mr Lovelady lied to the WC that he was away from the steps when Officer Baker & Mr Truly went up them, and that he told Mr Jarman all about what he really saw from his vantage point on those steps, let's explore the question of Mr Oswald's in/visibility together, shall we?

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz a man with a crewcut came in the front door, waved his credentials and asked him for the nearest telephone. Do you believe Mr Oswald made this incident up?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 17, 2020, 03:18:44 PM

When you misrepresent the timeframe of Mr Molina's interaction with Ms Calvery in the vestibule, you oh-so-smugly make a fool of yourself.


Dear Mister Ford,

When you suggest that Joe Molina and Gloria Calvery "interacted" in the smallish enclosed space just outside the second-floor lunchroom, you really make a fool of yourself.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 17, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
The Identification of Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery is sound. Not once have you tried to take it on, just your usual nit-picking and empty observations. Why don't you put up your identification of Calvery and we'll argue it out (something I know for a fact won't be happening.) You talk about "mistakes corrected" and let this garbage sail on through -

"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


Oh, the hypocrisy, and you have the audacity to refer to the opinions of others as 'biased'. I see what you are now John, a defender of your own faith, constantly sniping at those who have a different opinion and never actually adding anything to the conversation (unless, of course, you are renowned for some big advance in the JFK case that I'm unaware of).
Having all the details at your fingertips is useless if you only use them as ammunition.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM48crcN/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

   I'm surprised in order to bolster your, "Oswald at the Front Door of the TSBD Theory", you have Not referenced the story of the reporter that was looking for a telephone immediately after the Kill Shot. The reporter claimed  to have asked a stranger out in front of the TSBD, (afterward the reporter said he looked just like Oswald), as to where the nearest phone was. The stranger/Oswald? gestured him toward the TSBD.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 17, 2020, 04:45:42 PM
The Identification of Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery is sound. Not once have you tried to take it on, just your usual nit-picking and empty observations.

Bull.  I told you in great detail what was wrong with this "sound" argument.  It is based entirely upon Graves imagining that he sees "stripes" on black-blob on the steps in the Darnell frame and a whole bunch of handwaving.

Quote
"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


Oh, the hypocrisy, and you have the audacity to refer to the opinions of others as 'biased'. I see what you are now John, a defender of your own faith

Uh....Dan.....I didn't write those things, Alan did.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 17, 2020, 04:49:34 PM
When you loudly proclaim that this hulk is Mr Bill Shelley------------

------------you make a fool of yourself.

Dan is certainly entitled to think this blobs are whoever he wants them to be.  But he shouldn't pretend that his arrogance constitutes a "sound identification".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 17, 2020, 05:25:10 PM

  If people are simply going to accept that "Blob" on the (R) Rear of JFK's head after Z313 is actually his Intact Skull, this hooey then makes every other "Blob" Fair Game.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 17, 2020, 05:45:03 PM
Bull. I told you in great detail what was wrong with this "sound" argument.  It is based entirely upon Graves imagining that he sees "stripes" on black-blob on the steps in the Darnell frame and a whole bunch of handwaving.

Iacoletti,

At least you're finally conceding that the black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing gal at issue in Darnell is a candidate for big, tall, (glasses-wearing) Calvery, and you're implying that if only some broad, dark (but admittedly very fuzzy) horizontal "bands" could be discerned in the sliver of her subtlety-patterned, "plaid" skirt ...

... (speaking of which, scroll down to the Zapruder frame in Linda's fine Find-A-Grave post and enlarge it to see what I'm talking about) ... https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149407954/gloria-jean-calvery

... that's visible in Darnell, you'd be convinced it's her.

That's fantastic! You've made some real progress, John (traumatic for you though it must have been)!

Perhaps someone more technologically gifted than I am can find a clear version of those few Darnell frames, and enlarge them ...

 ... but not too much, as you always seem to intentionally do, John ...

... (lol -- remember your "She's Wearing Glasses/Nope, I Was Wrong -- She's Not Wearing Glasses" (Calvery) in the Betzner-3 photo we spent so much time arguing about, about a year ago? Remember -- you enlarged a crop of that untill her glasses "disappeared," didn't you) ...

... and post one or two of them here.

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Clearer Zapruder frames (i.e.., showing much better the dark horizontal bands in Calvery's dress) can be found, but unfortunately they all seem to be posted at the Duncan-proscribed Eeek-A-Freak Disinformation Forum website.

PPPS 

Wait! 

Doesn't our very own Robin Unger have some in the Forum's "JFK PHOTOGRAPHS GALLERY" section???

Edit:

Yep!  Here's one!  https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=0
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 04:11:01 PM
Well! I asked a question a while back and no one did offer an answer. So-----------I'll ask it again........

In Mr Dom Bonafede's 24 May 1964 article on Mr Billy Lovelady in the New York Herald Tribune, we get the following re. the Altgens photograph:

"Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"

Here is Commission Exhibit 203---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/alKkCnU.jpg)

Which female employee from the second floor, shielding her eyes in the photograph, is Mr Lovelady pointing to as he confidently makes the statement quoted above?

Can't be Ms Maddie Reese (GREEN arrow) (----------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

Can't be Ms Ruth Dean (PINK arrow) (---------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

(https://i.imgur.com/nGMYml2.jpg)

So---------------who does Mr Lovelady mean----------------and: where in the Altgens photograph is she??

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 04:19:58 PM
Perhaps not wholly unrelated question!

Mr Ronald Fischer states this in his 11/22/63 affidavit------------

"I do remember one peculiar thing happened just at the time I saw the man up there (-------> i.e. just before the motorcade turned the corner onto Houston Street, A.F.). There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and looked to me like she might be an employee of that building. She was walking in while everyone else had been coming out."

Assuming Mr Fischer didn't hallucinate this "girl"--------------and why should we think he did?----------------who might she have been?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 04:22:47 PM
Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz a man with a crewcut came in the front door, waved his credentials and asked him for the nearest telephone. Do you believe Mr Oswald made this incident up?

Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 18, 2020, 05:12:17 PM
Mr. Ford at his optimal best, what an uncanny knack he has for honing in on pertinent details amid his keenly discerning research methodology. 

That said, good morning gentlemen. In briefly to expound upon the notes I left earlier this week:

*For years it was common knowledge within the research community that Gloria Jean Calvery was "Running Woman".  Given the actual physique of Running-Woman, many researchers over time--with good reason--begin to question the notion that Running-Woman was the noticeably more pudgy Calvery (G-d bless her anyway as her physique doesn't define her inner-beauty as a valued member of the human race).

A couple of years ago, while reading through the statements within Commission-Exhibit 1381, I came across a more likely candidate for Running-Woman: Miss Georgia Ruth Hendrix.  Unlike anyone else interviewed, she actually shares how she fled back into the building (her first-hand account is on page 18 on the right column) ---->

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

In respect to my other notes,  specifically a reminder to compare Gloria Calvery's (RIP) wedding photograph and now the images we have courtesy of the SFM, I am not convinced she is the MUCH taller amazon woman in plaid captured in the respective photos of Mr. Zapruder & Mr. Betzner . In the SFM photo within this thread she is the third tallest female, yet somehow she suddenly dwarfs both her two taller coworkers and even the men standing there alongside her on lower Elm Street?

In her wedding photo her husband is much taller than she is (even standing there in her high-heels). So, when did this sudden growth spurt occur?

This inquiry & these questions are merely an observation. It is not to serve as an attack upon the good-faith research of others contrary to my views. It is merely done in the spirit of avoiding the possibility of another long-term instance where the research community needs to update, reset and start all over again as was the experience with the initial identification of "Running-Woman".

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 05:40:52 PM
Mr. Ford at his optimal best, what an uncanny knack he has for honing in on pertinent details amid his keenly discerning research methodology. 

That said, good morning gentlemen. In briefly to expound upon the notes I left earlier this week:

*For years it was common knowledge within the research community that Gloria Jean Calvery was "Running Woman".  Given the actual physique of Running-Woman, many researchers over time--with good reason--begin to question the notion that Running-Woman was the noticeably more pudgy Calvery (G-d bless her anyway as her physique doesn't define her inner-beauty as a valued member of the human race).

A couple of years ago, while reading through the statements within Commission-Exhibit 1381, I came across a more likely candidate for Running-Woman: Miss Georgia Ruth Hendrix.  Unlike anyone else interviewed, she actually shares how she fled back into the building (her first-hand account is on page 18 on the right column) ---->

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

In respect to my other notes,  specifically a reminder to compare Gloria Calvery's (RIP) wedding photograph and now the images we have courtesy of the SFM, I am not convinced she is the MUCH taller amazon woman in plaid captured in the respective photos of Mr. Zapruder & Mr. Betzner . In the SFM photo within this thread she is the third tallest female, yet somehow she suddenly dwarfs both her two taller coworkers and even the men standing there alongside her on lower Elm Street?

In her wedding photo her husband is much taller than she is (even standing there in her high-heels). So, when did this sudden growth spurt occur?

This inquiry & these questions are merely an observation. It is not to serve as an attack upon the good-faith research of others contrary to my views. It is merely done in the spirit of avoiding the possibility of another long-term instance where the research community needs to update, reset and start all over again as was the experience with the initial identification of "Running-Woman".

Thanking you kindly, sir! Several fascinating lines of inquiry being pursued here, all converging on those all-important front steps that hold the key to Mr Oswald's alibi  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 05:42:58 PM
Perhaps not wholly unrelated question!

Mr Ronald Fischer states this in his 11/22/63 affidavit------------

"I do remember one peculiar thing happened just at the time I saw the man up there (-------> i.e. just before the motorcade turned the corner onto Houston Street, A.F.). There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and looked to me like she might be an employee of that building. She was walking in while everyone else had been coming out."

Assuming Mr Fischer didn't hallucinate this "girl"--------------and why should we think he did?----------------who might she have been?

 Thumb1:

Working backwards----------------------

I believe this 'girl' was none other than Ms Carolyn Arnold. She left the group of female employees out by the street and returned to the front entrance just before the motorcade passed.

Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Bill Shelley noticed her presence.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 18, 2020, 06:21:53 PM
Thanking you kindly, sir! Several fascinating lines of inquiry being pursued here, all converging on those all-important front steps that hold the key to Mr Oswald's alibi  Thumb1:

   The "Key" to the Oswald Alibi is Buell Frazier.  Frazier was standing on that 3+ feet deep TSBD Landing = His having a Crows Nest Vantage Point: (1) Prior to,  (2) During, and (3) Well After the Kill Shot. Either Frazier did see Oswald standing on the TSBD Landing or Nobody did. Very Simple. And with Frazier still alive and kicking, this is an Important Question that can be answered by a Main Player/Eyewitness. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 06:49:50 PM
Well! I asked a question a while back and no one did offer an answer. So-----------I'll ask it again........

In Mr Dom Bonafede's 24 May 1964 article on Mr Billy Lovelady in the New York Herald Tribune, we get the following re. the Altgens photograph:

"Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"

Here is Commission Exhibit 203---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/alKkCnU.jpg)

Which female employee from the second floor, shielding her eyes in the photograph, is Mr Lovelady pointing to as he confidently makes the statement quoted above?

Can't be Ms Maddie Reese (GREEN arrow) (----------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

Can't be Ms Ruth Dean (PINK arrow) (---------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

(https://i.imgur.com/nGMYml2.jpg)

So---------------who does Mr Lovelady mean----------------and: where in the Altgens photograph is she??

 Thumb1:

My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Ve8lufE.jpg)

Ms Arnold's presence on those steps was erased from history. Because she told the 'investigating' authorities she noticed Mr Lee Harvey Oswald when she went back to that front entrance just before the Presidential parade arrived. (Unlike those already on the steps, she was facing in that direction before she reached them.) They took her statement and distorted it beyond recognition. They made her think her story had gone into the official record. That story also included a sighting of Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade-------------a story which chimed perfectly with what Mr Oswald had claimed in custody, despite the fact that Ms Arnold was not privy to any of the interrogations.

Ms Arnold was, in short, the witness from hell. And so she wasn't called before the Warren Commission.

Years later, Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers contacted Ms Arnold. When she was told what was in her FBI interview report, she reacted very defensively to any suggestion she spotted Mr Oswald behind the front glass door. But she protested a little too much... Why, researchers had to wonder, would the FBI have concocted an Oswald sighting at the front door? Must have come from somewhere! The rational answer: They took what she told them and changed the timeframe, made her location vague enough-----and put words of doubt as to the identification into her mouth...

(https://i.imgur.com/heUcVA0.jpg)

This provided insulation against the eventuality of Ms Arnold's going public with her sighting. 'Oh, that's not quite what the young lady told us. See for yourself--here's the official interview report.'

By 1978, Ms Arnold no longer wished to tell her story-------------or at least: she now was only prepared to talk about the lunchroom part. Understandable!

However, if I've got this right, then I hope that, while there's still time, she decides to reveal the truth. Because along with Mr BW Frazier (and possibly Mr Roy Edward Lewis), she may be the only living witness left who can finally confirm Mr Oswald's alibi.

In the meantime, thank you, Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 18, 2020, 08:18:29 PM

  You previously Believed that the Shadow was applied to the Wiegman Film in order to Hide/Cover Oswald. Do you Now believe the Purpose of the Shadow is to hide Ms Arnold?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 10:06:30 PM
  You previously Believed that the Shadow was applied to the Wiegman Film in order to Hide/Cover Oswald. Do you Now believe the Purpose of the Shadow is to hide Ms Arnold?

I am certain the shadow is fake, and that its fabrication is related to Mr Oswald.

I strongly believe Ms Arnold is the reason that shadow was added---------and that she is the person to whom that arm belongs.

In the earliest iterations of Altgens that went out into the public domain, the presence of a person shielding their eyes just below Mr Lovelady was quite evident--------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/VGCywDQ.jpg)

(= what Mr Cronkite showed the nation that evening)

(https://i.imgur.com/15lB96G.jpg)

This posed quite the headache for the 'investigators'. I believe it explains the shenanigans behind this photo-shoot-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/VcCtDWn.jpg)

This was no 'misunderstanding' over which item of attire Mr Lovelady was to bring to the session! Mr Lovelady needed to be made pretend that he wore a short-sleeved shirt 11/22/63 to explain away the raised arm of the person just below him in Altgens as: his own lower left arm...

(https://i.imgur.com/VGCywDQ.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 18, 2020, 10:14:03 PM

  Most of us come here to Learn. Just admit you have Changed your position as to the Primary Reason for the shadow. No big deal.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 11:02:30 PM
  Most of us come here to Learn. Just admit you have Changed your position as to the Primary Reason for the shadow. No big deal.

Perfectly happy to admit that, Mr Storing. All I care about here is getting to the truth, one way or the other! Thumb1:

For some time now I have believed that BLUE arrow is Mr Oswald (i.e. Prayer Man), YELLOW arrow Mr Shelley (just behind Mr Lovelady)----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pjUnXgy.jpg)

I tried (harder perhaps than anyone!) to find a credible counter-candidate for Prayer Man, but I got precisely nowhere. It's looking more and more to me like Prayer Man really is Mr Oswald.

The way I see it, Mr Oswald-------------after his visit to the second floor lunchroom--------------stays indoors on the first floor, keeping an eye out (through the glass front door) for the motorcade. Not being one for mingling or small talk, he waits until the latest possible moment to pop outside. He takes up his position over by the west wall of the entrance. He's holding his coke & sandwich/apple.

Just before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, i.e. just before Mr Oswald steps outside, Ms Arnold spots him standing behind the glass door. She does not notice him after that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 11:19:32 PM
Now!

Who is this (focus on YELLOW BOX------------please DISREGARD red arrow!) in the Towner film, standing on a lower step very close to Mr Carl Edward Jones, and enthusiastically waving something at the limousine?

(https://i.imgur.com/u8kebNM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/IYFlKYk.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 19, 2020, 01:02:43 AM
Now!

Who is this (focus on YELLOW BOX------------please DISREGARD red arrow!) in the Towner film, standing on a lower step very close to Mr Carl Edward Jones, and enthusiastically waving something at the limousine?

(https://i.imgur.com/u8kebNM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/IYFlKYk.gif)

 Thumb1:

The person gets cut off at the splice. Convenient.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 19, 2020, 02:02:56 AM
The person gets cut off at the splice. Convenient.

Bummer dude.

Now!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 19, 2020, 02:06:09 AM
Perfectly happy to admit that, Mr Storing. All I care about here is getting to the truth, one way or the other! Thumb1:

For some time now I have believed that BLUE arrow is Mr Oswald (i.e. Prayer Man), YELLOW arrow Mr Shelley (just behind Mr Lovelady)----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pjUnXgy.jpg)

I tried (harder perhaps than anyone!) to find a credible counter-candidate for Prayer Man, but I got precisely nowhere. It's looking more and more to me like Prayer Man really is Mr Oswald.

The way I see it, Mr Oswald-------------after his visit to the second floor lunchroom--------------stays indoors on the first floor, keeping an eye out (through the glass front door) for the motorcade. Not being one for mingling or small talk, he waits until the latest possible moment to pop outside. He takes up his position over by the west wall of the entrance. He's holding his coke & sandwich/apple.

Just before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, i.e. just before Mr Oswald steps outside, Ms Arnold spots him standing behind the glass door. She does not notice him after that.

NOW!

From just that small crop, that looks like Lovelady to me.

Reddish shirt, yes?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  NOW!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2020, 02:00:11 PM
The person gets cut off at the splice. Convenient.

What are you talking about, Mr Down?  ::)

(https://i.imgur.com/TeOsZUP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fPavxgG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Hr3tkst.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iFTwFqC.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2020, 02:06:50 PM

The way I see it, Mr Oswald-------------after his visit to the second floor lunchroom--------------stays indoors on the first floor, keeping an eye out (through the glass front door) for the motorcade. Not being one for mingling or small talk, he waits until the latest possible moment to pop outside. He takes up his position over by the west wall of the entrance. He's holding his coke & sandwich/apple.

Just before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, i.e. just before Mr Oswald steps outside, Ms Arnold spots him standing behind the glass door. She does not notice him after that.

From Mr Bill Shelley's 3/18/64 interview report:

(https://i.imgur.com/1eQO8n8.jpg)

Oops!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
Here's Mr Lovelady in Hughes, standing right behind Mr Carl Edward Jones----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/YyXV3Ox.gif)

A few seconds later, in Towner, Mr Lovelady appears to be in the same spot (YELLOW arrow)-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/OAxE0EF.jpg)

So who's the person below and just east of Mr Lovelady (PINK arrow) waving something enthusiastically at JFK and Ms Kennedy?

(https://i.imgur.com/UtqdFHh.gif)

I believe it may be Ms Carolyn Arnold, who has just arrived at those steps----------her arrival noticed by both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 19, 2020, 04:37:09 PM
Here's Mr Lovelady in Hughes, standing right behind Mr Carl Edward Jones----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/YyXV3Ox.gif)

A few seconds later, in Towner, Mr Lovelady appears to be in the same spot (YELLOW arrow)-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/OAxE0EF.jpg)

So who's the person below and just east of Mr Lovelady (PINK arrow) waving something enthusiastically at JFK and Ms Kennedy?

(https://i.imgur.com/UtqdFHh.gif)

I believe it may be Ms Carolyn Arnold, who has just arrived at those steps----------her arrival noticed by both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley.

 Thumb1:

    The film footage showing the girl in the blue coat standing atop the pedestal, also shows the Back of someone stepping Down off the curb into Houston St and looking in the direction of the JFK Limo as it begins turning onto Elm St. and then passing by the TSBD. Is this person Amos Euins? The person is: (1) Short, (2) wearing a Light Colored Jacket and (3) maybe a Hat. This person is in very Close Proximity to the Pedestal with the Blue Coated Girl standing atop it. This is the Same Pedestal that Euins claimed to have ducked behind as shots were being fired.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 19, 2020, 08:36:12 PM
What are you talking about, Mr Down?  ::)

(https://i.imgur.com/TeOsZUP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fPavxgG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Hr3tkst.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iFTwFqC.jpg)

By bad. I thought the spice was cutting it off.

Though to be fair, the spice is suspicious. There was not much of that film there to begin with. It is only about 8 seconds in length. So to have images taken out in the middle, hence the jump that can be seen, leads to having to ask if someone wanted something taken out for some reason.

Also why did Towner cut off at the end. If she had kept filming, she could have made millions like Zapruder.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 19, 2020, 10:01:03 PM
My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Ve8lufE.jpg)

Ms Arnold's presence on those steps was erased from history. Because she told the 'investigating' authorities she noticed Mr Lee Harvey Oswald when she went back to that front entrance just before the Presidential parade arrived. (Unlike those already on the steps, she was facing in that direction before she reached them.) They took her statement and distorted it beyond recognition. They made her think her story had gone into the official record. That story also included a sighting of Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade-------------a story which chimed perfectly with what Mr Oswald had claimed in custody, despite the fact that Ms Arnold was not privy to any of the interrogations.

Ms Arnold was, in short, the witness from hell. And so she wasn't called before the Warren Commission.

Years later, Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers contacted Ms Arnold. When she was told what was in her FBI interview report, she reacted very defensively to any suggestion she spotted Mr Oswald behind the front glass door. But she protested a little too much... Why, researchers had to wonder, would the FBI have concocted an Oswald sighting at the front door? Must have come from somewhere! The rational answer: They took what she told them and changed the timeframe, made her location vague enough-----and put words of doubt as to the identification into her mouth...

(https://i.imgur.com/heUcVA0.jpg)

This provided insulation against the eventuality of Ms Arnold's going public with her sighting. 'Oh, that's not quite what the young lady told us. See for yourself--here's the official interview report.'

By 1978, Ms Arnold no longer wished to tell her story-------------or at least: she now was only prepared to talk about the lunchroom part. Understandable!

However, if I've got this right, then I hope that, while there's still time, she decides to reveal the truth. Because along with Mr BW Frazier (and possibly Mr Roy Edward Lewis), she may be the only living witness left who can finally confirm Mr Oswald's alibi.

In the meantime, thank you, Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:

“When the author contacted Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that the FBI had misquoted her, came before the author explained to her the importance of Oswald’s whereabouts at given moments. Arnold’s recollection of what she observed was clear - spotting Oswald had been her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What she claimed she told the FBI is very different from the Bureau report of her comments.
       “About a quarter of an hour before the assassination,” she said in 1978, “I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment….Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.”
       Arnold had some reason to remember having gone into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. She also recalled, in 1978, that this was “about 12:15. It may have been slightly later.””

[“Not In Your Lifetime”, Anthony Summers pgs 91,92]

The pregnant lady in the middle of this pic is thought to be Carolyn Arnold being moved away from the TSBD steps minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QQ0KpWg/Carolyn-Arnold-Johnston-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcCG65x5)

She is identified as the lady on the far right of the steps as we look at them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0cfYWRK/Carolyn-Arnold-in-Darnell-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 20, 2020, 12:33:19 AM
An excellent find there, Mr. Ford, regarding Bill Shelley's 3/18/64 interview report confirming Ms. Arnold's close proximity to the unfolding action from her vantage point upon the front entrance stairs. Speaking of Ms. Arnold, and taking Mr. O'meara's photo bearing her name into account, I have a question for you. No rush making a response as I'm off for work until next weekend. Just the same sir., with that photo in mind, In your opinion is the figure standing there to Mr. Frazier's left possibly a heavy-set woman? Could she be in excess of 300lbs?

That said, now moving along to Mr. Roy Edward Lewis, given Mr. Frazier's height & the other folks standing there outside just beyond the glass doors where he says he viewed the P-parade from the inside,  In your opinion, Would it have been much easier for him to have viewed the action from behind Prayer Man's position, where it is less densely crowded? That said, am left to wonder if he is being fully truthful about who & what he observed out there that afternoon?

What kind of people can live with themselves knowing an outright lie masquerading as truth is being presented as fact? Mr. Frazier knows the truth. Mr. Molina knew the truth. I also believe Mr. Lewis knows the truth too. I get it, courage doesn't grow on trees, self-preservation is the highest priority and fear can be paralyzing at times, especially when it comes down to protecting one's family/loved ones at all cost.









Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2020, 02:39:01 PM
The pregnant lady in the middle of this pic is thought to be Carolyn Arnold being moved away from the TSBD steps minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QQ0KpWg/Carolyn-Arnold-Johnston-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcCG65x5)

She is identified as the lady on the far right of the steps as we look at them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0cfYWRK/Carolyn-Arnold-in-Darnell-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I honestly have doubts as to the safeness of the identification as Ms Arnold of the pregnant lady in the street. Beyond the fact that she's pregnant, what is the basis for this identification?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2020, 02:54:01 PM
An excellent find there, Mr. Ford, regarding Bill Shelley's 3/18/64 interview report confirming Ms. Arnold's close proximity to the unfolding action from her vantage point upon the front entrance stairs. Speaking of Ms. Arnold, and taking Mr. O'meara's photo bearing her name into account, I have a question for you. No rush making a response as I'm off for work until next weekend. Just the same sir., with that photo in mind, In your opinion is the figure standing there to Mr. Frazier's left possibly a heavy-set woman? Could she be in excess of 300lbs?

Those forearms look to me to be too slim for Ms Stanton, who (besides) would have been further back in the shadows alongside Mr Frazier. I think this also rules out Ms Sanders, who was standing beside Ms Stanton. Best bet would be either Ms Avery Davis or Ms Judy McCully (neither of whom worked on the second floor).

(Interesting Sidebar! Mr B. Kamp spoke with Ms McCully's daughter in 2018. She said her mom told her she was actually on the 4th floor at the time of the shooting...)

Quote
That said, now moving along to Mr. Roy Edward Lewis, given Mr. Frazier's height & the other folks standing there outside just beyond the glass doors where he says he viewed the P-parade from the inside,  In your opinion, Would it have been much easier for him to have viewed the action from behind Prayer Man's position, where it is less densely crowded? That said, am left to wonder if he is being fully truthful about who & what he observed out there that afternoon?

Mr Lewis gave a radio interview a while back in which he claimed to have been out on the steps (and not behind the front door). At one point, he let the interviewer persuade him he was the figure in Altgens we know to be Mr Carl Edward Jones-----------------not exactly a point in favor of Mr Lewis's credibility!

His March '64 description of his whereabouts at the time of the assassination? 'I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository...'

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Can't help wondering also is Mr Jones over by the (indoor) west wall in Darnell, messing with our perception of Prayer Man's posture?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 20, 2020, 04:37:25 PM
Good afternoon Mr. Ford,

I realize I am a bit late to the party so to speak, and that the thread has moved forward from the Hosty note to photographs of the front entrance of the TSBD, but hope you could answer the following questions:

1) When was the note discovered?
2) Who discovered it?
3) Where was it found?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2020, 06:26:51 PM
Good afternoon Mr. Ford,

I realize I am a bit late to the party so to speak, and that the thread has moved forward from the Hosty note to photographs of the front entrance of the TSBD, but hope you could answer the following questions:

1) When was the note discovered?
2) Who discovered it?
3) Where was it found?

Thanks in advance.

Hello, Mr van de Wiel!

1) Feb. 2019.
2) Mr Bart Kamp.
3) The Hosty papers at NARA (photocopied by researcher Mr Malcolm Blunt).

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 22, 2020, 11:21:09 PM
Been wondering about this Gif recently. Does anyone know what the apparent light source being held by the Shadow Person is?

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tCHkwMg/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 06:28:01 PM
No takers, eh?
I'll describe what I'm seeing, see if it rings any bells with you smokers out there. The Shadow Person is, as the name would suggest, a person stood completely in the shadows, no part of their body is being hit by sunlight. This tells me that the light source held in the hand isn't an object reflecting the sun which also tells me the light source is 'self-generating'. The order of the two images is also important. Using Lovelady's motion down the steps I think it is safe to say the image where the light source is being held to the face comes first. Taking a closer look at the images it is possible to make out, using the hairline as a reference point, that in the first image the face is tilted slightly downward and then straightens up in the second.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbxqt6b6/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

A 'self-generating' light source being held to a slightly tilted head. As a smoker myself I'm aware that when someone offers you a light you tilt your head slightly forward to receive it, what is strange, when I come to think of it, is that when you light your own cigarette you very often do the same tilting of the head even though it seems unnecessary:

(https://i.postimg.cc/c435bWCR/Lighting-Cigarette-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJFDn4kS/Lighting-Cigarette-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XY8LRYbC/Lighting-Cigarette-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

These are just a few images from dozens I could have chosen from. Very often the other hand is cupped around the cigarette to protect the flame from any wind but you need both hands to be free in order to do this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qR8zFzff/Lighting-Cigarette-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6BkRpMm/Lighting-Cigarette-5.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Also, if you have both hands free you will take the cigarette out of your mouth with one hand and blow out the match being held in the other but if you only have one hand free you will move the flame away from your face and shake it out. Going back to the close-up Gif. In the second image, the one where the head straightens up, the lower part of the face seems strangely distorted. It looks to me like it could possibly be a plume of smoke.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbxqt6b6/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I have only very basic tools for photo enhancement but two things seem to be suggested -

1) The light source seems brightest in the centre
2) The possibility of a cigarette-end glowing

I can't be sure of these things because, as I say, I am using very basic tools that could be throwing up all kinds of artificial artefacts. Take a look at the close-up Gif and see what you think - is it someone leaning in to light a cigarette then straightening up and blowing out a cloud of smoke?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 23, 2020, 07:31:19 PM
It could be a smoker, yes. I use both hands to light up, indoors or out.

Back then, almost everybody smoked, but Oswald didn't. Does the light suddenly disappear in the rest of the footage, i.e. the lighter was switched off?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 23, 2020, 07:41:13 PM
The head bobs down. I think he's taking a picture. People bob their head down when putting a camera up to their face.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 07:52:17 PM

  Yeah, there is a possible Head Bob. Problem is, when lighting a cigarette back in "63" when there was Not Bic Lighters emitting a Blow Torch Flame, people normally used matchbook matches and covered/cupped the flame and cigarette with Both Hands. The covering of the Flame/Cigarette with the hands would Not permit a camera from capturing the Flame/Glow on film.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 09:00:53 PM
  Yeah, there is a possible Head Bob. Problem is, when lighting a cigarette back in "63" when there was Not Bic Lighters emitting a Blow Torch Flame, people normally used matchbook matches and covered/cupped the flame and cigarette with Both Hands. The covering of the Flame/Cigarette with the hands would Not permit a camera from capturing the Flame/Glow on film.
The size of the flame is an artefact of enhancement and the cupping issue was dealt with. Read the post. What's your take on the light source?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 09:07:13 PM
And you're right, they didn't have Bic lighters in '63. They had serious lighters:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gky767cG/cigarette-lighters.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 09:58:20 PM
And you're right, they didn't have Bic lighters in '63. They had serious lighters:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gky767cG/cigarette-lighters.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
 
   Yeah, these are the lighters that Bogey made famous back when he was lighting up Bacall. Some were stand alone eye catchers that sat on a coffee table. The flame emitted by these lighters is Minimal in Height as well as Brightness. I will say this in your favor, IF someone that was employed in the TSBD had a lighter such as You have displayed, it would be a Woman and when Not in use it would rest inside her purse with her Compact. Knockarounds like Lovelady, Frazier, etc did Not carry lighters like this around.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 10:13:31 PM
 
   Yeah, these are the lighters that Bogey made famous back when he was lighting up Bacall. Some were stand alone eye catchers that sat on a coffee table. The flame emitted by these lighters is Minimal in Height as well as Brightness. I will say this in your favor, IF someone that was employed in the TSBD had a lighter such as You have displayed, it would be a Woman and when Not in use it would rest inside her purse with her Compact. Knockarounds like Lovelady, Frazier, etc did Not carry lighters like this around.

I'm pretty sure Zippo Lighters like the silver one at the top have a large flame. As for the 'Brightness' of flames in the '60's, not really sure you know what you're talking about but you may be an expert in such matters for all I know.
Still no thought on the light source itself?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 10:31:00 PM

  There has been so much manipulation of the JFK Assassination images in general, I kinda shake my head at the brightness your whatever that image you proffered shows. When I look at that image undoctored, my thought is I am seeing a White Styrofoam cup. These throwaway cups were usually stacked next to the large coffee pots that used to sit in break rooms, lobby's, cafeterias, etc. A person drinking coffee out of a White Styrofoam Cup would also account for the head tilting back and forth.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 10:42:38 PM
  There has been so much manipulation of the JFK Assassination images in general, I kinda shake my head at the brightness your whatever that image you proffered shows. When I look at that image undoctored, my thought is I am seeing a White Styrofoam cup. These throwaway cups were usually stacked next to the large coffee pots that used to sit in break rooms, lobby's, cafeterias, etc. A person drinking coffee out of a White Styrofoam Cup would also account for the head tilting back and forth.
I  had thought of something along those lines originally but was dissuaded by two things - when the 'cup' is held to the face the head is tilted forward (not a natural drinking position) and when it is in the lower position the hand holding it would obscure it.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 11:22:53 PM

  Head bob aside, the GIF you posted does show the object Emitting Light/Glowing or reflecting Light. Being this person is supposed to be buried in shadow rules out a reflection. I have seen cameras used prior to "63" with Flash Bulbs. When the flash bulb FLASHES it actually Pops and then maintains a Glow for a few seconds. To me, The Light on your GIF is too large to be from a cigarette lighter. The size of that light covers half of the entire face/head. This is why I wonder what has been done to that image. If that light has been augmented/Brightened in order to make it easier to see, this might also be distorting its' overall size. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 24, 2020, 10:40:18 AM
It could be a smoker, yes. I use both hands to light up, indoors or out.

Back then, almost everybody smoked, but Oswald didn't. Does the light suddenly disappear in the rest of the footage, i.e. the lighter was switched off?

Nice one Joffrey, I hadn't actually thought of that. The Gif I posted is, I believe, taken from Wiegman. The following pic is from Darnell a matter of seconds later and in it there is no light source:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfrpVtxH/Shadow-Person-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This strongly argues for the light source being something that can 'on or off'. If it is an object such as a cup or a bottle then where does it go in Darnell just seconds later?


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 24, 2020, 10:55:04 AM
The head bobs down. I think he's taking a picture. People bob their head down when putting a camera up to their face.

Hadn't thought of a camera. Not sure how the light source works for that but the main problem for me is that this person has thought to take a camera to work to take pics of the Presidential parade and then stands in the worst spot possible for taking pics of it. In Wiegman the motorcade has already passed by so they would be taking snaps of...Wiegman.
Also, where does the camera suddenly disappear to in Darnell?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 24, 2020, 05:01:53 PM
Nice one Joffrey, I hadn't actually thought of that. The Gif I posted is, I believe, taken from Wiegman. The following pic is from Darnell a matter of seconds later and in it there is no light source:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfrpVtxH/Shadow-Person-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This strongly argues for the light source being something that can 'on or off'. If it is an object such as a cup or a bottle then where does it go in Darnell just seconds later?

    The position of Both Hands at roughly chest height would be highly unusual for a smoker holding a lighted cigarette in only 1 hand. Based on the position of Both hands, what I see is more along the lines of a beverage/coffee? CUP. Suppose someone, (possibly a female), quickly ducked out of their office while carrying their coffee filled Personal Coffee Cup with them?  Their intention was to catch a quick glimpse of Jackie/JFK cruising by the TSBD and then quickly get back to work inside.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 24, 2020, 10:44:28 PM
Those forearms look to me to be too slim for Ms Stanton, who (besides) would have been further back in the shadows alongside Mr Frazier. I think this also rules out Ms Sanders, who was standing beside Ms Stanton. Best bet would be either Ms Avery Davis or Ms Judy McCully (neither of whom worked on the second floor).

(Interesting Sidebar! Mr B. Kamp spoke with Ms McCully's daughter in 2018. She said her mom told her she was actually on the 4th floor at the time of the shooting...)

Mr Lewis gave a radio interview a while back in which he claimed to have been out on the steps (and not behind the front door). At one point, he let the interviewer persuade him he was the figure in Altgens we know to be Mr Carl Edward Jones-----------------not exactly a point in favor of Mr Lewis's credibility!

His March '64 description of his whereabouts at the time of the assassination? 'I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository...'

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Can't help wondering also is Mr Jones over by the (indoor) west wall in Darnell, messing with our perception of Prayer Man's posture?

 Thumb1:

We mutually agree on that point, quote ---->

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Am sitting here pondering how many times--prior to February 1964--he was making every good faith attempt to share his personal experience, and subsequent observations of the wrongly-accused standing right out there on those front entrance steps...which somehow fell upon deaf ears even within his own community. Considering his young age (17), perhaps many of his much older & wiser elders considered he was full of foolish talk. It wouldn't have been the first time, nor the last, when a young person will be largely ignored about their "perception" of an important event.

Of course, less than 48 days after November 22, 1963, his alarming-ramblings somehow made their way out of the comfy confines of his own community back down to the authorities who paid him a little visit ---->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339197/m1/1/

From that day forward, I believe young Mr. Lewis saw the "light" and knew precisely which way the wind was blowing. We can add Mr. Molina & Mr. Frazier to the club as well.

*Sidebar: Though Mr. Lewis is listed in most documents as 17, the above document incorrectly aged him 4 years in merely a two month period.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 24, 2020, 11:11:08 PM

    Based on the still frame image I am looking at, the Ovalish/Wide Upper Torso = a Pregnant Woman.  The Thin Head does Not match the Bulky upper torso = a Pregnant Woman.  And...... a Coffee Cup fits Perfectly into HER (R) Hand & Body Stance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 24, 2020, 11:15:19 PM
My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Ve8lufE.jpg)

Ms Arnold's presence on those steps was erased from history. Because she told the 'investigating' authorities she noticed Mr Lee Harvey Oswald when she went back to that front entrance just before the Presidential parade arrived. (Unlike those already on the steps, she was facing in that direction before she reached them.) They took her statement and distorted it beyond recognition. They made her think her story had gone into the official record. That story also included a sighting of Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade-------------a story which chimed perfectly with what Mr Oswald had claimed in custody, despite the fact that Ms Arnold was not privy to any of the interrogations.

Ms Arnold was, in short, the witness from hell. And so she wasn't called before the Warren Commission.

Years later, Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers contacted Ms Arnold. When she was told what was in her FBI interview report, she reacted very defensively to any suggestion she spotted Mr Oswald behind the front glass door. But she protested a little too much... Why, researchers had to wonder, would the FBI have concocted an Oswald sighting at the front door? Must have come from somewhere! The rational answer: They took what she told them and changed the timeframe, made her location vague enough-----and put words of doubt as to the identification into her mouth...

(https://i.imgur.com/heUcVA0.jpg)

This provided insulation against the eventuality of Ms Arnold's going public with her sighting. 'Oh, that's not quite what the young lady told us. See for yourself--here's the official interview report.'

By 1978, Ms Arnold no longer wished to tell her story-------------or at least: she now was only prepared to talk about the lunchroom part. Understandable!

However, if I've got this right, then I hope that, while there's still time, she decides to reveal the truth. Because along with Mr BW Frazier (and possibly Mr Roy Edward Lewis), she may be the only living witness left who can finally confirm Mr Oswald's alibi.

In the meantime, thank you, Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:

   Bump regarding Physical Appearance of a Pregnant Woman.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 24, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
The head bobs down. I think he's taking a picture. People bob their head down when putting a camera up to their face.

An interesting assessment. 

Conjures up thoughts about the small spy camera found within the possessions of the wrongly accused by DPD Detective Gus Rose ----->

A camera smaller than a cigar and weighing less than a cigarette lighter. -- *This description of the original Minox camera is taken from German manufacturer-company literature



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 01:14:28 AM
An interesting assessment. 

Conjures up thoughts about the small spy camera found within the possessions of the wrongly accused by DPD Detective Gus Rose ----->

A camera smaller than a cigar and weighing less than a cigarette lighter. -- *This description of the original Minox camera is taken from German manufacturer-company literature

Somebody bringing a camera to work in order to take pictures of the President would hardly be stood in this position. They would surely move the short distance to the edge of Elm Street to do so. Taking pictures of the backs of people lined up to see the motorcade pass by hardly seems worthwhile going to the effort of bringing in the camera, not to mention the President has already passed by.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 25, 2020, 03:09:00 AM
A bombshell revelation @ Ms. Judith McCully's clarification where she really was positioned when the P-parade passed the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) on Friday, November 22, 1963.

Is this yet another instance where the authorities dictated the "evidence"? What did this young lady observe from her actual position on an upper floor inside the building that afternoon that necessitated her removal to outside? Did she confirm the immediate actions of Ms. Adams & Ms. Styles? Did her actual position upstairs & inside the building debunk the hastily contrived script about a lone gunman descending the backstairs?

Was she, Ms. Adams, Ms. Styles and Ms. Arnold victims of misogynistic behavior? In the early 1960's, Were women expected to be seen and not heard?

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly. It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.
-- Belin

It should make all the difference in the world, Mr. Belin.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 10:06:09 AM
An interesting assessment. 

Conjures up thoughts about the small spy camera found within the possessions of the wrongly accused by DPD Detective Gus Rose ----->

A camera smaller than a cigar and weighing less than a cigarette lighter. -- *This description of the original Minox camera is taken from German manufacturer-company literature

 ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjK7BxbD/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The arguments against this being a camera held to the face are as follows:

It doesn't make sense to be taking photographs from this position  - in the '60's taking photos was not like it is today. Back then film was precious and people approached taking snaps in a different than we do today. There were only a very limited amount of pics that could be taken and, compared to today, it was a relatively expensive and time-consuming operation. Standing in the corner of the TSBD front entrance makes no sense as a place to take pictures. The pictures would be of the backs of those lining Elm Street mostly obscuring the Presidential motorcade. If it was someone taking a photos I feel confident they would walk the very short distance to the edge of Elm Street to capture the unique occurrence of the President driving by their place of work.
In the first image the head tilts forward when the light source is close to the face - its an unnatural position to tilt your head to look through a viewfinder unless you're taking a picture of the ground and it's more customary to hold the camera up to your face rather than lean your head forward to meet the camera.
We know the light source isn't a reflection of sunlight so what is the source of light. A flash bulb? Seems most unlikely it would be visible in both the upper and lower position of the arms but most importantly, it was a beautiful sunny day, a flash bulb wouldn't be used!
Where is this relatively bulky item in the Darnell image taken seconds later?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
    The position of Both Hands at roughly chest height would be highly unusual for a smoker holding a lighted cigarette in only 1 hand. Based on the position of Both hands, what I see is more along the lines of a beverage/coffee? CUP. Suppose someone, (possibly a female), quickly ducked out of their office while carrying their coffee filled Personal Coffee Cup with them?  Their intention was to catch a quick glimpse of Jackie/JFK cruising by the TSBD and then quickly get back to work inside.
I agree, it would be highly unusual to hold a cigarette with both hands. So unusual it seems like a ridiculous point to make.
Both hands to hold a cup? What's it made of? Solid gold?
The right arm is in a perfectly natural position to be holding a cigarette, if the person is holding something else in their other hand it might explain the position of the left arm but this position doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the right arm. Your assumption that both hands are being used to hold an object is nothing more than that.
How is this cup generating light in the Wiegman Gif when the sun isn't reflecting off it? How is it generating light when the hand would be obscuring it in the lower position? If the object being held in the hand is something to drink out of why is the head tilted downward? This is not the way to drink anything.

Why is this person getting back to work when its the lunch break? There's still about a quarter of an hour to go before anyone has to get back inside to work.
This is obviously not something you've given much thought to. The idea that it is someone lighting a cigarette answers all these questions and more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjK7BxbD/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on July 25, 2020, 01:50:58 PM
I think a Coke bottle is the most likely explanation.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 25, 2020, 04:35:12 PM
I agree, it would be highly unusual to hold a cigarette with both hands. So unusual it seems like a ridiculous point to make.
Both hands to hold a cup? What's it made of? Solid gold?
The right arm is in a perfectly natural position to be holding a cigarette, if the person is holding something else in their other hand it might explain the position of the left arm but this position doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the right arm. Your assumption that both hands are being used to hold an object is nothing more than that.
How is this cup generating light in the Wiegman Gif when the sun isn't reflecting off it? How is it generating light when the hand would be obscuring it in the lower position? If the object being held in the hand is something to drink out of why is the head tilted downward? This is not the way to drink anything.

Why is this person getting back to work when its the lunch break? There's still about a quarter of an hour to go before anyone has to get back inside to work.
This is obviously not something you've given much thought to. The idea that it is someone lighting a cigarette answers all these questions and more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjK7BxbD/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 25, 2020, 04:37:47 PM
Nice one Joffrey, I hadn't actually thought of that. The Gif I posted is, I believe, taken from Wiegman. The following pic is from Darnell a matter of seconds later and in it there is no light source:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfrpVtxH/Shadow-Person-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This strongly argues for the light source being something that can 'on or off'. If it is an object such as a cup or a bottle then where does it go in Darnell just seconds later?

   Bump regarding the Time Gap between Images. In this Image, workers are Now in the process of Re-Entering the TSBD After the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 09:24:00 PM
   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.

What's the time gap between the images?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:20:05 PM
No takers, eh?
I'll describe what I'm seeing, see if it rings any bells with you smokers out there. The Shadow Person is, as the name would suggest, a person stood completely in the shadows, no part of their body is being hit by sunlight.

How do you know this?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:26:37 PM
I think a Coke bottle is the most likely explanation.

Fred

It's very possible, Mr Clements. According to Mr James Hackerott, who has viewed the version of the Darnell film in the Sixth Floor Museum, this dark line is very obvious-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Gl4BBQZ.gif)

He suggests it's something being worn around a (lady's) neck. I think it is more likely to be a Coca Cola bottle in a (man's!) hand.

If so, then its brightness in Wiegman would be due to its catching some direct sunlight.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:34:21 PM
We mutually agree on that point, quote ---->

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Am sitting here pondering how many times--prior to February 1964--he was making every good faith attempt to share his personal experience, and subsequent observations of the wrongly-accused standing right out there on those front entrance steps...which somehow fell upon deaf ears even within his own community. Considering his young age (17), perhaps many of his much older & wiser elders considered he was full of foolish talk. It wouldn't have been the first time, nor the last, when a young person will be largely ignored about their "perception" of an important event.

Of course, less than 48 days after November 22, 1963, his alarming-ramblings somehow made their way out of the comfy confines of his own community back down to the authorities who paid him a little visit ---->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339197/m1/1/

From that day forward, I believe young Mr. Lewis saw the "light" and knew precisely which way the wind was blowing. We can add Mr. Molina & Mr. Frazier to the club as well.

*Sidebar: Though Mr. Lewis is listed in most documents as 17, the above document incorrectly aged him 4 years in merely a two month period.

A fascinating document, sir!  Thumb1: Same deal as with Messrs Shelley, Lovelady, Frazier and Molina, and with (IMO) Ms Carolyn Arnold-----------the 'investigating' authorities were very exercised about front entrance witnesses who either said they had seen, or must have seen, Mr Oswald out front at the time of the shooting.

I reckon Mr Lewis denied having seen Mr Oswald from the start. But the 'investigating' authorities knew where he was and what he must have seen there. So they did 'due diligence' on him, as per the document you have linked to. Nasty stuff!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.

We can also rule out a lit match as it brings zero illumination to the face as the hand goes up to the face.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 04:11:59 PM
   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.

The time gap is approximately four seconds between the images which is a perfectly normal time to light a cigarette then hold the light away before extinguishing, particularly if it's a match and not a lighter. No-one is trying to break cigarette-lighting records here. It's a casual action, not necessarily immediate. Of course a cigarette can be lit in less than four seconds before extinguishing the light but this time gap is in no way abnormal. The point is this - if the gap were, say 10 seconds, then I would agree it would rule out a cigarette being lit but the fact is the time-gap factor (something I'd not actually thought about) is within perfectly normal parameters, which only strengthens the argument I'm putting forward.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 04:22:14 PM
How do you know this?

It's as though you're trying to be like John but you don't really know what you're doing. The answer "I'm using my eyes and I can see that the person is completely in shadow" is not going to cut it with someone asking this type of question. I'm sure you'll counter with "How do you know you're using your eyes?"
Is there any reason you might think the Shadow Person is not completely in shadow?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 26, 2020, 04:29:17 PM
The time gap is approximately four seconds between the images which is a perfectly normal time to light a cigarette then hold the light away before extinguishing, particularly if it's a match and not a lighter. No-one is trying to break cigarette-lighting records here. It's a casual action, not necessarily immediate. Of course a cigarette can be lit in less than four seconds before extinguishing the light but this time gap is in no way abnormal. The point is this - if the gap were, say 10 seconds, then I would agree it would rule out a cigarette being lit but the fact is the time-gap factor (something I'd not actually thought about) is within perfectly normal parameters, which only strengthens the argument I'm putting forward.

    An alleged "4 second" time gap is disputable. We frequently hear about JFK Assassination eyewitnesses being in shock or just standing in place wondering what exactly has gone down with the JFK Limo speeding away, SA Hill mounting the trunk, etc. The Darnell image shows people Streaming into the TSBD. Time has obviously passed. Getting back to the actual figure, I think a woman wearing Short White Gloves ending at the Wrists is another possibility for the Illumination. She could be holding a Coke Bottle or a Cup of Joe, but short White Gloves could be the source for the Illumination/Glow.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 26, 2020, 05:23:50 PM
It's very possible, Mr Clements. According to Mr James Hackerott, who has viewed the version of the Darnell film in the Sixth Floor Museum, this dark line is very obvious-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Gl4BBQZ.gif)

He suggests it's something being worn around a (lady's) neck. I think it is more likely to be a Coca Cola bottle in a (man's!) hand.

If so, then its brightness in Wiegman would be due to its catching some direct sunlight.

 Thumb1:



Another interesting observation gentlemen (Messrs Clements & Ford) at possibility of a Coke bottle producing the light source.

Additionally, it just so happens that a Coke bottle was indeed captured on film trained upon the entrance landing (a William Allen photo if I'm not mistaken).

That particular Coke bottle was merely inches from Prayer Man's position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 06:00:11 PM
    An alleged "4 second" time gap is disputable. We frequently hear about JFK Assassination eyewitnesses being in shock or just standing in place wondering what exactly has gone down with the JFK Limo speeding away, SA Hill mounting the trunk, etc. The Darnell image shows people Streaming into the TSBD. Time has obviously passed. Getting back to the actual figure, I think a woman wearing Short White Gloves ending at the Wrists is another possibility for the Illumination. She could be holding a Coke Bottle or a Cup of Joe, but short White Gloves could be the source for the Illumination/Glow.
if I'm understanding you correctly it highlights how poor your contribution to this particular aspect of things has been. The point you raised about the time difference between the two images in the Gif I posted is totally valid. If the gap between the two images is too long my proposal of the images showing someone lighting a cigarette fails. It's a good test of the proposal.
Here's where things start to fall down. I'm talking about the time difference between these two images from Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/htyhhqJG/Prayer-Man-Light.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I used the Wiegman film to locate these two frames and roughly measure the difference between them which turned out to be approximately 4 seconds, a perfectly reasonable time to light a cigarette. But you disputed this 'alleged' timing arguing "Time has obviously passed" because of the "people Streaming into the TSBD". I looked at the images but couldn't understand what you meant. Then it dawned on me - you're talking about the time difference between the Wiegman and Darnell images!!!

WTF ???

And now you're just making the first thing that comes into your head about what the light source might be. White gloves? Really? Why is it glowing? Why aren't both hands glowing? Why has it stopped glowing in the Darnell clip?
Maybe it's Michael Jackson with a single sequined glove on?
Doesn't it look like someone lighting a cigarette and blowing out smoke?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5WQNr7h/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 26, 2020, 06:02:23 PM
*Crediting Mr. Unger's Photograph Gallery, specifically the William Allen set here's that photo depicting the Coke bottle in Prayer Man's location ---->

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=37&pos=60

...just beyond the pointing fore-finger of DPD Chief of Police Jesse Curry, nestled way back up there in Prayer's Man viewing position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 26, 2020, 06:28:13 PM
if I'm understanding you correctly it highlights how poor your contribution to this particular aspect of things has been. The point you raised about the time difference between the two images in the Gif I posted is totally valid. If the gap between the two images is too long my proposal of the images showing someone lighting a cigarette fails. It's a good test of the proposal.
Here's where things start to fall down. I'm talking about the time difference between these two images from Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/htyhhqJG/Prayer-Man-Light.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I used the Wiegman film to locate these two frames and roughly measure the difference between them which turned out to be approximately 4 seconds, a perfectly reasonable time to light a cigarette. But you disputed this 'alleged' timing arguing "Time has obviously passed" because of the "people Streaming into the TSBD". I looked at the images but couldn't understand what you meant. Then it dawned on me - you're talking about the time difference between the Wiegman and Darnell images!!!

WTF ???

And now you're just making the first thing that comes into your head about what the light source might be. White gloves? Really? Why is it glowing? Why aren't both hands glowing? Why has it stopped glowing in the Darnell clip?
Maybe it's Michael Jackson with a single sequined glove on?
Doesn't it look like someone lighting a cigarette and blowing out smoke?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5WQNr7h/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

   Without getting Nasty, I think we are getting back into whatever "augmentation" has been inflicted on these still frames. The Brightness/Glow we are seeing radically contrasts with Everything else in the image. Also, if you believe that person is Standing atop the Landing and is close to the Wall on the immediate (R), that area is Totally immersed in shadow as has been Photo Proven. This makes that extreme Brightness for an extended period of time further questionable. As to the time stamping of Images captured by Different sources, this also touches on the currently accepted Time Stamping of Lovelady and Shelly in contrast to their own Warren Commission Testimony. In general, I personally believe the Time Stamping of many JFK Assassination Images has intentionally been Manipulated/Coordinated to facilitate the manufactured WC story line. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 06:44:22 PM
   Without getting Nasty, I think we are getting back into whatever "augmentation" has been inflicted on these still frames. The Brightness/Glow we are seeing radically contrasts with Everything else in the image. Also, if you believe that person is Standing atop the Landing and is close to the Wall on the immediate (R), that area is Totally immersed in shadow as has been Photo Proven. This makes that extreme Brightness for an extended period of time further questionable. As to the time stamping of Images captured by Different sources, this also touches on the currently accepted Time Stamping of Lovelady and Shelly in contrast to their own Warren Commission Testimony. In general, I personally believe the Time Stamping of many JFK Assassination Images has intentionally been Manipulated/Coordinated to facilitate the manufactured WC story line.
No-one's being nasty Royell. I was being incredulous. IMHO you're contribution to this aspect of things has been poor. I'm sorry but I think that's a fair enough statement. If you really were talking about the time difference between the Wiegmen and the Darnell clips I think this demonstrates how poor it's been. And you do seem to be randomly throwing in suggestions as to what the light source might be without thinking it through, leaving me to do your thinking through for you. I think that's a fair enough statement as well. I don't find your contributions on this particular aspect of things to be considered,
The Time Stamping issue is your own personal belief.
Apologies if my message came across as nasty. It was more frustration than anything else.
That said, do you understand why I'm suggesting this is a person lighting a cigarette:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5WQNr7h/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 26, 2020, 07:49:25 PM


      Other images showing this same area shows us a Glow/Brightness level nowhere close to this. Does anyone know what has been done to these frames? 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 26, 2020, 11:42:40 PM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

A more likely timeline sequence of actual events that afternoon:

12:25PM: The wrongly accused, from his vantage point in the downstairs lunchroom in the back of the building, observes Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman retracing their steps back into the building.

12:28PM: Responsibly cleans up after himself in the downstairs lunchroom, then slips out front per his own admission, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade

12:31-32PM: Returns inside the building, stands just outside the first-floor storage room, amid shock & disbelief about what just unfolded. Is noticed in this downstairs area by Mr. Campbell and his accompanying party as they return inside the building.

12:34PM: Comes to the aid of Inspector Sawyer ----->

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.


12:36PM: Comes to the aid of local newsman personality Mr. Allman (Pierce), directing him to where the phones are.

12:37PM: A short while later, Now comes to the aid of Mr. MacNeil (Robert) ---->

“As I ran up the steps, this young guy in shirt sleeves came out. I said, ‘where is there a phone?’ He said, ‘you better ask inside,” MacNeil said. “I didn’t register his face because I was obsessed with finding a phone. . . . Much later, it occurred to me that I was going in just about the time Oswald had been going out.”

"went outside and stood around for 5 or 10 minutes with Bill Shelley"  --  The wrongly accused

Obviously Shelley would deny this. Obviously Inspector Sawyer couldn't identify "A Man", (nor dd WC counsel Belin seem interested in identifying, quote, This Man, either).

When we connect the dots from where the wrongly accused establishes his airtight alibi, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade, it lines up rather cohesively with where he is later sighted at the downstairs storage room, then in close proximity to the first-floor elevators brb...more to follow...

Then when we take the bombshell revelation of Ms. Judith McCully into consideration, where she stands firm now that she was indeed upstairs in her office, which just so happens to be right off the elevator when Mr. Sawyer and "This man" disembark on the 4th floor, Did Ms. McCully's observations run counter to the hastily contrived script rearing its head two flights below and in the rear of the building as oppose to "A man"'s actual position? Did the authorities help Ms. McCully to see the "light" a couple of months later when she changed her initial statement? to comply with she couldn't have seen "This man" because she was downstairs all along...

Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Off here for now ladies & gentlemen, be safe everyone & stay healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.







Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 27, 2020, 01:21:27 AM
It's as though you're trying to be like John but you don't really know what you're doing. The answer "I'm using my eyes and I can see that the person is completely in shadow" is not going to cut it with someone asking this type of question. I'm sure you'll counter with "How do you know you're using your eyes?"
Is there any reason you might think the Shadow Person is not completely in shadow?

The simple addition of “in my opinion” would resolve a lot of these conflicts you keep having.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 27, 2020, 01:37:12 AM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

A more likely timeline sequence of actual events that afternoon:

12:25PM: The wrongly accused, from his vantage point in the downstairs lunchroom in the back of the building, observes Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman retracing their steps back into the building.

12:28PM: Responsibly cleans up after himself in the downstairs lunchroom, then slips out front per his own admission, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade

12:31-32PM: Returns inside the building, stands just outside the first-floor storage room, amid shock & disbelief about what just unfolded. Is noticed in this downstairs area by Mr. Campbell and his accompanying party as they return inside the building.

12:34PM: Comes to the aid of Inspector Sawyer ----->

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.


12:36PM: Comes to the aid of local newsman personality Mr. Allman (Pierce), directing him to where the phones are.

12:37PM: A short while later, Now comes to the aid of Mr. MacNeil (Robert) ---->

“As I ran up the steps, this young guy in shirt sleeves came out. I said, ‘where is there a phone?’ He said, ‘you better ask inside,” MacNeil said. “I didn’t register his face because I was obsessed with finding a phone. . . . Much later, it occurred to me that I was going in just about the time Oswald had been going out.”

"went outside and stood around for 5 or 10 minutes with Bill Shelley"  --  The wrongly accused

Obviously Shelley would deny this. Obviously Inspector Sawyer couldn't identify "A Man", (nor dd WC counsel Belin seem interested in identifying, quote, This Man, either).

When we connect the dots from where the wrongly accused establishes his airtight alibi, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade, it lines up rather cohesively with where he is later sighted at the downstairs storage room, then in close proximity to the first-floor elevators brb...more to follow...

Then when we take the bombshell revelation of Ms. Judith McCully into consideration, where she stands firm now that she was indeed upstairs in her office, which just so happens to be right off the elevator when Mr. Sawyer and "This man" disembark on the 4th floor, Did Ms. McCully's observations run counter to the hastily contrived script rearing its head two flights below and in the rear of the building as oppose to "A man"'s actual position? Did the authorities help Ms. McCully to see the "light" a couple of months later when she changed her initial statement? to comply with she couldn't have seen "This man" because she was downstairs all along...

Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Off here for now ladies & gentlemen, be safe everyone & stay healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

If Oswald said that, then it must be true
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2020, 12:24:43 PM
The simple addition of “in my opinion” would resolve a lot of these conflicts you keep having.
You've obviously not noted how carefully worded my recent posts have been thanks to your meticulous scrutiny. What you do is important in a forum like this but it can go over the top.
As long as I'm having my little 'conflicts' it means I'm still learning. When the conflicts stop I've either found the truth or gone into denial.
Don't you think this really looks like someone lighting a cigarette  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRWL8GfW/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 27, 2020, 03:51:52 PM
Don't you think this really looks like someone lighting a cigarette  8)

Not particularly.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2020, 06:50:15 PM
Not particularly.
Out of interest, what do you think it looks like?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2020, 07:08:59 PM

Another interesting observation gentlemen (Messrs Clements & Ford) at possibility of a Coke bottle producing the light source.

Additionally, it just so happens that a Coke bottle was indeed captured on film trained upon the entrance landing (a William Allen photo if I'm not mistaken).

That particular Coke bottle was merely inches from Prayer Man's position.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

This probably accounts for the coke bottle on the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

If Oswald said that, then it must be true

If he said that, and they pretended he said something else, then it probably is true.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 28, 2020, 01:13:12 AM
Out of interest, what do you think it looks like?

A reflection.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2020, 11:29:57 AM
A reflection.

From the sun? In both positions?
The Shadow Person is completely in shadow (please demonstrate otherwise if you believe that's not the case. All I can say is "I can see that with my eyes" which hardly constitutes proof) yet, you seem to be implying, they are holding something that the sun reflects off in both the higher and lower positions without ever having any part of their body in the sun.
What could the sun be reflecting off? Well, we can safely say it's not something you drink out of. The head tilted forward when the "reflection" is close to the face seems like a completely unnatural drinking position. We can also assume the Coke bottle on the steps is Lovelady's.
I wonder what you could be referring to?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 01:07:14 PM
From the sun? In both positions?
The Shadow Person is completely in shadow (please demonstrate otherwise if you believe that's not the case. All I can say is "I can see that with my eyes" which hardly constitutes proof) yet, you seem to be implying, they are holding something that the sun reflects off in both the higher and lower positions without ever having any part of their body in the sun.
What could the sun be reflecting off? Well, we can safely say it's not something you drink out of. The head tilted forward when the "reflection" is close to the face seems like a completely unnatural drinking position. We can also assume the Coke bottle on the steps is Lovelady's.
I wonder what you could be referring to?

If this is a bottle, then (as I see it)---------

When bottle is held near-vertically, some of its lower part is forward enough to catch some sunlight

When bottle is brought up to mouth, its underside is far forward enough to catch some sunlight, as is the man's right elbow.

The man's head does not tilt forward when he brings the bottle to his mouth. It tilts back!

(https://i.imgur.com/T6ekbea.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 28, 2020, 01:34:25 PM
I don't understand the importance of Drinking Man. Y'all think it could be Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2020, 03:01:43 PM
If this is a bottle, then (as I see it)---------

When bottle is held near-vertically, some of its lower part is forward enough to catch some sunlight

When bottle is brought up to mouth, its underside is far forward enough to catch some sunlight, as is the man's right elbow.

The man's head does not tilt forward when he brings the bottle to his mouth. It tilts back!

(https://i.imgur.com/T6ekbea.gif)

I concede that the person's right elbow does indeed seem to catch the sunlight and humbly retract my earlier assertion that no part of the Shadow Person is in sunlight.
That said, I'm really struggling to see the head tilting backwards when the light source is at the face. I cannot get away from the distinct impression it is tilting forward, then straightening up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5QpX9zL/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Looking at the hairline, you really think the head is tilting backwards?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 28, 2020, 04:30:03 PM

  The shadow created by the West Wall and where that shadow Specifically falls at 12:30 on 11/22 is Well Documented. If You believe the Person-In-Question is standing: (1) atop the Landing + (2) close to the West Wall, = No Way In Hell the Sun is falling across ANY Portion of this Person-In-Question. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 04:52:08 PM
  The shadow created by the West Wall and where that shadow Specifically falls at 12:30 on 11/22 is Well Documented. If You believe the Person-In-Question is standing: (1) atop the Landing + (2) close to the West Wall, = No Way In Hell the Sun is falling across ANY Portion of this Person-In-Question.

Mr Storing, I do NOT believe Prayer Man is atop the landing------------his right elbow is way too close to the brick column:

(https://i.imgur.com/iCMPbGB.gif)

Mr Stancak has studied the shadowline VERY closely. While his reconstruction of Prayer Man's leg-posture is open to question, he has successfully shown how Prayer Man could have caught a little bit of direct sunlight:

(https://i.imgur.com/uQKEhNz.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 04:53:24 PM
I don't understand the importance of Drinking Man. Y'all think it could be Oswald?

Yes! No other credible candidate has been put forward------------after 7 years of intensive effort to find one!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 05:01:13 PM
I concede that the person's right elbow does indeed seem to catch the sunlight and humbly retract my earlier assertion that no part of the Shadow Person is in sunlight.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

Quote
That said, I'm really struggling to see the head tilting backwards when the light source is at the face. I cannot get away from the distinct impression it is tilting forward, then straightening up.

Looking at the hairline, you really think the head is tilting backwards?

That's not Prayer Man's hairline-------it's his neck/chin!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 28, 2020, 05:14:38 PM
Mr Storing, I do NOT believe Prayer Man is atop the landing------------his right elbow is way too close to the brick column:

(https://i.imgur.com/iCMPbGB.gif)

Mr Stancak has studied the shadowline VERY closely. While his reconstruction of Prayer Man's leg-posture is open to question, he has successfully shown how Prayer Man could have caught a little bit of direct sunlight:

(https://i.imgur.com/uQKEhNz.jpg)

 Thumb1:

   We can quibble as to where this Person-In-Question Might be positioned, but the muddled depiction of the West Wall Shadow as seen above is INCORRECT!  The shadow was Photographed on 11/22 and that photo was posted on a different thread. That shadow extends about midway across the Glass Door. As I recall, that shadow across the glass door was roughly straight back from the overhead  light above the landing. The above depiction of the shadow with the people further obscuring where the shadow Specifically Falls = INACCURATE. Also, based on the shadow we see above, if you are going to move the Person-In-Question DOWN onto the steps, then you also Need to Move Lovelady Down below the Person-In-Question in order for Lovelady to have that shadow falling across Half of his body. Lovelady testified that he was standing atop the Landing. The shadow depiction above is a House Of Cards that is collapsing under its own Inaccurate Weight.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2020, 07:11:17 PM
Is it my imagination or is the shadow line on the interior ceiling moving about in an unusual way? Has this been messed about with or am I having a 'senior moment'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/59GtBZgs/a-TSBD-GIF.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 09:05:14 AM
   We can quibble as to where this Person-In-Question Might be positioned, but the muddled depiction of the West Wall Shadow as seen above is INCORRECT!  The shadow was Photographed on 11/22 and that photo was posted on a different thread. That shadow extends about midway across the Glass Door. As I recall, that shadow across the glass door was roughly straight back from the overhead  light above the landing. The above depiction of the shadow with the people further obscuring where the shadow Specifically Falls = INACCURATE.

No, Mr Storing, we've been through this before. Don't you remember Mr Mytton's Epic Boo-Boo? The landing is much further back these days than it was in 1963. Mr Stancak's setting of the shadow line is spot on!  Thumb1:

Quote
Also, based on the shadow we see above, if you are going to move the Person-In-Question DOWN onto the steps, then you also Need to Move Lovelady Down below the Person-In-Question in order for Lovelady to have that shadow falling across Half of his body.

Lovelady? That's Mr Frazier in Mr Stancak's recreation!

As for the shadow falling down half of Mr Lovelady's body in Wiegman, we established many moons ago that it is fake. Mr Lovelady is nowhere near the shadow line.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 09:24:14 AM
Is it my imagination or is the shadow line on the interior ceiling moving about in an unusual way? Has this been messed about with or am I having a 'senior moment'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/59GtBZgs/a-TSBD-GIF.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

No senior moment, Mr O'Meara! Mr Wiegman's angle to the entrance is not perfectly consistent between the two frames. Note how far away the front line of spectators is, and then how close.........

(https://i.imgur.com/wl7lpPB.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on July 29, 2020, 11:22:12 AM
Is it my imagination or is the shadow line on the interior ceiling moving about in an unusual way? Has this been messed about with or am I having a 'senior moment'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/59GtBZgs/a-TSBD-GIF.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Dan, it looks like Lovelady moved down and to his right in succeeding photos.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 29, 2020, 01:46:34 PM
Yes! No other credible candidate has been put forward------------after 7 years of intensive effort to find one!

 Thumb1:

The problem is that there is not a single witness who stated he/she saw Oswald outside, in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination, right? If someone could have provided Oswald with an ironclad alibi I am sure at least one or perhaps a few would have spoken up, don't you? Especially his friend Frazier.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 03:57:29 PM
The problem is that there is not a single witness who stated he/she saw Oswald outside, in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination, right? If someone could have provided Oswald with an ironclad alibi I am sure at least one or perhaps a few would have spoken up, don't you? Especially his friend Frazier.

Or! Not a single witness was willing or allowed to go on the record stating that they had seen Mr Oswald out there. His friend Mr Frazier was threatened with a conspiracy to assassinate JFK charge. So was another employee who happened to have been standing at that door: Mr Molina. If you were told that you or your family would not be safe in the event that you failed to keep your mouth shut, would you be quick to proclaim the truth to the world?

I have no doubt that Mr Oswald

1) went unsurprisingly unnoticed by most people out on those steps (he wasn't yet famous, remember!)
2) did not go unnoticed by (at a minimum tally) Messrs Frazier, Molina, Shelley, Truly & Officer Baker

Thankfully, we have ample evidence supporting the claim that Mr Oswald did indeed go out onto those steps to watch the motorcade:

a) Mr Oswald's own claim to that effect in custody ("Then went outside to watch P. parade")
b) The lies told about Mr Oswald's claim (=proof of cover-up)
c) The distortion(s) of Ms Carolyn Arnold's witness recollection
d) The proven impossibility of the 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film (---> what, if not something Oswald-related, did they want to hide??)
e) The Day-1 statements by DPD that Mr Oswald was seen at the front entrance immediately after the shooting
f) FBI agents' intense relief (as noted by Mr Billy Lovelady) when it turned out that the man in the doorway in Altgens was not Mr Oswald
g) the presence in both the Wiegman and the Darnell films of this guy standing over on his own by the west wall of the entrance, whom nobody for the life of them can explain away as someone other than Mr Oswald (and believe me they have tried!):

(https://i.imgur.com/NKbgFvd.gif)

It seems unlikely at this stage that Mr Frazier will ever find the courage to confirm that yes, his friend was out there. At least not verbally. However, I honestly believe he may have already come clean non-verbally---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/rkCVxEz.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 03:59:46 PM
Dan, it looks like Lovelady moved down and to his right in succeeding photos.

Good grief, Mr Mitcham, you're still pushing the absurd claim that Mr Lovelady went close enough to the west wall to catch all that natural shadow?  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 29, 2020, 05:57:15 PM
Or! Not a single witness was willing or allowed to go on the record stating that they had seen Mr Oswald out there. His friend Mr Frazier was threatened with a conspiracy to assassinate JFK charge. So was another employee who happened to have been standing at that door: Mr Molina. If you were told that you or your family would not be safe in the event that you failed to keep your mouth shut, would you be quick to proclaim the truth to the world?

I have no doubt that Mr Oswald

1) went unsurprisingly unnoticed by most people out on those steps (he wasn't yet famous, remember!)
2) did not go unnoticed by (at a minimum tally) Messrs Frazier, Molina, Shelley, Truly & Officer Baker

Thankfully, we have ample evidence supporting the claim that Mr Oswald did indeed go out onto those steps to watch the motorcade:

a) Mr Oswald's own claim to that effect in custody ("Then went outside to watch P. parade")
b) The lies told about Mr Oswald's claim (=proof of cover-up)
c) The distortion(s) of Ms Carolyn Arnold's witness recollection
d) The proven impossibility of the 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film (---> what, if not something Oswald-related, did they want to hide??)
e) The Day-1 statements by DPD that Mr Oswald was seen at the front entrance immediately after the shooting
f) FBI agents' intense relief (as noted by Mr Billy Lovelady) when it turned out that the man in the doorway in Altgens was not Mr Oswald
g) the presence in both the Wiegman and the Darnell films of this guy standing over on his own by the west wall of the entrance, whom nobody for the life of them can explain away as someone other than Mr Oswald (and believe me they have tried!):

(https://i.imgur.com/NKbgFvd.gif)

It seems unlikely at this stage that Mr Frazier will ever find the courage to confirm that yes, his friend was out there. At least not verbally. However, I honestly believe he may have already come clean non-verbally---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/rkCVxEz.jpg)

 Thumb1:

   Not sure Why you are showing a Pic of the ALTERED TSBD Landing/Steps. All You are doing is further confusing people that are unaware that the Steps/Landing were Changed AFTER 11/22/63. At the time of the Assassination, that Landing was Less than 4 feet Deep, and people were actually able to lean against the West Wall due to there being No handrail on that side of the Steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 12:30:39 AM
   Not sure Why you are showing a Pic of the ALTERED TSBD Landing/Steps. All You are doing is further confusing people that are unaware that the Steps/Landing were Changed AFTER 11/22/63. At the time of the Assassination, that Landing was Less than 4 feet Deep, and people were actually able to lean against the West Wall due to there being No handrail on that side of the Steps.

Way to miss the point completely, Mr Storing!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 30, 2020, 12:44:00 AM
Way to miss the point completely, Mr Storing!

   I got your point. Other than showing the viewer Buell, that picture does More Damage than Good.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 12:49:27 AM
   I got your point. Other than showing the viewer Buell, that picture does More Damage than Good.

No, you missed my point. The picture shows Mr Frazier pointing to the very spot Prayer Man was standing in. Either he's being monumentally unmindful, or he knows just what he's doing.

But you are right: the picture does More Damage than Good-------to your bizarre cause of keeping Mr Oswald away from those steps!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 30, 2020, 01:11:22 AM
  We just disagree. The Only thing putting Oswald outside the TSBD when the JFK Limo went by is Oswald himself claiming such. How can anyone believe what is coming outta the mouth of someone carrying 2 Different ID's in their pocket? That alone destroys Oswald's credibility.

Why do you believe he was carrying 2 different IDs in his pocket?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 01:14:05 AM
  We just disagree. The Only thing putting Oswald outside the TSBD when the JFK Limo went by is Oswald himself claiming such. How can anyone believe what is coming outta the mouth of someone carrying 2 Different ID's in their pocket? That alone destroys Oswald's credibility.

someone carrying 2 Different ID's in their pocket

Did he? Really?

Bentley took Oswald's wallet of him in the car and did not find an ID in a different name. There is no report whatsoever that confirms a second ID having been found in the wallet taken from Oswald in the car.

The first time the Hidell ID pops up is at the police station, when Gus Rose (who just started work) gets handed a wallet by an unidentified cop and only then did that wallet have two ID's in it. There is not a shred of evidence this is the same wallet as the one Bentley took from Oswald in the car.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 01:39:45 AM
  If anyone believes the Alek Hidell ID Card with Oswald's pic on it was planted, just say so.

So you have no proof that Oswald actually carried two ID's in his wallet? Got it!

You can speculate and assume stuff all you want, but you can't state it as if it is a fact, when it clearly isn't.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 01:56:55 AM
  The Warren Report records the Phony ID info. Guess the Thread doesn't matter. Dumb remains Dumb.

The Warren Report?..... Are you serious? You are really that gullible?

The Warren Report cover up relies on testimony taken 5 months after the fact and that includes the Gus Rose story.

There is no first day evidence whatsoever about a Hidell ID in Oswald's wallet.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 09:38:00 AM
  We just disagree. The Only thing putting Oswald outside the TSBD when the JFK Limo went by is Oswald himself claiming such.

Glad to see you have finally accepted the reality that he did indeed make that claim!  Thumb1:

His claim was suppressed by the authorities---a fact you can't explain. Just as you can't offer a reason why a shadow would have been added to Mr Lovelady in Wiegman. Just as you can't offer an alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Etc...

Mr Oswald claimed he went outside to watch the P. parade. His accusers claim he went up to 6 to fire on it. 57 years on from the obscenity of 11/22/63, Mr Oswald's claim is looking a whole lot like the stronger one!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 10:17:21 AM
  So you also believe Oswald being Q/A'd about the phony ID is also fabricated?

No, it doesn't have to be. First of all, we don't know what was actually said as there is no verbatim record. According to his report, written a week after the events, Fritz asked Oswald about the Hidell name, but he never showed him the actual document found in the wallet that Gus Rose was given. So, the Q/A could well be authentic, as far as the name is concerned, although there is no possible way to verify that. And without that verification, the Q/A, if it ever took place, can not support the conclusion that the Hidell ID card came from the wallet that was taken from Oswald in the car by Paul Bentley.

Btw, what is this BS about what I "also believe". Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Besides, it doesn't matter what I believe.

I look at the actual evidence and find that there is no mention of a Hidell ID having been found in the wallet taken from Oswald in the car in any first day DPD report. Paul Bentley went on television the day after Oswald's arrest and he claims that he found the "usual items" such as a credit card and a driver's license in the wallet, but no mention of a second ID.

As if that, by itself, isn't already strange enough, there also is no chain of custody at all for the wallet taken from Oswald. It simply disappears for a while without a trace. That's a totally incomprehensible state of affairs, given the fact that the Hidell ID plays such a significant part in the purchases of the rifle and revolver.... and, I might add, nothing else!

Then we get to the Gus Rose story. He testifies that he was off duty and that he was called in after Kennedy was murdered. When he arrived at the station, Oswald had already been brought in. For some, inexplicable reason, Rose, who was not involved in the arrest and thus had no direct involvement in the case, suddenly gets handed a wallet by a to this day unidentified uniformed officer (Rose thinks might have been "the patrolman who brought him in") who tells him it's Oswald's wallet. The problem with that is, that the officers who brought Oswald to the police station were all plainclothes detectives.

Just like they allegedly "found" the bus ticket and spare bullets for the revolver on Oswald, some three hours after he was brought in and first searched (they missed those items in the first search? Really?), and just like Hill allegedly walked around with the revolver taken from Oswald at the Texas Theater for two hours or so, before presenting a revolver to some men in the DPD lunchroom, as being Oswald's revolver, and just like the white jacket found at a carpark, with, again, no chain of custody, suddenly turning up, back in Westbrook's possession, as a grey jacket with initials on it of DPD officers who never actually handled the jacket.... this wallet suddenly showing up out of nowhere at the police station raises serious questions about the validity of the physical evidence.

Now add to the mix the story about the wallet found at the Tippit murder scene, which did contain two ID's; one for Oswald and the other for Hidell. LNs are quick to deny it's existence, but the fact remains there was mention of a second wallet linked to Oswald and the person who found this particular wallet was an uniformed policeofficer named Croy.

A good defense lawyer would have a field day with this information!

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 30, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet. Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out, small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 30, 2020, 04:52:45 PM
Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet. Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out, small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.

Which wallet?  He allegedly had several.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 09:35:36 PM
Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet. Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out, small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.

Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet.

Doesn't matter what it looks like to you. FBI agent Bob Barrett confirms there was a wallet and he was at the scene and actually saw it. That trumps what you think.

Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out

Myers can point out anything he likes, but he wasn't there and thus only has an opinion and a biased opinion at that.

small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.

On what wallet are the details different than on Oswald's wallet?

How can those two wallets be compared when only one wallet (claimed to be Oswald's) is in the National Archive?

How in the world does Myers even know which wallet is Oswald's?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on July 31, 2020, 05:03:21 PM
 The mere fact that this note was hidden from public view for decades is enough to tell us something.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 31, 2020, 11:33:58 PM
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

This probably accounts for the coke bottle on the steps.

That is a possibility, Mr. O'meara, but given Mr. Lovelady's penchant for lying, and the fact his testimony came five months after the assassination ----->

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

it wouldn't surprise that the mechanisms by then to remove any trace of Prayer Man standing there out front in the entrance would already be well underway, thus his coke bottle morphs into yet another misleading falsehood to remove him from the scene.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 31, 2020, 11:38:37 PM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

If Oswald said that, then it must be true

Mr. Chapman, please view the astute response by Mr. Ford in Reply No. 133 within this thread (pg 14)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 12:01:45 AM
The mere fact that this note was hidden from public view for decades is enough to tell us something.

Fred

Well said, Mr. Clements, an astute assessment.

Anything revealing the truth about his innocence would certainly be hidden. A very telling dynamic. The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 01, 2020, 10:01:28 AM
Exactly Mr Ford.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 01, 2020, 11:47:49 AM
The mere fact that this note was hidden from public view for decades is enough to tell us something.

Fred

Hidden? If the note was thought to be a real problem wouldn't they just destroy it?
And doesn't it make sense that after Oswald was asked what he did after he ate lunch, Oswald would reply that he went outside to see the Parade, implying that he had no clue what was happening outside?

Oswald agreed that he was inside the building at the time. If he was outside with his workmates wouldn't he be screaming from the rooftops that he had an rock solid alibi? But obviously he knew he had no alibi because at the time he was on the 6th floor at the snipers nest window shooting Kennedy.

@1:14

JohnM

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 06:39:00 PM
That is a possibility, Mr. O'meara, but given Mr. Lovelady's penchant for lying, and the fact his testimony came five months after the assassination ----->

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

it wouldn't surprise that the mechanisms by then to remove any trace of Prayer Man standing there out front in the entrance would already be well underway, thus his coke bottle morphs into yet another misleading falsehood to remove him from the scene.
Without wanting to sound too harsh I find this to be Magical Thinking. Completely made up and based on nothing. I agree, Lovelady is a liar, but to imagine he is lying about such a trivial detail reveals a desperation to defend two very wrongheaded assumptions:
1) It's Oswald on the steps
2) The light source is a reflection off a glass bottle

My look into this case has taken me in a completely different direction than John Mytton but this is not the first time he's stepped into a thread with something devastating. Here he presents video evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

Oswald: I work in that building [the TSBD]
Reprter: Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

There are so many good arguments against the identification of Oswald as the Shadow Person but none are definitive. This is definitive.
However, too many people have spent too much time defending this nonsense and have now painted themselves into a corner. I look forward to how Magical Thinking copes with definitive video evidence of Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD during the assassination. A record of the words coming out of his own mouth.

This should be entertaining  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 07:00:56 PM
IF anyone genuinely wishes to allow audio evidence coming directly from the wrongly accused to carry irrefutable weight, then they should also give the following recorded statements the same sense of credibility ---->

(A)


(B)


Now that shared, let's examine the instance when Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman share the same space as the wrongly accused brb...excuse me as Fido is nudging me with his wet nose, signaling he wants to go out and answer nature's call...

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 07:21:12 PM
Sorry about that, love Fido but his sense of timing, well that's another matter altogether. Rascal.

Don’t know about anyone else, but where I come from no one in the front of a building six stories up can actually see anything, let alone anyone, in the back of the same building some five stories below, when s/he is supposed to be lurking in ambush five stories above in the front of the building.

There’s no way for the wrongly accused to know Mr. Jarman & Mr. Normsn were reentering the building between 12:25—12:28PM through a backdoor IF he really was anywhere near the front of the building, let alone up on the six floor, yet the wrongly accused described both these men reentering the building from the back via his vantage point in the first floor lunchroom.

90 seconds later per his own words he went outside just in time to view the P. parade. Nothing more, nothing less. The wrongly accused didn’t shoot anybody. Anybody ---->



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 08:05:24 PM
Sorry about that, love Fido but his sense of timing, well that's another matter altogether. Rascal.

Don’t know about anyone else, but where I come from no one in the front of a building six stories up can actually see anything, let alone anyone, in the back of the same building some five stories below, when s/he is supposed to be lurking in ambush five stories above in the front of the building.

There’s no way for the wrongly accused to know Mr. Jarman & Mr. Normsn were reentering the building between 12:25—12:28PM through a backdoor IF he really was anywhere near the front of the building, let alone up on the six floor, yet the wrongly accused described both these men reentering the building from the back via his vantage point in the first floor lunchroom.

90 seconds later per his own words he went outside just in time to view the P. parade. Nothing more, nothing less. The wrongly accused didn’t shoot anybody. Anybody ---->

I agree with all the statements Oswald makes in these videos. I don't believe he shot anybody. After seeing Jarman and Norman come in it seems more likely he went up to the second floor lunchroom. What is definite is that he didn't go outside to watch the parade (parade?) as we have video evidence of him specifically stating he was inside the building when the assassination took place. Something you have completely avoided dealing with.
(Fido sounds like a character, hope he's doing good)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2020, 08:11:01 PM
I agree with all the statements Oswald makes in these videos. I don't believe he shot anybody. After seeing Jarman and Norman come in it seems more likely he went up to the second floor lunchroom. What is definite is that he didn't go outside to watch the parade (parade?) as we have video evidence of him specifically stating he was inside the building when the assassination took place. Something you have completely avoided dealing with.
(Fido sounds like a character, hope he's doing good)

'he was inside the building when the assassination took place'

I agree
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 08:21:26 PM
'he was inside the building when the assassination took place'

I agree
It's hard not to. Video evidence of Oswald specifically stating it is difficult to circumnavigate.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 08:22:34 PM
I agree with all the statements Oswald makes in these videos. I don't believe he shot anybody. After seeing Jarman and Norman come in it seems more likely he went up to the second floor lunchroom. What is definite is that he didn't go outside to watch the parade (parade?) as we have video evidence of him specifically stating he was inside the building when the assassination took place. Something you have completely avoided dealing with.
(Fido sounds like a character, hope he's doing good)

On the contrary, I take the wrongly accused at his word, essentially believing that he indeed was in the building approaching the front door to head outside at the precise time of the shooting sequence. As he came completely through the door to take up his Prayer Man position Mr. Weigman (Dave) followed by Mr. Darnell (Jimmy, RIP) traveling multiples spots behind the presidential limousine in camera cars 10 & 11 respectively capture him on film after the shooting sequence. Nothing more, nothing less.

His words ---->

(A)


(B)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2020, 08:46:19 PM
It's hard not to. Video evidence of Oswald specifically stating it is difficult to circumnavigate.

He said it so it must be true.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2020, 08:52:41 PM
Mr. Chapman, please view the astute response by Mr. Ford in Reply No. 133 within this thread (pg 14)

I've never seen an astute response by any of you lot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 09:23:02 PM
Whereas only one lone witness, Mr. Piper (Eddie) says he saw Roy Truly at the rear stairs, two problems still exists for the hastily contrived script:

(1) Mr. Piper's testimony merely accounts for some guy accompanying Roy Truly, with an inference upon he was wearing street clothes instead of an unmistakable uniformed-dressed motorcycle policeman in an obvious white-helmet & long black-boots).

(2) Mr. Piper also reveals that his sighting of Roy Truly comes several minutes after the shooting sequence, so much for the immediate mad dash upstairs.

Again, a more likely scenario given the reveal of the wrongly accused actually being outside (not to mention that no one else can be accounted for standing in Prayer Man's position per all of the CE 1381 statements )

He slips back inside, taking up a position near the first-floor storage room amid his shock & disbelief about what just happened. He is sighted here by Mr. Campbell and his party returning inside the building. Given the first-floor storage room's close proximity to the first-floor elevator in the front of the building, he is "this man" who comes to the aid of Inspector Sawyer who enters the building at 12:34PM. WC counsel didn't seem interested in identifying Inspector Sawyer's, quote "this man", quickly steering the questioning elsewhere during Inspector Sawyer's testimony.

Later the officials realize they still have a problem when word gets back to them that a Ms. Judy McCully just happened to see Inspector Sawyer's entourage disembark from the elevator on the 4th floor (her statement was subsequently changed to being outside rather than upstairs to avoid the reality that she actually saw the wrongly accused). 

Upon returning downstairs after assisting Inspector Sawyer, the wrongly accused continues to be helpful: aiding Mr. Allman and subsequently Mr. MacNeil (Robert), giving them directions to where they may use a phone, then continues past Mr. MacNeil outside, where he spends 5-10 minutes with Mr. Shelley.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 10:47:08 PM
On the contrary, I take the wrongly accused at his word, essentially believing that he indeed was in the building approaching the front door to head outside at the precise time of the shooting sequence. As he came completely through the door to take up his Prayer Man position Mr. Weigman (Dave) followed by Mr. Darnell (Jimmy, RIP) traveling multiples spots behind the presidential limousine in camera cars 10 & 11 respectively capture him on film after the shooting sequence. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry Alan but once again this has the whiff of Magical Thinking. That is to say, something you are making up because you really want it to be true. But it does bring up an important point I'm unaware of which is how the Wiegman film is synchronised with the assassination. Let's have a look and see if your claim that Wiegman and Darnell " respectively capture him on film after the shooting sequence" holds up.
The obvious marker for the assassination is the shots which most TSBD witnesses claim to hear. Starting with Altgens 6, we see Billy Lovelady leaning out to get a better look at the Presidential limo but, more importantly, we see Carl Edward Jones looking off to the left. Altgens 6 can be synchronised approximately with z255-z260 in Zapruder:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5N6vLCqg/Carl-Edward-Jones-in-Altgens-6.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In the Wiegman Gif below we can see Lovelady moving down to the position we see him in Altgens but the important point is that Carl Jones is still looking to his right. It is safe to assume the Wiegman image with Lovelady in the lower position is taken just before Altgens. The first Wiegman image, with Lovelady in the higher position is taken approximately 4 seconds before the second. From this we can conclude that the Shadow Person is in position before the shot that hits JFK in the back and the head-shot thus blowing your claim out of the water:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJxChg5h/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The last tiny thread you are hanging on to is whether the Shadow Person is in position before the first shot. Even if this can be demonstrated to be the case (which I don't think it can) Oswald's own words, that he was in the building for the assassination, demonstrate he is not Prayer Man.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 11:34:30 PM
 At best, those of us watching the president reacting to his throat wound in that famous Altgens 6 photo only see the Vice-Presidential follow up car in the frame, with considerable distance between it and the other cars traveling behind it in the parade procession still not even in view yet...

... including the one Mr. Weigman travels in (further behind at least two others in the procession, the Dallas Mayor's car and the National Press Pool Car as well). 

Upon the president's movement to clutch his throat as seen in Altgen's 6, the coup de grâce comes immediately afterwards.  So much so that even Marrion Baker, who is travellng well ahead of both Mr. Weigman and Mr. Darnell  hadn't even reached the point to even park his motorcycle yet. That's more than enough time for the wrongly accused to slip out into autumn air upon a tragic scene unfolding around him. 

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 12:06:39 AM
Folks,

Am heading off here for now, so any posts from this point on directed towards me for a response, I'm not ignoring them as much as I'll have to double back here tomorrow at some point.

That said, to share an idea of how far away Marrion Baker and those travelling behind him and, of course, the presidential limousine ---->

Mr. DULLES - So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage?
Mr. BAKER - Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block.
Mr. DULLES - A half block?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is right.


Safe evening everyone. Stay healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 11:30:48 AM
Oswald agreed that he was inside the building at the time. If he was outside with his workmates wouldn't he be screaming from the rooftops that he had an rock solid alibi? But obviously he knew he had no alibi because at the time he was on the 6th floor at the snipers nest window shooting Kennedy.

@1:14

JohnM

 :D

Poor Mr Mytton, your only resort is to trot out your old long-refuted Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Chestnut!

Mr Oswald never said he was inside the building. He answered in the affirmative when asked if he was 'in' the building. Every time you continue to put the word 'inside' in Mr Oswald's mouth, we see your shameless dishonesty! Thumb1:

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!

That's where Mr Oswald said he was, and the reason he said that was where he was was that that was where he in fact was. And! The reason Captain Fritz and his crooked pals pretended Mr Oswald said he was somewhere other than where he actually said he was..... was that they wanted to frame him for the shooting. And you're still falling for the scam, and devoting yourself to making others fall for it too!

The Hosty note destroys you, Mr Mytton! it's why you tried to argue that Mr Oswald only said he went out to watch the rest of the parade------i.e. the bits that came after JFK! (I am not making this up, folks, it's what poor Mr Mytton actually said!)

(https://i.imgur.com/RrTedsl.jpg)

 :D

As for why Mr Oswald didn't scream his assassination-time location at the press, this too has been addressed-----------multiple times! But you, being a propagandist, pretend you never notice.

So! Once more for the benefit of He Who is Too Blind to See and Too Deaf to Hear:

Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps. Under pressure to pin the shooting on his suspect, and not one to let trivial questions of basic justice get in the way, all he has to do is tell Mr Oswald: 'Look son, we know you didn't fire the actual shots. But we have you tied to the rifle. And that's what we're charging you with.'

Anyhoo, Mr Mytton, we look forward to seeing you pop up again in a few months with the same old easily-disposable garbage!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 11:33:36 AM
My look into this case has taken me in a completely different direction than John Mytton but this is not the first time he's stepped into a thread with something devastating. Here he presents video evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

Oswald: I work in that building [the TSBD]
Reprter: Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

There are so many good arguments against the identification of Oswald as the Shadow Person but none are definitive. This is definitive.
However, too many people have spent too much time defending this nonsense and have now painted themselves into a corner. I look forward to how Magical Thinking copes with definitive video evidence of Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD during the assassination. A record of the words coming out of his own mouth.

This should be entertaining  8)

What should be entertaining, Mr O'Meara, is waiting for you to back up the claim that Mr Oswald places himself 'inside the TSBD during the assassination'.

I suggest you read my reply (in my previous post) to Mr Mytton's nonsense!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 11:42:19 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJxChg5h/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The last tiny thread you are hanging on to is whether the Shadow Person is in position before the first shot. Even if this can be demonstrated to be the case (which I don't think it can) Oswald's own words, that he was in the building for the assassination, demonstrate he is not Prayer Man.

Nope! None of these people on the steps and on the landing can be said to be inside the building. They can however be said to be in the building, because they are within its enclosed front entrance, which still belongs to the building. None of them has left the building by stepping down into the street.

Mr Oswald hears the reporter's question, 'Were you in the building at the time?', as an accusation, and his response makes clear what his focus is: how preposterous it is to hold against him the fact that he was at his place of work. Not fully understanding a) the true accusation that is being brought against him; b) the fact that he will be shot dead before getting a chance to clear his name, he does not think to go into semantics with the reporter. A pity, but there you have it. Thankfully, the discovery of the Hosty note settles the issue once and for all: Mr Oswald claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. parade". Good luck finding wiggle-room ambiguity in those words!

The Hosty note also destroys the lie that Mr Oswald confirmed a post-assassination encounter with a cop and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom just after the assassination. We now know that Mr Oswald claimed to have visited that lunchroom before the motorcade-------------a claim that would be vindicated by Ms Carolyn Arnold (who was not privy to the Hosty note, any more than the rest of the world was!). Thumb1:

Mr Oswald went out on the front steps to watch the motorcade. He is probably Prayer Man. If you still disagree, perhaps you might tell us who you think Prayer Man could be? Can you offer even one candidate name? That would be great, cos no one else has been able to... and that's after seven years of the most intense effort!

The only Magical Thinking going on here, Mr O'Meara, is coming from those who wish to explain away the truly devastating Hosty note!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 02, 2020, 12:24:03 PM
My last post about the synchronisation of the Wiegman film and the assassination was utter balderdash and rookie excitement. So I went away and did what I should have done in the first place and researched it properly. I'm sure it's been done before but I found I could synchronise the Bell, Wiegman and Zapruder films and it threw up some interesting results. The timings are approximate, I'm rounding things up to the nearest second and I'm not sure how reliable the films are in terms of their actual running times versus real time.
Starting with the Bell film. In this version I am using the moment the Presidential limo fully enters the shadow of the Triple Underpass as a marker. This is at 45 seconds in the film. When we roll the film on the camera pans to the right. We see Zapruder and Sitzman are already off the plinth. We then see Mrs Hester starting to get up and no sign of Mr Hester. At 55 seconds I pause the film just before it cuts away and on the right we can see the dark crouching figure of Wiegmen with his fedora on filming Mrs Hester (it is actually closer to 56 seconds so I use a time of 11 seconds from the moment the limo passes into the shadow of the Triple Underpass until the shot of Wiegman filming Mrs Hester)


Now to the Wiegman film. In this version the film starts at 8 seconds and as we let it roll we see the TSBD steps, Wiegman is out of the car and running towards the Hesters, he crouches down and starts filming them, Mr Hester gets up and hides behind one of the columns in the pergola. This is the same moment at 56 seconds in the Bell film. In the Wiegman film this is marked as 32 seconds meaning the total running time of the film is 24 seconds to this point.


Now to Zapruder. I mark the moment the limo passes into the shadow of the Triple Underpass as z471 (27 seconds on this version). We know from the Bell film that 11 seconds after this moment Wiegman is filming Mrs Hester. Knowing that the Wiegman film starts 24 seconds before this point we can work out when the Wiegman film starts in relation to the Zapruder film. Wiegman is filming Mrs Hester 24 seconds after the film starts. If we take 11 seconds off this it gives us the moment the limo has reached the shadow of the Triple Underpass (this is 13 seconds into the Wiegman film but is marked as 21 seconds because the film doesn't start until 8 seconds). It means that when we look at the moment the limo reaches the Triple Underpass in Zapruder we know that Wiegman starts filming 13 seconds before this point. This brings us to 14 seconds in the Zapruder film (z233-z251)


The upshot of all this is that Wiegman starts filming 2-3 seconds after JFK is shot in the back (approximately z223). He is filming before the head-shot which means he captures "Prayer Man" out on the TSBD steps before this moment in contrast to Oswald's own words that he is inside the building for the assassination.
I've always assumed that the head-shot was the third and final shot but something cropped up as I was looking into this that I will follow up on a different thread as it's not really appropriate for this one. Wiegman himself is adamant that as he got out of the car he heard the third shot. In the Wiegman film he is getting out of the car about 8 seconds after the start of the film. In the Zapruder film this is the moment Clint Hill is climbing onto the back of the limo as Jackie moves onto the trunk. If we take Wiegman at face value it indicates that the first shot is the one that hits JFK in the back, the second shot is the head-shot and it is the third shot that misses. Something I will be exploring elsewhere.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 01:11:31 PM
Mr O'Meara, a lot of folks have looked at this Altgens-Wiegman synchronisation question very closely. Mr Mark Tyler's outstanding 'Motorcade 63' animated reconstruction is well worth checking out!

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 02, 2020, 02:13:50 PM

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/a3/3c/b0a33cb677e047af32d0250ec6f00827.jpg)

Too bad that the other people who were on the steps all refer to being on the OUTSIDE.

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by


Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".

(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)

Try again!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 02, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfXZxnnq/hosty-note.jpg)

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.


Oswald was implying that he had no idea what was happening outside.

Btw under Ford's scenario even Oswald refers to being on the steps as being outside. OUCH that's gotta hurt!

Hahahahaha!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 02:32:12 PM
:D

Poor Mr Mytton, your only resort is to trot out your old long-refuted Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Chestnut!

Mr Oswald never said he was inside the building. He answered in the affirmative when asked if he was 'in' the building. Every time you continue to put the word 'inside' in Mr Oswald's mouth, we see your shameless dishonesty! Thumb1:

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!

That's where Mr Oswald said he was, and the reason he said that was where he was was that that was where he in fact was. And! The reason Captain Fritz and his crooked pals pretended Mr Oswald said he was somewhere other than where he actually said he was..... was that they wanted to frame him for the shooting. And you're still falling for the scam, and devoting yourself to making others fall for it too!

The Hosty note destroys you, Mr Mytton! it's why you tried to argue that Mr Oswald only said he went out to watch the rest of the parade------i.e. the bits that came after JFK! (I am not making this up, folks, it's what poor Mr Mytton actually said!)

(https://i.imgur.com/RrTedsl.jpg)

 :D

As for why Mr Oswald didn't scream his assassination-time location at the press, this too has been addressed-----------multiple times! But you, being a propagandist, pretend you never notice.

So! Once more for the benefit of He Who is Too Blind to See and Too Deaf to Hear:

Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps. Under pressure to pin the shooting on his suspect, and not one to let trivial questions of basic justice get in the way, all he has to do is tell Mr Oswald: 'Look son, we know you didn't fire the actual shots. But we have you tied to the rifle. And that's what we're charging you with.'

Anyhoo, Mr Mytton, we look forward to seeing you pop up again in a few months with the same old easily-disposable garbage!

 Thumb1:

CT Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald

Mr Oswald: I'm innocent
CT Judge: Okay, you can go
Mr Oswald: [SMIRK]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 03:13:25 PM
Mr O'Meara, a lot of folks have looked at this Altgens-Wiegman synchronisation question very closely. Mr Mark Tyler's outstanding 'Motorcade 63' animated reconstruction is well worth checking out!

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

Thumb1:

As astute as ever, Mr. Ford, no great surprise considering the credible source, who always seems to have an uncanny knack for sharing exemplary research. Appreciate the timely reference material within your shared link.

That said, it's also interesting how you honed right in on semantics. Again, no great surprise given that critical-thinkers like you aren't beholden to tunnel-vision. Your reference to semantics conjured up memories of my youth, where depending upon what region of the country my pappy was working in, the locals would make reference to , quote, " a soft drink, a soda, a pop and/or a tonic" when speaking of Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, RC Cola, Root Beer, Vernon Ginger-Ale, etc. So your point at semantics is a valid one. It wouldn't surprise if there are other items out there in our world that are also subject to a matter/manner of speaking depending upon the speaker.

Lastly, an excellent point at no one, and I mean no one has be able to credibly put anyone else in Prayer Man's specific position. They have nothing. That's very telling, especially more so given the revealing revelation in Mr. Hosty's notes. I'm open-minded enough to change my contention that Prayer Mn is in fact the wrongly accused IF someone produces a credible candidate to account for his position.

Any takers up to this challenge?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 06:36:16 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfXZxnnq/hosty-note.jpg)

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.


Oswald was implying that he had no idea what was happening outside.

Btw under Ford's scenario even Oswald refers to being on the steps as being outside. OUCH that's gotta hurt!

Hahahahaha!

JohnM

I guess when Ford is on the steps to his house, he's IN his house. Then when he actually unlocks the door and steps forward, he's INSIDE the house.  ::)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 06:43:25 PM
As astute as ever, Mr. Ford, no great surprise considering the credible source, who always seems to have an uncanny knack for sharing exemplary research. Appreciate the timely reference material within your shared link.

That said, it's also interesting how you honed right in on semantics. Again, no great surprise given that critical-thinkers like you aren't beholden to tunnel-vision. Your reference to semantics conjured up memories of my youth, where depending upon what region of the country my pappy was working in, the locals would make reference to , quote, " a soft drink, a soda, a pop and/or a tonic" when speaking of Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, RC Cola, Root Beer, Vernon Ginger-Ale, etc. So your point at semantics is a valid one. It wouldn't surprise if there are other items out there in our world that are also subject to a matter/manner of speaking depending upon the speaker.

Lastly, an excellent point at no one, and I mean no one has be able to credibly put anyone else in Prayer Man's specific position. They have nothing. That's very telling, especially more so given the revealing revelation in Mr. Hosty's notes. I'm open-minded enough to change my contention that Prayer Mn is in fact the wrongly accused IF someone produces a credible candidate to account for his position.

Any takers up to this challenge?

Stop posting to yourself and tell us the difference between being IN a building and being INSIDE a building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 07:02:30 PM
Question: Am I in my house, when I'm out on a screened in porch-patio attached to the overall structure? I would say so as it is a part of the overall structure, where as someone else may come to the conclusion no I'm not because I'm not actually inside my house. Again, as Mr. Ford so aptly pointed out it's simply a case of semantics.

That said, Mr. Chapman, Are you up to the task of producing a candidate to account for Prayer Man's specific position?

Those of us reading along understand why if you cannot do so. There's a reason for that. The wrongly accused is right where he said he was (within the structure of the building outside).



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 08:23:14 PM
Question: Am I in my house, when I'm out on a screened in porch-patio attached to the overall structure? I would say so as it is a part of the overall structure, where as someone else may come to the conclusion no I'm not because I'm not actually inside my house. Again, as Mr. Ford so aptly pointed out it's simply a case of semantics.

That said, Mr. Chapman, Are you up to the task of producing a candidate to account for Prayer Man's specific position?

Those of us reading along understand why if you cannot do so. There's a reason for that. The wrongly accused is right where he said he was (within the structure of the building outside).

Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

The TSBD steps were not enclosed.
Some people were outside on the steps, not inside the building.
Definitly on the premises, though.
Which includes the Cuckoo's Nest, of course ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 02, 2020, 08:27:00 PM
Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

The TSBD steps were not enclosed.
Some people were outside on the steps, not inside the building.

Definitly on the premises, though.
Which includes the Cuckoo's Nest, of course ;)
Was he in the lunchroom or inside the lunchroom?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 08:32:34 PM
Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

The TSBD steps were not enclosed.
Some people were outside on the steps, not inside the building.

Definitly on the premises, though.
Which includes the Cuckoo's Nest, of course ;)

Show/share with those of us reading along, Mr. Chapman, where the wrongly accused said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed). Caution: Not where a third-party wrote that he said it, but directly from the wrongly accused will suffice.

What next, the steps were detached from the entrance closure and were waaaay out in the street, Mr. Chapman?

You probably also believe that from his loftier ambition spot he still somehow managed to see two human beings (Mr. Jarman and Mr. Norman) reenter the building between 12:25-12:28PM from the rear while he was supposedly six stories up in the front of the building. Am I understanding you clearly, Mr. Chapman?

Once again, Are you up to the task of producing a credible candidate to account for Prayer Man's specific position?

Those of us reading along understand why if you cannot do so. There's a reason for that
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 08:46:44 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/a3/3c/b0a33cb677e047af32d0250ec6f00827.jpg)

Too bad that the other people who were on the steps all refer to being on the OUTSIDE.

As did Mr Oswald! "Then went outside to watch P. parade."  Thumb1:

Quote
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by


Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".

(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)

Try again!

JohnM

 :D :D :D

The fact that you have to work so hard to find such a paltry counter-argument shows just how worried you are, Mr Mytton!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfXZxnnq/hosty-note.jpg)

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.


Oswald was implying that he had no idea what was happening outside.

 :D

No, Mr Mytton, he was stating that he went outside to watch the motorcade. Which is what he did---------which is why Captain Fritz and his pals hid his statement from the world!

On your rather desperate reading, Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz: 'A cop came running into the room, stuck a gun in my belly and asked me if I worked there. Mr Truly told him I did and they went off running up the stairs. This happens to us employees most days around lunchtime, so I didn't think anything of it. Then I went downstairs, had lunch and went outside to watch the Presidential parade. Imagine my surprise when...'

Great theory you got there, Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:

Quote
Btw under Ford's scenario even Oswald refers to being on the steps as being outside. OUCH that's gotta hurt!

What's gotta hurt, Mr Mytton, is that you can't for the life of you find a way to rebut the simple fact that there is only one place that can be said to be both 'in the building' and 'outside': the front entranceway!

Of course, had the reporter asked Mr Oswald, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', it's likely Mr Oswald would have answered a little more expansively along the lines, 'Well, sir, I was on the front steps of the building.' A pity that's not how it played out? Sure. But now----------thanks to the Hosty draft report that has broken your heart----------we know exactly where Mr Oswald claimed to have been. So... you lose------again!   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 09:02:33 PM
CT Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald

Mr Oswald: I'm innocent
CT Judge: Okay, you can go
Mr Oswald: [SMIRK]

Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.

WC counsel: Where did Oswald say he was when the President passed the building?
Captain Fritz: He said he was inside.

Good enough for Mr Chapman!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 09:07:43 PM
Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.

WC counsel: Where did Oswald say he was when the President passed the building?
Captain Fritz: He said he was inside.

Good enough for Mr Chapman!  :D

Oh noooo! Say it ain't so, Captain Fritz...amazing what some people will do & say for thirty pieces of silver. Thank goodness for all the honest to goodness Frank Serpicos who couldn't be bought.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 09:13:21 PM
Oh noooo! Say it ain't so, Captain Fritz...amazing what some people will do & say for thirty pieces of silver. Thank goodness for all the honest to goodness Frank Serpicos who couldn't be bought.

I can't help wondering did Agent Hosty deliberately leave his draft report in his notes, secure in the knowledge that it would meet the daylight of day sooner or later... It is striking how he never backed up the claim that Mr Oswald talked about any post-assassination second-floor lunchroom encounter with a cop and Mr Truly.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 09:17:58 PM
Was he in the lunchroom or inside the lunchroom?

Was he in the lunchroom or inside the lunchroom?

In or inside

Where was Oswald at 12:30-ish that afternoon?
1) In the lunchroom/inside the lunchroom
2) In the sniper's nest/inside the sniper's nest

Used in a sentence

1) Oswald was in the sniper's nest at 12:30-ish and in a lunchroom some 75-90 seconds later
2) Oswald was inside the sniper's nest at 12:30-ish and inside a lunchroom some 75-90 seconds later

Was it an inside job?
Was Oswald 'in with the in-crowd?'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 10:02:14 PM
I can't help wondering did Agent Hosty deliberately leave his draft report in his notes, secure in the knowledge that it would meet the daylight of day sooner or later... It is striking how he never backed up the claim that Mr Oswald talked about any post-assassination second-floor lunchroom encounter with a cop and Mr Truly.

 Thumb1:

Men of honour have a way of appeasing the prevalent winds of their day while simultaneously leaving discreet clues to challenge treason when they witness it. Courage & integrity like theirs doesn't grow on trees.

Sdebar: Should you venture back this way Mr. Ford, no need to respond to this sidebar addendum, but for clarification sake and, of course, in fairness to you & those reading along just wanted you to be aware that my initial interest into the JFK assassination came about in May, 2014. In those days, I was able to register a forum membership in my name without the use of my middle initial. Though I was a young puppy then, I dared to jump over in the deep end of the pool so to speak. My avatar then featured Charlton Heston upon a horse drawn chariot right out of the movie Ben Hur. In those days, given my then puppy status I use to make some pretty wild statements like, quote, "Mr. Oswald couldn't even beat Barney Fife in an armed wrestling match let alone kill somebody". Of course, to their credit, the savvy veterans, especially the LNs who I respect nevertheless, would reign me in and place me on a tight leash so to speak, resulting in more than a few PM's in my box "setting me straight". The late Gary Mack (RIP) would remind me often how wrong I was, how clueless I was, etc, may he rest in peace anyway.

I ended up leaving this forum in early January, 2015 to write a book on a non-related subject. Long story short, several years later when I attempted to rejoin here, Mr. Ford, you had already signed on, thus I resorted to using my middle initial. If at any time you feel a tinge of discomfort with the similarities in our names posting on here, just PM me and I'll respectfully leave once again. At this point, I pretty much think everyone here knows my position anyway & where I stand on the innocence of the framed party. Whatever you decide no harm, no foul, I have complete trust in the direction your exemplary research is headed.

Signing off here for now. Best wishes to all to remain safe, well and healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing. Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Remember, Mr. Ford, just PM me and I'll take the necessary action moving forward, remaining here in spite of the similarities in our names or leave once again. Stay sharp, Cheers M8.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.

WC counsel: Where did Oswald say he was when the President passed the building?
Captain Fritz: He said he was inside.

Good enough for Mr Chapman!  :D

'Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.'

> Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside [SMIRK].

There, fixed it for ya.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 02, 2020, 11:44:53 PM
It's a simple matter of semantics, Oswald was well read and under the circumstances chose his words carefully.

Then I went outside to watch the parade. (Oswald here is using future tense to imply that he had no idea what was happening outside)

Or would Oswald use past tense to describe an action that he completed.

Then I went outside and watched the parade. (Oswald knew he couldn't say this because nobody could possibly see Oswald because he was in the building like he agreed to.

And again while answering the reporter we have Oswald who had no alibi not elaborating his precise location.

Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in that building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir.


Or if indeed Oswald was on the steps wouldn't Oswald use the same logical language "of being outside" that the other eyewitnesses who were on the steps used and thus would give Oswald a rock solid alibi?

Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in that building at the time?
Oswald: No, I was outside on the steps.


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 12:00:44 AM
I guess when Ford is on the steps to his house, he's IN his house. Then when he actually unlocks the door and steps forward, he's INSIDE the house.  ::)

This is the dimension of imagination, Welcome to the Twilight Zone!


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 12:50:36 AM
This is the dimension of imagination, Welcome to the Twilight Zone!


JohnM

IOW:


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:52:19 AM
It's a simple matter of semantics, Oswald was well read and under the circumstances chose his words carefully.

Then I went outside to watch the parade. (Oswald here is using future tense to imply that he had no idea what was happening outside)

Or would Oswald use past tense to describe an action that he completed.

Then I went outside and watched the parade. (Oswald knew he couldn't say this because nobody could possibly see Oswald because he was in the building like he agreed to.

 :D

Thank you so much, Mr Mytton, for doubling down on the hilariously silly claim you are making as to what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz:

'A cop came running into the room, stuck a gun in my belly and asked me if I worked there. Mr Truly told him I did and they went off running up the stairs. This happens to us employees most days around lunchtime, so I didn't think anything of it. Then I went downstairs, had lunch and went outside to watch the Presidential parade. Imagine my surprise when...'

You really are a riot!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:53:15 AM
Men of honour have a way of appeasing the prevalent winds of their day while simultaneously leaving discreet clues to challenge treason when they witness it. Courage & integrity like theirs doesn't grow on trees.

Sdebar: Should you venture back this way Mr. Ford, no need to respond to this sidebar addendum, but for clarification sake and, of course, in fairness to you & those reading along just wanted you to be aware that my initial interest into the JFK assassination came about in May, 2014. In those days, I was able to register a forum membership in my name without the use of my middle initial. Though I was a young puppy then, I dared to jump over in the deep end of the pool so to speak. My avatar then featured Charlton Heston upon a horse drawn chariot right out of the movie Ben Hur. In those days, given my then puppy status I use to make some pretty wild statements like, quote, "Mr. Oswald couldn't even beat Barney Fife in an armed wrestling match let alone kill somebody". Of course, to their credit, the savvy veterans, especially the LNs who I respect nevertheless, would reign me in and place me on a tight leash so to speak, resulting in more than a few PM's in my box "setting me straight". The late Gary Mack (RIP) would remind me often how wrong I was, how clueless I was, etc, may he rest in peace anyway.

I ended up leaving this forum in early January, 2015 to write a book on a non-related subject. Long story short, several years later when I attempted to rejoin here, Mr. Ford, you had already signed on, thus I resorted to using my middle initial. If at any time you feel a tinge of discomfort with the similarities in our names posting on here, just PM me and I'll respectfully leave once again. At this point, I pretty much think everyone here knows my position anyway & where I stand on the innocence of the framed party. Whatever you decide no harm, no foul, I have complete trust in the direction your exemplary research is headed.

Signing off here for now. Best wishes to all to remain safe, well and healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing. Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Remember, Mr. Ford, just PM me and I'll take the necessary action moving forward, remaining here in spite of the similarities in our names or leave once again. Stay sharp, Cheers M8.

Under NO circumstances should you even consider leaving, my friend!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 12:58:46 AM
IOW:


 Thumb1:

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright, yeah



JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 05:35:21 AM
Men of honour have a way of appeasing the prevalent winds of their day while simultaneously leaving discreet clues to challenge treason when they witness it. Courage & integrity like theirs doesn't grow on trees.

Sdebar: Should you venture back this way Mr. Ford, no need to respond to this sidebar addendum, but for clarification sake and, of course, in fairness to you & those reading along just wanted you to be aware that my initial interest into the JFK assassination came about in May, 2014. In those days, I was able to register a forum membership in my name without the use of my middle initial. Though I was a young puppy then, I dared to jump over in the deep end of the pool so to speak. My avatar then featured Charlton Heston upon a horse drawn chariot right out of the movie Ben Hur. In those days, given my then puppy status I use to make some pretty wild statements like, quote, "Mr. Oswald couldn't even beat Barney Fife in an armed wrestling match let alone kill somebody". Of course, to their credit, the savvy veterans, especially the LNs who I respect nevertheless, would reign me in and place me on a tight leash so to speak, resulting in more than a few PM's in my box "setting me straight". The late Gary Mack (RIP) would remind me often how wrong I was, how clueless I was, etc, may he rest in peace anyway.

I ended up leaving this forum in early January, 2015 to write a book on a non-related subject. Long story short, several years later when I attempted to rejoin here, Mr. Ford, you had already signed on, thus I resorted to using my middle initial. If at any time you feel a tinge of discomfort with the similarities in our names posting on here, just PM me and I'll respectfully leave once again. At this point, I pretty much think everyone here knows my position anyway & where I stand on the innocence of the framed party. Whatever you decide no harm, no foul, I have complete trust in the direction your exemplary research is headed.

Signing off here for now. Best wishes to all to remain safe, well and healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing. Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Remember, Mr. Ford, just PM me and I'll take the necessary action moving forward, remaining here in spite of the similarities in our names or leave once again. Stay sharp, Cheers M8.

'my initial interest into the JFK assassination'
> my initial interest IN the JFK assassination

There. Fixed it for ya. And proved you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And get another clue:
When one is behind the TSBD glass doors, one is indoors
When one is outside the glass doors, one is outdoors
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 05:53:27 AM
:D

Poor Mr Mytton, your only resort is to trot out your old long-refuted Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Chestnut!

Mr Oswald never said he was inside the building. He answered in the affirmative when asked if he was 'in' the building. Every time you continue to put the word 'inside' in Mr Oswald's mouth, we see your shameless dishonesty! Thumb1:

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!

That's where Mr Oswald said he was, and the reason he said that was where he was was that that was where he in fact was. And! The reason Captain Fritz and his crooked pals pretended Mr Oswald said he was somewhere other than where he actually said he was..... was that they wanted to frame him for the shooting. And you're still falling for the scam, and devoting yourself to making others fall for it too!

The Hosty note destroys you, Mr Mytton! it's why you tried to argue that Mr Oswald only said he went out to watch the rest of the parade------i.e. the bits that came after JFK! (I am not making this up, folks, it's what poor Mr Mytton actually said!)

(https://i.imgur.com/RrTedsl.jpg)

 :D

As for why Mr Oswald didn't scream his assassination-time location at the press, this too has been addressed-----------multiple times! But you, being a propagandist, pretend you never notice.

So! Once more for the benefit of He Who is Too Blind to See and Too Deaf to Hear:

Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps. Under pressure to pin the shooting on his suspect, and not one to let trivial questions of basic justice get in the way, all he has to do is tell Mr Oswald: 'Look son, we know you didn't fire the actual shots. But we have you tied to the rifle. And that's what we're charging you with.'

Anyhoo, Mr Mytton, we look forward to seeing you pop up again in a few months with the same old easily-disposable garbage!

 Thumb1:

'Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps'
> Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald told him he was on the front steps

There. Fixed it for ya.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 06:03:03 AM
Thumb1:

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright, yeah



JohnM

I wonder if either of these 'Model T' Fords are related to Gerald Ford?
You know, the one who kept falling down the stairs.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2020, 07:54:51 AM
:D

No, Mr Mytton, he was stating that he went outside to watch the motorcade. Which is what he did---------which is why Captain Fritz and his pals hid his statement from the world!

On your rather desperate reading, Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz: 'A cop came running into the room, stuck a gun in my belly and asked me if I worked there. Mr Truly told him I did and they went off running up the stairs. This happens to us employees most days around lunchtime, so I didn't think anything of it. Then I went downstairs, had lunch and went outside to watch the Presidential parade. Imagine my surprise when...'

Great theory you got there, Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:

What's gotta hurt, Mr Mytton, is that you can't for the life of you find a way to rebut the simple fact that there is only one place that can be said to be both 'in the building' and 'outside': the front entranceway!

Of course, had the reporter asked Mr Oswald, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', it's likely Mr Oswald would have answered a little more expansively along the lines, 'Well, sir, I was on the front steps of the building.' A pity that's not how it played out? Sure. But now----------thanks to the Hosty draft report that has broken your heart----------we know exactly where Mr Oswald claimed to have been. So... you lose------again!   Thumb1:

Oswwald states he was "upstairs" and then encounters Baker and Trully as he descends to the 2nd floor.

There is a huge problem with Oswald's statements. Actually he admits he was upstairs during the assassination. Not only that but the only person in the entire TSBD oblivious to the sound of gunfire. A Marine who doesn't know the sound of gunfire.

Oswald can't be both outside on the first floor and then upstairs returning to the 2nd floor when the commotion starts. Either way his statements see to revolve around the 2nd floor. On one story is he gets a soda on the second floor and then goes downstairs to eat lunch and he then goes outside to watch the parade. In another story he is upstairs unaware of the assassination and encountering Baker and Truly on the 2nd floor as he is coming down.

LHO:   "... After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . ."

Oswald also states that he was outside:

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.

Apparently LHO could not tell the same story twice. He might have not been sure if the secretaries on the 4th floor had actually seen him as he went down the stairs.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 08:12:33 AM
'my initial interest into the JFK assassination'
> my initial interest IN the JFK assassination

There. Fixed it for ya. And proved you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And get another clue:
When one is behind the TSBD glass doors, one is indoors
When one is outside the glass doors, one is outdoors

you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And the thought never crossed your mind that Oswald may have had the same struggle?

You are very good at destroying your own argument, aren't you?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And the thought never crossed your mind that Oswald may have had the same struggle?

You are very good at destroying your own argument, aren't you?
There is no struggle.
Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out' (I really can't believe I'm having to do this). Nobody is confused as to whether they are in or out.
The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination and the Prayer Man crew cannot accept that so they come up with this "is it 'in' or 'inside' insanity (or is that insideanity). That's fair enough, people have invested a lot of time and effort into believing this, "years of extensive research" I heard somewhere. I know hardly anything about this particular aspect of things as it never crossed my mind as a possibility for a number of reasons so I'd like to ask a couple of pretty straight-forward questions to those 'superfans' of this particular model of events:
1) What is the evidence Prayer Man is a man?
2) How many people are stood on the steps at the time of the assassination?
Two simple questions to start my education regarding the world of Prayer Man.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 10:24:23 AM
There is no struggle.
Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out' (I really can't believe I'm having to do this). Nobody is confused as to whether they are in or out.
The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination and the Prayer Man crew cannot accept that so they come up with this "is it 'in' or 'inside' insanity (or is that insideanity). That's fair enough, people have invested a lot of time and effort into believing this, "years of extensive research" I heard somewhere. I know hardly anything about this particular aspect of things as it never crossed my mind as a possibility for a number of reasons so I'd like to ask a couple of pretty straight-forward questions to those 'superfans' of this particular model of events:
1) What is the evidence Prayer Man is a man?
2) How many people are stood on the steps at the time of the assassination?
Two simple questions to start my education regarding the world of Prayer Man.

Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out'

You get no debate from me. The problem that you are ignoring is that people don't always express themselves 100% correctly and completely. You are reading way too much into a fleeting comment made in a moment of chaos.

The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination


Really? I would like to see that actual video, because it isn't in the clips that were posted earlier.

In one of the clips Oswald says "I work in that building" and then replies to a reporter asking "Were you in the building at the time" by saying "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir".

To construe from this exchange that Oswald confirmed he was in the building at the time of the assassination is reaching too far

And before you go there; no I am not a member of the prayer-man crew. For me the entire prayer-man discussion ends with the conclusion that the blurred pictures show a shape of what seems to be a person but as the pictures are too poor in quality it can not be determined who that person is.

This entire discussion about a blurred image in a poor quality picture and a personal interpretation of a few words uttered by Oswald seems somewhat superfluous to me as neither matter will likely ever be resolved.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:35:31 PM
'Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps'
> Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald told him he was on the front steps

There. Fixed it for ya.

So we agree that Mr Oswald did indeed tell Captain Fritz he was on the front steps when JFK passed the building. Excellent!  Thumb1:

Therefore we also agree that your hero Captain Fritz and his pals lied about this! Excellenter!  Thumb1: Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:37:46 PM
Oswwald states he was "upstairs" and then encounters Baker and Trully as he descends to the 2nd floor.

Where are you getting this nonsense claim from, Mr Nessan? Source please!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:44:13 PM
There is no struggle.
Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out' (I really can't believe I'm having to do this). Nobody is confused as to whether they are in or out.

And Mr Oswald was not confused either----------that's why he told Captain Fritz that he went outside to watch P. parade. If the reporter had asked him, 'Where were you when the shooting happened?', he would have said 'Out on the front steps' or 'Front entrance of the building'. If the reporter had asked him, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', he would have said, 'Well, sir, I was on the building's front steps.'

Your explanation for the Hosty draft report seems to be that Agent Hosty was on hallucinogens at the time of Mr Oswald's first interrogation. Or that a trained FBI agent would completely misunderstand the suspect's answer to the single most crucial question of the case. Dream on!

Give us a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Go on, it should be easy!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:45:32 PM
Thumb1:

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright, yeah



JohnM

And Mr Mytton folds again. Happens every time!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 01:42:24 PM
And Mr Mytton folds again. Happens every time!  :D

Besides the other Alan Ford, LOL!, you have had absolutely no support whatsoever, so carry on champ.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 02:18:03 PM
Besides the other Alan Ford, LOL!, you have had absolutely no support whatsoever, so carry on champ.

JohnM

you have had absolutely no support whatsoever

What support have you had, "John"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 03:00:15 PM
you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And the thought never crossed your mind that Oswald may have had the same struggle?

You are very good at destroying your own argument, aren't you?

Huh?

Tell us what I'm arguing about and with whom. Go ahead..
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2020, 03:02:09 PM
Where are you getting this nonsense claim from, Mr Nessan? Source please!  Thumb1:

The problem with lying is remembering the other lies. Surprising he would place himself above the 2nd floor.

Never even heard the shooting. The rifle would have been right by his ear, you would think he would have heard it.


https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963   Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office

          "After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. [Oswald was the only member in New Orleans.] . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. [Ruth Paine later stated she had marked Lee's map.] . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 05:23:35 PM
So we agree that Mr Oswald did indeed tell Captain Fritz he was on the front steps when JFK passed the building. Excellent!  Thumb1:

Therefore we also agree that your hero Captain Fritz and his pals lied about this! Excellenter!  Thumb1: Thumb1:

Nope. Oswald told Fritz he went outside to watch the parade. I used your translation verbatim. And Fritz did not 'know' whether of not Oswald was on the steps, or even had gone outside to watch the parade. He merely wrote down what Oswald said. And I don't see any stone tablets attesting to Oswald's veracity.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 03, 2020, 07:19:46 PM
Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

Who cares what you'd say?  Once you resort to "hero" rhetoric, you've already lost.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 03, 2020, 07:26:27 PM
https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

Uh, yeah.  You realize those are all made-up quotes, right?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 07:54:45 PM

The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination


Really? I would like to see that actual video, because it isn't in the clips that were posted earlier.

In one of the clips Oswald says "I work in that building" and then replies to a reporter asking "Were you in the building at the time" by saying "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir".

To construe from this exchange that Oswald confirmed he was in the building at the time of the assassination is reaching too far


I agree that people aren't always 100% correct in what they say but I disagree that i'm reaching too far interpreting Oswald's words as referring to the time of the assassination. The exchange in the video clip goes like this:

Reporter - Did you kill the President?
Oswald - No sir, I didn't. People keep asking me about that.
Reporter - Did you shoot the President?
Oswald - I work in that building
Reporter - Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald - Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

The key phrase is 'at the time'. At what time? You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed. His previous questions make it abundantly clear he is asking whether Oswald was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed (assassinated). Oswald understands the question and what is meant by it and he answers in the affirmative twice ('Naturally' and yes sir')
I'd say that any other interpretation of this exchange was reaching too far.
Oswald is confirming he was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed.
Do you have an alternative interpretation?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 07:57:36 PM
And Mr Oswald was not confused either----------that's why he told Captain Fritz that he went outside to watch P. parade. If the reporter had asked him, 'Where were you when the shooting happened?', he would have said 'Out on the front steps' or 'Front entrance of the building'. If the reporter had asked him, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', he would have said, 'Well, sir, I was on the building's front steps.'

Your explanation for the Hosty draft report seems to be that Agent Hosty was on hallucinogens at the time of Mr Oswald's first interrogation. Or that a trained FBI agent would completely misunderstand the suspect's answer to the single most crucial question of the case. Dream on!

Give us a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Go on, it should be easy!  Thumb1:
What is the evidence that Prayer Man is a man?
How many people on the steps at the time of the shooting?

You must surely know the answer to the second question as so much research has been done specifically about this (I assume)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 08:18:46 PM
I agree that people aren't always 100% correct in what they say but I disagree that i'm reaching too far interpreting Oswald's words as referring to the time of the assassination. The exchange in the video clip goes like this:

Reporter - Did you kill the President?
Oswald - No sir, I didn't. People keep asking me about that.
Reporter - Did you shoot the President?
Oswald - I work in that building
Reporter - Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald - Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

The key phrase is 'at the time'. At what time? You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed. His previous questions make it abundantly clear he is asking whether Oswald was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed (assassinated). Oswald understands the question and what is meant by it and he answers in the affirmative twice ('Naturally' and yes sir')
I'd say that any other interpretation of this exchange was reaching too far.
Oswald is confirming he was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed.
Do you have an alternative interpretation?

You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed.

Yes, I do. "At the time" can just as easily be interpeted as "where you there when the President was shot". Oswald had already said he worked in the building so his subsequent reply relates to that. If you say you work in a building and I ask you if you were there when the President was shot, you would also say something like "Of course, as I work there, I was there" or as Oswald answered; "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir"

To narrow it down to only one explanation when others are also possible is reaching too far.... even more so when this matter can not be resolved beyond speculation and opinion.

I have spent a great deal of my profesional life obtaining information from people and you wouldn't believe just how difficult it sometimes is for people to say exactly what they mean or to keep their story straight or to recall all the details at once.

This was a very short conversation and Oswald had hardly any time to consider the possible ramifications of his answer or even provide a more detailed answer.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on August 03, 2020, 08:37:39 PM
I agree that people aren't always 100% correct in what they say but I disagree that i'm reaching too far interpreting Oswald's words as referring to the time of the assassination. The exchange in the video clip goes like this:

Reporter - Did you kill the President?
Oswald - No sir, I didn't. People keep asking me about that.
Reporter - Did you shoot the President?
Oswald - I work in that building
Reporter - Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald - Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

The key phrase is 'at the time'. At what time? You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed. His previous questions make it abundantly clear he is asking whether Oswald was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed (assassinated). Oswald understands the question and what is meant by it and he answers in the affirmative twice ('Naturally' and yes sir')
I'd say that any other interpretation of this exchange was reaching too far.
Oswald is confirming he was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed.
Do you have an alternative interpretation?
Mr O'meara:
Oswald is being peppered with questions simultaneously by the large crowd of reporters, which may explain the odd responses.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 08:40:27 PM
You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed.

Yes, I do. "At the time" can just as easily be interpeted as "where you there when the President was shot". Oswald had already said he worked in the building so his subsequent reply relates to that. If you say you work in a building and I ask you if you were there when the President was shot, you would also say something like "Of course, as I work there, I was there" or as Oswald answered; "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir"

To narrow it down to only one explanation when others are also possible is reaching too far.... even more so when this matter can not be resolved beyond speculation and opinion.

I have spent a great deal of my profesional life obtaining information from people and you wouldn't believe just how difficult it sometimes is for people to say exactly what they mean or to keep their story straight or to recall all the details at once.

This was a very short conversation and Oswald had hardly any time to consider the possible ramifications of his answer or even provide a more detailed answer.
So this is your alternative explanation!
"At the time" can easily be interpreted as "Around the time"
"Specific" can easily be interpreted as "vague"
Brilliant stuff.
You agree at least that 'the time' being referred to is the assassination, you just think that "At the time of the assassination" is open to interpretation.
I agree. Any phrase can be interpreted any way you want , from common sense to utter nonsense. I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 08:46:45 PM
Mr O'meara:
Oswald is being peppered with questions simultaneously by the large crowd of reporters, which may explain the odd responses.

"Were you in the building at the time?"

"Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

What's odd about this?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 09:34:29 PM
So this is your alternative explanation!
"At the time" can easily be interpreted as "Around the time"
"Specific" can easily be interpreted as "vague"
Brilliant stuff.
You agree at least that 'the time' being referred to is the assassination, you just think that "At the time of the assassination" is open to interpretation.
I agree. Any phrase can be interpreted any way you want , from common sense to utter nonsense. I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.

So this is your alternative explanation!

No... I gave you no alternative explanation. I merely pointed out that your explanation was flawed.

I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.

I agree that that's what the reporter likely intended, but that isn't the issue... It's how Oswald understood the question.

As Oswald had already denied killing Kennedy, one can argue that he doesn't even know when exactly the President was killed and where exactly he was, so he goes with; "Yes I work in the building, so I was there"....

It's easy enough to understand. One of the biggest problems is that people place way too much value on the word choice of a witness, be it in testimony, in affidavit or in interviews.

There is a reason why lawyers always tell their clients (even the innocent ones) not to say anything to the police. The reason is, that once a statement is taken down it starts a life of it's own and very often what is said will be used against you later simply because you didn't say it completely or 100% accurate. In many case, when the police take a statement, you tell an officer what happened, that officer takes from that what he thinks he needs for a statement of possibly one or two A4 sheets, which he then puts in front of you to sign. Once you've signed it, you're stuck with it.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 10:03:02 PM
So this is your alternative explanation!

No... I gave you no alternative explanation. I merely pointed out that your explanation was flawed.

I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.

I agree that that's what the reporter likely intended, but that isn't the issue... It's how Oswald understood the question.

As Oswald had already denied killing Kennedy, one can argue that he doesn't even know when exactly the President was killed and where exactly he was, so he goes with; "Yes I work in the building, so I was there"....

It's easy enough to understand. One of the biggest problems is that people place way too much value on the word choice of a witness, be it in testimony, in affidavit or in interviews.

There is a reason why lawyers always tell their clients (even the innocent ones) not to say anything to the police. The reason is, that once a statement is taken down it starts a life on it's own and very often what is said will be used against you later simply because you didn't say it completely or 100% accurate. In many case, when the police take a statement, you tell an officer what happened, that officer takes from that what he thinks he needs for a statement of possibly one or two A4 sheets, which he then puts in front of you to sign. Once you've signed it, you're stuck with it.
But isn't it reasonable to assume that by confirming he was in the building when the assassination occurred he knew exactly when it had occurred! And knew he was in the building when it happened.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
The problem with lying is remembering the other lies. Surprising he would place himself above the 2nd floor.

Never even heard the shooting. The rifle would have been right by his ear, you would think he would have heard it.


https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963   Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office

          "After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. [Oswald was the only member in New Orleans.] . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. [Ruth Paine later stated she had marked Lee's map.] . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit."

 :D

That's not an actual source, Mr Nessan---------do your homework before spouting nonsense claims!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:24:55 PM
Nope. Oswald told Fritz he went outside to watch the parade.

Yes, and Captain Fritz pretended he hadn't said anything of the sort.

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr Chapman?  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:32:37 PM
What is the evidence that Prayer Man is a man?

Start with what looks exceedingly like a receding hairline. How many women have one of those?

Quote
How many people on the steps at the time of the shooting?

You must surely know the answer to the second question as so much research has been done specifically about this (I assume)

1. Mr Frazier
2. Mr Shelley
3. Mr Lovelady
4. Ms Stanton
5. Ms Sanders
6. Ms Reese
7. Ms McCully
8. Mr Molina
9. Mr Williams
10. Ms Davis
11. Mr Lewis (? probably inside the front door)
12. Ms Dean
13. Mr Oswald

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:41:54 PM
Mr O'meara:
Oswald is being peppered with questions simultaneously by the large crowd of reporters, which may explain the odd responses.

This! Mr Oswald is rather snippily confirming that no, he was not anywhere other than at the Texas School Book Depository, his goddam place of work, at the time. The Hosty draft report tells us what his more detailed and expansive answer would have been if he had been asked, 'Where exactly were you when the President was shot?' And had the reporter asked, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', he would of course have given a more specific answer too-------and that exchange would probably never have been broadcast on TV again either.

Oh, how dearly Team Keep LHO Away from that Front Entrance must wish the question Mr Oswald says yes to had contained the word 'inside'!  :D

The efforts to date of Team Keep LHO Away From that Front Entrance to explain away the clear information revealed in the Hosty draft report have been mirth-inducingly pathetic!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 11:19:55 PM
you have had absolutely no support whatsoever

What support have you had, "John"?

My argument with Ford where I said the steps are outside and the other side of the door is inside, was supported by you. Oops!

Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out'

You get no debate from me.


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 04, 2020, 05:06:49 AM
My argument with Ford where I said the steps are outside and the other side of the door is inside, was supported by you. Oops!

JohnM

Are you so desperate that you need to misrepresent what I said?

My unwillingness to debate an issue doesn't mean that you are correct.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 04, 2020, 05:11:13 AM
But isn't it reasonable to assume that by confirming he was in the building when the assassination occurred he knew exactly when it had occurred! And knew he was in the building when it happened.

An assumption is usually made with bias. With that in mind, an assumption is never really reasonable.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 04, 2020, 05:29:15 AM
Are you so desperate that you need to misrepresent what I said?

My unwillingness to debate an issue doesn't mean that you are correct.

 :D

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 04, 2020, 05:30:15 AM
Who cares what you'd say?  Once you resort to "hero" rhetoric, you've already lost.

You care what I say.
Otherwise you wouldn't respond to what I say.
And what did I lose, exactly?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 04, 2020, 04:38:24 PM
:D

That's not an actual source, Mr Nessan---------do your homework before spouting nonsense claims!

No I don't think so and neither does Insp. Holmes, LHO places himself above the 2nd floor during the shooting and comes down where he encounters Trully and Baker, Once again a Marine seems to have no knowledge of shots being fired. Seriously, "commotion?" Oswald can't seem to coordinate his own lies. LHO attempts to place the encounter with Baker and Trully on a different floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 04, 2020, 04:50:43 PM
Wait, how does going downstairs to the front door place him above the second floor?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2020, 09:31:25 PM
No I don't think so {~snip snip!~}

Mr Nessan, I'll take this as your way of admitting you goofed up big-time!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2020, 09:42:10 PM
The problem with lying is that there's always a danger you'll trip yourself up in an unguarded moment.........

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement (...)


Oh dear, Captain Fritz... And you've done so well up to now keeping a lid on the fact that Mr Oswald told you he "went outside to watch the P. parade"!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 04, 2020, 09:45:30 PM
Start with what looks exceedingly like a receding hairline. How many women have one of those?

1. Mr Frazier
2. Mr Shelley
3. Mr Lovelady
4. Ms Stanton
5. Ms Sanders
6. Ms Reese
7. Ms McCully
8. Mr Molina
9. Mr Williams
10. Ms Davis
11. Mr Lewis (? probably inside the front door)
12. Ms Dean
13. Mr Oswald

 Thumb1:

Oswald combed his hair over to the left exposing his receding hair on the right. You're saying the Shadow Person is receding on the left.
Oh dear, yet another nail in Prayer Man's coffin  Thumb1:

Don't forget Carl Edward Jones
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2020, 11:54:03 PM
Oswald combed his hair over to the left exposing his receding hair on the right. You're saying the Shadow Person is receding on the left.
Oh dear, yet another nail in Prayer Man's coffin  Thumb1:

Weak, Mr O'Meara! Mr Oswald's hair receded on both sides. If your argument now rests on the assumption that Mr Oswald stood in front of a mirror with a comb just before going outside to watch the P. parade, then you've got nothing.

Quote
Don't forget Carl Edward Jones

Yes indeed, thank you-------Mr Jones comes in at #14, just after Mr Oswald!

Now! You asked for the list. What are you going to do with it?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 04, 2020, 11:56:40 PM
Weak, Mr O'Meara! Mr Oswald's hair receded on both sides. If your argument now rests on the assumption that Mr Oswald stood in front of a mirror with a comb just before going outside to watch the P. parade, then you've got nothing.

Yes indeed, thank you-------Mr Jones comes in at #14, just after Mr Oswald!

Now! You asked for the list. What are you going to do with it?

 Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL0V2qwM/Oswald-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
D'oh  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 12:08:03 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL0V2qwM/Oswald-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
D'oh  8)

I can save you some time and trouble, Mr O'Meara, by telling you where this line of inquiry will lead:

Either! Prayer Man is Mr Oswald, a quiet nondescript employee amongst a bunch of other employees, who told Captain Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. parade" and naturally enought went unnoticed by most of his fellow employees in the short time he was out there (though not unnoticed by Officer Baker, Mr Truly and Mr Lovelady)

Or! Prayer Man is a non-employee of the Depository alone amongst a bunch of employees, who went weirdly unnoticed by every single one of them.

Seems to me option 'Or' is a much bigger stretch than option 'Either'! 

Alternatively----------can you find another, hitherto unmentioned Depository employee to put out on those steps in the Prayer Man spot?

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 05, 2020, 12:25:46 AM
I can save you some time and trouble, Mr O'Meara, by telling you where this line of inquiry will lead:

Either! Prayer Man is Mr Oswald, a quiet nondescript employee amongst a bunch of other employees, who told Captain Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. parade" and naturally enought went unnoticed by most of his fellow employees in the short time he was out there (though not unnoticed by Officer Baker, Mr Truly and Mr Lovelady)

Or! Prayer Man is a non-employee of the Depository alone amongst a bunch of employees, who went weirdly unnoticed by every single one of them.

Seems to me option 'Or' is a much bigger stretch than option 'Either'! 
 

Alternatively----------can you find another, hitherto unmentioned Depository employee to put out on those steps in the Prayer Man spot?

Thumb1:
Not sure how any of this deals with the fact the single piece of "evidence" you put forward for "Prayer Man" being a man has been blown out of the water.
Have you got anything else? 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
Not sure how any of this deals with the fact the single piece of "evidence" you put forward for "Prayer Man" being a man has been blown out of the water.
Have you got anything else? 8)

You don't think Mr Oswald's hair was receding on both sides? You're still running with this silly claim as a way of distracting from the fact that you still haven't been able to suggest a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Ho hum...

(https://i.imgur.com/1uKYIl3.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CUz6y6K.jpg)

Looks like your knock-down argument has been knocked down!  Thumb1:

So! Quit deflecting, Mr O'Meara, and tell us who you think Prayer Man might be.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 05, 2020, 11:28:37 AM
You don't think Mr Oswald's hair was receding on both sides? You're still running with this silly claim as a way of distracting from the fact that you still haven't been able to suggest a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Ho hum...

(https://i.imgur.com/1uKYIl3.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CUz6y6K.jpg)

Looks like your knock-down argument has been knocked down!  Thumb1:

So! Quit deflecting, Mr O'Meara, and tell us who you think Prayer Man might be.
At the moment I don't have anyone credible. But then again, neither do you!
This old dear is more credible than Oswald - note the hairline, the exposed arms, the classic Prayer Man pose and she's on the top step!  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y1nknsQ/Prayer-Woman-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady lied when he said he never saw Oswald!!


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 05, 2020, 02:56:59 PM
Mr Nessan, I'll take this as your way of admitting you goofed up big-time!  Thumb1:

Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

LHO even trys to change the location of where Baker and Trully encounter him.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 05, 2020, 03:10:25 PM
Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

LHO even trys to change the location of where Baker and Trully encounter him.

Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination.

No it doesn't

He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Down from the top floors? Where does he say that? Seems more like something you want to read into a comment made by a third party.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Don't attribute words, some third party used, as verbatim being Oswald's! You have no way of knowing what Oswald really said and which exact words he used.

But if you insist in doing that anyway, you surely also must accept that Oswald was stopped by a police officer "just before I got to the front door"? So, no lunchroom encounter, right?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 04:45:09 PM
Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Nope, you goofed and aren't man enough to admit that you haven't the first idea about finding real sources for your claims. Next you'll be quoting a snippet of dialogue from JFK as evidence!  :D

Quote
LHO even trys to change the location of where Baker and Trully encounter him.

Except he hasn't changed a thing-----------from the very first interrogation, he is putting himself at the front entrance for the time of the shooting (and therefore also for Officer Baker's dash into that front entrance, which is what Mr Holmes picked up). Furthermore! The DPD were telling everybody on 11/22 that Mr Oswald encountered a cop and Mr Truly at-------------you guessed it!-------------the front entrance immediately after the shooting.

In short: Mr Oswald's story remained consistent, the 'investigating' authorities' story kept changing. The only changes to Mr Oswald's story were made by said 'investigating' authorities. The coming to light of the Hosty draft report proves that beyond doubt!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 04:48:30 PM
At the moment I don't have anyone credible. But then again, neither do you!
This old dear is more credible than Oswald - note the hairline, the exposed arms, the classic Prayer Man pose and she's on the top step!  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y1nknsQ/Prayer-Woman-2.gif)

Lovelady lied when he said he never saw Oswald!!

Just a second, Mr O'Meara! Are you actually claiming that the hairline in the image of Mr Oswald I posted is inconsistent with the hairline of Prayer Man? Are you really that blind? Or that desperate to keep Mr Oswald off those steps?

You'll need to post your image of your Prayer Man Alternative Candidate again, by the way, as it's not showing up!  Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 05, 2020, 05:08:21 PM
Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

When did Holmes say "from the top floors"?

Keep in mind that you are relying on specific details from the man who came up with this gem:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.  He mentioned something about a coke."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 05:14:42 PM
When did Holmes say "from the top floors"?

Keep in mind that you are relying on specific details from the man who came up with this gem:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.  He mentioned something about a coke."

I hardly need to tell you this, Mr Iacoletti, but you shouldn't expect a coherent response from Mr Nessan.

Mr Holmes got things a little garbled, but he is crystal clear on one thing: Mr Oswald said the encounter with the cop took place at the front entrance, first floor. Which is exactly where the DPD were telling everybody on 11/22 it had happened. Despite never having even been in the Depository, Mr Holmes is able to describe the double doors/vestibule arrangement------because he heard Mr Oswald explain it (probably for the umpteenth time) to Captain Fritz.

The reason Mr Oswald mentioned a coke was that he had one in his hand at the time of the encounter. The reason he mentioned the coke machine on two was that he was explaining where he had gotten the coke from. The reason he mentioned coming downstairs was that he was describing his actions subsequent to his purchase of the coke on two.

The Hosty draft report confirms that this had been Mr Oswald's claim all along.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 05:34:26 PM
Friends, I invite you to consider the part of Officer Marion Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit which I have underlined-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/9uENdd7.jpg)

So! As Officer Baker was entering the front door, he saw several people standing around and spoke to them, asking for directions to the stairs.

Who were these people Officer Baker asked for help? And how on earth could both Mr Frazier and Mr Molina not have seen and heard him at this moment? I mean, they were standing right there by the door!

Answer: Mr Oswald was one of those people. In fact, he was the person Officer Baker focused on (perhaps even grabbing him by the arm with understandable urgency). Accordingly, everyone had to banish the exchange from their memory afterwards. For it gave Mr Oswald his alibi. Thankfully, however, before the need to NOT have seen the exchange had kicked in, Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman all about it!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 06, 2020, 11:47:23 PM
So! Officer Baker, as he's at the front door of the building, asks a bunch of folks standing there where the stairs are. Officer Baker has this event fresh in his memory as he is giving his affidavit. And yet... nobody else will seem to remember having heard, seen or been co-participants in this event. How peculiar!  :D

Well, I tell a lie... For Mr Oswald remembered that selfsame event, and backed Officer Baker's story up 100% by telling Captain Fritz all about it. We know this thanks to Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes' WC testimony.

Now! There's an interesting nuance to the answer Postal Inspector Holmes gives to Mr Belin's question, "By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?":

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


Either in the vestibule (i.e. front lobby) or approaching the door to the vestibule. Hmmm...

This puts the encounter either
................inside---------i.e. in the vestibule, Officer Baker having already gone through the front door
or
................still outside-------------i.e. at the front door leading to the vestibule. (After all, 'approaching the door to the vestibule' can only mean outside: if you're already inside, then the glass door is the door to the front steps, not the door to the vestibule!)

Mr Oswald had indeed "come out to this front part" (in order "to watch P. parade", of course), and it would seem from what Mr Holmes is saying that Mr Oswald put the encounter with the cop at the front door but still outside.

This tallies with the information put out (albeit with an anti-LHO spin) by DPD later that day: he was stopped at the front door as he was trying to leave. This too was Mr Lovelady's (erroneous) impression when he turned around and saw the cop speaking with Mr Oswald--------he hadn't noticed Mr Oswald's presence on the steps at the time of the shooting, and so thought Mr Oswald had only just arrived out front.

Officer Baker's same-day affidavit gives us the true character of the encounter: he wasn't in the least bit suspicious of Mr Oswald, he was merely asking Mr Oswald (A.K.A. Prayer Man, probably) where the nearest stairs were. And then Mr Truly stepped up... and the rest is history (or was history for a few hours before the authorities saw fit to replace the real story with a fictional one about a lunchroom!)...

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 12:13:21 AM
Mr. Weidmann certainly brings a keen sense of discernment to the table.  It certainly compliments the abundance already evident here in this thread with the invaluable contributions of Mr. Ford and Mr. Iacoletti as well. 

That said, given Mr. Hosty's revealing revelation, where the wrongly accused places himself outside instead of inside the building, let alone lurking six stories up in a *staged sniper's nest, it's becoming much clearer with the passage of time that Prayer Man is indeed none other than the wrongly accused.

Paraphrasing Mr. Ford (<-----Stay Classy btw), "If it wasn't Mr. Oswald it would be easy to place a credible candidate in his position". Seven (7) years later, No one has managed to secure Prayer Man's position with a credible-candidate to remove, irrefutably, any chance that he is indeed the wrongly accused. That's very telling. Very telling.

Add Mr. Hosty's revealing revelation moves the wrongly accused into Prayer's Man specific location even more so, because we know he didn't stand in anyone else's specific position given their respective Commission Exhibit 1381 Statements. Moreover, none of them claimed to be standing in Prayer's Man specific position either. Lest we forget, in all of the CE 1381 statements, no one saw any strangers either.

*Sidebar: Mr. Neesan (sp, my apologies if misspelled, will rectify with an Edit if so), but suffice it to say everything they, those charged with framing an innocent party, said about what the wrongly accused said and/or did that afternoon only serves a hastily contrived script.  I don't have time this evening to share the many inconsistencies and outright lies mired in horse manure stench relative to their "evidence" to frame the wrongly accused, but will leave you some more in depth details tomorrow the good Lord willing. Suffice it to say the two key witnesses starring in the hastily contrived script were not good liars.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 08, 2020, 07:04:38 AM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 04:01:52 PM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred

Appreciate the informative, insightful & interesting video share, Mr. Clements, Thank You for sharing this gem. An astute presentation by legal-counsel as well.

The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
Mr. Nessan,

First, my apologies for the initial spelling of your name in my previous post (respecting it prompted me to do some due-diligence and get it correct before addressing you here in that follow up post I promised yesterday).

Please take the time to actually watch & listen to Mr. Dwyer's astute presentation to gain some invaluable insights into this case. That said, here are a few things to address with an open mind as well:

*Only one witness, just one, places Roy Truly near the elevator & stairs on the first-floor that afternoon during the aftermath of the assassination. Unfortunately for the hastily contrived script about a mad dash upstairs to confront the wrongly accused, this lone single witness merely places Roy Truly in the company of a male figure (note not an obviously dressed uniformed white helmeted motorcycle officer in loooong black boots) ----->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
    Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
    Mr. BALL And where were you?
    Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.
    Mr. BALL. What did they do?
    Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly."
    They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about that.


What's worse is the timing element in Mr. Piper's account as he shares further within his testimony that his encounter with Roy Truly came several minutes after the assassination. The hastily contrived script falsely leads us to believe that a few minutes later the tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker have already encountered the wrongly accused and subsequently are charging up the backstairs to reach floors 3, 4, and 5 via foot.

I'm open to anyone sharing here one more witness besides Mr. Piper who actually saw Roy Truly near the backstairs on the first floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination...

Moving along now, both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker in their sworn testimony make claims about their exploits upon an otherwise locked roof (from the inside) ------>

Back in 12-15mins to share supporting documentation revealing their outright lie about their exploits upon that otherwise Locked roof...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 08, 2020, 04:31:55 PM

Welcome Alan. Glad that you liked it.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 04:49:18 PM
Welcome Alan. Glad that you liked it.

Fred

Always an interesting presentation, Mr. Clements, when the author/contributor honestly, objectively introduces Facts as opposed to pushing a hastily contrived script to frame an innocent-party.

Sidebar: Mr. Nessan, Here's an honourable man tossing suspicion upon the lying tandem of Roy Truly & Marrion Baker's phantom exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside) ----->

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

Name of Compainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy

Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date Nov 23, 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I askes some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor. I met more officers on the 2nd floor and then in a few minutes the place had maybe 50 officers in it...


Just another example when the hastily contrived script forgets the small, yet important details while framing an innocent party. There's more, Mr. Nessan, but as promised just wanted you and anyone else reading along who cares to examine this case objectively to be aware of what great magnitude the hastily contrived script fails.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anyone. Anyone.

As stated earlier, I'm open to anyone presenting another witness besides Mr. Piper who actually places Roy Truly by the stairs on the first floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination. Roy Truly & Marrion Baker don't count as they are proven liars.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 02:42:48 AM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred

Taking this informative & interesting presentation into consideration, just a brief follow up to legal counsel's comments regarding the wrongly accused taking note of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman reentering the building mere minutes before the motorcade's arrival. Mr. Dwyer's excellent points amid his exceptional style of delivery conveys to those of us willing to be honest/objective two key points:

(A) The wrongly accused cannot be upstairs at 12:25PM lurking in wait in the sixth floor southeast window in front of the building and yet witness the actions of two actual people who he accurately named reenter the building from the rear six stories below.

(B) With the tandem of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman in mind, neither man conveyed that the wrongly accused got on the elevator with them to ascend to an upper floor. Moreover, given Mr. Dougherty's testimony about returning to work at 12:30PM up on the sixth floor, he did not see the wrongly accused come up from the first-floor lunchroom via elevator and/or via the backstairs. So, since none of us believe in magic enough to suggest he magically teleported himself invisibly somehow from his actual position in the first floor lunchroom up to the staged sniper's nest, Mr. Hosty's revealing revelation is the lone option left for honest, objective researchers, at the very least, to take into consideration.

Back tomorrow good Lord willing to determine if someone has produced any other witness(es) that place Roy Truly taking the backstairs from off the first-floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination.  Given the urgency to frame an innocent party amid a hastily contrived script,  it doesn't surprise that no other witness has been produced, and the only witness, Mr. Piper, only mentions another fellow w/Roy Truly, rather than an obvious uniformed dressed white-helmeted motorcycle policeman in loooong black boots. A rather telling revelation.

Outright lying about their exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside) is rather telling as well. Roy Truly and Marrion Baker are full of it.  The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 09, 2020, 03:27:59 PM
Mr. Nessan,

First, my apologies for the initial spelling of your name in my previous post (respecting it prompted me to do some due-diligence and get it correct before addressing you here in that follow up post I promised yesterday).

Please take the time to actually watch & listen to Mr. Dwyer's astute presentation to gain some invaluable insights into this case. That said, here are a few things to address with an open mind as well:

*Only one witness, just one, places Roy Truly near the elevator & stairs on the first-floor that afternoon during the aftermath of the assassination. Unfortunately for the hastily contrived script about a mad dash upstairs to confront the wrongly accused, this lone single witness merely places Roy Truly in the company of a male figure (note not an obviously dressed uniformed white helmeted motorcycle officer in loooong black boots) ----->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
    Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
    Mr. BALL And where were you?
    Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.
    Mr. BALL. What did they do?
    Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly."
    They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about that.


What's worse is the timing element in Mr. Piper's account as he shares further within his testimony that his encounter with Roy Truly came several minutes after the assassination. The hastily contrived script falsely leads us to believe that a few minutes later the tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker have already encountered the wrongly accused and subsequently are charging up the backstairs to reach floors 3, 4, and 5 via foot.

I'm open to anyone sharing here one more witness besides Mr. Piper who actually saw Roy Truly near the backstairs on the first floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination...

Moving along now, both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker in their sworn testimony make claims about their exploits upon an otherwise locked roof (from the inside) ------>

Back in 12-15mins to share supporting documentation revealing their outright lie about their exploits upon that otherwise Locked roof...

Piper immediately identifies the man with Truly as a policeman.
Mr. Ball: Tell me what you heard.
Mr.Piper..... "I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone.

Mr. Ball: You mentioned you saw someone with Truly?
Mr. Piper: I don't know if it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but there was another fellow with him.


-------------------------

Wiseman---" I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch."

It was locked on the inside. Anyone on the inside could undo the lock open the door and go up onto the roof.


----------------------

No, that is all wrong. Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.
Baker:  . As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Here is Oswald's final words on the subject. The statement, by Oswald himself, really calls into question the whole conspiracy theory.

Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

LHO: "I started to go out and see what it was all about"---- He is in the building not outside on the front steps

 After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 05:12:45 PM
my responses in italics ---->

Piper immediately identifies the man with Truly as a policeman.
Mr. Ball: Tell me what you heard.
Mr.Piper..... "I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone.

Greetings there, Mr. Nessan

Appreciate your timely response. However,  In your quote above, you do realize a few minutes is much later than the 90 secs the hastily contrived script wishes us to believe?

Also, Mr. Piper wouldn't describe a uniformed dressed white helmeted motorcycle officer as someone working with the FBI. Major difference between a well dressed FBI agent and a white helmeted motorcycle officer in long black boots sir.


-------------------------

Wiseman---" I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch."

It was locked on the inside. Anyone on the inside could undo the lock open the door and go up onto the roof.

You're right about that if they had a key. However, lest any of us forget the lying tandem of Roy Truly & Marrion Baker per their own testimonies claim to be upon that otherwise Locked roof minutes before Mr. Wiseman discovered it Locked from the inside. So, How did Roy Truly & Marrion Baker access that otherwise Locked roof (from the inside). Even if the answer is Roy Truly had a key, there's not enough magic even in Disney World to convince critical-thinkers that Roy Truly was magical enough to lock it from the other side. Let alone magically unlock it when it was time to end their phantom exploits upon that otherwise Locked roof (from the inside).

----------------------

No, that is all wrong. Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.
Baker:  . As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Please read Baker's initial first day affidavit (will post it here for you over the next 12-15 minutes or so (please note precisely where the encounter takes place before the hastily contrived script rears its deceiving, misleading head.


Here is Oswald's final words on the subject. The statement, by Oswald himself, really calls into question the whole conspiracy theory.

Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Amid a hastily contrived script to sell to a then trusting, somewhat naive general public, we may never know precisely what the wrongly accused actually said and/or in which ordered sequence, but I do appreciate you sharing what you have learnt to date.


Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

LHO: "I started to go out and see what it was all about"---- He is in the building not outside on the front steps

 After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Be wary of anything the lying rooftop tandem of Roy Truly & Marrion Baker say after Baker's initial same day affidavit.
Off to fetch and produce Baker's same affidavit for your review.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 09, 2020, 05:35:37 PM

No, that is all wrong. Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.
Baker:  . As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Here is Oswald's final words on the subject. The statement, by Oswald himself, really calls into question the whole conspiracy theory.

Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

LHO: "I started to go out and see what it was all about"---- He is in the building not outside on the front steps

After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.


Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.

No it doesn't. If you put value on what Oswald allegedly said, according to Holmes, you have to conclude that Baker stopped Oswald "just before I [Oswald] got to the front door", which is no way near the lunchroom and even less near the 3rd or 4th floor. In fact the front door is on the other side of the building!

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

Actually, it isn't informative at all. You just want it to be.... The fact is that if Oswald went outside he would have to go down to the first floor level in order to leave the building. Using the stairs at the entrance of the building would be going down. You attached way too much value to a comment that is merely attributed to Oswald by a third party without even knowing for sure if Oswald actually used those words verbatim. That, in my book, is making up a story based on speculation and not fact.

After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Which is exactly the conclusion you wanted to arrive on. It is however not a conclusion supported by the known facts.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 05:40:18 PM
Appreciate your patience there, Mr. Nessan, am not on my own computer at the moment, so had to actually go web surfing to find Baker's same day affidavit ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


Took the liberty of highlighting the points to ponder. Again, be wary of anything the lying rooftop tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker say after this document. If you are honest as I suspect you are, Ask yourself How did an encounter outside of the lunchroom with an individual walking away from stairs now become amid a hastily contrived script about an encounter in a lunchroom? Please let that sink in a fair, objective manner sir.

Moreover, the wrongly accused, according to the authorities only weighed 131lbs on November 22, 1963, nowhere near 140lbs let alone 165.

Again, Mr. Nessan, be wary of the hastily contrived script that suddenly reared its falsehoods after Baker's same day affidavit. They willfully outright lied about their phantom exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside). The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 05:45:09 PM
Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.

No it doesn't. If you put value on what Oswald allegedly said, according to Holmes, you have to conclude that Baker stopped Oswald "just before I [Oswald] got to the front door", which is no way near the lunchroom and even less near the 3rd or 4th floor. In fact the front door is on the other side of the building!

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

Actually, it isn't informative at all. You just want it to be.... The fact is that if Oswald went outside he would have to go down to the first floor level in order to leave the building. Using the stairs at the entrance of the building would be going down. You attached way too much value to a comment that is merely attributed to Oswald by a third party without even knowing for sure if Oswald actually used those words verbatim. That, in my book, is making up a story based on speculation and not fact.

After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Which is exactly the conclusion you wanted to arrive on. It is however not a conclusion supported by the known facts.

A voice of reason amid keen discernment.

About as fair, objective a response as possible. Read this spot on post again and again, Mr. Nessan, and be wary of becoming mired in blind-folded tunnel-vision amid a self-serving hastily contrived script to frame an innocent party.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 09, 2020, 05:45:36 PM
 I can't believe that someone actually wrote a book "the exoneration of...". 

 Without the original Darnell film, no definite conclusions can be made that it is Oswald.  No one knows exactly what clothes O had on while at the TSBD that morning to make a positive claim of what he was wearing between the time the assassination took place and his arrest.  William Whaley said Oswald had on gray slacks when Oswald entered his cab.  Clearly, Oswald is not wearing gray pants in any of the photos or films taken of him during his arrest, and being paraded back and forth in fronts of the press at DPD headquarters.  Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 06:44:15 PM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred

Absolutely marvel at the courage of people who have the ability to encourage critical-thinking in others in spite of the challenges, not to mention their keen powers of discernment to shed light, truth & justice.

That said, legal-counsel Dwyer made an interesting comment in respect to the observations of Ms. Arnold (Carolyn). We are left to wonder how many other times those charged with "investigating" this matter changed the wording and timing in statements made by others.

The absolute truth always has a knack for standing all alone on its own, only lies need revisions, Especially amid a hastily contrived script to frame an innocent-party.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on August 09, 2020, 07:16:24 PM
The absolute truth always has a knack for standing all alone on its own, only lies need revisions,

Nicely said.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 07:34:25 PM
Nicely said.

Thank You!, Mr. Down, appreciate the kind words sir.  Of course, you have shared enough "Well said" posts of your own on this Forum to know them when you see them.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 07:49:33 PM
Mr. Nessan,

Should you venture back here at some point, please feel free to share any follow up responses directed towards me in my abscene, not a matter of ignoring you or your potential post(s)...just making you aware should you do so my response will be delayed...but will double-back here the good Lord willing to reengage next weekend after the work week ahead.

Best to All to remain well, healthy & safe amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 09, 2020, 08:25:36 PM
Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

You ignored this the first time I asked.  Let's see if you continue to ignore it.

How does going down to get to the front door mean "above the second floor"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2020, 09:14:07 PM
Without the original Darnell film, no definite conclusions can be made.

So we can't rule out Mr Oswald.

Now! Who------other than Mr Oswald-------can be ruled in, Mr Barber? Can you give us your list of credible candidates? Can you even give us one name?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2020, 09:21:19 PM
You ignored this the first time I asked.  Let's see if you continue to ignore it.

How does going down to get to the front door mean "above the second floor"?

Welcome to LN math, Mr Iacoletti, where 1+1=6!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 10, 2020, 01:04:23 AM
So we can't rule out Mr Oswald.

Now! Who------other than Mr Oswald-------can be ruled in, Mr Barber? Can you give us your list of credible candidates? Can you even give us one name?

 Thumb1:
     Oh come on!  Is that all you got out of my post?!   Read it!   Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 10, 2020, 01:15:25 AM
     Oh come on!  Is that all you got out of my post?!   Read it!   Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

So if a witness does not see you (or does not say he saw you) it's proof you were not there....Is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 10, 2020, 04:28:33 AM
This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

So if a witness does not see you (or does not say he saw you) it's proof you were not there....Is that what you are saying?
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?  You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?  This whole thing is absurd.     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 10, 2020, 05:40:19 AM
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?  You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?  This whole thing is absurd.     

Contradictions don't exist at CT Central

(https://i.postimg.cc/PxJJdXXB/can-of-worms.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 10, 2020, 07:18:27 AM
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?  You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?  This whole thing is absurd.     

That's not all what I said--nor am saying.

Ok, sure sounded like it though...

Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.

They can only make that claim because in the past 57 years it has never been resolved who the person is that was standing there. Everybody else on those stairs has been identified. The authorities must have known earlier on there was somebody there, yet they failed or perhaps didn't even try to put a name to that person.

So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?

No, I am not going to tell you anything of the kind. I not a big fan of looking at a blurry picture to make an "identification", but I  do feel the image is clear enough to see that there is a person there. Having said that, there are IMO a couple of points to consider; (1) Oswald told Fritz he bought a coke and then went outside to see what the commotion was. Mrs Reid saw him walking in the direction of the front door holding a bottle and an empty bottle was later found in the stairs. (2) With the motorcade passing by, and shots being fired, it doesn't seem likely to me that anybody on the stairs was looking in any other direction but the street. (3) As I understand it, the location of all TSBD employees, except Oswald's, are accounted for. (4) Nobody has ever come forward to say he/she was the person on the stairs. Why not?

With this in mind, it seems to me not beyond the realm of possibility that Oswald got to that position, while the shots were being fired and the video footage was being filmed, without anybody consciously seeing him or taking notice. If he went back into the building only seconds later, most, if not all, people wouldn't even have been aware he was there. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying or claiming that he actually was there, I am merely saying that in theory it is possible he was and nobody saw him because they all had their backs to him.

Now, as to what Frazier would do, I can not comment. I don't know the man well enough to make any kind of determination about what kind of person he is. People react differently under pressure. Don't forget Frazier was initially arrested and interrogated. Fritz even presented him with an already written confession he wanted Frazier to sign. Even if Frazier did register Oswald's presence on the stairs, do you really believe he would recall that instantly in such a stressful situation or that he would tell the officers, who already suspected him of being an accomplice. He may well have figured that Oswald would resolve the matter himself by telling the interrogators exactly where he was (which is what he seems to have done) and futher investigation would clear him anyway. Obviously, 36 hours later Oswald was dead and there wasn't much point in coming forward anymore.

You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?

People were in a state of shock and most of them, if not all, were afraid because they did not know what was going on. Brennan said he did not identify Oswald in the line up for exactly that reason. So, why do you accept this when Brennan is concerned, but not in Frazier's case? And, like I said earlier, if Oswald was there briefly, Frazier might not have seen him at all.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
     Oh come on!  Is that all you got out of my post?!   Read it!   Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

 :D

Can you or can you not offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man, Mr Barber?

If you're scared of the question, keep on not answering it!   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:38:31 AM
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?

 :D

And yet you have no difficulty accepting that Mr Frazier (and Mr Molina), who were standing at that front door when Officer Marion Baker came tearing up the steps, had no memory of having seen the white-helmeted policeman. Seems consistency ain't your forte, Mr Barber!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 10, 2020, 02:10:53 PM
:D

Can you or can you not offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man, Mr Barber?

If you're scared of the question, keep on not answering it!   Thumb1:

 Oh, pardon me!  Don't flatter yourself, Mr. Ford! None of you conspiracy buffs say anything that "scare" me!
 
Your question is both ridiculous and stupid.  You expect a person to name "a credible alternative" to "Prayer man", when none of us know what all of the men who worked at the depository looked like!  Furthermore, no one knows whether "Prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD or someone off the street!  So there's your answer!  Like it or not!   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 10, 2020, 03:25:23 PM
Appreciate your patience there, Mr. Nessan, am not on my own computer at the moment, so had to actually go web surfing to find Baker's same day affidavit ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


Took the liberty of highlighting the points to ponder. Again, be wary of anything the lying rooftop tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker say after this document. If you are honest as I suspect you are, Ask yourself How did an encounter outside of the lunchroom with an individual walking away from stairs now become amid a hastily contrived script about an encounter in a lunchroom? Please let that sink in a fair, objective manner sir.

Moreover, the wrongly accused, according to the authorities only weighed 131lbs on November 22, 1963, nowhere near 140lbs let alone 165.

Again, Mr. Nessan, be wary of the hastily contrived script that suddenly reared its falsehoods after Baker's same day affidavit. They willfully outright lied about their phantom exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside). The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.


The roof door was locked from the inside and could only be opened by someone on the inside which is what they did.

---------------

Baker is not the villian. There were shots fired and Baker was trying to locate the source. Same as anybody would. He was running up the stairs and seen LHO out of the corner of his eye. A few seconds difference and Baker would not have even seen him at all.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----

----------------------------


Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 10, 2020, 03:30:22 PM
You ignored this the first time I asked.  Let's see if you continue to ignore it.

How does going down to get to the front door mean "above the second floor"?

 LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" can only mean he was located above the second floor and went down to the second floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 10, 2020, 04:57:22 PM
LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" can only mean he was located above the second floor and went down to the second floor.

That's a very one sided interpretation of words that Oswald may or may not have spoken.

To go outside the building, as he said - according to the same report - he did, he also needed to go down, from the 2nd floor to street level. If Oswald actually said those words at all, he could just as easily have been talking about going down the stairs at the front door.

You also seem to want to cherry pick what, according to the report, Oswald said as you ignore his comment: "a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door". If Oswald said this and it is true, there never was an encounter in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and him being stopped just before he got to the front door gives further credence to the suggestion that he actually was talking about going outside when he said "I went down".

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 10, 2020, 07:28:26 PM
LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" can only mean he was located above the second floor and went down to the second floor.

The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:45:55 PM
Oh, pardon me!  Don't flatter yourself, Mr. Ford! None of you conspiracy buffs say anything that "scare" me!
 
Your question is both ridiculous and stupid.  You expect a person to name "a credible alternative" to "Prayer man", when none of us know what all of the men who worked at the depository looked like!  Furthermore, no one knows whether "Prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD or someone off the street!  So there's your answer!  Like it or not!

I don't just like your answer, Mr Barber, I love it--------it shows how lost you are on this issue!  Thumb1:

Now! Prayer Man (and I note your agreement that's it's a Man not a Woman) is not just in the Darnell film but in the Wiegman film too. At the time of the shooting, therefore, he is standing over by himself at the west side of the front entrance.

Here's where your problem starts, Mr Barber... Every single Depository worker who came to work that day gave account of their whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Not a single one---------not a one!----------puts themselves where we see Prayer Man. They all put themselves somewhere else!  Thumb1:

What this means is that your 'we don't know what all employees looked like' line is a hopeless deflection. Because even if you could come up with the name of a single employee whose appearance (physiognomy, clothes, hair) might make them a fit for Prayer Man (which you obviously can't!), that person would be immediately ruled out by virtue of their known presence elsewhere. An example of this would be Mr Billy Lovelady, whom we know was NOT standing beside Mr Billy Lovelady at the time of the shooting!

Keeping up so far, Mr Barber? Good for you------------let's proceed!  Thumb1:

The collapse of your 'some other Depository man' argument leaves you with your Hail Mary pass: Prayer Man is a random stranger off the street. The fact that you resort to this second hopeless argument merely tells us that your powers of logic leave a lot to be desired. On the one hand, you tell us how crazy it is to suggest that a nondescript employee (Mr Oswald) might have blended in all but unnoticed amongst a bunch of fellow employees; on the other hand, you tell us that you have no problem believing that a stranger could have stood up there----------the sole non-employee in an area filled only with employees------------and NOT have stood out like a sore thumb.

Your scenario, in short, is based on irrational thinking--------------par for the course with LN 'researchers' like you whose intense emotional investment in Mr Oswald's guilt clouds their cognitive faculties when it comes to assessing evidence that doesn't fit their beloved narrative!

A much more sensible-------------not least for your own ultimate peace of mind, Mr Barber!-----------would be to accept that a) you got this case all wrong, b) an employee who we now know claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. parade" did indeed do so, and chose a place where plenty other employees were congregated, and unsurprisingly didn't stick out like a sore thumb (as your mythical Random Stranger would have done!).

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:47:25 PM
The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Poor Mr Nessan thinks the front door was located at the second-floor lunchroom!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 10, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
If Baker is telling the truth he confronted Oswald on the second floor.
If the recorded words are true Baker confronted Oswald just as he reached the front door.
Either way, Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination
This is in accordance with the video evidence of Oswald saying exactly this. ("In" meaning "inside" in this case)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 11:28:24 PM
If Baker is telling the truth he confronted Oswald on the second floor.

If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?

Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in...

Quote
If the recorded words are true Baker confronted Oswald just as he reached the front door.
Either way, Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination

Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?

Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?

Quote
This is in accordance with the video evidence of Oswald saying exactly this. ("In" meaning "inside" in this case)

If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade".

While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2020, 12:05:37 AM
If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?

Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in...

Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?

Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?

If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade".

While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)

"If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?"

He was unfamiliar with the building and pumped full of adrenaline. In his statement he is very vague about where the confrontation took place, possibly not realising it's importance. He doesn't say "a floor higher than two". The re-enactment probably cleared things up if he hadn't already realised it was the second floor.

"Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in... "

The usual fantasia Mr Ford

"Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?"

Read the post you're replying to.

"Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?"

This is what Baker actually stated: "As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were."
Do you see how you've twisted the original meaning?
Were they inside or outside? The clue is in the phrase "As I entered the front door". The front door delineates inside and outside. Isn't that obvious?
Who are these people? I thought you Prayer Man lot had accounted for where everyone was. Roy Lewis also talks about some women standing in this area. Who are they? Don't you know?

"If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade"."

Erm...


"While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)"


The second you come up with anyone even remotely credible I'll give it some thought 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 11, 2020, 04:15:44 AM

Frazier has been shown the Prayer Man photo on many occasions and each time he has given different answers. He has never said that is Oswald, but has never said that is not Oswald either.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 11, 2020, 05:59:47 AM
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2020, 12:24:06 PM
"If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?"

He was unfamiliar with the building and pumped full of adrenaline. In his statement he is very vague about where the confrontation took place,

No, he's not----------------he says he saw the man "walking away from the stairway", he called out to the man and the man turned around and came back to him. Nothing vague there!  Thumb1:

Quote
possibly not realising it's importance. He doesn't say "a floor higher than two".

You don't think "third or fourth floor" is higher than second floor?  ::)

Quote
The re-enactment probably cleared things up if he hadn't already realised it was the second floor.

How naive!

Quote
"Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in... "

The usual fantasia Mr Ford

So you didn't even know that Officer Baker saw Mr Oswald being brought in as he (Officer Baker) was giving his affidavit? Oh dear...

Quote
"Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?"

Read the post you're replying to.

I have done, Mr O'Meara, and it's hopelessly unclear: who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Do tell!  Thumb1:

Quote
"Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?"

This is what Baker actually stated: "As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were."
Do you see how you've twisted the original meaning?
Were they inside or outside? The clue is in the phrase "As I entered the front door". The front door delineates inside and outside. Isn't that obvious?
Who are these people? I thought you Prayer Man lot had accounted for where everyone was. Roy Lewis also talks about some women standing in this area. Who are they? Don't you know?

Nice try, but... nope! Officer Baker's "As I entered the door" could place the people "standing around" either inside or outside.

Quote
"If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade"."

Erm...

Exactly------you can't explain away what's in the Hosty draft report and so just do what you tend to do in these situations: ignore what's inconvenient to your theory.

Quote

"While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)"


The second you come up with anyone even remotely credible I'll give it some thought 8)

So you refuse to accept even the possibility that Prayer Man might be Mr Oswald, yet you still can't offer a single credible alternative candidate? No wonder you don't want to talk about the Hosty draft report!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2020, 12:29:06 PM
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close.

V. interesting, Mr Crow----------the selfsame ambiguity about exact location as we have been debating re. Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony!  Thumb1:

Cf! the first FBI interview report with Mr Truly: "...he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there and he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs..."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 11, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Exactly, obviously he was not outside or even on the first floor during the parade. He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs. He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated. Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor and LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Basically was LHO on the second floor or not when he encountered Baker and Truly.




Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 11, 2020, 05:22:53 PM
Exactly, obviously he was not outside or even on the first floor during the parade. He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs. He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated. Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor and LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Basically was LHO on the second floor or not when he encountered Baker and Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.

He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs.

Now you're getting it... and to go downstairs (meaning outside) he had to leave the building at the front door and go down the stairs.

He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated.

Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor.

Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor

Well, ain't that a shame... You were doing so well, and now you've gone and spoil it. There is nothing in Oswald's (or rather Holmes') account that confirms he was descending from a higher floor.

LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2020, 10:40:30 PM
"Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building..."


"Up in the building"
Yet another statement Oswald was inside the building at the time of the shooting according to Oswald.
Unless, of course, "up in the building" means up the front steps, placing him exactly where the PM crew fantasise about him being  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2020, 11:12:20 PM
"Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building..."


"Up in the building"
Yet another statement Oswald was inside the building at the time of the shooting according to Oswald.

Funny how your response to a trained FBI agent's clearly worded draft official interrogation report 11/22/63 was: unless you can show me audio or footage of Mr Oswald actually saying this, I won't believe it... Whereas your response to Mr Holmes's clearly muddled WC testimony given months after the event is: we can safely bank this as a statement from Oswald.

Could you at least do a better job of pretending to be consistent, Mr O'Meara?

Also! Any progress on your alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Or are you coming around to the view that it's probably not a human being after all but a mere film artefact?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2020, 11:22:50 PM
Funny how your response to a trained FBI agent's clearly worded draft official interrogation report 11/22/63 was: unless you can show me audio or footage of Mr Oswald actually saying this, I won't believe it... Whereas your response to Mr Holmes's clearly muddled WC testimony given months after the event is: we can safely bank this as a statement from Oswald.

Could you at least do a better job of pretending to be consistent, Mr O'Meara?

Also! Any progress on your alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Or are you coming around to the view that it's probably not a human being after all but a mere film artefact?

 Thumb1:
All I'm saying is that Holmes confirms what came out of Oswald's mouth on video. Not really sure how Hosty's notes beat this.
I've noticed you've dropped the word 'credible', perhaps an admission of the status of you're own choice.
I must say, the more I look at Prayer Man, the fatter she gets! Must be my old tired eyes  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2020, 11:01:36 AM
All I'm saying is that Holmes confirms what came out of Oswald's mouth on video. Not really sure how Hosty's notes beat this.

All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else.

Suppose the exchange with the reporter had gone as follows-------------

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
MR OSWALD: Front entrance steps.


Are you seriously suggesting Mr Oswald's response would have been incorrect or misleading, or that he should have gone into semantics with the reporter?

As for why the Hosty draft report beats a) your tendentious interpretation of Mr Oswald's actual response to the reporter + b) Mr Holmes' muddled recall months after the event, the answer is obvious:

The words "Then went outside to watch P. parade" are:
------------------matchlessly unambiguous (not "went outside to see what was happening/to see the commotion/excitement, etc")
------------------written on the back of a blank DPD affidavit form, i.e. while the memory of Mr Oswald's first interrogation is still fresh
------------------found on a page of an FBI agent's official draft report that contains plenty other information that no one is suggesting is erroneous

If you disagree with this last point, take a look at the page and tell us what else (other than the explosive "Then went outside to watch P. parade") you believe Agent Hosty hallucinated Mr Oswald as having said:

(https://i.imgur.com/4k9namT.jpg)

To suggest that Agent Hosty misheard or completely misunderstood what the suspect had to say about the single most critical question in the single most momentous case he or anyone else had ever been involved in is just fanciful in the extreme.

Quote
I've noticed you've dropped the word 'credible', perhaps an admission of the status of you're own choice.

Not at all! Mr Oswald is the only credible candidate thus far put forward for Prayer Man. And you still can't come up with an alternative credible candidate!  Thumb1:

Quote
I must say, the more I look at Prayer Man, the fatter she gets! Must be my old tired eyes 

Well, those same eyes were recently telling you Prayer Man was lighting a cigarette. How did that work out?

Admit it, Mr O'Meara, if it were possible to identify Prayer Man as Mr Billy Lovelady, you'd be enthusiastically backing that I.D. and telling us all how obvious it is that Prayer Man is a slim white male in worker's garb-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/a0QwrHZ.gif)

Unfortunately for you, and for all the other members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, Mr Lovelady is not available to make Prayer Man safe. And nor, it would appear from your responses to date, is anyone else!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 12, 2020, 04:24:34 PM

 I do wish that NBC would release the original films. Then this issue could be solved.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2020, 05:47:37 PM
Fun fact, friends, which I came across here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/page/87/

Back in 2013, when the Prayer Man issue first came to the fore, our very own Mr Steve Barber took one look at him and identified him as..... Mr Billy Lovelady!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 12, 2020, 08:40:29 PM
All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else.

Suppose the exchange with the reporter had gone as follows-------------

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
MR OSWALD: Front entrance steps.


Are you seriously suggesting Mr Oswald's response would have been incorrect or misleading, or that he should have gone into semantics with the reporter?

As for why the Hosty draft report beats a) your tendentious interpretation of Mr Oswald's actual response to the reporter + b) Mr Holmes' muddled recall months after the event, the answer is obvious:

The words "Then went outside to watch P. parade" are:
------------------matchlessly unambiguous (not "went outside to see what was happening/to see the commotion/excitement, etc")
------------------written on the back of a blank DPD affidavit form, i.e. while the memory of Mr Oswald's first interrogation is still fresh
------------------found on a page of an FBI agent's official draft report that contains plenty other information that no one is suggesting is erroneous

If you disagree with this last point, take a look at the page and tell us what else (other than the explosive "Then went outside to watch P. parade") you believe Agent Hosty hallucinated Mr Oswald as having said:

(https://i.imgur.com/4k9namT.jpg)

To suggest that Agent Hosty misheard or completely misunderstood what the suspect had to say about the single most critical question in the single most momentous case he or anyone else had ever been involved in is just fanciful in the extreme.

Not at all! Mr Oswald is the only credible candidate thus far put forward for Prayer Man. And you still can't come up with an alternative credible candidate!  Thumb1:

Well, those same eyes were recently telling you Prayer Man was lighting a cigarette. How did that work out?

Admit it, Mr O'Meara, if it were possible to identify Prayer Man as Mr Billy Lovelady, you'd be enthusiastically backing that I.D. and telling us all how obvious it is that Prayer Man is a slim white male in worker's garb-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/a0QwrHZ.gif)

Unfortunately for you, and for all the other members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, Mr Lovelady is not available to make Prayer Man safe. And nor, it would appear from your responses to date, is anyone else!  Thumb1:

"All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else."

All I have is Oswald on video confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination, corroborated by Holmes. The insane mental gymnastics involved in arguing that out on the front steps of the building is 'still in the building' are spooky. Nobody looks at it that way except for the zealous PM crew. The front door is right there, on one side is in the building on the other is outside the building. Please don't respond to this comment as I've heard all I need to hear about it.

"Suppose the exchange with the reporter had gone as follows-------------

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
MR OSWALD: Front entrance steps.


Are you seriously suggesting Mr Oswald's response would have been incorrect or misleading, or that he should have gone into semantics with the reporter?"


 :D :D :D :D
Brilliant stuff. More fantasia Mr Ford! Suppose the exchange went like this:

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
OSWALD: I'm Prayer Man.

 :P

"As for why the Hosty draft report beats a) your tendentious interpretation of Mr Oswald's actual response to the reporter + b) Mr Holmes' muddled recall months after the event, the answer is obvious:

The words "Then went outside to watch P. parade" are:
------------------matchlessly unambiguous (not "went outside to see what was happening/to see the commotion/excitement, etc")
------------------written on the back of a blank DPD affidavit form, i.e. while the memory of Mr Oswald's first interrogation is still fresh
------------------found on a page of an FBI agent's official draft report that contains plenty other information that no one is suggesting is erroneous"


Oswald is involved in the assassination and is giving a false alibi. Why has this not crossed your mind. In PM world Oswald must be seen as a completely innocent bystander. Is that the case? Do you believe that Oswald had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination?

"Not at all! Mr Oswald is the only credible candidate thus far put forward for Prayer Man. And you still can't come up with an alternative credible candidate!  Thumb1:"

Oswald is not even remotely credible. The single piece of evidence you have put forward for Prayer Man even being a man, let alone Oswald, is that the Shadow Person has a receding hairline. This is wrong. You are seeing what you want to see. What else do you have to offer on this subject. What other piece of evidence makes you believe this is a man?

"Well, those same eyes were recently telling you Prayer Man was lighting a cigarette. How did that work out?"

(https://i.postimg.cc/hj5JmBnP/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

This Gif shows someone lighting a cigarette. Frame 1, the head tilts forward to light the cigarette (not something you would do if taking a drink out of a bottle). Frame 2, head straightens up and blows out a cloud of smoke. The Coke bottle on the steps is almost certainly Lovelady's.

"Admit it, Mr O'Meara, if it were possible to identify Prayer Man as Mr Billy Lovelady, you'd be enthusiastically backing that I.D. and telling us all how obvious it is that Prayer Man is a slim white male in worker's garb-----------"

Lovelady is just in front of the Shadow Person listening to Gloria Calvery. Note that all these people re-entering the building also fail to identify Oswald.
Admit it Mr Ford, you've put too much time and effort into this nonsense and you can't back out now. You end up making bizarre arguments like outside the building is still in the building because you simply cannot back out now. You need to be the Prayer Man, Mr Ford, and pray something never comes to light to show how misguided Team Oswald On The Steps have been.  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2020, 10:59:36 PM
Let's cut to the chase, Mr O'Meara!

With respect to Agent Hosty's information that Mr Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. parade", you write-----------

Oswald is involved in the assassination and is giving a false alibi.

And there we have it----------we cannot countenance Mr Oswald as Prayer Man because he needs to give a false alibi for the time of the shooting.

What makes you think Mr Oswald needs a false alibi for the time of the shooting? Where do you believe he actually was at the time in question?

And how do you explain the fact that those involved in his interrogation lied about what he claimed in custody? Why would they press mute on an alibi they knew to be false?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 12, 2020, 11:22:35 PM
Exactly, obviously he was not outside or even on the first floor during the parade. He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs. He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated. Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor

If Holmes was accurate then Oswald needed to be no higher than the second floor before "going down".  You stated that he had to be above the second floor.

But that doesn't tell you anything about where he was during the assassination.  Just "when all this commotion started", whatever that means.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 12, 2020, 11:36:38 PM
Oswald is not even remotely credible. The single piece of evidence you have put forward for Prayer Man even being a man, let alone Oswald, is that the Shadow Person has a receding hairline. This is wrong. You are seeing what you want to see.

Doesn't the same go for your "fat woman lighting a cigarette"?

Quote
Lovelady is just in front of the Shadow Person listening to Gloria Calvery.

LOL
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 12, 2020, 11:57:03 PM
Doesn't the same go for your "fat woman lighting a cigarette"?

LOL
Honestly John, I have no real desire or need to see a fat woman lighting a cigarette.
The PM crew do have a need and desire to see Oswald there.
I think the argument for it being Oswald is really weak and there are solid arguments against it:
Oswald himself saying he was in the building (what do you think about the outside yet still in the building twist?)
Holmes confirming it.
Not one witness putting him there
If he was always going to be the Patsy, those running the show couldn't have him just running around

I think the Gif looks more like someone lighting a cigarette than any other idea put forward.
The 'woman' aspect is there to highlight this is a real possibility. Assuming it's a man because it has to be Oswald isn't good enough.
And the Shadow Person looks beefier than skinny ol' Oswald. According to my tired. old eyes.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 12:00:31 AM
Let's cut to the chase, Mr O'Meara!

With respect to Agent Hosty's information that Mr Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. parade", you write-----------

And there we have it----------we cannot countenance Mr Oswald as Prayer Man because he needs to give a false alibi for the time of the shooting.

What makes you think Mr Oswald needs a false alibi for the time of the shooting? Where do you believe he actually was at the time in question?

And how do you explain the fact that those involved in his interrogation lied about what he claimed in custody? Why would they press mute on an alibi they knew to be false?

 Thumb1:

Yes Mr Ford, let's cut to the chase.
I think Oswald needs an alibi because I think he's involved in the assassination.
Do you think he's involved or not?
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 12:18:45 AM
Yes Mr Ford, let's cut to the chase.
I think Oswald needs an alibi because I think he's involved in the assassination.
Do you think he's involved or not?
 8)

I have yet to see a compelling argument for Oswald's involvement in the assassination.  Just a bunch of conjecture and handwaving.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
I have yet to see a compelling argument for Oswald's involvement in the assassination.  Just a bunch of conjecture and handwaving.
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor, the very floor multiple witnesses state shots were fired from (Williams and co.).
That isn't a compelling argument Oswald was involved?
Or is it a compelling argument Oswald was set up?
Or does it mean nothing?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:23:25 AM
If he was always going to be the Patsy, those running the show couldn't have him just running around

Why assume Mr Oswald was being set up as the sixth floor shooter? If he wasn't, then it didn't much matter where he was going to be at the time of the shooting!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:33:44 AM
Yes Mr Ford, let's cut to the chase.
I think Oswald needs an alibi because I think he's involved in the assassination.

Well, you think Mr Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr Jack Dougherty are also involved in the assassination. Did they need a fake alibi too?

Quote
Do you think he's involved or not?
 8)

I think he was framed for involvement, though I cannot altogether rule out his having been a knowing participant.

Now your turn, Mr O'Meara: Where do you think Mr Oswald was at the time of the shooting?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:39:50 AM
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor, the very floor multiple witnesses state shots were fired from (Williams and co.).

"Williams and co."? But you've been telling us Mr Williams was in on the conspiracy. Now he's a credible witness against Mr Oswald?  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 13, 2020, 10:41:35 AM
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor, the very floor multiple witnesses state shots were fired from (Williams and co.).
That isn't a compelling argument Oswald was involved?
Or is it a compelling argument Oswald was set up?
Or does it mean nothing?

Lt Day claims that he found a palm print on the rifle on Friday evening. The FBI, who examined the rifle within 24 hours after to murder, could find no trace of any kind of print on the rifle, so if Day had lifted a print, it would have been a 100% perfect lift, eliminating any possible remanence, which is highly unusual. Day didn't produce the palm print on an evidence card until November 26, thus reducing it's evidentary value to next to nothing.

So, no, it isn't a compelling argument that Oswald was involved.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 13, 2020, 03:44:06 PM
He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs.

Now you're getting it... and to go downstairs (meaning outside) he had to leave the building at the front door and go down the stairs.

He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated.

Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor.

Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor

Well, ain't that a shame... You were doing so well, and now you've gone and spoil it. There is nothing in Oswald's (or rather Holmes') account that confirms he was descending from a higher floor.

LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. Thumb1:

Weidmann: "Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. "


Congratulations, this is a first Martin. Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements, etc., but this time you are right LHO was in the building during the assassination. The interesting part is your posts show every indication that you weren't even tracking the discussion. You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 13, 2020, 05:10:24 PM
Weidmann: "Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. "


Congratulations, this is a first Martin. Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements, etc., but this time you are right LHO was in the building during the assassination. The interesting part is your posts show every indication that you weren't even tracking the discussion. You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

The sarcasm of my remark went straight over your head, didn't it?

Btw, do you need reminding that the encounter with Baker and Truly (near the front door) took place after and not during the assassination?


Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements,

Show me one time where I made up my own times (whatever that means) or a witness statement! I bet know you can't.

You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

Just a strongly as I feel for everything there isn't credible or sufficient evidence for, like - for instance - Oswald being any higher than on the 2nd floor when the shots were fired.

I'm not exactly sure what you hope to achieve by these "drive-by" posts, but I do understand why you are doing it. It's far easier to do, and maybe score some minor point to satisfy your ego, than have a proper discussion based on facts and evidence, isn't it?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 07:22:01 PM
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor,

No, a partial palmprint was found on an index card that arrived a week later.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 07:27:45 PM
Btw, do you need reminding that the encounter with Baker and Truly (near the front door) took place after and not during the assassination?

Besides, the reporter didn't say anything about "during the assassination" in the first place.

Is there any possibility that prayer-blob is on the other side of the glass?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 08:36:39 PM
Fun fact, friends, which I came across here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/page/87/

Back in 2013, when the Prayer Man issue first came to the fore, our very own Mr Steve Barber took one look at him and identified him as..... Mr Billy Lovelady!  :D

Mr Barber was, of course, quite right: Prayer Man does look like he could well be Mr Billy Lovelady--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/PkZGC6P.jpg)

Which-------logically enough--------means he looks like he could well be someone who looked like Mr Billy Lovelady. (I don't imagine Mr Barber wanted to go there though!  :D )

Which brings us back to the the ridiculous 'shadow' that falls down the actual Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pB1TANt.jpg)

As we know, Mr Lovelady is nowhere near the natural shadow cast by the front column on the west side of the entranceway. The 'shadow' obscuring much of the right side of his body is therefore a natural impossibility. It has been added to the film.

So---------------what did the people who added this shadow want to hide?

I have suggested: the presence of key witness Ms Carolyn Arnold.

But here's another possible explanation:

1. The original Wiegman film showed Mr Lovelady wearing his shirt sleeves rolled down
2. The Darnell film------------which was already out in circulation in the public sphere and so couldn't be messed with--------------showed a man resembling two male Depository employees = a man with his sleeves rolled up, standing on his own near the west wall of the entranceway (=the man we know as Prayer Man)
3. The 'investigating' authorities knew that this man could not be Mr Lovelady; in fact they knew he was none other than Mr Oswald (the suspect who had clearly stated that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade)
4. There was only one thing for it: to take out insurance cover for the day someone noticed sleeves-rolled-up-man and said 'Hey, maybe that's Oswald!': turn Mr Lovelady into a credible candidate for sleeves-rolled-up-man (i.e. Prayer Man) by covering up his right arm in the Wiegman film (and getting him to pretend he had worn a short-sleeved shirt that day)
5. Unfortunately, those behind this scam could not have known that researchers of the future would have access to digital technology and so would be able to bring out sufficient detail from the Wiegman frames to establish that sleeves-rolled-up-man in Darnell is already there in Wiegman ------------- and so cannot be Mr Lovelady! Nor could they predict the emergence of the Hughes and Martin films showing Mr Lovelady in his long-sleeved red-black plaid shirt!
6. Fortunately, the very fact of an impossible shadow falling down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman proves the intense anxiety of the 'investigating' authorities to make the front steps safe by hiding something that was there------------and therefore all on its own obliterates the nervous, incoherent assurances from Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps that, with regard to the Oswald-Out-Front issue, there is 'nothing to see here'. They couldn't be more right------------and more wrong!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
Being a novice I must be excused the odd rookie mistake. In the past few months I must have read this passage a few times but it never stood out. Billy Lovelady's 3/19/64 FBI statement:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository building. At this time I recall that William H Shelley...and Mrs Sarah Stanton...were standing next to me"

 8) 8) 8) 8)

Go "Team Keep Oswald From Them There Steps"!!!

Stanton is Prayer Man. Come back Brian Doyle, all is forgiven ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 10:00:05 PM
Being a novice I must be excused the odd rookie mistake. In the past few months I must have read this passage a few times but it never stood out. Billy Lovelady's 3/19/64 FBI statement:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository building. At this time I recall that William H Shelley...and Mrs Sarah Stanton...were standing next to me"

 8) 8) 8) 8)

Go "Team Keep Oswald From Them There Steps"!!!

Stanton is Prayer Man. Come back Brian Doyle, all is forgiven ;D ;D ;D

Except for the small detail that neither Lovelady nor Shelley is there standing next to prayer-blob.  But by all means, throw your lot in with the banned guy with 784 falsehoods and fabrications.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 10:10:38 PM
Pauline Sanders:

"At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the Presidential Motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository building at about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance.  I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others."

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:17:57 PM
Being a novice I must be excused the odd rookie mistake. In the past few months I must have read this passage a few times but it never stood out. Billy Lovelady's 3/19/64 FBI statement:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository building. At this time I recall that William H Shelley...and Mrs Sarah Stanton...were standing next to me"

 8) 8) 8) 8)

Go "Team Keep Oswald From Them There Steps"!!!

Stanton is Prayer Man. Come back Brian Doyle, all is forgiven ;D ;D ;D

You're making quite the fool of yourself, Mr O'Meara.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 10:33:16 PM
Except for the small detail that neither Lovelady nor Shelley is there standing next to prayer-blob.  But by all means, throw your lot in with the banned guy with 784 falsehoods and fabrications.
So what do you think he means? Shelley and Lovelady aren't stood next to each other either.
Because there is no-one between Lovelady and Stanton he is quite right to say she was standing next to him. He could hardly say that if she was by the west wall of the entranceway.
It's also interesting to note what Stanton has to say in her 3/18/64 FBI statement:
"When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley...and Billy Lovelady... I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

Again, Stanton has herself, Lovelady and Shelley together. More importantly, once the Presidential limo has passed the front of the building she can no longer see it.
Why?
Because she's in the west corner of the entranceway sparking up a cjgarette!
The two closest people to Stanton on the top step are Lovelady and Shelley.
(I wonder what brand she smokes)
 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 11:00:22 PM
So what do you think he means? Shelley and Lovelady aren't stood next to each other either.

Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either.

Quote
Because there is no-one between Lovelady and Stanton he is quite right to say she was standing next to him. He could hardly say that if she was by the west wall of the entranceway.

He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway).

Quote
Again, Stanton has herself, Lovelady and Shelley together.

Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 11:11:19 PM
Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either.

He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway).

Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate.

"Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either."

You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?

"He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway)."

That has no bearing on the point I'm making. (wouldn't she be in Altgens 6)

"Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate."

Nice flip flop. A second ago no-one was standing next to prayer-blob as if it was some vast expanse of real estate, now everyone's together.
The two closest people to prayer-blob are Lovelady and Shelley. Lovelady confirms she was over by the right (west) side. Stanton can't see the motorcade as soon as it passes the front of the building.
Stanton is prayer-blob  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 11:29:35 PM
It's also interesting to note what Stanton has to say in her 3/18/64 FBI statement:
"When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley...and Billy Lovelady... I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

It's also interesting to note what Mr Joe Molina has to say in his 3/25/64 FBI statement:
"Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots."

It's also interesting to note what Mr Otis Williams has to say in his 3/19/64 FBI statement:
"Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm St embankment I heard three loud blasts."

As soon as you have finished driving yourself to distraction trying to make Prayer Man an obese woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a dark wig in a professional situation, you can move on to proclaiming with that curious Doylesque certainty of yours that Prayer Man is Mr Molina. When that falls to pieces, you will no doubt pivot to pinning the Prayer Man identity on Mr Williams. When that blows up in your face you will authoritatively inform us that Prayer Man is obviously the ice-cold gun-toting conspirator Mr Jack Dougherty----------who is fiendishly wearing a dress in a professional situation...

Go away for a while, Mr O'Meara, and rest those tired eyes and that addled Doylesque mind!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 11:50:41 PM
You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?

Why should I?

PS. what fat chap?

Quote
That has no bearing on the point I'm making. (wouldn't she be in Altgens 6)

Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground.

Quote
Nice flip flop. A second ago no-one was standing next to prayer-blob as if it was some vast expanse of real estate, now everyone's together.

Are you claiming that there's no difference between "next to" and "standing with"?

Quote
The two closest people to prayer-blob are Lovelady and Shelley.

I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk.

Quote
Lovelady confirms she was over by the right (west) side.

No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 14, 2020, 03:33:33 PM
The sarcasm of my remark went straight over your head, didn't it?

Btw, do you need reminding that the encounter with Baker and Truly (near the front door) took place after and not during the assassination?


Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements,

Show me one time where I made up my own times (whatever that means) or a witness statement! I bet know you can't.

You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

Just a strongly as I feel for everything there isn't credible or sufficient evidence for, like - for instance - Oswald being any higher than on the 2nd floor when the shots were fired.

I'm not exactly sure what you hope to achieve by these "drive-by" posts, but I do understand why you are doing it. It's far easier to do, and maybe score some minor point to satisfy your ego, than have a proper discussion based on facts and evidence, isn't it?

You weren't being sarcastic. Here is your beliefs from the Martin Weidmann --Adams and Styles Timeline.
The Martin Weidmann Assassination Timeline

Oswald arrives at the second floor lunch room where he meets Baker and Truly after descending from upstairs,

12:30:30
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door

12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom

etc...........


----------

Weidmann: "Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor."

This is all you. How about what you made up right here. Frontdoors of the second floor?

Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Where does it say the "front doors of the second floor"?

Do you just post whatever ridiculous thing pops into your head?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 14, 2020, 04:32:58 PM
He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated.

... and as Mr Billy Lovelady stated to Mr James Jarman shortly after the assassination

... and as DPD themselves stated later that same day!

(https://i.imgur.com/7QVSFph.jpg)

I guess Mr Oswald must have had someone feeding him highly specific information from the outside world while he was in custody!  :D

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 14, 2020, 05:51:43 PM
You weren't being sarcastic.

It is always hilarious when some ignorant clown thinks he knows better than me what my intend was in writing something.

Thanks for the laugh and confirming that my sarcasm did indeed go way over your head.

Quote

Here is your beliefs from the Martin Weidmann --Adams and Styles Timeline.
The Martin Weidmann Assassination Timeline

Oswald arrives at the second floor lunch room where he meets Baker and Truly after descending from upstairs,

12:30:30
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door

12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom

etc...........


----------

You really aren't getting any of this, are you now?

First of all it is not my "beliefs" and it most certainly isn't "the Martin Weidmann Assassination timeline". This may be somewhat difficult for you to understand, but it was an attempt to reconcile known testimony in such a way that it would result in a plausible timeline. The whole thing was a theoretical exercise, nothing more and nothing less, which you apparently also failed to notice or understand. Unlike you, I am able to look at other people's point of view and work with them despite the fact that I do not agree with them.

In this particular case, the assumption, for the sake of argument, was that Oswald did in fact come down from the 6th floor (which I actually do not believe he ever did), to see if it was physically possible for him, or anybody else, to come down the stairs just after Adams and Styles without running into them and with enough time to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom. The timeline showed that it was theoretically possible that Adams and Styles were indeed on the stairs in front of Oswald and that it was physically impossible for Adams to have seen Shelley and Loveday as she came of the stairs.

The mere fact that you only quote selectively from the timeline exposes your dishonesty. It's either that, or you are simply too dumb to comprehend any of this.

Quote
Weidmann: "Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor."

This is all you. How about what you made up right here. Frontdoors of the second floor?

I still stand by the comment that Oswald never stated that he came down from any higher than the 2nd floor. I also subscribe 100% to the fact that Holmes said that Oswald encountered Baker and Truly near the front doors.

There is nothing made up. You are comparing apples and oranges.... A theoretical exercise on the one hand with a factual statement of mine on the other. Again, it's either complete dishonesty on your part or massive ignorance.

Quote
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Where does it say the "front doors of the second floor"?


More stupidity on display for all to see!

Please tell us all, when Holmes says : "He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door" what other front door is there at the TSBD, except the one leading to Elm Street on the 2nd floor?

And through which door did Baker and Truly enter the building? .... Wanna think about a bit about this or have you already figured out that it was the front door on the Elm Street side of the building?

For anybody with a functional brain, this is an easy one to figure out.... For you, not so easy, it seems.

Quote
Do you just post whatever ridiculous thing pops into your head?

No, but as proven by your post, you most certainly do.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 14, 2020, 10:29:59 PM
Why should I?

PS. what fat chap?

Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground.

Are you claiming that there's no difference between "next to" and "standing with"?

I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk.

No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle.

"Why should I?

PS. what fat chap?"


In a previous post you said: "Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either."

I thought Altgens 6 gave us a pretty good indication where he was stood at the time of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3qL2j2G/TSBD-crowd-ID-AMolina-BWilliams-CDean-DReese-EShelley-FLovelady-GJones.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I thought you were saying you doubted the guy who is supposed to be Shelley, stood just behind Lovelady, wasn't Shelley at all. I've always thought this guy seems a bit rounder than the very angular Shelley but everyone seems to agree that's who he is. If you do think it's Shelley I'm not sure what you're talking about.

"Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground."

Firstly, it made no difference to the point I was making, nevertheless you're just plain wrong:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L4gzK07Z/TSBD-steps-empty.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Look at the frame holding the glass of the front entrance. On the right-hand side is a strut that runs from top to bottom. If you look at the top picture with people on the steps you can see this strut running down through Molina's arm. A large section of the east wall is visible. IMO 8)

"I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk."

At the time of the shooting?
Wrong

"No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle."

I did read it again. Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was "standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

(https://i.postimg.cc/pV7yxW82/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In this Towner frame we see Lovelady stood to the far right against the wall of the entranceway as the Presidential limo turns towards him. It is at this time he states Stanton was stood next to him:

"At this time (when he was stood to the far right against the wall of the entranceway) I recall that William H Shelley...and Mrs Sarah Stanton...were standing next to me"
What exactly am I missing John?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 02:13:38 AM
Question for Mr James Hackerott!

Mr Hackerott, in this--------------your first sketch based on your viewing of Prayer Man in the Darnell Film at the Sixth Floor Museum---------------you seem to have written the letters 'BL':

(https://i.imgur.com/nKuua7i.jpg)

Do these stand for 'Billy Lovelady'?

Thank you?  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 02:14:49 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/pV7yxW82/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In this Towner frame we see Lovelady stood to the far right against the wall of the entranceway as the Presidential limo turns towards him. It is at this time he states Stanton was stood next to him:

Mr O'Meara doesn't know how to post images. Another thing he has in common with Mr Doyle!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 15, 2020, 02:22:54 AM
Mr O'Meara doesn't know how to post images. Another thing he has in common with Mr Doyle!
My bad.
Hughes frame.
i notice that's all you've picked up on. Shied away from the point being made haven't you.
What a shock.
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 15, 2020, 03:39:38 AM
My bad.
Hughes frame.
i notice that's all you've picked up on. Shied away from the point being made haven't you.
What a shock.

I see images in your post
You have nothing to apologize for.

I use postimages.org as well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NLhnnvFp/post-images-here.png)
1) Upload your image

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHXcFgNM/choose-direct-link.png)
2) Choose Direct Link'.. you'll get rid of the extraneous code

3) Use the image function here

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5wZY3G9/dox2.jpg)
4) Result
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 15, 2020, 06:17:54 AM
Question for Mr James Hackerott!

Mr Hackerott, in this--------------your first sketch based on your viewing of Prayer Man in the Darnell Film at the Sixth Floor Museum---------------you seem to have written the letters 'BL':

(https://i.imgur.com/nKuua7i.jpg)

Do these stand for 'Billy Lovelady'?

Thank you?  Thumb1:
Yes, I believe that is Billy Lovelady at that position. I think that neither Lovelady, or Shelly, are walking down the Elm extension in the Mal Couch clips.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 15, 2020, 07:13:00 AM
I thought you were saying you doubted the guy who is supposed to be Shelley, stood just behind Lovelady, wasn't Shelley at all.

I don’t know why you would think I said that.

Quote
I've always thought this guy seems a bit rounder than the very angular Shelley but everyone seems to agree that's who he is.

You mean the chin and necktie? For what reasons does “everybody” think this must be Shelley?

I’m not sure how that helps us locate Stanton anyway.

Quote
"Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground."

Firstly, it made no difference to the point I was making,

Sure it does, because you’re making the Doyle-esque argument that if you can’t positively identify Stanton on the right side of the entryway in Altgens, then she must be prayer-blob.

Quote
Look at the frame holding the glass of the front entrance. On the right-hand side is a strut that runs from top to bottom. If you look at the top picture with people on the steps you can see this strut running down through Molina's arm. A large section of the east wall is visible. IMO 8)

I’m not sure who you are assuming Molina is either, but I genuinely don’t know where you are seeing the east wall in Altgens.

Quote
"I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk."

At the time of the shooting?
Wrong

No, at the time of the Darnell clip.  You don’t see prayer-blob in Altgens. So what difference does it make if Stanton was “with” Shelley earlier? If Shelley moved then so could prayer-blob, and so could Stanton.

Quote
"No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle."

I did read it again. Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was "standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

Yes, but he didn’t say on what side of him Stanton was. Especially not that she was behind him and even further to the right.

And since Sanders places herself on the east side with Stanton also next to her, that rules out the prayer-blob spot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 11:02:15 AM
Yes, I believe that is Billy Lovelady at that position. I think that neither Lovelady, or Shelly, are walking down the Elm extension in the Mel Couch clips.

Many thanks, Mr Hackerott---------and I agree with you!  Thumb1:

Was there greater detail in the 6FM version of Darnell that strengthened your belief that that this is indeed Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.imgur.com/GDSxDPJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 11:10:01 AM
My bad.
Hughes frame.

Nope, still don't see any image.

Quote
i notice that's all you've picked up on. Shied away from the point being made haven't you.
What a shock.
 8)

The suddenness with which you turned into an overt Doyle tribute act is intriguing, Mr O'Meara.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 15, 2020, 06:50:57 PM
Yes, I believe that is Billy Lovelady at that position. I think that neither Lovelady, or Shelly, are walking down the Elm extension in the Mel Couch clips.

So Lovelady was a burn victim with a giant head
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 15, 2020, 10:02:34 PM
Many thanks, Mr Hackerott---------and I agree with you!  Thumb1:

Was there greater detail in the 6FM version of Darnell that strengthened your belief that that this is indeed Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.imgur.com/GDSxDPJ.jpg)

I doubt the increased clarity would make the ID a 100% certainty. But that was never on my mind while making the sketches. The ID as Lovelady was speculated by others, I believe.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 15, 2020, 10:05:18 PM
So Lovelady was a burn victim with a giant head

Well, a blur victim for sure.  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 01:29:55 AM
Nope, still don't see any image.

The suddenness with which you turned into an overt Doyle tribute act is intriguing, Mr O'Meara.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcVHMP3C/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Have you got your glasses on.

Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 01:32:40 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcVHMP3C/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Have you got your glasses on.

Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

Have you got your glasses on.

To see that picture one would need a microscope.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 02:23:45 AM
Have you got your glasses on.

To see that picture one would need a microscope.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMC8fLhf/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Even my tired old eyes can make this out.
What about yours?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 02:39:15 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMC8fLhf/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Even my tired old eyes can make this out.
What about yours?

I think I'm seeing a person with a red shirt and a white T shirt underneath at the location where Prayerman was supposed to be. However, I'm also seeing a blue car, which I believe could be Kennedy's limo, passing by the stairs.

But my eyes are not as good as the once were, so I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 02:42:42 AM
I think I'm seeing a person with a red shirt and a white T shirt underneath at the location where Prayerman was supposed to be. However, I'm also seeing a blue car, which I believe could be Kennedy's limo, passing by the stairs.

But my eyes are not as good as the once were, so I could be wrong.

So you agree it's Lovelady?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 01:19:09 PM
So you agree it's Lovelady?

I don't agree or disagree. I don't make judgement calls based on blurry pictures.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 16, 2020, 03:39:37 PM
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

Doyle!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 06:43:16 PM
I don't agree or disagree. I don't make judgement calls based on blurry pictures.
It's not a call based on a blurry photo.
There is corroborating photo/video evidence placing Lovelady in that area (Wiegman, Darnell, Altgens) and Lovelady's own testimonial evidence that he was stood at the far right of the entranceway as the motorcade passed by.

Can you make the ID now?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 07:04:47 PM
It's not a call based on a blurry photo.
There is corroborating photo/video evidence placing Lovelady in that area (Wiegman, Darnell, Altgens) and Lovelady's own testimonial evidence that he was stood at the far right of the entranceway as the motorcade passed by.

Can you make the ID now?

No because there is not enough conclusive evidence.

There is sufficient evidence to conclude that Loveday was on or near the stairs to the front door of the TSBD at the time of the shooting but it's not enough to conclude that the person seen in the blurry picture and/or video is him or not.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 16, 2020, 07:07:13 PM
Lovelady's own testimonial evidence that he was stood at the far right of the entranceway as the motorcade passed by.

Mr O'Meara, why have you left out a key part of the quote (just like poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle used to do)?

----------------"standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

Is that what the Hughes frames show?

It's almost as though poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle himself is feeding you your Stanton material!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 08:20:36 PM
Mr O'Meara, why have you left out a key part of the quote (just like poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle used to do)?

----------------"standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

Is that what the Hughes frames show?

It's almost as though poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle himself is feeding you your Stanton material!

 :D
:D :D :D So you do agree that's Lovelady shown on the far right of the entranceway in the Hughes clip.
Lovelady then moves up to the top step in Altgens just seconds later. He is in the same position in the first Wiegman clip before moving down a step or two in the second Wiegman clip then back to his original position in Darnell.
So as the motorcade passes Lovelady moves to the top step. We have photo/video evidence that is the case.
At the time he does this he is saying Stanton is next to him.
It can only refer to the person in the position who you need to believe is Oswald.
It can't refer to anyone else.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xbhkCby/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTfVgFwJ/TSBD-crowd-ID-AMolina-BWilliams-CDean-DReese-EShelley-FLovelady-GJones.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4R9YddW/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxrjmxqT/Shadow-Person-ggod-copy-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Who else can Lovelady be referring to?
And remember, Stanton herself says that as soon as the motorcade passes the front of the building she can no longer see it. We can deduce from Altgens that the only person in such a position must be stood in the corner to Lovelady's right.
 8) 8) 8)

Who else can Lovelady be referring to?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 16, 2020, 10:33:16 PM
:D :D :D So you do agree that's Lovelady shown on the far right of the entranceway in the Hughes clip.
Lovelady then moves up to the top step in Altgens just seconds later.

If your understanding of angles went beyond Doyle levels, Mr O'Meara, you would understand that the Altgens photograph shows Mr Lovelady near the center railing.

Unfortunately, however, your level of understanding is weirdly coincident with the Doyle level of understanding, so you're just making a fool of yourself in exactly the same way Mr Doyle used to do before he was banned!  Thumb1:

Quote
And remember, Stanton herself says that as soon as the motorcade passes the front of the building she can no longer see it.

As did Messrs Molina and (Otis) Williams. But you have already had this pointed out to you and------------in true Doyle style----------ignore what's inconvenient to the crazy Doyle claim that Prayer Man is an obese woman wearing a dark wig in a professional situation.

Quote
We can deduce from Altgens that the only person in such a position must be stood in the corner to Lovelady's right.

Who's 'we' here, Mr O'Meara? You and Mr Doyle?

Look, Mr O'Meara, you played a good game initially, pretending to be interested in the whole Rowland-Williams-chicken thing. But once the word 'Stanton' passed your lips for the first time, you blew it--------------your sad obsession was revealed!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 17, 2020, 01:06:47 AM
If your understanding of angles went beyond Doyle levels, Mr O'Meara, you would understand that the Altgens photograph shows Mr Lovelady near the center railing.

Unfortunately, however, your level of understanding is weirdly coincident with the Doyle level of understanding, so you're just making a fool of yourself in exactly the same way Mr Doyle used to do before he was banned!  Thumb1:

As did Messrs Molina and (Otis) Williams. But you have already had this pointed out to you and------------in true Doyle style----------ignore what's inconvenient to the crazy Doyle claim that Prayer Man is an obese woman wearing a dark wig in a professional situation.

Who's 'we' here, Mr O'Meara? You and Mr Doyle?

Look, Mr O'Meara, you played a good game initially, pretending to be interested in the whole Rowland-Williams-chicken thing. But once the word 'Stanton' passed your lips for the first time, you blew it--------------your sad obsession was revealed!

 :D

As soon as the word 'Stanton' passed my lips your sad obsession was revealed (in truth it's always been there)

I know exactly where Lovelady is stood in Altgens but you seem to be unaware Altgens shows Molina looking at the Presidential limo and the only reason Williams can't see it is because he's looking the other way! Are you familiar with the photo in question?
Neither Williams nor Molina state they can't see the motorcade once it passes the front entrance, this is classic Ford fantasia.

Of the people stood on the top step only Stanton states she can't see the limo once it passes the front of the TSBD.

When Lovelady refers to Stanton he is referring to the object of your obsession, the blurry figure stood near the west corner
Who else could he be referring to Alan? Answer this question. 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2020, 10:40:52 AM
Neither Williams nor Molina state they can't see the motorcade once it passes the front entrance, this is classic Ford fantasia.

:D :D :D

More Doyle-style fabrication from the new Mr Doyle!

---------"Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots." (Mr Joe Molina, 3/25/64)

---------"Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm St embankment I heard three loud blasts." (Mr Otis Williams, 3/19/64)

How many more lies is the new Mr Doyle willing to tell in his Doyle-grade crazy effort to sell Prayer Man as an obese woman wearing a dark wig and smoking a cigarette?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 17, 2020, 07:44:42 PM
:D :D :D

More Doyle-style fabrication from the new Mr Doyle!

---------"Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots." (Mr Joe Molina, 3/25/64)

---------"Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm St embankment I heard three loud blasts." (Mr Otis Williams, 3/19/64)

How many more lies is the new Mr Doyle willing to tell in his Doyle-grade crazy effort to sell Prayer Man as an obese woman wearing a dark wig and smoking a cigarette?

Are you for real?
Neither of these is a statement saying they lost sight of the Presidential limo as soon as it passed the front entrance. William's statement is specifically saying he watched it until it went out of sight over the Elm St embankment! What are you thinking?

Look at the Altgens pic. Use your eyes. Both Molina and Williams can be clearly seen, meaning they have a view of the limo after it has passed the front entrance.
Are you that much of a PM zealot you can't see the obvious?

When Lovelady refers to Stanton he is referring to the object of your obsession, the blurry figure stood near the west corner
Who else could he be referring to Alan? For the third time, answer this question.
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2020, 08:14:21 PM
Are you for real?

Asks the new Mr Doyle, whose gaslighting nonsense is exactly the same as the old Mr Doyle's!  :D

Quote
Neither of these is a statement saying they lost sight of the Presidential limo as soon as it passed the front entrance. William's statement is specifically saying he watched it until it went out of sight over the Elm St embankment!

As usual, the new Mr Doyle leaves out the bit he doesn't like: "I heard three loud blasts"  :D

Quote
Look at the Altgens pic. Use your eyes. Both Molina and Williams can be clearly seen, meaning they have a view of the limo after it has passed the front entrance.

Again, the new Mr Doyle conveniently leaves out the three blasts each man says he heard!

And the new Mr Doyle acts like the Altgens photograph was taken from JFK's limousine!  :D

Now! Ms Stanton: "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time ."

Perhaps the new Mr Doyle can show us where Ms Stanton says why she could not see the President's car while hearing the three shots? As he ponders this question, the new Mr Doyle might find it helpful to look again at the Altgens photograph.

Quote
When Lovelady refers to Stanton he is referring to the object of your obsession, the blurry figure stood near the west corner
Who else could he be referring to Alan?

He could be referring to the person standing next to him in Altgens:

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)

Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:

'Several people saw me. That lady shading her eyes works here on the second floor.'"

Which lady shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph does the new Mr Doyle think Mr Lovelady is pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?

(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 17, 2020, 09:33:39 PM


He could be referring to the person standing next to him in Altgens:

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)



So you're identifying Sarah Stanton as THE MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT SHIELDING HIS EYES!!!
 :D :D :D
Utter quality.

You've obviously fallen off the edge and, unlike the old Mr Doyle, I won't be following you down whatever rabbit-hole your currently inhabiting.
#StantonisMolina
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2020, 10:45:44 PM
So you're identifying Sarah Stanton as THE MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT SHIELDING HIS EYES!!!
 :D :D :D
Utter quality.

You've obviously fallen off the edge and, unlike the old Mr Doyle, I won't be following you down whatever rabbit-hole your currently inhabiting.
#StantonisMolina
 8)

Curiously, the new Mr Doyle is every bit as illogical and ill-informed as the old Mr Doyle!

Mr Lovelady is showing Mr Bonafede in the Altgens photograph a lady shielding her eyes, and stating that she works on the second floor. So the new Mr Doyle should have no trouble finding this lady-from-the-second-floor-shielding-her-eyes in said Altgens photograph. After all, Mr Lovelady seems to have no trouble in doing so!

Embarrassed at not yet being able to find this lady in Altgens, the new Mr Doyle tells us with the old Doyle-esque certainty that the person shielding their eyes (marked by the green arrow) is a "MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT":

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)

How does the new Mr Doyle know this? Answer: He doesn't, he's just offering another Doyle-style 'Because I Say So!' claim...

Now! Mr Bill Shelley stated clearly that he is standing next to Mr Lovelady but is not visible in the Altgens photograph:

(https://i.imgur.com/3ROn4Tz.jpg)

This means that Mr Shelley must be just to Mr Lovelady's west.

From the elimination of Mr Shelley as one of the white men seen in Altgens we can conclude that the two white gentlemen (apart from Mr Lovelady) Altgens does show in the doorway are Mr Joe Molina (red arrow) and Mr Otis Williams (blue arrow)----------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ef2oeD5.jpg)

This further means that the person marked with green arrow-----------the person the new Mr Doyle assures us is a "MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT"-----------must in fact be a woman. If she is the woman from the second floor whom Mr Lovelady is recognizing, then she must be either Ms Pauline Sanders or Ms Sarah Stanton. Given his repeated recollection of Ms Stanton's presence in statements and testimony, she is by far the likelier candidate.

This would solve the new Mr Doyle's contrived little problem of Mr Lovelady's statement that Mr Shelley and Ms Stanton were next to him.

And it would leave the new Mr Doyle back at square one-------------as excruciatingly unable as everyone else on Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps to find a credible non-Oswaldian candidate for Prayer Man.  :D

If the new Mr Doyle disagrees with the above analysis, he is free to tell us which lady from the second floor shielding her eyes is Mr Lovelady pointing out to Mr Bonafede!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2020, 02:48:14 PM
Friends, I had previously discounted the possibility that this could be Ms Stanton----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)

----------------because the forearms didn't look thick enough.

However! Looking again at the photograph we have of Ms Stanton, I noticed that the upper arms are very thick but the forearms not nearly so much------------

(https://i.imgur.com/rc3dSSG.jpg)

Something else worth bearing in mind:

Mr Lovelady, before ever seeing the Altgens photograph, only named one other person there on the steps:

"When the Pres. came by Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps..." (Affidavit, 11/22/63).

However, we know that one thing he was to notice in the Altgens photograph was the second-floor lady shielding her eyes. This must have triggered his recollection and prompted him to mention Ms Stanton as well as Mr Shelley in subsequent statements about who had been there with him / next to him on the steps. Because that was exactly what the Altgens photograph was showing him.

Possibly Significant Sidenote! Mr Lovelady mistakenly thinks that the Altgens photograph is showing him way over by the west wall of the entranceway, when we know he is actually near the center railing!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2020, 04:19:31 PM
As veterans of this Establishment will know, I sometimes find it useful to take an image we have all been staring at for years and defamiliarize it by giving it a horizontal flip. Striking details hitherto missed by our tired eyes can leap out!

Here's one such image-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/EO39Qr8.jpg)

-------------------and here it is flipped-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ziHkdav.jpg)

QUESTION!

Is Prayer Man slouching against the wall?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 19, 2020, 12:54:34 AM
Mr Lovelady, before ever seeing the Altgens photograph, only named one other person there on the steps:

"When the Pres. came by Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps..." (Affidavit, 11/22/63).

However, we know that one thing he was to notice in the Altgens photograph was the second-floor lady shielding her eyes. This must have triggered his recollection and prompted him to mention Ms Stanton as well as Mr Shelley in subsequent statements about who had been there with him / next to him on the steps. Because that was exactly what the Altgens photograph was showing him.

From Mr Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.


Again, Mr Lovelady is here working not so much off personal memory as off the Altgens photograph he has been quizzed about for months now.

Only for Mr Ball's (nervous?) interruption, he would finish his thought: and right behind me, Joe Molina. Because that's exactly what the Altgens photograph is showing him!

(https://i.imgur.com/Wd1RIBm.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 19, 2020, 01:11:43 AM
Now!

From Motorcycle Officer Marion L. Baker's WC testimony:

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


QUESTION!

Who on earth were the two white men seen on the first floor by Officer Baker?

I'll kick off with a double speculation-----------

1. Mr Jack Dougherty
2. Mr Bill Shelley

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 19, 2020, 04:14:17 PM

Lee claimed that he went outside to watch the parade. There is a guy who looks him on the front steps in two different films. Quite a coincidence.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 07:53:33 PM
Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

False.  You're the one who's equating "next to" to mean "to the right".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 07:55:59 PM
It's almost as though poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle himself is feeding you your Stanton material!

Keep in mind that this is the guy who finds Tommy Graves' squint fests to be "highly compelling".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
I know exactly where Lovelady is stood in Altgens but you seem to be unaware Altgens shows Molina looking at the Presidential limo and the only reason Williams can't see it is because he's looking the other way!

This just keeps getting better!  Not only do you know exactly who could see what (or not) better than they do, but you also know the reasons why.  Where is Otis Williams in Altgens and how do you know where he's looking?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Now! Ms Stanton: "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time ."

Perhaps the new Mr Doyle can show us where Ms Stanton says why she could not see the President's car while hearing the three shots? As he ponders this question, the new Mr Doyle might find it helpful to look again at the Altgens photograph.

Besides that, if she heard 3 shots after the President's car passed the front of the building, then where does that place the timing of the first shot?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 08:09:30 PM
So you're identifying Sarah Stanton as THE MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT SHIELDING HIS EYES!!!

I'll bite.  How do you know that's a man?  Or Molina?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 19, 2020, 08:47:43 PM
The person shielding his eyes is wearing a tie. How many women wore ties in 1963?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 09:07:03 PM
The person shielding his eyes is wearing a tie. How many women wore ties in 1963?

Where?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 19, 2020, 09:40:32 PM
False.  You're the one who's equating "next to" to mean "to the right".
Wrong. I'm equating "next to" as in "close proximity to"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 19, 2020, 09:50:45 PM
Where?
:D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 19, 2020, 09:58:06 PM
This just keeps getting better!  Not only do you know exactly who could see what (or not) better than they do, but you also know the reasons why.  Where is Otis Williams in Altgens and how do you know where he's looking?
As usual, the twisting manipulation of words. I've actually kind of missed it.
I'm clearly talking about the direction in which people are looking, not what they can see.
I "also know the reasons why"?? You're usual garbage.

Where is Otis Williams?
At the time the motorcade passed the TSBD Williams "was standing on the top step against the railing" [3/19/64]
At the time of the assassination Williams was 64 and looked like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR3d05SX/williams-otis.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Note the swept back hair, grey at the sides, darker on top and the glasses with thick, black arms.
So we're looking for an elderly gent who looks like the photo on the top step next to the railing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/15TmTKDL/Williams-Otis-TSBD-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
To help you out he's been circled in red. Can you see which way he's looking or do you need help with that?
From the camera's point of view he's stood just in front of the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D), as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 11:49:18 PM
Wrong. I'm equating "next to" as in "close proximity to"

Well then your claim that "a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way" is just flat out false.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 19, 2020, 11:57:09 PM
the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D), as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day

 :D

(https://i.imgur.com/88xiddi.jpg)

Not since the sad, bad and mad old days of the first Mr Doyle have we seen such an out-of-control fantasist on this forum. Next this guy will be telling us he can see buttons on this 'MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT'!  :D

Of course, the reason the new Mr Doyle is resorting to this Doyle-style gaslighting nonsense is his intense frustration and embarrassment at not being able to

-----------get around Mr Shelley's own statement about his non-visibility in Altgens
-----------get around Mr Lovelady's statement about the lady from the second floor shielding her eyes in Altgens
-----------explain away the statements of Messrs Joe Molina and Otis Williams about the limousine disappearing from view
-----------offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 19, 2020, 11:59:34 PM
Well then your claim that "a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way" is just flat out false.
Lovelady puts himself over by the far right wall of the entranceway and has Stanton in close proximity to himself. How is it false?
And no thanks for pointing out Williams for you. Typical  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 12:00:15 AM
The person shielding his eyes is wearing a tie. How many women wore ties in 1963?

You see a tie on this person, Mr Mitcham? Really?

(https://i.imgur.com/BNJukb3.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2020, 12:07:42 AM
As usual, the twisting manipulation of words. I've actually kind of missed it.
I'm clearly talking about the direction in which people are looking, not what they can see.
I "also know the reasons why"?? You're usual garbage.

That's what you indicated.  You somehow know that "Altgens shows Molina looking at the Presidential limo" and that "the only reason Williams can't see it is because he's looking the other way".  Then you claim that Stanton was blocked from seeing the limo after it passed because of where she was standing (even though she never said that).  Your mindreading skills are almost as fancy as Doyle's.

Quote
To help you out he's been circled in red. Can you see which way he's looking or do you need help with that?

Again with the condescension substituting for evidence.  I have not missed that.  You're using the patented Graves technique of deciding who you think an indistinct blob is, and then stating it as a fact.  Maybe you could start by pointing out where you even see a face in that mess, much less Otis Williams looking in a certain direction.

Quote
From the camera's point of view he's stood just in front of the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D),

I haven't identified anyone as Sarah Stanton. 

Quote
as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day
 8)

"white shirt and black trousers".  "obese arms". "elderly gent".  "plaid skirt". LOL.  Other than your fertile imagination, tell me how you know what colors Williams or Stanton were even wearing that day?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2020, 12:11:05 AM
Lovelady puts himself over by the far right wall of the entranceway and has Stanton in close proximity to himself. How is it false?

Because you're assuming without evidence that she was between Lovelady and the wall.  Otherwise she wouldn't be "over by the far right wall".

Quote
And no thanks for pointing out Williams for you. Typical  ;)

Thanks for circling a blob and naming it?  No thanks.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 12:14:28 AM
Lee claimed that he went outside to watch the parade. There is a guy who looks him on the front steps in two different films. Quite a coincidence.

Fred

Quite right, Mr Clements!  Thumb1:

Also!

Mr Oswald claimed he had an encounter with an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance right after the shooting; the DPD told the press 11/22/63 that Mr Oswald had an encounter with an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance right after the shooting. Quite a coincidence!

Mr Oswald claimed he visited the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade's arrival; Ms Carolyn Arnold recalled seeing Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade's arrival. Quite a coincidence!

Back in 2013, the Prayer Man people, after close study of the interrogation reports, deduced that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone to the second-floor lunchroom for a Coca-Cola before the motorcade, gone back down to the first floor and then gone out to see the motorcade; in 2019 the Hosty draft report came to light stating in the clearest English that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone to the second-floor lunchroom for a Coca-Cola before the motorcade, gone back down to the first floor and then gone "out to watch P. parade". Quite a confirmation!

No one has yet been able to offer an innocent explanation for the impossible 'shadow' running down Mr Billy Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film. Quite a quandary!

After 7 years of trying, Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps still cannot offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Quite a calamity!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 20, 2020, 10:06:18 AM

Good points, Mr Ford. Also it is mentioned on other sites that Oswald's own wife Marina identified the person on the steps as her late husband. Sometime in 2018.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 20, 2020, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from Mr Ford, You see a tie on this person Mr Mitcham, really?"

Yep shown in red, and arrowed.
https://i.postimg.cc/zBsGGm8W/doorway2.jpg

(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 02:07:51 PM
Quote from Mr Ford, You see a tie on this person Mr Mitcham, really?"

Yep shown in red, and arrowed.
https://i.postimg.cc/zBsGGm8W/doorway2.jpg

(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)

Link not working for me, Mr Mitcham! Could you please re-post?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 20, 2020, 05:42:16 PM
Link not working for me, Mr Mitcham! Could you please re-post?

(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2020, 06:30:07 PM
Quote from Mr Ford, You see a tie on this person Mr Mitcham, really?"

Yep shown in red, and arrowed.

What, is he standing diagonally?   :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 06:50:40 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)

Am still not seeing an image, Mr Mitcham. It may be a firewall issue for me, in which case I apologize!

Can you help me out here? Are you actually claiming to see a tie on the individual standing directly under the arrow here? I.e. the individual with two hands shielding their eyes, as opposed to the individual lower down shielding his eyes with one hand (and the other hand across his chest)??

(https://i.imgur.com/3xvIAA0.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 21, 2020, 08:50:06 AM
Am still not seeing an image, Mr Mitcham. It may be a firewall issue for me, in which case I apologize!

Can you help me out here? Are you actually claiming to see a tie on the individual standing directly under the arrow here? I.e. the individual with two hands shielding their eyes, as opposed to the individual lower down shielding his eyes with one hand (and the other hand across his chest)??

(https://i.imgur.com/3xvIAA0.jpg)

 Thumb1:

The lower one. with his left hand across his chest. However, the one with two hands shielding his eyes has the upper torso shape of a guy not a woman.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 21, 2020, 11:01:30 AM
The lower one. with his left hand across his chest. However, the one with two hands shielding his eyes has the upper torso shape of a guy not a woman.

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/ (http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/)

This guy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 21, 2020, 11:31:08 AM
The lower one. with his left hand across his chest. However, the one with two hands shielding his eyes has the upper torso shape of a guy not a woman.

Thanks for clarifying, Mr Mitcham!  Thumb1:

So------------no tie visible on the person I marked with a green arrow, i.e. the person we were talking about in the first place.

If you think that person--------the one with two hands shielding their eyes---------is a man, which man do you think it could possibly be?

Remember: Mr Shelley has told us he's not in the photograph. Which leaves you with three men visible but only two men (Messrs Molina and Williams) to identify them with...

(https://i.imgur.com/2ZGW5sr.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 21, 2020, 02:28:12 PM
As usual, the twisting manipulation of words. I've actually kind of missed it.
I'm clearly talking about the direction in which people are looking, not what they can see.
I "also know the reasons why"?? You're usual garbage.

Where is Otis Williams?
At the time the motorcade passed the TSBD Williams "was standing on the top step against the railing" [3/19/64]
At the time of the assassination Williams was 64 and looked like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR3d05SX/williams-otis.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Note the swept back hair, grey at the sides, darker on top and the glasses with thick, black arms.
So we're looking for an elderly gent who looks like the photo on the top step next to the railing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/15TmTKDL/Williams-Otis-TSBD-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
To help you out he's been circled in red. Can you see which way he's looking or do you need help with that?
From the camera's point of view he's stood just in front of the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D), as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day
 8)

Hopefully, for the sake of his wife, Otis 'Big Pants' Williams belt line didn't reach his armpits before she passed away.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 21, 2020, 09:35:47 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Mr Mitcham!  Thumb1:

So------------no tie visible on the person I marked with a green arrow, i.e. the person we were talking about in the first place.

If you think that person--------the one with two hands shielding their eyes---------is a man, which man do you think it could possibly be?

Remember: Mr Shelley has told us he's not in the photograph. Which leaves you with three men visible but only two men (Messrs Molina and Williams) to identify them with...

(https://i.imgur.com/2ZGW5sr.jpg)
Apologies if you were discussing the green arrowed man as you said the one shielding his eyes. As far as the green arrow man, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a man, but which one I don't know.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 21, 2020, 09:48:02 PM
Apologies if you were discussing the green arrowed man as you said the one shielding his eyes.

Crossed lines of communication, Mr Mitcham, no harm done!  Thumb1:

Quote
As far as the green arrow man, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a man, but which one I don't know.

So who's the woman from the second floor shielding her eyes whom Mr Lovelady pointed out in Altgens to Mr Dom Bonafede?

And how can two white men (Messrs Molina and Williams) explain what you are saying is three white men (other than Mr Lovelady) seen in the doorway in Altgens?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 22, 2020, 01:47:27 AM
Crossed lines of communication, Mr Mitcham, no harm done!  Thumb1:

So who's the woman from the second floor shielding her eyes whom Mr Lovelady pointed out in Altgens to Mr Dom Bonafede?

And how can two white men (Messrs Molina and Williams) explain what you are saying is three white men (other than Mr Lovelady) seen in the doorway in Altgens?

Sorry Alan, I haven’t been following this thread closely enough. Could you point to the evidence why Shelley cannot be one of the three? I saw you said he claimed not to be in Altgens.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 22, 2020, 01:54:28 AM
Sorry Alan, I haven’t been following this thread closely enough. Could you point to the evidence why Shelley cannot be one of the three? I saw you said he claimed not to be in Altgens.

Of course, Mr Crow!

(https://i.imgur.com/3ROn4Tz.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 22, 2020, 02:25:22 AM
Sorry Alan, I haven’t been following this thread closely enough. Could you point to the evidence why Shelley cannot be one of the three? I saw you said he claimed not to be in Altgens.
As I'm sure you know, Shelley is the most "witnessed" person on the TSBD steps around the time of the assassination and places himself  " Just outside the glass doors there.", as seen in Altgens 6.
This is the picture he was shown from "Four Dark Days in History":

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvsg2hT0/Altgens-in-4-dark-days.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He confirms he was stood next to Lovelady at the time but is there any real mystery as to why he couldn't ID himself in the picture?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 22, 2020, 11:50:39 AM
As I'm sure you know, Shelley is the most "witnessed" person on the TSBD steps around the time of the assassination and places himself  " Just outside the glass doors there.", as seen in Altgens 6.
This is the picture he was shown from "Four Dark Days in History":

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvsg2hT0/Altgens-in-4-dark-days.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He confirms he was stood next to Lovelady at the time but is there any real mystery as to why he couldn't ID himself in the picture?

 ::)

No, there is no mystery whatsoever: Mr Shelley knows where he was standing in relation to Mr Lovelady--------west of him--------and that's how he knows he was not in view of the camera.

If he had been standing where you------------in your desperate Doylesque effort to magic him into Mr Molina so you can magic Ms Stanton into Prayer Man--------------think you see him in Altgens, he would not be stating categorically that he was not in view of the camera.

Here's where Mr Frazier places Mr Shelley in his WC testimony: "standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there". And before you throw more nonsense at us by suggesting Mr Frazier might mean the east wall, he makes it clear he means the same wall Mr Lovelady was nearest to.

Here's what Mr Shelley himself says, in the March 64 document you love cherry-picking quotes from, about Mr Lovelady's position in relation to him: "seated on the entrance steps just in front of me". This, again, places Mr Shelley unequivocally on the west side of the entranceway. Whereas your Shelley-in-Altgens is on the east side. (So... you have transposed Ms Stanton from east to west and Mr Shelley from west to east. A classic double Doyle maneuver!)

Furthermore! Mr Lovelady-----------who, like Mr Shelley-----------will have seen the Altgens photograph many times by Jan 64, and who was very soon after the assassination shown an FBI blow-up of it, never once indicates that he can see, or thinks he can see, Mr Shelley in the photograph. He only mentions the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor. Again, the simple reason is: he, like Mr Shelley, knows that Mr Shelley is not in view of the camera.

Again I challenge you: show us the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor you think Mr Lovelady means!

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 22, 2020, 02:48:38 PM
:

So who's the woman from the second floor shielding her eyes whom Mr Lovelady pointed out in Altgens to Mr Dom Bonafede?



Who is this woman shielding her eyes?
https://i.postimg.cc/PrQ9GG5C/Doorway3.png (Yellow arrow)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 22, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
Who is this woman shielding her eyes?
https://i.postimg.cc/PrQ9GG5C/Doorway3.png (Yellow arrow)

Mr Mitcham, I'm darned if I can work out why I'm not seeing your images. :'( My apologies again!

If you are indicating this woman----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/XRPjs73.jpg)

----------------then that's Ms Madeleine Reese, who worked on the third floor so cannot be the woman Mr Lovelady means.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 23, 2020, 10:53:23 AM
Mr Mitcham, I'm darned if I can work out why I'm not seeing your images. :'( My apologies again!

If you are indicating this woman----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/XRPjs73.jpg)

----------------then that's Ms Madeleine Reese, who worked on the third floor so cannot be the woman Mr Lovelady means.

 Thumb1:

Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 23, 2020, 11:27:54 AM
Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?

All good here Ray.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 23, 2020, 12:36:00 PM
All good here Ray.  Thumb1:

Thanks for the reply, Colin.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 01:28:54 PM
::)

No, there is no mystery whatsoever: Mr Shelley knows where he was standing in relation to Mr Lovelady--------west of him--------and that's how he knows he was not in view of the camera.

As usual you have completely made something up out of thin air and presented it as a fact. Nowhere does Shelley state that he is stood west of Lovelady. If you have a quote for this please supply it. If you any quote that specifically puts Shelley to the right /west of Lovelady please provide it. 

Quote

If he had been standing where you------------in your desperate Doylesque effort to magic him into Mr Molina so you can magic Ms Stanton into Prayer Man--------------think you see him in Altgens, he would not be stating categorically that he was not in view of the camera.


Once again I'm having to deal with something you've completely made up. Show where I have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway (Shelley) is Joe Molina. Joe Molina is the man in the white shirt, stood on the top landing/step, with both his arms raised as he shields his eyes. The same man you insist is Sarah Stanton (this will go down as the worst piece of analysis in the history of JFK research and is genuinely embarrassing).
Just to be clear where I stand on the Altgens 6 picture - the man nearest the glass door wearing a dark suit and tie whose face is half in shadow is Bill Shelley. The man stood to his right wearing the white shirt with both arms raised shielding his eyes is Joe Molina. The man stood one step below, slightly to Molina's right, is Otis Williams. Billy Lovelady, as I'm sure even you would agree, is the man stood to the left of these three men as we look at the pic.
Sarah Stanton is not shown in this picture.

Quote

Here's where Mr Frazier places Mr Shelley in his WC testimony: "standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there". And before you throw more nonsense at us by suggesting Mr Frazier might mean the east wall, he makes it clear he means the same wall Mr Lovelady was nearest to.


The problem with Frazier's testimony is that it's not true:

Mr. BALL - You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL - About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?
Mr. FRAZIER - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER - O.K.
Mr. BALL - In the picture that would show you about there, would it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, was standing right in there.
Mr. BALL - Right in there?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.
Mr. BALL - There was a roof over your head, was there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Frazier places himself one step down and next to the central railing. He states he was stood there 'until the parade came by'. We know from Altgens this is not true. Frazier is not seen in the Wiegman film either. He shows up about 30 seconds after the assassination in Darnell (it's possible he stood there before the motorcade passed but I've not seen evidence for this). We have photographic/video evidence that Frazier's testimony concerning the time of the assassination is unreliable.

Quote

Here's what Mr Shelley himself says, in the March 64 document you love cherry-picking quotes from, about Mr Lovelady's position in relation to him: "seated on the entrance steps just in front of me". This, again, places Mr Shelley unequivocally on the west side of the entranceway. Whereas your Shelley-in-Altgens is on the east side. (So... you have transposed Ms Stanton from east to west and Mr Shelley from west to east. A classic double Doyle maneuver!)


Utter made-up nonsense yet again. Shelley states he is stood just outside the glass door. This is a central position, neither east nor west. If Lovelady is sat in front of him please explain how this 'unequivovally' places Shelley on the west side. If this is something you've just made up don't bother explaining.

Quote

Furthermore! Mr Lovelady-----------who, like Mr Shelley-----------will have seen the Altgens photograph many times by Jan 64, and who was very soon after the assassination shown an FBI blow-up of it, never once indicates that he can see, or thinks he can see, Mr Shelley in the photograph. He only mentions the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor. Again, the simple reason is: he, like Mr Shelley, knows that Mr Shelley is not in view of the camera.


Please provide the quote where Lovelady is asked whether Shelley is in Altgens 6. Is he ever asked about it?

Quote

Again I challenge you: show us the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor you think Mr Lovelady means!


The only 'lady shielding her eyes' on the TSBD steps in the Altgens pic has already identified. Maddie Reese. Lovelady has made a mistake placing her on the second floor when she works on the third. He obviously doesn't know her that well, he never refers to her by name and she never refers to him. It's a simple mistake. Maddie Reese is the only female TSBD employee on the steps shielding her eyes in Altgens. You must drop this thing about identifying Joe Molina as Sarah Stanton, it' really embarrassing.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 01:32:46 PM
Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?

Hi Ray, just to let you know I've had no problem opening your links.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 05:04:11 PM
Boy oh boy, there you go again...

As usual you have completely made something up out of thin air and presented it as a fact. Nowhere does Shelley state that he is stood west of Lovelady. If you have a quote for this please supply it. If you any quote that specifically puts Shelley to the right /west of Lovelady please provide it.

Already done----------but, just like the old Mr Doyle, you don't like inconvenient facts that get in the way of your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation.

Mr Shelley says he is not in view of the camera. The man you are saying is Mr Shelley is in view of the camera. Therefore the man you are saying is Mr Shelley is not Mr Shelley.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Quote
Once again I'm having to deal with something you've completely made up. Show where I have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway (Shelley) is Joe Molina.

Sure---------as soon as you show where I have argued that you have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway is Mr Molina.

You're mistaking Mr Molina for Mr Shelley because you need Mr Molina to be Mr Shelley in order to keep alive your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Quote
Utter made-up nonsense yet again. Shelley states he is stood just outside the glass door.

Naughty naughty!

March 18 FBI statement: "I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance"

WC testimony: Mr. BALL - You were standing where? / Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.

 :D

Compare Mr Molina (WC testimony):

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.


Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Quote
This is a central position, neither east nor west. If Lovelady is sat in front of him please explain how this 'unequivovally' places Shelley on the west side.

The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Quote
Please provide the quote where Lovelady is asked whether Shelley is in Altgens 6. Is he ever asked about it?

Mr Shelley himself was asked about it, and he gave a clear answer: I was not in view of the camera. You don't like his answer because it ruins your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation? Not my problem!

As for Mr Lovelady, he points out the lady working on the second floor because (as he states) she can vouch for his presence on the steps. You think if he could see Mr Shelley-----------whom he otherwise mentions every time he talks about who was with him on the steps-----------in the photograph he would fail to mention that fact?

Of course you do, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Quote
The only 'lady shielding her eyes' on the TSBD steps in the Altgens pic has already identified. Maddie Reese. Lovelady has made a mistake placing her on the second floor when she works on the third. He obviously doesn't know her that well, he never refers to her by name and she never refers to him. It's a simple mistake. Maddie Reese is the only female TSBD employee on the steps shielding her eyes in Altgens. You must drop this thing about identifying Joe Molina as Sarah Stanton, it' really embarrassing.

What's embarrassing is that you can't find the woman from the second floor whom Mr Lovelady can see in the Altgens photograph. All you can do is reject what he is saying on entirely makey-uppey grounds because it doesn't fit your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation. 

Keep up your groundbreaking work! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 06:49:00 PM

The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!


According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was on the top step 'to the far right against the wall of the entranceway' and that at that time Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton were stood with him.

It's really nice of you to make my arguments for me but I can manage without your help. You have just placed Sarah Stanton on the west side of the entranceway. Looking forward to see what you make up to get out of this one.

 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 10:19:30 PM
According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was on the top step 'to the far right against the wall of the entranceway' and that at that time Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton were stood with him.

Another post from you that is positively Doyle-esque in its shameless dishonesty and reality denial!  :D

Mr Lovelady sees Ms Stanton standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, and accordingly names her (along with Mr Shelley) as having been standing next to him. Not complicated!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Another post from you that is positively Doyle-esque in its shameless dishonesty and reality denial!  :D

Mr Lovelady sees Ms Stanton standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, and accordingly names her (along with Mr Shelley) as having been standing next to him. Not complicated!
More Fantasia Ford. Talking about the Hughes film then changing it to Altgens when it suits!
Not complicated when you can float around in a world where fact and fantasy are so interchangeable.
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 10:35:00 PM
More Fantasia Ford. Talking about the Hughes film then changing it to Altgens when it suits!
Not complicated when you can float around in a world where fact and fantasy are so interchangeable.
 8)

 :D

(https://i.imgur.com/o7ykLgu.jpg)

Ms Madeleine Reese did not work on the second floor. Therefore Mr Lovelady must mean the person standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, whom it is logical to identify as Ms Stanton-----------a lady who did work on the second floor and who will just so happen to a) mention Mr Lovelady in her March 64 FBI interview; b) be the lady Mr Lovelady will tell the FBI was "standing next to me".

Thanks for playing-------------better luck next time!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 10:50:13 PM
:D

(https://i.imgur.com/o7ykLgu.jpg)

Ms Madeleine Reese did not work on the second floor. Therefore Mr Lovelady must mean the person standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, whom it is logical to identify as Ms Stanton-----------a lady who did work on the second floor and who will just so happen to a) mention Mr Lovelady in her March 64 FBI interview; b) be the lady Mr Lovelady will tell the FBI was "standing next to me".

Thanks for playing-------------better luck next time!

 ;D ;D
So you're just going into denial about placing Stanton by the west wall.
If, as you insist, Shelley is west of Lovelady where is he in this photo?
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvCG6NT7/Wiegman-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 11:23:15 PM
;D ;D
So you're just going into denial about placing Stanton by the west wall.

No, I'm not in denial about your demented, evidence-denying placement of Ms Stanton by the west wall.

Quote
If, as you insist, Shelley is west of Lovelady where is he in this photo?
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvCG6NT7/Wiegman-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Here he is:

(https://i.imgur.com/K1D3MIn.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 11:45:15 PM
You are Mr Buell Wesley Frazier. It is November 2013, just days away from the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination. Less than two months ago, Mr Gary Mack contacted you to ask you about a mysterious figure standing in the shadows of the front entrance. Having looked at the film still, you told him you couldn't identify said figure. Now, as part of an interview feature for the Richmond Virginia Times, you allow yourself to be photographed standing right by the spot where that mysterious figure was standing and pointing your left index figure at that exact spot...

(https://i.imgur.com/Ru6w4nM.jpg)

EITHER you are extraordinarily dumb and/or forgetful OR you know exactly what you are doing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 24, 2020, 12:26:10 AM
No, I'm not in denial about your demented, evidence-denying placement of Ms Stanton by the west wall.

Here he is:

(https://i.imgur.com/K1D3MIn.jpg)

 Thumb1:

So you finally reveal how devious you're willing to be when cornered. Using a single, shaky frame from Wiegman to try and demonstrate there's someone stood behind Lovelady.
Really pathetic.
I think we're done here  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 01:34:41 AM
So you finally reveal how devious you're willing to be when cornered. Using a single, shaky frame from Wiegman to try and demonstrate there's someone stood behind Lovelady.
Really pathetic.
I think we're done here  Thumb1:

 :D

My, you really are as sore a loser as the old Mr Doyle!

Consecutive Wiegman frames:

(https://i.imgur.com/BUZfJBE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rf8N0DA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3GbMtRy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1aBzH6F.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NdifkuG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zNxEytI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yYfuvXx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/n2244V4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nb00dIP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9G8M44o.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3APFzdE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UznX6uh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EHzhSM2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2O6KTPg.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 09:21:09 PM
Red arrow: fabric ------------------------- Purple arrow: skin

(https://i.imgur.com/z5fmlGM.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 10:08:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/tG9lH1m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3uT8ICn.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 10:12:35 PM
Blue arrows: TIE (denoting male white-collar worker)

Pink arrow: NO TIE!

(https://i.imgur.com/eQtMOMJ.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hunnicutt on August 24, 2020, 11:35:24 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcVHMP3C/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Have you got your glasses on.

Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

"Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way"

Which witness and where were they standing?

If this witness was in front of or across the street from the TSBD and they are looking at the TSBD from the street, sure, Stanton to them was at far right of wall of the entrance way, or, furthest away from Oswald.

Stanton also stated she didn't see Oswald.

Just because she didn't see him doesn't mean he wasn't there.

It only means, well, she didn't see him. Entertain me, why do you suppose she couldn't see him?

Opposite directions on the steps per chance?

Any other questions on this long de-bunked Stanton Doyle induced Garbagola?

Let's try to keep this place cleaned up, they just got rid of one crazy clown here in Doyle, and here you ride on in to fill the void.

Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 25, 2020, 12:04:33 AM
"Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way"

Which witness and where were they standing?

If this witness was in front of or across the street from the TSBD and they are looking at the TSBD from the street, sure, Stanton to them was at far right of wall of the entrance way, or, furthest away from Oswald.

Stanton also stated she didn't see Oswald.

Just because she didn't see him doesn't mean he wasn't there.

It only means, well, she didn't see him. Entertain me, why do you suppose she couldn't see him?

Opposite directions on the steps per chance?

Any other questions on this long de-bunked Stanton Doyle induced Garbagola?

Let's try to keep this place cleaned up, they just got rid of one crazy clown here in Doyle, and here you ride on in to fill the void.

Unbelievable.

Read from Reply #332. Get up to speed. Ask an informed question.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 25, 2020, 06:03:23 AM
According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Bull. As I pointed out at least three times already, all Lovelady said was that Stanton and Shelley were standing next to him. He didn’t say in what direction.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 25, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Bull. As I pointed out at least three times already, all Lovelady said was that Stanton and Shelley were standing next to him. He didn’t say in what direction.

Alan said:
 "The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway."

You don't have a problem with this (of course) and what I said was a response to this.
What are you talking about anyway? Who is saying 'what direction'? What does this mean?
Lovelady is saying he is stood over by the west wall and that Stanton is in close proximity to him. What has 'direction' got to do with it?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 25, 2020, 11:43:41 AM
Alan said:
 "The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway."

You don't have a problem with this (of course) and what I said was a response to this.
What are you talking about anyway? Who is saying 'what direction'? What does this mean?
Lovelady is saying he is stood over by the west wall and that Stanton is in close proximity to him. What has 'direction' got to do with it?

 :D

Looks like the new Mr Doyle is going to have to keep looking for that hitherto elusive dictionary that defines 'next to' as 'to the right rather than to the left of'!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 26, 2020, 08:43:15 PM
Alan said:
 "The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway."

You don't have a problem with this (of course) and what I said was a response to this.
What are you talking about anyway? Who is saying 'what direction'? What does this mean?
Lovelady is saying he is stood over by the west wall and that Stanton is in close proximity to him. What has 'direction' got to do with it?

Because you (and Doyle) keep trying to use this to "show" that Stanton must therefore have been "over by the west column of the entranceway".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 26, 2020, 10:05:42 PM
Because you (and Doyle) keep trying to use this to "show" that Stanton must therefore have been "over by the west column of the entranceway".

So when Alan states:"The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.", you don't have a problem with this at all. But when I point out that Lovelady places both Shelley and Stanton with him you suddenly have a problem.
This is no surprise. When Mr Ford made his utterly ludicrous identification of Sarah Stanton as Joe Molina you actually supported it. When the same Mr Ford uses a shaky Wiegman frame to fraudulently attempt to show Shelley was west of Lovelady at the time of the assassination, you have nothing to say.

Are you a Prayer Man advocate? If not, what is the problem you have with proposing Stanton as the person stood in the shadows?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 26, 2020, 10:22:19 PM
So when Alan states:"The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.", you don't have a problem with this at all. But when I point out that Lovelady places both Shelley and Stanton with him you suddenly have a problem.

My problem is that "with" and "next to" don't mean what you want them to mean.  Nobody disagrees that Lovelady said he was standing with Shelley and Stanton. 

Quote
This is no surprise. When Mr Ford made his utterly ludicrous identification of Sarah Stanton as Joe Molina you actually supported it.

I did?  When?  And why is this more utterly ludicrous than your "smoking fat lady"?  And how you identified both Shelley and Molina remains a mystery.  Kinda like how you identified Calvery.

Quote
Are you a Prayer Man advocate? If not, what is the problem you have with proposing Stanton as the person stood in the shadows?

Because there's no evidence that this is Stanton.  "Lovelady said Stanton was next to him" ain't it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2020, 10:25:20 PM
When the same Mr Ford uses a shaky Wiegman frame to fraudulently attempt to show Shelley was west of Lovelady at the time of the assassination, you have nothing to say.

 :D

Ain't it funny how the old Doyle pattern of blatantly misrepresenting others' posts surfaces again in the posts of the new Doyle? It's almost like they're one and the same guy!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 29, 2020, 11:31:33 PM
Prayer Man in the Weaver photograph (taken as JFK is just turning on to Houston St)?

(https://i.imgur.com/aFwL1Pq.jpg)

A few seconds later, and Mr Lovelady has risen to his feet to see the limousine--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/YO1Tdd5.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 03, 2020, 11:00:06 AM
There is photo of the bottle a front steps that indicates it’s a Dr.Pepper bottle, one with large white oval emblem on it typical of 1963 era Dr. Pepper bottles
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 04, 2020, 09:01:35 PM
In his book The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), Dr. David Wrone makes a convincing case that Oswald, not Bill Lovelady, is the man seen standing in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo. Until very recently, I made the mistake of accepting the HSCA PEP's identification of the man as Lovelady. I should have known better. In fact, again until very recently, I always viewed the attempts to identify the man as Oswald as amateurish and embarrassing to the multiple-gunmen position.

When I recently bought Wrone's book and saw that it had a chapter on the man in the doorway (chapter 11), I assumed that Wrone identified the man as Lovelady. As I read the chapter, I soon realized that he did not, but I also saw that he made a very strong case for the Oswald identification. When I got to the last page of the chapter, I thought to myself, "Holy cow! This is powerful stuff!"

Of course, since the Altgens photo shows Oswald standing in the TSBD doorway, he could not have been up on the sixth floor firing at Kennedy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 05, 2020, 12:14:45 AM
In his book The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), Dr. David Wrone makes a convincing case that Oswald, not Bill Lovelady, is the man seen standing in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo. Until very recently, I made the mistake of accepting the HSCA PEP's identification of the man as Lovelady. I should have known better. In fact, again until very recently, I always viewed the attempts to identify the man as Oswald as amateurish and embarrassing to the multiple-gunmen position.

When I recently bought Wrone's book and saw that it had a chapter on the man in the doorway (chapter 11), I assumed that Wrone identified the man as Lovelady. As I read the chapter, I soon realized that he did not, but I also saw that he made a very strong case for the Oswald identification. When I got to the last page of the chapter, I thought to myself, "Holy cow! This is powerful stuff!"

Of course, since the Altgens photo shows Oswald standing in the TSBD doorway, he could not have been up on the sixth floor firing at Kennedy.

There is

------------a very strong case to be made for Mr Oswald's having gone outside to watch the P. parade

------------a very strong case to be made for Mr Oswald's being Prayer Man

------------no case to be made for Mr Oswald's being the man in the doorway in the Altgens photograph.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 05, 2020, 03:17:30 AM
There is no case to be made for Mr Oswald's being the man in the doorway in the Altgens photograph.

That's what I thought until I read Wrone's chapter on the subject. You might want to read it.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2020, 01:49:41 PM
That's what I thought until I read Wrone's chapter on the subject. You might want to read it.

Holy crap!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2020, 02:48:54 PM
Holy crap!

One of the facts that Dr. Wrone points out is that we now have a clear picture from the Martin film of Bill Lovelady standing near the TSBD entrance shortly after the shooting, and the picture undeniably shows that Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved black-and-red shirt buttoned at the collar with no buttons unbuttoned. This fact categorically, absolutely rules him out as the man in the doorway.

Since Lovelady and Oswald's faces and hair looked very similar, we can go back and forth about the facial features of the man in the doorway, but we now know what kind of shirt Lovelady wore, and it was not the shirt worn by the man in the doorway.

Dr. Wrone notes that if you study the original Altgens photo at the National Archives, not the multi-generation copies commonly available, the man in the doorway's shirt looks exactly like the shirt that Oswald wore to work that day, down to the detail that the shirt is slightly oversized, that the shirt's color and pattern match those of Oswald's shirt, that the shirt has a small tear, and that the top three button holes are stretched and thus could not be buttoned, which explains why the top part of the man's shirt is unbuttoned.

Open your mind. Dare yourself to read research published after 1980.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 07, 2020, 06:25:32 PM
One of the facts that Dr. Wrone points out is that we now have a clear picture from the Martin film of Bill Lovelady standing near the TSBD entrance shortly after the shooting, and the picture undeniably shows Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved black-and-red shirt buttoned at the collar with no buttons unbuttoned. This fact categorically, absolutely rules him out as the man in the doorway.

It also destroys those whose say that Lovelady was wearing a striped shirt, not a red and white patterned shirt

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
It also destroys those whose say that Lovelady was wearing a striped shirt, not a red and white patterned shirt.

Yes, and the WC needed to ID the man as Lovelady because the man, by everyone's admission, also looks very much like Oswald. So they needed to ID the man as someone who looked similar to Oswald, and they were very lucky that Lovelady happened to be nearby at the same time. However, the commission had to brazenly misrepresent the facts about the shirt that Lovelady wore that day. The WC did not know that in later years the Martin film would provide clear frames of Lovelady and of the shirt he wore.

So it turns out that Harold Weisberg, known for being careful and meticulous, was right after all. Weisberg always insisted that Oswald was the man in the doorway. I regret that I was so certain that Weisberg was wrong that I didn't even bother to read his arguments on the subject. I should have known better.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2020, 07:55:47 PM
One of the facts that Dr. Wrone points out is that we now have a clear picture from the Martin film of Bill Lovelady standing near the TSBD entrance shortly after the shooting, and the picture undeniably shows Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved black-and-red shirt buttoned at the collar with no buttons unbuttoned. This fact categorically, absolutely rules him out as the man in the doorway.

Since Lovelady and Oswald's faces and hair looked very similar, we can go back and forth about the facial features of the man in the doorway, but we now know what kind of shirt Lovelady wore, and it was not the shirt worn by the man in the doorway.

Dr. Wrone notes that if you study the original Altgens photo at the National Archives, not the multi-generation copies commonly available, the man in the doorway's shirt looks exactly like the shirt that Oswald wore to work that day, down to the detail that the shirt is slightly oversized, that the shirt's color and pattern match those of Oswald's shirt, that the shirt has a small tear, and that the top three button holes are stretched and thus could not be buttoned, which explains why the top part of the man's shirt is unbuttoned.

Open your mind. Dare yourself to read research published after 1980.


Lovelady identified himself as himself. Fellow workers identified him as himself. I reckon Oswald had somewhat higher, loftier ambitions than to just stand around on TSBD entrance steps, doing nothing more than looking like himself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hunnicutt on September 07, 2020, 07:58:58 PM
"Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either."

You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?

"He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway)."

That has no bearing on the point I'm making. (wouldn't she be in Altgens 6)

"Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate."

Nice flip flop. A second ago no-one was standing next to prayer-blob as if it was some vast expanse of real estate, now everyone's together.
The two closest people to prayer-blob are Lovelady and Shelley. Lovelady confirms she was over by the right (west) side. Stanton can't see the motorcade as soon as it passes the front of the building.
Stanton is prayer-blob  8)

...You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?...

You don't say...

Bill Shelley was a fat guy?

Please opine?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2020, 12:04:05 AM
...You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?...

You don't say...

Bill Shelley was a fat guy?

Please opine?

"Bill Shelley was a fat guy?"

What are you talking about? In the picture below Shelley is the man on the far right. Do some basic research before you make your next irrelevant comment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFVzTJLY/shelley-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 08, 2020, 08:12:28 PM
Lovelady identified himself as himself. Fellow workers identified him as himself. I reckon Oswald had somewhat higher, loftier ambitions than to just stand around on TSBD entrance steps, doing nothing more than looking like himself.

Yeah, except that Lovelady lied about the shirt he was wearing and lied about where he was located. We know this from the Martin film and from other photographic evidence. I don't blame Lovelady too much because he was undoubtedly strong-armed by the FBI to lie about these things because they were desperate to avoid having to admit that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting.

Gosh, why don't you just dare yourself to break down and read research even though you know it will challenge your position?

Dr. Wrone is a very careful, measured scholar, not prone to flights of fancy. His book was endorsed by the likes of Dr. Douglas Brinkley and Dr. Walter Dellinger. Brinkley was the director of the Eisenhower Center and a professor of history at the University of New Orleans. Dellinger was a professor of law at Duke University and a former U.S. Solicitor General.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 08, 2020, 09:23:27 PM
Yeah, except that Lovelady lied about the shirt he was wearing and lied about where he was located. We know this from the Martin film and from other photographic evidence. I don't blame Lovelady too much because he was undoubtedly strong-armed by the FBI to lie about these things because they were desperate to avoid having to admit that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting.

Gosh, why don't you just dare yourself to break down and read research even though you know it will challenge your position?

Dr. Wrone is a very careful, measured scholar, not prone to flights of fancy. His book was endorsed by the likes of Dr. Douglas Brinkley and Dr. Walter Dellinger. Brinkley was the director of the Eisenhower Center and a professor of history at the University of New Orleans. Dellinger was a professor of law at Duke University and a former U.S. Solicitor General.

Goody for them: Now tell us who knew, besides the shooter, that a hit on Kennedy was scheduled for that day. So far, it seems everyone else either slept in or missed that particular memo.

My position includes having both feet on the ground, as opposed to pouring a vat of ivory-tower credentials over the ramparts like so much hot oil.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 09, 2020, 06:38:43 AM
If prayer blob is Stanton , then one would have to conclude that the  Lovelady statement “and right behind me” would have ended with “Sarah Stanton”, if he had not been interrupted in his WC testimony .

But would it not be illogically redundant for Lovelady to be relocating Stanton “ behind me” when he has already just located  her along with Shelley in his previous statement?

Now if one speculates that Lovelady was just about to ID the person in his “ and right behind me” statement as Oswald, if not interrupted, then one has to wonder why Lovelady would not met with one of those curious “accidental deaths” that so many other JFK witnesses did.

Would the conspirators have allowed Lovelady to live on for another 13 years with this vital secret of knowing Oswald had an iron clad alibi?

Perhaps this “interruption” of Lovelady in the WC hearing was merely coincidental, and the conspirators never really knew Lovelady had been almost about to exonerate Oswald?

could Lovelady have kept this vital secret to himself for the next 13 years?

Should Loveladys   death very close to the HSCA hearing be considered merely  a concidental death?

Or did conspirators learn belated via some source that Lovelady might ID the person “behind” as Oswald, thus Lovelady meets with the timely fatal heart attack at only the age of 45?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 09, 2020, 11:19:52 AM
If prayer blob is Stanton , then one would have to conclude that the  Lovelady statement “and right behind me” would have ended with “Sarah Stanton”, if he had not been interrupted in his WC testimony .

But would it not be illogically redundant for Lovelady to be relocating Stanton “ behind me” when he has already just located  her along with Shelley in his previous statement?

Now if one speculates that Lovelady was just about to ID the person in his “ and right behind me” statement as Oswald, if not interrupted, then one has to wonder why Lovelady would not met with one of those curious “accidental deaths” that so many other JFK witnesses did.

Would the conspirators have allowed Lovelady to live on for another 13 years with this vital secret of knowing Oswald had an iron clad alibi?

Perhaps this “interruption” of Lovelady in the WC hearing was merely coincidental, and the conspirators never really knew Lovelady had been almost about to exonerate Oswald?

could Lovelady have kept this vital secret to himself for the next 13 years?

Should Loveladys   death very close to the HSCA hearing be considered merely  a concidental death?

Or did conspirators learn belated via some source that Lovelady might ID the person “behind” as Oswald, thus Lovelady meets with the timely fatal heart attack at only the age of 45?

If we assume prayer-blob is LHO, the problem isn't confined to Lovelady. The majority of the twelve people stood on the TSBD steps as the President passed by knew LHO by sight, as did other employees who would have a clear view of prayer-blob such as O V Campbell and Roy Edward Lewis. In Darnell we see employees streaming back into the building all filing past him. When Baker gets into the lobby he sees "several people standing around" who we can assume are returning employees who have just passed LHO on the steps.
The number of witnesses who recognised LHO on the steps would probably run into double figures. In order to avoid this inconvenience PMZ's have LHO slipping outside quietly at the last minute and taking up a position at the back where he goes unnoticed (lets ignore the employees filing past him). AND THEN, to make the height requirements the same zealots have LHO in this position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbNHtwrg/oswald-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here we see him stood in the most awkward position imaginable, blocking part of the steps, in plain view of anyone on the top steps and right in the face of any returning employees. Hardly inconspicuous.
As soon as the FBI started interviewing people they would be hearing statement after statement placing LHO on the top step. All these people would have to be individually threatened and all would have to play along. In terms of mysterious deaths, every single person who witnessed LHO on the steps that day would become a top priority target.
This is all fantasy of course and goes away when we realise Oswald was not on the steps and is not prayer-blob.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2020, 09:27:31 PM
Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere.

Hardly anybody mentioned Jeraldean Reid standing out front.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
In his book The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), Dr. David Wrone makes a convincing case that Oswald, not Bill Lovelady, is the man seen standing in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo.

The problem is, the face and the hairline do not look like Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on September 10, 2020, 03:10:19 PM

The Altgens Doorway Man figure was proven to be Lovelady decades ago. Only a few people like Stinky still believe it is Oswald.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 10, 2020, 11:55:08 PM
So if someone can explain the 5’3” inch height of Prayerperson as due to something other than slouching/leaning against the west wall, or the one foot on lower step position , and one can explain the apparent fuzziness of busy hair behind the neck (is it hair or is it some photographic anomaly?)

And the white shirt person with both hands shading the eyes. that Alan Ford  has suggested might be Sarah Stanton , then there is a still a very slight possibility that PM is Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2020, 05:26:30 PM
Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere.

Hardly anybody mentioned Jeraldean Reid standing out front.

Ignore John, he likes to misrepresent everything I say.
This thread begins with me arguing that Oswald was an antisocial loner who went out of his way to avoid interacting with his fellow employees (there is plenty of testimonial evidence to this effect). Although he kept himself to himself this didn't make him invisible, far from it, it made him really stand out. John would have you believe you have to be 'intimately familiar' with someone in order to recognise their face. This is not the case, Oswald's extremely antisocial behaviour made him very recognisable.
Of the twelve employees who place themselves on the TSBD steps at the time of the assassination seven state they knew Oswald by sight, three stated they didn't know what he looked like, two simply say they didn't see him that day (Carl Edward Jones would've known Oswald from the Domino Room). Two people who were on the steps seconds after the last shot also knew Oswald by sight - Roy Truly and Roy Edward Lewis. Of the employees who were out front and who immediately returned to the TSBD after the shooting, six knew Oswald by sight - Westbrook, Hicks, Calvery, Hughes, Martha Reed and Jeraldean Reid. Carolyn Arnold, stood in front of the steps thought she may have seen Oswald behind the glass entrance about fifteen minutes before the motorcade arrived but never noticed him after that.
There are other possibilities but we can say with great confidence that if Oswald had been on the steps at least one of these people would have seen him. Nobody did.
John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows but in order to make the height requirement Oswald has to be placed at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step partially blocking the steps. Not exactly inconspicuous.
John's point about Jeraldean Reid is ridiculous. Firstly, two people - Carl Edward Lewis and Ochus Campbell - place Reid in front of the steps but this is not the point. Nobody is asking "Did you see Jeraldean Reid on the day of the assassination?" People are being specifically asked if they saw Oswald. Nobody places Carl Edward Jones on the steps but it doesn't matter. All that matters is where Oswald was at the time of the assassination and nobody, not one of all the potential witnesses who knew Oswald by sight, place him on the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2020, 06:10:20 PM
If prayer blob is Stanton , then one would have to conclude that the  Lovelady statement “and right behind me” would have ended with “Sarah Stanton”, if he had not been interrupted in his WC testimony .

But would it not be illogically redundant for Lovelady to be relocating Stanton “ behind me” when he has already just located  her along with Shelley in his previous statement?

Now if one speculates that Lovelady was just about to ID the person in his “ and right behind me” statement as Oswald, if not interrupted, then one has to wonder why Lovelady would not met with one of those curious “accidental deaths” that so many other JFK witnesses did.

Would the conspirators have allowed Lovelady to live on for another 13 years with this vital secret of knowing Oswald had an iron clad alibi?

Perhaps this “interruption” of Lovelady in the WC hearing was merely coincidental, and the conspirators never really knew Lovelady had been almost about to exonerate Oswald?

could Lovelady have kept this vital secret to himself for the next 13 years?

Should Loveladys   death very close to the HSCA hearing be considered merely  a concidental death?

Or did conspirators learn belated via some source that Lovelady might ID the person “behind” as Oswald, thus Lovelady meets with the timely fatal heart attack at only the age of 45?

Like a lot of people I too thought Lovelady had been interrupted before he could say who was behind him but I've noticed something in his WC testimony that indicates this might not be the case. For those who want to place Oswald on the steps at the time of the assassination the story must go something like this - Lovelady recognised Oswald on the steps but was warned/threatened that he was to ignore this (the same must be true of all the potential witnesses). Just before his WC testimony Lovelady would probably have been warned again not to mention Oswald but as he was being questioned about who he was stood with on the steps he was just about to let it slip that Oswald was there but, in a moment of telepathic brilliance, Mr Ball interrupts to steer him away from his potential blunder.
However, when we look more closely at Lovelady's WC testimony we notice the following two passages:

"Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?"

"Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?"

In both these examples we can see that Lovelady was interrupted during the questioning. These interruptions are represented by 3 dashes (---) at the end of Lovelady's words. Now look at the passage in question:

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Notice there are no dashes at the point where it is thought Lovelady was interrupted. It should read like this:

Mr. LOVALADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me ---
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

So it looks like Lovelady wasn't interrupted at all. If that's the case what can we make of his reply.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2020, 02:14:05 AM
There are other possibilities but we can say with great confidence that if Oswald had been on the steps at least one of these people would have seen him. Nobody did.

Why can “we” say that with great confidence? Just because you decided that it was so?

Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm street have some kind of 360-degree vision?

Quote
John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows but in order to make the height requirement Oswald has to be placed at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step partially blocking the steps. Not exactly inconspicuous.

Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind. By the way, what “height requirement”?

Quote
John's point about Jeraldean Reid is ridiculous. Firstly, two people - Carl Edward Lewis and Ochus Campbell - place Reid in front of the steps but this is not the point. Nobody is asking "Did you see Jeraldean Reid on the day of the assassination?" People are being specifically asked if they saw Oswald. Nobody places Carl Edward Jones on the steps but it doesn't matter.

Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 13, 2020, 03:50:08 AM
Why can “we” say that with great confidence? Just because you decided that it was so?

Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm street have some kind of 360-degree vision?

Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind. By the way, what “height requirement”?

Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there.

"Why can "we" say that with great confidence? Just because you decided so?"

No John, it's not because I decided so. The answer to your question is in the section of my post you decided to leave out (a familiar tactic). Let's assume prayer-blob is Oswald. The reason I believe "we" can say with great confidence at least one of he witnesses who knew Oswald by sight would have spotted him on the steps is because there are so many of them. They are stood on the landing with him, on the steps just in front of him and passing by him on the steps as they return to the building. I believe the chances of him being spotted by at least one of the many witnesses are very high.

"Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm Street have some kind of 360-degree vision?"

Really John? This nonsense is the best you can come up with? People have necks on which they can turn their heads. They have bodies that can move about. Your assertion that people can only look in one direction is childish. But lets imagine you're right and they can only look straight ahead. The people coming up the steps would still be able to see him wouldn't they? (unless you also have a rule about having to close your eyes as you go up steps!)

"Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind."

Referring to yourself in the first-person is creepy. This is what you said:
"Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere." (my italics)
This is what I said:
"John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows..."
Please explain how you've been misrepresented.

"By the way, what “height requirement”?"

An analysis of the Darnell film by Andrej Stancak measures the height of prayer-blob as about 5'2". This is too short for Oswald so in order for him to meet the "height requirement" (5'2") he has to be standing with one foot on the first step as shown in the graphic I posted.

"Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there."

My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there. The reason it doesn't matter if someone like Carl Edward Jones wasn't mentioned by other witnesses is that he wasn't suspected of assassinating JFK. The FBI was specifically asking if anyone had seen Oswald. People were being asked to remember if they had seen Oswald at the time of the assassination, not Carl Jones.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2020, 06:43:04 PM
"John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows..."
Please explain how you've been misrepresented.

I never argued that Oswald was standing back in the shadows or that he had one foot down on the next step, so you’re strawmanning me. I don’t claim to know who prayer-blob is. I’m specifically dealing with your bogus argument that if nobody is documented to have seen Oswald, then he couldn’t have been there. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence — even if you arbitrarily decide that your conjectures have “great confidence” or surety.

Quote
An analysis of the Darnell film by Andrej Stancak measures the height of prayer-blob as about 5'2".

I’m not sure I would agree that this is an indisputable conclusion, but since you seem to believe it, perhaps you could summarize why you think this is accurate. And I hope it’s a better reason than the “Tommy Graves squinted at it, therefore it was Calvery” argument that you found to be so compelling with “great confidence”.

Quote
This is too short for Oswald so in order for him to meet the "height requirement" (5'2") he has to be standing with one foot on the first step as shown in the graphic I posted.

Your compatriot fabricator Brian Doyle claims that Stancak put prayer-blob at 5’4”, so which is it? Better yet, why don’t you let Stancak speak for himself? But why is the suggestion that prayer blob may have one leg down such a problem to begin with?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 13, 2020, 07:02:11 PM
"Why can "we" say that with great confidence? Just because you decided so?"

No John, it's not because I decided so. The answer to your question is in the section of my post you decided to leave out (a familiar tactic). Let's assume prayer-blob is Oswald. The reason I believe "we" can say with great confidence at least one of he witnesses who knew Oswald by sight would have spotted him on the steps is because there are so many of them. They are stood on the landing with him, on the steps just in front of him and passing by him on the steps as they return to the building. I believe the chances of him being spotted by at least one of the many witnesses are very high.

"Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm Street have some kind of 360-degree vision?"

Really John? This nonsense is the best you can come up with? People have necks on which they can turn their heads. They have bodies that can move about. Your assertion that people can only look in one direction is childish. But lets imagine you're right and they can only look straight ahead. The people coming up the steps would still be able to see him wouldn't they? (unless you also have a rule about having to close your eyes as you go up steps!)

"Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind."

Referring to yourself in the first-person is creepy. This is what you said:
"Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere." (my italics)
This is what I said:
"John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows..."
Please explain how you've been misrepresented.

"By the way, what “height requirement”?"

An analysis of the Darnell film by Andrej Stancak measures the height of prayer-blob as about 5'2". This is too short for Oswald so in order for him to meet the "height requirement" (5'2") he has to be standing with one foot on the first step as shown in the graphic I posted.

"Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there."

My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there. The reason it doesn't matter if someone like Carl Edward Jones wasn't mentioned by other witnesses is that he wasn't suspected of assassinating JFK. The FBI was specifically asking if anyone had seen Oswald. People were being asked to remember if they had seen Oswald at the time of the assassination, not Carl Jones.


My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there.

Wow, that's a massive assumption and a flawed one, for two reasons;

1. People were all looking in the direction of Elm street, where the motorcade was passing. They had no reason to turn around and look who was behind them. After the shots were fired it was complete chaos, with people not knowing what was going on. Under those circumstances people notice very little of their surroundings.

2. Even if nobody saw Oswald there, that still only means that nobody saw him (or possibly did not recall seeing him) there. It doesn't mean he wasn't there.

A while ago I was walking down the street when a car hit a cyclist. The accident quickly got the attention of lots of people and one of them was a good friend of mine. He was on the other side of the street and I waved to him, but got no reaction. About an hour later he phoned me and told me about the accident and I answered I knew about it because I had been there when it happened and had seen him. He had not seen me!

Going by your "logic", he did not see me, so I couldn't have been there, right? Yet, I was there nevertheless!

Do you now see how flawed you reasoning is?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 13, 2020, 08:19:29 PM

My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there.

Wow, that's a massive assumption and a flawed one, for two reasons;

1. People were all looking in the direction of Elm street, where the motorcade was passing. They had no reason to turn around and look who was behind them. After the shots were fired it was complete chaos, with people not knowing what was going on. Under those circumstances people notice very little of their surroundings.

2. Even if nobody saw Oswald there, that still only means that nobody saw him (or possibly did not recall seeing him) there. It doesn't mean he wasn't there.

A while ago I was walking down the street when a car hit a cyclist. The accident quickly got the attention of lots of people and one of them was a good friend of mine. He was on the other side of the street and I waved to him, but got no reaction. About an hour later he phoned me and told me about the accident and I answered I knew about it because I had been there when it happened and had seen him. He had not seen me!

Going by your "logic", he did not see me, so I couldn't have been there, right? Yet, I was there nevertheless!

Do you now see how flawed you reasoning is?

I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption. Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!
In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 13, 2020, 10:52:09 PM
I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption. Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!
In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?

I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption.

There is no such thing as a "reasonable assumption". An assumption is by definition biased and will always support the argument that the person making the assumption wants to make. There is nothing reasonable about that.

Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

All this is, is an argument in support of your assumption. It has no significant value... There is no cut off point, where you can say; "oh, 20 people didn't see him there, so he wasn't there".

You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions!

No... Of course it is possible that somebody turned their head. The problem is that there is no evidence to support the argument that somebody actually did. Personally, I find it somewhat unlikely that anybody who has waited for the President for some time would actually look away at the moment he passes by.

Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

That's one version. Another one is that she saw him in the 2nd floor lunchroom. There is nothing solid there, either way.

In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?


There is no flaw in my reasoning. The actually flaw is your failure to understand what I was saying. It's human nature that you fail to ignore. If something interesting is going on in front of you, you don't turn around and look the other way. It doesn't matter if you apply that to one person or to a dozen. The outcome is still the same.

But even if it wasn't, and all 12 people turned around at the same time and did not see Oswald there, that still does not mean he wasn't there. It only means that, for whatever reason, they didn't see him.

Your basic argument requires that you prove a negative and that's something nobody has ever been able to do.

Btw, just so you understand. I don't know if Oswald was there or not nor do I argue that he was there. I think it's possible he was indeed there, but that's only because of Baker's initial comments before they morphed into a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. What is beyond clear to me by now is that Oswald being at the 6th floor at 12.30 shooting at Kennedy's limo is a highly unlikely scenario.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 14, 2020, 01:44:18 AM
I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption.

There is no such thing as a "reasonable assumption". An assumption is by definition biased and will always support the argument that the person making the assumption wants to make. There is nothing reasonable about that.

Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

All this is, is an argument in support of your assumption. It has no significant value... There is no cut off point, where you can say; "oh, 20 people didn't see him there, so he wasn't there".

You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions!

No... Of course it is possible that somebody turned their head. The problem is that there is no evidence to support the argument that somebody actually did. Personally, I find it somewhat unlikely that anybody who has waited for the President for some time would actually look away at the moment he passes by.

Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

That's one version. Another one is that she saw him in the 2nd floor lunchroom. There is nothing solid there, either way.

In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?


There is no flaw in my reasoning. The actually flaw is your failure to understand what I was saying. It's human nature that you fail to ignore. If something interesting is going on in front of you, you don't turn around and look the other way. It doesn't matter if you apply that to one person or to a dozen. The outcome is still the same.

But even if it wasn't, and all 12 people turned around at the same time and did not see Oswald there, that still does not mean he wasn't there. It only means that, for whatever reason, they didn't see him.

Your basic argument requires that you prove a negative and that's something nobody has ever been able to do.

Btw, just so you understand. I don't know if Oswald was there or not nor do I argue that he was there. I think it's possible he was indeed there, but that's only because of Baker's initial comments before they morphed into a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. What is beyond clear to me by now is that Oswald being at the 6th floor at 12.30 shooting at Kennedy's limo is a highly unlikely scenario.
I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it. There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it. The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid. There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.
What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there. It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2020, 03:35:18 AM
I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it. There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it. The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid. There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.
What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there. It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it.

Yes, there is a point. I only have an opinion. If that opinion is incorrect, I would love to know about it.

There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it.

Let me correct my previous comment. There is indeed a thing as a reasonable assumption, but only in those cases where the assumption has no consequence for the subsequent opinion. In other words; when you wake up in the morning and the streets are wet, it is reasonable to assume that it rained during the night.  It still could be the wrong conclusion as it could also be that a fire hydrant exploded, but it was a reasonable conclusion nevertheless, as it was a conclusion without consequence.

However, as soon as the final outcome is determined by the assumption, it is no longer reasonable.

The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid.

Wrong. As soon as the shots were fired, it was chaos at Dealey Plaza... The observations of individuals became less reliable, not more reliable. The human brain can only process so much. When the POTUS is killed in front of you, most people hardly pay attention to their surroundings. Instead their main focus is to find out what happened.

You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.

I don't ignore anything. A dozen people said they didn't see Oswald, so what? Big deal! When did they say that? Months later, after Oswald was already dead and buried and branded by the media as the sole assassin. Now. let's suppose, you are a witness who did see Oswald on the stairs (meaning he couldn't be the killer), what do you do? Don't underestimate the survival instinct of people... Why rock the boat? When the media tells us he did it, who am I to tell them they are wrong and what would be the consequences for me?

There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.


You are way too much interested in reaching a pre-determined conclusion.

What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there.

Finally...  which, of course, destroys your entire argument.

It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Please explain? Probabilities can be subjective.... I really need you to explain this to me as it doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hunnicutt on September 14, 2020, 04:05:23 AM
Ignore John, he likes to misrepresent everything I say.
This thread begins with me arguing that Oswald was an antisocial loner who went out of his way to avoid interacting with his fellow employees (there is plenty of testimonial evidence to this effect). Although he kept himself to himself this didn't make him invisible, far from it, it made him really stand out. John would have you believe you have to be 'intimately familiar' with someone in order to recognise their face. This is not the case, Oswald's extremely antisocial behaviour made him very recognisable.
Of the twelve employees who place themselves on the TSBD steps at the time of the assassination seven state they knew Oswald by sight, three stated they didn't know what he looked like, two simply say they didn't see him that day (Carl Edward Jones would've known Oswald from the Domino Room). Two people who were on the steps seconds after the last shot also knew Oswald by sight - Roy Truly and Roy Edward Lewis. Of the employees who were out front and who immediately returned to the TSBD after the shooting, six knew Oswald by sight - Westbrook, Hicks, Calvery, Hughes, Martha Reed and Jeraldean Reid. Carolyn Arnold, stood in front of the steps thought she may have seen Oswald behind the glass entrance about fifteen minutes before the motorcade arrived but never noticed him after that.
There are other possibilities but we can say with great confidence that if Oswald had been on the steps at least one of these people would have seen him. Nobody did.
John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows but in order to make the height requirement Oswald has to be placed at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step partially blocking the steps. Not exactly inconspicuous.
John's point about Jeraldean Reid is ridiculous. Firstly, two people - Carl Edward Lewis and Ochus Campbell - place Reid in front of the steps but this is not the point. Nobody is asking "Did you see Jeraldean Reid on the day of the assassination?" People are being specifically asked if they saw Oswald. Nobody places Carl Edward Jones on the steps but it doesn't matter. All that matters is where Oswald was at the time of the assassination and nobody, not one of all the potential witnesses who knew Oswald by sight, place him on the steps.

I do not normally converse with two bit internet hacks but here goes Mr "Dan O'Meara"...you, who if you happen to go back and look at part 1 of the P Parade thread, your name and avatar picture suddenly appears like magic where Brian Doyle's name and avatar used to appear.

YOU = Fraudster to the nth degree and are forever branded as one not to be trusted under ANY NAME!..(no matter how many "names" you have Brian, your insecure insolence and your feverish dreams and machinations always gives you away "Mr Doyle".

A guy by the name of John Iacoletti wrote an entire thread about you. (Falsehoods and false claims thread)

A quick cross check of your past writings right a long with your present ones is fooling no one.

Why not grow the f*ck up and use your one real name and stick to it like everybody else on this God damn planet?

Why so many banning's and so many usernames when the minute you type, people know who is there?

(okay I'll play)....

I think it has something to do with that scientifically proven language of forensic linguini science, don't you?

Surreal. Absolutely surreal and you are a stark raving nut ball.

Goodbye
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 14, 2020, 09:59:18 AM
I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it.

Yes, there is a point. I only have an opinion. If that opinion is incorrect, I would love to know about it.

And what opinion is that?

Quote
There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it.

Let me correct my previous comment. There is indeed a thing as a reasonable assumption, but only in those cases where the assumption has no consequence for the subsequent opinion. In other words; when you wake up in the morning and the streets are wet, it is reasonable to assume that it rained during the night.  It still could be the wrong conclusion as it could also be that a fire hydrant exploded, but it was a reasonable conclusion nevertheless, as it was a conclusion without consequence.

However, as soon as the final outcome is determined by the assumption, it is no longer reasonable.
As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Quote
The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid.

Wrong. As soon as the shots were fired, it was chaos at Dealey Plaza... The observations of individuals became less reliable, not more reliable. The human brain can only process so much. When the POTUS is killed in front of you, most people hardly pay attention to their surroundings. Instead their main focus is to find out what happened.

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred. No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Quote
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.

I don't ignore anything. A dozen people said they didn't see Oswald, so what? Big deal! When did they say that? Months later, after Oswald was already dead and buried and branded by the media as the sole assassin. Now. let's suppose, you are a witness who did see Oswald on the stairs (meaning he couldn't be the killer), what do you do? Don't underestimate the survival instinct of people... Why rock the boat? When the media tells us he did it, who am I to tell them they are wrong and what would be the consequences for me?

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

Quote
There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.


You are way too much interested in reaching a pre-determined conclusion.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there. Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

Quote
What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there.

Finally...  which, of course, destroys your entire argument.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.

Quote
It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Please explain? Probabilities can be subjective.... I really need you to explain this to me as it doesn't make sense to me.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 14, 2020, 10:01:38 AM
I do not normally converse with two bit internet hacks but here goes Mr "Dan O'Meara"...you, who if you happen to go back and look at part 1 of the P Parade thread, your name and avatar picture suddenly appears like magic where Brian Doyle's name and avatar used to appear.

YOU = Fraudster to the nth degree and are forever branded as one not to be trusted under ANY NAME!..(no matter how many "names" you have Brian, your insecure insolence and your feverish dreams and machinations always gives you away "Mr Doyle".

A guy by the name of John Iacoletti wrote an entire thread about you. (Falsehoods and false claims thread)

A quick cross check of your past writings right a long with your present ones is fooling no one.

Why not grow the f*ck up and use your one real name and stick to it like everybody else on this God damn planet?

Why so many banning's and so many usernames when the minute you type, people know who is there?

(okay I'll play)....

I think it has something to do with that scientifically proven language of forensic linguini science, don't you?

Surreal. Absolutely surreal and you are a stark raving nut ball.

Goodbye
:D :D :D
Relax Hunnibuns  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2020, 01:56:32 PM
And what opinion is that?
As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred. No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there. Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.

And what opinion is that?

You need to ask? How can you say - as you did earlier - that you disagree with so much I said when you don't even know what I said?

As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Except you're not helping. You are only showing us all that you cleary are confused, to put it mildly. It's beyond hilarious to claim that an assumption somehow can "inform your opinion".

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred.

Playing the semantics game doesn't enhance your credibility. It only shows the level of desperation with which you are trying to cling to your flawed argument. The people on the steps heard the shots and a co-worker (can't remember her name) ran towards them and told them the President had been shot. So, within seconds after the shots they knew what was going on.

No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Where did I claim that people were in shock? That's a strawman! And yes, most likely people did indeed turn to eachother to find out what happened. However, I don't know about you, but if I want to find out what happened I would look in the direction where it happened, rather than turn around and look the other way.

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

You clearly have no understanding of human nature. In your perfect world witnesses will come forward voluntary and without fear, right? Well, your perfect world is fantasia land. In the real world, most people simply don't want to get involved. That's not an assumption, it's a fact. Just ask any detective. It is as true today as it was in the past.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there.

Great... end of discussion then, right?

Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.


My biased attitude? Really?... How pathetic. As for the rest of what you've written; like a dog chasing his own tail, you are going round in circles and are not getting anywhere fast.

On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there.

I am not wasting anymore time on this.... I merely wanted to point out the flaw in your argument, but you can't argue with stubborn. Good luck with trying to prove a meaningless negative. When you are done, I'm sure the real world will welcome you back with open arms..... oh wait, in your book that's an assumption....  :D 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2020, 01:27:28 AM
If we assume prayer-blob is LHO, the problem isn't confined to Lovelady. The majority of the twelve people stood on the TSBD steps as the President passed by knew LHO by sight, as did other employees who would have a clear view of prayer-blob such as O V Campbell and Roy Edward Lewis. In Darnell we see employees streaming back into the building all filing past him. When Baker gets into the lobby he sees "several people standing around" who we can assume are returning employees who have just passed LHO on the steps.
The number of witnesses who recognised LHO on the steps would probably run into double figures. In order to avoid this inconvenience PMZ's have LHO slipping outside quietly at the last minute and taking up a position at the back where he goes unnoticed (lets ignore the employees filing past him). AND THEN, to make the height requirements the same zealots have LHO in this position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbNHtwrg/oswald-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here we see him stood in the most awkward position imaginable, blocking part of the steps, in plain view of anyone on the top steps and right in the face of any returning employees. Hardly inconspicuous.
As soon as the FBI started interviewing people they would be hearing statement after statement placing LHO on the top step. All these people would have to be individually threatened and all would have to play along. In terms of mysterious deaths, every single person who witnessed LHO on the steps that day would become a top priority target.
This is all fantasy of course and goes away when we realise Oswald was not on the steps and is not prayer-blob.

Yes, I agree with You, Mr. Dan,  that the one step down position seems a bit awkward.

I  also agreed with the former  Mr. Doyle,  the logical place for a 300 lb fat woman to stand would be  where Prayrblob is for the reasons:

1. Out of everyone else way and not blocking the door
2. Has better LOS to see motorcade
3. Not in the sunlight, thus having hands free to hold the coffee cup carefully with both hands, instead of having to use one hand to shade eyes
4. If it’s a porcelain white coffee cup from the 2nd floor lunchroom, the out of the way corner reduces chance of being bumped into, spilling the coffee and or dropping the cup and it shattering  on the concrete landing

in summary the “fat lady” was self aware and taking precautions to avoid any potential accident or becoming an obstruction to her fellow employees.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 15, 2020, 09:43:01 AM
And what opinion is that?

You need to ask? How can you say - as you did earlier - that you disagree with so much I said when you don't even know what I said?

As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Except you're not helping. You are only showing us all that you cleary are confused, to put it mildly. It's beyond hilarious to claim that an assumption somehow can "inform your opinion".

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred.

Playing the semantics game doesn't enhance your credibility. It only shows the level of desperation with which you are trying to cling to your flawed argument. The people on the steps heard the shots and a co-worker (can't remember her name) ran towards them and told them the President had been shot. So, within seconds after the shots they knew what was going on.

No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Where did I claim that people were in shock? That's a strawman! And yes, most likely people did indeed turn to eachother to find out what happened. However, I don't know about you, but if I want to find out what happened I would look in the direction where it happened, rather than turn around and look the other way.

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

You clearly have no understanding of human nature. In your perfect world witnesses will come forward voluntary and without fear, right? Well, your perfect world is fantasia land. In the real world, most people simply don't want to get involved. That's not an assumption, it's a fact. Just ask any detective. It is as true today as it was in the past.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there.

Great... end of discussion then, right?

Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.


My biased attitude? Really?... How pathetic. As for the rest of what you've written; like a dog chasing his own tail, you are going round in circles and are not getting anywhere fast.

On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there.

I am not wasting anymore time on this.... I merely wanted to point out the flaw in your argument, but you can't argue with stubborn. Good luck with trying to prove a meaningless negative. When you are done, I'm sure the real world will welcome you back with open arms..... oh wait, in your book that's an assumption....  :D

I won't bother with most of your reply as it's utter garbage coming from a truly entrenched mind. But this highlight does need dealing with:

"Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there."
"On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there."


Assuming the prayer-blob is Oswald. He is surrounded by witnesses who know him by sight - some stood behind the glass entrance with a clear view of him, some stood alongside him, some walking past him on the steps. There are about a dozen potential witnesses. Not one of then places him at that position. None of this is opinion, it's testimonial fact which I believe favours the view that it is not Oswald on the steps. But it doesn't 'prove' it's not Oswald.
For you to imagine this is a contradictory position demonstrates the kind of brainpower you have at your disposal.
Don't bother replying.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 15, 2020, 01:48:27 PM
I won't bother with most of your reply as it's utter garbage coming from a truly entrenched mind. But this highlight does need dealing with:

"Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there."
"On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there."


Assuming the prayer-blob is Oswald. He is surrounded by witnesses who know him by sight - some stood behind the glass entrance with a clear view of him, some stood alongside him, some walking past him on the steps. There are about a dozen potential witnesses. Not one of then places him at that position. None of this is opinion, it's testimonial fact which I believe favours the view that it is not Oswald on the steps. But it doesn't 'prove' it's not Oswald.
For you to imagine this is a contradictory position demonstrates the kind of brainpower you have at your disposal.
Don't bother replying.

Don't bother replying.

Who the hell do you think you are, to tell me what to do?

I won't bother with most of your reply as it's utter garbage coming from a truly entrenched mind.

Never was there a bigger admission of weakness and lack of sound arguments!

As for you rest of moronic comments, you can try to weasel your way out of it is much as you want, but the facts are and remain simple; Oswald was there or he wasn't. Period!

When you agree that the lack of witness corroboration does not prove he wasn't there, you can not use that same lack of witness corroboration to argue that he probably wasn't there! Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! It's simply pathetic that you don't understand the contradiction in your stupid argument.

Bring me witnesses who say it was somebody else there and you might have a point, but until you do all you've got is wishful thinking, pure speculation and a hollow argument and that ain't much, but I seriously doubt that your delusional mind is able to comprehend that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2020, 02:14:27 AM
Yes, I agree with You, Mr. Dan,  that the one step down position seems a bit awkward.

I  also agreed with the former  Mr. Doyle,  the logical place for a 300 lb fat woman to stand would be  where Prayrblob is for the reasons:

1. Out of everyone else way and not blocking the door
2. Has better LOS to see motorcade
3. Not in the sunlight, thus having hands free to hold the coffee cup carefully with both hands, instead of having to use one hand to shade eyes
4. If it’s a porcelain white coffee cup from the 2nd floor lunchroom, the out of the way corner reduces chance of being bumped into, spilling the coffee and or dropping the cup and it shattering  on the concrete landing

in summary the “fat lady” was self aware and taking precautions to avoid any potential accident or becoming an obstruction to her fellow employees.

There are some commonsense assumptions here but I'd like to make a quick point about the white porcelain cup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbz07Mvc/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
This Gif shows two images from Wiegman. It shows the white 'glowing' object being moved up and down. The first frame is the one that shows the object being held up to the face of prayer-blob, the second has the object in the lower position. In his WC testimony Bill Shelley states he went for lunch about 11:50am, went to his office on the first floor and ate part of his lunch then went out front, on the landing of the steps just outside the glass door because their were already some people outside, one of whom was Sarah Stanton.
How long does it take Shelley to get to his room and eat part of his lunch? 10 to 15 minutes seems fairly reasonable, which would mean Stanton is out there already by 12:00 to 12:05pm. The above Wiegman frames are taken seconds after the shooting around 12:30. It's just an opinion but I'm not convinced Stanton would still be drinking her coffee up to half an hour later. Maybe she liked it cold and made it last a long time. Maybe she went back up to the second floor lunchroom and came back down with a coffee just before the shooting.
Personally I have a different idea about the object in prayer-blob's hand but the images are so sketchy I find it impossible to be definitive.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 16, 2020, 11:51:47 PM
Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred. No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Hang on.  The very same frame has who you claim is Gloria Calvery already on the steps telling everyone that she saw the president shot.  You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 12:02:47 AM
Assuming the prayer-blob is Oswald. He is surrounded by witnesses who know him by sight - some stood behind the glass entrance with a clear view of him, some stood alongside him, some walking past him on the steps. There are about a dozen potential witnesses. Not one of then places him at that position. None of this is opinion, it's testimonial fact which I believe favours the view that it is not Oswald on the steps.

How many of these "dozen potential witnesses" mentioned seeing Sarah Stanton (or anybody else by name) standing in that spot?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 12:07:22 AM
How long does it take Shelley to get to his room and eat part of his lunch? 10 to 15 minutes seems fairly reasonable, which would mean Stanton is out there already by 12:00 to 12:05pm. The above Wiegman frames are taken seconds after the shooting around 12:30. It's just an opinion but I'm not convinced Stanton would still be drinking her coffee up to half an hour later. Maybe she liked it cold and made it last a long time. Maybe she went back up to the second floor lunchroom and came back down with a coffee just before the shooting.

LOL. You start with the unproven premise that it's Stanton and then use that assumption to argue that she wouldn't be drinking a cup of coffee.

Unless it's not Stanton.  Or coffee.  Or a cigarette for that matter.  Do you even know if Stanton smoked?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2020, 02:18:56 AM
How many of these "dozen potential witnesses" mentioned seeing Sarah Stanton (or anybody else by name) standing in that spot?

Come on John.

Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Sarah Stanton?
A: None
Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Oswald?
A: All of them
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2020, 02:32:42 AM
LOL. You start with the unproven premise that it's Stanton and then use that assumption to argue that she wouldn't be drinking a cup of coffee.

Unless it's not Stanton.  Or coffee.  Or a cigarette for that matter.  Do you even know if Stanton smoked?
More misrepresentation.
I'm not starting with any unproven assumption. The part you leave out (as usual) is that I'm responding to and disagreeing with Zeon's assumption that Stanton (the 300lb fat lady) is drinking a cup of coffee.
I know you know this but you choose to misrepresent.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2020, 02:39:07 AM
Hang on.  The very same frame has who you claim is Gloria Calvery already on the steps telling everyone that she saw the president shot.  You can't have it both ways.
Even by your high standards of misrepresentation this stands out.
In the post you refer to I state that the President was not shot in front of the steps of the TSBD and that the people stood there only started to find out from returning employees (ie: Gloria Calvery).
What on earth do you mean I "can't have it both ways"? What do you mean by "the very same frame"?
What, exactly, are you talking about?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 17, 2020, 05:53:14 PM
Even by your high standards of misrepresentation this stands out.
In the post you refer to I state that the President was not shot in front of the steps of the TSBD and that the people stood there only started to find out from returning employees (ie: Gloria Calvery).
What on earth do you mean I "can't have it both ways"? What do you mean by "the very same frame"?
What, exactly, are you talking about?

If you don't know or understand what John is talking about exactly, how can you call it a "misrepresentation"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 17, 2020, 06:05:25 PM
Come on John.

Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Sarah Stanton?
A: None
Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Oswald?
A: All of them

The TSBD employees were asked, March 1964, if they had seen Oswald when the shots were fired or when Kennedy was shot!

As is very often the case, the quality of the question determines the quality of the answer.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 07:23:20 PM
Come on John.

Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Sarah Stanton?
A: None
Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Oswald?
A: All of them

4 or 5 months after the fact, some of which conflicted with prior or later statements.  Carolyn Arnold's March 18 statement, for example, said only "I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President Kennedy was shot".

As Martin astutely points out, we're not privy to what the question actually was.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 07:28:42 PM
Even by your high standards of misrepresentation this stands out.
In the post you refer to I state that the President was not shot in front of the steps of the TSBD and that the people stood there only started to find out from returning employees (ie: Gloria Calvery).
What on earth do you mean I "can't have it both ways"? What do you mean by "the very same frame"?
What, exactly, are you talking about?

The Darnell frame in which Tommy Graves argued to your satisfaction that Gloria Calvery was up on the steps telling everybody about the shooting.  This is the same moment in time that you are also arguing that "the people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on", in order to argue with Martin's postulate that the people on the steps may not realize who was around them because of the stress of the moment.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2020, 05:13:28 PM
Friends, we have known for some time now that all the 'Fritz notes' of Mr Oswald's interrogations are not his own notes---------------

Though they are indeed in Captain Fritz's handwriting, they derive their contents from FBI Agent James Bookhout's series of solo reports.

However, p. 1 has always presented an anomaly, as it does not correspond nearly as closely as the other pages to the first published Bookhout solo report.

Well! There's a curious feature on this p.1 that gives us a clue as to how all the 'Fritz notes' came to be written down:

(https://i.imgur.com/gf4Q6M4.jpg)

Captain Fritz is not copying or digesting directly from a written source he has in front of him. No---------he is scribbling this stuff down as he listens. Hence a) the ridiculous misspelling (unthinkable from a trained FBI agent!) of 'writing' as 'wrighting'; b) the phonetic first attempt at the unfamiliar name 'Bookhout' ("B.O.").

Conclusion!

Captain Fritz is either listening to someone reading out a report or listening to the playback of a dictated report.

Either way, he is not copying down Agent Bookhout's contemporaneous notes (i.e. notes taken during the actual session).

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2020, 10:39:32 PM
  No---------he is scribbling this stuff down as he listens
By his own admission ..that is not true.
The scribble is from memory [some time later] Maybe that evening.
There was no recording.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 20, 2020, 12:11:21 PM
By his own admission ..that is not true.
The scribble is from memory [some time later] Maybe that evening.
There was no recording.

No recording of what?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 20, 2020, 04:58:42 PM
Now!

We know from Agent Hosty's handwritten draft report that Mr Oswald--------------in that first interrogation--------------told Captain Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade".

However, in the first published interrogation report-----------------the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty-----------------this fact is carefully danced around: Mr Oswald with helpful vagueness merely gave "first floor" as his location when Mr Kennedy passed the building. Furthermore, the name "Bill Shelley" is studiously avoided. But! We see it here handwritten at the top:

(https://i.imgur.com/plAAydL.jpg)

Mr Shelley is relevant to but cannot be mentioned in this report of Mr Oswald's first interrogation.

In Agent Bookhout's subsequent solo report, Mr Shelley's name is included but in a way that suppresses the true context in which Mr Oswald named him.

What is that true context? Why, Mr Oswald names Mr Shelley as someone who was out on the front steps at the time he (Mr Oswald) went out there-------------i.e. at the time of the shooting.

But there were plenty of people out on those front steps at the time. So why does Mr Oswald single Mr Shelley out for special mention?

Apart from the obvious fact that Mr Shelley is his supervisor, there's also this fact to consider:

Just over an hour previously, Mr Oswald has been brought into the Homicide Office:

(https://i.imgur.com/3g0ip3I.gif)

In this footage, we see that he is not brought straight into the back room. The reason is that there is already someone in there having their statement taken. That person we know from the documentary record to be Mr Bill Shelley. The room must be cleared before Mr Oswald can be brought in.

Had the camera kept filming this scene a little longer, we would see Mr Shelley being brought out of the back room, right in front of Mr Oswald, and Mr Oswald then being brought in.

Mr Oswald therefore has seen Mr Shelley at DPD HQ and now, in interrogation, is-----------sensibly enough-----------naming him as someone from whom Captain Fritz can easily ask for confirmation of Mr Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the shooting: front steps.

Small wonder Mr Shelley is designated a Key Person at the top of that first interrogation report!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 25, 2020, 06:26:43 AM
What’s really confusing is Bill Shelly WC testimony vs Charles Givens WC testimony

Shelly says to the effect he saw Oswald at 10 till 12 When Shelly WENT DOWN to the 1st floor to eat his lunch.

There was oddly no follow up
question to Shelly to
more specifically state if that meant  seeing Oswald “on the 1st floor at 10 till 12 or on the 6th floor

Givens WC testimony is agreeing with the time 11:55 of seeing Oswald on 6th floor after having seen him at 11:45 on the 5th floor as all others from
6th floor were taking elevator down at which time allegedly, Oswald shouted to send elevator back up. And Givens then goes back up to get cigarettes he left and sees Oswald and Oswald says AGAIN?! to
Send elevator back up rather than ride down with Givens. WTF???

Me thinks somebody is a BS Lion

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2020, 08:26:09 PM
Givens originally told the FBI that he saw Oswald on the first floor in the domino room at 11:50.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 25, 2020, 08:41:22 PM
Eddie Piper has him on the first floor at noon:

    Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
    Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
    Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2020, 04:57:29 AM
Imo, Oswald’s reason to speak to Piper at 12pm was to inform Piper that Oswald was going “out” . This in order that should Truly direct PIper to go find Oswald , would spare Piper wasting time searching floors and would inform Truly that Oswald was unavailable , having left the building

It would be unnecessary for Oswald to inform Piper of “going back up” , since Piper’s job is mainly to find employees  Inside the building as  directed by Truly. Piper, unless informed of departure from the building by an employee, would thus naturally search the floors on presumption the employee was still in the building.

If the “going out” statement is more probable one made by Oswald, then the reason Is likely to get his lunch either from inside the paper bag package Oswald put somewhere in the annex roofed part of loading dock or to go buy some lunch

Either way, between 12:01 ans 12:14, Oswald is not seen on the 1st floor.

At 12:15 approx , Oswald is seen sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom
By Carolyn Arnold

This suggests the following speculative timeline

12:01 Oswald has left TSBD to go “out” possibly to buy his lunch. The temperature is about 65 with wind gust up to 15mph , so if Oswald was acclimated to Texas 90 degree plus temperature , wearing his brown shirt and jacket to go outside is reasonably probable

12:10 Oswald is returning to TSBD with his lunch and from
some distance away, sees James Jarman and Harold Norman exiting back door of TSBD dock as they go around the NE corner of TSBD. They do not see Oswald however, as they are facing SE heading along Houston st.

12:12, Oswald enters TSBD and ascends to 2nd floor landing to check if the 2nd floor lunchroom is clear. He may have been seen by Sarah Stanton at this time carrying a Dr. Pepper ( vaguely remembered by a relative of Sarah  as a “Pepsi”) Oswald therefore went up the staircase to 3rd floor, waited a few more minutes , then came back down and saw the 2nd floor lunchroom clear

12:14 Oswald sits down at a table in the 2nd floor lunch room, and takes off both his jacket and brown shirt together , leaving shirt sleeves inside the jacket sleeves, as is very easy for slender person with oversize jacket and shirt to do. Jacket and shirt left therefore hanging on the back of the chair.

12:15 Oswald seen sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom , by Carolyn Arnold
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2020, 05:48:04 AM
How is the Zeon proposed timeline relevant to the statement   “went outside to watch the P. Parade?

In becomes relevant if the Mrs Reid encounter with Oswald in just a white T-shirt and carrying an unopened coke in hand is an encounter happening BEFORE Oswald meets Baker/Truly

If Oswald was in 2nd floor lunchroom
In just a T-shirt, having removed jacket and Brownshirt together , from
12:15 to 12:30, then it is probable he heard sirens going off about 10 secs post shots and more sirens added by 20 secs post shots. If Oswald had just bought a coke from the machine at the moment that sirens were heard, that might explain not immediately opening the bottle at the machine, and would also explain why Oswald went into the office in just his T-shirt and carrying the unopened bottle with him. Oswald was simply making a quick check of the office to ask about the sirens.

Contrary to Mrs Reid’s statement implying simultaneous opening of doors by herself (front) and Oswald (rear) , it is more probable that Oswald had already entered the office about 20 secs prior to Mrs Reid entering approx 50 sec post shots

Given Mrs Reid’s description of Mr Campbell leaving her and seeing people BEGINNING to fall, this would occur approx not later that 5 sec post shots as people can be seen in Z-film and Nix film  (Hudson, Newman’s etc)

Therefore , if Mrs Reid has left the curb on Elm st by 10 sec post shots, she could easily have made it back to the 2nd floor office front door by 50 to 60 sec post shots

An encounter with Oswald therefore as Oswald has already traversed about 75 ft (3/4ths) across the floor, would explain Oswald simply continuing forward and past Mrs Reid to exit the front office door approx 60 sec post shots

At this point,  60 secs post shots Oswald now has found the answer to why the sirens are still on going. This is when he decides to “go out to see what was happening in the P. Parade”

However. Before Oswald does this, he decides he should go back to the lunchroom to get his brown shirt and jacket. Thus, Oswald travels down the outer hallways (80ft) , passes thru  the vestibule going thru 2 doors, at approx 80-85 sec post shots. The opening anclosing of 2 doors with windows cause the flickering of light which was the stimulus that caught Bakers eye , and he moved over to see Oswald walking “away” in the lunchroom

Oswald was walking TOWARDs the table and chair that he left his jacket and shirt together hanging on back of chair, thus why he was walking “away” from Baker.

5 sec later approx, as Baker enters the lunchroom Oswald has

A. Put down the unopened coke he was carrying on a counter top or table , a necessary action in order to put on jacket and shirt . This neither Baker, nor Truly saw anything in Oswalds hands

B. The jacket and shirt has just been put on in 5 seconds as is possible for slender person like Oswald to do if jacket and shirt were oversized. This the perception by Baker if a jacket/ shirt “loosely” hanging.

Why did not Geneva Hines see Oswald the skeptic asks? Because Geneva Hone was in the room she finally was able to get into to look out a SE window at the motorcade. And that room was the SE corner 2nd floor women’s restroom
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2020, 05:54:43 AM
Therefore, if the reader has skipped thru Zion’s theoretical Alternative Teid encounter, the Conclusion is that the “went out to watch the P. parade” statement is not exactly what Oswald may have stated while being interrogated. It is also possible that Oswald DID actually mention an encounter with Mrs Reid describing a sequence similar to Zeon’s deductive timeline and this was purposely omitted by Fritz
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2020, 11:50:58 AM
At this point,  60 secs post shots Oswald now has found the answer to why the sirens are still on going. This is when he decides to “go out to see what was happening in the P. Parade”

If you're going to peddle a fantasy, Mr Mason, don't put fake quote marks around it!

"Then went outside to watch P. Parade."

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 28, 2020, 01:37:07 AM

12:10 Oswald is returning to TSBD with his lunch and from
some distance away, sees James Jarman and Harold Norman exiting back door of TSBD dock as they go around the NE corner of TSBD. They do not see Oswald however, as they are facing SE heading along Houston st.


Where do you get the idea Jarman and Norman exited the 'back door' from?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on October 01, 2020, 06:12:09 AM
There are some commonsense assumptions here but I'd like to make a quick point about the white porcelain cup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbz07Mvc/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
This Gif shows two images from Wiegman. It shows the white 'glowing' object being moved up and down. The first frame is the one that shows the object being held up to the face of prayer-blob, the second has the object in the lower position. In his WC testimony Bill Shelley states he went for lunch about 11:50am, went to his office on the first floor and ate part of his lunch then went out front, on the landing of the steps just outside the glass door because their were already some people outside, one of whom was Sarah Stanton.
How long does it take Shelley to get to his room and eat part of his lunch? 10 to 15 minutes seems fairly reasonable, which would mean Stanton is out there already by 12:00 to 12:05pm. The above Wiegman frames are taken seconds after the shooting around 12:30. It's just an opinion but I'm not convinced Stanton would still be drinking her coffee up to half an hour later. Maybe she liked it cold and made it last a long time. Maybe she went back up to the second floor lunchroom and came back down with a coffee just before the shooting.
Personally I have a different idea about the object in prayer-blob's hand but the images are so sketchy I find it impossible to be definitive.

 :D :D :D

More phony Sarah Stanton claims again.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 01, 2020, 10:08:27 AM
:D :D :D

More phony Sarah Stanton claims again.

Wow.

The post you cited is over two weeks old and 24 replies ago. That's real finger-on-the-pulse stuff right there  8)

I assume you're a fat-Oswald-on-the-steps kind of guy. Good old fat, invisible, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Maybe you're the one who can provide at least one tiny piece of evidence that puts Oswald on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
I doubt it though.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on October 01, 2020, 10:14:21 AM

 That Stanton nonsense was debunked long ago. Sad that some still believe it.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 01, 2020, 10:29:21 AM
That Stanton nonsense was debunked long ago. Sad that some still believe it.

Fred

Nice one. Can you point out to me where it was debunked and I'll drop it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 01, 2020, 08:17:52 PM
I assume you're a fat-Oswald-on-the-steps kind of guy. Good old fat, invisible, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Like you've demonstrated that prayer-blob is fat.   :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2020, 03:07:23 AM
Like you've demonstrated that prayer-blob is fat.   :D
Sure looks fat to me  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LNPbRmh/shadow2-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on October 02, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
Right here on this forum. Look up earlier threads and posts by John and Alan.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2020, 10:59:01 AM
Right here on this forum. Look up earlier threads and posts by John and Alan.

Fred
That's really vague Fred. Rather than have me spend days trawling through the forum just tell me what it is that debunks the Stanton ID. You're the one who said it's been debunked so obviously you know.
Unless, of course, you know nothing about it which would make your claim rather strange.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on October 02, 2020, 11:14:31 AM

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.0.html)



https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html)


Fred

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2020, 11:53:51 AM
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.0.html)



https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html)


Fred

Still hours of reading Fred (which I will get to in my own time).
Just tell me what it is that debunks the Stanton ID or say you don't know.
But don't claim something like that when you don't know, then pretend that you do.
It's important that avenues of investigation aren't shut off for no reason. I think the claim for it being Oswald on the steps is non-existent. There is literally nothing to make the ID yet others are quite ferocious in their defence of this non-idea. It smacks of intellectual bullying (I use the word 'intellectual' very loosely).
The case for Stanton as prayer-blob is many times more superior to that of Oswald (IMHO) but it seems like those who shout the loudest are the ones who get heard.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 04, 2020, 03:02:15 AM
Still hours of reading Fred (which I will get to in my own time).
Just tell me what it is that debunks the Stanton ID or say you don't know.
But don't claim something like that when you don't know, then pretend that you do.
It's important that avenues of investigation aren't shut off for no reason. I think the claim for it being Oswald on the steps is non-existent. There is literally nothing to make the ID yet others are quite ferocious in their defence of this non-idea. It smacks of intellectual bullying (I use the word 'intellectual' very loosely).
The case for Stanton as prayer-blob is many times more superior to that of Oswald (IMHO) but it seems like those who shout the loudest are the ones who get heard.
Mr O'meara:
There's still a search function on this site, I do believe.

Also, for a guy who just joined this site in..June? of this year, you certainly seem to have strong opinions and, by your own account, a great deal of knowledge.
Have you been researching the JFK assassination for a lot longer than 4 months, through other means?

For the record, the Sarah Stanton, Prayer Man, whomever is a pointless diversion, as is any attempt to ascertain what went on in Oswald's interrogation; those that were present certainly shared less than the truth, there's no audio recording, and everybody involved is long dead.

Before I even thought of joining one of these JFK sites, let alone commenting, I spent several years reading. And reading. And reading.

But, "you shine on, you crazy diamond."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 04, 2020, 04:44:07 AM
Returning to Alan Fords theory , (as I apologize for my own theory interrupting such),  may I offer the option that Oswald never actually stepped outside of the TSBD entrance door , and that he was actually just inside the glass partition and that his image might have been captured in the original Weigman film, thus the reason for any shadowing added (if it’s truly alteration as opposed to simply a film processing glitche)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 04, 2020, 02:40:03 PM
Mr O'meara:
There's still a search function on this site, I do believe.

Also, for a guy who just joined this site in..June? of this year, you certainly seem to have strong opinions and, by your own account, a great deal of knowledge.
Have you been researching the JFK assassination for a lot longer than 4 months, through other means?

For the record, the Sarah Stanton, Prayer Man, whomever is a pointless diversion, as is any attempt to ascertain what went on in Oswald's interrogation; those that were present certainly shared less than the truth, there's no audio recording, and everybody involved is long dead.

Before I even thought of joining one of these JFK sites, let alone commenting, I spent several years reading. And reading. And reading.

But, "you shine on, you crazy diamond."

No need to be aggressive John.

Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected)
But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 04, 2020, 04:53:28 PM
No need to be aggressive John.

Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected)
But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility.

Good one
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 04, 2020, 07:17:11 PM
Sure looks fat to me  8)

Well, I guess that settles it!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 04, 2020, 07:19:22 PM
The case for Stanton as prayer-blob is many times more superior to that of Oswald (IMHO) but it seems like those who shout the loudest are the ones who get heard.

It’s so “superior” that only you and a serial fabricator named Brian Doyle are convinced by it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 04, 2020, 08:16:42 PM
It’s so “superior” that only you and a serial fabricator named Brian Doyle are convinced by it.
This is exactly the poisonous attitude I'm taking a stand against. Just because Doyle was hated by other researchers then anything he advocated is 'wrong'. I totally disagree with this mentality.
You can make as many of your snide comments as you wish John but if you don't think the case for Stanton being prayer-blob is superior to the case for Oswald being prayer-blob then say so.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 04, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
This is exactly the poisonous attitude I'm taking a stand against. Just because Doyle was hated by other researchers then anything he advocated is 'wrong'. I totally disagree with this mentality.
You can make as many of your snide comments as you wish John but if you don't think the case for Stanton being prayer-blob is superior to the case for Oswald being prayer-blob then say so.

It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 05, 2020, 03:50:15 AM
No need to be aggressive John.

Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected)
But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility.
Mr O'meara: there was nothing " aggressive" in my post.

The " search" function is still functioning.

You seem to have missed the point of my post.
Operating on the maxim " the fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool" ( The Bard), I chose to educate myself.
You are welcome to come here, and speak freely.
Your questions were answered, long ago, by folks much wiser than I will ever be.
Your complaint about " having to search through lengthy threads" speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 05, 2020, 08:27:06 AM
It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up.
Please remind me which arguments I've used that were either false or made up concerning the identification of Stanton. I'm assuming that's what you think as I'm "as bad as Doyle".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 06, 2020, 02:06:43 AM
As far as I know, you've claimed no evidence other than that you think it looks like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 06, 2020, 08:54:35 AM
As far as I know, you've claimed no evidence other than that you think it looks like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.
You have an incredibly short memory John.
I composed a list of witnesses who were stood behind, alongside and in front of prayer-blob and of those who, on returning to the TSBD, would've have walked right by that position:

Judy McCully
Buell Wesley Frazier
Bill Shelley
Billt Lovelady
Joe Molina
Pauline Sanders
Otis Williams
Roy Edward Lewis
Roy Truly
Karen Westbrook
Karen Hicks
Gloria Calvery
Carol Reed
Georgia Hendirx
Jeraldean Reid
Carolyn Arnold

16 witnesses, all who knew Oswald by sight, all with an excellent opportunity to see Oswald in the prayer-blob position and all who, when specifically asked if they saw Oswald around the time of the assassination, denied seeing him.
I argued that, if it had been Oswald in the prayer-blob position, it would have been incredibly unlikely that not one of these witnesses put him there. You, of course, twisted my words (no shock there) to make out I was arguing that that if none of these witnesses saw him there then he wasn't there, even though I'd specifically stated that was not my argument, that I was arguing for the unlikelihood of such a scenario.
Don't you remember John?
It wasn't that long ago  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 06, 2020, 11:11:29 PM
What you think is "unlikely" is not evidence of anything.

And I'm not sure how witnesses not remembering seeing Oswald tells you that prayer-blob is Sarah Stanton.

And by the way, your list is contrived, because you don't know if prayer-blob was in position when most of these people returned to the building, because you don't know when they returned to the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 07, 2020, 01:53:58 AM
And by the way, your list is contrived, because you don't know if prayer-blob was in position when most of these people returned to the building, because you don't know when they returned to the building.

"most of these people" were stood around the prayer-blob position at the time of the assassination (10 to be precise)
Of those who returned to the building, Truly arrived within seconds, as did Gloria Calvery and co. who ran back to the TSBD after the shooting, as did Ruth Hendrix.

Quote
What you think is "unlikely" is not evidence of anything.

Typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I stated my opinion constitutes evidence. What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

Quote
And I'm not sure how witnesses not remembering seeing Oswald tells you that prayer-blob is Sarah Stanton.

Another typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I suggested that because not one of these many witnesses didn't see Oswald on the steps, this means it must be Sarah Stanton. Nowhere.

So looking forward to your next serving of  BS:

(https://i.postimg.cc/X7XvCQX0/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 07, 2020, 03:11:09 AM
"most of these people" were stood around the prayer-blob position at the time of the assassination (10 to be precise)
Of those who returned to the building, Truly arrived within seconds, as did Gloria Calvery and co. who ran back to the TSBD after the shooting, as did Ruth Hendrix.

Bull.  You don't know how many seconds it took Calvery to run back.  Or Westbrook, or Hicks, or Reid, or Arnold.

Quote
Typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I stated my opinion constitutes evidence. What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

Another typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I suggested that because not one of these many witnesses didn't see Oswald on the steps, this means it must be Sarah Stanton. Nowhere.

Then your entire post is one giant non-sequitur, because you posted it in response to my saying that every bit of evidence that Doyle presented for prayer-blob being Stanton was false or made-up, then you asked me what evidence you've provided for prayer-blob being Stanton that was false or made-up and I replied that you have provided none other than that you thought it looked like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.  Then you went off in the weeds and started talking about whether people saw Oswald or not.

So the  BS: here is all coming from you.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 07, 2020, 07:55:43 PM
Bull.  You don't know how many seconds it took Calvery to run back.  Or Westbrook, or Hicks, or Reid, or Arnold.

Calvery and co. are back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished.

Quote
Then your entire post is one giant non-sequitur, because you posted it in response to my saying that every bit of evidence that Doyle presented for prayer-blob being Stanton was false or made-up, then you asked me what evidence you've provided for prayer-blob being Stanton that was false or made-up and I replied that you have provided none other than that you thought it looked like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.  Then you went off in the weeds and started talking about whether people saw Oswald or not.

So the  BS: here is all coming from you.

Just to clarify the situation. You posted:

"It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up."

As you were comparing me to Doyle I asked "which arguments I've used that were either false or made up ". Because you couldn't find such any arguments, rather than say so you introduce the word "evidence". A typical  BS: tactic on your behalf.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 07, 2020, 10:44:46 PM
Calvery and co. are back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished.

So you claim, based on yet another dubious identification.  By the way, who exactly is "and co."?

Quote
Just to clarify the situation. You posted:

"It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up."

As you were comparing me to Doyle

When did I compare you to Doyle?  I just said that you're the only one here who agrees with his unsubstantiated conclusion about prayer-blob.

Quote
I asked "which arguments I've used that were either false or made up ". Because you couldn't find such any arguments, rather than say so you introduce the word "evidence". A typical  BS: tactic on your behalf.

I never said you used any arguments that are false or made up -- I said that Doyle did.  You didn't claim to have any actual evidence for prayer-blob being Stanton.  Just that you imagine that it looks like a "fat lady".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 08, 2020, 04:10:59 AM
Mr O'meara: Buell Wesley Frazier was interrogated and bullied by Fritz and friends for several hours on Friday night. His statements are worthless; he was just trying to save his own a#$. ( Not that I blame him; Fritz and Henry railroaded many innocent folks to the penitentiary...and beyond.)

What about the janitor on the ground floor? He places Oswald by the  "glass doors" in front, less than one minute after the assassination. I believe it's Eddie Piper?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 08:56:26 AM
So you claim, based on yet another dubious identification.  By the way, who exactly is "and co."?

Dubious? How so?
At the time of the assassination Gloria Calvery is stood feet away from the President as the first shot hits him. With her are Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook and Carol Reed, work colleagues from room 203 in the TSBD. These ladies are the "and co'"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 08:58:57 AM
Mr O'meara: Buell Wesley Frazier was interrogated and bullied by Fritz and friends for several hours on Friday night. His statements are worthless; he was just trying to save his own a#$. ( Not that I blame him; Fritz and Henry railroaded many innocent folks to the penitentiary...and beyond.)

What about the janitor on the ground floor? He places Oswald by the  "glass doors" in front, less than one minute after the assassination. I believe it's Eddie Piper?

Hi John,

Would really like to know more about this janitor who saw Oswald by the glass doors less than a minute after the assassination. Where can I find out about this as I feel it might be important.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 05:13:44 PM
Dubious? How so?

It's literally based on Tommy Graves squinting and imagining that he's seeing a stripe on her "skirt".  Never mind the fact that he doesn't actually know what Calvery was wearing that day.

Quote
At the time of the assassination Gloria Calvery is stood feet away from the President as the first shot hits him. With her are Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook and Carol Reed, work colleagues from room 203 in the TSBD. These ladies are the "and co'"

Yes, and how did you identify Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 07:46:29 PM
It's literally based on Tommy Graves squinting and imagining that he's seeing a stripe on her "skirt".  Never mind the fact that he doesn't actually know what Calvery was wearing that day.

Not really. Tommy and Sandy Larsen have put together a compelling argument for the identification of Calvery based on testimonial/photographic/video evidence. It's not, as you constantly suggest, a question of trying to identify anyone directly from the Darnell clip.

Quote
Yes, and how did you identify Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds?

Karen Westbrook Scranton talks about them returning to the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 08:22:32 PM
Not really. Tommy and Sandy Larsen have put together a compelling argument for the identification of Calvery based on testimonial/photographic/video evidence. It's not, as you constantly suggest, a question of trying to identify anyone directly from the Darnell clip.

Yes really.  The "compelling argument" is that they think they see a stripe.

Quote
Karen Westbrook Scranton talks about them returning to the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

When did she say who she returned with or how quickly?  But it's interesting that you bring up Westbrook, since she identified herself and Calvery in the Z film in a different spot than where Tommy Graves wants them to be.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 09:27:15 PM

When did she say who she returned with or how quickly?


She refers to herself and her work colleagues collectively when she says "We returned to the building", at some point after that she refers to running into the TSBD

Quote
But it's interesting that you bring up Westbrook, since she identified herself and Calvery in the Z film in a different spot than where Tommy Graves wants them to be.
The only interesting thing is that she doesn't know Gloria Calverys' name. She identifies two Carols when one remained in the office. She identifies Carol Reed as the non-caucasian Stella Jacobs.
What's really interesting is that you brought this non-identification up. Is this your preference for the Calvery ID?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 10:03:59 PM
She refers to herself and her work colleagues collectively when she says "We returned to the building",

You don't know who "we" refers to.

Quote
at some point after that she refers to running into the TSBD

Right.  No indication of how soon after the shots.

Quote
The only interesting thing is that she doesn't know Gloria Calverys' name.

She refers to her as "Calver" or possibly "Calvert".  But she worked with her every day and knew her well in 1963.

Quote
She identifies two Carols when one remained in the office. She identifies Carol Reed as the non-caucasian Stella Jacobs.

Correction:  she refers to a person who you are speculating to be Stella Jacobs as "I believe that's Carol Ann Reed".  There's no doubt in her mind that the person standing next to her is Gloria.  Could she possibly be wrong?  Sure.  But she's more authoritative than speculation from Squinty McSquinterton.

Quote
What's really interesting is that you brought this non-identification up. Is this your preference for the Calvery ID?

I brought it up because you trotted out Westbrook to support your claim that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, Reed were "back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished", even though Westbrook said nothing of the kind.  Then you turned around and accused her of misindentifying people.  So is she an authoritative source in your mind or not?  Or just when it suits you?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 10:27:40 PM
You don't know who "we" refers to.

The "we" can only refer to her work colleagues

Quote
Right.  No indication of how soon after the shots.

You've misunderstood what I was saying. At some point later in the interview she refers to running

Quote
I brought it up because you trotted out Westbrook to support your claim that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, Reed were "back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished", even though Westbrook said nothing of the kind.

She states that immediately after the shots there was pandemonium which is when they returned to the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 10:56:47 PM
The "we" can only refer to her work colleagues

All "We" has to mean is her and at least one other unspecified person.

Quote
She states that immediately after the shots there was pandemonium which is when they returned to the building.

Sorry, no.  She doesn't say that she returned to the building during the "pandemonium".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 09, 2020, 07:37:10 PM
All "We" has to mean is her and at least one other unspecified person.

In her interview Westbrook refers to herself and her work colleagues collectively over and over again. Here are a handful of examples, there are many more:
"...and because it was towards the end of the parade we knew that we could go down a little bit close to the underpass...we could stand directly on the kerb and get a first-hand view."
"...the car kind of came a little bit closer to the kerb where we were standing."
"...we were waving and screaming and so excited."
"We were on the kerb here, and she was leaning over the President and pulling her hair out of her eyes as they were waving to us,"

She is clearly referring to herself and her work colleagues. It is unreasonable to assume otherwise.

Quote
Sorry, no.  She doesn't say that she returned to the building during the "pandemonium".

"...there was a quiet calm while the shots were fired and then, when everybody realised the shots were fired, the car sped on, then it erupted in pandemonium and everybody started running every place, so we came back to the building..."

We're definitely going to have to disagree on that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on October 10, 2020, 01:15:58 AM

The roof door was locked from the inside and could only be opened by someone on the inside which is what they did.[/b]

My response: How do you explain away the fact that it was locked from the inside when Dallas Sheriff John Wiseman got there IF the lying rooftop tandem were really upon the roof as they said? There is no other explanation but they simply lied. It's that simple really.

Moreover, Baker further steps into his own horse manure (Oops) by sharing that he also saw Inspector Sawyer (at the same time he was suppose to be upon that otherwise locked roof w/Roy Truly. Inspector Sawyer merely spent from 12:34PM to 12:37PM on his sojourn into the building, up to the 4th floor via an elevator at the front entrance of the building and back down again. His words, Mr. Nessan, not mine. Do the math yourself sir: the lying rooftop tandem said they were upon the roof no more than 10 minutes. So, they want us to believe two impossibilities:

*(1) They magically Locked the roof from the inside while also stationed upon their lie (the roof); and, (2) Baker is so magical he says he encounters Inspector Sawyer while still upon that same lie 3x the amount of time the Inspector is anywhere for him to encounter.

My apologies for late response (originally posed to me way back upon the 30th page of this thread). Found myself sidetracked with a closer examination upon the Charles Mentesana film, where I believe I may have found the wrongly accused lingering around in Dealey Plaza for the 5-10 minutes he said he did w/Bill Shelley.

Should you make a response, here's fair warning sir, I won't be in to respond until next month. For now I will continue to study the Mentesana film ====>


where I'm paying close attention between the 39 sec to 45 sec mark. There's two gentlemen standing together on the lower right-hand side of the screen. Though one is wearing a suit like Bill Shelley, aside from his hairdo style, there's not much there to go on; but my main attention is upon the individual standing to his left wearing similar clothing as the wrongly accused when compared to the Texas Theatre images of his arrest.

Perhaps someone with the means to do so could reach out to Marina Oswald-Porter to share the Mentesana film with her... tp make a determination one way or the other given the man's peculiar mannerisms (hands on the hips posture etc). Meanwhile, I will be making every effort to freeze a few of the frames to match his head shape and rear hairline to the images of the wrongly accused as he is being escorted into DPD headquarters. 

Again, Mr. Nessan, the lying rooftop tandem lied about their exploits upon that otherwise locked roof ---->

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

Name of Compainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy

Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date Nov 23, 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I asks some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor.


The lying rooftop tandem also lied about a phantom 2nd floor encounter w/the wrongly accused as well. If you do nothing else, Mr. Nessan, please read Baker's same day affidavit over and over again ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


The wrongly accused merely weighed 130lbs, nowhere near 160; moreover, what part of walking away from a stairway has anything to do with inside the lunchroom?




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 10, 2020, 02:28:12 AM
Something I found interesting in the Karen Westbrook Scranton interview:
"Our offices were around the building and then there was a centre office building, a large bull-pen kind of office, on the second floor that was the office of the Texas Schoolbook Depository and they had a supervisor in there called Mrs Reid, And when we were milling around while the police had us locked in and so forth, we were milling around, Mrs Reid said that she - when everybody was walking and milling and so forth - that Lee came to the door with a Coke in his hand and said, "What's all the excitement about?", and Mrs Reid said she told him, "Oh my God, someone has shot the President."    29:21 - 29:57

In her CE 1381 Westbrook states she left her office about 1:30pm. So at some point in the hour between JFK being shot and Westbrook leaving the TSBD she heard Mrs Jeraldean Reid talking about her encounter with Oswald.
In her WC testimony Mrs Reid describes how she ran back into the building straight after the shooting and her interaction with Oswald. A reconstruction of her movements timed it as approximately two minutes between the end of the shooting and running into Oswald.

Considering prayer-blob is seen in Darnell approximately 30 seconds after the shooting I find it incredibly difficult to believe someone could get from that position, race up to the second floor lunchroom, buy a Coke then bump into Mrs Reid seconds later.

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 11, 2020, 04:38:18 PM
Something I found interesting in the Karen Westbrook Scranton interview:
"Our offices were around the building and then there was a centre office building, a large bull-pen kind of office, on the second floor that was the office of the Texas Schoolbook Depository and they had a supervisor in there called Mrs Reid, And when we were milling around while the police had us locked in and so forth, we were milling around, Mrs Reid said that she - when everybody was walking and milling and so forth - that Lee came to the door with a Coke in his hand and said, "What's all the excitement about?", and Mrs Reid said she told him, "Oh my God, someone has shot the President."    29:21 - 29:57

In her CE 1381 Westbrook states she left her office about 1:30pm. So at some point in the hour between JFK being shot and Westbrook leaving the TSBD she heard Mrs Jeraldean Reid talking about her encounter with Oswald.
In her WC testimony Mrs Reid describes how she ran back into the building straight after the shooting and her interaction with Oswald. A reconstruction of her movements timed it as approximately two minutes between the end of the shooting and running into Oswald.

Considering prayer-blob is seen in Darnell approximately 30 seconds after the shooting I find it incredibly difficult to believe someone could get from that position, race up to the second floor lunchroom, buy a Coke then bump into Mrs Reid seconds later.

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)

There are two important aspects to Karen Westbrook Scranton's revelation concerning Mrs Reid in her "Living History" interview. Firstly, it corroborates Reid's version of meeting Oswald with a coke in his hand in the second floor office. Secondly, it is a first-hand eyewitness  account that this story was first told before Oswald was even arrested, let alone before Oswald confirmed the coke story in his interrogations. It can hardly be assumed that this story was being 'planted' before Oswald was arrested. It seems highly probable that Reid was being truthful in her account of this interaction with Oswald.
With this in mind let's take a closer look at Reid's version of events. In her WC testimony Reid states that she had her lunch in the second floor lunchroom, she was one of the last to leave, she went out front and stood on the steps for a few minutes then, when she saw the motorcade turning on to Houston, moved closer to the street, where O. C. Campbell and Roy Truly were standing. Within moments of the shots she ran up to her office where she had her encounter with Oswald. In a reconstruction of her movements she retraced and timed her steps three times, the upshot of which was a timing of approximately two minutes between the shots ending and meeting Oswald on the second floor. It can safely be assumed that, as Oswald was entering her office at the far end with a full bottle of Coke in his hand he had just come from the second floor lunchroom.
Pauline Sanders, in an FBI interview taken on the 11/24/63, states that on that very morning:

"she called Geraldine Reid...who told her that the police officer who first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr Truly...and Oswald were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into Oswald's stomach but Truly advised the police officer that Oswald worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to Reid, Oswald went to the main office and Reid, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told Oswald that the President had been shot. According to Sanders, Mrs Reid claimed that Oswald just mumbled something and then left the office."

It must be remembered, these are not Reid's words, it is a third-hand account via Pauline Sanders and agents Basham and Anderson. It is clearly a version of the second floor encounter but it is stressed Reid "had not observed the initial incident with the police officer". I doubt Reid's version had Truly lunching with Oswald as she was stood outside with Truly at the time of the shooting. I also doubt that the officer would've come across the two men having lunch and decided to stick his gun in Oswald's stomach whilst accepting Truly's authority.

So it would appear we have a corroborated first-hand eye-witness account of Oswald being on the second floor seconds after the shooting which itself confirms, to a certain extent, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker.
                                                     


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 13, 2020, 03:07:27 AM
There are two important aspects to Karen Westbrook Scranton's revelation concerning Mrs Reid in her "Living History" interview. Firstly, it corroborates Reid's version of meeting Oswald with a coke in his hand in the second floor office. Secondly, it is a first-hand eyewitness  account that this story was first told before Oswald was even arrested, let alone before Oswald confirmed the coke story in his interrogations. It can hardly be assumed that this story was being 'planted' before Oswald was arrested. It seems highly probable that Reid was being truthful in her account of this interaction with Oswald.
With this in mind let's take a closer look at Reid's version of events. In her WC testimony Reid states that she had her lunch in the second floor lunchroom, she was one of the last to leave, she went out front and stood on the steps for a few minutes then, when she saw the motorcade turning on to Houston, moved closer to the street, where O. C. Campbell and Roy Truly were standing. Within moments of the shots she ran up to her office where she had her encounter with Oswald. In a reconstruction of her movements she retraced and timed her steps three times, the upshot of which was a timing of approximately two minutes between the shots ending and meeting Oswald on the second floor. It can safely be assumed that, as Oswald was entering her office at the far end with a full bottle of Coke in his hand he had just come from the second floor lunchroom.
Pauline Sanders, in an FBI interview taken on the 11/24/63, states that on that very morning:

"she called Geraldine Reid...who told her that the police officer who first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr Truly...and Oswald were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into Oswald's stomach but Truly advised the police officer that Oswald worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to Reid, Oswald went to the main office and Reid, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told Oswald that the President had been shot. According to Sanders, Mrs Reid claimed that Oswald just mumbled something and then left the office."

It must be remembered, these are not Reid's words, it is a third-hand account via Pauline Sanders and agents Basham and Anderson. It is clearly a version of the second floor encounter but it is stressed Reid "had not observed the initial incident with the police officer". I doubt Reid's version had Truly lunching with Oswald as she was stood outside with Truly at the time of the shooting. I also doubt that the officer would've come across the two men having lunch and decided to stick his gun in Oswald's stomach whilst accepting Truly's authority.

So it would appear we have a corroborated first-hand eye-witness account of Oswald being on the second floor seconds after the shooting which itself confirms, to a certain extent, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker.
                                                     

Except that Baker, in his first day statement, says third or fourth floor on the stairway - which seems more damning of Oswald, i.e. closer to sixth floor. Why the change to second floor lunchroom?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 13, 2020, 08:58:49 AM
Except that Baker, in his first day statement, says third or fourth floor on the stairway - which seems more damning of Oswald, i.e. closer to sixth floor. Why the change to second floor lunchroom?

What's this got to do with the corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald by Karen Westbrook Scranton. Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald minutes after the shooting and before Oswald was arrested. Reid witnessed Oswald on the second floor with a coke in his hand seconds after the shooting. It's got nothing to do with Baker. All it does is suggest Baker made a mistake about which floor.
It also implies that Oswald was coming from the second floor lunchroom at a time that fits perfectly with the Baker/Truly reconstruction of their encounter with Oswald.
The important thing, though, is that Westbrook Scranton provides corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 14, 2020, 05:31:28 AM
What's this got to do with the corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald by Karen Westbrook Scranton. Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald minutes after the shooting and before Oswald was arrested. Reid witnessed Oswald on the second floor with a coke in his hand seconds after the shooting. It's got nothing to do with Baker. All it does is suggest Baker made a mistake about which floor.
It also implies that Oswald was coming from the second floor lunchroom at a time that fits perfectly with the Baker/Truly reconstruction of their encounter with Oswald.
The important thing, though, is that Westbrook Scranton provides corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald.
Why is it that Baker was " mistaken" as to which floor he encountered Oswald on, but Reid is not " mistaken" in her account? ( Scranton's testimony is hearsay, by the way.)

And, again, moving the Oswald encounter down a few floors seems counterintuitive to the official story, i.e. the third or fourth floor is closer to the sniper's nest, therefore much more damning. The second floor lunchroom encounter is an odd fabrication - wish I could figure out its purpose.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 12:04:12 PM
Why is it that Baker was " mistaken" as to which floor he encountered Oswald on, but Reid is not " mistaken" in her account? ( Scranton's testimony is hearsay, by the way.)

And, again, moving the Oswald encounter down a few floors seems counterintuitive to the official story, i.e. the third or fourth floor is closer to the sniper's nest, therefore much more damning. The second floor lunchroom encounter is an odd fabrication - wish I could figure out its purpose.
Baker could've been mistaken because he'd never been in the building, was full of adrenaline, gun drawn, anticipating meeting an armed assailant, racing up and down a building he had to recall later.
Reid worked in the building. Why should she have been mistaken?
Isn't that obvious?
Scranton confirms Reid is telling her version of the Oswald encounter immediately after the shooting, before Oswald is even arrested.
Oswald confirms this story in his interrogation (apparently).
This confirms Baker's story even though he's mistaken about the floor.
All of which is confirmed by Truly.
Scranton, Reid, Oswald, Baker, Truly.
Also, the timing of Reid's account fits perfectly with that of Baker and Truly.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 10:30:41 PM
She is clearly referring to herself and her work colleagues. It is unreasonable to assume otherwise.

It's unreasonable to assume that these 4 people all marched (or ran) together in lockstep after the assassination.

Quote
"...there was a quiet calm while the shots were fired and then, when everybody realised the shots were fired, the car sped on, then it erupted in pandemonium and everybody started running every place, so we came back to the building..."

We're definitely going to have to disagree on that.

And yet somehow you know that they were all back at the building "in less than 30 seconds".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 10:36:53 PM
Considering prayer-blob is seen in Darnell approximately 30 seconds after the shooting I find it incredibly difficult to believe someone could get from that position, race up to the second floor lunchroom, buy a Coke then bump into Mrs Reid seconds later.

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)

You finding something "hard to believe" does not constitute "evidence".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 10:45:14 PM
There are two important aspects to Karen Westbrook Scranton's revelation concerning Mrs Reid in her "Living History" interview. Firstly, it corroborates Reid's version of meeting Oswald with a coke in his hand in the second floor office.

No, actually it doesn't.  It just corroborates that Reid told the same story.  It's not an independent account.

Quote
So it would appear we have a corroborated first-hand eye-witness account of Oswald being on the second floor seconds after the shooting which itself confirms, to a certain extent, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker.                                                 

No, not even to any extent.  Mrs Reid didn't know first-hand that Oswald came from the lunchroom or that there was an encounter there.  And in Westbrook's account, there is no mention of where Reid was when she saw Oswald or how long after the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 11:35:12 PM
It's unreasonable to assume that these 4 people all marched (or ran) together in lockstep after the assassination.

Agreed. They were not in lockstep.

Quote
And yet somehow you know that they were all back at the building "in less than 30 seconds".

Running back to the TSBD from the site of the assassination would get you there in well under 30 seconds. Probably half that time.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 11:36:02 PM
You finding something "hard to believe" does not constitute "evidence".

Agreed. I didn't suggest it was.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 11:49:08 PM
No, actually it doesn't.  It just corroborates that Reid told the same story.  It's not an independent account.

It was poorly phrased. It does indeed corroborate that Reid told the story of her encounter with Oswald before Oswald was arrested.
I'm obviously not suggesting that it was an independent account. That's a silly thing to say.

Quote
No, not even to any extent.  Mrs Reid didn't know first-hand that Oswald came from the lunchroom or that there was an encounter there.  And in Westbrook's account, there is no mention of where Reid was when she saw Oswald or how long after the assassination.

To the extent that Oswald has just come from the lunchroom (full bottle of coke in hand) seconds after the shooting has finished. The Truly/Baker account of the lunchroom encounter marries perfectly with Reid's in terms of timing. The two accounts (Reid's and Truly/Baker's) corroborate each other.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 11:50:58 PM
Agreed. I didn't suggest it was.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 11:53:07 PM
To the extent that Oswald has just come from the lunchroom (full bottle of coke in hand) seconds after the shooting has finished.

But Reid wouldn't have known that he came from the lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2020, 12:24:57 AM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)

 ;D How very tricky of you.
The 'evidence' I was referring to was Scranton's corroboration of Reid telling the story of her encounter with Oswald  before Oswald was even arrested. We know from Reid this encounter took place seconds after the shooting finished.
I most certainly was not suggesting that what I found unlikely was evidence which is what you were asserting.
Nice try though  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2020, 12:26:28 AM
But Reid wouldn't have known that he came from the lunchroom.
Where else would he be coming from with a full bottle of coke in his hand?
Think it through John.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 15, 2020, 04:49:32 PM
Agreed. They were not in lockstep.

Running back to the TSBD from the site of the assassination would get you there in well under 30 seconds. Probably half that time.

Sigh.....none of them said that they ran back to the TSBD immediately after the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 15, 2020, 04:51:17 PM
;D How very tricky of you.
The 'evidence' I was referring to was Scranton's corroboration of Reid telling the story of her encounter with Oswald  before Oswald was even arrested.

How is that "evidence" that prayer-blob is not Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 15, 2020, 04:53:05 PM
Where else would he be coming from with a full bottle of coke in his hand?
Think it through John.

So that would be an assumption, right?  Just so we're clear.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:43:41 PM
So that would be an assumption, right?  Just so we're clear.

Just so we're clear John, it is an assumption.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
Sigh.....none of them said that they ran back to the TSBD immediately after the assassination.

In the interview Westbrook Scranton describes running back into the TSBD.
Both Lovelady and Shelley describe Calvery as running back to the TSBD
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:51:42 PM
How is that "evidence" that prayer-blob is not Oswald?
Reid's eye-witness account is evidence Oswald was in the second floor office with a full bottle of coke in his hands seconds after the shooting finished.
In Darnell we see prayer-blob in position 20-30 seconds after the shooting.
Reid's account places an incredible strain on the credulity of the idea that, if prayer-blob was Oswald, he could get from that position, up to the second floor lunchroom, get a full bottle of coke and appear nonchalantly strolling into the second floor office in the time allotted.
It stretches that credulity to breaking point.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:52:39 PM
So what happened to his jacket?

Think it through, Dan.

How is that related to Mrs Reid's ability to identify Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 08:37:49 PM
You're talking November 22nd, 1963, right?

yes
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 01:04:07 AM
Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.

vs.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

How many seconds later was that?

Yeah Otto, I understand the point you're making but how does Oswald not having a jacket on affect Reid's identification of him?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 01:38:19 AM
Just a follow on thought about the Reid story that Karen Westbrook Scranton tells 'starting 29:17 in the below video:


She seems unequivocal that Reid specifically mentioned Oswald in her story but looking at Reid's WC testimony, she is also equivocal that she didn't know Oswald's name on the day of the assassination so how could she be talking about him in the hour after the assassination. In her testimony she states:

Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It is some business for them.
Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but I didn't even know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.
Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

So, at some point she was shown a picture of Oswald and could then put a name to the face but I find it hard to imagine that someone had a picture of Oswald available so soon after the shooting to show TSBD employees (obviously I could be completely wrong).
On the flip side of that, if she wasn't shown a picture of Oswald before she went home she must surely have seen him on the TV at some point over the weekend and would have recognised from that and not a photo someone had shown her.
Not sure what to make of it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 10:32:43 AM
What you can make of it is that Reid is FoS.

If Oswald was a nobody that nobody cared about why would she suddenly, on the 22nd, refer to this conversation?

Geneva Hine, who remained on the 2nd floor, destroys Reid's story and that's why Hine was not part of Belin's fake reenactment which only included Reid.

Very succinctly put Otto but there are one or two issues your searing insight has overlooked.
The problem isn't Reid, it's Westbrook. Watch the interview and see what you make of it. I get the distinct impression she is absolutely certain about this incident, I don't see how she can be 'misremembering' something so specific.
As for Geneva Hine, I'm afraid you're not quite correct. As is so often the case in this arena there is a 'grey area', even in the smallest of details.
At the all important moment that Reid and Oswald are having their 'potential' interaction, Hine is not in the office. She's banging on a door elsewhere. This leads to a scenario so unlikely as to be comedic but it unfortunately exists.
And the bottom line is, you don't actually know why Hine is left out of the re-enactment although you may well be correct.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 05:16:15 PM
Why is Westbrook the  problem?

Because if Reid is FoS how can Westbrook be confirming that Reid was telling this story about the encounter with Oswald before Oswald was even arrested.

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Which might have been resolved during a reenactment.

Maybe Shmaybe (I don't know how else to respond to such a watery statement)

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Can you come up with any plausible explanation for not including Hine in a re-enactment?

I can come up with two off the top of my head:

1) The presence of Hine might have revealed something untoward about the plausibility of Reid's story
2) She wasn't there so is of no importance

[3) Something else vague and made up to suit whatever way I want to look at it]

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 05:18:28 PM
After thought - does anyone know if the FBI were showing a picture of Oswald to TSBD employees in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 06:26:04 PM
Relying on 50 old memory, not sure what you're trying to prove or disprove...

Not trying to prove or disprove anything. I still don't have a fixed opinion on much of this as every view seems to have a counter-view. I just find it interesting.

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If Reid did not know Lee's name how did she refer to Lee as Westbrook does, as "Lee"?

That's exactly the question I'm asking but I like the way you've presented it as your own insight

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"This leads to a scenario so unlikely as to be comedic" was your own assessment. Not worth a re-enactment?

Agreed, definitely worth a re-enactment, same as Adams, Styles and Dougherty. It's symptomatic of how skewed the investigation seemed to be in terms of focussing solely on Oswald's guilt (IMO)

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#1 makes sense, the others don't.

#3 seems to be most people's favourite
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 07:23:55 PM
All good. Reid's account of leaving the lunch room is hazy and her language squishy.....

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit 497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front?
Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office.

So, there were men in the lunchroom....she might have left the lunchroom returning through the office with Lee carrying his coke. My contention is that this morphed into her official story after she got primed by Truly on Saturday prior to giving affidavits. Note that Westbrook has Lee initiating the conversation, reverse of what Reid testified.

Man, that is some stretch. You must be pretty good at yoga.
The main problem there is that the lunchroom was full of the 'younger girls' who all fail to mention Oswald's presence in their CE 1381's
And what's the point of morphing something like that. If you're going to lie, just lie. No need to have a basis for it.
And Westbrook hears Reid going on about the coke bottle before Oswald gets a chance to reveal this detail himself.

One thing I do think is possible is Truly priming Reid on the Saturday. Pauline Sanders talks to Reid on Sunday morning and she is now giving some garbled version of the lunchroom encounter with Oswald, Truly and Baker even though she wasn't there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 07:52:52 PM
The main problem there is that the lunchroom was full of the 'younger girls' who all fail to mention Oswald's presence in their CE 1381's

That includes Reid and Westbrook, so what does that prove?

Lee didn't need to camp in front of the vending machine prior to getting his Coke.

All girls had left prior to Reid leaving, allowing Oswald to enter "unseen".

It doesn't 'prove' anything. It just really undermines the scenario you are proposing to such an extent that it's not worth getting into.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 09:29:52 PM
Should equally cool your excitement for Westbrook's 50 year old "hi-res" recollection of an incident that wasn't worth mentioning to the FBI in 1964 by any of the involved parities.

Don't be like that Otto, it's not like I'm pulling things out of thin air and weaving them into a completely unsupported narrative.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 10:50:09 PM
At least I didn't claim "we know" what happened, as you did a few pages back when your happy marriage quickly fell apart:

Erm....?

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Good to know you're now interested in learning stuff instead of running along with the Reid/WC two minute sprint to the second floor.

Erm....?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 02:07:10 AM
"The 'evidence' I was referring to was Scranton's corroboration of Reid telling the story of her encounter with Oswald  before Oswald was even arrested. We know from Reid this encounter took place seconds after the shooting finished."

Your attempt to prove that prayer-blob is not Oswald was straight out of the WC/LN lunchroom encounter playbook spiced up with Westbrook that couldn't get the dialogue right, even adding "whether that fits in with the timeline", and cherry picked third hand Sanders thrown in for good measure -- LOL

Better luck next time.

 :D
All because I didn't like your silly little made up story.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 01:44:01 PM
Thanks for playing.

Just a tad too dismissive of my suggestion, gave you away.

But you need to work a lot harder on that gone-in-seconds jacket for your Ried fantasy to work!

I had every right to be dismissive of your suggestion. From some dithering in Reid's WC testimony about who was in the lunchroom when she left, you came up with a scenario in which she and Oswald are leaving the lunchroom together and this morphed into the Reid encounter. It's not based on anything and I could have been really harsh about it, which I wasn't. Instead I raised some valid criticisms about it but rather than take them on board or even consider them, you just got really pissy about it and here we are.

The jacket thing isn't a problem - he took it off for no reason, Baker was mistaken, whatever - it's Reid not knowing Oswald's name on the day of the assassination that's the problem. I'm starting to think that the Truly/Baker/Oswald encounter emerged out of Reid's story and not the other way round. It seems highly likely Truly was priming Reid with his own lunchroom encounter before Sunday. I've read somewhere Reid was Truly's secretary so they would have had a close working relationship, if true.
The thing that's always bugged me about the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter hoax theory is Baker. He seems totally separate from Truly and a 'random event'. So who is coming up with the hoax - are the SS/FBI sitting them both down and telling them "This is what we're doing", is Truly taking Baker to one side and saying "Just go along with this". The hoax can't just emerge naturally, someone has to be in the driving seat but if Westbrook's account of Reid telling the Oswald story immediately after the assassination has any credence it can't be part of the hoax. Food for thought
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2020, 07:51:44 PM
In the interview Westbrook Scranton describes running back into the TSBD.
Both Lovelady and Shelley describe Calvery as running back to the TSBD

And none of them said "in well under 30 seconds".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 07:53:18 PM
And none of them said "in