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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Duncan MacRae on July 09, 2020, 08:56:03 AM

Title: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Duncan MacRae on July 09, 2020, 08:56:03 AM
( Part 1 ) is viewable at https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2549.0.htm (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2549.0.htm)l

Further discussion to be continued in this thread.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/PmFnjgRaYWC0HIkUKs/200w.webp?cid=ecf05e475b4277b85db5ea8590fe30d3123a7a2bde34fd0d&rid=200w.webp)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2020, 07:10:57 PM
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

"I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone. He just went about his work."            Bonnie Ray Williams


Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink.
Whats that? Not one witness put him on the steps that day? Not one of those stood with him or the many coming back up the steps? Not one?
You do surprise me.

WUP   ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 09, 2020, 07:20:45 PM
If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble.

Exactly.  Which is why it's comical that LNers consider it "evidence of guilt" that he didn't gab about what happened with everybody he encountered after that.

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But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

We are?  Who suggested that Oswald was "chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley"?

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I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him.

Or he was just a shy introvert.  Where do you get "contempt"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2020, 09:08:38 PM

We are?  Who suggested that Oswald was "chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley"?


I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm. Sarcasm can be seen as saying something that  is completely the opposite of what you actually mean as a way to emphasise what you actually mean. To clarify - I'm not actually asking you to believe that Oswald is out front with all his work colleagues interacting in a positive way with them as if he was a really sociable, easy-going guy. I'm actually saying the opposite thing. I honestly thought this would be totally clear as the whole post up to that moment was a litany of testimonial evidence demonstrating how Oswald was perceived as, for want of a better word, unsociable. Statement after statement clearly demonstrating (or so I thought) that Oswald didn't like the company of his work colleagues. As I thought it was blindingly obvious, in the light of the substantial amount of evidence on display, that Oswald would rather blow his own brains out than spend time with his work colleagues, I made up a non-existent, sarcastic scenario to emphasise this point. (when I say "blow his own brains out" this is not sarcasm, this is a 'figure of speech' and is not to be taken literally).
The addition of William Shelley in this scenario was an extrapolation made from Oswald's supposed testimony as recorded in Fritz's notes where he specifically singles out William Shelley - "out with Bill Shelley in front"
The bit at the end where I say "Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink" is also sarcasm. I'll keep it to a minimum if future.

"Where do you get "contempt"?"

If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

"Or he was just a shy introvert"

You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.
Oswald in an antisocial, arrogant loser.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 09, 2020, 09:45:34 PM
I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm.

Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front because he was anti-social, which is ridiculous because you don't have to be social to stand and watch something with other people present.

And yes, "little details" are important to get right.  Especially when someone misrepresents the details in order to state things as facts that are not established as facts.  Like Lovelady and Shelley "lying" about how long it took them to leave the steps.

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If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use.  Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?  I would assume that it's someone who isn't into "chatting away with strangers" about how good the morning is.

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You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.

George Bouhe: 

"They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg."

Mrs. Clyde Livingston:

"He was a quiet and rather shy type of student, did not know any of the other students, and it took him a long time to get acquainted with the other students."

Daniel Patrick Powers:

"I think-he was a quiet-if you want to call it-a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, SO to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him ; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident."

Rose Schambra:

"She stated she found OSWALD to be a quiet and shy person who never seemed to converse with anyone"

Aron Vigushin:

“He was a shy man…. The questions he asked were related to music, astronomy, Russian language. But he didn’t talk too much about himself…. He never talked politics.”

Priscilla Johnson McMillan:

"rather tentative, rather shy, not bombastic at all and not seeking to make a big impression."

Renatus Hartogs:

"It was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of awkwardness and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits."

Ok, your turn.  Name somebody who knew him who used the word "contemptuous" to describe him.

Buell Frazier was the coworker he knew the best and Frazier never described him as contemptuous or that he acted superior to others. 

Mr. BALL - On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other?
Mr. FRAZIER - No. sir: not very much. lie is. probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.
About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2020, 11:23:21 PM
Apart from Frazier, who doesn't use the word 'shy', which of those people in your list are his colleagues, as I specifically stated - "Show me one example ... where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'."
Everything about my original post was about how his work colleagues described him, how antisocial almost everyone found him to be (not that anyone used the word 'antisocial', that is my own interpretation of how he is being described). The point I was clearly making is that Oswald was highly unlikely to be out front with his colleagues as he clearly did not enjoy their company (to put it mildly). The context concerned Oswald and his relationship with his colleagues in general. Once again you appear to have heard what you want to hear, twisted it around to suit your own purposes and 'scored a point' in an argument you have invented.
Is it only me you do this to because it is starting to get bothersome? I don't mind being critiqued, challenged and shown where I'm going wrong but there's something unsettling about your attention.
As for your use of the word 'shy' in relation to Oswald, I find that contemptuous.

By the way, which of the many witnesses on the TSBD steps places Oswald there?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 10, 2020, 12:28:41 AM
Apart from Frazier, who doesn't use the word 'shy', which of those people in your list are his colleagues, as I specifically stated - "Show me one example ... where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'."

 ::)

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?

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Everything about my original post was about how his work colleagues described him, how antisocial almost everyone found him to be (not that anyone used the word 'antisocial', that is my own interpretation of how he is being described).

Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them.  I notice you avoided my question.  Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?

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The point I was clearly making is that Oswald was highly unlikely to be out front with his colleagues as he clearly did not enjoy their company (to put it mildly).

And the point I made is that you do not have to socialize with anybody to stand outside and watch a parade go by.  Who said he did not enjoy their company, anyway?  Or is that more "interpretation"?

Quote
The context concerned Oswald and his relationship with his colleagues in general. Once again you appear to have heard what you want to hear, twisted it around to suit your own purposes and 'scored a point' in an argument you have invented.

And you appear to make meaningless distinctions merely to avoid being accountable for your sweeping generalizations.

Quote
Is it only me you do this to because it is starting to get bothersome? I don't mind being critiqued, challenged and shown where I'm going wrong but there's something unsettling about your attention.

As I said, I'm bothered when people state their personal assumptions and conjecture as fact.  It's nothing personal.

Quote
As for your use of the word 'shy' in relation to Oswald, I find that contemptuous.

Why, when several people who knew him described him like that?  Did you know him?

Quote
By the way, which of the many witnesses on the TSBD steps places Oswald there?

None that I know of.  If that's your argument, then you could have dispensed with all the psychobabble.  Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2020, 01:27:47 AM
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara, for lending powerful credence to the idea that the quiet loner Mr Oswald

-------------would have been uncomfortable standing out on the steps with the other folks awaiting the motorcade
-------------would have instead remained inside, periodically checking on the scene outside by looking through the glass front door
-------------would have left it until the last moment to go through that door, take his position in a dark quiet corner and watch JFK pass
-------------would have gone all but unnoticed by those already standing out there, whose attention was by then focused entirely on the motorcade (and, a few seconds later, the pandemonium).
 
Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 11, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
::)

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?


Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying). I cannot explain it any clearer than this - the point being I was making is absolutely relevant, and specific to, his work colleagues. It is unlikely Oswald would have joined his work colleagues on the steps because of his documented relationship with his work colleagues. How this was not clear to you I don't know, I can only assume you don't read my posts correctly.

"Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them."

I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald? I'll only use a few of quotes to make my point:

"... he didn't associate with us too much ... He didn't like to talk too much to us"
" Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone."
"We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."

These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

" Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?"

No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to. I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour. The dictionary definition of 'contempt'  - "the feeling that a person or a thing is worthless or beneath consideration".
This is the perfect word to describe Oswald. In your defence of him you have this to say -"Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use. Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?"
I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not. To treat someone with contempt is to treat them as if they're not there - exactly how Oswald treats Hines.

"Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no."

It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.
You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 11, 2020, 06:53:47 PM
To Mr. Iacoletti’s point/observation at, quote, “Behind”

It certainly correlates with the time-sequence movements of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman’s return inside the building at the rear entrance at 12:25PM, where the wrongly accused actually described the tandem walking together from his vantage point in the Domino Room (first floor lunchroom).  It would be virtually impossible for anyone, let alone the wrongly accused, if they really were six stories up in the front of the building to guess, let alone actually see, anyone else return into the building six stories below at the rear of the building.

By the time the wrongly accused left the Domino Room and went out the front-entrance to view the presidential-parade, given his reluctance to engage and/or mingle, it would be characteristic of him to take up a rear position "Behind" others, drawing less attention as possible.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2020, 04:19:57 AM

  This "stuff" about Oswald being "shy" is pure Baloney. Oswald was on RADIO extolling his political opinions along with standing on street corners handing out controversial literature to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that crossed his path. Oswald was Not "Shy". Oswald was Verbose whenever he wanted to be and also made his presence Known at a time and place of his choosing.  Stop with this Dr Phil routine.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 12, 2020, 05:24:30 AM
Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.

Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 12, 2020, 07:11:27 AM
Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?


Dear Alan,

There was a lot of stuff happening at the time, so it's understandable that no one on the steps remembered seeing, or volunteered that they'd seen, Officer Marion Baker and TSBD manager Truly run up the steps about 30 seconds after the third and final shot.

Do you think Baker sprinted to the corner to ask the other policeman down there if he'd counted how many pigeons had taken flight?

Do you think Couch-Darnell was altered?

Do you think we in the U.S. live in a FBI and CIA-controlled Deep State?

How many people do you figure were involved in the assassination and "the cover up"?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Mr. Oswald probably left the building by the loading dock door.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 08:16:52 AM
Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying).

I didn’t accuse you of saying that it was impossible — I’m pointing out that your claim that it is “unlikely” is unfounded. As I pointed out, watching a parade while standing behind other people watching a parade is not a social activity. You tried to turn this into an Oswald-Shelley chat session.

But you went way beyond trying to make a case that Oswald wasn’t social enough to be standing outside. You tried to use his reluctance to talk to people to automatically label him as contemptuous and superior.

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I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald?

Why do you describe him as my “friend”? Because I take issue with your armchair psychoanalysis of somebody you never met? Or are you being contemptuous and superior?

Quote
These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

I didn’t misrepresent or twist anything you said. You didn’t merely say he was anti-social.

Quote
No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to.

Ding ding ding. There’s the projection.

Quote
I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour.

And therein lies the problem. You’re not describing the behavior, you’re describing what you decided the behavior means.

Quote
I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not.

I wonder if you realize how contemptuous you are being in this discussion. You missed the part of the definition about being scornful.

Quote
It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible

No. Where did you get that idea?

Quote
but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Note: another coworker who doesn’t describe him as contemptuous, superior, or even unfriendly.

Quote
Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?)

I don’t. I’m responding to your argument that he was too antisocial to be standing outside during the motorcade. Even though standing outside during the motorcade isn’t any more social than sitting in a lunchroom where other people are present.

Quote
and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

Ignoring them how? Just because they didn’t mention seeing him? How many people mentioned Roy Lewis or Jeraldean Reid? Or as Alan aptly noted, Officer Baker.

Quote
You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.

Not at all. I don’t know where he was. But you seem mighty determined to keep him away from there with rhetorical and presumptive arguments .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 08:19:00 AM
  This "stuff" about Oswald being "shy" is pure Baloney. Oswald was on RADIO extolling his political opinions along with standing on street corners handing out controversial literature to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that crossed his path. Oswald was Not "Shy". Oswald was Verbose whenever he wanted to be and also made his presence Known at a time and place of his choosing.  Stop with this Dr Phil routine.

Must be more of that famous Storing “inside information”. Never mind the 7 or so people who actually knew him describing him as shy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 12, 2020, 05:10:18 PM

I didn’t accuse you of saying that it was impossible — I’m pointing out that your claim that it is “unlikely” is unfounded.


In Reply #4 you state the following:

"Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front ..."

In my response to your inability to understand the simple point I make in my original post I lay it out in a way anyone can understand - the numerous testimonies, plus others I didn't use, documenting Oswald's antisocial behaviour towards his work colleagues makes it unlikely he would join them outside to watch the motorcade pass by. You completely ignore my comprehensive explanation (as usual) and twist my word "unlikelihood" into "it couldn't possibly have happened". When I protest that you have yet again twisted and misrepresented my words and that I didn't say "it couldn't possibly have happened" you then twist and misrepresent your own twisted misrepresentation by saying I used the word "impossible".
In two steps I go from saying 'unlikely' to' impossible'. The rest of your response is the usual twisted garbage but, even by your intensely low standards, the deliberate "misremembrance" that both Shelley and Lovelady witnessed Baker at the TSBD steps is stunning. I know for a fact you are aware of their testimonies.
I don't know why you've singled me out for your campaign of misrepresentation but I've had enough and find I'm spending way too much time responding to your unsavoury attentions. I don't know if there's a protocol for complaining about these issues, instead I will post the following message to future attacks;

 :-X POST IGNORED DUE TO PREVIOUS MISREPRESENTATIONS . SEE REPLY #15 "They Went Outside To Watch The P. Parade" THREAD (Part 2)

I have been wondering about why you are victimising me. As a newcomer to all this I've noticed there are various factions (Lone Assassin/Prayer Man/ Two Oswalds etc) with each defending their own 'turf' because each is utterly convinced they have the answer. I don't know what faction you belong to but, as I fumble along through this maze, I'm assuming I've said something you find threatening to you beliefs (and they are beliefs). I'm still near the start so I've not 'found my faction' yet and it may be the case that the evidence leads me to see things the way you do but I'll let my best interpretation of the evidence guide me there, not your bullying tactics.
Looking through my posts I find your only objection based on anything remotely rational is to my stating as fact that Shelley and Lovelady lied in their testimonies. The following image proves for a fact that Lovelady was lying:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0Z2F99/Lovelady-outside-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In his HSCA testimony Lovelady is shown this still (or one very similar) and recognises himself. Towards the end he finally admits he didn't go back inside until much later than he'd previously stated.
Don't bother responding, you will only be ignored.

 (https://i.postimg.cc/tTTThc6d/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2020, 05:15:30 PM
Must be more of that famous Storing “inside information”. Never mind the 7 or so people who actually knew him describing him as shy.

   Guess I somehow missed your disputing Oswald being on Radio and standing on street corners buttonholing passersby with leaflets.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 12, 2020, 05:19:48 PM
   Guess I somehow missed your disputing Oswald being on Radio and standing on street corners buttonholing passersby with leaflets.
And even I know about 'shy' Oswald's TV interview extolling the virtues of his own particular views on Marxism.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2020, 05:23:55 PM
And even I know about 'shy' Oswald's TV interview extolling the virtues of his own particular views on Marxism.

   Yeah. Real shy conduct Overtly Displayed to a Wide Audience.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 12, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
In Reply #4 you state the following:

"Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front ..."

In my response to your inability to understand the simple point I make in my original post I lay it out in a way anyone can understand - the numerous testimonies, plus others I didn't use, documenting Oswald's antisocial behaviour towards his work colleagues makes it unlikely he would join them outside to watch the motorcade pass by. You completely ignore my comprehensive explanation (as usual) and twist my word "unlikelihood" into "it couldn't possibly have happened". When I protest that you have yet again twisted and misrepresented my words and that I didn't say "it couldn't possibly have happened" you then twist and misrepresent your own twisted misrepresentation by saying I used the word "impossible".
In two steps I go from saying 'unlikely' to' impossible'. The rest of your response is the usual twisted garbage but, even by your intensely low standards, the deliberate "misremembrance" that both Shelley and Lovelady witnessed Baker at the TSBD steps is stunning. I know for a fact you are aware of their testimonies.
I don't know why you've singled me out for your campaign of misrepresentation but I've had enough and find I'm spending way too much time responding to your unsavoury attentions. I don't know if there's a protocol for complaining about these issues, instead I will post the following message to future attacks;

 :-X POST IGNORED DUE TO PREVIOUS MISREPRESENTATIONS . SEE REPLY #15 "They Went Outside To Watch The P. Parade" THREAD (Part 2)

I have been wondering about why you are victimising me. As a newcomer to all this I've noticed there are various factions (Lone Assassin/Prayer Man/ Two Oswalds etc) with each defending their own 'turf' because each is utterly convinced they have the answer. I don't know what faction you belong to but, as I fumble along through this maze, I'm assuming I've said something you find threatening to you beliefs (and they are beliefs). I'm still near the start so I've not 'found my faction' yet and it may be the case that the evidence leads me to see things the way you do but I'll let my best interpretation of the evidence guide me there, not your bullying tactics.
Looking through my posts I find your only objection based on anything remotely rational is to my stating as fact that Shelley and Lovelady lied in their testimonies. The following image proves for a fact that Lovelady was lying:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0Z2F99/Lovelady-outside-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In his HSCA testimony Lovelady is shown this still (or one very similar) and recognises himself. Towards the end he finally admits he didn't go back inside until much later than he'd previously stated.
Don't bother responding, you will only be ignored.

 (https://i.postimg.cc/tTTThc6d/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

But you must admit that Iacoletti's input is always useful
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 11:25:49 PM
You completely ignore my comprehensive explanation (as usual)

Nope. I didn’t “ignore” it — I disagree with your conclusion.

Quote
and twist my word "unlikelihood" into "it couldn't possibly have happened".

No, I clearly stated that this is how I read it. This was before your “comprehensive explanation”.

Quote
When I protest that you have yet again twisted and misrepresented my words and that I didn't say "it couldn't possibly have happened" you then twist and misrepresent your own twisted misrepresentation by saying I used the word "impossible".

Nope. I never said you used the word impossible.

Quote
In two steps I go from saying 'unlikely' to' impossible'. The rest of your response is the usual twisted garbage but, even by your intensely low standards, the deliberate "misremembrance" that both Shelley and Lovelady witnessed Baker at the TSBD steps is stunning.

You still haven’t explained how you know this was deliberate. Or even wrong.

If you don’t want to defend your claims, then so be it, but don’t accuse me of “misrepresenting” you just to avoid having to do so.

Quote
I have been wondering about why you are victimising me.

Oh please. You come along here and start decreeing what’s “unlikely” and what are absolute “facts”, and then when you are challenged on what you say, you’re being “victimised”?

Quote
Looking through my posts I find your only objection based on anything remotely rational is to my stating as fact that Shelley and Lovelady lied in their testimonies. The following image proves for a fact that Lovelady was lying:

How does that photo “prove that Lovelady was lying”? How do you even know when the photo was taken?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 12, 2020, 11:26:47 PM
   Guess I somehow missed your disputing Oswald being on Radio and standing on street corners buttonholing passersby with leaflets.

Why should I dispute that? Does that somehow make him not shy?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 13, 2020, 04:50:13 AM

  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.  (2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 13, 2020, 05:40:43 AM
  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.

When have I previously disputed a fact?

Quote
(2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.

Thus sayeth Royell and his faulty crystal ball.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 13, 2020, 01:05:43 PM
  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.  (2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.

Oswald overcame any shyness by shooting authority figures
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 13, 2020, 04:17:18 PM
It’s easy to make claims.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 13, 2020, 04:25:27 PM
  (1) Though you have done it previously, "disputing" a Fact is just dumb.  (2) Yeah. Someone that goes out of their way to be on Radio and Confront people on street corners is NOT Shy.

Yeah, right... a basically shy person could never perform in front of a big audience, right Royell?


You clearly lack any kind of insight in human behavior. People can be generally shy and still perform in public when they feel comfortable to do so, either by having the support of others (as in the video) or, in the right setting, in dealing with a subject they feel passionned about, like Oswald's clear interest in politics. Only a narrowminded person would dispute something so obvious.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 13, 2020, 11:35:23 PM
Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?

 Thumb1:

Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 14, 2020, 12:03:06 AM
Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

!!!!!!!

--  MWT   Walk:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
Off the top of my head and without really looking into it - Truly, Shelley, Lovelady and Pauline Sanders.

How many are we looking for?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
Oh yeah - Oswald must have seen him as well as he was stood right by the entrance fishing some cigarettes out of his handbag but that's in Fritz's 'missing notes'  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 14, 2020, 03:42:54 PM
What cigarettes? What handbag?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 05:32:30 PM
Marlborough Lights and Gucci
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 14, 2020, 08:50:58 PM
Marlborough Lights and Gucci


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 14, 2020, 09:01:06 PM
 :D very good Martin but I think this would've been more appropriate

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 14, 2020, 09:15:51 PM
It’s easy to make claims.

Especially with witness IDs
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 14, 2020, 09:59:09 PM
:D very good Martin but I think this would've been more appropriate


You think?

Looks like?

Hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 12:08:37 AM
Off the top of my head and without really looking into it - Truly, Shelley, Lovelady and Pauline Sanders.

How many are we looking for?

Well, we can strike Messrs Shelley & Lovelady off your extremely short list of those who noticed Officer Baker & Mr Truly run into the building------------as you yourself believe that they did not look back and see what they say they saw from where they place themselves (in their WC testimonies) some 3+ minutes (!) after the shooting. Or do you believe Officer Baker & Mr Truly did not in fact run up those steps just after Darnell's camera stops filming them?

We can also strike Mr Truly off your list, as it's his dash into the building we're talking about!

Ms Sanders seems to be all you've got, and even that's reported speech------------and it would seem she only noticed Officer Baker (not Mr Truly).

I can help you out by adding Mr Molina, who went on the record about seeing Mr Truly (but not Officer Baker) run into the building v. shortly after the shooting.

So! Not a single person seems to have noticed both Mr Truly and Officer Baker conspicuously dash up those steps and enter the building vestibule.

You will no doubt explain this curious circumstance by saying everyone was in shock about what had just happened and so was not exactly alert to other things going on around them. Fine. Now go apply that thought to the inconspicuous nobody you say couldn't possibly have been standing in that entranceway for a very short time without having been noticed by lots of people!  Thumb1:

Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 12:11:09 AM
Oh yeah - Oswald must have seen him as well as he was stood right by the entrance fishing some cigarettes out of his handbag but that's in Fritz's 'missing notes'  8)

Once again, Mr O'Meara, quit making a fool of yourself and educate yourself as to the actual provenance of these notes:

(https://i.imgur.com/tUbgzY0.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 15, 2020, 01:29:02 AM
Well, we can strike Messrs Shelley & Lovelady off your extremely short list of those who noticed Officer Baker & Mr Truly run into the building------------as you yourself believe that they did not look back and see what they say they saw from where they place themselves (in their WC testimonies) some 3+ minutes (!) after the shooting. Or do you believe Officer Baker & Mr Truly did not in fact run up those steps just after Darnell's camera stops filming them?


Calm down Alan, ranting only makes you say stupid things. Baker didn't disappear into thin air when he reached the steps. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to seeing Baker approaching the steps, that I think they lied about how long it took Baker to get there doesn't matter and the reason "they did not look back" is because they are not the individuals identified walking away in Darnell, the film that shows Baker running at speed towards the steps.

We can also strike Mr Truly off your list, as it's his dash into the building we're talking about!

This is exactly the kind of stupid thing ranting makes you say. Because Truly follows Baker up the steps he can't be included as a witness?? Really Alan? Deep breaths.

Ms Sanders seems to be all you've got, and even that's reported speech------------and it would seem she only noticed Officer Baker (not Mr Truly).

Reported speech? As in - reported to Special Agents Robert E. Hasam and Robert J. Anderson? Find a happy place.

You will no doubt explain this curious circumstance by saying everyone was in shock about what had just happened and so was not exactly alert to other things going on around them. Fine. Now go apply that thought to the inconspicuous nobody you say couldn't possibly have been standing in that entranceway for a very short time without having been noticed by lots of people!

I will no doubt explain this curious circumstance by saying the majority of people at the steps were never called to testify and of those who did the majority reported seeing Baker approaching the steps (remember, Baker didn't disappear once he reached the steps). And just to clarify - the antisocial nature of the nobody in question made him very conspicuous.

Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


I think you'll find this is a list of all those who place your conspicuous creep on the steps. And breathe out  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 15, 2020, 02:05:55 AM
  Let's Not forget that MOTORCYCLE Officer Baker allegedly came Roaring around the corner of Houston/Elm St. We have All seen the still frame pics of people standing at ground level and being stretched across the front of the TSBD. This Shoulda been a Ringling Bros worthy show unfolding right in front of their eyes. Officer Baker Roaring around the corner onto Elm St, then HASTILY parking his bike at the curb and then SPRINTING across the Elm St Extension toward the TSBD is right outta an episode of "Chips". Of ALL those Eyewitnesses standing in front of the TSBD, NONE of them has reported seeing Baker's alleged Derring-do Unfolding DIRECTLY in Front of them. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 02:13:18 AM
Calm down Alan, ranting only makes you say stupid things. Baker didn't disappear into thin air when he reached the steps. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to seeing Baker approaching the steps, that I think they lied about how long it took Baker to get there doesn't matter and the reason "they did not look back" is because they are not the individuals identified walking away in Darnell, the film that shows Baker running at speed towards the steps.

 :D

Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!

You believe this is Mr Lovelady and Ms Calvery in Darnell, right?---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pnb5FTn.jpg)

Now! Tell us where exactly you think Officer Baker and Mr Truly are at this same moment. That way, we can see how credible the WC testimony of your star co-witness Mr Lovelady re. his sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly is!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 15, 2020, 02:17:00 AM
Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


I think you'll find this is a list of all those who place your conspicuous creep on the steps. And breathe out  8)

 :D :D

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 15, 2020, 02:25:59 AM
:D :D

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?  :D

Dear Alan,

If, as surmised by Buell Wesley Frazier, Oswald exited the building through the loading dock door, and then walked up the sidewalk towards the intersection of Elm and Houston (but crossed over the street before he reached said intersection), how many people who knew him should have noticed him?

Couple hundred?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 15, 2020, 07:28:31 PM
:D

Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!

You believe this is Mr Lovelady and Ms Calvery in Darnell, right?---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pnb5FTn.jpg)

Now! Tell us where exactly you think Officer Baker and Mr Truly are at this same moment. That way, we can see how credible the WC testimony of your star co-witness Mr Lovelady re. his sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly is!  Thumb1:

Dear Alan,

You are such a dream to argue with. It's like I don't even need to take part while you argue my case for me. In an earlier, unnecessarily rude post you told me to "quit making a fool" of myself. Well, why don't I make a fool of you instead.
Firstly, let's just clear something up. The identification of Shelley and Lovelady as the two figures walking down the dead-end street directly in front of the TSBD is based on almost nothing. It's an image of two white males walking towards the railroad yard and that's it. The WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady categorically refute this identification. Both men are crystal clear that they did not leave the area of the steps until after their encounter with Gloria Calvery and that Calvery did not arrive until at least three minutes after the final shooting. Both men are crystal clear in their testimonies that they didn't see Baker until after they had seen Gloria Calvery which can only mean one thing - both men are testifying that Baker didn't arrive on the scene until at least three minutes after the last shot!!! I am not making this up, it's in their testimonies. From Darnell we know this to be a falsehood as the arrival of Baker can be timed, with a fair degree of accuracy, to no more than 30 seconds  The only thing the identification of the two men walking down the street as Shelley and Lovelady has got going for it is that the testimony that refutes it is given by liars. Hardly a sound basis for an ID.
So where were Shelley and Lovelady when they saw Baker approaching the steps? The pic you posted has the answer to that question. Just off to the left of the frame Baker is racing past Roy Truly towards a group of people who seem to be making their way up the stairs except for one man facing down the stairs. In his part of the testimony concerning the recreation of their dash into the building Truly notes " I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building". This must surely be a reference to the people stood on the left-hand side of the front entrance steps as we look at it, the side Baker is approaching from. These people must have seen Baker rushing up the stairs as he barged past them, so who are they? This pic gives us a very large clue:

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqvCLLf/Lovelady-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NbMzp45/Gloria-Calvery-close-up-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Note the striking resemblance to Lovelady in the top pic and the man facing down the stairs on the bottom one (and is that Lovelady's checkered shirt I can just about make out in the pic you posted Alan? I believe it is you know). We know from Altgens 6 and this still from Hughes this is, more or less, Lovelady's position around the time of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLMq3sT9/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-Close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

So we can identify with some degree of confidence that the man on the steps is Lovelady. What about the woman directly in front of him wearing the black headscarf and black top and with whom he appears to be in conversation with, an impression strongly reinforced by the Larsen/Graves Gif in which we see the lady in white, who is linking arms with this woman, trying to ascend the steps but is held back by her companion, apparently engaged in conversation with Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/rmRP0k1f/gloria-calvery-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

It seems to me that the lady in the black headscarf is leaning against the wall for support as her friend tries to pull her up the steps but she doesn't move as she is engaged conversation with Lovelady. This is surely the moment when Gloria Calvery comes running up to the steps and tells Lovelady about the assassination:

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was...

Lending credence to this account is a very similar one given by Joe Molina:

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Some people think the man on the steps is Joe Molina but he clearly states he was stood inside the lobby of the front entrance when Gloria and 'this other girl', presumably the lady in white, came up to him. If the lady in the black headscarf talking to Lovelady on the steps is indeed Gloria Calvery, then a few things must follow:

She must have been very close to the actual assassination to see the amount of detail she describes.
She was most probably stood there in the company of her friend, the lady in white.
She must have been close enough to get back to the TSBD before Baker arrived there.
She most probably appears in the Zapruder footage.

In her "Hoover Questionnaire" Calvery states that she was with three friends - Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook and Karen Hicks - who were stood on Elm about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvnBXDjg/gloria-calvery-coworkers-jpg-c8ab7305fa9795afc64f79326f6d7a71.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Gloria was quite tall and big with it (check out her legs compared to her co-workers - sorry Gloria). Karen Westbrook was also quite tall while Reed and Hicks were shorter. So, in the Zfilm we are looking for four friends, two slightly taller than the others (keep an eye out for the legs), one in a black headscarf and black top, one all in white and all close enough to the final head-shot to see it in detail:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2S86Swby/Calvery-on-Elm-3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It's not a difficult identification. The lady in white being one of the shorter two is either Reed or Hicks. The only question is could they have made it back to the TSBD steps before Baker got there? In the schematic below the scale bar at the bottom represents 40ft. Calvery an her friends are approximately positioned just to the east of the single tree on the grassy expanse in front of the pergola. Using the scale it's possible to get a rough estimate of no more than 150 ft from this position to the TSBD steps. A person walking at a sedate pace of 3mph can cover just over 130 ft in 30 seconds. A person running, as both Shelley and Lovelady testify Calvery was, can cover the distance in half the time. Enough time to get there and be leaning against the wall as she tells Lovelady about the assassination.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhjV2GVS/Plan-of-Dealey-Plaza-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Most of this is a regurgitation of work done by Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves, check it out here - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25790-the-identification-of-gloria-calvery-in-zapruder-and-darnell/

What about Shelley? Multiple witnesses have him at the steps around this time. So, we're looking for a skinny chap in a baggy black suit and my favourite candidate is the man stood at the bottom of the steps looking in the direction of Baker as he approaches. The upshot of all this is that both Shelley and Lovelady did witness the approaching Baker but lied about where they were and how long it took for Baker to get there (something that needs explaining). What about Calvery and Reed/Hicks? Along with nearly all the females on the steps (Bonnie Richey, Betty Dragoo, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson, Jeraldean Reid, Sarah Stanton) they were never asked, as far as I am aware, to give an official statement other than the 'Hoover Questionnaire' which only wanted very specific details. Exceptions were Pauline Sanders, who did identify Baker on the steps and Carolyn Arnold, who provided very little detail (other than a potential 'fleeting glimpse' Oswald standing in the lobby of the front entrance which she specifically retracted in a subsequent statement but one can't help but get the faint whiff of FBI pressure about this - maybe, maybe not).
I believe that makes it 4 - 2 to me on the Baker witnesses, you mentioned Molina but forgot Frazier, You can have him for free  ;D). I'd love to have Ochus Campell's "... and a motorcycle policeman rushed up" but it's too sketchy.

"You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?"


When you wrote this in an earlier post I thought you were just having a 'senior moment' so I let it go as it was before the insults started - "While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?"

I've not been doing this for long but I did make an early breakthrough - there is more than one exit to the TSBD!!! Please keep it quiet as I'm thinking about writing a book. I think Thomas, being the excellent researcher he is, might be aware of the exit onto the Houston Street dock but he's not mentioned the secret door on the west side of the building. I shouldn't be telling you really but I'm just so excited. There's going to be a whole chapter on an external fire escape that seems to have completely gone under the radar.
Have a little read over the point your making about Oswald not being seen leaving through the front entrance of the TSBD and then, by my logic, you should take some meds and treat yourself to a nice lie down.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 15, 2020, 10:55:41 PM
You think?

Looks like?

Hmmmmmm

If Dan is convinced that a blurry film frame shows somebody digging into a purse for cigarettes, then by golly that's just what it is.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 16, 2020, 02:44:45 AM
Please excuse the interruption gentlemen...just in briefly to record some notes for follow up reference/post later this weekend when I have more time.

*Ms/Mrs. Hendrix's Commission Exhibit 1381 Statement (page 18, right-hand column)

*Compare Gloria Calvery's wedding picture height with woman climbing steps w/woman in white. Use the photo image at the Tire Dealership Ad as well.

*Compare Ms/Mrs. Hendrick's timeline dash to Marrion Baker's ----->


Ms/Mrs. Hendrix was 51 years old. Roy Truly was 56 years old on Friday, November 22, 1963 (IF he can handle rushing up five flights of stairs, she could handle a short distance sprint back to the building per her CE 1381 Statement.









Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2020, 04:14:01 AM
Please excuse the interruption gentlemen...just in briefly to record some notes for follow up reference/post later this weekend when I have more time.

*Ms/Mrs. Hendrix's Commission Exhibit 1381 Statement (page 18, right-hand column)

*Compare Gloria Calvery's wedding picture height with woman climbing steps w/woman in white. Use the photo image at the Tire Dealership Ad as well.

*Compare Ms/Mrs. Hendrick's timeline dash to Marrion Baker's ----->


Ms/Mrs. Hendrix was 51 years old. Roy Truly was 56 years old on Friday, November 22, 1963 (IF he can handle rushing up five flights of stairs, she could handle a short distance sprint back to the building per her CE 1381 Statement.

Dear Alan,

You do realize don't you that at the beginning of the pertinent part of the clip, the woman wearing the black blouse (tall Gloria Calvery) was standing one step below the woman in white (average height Carol Reed), and at the end of the clip she was standing two steps below her?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2020, 06:23:16 AM
Dear Alan, (~snip snip~)

Thank you for this error-riddled essay, Mr O'Meara, which amounts to little more than an extended exercise in missing the point!  Thumb1:

We agree that Mr Lovelady can be seen in Darnell, talking to (probably) Ms Calvery--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqvCLLf/Lovelady-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NbMzp45/Gloria-Calvery-close-up-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now for the problems!

1. Sorry, but this large man is not Mr Shelley--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Qap7yjQ.gif)

-------------try as you might to convince yourself that it is by restricting yourself to a frame showing him profile... (nice try though!)

2. Mr Shelley's own same-day affidavit says he ran into Ms Calvery (whom he knew well BTW!) at the "corner" of the "park". This would put him away from the steps by the time of Darnell, and would (if he's telling the truth in that affidavit) explain why he's nowhere to be found there. (And no, "Multiple witnesses" do NOT "have him at the steps around this time.") What's certain is that he's lying in his WC testimony.

Conclusion? Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley are lying in their WC testimonies with respect to their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly's dash into the building. Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building.

Does that mean they didn't dash into the building? No! It just means your argument that the much more inconspicuous Mr Oswald's going unnoticed by most folk on the steps for the v. short time he was out there means he can't have been out there is pitifully weak------------as have all the arguments we've heard to date from Team Keep LHO Away From The Front Entrance!

But now to the question--------------Why would Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lie about their immediate post-assassination movements?

Mr Lovelady's reason is easy to establish, Mr Shelley's not so easy.

Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony).

Mr Oswald told the truth about his movements in these minutes. What has come to light about what he said in custody offers a compelling counter-narrative to the official story. He really did visit the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination; he really did return to the first floor, where he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building by the back; he really did go outside to watch the P. parade; and he really did have an encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance. The 'investigating' authorities knew all this within hours of the assassination, and they got to work quickly to bury their suspect's alibi.

The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 16, 2020, 09:53:51 PM
Thank you for this error-riddled essay, Mr O'Meara, which amounts to little more than an extended exercise in missing the point!  Thumb1:

We agree that Mr Lovelady can be seen in Darnell, talking to (probably) Ms Calvery--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqvCLLf/Lovelady-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NbMzp45/Gloria-Calvery-close-up-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now for the problems!

1. Sorry, but this large man is not Mr Shelley--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Qap7yjQ.gif)

-------------try as you might to convince yourself that it is by restricting yourself to a frame showing him profile... (nice try though!)

2. Mr Shelley's own same-day affidavit says he ran into Ms Calvery (whom he knew well BTW!) at the "corner" of the "park". This would put him away from the steps by the time of Darnell, and would (if he's telling the truth in that affidavit) explain why he's nowhere to be found there. (And no, "Multiple witnesses" do NOT "have him at the steps around this time.") What's certain is that he's lying in his WC testimony.

Conclusion? Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley are lying in their WC testimonies with respect to their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly's dash into the building. Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building.

Does that mean they didn't dash into the building? No! It just means your argument that the much more inconspicuous Mr Oswald's going unnoticed by most folk on the steps for the v. short time he was out there means he can't have been out there is pitifully weak------------as have all the arguments we've heard to date from Team Keep LHO Away From The Front Entrance!

But now to the question--------------Why would Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lie about their immediate post-assassination movements?

Mr Lovelady's reason is easy to establish, Mr Shelley's not so easy.

Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony).

Mr Oswald told the truth about his movements in these minutes. What has come to light about what he said in custody offers a compelling counter-narrative to the official story. He really did visit the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination; he really did return to the first floor, where he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building by the back; he really did go outside to watch the P. parade; and he really did have an encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance. The 'investigating' authorities knew all this within hours of the assassination, and they got to work quickly to bury their suspect's alibi.

The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!

 Thumb1:

Oh Alan, you really are the gift that keeps on giving.

Your dissection of my "error riddled essay" deals with one point - that Shelley can't be in Darnell because he's bumping into Gloria Calvery at the "corner" of the "park, even though you agree Calvery is on the steps talking to Lovelady!!!
Absolutely priceless  :D What a devastating critique.
I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll make the concession that Shelley goes out to meet Calvery as per his affidavit then comes back to the steps with her (even though there's no specific mention of this). This places him in Darnell but you don't agree with my candidate for Shelley because he's too "large", by which I assume you mean he's too fat. But the side view of him shows he's quite skinny. Fat from the back and skinny from the side!! Brilliant  ;D
The notion that a skinny chap with broad shoulders and a baggy suit could achieve this fat/skinny effect is way beyond you.

"Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building."

Now you've introduced the word credible I agree Shelley and Lovelady are most certainly not that but Sanders and Truly are but you don't include Truly as a witness because he's involved in the dash with Baker!!!  :D :D :D : What impeccable logic!


"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


 ??? I won't even ask you to provide one scrap of evidence to support this psychedelically wild pile of tripe. Which reminds me, where's the self-anointed fact-checker in residence? How come you get away with this nonsense without feeling his wrath. It's almost like you're on the same team!

"The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!"

I have consistently maintained Oswald's behaviour made him conspicuous. Show me one post I've made that refers to the antisocial wife-beating creep as "invisible". (You can't include me pointing out that not one witness places him on the steps at the time of the assassination and in your case, unlike mine, 'not one witness' means not one witness, credible or otherwise).

Please keep up the good work  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 16, 2020, 11:30:42 PM
??? I won't even ask you to provide one scrap of evidence to support this psychedelically wild pile of tripe. Which reminds me, where's the self-anointed fact-checker in residence?

Says the whiner who can't stand having his mistakes corrected.

Maybe because the "psychedelically wild pile of tripe" is your identifications of Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvery.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 17, 2020, 09:09:41 AM
Says the whiner who can't stand having his mistakes corrected.

Maybe because the "psychedelically wild pile of tripe" is your identifications of Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvery.

The Identification of Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery is sound. Not once have you tried to take it on, just your usual nit-picking and empty observations. Why don't you put up your identification of Calvery and we'll argue it out (something I know for a fact won't be happening.) You talk about "mistakes corrected" and let this garbage sail on through -

"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


Oh, the hypocrisy, and you have the audacity to refer to the opinions of others as 'biased'. I see what you are now John, a defender of your own faith, constantly sniping at those who have a different opinion and never actually adding anything to the conversation (unless, of course, you are renowned for some big advance in the JFK case that I'm unaware of).
Having all the details at your fingertips is useless if you only use them as ammunition.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM48crcN/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 17, 2020, 02:13:12 PM
Oh Alan, (~snip snip~)

The denial is strong with this one, folks!  :D

Mr O'Meara, we appreciate that you're pretty new to this case so we so make allowances for newbie errors and rookie overexcitement. But you really need to stop making a fool of yourself.

When you repeatedly misidentify the author of these notes as Captain Fritz-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/FxoQrOx.jpg)

--------------you make a fool of yourself.

When you loudly proclaim that this hulk is Mr Bill Shelley------------

(https://i.imgur.com/B4gzD9Q.jpg)

------------you make a fool of yourself.

When you put forward Mr Roy Truly as a witness to the actions of Mr Roy Truly, you make a fool of yourself.

When you misrepresent the timeframe of Mr Molina's interaction with Ms Calvery in the vestibule, you make a fool of yourself.

Etc. etc. etc.

This is what's known amongst specialists as a pattern of Doylesque behavior. Do you really want to be the forum's new Mr Doyle? If not-------------raise your game, man!

So! Now that we have established that Mr Lovelady lied to the WC that he was away from the steps when Officer Baker & Mr Truly went up them, and that he told Mr Jarman all about what he really saw from his vantage point on those steps, let's explore the question of Mr Oswald's in/visibility together, shall we?

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz a man with a crewcut came in the front door, waved his credentials and asked him for the nearest telephone. Do you believe Mr Oswald made this incident up?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 17, 2020, 03:18:44 PM

When you misrepresent the timeframe of Mr Molina's interaction with Ms Calvery in the vestibule, you oh-so-smugly make a fool of yourself.


Dear Mister Ford,

When you suggest that Joe Molina and Gloria Calvery "interacted" in the smallish enclosed space just outside the second-floor lunchroom, you really make a fool of yourself.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 17, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
The Identification of Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery is sound. Not once have you tried to take it on, just your usual nit-picking and empty observations. Why don't you put up your identification of Calvery and we'll argue it out (something I know for a fact won't be happening.) You talk about "mistakes corrected" and let this garbage sail on through -

"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


Oh, the hypocrisy, and you have the audacity to refer to the opinions of others as 'biased'. I see what you are now John, a defender of your own faith, constantly sniping at those who have a different opinion and never actually adding anything to the conversation (unless, of course, you are renowned for some big advance in the JFK case that I'm unaware of).
Having all the details at your fingertips is useless if you only use them as ammunition.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM48crcN/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

   I'm surprised in order to bolster your, "Oswald at the Front Door of the TSBD Theory", you have Not referenced the story of the reporter that was looking for a telephone immediately after the Kill Shot. The reporter claimed  to have asked a stranger out in front of the TSBD, (afterward the reporter said he looked just like Oswald), as to where the nearest phone was. The stranger/Oswald? gestured him toward the TSBD.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 17, 2020, 04:45:42 PM
The Identification of Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery is sound. Not once have you tried to take it on, just your usual nit-picking and empty observations.

Bull.  I told you in great detail what was wrong with this "sound" argument.  It is based entirely upon Graves imagining that he sees "stripes" on black-blob on the steps in the Darnell frame and a whole bunch of handwaving.

Quote
"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


Oh, the hypocrisy, and you have the audacity to refer to the opinions of others as 'biased'. I see what you are now John, a defender of your own faith

Uh....Dan.....I didn't write those things, Alan did.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 17, 2020, 04:49:34 PM
When you loudly proclaim that this hulk is Mr Bill Shelley------------

------------you make a fool of yourself.

Dan is certainly entitled to think this blobs are whoever he wants them to be.  But he shouldn't pretend that his arrogance constitutes a "sound identification".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 17, 2020, 05:25:10 PM

  If people are simply going to accept that "Blob" on the (R) Rear of JFK's head after Z313 is actually his Intact Skull, this hooey then makes every other "Blob" Fair Game.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 17, 2020, 05:45:03 PM
Bull. I told you in great detail what was wrong with this "sound" argument.  It is based entirely upon Graves imagining that he sees "stripes" on black-blob on the steps in the Darnell frame and a whole bunch of handwaving.

Iacoletti,

At least you're finally conceding that the black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing gal at issue in Darnell is a candidate for big, tall, (glasses-wearing) Calvery, and you're implying that if only some broad, dark (but admittedly very fuzzy) horizontal "bands" could be discerned in the sliver of her subtlety-patterned, "plaid" skirt ...

... (speaking of which, scroll down to the Zapruder frame in Linda's fine Find-A-Grave post and enlarge it to see what I'm talking about) ... https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149407954/gloria-jean-calvery

... that's visible in Darnell, you'd be convinced it's her.

That's fantastic! You've made some real progress, John (traumatic for you though it must have been)!

Perhaps someone more technologically gifted than I am can find a clear version of those few Darnell frames, and enlarge them ...

 ... but not too much, as you always seem to intentionally do, John ...

... (lol -- remember your "She's Wearing Glasses/Nope, I Was Wrong -- She's Not Wearing Glasses" (Calvery) in the Betzner-3 photo we spent so much time arguing about, about a year ago? Remember -- you enlarged a crop of that untill her glasses "disappeared," didn't you) ...

... and post one or two of them here.

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Clearer Zapruder frames (i.e.., showing much better the dark horizontal bands in Calvery's dress) can be found, but unfortunately they all seem to be posted at the Duncan-proscribed Eeek-A-Freak Disinformation Forum website.

PPPS 

Wait! 

Doesn't our very own Robin Unger have some in the Forum's "JFK PHOTOGRAPHS GALLERY" section???

Edit:

Yep!  Here's one!  https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=0
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 04:11:01 PM
Well! I asked a question a while back and no one did offer an answer. So-----------I'll ask it again........

In Mr Dom Bonafede's 24 May 1964 article on Mr Billy Lovelady in the New York Herald Tribune, we get the following re. the Altgens photograph:

"Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"

Here is Commission Exhibit 203---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/alKkCnU.jpg)

Which female employee from the second floor, shielding her eyes in the photograph, is Mr Lovelady pointing to as he confidently makes the statement quoted above?

Can't be Ms Maddie Reese (GREEN arrow) (----------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

Can't be Ms Ruth Dean (PINK arrow) (---------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

(https://i.imgur.com/nGMYml2.jpg)

So---------------who does Mr Lovelady mean----------------and: where in the Altgens photograph is she??

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 04:19:58 PM
Perhaps not wholly unrelated question!

Mr Ronald Fischer states this in his 11/22/63 affidavit------------

"I do remember one peculiar thing happened just at the time I saw the man up there (-------> i.e. just before the motorcade turned the corner onto Houston Street, A.F.). There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and looked to me like she might be an employee of that building. She was walking in while everyone else had been coming out."

Assuming Mr Fischer didn't hallucinate this "girl"--------------and why should we think he did?----------------who might she have been?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 04:22:47 PM
Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz a man with a crewcut came in the front door, waved his credentials and asked him for the nearest telephone. Do you believe Mr Oswald made this incident up?

Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 18, 2020, 05:12:17 PM
Mr. Ford at his optimal best, what an uncanny knack he has for honing in on pertinent details amid his keenly discerning research methodology. 

That said, good morning gentlemen. In briefly to expound upon the notes I left earlier this week:

*For years it was common knowledge within the research community that Gloria Jean Calvery was "Running Woman".  Given the actual physique of Running-Woman, many researchers over time--with good reason--begin to question the notion that Running-Woman was the noticeably more pudgy Calvery (G-d bless her anyway as her physique doesn't define her inner-beauty as a valued member of the human race).

A couple of years ago, while reading through the statements within Commission-Exhibit 1381, I came across a more likely candidate for Running-Woman: Miss Georgia Ruth Hendrix.  Unlike anyone else interviewed, she actually shares how she fled back into the building (her first-hand account is on page 18 on the right column) ---->

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

In respect to my other notes,  specifically a reminder to compare Gloria Calvery's (RIP) wedding photograph and now the images we have courtesy of the SFM, I am not convinced she is the MUCH taller amazon woman in plaid captured in the respective photos of Mr. Zapruder & Mr. Betzner . In the SFM photo within this thread she is the third tallest female, yet somehow she suddenly dwarfs both her two taller coworkers and even the men standing there alongside her on lower Elm Street?

In her wedding photo her husband is much taller than she is (even standing there in her high-heels). So, when did this sudden growth spurt occur?

This inquiry & these questions are merely an observation. It is not to serve as an attack upon the good-faith research of others contrary to my views. It is merely done in the spirit of avoiding the possibility of another long-term instance where the research community needs to update, reset and start all over again as was the experience with the initial identification of "Running-Woman".

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 05:40:52 PM
Mr. Ford at his optimal best, what an uncanny knack he has for honing in on pertinent details amid his keenly discerning research methodology. 

That said, good morning gentlemen. In briefly to expound upon the notes I left earlier this week:

*For years it was common knowledge within the research community that Gloria Jean Calvery was "Running Woman".  Given the actual physique of Running-Woman, many researchers over time--with good reason--begin to question the notion that Running-Woman was the noticeably more pudgy Calvery (G-d bless her anyway as her physique doesn't define her inner-beauty as a valued member of the human race).

A couple of years ago, while reading through the statements within Commission-Exhibit 1381, I came across a more likely candidate for Running-Woman: Miss Georgia Ruth Hendrix.  Unlike anyone else interviewed, she actually shares how she fled back into the building (her first-hand account is on page 18 on the right column) ---->

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

In respect to my other notes,  specifically a reminder to compare Gloria Calvery's (RIP) wedding photograph and now the images we have courtesy of the SFM, I am not convinced she is the MUCH taller amazon woman in plaid captured in the respective photos of Mr. Zapruder & Mr. Betzner . In the SFM photo within this thread she is the third tallest female, yet somehow she suddenly dwarfs both her two taller coworkers and even the men standing there alongside her on lower Elm Street?

In her wedding photo her husband is much taller than she is (even standing there in her high-heels). So, when did this sudden growth spurt occur?

This inquiry & these questions are merely an observation. It is not to serve as an attack upon the good-faith research of others contrary to my views. It is merely done in the spirit of avoiding the possibility of another long-term instance where the research community needs to update, reset and start all over again as was the experience with the initial identification of "Running-Woman".

Thanking you kindly, sir! Several fascinating lines of inquiry being pursued here, all converging on those all-important front steps that hold the key to Mr Oswald's alibi  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 05:42:58 PM
Perhaps not wholly unrelated question!

Mr Ronald Fischer states this in his 11/22/63 affidavit------------

"I do remember one peculiar thing happened just at the time I saw the man up there (-------> i.e. just before the motorcade turned the corner onto Houston Street, A.F.). There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and looked to me like she might be an employee of that building. She was walking in while everyone else had been coming out."

Assuming Mr Fischer didn't hallucinate this "girl"--------------and why should we think he did?----------------who might she have been?

 Thumb1:

Working backwards----------------------

I believe this 'girl' was none other than Ms Carolyn Arnold. She left the group of female employees out by the street and returned to the front entrance just before the motorcade passed.

Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Bill Shelley noticed her presence.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 18, 2020, 06:21:53 PM
Thanking you kindly, sir! Several fascinating lines of inquiry being pursued here, all converging on those all-important front steps that hold the key to Mr Oswald's alibi  Thumb1:

   The "Key" to the Oswald Alibi is Buell Frazier.  Frazier was standing on that 3+ feet deep TSBD Landing = His having a Crows Nest Vantage Point: (1) Prior to,  (2) During, and (3) Well After the Kill Shot. Either Frazier did see Oswald standing on the TSBD Landing or Nobody did. Very Simple. And with Frazier still alive and kicking, this is an Important Question that can be answered by a Main Player/Eyewitness. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 06:49:50 PM
Well! I asked a question a while back and no one did offer an answer. So-----------I'll ask it again........

In Mr Dom Bonafede's 24 May 1964 article on Mr Billy Lovelady in the New York Herald Tribune, we get the following re. the Altgens photograph:

"Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"

Here is Commission Exhibit 203---------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/alKkCnU.jpg)

Which female employee from the second floor, shielding her eyes in the photograph, is Mr Lovelady pointing to as he confidently makes the statement quoted above?

Can't be Ms Maddie Reese (GREEN arrow) (----------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

Can't be Ms Ruth Dean (PINK arrow) (---------------->does NOT work on second floor!)

(https://i.imgur.com/nGMYml2.jpg)

So---------------who does Mr Lovelady mean----------------and: where in the Altgens photograph is she??

 Thumb1:

My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Ve8lufE.jpg)

Ms Arnold's presence on those steps was erased from history. Because she told the 'investigating' authorities she noticed Mr Lee Harvey Oswald when she went back to that front entrance just before the Presidential parade arrived. (Unlike those already on the steps, she was facing in that direction before she reached them.) They took her statement and distorted it beyond recognition. They made her think her story had gone into the official record. That story also included a sighting of Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade-------------a story which chimed perfectly with what Mr Oswald had claimed in custody, despite the fact that Ms Arnold was not privy to any of the interrogations.

Ms Arnold was, in short, the witness from hell. And so she wasn't called before the Warren Commission.

Years later, Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers contacted Ms Arnold. When she was told what was in her FBI interview report, she reacted very defensively to any suggestion she spotted Mr Oswald behind the front glass door. But she protested a little too much... Why, researchers had to wonder, would the FBI have concocted an Oswald sighting at the front door? Must have come from somewhere! The rational answer: They took what she told them and changed the timeframe, made her location vague enough-----and put words of doubt as to the identification into her mouth...

(https://i.imgur.com/heUcVA0.jpg)

This provided insulation against the eventuality of Ms Arnold's going public with her sighting. 'Oh, that's not quite what the young lady told us. See for yourself--here's the official interview report.'

By 1978, Ms Arnold no longer wished to tell her story-------------or at least: she now was only prepared to talk about the lunchroom part. Understandable!

However, if I've got this right, then I hope that, while there's still time, she decides to reveal the truth. Because along with Mr BW Frazier (and possibly Mr Roy Edward Lewis), she may be the only living witness left who can finally confirm Mr Oswald's alibi.

In the meantime, thank you, Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 18, 2020, 08:18:29 PM

  You previously Believed that the Shadow was applied to the Wiegman Film in order to Hide/Cover Oswald. Do you Now believe the Purpose of the Shadow is to hide Ms Arnold?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 10:06:30 PM
  You previously Believed that the Shadow was applied to the Wiegman Film in order to Hide/Cover Oswald. Do you Now believe the Purpose of the Shadow is to hide Ms Arnold?

I am certain the shadow is fake, and that its fabrication is related to Mr Oswald.

I strongly believe Ms Arnold is the reason that shadow was added---------and that she is the person to whom that arm belongs.

In the earliest iterations of Altgens that went out into the public domain, the presence of a person shielding their eyes just below Mr Lovelady was quite evident--------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/VGCywDQ.jpg)

(= what Mr Cronkite showed the nation that evening)

(https://i.imgur.com/15lB96G.jpg)

This posed quite the headache for the 'investigators'. I believe it explains the shenanigans behind this photo-shoot-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/VcCtDWn.jpg)

This was no 'misunderstanding' over which item of attire Mr Lovelady was to bring to the session! Mr Lovelady needed to be made pretend that he wore a short-sleeved shirt 11/22/63 to explain away the raised arm of the person just below him in Altgens as: his own lower left arm...

(https://i.imgur.com/VGCywDQ.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 18, 2020, 10:14:03 PM

  Most of us come here to Learn. Just admit you have Changed your position as to the Primary Reason for the shadow. No big deal.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 11:02:30 PM
  Most of us come here to Learn. Just admit you have Changed your position as to the Primary Reason for the shadow. No big deal.

Perfectly happy to admit that, Mr Storing. All I care about here is getting to the truth, one way or the other! Thumb1:

For some time now I have believed that BLUE arrow is Mr Oswald (i.e. Prayer Man), YELLOW arrow Mr Shelley (just behind Mr Lovelady)----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pjUnXgy.jpg)

I tried (harder perhaps than anyone!) to find a credible counter-candidate for Prayer Man, but I got precisely nowhere. It's looking more and more to me like Prayer Man really is Mr Oswald.

The way I see it, Mr Oswald-------------after his visit to the second floor lunchroom--------------stays indoors on the first floor, keeping an eye out (through the glass front door) for the motorcade. Not being one for mingling or small talk, he waits until the latest possible moment to pop outside. He takes up his position over by the west wall of the entrance. He's holding his coke & sandwich/apple.

Just before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, i.e. just before Mr Oswald steps outside, Ms Arnold spots him standing behind the glass door. She does not notice him after that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2020, 11:19:32 PM
Now!

Who is this (focus on YELLOW BOX------------please DISREGARD red arrow!) in the Towner film, standing on a lower step very close to Mr Carl Edward Jones, and enthusiastically waving something at the limousine?

(https://i.imgur.com/u8kebNM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/IYFlKYk.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 19, 2020, 01:02:43 AM
Now!

Who is this (focus on YELLOW BOX------------please DISREGARD red arrow!) in the Towner film, standing on a lower step very close to Mr Carl Edward Jones, and enthusiastically waving something at the limousine?

(https://i.imgur.com/u8kebNM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/IYFlKYk.gif)

 Thumb1:

The person gets cut off at the splice. Convenient.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 19, 2020, 02:02:56 AM
The person gets cut off at the splice. Convenient.

Bummer dude.

Now!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 19, 2020, 02:06:09 AM
Perfectly happy to admit that, Mr Storing. All I care about here is getting to the truth, one way or the other! Thumb1:

For some time now I have believed that BLUE arrow is Mr Oswald (i.e. Prayer Man), YELLOW arrow Mr Shelley (just behind Mr Lovelady)----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pjUnXgy.jpg)

I tried (harder perhaps than anyone!) to find a credible counter-candidate for Prayer Man, but I got precisely nowhere. It's looking more and more to me like Prayer Man really is Mr Oswald.

The way I see it, Mr Oswald-------------after his visit to the second floor lunchroom--------------stays indoors on the first floor, keeping an eye out (through the glass front door) for the motorcade. Not being one for mingling or small talk, he waits until the latest possible moment to pop outside. He takes up his position over by the west wall of the entrance. He's holding his coke & sandwich/apple.

Just before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, i.e. just before Mr Oswald steps outside, Ms Arnold spots him standing behind the glass door. She does not notice him after that.

NOW!

From just that small crop, that looks like Lovelady to me.

Reddish shirt, yes?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  NOW!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2020, 02:00:11 PM
The person gets cut off at the splice. Convenient.

What are you talking about, Mr Down?  ::)

(https://i.imgur.com/TeOsZUP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fPavxgG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Hr3tkst.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iFTwFqC.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2020, 02:06:50 PM

The way I see it, Mr Oswald-------------after his visit to the second floor lunchroom--------------stays indoors on the first floor, keeping an eye out (through the glass front door) for the motorcade. Not being one for mingling or small talk, he waits until the latest possible moment to pop outside. He takes up his position over by the west wall of the entrance. He's holding his coke & sandwich/apple.

Just before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, i.e. just before Mr Oswald steps outside, Ms Arnold spots him standing behind the glass door. She does not notice him after that.

From Mr Bill Shelley's 3/18/64 interview report:

(https://i.imgur.com/1eQO8n8.jpg)

Oops!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
Here's Mr Lovelady in Hughes, standing right behind Mr Carl Edward Jones----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/YyXV3Ox.gif)

A few seconds later, in Towner, Mr Lovelady appears to be in the same spot (YELLOW arrow)-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/OAxE0EF.jpg)

So who's the person below and just east of Mr Lovelady (PINK arrow) waving something enthusiastically at JFK and Ms Kennedy?

(https://i.imgur.com/UtqdFHh.gif)

I believe it may be Ms Carolyn Arnold, who has just arrived at those steps----------her arrival noticed by both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 19, 2020, 04:37:09 PM
Here's Mr Lovelady in Hughes, standing right behind Mr Carl Edward Jones----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/YyXV3Ox.gif)

A few seconds later, in Towner, Mr Lovelady appears to be in the same spot (YELLOW arrow)-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/OAxE0EF.jpg)

So who's the person below and just east of Mr Lovelady (PINK arrow) waving something enthusiastically at JFK and Ms Kennedy?

(https://i.imgur.com/UtqdFHh.gif)

I believe it may be Ms Carolyn Arnold, who has just arrived at those steps----------her arrival noticed by both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley.

 Thumb1:

    The film footage showing the girl in the blue coat standing atop the pedestal, also shows the Back of someone stepping Down off the curb into Houston St and looking in the direction of the JFK Limo as it begins turning onto Elm St. and then passing by the TSBD. Is this person Amos Euins? The person is: (1) Short, (2) wearing a Light Colored Jacket and (3) maybe a Hat. This person is in very Close Proximity to the Pedestal with the Blue Coated Girl standing atop it. This is the Same Pedestal that Euins claimed to have ducked behind as shots were being fired.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 19, 2020, 08:36:12 PM
What are you talking about, Mr Down?  ::)

(https://i.imgur.com/TeOsZUP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fPavxgG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Hr3tkst.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iFTwFqC.jpg)

By bad. I thought the spice was cutting it off.

Though to be fair, the spice is suspicious. There was not much of that film there to begin with. It is only about 8 seconds in length. So to have images taken out in the middle, hence the jump that can be seen, leads to having to ask if someone wanted something taken out for some reason.

Also why did Towner cut off at the end. If she had kept filming, she could have made millions like Zapruder.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 19, 2020, 10:01:03 PM
My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Ve8lufE.jpg)

Ms Arnold's presence on those steps was erased from history. Because she told the 'investigating' authorities she noticed Mr Lee Harvey Oswald when she went back to that front entrance just before the Presidential parade arrived. (Unlike those already on the steps, she was facing in that direction before she reached them.) They took her statement and distorted it beyond recognition. They made her think her story had gone into the official record. That story also included a sighting of Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade-------------a story which chimed perfectly with what Mr Oswald had claimed in custody, despite the fact that Ms Arnold was not privy to any of the interrogations.

Ms Arnold was, in short, the witness from hell. And so she wasn't called before the Warren Commission.

Years later, Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers contacted Ms Arnold. When she was told what was in her FBI interview report, she reacted very defensively to any suggestion she spotted Mr Oswald behind the front glass door. But she protested a little too much... Why, researchers had to wonder, would the FBI have concocted an Oswald sighting at the front door? Must have come from somewhere! The rational answer: They took what she told them and changed the timeframe, made her location vague enough-----and put words of doubt as to the identification into her mouth...

(https://i.imgur.com/heUcVA0.jpg)

This provided insulation against the eventuality of Ms Arnold's going public with her sighting. 'Oh, that's not quite what the young lady told us. See for yourself--here's the official interview report.'

By 1978, Ms Arnold no longer wished to tell her story-------------or at least: she now was only prepared to talk about the lunchroom part. Understandable!

However, if I've got this right, then I hope that, while there's still time, she decides to reveal the truth. Because along with Mr BW Frazier (and possibly Mr Roy Edward Lewis), she may be the only living witness left who can finally confirm Mr Oswald's alibi.

In the meantime, thank you, Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:

“When the author contacted Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that the FBI had misquoted her, came before the author explained to her the importance of Oswald’s whereabouts at given moments. Arnold’s recollection of what she observed was clear - spotting Oswald had been her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What she claimed she told the FBI is very different from the Bureau report of her comments.
       “About a quarter of an hour before the assassination,” she said in 1978, “I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment….Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.”
       Arnold had some reason to remember having gone into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. She also recalled, in 1978, that this was “about 12:15. It may have been slightly later.””

[“Not In Your Lifetime”, Anthony Summers pgs 91,92]

The pregnant lady in the middle of this pic is thought to be Carolyn Arnold being moved away from the TSBD steps minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QQ0KpWg/Carolyn-Arnold-Johnston-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcCG65x5)

She is identified as the lady on the far right of the steps as we look at them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0cfYWRK/Carolyn-Arnold-in-Darnell-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 20, 2020, 12:33:19 AM
An excellent find there, Mr. Ford, regarding Bill Shelley's 3/18/64 interview report confirming Ms. Arnold's close proximity to the unfolding action from her vantage point upon the front entrance stairs. Speaking of Ms. Arnold, and taking Mr. O'meara's photo bearing her name into account, I have a question for you. No rush making a response as I'm off for work until next weekend. Just the same sir., with that photo in mind, In your opinion is the figure standing there to Mr. Frazier's left possibly a heavy-set woman? Could she be in excess of 300lbs?

That said, now moving along to Mr. Roy Edward Lewis, given Mr. Frazier's height & the other folks standing there outside just beyond the glass doors where he says he viewed the P-parade from the inside,  In your opinion, Would it have been much easier for him to have viewed the action from behind Prayer Man's position, where it is less densely crowded? That said, am left to wonder if he is being fully truthful about who & what he observed out there that afternoon?

What kind of people can live with themselves knowing an outright lie masquerading as truth is being presented as fact? Mr. Frazier knows the truth. Mr. Molina knew the truth. I also believe Mr. Lewis knows the truth too. I get it, courage doesn't grow on trees, self-preservation is the highest priority and fear can be paralyzing at times, especially when it comes down to protecting one's family/loved ones at all cost.









Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2020, 02:39:01 PM
The pregnant lady in the middle of this pic is thought to be Carolyn Arnold being moved away from the TSBD steps minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QQ0KpWg/Carolyn-Arnold-Johnston-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcCG65x5)

She is identified as the lady on the far right of the steps as we look at them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0cfYWRK/Carolyn-Arnold-in-Darnell-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I honestly have doubts as to the safeness of the identification as Ms Arnold of the pregnant lady in the street. Beyond the fact that she's pregnant, what is the basis for this identification?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2020, 02:54:01 PM
An excellent find there, Mr. Ford, regarding Bill Shelley's 3/18/64 interview report confirming Ms. Arnold's close proximity to the unfolding action from her vantage point upon the front entrance stairs. Speaking of Ms. Arnold, and taking Mr. O'meara's photo bearing her name into account, I have a question for you. No rush making a response as I'm off for work until next weekend. Just the same sir., with that photo in mind, In your opinion is the figure standing there to Mr. Frazier's left possibly a heavy-set woman? Could she be in excess of 300lbs?

Those forearms look to me to be too slim for Ms Stanton, who (besides) would have been further back in the shadows alongside Mr Frazier. I think this also rules out Ms Sanders, who was standing beside Ms Stanton. Best bet would be either Ms Avery Davis or Ms Judy McCully (neither of whom worked on the second floor).

(Interesting Sidebar! Mr B. Kamp spoke with Ms McCully's daughter in 2018. She said her mom told her she was actually on the 4th floor at the time of the shooting...)

Quote
That said, now moving along to Mr. Roy Edward Lewis, given Mr. Frazier's height & the other folks standing there outside just beyond the glass doors where he says he viewed the P-parade from the inside,  In your opinion, Would it have been much easier for him to have viewed the action from behind Prayer Man's position, where it is less densely crowded? That said, am left to wonder if he is being fully truthful about who & what he observed out there that afternoon?

Mr Lewis gave a radio interview a while back in which he claimed to have been out on the steps (and not behind the front door). At one point, he let the interviewer persuade him he was the figure in Altgens we know to be Mr Carl Edward Jones-----------------not exactly a point in favor of Mr Lewis's credibility!

His March '64 description of his whereabouts at the time of the assassination? 'I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository...'

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Can't help wondering also is Mr Jones over by the (indoor) west wall in Darnell, messing with our perception of Prayer Man's posture?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 20, 2020, 04:37:25 PM
Good afternoon Mr. Ford,

I realize I am a bit late to the party so to speak, and that the thread has moved forward from the Hosty note to photographs of the front entrance of the TSBD, but hope you could answer the following questions:

1) When was the note discovered?
2) Who discovered it?
3) Where was it found?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2020, 06:26:51 PM
Good afternoon Mr. Ford,

I realize I am a bit late to the party so to speak, and that the thread has moved forward from the Hosty note to photographs of the front entrance of the TSBD, but hope you could answer the following questions:

1) When was the note discovered?
2) Who discovered it?
3) Where was it found?

Thanks in advance.

Hello, Mr van de Wiel!

1) Feb. 2019.
2) Mr Bart Kamp.
3) The Hosty papers at NARA (photocopied by researcher Mr Malcolm Blunt).

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 22, 2020, 11:21:09 PM
Been wondering about this Gif recently. Does anyone know what the apparent light source being held by the Shadow Person is?

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tCHkwMg/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 06:28:01 PM
No takers, eh?
I'll describe what I'm seeing, see if it rings any bells with you smokers out there. The Shadow Person is, as the name would suggest, a person stood completely in the shadows, no part of their body is being hit by sunlight. This tells me that the light source held in the hand isn't an object reflecting the sun which also tells me the light source is 'self-generating'. The order of the two images is also important. Using Lovelady's motion down the steps I think it is safe to say the image where the light source is being held to the face comes first. Taking a closer look at the images it is possible to make out, using the hairline as a reference point, that in the first image the face is tilted slightly downward and then straightens up in the second.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbxqt6b6/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

A 'self-generating' light source being held to a slightly tilted head. As a smoker myself I'm aware that when someone offers you a light you tilt your head slightly forward to receive it, what is strange, when I come to think of it, is that when you light your own cigarette you very often do the same tilting of the head even though it seems unnecessary:

(https://i.postimg.cc/c435bWCR/Lighting-Cigarette-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJFDn4kS/Lighting-Cigarette-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XY8LRYbC/Lighting-Cigarette-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

These are just a few images from dozens I could have chosen from. Very often the other hand is cupped around the cigarette to protect the flame from any wind but you need both hands to be free in order to do this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qR8zFzff/Lighting-Cigarette-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6BkRpMm/Lighting-Cigarette-5.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Also, if you have both hands free you will take the cigarette out of your mouth with one hand and blow out the match being held in the other but if you only have one hand free you will move the flame away from your face and shake it out. Going back to the close-up Gif. In the second image, the one where the head straightens up, the lower part of the face seems strangely distorted. It looks to me like it could possibly be a plume of smoke.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbxqt6b6/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I have only very basic tools for photo enhancement but two things seem to be suggested -

1) The light source seems brightest in the centre
2) The possibility of a cigarette-end glowing

I can't be sure of these things because, as I say, I am using very basic tools that could be throwing up all kinds of artificial artefacts. Take a look at the close-up Gif and see what you think - is it someone leaning in to light a cigarette then straightening up and blowing out a cloud of smoke?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 23, 2020, 07:31:19 PM
It could be a smoker, yes. I use both hands to light up, indoors or out.

Back then, almost everybody smoked, but Oswald didn't. Does the light suddenly disappear in the rest of the footage, i.e. the lighter was switched off?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 23, 2020, 07:41:13 PM
The head bobs down. I think he's taking a picture. People bob their head down when putting a camera up to their face.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 07:52:17 PM

  Yeah, there is a possible Head Bob. Problem is, when lighting a cigarette back in "63" when there was Not Bic Lighters emitting a Blow Torch Flame, people normally used matchbook matches and covered/cupped the flame and cigarette with Both Hands. The covering of the Flame/Cigarette with the hands would Not permit a camera from capturing the Flame/Glow on film.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 09:00:53 PM
  Yeah, there is a possible Head Bob. Problem is, when lighting a cigarette back in "63" when there was Not Bic Lighters emitting a Blow Torch Flame, people normally used matchbook matches and covered/cupped the flame and cigarette with Both Hands. The covering of the Flame/Cigarette with the hands would Not permit a camera from capturing the Flame/Glow on film.
The size of the flame is an artefact of enhancement and the cupping issue was dealt with. Read the post. What's your take on the light source?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 09:07:13 PM
And you're right, they didn't have Bic lighters in '63. They had serious lighters:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gky767cG/cigarette-lighters.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 09:58:20 PM
And you're right, they didn't have Bic lighters in '63. They had serious lighters:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gky767cG/cigarette-lighters.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
 
   Yeah, these are the lighters that Bogey made famous back when he was lighting up Bacall. Some were stand alone eye catchers that sat on a coffee table. The flame emitted by these lighters is Minimal in Height as well as Brightness. I will say this in your favor, IF someone that was employed in the TSBD had a lighter such as You have displayed, it would be a Woman and when Not in use it would rest inside her purse with her Compact. Knockarounds like Lovelady, Frazier, etc did Not carry lighters like this around.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 10:13:31 PM
 
   Yeah, these are the lighters that Bogey made famous back when he was lighting up Bacall. Some were stand alone eye catchers that sat on a coffee table. The flame emitted by these lighters is Minimal in Height as well as Brightness. I will say this in your favor, IF someone that was employed in the TSBD had a lighter such as You have displayed, it would be a Woman and when Not in use it would rest inside her purse with her Compact. Knockarounds like Lovelady, Frazier, etc did Not carry lighters like this around.

I'm pretty sure Zippo Lighters like the silver one at the top have a large flame. As for the 'Brightness' of flames in the '60's, not really sure you know what you're talking about but you may be an expert in such matters for all I know.
Still no thought on the light source itself?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 10:31:00 PM

  There has been so much manipulation of the JFK Assassination images in general, I kinda shake my head at the brightness your whatever that image you proffered shows. When I look at that image undoctored, my thought is I am seeing a White Styrofoam cup. These throwaway cups were usually stacked next to the large coffee pots that used to sit in break rooms, lobby's, cafeterias, etc. A person drinking coffee out of a White Styrofoam Cup would also account for the head tilting back and forth.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 23, 2020, 10:42:38 PM
  There has been so much manipulation of the JFK Assassination images in general, I kinda shake my head at the brightness your whatever that image you proffered shows. When I look at that image undoctored, my thought is I am seeing a White Styrofoam cup. These throwaway cups were usually stacked next to the large coffee pots that used to sit in break rooms, lobby's, cafeterias, etc. A person drinking coffee out of a White Styrofoam Cup would also account for the head tilting back and forth.
I  had thought of something along those lines originally but was dissuaded by two things - when the 'cup' is held to the face the head is tilted forward (not a natural drinking position) and when it is in the lower position the hand holding it would obscure it.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 23, 2020, 11:22:53 PM

  Head bob aside, the GIF you posted does show the object Emitting Light/Glowing or reflecting Light. Being this person is supposed to be buried in shadow rules out a reflection. I have seen cameras used prior to "63" with Flash Bulbs. When the flash bulb FLASHES it actually Pops and then maintains a Glow for a few seconds. To me, The Light on your GIF is too large to be from a cigarette lighter. The size of that light covers half of the entire face/head. This is why I wonder what has been done to that image. If that light has been augmented/Brightened in order to make it easier to see, this might also be distorting its' overall size. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 24, 2020, 10:40:18 AM
It could be a smoker, yes. I use both hands to light up, indoors or out.

Back then, almost everybody smoked, but Oswald didn't. Does the light suddenly disappear in the rest of the footage, i.e. the lighter was switched off?

Nice one Joffrey, I hadn't actually thought of that. The Gif I posted is, I believe, taken from Wiegman. The following pic is from Darnell a matter of seconds later and in it there is no light source:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfrpVtxH/Shadow-Person-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This strongly argues for the light source being something that can 'on or off'. If it is an object such as a cup or a bottle then where does it go in Darnell just seconds later?


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 24, 2020, 10:55:04 AM
The head bobs down. I think he's taking a picture. People bob their head down when putting a camera up to their face.

Hadn't thought of a camera. Not sure how the light source works for that but the main problem for me is that this person has thought to take a camera to work to take pics of the Presidential parade and then stands in the worst spot possible for taking pics of it. In Wiegman the motorcade has already passed by so they would be taking snaps of...Wiegman.
Also, where does the camera suddenly disappear to in Darnell?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 24, 2020, 05:01:53 PM
Nice one Joffrey, I hadn't actually thought of that. The Gif I posted is, I believe, taken from Wiegman. The following pic is from Darnell a matter of seconds later and in it there is no light source:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfrpVtxH/Shadow-Person-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This strongly argues for the light source being something that can 'on or off'. If it is an object such as a cup or a bottle then where does it go in Darnell just seconds later?

    The position of Both Hands at roughly chest height would be highly unusual for a smoker holding a lighted cigarette in only 1 hand. Based on the position of Both hands, what I see is more along the lines of a beverage/coffee? CUP. Suppose someone, (possibly a female), quickly ducked out of their office while carrying their coffee filled Personal Coffee Cup with them?  Their intention was to catch a quick glimpse of Jackie/JFK cruising by the TSBD and then quickly get back to work inside.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 24, 2020, 10:44:28 PM
Those forearms look to me to be too slim for Ms Stanton, who (besides) would have been further back in the shadows alongside Mr Frazier. I think this also rules out Ms Sanders, who was standing beside Ms Stanton. Best bet would be either Ms Avery Davis or Ms Judy McCully (neither of whom worked on the second floor).

(Interesting Sidebar! Mr B. Kamp spoke with Ms McCully's daughter in 2018. She said her mom told her she was actually on the 4th floor at the time of the shooting...)

Mr Lewis gave a radio interview a while back in which he claimed to have been out on the steps (and not behind the front door). At one point, he let the interviewer persuade him he was the figure in Altgens we know to be Mr Carl Edward Jones-----------------not exactly a point in favor of Mr Lewis's credibility!

His March '64 description of his whereabouts at the time of the assassination? 'I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository...'

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Can't help wondering also is Mr Jones over by the (indoor) west wall in Darnell, messing with our perception of Prayer Man's posture?

 Thumb1:

We mutually agree on that point, quote ---->

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Am sitting here pondering how many times--prior to February 1964--he was making every good faith attempt to share his personal experience, and subsequent observations of the wrongly-accused standing right out there on those front entrance steps...which somehow fell upon deaf ears even within his own community. Considering his young age (17), perhaps many of his much older & wiser elders considered he was full of foolish talk. It wouldn't have been the first time, nor the last, when a young person will be largely ignored about their "perception" of an important event.

Of course, less than 48 days after November 22, 1963, his alarming-ramblings somehow made their way out of the comfy confines of his own community back down to the authorities who paid him a little visit ---->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339197/m1/1/

From that day forward, I believe young Mr. Lewis saw the "light" and knew precisely which way the wind was blowing. We can add Mr. Molina & Mr. Frazier to the club as well.

*Sidebar: Though Mr. Lewis is listed in most documents as 17, the above document incorrectly aged him 4 years in merely a two month period.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 24, 2020, 11:11:08 PM

    Based on the still frame image I am looking at, the Ovalish/Wide Upper Torso = a Pregnant Woman.  The Thin Head does Not match the Bulky upper torso = a Pregnant Woman.  And...... a Coffee Cup fits Perfectly into HER (R) Hand & Body Stance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 24, 2020, 11:15:19 PM
My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Ve8lufE.jpg)

Ms Arnold's presence on those steps was erased from history. Because she told the 'investigating' authorities she noticed Mr Lee Harvey Oswald when she went back to that front entrance just before the Presidential parade arrived. (Unlike those already on the steps, she was facing in that direction before she reached them.) They took her statement and distorted it beyond recognition. They made her think her story had gone into the official record. That story also included a sighting of Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade-------------a story which chimed perfectly with what Mr Oswald had claimed in custody, despite the fact that Ms Arnold was not privy to any of the interrogations.

Ms Arnold was, in short, the witness from hell. And so she wasn't called before the Warren Commission.

Years later, Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers contacted Ms Arnold. When she was told what was in her FBI interview report, she reacted very defensively to any suggestion she spotted Mr Oswald behind the front glass door. But she protested a little too much... Why, researchers had to wonder, would the FBI have concocted an Oswald sighting at the front door? Must have come from somewhere! The rational answer: They took what she told them and changed the timeframe, made her location vague enough-----and put words of doubt as to the identification into her mouth...

(https://i.imgur.com/heUcVA0.jpg)

This provided insulation against the eventuality of Ms Arnold's going public with her sighting. 'Oh, that's not quite what the young lady told us. See for yourself--here's the official interview report.'

By 1978, Ms Arnold no longer wished to tell her story-------------or at least: she now was only prepared to talk about the lunchroom part. Understandable!

However, if I've got this right, then I hope that, while there's still time, she decides to reveal the truth. Because along with Mr BW Frazier (and possibly Mr Roy Edward Lewis), she may be the only living witness left who can finally confirm Mr Oswald's alibi.

In the meantime, thank you, Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:

   Bump regarding Physical Appearance of a Pregnant Woman.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 24, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
The head bobs down. I think he's taking a picture. People bob their head down when putting a camera up to their face.

An interesting assessment. 

Conjures up thoughts about the small spy camera found within the possessions of the wrongly accused by DPD Detective Gus Rose ----->

A camera smaller than a cigar and weighing less than a cigarette lighter. -- *This description of the original Minox camera is taken from German manufacturer-company literature



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 01:14:28 AM
An interesting assessment. 

Conjures up thoughts about the small spy camera found within the possessions of the wrongly accused by DPD Detective Gus Rose ----->

A camera smaller than a cigar and weighing less than a cigarette lighter. -- *This description of the original Minox camera is taken from German manufacturer-company literature

Somebody bringing a camera to work in order to take pictures of the President would hardly be stood in this position. They would surely move the short distance to the edge of Elm Street to do so. Taking pictures of the backs of people lined up to see the motorcade pass by hardly seems worthwhile going to the effort of bringing in the camera, not to mention the President has already passed by.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 25, 2020, 03:09:00 AM
A bombshell revelation @ Ms. Judith McCully's clarification where she really was positioned when the P-parade passed the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) on Friday, November 22, 1963.

Is this yet another instance where the authorities dictated the "evidence"? What did this young lady observe from her actual position on an upper floor inside the building that afternoon that necessitated her removal to outside? Did she confirm the immediate actions of Ms. Adams & Ms. Styles? Did her actual position upstairs & inside the building debunk the hastily contrived script about a lone gunman descending the backstairs?

Was she, Ms. Adams, Ms. Styles and Ms. Arnold victims of misogynistic behavior? In the early 1960's, Were women expected to be seen and not heard?

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly. It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.
-- Belin

It should make all the difference in the world, Mr. Belin.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 10:06:09 AM
An interesting assessment. 

Conjures up thoughts about the small spy camera found within the possessions of the wrongly accused by DPD Detective Gus Rose ----->

A camera smaller than a cigar and weighing less than a cigarette lighter. -- *This description of the original Minox camera is taken from German manufacturer-company literature

 ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjK7BxbD/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The arguments against this being a camera held to the face are as follows:

It doesn't make sense to be taking photographs from this position  - in the '60's taking photos was not like it is today. Back then film was precious and people approached taking snaps in a different than we do today. There were only a very limited amount of pics that could be taken and, compared to today, it was a relatively expensive and time-consuming operation. Standing in the corner of the TSBD front entrance makes no sense as a place to take pictures. The pictures would be of the backs of those lining Elm Street mostly obscuring the Presidential motorcade. If it was someone taking a photos I feel confident they would walk the very short distance to the edge of Elm Street to capture the unique occurrence of the President driving by their place of work.
In the first image the head tilts forward when the light source is close to the face - its an unnatural position to tilt your head to look through a viewfinder unless you're taking a picture of the ground and it's more customary to hold the camera up to your face rather than lean your head forward to meet the camera.
We know the light source isn't a reflection of sunlight so what is the source of light. A flash bulb? Seems most unlikely it would be visible in both the upper and lower position of the arms but most importantly, it was a beautiful sunny day, a flash bulb wouldn't be used!
Where is this relatively bulky item in the Darnell image taken seconds later?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
    The position of Both Hands at roughly chest height would be highly unusual for a smoker holding a lighted cigarette in only 1 hand. Based on the position of Both hands, what I see is more along the lines of a beverage/coffee? CUP. Suppose someone, (possibly a female), quickly ducked out of their office while carrying their coffee filled Personal Coffee Cup with them?  Their intention was to catch a quick glimpse of Jackie/JFK cruising by the TSBD and then quickly get back to work inside.
I agree, it would be highly unusual to hold a cigarette with both hands. So unusual it seems like a ridiculous point to make.
Both hands to hold a cup? What's it made of? Solid gold?
The right arm is in a perfectly natural position to be holding a cigarette, if the person is holding something else in their other hand it might explain the position of the left arm but this position doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the right arm. Your assumption that both hands are being used to hold an object is nothing more than that.
How is this cup generating light in the Wiegman Gif when the sun isn't reflecting off it? How is it generating light when the hand would be obscuring it in the lower position? If the object being held in the hand is something to drink out of why is the head tilted downward? This is not the way to drink anything.

Why is this person getting back to work when its the lunch break? There's still about a quarter of an hour to go before anyone has to get back inside to work.
This is obviously not something you've given much thought to. The idea that it is someone lighting a cigarette answers all these questions and more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjK7BxbD/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on July 25, 2020, 01:50:58 PM
I think a Coke bottle is the most likely explanation.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 25, 2020, 04:35:12 PM
I agree, it would be highly unusual to hold a cigarette with both hands. So unusual it seems like a ridiculous point to make.
Both hands to hold a cup? What's it made of? Solid gold?
The right arm is in a perfectly natural position to be holding a cigarette, if the person is holding something else in their other hand it might explain the position of the left arm but this position doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the right arm. Your assumption that both hands are being used to hold an object is nothing more than that.
How is this cup generating light in the Wiegman Gif when the sun isn't reflecting off it? How is it generating light when the hand would be obscuring it in the lower position? If the object being held in the hand is something to drink out of why is the head tilted downward? This is not the way to drink anything.

Why is this person getting back to work when its the lunch break? There's still about a quarter of an hour to go before anyone has to get back inside to work.
This is obviously not something you've given much thought to. The idea that it is someone lighting a cigarette answers all these questions and more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjK7BxbD/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 25, 2020, 04:37:47 PM
Nice one Joffrey, I hadn't actually thought of that. The Gif I posted is, I believe, taken from Wiegman. The following pic is from Darnell a matter of seconds later and in it there is no light source:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfrpVtxH/Shadow-Person-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This strongly argues for the light source being something that can 'on or off'. If it is an object such as a cup or a bottle then where does it go in Darnell just seconds later?

   Bump regarding the Time Gap between Images. In this Image, workers are Now in the process of Re-Entering the TSBD After the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2020, 09:24:00 PM
   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.

What's the time gap between the images?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:20:05 PM
No takers, eh?
I'll describe what I'm seeing, see if it rings any bells with you smokers out there. The Shadow Person is, as the name would suggest, a person stood completely in the shadows, no part of their body is being hit by sunlight.

How do you know this?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:26:37 PM
I think a Coke bottle is the most likely explanation.

Fred

It's very possible, Mr Clements. According to Mr James Hackerott, who has viewed the version of the Darnell film in the Sixth Floor Museum, this dark line is very obvious-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Gl4BBQZ.gif)

He suggests it's something being worn around a (lady's) neck. I think it is more likely to be a Coca Cola bottle in a (man's!) hand.

If so, then its brightness in Wiegman would be due to its catching some direct sunlight.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:34:21 PM
We mutually agree on that point, quote ---->

I believe he was behind that glass door----------------and saw Mr Oswald go through that door and out on to the steps.

Am sitting here pondering how many times--prior to February 1964--he was making every good faith attempt to share his personal experience, and subsequent observations of the wrongly-accused standing right out there on those front entrance steps...which somehow fell upon deaf ears even within his own community. Considering his young age (17), perhaps many of his much older & wiser elders considered he was full of foolish talk. It wouldn't have been the first time, nor the last, when a young person will be largely ignored about their "perception" of an important event.

Of course, less than 48 days after November 22, 1963, his alarming-ramblings somehow made their way out of the comfy confines of his own community back down to the authorities who paid him a little visit ---->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339197/m1/1/

From that day forward, I believe young Mr. Lewis saw the "light" and knew precisely which way the wind was blowing. We can add Mr. Molina & Mr. Frazier to the club as well.

*Sidebar: Though Mr. Lewis is listed in most documents as 17, the above document incorrectly aged him 4 years in merely a two month period.

A fascinating document, sir!  Thumb1: Same deal as with Messrs Shelley, Lovelady, Frazier and Molina, and with (IMO) Ms Carolyn Arnold-----------the 'investigating' authorities were very exercised about front entrance witnesses who either said they had seen, or must have seen, Mr Oswald out front at the time of the shooting.

I reckon Mr Lewis denied having seen Mr Oswald from the start. But the 'investigating' authorities knew where he was and what he must have seen there. So they did 'due diligence' on him, as per the document you have linked to. Nasty stuff!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.

We can also rule out a lit match as it brings zero illumination to the face as the hand goes up to the face.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 04:11:59 PM
   You are Failing to account for the time span Between the Images. If someone is lighting a cigarette, the flame is extinguished Immediately After the cigarette is lit. There is a Time Gap between the Images we are comparing, yet this Illumination Persists. This Time Gap eliminates a cigarette lighter or match being the cause of the illumination/Glow.

The time gap is approximately four seconds between the images which is a perfectly normal time to light a cigarette then hold the light away before extinguishing, particularly if it's a match and not a lighter. No-one is trying to break cigarette-lighting records here. It's a casual action, not necessarily immediate. Of course a cigarette can be lit in less than four seconds before extinguishing the light but this time gap is in no way abnormal. The point is this - if the gap were, say 10 seconds, then I would agree it would rule out a cigarette being lit but the fact is the time-gap factor (something I'd not actually thought about) is within perfectly normal parameters, which only strengthens the argument I'm putting forward.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 04:22:14 PM
How do you know this?

It's as though you're trying to be like John but you don't really know what you're doing. The answer "I'm using my eyes and I can see that the person is completely in shadow" is not going to cut it with someone asking this type of question. I'm sure you'll counter with "How do you know you're using your eyes?"
Is there any reason you might think the Shadow Person is not completely in shadow?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 26, 2020, 04:29:17 PM
The time gap is approximately four seconds between the images which is a perfectly normal time to light a cigarette then hold the light away before extinguishing, particularly if it's a match and not a lighter. No-one is trying to break cigarette-lighting records here. It's a casual action, not necessarily immediate. Of course a cigarette can be lit in less than four seconds before extinguishing the light but this time gap is in no way abnormal. The point is this - if the gap were, say 10 seconds, then I would agree it would rule out a cigarette being lit but the fact is the time-gap factor (something I'd not actually thought about) is within perfectly normal parameters, which only strengthens the argument I'm putting forward.

    An alleged "4 second" time gap is disputable. We frequently hear about JFK Assassination eyewitnesses being in shock or just standing in place wondering what exactly has gone down with the JFK Limo speeding away, SA Hill mounting the trunk, etc. The Darnell image shows people Streaming into the TSBD. Time has obviously passed. Getting back to the actual figure, I think a woman wearing Short White Gloves ending at the Wrists is another possibility for the Illumination. She could be holding a Coke Bottle or a Cup of Joe, but short White Gloves could be the source for the Illumination/Glow.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 26, 2020, 05:23:50 PM
It's very possible, Mr Clements. According to Mr James Hackerott, who has viewed the version of the Darnell film in the Sixth Floor Museum, this dark line is very obvious-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Gl4BBQZ.gif)

He suggests it's something being worn around a (lady's) neck. I think it is more likely to be a Coca Cola bottle in a (man's!) hand.

If so, then its brightness in Wiegman would be due to its catching some direct sunlight.

 Thumb1:



Another interesting observation gentlemen (Messrs Clements & Ford) at possibility of a Coke bottle producing the light source.

Additionally, it just so happens that a Coke bottle was indeed captured on film trained upon the entrance landing (a William Allen photo if I'm not mistaken).

That particular Coke bottle was merely inches from Prayer Man's position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 06:00:11 PM
    An alleged "4 second" time gap is disputable. We frequently hear about JFK Assassination eyewitnesses being in shock or just standing in place wondering what exactly has gone down with the JFK Limo speeding away, SA Hill mounting the trunk, etc. The Darnell image shows people Streaming into the TSBD. Time has obviously passed. Getting back to the actual figure, I think a woman wearing Short White Gloves ending at the Wrists is another possibility for the Illumination. She could be holding a Coke Bottle or a Cup of Joe, but short White Gloves could be the source for the Illumination/Glow.
if I'm understanding you correctly it highlights how poor your contribution to this particular aspect of things has been. The point you raised about the time difference between the two images in the Gif I posted is totally valid. If the gap between the two images is too long my proposal of the images showing someone lighting a cigarette fails. It's a good test of the proposal.
Here's where things start to fall down. I'm talking about the time difference between these two images from Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/htyhhqJG/Prayer-Man-Light.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I used the Wiegman film to locate these two frames and roughly measure the difference between them which turned out to be approximately 4 seconds, a perfectly reasonable time to light a cigarette. But you disputed this 'alleged' timing arguing "Time has obviously passed" because of the "people Streaming into the TSBD". I looked at the images but couldn't understand what you meant. Then it dawned on me - you're talking about the time difference between the Wiegman and Darnell images!!!

WTF ???

And now you're just making the first thing that comes into your head about what the light source might be. White gloves? Really? Why is it glowing? Why aren't both hands glowing? Why has it stopped glowing in the Darnell clip?
Maybe it's Michael Jackson with a single sequined glove on?
Doesn't it look like someone lighting a cigarette and blowing out smoke?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5WQNr7h/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 26, 2020, 06:02:23 PM
*Crediting Mr. Unger's Photograph Gallery, specifically the William Allen set here's that photo depicting the Coke bottle in Prayer Man's location ---->

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=37&pos=60

...just beyond the pointing fore-finger of DPD Chief of Police Jesse Curry, nestled way back up there in Prayer's Man viewing position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 26, 2020, 06:28:13 PM
if I'm understanding you correctly it highlights how poor your contribution to this particular aspect of things has been. The point you raised about the time difference between the two images in the Gif I posted is totally valid. If the gap between the two images is too long my proposal of the images showing someone lighting a cigarette fails. It's a good test of the proposal.
Here's where things start to fall down. I'm talking about the time difference between these two images from Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/htyhhqJG/Prayer-Man-Light.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I used the Wiegman film to locate these two frames and roughly measure the difference between them which turned out to be approximately 4 seconds, a perfectly reasonable time to light a cigarette. But you disputed this 'alleged' timing arguing "Time has obviously passed" because of the "people Streaming into the TSBD". I looked at the images but couldn't understand what you meant. Then it dawned on me - you're talking about the time difference between the Wiegman and Darnell images!!!

WTF ???

And now you're just making the first thing that comes into your head about what the light source might be. White gloves? Really? Why is it glowing? Why aren't both hands glowing? Why has it stopped glowing in the Darnell clip?
Maybe it's Michael Jackson with a single sequined glove on?
Doesn't it look like someone lighting a cigarette and blowing out smoke?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5WQNr7h/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

   Without getting Nasty, I think we are getting back into whatever "augmentation" has been inflicted on these still frames. The Brightness/Glow we are seeing radically contrasts with Everything else in the image. Also, if you believe that person is Standing atop the Landing and is close to the Wall on the immediate (R), that area is Totally immersed in shadow as has been Photo Proven. This makes that extreme Brightness for an extended period of time further questionable. As to the time stamping of Images captured by Different sources, this also touches on the currently accepted Time Stamping of Lovelady and Shelly in contrast to their own Warren Commission Testimony. In general, I personally believe the Time Stamping of many JFK Assassination Images has intentionally been Manipulated/Coordinated to facilitate the manufactured WC story line. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2020, 06:44:22 PM
   Without getting Nasty, I think we are getting back into whatever "augmentation" has been inflicted on these still frames. The Brightness/Glow we are seeing radically contrasts with Everything else in the image. Also, if you believe that person is Standing atop the Landing and is close to the Wall on the immediate (R), that area is Totally immersed in shadow as has been Photo Proven. This makes that extreme Brightness for an extended period of time further questionable. As to the time stamping of Images captured by Different sources, this also touches on the currently accepted Time Stamping of Lovelady and Shelly in contrast to their own Warren Commission Testimony. In general, I personally believe the Time Stamping of many JFK Assassination Images has intentionally been Manipulated/Coordinated to facilitate the manufactured WC story line.
No-one's being nasty Royell. I was being incredulous. IMHO you're contribution to this aspect of things has been poor. I'm sorry but I think that's a fair enough statement. If you really were talking about the time difference between the Wiegmen and the Darnell clips I think this demonstrates how poor it's been. And you do seem to be randomly throwing in suggestions as to what the light source might be without thinking it through, leaving me to do your thinking through for you. I think that's a fair enough statement as well. I don't find your contributions on this particular aspect of things to be considered,
The Time Stamping issue is your own personal belief.
Apologies if my message came across as nasty. It was more frustration than anything else.
That said, do you understand why I'm suggesting this is a person lighting a cigarette:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5WQNr7h/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 26, 2020, 07:49:25 PM


      Other images showing this same area shows us a Glow/Brightness level nowhere close to this. Does anyone know what has been done to these frames? 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 26, 2020, 11:42:40 PM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

A more likely timeline sequence of actual events that afternoon:

12:25PM: The wrongly accused, from his vantage point in the downstairs lunchroom in the back of the building, observes Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman retracing their steps back into the building.

12:28PM: Responsibly cleans up after himself in the downstairs lunchroom, then slips out front per his own admission, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade

12:31-32PM: Returns inside the building, stands just outside the first-floor storage room, amid shock & disbelief about what just unfolded. Is noticed in this downstairs area by Mr. Campbell and his accompanying party as they return inside the building.

12:34PM: Comes to the aid of Inspector Sawyer ----->

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.


12:36PM: Comes to the aid of local newsman personality Mr. Allman (Pierce), directing him to where the phones are.

12:37PM: A short while later, Now comes to the aid of Mr. MacNeil (Robert) ---->

“As I ran up the steps, this young guy in shirt sleeves came out. I said, ‘where is there a phone?’ He said, ‘you better ask inside,” MacNeil said. “I didn’t register his face because I was obsessed with finding a phone. . . . Much later, it occurred to me that I was going in just about the time Oswald had been going out.”

"went outside and stood around for 5 or 10 minutes with Bill Shelley"  --  The wrongly accused

Obviously Shelley would deny this. Obviously Inspector Sawyer couldn't identify "A Man", (nor dd WC counsel Belin seem interested in identifying, quote, This Man, either).

When we connect the dots from where the wrongly accused establishes his airtight alibi, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade, it lines up rather cohesively with where he is later sighted at the downstairs storage room, then in close proximity to the first-floor elevators brb...more to follow...

Then when we take the bombshell revelation of Ms. Judith McCully into consideration, where she stands firm now that she was indeed upstairs in her office, which just so happens to be right off the elevator when Mr. Sawyer and "This man" disembark on the 4th floor, Did Ms. McCully's observations run counter to the hastily contrived script rearing its head two flights below and in the rear of the building as oppose to "A man"'s actual position? Did the authorities help Ms. McCully to see the "light" a couple of months later when she changed her initial statement? to comply with she couldn't have seen "This man" because she was downstairs all along...

Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Off here for now ladies & gentlemen, be safe everyone & stay healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.







Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 27, 2020, 01:21:27 AM
It's as though you're trying to be like John but you don't really know what you're doing. The answer "I'm using my eyes and I can see that the person is completely in shadow" is not going to cut it with someone asking this type of question. I'm sure you'll counter with "How do you know you're using your eyes?"
Is there any reason you might think the Shadow Person is not completely in shadow?

The simple addition of “in my opinion” would resolve a lot of these conflicts you keep having.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 27, 2020, 01:37:12 AM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

A more likely timeline sequence of actual events that afternoon:

12:25PM: The wrongly accused, from his vantage point in the downstairs lunchroom in the back of the building, observes Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman retracing their steps back into the building.

12:28PM: Responsibly cleans up after himself in the downstairs lunchroom, then slips out front per his own admission, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade

12:31-32PM: Returns inside the building, stands just outside the first-floor storage room, amid shock & disbelief about what just unfolded. Is noticed in this downstairs area by Mr. Campbell and his accompanying party as they return inside the building.

12:34PM: Comes to the aid of Inspector Sawyer ----->

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.


12:36PM: Comes to the aid of local newsman personality Mr. Allman (Pierce), directing him to where the phones are.

12:37PM: A short while later, Now comes to the aid of Mr. MacNeil (Robert) ---->

“As I ran up the steps, this young guy in shirt sleeves came out. I said, ‘where is there a phone?’ He said, ‘you better ask inside,” MacNeil said. “I didn’t register his face because I was obsessed with finding a phone. . . . Much later, it occurred to me that I was going in just about the time Oswald had been going out.”

"went outside and stood around for 5 or 10 minutes with Bill Shelley"  --  The wrongly accused

Obviously Shelley would deny this. Obviously Inspector Sawyer couldn't identify "A Man", (nor dd WC counsel Belin seem interested in identifying, quote, This Man, either).

When we connect the dots from where the wrongly accused establishes his airtight alibi, quote, Then went outside to watch P. parade, it lines up rather cohesively with where he is later sighted at the downstairs storage room, then in close proximity to the first-floor elevators brb...more to follow...

Then when we take the bombshell revelation of Ms. Judith McCully into consideration, where she stands firm now that she was indeed upstairs in her office, which just so happens to be right off the elevator when Mr. Sawyer and "This man" disembark on the 4th floor, Did Ms. McCully's observations run counter to the hastily contrived script rearing its head two flights below and in the rear of the building as oppose to "A man"'s actual position? Did the authorities help Ms. McCully to see the "light" a couple of months later when she changed her initial statement? to comply with she couldn't have seen "This man" because she was downstairs all along...

Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Off here for now ladies & gentlemen, be safe everyone & stay healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

If Oswald said that, then it must be true
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2020, 12:24:43 PM
The simple addition of “in my opinion” would resolve a lot of these conflicts you keep having.
You've obviously not noted how carefully worded my recent posts have been thanks to your meticulous scrutiny. What you do is important in a forum like this but it can go over the top.
As long as I'm having my little 'conflicts' it means I'm still learning. When the conflicts stop I've either found the truth or gone into denial.
Don't you think this really looks like someone lighting a cigarette  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRWL8GfW/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 27, 2020, 03:51:52 PM
Don't you think this really looks like someone lighting a cigarette  8)

Not particularly.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2020, 06:50:15 PM
Not particularly.
Out of interest, what do you think it looks like?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2020, 07:08:59 PM

Another interesting observation gentlemen (Messrs Clements & Ford) at possibility of a Coke bottle producing the light source.

Additionally, it just so happens that a Coke bottle was indeed captured on film trained upon the entrance landing (a William Allen photo if I'm not mistaken).

That particular Coke bottle was merely inches from Prayer Man's position.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

This probably accounts for the coke bottle on the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

If Oswald said that, then it must be true

If he said that, and they pretended he said something else, then it probably is true.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 28, 2020, 01:13:12 AM
Out of interest, what do you think it looks like?

A reflection.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2020, 11:29:57 AM
A reflection.

From the sun? In both positions?
The Shadow Person is completely in shadow (please demonstrate otherwise if you believe that's not the case. All I can say is "I can see that with my eyes" which hardly constitutes proof) yet, you seem to be implying, they are holding something that the sun reflects off in both the higher and lower positions without ever having any part of their body in the sun.
What could the sun be reflecting off? Well, we can safely say it's not something you drink out of. The head tilted forward when the "reflection" is close to the face seems like a completely unnatural drinking position. We can also assume the Coke bottle on the steps is Lovelady's.
I wonder what you could be referring to?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 01:07:14 PM
From the sun? In both positions?
The Shadow Person is completely in shadow (please demonstrate otherwise if you believe that's not the case. All I can say is "I can see that with my eyes" which hardly constitutes proof) yet, you seem to be implying, they are holding something that the sun reflects off in both the higher and lower positions without ever having any part of their body in the sun.
What could the sun be reflecting off? Well, we can safely say it's not something you drink out of. The head tilted forward when the "reflection" is close to the face seems like a completely unnatural drinking position. We can also assume the Coke bottle on the steps is Lovelady's.
I wonder what you could be referring to?

If this is a bottle, then (as I see it)---------

When bottle is held near-vertically, some of its lower part is forward enough to catch some sunlight

When bottle is brought up to mouth, its underside is far forward enough to catch some sunlight, as is the man's right elbow.

The man's head does not tilt forward when he brings the bottle to his mouth. It tilts back!

(https://i.imgur.com/T6ekbea.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 28, 2020, 01:34:25 PM
I don't understand the importance of Drinking Man. Y'all think it could be Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2020, 03:01:43 PM
If this is a bottle, then (as I see it)---------

When bottle is held near-vertically, some of its lower part is forward enough to catch some sunlight

When bottle is brought up to mouth, its underside is far forward enough to catch some sunlight, as is the man's right elbow.

The man's head does not tilt forward when he brings the bottle to his mouth. It tilts back!

(https://i.imgur.com/T6ekbea.gif)

I concede that the person's right elbow does indeed seem to catch the sunlight and humbly retract my earlier assertion that no part of the Shadow Person is in sunlight.
That said, I'm really struggling to see the head tilting backwards when the light source is at the face. I cannot get away from the distinct impression it is tilting forward, then straightening up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5QpX9zL/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Looking at the hairline, you really think the head is tilting backwards?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 28, 2020, 04:30:03 PM

  The shadow created by the West Wall and where that shadow Specifically falls at 12:30 on 11/22 is Well Documented. If You believe the Person-In-Question is standing: (1) atop the Landing + (2) close to the West Wall, = No Way In Hell the Sun is falling across ANY Portion of this Person-In-Question. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 04:52:08 PM
  The shadow created by the West Wall and where that shadow Specifically falls at 12:30 on 11/22 is Well Documented. If You believe the Person-In-Question is standing: (1) atop the Landing + (2) close to the West Wall, = No Way In Hell the Sun is falling across ANY Portion of this Person-In-Question.

Mr Storing, I do NOT believe Prayer Man is atop the landing------------his right elbow is way too close to the brick column:

(https://i.imgur.com/iCMPbGB.gif)

Mr Stancak has studied the shadowline VERY closely. While his reconstruction of Prayer Man's leg-posture is open to question, he has successfully shown how Prayer Man could have caught a little bit of direct sunlight:

(https://i.imgur.com/uQKEhNz.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 04:53:24 PM
I don't understand the importance of Drinking Man. Y'all think it could be Oswald?

Yes! No other credible candidate has been put forward------------after 7 years of intensive effort to find one!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 28, 2020, 05:01:13 PM
I concede that the person's right elbow does indeed seem to catch the sunlight and humbly retract my earlier assertion that no part of the Shadow Person is in sunlight.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

Quote
That said, I'm really struggling to see the head tilting backwards when the light source is at the face. I cannot get away from the distinct impression it is tilting forward, then straightening up.

Looking at the hairline, you really think the head is tilting backwards?

That's not Prayer Man's hairline-------it's his neck/chin!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 28, 2020, 05:14:38 PM
Mr Storing, I do NOT believe Prayer Man is atop the landing------------his right elbow is way too close to the brick column:

(https://i.imgur.com/iCMPbGB.gif)

Mr Stancak has studied the shadowline VERY closely. While his reconstruction of Prayer Man's leg-posture is open to question, he has successfully shown how Prayer Man could have caught a little bit of direct sunlight:

(https://i.imgur.com/uQKEhNz.jpg)

 Thumb1:

   We can quibble as to where this Person-In-Question Might be positioned, but the muddled depiction of the West Wall Shadow as seen above is INCORRECT!  The shadow was Photographed on 11/22 and that photo was posted on a different thread. That shadow extends about midway across the Glass Door. As I recall, that shadow across the glass door was roughly straight back from the overhead  light above the landing. The above depiction of the shadow with the people further obscuring where the shadow Specifically Falls = INACCURATE. Also, based on the shadow we see above, if you are going to move the Person-In-Question DOWN onto the steps, then you also Need to Move Lovelady Down below the Person-In-Question in order for Lovelady to have that shadow falling across Half of his body. Lovelady testified that he was standing atop the Landing. The shadow depiction above is a House Of Cards that is collapsing under its own Inaccurate Weight.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2020, 07:11:17 PM
Is it my imagination or is the shadow line on the interior ceiling moving about in an unusual way? Has this been messed about with or am I having a 'senior moment'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/59GtBZgs/a-TSBD-GIF.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 09:05:14 AM
   We can quibble as to where this Person-In-Question Might be positioned, but the muddled depiction of the West Wall Shadow as seen above is INCORRECT!  The shadow was Photographed on 11/22 and that photo was posted on a different thread. That shadow extends about midway across the Glass Door. As I recall, that shadow across the glass door was roughly straight back from the overhead  light above the landing. The above depiction of the shadow with the people further obscuring where the shadow Specifically Falls = INACCURATE.

No, Mr Storing, we've been through this before. Don't you remember Mr Mytton's Epic Boo-Boo? The landing is much further back these days than it was in 1963. Mr Stancak's setting of the shadow line is spot on!  Thumb1:

Quote
Also, based on the shadow we see above, if you are going to move the Person-In-Question DOWN onto the steps, then you also Need to Move Lovelady Down below the Person-In-Question in order for Lovelady to have that shadow falling across Half of his body.

Lovelady? That's Mr Frazier in Mr Stancak's recreation!

As for the shadow falling down half of Mr Lovelady's body in Wiegman, we established many moons ago that it is fake. Mr Lovelady is nowhere near the shadow line.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 09:24:14 AM
Is it my imagination or is the shadow line on the interior ceiling moving about in an unusual way? Has this been messed about with or am I having a 'senior moment'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/59GtBZgs/a-TSBD-GIF.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

No senior moment, Mr O'Meara! Mr Wiegman's angle to the entrance is not perfectly consistent between the two frames. Note how far away the front line of spectators is, and then how close.........

(https://i.imgur.com/wl7lpPB.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on July 29, 2020, 11:22:12 AM
Is it my imagination or is the shadow line on the interior ceiling moving about in an unusual way? Has this been messed about with or am I having a 'senior moment'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/59GtBZgs/a-TSBD-GIF.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Dan, it looks like Lovelady moved down and to his right in succeeding photos.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 29, 2020, 01:46:34 PM
Yes! No other credible candidate has been put forward------------after 7 years of intensive effort to find one!

 Thumb1:

The problem is that there is not a single witness who stated he/she saw Oswald outside, in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination, right? If someone could have provided Oswald with an ironclad alibi I am sure at least one or perhaps a few would have spoken up, don't you? Especially his friend Frazier.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 03:57:29 PM
The problem is that there is not a single witness who stated he/she saw Oswald outside, in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination, right? If someone could have provided Oswald with an ironclad alibi I am sure at least one or perhaps a few would have spoken up, don't you? Especially his friend Frazier.

Or! Not a single witness was willing or allowed to go on the record stating that they had seen Mr Oswald out there. His friend Mr Frazier was threatened with a conspiracy to assassinate JFK charge. So was another employee who happened to have been standing at that door: Mr Molina. If you were told that you or your family would not be safe in the event that you failed to keep your mouth shut, would you be quick to proclaim the truth to the world?

I have no doubt that Mr Oswald

1) went unsurprisingly unnoticed by most people out on those steps (he wasn't yet famous, remember!)
2) did not go unnoticed by (at a minimum tally) Messrs Frazier, Molina, Shelley, Truly & Officer Baker

Thankfully, we have ample evidence supporting the claim that Mr Oswald did indeed go out onto those steps to watch the motorcade:

a) Mr Oswald's own claim to that effect in custody ("Then went outside to watch P. parade")
b) The lies told about Mr Oswald's claim (=proof of cover-up)
c) The distortion(s) of Ms Carolyn Arnold's witness recollection
d) The proven impossibility of the 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film (---> what, if not something Oswald-related, did they want to hide??)
e) The Day-1 statements by DPD that Mr Oswald was seen at the front entrance immediately after the shooting
f) FBI agents' intense relief (as noted by Mr Billy Lovelady) when it turned out that the man in the doorway in Altgens was not Mr Oswald
g) the presence in both the Wiegman and the Darnell films of this guy standing over on his own by the west wall of the entrance, whom nobody for the life of them can explain away as someone other than Mr Oswald (and believe me they have tried!):

(https://i.imgur.com/NKbgFvd.gif)

It seems unlikely at this stage that Mr Frazier will ever find the courage to confirm that yes, his friend was out there. At least not verbally. However, I honestly believe he may have already come clean non-verbally---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/rkCVxEz.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2020, 03:59:46 PM
Dan, it looks like Lovelady moved down and to his right in succeeding photos.

Good grief, Mr Mitcham, you're still pushing the absurd claim that Mr Lovelady went close enough to the west wall to catch all that natural shadow?  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 29, 2020, 05:57:15 PM
Or! Not a single witness was willing or allowed to go on the record stating that they had seen Mr Oswald out there. His friend Mr Frazier was threatened with a conspiracy to assassinate JFK charge. So was another employee who happened to have been standing at that door: Mr Molina. If you were told that you or your family would not be safe in the event that you failed to keep your mouth shut, would you be quick to proclaim the truth to the world?

I have no doubt that Mr Oswald

1) went unsurprisingly unnoticed by most people out on those steps (he wasn't yet famous, remember!)
2) did not go unnoticed by (at a minimum tally) Messrs Frazier, Molina, Shelley, Truly & Officer Baker

Thankfully, we have ample evidence supporting the claim that Mr Oswald did indeed go out onto those steps to watch the motorcade:

a) Mr Oswald's own claim to that effect in custody ("Then went outside to watch P. parade")
b) The lies told about Mr Oswald's claim (=proof of cover-up)
c) The distortion(s) of Ms Carolyn Arnold's witness recollection
d) The proven impossibility of the 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film (---> what, if not something Oswald-related, did they want to hide??)
e) The Day-1 statements by DPD that Mr Oswald was seen at the front entrance immediately after the shooting
f) FBI agents' intense relief (as noted by Mr Billy Lovelady) when it turned out that the man in the doorway in Altgens was not Mr Oswald
g) the presence in both the Wiegman and the Darnell films of this guy standing over on his own by the west wall of the entrance, whom nobody for the life of them can explain away as someone other than Mr Oswald (and believe me they have tried!):

(https://i.imgur.com/NKbgFvd.gif)

It seems unlikely at this stage that Mr Frazier will ever find the courage to confirm that yes, his friend was out there. At least not verbally. However, I honestly believe he may have already come clean non-verbally---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/rkCVxEz.jpg)

 Thumb1:

   Not sure Why you are showing a Pic of the ALTERED TSBD Landing/Steps. All You are doing is further confusing people that are unaware that the Steps/Landing were Changed AFTER 11/22/63. At the time of the Assassination, that Landing was Less than 4 feet Deep, and people were actually able to lean against the West Wall due to there being No handrail on that side of the Steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 12:30:39 AM
   Not sure Why you are showing a Pic of the ALTERED TSBD Landing/Steps. All You are doing is further confusing people that are unaware that the Steps/Landing were Changed AFTER 11/22/63. At the time of the Assassination, that Landing was Less than 4 feet Deep, and people were actually able to lean against the West Wall due to there being No handrail on that side of the Steps.

Way to miss the point completely, Mr Storing!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on July 30, 2020, 12:44:00 AM
Way to miss the point completely, Mr Storing!

   I got your point. Other than showing the viewer Buell, that picture does More Damage than Good.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 12:49:27 AM
   I got your point. Other than showing the viewer Buell, that picture does More Damage than Good.

No, you missed my point. The picture shows Mr Frazier pointing to the very spot Prayer Man was standing in. Either he's being monumentally unmindful, or he knows just what he's doing.

But you are right: the picture does More Damage than Good-------to your bizarre cause of keeping Mr Oswald away from those steps!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 30, 2020, 01:11:22 AM
  We just disagree. The Only thing putting Oswald outside the TSBD when the JFK Limo went by is Oswald himself claiming such. How can anyone believe what is coming outta the mouth of someone carrying 2 Different ID's in their pocket? That alone destroys Oswald's credibility.

Why do you believe he was carrying 2 different IDs in his pocket?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 01:14:05 AM
  We just disagree. The Only thing putting Oswald outside the TSBD when the JFK Limo went by is Oswald himself claiming such. How can anyone believe what is coming outta the mouth of someone carrying 2 Different ID's in their pocket? That alone destroys Oswald's credibility.

someone carrying 2 Different ID's in their pocket

Did he? Really?

Bentley took Oswald's wallet of him in the car and did not find an ID in a different name. There is no report whatsoever that confirms a second ID having been found in the wallet taken from Oswald in the car.

The first time the Hidell ID pops up is at the police station, when Gus Rose (who just started work) gets handed a wallet by an unidentified cop and only then did that wallet have two ID's in it. There is not a shred of evidence this is the same wallet as the one Bentley took from Oswald in the car.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 01:39:45 AM
  If anyone believes the Alek Hidell ID Card with Oswald's pic on it was planted, just say so.

So you have no proof that Oswald actually carried two ID's in his wallet? Got it!

You can speculate and assume stuff all you want, but you can't state it as if it is a fact, when it clearly isn't.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 01:56:55 AM
  The Warren Report records the Phony ID info. Guess the Thread doesn't matter. Dumb remains Dumb.

The Warren Report?..... Are you serious? You are really that gullible?

The Warren Report cover up relies on testimony taken 5 months after the fact and that includes the Gus Rose story.

There is no first day evidence whatsoever about a Hidell ID in Oswald's wallet.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 09:38:00 AM
  We just disagree. The Only thing putting Oswald outside the TSBD when the JFK Limo went by is Oswald himself claiming such.

Glad to see you have finally accepted the reality that he did indeed make that claim!  Thumb1:

His claim was suppressed by the authorities---a fact you can't explain. Just as you can't offer a reason why a shadow would have been added to Mr Lovelady in Wiegman. Just as you can't offer an alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Etc...

Mr Oswald claimed he went outside to watch the P. parade. His accusers claim he went up to 6 to fire on it. 57 years on from the obscenity of 11/22/63, Mr Oswald's claim is looking a whole lot like the stronger one!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 10:17:21 AM
  So you also believe Oswald being Q/A'd about the phony ID is also fabricated?

No, it doesn't have to be. First of all, we don't know what was actually said as there is no verbatim record. According to his report, written a week after the events, Fritz asked Oswald about the Hidell name, but he never showed him the actual document found in the wallet that Gus Rose was given. So, the Q/A could well be authentic, as far as the name is concerned, although there is no possible way to verify that. And without that verification, the Q/A, if it ever took place, can not support the conclusion that the Hidell ID card came from the wallet that was taken from Oswald in the car by Paul Bentley.

Btw, what is this BS about what I "also believe". Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Besides, it doesn't matter what I believe.

I look at the actual evidence and find that there is no mention of a Hidell ID having been found in the wallet taken from Oswald in the car in any first day DPD report. Paul Bentley went on television the day after Oswald's arrest and he claims that he found the "usual items" such as a credit card and a driver's license in the wallet, but no mention of a second ID.

As if that, by itself, isn't already strange enough, there also is no chain of custody at all for the wallet taken from Oswald. It simply disappears for a while without a trace. That's a totally incomprehensible state of affairs, given the fact that the Hidell ID plays such a significant part in the purchases of the rifle and revolver.... and, I might add, nothing else!

Then we get to the Gus Rose story. He testifies that he was off duty and that he was called in after Kennedy was murdered. When he arrived at the station, Oswald had already been brought in. For some, inexplicable reason, Rose, who was not involved in the arrest and thus had no direct involvement in the case, suddenly gets handed a wallet by a to this day unidentified uniformed officer (Rose thinks might have been "the patrolman who brought him in") who tells him it's Oswald's wallet. The problem with that is, that the officers who brought Oswald to the police station were all plainclothes detectives.

Just like they allegedly "found" the bus ticket and spare bullets for the revolver on Oswald, some three hours after he was brought in and first searched (they missed those items in the first search? Really?), and just like Hill allegedly walked around with the revolver taken from Oswald at the Texas Theater for two hours or so, before presenting a revolver to some men in the DPD lunchroom, as being Oswald's revolver, and just like the white jacket found at a carpark, with, again, no chain of custody, suddenly turning up, back in Westbrook's possession, as a grey jacket with initials on it of DPD officers who never actually handled the jacket.... this wallet suddenly showing up out of nowhere at the police station raises serious questions about the validity of the physical evidence.

Now add to the mix the story about the wallet found at the Tippit murder scene, which did contain two ID's; one for Oswald and the other for Hidell. LNs are quick to deny it's existence, but the fact remains there was mention of a second wallet linked to Oswald and the person who found this particular wallet was an uniformed policeofficer named Croy.

A good defense lawyer would have a field day with this information!

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on July 30, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet. Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out, small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 30, 2020, 04:52:45 PM
Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet. Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out, small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.

Which wallet?  He allegedly had several.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on July 30, 2020, 09:35:36 PM
Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet. Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out, small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.

Actually the famous wallet footage to me doesn't even look like a wallet.

Doesn't matter what it looks like to you. FBI agent Bob Barrett confirms there was a wallet and he was at the scene and actually saw it. That trumps what you think.

Its not Oswalds anyway cos as Dale Myers pointed out

Myers can point out anything he likes, but he wasn't there and thus only has an opinion and a biased opinion at that.

small details are different on the wallet than the wallet Oswald owned.

On what wallet are the details different than on Oswald's wallet?

How can those two wallets be compared when only one wallet (claimed to be Oswald's) is in the National Archive?

How in the world does Myers even know which wallet is Oswald's?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on July 31, 2020, 05:03:21 PM
 The mere fact that this note was hidden from public view for decades is enough to tell us something.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 31, 2020, 11:33:58 PM
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

This probably accounts for the coke bottle on the steps.

That is a possibility, Mr. O'meara, but given Mr. Lovelady's penchant for lying, and the fact his testimony came five months after the assassination ----->

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

it wouldn't surprise that the mechanisms by then to remove any trace of Prayer Man standing there out front in the entrance would already be well underway, thus his coke bottle morphs into yet another misleading falsehood to remove him from the scene.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on July 31, 2020, 11:38:37 PM
Then went outside to watch P. parade -- Lee Harvey Oswald

If Oswald said that, then it must be true

Mr. Chapman, please view the astute response by Mr. Ford in Reply No. 133 within this thread (pg 14)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 12:01:45 AM
The mere fact that this note was hidden from public view for decades is enough to tell us something.

Fred

Well said, Mr. Clements, an astute assessment.

Anything revealing the truth about his innocence would certainly be hidden. A very telling dynamic. The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 01, 2020, 10:01:28 AM
Exactly Mr Ford.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 01, 2020, 11:47:49 AM
The mere fact that this note was hidden from public view for decades is enough to tell us something.

Fred

Hidden? If the note was thought to be a real problem wouldn't they just destroy it?
And doesn't it make sense that after Oswald was asked what he did after he ate lunch, Oswald would reply that he went outside to see the Parade, implying that he had no clue what was happening outside?

Oswald agreed that he was inside the building at the time. If he was outside with his workmates wouldn't he be screaming from the rooftops that he had an rock solid alibi? But obviously he knew he had no alibi because at the time he was on the 6th floor at the snipers nest window shooting Kennedy.

@1:14

JohnM

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 06:39:00 PM
That is a possibility, Mr. O'meara, but given Mr. Lovelady's penchant for lying, and the fact his testimony came five months after the assassination ----->

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

it wouldn't surprise that the mechanisms by then to remove any trace of Prayer Man standing there out front in the entrance would already be well underway, thus his coke bottle morphs into yet another misleading falsehood to remove him from the scene.
Without wanting to sound too harsh I find this to be Magical Thinking. Completely made up and based on nothing. I agree, Lovelady is a liar, but to imagine he is lying about such a trivial detail reveals a desperation to defend two very wrongheaded assumptions:
1) It's Oswald on the steps
2) The light source is a reflection off a glass bottle

My look into this case has taken me in a completely different direction than John Mytton but this is not the first time he's stepped into a thread with something devastating. Here he presents video evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

Oswald: I work in that building [the TSBD]
Reprter: Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

There are so many good arguments against the identification of Oswald as the Shadow Person but none are definitive. This is definitive.
However, too many people have spent too much time defending this nonsense and have now painted themselves into a corner. I look forward to how Magical Thinking copes with definitive video evidence of Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD during the assassination. A record of the words coming out of his own mouth.

This should be entertaining  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 07:00:56 PM
IF anyone genuinely wishes to allow audio evidence coming directly from the wrongly accused to carry irrefutable weight, then they should also give the following recorded statements the same sense of credibility ---->

(A)


(B)


Now that shared, let's examine the instance when Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman share the same space as the wrongly accused brb...excuse me as Fido is nudging me with his wet nose, signaling he wants to go out and answer nature's call...

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 07:21:12 PM
Sorry about that, love Fido but his sense of timing, well that's another matter altogether. Rascal.

Don’t know about anyone else, but where I come from no one in the front of a building six stories up can actually see anything, let alone anyone, in the back of the same building some five stories below, when s/he is supposed to be lurking in ambush five stories above in the front of the building.

There’s no way for the wrongly accused to know Mr. Jarman & Mr. Normsn were reentering the building between 12:25—12:28PM through a backdoor IF he really was anywhere near the front of the building, let alone up on the six floor, yet the wrongly accused described both these men reentering the building from the back via his vantage point in the first floor lunchroom.

90 seconds later per his own words he went outside just in time to view the P. parade. Nothing more, nothing less. The wrongly accused didn’t shoot anybody. Anybody ---->



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 08:05:24 PM
Sorry about that, love Fido but his sense of timing, well that's another matter altogether. Rascal.

Don’t know about anyone else, but where I come from no one in the front of a building six stories up can actually see anything, let alone anyone, in the back of the same building some five stories below, when s/he is supposed to be lurking in ambush five stories above in the front of the building.

There’s no way for the wrongly accused to know Mr. Jarman & Mr. Normsn were reentering the building between 12:25—12:28PM through a backdoor IF he really was anywhere near the front of the building, let alone up on the six floor, yet the wrongly accused described both these men reentering the building from the back via his vantage point in the first floor lunchroom.

90 seconds later per his own words he went outside just in time to view the P. parade. Nothing more, nothing less. The wrongly accused didn’t shoot anybody. Anybody ---->

I agree with all the statements Oswald makes in these videos. I don't believe he shot anybody. After seeing Jarman and Norman come in it seems more likely he went up to the second floor lunchroom. What is definite is that he didn't go outside to watch the parade (parade?) as we have video evidence of him specifically stating he was inside the building when the assassination took place. Something you have completely avoided dealing with.
(Fido sounds like a character, hope he's doing good)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2020, 08:11:01 PM
I agree with all the statements Oswald makes in these videos. I don't believe he shot anybody. After seeing Jarman and Norman come in it seems more likely he went up to the second floor lunchroom. What is definite is that he didn't go outside to watch the parade (parade?) as we have video evidence of him specifically stating he was inside the building when the assassination took place. Something you have completely avoided dealing with.
(Fido sounds like a character, hope he's doing good)

'he was inside the building when the assassination took place'

I agree
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 08:21:26 PM
'he was inside the building when the assassination took place'

I agree
It's hard not to. Video evidence of Oswald specifically stating it is difficult to circumnavigate.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 08:22:34 PM
I agree with all the statements Oswald makes in these videos. I don't believe he shot anybody. After seeing Jarman and Norman come in it seems more likely he went up to the second floor lunchroom. What is definite is that he didn't go outside to watch the parade (parade?) as we have video evidence of him specifically stating he was inside the building when the assassination took place. Something you have completely avoided dealing with.
(Fido sounds like a character, hope he's doing good)

On the contrary, I take the wrongly accused at his word, essentially believing that he indeed was in the building approaching the front door to head outside at the precise time of the shooting sequence. As he came completely through the door to take up his Prayer Man position Mr. Weigman (Dave) followed by Mr. Darnell (Jimmy, RIP) traveling multiples spots behind the presidential limousine in camera cars 10 & 11 respectively capture him on film after the shooting sequence. Nothing more, nothing less.

His words ---->

(A)


(B)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2020, 08:46:19 PM
It's hard not to. Video evidence of Oswald specifically stating it is difficult to circumnavigate.

He said it so it must be true.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2020, 08:52:41 PM
Mr. Chapman, please view the astute response by Mr. Ford in Reply No. 133 within this thread (pg 14)

I've never seen an astute response by any of you lot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 09:23:02 PM
Whereas only one lone witness, Mr. Piper (Eddie) says he saw Roy Truly at the rear stairs, two problems still exists for the hastily contrived script:

(1) Mr. Piper's testimony merely accounts for some guy accompanying Roy Truly, with an inference upon he was wearing street clothes instead of an unmistakable uniformed-dressed motorcycle policeman in an obvious white-helmet & long black-boots).

(2) Mr. Piper also reveals that his sighting of Roy Truly comes several minutes after the shooting sequence, so much for the immediate mad dash upstairs.

Again, a more likely scenario given the reveal of the wrongly accused actually being outside (not to mention that no one else can be accounted for standing in Prayer Man's position per all of the CE 1381 statements )

He slips back inside, taking up a position near the first-floor storage room amid his shock & disbelief about what just happened. He is sighted here by Mr. Campbell and his party returning inside the building. Given the first-floor storage room's close proximity to the first-floor elevator in the front of the building, he is "this man" who comes to the aid of Inspector Sawyer who enters the building at 12:34PM. WC counsel didn't seem interested in identifying Inspector Sawyer's, quote "this man", quickly steering the questioning elsewhere during Inspector Sawyer's testimony.

Later the officials realize they still have a problem when word gets back to them that a Ms. Judy McCully just happened to see Inspector Sawyer's entourage disembark from the elevator on the 4th floor (her statement was subsequently changed to being outside rather than upstairs to avoid the reality that she actually saw the wrongly accused). 

Upon returning downstairs after assisting Inspector Sawyer, the wrongly accused continues to be helpful: aiding Mr. Allman and subsequently Mr. MacNeil (Robert), giving them directions to where they may use a phone, then continues past Mr. MacNeil outside, where he spends 5-10 minutes with Mr. Shelley.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2020, 10:47:08 PM
On the contrary, I take the wrongly accused at his word, essentially believing that he indeed was in the building approaching the front door to head outside at the precise time of the shooting sequence. As he came completely through the door to take up his Prayer Man position Mr. Weigman (Dave) followed by Mr. Darnell (Jimmy, RIP) traveling multiples spots behind the presidential limousine in camera cars 10 & 11 respectively capture him on film after the shooting sequence. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry Alan but once again this has the whiff of Magical Thinking. That is to say, something you are making up because you really want it to be true. But it does bring up an important point I'm unaware of which is how the Wiegman film is synchronised with the assassination. Let's have a look and see if your claim that Wiegman and Darnell " respectively capture him on film after the shooting sequence" holds up.
The obvious marker for the assassination is the shots which most TSBD witnesses claim to hear. Starting with Altgens 6, we see Billy Lovelady leaning out to get a better look at the Presidential limo but, more importantly, we see Carl Edward Jones looking off to the left. Altgens 6 can be synchronised approximately with z255-z260 in Zapruder:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5N6vLCqg/Carl-Edward-Jones-in-Altgens-6.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In the Wiegman Gif below we can see Lovelady moving down to the position we see him in Altgens but the important point is that Carl Jones is still looking to his right. It is safe to assume the Wiegman image with Lovelady in the lower position is taken just before Altgens. The first Wiegman image, with Lovelady in the higher position is taken approximately 4 seconds before the second. From this we can conclude that the Shadow Person is in position before the shot that hits JFK in the back and the head-shot thus blowing your claim out of the water:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJxChg5h/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The last tiny thread you are hanging on to is whether the Shadow Person is in position before the first shot. Even if this can be demonstrated to be the case (which I don't think it can) Oswald's own words, that he was in the building for the assassination, demonstrate he is not Prayer Man.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 01, 2020, 11:34:30 PM
 At best, those of us watching the president reacting to his throat wound in that famous Altgens 6 photo only see the Vice-Presidential follow up car in the frame, with considerable distance between it and the other cars traveling behind it in the parade procession still not even in view yet...

... including the one Mr. Weigman travels in (further behind at least two others in the procession, the Dallas Mayor's car and the National Press Pool Car as well). 

Upon the president's movement to clutch his throat as seen in Altgen's 6, the coup de grâce comes immediately afterwards.  So much so that even Marrion Baker, who is travellng well ahead of both Mr. Weigman and Mr. Darnell  hadn't even reached the point to even park his motorcycle yet. That's more than enough time for the wrongly accused to slip out into autumn air upon a tragic scene unfolding around him. 

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 12:06:39 AM
Folks,

Am heading off here for now, so any posts from this point on directed towards me for a response, I'm not ignoring them as much as I'll have to double back here tomorrow at some point.

That said, to share an idea of how far away Marrion Baker and those travelling behind him and, of course, the presidential limousine ---->

Mr. DULLES - So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage?
Mr. BAKER - Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block.
Mr. DULLES - A half block?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is right.


Safe evening everyone. Stay healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 11:30:48 AM
Oswald agreed that he was inside the building at the time. If he was outside with his workmates wouldn't he be screaming from the rooftops that he had an rock solid alibi? But obviously he knew he had no alibi because at the time he was on the 6th floor at the snipers nest window shooting Kennedy.

@1:14

JohnM

 :D

Poor Mr Mytton, your only resort is to trot out your old long-refuted Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Chestnut!

Mr Oswald never said he was inside the building. He answered in the affirmative when asked if he was 'in' the building. Every time you continue to put the word 'inside' in Mr Oswald's mouth, we see your shameless dishonesty! Thumb1:

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!

That's where Mr Oswald said he was, and the reason he said that was where he was was that that was where he in fact was. And! The reason Captain Fritz and his crooked pals pretended Mr Oswald said he was somewhere other than where he actually said he was..... was that they wanted to frame him for the shooting. And you're still falling for the scam, and devoting yourself to making others fall for it too!

The Hosty note destroys you, Mr Mytton! it's why you tried to argue that Mr Oswald only said he went out to watch the rest of the parade------i.e. the bits that came after JFK! (I am not making this up, folks, it's what poor Mr Mytton actually said!)

(https://i.imgur.com/RrTedsl.jpg)

 :D

As for why Mr Oswald didn't scream his assassination-time location at the press, this too has been addressed-----------multiple times! But you, being a propagandist, pretend you never notice.

So! Once more for the benefit of He Who is Too Blind to See and Too Deaf to Hear:

Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps. Under pressure to pin the shooting on his suspect, and not one to let trivial questions of basic justice get in the way, all he has to do is tell Mr Oswald: 'Look son, we know you didn't fire the actual shots. But we have you tied to the rifle. And that's what we're charging you with.'

Anyhoo, Mr Mytton, we look forward to seeing you pop up again in a few months with the same old easily-disposable garbage!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 11:33:36 AM
My look into this case has taken me in a completely different direction than John Mytton but this is not the first time he's stepped into a thread with something devastating. Here he presents video evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

Oswald: I work in that building [the TSBD]
Reprter: Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

There are so many good arguments against the identification of Oswald as the Shadow Person but none are definitive. This is definitive.
However, too many people have spent too much time defending this nonsense and have now painted themselves into a corner. I look forward to how Magical Thinking copes with definitive video evidence of Oswald placing himself inside the TSBD during the assassination. A record of the words coming out of his own mouth.

This should be entertaining  8)

What should be entertaining, Mr O'Meara, is waiting for you to back up the claim that Mr Oswald places himself 'inside the TSBD during the assassination'.

I suggest you read my reply (in my previous post) to Mr Mytton's nonsense!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 11:42:19 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJxChg5h/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The last tiny thread you are hanging on to is whether the Shadow Person is in position before the first shot. Even if this can be demonstrated to be the case (which I don't think it can) Oswald's own words, that he was in the building for the assassination, demonstrate he is not Prayer Man.

Nope! None of these people on the steps and on the landing can be said to be inside the building. They can however be said to be in the building, because they are within its enclosed front entrance, which still belongs to the building. None of them has left the building by stepping down into the street.

Mr Oswald hears the reporter's question, 'Were you in the building at the time?', as an accusation, and his response makes clear what his focus is: how preposterous it is to hold against him the fact that he was at his place of work. Not fully understanding a) the true accusation that is being brought against him; b) the fact that he will be shot dead before getting a chance to clear his name, he does not think to go into semantics with the reporter. A pity, but there you have it. Thankfully, the discovery of the Hosty note settles the issue once and for all: Mr Oswald claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. parade". Good luck finding wiggle-room ambiguity in those words!

The Hosty note also destroys the lie that Mr Oswald confirmed a post-assassination encounter with a cop and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom just after the assassination. We now know that Mr Oswald claimed to have visited that lunchroom before the motorcade-------------a claim that would be vindicated by Ms Carolyn Arnold (who was not privy to the Hosty note, any more than the rest of the world was!). Thumb1:

Mr Oswald went out on the front steps to watch the motorcade. He is probably Prayer Man. If you still disagree, perhaps you might tell us who you think Prayer Man could be? Can you offer even one candidate name? That would be great, cos no one else has been able to... and that's after seven years of the most intense effort!

The only Magical Thinking going on here, Mr O'Meara, is coming from those who wish to explain away the truly devastating Hosty note!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 02, 2020, 12:24:03 PM
My last post about the synchronisation of the Wiegman film and the assassination was utter balderdash and rookie excitement. So I went away and did what I should have done in the first place and researched it properly. I'm sure it's been done before but I found I could synchronise the Bell, Wiegman and Zapruder films and it threw up some interesting results. The timings are approximate, I'm rounding things up to the nearest second and I'm not sure how reliable the films are in terms of their actual running times versus real time.
Starting with the Bell film. In this version I am using the moment the Presidential limo fully enters the shadow of the Triple Underpass as a marker. This is at 45 seconds in the film. When we roll the film on the camera pans to the right. We see Zapruder and Sitzman are already off the plinth. We then see Mrs Hester starting to get up and no sign of Mr Hester. At 55 seconds I pause the film just before it cuts away and on the right we can see the dark crouching figure of Wiegmen with his fedora on filming Mrs Hester (it is actually closer to 56 seconds so I use a time of 11 seconds from the moment the limo passes into the shadow of the Triple Underpass until the shot of Wiegman filming Mrs Hester)


Now to the Wiegman film. In this version the film starts at 8 seconds and as we let it roll we see the TSBD steps, Wiegman is out of the car and running towards the Hesters, he crouches down and starts filming them, Mr Hester gets up and hides behind one of the columns in the pergola. This is the same moment at 56 seconds in the Bell film. In the Wiegman film this is marked as 32 seconds meaning the total running time of the film is 24 seconds to this point.


Now to Zapruder. I mark the moment the limo passes into the shadow of the Triple Underpass as z471 (27 seconds on this version). We know from the Bell film that 11 seconds after this moment Wiegman is filming Mrs Hester. Knowing that the Wiegman film starts 24 seconds before this point we can work out when the Wiegman film starts in relation to the Zapruder film. Wiegman is filming Mrs Hester 24 seconds after the film starts. If we take 11 seconds off this it gives us the moment the limo has reached the shadow of the Triple Underpass (this is 13 seconds into the Wiegman film but is marked as 21 seconds because the film doesn't start until 8 seconds). It means that when we look at the moment the limo reaches the Triple Underpass in Zapruder we know that Wiegman starts filming 13 seconds before this point. This brings us to 14 seconds in the Zapruder film (z233-z251)


The upshot of all this is that Wiegman starts filming 2-3 seconds after JFK is shot in the back (approximately z223). He is filming before the head-shot which means he captures "Prayer Man" out on the TSBD steps before this moment in contrast to Oswald's own words that he is inside the building for the assassination.
I've always assumed that the head-shot was the third and final shot but something cropped up as I was looking into this that I will follow up on a different thread as it's not really appropriate for this one. Wiegman himself is adamant that as he got out of the car he heard the third shot. In the Wiegman film he is getting out of the car about 8 seconds after the start of the film. In the Zapruder film this is the moment Clint Hill is climbing onto the back of the limo as Jackie moves onto the trunk. If we take Wiegman at face value it indicates that the first shot is the one that hits JFK in the back, the second shot is the head-shot and it is the third shot that misses. Something I will be exploring elsewhere.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 01:11:31 PM
Mr O'Meara, a lot of folks have looked at this Altgens-Wiegman synchronisation question very closely. Mr Mark Tyler's outstanding 'Motorcade 63' animated reconstruction is well worth checking out!

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 02, 2020, 02:13:50 PM

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/a3/3c/b0a33cb677e047af32d0250ec6f00827.jpg)

Too bad that the other people who were on the steps all refer to being on the OUTSIDE.

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by


Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".

(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)

Try again!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 02, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfXZxnnq/hosty-note.jpg)

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.


Oswald was implying that he had no idea what was happening outside.

Btw under Ford's scenario even Oswald refers to being on the steps as being outside. OUCH that's gotta hurt!

Hahahahaha!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 02:32:12 PM
:D

Poor Mr Mytton, your only resort is to trot out your old long-refuted Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Chestnut!

Mr Oswald never said he was inside the building. He answered in the affirmative when asked if he was 'in' the building. Every time you continue to put the word 'inside' in Mr Oswald's mouth, we see your shameless dishonesty! Thumb1:

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!

That's where Mr Oswald said he was, and the reason he said that was where he was was that that was where he in fact was. And! The reason Captain Fritz and his crooked pals pretended Mr Oswald said he was somewhere other than where he actually said he was..... was that they wanted to frame him for the shooting. And you're still falling for the scam, and devoting yourself to making others fall for it too!

The Hosty note destroys you, Mr Mytton! it's why you tried to argue that Mr Oswald only said he went out to watch the rest of the parade------i.e. the bits that came after JFK! (I am not making this up, folks, it's what poor Mr Mytton actually said!)

(https://i.imgur.com/RrTedsl.jpg)

 :D

As for why Mr Oswald didn't scream his assassination-time location at the press, this too has been addressed-----------multiple times! But you, being a propagandist, pretend you never notice.

So! Once more for the benefit of He Who is Too Blind to See and Too Deaf to Hear:

Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps. Under pressure to pin the shooting on his suspect, and not one to let trivial questions of basic justice get in the way, all he has to do is tell Mr Oswald: 'Look son, we know you didn't fire the actual shots. But we have you tied to the rifle. And that's what we're charging you with.'

Anyhoo, Mr Mytton, we look forward to seeing you pop up again in a few months with the same old easily-disposable garbage!

 Thumb1:

CT Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald

Mr Oswald: I'm innocent
CT Judge: Okay, you can go
Mr Oswald: [SMIRK]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 03:13:25 PM
Mr O'Meara, a lot of folks have looked at this Altgens-Wiegman synchronisation question very closely. Mr Mark Tyler's outstanding 'Motorcade 63' animated reconstruction is well worth checking out!

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

Thumb1:

As astute as ever, Mr. Ford, no great surprise considering the credible source, who always seems to have an uncanny knack for sharing exemplary research. Appreciate the timely reference material within your shared link.

That said, it's also interesting how you honed right in on semantics. Again, no great surprise given that critical-thinkers like you aren't beholden to tunnel-vision. Your reference to semantics conjured up memories of my youth, where depending upon what region of the country my pappy was working in, the locals would make reference to , quote, " a soft drink, a soda, a pop and/or a tonic" when speaking of Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, RC Cola, Root Beer, Vernon Ginger-Ale, etc. So your point at semantics is a valid one. It wouldn't surprise if there are other items out there in our world that are also subject to a matter/manner of speaking depending upon the speaker.

Lastly, an excellent point at no one, and I mean no one has be able to credibly put anyone else in Prayer Man's specific position. They have nothing. That's very telling, especially more so given the revealing revelation in Mr. Hosty's notes. I'm open-minded enough to change my contention that Prayer Mn is in fact the wrongly accused IF someone produces a credible candidate to account for his position.

Any takers up to this challenge?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 06:36:16 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfXZxnnq/hosty-note.jpg)

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.


Oswald was implying that he had no idea what was happening outside.

Btw under Ford's scenario even Oswald refers to being on the steps as being outside. OUCH that's gotta hurt!

Hahahahaha!

JohnM

I guess when Ford is on the steps to his house, he's IN his house. Then when he actually unlocks the door and steps forward, he's INSIDE the house.  ::)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 06:43:25 PM
As astute as ever, Mr. Ford, no great surprise considering the credible source, who always seems to have an uncanny knack for sharing exemplary research. Appreciate the timely reference material within your shared link.

That said, it's also interesting how you honed right in on semantics. Again, no great surprise given that critical-thinkers like you aren't beholden to tunnel-vision. Your reference to semantics conjured up memories of my youth, where depending upon what region of the country my pappy was working in, the locals would make reference to , quote, " a soft drink, a soda, a pop and/or a tonic" when speaking of Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, RC Cola, Root Beer, Vernon Ginger-Ale, etc. So your point at semantics is a valid one. It wouldn't surprise if there are other items out there in our world that are also subject to a matter/manner of speaking depending upon the speaker.

Lastly, an excellent point at no one, and I mean no one has be able to credibly put anyone else in Prayer Man's specific position. They have nothing. That's very telling, especially more so given the revealing revelation in Mr. Hosty's notes. I'm open-minded enough to change my contention that Prayer Mn is in fact the wrongly accused IF someone produces a credible candidate to account for his position.

Any takers up to this challenge?

Stop posting to yourself and tell us the difference between being IN a building and being INSIDE a building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 07:02:30 PM
Question: Am I in my house, when I'm out on a screened in porch-patio attached to the overall structure? I would say so as it is a part of the overall structure, where as someone else may come to the conclusion no I'm not because I'm not actually inside my house. Again, as Mr. Ford so aptly pointed out it's simply a case of semantics.

That said, Mr. Chapman, Are you up to the task of producing a candidate to account for Prayer Man's specific position?

Those of us reading along understand why if you cannot do so. There's a reason for that. The wrongly accused is right where he said he was (within the structure of the building outside).



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 08:23:14 PM
Question: Am I in my house, when I'm out on a screened in porch-patio attached to the overall structure? I would say so as it is a part of the overall structure, where as someone else may come to the conclusion no I'm not because I'm not actually inside my house. Again, as Mr. Ford so aptly pointed out it's simply a case of semantics.

That said, Mr. Chapman, Are you up to the task of producing a candidate to account for Prayer Man's specific position?

Those of us reading along understand why if you cannot do so. There's a reason for that. The wrongly accused is right where he said he was (within the structure of the building outside).

Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

The TSBD steps were not enclosed.
Some people were outside on the steps, not inside the building.
Definitly on the premises, though.
Which includes the Cuckoo's Nest, of course ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 02, 2020, 08:27:00 PM
Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

The TSBD steps were not enclosed.
Some people were outside on the steps, not inside the building.

Definitly on the premises, though.
Which includes the Cuckoo's Nest, of course ;)
Was he in the lunchroom or inside the lunchroom?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 08:32:34 PM
Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

The TSBD steps were not enclosed.
Some people were outside on the steps, not inside the building.

Definitly on the premises, though.
Which includes the Cuckoo's Nest, of course ;)

Show/share with those of us reading along, Mr. Chapman, where the wrongly accused said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed). Caution: Not where a third-party wrote that he said it, but directly from the wrongly accused will suffice.

What next, the steps were detached from the entrance closure and were waaaay out in the street, Mr. Chapman?

You probably also believe that from his loftier ambition spot he still somehow managed to see two human beings (Mr. Jarman and Mr. Norman) reenter the building between 12:25-12:28PM from the rear while he was supposedly six stories up in the front of the building. Am I understanding you clearly, Mr. Chapman?

Once again, Are you up to the task of producing a credible candidate to account for Prayer Man's specific position?

Those of us reading along understand why if you cannot do so. There's a reason for that
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 08:46:44 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/a3/3c/b0a33cb677e047af32d0250ec6f00827.jpg)

Too bad that the other people who were on the steps all refer to being on the OUTSIDE.

As did Mr Oswald! "Then went outside to watch P. parade."  Thumb1:

Quote
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by


Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".

(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)

Try again!

JohnM

 :D :D :D

The fact that you have to work so hard to find such a paltry counter-argument shows just how worried you are, Mr Mytton!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfXZxnnq/hosty-note.jpg)

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.


Oswald was implying that he had no idea what was happening outside.

 :D

No, Mr Mytton, he was stating that he went outside to watch the motorcade. Which is what he did---------which is why Captain Fritz and his pals hid his statement from the world!

On your rather desperate reading, Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz: 'A cop came running into the room, stuck a gun in my belly and asked me if I worked there. Mr Truly told him I did and they went off running up the stairs. This happens to us employees most days around lunchtime, so I didn't think anything of it. Then I went downstairs, had lunch and went outside to watch the Presidential parade. Imagine my surprise when...'

Great theory you got there, Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:

Quote
Btw under Ford's scenario even Oswald refers to being on the steps as being outside. OUCH that's gotta hurt!

What's gotta hurt, Mr Mytton, is that you can't for the life of you find a way to rebut the simple fact that there is only one place that can be said to be both 'in the building' and 'outside': the front entranceway!

Of course, had the reporter asked Mr Oswald, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', it's likely Mr Oswald would have answered a little more expansively along the lines, 'Well, sir, I was on the front steps of the building.' A pity that's not how it played out? Sure. But now----------thanks to the Hosty draft report that has broken your heart----------we know exactly where Mr Oswald claimed to have been. So... you lose------again!   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 09:02:33 PM
CT Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald

Mr Oswald: I'm innocent
CT Judge: Okay, you can go
Mr Oswald: [SMIRK]

Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.

WC counsel: Where did Oswald say he was when the President passed the building?
Captain Fritz: He said he was inside.

Good enough for Mr Chapman!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 09:07:43 PM
Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.

WC counsel: Where did Oswald say he was when the President passed the building?
Captain Fritz: He said he was inside.

Good enough for Mr Chapman!  :D

Oh noooo! Say it ain't so, Captain Fritz...amazing what some people will do & say for thirty pieces of silver. Thank goodness for all the honest to goodness Frank Serpicos who couldn't be bought.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 02, 2020, 09:13:21 PM
Oh noooo! Say it ain't so, Captain Fritz...amazing what some people will do & say for thirty pieces of silver. Thank goodness for all the honest to goodness Frank Serpicos who couldn't be bought.

I can't help wondering did Agent Hosty deliberately leave his draft report in his notes, secure in the knowledge that it would meet the daylight of day sooner or later... It is striking how he never backed up the claim that Mr Oswald talked about any post-assassination second-floor lunchroom encounter with a cop and Mr Truly.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 09:17:58 PM
Was he in the lunchroom or inside the lunchroom?

Was he in the lunchroom or inside the lunchroom?

In or inside

Where was Oswald at 12:30-ish that afternoon?
1) In the lunchroom/inside the lunchroom
2) In the sniper's nest/inside the sniper's nest

Used in a sentence

1) Oswald was in the sniper's nest at 12:30-ish and in a lunchroom some 75-90 seconds later
2) Oswald was inside the sniper's nest at 12:30-ish and inside a lunchroom some 75-90 seconds later

Was it an inside job?
Was Oswald 'in with the in-crowd?'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 02, 2020, 10:02:14 PM
I can't help wondering did Agent Hosty deliberately leave his draft report in his notes, secure in the knowledge that it would meet the daylight of day sooner or later... It is striking how he never backed up the claim that Mr Oswald talked about any post-assassination second-floor lunchroom encounter with a cop and Mr Truly.

 Thumb1:

Men of honour have a way of appeasing the prevalent winds of their day while simultaneously leaving discreet clues to challenge treason when they witness it. Courage & integrity like theirs doesn't grow on trees.

Sdebar: Should you venture back this way Mr. Ford, no need to respond to this sidebar addendum, but for clarification sake and, of course, in fairness to you & those reading along just wanted you to be aware that my initial interest into the JFK assassination came about in May, 2014. In those days, I was able to register a forum membership in my name without the use of my middle initial. Though I was a young puppy then, I dared to jump over in the deep end of the pool so to speak. My avatar then featured Charlton Heston upon a horse drawn chariot right out of the movie Ben Hur. In those days, given my then puppy status I use to make some pretty wild statements like, quote, "Mr. Oswald couldn't even beat Barney Fife in an armed wrestling match let alone kill somebody". Of course, to their credit, the savvy veterans, especially the LNs who I respect nevertheless, would reign me in and place me on a tight leash so to speak, resulting in more than a few PM's in my box "setting me straight". The late Gary Mack (RIP) would remind me often how wrong I was, how clueless I was, etc, may he rest in peace anyway.

I ended up leaving this forum in early January, 2015 to write a book on a non-related subject. Long story short, several years later when I attempted to rejoin here, Mr. Ford, you had already signed on, thus I resorted to using my middle initial. If at any time you feel a tinge of discomfort with the similarities in our names posting on here, just PM me and I'll respectfully leave once again. At this point, I pretty much think everyone here knows my position anyway & where I stand on the innocence of the framed party. Whatever you decide no harm, no foul, I have complete trust in the direction your exemplary research is headed.

Signing off here for now. Best wishes to all to remain safe, well and healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing. Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Remember, Mr. Ford, just PM me and I'll take the necessary action moving forward, remaining here in spite of the similarities in our names or leave once again. Stay sharp, Cheers M8.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.

WC counsel: Where did Oswald say he was when the President passed the building?
Captain Fritz: He said he was inside.

Good enough for Mr Chapman!  :D

'Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside.'

> Captain Fritz: Where were you when the President passed the building?
Mr Oswald: I was outside [SMIRK].

There, fixed it for ya.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 02, 2020, 11:44:53 PM
It's a simple matter of semantics, Oswald was well read and under the circumstances chose his words carefully.

Then I went outside to watch the parade. (Oswald here is using future tense to imply that he had no idea what was happening outside)

Or would Oswald use past tense to describe an action that he completed.

Then I went outside and watched the parade. (Oswald knew he couldn't say this because nobody could possibly see Oswald because he was in the building like he agreed to.

And again while answering the reporter we have Oswald who had no alibi not elaborating his precise location.

Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in that building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir.


Or if indeed Oswald was on the steps wouldn't Oswald use the same logical language "of being outside" that the other eyewitnesses who were on the steps used and thus would give Oswald a rock solid alibi?

Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in that building at the time?
Oswald: No, I was outside on the steps.


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 12:00:44 AM
I guess when Ford is on the steps to his house, he's IN his house. Then when he actually unlocks the door and steps forward, he's INSIDE the house.  ::)

This is the dimension of imagination, Welcome to the Twilight Zone!


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 12:50:36 AM
This is the dimension of imagination, Welcome to the Twilight Zone!


JohnM

IOW:


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:52:19 AM
It's a simple matter of semantics, Oswald was well read and under the circumstances chose his words carefully.

Then I went outside to watch the parade. (Oswald here is using future tense to imply that he had no idea what was happening outside)

Or would Oswald use past tense to describe an action that he completed.

Then I went outside and watched the parade. (Oswald knew he couldn't say this because nobody could possibly see Oswald because he was in the building like he agreed to.

 :D

Thank you so much, Mr Mytton, for doubling down on the hilariously silly claim you are making as to what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz:

'A cop came running into the room, stuck a gun in my belly and asked me if I worked there. Mr Truly told him I did and they went off running up the stairs. This happens to us employees most days around lunchtime, so I didn't think anything of it. Then I went downstairs, had lunch and went outside to watch the Presidential parade. Imagine my surprise when...'

You really are a riot!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:53:15 AM
Men of honour have a way of appeasing the prevalent winds of their day while simultaneously leaving discreet clues to challenge treason when they witness it. Courage & integrity like theirs doesn't grow on trees.

Sdebar: Should you venture back this way Mr. Ford, no need to respond to this sidebar addendum, but for clarification sake and, of course, in fairness to you & those reading along just wanted you to be aware that my initial interest into the JFK assassination came about in May, 2014. In those days, I was able to register a forum membership in my name without the use of my middle initial. Though I was a young puppy then, I dared to jump over in the deep end of the pool so to speak. My avatar then featured Charlton Heston upon a horse drawn chariot right out of the movie Ben Hur. In those days, given my then puppy status I use to make some pretty wild statements like, quote, "Mr. Oswald couldn't even beat Barney Fife in an armed wrestling match let alone kill somebody". Of course, to their credit, the savvy veterans, especially the LNs who I respect nevertheless, would reign me in and place me on a tight leash so to speak, resulting in more than a few PM's in my box "setting me straight". The late Gary Mack (RIP) would remind me often how wrong I was, how clueless I was, etc, may he rest in peace anyway.

I ended up leaving this forum in early January, 2015 to write a book on a non-related subject. Long story short, several years later when I attempted to rejoin here, Mr. Ford, you had already signed on, thus I resorted to using my middle initial. If at any time you feel a tinge of discomfort with the similarities in our names posting on here, just PM me and I'll respectfully leave once again. At this point, I pretty much think everyone here knows my position anyway & where I stand on the innocence of the framed party. Whatever you decide no harm, no foul, I have complete trust in the direction your exemplary research is headed.

Signing off here for now. Best wishes to all to remain safe, well and healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing. Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Remember, Mr. Ford, just PM me and I'll take the necessary action moving forward, remaining here in spite of the similarities in our names or leave once again. Stay sharp, Cheers M8.

Under NO circumstances should you even consider leaving, my friend!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 12:58:46 AM
IOW:


 Thumb1:

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright, yeah



JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 05:35:21 AM
Men of honour have a way of appeasing the prevalent winds of their day while simultaneously leaving discreet clues to challenge treason when they witness it. Courage & integrity like theirs doesn't grow on trees.

Sdebar: Should you venture back this way Mr. Ford, no need to respond to this sidebar addendum, but for clarification sake and, of course, in fairness to you & those reading along just wanted you to be aware that my initial interest into the JFK assassination came about in May, 2014. In those days, I was able to register a forum membership in my name without the use of my middle initial. Though I was a young puppy then, I dared to jump over in the deep end of the pool so to speak. My avatar then featured Charlton Heston upon a horse drawn chariot right out of the movie Ben Hur. In those days, given my then puppy status I use to make some pretty wild statements like, quote, "Mr. Oswald couldn't even beat Barney Fife in an armed wrestling match let alone kill somebody". Of course, to their credit, the savvy veterans, especially the LNs who I respect nevertheless, would reign me in and place me on a tight leash so to speak, resulting in more than a few PM's in my box "setting me straight". The late Gary Mack (RIP) would remind me often how wrong I was, how clueless I was, etc, may he rest in peace anyway.

I ended up leaving this forum in early January, 2015 to write a book on a non-related subject. Long story short, several years later when I attempted to rejoin here, Mr. Ford, you had already signed on, thus I resorted to using my middle initial. If at any time you feel a tinge of discomfort with the similarities in our names posting on here, just PM me and I'll respectfully leave once again. At this point, I pretty much think everyone here knows my position anyway & where I stand on the innocence of the framed party. Whatever you decide no harm, no foul, I have complete trust in the direction your exemplary research is headed.

Signing off here for now. Best wishes to all to remain safe, well and healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing. Back next weekend G-d willing to reengage. Remember, Mr. Ford, just PM me and I'll take the necessary action moving forward, remaining here in spite of the similarities in our names or leave once again. Stay sharp, Cheers M8.

'my initial interest into the JFK assassination'
> my initial interest IN the JFK assassination

There. Fixed it for ya. And proved you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And get another clue:
When one is behind the TSBD glass doors, one is indoors
When one is outside the glass doors, one is outdoors
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 05:53:27 AM
:D

Poor Mr Mytton, your only resort is to trot out your old long-refuted Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Chestnut!

Mr Oswald never said he was inside the building. He answered in the affirmative when asked if he was 'in' the building. Every time you continue to put the word 'inside' in Mr Oswald's mouth, we see your shameless dishonesty! Thumb1:

Now! Agent Hosty states clearly that Mr Oswald stated clearly that he 'went outside to watch P. parade'. Apart from the roof, there is literally only one place that can be said to be both in the Texas School Book Despository (i.e. part of the building, not part of the world beyond it) and outside... Have you guessed it yet, Mr Mytton?

That's right! The enclosed front entranceway!

That's where Mr Oswald said he was, and the reason he said that was where he was was that that was where he in fact was. And! The reason Captain Fritz and his crooked pals pretended Mr Oswald said he was somewhere other than where he actually said he was..... was that they wanted to frame him for the shooting. And you're still falling for the scam, and devoting yourself to making others fall for it too!

The Hosty note destroys you, Mr Mytton! it's why you tried to argue that Mr Oswald only said he went out to watch the rest of the parade------i.e. the bits that came after JFK! (I am not making this up, folks, it's what poor Mr Mytton actually said!)

(https://i.imgur.com/RrTedsl.jpg)

 :D

As for why Mr Oswald didn't scream his assassination-time location at the press, this too has been addressed-----------multiple times! But you, being a propagandist, pretend you never notice.

So! Once more for the benefit of He Who is Too Blind to See and Too Deaf to Hear:

Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps. Under pressure to pin the shooting on his suspect, and not one to let trivial questions of basic justice get in the way, all he has to do is tell Mr Oswald: 'Look son, we know you didn't fire the actual shots. But we have you tied to the rifle. And that's what we're charging you with.'

Anyhoo, Mr Mytton, we look forward to seeing you pop up again in a few months with the same old easily-disposable garbage!

 Thumb1:

'Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps'
> Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald told him he was on the front steps

There. Fixed it for ya.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 06:03:03 AM
Thumb1:

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright, yeah



JohnM

I wonder if either of these 'Model T' Fords are related to Gerald Ford?
You know, the one who kept falling down the stairs.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2020, 07:54:51 AM
:D

No, Mr Mytton, he was stating that he went outside to watch the motorcade. Which is what he did---------which is why Captain Fritz and his pals hid his statement from the world!

On your rather desperate reading, Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz: 'A cop came running into the room, stuck a gun in my belly and asked me if I worked there. Mr Truly told him I did and they went off running up the stairs. This happens to us employees most days around lunchtime, so I didn't think anything of it. Then I went downstairs, had lunch and went outside to watch the Presidential parade. Imagine my surprise when...'

Great theory you got there, Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:

What's gotta hurt, Mr Mytton, is that you can't for the life of you find a way to rebut the simple fact that there is only one place that can be said to be both 'in the building' and 'outside': the front entranceway!

Of course, had the reporter asked Mr Oswald, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', it's likely Mr Oswald would have answered a little more expansively along the lines, 'Well, sir, I was on the front steps of the building.' A pity that's not how it played out? Sure. But now----------thanks to the Hosty draft report that has broken your heart----------we know exactly where Mr Oswald claimed to have been. So... you lose------again!   Thumb1:

Oswwald states he was "upstairs" and then encounters Baker and Trully as he descends to the 2nd floor.

There is a huge problem with Oswald's statements. Actually he admits he was upstairs during the assassination. Not only that but the only person in the entire TSBD oblivious to the sound of gunfire. A Marine who doesn't know the sound of gunfire.

Oswald can't be both outside on the first floor and then upstairs returning to the 2nd floor when the commotion starts. Either way his statements see to revolve around the 2nd floor. On one story is he gets a soda on the second floor and then goes downstairs to eat lunch and he then goes outside to watch the parade. In another story he is upstairs unaware of the assassination and encountering Baker and Truly on the 2nd floor as he is coming down.

LHO:   "... After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . ."

Oswald also states that he was outside:

Question What time did you go to lunch?
Oswald   At noon.
Question Where did you go for lunch?
Oswald    I went to the 2nd floor to get a coke then went back to the 1st floor to eat my lunch.
Question Then what happened?
Oswald    I then went outside to watch the Presidents Parade.

Apparently LHO could not tell the same story twice. He might have not been sure if the secretaries on the 4th floor had actually seen him as he went down the stairs.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 08:12:33 AM
'my initial interest into the JFK assassination'
> my initial interest IN the JFK assassination

There. Fixed it for ya. And proved you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And get another clue:
When one is behind the TSBD glass doors, one is indoors
When one is outside the glass doors, one is outdoors

you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And the thought never crossed your mind that Oswald may have had the same struggle?

You are very good at destroying your own argument, aren't you?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And the thought never crossed your mind that Oswald may have had the same struggle?

You are very good at destroying your own argument, aren't you?
There is no struggle.
Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out' (I really can't believe I'm having to do this). Nobody is confused as to whether they are in or out.
The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination and the Prayer Man crew cannot accept that so they come up with this "is it 'in' or 'inside' insanity (or is that insideanity). That's fair enough, people have invested a lot of time and effort into believing this, "years of extensive research" I heard somewhere. I know hardly anything about this particular aspect of things as it never crossed my mind as a possibility for a number of reasons so I'd like to ask a couple of pretty straight-forward questions to those 'superfans' of this particular model of events:
1) What is the evidence Prayer Man is a man?
2) How many people are stood on the steps at the time of the assassination?
Two simple questions to start my education regarding the world of Prayer Man.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 10:24:23 AM
There is no struggle.
Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out' (I really can't believe I'm having to do this). Nobody is confused as to whether they are in or out.
The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination and the Prayer Man crew cannot accept that so they come up with this "is it 'in' or 'inside' insanity (or is that insideanity). That's fair enough, people have invested a lot of time and effort into believing this, "years of extensive research" I heard somewhere. I know hardly anything about this particular aspect of things as it never crossed my mind as a possibility for a number of reasons so I'd like to ask a couple of pretty straight-forward questions to those 'superfans' of this particular model of events:
1) What is the evidence Prayer Man is a man?
2) How many people are stood on the steps at the time of the assassination?
Two simple questions to start my education regarding the world of Prayer Man.

Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out'

You get no debate from me. The problem that you are ignoring is that people don't always express themselves 100% correctly and completely. You are reading way too much into a fleeting comment made in a moment of chaos.

The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination


Really? I would like to see that actual video, because it isn't in the clips that were posted earlier.

In one of the clips Oswald says "I work in that building" and then replies to a reporter asking "Were you in the building at the time" by saying "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir".

To construe from this exchange that Oswald confirmed he was in the building at the time of the assassination is reaching too far

And before you go there; no I am not a member of the prayer-man crew. For me the entire prayer-man discussion ends with the conclusion that the blurred pictures show a shape of what seems to be a person but as the pictures are too poor in quality it can not be determined who that person is.

This entire discussion about a blurred image in a poor quality picture and a personal interpretation of a few words uttered by Oswald seems somewhat superfluous to me as neither matter will likely ever be resolved.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:35:31 PM
'Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald was on the front steps'
> Captain Fritz knows very early on that Mr Oswald told him he was on the front steps

There. Fixed it for ya.

So we agree that Mr Oswald did indeed tell Captain Fritz he was on the front steps when JFK passed the building. Excellent!  Thumb1:

Therefore we also agree that your hero Captain Fritz and his pals lied about this! Excellenter!  Thumb1: Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:37:46 PM
Oswwald states he was "upstairs" and then encounters Baker and Trully as he descends to the 2nd floor.

Where are you getting this nonsense claim from, Mr Nessan? Source please!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:44:13 PM
There is no struggle.
Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out' (I really can't believe I'm having to do this). Nobody is confused as to whether they are in or out.

And Mr Oswald was not confused either----------that's why he told Captain Fritz that he went outside to watch P. parade. If the reporter had asked him, 'Where were you when the shooting happened?', he would have said 'Out on the front steps' or 'Front entrance of the building'. If the reporter had asked him, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', he would have said, 'Well, sir, I was on the building's front steps.'

Your explanation for the Hosty draft report seems to be that Agent Hosty was on hallucinogens at the time of Mr Oswald's first interrogation. Or that a trained FBI agent would completely misunderstand the suspect's answer to the single most crucial question of the case. Dream on!

Give us a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Go on, it should be easy!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 12:45:32 PM
Thumb1:

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright, yeah



JohnM

And Mr Mytton folds again. Happens every time!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 01:42:24 PM
And Mr Mytton folds again. Happens every time!  :D

Besides the other Alan Ford, LOL!, you have had absolutely no support whatsoever, so carry on champ.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 02:18:03 PM
Besides the other Alan Ford, LOL!, you have had absolutely no support whatsoever, so carry on champ.

JohnM

you have had absolutely no support whatsoever

What support have you had, "John"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 03:00:15 PM
you have no clue about upon which occasion to use either of the two. Like your struggles with in & inside.

And the thought never crossed your mind that Oswald may have had the same struggle?

You are very good at destroying your own argument, aren't you?

Huh?

Tell us what I'm arguing about and with whom. Go ahead..
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2020, 03:02:09 PM
Where are you getting this nonsense claim from, Mr Nessan? Source please!  Thumb1:

The problem with lying is remembering the other lies. Surprising he would place himself above the 2nd floor.

Never even heard the shooting. The rifle would have been right by his ear, you would think he would have heard it.


https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963   Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office

          "After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. [Oswald was the only member in New Orleans.] . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. [Ruth Paine later stated she had marked Lee's map.] . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2020, 05:23:35 PM
So we agree that Mr Oswald did indeed tell Captain Fritz he was on the front steps when JFK passed the building. Excellent!  Thumb1:

Therefore we also agree that your hero Captain Fritz and his pals lied about this! Excellenter!  Thumb1: Thumb1:

Nope. Oswald told Fritz he went outside to watch the parade. I used your translation verbatim. And Fritz did not 'know' whether of not Oswald was on the steps, or even had gone outside to watch the parade. He merely wrote down what Oswald said. And I don't see any stone tablets attesting to Oswald's veracity.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 03, 2020, 07:19:46 PM
Your hero said he was in the lunchroom (when the motorcade passed by)
But I'd say he had somewhat loftier ambitions that day.

Who cares what you'd say?  Once you resort to "hero" rhetoric, you've already lost.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 03, 2020, 07:26:27 PM
https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

Uh, yeah.  You realize those are all made-up quotes, right?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 07:54:45 PM

The problem here is that we have video evidence of Oswald confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination


Really? I would like to see that actual video, because it isn't in the clips that were posted earlier.

In one of the clips Oswald says "I work in that building" and then replies to a reporter asking "Were you in the building at the time" by saying "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir".

To construe from this exchange that Oswald confirmed he was in the building at the time of the assassination is reaching too far


I agree that people aren't always 100% correct in what they say but I disagree that i'm reaching too far interpreting Oswald's words as referring to the time of the assassination. The exchange in the video clip goes like this:

Reporter - Did you kill the President?
Oswald - No sir, I didn't. People keep asking me about that.
Reporter - Did you shoot the President?
Oswald - I work in that building
Reporter - Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald - Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

The key phrase is 'at the time'. At what time? You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed. His previous questions make it abundantly clear he is asking whether Oswald was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed (assassinated). Oswald understands the question and what is meant by it and he answers in the affirmative twice ('Naturally' and yes sir')
I'd say that any other interpretation of this exchange was reaching too far.
Oswald is confirming he was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed.
Do you have an alternative interpretation?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 07:57:36 PM
And Mr Oswald was not confused either----------that's why he told Captain Fritz that he went outside to watch P. parade. If the reporter had asked him, 'Where were you when the shooting happened?', he would have said 'Out on the front steps' or 'Front entrance of the building'. If the reporter had asked him, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', he would have said, 'Well, sir, I was on the building's front steps.'

Your explanation for the Hosty draft report seems to be that Agent Hosty was on hallucinogens at the time of Mr Oswald's first interrogation. Or that a trained FBI agent would completely misunderstand the suspect's answer to the single most crucial question of the case. Dream on!

Give us a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Go on, it should be easy!  Thumb1:
What is the evidence that Prayer Man is a man?
How many people on the steps at the time of the shooting?

You must surely know the answer to the second question as so much research has been done specifically about this (I assume)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 08:18:46 PM
I agree that people aren't always 100% correct in what they say but I disagree that i'm reaching too far interpreting Oswald's words as referring to the time of the assassination. The exchange in the video clip goes like this:

Reporter - Did you kill the President?
Oswald - No sir, I didn't. People keep asking me about that.
Reporter - Did you shoot the President?
Oswald - I work in that building
Reporter - Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald - Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

The key phrase is 'at the time'. At what time? You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed. His previous questions make it abundantly clear he is asking whether Oswald was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed (assassinated). Oswald understands the question and what is meant by it and he answers in the affirmative twice ('Naturally' and yes sir')
I'd say that any other interpretation of this exchange was reaching too far.
Oswald is confirming he was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed.
Do you have an alternative interpretation?

You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed.

Yes, I do. "At the time" can just as easily be interpeted as "where you there when the President was shot". Oswald had already said he worked in the building so his subsequent reply relates to that. If you say you work in a building and I ask you if you were there when the President was shot, you would also say something like "Of course, as I work there, I was there" or as Oswald answered; "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir"

To narrow it down to only one explanation when others are also possible is reaching too far.... even more so when this matter can not be resolved beyond speculation and opinion.

I have spent a great deal of my profesional life obtaining information from people and you wouldn't believe just how difficult it sometimes is for people to say exactly what they mean or to keep their story straight or to recall all the details at once.

This was a very short conversation and Oswald had hardly any time to consider the possible ramifications of his answer or even provide a more detailed answer.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on August 03, 2020, 08:37:39 PM
I agree that people aren't always 100% correct in what they say but I disagree that i'm reaching too far interpreting Oswald's words as referring to the time of the assassination. The exchange in the video clip goes like this:

Reporter - Did you kill the President?
Oswald - No sir, I didn't. People keep asking me about that.
Reporter - Did you shoot the President?
Oswald - I work in that building
Reporter - Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald - Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

The key phrase is 'at the time'. At what time? You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed. His previous questions make it abundantly clear he is asking whether Oswald was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed (assassinated). Oswald understands the question and what is meant by it and he answers in the affirmative twice ('Naturally' and yes sir')
I'd say that any other interpretation of this exchange was reaching too far.
Oswald is confirming he was in the building at the time the President was shot and killed.
Do you have an alternative interpretation?
Mr O'meara:
Oswald is being peppered with questions simultaneously by the large crowd of reporters, which may explain the odd responses.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 08:40:27 PM
You really think it's reaching too far to conclude the reporter is referring to the time the President was shot and killed.

Yes, I do. "At the time" can just as easily be interpeted as "where you there when the President was shot". Oswald had already said he worked in the building so his subsequent reply relates to that. If you say you work in a building and I ask you if you were there when the President was shot, you would also say something like "Of course, as I work there, I was there" or as Oswald answered; "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir"

To narrow it down to only one explanation when others are also possible is reaching too far.... even more so when this matter can not be resolved beyond speculation and opinion.

I have spent a great deal of my profesional life obtaining information from people and you wouldn't believe just how difficult it sometimes is for people to say exactly what they mean or to keep their story straight or to recall all the details at once.

This was a very short conversation and Oswald had hardly any time to consider the possible ramifications of his answer or even provide a more detailed answer.
So this is your alternative explanation!
"At the time" can easily be interpreted as "Around the time"
"Specific" can easily be interpreted as "vague"
Brilliant stuff.
You agree at least that 'the time' being referred to is the assassination, you just think that "At the time of the assassination" is open to interpretation.
I agree. Any phrase can be interpreted any way you want , from common sense to utter nonsense. I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 08:46:45 PM
Mr O'meara:
Oswald is being peppered with questions simultaneously by the large crowd of reporters, which may explain the odd responses.

"Were you in the building at the time?"

"Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

What's odd about this?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 03, 2020, 09:34:29 PM
So this is your alternative explanation!
"At the time" can easily be interpreted as "Around the time"
"Specific" can easily be interpreted as "vague"
Brilliant stuff.
You agree at least that 'the time' being referred to is the assassination, you just think that "At the time of the assassination" is open to interpretation.
I agree. Any phrase can be interpreted any way you want , from common sense to utter nonsense. I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.

So this is your alternative explanation!

No... I gave you no alternative explanation. I merely pointed out that your explanation was flawed.

I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.

I agree that that's what the reporter likely intended, but that isn't the issue... It's how Oswald understood the question.

As Oswald had already denied killing Kennedy, one can argue that he doesn't even know when exactly the President was killed and where exactly he was, so he goes with; "Yes I work in the building, so I was there"....

It's easy enough to understand. One of the biggest problems is that people place way too much value on the word choice of a witness, be it in testimony, in affidavit or in interviews.

There is a reason why lawyers always tell their clients (even the innocent ones) not to say anything to the police. The reason is, that once a statement is taken down it starts a life of it's own and very often what is said will be used against you later simply because you didn't say it completely or 100% accurate. In many case, when the police take a statement, you tell an officer what happened, that officer takes from that what he thinks he needs for a statement of possibly one or two A4 sheets, which he then puts in front of you to sign. Once you've signed it, you're stuck with it.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 03, 2020, 10:03:02 PM
So this is your alternative explanation!

No... I gave you no alternative explanation. I merely pointed out that your explanation was flawed.

I think you will agree though, that on the balance of probabilities, the chance the reporter is asking specifically about the time of the assassination to get an idea of where Oswald was when the event itself actually happened, is greater than any other interpretation.

I agree that that's what the reporter likely intended, but that isn't the issue... It's how Oswald understood the question.

As Oswald had already denied killing Kennedy, one can argue that he doesn't even know when exactly the President was killed and where exactly he was, so he goes with; "Yes I work in the building, so I was there"....

It's easy enough to understand. One of the biggest problems is that people place way too much value on the word choice of a witness, be it in testimony, in affidavit or in interviews.

There is a reason why lawyers always tell their clients (even the innocent ones) not to say anything to the police. The reason is, that once a statement is taken down it starts a life on it's own and very often what is said will be used against you later simply because you didn't say it completely or 100% accurate. In many case, when the police take a statement, you tell an officer what happened, that officer takes from that what he thinks he needs for a statement of possibly one or two A4 sheets, which he then puts in front of you to sign. Once you've signed it, you're stuck with it.
But isn't it reasonable to assume that by confirming he was in the building when the assassination occurred he knew exactly when it had occurred! And knew he was in the building when it happened.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:23:37 PM
The problem with lying is remembering the other lies. Surprising he would place himself above the 2nd floor.

Never even heard the shooting. The rifle would have been right by his ear, you would think he would have heard it.


https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963   Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office

          "After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. [Oswald was the only member in New Orleans.] . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. [Ruth Paine later stated she had marked Lee's map.] . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit."

 :D

That's not an actual source, Mr Nessan---------do your homework before spouting nonsense claims!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:24:55 PM
Nope. Oswald told Fritz he went outside to watch the parade.

Yes, and Captain Fritz pretended he hadn't said anything of the sort.

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr Chapman?  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:32:37 PM
What is the evidence that Prayer Man is a man?

Start with what looks exceedingly like a receding hairline. How many women have one of those?

Quote
How many people on the steps at the time of the shooting?

You must surely know the answer to the second question as so much research has been done specifically about this (I assume)

1. Mr Frazier
2. Mr Shelley
3. Mr Lovelady
4. Ms Stanton
5. Ms Sanders
6. Ms Reese
7. Ms McCully
8. Mr Molina
9. Mr Williams
10. Ms Davis
11. Mr Lewis (? probably inside the front door)
12. Ms Dean
13. Mr Oswald

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2020, 10:41:54 PM
Mr O'meara:
Oswald is being peppered with questions simultaneously by the large crowd of reporters, which may explain the odd responses.

This! Mr Oswald is rather snippily confirming that no, he was not anywhere other than at the Texas School Book Depository, his goddam place of work, at the time. The Hosty draft report tells us what his more detailed and expansive answer would have been if he had been asked, 'Where exactly were you when the President was shot?' And had the reporter asked, 'Were you inside the building at the time?', he would of course have given a more specific answer too-------and that exchange would probably never have been broadcast on TV again either.

Oh, how dearly Team Keep LHO Away from that Front Entrance must wish the question Mr Oswald says yes to had contained the word 'inside'!  :D

The efforts to date of Team Keep LHO Away From that Front Entrance to explain away the clear information revealed in the Hosty draft report have been mirth-inducingly pathetic!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 03, 2020, 11:19:55 PM
you have had absolutely no support whatsoever

What support have you had, "John"?

My argument with Ford where I said the steps are outside and the other side of the door is inside, was supported by you. Oops!

Nobody in their right mind, stood on the steps in the full glare of the sun would consider themselves "in the building" (should that be inside their right mind). There is a door right there, on one side is 'in' on the other is'out'

You get no debate from me.


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 04, 2020, 05:06:49 AM
My argument with Ford where I said the steps are outside and the other side of the door is inside, was supported by you. Oops!

JohnM

Are you so desperate that you need to misrepresent what I said?

My unwillingness to debate an issue doesn't mean that you are correct.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 04, 2020, 05:11:13 AM
But isn't it reasonable to assume that by confirming he was in the building when the assassination occurred he knew exactly when it had occurred! And knew he was in the building when it happened.

An assumption is usually made with bias. With that in mind, an assumption is never really reasonable.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 04, 2020, 05:29:15 AM
Are you so desperate that you need to misrepresent what I said?

My unwillingness to debate an issue doesn't mean that you are correct.

 :D

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 04, 2020, 05:30:15 AM
Who cares what you'd say?  Once you resort to "hero" rhetoric, you've already lost.

You care what I say.
Otherwise you wouldn't respond to what I say.
And what did I lose, exactly?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 04, 2020, 04:38:24 PM
:D

That's not an actual source, Mr Nessan---------do your homework before spouting nonsense claims!

No I don't think so and neither does Insp. Holmes, LHO places himself above the 2nd floor during the shooting and comes down where he encounters Trully and Baker, Once again a Marine seems to have no knowledge of shots being fired. Seriously, "commotion?" Oswald can't seem to coordinate his own lies. LHO attempts to place the encounter with Baker and Trully on a different floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 04, 2020, 04:50:43 PM
Wait, how does going downstairs to the front door place him above the second floor?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2020, 09:31:25 PM
No I don't think so {~snip snip!~}

Mr Nessan, I'll take this as your way of admitting you goofed up big-time!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2020, 09:42:10 PM
The problem with lying is that there's always a danger you'll trip yourself up in an unguarded moment.........

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement (...)


Oh dear, Captain Fritz... And you've done so well up to now keeping a lid on the fact that Mr Oswald told you he "went outside to watch the P. parade"!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 04, 2020, 09:45:30 PM
Start with what looks exceedingly like a receding hairline. How many women have one of those?

1. Mr Frazier
2. Mr Shelley
3. Mr Lovelady
4. Ms Stanton
5. Ms Sanders
6. Ms Reese
7. Ms McCully
8. Mr Molina
9. Mr Williams
10. Ms Davis
11. Mr Lewis (? probably inside the front door)
12. Ms Dean
13. Mr Oswald

 Thumb1:

Oswald combed his hair over to the left exposing his receding hair on the right. You're saying the Shadow Person is receding on the left.
Oh dear, yet another nail in Prayer Man's coffin  Thumb1:

Don't forget Carl Edward Jones
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2020, 11:54:03 PM
Oswald combed his hair over to the left exposing his receding hair on the right. You're saying the Shadow Person is receding on the left.
Oh dear, yet another nail in Prayer Man's coffin  Thumb1:

Weak, Mr O'Meara! Mr Oswald's hair receded on both sides. If your argument now rests on the assumption that Mr Oswald stood in front of a mirror with a comb just before going outside to watch the P. parade, then you've got nothing.

Quote
Don't forget Carl Edward Jones

Yes indeed, thank you-------Mr Jones comes in at #14, just after Mr Oswald!

Now! You asked for the list. What are you going to do with it?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 04, 2020, 11:56:40 PM
Weak, Mr O'Meara! Mr Oswald's hair receded on both sides. If your argument now rests on the assumption that Mr Oswald stood in front of a mirror with a comb just before going outside to watch the P. parade, then you've got nothing.

Yes indeed, thank you-------Mr Jones comes in at #14, just after Mr Oswald!

Now! You asked for the list. What are you going to do with it?

 Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL0V2qwM/Oswald-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
D'oh  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 12:08:03 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL0V2qwM/Oswald-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
D'oh  8)

I can save you some time and trouble, Mr O'Meara, by telling you where this line of inquiry will lead:

Either! Prayer Man is Mr Oswald, a quiet nondescript employee amongst a bunch of other employees, who told Captain Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. parade" and naturally enought went unnoticed by most of his fellow employees in the short time he was out there (though not unnoticed by Officer Baker, Mr Truly and Mr Lovelady)

Or! Prayer Man is a non-employee of the Depository alone amongst a bunch of employees, who went weirdly unnoticed by every single one of them.

Seems to me option 'Or' is a much bigger stretch than option 'Either'! 

Alternatively----------can you find another, hitherto unmentioned Depository employee to put out on those steps in the Prayer Man spot?

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 05, 2020, 12:25:46 AM
I can save you some time and trouble, Mr O'Meara, by telling you where this line of inquiry will lead:

Either! Prayer Man is Mr Oswald, a quiet nondescript employee amongst a bunch of other employees, who told Captain Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. parade" and naturally enought went unnoticed by most of his fellow employees in the short time he was out there (though not unnoticed by Officer Baker, Mr Truly and Mr Lovelady)

Or! Prayer Man is a non-employee of the Depository alone amongst a bunch of employees, who went weirdly unnoticed by every single one of them.

Seems to me option 'Or' is a much bigger stretch than option 'Either'! 
 

Alternatively----------can you find another, hitherto unmentioned Depository employee to put out on those steps in the Prayer Man spot?

Thumb1:
Not sure how any of this deals with the fact the single piece of "evidence" you put forward for "Prayer Man" being a man has been blown out of the water.
Have you got anything else? 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
Not sure how any of this deals with the fact the single piece of "evidence" you put forward for "Prayer Man" being a man has been blown out of the water.
Have you got anything else? 8)

You don't think Mr Oswald's hair was receding on both sides? You're still running with this silly claim as a way of distracting from the fact that you still haven't been able to suggest a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Ho hum...

(https://i.imgur.com/1uKYIl3.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CUz6y6K.jpg)

Looks like your knock-down argument has been knocked down!  Thumb1:

So! Quit deflecting, Mr O'Meara, and tell us who you think Prayer Man might be.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 05, 2020, 11:28:37 AM
You don't think Mr Oswald's hair was receding on both sides? You're still running with this silly claim as a way of distracting from the fact that you still haven't been able to suggest a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Ho hum...

(https://i.imgur.com/1uKYIl3.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CUz6y6K.jpg)

Looks like your knock-down argument has been knocked down!  Thumb1:

So! Quit deflecting, Mr O'Meara, and tell us who you think Prayer Man might be.
At the moment I don't have anyone credible. But then again, neither do you!
This old dear is more credible than Oswald - note the hairline, the exposed arms, the classic Prayer Man pose and she's on the top step!  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y1nknsQ/Prayer-Woman-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady lied when he said he never saw Oswald!!


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 05, 2020, 02:56:59 PM
Mr Nessan, I'll take this as your way of admitting you goofed up big-time!  Thumb1:

Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

LHO even trys to change the location of where Baker and Trully encounter him.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 05, 2020, 03:10:25 PM
Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

LHO even trys to change the location of where Baker and Trully encounter him.

Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination.

No it doesn't

He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Down from the top floors? Where does he say that? Seems more like something you want to read into a comment made by a third party.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Don't attribute words, some third party used, as verbatim being Oswald's! You have no way of knowing what Oswald really said and which exact words he used.

But if you insist in doing that anyway, you surely also must accept that Oswald was stopped by a police officer "just before I got to the front door"? So, no lunchroom encounter, right?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 04:45:09 PM
Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

Oswald:  , "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Nope, you goofed and aren't man enough to admit that you haven't the first idea about finding real sources for your claims. Next you'll be quoting a snippet of dialogue from JFK as evidence!  :D

Quote
LHO even trys to change the location of where Baker and Trully encounter him.

Except he hasn't changed a thing-----------from the very first interrogation, he is putting himself at the front entrance for the time of the shooting (and therefore also for Officer Baker's dash into that front entrance, which is what Mr Holmes picked up). Furthermore! The DPD were telling everybody on 11/22 that Mr Oswald encountered a cop and Mr Truly at-------------you guessed it!-------------the front entrance immediately after the shooting.

In short: Mr Oswald's story remained consistent, the 'investigating' authorities' story kept changing. The only changes to Mr Oswald's story were made by said 'investigating' authorities. The coming to light of the Hosty draft report proves that beyond doubt!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 04:48:30 PM
At the moment I don't have anyone credible. But then again, neither do you!
This old dear is more credible than Oswald - note the hairline, the exposed arms, the classic Prayer Man pose and she's on the top step!  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y1nknsQ/Prayer-Woman-2.gif)

Lovelady lied when he said he never saw Oswald!!

Just a second, Mr O'Meara! Are you actually claiming that the hairline in the image of Mr Oswald I posted is inconsistent with the hairline of Prayer Man? Are you really that blind? Or that desperate to keep Mr Oswald off those steps?

You'll need to post your image of your Prayer Man Alternative Candidate again, by the way, as it's not showing up!  Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 05, 2020, 05:08:21 PM
Great, you actually do understand what Holmes stated in his testimony. Absolutely ends the speculation about LHO's whereabouts during the assassination. He was descending from the top floors to see about the "commotion", and  obviously pretends he never heard a thing.

When did Holmes say "from the top floors"?

Keep in mind that you are relying on specific details from the man who came up with this gem:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.  He mentioned something about a coke."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 05:14:42 PM
When did Holmes say "from the top floors"?

Keep in mind that you are relying on specific details from the man who came up with this gem:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.  He mentioned something about a coke."

I hardly need to tell you this, Mr Iacoletti, but you shouldn't expect a coherent response from Mr Nessan.

Mr Holmes got things a little garbled, but he is crystal clear on one thing: Mr Oswald said the encounter with the cop took place at the front entrance, first floor. Which is exactly where the DPD were telling everybody on 11/22 it had happened. Despite never having even been in the Depository, Mr Holmes is able to describe the double doors/vestibule arrangement------because he heard Mr Oswald explain it (probably for the umpteenth time) to Captain Fritz.

The reason Mr Oswald mentioned a coke was that he had one in his hand at the time of the encounter. The reason he mentioned the coke machine on two was that he was explaining where he had gotten the coke from. The reason he mentioned coming downstairs was that he was describing his actions subsequent to his purchase of the coke on two.

The Hosty draft report confirms that this had been Mr Oswald's claim all along.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2020, 05:34:26 PM
Friends, I invite you to consider the part of Officer Marion Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit which I have underlined-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/9uENdd7.jpg)

So! As Officer Baker was entering the front door, he saw several people standing around and spoke to them, asking for directions to the stairs.

Who were these people Officer Baker asked for help? And how on earth could both Mr Frazier and Mr Molina not have seen and heard him at this moment? I mean, they were standing right there by the door!

Answer: Mr Oswald was one of those people. In fact, he was the person Officer Baker focused on (perhaps even grabbing him by the arm with understandable urgency). Accordingly, everyone had to banish the exchange from their memory afterwards. For it gave Mr Oswald his alibi. Thankfully, however, before the need to NOT have seen the exchange had kicked in, Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman all about it!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 06, 2020, 11:47:23 PM
So! Officer Baker, as he's at the front door of the building, asks a bunch of folks standing there where the stairs are. Officer Baker has this event fresh in his memory as he is giving his affidavit. And yet... nobody else will seem to remember having heard, seen or been co-participants in this event. How peculiar!  :D

Well, I tell a lie... For Mr Oswald remembered that selfsame event, and backed Officer Baker's story up 100% by telling Captain Fritz all about it. We know this thanks to Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes' WC testimony.

Now! There's an interesting nuance to the answer Postal Inspector Holmes gives to Mr Belin's question, "By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?":

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


Either in the vestibule (i.e. front lobby) or approaching the door to the vestibule. Hmmm...

This puts the encounter either
................inside---------i.e. in the vestibule, Officer Baker having already gone through the front door
or
................still outside-------------i.e. at the front door leading to the vestibule. (After all, 'approaching the door to the vestibule' can only mean outside: if you're already inside, then the glass door is the door to the front steps, not the door to the vestibule!)

Mr Oswald had indeed "come out to this front part" (in order "to watch P. parade", of course), and it would seem from what Mr Holmes is saying that Mr Oswald put the encounter with the cop at the front door but still outside.

This tallies with the information put out (albeit with an anti-LHO spin) by DPD later that day: he was stopped at the front door as he was trying to leave. This too was Mr Lovelady's (erroneous) impression when he turned around and saw the cop speaking with Mr Oswald--------he hadn't noticed Mr Oswald's presence on the steps at the time of the shooting, and so thought Mr Oswald had only just arrived out front.

Officer Baker's same-day affidavit gives us the true character of the encounter: he wasn't in the least bit suspicious of Mr Oswald, he was merely asking Mr Oswald (A.K.A. Prayer Man, probably) where the nearest stairs were. And then Mr Truly stepped up... and the rest is history (or was history for a few hours before the authorities saw fit to replace the real story with a fictional one about a lunchroom!)...

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 12:13:21 AM
Mr. Weidmann certainly brings a keen sense of discernment to the table.  It certainly compliments the abundance already evident here in this thread with the invaluable contributions of Mr. Ford and Mr. Iacoletti as well. 

That said, given Mr. Hosty's revealing revelation, where the wrongly accused places himself outside instead of inside the building, let alone lurking six stories up in a *staged sniper's nest, it's becoming much clearer with the passage of time that Prayer Man is indeed none other than the wrongly accused.

Paraphrasing Mr. Ford (<-----Stay Classy btw), "If it wasn't Mr. Oswald it would be easy to place a credible candidate in his position". Seven (7) years later, No one has managed to secure Prayer Man's position with a credible-candidate to remove, irrefutably, any chance that he is indeed the wrongly accused. That's very telling. Very telling.

Add Mr. Hosty's revealing revelation moves the wrongly accused into Prayer's Man specific location even more so, because we know he didn't stand in anyone else's specific position given their respective Commission Exhibit 1381 Statements. Moreover, none of them claimed to be standing in Prayer's Man specific position either. Lest we forget, in all of the CE 1381 statements, no one saw any strangers either.

*Sidebar: Mr. Neesan (sp, my apologies if misspelled, will rectify with an Edit if so), but suffice it to say everything they, those charged with framing an innocent party, said about what the wrongly accused said and/or did that afternoon only serves a hastily contrived script.  I don't have time this evening to share the many inconsistencies and outright lies mired in horse manure stench relative to their "evidence" to frame the wrongly accused, but will leave you some more in depth details tomorrow the good Lord willing. Suffice it to say the two key witnesses starring in the hastily contrived script were not good liars.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 08, 2020, 07:04:38 AM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 04:01:52 PM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred

Appreciate the informative, insightful & interesting video share, Mr. Clements, Thank You for sharing this gem. An astute presentation by legal-counsel as well.

The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
Mr. Nessan,

First, my apologies for the initial spelling of your name in my previous post (respecting it prompted me to do some due-diligence and get it correct before addressing you here in that follow up post I promised yesterday).

Please take the time to actually watch & listen to Mr. Dwyer's astute presentation to gain some invaluable insights into this case. That said, here are a few things to address with an open mind as well:

*Only one witness, just one, places Roy Truly near the elevator & stairs on the first-floor that afternoon during the aftermath of the assassination. Unfortunately for the hastily contrived script about a mad dash upstairs to confront the wrongly accused, this lone single witness merely places Roy Truly in the company of a male figure (note not an obviously dressed uniformed white helmeted motorcycle officer in loooong black boots) ----->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
    Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
    Mr. BALL And where were you?
    Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.
    Mr. BALL. What did they do?
    Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly."
    They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about that.


What's worse is the timing element in Mr. Piper's account as he shares further within his testimony that his encounter with Roy Truly came several minutes after the assassination. The hastily contrived script falsely leads us to believe that a few minutes later the tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker have already encountered the wrongly accused and subsequently are charging up the backstairs to reach floors 3, 4, and 5 via foot.

I'm open to anyone sharing here one more witness besides Mr. Piper who actually saw Roy Truly near the backstairs on the first floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination...

Moving along now, both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker in their sworn testimony make claims about their exploits upon an otherwise locked roof (from the inside) ------>

Back in 12-15mins to share supporting documentation revealing their outright lie about their exploits upon that otherwise Locked roof...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 08, 2020, 04:31:55 PM

Welcome Alan. Glad that you liked it.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 08, 2020, 04:49:18 PM
Welcome Alan. Glad that you liked it.

Fred

Always an interesting presentation, Mr. Clements, when the author/contributor honestly, objectively introduces Facts as opposed to pushing a hastily contrived script to frame an innocent-party.

Sidebar: Mr. Nessan, Here's an honourable man tossing suspicion upon the lying tandem of Roy Truly & Marrion Baker's phantom exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside) ----->

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

Name of Compainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy

Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date Nov 23, 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I askes some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor. I met more officers on the 2nd floor and then in a few minutes the place had maybe 50 officers in it...


Just another example when the hastily contrived script forgets the small, yet important details while framing an innocent party. There's more, Mr. Nessan, but as promised just wanted you and anyone else reading along who cares to examine this case objectively to be aware of what great magnitude the hastily contrived script fails.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anyone. Anyone.

As stated earlier, I'm open to anyone presenting another witness besides Mr. Piper who actually places Roy Truly by the stairs on the first floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination. Roy Truly & Marrion Baker don't count as they are proven liars.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 02:42:48 AM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred

Taking this informative & interesting presentation into consideration, just a brief follow up to legal counsel's comments regarding the wrongly accused taking note of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman reentering the building mere minutes before the motorcade's arrival. Mr. Dwyer's excellent points amid his exceptional style of delivery conveys to those of us willing to be honest/objective two key points:

(A) The wrongly accused cannot be upstairs at 12:25PM lurking in wait in the sixth floor southeast window in front of the building and yet witness the actions of two actual people who he accurately named reenter the building from the rear six stories below.

(B) With the tandem of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman in mind, neither man conveyed that the wrongly accused got on the elevator with them to ascend to an upper floor. Moreover, given Mr. Dougherty's testimony about returning to work at 12:30PM up on the sixth floor, he did not see the wrongly accused come up from the first-floor lunchroom via elevator and/or via the backstairs. So, since none of us believe in magic enough to suggest he magically teleported himself invisibly somehow from his actual position in the first floor lunchroom up to the staged sniper's nest, Mr. Hosty's revealing revelation is the lone option left for honest, objective researchers, at the very least, to take into consideration.

Back tomorrow good Lord willing to determine if someone has produced any other witness(es) that place Roy Truly taking the backstairs from off the first-floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination.  Given the urgency to frame an innocent party amid a hastily contrived script,  it doesn't surprise that no other witness has been produced, and the only witness, Mr. Piper, only mentions another fellow w/Roy Truly, rather than an obvious uniformed dressed white-helmeted motorcycle policeman in loooong black boots. A rather telling revelation.

Outright lying about their exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside) is rather telling as well. Roy Truly and Marrion Baker are full of it.  The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 09, 2020, 03:27:59 PM
Mr. Nessan,

First, my apologies for the initial spelling of your name in my previous post (respecting it prompted me to do some due-diligence and get it correct before addressing you here in that follow up post I promised yesterday).

Please take the time to actually watch & listen to Mr. Dwyer's astute presentation to gain some invaluable insights into this case. That said, here are a few things to address with an open mind as well:

*Only one witness, just one, places Roy Truly near the elevator & stairs on the first-floor that afternoon during the aftermath of the assassination. Unfortunately for the hastily contrived script about a mad dash upstairs to confront the wrongly accused, this lone single witness merely places Roy Truly in the company of a male figure (note not an obviously dressed uniformed white helmeted motorcycle officer in loooong black boots) ----->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
    Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
    Mr. BALL And where were you?
    Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.
    Mr. BALL. What did they do?
    Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly."
    They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about that.


What's worse is the timing element in Mr. Piper's account as he shares further within his testimony that his encounter with Roy Truly came several minutes after the assassination. The hastily contrived script falsely leads us to believe that a few minutes later the tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker have already encountered the wrongly accused and subsequently are charging up the backstairs to reach floors 3, 4, and 5 via foot.

I'm open to anyone sharing here one more witness besides Mr. Piper who actually saw Roy Truly near the backstairs on the first floor during the immediate aftermath of the assassination...

Moving along now, both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker in their sworn testimony make claims about their exploits upon an otherwise locked roof (from the inside) ------>

Back in 12-15mins to share supporting documentation revealing their outright lie about their exploits upon that otherwise Locked roof...

Piper immediately identifies the man with Truly as a policeman.
Mr. Ball: Tell me what you heard.
Mr.Piper..... "I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone.

Mr. Ball: You mentioned you saw someone with Truly?
Mr. Piper: I don't know if it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but there was another fellow with him.


-------------------------

Wiseman---" I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch."

It was locked on the inside. Anyone on the inside could undo the lock open the door and go up onto the roof.


----------------------

No, that is all wrong. Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.
Baker:  . As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Here is Oswald's final words on the subject. The statement, by Oswald himself, really calls into question the whole conspiracy theory.

Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

LHO: "I started to go out and see what it was all about"---- He is in the building not outside on the front steps

 After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 05:12:45 PM
my responses in italics ---->

Piper immediately identifies the man with Truly as a policeman.
Mr. Ball: Tell me what you heard.
Mr.Piper..... "I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone.

Greetings there, Mr. Nessan

Appreciate your timely response. However,  In your quote above, you do realize a few minutes is much later than the 90 secs the hastily contrived script wishes us to believe?

Also, Mr. Piper wouldn't describe a uniformed dressed white helmeted motorcycle officer as someone working with the FBI. Major difference between a well dressed FBI agent and a white helmeted motorcycle officer in long black boots sir.


-------------------------

Wiseman---" I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch."

It was locked on the inside. Anyone on the inside could undo the lock open the door and go up onto the roof.

You're right about that if they had a key. However, lest any of us forget the lying tandem of Roy Truly & Marrion Baker per their own testimonies claim to be upon that otherwise Locked roof minutes before Mr. Wiseman discovered it Locked from the inside. So, How did Roy Truly & Marrion Baker access that otherwise Locked roof (from the inside). Even if the answer is Roy Truly had a key, there's not enough magic even in Disney World to convince critical-thinkers that Roy Truly was magical enough to lock it from the other side. Let alone magically unlock it when it was time to end their phantom exploits upon that otherwise Locked roof (from the inside).

----------------------

No, that is all wrong. Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.
Baker:  . As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Please read Baker's initial first day affidavit (will post it here for you over the next 12-15 minutes or so (please note precisely where the encounter takes place before the hastily contrived script rears its deceiving, misleading head.


Here is Oswald's final words on the subject. The statement, by Oswald himself, really calls into question the whole conspiracy theory.

Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Amid a hastily contrived script to sell to a then trusting, somewhat naive general public, we may never know precisely what the wrongly accused actually said and/or in which ordered sequence, but I do appreciate you sharing what you have learnt to date.


Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

LHO: "I started to go out and see what it was all about"---- He is in the building not outside on the front steps

 After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Be wary of anything the lying rooftop tandem of Roy Truly & Marrion Baker say after Baker's initial same day affidavit.
Off to fetch and produce Baker's same affidavit for your review.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 09, 2020, 05:35:37 PM

No, that is all wrong. Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.
Baker:  . As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Here is Oswald's final words on the subject. The statement, by Oswald himself, really calls into question the whole conspiracy theory.

Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

LHO: "I started to go out and see what it was all about"---- He is in the building not outside on the front steps

After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.


Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.

No it doesn't. If you put value on what Oswald allegedly said, according to Holmes, you have to conclude that Baker stopped Oswald "just before I [Oswald] got to the front door", which is no way near the lunchroom and even less near the 3rd or 4th floor. In fact the front door is on the other side of the building!

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

Actually, it isn't informative at all. You just want it to be.... The fact is that if Oswald went outside he would have to go down to the first floor level in order to leave the building. Using the stairs at the entrance of the building would be going down. You attached way too much value to a comment that is merely attributed to Oswald by a third party without even knowing for sure if Oswald actually used those words verbatim. That, in my book, is making up a story based on speculation and not fact.

After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Which is exactly the conclusion you wanted to arrive on. It is however not a conclusion supported by the known facts.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 05:40:18 PM
Appreciate your patience there, Mr. Nessan, am not on my own computer at the moment, so had to actually go web surfing to find Baker's same day affidavit ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


Took the liberty of highlighting the points to ponder. Again, be wary of anything the lying rooftop tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker say after this document. If you are honest as I suspect you are, Ask yourself How did an encounter outside of the lunchroom with an individual walking away from stairs now become amid a hastily contrived script about an encounter in a lunchroom? Please let that sink in a fair, objective manner sir.

Moreover, the wrongly accused, according to the authorities only weighed 131lbs on November 22, 1963, nowhere near 140lbs let alone 165.

Again, Mr. Nessan, be wary of the hastily contrived script that suddenly reared its falsehoods after Baker's same day affidavit. They willfully outright lied about their phantom exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside). The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 05:45:09 PM
Officer Baker's statement matches LHO's about the 2nd floor encounter.

No it doesn't. If you put value on what Oswald allegedly said, according to Holmes, you have to conclude that Baker stopped Oswald "just before I [Oswald] got to the front door", which is no way near the lunchroom and even less near the 3rd or 4th floor. In fact the front door is on the other side of the building!

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

Actually, it isn't informative at all. You just want it to be.... The fact is that if Oswald went outside he would have to go down to the first floor level in order to leave the building. Using the stairs at the entrance of the building would be going down. You attached way too much value to a comment that is merely attributed to Oswald by a third party without even knowing for sure if Oswald actually used those words verbatim. That, in my book, is making up a story based on speculation and not fact.

After firing the rifle, his rifle, "he went downstairs" where he encountered Truly and Baker on the second floor. He never was outside other than when he was fleeing the building.

Which is exactly the conclusion you wanted to arrive on. It is however not a conclusion supported by the known facts.

A voice of reason amid keen discernment.

About as fair, objective a response as possible. Read this spot on post again and again, Mr. Nessan, and be wary of becoming mired in blind-folded tunnel-vision amid a self-serving hastily contrived script to frame an innocent party.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 09, 2020, 05:45:36 PM
 I can't believe that someone actually wrote a book "the exoneration of...". 

 Without the original Darnell film, no definite conclusions can be made that it is Oswald.  No one knows exactly what clothes O had on while at the TSBD that morning to make a positive claim of what he was wearing between the time the assassination took place and his arrest.  William Whaley said Oswald had on gray slacks when Oswald entered his cab.  Clearly, Oswald is not wearing gray pants in any of the photos or films taken of him during his arrest, and being paraded back and forth in fronts of the press at DPD headquarters.  Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 06:44:15 PM
Lawyer Richard Dwyer speaks about Prayer Man.


Fred

Absolutely marvel at the courage of people who have the ability to encourage critical-thinking in others in spite of the challenges, not to mention their keen powers of discernment to shed light, truth & justice.

That said, legal-counsel Dwyer made an interesting comment in respect to the observations of Ms. Arnold (Carolyn). We are left to wonder how many other times those charged with "investigating" this matter changed the wording and timing in statements made by others.

The absolute truth always has a knack for standing all alone on its own, only lies need revisions, Especially amid a hastily contrived script to frame an innocent-party.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on August 09, 2020, 07:16:24 PM
The absolute truth always has a knack for standing all alone on its own, only lies need revisions,

Nicely said.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 07:34:25 PM
Nicely said.

Thank You!, Mr. Down, appreciate the kind words sir.  Of course, you have shared enough "Well said" posts of your own on this Forum to know them when you see them.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on August 09, 2020, 07:49:33 PM
Mr. Nessan,

Should you venture back here at some point, please feel free to share any follow up responses directed towards me in my abscene, not a matter of ignoring you or your potential post(s)...just making you aware should you do so my response will be delayed...but will double-back here the good Lord willing to reengage next weekend after the work week ahead.

Best to All to remain well, healthy & safe amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 09, 2020, 08:25:36 PM
Oswald: "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Notice LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" --- so simple but very informative,

You ignored this the first time I asked.  Let's see if you continue to ignore it.

How does going down to get to the front door mean "above the second floor"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2020, 09:14:07 PM
Without the original Darnell film, no definite conclusions can be made.

So we can't rule out Mr Oswald.

Now! Who------other than Mr Oswald-------can be ruled in, Mr Barber? Can you give us your list of credible candidates? Can you even give us one name?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2020, 09:21:19 PM
You ignored this the first time I asked.  Let's see if you continue to ignore it.

How does going down to get to the front door mean "above the second floor"?

Welcome to LN math, Mr Iacoletti, where 1+1=6!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 10, 2020, 01:04:23 AM
So we can't rule out Mr Oswald.

Now! Who------other than Mr Oswald-------can be ruled in, Mr Barber? Can you give us your list of credible candidates? Can you even give us one name?

 Thumb1:
     Oh come on!  Is that all you got out of my post?!   Read it!   Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 10, 2020, 01:15:25 AM
     Oh come on!  Is that all you got out of my post?!   Read it!   Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

So if a witness does not see you (or does not say he saw you) it's proof you were not there....Is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 10, 2020, 04:28:33 AM
This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

So if a witness does not see you (or does not say he saw you) it's proof you were not there....Is that what you are saying?
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?  You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?  This whole thing is absurd.     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 10, 2020, 05:40:19 AM
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?  You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?  This whole thing is absurd.     

Contradictions don't exist at CT Central

(https://i.postimg.cc/PxJJdXXB/can-of-worms.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 10, 2020, 07:18:27 AM
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?  You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?  This whole thing is absurd.     

That's not all what I said--nor am saying.

Ok, sure sounded like it though...

Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.

They can only make that claim because in the past 57 years it has never been resolved who the person is that was standing there. Everybody else on those stairs has been identified. The authorities must have known earlier on there was somebody there, yet they failed or perhaps didn't even try to put a name to that person.

So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?

No, I am not going to tell you anything of the kind. I not a big fan of looking at a blurry picture to make an "identification", but I  do feel the image is clear enough to see that there is a person there. Having said that, there are IMO a couple of points to consider; (1) Oswald told Fritz he bought a coke and then went outside to see what the commotion was. Mrs Reid saw him walking in the direction of the front door holding a bottle and an empty bottle was later found in the stairs. (2) With the motorcade passing by, and shots being fired, it doesn't seem likely to me that anybody on the stairs was looking in any other direction but the street. (3) As I understand it, the location of all TSBD employees, except Oswald's, are accounted for. (4) Nobody has ever come forward to say he/she was the person on the stairs. Why not?

With this in mind, it seems to me not beyond the realm of possibility that Oswald got to that position, while the shots were being fired and the video footage was being filmed, without anybody consciously seeing him or taking notice. If he went back into the building only seconds later, most, if not all, people wouldn't even have been aware he was there. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying or claiming that he actually was there, I am merely saying that in theory it is possible he was and nobody saw him because they all had their backs to him.

Now, as to what Frazier would do, I can not comment. I don't know the man well enough to make any kind of determination about what kind of person he is. People react differently under pressure. Don't forget Frazier was initially arrested and interrogated. Fritz even presented him with an already written confession he wanted Frazier to sign. Even if Frazier did register Oswald's presence on the stairs, do you really believe he would recall that instantly in such a stressful situation or that he would tell the officers, who already suspected him of being an accomplice. He may well have figured that Oswald would resolve the matter himself by telling the interrogators exactly where he was (which is what he seems to have done) and futher investigation would clear him anyway. Obviously, 36 hours later Oswald was dead and there wasn't much point in coming forward anymore.

You don't think Frazier would come to Oswald's rescue--and/or anyone else standing in that entrance who most certainly would have known Oswald was right there after his face is flashed all over the TV and newspapers?

People were in a state of shock and most of them, if not all, were afraid because they did not know what was going on. Brennan said he did not identify Oswald in the line up for exactly that reason. So, why do you accept this when Brennan is concerned, but not in Frazier's case? And, like I said earlier, if Oswald was there briefly, Frazier might not have seen him at all.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
     Oh come on!  Is that all you got out of my post?!   Read it!   Not one person who knew the anti-social Oswald through the experience of being snubbed by him when they would greet him on different occasions --or even Frazier who knew him personally--said they saw him during or after the assassination standing in the entrance way of the  building .  Had they, this would have instantly been an alibi for Oswald.  This, in itself, is proof that the puke wasn't standing in the entrance of the the TSBD in the Darnell footage.

 :D

Can you or can you not offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man, Mr Barber?

If you're scared of the question, keep on not answering it!   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:38:31 AM
 

  That's not all what I said--nor am saying.  Frazier, Oswald's companion on the morning of 11/22/63, and co-worker, is standing in the entrance way of the book depository with a person certain buffs are saying is Oswald.  Oswald became the most famous person in the world that day.  So, are you going to tell me that if Frazier and Oswald are standing together--within inches of each other-within a minute of the last shot, and Frazier standing within inches of Oswald facing each other--wouldn't have come forward after Oswald was accused of killing the president--and told the authorities that Oswald was standing right there when the shots were fired, or was standing there too soon after the last shot-and therefore couldn't have been the  assassin?

 :D

And yet you have no difficulty accepting that Mr Frazier (and Mr Molina), who were standing at that front door when Officer Marion Baker came tearing up the steps, had no memory of having seen the white-helmeted policeman. Seems consistency ain't your forte, Mr Barber!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve Barber on August 10, 2020, 02:10:53 PM
:D

Can you or can you not offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man, Mr Barber?

If you're scared of the question, keep on not answering it!   Thumb1:

 Oh, pardon me!  Don't flatter yourself, Mr. Ford! None of you conspiracy buffs say anything that "scare" me!
 
Your question is both ridiculous and stupid.  You expect a person to name "a credible alternative" to "Prayer man", when none of us know what all of the men who worked at the depository looked like!  Furthermore, no one knows whether "Prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD or someone off the street!  So there's your answer!  Like it or not!   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 10, 2020, 03:25:23 PM
Appreciate your patience there, Mr. Nessan, am not on my own computer at the moment, so had to actually go web surfing to find Baker's same day affidavit ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


Took the liberty of highlighting the points to ponder. Again, be wary of anything the lying rooftop tandem of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker say after this document. If you are honest as I suspect you are, Ask yourself How did an encounter outside of the lunchroom with an individual walking away from stairs now become amid a hastily contrived script about an encounter in a lunchroom? Please let that sink in a fair, objective manner sir.

Moreover, the wrongly accused, according to the authorities only weighed 131lbs on November 22, 1963, nowhere near 140lbs let alone 165.

Again, Mr. Nessan, be wary of the hastily contrived script that suddenly reared its falsehoods after Baker's same day affidavit. They willfully outright lied about their phantom exploits upon an otherwise Locked roof (from the inside). The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.


The roof door was locked from the inside and could only be opened by someone on the inside which is what they did.

---------------

Baker is not the villian. There were shots fired and Baker was trying to locate the source. Same as anybody would. He was running up the stairs and seen LHO out of the corner of his eye. A few seconds difference and Baker would not have even seen him at all.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----

----------------------------


Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 10, 2020, 03:30:22 PM
You ignored this the first time I asked.  Let's see if you continue to ignore it.

How does going down to get to the front door mean "above the second floor"?

 LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" can only mean he was located above the second floor and went down to the second floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 10, 2020, 04:57:22 PM
LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" can only mean he was located above the second floor and went down to the second floor.

That's a very one sided interpretation of words that Oswald may or may not have spoken.

To go outside the building, as he said - according to the same report - he did, he also needed to go down, from the 2nd floor to street level. If Oswald actually said those words at all, he could just as easily have been talking about going down the stairs at the front door.

You also seem to want to cherry pick what, according to the report, Oswald said as you ignore his comment: "a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door". If Oswald said this and it is true, there never was an encounter in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and him being stopped just before he got to the front door gives further credence to the suggestion that he actually was talking about going outside when he said "I went down".

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 10, 2020, 07:28:26 PM
LHO said "I went down"---meaning he was on a floor above the 2nd floor where the encounter took place. "I went down" can only mean he was located above the second floor and went down to the second floor.

The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:45:55 PM
Oh, pardon me!  Don't flatter yourself, Mr. Ford! None of you conspiracy buffs say anything that "scare" me!
 
Your question is both ridiculous and stupid.  You expect a person to name "a credible alternative" to "Prayer man", when none of us know what all of the men who worked at the depository looked like!  Furthermore, no one knows whether "Prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD or someone off the street!  So there's your answer!  Like it or not!

I don't just like your answer, Mr Barber, I love it--------it shows how lost you are on this issue!  Thumb1:

Now! Prayer Man (and I note your agreement that's it's a Man not a Woman) is not just in the Darnell film but in the Wiegman film too. At the time of the shooting, therefore, he is standing over by himself at the west side of the front entrance.

Here's where your problem starts, Mr Barber... Every single Depository worker who came to work that day gave account of their whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Not a single one---------not a one!----------puts themselves where we see Prayer Man. They all put themselves somewhere else!  Thumb1:

What this means is that your 'we don't know what all employees looked like' line is a hopeless deflection. Because even if you could come up with the name of a single employee whose appearance (physiognomy, clothes, hair) might make them a fit for Prayer Man (which you obviously can't!), that person would be immediately ruled out by virtue of their known presence elsewhere. An example of this would be Mr Billy Lovelady, whom we know was NOT standing beside Mr Billy Lovelady at the time of the shooting!

Keeping up so far, Mr Barber? Good for you------------let's proceed!  Thumb1:

The collapse of your 'some other Depository man' argument leaves you with your Hail Mary pass: Prayer Man is a random stranger off the street. The fact that you resort to this second hopeless argument merely tells us that your powers of logic leave a lot to be desired. On the one hand, you tell us how crazy it is to suggest that a nondescript employee (Mr Oswald) might have blended in all but unnoticed amongst a bunch of fellow employees; on the other hand, you tell us that you have no problem believing that a stranger could have stood up there----------the sole non-employee in an area filled only with employees------------and NOT have stood out like a sore thumb.

Your scenario, in short, is based on irrational thinking--------------par for the course with LN 'researchers' like you whose intense emotional investment in Mr Oswald's guilt clouds their cognitive faculties when it comes to assessing evidence that doesn't fit their beloved narrative!

A much more sensible-------------not least for your own ultimate peace of mind, Mr Barber!-----------would be to accept that a) you got this case all wrong, b) an employee who we now know claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. parade" did indeed do so, and chose a place where plenty other employees were congregated, and unsurprisingly didn't stick out like a sore thumb (as your mythical Random Stranger would have done!).

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 08:47:25 PM
The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Poor Mr Nessan thinks the front door was located at the second-floor lunchroom!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 10, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
If Baker is telling the truth he confronted Oswald on the second floor.
If the recorded words are true Baker confronted Oswald just as he reached the front door.
Either way, Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination
This is in accordance with the video evidence of Oswald saying exactly this. ("In" meaning "inside" in this case)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2020, 11:28:24 PM
If Baker is telling the truth he confronted Oswald on the second floor.

If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?

Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in...

Quote
If the recorded words are true Baker confronted Oswald just as he reached the front door.
Either way, Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination

Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?

Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?

Quote
This is in accordance with the video evidence of Oswald saying exactly this. ("In" meaning "inside" in this case)

If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade".

While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2020, 12:05:37 AM
If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?

Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in...

Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?

Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?

If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade".

While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)

"If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?"

He was unfamiliar with the building and pumped full of adrenaline. In his statement he is very vague about where the confrontation took place, possibly not realising it's importance. He doesn't say "a floor higher than two". The re-enactment probably cleared things up if he hadn't already realised it was the second floor.

"Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in... "

The usual fantasia Mr Ford

"Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?"

Read the post you're replying to.

"Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?"

This is what Baker actually stated: "As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were."
Do you see how you've twisted the original meaning?
Were they inside or outside? The clue is in the phrase "As I entered the front door". The front door delineates inside and outside. Isn't that obvious?
Who are these people? I thought you Prayer Man lot had accounted for where everyone was. Roy Lewis also talks about some women standing in this area. Who are they? Don't you know?

"If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade"."

Erm...


"While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)"


The second you come up with anyone even remotely credible I'll give it some thought 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 11, 2020, 04:15:44 AM

Frazier has been shown the Prayer Man photo on many occasions and each time he has given different answers. He has never said that is Oswald, but has never said that is not Oswald either.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 11, 2020, 05:59:47 AM
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2020, 12:24:06 PM
"If Officer Baker is telling the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit, he confronted a man walking away from the stairway on a floor higher than two! Why on earth should we favor months-later WC testimony over a same-day statement?"

He was unfamiliar with the building and pumped full of adrenaline. In his statement he is very vague about where the confrontation took place,

No, he's not----------------he says he saw the man "walking away from the stairway", he called out to the man and the man turned around and came back to him. Nothing vague there!  Thumb1:

Quote
possibly not realising it's importance. He doesn't say "a floor higher than two".

You don't think "third or fourth floor" is higher than second floor?  ::)

Quote
The re-enactment probably cleared things up if he hadn't already realised it was the second floor.

How naive!

Quote
"Now! As Officer Baker is giving this very affidavit, Mr Oswald is brought into the Homicide Office in front of his eyes-------------yet Officer Baker clearly doesn't recognize him as the man he had confronted... the affidavit makes no connection between the man just brought in and the man I caught walking away from the stairway. If he does recognize the man just brought in, then it will have been as the man he asked for help as he was entering the front door of the building. In which case it is perhaps already dawning on Officer Baker just what a tangled web he has gotten caught up in... "

The usual fantasia Mr Ford

So you didn't even know that Officer Baker saw Mr Oswald being brought in as he (Officer Baker) was giving his affidavit? Oh dear...

Quote
"Slow down! Who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Officer Baker or Mr Oswald?"

Read the post you're replying to.

I have done, Mr O'Meara, and it's hopelessly unclear: who is the 'he' in "as he reached the front door"? Do tell!  Thumb1:

Quote
"Officer Baker, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, tells us that as he was entering the front door he asked "several people" who were "standing around" where the stairs were. Who can these several people have been, and where exactly do you think they were standing---------inside or outside?"

This is what Baker actually stated: "As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were."
Do you see how you've twisted the original meaning?
Were they inside or outside? The clue is in the phrase "As I entered the front door". The front door delineates inside and outside. Isn't that obvious?
Who are these people? I thought you Prayer Man lot had accounted for where everyone was. Roy Lewis also talks about some women standing in this area. Who are they? Don't you know?

Nice try, but... nope! Officer Baker's "As I entered the door" could place the people "standing around" either inside or outside.

Quote
"If it were "exactly this", you wouldn't need to change "in" to "inside"! And your switcheroo doesn't even begin to dispose of the Hosty draft report: "Then went outside to watch P. parade"."

Erm...

Exactly------you can't explain away what's in the Hosty draft report and so just do what you tend to do in these situations: ignore what's inconvenient to your theory.

Quote

"While you're there, Mr O'Meara, have you come up with a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man yet? (Mr Barber seems to have run away!)"


The second you come up with anyone even remotely credible I'll give it some thought 8)

So you refuse to accept even the possibility that Prayer Man might be Mr Oswald, yet you still can't offer a single credible alternative candidate? No wonder you don't want to talk about the Hosty draft report!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2020, 12:29:06 PM
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close.

V. interesting, Mr Crow----------the selfsame ambiguity about exact location as we have been debating re. Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony!  Thumb1:

Cf! the first FBI interview report with Mr Truly: "...he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there and he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs..."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 11, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
The statement you are interpreting says nothing about the second floor.

Holmes:
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Exactly, obviously he was not outside or even on the first floor during the parade. He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs. He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated. Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor and LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Basically was LHO on the second floor or not when he encountered Baker and Truly.




Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 11, 2020, 05:22:53 PM
Exactly, obviously he was not outside or even on the first floor during the parade. He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs. He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated. Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor and LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Basically was LHO on the second floor or not when he encountered Baker and Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.

He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs.

Now you're getting it... and to go downstairs (meaning outside) he had to leave the building at the front door and go down the stairs.

He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated.

Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor.

Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor

Well, ain't that a shame... You were doing so well, and now you've gone and spoil it. There is nothing in Oswald's (or rather Holmes') account that confirms he was descending from a higher floor.

LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2020, 10:40:30 PM
"Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building..."


"Up in the building"
Yet another statement Oswald was inside the building at the time of the shooting according to Oswald.
Unless, of course, "up in the building" means up the front steps, placing him exactly where the PM crew fantasise about him being  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2020, 11:12:20 PM
"Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building..."


"Up in the building"
Yet another statement Oswald was inside the building at the time of the shooting according to Oswald.

Funny how your response to a trained FBI agent's clearly worded draft official interrogation report 11/22/63 was: unless you can show me audio or footage of Mr Oswald actually saying this, I won't believe it... Whereas your response to Mr Holmes's clearly muddled WC testimony given months after the event is: we can safely bank this as a statement from Oswald.

Could you at least do a better job of pretending to be consistent, Mr O'Meara?

Also! Any progress on your alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Or are you coming around to the view that it's probably not a human being after all but a mere film artefact?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2020, 11:22:50 PM
Funny how your response to a trained FBI agent's clearly worded draft official interrogation report 11/22/63 was: unless you can show me audio or footage of Mr Oswald actually saying this, I won't believe it... Whereas your response to Mr Holmes's clearly muddled WC testimony given months after the event is: we can safely bank this as a statement from Oswald.

Could you at least do a better job of pretending to be consistent, Mr O'Meara?

Also! Any progress on your alternative candidate for Prayer Man? Or are you coming around to the view that it's probably not a human being after all but a mere film artefact?

 Thumb1:
All I'm saying is that Holmes confirms what came out of Oswald's mouth on video. Not really sure how Hosty's notes beat this.
I've noticed you've dropped the word 'credible', perhaps an admission of the status of you're own choice.
I must say, the more I look at Prayer Man, the fatter she gets! Must be my old tired eyes  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2020, 11:01:36 AM
All I'm saying is that Holmes confirms what came out of Oswald's mouth on video. Not really sure how Hosty's notes beat this.

All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else.

Suppose the exchange with the reporter had gone as follows-------------

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
MR OSWALD: Front entrance steps.


Are you seriously suggesting Mr Oswald's response would have been incorrect or misleading, or that he should have gone into semantics with the reporter?

As for why the Hosty draft report beats a) your tendentious interpretation of Mr Oswald's actual response to the reporter + b) Mr Holmes' muddled recall months after the event, the answer is obvious:

The words "Then went outside to watch P. parade" are:
------------------matchlessly unambiguous (not "went outside to see what was happening/to see the commotion/excitement, etc")
------------------written on the back of a blank DPD affidavit form, i.e. while the memory of Mr Oswald's first interrogation is still fresh
------------------found on a page of an FBI agent's official draft report that contains plenty other information that no one is suggesting is erroneous

If you disagree with this last point, take a look at the page and tell us what else (other than the explosive "Then went outside to watch P. parade") you believe Agent Hosty hallucinated Mr Oswald as having said:

(https://i.imgur.com/4k9namT.jpg)

To suggest that Agent Hosty misheard or completely misunderstood what the suspect had to say about the single most critical question in the single most momentous case he or anyone else had ever been involved in is just fanciful in the extreme.

Quote
I've noticed you've dropped the word 'credible', perhaps an admission of the status of you're own choice.

Not at all! Mr Oswald is the only credible candidate thus far put forward for Prayer Man. And you still can't come up with an alternative credible candidate!  Thumb1:

Quote
I must say, the more I look at Prayer Man, the fatter she gets! Must be my old tired eyes 

Well, those same eyes were recently telling you Prayer Man was lighting a cigarette. How did that work out?

Admit it, Mr O'Meara, if it were possible to identify Prayer Man as Mr Billy Lovelady, you'd be enthusiastically backing that I.D. and telling us all how obvious it is that Prayer Man is a slim white male in worker's garb-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/a0QwrHZ.gif)

Unfortunately for you, and for all the other members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, Mr Lovelady is not available to make Prayer Man safe. And nor, it would appear from your responses to date, is anyone else!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 12, 2020, 04:24:34 PM

 I do wish that NBC would release the original films. Then this issue could be solved.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2020, 05:47:37 PM
Fun fact, friends, which I came across here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/page/87/

Back in 2013, when the Prayer Man issue first came to the fore, our very own Mr Steve Barber took one look at him and identified him as..... Mr Billy Lovelady!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 12, 2020, 08:40:29 PM
All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else.

Suppose the exchange with the reporter had gone as follows-------------

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
MR OSWALD: Front entrance steps.


Are you seriously suggesting Mr Oswald's response would have been incorrect or misleading, or that he should have gone into semantics with the reporter?

As for why the Hosty draft report beats a) your tendentious interpretation of Mr Oswald's actual response to the reporter + b) Mr Holmes' muddled recall months after the event, the answer is obvious:

The words "Then went outside to watch P. parade" are:
------------------matchlessly unambiguous (not "went outside to see what was happening/to see the commotion/excitement, etc")
------------------written on the back of a blank DPD affidavit form, i.e. while the memory of Mr Oswald's first interrogation is still fresh
------------------found on a page of an FBI agent's official draft report that contains plenty other information that no one is suggesting is erroneous

If you disagree with this last point, take a look at the page and tell us what else (other than the explosive "Then went outside to watch P. parade") you believe Agent Hosty hallucinated Mr Oswald as having said:

(https://i.imgur.com/4k9namT.jpg)

To suggest that Agent Hosty misheard or completely misunderstood what the suspect had to say about the single most critical question in the single most momentous case he or anyone else had ever been involved in is just fanciful in the extreme.

Not at all! Mr Oswald is the only credible candidate thus far put forward for Prayer Man. And you still can't come up with an alternative credible candidate!  Thumb1:

Well, those same eyes were recently telling you Prayer Man was lighting a cigarette. How did that work out?

Admit it, Mr O'Meara, if it were possible to identify Prayer Man as Mr Billy Lovelady, you'd be enthusiastically backing that I.D. and telling us all how obvious it is that Prayer Man is a slim white male in worker's garb-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/a0QwrHZ.gif)

Unfortunately for you, and for all the other members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, Mr Lovelady is not available to make Prayer Man safe. And nor, it would appear from your responses to date, is anyone else!  Thumb1:

"All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else."

All I have is Oswald on video confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination, corroborated by Holmes. The insane mental gymnastics involved in arguing that out on the front steps of the building is 'still in the building' are spooky. Nobody looks at it that way except for the zealous PM crew. The front door is right there, on one side is in the building on the other is outside the building. Please don't respond to this comment as I've heard all I need to hear about it.

"Suppose the exchange with the reporter had gone as follows-------------

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
MR OSWALD: Front entrance steps.


Are you seriously suggesting Mr Oswald's response would have been incorrect or misleading, or that he should have gone into semantics with the reporter?"


 :D :D :D :D
Brilliant stuff. More fantasia Mr Ford! Suppose the exchange went like this:

REPORTER: Where in the building were you at the time?
OSWALD: I'm Prayer Man.

 :P

"As for why the Hosty draft report beats a) your tendentious interpretation of Mr Oswald's actual response to the reporter + b) Mr Holmes' muddled recall months after the event, the answer is obvious:

The words "Then went outside to watch P. parade" are:
------------------matchlessly unambiguous (not "went outside to see what was happening/to see the commotion/excitement, etc")
------------------written on the back of a blank DPD affidavit form, i.e. while the memory of Mr Oswald's first interrogation is still fresh
------------------found on a page of an FBI agent's official draft report that contains plenty other information that no one is suggesting is erroneous"


Oswald is involved in the assassination and is giving a false alibi. Why has this not crossed your mind. In PM world Oswald must be seen as a completely innocent bystander. Is that the case? Do you believe that Oswald had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination?

"Not at all! Mr Oswald is the only credible candidate thus far put forward for Prayer Man. And you still can't come up with an alternative credible candidate!  Thumb1:"

Oswald is not even remotely credible. The single piece of evidence you have put forward for Prayer Man even being a man, let alone Oswald, is that the Shadow Person has a receding hairline. This is wrong. You are seeing what you want to see. What else do you have to offer on this subject. What other piece of evidence makes you believe this is a man?

"Well, those same eyes were recently telling you Prayer Man was lighting a cigarette. How did that work out?"

(https://i.postimg.cc/hj5JmBnP/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

This Gif shows someone lighting a cigarette. Frame 1, the head tilts forward to light the cigarette (not something you would do if taking a drink out of a bottle). Frame 2, head straightens up and blows out a cloud of smoke. The Coke bottle on the steps is almost certainly Lovelady's.

"Admit it, Mr O'Meara, if it were possible to identify Prayer Man as Mr Billy Lovelady, you'd be enthusiastically backing that I.D. and telling us all how obvious it is that Prayer Man is a slim white male in worker's garb-----------"

Lovelady is just in front of the Shadow Person listening to Gloria Calvery. Note that all these people re-entering the building also fail to identify Oswald.
Admit it Mr Ford, you've put too much time and effort into this nonsense and you can't back out now. You end up making bizarre arguments like outside the building is still in the building because you simply cannot back out now. You need to be the Prayer Man, Mr Ford, and pray something never comes to light to show how misguided Team Oswald On The Steps have been.  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2020, 10:59:36 PM
Let's cut to the chase, Mr O'Meara!

With respect to Agent Hosty's information that Mr Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. parade", you write-----------

Oswald is involved in the assassination and is giving a false alibi.

And there we have it----------we cannot countenance Mr Oswald as Prayer Man because he needs to give a false alibi for the time of the shooting.

What makes you think Mr Oswald needs a false alibi for the time of the shooting? Where do you believe he actually was at the time in question?

And how do you explain the fact that those involved in his interrogation lied about what he claimed in custody? Why would they press mute on an alibi they knew to be false?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 12, 2020, 11:22:35 PM
Exactly, obviously he was not outside or even on the first floor during the parade. He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs. He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated. Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor

If Holmes was accurate then Oswald needed to be no higher than the second floor before "going down".  You stated that he had to be above the second floor.

But that doesn't tell you anything about where he was during the assassination.  Just "when all this commotion started", whatever that means.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 12, 2020, 11:36:38 PM
Oswald is not even remotely credible. The single piece of evidence you have put forward for Prayer Man even being a man, let alone Oswald, is that the Shadow Person has a receding hairline. This is wrong. You are seeing what you want to see.

Doesn't the same go for your "fat woman lighting a cigarette"?

Quote
Lovelady is just in front of the Shadow Person listening to Gloria Calvery.

LOL
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 12, 2020, 11:57:03 PM
Doesn't the same go for your "fat woman lighting a cigarette"?

LOL
Honestly John, I have no real desire or need to see a fat woman lighting a cigarette.
The PM crew do have a need and desire to see Oswald there.
I think the argument for it being Oswald is really weak and there are solid arguments against it:
Oswald himself saying he was in the building (what do you think about the outside yet still in the building twist?)
Holmes confirming it.
Not one witness putting him there
If he was always going to be the Patsy, those running the show couldn't have him just running around

I think the Gif looks more like someone lighting a cigarette than any other idea put forward.
The 'woman' aspect is there to highlight this is a real possibility. Assuming it's a man because it has to be Oswald isn't good enough.
And the Shadow Person looks beefier than skinny ol' Oswald. According to my tired. old eyes.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 12:00:31 AM
Let's cut to the chase, Mr O'Meara!

With respect to Agent Hosty's information that Mr Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. parade", you write-----------

And there we have it----------we cannot countenance Mr Oswald as Prayer Man because he needs to give a false alibi for the time of the shooting.

What makes you think Mr Oswald needs a false alibi for the time of the shooting? Where do you believe he actually was at the time in question?

And how do you explain the fact that those involved in his interrogation lied about what he claimed in custody? Why would they press mute on an alibi they knew to be false?

 Thumb1:

Yes Mr Ford, let's cut to the chase.
I think Oswald needs an alibi because I think he's involved in the assassination.
Do you think he's involved or not?
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 12:18:45 AM
Yes Mr Ford, let's cut to the chase.
I think Oswald needs an alibi because I think he's involved in the assassination.
Do you think he's involved or not?
 8)

I have yet to see a compelling argument for Oswald's involvement in the assassination.  Just a bunch of conjecture and handwaving.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
I have yet to see a compelling argument for Oswald's involvement in the assassination.  Just a bunch of conjecture and handwaving.
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor, the very floor multiple witnesses state shots were fired from (Williams and co.).
That isn't a compelling argument Oswald was involved?
Or is it a compelling argument Oswald was set up?
Or does it mean nothing?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:23:25 AM
If he was always going to be the Patsy, those running the show couldn't have him just running around

Why assume Mr Oswald was being set up as the sixth floor shooter? If he wasn't, then it didn't much matter where he was going to be at the time of the shooting!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:33:44 AM
Yes Mr Ford, let's cut to the chase.
I think Oswald needs an alibi because I think he's involved in the assassination.

Well, you think Mr Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr Jack Dougherty are also involved in the assassination. Did they need a fake alibi too?

Quote
Do you think he's involved or not?
 8)

I think he was framed for involvement, though I cannot altogether rule out his having been a knowing participant.

Now your turn, Mr O'Meara: Where do you think Mr Oswald was at the time of the shooting?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 10:39:50 AM
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor, the very floor multiple witnesses state shots were fired from (Williams and co.).

"Williams and co."? But you've been telling us Mr Williams was in on the conspiracy. Now he's a credible witness against Mr Oswald?  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 13, 2020, 10:41:35 AM
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor, the very floor multiple witnesses state shots were fired from (Williams and co.).
That isn't a compelling argument Oswald was involved?
Or is it a compelling argument Oswald was set up?
Or does it mean nothing?

Lt Day claims that he found a palm print on the rifle on Friday evening. The FBI, who examined the rifle within 24 hours after to murder, could find no trace of any kind of print on the rifle, so if Day had lifted a print, it would have been a 100% perfect lift, eliminating any possible remanence, which is highly unusual. Day didn't produce the palm print on an evidence card until November 26, thus reducing it's evidentary value to next to nothing.

So, no, it isn't a compelling argument that Oswald was involved.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 13, 2020, 03:44:06 PM
He was going down to the first floor, to check out the "commotion" downstairs.

Now you're getting it... and to go downstairs (meaning outside) he had to leave the building at the front door and go down the stairs.

He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated.

Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor.

Either way according to his account he was descending from an even a higher floor

Well, ain't that a shame... You were doing so well, and now you've gone and spoil it. There is nothing in Oswald's (or rather Holmes') account that confirms he was descending from a higher floor.

LHO makes the same reference to encountering Truly and Baker as do Truly and Baker. Just a different location but he was definitely in the building during the assassination.

Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. Thumb1:

Weidmann: "Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. "


Congratulations, this is a first Martin. Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements, etc., but this time you are right LHO was in the building during the assassination. The interesting part is your posts show every indication that you weren't even tracking the discussion. You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 13, 2020, 05:10:24 PM
Weidmann: "Wow, you've cracked the case.... You are right, Oswald was indeed guilty of being inside the building during the assassination. "


Congratulations, this is a first Martin. Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements, etc., but this time you are right LHO was in the building during the assassination. The interesting part is your posts show every indication that you weren't even tracking the discussion. You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

The sarcasm of my remark went straight over your head, didn't it?

Btw, do you need reminding that the encounter with Baker and Truly (near the front door) took place after and not during the assassination?


Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements,

Show me one time where I made up my own times (whatever that means) or a witness statement! I bet know you can't.

You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

Just a strongly as I feel for everything there isn't credible or sufficient evidence for, like - for instance - Oswald being any higher than on the 2nd floor when the shots were fired.

I'm not exactly sure what you hope to achieve by these "drive-by" posts, but I do understand why you are doing it. It's far easier to do, and maybe score some minor point to satisfy your ego, than have a proper discussion based on facts and evidence, isn't it?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 07:22:01 PM
Oswald's palm print found on a rifle hid on the 6th floor,

No, a partial palmprint was found on an index card that arrived a week later.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 07:27:45 PM
Btw, do you need reminding that the encounter with Baker and Truly (near the front door) took place after and not during the assassination?

Besides, the reporter didn't say anything about "during the assassination" in the first place.

Is there any possibility that prayer-blob is on the other side of the glass?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 08:36:39 PM
Fun fact, friends, which I came across here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/page/87/

Back in 2013, when the Prayer Man issue first came to the fore, our very own Mr Steve Barber took one look at him and identified him as..... Mr Billy Lovelady!  :D

Mr Barber was, of course, quite right: Prayer Man does look like he could well be Mr Billy Lovelady--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/PkZGC6P.jpg)

Which-------logically enough--------means he looks like he could well be someone who looked like Mr Billy Lovelady. (I don't imagine Mr Barber wanted to go there though!  :D )

Which brings us back to the the ridiculous 'shadow' that falls down the actual Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/pB1TANt.jpg)

As we know, Mr Lovelady is nowhere near the natural shadow cast by the front column on the west side of the entranceway. The 'shadow' obscuring much of the right side of his body is therefore a natural impossibility. It has been added to the film.

So---------------what did the people who added this shadow want to hide?

I have suggested: the presence of key witness Ms Carolyn Arnold.

But here's another possible explanation:

1. The original Wiegman film showed Mr Lovelady wearing his shirt sleeves rolled down
2. The Darnell film------------which was already out in circulation in the public sphere and so couldn't be messed with--------------showed a man resembling two male Depository employees = a man with his sleeves rolled up, standing on his own near the west wall of the entranceway (=the man we know as Prayer Man)
3. The 'investigating' authorities knew that this man could not be Mr Lovelady; in fact they knew he was none other than Mr Oswald (the suspect who had clearly stated that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade)
4. There was only one thing for it: to take out insurance cover for the day someone noticed sleeves-rolled-up-man and said 'Hey, maybe that's Oswald!': turn Mr Lovelady into a credible candidate for sleeves-rolled-up-man (i.e. Prayer Man) by covering up his right arm in the Wiegman film (and getting him to pretend he had worn a short-sleeved shirt that day)
5. Unfortunately, those behind this scam could not have known that researchers of the future would have access to digital technology and so would be able to bring out sufficient detail from the Wiegman frames to establish that sleeves-rolled-up-man in Darnell is already there in Wiegman ------------- and so cannot be Mr Lovelady! Nor could they predict the emergence of the Hughes and Martin films showing Mr Lovelady in his long-sleeved red-black plaid shirt!
6. Fortunately, the very fact of an impossible shadow falling down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman proves the intense anxiety of the 'investigating' authorities to make the front steps safe by hiding something that was there------------and therefore all on its own obliterates the nervous, incoherent assurances from Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps that, with regard to the Oswald-Out-Front issue, there is 'nothing to see here'. They couldn't be more right------------and more wrong!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 10:10:38 PM
Pauline Sanders:

"At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the Presidential Motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository building at about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance.  I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others."

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 10:33:16 PM
Except for the small detail that neither Lovelady nor Shelley is there standing next to prayer-blob.  But by all means, throw your lot in with the banned guy with 784 falsehoods and fabrications.
So what do you think he means? Shelley and Lovelady aren't stood next to each other either.
Because there is no-one between Lovelady and Stanton he is quite right to say she was standing next to him. He could hardly say that if she was by the west wall of the entranceway.
It's also interesting to note what Stanton has to say in her 3/18/64 FBI statement:
"When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley...and Billy Lovelady... I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

Again, Stanton has herself, Lovelady and Shelley together. More importantly, once the Presidential limo has passed the front of the building she can no longer see it.
Why?
Because she's in the west corner of the entranceway sparking up a cjgarette!
The two closest people to Stanton on the top step are Lovelady and Shelley.
(I wonder what brand she smokes)
 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 11:00:22 PM
So what do you think he means? Shelley and Lovelady aren't stood next to each other either.

Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either.

Quote
Because there is no-one between Lovelady and Stanton he is quite right to say she was standing next to him. He could hardly say that if she was by the west wall of the entranceway.

He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway).

Quote
Again, Stanton has herself, Lovelady and Shelley together.

Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 13, 2020, 11:11:19 PM
Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either.

He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway).

Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate.

"Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either."

You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?

"He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway)."

That has no bearing on the point I'm making. (wouldn't she be in Altgens 6)

"Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate."

Nice flip flop. A second ago no-one was standing next to prayer-blob as if it was some vast expanse of real estate, now everyone's together.
The two closest people to prayer-blob are Lovelady and Shelley. Lovelady confirms she was over by the right (west) side. Stanton can't see the motorcade as soon as it passes the front of the building.
Stanton is prayer-blob  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 13, 2020, 11:29:35 PM
It's also interesting to note what Stanton has to say in her 3/18/64 FBI statement:
"When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley...and Billy Lovelady... I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

It's also interesting to note what Mr Joe Molina has to say in his 3/25/64 FBI statement:
"Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots."

It's also interesting to note what Mr Otis Williams has to say in his 3/19/64 FBI statement:
"Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm St embankment I heard three loud blasts."

As soon as you have finished driving yourself to distraction trying to make Prayer Man an obese woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a dark wig in a professional situation, you can move on to proclaiming with that curious Doylesque certainty of yours that Prayer Man is Mr Molina. When that falls to pieces, you will no doubt pivot to pinning the Prayer Man identity on Mr Williams. When that blows up in your face you will authoritatively inform us that Prayer Man is obviously the ice-cold gun-toting conspirator Mr Jack Dougherty----------who is fiendishly wearing a dress in a professional situation...

Go away for a while, Mr O'Meara, and rest those tired eyes and that addled Doylesque mind!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2020, 11:50:41 PM
You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?

Why should I?

PS. what fat chap?

Quote
That has no bearing on the point I'm making. (wouldn't she be in Altgens 6)

Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground.

Quote
Nice flip flop. A second ago no-one was standing next to prayer-blob as if it was some vast expanse of real estate, now everyone's together.

Are you claiming that there's no difference between "next to" and "standing with"?

Quote
The two closest people to prayer-blob are Lovelady and Shelley.

I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk.

Quote
Lovelady confirms she was over by the right (west) side.

No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 14, 2020, 03:33:33 PM
The sarcasm of my remark went straight over your head, didn't it?

Btw, do you need reminding that the encounter with Baker and Truly (near the front door) took place after and not during the assassination?


Usually you are off in a fantasy world making up your own times, witness statements,

Show me one time where I made up my own times (whatever that means) or a witness statement! I bet know you can't.

You must feel very strongly about LHO not being Prayer Man.

Just a strongly as I feel for everything there isn't credible or sufficient evidence for, like - for instance - Oswald being any higher than on the 2nd floor when the shots were fired.

I'm not exactly sure what you hope to achieve by these "drive-by" posts, but I do understand why you are doing it. It's far easier to do, and maybe score some minor point to satisfy your ego, than have a proper discussion based on facts and evidence, isn't it?

You weren't being sarcastic. Here is your beliefs from the Martin Weidmann --Adams and Styles Timeline.
The Martin Weidmann Assassination Timeline

Oswald arrives at the second floor lunch room where he meets Baker and Truly after descending from upstairs,

12:30:30
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door

12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom

etc...........


----------

Weidmann: "Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor."

This is all you. How about what you made up right here. Frontdoors of the second floor?

Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Where does it say the "front doors of the second floor"?

Do you just post whatever ridiculous thing pops into your head?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 14, 2020, 04:32:58 PM
He either encountered Baker and Truly on the second floor as they state or the first floor as LHO stated.

... and as Mr Billy Lovelady stated to Mr James Jarman shortly after the assassination

... and as DPD themselves stated later that same day!

(https://i.imgur.com/7QVSFph.jpg)

I guess Mr Oswald must have had someone feeding him highly specific information from the outside world while he was in custody!  :D

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 14, 2020, 05:51:43 PM
You weren't being sarcastic.

It is always hilarious when some ignorant clown thinks he knows better than me what my intend was in writing something.

Thanks for the laugh and confirming that my sarcasm did indeed go way over your head.

Quote

Here is your beliefs from the Martin Weidmann --Adams and Styles Timeline.
The Martin Weidmann Assassination Timeline

Oswald arrives at the second floor lunch room where he meets Baker and Truly after descending from upstairs,

12:30:30
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door

12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom

etc...........


----------

You really aren't getting any of this, are you now?

First of all it is not my "beliefs" and it most certainly isn't "the Martin Weidmann Assassination timeline". This may be somewhat difficult for you to understand, but it was an attempt to reconcile known testimony in such a way that it would result in a plausible timeline. The whole thing was a theoretical exercise, nothing more and nothing less, which you apparently also failed to notice or understand. Unlike you, I am able to look at other people's point of view and work with them despite the fact that I do not agree with them.

In this particular case, the assumption, for the sake of argument, was that Oswald did in fact come down from the 6th floor (which I actually do not believe he ever did), to see if it was physically possible for him, or anybody else, to come down the stairs just after Adams and Styles without running into them and with enough time to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom. The timeline showed that it was theoretically possible that Adams and Styles were indeed on the stairs in front of Oswald and that it was physically impossible for Adams to have seen Shelley and Loveday as she came of the stairs.

The mere fact that you only quote selectively from the timeline exposes your dishonesty. It's either that, or you are simply too dumb to comprehend any of this.

Quote
Weidmann: "Oswald never stated that. According to Holmes he said he encountered Baker and Truly near the frontdoors on the second floor."

This is all you. How about what you made up right here. Frontdoors of the second floor?

I still stand by the comment that Oswald never stated that he came down from any higher than the 2nd floor. I also subscribe 100% to the fact that Holmes said that Oswald encountered Baker and Truly near the front doors.

There is nothing made up. You are comparing apples and oranges.... A theoretical exercise on the one hand with a factual statement of mine on the other. Again, it's either complete dishonesty on your part or massive ignorance.

Quote
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Where does it say the "front doors of the second floor"?


More stupidity on display for all to see!

Please tell us all, when Holmes says : "He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door" what other front door is there at the TSBD, except the one leading to Elm Street on the 2nd floor?

And through which door did Baker and Truly enter the building? .... Wanna think about a bit about this or have you already figured out that it was the front door on the Elm Street side of the building?

For anybody with a functional brain, this is an easy one to figure out.... For you, not so easy, it seems.

Quote
Do you just post whatever ridiculous thing pops into your head?

No, but as proven by your post, you most certainly do.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 14, 2020, 10:29:59 PM
Why should I?

PS. what fat chap?

Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground.

Are you claiming that there's no difference between "next to" and "standing with"?

I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk.

No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle.

"Why should I?

PS. what fat chap?"


In a previous post you said: "Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either."

I thought Altgens 6 gave us a pretty good indication where he was stood at the time of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3qL2j2G/TSBD-crowd-ID-AMolina-BWilliams-CDean-DReese-EShelley-FLovelady-GJones.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I thought you were saying you doubted the guy who is supposed to be Shelley, stood just behind Lovelady, wasn't Shelley at all. I've always thought this guy seems a bit rounder than the very angular Shelley but everyone seems to agree that's who he is. If you do think it's Shelley I'm not sure what you're talking about.

"Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground."

Firstly, it made no difference to the point I was making, nevertheless you're just plain wrong:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L4gzK07Z/TSBD-steps-empty.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Look at the frame holding the glass of the front entrance. On the right-hand side is a strut that runs from top to bottom. If you look at the top picture with people on the steps you can see this strut running down through Molina's arm. A large section of the east wall is visible. IMO 8)

"I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk."

At the time of the shooting?
Wrong

"No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle."

I did read it again. Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was "standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

(https://i.postimg.cc/pV7yxW82/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In this Towner frame we see Lovelady stood to the far right against the wall of the entranceway as the Presidential limo turns towards him. It is at this time he states Stanton was stood next to him:

"At this time (when he was stood to the far right against the wall of the entranceway) I recall that William H Shelley...and Mrs Sarah Stanton...were standing next to me"
What exactly am I missing John?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 02:13:38 AM
Question for Mr James Hackerott!

Mr Hackerott, in this--------------your first sketch based on your viewing of Prayer Man in the Darnell Film at the Sixth Floor Museum---------------you seem to have written the letters 'BL':

(https://i.imgur.com/nKuua7i.jpg)

Do these stand for 'Billy Lovelady'?

Thank you?  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 02:14:49 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/pV7yxW82/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In this Towner frame we see Lovelady stood to the far right against the wall of the entranceway as the Presidential limo turns towards him. It is at this time he states Stanton was stood next to him:

Mr O'Meara doesn't know how to post images. Another thing he has in common with Mr Doyle!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 15, 2020, 02:22:54 AM
Mr O'Meara doesn't know how to post images. Another thing he has in common with Mr Doyle!
My bad.
Hughes frame.
i notice that's all you've picked up on. Shied away from the point being made haven't you.
What a shock.
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 15, 2020, 03:39:38 AM
My bad.
Hughes frame.
i notice that's all you've picked up on. Shied away from the point being made haven't you.
What a shock.

I see images in your post
You have nothing to apologize for.

I use postimages.org as well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NLhnnvFp/post-images-here.png)
1) Upload your image

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHXcFgNM/choose-direct-link.png)
2) Choose Direct Link'.. you'll get rid of the extraneous code

3) Use the image function here

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5wZY3G9/dox2.jpg)
4) Result
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 15, 2020, 06:17:54 AM
Question for Mr James Hackerott!

Mr Hackerott, in this--------------your first sketch based on your viewing of Prayer Man in the Darnell Film at the Sixth Floor Museum---------------you seem to have written the letters 'BL':

(https://i.imgur.com/nKuua7i.jpg)

Do these stand for 'Billy Lovelady'?

Thank you?  Thumb1:
Yes, I believe that is Billy Lovelady at that position. I think that neither Lovelady, or Shelly, are walking down the Elm extension in the Mal Couch clips.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 15, 2020, 07:13:00 AM
I thought you were saying you doubted the guy who is supposed to be Shelley, stood just behind Lovelady, wasn't Shelley at all.

I don’t know why you would think I said that.

Quote
I've always thought this guy seems a bit rounder than the very angular Shelley but everyone seems to agree that's who he is.

You mean the chin and necktie? For what reasons does “everybody” think this must be Shelley?

I’m not sure how that helps us locate Stanton anyway.

Quote
"Half of the entryway is blocked by secret service agents in the foreground."

Firstly, it made no difference to the point I was making,

Sure it does, because you’re making the Doyle-esque argument that if you can’t positively identify Stanton on the right side of the entryway in Altgens, then she must be prayer-blob.

Quote
Look at the frame holding the glass of the front entrance. On the right-hand side is a strut that runs from top to bottom. If you look at the top picture with people on the steps you can see this strut running down through Molina's arm. A large section of the east wall is visible. IMO 8)

I’m not sure who you are assuming Molina is either, but I genuinely don’t know where you are seeing the east wall in Altgens.

Quote
"I thought you placed Shelley out on the sidewalk."

At the time of the shooting?
Wrong

No, at the time of the Darnell clip.  You don’t see prayer-blob in Altgens. So what difference does it make if Stanton was “with” Shelley earlier? If Shelley moved then so could prayer-blob, and so could Stanton.

Quote
"No, read it again.  You are as bad as Doyle."

I did read it again. Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was "standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

Yes, but he didn’t say on what side of him Stanton was. Especially not that she was behind him and even further to the right.

And since Sanders places herself on the east side with Stanton also next to her, that rules out the prayer-blob spot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 11:02:15 AM
Yes, I believe that is Billy Lovelady at that position. I think that neither Lovelady, or Shelly, are walking down the Elm extension in the Mel Couch clips.

Many thanks, Mr Hackerott---------and I agree with you!  Thumb1:

Was there greater detail in the 6FM version of Darnell that strengthened your belief that that this is indeed Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.imgur.com/GDSxDPJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2020, 11:10:01 AM
My bad.
Hughes frame.

Nope, still don't see any image.

Quote
i notice that's all you've picked up on. Shied away from the point being made haven't you.
What a shock.
 8)

The suddenness with which you turned into an overt Doyle tribute act is intriguing, Mr O'Meara.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 15, 2020, 06:50:57 PM
Yes, I believe that is Billy Lovelady at that position. I think that neither Lovelady, or Shelly, are walking down the Elm extension in the Mel Couch clips.

So Lovelady was a burn victim with a giant head
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 15, 2020, 10:02:34 PM
Many thanks, Mr Hackerott---------and I agree with you!  Thumb1:

Was there greater detail in the 6FM version of Darnell that strengthened your belief that that this is indeed Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.imgur.com/GDSxDPJ.jpg)

I doubt the increased clarity would make the ID a 100% certainty. But that was never on my mind while making the sketches. The ID as Lovelady was speculated by others, I believe.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 15, 2020, 10:05:18 PM
So Lovelady was a burn victim with a giant head

Well, a blur victim for sure.  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 01:29:55 AM
Nope, still don't see any image.

The suddenness with which you turned into an overt Doyle tribute act is intriguing, Mr O'Meara.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcVHMP3C/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Have you got your glasses on.

Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 01:32:40 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcVHMP3C/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Have you got your glasses on.

Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

Have you got your glasses on.

To see that picture one would need a microscope.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 02:23:45 AM
Have you got your glasses on.

To see that picture one would need a microscope.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMC8fLhf/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Even my tired old eyes can make this out.
What about yours?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 02:39:15 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMC8fLhf/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Even my tired old eyes can make this out.
What about yours?

I think I'm seeing a person with a red shirt and a white T shirt underneath at the location where Prayerman was supposed to be. However, I'm also seeing a blue car, which I believe could be Kennedy's limo, passing by the stairs.

But my eyes are not as good as the once were, so I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 02:42:42 AM
I think I'm seeing a person with a red shirt and a white T shirt underneath at the location where Prayerman was supposed to be. However, I'm also seeing a blue car, which I believe could be Kennedy's limo, passing by the stairs.

But my eyes are not as good as the once were, so I could be wrong.

So you agree it's Lovelady?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 01:19:09 PM
So you agree it's Lovelady?

I don't agree or disagree. I don't make judgement calls based on blurry pictures.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 16, 2020, 03:39:37 PM
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

Doyle!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 06:43:16 PM
I don't agree or disagree. I don't make judgement calls based on blurry pictures.
It's not a call based on a blurry photo.
There is corroborating photo/video evidence placing Lovelady in that area (Wiegman, Darnell, Altgens) and Lovelady's own testimonial evidence that he was stood at the far right of the entranceway as the motorcade passed by.

Can you make the ID now?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 16, 2020, 07:04:47 PM
It's not a call based on a blurry photo.
There is corroborating photo/video evidence placing Lovelady in that area (Wiegman, Darnell, Altgens) and Lovelady's own testimonial evidence that he was stood at the far right of the entranceway as the motorcade passed by.

Can you make the ID now?

No because there is not enough conclusive evidence.

There is sufficient evidence to conclude that Loveday was on or near the stairs to the front door of the TSBD at the time of the shooting but it's not enough to conclude that the person seen in the blurry picture and/or video is him or not.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 16, 2020, 07:07:13 PM
Lovelady's own testimonial evidence that he was stood at the far right of the entranceway as the motorcade passed by.

Mr O'Meara, why have you left out a key part of the quote (just like poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle used to do)?

----------------"standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

Is that what the Hughes frames show?

It's almost as though poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle himself is feeding you your Stanton material!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 16, 2020, 08:20:36 PM
Mr O'Meara, why have you left out a key part of the quote (just like poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle used to do)?

----------------"standing on the top step to the far right against the wall of the entranceway"

Is that what the Hughes frames show?

It's almost as though poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle himself is feeding you your Stanton material!

 :D
:D :D :D So you do agree that's Lovelady shown on the far right of the entranceway in the Hughes clip.
Lovelady then moves up to the top step in Altgens just seconds later. He is in the same position in the first Wiegman clip before moving down a step or two in the second Wiegman clip then back to his original position in Darnell.
So as the motorcade passes Lovelady moves to the top step. We have photo/video evidence that is the case.
At the time he does this he is saying Stanton is next to him.
It can only refer to the person in the position who you need to believe is Oswald.
It can't refer to anyone else.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xbhkCby/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTfVgFwJ/TSBD-crowd-ID-AMolina-BWilliams-CDean-DReese-EShelley-FLovelady-GJones.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4R9YddW/Shadow-Person-Gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxrjmxqT/Shadow-Person-ggod-copy-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Who else can Lovelady be referring to?
And remember, Stanton herself says that as soon as the motorcade passes the front of the building she can no longer see it. We can deduce from Altgens that the only person in such a position must be stood in the corner to Lovelady's right.
 8) 8) 8)

Who else can Lovelady be referring to?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 16, 2020, 10:33:16 PM
:D :D :D So you do agree that's Lovelady shown on the far right of the entranceway in the Hughes clip.
Lovelady then moves up to the top step in Altgens just seconds later.

If your understanding of angles went beyond Doyle levels, Mr O'Meara, you would understand that the Altgens photograph shows Mr Lovelady near the center railing.

Unfortunately, however, your level of understanding is weirdly coincident with the Doyle level of understanding, so you're just making a fool of yourself in exactly the same way Mr Doyle used to do before he was banned!  Thumb1:

Quote
And remember, Stanton herself says that as soon as the motorcade passes the front of the building she can no longer see it.

As did Messrs Molina and (Otis) Williams. But you have already had this pointed out to you and------------in true Doyle style----------ignore what's inconvenient to the crazy Doyle claim that Prayer Man is an obese woman wearing a dark wig in a professional situation.

Quote
We can deduce from Altgens that the only person in such a position must be stood in the corner to Lovelady's right.

Who's 'we' here, Mr O'Meara? You and Mr Doyle?

Look, Mr O'Meara, you played a good game initially, pretending to be interested in the whole Rowland-Williams-chicken thing. But once the word 'Stanton' passed your lips for the first time, you blew it--------------your sad obsession was revealed!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 17, 2020, 01:06:47 AM
If your understanding of angles went beyond Doyle levels, Mr O'Meara, you would understand that the Altgens photograph shows Mr Lovelady near the center railing.

Unfortunately, however, your level of understanding is weirdly coincident with the Doyle level of understanding, so you're just making a fool of yourself in exactly the same way Mr Doyle used to do before he was banned!  Thumb1:

As did Messrs Molina and (Otis) Williams. But you have already had this pointed out to you and------------in true Doyle style----------ignore what's inconvenient to the crazy Doyle claim that Prayer Man is an obese woman wearing a dark wig in a professional situation.

Who's 'we' here, Mr O'Meara? You and Mr Doyle?

Look, Mr O'Meara, you played a good game initially, pretending to be interested in the whole Rowland-Williams-chicken thing. But once the word 'Stanton' passed your lips for the first time, you blew it--------------your sad obsession was revealed!

 :D

As soon as the word 'Stanton' passed my lips your sad obsession was revealed (in truth it's always been there)

I know exactly where Lovelady is stood in Altgens but you seem to be unaware Altgens shows Molina looking at the Presidential limo and the only reason Williams can't see it is because he's looking the other way! Are you familiar with the photo in question?
Neither Williams nor Molina state they can't see the motorcade once it passes the front entrance, this is classic Ford fantasia.

Of the people stood on the top step only Stanton states she can't see the limo once it passes the front of the TSBD.

When Lovelady refers to Stanton he is referring to the object of your obsession, the blurry figure stood near the west corner
Who else could he be referring to Alan? Answer this question. 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2020, 10:40:52 AM
Neither Williams nor Molina state they can't see the motorcade once it passes the front entrance, this is classic Ford fantasia.

:D :D :D

More Doyle-style fabrication from the new Mr Doyle!

---------"Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots." (Mr Joe Molina, 3/25/64)

---------"Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm St embankment I heard three loud blasts." (Mr Otis Williams, 3/19/64)

How many more lies is the new Mr Doyle willing to tell in his Doyle-grade crazy effort to sell Prayer Man as an obese woman wearing a dark wig and smoking a cigarette?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 17, 2020, 07:44:42 PM
:D :D :D

More Doyle-style fabrication from the new Mr Doyle!

---------"Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots." (Mr Joe Molina, 3/25/64)

---------"Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm St embankment I heard three loud blasts." (Mr Otis Williams, 3/19/64)

How many more lies is the new Mr Doyle willing to tell in his Doyle-grade crazy effort to sell Prayer Man as an obese woman wearing a dark wig and smoking a cigarette?

Are you for real?
Neither of these is a statement saying they lost sight of the Presidential limo as soon as it passed the front entrance. William's statement is specifically saying he watched it until it went out of sight over the Elm St embankment! What are you thinking?

Look at the Altgens pic. Use your eyes. Both Molina and Williams can be clearly seen, meaning they have a view of the limo after it has passed the front entrance.
Are you that much of a PM zealot you can't see the obvious?

When Lovelady refers to Stanton he is referring to the object of your obsession, the blurry figure stood near the west corner
Who else could he be referring to Alan? For the third time, answer this question.
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2020, 08:14:21 PM
Are you for real?

Asks the new Mr Doyle, whose gaslighting nonsense is exactly the same as the old Mr Doyle's!  :D

Quote
Neither of these is a statement saying they lost sight of the Presidential limo as soon as it passed the front entrance. William's statement is specifically saying he watched it until it went out of sight over the Elm St embankment!

As usual, the new Mr Doyle leaves out the bit he doesn't like: "I heard three loud blasts"  :D

Quote
Look at the Altgens pic. Use your eyes. Both Molina and Williams can be clearly seen, meaning they have a view of the limo after it has passed the front entrance.

Again, the new Mr Doyle conveniently leaves out the three blasts each man says he heard!

And the new Mr Doyle acts like the Altgens photograph was taken from JFK's limousine!  :D

Now! Ms Stanton: "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time ."

Perhaps the new Mr Doyle can show us where Ms Stanton says why she could not see the President's car while hearing the three shots? As he ponders this question, the new Mr Doyle might find it helpful to look again at the Altgens photograph.

Quote
When Lovelady refers to Stanton he is referring to the object of your obsession, the blurry figure stood near the west corner
Who else could he be referring to Alan?

He could be referring to the person standing next to him in Altgens:

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)

Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:

'Several people saw me. That lady shading her eyes works here on the second floor.'"

Which lady shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph does the new Mr Doyle think Mr Lovelady is pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?

(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 17, 2020, 09:33:39 PM


He could be referring to the person standing next to him in Altgens:

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)



So you're identifying Sarah Stanton as THE MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT SHIELDING HIS EYES!!!
 :D :D :D
Utter quality.

You've obviously fallen off the edge and, unlike the old Mr Doyle, I won't be following you down whatever rabbit-hole your currently inhabiting.
#StantonisMolina
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2020, 10:45:44 PM
So you're identifying Sarah Stanton as THE MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT SHIELDING HIS EYES!!!
 :D :D :D
Utter quality.

You've obviously fallen off the edge and, unlike the old Mr Doyle, I won't be following you down whatever rabbit-hole your currently inhabiting.
#StantonisMolina
 8)

Curiously, the new Mr Doyle is every bit as illogical and ill-informed as the old Mr Doyle!

Mr Lovelady is showing Mr Bonafede in the Altgens photograph a lady shielding her eyes, and stating that she works on the second floor. So the new Mr Doyle should have no trouble finding this lady-from-the-second-floor-shielding-her-eyes in said Altgens photograph. After all, Mr Lovelady seems to have no trouble in doing so!

Embarrassed at not yet being able to find this lady in Altgens, the new Mr Doyle tells us with the old Doyle-esque certainty that the person shielding their eyes (marked by the green arrow) is a "MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT":

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)

How does the new Mr Doyle know this? Answer: He doesn't, he's just offering another Doyle-style 'Because I Say So!' claim...

Now! Mr Bill Shelley stated clearly that he is standing next to Mr Lovelady but is not visible in the Altgens photograph:

(https://i.imgur.com/3ROn4Tz.jpg)

This means that Mr Shelley must be just to Mr Lovelady's west.

From the elimination of Mr Shelley as one of the white men seen in Altgens we can conclude that the two white gentlemen (apart from Mr Lovelady) Altgens does show in the doorway are Mr Joe Molina (red arrow) and Mr Otis Williams (blue arrow)----------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ef2oeD5.jpg)

This further means that the person marked with green arrow-----------the person the new Mr Doyle assures us is a "MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT"-----------must in fact be a woman. If she is the woman from the second floor whom Mr Lovelady is recognizing, then she must be either Ms Pauline Sanders or Ms Sarah Stanton. Given his repeated recollection of Ms Stanton's presence in statements and testimony, she is by far the likelier candidate.

This would solve the new Mr Doyle's contrived little problem of Mr Lovelady's statement that Mr Shelley and Ms Stanton were next to him.

And it would leave the new Mr Doyle back at square one-------------as excruciatingly unable as everyone else on Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps to find a credible non-Oswaldian candidate for Prayer Man.  :D

If the new Mr Doyle disagrees with the above analysis, he is free to tell us which lady from the second floor shielding her eyes is Mr Lovelady pointing out to Mr Bonafede!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2020, 02:48:14 PM
Friends, I had previously discounted the possibility that this could be Ms Stanton----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ggauhci.jpg)

----------------because the forearms didn't look thick enough.

However! Looking again at the photograph we have of Ms Stanton, I noticed that the upper arms are very thick but the forearms not nearly so much------------

(https://i.imgur.com/rc3dSSG.jpg)

Something else worth bearing in mind:

Mr Lovelady, before ever seeing the Altgens photograph, only named one other person there on the steps:

"When the Pres. came by Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps..." (Affidavit, 11/22/63).

However, we know that one thing he was to notice in the Altgens photograph was the second-floor lady shielding her eyes. This must have triggered his recollection and prompted him to mention Ms Stanton as well as Mr Shelley in subsequent statements about who had been there with him / next to him on the steps. Because that was exactly what the Altgens photograph was showing him.

Possibly Significant Sidenote! Mr Lovelady mistakenly thinks that the Altgens photograph is showing him way over by the west wall of the entranceway, when we know he is actually near the center railing!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2020, 04:19:31 PM
As veterans of this Establishment will know, I sometimes find it useful to take an image we have all been staring at for years and defamiliarize it by giving it a horizontal flip. Striking details hitherto missed by our tired eyes can leap out!

Here's one such image-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/EO39Qr8.jpg)

-------------------and here it is flipped-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ziHkdav.jpg)

QUESTION!

Is Prayer Man slouching against the wall?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 19, 2020, 12:54:34 AM
Mr Lovelady, before ever seeing the Altgens photograph, only named one other person there on the steps:

"When the Pres. came by Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps..." (Affidavit, 11/22/63).

However, we know that one thing he was to notice in the Altgens photograph was the second-floor lady shielding her eyes. This must have triggered his recollection and prompted him to mention Ms Stanton as well as Mr Shelley in subsequent statements about who had been there with him / next to him on the steps. Because that was exactly what the Altgens photograph was showing him.

From Mr Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.


Again, Mr Lovelady is here working not so much off personal memory as off the Altgens photograph he has been quizzed about for months now.

Only for Mr Ball's (nervous?) interruption, he would finish his thought: and right behind me, Joe Molina. Because that's exactly what the Altgens photograph is showing him!

(https://i.imgur.com/Wd1RIBm.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 19, 2020, 01:11:43 AM
Now!

From Motorcycle Officer Marion L. Baker's WC testimony:

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


QUESTION!

Who on earth were the two white men seen on the first floor by Officer Baker?

I'll kick off with a double speculation-----------

1. Mr Jack Dougherty
2. Mr Bill Shelley

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 19, 2020, 04:14:17 PM

Lee claimed that he went outside to watch the parade. There is a guy who looks him on the front steps in two different films. Quite a coincidence.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 07:53:33 PM
Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

False.  You're the one who's equating "next to" to mean "to the right".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 07:55:59 PM
It's almost as though poor lost fanatical Mr Doyle himself is feeding you your Stanton material!

Keep in mind that this is the guy who finds Tommy Graves' squint fests to be "highly compelling".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 08:05:15 PM
I know exactly where Lovelady is stood in Altgens but you seem to be unaware Altgens shows Molina looking at the Presidential limo and the only reason Williams can't see it is because he's looking the other way!

This just keeps getting better!  Not only do you know exactly who could see what (or not) better than they do, but you also know the reasons why.  Where is Otis Williams in Altgens and how do you know where he's looking?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Now! Ms Stanton: "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time ."

Perhaps the new Mr Doyle can show us where Ms Stanton says why she could not see the President's car while hearing the three shots? As he ponders this question, the new Mr Doyle might find it helpful to look again at the Altgens photograph.

Besides that, if she heard 3 shots after the President's car passed the front of the building, then where does that place the timing of the first shot?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 08:09:30 PM
So you're identifying Sarah Stanton as THE MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT SHIELDING HIS EYES!!!

I'll bite.  How do you know that's a man?  Or Molina?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 19, 2020, 08:47:43 PM
The person shielding his eyes is wearing a tie. How many women wore ties in 1963?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 09:07:03 PM
The person shielding his eyes is wearing a tie. How many women wore ties in 1963?

Where?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 19, 2020, 09:40:32 PM
False.  You're the one who's equating "next to" to mean "to the right".
Wrong. I'm equating "next to" as in "close proximity to"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 19, 2020, 09:50:45 PM
Where?
:D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 19, 2020, 09:58:06 PM
This just keeps getting better!  Not only do you know exactly who could see what (or not) better than they do, but you also know the reasons why.  Where is Otis Williams in Altgens and how do you know where he's looking?
As usual, the twisting manipulation of words. I've actually kind of missed it.
I'm clearly talking about the direction in which people are looking, not what they can see.
I "also know the reasons why"?? You're usual garbage.

Where is Otis Williams?
At the time the motorcade passed the TSBD Williams "was standing on the top step against the railing" [3/19/64]
At the time of the assassination Williams was 64 and looked like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR3d05SX/williams-otis.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Note the swept back hair, grey at the sides, darker on top and the glasses with thick, black arms.
So we're looking for an elderly gent who looks like the photo on the top step next to the railing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/15TmTKDL/Williams-Otis-TSBD-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
To help you out he's been circled in red. Can you see which way he's looking or do you need help with that?
From the camera's point of view he's stood just in front of the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D), as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2020, 11:49:18 PM
Wrong. I'm equating "next to" as in "close proximity to"

Well then your claim that "a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way" is just flat out false.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 19, 2020, 11:57:09 PM
the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D), as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day

 :D

(https://i.imgur.com/88xiddi.jpg)

Not since the sad, bad and mad old days of the first Mr Doyle have we seen such an out-of-control fantasist on this forum. Next this guy will be telling us he can see buttons on this 'MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT'!  :D

Of course, the reason the new Mr Doyle is resorting to this Doyle-style gaslighting nonsense is his intense frustration and embarrassment at not being able to

-----------get around Mr Shelley's own statement about his non-visibility in Altgens
-----------get around Mr Lovelady's statement about the lady from the second floor shielding her eyes in Altgens
-----------explain away the statements of Messrs Joe Molina and Otis Williams about the limousine disappearing from view
-----------offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 19, 2020, 11:59:34 PM
Well then your claim that "a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way" is just flat out false.
Lovelady puts himself over by the far right wall of the entranceway and has Stanton in close proximity to himself. How is it false?
And no thanks for pointing out Williams for you. Typical  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 12:00:15 AM
The person shielding his eyes is wearing a tie. How many women wore ties in 1963?

You see a tie on this person, Mr Mitcham? Really?

(https://i.imgur.com/BNJukb3.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2020, 12:07:42 AM
As usual, the twisting manipulation of words. I've actually kind of missed it.
I'm clearly talking about the direction in which people are looking, not what they can see.
I "also know the reasons why"?? You're usual garbage.

That's what you indicated.  You somehow know that "Altgens shows Molina looking at the Presidential limo" and that "the only reason Williams can't see it is because he's looking the other way".  Then you claim that Stanton was blocked from seeing the limo after it passed because of where she was standing (even though she never said that).  Your mindreading skills are almost as fancy as Doyle's.

Quote
To help you out he's been circled in red. Can you see which way he's looking or do you need help with that?

Again with the condescension substituting for evidence.  I have not missed that.  You're using the patented Graves technique of deciding who you think an indistinct blob is, and then stating it as a fact.  Maybe you could start by pointing out where you even see a face in that mess, much less Otis Williams looking in a certain direction.

Quote
From the camera's point of view he's stood just in front of the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D),

I haven't identified anyone as Sarah Stanton. 

Quote
as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day
 8)

"white shirt and black trousers".  "obese arms". "elderly gent".  "plaid skirt". LOL.  Other than your fertile imagination, tell me how you know what colors Williams or Stanton were even wearing that day?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2020, 12:11:05 AM
Lovelady puts himself over by the far right wall of the entranceway and has Stanton in close proximity to himself. How is it false?

Because you're assuming without evidence that she was between Lovelady and the wall.  Otherwise she wouldn't be "over by the far right wall".

Quote
And no thanks for pointing out Williams for you. Typical  ;)

Thanks for circling a blob and naming it?  No thanks.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 12:14:28 AM
Lee claimed that he went outside to watch the parade. There is a guy who looks him on the front steps in two different films. Quite a coincidence.

Fred

Quite right, Mr Clements!  Thumb1:

Also!

Mr Oswald claimed he had an encounter with an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance right after the shooting; the DPD told the press 11/22/63 that Mr Oswald had an encounter with an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance right after the shooting. Quite a coincidence!

Mr Oswald claimed he visited the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade's arrival; Ms Carolyn Arnold recalled seeing Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade's arrival. Quite a coincidence!

Back in 2013, the Prayer Man people, after close study of the interrogation reports, deduced that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone to the second-floor lunchroom for a Coca-Cola before the motorcade, gone back down to the first floor and then gone out to see the motorcade; in 2019 the Hosty draft report came to light stating in the clearest English that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone to the second-floor lunchroom for a Coca-Cola before the motorcade, gone back down to the first floor and then gone "out to watch P. parade". Quite a confirmation!

No one has yet been able to offer an innocent explanation for the impossible 'shadow' running down Mr Billy Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film. Quite a quandary!

After 7 years of trying, Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps still cannot offer a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man. Quite a calamity!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 20, 2020, 10:06:18 AM

Good points, Mr Ford. Also it is mentioned on other sites that Oswald's own wife Marina identified the person on the steps as her late husband. Sometime in 2018.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 20, 2020, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from Mr Ford, You see a tie on this person Mr Mitcham, really?"

Yep shown in red, and arrowed.
https://i.postimg.cc/zBsGGm8W/doorway2.jpg

(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 02:07:51 PM
Quote from Mr Ford, You see a tie on this person Mr Mitcham, really?"

Yep shown in red, and arrowed.
https://i.postimg.cc/zBsGGm8W/doorway2.jpg

(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)

Link not working for me, Mr Mitcham! Could you please re-post?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 20, 2020, 05:42:16 PM
Link not working for me, Mr Mitcham! Could you please re-post?

(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2020, 06:30:07 PM
Quote from Mr Ford, You see a tie on this person Mr Mitcham, really?"

Yep shown in red, and arrowed.

What, is he standing diagonally?   :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 20, 2020, 06:50:40 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q/doorway2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLC0mV8Q)

Am still not seeing an image, Mr Mitcham. It may be a firewall issue for me, in which case I apologize!

Can you help me out here? Are you actually claiming to see a tie on the individual standing directly under the arrow here? I.e. the individual with two hands shielding their eyes, as opposed to the individual lower down shielding his eyes with one hand (and the other hand across his chest)??

(https://i.imgur.com/3xvIAA0.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 21, 2020, 08:50:06 AM
Am still not seeing an image, Mr Mitcham. It may be a firewall issue for me, in which case I apologize!

Can you help me out here? Are you actually claiming to see a tie on the individual standing directly under the arrow here? I.e. the individual with two hands shielding their eyes, as opposed to the individual lower down shielding his eyes with one hand (and the other hand across his chest)??

(https://i.imgur.com/3xvIAA0.jpg)

 Thumb1:

The lower one. with his left hand across his chest. However, the one with two hands shielding his eyes has the upper torso shape of a guy not a woman.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 21, 2020, 11:01:30 AM
The lower one. with his left hand across his chest. However, the one with two hands shielding his eyes has the upper torso shape of a guy not a woman.

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/ (http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/)

This guy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 21, 2020, 11:31:08 AM
The lower one. with his left hand across his chest. However, the one with two hands shielding his eyes has the upper torso shape of a guy not a woman.

Thanks for clarifying, Mr Mitcham!  Thumb1:

So------------no tie visible on the person I marked with a green arrow, i.e. the person we were talking about in the first place.

If you think that person--------the one with two hands shielding their eyes---------is a man, which man do you think it could possibly be?

Remember: Mr Shelley has told us he's not in the photograph. Which leaves you with three men visible but only two men (Messrs Molina and Williams) to identify them with...

(https://i.imgur.com/2ZGW5sr.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 21, 2020, 02:28:12 PM
As usual, the twisting manipulation of words. I've actually kind of missed it.
I'm clearly talking about the direction in which people are looking, not what they can see.
I "also know the reasons why"?? You're usual garbage.

Where is Otis Williams?
At the time the motorcade passed the TSBD Williams "was standing on the top step against the railing" [3/19/64]
At the time of the assassination Williams was 64 and looked like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR3d05SX/williams-otis.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Note the swept back hair, grey at the sides, darker on top and the glasses with thick, black arms.
So we're looking for an elderly gent who looks like the photo on the top step next to the railing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/15TmTKDL/Williams-Otis-TSBD-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
To help you out he's been circled in red. Can you see which way he's looking or do you need help with that?
From the camera's point of view he's stood just in front of the man you and Alan are identifying as Sarah Stanton (wow :D), as she sports the white shirt and black trousers traditionally worn by female office workers of the day
 8)

Hopefully, for the sake of his wife, Otis 'Big Pants' Williams belt line didn't reach his armpits before she passed away.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 21, 2020, 09:35:47 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Mr Mitcham!  Thumb1:

So------------no tie visible on the person I marked with a green arrow, i.e. the person we were talking about in the first place.

If you think that person--------the one with two hands shielding their eyes---------is a man, which man do you think it could possibly be?

Remember: Mr Shelley has told us he's not in the photograph. Which leaves you with three men visible but only two men (Messrs Molina and Williams) to identify them with...

(https://i.imgur.com/2ZGW5sr.jpg)
Apologies if you were discussing the green arrowed man as you said the one shielding his eyes. As far as the green arrow man, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a man, but which one I don't know.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 21, 2020, 09:48:02 PM
Apologies if you were discussing the green arrowed man as you said the one shielding his eyes.

Crossed lines of communication, Mr Mitcham, no harm done!  Thumb1:

Quote
As far as the green arrow man, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a man, but which one I don't know.

So who's the woman from the second floor shielding her eyes whom Mr Lovelady pointed out in Altgens to Mr Dom Bonafede?

And how can two white men (Messrs Molina and Williams) explain what you are saying is three white men (other than Mr Lovelady) seen in the doorway in Altgens?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 22, 2020, 01:47:27 AM
Crossed lines of communication, Mr Mitcham, no harm done!  Thumb1:

So who's the woman from the second floor shielding her eyes whom Mr Lovelady pointed out in Altgens to Mr Dom Bonafede?

And how can two white men (Messrs Molina and Williams) explain what you are saying is three white men (other than Mr Lovelady) seen in the doorway in Altgens?

Sorry Alan, I haven’t been following this thread closely enough. Could you point to the evidence why Shelley cannot be one of the three? I saw you said he claimed not to be in Altgens.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 22, 2020, 01:54:28 AM
Sorry Alan, I haven’t been following this thread closely enough. Could you point to the evidence why Shelley cannot be one of the three? I saw you said he claimed not to be in Altgens.

Of course, Mr Crow!

(https://i.imgur.com/3ROn4Tz.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 22, 2020, 02:25:22 AM
Sorry Alan, I haven’t been following this thread closely enough. Could you point to the evidence why Shelley cannot be one of the three? I saw you said he claimed not to be in Altgens.
As I'm sure you know, Shelley is the most "witnessed" person on the TSBD steps around the time of the assassination and places himself  " Just outside the glass doors there.", as seen in Altgens 6.
This is the picture he was shown from "Four Dark Days in History":

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvsg2hT0/Altgens-in-4-dark-days.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He confirms he was stood next to Lovelady at the time but is there any real mystery as to why he couldn't ID himself in the picture?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 22, 2020, 11:50:39 AM
As I'm sure you know, Shelley is the most "witnessed" person on the TSBD steps around the time of the assassination and places himself  " Just outside the glass doors there.", as seen in Altgens 6.
This is the picture he was shown from "Four Dark Days in History":

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvsg2hT0/Altgens-in-4-dark-days.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He confirms he was stood next to Lovelady at the time but is there any real mystery as to why he couldn't ID himself in the picture?

 ::)

No, there is no mystery whatsoever: Mr Shelley knows where he was standing in relation to Mr Lovelady--------west of him--------and that's how he knows he was not in view of the camera.

If he had been standing where you------------in your desperate Doylesque effort to magic him into Mr Molina so you can magic Ms Stanton into Prayer Man--------------think you see him in Altgens, he would not be stating categorically that he was not in view of the camera.

Here's where Mr Frazier places Mr Shelley in his WC testimony: "standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there". And before you throw more nonsense at us by suggesting Mr Frazier might mean the east wall, he makes it clear he means the same wall Mr Lovelady was nearest to.

Here's what Mr Shelley himself says, in the March 64 document you love cherry-picking quotes from, about Mr Lovelady's position in relation to him: "seated on the entrance steps just in front of me". This, again, places Mr Shelley unequivocally on the west side of the entranceway. Whereas your Shelley-in-Altgens is on the east side. (So... you have transposed Ms Stanton from east to west and Mr Shelley from west to east. A classic double Doyle maneuver!)

Furthermore! Mr Lovelady-----------who, like Mr Shelley-----------will have seen the Altgens photograph many times by Jan 64, and who was very soon after the assassination shown an FBI blow-up of it, never once indicates that he can see, or thinks he can see, Mr Shelley in the photograph. He only mentions the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor. Again, the simple reason is: he, like Mr Shelley, knows that Mr Shelley is not in view of the camera.

Again I challenge you: show us the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor you think Mr Lovelady means!

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 22, 2020, 02:48:38 PM
:

So who's the woman from the second floor shielding her eyes whom Mr Lovelady pointed out in Altgens to Mr Dom Bonafede?



Who is this woman shielding her eyes?
https://i.postimg.cc/PrQ9GG5C/Doorway3.png (Yellow arrow)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 22, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
Who is this woman shielding her eyes?
https://i.postimg.cc/PrQ9GG5C/Doorway3.png (Yellow arrow)

Mr Mitcham, I'm darned if I can work out why I'm not seeing your images. :'( My apologies again!

If you are indicating this woman----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/XRPjs73.jpg)

----------------then that's Ms Madeleine Reese, who worked on the third floor so cannot be the woman Mr Lovelady means.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 23, 2020, 10:53:23 AM
Mr Mitcham, I'm darned if I can work out why I'm not seeing your images. :'( My apologies again!

If you are indicating this woman----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/XRPjs73.jpg)

----------------then that's Ms Madeleine Reese, who worked on the third floor so cannot be the woman Mr Lovelady means.

 Thumb1:

Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on August 23, 2020, 11:27:54 AM
Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?

All good here Ray.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 23, 2020, 12:36:00 PM
All good here Ray.  Thumb1:

Thanks for the reply, Colin.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 01:28:54 PM
::)

No, there is no mystery whatsoever: Mr Shelley knows where he was standing in relation to Mr Lovelady--------west of him--------and that's how he knows he was not in view of the camera.

As usual you have completely made something up out of thin air and presented it as a fact. Nowhere does Shelley state that he is stood west of Lovelady. If you have a quote for this please supply it. If you any quote that specifically puts Shelley to the right /west of Lovelady please provide it. 

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If he had been standing where you------------in your desperate Doylesque effort to magic him into Mr Molina so you can magic Ms Stanton into Prayer Man--------------think you see him in Altgens, he would not be stating categorically that he was not in view of the camera.


Once again I'm having to deal with something you've completely made up. Show where I have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway (Shelley) is Joe Molina. Joe Molina is the man in the white shirt, stood on the top landing/step, with both his arms raised as he shields his eyes. The same man you insist is Sarah Stanton (this will go down as the worst piece of analysis in the history of JFK research and is genuinely embarrassing).
Just to be clear where I stand on the Altgens 6 picture - the man nearest the glass door wearing a dark suit and tie whose face is half in shadow is Bill Shelley. The man stood to his right wearing the white shirt with both arms raised shielding his eyes is Joe Molina. The man stood one step below, slightly to Molina's right, is Otis Williams. Billy Lovelady, as I'm sure even you would agree, is the man stood to the left of these three men as we look at the pic.
Sarah Stanton is not shown in this picture.

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Here's where Mr Frazier places Mr Shelley in his WC testimony: "standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there". And before you throw more nonsense at us by suggesting Mr Frazier might mean the east wall, he makes it clear he means the same wall Mr Lovelady was nearest to.


The problem with Frazier's testimony is that it's not true:

Mr. BALL - You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL - About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?
Mr. FRAZIER - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER - O.K.
Mr. BALL - In the picture that would show you about there, would it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, was standing right in there.
Mr. BALL - Right in there?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.
Mr. BALL - There was a roof over your head, was there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Frazier places himself one step down and next to the central railing. He states he was stood there 'until the parade came by'. We know from Altgens this is not true. Frazier is not seen in the Wiegman film either. He shows up about 30 seconds after the assassination in Darnell (it's possible he stood there before the motorcade passed but I've not seen evidence for this). We have photographic/video evidence that Frazier's testimony concerning the time of the assassination is unreliable.

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Here's what Mr Shelley himself says, in the March 64 document you love cherry-picking quotes from, about Mr Lovelady's position in relation to him: "seated on the entrance steps just in front of me". This, again, places Mr Shelley unequivocally on the west side of the entranceway. Whereas your Shelley-in-Altgens is on the east side. (So... you have transposed Ms Stanton from east to west and Mr Shelley from west to east. A classic double Doyle maneuver!)


Utter made-up nonsense yet again. Shelley states he is stood just outside the glass door. This is a central position, neither east nor west. If Lovelady is sat in front of him please explain how this 'unequivovally' places Shelley on the west side. If this is something you've just made up don't bother explaining.

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Furthermore! Mr Lovelady-----------who, like Mr Shelley-----------will have seen the Altgens photograph many times by Jan 64, and who was very soon after the assassination shown an FBI blow-up of it, never once indicates that he can see, or thinks he can see, Mr Shelley in the photograph. He only mentions the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor. Again, the simple reason is: he, like Mr Shelley, knows that Mr Shelley is not in view of the camera.


Please provide the quote where Lovelady is asked whether Shelley is in Altgens 6. Is he ever asked about it?

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Again I challenge you: show us the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor you think Mr Lovelady means!


The only 'lady shielding her eyes' on the TSBD steps in the Altgens pic has already identified. Maddie Reese. Lovelady has made a mistake placing her on the second floor when she works on the third. He obviously doesn't know her that well, he never refers to her by name and she never refers to him. It's a simple mistake. Maddie Reese is the only female TSBD employee on the steps shielding her eyes in Altgens. You must drop this thing about identifying Joe Molina as Sarah Stanton, it' really embarrassing.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 01:32:46 PM
Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?

Hi Ray, just to let you know I've had no problem opening your links.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 05:04:11 PM
Boy oh boy, there you go again...

As usual you have completely made something up out of thin air and presented it as a fact. Nowhere does Shelley state that he is stood west of Lovelady. If you have a quote for this please supply it. If you any quote that specifically puts Shelley to the right /west of Lovelady please provide it.

Already done----------but, just like the old Mr Doyle, you don't like inconvenient facts that get in the way of your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation.

Mr Shelley says he is not in view of the camera. The man you are saying is Mr Shelley is in view of the camera. Therefore the man you are saying is Mr Shelley is not Mr Shelley.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

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Once again I'm having to deal with something you've completely made up. Show where I have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway (Shelley) is Joe Molina.

Sure---------as soon as you show where I have argued that you have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway is Mr Molina.

You're mistaking Mr Molina for Mr Shelley because you need Mr Molina to be Mr Shelley in order to keep alive your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

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Utter made-up nonsense yet again. Shelley states he is stood just outside the glass door.

Naughty naughty!

March 18 FBI statement: "I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance"

WC testimony: Mr. BALL - You were standing where? / Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.

 :D

Compare Mr Molina (WC testimony):

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.


Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

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This is a central position, neither east nor west. If Lovelady is sat in front of him please explain how this 'unequivovally' places Shelley on the west side.

The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

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Please provide the quote where Lovelady is asked whether Shelley is in Altgens 6. Is he ever asked about it?

Mr Shelley himself was asked about it, and he gave a clear answer: I was not in view of the camera. You don't like his answer because it ruins your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation? Not my problem!

As for Mr Lovelady, he points out the lady working on the second floor because (as he states) she can vouch for his presence on the steps. You think if he could see Mr Shelley-----------whom he otherwise mentions every time he talks about who was with him on the steps-----------in the photograph he would fail to mention that fact?

Of course you do, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

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The only 'lady shielding her eyes' on the TSBD steps in the Altgens pic has already identified. Maddie Reese. Lovelady has made a mistake placing her on the second floor when she works on the third. He obviously doesn't know her that well, he never refers to her by name and she never refers to him. It's a simple mistake. Maddie Reese is the only female TSBD employee on the steps shielding her eyes in Altgens. You must drop this thing about identifying Joe Molina as Sarah Stanton, it' really embarrassing.

What's embarrassing is that you can't find the woman from the second floor whom Mr Lovelady can see in the Altgens photograph. All you can do is reject what he is saying on entirely makey-uppey grounds because it doesn't fit your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation. 

Keep up your groundbreaking work! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 06:49:00 PM

The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!


According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was on the top step 'to the far right against the wall of the entranceway' and that at that time Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton were stood with him.

It's really nice of you to make my arguments for me but I can manage without your help. You have just placed Sarah Stanton on the west side of the entranceway. Looking forward to see what you make up to get out of this one.

 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 10:19:30 PM
According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was on the top step 'to the far right against the wall of the entranceway' and that at that time Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton were stood with him.

Another post from you that is positively Doyle-esque in its shameless dishonesty and reality denial!  :D

Mr Lovelady sees Ms Stanton standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, and accordingly names her (along with Mr Shelley) as having been standing next to him. Not complicated!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Another post from you that is positively Doyle-esque in its shameless dishonesty and reality denial!  :D

Mr Lovelady sees Ms Stanton standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, and accordingly names her (along with Mr Shelley) as having been standing next to him. Not complicated!
More Fantasia Ford. Talking about the Hughes film then changing it to Altgens when it suits!
Not complicated when you can float around in a world where fact and fantasy are so interchangeable.
 8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 10:35:00 PM
More Fantasia Ford. Talking about the Hughes film then changing it to Altgens when it suits!
Not complicated when you can float around in a world where fact and fantasy are so interchangeable.
 8)

 :D

(https://i.imgur.com/o7ykLgu.jpg)

Ms Madeleine Reese did not work on the second floor. Therefore Mr Lovelady must mean the person standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, whom it is logical to identify as Ms Stanton-----------a lady who did work on the second floor and who will just so happen to a) mention Mr Lovelady in her March 64 FBI interview; b) be the lady Mr Lovelady will tell the FBI was "standing next to me".

Thanks for playing-------------better luck next time!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 23, 2020, 10:50:13 PM
:D

(https://i.imgur.com/o7ykLgu.jpg)

Ms Madeleine Reese did not work on the second floor. Therefore Mr Lovelady must mean the person standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, whom it is logical to identify as Ms Stanton-----------a lady who did work on the second floor and who will just so happen to a) mention Mr Lovelady in her March 64 FBI interview; b) be the lady Mr Lovelady will tell the FBI was "standing next to me".

Thanks for playing-------------better luck next time!

 ;D ;D
So you're just going into denial about placing Stanton by the west wall.
If, as you insist, Shelley is west of Lovelady where is he in this photo?
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvCG6NT7/Wiegman-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 11:23:15 PM
;D ;D
So you're just going into denial about placing Stanton by the west wall.

No, I'm not in denial about your demented, evidence-denying placement of Ms Stanton by the west wall.

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If, as you insist, Shelley is west of Lovelady where is he in this photo?
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvCG6NT7/Wiegman-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Here he is:

(https://i.imgur.com/K1D3MIn.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 23, 2020, 11:45:15 PM
You are Mr Buell Wesley Frazier. It is November 2013, just days away from the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination. Less than two months ago, Mr Gary Mack contacted you to ask you about a mysterious figure standing in the shadows of the front entrance. Having looked at the film still, you told him you couldn't identify said figure. Now, as part of an interview feature for the Richmond Virginia Times, you allow yourself to be photographed standing right by the spot where that mysterious figure was standing and pointing your left index figure at that exact spot...

(https://i.imgur.com/Ru6w4nM.jpg)

EITHER you are extraordinarily dumb and/or forgetful OR you know exactly what you are doing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 24, 2020, 12:26:10 AM
No, I'm not in denial about your demented, evidence-denying placement of Ms Stanton by the west wall.

Here he is:

(https://i.imgur.com/K1D3MIn.jpg)

 Thumb1:

So you finally reveal how devious you're willing to be when cornered. Using a single, shaky frame from Wiegman to try and demonstrate there's someone stood behind Lovelady.
Really pathetic.
I think we're done here  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 01:34:41 AM
So you finally reveal how devious you're willing to be when cornered. Using a single, shaky frame from Wiegman to try and demonstrate there's someone stood behind Lovelady.
Really pathetic.
I think we're done here  Thumb1:

 :D

My, you really are as sore a loser as the old Mr Doyle!

Consecutive Wiegman frames:

(https://i.imgur.com/BUZfJBE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rf8N0DA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3GbMtRy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1aBzH6F.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NdifkuG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zNxEytI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yYfuvXx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/n2244V4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nb00dIP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9G8M44o.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3APFzdE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UznX6uh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EHzhSM2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2O6KTPg.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 09:21:09 PM
Red arrow: fabric ------------------------- Purple arrow: skin

(https://i.imgur.com/z5fmlGM.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 10:08:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/tG9lH1m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3uT8ICn.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2020, 10:12:35 PM
Blue arrows: TIE (denoting male white-collar worker)

Pink arrow: NO TIE!

(https://i.imgur.com/eQtMOMJ.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hunnicutt on August 24, 2020, 11:35:24 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcVHMP3C/Lovelady-on-TSBD-steps-Hughes-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Have you got your glasses on.

Lovelady stood at the far right of the entranceway as stated previously. At this time he states he was stood near Stanton.
Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way.

"Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way"

Which witness and where were they standing?

If this witness was in front of or across the street from the TSBD and they are looking at the TSBD from the street, sure, Stanton to them was at far right of wall of the entrance way, or, furthest away from Oswald.

Stanton also stated she didn't see Oswald.

Just because she didn't see him doesn't mean he wasn't there.

It only means, well, she didn't see him. Entertain me, why do you suppose she couldn't see him?

Opposite directions on the steps per chance?

Any other questions on this long de-bunked Stanton Doyle induced Garbagola?

Let's try to keep this place cleaned up, they just got rid of one crazy clown here in Doyle, and here you ride on in to fill the void.

Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 25, 2020, 12:04:33 AM
"Cry Doyle all you want but a witness puts Stanton over by the far right wall of the entrance way"

Which witness and where were they standing?

If this witness was in front of or across the street from the TSBD and they are looking at the TSBD from the street, sure, Stanton to them was at far right of wall of the entrance way, or, furthest away from Oswald.

Stanton also stated she didn't see Oswald.

Just because she didn't see him doesn't mean he wasn't there.

It only means, well, she didn't see him. Entertain me, why do you suppose she couldn't see him?

Opposite directions on the steps per chance?

Any other questions on this long de-bunked Stanton Doyle induced Garbagola?

Let's try to keep this place cleaned up, they just got rid of one crazy clown here in Doyle, and here you ride on in to fill the void.

Unbelievable.

Read from Reply #332. Get up to speed. Ask an informed question.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 25, 2020, 06:03:23 AM
According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Bull. As I pointed out at least three times already, all Lovelady said was that Stanton and Shelley were standing next to him. He didn’t say in what direction.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 25, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Bull. As I pointed out at least three times already, all Lovelady said was that Stanton and Shelley were standing next to him. He didn’t say in what direction.

Alan said:
 "The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway."

You don't have a problem with this (of course) and what I said was a response to this.
What are you talking about anyway? Who is saying 'what direction'? What does this mean?
Lovelady is saying he is stood over by the west wall and that Stanton is in close proximity to him. What has 'direction' got to do with it?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 25, 2020, 11:43:41 AM
Alan said:
 "The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway."

You don't have a problem with this (of course) and what I said was a response to this.
What are you talking about anyway? Who is saying 'what direction'? What does this mean?
Lovelady is saying he is stood over by the west wall and that Stanton is in close proximity to him. What has 'direction' got to do with it?

 :D

Looks like the new Mr Doyle is going to have to keep looking for that hitherto elusive dictionary that defines 'next to' as 'to the right rather than to the left of'!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 26, 2020, 08:43:15 PM
Alan said:
 "The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway."

You don't have a problem with this (of course) and what I said was a response to this.
What are you talking about anyway? Who is saying 'what direction'? What does this mean?
Lovelady is saying he is stood over by the west wall and that Stanton is in close proximity to him. What has 'direction' got to do with it?

Because you (and Doyle) keep trying to use this to "show" that Stanton must therefore have been "over by the west column of the entranceway".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 26, 2020, 10:05:42 PM
Because you (and Doyle) keep trying to use this to "show" that Stanton must therefore have been "over by the west column of the entranceway".

So when Alan states:"The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.", you don't have a problem with this at all. But when I point out that Lovelady places both Shelley and Stanton with him you suddenly have a problem.
This is no surprise. When Mr Ford made his utterly ludicrous identification of Sarah Stanton as Joe Molina you actually supported it. When the same Mr Ford uses a shaky Wiegman frame to fraudulently attempt to show Shelley was west of Lovelady at the time of the assassination, you have nothing to say.

Are you a Prayer Man advocate? If not, what is the problem you have with proposing Stanton as the person stood in the shadows?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 26, 2020, 10:22:19 PM
So when Alan states:"The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.", you don't have a problem with this at all. But when I point out that Lovelady places both Shelley and Stanton with him you suddenly have a problem.

My problem is that "with" and "next to" don't mean what you want them to mean.  Nobody disagrees that Lovelady said he was standing with Shelley and Stanton. 

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This is no surprise. When Mr Ford made his utterly ludicrous identification of Sarah Stanton as Joe Molina you actually supported it.

I did?  When?  And why is this more utterly ludicrous than your "smoking fat lady"?  And how you identified both Shelley and Molina remains a mystery.  Kinda like how you identified Calvery.

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Are you a Prayer Man advocate? If not, what is the problem you have with proposing Stanton as the person stood in the shadows?

Because there's no evidence that this is Stanton.  "Lovelady said Stanton was next to him" ain't it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2020, 10:25:20 PM
When the same Mr Ford uses a shaky Wiegman frame to fraudulently attempt to show Shelley was west of Lovelady at the time of the assassination, you have nothing to say.

 :D

Ain't it funny how the old Doyle pattern of blatantly misrepresenting others' posts surfaces again in the posts of the new Doyle? It's almost like they're one and the same guy!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 29, 2020, 11:31:33 PM
Prayer Man in the Weaver photograph (taken as JFK is just turning on to Houston St)?

(https://i.imgur.com/aFwL1Pq.jpg)

A few seconds later, and Mr Lovelady has risen to his feet to see the limousine--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/YO1Tdd5.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 03, 2020, 11:00:06 AM
There is photo of the bottle a front steps that indicates it’s a Dr.Pepper bottle, one with large white oval emblem on it typical of 1963 era Dr. Pepper bottles
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 04, 2020, 09:01:35 PM
In his book The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), Dr. David Wrone makes a convincing case that Oswald, not Bill Lovelady, is the man seen standing in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo. Until very recently, I made the mistake of accepting the HSCA PEP's identification of the man as Lovelady. I should have known better. In fact, again until very recently, I always viewed the attempts to identify the man as Oswald as amateurish and embarrassing to the multiple-gunmen position.

When I recently bought Wrone's book and saw that it had a chapter on the man in the doorway (chapter 11), I assumed that Wrone identified the man as Lovelady. As I read the chapter, I soon realized that he did not, but I also saw that he made a very strong case for the Oswald identification. When I got to the last page of the chapter, I thought to myself, "Holy cow! This is powerful stuff!"

Of course, since the Altgens photo shows Oswald standing in the TSBD doorway, he could not have been up on the sixth floor firing at Kennedy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 05, 2020, 12:14:45 AM
In his book The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), Dr. David Wrone makes a convincing case that Oswald, not Bill Lovelady, is the man seen standing in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo. Until very recently, I made the mistake of accepting the HSCA PEP's identification of the man as Lovelady. I should have known better. In fact, again until very recently, I always viewed the attempts to identify the man as Oswald as amateurish and embarrassing to the multiple-gunmen position.

When I recently bought Wrone's book and saw that it had a chapter on the man in the doorway (chapter 11), I assumed that Wrone identified the man as Lovelady. As I read the chapter, I soon realized that he did not, but I also saw that he made a very strong case for the Oswald identification. When I got to the last page of the chapter, I thought to myself, "Holy cow! This is powerful stuff!"

Of course, since the Altgens photo shows Oswald standing in the TSBD doorway, he could not have been up on the sixth floor firing at Kennedy.

There is

------------a very strong case to be made for Mr Oswald's having gone outside to watch the P. parade

------------a very strong case to be made for Mr Oswald's being Prayer Man

------------no case to be made for Mr Oswald's being the man in the doorway in the Altgens photograph.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 05, 2020, 03:17:30 AM
There is no case to be made for Mr Oswald's being the man in the doorway in the Altgens photograph.

That's what I thought until I read Wrone's chapter on the subject. You might want to read it.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2020, 01:49:41 PM
That's what I thought until I read Wrone's chapter on the subject. You might want to read it.

Holy crap!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2020, 02:48:54 PM
Holy crap!

One of the facts that Dr. Wrone points out is that we now have a clear picture from the Martin film of Bill Lovelady standing near the TSBD entrance shortly after the shooting, and the picture undeniably shows that Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved black-and-red shirt buttoned at the collar with no buttons unbuttoned. This fact categorically, absolutely rules him out as the man in the doorway.

Since Lovelady and Oswald's faces and hair looked very similar, we can go back and forth about the facial features of the man in the doorway, but we now know what kind of shirt Lovelady wore, and it was not the shirt worn by the man in the doorway.

Dr. Wrone notes that if you study the original Altgens photo at the National Archives, not the multi-generation copies commonly available, the man in the doorway's shirt looks exactly like the shirt that Oswald wore to work that day, down to the detail that the shirt is slightly oversized, that the shirt's color and pattern match those of Oswald's shirt, that the shirt has a small tear, and that the top three button holes are stretched and thus could not be buttoned, which explains why the top part of the man's shirt is unbuttoned.

Open your mind. Dare yourself to read research published after 1980.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 07, 2020, 06:25:32 PM
One of the facts that Dr. Wrone points out is that we now have a clear picture from the Martin film of Bill Lovelady standing near the TSBD entrance shortly after the shooting, and the picture undeniably shows Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved black-and-red shirt buttoned at the collar with no buttons unbuttoned. This fact categorically, absolutely rules him out as the man in the doorway.

It also destroys those whose say that Lovelady was wearing a striped shirt, not a red and white patterned shirt

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
It also destroys those whose say that Lovelady was wearing a striped shirt, not a red and white patterned shirt.

Yes, and the WC needed to ID the man as Lovelady because the man, by everyone's admission, also looks very much like Oswald. So they needed to ID the man as someone who looked similar to Oswald, and they were very lucky that Lovelady happened to be nearby at the same time. However, the commission had to brazenly misrepresent the facts about the shirt that Lovelady wore that day. The WC did not know that in later years the Martin film would provide clear frames of Lovelady and of the shirt he wore.

So it turns out that Harold Weisberg, known for being careful and meticulous, was right after all. Weisberg always insisted that Oswald was the man in the doorway. I regret that I was so certain that Weisberg was wrong that I didn't even bother to read his arguments on the subject. I should have known better.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2020, 07:55:47 PM
One of the facts that Dr. Wrone points out is that we now have a clear picture from the Martin film of Bill Lovelady standing near the TSBD entrance shortly after the shooting, and the picture undeniably shows Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved black-and-red shirt buttoned at the collar with no buttons unbuttoned. This fact categorically, absolutely rules him out as the man in the doorway.

Since Lovelady and Oswald's faces and hair looked very similar, we can go back and forth about the facial features of the man in the doorway, but we now know what kind of shirt Lovelady wore, and it was not the shirt worn by the man in the doorway.

Dr. Wrone notes that if you study the original Altgens photo at the National Archives, not the multi-generation copies commonly available, the man in the doorway's shirt looks exactly like the shirt that Oswald wore to work that day, down to the detail that the shirt is slightly oversized, that the shirt's color and pattern match those of Oswald's shirt, that the shirt has a small tear, and that the top three button holes are stretched and thus could not be buttoned, which explains why the top part of the man's shirt is unbuttoned.

Open your mind. Dare yourself to read research published after 1980.


Lovelady identified himself as himself. Fellow workers identified him as himself. I reckon Oswald had somewhat higher, loftier ambitions than to just stand around on TSBD entrance steps, doing nothing more than looking like himself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hunnicutt on September 07, 2020, 07:58:58 PM
"Truth be told, we don't really know exactly where Shelley stood either."

You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?

"He could say that if Stanton was between him and Sanders (ie. somewhere in the middle of the entranceway)."

That has no bearing on the point I'm making. (wouldn't she be in Altgens 6)

"Everyone in the entryway was standing "together".  It's not like it was some vast expanse of real estate."

Nice flip flop. A second ago no-one was standing next to prayer-blob as if it was some vast expanse of real estate, now everyone's together.
The two closest people to prayer-blob are Lovelady and Shelley. Lovelady confirms she was over by the right (west) side. Stanton can't see the motorcade as soon as it passes the front of the building.
Stanton is prayer-blob  8)

...You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?...

You don't say...

Bill Shelley was a fat guy?

Please opine?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2020, 12:04:05 AM
...You don't think the fat chap in the doorway is Shelley?...

You don't say...

Bill Shelley was a fat guy?

Please opine?

"Bill Shelley was a fat guy?"

What are you talking about? In the picture below Shelley is the man on the far right. Do some basic research before you make your next irrelevant comment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFVzTJLY/shelley-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 08, 2020, 08:12:28 PM
Lovelady identified himself as himself. Fellow workers identified him as himself. I reckon Oswald had somewhat higher, loftier ambitions than to just stand around on TSBD entrance steps, doing nothing more than looking like himself.

Yeah, except that Lovelady lied about the shirt he was wearing and lied about where he was located. We know this from the Martin film and from other photographic evidence. I don't blame Lovelady too much because he was undoubtedly strong-armed by the FBI to lie about these things because they were desperate to avoid having to admit that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting.

Gosh, why don't you just dare yourself to break down and read research even though you know it will challenge your position?

Dr. Wrone is a very careful, measured scholar, not prone to flights of fancy. His book was endorsed by the likes of Dr. Douglas Brinkley and Dr. Walter Dellinger. Brinkley was the director of the Eisenhower Center and a professor of history at the University of New Orleans. Dellinger was a professor of law at Duke University and a former U.S. Solicitor General.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 08, 2020, 09:23:27 PM
Yeah, except that Lovelady lied about the shirt he was wearing and lied about where he was located. We know this from the Martin film and from other photographic evidence. I don't blame Lovelady too much because he was undoubtedly strong-armed by the FBI to lie about these things because they were desperate to avoid having to admit that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting.

Gosh, why don't you just dare yourself to break down and read research even though you know it will challenge your position?

Dr. Wrone is a very careful, measured scholar, not prone to flights of fancy. His book was endorsed by the likes of Dr. Douglas Brinkley and Dr. Walter Dellinger. Brinkley was the director of the Eisenhower Center and a professor of history at the University of New Orleans. Dellinger was a professor of law at Duke University and a former U.S. Solicitor General.

Goody for them: Now tell us who knew, besides the shooter, that a hit on Kennedy was scheduled for that day. So far, it seems everyone else either slept in or missed that particular memo.

My position includes having both feet on the ground, as opposed to pouring a vat of ivory-tower credentials over the ramparts like so much hot oil.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 09, 2020, 06:38:43 AM
If prayer blob is Stanton , then one would have to conclude that the  Lovelady statement “and right behind me” would have ended with “Sarah Stanton”, if he had not been interrupted in his WC testimony .

But would it not be illogically redundant for Lovelady to be relocating Stanton “ behind me” when he has already just located  her along with Shelley in his previous statement?

Now if one speculates that Lovelady was just about to ID the person in his “ and right behind me” statement as Oswald, if not interrupted, then one has to wonder why Lovelady would not met with one of those curious “accidental deaths” that so many other JFK witnesses did.

Would the conspirators have allowed Lovelady to live on for another 13 years with this vital secret of knowing Oswald had an iron clad alibi?

Perhaps this “interruption” of Lovelady in the WC hearing was merely coincidental, and the conspirators never really knew Lovelady had been almost about to exonerate Oswald?

could Lovelady have kept this vital secret to himself for the next 13 years?

Should Loveladys   death very close to the HSCA hearing be considered merely  a concidental death?

Or did conspirators learn belated via some source that Lovelady might ID the person “behind” as Oswald, thus Lovelady meets with the timely fatal heart attack at only the age of 45?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 09, 2020, 11:19:52 AM
If prayer blob is Stanton , then one would have to conclude that the  Lovelady statement “and right behind me” would have ended with “Sarah Stanton”, if he had not been interrupted in his WC testimony .

But would it not be illogically redundant for Lovelady to be relocating Stanton “ behind me” when he has already just located  her along with Shelley in his previous statement?

Now if one speculates that Lovelady was just about to ID the person in his “ and right behind me” statement as Oswald, if not interrupted, then one has to wonder why Lovelady would not met with one of those curious “accidental deaths” that so many other JFK witnesses did.

Would the conspirators have allowed Lovelady to live on for another 13 years with this vital secret of knowing Oswald had an iron clad alibi?

Perhaps this “interruption” of Lovelady in the WC hearing was merely coincidental, and the conspirators never really knew Lovelady had been almost about to exonerate Oswald?

could Lovelady have kept this vital secret to himself for the next 13 years?

Should Loveladys   death very close to the HSCA hearing be considered merely  a concidental death?

Or did conspirators learn belated via some source that Lovelady might ID the person “behind” as Oswald, thus Lovelady meets with the timely fatal heart attack at only the age of 45?

If we assume prayer-blob is LHO, the problem isn't confined to Lovelady. The majority of the twelve people stood on the TSBD steps as the President passed by knew LHO by sight, as did other employees who would have a clear view of prayer-blob such as O V Campbell and Roy Edward Lewis. In Darnell we see employees streaming back into the building all filing past him. When Baker gets into the lobby he sees "several people standing around" who we can assume are returning employees who have just passed LHO on the steps.
The number of witnesses who recognised LHO on the steps would probably run into double figures. In order to avoid this inconvenience PMZ's have LHO slipping outside quietly at the last minute and taking up a position at the back where he goes unnoticed (lets ignore the employees filing past him). AND THEN, to make the height requirements the same zealots have LHO in this position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbNHtwrg/oswald-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here we see him stood in the most awkward position imaginable, blocking part of the steps, in plain view of anyone on the top steps and right in the face of any returning employees. Hardly inconspicuous.
As soon as the FBI started interviewing people they would be hearing statement after statement placing LHO on the top step. All these people would have to be individually threatened and all would have to play along. In terms of mysterious deaths, every single person who witnessed LHO on the steps that day would become a top priority target.
This is all fantasy of course and goes away when we realise Oswald was not on the steps and is not prayer-blob.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2020, 09:27:31 PM
Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere.

Hardly anybody mentioned Jeraldean Reid standing out front.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
In his book The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), Dr. David Wrone makes a convincing case that Oswald, not Bill Lovelady, is the man seen standing in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo.

The problem is, the face and the hairline do not look like Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on September 10, 2020, 03:10:19 PM

The Altgens Doorway Man figure was proven to be Lovelady decades ago. Only a few people like Cinque still believe it is Oswald.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 10, 2020, 11:55:08 PM
So if someone can explain the 5’3” inch height of Prayerperson as due to something other than slouching/leaning against the west wall, or the one foot on lower step position , and one can explain the apparent fuzziness of busy hair behind the neck (is it hair or is it some photographic anomaly?)

And the white shirt person with both hands shading the eyes. that Alan Ford  has suggested might be Sarah Stanton , then there is a still a very slight possibility that PM is Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2020, 05:26:30 PM
Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere.

Hardly anybody mentioned Jeraldean Reid standing out front.

Ignore John, he likes to misrepresent everything I say.
This thread begins with me arguing that Oswald was an antisocial loner who went out of his way to avoid interacting with his fellow employees (there is plenty of testimonial evidence to this effect). Although he kept himself to himself this didn't make him invisible, far from it, it made him really stand out. John would have you believe you have to be 'intimately familiar' with someone in order to recognise their face. This is not the case, Oswald's extremely antisocial behaviour made him very recognisable.
Of the twelve employees who place themselves on the TSBD steps at the time of the assassination seven state they knew Oswald by sight, three stated they didn't know what he looked like, two simply say they didn't see him that day (Carl Edward Jones would've known Oswald from the Domino Room). Two people who were on the steps seconds after the last shot also knew Oswald by sight - Roy Truly and Roy Edward Lewis. Of the employees who were out front and who immediately returned to the TSBD after the shooting, six knew Oswald by sight - Westbrook, Hicks, Calvery, Hughes, Martha Reed and Jeraldean Reid. Carolyn Arnold, stood in front of the steps thought she may have seen Oswald behind the glass entrance about fifteen minutes before the motorcade arrived but never noticed him after that.
There are other possibilities but we can say with great confidence that if Oswald had been on the steps at least one of these people would have seen him. Nobody did.
John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows but in order to make the height requirement Oswald has to be placed at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step partially blocking the steps. Not exactly inconspicuous.
John's point about Jeraldean Reid is ridiculous. Firstly, two people - Carl Edward Lewis and Ochus Campbell - place Reid in front of the steps but this is not the point. Nobody is asking "Did you see Jeraldean Reid on the day of the assassination?" People are being specifically asked if they saw Oswald. Nobody places Carl Edward Jones on the steps but it doesn't matter. All that matters is where Oswald was at the time of the assassination and nobody, not one of all the potential witnesses who knew Oswald by sight, place him on the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2020, 06:10:20 PM
If prayer blob is Stanton , then one would have to conclude that the  Lovelady statement “and right behind me” would have ended with “Sarah Stanton”, if he had not been interrupted in his WC testimony .

But would it not be illogically redundant for Lovelady to be relocating Stanton “ behind me” when he has already just located  her along with Shelley in his previous statement?

Now if one speculates that Lovelady was just about to ID the person in his “ and right behind me” statement as Oswald, if not interrupted, then one has to wonder why Lovelady would not met with one of those curious “accidental deaths” that so many other JFK witnesses did.

Would the conspirators have allowed Lovelady to live on for another 13 years with this vital secret of knowing Oswald had an iron clad alibi?

Perhaps this “interruption” of Lovelady in the WC hearing was merely coincidental, and the conspirators never really knew Lovelady had been almost about to exonerate Oswald?

could Lovelady have kept this vital secret to himself for the next 13 years?

Should Loveladys   death very close to the HSCA hearing be considered merely  a concidental death?

Or did conspirators learn belated via some source that Lovelady might ID the person “behind” as Oswald, thus Lovelady meets with the timely fatal heart attack at only the age of 45?

Like a lot of people I too thought Lovelady had been interrupted before he could say who was behind him but I've noticed something in his WC testimony that indicates this might not be the case. For those who want to place Oswald on the steps at the time of the assassination the story must go something like this - Lovelady recognised Oswald on the steps but was warned/threatened that he was to ignore this (the same must be true of all the potential witnesses). Just before his WC testimony Lovelady would probably have been warned again not to mention Oswald but as he was being questioned about who he was stood with on the steps he was just about to let it slip that Oswald was there but, in a moment of telepathic brilliance, Mr Ball interrupts to steer him away from his potential blunder.
However, when we look more closely at Lovelady's WC testimony we notice the following two passages:

"Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?"

"Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?"

In both these examples we can see that Lovelady was interrupted during the questioning. These interruptions are represented by 3 dashes (---) at the end of Lovelady's words. Now look at the passage in question:

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Notice there are no dashes at the point where it is thought Lovelady was interrupted. It should read like this:

Mr. LOVALADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me ---
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

So it looks like Lovelady wasn't interrupted at all. If that's the case what can we make of his reply.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2020, 02:14:05 AM
There are other possibilities but we can say with great confidence that if Oswald had been on the steps at least one of these people would have seen him. Nobody did.

Why can “we” say that with great confidence? Just because you decided that it was so?

Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm street have some kind of 360-degree vision?

Quote
John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows but in order to make the height requirement Oswald has to be placed at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step partially blocking the steps. Not exactly inconspicuous.

Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind. By the way, what “height requirement”?

Quote
John's point about Jeraldean Reid is ridiculous. Firstly, two people - Carl Edward Lewis and Ochus Campbell - place Reid in front of the steps but this is not the point. Nobody is asking "Did you see Jeraldean Reid on the day of the assassination?" People are being specifically asked if they saw Oswald. Nobody places Carl Edward Jones on the steps but it doesn't matter.

Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 13, 2020, 03:50:08 AM
Why can “we” say that with great confidence? Just because you decided that it was so?

Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm street have some kind of 360-degree vision?

Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind. By the way, what “height requirement”?

Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there.

"Why can "we" say that with great confidence? Just because you decided so?"

No John, it's not because I decided so. The answer to your question is in the section of my post you decided to leave out (a familiar tactic). Let's assume prayer-blob is Oswald. The reason I believe "we" can say with great confidence at least one of he witnesses who knew Oswald by sight would have spotted him on the steps is because there are so many of them. They are stood on the landing with him, on the steps just in front of him and passing by him on the steps as they return to the building. I believe the chances of him being spotted by at least one of the many witnesses are very high.

"Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm Street have some kind of 360-degree vision?"

Really John? This nonsense is the best you can come up with? People have necks on which they can turn their heads. They have bodies that can move about. Your assertion that people can only look in one direction is childish. But lets imagine you're right and they can only look straight ahead. The people coming up the steps would still be able to see him wouldn't they? (unless you also have a rule about having to close your eyes as you go up steps!)

"Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind."

Referring to yourself in the first-person is creepy. This is what you said:
"Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere." (my italics)
This is what I said:
"John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows..."
Please explain how you've been misrepresented.

"By the way, what “height requirement”?"

An analysis of the Darnell film by Andrej Stancak measures the height of prayer-blob as about 5'2". This is too short for Oswald so in order for him to meet the "height requirement" (5'2") he has to be standing with one foot on the first step as shown in the graphic I posted.

"Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there."

My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there. The reason it doesn't matter if someone like Carl Edward Jones wasn't mentioned by other witnesses is that he wasn't suspected of assassinating JFK. The FBI was specifically asking if anyone had seen Oswald. People were being asked to remember if they had seen Oswald at the time of the assassination, not Carl Jones.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 13, 2020, 07:02:11 PM
"Why can "we" say that with great confidence? Just because you decided so?"

No John, it's not because I decided so. The answer to your question is in the section of my post you decided to leave out (a familiar tactic). Let's assume prayer-blob is Oswald. The reason I believe "we" can say with great confidence at least one of he witnesses who knew Oswald by sight would have spotted him on the steps is because there are so many of them. They are stood on the landing with him, on the steps just in front of him and passing by him on the steps as they return to the building. I believe the chances of him being spotted by at least one of the many witnesses are very high.

"Did the people watching the motorcade on Elm Street have some kind of 360-degree vision?"

Really John? This nonsense is the best you can come up with? People have necks on which they can turn their heads. They have bodies that can move about. Your assertion that people can only look in one direction is childish. But lets imagine you're right and they can only look straight ahead. The people coming up the steps would still be able to see him wouldn't they? (unless you also have a rule about having to close your eyes as you go up steps!)

"Talk about misrepresentations. John said nothing of the kind."

Referring to yourself in the first-person is creepy. This is what you said:
"Dan would have you think that everybody who worked in the TSBD was intimately familiar with LHO prior to the assassination even though he rarely socialized with anybody or even talked to them and would have specifically remembered seeing him standing in the shadows during a traumatic event with people scattered around everywhere." (my italics)
This is what I said:
"John would have you believe Oswald was stood back in the shadows..."
Please explain how you've been misrepresented.

"By the way, what “height requirement”?"

An analysis of the Darnell film by Andrej Stancak measures the height of prayer-blob as about 5'2". This is too short for Oswald so in order for him to meet the "height requirement" (5'2") he has to be standing with one foot on the first step as shown in the graphic I posted.

"Why does it not matter? You entire argument is that if nobody mentioned noticing him then he wasn’t there."

My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there. The reason it doesn't matter if someone like Carl Edward Jones wasn't mentioned by other witnesses is that he wasn't suspected of assassinating JFK. The FBI was specifically asking if anyone had seen Oswald. People were being asked to remember if they had seen Oswald at the time of the assassination, not Carl Jones.


My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there.

Wow, that's a massive assumption and a flawed one, for two reasons;

1. People were all looking in the direction of Elm street, where the motorcade was passing. They had no reason to turn around and look who was behind them. After the shots were fired it was complete chaos, with people not knowing what was going on. Under those circumstances people notice very little of their surroundings.

2. Even if nobody saw Oswald there, that still only means that nobody saw him (or possibly did not recall seeing him) there. It doesn't mean he wasn't there.

A while ago I was walking down the street when a car hit a cyclist. The accident quickly got the attention of lots of people and one of them was a good friend of mine. He was on the other side of the street and I waved to him, but got no reaction. About an hour later he phoned me and told me about the accident and I answered I knew about it because I had been there when it happened and had seen him. He had not seen me!

Going by your "logic", he did not see me, so I couldn't have been there, right? Yet, I was there nevertheless!

Do you now see how flawed you reasoning is?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 13, 2020, 08:19:29 PM

My argument is that if Oswald was stood on the top step one of the many witnesses who knew him by sight would surely have seen him there.

Wow, that's a massive assumption and a flawed one, for two reasons;

1. People were all looking in the direction of Elm street, where the motorcade was passing. They had no reason to turn around and look who was behind them. After the shots were fired it was complete chaos, with people not knowing what was going on. Under those circumstances people notice very little of their surroundings.

2. Even if nobody saw Oswald there, that still only means that nobody saw him (or possibly did not recall seeing him) there. It doesn't mean he wasn't there.

A while ago I was walking down the street when a car hit a cyclist. The accident quickly got the attention of lots of people and one of them was a good friend of mine. He was on the other side of the street and I waved to him, but got no reaction. About an hour later he phoned me and told me about the accident and I answered I knew about it because I had been there when it happened and had seen him. He had not seen me!

Going by your "logic", he did not see me, so I couldn't have been there, right? Yet, I was there nevertheless!

Do you now see how flawed you reasoning is?

I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption. Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!
In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 13, 2020, 10:52:09 PM
I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption. Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!
In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?

I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption.

There is no such thing as a "reasonable assumption". An assumption is by definition biased and will always support the argument that the person making the assumption wants to make. There is nothing reasonable about that.

Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

All this is, is an argument in support of your assumption. It has no significant value... There is no cut off point, where you can say; "oh, 20 people didn't see him there, so he wasn't there".

You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions!

No... Of course it is possible that somebody turned their head. The problem is that there is no evidence to support the argument that somebody actually did. Personally, I find it somewhat unlikely that anybody who has waited for the President for some time would actually look away at the moment he passes by.

Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

That's one version. Another one is that she saw him in the 2nd floor lunchroom. There is nothing solid there, either way.

In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?


There is no flaw in my reasoning. The actually flaw is your failure to understand what I was saying. It's human nature that you fail to ignore. If something interesting is going on in front of you, you don't turn around and look the other way. It doesn't matter if you apply that to one person or to a dozen. The outcome is still the same.

But even if it wasn't, and all 12 people turned around at the same time and did not see Oswald there, that still does not mean he wasn't there. It only means that, for whatever reason, they didn't see him.

Your basic argument requires that you prove a negative and that's something nobody has ever been able to do.

Btw, just so you understand. I don't know if Oswald was there or not nor do I argue that he was there. I think it's possible he was indeed there, but that's only because of Baker's initial comments before they morphed into a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. What is beyond clear to me by now is that Oswald being at the 6th floor at 12.30 shooting at Kennedy's limo is a highly unlikely scenario.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 14, 2020, 01:44:18 AM
I agree it's an assumption but by no means is it a massive one. It's a totally reasonable assumption.

There is no such thing as a "reasonable assumption". An assumption is by definition biased and will always support the argument that the person making the assumption wants to make. There is nothing reasonable about that.

Read through the thread, for Oswald to make the height requirement he has to be stood at the front of the landing with one foot on the first step. He's not stood at the back where people would have to turn round to see him. He would be more to the front than anyone else on the landing. Buell Frazier and Roy Edward Lewis are stood in the lobby behind the glass and would have an unobstructed view of him as would the people returning to the building who would have to pass right by him. You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions! Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

All this is, is an argument in support of your assumption. It has no significant value... There is no cut off point, where you can say; "oh, 20 people didn't see him there, so he wasn't there".

You too seem to have this impression that nobody can turn their heads round and look in different directions!

No... Of course it is possible that somebody turned their head. The problem is that there is no evidence to support the argument that somebody actually did. Personally, I find it somewhat unlikely that anybody who has waited for the President for some time would actually look away at the moment he passes by.

Caroline Arnold was stood at the bottom of the steps but thought she might have seen him behind the glass!

That's one version. Another one is that she saw him in the 2nd floor lunchroom. There is nothing solid there, either way.

In your example one person doesn't see you yet you think you can compare it to this situation. If a dozen people who knew you by sight were at the accident, some of them passing right next to you but nobody saw you it's comparable.
Can't you see how flawed your reasoning is?


There is no flaw in my reasoning. The actually flaw is your failure to understand what I was saying. It's human nature that you fail to ignore. If something interesting is going on in front of you, you don't turn around and look the other way. It doesn't matter if you apply that to one person or to a dozen. The outcome is still the same.

But even if it wasn't, and all 12 people turned around at the same time and did not see Oswald there, that still does not mean he wasn't there. It only means that, for whatever reason, they didn't see him.

Your basic argument requires that you prove a negative and that's something nobody has ever been able to do.

Btw, just so you understand. I don't know if Oswald was there or not nor do I argue that he was there. I think it's possible he was indeed there, but that's only because of Baker's initial comments before they morphed into a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. What is beyond clear to me by now is that Oswald being at the 6th floor at 12.30 shooting at Kennedy's limo is a highly unlikely scenario.
I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it. There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it. The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid. There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.
What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there. It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2020, 03:35:18 AM
I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it. There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it. The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid. There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.
What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there. It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it.

Yes, there is a point. I only have an opinion. If that opinion is incorrect, I would love to know about it.

There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it.

Let me correct my previous comment. There is indeed a thing as a reasonable assumption, but only in those cases where the assumption has no consequence for the subsequent opinion. In other words; when you wake up in the morning and the streets are wet, it is reasonable to assume that it rained during the night.  It still could be the wrong conclusion as it could also be that a fire hydrant exploded, but it was a reasonable conclusion nevertheless, as it was a conclusion without consequence.

However, as soon as the final outcome is determined by the assumption, it is no longer reasonable.

The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid.

Wrong. As soon as the shots were fired, it was chaos at Dealey Plaza... The observations of individuals became less reliable, not more reliable. The human brain can only process so much. When the POTUS is killed in front of you, most people hardly pay attention to their surroundings. Instead their main focus is to find out what happened.

You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.

I don't ignore anything. A dozen people said they didn't see Oswald, so what? Big deal! When did they say that? Months later, after Oswald was already dead and buried and branded by the media as the sole assassin. Now. let's suppose, you are a witness who did see Oswald on the stairs (meaning he couldn't be the killer), what do you do? Don't underestimate the survival instinct of people... Why rock the boat? When the media tells us he did it, who am I to tell them they are wrong and what would be the consequences for me?

There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.


You are way too much interested in reaching a pre-determined conclusion.

What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there.

Finally...  which, of course, destroys your entire argument.

It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Please explain? Probabilities can be subjective.... I really need you to explain this to me as it doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 14, 2020, 09:59:18 AM
I disagree with so much you say here but I'm not sure there's much point getting into it.

Yes, there is a point. I only have an opinion. If that opinion is incorrect, I would love to know about it.

And what opinion is that?

Quote
There is such a thing as a reasonable assumption and it should be used to form an opinion rather than, as you assert, have an opinion and use the assumption to support it.

Let me correct my previous comment. There is indeed a thing as a reasonable assumption, but only in those cases where the assumption has no consequence for the subsequent opinion. In other words; when you wake up in the morning and the streets are wet, it is reasonable to assume that it rained during the night.  It still could be the wrong conclusion as it could also be that a fire hydrant exploded, but it was a reasonable conclusion nevertheless, as it was a conclusion without consequence.

However, as soon as the final outcome is determined by the assumption, it is no longer reasonable.
As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Quote
The Darnell and Wiegman pictures on which a lot of these arguments are concerned take place after the Presidential limo has passed out of sight so your points about everyone being engrossed with the President are invalid.

Wrong. As soon as the shots were fired, it was chaos at Dealey Plaza... The observations of individuals became less reliable, not more reliable. The human brain can only process so much. When the POTUS is killed in front of you, most people hardly pay attention to their surroundings. Instead their main focus is to find out what happened.

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred. No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Quote
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.

I don't ignore anything. A dozen people said they didn't see Oswald, so what? Big deal! When did they say that? Months later, after Oswald was already dead and buried and branded by the media as the sole assassin. Now. let's suppose, you are a witness who did see Oswald on the stairs (meaning he couldn't be the killer), what do you do? Don't underestimate the survival instinct of people... Why rock the boat? When the media tells us he did it, who am I to tell them they are wrong and what would be the consequences for me?

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

Quote
There is a massive difference between one person missing something and a dozen people missing the same thing.
You ignore the witnesses stood behind, alongside and walking right up to 'Oswald' on the steps.


You are way too much interested in reaching a pre-determined conclusion.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there. Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

Quote
What I agree with is that all these witnesses missing 'Oswald' doesn't prove he wasn't there.

Finally...  which, of course, destroys your entire argument.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.

Quote
It's about probabilities which can be subjective so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Please explain? Probabilities can be subjective.... I really need you to explain this to me as it doesn't make sense to me.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2020, 01:56:32 PM
And what opinion is that?
As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred. No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there. Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.

And what opinion is that?

You need to ask? How can you say - as you did earlier - that you disagree with so much I said when you don't even know what I said?

As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Except you're not helping. You are only showing us all that you cleary are confused, to put it mildly. It's beyond hilarious to claim that an assumption somehow can "inform your opinion".

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred.

Playing the semantics game doesn't enhance your credibility. It only shows the level of desperation with which you are trying to cling to your flawed argument. The people on the steps heard the shots and a co-worker (can't remember her name) ran towards them and told them the President had been shot. So, within seconds after the shots they knew what was going on.

No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Where did I claim that people were in shock? That's a strawman! And yes, most likely people did indeed turn to eachother to find out what happened. However, I don't know about you, but if I want to find out what happened I would look in the direction where it happened, rather than turn around and look the other way.

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

You clearly have no understanding of human nature. In your perfect world witnesses will come forward voluntary and without fear, right? Well, your perfect world is fantasia land. In the real world, most people simply don't want to get involved. That's not an assumption, it's a fact. Just ask any detective. It is as true today as it was in the past.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there.

Great... end of discussion then, right?

Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.


My biased attitude? Really?... How pathetic. As for the rest of what you've written; like a dog chasing his own tail, you are going round in circles and are not getting anywhere fast.

On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there.

I am not wasting anymore time on this.... I merely wanted to point out the flaw in your argument, but you can't argue with stubborn. Good luck with trying to prove a meaningless negative. When you are done, I'm sure the real world will welcome you back with open arms..... oh wait, in your book that's an assumption....  :D 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2020, 01:27:28 AM
If we assume prayer-blob is LHO, the problem isn't confined to Lovelady. The majority of the twelve people stood on the TSBD steps as the President passed by knew LHO by sight, as did other employees who would have a clear view of prayer-blob such as O V Campbell and Roy Edward Lewis. In Darnell we see employees streaming back into the building all filing past him. When Baker gets into the lobby he sees "several people standing around" who we can assume are returning employees who have just passed LHO on the steps.
The number of witnesses who recognised LHO on the steps would probably run into double figures. In order to avoid this inconvenience PMZ's have LHO slipping outside quietly at the last minute and taking up a position at the back where he goes unnoticed (lets ignore the employees filing past him). AND THEN, to make the height requirements the same zealots have LHO in this position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbNHtwrg/oswald-on-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here we see him stood in the most awkward position imaginable, blocking part of the steps, in plain view of anyone on the top steps and right in the face of any returning employees. Hardly inconspicuous.
As soon as the FBI started interviewing people they would be hearing statement after statement placing LHO on the top step. All these people would have to be individually threatened and all would have to play along. In terms of mysterious deaths, every single person who witnessed LHO on the steps that day would become a top priority target.
This is all fantasy of course and goes away when we realise Oswald was not on the steps and is not prayer-blob.

Yes, I agree with You, Mr. Dan,  that the one step down position seems a bit awkward.

I  also agreed with the former  Mr. Doyle,  the logical place for a 300 lb fat woman to stand would be  where Prayrblob is for the reasons:

1. Out of everyone else way and not blocking the door
2. Has better LOS to see motorcade
3. Not in the sunlight, thus having hands free to hold the coffee cup carefully with both hands, instead of having to use one hand to shade eyes
4. If it’s a porcelain white coffee cup from the 2nd floor lunchroom, the out of the way corner reduces chance of being bumped into, spilling the coffee and or dropping the cup and it shattering  on the concrete landing

in summary the “fat lady” was self aware and taking precautions to avoid any potential accident or becoming an obstruction to her fellow employees.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 15, 2020, 09:43:01 AM
And what opinion is that?

You need to ask? How can you say - as you did earlier - that you disagree with so much I said when you don't even know what I said?

As I said, the assumption informs your opinion, it doesn't support an already existing opinion. I'm glad I could help.

Except you're not helping. You are only showing us all that you cleary are confused, to put it mildly. It's beyond hilarious to claim that an assumption somehow can "inform your opinion".

Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred.

Playing the semantics game doesn't enhance your credibility. It only shows the level of desperation with which you are trying to cling to your flawed argument. The people on the steps heard the shots and a co-worker (can't remember her name) ran towards them and told them the President had been shot. So, within seconds after the shots they knew what was going on.

No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Where did I claim that people were in shock? That's a strawman! And yes, most likely people did indeed turn to eachother to find out what happened. However, I don't know about you, but if I want to find out what happened I would look in the direction where it happened, rather than turn around and look the other way.

Here we go. What a massive and wild assumption that any potential witnesses refused to answer questions truthfully in order not to 'rock the boat'. I've no doubt you view this as a reasonable assumption but I do not.

You clearly have no understanding of human nature. In your perfect world witnesses will come forward voluntary and without fear, right? Well, your perfect world is fantasia land. In the real world, most people simply don't want to get involved. That's not an assumption, it's a fact. Just ask any detective. It is as true today as it was in the past.

There is no pre-determined conclusion. There is no conclusive evidence on this matter one way or the other. It's a matter of opinion. At no point have I stated that the lack of witness corroboration 'proves' Oswald wasn't there.

Great... end of discussion then, right?

Oswald is not placed there by any witnesses, I think this has relevance so I tried to determine how many potential witnesses might be involved and was surprised by the high number. In my opinion, the higher the number of witnesses the higher the probability Oswald would have been spotted on the steps.

Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there.

This statement reveals your own biased attitude. As I've explained, I'm fully aware there is no conclusive evidence on this matter. It's a matter of opinion based on interpreting the available evidence. You interpret it one way I interpret it another.
I think the probability that Oswald would have been spotted by one of so many witnesses is really high. You don't. I can't put it any simpler than that.


My biased attitude? Really?... How pathetic. As for the rest of what you've written; like a dog chasing his own tail, you are going round in circles and are not getting anywhere fast.

On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there.

I am not wasting anymore time on this.... I merely wanted to point out the flaw in your argument, but you can't argue with stubborn. Good luck with trying to prove a meaningless negative. When you are done, I'm sure the real world will welcome you back with open arms..... oh wait, in your book that's an assumption....  :D

I won't bother with most of your reply as it's utter garbage coming from a truly entrenched mind. But this highlight does need dealing with:

"Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there."
"On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there."


Assuming the prayer-blob is Oswald. He is surrounded by witnesses who know him by sight - some stood behind the glass entrance with a clear view of him, some stood alongside him, some walking past him on the steps. There are about a dozen potential witnesses. Not one of then places him at that position. None of this is opinion, it's testimonial fact which I believe favours the view that it is not Oswald on the steps. But it doesn't 'prove' it's not Oswald.
For you to imagine this is a contradictory position demonstrates the kind of brainpower you have at your disposal.
Don't bother replying.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 15, 2020, 01:48:27 PM
I won't bother with most of your reply as it's utter garbage coming from a truly entrenched mind. But this highlight does need dealing with:

"Hilarious... first you agree that nobody seeing Oswald there doesn't prove he wasn't there, and then you go full contradictio in terminis and argue the opposite. Give it up, will ya! Your opinion is wrong. Even if every single person on the steps did not see Oswald, that still does not prove he wasn't there."
"On the one hand, you agree that a lack of witness corroboration does not prove Oswald wasn't there and then, on the other hand, you argue that, since not one witness, you know of, out of a group of witnesses, saw him, it's probable that he wasn't there."


Assuming the prayer-blob is Oswald. He is surrounded by witnesses who know him by sight - some stood behind the glass entrance with a clear view of him, some stood alongside him, some walking past him on the steps. There are about a dozen potential witnesses. Not one of then places him at that position. None of this is opinion, it's testimonial fact which I believe favours the view that it is not Oswald on the steps. But it doesn't 'prove' it's not Oswald.
For you to imagine this is a contradictory position demonstrates the kind of brainpower you have at your disposal.
Don't bother replying.

Don't bother replying.

Who the hell do you think you are, to tell me what to do?

I won't bother with most of your reply as it's utter garbage coming from a truly entrenched mind.

Never was there a bigger admission of weakness and lack of sound arguments!

As for you rest of moronic comments, you can try to weasel your way out of it is much as you want, but the facts are and remain simple; Oswald was there or he wasn't. Period!

When you agree that the lack of witness corroboration does not prove he wasn't there, you can not use that same lack of witness corroboration to argue that he probably wasn't there! Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! It's simply pathetic that you don't understand the contradiction in your stupid argument.

Bring me witnesses who say it was somebody else there and you might have a point, but until you do all you've got is wishful thinking, pure speculation and a hollow argument and that ain't much, but I seriously doubt that your delusional mind is able to comprehend that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2020, 02:14:27 AM
Yes, I agree with You, Mr. Dan,  that the one step down position seems a bit awkward.

I  also agreed with the former  Mr. Doyle,  the logical place for a 300 lb fat woman to stand would be  where Prayrblob is for the reasons:

1. Out of everyone else way and not blocking the door
2. Has better LOS to see motorcade
3. Not in the sunlight, thus having hands free to hold the coffee cup carefully with both hands, instead of having to use one hand to shade eyes
4. If it’s a porcelain white coffee cup from the 2nd floor lunchroom, the out of the way corner reduces chance of being bumped into, spilling the coffee and or dropping the cup and it shattering  on the concrete landing

in summary the “fat lady” was self aware and taking precautions to avoid any potential accident or becoming an obstruction to her fellow employees.

There are some commonsense assumptions here but I'd like to make a quick point about the white porcelain cup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbz07Mvc/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
This Gif shows two images from Wiegman. It shows the white 'glowing' object being moved up and down. The first frame is the one that shows the object being held up to the face of prayer-blob, the second has the object in the lower position. In his WC testimony Bill Shelley states he went for lunch about 11:50am, went to his office on the first floor and ate part of his lunch then went out front, on the landing of the steps just outside the glass door because their were already some people outside, one of whom was Sarah Stanton.
How long does it take Shelley to get to his room and eat part of his lunch? 10 to 15 minutes seems fairly reasonable, which would mean Stanton is out there already by 12:00 to 12:05pm. The above Wiegman frames are taken seconds after the shooting around 12:30. It's just an opinion but I'm not convinced Stanton would still be drinking her coffee up to half an hour later. Maybe she liked it cold and made it last a long time. Maybe she went back up to the second floor lunchroom and came back down with a coffee just before the shooting.
Personally I have a different idea about the object in prayer-blob's hand but the images are so sketchy I find it impossible to be definitive.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 16, 2020, 11:51:47 PM
Wrong. The people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on as the Presidential limo was out of sight at the time of the shooting. The POTUS was not killed in front of them. This observation demonstrates a tenuous grasp on what actually occurred. No-one was in shock on the steps in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it was only when other employees began to return that those on the steps began to understand what had happened. In all probability the people on the steps were turning to each other wondering what was going on.

Hang on.  The very same frame has who you claim is Gloria Calvery already on the steps telling everyone that she saw the president shot.  You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 12:02:47 AM
Assuming the prayer-blob is Oswald. He is surrounded by witnesses who know him by sight - some stood behind the glass entrance with a clear view of him, some stood alongside him, some walking past him on the steps. There are about a dozen potential witnesses. Not one of then places him at that position. None of this is opinion, it's testimonial fact which I believe favours the view that it is not Oswald on the steps.

How many of these "dozen potential witnesses" mentioned seeing Sarah Stanton (or anybody else by name) standing in that spot?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 12:07:22 AM
How long does it take Shelley to get to his room and eat part of his lunch? 10 to 15 minutes seems fairly reasonable, which would mean Stanton is out there already by 12:00 to 12:05pm. The above Wiegman frames are taken seconds after the shooting around 12:30. It's just an opinion but I'm not convinced Stanton would still be drinking her coffee up to half an hour later. Maybe she liked it cold and made it last a long time. Maybe she went back up to the second floor lunchroom and came back down with a coffee just before the shooting.

LOL. You start with the unproven premise that it's Stanton and then use that assumption to argue that she wouldn't be drinking a cup of coffee.

Unless it's not Stanton.  Or coffee.  Or a cigarette for that matter.  Do you even know if Stanton smoked?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2020, 02:18:56 AM
How many of these "dozen potential witnesses" mentioned seeing Sarah Stanton (or anybody else by name) standing in that spot?

Come on John.

Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Sarah Stanton?
A: None
Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Oswald?
A: All of them
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2020, 02:32:42 AM
LOL. You start with the unproven premise that it's Stanton and then use that assumption to argue that she wouldn't be drinking a cup of coffee.

Unless it's not Stanton.  Or coffee.  Or a cigarette for that matter.  Do you even know if Stanton smoked?
More misrepresentation.
I'm not starting with any unproven assumption. The part you leave out (as usual) is that I'm responding to and disagreeing with Zeon's assumption that Stanton (the 300lb fat lady) is drinking a cup of coffee.
I know you know this but you choose to misrepresent.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2020, 02:39:07 AM
Hang on.  The very same frame has who you claim is Gloria Calvery already on the steps telling everyone that she saw the president shot.  You can't have it both ways.
Even by your high standards of misrepresentation this stands out.
In the post you refer to I state that the President was not shot in front of the steps of the TSBD and that the people stood there only started to find out from returning employees (ie: Gloria Calvery).
What on earth do you mean I "can't have it both ways"? What do you mean by "the very same frame"?
What, exactly, are you talking about?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 17, 2020, 05:53:14 PM
Even by your high standards of misrepresentation this stands out.
In the post you refer to I state that the President was not shot in front of the steps of the TSBD and that the people stood there only started to find out from returning employees (ie: Gloria Calvery).
What on earth do you mean I "can't have it both ways"? What do you mean by "the very same frame"?
What, exactly, are you talking about?

If you don't know or understand what John is talking about exactly, how can you call it a "misrepresentation"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 17, 2020, 06:05:25 PM
Come on John.

Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Sarah Stanton?
A: None
Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Oswald?
A: All of them

The TSBD employees were asked, March 1964, if they had seen Oswald when the shots were fired or when Kennedy was shot!

As is very often the case, the quality of the question determines the quality of the answer.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 07:23:20 PM
Come on John.

Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Sarah Stanton?
A: None
Q: How many TSBD employees were asked if they'd seen Oswald?
A: All of them

4 or 5 months after the fact, some of which conflicted with prior or later statements.  Carolyn Arnold's March 18 statement, for example, said only "I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President Kennedy was shot".

As Martin astutely points out, we're not privy to what the question actually was.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2020, 07:28:42 PM
Even by your high standards of misrepresentation this stands out.
In the post you refer to I state that the President was not shot in front of the steps of the TSBD and that the people stood there only started to find out from returning employees (ie: Gloria Calvery).
What on earth do you mean I "can't have it both ways"? What do you mean by "the very same frame"?
What, exactly, are you talking about?

The Darnell frame in which Tommy Graves argued to your satisfaction that Gloria Calvery was up on the steps telling everybody about the shooting.  This is the same moment in time that you are also arguing that "the people stood on the steps didn't know what was going on", in order to argue with Martin's postulate that the people on the steps may not realize who was around them because of the stress of the moment.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2020, 05:13:28 PM
Friends, we have known for some time now that all the 'Fritz notes' of Mr Oswald's interrogations are not his own notes---------------

Though they are indeed in Captain Fritz's handwriting, they derive their contents from FBI Agent James Bookhout's series of solo reports.

However, p. 1 has always presented an anomaly, as it does not correspond nearly as closely as the other pages to the first published Bookhout solo report.

Well! There's a curious feature on this p.1 that gives us a clue as to how all the 'Fritz notes' came to be written down:

(https://i.imgur.com/gf4Q6M4.jpg)

Captain Fritz is not copying or digesting directly from a written source he has in front of him. No---------he is scribbling this stuff down as he listens. Hence a) the ridiculous misspelling (unthinkable from a trained FBI agent!) of 'writing' as 'wrighting'; b) the phonetic first attempt at the unfamiliar name 'Bookhout' ("B.O.").

Conclusion!

Captain Fritz is either listening to someone reading out a report or listening to the playback of a dictated report.

Either way, he is not copying down Agent Bookhout's contemporaneous notes (i.e. notes taken during the actual session).

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2020, 10:39:32 PM
  No---------he is scribbling this stuff down as he listens
By his own admission ..that is not true.
The scribble is from memory [some time later] Maybe that evening.
There was no recording.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 20, 2020, 12:11:21 PM
By his own admission ..that is not true.
The scribble is from memory [some time later] Maybe that evening.
There was no recording.

No recording of what?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 20, 2020, 04:58:42 PM
Now!

We know from Agent Hosty's handwritten draft report that Mr Oswald--------------in that first interrogation--------------told Captain Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade".

However, in the first published interrogation report-----------------the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty-----------------this fact is carefully danced around: Mr Oswald with helpful vagueness merely gave "first floor" as his location when Mr Kennedy passed the building. Furthermore, the name "Bill Shelley" is studiously avoided. But! We see it here handwritten at the top:

(https://i.imgur.com/plAAydL.jpg)

Mr Shelley is relevant to but cannot be mentioned in this report of Mr Oswald's first interrogation.

In Agent Bookhout's subsequent solo report, Mr Shelley's name is included but in a way that suppresses the true context in which Mr Oswald named him.

What is that true context? Why, Mr Oswald names Mr Shelley as someone who was out on the front steps at the time he (Mr Oswald) went out there-------------i.e. at the time of the shooting.

But there were plenty of people out on those front steps at the time. So why does Mr Oswald single Mr Shelley out for special mention?

Apart from the obvious fact that Mr Shelley is his supervisor, there's also this fact to consider:

Just over an hour previously, Mr Oswald has been brought into the Homicide Office:

(https://i.imgur.com/3g0ip3I.gif)

In this footage, we see that he is not brought straight into the back room. The reason is that there is already someone in there having their statement taken. That person we know from the documentary record to be Mr Bill Shelley. The room must be cleared before Mr Oswald can be brought in.

Had the camera kept filming this scene a little longer, we would see Mr Shelley being brought out of the back room, right in front of Mr Oswald, and Mr Oswald then being brought in.

Mr Oswald therefore has seen Mr Shelley at DPD HQ and now, in interrogation, is-----------sensibly enough-----------naming him as someone from whom Captain Fritz can easily ask for confirmation of Mr Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the shooting: front steps.

Small wonder Mr Shelley is designated a Key Person at the top of that first interrogation report!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 25, 2020, 06:26:43 AM
What’s really confusing is Bill Shelly WC testimony vs Charles Givens WC testimony

Shelly says to the effect he saw Oswald at 10 till 12 When Shelly WENT DOWN to the 1st floor to eat his lunch.

There was oddly no follow up
question to Shelly to
more specifically state if that meant  seeing Oswald “on the 1st floor at 10 till 12 or on the 6th floor

Givens WC testimony is agreeing with the time 11:55 of seeing Oswald on 6th floor after having seen him at 11:45 on the 5th floor as all others from
6th floor were taking elevator down at which time allegedly, Oswald shouted to send elevator back up. And Givens then goes back up to get cigarettes he left and sees Oswald and Oswald says AGAIN?! to
Send elevator back up rather than ride down with Givens. WTF???

Me thinks somebody is a BS Lion

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2020, 08:26:09 PM
Givens originally told the FBI that he saw Oswald on the first floor in the domino room at 11:50.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 25, 2020, 08:41:22 PM
Eddie Piper has him on the first floor at noon:

    Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
    Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
    Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2020, 04:57:29 AM
Imo, Oswald’s reason to speak to Piper at 12pm was to inform Piper that Oswald was going “out” . This in order that should Truly direct PIper to go find Oswald , would spare Piper wasting time searching floors and would inform Truly that Oswald was unavailable , having left the building

It would be unnecessary for Oswald to inform Piper of “going back up” , since Piper’s job is mainly to find employees  Inside the building as  directed by Truly. Piper, unless informed of departure from the building by an employee, would thus naturally search the floors on presumption the employee was still in the building.

If the “going out” statement is more probable one made by Oswald, then the reason Is likely to get his lunch either from inside the paper bag package Oswald put somewhere in the annex roofed part of loading dock or to go buy some lunch

Either way, between 12:01 ans 12:14, Oswald is not seen on the 1st floor.

At 12:15 approx , Oswald is seen sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom
By Carolyn Arnold

This suggests the following speculative timeline

12:01 Oswald has left TSBD to go “out” possibly to buy his lunch. The temperature is about 65 with wind gust up to 15mph , so if Oswald was acclimated to Texas 90 degree plus temperature , wearing his brown shirt and jacket to go outside is reasonably probable

12:10 Oswald is returning to TSBD with his lunch and from
some distance away, sees James Jarman and Harold Norman exiting back door of TSBD dock as they go around the NE corner of TSBD. They do not see Oswald however, as they are facing SE heading along Houston st.

12:12, Oswald enters TSBD and ascends to 2nd floor landing to check if the 2nd floor lunchroom is clear. He may have been seen by Sarah Stanton at this time carrying a Dr. Pepper ( vaguely remembered by a relative of Sarah  as a “Pepsi”) Oswald therefore went up the staircase to 3rd floor, waited a few more minutes , then came back down and saw the 2nd floor lunchroom clear

12:14 Oswald sits down at a table in the 2nd floor lunch room, and takes off both his jacket and brown shirt together , leaving shirt sleeves inside the jacket sleeves, as is very easy for slender person with oversize jacket and shirt to do. Jacket and shirt left therefore hanging on the back of the chair.

12:15 Oswald seen sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom , by Carolyn Arnold
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2020, 05:48:04 AM
How is the Zeon proposed timeline relevant to the statement   “went outside to watch the P. Parade?

In becomes relevant if the Mrs Reid encounter with Oswald in just a white T-shirt and carrying an unopened coke in hand is an encounter happening BEFORE Oswald meets Baker/Truly

If Oswald was in 2nd floor lunchroom
In just a T-shirt, having removed jacket and Brownshirt together , from
12:15 to 12:30, then it is probable he heard sirens going off about 10 secs post shots and more sirens added by 20 secs post shots. If Oswald had just bought a coke from the machine at the moment that sirens were heard, that might explain not immediately opening the bottle at the machine, and would also explain why Oswald went into the office in just his T-shirt and carrying the unopened bottle with him. Oswald was simply making a quick check of the office to ask about the sirens.

Contrary to Mrs Reid’s statement implying simultaneous opening of doors by herself (front) and Oswald (rear) , it is more probable that Oswald had already entered the office about 20 secs prior to Mrs Reid entering approx 50 sec post shots

Given Mrs Reid’s description of Mr Campbell leaving her and seeing people BEGINNING to fall, this would occur approx not later that 5 sec post shots as people can be seen in Z-film and Nix film  (Hudson, Newman’s etc)

Therefore , if Mrs Reid has left the curb on Elm st by 10 sec post shots, she could easily have made it back to the 2nd floor office front door by 50 to 60 sec post shots

An encounter with Oswald therefore as Oswald has already traversed about 75 ft (3/4ths) across the floor, would explain Oswald simply continuing forward and past Mrs Reid to exit the front office door approx 60 sec post shots

At this point,  60 secs post shots Oswald now has found the answer to why the sirens are still on going. This is when he decides to “go out to see what was happening in the P. Parade”

However. Before Oswald does this, he decides he should go back to the lunchroom to get his brown shirt and jacket. Thus, Oswald travels down the outer hallways (80ft) , passes thru  the vestibule going thru 2 doors, at approx 80-85 sec post shots. The opening anclosing of 2 doors with windows cause the flickering of light which was the stimulus that caught Bakers eye , and he moved over to see Oswald walking “away” in the lunchroom

Oswald was walking TOWARDs the table and chair that he left his jacket and shirt together hanging on back of chair, thus why he was walking “away” from Baker.

5 sec later approx, as Baker enters the lunchroom Oswald has

A. Put down the unopened coke he was carrying on a counter top or table , a necessary action in order to put on jacket and shirt . This neither Baker, nor Truly saw anything in Oswalds hands

B. The jacket and shirt has just been put on in 5 seconds as is possible for slender person like Oswald to do if jacket and shirt were oversized. This the perception by Baker if a jacket/ shirt “loosely” hanging.

Why did not Geneva Hines see Oswald the skeptic asks? Because Geneva Hone was in the room she finally was able to get into to look out a SE window at the motorcade. And that room was the SE corner 2nd floor women’s restroom
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2020, 05:54:43 AM
Therefore, if the reader has skipped thru Zion’s theoretical Alternative Teid encounter, the Conclusion is that the “went out to watch the P. parade” statement is not exactly what Oswald may have stated while being interrogated. It is also possible that Oswald DID actually mention an encounter with Mrs Reid describing a sequence similar to Zeon’s deductive timeline and this was purposely omitted by Fritz
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2020, 11:50:58 AM
At this point,  60 secs post shots Oswald now has found the answer to why the sirens are still on going. This is when he decides to “go out to see what was happening in the P. Parade”

If you're going to peddle a fantasy, Mr Mason, don't put fake quote marks around it!

"Then went outside to watch P. Parade."

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 28, 2020, 01:37:07 AM

12:10 Oswald is returning to TSBD with his lunch and from
some distance away, sees James Jarman and Harold Norman exiting back door of TSBD dock as they go around the NE corner of TSBD. They do not see Oswald however, as they are facing SE heading along Houston st.


Where do you get the idea Jarman and Norman exited the 'back door' from?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on October 01, 2020, 06:12:09 AM
There are some commonsense assumptions here but I'd like to make a quick point about the white porcelain cup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbz07Mvc/Shadow-Person-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
This Gif shows two images from Wiegman. It shows the white 'glowing' object being moved up and down. The first frame is the one that shows the object being held up to the face of prayer-blob, the second has the object in the lower position. In his WC testimony Bill Shelley states he went for lunch about 11:50am, went to his office on the first floor and ate part of his lunch then went out front, on the landing of the steps just outside the glass door because their were already some people outside, one of whom was Sarah Stanton.
How long does it take Shelley to get to his room and eat part of his lunch? 10 to 15 minutes seems fairly reasonable, which would mean Stanton is out there already by 12:00 to 12:05pm. The above Wiegman frames are taken seconds after the shooting around 12:30. It's just an opinion but I'm not convinced Stanton would still be drinking her coffee up to half an hour later. Maybe she liked it cold and made it last a long time. Maybe she went back up to the second floor lunchroom and came back down with a coffee just before the shooting.
Personally I have a different idea about the object in prayer-blob's hand but the images are so sketchy I find it impossible to be definitive.

 :D :D :D

More phony Sarah Stanton claims again.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 01, 2020, 10:08:27 AM
:D :D :D

More phony Sarah Stanton claims again.

Wow.

The post you cited is over two weeks old and 24 replies ago. That's real finger-on-the-pulse stuff right there  8)

I assume you're a fat-Oswald-on-the-steps kind of guy. Good old fat, invisible, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Maybe you're the one who can provide at least one tiny piece of evidence that puts Oswald on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
I doubt it though.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on October 01, 2020, 10:14:21 AM

 That Stanton nonsense was debunked long ago. Sad that some still believe it.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 01, 2020, 10:29:21 AM
That Stanton nonsense was debunked long ago. Sad that some still believe it.

Fred

Nice one. Can you point out to me where it was debunked and I'll drop it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 01, 2020, 08:17:52 PM
I assume you're a fat-Oswald-on-the-steps kind of guy. Good old fat, invisible, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Like you've demonstrated that prayer-blob is fat.   :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2020, 03:07:23 AM
Like you've demonstrated that prayer-blob is fat.   :D
Sure looks fat to me  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LNPbRmh/shadow2-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on October 02, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
Right here on this forum. Look up earlier threads and posts by John and Alan.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2020, 10:59:01 AM
Right here on this forum. Look up earlier threads and posts by John and Alan.

Fred
That's really vague Fred. Rather than have me spend days trawling through the forum just tell me what it is that debunks the Stanton ID. You're the one who said it's been debunked so obviously you know.
Unless, of course, you know nothing about it which would make your claim rather strange.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2020, 11:53:51 AM
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.0.html)



https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html)


Fred

Still hours of reading Fred (which I will get to in my own time).
Just tell me what it is that debunks the Stanton ID or say you don't know.
But don't claim something like that when you don't know, then pretend that you do.
It's important that avenues of investigation aren't shut off for no reason. I think the claim for it being Oswald on the steps is non-existent. There is literally nothing to make the ID yet others are quite ferocious in their defence of this non-idea. It smacks of intellectual bullying (I use the word 'intellectual' very loosely).
The case for Stanton as prayer-blob is many times more superior to that of Oswald (IMHO) but it seems like those who shout the loudest are the ones who get heard.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 04, 2020, 03:02:15 AM
Still hours of reading Fred (which I will get to in my own time).
Just tell me what it is that debunks the Stanton ID or say you don't know.
But don't claim something like that when you don't know, then pretend that you do.
It's important that avenues of investigation aren't shut off for no reason. I think the claim for it being Oswald on the steps is non-existent. There is literally nothing to make the ID yet others are quite ferocious in their defence of this non-idea. It smacks of intellectual bullying (I use the word 'intellectual' very loosely).
The case for Stanton as prayer-blob is many times more superior to that of Oswald (IMHO) but it seems like those who shout the loudest are the ones who get heard.
Mr O'meara:
There's still a search function on this site, I do believe.

Also, for a guy who just joined this site in..June? of this year, you certainly seem to have strong opinions and, by your own account, a great deal of knowledge.
Have you been researching the JFK assassination for a lot longer than 4 months, through other means?

For the record, the Sarah Stanton, Prayer Man, whomever is a pointless diversion, as is any attempt to ascertain what went on in Oswald's interrogation; those that were present certainly shared less than the truth, there's no audio recording, and everybody involved is long dead.

Before I even thought of joining one of these JFK sites, let alone commenting, I spent several years reading. And reading. And reading.

But, "you shine on, you crazy diamond."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 04, 2020, 04:44:07 AM
Returning to Alan Fords theory , (as I apologize for my own theory interrupting such),  may I offer the option that Oswald never actually stepped outside of the TSBD entrance door , and that he was actually just inside the glass partition and that his image might have been captured in the original Weigman film, thus the reason for any shadowing added (if it’s truly alteration as opposed to simply a film processing glitche)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 04, 2020, 02:40:03 PM
Mr O'meara:
There's still a search function on this site, I do believe.

Also, for a guy who just joined this site in..June? of this year, you certainly seem to have strong opinions and, by your own account, a great deal of knowledge.
Have you been researching the JFK assassination for a lot longer than 4 months, through other means?

For the record, the Sarah Stanton, Prayer Man, whomever is a pointless diversion, as is any attempt to ascertain what went on in Oswald's interrogation; those that were present certainly shared less than the truth, there's no audio recording, and everybody involved is long dead.

Before I even thought of joining one of these JFK sites, let alone commenting, I spent several years reading. And reading. And reading.

But, "you shine on, you crazy diamond."

No need to be aggressive John.

Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected)
But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 04, 2020, 04:53:28 PM
No need to be aggressive John.

Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected)
But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility.

Good one
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 04, 2020, 07:17:11 PM
Sure looks fat to me  8)

Well, I guess that settles it!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 04, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
This is exactly the poisonous attitude I'm taking a stand against. Just because Doyle was hated by other researchers then anything he advocated is 'wrong'. I totally disagree with this mentality.
You can make as many of your snide comments as you wish John but if you don't think the case for Stanton being prayer-blob is superior to the case for Oswald being prayer-blob then say so.

It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 05, 2020, 03:50:15 AM
No need to be aggressive John.

Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected)
But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility.
Mr O'meara: there was nothing " aggressive" in my post.

The " search" function is still functioning.

You seem to have missed the point of my post.
Operating on the maxim " the fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool" ( The Bard), I chose to educate myself.
You are welcome to come here, and speak freely.
Your questions were answered, long ago, by folks much wiser than I will ever be.
Your complaint about " having to search through lengthy threads" speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 05, 2020, 08:27:06 AM
It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up.
Please remind me which arguments I've used that were either false or made up concerning the identification of Stanton. I'm assuming that's what you think as I'm "as bad as Doyle".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 06, 2020, 02:06:43 AM
As far as I know, you've claimed no evidence other than that you think it looks like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 06, 2020, 08:54:35 AM
As far as I know, you've claimed no evidence other than that you think it looks like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.
You have an incredibly short memory John.
I composed a list of witnesses who were stood behind, alongside and in front of prayer-blob and of those who, on returning to the TSBD, would've have walked right by that position:

Judy McCully
Buell Wesley Frazier
Bill Shelley
Billt Lovelady
Joe Molina
Pauline Sanders
Otis Williams
Roy Edward Lewis
Roy Truly
Karen Westbrook
Karen Hicks
Gloria Calvery
Carol Reed
Georgia Hendirx
Jeraldean Reid
Carolyn Arnold

16 witnesses, all who knew Oswald by sight, all with an excellent opportunity to see Oswald in the prayer-blob position and all who, when specifically asked if they saw Oswald around the time of the assassination, denied seeing him.
I argued that, if it had been Oswald in the prayer-blob position, it would have been incredibly unlikely that not one of these witnesses put him there. You, of course, twisted my words (no shock there) to make out I was arguing that that if none of these witnesses saw him there then he wasn't there, even though I'd specifically stated that was not my argument, that I was arguing for the unlikelihood of such a scenario.
Don't you remember John?
It wasn't that long ago  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 06, 2020, 11:11:29 PM
What you think is "unlikely" is not evidence of anything.

And I'm not sure how witnesses not remembering seeing Oswald tells you that prayer-blob is Sarah Stanton.

And by the way, your list is contrived, because you don't know if prayer-blob was in position when most of these people returned to the building, because you don't know when they returned to the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 07, 2020, 01:53:58 AM
And by the way, your list is contrived, because you don't know if prayer-blob was in position when most of these people returned to the building, because you don't know when they returned to the building.

"most of these people" were stood around the prayer-blob position at the time of the assassination (10 to be precise)
Of those who returned to the building, Truly arrived within seconds, as did Gloria Calvery and co. who ran back to the TSBD after the shooting, as did Ruth Hendrix.

Quote
What you think is "unlikely" is not evidence of anything.

Typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I stated my opinion constitutes evidence. What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

Quote
And I'm not sure how witnesses not remembering seeing Oswald tells you that prayer-blob is Sarah Stanton.

Another typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I suggested that because not one of these many witnesses didn't see Oswald on the steps, this means it must be Sarah Stanton. Nowhere.

So looking forward to your next serving of  BS:

(https://i.postimg.cc/X7XvCQX0/Calvery-misidentification-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 07, 2020, 03:11:09 AM
"most of these people" were stood around the prayer-blob position at the time of the assassination (10 to be precise)
Of those who returned to the building, Truly arrived within seconds, as did Gloria Calvery and co. who ran back to the TSBD after the shooting, as did Ruth Hendrix.

Bull.  You don't know how many seconds it took Calvery to run back.  Or Westbrook, or Hicks, or Reid, or Arnold.

Quote
Typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I stated my opinion constitutes evidence. What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

Another typical  BS: meaningless statement. Nowhere have I suggested that because not one of these many witnesses didn't see Oswald on the steps, this means it must be Sarah Stanton. Nowhere.

Then your entire post is one giant non-sequitur, because you posted it in response to my saying that every bit of evidence that Doyle presented for prayer-blob being Stanton was false or made-up, then you asked me what evidence you've provided for prayer-blob being Stanton that was false or made-up and I replied that you have provided none other than that you thought it looked like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.  Then you went off in the weeds and started talking about whether people saw Oswald or not.

So the  BS: here is all coming from you.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 07, 2020, 07:55:43 PM
Bull.  You don't know how many seconds it took Calvery to run back.  Or Westbrook, or Hicks, or Reid, or Arnold.

Calvery and co. are back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished.

Quote
Then your entire post is one giant non-sequitur, because you posted it in response to my saying that every bit of evidence that Doyle presented for prayer-blob being Stanton was false or made-up, then you asked me what evidence you've provided for prayer-blob being Stanton that was false or made-up and I replied that you have provided none other than that you thought it looked like a fat lady smoking a cigarette.  Then you went off in the weeds and started talking about whether people saw Oswald or not.

So the  BS: here is all coming from you.

Just to clarify the situation. You posted:

"It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up."

As you were comparing me to Doyle I asked "which arguments I've used that were either false or made up ". Because you couldn't find such any arguments, rather than say so you introduce the word "evidence". A typical  BS: tactic on your behalf.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 07, 2020, 10:44:46 PM
Calvery and co. are back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished.

So you claim, based on yet another dubious identification.  By the way, who exactly is "and co."?

Quote
Just to clarify the situation. You posted:

"It has nothing to do with Doyle being “hated by other researchers”. It’s because every single argument he made in favor of prayer-blob being Stanton was either false or made-up."

As you were comparing me to Doyle

When did I compare you to Doyle?  I just said that you're the only one here who agrees with his unsubstantiated conclusion about prayer-blob.

Quote
I asked "which arguments I've used that were either false or made up ". Because you couldn't find such any arguments, rather than say so you introduce the word "evidence". A typical  BS: tactic on your behalf.

I never said you used any arguments that are false or made up -- I said that Doyle did.  You didn't claim to have any actual evidence for prayer-blob being Stanton.  Just that you imagine that it looks like a "fat lady".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 08, 2020, 04:10:59 AM
Mr O'meara: Buell Wesley Frazier was interrogated and bullied by Fritz and friends for several hours on Friday night. His statements are worthless; he was just trying to save his own a#$. ( Not that I blame him; Fritz and Henry railroaded many innocent folks to the penitentiary...and beyond.)

What about the janitor on the ground floor? He places Oswald by the  "glass doors" in front, less than one minute after the assassination. I believe it's Eddie Piper?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 08:56:26 AM
So you claim, based on yet another dubious identification.  By the way, who exactly is "and co."?

Dubious? How so?
At the time of the assassination Gloria Calvery is stood feet away from the President as the first shot hits him. With her are Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook and Carol Reed, work colleagues from room 203 in the TSBD. These ladies are the "and co'"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 08:58:57 AM
Mr O'meara: Buell Wesley Frazier was interrogated and bullied by Fritz and friends for several hours on Friday night. His statements are worthless; he was just trying to save his own a#$. ( Not that I blame him; Fritz and Henry railroaded many innocent folks to the penitentiary...and beyond.)

What about the janitor on the ground floor? He places Oswald by the  "glass doors" in front, less than one minute after the assassination. I believe it's Eddie Piper?

Hi John,

Would really like to know more about this janitor who saw Oswald by the glass doors less than a minute after the assassination. Where can I find out about this as I feel it might be important.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 05:13:44 PM
Dubious? How so?

It's literally based on Tommy Graves squinting and imagining that he's seeing a stripe on her "skirt".  Never mind the fact that he doesn't actually know what Calvery was wearing that day.

Quote
At the time of the assassination Gloria Calvery is stood feet away from the President as the first shot hits him. With her are Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook and Carol Reed, work colleagues from room 203 in the TSBD. These ladies are the "and co'"

Yes, and how did you identify Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 07:46:29 PM
It's literally based on Tommy Graves squinting and imagining that he's seeing a stripe on her "skirt".  Never mind the fact that he doesn't actually know what Calvery was wearing that day.

Not really. Tommy and Sandy Larsen have put together a compelling argument for the identification of Calvery based on testimonial/photographic/video evidence. It's not, as you constantly suggest, a question of trying to identify anyone directly from the Darnell clip.

Quote
Yes, and how did you identify Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds?

Karen Westbrook Scranton talks about them returning to the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 08:22:32 PM
Not really. Tommy and Sandy Larsen have put together a compelling argument for the identification of Calvery based on testimonial/photographic/video evidence. It's not, as you constantly suggest, a question of trying to identify anyone directly from the Darnell clip.

Yes really.  The "compelling argument" is that they think they see a stripe.

Quote
Karen Westbrook Scranton talks about them returning to the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

When did she say who she returned with or how quickly?  But it's interesting that you bring up Westbrook, since she identified herself and Calvery in the Z film in a different spot than where Tommy Graves wants them to be.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 09:27:15 PM

When did she say who she returned with or how quickly?


She refers to herself and her work colleagues collectively when she says "We returned to the building", at some point after that she refers to running into the TSBD

Quote
But it's interesting that you bring up Westbrook, since she identified herself and Calvery in the Z film in a different spot than where Tommy Graves wants them to be.
The only interesting thing is that she doesn't know Gloria Calverys' name. She identifies two Carols when one remained in the office. She identifies Carol Reed as the non-caucasian Stella Jacobs.
What's really interesting is that you brought this non-identification up. Is this your preference for the Calvery ID?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 10:03:59 PM
She refers to herself and her work colleagues collectively when she says "We returned to the building",

You don't know who "we" refers to.

Quote
at some point after that she refers to running into the TSBD

Right.  No indication of how soon after the shots.

Quote
The only interesting thing is that she doesn't know Gloria Calverys' name.

She refers to her as "Calver" or possibly "Calvert".  But she worked with her every day and knew her well in 1963.

Quote
She identifies two Carols when one remained in the office. She identifies Carol Reed as the non-caucasian Stella Jacobs.

Correction:  she refers to a person who you are speculating to be Stella Jacobs as "I believe that's Carol Ann Reed".  There's no doubt in her mind that the person standing next to her is Gloria.  Could she possibly be wrong?  Sure.  But she's more authoritative than speculation from Squinty McSquinterton.

Quote
What's really interesting is that you brought this non-identification up. Is this your preference for the Calvery ID?

I brought it up because you trotted out Westbrook to support your claim that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, Reed were "back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished", even though Westbrook said nothing of the kind.  Then you turned around and accused her of misindentifying people.  So is she an authoritative source in your mind or not?  Or just when it suits you?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 08, 2020, 10:27:40 PM
You don't know who "we" refers to.

The "we" can only refer to her work colleagues

Quote
Right.  No indication of how soon after the shots.

You've misunderstood what I was saying. At some point later in the interview she refers to running

Quote
I brought it up because you trotted out Westbrook to support your claim that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, Reed were "back at the TSBD steps in less than 30 seconds after the shooting has finished", even though Westbrook said nothing of the kind.

She states that immediately after the shots there was pandemonium which is when they returned to the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2020, 10:56:47 PM
The "we" can only refer to her work colleagues

All "We" has to mean is her and at least one other unspecified person.

Quote
She states that immediately after the shots there was pandemonium which is when they returned to the building.

Sorry, no.  She doesn't say that she returned to the building during the "pandemonium".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 09, 2020, 07:37:10 PM
All "We" has to mean is her and at least one other unspecified person.

In her interview Westbrook refers to herself and her work colleagues collectively over and over again. Here are a handful of examples, there are many more:
"...and because it was towards the end of the parade we knew that we could go down a little bit close to the underpass...we could stand directly on the kerb and get a first-hand view."
"...the car kind of came a little bit closer to the kerb where we were standing."
"...we were waving and screaming and so excited."
"We were on the kerb here, and she was leaning over the President and pulling her hair out of her eyes as they were waving to us,"

She is clearly referring to herself and her work colleagues. It is unreasonable to assume otherwise.

Quote
Sorry, no.  She doesn't say that she returned to the building during the "pandemonium".

"...there was a quiet calm while the shots were fired and then, when everybody realised the shots were fired, the car sped on, then it erupted in pandemonium and everybody started running every place, so we came back to the building..."

We're definitely going to have to disagree on that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on October 10, 2020, 01:15:58 AM

The roof door was locked from the inside and could only be opened by someone on the inside which is what they did.[/b]

My response: How do you explain away the fact that it was locked from the inside when Dallas Sheriff John Wiseman got there IF the lying rooftop tandem were really upon the roof as they said? There is no other explanation but they simply lied. It's that simple really.

Moreover, Baker further steps into his own horse manure (Oops) by sharing that he also saw Inspector Sawyer (at the same time he was suppose to be upon that otherwise locked roof w/Roy Truly. Inspector Sawyer merely spent from 12:34PM to 12:37PM on his sojourn into the building, up to the 4th floor via an elevator at the front entrance of the building and back down again. His words, Mr. Nessan, not mine. Do the math yourself sir: the lying rooftop tandem said they were upon the roof no more than 10 minutes. So, they want us to believe two impossibilities:

*(1) They magically Locked the roof from the inside while also stationed upon their lie (the roof); and, (2) Baker is so magical he says he encounters Inspector Sawyer while still upon that same lie 3x the amount of time the Inspector is anywhere for him to encounter.

My apologies for late response (originally posed to me way back upon the 30th page of this thread). Found myself sidetracked with a closer examination upon the Charles Mentesana film, where I believe I may have found the wrongly accused lingering around in Dealey Plaza for the 5-10 minutes he said he did w/Bill Shelley.

Should you make a response, here's fair warning sir, I won't be in to respond until next month. For now I will continue to study the Mentesana film ====>


where I'm paying close attention between the 39 sec to 45 sec mark. There's two gentlemen standing together on the lower right-hand side of the screen. Though one is wearing a suit like Bill Shelley, aside from his hairdo style, there's not much there to go on; but my main attention is upon the individual standing to his left wearing similar clothing as the wrongly accused when compared to the Texas Theatre images of his arrest.

Perhaps someone with the means to do so could reach out to Marina Oswald-Porter to share the Mentesana film with her... tp make a determination one way or the other given the man's peculiar mannerisms (hands on the hips posture etc). Meanwhile, I will be making every effort to freeze a few of the frames to match his head shape and rear hairline to the images of the wrongly accused as he is being escorted into DPD headquarters. 

Again, Mr. Nessan, the lying rooftop tandem lied about their exploits upon that otherwise locked roof ---->

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

Name of Compainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy

Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date Nov 23, 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I asks some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor.


The lying rooftop tandem also lied about a phantom 2nd floor encounter w/the wrongly accused as well. If you do nothing else, Mr. Nessan, please read Baker's same day affidavit over and over again ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


The wrongly accused merely weighed 130lbs, nowhere near 160; moreover, what part of walking away from a stairway has anything to do with inside the lunchroom?




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 10, 2020, 02:28:12 AM
Something I found interesting in the Karen Westbrook Scranton interview:
"Our offices were around the building and then there was a centre office building, a large bull-pen kind of office, on the second floor that was the office of the Texas Schoolbook Depository and they had a supervisor in there called Mrs Reid, And when we were milling around while the police had us locked in and so forth, we were milling around, Mrs Reid said that she - when everybody was walking and milling and so forth - that Lee came to the door with a Coke in his hand and said, "What's all the excitement about?", and Mrs Reid said she told him, "Oh my God, someone has shot the President."    29:21 - 29:57

In her CE 1381 Westbrook states she left her office about 1:30pm. So at some point in the hour between JFK being shot and Westbrook leaving the TSBD she heard Mrs Jeraldean Reid talking about her encounter with Oswald.
In her WC testimony Mrs Reid describes how she ran back into the building straight after the shooting and her interaction with Oswald. A reconstruction of her movements timed it as approximately two minutes between the end of the shooting and running into Oswald.

Considering prayer-blob is seen in Darnell approximately 30 seconds after the shooting I find it incredibly difficult to believe someone could get from that position, race up to the second floor lunchroom, buy a Coke then bump into Mrs Reid seconds later.

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 11, 2020, 04:38:18 PM
Something I found interesting in the Karen Westbrook Scranton interview:
"Our offices were around the building and then there was a centre office building, a large bull-pen kind of office, on the second floor that was the office of the Texas Schoolbook Depository and they had a supervisor in there called Mrs Reid, And when we were milling around while the police had us locked in and so forth, we were milling around, Mrs Reid said that she - when everybody was walking and milling and so forth - that Lee came to the door with a Coke in his hand and said, "What's all the excitement about?", and Mrs Reid said she told him, "Oh my God, someone has shot the President."    29:21 - 29:57

In her CE 1381 Westbrook states she left her office about 1:30pm. So at some point in the hour between JFK being shot and Westbrook leaving the TSBD she heard Mrs Jeraldean Reid talking about her encounter with Oswald.
In her WC testimony Mrs Reid describes how she ran back into the building straight after the shooting and her interaction with Oswald. A reconstruction of her movements timed it as approximately two minutes between the end of the shooting and running into Oswald.

Considering prayer-blob is seen in Darnell approximately 30 seconds after the shooting I find it incredibly difficult to believe someone could get from that position, race up to the second floor lunchroom, buy a Coke then bump into Mrs Reid seconds later.

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)

There are two important aspects to Karen Westbrook Scranton's revelation concerning Mrs Reid in her "Living History" interview. Firstly, it corroborates Reid's version of meeting Oswald with a coke in his hand in the second floor office. Secondly, it is a first-hand eyewitness  account that this story was first told before Oswald was even arrested, let alone before Oswald confirmed the coke story in his interrogations. It can hardly be assumed that this story was being 'planted' before Oswald was arrested. It seems highly probable that Reid was being truthful in her account of this interaction with Oswald.
With this in mind let's take a closer look at Reid's version of events. In her WC testimony Reid states that she had her lunch in the second floor lunchroom, she was one of the last to leave, she went out front and stood on the steps for a few minutes then, when she saw the motorcade turning on to Houston, moved closer to the street, where O. C. Campbell and Roy Truly were standing. Within moments of the shots she ran up to her office where she had her encounter with Oswald. In a reconstruction of her movements she retraced and timed her steps three times, the upshot of which was a timing of approximately two minutes between the shots ending and meeting Oswald on the second floor. It can safely be assumed that, as Oswald was entering her office at the far end with a full bottle of Coke in his hand he had just come from the second floor lunchroom.
Pauline Sanders, in an FBI interview taken on the 11/24/63, states that on that very morning:

"she called Geraldine Reid...who told her that the police officer who first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr Truly...and Oswald were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into Oswald's stomach but Truly advised the police officer that Oswald worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to Reid, Oswald went to the main office and Reid, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told Oswald that the President had been shot. According to Sanders, Mrs Reid claimed that Oswald just mumbled something and then left the office."

It must be remembered, these are not Reid's words, it is a third-hand account via Pauline Sanders and agents Basham and Anderson. It is clearly a version of the second floor encounter but it is stressed Reid "had not observed the initial incident with the police officer". I doubt Reid's version had Truly lunching with Oswald as she was stood outside with Truly at the time of the shooting. I also doubt that the officer would've come across the two men having lunch and decided to stick his gun in Oswald's stomach whilst accepting Truly's authority.

So it would appear we have a corroborated first-hand eye-witness account of Oswald being on the second floor seconds after the shooting which itself confirms, to a certain extent, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker.
                                                     


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 13, 2020, 03:07:27 AM
There are two important aspects to Karen Westbrook Scranton's revelation concerning Mrs Reid in her "Living History" interview. Firstly, it corroborates Reid's version of meeting Oswald with a coke in his hand in the second floor office. Secondly, it is a first-hand eyewitness  account that this story was first told before Oswald was even arrested, let alone before Oswald confirmed the coke story in his interrogations. It can hardly be assumed that this story was being 'planted' before Oswald was arrested. It seems highly probable that Reid was being truthful in her account of this interaction with Oswald.
With this in mind let's take a closer look at Reid's version of events. In her WC testimony Reid states that she had her lunch in the second floor lunchroom, she was one of the last to leave, she went out front and stood on the steps for a few minutes then, when she saw the motorcade turning on to Houston, moved closer to the street, where O. C. Campbell and Roy Truly were standing. Within moments of the shots she ran up to her office where she had her encounter with Oswald. In a reconstruction of her movements she retraced and timed her steps three times, the upshot of which was a timing of approximately two minutes between the shots ending and meeting Oswald on the second floor. It can safely be assumed that, as Oswald was entering her office at the far end with a full bottle of Coke in his hand he had just come from the second floor lunchroom.
Pauline Sanders, in an FBI interview taken on the 11/24/63, states that on that very morning:

"she called Geraldine Reid...who told her that the police officer who first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr Truly...and Oswald were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into Oswald's stomach but Truly advised the police officer that Oswald worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to Reid, Oswald went to the main office and Reid, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told Oswald that the President had been shot. According to Sanders, Mrs Reid claimed that Oswald just mumbled something and then left the office."

It must be remembered, these are not Reid's words, it is a third-hand account via Pauline Sanders and agents Basham and Anderson. It is clearly a version of the second floor encounter but it is stressed Reid "had not observed the initial incident with the police officer". I doubt Reid's version had Truly lunching with Oswald as she was stood outside with Truly at the time of the shooting. I also doubt that the officer would've come across the two men having lunch and decided to stick his gun in Oswald's stomach whilst accepting Truly's authority.

So it would appear we have a corroborated first-hand eye-witness account of Oswald being on the second floor seconds after the shooting which itself confirms, to a certain extent, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker.
                                                     

Except that Baker, in his first day statement, says third or fourth floor on the stairway - which seems more damning of Oswald, i.e. closer to sixth floor. Why the change to second floor lunchroom?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 13, 2020, 08:58:49 AM
Except that Baker, in his first day statement, says third or fourth floor on the stairway - which seems more damning of Oswald, i.e. closer to sixth floor. Why the change to second floor lunchroom?

What's this got to do with the corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald by Karen Westbrook Scranton. Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald minutes after the shooting and before Oswald was arrested. Reid witnessed Oswald on the second floor with a coke in his hand seconds after the shooting. It's got nothing to do with Baker. All it does is suggest Baker made a mistake about which floor.
It also implies that Oswald was coming from the second floor lunchroom at a time that fits perfectly with the Baker/Truly reconstruction of their encounter with Oswald.
The important thing, though, is that Westbrook Scranton provides corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 14, 2020, 05:31:28 AM
What's this got to do with the corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald by Karen Westbrook Scranton. Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald minutes after the shooting and before Oswald was arrested. Reid witnessed Oswald on the second floor with a coke in his hand seconds after the shooting. It's got nothing to do with Baker. All it does is suggest Baker made a mistake about which floor.
It also implies that Oswald was coming from the second floor lunchroom at a time that fits perfectly with the Baker/Truly reconstruction of their encounter with Oswald.
The important thing, though, is that Westbrook Scranton provides corroboration of Reid's encounter with Oswald.
Why is it that Baker was " mistaken" as to which floor he encountered Oswald on, but Reid is not " mistaken" in her account? ( Scranton's testimony is hearsay, by the way.)

And, again, moving the Oswald encounter down a few floors seems counterintuitive to the official story, i.e. the third or fourth floor is closer to the sniper's nest, therefore much more damning. The second floor lunchroom encounter is an odd fabrication - wish I could figure out its purpose.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 12:04:12 PM
Why is it that Baker was " mistaken" as to which floor he encountered Oswald on, but Reid is not " mistaken" in her account? ( Scranton's testimony is hearsay, by the way.)

And, again, moving the Oswald encounter down a few floors seems counterintuitive to the official story, i.e. the third or fourth floor is closer to the sniper's nest, therefore much more damning. The second floor lunchroom encounter is an odd fabrication - wish I could figure out its purpose.
Baker could've been mistaken because he'd never been in the building, was full of adrenaline, gun drawn, anticipating meeting an armed assailant, racing up and down a building he had to recall later.
Reid worked in the building. Why should she have been mistaken?
Isn't that obvious?
Scranton confirms Reid is telling her version of the Oswald encounter immediately after the shooting, before Oswald is even arrested.
Oswald confirms this story in his interrogation (apparently).
This confirms Baker's story even though he's mistaken about the floor.
All of which is confirmed by Truly.
Scranton, Reid, Oswald, Baker, Truly.
Also, the timing of Reid's account fits perfectly with that of Baker and Truly.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 10:30:41 PM
She is clearly referring to herself and her work colleagues. It is unreasonable to assume otherwise.

It's unreasonable to assume that these 4 people all marched (or ran) together in lockstep after the assassination.

Quote
"...there was a quiet calm while the shots were fired and then, when everybody realised the shots were fired, the car sped on, then it erupted in pandemonium and everybody started running every place, so we came back to the building..."

We're definitely going to have to disagree on that.

And yet somehow you know that they were all back at the building "in less than 30 seconds".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 10:36:53 PM
Considering prayer-blob is seen in Darnell approximately 30 seconds after the shooting I find it incredibly difficult to believe someone could get from that position, race up to the second floor lunchroom, buy a Coke then bump into Mrs Reid seconds later.

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)

You finding something "hard to believe" does not constitute "evidence".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 10:45:14 PM
There are two important aspects to Karen Westbrook Scranton's revelation concerning Mrs Reid in her "Living History" interview. Firstly, it corroborates Reid's version of meeting Oswald with a coke in his hand in the second floor office.

No, actually it doesn't.  It just corroborates that Reid told the same story.  It's not an independent account.

Quote
So it would appear we have a corroborated first-hand eye-witness account of Oswald being on the second floor seconds after the shooting which itself confirms, to a certain extent, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker.                                                 

No, not even to any extent.  Mrs Reid didn't know first-hand that Oswald came from the lunchroom or that there was an encounter there.  And in Westbrook's account, there is no mention of where Reid was when she saw Oswald or how long after the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 11:35:12 PM
It's unreasonable to assume that these 4 people all marched (or ran) together in lockstep after the assassination.

Agreed. They were not in lockstep.

Quote
And yet somehow you know that they were all back at the building "in less than 30 seconds".

Running back to the TSBD from the site of the assassination would get you there in well under 30 seconds. Probably half that time.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 11:36:02 PM
You finding something "hard to believe" does not constitute "evidence".

Agreed. I didn't suggest it was.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 14, 2020, 11:49:08 PM
No, actually it doesn't.  It just corroborates that Reid told the same story.  It's not an independent account.

It was poorly phrased. It does indeed corroborate that Reid told the story of her encounter with Oswald before Oswald was arrested.
I'm obviously not suggesting that it was an independent account. That's a silly thing to say.

Quote
No, not even to any extent.  Mrs Reid didn't know first-hand that Oswald came from the lunchroom or that there was an encounter there.  And in Westbrook's account, there is no mention of where Reid was when she saw Oswald or how long after the assassination.

To the extent that Oswald has just come from the lunchroom (full bottle of coke in hand) seconds after the shooting has finished. The Truly/Baker account of the lunchroom encounter marries perfectly with Reid's in terms of timing. The two accounts (Reid's and Truly/Baker's) corroborate each other.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 11:50:58 PM
Agreed. I didn't suggest it was.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)

More evidence that prayer-blob is not Oswald  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 14, 2020, 11:53:07 PM
To the extent that Oswald has just come from the lunchroom (full bottle of coke in hand) seconds after the shooting has finished.

But Reid wouldn't have known that he came from the lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2020, 12:24:57 AM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)

 ;D How very tricky of you.
The 'evidence' I was referring to was Scranton's corroboration of Reid telling the story of her encounter with Oswald  before Oswald was even arrested. We know from Reid this encounter took place seconds after the shooting finished.
I most certainly was not suggesting that what I found unlikely was evidence which is what you were asserting.
Nice try though  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2020, 12:26:28 AM
But Reid wouldn't have known that he came from the lunchroom.
Where else would he be coming from with a full bottle of coke in his hand?
Think it through John.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 15, 2020, 04:49:32 PM
Agreed. They were not in lockstep.

Running back to the TSBD from the site of the assassination would get you there in well under 30 seconds. Probably half that time.

Sigh.....none of them said that they ran back to the TSBD immediately after the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 15, 2020, 04:51:17 PM
;D How very tricky of you.
The 'evidence' I was referring to was Scranton's corroboration of Reid telling the story of her encounter with Oswald  before Oswald was even arrested.

How is that "evidence" that prayer-blob is not Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 15, 2020, 04:53:05 PM
Where else would he be coming from with a full bottle of coke in his hand?
Think it through John.

So that would be an assumption, right?  Just so we're clear.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:43:41 PM
So that would be an assumption, right?  Just so we're clear.

Just so we're clear John, it is an assumption.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
Sigh.....none of them said that they ran back to the TSBD immediately after the assassination.

In the interview Westbrook Scranton describes running back into the TSBD.
Both Lovelady and Shelley describe Calvery as running back to the TSBD
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:51:42 PM
How is that "evidence" that prayer-blob is not Oswald?
Reid's eye-witness account is evidence Oswald was in the second floor office with a full bottle of coke in his hands seconds after the shooting finished.
In Darnell we see prayer-blob in position 20-30 seconds after the shooting.
Reid's account places an incredible strain on the credulity of the idea that, if prayer-blob was Oswald, he could get from that position, up to the second floor lunchroom, get a full bottle of coke and appear nonchalantly strolling into the second floor office in the time allotted.
It stretches that credulity to breaking point.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 07:52:39 PM
So what happened to his jacket?

Think it through, Dan.

How is that related to Mrs Reid's ability to identify Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 19, 2020, 08:37:49 PM
You're talking November 22nd, 1963, right?

yes
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 01:04:07 AM
Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.

vs.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

How many seconds later was that?

Yeah Otto, I understand the point you're making but how does Oswald not having a jacket on affect Reid's identification of him?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 01:38:19 AM
Just a follow on thought about the Reid story that Karen Westbrook Scranton tells 'starting 29:17 in the below video:


She seems unequivocal that Reid specifically mentioned Oswald in her story but looking at Reid's WC testimony, she is also equivocal that she didn't know Oswald's name on the day of the assassination so how could she be talking about him in the hour after the assassination. In her testimony she states:

Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It is some business for them.
Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but I didn't even know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.
Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

So, at some point she was shown a picture of Oswald and could then put a name to the face but I find it hard to imagine that someone had a picture of Oswald available so soon after the shooting to show TSBD employees (obviously I could be completely wrong).
On the flip side of that, if she wasn't shown a picture of Oswald before she went home she must surely have seen him on the TV at some point over the weekend and would have recognised from that and not a photo someone had shown her.
Not sure what to make of it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 10:32:43 AM
What you can make of it is that Reid is FoS.

If Oswald was a nobody that nobody cared about why would she suddenly, on the 22nd, refer to this conversation?

Geneva Hine, who remained on the 2nd floor, destroys Reid's story and that's why Hine was not part of Belin's fake reenactment which only included Reid.

Very succinctly put Otto but there are one or two issues your searing insight has overlooked.
The problem isn't Reid, it's Westbrook. Watch the interview and see what you make of it. I get the distinct impression she is absolutely certain about this incident, I don't see how she can be 'misremembering' something so specific.
As for Geneva Hine, I'm afraid you're not quite correct. As is so often the case in this arena there is a 'grey area', even in the smallest of details.
At the all important moment that Reid and Oswald are having their 'potential' interaction, Hine is not in the office. She's banging on a door elsewhere. This leads to a scenario so unlikely as to be comedic but it unfortunately exists.
And the bottom line is, you don't actually know why Hine is left out of the re-enactment although you may well be correct.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 05:16:15 PM
Why is Westbrook the  problem?

Because if Reid is FoS how can Westbrook be confirming that Reid was telling this story about the encounter with Oswald before Oswald was even arrested.

Quote
Which might have been resolved during a reenactment.

Maybe Shmaybe (I don't know how else to respond to such a watery statement)

Quote
Can you come up with any plausible explanation for not including Hine in a re-enactment?

I can come up with two off the top of my head:

1) The presence of Hine might have revealed something untoward about the plausibility of Reid's story
2) She wasn't there so is of no importance

[3) Something else vague and made up to suit whatever way I want to look at it]

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 05:18:28 PM
After thought - does anyone know if the FBI were showing a picture of Oswald to TSBD employees in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 06:26:04 PM
Relying on 50 old memory, not sure what you're trying to prove or disprove...

Not trying to prove or disprove anything. I still don't have a fixed opinion on much of this as every view seems to have a counter-view. I just find it interesting.

Quote
If Reid did not know Lee's name how did she refer to Lee as Westbrook does, as "Lee"?

That's exactly the question I'm asking but I like the way you've presented it as your own insight

Quote
"This leads to a scenario so unlikely as to be comedic" was your own assessment. Not worth a re-enactment?

Agreed, definitely worth a re-enactment, same as Adams, Styles and Dougherty. It's symptomatic of how skewed the investigation seemed to be in terms of focussing solely on Oswald's guilt (IMO)

Quote
#1 makes sense, the others don't.

#3 seems to be most people's favourite
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 07:23:55 PM
All good. Reid's account of leaving the lunch room is hazy and her language squishy.....

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit 497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front?
Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office.

So, there were men in the lunchroom....she might have left the lunchroom returning through the office with Lee carrying his coke. My contention is that this morphed into her official story after she got primed by Truly on Saturday prior to giving affidavits. Note that Westbrook has Lee initiating the conversation, reverse of what Reid testified.

Man, that is some stretch. You must be pretty good at yoga.
The main problem there is that the lunchroom was full of the 'younger girls' who all fail to mention Oswald's presence in their CE 1381's
And what's the point of morphing something like that. If you're going to lie, just lie. No need to have a basis for it.
And Westbrook hears Reid going on about the coke bottle before Oswald gets a chance to reveal this detail himself.

One thing I do think is possible is Truly priming Reid on the Saturday. Pauline Sanders talks to Reid on Sunday morning and she is now giving some garbled version of the lunchroom encounter with Oswald, Truly and Baker even though she wasn't there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 07:52:52 PM
The main problem there is that the lunchroom was full of the 'younger girls' who all fail to mention Oswald's presence in their CE 1381's

That includes Reid and Westbrook, so what does that prove?

Lee didn't need to camp in front of the vending machine prior to getting his Coke.

All girls had left prior to Reid leaving, allowing Oswald to enter "unseen".

It doesn't 'prove' anything. It just really undermines the scenario you are proposing to such an extent that it's not worth getting into.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 09:29:52 PM
Should equally cool your excitement for Westbrook's 50 year old "hi-res" recollection of an incident that wasn't worth mentioning to the FBI in 1964 by any of the involved parities.

Don't be like that Otto, it's not like I'm pulling things out of thin air and weaving them into a completely unsupported narrative.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2020, 10:50:09 PM
At least I didn't claim "we know" what happened, as you did a few pages back when your happy marriage quickly fell apart:

Erm....?

Quote
Good to know you're now interested in learning stuff instead of running along with the Reid/WC two minute sprint to the second floor.

Erm....?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 02:07:10 AM
"The 'evidence' I was referring to was Scranton's corroboration of Reid telling the story of her encounter with Oswald  before Oswald was even arrested. We know from Reid this encounter took place seconds after the shooting finished."

Your attempt to prove that prayer-blob is not Oswald was straight out of the WC/LN lunchroom encounter playbook spiced up with Westbrook that couldn't get the dialogue right, even adding "whether that fits in with the timeline", and cherry picked third hand Sanders thrown in for good measure -- LOL

Better luck next time.

 :D
All because I didn't like your silly little made up story.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 01:44:01 PM
Thanks for playing.

Just a tad too dismissive of my suggestion, gave you away.

But you need to work a lot harder on that gone-in-seconds jacket for your Ried fantasy to work!

I had every right to be dismissive of your suggestion. From some dithering in Reid's WC testimony about who was in the lunchroom when she left, you came up with a scenario in which she and Oswald are leaving the lunchroom together and this morphed into the Reid encounter. It's not based on anything and I could have been really harsh about it, which I wasn't. Instead I raised some valid criticisms about it but rather than take them on board or even consider them, you just got really pissy about it and here we are.

The jacket thing isn't a problem - he took it off for no reason, Baker was mistaken, whatever - it's Reid not knowing Oswald's name on the day of the assassination that's the problem. I'm starting to think that the Truly/Baker/Oswald encounter emerged out of Reid's story and not the other way round. It seems highly likely Truly was priming Reid with his own lunchroom encounter before Sunday. I've read somewhere Reid was Truly's secretary so they would have had a close working relationship, if true.
The thing that's always bugged me about the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter hoax theory is Baker. He seems totally separate from Truly and a 'random event'. So who is coming up with the hoax - are the SS/FBI sitting them both down and telling them "This is what we're doing", is Truly taking Baker to one side and saying "Just go along with this". The hoax can't just emerge naturally, someone has to be in the driving seat but if Westbrook's account of Reid telling the Oswald story immediately after the assassination has any credence it can't be part of the hoax. Food for thought
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2020, 07:51:44 PM
In the interview Westbrook Scranton describes running back into the TSBD.
Both Lovelady and Shelley describe Calvery as running back to the TSBD

And none of them said "in well under 30 seconds".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 07:53:18 PM
And none of them said "in well under 30 seconds".

That is correct John
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2020, 07:57:53 PM
Reid's eye-witness account is evidence Oswald was in the second floor office with a full bottle of coke in his hands seconds after the shooting finished.

You misspelled "minutes".

Quote
In Darnell we see prayer-blob in position 20-30 seconds after the shooting.
Reid's account places an incredible strain on the credulity of the idea that, if prayer-blob was Oswald, he could get from that position, up to the second floor lunchroom, get a full bottle of coke and appear nonchalantly strolling into the second floor office in the time allotted.

Then you have a weird notion of "incredible strain on the credulity".  And what makes you think Oswald got the "full bottle of coke" after Darnell?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2020, 08:00:11 PM
Very succinctly put Otto but there are one or two issues your searing insight has overlooked.
The problem isn't Reid, it's Westbrook. Watch the interview and see what you make of it. I get the distinct impression she is absolutely certain about this incident, I don't see how she can be 'misremembering' something so specific.

Cool.  Does that include something so specific as where she was standing during the motorcade?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2020, 08:07:33 PM
The main problem there is that the lunchroom was full of the 'younger girls' who all fail to mention Oswald's presence in their CE 1381's

That includes Reid and Westbrook, so what does that prove?

Lee didn't need to camp in front of the vending machine prior to getting his Coke.

All girls had left prior to Reid leaving, allowing Oswald to enter "unseen".

yes, Carolyn Arnold told Earl Golz that she saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at 12:25.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Bronson%20Charles/Item%2027.pdf (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Bronson%20Charles/Item%2027.pdf)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 08:25:47 PM
You misspelled "minutes".

Wrong

Quote
Then you have a weird notion of "incredible strain on the credulity". 

Wrong again

Quote
And what makes you think Oswald got the "full bottle of coke" after Darnell?

It's full
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2020, 09:30:21 PM
Wrong

By all means then, tell us how many "seconds" elapsed between Darnell and Reid's sighting of Oswald.

Quote
Wrong again

Oh, I'm sure it's an incredible strain on your credulity.  Your special-pleading arguments often invoke such things.  How many "seconds" then do you credulously think it would take for somebody to go into the building from the top step and go up one flight of stairs?

Quote
It's full

So?  Is there some rule about how long it has to take to drink a Coke?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2020, 11:56:30 PM
What you evidently missed, and dodged, in your CE 1381 argument was that fact that the FBI Reid report (add Westbrook) taken just one week prior her WC testimony contained zero supporting evidence of a rendezvous with Oswald, topped off with a (full) Coke.

Firstly, you're just plain wrong about Reid's CE 1381 containing " zero supporting evidence of a rendezvous with Oswald, topped off with a (full) Coke."
Other than that slight gaffe I'm not sure how Reid's FBI statement relates to the CE 1381's of the office workers in the lunchroom at that time. Please enlighten me.

Quote
Too bad they added the Coke to Reid's brush with destiny...

Did "they"?
Hmm...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 12:41:28 AM
Firstly, you're just plain wrong about Reid's CE 1381 containing " zero supporting evidence of a rendezvous with Oswald, topped off with a (full) Coke."
Other than that slight gaffe I'm not sure how Reid's FBI statement relates to the CE 1381's of the office workers in the lunchroom at that time. Please enlighten me.

The gaffe is all yours.

(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pages/WH_Vol22_0350b.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 01:05:00 AM
The gaffe is all yours.

(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pages/WH_Vol22_0350b.gif)

Really John?
If you knew how to read a document properly you'd have noticed the following sentence:

"I have been advised of the information previously furnished to the F. B. I. and it is an accurate account
of my activities and impressions on 11-22-63"

This is a reference to Reid's FBI statement given on 11/26/63 which contains the Oswald encounter, full bottle of Coca Cola included. This refutes Otto's insistence that Reid's CE 1381 contains " zero supporting evidence of a rendezvous with Oswald, topped off with a (full) Coke."

The gaffe is now yours.

"Taxi for John"   8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 12:57:50 PM
You just quote Reid from CE 1381 and I'll gladly stand corrected.

I have quoted Reid from her CE 1381 one post ago, the post you are responding to.
You have literally read my post quoting Reid from her CE 1381 then asked me to "quote Reid from CE 1381".
Talk about an inability to accept you're wrong, even over the smallest detail.
But let me help you - you do stand corrected

"Thanks for playing"  [Otto Beck]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 04:07:45 PM
No problem, now you need contemporary corroborating evidence for Reid's claim in case you hope to advance your blob-claim.

And you need to work a lot harder on that unfortunate jacked reported by Baker.

And you have to deal with Hine's testimony naming every member, including Reid, of the group returning to the office.

Agreed.

Am trying to identify and track all the 'young ladies' who were in the second floor lunchroom and see how this ties in with Reid's statements and to see if I can unravel the mysterious movements of Carolyn Arnold.
One thing I'm looking at right now concerns the last point you make about Hine's testimony. There is a brief moment when Hine is out of the office, banging on the door of room 203. If Reid enters the office without being noticed by Hine I am assuming it can only be at this moment. The problem is - where is Reid when Hine returns to the office? Hine makes no mention of Reid until she is seen in the group of workers returning to the office.
The image below is CE 497. In her WC testimony Reid describes running back into the building and up the flight of stairs (seen in the bottom right-hand corner). She must pass through the door in front of the stairs then down a short corridor/landing to the door entering the main office (it is this office Westbrook describes everyone milling around in and where she heard Reid telling the Oswald story). Before going through the door to the main office there is a longer corridor to her left at the end of which is the door to room 203 (in the story I am telling here Geneva Hine is down there, banging on the door, as Reid passes by). Reid enters the main office and walks ahead towards #29 on the diagram with a long counter to her left. As she reaches #29 she turns left and sees Oswald coming in the door between #27 and 28. Reid is now walking west, towards Oswald who is walking east towards Reid.
This is where, I think, it gets interesting. Reid's desk is situated by the dumbwaiter marked on the diagram. In her WC testimony Reid states twice that she walks past her desk. She crosses paths with Oswald where the "XR" is marked on the diagram. They have their interaction and Reid keeps on walking.
Where is Reid going?

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBTc77rv/2nd-floor-plan-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In her WC testimony Reid never reveals where she went after her encounter with Oswald:

"Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too..."

She is walking east, she passes her desk, passes Oswald, and keeps on walking.
She is heading directly towards the door Oswald has just come in from but it is never revealed if she passes through it. Could this be why Reid is not in the office when Geneva Hine returns?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 05:10:56 PM
"I have been advised of the information previously furnished to the F. B. I. and it is an accurate account
of my activities and impressions on 11-22-63"

This is a reference to Reid's FBI statement given on 11/26/63

And you know that . . . how?

Otto's point is that Reid's CE 1381 statement makes no reference to the coke and the encounter, and he is absolutely right.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 05:16:56 PM
There used to be a long thread here that discussed Reid and Hine's movements in detail, but I think it was lost when the forum was hacked. :(
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 07:02:08 PM
And you know that . . . how?

How do I know Reid gave a statement to the FBI on 11/26/63?

Quote
Otto's point is that Reid's CE 1381 statement makes no reference to the coke and the encounter, and he is absolutely right.

I would imagine Otto can speak for himself John.
Time to move on...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 07:16:33 PM
How do I know Reid gave a statement to the FBI on 11/26/63?

No.  How do you know that "information previously furnished to the F. B. I."  is a reference to Reid's FBI statement given on 11/26/63?

Quote
I would imagine Otto can speak for himself John.

I imagine he did.  You just didn't understand it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 08:20:25 PM
No.  How do you know that "information previously furnished to the F. B. I."  is a reference to Reid's FBI statement given on 11/26/63?
Because her statement to the FBI on 11/26/63 is 'previous' to her WC testimony and it is information given (or 'furnished') to the FBI, hence the phrase "information previously furnished to the F.B.I."
Just to expand on that - the statement given to the FBI on 11/26/63 contained information relating to her "activities and impressions" on 11/22/63 as she states in her CE 1381

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 08:23:38 PM
Thumb1:

Further from the Weisberg collection:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/E%20Disk/Ellis%20Starvis%20Major/Item%2001.pdf

Specifically the last paragraph is rather interesting....

Interesting to say the least. Now I'm going to be spending my evening trying to track down water coolers in the TSBD
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 08:54:50 PM
Because her statement to the FBI on 11/26/63 is 'previous' to her WC testimony

yes, 11/26/63 is certainly "previous" to 3/18/64.  That's your basis? 

Quote
and it is information given (or 'furnished') to the FBI, hence the phrase "information previously furnished to the F.B.I."
Just to expand on that - the statement given to the FBI on 11/26/63 contained information relating to her "activities and impressions" on 11/22/63 as she states in her CE 1381

So I guess somebody needs a lesson in "necessary" vs. "sufficient".

Either way, CE 1381 does not make any reference to Reid encountering Oswald or a Coke.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 09:06:00 PM
Interesting to say the least. Now I'm going to be spending my evening trying to track down water coolers in the TSBD

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/2nd-floor-water-cooler.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 09:23:38 PM
yes, 11/26/63 is certainly "previous" to 3/18/64.  That's your basis? 

So I guess somebody needs a lesson in "necessary" vs. "sufficient".

Either way, CE 1381 does not make any reference to Reid encountering Oswald or a Coke.

Still crying about being schooled John. You're the only one getting any lessons round here.  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 09:39:10 PM
Still crying about being schooled John. You're the only one getting any lessons round here.  8)

Nice display of arrogance, but that doesn't justify your claim that "information previously furnished to the F. B. I."  is a reference specifically to Reid's FBI statement given on 11/26/63.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 22, 2020, 10:31:11 PM
Nice display of arrogance, but that doesn't justify your claim that "information previously furnished to the F. B. I."  is a reference specifically to Reid's FBI statement given on 11/26/63.

Just teasing because you're being so petulant  ;D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2020, 10:43:10 PM
Just teasing because you're being so petulant  ;D

You're the one who gets petulant.  Every time your misinformation gets corrected.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 23, 2020, 12:37:55 AM
Unfortunately they forgot "information previously furnished to the F. B. I." in the Carolyn Arnold's statement (page 7 in the CE 1381 bundle) to cover her 12:25 sighting of Oswald -- LOL

This obviously brings us to Arnold's FBI statement four days after the assassination:

"Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.

She stated thereafter she viewed the Presidential Motorcade and heard the shots that were fired at the President; however, she could furnish no information of value as to the individual firing the shots or any other information concerning OSWALD, whom she stated she did not know and had merely seen him working in the building."


The important point is that this has Arnold outside the TSBD @ 12:15pm. This ties in with the CE 1381's of the other employees Arnold was with, three of whom state 12:15 as the time they left the TSBD. This would also seem to tie in with Reid's statement about the younger girls leaving before her, Reid herself getting out in time to stand on the steps "for a few minutes" before the parade came onto Houston.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 23, 2020, 06:46:06 PM
Combined with this part makes it even more exiting:

As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor.

But wait, wasn't Oswald on the sixth floor stacking boxes around 12:15?

Then he apparently chills out in the Domino room where he sees Jarman and Norman entering the building (around 12:25pm), something that appears to be independently corroborated by Jarman and Norman themselves. While Oswald is 'wandering' around the first floor Arnold Rowland is keeping an eye on 'the man with the rifle' on the sixth floor.
Go figure.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 24, 2020, 04:40:16 AM
You're the one who gets petulant.  Every time your misinformation gets corrected.
It's kind of a pattern with Mr O'meara.
He posts. We rebut. He insults.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2020, 05:13:46 PM
It's kind of a pattern with Mr O'meara.
He posts. We rebut. He insults.

This is a baseless lie. Utterly unfounded.
On this forum I've constantly presented Ideas, theories and arguments that are there to be critiqued, the whole point being that those who know better than I do can show me where I'm going wrong. Something that has happened on a number of occasions and something I have always gladly welcomed. I've challenged the Prayer Man theory because I don't like, what I perceive to be, the mentality behind it, I've created "The First Shot" thread and presented a range of arguments to try and establish when the first shot occurred as I believe it's important to establish a consensus about something this fundamental and I've created the "Nix Illusion" thread to demonstrate to researchers such as yourself why the inconsistency you believe exists between the Zapruder and Nix films is not actually there.
Not once have you ever rebutted a single point I've made. Not once. Instead you provide cryptic, meaningless comments that contribute nothing. So I called you out on it and now I find you on another thread crying about it. Embarrassing.
I'm constantly putting things out there to be knocked down which is something I welcome. Genuine debate.
You just hide in the shadows sniping.
I'm here to learn and to challenge. I'm not here to score points in some imaginary game.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 24, 2020, 06:47:11 PM
Still crying about being schooled John. You're the only one getting any lessons round here.  8)
Uh, another sign of you responding to dissenting voices.
Your desire to show dominance is quite telling.
Sad. :(
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 24, 2020, 07:10:46 PM
Suck it up and move on, you're wasting everybody's time.
You're the one who chose to respond.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2020, 07:46:12 PM
Uh, another sign of you responding to dissenting voices.
Your desire to show dominance is quite telling.
Sad. :(

The post you've selected to demonstrate how unreasonable I am was not taken from a 'dissenting voice', it was a response to a condescending voice telling me about lessons I needed.
My reply to your lies about me has been completely ignored, instead you've decided to look back in the thread and take a post completely out of context to score a point.
I couldn't agree more, you are wasting everyone's time.
Why not put your ideas out there and argue them through in a reasoned way and have the flexibility to change your point of view if, and only if, you feel a good enough argument has been made.
I'm willing to do exactly that and always will be.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2020, 10:12:40 PM
Just a thought concerning Baker's comment about seeing someone on the third or fourth floor:

" As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me."  (Affidavit on day of the assassination)

If Dorothy Garner's statement to Barry Ernest has any credence the fourth floor can be ruled out as she would have been in the area it was supposed to have happened.
This leaves the third floor:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtBsqpV9/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Third-Floor.png) (https://postimages.org/)

The stairs Baker and Truly were ascending are in the top left-hand corner. They would have come up the stairs to the left (north to south) turned left and left again in a tight enclosed area and then come to the bottom of the stairs going up (east to west). It would be at this point Baker would have seen the man walking away from him.
This is just a personal opinion but the space between where Baker would be standing and the elevators seems too small for the encounter with Oswald to have happened in. When Baker says he called out to the man who turned around and walked back towards him I get the impression there was quite a bit of distance between them. If it happened on the third floor the man walking away from the stairs can only have been a few feet away from Baker, maybe five to ten feet.
I'm not saying it can't have happened that way, it just doesn't 'feel' right to me. Why would the man have to walk back towards him if they were so close?
Just a thought.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2020, 10:54:45 PM
Even more odd how the man got past Truly unseen.

Considering Truly would've had to virtually push him out of the way to get up the stairs. It just seems very unlikely the encounter with Oswald happened on the third or fourth floors.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2020, 11:14:23 PM
Oswald?

Excuse me,
Baker's encounter with the man he later identified as Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2020, 11:47:33 PM
Much later.

True, but a lot of the ingredients of the second floor lunchroom encounter are present in Baker's affidavit on the day of the assassination:
Baker (not Truly) sees a man walking away from the stairs
He calls out to the man who turns around and walks back towards him
Truly vouches for the man
Baker let's the man loose and hits the stairs

I suppose the point I'm making is that Baker could've made a mistake about which floor it happened on and when looking closer at the third and fourth floors as options it seems this might be the case. If, however, Baker did mean the second floor it is notable he makes no mention of seeing his man through a door. The impression I get from Baker's affidavit is that the encounter happens in an open space.
One thing has always bothered me about the idea the encounter with Baker, Truly and Oswald in the second floor lunchroom is a hoax, with Baker and Truly culpable in it - why not have it on the fifth or sixth floor? Why leave so much room for doubt?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 25, 2020, 04:12:54 PM
I count zero ingredients of the "lunchroom encounter" in Baker's affidavit.

???
Got me slightly confused here Otto. Baker's affidavit definitely contains some of the key ingredients of his later "2nd floor lunchroom encounter" with Oswald:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway"       Affidavit
"As I came out to the second floor there ... I caught a glimpse of this man walking away..."       WC testimony

"I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me."     Affidavit
"I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me."    WC testimony

"The manager said, "I know that man, he works here."    Affidavit
"I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes"    WC testimony

"I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor."     Affidavit
"I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs."       WC testimony

There can be no doubt that Baker's affidavit contains certain key ingredients of his WC testimony so I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you say you "count zero".

Quote
Surprisingly, Baker completely fails to mention (affidavit) that he just identified the man being brought in, handcuffed, as the man he had stopped in the depository.

Again, I'm a bit confused. Johnson makes it clear that Baker's identification of Oswald occurred after the affidavit had been taken:
"While in the office from 3:00pm until 2:00am I answered the phone and took an affidavit from Patrolman M. L. Baker ...
Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped on the 4th floor..."

How did Baker get the opportunity to identify Oswald?

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository"

I think the wording of this part of the statement can be misleading. It can be read as Baker recognising Oswald as he was giving his affidavit but it can also be read as Baker being in the Homicide Bureau because he was giving an affidavit. While there Oswald was brought in and Baker made his identification. The correct interpretation is revealed by Johnson's earlier statement that Baker had given his affidavit and then, at some point later, identified Oswald.

Quote
Further details on page 2, which included a search of the man......there you go!

Johnson states that Baker "started to search the man but the building manager stated that the man was an employee"
It does not state that Baker searched him, in fact the obvious reading of this passage is that he never searched him at all because as he started Truly chimed in.

There you go!  (whatever that's supposed to mean)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 25, 2020, 11:56:07 PM

If it was clear when Baker later identified Oswald there was no need for the addendum which states it happened when Baker was giving an affidavit. Plain and simple, but it just didn't suit you.


That Johnson states Baker's identification of Oswald took place after his affidavit was taken is indisputable.
You choose to ignore this blatant fact because, I assume, it suits you to do so.
Unlike you, I don't have an entrenched position on this issue.
You're lucky that you've made your mind up about it. I still have to wonder about silly little details such as "What point does a fake lunchroom encounter serve?" and "Why not, if its all made up, have it on the sixth floor?"

I'm not trying to sway you on this matter in any way, if I ask (myself) challenging questions it's because I still don't understand what's happening.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 26, 2020, 12:29:59 AM
That Johnson states Baker's identification of Oswald took place after his affidavit was taken is indisputable.
You choose to ignore this blatant fact because, I assume, it suits you to do so.
Unlike you, I don't have an entrenched position on this issue.
You're lucky that you've made your mind up about it. I still have to wonder about silly little details such as "What point does a fake lunchroom encounter serve?" and "Why not, if its all made up, have it on the sixth floor?"

I'm not trying to sway you on this matter in any way, if I ask (myself) challenging questions it's because I still don't understand what's happening.

Oswald snuffed Kennedy.
That's it. No need to get one's shorts in a knot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 26, 2020, 01:04:46 AM
Oswald snuffed Kennedy.
That's it. No need to get one's shorts in a knot.

If it was as simple as that Bill then everyone's story would be very straight-forward. No need for the deception, falsehoods and confusion that permeate the testimonies of many who worked at the TSBD. Everyone would have a pretty good idea of where they were and what they were doing, sure some insignificant details would get mixed up, that's human nature, but the wholesale fabrications that take place are ridiculous.
We can agree to disagree on that. You may be able to rationalise it but it's not something I can ignore.

PS: I prefer the phrase "knickers in a twist"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 26, 2020, 11:20:09 AM
Zoom out, and you'll notice the "...later identified..." statement concludes Johnson's narrative of what Baker witnessed at the depository. "Later" refers to the events in the Plaza/TSBD.

The indisputable moment, last paragraph, is "when" Baker is giving his affidavit. Johnson couldn't quote Baker if he wasn't there at that moment "when" Oswald entered the room. If it really happened. At least Baker, initially, brought it to the fourth floor.

Few things are indisputable in this case.

Mildly disappointed, but your effort is appreciated.

I really like the way you talk gibberish then finish it off by being condescending.
It's a great combo. Has that Big/Little man vibe to it.

Here's a bit of condescension especially for you while I hold your hand through some basic English. Try not to read it too quickly:

"While in the office from 3:00pm until 2:00am I answered the phone and took an affidavit from Patrolman M. L. Baker ...
Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped on the 4th floor..."

Johnson took  Baker's affidavit (with me so far?)
LATER
Baker identified Oswald

One more time...

Just kidding.

You're going to paint yourself into a corner if you pursue this so let it go.
Obviously I was being too subtle for you in my last post:

Dear OTTO, what is the purpose of faking the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter?

Dear OTTO, if it's fake why not have it on the sixth floor?

If you're not interested in having any kind of reasoned dialogue about this issue that's fair enough and before you start crying about how you've been mistreated in this post I would like to stress it is a response to your own condescending attitude towards me but, as you recently advised someone else, "Suck it up and move on"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 26, 2020, 09:48:51 PM
If the purpose of the "fake" 2nd floor lunchroom encounter is to establish Oswald's guilt, and it's hard to imagine what other purpose it might serve, it could hardly be any worse. It' so rubbish it's hard to accept as a fabrication. Why not have it on the 6th floor? By the time Baker gives his affidavit the Sniper's nest has been discovered:

Baker - As we made our way up past the 6th floor I saw a man shifting boxes in the southeast corner. Mr Truly assured me the man was an employee so we carried on our way. Later I identified the man as Lee Harvey Oswald.


There!! I've just done it  8)
I've created an airtight, fake encounter that puts Oswald at the scene of the crime.
That's how easy it is.
Just think about how easy and how obvious that is.
Only Truly and Baker need be involved. No need to drag in Jeraldean Reid, Marvin Johnson or Karen Westbrook Scranton.
Who cares what Oswald has to say, he's just trying to create an alibi for himself.
I've literally just come up with that, in seconds.
But whoever was supposed to be organising this fake encounter (SS/FBI/other) could only come up with this  BS:, ramshackle effort?

"Ooh, but Baker saw Oswald wearing a shirt and Reid saw him wearing a T-shirt, therefore the whole thing is fake".
Well, let's turn that around.
If it is a fake, created to establish Oswald's guilt, why would it contain such a glaring error over something so fundamental?
Here's another - Why did Baker and Truly move so fast?
All they had to do was add 10 - 15 seconds in the lobby when they first met and the same again by the elevators, and this would've given Oswald plenty of time to get down to the 2nd floor lunchroom and compose himself.
But oh no, both men keep on insisting they were shifting.
They even did a reconstruction to show just how quick they got up there!
If it was organised fakery wouldn't they have allowed enough time for Oswald to have comfortably reached the lunchroom?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2020, 11:30:15 PM
I'm constantly putting things out there to be knocked down which is something I welcome.

Tonkovich is right.  When your assumptions are challenged you get defensive and pissy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 29, 2020, 07:38:38 AM
Tonkovich is right.  When your assumptions are challenged you get defensive and pissy.

As we're getting personal John...
Out of everything I've posted you chose a really telling quote:

"I'm constantly putting things out there to be knocked down which is something I welcome."

This is something that is true of me, I am constantly putting out ideas, theories and arguments which are there to be knocked down. This is something you certainly don't do. You constantly snipe at the work others are putting out without ever putting out your own.
I find the way you operate to be really cowardly.
The good thing about the forum is that it's a record and I will proudly hold up what I've contributed whilst having to deal with your constant nit-picking pedantism and, in particular, the way you misrepresent what I've posted then attack that.

The record will show how small-minded you are.

Try a debate with me sometime. You bring your arguments and I'll bring mine. You're the big man who knows it all so why not? How about the identification of Gloria Calvery?  :D
You and the other John share a common trait, it's something I really dislike which is why I have to deal with so much irrelevant heat from the two of you.

You never contribute - you just take away from those who do.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on October 31, 2020, 06:55:59 AM
As we're getting personal John...
Out of everything I've posted you chose a really telling quote:

"I'm constantly putting things out there to be knocked down which is something I welcome."

This is something that is true of me, I am constantly putting out ideas, theories and arguments which are there to be knocked down. This is something you certainly don't do. You constantly snipe at the work others are putting out without ever putting out your own.
I find the way you operate to be really cowardly.
The good thing about the forum is that it's a record and I will proudly hold up what I've contributed whilst having to deal with your constant nit-picking pedantism and, in particular, the way you misrepresent what I've posted then attack that.

The record will show how small-minded you are.

Try a debate with me sometime. You bring your arguments and I'll bring mine. You're the big man who knows it all so why not? How about the identification of Gloria Calvery?  :D
You and the other John share a common trait, it's something I really dislike which is why I have to deal with so much irrelevant heat from the two of you.

You never contribute - you just take away from those who do.
Mr O'meara has appeared, only six months into his membership here, as an expert ( sic) as to the JFK assassination. He claims to have read the work of the Tom Purvis.
Mr O'meara: have you examined the "irregular " aspects of JFK'S  back wound?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 03, 2020, 01:43:17 AM
Getting back to how bad the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter Hoax is. So far we have the following cast of characters involved in the hoax:

Will Fritz - Captain, Dallas Police Dept.
Karen Westbrook - Employee, South-Western Publishing Co.
James W. Bookhout - Special Agent, FBI
Roy Truly - Superintendent, TSBD
Marvin Johnson - Detective, Dallas Police Dept.
Jeraldean Reid - Clerical Supervisor, TSBD
Marrion L Baker - Officer, Dallas Police Dept.

So, who is organising this disparate crew? Who is directing the hoax?
Not the FBI, it would appear. The 11/24/63 report on Oswald's interrogation by Special Agent Bookhout contains the following:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book
Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building,
having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer
came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there
. Mr. Truly was present
and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and
continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor
and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room."

The report states that Oswald was drinking a Coke when Baker confronted him. Remember, if this is a hoax then Bookhout has simply made this detail up. However, it completely contradicts the WC testimony of Baker and Truly who are both unequivocal that Oswald had nothing in his hands at the time of the encounter. Why aren't Baker and Truly going along with the FBI line?
If the FBI aren't co-ordinating the hoax then it must be the Dallas Police Department.
Apparently not. The interrogation report of Captain Will Fritz contains the following:

“I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he
said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor. Mr. Truly had told me that
one of the police officers had stopped this man immediately after the shooting somewhere
near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him.
He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in.”

Again, if this is something being made up as part of a hoax why does it contradict the WC testimonies of Baker and Truly. Whoever's organising the hoax isn't doing a very good job. The problem is the speed at which Baker and Truly testify to getting up to the lunchroom. Rather than allow Oswald time to comfortably get down from the 6th floor and help himself a Coke Baker and Truly, according to the hoax, race up there as quickly as possible barely allowing time for Oswald to get down from the 6th let alone buy himself a Coke. Why didn't they just add about 30 seconds to the time taken to get up to Oswald? What kind of hoax is this?
Jeraldean Reid's handwritten statement taken the day after the assassination has the phrase "he had a Coke in his hand" written separately from her main statement, to be inserted when typed up. This appears to be the earliest mention of the Coke but why has it been added?
Baker's FBI handwritten statement of 09/23/64 contains the following paragraph:

"On the second [floor], where the lunch room is located, I saw a man standing in the lunch room, drinking a coke. He was alone in the lunch room at this time.

The phrase "drinking a coke" has been crossed out! The coke is inserted in Reid's statement and crossed out in Baker's. It seems clear that someone is lying somewhere but if this is a hoax why is it so complicated? Why are so many people involved? In a previous post I demonstrated how easy it is to construct a simple lie that would establish Oswald's guilt convincingly. This hoax does the opposite.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 03, 2020, 10:04:32 AM
Mr O'meara has appeared, only six months into his membership here, as an expert ( sic) as to the JFK assassination. He claims to have read the work of the Tom Purvis.
Mr O'meara: have you examined the "irregular " aspects of JFK'S  back wound?
The autopsy report indicates an irregular wound of entry.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 03, 2020, 10:38:55 AM
The autopsy report indicates an irregular wound of entry.

Wrong thread John.
This is about Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the assassination.
Start a different thread and I'll gladly participate but let's try and keep this on track.
 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 04, 2020, 04:45:57 AM
Wrong thread John.
This is about Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the assassination.
Start a different thread and I'll gladly participate but let's try and keep this on track.
 Thumb1:
Oswald was mentioned in a 4th floor encounter.
You haven't explained why that became a 2nd floor encounter
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 04, 2020, 12:02:51 PM
Oswald was mentioned in a 4th floor encounter.
You haven't explained why that became a 2nd floor encounter

Is this the 4th floor encounter Dorothy Garner didn't see?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 04, 2020, 08:33:20 PM
Let's add police chief Jesse Curry to the expanding list of those involved in the 2FLRE Hoax. The morning after the assassination Peggy Simpson, an AP staff writer, recorded this in her typewritten preparatory notes:

  [Police Chief Curry] said the first description of oswald as a possible suspect in the
slaying came from a policeman who saw him in the lunchroom of the building.
  "he was sitting in the lunchroom and one of my officers drew a weapon
on him," Curry said.
"the manager said, however, that oswald worked in the building, so the
officer let him go."


Curry, Fritz, Westbrook, Truly, Baker, Reid, Johnson, Bookhout ... who else?
How complicated is this going to get?

Remember, this is how simple it could have been:

Baker - As we made our way up past the 6th floor I saw a man shifting boxes in the southeast corner. Mr Truly assured me the man was an employee so we carried on our way. Later I identified the man as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Two people. Airtight ID of the suspect at the shooter's location.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 05, 2020, 12:31:44 AM
Baker has Oswald on the sixth floor?
Is this satire?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 05, 2020, 02:50:41 AM
Baker has Oswald on the sixth floor?
Is this satire?

I think it's best to read through the last few posts before just joining in.
In a previous post I was demonstrating how easy it would be to make up a fake encounter to establish Oswald's guilt rather than the insanely complex 2FLRE Hoax. To get a better understanding it would help to go back to that post and read forward.
Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 05, 2020, 05:33:58 AM
I think it's best to read through the last few posts before just joining in.
In a previous post I was demonstrating how easy it would be to make up a fake encounter to establish Oswald's guilt rather than the insanely complex 2FLRE Hoax. To get a better understanding it would help to go back to that post and read forward.
Just a suggestion.
Yeah. The important thing is, the second floor encounter never happened.
Why? I have no idea why it was created. Nor do you. Just like you have no idea what happened behind the sign. We, in the reality based community, don't guess.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 05, 2020, 09:29:08 AM

 "the reality based community"



 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 05, 2020, 01:38:48 PM

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 05, 2020, 05:03:55 PM
Curry, Fritz, Westbrook, Truly, Baker, Reid, Johnson, Bookhout ... who else?

Let's get real here.  The only people who know whether there was a "2nd floor lunchroom encounter" or not are Truly, Baker, and Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 05, 2020, 05:32:01 PM
Let's get real here.  The only people who know whether there was a "2nd floor lunchroom encounter" or not are Truly, Baker, and Oswald.

The issue is how many people knew there was a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter hoax.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on November 08, 2020, 09:30:24 PM
The issue is how many people knew there was a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter hoax.
3rd or 4th floor encounter. First day statement. Mr. O'Meara.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 08, 2020, 10:07:05 PM
3rd or 4th floor encounter. First day statement. Mr. O'Meara.

The hoax is definitely set in the second floor lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 08, 2020, 10:39:13 PM
The issue is how many people knew there was a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter hoax.

Baker+Truly+Oswald

You do the math
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 08, 2020, 11:39:17 PM
Baker+Truly+Oswald

You do the math

Your talking about the actual encounter not the fake encounter
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on November 20, 2020, 05:13:16 PM
In respect to the 2nd floor encounter in the lunchroom w/the wrongly accused, It did not happen. It's that simple really. First, let's take into account the actual truth before a hastily contrived script after the fact rears its deceptive offerings:

Marrion Baker's same day affidavit (bold emphasis mine to illustrate a key point ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


Baker's same day statement alone sums up the actual truth when compared to a hastily contrived script that follows a day later. Moreover, the wrongly accused did Not, repeat did not fit Mr. Baker's description (the wrongly accused weighed in 34lbs less than the individual Baker actually encounters. Again, the wrongly accused weighed only 131lbs, nowhere near 34lbs heavier. Also, it's important to note, the individual was, quote, "walking away from the stairway". What part of this observation substantiates an encounter in a room, let alone a lunchroom floors below?

Again, What part of walking away from a stairway has anything to do with being inside a lunchroom

The phantom 2nd floor encounter w/the wrongly accused is just that, phantom "evidence" mired knee deep in horse manure amid a hastily contrived script the day after to frame an innocent party.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on November 20, 2020, 05:33:46 PM
Note the 131lb weight of the wrongly accused compared to the actual 165lb individual Baker encounters walking away from the stairway, nowhere near or inside a lunchroom ---->

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=389&tab=page

The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 22, 2020, 11:36:49 PM
In respect to the 2nd floor encounter in the lunchroom w/the wrongly accused, It did not happen. It's that simple really. First, let's take into account the actual truth before a hastily contrived script after the fact rears its deceptive offerings:

Marrion Baker's same day affidavit (bold emphasis mine to illustrate a key point ---->

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


Baker's same day statement alone sums up the actual truth when compared to a hastily contrived script that follows a day later. Moreover, the wrongly accused did Not, repeat did not fit Mr. Baker's description (the wrongly accused weighed in 34lbs less than the individual Baker actually encounters. Again, the wrongly accused weighed only 131lbs, nowhere near 34lbs heavier. Also, it's important to note, the individual was, quote, "walking away from the stairway". What part of this observation substantiates an encounter in a room, let alone a lunchroom floors below?

Again, What part of walking away from a stairway has anything to do with being inside a lunchroom

The phantom 2nd floor encounter w/the wrongly accused is just that, phantom "evidence" mired knee deep in horse manure amid a hastily contrived script the day after to frame an innocent party.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

You're completely missing the point Alan.
You argue how unlikely the "official" version of things is but the point I'm making is how utterly ridiculous the "Second Floor Encounter Hoax" is. It's utterly pathetic. In an earlier post I've already demonstrated how easy it would be to construct an airtight fake encounter. How can you account for how many people are involved in this so-called hoax? How can you account for how the hoaxers contradict each other? Who is directing this hoax?
As for your point about Baker, if, as people like yourself point out, Baker is in the same room as Oswald when he gives his affidavit, why is his description of the man he encountered different from the man sat right in front of him?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on November 25, 2020, 09:04:04 PM
You're completely missing the point Alan.
You argue how unlikely the "official" version of things is but the point I'm making is how utterly ridiculous the "Second Floor Encounter Hoax" is. It's utterly pathetic. In an earlier post I've already demonstrated how easy it would be to construct an airtight fake encounter. How can you account for how many people are involved in this so-called hoax? How can you account for how the hoaxers contradict each other? Who is directing this hoax?
As for your point about Baker, if, as people like yourself point out, Baker is in the same room as Oswald when he gives his affidavit, why is his description of the man he encountered different from the man sat right in front of him?

Good afternoon, Mr. O'meara

Until actual evidence presents itself that at least one more person--besides Mr. Piper (Eddie) actually confirms they saw the tandem of Baker & Roy Truly ascend the backstairs together it did not happen. Moreover, what's most disturbing about even Mr. Piper's acknowledgment of them being together is the following statements ---->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
Mr. BALL And where were you?
Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.


Critical thinkers--given Mr. Piper's expressed doubt about just who he sees w/Roy Truly are left to wonder why he cannot simply confirm he saw a white helmeted motorcycle officer in long black boots w/Roy Truly IF indeed the tandem were together.

I do believe that Baker and Roy Truly came together at some point that afternoon (just not the timing sequence pushed by the hastily contrived script to frame an innocent party). I believe they encountered the MUCH larger man (165lbs) than the wrongly accused (131lbs) on an upper floor beyond the 2nd floor lunchroom, let alone inside it.  However, once the hastily contrived script raises its deceptive head the next day to reinvent. revise and ignore the same day events, the stench of horse manure becomes rather obvious.

Then there's this exchange ----> 

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.


Critical-thinkers are left to wonder what exactly was Roy Truly up to over in the sniper's nest BEFORE the gun and shell casings were found...

Again, I would believe the exploits of Baker & Roy Truly if more than a single lone person can account for them being near the backstairs together. Only Mr. Piper, 1-69 witnesses does so. I will never be convinced that Ms. Adams, etc were deaf and/or blind to account for the reason they didn't bear witness to seeing the tandem together.

Still wondering aloud why Roy Truly was over in the sniper's nest BEFORE the gun and shell casings were found. Hmm



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on November 26, 2020, 01:11:00 AM
Good afternoon, Mr. O'meara

Until actual evidence presents itself that at least one more person--besides Mr. Piper (Eddie) actually confirms they saw the tandem of Baker & Roy Truly ascend the backstairs together it did not happen. Moreover, what's most disturbing about even Mr. Piper's acknowledgment of them being together is the following statements ---->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
Mr. BALL And where were you?
Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.


Critical thinkers--given Mr. Piper's expressed doubt about just who he sees w/Roy Truly are left to wonder why he cannot simply confirm he saw a white helmeted motorcycle officer in long black boots w/Roy Truly IF indeed the tandem were together.

Good evening Mr. Ford

You must surely be aware of the Stroud Document which contains a reference to Dorothy Garner seeing Truly and a policeman coming up the stairs. As we now have the evidence you seek we can conclude the ascent of Truly and Baker did happen.

Quote
I do believe that Baker and Roy Truly came together at some point that afternoon (just not the timing sequence pushed by the hastily contrived script to frame an innocent party). I believe they encountered the MUCH larger man (165lbs) than the wrongly accused (131lbs) on an upper floor beyond the 2nd floor lunchroom, let alone inside it.  However, once the hastily contrived script raises its deceptive head the next day to reinvent. revise and ignore the same day events, the stench of horse manure becomes rather obvious.

In a conversation with Barry Ernest, Garner states that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor window almost immediately, something confirmed by both Styles and Adams. She followed them out of the office to a storage area and heard them clattering down the stairs. Shortly afterwards she saw Truly and the policeman come up. Entirely in keeping with Truly and Baker's testimony concerning the timing of their ascent. As she was in the storage area other women from the office entered to look through the west windows down on to the railroad area. This is confirmed by Bonnie Ray Williams who states seeing these women at the window as he, Jarman and Norman descended the stairs. Interestingly, before descending the stairs from the fifth floor, Williams testifies to seeing a white-helmeted officer on the fifth. Again, in keeping with the testimonies of Truly and Baker. The timings of these interactions fit perfectly with the ascent of Truly and Baker.
However, what really interests me is the "hastily contrived script" as you put it. I'd like to know who put it together and the timeline of it.

Quote
Then there's this exchange ----> 

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.


Critical-thinkers are left to wonder what exactly was Roy Truly up to over in the sniper's nest BEFORE the gun and shell casings were found...

Again, I would believe the exploits of Baker & Roy Truly if more than a single lone person can account for them being near the backstairs together. Only Mr. Piper, 1-69 witnesses does so. I will never be convinced that Ms. Adams, etc were deaf and/or blind to account for the reason they didn't bear witness to seeing the tandem together.

Still wondering aloud why Roy Truly was over in the sniper's nest BEFORE the gun and shell casings were found. Hmm

Adams and Styles were down the stairs and out the back door before Baker and Truly got there which is why they didn't see Baker and Truly.
It is interesting that Truly seems to state he was mooching around the sixth floor before the gun and shell casings were found. I'm going to look into that out of curiosity but it has nothing to do with the matter I'd like to pursue - who came up with the hastily contrived script and how did it come together in it's final form.
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 07, 2020, 03:33:49 AM
Pertaining to the Dorothy Garner time line of exiting the 4th floor office side door and having an unobstructed LOS to the rear stair, I estimated the time not later than 35 sec post shots.

1. Adams and Styles did leave the office as early as 10 sec post shots (hence their absence at the one open window of 4th floor in the Dillard photo) and reached the 1st floor, using the rear staircase  by 60 secs post shots. They exited 1st floor via  a roll up door right beside the stairs and the west elevator. Thus they neither saw, or were seen by,Baker and Truly as B/T began their diagonal approach across the 1st floor towards the rear stair and elevators at approx 65 sec post shots

2. For Mrs Garner to have a reasonable probability of having heard.”THEM” (ie; voices or some kind of specific noise like heels clacking,) , requires Mrs Garner arriving to the west window 4th floor just beside the rear staircase not later than approx 50 sec post shots.
The noises/voices heard were possibly transmitted via the open west elevator shaft ( the elevator being locked on the 5th floor) from Adams and Styles on the 2nd floor , passing by the elevator shaft.
Note: it is doubtful if voices at normal talking decibel range ( as opposed to shouting like Truly did) could be transmitted up an elevator shaft 4 floors below and heard by Garner some 25 ft away from the shaft on the 4th floor.

3.Therefore the lowest probable floor to have voice transmission heard is the  2nd floor passing by the west elevator shaft at 50 sec post shots by Adams and Styles

4. The distance from the 4th floor side office door to the staircase is approx 70 ft and if Mrs Garner walked at a normal 5ft/ sec pace, she would have her to exit at 35sec post shots to arrive and be in place near the stair by 50 sec post shots

5. It is impossible for Oswald to have reached the 4th floor landing in 35 secs, let alone cross 15 more ft landing and also go down approx 1/4th so being completely out of LOS of

6.Oswald at best could reach the 4th floor landing, cross it, and go down part of the 4th to 3rd staircase not earlier than approx 60 secs shots

A. 5 secs to slowly withdraw rifle from
SE window 6th floor TSBD and exit the SN
B.25 sec travel 180ft at double time speed 8ft/ sec ( 3 secs added for acceleration and acceleration to full
Stop.
C.5 sec to wedge rifle into the gap between walls of boxes with only 1”gap
D. 5 sec travel to top step of staircase To begin descent from 6th floor
E. This at 40 sec post shots, earliest probable time to begin a descent down the staircase.
F. Fastest probable descent via 18 step staircase and 15 to 20 ft of landing distance is approx 10 sec/ floor= 60 sec to reach 4th floor, cross landing and begin down staircase to 3rd floor.

Note: above times do NOT include any time for wiping prints off the rifle this a question if such wiping could occur Simultaneously while running with rifle in hand. If that is improbable then about 5-7 more secs must be added.

7. If Mrs Garner waits until 60 secs posts shots before exiting the 4th floor office door, she would have arrived near the staircase at 73 seconds , thus impossible to have heard Adams and Styles voices/heels clacking or whatever it was they made Garner decide she did in fact hear “THEM” on the staircase, The reason being that Adams and Styles are OUT OF THE BUILDING by 65 sec post shots!

If Mrs Garner is still alive ? It would be a slam dunk end to the WC timeline if she should categorically state having heard  Adams and Stylez voices or some specific noise such as double pair of heels clacking.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on December 07, 2020, 07:34:18 AM
The hoax is definitely set in the second floor lunchroom.

Explain your reasoning of this being a "hoax". 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 07, 2020, 11:42:39 AM
Explain your reasoning of this being a "hoax".

Are you aware that the second floor lunchroom encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly, as reported by Baker and Truly in their WC testimonies, is thought, by some to be a hoax, it never happened, it was made up?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 09, 2020, 11:19:09 AM
Explain your reasoning of this being a "hoax".

As I say Rick, for certain parties it is important that this encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom didn't happen. It really spoils their models for what happened that day.
So they propose the whole thing is a hoax and there seems to be plenty of contradictory testimony to support this assertion.
But the "Hoax Theory" is put forward as a reality that explains certain things and, to my mind at least, you don't just get to propose something as a reality then not explain the "mechanics" of this reality.
You don't just conjure up something out of thin air as a reality then not justify the basis of that reality.
So, if the Hoax is real:

Who created it?
What are it's origins?
Who is directing it?
Who is involved?

These are simple, reasonable questions that must be answered by anyone proposing the "2FLRE Hoax Theory" as a reality.
Anyone who looks into this will quickly discover how ridiculous the notion of the Hoax is. As soon as one tries to explain the Hoax as a reality it vanishes leaving the prospect that the encounter did indeed take place.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on December 09, 2020, 05:47:06 PM
As I say Rick, for certain parties it is important that this encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom didn't happen. It really spoils their models for what happened that day.
So they propose the whole thing is a hoax and there seems to be plenty of contradictory testimony to support this assertion.
But the "Hoax Theory" is put forward as a reality that explains certain things and, to my mind at least, you don't just get to propose something as a reality then not explain the "mechanics" of this reality.
You don't just conjure up something out of thin air as a reality then not justify the basis of that reality.
So, if the Hoax is real:

Who created it?
What are it's origins?
Who is directing it?
Who is involved?

These are simple, reasonable questions that must be answered by anyone proposing the "2FLRE Hoax Theory" as a reality.
Anyone who looks into this will quickly discover how ridiculous the notion of the Hoax is. As soon as one tries to explain the Hoax as a reality it vanishes leaving the prospect that the encounter did indeed take place.
Good post. And your questions about how this second floor "hoax" was undertaken - who directed it, who wrote the script, how did they get the "actors" to follow is - can be applied to a myriad of claims by conspiracists about how the evidence was manufactured or planted or falsified.

The general conspiracy claim (yes, there are many) is that a wide range of people including both powerful figures who directed/ordered it and ordinary people who carried it out at some point and in some way and in some place got together and carried out the assassination of the president of the United States. Again, the president; this was not robbing a 7/11. When we ask for evidence for this we really get nothing. It's all conjecture, speculation and theories. It's been more than half a century and all of these people who were involved remained silent? It's absurd.

You cannot carry out the intricate conspiracy that the general conspiracists claim happened. Not carry it out. Not keep it quiet. Not plan it in secrecy. It simply cannot be done. But I'm drinking the government Kool-aid and "Look at all of these odd things!!" and JFK was hated and he was going to end the Cold War and pull out of Vietnam and they had to stop him and et cetera et cetera
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on December 10, 2020, 12:33:39 AM
As I say Rick, for certain parties it is important that this encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom didn't happen. It really spoils their models for what happened that day.
So they propose the whole thing is a hoax and there seems to be plenty of contradictory testimony to support this assertion.
But the "Hoax Theory" is put forward as a reality that explains certain things and, to my mind at least, you don't just get to propose something as a reality then not explain the "mechanics" of this reality.
You don't just conjure up something out of thin air as a reality then not justify the basis of that reality.
So, if the Hoax is real:

Who created it?
What are it's origins?
Who is directing it?
Who is involved?

These are simple, reasonable questions that must be answered by anyone proposing the "2FLRE Hoax Theory" as a reality.
Anyone who looks into this will quickly discover how ridiculous the notion of the Hoax is. As soon as one tries to explain the Hoax as a reality it vanishes leaving the prospect that the encounter did indeed take place.

Who created it?
>>> 'They'

What are it's origins?
>>> People are saying

Who is directing it?
>>> 'They'

Who is involved?
>>> Anybody but Oswald
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 10, 2020, 11:01:04 AM
Good post. And your questions about how this second floor "hoax" was undertaken - who directed it, who wrote the script, how did they get the "actors" to follow is - can be applied to a myriad of claims by conspiracists about how the evidence was manufactured or planted or falsified.

The general conspiracy claim (yes, there are many) is that a wide range of people including both powerful figures who directed/ordered it and ordinary people who carried it out at some point and in some way and in some place got together and carried out the assassination of the president of the United States. Again, the president; this was not robbing a 7/11. When we ask for evidence for this we really get nothing. It's all conjecture, speculation and theories. It's been more than half a century and all of these people who were involved remained silent? It's absurd.

You cannot carry out the intricate conspiracy that the general conspiracists claim happened. Not carry it out. Not keep it quiet. Not plan it in secrecy. It simply cannot be done. But I'm drinking the government Kool-aid and "Look at all of these odd things!!" and JFK was hated and he was going to end the Cold War and pull out of Vietnam and they had to stop him and et cetera et cetera

Hi Steve,
you've extrapolated quite a bit from a specific incident to the assassination as a whole. As I point out, it is the case that anyone supporting the 2FLRE Hoax theory should answer certain questions relating to it's reality but the same is true for your position.

In reply #640 I responded to a post of Bill's with this (he failed to respond):

"If it was as simple as that Bill then everyone's story would be very straight-forward. No need for the deception, falsehoods and confusion that permeate the testimonies of many who worked at the TSBD. Everyone would have a pretty good idea of where they were and what they were doing, sure some insignificant details would get mixed up, that's human nature, but the wholesale fabrications that take place are ridiculous.
We can agree to disagree on that. You may be able to rationalise it but it's not something I can ignore."


Why is there clearly so much deception and falsehood in the WC testimonies of certain TSBD employees. If it was as straight-forward as you propose none of this confusion would ever have arisen.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 12, 2020, 01:15:33 AM
Jeesh, these last few pages of 'debate' are soooooooooooo 2010!

Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps still can't

---------------------find a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man

---------------------explain the ridiculous shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman

---------------------explain away the suppression (for over five decades) of Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke BEFORE going "outside to watch the P. Parade".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on December 12, 2020, 09:40:52 AM

Oswald said that he went outside to watch the parade. There is a figure on the front steps who looks like him. So who else could it be?

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 14, 2020, 01:23:23 AM
Jeesh, these last few pages of 'debate' are soooooooooooo 2010!

Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps still can't

---------------------find a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man

---------------------explain the ridiculous shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman

---------------------explain away the suppression (for over five decades) of Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke BEFORE going "outside to watch the P. Parade".

It's great to have your expertise back on board Mr Ford.
As these questions are soooooo 2010 just clear them up quickly and we can move on:
Who created the 2FLRE Hoax?
Who is directing the Hoax?
Who is involved?

These are obviously simple questions for someone of your experience. I would be really surprised if you couldn't answer them or you were evasive.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 14, 2020, 08:24:19 AM
With regard to person in white shirt with arms raised shading their eyes , IMO that person is not likely Sarah Stanton for the following reasons.

1. The forearms appear too skinny , unlike the fatty arms of Sarah
2. The position of “shading eyes” person is not near enough to Pauline Sanders to be considered “beside me” per Sanders statement
3. There is more probable LOS from shading eyes person to the JFK limo after it passed, in contrast to where prayerblob iis located ( blocked by actual side of bldg,
4. The position in the center of the front steps is more probable to have seen Baker running to and up the steps, in contrast to prayerblob position in west corner where LOS to the east half of front steps ( the side Baker went up, thus being seen by Pauline Sanders) , more probable to be blocked by  BWF , Joe Molina and Shelly occupying the 4 ft wide landing space just in front of the right side entrance door.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on December 14, 2020, 08:50:24 AM
As I say Rick, for certain parties it is important that this encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom didn't happen. It really spoils their models for what happened that day.
So they propose the whole thing is a hoax and there seems to be plenty of contradictory testimony to support this assertion.
But the "Hoax Theory" is put forward as a reality that explains certain things and, to my mind at least, you don't just get to propose something as a reality then not explain the "mechanics" of this reality.
You don't just conjure up something out of thin air as a reality then not justify the basis of that reality.
So, if the Hoax is real:

Who created it?
What are it's origins?
Who is directing it?
Who is involved?

These are simple, reasonable questions that must be answered by anyone proposing the "2FLRE Hoax Theory" as a reality.
Anyone who looks into this will quickly discover how ridiculous the notion of the Hoax is. As soon as one tries to explain the Hoax as a reality it vanishes leaving the prospect that the encounter did indeed take place.

'As soon as one tries to explain the Hoax as a reality it vanishes leaving the prospect that the encounter did indeed take place'
>>> Exacfly what I found a few years ago. I came here looking for a conspiracy, but these pet theories just seem to lose momentum, eventually stopping dead in their tracks: A case of being all dressed up and no place to go.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 14, 2020, 02:52:40 PM
It's great to have your expertise back on board Mr Ford.
As these questions are soooooo 2010 just clear them up quickly and we can move on:
Who created the 2FLRE Hoax?
Who is directing the Hoax?
Who is involved?

These are obviously simple questions for someone of your experience. I would be really surprised if you couldn't answer them or you were evasive.

 Thumb1:

Easy peasy, Mr O'Meara!

Who created the 2FLRE Hoax? Looks like SA Nat Pinkston played a key role.
Who directed the 2FLRE Hoax? See above!
Who is involved? Officer Baker, Mr Truly and Mrs Reid: pressurized into playing along. Key 'investigators' (i.e. cover-up merchants) in FBI, DPD and SS agreed on 2FLRE as least worst damage-limitation strategy-------limiting the damage caused, of course, by the fact that a) Mr Oswald had had his encounter with Officer Baker/Mr Truly at the front entrance; b) Officer Baker/Mr Truly had subsequently encountered a different man walking away from the rear stairway 'on the third or fourth floor'.

Now! Do let us know when you are in a position to

---------------------find a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man

---------------------explain the ridiculous shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman

---------------------explain away the suppression (for over five decades) of Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke BEFORE going "outside to watch P. Parade".

So far you haven't done any better on any of these than the original Mr Doyle did!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 15, 2020, 05:37:27 AM
There is no other place for The Fat Lady to be in that 4.5 ft width of landing other than in the west corner where prayerblob is
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 15, 2020, 06:30:46 AM
The reasons:

1. Pauline Sanders locates Stanton (at least for some segment of time,) as located beside herself on the east side of the landing. However , there does not appear to be a fat lady next to Sanders in the Couch and Wiegman film frames

It is doubtful that the fat lady would have remained blocking the front door, and therefore opted to move to another position from which she would be less an obstacle plus also have a better LOS to at least the corner of Houston and Elm St.

2. Pauline Sanders FBI statement includes reference to seeing Baker, while Sarah has no such statement. If Sarah was still standing beside Pauline (hence in front of  the door) its questionable how Stanton could have missed Baker running virtually right into her. Would not Stanton have included this observation in her FBI statement just as Pauline did, if such sighting of Baker did occur?

3. Prayerblob height is approx 5’3” per John Mytton’s analysis in another lengthy thread. Sarah Stanton is allegedly not taller than 5’4”.

4. Sarah Stanton has not been absolutely identified as on of the other women visible in the Weigman and Couch Film or Altgens no. 6 photo

5. Mr Fords proposition that white shirt person shading their eyes (to the right of Billy ) is Sarah Stanton?  Is doubtful per reasons such as  A. skinny forearms and  B. location having LOS to JFK after passing by TSBD entrance, in contrast to Sarah Stanton  statement inferring her LOS was blocked after the limo passed.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 15, 2020, 10:19:40 AM
The reasons:

1. Pauline Sanders locates Stanton (at least for some segment of time,) as located beside herself on the east side of the landing. However , there does not appear to be a fat lady next to Sanders in the Couch and Wiegman film frames

It is doubtful that the fat lady would have remained blocking the front door, and therefore opted to move to another position from which she would be less an obstacle plus also have a better LOS to at least the corner of Houston and Elm St.

2. Pauline Sanders FBI statement includes reference to seeing Baker, while Sarah has no such statement. If Sarah was still standing beside Pauline (hence in front of  the door) its questionable how Stanton could have missed Baker running virtually right into her. Would not Stanton have included this observation in her FBI statement just as Pauline did, if such sighting of Baker did occur?

3. Prayerblob height is approx 5’3” per John Mytton’s analysis in another lengthy thread. Sarah Stanton is allegedly not taller than 5’4”.

4. Sarah Stanton has not been absolutely identified as on of the other women visible in the Weigman and Couch Film or Altgens no. 6 photo

5. Mr Fords proposition that white shirt person shading their eyes (to the right of Billy ) is Sarah Stanton?  Is doubtful per reasons such as  A. skinny forearms and  B. location having LOS to JFK after passing by TSBD entrance, in contrast to Sarah Stanton  statement inferring her LOS was blocked after the limo passed.

LOL. Not one of the above arguments holds water, Mr Mason. But the fact that Ms Stanton is still the contorted best that Team Keep LHO Off Them Front Steps can come up with by way of alternative candidate for Prayer Man tells us just how much trouble Team Keep LHO Off Them Front Steps is in.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 15, 2020, 12:11:18 PM
Easy peasy, Mr O'Meara!

Who created the 2FLRE Hoax? Looks like SA Nat Pinkston played a key role.
Who directed the 2FLRE Hoax? See above!
Who is involved? Officer Baker, Mr Truly and Mrs Reid: pressurized into playing along. Key 'investigators' (i.e. cover-up merchants) in FBI, DPD and SS agreed on 2FLRE as least worst damage-limitation strategy-------limiting the damage caused, of course, by the fact that a) Mr Oswald had had his encounter with Officer Baker/Mr Truly at the front entrance; b) Officer Baker/Mr Truly had subsequently encountered a different man walking away from the rear stairway 'on the third or fourth floor'.

Now! Do let us know when you are in a position to

---------------------find a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man

---------------------explain the ridiculous shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman

---------------------explain away the suppression (for over five decades) of Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke BEFORE going "outside to watch P. Parade".

So far you haven't done any better on any of these than the original Mr Doyle did!

 Thumb1:

What role did Pinkston play? What do you have to back this assertion up? (or is this more Ford Fantasia)
How do you explain Karen Westbrook Scranton's account of Mrs Reid telling the girls about seeing LHO with a coke in his hand while they were all "milling around" in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
(29:20 in the interview below)


"a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man"

Stanton is a thousand times more credible than Oswald.
There is zero credibility to suggest it's Oswald (no matter how much you fraudulently fake the evidence to support your ridiculous claim)

"explain the ridiculous shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman"

I didn't realise this needed explaining.
Do you believe it's an attempt to hide someone? Do tell

"explain away the suppression (for over five decades) of Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke BEFORE going "outside to watch P. Parade"."

Who is claiming he went for a coke AFTER going outside to watch the "parade"?
More importantly, isn't LHO getting a coke from the 2FLR part of the elaborate Hoax? Isn't this a detail made up by the Hoaxers?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 15, 2020, 07:44:18 PM
More importantly, isn't LHO getting a coke from the 2FLR part of the elaborate Hoax? Isn't this a detail made up by the Hoaxers?

I'll type this real slow, Mr O'Meara, so you have a chance of keeping up:

The 2FLRE hoax was developed---by the 'investigating' authorities, after the assassination---on the basis of a real visit by Mr Oswald, before the assassination, to the second floor lunchroom for a coke.

The reason you're still obsessing over 2010 talking points is that you still can't find a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man, you still can't explain the shadow down Mr Lovelady's side in Wiegman, and you're still in denial about Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade". You're as tragically lost as the original Mr Doyle was!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 16, 2020, 01:11:00 AM
I'll type this real slow, Mr O'Meara, so you have a chance of keeping up:

The 2FLRE hoax was developed---by the 'investigating' authorities, after the assassination---on the basis of a real visit by Mr Oswald, before the assassination, to the second floor lunchroom for a coke.

The reason you're still obsessing over 2010 talking points is that you still can't find a credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man, you still can't explain the shadow down Mr Lovelady's side in Wiegman, and you're still in denial about Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade". You're as tragically lost as the original Mr Doyle was!

As I thought - evasion.
Explain Westbrook Scranton's recollection of Mrs Reid claiming to see LHO with a coke in hand. Reid was claiming this within an hour of the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 16, 2020, 01:58:55 AM

The 2FLRE hoax was developed---by the 'investigating' authorities, after the assassination---on the basis of a real visit by Mr Oswald, before the assassination, to the second floor lunchroom for a coke.


Explain this:

The 11/24/63 report on Oswald's interrogation by Special Agent Bookhout contains the following:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book
Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building,
having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer
came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present
and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and
continued through the building.
Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor
and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room."

Why does Oswald have a coke in this version of the 'hoax' but it disappears by the time Baker and Truly testify before the WC?

You say Nat Pinkston was involved, what do you have to back this up?
You say the hoax was developed by "the 'investigating' authorities, after the assassination". What do you have to back this up?

More Fantasia.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 16, 2020, 02:38:52 AM
If PM is Oswald, why did not the conspirators blacken out that west corner using the same whatever black masking that is alleged by Mr. Ford to be creating a shadow on the side of Lovelady!

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 16, 2020, 10:41:19 AM
If PM is Oswald, why did not the conspirators blacken out that west corner using the same whatever black masking that is alleged by Mr. Ford to be creating a shadow on the side of Lovelady!

What a great question.

Add that to the list of questions you're going to have to avoid Mr Ford.

Welcome back
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 16, 2020, 10:55:32 AM
Here's a challenge for all of you who believe the 2FLRE was a hoax.

In proposing the Hoax you are proposing something 'real'. It must have been created by someone - who was it created by? Who is orchestrating the Hoax? It must have participants - who is involved in the Hoax and to what extent?
How did the Hoax come into being?
What is the timeline for it?

You have reached into thin air and pulled out a new reality called the 2FLRE Hoax. Defend it. Prove it exists as a thing in it's own right.
If you believe in the 2FLRE Hoax don't just sit in the shadows waiting for these awkward questions to go away so you can just carry on believing it without any proof of it's reality.
Get your heads together.
Come up with something concrete.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 16, 2020, 08:24:29 PM
Explain this:

The 11/24/63 report on Oswald's interrogation by Special Agent Bookhout contains the following:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book
Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building,
having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer
came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present
and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and
continued through the building.
Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor
and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room."

Why does Oswald have a coke in this version of the 'hoax' but it disappears by the time Baker and Truly testify before the WC?

You say Nat Pinkston was involved, what do you have to back this up?
You say the hoax was developed by "the 'investigating' authorities, after the assassination". What do you have to back this up?

More Fantasia.

Yawn. The evolution of the interrogation reports has been covered in great detail multiple times in multiple venues since 2013, Mr O'Meara. But you wouldn't know that, seeing as you're stuck in 2010. Educate yourself, man!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 16, 2020, 08:29:34 PM
If PM is Oswald, why did not the conspirators blacken out that west corner using the same whatever black masking that is alleged by Mr. Ford to be creating a shadow on the side of Lovelady!

I'm not alleging it, Mr Mason, I'm stating the plain fact. If you disagree as to its being a plain fact, do feel free offer your own explanation of how that can be a real shadow.

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

I, Mr Zeon Mason, have an explanation for the shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman: _________________________________________ 

Over to you, sir! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 16, 2020, 08:31:08 PM
Here's a challenge for all of you who believe the 2FLRE was a hoax.

In proposing the Hoax you are proposing something 'real'. It must have been created by someone - who was it created by? Who is orchestrating the Hoax? It must have participants - who is involved in the Hoax and to what extent?
How did the Hoax come into being?
What is the timeline for it?

You have reached into thin air and pulled out a new reality called the 2FLRE Hoax. Defend it. Prove it exists as a thing in it's own right.
If you believe in the 2FLRE Hoax don't just sit in the shadows waiting for these awkward questions to go away so you can just carry on believing it without any proof of it's reality.
Get your heads together.
Come up with something concrete.

More cope, lol
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 16, 2020, 11:24:33 PM
If Lovelady flannel shirt hanging loosely ,  then possibly  the wind gusts of 15mph  at the time could have moved the loose shirt hanging on his right side outward in a way to create an shadow from the shirt.

Also, if his right arm is moved outward with elbow bent, it might cause additional shadow on his right.side.

I don’t a have a computer shadow program Nor have I have made a scale model of the front entrance and placed some adjustable figurines , so it’s only a reasoned speculation I’m
Offering here.

If someone has the shadow analysis graphics  program, please feel free to test the bent arm/elbow possible positions  and the shirt side moved outward farther from the right side of the body.

I’ve seen some previous computer shadow analysis in another thread that may be still here, however it was positioning a body with right arm hanging straight down near to the body and shirt as tucked.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 17, 2020, 02:24:29 AM
Yawn. The evolution of the interrogation reports has been covered in great detail multiple times in multiple venues since 2013, Mr O'Meara. But you wouldn't know that, seeing as you're stuck in 2010. Educate yourself, man!

As usual, not a single point answered.
I know there's no point in asking this but why don't you just give a quick overview of how the "evolution of the interrogation reports" relates to the creation of the 2FLRE Hoax.
And, if you have time, have a go at some of the points raised by your own assertions that you seem unable to back up.
For example, how is Nat Pinkston involved? You brought this up so you must have a reason for doing so.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 17, 2020, 04:25:07 AM
If Lovelady flannel shirt hanging loosely ,  then possibly  the wind gusts of 15mph  at the time could have moved the loose shirt hanging on his right side outward in a way to create an shadow from the shirt.

Certainly a novel suggestion, Mr Mason! Unfortunately, it's DOA. The Wiegman frames showing Mr Lovelady on the upper step should help you to see why...

(https://i.imgur.com/9p2SAay.gif)

Quote
Also, if his right arm is moved outward with elbow bent, it might cause additional shadow on his right.side.

Good luck getting all this shadow from a right arm moved outward with elbow bent, lol

(https://i.imgur.com/2KfvwSo.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 18, 2020, 12:29:15 PM
Isn't he just partly in shadow?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on December 18, 2020, 03:40:01 PM

 If it isn't Oswald why is NBC refusing to release the original Weigman and Darnell films? What are they trying to hide?


Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 18, 2020, 07:03:56 PM
Isn't he just partly in shadow?

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 20, 2020, 06:53:03 AM
Is there any way possible that the original film PM figure was darkened purposely  by overexposing a copy of the film  to hide PM figure?

If so, then the  shadow anomaly of Lovelady may be due to the Lovelady figure being cut and pasted from a position originally IN shadow (nearer west wall) to a position closer to the center hand rail. The conspirators did not attempt to remove the shadow as it was not deemed that anyone would likely notice the discrepancy, and the process to remove shadow perhaps considered  too risky  to do without leaving signs of alteration.

 
What would be the purpose , however to move Lovelady image if the conspirators had darkened the PM figure in fear it might be Oswald?

If there was NOT any alteration of the original film version of the PM figure, and the conspirators therefore unaware the PM figure may  resemble Oswald, then the purpose to move or add shadow to Lovelady must be due to some OTHER face/figure that was identified in the original film that the conspirators thought resembled Oswald.

Or if not Oswald , then whom else would the conspirators have thought it necessary to mask over with shadow added or by moving Lovelady image?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 20, 2020, 06:53:11 AM
Is there any way possible that the original film PM figure was darkened purposely  by overexposing a copy of the film  to hide PM figure?

If so, then the  shadow anomaly of Lovelady may be due to the Lovelady figure being cut and pasted from a position originally IN shadow (nearer west wall) to a position closer to the center hand rail. The conspirators did not attempt to remove the shadow as it was not deemed that anyone would likely notice the discrepancy, and the process to remove shadow perhaps considered  too risky  to do without leaving signs of alteration.

 
What would be the purpose , however to move Lovelady image if the conspirators had darkened the PM figure in fear it might be Oswald?

If there was NOT any alteration of the original film version of the PM figure, and the conspirators therefore unaware the PM figure may  resemble Oswald, then the purpose to move or add shadow to Lovelady must be due to some OTHER face/figure that was identified in the original film that the conspirators thought resembled Oswald.

Or if not Oswald , then whom else would the conspirators have thought it necessary to mask over with shadow added or by moving Lovelady image?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 20, 2020, 06:55:48 AM
Sorry that got double posted. May the moderator feel free remove the redundant post as I am unable to do so
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 20, 2020, 10:06:20 PM

If there was NOT any alteration of the original film version of the PM figure, and the conspirators therefore unaware the PM figure may  resemble Oswald, then the purpose to move or add shadow to Lovelady must be due to some OTHER face/figure that was identified in the original film that the conspirators thought resembled Oswald.

Or if not Oswald , then whom else would the conspirators have thought it necessary to mask over with shadow added or by moving Lovelady image?

Now we're getting places, Mr Mason.

I have previously wondered whether the someone else might not have been Mr Ken Duvall or Ms Carolyn Arnold...

However, what if what's being masked over is not someONE but someTHING-----------a something that, directly or indirectly, is somehow related to the question of Mr Oswald's whereabouts?

Ask yourself: what, most obviously, would the unshadowed image of Mr Lovelady have shown?

Answer: his right arm.

And along with that? The fact that he was wearing a long-sleeved shirt with sleeves not rolled up.

(https://i.imgur.com/9p2SAay.gif)

So what? Well, cf the blowup of Altgens 6 that Mr Walter Cronkite showed the nation the evening of the assassination:

(https://i.imgur.com/yyySEaE.jpg)

We see Mr Lovelady here (and yes, it is Mr Lovelady, not Mr Oswald!), but is that really Mr Lovelady's left arm we're seeing in front of him? What if it's not? And if not, what might it actually be?

(Remember: Altgens 6 is taken several seconds before the first Wiegman frame of that doorway!)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 21, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
Not sure what Mr Ford is suggesting as to some object needing to be blackened out  beside Lovelady.

My speculation is that it was necessary to hide black suit white tie man that is in Altgens 6 seemingly just behind Lovelady, yet his white shirt looks likes like it overlaps Lovelady left shoulder, in fact appears to be chopping off the upper shoulder.

I’ve read more that “Fedora” hat man is allegedly Mr Truly captured in Althens 6 but he is obscured by the woman seemingly holding a young boy with the Toboggan cap. The CT researcher suggesting that image of woman and child is fake and added after the white shirt and tie portion of Mr Truly was cut and pasted in to represent Mr Shellys alleged location at the top of the entrance steps.

If so, then would this would be to hide Oswald at a position BETWEEN Prayerblob and BW Frazier.

If Mr Ford is adamantly still of the opinion that PM is Oswald, then I’m
Still at a loss to explain these photographic “quirks” to cover up some one or some THING?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 21, 2020, 06:54:08 AM
Not sure what Mr Ford is suggesting as to some object needing to be blackened out  beside Lovelady.

I am suggesting that Mr Lovelady's covered, sleeved right arm is what needed to be blackened out.

(https://i.imgur.com/9p2SAay.gif)

Quote
(...)

If Mr Ford is adamantly still of the opinion that PM is Oswald, then I’m
Still at a loss to explain these photographic “quirks” to cover up some one or some THING?

I am suggesting that Mr Lovelady's sleeved right arm needed to be blackened out in Wiegman because they needed folks to believe that they were seeing his unsleeved left arm in Altgens---------when in fact that 'unsleeved left arm' of Mr Lovelady in Altgens was something else entirely:

(https://i.imgur.com/mGGd8Ds.gif)

Once again: remember that the Altgens photograph was taken several seconds before the first Wiegman frames of that doorway.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 22, 2020, 01:11:24 AM
It looks like a forearm imo, which is the left arm and if you can identify anything that is reflecting light at the wrist area, then it could be Oswalds shiny bracelet he wore on his Left hand as indicated in a photo of him in handcuffs

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 22, 2020, 12:25:20 PM
It looks like a forearm imo, which is the left arm and if you can identify anything that is reflecting light at the wrist area, then it could be Oswalds shiny bracelet he wore on his Left hand as indicated in a photo of him in handcuffs

Right arm, with soda bottle in hand

(https://i.imgur.com/mGGd8Ds.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 22, 2020, 09:38:44 PM
Is this image-----broadcast the evening of the assassination-----the closest the American public has ever come to seeing what the original Altgens 6 showed?

(https://i.imgur.com/hfEdX8M.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 22, 2020, 10:38:13 PM
In a nutshell, I believe this is the right arm (and coke) of Prayer Man---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/mGGd8Ds.gif)

---------------who just after this steps back (and up) into the shadows, where he will show up in Wiegman------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/qHIlwtM.gif)

-----------------and, a little later, Darnell-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/iH791wN.gif)

The reason for the fake shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman is to be found in Altgens: the Oswald-Did-It 'investigators' needed folks to believe Mr Lovelady had his sleeves rolled up in order to pass off what they knew to be Prayer Man's unsleeved right arm in Altgens as Mr Lovelady's unsleeved left arm.

Obviously, they only went to this trouble because Prayer Man = Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, the suspect who truthfully claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" after buying a coke in the second floor lunchroom.

(https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on December 22, 2020, 10:48:25 PM
Good evening,

First, before addressing Mr. O'meara's response to me in reply #670, certainly admire & respect the respective contributions of Mr. Clements, Mr. Plant and Mr. Ford within this thread. Well done gentlemen...way to go!

That said, out of respect for Mr. Ford's ongoing concentrated efforts/focus upon the shadow running along Mr. Lovelady's arm and what it may mean, I'll be brief in my response to Mr. O'meara and encourage him--if he agrees--to table his response until the discussion regarding  the shadow running alongside Mr. Lovelady's arm is adequately and thoroughly given the attention it deserves.

That said ---->

Good evening Mr. Ford

You must surely be aware of the Stroud Document which contains a reference to Dorothy Garner seeing Truly and a policeman coming up the stairs. As we now have the evidence you seek we can conclude the ascent of Truly and Baker did happen
.

Yes, of course, I am aware of the Stroud Document. However, seems you left out a few key details: (A) Mrs. Garner shared that she indeed saw Roy Truly several times that afternoon, but--her words not mine--do not recall precisely when; and, (B) note she said on one of those occasions when she saw Roy Truly she saw him accompanied by a policeman (the problem here is she does Not specifically detail Marrion Baker as that policeman).

Given all we know about this dear lady's attention to time & details (read Victoria Adams' critique of her keen boss), it's safe to come to the conclusion that IF it were Marrion Baker she would have said so. Moreover, IF it that policeman had been Marrion Baker she would have had the full advantage of four decades prior to her interview to have become familiar with him and Roy Truly's fictitious tale about their dash together up those backstairs. Even with that advantage, she did Not specifically name Baker as the policeman at that interval of the few times--her words, not mine--that she saw Roy truly that afternoon post assassination.

Again, Mr. O'meara, I'm willing to defer to the gentleman (Mr. Ford) already on the floor opening the discussion up further on the shadow running alongside Mr. Lovelady's arm: and, ask that you & I table our discussion for a later interval. That said, best wishes to all for a safe, happy & healthy holiday season right into the new year.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 24, 2020, 02:55:36 AM
It almost appears like the forearm (and hand) of the young black man at the lower west corner of the entrance steps, his hand raised up to shade his eyes as he is looking upwards at the facade of the TSBD

However, one must then question? Why this arm would be masked over with more of the grid pattern shirt of Lovelady added in the next versions of Altgens 6 photo.

It’s as though the earliest version of Althems was a rather sloppy 1st attempt at masking out whomever it was momentarily between the black man at the lower west corner and Lovelady on the steps behind.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 25, 2020, 02:49:59 AM

The reason for the fake shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman is to be found in Altgens: the Oswald-Did-It 'investigators' needed folks to believe Mr Lovelady had his sleeves rolled up in order to pass off what they knew to be Prayer Man's unsleeved right arm in Altgens as Mr Lovelady's unsleeved left arm.

Obviously, they only went to this trouble because Prayer Man = Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, the suspect who truthfully claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" after buying a coke in the second floor lunchroom.


 :D :D :D
In terms of fantastical Mr Ford fantasia this is next level.

Just for a laugh please explain how the investigating authorities knew it was Oswald's arm and, more importantly, why they would imagine anyone else would suspect it was Oswald's arm?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 25, 2020, 08:38:45 AM
:D :D :D
In terms of fantastical Mr Ford fantasia this is next level.

Just for a laugh please explain how the investigating authorities knew it was Oswald's arm and, more importantly, why they would imagine anyone else would suspect it was Oswald's arm?

Mr Oswald, in custody, told them exactly where he had been at the time of the shot. They established very quickly that he was telling the truth. The giveaway in Altgens? The bottle in the hand.

While you're there, Mr O'Meara-------how's your work on a non-fantastical explanation for the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman coming along? Your last communique on the subject was hilariously clueless!

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

Bottom line: until you, or anyone else in Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, can credibly explain this ridiculous shadow as a natural phenomenon, your claim that those front steps were not a site of enormous concern to the 'investigators' remains without foundation.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 27, 2020, 02:18:10 AM
I’m trying to envision how PM , while holding a bottle of Soda ( 1963 Dr. Pepper bottle with the solid white oval shaped logo?) , would move down far enough to the lower step next to black guy, and how PM would hold his bottle as he peeks around the corner.

IMO, he would use his RIGHT hand up against the west wall to stabilize himself  as he moves down a step or 2 while holding the bottle in his LEFT hand
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 27, 2020, 02:39:43 AM
Mr Oswald, in custody, told them exactly where he had been at the time of the shot. They established very quickly that he was telling the truth. The giveaway in Altgens? The bottle in the hand.

 :D :D :D

I really have missed you.
So Oswald told "them" exactly where he was at the time of the shot?
What do you base this on? What evidence do you have to support this claim?
You have none because, in typical Fantasia Ford style, you've just made this up and are trying to pass it off as something real.
You never change.
Oh, you also forgot to make up a reason as to why "they" would think anyone would recognise Oswald's arm in Altgens.

Now let's have a little look at a couple of images you yourself have posted. Both are close-ups of Altgens 6 but one is really heavily brightened so you can make your ridiculous argument (tampering with evidence again Mr Ford?)


(https://i.postimg.cc/htqyk1xS/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/zDs0hFxn/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)


In the 'normal' version of Altgens we can clearly see that the arm you are trying to pass off as Oswald's belongs to a black person ( :D :D :D this is brilliant)
How on earth do you explain this (I can't wait to hear what you come up with).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 27, 2020, 06:15:46 AM
A question remains, why the left arm of the Lovelady composite image in Altgens  appears to have a chopped off shoulder and  “v” shape” shadow under the chin.

The explanation of “leaning out” and the shoulder line at a downward angle does not exactly fit with a head which is perpendicular to the horizon line of the camera perspective

Also, whether the arm of black man upraised to shade his eyes , or someone with forearm holding soda, THAT ,being a stark difference relative to other versions of the Altgens no.6 photo, should be explained.

Mr. Ford ... over to you sir :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 27, 2020, 09:25:28 PM
I’m trying to envision how PM , while holding a bottle of Soda ( 1963 Dr. Pepper bottle with the solid white oval shaped logo?) , would move down far enough to the lower step next to black guy, and how PM would hold his bottle as he peeks around the corner.

IMO, he would use his RIGHT hand up against the west wall to stabilize himself  as he moves down a step or 2 while holding the bottle in his LEFT hand

Maybe, just maybe, PM isn't an elderly man!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 27, 2020, 09:28:33 PM
:D :D :D

I really have missed you.
So Oswald told "them" exactly where he was at the time of the shot?
What do you base this on? What evidence do you have to support this claim?
You have none because, in typical Fantasia Ford style, you've just made this up and are trying to pass it off as something real.
You never change.
Oh, you also forgot to make up a reason as to why "they" would think anyone would recognise Oswald's arm in Altgens.

Now let's have a little look at a couple of images you yourself have posted. Both are close-ups of Altgens 6 but one is really heavily brightened so you can make your ridiculous argument (tampering with evidence again Mr Ford?)


(https://i.postimg.cc/htqyk1xS/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/zDs0hFxn/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)


In the 'normal' version of Altgens we can clearly see that the arm you are trying to pass off as Oswald's belongs to a black person ( :D :D :D this is brilliant)
How on earth do you explain this (I can't wait to hear what you come up with).

More Doylesque cope, lol-------all because you can't for the life of you explain the shadow down Mr Lovelady..........

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 28, 2020, 11:48:58 AM
More Doylesque cope, lol-------all because you can't for the life of you explain the shadow down Mr Lovelady..........

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

How do you explain that the arm you're trying to pass off as Oswald's belongs to a black person?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 28, 2020, 07:27:16 PM
How do you explain that the arm you're trying to pass off as Oswald's belongs to a black person?

I guess you, with your customary laziness, missed my post #711. Do try to keep up in future!  Thumb1:

Now-------------can you, or can you not, explain how Mr Lovelady could possibly be standing in partial shadow here?

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 29, 2020, 01:16:25 PM
I guess you, with your customary laziness, missed my post #711. Do try to keep up in future!  Thumb1:

You really think you're going to get away without addressing this point?
You posted the following two images:

(https://i.postimg.cc/htqyk1xS/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/zDs0hFxn/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The image on the right is a close-up of the really bleached-out image you present in post #711 (I assume)
You have tried to pass off the arm of a black person as Oswald's.
You have used a really 'bleached-out' close-up of Altgens 6 to have us believe the arm belongs to a white person.
You have done this knowingly.
Even when your fraud has been pointed out you have carried on with your insanity.

Look at the two images above
Look at the arm
Look at how stupid you must think we all are
Are you going to carry on with your insanity?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 29, 2020, 07:02:10 PM
You really think you're going to get away without addressing this point?
You posted the following two images:

(https://i.postimg.cc/htqyk1xS/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/zDs0hFxn/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The image on the right is a close-up of the really bleached-out image you present in post #711 (I assume)
You have tried to pass off the arm of a black person as Oswald's.
You have used a really 'bleached-out' close-up of Altgens 6 to have us believe the arm belongs to a white person.
You have done this knowingly.
Even when your fraud has been pointed out you have carried on with your insanity.

Look at the two images above
Look at the arm
Look at how stupid you must think we all are
Are you going to carry on with your insanity?

Lol.

Mr O'Meara has just confirmed that

a) he is completely, mortifiyingly, infuriatingly unable to offer an explanation for the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman

b) the sentence in my post #711 ("Is this image-----broadcast the evening of the assassination-----the closest the American public has ever come to seeing what the original Altgens 6 showed?") overwhelms his reading comprehension abilities.

No wonder the poor guy has nothing to bring to a thread titled "Then went outside to watch P. parade" beyond irrelevant, outdated 2FLRE talking points!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 30, 2020, 05:38:11 AM
How many photo discrepancies are required before it’s reasonable to declare It’s evidence of a purposeful alteration to hide some one or some object, so as not to interfere with the WC lone nut Oswald the shooter theory?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 30, 2020, 12:12:24 PM
How many photo discrepancies are required before it’s reasonable to declare It’s evidence of a purposeful alteration to hide some one or some object, so as not to interfere with the WC lone nut Oswald the shooter theory?

One
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 30, 2020, 12:39:47 PM
Lol.

Mr O'Meara has just confirmed that

a) he is completely, mortifiyingly, infuriatingly unable to offer an explanation for the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman

b) the sentence in my post #711 ("Is this image-----broadcast the evening of the assassination-----the closest the American public has ever come to seeing what the original Altgens 6 showed?") overwhelms his reading comprehension abilities.

No wonder the poor guy has nothing to bring to a thread titled "Then went outside to watch P. parade" beyond irrelevant, outdated 2FLRE talking points!

Let's leave Mr Ford and his new theory behind.
Nobody is going to accept Oswald was actually African American.
Let's get back to the Hoax Thoery.
Those who propose there was a Hoax must show the reality of the thing they are proposing.
Who has any evidence regarding the origins of the Hoax?
Who organised the Hoax?
Who knew about the Hoax?
Who was taking part in the Hoax?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 30, 2020, 06:50:37 PM
Nobody is going to accept Oswald was actually African American.

You haven’t presented a compelling argument that that appendage is African American. Or any argument at all, really.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 30, 2020, 06:51:35 PM
Let's leave Mr Ford and his new theory behind.
Nobody is going to accept Oswald was actually African American.
Let's get back to the Hoax Thoery.
Those who propose there was a Hoax must show the reality of the thing they are proposing.
Who has any evidence regarding the origins of the Hoax?
Who organised the Hoax?
Who knew about the Hoax?
Who was taking part in the Hoax?

Further weak cope from Mr O'Meara, who really really really doesn't want us to talk about his inability to explain the Lovelady shadow in Wiegman!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 31, 2020, 02:40:40 AM
You haven’t presented a compelling argument that that appendage is African American. Or any argument at all, really.

When I say that Alan is presenting a new theory that Oswald was African American I'm clearly having a bit of fun. Don't you see that you sad, sad man.
Alan has used a 'bleached-out', overly brightened copy of Altgens to argue the appendage in question belongs to Oswald.
He also posted a 'normal' copy of Altgens which shows the same appendage belongs to a non-white person.
I find it funny that he's got himself into such a predicament so I'm making fun of it.
Don't you get it?

 ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2020, 07:29:17 AM
I’ve seen the “normal” copy of Altgens, and I still want to know how you know that “appendage” belongs to an African American.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on December 31, 2020, 07:47:10 AM
The Blob
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on December 31, 2020, 11:30:52 AM
I’ve seen the “normal” copy of Altgens, and I still want to know how you know that “appendage” belongs to an African American.

 ???

It's a joke John
Because the arm is non-white I've picked a non-white race
It's a joke
Oswald is white
You must surely see it's a joke
Suggesting Alan is putting forward a theory that Oswald is African American is a joke
That's all it was John
You need to let this go

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 31, 2020, 03:48:13 PM
???

It's a joke John
Because the arm is non-white I've picked a non-white race
It's a joke
Oswald is white
You must surely see it's a joke
Suggesting Alan is putting forward a theory that Oswald is African American is a joke
That's all it was John
You need to let this go

Your best joke, Mr O'Meara, was when you suggested that Mr Lovelady in Wiegman is "just partly in shadow". Proof that you were only kidding came when you refused repeated invitations to tell us all what Mr Lovelady is in the shadow of. Terrific stuff, sir!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2020, 06:37:06 PM
???

It's a joke John
Because the arm is non-white I've picked a non-white race
It's a joke
Oswald is white
You must surely see it's a joke
Suggesting Alan is putting forward a theory that Oswald is African American is a joke
That's all it was John
You need to let this go

Not gonna happen. Ok, then, how do you know the appendage belongs to a “non-white” person?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 31, 2020, 09:44:18 PM
reasons to reconsider PM= Oswald theory:

1. Notes by FBI agent Hosty presumably  having overheard Oswald stating to Will Fritz , being “out front with Shelly” and having gone   “outside to watch the P.Parade”

2. An apparent photographic anomaly of a vertical dark shadow on the west side of Lovelady in several Weigman film frames of the TSBD entrance

3. An apparent photographic discrepancy between an early press release version of Altgens  photo 6. In which a light tone  RIGHT forearm is raised , contrasted with the more conventional Altgen 6 photo with what appears to be the LEFT arm of Lovelady , fully covered with shirt pattern and strangely extending in FRONT of a portion of the black mans neck.

4. A Dr. Pepper bottle found on the TSBD west side entrance step at coincidentally a spot which PM would have (stepped down and descended  to a lower step so as to have part of his right (light tone) forearm photographed in a presumably original unaltered version of Altgens 6

5. The 5’3” height discrepancy of PM relative to Buell Wesley Frazier, now possibly explained by this speculative movement of PM to a lower step, momentarily stopped in Wiegman Film frames of entrance steps, but then PM moving down a few more steps in the segement of time BETWEEN last visible entrance frame of Weigman and the Z255 frame of Altgens 6 photo


 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 01, 2021, 12:31:18 AM
reasons to reconsider PM= Oswald theory:

1. Notes by FBI agent Hosty presumably  having overheard Oswald stating to Will Fritz , being “out front with Shelly” and having gone   “outside to watch the P.Parade”

Agent Hosty was present at that first interrogation, and his draft report makes perfectly clear what he heard Mr Oswald say: I went to the lunchroom on the second floor to buy a coke, then went down to the first floor, then "went outside to watch P. Parade":

(https://i.imgur.com/fZb0o5T.jpg)

This tells us not just that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone out front for the motorcade, but also that
-----------a) Mr Oswald claimed something utterly at odds with the 2FLRE story
-----------b) Mr Oswald's claims were so threatening to the official line that they had to be buried

The "out with Bill Shelly in front" is not from Agent Hosty's draft report but from Captain Fritz's non-contemporaneous notes (which, as has been deduced elsewhere, derived from Agent Bookhout's interrogation reports).

Quote
2. An apparent photographic anomaly of a vertical dark shadow on the west side of Lovelady in several Weigman film frames of the TSBD entrance

If this 'shadow' cannot be explained as a naturalistic phenomenon------and to date it has not been so explained--------then then implications are explosive: there was something in that doorway that the 'investigating' authorities desperately wanted to hide. I submit that that something must have been LHO-related, and reissue my cordial invitation to skeptics to offer a conceivable alternative motivation.

Quote
(...)

5. The 5’3” height discrepancy of PM relative to Buell Wesley Frazier, now possibly explained by this speculative movement of PM to a lower step, momentarily stopped in Wiegman Film frames of entrance steps, but then PM moving down a few more steps in the segement of time BETWEEN last visible entrance frame of Weigman and the Z255 frame of Altgens 6 photo

There is no 5'3" height discrepancy if at least one of PM's feet is one step down. Mr Andrej Stancak has modeled this quite painstakingly.

Also worth mentioning here is that Mr James Hackerott has viewed the superior copy of the Darnell frames held by the Sixth Floor Museum, and---------if his drawings are anything to go by----------saw that PM is a slim figure.

Finally, I once again sincerely believe that the left index finger of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier in this photograph is telling us the all important fact that Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's tongue dare not speak:

(https://i.imgur.com/z6ffleg.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 01, 2021, 03:41:41 AM
If PM is Sarah Stanton, a 300lb plus short fat woman that BW Frazier has stated he LOOKED AT ( and she at him simultaneously) after having heard Gloria Cavalry exclaim that JFK had been shot, then should not BWF have some memory of Sarah’s location relative to himself, that would allow him to confirm  or deny that PM is Stanton?

So far, BFW has NOT been able ( or is purposely unwilling?) to ID the PM figure.

Has Mr. Ford located exactly where Sarah Stanton is at the front entrance?




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on January 01, 2021, 04:03:58 AM

Also worth mentioning here is that Mr James Hackerott has viewed the superior copy of the Darnell frames held by the Sixth Floor Museum, and---------if his drawings are anything to go by----------saw that PM is a slim figure.

At my last visit to Dallas (11 months ago) I was extremely fortunate to be allowed to make a single tracing of the Darnell doorway. I was pressed for time and the tracing was made in a hurry. This scan of the trace is presented for-what-it's-worth, but should be a better outline of Prayer Person compared to my earlier free-hand sketches.

(https://i.imgur.com/KakvLm0.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/tCUZDmz.png)

A Safe and Happy New Year to All
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 01, 2021, 08:23:26 AM
If PM is Sarah Stanton, a 300lb plus short fat woman that BW Frazier has stated he LOOKED AT ( and she at him simultaneously) after having heard Gloria Cavalry exclaim that JFK had been shot, then should not BWF have some memory of Sarah’s location relative to himself, that would allow him to confirm  or deny that PM is Stanton?

So far, BFW has NOT been able ( or is purposely unwilling?) to ID the PM figure.

Ms Stanton was to Mr Frazier's left. Mr Frazier has had many opportunities to identify PM as Ms Stanton------------and has never done so. He knows it's not her.

Quote
Has Mr. Ford located exactly where Sarah Stanton is at the front entrance?

On the basis that Mr Lovelady pointed out to Mr Dom Bonafede in Altgens 6 a lady who worked on the second floor, I believe by simple elimination that this has to be Ms Stanton:

(https://i.imgur.com/fgIvzfb.jpg)

The photograph below shows that Ms Stanton had very thick upper arms but not very thick forearms-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/dWJJxRu.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 01, 2021, 08:26:37 AM
At my last visit to Dallas (11 months ago) I was extremely fortunate to be allowed to make a single tracing of the Darnell doorway. I was pressed for time and the tracing was made in a hurry. This scan of the trace is presented for-what-it's-worth, but should be a better outline of Prayer Person compared to my earlier free-hand sketches.

(https://i.imgur.com/KakvLm0.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/tCUZDmz.png)

A Safe and Happy New Year to All

Excellent, Mr Hackerott, thank you!

I'm intrigued by your note at the foot of the tracing. Does it read "PP face not reproduced frame to frame Darnell"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 01, 2021, 12:19:17 PM
Not gonna happen. Ok, then, how do you know the appendage belongs to a “non-white” person?

 ???

Because of the colour of it.

You are the joke

Can't you discern between black and white people in Altgens 6?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 01, 2021, 06:32:41 PM
???

Because of the colour of it.

You are the joke

Can't you discern between black and white people in Altgens 6?

So you rule out the idea that the arm belongs to Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.imgur.com/6WkQtKJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on January 01, 2021, 07:19:50 PM
Excellent, Mr Hackerott, thank you!

I'm intrigued by your note at the foot of the tracing. Does it read "PP face not reproduced frame to frame Darnell"?
No, the word is tie – the thin vertical stripe (e.g. tie, necklace, zipper etc.) below the chin. I think before this visit to the SFM I indicated the line was present in multiple frames. I plan to revisit this observation if I can someday have another chance. The museum is now open for some business, but the Reading Room was still closed at the end of November.

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 01, 2021, 08:43:17 PM
Now I’ve got a suspicion that the original Althens 6 photo image of the forearm was clearly BEHiND the neck of the black man. This would be a very definite indication that someone holding up their arm was just a few steps up behind the black man.

So perhapsThe 1st idea to modify the image was to make the arm appear to belong to the black man

They added a portion of light gray of equal value approx to the tone  of the arm  creating an illusion of a roiled up portion of shirt connecting the arm to the black man.

Then they realized from other frames of Weigman that the black mans light gray shirt sleeves were NOT rolled up and that someone would eventually notice this discrepancy and question why the mans arm was not as dark as his face.

So then they must have decide led to cover up 1st alteration  by a 2nd alteration of adding more of Loveladys shirt texture pattern over this light tone arm, and hope that it the public would accept the arm now belonging to Lovelady.

However, for whatever reason, the now covered  arm w/ texture pattern = to Lovelady  shirt did NOT correct the 1st alteration portion that seems to attach the arm to the black man, thus the Lovelady’s left sleeved arm
STILL had the anomaly of extending IN FRONT of the black guys neck.

Why they could not fix this perhaps was due to more complication in adjusting the image, so they left it as good enough“ calculating that some expert could be found to offer a seemingly plausible explanation for the remaining anomaly
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 02, 2021, 12:09:40 AM
???

Because of the colour of it.

You are the joke

Can't you discern between black and white people in Altgens 6?

It’s a continual source of amazement to me how you can squint at blurry photos and express exactly what is depicted with such certainty. Are you Tommy Graves in drag?

So this appendage is bare skin — is that what you’re claiming? And exactly what pixel values is your threshold before it becomes “non-white”?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 02, 2021, 04:47:31 PM
No, the word is tie – the thin vertical stripe (e.g. tie, necklace, zipper etc.) below the chin. I think before this visit to the SFM I indicated the line was present in multiple frames. I plan to revisit this observation if I can someday have another chance. The museum is now open for some business, but the Reading Room was still closed at the end of November.

Ah, I see. Thank you!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 02, 2021, 04:54:32 PM
Now I’ve got a suspicion that the original Althens 6 photo image of the forearm was clearly BEHiND the neck of the black man. This would be a very definite indication that someone holding up their arm was just a few steps up behind the black man.

So perhapsThe 1st idea to modify the image was to make the arm appear to belong to the black man

They added a portion of light gray of equal value approx to the tone  of the arm  creating an illusion of a roiled up portion of shirt connecting the arm to the black man.

Then they realized from other frames of Weigman that the black mans light gray shirt sleeves were NOT rolled up and that someone would eventually notice this discrepancy and question why the mans arm was not as dark as his face.

So then they must have decide led to cover up 1st alteration  by a 2nd alteration of adding more of Loveladys shirt texture pattern over this light tone arm, and hope that it the public would accept the arm now belonging to Lovelady.

However, for whatever reason, the now covered  arm w/ texture pattern = to Lovelady  shirt did NOT correct the 1st alteration portion that seems to attach the arm to the black man, thus the Lovelady’s left sleeved arm
STILL had the anomaly of extending IN FRONT of the black guys neck.

Why they could not fix this perhaps was due to more complication in adjusting the image, so they left it as good enough“ calculating that some expert could be found to offer a seemingly plausible explanation for the remaining anomaly

(https://i.imgur.com/cwI3McN.jpg) ----vs----(https://i.imgur.com/Ez8BBFp.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Tonkovich on January 02, 2021, 07:31:21 PM
 It's Lovelady. Oswald was in the lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 02, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
It's Lovelady.

Yep.

Quote
Oswald was in the lunchroom.

Yep, but now he's on the steps watching the P. Parade.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 04, 2021, 02:37:31 AM
Enough of this fantasy  BS:

Who created the second floor lunchroom encounter hoax and who was in on it?
Simple questions
let's have some simple answers
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 04, 2021, 06:09:10 PM
Enough of this fantasy  BS:

Who created the second floor lunchroom encounter hoax and who was in on it?
Simple questions
let's have some simple answers

Still can't explain the shadow, eh Mr O'Meara? Oh dear oh dear, how embarrassing for you!

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 04, 2021, 09:28:26 PM
"I can't say for sure that I saw Lee Harvey Oswald"

--Mr Roy Edward Lewis (JFK conference Dallas, 2016) when asked whom he saw out on those steps at the time of the assassination.

(https://i.imgur.com/MFtXBl1.jpg)



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 04, 2021, 09:36:46 PM
Slightly off-topic, but in the same conference appearance Mr Lewis is quite emphatic that Mr Frazier drove Mr Oswald home every working day.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 04, 2021, 10:31:02 PM
Mr Lewis, in this same conference appearance, gets into real knots trying to give account of his exact whereabouts at the time the shots rang out.

He tells the audience that he had just came out through the glass door and was on the landing when he heard the shots.

But then he lets Mr Larry Rivera (the moderator) assure him and the audience that he is in fact the black man whose face we see in profile in the (post-Cronkite!) Altgens photograph, i.e. standing way down on the lowest step.

His March '64 FBI interview report is tantalizingly ambiguous on this issue...............

I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F . Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade

And here's what Mr Lewis told Mr Larry Sneed-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/LdTmll9.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 05, 2021, 01:40:26 AM
Suggestions for what the white object is in PM’s hands:

1. White coffee cup
2. White styrofoam cup
3. Camera
4. 1963 Dr.Pepper bottle w/ white logo
5. Cigarette lighter flame

Mr. Ford has presented an image of a forearm and hand upraised and presumed to be not the forearm of Lewis (black man at lower west wall corner of the TSBD entrance steps), nor the forearm belonging to Lovelady.

Mr. Ford has outlined also some object that he thinks he sees in the upraised hand?

If there is a shape, can it be analyzed by some computer image program to determine which of the 5 hypothetical objects listed above is the most probable?

If coffee cup or styrofoam cup, the quantity of liquid would be minimal, and thus  possibly consumed completely BEFORE PM was captured in Weigman film

If a camera, then one must ask what would be the reason for PM to hold up the camera ( as though photographing the side of the TSBD) in the Altgens photo. Also, would not the face of PM be visible if holding up the camera to his eye?

If a cigarette lighter aflame in the hand of PM in Weigman film then the small object is not likely to be visible in the hand when PM moves and raises the arm in Alrhens photo

The Dr. Pepper bottle, therefore, is my pick because

A. The bottle upraised, having a long neck, may explain face of PM obscured by west corner wall , even thought bottle shape would be visible in the hand

B. Quantity of liquid would be consumed over a longer periodic time  with raising hand up multiple times

C. Coincidental finding of a Dr. Pepper
Bottle on the steps next to the West wall of the TSBD where PM is seen in the Weigman film, and where he would have stepped down to lower step in an increment of time between last Weigman frame of entrance steps and the Altgens photo 6.

D. The shape of the bottle would be more visible and be horizontal if upraised to take a drink as is the object that Mr. Ford has outlined (although its indeterminate), in the now presumed upraised hand of PM before that image was altered by adding texture and pattern of Lovelady shirt to obscure the arm and make it appear to be Loveladys arm.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 05, 2021, 02:03:08 PM
Suggestions for what the white object is in PM’s hands:

1. White coffee cup
2. White styrofoam cup
3. Camera
4. 1963 Dr.Pepper bottle w/ white logo
5. Cigarette lighter flame

Mr. Ford has presented an image of a forearm and hand upraised and presumed to be not the forearm of Lewis (black man at lower west wall corner of the TSBD entrance steps), nor the forearm belonging to Lovelady.

Mr. Ford has outlined also some object that he thinks he sees in the upraised hand?

If there is a shape, can it be analyzed by some computer image program to determine which of the 5 hypothetical objects listed above is the most probable?

If coffee cup or styrofoam cup, the quantity of liquid would be minimal, and thus  possibly consumed completely BEFORE PM was captured in Weigman film

If a camera, then one must ask what would be the reason for PM to hold up the camera ( as though photographing the side of the TSBD) in the Altgens photo. Also, would not the face of PM be visible if holding up the camera to his eye?

If a cigarette lighter aflame in the hand of PM in Weigman film then the small object is not likely to be visible in the hand when PM moves and raises the arm in Alrhens photo

The Dr. Pepper bottle, therefore, is my pick because

A. The bottle upraised, having a long neck, may explain face of PM obscured by west corner wall , even thought bottle shape would be visible in the hand

B. Quantity of liquid would be consumed over a longer periodic time  with raising hand up multiple times

C. Coincidental finding of a Dr. Pepper
Bottle on the steps next to the West wall of the TSBD where PM is seen in the Weigman film, and where he would have stepped down to lower step in an increment of time between last Weigman frame of entrance steps and the Altgens photo 6.

D. The shape of the bottle would be more visible and be horizontal if upraised to take a drink as is the object that Mr. Ford has outlined (although its indeterminate), in the now presumed upraised hand of PM before that image was altered by adding texture and pattern of Lovelady shirt to obscure the arm and make it appear to be Loveladys arm.

It looks like a coke bottle.

(https://i.imgur.com/CsX4avj.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/mGGd8Ds.gif)

The reason it looks like a coke bottle is probably that it is one.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 05, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
Still can't explain the shadow, eh Mr O'Meara? Oh dear oh dear, how embarrassing for you!

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

Friends, while we await Mr O'Meara's brilliant analysis of the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman, let's remind ourselves of the... interesting thing that happens to the car aerial as it passes over said shadow-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/QXRptz0.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 05, 2021, 11:09:25 PM
It looks like a coke bottle.

(https://i.imgur.com/CsX4avj.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/mGGd8Ds.gif)

The reason it looks like a coke bottle is probably that it is one.

How can you tell it's coke?
Where's your coke bottle in this pic?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxxVbGF2/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Getting back to something serious, I believe it was who accused Nat Pinkston of having something to do with creating the 2FLRE Hoax.
Was this just more of your made-up  BS:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 05, 2021, 11:19:28 PM
How can you tell it's coke?
Where's your coke bottle in this pic?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxxVbGF2/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Getting back to something serious, I believe it was who accused Nat Pinkston of having something to do with creating the 2FLRE Hoax.
Was this just more of your made-up  BS:

Much as poor Mr O'Meara wants to keep partying like it's 2010, I'm afraid he needs another friendly reminder that his claim that Mr Lovelady is in "partial shadow" here still needs splainin'.....

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

Over to you, Mr O'Meara!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 05, 2021, 11:37:42 PM
Much as poor Mr O'Meara wants to keep partying like it's 2010, I'm afraid he needs another friendly reminder that his claim that Mr Lovelady is in "partial shadow" here still needs splainin'.....

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

Over to you, Mr O'Meara!  :D

Where's the coke bottle Alan and why do you need the concept of 'shadows' 'splained to you
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 05, 2021, 11:39:21 PM
Where's the coke bottle Alan and why do you need the concept of 'shadows' 'splained to you

So what physical entity, in your view, is casting the shadow that covers nearly half of Mr Lovelady's body?

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 06, 2021, 12:38:20 AM
There is slight problem with the speculative notion of PM having moved down a few steps in the brief interlude between Wiegman films last frame of entrance and Altgens photo capture.

The problem is that in Couch film sequence of the entrance which is AFTER Altgens photo, PM appears to be in the SAME position in the corner as he was in Weigman film.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 06, 2021, 07:01:05 PM
There is slight problem with the speculative notion of PM having moved down a few steps in the brief interlude between Wiegman films last frame of entrance and Altgens photo capture.

The problem is that in Couch film sequence of the entrance which is AFTER Altgens photo, PM appears to be in the SAME position in the corner as he was in Weigman film.

As I understand it, Mr Mason, Wiegman starts filming over a second after the Altgens photograph is taken. (I am following Mr Mark Tyler's calculations here.)

The figure with the (as I believe) coke bottle in hand need only step back/up one step to be in the PM position in Wiegman.

PM shows up in the Darnell film btw, not the Couch film.

So the chronology is: 1. Altgens 2. Wiegman 3. Darnell
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 06, 2021, 09:49:22 PM
Agent Hosty was present at that first interrogation, and his draft report makes perfectly clear what he heard Mr Oswald say: I went to the lunchroom on the second floor to buy a coke, then went down to the first floor, then "went outside to watch P. Parade":

(https://i.imgur.com/fZb0o5T.jpg)

This tells us not just that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone out front for the motorcade, but also that
-----------a) Mr Oswald claimed something utterly at odds with the 2FLRE story
-----------b) Mr Oswald's claims were so threatening to the official line that they had to be buried

The "out with Bill Shelly in front" is not from Agent Hosty's draft report but from Captain Fritz's non-contemporaneous notes (which, as has been deduced elsewhere, derived from Agent Bookhout's interrogation reports).

If this 'shadow' cannot be explained as a naturalistic phenomenon------and to date it has not been so explained--------then then implications are explosive: there was something in that doorway that the 'investigating' authorities desperately wanted to hide. I submit that that something must have been LHO-related, and reissue my cordial invitation to skeptics to offer a conceivable alternative motivation.

There is no 5'3" height discrepancy if at least one of PM's feet is one step down. Mr Andrej Stancak has modeled this quite painstakingly.

Also worth mentioning here is that Mr James Hackerott has viewed the superior copy of the Darnell frames held by the Sixth Floor Museum, and---------if his drawings are anything to go by----------saw that PM is a slim figure.

Finally, I once again sincerely believe that the left index finger of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier in this photograph is telling us the all important fact that Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's tongue dare not speak:

(https://i.imgur.com/z6ffleg.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Agent Hosty was present at that first interrogation, and his draft report makes perfectly clear what he heard Mr Oswald say: I went to the lunchroom on the second floor to buy a coke, then went down to the first floor, then "went outside to watch P. Parade":

(https://i.imgur.com/z6ffleg.jpg)

These notes were obviously written AFTER Hosty sat in on the first interrogation of Lee Oswald....The original hand scribbled notes of Hosty make no mention of Lee saying that he bought a coke and then went downstairs and ate his lunch before going out front to watch the P. parade.   The Coke issue first surfaced when Fritz confronted Lee with Officer Baker's report that he had encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom about 90 seconds AFTER the shots were fired.  According to Hosty's notes ( see above)  After buying the coke, Lee went downstairs and ate his lunch before going outside to watch the P. Parade.  There was no parade to watch five minutes after Baker encountered Lee In the second floor lunchroom.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 07, 2021, 01:22:15 AM
These notes were obviously written AFTER Hosty sat in on the first interrogation of Lee Oswald....The original hand scribbled notes of Hosty make no mention of Lee saying that he bought a coke and then went downstairs and ate his lunch before going out front to watch the P. parade.

That's merely because we don't have the complete set of contemporaneous notes------Agent Hosty only allowed one page to be made public, a page that doesn't touch on Mr Oswald's whereabouts at and around the time of the assassination.

Quote
The Coke issue first surfaced when Fritz confronted Lee with Officer Baker's report that he had encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom about 90 seconds AFTER the shots were fired.

Officer Baker gave no such report on 11/22/63.

Quote
According to Hosty's notes ( see above)  After buying the coke, Lee went downstairs and ate his lunch before going outside to watch the P. Parade.  There was no parade to watch five minutes after Baker encountered Lee In the second floor lunchroom.

You're on the brink of an actual insight here, Mr Cakebread, but I won't hold my breath...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 07, 2021, 02:19:37 AM
That's merely because we don't have the complete set of contemporaneous notes------Agent Hosty only allowed one page to be made public, a page that doesn't touch on Mr Oswald's whereabouts at and around the time of the assassination.

Officer Baker gave no such report on 11/22/63.

You're on the brink of an actual insight here, Mr Cakebread, but I won't hold my breath...

Here ya go Mr Ford....YOU posted the notes.....Notice that Hosty wrote..." On 11/22 at 3:15 pm LHO was interviewed by capt. W. Fritz, JWB & JPH .   Capt. Fritz advised O of his rights etc:"

Hosty also writes about the purchase of the coke.....  That information didn't surface until officer Baker returned to DPD headquarters much later that afternoon....    Hosty is lying about this info being discussed in the 3:15 interrogation.

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 07, 2021, 08:04:14 AM
Here ya go Mr Ford....YOU posted the notes.....Notice that Hosty wrote..." On 11/22 at 3:15 pm LHO was interviewed by capt. W. Fritz, JWB & JPH .   Capt. Fritz advised O of his rights etc:"

These are the contemporaneous notes I was talking about, Mr Cakebread----------

(https://i.imgur.com/MzKKNJZ.jpg)

Quote
Hosty also writes about the purchase of the coke.....  That information didn't surface until officer Baker returned to DPD headquarters much later that afternoon....    Hosty is lying about this info being discussed in the 3:15 interrogation.

Heavens, talk about tortured logic!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 07, 2021, 04:18:09 PM
These are the contemporaneous notes I was talking about, Mr Cakebread----------

(https://i.imgur.com/MzKKNJZ.jpg)

Heavens, talk about tortured logic!

These are the contemporaneous notes I was talking about, Mr Cakebread----------

(https://i.imgur.com/MzKKNJZ.jpg)

Yes, I know, Mr Ford....And you'll notice that Hosty says NOTHING about a coke in those notes which he scribbled DURING the initial interrogation session which started at about 3:15 pm that afternoon.  But in the other notes he says that Lee said that he went to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke and then he went down to the first floor and ate his lunch before going out to watch the P. parade ....     

We know that the coke issue surfaced later that afternoon AFTER officer Baker returned to headquarters and he told Fritz that he had encountered Lee in the second floor lunch room just seconds after the shots were fired and he was calmly drinking a coke.   Whether Lee was actually drinking the coke or merely had it in his hands isn't important....( Baker or Fritz, probably embroidered that tidbit about Lee "calmly drinking a coke" to make Lee appear to be a cold unemotional killer) ...The point is Hosty couldn't have wrote about the coke until after 5:00pm ....  And the salient point is:.....If Lee took the coke downstairs to consume with his lunch BEFORE going outside then there was NO DAMNED P. PARADE for Lee to Watch.....because the parade had long since broken up and disbursed..
(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 07, 2021, 07:03:27 PM
These are the contemporaneous notes I was talking about, Mr Cakebread----------

(https://i.imgur.com/MzKKNJZ.jpg)

Yes, I know, Mr Ford....And you'll notice that Hosty says NOTHING about a coke in those notes which he scribbled DURING the initial interrogation session which started at about 3:15 pm that afternoon.  But in the other notes he says that Lee said that he went to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke and then he went down to the first floor and ate his lunch before going out to watch the P. parade ....     

We know that the coke issue surfaced later that afternoon AFTER officer Baker returned to headquarters and he told Fritz that he had encountered Lee in the second floor lunch room just seconds after the shots were fired and he was calmly drinking a coke.   Whether Lee was actually drinking the coke or merely had it in his hands isn't important....( Baker or Fritz, probably embroidered that tidbit about Lee "calmly drinking a coke" to make Lee appear to be a cold unemotional killer) ...The point is Hosty couldn't have wrote about the coke until after 5:00pm ....  And the salient point is:.....If Lee took the coke downstairs to consume with his lunch BEFORE going outside then there was NO DAMNED P. PARADE for Lee to Watch.....because the parade had long since broken up and disbursed..
(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)


These notes contain a wealth of information .....  Anybody interested in discussing them one item at a time?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 07, 2021, 09:06:11 PM
Yes, I know, Mr Ford....And you'll notice that Hosty says NOTHING about a coke in those notes which he scribbled DURING the initial interrogation session which started at about 3:15 pm that afternoon.  But in the other notes he says that Lee said that he went to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke and then he went down to the first floor and ate his lunch before going out to watch the P. parade ....

Exactly----the draft report which he wrote out by hand on the back of a blank DPD affidavit sheet (and we only have one sheet here, not the full document) contained high-priority information, including naturally Mr Oswald's bombshell alibi claim about visiting the second floor lunchroom before the P. Parade, then going down to one, then going out to watch the P. Parade. This draft report never made it into the official record. Instead, we get a) a fudged account of Mr Oswald's words in the Bookhout/Hosty joint report, then b) a completely distorted version of Mr Oswald's true claim in the Bookhout-only report.

Quote
We know that the coke issue surfaced later that afternoon AFTER officer Baker returned to headquarters and he told Fritz that he had encountered Lee in the second floor lunch room just seconds after the shots were fired and he was calmly drinking a coke.

No. We know only that
a) Officer Baker gave an affidavit that early afternoon in which he recalled encountering a man "walking away from the stairway" on the "third or fourth floor" (no lunchroom incident)
b) DPD were telling press that day that Mr Oswald was challenged by an officer at the front entrance to the building just after the shooting

Quote
Whether Lee was actually drinking the coke or merely had it in his hands isn't important....( Baker or Fritz, probably embroidered that tidbit about Lee "calmly drinking a coke" to make Lee appear to be a cold unemotional killer) ...The point is Hosty couldn't have wrote about the coke until after 5:00pm ....

Of course he could have---because he had heard Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz all about it in that first interrogation (the only interrogation which Agent Hosty attended).

Quote
And the salient point is:.....If Lee took the coke downstairs to consume with his lunch BEFORE going outside then there was NO DAMNED P. PARADE for Lee to Watch.....because the parade had long since broken up and disbursed..

Exactly----that's why Mr Oswald's actual claim (as recorded in Agent Hosty's draft report) had to be twisted into the absurd claim we find in the Bookhout-Hosty joint report. They buried the man's alibi claim---------and his alibi.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 07, 2021, 09:31:16 PM
Friends, here is how Officer Baker in his 11/22/63 affidavit described the man he encountered "walking away from the stairway" on "the third or fourth floor":

========> "The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket"

And here is what we learn in a 9 Jan '64 FBI internal memo about the true source of the suspect description put out by DPD shortly after the shooting:

========> "An unidentified individual told Inspector SAWYER that he had seen an individual run from the TSBD building shortly after the shooting of President KENNEDY and that this individual was an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, 5'10", 165 pounds, carrying what looked to be a 30:30 or some type of Winchester rifle."

Hands up who thinks the uncanny similarity between the two descriptions is a coincidence!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 12:18:56 AM
Friends, here is how Officer Baker in his 11/22/63 affidavit described the man he encountered "walking away from the stairway" on "the third or fourth floor":

========> "The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket"

And here is what we learn in a 9 Jan '64 FBI internal memo about the true source of the suspect description put out by DPD shortly after the shooting:

========> "An unidentified individual told Inspector SAWYER that he had seen an individual run from the TSBD building shortly after the shooting of President KENNEDY and that this individual was an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, 5'10", 165 pounds, carrying what looked to be a 30:30 or some type of Winchester rifle."

Hands up who thinks the uncanny similarity between the two descriptions is a coincidence!

Mr Ford...Can we focus on the Hosty notes?   You seem to think that the lunchroom meeting between Lee Oswald and Officer Baker never happened...  Is that your stance?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 12:45:14 AM
Mr Ford...Can we focus on the Hosty notes?   You seem to think that the lunchroom meeting between Lee Oswald and Officer Baker never happened...  Is that your stance?

Of course, Mr Cakebread. Sensible researchers left the lunchroom fiction behind years ago.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 12:49:12 AM
Of course, Mr Cakebread. Sensible researchers left the lunchroom fiction behind years ago.

On what do you base that idea?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 01:03:09 AM
On what do you base that idea?

Why, the evidence.

For example! Let's take the current topic: the revelation in Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report that Mr Oswald claimed to have visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, gone down to one and then gone "outside to watch P. Parade".

Do you accept this as plain-as-day evidence that Mr Oswald did not----------contrary to what was later claimed----------confirm any post-assassination lunchroom encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 01:45:56 AM
Why, the evidence.

For example! Let's take the current topic: the revelation in Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report that Mr Oswald claimed to have visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, gone down to one and then gone "outside to watch P. Parade".

Do you accept this as plain-as-day evidence that Mr Oswald did not----------contrary to what was later claimed----------confirm any post-assassination lunchroom encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly?

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

 Mr Oswald claimed to have visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, gone down to one and then gone "outside to watch P. Parade".

WHERE in Hosty's notes, does it sat that ?

Are you suggesting that Lee went to lunch at 12:00 O'clock?   Can you provide proof that Lee went to the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the P. parade arrived in Dealey plaza.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 08, 2021, 02:46:33 AM
Need someone like Bill Brown, to visit the TSBD steps on November 22/2021 to do a couple of experiments to determine

A. If Lovelady shadow can be replicated in a motion film of similar 63 vintage camera
B. If Lovelady missing left shoulder/ extended left arm anomaly in Altgens photo can be replicated
C. Which type bottle, 1963 coke or 1963 Dr. Pepper bottle , held in hand as PM , while in the shadow, can cause a white splotch phenomenon
D. Have a person of 5’9” height stand at location between Lewis and Lovelady ( as in Altgens photo) with hand upraised with right hand, and replicate the forearm anomaly as seen in the fuzzy version of Altgens photo that Mr. Ford has recently discovered and posted several times this thread.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 08, 2021, 03:07:50 AM
Question to Mr.Ford about the newly proposed location of Sarah Stanton at the fluffy white shirt person with hand upraised.

Is this person on the opposite (east side of the center hand rail as Billy Lovelady?

Is this persons hair light tone or dark?



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 10:37:28 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

 Mr Oswald claimed to have visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, gone down to one and then gone "outside to watch P. Parade".

WHERE in Hosty's notes, does it sat that ?

Are you trying to be cute, Mr Cakebread? As already stated multiple times, this crystal clear report of what Mr Oswald claimed in that first interrogation is in Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report. Are you suggesting Agent Hosty hallucinated or fabricated this claim?

Quote
Are you suggesting that Lee went to lunch at 12:00 O'clock?   Can you provide proof that Lee went to the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the P. parade arrived in Dealey plaza.

You're still missing the point: We now have proof that Mr Oswald himself claimed to have gone to the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the parade. Your attempts to explain away this bombshell information contained in Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report are getting you nowhere.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 10:38:39 AM
Question to Mr.Ford about the newly proposed location of Sarah Stanton at the fluffy white shirt person with hand upraised.

Is this person on the opposite (east side of the center hand rail as Billy Lovelady?

East side, yes.

Quote
Is this persons hair light tone or dark?

We can't tell, their hair is in shadow.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 04:55:57 PM
Are you trying to be cute, Mr Cakebread? As already stated multiple times, this crystal clear report of what Mr Oswald claimed in that first interrogation is in Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report. Are you suggesting Agent Hosty hallucinated or fabricated this claim?

You're still missing the point: We now have proof that Mr Oswald himself claimed to have gone to the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the parade. Your attempts to explain away this bombshell information contained in Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report are getting you nowhere.

 We now have proof that Mr Oswald himself claimed to have gone to the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the parade.

Isn't it obvious to you that the second set of notes are NOT contemporaneous ...Hosty didn't jot those notes down during the initial interrogation which stated at about 3:15 pm that afternoon....Open your eyes and LOOK ...

The second set of notes repeats information that had already been recorded in the first set of notes.  The second set of notes says:  "On 11/22 at 3:15 pm LHO was interviewed by Capt W Fritz JWB  & JPH.  Capt Fritz advised O of his rights etc;"

This is repeating the information that he (Hosty)had already recorded at the top of the note which he recorded while sitting in on the first interrogation of Lee Oswald.   Obviously there was no need to record that information a second time if the notes were all recorded at the same time...Thus it should be clear that Hosty recorded the second set of notes at a later time...And that was AFTER Baker had reported that He had encountered Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom AFTER the shots were fired.

If this isn't clear to you there is no point in discussing this issue any further.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 08:13:30 PM
We now have proof that Mr Oswald himself claimed to have gone to the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the parade.

Isn't it obvious to you that the second set of notes re NOT contemporaneous ...Hosty didn't jot those notes down during the initial interrogation which stated at about 3:15 pm that afternoon....Open your eyes and LOOK ...

The second set of notes repeats information that had already been recorded in the first set of notes.  The second set of notes says:  "On 11/22 at 3:15 pm LHO was interviewed by Capt W Fritz JWB  & JPH.  Capt Fritz advised O of his rights etc;"

This is repeating the information that he (Hosty)had already recorded at the top of the note which he recorded while sitting in on the first interrogation of Lee Oswald.   Obviously there was no need to record that information a second time if the notes were all recorded at the same time...Thus it should be clear that Hosty recorded the second set of notes at a later time...And that was AFTER Baker had reported that He had encountered Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom AFTER the shots were fired.

If this isn't clear to you there is no point in discussing this issue any further.

Huh? Of course the draft interrogation report was written after that first interrogation-------it's a report, for goodness' sake ::)

As for Agent Hosty's attending a follow-up interrogation in which he hears what Mr Oswald has to say about a Coke that Officer Baker has been reporting, the only world in which any of that happened is the world of your lunchroom-fiction-addled imagination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 09:14:53 PM
Huh? Of course the draft interrogation report was written after that first interrogation-------it's a report, for goodness' sake ::)

As for Agent Hosty's attending a follow-up interrogation in which he hears what Mr Oswald has to say about a Coke that Officer Baker has been reporting, the only world in which any of that happened is the world of your lunchroom-fiction-addled imagination.

Mr Ford It's NOT my imagination....Perhaps you should read the reports of Fritz, Hosty and Bookhout in appendix XI of the WR.

Capt Fritz wrote....." Mr Truly had told me that one of the police officers had stopped his man immediately after the shooting somewhere near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said that he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in."   "I asked him what part of the building he was in when the president was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch at about that time on the first floor."

NOTE----  No detective would ask a question that would provide information to a suspect.....Fritz didn't ask Lee where he was when the president was shot....He asked lee, where he was at the time the Parade passed by the TSBD...

FBI Bookhout wrote:  "Oswald stated that on November 22 at the time of the search ( referring to Baker's search) of the Texas School Book Depository by Dallas police officers he was on the second floor of said building having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked if he worked there.Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took his coke down to the first floor and stood around and had his lunch in the employee's lunch room. He there after went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes."

FBI Hosty wrote:....  He claimed that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom. however he went to the second floor lunchroom where the Coca Cola machine was located, and obtained a Coca Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed that he was on the first floor at the time President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

Page 622....Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten his lunch  in the lunchroom at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated that one of the employees was called Junior  (  JuniorJarmen.) and the other was a short individual ( Harold "shorty" Norman) .whose name he could not recall.

It is a fact that Jarman and Norman walked by the windows of the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:25.....And Lee Oswald saw them as he sat there in the Domino Room eating his lunch.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 09:38:59 PM
Mr Ford It's NOT my imagination....Perhaps you should read the reports of Fritz, Hosty and Bookhout in appendix XI of the WR.

Capt Fritz wrote....." Mr Truly had told me that one of the police officers had stopped his man immediately after the shooting somewhere near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said that he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in."   "I asked him what part of the building he was in when the president was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch at about that time on the first floor."

NOTE----  No detective would ask a question that would provide information to a suspect.....Fritz didn't ask Lee where he was when the president was shot....He asked lee, where he was at the time the Parade passed by the TSBD...

FBI Bookhout wrote:  "Oswald stated that on November 22 at the time of the search ( referring to Baker's search) of the Texas School Book Depository by Dallas police officers he was on the second floor of said building having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked if he worked there.Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took his coke down to the first floor and stood around and had his lunch in the employee's lunch room. He there after went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes."

Why do you skip over the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

“OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola ‘for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to’ be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed by his building.

The eyebrows of alert researchers had long been raised by the rather bizarre vagueness of that last bit: "on the first floor". Where on the first floor?? Thankfully, the mystery was lifted when an EVEN EARLIER report was finally unearthed in 2019: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he bought the Coke on two, then came downstairs for lunch, and then "went outside to watch P. Parade". The part of the first floor that Mr Oswald must have specified was: the front entrance.

This document of course destroys at a stroke the lie that Mr Oswald ever confirmed a post-assassination lunchroom encounter with an officer and Mr Truly. In fact he told them something that was completely at odds with the lunchroom encounter story. And so......... they buried it.

Comparing the evolving story told from one interrogation report to the next, in short, allows us to watch a key part of the cover-up against Mr Oswald take shape. If you weren't so besotted with the long-discredited lunchroom-encounter fiction, you would have no trouble recognizing the explosive import of the Hosty draft interrogation report that came to light in 2019-------and you wouldn't be taking recourse to ludicrously strained LNer-style argumentation in a desperate effort to explain its contents away.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 10:13:59 PM
Why do you skip over the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

“OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola ‘for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to’ be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed by his building.

The eyebrows of alert researchers had long been raised by the rather bizarre vagueness of that last bit: "on the first floor". Where on the first floor?? Thankfully, the mystery was lifted when an EVEN EARLIER report was finally unearthed in 2019: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he bought the Coke on two, then came downstairs for lunch, and then "went outside to watch P. Parade". The part of the first floor that Mr Oswald must have specified was: the front entrance.

This document of course destroys at a stroke the lie that Mr Oswald ever confirmed a post-assassination lunchroom encounter with an officer and Mr Truly. In fact he told them something that was completely at odds with the lunchroom encounter story. And so......... they buried it.

Comparing the evolving story told from one interrogation report to the next, in short, allows us to watch a key part of the cover-up against Mr Oswald take shape. If you weren't so besotted with the long-discredited lunchroom-encounter fiction, you would have no trouble recognizing the explosive import of the Hosty draft interrogation report that came to light in 2019-------and you wouldn't be taking recourse to ludicrously strained LNer-style argumentation in a desperate effort to explain its contents away.

Why do you skip over the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

I didn't skip over the joint report....I did omit the first part that says that Lee went to lunch at noon....We know that the Domino room was full of employees at noon and nobody reported seeing Lee there at that time.... And Lee himself said that he was eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom when Junior Jarman and Harold Norman passed by as they were on their way to the fifth floor at about 12:25.  So Lee DID NOT go to lunch at 12:00 o'clock.

You are stuck on some fantasy tale that Baker and Truly's encounter in the second floor lunchroom never happened ...Which forces you to ignore the statements of Lee Oswald...Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, James Hosty, James Bookhout Captain Fritz, Junior Jarman, Harold Norman, and Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley .... Thomas Kelley's report doesn't shed a lot of light on the matter....BUT.... Kelley did report that Lee said something about seeing a two Negro employees who he recognized as employees and one of them was called "Junior", and the other  was a little short statured Negro boy.     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 10:23:43 PM
Why do you skip over the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

I didn't skip over the joint report....I did omit the first part that says that lee went to lunch at noon....We know that the Domino room was full of employees at noon and nobody reported seeing Lee there at that time.... And lee himself said that he was eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom when Junior jarman and harold Norman passed by as they were on their way to the fifth floor at about 12:25.  So Lee DID NOT go to lunch at 12:00 o'clock.

You are stuck on some fantasy tale that Baker and Truly's encounter in the second floor lunchroom never happened ...Which forces you to ignore the statements of Lee Oswald...Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, James Hosty, James bookhout Captain Fritz, Junior Jarman, Harold Norman, and Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley .... Thomas Kelley's report doesn't shed a lot of light on the matter....BUT.... Kelley did report that Lee said something about seeing a two Negro employees who he recognized as employees and one of them was called "Junior", and the other  was a little short statured Negro boy.     

Lord grant me patience with this one!

1. You did omit the joint report, skipping straight to the Bookhout-only report.

2. Mr Oswald, as we now know from the earliest interrogation report, claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" AFTER visiting the second floor lunchroom. You are falling for the scam pulled by those who buried his claim because they understood how dangerous it was to the narrative they were constructing against him.

3. Mr Oswald saw Messrs Jarman & Norman AFTER he had a) bought his Coke on the second floor and b) returned to the first floor to eat his lunch. (Messrs Jarman & Norman were re-entering the building by the back door to head upstairs.) Shortly after this, Mr Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade.

Question for you, Mr Cakebread: What do you believe Mr Oswald actually told Captain Fritz re. second-floor lunchroom and his whereabouts when JFK passed the building? Be specific!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 08, 2021, 11:09:58 PM
Lord grant me patience with this one!

1. You did omit the joint report, skipping straight to the Bookhout-only report.

2. Mr Oswald, as we now know from the earliest interrogation report, claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" AFTER visiting the second floor lunchroom. You are falling for the scam pulled by those who buried his claim because they understood how dangerous it was to the narrative they were constructing against him.

3. Mr Oswald saw Messrs Jarman & Norman AFTER he had a) bought his Coke on the second floor and b) returned to the first floor to eat his lunch. (Messrs Jarman & Norman were re-entering the building by the back door to head upstairs.) Shortly after this, Mr Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade.

Question for you, Mr Cakebread: What do you believe Mr Oswald actually told Captain Fritz re. second-floor lunchroom and his whereabouts when JFK passed the building? Be specific!  Thumb1:

3. Mr Oswald saw Messrs Jarman & Norman AFTER he had a) bought his Coke on the second floor and b) returned to the first floor to eat his lunch. (Messrs Jarman & Norman were re-entering the building by the back door to head upstairs.) Shortly after this, Mr Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade.



No, that's not correct.....  Jarman and Norman passed by the Domino room at about 12:25 which was a few minutes BEFORE the P. Parade arrived.....AFTER they passed by the Domino room, Lee then went to the Second floor lunchroom and was there when Officer Baker and Roy Truly encountered him there with a coke in his hands.   Lee said that after Baker and Truly departed he returned to the Domino room to finish his lunch before going outside......Perhaps Lee thought the P. Parade was still passing by at that time, But we know that Baker entered the TSBD in search of the culprit who had fired a gun from the roof of the TSBD. and by the time Lee finished his lunch the P. Parade was over.....

What do you believe Mr Oswald actually told Captain Fritz re. second-floor lunchroom and his whereabouts when JFK passed the building?

Lee told Fritz that he had started eating his lunch when he saw Jarman and Norman walk by the windows of the Domino room.  After they boarded the elevator, and departed,  Lee decided that he wanted a Coke to consume with his sandwich so he went to the second floor lunchroom where the coke machine was located.  Lee was probably on the stairs or in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the time the shots were fired, because there is no report of Lee hearing any shots fired.  ( The Fact that Lee never mentioned hearing any gun fire is revealing...and the fact that none of his interrogators asked him if he had heard any gun shots is highly suspicious....   they asked all the other witnesses how many shots they had heard but they never asked Lee if he had heard any shots. ????)

So based on the reports filed....I believe that Lee Told Fritz that he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom with a coke in his hand when officer Baker burst into the room with his side arm in his hand. And I believe that Lee Told Fritz that he returned to the first floor with his coke to finish his lunch and after that he went outside to watch the P.Parade. 

Lee had no idea that shots had been fired and was perplexed at seeing Baker burst into the second floor lunchroom with his gun  in his hand.   Since He was ignorant and in the dark about the events unfolding outside, he simply assumed that the Parade was passing by  and so he went outside to watch.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 08, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Lee had no idea that shots had been fired and was perplexed at seeing Baker burst into the second floor lunchroom with his gun  in his hand.   Since He was ignorant and in the dark about the events unfolding outside, he simply assumed that the Parade was passing by  and so he went outside to watch.....

Ah, so the encounter with Ms Reid, in which she told him JFK had been shot, never happened?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 09, 2021, 12:23:07 AM
I dont see any problem with Oswald eating lunch in the Domino room having seen Norman and Jarman returning at approx 12:23 as they  passed by the Domino room ( they left front of TSBD approx 12:22 after overhearing a police radio reporting JFK motorcade was soon arriving to Dealey Plaza.

Imo, Oswald getting a Dr. Pepper bottle from the 1st floor machine just before going out to front entrance is is plausible because of coincidence of the Dr. Pepper bottle found at just at step and west side wall where PM was standing in Weigman and where PM would have stepped down to get photographed  with arm raised with bottle in hand.

If the original version of Altgens was clear enough to discern not only that the raised arm with bottle in hand was definitely BEHIND the face of Lewis , But that there was also a portion of the solid white Dr. Pepper bottle logo VISIBLE in that hand.....OMG... it’s Oswald!!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2021, 01:02:21 AM
Ah, so the encounter with Ms Reid, in which she told him JFK had been shot, never happened?

I don't know.... But I'm very doubtful that Mrs Reid saw Lee walking through the office area.   He said that he went to the second floor to gat a coke to go with his lunch....So I seriously doubt that he would have passed through thre office area on his way back down to finish his lunch. ......AND IF he had encountered Mrs Reid...he would certainly have told his interrogators that Mrs Reid could verify that he had a coke in his hands after his encounter with officer Baker. ( and she did in fact say that he had a coke AFTER she was told that Lee said that he had bought a coke from the coke machine in the 2nd lunchroom )
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2021, 01:42:55 AM
I dont see any problem with Oswald eating lunch in the Domino room having seen Norman and Jarman returning at approx 12:23 as they  passed by the Domino room ( they left front of TSBD approx 12:22 after overhearing a police radio reporting JFK motorcade was soon arriving to Dealey Plaza.

Imo, Oswald getting a Dr. Pepper bottle from the 1st floor machine just before going out to front entrance is is plausible because of coincidence of the Dr. Pepper bottle found at just at step and west side wall where PM was standing in Weigman and where PM would have stepped down to get photographed  with arm raised with bottle in hand.

If the original version of Altgens was clear enough to discern not only that the raised arm with bottle in hand was definitely BEHIND the face of Lewis , But that there was also a portion of the solid white Dr. Pepper bottle logo VISIBLE in that hand.....OMG... it’s Oswald!!!

I dont see any problem with Oswald eating lunch in the Domino room having seen Norman and Jarman returning at approx 12:23 as they  passed by the Domino room

It was after he saw Jarman and Norman pass by the Domino room that Lee decided that he wanted a coke to go with his sandwich, and he then went to the second floor lunchroom to buy that coke. He apparently went to the second floor about 12:28 and he was there when Baker burst into the lunchroom with his revolver in his hand., about 90 seconds after the first shot was fired.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 09, 2021, 06:39:22 AM
If the late Mr.Doyles alleged interview with relatives of Sarah Stanton is true, then Sarah Stanton saw Oswald with a “Pepsi” in hand on the 2nd floor landing BEFORE the lunchroom had cleared of all the office women. Time of observation by Stanton was probably not later than 12:10

So if Oswald already had a bottle in hand  at 12:10 Then it most likely came  from the 1st floor Dr. Pepper machine, otherwise,  Stanton and other office women still in the lunchroom  around 12:00-12:15 would have seen Oswald ENTER the lunchroom , go to the machine and buy a coke.

Seeing the lunchroom was still occupied, perhaps Oswald decided to return to the Domino room.

Carolyn Arnold’s account of returning!? To lunchroom at 12:15 is in conflict with Virgie Rackeys FBI statement of Arnold leaving the office with her presumably together and no account of Arnold separating from Rackley upon exiting the front office door.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 09, 2021, 07:02:29 AM
The fluffy white shirt person being on the East side of the center rail would consistent with Stanton having been at least momentarily beside Pauline Sanders in front of the TSBD entrance door

As I have speculated the fat lady would probably not stay blocking the front door, and would move to some other location, therefore moving down a few step from the front door would place Stanton where fluffy white shirt person is in the Altgens photo.

The item around the neck may very well be a scarf







Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 12:55:51 PM
I don't know.... But I'm very doubtful that Mrs Reid saw Lee walking through the office area.   He said that he went to the second floor to gat a coke to go with his lunch....So I seriously doubt that he would have passed through thre office area on his way back down to finish his lunch.

So why did Ms Reid invent the encounter? For kicks?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 01:00:43 PM
Imo, Oswald getting a Dr. Pepper bottle from the 1st floor machine just before going out to front entrance is is plausible because of coincidence of the Dr. Pepper bottle found at just at step and west side wall where PM was standing in Weigman and where PM would have stepped down to get photographed  with arm raised with bottle in hand.

If the original version of Altgens was clear enough to discern not only that the raised arm with bottle in hand was definitely BEHIND the face of Lewis , But that there was also a portion of the solid white Dr. Pepper bottle logo VISIBLE in that hand.....OMG... it’s Oswald!!!

The Dr Pepper is a red herring. Mr Oswald made it clear to Captain Fritz that he bought a Coke from the second floor lunchroom. The machine there did not sell Dr Pepper.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2021, 02:35:31 PM
So why did Ms Reid invent the encounter? For kicks?

Yes, if you wish to put it that way....She was just engaging in "office gossip"....  She had heard that Lee was wanted for shooting the President, and she  probably said something like " O my God!....I never realized that he had just shot the President when I saw him coming though the office area"   When in reality she saw nothing of the kind, and she didn't realize what that innocent gossip was going to lead to.  The cover up committee that was created by LBJ realized that they could exploit Mrs Reid's gossip and would not allow her to back away from her statement.   Surely you can see that in her testimony......
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 05:50:48 PM
Why do you skip over the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

“OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola ‘for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to’ be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed by his building.

The eyebrows of alert researchers had long been raised by the rather bizarre vagueness of that last bit: "on the first floor". Where on the first floor?? Thankfully, the mystery was lifted when an EVEN EARLIER report was finally unearthed in 2019: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he bought the Coke on two, then came downstairs for lunch, and then "went outside to watch P. Parade". The part of the first floor that Mr Oswald must have specified was: the front entrance.

This document of course destroys at a stroke the lie that Mr Oswald ever confirmed a post-assassination lunchroom encounter with an officer and Mr Truly. In fact he told them something that was completely at odds with the lunchroom encounter story. And so......... they buried it.

Comparing the evolving story told from one interrogation report to the next, in short, allows us to watch a key part of the cover-up against Mr Oswald take shape. If you weren't so besotted with the long-discredited lunchroom-encounter fiction, you would have no trouble recognizing the explosive import of the Hosty draft interrogation report that came to light in 2019-------and you wouldn't be taking recourse to ludicrously strained LNer-style argumentation in a desperate effort to explain its contents away.


"The eyebrows of alert researchers had long been raised by the rather bizarre vagueness of that last bit: "on the first floor". Where on the first floor?? Thankfully, the mystery was lifted when an EVEN EARLIER report was finally unearthed in 2019: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he bought the Coke on two, then came downstairs for lunch, and then "went outside to watch P. Parade". The part of the first floor that Mr Oswald must have specified was: the front entrance."

I know that pointing this out is a complete waste of time but you're like a scab I can't help but pick.
When a person is "outside" a building they do not consider themselves to be on any floor of that building and nobody else would consider them to be on any floor of that building.
The only people who would interpret things that way are those who are crazy enough to believe Oswald was African American or that Joe Molina is Sarah Stanton.
People who are rabidly defending a  BS: theory that is supported by zero evidence.
The only thing you ever offer is this note by Hosty but what does Hosty have to say about this in his own book - "Assignment: Oswald"

"With his cowboy hat tilted back on his head, Fritz leaned back
in his chair and asked, "Okay now, Lee, you work at the Texas
School Book Depository, isn't that right?"
"Yeah, that's right", Oswald answered, very politely
"When did you start working there?" Fritz asked.
"About October fifteenth."
"What did you do down there?"
"I was just a common laborer."
"Now, did you have access to all the floors in that building?"
"Of course."
"Tell me what was on each of thse floors."
"The first and second floors have offices. The third and fourth
are storage. So are the fifth and sixth."
"And you were working there today, is that right?"
"Yep."
"Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?"
"Yeah."
"Where were you when the president went by the book
depository?"
"I was eating my lunch in the first-floor lunchroom."
"What time was that?"
"About noon."
"Were you ever on the second floor around the time the
president was shot?"
"Well, yeah. I went up there to get a bottle of Coca-Cola from
the machine for my lunch."
"But where were you when the president actually passed your
building?"
"On the first floor in the lunchroom." [my emphasis]

Even Hosty contradicts the one piece of "evidence" Alan holds so dear. Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination, exactly as Oswald states himself on video.
But the chances of Fantasia Ford giving up on this are zero.







Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

"The eyebrows of alert researchers had long been raised by the rather bizarre vagueness of that last bit: "on the first floor". Where on the first floor?? Thankfully, the mystery was lifted when an EVEN EARLIER report was finally unearthed in 2019: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he bought the Coke on two, then came downstairs for lunch, and then "went outside to watch P. Parade". The part of the first floor that Mr Oswald must have specified was: the front entrance."

I know that pointing this out is a complete waste of time but you're like a scab I can't help but pick.
When a person is "outside" a building they do not consider themselves to be on any floor of that building and nobody else would consider them to be on any floor of that building.
The only people who would interpret things that way are those who are crazy enough to believe Oswald was African American or that Joe Molina is Sarah Stanton.
People who are rabidly defending a  BS: theory that is supported by zero evidence.
The only thing you ever offer is this note by Hosty but what does Hosty have to say about this in his own book - "Assignment: Oswald"

"With his cowboy hat tilted back on his head, Fritz leaned back
in his chair and asked, "Okay now, Lee, you work at the Texas
School Book Depository, isn't that right?"
"Yeah, that's right", Oswald answered, very politely
"When did you start working there?" Fritz asked.
"About October fifteenth."
"What did you do down there?"
"I was just a common laborer."
"Now, did you have access to all the floors in that building?"
"Of course."
"Tell me what was on each of thse floors."
"The first and second floors have offices. The third and fourth
are storage. So are the fifth and sixth."
"And you were working there today, is that right?"
"Yep."
"Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?"
"Yeah."
"Where were you when the president went by the book
depository?"
"I was eating my lunch in the first-floor lunchroom."
"What time was that?"
"About noon."
"Were you ever on the second floor around the time the
president was shot?"
"Well, yeah. I went up there to get a bottle of Coca-Cola from
the machine for my lunch."
"But where were you when the president actually passed your
building?"
"On the first floor in the lunchroom." [my emphasis]

Even Hosty contradicts the one piece of "evidence" Alan holds so dear. Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination, exactly as Oswald states himself on video.
But the chances of Fantasia Ford giving up on this are zero.

Hi Dan, While I agree with your point that Mr Ford has tunnel vision and refuses to consider any position that conflicts with his, I don't trust Hosty's recollection of the interrogation of Lee Oswald...   For one thing Hosty's version clashes with His own filed reports, and also the reports of Bookhout and Fritz.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
Yes, if you wish to put it that way....She was just engaging in "office gossip"....  She had heard that Lee was wanted for shooting the President, and she  probably said something like " O my God!....I never realized that he had just shot the President when I saw him coming though the office area"   When in reality she saw nothing of the kind, and she didn't realize what that innocent gossip was going to lead to.  The cover up committee that was created by LBJ realized that they could exploit Mrs Reid's gossip and would not allow her to back away from her statement.   Surely you can see that in her testimony......

I agree that she told a fictitious story, Mr Cakebread, but did so for a very different reason to the one you're giving.

Even without the supposed Ms Reid incident, your overall explanation for "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" is spectacularly weak and far-fetched. The idea that Mr Oswald, having had a cop stick a gun at his belly and then tear upstairs with Mr Truly, will then go back down to the domino room, spend several minutes eating lunch there all the while thinking the P. Parade hasn't arrived yet... before finally going outside to watch what he still thinks will be a normal P. Parade... requires a Mr Oswald who is mentally retarded, hearing impaired and in possession of the eye-power of Mr Magoo.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 07:47:14 PM

"The eyebrows of alert researchers had long been raised by the rather bizarre vagueness of that last bit: "on the first floor". Where on the first floor?? Thankfully, the mystery was lifted when an EVEN EARLIER report was finally unearthed in 2019: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he bought the Coke on two, then came downstairs for lunch, and then "went outside to watch P. Parade". The part of the first floor that Mr Oswald must have specified was: the front entrance."

I know that pointing this out is a complete waste of time but you're like a scab I can't help but pick.
When a person is "outside" a building they do not consider themselves to be on any floor of that building and nobody else would consider them to be on any floor of that building.

Gee, this document-------containing the unambiguous words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade"--------really has gotten under your skin, hasn't it, Mr O'Meara? Ain't nothing you can do about it! :D

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

Quote
The only thing you ever offer is this note by Hosty but what does Hosty have to say about this in his own book - "Assignment: Oswald"

"With his cowboy hat tilted back on his head, Fritz leaned back
in his chair and asked, "Okay now, Lee, you work at the Texas
School Book Depository, isn't that right?"
"Yeah, that's right", Oswald answered, very politely
"When did you start working there?" Fritz asked.
"About October fifteenth."
"What did you do down there?"
"I was just a common laborer."
"Now, did you have access to all the floors in that building?"
"Of course."
"Tell me what was on each of thse floors."
"The first and second floors have offices. The third and fourth
are storage. So are the fifth and sixth."
"And you were working there today, is that right?"
"Yep."
"Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?"
"Yeah."
"Where were you when the president went by the book
depository?"
"I was eating my lunch in the first-floor lunchroom."
"What time was that?"
"About noon."
"Were you ever on the second floor around the time the
president was shot?"
"Well, yeah. I went up there to get a bottle of Coca-Cola from
the machine for my lunch."
"But where were you when the president actually passed your
building?"
"On the first floor in the lunchroom." [my emphasis]

Even Hosty contradicts the one piece of "evidence" Alan holds so dear.

What Agent Hosty is contradicting is his own draft interrogation report. The account he gives in his book is thus exposed as a lie.  Thumb1:

Quote
Oswald is inside the building at the time of the assassination, exactly as Oswald states himself on video.
But the chances of Fantasia Ford giving up on this are zero.

Still unable to explain this shadow, Mr O'Meara? Must be driving you crazy!  :D

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 08:19:04 PM
Gee, this document-------containing the unambiguous words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade"--------really has gotten under your skin, hasn't it, Mr O'Meara? Ain't nothing you can do about it! :D

...the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

“OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola ‘for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to’ be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed by his building.”

Question: Where on the first floor was Oswald when the president passed by?

Alan Ford: Outside the building

 :D :D :D

You're priceless.

Quote
Still unable to explain this shadow, Mr O'Meara? Must be driving you crazy!  :D

It's just a shadow Alan. How many times do you have to be told?
And I have no intention wasting my time explaining to you how shadows work!
It's certainly not an alteration to the film to hide the fact Lovelady is wearing a long sleeve shirt which, through some truly bizarre logic, disproves your African American Oswald theory.

 :D :D :D

Keep 'em coming  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I agree that she told a fictitious story, Mr Cakebread, but did so for a very different reason to the one you're giving.

Wrong again (what a shock)

Reid's story is confirmed by Karen Westbrook Stanton in her Living History interview.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 08:54:47 PM
...the joint report by Agents Bookhout and Hosty which PRECEDES the Bookhout-only report, and which (unlike that later report) was written while Mr Oswald was still alive? Here's what that earlier report says-------------------

“OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola ‘for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to’ be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed by his building.”

Question: Where on the first floor was Oswald when the president passed by?

Alan Ford: Outside the building

Lol. Watching you do 'research', Mr O'Meara, reminds me of that one time I saw a bull browsing for items in a china store.

Earliest report: the Hosty draft report, in which Mr Oswald says he went outside to watch P. Parade (=what Mr Oswald actually said)
Second earliest report: the Hosty-Bookhout joint report, in which Mr Oswald says he was on the first floor when JFK passed the building (=a CYA version of what Mr Oswald actually said--------CYA because of the prospect that the case would go to trial)
Third earliest report: the Bookhout-only report, in which Mr Oswald confirms the 2FLRE story (=BS, alibi-burying version of what the now dead Mr Oswald actually said)

Quote
It's just a shadow Alan. How many times do you have to be told?
And I have no intention wasting my time explaining to you how shadows work!

Unless you propose to tell us that a shadow can be cast without any physical entity being there to cast it, you still got some splainin' to do, Mr O'Meara!

So-----------what, in your view, is casting the shadow on Mr Lovelady? Simple question, Mr O'Meara... why are you so terrified of giving it a simple answer?

(https://i.imgur.com/ICXtVjA.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 09:58:17 PM
Westbrook Scranton recalls the incident in detail.

You mean the incident where, with everyone walking and milling around and everything, Mr Oswald came to the door with a Coke in his hand and asked Ms Reid, "What's all the excitement about?" and Ms Reid told him "Oh my God, someone has shot the President!"? That incident?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 10:10:01 PM
A point worth making about my previous post.
I would urge anyone interested in this aspect of the case to watch the section of Scranton's interview regarding Reid's telling of her encounter with Oswald.
The story seems far too detailed to be some kind of 'misrememberance'.
I find it difficult to believe Scranton would feel the need to invent something like this so long after the event but if you're a bit tinfoil you might need more convincing
If we take her account at face value it leaves us with this 'reality':

Within an hour or so of the assassination Reid is telling her co-workers about meeting Oswald on the second floor. If Reid's account of her interaction with Oswald is true it supports the validity of the second floor lunchroom encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly. More importantly, if Reid is accurate in her estimation of the time interval between the final shot and her meeting with Oswald, it means she is an eye-witness placing Oswald on the second floor within 120 seconds of the final shot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 10:14:58 PM
You mean the incident where, with everyone walking and milling around and everything, Mr Oswald came to the door with a Coke in his hand and asked Ms Reid, "What's all the excitement about?" and Ms Reid told him "Oh my God, someone has shot the President!"? That incident?

Really?
Try again.
She is saying that while the TSBD employees were milling around in the office after the assassination Reid told her story about meeting Oswald at the door (of the office) with a Coke in his hand.
She is not saying Oswald came to the door of the office when everyone was milling around in there after the assassination. ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 10:20:05 PM
Really?
Try again.
She is saying that while the TSBD employees were milling around in the office after the assassination Reid told her story about meeting Oswald at the door (of the office) with a Coke in his hand.
She is not saying Oswald came to the door of the office when everyone was milling around in there after the assassination. ::)

So you--------in your zeal to take Ms Scranton's account at "face value"--------believe that Ms Reid told colleagues that Mr Oswald asked her "What's all the excitement about?"? If the answer is yes, then I am strongly minded to agree with you!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 10:29:39 PM
So you--------in your zeal to take Ms Scranton's account at "face value"--------believe that Ms Reid told colleagues that Mr Oswald asked her "What's all the excitement about?"? If the answer is yes, then I am strongly minded to agree with you!  Thumb1:

Stop trying to squirm out of it Alan.
Forget the details for now.
Scranton is confirming Reid was telling the story of meeting Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.
Way to soon to be part of a Hoax.

You have to call Scranton a liar because she blows your little world apart.
So just get it over with.
Call her the liar you think she is.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 10:35:42 PM
Stop trying to squirm out of it Alan.
Forget the details for now.
Scranton is confirming Reid was telling the story of meeting Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.
Way to soon to be part of a Hoax.

You have to call Scranton a liar because she blows your little world apart.
So just get it over with.
Call her the liar you think she is.

 :D

"Westbrook Scranton recalls the incident in detail." ---------Mr Dan O'Meara

"Forget the details for now."------------Mr Dan O'Meara (an hour-and-a-half later)

For the record: I most certainly do not think Ms Scranton is a liar. I believe she may have given us crucial information as to when exactly and where exactly Ms Reid's real encounter with Mr Oswald took place. (Hint: not in the second floor office, not some two minutes after the shooting.)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 10:43:56 PM
:D

"Westbrook Scranton recalls the incident in detail." ---------Mr Dan O'Meara

"Forget the details for now."------------Mr Dan O'Meara (an hour-and-a-half later)

For the record: I most certainly do not think Ms Scranton is a liar. I believe she may have given us crucial information as to when exactly and where exactly Ms Reid's real encounter with Mr Oswald took place. (Hint: not in the second floor office, not some two minutes after the shooting.)

So now you believe there was an encounter between Reid and Oswald?
Guess who wrote this just a few posts ago:

"She only told it because her boss Mr Truly needed help selling the lunchroom fiction that the still-alive Mr Oswald was unwittingly but dangerously refuting in interrogation."


Oh dear  ::)

So, where and when did the "real encounter" with Oswald take place?

 ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 11:00:20 PM
So now you believe there was an encounter between Reid and Oswald?
Guess who wrote this just a few posts ago:

"She only told it because her boss Mr Truly needed help selling the lunchroom fiction that the still-alive Mr Oswald was unwittingly but dangerously refuting in interrogation."

Oh but I stand over that statement 100%  Thumb1:

Quote
So, where and when did the "real encounter" with Oswald take place?

 ;)

Front entrance, just after the assassination. (Cf. what Messrs Lovelady & Shelley told the WC about Ms Gloria Calvery.)

Now, Mr O'Meara, question for you! Do you believe that Ms Reid told colleagues that the Coke-in-hand Mr Oswald had asked her, "What's all the excitement about?" Or are you now, suddenly, of the view that Ms Scranton did not after all recall in detail and that her account is not after all to be taken at face value?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 09, 2021, 11:13:49 PM
If the late Mr.Doyles alleged interview with relatives of Sarah Stanton is true, then Sarah Stanton saw Oswald with a “Pepsi” in hand on the 2nd floor landing BEFORE the lunchroom had cleared of all the office women.

No, that was a Doyle fabrication.  Rosa merely said that Sarah told her she saw Oswald on an unspecified staircase at an unspecified time holding a Pepsi, before saying that he was going back up.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 09, 2021, 11:19:17 PM
The only people who would interpret things that way are those who are crazy enough to believe Oswald was African American or that Joe Molina is Sarah Stanton.

Yeah, like you have proven in any way that your "appendage" is African American or what blob is Joe Molina.

Quote
People who are rabidly defending a  BS: theory that is supported by zero evidence.

pot-kettle

Quote
The only thing you ever offer is this note by Hosty but what does Hosty have to say about this in his own book - "Assignment: Oswald"

You mean the book he published in 1996 purporting to have word-for-word accounts of conversations?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 09, 2021, 11:23:24 PM
You have to call Scranton a liar because she blows your little world apart.

Says the guy who doesn't believe Westbrook's identification of herself in the Z film.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 11:25:42 PM
pot-kettle

I should be used to your cowardly, meaningless sniping from the side-lines but I'd like you to provide one theory I've ever put forward that is supported by zero evidence.
You won't be able to so why don't you STFU and keep your snide comments to yourself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2021, 11:31:16 PM
I agree that she told a fictitious story, Mr Cakebread, but did so for a very different reason to the one you're giving.

Even without the supposed Ms Reid incident, your overall explanation for "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" is spectacularly weak and far-fetched. The idea that Mr Oswald, having had a cop stick a gun at his belly and then tear upstairs with Mr Truly, will then go back down to the domino room, spend several minutes eating lunch there all the while thinking the P. Parade hasn't arrived yet... before finally going outside to watch what he still thinks will be a normal P. Parade... requires a Mr Oswald who is mentally retarded, hearing impaired and in possession of the eye-power of Mr Magoo.


 The idea that Mr Oswald, having had a cop stick a gun at his belly,and then tear upstairs with Mr Truly, will then go back down to the domino room, spend several minutes eating lunch there all the while thinking the P. Parade hasn't arrived yet... before finally going outside to watch what he still thinks will be a normal P. Parade... requires a Mr Oswald who is mentally retarded, hearing impaired and in possession of the eye-power of Mr Magoo.

When you embroider the encounter with this kind of hyperbole " had a cop stick a gun at his belly," you are simply doing yourself a disservice....and fooling yourself into believing that Lee wouldn't have gone "back down to the domino room, spend several minutes eating lunch there all the while thinking the P. Parade hasn't arrived yet..."

I doubt that you were an eye witness to the lunchroom encounter but perhaps you can explain WHY  Baker would "stick a gun at Lee's belly"   Lee was there with a Coca Cola in his hand and not acting suspicious, he was a bit perplexed, so WHY would Baker stick a gun at his belly ??? 

But when you exaggerate and spin the encounter, then you can  foolishly attempt to make the lunchroom encounter appear to have been spun from some conspirators wild imagination...     And the tale was invented before anybody knew that Lee was in that lunchroom at 12:30.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 11:41:04 PM

 The idea that Mr Oswald, having had a cop stick a gun at his belly,and then tear upstairs with Mr Truly, will then go back down to the domino room, spend several minutes eating lunch there all the while thinking the P. Parade hasn't arrived yet... before finally going outside to watch what he still thinks will be a normal P. Parade... requires a Mr Oswald who is mentally retarded, hearing impaired and in possession of the eye-power of Mr Magoo.

When you embroider the encounter with this kind of hyperbole " had a cop stick a gun at his belly," you are simply doing yourself a disservice....and fooling yourself into believing that Lee wouldn't have gone "back down to the domino room, spend several minutes eating lunch there all the while thinking the P. Parade hasn't arrived yet..."

I doubt that you were an eye witness to the lunchroom encounter but perhaps you can explain WHY  Baker would "stick a gun at Lee's belly"   Lee was there with a Coca Cola in his hand and not acting suspicious, he was a bit perplexed, so WHY would Baker stick a gun at his belly ??? 

But when you exaggerate and spin the encounter, then you can  foolishly attempt to make the lunchroom encounter appear to have been spun from some conspirators wild imagination...     And the tale was invented before anybody knew that Lee was in that lunchroom at 12:30.

You need to raise your objection with Mr Truly, not with me-------------

Mr. BELIN: All right. Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey Oswald when he asked the question?
Mr. TRULY: It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him.
Mr. BELIN: What portion of his body?
Mr. TRULY: Towards the middle portion of his body.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 09, 2021, 11:45:07 PM
Now, Mr O'Meara, question for you! Do you believe that Ms Reid told colleagues that the Coke-in-hand Mr Oswald had asked her, "What's all the excitement about?" Or are you now, suddenly, of the view that Ms Scranton did not after all recall in detail and that her account is not after all to be taken at face value?

Just to clarify something as I'm not 100% convinced you're fully understanding an important issue.
When I say that Scranton recalls the incident in detail I am referring to her setting the scene in which she heard Reid telling people about her interaction with Oswald. The incident she is referring to is hearing Reid telling the story about Oswald, she's not referring to the actual encounter between Reid and Oswald as she wasn't there when that happened.
As for the details of what Scranton recalls about the Reid/Oswald incident, I don't know. The only thing that interests me is that Reid is telling a story about an interaction with Oswald that has key similarities with her WC testimony and she's telling this story shortly after the assassination.
Scranton's account of Reid's telling the story about meeting with Oswald is credible and should be taken at face value.

Quote
Front entrance, just after the assassination. (Cf. what Messrs Lovelady & Shelley told the WC about Ms Gloria Calvery.)

What is the reference to Lovelady and Shelley about?
When Scranton recalls Reid saying "Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand", which door do you think she's referring to?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 09, 2021, 11:56:58 PM
Just to clarify something as I'm not 100% convinced you're fully understanding an important issue.
When I say that Scranton recalls the incident in detail I am referring to her setting the scene in which she heard Reid telling people about her interaction with Oswald. The incident she is referring to is hearing Reid telling the story about Oswald, she's not referring to the actual encounter between Reid and Oswald as she wasn't there when that happened.

That's far from clear from what she actually says:

"Mrs Reid said that she--when everybody was walking and milling and so forth--that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?' And Mrs Reid said she told him, 'Oh my God, someone has shot the President'" (emphasis added)

Quote
As for the details of what Scranton recalls about the Reid/Oswald incident, I don't know. The only thing that interests me is that Reid is telling a story about an interaction with Oswald that has key similarities with her WC testimony and she's telling this story shortly after the assassination.
Scranton's account of Reid's telling the story about meeting with Oswald is credible and should be taken at face value.

Well, ain't it funny how I'm the one taking the story at face value, while you're the one now scrambling to divert the discussion from its details.

Do you or do you not believe that Ms Reid told colleagues that Mr Oswald said "What's all the excitement about?"

Before you answer, permit me to remind you of your own words just a few posts back: "The story seems far too detailed to be some kind of 'misrememberance'." How have you gone from this to "As for the details of what Scranton recalls about the Reid/Oswald incident, I don't know." Either the details impress you or they don't.

Quote
When Scranton recalls Reid saying "Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand", which door do you think she's referring to?

Already answered, as you well know.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 12:27:51 AM
That's far from clear from what she actually says:

"Mrs Reid said that she--when everybody was walking and milling and so forth--that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?' And Mrs Reid said she told him, 'Oh my God, someone has shot the President'" (emphasis added)

Well, ain't it funny how I'm the one taking the story at face value, while you're the one now scrambling to divert the discussion from its details.

Do you or do you not believe that Ms Reid told colleagues that Mr Oswald said "What's all the excitement about?"

Before you answer, permit me to remind you of your own words just a few posts back: "The story seems far too detailed to be some kind of 'misrememberance'." How have you gone from this to "As for the details of what Scranton recalls about the Reid/Oswald incident, I don't know." Either the details impress you or they don't.

Already answered, as you well know.

Yeah, all a bit confusing (what a shock).

Which door did Reid meet Oswald at?
"Already answered" - by which you mean the front entrance of the TSBD.

But then you have Oswald coming to the door of the office in which everyone is milling around.
How do you account for this discrepancy?
When everyone was "locked in" the central office on the second floor by the police and were milling around, how did the encounter between Oswald and Reid take place?
When Scranton says "Lee came to the door", she is clearly talking about the door of the second floor office. The office she has just finished describing prior to telling the story about hearing Reid going on about Oswald.

How do you move all this down to the front entrance and what was that reference to Lovelady and Shelley all about?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 12:35:11 AM
Yeah, all a bit confusing (what a shock).

So now Ms Scranton's detailed recollection is "all a bit confusing", lol.

Quote
Which door did Reid meet Oswald at?
"Already answered" - by which you mean the front entrance of the TSBD.

But then you have Oswald coming to the door of the office in which everyone is milling around.

I don't have anything of the sort, nor does Ms Scranton. What you're doing here is superimposing Ms Reid's later story on the one she originally told colleagues (as per Ms Scranton, whose detailed recollection you used to admire).

Quote
How do you account for this discrepancy?
When everyone was "locked in" the central office on the second floor by the police and were milling around, how did the encounter between Oswald and Reid take place?
When Scranton says "Lee came to the door", she is clearly talking about the door of the second floor office. The office she has just finished describing prior to telling the story about hearing Reid going on about Oswald.

How do you move all this down to the front entrance and what was that reference to Lovelady and Shelley all about?

The reason you're asking all these questions is to deflect from the question I asked you: Do you believe Ms Reid told colleagues that Mr Oswald asked her "What's all the excitement about?". Kindly answer it  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 12:45:41 AM
Now! While Mr O'Meara writhes on the hook of his own making, let us take the question that Mr Oswald (according to Ms Scranton's account of what Ms Reid originally said) asked Ms Reid---------------"What's all the excitement about?"----------------and cross-reference it with this little nugget from Captain Fritz's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn’t think, I also asked him why he left the building.


Combining: Mr Oswald saw all the "excitement" but didn't understand what was going on until Ms Reid came running up and told him what had happened.

When Mr Truly got wind of what Ms Reid---------his clerical supervisor---------was telling people, he pressurized her into changing her story. She didn't give her affidavit until the Saturday.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 01:18:32 AM
So now Ms Scranton's detailed recollection is "all a bit confusing", lol.

 ;D What a comeback

Quote
I don't have anything of the sort, nor does Ms Scranton. What you're doing here is superimposing Ms Reid's later story on the one she originally told colleagues (as per Ms Scranton, whose detailed recollection you used to admire).

Scranton has Oswald coming to the door of the second floor office.
You fantasise that the Reid/Oswald encounter happened at the front entrance of the TSBD. Obviously you don't have even the slightest shred of evidence for this but that's never stopped you before.
The only one superimposing is you.
Still no explanation about your mysterious reference to Shelley and Lovelady in this regard

Quote
The reason you're asking all these questions is to deflect from the question I asked you: Do you believe Ms Reid told colleagues that Mr Oswald asked her "What's all the excitement about?". Kindly answer it  Thumb1:

The reason I'm asking all these questions is to show up your on-the-hoof for what it is.
As for your inane question - I totally accept Scranton is recalling this correctly. During the interview in general she comes across as a fairly competent witness.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 01:27:12 AM
Scranton has Oswald coming to the door of the second floor office.

Quote, please.

Quote
As for your inane question - I totally accept Scranton is recalling this correctly. During the interview in general she comes across as a fairly competent witness.

And yet Ms Reid has nothing of Mr Oswald's asking her "What's all the excitement about?" in any of her official statements, which all have her initiating the exchange and his mumbling something intelligible back at her.

From her W.C. testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?
Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't interested.


Why this change in Ms Reid's story?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 01:59:54 AM
Quote, please.

When Scranton tells her story she goes into great pains to describe the setting and in particular the central office in which the story takes place. She begins with an overview of the second floor in general:

"...our offices were around the building and then there was a centre office building, a large bullpen kind of office on the second floor, that was the office of the Texas School Book Depository."

She describes Reid as being the supervisor of this office. She then describes how she and her work colleagues "were milling around" in this office as they were "locked in" by the police. It is in this setting that Scranton describes Reid saying "that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand". In this context 'the door' can only refer to a door of the second floor central office. In no way can this be construed as meaning the front entrance of the TSBD.

Quote
And yet Ms Reid has nothing of Mr Oswald's asking her "What's all the excitement about?" in any of her official statements, which all have her initiating the exchange and his mumbling something intelligible back at her.

From her W.C. testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?
Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't interested.


Why this change in Ms Reid's story?

Scranton misheard. Misunderstood. Mis-remembered.
There is no mystery here whatsoever.
All that matters is Scranton confirming Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. She may have got some details wrong, so what, she's human. It's the context of the details that matter.
In your desperation you have to grab on to any small detail in the hope of making the context go away - Reid telling her work colleagues about an encounter with Oswald, coke in hand, in which she commented on the president's death, immediately after the assassination.

What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? If you absolutely no evidence whatsoever I wouldn't bother answering if I was you  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 02:07:15 AM
When Scranton tells her story she goes into great pains to describe the setting and in particular the central office in which the story takes place. She begins with an overview of the second floor in general:

"...our offices were around the building and then there was a centre office building, a large bullpen kind of office on the second floor, that was the office of the Texas School Book Depository."

She describes Reid as being the supervisor of this office. She then describes how she and her work colleagues "were milling around" in this office as they were "locked in" by the police. It is in this setting that Scranton describes Reid saying "that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand". In this context 'the door' can only refer to a door of the second floor central office. In no way can this be construed as meaning the front entrance of the TSBD.

Nope, you're just reading that into it. The scene Ms Scranton sets is of the place where they all were at the time Ms Reid told them of the incident.

Quote
Scranton misheard. Misunderstood. Mis-remembered.

 :D Why, just in your last post you wrote: "I totally accept Scranton is recalling this correctly." Time to take a walk, Mr O'Meara, you obviously need some air!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 02:21:54 AM
Nope, you're just reading that into it.

It's how the English language works (not your strong suit, I know)
In the context of the story being told "the door" can only refer to a door of the second floor central office. That's a fact of how the English language works. It's not a question of me reading into it.
It cannot refer to any other door.

Quote
The scene Ms Scranton sets is of the place where they all were at the time Ms Reid told them of the incident.


I know it's the place where they all were at the time Mrs Reid told them of the incident.
That's the whole point of what I'm saying.
The place where Scranton heard Reid telling the story and the place where Reid states she saw Oswald in her WC testimony is the same place.
You do realise that don't you?

Quote
:D Why, just in your last post you wrote: "I totally accept Scranton is recalling this correctly." Time to take a walk, Mr O'Meara, you obviously need some air!

English really isn't your strong suit  Thumb1:

You're being asked a specific question -

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "

Kindly answer  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 09:24:38 AM
The place where Scranton heard Reid telling the story and the place where Reid states she saw Oswald in her WC testimony is the same place.

Again, here's what Ms Scranton actually says in that Sixth Floor Museum interview:

"Mrs Reid said that she, when everybody was walking and milling and so forth, that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?'"

Let's for a moment "totally accept Scranton is recalling this correctly" (Mr D. O'Meara). What "excitement" could Mr Oswald have been talking about if this encounter happened in a quiet, empty office area? And why would Ms Reid drop Mr Oswald's question from all subsequent tellings of her story?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 09:30:23 AM

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn’t think, I also asked him why he left the building.


Question! Where would someone need to be to be a) eating lunch with some of the employees, b) seeing all the "excitement"?

(https://i.imgur.com/qHIlwtM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 12:15:20 PM
Question! Where would someone need to be to be a) eating lunch with some of the employees, b) seeing all the "excitement"?

(https://i.imgur.com/qHIlwtM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)

I would imagine the Domino room.
In this scenario Oswald is having his lunch around the time the president is assassinated.
He decides to get a coke from the second floor
As he leaves the Domino room he becomes aware of some commotion at the front enteance.
He goes up to the second floor and gets his coke.
Baker and Truly burst in.
Oswald walks into the second floor central office and sees Reid
After seeing the commotion downstairs and then been confronted by an armed policeman Oswald wants to know what all the excitement is about.
Reid tells him the president is shot.

For the third time -

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "


Kindly answer      8)



(And don't forget this:

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.


Oh dear :-[)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 03:52:36 PM
I would imagine the Domino room.
In this scenario Oswald is having his lunch around the time the president is assassinated.
He decides to get a coke from the second floor
As he leaves the Domino room he becomes aware of some commotion at the front enteance.
He goes up to the second floor and gets his coke.
Baker and Truly burst in.
Oswald walks into the second floor central office and sees Reid
After seeing the commotion downstairs and then been confronted by an armed policeman Oswald wants to know what all the excitement is about.
Reid tells him the president is shot.

In which Mr O'Meara once again pretends it's 2010 and the Hosty draft report doc doesn't exist. Genius!

Quote
For the third time -

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "

In which Mr O'Meara pretends he has accounted for the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman. Genius!

Quote
(And don't forget this:

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.


Oh dear :-[)

In which Mr O'Meara refutes the idea that a witness lied in their WC testimony by quoting from---------their WC testimony. Genius!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 05:24:43 PM
In which Mr O'Meara once again pretends it's 2010 and the Hosty draft report doc doesn't exist. Genius!

In which Mr O'Meara pretends he has accounted for the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman. Genius!

In which Mr O'Meara refutes the idea that a witness lied in their WC testimony by quoting from---------their WC testimony. Genius!

For the fourth time - 

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "

Kindly answer  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 10, 2021, 07:36:35 PM
Again, here's what Ms Scranton actually says in that Sixth Floor Museum interview:

"Mrs Reid said that she, when everybody was walking and milling and so forth, that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?'"

Let's for a moment "totally accept Scranton is recalling this correctly" (Mr D. O'Meara). What "excitement" could Mr Oswald have been talking about if this encounter happened in a quiet, empty office area? And why would Ms Reid drop Mr Oswald's question from all subsequent tellings of her story?

"Mrs Reid said that she, when everybody was walking and milling and so forth, that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?'"

Lee simply came to the door and asked...What's all the excitement about?

I seriously doubt that Lee came to any door and asked that question.....Where did you get that information....It clashes with all other accounts .... For example ...Lee never alluded to any such incident...And Mrs Reid said that Lee walked thtough the office area and right past her desk and never said anything until she said something about "someone shot the President"....

At that time, (which was  about two minutes after the first shot was fired) Mrs Reid wouldn't have known that JFK had been hit.....And she couldn't have known if someone had shot at JFK, or what the shooting was about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 08:38:02 PM
Lee never alluded to any such incident...

Yes, NB!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 09:04:20 PM
For the fourth time - 

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "

Kindly answer  Thumb1:

Because, unlike Ms Reid's on-the-record story, it actually makes sense: Mr Oswald goes "outside to watch P. Parade", sees "all the excitement" and (Coke still in hand) asks an employee who comes running up the steps what all the excitement is about. Later, when word filters through that Mr Oswald is a suspect in the assassination, said employee tells colleagues about her encounter at the door with the Coke-holding Mr Oswald. Later, though, she is pressurized into doing what her own immediate boss (Mr Truly) has been pressurized into doing: moving a front-entrance encounter up to the second floor.

But you, of course, are in loud denial about the fact that Mr Oswald not just claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" but actually did go "outside to watch P. Parade". At the heart of your denial is your comically hopeless identification of PM as Ms Stanton, as well as your excruciating public inability to explain away the impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film, an impossible shadow which all on its own proves that the 'investigating' authorities needed to hide something on those front steps.

But maybe I'm being unfair to you here on this last matter, Mr O'Meara? Maybe you have finally reached the point of being able to name the physical entity that is casting the shadow we see on Mr Billy Lovelady in the Wiegman film?

Do you think that physical entity might be a helicopter? A dragon? Thinking people are eager to hear your solution, Mr O'Meara---------so, for the love of all that is human, put us out of our suspense! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 09:05:12 PM
"Mrs Reid said that she, when everybody was walking and milling and so forth, that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?'"

Lee simply came to the door and asked...What's all the excitement about?

I seriously doubt that Lee came to any door and asked that question.....Where did you get that information....It clashes with all other accounts .... For example ...Lee never alluded to any such incident...And Mrs Reid said that Lee walked thtough the office area and right past her desk and never said anything until she said something about "someone shot the President"....

At that time, (which was  about two minutes after the first shot was fired) Mrs Reid wouldn't have known that JFK had been hit.....And she couldn't have known if someone had shot at JFK, or what the shooting was about.

So what do you make of Scranton's interview, Walt?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 09:14:48 PM
So what do you make of Scranton's interview, Walt?

Asks the man who started by waxing lyrical about Ms Scranton's reliability as a detail-recollecting witness and ended by fleeing in horror from the details of her recollections!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 09:42:12 PM
Asks the man who started by waxing lyrical about Ms Scranton's reliability as a detail-recollecting witness and ended by fleeing in horror from the details of her recollections!  :D

For the fifth time -

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "

Kindly answer  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 10:27:48 PM
For the fifth time -

"What evidence do you have Reid's encounter with Oswald happened at the front entrance of the TSBD? "

Kindly answer  Thumb1:

~yawn~ Already did, Mr O'Meara, guess you missed Reply #839.

While you're there -

What do you believe is casting the shadow on Mr Lovelady in Wiegman? Ms Stanton's handbag?  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 10:48:44 PM
Because, unlike Ms Reid's on-the-record story, it actually makes sense: Mr Oswald goes "outside to watch P. Parade", sees "all the excitement" and (Coke still in hand) asks an employee who comes running up the steps what all the excitement is about. Later, when word filters through that Mr Oswald is a suspect in the assassination, said employee tells colleagues about her encounter at the door with the Coke-holding Mr Oswald. Later, though, she is pressurized into doing what her own immediate boss (Mr Truly) has been pressurized into doing: moving a front-entrance encounter up to the second floor.

As has already been pointed out, English isn't your strong suit.
The question begins "what evidence do you have..."
What evidence?

Instead of providing even the slightest hint of evidence you go off, in true Fantasia Ford style, on some mad rant that you've completely made up, from start to finish.
Don't you see that you've completely made up this story?
Do you know what's real?

Quote
But you, of course, are in loud denial about the fact that Mr Oswald not just claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" but actually did go "outside to watch P. Parade". At the heart of your denial is your comically hopeless identification of PM as Ms Stanton, as well as your excruciating public inability to explain away the impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film, an impossible shadow which all on its own proves that the 'investigating' authorities needed to hide something on those front steps.

"...the fact that Mr Oswald...actually did go  "outside to watch P. Parade""

 ;D  Really?

Point out where I've denied Oswald claimed to have gone  "outside to watch P. Parade"
You can't.
You don't seem to know the difference between what is really happening and your fantasy world. It's alright for you to invent a fantasy world based on zero evidence and believe it's a fact. Or make false claims about those who have to deal with your nonsense.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 10, 2021, 10:51:59 PM
What do you believe is casting the shadow on Mr Lovelady in Wiegman? Ms Stanton's handbag?  Thumb1:

What about Black Oswald's giant bottle of coke  Thumb1:

Here's a clue for you Alan.
What's casting the shadow across Sarah Stanton  ;D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 11:35:41 PM
As has already been pointed out, English isn't your strong suit.
The question begins "what evidence do you have..."
What evidence?

Instead of providing even the slightest hint of evidence you go off, in true Fantasia Ford style, on some mad rant that you've completely made up, from start to finish.
Don't you see that you've completely made up this story?

Nope, you're just completely in denial about the full implications of this document, and of the fact that Mr Oswald's bombshell claim was buried:

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 11:37:46 PM
Here's a clue for you Alan.
What's casting the shadow across Sarah Stanton  ;D

Her hands.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2021, 11:46:13 PM
A curious item re. Ms Jeraldean Reid.......

Ms Martha Reed, a second floor Depository employee, was on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm St "about one-half way between Record and Houston Streets" when she heard the shots. Here's what she told the FBI 11/23:

"... she did not know where the shots came from. She went up the front stairs of the Texas School Book Depository building to the second floor offices where she spoke to Mrs HEID and Mrs HINE, told them about the shooting of the President, which she had heard on the street, and then returned to the front door of the building...."

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1b/45/ZZ7UYI9S_o.jpg)

If "Mrs HEID" is a typo for "Mrs REID", then we have a problem: the woman who supposedly informed Mr Oswald about the shooting of the President herself needed to be informed by another colleague about the shooting of the President.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 02:07:54 AM
A curious item re. Ms Jeraldean Reid.......

Ms Martha Reed, a second floor Depository employee, was on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm St "about one-half way between Record and Houston Streets" when she heard the shots. Here's what she told the FBI 11/23:

"... she did not know where the shots came from. She went up the front stairs of the Texas School Book Depository building to the second floor offices where she spoke to Mrs HEID and Mrs HINE, told them about the shooting of the President, which she had heard on the street, and then returned to the front door of the building...."

If "Mrs HEID" is a typo for "Mrs REID", then we have a problem: the woman who supposedly informed Mr Oswald about the shooting of the President herself needed to be informed by another colleague about the shooting of the President.

As I've already made clear, I do not believe for one second the story told by Ms Reid after 11/23. It's as phony as the lunchroom story her boss Mr Truly was telling.

Now, in the light of the above information from Ms Martha Reed------------in which she informs both Ms Reid and Ms Hine in the second floor office area that JFK has just been shot-------------I offer again Ms Scranton's recollection of what Ms Reid was telling colleagues in the second floor office while they were on lock-down after the shooting:

"Mrs Reid said that she--when everybody was walking and milling and so forth--that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?' And Mrs Reid said she told him, 'Oh my God, someone has shot the President'"

The temptation is to read this as "Mrs Reid, when everybody was walking and milling and so forth, said that..." But that's not what Ms Scranton has said, which is instead: "Mrs Reid said that she--when everybody was walking and milling and so forth--that Lee came to the door..."

What if we put these two elements together, i.e.
--------------a) Ms Jeraldean Reid not knowing about the shooting until Ms Martha Reed comes into the second floor office and tells her and Ms Hine about what has just happened out in the street
--------------b) Ms Jeraldean Reid having an interaction with Mr Oswald at a time when "everybody was walking and milling and so forth" and when she (Ms Reid) has knowledge that somebody has shot the President?

When and where might such a LHO-Reid encounter have really happened?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 03:29:19 AM
As I've already made clear, I do not believe for one second the story told by Ms Reid after 11/23. It's as phony as the lunchroom story her boss Mr Truly was telling.

Now, in the light of the above information from Ms Martha Reed------------in which she informs both Ms Reid and Ms Hine in the second floor office area that JFK has just been shot-------------I offer again Ms Scranton's recollection of what Ms Reid was telling colleagues in the second floor office while they were on lock-down after the shooting:

"Mrs Reid said that she--when everybody was walking and milling and so forth--that Lee came to the door with a coke in his hand and said, 'What's all the excitement about?' And Mrs Reid said she told him, 'Oh my God, someone has shot the President'"

The temptation is to read this as "Mrs Reid, when everybody was walking and milling and so forth, said that..." But that's not what Ms Scranton has said, which is instead: "Mrs Reid said that she--when everybody was walking and milling and so forth--that Lee came to the door..."

What if we put these two elements together, i.e.
--------------a) Ms Jeraldean Reid not knowing about the shooting until Ms Martha Reed comes into the second floor office and tells her and Ms Hine about what has just happened out in the street
--------------b) Ms Jeraldean Reid having an interaction with Mr Oswald at a time when "everybody was walking and milling and so forth" and when she (Ms Reid) has knowledge that somebody has shot the President?

When and where might such a LHO-Reid encounter have really happened?

One way into this might be to note a certain detail in this photograph of the second-floor lunchroom---------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/e0/3a/yqhMgZaK_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 11, 2021, 05:15:47 AM
If PM is Oswald then he was still outside even as Baker is seen in Couch film running across the pavement towards the TSBD entrance steps.

Since PM has been outside for the duration of the 3 shots fired   Idoes not make any sense he would have asked a question like “what’s all the excitement about?” in some post shots meeting with Mrs Reid.

On the other hand , if Oswald has been eating his lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom 12:15 to 12:30 ( Carolyn Arnold sighting him SEATED at 12:15)

Then a siren crescendo by 20 sec shots might of been the reason Oswald left the lunchroom, approx 20 sec post shots , wearing only his Tshirt and with an unopened coke in hand, to enter the 2nd floor office to enquire why airens were going off

Hence, the Question “What’s all the excitement about”  when Oswald meets Reid entering the front office door at approx 50-60 sec post shots




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 11, 2021, 05:47:09 AM
The other alternatives:
1: Mrs Reid fabricating a false story
2. Mrs Reid confusing a pre parade meeting with Oswald just before she being the last of the office women to leave the office approx 12:14 a minute
prior to Carolyn Arnold returning to the lunchroom at 12:15
3. Mrs Reid is one of those women seen ascending the TSBD front steps in Couch film and runs into PM (Oswald) and for some reason Oswald hasn’t realized the President was shot even though Oswald must have heard shots fired, this asking Reid what’s all the excitement about
4. Mrs Reid is one of the women seen turning around in the Couch film as Baker runs past and thru them, and thus meets Oswald about 15 seconds behind Baker and Truly entering the front lobby (approx 35 sec post shots)
The meeting occurs with Oswald as Reid try’s to use the passenger elevator and finds its inoperative

5. Oswald meets Baker/Truly in the entrance lobby. Oswald has returned into the front lobby about 10 sec before Baker enters the front door. Oswald goes to storage room by the front staircase where he had left his jacket, puts it on and exits just as Baker and Truly have traversed the entrance foyer  and about open the 2nd set of glass doors.

6. Oswald is missed being seen by Baker/Truly in the foyer because Oswald was going up the front staircase , in his way to A. Get his jacket, which he had left in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and B. Returning his empty coke or Dr.Pepper bottle, to the box Mr. Ford has pointed out in the lunchroom photo
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 11, 2021, 02:25:07 PM
If PM is Oswald then he was still outside even as Baker is seen in Couch film running across the pavement towards the TSBD entrance steps.

Since PM has been outside for the duration of the 3 shots fired   Idoes not make any sense he would have asked a question like “what’s all the excitement about?” in some post shots meeting with Mrs Reid.

On the other hand , if Oswald has been eating his lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom 12:15 to 12:30 ( Carolyn Arnold sighting him SEATED at 12:15)

Then a siren crescendo by 20 sec shots might of been the reason Oswald left the lunchroom, approx 20 sec post shots , wearing only his Tshirt and with an unopened coke in hand, to enter the 2nd floor office to enquire why airens were going off

Hence, the Question “What’s all the excitement about”  when Oswald meets Reid entering the front office door at approx 50-60 sec post shots

If PM is Oswald then he was still outside even as Baker is seen in Couch film running across the pavement towards the TSBD entrance steps.

PM man isn't Lee Oswald.....

Since PM has been outside for the duration of the 3 shots fired   Idoes not make any sense he would have asked a question like “what’s all the excitement about?” in some post shots meeting with Mrs Reid.

That's logical.... 

On the other hand , if Oswald has been eating his lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom 12:15 to 12:30 ( Carolyn Arnold sighting him SEATED at 12:15)

Lee said that he ate his lunch in the FIRST FLOOR lunchroom.  He also said that he saw Jarman and Norman as they walked by the Domino room while he was eating his lunch.  Jarman and Norman walked by the Domino room at about 12:23....


Then a siren crescendo by 20 sec shots might of been the reason Oswald left the lunchroom, approx 20 sec post shots , wearing only his Tshirt and with an unopened coke in hand, to enter the 2nd floor office to enquire why airens were going off


Hmmmmm....  So you believe the shooting occurred at about 12:15 ....and Lee was in the second floor lunchroom?? WHY on earth would you believe such nonsense?


Hence, the Question “What’s all the excitement about”  when Oswald meets Reid entering the front office door at approx 50-60 sec post shots

There's NO solid evidence that Lee walked through the second floor office are about 2 or 3 mintues AFTER the first shot was fired.....    We have only Mrs. Reid's story, and her story sounds like "office gossip" and it doesn't make sense.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 11, 2021, 02:59:36 PM
The other alternatives:
1: Mrs Reid fabricating a false story
2. Mrs Reid confusing a pre parade meeting with Oswald just before she being the last of the office women to leave the office approx 12:14 a minute
prior to Carolyn Arnold returning to the lunchroom at 12:15
3. Mrs Reid is one of those women seen ascending the TSBD front steps in Couch film and runs into PM (Oswald) and for some reason Oswald hasn’t realized the President was shot even though Oswald must have heard shots fired, this asking Reid what’s all the excitement about
4. Mrs Reid is one of the women seen turning around in the Couch film as Baker runs past and thru them, and thus meets Oswald about 15 seconds behind Baker and Truly entering the front lobby (approx 35 sec post shots)
The meeting occurs with Oswald as Reid try’s to use the passenger elevator and finds its inoperative

5. Oswald meets Baker/Truly in the entrance lobby. Oswald has returned into the front lobby about 10 sec before Baker enters the front door. Oswald goes to storage room by the front staircase where he had left his jacket, puts it on and exits just as Baker and Truly have traversed the entrance foyer  and about open the 2nd set of glass doors.

6. Oswald is missed being seen by Baker/Truly in the foyer because Oswald was going up the front staircase , in his way to A. Get his jacket, which he had left in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and B. Returning his empty coke or Dr.Pepper bottle, to the box Mr. Ford has pointed out in the lunchroom photo

1: Mrs Reid fabricating a false story

Yes, Mrs Reid, made up the story about seeing Lee walk through the office area about 2 or three minutes after the first shot was fired .  It was just innocent "office gossip" and she had no idea that she laid the foundation on which a shyster lawyer would build a false case against Lee Oswald.

We know that IF the incident had occurred it would have to have happened just a few minutes after the first shot was fired, and AFTER Baker had encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom.   There was no way that Mrs Reid could have known that someone had shot at the President just a couple of minutes after the shooting..... And I doubt that she would have speculated about the shots so soon after the shooting.           
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 06:09:35 PM
Since PM has been outside for the duration of the 3 shots fired   Idoes not make any sense he would have asked a question like “what’s all the excitement about?” in some post shots meeting with Mrs Reid.

Well, others in that doorway said they didn't know what had just happened until Ms Gloria Calvery came running up and told them the President had been shot.

Quote
On the other hand , if Oswald has been eating his lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom 12:15 to 12:30 ( Carolyn Arnold sighting him SEATED at 12:15)

Then a siren crescendo by 20 sec shots might of been the reason Oswald left the lunchroom, approx 20 sec post shots , wearing only his Tshirt and with an unopened coke in hand, to enter the 2nd floor office to enquire why airens were going off

Hence, the Question “What’s all the excitement about”  when Oswald meets Reid entering the front office door at approx 50-60 sec post shots

This leaves out the all-important Hosty draft report: Mr Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. Parade"--------something that makes no sense if he's just been told JFK has been shot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 11, 2021, 06:11:26 PM
1: Mrs Reid fabricating a false story

Yes, Mrs Reid, made up the story about seeing Lee walk through the office area about 2 or three minutes after the first shot was fired .  It was just innocent "office gossip" and she had no idea that she laid the foundation on which a shyster lawyer would build a false case against Lee Oswald.

We know that IF the incident had occurred it would have to have happened just a few minutes after the first shot was fired, and AFTER Baker had encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom.   There was no way that Mrs Reid could have known that someone had shot at the President just a couple of minutes after the shooting..... And I doubt that she would have speculated about the shots so soon after the shooting.         


Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard-I heard three shots.
Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots?
Mrs. Rzm. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, “Oh, my goodness, I am
afraid those came from our building,” because it seemed like they came just so
directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three
colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn’t know the rest of
them so well.
Mr. BELIN. Which one did you know?
Mrs. REID. James Jarman.
Mr. BJZLIN. You recognized James Jarman?
Mrs. REID. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the business
part and I knew him. I couldn’t have told you the other two at all because I
didn’t know them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that floor you saw them on?
Mrs. REIIL Well, I wasn’t exactly looking at the floor, I don’t know, I would
say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don’t know exactly.
Mr. BELIN. You don’t remember which floor it was.
Mrs. REID. I couldn’t tell you because, you know, I didn’t count the floors
and I didn’t count them, and I made the statement “Oh, I hope they don’t think
any of our boys have done this” and I had no thoughts of anything like that. I
turned and went back in the building.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this then.
273
Mrs. Rnm. All right.
Mr. BEUIP. Before you turned and went back into the building did you-did
Mr. Campbell say anything to you?
Mrs. Rxro. He said, “Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down
this way,” and that was the last I said to him.
Mr. BELIE. All right. When he said “this way” which direction was he
pointing?
Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade
was going, in the bottom of that direction.
Mr. Baa. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people
were doing?
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to
fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out
of this line of shots, they may fire some more. and don’t ask me why I went
into the building because I don’t know.

LBJ's cover up committee determined that Lee Oswald would have passed  Mrs Reid near her deak in the office area,  about 2 minutes after the first shot was fired.  Baker had encountered Lee In the Lunchroom about 1 1/2  minutes after the first shot was fired.   At that Time Mrs Reid allegedly  said to Lee....( paraphrased) "Someone has shot the President but I don't know if they hit him." 

Question.... How could Mrs Reid have made that assumption so soon after the shooting?   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 06:15:50 PM
6. Oswald is missed being seen by Baker/Truly in the foyer because Oswald was going up the front staircase , in his way to A. Get his jacket, which he had left in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and B. Returning his empty coke or Dr.Pepper bottle, to the box Mr. Ford has pointed out in the lunchroom photo

The question is: where did Mr Oswald dispose of his empty coke bottle?

If he went back up to the second floor lunchroom to put it in the empties crate, at a time several minutes after the assassination when "everybody was walking and milling and so forth" in the office area, could this have been the time he and Ms Reid had their real encounter?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 11, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
The question is: where did Mr Oswald dispose of his empty coke bottle?

If he went back up to the second floor lunchroom to put it in the empties crate, at a time several minutes after the assassination when "everybody was walking and milling and so forth" in the office area, could this have been the time he and Ms Reid had their real encounter?

Lee said that after Baker and Truly left him in the second flor lunchroom he returned to the 1st floor Domino Room with his coke and finished eating his lunch.....then he went outside and stood around for five minutes before leaving.  He said nothing about passing through the office area ....and the most direct route to the Domino Room would have been by way the the stairs in the NW corner and then across the first floor to the NE corner where the Domino Room was located.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 08:50:32 PM
Lee said that after Baker and Truly left him in the second flor lunchroom he returned to the 1st floor Domino Room with his coke and finished eating his lunch.....then he went outside and stood around for five minutes before leaving.  He said nothing about passing through the office area ....and the most direct route to the Domino Room would have been by way the the stairs in the NW corner and then across the first floor to the NE corner where the Domino Room was located.

The first two reports (Hosty draft + Hosty-Bookhout joint) of what Mr Oswald said in that first interrogation make NO mention whatsoever of any lunchroom encounter with an officer & Mr Truly. The words confirming that supposed encounter are put in his mouth, after his death, by Agent Bookhout in his solo report.

Also: the Hosty draft report makes perfectly clear that Mr Oswald said he went out to watch the P. Parade----------AFTER buying the Coke and coming downstairs to eat his lunch.

Research into this phase of the case now splits into two camps:
a) those who understand the significance of the Hosty draft report that came to light in 2019
b) those who are still in denial about what's in that draft report.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 10:09:07 PM
Finally, I once again sincerely believe that the left index finger of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier in this photograph is telling us the all important fact that Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's tongue dare not speak:

(https://i.imgur.com/z6ffleg.jpg)

 Thumb1:

"Well, when this all happened, I was terrified. And, some people believe in a conspiracy, and some don't. Well, you can believe whatever you like. This is America. But I knew that if there was people behind this, you'd best keep silent. Not go around talking. Because I didn't want anything to happen to my family."

---------Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, 7/13/2013
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 11, 2021, 10:16:06 PM
Presuming Hosty note is true and not some obfuscation of some other statement Oswald said like “Went out to the front steps to see what all the excitement was about”

Then the meeting with Baker/Truly has to occur on the 1st floor, In the entrance foyer , because of PM= Oswald entering probably not earlier than approx 10 secs ahead of Baker/Truly

Answer to Walt regarding Oswald leaving the lunchroom at 12:15. That’s not what I proposed. I’m saying Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom STARTING at 12:15, hence seen by Carolyn Arnold SEATED, and that Oswald REMAINED in the lunchroom right up till 12:30 and only left about 20 secs post shots because the increasing volume of sirens going off prompted him to visit the adjacent 2nd floor office to ask anyone in the office “why the siren noise?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 11, 2021, 10:31:20 PM
Does Mr. Ford swear on the Holy Book that the image he posted of the fuzzy version of Altgens that has an upraised arm and bottle shaped object
Is from a reliable source?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 10:31:45 PM
Presuming Hosty note is true and not some obfuscation of some other statement Oswald said like “Went out to the front steps to see what all the excitement was about”

Then the meeting with Baker/Truly has to occur on the 1st floor, In the entrance foyer , because of PM= Oswald entering probably not earlier than approx 10 secs ahead of Baker/Truly

According to Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes, Mr Oswald placed the encounter on the first floor, front entrance---------in the "vestibule". This word can mean "lobby"; it can also mean "porch"/"portico".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2021, 10:36:14 PM
Does Mr. Ford swear on the Holy Book that the image he posted of the fuzzy version of Altgens that has an upraised arm and bottle shaped object
Is from a reliable source?

Yes-----------we even see Mr Cronkite's finger pointing out detail in the closeup as he holds it up to the camera.

Why?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 11, 2021, 11:46:47 PM
Sour  it’s a verifiable version of Altgens that Cronkite was looking at, then the CLEAR  actual photo that was Cronkite must have observed , theoretically would show this arm and bottle clear enough to remove doubt that ii was any photographic quirk, and therefore substantial evidence of someone with bottle upraised just behind Lewis.

Would Cronkite have kept this arm upraise version off Altgens photo and can it possible be found?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 12, 2021, 12:33:11 AM
Sour  it’s a verifiable version of Altgens that Cronkite was looking at, then the CLEAR  actual photo that was Cronkite must have observed , theoretically would show this arm and bottle clear enough to remove doubt that ii was any photographic quirk, and therefore substantial evidence of someone with bottle upraised just behind Lewis.

Would Cronkite have kept this arm upraise version off Altgens photo and can it possible be found?

That would of course be nice, Mr Mason, but the differences between the Cronkite closeup and the 'canonical' version are already glaring enough for us to see what has been done to the image------------

(https://i.imgur.com/cwI3McN.jpg) ----vs----(https://i.imgur.com/Ez8BBFp.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 12, 2021, 07:13:02 AM
I should be used to your cowardly, meaningless sniping from the side-lines but I'd like you to provide one theory I've ever put forward that is supported by zero evidence.
You won't be able to so why don't you STFU and keep your snide comments to yourself.

U mad bro?

Absolutely: your “identification” of Gloria Calvery in Darnell.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 12, 2021, 07:21:34 AM
It's how the English language works (not your strong suit, I know)
In the context of the story being told "the door" can only refer to a door of the second floor central office. That's a fact of how the English language works. It's not a question of me reading into it.
It cannot refer to any other door.

Notice how Dan always goes into arrogant insult mode when he’s on the wrong end of a failing argument? It is pure conjecture what “the door” refers to.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 12, 2021, 03:11:56 PM
Notice how Dan always goes into arrogant insult mode when he’s on the wrong end of a failing argument? It is pure conjecture what “the door” refers to.

It is pure conjecture what “the door” refers to.

FWIW..... IMO It seems clear to me that she was referring to the door at the back of the office area. The door that  is at the south end of the foyer which was at the west end of the 2nd floor lunch room.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 12, 2021, 10:35:05 PM
It is pure conjecture what “the door” refers to.

FWIW..... IMO It seems clear to me that she was referring to the door at the back of the office area. The door that  is at the south end of the foyer which was at the west end of the 2nd floor lunch room.

It only 'seems clear' for the same reason it 'seems clear' that a jacket-wearing "man walking away from the stairway" on "the third or fourth floor" refers to a non-jacket-wearing man seen through a small window in a closed door leading to the door to a lunchroom on the second floor; or that the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" cannot possibly refer to the act of going outside to watch the Presidential Parade
-------------i.e. the official story so dominates the researcher's psyche that said psyche has long since lost the ability to even imagine any other scenario.

All LNers suffer from this sad syndrome; many CTers do to!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 13, 2021, 12:29:33 AM
It only 'seems clear' for the same reason it 'seems clear' that a jacket-wearing "man walking away from the stairway" on "the third or fourth floor" refers to a non-jacket-wearing man seen through a small window in a closed door leading to the door to a lunchroom on the second floor; or that the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" cannot possibly refer to the act of going outside to watch the Presidential Parade
-------------i.e. the official story so dominates the researcher's psyche that said psyche has long since lost the ability to even imagine any other scenario.

All LNers suffer from this sad syndrome; many CTers do to!

It only 'seems clear' for the same reason it 'seems clear' that a jacket-wearing "man walking away from the stairway" on "the third or fourth floor" refers to a non-jacket-wearing man seen through a small window in a closed door leading to the door to a lunchroom on the second floor;]

Pssssst, Alan. I've long ago rejected the nonsense the Lee was the man that Baker saw on either the third or fourth floor.

I believe that Baker was wrong about the floor that he saw a 165 pound man who was wearing a tan jacket who was WALKING AWAY FROM THE STAIRS .........on  the fifth floor.

Clearly Baker's description of the man DID NOT fit Lee Oswald, nor did the location fit the second floor lunchroom.....The 165 pound man who was wearing a tan jacket was NOT Lee Oswald.   The encounter with Lee in the second floor lunchroom was so innocuous that Baker completely dismissed that encounter when he was informed that he may may have encountered the assassin in the TSBD when he dashed through the building immediately following the shooting.  Since the 165 pound man (who was on the 5th floor) was acting suspicious and trying to avoid being seen when Baker yelled at him and told him to "Come here"  .....THAT was the man that Baker thought may have been the assassin when he wrote his affidavit.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 13, 2021, 02:47:43 PM
It only 'seems clear' for the same reason it 'seems clear' that a jacket-wearing "man walking away from the stairway" on "the third or fourth floor" refers to a non-jacket-wearing man seen through a small window in a closed door leading to the door to a lunchroom on the second floor;]

Pssssst, Alan. I've long ago rejected the nonsense the Lee was the man that Baker saw on either the third or fourth floor.

I believe that Baker was wrong about the floor that he saw a 165 pound man who was wearing a tan jacket who was WALKING AWAY FROM THE STAIRS .........on  the fifth floor.

Clearly Baker's description of the man DID NOT fit Lee Oswald, nor did the location fit the second floor lunchroom.....The 165 pound man who was wearing a tan jacket was NOT Lee Oswald.   The encounter with Lee in the second floor lunchroom was so innocuous that Baker completely dismissed that encounter when he was informed that he may may have encountered the assassin in the TSBD when he dashed through the building immediately following the shooting.  Since the 165 pound man (who was on the 5th floor) was acting suspicious and trying to avoid being seen when Baker yelled at him and told him to "Come here"  .....THAT was the man that Baker thought may have been the assassin when he wrote his affidavit.

P.S....  Baker was in the Homicide office when he wrote out his affidavit.....   And Lee Oswald passed right in front of him at that time. ( Lee was being escorted to an interrogation with Capt. Fritz)    So why didn't Baker simply tell the interrogators that the man being escorted was the man that he had stopped on "either the 3rd or 4th floor" ?    Or why didn't he give an accurate description of Lee Oswald if he thought that Lee was the 165 pound man that he had stopped?

I believe that there were TWO different men and TWO different places involved..... And the first encounter of the 131 pound Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom was so innocuous that Baker completely dismissed that man as a suspect.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 13, 2021, 08:43:08 PM
P.S....  Baker was in the Homicide office when he wrote out his affidavit.....   And Lee Oswald passed right in front of him at that time. ( Lee was being escorted to an interrogation with Capt. Fritz)    So why didn't Baker simply tell the interrogators that the man being escorted was the man that he had stopped on "either the 3rd or 4th floor" ?    Or why didn't he give an accurate description of Lee Oswald if he thought that Lee was the 165 pound man that he had stopped?

Very worth noting!  Thumb1:

But by the same token-----------

If while giving the affidavit Officer Baker sees a man being brought in in handcuffs, and remembers having encountered this heavily guarded suspect at a lunchroom on the second floor shortly after the assassination, why on earth does his affidavit not make mention of this very significant fact?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 13, 2021, 08:55:40 PM
Near-horizontal bottle in front of Lovelady shirt------------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4d/38/12CCzaCf_o.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 14, 2021, 01:10:40 AM
Very worth noting!  Thumb1:

But by the same token-----------

If while giving the affidavit Officer Baker sees a man being brought in in handcuffs, and remembers having encountered this suspect at a lunchroom on the second floor shortly after the assassination, why on earth does his affidavit not make mention of this very significant fact in the affidavit?

why on earth does his affidavit not make mention of this very significant fact in the affidavit?

Good question.....   And I believe the reason that Baker didn't recall seeing Lee Oswald and the lunchroom encounter....is Because, it was so quick and uneventful that he simply dismissed the entire event.  After writing the affidavit he received more details about the suspect and was told that the suspect had murdered a fellow police officer. so he simply closed ranks and said whatever his superior officers wanted him to say.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 14, 2021, 01:59:35 PM
why on earth does his affidavit not make mention of this very significant fact in the affidavit?

Good question.....   And I believe the reason that Baker didn't recall seeing Lee Oswald and the lunchroom encounter....is Because, it was so quick and uneventful that he simply dismissed the entire event.  After writing the affidavit he received more details about the suspect and was told that the suspect had murdered a fellow police officer. so he simply closed ranks and said whatever his superior officers wanted him to say.

Mr Cakebread, your fine analysis here leaves you just one step away from recognizing the obvious truth of the lunchroom encounter story told by Mr Truly and Officer Baker: it never happened.

Officer Baker takes a long time before he goes on the record to confirm any lunchroom encounter. Meanwhile, the only LHO-cop encounter DPD are telling press about in the hours after the assassination is an encounter at the front entrance. Mr Billy Lovelady tells Mr James Jarman that he saw Mr Oswald confronted by an officer at the front entrance. And Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes hears Mr Oswald himself talk about an encounter there too ("First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.").

The lunchroom story was concocted at some point late 11/22 in order to get Mr Oswald away from that front entrance----------and to explain away the man encountered walking away from the stairway halfway up the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 14, 2021, 02:22:18 PM
The question is: where did Mr Oswald dispose of his empty coke bottle?

If he went back up to the second floor lunchroom to put it in the empties crate, at a time several minutes after the assassination when "everybody was walking and milling and so forth" in the office area, could this have been the time he and Ms Reid had their real encounter?

In 2013 Mr Buell Wesley Frazier told the late Mr Gary Mack that, some 5 or 10 minutes after the shooting, he saw Mr Oswald walking south by the Houston St side of the Depository and then crossing Houston & then Elm before disappearing from sight. Mr Frazier was emphatic that Mr Oswald could not have exited via the front entrance but must have done so via the back dock.

If he's correct about all this, and if my surmise about the true timing of the Reid encounter is correct, we get the following:

1. Mr Oswald buys Coke in lunchroom
2. Mr Oswald goes down to one to eat
3. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch the P. Parade, and is on the front steps at the time of the shooting
4. Mr Oswald----seconds later----has an exchange by the front door with Officer Baker (before Mr Truly comes up)----Officer Baker is asking him "Do you work here?" because he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs
5. Mr Oswald----some minutes later----goes back up to two to leave his empty Coke bottle in the crate (and is noticed on his way there by Ms Reid, who speaks briefly with him)
6. Mr Oswald goes back down to one and exits by the rear dock
7. Mr Oswald is seen by Mr Frazier leaving the area

On 11/23 Chief Jesse Curry told reporters that an officer had spotted Mr Oswald in the lunchroom in the presence of several other employees. It is possible therefore that we need add another item to the above timeline:

5a. Officer Baker, on his way back downstairs from the roof with Mr Truly, sticks his head in the lunchroom door and asks Mr Truly, "Do all these people work here?" or somesuch. One of the people in the lunchroom is Mr Oswald, who is there to deposit the empty bottle in the crate.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 14, 2021, 06:52:10 PM
In 2013 Mr Buell Wesley Frazier told the late Mr Gary Mack that, some 5 or 10 minutes after the shooting, he saw Mr Oswald walking south by the Houston St side of the Depository and then crossing Houston & then Elm before disappearing from sight. Mr Frazier was emphatic that Mr Oswald could not have exited via the front entrance but must have done so via the back dock.

If he's correct about all this, and if my surmise about the true timing of the Reid encounter is correct, we get the following:

1. Mr Oswald buys Coke in lunchroom
2. Mr Oswald goes down to one to eat
3. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch the P. Parade, and is on the front steps at the time of the shooting
4. Mr Oswald----seconds later----has an exchange by the front door with Officer Baker (before Mr Truly comes up)----Officer Baker is asking him "Do you work here?" because he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs
5. Mr Oswald----some minutes later----goes back up to two to leave his empty Coke bottle in the crate (and is noticed on his way there by Ms Reid, who speaks briefly with him)
6. Mr Oswald goes back down to one and exits by the rear dock
7. Mr Oswald is seen by Mr Frazier leaving the area

On 11/23 Chief Jesse Curry told reporters that an officer had spotted Mr Oswald in the lunchroom in the presence of several other employees. It is possible therefore that we need add another item to the above timeline:

5a. Officer Baker, on his way back downstairs from the roof with Mr Truly, sticks his head in the lunchroom door and asks Mr Truly, "Do all these people work here?" or somesuch. One of the people in the lunchroom is Mr Oswald, who is there to deposit the empty bottle in the crate.

4. Mr Oswald----seconds later----has an exchange by the front door with Officer Baker (before Mr Truly comes up)----Officer Baker is asking him "Do you work here?" because he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs

I hope you will see that this idea isn't probable.....  Because.... Baker didn't need anybody to direct guide him through the building as he approached the front steps.  He probably expected to find an elevator just inside the door ( which in fact there was ) But he wouldn't have asked for a guide or directions BEFORE he entered the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 14, 2021, 07:27:59 PM
In 2013 Mr Buell Wesley Frazier told the late Mr Gary Mack that, some 5 or 10 minutes after the shooting, he saw Mr Oswald walking south by the Houston St side of the Depository and then crossing Houston & then Elm before disappearing from sight. Mr Frazier was emphatic that Mr Oswald could not have exited via the front entrance but must have done so via the back dock.

If he's correct about all this, and if my surmise about the true timing of the Reid encounter is correct, we get the following:

1. Mr Oswald buys Coke in lunchroom
2. Mr Oswald goes down to one to eat
3. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch the P. Parade, and is on the front steps at the time of the shooting
4. Mr Oswald----seconds later----has an exchange by the front door with Officer Baker (before Mr Truly comes up)----Officer Baker is asking him "Do you work here?" because he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs
5. Mr Oswald----some minutes later----goes back up to two to leave his empty Coke bottle in the crate (and is noticed on his way there by Ms Reid, who speaks briefly with him)
6. Mr Oswald goes back down to one and exits by the rear dock
7. Mr Oswald is seen by Mr Frazier leaving the area

On 11/23 Chief Jesse Curry told reporters that an officer had spotted Mr Oswald in the lunchroom in the presence of several other employees. It is possible therefore that we need add another item to the above timeline:

5a. Officer Baker, on his way back downstairs from the roof with Mr Truly, sticks his head in the lunchroom door and asks Mr Truly, "Do all these people work here?" or somesuch. One of the people in the lunchroom is Mr Oswald, who is there to deposit the empty bottle in the crate.

On 11/23 Chief Jesse Curry told reporters that an officer had spotted Mr Oswald in the lunchroom

Do you have a video of Curry's press briefing ?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 14, 2021, 11:05:50 PM
4. Mr Oswald----seconds later----has an exchange by the front door with Officer Baker (before Mr Truly comes up)----Officer Baker is asking him "Do you work here?" because he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs

I hope you will see that this idea isn't probable.....  Because.... Baker didn't need anybody to direct guide him through the building as he approached the front steps.  He probably expected to find an elevator just inside the door ( which in fact there was ) But he wouldn't have asked for a guide or directions BEFORE he entered the building.

Incorrect!

"As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were." (Officer Baker, affidavit 11/22)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 14, 2021, 11:08:45 PM
On 11/23 Chief Jesse Curry told reporters that an officer had spotted Mr Oswald in the lunchroom

Do you have a video of Curry's press briefing ?

No------he's quoted in the NYT.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 14, 2021, 11:27:14 PM

The lunchroom story was concocted at some point late 11/22 in order to get Mr Oswald away from that front entrance----------and to explain away the man encountered walking away from the stairway halfway up the building.

"The lunchroom story was concocted at some point late 11/22..."

What evidence do you have for this assertion?
(Obviously you have none, you never do)
At least have a guess at who concocted this hoax.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 12:10:51 AM
Incorrect!

"As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were." (Officer Baker, affidavit 11/22)

"As I entered the door"      .... This statement indicates that Baker was INSIDE the building.....There was a large sign with an arrow that pointed to the stairs .....Baker would not have needed to ask "Where's the stairs" or any question like that.

 Mr Oswald----seconds later----has an exchange by the front door with Officer Baker (before Mr Truly comes up)----Officer Baker is asking him "Do you work here?" because he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs

Baker reportedly said ......"I saw several people standing around". If there were "several people standing around why didn't any of them say that they heard Baker ask Lee Oswald any questions....And certainly someone would have reported that they heard Baker asking them for directions.  Do you suppose that Lee Oswald wasn't there and This is nothing but a figment of your imagination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 12:16:46 AM
"As I entered the door"      .... This statement indicates that Baker was INSIDE the building.....

Nope, that would be "After I had entered the door"

Quote
If there were "several people standing around why didn't any of them say that they heard Baker ask Lee Oswald any questions....And certainly someone would have reported that they heard Baker asking them for directions.  Do you suppose that Lee Oswald wasn't there and This is nothing but a figment of your imagination.

Lol, so the contents of Officer Baker's affidavit-------seeing people standing around, asking where the stairs are---------are now a figment of my imagination?

Question for you, Mr Cakebread: how many people, some 30 seconds after the last shot, do you think were "standing around" in the lobby? Can you name a single one?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 01:32:33 AM
Very worth noting!  Thumb1:

But by the same token-----------

If while giving the affidavit Officer Baker sees a man being brought in in handcuffs, and remembers having encountered this heavily guarded suspect at a lunchroom on the second floor shortly after the assassination, why on earth does his affidavit not make mention of this very significant fact?

From Officer Baker's WC testimony:

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Picture the scene, friends: Officer Baker is giving his affidavit. He has one memorable encounter he really needs to tell: the man walking away from the rear stairway on "the third or fourth floor". Why does he need to tell this? Why, because he now----in retrospect----must wonder might this man have been a fleeing assassin after all. The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee.

But! As he is giving the affidavit, a man is brought in-----in handcuffs and heavily guarded.

What happens next?

Scenario A: Officer Baker recognizes the man as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, and------with all the time he has to note this crucial fact------seals the deal by getting this noted in the affidavit he is in the process of giving.

Scenario B: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he checked out in a lunchroom on the second floor. He says to the person taking his affidavit, "This guy's the suspect? Damn, we need to start over."

Scenario C: Officer Baker does not recognize the man from Adam and finishes giving his affidavit, whose central character remains the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor,.

Scenario D: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is duly mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Scenario E: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is NOT mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Which of the above scenarios is consistent with the affidavit as we have it, and which not?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 03:20:03 AM
From Officer Baker's WC testimony:

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Picture the scene, friends: Officer Baker is giving his affidavit. He has one memorable encounter he really needs to tell: the man walking away from the rear stairway on "the third or fourth floor". Why does he need to tell this? Why, because he now----in retrospect----must wonder might this man have been a fleeing assassin after all. The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee.

But! As he is giving the affidavit, a man is brought in-----in handcuffs and heavily guarded.

What happens next?

Scenario A: Officer Baker recognizes the man as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, and------with all the time he has to note this crucial fact------seals the deal by getting this noted in the affidavit he is in the process of giving.

Scenario B: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he checked out in a lunchroom on the second floor. He says to the person taking his affidavit, "This guy's the suspect? Damn, we need to start over."

Scenario C: Officer Baker does not recognize the man from Adam and finishes giving his affidavit, whose central character remains the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor,.

Scenario D: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is duly mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Scenario E: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is NOT mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Which of the above scenarios is consistent with the affidavit as we have it, and which not?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:


Scenario C: Officer Baker does not recognize the man from Adam and finishes giving his affidavit, whose central character remains the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor,.

Read his affidavit...... Does his description of the man fit Lee Oswald?     Does the site of the encounter fit the second floor lunchroom?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 03:32:27 AM
Nope, that would be "After I had entered the door"

Lol, so the contents of Officer Baker's affidavit-------seeing people standing around, asking where the stairs are---------are now a figment of my imagination?

Question for you, Mr Cakebread: how many people, some 30 seconds after the last shot, do you think were "standing around" in the lobby? Can you name a single one?


"After I had entered the door"

I doubt that you believe that Baker "entered the door"   ( Like casper the ghost, .....Went right into the wood of the door)   Any rational person would understand that Baker meant to say.... as I entered the building through the door......
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 05:02:30 PM
From Officer Baker's WC testimony:

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Picture the scene, friends: Officer Baker is giving his affidavit. He has one memorable encounter he really needs to tell: the man walking away from the rear stairway on "the third or fourth floor". Why does he need to tell this? Why, because he now----in retrospect----must wonder might this man have been a fleeing assassin after all. The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee.

But! As he is giving the affidavit, a man is brought in-----in handcuffs and heavily guarded.

What happens next?

Scenario A: Officer Baker recognizes the man as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, and------with all the time he has to note this crucial fact------seals the deal by getting this noted in the affidavit he is in the process of giving.

Scenario B: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he checked out in a lunchroom on the second floor. He says to the person taking his affidavit, "This guy's the suspect? Damn, we need to start over."

Scenario C: Officer Baker does not recognize the man from Adam and finishes giving his affidavit, whose central character remains the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor,.

Scenario D: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is duly mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Scenario E: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is NOT mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Which of the above scenarios is consistent with the affidavit as we have it, and which not?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:

The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee. 

Excellent observation.....I like this observation, Mr Ford...  But I think the word "proves" is a bit strong.   

The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves could indicate that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee.  I think your right and Baker was definitely recalling to his minds eye the description of the man that he suspected, and the location where he had seen that "dark haired, 165 pound man who was wearing a light brown (tan or khaki ) jacket.

Since Baker wrote his affidavit several hours after the fleeting encounter he could easily have been mistaken about which floor
it was where he had seen the man furtively trying to avoid being seen. We know that Baker couldn't have seen the fugitive on the third or fourth floor because there were many people on those floors who would have seen and such activity.....I believe that Baker saw the man on the fifth floor, and Jack Dougherty was also there but Baker didn't see Dougherty, who had ducked out of sight.       
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 07:21:29 PM
From Officer Baker's WC testimony:

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Picture the scene, friends: Officer Baker is giving his affidavit. He has one memorable encounter he really needs to tell: the man walking away from the rear stairway on "the third or fourth floor". Why does he need to tell this? Why, because he now----in retrospect----must wonder might this man have been a fleeing assassin after all. The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee.

But! As he is giving the affidavit, a man is brought in-----in handcuffs and heavily guarded.

What happens next?

Scenario A: Officer Baker recognizes the man as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, and------with all the time he has to note this crucial fact------seals the deal by getting this noted in the affidavit he is in the process of giving.

Scenario B: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he checked out in a lunchroom on the second floor. He says to the person taking his affidavit, "This guy's the suspect? Damn, we need to start over."

Scenario C: Officer Baker does not recognize the man from Adam and finishes giving his affidavit, whose central character remains the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor,.

Scenario D: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is duly mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Scenario E: Officer Baker recognizes the man, not as the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor, but as a man he encountered fleetingly at the front entrance as he was running into the building. He tells this to the person taking his affidavit, and this encounter is NOT mentioned in the (continued or fresh) affidavit.

Which of the above scenarios is consistent with the affidavit as we have it, and which not?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)

Could you post Baker's complete affidavit .......  I believe this is the affidavit that is a blatant attempt to purge the coke issue from the record.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 07:42:17 PM

Scenario C: Officer Baker does not recognize the man from Adam and finishes giving his affidavit, whose central character remains the man he caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor,.

Read his affidavit...... Does his description of the man fit Lee Oswald?     Does the site of the encounter fit the second floor lunchroom?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/88/CoBOPUWV_o.jpg)

Agreed! Scenario C is one of the scenarios compatible with the affidavit Officer Baker signs his name to.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 07:44:11 PM

"After I had entered the door"

I doubt that you believe that Baker "entered the door"   ( Like casper the ghost, .....Went right into the wood of the door)   Any rational person would understand that Baker meant to say.... as I entered the building through the door......

The operative word still being................."as"

Again I have to ask: how many people would have been "standing around" in front lobby some 30 seconds after the last shot? Who could they possibly have been?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 15, 2021, 07:45:33 PM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

MARRION BAKER AFFIDAVIT

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Mary Rattan
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 07:48:32 PM
The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee. 

Excellent observation.....I like this observation, Mr Ford...  But I think the word "proves" is a bit strong.   

The fact that he describes the man's physical appearance at the end of his affidavit proves could indicate that he now worries that this was no ordinary innocent employee.

I see where you're coming from, Mr Cakebread, but I used the word "proves" because I can think of no other logical reason why Officer Baker would close his affidavit by returning to the man by the rear stairway.

Quote
I think your right and Baker was definitely recalling to his minds eye the description of the man that he suspected, and the location where he had seen that "dark haired, 165 pound man who was wearing a light brown (tan or khaki ) jacket.

Since Baker wrote his affidavit several hours after the fleeting encounter he could easily have been mistaken about which floor
it was where he had seen the man furtively trying to avoid being seen. We know that Baker couldn't have seen the fugitive on the third or fourth floor because there were many people on those floors who would have seen and such activity.....

Who on the third floor would have seen them?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 07:57:18 PM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

MARRION BAKER AFFIDAVIT

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around.

Exactly-------he doesn't say "Just after I entered I saw" or anything like that. He uses the word "as".  Thumb1:

Quote
I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor

Exactly!  Thumb1:

Quote
I saw a man walking away from the stairway.

Exactly!  Thumb1:

Quote
I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Exactly!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 15, 2021, 08:27:02 PM
I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm. Sarcasm can be seen as saying something that  is completely the opposite of what you actually mean as a way to emphasise what you actually mean. To clarify - I'm not actually asking you to believe that Oswald is out front with all his work colleagues interacting in a positive way with them as if he was a really sociable, easy-going guy. I'm actually saying the opposite thing. I honestly thought this would be totally clear as the whole post up to that moment was a litany of testimonial evidence demonstrating how Oswald was perceived as, for want of a better word, unsociable. Statement after statement clearly demonstrating (or so I thought) that Oswald didn't like the company of his work colleagues. As I thought it was blindingly obvious, in the light of the substantial amount of evidence on display, that Oswald would rather blow his own brains out than spend time with his work colleagues, I made up a non-existent, sarcastic scenario to emphasise this point. (when I say "blow his own brains out" this is not sarcasm, this is a 'figure of speech' and is not to be taken literally).
The addition of William Shelley in this scenario was an extrapolation made from Oswald's supposed testimony as recorded in Fritz's notes where he specifically singles out William Shelley - "out with Bill Shelley in front"
The bit at the end where I say "Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink" is also sarcasm. I'll keep it to a minimum if future.

"Where do you get "contempt"?"

If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

"Or he was just a shy introvert"

You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.
Oswald in an antisocial, arrogant loser.

"Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink" is also sarcasm.
>> Kinda, sorta... maybe more like 'bitter irony'

'Aside from that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 15, 2021, 08:31:50 PM
Exactly-------he doesn't say "Just after I entered I saw" or anything like that. He uses the word "as".  Thumb1:

Exactly!  Thumb1:

Exactly!  Thumb1:

Exactly!  Thumb1:

I didn't post the affidavit in support of any particular POV
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 09:39:54 PM
I didn't post the affidavit in support of any particular POV

Never-the-less....Baker's affidavit DOES support a certain POV.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 09:44:48 PM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

MARRION BAKER AFFIDAVIT

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Mary Rattan
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

As I entered.....   Would that be future.....present or past   ??   

Future....As I was about to enter....

Present....As I was entering

Past......As I entered
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2021, 09:52:50 PM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

MARRION BAKER AFFIDAVIT

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Mary Rattan
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were.

There was a sign in the foyer at the bottom of the stairs, with an arrow that pointed to the stairs..... Those stairs only went to the second floor....But How did Baker know that?...And HOW did Truly know that Baker wanted to go to the roof of the TSBD.  ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 10:44:39 PM
I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were.

There was a sign in the foyer at the bottom of the stairs, with an arrow that pointed to the stairs..... Those stairs only went to the second floor....But How did Baker know that?...And HOW did Truly know that Baker wanted to go to the roof of the TSBD.  ???

It's really very simple..........................

The afternoon of the assassination, four stories are being told:
-----------Mr Oswald visited the second floor lunchroom before the P. Parade, then went down to the first floor and then went out to watch the P. Parade
-----------Just after the shooting, Mr Oswald was stopped by an officer at the front entrance of the building but cleared by the building manager
-----------Just after the shooting, Mr Oswald was seen in a (small) storage room on the first floor
-----------Officer Baker encountered a man walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor

No one is talking about a lunchroom encounter----------because it hasn't been invented yet.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 15, 2021, 10:57:59 PM

No one is talking about a lunchroom encounter----------because it hasn't been invented yet.

When is it invented and who invents it?
Who is involved in this fake hoax you keep waffling on about?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2021, 11:07:53 PM
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


Who on earth were these two white men?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 15, 2021, 11:13:05 PM
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


Who on earth were these two white men?

Come on Alan. You're constantly waffling on about the made up lunchroom encounter.

Who made it up?
When did they make it up?
Who was involved?

If you don't have a clue just say so.
That will suffice as an answer.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 16, 2021, 12:41:00 AM
Otis Neville Williams FBI statement March 19 1964, suggests he was “momentarily” remaining standing at the front entrance ( next to Pauline Sanders) just after hearing 3 shots. He then went back into the building and up to his 2nd floor office.

So not only is Williams a good candidate for being in the front lobby within 30 secs post shots, but his reference to Mrs Sanders is a supporting argument that Sarah Stanton DID move away from Pauline Sanders to some other location, which as Mr.Ford has posited is possibly the steps just east of the center handrail, an Stanton is  the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised shading the face.

The other candidate IDK , because Molina did NOT see Baker and Molina states only seeing Truly go IN to the building which implies Molina is still OUTSIDE.

Mr. Campbell possibly might have returned before Baker buts it’s unlikely imo, as Campbell ran to the GK and I think in the Couch film background as Couch camera pans towards the GK , a man with hat and suit on is seen running Right hand side past the Stemmons freeway sign.

It’s definitely NOT Mr. Shelley and Billy Lovelady, as they are walking away in from the steps as Baker is seen in Couch film running to the TSBD entrance steps

Doubtful that BW Frazier was the 2nd man now INSIDE and in the frint foyer , because surely even fuzzy memory Frazier would have remembered Truly and Baker in that case.

I noticed in reading the 3 FBI statements from Otis Neville Williams that the March 19/64 one seems to include an FBI “deniability” clause specifically about NOT seeing Oswald. However, after  this “do not recall” clause, Williams curiously  states  that he MAY have seen Oswald in the TSBD but is basically unsure what the EXACT day it was!?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 16, 2021, 12:51:08 AM
Stanton is  the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised shading the face.

 :D

The man in the white shirt shielding his eyes on top of the TSBD front steps is Joe Molina.

"Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.
Mr. MOLINA. Yes."


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 16, 2021, 01:36:12 AM
Fluffy white shirt person”  phrase is all that I can take credit for :)

Mr. Ford is the one who proposed this location on the front steps for Sarah Stanton, in response to my question where is Sarah Stanton if PM is now considered to be Oswald?

As for Molina, if Williams and Sanders are to his left, then does not that place Molina on the top level landing rather than several steps down?

Fluffy white shirt person is short enough to be Stanton imo, but the forearms somewhat questionable if they are “flabby” enough to belong to the fat lady.





Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 05:30:11 AM
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


Who on earth were these two white men?

Alan, I've reread the "second floor lunchroom" tale in the W.R. ( pages 149-156) and there certainly seems to be major problems with Baker's story....  Particularly with his tale of spotting Lee walking east in the small vestibule which was at the west end of the lunchroom.   That vestibule was so small ( about 4 feet across) that it could be traversed with about two normal steps....  Baker said that he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking across the vestibule so he walked across the area at the top of the stairs to the west door into the lunch room and saw the man (Lee Oswald) walking toward the rear ( east end) of the lunchroom, and ordered him to "come here".   Problem.....If Lee was a fleeing killer he could easily have exited out the north door (which was just a couple of feet east of the Coke machine) of the lunchroom,  before Baker could have crossed the second floor landing....

The distance from the door at the west end of the lunchroom to the door just east of the coke machine was about 12 feet, while the distance from the top of the stairs to the door at the west end of the lunchroom was about 25 feet and Baker had to open the vestibule door .   

Bottom line:... In reality, If Lee had been a fleeing assassin and there was any validity to the tale....Lee wouldn't have been in that lunchroom....  He would have exited the lunchroom through the north door, before Baker could have reached the Vestibule door.

It appears that you may be onto a major flaw in the official tale....  Can you post some of the info from the WR...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 07:04:04 AM
Otis Neville Williams FBI statement March 19 1964, suggests he was “momentarily” remaining standing at the front entrance ( next to Pauline Sanders) just after hearing 3 shots. He then went back into the building and up to his 2nd floor office.

So not only is Williams a good candidate for being in the front lobby within 30 secs post shots, but his reference to Mrs Sanders is a supporting argument that Sarah Stanton DID move away from Pauline Sanders to some other location, which as Mr.Ford has posited is possibly the steps just east of the center handrail, an Stanton is  the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised shading the face.

The other candidate IDK , because Molina did NOT see Baker and Molina states only seeing Truly go IN to the building which implies Molina is still OUTSIDE.

Mr. Campbell possibly might have returned before Baker buts it’s unlikely imo, as Campbell ran to the GK and I think in the Couch film background as Couch camera pans towards the GK , a man with hat and suit on is seen running Right hand side past the Stemmons freeway sign.

It’s definitely NOT Mr. Shelley and Billy Lovelady, as they are walking away in from the steps as Baker is seen in Couch film running to the TSBD entrance steps

Doubtful that BW Frazier was the 2nd man now INSIDE and in the frint foyer , because surely even fuzzy memory Frazier would have remembered Truly and Baker in that case.

I noticed in reading the 3 FBI statements from Otis Neville Williams that the March 19/64 one seems to include an FBI “deniability” clause specifically about NOT seeing Oswald. However, after  this “do not recall” clause, Williams curiously  states  that he MAY have seen Oswald in the TSBD but is basically unsure what the EXACT day it was!?

Thank you for these thoughts, Mr Mason.  Thumb1:

The key phrases in Officer Baker's account, one feels, are "several people" and "standing around". This describes the landing @~30secs post-shooting, not the lobby IMO.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 07:21:30 AM
Alan, I've reread the "second floor lunchroom" tale in the W.R. ( pages 149-156) and there certainly seems to be major problems with Baker's story....  Particularly with his tale of spotting Lee walking east in the small vestibule which was at the west end of the lunchroom.   That vestibule was so small ( about 4 feet across) that it could be traversed with about two normal steps....  Baker said that he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking across the vestibule so he walked across the area at the top of the stairs to the west door into the lunch room and saw the man (Lee Oswald) walking toward the rear ( east end) of the lunchroom, and ordered him to "come here".   Problem.....If Lee was a fleeing killer he could easily have exited out the north door (which was just a couple of feet east of the Coke machine) of the lunchroom,  before Baker could have crossed the second floor landing....

The distance from the door at the west end of the lunchroom to the door just east of the coke machine was about 12 feet, while the distance from the top of the stairs to the door at the west end of the lunchroom was about 25 feet and Baker had to open the vestibule door .   

Bottom line:... In reality, If Lee had been a fleeing assassin and there was any validity to the tale....Lee wouldn't have been in that lunchroom....  He would have exited the lunchroom through the north door, before Baker could have reached the Vestibule door.

It appears that you may be onto a major flaw in the official tale....  Can you post some of the info from the WR...

Both Officer Baker and Mr Truly are all over the place in their accounts.

But again, Mr Cakebread, I think the core issue is much simpler---------------

---> Officer Baker confronting a man walking away from the stairway a number of floors up the building makes sense; his turning that man loose constitutes a MAJOR error of judgment.

---> Officer Baker confronting a man he has spotted behind a closed door by a lunchroom a mere one floor up makes no sense; but at least turning that man loose would amount to no more than an unfortunate but completely understandable judgment call (a lot more understandable in fact than his having bothered to go after him in the first place!).

The whole point of the invented lunchroom story is to explain away two real encounters (one Oswaldian, one non-Oswaldian), both disastrous to the Oswald-Did-It accusation, by merging them into a single Oswaldian encounter located in a place that both
---------------a) makes it possible, with a little finessing of timelines etc, to convince folks that Mr Oswald could have done the dread deed on six
---------------b) saves Officer Baker (and by extension the DPD) from utter embarrassment (incl. NB! culpability in the death of Officer Tippit).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 07:24:01 AM
Fluffy white shirt person”  phrase is all that I can take credit for :)

Mr. Ford is the one who proposed this location on the front steps for Sarah Stanton, in response to my question where is Sarah Stanton if PM is now considered to be Oswald?

As for Molina, if Williams and Sanders are to his left, then does not that place Molina on the top level landing rather than several steps down?

Fluffy white shirt person is short enough to be Stanton imo, but the forearms somewhat questionable if they are “flabby” enough to belong to the fat lady.

NB! Mr Lovelady, in interview with Mr Dom Bonafede, pointed out in Altgens 6 a lady who worked on the second floor. And Ms Stanton is the only second-floor female employee on those steps he ever mentions elsewhere.

Re. the arms: as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, the photograph we have of Ms Stanton with her son shows that her forearms were not fat. No reason the figure in Altgens can't be her!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 07:44:42 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/07/qYcWKeUO_o.jpg)

It is theoretically possible that this encounter happened after Officer Baker and Mr Truly returned to the first floor.

We actually have Alyea footage of the pair from that timeframe-----------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/62/35/wrIZHtqq_o.jpg)

They are not far here from one of two storage rooms on the first floor.

Incidentally, the Alyea footage rather throws into question Officer Baker's account of his movements after descending to the first floor with Mr Truly..........

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?
Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out.


Perhaps he had a reason for 'misremembering' this phase of his Depository adventure?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 08:18:18 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/07/qYcWKeUO_o.jpg)

It is theoretically possible that this encounter happened after Officer Baker and Mr Truly returned to the first floor.

However! We also have this, from the New York Herald Tribune 11/23--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b9/7a/WHJ6THII_o.jpg)

Unlike Mr Kent Biffle's DMN report, this gives us a direct quotation from Mr Campbell.

WE raced BACK into the building: Officer Baker didn't race BACK into the building....... this must therefore refer to Depository people (at least two, one of whom being Mr Campbell).

Did Mr Biffle conflate two different Oswald encounters, one involving Officer Baker and Mr Truly, the other involving Mr Campbell and someone else (= perhaps Ms Jeraldean Reid, the person who said she was with Mr Campbell and Mr Truly watching the parade-------and who, per Ms Karen Scranton's account, talked of Mr Oswald's having come to "the door"----of the storage room?----when people were milling and walking and so forth and her having told him someone had shot the President...?)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 16, 2021, 11:07:46 AM

The whole point of the invented lunchroom story is to explain away two real encounters

 ;D

Here you are again, waffling on about the invented lunchroom story as if it's a real thing.

Who invented it?
When did they invent it?
Who is involved in it?

(just make something up)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 16, 2021, 11:10:15 AM

As for Molina, if Williams and Sanders are to his left, then does not that place Molina on the top level landing rather than several steps down?


Molina is stood on the top step/landing area.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 16, 2021, 11:14:50 AM
Alan, I've reread the "second floor lunchroom" tale in the W.R. ( pages 149-156) and there certainly seems to be major problems with Baker's story....  Particularly with his tale of spotting Lee walking east in the small vestibule which was at the west end of the lunchroom.   That vestibule was so small ( about 4 feet across) that it could be traversed with about two normal steps....  Baker said that he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking across the vestibule so he walked across the area at the top of the stairs to the west door into the lunch room and saw the man (Lee Oswald) walking toward the rear ( east end) of the lunchroom, and ordered him to "come here".   Problem.....If Lee was a fleeing killer he could easily have exited out the north door (which was just a couple of feet east of the Coke machine) of the lunchroom,  before Baker could have crossed the second floor landing....

The distance from the door at the west end of the lunchroom to the door just east of the coke machine was about 12 feet, while the distance from the top of the stairs to the door at the west end of the lunchroom was about 25 feet and Baker had to open the vestibule door .   

Bottom line:... In reality, If Lee had been a fleeing assassin and there was any validity to the tale....Lee wouldn't have been in that lunchroom....  He would have exited the lunchroom through the north door, before Baker could have reached the Vestibule door.

It appears that you may be onto a major flaw in the official tale....  Can you post some of the info from the WR...

We know the encounter didn't take place on the fourth floor. Dorothy Garner prevents that.
What about the third floor?

(https://i.postimg.cc/GppDHdv4/3rd-floor-plan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Look in the top left hand corner.
The gap between the stairs and the elevators is about 15ft. Can the encounter described by Baker have taken place in this tiny space?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 03:19:38 PM
We know the encounter didn't take place on the fourth floor. Dorothy Garner prevents that.
What about the third floor?

(https://i.postimg.cc/GppDHdv4/3rd-floor-plan.jpg)

Look in the top left hand corner.
The gap between the stairs and the elevators is about 15ft. Can the encounter described by Baker have taken place in this tiny space?

The one where the new Mr Doyle shows he doesn't understand the difference between the UP stairs and the DOWN stairs!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 03:29:02 PM
We know the encounter didn't take place on the fourth floor. Dorothy Garner prevents that.
What about the third floor?

(https://i.postimg.cc/GppDHdv4/3rd-floor-plan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Look in the top left hand corner.
The gap between the stairs and the elevators is about 15ft. Can the encounter described by Baker have taken place in this tiny space?

(https://i.postimg.cc/GppDHdv4/3rd-floor-plan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Thanks for posting the plat of the third floor....The viewer can see that Baker could not have seen a man whom he said was in front of the elevators, and  walking away from the stairs.   The wall of the room blocked his view of the area in front of the elevators.....   And if the man had been in the small area at the top of the stairs Baker wouldn't have need to call out to him and order him to "Come here".   The Plat you've posted precludes  and rules out the 3rd floor...and There were many people on the fourth floor...so Baker had to have been referring to the fifth floor as the site where he saw the "dark haired, 165 pound man," who was wearing a light brown ( khaki colored) jacket.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 16, 2021, 04:50:37 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/GppDHdv4/3rd-floor-plan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Thanks for posting the plat of the third floor....The viewer can see that Baker could not have seen a man whom he said was in front of the elevators, and  walking away from the stairs.   The wall of the room blocked his view of the area in front of the elevators.....   And if the man had been in the small area at the top of the stairs Baker wouldn't have need to call out to him and order him to "Come here".   The Plat you've posted precludes  and rules out the 3rd floor...and There were many people on the fourth floor...so Baker had to have been referring to the fifth floor as the site where he saw the "dark haired, 165 pound man," who was wearing a light brown ( khaki colored) jacket.

It seems clear Baker was simply mistaken about which floor the encounter happened on. The fact he's not sure if it was three or four says it all. As we can see it didn't happen on three or four.
Yet another problem for Mr Ford and his fake Hoax   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 05:49:37 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/GppDHdv4/3rd-floor-plan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Thanks for posting the plat of the third floor....The viewer can see that Baker could not have seen a man whom he said was in front of the elevators, and  walking away from the stairs.

Where does Officer Baker say the man was in front of the elevators?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 05:58:35 PM
It seems clear Baker was simply mistaken about which floor the encounter happened on. The fact he's not sure if it was three or four says it all. As we can see it didn't happen on three or four.
Yet another problem for Mr Ford and his fake Hoax   Thumb1:

Another contrived 'problem', lol.

Here's the area:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)

Kindly explain to us---------having finally mastered the difference between the UP and the DOWN stairs :D --------how the event described as follows in Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit could not have happened here:

"As we reached the (...) floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me."

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 16, 2021, 06:56:06 PM
Another contrived 'problem', lol.

Here's the area:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)

Kindly explain to us---------having finally mastered the difference between the UP and the DOWN stairs :D --------how the event described as follows in Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit could not have happened here:

"As we reached the (...) floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me."

 Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YS5wrs3v/Screenshot-15.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Truly and Baker come up the stairs to the left (running north to south). At the top of the stairs there is a door just to the left.
They pass through this door into a very small space and have to turn left. At this point the stairs going up are about 12 ft in front of them to the left. At this point they can see anyone near the stairs. It takes about three large steps to find themselves with the stairs going up to their left and a short "hall" to the elevators to their right. This "hall" is about 13 ft long and can be covered in three large strides.
When Baker reaches this point and sees a man walking away from him in this tiny space he could almost reach out and grab him. He most certainly wouldn't need to shout to call him back as they are stood in virtually the same space. Baker could reach the man in one large stride so the idea of Baker calling out to a man walking away from the stairs seems a bit silly.
The big problem is Truly who is running ahead of Baker. Truly would need to push this man out of the way to continue upstairs but doesn't seem to have noticed him at all.
The space is far too small for the encounter to have taken place. This is obvious.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 07:08:08 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/YS5wrs3v/Screenshot-15.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Truly and Baker come up the stairs to the left (running north to south). At the top of the stairs there is a door just to the left.
They pass through this door into a very small space and have to turn left. At this point the stairs going up are about 12 ft in front of them to the left. At this point they can see anyone near the stairs.

How do you know Officer Baker can't have seen anyone at a point before this?

Quote
It takes about three large steps to find themselves with the stairs going up to their left and a short "hall" to the elevators to their right. This "hall" is about 13 ft long and can be covered in three large strides.
When Baker reaches this point and sees a man walking away from him

Again-----------how do you know Officer Baker can't have seen someone before he reaches this point?

Quote
in this tiny space he could almost reach out and grab him. He most certainly wouldn't need to shout to call him back as they are stood in virtually the same space. Baker could reach the man in one large stride so the idea of Baker calling out to a man walking away from the stairs seems a bit silly.
The big problem is Truly who is running ahead of Baker.

Where in Officer Baker's affidavit does it say the building manager is ahead of him as they take the stairs?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 07:33:31 PM
How do you know Officer Baker can't have seen anyone at a point before this?

Again-----------how do you know Officer Baker can't have seen someone before he reaches this point?

Where in Officer Baker's affidavit does it say the building manager is ahead of him as they take the stairs?

After viewing the diagram of the third floor it's very clear that Baker could NOT have been referring to the third floor as the place where he saw the dark haired, 165 pound man, who was wearing a light brown jacket.   It appears that there was a divided ( split) swinging door which would have prevented Baker from seeing the area on the south side of the elevators. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 07:59:09 PM
Nope--------that's just the icon for a normal door.

No ....That icon indicates a spilt swinging door ,(a saloon type door)  The LAV had a common single door....Notice the symbol  for that door.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 08:20:22 PM
~Sigh~

Nope--------just a normal door icon. Cf the icons for the not-at-all-saloon-type doors leading off the second floor landing to the lunchroom:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/e7/15/RjmRf2PD_o.jpg)

This is NOT the diagram that shows the door in the hall was a spilt type swinging door......

(https://images2.imgbox.com/e7/15/RjmRf2PD_o.jpg)

The original diagram indicates that the door was a spilt "saloon door"......  And it doesn't indicate any wall in which a single door was installed
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 08:36:35 PM
NOTE TO MR CAKEBREAD: I have deleted my most recent posts, as they were founded on a misunderstanding of the door(s) you meant!

Now! Why on earth does seeing south of the elevators have to be the only way Officer Baker could have seen the man "walking away from the stairway"?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 09:49:11 PM
NOTE TO MR CAKEBREAD: I have deleted my most recent posts, as they were founded on a misunderstanding of the door(s) you meant!

Now! Why on earth does seeing south of the elevators have to be the only way Officer Baker could have seen the man "walking away from the stairway"?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)

Are you serious?    Baker said that as he reached the stairway exit on either the third or fourth floor he saw a man walking away from the stairs and he called out to the man..."Come Here"...  Do you think he would have called out to the dark haired 165 pound man if that man was about six feet away from him?    Or possibly you believe that Baker had X-ray vision and could see right through the wall that block the line of sight between the top of the stairs and the south side of the elevators.

PS..... Wasn't the gate for the west elevator on the west side of the rectangle?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 10:00:49 PM
Are you serious?    Baker said that as he reached the stairway exit on either the third or fourth floor he saw a man walking away from the stairs and he called out to the man..."Come Here"...

No, he said: "As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me." You need to stop reading into those words what you want them to mean.

Quote
Do you think he would have called out to the dark haired 165 pound man if that man was about six feet away from him?    Or possibly you believe that Baker had X-ray vision and could see right through the wall that block the line of sight between the top of the stairs and the south side of the elevators.

Which stairway was the man walking away from when Officer Baker saw him?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2021, 10:12:52 PM
No, he said: "As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me." You need to stop reading into those words what you want them to mean.

Which stairway was the man walking away from when Officer Baker saw him?

Why are you asking such a stupid question?  There was only one stairway on the third floor..... And obviously if the diagram is correct, then Baker could NOT have been referring to the THIRD floor   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 16, 2021, 10:15:16 PM
Why are you asking such a stupid question?  There was only one stairway on the third floor..... And obviously if the diagram is correct, then Baker could NOT have been referring to the THIRD floor

Incorrect. There was a DOWN stairway and an UP stairway. Which one does Officer Baker say he saw the man walking away from?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 17, 2021, 02:03:57 AM
NOTE TO MR CAKEBREAD: I have deleted my most recent posts, as they were founded on a misunderstanding of the door(s) you meant!

Now! Why on earth does seeing south of the elevators have to be the only way Officer Baker could have seen the man "walking away from the stairway"?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)

It clearly didn't happen on the third floor Alan.
The space is too small.
Why would Baker have to call out to someone he could have leaned over and touched.
How could Oswald be described as coming back towards Baker when it would have taken two strides.
It doesn't make any sense.
Baker was mistaken, his statement displays this uncertainty, he was unfamiliar with the building and full of adrenaline. The only reason he mentions the encounter is because it's the only thing of any significance that happens during his "search" of the TSBD.

There is no invented hoax. You can't provide one scrap of evidence that it exists. But that won't stop you waffling on about it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2021, 02:34:11 AM
Incorrect. There was a DOWN stairway and an UP stairway. Which one does Officer Baker say he saw the man walking away from?

LOL!!....  It depends on if a person wanted to go up to the fourth floor or down to the second floor....It's still the same stairway....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 17, 2021, 02:42:40 AM
Incorrect. There was a DOWN stairway and an UP stairway. Which one does Officer Baker say he saw the man walking away from?

 :D :D :D

I hate to point this out Alan as it isn't really relevant to the current debate, but it's possible to go up and down the same set of stairs.
It's a special feature of stairs.
It must be mind-blowing to learn Truly and Baker were running up the "down" stairs.
 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 05:50:19 AM
It clearly didn't happen on the third floor Alan.
The space is too small.
Why would Baker have to call out to someone he could have leaned over and touched.

Lol, you still haven't explained how you magically know exactly where Officer Baker's affidavit description-------"As we reached the (...) floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway"-------places him and the man at the moment Officer Baker first sees him:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)

Quote
How could Oswald be described as coming back towards Baker when it would have taken two strides.

Oswald? Who said anything about Mr Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 06:00:34 AM
:D :D :D

I hate to point this out Alan as it isn't really relevant to the current debate, but it's possible to go up and down the same set of stairs.
It's a special feature of stairs.
It must be mind-blowing to learn Truly and Baker were running up the "down" stairs.
 Thumb1:

As non-rookies will have understood, I was using the received nomenclature......

(https://images2.imgbox.com/74/30/U75uqbMV_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 17, 2021, 12:18:59 PM
Lol, you still haven't explained how you magically know exactly where Officer Baker's affidavit description-------"As we reached the (...) floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway"-------places him and the man at the moment Officer Baker first sees him:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/42/42/1E3rpzLh_o.jpg)


It is you and you're made up hoax that wants the encounter anywhere other than the second floor lunchroom.
It's you insisting it took place on either the third or fourth floor (notice how vague this is, as if Baker couldn't recall properly)
We know it didn't take place on the fourth floor (Dorothy Garner)
So it's you insisting this encounter takes place on the third floor.
So why don't you tell us where this man was who Baker reported encountering in the TSBD.

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2WXjzYy/3rd-floor-corner.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Is the man at the top of the stairs (where DN) is?
Is the man on the other side of the door near the top of the stairs? (Where it says "Hall")
Is the man walking towards the "Up" stairs?

Where's it gonna be Alan?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 02:08:35 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2WXjzYy/3rd-floor-corner.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Is the man at the top of the stairs (where DN) is?

Yes, that's possible.

Quote
Is the man on the other side of the door near the top of the stairs? (Where it says "Hall")

Yes, that's possible.

Quote
Is the man walking towards the "Up" stairs?

How about *away* from them?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 17, 2021, 04:06:03 PM
Yes, that's possible.

Yes, that's possible.

How about *away* from them?

You mean away from the Up stairs towards the elevators?
Exactly as I have been talking about all along?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2021, 04:41:23 PM
It clearly didn't happen on the third floor Alan.
The space is too small.
Why would Baker have to call out to someone he could have leaned over and touched.
How could Oswald be described as coming back towards Baker when it would have taken two strides.
It doesn't make any sense.
Baker was mistaken, his statement displays this uncertainty, he was unfamiliar with the building and full of adrenaline. The only reason he mentions the encounter is because it's the only thing of any significance that happens during his "search" of the TSBD.

There is no invented hoax. You can't provide one scrap of evidence that it exists. But that won't stop you waffling on about it.

Baker was mistaken, his statement displays this uncertainty, he was unfamiliar with the building and full of adrenaline. The only reason he mentions the encounter is because it's the only thing of any significance that happens during his "search" of the TSBD.


I believe you're right Dan, ol man. Bakr did not encounter a man on either the 3rd or  4th floor....   However as you've pointed out, Baker DID in fact encounter a "DARK HAIRED,"---"  165 POUND"  man, who was wearing a "LIGHT BROWN JACKET"  and that man was walking away from the stairs in a dimly lit area near the elevators.....( yes, Baker did say that the area was dimly lit)   I believe the only floor Baker could have been referring to was the 5th floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2021, 05:17:18 PM
It is you and you're made up hoax that wants the encounter anywhere other than the second floor lunchroom.
It's you insisting it took place on either the third or fourth floor (notice how vague this is, as if Baker couldn't recall properly)
We know it didn't take place on the fourth floor (Dorothy Garner)
So it's you insisting this encounter takes place on the third floor.
So why don't you tell us where this man was who Baker reported encountering in the TSBD.

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2WXjzYy/3rd-floor-corner.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Is the man at the top of the stairs (where DN) is?
Is the man on the other side of the door near the top of the stairs? (Where it says "Hall")
Is the man walking towards the "Up" stairs?

Where's it gonna be Alan?

 anywhere other than the second floor lunchroom.


I don't believe there is any real doubt that Baker and Truly, did in fact encounter Lee Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom.  BUT Baker and Truly also encountered another man near the stairs as they were on their way to the roof.   Baker said that Truly vouched for this DARK HAIRED , 165 POUND,  who was wearing a LIGHT BROWN JACKET.   and told Baker that the man was an employee.   IF in fact the man was an employee .....There is a high probability that the man was Jack Dougherty.  BUT since Baker's description doesn't fit Jack Dougherty then Truly was lying and the man was not an employee.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 07:06:37 PM
You mean away from the Up stairs towards the elevators?

Yes.

Quote
Exactly as I have been talking about all along?

No--------you (rather absurdly) tried to place Officer Baker at a spot where he only has to lean forward to touch the man.

So that gives us at least three ways in which Officer Baker could have seen "a man walking away from the stairway" on the third floor. What else you got, Mr O'Meara?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 07:11:17 PM
Baker was mistaken, his statement displays this uncertainty, he was unfamiliar with the building and full of adrenaline. The only reason he mentions the encounter is because it's the only thing of any significance that happens during his "search" of the TSBD.


I believe you're right Dan, ol man. Bakr did not encounter a man on either the 3rd or  4th floor....

Actually the 3rd floor is perfectly possible. The 4th floor is not impossible.

Quote
However as you've pointed out, Baker DID in fact encounter a "DARK HAIRED,"---"  165 POUND"  man, who was wearing a "LIGHT BROWN JACKET"  and that man was walking away from the stairs in a dimly lit area near the elevators.....( yes, Baker did say that the area was dimly lit)   I believe the only floor Baker could have been referring to was the 5th floor.

And the 5th floor is possible too.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 17, 2021, 08:35:49 PM
Yes.

No--------you (rather absurdly) tried to place Officer Baker at a spot where he only has to lean forward to touch the man.

So that gives us at least three ways in which Officer Baker could have seen "a man walking away from the stairway" on the third floor. What else you got, Mr O'Meara?

I opened this particular conversation with a diagram of the third floor and these words:

"The gap between the stairs and the elevators is about 15ft. Can the encounter described by Baker have taken place in this tiny space?"

From the beginning the conversation has been about the small space between the "Up" stairs and the elevators but because you live in a fantasy dream-world you don't seem to have grasped this fundamental point.
Just to get you up to speed - the argument is that this space is too small for the encounter Baker describes in his affidavit. Even though there is barely any detail in the affidavit there is enough to rule out the tiny space on the third floor as the setting for the encounter.
When Baker "calls out" to the man it implies there is the kind of distance involved where someone would have to raise their voice to be heard clearly. In the tiny space between the stairs and the elevator Baker and the man would be a few feet apart. No need to call out.
The same applies to the detail that the man "turned around and came back toward me." This also implies a distance greater than a few feet.
The space between the Up stairs and the elevators is too small for the encounter described by Baker.
It didn't happen on the fourth floor because Dorothy Garner would've noticed it.
And it didn't happen on the fifth as Williams, Norman and Jarman would've mentioned it.

We're running out of places for it to have happened.
Maybe it happened on the second floor but Baker made a mistake in his vague recollection (3rd or 4th) of which floor it was.
A simple mistake from someone recalling events from a building he was unfamiliar with, pistol drawn, adrenaline fuelled, etc.

What didn't happen was some invisible, unknown person concocting the worst hoax in the history of hoaxing.

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2021, 09:18:04 PM
I opened this particular conversation with a diagram of the third floor and these words:

"The gap between the stairs and the elevators is about 15ft. Can the encounter described by Baker have taken place in this tiny space?"

From the beginning the conversation has been about the small space between the "Up" stairs and the elevators but because you live in a fantasy dream-world you don't seem to have grasped this fundamental point.
Just to get you up to speed - the argument is that this space is too small for the encounter Baker describes in his affidavit. Even though there is barely any detail in the affidavit there is enough to rule out the tiny space on the third floor as the setting for the encounter.
When Baker "calls out" to the man it implies there is the kind of distance involved where someone would have to raise their voice to be heard clearly. In the tiny space between the stairs and the elevator Baker and the man would be a few feet apart. No need to call out.
The same applies to the detail that the man "turned around and came back toward me." This also implies a distance greater than a few feet.
The space between the Up stairs and the elevators is too small for the encounter described by Baker.
It didn't happen on the fourth floor because Dorothy Garner would've noticed it.
And it didn't happen on the fifth as Williams, Norman and Jarman would've mentioned it.

We're running out of places for it to have happened.
Maybe it happened on the second floor but Baker made a mistake in his vague recollection (3rd or 4th) of which floor it was.
A simple mistake from someone recalling events from a building he was unfamiliar with, pistol drawn, adrenaline fuelled, etc.

What didn't happen was some invisible, unknown person concocting the worst hoax in the history of hoaxing.

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:

Even though there is barely any detail in the affidavit there is enough to rule out the tiny space on the third floor as the setting for the encounter.

True.....But there are a few more details in the testimony of Baker....

it didn't happen on the fifth as Williams, Norman and Jarman would've mentioned it.

That's an assumption ....But not necessarily true.   The three stooges attention was riveted on the railroad yard, and the incident was only a few seconds in duration....

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 09:20:26 PM
I opened this particular conversation with a diagram of the third floor and these words:

"The gap between the stairs and the elevators is about 15ft. Can the encounter described by Baker have taken place in this tiny space?"

From the beginning the conversation has been about the small space between the "Up" stairs and the elevators

No, that's been merely your side of the conversation. You're not exactly noted for your listening skills.

Quote
but because you live in a fantasy dream-world you don't seem to have grasped this fundamental point.
Just to get you up to speed - the argument is that this space is too small for the encounter Baker describes in his affidavit. Even though there is barely any detail in the affidavit there is enough to rule out the tiny space on the third floor as the setting for the encounter.
When Baker "calls out" to the man

Incorrect----"called to"

Quote
it implies there is the kind of distance involved where someone would have to raise their voice to be heard clearly.

Huh? When Officer Baker says he saw a man walking away from the stairway and called to him it implies he saw a man walking away from the stairway and called to him. No more and no less. If you want to insist on a football field between them, knock yourself out.

What's amusing here, Mr O'Meara, is that your contrived objections to the third floor are set against the background of your ridiculously (ahem) creative harmonization of the affidavit with the lunchroom encounter story. The reason you're losing this debate is that you have to resort to strained interpretation; I on the other hand don't.

Debating you is as easy as debating a LNer. (There may be a reason for that.)

Quote
In the tiny space between the stairs and the elevator Baker and the man would be a few feet apart.

Again, why must Officer Baker necessarily be himself in front of the UP stairs at the moment he calls out? And even if he is, so what?

To repeat: we still have at least three points from which Officer Baker could have seen "a man walking away from the stairway".  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 09:28:35 PM

it didn't happen on the fifth as Williams, Norman and Jarman would've mentioned it.

That's an assumption ....But not necessarily true.   The three stooges attention was riveted on the railroad yard, and the incident was only a few seconds in duration....

But don't you understand, Mr Cakebread? Mr O'Meara has proved beyond any (of Mr O'Meara's) doubt that Officer Baker didn't just call to the man-----------he let out a barbaric YAWP!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 17, 2021, 09:41:40 PM
The reason you're losing this debate is that you have to resort to strained interpretation; I on the other hand don't.

 :D :D :D

Why should you rely on any kind of interpretation when you've got pure fantasy at your fingertips.

But even your fantastical imagination can't come up with anyone who might have created the hoax you constantly waffle on about.
Who created it? When? Who was involved?

[just make something up. you usually do]  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 09:46:25 PM
:D :D :D

Why should you rely on any kind of interpretation when you've got pure fantasy at your fingertips.

But even your fantastical imagination can't come up with anyone who might have created the hoax you constantly waffle on about.
Who created it? When? Who was involved?

[just make something up. you usually do]  Thumb1:

~Grin~ The one where Mr O'Meara realizes his contrived case against the third floor has collapsed in on top of him
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 09:53:38 PM
(...) Baker and Truly also encountered another man near the stairs as they were on their way to the roof.   Baker said that Truly vouched for this DARK HAIRED , 165 POUND,  who was wearing a LIGHT BROWN JACKET.   and told Baker that the man was an employee.   IF in fact the man was an employee .....There is a high probability that the man was Jack Dougherty.  BUT since Baker's description doesn't fit Jack Dougherty then Truly was lying and the man was not an employee.....

AND we have very good reason to believe he was the same man seen running from the building shortly afterwards (as described in a 9 Jan '64 FBI internal memo about the true source of the suspect description put out by DPD shortly after the shooting)------------------

"An unidentified individual told Inspector SAWYER that he had seen an individual run from the TSBD building shortly after the shooting of President KENNEDY and that this individual was an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, 5'10", 165 pounds, carrying what looked to be a 30:30 or some type of Winchester rifle."

Officer Baker screwed up BIG-time in turning the man loose. And Mr Truly has--------------to put it mildly--------------questions to answer
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 17, 2021, 10:33:50 PM
It's human nature to dismiss one's own employees as being a murderer, especially since Truly apparently liked Oswald who had another kid on the way, was a good worker. and didn't bother anybody. Baker was a motorcycle cop, not a detective, who would be more likely detain anybody coming down the stairs immediately post shots.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
It's human nature to dismiss one's own employees as being a murderer, especially since Truly apparently liked Oswald who had another kid on the way, was a good worker. and didn't bother anybody. Baker was a motorcycle cop, not a detective, who would be more likely detain anybody coming down the stairs immediately post shots.

Oswald? Who said anything about Mr Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 11:31:07 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f7/2a/ObErnt9B_o.jpg)

CLAIM: Officer Baker, having seen an indeterminate movement behind the window of this closed door just one floor up the building, recalls it thus: "As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway."

SANE REACTION TO CLAIM:  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2021, 11:34:27 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f7/2a/ObErnt9B_o.jpg)

CLAIM: Officer Baker, seeing an indeterminate movement behind the window of this closed door just one floor up in the building whose roof he urgently wants to get up to, thinks to himself: "This might be the shooter."

SANE REACTION TO CLAIM:  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 18, 2021, 01:45:08 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f7/2a/ObErnt9B_o.jpg)

CLAIM: Officer Baker, seeing an indeterminate movement behind the window of this closed door just one floor up in the building whose roof he urgently wants to get up to, thinks to himself: "This might be the shooter."

SANE REACTION TO CLAIM:  :D

SANE REACTION TO CLAIM:  :D 

LOL!

(https://images2.imgbox.com/f7/2a/ObErnt9B_o.jpg)

And WHO would describe a man walking across a 4 foot wide vestibule as "walking away from the stairs??   Only a nut would describe the scene in that manner....   The major problem with that scenario is....If Lee had just entered the vestibule, the door wouldn't have had time to close....So Baker should have seen Lee through the open door.... Baker was a damned liar!

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 18, 2021, 11:02:28 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f7/2a/ObErnt9B_o.jpg)

CLAIM: Officer Baker, seeing an indeterminate movement behind the window of this closed door just one floor up in the building whose roof he urgently wants to get up to, thinks to himself: "This might be the shooter."

SANE REACTION TO CLAIM:  :D

Poor old Alan.
Let's put you out of your misery.
The following is an excerpt from Roy Truly's affidavit given on the day after the assassination:

"The officer and I went through the
shipping dept to the freight elevator. We then
started up the stair way. We hit the
second floor landing, the officer stuck his head
into the lunch room area where there
are coke and candy machines. Lee
Oswald was in there. The officer had his
gun on Oswald. And asked me if he was an
employee. I answered yes. We then went
up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

In your "analysis" you like to forget Truly was also present don't you.
Oh dear...

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 18, 2021, 02:57:43 PM
Poor old Alan.
Let's put you out of your misery.
The following is an excerpt from Roy Truly's affidavit given on the day after the assassination:

"The officer and I went through the
shipping dept to the freight elevator. We then
started up the stair way. We hit the
second floor landing, the officer stuck his head
into the lunch room area where there
are coke and candy machines. Lee
Oswald was in there. The officer had his
gun on Oswald. And asked me if he was an
employee. I answered yes. We then went
up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

In your "analysis" you like to forget Truly was also present don't you.
Oh dear...

The officer had his gun on Oswald. And asked me if he was an employee. I answered yes. We then went
up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

We then went up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

Notice that Truly said nothing about stopping on "either the third or fourth floor" , but he did say they continued their climb up the stairs to the FIFTH FLOOR.

I believe the fifth floor is the site where Baker spotted a man trying to avoid being seen who was walking away from the stairs, near the elevators in a dimly lit room.   

There is another part of the story that I've always had trouble accepting as true.    I doubt that Baker and Truly ran across the shipping room on the first floor and yelled for the elevator to be released.    Eddie Piper was right there on the first floor at the coffee pot, which was not far from the elevators and he said nothing in his affidavit about witnessing any such activity.   

In his Warren Commission cover up committe testimony he did say that he saw a similar event but he described Baker who was dressed in the uniform of a motorcycle officer with a large white helmet as " either a police officer or an FBI man" 

It's highly unlikely that Piper would describe a motor cycle cop as an FBI man......  I believe Piper was recalling the so called re-enactment when he thought that Baker might have been an FBI man.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 18, 2021, 08:30:48 PM
The officer had his gun on Oswald. And asked me if he was an employee. I answered yes. We then went
up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

We then went up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

Notice that Truly said nothing about stopping on "either the third or fourth floor" , but he did say they continued their climb up the stairs to the FIFTH FLOOR.

I believe the fifth floor is the site where Baker spotted a man trying to avoid being seen who was walking away from the stairs, near the elevators in a dimly lit room.   

There is another part of the story that I've always had trouble accepting as true.    I doubt that Baker and Truly ran across the shipping room on the first floor and yelled for the elevator to be released.    Eddie Piper was right there on the first floor at the coffee pot, which was not far from the elevators and he said nothing in his affidavit about witnessing any such activity.   

In his Warren Commission cover up committe testimony he did say that he saw a similar event but he described Baker who was dressed in the uniform of a motorcycle officer with a large white helmet as " either a police officer or an FBI man" 

It's highly unlikely that Piper would describe a motor cycle cop as an FBI man......  I believe Piper was recalling the so called re-enactment when he thought that Baker might have been an FBI man.

I have been employed as janitor for the Texas School book Depository for a little over 4 years. I do the packing of the books as well as lock up at night. I came to work yesterday about 10:00 AM and I worked until 2:00 PM. There has been a man that I know only as "Lee" who has been working there about 5 weeks. He fills the orders and I pack the orders. Yesterday at about 12:00 Noon, this fello Lee says to me, "I'm going up to eat" and I went on to my lunch. I went to the front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass and heard some shots and looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:55PM. The shots seemed to me like they came from up inside the building. It was about 1:00 PM when the police made us vacate the building and as we were being checked out, I noticed that "Lee" wasn't with us and I mentioned to some of the employees there checking out that Lee wasn't there and somebody said, he must have already gone out. This man Lee has never talked much to anyone and hardly said anything to me. He kept pretty much to himself and hardly even answer when I would say "Goodmorning".

/s/Eddie Piper

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this th 23rd day of November A.D. 1963


Notice that Piper says nothing about seeing a large motorcycle officer running through the 1st floor shipping room.   Could Piper have failed to notice Baker who had on a shiny white motorcycle helmet, and was yelling for an elevator to be turned loose???

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 18, 2021, 09:39:14 PM
Poor old Alan.
Let's put you out of your misery.
The following is an excerpt from Roy Truly's affidavit given on the day after the assassination:

"The officer and I went through the
shipping dept to the freight elevator. We then
started up the stair way. We hit the
second floor landing, the officer stuck his head
into the lunch room area where there
are coke and candy machines. Lee
Oswald was in there. The officer had his
gun on Oswald. And asked me if he was an
employee. I answered yes. We then went
up the stairs to the 5th floor..."

In your "analysis" you like to forget Truly was also present don't you.
Oh dear...

 :D

The one where Mr O'Meara tries to refute the idea that Witness X is lying by giving us a quote from------Witness X

Good enough for the LNers, I guess
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 19, 2021, 12:19:35 AM
:D

The one where Mr O'Meara tries to refute the idea that Witness X is lying by giving us a quote from------Witness X

Good enough for the LNers, I guess

Truly gave this affidavit the day after the assassination.
This affidavit contains the second floor lunchroom encounter.
Are you really suggesting your fake Hoax is in place that quickly?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 12:29:53 AM
Truly gave this affidavit the day after the assassination.
This affidavit contains the second floor lunchroom encounter.
Are you really suggesting your fake Hoax is in place that quickly?

~Yawn~

The one where Mr O'Meara plays dumb and pretends he never read Reply #876
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 19, 2021, 01:24:28 AM
~Yawn~

The one where Mr O'Meara plays dumb and pretends he never read Reply #876

Oh yeah, this gem:

"The lunchroom story was concocted at some point late 11/22 in order to get Mr Oswald away from that front entrance----------and to explain away the man encountered walking away from the stairway halfway up the building."

So, as I understand it, the boys from the DPD sat around into the late hours of the 22nd wondering how they could get Oswald away from the front entrance and explain away the encounter with the man on the 3rd/4th floor and it never occurred to them to simply say the man on the 3rd/4th floor was Oswald.
Oh no, rather than do something so straight-forward they decided to move the encounter down a floor or two (making it almost impossible for Oswald to get down there in time for the encounter).
Now why would they do that?
Why wouldn't they simply say the man Baker encountered on the 3rd/4th floor was Oswald?
Help me to understand Alan.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 19, 2021, 01:44:48 AM
Oh yeah, what about the report of officer Marvin Johnson, one of DPD's finest:

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book depository."

So, let me get this straight...
The DPD have concocted this story to get Oswald away from the front entrance and to explain the man Baker saw on the 3rd/4th floor.
They do this by creating a whole new scenario set in the second floor lunchroom, moving Oswald further away from the 6th floor.
Then Johnson, a DPD officer, reports Baker identified the man he saw on the 4th floor as Oswald.

What's going on here Alan?
What kind of Hoax is this?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 01:58:52 AM
Oh yeah, what about the report of officer Marvin Johnson, one of DPD's finest:

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book depository."

So, let me get this straight...
The DPD have concocted this story to get Oswald away from the front entrance and to explain the man Baker saw on the 3rd/4th floor.


They do this by creating a whole new scenario set in the second floor lunchroom, moving Oswald further away from the 6th floor.
Then Johnson, a DPD officer, reports Baker identified the man he saw on the 4th floor as Oswald.

What's going on here Alan?
What kind of Hoax is this?

Although I vehemently disagree with Mr Ford about the fabrication of the lunchroom encounter, I believe we should thank him for opening the door for discussion about Baker's affidavit.    We have determined that Baker could NOT have been referring to either the 3rd or 4th floor as the place where he encountered a suspicious acting  man who was NOT Lee Oswald.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 09:22:43 AM
Oh yeah, this gem:

"The lunchroom story was concocted at some point late 11/22 in order to get Mr Oswald away from that front entrance----------and to explain away the man encountered walking away from the stairway halfway up the building."

So, as I understand it, the boys from the DPD

That's it, Mr O'Meara, put yet more words in my mouth!

Quote
sat around into the late hours of the 22nd wondering how they could get Oswald away from the front entrance and explain away the encounter with the man on the 3rd/4th floor and it never occurred to them to simply say the man on the 3rd/4th floor was Oswald.

Too risky---------the 'investigating' authorities knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting. What if a photograph turns up clearly showing this? What if one of the witnesses speaks the truth to the press? What if Mr Oswald proves the fact in court? The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first.

And then there's the professional & insitutional embarrassment factor: having let a man in a second floor lunchroom go is a whole lot less embarrassing than having let a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 09:27:16 AM
Oh yeah, what about the report of officer Marvin Johnson, one of DPD's finest:

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book depository."

If you weren't a fanatical member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, Mr O'Meara, you would allow your eye to be caught by the number 4.

Earlier in that report, we find the words "On about the 4th floor (...)". Could be fourth....... could be third........ could be fifth...... certainly not just one floor up.

Yet another nail in the coffin of the ridiculous lunchroom story! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 09:28:33 AM
Although I vehemently disagree with Mr Ford about the fabrication of the lunchroom encounter, I believe we should thank him for opening the door for discussion about Baker's affidavit.    We have determined that Baker could NOT have been referring to either the 3rd or 4th floor as the place where he encountered a suspicious acting  man who was NOT Lee Oswald.   

Actually we have determined nothing of the sort, Mr Cakebread. Perfectly possible this happened on the third floor, and not impossible it happened on the fourth.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 19, 2021, 12:11:52 PM
That's it, Mr O'Meara, put yet more words in my mouth!

Well, excuse me Alan.
let's refer to this bunch of made up people as the "investigating authorities".
Obviously, there is no team of people creating this fake Hoax but I wouldn't want to be seen labelling this imaginary group incorrectly.
(I assume some elements of the DPD are in your imaginary group, maybe you'll let us all know at some point, but for now let's stick with "investigating authorities"  Thumb1:)

Quote
Too risky---------the 'investigating' authorities knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting. What if a photograph turns up clearly showing this? What if one of the witnesses speaks the truth to the press? What if Mr Oswald proves the fact in court? The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first.

Brilliant  ;D
Fantasia Ford in full flow.
Just a note for readers unfamiliar with your work - everything above is completely made up, based on zero evidence yet presented as fact.
I have to confess Alan, I'm slightly jealous of the freedom you have to move so easily between the realms of fact and fantasy. It leaves me in the unenviable role of the Killjoy.

"...the 'investigating' authorities knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting."

In the real world we can't actually know this. Not one of the many potential witnesses who knew Oswald by sight and would have seen him standing on the steps has placed him there. Not one of the "investigating authorities" has ever placed him there. Even Oswald has never placed himself there (although in multiple instances he has placed himself in the TSBD at the time of the shooting)

"The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first."

Those unfamiliar with the 'bendy' logic of Mr Ford will be saying to themselves, "Surely the 3rd floor is the best way to hedge your bets, midway between both points. And that way you don't have to create this ridiculous Hoax with all it's complexity and unlikeliness, dragging in scores of people to prop up this insanity. Just say the man on the 3rd floor is Oswald."
To be honest, as long as he leaves the scene before Truly and Baker it can be any floor you want. Why not have it on the 6th floor? Baker made an honest mistake in his affidavit, it wasn't the third or fourth floor, it was the 6th floor. Baker sees Oswald moving away from the southeast corner, asks Truly who that man is, Truly says he's an employee, Lee Harvey Oswald. Boom - Oswald witnessed at the scene of the crime.
Why move the encounter further away from the 6th floor?
Because if Oswald is spotted at the front entrance the 2nd floor is closer than the 3rd??
Have a little think about the logic you're using here Alan.

Quote
And then there's the professional & insitutional embarrassment factor: having let a man in a second floor lunchroom go is a whole lot less embarrassing than having let a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up.

If there's anyone out there who can unravel the logic of this statement please get in touch.  ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 19, 2021, 12:30:53 PM
If you weren't a fanatical member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, Mr O'Meara, you would allow your eye to be caught by the number 4.

Even Oswald is a member of this team, stating on film he was in the TSBD at the time of the shooting.

Quote
Earlier in that report, we find the words "On about the 4th floor (...)". Could be fourth....... could be third........ could be fifth...... certainly not just one floor up.

I quoted directly from the report.

You seemed to have missed the point Alan.
In your fantasy world the "investigating authorities" (which, I assume, involved elements of the DPD. Unless, of course, you've gone all out and the "investigating authorities", as far as you are concerned, are comprised solely of X-Men)... I've lost my train of thought...
Oh yeah,
You are making up that the "investigating authorities" have created and are implementing the Hoax by the 23rd. It's being fed to the media that an encounter took place in the second floor lunchroom. The point of this Hoax is to get Oswald away from the front entrance and explain away the mystery man on the 3rd/4th floor.
Then along comes Marvin Johnson on the 26th filing a report in which he states that Baker has already identified the mystery man on the 3rd/4th floor as Oswald!!
On the 22nd, the day of the assassination, just hours after the event, Baker identified the mystery man in the TSBD as Oswald. So there was no mystery man, it was Oswald all along.
The people making up the Hoax are destroying the Hoax at the same time.

What's going on Alan?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 03:26:26 PM
That's it, Mr O'Meara, put yet more words in my mouth!

Too risky---------the 'investigating' authorities knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting. What if a photograph turns up clearly showing this? What if one of the witnesses speaks the truth to the press? What if Mr Oswald proves the fact in court? The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first.

And then there's the professional & insitutional embarrassment factor: having let a man in a second floor lunchroom go is a whole lot less embarrassing than having let a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up.

the 'investigating'  authorities ( conspirators and those who were railroading Lee Oswald) )  knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting.

NOTHING in the evidence even hints or suggests that Captain Fritz ( the Conductor on the railroad) or any other  law enforcement officer believed that Lee was on the front steps at the time of the shooting. ( Lee told them that he was on the first floor eating his lunch at that time)   

having let a man in a second floor lunchroom go is a whole lot less embarrassing than having let a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up.

This is nothing but a"monday morning quarterback"  spewing...... At the time that Baker encountered the DARK HAIRED , 165 POUND, man who was wearing a LIGHT BROWN JACKET he was looking for the culprit who he believed had fired shots from the roof of the TSBD.  He had no idea that JFK or anybody had been hit.  ( As a MOF  Baker said he saw people rolling around on the ground down at the GK as he dismounted from his bike.  I believe that he thought that those people might have been hit)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 06:17:52 PM
That's it, Mr O'Meara, put yet more words in my mouth!

Too risky---------the 'investigating' authorities knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting. What if a photograph turns up clearly showing this? What if one of the witnesses speaks the truth to the press? What if Mr Oswald proves the fact in court? The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first.

And then there's the professional & insitutional embarrassment factor: having let a man in a second floor lunchroom go is a whole lot less embarrassing than having let a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up.

The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first.

Actually Mr Ford, I strongly doubt the official tale about Truly leading Baker across the first floor and stopping at the elevators and yelling for the elevator to be released.    I believe Baker went immediately up the stairs to the second floor, and Truly caught up to him at the swinging door at the entrance to the 2nd floor office area.

Of course this would have been less than a minute after the shooting and the lunchroom encounter with Lee Oswalt would have been about a minute after the shooting , and of course the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald could not have descended from the sixth floor to the lunchroom in just one minute.    Thus they made up the story about Baker and Truly dashing across the first floor to the elevators.

And I believe this is the reason that Baker thought he was on "either the third or fourth floor" when he spotted a suspicious acting man walking away from the stairs.....  Baker had forgotten that he had already ascended to the second floor by way of the stairs inside the front door of the TSBD at the SE corner of the building.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 06:29:00 PM
Actually we have determined nothing of the sort, Mr Cakebread. Perfectly possible this happened on the third floor, and not impossible it happened on the fourth.

Actually we have determined nothing of the sort, Mr Cakebread.

Actually "WE" ( All rational and clear thinking people) have determined that Baker could not have been describing either the third or fourth floor as the place where he and Truly encountered a man who did NOT fit the description of Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 06:40:01 PM
Those unfamiliar with the 'bendy' logic of Mr Ford will be saying to themselves, "Surely the 3rd floor is the best way to hedge your bets, midway between both points. And that way you don't have to create this ridiculous Hoax with all it's

*its*

Quote
complexity and unlikeliness, dragging in scores of people to prop up this insanity. Just say the man on the 3rd floor is Oswald."

Glad to see you now accept that the words "I saw a man walking away from the stairway" do after all work for the third floor!  Thumb1:

Quote
To be honest, as long as he leaves the scene before Truly and Baker it can be any floor you want.

Ah, but the 'investigating' authorities know full well by now that Mr Oswald wasn't just on the front steps at the time of the shooting but had an interaction with Officer Baker at that front entrance. Why, DPD have been telling the world about it!

So the third floor won't work--------Officer Baker and Mr Truly are the ones with the head start, see? How would you get from Mr Oswald at the front entrance to Mr Oswald walking away from the stairway on a floor that Officer Baker and Mr Truly are themselves only just reaching?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 06:44:56 PM
Even Oswald is a member of this team, stating on film he was in the TSBD at the time of the shooting.

~Grin~ You're still in complete denial about this-------

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

Quote
You seemed to have missed the point Alan.
In your fantasy world the "investigating authorities" (which, I assume, involved elements of the DPD. Unless, of course, you've gone all out and the "investigating authorities", as far as you are concerned, are comprised solely of X-Men)... I've lost my train of thought...

You ok, Mr O'Meara?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 06:46:45 PM
the 'investigating'  authorities ( conspirators and those who were railroading Lee Oswald) )  knew full well by now that Mr Oswald had been on the front steps at the time of the shooting.

NOTHING in the evidence even hints or suggests that Captain Fritz ( the Conductor on the railroad) or any other  law enforcement officer believed that Lee was on the front steps at the time of the shooting. ( Lee told them that he was on the first floor eating his lunch at that time)

~Yawn~

Nope: Mr Oswald told them he "went outside to watch P. Parade".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 06:48:50 PM
The lunchroom story is the only way of hedging bets-------------a location to which Mr Oswald could (at least notionally) have descended from the sixth floor or ascended from the first.

Actually Mr Ford, I strongly doubt the official tale about Truly leading Baker across the first floor and stopping at the elevators and yelling for the elevator to be released.    I believe Baker went immediately up the stairs to the second floor, and Truly caught up to him at the swinging door at the entrance to the 2nd floor office area.

Of course this would have been less than a minute after the shooting and the lunchroom encounter with Lee Oswalt would have been about a minute after the shooting , and of course the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald could not have descended from the sixth floor to the lunchroom in just one minute.    Thus they made up the story about Baker and Truly dashing across the first floor to the elevators.

And I believe this is the reason that Baker thought he was on "either the third or fourth floor" when he spotted a suspicious acting man walking away from the stairs.....  Baker had forgotten that he had already ascended to the second floor by way of the stairs inside the front door of the TSBD at the SE corner of the building.

Tortured logic, Mr Cakebread!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 06:50:15 PM
Actually we have determined nothing of the sort, Mr Cakebread.

Actually "WE" ( All rational and clear thinking people) have determined that Baker could not have been describing either the third or fourth floor as the place where he and Truly encountered a man who did NOT fit the description of Lee Oswald.

Nope-----poor Mr O'Meara just got all excited until it was pointed out to him he had confused the UP and the DOWN stairs
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 06:51:37 PM
*its*

Glad to see you now accept that the words "I saw a man walking away from the stairway" do after all work for the third floor!  Thumb1:

Ah, but the 'investigating' authorities know full well by now that Mr Oswald wasn't just on the front steps at the time of the shooting but had an interaction with Officer Baker at that front entrance. Why, DPD have been telling the world about it!

So the third floor won't work--------Officer Baker and Mr Truly are the ones with the head start, see? How would you get from Mr Oswald at the front entrance to Mr Oswald walking away from the stairway on a floor that Officer Baker and Mr Truly are themselves only just reaching?

Question for Mr Ford....If Lee had been at the front door at the time of the shooting that would have provided him with an airtight alibi.   When Captain Fritz asked him where he was at the time the President was shot ( That's what Fritz claimed that he asked Lee) Lee would simply have said Well Cap,  I was standing on the front steps of the TSBD at that time, and a DPD Motorcycle officer can vouch for me....Because he asked me if I worked in the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 06:55:50 PM
Question for Mr Ford....If Lee had been at the front door at the time of the shooting that would have provided him with an airtight alibi.   When Captain Fritz asked him where he was at the time the President was shot ( That's what Fritz claimed that he asked Lee) Lee would simply have said Well Cap,  I was standing on the front steps of the TSBD at that time, and a DPD Motorcycle officer can vouch for me....Because he asked me if I worked in the building.

And that's just what Mr Oswald did tell him. And DPD were happy to tell the press about that front entrance encounter------------until they realized just how soon after the shooting Officer Baker had run up those front steps
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 07:12:56 PM
And that's just what Mr Oswald did tell him. And DPD were happy to tell the press about that front entrance encounter------------until they realized just how soon after the shooting Officer Baker had run up those front steps

that's just what Mr Oswald did tell him.

Really??.... This is astounding information!....    But I'll need PROOF that Lee said anything like that, so please provide solid proof that Lee told anybody that he was on the front steps at the time the President was shot.    Or simply provide solid PROOF that Lee ever acknowledged that he knew that JFK had been shot? Or that he had heard any shots.... 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 19, 2021, 08:58:46 PM
that's just what Mr Oswald did tell him.

Really??.... This is astounding information!....

Are you a goldfish, Mr Cakebread? See Reply #973
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 09:41:51 PM
Are you a goldfish, Mr Cakebread? See Reply #973
Here's #973... WHERE is the  solid proof that Lee told anybody that he was on the front steps at the time the President was shot.

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2021, 10:50:14 PM
Here's #973... WHERE is the  solid proof that Lee told anybody that he was on the front steps at the time the President was shot.

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

Lee told the interrogators that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom eating lunch , at the time the P. parade passed in front of the TSBD.  Then AFTER he finished eating he said he went outside.   -----  The Parade was over....And I believe there are photos of Lee standing around outside on the stub street in front of the TSBD.

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 02:57:13 PM
Friends, there are now two main opposing narratives:

1------------Mr Oswald corroborated the post-assassination second floor lunchroom encounter (as claimed in the LATER interrogation reports)
2------------Mr Oswald, far from corroborating the encounter, said he visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, then went down to one, then "went outside to watch P. Parade" (the EARLIEST interrogation report: Agent Hosty's handwritten draft)

My argument is simply this: once one does NOT assume that Mr Oswald (per #2 above) is lying, then things fall into place:

--------the suppression of Agent Hosty's draft report
--------the evolution of the story in subsequent reports
--------the 11/22 DPD statements about a front entrance encounter
--------the impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman
--------the appearance of an arm + bottle in the version of Altgens 6 that Mr Walter Cronkite showed that evening
--------Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit description of a man caught walking away from the stairway on "the third or fourth floor"
--------the glaring problems with the lunchroom story
--------the notable fact that not a single credible alternative candidate has been found for Prayer Person
--------and much else besides.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 20, 2021, 04:12:09 PM
Friends, there are now two main opposing narratives:

1------------Mr Oswald corroborated the post-assassination second floor lunchroom encounter (as claimed in the LATER interrogation reports)
2------------Mr Oswald, far from corroborating the encounter, said he visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, then went down to one, then "went outside to watch P. Parade" (the EARLIEST interrogation report: Agent Hosty's handwritten draft)

My argument is simply this: once one does NOT assume that Mr Oswald (per #2 above) is lying, then things fall into place:

--------the suppression of Agent Hosty's draft report
--------the evolution of the story in subsequent reports
--------the 11/22 DPD statements about a front entrance encounter
--------the impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman
--------the appearance of an arm + bottle in the version of Altgens 6 that Mr Walter Cronkite showed that evening
--------Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit description of a man caught walking away from the stairway on "the third or fourth floor"
--------the glaring problems with the lunchroom story
--------the notable fact that not a single credible alternative candidate has been found for Prayer Person
--------and much else besides.

 Thumb1:

he visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, then went down to one, then "went outside to watch P. Parade"

Mr Ford, you clearly have a reading comprehension problem.

Lee told the lead conspirator, Capt. Fritz that he was eating his lunch on the First floor ( the Domino Room) when he saw James "Junior" Jarman, and Harold Norman pass by the Lunchroom.  Those two employees verified that they had in fact walked by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26.  So they unknowingly corroborated Lee's statement that he was eating his lunch in the FIRST FLOOR LUNCHROOM at 12:26.   Lee told Fritz that while eating his lunch he went to the 2nd floor lunchroom ( about 12:28) to get a Coca Cola from the Coke machine in the second floor lunchroom. While he was there in the second floor lunchroom DPD officer Baker encountered him in that 2nd lunchroom (12:31) After Baker left Lee went back down to the first floor lunchroom and finished eating his lunch.( 12:35)   He then went outside and stood around for about five minutes and talked to Bill Shelley before leaving to go to his rented room to change his clothes.   

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 04:36:18 PM
he visited the lunchroom before the P. Parade, then went down to one, then "went outside to watch P. Parade"

Mr Ford, you clearly have a reading comprehension problem.

Lee told the lead conspirator, Capt. Fritz that he was eating his lunch on the First floor ( the Domino Room) when he saw James "Junior" Jarman, and Harold Norman pass by the Lunchroom.  Those two employees verified that they had in fact walked by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26.  So they unknowingly corroborated Lee's statement that he was eating his lunch in the FIRST FLOOR LUNCHROOM at 12:26.   Lee told Fritz that while eating his lunch he went to the 2nd floor lunchroom ( about 12:28) to get a Coca Cola from the Coke machine in the second floor lunchroom. While he was there in the second floor lunchroom DPD officer Baker encountered him in that 2nd lunchroom (12:31) After Baker left Lee went back down to the first floor lunchroom and finished eating his lunch.( 12:35)   He then went outside and stood around for about five minutes and talked to Bill Shelley before leaving to go to his rented room to change his clothes.   

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

You have just accompanied your imagined version of events with a document that makes a nonsense of it!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 20, 2021, 07:58:54 PM
You have just accompanied your imagined version of events with a document that makes a nonsense of it!

I'll think you'll find Walt's interpretation of said document is spot on, tying in with other recorded interrogations of Oswald. Something your interpretation doesn't do. Also, Walt's interpretation is independently corroborated by the testimonies of Jarman and Norman.
How is your interpretation corroborated by anything other than your own fertile imagination.

"Then went out to watch P. parade"

It doesn't say he saw the parade, does it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 10:11:33 PM
I'll think you'll find Walt's interpretation of said document is spot on, tying in with other recorded interrogations of Oswald. Something your interpretation doesn't do. Also, Walt's interpretation is independently corroborated by the testimonies of Jarman and Norman.

My, you really aren't very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

Mr Oswald visited the second floor lunchroom, came down to one (during which time he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman), then went outside to watch the P. Parade.

Quote
How is your interpretation corroborated by anything other than your own fertile imagination.

"Then went out

*outside*

Quote
to watch P. parade"[/b]

It doesn't say he saw the parade, does it.

~Grin~ It says he went outside to watch the P. Parade. Your bizarre theory is that he was challenged by a cop at pistol-point in the lunchroom, then had a lady employee in the office area exclaim to him that someone had shot the President, then went down to-------eat lunch (!) and then went out to--------watch the P. Parade!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 20, 2021, 10:37:36 PM
Your bizarre theory is that he was challenged by a cop at pistol-point in the lunchroom, then had a lady employee in the office area exclaim to him that someone had shot the President, then went down to-------eat lunch (!) and then went out to--------watch the P. Parade!  :D

Really Alan?
And would you like to point out where I've ever said anything remotely like that.
Obviously you can't as it's just part of your fantasy world.
Like this Hoax the "investigating authorities" have made up that you don't have a single scrap of evidence for.
Pure fantasy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 10:43:11 PM
Really Alan?
And would you like to point out where I've ever said anything remotely like that.

Which bit of this do you, with your Warren Gullible take on the lunchroom incident and the Ms Reid incident, not believe?-----------

---------Mr Oswald was challenged by a cop at pistol-point in the lunchroom (YES?/NO?)
---------Mr Oswald then had a lady employee in the office area exclaim to him that someone had shot the President (YES?/NO?)
---------Mr Oswald then went down to one to eat lunch (YES?/NO?)
---------Mr Oswald then went out to (as he thought it) watch the P. Parade (YES?/NO?)

Over to you, sir!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 20, 2021, 10:50:19 PM
Which bit of this do you, with your Warren Gullible take on the lunchroom incident and the Ms Reid incident, not believe?-----------

---------Mr Oswald was challenged by a cop at pistol-point in the lunchroom (YES?/NO?)
---------Mr Oswald then had a lady employee in the office area exclaim to him that someone had shot the President (YES?/NO?)
---------Mr Oswald then went down to one to eat lunch (YES?/NO?)
---------Mr Oswald then went out to (as he thought it) watch the P. Parade (YES?/NO?)

Over to you, sir!  Thumb1:

Yes
Yes
No
No
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 10:55:38 PM
Yes
Yes
No
No

Thank you!  Thumb1:

So it turns out that, unlike Mr Cakebread, you believe-----------------

---------Mr Oswald did NOT, after his visit to the second floor lunchroom, go down to one to eat lunch
---------Mr Oswald did NOT then go out to (as he thought it) watch the P. Parade

Question! Do you believe that Mr Oswald did, however, make those claims in that first interrogation?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 20, 2021, 11:00:39 PM
Thank you!  Thumb1:

So it turns out that, unlike Mr Cakebread, you believe-----------------

---------Mr Oswald did NOT, after his visit to the second floor lunchroom, go down to one to eat lunch
---------Mr Oswald did NOT then go out to (as he thought it) watch the P. Parade

Question! Do you believe that Mr Oswald did, however, make those claims in that first interrogation?

Now hold the phone there young Alan.
Let's have a bit of Quid Pro Quo.

Do you believe Marvin Johnson that Baker identified Oswald as the man he encountered in the TSBD ? Yes/No
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 11:06:24 PM
Now hold the phone there young Alan.
Let's have a bit of Quid Pro Quo.

Do you believe Marvin Johnson that Baker identified Oswald as the man he encountered in the TSBD ? Yes/No

If you are referring to the man on "about the fourth floor", then no, he made no such firm identification.

Now! You believe that

---------Mr Oswald did NOT, after his visit to the second floor lunchroom, go down to one to eat lunch
---------Mr Oswald did NOT then go out to (as he thought it) watch the P. Parade

Do you believe that Mr Oswald did, however, make those claims in that first interrogation?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 20, 2021, 11:27:02 PM
If you are referring to the man on "about the fourth floor", then no, he made no such firm identification.

Now! You believe that

---------Mr Oswald did NOT, after his visit to the second floor lunchroom, go down to one to eat lunch
---------Mr Oswald did NOT then go out to (as he thought it) watch the P. Parade

Do you believe that Mr Oswald did, however, make those claims in that first interrogation?

Ok, so you believe Johnson lied in his report on the 26th that Baker made the ID.

Yes, I do believe Oswald made those claims in his first interrogation.

Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton lied about hearing Mrs Reid telling people about her encounter with Oswald (in the Living History interview)?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 20, 2021, 11:35:00 PM
Ok, so you believe Johnson lied in his report on the 26th that Baker made the ID.

Lied, or (less likely) misremembered.

Quote
Yes, I do believe Oswald made those claims in his first interrogation.

Therefore you believe Mr Oswald was lying when he made those claims, yes?

Quote
Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton lied about hearing Mrs Reid telling people about her encounter with Oswald (in the Living History interview)?

You asked me that before, and I answered: no.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 20, 2021, 11:48:27 PM
Lied, or (less likely) misremembered.

You're saying he lied, he mentions it twice in the report even going so far as to link it to Baker getting caught in the same room as Oswald. No chance of misremembering.

Quote
Therefore you believe Mr Oswald was lying when he made those claims, yes?

Of course he was lying about going outside to watch the parade.

Quote
You asked me that before, and I answered: no.

So you believe Mrs Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 12:01:42 AM
You're saying he lied, he mentions it twice in the report even going so far as to link it to Baker getting caught in the same room as Oswald. No chance of misremembering.

Not so. Quite possible that Officer Baker said something along the lines that this man looked familiar but he wasn't sure if he was the guy he'd caught walking away from the stairway, and that Det. Johnson misremembered this very hesitant recollection as a firm one. But---------as I've already indicated----------Det. Johnson probably just lied.

Quote
Of course he was lying about going outside to watch the parade.

Why on earth would he do that?

Quote
So you believe Mrs Reid was telling people about her encounter with Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?

An encounter with Mr Oswald in the (...) aftermath of the assassination? Sure. But, as we've already established, Ms Scranton's recollection of what Ms Reid was telling colleagues does not tally with the story Ms Reid told in her affidavit the next day.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 12:18:34 AM
Not so. Quite possible that Officer Baker said something along the lines that this man looked familiar but he wasn't sure if he was the guy he'd caught walking away from the stairway, and that Det. Johnson misremembered this very hesitant recollection as a firm one. But---------as I've already indicated----------Det. Johnson probably just lied.

Ok, Johnson was part of the Hoax, along with Baker and Truly.

Quote
Why on earth would he do that?

An alibi.

Quote
An encounter with Mr Oswald in the (...) aftermath of the assassination? Sure. But, as we've already established, Ms Scranton's recollection of what Ms Reid was telling colleagues does not tally with the story Ms Reid told in her affidavit the next day.

Nothing of the sort was established. That's a weird thing to say.

Do you believe Oswald's claim of seeing Jarman and Norman (?)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 12:23:25 AM
Ok, Johnson was part of the Hoax, along with Baker and Truly.

No, he was not part of the lunchroom hoax.

Quote
An alibi.

An alibi for what?

Quote
Nothing of the sort was established. That's a weird thing to say.

I suggest you re-read the transcript of what Ms Scranton actually said.

Quote
Do you believe Oswald's claim of seeing Jarman and Norman (?)

Yes. Do you?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2021, 12:36:08 AM
I'll think you'll find Walt's interpretation of said document is spot on, tying in with other recorded interrogations of Oswald. Something your interpretation doesn't do. Also, Walt's interpretation is independently corroborated by the testimonies of Jarman and Norman.
How is your interpretation corroborated by anything other than your own fertile imagination.

"Then went out to watch P. parade"

It doesn't say he saw the parade, does it.

It doesn't say he saw the parade, does it.

No it doesn't...I guess I should have made that point earlier....But it seems so obvious....Simply because Hosty jotted that down does NOT mean that Lee actually said that....IOW..Hosty may have misinterpreted or mis heard what Lee Oswald said.   OR it may be that Lee thought the P. Parade actually  was still passing by....   I'm convinced that he had no clue that shots had been fired and JFK had been hit and killed.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 12:39:53 AM
No, he was not part of the lunchroom hoax.

He lied about Baker identifying Oswald but isn't part of the Hoax....hmmm... you'll have to let me think that over.

Quote
An alibi for what?

His role in the assassination of John F. Kennedy

Quote
I suggest you re-read the transcript of what Ms Scranton actually said.

I suggest you do the same

Quote
Yes. Do you?

You've already had your question.
Do you believe Oswald when he said he was a "Patsy"?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 12:52:36 AM
He lied about Baker identifying Oswald but isn't part of the Hoax....hmmm... you'll have to let me think that over.

Take all the time you need, Mr O'Meara.

Quote
His role in the assassination of John F. Kennedy

Ah. Where do you believe Mr Oswald was at 12.30pm that day?

Quote
You've already had your question.

Your reluctance to answer the question as to whether you believe Mr Oswald did indeed see Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building shortly before the assassination is noted.

Quote
Do you believe Oswald when he said he was a "Patsy"?

I don't know.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2021, 12:54:57 AM
He lied about Baker identifying Oswald but isn't part of the Hoax....hmmm... you'll have to let me think that over.

His role in the assassination of John F. Kennedy

I suggest you do the same

You've already had your question.
Do you believe Oswald when he said he was a "Patsy"?

Do you believe Oswald when he said he was a "Patsy"?

This is an excellent question..... And Yes I believe Lee Knew that he was just a patsy.    BUT It's worth examining.

WHEN did Lee say that?   How much information did he have at the time he made that statement.   Did he know that JFK had been murdered?   Nearly everybody assumes that Lee knew everything that the American public knew, but I don't believe he did.   He was dragged from the theater about 20 minutes after Kronkite announced that President Kennedy had died.   And Lee had not had time to hear any news reports.....   Without any doubt he had heard that shots had been fired at the motorcade but  that's about all he knew....When reporters asked him why he'd been arrested he replied that he was accused of shooting a policeman.....and he knew nothing more than that. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 01:03:54 AM
Take all the time you need, Mr O'Meara.

Will do.
Something seems really fishy that you believe Johnson lied on his official report about Baker identifying Oswald but that this lie wasn't to do with the Hoax. Like Johnson lied about it for no good reason. Doesn't seem right.

Quote
Ah. Where do you believe Mr Oswald was at 12.30pm that day?

Exactly where Oswald places himself - in the TSBD.

Quote
Your reluctance to answer the question as to whether you believe Mr Oswald did indeed see Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building shortly before the assassination is noted.

No reluctance. You were trying to sneak an extra question in and I wasn't having it.
I have no problem answering the question.

Quote
I don't know.

Interesting.
You'll believe a second-hand account of what he says but not the words actually coming out of his mouth.

Do you believe agent Hosty was part of the Hoax?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 01:15:20 AM
Exactly where Oswald places himself - in the TSBD.

Ah, this amusingly evasive response gets us to the heart of the matter, Mr O'Meara. Where in the TSBD do you believe Mr Oswald was at the time of the assassination?

Quote
No reluctance. You were trying to sneak an extra question in and I wasn't having it.
I have no problem answering the question.

~Grin~ Doesn't sound like it. Your second refusal to answer the question of whether Mr Oswald did indeed see Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building shortly before the assassination is noted.

Quote
Do you believe agent Hosty was part of the Hoax?

He never confirmed Mr Oswald's confirmation of the lunchroom incident, but---------after the deep-sixing of his draft interrogation report---------he did go along with the burying of Mr Oswald's actual claims. So he was part of the cover-up but not specifically of the lunchroom hoax.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 01:30:38 AM
Ah, this amusingly evasive response gets us to the heart of the matter, Mr O'Meara. Where in the TSBD do you believe Mr Oswald was at the time of the assassination?

Don't know.

Quote
~Grin~ Doesn't sound like it. Your second refusal to answer the question of whether Mr Oswald did indeed see Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building shortly before the assassination is noted.

If you want to ask the question, ask the question.

Quote
He never confirmed Mr Oswald's confirmation of the lunchroom incident, but---------after the deep-sixing of his draft interrogation report---------he did go along with the burying of Mr Oswald's actual claims. So he was part of the cover-up but not specifically of the lunchroom hoax.

Hmmm...

Do you believe agent Bookhout was part of the Hoax?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 01:43:07 AM
Don't know.

So why do you think he needs to fabricate an alibi by making a false claim about having gone to one to eat lunch and then gone outside to watch the P. Parade?

Quote
Do you believe agent Bookhout was part of the Hoax?

Already answered------no, he was not part of the lunchroom hoax.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 02:06:41 AM
So why do you think he needs to fabricate an alibi by making a false claim about having gone to one to eat lunch and then gone outside to watch the P. Parade?

The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by. This is his first interrogation. He is being questioned about the shooting of the president. The shooting took place from the TSBD. Oswald is the prime suspect for the shooting. His first reaction must be to distance himself from the alleged crime.

Quote
Already answered------no, he was not part of the lunchroom hoax.

So Bookhout's report dated the 25th which contains the full lunchroom encounter is not part of the Hoax.
It must be.
How can you say Bookhout isn't part of the Hoax?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 02:18:09 AM
The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by.

You've just done a 180, Mr O'Meara. Just to be clear: You now accept that Mr Oswald did indeed claim to have been outside at the time of the assassination?

Quote
So Bookhout's report dated the 25th which contains the full lunchroom encounter is not part of the Hoax.
It must be.
How can you say Bookhout isn't part of the Hoax?

I do apologize, Mr O'Meara, I misread your question: yes, Agent Bookhout (author of the lunchroom-fiction solo interrogation report) was indeed a party to the lunchroom hoax.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 02:34:22 AM
You've just done a 180, Mr O'Meara. Just to be clear: You now accept that Mr Oswald did indeed claim to have been outside at the time of the assassination?

Just to be clear Alan.
You asked me this - "Do you believe that Mr Oswald did, however, make those claims in that first interrogation?"
I answered - "Yes, I do believe Oswald made those claims in his first interrogation."

I have not done a 180. I think you might be getting a little tired.

Quote
I do apologize, Mr O'Meara, I misread your question: yes, Agent Bookhout (author of the lunchroom-fiction solo interrogation report) was indeed a party to the lunchroom hoax.

Ok, Bookhout is part of the Hoax but Hosty isn't.
Is Fritz part of the Hoax?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 03:03:24 AM
Just to be clear Alan.
You asked me this - "Do you believe that Mr Oswald did, however, make those claims in that first interrogation?"
I answered - "Yes, I do believe Oswald made those claims in his first interrogation."

I have not done a 180. I think you might be getting a little tired.

No, Mr O'Meara, you're projecting.

You had been maintaining steadfastly that Mr Oswald merely claimed to have gone outside to watch what he thought would be the P. Parade, but that he never claimed to have been outside actually watching it. Your position has just shifted, most tellingly. You now accept that Mr Oswald did indeed claim to have been "outside watching the P. Parade" (your words). This admission commits you further to recognition of the fact that Mr Oswald's claim in this regard was not accurately reflected in the officially published interrogation reports, i.e. it was covered up.

Now.... You say you don't know where exactly Mr Oswald was at the time the shots rang out. However, you believe Mr Oswald lied because he needed to create an alibi for his part in the assassination. You also believe he confirmed the post-assassination lunchroom encounter with the officer and Mr Truly.

How exactly does confirming a post-assassination lunchroom encounter with an officer and Mr Truly AND claiming to have reacted to this encounter by (first) going down to eat lunch and (then) going outside and watching the P. Parade (!) serve Mr Oswald's cause of fabricating an alibi?
 
Quote
Ok, Bookhout is part of the Hoax but Hosty isn't.
Is Fritz part of the Hoax?

No, at least not initially. On 12/23/63 Captain Fritz writes a report for Chief Jesse Curry in which he mentions that one of his officers (Officer Baker) "stopped" Mr Oswald "on the third or fourth floor on the stairway". Which indicates that, even at this late stage, he was out of the loop on the details of the lunchroom hoax.

However, he was of course a party to the burying of Mr Oswald's actual claims (though he did slip up when giving his WC testimony).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 03:12:21 AM
"Then went out to watch P. parade"

It doesn't say he saw the parade, does it.

O'Meara Exhibit A
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 03:13:00 AM
The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by.

O'Meara Exhibit B.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 12:33:26 PM


You had been maintaining steadfastly that Mr Oswald merely claimed to have gone outside to watch what he thought would be the P. Parade, but that he never claimed to have been outside actually watching it. Your position has just shifted, most tellingly. You now accept that Mr Oswald did indeed claim to have been "outside watching the P. Parade" (your words). This admission commits you further to recognition of the fact that Mr Oswald's claim in this regard was not accurately reflected in the officially published interrogation reports, i.e. it was covered up.

Calm down Alan. Your flights of fancy are starting to get the better of you and you had been doing so well.
Just to clarify my position on this - I believe Oswald made the claims in Hosty's notes but I do not believe Oswald was being wholly truthful.
This is really simple and not open to the fantastical interpretations you claim I've "been maintaining steadfastly". (Steadfastly?? You really should listen to yourself sometime. It's great)

Quote
Now.... You say you don't know where exactly Mr Oswald was at the time the shots rang out. However, you believe Mr Oswald lied because he needed to create an alibi for his part in the assassination. You also believe he confirmed the post-assassination lunchroom encounter with the officer and Mr Truly.

How exactly does confirming a post-assassination lunchroom encounter with an officer and Mr Truly AND claiming to have reacted to this encounter by (first) going down to eat lunch and (then) going outside and watching the P. Parade (!) serve Mr Oswald's cause of fabricating an alibi?

There is nowhere that Oswald claims to have had the encounter with Baker and Truly and to reacted to this by going to eat lunch, then going outside. This is a flight of fancy.
If Oswald's claims are to be taken at face value then he is changing his story. Not an uncommon practice of the guilty.
 
Quote
No, at least not initially. On 12/23/63 Captain Fritz writes a report for Chief Jesse Curry in which he mentions that one of his officers (Officer Baker) "stopped" Mr Oswald "on the third or fourth floor on the stairway". Which indicates that, even at this late stage, he was out of the loop on the details of the lunchroom hoax.

However, he was of course a party to the burying of Mr Oswald's actual claims (though he did slip up when giving his WC testimony).

So in Fritz's notes where he states - "claims 2nd floor coke when off. came in" - you don't believe that's a reference to the lunchroom encounter?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 02:49:09 PM
Calm down Alan. Your flights of fancy are starting to get the better of you and you had been doing so well.
Just to clarify my position on this - I believe Oswald made the claims in Hosty's notes but I do not believe Oswald was being wholly truthful.

Exactly-----you've gone from Mr Oswald said he went outside with the intention of watching the P. Parade to Mr Oswald said he actually watched the P. Parade. A clean 180. Want me to re-bump your two recent diametrically opposed posts in order to re-illustrate your 180 to everyone?

Quote
There is nowhere that Oswald claims to have had the encounter with Baker and Truly and to reacted to this by going to eat lunch, then going outside. This is a flight of fancy.

Really?

Agent Bookhout's later, solo interrogation report: "Oswald stated that on November 22 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there./Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley."

Quote
If Oswald's claims are to be taken at face value then he is changing his story.

No, what's changing is the account of what he said.

Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report: "He went to 2nd floor to get Coca Cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch P. Parade."

Agent Bookhout's later, solo interrogation report: "Oswald stated that on November 22 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there./Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley."

Both of these reports pertain to the same interrogation (the first) and yet tell completely different stories. Given your clarification that you now suddenly accept that the Hosty draft-report version is an accurate reflection of what Mr Oswald did indeed say, it follows that you cannot anymore stand over the later Bookhout version. Which-----------amongst other things------------deprives you of the claim that Mr Oswald himself confirmed a lunchroom encounter.

Quote
Not an uncommon practice of the guilty.

Ah, there we have it again: you believe Mr Oswald is guilty. Explains a lot!

What guilty deed do you think Mr Oswald is trying to hide by lying about having eaten lunch on one and then watched the P. Parade outside?

Quote
So in Fritz's notes where he states - "claims 2nd floor coke when off. came in" - you don't believe that's a reference to the lunchroom encounter?

Sure, but those notes, like all of Captain Fritz's notes, are derived later from Agent Bookhout's report. The 11/23 report to Chief Curry shows that Captain Fritz was not initially privy to the details of the lunchroom hoax.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2021, 02:56:12 PM
Calm down Alan. Your flights of fancy are starting to get the better of you and you had been doing so well.
Just to clarify my position on this - I believe Oswald made the claims in Hosty's notes but I do not believe Oswald was being wholly truthful.
This is really simple and not open to the fantastical interpretations you claim I've "been maintaining steadfastly". (Steadfastly?? You really should listen to yourself sometime. It's great)

There is nowhere that Oswald claims to have had the encounter with Baker and Truly and to reacted to this by going to eat lunch, then going outside. This is a flight of fancy.
If Oswald's claims are to be taken at face value then he is changing his story. Not an uncommon practice of the guilty.
 
So in Fritz's notes where he states - "claims 2nd floor coke when off. came in" - you don't believe that's a reference to the lunchroom encounter?

There is nowhere that Oswald claims to have had the encounter with Baker and Truly and to reacted to this by going to eat lunch, then going outside. This is a flight of fancy.
If Oswald's claims are to be taken at face value then he is changing his story. Not an uncommon practice of the guilty.


Changing his story?... How so?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 02:59:43 PM
There is nowhere that Oswald claims to have had the encounter with Baker and Truly and to reacted to this by going to eat lunch, then going outside. This is a flight of fancy.
If Oswald's claims are to be taken at face value then he is changing his story. Not an uncommon practice of the guilty.


Changing his story?... How so?

There is no mention of the second floor encounter according Hosty's notes (although Fritz does seem to mention it).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 03:02:25 PM
There is nowhere that Oswald claims to have had the encounter with Baker and Truly and to reacted to this by going to eat lunch, then going outside. This is a flight of fancy.
If Oswald's claims are to be taken at face value then he is changing his story. Not an uncommon practice of the guilty.


Changing his story?... How so?

Mr O'Meara knows the interrogation reports are irreconcilable with one another and is blaming the fact on Mr Oswald, whose guilt he is convinced of.

Mr O'Meara is a WC defender pretending to be a critic of the official story.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2021, 03:23:13 PM
Mr O'Meara knows the interrogation reports are irreconcilable with one another and is blaming the fact on Mr Oswald, whose guilt he is convinced of.

Mr O'Meara is a WC defender pretending to be a critic of the official story.

I go don't give a damn if Dan is (or is not) a WC defender.   He seems to be more candid, open minded and honest, than You Mr Ford.  I'd really love for you to make a solid case that Lee was outside watching the P.Parade at the time JFK was murdered, but alas ....I can clearly see that  you are trying to read your wishful thoughts into the hastily scribbled and truncated notes.

Anybody who is truly seeking the truth should be totally unconcerned about another person's [i"]religion"[/i] as long as the other person is candid and honest and is willing to honestly examine the facts.   One of your major problems Mr Ford lies in your refusal to hear and examine any facet of a subject that conflicts with your views.

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 03:24:27 PM
I go don't give a damn if Dan is (or is not) a WC defender.   He seems to be more candid, open minded and honest, than You Mr Ford.  I'd really love for you to make a solid case that Lee was outside watching the P.Parade at the time JFK was murdered, but alas ....I can clearly see that  you are trying to read your wishful thoughts into the hastily scribbled and truncated notes.

Anybody who is truly seeking the truth should be totally unconcerned about another person's [i"]religion"[/i] as long as the other person is candid and honest and is willing to honestly examine the facts.   One of your major problems Mr Ford lies in your refusal to hear and examine any facet of a subject that conflicts with your views.

~Shrug~
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 05:50:22 PM
Mr O'Meara knows the interrogation reports are irreconcilable with one another and is blaming the fact on Mr Oswald, whose guilt he is convinced of.

Mr O'Meara is a WC defender pretending to be a critic of the official story.

How do you defend something by criticising it?

The utterly moronic quality of some of your statements is astounding.

I am totally open-minded about all this and willing to have my outlook completely changed by compelling argument.
At this moment in time I'm convinced Oswald was involved in the assassination and look at his recorded statements in that light.
I find your rabid defence of something for which there is zero evidence repellent and have fun making a fool of you.
There is no evidence for the identification of Prayer Man as Oswald, equally there is no evidence for the Hoax.
You blindly argue both cases with no regard for Reason or even sanity.
Your fantastical ravings are funny.
And that's all they are.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 06:52:38 PM
How do you defend something by criticising it?

The utterly moronic quality of some of your statements is astounding.

I am totally open-minded about all this and willing to have my outlook completely changed by compelling argument.
At this moment in time I'm convinced Oswald was involved in the assassination and look at his recorded statements in that light.
I find your rabid defence of something for which there is zero evidence repellent and have fun making a fool of you.
There is no evidence for the identification of Prayer Man as Oswald, equally there is no evidence for the Hoax.
You blindly argue both cases with no regard for Reason or even sanity.
Your fantastical ravings are funny.
And that's all they are.

So! Your "totally open-minded" position at present is:

1. Yes, Mr Oswald did indeed claim to have gone outside and watched the P. Parade, but...
2. Mr Oswald, being guilty, was lying because he needed to construct a false alibi.

Question!

What guilty deed do you think Mr Oswald is trying to hide by lying about having eaten lunch on one and then watched the P. Parade outside?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 07:06:16 PM
So! Your "totally open-minded" position at present is:

1. Yes, Mr Oswald did indeed claim to have gone outside and watched the P. Parade, but...
2. Mr Oswald, being guilty, was lying because he needed to construct a false alibi.

Question!

What guilty deed do you think Mr Oswald is trying to hide by lying about having eaten lunch on one and then watched the P. Parade outside?

This same question has already been answered in full.

What evidence do you have confirming the reality of the Hoax?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 07:09:26 PM
"All you have on video, Mr O'Meara, is Mr Oswald confirming his location at the time of the assassination: Texas School Book Depository. He's happy to confirm that he was there and nowhere else."

All I have is Oswald on video confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination, corroborated by Holmes. The insane mental gymnastics involved in arguing that out on the front steps of the building is 'still in the building' are spooky. Nobody looks at it that way except for the zealous PM crew. The front door is right there, on one side is in the building on the other is outside the building. Please don't respond to this comment as I've heard all I need to hear about it.

Bumping this to show everyone the truly remarkable journey Mr O'Meara has been on.

He has spent months and months dismissing as "insane mental gymnastics" the very suggestion that Mr Oswald claimed to have been outside watching the P. Parade.

His current position? Read for yourselves, folks!

The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by.

  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 07:17:20 PM
This same question has already been answered in full.

No, Mr O'Meara, it has been answered in full vagueness.

All you have told us is that you
-------------believe that Mr Oswald had a role in the assassination
-------------don't know where Mr Oswald was at the time of the assassination.

So: What specific deed or activity do you think Mr Oswald is trying to hide by lying about having eaten lunch on one and then watched the P. Parade outside?

Quote
What evidence do you have confirming the reality of the Hoax?

How about we start with the shadow down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film? You know, the one you still can't explain.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 08:56:34 PM
Bumping this to show everyone the truly remarkable journey Mr O'Meara has been on.

He has spent months and months dismissing as "insane mental gymnastics" the very suggestion that Mr Oswald claimed to have been outside watching the P. Parade.

His current position? Read for yourselves, folks!

  Thumb1:

You've got problems.
You couldn't have picked a better quote to highlight the depth of the problems you've got:

"All I have is Oswald on video confirming he was in the building at the time of the assassination, corroborated by Holmes. The insane mental gymnastics involved in arguing that out on the front steps of the building is 'still in the building' are spooky. Nobody looks at it that way except for the zealous PM crew. The front door is right there, on one side is in the building on the other is outside the building."

Just to paraphrase the context of the quote:
There is film of Oswald being questioned by reporters as he is led through the corridors of the DPD.
One reporter asks him where he was at the time of the shooting and Oswald basically says he was in the TSBD.
Obviously, this is a problem for someone like Alan, who is a devout Prayer Man advocate.
To have Oswald himself saying he was in the building at the time of the shooting is a massive fly in the ointment for the PM devotees.
How could Alan reconcile these polar opposites - his rabid belief Oswald was on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shooting and the contradictory words of his hero?
What followed wasn't the most mental thing Alan's ever said but it was right up there.

Alan's argument was that if you are stood on the steps of the TSBD you are still in the TSBD!!
That's right folks...
If you're stood outside the front door you are still in the building!!!
These were the "insane mental gymnastics" being referred to.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 09:21:20 PM
No, Mr O'Meara, it has been answered in full vagueness.

All you have told us is that you
-------------believe that Mr Oswald had a role in the assassination
-------------don't know where Mr Oswald was at the time of the assassination.

So: What specific deed or activity do you think Mr Oswald is trying to hide by lying about having eaten lunch on one and then watched the P. Parade outside?

Nowhere does Oswald say he watched the parade.
You've made that up because you want it to be true.

Quote
How about we start with the shadow down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film? You know, the one you still can't explain.  Thumb1:

 :D :D :D

Folks, this is where the Fantasia Ford show really kicks in.
Stills of the TSBD steps from the Wiegman film show billy Lovelady with a shadow darkening part of him.
Alan is convinced this shadow has been added to hide the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt.
Why would the powers that be want to hide the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt?

(https://i.postimg.cc/dtxV6315/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Alan believes the arm highlighted belongs to Oswald and this is why the Wiegman film had to be altered.
How these two things are related is anybody's guess.
How Alan has identified this as Oswald's arm is anybody's guess, especially when this is a 'normal' version of the pic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8vz4FBY/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Above all, what has any of this got to do with the fake lunchroom hoax?

Who knows 8)

Welcome to the bendy world of Alan Fantasia Ford  Walk:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 21, 2021, 10:12:55 PM
I go don't give a damn if Dan is (or is not) a WC defender.   He seems to be more candid, open minded and honest, than You Mr Ford.  I'd really love for you to make a solid case that Lee was outside watching the P.Parade at the time JFK was murdered, but alas ....I can clearly see that  you are trying to read your wishful thoughts into the hastily scribbled and truncated notes.

Says the guy who uses hastily scribbled and truncated notes to argue that Warren Caster showed three guns to Truly on Wednesday the 19th.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 10:22:49 PM
Nowhere does Oswald say he watched the parade.
You've made that up because you want it to be true.

Reply #1008

I asked: "So why do you think he needs to fabricate an alibi by making a false claim about having gone to one to eat lunch and then gone outside to watch the P. Parade?"

You responded: "The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by."

Why are you pretending you never said this, Mr O'Meara?

Quote
Folks, this is where the Fantasia Ford show really kicks in.
Stills of the TSBD steps from the Wiegman film show billy Lovelady with a shadow darkening part of him.
Alan is convinced this shadow has been added to hide the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt.
Why would the powers that be want to hide the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt?

(https://i.postimg.cc/dtxV6315/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Alan believes the arm highlighted belongs to Oswald and this is why the Wiegman film had to be altered.
How these two things are related is anybody's guess.
How Alan has identified this as Oswald's arm is anybody's guess, especially when this is a 'normal' version of the pic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8vz4FBY/Ford-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Above all, what has any of this got to do with the fake lunchroom hoax?

Who knows 8)

Welcome to the bendy world of Alan Fantasia Ford  Walk:

In other words, you still can't explain the shadow down Mr Lovelady. Got it!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 10:40:04 PM
Reply #1008

I asked: "So why do you think he needs to fabricate an alibi by making a false claim about having gone to one to eat lunch and then gone outside to watch the P. Parade?"

You responded: "The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by."

Why are you pretending you never said this, Mr O'Meara?

Really Alan?
According to Hosty's notes Oswald claimed he went outside to watch the presidential parade.
I have no reason to doubt that Hosty recorded this claim made by Oswald.
Are you with me so far?
Just because Oswald claimed he did that doesn't mean it really happened.
Do you understand that?
I think it is a false claim and you asked me why I thought it was false.
Do you remember this Alan?
I thought it was a false claim because Oswald wanted an alibi.
So you asked me the following question:

"So why do you think he needs to fabricate an alibi by making a false claim about having gone to one to eat lunch and then gone outside to watch the P. Parade?"

And I provided this answer:

The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by. This is his first interrogation. He is being questioned about the shooting of the president. The shooting took place from the TSBD. Oswald is the prime suspect for the shooting. His first reaction must be to distance himself from the alleged crime.

Oswald is trying to distance himself from the crime. He is doing this by implying he is stood outside when the president passes by.
Now listen closely Alan
I'm not saying Oswald is outside at the time of the assassination.
I'm saying that Oswald wants his interrogators to believe that.
So he lies to them.
Is this so difficult to understand?

Quote
In other words, you still can't explain the shadow down Mr Lovelady. Got it!  Thumb1:

Do you see what I've got to put up with folks  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 10:46:30 PM
Really Alan?
According to Hosty's notes Oswald claimed he went outside to watch the presidential parade.
I have no reason to doubt that Hosty recorded this claim made by Oswald.
Are you with me so far?
Just because Oswald claimed he did that doesn't mean it really happened.

 :D

Mr Dan O'Meara: "Nowhere does Oswald say he watched the parade."
Mr Dan O'Meara: "The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 11:08:55 PM
:D

Mr Dan O'Meara: "Nowhere does Oswald say he watched the parade."
Mr Dan O'Meara: "The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade"

I've been trying my best to see what it is you're seeing. I can see you've left this part of the sentence out "...the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by."
The sentence reads -

"The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by. "

So I can see you've taken part of a sentence and are trying to make it seem like a full sentence but I still don't get what you're trying to say. He's implying he went outside but he doesn't actually say he watched the parade..
Oh...
wait on a minute...
are you trying to say you're completely nuts?
Because that would explain so much
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 11:14:28 PM
I've been trying my best to see what it is you're seeing. I can see you've left this part of the sentence out "...the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by."
The sentence reads -

"The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade, the implication being that he was outside the TSBD as JFK passed by. "

So I can see you've taken part of a sentence and are trying to make it seem like a full sentence but I still don't get what you're trying to say. He's implying he went outside but he doesn't actually say he watched the parade..
Oh...
wait on a minute...
are you trying to say you're completely nuts?
Because that would explain so much

 :D

Mr Dan O'Meara: The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade
Mr Dan O'Meara: It is not a part of his false claim that he was outside watching the P. parade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 11:20:02 PM
:D

Mr Dan O'Meara: The important part of his false claim is that he was outside watching the P. parade
Mr Dan O'Meara: It is not a part of his false claim that he was outside watching the P. parade

Mr Alan Ford: I need to up my meds  ;D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2021, 11:44:48 PM
So! Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz in that first interrogation that he visited the second floor lunchroom, then went down to one to eat his lunch and then went outside to watch the P. Parade. This last obviously comes as a bombshell to those in the interrogation room.

Agent Hosty doesn't believe a word Mr Oswald has said, but dutifully records his claims in his draft interrogation report.

What happens next?

Well! Let's compare
a) the opening of that draft report by Agent Hosty
b) the opening of the subsequent joint Hosty-Bookhout report
c) the opening of Agent Bookhout's later solo report.

a) Agent Hosty draft report: "On 11/22 at 3:15pm LHO was interviewed by Capt W. Fritz, JWB & JPH. Capt F. advised O of his rights etc."

b) Joint Hosty-Bookhout report: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD, 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Texas, was interviewed by Captain WILL FRITZ of the Homicide Bureau, Dallas Police Department. Special Agent JAMES P. HOSTY and JAMES W. BOOKHOUT were present during this interview. When the Agents entered the interview room at 3:15 p.m., Captain FRITZ had been previously interviewing LEE HARVEY OSWALD for an undetermined period of time. Both Agents identified themselves to OSWALD and advised him they were law enforcement officers and anything he said could be used against him."

c) Solo Bookhout report: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas Police Department, by Captain J. W. FRITZ in the presence of Special Agent JAMES W. BOOKHOUT, Federal Bureau of Investigation. OSWALD was advised of the identity and official capacity of said agent and the fact that he did not have to make any statement, that any statement he did make could be used in a court of law against him, and that any statement made must be free and voluntary and that he had the right to consult with an attorney."

Notice the personnel change from a)+b) to c)?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 21, 2021, 11:49:34 PM
So! Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz in that first interrogation that he visited the second floor lunchroom, then went down to one to eat his lunch and then went outside to watch the P. Parade. This last obviously comes as a bombshell to those in the interrogation room.

Agent Hosty doesn't believe a word Mr Oswald has said, but dutifully records his claims in his draft interrogation report.

What happens next?

Well! Let's compare
a) the opening of that draft report by Agent Hosty
b) the opening of the subsequent joint Hosty-Bookhout report
c) the opening of Agent Bookhout's later solo report.

a) Agent Hosty draft report: "On 11/22 at 3:15pm LHO was interviewed by Capt W. Fritz, JWB & JPH. Capt F. advised O of his rights etc."

b) Joint Hosty-Bookhout report: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD, 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Texas, was interviewed by Captain WILL FRITZ of the Homicide Bureau, Dallas Police Department. Special Agent JAMES P. HOSTY and JAMES W. BOOKHOUT were present during this interview. When the Agents entered the interview room at 3:15 p.m., Captain FRITZ had been previously interviewing LEE HARVEY OSWALD for an undetermined period of time. Both Agents identified themselves to OSWALD and advised him they were law enforcement officers and anything he said could be used against him."

c) Solo Bookhout report: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas Police Department, by Captain J. W. FRITZ in the presence of Special Agent JAMES W. BOOKHOUT, Federal Bureau of Investigation. OSWALD was advised of the identity and official capacity of said agent and the fact that he did not have to make any statement, that any statement he did make could be used in a court of law against him, and that any statement made must be free and voluntary and that he had the right to consult with an attorney."

Notice the personnel change from a)+b) to c)?

Hosty isn't mentioned in the solo Bookhout report.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 22, 2021, 12:20:52 AM
"At about 10.30pm, November 23, 1963,I attended my first interview with Oswald...I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not..."

Inspector Thomas J Kelley

Go figure
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 22, 2021, 12:30:19 AM
Keep in mind that none of the FBI reports or Fritz's report (or even Fritz's notes) were written during the interrogations.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 12:31:38 AM
"At about 10.30pm, November 23, 1963,I attended my first interview with Oswald...I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not..."

Inspector Thomas J Kelley

Go figure

Yes, Inspector Kelley lied. What else can we help you with, Mr O'Meara?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 12:32:16 AM
Keep in mind that none of the FBI reports or Fritz's report (or even Fritz's notes) were written during the interrogations.

Correct!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 22, 2021, 12:48:35 AM
Yes, Inspector Kelley lied. What else can we help you with, Mr O'Meara?

 :D :D :D

It's not me who needs the help Alan.

Why did Kelley lie and what proof do you have of that?

(I always like asking what proof you have for your made-up facts)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 22, 2021, 12:53:25 AM
Keep in mind that none of the FBI reports or Fritz's report (or even Fritz's notes) were written during the interrogations.

I'll also keep in mind that Kelley only got to ask Oswald about three questions so would have a fairly decent recollection of the answers.
Further evidence Oswald was not outside at the time of the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 12:56:14 AM
:D :D :D

It's not me who needs the help Alan.

Why did Kelley lie

Because it had been decided at the highest level that nothing was to get in the way of Mr Oswald's conviction in the public eye as the lone gunman. Frankly astonishing that you need to ask.

Quote
and what proof do you have of that?

What proof do you have he's telling the truth? Apart from your gullibility and pro-WC bias, that is?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 22, 2021, 01:29:16 AM
Because it had been decided at the highest level that nothing was to get in the way of Mr Oswald's conviction in the public eye as the lone gunman. Frankly astonishing that you need to ask.

He didn't need to lie Alan because Oswald never did watch the parade.
Can't you see that.
Oswald says as much on film.
There were 7 or 8 other people in the room with Kelley when he asked Oswald if he saw the parade.
Oswald said he never saw the parade in front of all these people.
You can't seriously be saying they were all in on this simple lie.
All 8 interrogators lying about this one little thing.

Quote
What proof do you have he's telling the truth? Apart from your gullibility and pro-WC bias, that is?

You're the one making the wild accusations you can never back up.
And what makes you think I'm pro-WC? Just because I think you're FoS?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 01:36:16 AM
There were 7 or 8 other people in the room with Kelley when he asked Oswald if he saw the parade.

Well, there were other people in the room anyway. Whether they heard such an exchange is another matter altogether.

Inspector Kelley has Mr Oswald make three straight denials---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/ab/b9/IZm25CZ8_o.jpg)

----------but Agent Bookhout records only two----------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/9e/45/OOomo4N6_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 01:44:46 AM
So! Mr Oswald tells Captain Fritz in that first interrogation that he visited the second floor lunchroom, then went down to one to eat his lunch and then went outside to watch the P. Parade. This last obviously comes as a bombshell to those in the interrogation room.

Agent Hosty doesn't believe a word Mr Oswald has said, but dutifully records his claims in his draft interrogation report.

What happens next?

Well! Let's compare
a) the opening of that draft report by Agent Hosty
b) the opening of the subsequent joint Hosty-Bookhout report
c) the opening of Agent Bookhout's later solo report.

a) Agent Hosty draft report: "On 11/22 at 3:15pm LHO was interviewed by Capt W. Fritz, JWB & JPH. Capt F. advised O of his rights etc."

b) Joint Hosty-Bookhout report: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD, 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Texas, was interviewed by Captain WILL FRITZ of the Homicide Bureau, Dallas Police Department. Special Agent JAMES P. HOSTY and JAMES W. BOOKHOUT were present during this interview. When the Agents entered the interview room at 3:15 p.m., Captain FRITZ had been previously interviewing LEE HARVEY OSWALD for an undetermined period of time. Both Agents identified themselves to OSWALD and advised him they were law enforcement officers and anything he said could be used against him."

c) Solo Bookhout report: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas Police Department, by Captain J. W. FRITZ in the presence of Special Agent JAMES W. BOOKHOUT, Federal Bureau of Investigation. OSWALD was advised of the identity and official capacity of said agent and the fact that he did not have to make any statement, that any statement he did make could be used in a court of law against him, and that any statement made must be free and voluntary and that he had the right to consult with an attorney."

Notice the personnel change from a)+b) to c)?

So! Agent Bookhout, in his solo report, writes Agent Hosty completely out of the script. We can see what's going on here by comparing each successive report's treatment of Mr Oswald's claims:

a) Hosty draft report: lunchroom (pre-assassination) + 1st floor (pre-assassination) + "then went outside to watch P. Parade"

b) Hosty-Bookhout joint report: lunchroom (when?) + 1st floor (when?) + "on the first floor when President Kennedy passed the building" (a compromise formula that tells no straight lie while not telling the truth!)

c) Bookhout solo report: lunchroom (post-assassination: Baker & Truly have joined the party!) + 1st floor (post-assassination) + out front (post-assassination).

Agent Hosty never-----to the end of his days-----confirmed Mr Oswald's confirmation of a post-assassination lunchroom encounter. And he never destroyed his original draft report, which he eventually handed over as part of his papers to the ARRB. Posthumously, he is having the last word over the fellow Agent who wrote him out of the script!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 04:17:37 AM
Keep in mind that none of the FBI reports or Fritz's report (or even Fritz's notes) were written during the interrogations.

Fritz's notes weren't scribbled during the interrogation??   How silly.... Fritz had been a detective for several decades, he was a seasoned veteran interrogator....and you think he didn't jot down information as he questioned a suspect???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 04:29:34 AM
He didn't need to lie Alan because Oswald never did watch the parade.
Can't you see that.
Oswald says as much on film.
There were 7 or 8 other people in the room with Kelley when he asked Oswald if he saw the parade.
Oswald said he never saw the parade in front of all these people.
You can't seriously be saying they were all in on this simple lie.
All 8 interrogators lying about this one little thing.

You're the one making the wild accusations you can never back up.
And what makes you think I'm pro-WC? Just because I think you're FoS?

Dan, Mr Ford is very much like Rob Caprio .....  He gets some wild idea in his head and even after it's proven that the idea is total nonsense and untrue ...he will not back up and listen to reason.....Instead he will accuse anybody who tries to show him the facts, as being supporters of the tale created by the Warren Commission.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on January 22, 2021, 07:37:16 AM
Keep in mind that none of the FBI reports or Fritz's report (or even Fritz's notes) were written during the interrogations.

Fritz wrote his notes several days up to a week later when all the important information escaped his mind. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 10:22:59 AM
Dan, Mr Ford is very much like Rob Caprio .....  He gets some wild idea in his head and even after it's proven that the idea is total nonsense and untrue ...he will not back up and listen to reason.....Instead he will accuse anybody who tries to show him the facts, as being supporters of the tale created by the Warren Commission.

I've never accused you of being a WC defender, have I, Mr Cakebread?

The most committed members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps belong to two very different groups
------------------those obsessed with protecting the idea of Mr Oswald's guilt (Mr O'Meara is a member of this group)
------------------those CTs who have spent so many years clinging to the lunchroom story that they react with irrational hostility to anyone who tries to take their comfort blanket away from them (you belong to this group)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 22, 2021, 11:24:41 AM
I've never accused you of being a WC defender, have I, Mr Cakebread?

The most committed members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps belong to two very different groups
------------------those obsessed with protecting the idea of Mr Oswald's guilt (Mr O'Meara is a member of this group)
------------------those CTs who have spent so many years clinging to the lunchroom story that they react with irrational hostility to anyone who tries to take their comfort blanket away from them (you belong to this group)

 Thumb1:

The idea that your hero is a completely innocent bystander caught up in the assassination reflects a truly disturbed mentality.
This disturbed mentality is revealed when anyone challenges it in any way.
There is zero evidence that Oswald is on the steps. It's not a question of burying or ignoring evidence - there is not one scrap of evidence placing Oswald there.
Not one.
How can you defend that so zealously?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 01:11:14 PM
The idea that your hero is a completely innocent bystander caught up in the assassination reflects a truly disturbed mentality.

Quote me saying anything of the sort, Mr O'Meara. You can't, can you?

Quote
This disturbed mentality is revealed when anyone challenges it in any way.
There is zero evidence that Oswald is on the steps.

Well, up to a couple of days ago you were loudly proclaiming that there was zero evidence Mr Oswald ever claimed to have been out front for the P. Parade. You're a rookie blowhard, and you make a fool of yourself every time you try to protect the official fairytale!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 03:10:52 PM
Fritz wrote his notes several days up to a week later when all the important information escaped his mind.

You are very gullible and naive if you truly believe that Fritz didn't take notes during the interrogation of Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 04:53:34 PM
The idea that your hero is a completely innocent bystander caught up in the assassination reflects a truly disturbed mentality.
This disturbed mentality is revealed when anyone challenges it in any way.
There is zero evidence that Oswald is on the steps. It's not a question of burying or ignoring evidence - there is not one scrap of evidence placing Oswald there.
Not one.
How can you defend that so zealously?

The idea that Lee Oswald , a hapless sucker, is a  completely innocent bystander caught up in the assassination reflects a truly disturbed mentality...... and one that is unwilling to accept that his beloved country with it's powerful government leaders could use a goofy sucker like Lee Oswald and then murder him.

Completely innocent bystander??   Yes, that's probably true....He wasn't a completely innocent bystander... But he wasn't guilty of being a willing and knowing accessory or an accomplice.  He allowed himself to be placed in a position where he could be made "the patsy".    He thought that he was a US intel agent whose mission it was to infiltrate Cuba. Just as he had infiltrated the USSR four years earlier.  He was a bit goofy in the fact that he imagined himself to be a budding James Bond. ( or Herb Philbrick)  One only has to examine the "attempt" to kill General Walker to see his dangerously goofy psyche.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 05:47:15 PM
Now! From Captain Fritz's WC testimony-----------

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--
...
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.


Interesting exchange! I draw attention to some key points:

1. "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement" - this is indeed what Mr Oswald said, but Captain Fritz is leaving out the WHERE (front steps: as we now know, Mr Oswald's claim was that he went "outside to watch P. Parade")

2. "I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that..." - this incoherence is just plain funny

3. "told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom" -  curious that Captain Fritz recalls having been told of a STAIRWAY encounter but it took an "investigation" to relocate that to a LUNCHROOM one

4. "a little lunchroom where they were eating" - they? Captain Fritz is here working off the same story Chief Curry told reporters on 11/23

5. "I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right." - attend closely to Captain Fritz's weasel words here: they offer no confirmation that Mr Oswald confirmed having been seen in the lunchroom (how exactly do you "stop" someone who's standing or sitting in a lunchroom eating their lunch?)

6. "Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch." - more weasel words, allowing Captain Fritz to NOT answer yes to Mr Ball's question as to whether he had asked Mr Oswald what he was doing in the lunchroom

7. "Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola." - yet more weasel words: Captain Fritz is NOT confirming that Mr Oswald talked about being "up there" in the lunchroom at the time in question

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 06:15:12 PM
Now! From Captain Fritz's WC testimony-----------

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--
...
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.


Interesting exchange! I draw attention to some key points:

1. "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement" - this is indeed what Mr Oswald said, but Captain Fritz is leaving out the WHERE (front steps: as we now know, Mr Oswald's claim was that he went "outside to watch P. Parade")

2. "I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that..." - this incoherence is just plain funny

3. "told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom" -  curious that Captain Fritz recalls having been told of a STAIRWAY encounter but it took an "investigation" to relocate that to a LUNCHROOM one

4. "a little lunchroom where they were eating" - they? Captain Fritz is here working off the same story Chief Curry told reporters on 11/23

5. "I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right." - attend closely to Captain Fritz's weasel words here: they offer no confirmation that Mr Oswald confirmed having been seen in the lunchroom (how exactly do you "stop" someone who's standing or sitting in a lunchroom eating their lunch?)

6. "Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch." - more weasel words, allowing Captain Fritz to NOT answer yes to Mr Ball's question as to whether he had asked Mr Oswald what he was doing in the lunchroom

7. "Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola." - yet more weasel words: Captain Fritz is NOT confirming that Mr Oswald talked about being "up there" in the lunchroom at the time in question

 Thumb1:

I'm mildly surprised that you would use Fritz's testimony which was given before LBJ's cover up committee.

Those shyster lawyers extracted what they wanted from anybody who testified.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 06:36:54 PM
Now! From Captain Fritz's WC testimony-----------

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--
...
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.


Interesting exchange! I draw attention to some key points:

1. "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement" - this is indeed what Mr Oswald said, but Captain Fritz is leaving out the WHERE (front steps: as we now know, Mr Oswald's claim was that he went "outside to watch P. Parade")

2. "I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that..." - this incoherence is just plain funny

3. "told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom" -  curious that Captain Fritz recalls having been told of a STAIRWAY encounter but it took an "investigation" to relocate that to a LUNCHROOM one

4. "a little lunchroom where they were eating" - they? Captain Fritz is here working off the same story Chief Curry told reporters on 11/23

5. "I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right." - attend closely to Captain Fritz's weasel words here: they offer no confirmation that Mr Oswald confirmed having been seen in the lunchroom (how exactly do you "stop" someone who's standing or sitting in a lunchroom eating their lunch?)

6. "Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch." - more weasel words, allowing Captain Fritz to NOT answer yes to Mr Ball's question as to whether he had asked Mr Oswald what he was doing in the lunchroom

7. "Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola." - yet more weasel words: Captain Fritz is NOT confirming that Mr Oswald talked about being "up there" in the lunchroom at the time in question

 Thumb1:

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened,

Lie!!....Lee did not tell Fritz that he was eating lunch with some employees


Lee said that he was alone in the 1st floor lunchroom when he saw Jarman and Norman pass by the lunchroom. ( Lee didn't know them very well but he recognized them,) and Jarman and Norman verified the fact that they had indeed walked by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26.

 and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--

Lee DID NOT "see all of the excitement".....Nor did he hear any shots....   He saw the excitement at about 12:35 when he went outside to watch the P. Parade.

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.


Here Fritz admits that Roy Truly had told him before he ever left the TSBD that Baker had encountered Lee "ON THE STAIRWAY"
  but he learned later that the man that Baker had encountered "ON THE STAIRWAY" was not Lee Oswald, and he learned later that Baker had actually encountered Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 06:46:12 PM
Now! From Captain Fritz's WC testimony-----------

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--
...
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.


Interesting exchange! I draw attention to some key points:

1. "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement" - this is indeed what Mr Oswald said, but Captain Fritz is leaving out the WHERE (front steps: as we now know, Mr Oswald's claim was that he went "outside to watch P. Parade")

2. "I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that..." - this incoherence is just plain funny

3. "told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom" -  curious that Captain Fritz recalls having been told of a STAIRWAY encounter but it took an "investigation" to relocate that to a LUNCHROOM one

4. "a little lunchroom where they were eating" - they? Captain Fritz is here working off the same story Chief Curry told reporters on 11/23

5. "I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right." - attend closely to Captain Fritz's weasel words here: they offer no confirmation that Mr Oswald confirmed having been seen in the lunchroom (how exactly do you "stop" someone who's standing or sitting in a lunchroom eating their lunch?)

6. "Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch." - more weasel words, allowing Captain Fritz to NOT answer yes to Mr Ball's question as to whether he had asked Mr Oswald what he was doing in the lunchroom

7. "Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola." - yet more weasel words: Captain Fritz is NOT confirming that Mr Oswald talked about being "up there" in the lunchroom at the time in question

 Thumb1:

2. "I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that..." - this incoherence is just plain funny

Not so funny....I'd suggest that you watch a few episodes of the TV program The First 48 and notice that the suspects being questioned frequently use the same tactic.  They pretend that they don't remember details of a crime, but after the detectives get them to admit that they do remember, they are forced to admit their involvement.  Fritz was simply a damned liar. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 08:14:01 PM
Here Fritz admits that Roy Truly had told him before he ever left the TSBD that Baker had encountered Lee "ON THE STAIRWAY"
  but he learned later that the man that Baker had encountered "ON THE STAIRWAY" was not Lee Oswald

So Mr Truly lied to Captain Fritz?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 08:16:39 PM
Now! From Captain Fritz's WC testimony-----------

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--
...
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.


Interesting exchange! I draw attention to some key points:

1. "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement" - this is indeed what Mr Oswald said, but Captain Fritz is leaving out the WHERE (front steps: as we now know, Mr Oswald's claim was that he went "outside to watch P. Parade")

2. "I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that..." - this incoherence is just plain funny

3. "told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom" -  curious that Captain Fritz recalls having been told of a STAIRWAY encounter but it took an "investigation" to relocate that to a LUNCHROOM one

4. "a little lunchroom where they were eating" - they? Captain Fritz is here working off the same story Chief Curry told reporters on 11/23

5. "I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right." - attend closely to Captain Fritz's weasel words here: they offer no confirmation that Mr Oswald confirmed having been seen in the lunchroom (how exactly do you "stop" someone who's standing or sitting in a lunchroom eating their lunch?)

6. "Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch." - more weasel words, allowing Captain Fritz to NOT answer yes to Mr Ball's question as to whether he had asked Mr Oswald what he was doing in the lunchroom

7. "Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?/ Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola." - yet more weasel words: Captain Fritz is NOT confirming that Mr Oswald talked about being "up there" in the lunchroom at the time in question

 Thumb1:

Mr Ford.....Some days ago you posted the scribbled notes of Bookhout.    In which he scribbled something like  " says he had lunch in the first floor lunchroom, alone"

Could you please post that again.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 08:19:17 PM
Mr Ford.....Some days ago you posted the scribbled notes of Bookhout.    In which he scribbled something like  " says he had lunch in the first floor lunchroom, alone"

Could you please post that again.

I'm afraid I know of no such scribbled notes from Agent Bookhout
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 08:26:34 PM
I'm afraid I know of no such scribbled notes from Agent Bookhout

OK, thank you...Perhaps I'm misremembering....     I thought it was you who had posted the scribbled notes.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 08:54:24 PM
Friends, think about the absurd position of those who believe that Mr Oswald confirmed a second-floor post-shooting encounter with the officer and Mr Truly.

A. Suppose Mr Oswald is guilty of the shooting. He went downstairs and was confronted by the officer at the lunchroom. Now in custody, he knows that Mr Truly and the officer will tell Captain Fritz of this, if they haven't done so already. So he confirms the encounter. The self-interested thing to do now is to just tell the next part truthfully as to external facts: I wanted to find out what had happened. I went through the office area, where one of the ladies who works there told me the President had been shot. I went down the front stairs and out front.

B. Suppose Mr Oswald is innocent of the shooting. He happened to be confronted by the officer at the lunchroom. Now in custody, he knows that Mr Truly and the officer will tell Captain Fritz of this, if they haven't done so already. So he confirms the encounter. All he has to do now is tell the next part: I wanted to find out what had happened. I went through the office area, where one of the ladies who works there told me the President had been shot. I went down the front stairs and out front.

About the single maddest, most suicidally self-incriminating thing Mr Oswald can do-------------on EITHER scenario above--------------is say: I immediately put the encounter with the police officer out of my mind and went back down to the first floor to eat my lunch. Then I walked to the front of the building, not noticing anything or anybody around me. Then I went outside to watch the P. Parade. To my great surprise...

Yet this is what Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps would have us believe Mr Oswald said!

Mr O'Meara, in his zeal to keep Mr Oswald away from them steps, even goes a step further-----------

I immediately put the encounter with the police officer out of my mind and went back down to the first floor to eat my lunch. Then I walked to the front of the building, not noticing anything or anybody around me. Then I went outside to watch the P. Parade. It took a little while before I realized that it wasn't a normal parade...

Why----------according to Mr O'Meara----------did Mr Oswald say this? Why, to fashion for himself an alibi!  :D

This, friends, is the deranged thinking to which the revelation of Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report has reduced members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 09:02:10 PM
So Mr Truly lied to Captain Fritz?

HUH??....  Truly told Fritz while Fritz was at the TSBD ( Around 1:45 ??)   that officer Baker had encountered a man ON THE STAIRS .....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 09:05:54 PM
Friends, think about the absurd position of those who believe that Mr Oswald confirmed a second-floor post-shooting encounter with the officer and Mr Truly.

A. Suppose Mr Oswald is guilty of the shooting. He went downstairs and was confronted by the officer at the lunchroom. Now in custody, he knows that Mr Truly and the officer will tell Captain Fritz of this, if they haven't done so already. So he confirms the encounter. The self-interested thing to do now is to just tell the next part truthfully as to external facts: I wanted to find out what had happened. I went through the office area, where one of the ladies who works there told me the President had been shot. I went down the front stairs and out front.

B. Suppose Mr Oswald is innocent of the shooting. He happened to be confronted by the officer at the lunchroom. Now in custody, he knows that Mr Truly and the officer will tell Captain Fritz of this, if they haven't done so already. So he confirms the encounter. All he has to do now is tell the next part: I wanted to find out what had happened. I went through the office area, where one of the ladies who works there told me the President had been shot. I went down the front stairs and out front.

About the single maddest, most suicidally self-incriminating thing Mr Oswald can do-------------on EITHER scenario above--------------is say: I immediately put the encounter with the police officer out of my mind and went back down to the first floor to eat my lunch. Then I walked to the front of the building, not noticing anything or anybody around me. Then I went outside to watch the P. Parade. To my great surprise...

Yet this is what Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps would have us believe Mr Oswald said!

Mr O'Meara, in his zeal to keep Mr Oswald away from them steps, even goes a step further-----------

I immediately put the encounter with the police officer out of my mind and went back down to the first floor to eat my lunch. Then I walked to the front of the building, not noticing anything or anybody around me. Then I went outside to watch the P. Parade. It took a little while before I realized that it wasn't a normal parade...

Why----------according to Mr O'Meara----------did Mr Oswald say this? Why, to fashion for himself an alibi!  :D

Meanwhile, for those of us who prefer things to be straightforwardly logical, we have a perfectly simple claim from Mr Oswald himself:

I went to the second floor lunchroom and bought a Coke. I then went down to the first floor to have lunch. Then I took what was left of my lunch and Coke outside with me to watch the P. Parade. I was there on the front steps when the shooting happened.

Mr Oswald's claim is the primary claim. It both precedes and has a hell of a lot more going for it than the WC fairytale claim. The fact that it had to be suppressed tells us all we need to know about its correspondence to reality!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 09:08:11 PM
HUH??....  Truly told Fritz while Fritz was at the TSBD ( Around 1:45 ??)   that officer Baker had encountered a man ON THE STAIRS .....

Did Mr Truly tell Captain Fritz that the man was Mr Oswald?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
Did Mr Truly tell Captain Fritz that the man was Mr Oswald?

Truly may ? have told Fritz that the man's name was Lee Oswald......But I doubt it.

Baker described the man as being about 30, with dark hair, weighing 165 pounds, and wearing a light brown jacket. And he was walking away from the stairs.

Baker did NOT describe Lee Oswald...and therefore Truly would have known full well that the man was NOT Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 09:32:28 PM
Meanwhile, for those of us who prefer things to be straightforwardly logical, we have a perfectly clear claim from Mr Oswald himself:

I went to the second floor lunchroom and bought a Coke. I then went down to the first floor to have lunch. Then I took what was left of my lunch and Coke outside with me to watch the P. Parade. I was there on the front steps when the shooting happened.

Mr Oswald's claim is the primary claim. It both precedes and has a hell of a lot more going for it than the WC fairytale claim. The fact that it had to be suppressed tells us all we need to know about its correspondence to reality!  Thumb1:

By the afternoon of the assassination, the 'investigating' authorities had a compound nightmare on their hands............

-----------The suspect was claiming, truthfully, to have been on the front steps at the time of the shooting
-----------The suspect was claiming, truthfully, to have been asked by an officer charging into the building whether he worked there
-----------That same officer was talking about confronting a man by the rear stairway several floors up
-----------There was no guarantee that a witness to the suspect (and/or to Suspect + Officer + Mr Truly) on the steps would not tell a pressman about it
-----------There was no guarantee that a photograph or film showing the suspect (and/or Suspect + Officer + Mr Truly) on the steps would not show up

What to do?

Well....

Priority #1: Get Mr Oswald away from those steps
Priority #2: Disappear the non-Oswaldian man caught walking away from the rear stairway

Thus was born the Lunchroom Encounter
-----------------A location within theoretical striking distance of the sixth floor for a shooter, but within theoretical striking distance of the front entrance for a non-shooter
-----------------A location that Mr Oswald himself would have had good reason to visit during lunchtime (should public proof of his innocence emerge)
-----------------On a floor whose layout meant that Mr Oswald could theoretically have gone up quickly enough by the front stairs to be seen "walking" (if not "walking away") by the officer coming on to the floor off the rear stairs.

Frame the suspect, but if that doesn't stick: CYA!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 09:33:35 PM
Truly may ? have told Fritz that the man's name was Lee Oswald......But I doubt it.

Baker described the man as being about 30, with dark hair, weighing 165 pounds, and wearing a light brown jacket. And he was walking away from the stairs.

Baker did NOT describe Lee Oswald...and therefore Truly would have known full well that the man was NOT Lee Oswald.

So Mr Truly volunteered to Captain Fritz the information that he had cleared as an employee a man who was not an employee?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2021, 09:35:21 PM
Meanwhile, for those of us who prefer things to be straightforwardly logical, we have a perfectly clear claim from Mr Oswald himself:

I went to the second floor lunchroom and bought a Coke. I then went down to the first floor to have lunch. Then I took what was left of my lunch and Coke outside with me to watch the P. Parade. I was there on the front steps when the shooting happened.

Mr Oswald's claim is the primary claim. It both precedes and has a hell of a lot more going for it than the WC fairytale claim. The fact that it had to be suppressed tells us all we need to know about its correspondence to reality!  Thumb1:

I went to the second floor lunchroom and bought a Coke. I then went down to the first floor to have lunch. Then I took what was left of my lunch and Coke outside with me to watch the P. Parade. I was there on the front steps when the shooting happened.

Where and when do you imagine that Lee Oswald said this??   I have never heard of anything like this....

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 09:48:34 PM
Well, there were other people in the room anyway. Whether they heard such an exchange is another matter altogether.

Inspector Kelley has Mr Oswald make three straight denials---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/ab/b9/IZm25CZ8_o.jpg)

----------but Agent Bookhout records only two----------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/9e/45/OOomo4N6_o.jpg)

Let us remind ourselves of how Agent Bookhout--------in first his solo report---------begins his account of Mr Oswald's account of his movements around the time of the assassination:

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building..."

Notice how Agent Bookhout is going straight to "the time of the search", having skipped over the single most important bit------the time of the shooting itself.

This is the lunchroom CYA strategy in operation: do NOT put any claimed assassination-time location in Mr Oswald's mouth, nor even a denial that he had watched the P. Parade, lest proof emerge down the line that he was in fact out front------------and that YOU lied about what he said in interrogation.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 11:23:42 PM
Let us remind ourselves of how Agent Bookhout--------in first his solo report---------begins his account of Mr Oswald's account of his movements around the time of the assassination:

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building..."

Notice how Agent Bookhout is going straight to "the time of the search", having skipped over the single most important bit------the time of the shooting itself.

This is the lunchroom CYA strategy in operation: do NOT put any claimed assassination-time location in Mr Oswald's mouth, nor even a denial that he had watched the P. Parade, lest proof emerge down the line that he was in fact out front------------and that YOU lied about what he said in interrogation.

As for Mr Truly and Officer Baker, they will say NOTHING incriminating about Mr Oswald's demeanor (no sweating, not out of breath, no agitation) in the lunchroom encounter. The story they tell has to work both ways.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2021, 11:46:53 PM
As for Mr Truly and Officer Baker, they will say NOTHING incriminating about Mr Oswald's demeanor (no sweating, not out of breath, no agitation) in the lunchroom encounter. The story they tell has to work both ways.

Many years later, Officer Baker takes part in the 'London Trial'. Mr Oswald's 'defense lawyer', Mr Gerry Spence, shows him a closeup of Altgens 6 and asks him if he recognizes the man in the doorway (whom we know to be Mr Billy Lovelady). Ex-Officer Baker says straight up it looks like Mr Oswald. And that's it. He does not add, 'But it can't be him, because I saw him up on the second floor just after that'. No-----------he knows two things:

-------------a) Mr Oswald was indeed in the doorway at the time of (or at least within seconds of) the shooting
-------------b) the fabricated lunchroom story was designed precisely to allow for the possibility that Mr Oswald could have been in that doorway and still, a very short time later, been up by the lunchroom as Officer Baker came off the first flight of stairs.

Had Mr Spence known the things we know----------starting with Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit, Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report, the presence of Prayer Man----------that exchange would have gone to an even more interesting place!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 12:11:38 AM
Many years later, Officer Baker takes part in the 'London Trial'. Mr Oswald's 'defense lawyer', Mr Gerry Spence, shows him a closeup of Altgens 6 and asks him if he recognizes the man in the doorway (whom we know to be Mr Billy Lovelady). Ex-Officer Baker says straight up it looks like Mr Oswald. And that's it. He does not add, 'But it can't be him, because I saw him up on the second floor just after that'. No-----------he knows two things:

-------------a) Mr Oswald was indeed in the doorway at the time of (or at least within seconds of) the shooting
-------------b) the fabricated lunchroom story was designed precisely to allow for the possibility that Mr Oswald could have been in that doorway and still, a very short time later, been up by the lunchroom as Officer Baker came off the first flight of stairs.

Had Mr Spence known the things we know----------starting with Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit, Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report, the presence of Prayer Man----------that exchange would have gone to an even more interesting place!

 Thumb1:

Ex-Officer Baker says straight up it looks like Mr Oswald.

As Joe D Schmoe  said.... Big F--ing Deal!      Many folks who have seen Altgen's 6 have said that the man on the steps looks like Lee Oswald...... And I agree the image does look like Lee Oswald..... BUT since I'm convinced that Lee would NOT have been anywhere where he could have been photographed at the time the "SHOTS" were fired, because he thought it was a hoax "attempt"  and it was supposed to appear that he had attempted to shoot JFK . He would not have been anywhere to be seen or photographed during the hoax attempt, because if he had fled to Cuba and been granted asylum as a fugitive who had tried to kill Castro's enemy and a photo surfaced that showed him in a place where he couldn't possibly have been involved in the "attempted " assassination.   .....That would have been a free ticket to attend Castro's firing squad.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 23, 2021, 12:15:44 AM
Ex-Officer Baker says straight up it looks like Mr Oswald.

As Joe D Schmoe  said.... Big F--ing Deal!      Many folks who have seen Altgen's 6 have said that the man on the steps looks like Lee Oswald...... And I agree the image does look like Lee Oswald..... BUT since I'm convinced that Lee would NOT have been anywhere where he could have been photographed at the time the "SHOTS" were fired, because he thought it was a hoax "attempt"  and it was supposed to appear that he had attempted to shoot JFK . He would not have been anywhere to be seen or photographed during the hoax attempt, because if he had fled to Cuba and been granted asylum as a fugitive who had tried to kill Castro's enemy and a photo surfaced that showed him in a place where he couldn't possibly have been involved in the "attempted " assassination.   .....That would have been a free ticket to attend Castro's firing squad.

Unlike you, Mr Cakebread, I never knew Mr Oswald, nor was I privy to the amazing information you have presented here
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 12:38:06 AM
Unlike you, Mr Cakebread, I never knew Mr Oswald, nor was I privy to the amazing information you have presented here

Just THINK about what I've told you.......
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on January 23, 2021, 12:55:15 AM
You are very gullible and naive if you truly believe that Fritz didn't take notes during the interrogation of Lee Oswald.

Mr. Cakebread does not know anything about the JFK case since Fritz himself ADMITTED he didn't take notes until several days AFTER the interrogation. I suggest you do more research before you call others gullible because you look very foolish. Mr. Cakebread doesn't even know the basics of this case. What a shame.

How do you like them apples?   


OSWALD INTERROGATION NOTES RELEASED

Thirty-four years after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, the handwritten notes of Lee Harvey Oswald's questioning have surfaced.

The handwritten notes of the Dallas police homicide chief who questioned Lee Harvey Oswald were released Thursday, two days before the 34th anniversary of John F. Kennedy's assassination. The notes, which the late police Capt. J.W. ``Will' Fritz indicated he made several days after the interrogation, supported key points made by Fritz during his testimony before the Warren Commission in 1964.

https://greensboro.com/oswald-interrogation-notes-released/article_65956323-a582-57f3-84c6-8ce96512dce3.html
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 01:06:03 AM
Unlike you, Mr Cakebread, I never knew Mr Oswald, nor was I privy to the amazing information you have presented here

Lee was NOT in the first floor lunchroom ( the Domino Room) when Jarman and Norman passed by at 12:26 , even though he said that he was.... He was staying out of sight, and he was in the shower that was just off the Domino room.   Lee could see Jarman and Norman walking across the loading dock and approaching the back door of the shipping room, so he slipped into the shower so that they couldn't tell anybody that they had seen Lee Oswald on the first floor just a few minutes before JFK was murdered.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 23, 2021, 01:15:48 AM
Lee was NOT in the first floor lunchroom ( the Domino Room) when Jarman and Norman passed by at 12:26 , even though he said that he was.... He was staying out of sight, and he was in the shower that was just off the Domino room.   Lee could see Jarman and Norman walking across the loading dock and approaching the back door of the shipping room, so he slipped into the shower so that they couldn't tell anybody that they had seen Lee Oswald on the first floor just a few minutes before JFK was murdered.   

And you've seen 11/22/63 CCTV footage from inside the Depository? Wowzers!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 04:13:32 AM
And you've seen 11/22/63 CCTV footage from inside the Depository? Wowzers!

There was no closed caption TV  (Surveillance )  in 1963....,
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on January 23, 2021, 05:12:11 AM
Lee was NOT in the first floor lunchroom ( the Domino Room) when Jarman and Norman passed by at 12:26 , even though he said that he was.... He was staying out of sight, and he was in the shower that was just off the Domino room.   Lee could see Jarman and Norman walking across the loading dock and approaching the back door of the shipping room, so he slipped into the shower so that they couldn't tell anybody that they had seen Lee Oswald on the first floor just a few minutes before JFK was murdered.

More speculation and no factual evidence.

Junior Jarman and Harold Norman walked through that second floor lunch room and remembered that there was “someone else in there”. When Oswald was being interrogated, he remembered two black employees walking through the lunch room while he was inside the room.

Also, a Dallas police officer and Oswald’s boss testified seeing Oswald in that same lunch room less than 80-seconds after the last shot was fired.

So Mr. Cakebread, how could Oswald be in the "shower" as you claim when testimony proves Oswald was in fact in the lunch room seen by a cop and his boss? And don't forget Jarman and Norman possibly saw Oswald as well.     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 06:16:42 AM
More speculation and no factual evidence.

Junior Jarman and Harold Norman walked through that second floor lunch room and remembered that there was “someone else in there”. When Oswald was being interrogated, he remembered two black employees walking through the lunch room while he was inside the room.

Also, a Dallas police officer and Oswald’s boss testified seeing Oswald in that same lunch room less than 80-seconds after the last shot was fired.

So Mr. Cakebread, how could Oswald be in the "shower" as you claim when testimony proves Oswald was in fact in the lunch room seen by a cop and his boss? And don't forget Jarman and Norman possibly saw Oswald as well.   

Junior Jarman and Harold Norman walked through that second floor lunch room and remembered that there was “someone else in there”.
Psst Mr Plant....Put the cork back in the bottle and go get some sleep....  When you're awake and sober I'm sure that you'll find that Jarman and Norman walked past the windows of the 1st floor lunchroom....That's the FIRST FLOOR lunchroom....They were never close to the second floor lunchroom.  You really need to stay the hell out of things that you know nothing about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 06:25:00 AM
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

"I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone. He just went about his work."            Bonnie Ray Williams


Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink.
Whats that? Not one witness put him on the steps that day? Not one of those stood with him or the many coming back up the steps? Not one?
You do surprise me.

WUP   ???

I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues

I believe hat you've got the wrong impression ( probably because you are biased and believe that Lee was  the assassin.)

In reality Lee kept to himself because he believed that he was working undercover for the FBI and he didn't want people prying into his life.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 23, 2021, 09:53:30 AM
I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues

I believe hat you've got the wrong impression ( probably because you are biased and believe that Lee was  the assassin.)

Mr O'Meara is a member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps because he doesn't want Mr Oswald to have an alibi for the shooting of JFK.

Mr Cakebread is a member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps because he wants Mr Oswald to not want Mr Oswald to have an alibi for the shooting of JFK.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 03:37:09 PM
Mr O'Meara is a member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps because he doesn't want Mr Oswald to have an alibi for the shooting of JFK.

Mr Cakebread is a member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps because he wants Mr Oswald to not want Mr Oswald to have an alibi for the shooting of JFK.

Mr Cakebread is a member of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps because he wants Mr Oswald to not want Mr Oswald to have an alibi for the shooting of JFK.

No, Mr Cakebread  knows without any doubt that Lee had an airtight alibi, which was corroborated by two TSBD employees....

Lee told the interrogators that he saw Jarman and Norman as they walked past the 1st floor lunchroom (Domino room ) at 12:26....Those two employees verified that they had in fact walked by the Domino Room at 12:26.    Lee also told the interrogators that after he witnessed those two guys depart the first floor on the west elevator at about 12:28 he went to the second floor lunchroom at about 12:29....and he was in that second floor lunchroom at 12:31 when DPD police officer Marrion Baker saw him there.
It's true that nobody saw Lee at 12:30 ....but anybody with good sense would realize that Lee couldn't have been behind the sixth floor window at 12:30.    And furthermore spectators on the street below saw a man behind the sixth floor window at the very time that Lee was sitting and eating his lunch in the Domino room, before Jarman and Norman walked by.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 03:39:02 PM
More speculation and no factual evidence.

Junior Jarman and Harold Norman walked through that second floor lunch room and remembered that there was “someone else in there”. When Oswald was being interrogated, he remembered two black employees walking through the lunch room while he was inside the room.

Also, a Dallas police officer and Oswald’s boss testified seeing Oswald in that same lunch room less than 80-seconds after the last shot was fired.

So Mr. Cakebread, how could Oswald be in the "shower" as you claim when testimony proves Oswald was in fact in the lunch room seen by a cop and his boss? And don't forget Jarman and Norman possibly saw Oswald as well.   

Mr Plant...You are not worth debating....You have the facts all jumbled up ....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 23, 2021, 03:53:58 PM
LHO places himself above the 2nd floor during the shooting and he comes down where he encounters Trully and Baker. Interesting that a Marine seems to have no knowledge of shots being fired. Seriously, "commotion?"

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion--
he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 23, 2021, 04:18:13 PM
LHO places himself above the 2nd floor during the shooting and he comes down where he encounters Trully and Baker. Interesting that a Marine seems to have no knowledge of shots being fired. Seriously, "commotion?"

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion--
he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.



Oswald doesn't place himself above the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting. His reference to sending the elevator back up is obviously a reference to the 6th floor crew on their way down. This happened about 11:45-11:50am.
The next we hear of Oswald is down on the first floor talking to Eddie Piper around 12:00
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 23, 2021, 05:16:50 PM


Oswald doesn't place himself above the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting. His reference to sending the elevator back up is obviously a reference to the 6th floor crew on their way down. This happened about 11:45-11:50am.
The next we hear of Oswald is down on the first floor talking to Eddie Piper around 12:00

At the time of the shooting his reference is that he is inside the building and comes down the stairs to go outside. After the lunchroom encounter with Trully and Baker.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 23, 2021, 06:10:25 PM
At the time of the shooting his reference is that he is inside the building and comes down the stairs to go outside. After the lunchroom encounter with Trully and Baker.

I agree.
According to Holmes Oswald seems to be saying he was on the second floor at the time of the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 23, 2021, 07:13:59 PM
I agree.
According to Holmes Oswald seems to be saying he was on the second floor at the time of the shooting.

After the "commotion" He went downstairs where he met Trully and Baker, which is known to have taken place on the second floor. He came down the stairs to be where he was already was located. He should have used himself as an alibi and claimed he seen himself standing there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2021, 08:01:19 PM
Fritz wrote his notes several days up to a week later when all the important information escaped his mind.

From the memo of Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, on page 636 of the WR.

Captain Fritz then asked him (LHO) about the ID card .........And he flared up and said " I told you all I'm going to about that card, YOU TOOK NOTES, just read them for yourself if you want to refresh your memory" 

Holmes is reporting that Lee noticed that Fritz was taking notes during the interrogation....

Do you still believe that Fritz scribbled those notes several days after the interrogation?   Perhaps you should watch a few episodes of the TV program "The First 48"and take note that the interrogating officers always have a pen and paper and record the suspects answers to their questions...   That is simply basic procedure in all police departments.  i
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 23, 2021, 08:11:30 PM
From the memo of Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, on page 636 of the WR.

Captain Fritz then asked him (LHO) about the ID card .........And he flared up and said " I told you all I'm going to about that card, YOU TOOK NOTES, just read them for yourself if you want to refresh your memory" 

Holmes is reporting that Lee noticed that Fritz was taking notes during the interrogation....

Do you still believe that Fritz scribbled those notes several days after the interrogation?   Perhaps you should watch a few episodes of the TV program "The First 48"and take note that the interrogating officers always have a pen and paper and record the suspects answers to their questions...   That is simply basic procedure in all police departments.  i

"Fritz then asked him (LHO) about the ID card .........And he flared up and said " I told you all I'm going to about that card, YOU TOOK NOTES, just read them for yourself if you want to refresh your memory" 

Wow. Hadn't spotted that before Walt.
That really puts the cat amongst the pigeons.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 23, 2021, 08:36:17 PM
At the time of the shooting his reference is that he is inside the building and comes down the stairs to go outside. After the lunchroom encounter with Trully and Baker.

Except-----------Postal Inspector Holmes recalls Mr Oswald putting the encounter "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".

Which, quite by coincidence, is exactly where DPD's first dispatches to the press 11/22 put the encounter-------and where Mr Billy Lovelady told Mr James Jarman he saw an Oswald-Officer-Truly encounter.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 23, 2021, 10:02:58 PM
Except-----------Postal Inspector Holmes recalls Mr Oswald putting the encounter "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".

Which, quite by coincidence, is exactly where DPD's first dispatches to the press 11/22 put the encounter-------and where Mr Billy Lovelady told Mr James Jarman he saw an Oswald-Officer-Truly encounter.

 Thumb1:

Where is Lovelady talking about an encounter? He is not even on the steps, instead he is looking back from 75 feet away and saw them enter the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Quote the DPD Dispatches.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 23, 2021, 10:18:37 PM
Where is Lovelady talking about an encounter? He is not even on the steps, instead he is looking back from 75 feet away and saw them enter the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Quote the DPD Dispatches.

He told a very different story to Mr James Jarman shortly after the assassination (see Mr Jarman's HSCA interview)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 23, 2021, 10:30:21 PM
He told a very different story to Mr James Jarman shortly after the assassination (see Mr Jarman's HSCA interview)

I think the point Jack is making is that this is clearly a  BS: story as Lovelady was outside the TSBD when this supposed encounter took place.
How could Lovelady have seen the encounter when he wasn't there?
It's a simple question
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 23, 2021, 10:32:44 PM
I think the point Jack is making is that this is clearly a  BS: story as Lovelady was outside the TSBD when this supposed encounter took place.
How could Lovelady have seen the encounter when he wasn't there?
It's a simple question

And it has a simple answer: Mr Lovelady was on the steps, and the encounter took place at the front door
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 23, 2021, 11:51:38 PM
Well, there’s that Lovelady in the Couch film GIF somewhere if someone would like to post that so that Mr.Ford can decide if that bald spot man with shirt pattern is Lovelady or not.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 01:43:58 AM
And it has a simple answer: Mr Lovelady was on the steps, and the encounter took place at the front door

the encounter took place at the front door

Didn't Baker say that as he "entered the building".?...Words that indicated that he was already INSIDE the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 24, 2021, 01:49:10 AM
the encounter took place at the front door

Didn't Baker say that as he "entered the building".?...Words that indicated that he was already INSIDE the building.

According to Holmes Oswald said:

"I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door..."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 24, 2021, 02:36:13 AM
And it has a simple answer: Mr Lovelady was on the steps, and the encounter took place at the front door

The were other people inside the foyer and not one witness to a policeman sticking a gun into LHO's stomach. Not one. Lovelady makes no reference to an encounter despite observing the office enter the building. The encounter took place on the second floor lunchroom just as stated and where there was only LHO, Baker and Truly. LHO admits to the encounter. Not one person saw LHO on the first floor or LHO exit the building despite all the employees gathered near the entrance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 24, 2021, 03:41:48 AM
The were other people inside the foyer and not one witness to a policeman sticking a gun into LHO's stomach. Not one. Lovelady makes no reference to an encounter despite observing the office enter the building. The encounter took place on the second floor lunchroom just as stated and where there was only LHO, Baker and Truly. LHO admits to the encounter. Not one person saw LHO on the first floor or LHO exit the building despite all the employees gathered near the entrance.

The were other people inside the foyer and not one witness to a policeman sticking a gun into LHO's stomach.

Who were the other people in the foyer?

Lovelady makes no reference to an encounter despite observing the office enter the building.

Lovelady did not enter the building.

The encounter took place on the second floor lunchroom just as stated

Who stated that? Baker, in his initial affidavit, said the encounter took place on the 3rd or 4th floor

LHO admits to the encounter.

According to the reports...

Not one person saw LHO on the first floor or LHO exit the building despite all the employees gathered near the entrance.

So, how do you know he exited the building through the front door?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 04:15:11 AM
According to Holmes Oswald said:

"I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door..."

That would indicate that Lee and Baker met INSIDE the TSBD....However, I  believe Lee and Baker met only in the second floor lunchroom..... Holmes didn't know what he was talking about.... He'd heard about Baker encountering Lee In the TSBD and mis construed the information.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 04:23:16 AM
The were other people inside the foyer and not one witness to a policeman sticking a gun into LHO's stomach. Not one. Lovelady makes no reference to an encounter despite observing the office enter the building. The encounter took place on the second floor lunchroom just as stated and where there was only LHO, Baker and Truly. LHO admits to the encounter. Not one person saw LHO on the first floor or LHO exit the building despite all the employees gathered near the entrance.


Not one person saw LHO on the first floor or LHO exit the building despite all the employees gathered near the entrance.

It's true that nobody reported seeing Lee on the first floor at the pertinent time....BUT...  Lee DID report seeing a couple of fellow employees on the first floor at the pertinent time.....  He could not have known that Jarman and Norman walked by the Domino room if he hadn't been there to witness them enter the shipping room at the back door .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 24, 2021, 08:43:05 AM
LHO stated every possible scenario from eating with the colored boys to eating alone to not eating at all. He always claimed to have exited from the front of the building. He admits to the lunchroom encounter with Trully and Baker. Ultimately LHO also states to Inspector Holmes he was finishing up his work when the commotion started which brought him down from the upper portion of the building and the encounter with Trully and Baker.

====================

Appendix XI - Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

Report of Capt. J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police Department
Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald
When asked what he did with his clothing, he took off when he got home, he said he put them in the dirty clothes. in talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed, he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know.
---------------------------------------
Reports of Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
Federal Bureau of Investigation - Report #1

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

-------------------------------------

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Report #3

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room.

------------------------------

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Report #4

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize

--------------------------------------------------------

 


Reports of Inspector Thomas J. Kelley, U.S. Secret Service
First Interview of lee Harvey Oswald

He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.


-------------------------------------------

U.S. Secret Service- Preliminary Special Dallas Report #3
November 29, 1963

He said when he was standing in front of the Textbook Building and about to leave it, a young crew-cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service, showed a book of identification, and asked him where the phone was. Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left.

-------------------------------------------------

Report of U.S. Postal Inspector H.D. Holmes

"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
Modify message
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 10:03:15 AM
The were other people inside the foyer

How do you know there were several people "standing around" (Officer Baker affidavit) inside the foyer ~30 seconds after the shooting? Who could they have been?

Quote
and not one witness to a policeman sticking a gun into LHO's stomach.

How many witnesses on those steps do we have to an officer storming in ~30 seconds after the shooting?

Quote
Not one. Lovelady makes no reference to an encounter despite observing the office enter the building.

He lied in his on-the-record statements. Just as Mr Shelley lied in his post-affidavit statements about his movements immediately after the assassination.

And what Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman chimes with what DPD were telling the press 11/22.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 10:06:22 AM
LHO stated every possible scenario from eating with the colored boys to eating alone to not eating at all. He always claimed to have exited from the front of the building. He admits to the lunchroom encounter with Trully and Baker. Ultimately LHO also states to Inspector Holmes he was finishing up his work when the commotion started which brought him down from the upper portion of the building and the encounter with Trully and Baker.

====================

Appendix XI - Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

Report of Capt. J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police Department
Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald
When asked what he did with his clothing, he took off when he got home, he said he put them in the dirty clothes. in talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed, he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know.
---------------------------------------
Reports of Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
Federal Bureau of Investigation - Report #1

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

-------------------------------------

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Report #3

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room.

------------------------------

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Report #4

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize

--------------------------------------------------------

 


Reports of Inspector Thomas J. Kelley, U.S. Secret Service
First Interview of lee Harvey Oswald

He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.


-------------------------------------------

U.S. Secret Service- Preliminary Special Dallas Report #3
November 29, 1963

He said when he was standing in front of the Textbook Building and about to leave it, a young crew-cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service, showed a book of identification, and asked him where the phone was. Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left.

-------------------------------------------------

Report of U.S. Postal Inspector H.D. Holmes

"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
Modify message

Quite extraordinary that you leave this out-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 10:09:33 AM
Well, there’s that Lovelady in the Couch film GIF somewhere if someone would like to post that so that Mr.Ford can decide if that bald spot man with shirt pattern is Lovelady or not.

I don't believe that the man we see passing out Mr Danny Arce in Couch is Mr Lovelady.

I believe Darnell shows Mr Lovelady still on the steps--------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/8b/0b/GIsvirZj_o.jpg)

As for Mr Lovelady's supposed companion in his westward travels, Mr Shelley, well he told one story in his affidavit and a completely different one thereafter.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on January 24, 2021, 11:17:11 AM
Junior Jarman and Harold Norman walked through that second floor lunch room and remembered that there was “someone else in there”.
Psst Mr Plant....Put the cork back in the bottle and go get some sleep....  When you're awake and sober I'm sure that you'll find that Jarman and Norman walked past the windows of the 1st floor lunchroom....That's the FIRST FLOOR lunchroom....They were never close to the second floor lunchroom.  You really need to stay the hell out of things that you know nothing about.

 :D :D :D

Says Walt who thought Fritz took notes during the interrogation. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 01:46:12 PM
:D :D :D

Says Walt who thought Fritz took notes during the interrogation.

Captain Fritz's 'notes' were not taken during the interrogation----------they were scribbled while listening to playback of dictated reports made by Agent Bookhout.

Compare:

Fritz 'notes':

claims 2nd Floor Coke when
off came in
to 1st fl had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in
front
left wk opinion nothing be
done that day etc.
? punch clock
8-8/45 were not
rigid abt time
wked reg. 1st Fl.
but all over

Agent Bookhout:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL SHELLEY, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building.
...
OSWALD stated that his hours of work at the Texas School Book Depository are from 8 a.m. to 4:45 p.m., but that he is not required to punch a time clock. His usual place of work in the building is on the first floor; however he frequently is required to go to the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh floors of the building in order to get books and this was true on November 22, 1963, and he had been on all of the floors in the performance of his duties on November 22, 1963.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 03:19:06 PM
:D :D :D

Says Walt who thought Fritz took notes during the interrogation.

From the memo of Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, on page 636 of the WR.

Captain Fritz then asked him (LHO) about the ID card .........And he flared up and said " I told you all I'm going to about that card, YOU TOOK NOTES, just read them for yourself if you want to refresh your memory"

Well Mr P, .....The man who was being interrogated saw Fritz taking notes,  And he told Fritz to refer to the notes that he had taken...and Postal Inspector Harry Holmes heard Lee say that to Captain Fritz.  You really should extract your head, so that you can see what's  right in front of you.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 03:36:10 PM
Mr Pierce Allman, Sixth Floor Museum interview:

"I... went up the steps of the Depository building and there was a guy in the doorway and I ran up to him and asked him where a phone was, and he jerked his thumb and said 'In there'. I thanked him and went on in."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 03:46:55 PM
Mr Pierce Allman, Sixth Floor Museum interview:

"I... went up the steps of the Depository building and there was a guy in the doorway and I ran up to him and asked him where a phone was, and he jerked his thumb and said 'In there'. I thanked him and went on in."

When  PRECISELY  did Pierce Allman run to the TSBD steps??   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 03:54:08 PM
Mr Pierce Allman, Sixth Floor Museum interview:

"I... went up the steps of the Depository building and there was a guy in the doorway and I ran up to him and asked him where a phone was, and he jerked his thumb and said 'In there'. I thanked him and went on in."

1/ Mr Oswald is on the front steps at the time of the assassination

2/ Officer Baker comes charging up, and asks him if he works here (---->he needs someone to point him to the nearest stairs)

3/ Mr Truly comes up and offers to escort Officer Baker

4/ Shortly after this, Ms Reid comes up the steps; Mr Oswald (with Coke still in hand) asks her, 'What's all the excitement about?'; she tells him someone has shot the President

5/ Shortly after this, Mr Allman comes up the steps and asks Mr Oswald----who is still in the doorway----where a phone is; Mr Oswald tells him 'In there'

6/ Mr Oswald descends the steps and goes out into the street to check out the commotion
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 04:17:38 PM
Captain Fritz's 'notes' were not taken during the interrogation----------they were scribbled while listening to playback of dictated reports made by Agent Bookhout.

Compare:

Fritz 'notes':

claims 2nd Floor Coke when
off came in
to 1st fl had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in
front
left wk opinion nothing be
done that day etc.
? punch clock
8-8/45 were not
rigid abt time
wked reg. 1st Fl.
but all over

Agent Bookhout:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL SHELLEY, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building.
...
OSWALD stated that his hours of work at the Texas School Book Depository are from 8 a.m. to 4:45 p.m., but that he is not required to punch a time clock. His usual place of work in the building is on the first floor; however he frequently is required to go to the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh floors of the building in order to get books and this was true on November 22, 1963, and he had been on all of the floors in the performance of his duties on November 22, 1963.

What a shame....  You're never going to move up to the forefront of this marathon , Mr Ford..... Because you hamper yourself with that back pack full of Bull s---
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 24, 2021, 04:56:44 PM
Quite extraordinary that you leave this out-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)

If it was the truth he would have kept repeating it and the other employees would have stated it was true. Instead he changes his story to finally being on the upper floors working during the assassination and only coming down to see what was causing the "commotion".  A marine who doesn't know what the sound of gunfire sounds like. His ever changing story places him all over the inside of the building but never in verifiable company of anyone else. The coke on the second floor and the encounter with Baker and Trully is LHO's only constant. An encounter that was the result of him coming down the stairs to see what the commotion was all about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 05:23:10 PM
If it was the truth he would have kept repeating it and the other employees would have stated it was true. Instead he changes his story to finally being on the upper floors working during the assassination and only coming down to see what was causing the "commotion".  A marine who doesn't know what the sound of gunfire sounds like. His ever changing story places him all over the inside of the building but never in verifiable company of anyone else. The coke on the second floor and the encounter with Baker and Trully is LHO's only constant. An encounter that was the result of him coming down the stairs to see what the commotion was all about.

Jack, Lee Oswald never ever said that he had heard the shots fired.....And he did NOT say that he was on the upper floors and came down to see what the commotion was all about.   He wasn't even aware of any "commotion" until he returned to the first floor after the encounter with Baker in the second floor lunchroom.  When Baker came into the 2nd floor lunchroom Lee was a bit startled and it probably tweaked a mild curiosity which caused him to wonder "what the hell was that all about".....

After he returned to the first floor he probably noticed people entering the building and talking in alarmed or excited tones, and that's when he went outside to see what the commotion was all about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 24, 2021, 06:10:47 PM
Jack, Lee Oswald never ever said that he had heard the shots fired.....And he did NOT say that he was on the upper floors and came down to see what the commotion was all about.   He wasn't even aware of any "commotion" until he returned to the first floor after the encounter with Baker in the second floor lunchroom.  When Baker came into the 2nd floor lunchroom Lee was a bit startled and it probably tweaked a mild curiosity which caused him to wonder "what the hell was that all about".....

After he returned to the first floor he probably noticed people entering the building and talking in alarmed or excited tones, and that's when he went outside to see what the commotion was all about.
Report of U.S. Postal Inspector H.D. Holmes

"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs,

He would have heard the shots, the rifle was right by his right ear.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 06:31:19 PM
If it was the truth he would have kept repeating it and the other employees would have stated it was true.

So you accept that Mr Oswald did indeed tell Captain Fritz in that first interrogation session that he visited the second floor lunchroom before the motorcade, then went down to one to eat lunch, then "went outside to watch P. Parade". Excellent: this also commits you to accepting that his bombshell claim---------the single most important thing he said in that session----------was deep-sixed by your 'investigator' heroes whose every word you trust.

Let us now formally add Agent Hosty's same-day account to the top of the interrogation report excerpts you posted!  Thumb1:

Quote
Instead he changes his story to finally being on the upper floors working during the assassination and only coming down to see what was causing the "commotion".

Why on earth would he do something so mad? All he'd need do-------on your LNer scenario--------is say he was in the second floor lunchroom or the first floor domino room the whole time. There are no conceivable circumstances under which he would tell Captain Fritz, 'Ok ok, I was on one of the upper floors when the President passed the building'. A ludicrous suggestion!

Quote
A marine who doesn't know what the sound of gunfire sounds like. His ever changing story places him all over the inside of the building but never in verifiable company of anyone else. The coke on the second floor and the encounter with Baker and Trully is LHO's only constant.

A pity it's not Officer Baker's constant...

Besides, as already pointed out, your argument here is dreadfully weak and selective. Inspector Holmes, upon whose account you're relying 100%, is quite clear on where Mr Oswald places the encounter with Mr Truly and a cop: "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor". Which is where DPD themselves were telling the press 11/22 the encounter happened------and where Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman he saw the encounter happen.

Quote
An encounter that was the result of him coming down the stairs to see what the commotion was all about.

It depends on what 'leaving the building' means. Mr Oswald could have been referring to going down the front steps and out into the street. This is exactly what several people on those steps did.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 06:36:11 PM
Report of U.S. Postal Inspector H.D. Holmes

"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs,

He would have heard the shots, the rifle was right by his right ear.

A listing of those present at the only interrogation that Harry Holmes attended....Captain Will Fritz, Forrest Sorrells, Thomas J. Kelley, and four DPD Detectives.

Why didn't the other men who were present at the interrogation record it as Harry Holmes did??    Do you suspect that perhaps Holmes is a liar?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 24, 2021, 07:26:17 PM
So you accept that Mr Oswald did indeed tell Captain Fritz in that first interrogation session that he visited the second floor lunchroom before the motorcade, then went down to one to eat lunch, then "went outside to watch P. Parade". Excellent: this also commits you to accepting that his bombshell claim---------the single most important thing he said in that session----------was deep-sixed by your 'investigator' heroes whose every word you trust.

Let us now formally add Agent Hosty's same-day account to the top of the interrogation report excerpts you posted!  Thumb1:

Why on earth would he do something so mad? All he'd need do-------on your LNer scenario--------is say he was in the second floor lunchroom or the first floor domino room the whole time. There are no conceivable circumstances under which he would tell Captain Fritz, 'Ok ok, I was on one of the upper floors when the President passed the building'. A ludicrous suggestion!

A pity it's not Officer Baker's constant...

Besides, as already pointed out, your argument here is dreadfully weak and selective. Inspector Holmes, upon whose account you're relying 100%, is quite clear on where Mr Oswald places the encounter with Mr Truly and a cop: "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor". Which is where DPD themselves were telling the press 11/22 the encounter happened------and where Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman he saw the encounter happen.

It depends on what 'leaving the building' means. Mr Oswald could have been referring to going down the front steps and out into the street. This is exactly what several people on those steps did.

All of his statements should be relatively similar and they are not. It is not about one statement it is the sum total LHO's statements and how they evolved from having lunch with coworkers to not having lunch at all. He would have known his statements would not be corroborated and they weren't.  Media influence is not an issue as with other witness statements. He would have known his coworkers were having lunch on the first and second floor. He ultimately changes his story to distancing himself from contact with them based on him asking them to send the elevator back which was the truth. The other truth is the lunch room encounter which took place on the second floor. Which he states he descended down the stairs to the encounter. It did not take him long to abandon the idea he was ever outside let alone watching the parade. His later statements do not place him outside until he is leaving the area. No witnesses back up his lunch time story.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 08:28:43 PM
All of his statements should be relatively similar and they are not. It is not about one statement it is the sum total LHO's statements and how they evolved from having lunch with coworkers to not having lunch at all.

Do you believe, based on a comparison of Agent Hosty's and Agent Bookhout's respective solo reports, that Mr Oswald gave two completely different stories within one and the same interrogation (i.e. the first one @ 3:15pm 11/22)?

Quote
He would have known his statements would not be corroborated and they weren't.  Media influence is not an issue as with other witness statements. He would have known his coworkers were having lunch on the first and second floor. He ultimately changes his story to distancing himself from contact with them based on him asking them to send the elevator back which was the truth. The other truth is the lunch room encounter which took place on the second floor. Which he states he descended down the stairs to the encounter. It did not take him long to abandon the idea he was ever outside let alone watching the parade. His later statements do not place him outside until he is leaving the area. No witnesses back up his lunch time story.

None of this 'I believe the authorities' spiel addresses a single point I made. You are just ignoring anything that doesn't fit your chosen story.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 08:44:16 PM
Do you believe, based on a comparison of Agent Hosty's and Agent Bookhout's respective solo reports, that Mr Oswald gave two completely different stories within one and the same interrogation (i.e. the first one @ 3:15pm 11/22)?

None of this 'I believe the authorities' spiel addresses a single point I made. You are just ignoring anything that doesn't fit your chosen story.

Now! Here are two different accounts of a key exchange during the morning 11/23 interrogation session---------

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple..."

Inspector Kelley, 11/23 interrogation report:
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as 'Junior', a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread, fruit, and apples..."

According to Mr Nessan's LNer interpretive methodology, the discrepancies between the two accounts are Mr Oswald's fault----------because he must have changed his story mid-session (a fact not noted by anyone present...)!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 24, 2021, 09:41:34 PM
If it was the truth he would have kept repeating it and the other employees would have stated it was true. Instead he changes his story to finally being on the upper floors working during the assassination and only coming down to see what was causing the "commotion".  A marine who doesn't know what the sound of gunfire sounds like. His ever changing story places him all over the inside of the building but never in verifiable company of anyone else. The coke on the second floor and the encounter with Baker and Trully is LHO's only constant. An encounter that was the result of him coming down the stairs to see what the commotion was all about.

'An encounter that was the result of him coming down the stairs to see what the commotion was all about'.
>>> An encounter that was the result of him leaving the scene of his crime after the commotion he caused.

There ya go.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 09:54:07 PM
It depends on what 'leaving the building' means. Mr Oswald could have been referring to going down the front steps and out into the street. This is exactly what several people on those steps did.

And it would appear that this is exactly what Mr Oswald DID mean. Inspector Kelley's report on the same Sunday morning interrogation has Mr Oswald tell of a young crew-cut man rushing up to him "when he was standing in front of the Textbook building and about to leave it".

How can one be in front of a building without yet having left it? Easy-----------one is in the front entranceway!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2021, 10:02:33 PM
Now! Here are two different accounts of a key exchange during the morning 11/23 interrogation session---------

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple..."

Inspector Kelley, 11/23 interrogation report:
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as 'Junior', a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread, fruit, and apples..."

According to Mr Nessan's LNer interpretive methodology, the discrepancies between the two accounts are Mr Oswald's fault----------because he must have changed his story mid-session (a fact not noted by anyone present...)!

Excellent rebuttal , Mr Ford....

I asked you a couple of days back if Bookhout had scribbled in his notes that Lee had told them that he was eating his lunch ALONE in the first floor lunchroom, and you replied that you hadn't posted the notes....

Now you post the typed report of Bookhout.....

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone,

ALONE   Lee told them that he was ALONE in that lunchroom.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 10:44:24 PM
And it would appear that this is exactly what Mr Oswald DID mean. Inspector Kelley's report on the same Sunday morning interrogation has Mr Oswald tell of a young crew-cut man rushing up to him "when he was standing in front of the Textbook building and about to leave it".

How can one be in front of a building without yet having left it? Easy-----------one is in the front entranceway!  Thumb1:

This of course explains why Mr Oswald, when asked by a reporter "Were you in the building at the time?", just answered yes instead of getting into semantics: he had not left the building at the time but was in its front entrance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 24, 2021, 11:06:36 PM
Excellent rebuttal , Mr Ford....

I asked you a couple of days back if Bookhout had scribbled in his notes that Lee had told them that he was eating his lunch ALONE in the first floor lunchroom, and you replied that you hadn't posted the notes....

Now you post the typed report of Bookhout.....

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone,

ALONE   Lee told them that he was ALONE in that lunchroom.....

Yes. Then he took the remains of his lunch out front to watch the P. Parade. I believe that the Wiegman film shows him holding his Coke in one hand and some food (either apple or sandwich) in the other-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/bb/00/ynubhQu5_o.gif)

And the original Altgens 6 (taken just before this) showed him holding the Coke-------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/91/XeV4pAaH_o.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2021, 12:44:28 AM

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone,

ALONE   Lee told them that he was ALONE in that lunchroom.....

Yes. Then he took the remains of his lunch out front to watch the P. Parade. I believe that the Wiegman film shows him holding his Coke in one hand and some food (either apple or sandwich) in the other-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/bb/00/ynubhQu5_o.gif)



And the original Altgens 6 (taken just before this) showed him holding the Coke-------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/91/XeV4pAaH_o.gif)

Then he took the remains of his lunch out front to watch the P. Parade. I believe that the Wiegman film shows him holding his Coke in one hand and some food (either apple or sandwich) in the other-------------

No Alan....That's not correct....Lee said that he was ALONE in the lunchroom when he saw Jarman and Norman pass by....They were on the fifth floor at 12:28, so they couldn't have been passing by the Domino room at 12:30, When Altgen's 6 was taken.    Lee couldn't have seen them AFTER  12:27.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 25, 2021, 03:02:59 AM
Do you believe, based on a comparison of Agent Hosty's and Agent Bookhout's respective solo reports, that Mr Oswald gave two completely different stories within one and the same interrogation (i.e. the first one @ 3:15pm 11/22)?

None of this 'I believe the authorities' spiel addresses a single point I made. You are just ignoring anything that doesn't fit your chosen story.

I would hope in the same interegation it would be the same. They both wrote down the same words.

On one hand you want to believe LHO but very definitive to what statements, but also claim the detectives had an alterior motive by them keep asking the same questions but getting different answers. That is how the integations work. Same as the WC testimonies, the attorneys would always circle back to conflicting statements. Arnold Rowlands statement is an excellent example of that technique. So is LHO's integations about where he was during the assassination. Turns out he was upstairs and came down to the encounter with Baker and Trully.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
I would hope in the same interegation it would be the same. They both wrote down the same words.

On one hand you want to believe LHO but very definitive to what statements, but also claim the detectives had an alterior motive by them keep asking the same questions but getting different answers. That is how the integations work. Same as the WC testimonies, the attorneys would always circle back to conflicting statements. Arnold Rowlands statement is an excellent example of that technique. So is LHO's integations about where he was during the assassination. Turns out he was upstairs and came down to the encounter with Baker and Trully.

Turns out he was upstairs and came down to the encounter with Baker and Trully.

Nobody saw Lee dashing across he sixth floor or down the stairs....And there were many people who would have heard him or saw him if he had traveled from the SE corner of the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom, including Vicky Adams and her friend Sandra Styles, who were on the stairs at the time that Lee would have had to have used those stairs.

Do you also enjoy other fairytales Mr Nessan?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 25, 2021, 09:18:50 AM
Then he took the remains of his lunch out front to watch the P. Parade. I believe that the Wiegman film shows him holding his Coke in one hand and some food (either apple or sandwich) in the other-------------

No Alan....That's not correct....Lee said that he was ALONE in the lunchroom when he saw Jarman and Norman pass by....They were on the fifth floor at 12:28, so they couldn't have been passing by the Domino room at 12:30, When Altgen's 6 was taken.    Lee couldn't have seen them AFTER  12:27.

Huh? Mr Oswald said he saw them before he went outside to watch the P. Parade. He did not say 'I saw them just as Altgens 6 was being taken'!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 25, 2021, 09:26:09 AM
I would hope in the same interegation it would be the same. They both wrote down the same words.

Nope! Agent Hosty has Mr Oswald put himself in the lunchroom pre-motorcade, Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"--------and adds the Baker/Truly encounter to Mr Oswald's story.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 25, 2021, 10:28:53 AM
Nope! Agent Hosty has Mr Oswald put himself in the lunchroom pre-motorcade, Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"--------and adds the Baker/Truly encounter to Mr Oswald's story.

There is no consistency in his statement. LHO tells Kelley he ate with the colored boys, He tells Bookhout he ate alone. He tells Hosty he went outside to watch the parade after eating lunch and getting a coke from the 2nd floor. He tells Holmes he went out to see what the commotion was about after the assassination. LHO tells Bookout he ate lunch after the assassination and after the lunchroom encounter. LHO places the lunch room encounter before the assassination in the Bookhout interrogation and does not mention it to Kelley. LHO tells Holmes he was still working at the time of the assassination. LHO never told the same story twice. Through it all LHO never once mentions hearing shots.


Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple..."

Agent Bookhout:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL SHELLEY, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building.
...
OSWALD stated that his hours of work at the Texas School Book Depository are from 8 a.m. to 4:45 p.m., but that he is not required to punch a time clock. His usual place of work in the building is on the first floor; however he frequently is required to go to the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh floors of the building in order to get books and this was true on November 22, 1963, and he had been on all of the floors in the performance of his duties on November 22, 1963.

Inspector Kelley, 11/23 interrogation report:
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as 'Junior', a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread, fruit, and apples..."

Agent Hosty
O stated he was present for work at the TSBD on the morning of 11/22 and at noon went to lunch. He went to the 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to the 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch P parade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 25, 2021, 01:01:59 PM
Yes. Then he took the remains of his lunch out front to watch the P. Parade. I believe that the Wiegman film shows him holding his Coke in one hand and some food (either apple or sandwich) in the other-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/bb/00/ynubhQu5_o.gif)

And the original Altgens 6 (taken just before this) showed him holding the Coke-------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/91/XeV4pAaH_o.gif)

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I can't believe you've gone public with your Black Oswald theory.
For those of you not familiar with Mr Ford's track record with 'tampering the evidence' let me explain.
He is using this really 'bleached out' version of Altgens 6 to "prove" there is a white arm holding a bottle of Coca-Cola (please don't ask how he knows it's a bottle of Coke). Note - look how white the ladies at the bottom of the picture look.

Somehow he knows this 'white arm' belongs to Oswald ( :D :D :D)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0311KmD/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

As insane as this appears to be, you ain't seen nothin' yet folks. Below is a close-up from a 'normal' version of Altgens 6. In it we can see the arm is not white at all, if anything, it belongs to a black person, hence Mr Ford's Black Oswald theory.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VN8kcShM/altgens-close-arm-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

But there's more. Mr Ford is convinced the Wiegman film has been altered. According to his theory, the shadow we see cast down the left side of Lovelady as we look at it, has been added to disguise the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt. (The shadow, by the way is obviously the edge of the wall of the front entrance, but don't tell Alan that).
Now why has this pic been altered to disguise the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt?
I'll let Alan tell you - prepare to have your mind blown  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkVkHfQQ/Wiegman-close.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2021, 04:01:33 PM
Huh? Mr Oswald said he saw them before he went outside to watch the P. Parade. He did not say 'I saw them just as Altgens 6 was being taken'!

12:26.....Lee is eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom, and he sees Jarman and Norman walking past the windows, and headed for the back door of the shipping room......
12:27 /12:28 Lee goes to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke.....

---12: 30  Ike Altgens snaps the shutter and takes Altgen's #6.....
 
12:31  Lee is spotted in the 2nd floor lunchroom by officer Baker and Roy Truly.....

12:32  Lee returns to the 1st floor with his coke and finishes his lunch

12:33  Lee heads for the front door to watch the P. Parade.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2021, 04:40:52 PM
Nope! Agent Hosty has Mr Oswald put himself in the lunchroom pre-motorcade, Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"--------and adds the Baker/Truly encounter to Mr Oswald's story.

Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"-

You're confused Mr F. .....    Bookhout thought that Baker was searching the TSBD when he saw Lee In the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Bookhout may have got that idea from Lee Oswald....  Lee may have assumed that Baker was searching the building, and in a way that is what Baker was doing.....( He said his eyes swept, searched, the various floors as they ascended the stairs, and that's how he spotted Lee Oswald.)  Lee simply assumed that Baker was searching the building and thus told Fritz that he was in the 2nd floor lunch room when the police searched the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 25, 2021, 06:15:17 PM
There is no consistency in his statement. LHO tells Kelley he ate with the colored boys, He tells Bookhout he ate alone.

No----the lack of consistency is entirely in the reports made of what he said. Remember: Inspector Kelley and Agent Bookhout are reporting on one and the same session, which they both attended! Does either of them indicate that Mr Oswald gave two completely different answers in that session?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 25, 2021, 06:27:27 PM
But there's more. Mr Ford is convinced the Wiegman film has been altered. According to his theory, the shadow we see cast down the left side of Lovelady as we look at it, has been added to disguise the fact Lovelady is wearing a long-sleeved shirt. (The shadow, by the way is obviously the edge of the wall of the front entrance, but don't tell Alan that).

Aha! It's taken you weeks and weeks and weeks to bring yourself to tell us that, Mr O'Meara. What a tremendous breakthrough!

So------------the shadow is the edge of the wall of the front entrance, is it?

Here's Mr Lovelady with the shadow down the right side of his body---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/95/32/cdMmjjGJ_o.jpg)

The green line here (a model of the doorway @ Darnell) shows where the shadowline actually fell at 12:30pm 11/22/63:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/cf/SjSbbYk0_o.jpg)

Now, Mr O'Meara-----------can you kindly indicate, using the image above, where on those steps you believe Mr Lovelady is standing in the Wiegman frame above?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 25, 2021, 06:28:18 PM
Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"-

You're confused Mr F. .....    Bookhout thought that Baker was searching the TSBD when he saw Lee In the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Bookhout may have got that idea from Lee Oswald....  Lee may have assumed that Baker was searching the building, and in a way that is what Baker was doing.....( He said his eyes swept, searched, the various floors as they ascended the stairs, and that's how he spotted Lee Oswald.)  Lee simply assumed that Baker was searching the building and thus told Fritz that he was in the 2nd floor lunch room when the police searched the building.

You're completely missing the point I was making, Mr Cakebread
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2021, 07:51:27 PM
You're completely missing the point I was making, Mr Cakebread

Agent Hosty has Mr Oswald put himself in the lunchroom pre-motorcade, Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"--------and adds the Baker/Truly encounter to Mr Oswald's story.

Hosty / Bookhout From page 619 of WR.   11/23/63

 "Oswald claimed that he went to lunch at approximately noon. and he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building."   

We don't know what Lee actually said.....Hosty and Bookhout may have misunderstood  or maybe Lee wasn't clear...

Lee could easily have started his lunch break at " approximately noon" ...But that doesn't mean that he started eating at that time....( As a matter of fact he couldn't have started eating at "approximately noon" in the Domino room because the lunchroom was filled with TSBD employees at that time, and nobody reported seeing Lee there in the lunchroom at that time.
By 12:15 all of the employees who had been eating their lunch in that lunchroom had departed ( see the various affidavits)

Furthermore...Lee was eating his lunch ALONE in that 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26 when Jarman and Norman passed by.

And he went to the 2nd floor to get a coke to drink with his lunch....He was seen by Baker and Truly while he was in that 2nd floor lunchroom .  Then he returned to the 1st floor Domino room to finish his lunch.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 25, 2021, 09:12:15 PM
Agent Hosty has Mr Oswald put himself in the lunchroom pre-motorcade, Agent Bookhout shifts the timeframe dramatically to "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building"--------and adds the Baker/Truly encounter to Mr Oswald's story.

Hosty / Bookhout From page 619 of WR.   11/23/63

 "Oswald claimed that he went to lunch at approximately noon. and he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building."   

We don't know what Lee actually said.....Hosty and Bookhout may have misunderstood  or maybe Lee wasn't clear...

Lee could easily have started his lunch break at " approximately noon" ...But that doesn't mean that he started eating at that time....( As a matter of fact he couldn't have started eating at "approximately noon" in the Domino room because the lunchroom was filled with TSBD employees at that time, and nobody reported seeing Lee there in the lunchroom at that time.
By 12:15 all of the employees who had been eating there lunch in that lunchroom had departed ( see the various affidavits)

Furthermore...Lee was eating his lunch ALONE in that 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26 when Jarman and Norman passed by.

And he went to the 2nd floor to get a coke to drink with his lunch....He was seen by Baker and Truly while he was in that 2nd floor lunchroom .  Then he returned to the 1st floor Domino room to finish his lunch.

All you have done here, Mr Cakebread, is find another way to miss the point I was making
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2021, 12:16:14 AM
All you have done here, Mr Cakebread, is find another way to miss the point I was making

No Alan, What I have done is clarify the information that you have jumbled .......
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 26, 2021, 02:30:32 AM
No----the lack of consistency is entirely in the reports made of what he said. Remember: Inspector Kelley and Agent Bookhout are reporting on one and the same session, which they both attended! Does either of them indicate that Mr Oswald gave two completely different answers in that session?

It is possible they weren't both there at the same time or the whole time. Very similar statements though. They are consistent in regards to the claim of the  presence of coworkers he is attempting to use as an alibi. What he admits to is the lunchroom encounter taking place on the second floor before he ate his lunch in the presence of the coworkers. An event he eventually states happened after he came down the stairs to see what the commotion was about. An event he eventually  claims happened after the assassination not before. By the end of his interrogation little doubt he is making stories up about his whereabouts during the assassination.

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple..."

Inspector Kelley, 11/23 interrogation report:
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as 'Junior', a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread, fruit, and apples..."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2021, 02:23:54 PM
It is possible they weren't both there at the same time or the whole time. Very similar statements though. They are consistent in regards to the claim of the  presence of coworkers he is attempting to use as an alibi. What he admits to is the lunchroom encounter taking place on the second floor before he ate his lunch in the presence of the coworkers. An event he eventually states happened after he came down the stairs to see what the commotion was about. An event he eventually  claims happened after the assassination not before. By the end of his interrogation little doubt he is making stories up about his whereabouts during the assassination.

Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple..."

Inspector Kelley, 11/23 interrogation report:
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as 'Junior', a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread, fruit, and apples..."

What he admits to is the lunchroom encounter taking place on the second floor before he ate his lunch in the presence of the coworkers.

Are you a simpleton, Mr Nessan ?    Are you unable to reason?....   

Lee Did NOT say that he had company while he was eating his lunch...He said he ate his lunch ALONE in the first floor lunchroom.   And he saw Jarman and Norman walk by the lunchroom while he was eating his lunch.   We have established as a fact that J &N did walk by that 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26.    All of Lee's fellow employees had already finished their lunches by 12:20,  and gone outside to watch the President's parade, and NOBODY ever said that they ate their lunch with Lee Oswald that day. 

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 26, 2021, 10:13:28 PM
Maybe the reason for the blackout of Loveladys right arm was because the original Altgens  negative would show his right arm NOT raised , NOT having sleeves rolled up, and MOST importantly : NO Soda bottle in the right hand!!

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 26, 2021, 10:17:38 PM
It is possible they weren't both there at the same time or the whole time. Very similar statements though.

Given that they report on Mr Oswald's responses to an identical sequence of questions, given that neither mentions anything about leaving the room at any point during the interrogation, it is highly unlikely they weren't both there at the same time or the whole time. Yet this highly unlikely scenario you take as fact because you want to blame the inconsistencies between the reports on Mr Oswald.

Quote
Agent Bookhout, 11/23 interrogation report:
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple..."

Inspector Kelley, 11/23 interrogation report:
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as 'Junior', a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread, fruit, and apples..."

This proves that Mr Oswald changed his story from 'I had one apple' to 'I had more than one apple', right?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 26, 2021, 10:19:21 PM
Maybe the reason for the blackout of Loveladys right arm was because the original Altgens  negative would show his right arm NOT raised , NOT having sleeves rolled up, and MOST importantly : NO Soda bottle in the right hand!!

But Mr Lovelady's right arm is out of the Altgens LOS
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 26, 2021, 11:19:47 PM
The significance of the unsleeved fore arm upraised with bottle in hand is basically ; Who else could the person be , other than Oswald?

The only other possibility was Lovelady , since he is the only other person out there on the front steps who has categorically stated in WC testimony of having bought coke from the 2nd floor machine just before he then went out to to the front steps

Imagine if that original negative of Altgens produced a clear print that showed not only the arm with bottle more clearly, but some portion of the white solid oval shaped Dr.Pepper label on bottle in that hand?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 27, 2021, 12:59:09 AM
The significance of the unsleeved fore arm upraised with bottle in hand is basically ; Who else could the person be , other than Oswald?

Indeed!

Quote
The only other possibility was Lovelady , since he is the only other person out there on the front steps who has categorically stated in WC testimony of having bought coke from the 2nd floor machine just before he then went out to to the front steps

And, disastrously for the 'investigating' authorities, Mr Lovelady is shown in Altgens and so cannot be the owner of that upraised arm. The years-long campaign by some CTers to convince folks that Mr Lovelady in Altgens is in fact Mr Oswald missed the point completely!

Quote
Imagine if that original negative of Altgens produced a clear print that showed not only the arm with bottle more clearly, but some portion of the white solid oval shaped Dr.Pepper label on bottle in that hand?

Mr Oswald said he bought a Coke in the second floor lunchroom--basically he did exactly what Mr Lovelady did
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 27, 2021, 03:10:33 AM
Well, Mr Ford, I congratulate you for convincing at least ME , that it’s not implausible that Oswald was there at the entrance steps of the TSBD.

Good luck with the REST of this forum .. LOL.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 08:38:31 AM
The significance of the unsleeved fore arm upraised with bottle in hand is basically ; Who else could the person be , other than Oswald?

The only other possibility was Lovelady , since he is the only other person out there on the front steps who has categorically stated in WC testimony of having bought coke from the 2nd floor machine just before he then went out to to the front steps

Imagine if that original negative of Altgens produced a clear print that showed not only the arm with bottle more clearly, but some portion of the white solid oval shaped Dr.Pepper label on bottle in that hand?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.
Mr. BALL - Did you come down the elevator?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.



So Lovelady went down on the elevator at 11:50, he then washed his hands, and went to the second floor to get a coke, and then returned to the first floor.  Let's say that he was back on the first floor at 12:00 noon, after buying his coke.  He then spotted Bill Shelly on the front steps talking to Sarah Stanton and decided to join them and eat his lunch on the steps.

The Altgen's #6 photo was taken at 12:30....   Do you really believe that It took Billy Lovelady a half hour to consume one of those small bottles of Coca-Cola??   Is that being realistic??
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 27, 2021, 04:32:48 PM
Well, Mr Ford, I congratulate you for convincing at least ME , that it’s not implausible that Oswald was there at the entrance steps of the TSBD.

Good luck with the REST of this forum .. LOL.

Thank you, Mr Mason!  Thumb1:

As for this forum's members of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps, I will take their skepticism seriously as soon as they come up with intelligent rebuttals--------------starting with a SERIOUS explanation for the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 27, 2021, 04:53:29 PM
No----the lack of consistency is entirely in the reports made of what he said. Remember: Inspector Kelley and Agent Bookhout are reporting on one and the same session, which they both attended! Does either of them indicate that Mr Oswald gave two completely different answers in that session?


There is no consistency. LHO changes the storyline with each telling. Finally his story evolves to him continuing to work and coming down from upstairs with no corroborating witnesses except for Trully and Baker. He even abandons the eating lunch storyline. His time in jail gave him time to think it through. The only time he was outside is when he was heading for the bus. It didn't take him long to give up the out front on the steps story.

LHO finally evolved the story to the what is the truth. He caused the commotion.

Holmes:  Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 27, 2021, 05:34:54 PM

There is no consistency. LHO changes the storyline with each telling. Finally his story evolves to him continuing to work and coming down from upstairs with no corroborating witnesses except for Trully and Baker. He even abandons the eating lunch storyline. His time in jail gave him time to think it through. The only time he was outside is when he was heading for the bus. It didn't take him long to give up the out front on the steps story.

LHO finally evolved the story to the what is the truth. He caused the commotion.

You never answered my question: why in the hell would Mr Oswald (guilty or innocent) say something so crazily self-incriminating? And why was this last-minute bombshell confession not proclaimed to the world after his death that Sunday morning?

Quote
Holmes:  Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.

So--------contrary to your early claim---------you don't believe Mr Oswald consistently confirmed a second floor lunchroom encounter. Because Postal Inspector Holmes, whose every word you trust, has him put it "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 27, 2021, 05:56:56 PM
You never answered my question: why in the hell would Mr Oswald (guilty or innocent) say something so crazily self-incriminating? And why was this last-minute bombshell confession not proclaimed to the world after his death that Sunday morning?

So--------contrary to your early claim---------you don't believe Mr Oswald consistently confirmed a second floor lunchroom encounter. Because Postal Inspector Holmes, whose every word you trust, has him put it "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".

You never answered my question: why in the hell would Mr Oswald (guilty or innocent) say something so crazily self-incriminating? And why was this last-minute bombshell confession not proclaimed to the world after his death that Sunday morning?

You never asked the question and there is no answer. Why does anyone do anything, but LHO did. Obviously his alibis were crumbling as they spoke to the coworkers. He wasn't just talking they were interacting with him.


So--------contrary to your early claim---------you don't believe Mr Oswald consistently confirmed a second floor lunchroom encounter. Because Postal Inspector Holmes, whose every word you trust, has him put it "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".


It is not contrary to any claim.

Holmes: "when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building."

No where in the statement does he state the encounter was on the first floor. You are reading that into it. He is once again confirming the lunch room encounter with Trully and Baker and then he left the building.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 07:19:46 PM
That would indicate that Lee and Baker met INSIDE the TSBD....However, I  believe Lee and Baker met only in the second floor lunchroom..... Holmes didn't know what he was talking about....

Then why do you think he knew what he was talking about with regard to Fritz taking notes?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 07:38:38 PM
There is no consistency in his statement. LHO tells Kelley he ate with the colored boys, He tells Bookhout he ate alone. He tells Hosty he went outside to watch the parade after eating lunch and getting a coke from the 2nd floor. He tells Holmes he went out to see what the commotion was about after the assassination. LHO tells Bookout he ate lunch after the assassination and after the lunchroom encounter. LHO places the lunch room encounter before the assassination in the Bookhout interrogation and does not mention it to Kelley. LHO tells Holmes he was still working at the time of the assassination. LHO never told the same story twice. Through it all LHO never once mentions hearing shots.

Are you under the strange impression that they all interviewed Oswald separately?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 27, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
You never answered my question: why in the hell would Mr Oswald (guilty or innocent) say something so crazily self-incriminating? And why was this last-minute bombshell confession not proclaimed to the world after his death that Sunday morning?

You never asked the question

Incorrect!-----see Reply #1120

Quote
and there is no answer. Why does anyone do anything, but LHO did.

Right, you can't explain why he would do such a crazy thing

Quote
Obviously his alibis were crumbling as they spoke to the coworkers. He wasn't just talking they were interacting with him.

So why did nobody in those interrogations ever offer the slightest indication that Mr Oswald changed his claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination? You think they wanted to protect Mr Oswald's good name?

Quote
So--------contrary to your early claim---------you don't believe Mr Oswald consistently confirmed a second floor lunchroom encounter. Because Postal Inspector Holmes, whose every word you trust, has him put it "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".


It is not contrary to any claim.

Holmes: "when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building."

No where in the statement does he state the encounter was on the first floor. You are reading that into it.

 :D

Mr Holmes is asked in his WC testimony where Mr Oswald located the encounter, and his answer is: "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor". He even goes on to describe the layout of that part of the building, despite never having set foot in it.

So---------what I'm reading into "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor" is: First floor, front entrance to the first floor. Kooky, huh?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 27, 2021, 07:46:58 PM
Are you under the strange impression that they all interviewed Oswald separately?

Mr Nessan is under a number of strange impressions, such as that Mr Oswald changed his story wildly--------and no one noticed him doing it. Maybe he had them hypnotized?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 07:48:49 PM
The Altgen's #6 photo was taken at 12:30....   Do you really believe that It took Billy Lovelady a half hour to consume one of those small bottles of Coca-Cola??   Is that being realistic??

Do you really believe that Shelley and Stanton were outside at noon?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 07:50:47 PM
You never answered my question: why in the hell would Mr Oswald (guilty or innocent) say something so crazily self-incriminating? And why was this last-minute bombshell confession not proclaimed to the world after his death that Sunday morning?

You never asked the question and there is no answer. Why does anyone do anything, but LHO did. Obviously his alibis were crumbling as they spoke to the coworkers. He wasn't just talking they were interacting with him.


So--------contrary to your early claim---------you don't believe Mr Oswald consistently confirmed a second floor lunchroom encounter. Because Postal Inspector Holmes, whose every word you trust, has him put it "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor".


It is not contrary to any claim.

Holmes: "when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building."

No where in the statement does he state the encounter was on the first floor. You are reading that into it. He is once again confirming the lunch room encounter with Trully and Baker and then he left the building.

Holmes: "when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building."

None of the three who were there  Truly, Baker, or  Lee Oswald ever said that Baker asked for identification.....Baker has testified that he called out to Lee...."Come Here"....  And about that time Roy Truly stated, "He's one of my employees". So Holmes isn't reporting the encounter correctly.  Also....the policeman had him step aside momentarily.

Nobody ever testified that Baker asked Lee to "step aside".....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 07:52:50 PM
Why would anybody look to Harry Holmes' testimony for reliable information about anything?

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.  He mentioned something about a coke."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 08:09:12 PM
Do you really believe that Shelley and Stanton were outside at noon?

Sure.....Why not?...  We don't know that it was exactly at the stoke of 12:00 O'clock, but Perhaps Sarah headed out to get a good position to view the Parade,  as soon as she was free to go to lunch, and Bill Shelley saw her and wanted to flirt a bit so he caught her at the front door and they started talking.....   Is that impossible?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 08:18:02 PM
Well, for one thing Shelley said he didn't go outside until 12:15.  Also, why would Shelley "flirt" with Sarah Stanton?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 27, 2021, 08:24:32 PM
Holmes: "when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building."

None of the three who were there  Truly, Baker, or  Lee Oswald ever said that Baker asked for identification.....

'Do you work here?' would be questioning him as to his identification.

Quote
Baker has testified that he called out to Lee...."Come Here"....  And about that time Roy Truly stated, "He's one of my employees". So Holmes isn't reporting the encounter correctly.  Also....the policeman had him step aside momentarily.

Nobody ever testified that Baker asked Lee to "step aside".....

Mr Holmes gets some things muddled
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 08:27:49 PM
Well, for one thing Shelley said he didn't go outside until 12:15.  Also, why would Shelley "flirt" with Sarah Stanton?

Are you serious??....     Do you think that Lovelady was lying when he casually recalled that when he returned to the first floor after buying his coke, he saw Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton talking at the front door of the TSBD.   I can't imagine why Lovelady would want to lie about something so mundane. And....   What man doesn't enjoy flirting with a pretty, young lady?   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 08:39:57 PM
Why would anybody look to Harry Holmes' testimony for reliable information about anything?

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.  He mentioned something about a coke."

Why would anybody look to Harry Holmes' testimony for reliable information about anything?

Oh, Oh, John....  This is not Good....    You took the words right out of my mouth....   You'll probably want to retract that statement, now that you know that we are in total accord and harmony.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 08:54:08 PM
'Do you work here?' would be questioning him as to his identification.

Mr Holmes gets some things muddled

'Do you work here?' would be questioning him as to his identification.

Really??  So the next time I get stopped by a traffic cop, He'll probably just ask if I live or work in the neighborhood? He won't ask for identification ???

Mr Holmes gets some things muddled

Mr Holmes gets some things muddled         You can say that again!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 09:26:50 PM
Are you serious??....     Do you think that Lovelady was lying when he casually recalled that when he returned to the first floor after buying his coke, he saw Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton talking at the front door of the TSBD.   I can't imagine why Lovelady would want to lie about something so mundane. And....   What man doesn't enjoy flirting with a pretty, young lady?   

You think Stanton was a "pretty young lady" do you?  To each his own, I guess...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 09:27:23 PM
Why would anybody look to Harry Holmes' testimony for reliable information about anything?

Oh, Oh, John....  This is not Good....    You took the words right out of my mouth....   You'll probably want to retract that statement, now that you know that we are in total accord and harmony.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 09:30:02 PM
Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

John ....Don't be so hard on yourself....   Nobody has said that you are like a broken clock.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 09:43:55 PM
You think Stanton was a "pretty young lady" do you?  To each his own, I guess...

How would I know if Bill Shelly viewed Sarah Stanton as a pretty, young, lady??   But on the other hand... How do you know that Shelley didn't see her in that light?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 10:02:34 PM
Well, for one thing, Stanton was 4 years older than Shelley.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 10:31:24 PM
Well, for one thing, Stanton was 4 years older than Shelley.

Soooo...??
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2021, 11:07:47 PM
I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm. Sarcasm can be seen as saying something that  is completely the opposite of what you actually mean as a way to emphasise what you actually mean. To clarify - I'm not actually asking you to believe that Oswald is out front with all his work colleagues interacting in a positive way with them as if he was a really sociable, easy-going guy. I'm actually saying the opposite thing. I honestly thought this would be totally clear as the whole post up to that moment was a litany of testimonial evidence demonstrating how Oswald was perceived as, for want of a better word, unsociable. Statement after statement clearly demonstrating (or so I thought) that Oswald didn't like the company of his work colleagues. As I thought it was blindingly obvious, in the light of the substantial amount of evidence on display, that Oswald would rather blow his own brains out than spend time with his work colleagues, I made up a non-existent, sarcastic scenario to emphasise this point. (when I say "blow his own brains out" this is not sarcasm, this is a 'figure of speech' and is not to be taken literally).
The addition of William Shelley in this scenario was an extrapolation made from Oswald's supposed testimony as recorded in Fritz's notes where he specifically singles out William Shelley - "out with Bill Shelley in front"
The bit at the end where I say "Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink" is also sarcasm. I'll keep it to a minimum if future.

"Where do you get "contempt"?"

If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

"Or he was just a shy introvert"

You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.
Oswald in an antisocial, arrogant loser.

The addition of William Shelley in this scenario was an extrapolation made from Oswald's supposed testimony as recorded in Fritz's notes where he specifically singles out William Shelley - "out with Bill Shelley in front"

Thank you< Mr O....  You've raised an interesting point.   On page 619 of the WR there is a copy of FBI agent Bookhout's report for 11 /22/63......( this is about the first interrogation session) 

In that first interrogation session Bookhout writes---" Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunchroom. He thereafter went outside and stood around with foreman Bill Lovelady ( erasure)  Shelly, and thereafter went home.   He stated that he left work because in his opinion   based on remarks of Bill Shelly ( erasure) He did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."

Question--- Why did Bookhout think the foreman's name was Lovelady, when Lee would obviously have referred to the Foreman as Bill Shelly.....( Bookhout did in fact erase the name Lovelady and typed over the erasing   ..the name "Shelly".

So during the first interrogation Bookhout somehow got confused about the foreman's name even though I'm fairly certain  that Lee would have used the name Bill Shelley ....OR ..Would he???   Is it possible that Lee did tell Fritz and Bookhout that he talked to Bill Lovelady....???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2021, 11:33:22 PM
Soooo...??

a 41-year-old, gray-haired, obese, married woman may be a "pretty young lady" to an 81-year-old like yourself, but to a 37-year-old, also married slender co-worker?  I'm skeptical.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2021, 01:13:36 AM
a 41-year-old, gray-haired, obese, married woman may be a "pretty young lady" to an 81-year-old like yourself, but to a 37-year-old, also married slender co-worker?  I'm skeptical.

OK... I mis-identified Sarah Stanton..... I thought that she was one of the slender, pretty, young, ladies that I've seen in photos of people on the front steps.

But that doesn't mean that Shelly didn't enjoy talkin to Stanton.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 28, 2021, 02:35:33 AM
Incorrect!-----see Reply #1120

Right, you can't explain why he would do such a crazy thing

So why did nobody in those interrogations ever offer the slightest indication that Mr Oswald changed his claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination? You think they wanted to protect Mr Oswald's good name?

 :D

Mr Holmes is asked in his WC testimony where Mr Oswald located the encounter, and his answer is: "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor". He even goes on to describe the layout of that part of the building, despite never having set foot in it.

So---------what I'm reading into "First floor. Front entrance to the first floor" is: First floor, front entrance to the first floor. Kooky, huh?

The encounter was on the second floor. It looks like there is a double set of doors leading from the 2nd floor stairs to the lunchroom. There is a little triangular shaped space between the doors. It was through those windows that Baker caught a glimpse of him and noticed him walking in the lunchroom. Apparently LHO thought the little space was called a vestibule.

Unless the coke machine is on the first floor he was stopped by the Baker on the second.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.


He states that LHO encountered the policeman while he was standing by the coke machine. There is not a coke machine on the first floor. The coke machine is on the second floor.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 28, 2021, 08:28:25 AM
The encounter was on the second floor. It looks like there is a double set of doors leading from the 2nd floor stairs to the lunchroom.

No, there are two doors, not two sets of doors. And no front part. Mr Oswald was describing the front entrance on the first floor.

Quote
There is a little triangular shaped space between the doors. It was through those windows that Baker caught a glimpse of him and noticed him walking in the lunchroom. Apparently LHO thought the little space was called a vestibule.

It appears Mr Oswald did use that word. Its primary meaning is front lobby, but it can also mean portico or front porch.

Mr Belin, during Mr Roy Truly's testimony, makes sure to misdescribe the space you refer to as a 'vestibule'.

Quote
Unless the coke machine is on the first floor he was stopped by the Baker on the second.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.


He states that LHO encountered the policeman while he was standing by the coke machine. There is not a coke machine on the first floor. The coke machine is on the second floor.

~Grin~ Your gift for tuning out uncongenial data is impressive, Mr Nessan!

Mr HOLMES. ... But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke .

Mr Holmes is certain about the front entrance to first floor part, a lot less so about the coke part ("Seems like he said... It seems as though...")

Mr Oswald did indeed mention something about a Coke--a Coke which he had bought from the machine up in the lunchroom before the motorcade and which he now had in his hand at the front entrance when the officer came storming up those steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 28, 2021, 10:25:59 AM
There was a Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor and apparently Dr. Pepper was Oswald's fav according to JFK assassination lore. But seems Oswald believed the TV spots and decided that 'things go better with Coca-Cola, things go better with Coke!'

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2021, 03:42:41 PM
No, there are two doors, not two sets of doors. And no front part. Mr Oswald was describing the front entrance on the first floor.

It appears Mr Oswald did use that word. Its primary meaning is front lobby, but it can also mean portico or front porch.

Mr Belin, during Mr Roy Truly's testimony, makes sure to misdescribe the space you refer to as a 'vestibule'.

~Grin~ Your gift for tuning out uncongenial data is impressive, Mr Nessan!

Mr HOLMES. ... But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke .

Mr Holmes is certain about the front entrance to first floor part, a lot less so about the coke part ("Seems like he said... It seems as though...")

Mr Oswald did indeed mention something about a Coke--a Coke which he had bought from the machine up in the lunchroom before the motorcade and which he now had in his hand at the front entrance when the officer came storming up those steps.

Alan ... What is it going to take to get you to extract your head?    Holmes statements are at odds with the statements of others who attended the same interrogation session.    Either Holmes misinterpreted  what Lee said, or Holmes deliberately screwed up the information.  ( I believe the latter)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2021, 05:32:36 PM
No, there are two doors, not two sets of doors. And no front part. Mr Oswald was describing the front entrance on the first floor.

It appears Mr Oswald did use that word. Its primary meaning is front lobby, but it can also mean portico or front porch.

Mr Belin, during Mr Roy Truly's testimony, makes sure to misdescribe the space you refer to as a 'vestibule'.

~Grin~ Your gift for tuning out uncongenial data is impressive, Mr Nessan!

Mr HOLMES. ... But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke .

Mr Holmes is certain about the front entrance to first floor part, a lot less so about the coke part ("Seems like he said... It seems as though...")

Mr Oswald did indeed mention something about a Coke--a Coke which he had bought from the machine up in the lunchroom before the motorcade and which he now had in his hand at the front entrance when the officer came storming up those steps.

Vestibule--- Any of several chambers or channels adjoining or connecting one space with another.   ie;  The vestibule between two railway passenger cars.

I wouldn't call the small hallway at the west end of the 2nd floor lunchroom a "vestibule" ( I'd call it a hall ) However some folks would call it a vestibule and they would be correct...because that hallway did in fact connect the 2nd floor office area with the lunchroom.   Incidentally....  I've noticed that nobody ever mentions the fact that there were two lunch rooms in the TSBD, just as there were separate  dining areas for "colored" and "white" in many public dining places in Dallas.  It appears to me that the 2nd floor lunch room was for white office workers and the first floor lunchroom was for the colored warehouse workers.   However the white warehouse workers could eat in the 1st floor lunchroom if they chose to....But.... I'll bet that a colored employee was not allowed to eat in the 2nd floor lunchroom.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 29, 2021, 03:50:24 AM
No, there are two doors, not two sets of doors. And no front part. Mr Oswald was describing the front entrance on the first floor.

It appears Mr Oswald did use that word. Its primary meaning is front lobby, but it can also mean portico or front porch.

Mr Belin, during Mr Roy Truly's testimony, makes sure to misdescribe the space you refer to as a 'vestibule'.

~Grin~ Your gift for tuning out uncongenial data is impressive, Mr Nessan!

Mr HOLMES. ... But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke .

Mr Holmes is certain about the front entrance to first floor part, a lot less so about the coke part ("Seems like he said... It seems as though...")

Mr Oswald did indeed mention something about a Coke--a Coke which he had bought from the machine up in the lunchroom before the motorcade and which he now had in his hand at the front entrance when the officer came storming up those steps.
He radically changed his story in this final interview. He abandoned the idea he ate lunch with or near the coworkers. He admitted to being on the upper floors during the assassination based on his continuing to work until he came downstairs because of th commotion and encountered Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom. I agree It is hard to believe he would do this but maybe the confusion of the interview played a part. In the end I really don't think LHO was that clever or an actual plan existed to assassinate JFK and for him to escape. It reinforces the idea it was totally spur of the moment

Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality, to the interrogation. One man would question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal questioning or interrogation.

The confusion of having a number of officials and the randomness of the questions may have placed LHO off guard. All that is reported is the answers never the questions or statements by the officials. It is entirely possible someone told him his coworkers denied seeing him at lunch either as a bluff or by actual knowledge causing LHO to alter his story. Ultimately he places himself as being alone and working upstairs until two verifiable encounters took place.

In todays world the request for an attorney would have ended the interview. Back then it does not appear to have mattered.

-------------------------------------------

The use of the word "vestibule' also seems to take Belin back. You can tell by his reaction. Because of a Catholic upbringing I immediately thought of the area prior to entering the church itself. Outside doors, a space(vestibule), and then more doors to the church. I also thought it was an odd way to describe it. Holmes did not seem to particularly agree with the use either.

The key to the Coke story is not LHO drinking one , but that he was physically standing by the machine itself when he was talking to Baker. That can only be accomplished if he is on the second floor.
----------------------------------------------
Your vocabulary is very impressive. I was forcedd to look up the definition of uncongenial  along with several others. Based on an engineering background, if you don't pay attention to the details, your newly constructed bridge just might fall into the river.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tacoma+bridge+collapse&docid=608045869369786645&mid=D8B80A1C110379BC596AD8B80A1C110379BC596A&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 29, 2021, 09:40:52 AM
He radically changed his story in this final interview. He abandoned the idea he ate lunch with or near the coworkers. He admitted to being on the upper floors during the assassination

A simply amazing admission for Mr Oswald to make---------made all the more amazing by the fact that no one familiar with Mr Oswald's claims to date even noticed the change in story!

All we've got here is Inspector Holmes compressing time (the break for lunch... what happened afterwards).

Quote
based on his continuing to work until he came downstairs because of th commotion and encountered Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

A simply amazing admission for Mr Oswald to make---------made all the more amazing by the fact that he was seen downstairs after folks broke for lunch!

Quote
I agree It is hard to believe he would do this but maybe the confusion of the interview played a part. In the end I really don't think LHO was that clever or an actual plan existed to assassinate JFK and for him to escape. It reinforces the idea it was totally spur of the moment

No, all it reinforces is the impression that you can't explain why Mr Oswald would make such a suicidal 'admission'

Quote
Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality, to the interrogation. One man would question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal questioning or interrogation.

The confusion of having a number of officials and the randomness of the questions may have placed LHO off guard. All that is reported is the answers never the questions or statements by the officials. It is entirely possible someone told him his coworkers denied seeing him at lunch either as a bluff or by actual knowledge causing LHO to alter his story. Ultimately he places himself as being alone and working upstairs until two verifiable encounters took place.

This is just speculation and wishful thinking, Mr Nessan

Quote
In todays world the request for an attorney would have ended the interview. Back then it does not appear to have mattered.

Really? Read Inspector Kelley's report on the Sunday morning interview!

Quote
-------------------------------------------

The use of the word "vestibule' also seems to take Belin back. You can tell by his reaction.

Hardly...

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


Two sets of doors... front part... first floor... front entrance.

Just like DPD were telling press on 11/22. Amazing coincidence!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 29, 2021, 02:17:07 PM
He radically changed his story in this final interview. He abandoned the idea he ate lunch with or near the coworkers. He admitted to being on the upper floors during the assassination based on his continuing to work until he came downstairs because of th commotion and encountered Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom. I agree It is hard to believe he would do this but maybe the confusion of the interview played a part. In the end I really don't think LHO was that clever or an actual plan existed to assassinate JFK and for him to escape. It reinforces the idea it was totally spur of the moment

Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality, to the interrogation. One man would question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal questioning or interrogation.

The confusion of having a number of officials and the randomness of the questions may have placed LHO off guard. All that is reported is the answers never the questions or statements by the officials. It is entirely possible someone told him his coworkers denied seeing him at lunch either as a bluff or by actual knowledge causing LHO to alter his story. Ultimately he places himself as being alone and working upstairs until two verifiable encounters took place.

In todays world the request for an attorney would have ended the interview. Back then it does not appear to have mattered.

-------------------------------------------

The use of the word "vestibule' also seems to take Belin back. You can tell by his reaction. Because of a Catholic upbringing I immediately thought of the area prior to entering the church itself. Outside doors, a space(vestibule), and then more doors to the church. I also thought it was an odd way to describe it. Holmes did not seem to particularly agree with the use either.

The key to the Coke story is not LHO drinking one , but that he was physically standing by the machine itself when he was talking to Baker. That can only be accomplished if he is on the second floor.
----------------------------------------------
Your vocabulary is very impressive. I was forcedd to look up the definition of uncongenial  along with several others. Based on an engineering background, if you don't pay attention to the details, your newly constructed bridge just might fall into the river.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tacoma+bridge+collapse&docid=608045869369786645&mid=D8B80A1C110379BC596AD8B80A1C110379BC596A&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

He admitted to being on the upper floors during the assassination based on his continuing to work until he came downstairs because of the commotion and encountered Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

No, that's not correct.....  Holmes reported that Lee said that, but NONE of the other listeners heard Lee say that.   Harry Holmes is the only one who reported Lee making such a insanely incriminating statement. 

I agree It is hard to believe he would do this but maybe the confusion of the interview played a part.

So you are smart enough to recognize that it's highly unlikely that Lee would say that ...and you continue to believe Holmes in spite of the fact that the other listeners never heard Lee say anything like that.

In the end I really don't think LHO was that clever or an actual plan existed to assassinate JFK and for him to escape. It reinforces the idea it was totally spur of the moment.

Why are you diverting from the official government approved tale?.....  The official tale says that the arch villain  Lee Harvey Oswald plotted the murder for months..... Starting with the order of a rifle in March of 1963,  from a mail order house, and using a false name.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 29, 2021, 02:35:50 PM
A simply amazing admission for Mr Oswald to make---------made all the more amazing by the fact that no one familiar with Mr Oswald's claims to date even noticed the change in story!

All we've got here is Inspector Holmes compressing time (the break for lunch... what happened afterwards).

A simply amazing admission for Mr Oswald to make---------made all the more amazing by the fact that he was seen downstairs after folks broke for lunch!

No, all it reinforces is the impression that you can't explain why Mr Oswald would make such a suicidal 'admission'

This is just speculation and wishful thinking, Mr Nessan

Really? Read Inspector Kelley's report on the Sunday morning interview!

Hardly...

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


Two sets of doors... front part... first floor... front entrance.

Just like DPD were telling press on 11/22. Amazing coincidence!

Alan, can't you understand that Holmes took the use of the word "vestibule" too literally?   As you have pointed out the primary meaning of the word "vestibule" means a space or compartment between the exterior front door and an interior front door.  The use of that word "vestibule", caused Holmes ( who had never been in the TSBD)  to visualize the event as taking place at the front door to the TSBD.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 29, 2021, 05:01:51 PM
A simply amazing admission for Mr Oswald to make---------made all the more amazing by the fact that no one familiar with Mr Oswald's claims to date even noticed the change in story!

All we've got here is Inspector Holmes compressing time (the break for lunch... what happened afterwards).

A simply amazing admission for Mr Oswald to make---------made all the more amazing by the fact that he was seen downstairs after folks broke for lunch!

No, all it reinforces is the impression that you can't explain why Mr Oswald would make such a suicidal 'admission'

This is just speculation and wishful thinking, Mr Nessan

Really? Read Inspector Kelley's report on the Sunday morning interview!

Hardly...

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


Two sets of doors... front part... first floor... front entrance.

Just like DPD were telling press on 11/22. Amazing coincidence!


 You are right, unbelievable, he was offered an attorney and to have him present when interviewed and continued on talking anyway. Proof of just how clever he was. You seriously can't imagine him incriminating himself the way he did. I believe his arrogance played a part in his admission. He simply thought he was smarter than he was. In the end he inadvertently stated he was on the upper floors during the assassination.

Kelley: Oswald stated that at various other times he had been thoroughly interrogated by the FBI; that they had used all the usual interrogation practices and all their standard operating procedure; that he was very familiar with interrogation, and he had no intention of answering any questions concerning any shooting; that he knew he did not have to answer them and that he would not answer any questions until he had been given counsel. He stated that the FBI had used their hard and soft approach to him, they used the buddy system; that he was familiar with all types of questioning and had no intention of making any statement. He said that in the past three weeks when the FBI had talked to his wife, they were abusive and impolite; that they had frightened his wife and he considered their activities obnoxious. He stated that he wanted to contact a Mr. Abt, a New York lawyer whom he did not know but who had defended the Smith Act "victims" in 1949 or 1950 in connection with a conspiracy against the Government; that Abt would understand what this case was all about and that he would give him an excellent defense. He stated in returning a question about his former addresses that he lived at 4907 magazine Street in New Orleans at one time and worked for the William Riley Company; that he was arrested in New Orleans for disturbing the peace and paid a $10 find while he was demonstrating for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; that he had a fight with some anti-Castro refugees and that they were released while he was fined.


The different interviewers just let him talk. The more he says the better. Let him hang himself and he finally did just that. All his interviews were a variation of the same story.

Someone did record his final alteration of the story. Holmes noted what he said and it is obvious you see the importance and significance of his change in his movements of the day. LHO's mistake was centered on him stating he came down after the "commotion" nothing more. LHO's story always had him in an encounter with Baker on the second floor following the assassination which he stated he came down the stairs to the encounter in the second floor lunchroom. At the time nobody had a clear view of the whole picture of the employees movements, today we do.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 29, 2021, 06:17:42 PM

 You are right, unbelievable, he was offered an attorney and to have him present when interviewed and continued on talking anyway. Proof of just how clever he was. You seriously can't imagine him incriminating himself the way he did. I believe his arrogance played a part in his admission. He simply thought he was smarter than he was. In the end he inadvertently stated he was on the upper floors during the assassination.

Kelley: Oswald stated that at various other times he had been thoroughly interrogated by the FBI; that they had used all the usual interrogation practices and all their standard operating procedure; that he was very familiar with interrogation, and he had no intention of answering any questions concerning any shooting; that he knew he did not have to answer them and that he would not answer any questions until he had been given counsel. He stated that the FBI had used their hard and soft approach to him, they used the buddy system; that he was familiar with all types of questioning and had no intention of making any statement. He said that in the past three weeks when the FBI had talked to his wife, they were abusive and impolite; that they had frightened his wife and he considered their activities obnoxious. He stated that he wanted to contact a Mr. Abt, a New York lawyer whom he did not know but who had defended the Smith Act "victims" in 1949 or 1950 in connection with a conspiracy against the Government; that Abt would understand what this case was all about and that he would give him an excellent defense. He stated in returning a question about his former addresses that he lived at 4907 magazine Street in New Orleans at one time and worked for the William Riley Company; that he was arrested in New Orleans for disturbing the peace and paid a $10 find while he was demonstrating for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; that he had a fight with some anti-Castro refugees and that they were released while he was fined.


The different interviewers just let him talk. The more he says the better. Let him hang himself and he finally did just that. All his interviews were a variation of the same story.

Someone did record his final alteration of the story. Holmes noted what he said and it is obvious you see the importance and significance of his change in his movements of the day. LHO's mistake was centered on him stating he came down after the "commotion" nothing more. LHO's story always had him in an encounter with Baker on the second floor following the assassination which he stated he came down the stairs to the encounter in the second floor lunchroom. At the time nobody had a clear view of the whole picture of the employees movements, today we do.

Oswald stated that at various other times he had been thoroughly interrogated by the FBI; that they had used all the usual interrogation practices and all their standard operating procedure; that he was very familiar with interrogation, and he had no intention of answering any questions concerning any shooting; that he knew he did not have to answer them and that he would not answer any questions until he had been given counsel. He stated that the FBI had used their hard and soft approach to him, they used the buddy system; that he was familiar with all types of questioning and had no intention of making any statement.

Oswald stated that at various other times he had been thoroughly interrogated by the FBI;

True....We know that Lee had in fact been interrogated on at least two prior occasions.....

he was very familiar with interrogation,

True... He had been educated by ONI, about how to resist hostile interrogation, I while in the MC , before he was sent to Russia on an intel mission. ( All GI's are taught to resist hostile interrogation, but those GI's who enter Military Intelligence are thoroughly trained on how to handle the various interrogation techniques. )

he was offered an attorney and to have him present when interviewed and continued on talking anyway. Proof of just how clever he was.

Lee knew that he needed a lawyer that had Top Secret clearance .....He could not discuss anything with a lawyer who did not have the TOP SECRET  clearance.

LHO's mistake was centered on him stating he came down after the "commotion" nothing more.

Lee did not say that..... Holmes said that.....But NONE of the other listeners heard Lee make such an absurdly incriminating statement.   

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 29, 2021, 10:02:12 PM
Are there any other prints of the Altgens 6 photo that show the same anomaly (fore arm with bottle in hand) as in the Cronkite  TV show print ?



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 29, 2021, 11:18:24 PM
Someone did record his final alteration of the story. Holmes noted what he said and it is obvious you see the importance and significance of his change in his movements of the day. LHO's mistake was centered on him stating he came down after the "commotion" nothing more. LHO's story always had him in an encounter with Baker on the second floor following the assassination which he stated he came down the stairs to the encounter in the second floor lunchroom. At the time nobody had a clear view of the whole picture of the employees movements, today we do.

No sensational, game-changing final alteration of the story was noted by Captain Fritz or anyone else, and the reason is that there was no sensational, game-changing final alteration of the story.

--------------------Mr Oswald said he visited the second floor lunchroom before the motorcade and went outside to watch the P. Parade.

--------------------Mr Oswald said he encountered a cop at the front entrance.

This is the same story: Mr Oswald being out front for the assassination puts him in Officer Baker's path. And-------a point you keep ignoring-------DPD on 11/22 were telling the press all about this front entrance encounter. And Mr Lovelady saw it and told Mr Jarman all about it.

If Officer Baker's dash into the building had not been so disastrously quick, the encounter never would have been moved up to the second floor lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 29, 2021, 11:18:50 PM
Are there any other prints of the Altgens 6 photo that show the same anomaly (fore arm with bottle in hand) as in the Cronkite  TV show print ?

Not to my knowledge, Mr Mason
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 29, 2021, 11:43:41 PM
From Mr Truly's 11/22 FBI interview report------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/13/a2/ub5zJGnk_o.jpg)

Why are you telling us this, Mr Truly?  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 30, 2021, 03:26:14 AM
From Mr Truly's 11/22 FBI interview report------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/13/a2/ub5zJGnk_o.jpg)

Why are you telling us this, Mr Truly?  :D

Good post about Truly's account of the encounter, but it gets worse for LHO and his mistaken admission of being located on the upper floor during the assassination.

This explains the vestibule and also the double doors as being on the second floor before the lunchroom.

The following affidavit was executed by Roy Sansom Truly on August 3, 1964.
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

AFFIDAVIT

STATE OF TEXAS,
County of Dallas, ss:

I, Roy Sansom Truly, being duly sworn say:
1. I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository Building Dallas, Texas.
2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 30, 2021, 03:30:40 AM
No sensational, game-changing final alteration of the story was noted by Captain Fritz or anyone else, and the reason is that there was no sensational, game-changing final alteration of the story.

--------------------Mr Oswald said he visited the second floor lunchroom before the motorcade and went outside to watch the P. Parade.

--------------------Mr Oswald said he encountered a cop at the front entrance.

This is the same story: Mr Oswald being out front for the assassination puts him in Officer Baker's path. And-------a point you keep ignoring-------DPD on 11/22 were telling the press all about this front entrance encounter. And Mr Lovelady saw it and told Mr Jarman all about it.

If Officer Baker's dash into the building had not been so disastrously quick, the encounter never would have been moved up to the second floor lunchroom.

LHO's own admissions in repeated interogations place him and Baker meeting on the second floor. They also repeated infer there was some interaction by coworkers. No coworker has ever stated they ate lunch with him or saw him eating lunch in the first floor lunch room
.
Holmes clearly states he has no knowledge of the interior of the TSBD. He also states the encounter with Baker took place by the Coke Machine. Understanding an encounter by a Coke Machine requires no knowledge of the layout of the TSBD.

The only time LHO was outside of the TSBD was when he left the building to catch the bus.

You cannot judge what people knew in 11/ 63 with what is known today. The whereabouts of all the employees is well known now, but would not have been known by LHO or anyone else with any degree of certainty. LHO inadvertently stated his whereabouts during the assassination based on what he knew at the time. Today we know he gave himself up as being on the 6th floor by stating he came down stairs to the lunch room encounter after the "commotion" referenced by him.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2021, 03:43:30 AM
LHO's own admissions in repeated interogations place him and Baker meeting on the second floor. They also repeated infer there was some interaction by coworkers. No coworker has ever stated they ate lunch with him or saw him eating lunch in the first floor lunch room
.
Holmes clearly states he has no knowledge of the interior of the TSBD. He also states the encounter with Baker took place by the Coke Machine. Understanding an encounter by a Coke Machine requires no knowledge of the layout of the TSBD.

The only time LHO was outside of the TSBD was when he left the building to catch the bus.

You cannot judge what people knew in 11/ 63 with what is known today. The whereabouts of all the employees is well known now, but would not have been known by LHO or anyone else with any degree of certainty. LHO inadvertently stated his whereabouts during the assassination based on what he knew at the time. Today we know he gave himself up as being on the 6th floor by stating he came down stairs to the lunch room encounter after the "commotion" referenced by him.
Wow!!.... I've seen some real idiots post in the various forums, but YOU Mr Nessan surpass them all....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 30, 2021, 11:54:54 AM
Good post about Truly's account of the encounter, but it gets worse for LHO and his mistaken admission of being located on the upper floor during the assassination.

This explains the vestibule and also the double doors as being on the second floor before the lunchroom.

The following affidavit was executed by Roy Sansom Truly on August 3, 1964.
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

AFFIDAVIT

STATE OF TEXAS,
County of Dallas, ss:

I, Roy Sansom Truly, being duly sworn say:
1. I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository Building Dallas, Texas.
2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door

So two doors rather than two sets of doors (as per Mr Holmes). Got it!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 30, 2021, 12:09:46 PM
LHO's own admissions in repeated interogations place him and Baker meeting on the second floor.

How many times are you going to misrepresent what's in the Hosty draft report, Mr Nessan?
--------visit to second floor lunchroom (pre-assassination)
--------lunch on one (pre-assassination)
--------then outside to watch P. Parade

No post-assassination encounter with Officer Baker in the second floor lunchroom.

Quote
They also repeated infer there was some interaction by coworkers. No coworker has ever stated they ate lunch with him or saw him eating lunch in the first floor lunch room

Why do you favor Inspector Kelley's version of this over Agent Bookhout's? Oh, I forgot------Agent Bookhout took a little nap while Inspector Kelley stayed awake to hear Mr Oswald change his story.

Mr Oswald claimed----truthfully----that he ate lunch alone in the domino room, during which time he noticed Messrs Jarman and Norman pass through. He also claimed----truthfully----that he took what remained of his lunch/coke outside to watch the P. Parade------------and hence was (as Captain Fritz let slip) eating his lunch in the presence of other employees when the assassination happened, and saw all the 'excitement'.
.
Quote
Holmes clearly states he has no knowledge of the interior of the TSBD.

And yet he describes its front area to a T. Because he is recalling Mr Oswald's description.

Quote
He also states the encounter with Baker took place by the Coke Machine. Understanding an encounter by a Coke Machine requires no knowledge of the layout of the TSBD.

~Yawn~ More shameless cherry-picking......

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke."

Mr Holmes heard Mr Oswald mention having bought the coke from the coke machine--------a pre-motorcade event.

Quote
The only time LHO was outside of the TSBD was when he left the building to catch the bus.

You cannot judge what people knew in 11/ 63 with what is known today. The whereabouts of all the employees is well known now, but would not have been known by LHO or anyone else with any degree of certainty.

Did Mr Oswald have access to the latest newspapers? If not, how come he was able to tell the same story of a front entrance encounter that DPD were telling press on 11/22?

Quote
LHO inadvertently stated his whereabouts during the assassination based on what he knew at the time. Today we know he gave himself up as being on the 6th floor by stating he came down stairs to the lunch room encounter after the "commotion" referenced by him.

We know nothing of the sort, lol.

And once again------you are aware, I hope, that Mr Oswald was seen downstairs after folks broke for lunch. So your wild theory, based on a ridiculously forced reading of Mr Holmes' compressed account, is that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz on the Sunday that he never came downstairs after folks broke for lunch. Good luck with that!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2021, 01:02:47 PM
How many times are you going to misrepresent what's in the Hosty draft report, Mr Nessan?
--------visit to second floor lunchroom (pre-assassination)
--------lunch on one (pre-assassination)
--------then outside to watch P. Parade

No post-assassination encounter with Officer Baker in the second floor lunchroom.

Why do you favor Inspector Kelley's version of this over Agent Bookhout's? Oh, I forgot------Agent Bookhout took a little nap while Inspector Kelley stayed awake to hear Mr Oswald change his story.

Mr Oswald claimed----truthfully----that he ate lunch alone in the domino room, during which time he noticed Messrs Jarman and Norman pass through. He also claimed----truthfully----that he took what remained of his lunch/coke outside to watch the P. Parade------------and hence was (as Captain Fritz let slip) eating his lunch in the presence of other employees when the assassination happened, and saw all the 'excitement'.
.
And yet he describes its front area to a T. Because he is recalling Mr Oswald's description.

~Yawn~ More shameless cherry-picking......

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke."

Mr Holmes heard Mr Oswald mention having bought the coke from the coke machine--------a pre-motorcade event.

Did Mr Oswald have access to the latest newspapers? If not, how come he was able to tell the same story of a front entrance encounter that DPD were telling press on 11/22?

We know nothing of the sort, lol.

And once again------you are aware, I hope, that Mr Oswald was seen downstairs after folks broke for lunch. So your wild theory, based on a ridiculously forced reading of Mr Holmes' compressed account, is that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz on the Sunday that he never came downstairs after folks broke for lunch. Good luck with that!

Mr Ford, your imaginary information surrounding Lee Oswald's actions between 12:15 pm and 12:35 Pm is no better than Mr Nessan's imaginary information.  Apparently neither of you can comprehend what you read....   Or at least neither of you can understand that Postal Inspector  Harry Holmes had been hanging around the DPD and hearing bits and pieces of information from the time that Lee Oswald was brought to police headquarters.  Holmes knew the story that was being created and fed to the reporters.... So when he listened in on the interrogation of Lee Oswald that Sunday morning he tried to fit Lee's account into the framework of the story he already knew....But that story was not true.   The most glaring error that Holmes made was founded in his belief that Lee Oswald was guilty,...   And since he accepted that Lee was guilty  (because Holmes had been watching Lee's mail box, as an FBI informant , and therefore he  "knew" that Lee was a communist )   he accepted the tale that Lee had been on the sixth floor at the time shots were fired from the sixth floor window. ***

Bottomline....   Holmes report is simply a twisted account of what Lee said that Sunday morning just minutes before he was lead to his lynching.       

P.S. Once a person like Holmes, accepts a lie about another person (LHO) who is being held up in the limelight as a demented devil, and Holmes believes  the tales being told are true, it's very easy for that person ( Holmes)  to create false information about the villain.  And that's exactly what Holmes did. 

A simple example.....  Everybody knows that Adolph Hitler, was pure evil....  So If I were to say that I'd found secret information that Hitler engaged in sex with small children ....   Many people would simple accept it as the truth.

***  There were no shots fired from he sixth floor window.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 30, 2021, 11:50:48 PM
Mr Ford, your imaginary information surrounding Lee Oswald's actions between 12:15 pm and 12:35 Pm is no better than Mr Nessan's imaginary information.  Apparently neither of you can comprehend what you read....   Or at least neither of you can understand that Postal Inspector  Harry Holmes had been hanging around the DPD and hearing bits and pieces of information from the time that Lee Oswald was brought to police headquarters.  Holmes knew the story that was being created and fed to the reporters.... So when he listened in on the interrogation of Lee Oswald that Sunday morning he tried to fit Lee's account into the framework of the story he already knew....But that story was not true.   The most glaring error that Holmes made was founded in his belief that Lee Oswald was guilty,...   And since he accepted that Lee was guilty  (because Holmes had been watching Lee's mail box, as an FBI informant , and therefore he  "knew" that Lee was a communist )   he accepted the tale that Lee had been on the sixth floor at the time shots were fired from the sixth floor window. ***

Bottomline....   Holmes report is simply a twisted account of what Lee said that Sunday morning just minutes before he was lead to his lynching.       

P.S. Once a person like Holmes, accepts a lie about another person (LHO) who is being held up in the limelight as a demented devil, and Holmes believes  the tales being told are true, it's very easy for that person ( Holmes)  to create false information about the villain.  And that's exactly what Holmes did. 

A simple example.....  Everybody knows that Adolph Hitler, was pure evil....  So If I were to say that I'd found secret information that Hitler engaged in sex with small children ....   Many people would simple accept it as the truth.

***  There were no shots fired from he sixth floor window.

Nope. Mr Holmes' recollection is somewhat compressed & muddled, but he gets the essentials of Mr Oswald's (truthful) claims right------------

1. Encounter between coke-in-hand Mr Oswald and officer (=Marrion L. Baker) at front entrance

2. Showing crewcut man (= Mr Pierce Allman) to nearest phone

3. No lunchroom encounter

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 31, 2021, 12:39:47 AM
Nope. Mr Holmes' recollection is somewhat compressed & muddled, but he gets the essentials of Mr Oswald's (truthful) claims right------------

1. Encounter between coke-in-hand Mr Oswald and officer (=Marrion L. Baker) at front entrance

2. Showing crewcut man (= Mr Pierce Allman) to nearest phone

3. No lunchroom encounter

 Thumb1:

1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before the motorcade (and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)
2. He returns to one and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)
3. He goes outside to watch the P. Parade (he's Prayer Man)
4. Officer Baker comes storming up the steps and asks him if he works there (to show him to the nearest stairs)... then Mr Truly comes along
5. Mr Oswald, alarmed by what has just happened, goes inside to check for the curtain rods he left in the front-of-house storage room
6. He comes back out to the lobby (having been noticed by Mr Ochus Campbell and perhaps Ms Jeraldean Reid?)... he has established that the curtain rods are gone
7. Mr Pierce Allman comes looking for a telephone; Mr Oswald points him the way
8. Mr Oswald walks down the front steps and leaves the building------------disappearing (as Chief Curry will tell reporters later that day) "in the crowd"
9. The next known sighting of him is by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, who sees him walking south on the Houston side of the Depository and then crossing over and disappearing from sight (Mr Frazier mistakenly assumes he must have just left by the back door of the building)

In custody, Mr Oswald does NOT mention #5 & 6 to Captain Fritz. He does not want to admit to having carried ANY substantial package to work that morning.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/be/f6/xilRx4lh_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jack Nessan on January 31, 2021, 07:12:34 AM
1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before the motorcade (and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)
2. He returns to one and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)
3. He goes outside to watch the P. Parade (he's Prayer Man)
4. Officer Baker comes storming up the steps and asks him if he works there (to show him to the nearest stairs)... then Mr Truly comes along
5. Mr Oswald, alarmed by what has just happened, goes inside to check for the curtain rods he left in the front-of-house storage room
6. He comes back out to the lobby (having been noticed by Mr Ochus Campbell and perhaps Ms Jeraldean Reid?)... he has established that the curtain rods are gone
7. Mr Pierce Allman comes looking for a telephone; Mr Oswald points him the way
8. Mr Oswald walks down the front steps and leaves the building------------disappearing (as Chief Curry will tell reporters later that day) "in the crowd"
9. The next known sighting of him is by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, who sees him walking south on the Houston side of the Depository and then crossing over and disappearing from sight (Mr Frazier mistakenly assumes he must have just left by the back door of the building)

In custody, Mr Oswald does NOT mention #5 & 6 to Captain Fritz. He does not want to admit to having carried ANY substantial package to work that morning.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/be/f6/xilRx4lh_o.jpg)

An indeterminate photo that could literally be anyone on the face of the Earth, this newspaper article, and Hosty's notes is all that is needed by you to proclaim the innocence of LHO? These vague and generalized remembrances somehow refute the similar but detailed statements of the other officials involved in the interrogation of LHO. Statements by the other interrogators, which are similar to each other and ultimately incriminating to LHO, are to be dismissed in favor of what you have posted and somehow misguidedly assigned great importance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 31, 2021, 01:42:22 PM

5. Mr Oswald, alarmed by what has just happened, goes inside to check for the curtain rods he left in the front-of-house storage room


 :D :D :D

The fun just never stops!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 31, 2021, 04:21:12 PM
Aha! It's taken you weeks and weeks and weeks to bring yourself to tell us that, Mr O'Meara. What a tremendous breakthrough!

So------------the shadow is the edge of the wall of the front entrance, is it?

Here's Mr Lovelady with the shadow down the right side of his body---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/95/32/cdMmjjGJ_o.jpg)

The green line here (a model of the doorway @ Darnell) shows where the shadowline actually fell at 12:30pm 11/22/63:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/cf/SjSbbYk0_o.jpg)

Now, Mr O'Meara-----------can you kindly indicate, using the image above, where on those steps you believe Mr Lovelady is standing in the Wiegman frame above?

 Thumb1:

Bumped for Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 31, 2021, 11:55:51 PM
A further research resource to help Mr O'Meara with his Great Demonstration of the Obvious Fact That Mr Lovelady in Wiegman---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/95/32/cdMmjjGJ_o.jpg)

---------is 'Obviously' Catching a Big Chunk of Shadow from the Edge of the West Wall.............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/35/9d/zXHishjg_o.png)

(Credit: Mr James Hackerott)

Over to you, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 01, 2021, 03:36:44 AM
A further research resource to help Mr O'Meara with his Great Demonstration of the Obvious Fact That Mr Lovelady in Wiegman---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/95/32/cdMmjjGJ_o.jpg)

---------is 'Obviously' Catching a Big Chunk of Shadow from the Edge of the West Wall.............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/35/9d/zXHishjg_o.png)

(Credit: Mr James Hackerott)

Over to you, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

Do you know what Alan, I've had a good look into this and am unhappy to report that it doesn't look right.
I have to agree with you - it can't be a shadow from the corner of the wall being cast on Lovelady.
Go figure
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 01, 2021, 03:02:52 PM
1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before the motorcade (and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)
2. He returns to one and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)
3. He goes outside to watch the P. Parade (he's Prayer Man)
4. Officer Baker comes storming up the steps and asks him if he works there (to show him to the nearest stairs)... then Mr Truly comes along
5. Mr Oswald, alarmed by what has just happened, goes inside to check for the curtain rods he left in the front-of-house storage room
6. He comes back out to the lobby (having been noticed by Mr Ochus Campbell and perhaps Ms Jeraldean Reid?)... he has established that the curtain rods are gone
7. Mr Pierce Allman comes looking for a telephone; Mr Oswald points him the way
8. Mr Oswald walks down the front steps and leaves the building------------disappearing (as Chief Curry will tell reporters later that day) "in the crowd"
9. The next known sighting of him is by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, who sees him walking south on the Houston side of the Depository and then crossing over and disappearing from sight (Mr Frazier mistakenly assumes he must have just left by the back door of the building)

In custody, Mr Oswald does NOT mention #5 & 6 to Captain Fritz. He does not want to admit to having carried ANY substantial package to work that morning.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/be/f6/xilRx4lh_o.jpg)

1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before the motorcade (and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)
2. He returns to one and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)

1.  Lee arrives at the Domino room and notices it is now empty and all his fellow employees have departed to go out front to watch the parade, and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter the Shipping room), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)

2. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before going outside.   While he's there in front of the coke machine, with the coke that he's just purchased in his hand,  the door flies open, and big motorcycle cop appears at the doorway, with his pistol in his hand.     .....  Then we have ....THE REST OF THE STORY. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 01, 2021, 04:40:41 PM

 (and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)

Where do you get the notion Dougherty saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom from?

Mr. BALL - That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 01, 2021, 09:03:42 PM
Do you know what Alan, I've had a good look into this and am unhappy to report that it doesn't look right.
I have to agree with you - it can't be a shadow from the corner of the wall being cast on Lovelady.
Go figure

Your candor is appreciated, Mr O'Meara  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 01, 2021, 09:05:44 PM
1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before the motorcade (and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)
2. He returns to one and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)

1.  Lee arrives at the Domino room and notices it is now empty and all his fellow employees have departed to go out front to watch the parade, and starts eating his lunch in the domino room (and notices Messrs Jarman & Norman enter the Shipping room), periodically checking out the front door for signs of the motorcade's arrival (being awkward with small talk, he is deliberately waiting until the last minute to go out)

2. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom for coke several minutes before going outside.   While he's there in front of the coke machine, with the coke that he's just purchased in his hand,  the door flies open, and big motorcycle cop appears at the doorway, with his pistol in his hand.     .....  Then we have ....THE REST OF THE STORY.

You have arbitrarily reversed the sequence of events clearly set out in Agent Hosty's draft report----------

1. Visit to second floor lunchroom for coke
2. Down to 1 to eat
3. Then went outside to watch P. Parade.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 01, 2021, 09:06:08 PM
(and is noticed there by Ms Carolyn Arnold & Mr Jack Dougherty)

Where do you get the notion Dougherty saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom from?

Mr. BALL - That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

He told Mr Gill Toff
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 01, 2021, 10:36:52 PM
You have arbitrarily reversed the sequence of events clearly set out in Agent Hosty's draft report----------

1. Visit to second floor lunchroom for coke
2. Down to 1 to eat
3. Then went outside to watch P. Parade.

No, I have not reversed the sequence of events in Hosty's ( and  Bookhout's ) report....see page 613 WR

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon, and he claimed that he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom ; However he went to the second floor where the Coca- Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. 

Here's an excerpt From Hosty's book, page 23  Assignment: Oswald

Fritz is asking the questions at the first Interrogation session  which took place at 23:15 11/22/63

Where were you when the president went by the book depository?
"I was eating my lunch in the first floor lunchroom"
What time was that ?
"About noon"
Were you ever on the second floor about the time the president was shot?
"Well Yeah, I went up there to get a bottle of Coca-Cola from the machine for my lunch"
But where were you when the president actually passed your building?
"On the first floor in the lunchroom"
And then you left the book depository, isn't that right ? 
"Yeah"

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 01, 2021, 10:40:30 PM
No, I have not reversed the sequence of events in Hosty's ( and  Bookhout's ) report...

Stop playing games, Mr Cakebread, you know full well I'm referring to the Hosty draft report that came to light in 2019. You're still in denial about its explosive contents

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 02, 2021, 12:39:53 AM
Stop playing games, Mr Cakebread, you know full well I'm referring to the Hosty draft report that came to light in 2019. You're still in denial about its explosive contents

Are you referring to Hosty's scribbled notes???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 02, 2021, 12:59:41 AM
If you hold a 1963 Dr.Pepper bottle at the base of the bottle as (IMO) PM appears to be doing, then the upper half of the solid white oval shaped Dr. Pepper bottle will be visible.

Therefore I’m returning to my early speculation that the white of that label caused the stark contrast of dark and light that resulted in the white being somewhat bright as the negative was processed.

One has to wonder about the random probability of the Dr. Pepper bottle that appears in one photo of the front entrance steps within an hour approx post shots fired.

A. It’s a Dr. Pepper bottle with the solid white oval shaped label.
B. It’s left right at very spot on the front steps next to the west wall and on step just below the top landing
where our speculative Oswald PM was located in the Weigman film
C. Oswalds favorite soda was Dr. Pepper

Now add in the coincidence of PM raising an white object to mouth level

Using his RIGHT exposed fore arm

And this coincidence of this being the ONLY person at the entrance seen in Wiegman film with such object raised

And then 1st print Altgens photo in the early newspapers within approx an hour post shots. And amazingly This anomaly of bare fore arm upraised with bottle in the hand, Is consistently reprinted matching an Altgens photo print that Walter Cronkite has acquired and shows on TV show.

HOW THE HECK DID WE ( the public over 50 years) COMPLETELY FAIL to see this truly amazing image detail and the amazing coincidence of Oswald being the ONLY Possible other person with a soda bottle (other than Lovelady) on the front steps of TSBD???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2021, 01:11:43 AM
One has to wonder about the random probability of the Dr. Pepper bottle that appears in one photo of the front entrance steps within an hour approx post shots fired.

Not a random probablity

(https://images2.imgbox.com/2d/2a/xzqkko4g_o.png)

Quote
C. Oswalds favorite soda was Dr. Pepper

He stated clearly that he bought a Coca-Cola for his lunch before the P. Parade

Quote
HOW THE HECK DID WE ( the public over 50 years) COMPLETELY FAIL to see this truly amazing image detail and the amazing coincidence of Oswald being the ONLY Possible other person with a soda bottle (other than Lovelady) on the front steps of TSBD???

Because folks were obsessing over the wrong question------------'Is that Lovelady or LHO in Altgens?'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 02, 2021, 01:49:13 AM
Mr. Ford, that Dr. Pepper bottle in the hand of the cop is Not likely THE bottle in the photo on TSBD step were PM was standing, as that label is NOT the solid oval label as the bottle on steps appears imo to have

Would this cop litter the front of the TSBD at this time?

Does this cop have any statement on record of having left this Dr.Pepper bottle on the front steps?

What’s the probability of a cop so impeccably neat in his own
Appearance littering in public view AND also managing to randomly pick the near exact spot on the steps that PM was at, to leave the bottle?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2021, 10:00:18 AM
Mr Oswald claimed that, just before he left the building, a credential-carrying crewcut man came up to him looking for a telephone, and Mr Oswald pointed him the way to the nearest one.

If Mr Oswald was telling the truth about this (and Mr Pierce Allman seems to confirm it), then we have Mr Oswald at the front entrance shortly after the shooting apparently noticed by not a single co-worker. And why would anyone take particular notice of him? He was just another manual worker.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 02, 2021, 11:41:06 AM
Mr Oswald claimed that, just before he left the building, a credential-carrying crewcut man came up to him looking for a telephone, and Mr Oswald pointed him the way to the nearest one.

If Mr Oswald was telling the truth about this (and Mr Pierce Allman seems to confirm it), then we have Mr Oswald at the front entrance shortly after the shooting apparently noticed by not a single co-worker. And why would anyone take particular notice of him? He was just another manual worker.

I never have doubted that Lee was telling the truth about this point.     I'm a bit befuddled about why you think it's such a big deal.  If the man in the photos is Lee Oswald ( and I believe that's is a very real possibility) then you have shown real evidence that Mrs Reid was dead wrong in saying that Lee didn't have his outer shirt on and was wearing a white T shirt when he departed.....    But beyond that I'm at a loss to see what you're yelling about.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2021, 02:57:05 PM
I never have doubted that Lee was telling the truth about this point.     I'm a bit befuddled about why you think it's such a big deal.

It's not a big deal that folks generally didn't notice Mr Oswald at the front entrance. That's the point.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: William Pilgrim on February 02, 2021, 03:34:42 PM
Do you think that Wesley Buell Frazier would have noticed him as they were friends/acquaintances or do you think he was pressurised to lie in his testimony?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2021, 06:22:14 PM
Do you think that Wesley Buell Frazier would have noticed him as they were friends/acquaintances or do you think he was pressurised to lie in his testimony?

Yes to both!

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 02, 2021, 09:42:03 PM
Well SOMEBODY noticed The Forearm With Bottle in Altgens 6 photo, otherwise that arm would have remained as seen in the 1st print version and never would there have been the 2nd print version with that arm and bottle Erased and replaced with some texture and pattern of Loveladys shirt to attempt fool the public.

AND IT WORKED for 50 years!

Until just very recently

Thanks to Mr. Fords almost accidental discovery of hitherto hidden in plain view image that even Walter Cronkite missed!

By the way, I DID find at least 4 newspaper front  page 1st print copy of Altgens photo that show this same anomaly of a forearm with bottle.

Just searching JFK assassination newspaper images.

Somebody else will have to post those images here on this forum, as I’m not really up to speed on how to use my phone

I
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2021, 09:57:41 PM
Well SOMEBODY noticed The Forearm With Bottle in Altgens 6 photo, otherwise that arm would have remained as seen in the 1st print version and never would there have been the 2nd print version with that arm and bottle Erased and replaced with some texture and pattern of Loveladys shirt to attempt fool the public.

They noticed because Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz EXACTLY where he was when the shots rang out-------------including the detail that he was drinking the Coke.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 03, 2021, 05:39:59 PM
These two images are taken within seconds of one another------------

BELL FILM:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/e7/76/JbcdjzW8_o.jpg)

TOWNER FILM:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/bf/4a/mSkfPum4_o.jpg)

I believe the figure at the pink arrow in Towner is Mr Lovelady, at the yellow Prayer Man
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 03, 2021, 05:53:22 PM
These two images are taken within seconds of one another------------

BELL FILM:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/e7/76/JbcdjzW8_o.jpg)

TOWNER FILM:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/bf/4a/mSkfPum4_o.jpg)

I believe the figure at the pink arrow in Towner is Mr Lovelady, at the yellow Prayer Man

Wow!!.....  Are you serious??   Do you believe that you can identify those blobs??
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 03, 2021, 08:54:07 PM
Do you know what Alan, I've had a good look into this and am unhappy to report that it doesn't look right.
I have to agree with you - it can't be a shadow from the corner of the wall being cast on Lovelady.
Go figure

Finally!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 03, 2021, 09:00:54 PM
It may be time to start a Jack Nessan's fabrications thread.

He radically changed his story in this final interview. He abandoned the idea he ate lunch with or near the coworkers. He admitted to being on the upper floors during the assassination based on his continuing to work until he came downstairs because of th commotion and encountered Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Bull.  Not even Holmes in his ridiculously vague account says anything about upper floors.

You are right, unbelievable, he was offered an attorney and to have him present when interviewed and continued on talking anyway.

Bull.  There's no evidence that Oswald was offered an attorney for the interrogations.  On the contrary, Oswald complained on camera about not being allowed legal representation.

Holmes clearly states he has no knowledge of the interior of the TSBD. He also states the encounter with Baker took place by the Coke Machine.

Bull.  Holmes said nothing about the encounter with Baker taking place by the Coke Machine.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 03, 2021, 10:07:31 PM
Finally!

Alan had been going on about the Wiegman shadow because, as he explains it, the film had been tampered with to disguise the fact Lovelady was wearing a long-sleeved shirt. Why did this need disguising? Because, according to Alan, the Altgens 6 pic he posted below shows Oswald's arm holding a bottle of coke:

(https://i.postimg.cc/6pwbYRt1/Ford-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

For many reasons I wasn't going anywhere near this but I note, in your role as self-appointed, self-anointed fact-checker, you didn't have a word to say about this lunacy, revealing (as if it needed revealing) your stinking bias and hypocrisy.
To me it looked like the shadow of the wall was being cast on Lovelady, no mystery, and Alan's explanation was beyond bizarre so I wasn't getting drawn into that particular fantasy.
But Alan wouldn't let it go so I checked it out just to shut him up and came across this Allen pic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8PhN7hZy/steps-of-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The officer on the left on the top step with the white, rounded helmet is stood approximately where I imagined Lovelady to be.
He is clearly in sunlight with no shadow from the wall being cast on him.
I realised I was wrong and, not being a coward or a hypocrite, immediately posted Alan to tell him I'd checked it out and that I agreed something was weird about the Wiegman pic.

You have felt it necessary to post one of your snide remarks even though I have done what anyone researching this case should do - discover something that contradicts their belief then change that belief accordingly (like that happens a lot around here).

Get back under your stone.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 03, 2021, 10:52:54 PM
For many reasons I wasn't going anywhere near this but I note, in your role as self-appointed, self-anointed fact-checker, you didn't have a word to say about this lunacy, revealing (as if it needed revealing) your stinking bias and hypocrisy.

Maybe because "lunacy" isn't defined as "Dan O'Meara disagrees".

Quote
To me it looked like the shadow of the wall was being cast on Lovelady, no mystery, and Alan's explanation was beyond bizarre so I wasn't getting drawn into that particular fantasy.

Well then you weren't paying much attention, because he asked you repeatedly to account for how that wall could cast a shadow on that spot.  Hence my observation of "finally".  Maybe you're too busy posturing to bother to try to absorb what it is you're responding to.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2021, 12:08:15 AM
Now!

From Captain Fritz's interrogation 'notes'--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b7/47/XA08VvNL_o.jpg)

4706? Wrong number!

From Agent Bookhout's interrogation report--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/92/fd/fC1tUtnI_o.jpg)

4706? Wrong number! But not just that.................. This is the same wrong number as in Captain Fritz's 'notes'! Gee whizz, the fact that Captain Fritz reproduces Agent Bookhout's exact error would almost make a soul think Captain Fritz's notes must derive their contents from Agent Bookhout's report..............

But wait! All this shows is Mr Oswald gave the wrong number in interrogation (the wily commie scoundrel). Right?

Wrong! From Inspector Kelley's report on the same interrogation session-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/c4/63/XRxqW88l_o.jpg)

4907? Right number!

Sorry to break Lunchroom Derangement Syndrome hearts here, but Captain Fritz's 'notes' are just scribblings based on Agent Hosty's reports. Their independent evidentiary value is ZILCH  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 04, 2021, 12:35:08 AM
Now!

From Captain Fritz's interrogation 'notes'--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b7/47/XA08VvNL_o.jpg)

4706? Wrong number!

From Agent Bookhout's interrogation report--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/92/fd/fC1tUtnI_o.jpg)

4706? Wrong number! But not just that.................. This is the same wrong number as in Captain Fritz's 'notes'! Gee whizz, the fact that Captain Fritz reproduces Agent Bookhout's exact error would almost make a soul think Captain Fritz's notes must derive their contents from Agent Bookhout's report..............

But wait! All this shows is Mr Oswald gave the wrong number in interrogation (the wily commie scoundrel). Right?

Wrong! From Inspector Kelley's report on the same interrogation session-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/c4/63/XRxqW88l_o.jpg)

4907? Right number!

Sorry to break Lunchroom Derangement Syndrome hearts here, but Captain Fritz's 'notes' are just scribblings based on Agent Hosty's reports. Their independent evidentiary value is ZILCH  Thumb1:

Also from the Kelley report:

"I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not..."

 ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2021, 12:40:17 AM
Also from the Kelley report:

"I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not..."

 ;)

Inspector Kelley is lying here. But he has no cause to lie about Mr Oswald's N.O. address.

Do you believe that both Captain Fritz and Agent Bookhout independently misheard the number 4907 as 4706? Or that Mr Oswald gave the wrong number, then corrected himself---------but both Captain Fritz and Agent Bookhout failed to notice the correction and so stuck with the original error?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 04, 2021, 12:44:26 AM
Inspector Kelley is lying here. But he has no cause to lie about Mr Oswald's N.O. address.

Do you believe that both Captain Fritz and Agent Bookhout independently misheard the number 4907 as 4706? Or that Mr Oswald gave the wrong number, then corrected himself---------but both Captain Fritz and Agent Bookhout failed to notice the correction and so stuck with the original error?

I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes and don't really have a problem with that suggestion.
I don't know if that exonerates Fritz as a Hoaxer.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2021, 12:50:25 AM
I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes and don't really have a problem with that suggestion.
I don't know if that exonerates Fritz as a Hoaxer.

Well, it means that Captain Fritz's "claims 2nd Fl Coke when off came in" cannot be used as independent corroboration of Agent Bookhout's solo-report claim as to what Mr Oswald said----------------as it's actually derived from same.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 04, 2021, 12:59:32 AM
Well, it means that Captain Fritz's "claims 2nd Fl Coke when off came in" cannot be used as independent corroboration of Agent Bookhout's solo-report claim as to what Mr Oswald said----------------as it's actually derived from same.

Agreed, but it doesn't alter Bookhout's report, it just means Fritz can't be trusted.
The interesting thing about Bookhout's solo report is that he mentions Oswald had bought a coke before Baker and Truly came in. If Bookhout is a Hoaxer and making all this up why does he include this detail about Oswald having bought the coke only to have this refuted by his fellow Hoaxers, Baker and Truly
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 04, 2021, 04:08:01 AM
I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes and don't really have a problem with that suggestion.
I don't know if that exonerates Fritz as a Hoaxer.

I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes

I believe that Fritz was at least senile. and possibly  in the early stages of dementia.   As a consequence he couldn't take accurate notes, so it's possible that he asked Bookhout if he could borrow the notes that he had taken.   This would explain why he said he didn't take notes at the time, and jotted them down later.    However, As I recall Hosty said in his book, that the typed up reports had to be filed within 24 hours of the interrogation and  any notes taken were to be destroyed.  If that is true, and Bookhout followed orders,  then Fritz must have copied Bookhout's notes on Saturday 11/23 / 63.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2021, 10:42:05 AM
Agreed, but it doesn't alter Bookhout's report, it just means Fritz can't be trusted.

If Captain Fritz's 'notes' are derived from Agent Bookhout's report, then the former cannot be used as independent corroboration of the latter. The discrepancies between Bookhout solo and the earlier reports (Hosty solo, Bookhout-Hosty joint) remain radioactive.
 
Quote
The interesting thing about Bookhout's solo report is that he mentions Oswald had bought a coke before Baker and Truly came in. If Bookhout is a Hoaxer and making all this up

He's not making it all up-----------he's merely taking what Mr Oswald really said (bought coke, down to 1, then outside = all PRE-assassination) and changing the timeframe to POST-assassination to fit it into the post-assassination lunchroom story

Quote
why does he include this detail about Oswald having bought the coke

Not being pedantic here, Mr O'Meara, but the detail he's including is about Mr Oswald having claimed to have bought the coke. I'll return to this below.

Quote
only to have this refuted by his fellow Hoaxers, Baker and Truly

Interesting point, and one lost on most CTers: if Mr Oswald really said what the Bookhout solo report says he did, then he confirmed a lunchroom encounter but not the lunchroom encounter that Officer Baker and Mr Truly would tell the WC about.

EXPLANATION A: Agent Bookhout just went for a straightforward transposition of Mr Oswald's claims, including the coke detail. Under pressure of circumstances, he didn't ponder the implications of including this detail.

EXPLANATION B: Retaining Mr Oswald's actual claim about buying the coke gets a double result: Mr Oswald confirms a lunchroom encounter, but does so in a way that makes him look a liar.

EXPLANATION C: Mr Oswald with a coke in hand may well have been an element in the original lunchroom story put out. E.g....... “The two men scrambled up the stairs to the second floor. As they made their way to the back stairway, the policeman saw Oswald standing beside a soft-drink machine, sipping from a coke bottle” (Washington Post, December 1).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2021, 10:57:48 AM
I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes

I believe that Fritz was at least senile. and possibly  in the early stages of dementia.   As a consequence he couldn't take accurate notes, so it's possible that he asked Bookhout if he could borrow the notes that he had taken.   This would explain why he said he didn't take notes at the time, and jotted them down later.    However, As I recall Hosty said in his book, that the typed up reports had to be filed within 24 hours of the interrogation and  any notes taken were to be destroyed.  If that is true, and Bookhout followed orders,  then Fritz must have copied Bookhout's notes on Saturday 11/23 / 63.

Captain Fritz didn't copy them, he listened to them. For example, on page 1 of his notes we find 'writing' spelled as 'wrighting'. No way would an FBI agent get that spelling wrong.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 05, 2021, 12:44:20 AM
Baker stated he did not draw his gun
out until he reached the 1st staircase

That’s likely the front staircase

Pauline Sanders noticed Baker as he ran right up the right side of those entrance steps, because Pauline was standing just to right side of the entrance door.

It’s implausible imo that Pauline Sanders would have failed to mention a detail such as a gun drawn by the the cop she observed.

Therefore, I’m going with a meeting of Baker and Oswald happening in the front foyer = “vestibule “ at the front staircase as Oswald was seen going TO the storage room by Baker.

Oswald still had on his brown shirt at this point, although it’s uncertain if the sleeves were still rolled up or rolled down. Baker thought it was a jacket.

Truly then entered, saw Baker with gun drawn at Oswald and then vouched for Oswald and advised Baker to follow Truly to the rear elevators and staircase if Baker wanted to get to the roof.

Oswald went back to the storage room. took OFF his brown shirt and then Oswald followed the path of Baker/Truly going thru the now opened countertop  but some 15 to 20 seconds later , such that Baker/Truly have ascended to the 2nd floor landing and out of LOS of Oswald.

Purpose of Oswalds trek across 1st floor to the rear staircase was to get another Dr. Peoper from the 2st floor machine.

However, the Dr,Peoper machine was either sold out or the power has gone out, and so Oswald goes up the rear staircase to go get a coke from the 2nd floor lunchroom.

He gets the coke, but dies not open it, and opts to return to the front foyer and storage room by cutting thru Mrs Reid’s office.

Thus the Mrs Reid meeting Oswald in T-shirt story thingy can be ipreserved “ “INTACT and SECURE” ! ( a phrase from “Fallout” episode of The Prisoner) :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 12:58:11 AM

Therefore, I’m going with a meeting of Baker and Oswald happening in the front foyer = “vestibule “ at the front staircase as Oswald was seen going TO the storage room by Baker.


The "vestibule" is the small space next to the second floor lunchroom. This is from Truly's affidavit:

"2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door"

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 01:09:07 AM
Therefore, I’m going with a meeting of Baker and Oswald happening in the front foyer = “vestibule “ at the front staircase as Oswald was seen going TO the storage room by Baker.

Oswald still had on his brown shirt at this point, although it’s uncertain if the sleeves were still rolled up or rolled down. Baker thought it was a jacket.

Truly then entered, saw Baker with gun drawn at Oswald

Why would Officer Baker draw his gun on someone in the front lobby?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 01:13:17 AM
The "vestibule" is the small space next to the second floor lunchroom. This is from Truly's affidavit:

"2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door"

Yes. Mr Oswald used the word 'vestibule' in interrogation. Vestibule means front lobby; more rarely, it can mean front porch.

Mr Belin later made sure to describe that second floor space (absurdly) as a 'vestibule' during Mr Truly's testimony, and Mr Truly played along.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 05, 2021, 01:52:38 AM
Baker already had drawn his gun in preparation to begin his ascent up the front staircase, erroneously presuming that staircase continued to the roof.

It’s at that point that Oswald was seen as Baker reaches the stairs and it was a reflex action with gun still in hand as Baker saw Oswald going “away “ from that front staircase TO the storage room.

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 05, 2021, 02:11:15 AM
 Carolyn Arnold’s very 1st FBI statement, the only one she SIGNED her name on, does NOT refer to
2nd floor lunchroom. Instead   Arnold describes glimpsing Oswald on the 1st floor in the hallway between  front entrance door and the 2nd set of doors leading to the warehouse at approximately time of 12:25. That
is a description of the front foyer, and NOT the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.
She later denies this FBI statement and starts the 2nd floor lunchroom version in 2nd FBI statement NOT signing her name. And embellishes on that story many years later adding more details such as Oswald seated etc.

Imo, Carolyn Arnold was coerced to change her original 1st floor sighting to the 2nd floor.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 02:14:08 AM
Baker already had drawn his gun in preparation to begin his ascent up the front staircase, erroneously presuming that staircase continued to the roof.

It’s at that point that Oswald was seen as Baker reaches the stairs and it was a reflex action with gun still in hand as Baker saw Oswald going “away “ from that front staircase TO the storage room.

Well maybe, and it has been suggested that the Darnell film shows Officer Baker's pistol already drawn as he runs towards the building entrance.

But! Given how soon after the assassination this was, Officer Baker can hardly have suspected Mr Oswald of involvement in shots fired from the top of the building. That would be even MORE absurd (which is saying something!) than Officer Baker singling out as suspicious a man behind a closed door on the second floor...........

There is a simple solution to this. IF Officer Baker already had his gun drawn as he entered the building, then Agent Bookhout's solo interrogation report may be telling us (with altered location) exactly what Mr Oswald said--------------------

...a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there...

'Do you work here?' in this context is not a suspicious question (how could it be?) but an urgent inquiry meaning 'Do you know where the nearest stairs are?'

In which case Mr Oswald was TWICE asked for directions in the immediate aftermath of the shooting: first from Officer Baker, then from Mr Pierce Allman.

IF this was in the lobby, then it must have been right by the glass doors----------otherwise Mr Lovelady, who was still on the steps, would not have seen it (and mentioned it to Mr Jarman).

Furthermore! If Officer Baker were anywhere near the front-of-house storage room, he wouldn't have needed anyone's help in finding the stairs............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/db/a4/jw5dxLBD_o.jpg)

That door you see is the door to the storage room!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 02:22:06 AM
Carolyn Arnold’s very 1st FBI statement, the only one she SIGNED her name on, does NOT refer to
2nd floor lunchroom. Instead   Arnold describes glimpsing Oswald on the 1st floor in the hallway between  front entrance door and the 2nd set of doors leading to the warehouse at approximately time of 12:25.

Where's her signature? This is an interview report, not a signed statement. Ms Arnold was furious when Mr Earl Golz read it out to her over the telephone.

Quote
That
is a description of the front foyer, and NOT the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.
She later denies this FBI statement and starts the 2nd floor lunchroom version in 2nd FBI statement NOT signing her name.

What second FBI statement?

Quote
And embellishes on that story many years later adding more details such as Oswald seated etc.

Imo, Carolyn Arnold was coerced to change her original 1st floor sighting to the 2nd floor.

No, she was contacted by Mr Earl Golz and Mr Anthony Summers. No coercion!

I believe Ms Arnold saw Mr Oswald in the second floor lunchroom several minutes before the shooting, AND again behind the front entrance glass doors a little later. Mr Oswald, as he ate his lunch on one after buying the coke, kept an eye on the action outside---------------he wanted to wait until the P. Parade arrived before popping out. (No desire to stand on the steps making small talk with other employees.)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 02:33:38 AM
Want a good laugh?

Within a few days of the assassination, a filmed reconstruction was made of Evil Oswald's fiendish descent from the sniper's nest to the second floor lunchroom. How does the man playing Evil Oswald bring his performance to a close? By sitting at one of the tables!  :D

(https://images2.imgbox.com/70/53/VDC38SqY_o.jpg)

Those suffering from Lunchroom Derangement Syndrome are now cordially invited to explain how this SS reconstruction was carried out without either Officer Baker or the on-site building manager Mr Truly being consulted as to Mr Oswald's exact whereabouts at the time he was confronted!

Unfortunately for our LDS sufferers, it gets even worse. There is a whopping coincidence between the above and what Mr Truly himself was telling folks in the first days after the assassination-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b3/34/js1kz41a_o.jpg)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 05, 2021, 03:22:27 AM
Baker already had drawn his gun in preparation to begin his ascent up the front staircase, erroneously presuming that staircase continued to the roof.

It’s at that point that Oswald was seen as Baker reaches the stairs and it was a reflex action with gun still in hand as Baker saw Oswald going “away “ from that front staircase TO the storage room.

Baker already had drawn his gun in preparation to begin his ascent up the front staircase, erroneously presuming that staircase continued to the roof.

I also believe that Baker started up front stairs that ended on the second floor....I believe that he tried to enter the office area through the swinging door but it was latched and at That point Roy truly ran into Baker's back.  Truly of course knew how to release the dor and told Baker to follow him and he'd show him the way to the roof.   As they passed through the vesibule at the west end of the 2nd floor lunchroom, Baker glanced into the lunchroom and saw Lee by the coke machine.  And you know the rest of the story.   

When the police started analyzing the story that Baker was telling they realized that there was NO WAY that Lee Oswald could have been in that lunchroom if he had been firing a rifle on the sixth floor when JFK was murdered.  But the police were intent on putting Lee in the electric chair because they believed he had shot a fellow officer. So they invented the tale about Baker waiting at the elevator on the first floor which was supposed to give enough time for Lee Oswald to have reached the lunchroom before Baker arrived on the second floor.

Of course I'll never be able to get many to accept this scenario...  But I believe it's a very real possibility.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 03:27:06 AM
Baker already had drawn his gun in preparation to begin his ascent up the front staircase, erroneously presuming that staircase continued to the roof.

I also believe that Baker started up front stairs that ended on the second floor....I believe that he tried to enter the office area through the swinging door but it was latched and at That point Roy truly ran into Baker's back.  Truly of course knew how to release the dor and told Baker to follow him and he'd show him the way to the roof.   As they passed through the vesibule at the west end of the 2nd floor lunchroom, Baker glanced into the lunchroom and saw Lee by the coke machine.  And you know the rest of the story.   

When the police started analyzing the story that Baker was telling they realized that there was NO WAY that Lee Oswald could have been in that lunchroom if he had been firing a rifle on the sixth floor when JFK was murdered.  But the police were intent on putting Lee in the electric chair because they believed he had shot a fellow officer. So they invented the tale about Baker waiting at the elevator on the first floor

That elevator detail is in Officer Baker's affidavit---------so why doesn't the affidavit also give us the lunchroom encounter?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 05, 2021, 05:38:03 AM
Carolyn Arnold basically has  3 Different stories

The Nov 26 1963 FBI statement which she did NOT sign, (my mistake earlier) which has NO mention of a 2nd floor lunchroom sighting of Oswald. This is the the statement of a 12:15 “glimpse” of Oswald in the front foyer of 1st floor between the front doors and the 2nd set of  double doors to the warehouse

Then the March 18 1964 FBI statement which she DiD sign, Carolyn Arnold has NO mention of any sighting of Oswald WHAT SO Ever. There is Nothing at all about a 2nd floor lunchroom sighting. She changes time of exiting the TSBD from 12:15 to 12:25.

It’s not until 1978 when Carolyn
Arnold’s no.3 story of 2nd floor sighting of Oswald is told in interviews with Earl Golz and Anthony Summers.
And it was then that she denies the Nov 26/63 statement is true.

IDK what to think now, but I doubt seriously that the FBI would falsely make a statement that would give Oswald an alibi, such as having witness observing him in the front foyer entrance at 12:15

More probably, IMO, the FBI would be compelled by the Hoover memo to “convince” Carolyn Arnold that she must have seen Lovelady instead of Oswald and that a statement of NOT seeing Oswald at the time of shooting would be helpful.  And to sign that statement.

Hence the follow up March 18 1964 Signed FBI statement by Carolyn  Arnold declaring not seeing Oswald at time of shooting and no statement of lunchroom or any other sighting of Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 11:10:30 AM
Carolyn Arnold basically has  3 Different stories

The Nov 26 1963 FBI statement which she did NOT sign, (my mistake earlier) which has NO mention of a 2nd floor lunchroom sighting of Oswald. This is the the statement of a 12:15 “glimpse” of Oswald in the front foyer of 1st floor between the front doors and the 2nd set of  double doors to the warehouse

Then the March 18 1964 FBI statement which she DiD sign, Carolyn Arnold has NO mention of any sighting of Oswald WHAT SO Ever. There is Nothing at all about a 2nd floor lunchroom sighting.

That's because she is one of the employees for whom the timeframe is carefully restricted to "at the time President Kennedy was shot" (rather than, say, "at any time on 22 November 1963").

Quote
She changes time of exiting the TSBD from 12:15 to 12:25.

It’s not until 1978 when Carolyn
Arnold’s no.3 story of 2nd floor sighting of Oswald is told in interviews with Earl Golz and Anthony Summers.
And it was then that she denies the Nov 26/63 statement is true.

IDK what to think now, but I doubt seriously that the FBI would falsely make a statement that would give Oswald an alibi, such as having witness observing him in the front foyer entrance at 12:15

More probably, IMO, the FBI would be compelled by the Hoover memo to “convince” Carolyn Arnold that she must have seen Lovelady instead of Oswald and that a statement of NOT seeing Oswald at the time of shooting would be helpful.  And to sign that statement.

She actually comes close--------or is made appear come close--------to that in the Nov FBI interview report: "...thought she saw a fleeting glimpse of.... could not be sure that this was OSWALD..."

Quote
Hence the follow up March 18 1964 Signed FBI statement by Carolyn  Arnold declaring not seeing Oswald at time of shooting and no statement of lunchroom or any other sighting of Oswald.

I believe she saw Mr Oswald twice (lunchroom & behind glass doors), but by 1978 wished (out of fear) to disclaim the doorway sighting.

No one------but NO one------in 1978 even suspected, let alone knew (as we now do) that Mr Oswald had claimed a pre-assassination lunchroom visit. Ms Arnold is not inventing this sighting IMO.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 12:04:52 PM

No one------but NO one------in 1978 even suspected, let alone knew (as we now do) that Mr Oswald had claimed a pre-assassination lunchroom visit. Ms Arnold is not inventing this sighting IMO.

An analysis of the CE 1381's, specifically Arnold's and the co-workers she was with that day, supports the foyer sighting but refutes the 2nd floor lunchroom sighting.
Piper has Oswald on the first floor by noon.
The Jarman/Norman detail has him in the Domino Room @12:25, obviously on the first floor
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 03:44:48 PM
An analysis of the CE 1381's, specifically Arnold's and the co-workers she was with that day, supports the foyer sighting but refutes the 2nd floor lunchroom sighting.

How so?

Quote
Piper has Oswald on the first floor by noon.

Yes, and Shelley

Quote
The Jarman/Norman detail has him in the Domino Room @12:25, obviously on the first floor

Yes  Thumb1:

After breaking for lunch he comes down to one, then goes up to second floor lunchroom, then back down to one. Then goes outside to watch P. Parade.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 05:22:50 PM
Perhaps worth noting again the eyebrow-raising fact that Mr Shelley's March '64 FBI report interview (in CE1381) places Ms Arnold on the front steps at the time of the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
How so?

Arnold is part of a group of women who go out to watch the parade together. Most of them give the time as '12:15 when they go outside.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on February 05, 2021, 08:19:52 PM

Furthermore! If Officer Baker were anywhere near the front-of-house storage room, he wouldn't have needed anyone's help in finding the stairs............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/db/a4/jw5dxLBD_o.jpg)

That door you see is the door to the storage room!

 Thumb1:
Not wanting to disrupt the flow of the thread but thought these may be of interest.

(https://i.imgur.com/w4eiQAp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/82xyVDe.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oZhqT04.png)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Arnold is part of a group of women who go out to watch the parade together. Most of them give the time as '12:15 when they go outside.

Who says they exited the building with her?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 09:35:51 PM
Who says they exited the building with her?

I think Virgie Baker states she was "accompanied" by some of the girls including Arnold when she left the second floor to go outside.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 09:52:57 PM
I think Virgie Baker states she was "accompanied" by some of the girls including Arnold when she left the second floor to go outside.

Correct, the wording does give that impression Thumb1:

However I think Ms Arnold joined that group outside a little after and Ms Baker simply misremembered four months later.

Cf for example (and from the same CE1381) Ms Judy Johnson, whom Ms Baker includes in the group that supposedly accompanied her from the second floor. She tells a rather different story:

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office, Room 200, Texas School Book Depository Building, about 12 :15 P .M . to go. outside the building to watch the President's Motorcade pass which-was to pass along Elm Street in front of the building . I was with Miss Jeannie Holt, 2521 Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Stella Jacob, 508 South Marsalis St ., Dallas, Texas both employees of the Texas School Book Depository . We walked to the southwest corner of Elm and Houston Streets and were joined by Mrs. Bonnie Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt . 117, Dallas, Texas, Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, 3325 South Tyler St ., Dallas, Texas"

Ms Betty Dragoo seems to make the same error (if such it be, and if the interview statement is indeed an accurate rendition of what she says) as Ms Baker in this regard.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 10:02:00 PM
Friends, I still believe this man in the light brown jacket, captured here by Mr Hughes in the railroad yards minutes after the assassination, may possibly be the SN shooter. He ticks an improbable number of witness-description boxes-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/d6/c9/d6VGqE4T_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 10:04:53 PM
Correct, the wording does give that impression Thumb1:

However I think Ms Arnold joined that group outside a little after and Ms Baker simply misremembered four months later.

Cf for example (and from the same CE1381) Ms Judy Johnson, whom Ms Baker includes in the group that supposedly accompanied her from the second floor. She tells a rather different story:

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office, Room 200, Texas School Book Depository Building, about 12 :15 P .M . to go. outside the building to watch the President's Motorcade pass which-was to pass along Elm Street in front of the building . I was with Miss Jeannie Holt, 2521 Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Stella Jacob, 508 South Marsalis St ., Dallas, Texas both employees of the Texas School Book Depository . We walked to the southwest corner of Elm and Houston Streets and were joined by Mrs. Bonnie Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt . 117, Dallas, Texas, Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, 3325 South Tyler St ., Dallas, Texas"

Ms Betty Dragoo seems to make the same error (if such it be, and if the interview statement is indeed an accurate rendition of what she says) as Ms Baker in this regard.

The above example seems to confirm Arnold and Richey were together - Johnson was joined by Richey and Arnold.
It seems more likely Johnson misremembered as Holt and Jacob were down by the Stemmons sign with Sharon Simmons. None of them mention Johnson.
Arnold left the second floor with Virgie Richey (and others) @ 12:15
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 10:19:46 PM
The above example seems to confirm Arnold and Richey were together - Johnson was joined by Richey and Arnold.

Yes, they were together by that point, but that doesn't mean they went out together. Ms Richey says nothing to that effect. (Those CE1381 interviews are infuriatingly narrow in scope--all the more infuriating in that they are our only statements from a legion of Depository employees!)

Quote
It seems more likely Johnson misremembered as Holt and Jacob were down by the Stemmons sign with Sharon Simmons. None of them mention Johnson.

Well, they're offering a very compressed account. I doubt Ms Johnson would bring their names in for no good reason.
 
Quote
Arnold left the second floor with Virgie Richey (and others) @ 12:15

No, this has not been established.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 10:21:44 PM
Not wanting to disrupt the flow of the thread but thought these may be of interest.

(https://i.imgur.com/w4eiQAp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/82xyVDe.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oZhqT04.png)

Great thanks, Mr Hackerott!  Thumb1:

Eerie to think what ghosts might be haunting that small space
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 10:24:54 PM
Yes, they were together by that point, but that doesn't mean they went out together. Ms Richey says nothing to that effect. (Those CE1381 interviews are infuriatingly narrow in scope--all the more infuriating in that they are our only statements from a legion of Depository employees!)

Well, they're offering a very compressed account. I doubt Ms Johnson would bring their names in for no good reason.
 
No, this has not been established.

Come now Alan.
If Arnold wasn't with them why would they all mention her?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 10:29:15 PM
Come now Alan.
If Arnold wasn't with them why would they all mention her?

Because she was with them as the motorcade was approaching.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 10:47:32 PM
Because she was with them as the motorcade was approaching.


Hmmm...
Baker definitely states Arnold accompanied her from the second floor and there's nothing else that really contradicts that apart from Johnson's dodgy memory. The strong impression is that they were all together when they went outside.
Jeraldean Reid seems to confirm this:

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone

I think that little mystery is cleared up.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 10:54:00 PM

Hmmm...
Baker definitely states Arnold accompanied her from the second floor and there's nothing else that really contradicts that apart from Johnson's dodgy memory.

If that's the reading, then Ms Baker definitely states Ms Johnson accompanied her from the second floor, and that is directly contradicted by Ms Johnson. Calling her memory 'dodgy' does not resolve the issue.

Quote
The strong impression is that they were all together when they went outside.
Jeraldean Reid seems to confirm this:

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone

Perhaps Ms Arnold went to the bathroom?

Quote
I think that little mystery is cleared up.

You're being too hasty, Mr O'Meara!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 11:00:05 PM
If that's the reading, then Ms Baker definitely states Ms Johnson accompanied her from the second floor, and that is directly contradicted by Ms Johnson. Calling her memory 'dodgy' does not resolve the issue.

Perhaps Ms Arnold went to the bathroom?

You're being too hasty, Mr O'Meara!

Have it your way Alan  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 11:01:02 PM
Have it your way Alan  ;)

Boo, you're no fun!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 11:13:44 PM
Boo, you're no fun!

 ;D
By the time Arnold (perhaps) returns to the lunchroom after (perhaps) going to the toilet, Oswald would be down in the Domino room seeing Jarman and Norman come in through the back door (perhaps)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 11:19:06 PM
;D
By the time Arnold (perhaps) returns to the lunchroom after (perhaps) going to the toilet, Oswald would be down in the Domino room seeing Jarman and Norman come in through the back door (perhaps)

No, I think Ms Arnold saw him in there around the 12:20 mark.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 05, 2021, 11:38:26 PM
No, I think Ms Arnold saw him in there around the 12:20 mark.

So the girls leave and Arnold goes to the toilet leaving Reid in the lunchroom.
Arnold returns to the lunchroom and everyone is gone but Oswald has suddenly appeared (even though Arnold saw him five minutes earlier when she was stood outside and Oswald was in the foyer)
Oswald is sat at a table (having lunch?)
As soon as Arnold leaves, Oswald packs up and heads for the Domino room to have is lunch (again?) where he sees Jarman and Norman.

Hmmm...all seems a bit tricky to me.
Why not just go with what nearly all the testimonial is saying - Arnold leaves with the girls about 12:15. As she is stood outside and sees Oswald in the foyer about 12:15.
Forget the Oswald/Arnold second floor lunchroom encounter.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2021, 11:55:05 PM
So the girls leave and Arnold goes to the toilet leaving Reid in the lunchroom.

Ms Reid may already have left by this time.

Quote
Arnold returns to the lunchroom and everyone is gone but Oswald has suddenly appeared

Slow down, Mr O'Meara, you move too fast!

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.


Quote
(even though Arnold saw him five minutes earlier when she was stood outside and Oswald was in the foyer)

According to the time estimates given in the FBI interview report.

By contrast, from CE1381 (March 18):

(https://images2.imgbox.com/0b/c3/TZYCYd7D_o.jpg)

Time estimates are just that-------------estimates.

Ms Arnold sees Mr Oswald in the lunchroom ca. 12:20, then again ca. 12:25.

Quote
Oswald is sat at a table (having lunch?)

He may have started to eat. He may have his apple and/or unopened sandwich on the table in front of him. He may be reading a newspaper or somesuch.

Quote
As soon as Arnold leaves, Oswald packs up and heads for the Domino room to have is lunch (again?)

Either to start eating (with the coke) or to continue eating

Quote
where he sees Jarman and Norman.

Yep

Quote
Hmmm...all seems a bit tricky to me.
Why not just go with what nearly all the testimonial is saying - Arnold leaves with the girls about 12:15. As she is stood outside and sees Oswald in the foyer about 12:15.

Because a) that's not what nearly all the testimony is saying, b) Ms Arnold was quite emphatic about the lunchroom sighting when she spoke with Messrs Golz and Summers. Why would she want to make this up? And isn't it striking that her claim chimes not just with what Mr Dougherty saw but also with a claim by Mr Oswald that would not properly become known until 2019?

Quote
Forget the Oswald/Arnold second floor lunchroom encounter.

Sorry, Mr O'Meara, no can do!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 06, 2021, 12:22:45 AM
Ms Reid may already have left by this time.

Slow down, Mr O'Meara, you move too fast!

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.


According to the time estimates given in the FBI interview report.

By contrast, from CE1381 (March 18):

(https://images2.imgbox.com/0b/c3/TZYCYd7D_o.jpg)

Time estimates are just that-------------estimates.

Ms Arnold sees Mr Oswald in the lunchroom ca. 12:20, then again ca. 12:25.

He may have started to eat. He may have his apple and/or unopened sandwich on the table in front of him. He may be reading a newspaper or somesuch.

Either to start eating (with the coke) or to continue eating

Yep

Because a) that's not what nearly all the testimony is saying, b) Ms Arnold was quite emphatic about the lunchroom sighting when she spoke with Messrs Golz and Summers. Why would she want to make this up? And isn't it striking that her claim chimes not just with what Mr Dougherty saw but also with a claim by Mr Oswald that would not properly become known until 2019?

Sorry, Mr O'Meara, no can do!

You're dismissing too much testimony and creating too many maybes.
Now you're twisting the times around and have Oswald having lunch on the second floor then the first floor.
The ladies she 'accompanies' out of the building give a time @12:15, the same time Arnold gives for seeing Oswald in the foyer.
Occam's Razor
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 06, 2021, 12:35:45 AM
You're dismissing too much testimony and creating too many maybes.
Now you're twisting the times around and have Oswald having lunch on the second floor then the first floor.

No, I never said that.

Quote
The ladies she 'accompanies' out of the building give a time @12:15

Again, you only have Ms Baker giving that impression----------the same Ms Baker who also has Ms Johnson accompanying her from the lunchroom, a notion directly contradicted by Ms Johnson herself.

Quote
, the same time Arnold gives for seeing Oswald in the foyer.

And yet in her March '64 interview she says she left the building at 12:25.

We don't know that Ms Arnold gave 12:15 as the time in the original FBI interview. If she told them she saw Mr Oswald behind the front door ca. five minutes before the shooting, there is not a snowball's chance in hell they would have let that stand.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 06, 2021, 12:49:56 AM
No, I never said that.

Again, you only have Ms Baker giving that impression----------the same Ms Baker who also has Ms Johnson accompanying her from the lunchroom, a notion directly contradicted by Ms Johnson herself.

And yet in her March '64 interview she says she left the building at 12:25.

We don't know that Ms Arnold gave 12:15 as the time in the original FBI interview. If she told them she saw Mr Oswald behind the front door ca. five minutes before the shooting, there is not a snowball's chance in hell they would have let that stand.

So, in your scenario - even though there is ample testimonial evidence the girls all left together and went outside, Arnold went to the toilet instead (maybe). She then decided to return to the lunchroom (maybe). In the time it took her to go to the toilet Oswald appeared sat at a table, maybe having lunch, maybe reading a newspaper. Arnold goes to join her friends outside (something nobody mentions). In the meantime Oswald goes down to the Domino room where he sees Jarman and Norman come in the back door. After this he goes to the foyer where Arnold sees him.
How's that?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 06, 2021, 01:04:16 AM
So, in your scenario - even though there is ample testimonial evidence the girls all left together and went outside,

There isn't a single solid piece of testimonial evidence to that effect.

Quote
Arnold went to the toilet instead (maybe).

That's one possibility. Another is she lingered in the office (as suggested in her original FBI report). The fact that these possibilities, and more, are readily available means your knock-down argument against her 1978 claim is easily knocked down.

Quote
She then decided to return to the lunchroom (maybe).

No maybe about it. She said she decided to go to the lunchroom. (Where are you getting 'return to' from btw?) I'm not inventing anything here, just listening to the witness. She was quite emphatic about this. Why would she make this up, especially when she can have had no idea of its true significance (i.e. as a startling corroboration of Mr Oswald's actual claim in custody that he visited the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the assassination)?

Quote
In the time it took her to go to the toilet Oswald appeared sat at a table

No, he could have been there before that, and she may not have gone to the toilet. What's the big problem?

Quote
, maybe having lunch, maybe reading a newspaper.

Sure. What's the big problem?

Quote
Arnold goes to join her friends outside (something nobody mentions).

Why would they mention it? It's no big deal.

Quote
In the meantime Oswald goes down to the Domino room where he sees Jarman and Norman come in the back door.

Yes.

Quote
After this he goes to the foyer where Arnold sees him.

Yes-------he probably checked out the front more than once in this time period. No big deal!

And then, at the last minute, he went outside to watch the P. Parade. No big deal!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 06, 2021, 01:29:37 AM
The way I see it, Carolyn Arnold’s March 64 FBI statement does NOT refute the Nov 26 /63 statement for the reason as Mr.Ford pointed out, that there is only a statement of not seeing Oswald at the time of shooting.

However, time of exiting TSBD has changed to 12:25

Therefore the 2 statements can be ADDED together  such that Carolyn Arnold although not absolutely certain, nevertheless thinks she may have seen have seen Oswald in the 1st floor entrance foyer at approx 12:25.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 06, 2021, 01:44:22 AM
IMO this 12:25 possible sighting by Carolyn Arnold of Oswakd in the front entrance foyer, works out quite well with Jarman and Norman’s return to back door of TSBD at approx 12:23

I have 12:23 because of Jarman and Norman having heard radio transmission at 12:22

Also Jarman and Norman have to be AT their windows on 5th floor BEFORE BRW joins them

Also BRW has to off the 6th floor by about 12:24 so that there is time for the SE gunman to get to the SE window to place a box on the window ledge by approx 12:25 when the Bronson films starts and records that box now in the window
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 06, 2021, 01:47:45 AM
There isn't a single solid piece of testimonial evidence to that effect.

?? Reid testifies all the girls left together and Baker testifies she was accompanied by Arnold on her way out.
What are you talking about? Both Dragoo and Richey confirm they were all together.

Quote
No maybe about it. She said she decided to go to the lunchroom. (Where are you getting 'return to' from btw?) I'm not inventing anything here, just listening to the witness. She was quite emphatic about this. Why would she make this up, especially when she can have had no idea of its true significance (i.e. as a startling corroboration of Mr Oswald's actual claim in custody that he visited the second floor lunchroom BEFORE the assassination)?

Where am I getting "return" from??
You're the one saying she left the lunchroom and returned to it. How else does she see Oswald in there if she didn't return to it?
Think about it

Quote
No, he could have been there before that, and she may not have gone to the toilet. What's the big problem?

He could have been there before she left the lunchroom??
What are you on about?

Quote
And then, at the last minute, he went outside to watch the P. Parade. No big deal!

Inspector Kelley - "I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not..."    ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 06, 2021, 01:58:33 AM
?? Reid testifies all the girls left together

Where does she mention Ms Arnold as part of this group in the lunchroom?

Quote
and Baker testifies she was accompanied by Arnold on her way out.

Already addressed

Quote
What are you talking about? Both Dragoo and Richey confirm they were all together.

Yes-----------outside.

Quote
Where am I getting "return" from??
You're the one saying she left the lunchroom and returned to it.

No, she may not have been among the girls who ate lunch in the lunchroom.

Quote
How else does she see Oswald in there if she didn't return to it?
Think about it

She didn't have to have returned to it, merely to have gone into it.

Quote
He could have been there before she left the lunchroom??

How do you know she was in the lunchroom in the first place?

Quote
What are you on about?

Inspector Kelley - "I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not..."    ;)

Already addressed. Inspector Kelley liked to gild the lily
----------Mr Oswald eating lunch alone but seeing two black coworkers pass through----------------->Mr Oswald eating lunch WITH two black coworkers
----------Mr Oswald denies shooting JFK; Mr Oswald denies shooting Gov. Connolly------------------>Mr Oswald denies those two things AND having viewed the parade (Agent Bookhout, nor anyone else, records any such statement, even though they sat in on the same interview)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 06, 2021, 03:33:47 PM
Where does she mention Ms Arnold as part of this group in the lunchroom?

Already addressed

Yes-----------outside.

No, she may not have been among the girls who ate lunch in the lunchroom.

She didn't have to have returned to it, merely to have gone into it.

How do you know she was in the lunchroom in the first place?

Already addressed. Inspector Kelley liked to gild the lily
----------Mr Oswald eating lunch alone but seeing two black coworkers pass through----------------->Mr Oswald eating lunch WITH two black coworkers
----------Mr Oswald denies shooting JFK; Mr Oswald denies shooting Gov. Connolly------------------>Mr Oswald denies those two things AND having viewed the parade (Agent Bookhout, nor anyone else, records any such statement, even though they sat in on the same interview)

Unbelievably weak nonsense Alan.
You may have addressed Baker's description of Arnold accompanying her and the rest of the girls but you've not dealt with it.
It is clear from the 1381's this group of women are together - Arnold, Baker, Richey, Dragoo, Johnson
It is clear from the 1381's they leave together, this is confirmed by Reid's statement.
She is outside around 12:15-12:20

You can twist the meaning of anything you want and create as many maybe's as you want.
I'll stick to a common sense interpretaion of the evidence thanks very much.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 06, 2021, 07:06:03 PM
Unbelievably weak nonsense Alan.

Let's see who's the one peddling unbelievably weak nonsense, shall we, Mr O'Meara?

Quote
You may have addressed Baker's description of Arnold accompanying her and the rest of the girls but you've not dealt with it.
It is clear from the 1381's this group of women are together - Arnold, Baker, Richey, Dragoo, Johnson
It is clear from the 1381's they leave together,

I'm afraid you're still coming up empty here.........

---------Ms Arnold gives a later time for her exit from the building than any of the other four
---------Ms Arnold and Ms Richey say nothing about who they left the second floor with
---------Ms Baker gives the impression that they were all together as they exited the building, but unfortunately her account is directly contradicted by Ms Johnson
---------Ms Dragoo can't help you much, as the wording is more vague and her statement contains the same error re. Ms Johnson

CE1381 was conducted as a bureaucratic box-ticking exercise (and was thus a tremendous missed opportunity). 'When did you leave the building?' 'Who were you with outside?' 'Where exactly were you outside?' etc. The answers were then put in narrative form, and not by the interviewee. Small wonder ambiguities and apparent contradictions crept in.

Ms Arnold, Ms Dragoo, Ms Baker and Ms Richey probably lingered at the front entrance before moving out together closer to the street. It was at this point, and not at the point of first going out the front door, that they became a four-person 'team'. (Remember: Ms Johnson recalls these four having 'joined' her and the other two; at some point after this, Ms Holt & Ms Jacob headed west together.)

CE1381, in short, gives you nothing but contrived pseudo-problems with which to undermine Ms Arnold's claim to have seen Mr Oswald in the lunchroom several minutes before the assassination. Your efforts to present this claim as somehow requiring a violation of the laws of time, space and physics have gotten you-----nowhere.

Quote
this is confirmed by Reid's statement.

OK, so quote Ms Reid telling us she saw Ms Arnold, Ms Richey, Ms Dragoo, Ms Baker & Ms Johnson exit the building together. You can't, can you? You're just making this up.

Quote
She is outside around 12:15-12:20

Wanting this to be true doesn't make it true.

Quote
You can twist the meaning of anything you want and create as many maybe's as you want.
I'll stick to a common sense interpretaion of the evidence thanks very much.

Lol
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 09, 2021, 12:32:40 AM
I found the photo in this forum photo gallery of the Dr.Pepper bottle on the front steps and it’s definitely a SOLID white oval shaped label. There is NO diagonal dark slash thru it like the bottle the cop has in that other photo Mr. Ford posted earlier

SO THERE!!! It’s all connected now (IMO) quite nicely, except for Mr, Fords insistence on Oswald getting a coke from the2nd  floor lunchroom which has really no reason to have to be the case if Mrs Reid’s T shirt and coke story is being tossed aside

Even if there’s some way to reconcile Mrs Reid’s meeting with T shirt man as Oswald, it’s not really saying he did not have  a Dr. Pepper while at the position of PM

I’m
Staying with my theory that the hand holding the Dr. Pepper bottle at the base allow approx half of that solid white label exposed to the camera of Weigman and is the reason for the extra white effect.

Is less probable if it were a coke which had only white cursive lettering and this much less area of white to cause such a solid white blotch as it appears imo.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 09, 2021, 01:21:40 AM
I found the photo in this forum photo gallery of the Dr.Pepper bottle on the front steps and it’s definitely a SOLID white oval shaped label. There is NO diagonal dark slash thru it like the bottle the cop has in that other photo Mr. Ford posted earlier

SO THERE!!! It’s all connected now (IMO) quite nicely, except for Mr, Fords insistence on Oswald getting a coke from the2nd  floor lunchroom which has really no reason to have to be the case if Mrs Reid’s T shirt and coke story is being tossed aside

Even if there’s some way to reconcile Mrs Reid’s meeting with T shirt man as Oswald, it’s not really saying he did not have  a Dr. Pepper while at the position of PM

I’m
Staying with my theory that the hand holding the Dr. Pepper bottle at the base allow approx half of that solid white label exposed to the camera of Weigman and is the reason for the extra white effect.

Is less probable if it were a coke which had only white cursive lettering and this much less area of white to cause such a solid white blotch as it appears imo.

Why not simply accept Lee Oswald's statement. He said that he went to he 2nd floor lunchroom to get a.. Quote---"Coca -Cola"

And the soft drink machine in the 2nd floor lunch room was in fact a COKE machine it did not dispense Dr Pepper.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 09, 2021, 04:58:27 AM
Because
A. The bottle found at the very step that PM steps down too, by the west wall is NOT A COKE
B. The Dr.Pepper was Oswalds favorite drink, and it’s much easier to get from the ground floor machine than to have to climb up 18 steps and go thru 2 doors and enter into lunchroom and have to go back down 18 steps again
C, the COCA COLA white cursive lettering is MINIMAL white area on the bottle as opposed to the SOLID white oval shaped Dr.Pepper bottle. This the white label half exposed in Weigman film, above PMs hand holding at the base is the more probable
D. The Allen photo of Dr. Pepper bottle on the steps of TSBD in the slot recess on the very step  by PM is SOLID white oval logo WITHOUT the diagonal dark bar which makes it NOT the bottle seen in the hand of a cop in the photo Mr. Ford posted earlier here in this thread.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 09, 2021, 05:00:15 AM
I found the photo in this forum photo gallery of the Dr.Pepper bottle on the front steps and it’s definitely a SOLID white oval shaped label.

There's an object in front of the bottle

(https://images2.imgbox.com/8b/0f/VrHaxb9W_o.jpg)

Quote
Mr, Fords insistence on Oswald getting a coke from the2nd  floor lunchroom

Not my insistence, Mr Oswald's!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 09, 2021, 05:16:42 AM
Eureka! Maybe Mr. Ford has found the coke bottle that MR LOVELADY for certain did take out to the front steps.

 I can’t quite determine for certain if that’s another bottle beside the Dr. Pepper bottle , however if it is, it definitely does NOT have any significant area of white  label similar to The Dr. Pepper logo, hence reinforcing my proposition that a coke bottle with minimal white cursive lettering would NOT produce such an area of white blotch area as seen in PMs hand in Weigman film


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 09, 2021, 07:52:08 AM
Eureka! Maybe Mr. Ford has found the coke bottle that MR LOVELADY for certain did take out to the front steps.

 I can’t quite determine for certain if that’s another bottle beside the Dr. Pepper bottle , however if it is, it definitely does NOT have any significant area of white  label similar to The Dr. Pepper logo, hence reinforcing my proposition that a coke bottle with minimal white cursive lettering would NOT produce such an area of white blotch area as seen in PMs hand in Weigman film

No, the Allen photograph shows what appears to be a Dr Pepper bottle with some object (not a bottle) in front of it.

If Prayer Man is right at the shadow line, we may be seeing sunlight catching some of the bottle..........

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a4/42/wQrEqXka_o.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 10, 2021, 08:05:14 PM
The above example seems to confirm Arnold and Richey were together - Johnson was joined by Richey and Arnold.
It seems more likely Johnson misremembered as Holt and Jacob were down by the Stemmons sign with Sharon Simmons.

"Down by the Stemmons sign".  LOL.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 10, 2021, 10:47:51 PM
"Down by the Stemmons sign".  LOL.

Holt and Jacob both describe walking about 50 yards towards the underpass
Simmons states they were about half way between the TSBD and the underpass
All consistent with a location somewhere near the Stemmons sign.

Try to have your facts straight before you criticise, it would make you appear less buffoonish.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 10, 2021, 11:49:39 PM
Holt and Jacob both describe walking about 50 yards towards the underpass
Simmons states they were about half way between the TSBD and the underpass
All consistent with a location somewhere near the Stemmons sign.

No, the Stemmons sign was about 70 yards from the TSBD entrance, which was still way short of "half way between the TSBD and the underpass".

Quote
Try to have your facts straight before you criticise, it would make you appear less buffoonish.

I always have my facts straight.  If you weren't so defensive and combative whenever you make unsupported truth claims, it would make you appear less buffoonish.  The people you always claim (without evidence) to be Holt, Jacob, and Simmons aren't even standing by the sign.  It just appears that way because of the perspective from Zapruder's position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 12:22:49 AM
No, the Stemmons sign was about 70 yards from the TSBD entrance, which was still way short of "half way between the TSBD and the underpass".

I always have my facts straight.  If you weren't so defensive and combative whenever you make unsupported truth claims, it would make you appear less buffoonish.  The people you always claim (without evidence) to be Holt, Jacob, and Simmons aren't even standing by the sign.  It just appears that way because of the perspective from Zapruder's position.

"I always have my facts straight."
"...the Stemmons sign was about 70 yards from the TSBD entrance"


 :D :D :D  You are something else.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 11, 2021, 12:32:39 AM
"I always have my facts straight."
"...the Stemmons sign was about 70 yards from the TSBD entrance"


 :D :D :D  You are something else.

Do you have information to the contrary?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 12:53:41 AM
Do you have information to the contrary?

Yes I do John.
The Stemmons sign is barely 40 yards from the TSBD entrance.
You don't have to look too hard to find a plan of Dealey Plaza. Get on it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 11, 2021, 12:55:33 AM
Yes I do John.
The Stemmons sign is barely 40 yards from the TSBD entrance.
You don't have to look too hard to find a plan of Dealey Plaza. Get on it.

I did exactly that, using Don Roberdeau's map.  That's where I got 70 yards.

(https://i.imgur.com/yPFbsFl.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2021, 01:11:21 AM
I did exactly that, using Don Roberdeau's map.  That's where I got 70 yards.

(https://i.imgur.com/yPFbsFl.gif)

John I just performed a quick check, and It looks like the sign was about 42 yards from the entrance to the TSBD.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 01:21:52 AM
I did exactly that, using Don Roberdeau's map.  That's where I got 70 yards.

(https://i.imgur.com/yPFbsFl.gif)

Interesting.
I used this and got a very different result

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvHC9Jqt/Dealey-Plaza.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 02:24:30 AM
I found another schematic which agrees with the one I've been using.
It looks like Roberdeau's map is wrong in a fundamental way which is really surprising if true.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2021, 02:40:24 AM
Interesting.
I used this and got a very different result

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvHC9Jqt/Dealey-Plaza.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The TSBD is shown in both diagrams....We know that the TSBD was 100 feet across the south face.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2021, 08:28:44 AM
None of this low-stakes conversation has anything to do with Mr Oswald's bombshell claim to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 12:24:26 PM
None of this low-stakes conversation has anything to do with Mr Oswald's bombshell claim to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade

Or Kelley's claim that he didn't.

And FYI, the Roberdeau map is trusted by may researchers. If there is a glaring error, it is something people should be aware of.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 11, 2021, 09:47:43 PM
Ive calculated that Baker entered the front door of TSBD approx 35 sec post shots

It would have taken only about 5-7 secs more to cross the front foyer heading for the front staircase where Baker draws his gun in preparation to begin ascending a staircase he thought led to  the rooftop of TSBD.

So Baker already has gun drawn when he sees Oswald either having opened the storage room door or just having entered.

HEY YOU!! Baker shouts at Oswald, (still wearing his brown shirt.) Do you work here? I need to get to the roof.

Oswald answers: Uh, yea, I work in this building, That staircase doesn’t go to the roof though, only to the 2nd floor.

This bit of conversation takes another
8 secs of time

At this point Truly has entered and sees Baker with gun in hand talking to somebody just out of LOS of Truly

So Truly walks to Baker and then sees  Oswald and mistakes Baker thinking Oswald is suspicious because of  the gun drawn, and Truly confirms Oswald is an employee.

So this sequence adds the required extra 15 seconds that explain Baker/Truly not opening the “double doors” (as Carolyn Arnold referenced in the Nov 26/63 FBI report) until approx 55 -60sec post shots and after another delay 5-7 seconds as Truly had to unlock the countertop, why Baker/Truly did not start their  diagonal trek to rear elevators and staircase until approx 65 sec post shots.

That Is why Baker/Truly did NOT see Adams and Stiles (and vis versa) on rear staircase to 1st floor and A&S exiting  the roll up door beside west elevator by 60 sec post shots.

Now the Mrs Reid 2 minute post shots meeting with Oswald in a T-shirt can plausibly be solved

If at 55 to 60 sec post shots, Baker/Truly have left Oswald at the storage room, this gives the following Oswald movement sequence:

1. Returns to storage room to take off his brown shirt = 10 sec
2. Exits storage room in just his T - shirt and walks to passenger elevator= 10 sec
3 Elevator to 2nd floor = 5 sec
4. 50 ft hallway + 30 ft hallway +10ft vestibule at 5ft/sec pace= 90/5= 18
sec
The time of passing in the 2nd floor “vestibule” is therefore at earliest =
43 secs after Baker/Truly leave Oswald at 55 sec post shots, = 98 seconds post shots= TOO late to have a 2nd encounter with Baker at 85 sec post shots on 2nd floor landing.

But it works out perfectly with Mrs Reid meeting because if Oswald enters lunchroom approx 98-100 secs post shots it takes about another 20 secs to walk across floor to Coke machine, buy the coke, walk back across floor, and enter the 2nd floor office rear door at approx 120 sec = 2min post shots

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 11, 2021, 10:33:28 PM
Interesting.
I used this and got a very different result

I agree.  It looks like about 40 yards on that one.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2021, 10:43:29 PM
I agree.  It looks like about 40 yards on that one.

This isn't rocket science.....The TSBD measures 100 feet across the south face ( Actually the TSBD was 100 ' square.)

It' a piece o cake to use the TSBD as a scale to determine ant distance in the plaza.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 10:44:19 PM
I agree.  It looks like about 40 yards on that one.

Have a look at this one and see what you think
(I can't upload it because it's massive and when I shrink it all the detail get's lost when I zoom in)

https://craigciccone.wordpress.com/schematic-of-dealey-plaza/
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 10:45:20 PM
This isn't rocket science.....The TSBD measures 100 feet across the south face ( Actually the TSBD was 100 ' square.)

It' a piece o cake to use the TSBD as a scale to determine ant distance in the plaza.

Where are you getting this info from Walt?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 11, 2021, 11:02:05 PM
Have a look at this one and see what you think
(I can't upload it because it's massive and when I shrink it all the detail get's lost when I zoom in)

https://craigciccone.wordpress.com/schematic-of-dealey-plaza/

Yes, that looks like about 33 yards to me.  Here's a crop I did with the scale attached.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/ciccone-crop.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 11, 2021, 11:24:04 PM
Yes, that looks like about 33 yards to me.  Here's a crop I did with the scale attached.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/ciccone-crop.png)

I think someone needs to be getting in touch with Mr Roberdeau.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2021, 11:29:15 PM
But it works out perfectly with Mrs Reid meeting because if Oswald enters lunchroom approx 98-100 secs post shots it takes about another 20 secs to walk across floor to Coke machine, buy the coke, walk back across floor, and enter the 2nd floor office rear door at approx 120 sec = 2min post shots

Mr Oswald said he bought the Coke BEFORE the motorcade, reason being he bought the Coke before the motorcade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2021, 11:31:59 PM
Where are you getting this info from Walt?

I worked that out many years ago, (By finding the width of the windows)  before I knew about the diagrams the  detectives had created of the sixth floor which show the length and width of the building.  And there are several diagrams of the various floors of the TSBD in the WR , (page150) that confirm the building was 100 feet square.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 12, 2021, 01:20:47 AM
I worked that out many years ago, (By finding the width of the windows)  before I knew about the diagrams the  detectives had created of the sixth floor which show the length and width of the building.  And there are several diagrams of the various floors of the TSBD in the WR , (page150) that confirm the building was 100 feet square.

This diagram shows the front of the TSBD was about 80 ft

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4X2BckK/TSBD-2nd-floorplan.gif) (https://postimg.cc/67gWPd6p)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2021, 01:39:36 AM
This diagram shows the front of the TSBD was about 80 ft

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4X2BckK/TSBD-2nd-floorplan.gif) (https://postimg.cc/67gWPd6p)

Look.... The scale starts at 5 feet negative   so the full length is 25 feet .....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 12, 2021, 02:09:12 AM
Look.... The scale starts at 5 feet negative   so the full length is 25 feet .....

My bad Walt, missed that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2021, 05:54:30 PM
Mr Oswald said he bought the Coke BEFORE the motorcade, reason being he bought the Coke before the motorcade

Mr Oswald said he bought the Coke BEFORE the motorcade, reason being he bought the Coke before the motorcade

Actually Nobody, not even Lee, could know whether he bought the coke BEFORE the motorcade arrived....He said that he interrupted his lunch to go to the second floor to buy a coke.....   and while he was there, a motorcycle policeman burst into the lunchroom.   

It would appear that Lee went to the 2nd floor at about the same time the motorcade was approaching the TSBD. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2021, 06:40:16 PM
My bad Walt, missed that.

Very easy to make that mistake....But refreshing to see a poster who readily admits an error... :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2021, 07:34:31 PM
Mr Oswald said he bought the Coke BEFORE the motorcade, reason being he bought the Coke before the motorcade

Actually Nobody, not even Lee, could know whether he bought the coke BEFORE the motorcade arrived....He said that he interrupted his lunch to go to the second floor to buy a coke.....   and while he was there, a motorcycle policeman burst into the lunchroom.   

It would appear that Lee went to the 2nd floor at about the same time the motorcade was approaching the TSBD.

It would appear that you think you can still get away with pretending this doesn't exist............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/57/92/FfKFvCLe_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2021, 08:40:28 PM
It would appear that you think you can still get away with pretending this doesn't exist............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/57/92/FfKFvCLe_o.jpg)

"O stated that he was present for work at the TSBD on the morning of 11/22, and at noon he went to lunch. He went to the 2nd floor to get a Coca-Cola, to eat with his lunch, and returned to the 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch the P. parade. " 

This will probably be a futile effort to show a man with his head firmly inserted that he's incorrect in his belief.... But I'll try.

"O stated that he was present for work at the TSBD on the morning of 11/22, and at noon he went to lunch."

 "at noon he went to lunch."

Lee may have discontinued working at NOON, but of course he didn't start eating his lunch at noon.... We can know that because he stated that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom....  But that lunchroom was full of TSBD warehouse workers at noon, and NOBODY saw Lee there while they were eating their lunch....Furthermore Lee said that He saw Jarman and Norman pass by the 1st floor lunchroom as he was eating his lunch.  J& N testified that the walked by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27.  Thus there are many unaware witnesses who corroborate Lee's  alibi.

""He went to the 2nd floor to get a Coca-Cola, to eat with his lunch, and returned to the 1st floor to eat lunch."

It is a fact that Lee was approached in the 2nd floor lunchroom, just after buying a coke,  by DPD officer Marrion Baker.  We know that time was about 12:32 .....  and after Baker departed from the 2nd floor lunchroom, Lee returned to the 1st floor lunchroom.

(He) "Then went outside to watch the P. parade. "

This scribbled statement does not make the information the absolute "cast in stone", honest-to- God truth.

IF Lee actually related that information to  Bookhout then it's entirely possible that Lee believed that the P. parade was passing by at the time he headed for the front door.     Or it's also possible that Bookhout misunderstood or misinterpreted what Lee said.    When Bookhout transcribed his scribbled notes on 11/25/63  and typed up his 302 to be filed he wrote:

quote..."He stated that he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca- Cola from the soft drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee, and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.  Oswald stated that he took his coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunchroom.   He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home.".... unquote   

Pssst...Mr Ford.. Perhaps you can extract your head enough to see that when Bookhout used the scribbled notes to type up his report he said NOTHING about the P. parade passing when Lee went outside..... 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 12, 2021, 08:48:04 PM

Oswald was seen by Baker with his brown shirt on and NO Bottle in hand ,while Mrs Reid saw Oswald in T-shirt only and an UNOPENED coke in hand

The probable reason imo is that Oswald bought a Dr. Pepper from 1st floor machine which he drank while out on the front steps and then left it there at that step in the recess as photographed in Allen photo.

Whether Oswald ever really went up to the  floor lunchroom to buy a coke and not open it , In effect the SECOND bottle of soda bought AFTER Oswald returns into TSBD, is the scenario Mrs Reid’s story requires a plausible explanation other than “she’s crazy” :)

That’s what I’m try to do in constructing a timeline for Oswald as PM



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2021, 09:04:57 PM
Oswald was seen by Baker with his brown shirt on and NO Bottle in hand ,while Mrs Reid saw Oswald in T-shirt only and an UNOPENED coke in hand

The probable reason imo is that Oswald bought a Dr. Pepper from 1st floor machine which he drank while out on the front steps and then left it there at that step in the recess as photographed in Allen photo.

Whether Oswald ever really went up to the  floor lunchroom to buy a coke and not open it , In effect the SECOND bottle of soda bought AFTER Oswald returns into TSBD, is the scenario Mrs Reid’s story requires a plausible explanation other than “she’s crazy” :)

That’s what I’m try to do in constructing a timeline for Oswald as PM

That’s what I’m try to do in constructing a timeline for Oswald as PM

Perhaps it would be a bit more exact if you were to say...... That’s what I’m try to do in masturbating...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2021, 09:07:03 PM
"O stated that he was present for work at the TSBD on the morning of 11/22, and at noon he went to lunch. He went to the 2nd floor to get a Coca-Cola, to eat with his lunch, and returned to the 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch the P. parade. " 

This will probably be a futile effort to show a man with his head firmly inserted that he's incorrect in his belief.... But I'll try.

"O stated that he was present for work at the TSBD on the morning of 11/22, and at noon he went to lunch."

 "at noon he went to lunch."

Lee may have discontinued working at NOON, but of course he didn't start eating his lunch at noon.... We can know that because he stated that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom....  But that lunchroom was full of TSBD warehouse workers at noon, and NOBODY saw Lee there while they were eating their lunch....Furthermore Lee said that He saw Jarman and Norman pass by the 1st floor lunchroom as he was eating his lunch.  J& N testified that the walked by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27.  Thus there are many unaware witnesses who corroborate Lee's  alibi.

""He went to the 2nd floor to get a Coca-Cola, to eat with his lunch, and returned to the 1st floor to eat lunch."

It is a fact that Lee was approached in the 2nd floor lunchroom, just after buying a coke,  by DPD officer Marrion Baker.  We know that time was about 12:32 .....  and after Baker departed from the 2nd floor lunchroom, Lee returned to the 1st floor lunchroom.

(He) "Then went outside to watch the P. parade. "

This scribbled statement does not make the information the absolute "cast in stone", honest-to- God truth.

IF Lee actually related that information to  Bookhout then it's entirely possible that Lee believed that the P. parade was passing by at the time he headed for the front door.     Or it's also possible that Bookhout misunderstood or misinterpreted what Lee said.    When Bookhout transcribed his scribbled notes on 11/25/63  and typed up his 302 to be filed he wrote:

quote..."He stated that he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca- Cola from the soft drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee, and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.  Oswald stated that he took his coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunchroom.   He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home.".... unquote   

Pssst...Mr Ford.. Perhaps you can extract your head enough to see that when Bookhout used the scribbled notes to type up his report he said NOTHING about the P. parade passing when Lee went outside.....

'This fresh piece of evidence conflicts with my ancient pet theory, so I'll try to bury its plain sense with a tortured interpretation'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2021, 09:10:19 PM
Oswald was seen by Baker with his brown shirt on and NO Bottle in hand ,while Mrs Reid saw Oswald in T-shirt only and an UNOPENED coke in hand

The probable reason imo is that Oswald bought a Dr. Pepper from 1st floor machine which he drank while out on the front steps and then left it there at that step in the recess as photographed in Allen photo.

Mr Oswald's shirt was reddish.

Ms Reid said nothing about an unopened bottle of coke.

You're needlessly complicating a simple sequence of events------------

1. Mr Oswald breaks for lunch
2. Mr Oswald buys a coke
3. Mr Oswald eats on one
4. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch P. Parade.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 12, 2021, 09:33:04 PM
Mr Oswald's shirt was reddish.

Ms Reid said nothing about an unopened bottle of coke.

You're needlessly complicating a simple sequence of events------------

1. Mr Oswald breaks for lunch
2. Mr Oswald buys a coke
3. Mr Oswald eats on one
4. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch P. Parade.

When Mr Oswald buys his coke, would this be at the same time all the young ladies on the second floor are having their lunch?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 12, 2021, 09:55:44 PM
Mr Ford is correct. Mrs Reid stated the  bottle of coke was “full”.

So “unopened” was inaccurate.

Nevertheless, from Bakers and Trulys WC testimony  neither saw anything in
Oswalds hands such as a bottle.

Maybe they were fibbing. IDK

If the coke that Reid saw was “full” then it’s not likely the bottle That PM was drinking  while at the front steps.

Since Baker didn’t see anything in Oswalds hands then that coke that Mrs Reid saw in Oswalds hands could only be a coke Oswald bought AFTER having met Baker, whether on the 1st floor or the second floor.

On the rationale that because Mrs Reid was telling her story BEFORE Oswald was even yet a suspect, and that she was NOT a loon and or a liar, It is therefore necessary to integrate her story somehow with the Oswald=PM timeline.

Generally I am in agreement with PM=Oswald due to Mr Fords presentation of the Altgen photo anomaly of the upraised forearm and hand with a bottle in it (imo)

I see the logic of Mr.Ford relying on the Hosty reference to “coke” if one is going to accept the entire statement including “P.Parade”.

Walt apparently disagrees with the PM=Oswald theory and seems to think my attempt to construct a timeline for PM is analogous to some act that is normally not a subject for discussion in a JFK forum as it’s mostly irrelevant except possibly in connection to an alleged affair of JFK and Marilyn Monroe.

I

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 13, 2021, 12:59:24 AM
Mr Ford is correct. Mrs Reid stated the  bottle of coke was “full”.

So “unopened” was inaccurate.

Nevertheless, from Bakers and Trulys WC testimony  neither saw anything in
Oswalds hands such as a bottle.

Maybe they were fibbing. IDK

If the coke that Reid saw was “full” then it’s not likely the bottle That PM was drinking  while at the front steps.

Since Baker didn’t see anything in Oswalds hands then that coke that Mrs Reid saw in Oswalds hands could only be a coke Oswald bought AFTER having met Baker, whether on the 1st floor or the second floor.

On the rationale that because Mrs Reid was telling her story BEFORE Oswald was even yet a suspect, and that she was NOT a loon and or a liar, It is therefore necessary to integrate her story somehow with the Oswald=PM timeline.

Generally I am in agreement with PM=Oswald due to Mr Fords presentation of the Altgen photo anomaly of the upraised forearm and hand with a bottle in it (imo)

I see the logic of Mr.Ford relying on the Hosty reference to “coke” if one is going to accept the entire statement including “P.Parade”.

Walt apparently disagrees with the PM=Oswald theory and seems to think my attempt to construct a timeline for PM is analogous to some act that is normally not a subject for discussion in a JFK forum as it’s mostly irrelevant except possibly in connection to an alleged affair of JFK and Marilyn Monroe.

I

Nevertheless, from Bakers and Trulys WC testimony  neither saw anything in
Oswalds hands such as a bottle.

Maybe they were fibbing. IDK


Where would the " Oswald had a coke in his hands" story originated if not from Baker?.....

After Baker had told Curry that he had seen Lee  in the TSBD after the murder of JFK and told the chief that the cold blooded bastard  who had shot a brother officer in cold blood, was such a fiend that  he was calmly drinking a coke after he had just shot the president.   And Baker stated that in his sworn, written affidavit, that the fiend was "drinking a coke" when he encountered him in the 2nd floor lunchroom. 

"Walt apparently disagrees with the PM=Oswald theory and seems to think my attempt to construct a timeline for PM is analogous to some act that" produces nothing lasting and solid....    IOW.... The theory that PM=Oswald theory and seems to think my attempt to construct a timeline for PM is is not worth wasting the time spent to read the goofy theory...

I'm sorry that I have to be so brutally honest Zeon....  But I feel compelled to move the stalemate along.....I've been trying for over 50 years and my candle is burning low.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 03:23:58 AM
When Mr Oswald buys his coke, would this be at the same time all the young ladies on the second floor are having their lunch?

Possibly, though probably after they had left.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 03:26:53 AM
Mr Ford is correct. Mrs Reid stated the  bottle of coke was “full”.

So “unopened” was inaccurate.

Nevertheless, from Bakers and Trulys WC testimony  neither saw anything in
Oswalds hands such as a bottle.

Maybe they were fibbing. IDK

They were: they both saw a Coke in Mr Oswald's hand---------at the front entrance within seconds of the shooting.

Quote
If the coke that Reid saw was “full” then it’s not likely the bottle That PM was drinking  while at the front steps.

Ms Reid lied at the behest of her boss, Mr Truly
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 03:31:32 AM
And Baker stated that in his sworn, written affidavit, that the fiend was "drinking a coke" when he encountered him in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

More Cakebread nonsense 

Quote
"Walt apparently disagrees with the PM=Oswald theory and seems to think my attempt to construct a timeline for PM is analogous to some act that" produces nothing lasting and solid....    IOW.... The theory that PM=Oswald theory and seems to think my attempt to construct a timeline for PM is is not worth wasting the time spent to read the goofy theory...

I'm sorry that I have to be so brutally honest Zeon....  But I feel compelled to move the stalemate along.....I've been trying for over 50 years and my candle is burning low.

The reason your candle is burning low, Mr Cakebread, is that you cling stubbornly to a narrow pet theory of the case that you came up with years ago. Far from moving the stalemate along, you put all your effort into attacking those who are trying to do just that. Sorry to be so brutally honest.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 03:52:37 AM
This photograph of the second floor lunchroom--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b0/7e/YddPtWio_o.jpg)

was supposedly taken 11/22/63 (as stamped on back)--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/4c/Dzs4izRL_o.jpg)

But the clock on the wall shows 12:30--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/7e/87/n5BIin9t_o.jpg)

It's daylight outside, so unless Det. Studebaker was inside the lunchroom at the moment Pres. Kennedy was shot, the datestamp is a fraud.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 13, 2021, 04:07:39 AM
This photograph of the second floor lunchroom--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b0/7e/YddPtWio_o.jpg)

was supposedly taken 11/22/63 (as stamped on back)--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/4c/Dzs4izRL_o.jpg)

But the clock on the wall shows 12:30--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/7e/87/n5BIin9t_o.jpg)

It's daylight outside, so unless Det. Studebaker was inside the lunchroom at the moment Pres. Kennedy was shot, the timestamp is a fraud.

 Thumb1:

Please provide proof that the clock was running, and keeping accurate time....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 04:09:05 AM
Please provide proof that the clock was running, and keeping accurate time....

lol
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 13, 2021, 04:30:01 AM
More Cakebread nonsense 

The reason your candle is burning low, Mr Cakebread, is that you cling stubbornly to a narrow pet theory of the case that you came up with years ago. Far from moving the stalemate along, you put all your effort into attacking those who are trying to do just that. Sorry to be so brutally honest.

Actually .... I simply use the evidence that's been established for many years. ( though some of it has only surfaced in recent years)

Stubborn.... Yes...But facts are facts.... And there's no doubt that Marrion Baker encountered Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at about 12:32.   This was established on the evening of 11/22/63 when Baker, Truly, and Oswald all agreed that the event had happened.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 04:32:48 AM
Captain Fritz & co. knew very quickly that day that Mr Oswald had been at the front entrance at the time of the shooting. 'Now calm down, son, we know you didn't do the actual shooting. But we also know that you were involved. And that's why you're here.'

Later that night:

REPORTER: Did you kill the President?
MR OSWALD: No. I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall axed me that question.


From the Warren Report (p. 201):

"At this time Oswald had been arraigned only for the murder of Patrolman Tippett (sic.), but questioning by Captain Fritz and others had been substantially concerned with Oswald's connection with the assassination."

Had Mr Oswald known what DPD were telling the world---------that he was the sixth-floor shooter----------he would have screamed his alibi at the press at every opportunity.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 04:34:46 AM
Actually .... I simply use the evidence that's been established for many years. ( though some of it has only surfaced in recent years)

Stubborn.... Yes...But facts are facts.... And there's no doubt that Marrion Baker encountered Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at about 12:32.   This was established on the evening of 11/22/63 when Baker, Truly, and Oswald all agreed that the event had happened.

You're living in a fantasy world, Mr Cakebread

(https://images2.imgbox.com/7c/50/10pbZ3FK_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 13, 2021, 05:10:22 AM
Captain Fritz & co. knew very quickly that day that Mr Oswald had been at the front entrance at the time of the shooting. 'Now calm down, son, we know you didn't do the actual shooting. But we also know that you were involved. And that's why you're here.'

Later that night:

REPORTER: Did you kill the President?
MR OSWALD: No. I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall axed me that question.


From the Warren Report (p. 201):

"At this time Oswald had been arraigned only for the murder of Patrolman Tippett (sic.), but questioning by Captain Fritz and others had been substantially concerned with Oswald's connection with the assassination."

Had Mr Oswald known what DPD were telling the world---------that he was the sixth-floor shooter----------he would have screamed his alibi at the press at every opportunity.

Had Mr Oswald known what DPD were telling the world---------that he was the sixth-floor shooter----------he would have screamed his alibi at the press at every opportunity.

No, he wouldn't have..... Lee was first and foremost a patriotic American agent..... He would put his life on the line at the request of the FBI....or any American agency that he thought he was working for.....   And he would NEVER have revealed that he was a secret agent..... He trusted his handler and "knew" that the agency would pull his "fat from the fire"....On that note...lee actually alluded to believing that he was going to be pulled from the clutches of the DPD just minutes before the conspirators gunned him down.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2021, 03:36:19 PM
Had Mr Oswald known what DPD were telling the world---------that he was the sixth-floor shooter----------he would have screamed his alibi at the press at every opportunity.

No, he wouldn't have..... Lee was first and foremost a patriotic American agent..... He would put his life on the line at the request of the FBI....or any American agency that he thought he was working for.....   And he would NEVER have revealed that he was a secret agent..... He trusted his handler and "knew" that the agency would pull his "fat from the fire"....On that note...lee actually alluded to believing that he was going to be pulled from the clutches of the DPD just minutes before the conspirators gunned him down.

More uncontrolled fantasy. You came up with this garbage years ago, Mr Cakebread, and just can't bring yourself to let any of it go.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2021, 01:22:40 AM
This photograph of the second floor lunchroom--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b0/7e/YddPtWio_o.jpg)

was supposedly taken 11/22/63 (as stamped on back)--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/4c/Dzs4izRL_o.jpg)

But the clock on the wall shows 12:30--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/7e/87/n5BIin9t_o.jpg)

It's daylight outside, so unless Det. Studebaker was inside the lunchroom at the moment Pres. Kennedy was shot, the datestamp is a fraud.

 Thumb1:

The photo is CE 741...and in the book 1st Day Evidence it is shown on page 289...It was taken on 11/25/63 NOT 11/22/63 Because on 11/22/63 there would have been no reason to take a photo of the lunchroom.  The limelight wasn't cast on the lunchroom until late in the afternoon on 11/22.  The clock reads 3:05 or  1:17  (it's difficult to determine which is the long minute hand and which is the shorter hour hand.)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2021, 01:30:37 AM
The photo is CE 741...and in the book 1st Day Evidence it is shown on page 289...It was taken on 11/25/63 NOT 11/22/63 Because on 11/22/63 there would have been no reason to take a photo of the lunchroom.  The limelight wasn't cast on the lunchroom until late in the afternoon on 11/22.  The clock reads 3:05 or  1:17  (it's difficult to determine which is the long minute hand and which is the shorter hour hand.)

On the back of ONE copy we find the datestamp 11/22/63; on the back of ANOTHER 11/25/63.

NOBODY was talking about a lunchroom encounter for the first few hours after the assassination. It hadn't been invented yet.

Good to see you've dropped the broken clock silliness. The time shown is 12:30.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2021, 02:27:36 AM
On the back of ONE copy we find the datestamp 11/22/63; on the back of ANOTHER 11/25/63.

NOBODY was talking about a lunchroom encounter for the first few hours after the assassination. It hadn't been invented yet.

Good to see you've dropped the broken clock silliness. The time shown is 12:30.

I'm sure that it was 12:30 somewhere..... But it wasn't 12:30 in Dallas at the time CE 741 was taken.  As I said, I can't see which is the minute hand and which is the hour hand...but the two hands are definitely not aligned vertically, as they would be if the clock read 12:30.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2021, 06:09:39 PM
I'm sure that it was 12:30 somewhere..... But it wasn't 12:30 in Dallas at the time CE 741 was taken.  As I said, I can't see which is the minute hand and which is the hour hand...but the two hands are definitely not aligned vertically, as they would be if the clock read 12:30.

Good grief!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2021, 09:54:58 PM
Good grief!

Thank you , Charlie Brown....  I'll take that as an admission that the clock in the lunchroom does NOT indicate 12:30.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 16, 2021, 10:08:58 PM
It’s doubtful that Mrs Reid is a liar for boss Truly, as she is telling this story to fellow employees BEFORE Oswald is even noticed to be missing from TSBD by Truly, and well before a rifle on 6th floor is found and Oswald is a suspect.

If the story is “adjusted” later in Mrs Reid’s 1st FBI statement, to embellish and support boss Truly and Baker, should not Mrs Reid have simply stated seeing Oswald wearing brown shirt and seeing nothing in his hands?

Why would she complicate the Baker/Truly lunchroom encounter by having Oswald in T-shirt only and having “full” coke in hand?

Now Mrs Reid also basically stated that JFK has been shot when she met Oswald in the 2nd floor office and that he only mumbled something she could not quite understand.

So a reason for Reid to be telling this story before Oswald has become more than just an insignificant employee is that Mrs Reid thought it a bit unusual to see Oswald entering the office at that time When no one else was in the office except herself.

It therefore is neither suspicion nor some idea of embellishment to aid Mr. Truly at this point in time and simply an observation by Mrs Reid considering it seemed odd to be seeing one of the general worker boys in an otherwise empty office at the time.

And the “full” coke in hand, perhaps reinforced Mrs Reid’s perception that there was not a reason for Oswald to be in the office, since he obviously did not need change to buy a coke, nor was there anyone in the office to ask for change anyway.

So imo , Mrs Reid DID see Oswald in that office, and BECAUSE of the T-shirt and FULL coke in hand, it actually reinforces a timeline of PM meeting Baker by the front staircase 1st floor foyer, as Oswald went to the storage room to TAKE OFF his brown shirt before Oswald going up to the 2nd floor lunchroom To buy a SECOND bottle of soda.

Baker saw Oswald just before he took of his reddish brown shirt which in the type of lighting by the storage room
was perceived by Bakers memory meshing white T-shirt with loose hanging brown shirt as “a light brown jacket”.

It’s even possible that Oswald followed after Baker and Truly some 15-20 seconds later, and Oswald went thru the now open countertop in the front desk area, in order to cross the 1st floor to the rear DR. Pepper machine to purchase a 2nd Dr.Pepper bottle but found it was empty Or the power was out.

So Therefore the reason to go up to 2nd floor to buy a coke , then to cut thru 2ndfloor office, then take the front passenger elevator down to lobby, thus saving about 15 seconds of time and returning to the storage room and front entrance lobby in  time to have met the reporters Pierce Alman and or McNeil depending if both were not fibbing  a take for publicity sake like Brian Williams and the current day media often do.






Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2021, 02:07:51 AM
Something of a side-issue, but........

Ms Reid would appear to be She Who Does Not Want To Be Named.

She is the only female in CE1381 whose first name is not given. And when asked her name at the top of her WC testimony, she gives it as "Mrs. Robert A. Reid", which is how she is referred to everywhere in the official documents (with AFAIK just two exceptions: Mr Ochus Campbell's mention of 'Jeraldean Reid' & the interview report of Ms Pauline Sanders 11/24, where her name is spelled as 'Geraldine').

Kinda odd.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 17, 2021, 02:16:12 AM
Something of a side-issue, but........

Ms Reid would appear to be She Who Does Not Want To Be Named.

She is the only female in CE1381 whose first name is not given. And when asked her name at the top of her WC testimony, she gives it as "Mrs. Robert A. Reid", which is how she is referred to everywhere in the official documents (with one exception: interview report of Ms Pauline Sanders 11/24, where her name is spelled as 'Geraldine').

Kinda odd.

I suspect Mrs Reid had made up the tale about encountering the murderer just minutes after he had shot JFK. She intended nothing malicious , it was just office BS.... But the authorities needed her tale and wouldn't allow her to recant.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2021, 02:20:44 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b0/a9/PeS6UfC9_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 17, 2021, 06:16:11 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b0/a9/PeS6UfC9_o.jpg)

What's your point Mr. F?

I find it interesting that Mrs Reid was treated for depression.....  I can only speculate
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2021, 02:13:24 AM
Friends, I invite you to read this closing portion of Ms Reid's WC testimony carefully. It's truly bizarre---------------------

Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions?
Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?
Mrs. REID. No.
Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the premises?
Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.
Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice?
Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that.
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.
Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now?
Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now.
Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.
We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, Mrs. Reid.
Mrs. REID. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid.
I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness. We will reconvene at 2:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


What the hell just happened?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2021, 02:59:11 AM
Friends, I invite you to read this closing portion of Ms Reid's WC testimony carefully. It's truly bizarre---------------------

Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions?
Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?
Mrs. REID. No.
Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the premises?
Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.
Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice?
Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that.
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.
Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now?
Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now.
Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.
We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, Mrs. Reid.
Mrs. REID. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid.
I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness. We will reconvene at 2:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


What the hell just happened?

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.

What is CE 507?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 19, 2021, 03:10:50 AM
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.

What is CE 507?

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjCmzHnh/Screenshot-49.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2021, 03:20:38 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjCmzHnh/Screenshot-49.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Well what the hell does Mrs Reid have to do with the SEVENTH  floor??
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2021, 03:42:16 AM
Well what the hell does Mrs Reid have to do with the SEVENTH  floor??

Nothing-----------and that's the point.

Attorney General Carr must have a reason for asking Ms Reid whether she has had communication post-assassination with either Ms Marina Oswald or Ms Marguerite Oswald. That's interesting. But what is MOST interesting is the speed with which Mr Dulles and Mr Belin close the line of questioning down
-------------------> Mr Dulles asks a question blatantly designed to lead the discussion off topic
-------------------> Mr Belin then helps him out by a) bringing up a piece of procedural nonsense from Officer Baker's testimony, b) announcing peremptorily that the questioning of Ms Reid is done with

What is it about Attorney General Carr's line of questioning that has them so worried?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2021, 03:46:15 AM
Nothing-----------and that's the point.

Attorney General Carr must have a reason for asking Ms Reid whether she has had communication post-assassination with either Ms Marina Oswald or Ms Marguerite Oswald. That's interesting. But what is MOST interesting is the speed with which Mr Dulles and Mr Belin close the line of questioning down
-------------------> Mr Dulles asks a question blatantly designed to lead the discussion off topic
-------------------> Mr Belin then helps him out by a) bringing up a piece of procedural nonsense from Officer Baker's testimony, b) announcing peremptorily that the questioning of Ms Reid is done with

What is it about Attorney General Carr's line of questioning that has them so worried?

What is it about Attorney General Carr's line of questioning that has them so worried?

What's the answer?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 19, 2021, 03:50:55 AM
Nothing-----------and that's the point.

Attorney General Carr must have a reason for asking Ms Reid whether she has had communication post-assassination with either Ms Marina Oswald or Ms Marguerite Oswald. That's interesting. But what is MOST interesting is the speed with which Mr Dulles and Mr Belin close the line of questioning down
-------------------> Mr Dulles asks a question blatantly designed to lead the discussion off topic
-------------------> Mr Belin then helps him out by a) bringing up a piece of procedural nonsense from Officer Baker's testimony, b) announcing peremptorily that the questioning of Ms Reid is done with

What is it about Attorney General Carr's line of questioning that has them so worried?

It definitely has the smell of a tag-team effort by Belin and Dulles to shut that line of questioning down.
Carr only asks a couple of questions before they side-line him.
Why would Carr suspect that Reid somehow knew the Oswalds personally? There is nothing I can see in Reid's testimony that would even hint at that.
Time for some wild speculation  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2021, 03:57:28 AM
It definitely has the smell of a tag-team effort by Belin and Dulles to shut that line of questioning down.
Carr only asks a couple of questions before they side-line him.
Why would Carr suspect that Reid somehow knew the Oswalds personally? There is nothing I can see in Reid's testimony that would even hint at that.
Time for some wild speculation  Thumb1:

I don't think Attorney General Carr is suggesting that she knew them personally in the sense of socially or anything like that, he more indicates that he has heard that Mrs Reid has had some contact with one of them since the assassination.

No way is he asking this question without having some specific reason for doing so. And the Dulles-Belin response is a real giveaway of---------------well, something...........?

Very, very odd!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2021, 04:05:27 AM
I don't think Attorney General Carr is suggesting that she knew them personally in the sense of socially or anything like that, he more indicates that he has heard that Mrs Reid has had some contact with one of them since the assassination.

No way is he asking this question without having some specific reason for doing so. And the Dulles-Belin response is a real giveaway of---------------well, something...........?

Very, very odd!

I've read enough about Marguerite Oswald to know that if she had heard that Mrs Reid had encountered her son Lee just seconds after the shooting she would have gone to talk to Mrs Reid.  I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut, that Mamma Oswald sought out Mrs Reid.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2021, 04:19:05 AM
I've read enough about Marguerite Oswald to know that if she had heard that Mrs Reid had encountered her son Lee just seconds after the shooting she would have gone to talk to Mrs Reid.  I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut, that Mamma Oswald sought out Mrs Reid.....

So Ms Reid is lying here?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2021, 04:33:19 AM
So Ms Reid is lying here?

Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.

Mrs Reid clearly knew that Mamma O had been to the TSBD....  I'd bet that Mamma went right to the second floor to find Mrs Reid....  Perhaps Mrs Reid wasn't there at the time...Who knows???   But Mrs R may have been there and avoided Mamma...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 20, 2021, 02:59:33 AM
Could there have been some preexisting animosity between Oswald and Mrs Reid that would be motive for Mrs Reid to conjure up a false story complete with added details of T-shirt and full coke, and entering rear door , walking slowly, mumbling.

IDK what Mrs Reid’s personal views were related to segregation and or rules of separation of workers and administration.

There is some other parts of her WC testimony where she relates looking up at the TSBD bldg after hearing 3 shots fired and seeing the “colored boys” of which 3 , she named  James Jarman as one she recognized.

So this might indicate that Mrs Reid has a particular bias that would might put her and Oswald at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

Especially even more pronounced because Oswald is

1. A self proclaimed Marxist
2. A USMC veteran who defected to To a communist country
3. Oswald routinely eats with those “colored boys”
4. Oswald often uses the 2nd floor lunchroom to actually eat his lunch , which would be breaking the rule Mrs Teid probably prefers of separate lunch rooms for 2nd floor Admin and worker 1st floor



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 20, 2021, 10:30:48 PM
Could there have been some preexisting animosity between Oswald and Mrs Reid that would be motive for Mrs Reid to conjure up a false story complete with added details of T-shirt and full coke, and entering rear door , walking slowly, mumbling.

IDK what Mrs Reid’s personal views were related to segregation and or rules of separation of workers and administration.

There is some other parts of her WC testimony where she relates looking up at the TSBD bldg after hearing 3 shots fired and seeing the “colored boys” of which 3 , she named  James Jarman as one she recognized.

So this might indicate that Mrs Reid has a particular bias that would might put her and Oswald at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

Especially even more pronounced because Oswald is

1. A self proclaimed Marxist
2. A USMC veteran who defected to To a communist country
3. Oswald routinely eats with those “colored boys”
4. Oswald often uses the 2nd floor lunchroom to actually eat his lunch , which would be breaking the rule Mrs Teid probably prefers of separate lunch rooms for 2nd floor Admin and worker 1st floor

Could there have been some preexisting animosity between Oswald and Mrs Reid that would be motive for Mrs Reid to conjure up a false story complete with added details of T-shirt and full coke, and entering rear door , walking slowly, mumbling.

Interesting thought  Zeon.....I doubt that Lee Oswald harbored any disllke for Mrs Reid....but she could easily have disliked him, ( just as many members of this forum hate him)   because she believed the facade he had created was real. 

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 22, 2021, 12:15:30 AM
You know, this bottle may be some other kind of drink than either a coke or a Dr.pepper because there does not appear to be any solid bar horizontally devising the white label as in Dr.Pepper 1963 bottles nor is it the coke bottle with only the minimal white cursive lettering of the
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 22, 2021, 12:21:02 AM
...a typical 1963 coke bottle

So now I’m wondering if this is so kind of speciality drink and that during the time of 12:01-12:14, that Oswald has “gone out”as possibly Eddie Piper has heard, in order to buy this speciality type of drink.

This bottle probably has Oswalds (PM)prints on it
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 22, 2021, 02:48:53 AM
Nevertheless, from Bakers and Trulys WC testimony  neither saw anything in
Oswalds hands such as a bottle.

Well, as least after Baker scratched that part out of this affidavit.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aBTInu_OfUU/WV3x3uWqBAI/AAAAAAABMRw/_g6vClvxpJQpknWKuttxfSDWn9kT8geMQCLcBGAs/s1600/Marrion-Baker-9-23-64-Affidavit.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2021, 03:06:17 AM
Well, as least after Baker scratched that part out of this affidavit.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aBTInu_OfUU/WV3x3uWqBAI/AAAAAAABMRw/_g6vClvxpJQpknWKuttxfSDWn9kT8geMQCLcBGAs/s1600/Marrion-Baker-9-23-64-Affidavit.png)

One has to wonder WHY Baker scratched out the "drinking a coke" entry.....???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 28, 2021, 10:17:15 AM


Because Mrs Reid has made a very early FBI statement of having seen Oswald in the 2nd floor office very soon AFTER shots fired, then it became imperative to establish a timeline to make sure Baker was seeing Oswald BEFORE Mrs Reid, otherwise there might be a potential plausible alibi for Oswald .

there was probably  effort made to avoid contradictions between Baker and Reid.

If Oswald drank some portion of the coke during Bakers encounter, then it might be questioned why Reid would have seen the bottle as full.

Plus, the theory is that Oswald has just run down 4 flights staircases in haste to escape TSBD, so drinking a coke already in hand just 5  secs after “diverting just in time to avoid running into Baker and Truly “ might raise a question.

So easy fix: strike out “drinking a coke”

What about the “light brown jacket” which was definitely in contrast to Reid seeing Oswald in only a T-shirt?

Baker could “fix” his early light brown jacket description as who would believe he could mistake a  white T-shirt as light brown jacket?

The best fix they could do was to have Baker in WC testimony explain how he mistook the Oswald long sleeve brown shirt as a jacket.

They left the issue of T-shirt Oswald to the speculation for the public hopingfor the “Oswald must have taken off his brown shirt just after Baker left the lunchroom”

And The Story becomes Oswald must bought a coke AFTER  now that Baker, and Truly 2 now, In WC statement disavow seeing a coke.

So the Mrs Reid sort has been preserved as best they could do and Belin has done his stopwatch timeline to fix the story and everyone is satisfied now.

Except about 75% of the public which Hoover and LBJ were trying to convince that there was no conspiracy.







Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 28, 2021, 12:48:18 PM
One has to wonder WHY Baker scratched out the "drinking a coke" entry.....???

That's an easy one. Every second Oswald needed to work the machine and get the Coke out takes time away from the time he was supposed to have used to come down from the 6th floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2021, 03:40:11 PM
One has to wonder WHY Baker scratched out the "drinking a coke" entry.....???

But left the entry clearly readable.....   Hmmmmm....Me thinks there was a slimy lawyer at his elbow.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2021, 10:57:26 PM
That's an easy one. Every second Oswald needed to work the machine and get the Coke out takes time away from the time he was supposed to have used to come down from the 6th floor.

That's the obvious answer.....So the entire report that Baker had delivered on the afternoon of 11/22/63 should have been deleted.  But that's NOT what the slick lawyers wanted....  The wanted Baker's affidavit written a way that they could expunge the "drinking a coke" episode but still leave that entry readable.   

They could easily have re-written the entire affidavit and simply left out the "drinking a Coke" .... But that is NOT what they wanted....   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 03, 2021, 08:51:17 PM
Gentlemen,

Some encouraging reading, especially the spotlight focus upon the three (3) "witnesses" hedging their bets while trying to frame an innocent individual without fear of perjury upon further review by a much closer examination of their statements.

Of course, that lingering fear was forever lifted off Baker, Truly & Reid after the wrongly accused was dispatched to a status of permanent silenced. Thus the horse manure we are still dissecting today (a phantom 2nd floor encounter between Mr. Baker and Truly-nothing truly about him; Mrs. Reid's phony encounter of the same; and, of course, omitting the actual encounter of the wrongly accused on the first floor near the storage room).

Anyone who has any lingering doubts that Mrs. Reid isn't lying, please read Geneva Hines WC testimony, where she leaves little doubt that Mrs. Reid did not immediately return to the 2nd floor as she claimed...

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
Miss HINE. No, sir
396


In fact, Mrs. Hine observes Mrs. Reid come in with a group of five to six others.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.


Now, it gets even more interesting, because the only way Mrs. Reid could have seen the wrongly accused is Mrs. Hine was in position to vouch for it, but she doesn't ---->

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.


An honest to goodness answer. The wrongly accused wasn't anywhere near that office, let alone in that office on the 2nd floor in spite of Baker, Truly & Mrs. Reid's hastily contrived horse manure to frame an innocent man. 

A genuine closer examination into Roy Truly's actual activities that afternoon would further shed some light to dispel the prevailing five decades old myth about a lone gunman and a satchel of magic bullets (please excuse the eye-roll).
 
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.


Cat got your tongue, Mr. Truly?! Cannot answer or won't answer?! Pleading the 5th, Mr. Truly?!

*Why was Roy Truly in the sniper's nest before the spent shells were found?

*Did Jack Dougherty encounter Roy Truly on the 6th floor prior to the motorcade's arrival?

*Why does Roy Truly want the whole world to think/believe that Jack Dougherty is a bit feeble minded? Did Jack Dougherty inadvertently come upon his boss planting a rifle and/or spent shell casings?










Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 03, 2021, 09:25:13 PM
Lest we forget, only one single person claims he saw Roy Truly near the backstairs in the same WC timing sequence as the phony dash up the backstairs to embellish a phantom encounter with the wrongly accused. Only one single person.

The problem here is that that lone single person does not put Baker w/Roy Truly during that timing sequence ---->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
Mr. PIPER. I don’t know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was,
but another fellow was with him.
Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, “Where is the elevator?” And I said, “I
don’t know, sir, Mr. Truly.”
They taken off and went on up the stairway and that’s all I know about
that.


IF Baker was with Roy Truly he would have not been mistaken for a mere policeman instead of a unmistakable motorcycle policeman in white helmet with long black boots, nor mistaken as an agent with the FBI or "another fellow". I will only concede that at some point that yes, Baker & Truly were together at some point, but certainly not in the timing sequence of the horse manure hastily contrived to invent a phantom encounter w/the wrongly accused.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 03, 2021, 09:30:56 PM
Last thought today, best wishes to all who may pass this way to remain well, safe & healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we are facing...


The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
Gentlemen,

Some encouraging reading, especially the spotlight focus upon the three (3) "witnesses" hedging their bets while trying to frame an innocent individual without fear of perjury upon further review by a much closer examination of their statements.

Of course, that lingering fear was forever lifted off Baker, Truly & Reid after the wrongly accused was dispatched to a status of permanent silenced. Thus the horse manure we are still dissecting today (a phantom 2nd floor encounter between Mr. Baker and Truly-nothing truly about him; Mrs. Reid's phony encounter of the same; and, of course, omitting the actual encounter of the wrongly accused on the first floor near the storage room).

Anyone who has any lingering doubts that Mrs. Reid isn't lying, please read Geneva Hines WC testimony, where she leaves little doubt that Mrs. Reid did not immediately return to the 2nd floor as she claimed...

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
Miss HINE. No, sir
396


In fact, Mrs. Hine observes Mrs. Reid come in with a group of five to six others.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.


Now, it gets even more interesting, because the only way Mrs. Reid could have seen the wrongly accused is Mrs. Hine was in position to vouch for it, but she doesn't ---->

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.


An honest to goodness answer. The wrongly accused wasn't anywhere near that office, let alone in that office on the 2nd floor in spite of Baker, Truly & Mrs. Reid's hastily contrived horse manure to frame an innocent man. 

A genuine closer examination into Roy Truly's actual activities that afternoon would further shed some light to dispel the prevailing five decades old myth about a lone gunman and a satchel of magic bullets (please excuse the eye-roll).
 
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.


Cat got your tongue, Mr. Truly?! Cannot answer or won't answer?! Pleading the 5th, Mr. Truly?!

*Why was Roy Truly in the sniper's nest before the spent shells were found?

*Given his early return to work upon the upper floors, Did Jack Dougherty encounter Roy Truly on the 6th floor prior to the motorcades arrival?

*Why does Roy Truly want the whole world to think/believe that Jack Dougherty is a bit feeble minded? Did Jack Dougherty inadvertently come upon his boss planting a rifle and/or spent shell casings?

Anyone who has any lingering doubts that Mrs. Reid isn't lying, please read Geneva Hines WC testimony, where she leaves little doubt that Mrs. Reid did not immediately return to the 2nd floor as she claimed...

I'm not one to sugar coat a fact.....But Don't you think that using the term "lying" is a bit strong when applied to Mrs Reid's "office gossip".....   I sincerely doubt that Mrs Reid was being malicious, when she claimed that the killer had walked right past her just minutes after the murder.   She was merely trying to impress her fellow workers......  But once the conspirators realized that they could use her, they wouldn't let her recant.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 03, 2021, 09:44:22 PM
Anyone who has any lingering doubts that Mrs. Reid isn't lying, please read Geneva Hines WC testimony, where she leaves little doubt that Mrs. Reid did not immediately return to the 2nd floor as she claimed...

I'm not one to sugar coat a fact.....But Don't you think that using the term "lying" is a bit strong when applied to Mrs Reid's "office gossip".....   I sincerely doubt that Mrs Reid was being malicious, when she claimed that the killer had walked right past her just minutes after the murder.   She was merely trying to impress her fellow workers......  But once the conspirators realized that they could use her, they wouldn't let her recant.

Okay, Mr. Cakebread, fair enough. I retract my strong sentiments that she outright lied, and consider perhaps she simply wished to place herself into the major story of the day. No harm, no foul...guess it's a bit of human nature.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 03, 2021, 09:55:04 PM
The wrongly accused was framed.

No sniper actually waiting in ambush on the 6th floor facing forward would have known Mr. Jarman (Junior) and his companion, Norman, reentered the building from the rear. The wrongly accused witnessed their entrance in the rear of the building way down on the first floor because he was not in the front of the building up on the 6th floor.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 03, 2021, 11:09:16 PM
Gentlemen,

Some encouraging reading, especially the spotlight focus upon the three (3) "witnesses" hedging their bets while trying to frame an innocent individual without fear of perjury upon further review by a much closer examination of their statements.

Of course, that lingering fear was forever lifted off Baker, Truly & Reid after the wrongly accused was dispatched to a status of permanent silenced. Thus the horse manure we are still dissecting today (a phantom 2nd floor encounter between Mr. Baker and Truly-nothing truly about him; Mrs. Reid's phony encounter of the same; and, of course, omitting the actual encounter of the wrongly accused on the first floor near the storage room).

Anyone who has any lingering doubts that Mrs. Reid isn't lying, please read Geneva Hines WC testimony, where she leaves little doubt that Mrs. Reid did not immediately return to the 2nd floor as she claimed...

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
Miss HINE. No, sir
396


In fact, Mrs. Hine observes Mrs. Reid come in with a group of five to six others.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.


Now, it gets even more interesting, because the only way Mrs. Reid could have seen the wrongly accused is Mrs. Hine was in position to vouch for it, but she doesn't ---->

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.


An honest to goodness answer. The wrongly accused wasn't anywhere near that office, let alone in that office on the 2nd floor in spite of Baker, Truly & Mrs. Reid's hastily contrived horse manure to frame an innocent man. 

"Anyone who has any lingering doubts that Mrs. Reid isn't lying, please read Geneva Hines WC testimony,"

You've left out something important - to read Hine's testimony with an unbiased, impartial eye rather than the frothing prejudice you are clearly displaying.
A fanatical mentality can only see that which supports it's own prejudice.
Here's a slightly more lucid look at Hine's testimony and, just for the record, I'd like to make it known that I don't believe Oswald took the shots.

Geneva Hine is alone in her office as the motorcade passes by. She watches what she can from an east window from which she can see part of Elm Street and up Houston Street. She actually sees JFK as the limo passes by. Then three shots ring out.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?
Miss HINE. Three.
Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

She continues to look out of the east window -  "I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk."

She decides to see what's going on so she leaves her office.
While this is happening, Jeraldean Reid, according to her testimony, is on her way up to the second floor office Hine has just vacated. Hine tries one door, knocking on and calling out but to no avail. She then walks down the short corridor to Southwestern Publishing Co:

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.
Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was which company?
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

While Hine is trying to get the attention of the girl talking in the office, Reid and Oswald have their interaction. Hine then walks "through the back hall" (that is, the corridor leading towards the lunchroom), which is why she didn't see Oswald leaving. She enters her office "through the back door" and goes to her desk. She is sure there is no-one in the office when she returns from the corridor. She is instantly swamped with phone calls:

Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.
Mr. BALL. Did they come in rapidly?
Miss HINE They did come in rapidly.

Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.

Hine is aware of a group of people come in but she doesn't have a clue whether Reid is with them:

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.

Hine doesn't recognise Reid coming in with this group but she is aware Reid being there as they all talk about "how terrible it was".
The question is - if Reid encountered Oswald as she says, why isn't she in the office when Hine returns?

Read Reid's testimony with an impartial eye ( :D fat chance) and you'll understand why Reid wasn't in the room when Hine returned.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 04, 2021, 12:12:19 AM
Lest we forget, only one single person claims he saw Roy Truly near the backstairs in the same WC timing sequence as the phony dash up the backstairs to embellish a phantom encounter with the wrongly accused. Only one single person.

The problem here is that that lone single person does not put Baker w/Roy Truly during that timing sequence ---->

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?
Mr. PIPER. I don’t know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was,
but another fellow was with him.
Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, “Where is the elevator?” And I said, “I
don’t know, sir, Mr. Truly.”
They taken off and went on up the stairway and that’s all I know about
that.


IF Baker was with Roy Truly he would have not been mistaken for a mere policeman instead of a unmistakable motorcycle policeman in white helmet with long black boots, nor mistaken as an agent with the FBI or "another fellow". I will only concede that at some point that yes, Baker & Truly were together at some point, but certainly not in the timing sequence of the horse manure hastily contrived to invent a phantom encounter w/the wrongly accused.


Eddie Piper was a product of the segregated South....    He would never talk back to a white man in authority.

If Eddie thought that the White man wanted him to say the man with Mr Truly looked like Elmer Fudd  that's what Eddie Piper would have said.
 
I believe that Piper was rehearsed before his WC testimony, and he was referring to the "re-enactment " of Baker and Truly ....and Baker was in civilian clothes for the re-enactment ( not his motorcycle uniform) thus Eddie didn't recognize Baker as being a Dallas cop.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 04, 2021, 12:40:54 AM
Okay, Mr. Cakebread, fair enough. I retract my strong sentiments that she outright lied, and consider perhaps she simply wished to place herself into the major story of the day. No harm, no foul...guess it's a bit of human nature.

Thank You, Mr Ford...That's exactly what I believe happened..... "she simply wished to place herself into the major story of the day. No harm, no foul...guess it's a bit of human nature".

And, I would add I suspect that Mrs Reid might have been another victim of the tragic event.....In that I believe that she had a guilty conscious that nagged at her and caused her depression....Just as it says on her death certificate...


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 04, 2021, 01:08:21 AM
The wrongly accused was framed.

No sniper actually waiting in ambush on the 6th floor facing forward would have known Mr. Jarman (Junior) and his companion, Norman, reentered the building from the rear. The wrongly accused witnessed their entrance in the rear of the building way down on the first floor because he was not in the front of the building up on the 6th floor.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

Correct, Succinct, and exactly right.....   It's sooooo simple and easy to see, so why the hell do some folks continue to present utter nonsense theories, that attempt to paint Lee Oswald as a cold blooded killer maniac, in spite of the truncated videos in which he presented himself as a completely lucid  and intelligent ( if angry ) patsy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 12:27:06 AM

Because Mrs Reid has made a very early FBI statement of having seen Oswald in the 2nd floor office very soon AFTER shots fired,

What very early FBI statement?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 12:30:16 AM
Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.


So.................how could Mrs Reid have been telling co-workers so soon after the assassination all about having seen 'Oswald'?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 12:39:46 AM
Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.


So.................how could Mrs Reid have been telling co-workers so soon after the assassination all about having seen 'Oswald'?

By 2:00pm  Lee Oswald's name had been broadcast, In the TSBD....  Truly went to Captain Fritz who was looking at the rifle that had been discovered on the sixth floor( 1:22) and reported that Lee Oswald was missing....  Truly had been looking for Lee Oswald for sometime prior to reporting to Captain Fritz.    Without a doubt Mrs Reid would have heard .....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 12:44:49 AM
By 2:00pm  Lee Oswald's name had been broadcast .....

She says she didn't learn his name until after being shown his picture. Who showed her his picture?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 01:05:14 AM
She says she didn't learn his name until after being shown his picture. Who showed her his picture?

Mrs. REIIL No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something.
I mean they just don’t come in there and wander around. It is some business
for them.
Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch
but I didn’t even know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. REILL No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn’t know his
name until they told us who it was.
Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald
on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BJCLIN. You mean the picture with the name Dee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. Rum. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. Rw. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind

This testimony is rubbish.....  Mrs Reid's coworkers or Roy Truly would have described lee to her when Truly was looking for Lee.

She wouldn't have needed to see a picture to know .....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 01:12:26 AM
Mrs. REIIL No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something.
I mean they just don’t come in there and wander around. It is some business
for them.
Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch
but I didn’t even know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. REILL No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn’t know his
name until they told us who it was.
Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald
on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BJCLIN. You mean the picture with the name Dee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. Rum. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. Rw. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind

This testimony is rubbish.....  Mrs Reid's coworkers or Roy Truly would have described lee to her when Truly was looking for Lee.

She wouldn't have needed to see a picture to know .....

You're just making that up, Mr Cakebread.

Fact is, Mrs Reid's own testimony rules out her having told her co-workers in the office so soon after the assassination about having seen 'Oswald'.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 02:13:23 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/87/8f/lStJS04J_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/98/7d/9BFbKhxt_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 03:20:17 AM
You're just making that up, Mr Cakebread.

Fact is, Mrs Reid's own testimony rules out her having told her co-workers in the office so soon after the assassination about having seen 'Oswald'.

No "her" testimony does not rule out that she told her co-workers that the "killer" had walked right by her just minutes after the murder......

I'd like to endorse your idea, but the truth is we don't know WHEN Mrs Reid first became familiar with Lee Oswald, ( learned his name) Lee had been employed at he TSBD for over a month, and  Mrs Reid said that Lee had came to her desk to get change for the Coke machine...  It would be unusual if she hadn't enquired about the man who was coming to her desk and asking for change.

The bottom line....I don't think we can hang our hat on Mrs Reid's Warren Commission testimony.   

Let's see what she said in her affidavit..... 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 05, 2021, 06:25:52 AM
It was the DPD affidavit on Nov 23/63 that is the “early “ statement by Reid. This one has no detail of what hand the coke was in or if it was full or not.

It’s the FBI report dated Nov 26/63 that has added that the coke was in the right hand and the coke was “full”

Mr.Ford  can paste those 2 documents If possible.

Why the addition of  specifying the right hand held the coke and it was full?

What’s all the excitement about? Is not a question that Oswald would have asked Mrs Reid If Oswald is PM, as PM remains outside for the duration of all 3 shots fired as per Couch/Darnell films with Baker running to TSBD and PM still visible at front entrance ( with white blob object still in hand)

So IDK what to make of some office woman recently in video referring to remembering  50 years later that Mrs Reid said as much.

it’s strange imo that Geneva Hine DOES know Oswald by name yet Mrs Reid the Supervisor of this floor office does Not?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 05, 2021, 10:41:41 AM
You're just making that up, Mr Cakebread.

Fact is, Mrs Reid's own testimony rules out her having told her co-workers in the office so soon after the assassination about having seen 'Oswald'.

That Reid was telling her co-workers about her encounter with Oswald is confirmed by Karen Westbrook Scranton in her Oral History interview.
She doesn't need to know his name - "I saw that scrawny loser...etc."
But why is she talking about such an innocuous event. The president has been shot and she's talking about passing some creep holding a coke. Why?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
No "her" testimony does not rule out that she told her co-workers that the "killer" had walked right by her just minutes after the murder......

Her testimony rules out that she told her co-workers that 'Oswald' had walked right by her.

Quote
I'd like to endorse your idea, but the truth is we don't know WHEN Mrs Reid first became familiar with Lee Oswald, ( learned his name) Lee had been employed at he TSBD for over a month, and  Mrs Reid said that Lee had came to her desk to get change for the Coke machine...  It would be unusual if she hadn't enquired about the man who was coming to her desk and asking for change.

Where does Mrs Reid say he came to her desk for change?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:41:48 AM
It was the DPD affidavit on Nov 23/63 that is the “early “ statement by Reid.

Correct!  Thumb1:

Had Mrs Reid been telling everyone about having seen "Oswald" just after the shooting, she would not have been treated like just another office worker and let home 2pm-2:30pm. The fact that this supposedly key witness isn't brought down to City Hall to give an affidavit until the next day speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 05, 2021, 11:51:01 AM
Correct!  Thumb1:

Had Mrs Reid been telling everyone about having seen "Oswald" just after the shooting, she would not have been treated like just another office worker and let home 2pm-2:30pm. The fact that this supposedly key witness isn't brought down to City Hall to give an affidavit until the next day speaks for itself.

Incorrect  :-[

Key witnesses such as Geneva Hine, Harold Norman and Junior Jarman weren't taken down to City Hall that day.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:52:02 AM
That Reid was telling her co-workers about her encounter with Oswald is confirmed by Karen Westbrook Scranton in her Oral History interview.
She doesn't need to know his name - "I saw that scrawny loser...etc."

Fanciful

Quote
But why is she talking about such an innocuous event. The president has been shot and she's talking about passing some creep holding a coke. Why?

It's like the question, 'Why does Officer Baker, rushing to get to the top of the building, take a time-wasting detour off the second floor landing to check out a guy who happens to be on the far side of a door but then later amazingly turns out to have been Mr Prime Suspect?'

And it has the same answer: It never happened. Mr Truly put Mrs Reid up to it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:59:07 AM
Incorrect  :-[

Key witnesses such as Geneva Hine, Harold Norman and Junior Jarman weren't taken down to City Hall that day.

Ms Hine, Mr Norman and Mr Jarman have one thing in common: they make no claim of having seen Evil Mr Oswald near the time of the motorcade.

And I suggest you read the affidavit Mr Jarman does give the following day!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 05, 2021, 12:32:45 PM
Fanciful

Go and check out the Scranton interview.
There's nothing 'fanciful' about it.
You would just like to wish it away.

Quote
It's like the question, 'Why does Officer Baker, rushing to get to the top of the building, take a time-wasting detour off the second floor landing to check out a guy who happens to be on the far side of a door but then later amazingly turns out to have been Mr Prime Suspect?'

It's not even remotely similar.
The reason Reid is talking about such a seemingly innocent event is because it has become common knowledge amongst those trapped inside the TSBD that Oswald is being sought after.
Why else mention it?

Quote
And it has the same answer: It never happened. Mr Truly put Mrs Reid up to it.

You don't have one scrap of evidence for this assertion.
It's your own invented opinion.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 05, 2021, 12:36:15 PM
Ms Hine, Mr Norman and Mr Jarman have one thing in common: they make no claim of having seen Evil Mr Oswald near the time of the motorcade.

And I suggest you read the affidavit Mr Jarman does give the following day!

Carolyn Arnold claims to have seen Patsy Oswald near the time of the motorcade.
She isn't hauled in either.
What's your point?
Reid was called in the next day to give a statement, one of the few office workers to do so.
Her claim must have been considered important.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 05:15:10 PM

The reason Reid is talking about such a seemingly innocent event is because it has become common knowledge amongst those trapped inside the TSBD that Oswald is being sought after.

If it has become common knowledge that Mr Oswald is being sought after, how come Mrs Reid doesn't yet know his name---------and won't do so until she later sees his picture and hears his name mentioned?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 05:16:59 PM
Carolyn Arnold claims to have seen Patsy Oswald near the time of the motorcade.
She isn't hauled in either.

Yes, because what she has to say is disastrous to the massive official effort to put Mr Oswald up on six
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 05:58:34 PM
Fanciful

It's like the question, 'Why does Officer Baker, rushing to get to the top of the building, take a time-wasting detour off the second floor landing to check out a guy who happens to be on the far side of a door but then later amazingly turns out to have been Mr Prime Suspect?'

And it has the same answer: It never happened. Mr Truly put Mrs Reid up to it.

It's like the question, 'Why does Officer Baker, rushing to get to the top of the building, take a time-wasting detour off the second floor landing to check out a guy who happens to be on the far side of a door but then later amazingly turns out to have been Mr Prime Suspect?'

Why did Baker want to see what was going on behind that door?     Because he was a cop, and his suspicions were alert....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 06:43:42 PM
Go and check out the Scranton interview.
There's nothing 'fanciful' about it.
You would just like to wish it away.

It's not even remotely similar.
The reason Reid is talking about such a seemingly innocent event is because it has become common knowledge amongst those trapped inside the TSBD that Oswald is being sought after.
Why else mention it?

You don't have one scrap of evidence for this assertion.
It's your own invented opinion.

The reason Reid is talking about such a seemingly innocent event is because it has become common knowledge amongst those trapped inside the TSBD that Oswald is being sought after.

That's the conclusion i've reached also .....  But To be candid...I don't know when Mrs Reid FIRST mentioned that she had encountered Lee Oswald after the shots were fired.     But I'd bet that she did in fact know his name prior to Friday 11/22/63  because it was no secret that he had lived in Russia , and he spoke Russian, and was married to a Russian woman.  It would be very unlikely that Mrs Reid wouldn't have known those facts.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 05, 2021, 07:51:36 PM
Gentlemen,

First, certainly appreciate Mr. O'meara's sentiments that he does not believe the wrongly accused fired any shots that fateful afternoon. Hear! hear!

Now, getting back to whether or not Mrs. Hine's decision to move away from her desk momentarily gave Mrs. Reid an opportunity to engage the wrongly accused before Mrs. Hine ventured back to field all those incoming phone calls, let's now take Mr. Williams' following statement into account ----->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338166/m1/1/

For Mrs. Reid to have returned inside the building immediately as she claims, here are a couple of fair questions:

*Why didn't Mr. Williams (Otis) see her as he returned to his office?

Moreover...

*Why didn't Mr. Williams see Mrs. Reid when he returned to the stairwell for a 2nd time to now head up to the 4th floor to get a better view of the assassination aftermath?

There's no question that Mrs. Reid saw the wrongly accused, she just moved the instance up a flight of stairs far removed from the small storage room on the first floor.

 "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside
watching the parade. We saw him [Oswald] in a small storage room on
the ground floor.
"
-- Texas School Book Depository VP Ochus V. Campbell, courtesy of the New York Herald

Lest we forget, Mrs. Hine's names Mrs. Reid as a member of the group she observed accompanied by Mr. Campbell's returning party upstairs ---->

Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Jlolina (spelling). Miss Martha Reid, Mrs.
Reid
, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that’s all I recall, sir.


Again, the challenge here for Mrs. Reid's phantom encounter w/the wrongly accused is to explain away how she didn't cross paths with Mr. Williams (not once, but twice).






Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 05, 2021, 08:09:39 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/87/8f/lStJS04J_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/98/7d/9BFbKhxt_o.jpg)

What's on your mind, Mr. Frazier?

Trying your best to discreetly come clean sir?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 08:25:07 PM
Gentlemen,

First, certainly appreciate Mr. O'meara's sentiments that he does not believe the wrongly accused fired any shots that fateful afternoon. Hear! hear!

Now, getting back to whether or not Mrs. Hine's decision to move away from her desk momentarily gave Mrs. Reid an opportunity to engage the wrongly accused before Mrs. Hine ventured back to field all those incoming phone calls, let's now take Mr. Williams' following statement into account ----->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338166/m1/1/

For Mrs. Reid to have returned inside the building immediately as she claims, here are a couple of fair questions:

*Why didn't Mr. Williams (Otis) see her as he returned to his office?

Moreover...

*Why didn't Mr. Williams see Mrs. Reid when he returned to the stairwell for a 2nd time to now head up to the 4th floor to get a better view of the assassination aftermath?

There's no question that Mrs. Reid saw the wrongly accused, she just moved the instance up a flight of stairs far removed from the small storage room on the first floor.

 "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside
watching the parade. We saw him [Oswald] in a small storage room on
the ground floor.
"
-- Texas School Book Depository VP Ochus V. Campbell, courtesy of the New York Herald

Lest we forget, Mrs. Hine's names Mrs. Reid as a member of the group she observed accompanied by Mr. Campbell's returning party upstairs ---->

Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Jlolina (spelling). Miss Martha Reid, Mrs.
Reid
, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that’s all I recall, sir.


Again, the challenge here for Mrs. Reid's phantom encounter w/the wrongly accused is to explain away how she didn't cross paths with Mr. Williams (not once, but twice).


There's no question that Mrs. Reid saw the wrongly accused, she just moved the instance up a flight of stairs far removed from the small storage room on the first floor.

I disagree.....I seriously doubt that Mrs Reid encountered Lee Oswald anywhere after the shots were fired.   I know that Lee told the interrogators that he returned to the first floor lunchroom, to finish his lunch after he purchased a Coke from the 2nd floor vending machine.  And I seriously doubt that he took a detour through the office area ....Though not specifically stated  Lee's  statement to the interrogators,  implies that he went directly to the first floor lunchroom before going outside.....  Depending on how much time Lee spent in the 1st floor lunchroom after he brought his coke down to eat with his lunch....It's entirely possible that Mrs Reid could have encountered Lee at the front door of the TSBD.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 05, 2021, 08:42:51 PM

There's no question that Mrs. Reid saw the wrongly accused, she just moved the instance up a flight of stairs far removed from the small storage room on the first floor.

I disagree.....I seriously doubt that Mrs Reid encountered Lee Oswald anywhere after the shots were fired.   I know that Lee told the interrogators that he returned to the first floor lunchroom, to finish his lunch after he purchased a Coke from the 2nd floor vending machine.  And I seriously doubt that he took a detour through the office area ....Though not specifically stated  Lee's  statement to the interrogators,  implies that he went directly to the first floor lunchroom before going outside.....  Depending on how much time Lee spent in the 1st floor lunchroom after he brought his coke down to eat with his lunch....It's entirely possible that Mrs Reid could have encountered Lee at the front door of the TSBD.

Okay, Mr. Cakebread, fair enough. Perhaps Mr. Campbell's specific word usage describing "we" saw him in a first floor storage room meant he was only referencing other members in his party's return inside the building besides Mrs. Reid.

I'm all for your option, quote, It's entirely possible that Mrs Reid could have encountered Lee at the front door of the TSBD. Anything that puts the wrongly accused anywhere near where he said he was is okay by me.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 05, 2021, 08:53:30 PM
Okay, Mr. Cakebread, fair enough. Perhaps Mr. Campbell's specific word usage describing "we" saw him in a first floor storage room meant he was only referencing other members in his party's return inside the building besides Mrs. Reid.

I'm all for your option, quote, It's entirely possible that Mrs Reid could have encountered Lee at the front door of the TSBD. Anything that puts the wrongly accused anywhere near where he said he was is okay by me.

It's entirely possible that Lee's interest was piqued by the sudden appearance  of Baker and Truly and he wanted to get outside to see what the hell was happening..... He could have dashed to the Domino room and gulped the rest of his sandwich and then headed for the door with the coke in his hand...  And that could be where Mrs Reid saw him.   I don't believe that Mrs Reid saw him in the office area...  and she might have confessed to that bit of BS if the bastards on LBJ's cover up committee hadn't forced her to stick to the gossip tale she had started.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 05, 2021, 08:58:38 PM
Last thought today gentlemen as I wish all who may pass this way best wishes to remain well, safe & healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we all face.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into-well, talked to some of the officers
around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had
come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was
mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what
had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time
the President’s motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in
the building.
The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we
went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being
the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor.
And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn’t see
anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That’s right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front
door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the
elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELXN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYEB. Well, I don’t know who pushed it, but we went up to the top
floor.
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top


Interesting how quickly Mr. Belin steers the subject matter far and away from the mystery man who comes to Inspector Sawyer's aid. Also interesting that this man just so happens to be right by the small storage room, the passenger elevator and stairwell there. Given the timing sequence (12:34PM) of Inspector Sawyer's statement, it's clear there is a good reason to avoid identifying this mystery man for the record. After all, according to a hastily contrived script, wasn't he suppose to be on a phantom bus ride, cab ride, etc. to be elsewhere for a phantom encounter at 10th & Patton across town?

When one reviews every other male TSBD employee statements/activities/whereabouts around this specific timeline no one else can account for being in this specific position near those stairs and the passenger elevator, which just so happens, you guessed it, right there in close proximity of the small first floor storage room. 

The wrongly accused was framed. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 05, 2021, 09:07:23 PM
It's entirely possible that Lee's interest was piqued by the sudden appearance  of Baker and Truly and he wanted to get outside to see what the hell was happening..... He could have dashed to the Domino room and gulped the rest of his sandwich and then headed for the door with the coke in his hand...  And that could be where Mrs Reid saw him.   I don't believe that Mrs Reid saw him in the office area...  and she might have confessed to that bit of BS if the bastards on LBJ's cover up committee hadn't forced her to stick to the gossip tale she had started.

A reasonable possibility there, Mr. Cakebread, at an encounter at the front door between Mrs. Reid and the wrongly accused.

Appreciate your genuine advocacy on behalf of the dearly departed lady, nothing ever wrong with trying to set the record straight. IF she was coerced to invent things for the cover up apparatus she certainy deserves to have her name blemish free. Fair is fair.  Stay well, safe & healthy men.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 05, 2021, 09:44:56 PM
Gentlemen,

First, certainly appreciate Mr. O'meara's sentiments that he does not believe the wrongly accused fired any shots that fateful afternoon. Hear! hear!

Now, getting back to whether or not Mrs. Hine's decision to move away from her desk momentarily gave Mrs. Reid an opportunity to engage the wrongly accused before Mrs. Hine ventured back to field all those incoming phone calls, let's now take Mr. Williams' following statement into account ----->

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338166/m1/1/

For Mrs. Reid to have returned inside the building immediately as she claims, here are a couple of fair questions:

*Why didn't Mr. Williams (Otis) see her as he returned to his office?

Moreover...

*Why didn't Mr. Williams see Mrs. Reid when he returned to the stairwell for a 2nd time to now head up to the 4th floor to get a better view of the assassination aftermath?

Why on earth would Williams mention Reid?
Why didn't he mention Hine in the office?
Why didn't he mention returning to the office with a group of people?
More importantly, why didn't Hine mention Williams coming in on his own?
What point are you trying to make here?

Quote
There's no question that Mrs. Reid saw the wrongly accused, she just moved the instance up a flight of stairs far removed from the small storage room on the first floor.

 "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside
watching the parade. We saw him [Oswald] in a small storage room on
the ground floor.
"
-- Texas School Book Depository VP Ochus V. Campbell, courtesy of the New York Herald

Strangely in his CE 1381 Campbell has no idea who Oswald is and that he never saw him in the TSBD at all, never mind on the day of the assassination.
Hmmmm...
Not only that - just because Campbell made this statement about seeing Oswald on the first floor you have, by some weird alchemy, come to the conclusion Reid was somehow involved with Campbell's suspect observation and that she then morphed this into the very detailed account she gives of meeting Oswald on the 2nd floor.

The question you should be asking is - Why didn't Williams see Oswald when he returned inside the building?

Quote
Lest we forget, Mrs. Hine's names Mrs. Reid as a member of the group she observed accompanied by Mr. Campbell's returning party upstairs ---->

Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Jlolina (spelling). Miss Martha Reid, Mrs.
Reid
, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that’s all I recall, sir.


Wow.
Lest we forget (again) Hine specifically states she has no recollection of Reid coming in:

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir;

Quote
Again, the challenge here for Mrs. Reid's phantom encounter w/the wrongly accused is to explain away how she didn't cross paths with Mr. Williams (not once, but twice).

Why?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 05, 2021, 10:08:01 PM
Last thought today gentlemen as I wish all who may pass this way best wishes to remain well, safe & healthy amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we all face.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into-well, talked to some of the officers
around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had
come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was
mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what
had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time
the President’s motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in
the building.
The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we
went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being
the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor.
And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn’t see
anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That’s right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front
door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the
elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELXN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYEB. Well, I don’t know who pushed it, but we went up to the top
floor.
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top


Interesting how quickly Mr. Belin steers the subject matter far and away from the mystery man who comes to Inspector Sawyer's aid. Also interesting that this man just so happens to be right by the small storage room, the passenger elevator and stairwell there. Given the timing sequence (12:34PM) of Inspector Sawyer's statement, it's clear there is a good reason to avoid identifying this mystery man for the record. After all, according to a hastily contrived script, wasn't he suppose to be on a phantom bus ride, cab ride, etc. to be elsewhere for a phantom encounter at 10th & Patton across town?

When one reviews every other male TSBD employee statements/activities/whereabouts around this specific timeline no one else can account for being in this specific position near those stairs and the passenger elevator, which just so happens, you guessed it, right there in close proximity of the small first floor storage room. 

The wrongly accused was framed. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

I think the mystery man was Bill Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:20:24 PM
From the WC testimony of Det. F. M. Turner who entered the Depository approx. 15 minutes after the shooting--------------

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly and who else?
Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina.
Mr. BELIN. They all worked there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them?
Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a warehouse like.


It appears this very scene was caught by Mr Tom Alyea--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/ce/26/Yf54hdTI_o.jpg)

That's Mr Campbell beside Mr Truly (Officer Baker, just off-camera here, is on Mr Truly's other side)

Here's Mr Campbell with his ole time mustache:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/20/e5/hrNS0kW7_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:36:53 PM
Why did Mrs Reid put Mr Oswald in a white tshirt? I mean, if she's trying to help her boss, Mr Truly, then this makes no sense, right?

Wrong! A description of Mr Oswald's clothing during the (fictional) lunchroom encounter is notably missing from ALL of Mr Truly's accounts. He had, of course, encountered Mr Oswald (along with Officer Baker) at the front entrance just after the shots, but must have had no clear recollection afterwards of what he was wearing during this fleeting encounter. And so, when telling his unfortunate puppet Mrs Reid what to put on Mr Oswald, he went with the white tshirt Mr Oswald usually wore while at work.

Meanwhile, Officer Baker had gone on the record about a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up wearing a light brown jacket!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:42:51 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/cc/d9/7Sqsx4pY_o.jpg)

Now read that last paragraph again, only this time bearing in mind a simple fact: Mr Robert Reid's wife was Mrs Robert A. Reid, a.k.a. Jeraldean Reid

Notice anything?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2021, 11:57:19 PM
Item A! Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" AFTER buying a coke in the second floor lunchroom and returning down to one

Item B! A mysterious, impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film

Item C! A figure by the western wall of the doorway in Wiegman and Darnell

What do those who refuse to accept Item A all have in common? They remain flummoxed by Items B & C!

What do those who remain flummoxed by Items B & C all have in common? They ignore Item A!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2021, 12:00:18 AM
What's on your mind, Mr. Frazier?

Trying your best to discreetly come clean sir?

That's exactly what he's doing

(https://images2.imgbox.com/87/8f/lStJS04J_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/98/7d/9BFbKhxt_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 06, 2021, 12:05:42 PM
Why did Mrs Reid put Mr Oswald in a white tshirt? I mean, if she's trying to help her boss, Mr Truly, then this makes no sense, right?

Wrong! A description of Mr Oswald's clothing during the (fictional) lunchroom encounter is notably missing from ALL of Mr Truly's accounts. He had, of course, encountered Mr Oswald (along with Officer Baker) at the front entrance just after the shots, but must have had no clear recollection afterwards of what he was wearing during this fleeting encounter. And so, when telling his unfortunate puppet Mrs Reid what to put on Mr Oswald, he went with the white tshirt Mr Oswald usually wore while at work.

Meanwhile, Officer Baker had gone on the record about a man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up wearing a light brown jacket!  :D

It's good to see Mr Fantasia back in full flow.
You've been making too much sense recently, I was starting to get worried.

You've noticed Truly doesn't describe the man's clothes and from this single observation have spun the fantastical tale of "Truly, Reid and the T-shirt".
Not a whiff of evidence to support it (as per) but presented as an established part of the narrative.
Classic stuff.

So when Baker and Truly were cooking up they're fake hoax 2nd floor encounter they didn't get together on silly little details like the actual appearance of their made-up man. Hmmmm....
You seem to be suggesting that there was no contact whatsoever between Truly and Baker after the day of the assassination and they had to come up with their story there and then in it's final form...
...or were they provided with the story by the FBI but Reid wasn't at the the meeting and gave an incorrect description of Oswald's clothing...
...or was Reid the mastermind as, according to Scranton Westbrook, she is the first one to reveal details concerning the phony fake hoax 2nd floor encounter, telling her co-workers about Oswald before Baker had written his report...
...or....get ready for this...was it Oswald?

Metallic headgear anyone?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 06, 2021, 12:13:55 PM
That's exactly what he's doing

(https://images2.imgbox.com/87/8f/lStJS04J_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/98/7d/9BFbKhxt_o.jpg)

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I'd love to know what fantasy the Tinfoil Twins have spun for these images.

At a guess I'm going to go way out there and suggest that Frazier's sneaky finger pointing is meant to demonstrate to those in the know (and only these 'chosen ones') that Oswald was Prayer Man  ;D

Obviously, what I'm suggesting is completely bananas, totally hat-stand, absolutely crackers but I have a feeling I might be onto something.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 06, 2021, 03:39:35 PM
Item A! Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" AFTER buying a coke in the second floor lunchroom and returning down to one

Item B! A mysterious, impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film

Item C! A figure by the western wall of the doorway in Wiegman and Darnell

What do those who refuse to accept Item A all have in common? They remain flummoxed by Items B & C!

What do those who remain flummoxed by Items B & C all have in common? They ignore Item A!

 Thumb1:


C'mon Ford....Stop clattering like a 1927 Model T......   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 06, 2021, 08:52:17 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/cc/d9/7Sqsx4pY_o.jpg)

Now read that last paragraph again, only this time bearing in mind a simple fact: Mr Robert Reid's wife was Mrs Robert A. Reid, a.k.a. Jeraldean Reid

Notice anything?

No, I do not notice anything..... But then I may be at a disadvantage... because  you have on your magic insight glasses and your tinfoil beanie...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2021, 10:02:00 PM
It's good to see (~snippety snip snip~)

So when Baker and Truly were cooking up they're

*their

Quote
fake hoax 2nd floor encounter

Nope, they didn't cook up the hoax together

Quote
they didn't get together on silly little details like the actual appearance of their made-up man. Hmmmm....
You seem to be suggesting that there was no contact whatsoever between Truly and Baker after the day of the assassination and they had to come up with their story there and then in it's final form...
...or were they provided with the story by the FBI but Reid wasn't at the the meeting and gave an incorrect description of Oswald's clothing...
...or was Reid the mastermind as, according to Scranton Westbrook, she is the first one to reveal details concerning the phony fake hoax 2nd floor encounter, telling her co-workers about Oswald before Baker had written his report...

And before she even knew Mr Oswald's name  :D

Quote
...or....get ready for this...was it Oswald?

The evidence suggests that Officer Baker took a long time to agree to the script. From 11/22/63 to March '64 the man is to all intents and purposes AWOL

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2021, 10:05:57 PM
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I'd love to know what fantasy the Tinfoil Twins have spun for these images.

At a guess I'm going to go way out there and suggest that Frazier's sneaky finger pointing is meant to demonstrate to those in the know (and only these 'chosen ones') that Oswald was Prayer Man  ;D

Yes, I believe Mr Frazier is pointing to the exact Prayer Man spot for a reason

Quote
Obviously, what I'm suggesting is completely bananas, totally hat-stand, absolutely crackers but I have a feeling I might be onto something.

I seem to remember your using similarly mocking language in response to my entirely reasonable observation that the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman is not natural. How did that work out for you?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 07, 2021, 02:09:22 AM
Yes, I believe Mr Frazier is pointing to the exact Prayer Man spot for a reason

I seem to remember your using similarly mocking language in response to my entirely reasonable observation that the shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman is not natural. How did that work out for you?

 Thumb1:

I agreed that there was something odd about it and I still do.
Unlike you I've not woven some fantastical tale out of it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 07, 2021, 05:57:23 AM
it Was a question early on about why BWF did not apparently see PM/Oswald and the answer then was it was because PM was behind Frazier while in that corner.

Then when Mytton  pointed out that PM was only 5’3” it seemed to be implausible PM was Oswald anyway.

Then the idea that PM could be the 5’-4” height Sarah Stanton, was floated , which at the time Stantons location was in question having moved away from Pauline Sanders as there did not apoear to be a fat woman there blocking the east side entrance door.

That seems to been resolved now as Stanton is the Fluffy White Shirt Person with both hands raised to shade the face. Which person previously had been thought to be Joe Molina.

with this newly (discovered?) image in the 1st print Altgens photo 6  in which it appears there is a forearm raised and a bottle in hand, ,this means it’s probably PM stepping down to be IN FRONT of BWF, not to mention also Billy Lovelady,

So what does Mr.Mytton, the resident defender of the WC theory have to say about all this as there does seem
Be a noticeable absence of an LN rebuttal to this thread, which I hope is not due to simply dismissing the issue because Zeon is agreeing with Mr. Ford :)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 07, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
it Was a question early on about why BWF did not apparently see PM/Oswald and the answer then was it was because PM was behind Frazier while in that corner.

Then when Mytton  pointed out that PM was only 5’3” it seemed to be implausible PM was Oswald anyway.

Then the idea that PM could be the 5’-4” height Sarah Stanton, was floated , which at the time Stantons location was in question having moved away from Pauline Sanders as there did not apoear to be a fat woman there blocking the east side entrance door.

That seems to been resolved now as Stanton is the Fluffy White Shirt Person with both hands raised to shade the face. Which person previously had been thought to be Joe Molina.

with this newly (discovered?) image in the 1st print Altgens photo 6  in which it appears there is a forearm raised and a bottle in hand, ,this means it’s probably PM stepping down to be IN FRONT of BWF, not to mention also Billy Lovelady,

So what does Mr.Mytton, the resident defender of the WC theory have to say about all this as there does seem
Be a noticeable absence of an LN rebuttal to this thread, which I hope is not due to simply dismissing the issue because Zeon is agreeing with Mr. Ford :)

noticeable absence of an LN rebuttal

Rule of thumb: The nuttier the pet theory, the fewer the LN attendees.

There. You're dismissed.

Buh-bye.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2021, 11:26:14 AM
I agreed that there was something odd about it and I still do.

It's more than odd, it's proof that the film was altered. You think they did this for esthetic reasons? Just how desperate are you to keep Mr Oswald off those steps?

Quote
Unlike you I've not woven some fantastical tale out of it.

Well how about you weave a 'non-fantastical' tale out of it then, i.e. suggest a non-Oswald-related reason why a physically impossible shadow runs down Mr Lovelady. Can you do that, Mr O'Meara?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 07, 2021, 06:27:39 PM
It's more than odd, it's proof that the film was altered. You think they did this for esthetic reasons? Just how desperate are you to keep Mr Oswald off those steps?

Tinfoil  BS:

Quote
Well how about you weave a 'non-fantastical' tale out of it then, i.e. suggest a non-Oswald-related reason why a physically impossible shadow runs down Mr Lovelady. Can you do that, Mr O'Meara?

(https://i.postimg.cc/0N70cT7C/wiegman-lovelady-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady's hand is circled.
There is no impossible shadow.
He is simply turned side-on to Wiegman.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2021, 10:47:14 PM

There is no impossible shadow.
He is simply turned side-on to Wiegman.

I love the way you offer your new Anatomically Impossible Explanation with the very same cool assurance with which you used to offer your old Geometrically Impossible Explanation................

(https://images2.imgbox.com/0d/34/3GR4TKDe_o.jpg)

Best of luck contorting Mr Lovelady's body in such a way as to explain this image  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 08, 2021, 11:32:25 AM
I love the way you offer your new Anatomically Impossible Explanation with the very same cool assurance with which you used to offer your old Geometrically Impossible Explanation................

(https://images2.imgbox.com/0d/34/3GR4TKDe_o.jpg)

Best of luck contorting Mr Lovelady's body in such a way as to explain this image  :D

It's a blown-up, distorted image of Lovelady turned side-on but looking towards the camera.
You're theory that this single frame has been altered is ludicrous but nothing compared to the reason you believe its been altered.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 08, 2021, 12:35:57 PM
Talking about your problems with interpreting photos...
I came across this copy of the TSBD steps in Altgens showing Lovelady.
In the 'doctored' copy you put forward to "prove" (LOL :D) Oswald was out front drinking a soda it looks like a a bare white arm (kind of).
In this proper version of the picture I've circled where we can clearly see the check pattern of Lovelady's sleeve where you claim Oswald's arm is.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I would advise anyone who has swallowed Mr Ford's nonsense concerning some kind of Altgens 6 original print that shows LHO's arm to study this image carefully.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 08, 2021, 12:51:16 PM
Then the idea that PM could be the 5’-4” height Sarah Stanton, was floated, which at the time Stantons location was in question having moved away from Pauline Sanders as there did not apoear to be a fat woman there blocking the east side entrance door.

That seems to been resolved now as Stanton is the Fluffy White Shirt Person with both hands raised to shade the face. Which person previously had been thought to be Joe Molina

 :D :D :D

The whole Stanton as Prayer Man conspiracy was totally ridiculous. A 300+ pound fat woman with white hair did not even come close to looking like the Prayer Man figure who has black hair with a receding hairline. Plus Buell Frazier never had her standing to his right and she immediately went inside the building to go upstairs after she heard the shots.         
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 08, 2021, 03:07:38 PM
It's more than odd, it's proof that the film was altered. You think they did this for esthetic reasons? Just how desperate are you to keep Mr Oswald off those steps?

Well how about you weave a 'non-fantastical' tale out of it then, i.e. suggest a non-Oswald-related reason why a physically impossible shadow runs down Mr Lovelady. Can you do that, Mr O'Meara?

 Thumb1:

 it's proof that the film was altered.

Altered??     Are you serious?     Do you really think there was a necessity to alter a photo that is nothing but a grainy shadowy illusion?   C'mon  Mr F......
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 08, 2021, 04:01:13 PM
:D :D :D

The whole Stanton as Prayer Man conspiracy was totally ridiculous. A 300+ pound fat woman with white hair did not even come close to looking like the Prayer Man figure who has black hair with a receding hairline. Plus Buell Frazier never had her standing to his right and she immediately went inside the building to go upstairs after she heard the shots.       

(https://i.postimg.cc/qBLX2dmn/stanton-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Sure looks fat to me.
As for white hair I assume you're talking about this pic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0XNKBwp/Stanton-Pic.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Stanton was 41 at the time of the assassination.
The woman in the pic looks like she's in her sixties.
Any chance her hair was a different colour when she was twenty years younger?
Also, note the hairline.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2021, 04:26:32 PM
It's a blown-up, distorted image of Lovelady turned side-on but looking towards the camera.

Lol.....

(https://images2.imgbox.com/65/74/2xv9O0cz_o.jpg)

What you claim is anatomically ludicrous, just the way your earlier 'solution' ('It's shadow from the west column, duh') was geometrically ludicrous, just the way your 'solution' to Prayer Man ('Sarah Stanton') was Doylistically ludicrous. Anytime LHO-On-The-Steps comes up, your rational faculties seem to desert you, Mr O'Meara

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2021, 04:28:28 PM
:D :D :D

The whole Stanton as Prayer Man conspiracy was totally ridiculous. A 300+ pound fat woman with white hair did not even come close to looking like the Prayer Man figure who has black hair with a receding hairline. Plus Buell Frazier never had her standing to his right and she immediately went inside the building to go upstairs after she heard the shots.       

The fact that Ms Stanton is STILL the sorry best Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps can come up with is kinda telling, isn't it?  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2021, 04:32:30 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBLX2dmn/stanton-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Sure looks fat to me.
As for white hair I assume you're talking about this pic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0XNKBwp/Stanton-Pic.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Stanton was 41 at the time of the assassination.
The woman in the pic looks like she's in her sixties.

 :D

Mr O'Meara doesn't realize that Ms Stanton's relatives dated this photograph to around the time of the assassination. The moment the photograph was first posted by poor Mr Doyle, everyone burst out laughing. Mr O'Meara's revival of his long-discredited claim merits the same response, with an extra guffaw thrown in on account of his sheer ignorance of the basics
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 08, 2021, 04:35:40 PM
Lol.....

(https://images2.imgbox.com/65/74/2xv9O0cz_o.jpg)

What you claim is anatomically ludicrous, just the way your earlier 'solution' ('It's shadow from the west column, duh') was geometrically ludicrous, just the way your 'solution' to Prayer Man ('Sarah Stanton') was Doylistically ludicrous. Anytime LHO-On-The-Steps comes up, your rational faculties seem to desert you, Mr O'Meara

 Thumb1:

 "Anytime LHO-On-The-Steps comes up, your rational faculties seem to desert you, Mr O'Meara"

I notice you've dodged the pic of Lovelady's sleeve which blows your "Oswald enjoying a soda at the time of the assassination" theory out of the water.
Thanks for acknowledging I have rational faculties.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2021, 04:39:05 PM
"Anytime LHO-On-The-Steps comes up, your rational faculties seem to desert you, Mr O'Meara"

I notice you've dodged the pic of Lovelady's sleeve which blows your "Oswald enjoying a soda at the time of the assassination" theory out of the water.
Thanks for acknowledging I have rational faculties.

I can't see any images you've been posting, Mr O'Meara. Any chance you could use Imgbox?

Now! If the image you refer to is a Wiegman frame, as it seems to be, then you have completely misunderstood my claim about the timing of Mr Oswald holding the soda bottle in the Altgens photograph.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 08, 2021, 05:34:34 PM
I can't see any images you've been posting, Mr O'Meara. Any chance you could use Imgbox?

Haven't you just responded to some images I posted.
The post in question is Reply#1428


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2021, 10:30:35 PM
Haven't you just responded to some images I posted.
The post in question is Reply#1428

You mean the post where you called the earliest public version of Altgens 'doctored' and a later public version 'proper'? Lol

Now, how about you contort Mr Lovelady's body so as to yield what we see here------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/65/74/2xv9O0cz_o.jpg)

Best of luck!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 08, 2021, 11:01:12 PM
You mean the post where you called the earliest public version of Altgens 'doctored' and a later public version 'proper'? Lol

Now, how about you contort Mr Lovelady's body so as to yield what we see here------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/65/74/2xv9O0cz_o.jpg)

Best of luck!  :D

Once you've explained how Lovelady's sleeve has it's check pattern on it when you insist the arm belongs to Oswald.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

You're going to need a lot more than luck with that.   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 09, 2021, 02:03:21 AM
Once you've explained how Lovelady's sleeve has it's check pattern on it when you insist the arm belongs to Oswald.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg)

You're going to need a lot more than luck with that.   Thumb1:

~Grin~

Thanks for waving the white flag, Mr O'Meara.

We all know that if you really could think of a Lovelady contortion to explain this 'shadow' you'd be falling over yourself to let us know:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/65/74/2xv9O0cz_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 09, 2021, 04:34:12 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBLX2dmn/stanton-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Sure looks fat to me.
As for white hair I assume you're talking about this pic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0XNKBwp/Stanton-Pic.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Stanton was 41 at the time of the assassination.
The woman in the pic looks like she's in her sixties.
Any chance her hair was a different colour when she was twenty years younger?
Also, note the hairline.

According to her family, this picture was taken just a few years after the assassination happened. Her relatives confirmed Stanton had light hair and weighed well over 300 pounds on the day of the assassination. The Prayer Man in no way resembles a 300+ pound fat woman with light hair.

Do you actually think the Prayer Man is well over 300 pounds like Stanton was?

Buell Frazier stated on several occasions that Sarah Stanton was standing to his left. He never said once that she was to his right. Frazier said he was standing outside just a few minutes before the motorcade passed by.

How would Stanton be able to move all the way over to Frazier's extreme right in just a few seconds time while he was still in mid conversation with her? 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 09, 2021, 11:38:56 PM
~Grin~

Thanks for waving the white flag, Mr O'Meara.

We all know that if you really could think of a Lovelady contortion to explain this 'shadow' you'd be falling over yourself to let us know:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/65/74/2xv9O0cz_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:

You're the one waving the white flag Mr Ford.

Explain the sleeve.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 09, 2021, 11:47:22 PM
According to her family, this picture was taken just a few years after the assassination happened. Her relatives confirmed Stanton had light hair and weighed well over 300 pounds on the day of the assassination. The Prayer Man in no way resembles a 300+ pound fat woman with light hair.

Do you actually think the Prayer Man is well over 300 pounds like Stanton was?

Buell Frazier stated on several occasions that Sarah Stanton was standing to his left. He never said once that she was to his right. Frazier said he was standing outside just a few minutes before the motorcade passed by.

How would Stanton be able to move all the way over to Frazier's extreme right in just a few seconds time while he was still in mid conversation with her?

I think the figure in the corner looks fat.
Do you think it looks like scrawny Oswald?

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLJ2xCG9/oswald-scrawny.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

PS: Wiegman makes it clear Frazier was not stood outside when the motorcade passed by.
He shows up in Darnell but not Wiegman. Ignore what he says about being outside in his testimony.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 10, 2021, 12:53:05 AM
I think the figure in the corner looks fat.

The Prayer Man in not 300+ pounds in the photo.

Do you think it looks like scrawny Oswald?

Why does the Prayer figure have to be limited to just Oswald?   

PS: Wiegman makes it clear Frazier was not stood outside when the motorcade passed by.
He shows up in Darnell but not Wiegman. Ignore what he says about being outside in his testimony.

So, are you on the record stating that Buell Frazier is a discredited witness? 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Colin Crow on March 10, 2021, 02:43:42 AM

Note at about 53.27 Frazier states the lady on top step is to his left.......Interestingly Gary Maxk then asks was there anyone up there with camera!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 10, 2021, 03:46:43 AM

Note at about 53.27 Frazier states the lady on top step is to his left.......Interestingly Gary Maxk then asks was there anyone up there with camera!

Correct.

Buell Frazier always stated a lady (Stanton) was to his left. He never said she was to his extreme right or that she ever moved from his left side to move far to his right.

The Prayer figure is not Stanton.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 10, 2021, 10:44:51 AM
Correct.

Buell Frazier always stated a lady (Stanton) was to his left. He never said she was to his extreme right or that she ever moved from his left side to move far to his right.

The Prayer figure is not Stanton.

If its not Stanton and its not Oswald, who is it?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 10, 2021, 11:56:34 AM

So, are you on the record stating that Buell Frazier is a discredited witness?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

I'm on the record as stating a fact.
Frazier puts himself at the top of the front entrance steps by the rail as the 'parade' goes by. Weigman proves, beyond question, that this is not the case.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 11, 2021, 12:25:25 AM
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

I'm on the record as stating a fact.
Frazier puts himself at the top of the front entrance steps by the rail as the 'parade' goes by. Weigman proves, beyond question, that this is not the case.

Since you're discrediting Buell Frazier, we have Sarah Stanton's FBI testimony that doesn't place her in the Prayer Man position. She clearly confirmed she was on the opposite side and went inside the building after she heard three explosions.         
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 11, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
I'm on the record as stating a fact.
Frazier puts himself at the top of the front entrance steps by the rail as the 'parade' goes by. Weigman proves, beyond question, that this is not the case.

I disagree.  Frazier's location is in a deep shadow in Wiegman.  Just because you can't see him doesn't mean he's not there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2021, 01:32:25 AM
You're the one waving the white flag Mr Ford.

Explain the sleeve.

What exactly do you think needs explaining, Mr O'Meara?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2021, 01:33:45 AM
If its not Stanton and its not Oswald, who is it?

And so Mr O'Meara starts to back quietly away from his PM=Stanton nonsense
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 11, 2021, 05:31:23 AM
If its not Stanton and its not Oswald, who is it?

If we knew who it was the mystery would already be solved.

So, are you saying the Prayer Man can only be Stanton or Oswald? Nobody else can be the Prayer Man?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 11, 2021, 05:41:34 AM
The fact that Ms Stanton is STILL the sorry best Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps can come up with is kinda telling, isn't it?  Thumb1:

I had no idea there were other Stanton fans out there.

They want to take a man pictured in the photograph and claim it's a 300+ pound woman.  :D

 Stanton's own testimony refutes their absurd claim. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 11, 2021, 12:08:21 PM
I had no idea there were other Stanton fans out there.

They want to take a man pictured in the photograph and claim it's a 300+ pound woman.  :D

 Stanton's own testimony refutes their absurd claim.

Just for the record Rick, I'd like to point out something I said in Reply #514

"Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected) But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility."

The Stanton thing is an anti- Prayer Man stance.
I find the rabid mentality displayed by PM zealots is something that needs challenging.
There is zero evidence Oswald was on the steps at the time of the assassination and plenty against.
It makes no difference to me whether it's Stanton, Oswald or Jimmy Hoffa stood in the shadows on the steps.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 11, 2021, 12:15:45 PM
I disagree.  Frazier's location is in a deep shadow in Wiegman.  Just because you can't see him doesn't mean he's not there.

Frazier puts himself at the front of the landing, one step down at the time the motorcade passes by. This is not in deep shadow:

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Wiegman proves Frazier is not in this position when the motorcade passes by.
Frazier moves out after Wiegman and is captured in Darnell.
(Unless, of course, he's stood out front, sees Wiegman about to start filming, dives back inside then waits for Darnell to come by before he jumps out again)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 11, 2021, 01:10:01 PM
What exactly do you think needs explaining, Mr O'Meara?

Back in the day you believed the "impossible shadow" was put there to cover up Bill Shelley and you very deceptively used shaky frames from Wiegman to show Shelley was stood behind Lovelady when it was just a double exposure of Lovelady's head.

Then you changed your tune.

In Reply #66 you insisted it was Carolyn Arnold who was being "erased from history" and that her arm could be seen in Altgens 6 shielding her eyes.

"My proposed solution:

Who does Mr Lovelady point to in the Altgens photograph when he tells Mr Bonafede: "That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor"? Why, Ms Carolyn Arnold----------------


(https://i.imgur.com/5ktI8Nf.jpg)

Where in the Altgens photograph is she? Why, just below him, shielding her eyes------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/zZOB1AE.gif)

She's the reason for that ludicrous, physically impossible shadow artificially added down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film------"

You then change your tune again.

This time the shadow is there to cover up the fact Lovelady is wearing long sleeves (Reply #331):

"1. The original Wiegman film showed Mr Lovelady wearing his shirt sleeves rolled down
2. The Darnell film------------which was already out in circulation in the public sphere and so couldn't be messed with--------------showed a man resembling two male Depository employees = a man with his sleeves rolled up, standing on his own near the west wall of the entranceway (=the man we know as Prayer Man)
3. The 'investigating' authorities knew that this man could not be Mr Lovelady; in fact they knew he was none other than Mr Oswald (the suspect who had clearly stated that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade)
4. There was only one thing for it: to take out insurance cover for the day someone noticed sleeves-rolled-up-man and said 'Hey, maybe that's Oswald!': turn Mr Lovelady into a credible candidate for sleeves-rolled-up-man (i.e. Prayer Man) by covering up his right arm in the Wiegman film (and getting him to pretend he had worn a short-sleeved shirt that day)"


So here we have Lovelady's arm blacked out so he could be confused with Oswald/Prayer Man (how this could happen when both Lovelady and PM are shown in the same frame you never quite explain).

Then you change your tune again.

Instead of covering up Lovelady's sleeve to confuse him with PM, his sleeve is now blocked out for a very different reason:

"I am suggesting that Mr Lovelady's sleeved right arm needed to be blackened out in Wiegman because they needed folks to believe that they were seeing his unsleeved left arm in Altgens---------when in fact that 'unsleeved left arm' of Mr Lovelady in Altgmens was something else entirely:"

So what is this "something else entirely"?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/91/XeV4pAaH_o.gif)

"In a nutshell, I believe this is the right arm (and coke) of Prayer Man"

So the arm in Altgens has, according to you, gone from belonging to Carolyn Arnold shielding her eyes to Oswald enjoying a coke!

"What exactly do you think needs explaining, Mr O'Meara?"

To use someone elses phrase - this is what needs a 'log of 'splainin':

You have insisted the arm in Altgens 6 was Arnold's and then Oswald's arm holding a coke. How, then, can you explain that the arm in question has the check pattern on it we see on the rest of Lovelady's shirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A mundane explanation of this would be that its the sleeve of Lovelady's shirt. That's why it seems to be connected to his shoulder and is the same pattern as the rest of his shirt.
I can't wait to hear what your explanation is  8)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 11, 2021, 03:26:40 PM
Just for the record Rick, I'd like to point out something I said in Reply #514

"Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected) But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility."

The Stanton thing is an anti- Prayer Man stance.
I find the rabid mentality displayed by PM zealots is something that needs challenging.
There is zero evidence Oswald was on the steps at the time of the assassination and plenty against.
It makes no difference to me whether it's Stanton, Oswald or Jimmy Hoffa stood in the shadows on the steps.

There is zero evidence Oswald was on the steps at the time of the assassination and plenty against.

Yes, You're right.....The major hurdle is the fact that Lee was seen and verified to have been in the second floor lunchroom about one minute after the LAST shot was fired.  ( LBJ's cover up  committee started the stop watch at the sound of the FIRST shot)     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 11, 2021, 06:56:07 PM
Frazier puts himself at the front of the landing, one step down at the time the motorcade passes by. This is not in deep shadow:

Frazier has said in other interviews that he was standing on the landing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2021, 07:03:27 PM
Back in the day you believed the "impossible shadow" was put there to cover up Bill Shelley and you very deceptively used shaky frames from Wiegman to show Shelley was stood behind Lovelady when it was just a double exposure of Lovelady's head.

Then you changed your tune.

There are facts, and then there are speculative attempts to account for these facts.

a) Impossible Shadow Down Mr Lovelady In Wiegman = Fact

b) Speculative Attempts To Account For This Fact = Speculative Attempts To Account For This Fact

I have been unwavering about a), open to a range of possibilities for b).

You are still in denial about a)

Quote
You have insisted the arm in Altgens 6 was Arnold's and then Oswald's arm holding a coke. How, then, can you explain that the arm in question has the check pattern on it we see on the rest of Lovelady's shirt

A mundane explanation of this would be that its the sleeve of Lovelady's shirt. That's why it seems to be connected to his shoulder and is the same pattern as the rest of his shirt.

Lol

(https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/91/XeV4pAaH_o.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2021, 07:09:53 PM
I had no idea there were other Stanton fans out there.

They want to take a man pictured in the photograph and claim it's a 300+ pound woman.  :D

 Stanton's own testimony refutes their absurd claim.

They don't give a damn who it is as long as it's not Mr Oswald. Why, when the PM image first came to attention a bunch of Nutters assured everyone '"It's Billy Lovelady!" When that didn't pan out, they pivoted to "It's an obese woman!" Tells you a lot about the intellectual honesty of Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 11, 2021, 10:13:04 PM
There are facts, and then there are speculative attempts to account for these facts.

a) Impossible Shadow Down Mr Lovelady In Wiegman = Fact

b) Speculative Attempts To Account For This Fact = Speculative Attempts To Account For This Fact

I have been unwavering about a), open to a range of possibilities for b).

You are still in denial about a)

Lol

(https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/91/XeV4pAaH_o.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

You dare talk about denial while you refuse to explain Lovelady's shirt sleeve in this detailed Altgens pic rather than the over-exposed version you cling to, that has all detail washed out of it.
This isn't going away Alan.
Explain the above image  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 12, 2021, 01:05:02 AM
Just for the record Rick, I'd like to point out something I said in Reply #514

"Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected) But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.
Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).
As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility."

The Stanton thing is an anti- Prayer Man stance.
I find the rabid mentality displayed by PM zealots is something that needs challenging.
There is zero evidence Oswald was on the steps at the time of the assassination and plenty against.
It makes no difference to me whether it's Stanton, Oswald or Jimmy Hoffa stood in the shadows on the steps.

Not sure why you are taking offense at my comment.

You and a couple of others made the false claim that Sarah Stanton is the Prayer Man. One crackpot goes as far to say he has "proven it's Stanton" but can only provide bogus claims for his "so called evidence". When you make a hefty claim as that, you need to provide specific evidence to back up that claim. Not vague references, fabrications, and dismissals as your "evidence".   

Each time I pose a question asking that specific individual how Sarah Stanton was able to be in the Prayer Man position when she was identified on the opposite side, I never get a real answer from that person. I get the same responses as yours, which feigned indignation and my question always is ignored. The reason? That person has no answer to for their failed claim. 

It's a simple question to answer. How was Stanton able to get in the Prayer Man position (as you claim) when she was on the opposite side? All I get is continued obfuscation and no real answer whenever I ask someone who claims Stanton is the Prayer Man.       

Yes, the Sarah Stanton claim has been debunked and I took part in that debunking.

Being a "newbie" has nothing to do with it. You don't even have to know one thing about the assassination. I've asked people that don't know anything about JFK to look at the photo and tell me if they think the Prayer Man is a 300+ pound woman aka Sarah Stanton. They all say "no" and they believe it's a male figure due to the head and receding hairline.

You can explore all the possibilities you want, but you need to back that up with solid evidence, and when that evidence debunks the claim it's time to face the facts that "possibility" is now debunked.         

Now Buell Frazier, Pauline Sanders, and Sarah Stanton herself all place her on the opposite side. Sarah Stanton in her FBI testimony never places herself in the Prayer Man position. Are you going to disregard her testimony?

Obviously you do care because you're very upset over it.

The fact of the matter is, certain people don't want the Prayer Man to be Lee Harvey Oswald, so they use Sarah Stanton as a "stand in" to claim it's not Oswald.

These same people use the "either or" argument. They say it has to either be Oswald or Stanton for their failed claim and they refuse to acknowledge that it can be another unknown person standing there.     

If it makes no difference to you, then why do you keep making absurd claims that Stanton is the Prayer Man, when it's obviously not, by just looking at the size of the figure? The person in the photo is not a 300+ pound woman no matter how hard you try to push for it to be.

And on top of that, Stanton's daughter in law and granddaughter are on audio confirming that Stanton was "huge" at that time. She couldn't get out of the backseat of a car at a funeral because she was so big. That description does not fit the size of the Prayer Man because the Prayer Man in the photo is not "huge" well over 300+ pounds.       
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2021, 03:11:53 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

You dare talk about denial while you refuse to explain Lovelady's shirt sleeve in this detailed Altgens pic

Oh but I don't refuse to explain it, Mr O'Meara--------if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that you're showing me what I believe is a later, doctored version, with necessary 'details' added in. I believe the version Mr Cronkite showed to the American public 11/22/63 was the closest said American public has ever come to seeing what the original looked like. And it shows an unsleeved arm holding a soda bottle---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/01/82/9ixvTMSS_o.gif)

---------with said bottle crossing in front of Mr Lovelady's semi-unbuttoned shirt---------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/79/WFgxc1IN_o.gif)

Still waiting for you to explain in detail how Mr Lovelady's posture can possibly be yielding this 'shadow' in Wiegman--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/2f/0c/BzX4Efif_o.jpg)

Your recent running away from this challenge suggests that this latest 'nothing to see here' claim of yours is going to end no more happily than your previous 'nothing to see here' claim, to wit that Mr Lovelady was 'obviously' in the shadow of the western column!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2021, 03:21:41 AM
If it makes no difference to you, then why do you keep making absurd claims that Stanton is the Prayer Man, when it's obviously not, by just looking at the size of the figure?

It makes an enormous difference to Mr O'Meara. He knows that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" and he desperately wants that claim not to be true. Hence his irrational hostility to all attempts to explore Mr Oswald's claimed alibi.

As for why he pulls a Doyle by identifying PM as Ms Stanton-----------he's desperate, as Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps have been desperate since 2013. They don't have a single credible alternative candidate to Mr Oswald. And the more time passes with their still coming up empty, the more glaring their failure becomes.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 12, 2021, 09:04:21 AM
"Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected) But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.

A couple of people (including one crackpot that's the laughing stock of the JFK assassination community) latched onto the bogus "Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man" claim because their whole goal was to eliminate Oswald as a candidate out of pure desperation. Their phony theory has been easily debunked because they provided no solid evidence that the Prayer Man is actually Stanton. All they do is make the absurd Stanton claim, and then they attempt to manufacture their own "evidence", but they fail at it each time. Stanton's own relatives debunked their phony claim based on her own physical appearance. Stanton clearly does not match the figure.   

So, where is your 100% positive proof that a man in a photograph is really a 300+ pound woman as you are trying to claim?   

Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).

What are you even talking about? When have I ever stated you had a "great deal of knowledge about this subject" or that you didn't?     

As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility."

Obviously you do, because you continue to push this absurd Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man claim with no evidence. How are you being "attacked" Mr. O'Meara? I've asked you to provide proof for your "Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man" claim and you haven't.

You can take whatever stance you want, but when you have zero evidence to prove it as factual, you need to give it up.

Exploring possibilities are fine, but when the evidence is against you, then that's the time to let it go. You're continuing to push a lost cause.   

The Stanton thing is an anti- Prayer Man stance.
I find the rabid mentality displayed by PM zealots is something that needs challenging.
There is zero evidence Oswald was on the steps at the time of the assassination and plenty against.
It makes no difference to me whether it's Stanton, Oswald or Jimmy Hoffa stood in the shadows on the steps.

There's nothing wrong with challenging anybody or anything, in fact I recommend it, but when you have a losing claim like "Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man" you need to let it go and chalk it up as a loss.

Lee Harvey Oswald is not the issue here, it's Sarah Stanton, the 300+ pound woman you are claiming is in the photo instead of the unknown man who was actually photographed.

The figure in question is not Sarah Stanton based on her own testimony, physical appearance, and eye witness accounts.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 12, 2021, 03:43:43 PM
Not sure why you are taking offense at my comment.

You and a couple of others made the false claim that Sarah Stanton is the Prayer Man. One crackpot goes as far to say he has "proven it's Stanton" but can only provide bogus claims for his "so called evidence". When you make a hefty claim as that, you need to provide specific evidence to back up that claim. Not vague references, fabrications, and dismissals as your "evidence".   

Each time I pose a question asking that specific individual how Sarah Stanton was able to be in the Prayer Man position when she was identified on the opposite side, I never get a real answer from that person. I get the same responses as yours, which feigned indignation and my question always is ignored. The reason? That person has no answer to for their failed claim. 

It's a simple question to answer. How was Stanton able to get in the Prayer Man position (as you claim) when she was on the opposite side? All I get is continued obfuscation and no real answer whenever I ask someone who claims Stanton is the Prayer Man.       

Yes, the Sarah Stanton claim has been debunked and I took part in that debunking.

Being a "newbie" has nothing to do with it. You don't even have to know one thing about the assassination. I've asked people that don't know anything about JFK to look at the photo and tell me if they think the Prayer Man is a 300+ pound woman aka Sarah Stanton. They all say "no" and they believe it's a male figure due to the head and receding hairline.

You can explore all the possibilities you want, but you need to back that up with solid evidence, and when that evidence debunks the claim it's time to face the facts that "possibility" is now debunked.         

Now Buell Frazier, Pauline Sanders, and Sarah Stanton herself all place her on the opposite side. Sarah Stanton in her FBI testimony never places herself in the Prayer Man position. Are you going to disregard her testimony?

Obviously you do care because you're very upset over it.

The fact of the matter is, certain people don't want the Prayer Man to be Lee Harvey Oswald, so they use Sarah Stanton as a "stand in" to claim it's not Oswald.

These same people use the "either or" argument. They say it has to either be Oswald or Stanton for their failed claim and they refuse to acknowledge that it can be another unknown person standing there.     

If it makes no difference to you, then why do you keep making absurd claims that Stanton is the Prayer Man, when it's obviously not, by just looking at the size of the figure? The person in the photo is not a 300+ pound woman no matter how hard you try to push for it to be.

And on top of that, Stanton's daughter in law and granddaughter are on audio confirming that Stanton was "huge" at that time. She couldn't get out of the backseat of a car at a funeral because she was so big. That description does not fit the size of the Prayer Man because the Prayer Man in the photo is not "huge" well over 300+ pounds.     

Yeah Rick,
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
My reply included a post from ages ago (reply#524) that explained my stance on Stanton.
You seem to have taken it as if it was meant for you personally.
It's not.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 12, 2021, 07:43:58 PM
I think the mystery man was Bill Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

At 12:34PM, Inspector Sawyer's entrance time into the TSBD, let's take Mr. Shelley's stated whereabouts into consideration ---->

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.


So, even if we give him the 12:33 mark instead of the 12:34, the following actions eliminate Mr. Shelley from encountering Inspector Sawyer inside the building at 12:34PM ---->

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No;


from 12:34PM on, here's an account of Mr. Shelley's actions/whereabouts away from the building, let  alone in the front foyer by the first floor storage room, stairway and passenger elevator ---->

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.


Again, only one TSBD male employee can account for the timing sequence (12:34PM) of coming to Inspector Sawyer's aid; however, because his identity runs counter to the horse manure we have been fed for five decades about a hasty escape to perform a bogus action clear across town at 10th & Patton his identity has to be suppressed from public consumption.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 12, 2021, 07:55:13 PM
Not to mention, given Mr. Shelley's statement ---->

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. Shelley knew the difference between a white hat ranked Inspector w/the Dallas Police Department accompanied by a couple of full uniformed dress police officers than his above observation to the contrary (plainclothesmen who could have been Secret Service and/or FBI agents for all he knew.

Again, only one TSBD male employee in that timing sequence (12:34) could account for the actions of Inspector Sawyer's "this man"... the wrongly accused was framed. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

*Sidebar: also let's take into account that MUCH time had passed before Roy Truly could have requested Mr. Shelley to watch the elevators and stairs (given Roy Truly was off on a phantom dash up the rear stairs w/Baker, while Mr. Shelley was still down by the railroad parking lot watching activity unfold w/Mr. Lovelady). Soooo, in essence, given their actions/whereabouts, Yes, Roy Truly could have indeed requested Mr. Shelley to watch the elevators after they reengaged at some point in the building, which was looooong after Inspector Sawyer's 12:34PM sojourn upstairs in the passenger elevator courtesy of "This man"...

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 12, 2021, 10:00:16 PM
Gentlemen,

Last thought today...make no mistake about it, the wrongly accused was right where he said he was when President Kennedy was ambushed by a bunch of treasonous cowards. After stepping out into the crisp Autumn air to watch the P. parade, he made his way back inside during the immediate aftermath, where he was actually seen in the first floor storage room as others made their way back inside the building.

In their concerted efforts to frame him, all of the key witnesses have been spared cross examination. Roy Truly (nothing truly about him) and Marrion Baker cannot even get their stories straight. One small, yet defining example is the following of many examples...

Baker says in his testimony that he & Roy Truly were atop the roof for between 5 & 10 minutes. Yet Baker claims he saw Inspector Sawyer...

Mr. BAKER - The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES - City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator


The problem that presents here for Baker is he cannot profess to be atop the roof w/Roy Truly and yet in the same timing sequence of Inspector Sawyer's brief sojourn upstairs see the Inspector while he is suppose to be atop the roof...

Compare Inspector Sawyer's timeline sequence and note the only way for Baker to have seen him in the short 3 minute possibility is Baker would have to be lying about being atop the roof simultaneously...

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.


Note in that brief timing sequence (12:34PM-12:37PM) Baker cannot profess to be atop the roof yet be on his way back down in time to see someone who could have went up and back down again twice in the time Baker supposedly was atop the roof...

Mr. BELIN - In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?
Mr. BAKER - This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.


Yet, he says he saw Inspector Sawyer who only spent a minute checking the 4th floor storage area before returning immediately downstairs.

A highly-skilled defense attorney would have eaten Baker and Roy Truly alive ---->

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.


My, my, my Freudian slip there. Mr. Truly? Why were you in the sniper's nest before the incriminating evidence was found? Care to elaborate or Cat got your tongue?! Pleading the 5th Roy Truly?!

Again, the wrongly accused was right where he said he was all along. He was framed. It's that simple really. The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.

*Be well, stay healthy & safe everyone amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we all are facing. 



 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 12, 2021, 11:26:39 PM
Yeah Rick,
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
My reply included a post from ages ago (reply#524) that explained my stance on Stanton.
You seem to have taken it as if it was meant for you personally.
It's not.

Well Dan, members usually don't copy and paste a reply that was addressed to another member from several months ago (October 4, 2020) in their current reply (March 11, 2021) to a different member which has nothing to do with the current discussion. There's no point to that especially when you replied to my post that was directed at Mr. Ford.

And still you haven't answered any of my questions or provided a single shred of evidence for your bogus Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man claim. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2021, 11:38:25 PM

Baker says in his testimony that he & Roy Truly were atop the roof for between 5 & 10 minutes. Yet Baker claims he saw Inspector Sawyer...

Mr. BAKER - The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES - City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator


Setting aside the timing issue momentarily..................

Inspector Sawyer will soon be broadcasting the following on Channel 2:

"Well, apparently, the shots might have come from this building. It's unknown whether he's still there or not. It's unknown whether he was there in the first place."

Let's take each element in turn.....................

"It's unknown whether he's still there or not": This does not sound like a description based on a man seen running out the back door of the Depository. Inspector Sawyer's description would seem to have come from a different source.

"It's unknown whether he was there in the first place": This does not sound like a description based on a man seen firing from one of the Depository windows (by e.g. Mr Howard Brennan). (I am assuming here that "in the first place" means at the the actual time shots were fired.) Inspector Sawyer's description would seem to have come from a different source.

One would very much like to suggest that the true source was none other than Officer Marrion Baker, whose affidavit description of the man caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor is SO close to the suspect description that went out over Channel 2. One would furthermore like to suggest that Officer Baker mentioned this man to Inspector Sawyer during their brief rendezvous on the "third or fourth floor" (!).

However! What doesn't fit here is that the Channel 2 description mentions that the man was "carrying what looked to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester"....................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2021, 11:51:21 PM
Setting aside the timing issue momentarily..................

Inspector Sawyer will soon be broadcasting the following on Channel 2:

"Well, apparently, the shots might have come from this building. It's unknown whether he's still there or not. It's unknown whether he was there in the first place."

Let's take each element in turn.....................

"It's unknown whether he's still there or not": This does not sound like a description based on a man seen running out the back door of the Depository. Inspector Sawyer's description would seem to have come from a different source.

"It's unknown whether he was there in the first place": This does not sound like a description based on a man seen firing from one of the Depository windows (by e.g. Mr Howard Brennan). (I am assuming here that "in the first place" means at the the actual time shots were fired.) Inspector Sawyer's description would seem to have come from a different source.

One would very much like to suggest that the true source was none other than Officer Marrion Baker, whose affidavit description of the man caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor is SO close to the suspect description that went out over Channel 2. One would furthermore like to suggest that Officer Baker mentioned this man to Inspector Sawyer during their brief rendezvous on the "third or fourth floor" (!).

However! What doesn't fit here is that the Channel 2 description mentions that the man was "carrying what looked to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester"....................

It's possible that Inspector Sawyer COMBINED what he heard from Officer Baker (description of man) with what a different witness or officer told him a little earlier or later (description of rifle-------and only of rifle--------seen at time of shooting). The carrying-a-rifle part might simply be Inspector Sawyer's joining of these two dots. His otherwise perplexing uncertainty as to whether THIS man was EITHER in the building at the time OR still in the building now might be explained by just such a joining of the dots.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2021, 01:53:18 AM
It's possible that Inspector Sawyer COMBINED what he heard from Officer Baker (description of man) with what a different witness or officer told him a little earlier or later (description of rifle-------and only of rifle--------seen at time of shooting). The carrying-a-rifle part might simply be Inspector Sawyer's joining of these two dots. His otherwise perplexing uncertainty as to whether THIS man was EITHER in the building at the time OR still in the building now might be explained by just such a joining of the dots.

This would also explain another curious transmission by Inspector Sawyer. Asked by the Dispatcher whether there is a clothing description for the suspect, Inspector Sawyer says "Current witness can't remember that".

Current witness-------------suggests that a) the person he has just spoken to is not the only witness he has spoken to, and b) this second witness has given him the rifle-only description. In Inspector Sawyer's brief exchange with Officer Baker on the third or fourth floor several minutes ago, clothing may not have come up, only physical characteristics (height, weight, age, race).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 13, 2021, 09:44:38 AM
I'm on the record as stating a fact.
Frazier puts himself at the top of the front entrance steps by the rail as the 'parade' goes by. Weigman proves, beyond question, that this is not the case.

Actually, you're stating a falsehood. Weigman doesn't "prove" anything because Buell Frazier wasn't visible due to the darkness of the shadows.   

Looks like you left out this important information Mr. O'meara.

BALL - We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by. Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 13, 2021, 02:11:46 PM
Actually, you're stating a falsehood. Weigman doesn't "prove" anything because Buell Frazier wasn't visible due to the darkness of the shadows.   

Looks like you left out this important information Mr. O'meara.

BALL - We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by. Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.

No I'm not stating a falsehood Rick.

I said:

"Frazier puts himself at the top of the front entrance steps by the rail as the 'parade' goes by."

Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, was standing right in there.

Mr. BALL - Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.

Frazier testifies that he is stood by the rail at the top of the steps of the front entrance and that he is stood there until the "parade come by".
Do you dispute that? Is that a fact or not.

I also wrote:

"Weigman proves, beyond question, that this is not the case."

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhFCnbMk/Wiegman-still-good-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Above is a still from the Wiegman film. Frazier is nowhere to be seen. Wiegman does indeed prove Frazier was not in the position he specifically testified to being.
Do you dispute that?

Please explain the "falsehood" contained in the statement I made.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 13, 2021, 02:26:03 PM
Well Dan, members usually don't copy and paste a reply that was addressed to another member from several months ago (October 4, 2020) in their current reply (March 11, 2021) to a different member which has nothing to do with the current discussion. There's no point to that especially when you replied to my post that was directed at Mr. Ford.

Just read the post Rick. It's fairly self -evident and you were wrong to go off half-cocked about it.
It was your mistake, not mine.

Quote
And still you haven't answered any of my questions or provided a single shred of evidence for your bogus Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man claim.

The only claim I'm making as far as Stanton is concerned is that the case for her being Prayer Man is far superior to the case for it being Oswald. Stanton is known to have been on the top landing as was witnessed there by others. This alone makes her case superior.
There is not one scrap of evidence for Oswald being on the top step - literally nothing. But this does not deter some researchers from pushing this  BS: with an almost evangelical zeal. I made the mistake of questioning it and was immediately attacked and I'm not having it.
Earlier in the thread you posted this:

"They want to take a man pictured in the photograph and claim it's a 300+ pound woman. "

What "man" were you referring to?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 13, 2021, 03:06:59 PM
Just read the post Rick. It's fairly self -evident and you were wrong to go off half-cocked about it.
It was your mistake, not mine.

I didn't make any "mistake". You replied to me with a post from October 4, 2020 that you made to another member that had nothing to do with the current discussion we were having.


The only claim I'm making as far as Stanton is concerned is that the case for her being Prayer Man is far superior to the case for it being Oswald. Stanton is known to have been on the top landing as was witnessed there by others. This alone makes her case superior.

There is no "superior case" for Stanton being the Prayer Man because she never placed herself there, other witnesses don't place her there, her family already said PM wasn't her, and her physical appearance automatically disqualifies her.     

And you still never told me how Stanton was able to appear in your "claimed location" when she was standing on the opposite side confirmed by two witnesses. How did she get there?       

There is not one scrap of evidence for Oswald being on the top step - literally nothing. But this does not deter some researchers from pushing this  BS: with an almost evangelical zeal. I made the mistake of questioning it and was immediately attacked and I'm not having it.

Well, when you try to make a hefty claim with no evidence then you should expect some pushback from researchers. 

Oswald isn't the figure in question here. Sarah Stanton is. The Prayer Man is not Sarah Stanton based on her own FBI testimony, physical appearance, her family stating it's not her, and eye witness accounts.

See, your goal is to keep Oswald out as a potential candidate at any cost, so you try to throw a 300+ pound fat woman into the mix by pretending she is the Prayer Man. That's why your claim is ridiculous. Plus you never can offer any real evidence for your claim because there isn't any.         

Earlier in the thread you posted this:

"They want to take a man pictured in the photograph and claim it's a 300+ pound woman. "

What "man" were you referring to?

The unknown man who is standing there that isn't Sarah Stanton. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2021, 08:31:40 PM

Above is a still from the Wiegman film. Frazier is nowhere to be seen.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/05/ae/ofMpEBFa_o.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 14, 2021, 04:36:30 AM
That Mr. Ford photo illustrates perfectly Mr.Plant’s question : How could Stanton get to that west corner of the landing.

It’s a question that I should have asked myself way back when I thought the corner was a logical place for a 300 lb woman to be.

With  BWF and Mr.  Shelly and Mr. Williams there on that 4’width landing then 2’ at least is taken up leaving a very narrow thruway which I doubt the 300 lb round woman would choose to
attempt to squeeze thru

Especially

When an easier place to move from her blocking the door position beside Pauline Sanders, is simply  to move FORWARD and down a step or 2 to the position that Mr. Ford has identified as the person with both hands raised to shield face from sunlight.

This position is where Lovelady and Frazier seem to suggest is where Stanton was located.

The bottle at the steps, the bottle in the right hand, the bottle in the raised forehand in Altgens, the dark clothing, sleeves rolled up, the Hosty note, the corner being a logical place for the “loner” Oswald to stand, the narrow thruway which only a slender 130lb Oswald could probably navigate without being noticed...

It’s adding up FAR in favor of PM = Oswald and virtually null and void that PM could plausibly be Stanton.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on March 14, 2021, 09:16:40 AM

 Two questions.

 Why was the Hosty note about Oswald watching p parade hidden from public for several decades?


 Why is NBC refusing to release the original Wiegman and Darnell films?

 Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 14, 2021, 10:45:31 AM

There is no "superior case" for Stanton being the Prayer Man because she never placed herself there, other witnesses don't place her there, her family already said PM wasn't her, and her physical appearance automatically disqualifies her.     

And you still never told me how Stanton was able to appear in your "claimed location" when she was standing on the opposite side confirmed by two witnesses. How did she get there?   

Evidence that points to the possibility of Stanton being on the west side of the entrance steps at some point:

1) Billy Lovelady's CE 1381:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the
Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing
on the top step to the far right against the wall of the
entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository.
At this time I recall that William H Shelley, who resides at
128 South Tatum, Dallas, and Mrs Sarah Stanton, also of
Dallas, Texas, both of whom are likewise employed by the
Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me."

As the President passes by Lovelady has himself positioned by the far west wall of the entranceway. In this clip from the Hughes footage it is possible to make out Lovelady by the far west wall as the President passes by:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyvvksPP/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady is clearly placing Stanton on the west side of the entranceway.

2) Stanton's CE 1381

"...I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqwyXCQS/Altgens6-Corbisr-Crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is clear from Altgens 6 that anyone standing on the east side of the entranceway has a clear view of the motorcade as the shots are being fired. Only someone standing closer to the west wall would not have this clear line of sight. Stanton appears to be saying it was not possible for her to see the President's car at the moment of the shots - "I could not see"

3) This interview with Frazier.

@ 51:10 in this interview:


“...a lady come by and she was crying, ‘cause she had been down by the sidewalk, somewhere down toward the triple underpass and she come by and she said, “They have shot the President”.
And so, Sarah, the lady I was standing by up on the top step back in the shadows...we looked at one another, and we really didn’t have a lot to say, we just listened to what the lady told us…”

Frazier identifies Sarah as being on the top step standing back in the shadows. People on the east side of the front steps are not standing in shadow. Only someone on the west side would be described as standing “back in the shadows.”

In this still from Darnell Frazier is clearly seen but where is Stanton?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tggWS3jc/Darnell-Enhanced-Blog.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Obviously there is Pauline Sanders statement that Stanton was on the east side of the entranceway and in other interviews Frazier seems to indicate Sarah was to his left. The common sense approach to all this evidence is that Stanton moved from the east side to the west as the motorcade approached.

Quote
Well, when you try to make a hefty claim with no evidence then you should expect some pushback from researchers. 

That's exactly what advocates for Oswald as Prayer Man have done. There is not one scrap of evidence that places Oswald on the steps.

Quote
See, your goal is to keep Oswald out as a potential candidate at any cost, so you try to throw a 300+ pound fat woman into the mix by pretending she is the Prayer Man. That's why your claim is ridiculous. Plus you never can offer any real evidence for your claim because there isn't any.

You sound like Alan here.
Why rule out Oswald as a potential candidate?
I don't believe Oswald took the shots but I can't say definitively where he was at that time.
It would be amazing if it were Oswald on the steps.
So why not accept it is Oswald on the steps?       

Because there is not one scrap of evidence that places him there.
The question is - How can other researchers place him there?

Quote
The unknown man who is standing there that isn't Sarah Stanton.

How do you know it's a man?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 14, 2021, 05:21:14 PM
Evidence that points to the possibility of Stanton being on the west side of the entrance steps at some point:

1) Billy Lovelady's CE 1381:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the
Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing
on the top step to the far right against the wall of the
entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository.
At this time I recall that William H Shelley, who resides at
128 South Tatum, Dallas, and Mrs Sarah Stanton, also of
Dallas, Texas, both of whom are likewise employed by the
Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me."

He mentions Ms Stanton because he can see her in the Altgens photograph-------------she's the lady from the second floor he points out to Mr Dom Bonafede.

Quote
As the President passes by Lovelady has himself positioned by the far west wall of the entranceway. In this clip from the Hughes footage it is possible to make out Lovelady by the far west wall as the President passes by:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyvvksPP/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady is clearly placing Stanton on the west side of the entranceway.

2) Stanton's CE 1381

"...I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqwyXCQS/Altgens6-Corbisr-Crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is clear from Altgens 6 that anyone standing on the east side of the entranceway has a clear view of the motorcade as the shots are being fired. Only someone standing closer to the west wall would not have this clear line of sight. Stanton appears to be saying it was not possible for her to see the President's car at the moment of the shots - "I could not see"

3) This interview with Frazier.

@ 51:10 in this interview:


“...a lady come by and she was crying, ‘cause she had been down by the sidewalk, somewhere down toward the triple underpass and she come by and she said, “They have shot the President”.
And so, Sarah, the lady I was standing by up on the top step back in the shadows...we looked at one another, and we really didn’t have a lot to say, we just listened to what the lady told us…”

Frazier identifies Sarah as being on the top step standing back in the shadows. People on the east side of the front steps are not standing in shadow. Only someone on the west side would be described as standing “back in the shadows.”

In this still from Darnell Frazier is clearly seen but where is Stanton?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tggWS3jc/Darnell-Enhanced-Blog.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Obviously there is Pauline Sanders statement that Stanton was on the east side of the entranceway and in other interviews Frazier seems to indicate Sarah was to his left. The common sense approach to all this evidence is that Stanton moved from the east side to the west as the motorcade approached.

Extraordinary that these long-discredited garbage Doyle arguments are being advanced by someone who purports to be a serious student of the case!

Mr O'Meara's time would be much better spent figuring out how Mr Lovelady's body can be contorted such as to yield this 'shadow'--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/JaYvUAX.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 14, 2021, 06:46:52 PM
He mentions Ms Stanton because he can see her in the Altgens photograph-------------she's the lady from the second floor he points out to Mr Dom Bonafede.

?? Where in Altgens 6 is Sarah Stanton??

Quote
Extraordinary that these long-discredited garbage Doyle arguments are being advanced by someone who purports to be a serious student of the case!

Simply point out how they've been discredited rather than make this nothing comment.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 15, 2021, 05:50:07 AM
Evidence that points to the possibility of Stanton being on the west side of the entrance steps at some point:

1) Billy Lovelady's CE 1381:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the
Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing
on the top step to the far right against the wall of the
entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository.
At this time I recall that William H Shelley, who resides at
128 South Tatum, Dallas, and Mrs Sarah Stanton, also of
Dallas, Texas, both of whom are likewise employed by the
Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me."

Would you agree that "next to me" could literally be in any direction?

Quote
2) Stanton's CE 1381

"...I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

Would you agree that there is not enough information to determine (without guessing) why she could not see the car?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 15, 2021, 11:02:27 AM
Would you agree that "next to me" could literally be in any direction?

Yes

Quote
Would you agree that there is not enough information to determine (without guessing) why she could not see the car?

The point I was making was that if she was stood on the east side of the front steps she "could" see the Limo at the time of the shots.
Altgens 6 clearly demonstrates this.
If she "didn't" see the limo at the time of the shots it might mean she was looking elsewhere at that time.
That she "couldn't" see the limo indicates (to me at least) that it was not possible for her to see the limo at the time of the shots.
She could not see the limo at the time of the shots because it was not possible for her to see the limo at the time of the shots. This is not the case for anyone stood on the east side of the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 15, 2021, 10:25:40 PM
She could not see the limo at the time of the shots because it was not possible for her to see the limo at the time of the shots. This is not the case for anyone stood on the east side of the steps.

OMG! This means that Mr Joe "Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots" Molina can't have been on the east side of the steps either! BIG breakthrough!!!

Also! It means Mr Otis "Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm street embankment I heard three loud blasts" Williams ALSO can't have been on the east side of the steps! MEGA breakthrough!!!!!

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 15, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
IMO, the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised is a better match to Loveladys “next to me” location for Stanton than is PM who is behind and farther from Lovelady in both positions Lovelady was at, the west walll and close to Lewis , then Lovelady moving to the center hand rail position.

BFW statement is ambiguous, and it’s not clear to me if he’s referring to HIS position in shadow or to Stanton.

Fluffy shirt persons height in relation to Lovelady in the Altgen photo when they are next to each other, it appears imo, that Fluffy is about 4” lower than 6’-8” Lovelady so that might be Stanton at 5’-4”

Not certain if both are on the same level step however
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 15, 2021, 11:30:04 PM
Edit Lovelady height to 5’-8”
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 16, 2021, 12:47:24 AM
OMG! This means that Mr Joe "Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots" Molina can't have been on the east side of the steps either! BIG breakthrough!!!

Also! It means Mr Otis "Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm street embankment I heard three loud blasts" Williams ALSO can't have been on the east side of the steps! MEGA breakthrough!!!!!

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:

Mr F,...... Why don't you give up on this nonsense.     Lee Oswald was not on those steps when the shots were fired.

He was at the rear of the TSBD..... Either on the stairs, and on his way to get a Coke, or in the lunchroom....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 16, 2021, 04:55:39 AM
She could not see the limo at the time of the shots because it was not possible for her to see the limo at the time of the shots. This is not the case for anyone stood on the east side of the steps.

That's not necessarily correct.  It depends on what it was (if anything) that prevented her from seeing the limo.  It didn't have to be a wall.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on March 16, 2021, 09:49:51 AM
Did not Marina Oswald herself identify the PM figure as Lee?

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 16, 2021, 11:31:35 AM
That's not necessarily correct.  It depends on what it was (if anything) that prevented her from seeing the limo.  It didn't have to be a wall.

I agree John. It's not "necessarily" the case.
The point I suppose I was making was that Altgens 6 strongly indicates that people stood on the east side of the steps have a clear line of sight to the limo during the initial part of the shooting at least.
It's true that, perhaps at the key moment a person could have sand blown in their eyes so it wasn't possible to see the limo or maybe a pigeon attacked their face making it impossible to see what was going on or maybe....lots of other unlikely possibilities.
But if they were just stood there watching, and nothing weird happened, and they were following the limo with their eyes, I don't see any realistic reason as to why they "couldn't" see what was going on.

Perhaps you have a more realistic suggestion as to why someone stood on the east side of the steps "couldn't" see the limo.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 16, 2021, 12:21:34 PM
I agree John. It's not "necessarily" the case.
The point I suppose I was making was that Altgens 6 strongly indicates that people stood on the east side of the steps have a clear line of sight to the limo during the initial part of the shooting at least.
It's true that, perhaps at the key moment a person could have sand blown in their eyes so it wasn't possible to see the limo or maybe a pigeon attacked their face making it impossible to see what was going on or maybe....lots of other unlikely possibilities.
But if they were just stood there watching, and nothing weird happened, and they were following the limo with their eyes, I don't see any realistic reason as to why they "couldn't" see what was going on.

Perhaps you have a more realistic suggestion as to why someone stood on the east side of the steps "couldn't" see the limo.

Yes. Somebody blocked her view. Next.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 16, 2021, 01:27:16 PM
I agree John. It's not "necessarily" the case.
The point I suppose I was making was that Altgens 6 strongly indicates that people stood on the east side of the steps have a clear line of sight to the limo during the initial part of the shooting at least.
It's true that, perhaps at the key moment a person could have sand blown in their eyes so it wasn't possible to see the limo or maybe a pigeon attacked their face making it impossible to see what was going on or maybe....lots of other unlikely possibilities.
But if they were just stood there watching, and nothing weird happened, and they were following the limo with their eyes, I don't see any realistic reason as to why they "couldn't" see what was going on.

Perhaps you have a more realistic suggestion as to why someone stood on the east side of the steps "couldn't" see the limo.
Billy Lovelady had to hang out to see around that west wall.......If Stanton was behind Lovelady ( as it seems) then she couldn't have seen the Lincoln at the time the shots were fired.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2021, 08:22:08 PM
But if they were just stood there watching, and nothing weird happened, and they were following the limo with their eyes, I don't see any realistic reason as to why they "couldn't" see what was going on.

I don't see any realistic reason------apart from the obvious one-------why you would wish to ignore the statements of Messrs Molina and Williams that they couldn't see what was going on either
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2021, 08:25:19 PM
Yes. Somebody blocked her view. Next.

Mr O'Meara appears to think Altgens 6 was taken from inside the limo...........  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2021, 08:28:11 PM
Mr F,...... Why don't you give up on this nonsense.     Lee Oswald was not on those steps when the shots were fired.

He was at the rear of the TSBD..... Either on the stairs, and on his way to get a Coke, or in the lunchroom....

......or fixing to jump in the domino room shower (according to you)  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 16, 2021, 10:20:58 PM
......or fixing to jump in the domino room shower (according to you)  ::)

Lee did not want to be seen at the time the President passed by the TSBD.   Because he thought that he was playing the same hoax game he had played at Walker's in April.    He thought that it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK ( just as it appeared that he had taken a shot at Walker. )  He thought the scheme was a way to get accepted inside Castro's island bastion but if someone took a photo of him doing something innocuous at the time when he was supposedly taking a pot shot at JFK and that photo surfaced after he was in Cuba.... He face the firing squad.   Lee was prepared to duck into the shower to avoid being seen at the time JFK passed by.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2021, 11:44:20 PM
Lee did not want to be seen at the time the President passed by the TSBD.   Because he thought that he was playing the same hoax game he had played at Walker's in April.    He thought that it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK ( just as it appeared that he had taken a shot at Walker. )  He thought the scheme was a way to get accepted inside Castro's island bastion but if someone took a photo of him doing something innocuous at the time when he was supposedly taking a pot shot at JFK and that photo surfaced after he was in Cuba.... He face the firing squad.   Lee was prepared to duck into the shower to avoid being seen at the time JFK passed by.

Fascinating story, Mr Cakebread!

Meanwhile, back in the real world--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/56/rwKN2Iqx_o.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 17, 2021, 12:41:17 AM
Fascinating story, Mr Cakebread!

Meanwhile, back in the real world--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/56/rwKN2Iqx_o.jpg)

Please point out where Lee Oswald said that he was outside and heard gunfire at the time the President was murdered.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 17, 2021, 01:24:04 AM
Please point out where Lee Oswald said that he was outside and heard gunfire at the time the President was murdered.

~Grin~

He said he went outside to watch the P. Parade. Ain't nothing you can do about it, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 17, 2021, 02:38:23 AM
I’m thinking a 5’4” height woman would probably have her  LOS to JFK car blocked easily just by other people as well as that big car carrying the SS standing up.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 17, 2021, 01:03:50 PM
~Grin~

He said he went outside to watch the P. Parade. Ain't nothing you can do about it, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

There is no official report that mentions Oswald going outside at the time of the assassination.
On the contrary, we find this:

"I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not"
                                                                                           Report of Inspector Thomas J Kelley

There is no way you can get away from this Alan.
Not to mention that no witnesses place Oswald on the steps.
In fact, there are witnesses who specifically state Oswald wasn't on the steps at the time of the assassination.

You can wave Hosty's note around all you want. It is refuted by the above facts.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 17, 2021, 01:32:00 PM
There is no official report that mentions Oswald going outside at the time of the assassination.

That's because Agent Hosty's draft report was suppressed

Quote
On the contrary, we find this:

"I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not"
                                                                                           Report of Inspector Thomas J Kelley

There is no way you can get away from this Alan.
Not to mention that no witnesses place Oswald on the steps.
In fact, there are witnesses who specifically state Oswald wasn't on the steps at the time of the assassination.

You can wave Hosty's note around all you want. It is refuted by the above facts.

No, Agent Hosty's draft report exposes the fact that there was a cover-up, to which Inspector Kelley was party. If you weren't a die-hard WC apologist you would have no difficulty seeing this.

Speaking of things you should have no difficulty with, how are you getting on with your important work on The Amazing Lovelady Contortion?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/bf/f7/0T5TmeVt_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 03:51:22 PM
That's exactly what he's doing

(https://images2.imgbox.com/87/8f/lStJS04J_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/98/7d/9BFbKhxt_o.jpg)

Precisely!

Have to admire & respect anyone w/so much to lose to dare to come clean under the intense scrutiny of those truly responsible in this case.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 03:58:57 PM
Setting aside the timing issue momentarily..................

Inspector Sawyer will soon be broadcasting the following on Channel 2:

"Well, apparently, the shots might have come from this building. It's unknown whether he's still there or not. It's unknown whether he was there in the first place."

Let's take each element in turn.....................

"It's unknown whether he's still there or not": This does not sound like a description based on a man seen running out the back door of the Depository. Inspector Sawyer's description would seem to have come from a different source.

"It's unknown whether he was there in the first place": This does not sound like a description based on a man seen firing from one of the Depository windows (by e.g. Mr Howard Brennan). (I am assuming here that "in the first place" means at the the actual time shots were fired.) Inspector Sawyer's description would seem to have come from a different source.

One would very much like to suggest that the true source was none other than Officer Marrion Baker, whose affidavit description of the man caught walking away from the stairway on the third or fourth floor is SO close to the suspect description that went out over Channel 2. One would furthermore like to suggest that Officer Baker mentioned this man to Inspector Sawyer during their brief rendezvous on the "third or fourth floor" (!).

However! What doesn't fit here is that the Channel 2 description mentions that the man was "carrying what looked to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester"....................

Appreciate the succinct summation there, Mr. Ford, well done...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 04:10:37 PM
Two questions.

 Why was the Hosty note about Oswald watching p parade hidden from public for several decades?


 Why is NBC refusing to release the original Wiegman and Darnell films?

 Fred

An astute round of questioning there, Mr. Clements, essentially laying dormant at ground zero of the biggest cover up in American History.

imho only true patriots standing on the right side of history would dare ask these questions.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 04:24:07 PM
Would you agree that "next to me" could literally be in any direction?

Would you agree that there is not enough information to determine (without guessing) why she could not see the car?

Excellent points there, Mr. Iacoletti, there's a strong possibility she couldn't see the car simply because others jockeying their position in front of her blocked her view; and/or perhaps because sunlight rays beamed into the East side of the entrance, where she actually stood (nowhere near PM's position) she needed to blink her eyes several times to readjust her focus but by that time the limousine simply moved beyond her viewing vantage point altogether.

Appreciate you, Mr. Plant, etc. for keeping the discussion grounded in a closer examination of a thorough evaluation as possible. Carry on gentlemen.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 04:32:58 PM
Did not Marina Oswald herself identify the PM figure as Lee?

Fred

An interesting & fair question there, Mr. Clements, since she would recognize the looks & demeanor (stance) of the man she was intimate with since the Spring of 1961 (roughly 2 1/2 years before the capture of PM's position outside watching the P. parade).

I believe--please fact check this in case I'm in error here--that some dedicated researchers w/ties to Great Britain, Australia, etc have reached out to her and she did indeed make a positive identification of her late husband as PM.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 04:34:22 PM
Yes. Somebody blocked her view. Next.

An astute assessment there, Mr. Mitcham.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan J. Ford on March 17, 2021, 04:37:27 PM
I’m thinking a 5’4” height woman would probably have her  LOS to JFK car blocked easily just by other people as well as that big car carrying the SS standing up.

Yet another astute assessment/possibility there, Mr. Mason, she certainly wasn't in PM's position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 17, 2021, 05:43:31 PM
I agree John. It's not "necessarily" the case.
The point I suppose I was making was that Altgens 6 strongly indicates that people stood on the east side of the steps have a clear line of sight to the limo during the initial part of the shooting at least.
It's true that, perhaps at the key moment a person could have sand blown in their eyes so it wasn't possible to see the limo or maybe a pigeon attacked their face making it impossible to see what was going on or maybe....lots of other unlikely possibilities.

Sarcasm always makes such a compelling argument.  Did you learn that from Tommy Graves too?

Or a more likely possibility of one of the many other people crowded up on the steps blocking her view for part of the time. As Alan already pointed out, other people on that side mentioned not being able to see the car when the shots happened for whatever reason.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2021, 01:05:08 AM
Sarcasm always makes such a compelling argument.  Did you learn that from Tommy Graves too?

Or a more likely possibility of one of the many other people crowded up on the steps blocking her view for part of the time. As Alan already pointed out, other people on that side mentioned not being able to see the car when the shots happened for whatever reason.

No doubt Mr O'Meara realizes his gaffe and will retire his silly claim-------------until the next time he tries it on, by which time the hope will be that folks round here will have forgotten how badly it ended for him last time. The intellectual dishonesty is real strong with this one.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 18, 2021, 01:27:02 AM
No doubt Mr O'Meara realizes his gaffe and will retire his silly claim-------------until the next time he tries it on, by which time the hope will be that folks round here will have forgotten how badly it ended for him last time. The intellectual dishonesty is real strong with this one.

The point about Stanton was just one of a few points that you've side-stepped. Just to remind you:

Evidence that points to the possibility of Stanton being on the west side of the entrance steps at some point:

1) Billy Lovelady's CE 1381:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the
Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing
on the top step to the far right against the wall of the
entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository.
At this time I recall that William H Shelley, who resides at
128 South Tatum, Dallas, and Mrs Sarah Stanton, also of
Dallas, Texas, both of whom are likewise employed by the
Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me."

As the President passes by Lovelady has himself positioned by the far west wall of the entranceway. In this clip from the Hughes footage it is possible to make out Lovelady by the far west wall as the President passes by:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyvvksPP/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady is clearly placing Stanton on the west side of the entranceway.

2) Stanton's CE 1381

"...I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqwyXCQS/Altgens6-Corbisr-Crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is clear from Altgens 6 that anyone standing on the east side of the entranceway has a clear view of the motorcade as the shots are being fired. Only someone standing closer to the west wall would not have this clear line of sight. Stanton appears to be saying it was not possible for her to see the President's car at the moment of the shots - "I could not see"

3) This interview with Frazier.

@ 51:10 in this interview:


“...a lady come by and she was crying, ‘cause she had been down by the sidewalk, somewhere down toward the triple underpass and she come by and she said, “They have shot the President”.
And so, Sarah, the lady I was standing by up on the top step back in the shadows...we looked at one another, and we really didn’t have a lot to say, we just listened to what the lady told us…”

Frazier identifies Sarah as being on the top step standing back in the shadows. People on the east side of the front steps are not standing in shadow. Only someone on the west side would be described as standing “back in the shadows.”

In this still from Darnell Frazier is clearly seen but where is Stanton?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tggWS3jc/Darnell-Enhanced-Blog.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Obviously there is Pauline Sanders statement that Stanton was on the east side of the entranceway and in other interviews Frazier seems to indicate Sarah was to his left. The common sense approach to all this evidence is that Stanton moved from the east side to the west as the motorcade approached.

That's exactly what advocates for Oswald as Prayer Man have done. There is not one scrap of evidence that places Oswald on the steps.

You're a fantasist so you should have no problem dealing with these issues just as you did with this image that clearly shows Lovelady's sleeve:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5jkWmKg/lovelady3-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

You insist the details have been added to "create" Lovelady's sleeve in this image yet you claim the purpose of your "impossible shadow" is to hide the very same sleeve.
Don't bother trying to fantasise your way out of the contradiction you've created for yourself here.

I would never accuse you of "intellectual dishonesty" as it has the word "intellectual" in it.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2021, 01:42:06 AM
The point about Stanton was just one of a few points that you've side-stepped.

So you now admit that Ms Stanton's statement that the limo was out of her view when she heard the shots does not-----------as you so energetically insisted-------------put her on the west side of the entranceway? Excellent.

Unfortunately for your mad revival of the garbage Doyle theory, nothing else puts her there either.

I suggest you now move on to your next no-hoper candidate. How about Mr Jack Dougherty? As long as it's Anybody But Oswald, right?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 18, 2021, 02:47:13 AM
So you now admit that Ms Stanton's statement that the limo was out of her view when she heard the shots does not-----------as you so energetically insisted-------------put her on the west side of the entranceway? Excellent.

Unfortunately for your mad revival of the garbage Doyle theory, nothing else puts her there either.

I suggest you now move on to your next no-hoper candidate. How about Mr Jack Dougherty? As long as it's Anybody But Oswald, right?

 Thumb1:

You've dishonestly taken one element I've presented out of context. Each point supports the other. You're avoidance of the other points is noted.

Haven't you got anything to say about the hole you've dug for yourself with the Altgens image?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2021, 10:58:14 AM
You've dishonestly taken one element I've presented out of context.

Nope, you dishonestly took Ms Stanton's statement about the limo going out of view and presented it out of context. You made a fool of yourself!

Quote
Each point supports the other.

Ah, but the problem is that each point can't even support itself

Quote
You're

*Your

Quote
avoidance of the other points is noted.

We went round and round the houses on these garbage arguments with poor mad Mr Doyle. Your revival of his discredited nonsense shows how desperate you are to find an alternative candidate for Mr Oswald. How about you go connect with Mr Doyle on Facebook and indulge your reality-denying silliness that way?

Quote
Haven't you got anything to say about the hole you've dug for yourself with the Altgens image?

I have dug no hole for myself with the Altgens image. You're just trying to deflect from your inability to substantiate your claim about The Amazing Lovelady Contortion in Wiegman.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/9d/0f/JkVqT8k7_o.jpg)

Keep up the poor work, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 18, 2021, 03:09:44 PM
The point about Stanton was just one of a few points that you've side-stepped. Just to remind you:

These points have already been addressed, Dan.

Quote
Lovelady is clearly placing Stanton on the west side of the entranceway.

No he's not.  "Next to me" could be in any direction.

Quote
It is clear from Altgens 6 that anyone standing on the east side of the entranceway has a clear view of the motorcade as the shots are being fired. Only someone standing closer to the west wall would not have this clear line of sight.

You can't make that assumption without knowing why she was unable to see the car.

Quote
Frazier identifies Sarah as being on the top step standing back in the shadows. People on the east side of the front steps are not standing in shadow.

They are if they are up on the landing.  We also don't know when this conversation took place with respect to the Wiegman and Darnell films, or Altgens.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2021, 06:40:22 PM
They are ((in shadow, A.F.)) if they are up on the landing.

Like Mr Mytton did, Mr O'Meara has forgotten about the horizontal shadow
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 21, 2021, 05:15:03 PM

No he's not.  "Next to me" could be in any direction.


I agree that "next to me" could be in any direction.

Lovelady states he is stood by the west wall when the limo passes by.

The Hughes clip shows Lovelady stood against the west wall when the limo passes by.

To me this strongly suggests Stanton has moved from the position Pauline Sanders places Stanton on the east side of the front steps.

Not sure how Stanton can be stood next to Lovelady and Sanders
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 21, 2021, 09:43:41 PM
I agree that "next to me" could be in any direction.

Lovelady states he is stood by the west wall when the limo passes by.

The Hughes clip shows Lovelady stood against the west wall when the limo passes by.

To me this strongly suggests Stanton has moved from the position Pauline Sanders places Stanton on the east side of the front steps.

Not sure how Stanton can be stood next to Lovelady and Sanders

 ::)

Mr O'Meara takes another futile trip down Doyle Lane
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2021, 10:07:00 PM
I agree that "next to me" could be in any direction.

Lovelady states he is stood by the west wall when the limo passes by.

The Hughes clip shows Lovelady stood against the west wall when the limo passes by.

To me this strongly suggests Stanton has moved from the position Pauline Sanders places Stanton on the east side of the front steps.

Not sure how Stanton can be stood next to Lovelady and Sanders

Why couldn't she have been between Lovelady and Sanders just on the east side of the handrail?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 22, 2021, 11:52:52 PM
After the assassination, Mr Lovelady found himself having to look again and again at the Altgens photograph (because of erroneous claims that the 'man in the doorway' was Mr Oswald rather than himself). His memory of relative positions at the time of the shooting was thus set in stone by that image. He confidently pointed out to Mr Dom Bonafede a lady shielding her eyes in that photograph, a lady who he said worked on the second floor. His recognition of this lady in the photograph, who is the person he sees standing next to him to his east, explains why he mentions her in his testimony:

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.


Had Mr Ball not (nervously!) interrupted Mr Lovelady here, he would have named the person "right behind" him as Mr Joe Molina, who indeed appears to be 'right behind' him in Altgens.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4d/69/b95RPugR_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 25, 2021, 11:35:20 PM
Guess the conspirators must have decided the Billy Lovelady in Hughes film with long sleeves wasn’t a problem, or else they missed spotting him.

They’re worried about that Altgen photo 1st print and that bare forearm that is not attached to either Lovelady or the black man.

Apparently there wasn’t much time to alter this 1st print and so they used some quick method of alteration to make the arm appear to be attached to the black man?

Or was it meant to make it appear the arm belonged to Lovelady?

It’s botched up either way as we examine now with our advanced tech Internet imaging devices,

However, 1963, they must have thought the 1st alteration  was good enough to fool most of the people , including Walter Cronkite, and that by the time any tech would be available for mass examination by the public at large, most the conspirators would probably be dead.

On examining the Weigman film later, some astute conspirator noticed Lovelady had his sleeves down and worried that eventually some CT like Mark Lane might actually notice that and also notice the arm was not dark enough to be plausibly belonging to the black man.

So apoarently, it was decided the Weigman film  frames needed to have Loveladys left arm blackened out and then a 2nd alteration to the Altgens to cover up the arm with texture pattern of Loveladys shirt.

Also apparently, the bottle was cut out or airbrushed out and then a new photo taken of this 2nd altered Altgen print to produce the negative that would become the official negative for the next 50 plus years.

And this was apparently missed by thousands of OCD JFK researchers until the end of the year 2020, when one Mr. Ford stumbled across this Walter Cronkite video and saw the anomaly in an extraordinary new way that becomes more apparent and defined as an arm with a bottle in it. Especially with enlargement and highlighting with blinking lights :)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 26, 2021, 07:01:32 PM
Guess the conspirators must have decided the Billy Lovelady in Hughes film with long sleeves wasn’t a problem, or else they missed spotting him.

They’re worried about that Altgen photo 1st print and that bare forearm that is not attached to either Lovelady or the black man.

Apparently there wasn’t much time to alter this 1st print and so they used some quick method of alteration to make the arm appear to be attached to the black man?

Or was it meant to make it appear the arm belonged to Lovelady?

It’s botched up either way as we examine now with our advanced tech Internet imaging devices,

However, 1963, they must have thought the 1st alteration  was good enough to fool most of the people , including Walter Cronkite, and that by the time any tech would be available for mass examination by the public at large, most the conspirators would probably be dead.

On examining the Weigman film later, some astute conspirator noticed Lovelady had his sleeves down and worried that eventually some CT like Mark Lane might actually notice that and also notice the arm was not dark enough to be plausibly belonging to the black man.

So apoarently, it was decided the Weigman film  frames needed to have Loveladys left arm blackened out and then a 2nd alteration to the Altgens to cover up the arm with texture pattern of Loveladys shirt.

Also apparently, the bottle was cut out or airbrushed out and then a new photo taken of this 2nd altered Altgen print to produce the negative that would become the official negative for the next 50 plus years.

And this was apparently missed by thousands of OCD JFK researchers until the end of the year 2020, when one Mr. Ford stumbled across this Walter Cronkite video and saw the anomaly in an extraordinary new way that becomes more apparent and defined as an arm with a bottle in it. Especially with enlargement and highlighting with blinking lights :)

This MAY also offer explanatory context to the remarkable 'misunderstanding' that happened when Mr Lovelady was photographed by FBI on 29 Feb 64. An official report stated that he brought to the photograph session the shirt he was wearing 11/22/63-------a short-sleeved red-white striped shirt

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/0b/82Dnj3XH_o.jpg)

I still maintain there is a real possibility that Mr Lovelady was given Mr Eddie Piper's short-sleeved shirt at that session--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/9b/DXmjt8Tt_o.png)

If only these photos were in color!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 26, 2021, 10:10:42 PM

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.


Had Mr Ball not (nervously!) interrupted Mr Lovelady here, he would have named the person "right behind" him as Mr Joe Molina, who indeed appears to be 'right behind' him in Altgens.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4d/69/b95RPugR_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Footnote! Those who wish to insist that the man I have identified as Mr Molina is in fact Mr Bill Shelley ought to reflect that Mr Shelley himself ruled this out: he told authorities he was beside Mr Lovelady but out of view of the Altgens camera----------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/2f/b0/OCrASpoq_o.jpg)

I believe this is Mr Shelley in the Wiegman film.............

(https://images2.imgbox.com/ea/21/pQdJtknM_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 29, 2021, 08:03:55 PM
This MAY also offer explanatory context to the remarkable 'misunderstanding' that happened when Mr Lovelady was photographed by FBI on 29 Feb 64. An official report stated that he brought to the photograph session the shirt he was wearing 11/22/63-------a short-sleeved red-white striped shirt

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4c/0b/82Dnj3XH_o.jpg)

I still maintain there is a real possibility that Mr Lovelady was given Mr Eddie Piper's short-sleeved shirt at that session--------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/9b/DXmjt8Tt_o.png)

If only these photos were in color!

I still maintain there is a real possibility that Mr Lovelady was given Mr Eddie Piper's short-sleeved shirt at that session--

Yes...if only those photos were in color.....Then we could know what color the buttons are on Lovelady's shirt.....We can see that the buttons on Eddie Piper's shirt are white while the buttons on Lovelady's shirt are NOT white......
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 29, 2021, 09:16:38 PM
I still maintain there is a real possibility that Mr Lovelady was given Mr Eddie Piper's short-sleeved shirt at that session--

Yes...if only those photos were in color.....Then we could know what color the buttons are on Lovelady's shirt.....We can see that the buttons on Eddie Piper's shirt are white while the buttons on Lovelady's shirt are NOT white......

What color do you believe the buttons on Mr Lovelady's shirt are?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 29, 2021, 11:18:18 PM
Feb 29/63 is a bit late to attempt a 3rd edition of Algren since the 2nd edition with Loveladys reddish brown shirt with grid pattern white lines has established a long sleeve shirt Lovelady, obfuscating the forearm image with shirt pattern and white out the dark bottle shape that was Intersecting  a portion  of Lovelady’s white Tshirt.

So it’s doubtful the purpose of photographing Lovelady wearing a shortsleeve vertical stripe shirt 3 months post assassination was some idea to paste the  image into Altgens photo as a 3rd edition version.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 30, 2021, 02:56:22 AM
What color do you believe the buttons on Mr Lovelady's shirt are?

I won't guess.....But I'm absolutely sure that they are NOT white like the buttons on Eddie piper's shirt.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 30, 2021, 07:05:10 AM
Feb 29/63 is a bit late to attempt a 3rd edition of Algren since the 2nd edition with Loveladys reddish brown shirt with grid pattern white lines has established a long sleeve shirt Lovelady, obfuscating the forearm image with shirt pattern and white out the dark bottle shape that was Intersecting  a portion  of Lovelady’s white Tshirt.

So it’s doubtful the purpose of photographing Lovelady wearing a shortsleeve vertical stripe shirt 3 months post assassination was some idea to paste the  image into Altgens photo as a 3rd edition version.

From Mr Dom Bonafede's May 1964 article "The Picture With a Life of its Own"------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1b/8d/wALt7wYd_o.jpg)

This would seem to offer confirmation that the red-and-white striped sport shirt was no 'misunderstanding': Mr Lovelady-----------for some reason------------was told to pretend he'd been wearing it on those steps.

Note also the new "buttoned near the neck" detail........ Was this an early attempt to turn Mr Lovelady into Prayer Man as seen in the Darnell film?

(https://images2.imgbox.com/85/1f/Z1srnBdv_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 30, 2021, 07:08:25 AM
I won't guess.....

No need to guess, Mr Cakebread--------look more closely at the photos of Mr Lovelady!

Quote
But I'm absolutely sure that they are NOT white like the buttons on Eddie piper's shirt.

Well, there's things you're absolutely sure of and then there's things that are true. It's pretty rare the twain meet

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 30, 2021, 02:32:08 PM
No need to guess, Mr Cakebread--------look more closely at the photos of Mr Lovelady!

Well, there's things you're absolutely sure of and then there's things that are true. It's pretty rare the twain meet

Extract your head and LOOK at the buttons.....


(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/9b/DXmjt8Tt_o.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 30, 2021, 09:23:14 PM
Extract your head and LOOK at the buttons.....


(https://images2.imgbox.com/89/9b/DXmjt8Tt_o.png)

Not to mention how the spacing between the dark and light stripes is different.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 30, 2021, 10:35:04 PM
Not to mention how the spacing between the dark and light stripes is different.

Huh?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 30, 2021, 10:56:52 PM
Huh?

Dan's right Alan.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 30, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Was the Weigman film that conspirators saw in 63 , the dark background version in which PM is about 95% obscured?

Or did They have a lightened version that shows PM more defined as in the more recent version in 2021?

IMO, the PM figure may not have been visible in Weigman 1st edition and that’s perhaps why the figure was not blackened out /cut out  in 2nd edition films released for public viewing.

However the shirt Lovelady was wearing is seen in Hughes and Bronson films and is clearly NOT a vertical stripe short sleeve shirt.

Surely the conspirators examined all the films  did they not?

So asking Lovelady to wear a completely different pattern shirt with short sleeves ,  3 months post assassination is  like closing  the barn door after the horse has bolted.:)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 31, 2021, 09:32:48 AM
Was the Weigman film that conspirators saw in 63 , the dark background version in which PM is about 95% obscured?

Or did They have a lightened version that shows PM more defined as in the more recent version in 2021?

IMO, the PM figure may not have been visible in Weigman 1st edition and that’s perhaps why the figure was not blackened out /cut out  in 2nd edition films released for public viewing.

However the shirt Lovelady was wearing is seen in Hughes and Bronson films and is clearly NOT a vertical stripe short sleeve shirt.

Surely the conspirators examined all the films  did they not?

So asking Lovelady to wear a completely different pattern shirt with short sleeves ,  3 months post assassination is  like closing  the barn door after the horse has bolted.:)

And yet here we have Mr Lovelady, in conversation with private citizen Mr Jones Harris a couple of months after the FBI photo session, doubling down on the vertically striped sport shirt claim-------------

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1b/8d/wALt7wYd_o.jpg)

As the FBI report on the photo session, written in March '64, would not have been available to the general public by this point, Mr Harris must have gotten this information from Mr Lovelady himself (along with a telling new detail not found in the report: "buttoned near the neck").
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 31, 2021, 09:45:34 AM
Worth bearing in mind, friends, that when the Prayer Man thing first 'broke' back in 2013 a bunch of Warren Gullibles, not understanding the basics of the issue, offered their instant solution: 'It's Lovelady!'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 03, 2021, 01:24:38 AM
Well! As the motorcade turns from Houston St onto Elm St, we have three Depository people standing together
----------Mr Roy Truly
----------Mr Ochus Campbell
----------Ms Jeraldean Reid

Fast forward a few minutes, and------out of ALL the Depository folk-------just three people will supposedly have seen Mr Oswald just after the shooting
----------Mr Roy Truly
----------Mr Ochus Campbell
----------Ms Jeraldean Reid

Now, if it were the case that these three stayed together and saw Mr Oswald together, that would be one thing. But nothing of the sort--------we are supposed to believe that, out of ALL the Depository folk who might have seen Mr Oswald, it was these three who saw him independently of one another and in three separate sightings.

Quite a koinky-dink, don't you think?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 04, 2021, 08:11:49 AM
I would  like to propose a 3rd place that Oswald might have left his jacket:

The 2nd floor storage room adjacent to the conference room which one would have to enter by using the 2nd floor lunchroom.

I’m suggesting this as a more secure place than the 1st floor front staircase storage room.

Oswald has some items such as a bracelet, a ring, a billfold w/13$ cash (=$100 by current day) and his one and only ID card, and possibly keys to boarding house and room, and a key to Post office box?

Since Mrs Reid’s story is questionable at best , it may be discarded as “improbable”, therefore does not interfere with an Oswald returning to lunchroom to retrieve jacket scenario.

This leaves Baker/Truly and Geneva Hines stories

Geneva Hines MAY have been in the women’s bathroom, as her intention was to find a south side window for which reason she was banging on  2 different office doors. It is  doubtful she gave up on this quest after failure at the 2nd office door and thus she went into the ladies room and was able to see out a south facing window, She could have been 2 minutes or more in that bathroom observing post assassination.

With Baker and Truly, one has 3 choices:

A. Baker//Truly saw Oswald in the front lobby at the front  storage room, and B/T decided to become conspiratorial liars, moving the meeting of Oswald to 2nd floor lunchroom

B. Baker/Truly did not see  Oswald at all or saw Oswald on some upper 3rd or 4th floor, and B/T decided to become conspiratorial liars and moved Oswald to 2nd floor lunchroom for some reason.

C. Baker and Truly actually DID see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom approx 85-90 sec post shots, and the only error on their part was believing the WC theory that Oswald must have just come down the staircase. This option , Baker /Truly are Not conspirators, and are just reporting an observation.


IMO, option C. Is plausible again because Oswald may be PM and PM is returning into the TSBD some 10-12 seconds before Baker enters the lobby , primary reason being to get the jacket containing Oswalds valuable items from the more secure 2nd floor conference room storage room.

The timing of Oswald starting up the front staircase is approx 35 sec post shots which coincides well with Baker/Truly starting a trek from just inside the entrance door at 35sec post shots , to cross the lobby to the 2nd set of glass doors entering the front desk area by Truly’s office.

Oswalds travel time:

18 steps, a mid landing, an upper landing, and opening an immediate door = 20 secs

A 20 ft section of hall, then a 90 degree left turn to a 50ft length hall, then 90 degree right turn to 30 ft hall, then open door to enter vestibule, cross another 6-8ft and open the lunchroom door = 25 more seconds presuming pace approx 4-5 ft/sec.

This at approx 80-85 secs post shots Oswald is passing thru vestibule and opening lunchroom door just as Baker arrives to 2nd floor landing at the rear staircase.


Note 1: the passenger elevator could have been used by Oswald, which would make the meeting w/Baker/Truly in lunchroom NOT as plausible as Oswald would reach vestibule area 25 secs earlier than Baker arriving to 2nd floor landing

Note 2: the passenger elevator may have been on the 4th floor at the time or it was used by someone such as Mr. Williams who may have left his position  just across from Pauline Sanders , BEFORE, Baker has ascended the front steps. Mr.Williams has no statement of seeing a police officer, which seems inconceivable if Me.Williams was literally standing in front of the door.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 07, 2021, 08:21:29 PM
I would  like to propose a 3rd place that Oswald might have left his jacket:

The 2nd floor storage room adjacent to the conference room which one would have to enter by using the 2nd floor lunchroom.

How do we know that's a storage room?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 07, 2021, 08:24:38 PM
Since Mrs Reid’s story is questionable at best , it may be discarded as “improbable”, therefore does not interfere with an Oswald returning to lunchroom to retrieve jacket scenario.

Worth noting that during Ms Reid's WC testimony Mr Belin is VERY interested in the conference room. One wonders what that's all about...............
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 20, 2021, 06:45:28 AM
Buell W. Frazier claims to have seen Oswald near the Elm/Houston st intersection while Frazier remained momentarily standing outside at the front TSBD entrance post shots fired.

Pierce Allman, reporter , claims having seen Oswald in the front entrance lobby.

Both BWF and Allman probably entered the TSBD entrance foyer approx Not later than  2 min 45 sec post shots , since Barnett estimates it was between 2 min 30 secs and  3 min that he locked the front entrance door of TSBD.

There is no conflict with BWF and Allman sighting of Oswald if Oswald is PM as Oswald has enough time to return into TSBD approx 10 sec preceding Baker and Truly entering.

There is even enough time for Oswald to have gone up the front staircase as Baker/Truly proceed via 1st floor trek to take rear staircase, and for Oswald to have been seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom, Oswald returning there to retrieve his jacket
 
If there is no encounter with Mrs Reid and Oswald after the Baker/Truly encounter at approx 90 sec post shots
Then Oswald has enough time to encounter Pierce Allman as early as 2 min 15 sec post shots in the entrance foyer and still enough time after that for Oswald to exit the front entrance door, walk down 7 steps, cross 30ft of sidewalk, and be seen by BWF at Elm/Houston st intersection as early as 2 min 30 sec post shots.


In conclusion, it would appear that the Oswald=PM theory  is the ONLY one that allows Allman and BWF sightings of Oswald to be plausible.

The WC theory timeline for Oswald is immediately interrupted by the Mrs Garner statement per the Belin memo and further elaboraton by Garner of having “heard them” ie: Adams and Styles on the staircase.

Even if Garner could be discounted, the WC theory timeline considers Reid to be a credible witness and the Belin stopwatch time of 2 Minutes post shots as a time stamp, this making the exit of Oswald from 2nd floor office door not until approx 2 min 30 sec post shots if Oswald walked slowly across 90 ft distance (3ft/sec) while approaching Mrs Reid.

The earlier CT theory of Oswald in
The lunchroom or Domino room at time of shots fired, must be discarded due to the Hosty notes of Oswald allegedly stating having gone out to watch the P.Parade. There is no motive for Hosty to have contrived such note as it only aids Oswald, which is probably why Will Fritz not only omitted the Hosty note, but went to great length to discredit Hosty via a supposedly having Oswald denying ever making such statement.

Of course this “denial” by Oswald is not recorded and the public is left to choose whom to believe, Hosty, or Fritz and gang.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2021, 10:22:46 PM
The earlier CT theory of Oswald in
The lunchroom or Domino room at time of shots fired, must be discarded due to the Hosty notes of Oswald allegedly stating having gone out to watch the P.Parade. There is no motive for Hosty to have contrived such note as it only aids Oswald, which is probably why Will Fritz not only omitted the Hosty note, but went to great length to discredit Hosty via a supposedly having Oswald denying ever making such statement.

Of course this “denial” by Oswald is not recorded and the public is left to choose whom to believe, Hosty, or Fritz and gang.

Exactly. This case comes down to two main claims----------

CLAIM A: Mr Oswald was on the sixth floor firing at JFK
CLAIM B: Mr Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade.

The 'investigating' authorities suppressed claim B. The reason why ain't hard to seek!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 08, 2021, 03:08:46 AM
Ironically, if PM is Oswald,  an earlier departure from the front entrance at approx 2:30 post shots such that Oswald was seen by BWF at the Elm/Houston st intersection,  would allow Oswald time to have arrived at 10th and Patton at by 1:06 in time to shot DPD officer Tippit.

Here is the speculative adjusted timeline:

Oswald leaves Elm/Houston intersection at  2min 45 sec post shots (12:33pm)  after being sighted briefly by Buell W.Frazier just before BWF returned into TSBD ahead of DPD officer Barnett closing and locking the front entrance door by 3 min post shots

Oswald goes straight to William Wally taxi arriving there about 6 minutes later at 12:39

Experienced Taxi driver Walley takes only 7min 30 sec to reach location 5 blocks past Oswalds boarding house ( instead of the 9 min time trial  trip by WC less experienced test driver)

Oswald departs Wally taxi approx 12:47

Oswald double-time jogs the 5 blocks in 2min 30 sec (instead of walking time of 5 min) arriving at his boarding house entrance approx 12:50 pm

Oswald takes about 5 min to change clothes

Oswald departs boarding house therefore approx 12:55 pm.

Oswald could therefore theoretically walk “briskly” to 10th and Patton 0.9 mile away in 11 minutes thus arriving there at 1:06 pm.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 10, 2021, 12:57:20 AM
Reminder!

A certain Mr Ken Duvall claimed to have been on the front steps at the time of the shooting.

Here he is in December '63:

(https://i.imgur.com/T3UOtDk.jpg)

And here-------------I'm pretty certain--------------he is shortly after the assassination:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZjTzO93.gif)

And here is another image of him in those railroad yards----------

(https://i.imgur.com/rcHNH9u.jpg)

-----------that gives us a potentially crucial piece of information that the Hughes frames did not................

His shirt was short-sleeved.

Could Mr Duvall be Prayer Man?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 10, 2021, 12:29:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NQoUKoL.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on May 10, 2021, 02:27:37 PM
Doesn't look like Prayerman's hairstyle, Alan.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 10, 2021, 06:14:38 PM
Doesn't look like Prayerman's hairstyle, Alan.

I think Prayer Man's hairstyle is consistent both with Mr Oswald's and with Mr Duvall's @11/22/63

(https://i.imgur.com/ZjTzO93.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/hJfFceA.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/wHBcDcy.jpg)

As I have suggested before, Prayer Man may be standing with arms folded, his RIGHT arm holding a light-colored object that gives the illusion of a left arm.

Mr Duvall (in the railroad yards) has what appears to be a newspaper (or order sheets?) in his breastpocket.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 10, 2021, 11:54:00 PM
In a recent interview on Quorum Radio, Mr Buell Wesley Frazier says the following:

"... they get up on the 2nd floor, and, uh, there's a lunchroom there, and, um, Marrion Baker and Mr. Truly they encounter Lee Oswald-  he was standing there in front of the Coke machine drinking a soda and, um, over on one of the tables was a partly-eaten cheese sandwich and an apple..."

This is a major oops moment from Mr Frazier, with potentially very large implications.........
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 12, 2021, 12:03:56 AM
Mr.Duvall is too tall:)

A 5’9” Oswald stepping down one 7” step might be plausibly 5’2” relative to BWF, but it’s more doubtful for  a 6’ or taller man to appear such

The white object raised to month level = rolled up newspaper? 😆

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 12, 2021, 12:57:57 AM
Mr.Duvall is too tall:)

A 5’9” Oswald stepping down one 7” step might be plausibly 5’2” relative to BWF, but it’s more doubtful for  a 6’ or taller man to appear such

How do you know Mr Duvall's height?

Quote
The white object raised to month level = rolled up newspaper? 😆

No!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 15, 2021, 08:53:32 AM
In a recent interview on Quorum Radio, Mr Buell Wesley Frazier says the following:

"... they get up on the 2nd floor, and, uh, there's a lunchroom there, and, um, Marrion Baker and Mr. Truly they encounter Lee Oswald-  he was standing there in front of the Coke machine drinking a soda and, um, over on one of the tables was a partly-eaten cheese sandwich and an apple..."

This is a major oops moment from Mr Frazier, with potentially very large implications.........

A partly-eaten cheese sandwich and (as Mr Frazier goes on to specify) a partly eaten apple...

Hmmm.... Did Mr Frazier get these highly specific details from--------------

1. Mr Truly (or--at least a theoretical possibility--Officer Baker), who in the heat of the alleged lunchroom confrontation had the remarkable presence of mind to notice these items over on one of the tables?
2. reading the interrogation report that mentioned these items as Mr Oswald's claimed lunch?
3. having himself seen Mr Oswald with these items--a half-finished apple, a half-finished cheese sandwich?

If 1, then Mr Frazier is implicitly accusing Mr Truly (or Officer Baker) of suppressing key information in their testimony
If 2, then Mr Frazier is embellishing what he actually did hear
If 3, then Mr Frazier is implicitly accusing himself of suppressing key information in his own testimony

Remember! Mr Oswald, as we now know, claimed to have bought a coke on two, then gone downstairs to eat lunch, then gone "outside to watch P. Parade".

Remember also! Captain Will Fritz let this slip in his WC testimony: "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--"

Did Mr Oswald take his half-finished lunch, and his unfinished coke, outside to those front steps to catch the motorcade?

If so, is this him in Wiegman?

(https://i.imgur.com/iPzBA8j.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 21, 2021, 12:26:33 AM
Friends, I believe that
------------------Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, an employee who claimed he "went outside to watch P. Parade", continues to be the obvious candidate for Prayer Man, a figure who after nearly eight years continues to defeat the explanatory resources of Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps
------------------Mr Kenneth Duvall is pretty much last chance saloon for Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps (a fact most uncomfortable to those members of TKLODS who have assured us with a straight face that Prayer Man is an obese woman, even though we all know they'd happily identify him as Mr Billy Lovelady if they only could)

Well! A key thing to note about Mr Duvall is that-------as the Hughes frames below show--------he bore a striking resemblance to Mr Oswald...

(https://i.imgur.com/NQoUKoL.gif)

IF it were the case that Mr Duvall is Prayer Man, then we'd have a truly ironic scenario that MIGHT explain why Mr Oswald's claim in interrogation was suppressed and why an impossible shadow was placed down Mr Billy Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film......

(https://i.imgur.com/EgaTrHi.jpg)

On this scenario, the 'investigating' authorities are aware of Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" and, seeing Mr Duvall in the visual record of those front steps but thinking it's Mr Oswald they're seeing, believe that claim. Cue cover-up job.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 21, 2021, 12:29:09 AM
It is also possible, on this scenario, that the figure Ms Carolyn Arnold saw behind the glass front door shortly before the motorcade was not Mr Oswald but-------Mr Duvall.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 21, 2021, 09:18:22 PM
I may have another explanation for Oswald/PM lower height discrepancy
Relative to Lovelady while Lovelady is standing on the top landing level.

It may be that Oswald is standind with BOTH feet on one step level (7”) lower than the.top landing level . The 5’-9” Oswald appears  approx 5” lower than the 5’-8” Lovelady during that moment Lovelady is on that top landing level.

Then Lovelady moves down 2 steps to stand on the same step level as Sarah Stanton, thus she is at that point, right next to” him on the opposite side of the center hand rail.

This lowers Lovelady approx 8”lower relative to Oswald.

And the height of Lovelady relative to Stanton is 4” higher (presuming Stanton is approx a 5’4” height woman)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 23, 2021, 10:12:22 PM
I think Prayer Man may be leaning into the wall.

Flipped image to give our tired eyes a jolt!---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/yF377kk.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 30, 2021, 02:06:11 AM
Another possible explanation for this ridiculous impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/EgaTrHi.jpg)

1. Mr Duvall is NOT Prayer Man, but he is the man whose right hand holding what looks very like a soda bottle shows up in the version of Altgens shown to the American public for the first and last time by Mr Walter Cronkite on the evening of 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/umgFaFo.gif)

2. The original Wiegman film seen by the 'investigating' authorities showed Mr Duvall in this same spot between Mr Carl Jones and Mr Billy Lovelady. (Prayer Man however is right over by the west wall.)

3. Mr Duvall's strong resemblance to Mr Oswald led the 'investigating' authorities, who were aware of Mr Oswald's claim in custody that he "went outside to watch P. Parade", to black out Mr Duvall in those Wiegman frames. They actually believed that what they were seeing was Mr Oswald's alibi. This erasure had the MERIT of erasing 'Oswald's' presence on the steps but the DEMERIT of giving Mr Lovelady an impossible shadow down his left side. But------given the stakes, it was a risk worth taking.....

4. Because Prayer Man in Wiegman was so lost in (natural!) shadow anyway, and because the 'investigating' authorities had mistaken Mr Duvall for Mr Oswald, Prayer Man's significance (i.e. potential danger to the official story) was not even recognized-----------and would not be until folks, years later, started taking a closer look at the Darnell film.

Summary of this scenario: Mr Duvall was indeed on the steps, but so too was Prayer Man-------------a figure whom no one in Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps has been able to offer a credible candidate for!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 31, 2021, 11:25:58 PM
There is nothing to indicate that Mr. Duvall had a bottle of soda in hand while at the entrance steps (let alone evidence Duvall was actually there)
In contrast,  Oswald  allegedly did state having bought a coke just before going out to watch that P. Parade. (If Hosty is a credible witness.)

Except for  Billy Lovelady, the only other probable person on those entrance steps who would be holding a bottle of soda, is Oswald.

It’s quite obvious that raised forearm person holding an object horizontally up to the mouth level (= bottle most probably) could only be Oswald , absent any other further definitive information about Mr.Duvall.

It’s reasonably probable that prayer man is NOT Mr.Duvall.

The bottle with the large white oval shaped label on it ,( photed at the very step where PM was standing ) is reasonable indication that the white object in PMs hand may be that same bottle.

The problem is, however, that the typical 63 coke bottle label was only the fine white cursive lettering of “Coca-Cola” which it doubtful that would register in a B&W camera frame as a solid roundish white blob.

A 63 era Dr. Pepper bottle is closer to the mark, having a larger portion of oval shaped white label, however, the red sold bar dividing the oval , raises question why the camera could not distinguish such contrast.

If the bottle is neither Coke nor Dr.Pepper, then the question is if Oswald did go “out” at 12:00pm and bought himself a 32oz bottle of some sort that does have a particular mostly solid white oval label?




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on June 03, 2021, 05:11:50 PM
Another possible explanation for this ridiculous impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/EgaTrHi.jpg)

1. Mr Duvall is NOT Prayer Man, but he is the man whose right hand holding what looks very like a soda bottle shows up in the version of Altgens shown to the American public for the first and last time by Mr Walter Cronkite on the evening of 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/umgFaFo.gif)

2. The original Wiegman film seen by the 'investigating' authorities showed Mr Duvall in this same spot between Mr Carl Jones and Mr Billy Lovelady. (Prayer Man however is right over by the west wall.)

3. Mr Duvall's strong resemblance to Mr Oswald led the 'investigating' authorities, who were aware of Mr Oswald's claim in custody that he "went outside to watch P. Parade", to black out Mr Duvall in those Wiegman frames. They actually believed that what they were seeing was Mr Oswald's alibi. This erasure had the MERIT of erasing 'Oswald's' presence on the steps but the DEMERIT of giving Mr Lovelady an impossible shadow down his left side. But------given the stakes, it was a risk worth taking.....

4. Because Prayer Man in Wiegman was so lost in (natural!) shadow anyway, and because the 'investigating' authorities had mistaken Mr Duvall for Mr Oswald, Prayer Man's significance (i.e. potential danger to the official story) was not even recognized-----------and would not be until folks, years later, started taking a closer look at the Darnell film.

Summary of this scenario: Mr Duvall was indeed on the steps, but so too was Prayer Man-------------a figure whom no one in Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps has been able to offer a credible candidate for!

 Thumb1:
Perhaps this dark cloud has a silver lining. Mr. DuVall gave an interesting oral history to Stephen Fagin at the Sixth Floor Museum. I was able to listen and take furious notes for the first 15 minutes of a little over 40 minutes of video.

Mr. Ford’s scenario with Mr. DuVall present in the doorway during the assassination brings some baggage with Mr. DuVall’s statements. Key recollections include:

Mr. DuVall was tasked to take two trailers (trucks?) to the TSBD and load books. Two trailers required two drivers. Thus, when he speaks of his actions in his oral history he will use “we”.

At the TSBD dock a forklift driver (Lee Oswald no less) would bring the books to the truckers. About 30 minutes before the President was expected Lee did not bring any more books. Looking for him DuVall and partner “went through a side building” and found Oswald eating lunch. DuVall tells Oswald they are going outside to see the President, and asks if Oswald was going to see him and got a response “Yes, I’m going to see him” and that’s all he said.

“He (Oswald) did not show up where we’s at, he went up to the sixth floor”

Stephen Fagin asks “You saw Oswald here on the second floor lunch room?” (It is my recollection that DuVall gave a hand gesture indicating agreement to the question.  Also DuVall suggested some familiarity with the building but is not very forthcoming). Fagin says okay and the story continues.

DuVall went back inside the building looking for Oswald so they could continue loading books. He says “we can’t find him either”.

DuVall rambles on about Tippet and Ruby for some length until Fagin goes back to before the shooting. Says DuVall “We waited out and sat on the front (3’rd) steps. Big crowd across the street”.

This is now 15 minutes into the oral history but my available time was up.

So back to the silver lining (and under the hypothesis that Mr. DuVall was in the doorway but somehow obscured) - where is his partner? Mr. DuVall’s partner becomes a credible candidate for Prayer Man.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on June 05, 2021, 06:43:30 AM
At the TSBD dock a forklift driver (Lee Oswald no less) would bring the books to the truckers. 
Doubtful. Especially at this late date. Lee's job was filling orders not driving fork lifts.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 06, 2021, 12:21:36 AM
So back to the silver lining (and under the hypothesis that Mr. DuVall was in the doorway but somehow obscured) - where is his partner? Mr. DuVall’s partner becomes a credible candidate for Prayer Man.

Red arrow: Mr Duvall
Green arrow: Mr Duvall's partner?

(https://i.imgur.com/EvcvrWp.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/38hNyK5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on June 13, 2021, 02:46:40 AM
Evidence that points to the possibility of Stanton being on the west side of the entrance steps at some point:

1) Billy Lovelady's CE 1381:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the
Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing
on the top step to the far right against the wall of the
entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository.
At this time I recall that William H Shelley, who resides at
128 South Tatum, Dallas, and Mrs Sarah Stanton, also of
Dallas, Texas, both of whom are likewise employed by the
Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me."

As the President passes by Lovelady has himself positioned by the far west wall of the entranceway. In this clip from the Hughes footage it is possible to make out Lovelady by the far west wall as the President passes by:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyvvksPP/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady is clearly placing Stanton on the west side of the entranceway.

2) Stanton's CE 1381

"...I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqwyXCQS/Altgens6-Corbisr-Crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is clear from Altgens 6 that anyone standing on the east side of the entranceway has a clear view of the motorcade as the shots are being fired. Only someone standing closer to the west wall would not have this clear line of sight. Stanton appears to be saying it was not possible for her to see the President's car at the moment of the shots - "I could not see"

3) This interview with Frazier.

@ 51:10 in this interview:


“...a lady come by and she was crying, ‘cause she had been down by the sidewalk, somewhere down toward the triple underpass and she come by and she said, “They have shot the President”.
And so, Sarah, the lady I was standing by up on the top step back in the shadows...we looked at one another, and we really didn’t have a lot to say, we just listened to what the lady told us…”

Frazier identifies Sarah as being on the top step standing back in the shadows. People on the east side of the front steps are not standing in shadow. Only someone on the west side would be described as standing “back in the shadows.”

In this still from Darnell Frazier is clearly seen but where is Stanton?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tggWS3jc/Darnell-Enhanced-Blog.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Obviously there is Pauline Sanders statement that Stanton was on the east side of the entranceway and in other interviews Frazier seems to indicate Sarah was to his left. The common sense approach to all this evidence is that Stanton moved from the east side to the west as the motorcade approached.

That's exactly what advocates for Oswald as Prayer Man have done. There is not one scrap of evidence that places Oswald on the steps.

You sound like Alan here.
Why rule out Oswald as a potential candidate?
I don't believe Oswald took the shots but I can't say definitively where he was at that time.
It would be amazing if it were Oswald on the steps.
So why not accept it is Oswald on the steps?       

Because there is not one scrap of evidence that places him there.
The question is - How can other researchers place him there?

How do you know it's a man?

This has been beaten to death and yet you have zero evidence for your false Stanton claim.

Buell Frazier has stated on more than one occasion that Sarah Stanton was standing to his left. He never indicated once that she was off to his extreme right. That eliminates Stanton as the phony Prayer Man claim.

Buell Frazier recently confirmed once again that he has no idea who the Prayer Man is. He also said that the figure is not Oswald. 

So, if Frazier was having this long lengthy conversation with Stanton (which you claim was standing in the Prayer Man position to his right) why wouldn't Frazier say the Prayer Man was Stanton? That is something he would never forget. That fact that he doesn't know who the Prayer Man is, confirms the Prayer Man is not Sarah Stanton, otherwise he would confirm it was her if he was talking with the Prayer Man.

This once again proves the Prayer Man is not Sarah Stanton. 

Case Closed.       
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 16, 2021, 09:33:53 PM
Red arrow: Mr Duvall
Green arrow: Mr Duvall's partner?

(https://i.imgur.com/EvcvrWp.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/38hNyK5.jpg)

Friends, thus far I have
------------confidently identified Mr Kenneth Duvall as the man caught on camera by Mr Hughes in the railroad yards several minutes after the assassination
------------tentatively but not unconfidently identified his partner (name unknown) in the same Hughes footage (we see him talking to Mr Duvall).

Now! Mr Duvall claimed he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting. This, however, is one of a number of.................. eyebrow-raising claims he made about that day (Mr Oswald a forklift driver... car driving towards knoll... man in overalls...).

What if there is a core truth to Mr Duvall's story, i.e. he really was at the Depository on a job that day with a partner? The Hughes footage lends strong independent support to this idea. But what if Mr Duvall later sought to insert himself into the big story in a way that involved multiple embellishments?

Well, here's where that line of thought might lead us:

An innocent explanation----------finally!-----------for something startling that Officer Marrion Baker mentioned in his WC testimony-----------something that has bugged researchers for years............

Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


Might not these two white men hanging around near the rear of the first floor have been none other than Mr Kenneth Duvall and his partner?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on June 22, 2021, 04:42:14 AM
I think Prayer Man may be leaning into the wall.

Flipped image to give our tired eyes a jolt!---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/yF377kk.jpg)


It does look like Prayer Man could be leaning against the wall or very close to it. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 23, 2021, 05:43:45 AM
If the those 2 white men that Baker saw were Duvall & Friend, then it is improbable for D&F have been on the front steps as Baker is running to those steps ( as per Darnell film)

D&F would have never made it thru the second set of glass doors , let alone get thru a locked countertop.

They would have been seen by Baker in the front lobby since as per Darnell film, Prayer man is still on the top landing as late as Baker is almost reaching the front steps.

It’s literally only allowing PM about 10 seconds to have preceded Baker into the TSBD lobby and if Duvall is 2 steps lower and beside Lovelady ( hence reason suggested for dark shadow anamoly) then Duvall is following PM and therefore even less likely to get thru a locked counter than PM

Both Baker AND Truly would therefore have seen Duvall and Friend in the front lobby just opening the 2nd set of glass doors or see them THRU the clear doors stuck in front of the locked counter top perplexed what to do next.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Brown on June 23, 2021, 06:23:30 AM
On film....

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"

Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting.  Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps.  If Oswald was not out by the front steps, then he is not prayer man.  If Oswald is not prayer man, then who cares who prayer man was.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on June 23, 2021, 06:07:54 PM
On film....

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"

Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting.  Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps.  If Oswald was not out by the front steps, then he is not prayer man.  If Oswald is not prayer man, then who cares who prayer man was.

The use of logic and facts is wasted on these folks.  If they were capable of using those skills, they would not go down these rabbit holes in the first place.  They are trapped in a circle of lunacy with no off ramp. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 23, 2021, 07:10:20 PM
Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting.  Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps.

Oswald admitted on film that he didn't shoot anyone.  Therefore Oswald didn't kill Kennedy or Tippit.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Brown on June 24, 2021, 04:42:56 AM
Oswald admitted on film that he didn't shoot anyone.  Therefore Oswald didn't kill Kennedy or Tippit.

It's said that you don't understand the difference.

Not my concern.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on June 25, 2021, 01:12:41 AM
On film....

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"

Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting.  Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps.  If Oswald was not out by the front steps, then he is not prayer man.  If Oswald is not prayer man, then who cares who prayer man was.

It's important to establish who exactly the Prayer Man was to end all conspiracies. Especially when a couple of people want to claim it's a 300-500 pound woman with white hair.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Brown on June 25, 2021, 03:14:50 AM
It's important to establish who exactly the Prayer Man was to end all conspiracies. Especially when a couple of people want to claim it's a 300-500 pound woman with white hair.

But why should anyone really care if it is or is not a 300 pound woman with white hair?  It's not Oswald and that's all that matters.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on June 25, 2021, 11:21:18 AM

 Oswald claimed he had gone outside to watch the motorcade. Yet this statement was hidden from the public for decades. Makes one wonder.

 Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on June 25, 2021, 04:35:51 PM
"Oswald admitted that he didn't shoot anyone"

::)

LOL
Tell us how one can one "admit" to not having done something.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on June 25, 2021, 04:51:20 PM
Oswald claimed he had gone outside to watch the motorcade. Yet this statement was hidden from the public for decades. Makes one wonder.

 Fred

Wonder no more. He went outside to bugger off.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on June 25, 2021, 11:35:05 PM
But why should anyone really care if it is or is not a 300 pound woman with white hair?  It's not Oswald and that's all that matters.


Because it ends all the conspiracies and we will finally have a person to place in the blurry image.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on June 27, 2021, 04:08:24 AM
Tell us how one can one "admit" to not having done something.
Easy    I confess...I didn't do it. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on June 27, 2021, 07:33:32 PM
Oswald claimed he had gone outside to watch the motorcade. Yet this statement was hidden from the public for decades. Makes one wonder.

 Fred
No, Lee didn't claim he went outside to watch the parade AT THE TIME JFK was murdered.....  Lee said that he was in the first floor luchroom at that time ( but he didn't hear any shots, ...and went to the second floor to buy a coke at about that time ( Baker and Truly saw him there )  THEN he returned to the first floor , finished his lunch , and THEN went outside to watch the P. Parade.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 29, 2021, 08:24:03 PM
It's said that you don't understand the difference.

Not my concern.

It's sad that you think special pleading arguments are valid.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2021, 01:28:39 AM
On film....

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"

Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting.  Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps.

The enclosed front entranceway is part of the building. It is not some location other than the Depository. And you have smuggled in the word "inside".

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade".

There is only one place that is both part of the building and outside: front steps.

Which is where Prayer Man is.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on July 02, 2021, 03:48:59 AM
The enclosed front entranceway is part of the building. It is not some location other than the Depository. And you have smuggled in the word "inside".

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade".

There is only one place that is both part of the building and outside: front steps.

Which is where Prayer Man is.

 Thumb1:

You can't honestly believe your absurd interpretation of Oswald's clear as crystal explanation? If Oswald was on the front steps, he would say he was on the front steps and especially at a time when he has the World's stage and is basically pleading for his life, why on Earth would he rely on the truth being discovered by a desperate Alan Ford 55 years later? Hahaha!

Btw other Depository staff all indicated that the outside steps were OUTSIDE, why would they say otherwise?

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by


Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".

(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 03, 2021, 11:54:42 PM
You can't honestly believe your absurd interpretation of Oswald's clear as crystal explanation? If Oswald was on the front steps, he would say he was on the front steps and especially at a time when he has the World's stage and is basically pleading for his life,

Why would he feel the need to do that?

Quote
why on Earth would he rely on the truth being discovered by a desperate Alan Ford 55 years later? Hahaha!

Btw other Depository staff all indicated that the outside steps were OUTSIDE, why would they say otherwise?

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by


Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".

(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)

JohnM

~Grin~

The fact that you are going to such efforts here, Mr Mytton, shows how nervous you still are about
a) Prayer Man
b) Mr Oswald's claim in custody that he "went outside to watch P. Parade".

Like I say, there is only one place (other than the roof) that is both outside and part of the building: the enclosed, roofed front steps. Which is where Prayer Man is.

As for the brief exchange with the reporter, Mr Oswald simply confirms that
i) yes, he works at the Depository
ii) yes, he was there, at his place of work, at the time.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 09, 2021, 11:37:16 PM
In the confusion of the hall congestion of reporters asking questions nearly simultaneously, how probable that Oswald could have misheard the question?

IE: “Were you AT the building at the time?

Or: interpretation of “at the time” not specifically referencing to an exact moment shots were fired,  but more generally referring to the motorcade arriving at Dealey Plaza?

As to the question why Oswald is not at every opportunity vigorously stating that he was at the front entrance when shots were fired.

Um..  🤔  it’s a bit difficult...

1. Maybe Oswald did say something which did not get filmed?
2. Midnight conference, Oswald seems to be exhausted , was he drugged?
3. After hours of interrogation, without attorney present, Oswald decided not to divulge a front steps alibi until he speaks with an attorney he can trust?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 17, 2021, 01:24:31 AM
In the confusion of the hall congestion of reporters asking questions nearly simultaneously, how probable that Oswald could have misheard the question?

IE: “Were you AT the building at the time?

Or: interpretation of “at the time” not specifically referencing to an exact moment shots were fired,  but more generally referring to the motorcade arriving at Dealey Plaza?

Mr Oswald was being snippy with the reporter-------I work there, and yeah, I was there at the time of the motorcade, big deal

Quote
As to the question why Oswald is not at every opportunity vigorously stating that he was at the front entrance when shots were fired.

There's a simple explanation:
-----Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he went outside to watch the P. Parade (front steps)
-----Captain Fritz didn't challenge him on this (he knew it was the truth), instead telling him he was suspected of having supplied the rifle
-----Mr Oswald had no idea he was being presented to the world as the actual gunman
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on July 19, 2021, 07:04:07 AM
Evidence that points to the possibility of Stanton being on the west side of the entrance steps at some point:

1) Billy Lovelady's CE 1381:

"At the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the
Depository building heading west on Elm Street, I was standing
on the top step to the far right against the wall of the
entranceway to the Texas School Book Depository.
At this time I recall that William H Shelley, who resides at
128 South Tatum, Dallas, and Mrs Sarah Stanton, also of
Dallas, Texas, both of whom are likewise employed by the
Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me."

As the President passes by Lovelady has himself positioned by the far west wall of the entranceway. In this clip from the Hughes footage it is possible to make out Lovelady by the far west wall as the President passes by:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyvvksPP/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Lovelady is clearly placing Stanton on the west side of the entranceway.

2) Stanton's CE 1381

"...I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time."

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqwyXCQS/Altgens6-Corbisr-Crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is clear from Altgens 6 that anyone standing on the east side of the entranceway has a clear view of the motorcade as the shots are being fired. Only someone standing closer to the west wall would not have this clear line of sight. Stanton appears to be saying it was not possible for her to see the President's car at the moment of the shots - "I could not see"

3) This interview with Frazier.

@ 51:10 in this interview:


“...a lady come by and she was crying, ‘cause she had been down by the sidewalk, somewhere down toward the triple underpass and she come by and she said, “They have shot the President”.
And so, Sarah, the lady I was standing by up on the top step back in the shadows...we looked at one another, and we really didn’t have a lot to say, we just listened to what the lady told us…”

Frazier identifies Sarah as being on the top step standing back in the shadows. People on the east side of the front steps are not standing in shadow. Only someone on the west side would be described as standing “back in the shadows.”

In this still from Darnell Frazier is clearly seen but where is Stanton?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tggWS3jc/Darnell-Enhanced-Blog.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Obviously there is Pauline Sanders statement that Stanton was on the east side of the entranceway and in other interviews Frazier seems to indicate Sarah was to his left. The common sense approach to all this evidence is that Stanton moved from the east side to the west as the motorcade approached.

That's exactly what advocates for Oswald as Prayer Man have done. There is not one scrap of evidence that places Oswald on the steps.

You sound like Alan here.
Why rule out Oswald as a potential candidate?
I don't believe Oswald took the shots but I can't say definitively where he was at that time.
It would be amazing if it were Oswald on the steps.
So why not accept it is Oswald on the steps?       

Because there is not one scrap of evidence that places him there.
The question is - How can other researchers place him there?

How do you know it's a man?

Bill Lovelady saying "next to me" does not mean the Prayer Man position. You're inventing a false claim for your phony evidence. 

It's funny how these Sarah Stanton enthusiasts always want to use other people's testimony, and then fabricate what they testified to, but always dismiss what Sarah Stanton testified to.

Sarah Stanton never placed herself in the Prayer Man position, nor did she ever mention in her FBI testimony that she spoke to Buell Frazier. In fact, she never even mentioned Frazier's name in her FBI testimony. But you, who were never there, have all the answers knowing exactly where you want her to be. That's comical.

Sarah Stanton stated that she immediately went inside the building after after hearing 3 shots and went upstairs to the second floor to look out the window to see what what happening. But then, you and Doyle, make up fake stories of Stanton chatting it up outside on the steps in the Prayer Man position.       

Buell Frazier on several occasions confirmed that Stanton was standing to his left. Never once did he ever say she was the Prayer Man or she was to his extreme right. So, how can you claim she is the Prayer Man?   

In fact, just recently, Frazier again said he has no idea who the Prayer Man is. Wouldn't he have said it was Stanton if she was indeed standing in that Prayer Man spot you claim she was standing in? How could he not know if he was talking to her as you claim? The reason that Frazier does not know, is because Stanton was never in the Prayer Man position and she was to his left as he always maintained. This simple fact proves your theory to be incorrect.

Obviously there is Pauline Sanders statement that Stanton was on the east side of the entranceway and in other interviews Frazier seems to indicate Sarah was to his left. The common sense approach to all this evidence is that Stanton moved from the east side to the west as the motorcade approached.

 :D :D :D

Ok, so now you are just making up your own false evidence like Doyle used to do. Good job and give yourself a big pat on the back!

It's amazing how people like you can just "move" a person from one spot to the next and claim that as your evidence.         

You want Sarah Stanton to be in the Prayer Man position so badly that you invented your own fake evidence. You "moved" Stanton to the Prayer Man position (with her 300+ pounds) when she is always placed on the opposite side by two witnesses. 

Sarah Stanton was identified on the opposite side by two witnesses, you can't move her into the Prayer Man position just because you want her to be there....C'mon man! :D 

That's exactly what advocates for Oswald as Prayer Man have done. There is not one scrap of evidence that places Oswald on the steps.

The advocates against Oswald as Prayer Man (like you) foolishly try to place a 300+ pound woman (who was identified on the opposite side by two witnesses) in the Prayer Man position just so they can eliminate Oswald as a candidate. Even worse, you physically moved her to the spot juat saying "she moved" and claim that as your evidence. Talk about being desperate...that takes the cake!     

You sound like Alan here.
Why rule out Oswald as a potential candidate?
I don't believe Oswald took the shots but I can't say definitively where he was at that time.
It would be amazing if it were Oswald on the steps.
So why not accept it is Oswald on the steps?

Because I base my research on facts and evidence. I don't make up phony theories and invent situations that never occurred to come to my final conclusion. The fact is too many researchers do that, and you're placing Stanton in the Prayer Man position, and your only "evidence" is to just say Stanton "moved". That's absolutely ridiculous and is not serious research.             

Because there is not one scrap of evidence that places him there.
The question is - How can other researchers place him there?

I never said Oswald was the Prayer Man. Some researchers want him to be there and others like you don't. Until we know who exactly the Prayer Man is, you can't make up phony claims like "Sarah Stanton is the Prayer Man" when two witnesses and Sarah Stanton herself never place her there. And you can't claim a 300+ pound woman is the figure of a smaller framed person. That doesn't work which is why Stanton as "Prayer Man" is a joke.       

How do you know it's a man?

The dead giveaway is the part on the right side of the head and the receding hairline. That's not a woman's hairstyle.  And the shirt the Prayer Man is wearing is a man's shirt and not a woman's outfit.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on July 19, 2021, 08:45:47 AM
I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.

You get this impression because Oswald didn't converse with his colleagues?

To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

Are you now placing Oswald in the Prayer Man position?   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 24, 2021, 06:09:47 AM
Why would not Oswald at least tell his brother about the front steps?

Why not tell Marina

If either one or both of above were told, why would they choose not to ever divulge such critical information?

I can only speculate a possible reason that Oswald had intent of not letting such alibi be known (except to Will Fritz )because of some anticipation
of potential high profile attorney representing Oswald, initiating a wrongful arrest lawsuit and monetary settlement once some photographic/film evidence might be discovered.

Other options:

1. Oswald was not PM and chose to lie to his interrogators that he “went out to watch the P. Parade”, then reversed himself and denied saying such statement to those same interrogators.
2. Oswald was a schizophrenic and while one personality knew where he was, the other did not.
3. There Is a near double of Oswald who was the 6th floor shooter , while Lee Harvey Oswald was at the front entrance steps.
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 24, 2021, 02:14:49 PM
Why would not Oswald at least tell his brother about the front steps?

Why not tell Marina

If either one or both of above were told, why would they choose not to ever divulge such critical information?

I can only speculate a possible reason that Oswald had intent of not letting such alibi be known (except to Will Fritz )because of some anticipation
of potential high profile attorney representing Oswald, initiating a wrongful arrest lawsuit and monetary settlement once some photographic/film evidence might be discovered.

Other options:

1. Oswald was not PM and chose to lie to his interrogators that he “went out to watch the P. Parade”, then reversed himself and denied saying such statement to those same interrogators.
2. Oswald was a schizophrenic and while one personality knew where he was, the other did not.
3. There Is a near double of Oswald who was the 6th floor shooter , while Lee Harvey Oswald was at the front entrance steps.

Oswald said he was in the lunchroom when he heard the 'commotion' outside. We LNers reckon he had somewhat loftier ambitions; say six floors worth.

And his brother Robert and Marina thought him guilty.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on July 24, 2021, 02:42:39 PM
Oswald said he was in the lunchroom when he heard the 'commotion' outside. We LNers reckon he had somewhat loftier ambitions; say six floors worth.

And his brother Robert and Marina thought him guilty.

Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2021, 01:00:36 AM
Why would not Oswald at least tell his brother about the front steps?

Why not tell Marina

Because Captain Fritz let him believe he was accused of involvement in the shooting (i.e. supplying the rifle). Mr Oswald had no idea he stood accused of being himself the gunman. Therefore the question of an alibi for the actual shooting did not (he thought) arise.

Captain Fritz asked him in the first interrogation where he was at the time JFK passed the building, and Mr Oswald told him straight: I went outside to watch the Presidential Parade. Captain Fritz soon established that this claimed alibi checked out. From then on he manipulated his suspect into believing he was believed on this score. Smart play from Crooked Fritz!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2021, 01:06:38 AM
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."


JohnM

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on July 26, 2021, 03:13:11 AM
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


 Thumb1:

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; it does.


Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.


(https://i.postimg.cc/BvTmTvx1/ce-497.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V644hHZf/ce-498.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2021, 10:03:40 AM
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; it does.


Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.


(https://i.postimg.cc/BvTmTvx1/ce-497.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V644hHZf/ce-498.jpg)

JohnM

Exactly -- the word 'vestibule' was slyly assigned a sense other than its obvious, primary one (i.e. front lobby). Mr Oswald in custody had used the word vestibule, by which he meant front lobby. The word needed to be made safe, which is what we see Messrs Belin, Baker & Truly doing here.

On 11/22/63 DPD told the world all about where Mr Oswald and the officer and the manager had their encounter: front entrance, just after the shooting. Mr Oswald, without being aware of any of these dispatches to the press, gave the very same location. Quelle coincidence!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 28, 2021, 03:37:43 AM
So Fritz tells Oswald that they’ve checked out his P. Parade alibi and that Oswald need not worry about being charged with murder?

If Mr. Ford’s ingenious conjecture is correct, then Fritz  confused Oswald To such degree that Oswald at the midnight press conference makes that statement “ I don’t know what all this is about” followed up by response to shooting the President with “ I haven’t been charged with that?

So What to make of Oswald the next day in the hallway   recorded on film in a brief moment saying “ I categorically deny these charges”?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 28, 2021, 07:41:55 PM
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; it does.


Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.


(https://i.postimg.cc/BvTmTvx1/ce-497.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V644hHZf/ce-498.jpg)

JohnM

Verrrrry interrresting.....  Thank you Mr M....   So Mr Truly testified that officer Baker was in the vestibule...( area 24)   NOT the lunchroom......when he  ordered Lee to "come here".....   

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Surely you know that Baker testified that he was INSIDE the lunchroom when he asked if Lee worked there.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on July 29, 2021, 12:57:23 AM
Mr. Ball: And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL: What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ: Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL: He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL: With whom?
Mr. FRITZ: With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL: Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ: He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL: Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL: But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ: Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on July 29, 2021, 12:59:20 AM
Verrrrry interrresting.....  Thank you Mr M....   So Mr Truly testified that officer Baker was in the vestibule...( area 24)   NOT the lunchroom......when he  ordered Lee to "come here".....   

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Surely you know that Baker testified that he was INSIDE the lunchroom when he asked if Lee worked there.....

(https://images2.imgbox.com/df/bf/qPtBvRjq_o.jpg)

You sure know how to split a hair. Baker's position as far as he got is "B-2".

    "Mr. BELIN - As you called you say you remembered moving forward
          and. meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with
          the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?
     Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
     Mr. BELIN - After you got there, did you move until the man came up
          to you?
     Mr. BAKER - No, sir.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2021, 11:21:11 PM
So Fritz tells Oswald that they’ve checked out his P. Parade alibi and that Oswald need not worry about being charged with murder?

If Mr. Ford’s ingenious conjecture is correct, then Fritz  confused Oswald To such degree that Oswald at the midnight press conference makes that statement “ I don’t know what all this is about” followed up by response to shooting the President with “ I haven’t been charged with that?

So What to make of Oswald the next day in the hallway   recorded on film in a brief moment saying “ I categorically deny these charges”?

He is categorically denying the charges of a) shooting officer Tippit, b) having involvement in the shooting of Mr Kennedy
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2021, 11:36:55 PM
Mr. Ball: And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL: What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ: Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL: He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL: With whom?
Mr. FRITZ: With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL: Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ: He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL: Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL: But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ: Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

Mr Fritz let the truth slip a little earlier in his testimony:

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

(Note BTW that 'leaving the building' here means departing the Depository building, i.e. going down into the street and away. Mr Oswald didn't leave the building until he left the front steps to go home------------he saw the 'excitement' from the front steps and after that decided to leave the building.)

Thanks to the earthquake revelation of the Agent Hosty draft interrogation report 11/22/63, we can piece together exactly what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz:

1. I broke for lunch and came downstairs
2. I bought a Coca Cola from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom
3. I came back down to the first floor and started eating my lunch
4. While down there I noticed Junior and (Norman) come in
5. I then went outside to watch the P. Parade (I was standing beside Mr Shelley when it all happened)
6. Just after that a police officer came running up into the front entrance etc

In the first official report of that first interrogation (by Agents Hosty & Bookhout), these claims were either fudged or distorted. In the second report on that same interrogation (by Agent Bookhout ALONE), the timeline and facts were completely distorted into the following garbage...............

1. I encountered a police officer and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom (---> post-assassination)
2. I came down to the first floor and ate lunch (---> post-assassination)
3. I then went outside where I got chatting with Mr Shelley (---> post-assassination)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 29, 2021, 11:41:12 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/df/bf/qPtBvRjq_o.jpg)

You sure know how to split a hair. Baker's position as far as he got is "B-2".

    "Mr. BELIN - As you called you say you remembered moving forward
          and. meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with
          the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?
     Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
     Mr. BELIN - After you got there, did you move until the man came up
          to you?
     Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9," 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."
(Officer Marrion Baker, affidavit 11/22/63 - during the taking of which Mr Oswald was brought into office in front of Officer Baker)

The man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was not Mr Oswald. Officer Baker had already met him down at the front entrance (see first press statements from DPD 11/22/63!)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on July 30, 2021, 12:49:28 AM
"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9," 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."
(Officer Marrion Baker, affidavit 11/22/63 - during the taking of which Mr Oswald was brought into office in front of Officer Baker)

The man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was not Mr Oswald. Officer Baker had already met him down at the front entrance (see first press statements from DPD 11/22/63!)

 Thumb1:

Baker wasn't as familiar with the floors in the Depository on the day of the assassination. He had his gun drawn as Truly and he went up the stairs; he wasn't counting stairs or floors. But it was a lower floor; that much he would be expected to remember.

Also, Baker wouldn't lie under oath. Maybe a person of your character might.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 30, 2021, 11:22:28 AM
Mr Fritz let the truth slip a little earlier in his testimony:

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

(Note BTW that 'leaving the building' here means departing the Depository building, i.e. going down into the street and away. Mr Oswald didn't leave the building until he left the front steps to go home------------he saw the 'excitement' from the front steps and after that decided to leave the building.)

Thanks to the earthquake revelation of the Agent Hosty draft interrogation report 11/22/63, we can piece together exactly what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz:

1. I broke for lunch and came downstairs
2. I bought a Coca Cola from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom
3. I came back down to the first floor and started eating my lunch
4. While down there I noticed Junior and (Norman) come in
5. I then went outside to watch the P. Parade (I was standing beside Mr Shelley when it all happened)
6. Just after that a police officer came running up into the front entrance etc

In the first official report of that first interrogation (by Agents Hosty & Bookhout), these claims were either fudged or distorted. In the second report on that same interrogation (by Agent Bookhout ALONE), the timeline and facts were completely distorted into the following garbage...............

1. I encountered a police officer and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom (---> post-assassination)
2. I came down to the first floor and ate lunch (---> post-assassination)
3. I then went outside where I got chatting with Mr Shelley (---> post-assassination)

 Thumb1:

Oswald: I didn't shoot anybody.
Judge Ford: Okay, you can go.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2021, 12:54:10 PM
Baker wasn't as familiar with the floors in the Depository on the day of the assassination. He had his gun drawn as Truly and he went up the stairs; he wasn't counting stairs or floors. But it was a lower floor; that much he would be expected to remember.

~Grin~

Try as you might, Mr Organ, you won't succeed in turning the encounter with the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up into a second-floor lunchroom encounter with Mr Oswald. And Officer Baker's failure to identify the suspect just brought into the homicide office as the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up in the Depository only augments the hopelessness of your enterprise.

And that's before we even get to the fact that the DPD told press 11/22 that the encounter happened at the front entrance, just as Mr Oswald did. Perhaps your explanation is that Mr Oswald was granted access to freshly printed newspapers?

No, in 2019 we received stunning confirmation of what some smart folks had already suspected: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he left the second-floor lunchroom well BEFORE the motorcade arrived, and went outside to watch said motorcade. He never confirmed any post-assassination lunchroom encounter. The chasm between Agent Hosty's initial draft interrogation report's treatment of this phase and the official reports' tells the tale: your heroes suppressed Mr Oswald's claims because these claims were veridical.

Quote
Also, Baker wouldn't lie under oath. Maybe a person of your character might.

Thus Spake the Warren Gullible!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on July 30, 2021, 04:53:01 PM
~Grin~

Try as you might, Mr Organ, you won't succeed in turning the encounter with the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up into a second-floor lunchroom encounter with Mr Oswald. And Officer Baker's failure to identify the suspect just brought into the homicide office as the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up in the Depository only augments the hopelessness of your enterprise.

And that's before we even get to the fact that the DPD told press 11/22 that the encounter happened at the front entrance, just as Mr Oswald did.

If Baker's failure to recognize Oswald precludes Oswald being the man he encountered on "the third or fourth floor", doesn't it also preclude Oswald being the man Baker encountered at the front entrance?

Truly and Baker would have to be in cahoots to lie under oath about the Oswald encounter occurring on the second floor. Also, since the "conspirators" had Baker's "third or fourth floor" affidavit, why didn't they have Truly and Baker lie that the encounter took place on either of those floors; moves Oswald closer to the sixth floor?

Quote
Perhaps your explanation is that Mr Oswald was granted access to freshly printed newspapers?

The "Dallas Morning News" of Nov.23 (with news from the previous evening) reported ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "Police had encountered him [Oswald] while searching the building
     shortly after the assassination. They turned him loose when he was
     identified as an employee".

No reference to the front entrance.

Quote
No, in 2019 we received stunning confirmation of what some smart folks had already suspected: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he left the second-floor lunchroom well BEFORE the motorcade arrived, and went outside to watch said motorcade. He never confirmed any post-assassination lunchroom encounter. The chasm between Agent Hosty's initial draft interrogation report's treatment of this phase and the official reports' tells the tale: your heroes suppressed Mr Oswald's claims because these claims were veridical.

Thus Spake the Warren Gullible!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2021, 01:50:42 AM
If Baker's failure to recognize Oswald precludes Oswald being the man he encountered on "the third or fourth floor", doesn't it also preclude Oswald being the man Baker encountered at the front entrance?

Uh, no-----------the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up was suspicious and hence memorable, the guy at the front entrance not at all.

Mr Baker's affidavit makes absolutely no reference to the all-important fact that the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up is the selfsame man he has just seen being brought in in handcuffs. You can't explain this, can you, Mr Organ?

Quote
Truly and Baker would have to be in cahoots to lie under oath about the Oswald encounter occurring on the second floor.

Officer Baker told the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Afterwards he was pressurized into supporting the lunchroom fiction. He knew Mr Oswald didn't shoot JFK.

Quote
Also, since the "conspirators" had Baker's "third or fourth floor" affidavit, why didn't they have Truly and Baker lie that the encounter took place on either of those floors; moves Oswald closer to the sixth floor?

Super-embarrassing for DPD to admit that their officer made such an extraordinary blunder as to set an obviously suspicious man (caught walking away from the stairway several floors up!) loose.

Also NB!-----the real possibility existed that Mr Oswald's front-entrance alibi would come to light (via e.g. a photo or a courageous witness or three). A story placing Mr Oswald several floors up so soon after the shooting would expose Officer Baker & Mr Truly as liars. A lunchroom story much less risky (physically possible for Mr Oswald to have come up a floor via the front stairs and then gone through the office area or corridor)

Quote
The "Dallas Morning News" of Nov.23 (with news from the previous evening) reported ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "Police had encountered him [Oswald] while searching the building
     shortly after the assassination. They turned him loose when he was
     identified as an employee".

No reference to the front entrance.

Oh dear, Mr Organ, you should do your homework before wading in!

There are multiple references to a front-entrance encounter just after the shooting, e.g.

“As an officer rushed into the building Oswald rushed out. The policeman permitted him to pass after the building manager told the policeman that Oswald was an employee.” (Washington Post 11/23, quoting Chief Jesse Curry)

"Police said that a man who was identified as Oswald walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman “I work here” and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said." (Sydney Morning Herald, 11/24).

"As the Presidential limousine sped to the hospital the police dragnet went into action. Hicks said at just about that time, Oswald came out of the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what all the excitement was all about." (London Free Press, 11/23, quoting Det. Ed Hicks)

Amazing that Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes heard the same story from Mr Oswald. Mr Oswald must have been telepathic!

Here's what actually happened: Officer Baker raced up the steps and, seeking someone to show him the nearest stairway to the roof, asked Mr Oswald (standing by the front door) if he worked there. Mr Oswald said yes, but then Mr Truly arrived and offered to escort Officer Baker. This was later misrepresented as the officer challenging/stopping Mr Oswald.

Officer Baker then met a genuine Person of Interest (not Mr Oswald)--------------several floors up.

All this was known to Captain Fritz the afternoon of 11/22. Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade", and his story of encountering an officer and Mr Truly at the front entance, checked out.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 03, 2021, 02:32:49 AM
Uh, no-----------the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up was suspicious and hence memorable, the guy at the front entrance not at all.

Yes. And on November 22nd, Baker associated that man with Oswald.

Quote
Mr Baker's affidavit makes absolutely no reference to the all-important fact that the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up is the selfsame man he has just seen being brought in in handcuffs. You can't explain this, can you, Mr Organ?

That's the whole reason the encounter (the only one in his affidavit) was mentioned at all. Because as Baker went to give his affidavit, he saw Oswald and remembered him from the earlier encounter. Baker got the room level wrong, understandable given he was never in the building before and wasn't making note of the floor level at the time.

    "Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
          him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
          down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into
          the building and on up what we are discussing now."

Quote
Officer Baker told the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Afterwards he was pressurized into supporting the lunchroom fiction. He knew Mr Oswald didn't shoot JFK.

Baker's affidavit doesn't say the man he encountered in the Depository wasn't Oswald (maybe he didn't know Oswald's name when he made his affidavit). And we have his testimony that upon seeing Oswald, he was compelled to add detail about the encounter. Otherwise, the encounter was of no significance as it was just a workman vouched for by Roy Truly.

Quote
Super-embarrassing for DPD to admit that their officer made such an extraordinary blunder as to set an obviously suspicious man (caught walking away from the stairway several floors up!) loose.

Not at all embarrassing (your semantic gyrations; now that's embarrassing), as Truly vouched for the man. Oswald was unarmed so how was Baker knowingly letting a killer go?

Quote
Also NB!-----the real possibility existed that Mr Oswald's front-entrance alibi would come to light (via e.g. a photo or a courageous witness or three). A story placing Mr Oswald several floors up so soon after the shooting would expose Officer Baker & Mr Truly as liars. A lunchroom story much less risky (physically possible for Mr Oswald to have come up a floor via the front stairs and then gone through the office area or corridor)

Oh dear, Mr Organ, you should do your homework before wading in!

There are multiple references to a front-entrance encounter just after the shooting, e.g.

“As an officer rushed into the building Oswald rushed out. The policeman permitted him to pass after the building manager told the policeman that Oswald was an employee.” (Washington Post 11/23, quoting Chief Jesse Curry)

"Police said that a man who was identified as Oswald walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman “I work here” and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said." (Sydney Morning Herald, 11/24).

"As the Presidential limousine sped to the hospital the police dragnet went into action. Hicks said at just about that time, Oswald came out of the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what all the excitement was all about." (London Free Press, 11/23, quoting Det. Ed Hicks)

Hard to believe early press reports would get something garbled up. How about the early press report of the mortally-injured Kennedy being removed from Dealey Plaza in a bus?

Quote
Amazing that Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes heard the same story from Mr Oswald. Mr Oswald must have been telepathic!

Here's what actually happened: Officer Baker raced up the steps and, seeking someone to show him the nearest stairway to the roof, asked Mr Oswald (standing by the front door) if he worked there. Mr Oswald said yes, but then Mr Truly arrived and offered to escort Officer Baker. This was later misrepresented as the officer challenging/stopping Mr Oswald.

Officer Baker then met a genuine Person of Interest (not Mr Oswald)--------------several floors up.

All this was known to Captain Fritz the afternoon of 11/22. Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade", and his story of encountering an officer and Mr Truly at the front entance, checked out.

 Thumb1:

The Fantasy Island reboot will premiere a week from tomorrow. I take it you're booked. :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 04, 2021, 04:07:25 PM
i) yes, he works at the Depository
ii) yes, he was there, at his place of work, at the time.

Yes, he was also the nut with the high-powered rifle in the tall building who found it not hard to get at a president.

Grin..
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2021, 01:01:39 AM
Yes. And on November 22nd, Baker associated that man with Oswald.

Nope-----the affidavit makes no such linkage. You lose!

Quote
That's the whole reason the encounter (the only one in his affidavit) was mentioned at all. Because as Baker went to give his affidavit, he saw Oswald and remembered him from the earlier encounter. Baker got the room level wrong, understandable given he was never in the building before and wasn't making note of the floor level at the time.

    "Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
          him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
          down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into
          the building and on up what we are discussing now."

The words you quote disprove your claim: Officer Baker tells us here that he went to City Hall in order "to give the affidavit, the statement" about his encounter & the actions of himself and Mr. Truly. Going in to give his statement, he was already well aware, in retrospect, of the likely significance of the encounter with the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up. That encounter was the chief point of the statement he went in to give.

Quote
Baker's affidavit doesn't say the man he encountered in the Depository wasn't Oswald (maybe he didn't know Oswald's name when he made his affidavit).

OK, so all he has to do is say, "I have just seen this man brought into the Homicide Office in custody". Yet he doesn't. You lose!

Quote
And we have his testimony that upon seeing Oswald, he was compelled to add detail about the encounter.

Where in his testimony does he say that upon seeing Mr Oswald he was compelled to add detail about the encounter? Or are you just compelled to make this detail up because your argument is so weak?

Quote
Otherwise, the encounter was of no significance as it was just a workman vouched for by Roy Truly.

Why would a Depository employee have been incapable of being the gunman? Kindly explain your logic, Mr Organ!

Quote
Not at all embarrassing (your semantic gyrations; now that's embarrassing), as Truly vouched for the man. Oswald was unarmed so how was Baker knowingly letting a killer go?

Where are you getting 'knowingly' from, Mr Organ? Learn to read, sir!

The decision to let a man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was a major error of judgment. Again, why would being an employee rule someone out as a gunman?

Quote
Hard to believe early press reports would get something garbled up. How about the early press report of the mortally-injured Kennedy being removed from Dealey Plaza in a bus?

Ah, so now you accept that there were indeed---------contrary to your earlier assertion---------multiple reports of a front entrance encounter!  Thumb1:

And you obviously can't explain Mr Oswald's own telepathic placing of the encounter just there!  Thumb1: Thumb1:

Quote
The Fantasy Island reboot will premiere a week from tomorrow. I take it you're booked. :D

Another weak cope  :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 05, 2021, 01:51:10 AM
Did Fritz add the part about Oswald being surprised by officer with gun pointed at him?

If encounter is at the TSBD front door or just inside the front lobby , Baker hasn’t drawn his gun yet, so Oswald as PM would not likely  have made any statement about a gun

Pauline Sanders would have likely elaborated more detail on seeing officer if some encounter happened right at  the front door if it involved officer with gun drawn?

since Baker states drawing out his gun when reaching the FIRST staircase, there might be a higher probability of an encounter with Oswald at the storage room just beside the front staircase and the passenger elevator.

There is not enough time for PM to get much farther into the front entrance lobby (preceding Baker) than to approximately near the storage room and front staircase, as per the Darnell film showing Baker arriving almost to the front steps and PM can still be seen not having moved from the west corner of the entrance landing.

There is the possibility that PM Is one of the two men Baker states he saw just as Baker entered the TSBD, one being near the elevator and the other some 20 ft away .


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 05, 2021, 05:09:11 AM
Nope-----the affidavit makes no such linkage. You lose!

The words you quote disprove your claim: Officer Baker tells us here that he went to City Hall in order "to give the affidavit, the statement" about his encounter & the actions of himself and Mr. Truly. Going in to give his statement, he was already well aware, in retrospect, of the likely significance of the encounter with the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up. That encounter was the chief point of the statement he went in to give.

    "Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
          him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
          down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into
          the building and on up what we are discussing now."

Since the details of the encounter takes about 15% of the affidavit, I doubt Baker was mainly going to give his affidavit about the encounter. Hardly the "chief point". And in his testimony, Baker says he saw the man mentioned in the only encounter in the affidavit, Oswald.

Quote
OK, so all he has to do is say, "I have just seen this man brought into the Homicide Office in custody". Yet he doesn't. You lose!

Nah. You lose because Baker says nothing about your fantasy encounter with Oswald at the entrance. Instead he sees Oswald and then makes his affidavit describing the encounter inside the building. Direct linkage.

Quote
Where in his testimony does he say that upon seeing Mr Oswald he was compelled to add detail about the encounter? Or are you just compelled to make this detail up because your argument is so weak?

"I saw him when I went to give the affidavit."

Quote
Why would a Depository employee have been incapable of being the gunman? Kindly explain your logic, Mr Organ!

Where are you getting 'knowingly' from, Mr Organ? Learn to read, sir!

The decision to let a man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was a major error of judgment. Again, why would being an employee rule someone out as a gunman?

He's ruled out because Truly vouched for him. Should Baker have let the man go, or shoot the man and Truly? No error in judgment at all. BTW, why would Baker and Truly lie about a second-floor with Oswald when they supposedly had a fourth-floor encounter that would put Oswald nearer the sixth floor? Why would Oswald go along with the encounter with Baker and Truly at the back of the building?

Quote
Ah, so now you accept that there were indeed---------contrary to your earlier assertion---------multiple reports of a front entrance encounter!  Thumb1:

(https://i0.wp.com/www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/D6rGT3MW4AY2_dn.jpg)

You're good at gas-lighting. I suggested to you that early press reports aren't reliable. That's why inquires are conducted.

Quote
And you obviously can't explain Mr Oswald's own telepathic placing of the encounter just there!  Thumb1: Thumb1:

Another weak cope  :)

All we have from you is semantics and showing your gullibility by citing early press reports. Yawn.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 05, 2021, 02:43:09 PM
    "Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
          him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
          down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into
          the building and on up what we are discussing now."

Since the details of the encounter takes about 15% of the affidavit, I doubt Baker was mainly going to give his affidavit about the encounter. Hardly the "chief point". And in his testimony, Baker says he saw the man mentioned in the only encounter in the affidavit, Oswald.

Nah. You lose because Baker says nothing about your fantasy encounter with Oswald at the entrance. Instead he sees Oswald and then makes his affidavit describing the encounter inside the building. Direct linkage.

"I saw him when I went to give the affidavit."

He's ruled out because Truly vouched for him. Should Baker have let the man go, or shoot the man and Truly? No error in judgment at all. BTW, why would Baker and Truly lie about a second-floor with Oswald when they supposedly had a fourth-floor encounter that would put Oswald nearer the sixth floor? Why would Oswald go along with the encounter with Baker and Truly at the back of the building?

(https://i0.wp.com/www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/D6rGT3MW4AY2_dn.jpg)

You're good at gas-lighting. I suggested to you that early press reports aren't reliable. That's why inquires are conducted.

All we have from you is semantics and showing your gullibility by citing early press reports. Yawn.

To OAKers (aka Oswald Arse Kissers) inquiries and investigations are denounced and derided as nothing more than 'excuses', 'explanations' and/or flat-out 'coverups'. I have encountered those very same adolescent conclusions amongst GOP supporters in the political arena.

But what else can one expect from high school drop-outs?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 07, 2021, 05:51:24 AM
What if  Oswald/PM did  NOT precede Baker into the TSBD lobby?

Here’s the scenario

Oswald /PM was observing Baker approaching the front entrance steps and remained in that west corner of entrance landing as Baker runs up the east side of the center handrail front steps and Baker enters the TSBD front lobby area.

PM may or may not have have observed Truly run up the steps , however Truly could easily have NOT noticed Oswald in the west corner.

Oswald waits about 15 seconds longer and then decides he should return and get his jacket from a place in the 2nd floor lunchroom where He had taken it off earlier about 12:15, and where Oswald was seen by. Carolyn Arnold.

If Oswald uses the passenger elevator rather than the front lobby staircase, then there is a plausible probability of an encounter with Baker seeing Oswald either going thru the 2nd floor vestibule zone when Baker /Truly arrive to 2nd floor landing using the rear staircase.

This possible scenario works only if Mrs Reid’s story is either false or a mistaken memory of some earlier encounter with Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2021, 11:11:29 PM
Did Fritz add the part about Oswald being surprised by officer with gun pointed at him?

If encounter is at the TSBD front door or just inside the front lobby , Baker hasn’t drawn his gun yet,

We don't know that--------all we have is Officer Baker's MUCH later claim on it. We may even be seeing Officer Baker already holding a gun in the Darnell frames...........

Quote
so Oswald as PM would not likely  have made any statement about a gun

Pauline Sanders would have likely elaborated more detail on seeing officer if some encounter happened right at  the front door if it involved officer with gun drawn?

Well, this same Ms Sanders also (in the same interview report) thought Mr Oswald and Mr Truly were lunching together in the second-floor lunchroom----------she evidently didn't notice Mr Truly go up those front steps! It is astonishing how few people noticed Officer Baker and/or Mr Truly's run into the front entrance........
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2021, 11:47:05 PM
    "Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
          him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
          down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into
          the building and on up what we are discussing now."

Since the details of the encounter takes about 15% of the affidavit, I doubt Baker was mainly going to give his affidavit about the encounter. Hardly the "chief point". And in his testimony, Baker says he saw the man mentioned in the only encounter in the affidavit, Oswald.

Unfortunately for you, Mr Organ, he says no such thing in the affidavit, which makes a nonsense of your scenario. You re-lose! Thumb1:

Quote
Nah. You lose because Baker says nothing about your fantasy encounter with Oswald at the entrance. Instead he sees Oswald and then makes his affidavit describing the encounter inside the building. Direct linkage.

"Direct linkage", lol. The fact that the affidavit makes no linkage whatsoever between the man caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor and the man now in custody makes a nonsense of your scenario

Quote
"I saw him when I went to give the affidavit."

How does this substantiate your wild claim that in his testimony Officer Baker says that upon seeing Mr Oswald he was compelled to add detail about the encounter? Looks like you made it up. Tsk tsk!

Quote
He's ruled out because Truly vouched for him. Should Baker have let the man go, or shoot the man and Truly? No error in judgment at all. BTW, why would Baker and Truly lie about a second-floor with Oswald when they supposedly had a fourth-floor encounter that would put Oswald nearer the sixth floor?

Already explained, Mr Organ, as you well know:

---------there was every possibility that unimpeachable proof (photographic or otherwise) would yet emerge that Mr Oswald was at the front entrance at the time of the assassination
---------therefore the relocation of the encounter away from the front entrance was fraught with risk
---------said fictional encounter would have to be somewhere that Mr Oswald could conceivably have gotten to after being out front at the time of the assassination
---------hence the second-floor lunchroom encounter was chosen as the location of a fictional encounter

A location higher up would have been incompatible with LHO-Out-Front, thus risking the exposure of Mr Truly and Officer Baker as rank liars

For the same reason, both Mr Truly and Officer Baker were at pains to describe Mr Oswald in the (fictional) lunchroom encounter as not sweating, not out of breath, not agitated------------this needed to be an Oswald who could have come straight from out front and not the sixth floor.

Quote
Why would Oswald go along with the encounter with Baker and Truly at the back of the building?

He didn't----------and his claim in interrogation to have gone outside to watch P. Parade was buried by your 'investigating' heroes (it only saw the light of day, to your and your Warren Gullible pals' horror, in 2019!)

Quote
(https://i0.wp.com/www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/D6rGT3MW4AY2_dn.jpg)

You're good at gas-lighting. I suggested to you that early press reports aren't reliable. That's why inquires are conducted.

The encounter happened at the front entrance, as Mr Oswald claimed, as Mr Billy Lovelady saw, and as DPD told the press 11/22. Then, on the evening/night of 11/22, the encounter was moved to the second-floor lunchroom. The following day, the press were fed the fiction about a second-floor lunchroom encounter.

This is why you can't find a single press reference to a second-floor lunchroom encounter prior to DPD's change of tune 11/23!  Thumb1:

Quote
All we have from you is semantics and showing your gullibility by citing early press reports. Yawn.

You're losing the debate, Mr Organ!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2021, 11:51:37 PM
What if  Oswald/PM did  NOT precede Baker into the TSBD lobby?

Here’s the scenario

Oswald /PM was observing Baker approaching the front entrance steps and remained in that west corner of entrance landing as Baker runs up the east side of the center handrail front steps and Baker enters the TSBD front lobby area.

PM may or may not have have observed Truly run up the steps , however Truly could easily have NOT noticed Oswald in the west corner.

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz about a front entrance encounter. Mr Billy Lovelady saw the encounter at the front entrance. And DPD told the press all about it (until they realized they'd better stop doing so!)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 11, 2021, 03:29:22 PM

Oswald told his interrogators that he had gone out to watch the Presidential motorcade. There is footage in two films showing someone looking like Oswald standing on the steps watching the motorcade. Game over.

 Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2021, 02:33:06 AM
Oswald told his interrogators that he had gone out to watch the Presidential motorcade. There is footage in two films showing someone looking like Oswald standing on the steps watching the motorcade. Game over.

 Fred

(https://i.imgur.com/tB6frRO.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 12, 2021, 10:28:31 AM
Oswald told his interrogators that he had gone out to watch the Presidential motorcade. There is footage in two films showing someone looking like Oswald standing on the steps watching the motorcade. Game over.

 Fred

Quote
someone looking like Oswald

 :D :D :D :D

Quote
Game over.

 ::)

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 12, 2021, 11:42:46 AM

 Sigh. Some people are so determined to keep Oswald away from the steps.

 Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 12, 2021, 01:41:19 PM
Sigh. Some people are so determined to keep Oswald away from the steps.

 Fred

Sigh. Some people are so determined to place Oswald on the steps. Too bad he was placed @Tippit looking like himself.

Slam dunk.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 14, 2021, 12:38:04 AM
In the  Darnell film sequence as Baker is nearing the front steps, PM does not appear to be moving away from the corner yet.

So What did PM do with his bottle

A. Placed it at the steps in the recessed portion where PM was standing, and possibly the bottle photographed at that step.

In this scenario, PM places bottle there just as Darnell film sequence of Baker approaching steps ends.

The encounter with Baker therefore is going to be within 5 secs and that’s virtually at or just  inside the front foyer TSBD entrance door.

B. Oswald keeps bottle in  hand, and moves immediately to entrance door as Darnell film ends.

The encounter with Baker happens 10 seconds later, fully inside the TSBD front foyer/lobby and conceivably Oswald is seen by Baker with the bottle of soda in hand, which later, Baker is compelled to strike out of an affidavit statement , possibly due to Mrs Reid’s statements of seeing Oswald with “Full” coke in hand and in T shirt only.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 14, 2021, 12:50:03 AM
Sigh. Some people are so determined to keep Oswald away from the steps.

 Fred

No, Oswald himself said he was inside at the time, don't you believe him?

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"
Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."


@1:19


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 14, 2021, 07:29:16 AM
The man Baker describes as wearing a “light brown jacket” is in question if the encounter with PM takes place 5 to 10 seconds post Darnell film cut, since PM appears to have the sleeves rolled up.

If Oswald is PM and can get inside the TSBD lobby and make it to the front storage room, it’s conceivable he left his jacket there and could put it on just before meeting Baker in the lobby at the front staircase as Oswald comes out of the storage room.

However, it’s dependent on what time it takes for Baker from his position  at the Darnell film cut  And Baker actually reaching the front steps and how quick Baker ascends 7 steps with people blocking him and if Baker stops on the landing to wait for Truly to join him, before entering.

The distance from west corner of entrance landing to center of an inward swinging front door is only approx 8ft.

Distance from front door to storage room door is approx 20 ft.

30 ft therefore approx max distance / by 5ft per sec pace = 6 sec

Add 3 sec for pushing front door inward and opening storage room door.

PM thus CAN conceivably be IN the storage room and UNSEEN by Baker at the moment Baker enters TSBD lobby thru the front entrance door.

In 5 more seconds Oswald could conceivably have put on his jacket while in the storage room , and exits about the time Baker crosses 15 ft of looby floor , reaches the front staircase , and Baker draws out his gun as he stated “upon reaching the FIRST staircase.

Mr.Truly now enters the TSBD, sees Baker with gun drawn at the front staircase, runs over and sees Oswald and verifies Oswald is an employee.

So in conclusion, Baker and Truly possibly encountered Oswald INSIDE the TSBD and Oswalds statement of being IN the building “at the time” is not necessarily in conflict with Oswald having momentarily stepped “out” onto the front entrance landing perhaps just 30 sec before the shooting started, then returning INTO the building again just 10 sec( or less ) seconds post shots fired.

The only conflict begins when it’s realized that an  Oswald encounter with Baker, by the front storage room on the ground floor makes it impossible that Oswald just came down from 6th floor and traversed 120 ft approx more ground floor distance in only 30 sec fromlast shot fired by theoretical 6th floor shooter Oswald at the SW corner window.

Unless there was a double Oswald😳
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2021, 01:56:39 AM
No, Oswald himself said he was inside at the time, don't you believe him?

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"
Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

~Grin~

Mr Oswald did not use the word "inside". The fact that you need to--------yet again---------put a word in his mouth that he never used tells us just how desperate you are. In his terse exchange with the reporter, Mr Oswald merely confirms that he was at his place of work at the time of the shooting. BFD.

Since 2019, of course, we know that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade". There is only one place that is both in the building (i.e. part of it) and outside------------enclosed front entranceway  Thumb1:

Now! Consider this exchange-----------------

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


Question! What does 'leaving the building' mean here?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2021, 01:59:18 AM
Sigh. Some people are so determined to keep Oswald away from the steps.

 Fred

Their attempts to keep Mr Oswald off the steps are proving as unsuccessful as their attempts to put him up at the sixth-floor window! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2021, 02:14:06 AM
The man Baker describes as wearing a “light brown jacket” is in question if the encounter with PM takes place 5 to 10 seconds post Darnell film cut, since PM appears to have the sleeves rolled up.

If Oswald is PM and can get inside the TSBD lobby and make it to the front storage room, it’s conceivable he left his jacket there and could put it on just before meeting Baker in the lobby at the front staircase as Oswald comes out of the storage room.

However, it’s dependent on what time it takes for Baker from his position  at the Darnell film cut  And Baker actually reaching the front steps and how quick Baker ascends 7 steps with people blocking him and if Baker stops on the landing to wait for Truly to join him, before entering.

The distance from west corner of entrance landing to center of an inward swinging front door is only approx 8ft.

Distance from front door to storage room door is approx 20 ft.

30 ft therefore approx max distance / by 5ft per sec pace = 6 sec

Add 3 sec for pushing front door inward and opening storage room door.

PM thus CAN conceivably be IN the storage room and UNSEEN by Baker at the moment Baker enters TSBD lobby thru the front entrance door.

In 5 more seconds Oswald could conceivably have put on his jacket while in the storage room , and exits about the time Baker crosses 15 ft of looby floor , reaches the front staircase , and Baker draws out his gun as he stated “upon reaching the FIRST staircase.

Mr.Truly now enters the TSBD, sees Baker with gun drawn at the front staircase, runs over and sees Oswald and verifies Oswald is an employee.

So in conclusion, Baker and Truly possibly encountered Oswald INSIDE the TSBD and Oswalds statement of being IN the building “at the time” is not necessarily in conflict with Oswald having momentarily stepped “out” onto the front entrance landing perhaps just 30 sec before the shooting started, then returning INTO the building again just 10 sec( or less ) seconds post shots fired.

The only conflict begins when it’s realized that an  Oswald encounter with Baker, by the front storage room on the ground floor makes it impossible that Oswald just came down from 6th floor and traversed 120 ft approx more ground floor distance in only 30 sec fromlast shot fired by theoretical 6th floor shooter Oswald at the SW corner window.

Unless there was a double Oswald😳

It's also possible Mr Oswald used 'vestibule' in the classical (and Russian?) sense of outer entranceway. Mr Harry D. Holmes' account of what he said is somewhat garbled & ambiguously worded (although perfectly clear as to basic location: front entrance).

The man with the light brown jacket encountered by Officer Baker was several floors up, and clearly not Mr Oswald. I suspect he may have been this (open-neck-light-colored-shirt-wearing ----- cf recollections of Messrs Edwards & Fischer!) guy-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/hpszKqE.jpg)

Cf?
(https://i.imgur.com/fOwU3hu.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 15, 2021, 04:03:43 AM
~Grin~

Mr Oswald did not use the word "inside". The fact that you need to--------yet again---------put a word in his mouth that he never used tells us just how desperate you are. In his terse exchange with the reporter, Mr Oswald merely confirms that he was at his place of work at the time of the shooting. BFD.

Since 2019, of course, we know that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade". There is only one place that is both in the building (i.e. part of it) and outside------------enclosed front entranceway  Thumb1:

Now! Consider this exchange-----------------

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


Question! What does 'leaving the building' mean here?

 Thumb1:

Even though I've demonstrated that not one employee which I previously quoted on numerous occasions described the front steps as being "inside", in fact they all indicated they were outside on the steps, yet you still persist in insisting that Oswald for some unknown reason would think otherwise and let's be frank here, even Oswald would have known that if he says he was on the steps that would have been a perfect alibi?

Watch all of the following video and every time Oswald is asked if he killed/shot the President, all he does is deny but if he was actually outside on the steps he would just simply say that he was outside at the time watching the President and thus beyond all doubt conclusively prove his innocence, it's a total no brainer., well to anyone with a brain that is. *smirk*
Even at the midnight press conference when he has time to prepare some sort of defence and he has the Worlds Press at his command and has the ultimate opportunity to give the perfect alibi, yet when Oswald is again asked if he shot the President all Oswald can muster is that he requests legal assistance and the reason is that he knows that he has no alibi because as we know Oswald was inside shooting the President.
Just ask yourself if YOU were outside watching the President, what would YOU tell the Press when asked if YOU killed the President? Would you speak in gobbledegook and agree that you were inside at the time even though YOU were outside, or at EVERY opportunity would YOU emphatically say I was on the steps watching the President therefore it couldn't have possibly be me! End of line.


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 15, 2021, 04:41:06 AM
Even though I've demonstrated that not one employee which I previously quoted on numerous occasions described the front steps as being "inside", in fact they all indicated they were outside on the steps, yet you still persist in insisting that Oswald for some unknown reason would think otherwise and let's be frank here, even Oswald would have known that if he says he was on the steps that would have been a perfect alibi?

So you put the word 'inside' into Mr Oswald's mouth. Shows your desperation. Thanks for confirming!  Thumb1:

Quote
Watch all of the following video and every time Oswald is asked if he killed/shot the President, all he does is deny but if he was actually outside on the steps he would just simply say that he was outside at the time watching the President and thus beyond all doubt conclusively prove his innocence, it's a total no brainer., well to anyone with a brain that is. *smirk*
Even at the midnight press conference when he has time to prepare some sort of defence and he has the Worlds Press at his command and has the ultimate opportunity to give the perfect alibi, yet when Oswald is again asked if he shot the President all Oswald can muster is that he requests legal assistance and the reason is that he knows that he has no alibi because as we know Oswald was inside shooting the President.
Just ask yourself if YOU were outside watching the President, what would YOU tell the Press when asked if YOU killed the President? Would you speak in gobbledegook and agree that you were inside at the time even though YOU were outside, or at EVERY opportunity would YOU emphatically say I was on the steps watching the President therefore it couldn't have possibly be me! End of line.


JohnM

~Yawn~

Already dealt with, Mr Mytton. Captain Fritz, knowing Mr Oswald had an alibi, pretended to him that he was on the hook not as the gunman but as an accessory. Hence Mr Oswald's lack of interest in telling the world he was on the front steps at the time of the assassination.

Thankfully, however, the coming to light in 2019 of the Hosty draft interrogation report confirmed that
a) Mr Oswald stated clearly in custody that he went outside to watch the P. Parade
b) this claim was suppressed because it was known to be true

Upshot: you lose (yet again)!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 15, 2021, 05:05:34 AM

Already dealt with, Mr Mytton. Captain Fritz, knowing Mr Oswald had an alibi, pretended to him that he was on the hook not as the gunman but as an accessory. Hence Mr Oswald's lack of interest in telling the world he was on the front steps at the time of the assassination.

Thankfully, however, the coming to light in 2019 of the Hosty draft interrogation report confirmed that
a) Mr Oswald stated clearly in custody that he went outside to watch the P. Parade
b) this claim was suppressed because it was known to be true

Upshot: you lose (yet again)!  Thumb1:

Quote
Already dealt with, Mr Mytton. Captain Fritz,....blah blah blah

Pay close attention this time because your inability to understand the basic facts is truly embarrassing, My post had nothing to do with Fritz, all I asked was how Oswald who has the Press recording his every word, how would Oswald defend himself when asked if he shot the President and all the ammunition Oswald has, is to deny, and he even goes on to say that because he lived in Russia he was a Patsy again a lacklustre response from someone who knows he has no alibi, but if indeed he or anyone else on the Planet Earth was in a similar predicament and having the unprecedented platform of being completely accessible to the Press, they would just outright say they had a "perfect alibi" and clearly and emphatically declare that "I watched the President as he passed by the building and if you don't believe me check the cameras or ask my workmates because I was OUTSIDE!"
And I thought that speaking to your childlike brother Alan J. was as bad as you people can get.

Quote
Thankfully, however, the coming to light in 2019 of the Hosty draft interrogation report confirmed that
a) Mr Oswald stated clearly in custody that he went outside to watch the P. Parade
b) this claim was suppressed because it was known to be true

It was written on a piece of paper why would "they" simply suppress instead of destroy a piece of paper that "they" apparently never wanted to see the light of day? Doh!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 15, 2021, 05:31:04 AM
So you put the word 'inside' into Mr Oswald's mouth. Shows your desperation. Thanks for confirming! 

No wrong again, let me repost my original post, I quoted exactly what Oswald said, see Alan the words between the "quotation marks" indicates what was said, I simply paraphrased to make it clearer to people like yourself but the fact that your pathetic unwarranted attempt to discredit me due to your lack of comprehension skills is only a poor reflection of the depths that you will descend to, in your weak continued efforts to defend your absolutely indefensible idiotic conclusions.

No, Oswald himself said he was inside at the time, don't you believe him?

Reporter:  "Were you in the building at the time?"
Oswald:  "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."


@1:19


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 16, 2021, 03:29:05 AM
The WC theory suggests Oswald was suffering from “delusions of grandeur” (DOG) which could be motive for Oswald desiring to shoot the POTUS.

What if Oswald was Not the shooter , and was a patsy, yet nevertheless he DID have this DOG personality disorder?

Could this be another plausible reason for Oswald to not immediately offer his alibi upon his arrest?

The explanations offered in this thread  (IMO)  for Oswald failing to inform the public of his “out front on the steps” alibi as

1.Oswald told Fritz and Fritz told Oswald not to worry, that they were not charging Oswald with any crime just yet. Hence at midnight conference Oswalds curious “don’t know what this is all about” and “nobody has charged me with that yet” statements

2. Oswald is being careful and is waiting until he has a reliable trustable attorney who will find photographic/film evidence. Oswald fears that such evidence might be destroyed if Oswald speaks too early during this period of uncertainty in the investigation.

No.2 is not very plausible if no.1 explanation is true, because why would Oswald trust Will Fritz if Oswald has not been allowed an attorney present during such vital disclosure?

How to reconcile how Oswald could trust Will Fritz, thus Oswald making the P.Parade statement (alibi) per Hosty note, yet Oswald not declaring this alibi publicly to the press neither preceding nor after the interrogation period?

This is were the DOG personality disorder may be an answer.

In the early statements  of Oswald in Hallway preceding his interrogation, due to DOG ,  Oswald is irrationally contemplating how he can take advantage of his wrongful arrest to become famous. Thus he refrains from divulging his alibi. He will wait till getting his attorney. Oswald simply denies shooting anybody and declares he is a patsy


During the interrogation of Oswald , the DOG disorder causes Oswald to let slip just a hint of his alibi being on the steps (P.Parade statement )made in the presence of FBI agent Hosty. Will Fritz once made aware of the Hosty note, then tells Oswald that he is a suspect and will be detained but not charged just yet with any crime.

Oswalds DOG personality interprets Fritz statement as an opportunity and therefore Oswald refrains from publicly announcing his alibi, conceiving his plan to wait until attorney. The the midnight conference is  Oswalds DOG personality to some degree actually enjoying his moment of world viewing publicity, and reassuring Oswald of future fame once his attorney finds the photograph and film evidence before announcing his alibi.

It’s the DOG personality disorder that
Was the  reason Oswald did  not disclose to brother, wife , or mother, of an alibi.

In conclusion, it’s the DOG personality disorder of Oswald that the WC proposes (albeit for wrong reason)that resulted in Oswald miscalculating the possibility that the authority would Simply kill him well before any potential alibi evidence might be discovered at later date.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 01:45:38 AM
Pay close attention this time because your inability to understand the basic facts is truly embarrassing, My post had nothing to do with Fritz, all I asked was how Oswald who has the Press recording his every word, how would Oswald defend himself when asked if he shot the President and all the ammunition Oswald has, is to deny, and he even goes on to say that because he lived in Russia he was a Patsy again a lacklustre response from someone who knows he has no alibi, but if indeed he or anyone else on the Planet Earth was in a similar predicament and having the unprecedented platform of being completely accessible to the Press, they would just outright say they had a "perfect alibi" and clearly and emphatically declare that "I watched the President as he passed by the building and if you don't believe me check the cameras or ask my workmates because I was OUTSIDE!"
And I thought that speaking to your childlike brother Alan J. was as bad as you people can get.

Already explained, Mr Mytton, as well you know: Mr Oswald was manipulated by Fritz & Co. (your heroes) into believing that his claim to have been on the front steps had been verified but that he was on the hook for involvement in the assassination. The fact that you don't have a substantial counter-argument here is not my problem!  Thumb1:

Quote
It was written on a piece of paper why would "they" simply suppress instead of destroy a piece of paper that "they" apparently never wanted to see the light of day? Doh!

The piece of paper was in the possession of Agent Hosty who------for whatever reason-------made a decision not to destroy it. What is on that piece of paper is utterly at odds with what is in the official interrogation reports. The fact that this is an utter disaster for Warren Gullibles like you is not my problem!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 01:51:19 AM
No wrong again, let me repost my original post, I quoted exactly what Oswald said, see Alan the words between the "quotation marks" indicates what was said, I simply paraphrased to make it clearer (~snippety snip!~)

You didn't paraphrase, Mr Mytton, you invented something that never happened: Mr Oswald's saying he was "inside" the building at the time. You need to resort to fantasy here because you're desperate!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 01:56:43 AM

How to reconcile how Oswald could trust Will Fritz, thus Oswald making the P.Parade statement (alibi) per Hosty note, yet Oswald not declaring this alibi publicly to the press neither preceding nor after the interrogation period?

Did Mr Buell Wesley Frazier declare his alibi to the press? No, because he felt no need to.

Same goes for Mr Oswald
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 02:14:17 AM
Now! Consider this exchange-----------------

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


Question! What does 'leaving the building' mean here?

Bumped for Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2021, 02:29:52 AM
Bumped for Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:

Wow, four worthless opinionated posts of regurgitated nonsense in a row, your posting diarrhea in a vain attempt to stay relevant is duly noted. These last gasps of desperation reek. Hilarious!

 Thumb1:

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 02:37:53 AM
Wow, four worthless opinionated posts of regurgitated nonsense in a row, your posting diarrhea in a vain attempt to stay relevant is duly noted. Hilarious!

 Thumb1:

JohnM

~Grin~ You're getting rattled, Mr Mytton, and you don't want to answer the question.

So! I'll ask you it again................

In the following exchange, what does 'leaving the building' mean?

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2021, 02:43:54 AM
~Grin~ You're getting rattled, Mr Mytton,.....

Rattled? You can't be serious? You're the one desperately relying on excessive posts and casting vicious aspersions, not me.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 02:47:47 AM
Rattled? You can't be serious? You're the one desperately relying on excessive posts and casting vicious aspersions, not me.

JohnM

~Grin~

In the following exchange, Mr Mytton, what does 'leaving the building' mean?

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2021, 02:53:14 AM
~Grin~

In the following exchange, Mr Mytton, what does 'leaving the building' mean?

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


 Thumb1:

It's devastatingly clear what is being said but if you want to read some sort of paranoid delusion into what they said, then good luck to you.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 02:56:53 AM
It's devastatingly clear what is being said but if you want to read some sort of paranoid delusion into what they said, then good luck to you.

JohnM

 :D

OK, Mr Mytton, so why don't you devastate me with a simple explanation of what 'leaving the building' means in this exchange? You don't want people to think you're running away from the question, do you?

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2021, 03:01:46 AM
:D

OK, Mr Mytton, so why don't you devastate me with a simple explanation of what 'leaving the building' means in this exchange? You don't want people to think you're running away from the question, do you?

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley.....................


 Thumb1:

I really don't care where your ever increasing bizarre interpretations lead but your continued failure to elaborate on your newest fantasy only demonstrates your complete lack of faith in your own accusations.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2021, 03:23:47 AM
I really don't care where your ever increasing bizarre interpretations lead but your continued failure to elaborate on your newest fantasy only demonstrates your complete lack of faith in your own accusations.

JohnM

~Grin~

So you throw in the towel on answering the question. Noted!  Thumb1:

It is of course devastatingly clear why you don't want to answer the question, because the meaning of the words 'leaving the building' is devastatingly clear:

One has only left the building when one has descended all the front steps and stepped out on to the pavement. Going through the glass front door and standing on the landing or on one of the steps does not constitute leaving the building, although it does constitute going outside. Until one has actually stepped down onto the pavement one has not yet left the building, i.e. one is still technically in the building.

Now for the all-too-fleeting exchange with the reporter:

Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Mr Oswald: I work in that building
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time?
Mr Oswald: Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir


The word inside is not used here. All Mr Oswald is confirming is that he had not left the building.

Now! Had the reporter thought to ask the obvious follow-up, it would have gone like this:

Reporter: Where in the building were you at the time?
Mr Oswald: Front steps


There would have been no logical contradiction whatsoever between Mr Oswald's second reply to the reporter ("Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir") and this (hypothetical) third reply above. He went outside to the front steps and watched the motorcade from there: he did not leave the building, which was his place of work.

Nor is there any logical contradiction whatsoever between Mr Oswald's claim in interrogation to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" and his confirmation to the pressman that he was "in the building" at the time. Indeed putting these two things together yields only one possible location: front steps.

Don't cry, Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2021, 04:29:42 AM
~Grin~

So you throw in the towel on answering the question. Noted!  Thumb1:

It is of course devastatingly clear why you don't want to answer the question, because the meaning of the words 'leaving the building' is devastatingly clear:

One has only left the building when one has descended all the front steps and stepped out on to the pavement. Going through the glass front door and standing on the landing or on one of the steps does not constitute leaving the building, although it does constitute going outside. Until one has actually stepped down onto the pavement one has not yet left the building, i.e. one is still technically in the building.

Now for the all-too-fleeting exchange with the reporter:

Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Mr Oswald: I work in that building
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time?
Mr Oswald: Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir


The word inside is not used here. All Mr Oswald is confirming is that he had not left the building.

Now! Had the reporter thought to ask the obvious follow-up, it would have gone like this:

Reporter: Where in the building were you at the time?
Mr Oswald: Front steps


There would have been no logical contradiction whatsoever between Mr Oswald's second reply to the reporter ("Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir") and this (hypothetical) third reply above. He went outside to the front steps and watched the motorcade from there: he did not leave the building, which was his place of work.

Nor is there any logical contradiction whatsoever between Mr Oswald's claim in interrogation to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" and his confirmation to the pressman that he was "in the building" at the time. Indeed putting these two things together yields only one possible location: front steps.

Don't cry, Mr Mytton!  Thumb1:

No worries but besides your self serving interpretations, you still haven't addressed the elephant in the room, if Oswald was innocent and had the perfect alibi he wouldn't just deny shooting the President, Oswald would use all the ammunition in his defence and at every opportunity would just simply say that he was outside on the steps watching the President.
And when you can give me a reasonable explanation for why Oswald wouldn't escalate his denials and use this Gold Standard excuse then I'm afraid you must be content with possessing just another unprovable lame ass theory.

JohnM

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2021, 05:49:11 AM
You don't want people to think you're running away from the question, do you?

Now that I have manipulated you into spilling the beans, how can any sane person blame me for staying away from your question? which as I predicted would have an equally incomprehensible explanation, I liken it to and the closest analogy is being out in public and being followed by some wild eyed maniac who's babbling incoherently while wearing a tinfoil hat.
Who in their right mind would attempt to have a civilized conversation with this person?

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 22, 2021, 03:04:44 AM
Oswalds “Naturally if I work in that building” without further elaboration defining the most critical detail of “out on the front entrance terrace”, is the problem imo

And this is because this lack of candor about such crucial detail is BEFORE, Oswald has been interrogated by Fritz

So how can Mr. Fords explanation for Oswald remaining silent because of what Fritz may have told Oswald be valid for Oswalds lack of candor before Fritz has interrogated Oswald?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 22, 2021, 07:19:26 AM
Oswalds “Naturally if I work in that building” without further elaboration defining the most critical detail of “out on the front entrance terrace”, is the problem imo

And this is because this lack of candor about such crucial detail is BEFORE, Oswald has been interrogated by Fritz

So how can Mr. Fords explanation for Oswald remaining silent because of what Fritz may have told Oswald be valid for Oswalds lack of candor before Fritz has interrogated Oswald?

Quote
And this is because this lack of candor about such crucial detail is BEFORE, Oswald has been interrogated by Fritz

Not that I have the slightest belief in the ridiculous "Fritz keeping Oswald silent scenario" but wasn't the start of Oswald's first interrogation about 2:25 which wasn't long after Oswald arrived at the Police station?, do you have any evidence that Oswald agreeing with being in the building happened before 2:25?

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 23, 2021, 04:25:07 AM
“When the police car bringing Oswald from the Texas Theater drove into the police headquarters at about 2 p.m. on Friday, some reporters and cameramen, principally from local papers and stations, were already on hand. The policemen formed a wedge around Oswald and conducted him to the elevator, but several newsmen crowded into the elevator with Oswald and the police. When the elevator stopped at the third floor, the cameramen ran ahead down the corridor, and then turned around and backed up, taking pictures of Oswald as he was escorted toward the homicide and robbery bureau office. According to one escorting officer, some six or seven reporters followed the police into the bureau office.80”

Source: The President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection, Warren Commission Report: Table of Contents, Chapter 5

Are not the very 1st questions by reporters shouted at Oswald at this point in time?







Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 23, 2021, 10:40:06 AM
“When the police car bringing Oswald from the Texas Theater drove into the police headquarters at about 2 p.m. on Friday, some reporters and cameramen, principally from local papers and stations, were already on hand. The policemen formed a wedge around Oswald and conducted him to the elevator, but several newsmen crowded into the elevator with Oswald and the police. When the elevator stopped at the third floor, the cameramen ran ahead down the corridor, and then turned around and backed up, taking pictures of Oswald as he was escorted toward the homicide and robbery bureau office. According to one escorting officer, some six or seven reporters followed the police into the bureau office.80”

Source: The President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection, Warren Commission Report: Table of Contents, Chapter 5

Are not the very 1st questions by reporters shouted at Oswald at this point in time?

Quote
Are not the very 1st questions by reporters shouted at Oswald at this point in time?

How do you know that Oswald's "in the building" comment was in the first set of questions?
At the start of that piece of footage @1:03 Oswald says "I'd like to have some legal representation and these Police officers have not allowed me to have any" which seems strange if he's complaining about the lower ranked arresting officers who Oswald must have known really have no say if Oswald is allowed to be legally represented or not?
But to me it makes sense for Oswald after meeting Fritz The Captain of Homicide and Robbery Bureau, to make the "legal representation" statement because he's already spent an hour and half being interrogated by the Boss and Oswald would realize at this stage he would have more credibility because he's spent considerable intimate time with the Police.

One of the arresting Police officers C. T. Walker who also accompanied Oswald to the Police station doesn't recall Oswald asking for a lawyer.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence?
Mr. WALKER. I don't recall. I think he said - I know he was repeating, "I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer.


Whereas Sergeant Hill did recall Oswald asking for a Lawyer at the Texas Theatre but doesn't recall Oswald making any more requests for an attorney on the way to the Police station and Hill speculated that Oswald thought it best to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. BELIN. He had said this in the theatre?
Mr. HILL. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his rights.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station?
Mr. HILL. I do not recall. I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station.


@1:03


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 24, 2021, 01:48:41 AM
Ok, if Oswald has no comments recorded by press cameramen until after 2 hrs of interrogation, then it must be in that early interval of interrogation that Oswald for some reason chose not to publicly disclose his out front steps alibi at his 1st opportunity encounter with press cameramen.

Oswald at some point during the several intervals of interrogation made the P.Parade statement so de facto revealed his crucial alibi (privately)in presence of FBI agent Hosty.

Options (if Oswald really is PM) :

A.Oswald is overconfident that he has an alibi and miscalculates to
not divulge publicly the alibi until securing his preferred attorney to find photo and film evidence to use in a lawsuit later ( fame and fortune opportunity?)

B.Oswald  revealed to Fritz early in the first 2 hr interrogation of his out front steps alibi and Fritz was able to find some initial evidence (Altgens 1st print?) indicating possible image of Oswald “on the steps”.  Fritz therefore reassured Oswald that he was only being “detained” as a possible suspect for Tippet shooting.

C. Some other “authority” such as CIA agent informs Oswald not to speak about alibi until a suspected impersonator assassin has been found and “terminated” in order not to expose CIA “twins” agents program
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2021, 02:54:05 AM
No worries but besides your self serving interpretations, you still haven't addressed the elephant in the room, if Oswald was innocent and had the perfect alibi he wouldn't just deny shooting the President, Oswald would use all the ammunition in his defence and at every opportunity would just simply say that he was outside on the steps watching the President.

I have addressed this question of yours multiple times on this thread. The fact that you haven't been able to rebut my argument is telling!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2021, 02:54:43 AM
Now that I have manipulated you into spilling the beans, how can any sane person blame me for staying away from your question? which as I predicted would have an equally incomprehensible explanation, I liken it to and the closest analogy is being out in public and being followed by some wild eyed maniac who's babbling incoherently while wearing a tinfoil hat.
Who in their right mind would attempt to have a civilized conversation with this person?

JohnM

~Grin~

What a sore loser you are, Mr Mytton!

Your two big defeaters for the Oswald-Out-Front claim have evaporated:
---------------a) the "in the building at the time" exchange with the reporter
---------------b) Mr Oswald's 'failure' to tell the press about his alibi.

What else you got?  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 24, 2021, 02:59:56 AM
Ok, if Oswald has no comments recorded by press cameramen until after 2 hrs of interrogation, then it must be in that early interval of interrogation that Oswald for some reason chose not to publicly disclose his out front steps alibi at his 1st opportunity encounter with press cameramen.

Oswald at some point during the several intervals of interrogation made the P.Parade statement so de facto revealed his crucial alibi (privately)in presence of FBI agent Hosty.

We know that this happened in the very first interrogation. The fact that Mr Oswald did not subsequently yell his alibi to the pressmen tells us that Mr Oswald did not feel any need to yell his alibi to the pressmen. This in turn tells us how Captain Fritz was handling the awkward fact that his suspect had an alibi: he made said suspect believe that he was on the hook for something other than having fired shots at Pres. Kennedy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 24, 2021, 03:34:08 AM
We know that this happened in the very first interrogation. The fact that Mr Oswald did not subsequently yell his alibi to the pressmen tells us that Mr Oswald did not feel any need to yell his alibi to the pressmen. This in turn tells us how Captain Fritz was handling the awkward fact that his suspect had an alibi: he made said suspect believe that he was on the hook for something other than having fired shots at Pres. Kennedy.

 :D :D :D :D

O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive! From an initial Hosty note which I have told you on multiple occasions in no way supports what you think it does, you're now forced to create from absolutely nothing some totally unbelievable narrative which is at complete odds with even the simplest logic, but hey whatever, good luck even convincing the most cynical conspiracy believer who btw have been avoiding this thread like the plague. Hahahahahaha!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 24, 2021, 06:40:23 AM
Not to  cause Mr Mytton to post rolling eyes smileys, but it just occurred to me that if Oswald is PM that there might be yet one more speculative reason why Oswald seemed to be anxious to return to his boarding house ASAP.

Because Oswald heard the shots while on the steps and recognized them sounding uncannily similar to how he remembered his own rifle sounded when firing 6.5 mm ammo.

If Oswald had removed his rifle from
Paines garage in Oct 63 and relocated it to keep it at his boarding room , and Oswald was also aware FBI were surveillmg him, then it’s not so implausible that hearing shots similar to his rifle might prompt a paranoid feeling of impending  “set up” in progress.

Since Oswald theoretically therefore was seeking to leave TSBD ASAP, then if he met Baker/Truly as early as 35 sec post shots at the TSBD  entrance door or just in the 1st floor lobby , then what accounts for Oswald lingering for almost 2 min inside the lobby such that he is able to have meeting with Pierce Allman (reporter) approx 2:15 sec post shots?

Allman was interviewing the Newman’s on the grassy knoll before he traveled To  the TSBD so it’s probable he did not enter TSBD  any earlier than about 2 min post shots

If Allmans story is true, then the timing of Allmans encounter with Oswald coincides  better with a scenario of Oswald having followed AFTER Baker/Truly entered TSBD and Oswald used the passenger elevator to 2nd floor which speeds up his arrival time entering the 2nd floor (from hallway) lunchroom to coincide with Baker/Truly using rear staircase to arrive approx 80-85 sec post shots

Oswald returning to retrieve his jacket from the 2nd floor lunchroom, runs into Baker/Truly 85-90 sec post shots

Oswald leaves 2nd floor lunchroom 15 sec later , ( with jacket on) goes down rear staircase , crosses 1st floor, thru Truly counter top ( left open by Truly) and into the lobby (30 secs travel time)

Total time elapsed: 135 secs post shots = 2 min 15 sec post shots.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 24, 2021, 02:10:26 PM
After the second-floor lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald encountered Mrs. Reid about 12:33. I believe Oswald then encountered NBC reporter Robert MacNeil at the front entrance late 12:33. MacNeil said the man directed him to a phone where his call was logged in at 12:34. It may be in the 12:34 range that the Depository entrance was guarded by police. I wouldn't say the entrance was "sealed off" because Billy Lovelady, for example, was out on the steps having a smoke about 12:45-50.

Allman being the man encountered by Oswald is just a possibility advanced by Gary Mack, who, like Allman, was in Dallas media. Allman and the man who with him had no memory of the man being Oswald. Oswald didn't say there were two men.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on August 24, 2021, 02:20:51 PM
Allman and the man who with him had no memory of the man being Oswald. Oswald didn't say there were two men.

Do we have any account of Terrence Fords movements once he went in the front door with Allman? It seems Allman was on the phone inside alone, so where did Terrence Ford go?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 24, 2021, 08:22:22 PM
Some interesting reasoning, but....

The shots were initially thought by many to have come from (or in the direction of) the triple underpass. Whether Oswald was inside the building or out on the front steps then becomes a non issue and consequently he wouldn't need to go public with any alibi or even sell an alibi to Fritz.

Classic Nutter tactic to invent a need for Oswald to announce publicly a "perfect alibi".

Yes, Lee was not offering any alibi ( I believe that he didn't realize that he was going to silenced so he wouldn't be able to defend himself against the accusations )    However he DID unwittingly offer a couple of solid alibis, and had he been dealing with an honest organization he would have been released from custody on 11-22-63.    Lee told the interrogators that he had seen a couple of fellow employees walk by the Domino (1st floor lunchroom) room as he was eating his lunch in that Domino room.  He didn't know their full names but he told the interrogators that they were negroes, and one was called "Junior" and his companion was a short statured man.    We now know that the men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman, and they unknowingly verified Lee's alibi when they said that they had in fact walked by the Domino room at about 12:26 / 12:27.

It would have been a very simple matter to contact Roy Truly and find Jarman and Norman and check if they had in fact passed by the Domino room just a couple of minutes before the shooting.   Had Fritz done that, he would have known that Lee couldn't have been on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting, and he should have released him at that point. 

The other solid alibi was the encounter with Baker and Truly....   Lee didn't even realize that the encounter was an alibi, when Fritz told him that one of his officers ( Baker) had seen Lee in the building.  Lee acknowledged that Baker had encountered him in the second floor lunchroom.   Had Lee known that the encounter had occurred less than two minutes after the shooting he could easily have pointed out the absurdity of his calm demeanor while buying a coke and had Lee known the shots were believed to have been fired from the sixth floor he could have pointed out that the time elapsed between the shooting and the lunchroom encounter precluded the possibility that he could have been ambushing the president at the time he was eating his lunch .

If the conspirators hadn't lied and distorted the timing of the lunchroom encounter they would have been compelled to release Lee Oswald. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 02:16:58 AM
:D :D :D :D

O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive! From an initial Hosty note which I have told you on multiple occasions in no way supports what you think it does

:D

So Mr Oswald's claim that he "went outside to watch P. Parade" in no way supports the idea that Mr Oswald claimed he was outside for the P. Parade. Yet another desperate Supah-Doopah-Mytton-Claim!

Who said this on 11/22/63, Mr Mytton, and what is your interpretation of these words' meaning?

(https://i.imgur.com/xxZZO01.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 02:21:13 AM
After the second-floor lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly

Never happened

Quote
, Oswald encountered Mrs. Reid about 12:33.

Never happened

Quote
I believe Oswald then encountered NBC reporter Robert MacNeil at the front entrance late 12:33. MacNeil said the man directed him to a phone where his call was logged in at 12:34. It may be in the 12:34 range that the Depository entrance was guarded by police. I wouldn't say the entrance was "sealed off" because Billy Lovelady, for example, was out on the steps having a smoke about 12:45-50.

Mr Lovelady told Mr James Jarman he saw Mr Oswald stopped at the front entrance by an officer and Mr Truly. Just as DPD told the press that day.

Quote
Allman being the man encountered by Oswald is just a possibility advanced by Gary Mack, who, like Allman, was in Dallas media. Allman and the man who with him had no memory of the man being Oswald. Oswald didn't say there were two men.

So not a single person recalled seeing Mr Oswald at the front entrance at this time. Noted!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 02:26:35 AM
Do we have any account of Terrence Fords movements once he went in the front door with Allman? It seems Allman was on the phone inside alone, so where did Terrence Ford go?

Mr Pierce Allman, Sixth Floor Museum interview:

"I... went up the steps of the Depository building and there was a guy in the doorway and I ran up to him and asked him where a phone was, and he jerked his thumb and said 'In there'. I thanked him and went on in."

Mr Oswald was twice asked for directions at the front entrance-----------first by Officer Baker, then by (IMO) Mr Allman
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 02:29:29 AM
Oswald encountered Mrs. Reid about 12:33

Highly unlikely, based on the available evidence.

Correct. It beggars belief that the only three Depository people who would talk about seeing Mr Oswald just after the shooting would be three people who had watched the P. Parade in each other's company-------------Mr Truly, Mr Campbell, Ms Reid.

Ms Reid lied at the behest of Mr Truly.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 02:44:43 AM
Captain Will Fritz let the truth slip in his WC testimony:

Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement

That describes Prayer Man, a figure standing in the doorway along with some of the employees-------------and a figure in the doorway who appears to be eating lunch................................

(https://i.imgur.com/DZ0e40h.jpg)

Oh, and did I mention that Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps has, after 8 angst-ridden years, yet to come up with a single credible alternative candidate for Prayer Man?

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he went outside to watch P. Parade. He was telling the truth, and that truth blasts to smithereens the fantasy world in which all the Warren Gullibles have spent all these years living!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 06:00:26 PM
Mr Pierce Allman #1:

And then I turned around, ran back down the hill, ran up the sidewalk, went into the depository building, asked the guy where the phone was, went inside, got on the phone

Mr Pierce Allman #2:

I... went up the steps of the Depository building and there was a guy in the doorway and I ran up to him and asked him where a phone was, and he jerked his thumb and said 'In there'. I thanked him and went on in.


Statements #1 and #2 are describing the exact same event!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 26, 2021, 06:27:42 PM
Mr Pierce Allman #1:

And then I turned around, ran back down the hill, ran up the sidewalk, went into the depository building, asked the guy where the phone was, went inside, got on the phone

Mr Pierce Allman #2:

I... went up the steps of the Depository building and there was a guy in the doorway and I ran up to him and asked him where a phone was, and he jerked his thumb and said 'In there'. I thanked him and went on in.


Statements #1 and #2 are describing the exact same event!  Thumb1:

    "All for now gentlemen, back later this week to reengage. Best wishes to all to
     remain well, healthy & safe, free of any potential exposure to any COVID-19
     variants still lingering about."

Who -- in the history of the Forum -- proclaimed a one-day absence like that?   ::)

What a narcissist.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2021, 06:59:32 PM
    "All for now gentlemen, back later this week to reengage. Best wishes to all to
     remain well, healthy & safe, free of any potential exposure to any COVID-19
     variants still lingering about."

Who -- in the history of the Forum -- proclaimed a one-day absence like that?   ::)

What a narcissist.

 :D

The one where Mr Organ shows
a) that I've rattled him
b) his usual sovereign command of detail!

(Clue for Mr Organ: J)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 27, 2021, 01:17:28 AM
    "All for now gentlemen, back later this week to reengage. Best wishes to all to
     remain well, healthy & safe, free of any potential exposure to any COVID-19
     variants still lingering about."
     Alan Ford

Who -- in the history of the Forum -- proclaimed a one-day absence like that?   ::)

What a narcissist.

(https://c.tenor.com/-VzmsN1Vx5EAAAAM/cute-emoji.gif)

Back later this week to reengage, listen & learn.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 27, 2021, 01:52:25 AM
It's getting crowded at the bottom of the LN barrel....  Thumb1:

Yep. The desperate squirmings and evasions of Messrs Mytton and Organ in recent posts are most telling....... The Warren Gullibles are in trouble, and they know it.

-"But Oswald himself never put himself out front for the motorcade" - DEBUNKED!

-"But Oswald himself said he was inside the building at the time of the assassination" - DEBUNKED!

-"But Oswald merely said he went outside in the hope of watching the P. Parade" - DEBUNKED!

-"But Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton" - DEBUNKED!

-"But the shadow down Billy Lovelady is a natural shadow" - DEBUNKED!

-"But Oswald's not telling the press about his alibi proves he had no alibi" - DEBUNKED!

-"But Oswald was seen in the second-floor lunchroom just after the shooting" - DEBUNKED!

-"But Mrs Reid told co-workers within an hour of so of the shooting about seeing Oswald in the second-floor office area" - DEBUNKED!

-"But a lunchroom hoax makes no sense because they could have just put the encounter higher up in the building" - DEBUNKED!

-"The fact that no one on the front steps at the time of the shooting said afterwards that they saw Oswald there proves he wasn't there" - DEBUNKED!

-"The coincidence between what Oswald claimed about the cop encounter at the front entrance and what DPD told press 11/22 and what Billy Lovelady told James Jarman is just that: a coincidence" - LAUGHED OUT OF COURT!

All told, things are looking pretty grim for Team Keep LHO Away From Dem Steps!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 28, 2021, 02:01:11 AM
Imo it’s possible that the meeting of Allman with Oswald occurrd at approx 2 min 15 secs post shots which allows that Oswald could have Followed after Baker and Truly have entered the TSBD at 35 sec post shots.

It’s dependent on if the passenger elevator was still operational ( power not cut yet) and if it was on the 1st floor.

If so, Oswald enters 15 secs behind Baker/Truly into TSBD lobby and as Baker/Truly are inside 2nd set of doors and focused on Truly getting thru the counter top , Oswald crosses floor unnoticed , reaches the passenger elevator on the 1st floor , takes it to 2nd floor.

The timing therefore Oswald exiting passenger elevator is approx 65 sec post shots, which then if Oswald goes down 50 ft hallway then 30 ft hallway at approx 5ft/sec pace would coincide with passing thru the Vestibule And opening 2nd floor lunchroom door approx 85 sec post shots. That coincides with approx rime of Baker/Truly arriving on 2nd floor landing using the rear staircase

15 secs of encounter with B/T and Oswald puts on his jacket from where in the lunchroom or closer he had taken it off when he was in the Lunchroom at 12:15 ( see by Carolyn
Arnold).

Oswald exits 2nd Fluor lunchroom approx 105 secs post shots  goes down rear staircase, (10 sec ) crosses 1st floor diagonally towards Truly front desk area. (10 sec )goes thru counter top (probably left open by Truly ) , (5 sec)crosses front lobby floor (10 sec) and exits front entrance door at approx 140 secs post shots or approx 2 min 20 sec post shots

This may be about  right for Alllman meeting Oswald at the steps if Allmans Interview with Newman’s on the GK took approx 1 min 30 secs




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 28, 2021, 03:58:10 AM
Imo it’s possible that the meeting of Allman with Oswald occurrd at approx 2 min 15 secs post shots which allows that Oswald could have Followed after Baker and Truly have entered the TSBD at 35 sec post shots.

It’s dependent on if the passenger elevator was still operational ( power not cut yet) and if it was on the 1st floor.

If so, Oswald enters 15 secs behind Baker/Truly into TSBD lobby and as Baker/Truly are inside 2nd set of doors and focused on Truly getting thru the counter top , Oswald crosses floor unnoticed , reaches the passenger elevator on the 1st floor , takes it to 2nd floor.

The timing therefore Oswald exiting passenger elevator is approx 65 sec post shots, which then if Oswald goes down 50 ft hallway then 30 ft hallway at approx 5ft/sec pace would coincide with passing thru the Vestibule And opening 2nd floor lunchroom door approx 85 sec post shots. That coincides with approx rime of Baker/Truly arriving on 2nd floor landing using the rear staircase

15 secs of encounter with B/T and Oswald puts on his jacket from where in the lunchroom or closer he had taken it off when he was in the Lunchroom at 12:15 ( see by Carolyn
Arnold).

Oswald exits 2nd Fluor lunchroom approx 105 secs post shots  goes down rear staircase, (10 sec ) crosses 1st floor diagonally towards Truly front desk area. (10 sec )goes thru counter top (probably left open by Truly ) , (5 sec)crosses front lobby floor (10 sec) and exits front entrance door at approx 140 secs post shots or approx 2 min 20 sec post shots

This may be about  right for Alllman meeting Oswald at the steps if Allmans Interview with Newman’s on the GK took approx 1 min 30 secs

Once again, there was no encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom. Their encounter took place at the front entrance, as claimed by Mr Oswald, witnessed by Mr Lovelady and reported that day by DPD. Officer Baker and Mr Truly had another, much more significant encounter several floors up when Officer Baker caught a man wearing a light brown jacket (not Mr Oswald, of course) walking away from the rear stairway.

We know from Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report what Mr Oswald really claimed:
--------Visit to 2nd floor lunchroom to buy a coke BEFORE motorcade
--------Return to 1st floor
--------Then went outside to watch P. Parade.

The fact that the bogus ~official~ story of what Mr Oswald said (solo Bookhout report) would be that the officer came into the 2nd floor lunchroom at the time Mr Oswald was buying a coke gives the game away: it is so completely at odds timewise with what is in the earlier Hosty draft report as to tell us that Mr Oswald never said anything about any 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. All he talked about was an incident-free pre-motorcade visit to the lunchroom to buy a coke. The whole lunchroom encounter was a fabrication by the 'investigating' authorities designed to bury the location of the true encounter (front entrance)----------and explain away the encounter with the man caught walking away from the rear stairs several floors up. Just as Mr Oswald's claim to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade had to be buried for the simple reason that it was known to be veracious.

The decades-long argument between Warren Gullibles and CTs over the implications of the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter is, in short, an argument over something that never happened. A complete waste of time. As is any attempt to reconcile LHO-as-PM with the supposed 2nd floor lunchroom encounter.

Likewise, Ms Reid's story of seeing Mr Oswald with a FULL bottle of coke in his hand just after the shooting is exposed as a lie (unless one wants to resort to the silly idea that Mr Oswald went up and bought a SECOND coke just after the shooting).

Understanding that the the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter is a fictional event is ESSENTIAL to understanding the shocking story of how Mr Oswald's factual alibi was nixed.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 28, 2021, 04:45:14 AM
Well if it’s a CERTAIN fact that the CE 163 blue jacket was found in the Domino room a month after the assassination, then I could dismiss the plausibility of a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter entirely on the grounds there’s really NO reason left for Oswald(PM) to have ever gone back up there. He wouldn’t have bothered Imo to return his coke bottle either, which is why that bottle at the steps right where PM is standing, may be that bottle.

Thens it’s a matter of a meeting with Allman occurring about just after meeting Baker/Truly at 35 sec post shots.

If it’s about a 20 sec interval of meeting part of which is about 5 sec or more for Truly to move up the steps to join Truly, then it can work out with Allman meeting Oswald as early as 60 secs post shots pertaining IF the interview of Newman’s was only 30 sec and IF the total distance of ground traversed is approx 250 ft.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 28, 2021, 12:05:43 PM
From the Henry Wade late night conference...at 3:34, not in a lunch room but "saw this man...in a corner". He then talks nonsense about the defendant missing although the manager just cleared him. This stuff has been stitched together hurriedly.


 Thumb1:

4:07 Next we hear of him where he got on a bus on at Lamar street.

4:47 He caught a taxi cab



JohnM

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on August 28, 2021, 02:07:50 PM
You have the name of the cab driver?

Not only did I destroy you, I obliterated you, now be a good boy and go and play in the traffic. LOLOLOLOL!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 28, 2021, 07:32:19 PM
Well if it’s a CERTAIN fact that the CE 163 blue jacket was found in the Domino room a month after the assassination, then I could dismiss the plausibility of a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter entirely on the grounds there’s really NO reason left for Oswald(PM) to have ever gone back up there. He wouldn’t have bothered Imo to return his coke bottle either, which is why that bottle at the steps right where PM is standing, may be that bottle.

Thens it’s a matter of a meeting with Allman occurring about just after meeting Baker/Truly at 35 sec post shots.

If it’s about a 20 sec interval of meeting part of which is about 5 sec or more for Truly to move up the steps to join Truly, then it can work out with Allman meeting Oswald as early as 60 secs post shots pertaining IF the interview of Newman’s was only 30 sec and IF the total distance of ground traversed is approx 250 ft.

Why can't Mr Oswald have simply lingered at the front entrance for a couple of minutes after the shooting, as others did?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 28, 2021, 07:33:47 PM
From the Henry Wade late night conference...at 3:34, not in a lunch room but "saw this man...in a corner".

He may actually be talking here about the west corner of the doorway
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 28, 2021, 08:07:44 PM
It is 2pm. Mr Oswald (blue arrow) has just been brought into the Homicide Office. Behind the door the officer is about to open (purple arrow) is Mr Bill Shelley, who is giving his first affidavit statement.

(https://i.imgur.com/1srrjU0.jpg)

Mr Shelley's presence delays Mr Oswald's entry into that room, which must be cleared.

Now! Two things to note here:
1----------------------Mr Oswald is about to see Mr Shelley, who is his supervisor at the Depository
2----------------------Mr Shelley's first affidavit makes no mention of Mr Oswald


Here's what will happen:
--------------Mr Shelley will be asked to give a second affidavit, one that discusses Mr Oswald. Mr Shelley will tell whoever is taking this second affidavit that Mr Oswald was near him on the front steps at the time of the shooting.
--------------This information being unacceptable to the 'investigating' authorities, that second affidavit will tell us all about Mr Oswald with the exception of the single most crucial question: Did Mr Shelley see Mr Oswald at the time of the shooting? That question will be completely fudged through strategic omission.
--------------Mr Oswald, meanwhile, in his first interrogation in the back room will tell Captain Fritz that he went outside to watch the P. Parade. And he will mention Mr Shelley, whom he has just seen in what is now his interrogation room and is therefore someone who can be easily asked, as a witness who can back up this claim.
--------------The first OFFICIAL interrogation report for that session will
a) fudge the all-important question of where exactly Mr Oswald claimed to have been at the time of the shooting ("on the first floor")
b) make NO mention of Mr Shelley (whom Mr Oswald mentioned)....... but at the top someone will write in the name of He Who Cannot Be Named in the report itself, i.e. a man whom Mr Oswald named as a supporting witness for his alibi for the shooting

(https://i.imgur.com/uTL0tR9.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2021, 08:49:15 PM
Why can't Mr Oswald have simply lingered at the front entrance for a couple of minutes after the shooting, as others did?

Why can't Mr Oswald have simply lingered at the front entrance for a couple of minutes after the shooting, as others did?

If you're a LNer that would fly in the face of your tale that Lee was fleeing the scene....

However I believe that Lee said that he stood around outside for a few minutes before telling Shelley that he was going to take the afternoon off because there wouldn't be any work done that afternoon.  I believe there are photos that show Lee Oswald standing on the street in front of the TSBD.  He has his hands in his pockets ( just like the photo taken in Minsk) and he's watching the activity in the railroad switch yard. He's wearing a brown shirt and gray trousers. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 28, 2021, 09:05:07 PM
If Oswald was “lingering for several minutes” out front on the steps after meeting Baker/ Truly then

1. Oswald is NOT in much hurry to leave the TSBD to return to his boarding room at this point in time.
2. If not in a hurry, therefore, would not Oswald consider going to get his jacket left somewhere inside the TSBD, before he begins his trip to return to his boarding house?
3. Since it’s Mr.Kaiser linked to this story of finding CE 163 in the Domino room , then if the clip board story is suspect, then so is the jacket in Domino room story
4. Did Oswald perform his type of work lifting and moving boxes while carrying /wearing items such as his bracelet, ring, keys to house /room and P.O. Box , his wallet with possibly 13$ (= $100 in 2021) , on his person in loose shirt and pants pockets?
5. A plausible answer to 4. Is that Oswald took these items and placed them in his jacket pockets for safe keeping to avoid accidental loss while performing his job.
6. It’s plausible that Oswald therefore placed his jacket somewhere in TSBD that he thought to be more secure than in the Domino room.
7. One place could be the 2nd floor lunchroom closet or a room adjacent to lunchroom
8. If Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald at 12:15 in the 2nd floor lunchroom, it is therefore plausible that Oswald may have left his jacket there after leaving to go back down to the Domino room where it’s likely he was at 12:23 so as to have  heard/seen Jarman/Norman returning thru back door of TSBD.
9. 12:25, Oswald moves to the front lobby without his CE 163 Blue jacket, having left it in 2nd floor lunchroom closet or other adjacent storage room.
He may have been seen here also by Carolyn Arnold given that she never really categorically denied the 12:25 FBI report when she made her later 12:15 FBI statement.
10. The probability factor that Oswald could have been such an obstruction in front of the TSBD door that it caused a collision with a DPD cop with his gun drawn and subsequent Mr.Truly having to vouch for Oswald, and this event  was totally unnoticed   by Mr Williams, Mr Shelley adjacent and Pauline Sanders also, makes this an scenario defying reasonable probability and thus less plausible than other possibilities.
11. An alternative possibility that does not require one to have to result to label Baker/Truly as abject liars, does not require a leap beyond reasonable probability, yet preserves the principle PM=Oswald theory, is the Oswald Follows After Baker/Truly scenario, and is predicated on the passenger elevator being used by Oswald to 2nd floor which allows a more probable coincidental timing of an 85 sec post shots sighting by Baker of Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 28, 2021, 11:38:53 PM
Why can't Mr Oswald have simply lingered at the front entrance for a couple of minutes after the shooting, as others did?

If you're a LNer that would fly in the face of your tale that Lee was fleeing the scene....

However I believe that Lee said that he stood around outside for a few minutes before telling Shelley that he was going to take the afternoon off because there wouldn't be any work done that afternoon.  I believe there are photos that show Lee Oswald standing on the street in front of the TSBD.  He has his hands in his pockets ( just like the photo taken in Minsk) and he's watching the activity in the railroad switch yard. He's wearing a brown shirt and gray trousers.

Can you point us to this photo, Mr Cakebread?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 28, 2021, 11:52:56 PM
10. The probability factor that Oswald could have been such an obstruction in front of the TSBD door that it caused a collision

No collision. Officer Baker had a v. fleeting exchange with the man before Mr Truly took over. Scarcely ANYONE on those steps even noticed---or was willing afterwards to say they noticed---either Mr Truly or Officer Baker come running up.

I reckon several people saw the LHO-Baker-Truly encounter but shut up about it-------steering clear of trouble by claiming not even to have noticed Officer Baker's or Mr Truly's running up the steps and going through the glass door!

Quote
with a DPD cop with his gun drawn and subsequent Mr.Truly having to vouch for Oswald, and this event  was totally unnoticed   by Mr Williams, Mr Shelley adjacent

So Mr Shelley is still on the steps?

Quote
and Pauline Sanders also,

Who didn't even notice Mr Truly come running up

Thankfully the v. fleeting incident was noticed by Mr Lovelady and whoever spoke about it afterwards to DPD, who reported it to the press that same day.

Quote
makes this an scenario defying reasonable probability and thus less plausible than other possibilities.
11. An alternative possibility that does not require one to have to result to label Baker/Truly as abject liars, does not require a leap beyond reasonable probability, yet preserves the principle PM=Oswald theory, is the Oswald Follows After Baker/Truly scenario, and is predicated on the passenger elevator being used by Oswald to 2nd floor which allows a more probable coincidental timing of an 85 sec post shots sighting by Baker of Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Nope--the encounter happened at the front entrance. The lunchroom encounter is a fiction created by the 'investigating' authorities.

If you still disagree, do you believe Mr Oswald bought TWO cokes in the lunchroom----------one pre-motorcade, the other just after the assassination? Because that's the only way one can even begin to reconcile how the lunchroom is covered in the Hosty draft interrogation report and how it's covered in the later Bookhout solo interrogation report (both covering the same interrogation session)

Much simpler and more logical solution: Mr Oswald's claims (visited the lunchroom pre-motorcade, then went down to one, then went outside to watch P. Parade) were true-------and had to be buried
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2021, 11:59:15 PM
Can you point us to this photo, Mr Cakebread?

One of the photos is printed on page 68 of Groden's TKOAP. It is the color photo at the top of the page. I believe Billy Lovelady is standing beside Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 29, 2021, 12:07:41 AM
Where is Lovelady on record having stated something specific about seeing Oswald encounter Baker and Truly at the entrance door of TSBD?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 29, 2021, 12:11:24 AM
Exhibit A: from Mr Bill Shelley's #2 affidavit, 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/su9eZwP.jpg)

This says that Mr Shelley saw Mr Oswald periodically before noon, but never saw him after that. Right? NOPE. It only creates that impression by saying nothing at all about whether Mr Shelley saw Mr Oswald at the time of the actual shooting. The word "after" (the President's accident) does the crucial work of time-leaping misdirection here.

Exhibit B: from Mr Jack Dougherty's affidavit 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/MW5c9j2.jpg)

This says that the last time Mr Dougherty saw Mr Oswald was on the sixth floor shortly before noon. Right? NOPE. It only creates that impression via the phrase "after lunch". What's being left out here? Thanks to Mr Jack Dougherty's interview with Mr Gill Toff a few years after the assassination, we know the answer: Mr Dougherty's sighting of Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade (i.e. DURING lunch).

Exhibit C: from Mr Billy Lovelady's FBI interview report 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/5DBnj4a.jpg)

This says that the last time Mr Lovelady saw Mr Oswald was around 11:50am. Right? NOPE. It only creates that impression via the weasel word "contact". Then it uses that same word we see in the Shelley & Dougherty affidavits: "after". The phrase "After the shooting" allows the statement to leap from 11:50am to after the assassination. Not a peep about whether or not Mr Lovelady saw Mr Oswald at or around the time of the assassination itself. (This, recall, is the same Mr Billy Lovelady who has already told Mr James Jarman about his witnessing of a front entrance encounter between Mr Oswald, an officer and Mr Truly!)

Three massive facts are being artfully buried in these early witness statements:
1. Mr Shelley saw Mr Oswald out on the front steps at the time of the assassination
2. Mr Dougherty saw Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade
3. Mr Lovelady saw Mr Oswald out on the front steps at the time of the assassination (and/or very shortly thereafter)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 29, 2021, 12:12:26 AM
Where is Lovelady on record having stated something specific about seeing Oswald encounter Baker and Truly at the entrance door of TSBD?

He told Mr James Jarman all about it, who in turn told the HSCA all about it
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 29, 2021, 02:15:45 AM
Mr. Ford , you are going to have to write a book soon :)

Thanks for additional information on these critical witnesses secondary and third party statements, which the WC JFK witness page unfortunately does
Not reference.








Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 29, 2021, 03:14:41 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/su9eZwP.jpg)

This says that Mr Shelley saw Mr Oswald periodically before noon, but never saw him after that. Right? NOPE. It only creates that impression by saying nothing at all about whether Mr Shelley saw Mr Oswald at the time of the actual shooting. The word "after" (the President's accident) does the crucial work of time-leaping misdirection here.

(https://i.imgur.com/MW5c9j2.jpg)

This says that the last time Mr Dougherty saw Mr Oswald was on the sixth floor shortly before noon. Right? NOPE. It only creates that impression via the phrase "after lunch". What's being left out here? Thanks to Mr Jack Dougherty's interview with Mr Gill Toff a few years after the assassination, we know the answer: Mr Dougherty's sighting of Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom shortly before the motorcade (i.e. DURING lunch).

(https://i.imgur.com/5DBnj4a.jpg)

This says that the last time Mr Lovelady saw Mr Oswald was around 11:50am. Right? NOPE. It only creates that impression via the weasel word "contact".

It's how one reads ...

(https://www.freshnessmag.com/.image/t_share/MTM2ODM2Mzg3MDExNTAzNzEz/rxart---between-the-lines-coloring-books---0.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 29, 2021, 04:09:52 AM
Mr. Ford , you are going to have to write a book soon :)

Thanks for additional information on these critical witnesses secondary and third party statements, which the WC JFK witness page unfortunately does
Not reference.

Why thank you, Mr Mason!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 29, 2021, 04:13:11 AM
It's how one reads ...

(https://www.freshnessmag.com/.image/t_share/MTM2ODM2Mzg3MDExNTAzNzEz/rxart---between-the-lines-coloring-books---0.jpg)

Another weak cope from the Warren Gullible!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 30, 2021, 01:25:52 AM
Now! Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes recalled Mr Oswald in his final interrogation talking about a "First floor, front entrance" encounter with a cop.

What's interesting here is that Mr Holmes evidently has no sense that what he's saying is surprising or at odds with the official story. This is because he evidently has no recollection of Captain Fritz or anyone else challenging Mr Oswald on this or even expressing surprise that he was no longer confirming a second-floor lunchroom encounter (which the OFFICIAL first interrogation report by Agent Bookhout says he did).

EXPLANATION: Captain Fritz never challenged Mr Oswald on his key claims (pre-motorcade lunchroom visit - down to 1 for lunch - went outside to watch P. Parade - encounter with officer & Mr Truly at front entrance) because he was keeping his suspect in the dark as to what he was really being accused of.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 30, 2021, 09:50:32 PM
But what about the NEXT day , Saturday when Oswald is being taken in the hallway and he’s stating that he “categorically denies these charges“?

Surely Oswald was by now been charged with some serious crime, therfore the reason for Oswald to make such statement?

Yet apparently not yet charged with shooting the POTUS, and that being reason not to shout his out front steps alibi?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 30, 2021, 10:03:17 PM
But what about the NEXT day , Saturday when Oswald is being taken in the hallway and he’s stating that he “categorically denies these charges“?

Surely Oswald was by now been charged with some serious crime, therfore the reason for Oswald to make such statement?

Yet apparently not yet charged with shooting the POTUS, and that being reason not to shout his out front steps alibi?

As far as he is given to understand right up to his death on the Sunday, he is charged with shooting Officer Tippit and complicity (via rifle) in the murder of Pres. Kennedy. These are the charges he emphatically denies.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 30, 2021, 11:58:16 PM
There is no statement as far (as I’m aware) in the JFK witness page from DPD officer Barnett about stopping an Oswald who was then “let go” because Truly vouched for him.

The time would have been between 2 min 30 sec post shots ( earliest) and 3 min sec ps ( latest) by Barnett’s own estimate, of himself locking the TSBD front door.
 Pierce Allman met the man he thinks was Oswald , just inside the front door, the door being partly open. ( his video statement)

But if this is Just literally after Baker/Truly entered, and Oswald is there in the doorway, apparently Allman was also oblivious to seeing Baker in the lobby or thru the clear glass doors (2nd set) when Allman does to the phones available in this 1st floor lobby area.


The timing for Allman to reasonably NOT have seen Baker in lobby or with Truly trying to open the counter top desk (thru the 2nd set of glass doors) would have to be approx 65-70 secs post shots when B/T are past this desk office area and traversing towards the rear elevators and stairwell. ( B/T just missed seeing Adams and Styles having exited a side door by the west elevator).

So my estimate for Pierce Allman of approx 60 sec post shots reaching the TSBD front door if the interview with Newmans is 30 sec or less, and distance is approx 250 ft or less is possibly verifiable via an 2013 or later interview with Allman.

Now why Mr Williams on one side and Pauline Sanders on the other side do not see Oswald or Truly is still a mystery :)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 31, 2021, 02:43:43 AM
There is no statement as far (as I’m aware) in the JFK witness page from DPD officer Barnett about stopping an Oswald who was then “let go” because Truly vouched for him.

The time would have been between 2 min 30 sec post shots ( earliest) and 3 min sec ps ( latest) by Barnett’s own estimate, of himself locking the TSBD front door.
 Pierce Allman met the man he thinks was Oswald , just inside the front door, the door being partly open. ( his video statement)

But if this is Just literally after Baker/Truly entered, and Oswald is there in the doorway, apparently Allman was also oblivious to seeing Baker in the lobby or thru the clear glass doors (2nd set) when Allman does to the phones available in this 1st floor lobby area.


The timing for Allman to reasonably NOT have seen Baker in lobby or with Truly trying to open the counter top desk (thru the 2nd set of glass doors) would have to be approx 65-70 secs post shots when B/T are past this desk office area and traversing towards the rear elevators and stairwell. ( B/T just missed seeing Adams and Styles having exited a side door by the west elevator).

So my estimate for Pierce Allman of approx 60 sec post shots reaching the TSBD front door if the interview with Newmans is 30 sec or less, and distance is approx 250 ft or less is possibly verifiable via an 2013 or later interview with Allman.

Not sure what the big issue is here, Mr Mason. Mr Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade; just after the shooting he had the encounter with Officer Baker & Mr Truly at the front entrance; he remained in that area a little longer; then came another man running up the steps asking for guidance.

Now in between the Baker-Truly encounter and the 'Where's the telephone?' encounter it's possible Mr Oswald nipped into the small storage room just by the front stairs (to retrieve something? or dispose of his coke bottle & lunch remains? to check on the curtain rods he had left there?) and was seen there by Mr Ochus Campbell and whoever Mr Campbell had come running in with (Ms Reid perhaps--------was this the real site of her 'Somebody shot the President' encounter with Mr Oswald?).

Alternatively, the first-floor storage room may have been a crude first re-draft of the actual front entrance encounter-----------to be replaced within hours with the more considered fiction of a second-floor lunchroom encounter

Quote
Now why Mr Williams on one side and Pauline Sanders on the other side do not see Oswald or Truly is still a mystery :)

Not a single person on the steps at the time will go on the record with a recollection of having seen both Officer Baker and Mr Truly running into the building. For some, one can allow that their focus of attention was elsewhere. But for everyone, including Mr Frazier? Quite a stretch, isn't it?

Mr Lovelady's remarks to Mr Jarman explains the weird invisibility of the two men: they had their encounter with Mr Oswald right there, at the front entrance. Just like Mr Oswald said.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 31, 2021, 03:50:35 AM
To those say 'Oswald can't be Prayer Man because no one saw him there' I have two simple questions:

1) How many people in that crowded front entrance area a minute or two after the shooting had a clear recollection of Mr Oswald's a) presence there b) encounter with the man seeking a telephone?

2) What do you conclude from the answer to 1)?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 31, 2021, 05:26:47 AM
It SEEMs to defy probability, however Oswald is basically a nobody at this point in time and so I guess it’s possible for such person to be virtually invisible

DPD cop with gun drawn in white helmet  on the other hand and a well known “and recognizable Boss” also having his hat on, it’s probably going to require Duncan’s Gorilla Unseen in the very midst of basketball players 😳
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 01, 2021, 07:55:55 AM
It SEEMs to defy probability, however Oswald is basically a nobody at this point in time and so I guess it’s possible for such person to be virtually invisible

One might compare the fact that Mr Oswald was seen down on one around noon by Messrs Shelley and Piper. What's striking here is that, in a space where plenty of folk will have been circulating at that time, only two people noticed Mr Oswald. Weird, right? Not really. Being a nondescript nobody at this point, he was as you say virtually invisible to people. That continues to hold for the time of the assassination and for the minutes leading up to his exit from the Depository: Mr Oswald was, up to his arrest, a nondescript nobody.

Quote
DPD cop with gun drawn in white helmet  on the other hand and a well known “and recognizable Boss” also having his hat on, it’s probably going to require Duncan’s Gorilla Unseen in the very midst of basketball players 😳

Quite! There was evidently something about Officer Baker and Mr Truly's entry into the building that induced blindness/amnesia in those still on the front steps at that time. I believe this something can safely be identified based on what Mr Oswald said in interrogation, what DPD were telling the press later that day and what Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman within minutes of the assassination: Officer Baker and Mr Truly had their encounter with Mr Oswald right there at the front entrance, right after the shots had rang out.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 01, 2021, 09:42:10 PM
But what about the NEXT day , Saturday when Oswald is being taken in the hallway and he’s stating that he “categorically denies these charges“?

Surely Oswald was by now been charged with some serious crime, therfore the reason for Oswald to make such statement?

Yet apparently not yet charged with shooting the POTUS, and that being reason not to shout his out front steps alibi?

Lee wouldn't have stated an alibi ....He thought that it was supposed to appear as though he had fired at JFK.   He wanted Castro to believe that he had tried to shoot JFK....    So he surely wouldn't have denied doing it .   I truly do not know WHEN Lee became aware that JFK had been killed.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 01, 2021, 11:34:59 PM
It SEEMs to defy probability, however Oswald is basically a nobody at this point in time and so I guess it’s possible for such person to be virtually invisible

DPD cop with gun drawn in white helmet  on the other hand and a well known “and recognizable Boss” also having his hat on, it’s probably going to require Duncan’s Gorilla Unseen in the very midst of basketball players 😳

Oswald is basically a nobody at this point in time and so I guess it’s possible for such person to be virtually invisible

There are no bugles or medals for spies......   The very best spies shun any kind of recognition, and they most certainly will never take credit for their deeds.   Lee Oswald was a damned good spy for his young age.    Lee managed to penetrate the USSR , accomplish his mission and return to Texas.    JFK and RFK wee both aware of the young spy's success and it was due to JFK's prodding that the US government helped Lee get out of the USSR and back home.   But Lee was still a spy after he returned because that's what he strived to be....       
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on September 02, 2021, 12:05:12 AM
I truly do not know WHEN Lee became aware that JFK had been killed.

Oswald would have been pretty sure when he saw a a red halo around Kennedy's head.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 02, 2021, 12:16:17 AM
As far as he is given to understand right up to his death on the Sunday, he is charged with shooting Officer Tippit and complicity (via rifle) in the murder of Pres. Kennedy. These are the charges he emphatically denies.

right up to his death on the Sunday, he is charged with shooting Officer Tippit and complicity (via rifle) in the murder of Pres. Kennedy. These are the charges he emphatically denies.

and complicity in the murder of Pres. Kennedy. These are the charges he emphatically denies.

 complicity in the murder of Pres. Kennedy.

Complicity ....The state of being an accomplice as in a wrongful act.   

Are you sure that Lee was being charged as an accomplice ??.....   You may be right...but I'm pretty sure that on 11-23-63 Hoover said that the white house needed to release a statement that stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was simply a lone nut killer who had no accomplices.

   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on September 03, 2021, 01:56:28 PM
Oswald would have been pretty sure when he saw a a red halo around Kennedy's head.

JohnM


...... and i bet he smirked after seeing the red.  Kennedy killer.  He should never have been born.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on September 03, 2021, 10:58:26 PM

...... and i bet he smirked after seeing the red.  Kennedy killer.  He should never have been born.

"..With a rebel yell more, more, more
He lives in his own heaven
Collects it to go from the seven eleven ..."

https://account.star-telegram.com/paywall/subscriber-only?resume=187524003&intcid=ab_archive
Dec 1, 2017 — "Robert Lee Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald and a former resident of Fort Worth, .."

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/142144510/alexander-stephens-hidell
Alexander Stephens Hidell, Sr. is the son of Colonel William Henry Hidell who was the private secretary to Alexander Hamilton Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America."

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistick_Krewe_of_Comus
Mistick Krewe of Comus -
The Mistick Krewe of Comus, founded in 1856, is a New Orleans, Louisiana, Carnival krewe. ... Abbreviation, MKC. Named after, Comus.

Quote
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/4471-rex/?tab=comments#comment-34138
Thomas H. Purvis - Posted July 20, 2005
.....
.......
Of course, other Queens of COMUS include the daughter of General Robert E. Lee as well as the daughter of Jefferson Davis

Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/100520469/constance-ivy-fedoroff
Constance Ivy Burke Fedoroff
.....
Queen MKC 1950.

Family Members
Parents
Photo
William P. Burke
1900–1980















































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 06, 2021, 11:45:30 PM
"..With a rebel yell more, more, more
He lives in his own heaven
Collects it to go from the seven eleven ..."

https://account.star-telegram.com/paywall/subscriber-only?resume=187524003&intcid=ab_archive
Dec 1, 2017 — "Robert Lee Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald and a former resident of Fort Worth, .."

Off-topic garbage!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 07, 2021, 12:46:04 AM

Are you sure that Lee was being charged as an accomplice ??.....   You may be right...but I'm pretty sure that on 11-23-63 Hoover said that the white house needed to release a statement that stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was simply a lone nut killer who had no accomplices.

We need to distinguish between
a) what the press was being told
b) what Mr Oswald was being told
c) what Mr Oswald was being told the press was being told

"I don't know what dispatches you people have been getting............"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2021, 03:57:05 AM
Now!

Officer Baker's same-day affidavit:

(https://i.imgur.com/SOzvTXo.jpg)

Let us focus on the underlined section of text.

"As i entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were."

Question #1!
Do you believe there were several people standing around behind the glass door (i.e. on the inside) and that these were the people Officer Baker asked about the stairs?

Question #2 for anyone who answered Yes to Question #1!
Who can these several people standing around behind the glass door have been? Any idea??

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2021, 04:26:35 AM
"As i entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were."

Question #1!
Do you believe there were several people standing around behind the glass door (i.e. on the inside) and that these were the people Officer Baker asked about the stairs?

Question #2 for anyone who answered Yes to Question #1!
Who can these several people standing around behind the glass door have been?

 Thumb1:

So Officer Baker, in his affidavit, gives us "several people standing around".

In his testimony, curiously enough, he will turn the "several people standing around" into several people who are moving: "As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered". These people going in were the people he asked about the stairs.

Unfortunately his testimony change ends up painting a picture of an improbably crowded door: "As I entered... there were people going in". Not people already inside but people going in at the exact same time as he was!

But why the curious change from people standing around to people going in? Because he needs to move the asking-about-the-stairs moment from OUTSIDE to INSIDE. This is because he knows that IN REALITY he had been looking at one person in particular as he asked about the stairs, a man who was one of the several people standing around just outside the door.

Down at the bottom of the steps, meanwhile, was an employee of the Depository who saw Officer Baker addressing (and appearing to challenge) the man who was one of the several people standing around just outside the door. The employee at the bottom of the steps was Mr Billy Lovelady, the man who was one of the several people standing around just outside the door was Mr Lee Harvey Oswald.

Several minutes after the assassination, Mr Lovelady told Mr James Jarman what he had seen.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2021, 04:34:29 AM
 Mr Roy Truly, in his WC testimony:

"As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close" (emphasis added)

A similarly cackhanded attempt to obfuscate the true location of the where-are-the-stairs? moment just outside the front door!

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 11, 2021, 02:48:18 AM
“As an officer rushed into the building Oswald rushed out. The policeman permitted him to pass after the building manager told the policeman that Oswald was an employee.”
-Chief Jesse Curry, quoted in The Washington Post, 11/23/63

"As the Presidential limousine sped to the hospital the police dragnet went into action. (Det. Ed) Hicks said at just about that time, Oswald came out of the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what all the excitement was all about."
-London Free Press, 11/23/63

Thus did DPD spin a perfectly innocent, super-brief front-entrance exchange------------Mr Oswald being asked if he worked there/where the stairs were-------------into a fateful encounter with a fleeing ("rushing") assassin. In reality, Mr Oswald had already come out to the front steps to watch the P. Parade.

Only when the 'investigating' authorities realized to their horror just how soon after the last shot Officer Baker had rushed up those steps did the line change: second-floor lunchroom encounter!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 11, 2021, 02:57:53 AM

...... and i bet he smirked after seeing the red.  Kennedy killer.  He should never have been born.

Oh boy... What's this, typical to LNs, emotional stuff decades after fact?

Some people really love to hate a dead guy... It seems
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 11, 2021, 03:04:39 AM
Oh boy... What's this, typical to LNs, emotional stuff decades after fact?

Yep, Mr O'Blazney is an emotional guy. He wrote this a couple of years back:

"and what, pray tell, mssr. 'prayerdude', explains your cognitive dissonance?  anybody but oswald.  i remember having a nice chat with mssr. bugliosi back in the day.  that, and other conversations changed my mind, for i was almost like you.  and then there was leo damore, whose book deprived ted kennedy of his mantle as president. and before that, lane and garrison, et. al.  they polluted the minds of millions...... MILLIONS !!!  mae  didn't help, either.  nor did sarah mcclendon, whose wheelchair i used to push into the white house for press conferences (they don't have press conferences anymore.....sigh+), passing notes to tim mccury from her.  oh, those were the days !!.  everything changed when W was illegally named 'the chief'.  they wouldn't let me in then after that numbskull was erected, as i had an FBI file, et. al., but she bellowed "the president shall hear of this !!"....... then they let me in. did you know she was responsible for an 11 million-dollar makeover in order to have handicapped people accessible into the white house? (read: americans with disabilities act)"

 ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2021, 02:17:00 AM
Fun fact!

The SS 'reconstruction' of Mr Oswald's alleged descent from the sixth floor to the lunchroom ends with the LHO stand-in sitting down at one of the lunchroom tables:

(https://i.imgur.com/Do8m8By.jpg)

Wherever did they get this idea from? :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2021, 02:24:24 AM
Fun fact!

The SS 'reconstruction' of Mr Oswald's alleged descent from the sixth floor to the lunchroom ends with the LHO stand-in sitting down at one of the lunchroom tables:

(https://i.imgur.com/Do8m8By.jpg)

Wherever did they get this idea from? :D

Here's where:

The lunchroom story initially had Mr Oswald STATIONARY inside the lunchroom, and Officer Baker popping his head in out of either telepathic instinct or a deluxe edition of due diligence.

Once the 'investigators' realized this story would collapse on its own intrinsic silliness, however, they cast around for a credible REASON for Officer Baker to check out the lunchroom. In the end the pitiful best they could come up with was a 'movement' behind the glass window that the genius officer found so suspicious as to merit delaying his rush to the top of the building!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2021, 02:48:38 AM
Now!

Hands up who believes the SS would have formally enacted and filmed a reconstruction of Mr Oswald's alleged movements WITHOUT receiving ANY input from EITHER Mr Roy Truly OR Officer Baker as to where exactly Mr Oswald was when he was first seen on the second floor!

(https://i.imgur.com/Do8m8By.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on September 16, 2021, 03:24:09 PM
Yep, Mr O'Blazney is an emotional guy. He wrote this a couple of years back:

"and what, pray tell, mssr. 'prayerdude', explains your cognitive dissonance?  anybody but oswald.  i remember having a nice chat with mssr. bugliosi back in the day.  that, and other conversations changed my mind, for i was almost like you.  and then there was leo damore, whose book deprived ted kennedy of his mantle as president. and before that, lane and garrison, et. al.  they polluted the minds of millions...... MILLIONS !!!  mae  didn't help, either.  nor did sarah mcclendon, whose wheelchair i used to push into the white house for press conferences (they don't have press conferences anymore.....sigh+), passing notes to tim mccury from her.  oh, those were the days !!.  everything changed when W was illegally named 'the chief'.  they wouldn't let me in then after that numbskull was erected, as i had an FBI file, et. al., but she bellowed "the president shall hear of this !!"....... then they let me in. did you know she was responsible for an 11 million-dollar makeover in order to have handicapped people accessible into the white house? (read: americans with disabilities act)"

 ???

"An emotional guy?" Look in a mirror. You wet yourself over curtain rods and you're at it again in this thread.

I don't waste my time with anyone who even hints of duplicity or dishonesty. Mark O'Blazney is your mirror opposite. Try asking Mark a sincere, serious question, he has nothing to hide and is always willing to help other sincere posters. He is cynical and sarcastic, having been exposed to both Leo Damore and to Peter Janney! He knows more about Washington DC of the past sixty years than anyone else I've noticed and he never takes himself too seriously. You, OTOH ..... ?

There are two kinds of personalities participating in assassination studies, those you can trust and those you cannot. You do what you are attempting to do here to Mark O'Blazney and it is your reputation you are displaying, not his.

O'Blazney or Janney, sincerity or snake oil. Take your pick.

Remember author Janney? This was his BS...

Quote
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/07/peter-janney/the-autodaf-of-lisa-pease-and-jamesdieugenio-tomas-de-torquemada-and-the-spanish-inquisition-return-in-a-new-era-of-suppression-of-freedom-of-thought-and-adherence-to-a-rigid-dogma-namely-thei/
The Autodaf of Lisa Pease and James DiEugenio Tomas de Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition return in a new era of suppression of freedom of thought and adherence to a rigid dogma - namely their own prejudices!
By Peter Janney
July 6, 2012
....In addition, Ms. Pease can't even seem to fathom or consider how "Lt. William L. Mitchell," a man who told police he was jogging on the towpath when he passed Mary Meyer — allegedly just before the murder took place — told police that a "Negro male" matching Wiggins' description was following her in an effort to frame Ray Crump. "Mitchell" would then testify against Crump at the murder trial nine months later in July 1965 as part of the CIA's assassination operation. It doesn't seem to matter to Pease that "Mitchell" has never been able to be located since the trial, or that his known address during that time was documented as a "CIA safe house" by three separate former CIA employees. At the time of trial in July 1965, Mitchell told a reporter that he had since retired from the military and was now a mathematics instructor at Georgetown University — yet no record of his employment there could ever be located, nor was there ever any bona-fide military service record located for "Mitchell," either in the Pentagon where he was listed in the directory at the time of the murder, or in the main military data base in St. Louis. This was thoroughly researched by the Peabody Award-winning journalist Roger Charles, as discussed in my book, a fact that Pease fails to mention in one of her many deliberate omissions, which also included Damore's consultation with L. Fletcher Prouty (as documented by Damore's attorney James H. Smith) to finally understand who "Mitchell" was, before Damore confronted him. Of course, Lisa Pease is entitled to whatever flawed point of view she wants to embrace, but she's not entitled to her own set of facts.

The rest of Pease's long-winded misstatements criticizing author Leo Damore,
Timothy Leary, Robert Morrow, Gregory Douglas and other sources who I attempted to unravel — explicitly noting their deficiencies and limitations — completely obfuscates the clarity of the emerging picture: Placed in a larger context, and juxtaposed with firm documentation, the aggregate unfolding scenario clearly indicates that Mary Meyer's life was ended by a CIA assassination. But in the Pease-DiEugenio fantasy world, people are either all white or all black, complete truth-tellers or liars, completely reliable or unreliable. There are no shades of grey; there is no ambiguity; and there is no room for the analysis of intricacy and complexity....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2021, 03:41:56 PM
I don't waste my time with anyone who even hints of duplicity or dishonesty. Mark O'Blazney is your mirror opposite. Try asking Mark a sincere, serious question, he has nothing to hide and is always willing to help other sincere posters. He is cynical and sarcastic, having been exposed to both Leo Damore and to Peter Janney! He knows more about Washington DC of the past sixty years than anyone else I've noticed and he never takes himself too seriously. You, OTOH ..... ?

I've heard that Messrs Damore and Janney both liked the Ed Sullivan Show, and that Ed Sullivan once met someone called Maria. This calls for one of your amazingly productive, case-cracking deep data dives, Mr Scully--------------let us know how you get on!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2021, 04:24:43 PM
Fun fact!

The SS 'reconstruction' of Mr Oswald's alleged descent from the sixth floor to the lunchroom ends with the LHO stand-in sitting down at one of the lunchroom tables:

(https://i.imgur.com/Do8m8By.jpg)

Wherever did they get this idea from? :D

Wherever did they get this idea from? :D


The idea probably came from Baker who told the Oswald stand in ( John J. Howlett ) that " Lee Harvey Oswald was sitting at the table drinking a coke, when I opened the lunchroom door"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2021, 05:18:36 PM
Wherever did they get  this  idea from? :D
 The idea probably came from Baker who told the Oswald stand in that " Lee Harvey Oswald was sitting at the table drinking a coke, when I opened the lunchroom door"
"...the Oswald stand in "
Would that not be the Oswald sit in? :-\
For our audience for the umpty-umpth time----
Quote
As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Quote
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Quote
Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
That multi-colored jacket keeps showing up...going from light brown to grey to white to blue and back again.
Quote
Mr. FRAZIER - He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0270a.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2021, 05:38:03 PM
"...the Oswald stand in "
Would that not be the Oswald sit in? :-\
For our audience for the umpty-umpth time----https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htmThat multi-colored jacket keeps showing up...going from light brown to grey to white to blue and back again. (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0270a.jpg)

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

165 pounds..... Lee weighed 131 pounds         Dark hair..... Lee had sandy colored hair     
wearing a light brown jacket...   Lee was wearing a reddish brown colored shirt .

Jerry, Baker trip over his words when he testified before the WC.....   In recalling the scene to his minds eye, and  describing the the location where he called to the man who was sneaking away from the stairs . He said that it was dark in there by the elevators.     Which I'm sure you know is a sharp contrast to the well lit second floor lunchroom where he encountered Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 05:41:54 PM
"...the Oswald stand in "
Would that not be the Oswald sit in? :-\
For our audience for the umpty-umpth time----https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htmThat multi-colored jacket keeps showing up...going from light brown to grey to white to blue and back again. (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0270a.jpg)

John posted this on a different thread to demonstrate the "multi-coloured jacket" phenomenon is not as rare as you might think:

In the following image is shown the man wearing BLACK who in and around Port Arthur killed 35 people and many eyewitnesses were face to face with this mass murderer and positively identified him and later this man admitted to the crime.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VsHPB442/Martin-Bryant-at-Port-Arthur.jpg)

These eyewitnesses all positively identified the same man and understandably have differing memories on the clothing colour but if we use the same criteria of throwing out eyewitnesses because of a silly colour discrepancy then we'd still have a mass murderer on the loose. And this highlights the problem with rabid JFKA CT's, outside this single case, they have no real life experience!

Name of Witness: DUTTON Christian Names: James David       brown jacket
Name of Witness: KINGSTON Christian Names: Ian Gregory     green jacket
Name of Witness: BEEKMAN Christian Names: Michael Dean     ski type jacket, blue, orange and a few other colours on it
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Colin Sydney    3/4 length jacket, dark in appearance
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Iris Emelia     He had on a jacket of some description.
Name of Witness: SARGENT Christian Names: Michael Robert   blue jacket
Name of Witness: RIVIERE Christian Names: John Michael     “High length’ black jacket
Name of Witness: OLSON Christian Names: MARY LEE           I think was green
Name of Witness: LEVER Cristian Names: Coralee Helen       dark jacket
Name of Witness: NASH Christian Names: Carolyn Louise      khaki green jacket or parker type jacket
Name of Witness: BALASKO Christian Names: James            black jacket
Name of Witness: McKENNA Christian Names: Rebecca Kate     ski type jacket which was zipped all the way up. it was either navy, blue or grey.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2021, 06:36:33 PM
  ..this highlights the problem with rabid JFKA CT's, outside this single case, they have no real life experience!
Why are these snipes and pot shots necessary? A [trained in observation] policeman described the lunchroom man in affidavit and testimony. Wes Frazier who drove Oswald to work describes his [shirt-jacket] as baggy several times. So he couldn't remember the color. What color of shirt did you wear 2 days ago?
The claim that people that you don't even know... have "no real life experience" is based on some imaginary grandeur psychic abilities I suppose?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 07:23:10 PM
Why are these snipes and pot shots necessary? A [trained in observation] policeman described the lunchroom man in affidavit and testimony. Wes Frazier who drove Oswald to work describes his [shirt-jacket] as baggy several times. So he couldn't remember the color. What color of shirt did you wear 2 days ago?
The claim that people that you don't even know... have "no real life experience" is based on some imaginary grandeur psychic abilities I suppose?
Just to be clear, that quote isn't from me.
I posted part of a John Mytton post demonstrating the unreliability of witness statements regarding clothing.
I posted it because I think it highlights the problem of clinging on to a specific detail given in a witness statement without considering it's unreliability.
I'm sure you'll agree that the Mytton post is a powerful reminder of how unreliable a witness account of clothing can be.

LATER EDIT:

BTW Frazier is absolutely certain Oswald wore a light gray jacket to work that morning.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2021, 07:50:46 PM
BTW Frazier is absolutely certain Oswald wore a light gray jacket to work that morning.
Right... Oswald wore a grey jacket on the way to work and then after he left work, he took a cab wearing a blue jacket and went home and then [supposedly] changed into a grey jacket.
BTW--What color [again] of shirt did you wear 2 days ago?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2021, 08:04:45 PM
Just to be clear, that quote isn't from me....I posted part of a John Mytton post
The quotes were not posted correctly then. Also, there were no links to follow the [not very useful] information.
Even so... you appear to agree that an opposing viewpoint is from "rabid individuals who have no life experience".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 08:14:40 PM
That's not what he demonstrated.

You still don't get it.

LOL

You're quite correct Otto,
It's a matter of colour, not the actual garment.
It was a point being made about the multi-coloured  nature of the "jacket"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 08:19:48 PM
Right... Oswald wore a grey jacket on the way to work and then after he left work, he took a cab wearing a blue jacket and went home and then [supposedly] changed into a grey jacket.
BTW--What color [again] of shirt did you wear 2 days ago?

"...he took a cab wearing a blue jacket..."

You've been listening to Walt too much.
He described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.
He could be saying the jacket was also a very light colour and made of a khaki material.
If so, you're example scans as - wore a light grey jacket to work, got a cab wearing a light coloured jacket, went home and changed into a light grey jacket.
Mind blowing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 08:27:50 PM
The quotes were not posted correctly then. Also, there were no links to follow the [not very useful] information.
Even so... you appear to agree that an opposing viewpoint is from "rabid individuals who have no life experience".

Is that a fact Jerry.

Just so we're clear, I don't think Oswald took the shots.
The subsequent investigation was profoundly incompetent and it is difficult to tell where the incompetence ends and the corruption starts.
And the WC hearings were a farce.

I hold an "opposing viewpoint" but give me an LNer over a CTer every time.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 08:29:51 PM
Not "jacket".

Jacket.

No wonder you're so all over the place, also on the forum, currently.

The reason I put "jacket" is because I don't think it was a jacket.
I think it was CE 151

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2021, 08:37:30 PM
"...he took a cab wearing a blue jacket..."

You've been listening to Walt too much.
He described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.
He could be saying the jacket was also a very light colour and made of a khaki material.
If so, you're example scans as - wore a light grey jacket to work, got a cab wearing a light coloured jacket, went home and changed into a light grey jacket.
Mind blowing.

You've been listening to Walt too much.
He described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.

Bull sh--!.....
He  (Whaley) described his passenger's ( who was NOT LHO ) clothing as BLUE trousers and a BLUE jacket  that made up a UNIFORM.    Uniforms usually have matching Jacket and trousers.   Think of a policeman's uniform.

AND what's more Lee Oswald was NOT wearing a Jacket .  Why do you persist in attempting to morph Whaleys passenger into Lee Oswald.    Are you really this confused ?....


described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 16, 2021, 09:19:41 PM
You've been listening to Walt too much.
He described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.

Bull sh--!.....
He  (Whaley) described his passenger's ( who was NOT LHO ) clothing as BLUE trousers and a BLUE jacket  that made up a UNIFORM.    Uniforms usually have matching Jacket and trousers.   Think of a policeman's uniform.

Bullsh*t to you too.
Whaley only describes the pants as faded blue and made of a khaki material. That's a fact.
He describes the jacket as being similar to the pants. That's a fact
If the jacket was the same as the pants, as in a uniform, he wouldn't have used the word "similar", he would have said it was the same.
Whaley does not describe a blue jacket. That's a fact
(and remember...you like to deal with facts)

Quote
AND what's more Lee Oswald was NOT wearing a Jacket .  Why do you persist in attempting to morph Whaleys passenger into Lee Oswald.    Are you really this confused ?....

It hurts to be labeled "confused" by you Walt

(I know I shouldn't have to point out the inherent irony in the above statement but I feel I must)

Quote
described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.

Erm...I'm sure you've added this for some good reason.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2021, 11:13:36 PM
"...he took a cab wearing a blue jacket..."

You've been listening to Walt too much.
He described light blue pants made of a khaki material and a similar jacket.
He could be saying the jacket was also a very light colour and made of a khaki material. *Mind blowing.
And you are waffling too much. Similar means very much like in appearance does it not? Regardless whether this supposed [taxi] jacket was blue, grey, or pink with yellow polka dots, the cab driver testified that his passenger wore one did he not? "Oswald" the bus passenger didn't [according to those witnesses]   
          *BTW-- small minds are easily blown so be careful.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 01:20:46 AM
Wherever did they get this idea from? :D


The idea probably came from Baker who told the Oswald stand in ( John J. Howlett ) that " Lee Harvey Oswald was sitting at the table drinking a coke, when I opened the lunchroom door"

Possible. It would of course mean that

a) his 11/22 affidavit describes an encounter with a man other than Mr Oswald on a higher floor
b) he lied his backside off to the Warren Commission

It would also raise the hardly trivial question: Why on earth would Officer Baker have felt it necessary to check out the lunchroom in the first place?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 01:33:51 AM
Bullsh*t to you too.
Whaley only describes the pants as faded blue and made of a khaki material. That's a fact.
He describes the jacket as being similar to the pants. That's a fact
If the jacket was the same as the pants, as in a uniform, he wouldn't have used the word "similar", he would have said it was the same.
Whaley does not describe a blue jacket. That's a fact
(and remember...you like to deal with facts)

It hurts to be labeled "confused" by you Walt

(I know I shouldn't have to point out the inherent irony in the above statement but I feel I must)

Erm...I'm sure you've added this for some good reason.


I'm sorry, Dan Ol Man....   But When you persist in trying to place Lee Oswald in Whaley's cab in spite of the evidence that reveals Lee could not have been Whaley's passenger I can only assume that you are confused.
It hurts to be labeled "confused" by you Walt
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 01:56:26 AM
So the jacket is now a "jacket" because it's actually CE 151.... LOL

You fail again because Whaley already dealt with the shirt, claiming it was CE 150, so Oswald is now wearing two long sleeved shirts!

Awesome watching an LN suicide mission real time.

 Oswald is now wearing two long sleeved shirts!

Yes, and in addition to that Whaley actually testified that his passenger was wearing TWO jackets......  Had there been a defense attorney.... The case would have ended at that point....   Talk about insane and absurd testimony!!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 01:57:15 AM
The reason I put "jacket" is because I don't think it was a jacket.
I think it was CE 151

 :D

So!

Jacket------------> wrong!
Color-------------> wrong!
Location----------> wrong!
What man was doing when first seen-----------> wrong!

Amazing the power of denial in the 95% Warren Gullible mind!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 02:02:10 AM
Whaley does not describe a blue jacket. That's a fact

 :D

Amazing the studied cluelessness of the 95% Warren Gullible mind!

Mr. Ball. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. Whaley. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. Ball. Look something like it? And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?
Mr. Whaley. He had this one on or the other one.
Mr. Ball. That is right.
Mr. Whaley. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.
Mr. Ball. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.
Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. You said that a jacket--
Mr. Whaley. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.
Mr. Ball. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.
Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 02:22:43 AM
:D

Amazing the studied cluelessness of the 95% Warren Gullible mind!

Mr. Ball. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. Whaley. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. Ball. Look something like it? And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?
Mr. Whaley. He had this one on or the other one.
Mr. Ball. That is right.
Mr. Whaley. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.
Mr. Ball. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.
Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. You said that a jacket--
Mr. Whaley. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.
Mr. Ball. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.
Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir.



Alan I refrain from using the WC testimonies as much as possible....LBJ's cover up committee's prime objective was to pin the rap on a dead and defenseless Lee Oswald. Using the liars information can only lead to confusion at best.  he Lner's love to quote information from LBJ's cover up committee because the prosecutors were unchallenged and they were able to put crap on the record that would never have made it into court in a legitimate court case.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 02:33:16 AM
Now!

Mr Roy Truly, as quoted in the New York Herald Tribune, 11/27/63, talking about Officer Baker:

(https://i.imgur.com/PhNVy22.jpg)

Ain't it interesting that the SS's own belief that Mr Oswald was seen SITTING in the lunchroom-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/0CaosuU.jpg)

-------------tallies so perfectly with what Mr Truly told the press at this time?

Friends, we are a long, long, long way away here from Officer Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit account:

"As we reached the 3rd or 4th floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man & he turned around & came back toward me."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on September 17, 2021, 02:37:58 AM
Bullsh*t to you too.
Whaley only describes the pants as faded blue and made of a khaki material. That's a fact.
He describes the jacket as being similar to the pants. That's a fact
If the jacket was the same as the pants, as in a uniform, he wouldn't have used the word "similar", he would have said it was the same.
Whaley does not describe a blue jacket. That's a fact
(and remember...you like to deal with facts)


Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street. ....

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket. I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. His shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2021, 02:38:33 AM
Alan Ford is desperately trying to bring back the topic. Kudos.
There are presently 3 threads discussing Whaley and Oswald's Jacket [been discussed for two years now]
Let's end those here  :)

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. 
Right...it all came back to him.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 04:17:21 AM
Jerry, Baker trip over his words when he testified before the WC.....   In recalling the scene to his minds eye, and  describing the the location where he called to the man who was sneaking away from the stairs . He said that it was dark in there by the elevators.     Which I'm sure you know is a sharp contrast to the well lit second floor lunchroom where he encountered Lee Oswald.

This is a VERY astute observation, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

Mr. Baker. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
(...)
Mr. Belin. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. Baker. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt. Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.


"That particular day", lol

This most certainly does NOT describe the lunchroom:

(https://i.imgur.com/3nm4qzU.jpg)

However! Has Officer Baker just given us an important clue as to which floor he really encountered a light-brown-jacket-wearing man who was walking away from the stairway?-----------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/E0yBJ1g.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on September 17, 2021, 02:52:05 PM
Alan Ford is desperately trying to bring back the topic. Kudos.
There are presently 3 threads discussing Whaley and Oswald's Jacket [been discussed for two years now]
Let's end those here  :)
Right...it all came back to him.

Jerry, this guy succinctly sums up, the problem of Whaley. He created the findagrave.com,   Whaley memorial page....
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley
William Wayne Whaley
BIRTH   19 Jun 1905

Whaley's lies are etched in stone.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51463685902_fc5036f8bc_h.jpg)

Whaley's hometown newspapers on Friday, June 26, 1908 :

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51423501506_c4aa12f6c6_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51422752002_0fb5e77d76_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 05:23:20 PM
Now!

Mr Roy Truly, as quoted in the New York Herald Tribune, 11/27/63, talking about Officer Baker:

(https://i.imgur.com/PhNVy22.jpg)

Ain't it interesting that the SS's own belief that Mr Oswald was seen SITTING in the lunchroom-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/0CaosuU.jpg)

-------------tallies so perfectly with what Mr Truly told the press at this time?

Friends, we are a long, long, long way away here from Officer Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit account:

"As we reached the 3rd or 4th floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man & he turned around & came back toward me."

A couple of weeks after the assassination,  Roy Truly was interviewed by a reporter from the magazine US News and the reporter quoted Truly as saying that Lee Oswald was sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom, drinking a coke, when DPD officer Baker confronted him.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 06:36:50 PM
This is a VERY astute observation, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

Mr. Baker. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
(...)
Mr. Belin. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. Baker. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt. Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.


"That particular day", lol

This most certainly does NOT describe the lunchroom:

(https://i.imgur.com/3nm4qzU.jpg)

However! Has Officer Baker just given us an important clue as to which floor he really encountered a light-brown-jacket-wearing man who was walking away from the stairway?-----------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/E0yBJ1g.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/E0yBJ1g.jpg)

The fourth floor??
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 06:40:48 PM
Now!

Mr Roy Truly, as quoted in the New York Herald Tribune, 11/27/63, talking about Officer Baker:

(https://i.imgur.com/PhNVy22.jpg)

Ain't it interesting that the SS's own belief that Mr Oswald was seen SITTING in the lunchroom-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/0CaosuU.jpg)

-------------tallies so perfectly with what Mr Truly told the press at this time?

Friends, we are a long, long, long way away here from Officer Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit account:

"As we reached the 3rd or 4th floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man & he turned around & came back toward me."

Imagine the NYTs getting a detail wrong! LOL.  And they had a "snack bar" at the TSBD?  Was that next to the sauna?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2021, 06:42:17 PM
A couple of weeks after the assassination,  Roy Truly was interviewed by a reporter from the magazine US News and the reporter quoted Truly as saying that Lee Oswald was sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom, drinking a coke, when DPD officer Baker confronted him.
It would not matter if LHO was standing up, sitting down or standing on his head...the idea that he just decided to run down to the lunchroom and calmly get a nice refreshing soda after supposedly shooting at the president and hiding a rifle is just plain silly.
Now I understand that Gerald Ford performed the feat of starting at the 6th floor stairs and clomped down to the 2nd floor lunchroom in 40 seconds. ....so what?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 06:51:13 PM
It would not matter if LHO was standing up, sitting down or standing on his head...the idea that he just decided to run down to the lunchroom and calmly get a nice refreshing soda after supposedly shooting at the president and hiding a rifle is just plain silly.
Now I understand that Gerald Ford performed the feat of starting at the 6th floor stairs and clomped down to the 2nd floor lunchroom in 40 seconds. ....so what?

The idea of the Boston bomber getting into a boat in someone's backyard is a silly idea.  Obviously, Oswald did not decide to run down to the lunchroom and buy a soda after shooting JFK.  He was heading down the stairs to escape, heard someone heading up the stairs, and he headed toward the lunchroom to avoid detection.  The soda is a prop just like the clipboard that he carrying around on the 6th floor to give him the appearance of having a reason to be there unless you think Old Lee was real thirsty and guzzled it because he is out the door of the building and on a bus down the street just minutes later with no soda.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2021, 07:01:22 PM
The idea of the Boston bomber getting into a boat in someone's backyard is a silly idea. Obviously, Oswald did not decide to run down to the lunchroom and buy a soda after shooting JFK.  He was heading down the stairs to escape, heard someone heading up the stairs, and he headed toward the lunchroom to avoid detection.  The soda is a prop just like the clipboard that he carrying around on the 6th floor to give him the appearance of having a reason to be there unless you think Old Lee was real thirsty and guzzled it because he is out the door of the building and on a bus down the street just minutes later with no soda.
  Ah the time traveling Richard Smith...shoulda been a writer for the Warren Report.
Quote
The soda was just a prop
:D
 The Boston bomber was --hiding. Not a silly idea...a desperate one. Or was the boat just a prop?
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 07:18:54 PM
It would not matter if LHO was standing up, sitting down or standing on his head...the idea that he just decided to run down to the lunchroom and calmly get a nice refreshing soda after supposedly shooting at the president and hiding a rifle is just plain silly.
Now I understand that Gerald Ford performed the feat of starting at the 6th floor stairs and clomped down to the 2nd floor lunchroom in 40 seconds. ....so what?

the idea that he just decided to run down to the lunchroom and calmly get a nice refreshing soda after supposedly shooting at the president and hiding a rifle is just plain silly.

This is one for " Ripley's Believe it or Not"

Believe it or not Jerry....When Curry first learned of Baker's encounter with Lee Oswald in the lunchroom.....he told reporters that Oswald was such a fiend that when Baker confronted him he was calmly drinking a Coca Cola just seconds after he had murdered the president.   That's the spin that Curry put on the lunchroom encounter.....and that caused a huge problem because Curry had acknowledged that Lee was DRINKING A COKE at the time that Baker burst into the lunchroom. When the WC "investigators" re-enacted  Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald's flight from the "Sniper's Nest" to the second floor lunchroom they discoveed that there simply wasn't enough time for Lee to have got the coke from the vending machine prior to Baker's arrival.
So Curry's  statement had to be expunged.....     

As you've pointed out the idea that Lee was calmly drinking a coke to celebrate his deed is completely insane ...but the fact that it happened, highlights the lengths they would go to to frame Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 07:41:45 PM
  Ah the time traveling Richard Smith...shoulda been a writer for the Warren Report. :D
 The Boston bomber was --hiding. Not a silly idea...a desperate one. Or was the boat just a prop?

This is not rocket science.  Oswald was attempting to avoid detection by exiting the stairs, entering the lunchroom, and appearing to be drinking a soda.  His pause for a soda was not part of a "plan" any more than the Boston bomber planned to hide in a boat.  Get it?  And what happened to Oswald's soda since he is making tracks for the bus within moments of his encounter with Baker.  Do you think he bought it in anticipation of leaving immediately to get a bus and tossed it?  It's never seen again by the witnesses who encounter him like Mrs. Reid. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 07:47:35 PM
the idea that he just decided to run down to the lunchroom and calmly get a nice refreshing soda after supposedly shooting at the president and hiding a rifle is just plain silly.

This is one for " Ripley's Believe it or Not"

Believe it or not Jerry....When Curry first learned of Baker's encounter with Lee Oswald in the lunchroom.....he told reporters that Oswald was such a fiend that when Baker confronted him he was calmly drinking a Coca Cola just seconds after he had murdered the president.   That's the spin that Curry put on the lunchroom encounter.....and that caused a huge problem because Curry had acknowledged that Lee was DRINKING A COKE at the time that Baker burst into the lunchroom. When the WC "investigators" re-enacted  Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald's flight from the "Sniper's Nest" to the second floor lunchroom they discoveed that there simply wasn't enough time for Lee to have got the coke from the vending machine prior to Baker's arrival.
So Curry's  statement had to be expunged.....     

As you've pointed out the idea that Lee was calmly drinking a coke to celebrate his deed is completely insane ...but the fact that it happened, highlights the lengths they would go to to frame Lee Oswald.

How is it a problem for Oswald to be drinking a soda?  He didn't shoot JFK and intend to head to the lunch room for a refreshing beverage break.  He ducked in there to avoid the folks coming up the stairs.  He is trying to hide and using the soda as a prop.  And it worked.  He got out of the building. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:01:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/E0yBJ1g.jpg)

The fourth floor??

Third!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:14:40 PM
Imagine the NYTs getting a detail wrong! LOL.

NYHT. Imagine Mr Smith getting a detail wrong! LOL.

The NYHT quote is of course perfectly accurate, as proved by the fact that the SS reenactment tallies so perfectly on this 'detail' with what Mr Truly is quoted here as saying  Thumb1:

Quote
And they had a "snack bar" at the TSBD?  Was that next to the sauna?

Wow, talk about desperate  ::)

The second-floor lunchroom is referred to as a "snack bar" in Mr Truly's 11/22 FBI interview report. Don't cry, Mr Smith!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:17:53 PM
It would not matter if LHO was standing up, sitting down or standing on his head...

It very much does matter if Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit gives us an 'employee' who was "walking away from the stairway"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:18:57 PM
A couple of weeks after the assassination,  Roy Truly was interviewed by a reporter from the magazine US News and the reporter quoted Truly as saying that Lee Oswald was sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom, drinking a coke, when DPD officer Baker confronted him.

Thank you, Mr Cakebread  Thumb1:

Where did you come across this interview?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:23:52 PM
the idea that he just decided to run down to the lunchroom and calmly get a nice refreshing soda after supposedly shooting at the president and hiding a rifle is just plain silly.

This is one for " Ripley's Believe it or Not"

Believe it or not Jerry....When Curry first learned of Baker's encounter with Lee Oswald in the lunchroom.....he told reporters that Oswald was such a fiend that when Baker confronted him he was calmly drinking a Coca Cola just seconds after he had murdered the president.   That's the spin that Curry put on the lunchroom encounter.....and that caused a huge problem because Curry had acknowledged that Lee was DRINKING A COKE at the time that Baker burst into the lunchroom. When the WC "investigators" re-enacted  Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald's flight from the "Sniper's Nest" to the second floor lunchroom they discoveed that there simply wasn't enough time for Lee to have got the coke from the vending machine prior to Baker's arrival.
So Curry's  statement had to be expunged.....     

As you've pointed out the idea that Lee was calmly drinking a coke to celebrate his deed is completely insane ...but the fact that it happened, highlights the lengths they would go to to frame Lee Oswald.

On 11/22 Chief Curry told reporters Mr Oswald had been confronted by a cop at the front entrance of the building just after the shooting

On 11/23 Chief Curry told reporters Mr Oswald had been seen, along with several other employees, by a cop who looked into the second-floor lunchroom

Officer Baker did indeed see Mr Oswald, in the midst of several other employees, with a coke in his hand just after the shoooting---------------and this happened by the front door

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:25:40 PM
This is not rocket science.  Oswald was attempting to avoid detection by exiting the stairs, entering the lunchroom, and appearing to be drinking a soda.

So he sat down at one of the tables, as per SS reenactment film and Mr Truly's initial story?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 08:34:33 PM
First he switched the lights off!

The fiend!!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2021, 09:13:19 PM
It very much does matter if Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit gives us an 'employee' who was "walking away from the stairway"
Alan Ford gave us this observation-----
Quote
If you believe that 'a man walking away from the stairway' on 'the third or fourth floor' was Mr Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom, then you'll believe anything.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2253.msg64940.html#msg64940

That is based on Baker's affidavit...  https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Quote
Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street ..... I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
Baker was perhaps in error on his stair climbing count but who knows?
There is a M L Baker hand written statement--- something after "second floor" (sic) was crossed out. "Drinking a coke" was also crossed out [for some reason] And this was right before the release of the Report.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aBTInu_OfUU/WV3x3uWqBAI/AAAAAAABMRw/_g6vClvxpJQpknWKuttxfSDWn9kT8geMQCLcBGAs/s1600/Marrion-Baker-9-23-64-Affidavit.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2021, 10:02:34 PM
Alan Ford gave us this observation-----https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2253.msg64940.html#msg64940

That is based on Baker's affidavit...  https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htmBaker was perhaps in error on his stair climbing count but who knows?
There is a M L Baker hand written statement--- something after "second floor" (sic) was crossed out. "Drinking a coke" was also crossed out [for some reason] And this was right before the release of the Report.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aBTInu_OfUU/WV3x3uWqBAI/AAAAAAABMRw/_g6vClvxpJQpknWKuttxfSDWn9kT8geMQCLcBGAs/s1600/Marrion-Baker-9-23-64-Affidavit.png)

There is a M L Baker hand written statement--- something after "second floor" (sic) was crossed out. "Drinking a coke" was also crossed out [for some reason] And this was right before the release of the Report.


This affidavit is nothing but a cheap lawyer's trick......They knew that it had been firmly established that Baker had encountered Lee In the lunchroom DRINKING A COKE, and in the first days following the murder of John Kennedy they used the "Drinking a coke " issue as a way of showing what a monster and inhuman fiend Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( Booooo Hissss) was.

So since that was firmly planted in the public's mind they couldn't simply erase the event and say that it never happened.....They need to expunge it in an official affidavit.    Thus they had an FBI agent write the affidavit to look like Baker had written it,    The crossing out of the words "drinking a coke" was left legible so it looked like Baker had revised the affidavit.    There was no reason for the crossing out of words...They could easily have scrapped that piece of paper and re-written the affidavit, but that would not have have officially expunged the Drinking a coke issue.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 10:34:19 PM

There is a M L Baker hand written statement--- something after "second floor" (sic) was crossed out. "Drinking a coke" was also crossed out [for some reason] And this was right before the release of the Report.


This affidavit is nothing but a cheap lawyer's trick......They knew that it had been firmly established that Baker had encountered Lee In the lunchroom DRINKING A COKE, and in the first days following the murder of John Kennedy they used the "Drinking a coke " issue as a way of showing what a monster and inhuman fiend Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( Booooo Hissss) was.

So since that was firmly planted in the public's mind they couldn't simply erase the event and say that it never happened.....They need to expunge it in an official affidavit.    Thus they had an FBI agent write the affidavit to look like Baker had written it,    The crossing out of the words "drinking a coke" was left legible so it looked like Baker had revised the affidavit.    There was no reason for the crossing out of words...They could easily have scrapped that piece of paper and re-written the affidavit, but that would not have have officially expunged the Drinking a coke issue.

The claim that Oswald's presence in the lunchroom with a coke somehow means he did not assassinate JFK because he would not have paused to have a beverage is absurd because no one, including the WC, suggested that Oswald's presence in the lunchroom was planned.  He headed there to avoid detection on the stairs.  He did it out of necessity.  Not because he was thirsty.  If he had a soda, it was merely to give him an excuse for being there.  And there is no more sign of the soda when he exits the lunchroom moments later to encounter Mrs. Reid.  If he had one, it was just a prop.  And he tossed it after Baker left in his flight from the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 10:44:52 PM
The claim that Oswald's presence in the lunchroom with a coke somehow means he did not assassinate JFK because he would not have paused to have a beverage is absurd because no one, including the WC, suggested that Oswald's presence in the lunchroom was planned.  He headed there to avoid detection on the stairs.  He did out of necessity.  No because he was thirsty.

All of which tells us that Mr Smith still can't explain the match between this-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/kOYwUcr.jpg)

------------------and this----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/V2ovLT9.jpg)

Quote
If he had a soda, it was merely to give him an excuse for being there.  And there is no more sign of the soda when he exits the lunchroom moments later to encounter Mrs. Reid.

Mr Smith gets ANOTHER detail wrong. I'm in shock!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 10:48:18 PM
All of which tells us that Mr Smith still can't explain the match between this-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/kOYwUcr.jpg)

------------------and this----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/V2ovLT9.jpg)

Mr Smith gets ANOTHER detail wrong. I'm in shock!  :D

Please try to express this in terms of a coherent point.  You have posted a picture of a man sitting down, what is appears to be an incomplete newspaper clip, and a point about Mrs. Reid.  What detail here is wrong?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 10:54:46 PM
Please try to express this in terms of a coherent point.  You have posted a picture of a man sitting down, what is appears to be an incomplete newspaper clip,

~Grin~

You can't think of a coherent Warren Gullible explanation for the match between what that frame shows and what Mr Truly is quoted as saying, and so you try to buy time by playing dumb-----------------smart move, Mr Smith!  Thumb1:

Quote
and a point about Mrs. Reid.  What detail here is wrong?

Oh, just your sublimely silly claim that "there is no more sign of the soda when he exits the lunchroom moments later to encounter Mrs. Reid"! :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 10:58:34 PM
~Grin~

You can't think of a coherent Warren Gullible explanation for the match between what that frame shows and what Mr Truly is quoted as saying, and so you try to buy time by playing dumb-----------------smart move, Mr Smith!  Thumb1:

Oh, just your sublimely silly claim that "there is no more sign of the soda when he exits the lunchroom moments later to encounter Mrs. Reid"! :D

A full coke.  And he is on the bus moments later without it.  Where did it go?  Did he drink it or discarded a full coke before reaching the bus moments later.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 11:01:45 PM
A full coke.

Which you referred to two posts back as "no more sign of the soda"  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 11:12:25 PM
Which you referred to two posts back as "no more sign of the soda"  :D

Yes, where did it go?  If Oswald has a full coke while exiting the lunchroom but no coke moments later while walking to the bus that means it is gone.  Right?  He didn't put it in his pants pocket.  So Oswald bought a coke planning to immediately leave the building to get on a bus moments later without it?  Do you think he threw away a full coke that he just bought or that he guzzled the entire thing while walking to a bus and somehow discards the bottle before he gets on the bus moments later?  How fast can you drink a full coke while walking?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 11:18:46 PM
Yes, where did it go?  If Oswald has a full coke while exiting the lunchroom but no coke moments later

Moments later, lol

But all kudos to you, Mr Smith, for putting your hands up like a man and saying, 'Yeah, I goofed real bad when I described an invisible full coke'  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2021, 11:21:51 PM
Moments later, lol

But all kudos to you, Mr Smith, for putting your hands up like a man and saying, 'Yeah, I goofed real bad when I described an invisible full coke'  Thumb1:

Try to answer the question.  How long do you think it took Oswald to reach the bus if he left the building and walked to it a short distance down the street where he got on?  Compare that to how long it takes to drink a full coke while walking and discard it before reaching that point. So what happened to it?  Did he immediately discard a full coke after buying it or not?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2021, 11:33:48 PM
Try to answer the question.  How long do you think it took Oswald to reach the bus if he left the building and walked to it a short distance down the street where he got on?

He certainly didn't leave the building within moments, lol. He stayed at least long enough to point a credentials-flashing crewcut man to the nearest telephone

Quote
Compare that to how long it takes to drink a full coke while walking and discard it before reaching that point. So what happened to it?  Did he immediately discard a full coke after buying it or not?

He presumably finished his coke out on the front steps, which is where he was for the P. Parade. He had the coke in his hand when Officer Baker went tearing up those steps right after the shooting.

As for where he left the empty bottle, who cares? Could have been anywhere

Now a question for you, Mr Smith, lest you think your lame attempt to wriggle out of the original problem is going to work!

Why do we have Mr Truly describing to the press Mr Oswald sitting at one of the tables in the lunchroom AND that very scene reflected in the SS's filmed recreation of Mr Oswald's alleged descent from 6 to lunchroom?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 18, 2021, 04:55:10 PM
He certainly didn't leave the building within moments, lol. He stayed at least long enough to point a credentials-flashing crewcut man to the nearest telephone

He presumably finished his coke out on the front steps, which is where he was for the P. Parade. He had the coke in his hand when Officer Baker went tearing up those steps right after the shooting.

As for where he left the empty bottle, who cares? Could have been anywhere

Now a question for you, Mr Smith, lest you think your lame attempt to wriggle out of the original problem is going to work!

Why do we have Mr Truly describing to the press Mr Oswald sitting at one of the tables in the lunchroom AND that very scene reflected in the SS's filmed recreation of Mr Oswald's alleged descent from 6 to lunchroom?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!  Thumb1:

Psssst Mr. "Smith".....   The old Coca Cola bottles were rather small ( 8 oz  ?)   It was very easy to empty the bottle in just a couple of gulps....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2021, 05:29:03 PM
He certainly didn't leave the building within moments, lol. He stayed at least long enough to point a credentials-flashing crewcut man to the nearest telephone

He presumably finished his coke out on the front steps, which is where he was for the P. Parade. He had the coke in his hand when Officer Baker went tearing up those steps right after the shooting.

As for where he left the empty bottle, who cares? Could have been anywhere

Now a question for you, Mr Smith, lest you think your lame attempt to wriggle out of the original problem is going to work!

Why do we have Mr Truly describing to the press Mr Oswald sitting at one of the tables in the lunchroom AND that very scene reflected in the SS's filmed recreation of Mr Oswald's alleged descent from 6 to lunchroom?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!  Thumb1:

I don't think it makes any difference whether Oswald was sitting or standing.  That is the kind of pedantic distinction that CTers make while ignoring actual evidence like Oswald's rifle being found on the 6th floor with fired bullet casings from that rifle by the open window from which witnesses saw a rifle at the time of the assassination. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2021, 05:39:27 PM
Psssst Mr. "Smith".....   The old Coca Cola bottles were rather small ( 8 oz  ?)   It was very easy to empty the bottle in just a couple of gulps....

Give it a try within the timeframe.  Oswald has no bottle when he reaches the bus only minutes later.  He has discarded the Coke before reaching the bus.  He is walking.  How much time does he have to finish his coke in that timeframe?  A couple minutes.  The coke is a prop to give the appearance of having some reason to be in the lunchroom since he is not eating lunch and standing there without purpose is going to look suspicious.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2021, 06:20:45 PM
I don't think it makes any difference whether Oswald was sitting or standing.

Oh but it very much does matter if the story changed so dramatically, as it did!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2021, 06:22:49 PM
Give it a try within the timeframe.  Oswald has no bottle when he reaches the bus only minutes later.

And so Mr Smith casually goes from talking about "moments" to talking about "minutes"  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 18, 2021, 09:16:07 PM
Who actually saw Oswald get on the bus minutes (plus a fraction) later?

Who actually saw Oswald get on the bus minutes (plus a fraction) later?

Cecil Mc Watters said that he saw Lee climb aboard the bus.....And Lee said that he had boarded a bus....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
Cecil Mc Watters said that he saw Lee climb aboard the bus.....

No, Mr McWatters said he saw a man who might have been Mr Oswald climb aboard the bus

Quote
And Lee said that he had boarded a bus....

No, we don't know that Mr Oswald said this
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2021, 10:11:26 PM
Psssst Mr. "Smith".....   The old Coca Cola bottles were rather small ( 8 oz  ?)   It was very easy to empty the bottle in just a couple of gulps....
I saw the Fat Lady show at the State Fair when I was a kid...For her performance every half hour, she would drink a case [24] of Coke. Actually, the small Coke was 6 1/2 ozs. She would glug one down and then tell jokes in between :)
Quote
Original Coke bottle size
 By 1955, Coca-Cola started to offer different sizes in addition to the standard 6.5-ounce bottles. They offered 10-, 12-, and 16-ounce bottles. They also introduced the very first king-size bottle at 26 ounces.
https://soyummy.com/coke-bottle-history/

Who actually saw Oswald get on the bus minutes (plus a fraction) later?
Who would walk up 6 blocks of obviously snarled one way traffic just to get on a bus and then expect that bus to move along normally?

Quote
And Lee said that he had boarded a bus....
No, we don't know that Mr Oswald said this
No...we actually don't.

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 18, 2021, 11:09:23 PM
No, Mr McWatters said he saw a man who might have been Mr Oswald climb aboard the bus

No, we don't know that Mr Oswald said this

Oh yes we do know, that Lee told Fritz that he boarded a bus....Read Thomas Kelley's report on page 626 of the Warren Report.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2021, 11:30:04 PM
This affidavit is nothing but a cheap lawyer's trick......They knew that it had been firmly established that Baker had encountered Lee In the lunchroom DRINKING A COKE, and in the first days following the murder of John Kennedy they used the "Drinking a coke " issue as a way of showing what a monster and inhuman fiend [Oswald] was.

The story that initially went out across the planet [even years later] is that Oswald was drinking a coke and eating  fried chicken in his sniper's nest while waiting for the parade to come by.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2021, 11:42:00 PM
Oh yes we do know, that Lee told Fritz that he boarded a bus....Read Thomas Kelley's report on page 626 of the Warren Report.

No, all we know is that Inspector Kelley's report makes this claim about what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2021, 11:59:15 PM
Oh yes we do know, that Lee told Fritz that he boarded a bus....Read Thomas Kelley's report on page 626 of the Warren Report.
Oswald was giving the Feds a song and dance....
Quote
On November 23 at 10:25 a. m. Oswald was brought from the jail for an interview. Present at this time was FBI agent Jim Bookhout, Forrest Sorrells, special agent and in charge of Secret Service, United States Marshal Robert Nash, and Homicide officers. During this interview I talked to Oswald about his leaving the building, and he told me he left by bus and rode to a stop near home and walked on to his house. At the time of Oswald's arrest he had a bus transfer in his pocket. He admitted this was given to him by the bus driver when he rode the bus after leaving the building.
Quote
Oswald stated he then went home by bus and changed his clothes and went to a movie.
Quote
In response to questions put by Captain Fritz, Oswald said that immediately after having left the building where he worked, he went by bus to the theater where he was arrested;
https://australianpolitics.com/warren/app11.shtml

Oswald's story kept changing---
Neither Fritz nor Kelley ever saw Oswald get on a bus so ...How do we really know?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 12:09:19 AM
Oswald was giving the Feds a song and dance....https://australianpolitics.com/warren/app11.shtml

Oswald's story kept changing---
Neither Fritz nor Kelley ever saw Oswald get on a bus so ...How do we really know?

There are some things that just ring of the truth.....Lee simply said that he boarded a bus but it got stuck in traffic so he got off and walked to the Greyhound taxi stand and hired a CITY cab to take him to the rooming house. He said that the fare was 85 cents.

I'm not going to debate nonsense....   If you have evidence that Lee lied about this...then present it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 12:15:55 AM
There are some things that just ring of the truth.....Lee simply said that he boarded a bus but it got stuck in traffic so he got off and walked to the Greyhound taxi stand and hired a CITY cab to take him to the rooming house. He said that the fare was 85 cents.

No, according to those 'investigators' present at his interrogations Mr Oswald simply lied about this on the Friday and then 'admitted' to it the following day.

Not at all hard to believe the 'investigators' simply lied about what he said---------------especially when we KNOW they buried his claim that he visited the second-floor lunchroom BEFORE the P. Parade and after that "went outside to watch P. Parade"

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 12:16:20 AM
Oswald was giving the Feds a song and dance....https://australianpolitics.com/warren/app11.shtml

Oswald's story kept changing---
Neither Fritz nor Kelley ever saw Oswald get on a bus so ...How do we really know?


Oswald was giving the Feds a song and dance...

Riiiiiight!..... Lee wanted to cut his throat and was simply lying about the event that was a strong alibi for his whereabouts at the time that JD Tippit was shot.      Are you saying that Lee had a death wish, and he wanted to be convicted of the murder of Tippit?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 12:21:36 AM

Oswald was giving the Feds a song and dance...

Riiiiiight!..... Lee wanted to cut his throat and was simply lying about the event that was a strong alibi for his whereabouts at the time that JD Tippit was shot.      Are you saying that Lee had a death wish, and he wanted to be convicted of the murder of Tippit?

So you're saying the impression that Mr Oswald kept changing his story-----------i.e. lying-------------was created by dishonest 'investigators' who were present at his interrogations?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 12:32:56 AM
So you're saying the impression that Mr Oswald kept changing his story-----------i.e. lying-------------was created by dishonest 'investigators' who were present at his interrogations?

Mr Oswald kept changing his story

That's a gross exaggeration.... Lee Never "Kept changing his story".... The way the reports read indicate that Lee simply told Fritz that he had traveled from the TSBD to the theater by bus.....But Fritz had already talked to Whaley and he believed that Whaley had in fact transported Lee to Oakcliff immediately after the assassination....and he was trying to trap Lee in a lie....But Lee simply admitted that yes, he had ridden in a taxi from the Greyhound depot to the rooming house.   The entire misinformation to the correction appears to have happened in a short interval...during the Saturday morning interrogation session..   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 12:44:48 AM
Mr Oswald kept changing his story

That's a gross exaggeration.... Lee Never "Kept changing his story"....

I never said he did. Re-read what I wrote!

Quote
The way the reports read indicate that Lee simply told Fritz that he had traveled from the TSBD to the theater by bus.....

Nonsense, Mr Cakebread! Mr Oswald is quoted as having stated in the very first interrogation that he went HOME by bus (where he changed some clothing) before going to a movie.

The suggestion being put forward in this thread is as follows:

Whatever Mr Oswald really did tell them, they kept evolving the story they put in his mouth so as to fit the story they were writing and modifying. If that lent the impression of a suspect who kept changing his story, all the better. Mr Oswald in fact made a simple claim and stuck to it across all of his interrogations. That simple claim being known to be veracious AND disastrous for the Tippit timeline, it was suppressed.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 19, 2021, 12:54:09 AM
Quote
Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.
Mr. BELIN - What about the man who was driving the car?
Mr. CRAIG - Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. CRAIG - I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him what I had saw. And he took me in his office---I believe it was his office---it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk---beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the office.
And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."

And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.
Mr. BELIN - What was he wearing-or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Mr. CRAIG - No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward.
Mr. BELIN - Then, did you say anything more?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I then left.
Mr. BELIN - Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "This was the man,"--or words to that effect?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes.

Mr. BELIN - Did Captain Fritz say anything more.
Mr. CRAIG - No; I don't believe---not while I was there.
There are photographs that support this testimony.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 01:08:39 AM
There are photographs that support this testimony.

I believe this may well be the man
-----------seen by Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig getting into the Rambler
-----------seen by several witnesses (incl. Mr Amos Euins) at the sixth floor SE window
-----------caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairway on the "third or fourth floor"
-----------seen by Tippit witnesses

(https://i.imgur.com/M0NBwmV.jpg)

Cf?

(https://i.imgur.com/ikM4qtS.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 02:03:28 AM
No, according to those 'investigators' present at his interrogations Mr Oswald simply lied about this on the Friday and then 'admitted' to it the following day.

Not at all hard to believe the 'investigators' simply lied about what he said---------------especially when we KNOW they buried his claim that he visited the second-floor lunchroom BEFORE the P. Parade and after that "went outside to watch P. Parade"

Mr Oswald simply lied about this on the Friday

Please present the evidence about the discussion of Lee's mode of transportation that occurred on Friday.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 02:07:38 AM
Mr Oswald simply lied about this on the Friday

 ::)

Here's the full sentence I wrote, Mr Cakebread:

"No, according to those 'investigators' present at his interrogations Mr Oswald simply lied about this on the Friday and then 'admitted' to it the following day."

Quote
Please present the evidence about the discussion of Lee's mode of transportation that occurred on Friday.

Read ALL the interrogation reports and stop cherry-picking the bits you like!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 03:12:00 AM
I never said he did. Re-read what I wrote!

Nonsense, Mr Cakebread! Mr Oswald is quoted as having stated in the very first interrogation that he went HOME by bus (where he changed some clothing) before going to a movie.

The suggestion being put forward in this thread is as follows:

Whatever Mr Oswald really did tell them, they kept evolving the story they put in his mouth so as to fit the story they were writing and modifying. If that lent the impression of a suspect who kept changing his story, all the better. Mr Oswald in fact made a simple claim and stuck to it across all of his interrogations. That simple claim being known to be veracious AND disastrous for the Tippit timeline, it was suppressed.

Nonsense, Mr Cakebread! Mr Oswald is quoted as having stated in the very first interrogation that he went HOME by bus (where he changed some clothing) before going to a movie.

No, I don't believe Lee said anything about his mode of transport during any interrogation on Friday.    I've looked fpr any such staatement by Lee Oswald, and I can't find any mention of his mode of transport....  I've got to tell you Mr Ford....It pisses me off to be sent looking for information that doesn't exist.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 03:19:39 AM
I believe this may well be the man
-----------seen by Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig getting into the Rambler
-----------seen by several witnesses (incl. Mr Amos Euins) at the sixth floor SE window
-----------caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairway on the "third or fourth floor"
-----------seen by Tippit witnesses

(https://i.imgur.com/M0NBwmV.jpg)

Cf?

I

(https://i.imgur.com/ikM4qtS.jpg)

  I concur.... He certainly matches the description that Baker gave for the man that he encountered on one of the upper floors of the TSBD.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 10:30:15 AM
Nonsense, Mr Cakebread! Mr Oswald is quoted as having stated in the very first interrogation that he went HOME by bus (where he changed some clothing) before going to a movie.

No, I don't believe Lee said anything about his mode of transport during any interrogation on Friday.    I've looked fpr any such staatement by Lee Oswald, and I can't find any mention of his mode of transport....  I've got to tell you Mr Ford....It pisses me off to be sent looking for information that doesn't exist.

Good grief!

"Oswald stated he then went home by bus and changed his clothes and went to a movie" (Bookhout/Hosty report on first interrogation 11/22/63)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on September 19, 2021, 11:51:18 AM
Good grief!

"Oswald stated he then went home by bus and changed his clothes and went to a movie" (Bookhout/Hosty report on first interrogation 11/22/63)

I thought that nobody behind closed doors told the truth but based on numerical order, you seem to pick and choose what you want to believe? How odd!

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 19, 2021, 02:57:27 PM
Good grief!

"Oswald stated he then went home by bus and changed his clothes and went to a movie" (Bookhout/Hosty report on first interrogation 11/22/63)

No record other than hearsay (various reports) that Oswald said anything about what he did.

That's the problem with the DPD. No official record. How convenient.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 03:59:09 PM
Good grief!

"Oswald stated he then went home by bus and changed his clothes and went to a movie" (Bookhout/Hosty report on first interrogation 11/22/63)

Whatever Mr Oswald really did tell them, they kept evolving the story they put in his mouth so as to fit the story they were writing and modifying. If that lent the impression of a suspect who kept changing his story, all the better. Mr Oswald in fact made a simple claim and stuck to it across all of his interrogations. That simple claim being known to be veracious AND disastrous for the Tippit timeline, it was suppressed.


Le did NOT "keep changing his story".... In fact he simply said that he went home by bus...That wasn't totally accurate but I don't believe that it was intended to be a blatant lie.... Lee simply didn't see the point in describing the details of how he traveled to Oakcliff.   

And to be totally honest ...he MAY not have wanted to reveal that he was in a hurry to get to the theater, because he wasn't going to the theater to simply watch an old war movie.   He was going there to meet his handler and start his sojourn to Cuba.

If he had told Fritz that he had hired a Taxi to take him to his room, naturally Fritz would have asked him why he was in such a hurry  ......and why did he leave the area at the TSBD when there was so much mesmerizing activity happening there.

But back to the basic  ..... Lee DID NOT "keep changing his story"    When Fritz asked him if he had ridden in a taxi, he readily admitted that he had in fact taken a taxi to the rooming house.     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 19, 2021, 04:34:31 PM
No record other than hearsay (various reports) that Oswald said anything about what he did. That's the problem with the DPD. No official record. How convenient.
DPD didn't have a tape recorder [they said]. Neither did the FBI? The Secret Service? No one went home to get one.
Too much trouble ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 06:22:38 PM
A couple of court reporters could have been called in and would have done the job.

It was a deliberate choice not to have an authentic record of what was being said.

Elementary, my dear Watson!

It's much more difficult to alter tape recordings than hand scribbled notes....and they sure as hell didn't want any copies of any tape recording to be heard by the public.

The big problem with exposing the truth is the fact that so few will accept that the investigators were the conspirators.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 08:21:17 PM
Whatever Mr Oswald really did tell them, they kept evolving the story they put in his mouth so as to fit the story they were writing and modifying. If that lent the impression of a suspect who kept changing his story, all the better. Mr Oswald in fact made a simple claim and stuck to it across all of his interrogations. That simple claim being known to be veracious AND disastrous for the Tippit timeline, it was suppressed.


Le did NOT "keep changing his story".... In fact he simply said that he went home by bus...That wasn't totally accurate but I don't believe that it was intended to be a blatant lie.... Lee simply didn't see the point in describing the details of how he traveled to Oakcliff.   

And to be totally honest ...he MAY not have wanted to reveal that he was in a hurry to get to the theater, because he wasn't going to the theater to simply watch an old war movie.   He was going there to meet his handler and start his sojourn to Cuba.

If he had told Fritz that he had hired a Taxi to take him to his room, naturally Fritz would have asked him why he was in such a hurry  ......and why did he leave the area at the TSBD when there was so much mesmerizing activity happening there.

But back to the basic  ..... Lee DID NOT "keep changing his story"    When Fritz asked him if he had ridden in a taxi, he readily admitted that he had in fact taken a taxi to the rooming house.   

~Sigh~

You have once again ignored my opening words above, Mr Cakebread: "Whatever Mr Oswald really did tell them, ..."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 08:23:06 PM
I thought that nobody behind closed doors told the truth but based on numerical order, you seem to pick and choose what you want to believe? How odd!

JohnM

~Grin~

Mr Cakebread claimed that no Friday interrogation reports had Mr Oswald stating he went home. I posted the relevant quotation from the Bookhout/Hosty report to correct his error.

Do try to keep up in future, Mr Mytton!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 08:23:36 PM
No record other than hearsay (various reports) that Oswald said anything about what he did.

That's the problem with the DPD. No official record. How convenient.

Indeed, Mr Mitcham!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2021, 08:25:22 PM
It's much more difficult to alter tape recordings than hand scribbled notes....and they sure as hell didn't want any copies of any tape recording to be heard by the public.

The big problem with exposing the truth is the fact that so few will accept that the investigators were the conspirators.

The 'investigators' certainly conspired to pin this double crime on Mr Oswald and Mr Oswald alone. However this does NOT at all necessarily mean they were in on the assassination conspiracy itself

It is highly unlikely that there was any intention by the assassination conspirators to set up Mr Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2021, 11:19:02 PM
The 'investigators' certainly conspired to pin this double crime on Mr Oswald and Mr Oswald alone. However this does NOT at all necessarily mean they were in on the assassination conspiracy itself

It is highly unlikely that there was any intention by the assassination conspirators to set up Mr Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter


Why highly unlikely???.....    Don't you believe that they would have a patsy ready to be the scapegoat?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on September 20, 2021, 12:59:52 AM
I believe this may well be the man
-----------seen by Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig getting into the Rambler
-----------seen by several witnesses (incl. Mr Amos Euins) at the sixth floor SE window
-----------caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairway on the "third or fourth floor"
-----------seen by Tippit witnesses

(https://i.imgur.com/M0NBwmV.jpg)

Cf?

(https://i.imgur.com/ikM4qtS.jpg)

An article on Masen

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1994/08/07/the-fourth-tramp/1f58fbe9-a0fa-4fc2-8ebf-d62694845bbe/
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 20, 2021, 09:29:05 AM

Why highly unlikely???.....    Don't you believe that they would have a patsy ready to be the scapegoat?

If by 'they' you mean the assassination conspirators rather than the post-hoc 'investigators', then the evidence is they made no effort to set Mr Oswald up as a gunman, let alone a lone nut gunman. That was the impossible job of the 'investigation'. Which is why the Warren Report is such a joke!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2021, 06:26:10 PM
If by 'they' you mean the assassination conspirators rather than the post-hoc 'investigators', then the evidence is they made no effort to set Mr Oswald up as a gunman, let alone a lone nut gunman. That was the impossible job of the 'investigation'. Which is why the Warren Report is such a joke!

If by 'they' you mean the assassination conspirators rather than the post-hoc 'investigators',

"Conspirators" ----- "Investigators"    Is there a difference?      Some men wore both hats.....

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 20, 2021, 10:41:30 PM
If by 'they' you mean the assassination conspirators rather than the post-hoc 'investigators',

"Conspirators" ----- "Investigators"    Is there a difference?      Some men wore both hats.....

As usual, Mr Cakebread, you start with a conclusion and take it merrily from there
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 22, 2021, 02:40:37 AM
If by 'they' you mean the assassination conspirators rather than the post-hoc 'investigators',

"Conspirators" ----- "Investigators"    Is there a difference?      Some men wore both hats.....

Other than Fritz, I can't really see anyone else who fits the bill.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 22, 2021, 03:18:03 AM
Other than Fritz, I can't really see anyone else who fits the bill.

Well one in a key position is enough ....But have you ever checked out Gerald Hill?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 22, 2021, 03:36:20 AM
Well one in a key position is enough ....But have you ever checked out Gerald Hill?

My definition of "conspirator" is someone who knew what was going to happen that day,
Hill doesn't fit the bill for that.
But you are quite correct, one in a key position is enough.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Donald Roberdeau on September 22, 2021, 10:40:39 AM
I think someone needs to be getting in touch with Mr Roberdeau.

 .... Good Day Dan.... Perhaps someone was mis-identifying that the "Thornton" road sign on an 11-22-63 map was the "Stemmons" road sign. The closest edge of the "Thornton" sign, to the westernmost side of the TSBD front door entrance steps, was a bit over 126 feet, = 42 yards. (Elm Street was nearly exactly 40' wide)

Best Regards in Research, Don
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 22, 2021, 06:21:03 PM
.... Good Day Dan.... Perhaps someone was mis-identifying that the "Thornton" road sign on an 11-22-63 map was the "Stemmons" road sign. The closest edge of the "Thornton" sign, to the westernmost side of the TSBD front door entrance steps, was a bit over 126 feet, = 42 yards. (Elm Street was nearly exactly 40' wide)

Best Regards in Research, Don

Hi Don,

This was from quite a while ago.
As I remember I had a couple of schematic drawings of Dealey Plaza that agreed with each other in the scale they were using but disagreed with your map.
If I remember correctly it turned out these schematic drawings were wrong and your map was right.

Is there a latest update for your map and, out of interest, do you agree with the identification of the four ladies standing together wearing head scarves as Calvery, Hicks, Reed and Westbrook?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 22, 2021, 09:38:32 PM
Well one in a key position is enough ....But have you ever checked out Gerald Hill?
W R Westbrook?....Kenneth Croy?....Harry Olsen?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 22, 2021, 11:56:01 PM
Question!

Why is Mr Bill Shelley's name handwritten at the top of an interrogation report that doesn't once mention his name?

(https://i.imgur.com/aA3TYPY.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2021, 12:39:06 AM
Question!

Why is Mr Bill Shelley's name handwritten at the top of an interrogation report that doesn't once mention his name?

(https://i.imgur.com/aA3TYPY.jpg)

Now!

The above interrogation report makes no mention of Mr Shelley. However, Mr Shelley's name is handwritten in, indicating that he is in some IMPORTANT way relevant to things said in Mr Oswald's first interrogation session.

Well! The above report is followed up with a report on the SAME interrogation session only this time the report is written by Agent BOOKHOUT alone-----------------it is not a JOINT report, like with the first report.

However! As we discovered in 2019, Agent HOSTY---------co-author of the JOINT report above----------ALSO wrote a SOLO report, BEFORE Agent Hosty did, on that SAME first interrogation. Agent Hosty's original report records with perfect clarity that Mr Oswald stated that he
--------visited the second-floor lunchroom for a Coke BEFORE the P. Parade (NO mention of any officer-'n'-Truly encounter there!)
--------then went downstairs to one to eat his lunch
--------"Then went outside to watch P. Parade"

Mr Oswald, in that first interrogation session, named Mr Shelley (his supervisor, whom he had seen at City Hall shortly before his interrogation) as one of the people he was near as he watched the P. Parade and heard the shots. He can have fully expected Mr Shelley to confirm his presence on the steps.

Unlike in the JOINT interrogation report (by Agents Bookhout & Hosty), the Bookhout SOLO report DOES mention Mr Shelley, and in a way that makes his being named by Mr Oswald SAFE, i.e. in a way that reinforces the fake new timeframe that has been given to Mr Oswald's claims:
--------visited the second-floor lunchroom for a Coke DURING WHICH VISIT a cop came in with Mr Truly
--------then went downstairs to eat lunch
--------Then went outside and stood around with Mr Shelley, who indicated work would not be resumed for the rest of the day

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home.

This is the switcheroo, folks:
Then went outside to watch P. Parade (Hosty solo report)-------------------->Then went outside several minutes after the P. Parade (Bookhout solo report)


 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 24, 2021, 01:28:56 AM
Now!

The above interrogation report makes no mention of Mr Shelley. However, Mr Shelley's name is handwritten in, indicating that he is in some IMPORTANT way relevant to things said in Mr Oswald's first interrogation session.

Well! The above report is followed up with a report on the SAME interrogation session only this time the report is written by Agent BOOKHOUT alone-----------------it is not a JOINT report, like with the first report.

However! As we discovered in 2019, Agent HOSTY---------co-author of the JOINT report above----------ALSO wrote a SOLO report, BEFORE Agent Hosty did, on that SAME first interrogation. Agent Hosty's original report records with perfect clarity that Mr Oswald stated that he
--------visited the second-floor lunchroom for a Coke BEFORE the P. Parade (NO mention of any officer-'n'-Truly encounter there!)
--------then went downstairs to one to eat his lunch
--------"Then went outside to watch P. Parade"

Mr Oswald, in that first interrogation session, named Mr Shelley (his supervisor, whom he had seen at City Hall shortly before his interrogation) as one of the people he was near as he watched the P. Parade and heard the shots. He can have fully expected Mr Shelley to confirm his presence on the steps.

Unlike in the JOINT interrogation report (by Agents Bookhout & Hosty), the Bookhout SOLO report DOES mention Mr Shelley, and in a way that makes his being named by Mr Oswald SAFE, i.e. in a way that reinforces the fake new timeframe that has been given to Mr Oswald's claims:
--------visited the second-floor lunchroom for a Coke DURING WHICH VISIT a cop came in with Mr Truly
--------then went downstairs to eat lunch
--------Then went outside and stood around with Mr Shelley, who indicated work would not be resumed for the rest of the day

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home.



This is the switcheroo, folks:
Then went outside to watch P. Parade (Hosty solo report)-------------------->Then went outside several minutes after the P. Parade (Bookhout solo report)
Thumb1:

I had noticed that someone's name had been typed over in the Bookhout report for 11-22-63 ....The name Bill Shelly had been typed over the original entry....  Was there a simple  mistake or was the name changed for some other reason.???

The really odd thing I noticed when I was looking for Hosty / Bookhout report is the closing sentence of that report.....( page 613 WR)  That final sentence reads...Quote...." Oswald frantically denied shooting Dallas police officer Tippit" or shooting President John F. Kennedy."...unquote

The weird thing is NO WHERE in the reports of the initial questioning of LHO is there any mention of Fritz asking Lee anything about the shooting of Tippit.....  So why would Lee "frantically deny shooting Dallas police officer Tippit"     Fritz hadn't questioned him about  the shooting of Tippit. I don't believe this denial actually happened...I believe that Bookhout made that bit up....

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2021, 02:05:46 AM
I had noticed that someone's name had been typed over in the Bookhout report for 11-22-63 ....The name Bill Shelly had been typed over the original entry....  Was there a simple  mistake or was the name changed for some other reason.???

Looks like "SHELLY" is corrected for "SHELLEY"

Quote
The really odd thing I noticed when I was looking for Hosty / Bookhout report is the closing sentence of that report.....( page 613 WR)  That final sentence reads...Quote...." Oswald frantically denied shooting Dallas police officer Tippit" or shooting President John F. Kennedy."...unquote

The weird thing is NO WHERE in the reports of the initial questioning of LHO is there any mention of Fritz asking Lee anything about the shooting of Tippit.....  So why would Lee "frantically deny shooting Dallas police officer Tippit"     Fritz hadn't questioned him the shooting of Tippit. I don't believe this denial actually happened...I believe that Bookhout made that bit up....

Mr Oswald was given to understand that he stood accused of two things:
1. INVOLVEMENT in the shooting of Pres. Kennedy (not the actual pulling of the trigger)
2. The SHOOTING of Officer Tippit

Mr Oswald made this clear in the midnight press conference-------------------which was suddenly shut down as soon as he was told he had been charged with the SHOOTING of Pres. Kennedy

He was played, but good------------------and that's why he never shouted his ironclad alibi to the pressmen
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2021, 02:38:23 AM
Mr Oswald in that first interrogation session tells Captain Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. Parade". One can presume that he is asked exactly where he stood, and if anyone can vouch for him. One can further presume that he mentions Mr Shelley, Mr Lovelady and Mr Frazier.

Mr Shelley... Mr Lovelady... Mr Frazier: These three men become a real danger to the 'investigation', because they are eyewitnesses to Mr Oswald's alibi.

Now--------------Mr Shelley and Mr Lovelady each give an affidavit statement on their sightings of Mr Oswald that day. NEITHER states outright in these affidavits that they did not see Mr Oswald at the time of the P. Parade. Instead, that question is left as a weird gap, a weird silence. Pretty soon, however the bullet will be fully bitten and they will be pressurized into stating a positive lie: no, I didn't see Oswald at that time. The danger posed by Mr Shelley and Mr Lovelady has been neutralized.

However! Mr Frazier has gone AWOL. It is a matter of extreme urgency that he be found, brought in and told to shut up about who was there on the steps with him. A threatened charge of conspiracy will do the trick, all on the flimsy pretext that he drove Mr Oswald to work that morning just as he had driven him to and from work on quite a few occasions before that.

If finding confederates to Mr Oswald's alleged deed had been a serious consideration, then the Paines (owners of the home from which the alleged rifle came) and Mrs Marina Oswald (Russian wife of the accused) would have been arrested and threatened with a conspiracy charge).

And Mr Warren Caster, who brought two rifles into the Depository two days before the shooting, would have been arrested and treated as a suspect.

No--------------Mr Frazier posed a danger to the Oswald-Did-It narrative and so needed to be neutralized .

Another figure of possibly great danger to the 'investigation' is Mr Joe Molina, whom Mr Oswald may also have mentioned (if he knew the man's name) as someone who was out there on the steps. And of course we know that Mr Molina will be subjected to intense pressure on a similar level to that exerted on Mr Frazier.

Mr Oswald had an alibi, stated his alibi, and the cover-up machine went into absolute overdrive.

Why, they even went to the lengths of placing an impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film!

(https://i.imgur.com/hqhDai5.jpg)

And the version of the Altgens photograph shown to the American public by Mr Walter Cronkite the evening of 11/22/63 is NOT the version of the photograph researchers have scrutinized minutely over the decades!

(https://i.imgur.com/VcCc57L.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2021, 02:54:10 AM
I believe Mr Frazier knows full well where Mr Oswald was at the time of the shooting----------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/h0jt5K1.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/1986ZOh.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 24, 2021, 10:18:55 AM
Question!

Why is Mr Bill Shelley's name handwritten at the top of an interrogation report that doesn't once mention his name?

(https://i.imgur.com/aA3TYPY.jpg)
Notice the "KP" at the top. That stands for "Key Persons." This copy of the report was from Shelley's KP folder. "Key Person" is the term the WC used for people they wanted to call to testify, or considered particularly significant.  A sort of dossier was created for each of these key people, and it was filled with reports, affidavits, depositions, memos, and similar documents that relate somehow to that person, at least as far as the WC staff was concerned. Some of these documents only relate tangentially or indirectly to the KP they are attached to. In Shelley's case, there is also a memo from Eisenberg to Rankin laying out the former's suspicion of Jack Daugherty as a possible suspect. IIRC it specifically mentions Roy Truly's name, but never mentions Shelley.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 24, 2021, 05:13:15 PM
Looks like "SHELLY" is corrected for "SHELLEY"

Mr Oswald was given to understand that he stood accused of two things:
1. INVOLVEMENT in the shooting of Pres. Kennedy (not the actual pulling of the trigger)
2. The SHOOTING of Officer Tippit

Mr Oswald made this clear in the midnight press conference-------------------which was suddenly shut down as soon as he was told he had been charged with the SHOOTING of Pres. Kennedy

He was played, but good------------------and that's why he never shouted his ironclad alibi to the pressmen

Mr Oswald was given to understand that he stood accused of two things:
1. INVOLVEMENT in the shooting of Pres. Kennedy (not the actual pulling of the trigger)
2. The SHOOTING of Officer Tippit


Given to understand??     How??   There is no reference to the Tippit murder in any of the notes taken by Fritz, Hosty, or Bookhout....

Fritz immediately focused on Lee's actions at the TSBD, and he asked Lee where he was when the parade passed by the TSBD.... But there's not even a hint that he asked Lee about his whereabouts from 1:00 to 1:15 pm.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 24, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
Fritz immediately focused on Lee's actions at the TSBD

As I recall Leavelle was kind of assigned (or assigned himself) to the Tippit shooting.

I don't think the FBI had any interest in the Tippit shooting as such, it only complicated things for them.

You may be correct Otto..... But my point is:   There is no record that Fritz asked lee anything that could pertain to Lee's whereabouts at the time that Tippit was murdered....

WHY??    If Lee was allegedly arrested for the murder of JD Tippit ...Then WHY ...I ask WHY....didn't Fritz ask Lee a single question about   that event?? WHY didn't Fritz ask Lee Oswald: Where were you between 1:00 and 1:15 pm today Lee? 

I believe the reason that Fritz never asked that question is because he knew very well that Lee was traveling on a bus to the Texas theater at that time......  And obviously that would have given Lee an air tight alibi for the charge that he had been at 10th and Patton and had shot officer Tippit.   

Fritz did not want that information on the record and there were two FBI agents listening and taking notes of the Q&A.....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Donald Roberdeau on September 24, 2021, 08:48:56 PM
.... Good Day Dan.... Perhaps someone was mis-identifying that the "Thornton" road sign on an 11-22-63 map was the "Stemmons" road sign. The closest edge of the "Thornton" sign, to the westernmost side of the TSBD front door entrance steps, was a bit over 126 feet, = 42 yards. (Elm Street was nearly exactly 40' wide)

Best Regards in Research, Don

Hi Don,

This was from quite a while ago.
As I remember I had a couple of schematic drawings of Dealey Plaza that agreed with each other in the scale they were using but disagreed with your map.
If I remember correctly it turned out these schematic drawings were wrong and your map was right.

Is there a latest update for your map and, out of interest, do you agree with the identification of the four ladies standing together wearing head scarves as Calvery, Hicks, Reed and Westbrook?

.... Good  Day  Dan....  Thumb1: There  is  an update coming that I have been working on for 4 years in my spare, personal times for the free  Dealey Plaza Detailed Map  that includes additional evidence, key information's, witnesses photo/film photogrammetrically precise determined locations, etc.

When all of these new map components references have been solidly confirmed + quadruple-checked for 111% accuracy, I will certainly provide it publicly for us all.  Thumb1:

     Best  Regards  in  Research,

          Don

 
Donald  Roberdeau
United  States  Navy
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker
Sooner,  or  later,  The  Truth  emerges  clearly
①___________②___③

For your key considerations + independent determinations....

Homepages Website:  "Men of Courage:  President Kennedy-elimination" Evidence, Witnesses,
Photographers, Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, Suspects, + Key Considerations....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

The Dealey Plaza Detailed MapDocumented 11-22-63 Victims Precise Locations +
Reactions, Evidence, Witnesses Locations, Photographers, Suspected Bullet Trajectories,
Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, + Important Information + Key Considerations, in One
Convenient Resource....
https://i.imgur.com/8vSS1dp.gif
( 2017 updated map, + new information.... Updated  map  coming)

Discovery:  Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS's
Zapruder Film Documented
  2nd  Head Snap: West, Ultrafast,  and Directly
Towards the  Grassy Knoll ....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

Visual Report:  The  First  Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was  Still  Hidden
Under  the  "Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree"....

http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif (http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif)

Visual Report:  Reality  versus C.A.D. :  the Real World,  versus,  Garbage-in-garbage-out....
http://i.imgur.com/r8Ga26x.gif

T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore

U.S. Department for Homeland Security Terrorists-Alert Status For the United States: (https://i.imgur.com/ssa8IQp.gif)
http://dhs.gov (https://i.imgur.com/ssa8IQp.gif[/url)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 24, 2021, 10:57:13 PM
.... Good  Day  Dan....  Thumb1: There  is  an update coming that I have been working on for 4 years in my spare, personal times for the free  Dealey Plaza Detailed Map  that includes additional evidence, key information's, witnesses photo/film photogrammetrically precise determined locations, etc.

When all of these new map components references have been solidly confirmed + quadruple-checked for 111% accuracy, I will certainly provide it publicly for us all.  Thumb1:

     Best  Regards  in  Research,

          Don

 
Donald  Roberdeau
United  States  Navy
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker
Sooner,  or  later,  The  Truth  emerges  clearly
①___________②___③

For your key considerations + independent determinations....

Homepages Website:  "Men of Courage:  President Kennedy-elimination" Evidence, Witnesses,
Photographers, Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, Suspects, + Key Considerations....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

The Dealey Plaza Detailed MapDocumented 11-22-63 Victims Precise Locations +
Reactions, Evidence, Witnesses Locations, Photographers, Suspected Bullet Trajectories,
Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, + Important Information + Key Considerations, in One
Convenient Resource....
http://i.imgur.com/rGmmWxD.gif
( 2017 updated map, + new information.... Updated  map  coming)

Discovery:  Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS's
Zapruder Film Documented
  2nd  Head Snap: West, Ultrafast,  and Directly
Towards the  Grassy Knoll ....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

Visual Report:  The  First  Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was  Still  Hidden
Under  the  "Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree"....

http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif (http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif)

Visual Report:  Reality  versus C.A.D. :  the Real World,  versus,  Garbage-in-garbage-out....
http://i.imgur.com/r8Ga26x.gif

T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore

U.S. Department for Homeland Security Terrorists-Alert Status For the United States: (https://i.imgur.com/ssa8IQp.gif)
http://dhs.gov
 (https://i.imgur.com/ssa8IQp.gif[/url)

The  First  Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was  Still  Hidden
Under  the  "Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree"....


Hi Don, it is this fact that made me a confirmed CT......   Many years ago I performed some of the same research that you've performed. And based on the dimensions and measurements ....I built a scale model of the TSBD and the area in front and to the west of the TSBD....and I found that the tree blocked the field of fire from the sixth floor window.    I actually used a soda straw and stuck it out of the SE corner window and looked through the straw toward the place where JFK was struck ....and I found that the tree blocked my view.....    It was this simple experiment that made me the confirmed CT that I am.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2021, 11:10:28 AM
Notice the "KP" at the top. That stands for "Key Persons." This copy of the report was from Shelley's KP folder. "Key Person" is the term the WC used for people they wanted to call to testify, or considered particularly significant.  A sort of dossier was created for each of these key people, and it was filled with reports, affidavits, depositions, memos, and similar documents that relate somehow to that person, at least as far as the WC staff was concerned. Some of these documents only relate tangentially or indirectly to the KP they are attached to. In Shelley's case, there is also a memo from Eisenberg to Rankin laying out the former's suspicion of Jack Daugherty as a possible suspect. IIRC it specifically mentions Roy Truly's name, but never mentions Shelley.

Thank you, Mr Todd---------------------I stand corrected on this point!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2021, 11:26:57 AM
Mr Oswald was given to understand that he stood accused of two things:
1. INVOLVEMENT in the shooting of Pres. Kennedy (not the actual pulling of the trigger)
2. The SHOOTING of Officer Tippit


Given to understand??     How??   There is no reference to the Tippit murder in any of the notes taken by Fritz, Hosty, or Bookhout....

Fritz immediately focused on Lee's actions at the TSBD, and he asked Lee where he was when the parade passed by the TSBD.... But there's not even a hint that he asked Lee about his whereabouts from 1:00 to 1:15 pm.....

The fact that the interrogation reports don't go there does NOT mean they didn't go there in the interrogation itself. Mr Oswald's answers to questions put to him on this issue must have been as dangerous to the overall case against him as his statement that he went outside to watch the P. Parade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2021, 11:39:12 AM
The top priority was to position Lee inside the TSBD, away from the entrance.

This was certainly the top priority for the 'investigation', Mr Beck, but there is no good reason to think it even entered the mind of those behind the shooting itself!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 25, 2021, 04:03:20 PM
The fact that the interrogation reports don't go there does NOT mean they didn't go there in the interrogation itself. Mr Oswald's answers to questions put to him on this issue must have been as dangerous to the overall case against him as his statement that he went outside to watch the P. Parade

The fact that the interrogation reports don't go there does NOT mean they didn't go there in the interrogation itself.

I can't accept your answer,  I doubt that of  the six men who were in the interrogation sessions not one of them would have recorded the question if Fritz had asked: Where were you between 1:03 and 1:15 pm, Mr Oswald?   

That question was never asked.....  And I now believe that I know WHY it wasn't asked..... I strongly believe that during the early interrogation sessions Fritz believed that Tippit had been shot at the Texas theater.....  If Fritz believed that Tippit had been shot by Lee Oswald at the theater as the early reports stated....Then there was no need to establish the suspects whereabouts for that period. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 08, 2021, 01:56:09 AM
According to the later recollections of Lieutenant Carl Day, Mr Roy Truly told him all about 'the' lunchroom encounter the very afternoon of the assassination.

Lots and lots of photographs in the Depository were taken by Lt. Day. & Det. Studebaker that day. And several photographs of the lunchroom were taken, including this one---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/9ExaAxY.jpg)

Funnily enough, however, given that this was supposedly already on 11/22 the known site of the crucial first post-assassination sighting of the suspect, all the photographs of the lunchroom were taken not on 11/22 but on 11/25:

(https://i.imgur.com/llltAeF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rXcUE7M.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: David Von Pein on October 08, 2021, 02:20:58 PM
Not that I have the slightest belief in the ridiculous "Fritz keeping Oswald silent scenario" but wasn't the start of Oswald's first interrogation about 2:25 which wasn't long after Oswald arrived at the Police station?, do you have any evidence that Oswald agreeing with being in the building happened before 2:25?

Oswald's "Naturally, if I work in that building" declaration to the press occurred at 7:55 PM Dallas time, according to these notes written by Seth Kantor:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0193b.htm

Oswald had already been interrogated extensively by 7:55.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 08, 2021, 04:37:24 PM
Oswald's "Naturally, if I work in that building" declaration to the press occurred at 7:55 PM Dallas time, according to these notes written by Seth Kantor:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0193b.htm

Oswald had already been interrogated extensively by 7:55.

Exactly. He emerged from the first wave of intensive interrogation with no idea he was being accused of having actually fired shots in Dealey Plaza. Hence his blase/snippy response to the reporter, which communicates straightforward thoughts........

---------No, of course I didn't shoot the President, my only connection to the case is that I work in that building
---------I came to work this morning and didn't leave the place until after the assassination. Big deal


A guilty assassin who knew he stood charged with having fired on Pres. Kennedy from the sixth floor would have answered the reporter's questions very differently. And had Mr Oswald known what dispatches the press had been given, he would have told the reporter what, as we have known since 2019, he had already told Captain Fritz in the first interrogation session:

I went outside to watch the Presidential Parade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on October 12, 2021, 01:17:45 PM
.... Good  Day  Dan....  Thumb1: There  is  an update coming that I have been working on for 4 years in my spare, personal times for the free  Dealey Plaza Detailed Map  that includes additional evidence, key information's, witnesses photo/film photogrammetrically precise determined locations, etc.

When all of these new map components references have been solidly confirmed + quadruple-checked for 111% accuracy, I will certainly provide it publicly for us all.  Thumb1:

     Best  Regards  in  Research,

          Don

 
Donald  Roberdeau
United  States  Navy
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker
Sooner,  or  later,  The  Truth  emerges  clearly
①___________②___③

For your key considerations + independent determinations....

Homepages Website:  "Men of Courage:  President Kennedy-elimination" Evidence, Witnesses,
Photographers, Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, Suspects, + Key Considerations....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

The Dealey Plaza Detailed MapDocumented 11-22-63 Victims Precise Locations +
Reactions, Evidence, Witnesses Locations, Photographers, Suspected Bullet Trajectories,
Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, + Important Information + Key Considerations, in One
Convenient Resource....
https://i.imgur.com/8vSS1dp.gif
( 2017 updated map, + new information.... Updated  map  coming)

Discovery:  Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS's
Zapruder Film Documented
  2nd  Head Snap: West, Ultrafast,  and Directly
Towards the  Grassy Knoll ....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

Visual Report:  The  First  Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was  Still  Hidden
Under  the  "Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree"....

http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif (http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif)

Visual Report:  Reality  versus C.A.D. :  the Real World,  versus,  Garbage-in-garbage-out....
http://i.imgur.com/r8Ga26x.gif

T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore

U.S. Department for Homeland Security Terrorists-Alert Status For the United States: (https://i.imgur.com/ssa8IQp.gif)
http://dhs.gov
 (https://i.imgur.com/ssa8IQp.gif[/url)

Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on November 23, 2021, 01:42:40 AM
Well! Another anniversary of this awful event falls, and the state of play is..................

1. We continue to await from Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps an even halfway viable explanation for the fact that Agent Hosty's 11/22/63 draft interrogation report states with delightful clarity that Mr Oswald in his first interrogation told Captain Fritz that he went outside to watch the P. Parade:

(https://i.imgur.com/2TWfZ6h.jpg)

2. We continue to await from Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps an even halfway viable alternative candidate to Mr Oswald for the figure known as Prayer Man:

(https://i.imgur.com/IaFVVAe.jpg)

3. We continue to await from Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps an even halfway viable explanation for this physically impossible shadow down Mr Billy Lovelady in the Wiegman film:

(https://i.imgur.com/Hbhtau5.jpg)

4. We continue to be delighted by the discovery of Mr Bill Shelley (yellow arrow) in the Wiegman film standing just behind Mr Lovelady (red arrow) and beside Prayer Man (blue arrow):

(https://i.imgur.com/JNbkzDF.jpg)

5. We continue to note with interest a certain soda-bottleish detail in the version of the Altgens doorway photo shown to the American public the evening of the assassination by Mr Walter Cronkite:

(https://i.imgur.com/ARUAcDb.gif)

6. We continue to await from the Warren Gullibles a halfway viable explanation for the documented proof that two curtain rods were submitted for testing for Mr Oswald's prints under circumstances that render more than doubtful the official claim that no curtain rods were found in the Depository building after the assassination:

(https://i.imgur.com/JrA3YBz.jpg)

7. We continue to note with interest that Mr Oswald's claimed alibi for the shooting is, after 58 years, looking a heck of a lot stronger than the ridiculous Warren Fairytale claim that he was on the sixth floor firing shots using a rifle he had brought to work that morning.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2021, 11:55:53 PM
Here are Mr Truly and Officer Baker talking to i.a. Mr Ochus Campbell after their return downstairs---------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bvs3dc3v/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Now! The electrical panels in the background tell us that we are near the rear of the first floor. Officer Baker and then Mr Truly direct attention to the northwest corner, which is where the rear stairway is. It seems a fair surmise that he and Officer Baker are describing their movements after entering the building.

If so, then this is of potentially great significance. Contrary to the impression Officer Baker gives in his WC testimony, he does not leave the building immediately upon descending. Here he is with Mr Truly, talking over what has happened.

Remember--------------Officer Baker will later this day give an affidavit in which he describes an encounter with a man caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor. Presumably the gentlemen here present in this footage are being told that Officer Baker and Mr Truly did not encounter anything untoward either on their way upstairs or on the roof. Only an employee a few floors up.

One thing is certain: they are NOT being told of any lunchroom encounter on the second floor. Because NOTHING OF THE SORT is going to be reflected in Officer Baker's affidavit account.

If the lunchroom incident really happened, then it is hard to see how Officer Baker can leave this conversation with Mr Truly and these gentlemen under an erroneous impression as to where the incident actually happened. He will either hear Mr Truly mention the lunchroom on the second floor, or Mr Truly will correct HIM when he speaks of an encounter several floors up. This neutralizes the usual Lunchroom Gullible argument explaining away the Baker affidavit ("Baker was new to the building etc.") because such fails to factor in the fact that he and Mr Truly had time together to review their movements for the benefit of others.

No. What probably happens is this: Mr Truly does not challenge the FACT of an encounter with an 'employee' by the rear stairway several floors up. But he knows the 'employee' was no real employee. He, Mr Truly, is in deep doodoo, because he vouched for this fake 'employee'. He desperately needs a real employee coming down the stairway shortly after the shooting.

Is he going to ask Mr Jack Dougherty to pretend to police he unaccountably returned to work upstairs just around the time of the shooting and came downstairs after hearing a shot? Was Mr Dougherty in fact downstairs the whole time? Was he one of the two WHITE men seen by Officer Baker near the rear of the first floor just after the assassination?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2021, 06:06:28 PM
Mr Piper puts Mr Truly and A.N.Other's entry into the shipping floor at several MINUTES after the shots!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2021, 06:12:25 PM
From Mr Jack Dougherty's 11/22/63 FBI statement-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/qOvJGHN.jpg)

Mr Dougherty did indeed see Mr Oswald again in the building after 11---------------as he told Mr Gill Toff several years later, he saw Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the P. Parade. And when, according to Mr Oswald himself, did he visit that lunchroom? Before the P. Parade.

Hence the crossing out of "again" and the new weasel wording: "do not recall seeing him at work after 11:00 AM". Cos Mr Oswald wasn't at work during the lunch period!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 04, 2021, 02:35:05 AM
Somebody on the west side of that entranceway is waving something at the passing parade, and that somebody is not Mr Carl Edward Jones-------------

(Yellow box---------disregard red arrow):

(https://i.imgur.com/dzFMlCB.gif)

Who is the person under the yellow arrow?

(https://i.imgur.com/IogdnSm.jpg)

Seconds before this:

(https://i.imgur.com/9Rwcjau.gif)

Seconds after this:

(https://i.imgur.com/ARUAcDb.gif)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 20, 2021, 12:45:10 AM
Who is this person and what are they waving??

(Disregard red arrow, which was placed there to illustrate something unrelated!):

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 20, 2021, 12:49:47 AM
The light color of the waved object seems to rule out the dark hat or handbag of Ms Madie Reese, the person just east of Mr Carl Jones at the time of the shots------------

(https://i.imgur.com/CWt0mM9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/v05LGEh.jpg)

(Credit for ID of Ms Reese in the above photographs: the indefatigably brilliant Ms Linda Zambanini!)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on December 21, 2021, 03:07:39 AM
Somebody on the west side of that entranceway is waving something at the passing parade, and that somebody is not Mr Carl Edward Jones-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/b9PJs2i.gif)

(Yellow box---------disregard red arrow):

(https://i.imgur.com/dzFMlCB.gif)

Who is the person under the yellow arrow?

(https://i.imgur.com/IogdnSm.jpg)

Seconds before this:

(https://i.imgur.com/9Rwcjau.gif)

Seconds after this:

(https://i.imgur.com/ARUAcDb.gif)
I was researching this some time ago and it was a lady handkerchief. Will try to find photos.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 27, 2021, 11:45:31 PM
Well I’m confused again🤔
If that’s Lovelady raising his hand to shade his eyes from sun while next to the West wall of the TSBD entrance, then should not he have raised hand shading eyes when he moves to the center rail and hence is “right next to Sarah Stanton who IS raised BOTH hands ?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 31, 2021, 03:04:29 AM
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


Friends, Mr Holmes has things a little garbled, but Mr Oswald did use the word 'vestibule'. I believe he may well have used it to mean the front porch. He spoke about a police officer running up to him on the steps (i.e. front steps, nothing to do with back stairs) and asking if he worked there (Officer Baker, as we know, wanted someone familiar with the building to show him to the nearest stairs). Mr Oswald had indeed shortly before this come through two sets of doors and "had come out to this front part".

This would make sense of the complete lack of fit in the following between a stationary Mr Oswald ("standing") and a mobile Mr Oswald ("stopped" while "coming down the stairs" by the police officer):

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.


What Mr Oswald actually said was that, at the time the officer came up to him, he (Mr Oswald) was standing there drinking a Coca Cola that he had not long before that purchased from the Coca Cola machine in the second floor lunchroom, before coming back down to the first floor to eat his lunch. As soon as he heard the excitement/commotion out front, he knew the motorcade was coming into Dealey Plaza-----------so he hurried down (from the domino room/shipping floor to the front entrance) and went outside to the front steps to watch the P. Parade.

Remember remember remember! DPD later that day told press that Mr Oswald was "stopped" at the front door immediately after the shots rang out. Only when they realized the alibi-conferring character of this fact did they change their tune!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 31, 2021, 03:33:43 AM
The odd coda to Mr Ronald B. Fischer's 11/22/63 affidavit statement:

I do remember one particular thing that happened just at the time I saw a man up there. There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and looked to me like she might be an employee of that building. She was walking in while everybody else had been coming out.

The time frame here is some 30 seconds before the assassination.

Who might this "rather tall girl" have been? Ms Carolyn Arnold, perhaps, whom a March '64 statement by Mr Bill Shelley places in the doorway at the time of the shooting?

(https://i.imgur.com/JEdYnIV.jpg)

Did she leave the group she was with out by the street and return to the doorway just in time for JFK's passing the building? If so, did she as she reached the doorway notice someone in that doorway (or perhaps behind the glass door) who (later) wasn't meant to be there----------someone she had just minutes before this noticed sitting in the second-floor lunchroom? And was she told by the 'investigating' authorities to shut up about it?

Certainly I am struck by the curious vehemence with which, in her 1978 conversations with Mr Anthony Summers and Mr Earl Golz, she denied having had any cause to even look in the direction of the the doorway after going out near the street................

(https://i.imgur.com/Xh6gPzc.jpg)

Think we the lady doth here protest too much? Bear in mind: the FBI report which was being read out to her did not have her looking back at the doorway at the time she would have been "trying to watch the parade", but several minutes before this. She seems needlessly spooked by what she is hearing......

I can't help wondering if she might not be the person waving what Mr Jackson has suggested is a lady's handkerchief:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)

IF so, then might she have something to do with the physically impossible shadow that was so crudely added down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film?

(https://i.imgur.com/VDCsIi0.jpg)

Elimination of her visible presence on the steps----------------discrediting her in advance in case of the unhappy eventuality that she, a game-destroying witness, goes public at some stage with her story?

 Just a thought! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 31, 2021, 04:50:25 AM
Now, compare the raised hand waving something in Towner with what is so obviously a hand raised in front of Mr Lovelady here-------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Oe91XqU.jpg)

Might they not be one and same hand, waving one and the same object (a handkerchief?)? Same location, just seconds apart. And look at the area over the hand in Altgens: there is something rather light-colored interposed between the camera and the darker-colored edge of Mr Lovelady's shirt.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on December 31, 2021, 07:19:45 AM
If Carolyn Arnold was such a critical witness that could place Oswald in that corner as PM such that somebody thought it necessary to blot her out with black something spray, then it’s doubtful imo that those conspirators would have allowed Mrs Arnold to live much longer after the fact. She would have had one of those untimely deaths like so many other witness did.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on December 31, 2021, 11:55:28 PM
If Carolyn Arnold was such a critical witness that could place Oswald in that corner as PM such that somebody thought it necessary to blot her out with black something spray, then it’s doubtful imo that those conspirators would have allowed Mrs Arnold to live much longer after the fact. She would have had one of those untimely deaths like so many other witness did.

Well, Messrs Frazier, Shelley and Lovelady saw Mr Oswald and kept their mouths shut. Going to the extreme of killing a Depository employee would be an absolutely final recourse.

If Ms Arnold had gone public at any point, her claimed specific location in the doorway would be instantly refuted by 'the visual record'. A bit like the double use of the digits '275/276' with the curtain rods--------------you build in insurance by advance-discrediting a witness who might talk.

The real problem posed by Mr Lovelady in Altgens was not Mr Lovelady's resemblance to Mr Oswald but the fact that he happened to show up behind the hand of someone whose presence there posed a big problem to the official Fairy Tale. They desperately needed to convince folks that that person's arm belonged to Mr Lovelady!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 01, 2022, 07:08:31 PM
The odd coda to Mr Ronald B. Fischer's 11/22/63 affidavit statement:

I do remember one particular thing that happened just at the time I saw a man up there. There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and looked to me like she might be an employee of that building. She was walking in while everybody else had been coming out.

The time frame here is some 30 seconds before the assassination.

Who might this "rather tall girl" have been? Ms Carolyn Arnold, perhaps, whom a March '64 statement by Mr Bill Shelley places in the doorway at the time of the shooting?

(https://i.imgur.com/JEdYnIV.jpg)

Did she leave the group she was with out by the street and return to the doorway just in time for JFK's passing the building? If so, did she as she reached the doorway notice someone in that doorway (or perhaps behind the glass door) who (later) wasn't meant to be there----------someone she had just minutes before this noticed sitting in the second-floor lunchroom? And was she told by the 'investigating' authorities to shut up about it?

Certainly I am struck by the curious vehemence with which, in her 1978 conversations with Mr Anthony Summers and Mr Earl Golz, she denied having had any cause to even look in the direction of the the doorway after going out near the street................

(https://i.imgur.com/Xh6gPzc.jpg)

Think we the lady doth here protest too much? Bear in mind: the FBI report which was being read out to her did not have her looking back at the doorway at the time she would have been "trying to watch the parade", but several minutes before this. She seems needlessly spooked by what she is hearing......

I can't help wondering if she might not be the person waving what Mr Jackson has suggested is a lady's handkerchief:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)

IF so, then might she have something to do with the physically impossible shadow that was so crudely added down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film?

(https://i.imgur.com/VDCsIi0.jpg)

Elimination of her visible presence on the steps----------------discrediting her in advance in case of the unhappy eventuality that she, a game-destroying witness, goes public at some stage with her story?

 Just a thought! Thumb1:
I have lost the track on what you are looking to show here but I am pretty sure that the object you are referring is a lady handkerchief. You have to understand that it was not on the steps but closer to the street. I have circled three ladies and one of them was waving with the handkerchief while the limo was passing by in Towner film. I had a better photo but could not find it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pxv8r6C7/hand.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 01, 2022, 09:30:38 PM
I have lost the track on what you are looking to show here but I am pretty sure that the object you are referring is a lady handkerchief. You have to understand that it was not on the steps but closer to the street. I have circled three ladies and one of them was waving with the handkerchief while the limo was passing by in Towner film. I had a better photo but could not find it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pxv8r6C7/hand.jpg)

Thank you, Mr Jackson, but I'm honestly not seeing what you're seeing here?

(https://i.imgur.com/QVTlmmv.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 02, 2022, 12:35:05 AM
Thank you, Mr Jackson, but I'm honestly not seeing what you're seeing here?

(https://i.imgur.com/QVTlmmv.jpg)
You do not see it because it is not the same moment.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 02, 2022, 12:51:37 AM
You do not see it because it is not the same moment.

I am aware of that (i.e. that Wiegman is not showing the same moment as the Towner frames) but I fail to see a) where you are getting a handkerchief from b) what makes you think the hand-waving-an-object* belongs to one of the women you mention rather than to someone back in the entranceway

*Just down and to the left of the red arrow here:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 02, 2022, 03:02:41 AM
I am aware of that (i.e. that Wiegman is not showing the same moment as the Towner frames) but I fail to see a) where you are getting a handkerchief from b) what makes you think the hand-waving-an-object* belongs to one of the women you mention rather than to someone back in the entranceway

*Just down and to the left of the red arrow here:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)
Because I am quite sure I had another photo/frame of that ladies in front and one of them with hankerchief.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 02, 2022, 03:27:09 AM
Because I am quite sure I had another photo/frame of that ladies in front and one of them with hankerchief.

Well I'd sure like to see it, as the Bell film frames showing the same scene/time as the Towner film frames show those ladies waving nothing, handkerchief or otherwise
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 02, 2022, 01:08:55 PM
Well I'd sure like to see it, as the Bell film frames showing the same scene/time as the Towner film frames show those ladies waving nothing, handkerchief or otherwise
Here, I have tried to extract from your GIF. Right hand is raised holding the handkerchief and in your GIF two waves are seen towards the limo. Try yourself, take a handkerchief and wave towards somebody in front of you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwMXmjjK/hand2.jpg)

I believe it belonged to one of the ladies in front.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 02, 2022, 10:58:50 PM
Here, I have tried to extract from your GIF. Right hand is raised holding the handkerchief and in your GIF two waves are seen towards the limo. Try yourself, take a handkerchief and wave towards somebody in front of you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwMXmjjK/hand2.jpg)

I believe it belonged to one of the ladies in front.

Once again, Mr Jackson, the Bell frames show no such waving from any of these ladies. That simple objective fact is--------with respect---------in no wise trumped by your subjective and rather arbitrary drawing of a hand outline on the Towner frame above.

The waving hand/object are much further back------------in the entranceway:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 02, 2022, 11:12:26 PM
That upraised arm with what might be a bottle in the hand, is in FRONT of the black guys face so don’t see how that could be Oswalds hand since he would have stepped down momentarily from the PM corner position to be just BEHIND the black dude.

Maybe part of that arm is an airbrushed whiteish blob added to make it apoear to be the black dude raising his hand to shade his eyes.

But that’s not the way the black guys face is turned in the OTHER version of Altgens 6 photo which now the black guy is facing forward and no arm upraised and that arm has been turned into Loveladys left arm completely covered with texture pattern of Lovelady shirt, ironically with no hand at the end of the shirt sleeve with a part of the allege overlapping and cutting off part of the black dudes face.

Now would for some WC defender to go out there to those front steps of the TSBD in Dallas and take a photograph and replicate these 2 anomalous versions of the Altgens 6 photo or else it’s going to imo PROOF positive of altered photos.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 03, 2022, 01:49:14 AM
Once again, Mr Jackson, the Bell frames show no such waving from any of these ladies. That simple objective fact is--------with respect---------in no wise trumped by your subjective and rather arbitrary drawing of a hand outline on the Towner frame above.

The waving hand/object are much further back------------in the entranceway:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)
Well, I respect your oppinion of course but still think you are wrong. The only object between Tina Towner and Roy Edward Lewis on the steps is that hand with the handkerchief.
Bell is on a different angle and moment.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 03, 2022, 04:40:08 AM
Well, I respect your oppinion of course but still think you are wrong. The only object between Tina Towner and Roy Edward Lewis on the steps is that hand with the handkerchief.

Reassertion of claims (that the hand/object are out near the street, that the object is a handkerchief) is not demonstration of same!

Quote
Bell is on a different angle and moment.

A different angle, yes of course-------but Bell shows those three women quite clearly from the front (no waving, no nothing)
A different moment--------no

Again with respect, Mr Jackson, you are putting an imaginary object into the hand of one of these women and assigning to that woman an imaginary action
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 03, 2022, 05:11:07 AM
Friends, I find myself wondering again about something I suggested here some time back..................

Mr Kenneth Duvall claimed he was sitting on the third step as JFK passed.

Here is Mr Duvall in Dec '63:

(https://i.imgur.com/8eOiaaz.jpg)

And here (I am confident) is Mr Duvall in the railroad yards several minutes after the shooting:

(https://i.imgur.com/Vo8PZfS.gif)

The green circle highlights a newspaper or order book or somesuch in his shirt breast pocket.

Could this (just down and to the left of the red arrow here) be Mr Duvall, still sitting on the step, waving his paper at the passing limousine?:

(https://i.imgur.com/nX0UBAb.gif)

And could this be Mr Duvall's arm (orange) with the paper (light-brown) still waving?

(https://i.imgur.com/V4Vuiec.gif)

Note: Mr Duvall was in shortsleeves------------

(https://i.imgur.com/g1Q4a5W.jpg)

Now! Any images taken of the entranceway around this time by a camera that is east of Mr Altgens' position will be apt to show Mr Duvall's face. But---------here's the thing---------Mr Duvall bears a striking resemblance to Mr Lee Harvey Oswald. In such a case, then such film would show the following: next to but lower than the face of Mr Lovelady (=an LHO-resembling man) the face of a man who looks for all the world like young Mr Oswald. The same Mr Oswald who was claiming in custody that he "went outside to watch P. Parade":

(https://i.imgur.com/G3eTvLE.jpg)

One such film that might have shown just such is of course the Wiegman film. And it is in that film that we just so happen to find a physically impossible shadow down the right side of Mr Lovelady, whose entire front body was, as we know, at that moment bathed in sunlight:

(https://i.imgur.com/Fc7VYND.jpg)

Is Mr Duvall's face somewhere in that physically impossible black area that darkens Mr Lovelady's right side? Did the 'investigating' authorities cover up what they thought was the face of Mr Oswald, when in fact it was the face of Mr Duvall? And did their error-sponsored fixation on Mr Duvall's face blind them to the possibility that Mr Oswald was in fact a certain shaded-into-obscurity figure standing further over by the west wall of the entrance?

Remember! Mr Duvall not being a Depository employee, he would have been someone of whose existence the 'investigating' authorities' were completely unaware.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 04, 2022, 07:09:41 PM
Reassertion of claims (that the hand/object are out near the street, that the object is a handkerchief) is not demonstration of same!

A different angle, yes of course-------but Bell shows those three women quite clearly from the front (no waving, no nothing)
A different moment--------no

Again with respect, Mr Jackson, you are putting an imaginary object into the hand of one of these women and assigning to that woman an imaginary action
Bell film shows an object above ladies heads and it is right there.
Focus on the lady on the left side, first you see her face, than she raises her hand and after you see her face again. She literally made two or three handkerchief waves, not more than three in less than two seconds. I will try to make GIF for you.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63MY1LSp/bell.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 04, 2022, 07:38:05 PM
Here, I hope you will be able to see the raised hand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG55NqvH/ezgif-com-gif-maker.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 04, 2022, 09:09:22 PM
Here, I hope you will be able to see the raised hand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG55NqvH/ezgif-com-gif-maker.gif)

Thank you for this, Mr Jackson, but I see a face and hair, and no hint of a waving hand or handkerchief.

Glad to see that we now agree that Bell is indeed showing the same moment as Towner
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 04, 2022, 09:23:52 PM
Thank you for this, Mr Jackson, but I see a face and hair, and no hint of a waving hand or handkerchief.

Glad to see that we now agree that Bell is indeed showing the same moment as Towner
Well, you need to cross your eyes a little bit..
Maybe someone can make better GIFs for you but do not expect to see handkerchief engraving...
Yes, I got confused with Hughes/Bell/Towner/Weigman/Darnel... films.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 05, 2022, 01:58:43 AM
Well, you need to cross your eyes a little bit..
Maybe someone can make better GIFs for you but do not expect to see handkerchief engraving...
Yes, I got confused with Hughes/Bell/Towner/Weigman/Darnel... films.

No, it's still just a lady's head. If you look at the superior reproductions of the Bell frames starting here------------------

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=4

------------------I'm confident you will see your error
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 05, 2022, 06:18:31 AM
No, it's still just a lady's head. If you look at the superior reproductions of the Bell frames starting here------------------

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=4

------------------I'm confident you will see your error
Ah, I forgot on Robin gallery, will try to make better GIF for you later tommorow.
Handkerchief came in latter frames than your link.
Sorry, but no error...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 05, 2022, 07:43:20 PM
Ah, I forgot on Robin gallery, will try to make better GIF for you later tommorow.
Handkerchief came in latter frames than your link.
Sorry, but no error...

I invited you to "look at the superior reproductions of the Bell frames starting here"----as you browse through the subsequent frames you will seek in vain for a raised hand waving a handkerchief
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 06, 2022, 12:00:46 AM
Maybe the image of Lovelady was cut and  pasted to coverOswalds face yo when Oswald stepped down to take a look around that corner momentarily and was captured by Altgensohoto raising the bottle.




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on January 06, 2022, 12:39:17 AM
Here, I hope you will be able to see the raised hand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG55NqvH/ezgif-com-gif-maker.gif)

What programs are people using to create these gif effects?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 06, 2022, 08:13:50 AM

Presuming the flowing are true:

1. Mrs Reid’s account of an Oswald encounter approx 2 min post shots in the 2nd floor office of TSBD is either confused or is outright false
2. DPD Officer Barnett’s WC testimony of locking the front doors not later than 3 min post shots is approximately accurate
3. Pierce Allman reporter entered TSBD entrance before doors locked at 3min post shots has encounter with Oswald in the ground floor front lobby/foyer
4. Buell W. Frazier returned into TSBD  via front entrance door before doors locked by 3 min post shots
5. BW Frazier’s belated 50 year memory of seeing Oswald around Houston/Elm st. Intersection just before Frazier returned into the TSBD(ie. approx 2min 50 sec post shots)
6. Oswalds darker blue jacket found in
The Domino room about a month after the assassination.
7. Bledsoe’s claim of seeing Hole in Oswald brown shirt while on a bus is plausible if Oswald left TSBD not wearing a jacket = PM in dark shirt with sleeves rolled up, leaving TSBD without wearing jacket.
7a. Earlene Roberts , The boarding room lady, stayed seeing Oswald in light colored long sleeve shirt= Oswald not wearing a dark blue jacket.
7b.William Walleys observation of Oswald wearing a jacket and a bracelet is contrived after reading newspaper and seeing Oswalds handcuffed hand wearing the bracelet,
8. Curtain rods possibly found in the TSBD about a month later via an report date anomaly.
9. The 2nd floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald and Baker never occurred.
10. Bottle with large oval shsped white label  in photograph of the TSBD at steps right were PM was standing in Weigman film raising white object to mouth level.
11. FBI agent Hosty Notes about Oswald going out front to watch the P. parade
12. 3 interrogation reports to refute the Hosty note and coincidental  failure of Wiil Fritz to disclose the Hosty note
13. An anomaly still not plausibly  explained of the strange shadow on Lovelady= suspicion of alteration of the Weigman film
14. 2 anomalies in 2 versions of the Altgens photo no. 6, A. the Cronkite version showing an arm upraised apparently holding up an horizontal object (=bottle). . And B: the bare arm changes to being covered with texture pattern of Loveladys shirt.
Significance is that the arm cannot belong to the black man (Carl Lewis) because his sleeves were not rolled up.
15: Sarah Stanton has been eliminated as a viable person who could be PM, and her location is now the white shirt person with both hands upraised whom is at the east side center rail location on the TSBD entrance steps, immediately adjacent to Lovelady on the opposite side(west) of the hand rail.
16. Further corroboration for Stantons location is given by Lovelady in an interview describing the person with both hands upraised as being a woman who worked in the 2nd floor office of TSBD. Additionally Lovelady has WC testimony of being right next to Sarah Stanton.
17. Besides Lovelady, Oswald was the only other probable TSBD employee out on the front steps to have had a bottle of soda.
18. So far all other TSBD employees have been accounted for and none are plausibly PM.
19. The figure of PM if stepping down 1 step makes the 5’9” Oswald appear to be about 5’2” relative to BW Frazier at the top of the landing.
20. It is possible for PM to have BOTH feet on one step lower than the top landing level and still be in shadow.

Conclusion: If all the above are probably correct then  Oswald is the most probable person to be PM absent some unknown person yet to discovered.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 07, 2022, 12:17:57 AM
Let's not forget the man Officer Baker caught walking away from the rear stairway on "the third or fourth floor":

approximately 30 years old, 5’9”, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.”

I strongly suspect that

a) the man Officer Baker encountered was in fact this fellow-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/e6Y4jUd.jpg)

and

b) his name was Mr John Thomas Masen---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/7MY41y0.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 07, 2022, 08:46:20 AM
I invited you to "look at the superior reproductions of the Bell frames starting here"----as you browse through the subsequent frames you will seek in vain for a raised hand waving a handkerchief
Went through Robin Unger's Bell gallery and it is missing several important frames so I can not make good GIF from it.
In any case, my final respond to you is that I have no doubt that one of the ladies was waiving with her handkerchief towards the limo.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 07, 2022, 08:51:29 AM
What programs are people using to create these gif effects?
https://ezgif.com/maker
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on January 07, 2022, 09:22:18 AM
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/BellTowner.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 07, 2022, 04:34:55 PM
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/BellTowner.gif)
Thank you very much Chris, great GIF.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on January 07, 2022, 05:25:39 PM
https://ezgif.com/maker

Thanks  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 08, 2022, 05:27:41 AM
Mrs Garner was on the 4th floor by the rear staircase and saw Baker/Truly coming up using the staircase =
Encounter on 4th floor improbable

On 3rd floor , if the shooter from 6th floor is the man encountered, would require the west elevator to be used to bypass Mrs Garner without being seen by Garner.

west elevator used  by the 6th floor gunman, would require an accomplice who could take the elevator back to the 5th floor by not later than approx 70secs post shots. 

If using the west elevator and getting off on the 3rd floor, the gunman would have arrived there by 40sec post shots, so it’s doubtful any encounter with Baker/Truly would have been probable UNLESS: The shooter hears Adams and Styles whom at 40 sec post shots are just crossing the 3rd floor landing!!!

Having to wait until no longer hearing A&S on the staircase = approx 60 sec post shots= Shooter arriving to 2nd floor landing approx 70-75 sec , hearing Truly shout up and so the shooter diverts to the 2nd floor lunchroom 80 sec post shots and was somehow still spotted by Baker aortic 85 sev post shots.

Note: it’s not improbable the shooter could have taken east elevator all the way to 2nd floor exiting there by 55 sec post shots and then was spotted by Baker because the shooter had just exited the lunch  room, and he was actually coming down the 1st half of the 1st floor staircase at 75 sec post shots when Truly shouted.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 08, 2022, 05:30:34 AM
Edit: All reference to an elevator being using by a 6th floor shooter are to be considered as The EAST elevator.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2022, 02:32:12 AM
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/BellTowner.gif)

Superb gif, Mr Davidson---------------painstakingly syncing up the two films clips!  Thumb1:

Mr Jackson, is this where you are seeing a handkerchief?

(https://i.imgur.com/BcVYGYN.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 10, 2022, 07:36:05 PM
Superb gif, Mr Davidson---------------painstakingly syncing up the two films clips!  Thumb1:

Mr Jackson, is this where you are seeing a handkerchief?

(https://i.imgur.com/BcVYGYN.jpg)
Absolutely. There are at least three flips.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 10, 2022, 09:32:55 PM
Absolutely. There are at least three flips.

Whatever those flickers are, they are too far east to be the object we're seeing in Towner. (------------->Different camera angles)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2022, 02:01:22 AM
Mrs Garner was on the 4th floor by the rear staircase and saw Baker/Truly coming up using the staircase =
Encounter on 4th floor improbable

Not necessarily! If Ms Garner sees Mr Truly vouch for a man as an employee, it will not even occur to her that the man is anything other than an employee. Unless she is an unusually suspicious person, she will assume that the building superintendent knows what he is talking about.

As such, the encounter will be no more memorable to her than, say, seeing Messrs Jarman, Norman and Williams coming down on to the fourth floor a little after that. After the event, the presence on those stairs of any manual worker other than Mr Oswald, the accused assassin will appear to have no significance.

Mr Barry Ernest spoke with Ms Garner in 2011:

Being in the position she was as quickly as she was, I asked Mrs. Garner if she happened to notice the escaping assassin on the stairs.
She laughed at the question.
"No, I don't remember that.  I don't remember seeing him at all that day…except on TV."


Actually, she may well have seen the escaping assassin by the stairs. But-----------because he was not the employee whose face would soon be on TV-----------she may have failed to understand what she was seeing: Mr Truly, the building superintendent, tricking the motorcycle policeman into believing that a non-employee was an employee and hence ok

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2022, 02:11:33 AM
Officer Baker's unexpectedly quick dash into the building forced Mr Truly to vouch for a non-employee as an employee (the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up)-------------i.e. assist in the escape of a fleeing assassin. Afterwards, Mr Truly knows he is in potentially very hot water.

So what does he do? He says to the ever-dependable Mr Jack Dougherty: 'I need you to say you went upstairs, heard a shot and then came downstairs'. If the officer talks about the rear stairway encounter, Mr Dougherty can fit the bill as the 'employee' caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor. He is after all the only white manual worker available for the job.

As it turns out, the encounter by the stairway goes away because a lunchroom fiction is written to replace it (and the encounter with Mr Oswald at the front door). Mr Dougherty is thus no longer needed as the upper-floor employee. But he can't just change his story completely--------he just morphs it into one that ends with a descent by elevator
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 11, 2022, 03:16:16 AM
Whatever those flickers are, they are too far east to be the object we're seeing in Towner. (------------->Different camera angles)
I am very sorry but you.obviously have couple of problems on resolving.the subject... One of them is addmiting you are wrong...
Everything here is in perfect alignment, no need to discus futher. Thank you.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 11, 2022, 04:09:06 AM
I am very sorry but you.obviously have couple of problems on resolving.the subject... One of them is addmiting you are wrong...
Everything here is in perfect alignment, no need to discus futher. Thank you.

I'm sorry, Mr Jackson, but declaring they are aligned is not the same as showing they are aligned. They are not aligned. Your 'handkerchief' in Bell is too far to the east to be the waving object we see in Towner.

Using what's behind the man in the white cowboy suit (yellow dot) as our reference point gives us a sense of how far west of Ms Towner Mr Bell is:

(https://i.imgur.com/0QalJAX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1LwsG1D.jpg)

Note the relative position of your handkerchief in Bell (pink dot) to the man in front of your lady in black (blue dot): slightly to the right as we look on.

Are you seriously arguing that-------------if you move far enough east from Bell's position so as to align with Ms Towner's angle----------you will see the waving object almost directly over the head of blue dot man? Really?

The fact that these clips are so perfectly time-synced means there really is no wriggle room here:

(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/BellTowner.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 12, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
They are not aligned. Your 'handkerchief' in Bell is too far to the east to be the waving object we see in Towner.
Please show where do you think Tina Towner is in Bell film?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 12, 2022, 10:31:06 PM
Please show where do you think Tina Towner is in Bell film?

Why? What's the relevance?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 13, 2022, 05:35:07 AM
Why? What's the relevance?
Are you serious!? You are writing about aligment and now asking what is the relevance of where Tina Towner is!? You obiously have very, very serious trouble of admitting you might be wrong here. It is a very simple yet important question for you and your respond only show how low credibility and seriousnes you have on this forum.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 13, 2022, 11:10:28 PM
Are you serious!? You are writing about aligment and now asking what is the relevance of where Tina Towner is!? You obiously have very, very serious trouble of admitting you might be wrong here. It is a very simple yet important question for you and your respond only show how low credibility and seriousnes you have on this forum.

Calm down, Mr Jackson............... You asked me to please show where I think Ms Towner is in the Bell film. Not having said a word about Ms Towner in the Bell film, I merely asked you to explain your surprising request.

For you to state that I am now asking what is the relevance of where Ms Towner is is just silly: the angle at which she is filming the relevant area is after all central to my analysis of your 'handkerchief'. What I am asking is what is the relevance of finding her in the Bell film. Get it now?

As for my observation that your 'handkerchief' cannot be the waving object we see in Towner because it's in the wrong place, I stand by it fully. Can you refute it? Or would you prefer to deflect?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 14, 2022, 12:28:35 PM
Calm down, Mr Jackson............... You asked me to please show where I think Ms Towner is in the Bell film. Not having said a word about Ms Towner in the Bell film, I merely asked you to explain your surprising request.

For you to state that I am now asking what is the relevance of where Ms Towner is is just silly: the angle at which she is filming the relevant area is after all central to my analysis of your 'handkerchief'. What I am asking is what is the relevance of finding her in the Bell film. Get it now?

As for my observation that your 'handkerchief' cannot be the waving object we see in Towner because it's in the wrong place, I stand by it fully. Can you refute it? Or would you prefer to deflect?
Since you can not answer simple question on Tina Towner possition in Bell film, I really have no time to help you out in realising you are wrong. What is seen in both Bell and Towner films is waving handkerchief. Please find somebody else to help you out. All the best.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 15, 2022, 02:39:44 AM
Since you can not answer simple question on Tina Towner possition in Bell film, I really have no time to help you out in realising you are wrong. What is seen in both Bell and Towner films is waving handkerchief. Please find somebody else to help you out. All the best.

I'm sorry, Mr Jackson, but wishing the problem away doesn't make the problem go away.

Let's try this again, shall we?

Look at Mr Davidson's synced gif again.

Directly behind White Cowboy Suit Man from Towner's POV is the eastern column of the entranceway. Yes? Good!
Directly behind White Cowboy Suit Man from Bell's POV is the edge of the wall sign. Yes? Good!
To go from Towner's POV to Bell's POV, one would have to move significantly to one's left (i.e. west). Yes? Good!

Now! Let us imagine that you are right about the waving object: it is being waved by the woman in black standing just behind the man in light-colored manual clothes.

You are looking through Ms Towner's camera. You keep your eye on the waving object: it is almost directly over the head of the man in light-colored manual clothes. You start moving left and don't stop until you are west enough to be seeing from Bell's angle. What do you see now?

I'll tell you what you most certainly do not see: the head of the man in light-colored manual clothes well to the left (as you look) of the handkerchief.

And yet this is what your 'handkerchief' claim would have us believe we are seeing. It's a physical impossibility. And like I say----------the fact that these frames have been so expertly synced by Mr Davidson leaves you no wriggle room here, no option of saying that these are slightly different moments in time and so the handkerchief in Bell has moved further east, etc.

(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/BellTowner.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 16, 2022, 09:01:10 AM
I'm sorry, Mr Jackson, but wishing the problem away doesn't make the problem go away.

Let's try this again, shall we?

Look at Mr Davidson's synced gif again.

Directly behind White Cowboy Suit Man from Towner's POV is the eastern column of the entranceway. Yes? Good!
Directly behind White Cowboy Suit Man from Bell's POV is the edge of the wall sign. Yes? Good!
To go from Towner's POV to Bell's POV, one would have to move significantly to one's left (i.e. west). Yes? Good!

Now! Let us imagine that you are right about the waving object: it is being waved by the woman in black standing just behind the man in light-colored manual clothes.

You are looking through Ms Towner's camera. You keep your eye on the waving object: it is almost directly over the head of the man in light-colored manual clothes. You start moving left and don't stop until you are west enough to be seeing from Bell's angle. What do you see now?

I'll tell you what you most certainly do not see: the head of the man in light-colored manual clothes well to the left (as you look) of the handkerchief.

And yet this is what your 'handkerchief' claim would have us believe we are seeing. It's a physical impossibility. And like I say----------the fact that these frames have been so expertly synced by Mr Davidson leaves you no wriggle room here, no option of saying that these are slightly different moments in time and so the handkerchief in Bell has moved further east, etc.

(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/BellTowner.gif)
Absolute nonsense.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 17, 2022, 12:48:36 AM
Absolute nonsense.

Really, Mr Jackson? Then you should have absolutely no difficulty in showing me where I've gone wrong.

Over to you...........................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 17, 2022, 04:36:31 AM
Really, Mr Jackson? Then you should have absolutely no difficulty in showing me where I've gone wrong.

Over to you...........................
No, I do not have any dificulty to show where you are wrong as I have show you already but you obviously have huge dificulty in understanding a very simple thing.

I just have dificulty in understanding are you joking with me or you really really do not understand...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on January 17, 2022, 09:40:36 PM
My animated gif simulates the view of Tina Towner shifting toward Bell’s view. The focus is on the four characters from left to right: KhakiManA, HankyGirl, 5'11" Danny Arce, and Cowboy. The simulation does a good job, imo, of corroborating the superb graphic of Davidson along with Patrick’s correlation of the (apparent) wind-blown flapping handkerchief seen in both films.
(https://i.imgur.com/AVYaawg.gif)
James
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 18, 2022, 01:24:02 AM
No, I do not have any dificulty to show where you are wrong as I have show you already but you obviously have huge dificulty in understanding a very simple thing.

I just have dificulty in understanding are you joking with me or you really really do not understand...

The only thing I don't understand, Mr Jackson, is why you are so reluctant to explain to us why I am wrong when I say your 'handkerchief' in Bell is in the wrong place to be the waving object we see in Towner. Then again------maybe I do understand
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 18, 2022, 01:43:19 AM
My animated gif simulates the view of Tina Towner shifting toward Bell’s view. The focus is on the four characters from left to right: KhakiManA, HankyGirl, 5'11" Danny Arce, and Cowboy. The simulation does a good job, imo, of corroborating the superb graphic of Davidson along with Patrick’s correlation of the (apparent) wind-blown flapping handkerchief seen in both films.
(https://i.imgur.com/AVYaawg.gif)
James

Mr Hackerott, I'm afraid this is not even close. Your simulation ends with the handkerchief directly behind the head of KhakiMan. This is a long ways from where Mr Jackson sees a handkerchief (red dot in real Bell):

(https://i.imgur.com/mQn3h2K.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/faGumDA.jpg)

You seem to have mistaken HankyGirl's face and hair for a hand & handkerchief. (Use the woman in blue beside her for comparison)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on January 18, 2022, 04:16:11 PM
...why I am wrong when I say your 'handkerchief' in Bell is in the wrong place to be the waving object we see in Towner...
It is obvious from a plane it is the same object but you are not able to accept you are wrong.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 18, 2022, 08:47:48 PM
It is obvious from a plane it is the same object but you are not able to accept you are wrong.

Still not able to come up with a refutation of my analysis, Mr Jackson? Noted.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 20, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
I’ve been pondering the issue of the white object in PM’s hand and the bottle  (large white label) left  at the step virtually where PM would have stepped down one step ( thus 5’2” height discrepancy explained).

And I’ve thought what reason did Oswald have to return into the TSBD at all?

If it’s probable that the jacket was left in the Domino room, and curtain rods/bag left behind, and the white label  bottle not taken up to the 2nd floor lunchroom, then what’s the reason for Oswald not just to take off immediately after he finds out (from Mr.Shelley?) that work has been canceled for the rest of day?

Perhaps to go up the 2nd floor coke machine to get another soda pop?

Why not take the bottle Oswald had been previously drinking when captured in the Weigman film?

The answer may be that this 1st bottle of soda was NOT bought from any machine inside the TSBD but was actually a bottle that Oswald had gone OUT of TSBD to buy approx 12:01 pm.

This would explain no sighting of Oswald after his 12:00 pm brief statement to Eddie Piper until the sighting by Carolyn Arnold approx 12:15 pm allegedly In the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Piper wasn’t sure whether Oswald had said he was “going out” or “going back up

So now the Mrs Reid encounter is back in the realm of probability if Oswald was going back up to simply buy a coke AFTER an encounter with Baker/Truly on the ground floor just inside the lobby when Oswald still had on his brown shirt.

After this encounter, Baker/Truly continue on their way to the rear elevators and then up the rear staircases heading for the roof top.

Oswald stops into the storage room
and takes off his brown shirt expecting to go back to work? He goes up to the 2nd floor lunchroom following about 15 secs AFTER Baker/Truly, via going thru the same route past Truly’s office, since Truly probable left the countertop open after unlocking it.( He presuming other DPD officers likely would be following Baker )


Oswald arrives into the 2nd floor lunchroom  probably not seen since Mr.Piper probably returned to the south side of the ground floor to look out a south facing window.

It’s about 15 secs AFTER B/T have already ascended to the 3rd floor. The time is approx  1min 45 sec post shots.

Oswald in just his T -shirt goes to the machine and buys a coke and then decides to return to ground floor front lobby via taking a shortcut thru the 2nd floor office.

Hence, Oswald enters approx 2min post shots into the office as Mrs Reid enters from the front door. He has on a T-shirt and has “ full” coke in his hand.

Oswald exits therefore from the front door of the office approx 2:20 sec post shots if walking slightly slow at 4ft per sec.

Oswald thus has time to either go down the front steps or (even faster), use the passenger elevator which allows Oswald to have met Peirce Allman reporter by 2min 30 sec post shots possibly just secs after Oswald gets his brown shirt from the storage room and is putting it on. Such activity might explain Allmans inability to remember exactly what Oswald was wearing.

Oswald can then get out the front door by approx 2 min 45 sec to be  seen by Buell W.Frazier just secs before BWF returns into the TSBD before DPD officer Barnett locks the front door around 3min post shots .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2022, 01:25:39 AM
I’ve been pondering the issue of the white object in PM’s hand and the bottle  (large white label) left  at the step virtually where PM would have stepped down one step ( thus 5’2” height discrepancy explained).

And I’ve thought what reason did Oswald have to return into the TSBD at all?

If it’s probable that the jacket was left in the Domino room, and curtain rods/bag left behind, and the white label  bottle not taken up to the 2nd floor lunchroom, then what’s the reason for Oswald not just to take off immediately after he finds out (from Mr.Shelley?) that work has been canceled for the rest of day?

Perhaps to go up the 2nd floor coke machine to get another soda pop?

Why not take the bottle Oswald had been previously drinking when captured in the Weigman film?

The answer may be that this 1st bottle of soda was NOT bought from any machine inside the TSBD but was actually a bottle that Oswald had gone OUT of TSBD to buy approx 12:01 pm.

Why then would Mr Oswald himself tell Capt. Fritz he bought a Coca Cola in the second floor lunchroom BEFORE coming back down to one to eat lunch and BEFORE going outside to watch the P. Parade?

(https://i.imgur.com/RDcuQOv.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 22, 2022, 03:08:20 AM
Well considering the Hosty note is probably not some fabricated version,  since it’s apparent the Fritz was worried enough not to include such note, then the bottle must be a coke bottle.

So my attempt to reconcile Mrs Reid was probably a wasted effort 🙄

Since BW Frazier didn’t see any smaller lunch bag , what about Oswalds lunch?
There was a Refrigerator in the 2nd floor lunchroom so it’s possible that some fruit /bread / and cheese could been stored there for several days of the week . Therefore Oswald not apparently having a bag lunch on Friday morning, does not necessarily rule out he was havimg sandwich and fruit acquired from the preexisting items in the refrigerator.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 22, 2022, 10:48:56 PM
Well considering the Hosty note is probably not some fabricated version,  since it’s apparent the Fritz was worried enough not to include such note, then the bottle must be a coke bottle.

So my attempt to reconcile Mrs Reid was probably a wasted effort 🙄

Since BW Frazier didn’t see any smaller lunch bag , what about Oswalds lunch?

If Mr Oswald carried a bag as described by Mr Frazier, then that bag could easily have contained a (wrapped) cheese sandwich and an apple (as well as the two curtain rods later found and tested for Mr Oswald's prints)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Gilbride on January 27, 2022, 08:51:35 PM
Frederick Clements, back on March 14th, asked "Why is NBC refusing to release the original Wiegman and Darnell films?"

That's a good question, and personally I would attribute their ongoing refusal to Deep State arrogance. They are more than likely beholden to the CIA. All that the JFK research community requires is temporary access to these films, in order to obtain a digital scan of small portions of these films-  that show the TSBD front landing-  but NBC has set up the requirement that only an established film production company with a detailed project plan may be granted access to their newsreels. I still have my e-mails from January 10, 2018 when I contacted the NBC Archives.

This is information that belongs in the public domain, yet they act as if they're the privileged guardians of the information on this newsreel-  which was after all made for the purpose of public consumption, especially now since it's about such an important historical event as the Kennedy assassination. Personally I don't think this reluctance has anything to do with PrayerMan; instead it has to do with wanting to keep attention away from Book Depository personnel.

Over the next several months, in 2018, I contacted RFK Jr., talk show host Michael Savage, Representative Walter Jones, ARRB chair John Tunheim, filmmaker Ken Burns and Trump aide Roger Stone, appealing for their assistance accessing these NBC films. I explained the long-standing need to have the front landing personnel clarified (as best as possible) for the JFK research community, and assured them that the height argument-  which I detailed-  unequivocably demonstrated that Oswald could not have been on the landing. Nothing in the official narrative-  that he was up in the sniper's nest-  would be altered one bit. Yet the only response I ever received was from a secretary to Ken Burns, who explained that he was too busy with other projects at the time. Personally I concluded that the JFK assassination was still such a radioactive hot potato that nobody dared get involved looking into it.

My height argument is on pp. 6-7 of Death of the Lunchroom Hoax https://jfkinsidejob.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DEATH%20OF%20THE%20LUNCHROOM%20HOAX%20_Final_.pdf  It estimated PrayerMan's height as 5' 2-1/2", and I know that John Mytton's computer graphic skills obtained an approximate value of 5'4". This is typical of a woman's height and way too short to be Lee Harvey Oswald. And there has been other film forensic work that correlates with the figure being a woman.

The onus-  the burden of proof-  is with the PrayerMan devotees. They are the ones who are required to come up with extraordinary proof for the extraordinary claim that this blurry figure is Lee Harvey Oswald. The fact that it is not goes right to the heart of the Hosty draft note, and their allegation that Oswald actually "went outside to watch the P. Parade"

The Sixth Floor Museum has had a digital scan of the Darnell newsreel available for public viewing for several years. They don't release copies of film frames due to copyright claims. Rather than attempt to persuade NBC, it would be more constructive, in my opinion, to persuade the Museum or the copyright holders that a few film frames need to be made publicly available.

I find it very strange that not one researcher, not to my knowledge, from among the PrayerMan devotees, has looked at the Museum's Darnell film and proclaimed that PrayerMan more closely resembles Oswald-  more than the blurry reproductions we have available on the internet. This would be shouted from the rooftops, if that were the case.

But it's not the case, is it?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 28, 2022, 03:29:23 AM
My height argument is on pp. 6-7 of Death of the Lunchroom Hoax https://jfkinsidejob.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DEATH%20OF%20THE%20LUNCHROOM%20HOAX%20_Final_.pdf  It estimated PrayerMan's height as 5' 2-1/2", and I know that John Mytton's computer graphic skills obtained an approximate value of 5'4".

So Mr Mytton is your go to guy on this, Mr Gilbride? This shows again how confused you get in your zeal to keep Mr Oswald away from that front entrance.

In the linked document you write (emphasis added):

The second empirical fact is that PrayerMan’s west arm moves downward, resembling a drinking motion, as Lovelady goes down a step. This is nicely
illustrated below in the photo-enhancement from Kamp’s essay. Importantly, we can see that the distance from his elbow to the west wall is roughly the same in both Wiegman and Darnell. So he didn’t retreat into the corner during the intervening 20 seconds between the two films.


The problem with this? Your hero Mr Mytton's 'computer graphic skills', upon which he based his height 'analysis', put Mr Oswald right back in the corner in Darnell.......................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Gilbride on January 28, 2022, 08:37:16 PM
Well, I've just sent off an e-mail to the Sixth Floor Museum, in hopes of furthering the question of the PrayerMan figure. Ideally I'll get contact information for the Darnell film copyright owners, and with that hopefully persuade them to copy a few frames for the general public's benefit. I should hear back from Stephen Fagin next week some time.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on January 28, 2022, 10:20:10 PM
Has this person ever been identified?
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/PM-alternative2daed39c970a2110.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on January 28, 2022, 11:36:49 PM
Has this person ever been identified?
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/PM-alternative2daed39c970a2110.gif)
you mean 'prayerman' after he took off his shirt?  no, but really, 'prayerman' was just a dude off the street, trying to get a pic' o' da' prez' as he was goin' by that last mile+
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Gilbride on January 29, 2022, 05:51:02 PM
Possibly it was one of the Houston St. warehouse guys, Franklin Wester or Gordon Smith. I'm working on a distant memory from my (References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited ) days around 2013, but I think neither of them acknowledged watching the motorcade. This photo looks like it was taken around 1:00 PM, so perhaps one of them walked up to the Depository to see what was going on. Just a guess. As far as I know there are no pictures of Wester or Smith, nor even Eddie Shields, who was the foreman down there. A bookkeeper in his 60s, H.S. Aiken, kept his office down there. Charles Givens occasionally also worked down there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on January 29, 2022, 06:24:57 PM
Possibly it was one of the Houston St. warehouse guys, Franklin Wester or Gordon Smith. I'm working on a distant memory from my (References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited ) days around 2013, but I think neither of them acknowledged watching the motorcade. This photo looks like it was taken around 1:00 PM, so perhaps one of them walked up to the Depository to see what was going on. Just a guess. As far as I know there are no pictures of Wester or Smith, nor even Eddie Shields, who was the foreman down there. A bookkeeper in his 60s, H.S. Aiken, kept his office down there. Charles Givens occasionally also worked down there.

So prayerman was quiet possibly one of the tsbd guys that worked at the other warehouse? That destroys the prayerman theory.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 29, 2022, 06:36:33 PM
The unidentified guy in the picture is Robert Edwards.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 30, 2022, 01:43:13 AM
The Sixth Floor Museum has forwarded me a scan from the Darnell film, which has higher resolution than anything I've seen on the internet. I am going to seek permission from the copyright holder, which is NBC Universal, to post it on-line for the benefit of the research community.
...
Photo-researchers should have much more to eleborate with this image. I am told it is a Full HD scan made at 1920 x 1080 pixels. The Museum is not sure which generation of Darnell film it originated from. Personally I can't imagine a newsfilm losing any significant amount of quality during the early phases of copying, and we don't even know whether this may in fact be a scan from the original film.

Hopefully NBC Universal will respond favorably during the coming week...

This is exciting news indeed, Mr Gilbride!  Thumb1:

Would I be right in understanding that you have been sent a scan of a single frame from the Darnell film clip? If so, is it the frame below?

(https://i.imgur.com/kUlWZEe.jpg)

Cf! Mr James Hackerott visited the Sixth Floor Museum on (I think) two occasions, and kindly shared with members of this forum a) sketches he made b) a tracing-------------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/fUie6Xb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OtK4dUl.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on January 30, 2022, 02:52:49 AM
I think it might be Freddie Kruger. The shiny thing is his glove.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 01, 2022, 08:51:30 PM
I strongly suspect that the main reason the identification of Oswald was based on the "hairline" of the Prayer Man figure. A close-up of Darnell (taken from the Prayer Man website) reveals the figure does indeed appear to have a hairline similar to Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLDDmC8g/PM-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

It must be noted that this picture is covered with "distortions", most probably a product of enhancement. These distortions are everywhere and consist of patches of horizontal lines close together. Look at Prayer Man's right elbow and you will see one very clearly. Note how it "drags" a darker colour into the elbow.
Now look at Prayer Man's head and you will see such a distortion. There is one that runs through the top of the head and carries on, cutting off the dark shadow of the door frame behind.
In the extreme close-up below this extended distortion is picked out with a red arrow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9XGc8WhC/PM-1-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Prayer Man's distinctive hairline is the product of distortions created by enhancing the picture.
It has nothing to do with Oswald's hairline.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 01, 2022, 10:20:30 PM
I strongly suspect that the main reason the identification of Oswald was based on the "hairline" of the Prayer Man figure. A close-up of Darnell (taken from the Prayer Man website) reveals the figure does indeed appear to have a hairline similar to Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLDDmC8g/PM-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

It must be noted that this picture is covered with "distortions", most probably a product of enhancement.

Exactly, so let's look at that frame in the unenhanced version, as shared by the superb Mr Robin Unger. The receding hairline is already quite evident in this unenhanced (i.e. undistorted) version-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/etY5GbJ.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 01, 2022, 10:42:42 PM
Exactly, so let's look at that frame in the unenhanced version, as shared by the superb Mr Robin Unger. The receding hairline is already quite evident in this unenhanced (i.e. undistorted) version-----------------

(https://i.imgur.com/etY5GbJ.jpg)

 Thumb1:

"Unenhanced"  :D :D

When we look closer the distortions, although softened (through further enhancement, no doubt), are still present (circled red).
The distortion running through Prayer Man's head is still clearly present (red arrow).
Prayer Man's hairline is a product of initial enhancement which appears to have been "softened", leaving "Oswald's hairline".

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRm86gcr/PM-3.png) (https://postimg.cc/479KrfF2)

Unlucky Alan.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2022, 12:07:48 AM
"Unenhanced"  :D :D

This image--------presented honestly by the honest Mr Unger---------should have been your reference, Mr O'Meara, not the ridiculous version you drew your silly tendentious conclusions from

(https://i.imgur.com/etY5GbJ.jpg)

Quote
When we look closer the distortions, although softened (through further enhancement, no doubt), are still present (circled red).
The distortion running through Prayer Man's head is still clearly present (red arrow).
Prayer Man's hairline is a product of initial enhancement which appears to have been "softened", leaving "Oswald's hairline".

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRm86gcr/PM-3.png) (https://postimg.cc/479KrfF2)

~Grin~

Translation: It looks like LHO's hairline; I wish it didn't look like LHO's hairline; so here are some makey-uppey reasons I've come up with for why it is in fact the full head of non-receding gray hair of an obese woman who was standing to Wesley Frazier's east.

Of course, Mr O'Meara, we all know that if it was Mr Frazier you didn't want to be in the doorway in Darnell you'd be BSing us with all the reasons why his hairline is merely an optical illusion caused by 'enhancement', 'distortion', etc. etc. Weak sauce!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 02, 2022, 12:54:04 AM
This image--------presented honestly by the honest Mr Unger---------should have been your reference, Mr O'Meara, not the ridiculous version you drew your silly tendentious conclusions from

(https://i.imgur.com/etY5GbJ.jpg)

~Grin~

Translation: It looks like LHO's hairline; I wish it didn't look like LHO's hairline; so here are some makey-uppey reasons I've come up with for why it is in fact the full head of non-receding gray hair of an obese woman who was standing to Wesley Frazier's east.

Of course, Mr O'Meara, we all know that if it was Mr Frazier you didn't want to be in the doorway in Darnell you'd be BSing us with all the reasons why his hairline is merely an optical illusion caused by 'enhancement', 'distortion', etc. etc. Weak sauce!

"This image--------presented honestly by the honest Mr Unger---------should have been your reference, Mr O'Meara, not the ridiculous version you drew your silly tendentious conclusions from."

The "ridiculous version" was taken from your place of worship - the PrayerMan website.
And if you're saying those distortions aren't there, on both versions, it's you who looks ridiculous.
It's there for everyone to see.
No way around that one Alan  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2022, 01:28:56 AM
"This image--------presented honestly by the honest Mr Unger---------should have been your reference, Mr O'Meara, not the ridiculous version you drew your silly tendentious conclusions from."

The "ridiculous version" was taken from your place of worship - the PrayerMan website.

Sounds like it's your place of worship, Mr O'Meara, given you drew your silly conclusions about the hairline from the ultra-modified version you found there. Your amateurism here reminds me of poor Mr Doyle 'detecting' buttons and a purse and sundry other imaginary items on Prayer Man, all so he could 'identify' her as an obese gray-haired woman wearing a dark wig in a professional situation.................

Quote
And if you're saying those distortions aren't there, on both versions, it's you who looks ridiculous.
It's there for everyone to see.
No way around that one Alan  Thumb1:

Nope, you're still getting precisely nowhere:

(https://i.imgur.com/etY5GbJ.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on February 02, 2022, 05:15:53 PM
Thanks for the reply, Richard. Hope you will get permission from NBC to post the image soon.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 02, 2022, 10:42:49 PM
Hello Brian,

Mr. Buell Frazier has stated on several occasions that Mrs. Sarah Stanton was standing to his left. Never once has he ever stated she was to his right.

Mr. Buell Frazier has stated on at least two occasions that he has no clue who the Prayer Man is. That alone proves the Prayer Man is not Sarah Stanton because he would know who the Prayer Man was If he was indeed talking to that person.   

You're being naive, Mr Plant. Mr Frazier knows full well that Prayer Man is indeed Ms Sarah Stanton but will not admit the fact in public because he fears reprisal against himself and his loved ones from the Stanton family
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 04, 2022, 04:29:36 AM
There are several questions with the PM=Sarah Stanton theory.

1. When did Stanton move to that corner?
If it was before Frazier, Williams and Shelley occupy the top landing then its  plausible.
If Stanton remains with Sanders , however until the landing becomes crowded with the presence of Frazier, Williams, Shelley, then it’s less plausible she would try to squeeze thru.

2. What about Billy Lovelady’s WC statement “beside me” when describing where Stanton was in relation to himself?

PM was standing several feet behind Lovelady, so should not Lovelady have said “behind” me?

3. What about a statement that Mr Lovelady allegedly made regarding pointing out the person with hands raised shading her eyes in the Altgens 6 photo as being an office woman who worked on the 2nd floor office?

4. The object in the hand of PM could plausibly be a white coffee cup if PM were Stanton, however , would not such small quantity have been consumed in the 15 minutes prior to PM being seen in the Weigman film frames at 12:30pm?

5. Since a soda bottle appears to have been left coincidentally at the step where PM may have stepped down one step, and since the Hosty note suggests that Oswald had just purchased a  coke before going out to watch the P.Parade, and since that quantity being 3x more approx than coffee cup , the probability (imo) is more in favor of PM=Oswald .

6. Since Stanton did  not describe seeing Baker going up the steps , can this be rationalized if Stanton is on the east side of the hand rail (opposite Lovelady) as having been distracted?

7. If Stanton did leave “immediately” to return into the building, which is the more likely probable position from which to have done so? From the west corner where her way to the front door is blocked by several persons still on the landing, or from a position on the east steps?

7a. If she did leave immediately , should she not have seen Baker, Truly, and Oswald also as they all collide getting into the lobby?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on February 04, 2022, 06:10:59 AM
There are several questions with the PM=Sarah Stanton theory.

1. When did Stanton move to that corner?
If it was before Frazier, Williams and Shelley occupy the top landing then its  plausible.
If Stanton remains with Sanders , however until the landing becomes crowded with the presence of Frazier, Williams, Shelley, then it’s less plausible she would try to squeeze thru.

2. What about Billy Lovelady’s WC statement “beside me” when describing where Stanton was in relation to himself?

PM was standing several feet behind Lovelady, so should not Lovelady have said “behind” me?

3. What about a statement that Mr Lovelady allegedly made regarding pointing out the person with hands raised shading her eyes in the Altgens 6 photo as being an office woman who worked on the 2nd floor office?

4. The object in the hand of PM could plausibly be a white coffee cup if PM were Stanton, however , would not such small quantity have been consumed in the 15 minutes prior to PM being seen in the Weigman film frames at 12:30pm?

5. Since a soda bottle appears to have been left coincidentally at the step where PM may have stepped down one step, and since the Hosty note suggests that Oswald had just purchased a  coke before going out to watch the P.Parade, and since that quantity being 3x more approx than coffee cup , the probability (imo) is more in favor of PM=Oswald .

6. Since Stanton did  not describe seeing Baker going up the steps , can this be rationalized if Stanton is on the east side of the hand rail (opposite Lovelady) as having been distracted?

7. If Stanton did leave “immediately” to return into the building, which is the more likely probable position from which to have done so? From the west corner where her way to the front door is blocked by several persons still on the landing, or from a position on the east steps?

7a. If she did leave immediately , should she not have seen Baker, Truly, and Oswald also as they all collide getting into the lobby?

The fact is, that no witness has ever placed Sarah Stanton in the Prayer Man position.

And not one person who subscribes to this ridiculous conspiracy theory can ever answer for that. They simply want to put 300+ pound Sarah Stanton in the Prayer Man position with zero evidence and claim she is the Prayer Man. That's an absolute joke.     

Sarah Stanton was well over 300+ pounds on the day of the assassination. Her relatives stated she was even bigger than that. The Prayer Man figure is not a 300+ pound person. You can see that in the photo. So that automatically disqualifies her as the figure. Plus the figure has a receding hairline and has the build of a man. These Sarah Stanton fan club members can't answer for that either.

Then we have Buell Frazier who gave several interviews and has always said Sarah Stanton was to his left which is the opposite side of where the Prayer Man was standing. Frazier was asked who the Prayer Man was. He said he "did not know". If it was Stanton he would have said so. That proves the figure is not Stanton.

Then you have all the witness testimony, including Sarah Stanton herself, who never places herself in that position. And the Stanton conspiracy theorists never answer for that either. They want to dismiss that crucial fact.           ​

Looking at a highly distorted smeared photo and claiming you see a "female face" in it is not "proof" of anything. That's wishful thinking.   

Every witness placed Sarah Stanton on the east side, including herself, and Buell Frazier. The Sarah Stanton conspiracy theorists can never answer for how they claim Stanton ended up on opposite side where they want her to be. They just pretend she magically appeared in the Prayer Man position with zero evidence. That's why this whole ridiculous conspiracy theory is laughable.       
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2022, 07:34:15 PM
There are several questions with the PM=Sarah Stanton theory.

Honestly, Mr Mason, the only question with the PM=Sarah Stanton theory is how anyone could ever have entertained such an absurdity. It died many moons ago
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 05, 2022, 09:56:17 AM
I strongly believe that a Prayer Person is Pauline Sanders.
Couple of years ago I found her recent photo on Facebook with the same right hand possition as Prayer Person and it was very, very similar.
Unfortunetly, I lost that photo and cannot find it any more.
The missleading thing here is that you are reffering to statements on who was standing where while the limo was passing by but not the positions in Wiegman film.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on February 05, 2022, 11:03:15 PM
I strongly believe that a Prayer Person is Pauline Sanders.
Couple of years ago I found her recent photo on Facebook with the same right hand possition as Prayer Person and it was very, very similar.
Unfortunetly, I lost that photo and cannot find it any more.
The missleading thing here is that you are reffering to statements on who was standing where while the limo was passing by but not the positions in Wiegman film.

Do you know about when that photo of Sanders was taken?   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 06, 2022, 12:34:17 AM
Do you know about when that photo of Sanders was taken?
I had found her nephew on Facebook based on her obituary. It was published on Facebook like in 2012-13 but the actual photo was earlier. Tried to find it again but lost all the track. I recall that I found her on Ancestry.com but I do not have access now. Also, there is Pauline Sanders on Find a grave but I somehow think that Linda Z. linked it wrongly.
I had that recent photo and the figure and hairline was very, very similar but I lost it at my broken laptop.
It is very interesting to see that in general, we do not have many later photos of witnesses. I was looking for Roscoe White photos after 1963 but none available publicly on the net. Seems that most famlies are not interested to research their relatives participation on 11/22/63.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on February 06, 2022, 01:06:44 AM
I had found her nephew on Facebook based on her obituary. It was published on Facebook like in 2012-13 but the actual photo was earlier. Tried to find it again but lost all the track. I recall that I found her on Ancestry.com but I do not have access now. Also, there is Pauline Sanders on Find a grave but I somehow think that Linda Z. linked it wrongly.
I had that recent photo and the figure and hairline was very, very similar but I lost it at my broken laptop.
It is very interesting to see that in general, we do not have many later photos of witnesses. I was looking for Roscoe White photos after 1963 but none available publicly on the net. Seems that most famlies are not interested to research their relatives participation on 11/22/63.

That's too bad about the photo. I know that there are a couple of older photos of Sanders that were published and both of those are group photos pictured with other women. She was seated in one of the photos and her hair was very short. Most of the witness photos are hard to come by and really aren't the best photos to make an accurate determination.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 06, 2022, 02:02:09 AM
I strongly believe that a Prayer Person is Pauline Sanders.
Couple of years ago I found her recent photo on Facebook with the same right hand possition as Prayer Person and it was very, very similar.
Unfortunetly, I lost that photo and cannot find it any more.
The missleading thing here is that you are reffering to statements on who was standing where while the limo was passing by but not the positions in Wiegman film.

Just how many seconds after the passing of the limo do you believe those Wiegman frames were taken?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 06, 2022, 02:13:03 AM
I had found her nephew on Facebook based on her obituary. It was published on Facebook like in 2012-13 but the actual photo was earlier. Tried to find it again but lost all the track. I recall that I found her on Ancestry.com but I do not have access now. Also, there is Pauline Sanders on Find a grave but I somehow think that Linda Z. linked it wrongly.
I had that recent photo and the figure and hairline was very, very similar but I lost it at my broken laptop.

This one?

(https://i.postimg.cc/ncfnT7VC/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 06, 2022, 11:40:10 AM
That's too bad about the photo. I know that there are a couple of older photos of Sanders that were published and both of those are group photos pictured with other women. She was seated in one of the photos and her hair was very short. Most of the witness photos are hard to come by and really aren't the best photos to make an accurate determination.   
Yes, there are two photos that Linda Z. linked to Pauline Sanders but I think they are wrong.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 06, 2022, 11:41:29 AM
This one?

(https://i.postimg.cc/ncfnT7VC/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
No. What is the source of this photo?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on February 06, 2022, 11:52:25 PM
Yes, there are two photos that Linda Z. linked to Pauline Sanders but I think they are wrong.

One photo claims it's from 1946, plus the photo is small and you can't get a good look at it.     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 11, 2022, 10:14:53 AM

PM does not (imo) appear to be
wearing glasses.  🙄
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2022, 04:15:28 AM
PM does not (imo) appear to be
wearing glasses.  🙄

Maybe she was wearing contact lenses and a male-pattern-receding-hairline wig, which would totally make sense in a professional situation
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 20, 2022, 12:26:07 AM
Question for Mr Gilbride!

Is this is the frame of which you were sent a clearer copy from the Sixth Floor Museum?

(https://i.imgur.com/45H75dw.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 21, 2022, 06:25:47 AM
Oswald had to have stepped down a few steps to get his right forearm upraised w/bottle captured in Altgens 6 photo z255.

The act of taking a drink at this point suggests that Oswald was unaware a rifle shot had  been fired at Z223 and that Oswald had no LOS to JFK . Otherwise,  the effect of JFK slumping over coincident with a loud noise should have been sufficient to cause Oswald and others at the front steps to show some signs of reaction more pronounced than casual activity.

Instead, the TSBD front step crowd
 seems to  have been about as unaware as  dodo birds to the fact shots were fired and the POTUS was hit, until Gloria Cavalry informed them.


This may explain the absence of any comments  by Oswald during his interrogations  of hearing/seeing shots fired, or seeing JFK hit,

Or it could be such comments were left out of the Fritz record (similar to Hosty) since description of such event might further substantiate Oswald’s presence on the front steps at the time of the shooting.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on February 22, 2022, 07:13:36 AM
Question for Mr Gilbride!

Is this is the frame of which you were sent a clearer copy from the Sixth Floor Museum?

(https://i.imgur.com/45H75dw.jpg)

It was a dude off the street taking pictures with a camera, getting out of 'sun plane'?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 25, 2022, 09:35:39 PM
If PM was some random person who was taking some photos, then it’s unusual that no photo from this vantage point has been presented in the vast collection of photographic data in the archives.

It could something like “babushka lady” (allegeded to be Beverly Oliver) , and the camera and photos were confiscated.

However, no one has identified themselves as PM or claimed to have had a camera confiscated while taking photos from that position at the front steps of TSBD.

If the object was a camera , should not more of PMs face be obscured by the object if the camera is of the type with viewfinder in line with the lens? Such would require camera raised to obscure at least one eye.

And if the camera was of the type as Marina Oswald used for the BY photo requiring looking down into a viewfinder on the top then it would be unnecessary  to raise the camera at all from the mid level position.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2022, 03:19:32 AM
It's Lovelady!
It's Shelley!
It's a fat woman!
It's a black man!
It's a random stranger taking photographs that never got developed!
It's a child!

Just some of the wild & wacky theories we have heard over the years from Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 26, 2022, 04:46:00 AM
It's Lovelady!
It's Shelley!
It's a fat woman!
It's a black man!
It's a random stranger taking photographs that never got developed!
It's a child!

Just some of the wild & wacky theories we have heard over the years from Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps!

It's Oswald!
 :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2022, 05:55:24 AM
It's Oswald!
 :D :D :D :D :D

Maybe it's Mr Jack Dougherty? You know, the guy you think is Mr Lovelady's identical twin!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 26, 2022, 06:35:45 AM
Maybe it's Mr Jack Dougherty? You know, the guy you think is Mr Lovelady's identical twin!  :D

 :D :D :D
I almost forgot about your "Lovelady-On-A-Box" theory. Brilliant stuff.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2022, 01:54:46 PM
:D :D :D
I almost forgot about your "Lovelady-On-A-Box" theory. Brilliant stuff.

Not as brilliant as your "Dougherty-A-Giant-Amidst-Pygmy-DPD-Men" one! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 26, 2022, 02:45:20 PM
Not as brilliant as your "Dougherty-A-Giant-Amidst-Pygmy-DPD-Men" one! Thumb1:

Honestly Alan, yours is miles better.
Lovelady stood on a box, in a change of clothing, with a totally different hairline. Genius.
I forgot, was he helped onto his box before or after he was filmed outside the TSBD by Martin and Hughes with his regular clothing and hairline?
Once you've fed your unicorn, let me know  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 26, 2022, 09:54:41 PM
Imo the white bread sandwich theory   is less probable than the white napkin wrapped around a bottle of coke theory.

Unless Oswald had just gotten the sandwich out of the refrigerator in the 2nd floor lunchroom about 12:25 when he got his coke and then did not take a bite of it yet and Oswald was able to hold both a bottle  and the white bread sandwich together in some way in one hand. 🙄


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2022, 06:18:32 AM
Honestly Alan, yours is miles better.
Lovelady stood on a box,

Yes, to be able to see what was going on-----------big deal!

Quote
in a change of clothing,

He simply took off his shirt----------big deal!

Quote
with a totally different hairline.

Cinquesque levels of stoopid here! :D

(https://i.postimg.cc/43L0KhNx/Lovelady-or-Dougherty-frame-0024.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvnpkL5W/Lovelady-in-DPD-frame-0014.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 27, 2022, 05:16:08 PM
Yes, to be able to see what was going on-----------big deal!

Lovelady claimed he took a group of officers up to help with the search.
Any officers helping with the search had arrived long before the Alyea clip was taken.
What was he trying to see so desperately he thought he could see it stood on a box and not by wandering around?
It's as if you're just making it up (alert the media!)

Quote
He simply took off his shirt----------big deal!

Are you just making things up again?
In every photo of Lovelady that day he is wearing his distinctive shirt but suddenly he decides to leave it somewhere so he can show the officers up to the 6th floor.
Maybe he was stood on the box looking for his shirt  :D :D

Quote
Cinquesque levels of stoopid here! :D

(https://i.postimg.cc/43L0KhNx/Lovelady-or-Dougherty-frame-0024.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvnpkL5W/Lovelady-in-DPD-frame-0014.jpg)

Your track record of fraudulent use of photographic evidence precedes you.
My first thought isn't, "Wow! Alan's got a point here"
It's "What is he up to now".

So here is a picture of Lovelady in profile taken from the Martin film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv5YfLvd/Screenshot-125.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Not even Alan can deny this clearly shows Lovelady's hairline (actually, I don't quite believe that)
Note how far back his hairline goes, it is receding back in line with his ears.
There is then a small piece of hair and then a distinctive bald patch.
None of this can be denied.
What also cannot be denied is that the hairline of the man in this Alyea clip is absolutely nothing like Lovelady's profile as pictured by Martin.


A close up from a still proves these men have completely different hairlines:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvjjVJr2/Screenshot-124.png) (https://postimages.org/)


But then Alan comes up with a picture in which Lovelady has a completely different hairline.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDwk72vG/Screenshot-167.png) (https://postimages.org/)

How can this be??
How can the same man have two completely different hairlines?
The first alarm bells start ringing when it is noticed, even though he could've used a picture showing all of Lovelady's head, Alan chose to use a picture where Lovelady's face is obscured.
Why would he do that?
The answer becomes apparent when we use a picture showing Lovelady's face;

(https://i.postimg.cc/63sbCBdz/Screenshot-144.png)


It now becomes clear how one man can have two completely different hairlines.
In the picture I posted from the Martin film, Lovelady is shown in clear profile, revealing the shape of his hairline.
In the picture Alan posted he has used a picture in which Lovelady is looking away from the camera.
It's not a true profile of Lovelady's head, that is how his hairline can look different!

There is absolutely zero doubt the man in the Alyea clip is not Lovelady.
This has been demonstrated conclusively thanks toAlan's trickery.
The reason he doesn't have Lovelady's shirt on is because he is not Lovelady.
The reason he is up on the 6th at a time long after Lovelady takes the officers up to the 6th is because it isn't Lovelady.

The man in the Alyea clip is not stood on a box. He's just really tall. A great big husky fellow.
 (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2022, 11:42:50 PM
Lovelady claimed he took a group of officers up to help with the search.
Any officers helping with the search had arrived long before the Alyea clip was taken.

Mr Lovelady told the HSCA he was on six when the rifle was found. Don't cry!  Thumb1:

Quote
What was he trying to see so desperately he thought he could see it stood on a box and not by wandering around?

Not being law enforcement, he had to keep his distance. Not being stoopid, he realized that standing on a box would enable him to see the action better

Quote
It's as if you're just making it up (alert the media!)

Are you just making things up again?
In every photo of Lovelady that day he is wearing his distinctive shirt but suddenly he decides to leave it somewhere so he can show the officers up to the 6th floor.

Man takes shirt off in warehouse-----STOP THE PRESSES!
 :D

Quote
Maybe he was stood on the box looking for his shirt  :D :D

Your track record of fraudulent use of photographic evidence precedes you.
My first thought isn't, "Wow! Alan's got a point here"
It's "What is he up to now".

So here is a picture of Lovelady in profile taken from the Martin film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv5YfLvd/Screenshot-125.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Not even Alan can deny this clearly shows Lovelady's hairline (actually, I don't quite believe that)
Note how far back his hairline goes, it is receding back in line with his ears.
There is then a small piece of hair and then a distinctive bald patch.

~Yawn~

Learn how images work, Mr O'Meara (yannow---lighting/contrast/aspect ratio/etc.)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMsvRTJD/Lovelady-martin-bald-spot-no-yes.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 28, 2022, 01:58:28 AM

Learn how images work, Mr O'Meara (yannow---lighting/contrast/aspect ratio/etc.)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMsvRTJD/Lovelady-martin-bald-spot-no-yes.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 :D :D :D
You've got his bald patch to disappear!!
You should be some kind of hairstylist  :D
And it's still not the same hairline!!

You and your photographic shenanigans.
I think we should stick with the version shot in daylight rather than yours shot in the dead of night  ;D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 28, 2022, 03:54:59 PM
The  White Shirt Man (WSM) is probably Lovelad
1.The 6th floor = more heat gain rising to the upper floor and sun radiation penetrating roof reaching 6th floor.
2.Many more human bodies generating 300 BTU/hr/person= more heat gain
3.Sun streaming in where the white shirt man is standing = more hear gain
4. Anxiety and climbing staircase =faster heart rate = more heat gain

Therefore it’s not unreasonable to suggest that WSM is Lovelady who removed his flannel shirt due to the heat gain causing ambient temperature to be above the average 72-76 degree comfort zone.

And then all the other reasons Mr.Ford has adequately listed. 👍
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on February 28, 2022, 04:02:45 PM
PM does not (imo) appear to be
wearing glasses.  🙄

Nope no glasses.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 28, 2022, 05:41:09 PM
The  White Shirt Man (WSM) is probably Lovelad
1.The 6th floor = more heat gain rising to the upper floor and sun radiation penetrating roof reaching 6th floor.
2.Many more human bodies generating 300 BTU/hr/person= more heat gain
3.Sun streaming in where the white shirt man is standing = more hear gain
4. Anxiety and climbing staircase =faster heart rate = more heat gain

Therefore it’s not unreasonable to suggest that WSM is Lovelady who removed his flannel shirt due to the heat gain causing ambient temperature to be above the average 72-76 degree comfort zone.

And then all the other reasons Mr.Ford has adequately listed. 👍

Everyone else is wearing jackets and ties - they don't seem to be suffering.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 28, 2022, 06:51:26 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv5YfLvd/Screenshot-125.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDwk72vG/Screenshot-167.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/63sbCBdz/Screenshot-144.png)
 (https://postimages.org/)

I believe that the images above show the same person and believe it is Roscoe White.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 28, 2022, 08:30:14 PM
I believe that the images above show the same person and believe it is Roscoe White.

Then provide a profile picture of White confirming this.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2022, 09:06:02 PM
I believe that the images above show the same person and believe it is Roscoe White.

There is definitely SOME reason why a naturalistically impossible shadow was added down Mr Lovelady's side in Wiegman, but I doubt this is it

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QQ01hFw/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 28, 2022, 11:14:26 PM
Then provide a profile picture of White confirming this.
Not many photos of Roscoe White available online. It would require a serious research and contacting family.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Denis Pointing on March 01, 2022, 12:05:38 AM
Not many photos of Roscoe White available online. It would require a serious research and contacting family.

You need to try harder. Two minutes work: https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwhiteR.htm         https://www.tpaak.com/problems-in-black-and-white
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/5725622/roscoe-anthony-white
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on March 01, 2022, 12:22:02 AM
If PM was some random person who was taking some photos, then it’s unusual that no photo from this vantage point has been presented in the vast collection of photographic data in the archives.

It could something like “babushka lady” (allegeded to be Beverly Oliver) , and the camera and photos were confiscated.

However, no one has identified themselves as PM or claimed to have had a camera confiscated while taking photos from that position at the front steps of TSBD.

If the object was a camera , should not more of PMs face be obscured by the object if the camera is of the type with viewfinder in line with the lens? Such would require camera raised to obscure at least one eye.

And if the camera was of the type as Marina Oswald used for the BY photo requiring looking down into a viewfinder on the top then it would be unnecessary  to raise the camera at all from the mid level position.

The position of the hands would be how one would hold a camera. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 01, 2022, 02:01:57 AM
Hmm… a camera that Oswald was using at the front steps.. might explain camera confiscated and no photos

However, Surely Oswald would have taken the few moments he had before cameras or relay to his brother something about having had his camera confiscated while at the front steps?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 01, 2022, 02:33:35 AM
Response to Mt Omeara’s counterpoint that other persons on the 6th floor kept their suits and ties on despite the theoretical heat gain on the 6th floor:

They were government officials and cops. They were  required to maintain their uniform appearance regardless the heat factor.

Mr Lovelady , however, was a warehouse worker without such rigorous requirements for dress appearance.

( note : I think Mr Ford alluded to this point earlier )

If the skinny ex marine vet Oswald often worked in short sleeve T-shirt only, it’s not implausible that the chubbier Lovelady wearing a long sleeve  undershirt would remove his outer flannel shirt also to be more comfortable on the hotter upper 6th floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2022, 06:26:54 AM
The position of the hands would be how one would hold a camera.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QWG9Z6Q/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

The right hand is being brought up to the mouth. The left hand is holding something.

Food item + coke

Captain Fritz let it slip: "Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement"
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on March 01, 2022, 08:56:49 PM
You need to try harder. Two minutes work: https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwhiteR.htm         https://www.tpaak.com/problems-in-black-and-white
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/5725622/roscoe-anthony-white
Thank you Denis, I am familiar with these but still not more than 5-6 useful photos are available. As I see it, the left ear, hairline, shape of the head and body type, I believe that the person on the steps and in DPD is Roscoe White. Also, you have to consider statements of police officers (can not search names right now) who stated they took Roscoe with them from DPD and went to Ruth Paine house. So, even he was off duty, he was inside DPD and I believe many photos showing him in that plaid shirt inside DPD on 11/22/63 are not available.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2022, 09:29:16 PM
Thank you Denis, I am familiar with these but still not more than 5-6 useful photos are available. As I see it, the left ear, hairline, shape of the head and body type, I believe that the person on the steps and in DPD is Roscoe White. Also, you have to consider statements of police officers (can not search names right now) who stated they took Roscoe with them from DPD and went to Ruth Paine house. So, even he was off duty, he was inside DPD and I believe many photos showing him in that plaid shirt inside DPD on 11/22/63 are not available.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pX2hYh35/Lovelady-dpd.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/HsxWkQfz/Roscoe-White.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 04, 2022, 12:43:44 AM
Three seconds to find Lovelady
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0LVYV7w/JFKlovelady.jpg)

Ditto for White
(https://i.postimg.cc/59vZJVMx/Roscoe.jpg)

They are practically twins hahahahahahahahahahahaha

CTers are amateurs at everything in life
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 04, 2022, 11:44:52 PM

LOL

It’s almost as funny as the PM=Sarah Stanton theory :)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2022, 12:47:38 AM
LOL

It’s almost as funny as the PM=Sarah Stanton theory :)

Indeed!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on March 16, 2022, 09:52:23 AM

 What happened to Gilbride and his Darnell scan? No new updates from him at all.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 17, 2022, 12:51:59 AM
What happened to Gilbride and his Darnell scan? No new updates from him at all.

Fred

This frame from Darnell has been doing the rounds on the internet. I cannot vouch for its integrity, though it does go wider than previous frames I have seen (I've never seen the suited man in the background on the far right of frame before).

If this frame is indeed representative of what authenticated clearer Darnell frames would show, then (as Mr James Hackerott, who has inspected the version in the Sixth Floor Museum, has before argued) the cut of the upper garment in the chest/neck area of 'Prayer Man' does not seem favorable to the hypothesis that this is Mr Oswald-----------looks more like a woman...................

(Note: please ignore the red arrow, which was added by someone else to illustrate a different issue!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbGG8yK3/Darnell-new-frame.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MvGfK9z2)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on August 17, 2022, 02:29:33 AM
This frame from Darnell has been doing the rounds on the internet. I cannot vouch for its integrity, though it does go wider than previous frames I have seen (I've never seen the suited man in the background on the far right of frame before).

If this frame is indeed representative of what authenticated clearer Darnell frames would show, then (as Mr James Hackerott, who has inspected the version in the Sixth Floor Museum, has before argued) the cut of the upper garment in the chest/neck area of 'Prayer Man' does not seem favorable to the hypothesis that this is Mr Oswald-----------looks more like a woman...................

(Note: please ignore the red arrow, which was added by someone else to illustrate a different issue!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbGG8yK3/Darnell-new-frame.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MvGfK9z2)

 Thumb1:
That frame quality does look very similar to my pre-COVID19 2019 viewing recollections from the SFM’s Reading Room DVD. Thanks for posting it Mr. Ford! The entire Darnell film at that quality is quite a treat to view.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 17, 2022, 02:56:24 AM
That frame quality does look very similar to my pre-COVID19 2019 viewing recollections from the SFM’s Reading Room DVD. Thanks for posting it Mr. Ford! The entire Darnell film at that quality is quite a treat to view.

Mr Hackerott...  Would you work your magic on the two photos of the rifle in the thread "Was the carcano painted black ?" 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 17, 2022, 07:23:38 AM
What about all those people going UP the steps? They are looking TOWARDs PM so can it be still probable that those persons would not remember seeing Oswald.

No one has ever  come forward and has claimed to either be the PM person or ID this person.

Possible explanations:

1. Anxiety of the event caused observation paralysis .
2. Someone saw Oswald but knew ( or still knows) it was dangerous to rock the boat after Oswald was shot  dead.
3. PM was some non TSBD person who had just randomly arrived and died before the PM figure became more defined thru processing the negatives.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 15, 2022, 11:26:48 PM
This frame from Darnell has been doing the rounds on the internet. I cannot vouch for its integrity, though it does go wider than previous frames I have seen (I've never seen the suited man in the background on the far right of frame before).

If this frame is indeed representative of what authenticated clearer Darnell frames would show, then (as Mr James Hackerott, who has inspected the version in the Sixth Floor Museum, has before argued) the cut of the upper garment in the chest/neck area of 'Prayer Man' does not seem favorable to the hypothesis that this is Mr Oswald-----------looks more like a woman...................

(Note: please ignore the red arrow, which was added by someone else to illustrate a different issue!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbGG8yK3/Darnell-new-frame.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MvGfK9z2)

 Thumb1:

Friends, for clarification!

1. I came across the above Darnell frame in a post made by Mr Bart Kamp 1 June 2022. Here's the 'home' of the image: https://servimg.com/view/19524087/2490#

2. This is a DIFFERENT Darnell frame (i.e. from a different MOMENT) to the 'iconic' frame that was at the heart of the original Prayer Man claim. Therefore----------differences between the two frames can NOT be cited as evidence of alternation!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 15, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
Friends, for clarification!

1. I came across the above Darnell frame in a post made by Mr Bart Kamp 1 June 2022. Here's the 'home' of the image: https://servimg.com/view/19524087/2490#

2. This is a DIFFERENT Darnell frame (i.e. from a different MOMENT) to the 'iconic' frame that was at the heart of the original Prayer Man claim. Therefore----------differences between the two frames can NOT be cited as evidence of alternation!

 Thumb1:

For further clarification!

I now believe that

a) Prayer 'Man' is most likely NOT Mr Oswald but possibly one of the following:
-Miss Carolyn Arnold
-Mrs Pauline Sanders
-Mrs Jeraldean Reid

b) Mr Oswald is in fact

EITHER

Just behind the glass of the front door and about to step out

OR

HERE in Wiegman, in the place where the physically IMPOSSIBLE shadow falls down Mr Lovelady-----------

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FWcdJws/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

-------------and (in the selfsame spot) HERE in the version of the Altgens photograph which Mr Walter Cronkite showed to the American public the evening of 11/22/63:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnr4RQrm/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 15, 2022, 11:58:25 PM
'The Darnell frame Ford has posted has been altered!'

Really? Then explain how the frame I've posted goes WIDER than previously posted frames. The man the green arrow marks out is NOT in ANY previously seen versions! This therefore CANNOT be an altered version of ANY Darnell frame previously in the public sphere----------it contains new visual information!

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGxkCjLL/Darnell-new-frame-wider.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pypjpxft)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 16, 2022, 06:08:20 AM
If you  abandon the Oswald = PM theory, then you will have to return to an earlier theory that there was SOMEONE who resembled Oswald on the front steps whom the conspirators at FIRST thought was Oswald, but whom later found out the person was not Oswald.

Otherwise, if the Lovelady shadow anomaly is due to the necessity to blot out Oswald then would the conspirators have let Lovelady and Frazier live knowing these 2witnesses no doubt had to have seen Oswald? Even if they remained silent, could the conspirators risk them breaking their silence? 

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2022, 12:04:39 AM
If you  abandon the Oswald = PM theory, then you will have to return to an earlier theory that there was SOMEONE who resembled Oswald on the front steps whom the conspirators at FIRST thought was Oswald, but whom later found out the person was not Oswald.

Otherwise, if the Lovelady shadow anomaly is due to the necessity to blot out Oswald then would the conspirators have let Lovelady and Frazier live knowing these 2witnesses no doubt had to have seen Oswald? Even if they remained silent, could the conspirators risk them breaking their silence?

Everything--------on my scenario----------flowed from the simple fact that, within a very few hours of the assassination, the 'investigating' authorities knew that Mr. Oswald was up in the building's front entrance for the assassination.

They had to act fast, and they did, cobbling together a story they HOPED but could not be CERTAIN would hold over time.

They COULD have put 'I was on the sixth floor' in Mr. Oswald's mouth in the interrogation reports, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have had Officer Baker/Mr. Truly encounter Mr. Oswald on, say, the fifth floor with a rifle in his hand, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have gotten a controlled witness (or three!) to securely ID Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have faked up a photo of Mr. Oswald firing from the sixth-floor window, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have faked the results of the paraffin test on Mr. Oswald's cheek, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

A story had to be created that catered to TWO different scenarios:
a) Mr. Oswald as sixth-floor shooter
b) Mr. Oswald as in the doorway

Enter: second-floor lunchroom story--------------a story designed to be physically possible on both scenarios.

As for killing Mr. Frazier and/or Mr. Lovelady, that would have been crazy extreme. Much better to satisfy themselves, as they evidently did, that neither of those two (or indeed Mr. Shelley) would talk (after having some pressure applied).

Believe you me, Mr. Mason, that ridiculous shadow down Mr. Lovelady, coupled with what we now know to have been Mr. Oswald's own (suppressed) claim that he "went outside to watch P. Parade", constitutes the true Rosetta Stone of this phase of the case.

The Prayer Man folks got SO much right, only they got the exact location of Mr. Oswald in that doorway wrong. But we certainly wouldn't be where we are now without their fine work......................

IMHO!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2022, 12:21:45 AM
For further clarification!

I now believe that

a) Prayer 'Man' is most likely NOT Mr Oswald but possibly one of the following:
-Miss Carolyn Arnold
-Mrs Pauline Sanders
-Mrs Jeraldean Reid


Whoever Prayer 'Man' is, btw, they are NOT Ms. Sarah Stanton. That piece of silliness was ruled out many many moons ago when a contemporaneous photograph of Ms. Stanton was published to researchers!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2022, 03:15:01 PM
Well!

As regular tuners-in to this station will know, I believe that there may be a simple but bombshell explanation for Mr Billy Lovelady and Mr Bill Shelley's having lied and lied and lied about their post-assassination movements:

The man who accompanied Mr. Shelley down to the edge of the railroad yard and stood around with him for several minutes watching the excitement, before reentering the Depository via the west door, was not Mr. Lovelady but Mr. Oswald.

On this scenario, Mr. Oswald has------like Mr. Shelley------already left the entrance by the time of Darnell.

He MAY POSSIBLY even be the fellow passing out Mr. Danny Arce here in the Couch film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/c42w943S/Shelley-and-Lovelady-in-Couch.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Skeptic: 'Nah, too bulky for Oswald!'

Moi: 'Well, we don't KNOW what upper garment Mr. Oswald was wearing at the time of the assassination. It may have been just the white tshirt. It may have been his reddish-brown shirt (NOT the arrest shirt!) over the white tshirt. Or! It may have been the gray FLANNEL ('wool-looking') JACKET which Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier recalled seeing him wear to work that morning.'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2022, 03:23:44 PM
Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'But Oswald told a reporter he was inside the building at the time of the shooting!'

Moi: 'Nope, he said he was in the building at the time.'

Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'Okay, but that rules out his being in the doorway!'

Moi: 'Nope----------the enclosed front part of the building is still part of the building. Mr. Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade, but he did not leave the actual building and go out onto the street.'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2022, 03:29:05 PM
Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'Ha ha! There is zero evidence of Oswald in the doorway!'

Moi: 'There is zero evidence that the shadow down Mr. Billy Lovelady in Wiegman has a natural explanation.'

Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'So what? There is still zero evidence of Oswald in the doorway!'

Moi: 'The fact that a fake shadow has been added down Mr. Lovelady is evidence that something in that doorway is being hidden.'

Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'Prove it's Oswald!'

Moi: 'Offer us an alternative explanation for why the 'investigating' authorities would have felt the need to put a fake shadow down Mr. Lovelady.'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2022, 11:00:37 PM
Everything--------on my scenario----------flowed from the simple fact that, within a very few hours of the assassination, the 'investigating' authorities knew that Mr. Oswald was up in the building's front entrance for the assassination.

They had to act fast, and they did, cobbling together a story they HOPED but could not be CERTAIN would hold over time.

They COULD have put 'I was on the sixth floor' in Mr. Oswald's mouth in the interrogation reports, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have had Officer Baker/Mr. Truly encounter Mr. Oswald on, say, the fifth floor with a rifle in his hand, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have gotten a controlled witness (or three!) to securely ID Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have faked up a photo of Mr. Oswald firing from the sixth-floor window, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have faked the results of the paraffin test on Mr. Oswald's cheek, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

A story had to be created that catered to TWO different scenarios:
a) Mr. Oswald as sixth-floor shooter
b) Mr. Oswald as in the doorway

Enter: second-floor lunchroom story--------------a story designed to be physically possible on both scenarios.

Does anyone believe that Mr. Oswald, in interrogation, was not asked where EXACTLY he was at the time of the assassination?

It's a given that he was, right?

Well.......... This went one of four ways:

a) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location (e.g. doorway; domino room; second-floor lunchroom; upper floor)

b) Mr. Oswald refused to give a specific location

c) Mr. Oswald said he couldn't give a specific location because he did not hear any shots and so did not know for sure when the shooting took place

d) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location, but then changed his story under further interrogation.

RE. a) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us SPECIFICALLY where Mr. Oswald said he was

RE. b) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald REFUSED to give a specific location

RE. c) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald said he COULD NOT speak to his specific location

RE. d) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald CHANGED his claimed location under further interrogation.

It's very simple: Mr. Oswald claimed he was out on the front steps to watch the P. Parade. Because this claim was known to be true, it COULD NOT be reflected in the official interrogation reports. However, precisely BECAUSE it was known to be true, no OTHER claimed specific location could be put in Mr. Oswald's mouth.

Hence the VERY WEIRD silence of the official interrogation reports on Mr. Oswald's answer to the single most important question put to him in all the interrogations: Where were you when the shooting happened?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 21, 2022, 12:07:26 AM
Friends, if (as I now believe, though subject to publication of further images from Darnell) the PM=LHO has gone the way of the old AltgensDoorwayman=LHO claim, then we ought to reflect on the massive importance of both claims in the history of JFK research:

They motivated intense scrutiny of the Depository doorway and its occupants.

Without the DoorwayMan theory, Mr. Billy Lovelady and his lies would not have become such a focus of researchers' attention over the years.

And without the PrayerMan theory, this attention on Mr. Lovelady (and on Mr. Shelley, as on others) would not have been intensified to the point where new insights were achieved, including the unassailable fact that the shadow down Mr. Lovelady's right side in Wiegman is naturalistically impossible. Furthermore, without the PrayerMan theory, Mr. Bart Kamp would not have been motivated to achieve what is perhaps the single most important archival find in the history of the case:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKMTzxJ4/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

POTENTIALLY most importantly of all (IMO!), the PrayerMan theory MAY have led to Mr. Oswald's true location in that doorway being finally pinpointed:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FWcdJws/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/Hnr4RQrm/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 21, 2022, 01:53:49 AM
One thing does kinda puzzle me..............

When Prayer Man was first raised (back in 2013) Mr. Gary Mack gave as his view that Prayer Man was probably Mr. Billy Lovelady, then probably Mr. Bill Shelley (i.e. anybody but Mr. Oswald). Silly suggestions both, but that by the bye. When exactly did the Sixth Floor Museum first acquire the first-gen copy of the Darnell film, the one that visitors have been able to view in recent times? Reason I ask is, IF Mr. Mack had access to this copy back in 2013, then he would presumably have taken a look-------being by that time an Oswald-Did-It true believer, and, in his capacity as a well-paid employee of the Sixth Floor Museum, notoriously anxious to quash any notion that Mr. Oswald was anywhere other than at the SN window at the time of the shooting. After all, he DID take the trouble of contacting Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier to ask him about it (at the behest of another Oswald-Did-It true believer, Mr. John Mytton). And IF Mr. Mack did take a look and saw what we have now seen of the neck cut of the figure's upper garment, he could have (and, knowing him, would have been only too delighted to have) told everyone about it and saved us all a lot of trouble. Instead he seems to have accepted that Prayer Man was indeed a male.................

 :-\
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 21, 2022, 03:21:51 AM
PM is not likely Pauline Sanders because Sanders located herself at the EAST side of the front landing and at one point Sarah Stanton was beside her. Stanton we think then moved away from Sanders down a few steps and just east of Billy Lovelady on the east side of the center handrail. Stanton is supposedly the white fluffy shirt person with both hands raised shielding her face from sun.

PM is not likely Mrs Reid because Reid said she was standing NEXT to Mr.Campbell at the time the shots were fired.

Mr. Campbell at the time of shots fired was standing out on the sidewalk near the curb of Elm st. He can be seen in the Weigman film on the curb and beside him is a woman who appears to be older woman

Carolyn Arnold was supposedly nearby Mrs Reid out on the sidewalk in front of TSBD from where Carolyn supposedly looked back towards the TSBD entrance steps approx 12:25 and saw Oswald  standing in the front  lobby ( thru the glass partition wall)

Now if Arnold were PM then was Carolyn Arnold only 5’3” tall?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 21, 2022, 03:51:31 AM
PM is not likely Pauline Sanders because Sanders located herself at the EAST side of the front landing and at one point Sarah Stanton was beside her. Stanton we think then moved away from Sanders down a few steps and just east of Billy Lovelady on the east side of the center handrail. Stanton is supposedly the white fluffy shirt person with both hands raised shielding her face from sun.

PM is not likely Mrs Reid because Reid said she was standing NEXT to Mr.Campbell at the time the shots were fired.

Mr. Campbell at the time of shots fired was standing out on the sidewalk near the curb of Elm st. He can be seen in the Weigman film on the curb and beside him is a woman who appears to be older woman

Carolyn Arnold was supposedly nearby Mrs Reid out on the sidewalk in front of TSBD from where Carolyn supposedly looked back towards the TSBD entrance steps approx 12:25 and saw Oswald  standing in the front  lobby ( thru the glass partition wall)

Now if Arnold were PM then was Carolyn Arnold only 5’3” tall?

Well, if PrayerMan is a woman, then she must be somebody. Which means that somebody either misrecalled or misrepresented their position at the time of the actual shooting..........

Mrs. Sanders may possibly have moved over to the west wall at the last minute to get a better view of the motorcade on Houston. The 1960s photo we have of her does not (unlike that of Mrs. Stanton!) rule her out as PrayerMan IMO. Though she would be a surprising solution!

Yes, Mrs. Reid SAID she was out with Messrs. Campbell & Truly. But she may be lying in order to take herself out of the doorway. We have very good reason to believe she lied about other things. And the photo we have of her is not incompatible with her being PrayerMan IMO. In fact, I think it's the closest visual match we've seen to the new version of the Darnell frame I posted recently. Mrs. Reid may have been on the steps and heard the exchange between Mrs. Sanders and Mr. Campbell shortly after the shooting---------------and plagiarized it to lend credence to her story that she was out on the street with Mr. Campbell. It's even possible her story about Mr. Oswald coming through a door and her telling him the Pres. had been shot was originally about a different door to the one going into the second-floor office area---------------it may have been the FRONT DOOR of the building. (Ms. Karen Westbrook's wording on her recollection of what Mrs. Reid told colleagues is interesting here.) What I do NOT believe is the massive fluke that, of all the employees of the Depository to report an independent sighting of Mr. Oswald in the building after the shooting, it just so happened to be three people who were standing together for the P. Parade (Mr. Truly, Mr. Campbell, Mrs. Reid). That mother of all flukes screams pressure having been put on Mrs. Reid to help out her superiors. Incidentally, Mrs. Reid is described by a colleague as 'little', which may help with the height issue you raise.

The man identified as Mr. Campbell in Wiegman looks nothing like him.

Ms. Arnold is placed in the doorway by Mr. Shelley in an FBI interview. When she was asked about her reported sighting of Mr. Oswald behind the doorway years later, she got awful defensive. She may have left the group out by the street at the last minute (being heavily pregnant and wanting to get out of the sunlight) and, on her way into the entranceway, noticed Mr. Oswald just behind the glass door (just before he came outside). The FBI might have screwed with the timeframe on what she told them (as well of course as suppressing her earlier sighting of Mr. Oswald in the lunchroom several minutes before the motorcade).

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 02:10:23 PM
Does anyone believe that Mr. Oswald, in interrogation, was not asked where EXACTLY he was at the time of the assassination?

It's a given that he was, right?

Well.......... This went one of four ways:

a) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location (e.g. doorway; domino room; second-floor lunchroom; upper floor)

b) Mr. Oswald refused to give a specific location

c) Mr. Oswald said he couldn't give a specific location because he did not hear any shots and so did not know for sure when the shooting took place

d) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location, but then changed his story under further interrogation.

RE. a) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us SPECIFICALLY where Mr. Oswald said he was

RE. b) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald REFUSED to give a specific location

RE. c) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald said he COULD NOT speak to his specific location

RE. d) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald CHANGED his claimed location under further interrogation.

It's very simple: Mr. Oswald claimed he was out on the front steps to watch the P. Parade. Because this claim was known to be true, it COULD NOT be reflected in the official interrogation reports. However, precisely BECAUSE it was known to be true, no OTHER claimed specific location could be put in Mr. Oswald's mouth.

Hence the VERY WEIRD silence of the official interrogation reports on Mr. Oswald's answer to the single most important question put to him in all the interrogations: Where were you when the shooting happened?

 Thumb1:

From page 22 of Hosty's  Assignment: Oswald.

Captain Fritz:  You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?

Lee Oswald:....Yes...

Captain Fritz;  Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?

Lee Oswald:.... Yes...

Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?

Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.   

From Cap't Fritz's notes ( which he swore he never took) ....

The following is not verbatim.....

(Oswald ) Says...  Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names.  Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.

The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....

Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 21, 2022, 03:42:52 PM
From page 22 of Hosty's  Assignment: Oswald.

Captain Fritz:  You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?

Lee Oswald:....Yes...

Captain Fritz;  Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?

Lee Oswald:.... Yes...

Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?

Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.   

Agent Hosty is giving this misleading account years later, when the risk of Mr. Oswald's presence on the steps coming to light has receded. Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for us, his own contemporaneous draft interrogation report came to light in 2019, and it says something completely different
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 22, 2022, 11:44:43 PM
The Darnell frame I posted a couple of pages back in this thread shows PrayerMan with an upper-garment neck cut that seems incompatible with this being Mr. Oswald. It seems Mr. Kamp posted it originally without quite realizing its significance.

Anyone wishing to argue that we can't read too much into just one frame is right, but only up to a point. For Mr. Hackerott has inspected multiple frames from the first-gen copy in the Sixth Floor Museum and-------long before our 'new' frame first went online-------noticed the same feature/problem. Those who wish to continue to press the PM=LHO claim need to go beyond the 'It's only one frame' argument.

They also need to go beyond the (obvious) point that PrayerMan is not Mrs. Sarah Stanton. We know that, and have done for a very long time. What's new here is that Mr. Oswald now no longer seems a viable candidate either. PrayerMan's not being Mrs. Stanton does not make PrayerMan Mr. Oswald, especially when this 'new' Darnell frame makes it appear that PrayerMan is in fact a woman!

Whoever PrayerMan is, the answer is going to be surprising (in a way that PM=LHO wouldn't have been, given that Mr. Oswald was an employee who claimed to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade and who, unlike others, did not give a location in the doorway other than the Prayer Man location).

---

Where do the PrayerMan people want to take this? Do they want to argue that the Sixth Floor Museum copy was altered between 2013 and whenever it was made viewable to visitors?

Or do they want to put upper clothing on Mr. Oswald that would be compatible with what we see in the 'new' Darnell frame? Because a white tshirt or Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt with white tshirt underneath just ain't going to (so to speak) cut it.

---

I honestly fear those PrayerMan advocates who are pretending the problem posed by this 'new' Darnell frame doesn't exist are making a bad mistake. They are doing what they believe the AltgensDoorwayman advocates did for so long: doubling down dogmatically on only ONE possible solution to the question of Mr. Oswald's doorway location, and thereby missing a more viable solution to that question. They need to stop acting like the Hosty draft report has Mr. Oswald stating he "went outside to watch the P. Parade and stood over by the west wall of the front entrance".

I was a strong supporter of the PM=LHO claim, but not any more. The evidence now points away from it.

However! The evidence continues to support the claim (Mr. Oswald's own) that he went outside to watch the P. Parade.

---

Furthermore! Those who either pretend, absurdly, that the shadow down Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman is due to a turn in his body or (just as absurdly) due to natural shadow---------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/25gCpBmk/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

-----------------------or concede that they cannot explain this shadow but refuse to accept that this anomaly may be highly significant---------------are in a sad state of denial IMHO................

---

I ask the PrayerMan advocates two things:

1. Can you explain the shadow down Mr. Lovelady in the Wiegman frame above?

2. If not, then could you please ask yourself a simple question: If Prayer Man is LHO, then why on earth would anyone have seen a need to put a shadow down Lovelady in Wiegman?

Wake up!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 23, 2022, 08:22:26 AM
You can determine gender from an alleged “neck cut”?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 23, 2022, 02:06:45 PM
You can determine gender from an alleged “neck cut”?

Not many men wearing this kind of deal in Dallas '63:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfcWv7TQ/low-neck-tshirt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And, unless something in PrayerMan's hand(s) is creating the illusion of a scoop neck, it's hard seeing this as a sleeves-rolled-up men's shirt with the first button or two (or three) open........

(https://i.postimg.cc/FspwqkyR/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2022, 02:47:52 PM
Agent Hosty is giving this misleading account years later, when the risk of Mr. Oswald's presence on the steps coming to light has receded. Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for us, his own contemporaneous draft interrogation report came to light in 2019, and it says something completely different

Kelly says he was at the 10:30 interview on Saturday, Nov. 23rd. Those he states present were Bookhout, Fritz, US Marshall Robert Nash, Secret Service agents Grant and Sorrels, and Boyd and Hall.

    "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him.
     He described one of them as ‘Junior’, a colored boy, and the other was
     a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread,
     fruit, and apples, and was the only package he had with him when he
     went to work."

Bookhout, at the same interview, wrote:

    "OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in
     the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but
     recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room
     during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was
     called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he
     could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."

The part of Capt. Fritz's report dealing with the Saturday morning interview stated Oswald:

    "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him.
     One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short
     man whose name he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich
     and some fruit and that was the only package he had brought with him
     to work and denied he had brought the long package described by
     Mr. Frazier and his sister."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 23, 2022, 03:16:13 PM
Kelly says he was at the 10:30 interview on Saturday, Nov. 23rd. Those he states present were Bookhout, Fritz, US Marshall Robert Nash, Secret Service agents Grant and Sorrels, and Boyd and Hall.

    "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him.
     He described one of them as ‘Junior’, a colored boy, and the other was
     a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread,
     fruit, and apples, and was the only package he had with him when he
     went to work."

Bookhout, at the same interview, wrote:

    "OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in
     the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but
     recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room
     during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was
     called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he
     could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."

The part of Capt. Fritz's report dealing with the Saturday morning interview stated Oswald:

    "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him.
     One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short
     man whose name he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich
     and some fruit and that was the only package he had brought with him
     to work and denied he had brought the long package described by
     Mr. Frazier and his sister."

Exactly---------------putting these reports side by side lets us see what happened: Insp. Kelley & Captain Fritz embellished (or being MOST charitable, misconstrued) Mr. Oswald's recollection of eating alone but seeing Messrs. Norman & Jarman walking through into a claim of actually eating lunch with them.

And, of course, none of them have Mr. Oswald putting himself in the domino room at the time of the P. Parade

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2022, 11:09:28 PM
Ms. Arnold is placed in the doorway by Mr. Shelley in an FBI interview. When she was asked about her reported sighting of Mr. Oswald behind the doorway years later, she got awful defensive. She may have left the group out by the street at the last minute (being heavily pregnant and wanting to get out of the sunlight) and, on her way into the entranceway, noticed Mr. Oswald just behind the glass door (just before he came outside). The FBI might have screwed with the timeframe on what she told them (as well of course as suppressing her earlier sighting of Mr. Oswald in the lunchroom several minutes before the motorcade).

From the Shelley FBI report 3/18/64:

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbMBfz2s/Shelley-sees-Arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 26, 2022, 10:31:56 PM
Kelly says he was at the 10:30 interview on Saturday, Nov. 23rd. Those he states present were Bookhout, Fritz, US Marshall Robert Nash, Secret Service agents Grant and Sorrels, and Boyd and Hall.

    "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him.
     He described one of them as ‘Junior’, a colored boy, and the other was
     a little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, bread,
     fruit, and apples, and was the only package he had with him when he
     went to work."

Bookhout, at the same interview, wrote:

    "OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in
     the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but
     recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room
     during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was
     called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he
     could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."

The part of Capt. Fritz's report dealing with the Saturday morning interview stated Oswald:

    "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him.
     One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short
     man whose name he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich
     and some fruit and that was the only package he had brought with him
     to work and denied he had brought the long package described by
     Mr. Frazier and his sister."

On Saturday 11/23 /63  in his report DL 89-43 FBI agent James Bookhout, said that .....

 "OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in
     the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but
     recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room
     during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was
     called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he
     could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."


At this 10:30 Saturday morning interrogation Thomas Kelley was present.....And the primary reason that Fritz wanted to interrogate Lee Oswald is because he had learned that Lee had got off the bus and caught a taxi to his rooming house in Oak Cliff....and he wanted to hear what Lee had to say about that...  Lee said that yes, it was true that he had got off the bus and took a taxi to is room at 1026 N. Beckley .He told Fritz that he paid a fare of 85 cents .....   THAT taxi ride  was the primary reason for the 10:30 session....

Sooooo... Both Bookhou,t and Kelley, reported that Lee told Fritz that his fare was 85 cents...  William Whaley testified that the man he transported to Oakcliff BEFORE the assassination ( He said the man entered his  taxi at 12:30 ) paid a fare of 95 cents.   

Lee Oswald was NOT Whaley's passenger.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 27, 2022, 07:35:12 PM
Any possibility that this white ring effect in this newer Darnell  version of PM is due to the white  T-shirt showing thru a brown shirt not fully buttoned at the neck?

I  asked the ? Why the conspirators didn’t blacken out PM and answered my own ? by suggesting that at the time the image was so obscured already they didn’t think it was any possible proof of Oswald out front.

Since Mr. Ford as pointed out , the shadow anomaly on Lovelady has not yet been adequately explained (nor replicated via experiment) and so as CTs :) we of course suspect purposeful obfuscation of this area for some reason.

I thought we had arrived at the CT reason for  the anomalous shadow on Lovelady  due to a necessity to hide the right ARM of Lovelady because his sleeves were not rolled up.

This was supposedly  to cover for the early quick alteration of the Altgens photo 6 (Cronkite version) trying to make it appear that a raised forearm belonged to Lewis, the black man at the bottom of the steps NW side. The shirt sleeve appears rolled up.

However after this quick alteration, they realized they made a glaring mistake , because Lewis sleeve was NOT rolled up AND there was still the anomaly of a horizontal dark object ( looking much like a bottle )

So the 2nd correction to Altgens photo was to make the raised arm and the dark horizontal slash (bottle) disappear entirely by graphing in texture of Loveladys shirt sleeve so as to make it appear as Loveladys right arm .

But the conspirators made one more error which is that Loveladys arm has no hand at the end of the shirt sleeve AND the shirt sleeve appears to be extend IN FRONT of part of Lewis face which is another anomaly because Lovelady was BEHIND Lewis several desk steps back.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 28, 2022, 01:48:22 AM
Any possibility that this white ring effect in this newer Darnell  version of PM is due to the white  T-shirt showing thru a brown shirt not fully buttoned at the neck?

I  asked the ? Why the conspirators didn’t blacken out PM and answered my own ? by suggesting that at the time the image was so obscured already they didn’t think it was any possible proof of Oswald out front.

Since Mr. Ford as pointed out , the shadow anomaly on Lovelady has not yet been adequately explained (nor replicated via experiment) and so as CTs :) we of course suspect purposeful obfuscation of this area for some reason.

I thought we had arrived at the CT reason for  the anomalous shadow on Lovelady  due to a necessity to hide the right ARM of Lovelady because his sleeves were not rolled up.

This was supposedly  to cover for the early quick alteration of the Altgens photo 6 (Cronkite version) trying to make it appear that a raised forearm belonged to Lewis, the black man at the bottom of the steps NW side. The shirt sleeve appears rolled up.

However after this quick alteration, they realized they made a glaring mistake , because Lewis sleeve was NOT rolled up AND there was still the anomaly of a horizontal dark object ( looking much like a bottle )

So the 2nd correction to Altgens photo was to make the raised arm and the dark horizontal slash (bottle) disappear entirely by graphing in texture of Loveladys shirt sleeve so as to make it appear as Loveladys right arm .

But the conspirators made one more error which is that Loveladys arm has no hand at the end of the shirt sleeve AND the shirt sleeve appears to be extend IN FRONT of part of Lewis face which is another anomaly because Lovelady was BEHIND Lewis several desk steps back.

Thank you for these thoughtful remarks, Mr Mason!  Thumb1:

--

Re. PrayerMan in Darnell:

The scoop line of the upper garment just doesn't, in my opinion, look like it could realistically be yielded by a man's shirt open a couple of buttons. Too round.

--

Re. Altgens/Wiegman:

When I first noticed this in the version of Altgens shown by Mr. Cronkite the evening of the assassination----------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnr4RQrm/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

-----------I tried to relate it to the PrayerMan issue. I was troubled by the fact that, for Altgens to be showing PrayerMan/LHO, then PrayerMan/LHO must have MOVED position in a VERY short time (i.e. the time difference between Altgens & Wiegman). Messy!

But what if there is NO RELATION between PrayerMan-in-Wiegman and what the Cronkite version of Altgens shows? What if the figure (apparently) holding the bottle in Altgens is simply a DIFFERENT PERSON to PrayerMan? It would certainly relieve us of the task of positing a SUDDEN and QUICK movement back up the steps of the figure in Altgens.

What seals the deal for me is that the figure we see in the Cronkite Altgens is in THE SELFSAME SPOT covered by the impossible shadow IN WIEGMAN:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnr4RQrm/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)(https://i.postimg.cc/9FWcdJws/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

No coincidence IMO!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 28, 2022, 03:56:06 AM
Mr.Ford, if your new proposition is correct that the Cronkite version of Altgens no.6 photo is a person with  arm raised holding a bottle in hand who is standing at the exact location where the shadow anomaly on Lovelady occurs in the Weigman film

Then that person either must be Oswald  or that  person resembled Oswald so much that the conspirators were compelled to take the risk they did to alter both Altgens photo and Weigman film.

How BW Frazier etc on those steps  could have missed seeing Oswald standing IN FRONT of them is the problem

And if the explanation is that  people were compelled by  sone form of psychological coercion to remain silent, then that’ is extremely troublesome to consider THEY MIGHT STILL be using this form of coercion today to keep people silent about other horrendous dees done by the global deep state.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 29, 2022, 01:42:03 AM
Once Mr Lovelady's body is out of the frame, those applying the shadow get sloppy:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9zpts7K/Wiegman-disturbance.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Some disturbance is happening here

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 30, 2022, 01:50:42 AM
The car aerial disappears only when it's 'in front of' the Magic Lovelady Shadow. Oops!

(https://i.postimg.cc/TY5cbNrs/aerial-wiegman-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 30, 2022, 02:09:29 AM
From the Shelley FBI report 3/18/64:

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbMBfz2s/Shelley-sees-Arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Mrs Pauline Sanders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3Cv4bLz/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

If PrayerMan is her, then that's surprising but not in itself v. interesting in terms of the case.

If PrayerMan is not her, then whoever PrayerMan is would be both surprising AND v. interesting in terms of the case!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 02, 2022, 03:39:22 AM
If PM is a woman then she must be either 5’2” standing on the landing level or she is 5’9” standing one step down from the entrance landing level.

I’m not yet convinced that the “enhanced” version of Darnell discounts the possibility that earlier images of PM  appears to indicate a V shaped white space indicative of a t-shirt exposed by a loosely worn brown shirt such as Oswald wore.

I also notice clear photos of Oswald when he was in handcuffs that indicate the “roundness”of his white T-shirt seen thru his open brown shirt.

I would like to see some experiment with a camera like Darnell’s, to record a male 5’9” height and 135 lb weight with an open brown shirt and white t-shirt like Oswald’s standing at PM location one step down from the landing.

Then repeat the experiment with a woman 5’9” /135 lb wearing some similar dress to the TSBD office women employees

High res Scan both of these experimental replication films frames to see if one or the other  (or both) produce a similar white ring effect to recent newer Darnell scans presented that have cast doubt on the PM=Oswald theory.

In the mean time, since there does not appear to be a suitable female TSBD employee known to be only 5’2” height , then the probability is that if PM is a woman she must be 5’9” standing one step down from the top landing level.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 02, 2022, 01:54:40 PM
I’m not yet convinced that the “enhanced” version of Darnell discounts the possibility that earlier images of PM  appears to indicate a V shaped white space indicative of a t-shirt exposed by a loosely worn brown shirt such as Oswald wore.

I also notice clear photos of Oswald when he was in handcuffs that indicate the “roundness”of his white T-shirt seen thru his open brown shirt.

The chief problem is not the white area but the shape of the cutoff area:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xYF66J8/Darnell-new-frame-cropped-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

V. hard to see a man's open shirt giving this line.

Then again, here's a tracing of a different frame made by Mr Hackerott at the Sixth Floor Museum:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4sYGzJ7/Hackerott-tracing-PM.png) (https://postimages.org/)

More V-shaped......

Unless the V-shape-VS-scoop-line inconsistency comes down to a slight change in the height of the hand(s)-----------i.e. PM is holding something that gives the illusion in some frames of a scoop line?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on October 03, 2022, 07:52:38 PM
Mrs Pauline Sanders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3Cv4bLz/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

If PrayerMan is her, then that's surprising but not in itself v. interesting in terms of the case.

If PrayerMan is not her, then whoever PrayerMan is would be both surprising AND v. interesting in terms of the case!

 Thumb1:

I believe that Prayer person was Pauline Sanders. Back in 2017 I have found picture of her with her nephew on Facebook with the same right arm position but I have lost that picture in my old laptop. Trying to find it on Facebook again but no success. I have lost the track of her nephew name and where exactly I have made a connection (Find a grave or Ancestry) but I am more than sure it was Pauline Sanders holding a white coffee cup.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 03, 2022, 10:12:28 PM
I believe that Prayer person was Pauline Sanders. Back in 2017 I have found picture of her with her nephew on Facebook with the same right arm position but I have lost that picture in my old laptop. Trying to find it on Facebook again but no success. I have lost the track of her nephew name and where exactly I have made a connection (Find a grave or Ancestry) but I am more than sure it was Pauline Sanders holding a white coffee cup.

If she's PM, then she stood on the east side of the entranceway when she first came out (ca. 12:20) but moved west (probably to get a better view of the motorcade as it came on to Houston etc)

She would certainly be the most straightforward female candidate!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 03, 2022, 11:40:29 PM
If she's PM, then she stood on the east side of the entranceway when she first came out (ca. 12:20) but moved west (probably to get a better view of the motorcade as it came on to Houston etc)

She would certainly be the most straightforward female candidate!  Thumb1:

I haven't been taking part in this discussion. Instead I have been reading parts of it once in a while, but now I have a question.
Perhaps this has already been discussed earlier (if so, I apologize bringing it up again), but I have a picture in my files of an empty bottle of some soft drink standing on the ledge next to the stairs with police officers standing around it. I could of course be mistaken, but the image refered to as Prayer man seems to holding an object with two hands that could be a bottle.

I don't think a woman, back in those days, would be drinking from a bottle but a warehouse worker might. Is there anything known about this bottle and how it possibly relates to Prayer man?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2022, 12:18:22 AM
I haven't been taking part in this discussion. Instead I have been reading parts of it once in a while, but now I have a question.
Perhaps this has already been discussed earlier (if so, I apologize bringing it up again), but I have a picture in my files of an empty bottle of some soft drink standing on the ledge next to the stairs with police officers standing around it. I could of course be mistaken, but the image refered to as Prayer man seems to holding an object with two hands that could be a bottle.

I don't think a woman, back in those days, would be drinking from a bottle but a warehouse worker might. Is there anything known about this bottle and how it possibly relates to Prayer man?

Hello Mr Weidmann!

The bottle in question has the shape of a Dr Pepper rather than Coca Cola-----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDHLJ71f/bottle-steps-large.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I agree with you that a lady employee Dallas '63 would be unlikely to take a soda outside and drink it. (Similiar with coffee IMO)

The Dr Pepper bottle may have been left there by Insp. Saywer-----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/SN0nj9yf/Sawyer-coke.png) (https://postimages.org/)

I'm wondering if the bright object in PM's hand might not be Ms Sanders' glasses, which she (if she was long-sighted) might have taken off to see the P. Parade better? One of the lenses could be catching the sun..............

 (https://i.postimg.cc/C5CSRzNc/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)(https://i.postimg.cc/9fvh1Ggx/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This kinda deal:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HsJt1X60/woman-glasses.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(Wiegman might be showing her raising her glasses-holding hand to her mouth in startlement at the sound of gunfire............)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on October 04, 2022, 10:28:34 AM
I haven't been taking part in this discussion. Instead I have been reading parts of it once in a while, but now I have a question.
Perhaps this has already been discussed earlier (if so, I apologize bringing it up again), but I have a picture in my files of an empty bottle of some soft drink standing on the ledge next to the stairs with police officers standing around it. I could of course be mistaken, but the image refered to as Prayer man seems to holding an object with two hands that could be a bottle.

I don't think a woman, back in those days, would be drinking from a bottle but a warehouse worker might. Is there anything known about this bottle and how it possibly relates to Prayer man?
I believe Prayer Person was holding a coffee cup that was available on the ground floor of TSBD as seen on this photo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HW3VNk7Q/Af-U01-BW-zpsimzflh0z.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on October 04, 2022, 10:31:59 AM
This GIF is great to see it was a coffee cup most probably...

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5CSRzNc/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2022, 03:11:35 PM
This GIF is great to see it was a coffee cup most probably...

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5CSRzNc/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Whatever is in PM's hand here doesn't IMO look tall enough for one of those cups............

(https://i.postimg.cc/9fvh1Ggx/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

Looks closer to the dimensions of one of these:

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2Jzx8VP/teacup.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

V. unlikely a lady employee would bring one of those out front
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2022, 03:13:22 PM
Look at the glare coming off those lenses..............

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3Cv4bLz/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 04, 2022, 09:32:26 PM
If PM is a woman  5’2” and took off her glasses and she took longer than 15 minutes to drink a small mug of coffee (or small styrofoam cup) which she brought with her approx 12:15 when she was with Sarah Stanton, and she is NOT the small short woman at the east side of steps seen in the same frames at the same time that PM is in the west corner…

Then itgere a possibility PM could be Pauline Sanders who just forgot she she moved from where she stated she was which was the east side of the landing.

And of course she was wearing a dark  dress that day also…

With her hair in a different style than the photo of her..

Um … IDK :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2022, 09:45:25 PM
If PM is a woman  5’2” and took off her glasses and she took longer than 15 minutes to drink a small mug of coffee (or small styrofoam cup)

Not 'and' but 'OR'! (I don't buy the cup/mug solution btw)

Quote
which she brought with her approx 12:15 when she was with Sarah Stanton, and she is NOT the small short woman at the east side of steps seen in the same frames at the same time that PM is in the west corner…

This identification of Ms Sanders in Darnell is a complete nonsense:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bN1HFY5W/Sanders-in-Darnell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Watch how 'she' flickers magically into being for just one frame!

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8CqxrmG/Sanders-in-Darnell-not.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Quote
Then itgere a possibility PM could be Pauline Sanders who just forgot she she moved from where she stated she was which was the east side of the landing.

She never AFAIK stated that she was on the east side of the entranceway at the actual time of the shooting. She just puts herself there ~12:20pm. And no one AFAIK states that she was right beside them on the east side of the entranceway at the actual time of the shooting.

Quote
And of course she was wearing a dark  dress that day also…

With her hair in a different style than the photo of her..

Neither of these things is particularly problematical--------------and they're certainly a lot less problematical than believing Mr Oswald was in women's clothing!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 09, 2022, 05:08:28 PM
Of the  reasons suggested so far to negate that  PM is Oswald, the strongest one imo is the unresolved shadow anomaly on Lovelady in Weigman film frame coincident with ( if certified) the person with forearm raised holding bottle ( in the Cronkite version Altgens 6 photo) located exactly at that darken out area of Lovelady.

To explain this new speculative location for Oswald as the reason for the shadow anomaly of Lovelady is going to appear so incredulous that I’m almost afraid to attempt it. 😵‍💫

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 22, 2022, 05:44:20 PM
Of the  reasons suggested so far to negate that  PM is Oswald, the strongest one imo is the unresolved shadow anomaly on Lovelady in Weigman film frame coincident with ( if certified) the person with forearm raised holding bottle ( in the Cronkite version Altgens 6 photo) located exactly at that darken out area of Lovelady.

To explain this new speculative location for Oswald as the reason for the shadow anomaly of Lovelady is going to appear so incredulous that I’m almost afraid to attempt it. 😵‍💫

Well, Mr Mason, let's start with what is demonstrably non-credible:

A man facing forward into full sunlight having a shadow running down one side of his body

(https://i.postimg.cc/15VjnsZs/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

From this we have to ask:

Would the reason for this monkeying with the image have been
a) trivial?
b) serious?

Assuming b), we next have to ask:

What serious reason would the 'investigators' possibly have had to hide something in that area?

Proof of the presence of the accused sixth-floor shooter seems to meet that criterion, no?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 24, 2022, 03:49:21 AM
Since there is the LN criticism of the “out front” location for Oswald based on Oswald’s statement of “naturally if I work IN that building “ in response to the question : Were you in the building at the time “?

So I’m considering the idea that Oswald initially was in the front lobby looking thru  the glass partition   when Carolyn Arnold (looking back) saw him at approx 12:25, and that Oswald did not actually come out to stand on the steps until just a few seconds AFTER the shots were fired.

This might address the probability question of how Oswald could be next to and in FRONT of several persons yet he was apparently unnoticed or not remembered by such persons.

The psychological effect therefore might be the phenomenon of “missing the Gorilla in  the midst of the basketball players” because of shock effect of shots fired causing focus of mind to flight or fight response.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2022, 09:56:47 PM
Since there is the LN criticism of the “out front” location for Oswald based on Oswald’s statement of “naturally if I work IN that building “ in response to the question : Were you in the building at the time “?

So I’m considering the idea that Oswald initially was in the front lobby looking thru  the glass partition   when Carolyn Arnold (looking back) saw him at approx 12:25, and that Oswald did not actually come out to stand on the steps until just a few seconds AFTER the shots were fired.

This might address the probability question of how Oswald could be next to and in FRONT of several persons yet he was apparently unnoticed or not remembered by such persons.

The psychological effect therefore might be the phenomenon of “missing the Gorilla in  the midst of the basketball players” because of shock effect of shots fired causing focus of mind to flight or fight response.

Mr Oswald behind the front door at the time of the actual shots is indeed possible, though "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" suggests that is not what he actually claimed in custody. It would also, of course, leave the impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in Wiegman unexplained..........

I suspect that Ms Arnold did indeed spot Mr Oswald behind the glass front door shortly before the motorcade's arrival----------and that he was keeping an eye on things so he could nip outside at the last moment (he hated small talk and would have found standing around on the steps for several minutes with other employees uncongenial). If----------as I am doubly surmising----------he nipped outside at the last minute and then left the steps immediately after the shots rang out to follow Mr Shelley down on to the street, it's unsurprising that he would go generally unnoticed.

The enclosed, raised-steps entranceway was in the front part of the building. As such it was 'in the building', albeit not INSIDE it. (The Warren Gullibles always pretend the reporter asked 'Were you INSIDE the building at the time?') To leave the building fully, one had to descend the steps and hit the sidewalk.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2022, 10:49:00 PM
The enclosed, raised-steps entranceway was in the front part of the building. As such it was 'in the building', albeit not INSIDE it. (The Warren Gullibles always pretend the reporter asked 'Were you INSIDE the building at the time?') To leave the building fully, one had to descend the steps and hit the sidewalk.

Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes recalled Mr Oswald saying he was up in the building and ran downstairs to see what all the commotion was about.

The chances that Mr Oswald said in interrogation 'Yeah, you got me, I was on an upper floor during the assassination' are precisely zilch.

I believe what Mr Oswald actually talked about was being UP in the (raised front part of the) building (i.e. the front steps) when the shots rang out. Therefore his view of what was happening down Elm Street was blocked. Thus, in order to see what all the commotion was about, he rushed DOWN the steps and out on to the street.

I submit that Mr Oswald left the building TWICE in the space of a few minutes:
1. Running down off the front steps within seconds of the shots ringing out
[---------->Re-entering the building a few minutes later with Mr Shelley via the west door]
2. Re-exiting several minutes later by the front door, where he was stopped by an officer and let pass only after Mr Truly vouched for him as an employee

Mr Holmes, not being privy to Mr Oswald's previous statements on these two exits, erroneously conflated them into one

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 25, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

I submit that Mr Oswald left the building TWICE in the space of a few minutes:
1. Running down off the front steps within seconds of the shots ringing out
[---------->Re-entering the building a few minutes later with Mr Shelley via the west door]
2. Re-exiting several minutes later by the front door, where he was stopped by an officer and let pass only after Mr Truly vouched for him as an employee

Mr Holmes, not being privy to Mr Oswald's previous statements on these two exits, erroneously conflated them into one


According to Mr Harry D. Holmes, Mr Oswald in custody recalled being stopped at the front door by an officer, who only let him pass when he was cleared as an employee by his superintendent of the place. The superintendent of the place was Mr Roy Truly.

From Asst. Chief Charles Batchelor's report on the activities of Deputy Chief of Police George L. Lumpkin:

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdFT6ptH/Kaminski-Batchelor-report-on-Lumpkin.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Question!

How did Mr Oswald know that Mr Truly was at the front door several minutes after the assassination vouching for employees to a police officer (Eric Kaminski)? How would somebody who got out of the Depository well before Mr Truly came back downstairs know that this was the precise system that was after that put in place?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 26, 2022, 10:44:18 AM
Friends, I invite you to read slowly this from Mrs Reid's WC testimony. It is an exceedingly strange moment:

Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?
Mrs. REID. No.
Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the premises?
Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.
Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice?
Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that.
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.
Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now?
Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now.
Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.
We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, Mrs. Reid.


------------Why on earth does Mr Carr ask Ms Reid that bizarre question, a question no other Depository witness was asked?
------------Why does Mr Dulles intervene to modify the topic?
------------Why does Mr Belin then go completely off-topic and shut down Mr Carr's line of questioning altogether?

Did Mr Carr receive word that either Mr Oswald's wife or his mother had been contacted by someone claiming to be a female Depository employee with important information?

If so, what might that information have been?

Speculation: A female employee encountered a Coke-carrying Mr Oswald just after the assassination-------out on the street in front of the building.

Was Mr Oswald with or near Mr Bill Shelley when the latter ran into Ms Gloria Calvery out at 'the corner of the park'?

(https://i.postimg.cc/25X4RG3F/Shelley-Calvery.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

If so, Mr Shelley's change of story for the WC would be explained: I remained on the steps until after Gloria came running up and told us all what had happened. LHO-Calvery encounter: erased!

Perhaps Mr Carr asks Ms Reid that otherwise bizarre question because he is struck by the similarity between Ms Reid's story and the female employee story he has heard via one of the Oswald women: I saw Lee with a coke; I told him the Pres. had been shot
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on January 31, 2023, 02:43:36 PM
If so, Mr Shelley's change of story for the WC would be explained: I remained on the steps until after Gloria came running up and told us all what had happened. LHO-Calvery encounter: erased!

Perhaps Mr Carr asks Ms Reid that otherwise bizarre question because he is struck by the similarity between Ms Reid's story and the female employee story he has heard via one of the Oswald women: I saw Lee with a coke; I told him the Pres. had been shot

From the recent book The Lone Star Speaks:

As Frazier watched the motorcade pass, he heard three shots and saw spectators begin running west towards the triple underpass. Shelley and Lovelady immediately ran in that direction, too, simply because that’s where all the activity seemed to be. From their position on the steps, the men were unable to see whether anyone in the motorcade was hit by the shots.

“I think the only reason Billy and Mr. Shelley ran to the underpass area is because that’s where so many other bystanders were running,” commented Frazier. Importantly, the witnesses on the Depository steps did not look up to the upper floors.

On the way to the underpass, Lovelady and Shelley encountered Gloria Calvary running from the area later known as “the grassy knoll” or the “grassy area.”

“The President’s been shot!” she cried, so Shelley and Lovelady changed directions and followed the crowds towards the railroad tracks, which were north of the grassy area. Frazier and Sarah Stanton moved down to the sidewalk in front of the Depository and talked with other bystanders about the sounds they had heard, still uncertain as to whether there had been shots or not.


This account is intriguing because it blends elements from Mr. Shelley's 11/22 affidavit (After running down off the steps, I ran into Gloria Calvery) with elements from what Messrs. Shelley & Lovelady told the WC (We both left the steps together, but only after Gloria Calvery had come running up to the steps and told us what had happened).

It is not clear whether the authors have drawn this version of events from Mr. Frazier (their interviewee), or are putting their own gloss on the thing.

IF this is coming from Mr. Frazier's own recollection, then I submit that he may possibly be giving us a half-truth to cover for a truth which can be conveyed by substituting one name:

As Frazier watched the motorcade pass, he heard three shots and saw spectators begin running west towards the triple underpass. Shelley and Lovelady Oswald immediately ran in that direction, too, simply because that’s where all the activity seemed to be. From their position on the steps, the men were unable to see whether anyone in the motorcade was hit by the shots.

“I think the only reason Billy Lee and Mr. Shelley ran to the underpass area is because that’s where so many other bystanders were running,” commented Frazier. Importantly, the witnesses on the Depository steps did not look up to the upper floors.

On the way to the underpass, Lovelady Oswald and Shelley encountered Gloria Calvary running from the area later known as “the grassy knoll” or the “grassy area.”

“The President’s been shot!” she cried, so Shelley and Lovelady Oswald changed directions and followed the crowds towards the railroad tracks, which were north of the grassy area. Frazier and Sarah Stanton moved down to the sidewalk in front of the Depository and talked with other bystanders about the sounds they had heard, still uncertain as to whether there had been shots or not.


A good deal hangs upon the simple question: is this Mr. Billy Lovelady, still on the steps, in Darnell?

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHGZvLGs/Lovelady-in-Darnell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It does look like him. If it is him, then the location of the Calvery encounter given in Mr. Shelley's affidavit trumps the location given by Messrs. Shelley & Lovelady in their WC testimony.

In which case----------------------Was it in fact Mr. Oswald, and not Mr. Lovelady, who ran off the steps with Mr. Shelley?

Nota bene! Neither Mr. Shelley's nor Mr. Lovelady 11/22 affidavit contains any mention of their having paired off together just after the shooting. Mr. Shelley's affidavit speaks only of himself (does he already know better than to mention Mr. Oswald?); Mr. Lovelady doesn't even mention leaving the steps at all. And here is Mr. Lovelady, quite a few minutes later, still on the steps:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kDPqbMbN/Martin-Film-Clip-With-Lovelady.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

When shown frames from this Martin film by Mr. Robert Groden, Mr. Lovelady makes the startling admission: I didn't re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting!

There is, in short, good reason to suspect that Mr. Lovelady was NOT the man who left the front steps with Mr. Shelley just after the shots rang out.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 01, 2023, 05:47:03 PM
Now!

It is a little-appreciated fact that Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier, in his WC testimony, puts Mr. Oswald in a gray, flannel-looking jacket that morning. Mr. Frazier says this jacket was familiar to him from previous occasions, so he is working off more than a once-off fleeting look on this question.

Under-appreciated also is the fact that Mr. Charles Givens tells the WC that Mr. Oswald "would wear a grey looking jacket" to work.

If these men are correct, and Mr. Oswald wore a gray jacket to work, then it is worth noting that we have never seen that gray jacket. We picture him to ourselves, at the time of the assassination, in a tshirt, or in a brown shirt over a tshirt, or in a reddish-brown shirt over a tshirt, but not in a gray jacket. We might be making a big mistake there....................

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 03, 2023, 11:43:22 AM
Well!

We have two statements, each attributed to Mr. Ochus Campbell, that Mr. Oswald was seen in a storage room on the first floor shortly after the assassination.

Exhibit #1! Dallas Morning News, 11/23/63 (by Mr. Kent Biffle):

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKGK1qD2/Campbell-DMN.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Exhibit #2! New York Herald Tribune, 11/23/63:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sx8TGg4R/Campbell-storage.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Note that the DMN article gives an indirect quote, whereas the NYHT one provides a direct quote.

And there are not one but two eyebrow-raising details in that direct quote from Mr. Campbell:
---------1. "We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor"
---------2. "he did not have permission to leave the building"

Well, if no. 2 here is referring to the time when Mr. Truly and Officer Baker have just run into the buidling, then Mr. Campbell's statement is most odd. All employees, at that time, had permission to leave the building. Why, most of the building's employees had left the building to view the P. Parade! There was no prohibition on employees leaving the building when on their lunch hour-----------we know, for instance, that a catering truck came by for anyone who wished to buy lunch.

This indicates that Mr. Campbell is talking about somewhat later timeframe: several minutes later, when the building was locked down.

So..................... how could Mr. Biffle have gotten the wrong end of the stick?

Here's what I think may have happened:

----------------Mr. Biffle heard, early on, that Mr. Truly & an officer had run into a 'worker' inside the building just after the assassination, and the officer had challenged this man at gunpoint, before releasing him on the word of the building manager. What Mr. Biffle did NOT hear was any NAME for this employee, nor the all-important detail: this 'worker' was caught by the rear stairway several floors up the building (as would be reflected in Officer Baker's affidavit later that day).

----------------Mr. Biffle also heard, at a considerably later point, when the word 'Oswald' was on everyone's lips, Mr. Campbell say what the NYHT reporter heard him say, i.e. that this Oswald was seen in a small storage room on the ground floor shortly after the shooting. Mr. Biffle understandably but erroneously put two and two together, and came out with five: this Oswald guy must have been the worker Mr. Truly had vouched for to the gun-toting cop. And so Mr. Biffle conflated the two sightings.

All of which would leave us with Mr. Oswald spotted in or by one of the two small storage rooms on the first floor several minutes after the shooting.

On the scenario I have been exploring in recent posts on this thread,
----------Mr. Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade (just as he claimed)
----------then, when shots rang out, he ran down off the steps, with Mr. Bill Shelley in front
----------they both heard from Ms. Gloria Calvery that Pres. Kennedy had been shot
----------they both headed west to the edge of the railroad yards, where they stood around for a little while watching all the excitement
----------they both re-entered the building, via the west door
----------Mr. Oswald was spotted by the storage room on the first floor (perhaps by several people, including Mr. Ochus Campbell [remember: the direct quote has him say "We saw him"])
----------At some point after this, Mr. Oswald went to the front entrance to leave: by this time, an officer (Lt. Kaminski) was posted there: he stopped Mr. Oswald, and only let him go after Mr. Truly vouched for him

Mr. Oswald related all this to Captain Fritz in that first interrogation, and his claims were ruthlessly distorted in the official interrogation reports. Meanwhile, important work was undertaken------------through the addition of a magic shadow (down Mr. Lovelady's side) in Wiegman, and the creation of a 'post-Cronkite' version of the Altgens photograph----------- to erase visual evidence of Mr. Oswald's presence in the doorway at the time of the shooting

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTbrBk2Z/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkqntWqN/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on February 03, 2023, 07:12:47 PM
Well!

We have two statements, each attributed to Mr. Ochus Campbell, that Mr. Oswald was seen in a storage room on the first floor shortly after the assassination.

Exhibit #1! Dallas Morning News, 11/23/63 (by Mr. Kent Biffle):

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKGK1qD2/Campbell-DMN.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Exhibit #2! New York Herald Tribune, 11/23/63:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sx8TGg4R/Campbell-storage.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Note that the DMN article gives an indirect quote, whereas the NYHT one provides a direct quote.

And there are not one but two eyebrow-raising details in that direct quote from Mr. Campbell:
---------1. "We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor"
---------2. "he did not have permission to leave the building"

Well, if no. 2 here is referring to the time when Mr. Truly and Officer Baker have just run into the buidling, then Mr. Campbell's statement is most odd. All employees, at that time, had permission to leave the building. Why, most of the building's employees had left the building to view the P. Parade! There was no prohibition on employees leaving the building when on their lunch hour-----------we know, for instance, that a catering truck came by for anyone who wished to buy lunch.

This indicates that Mr. Campbell is talking about somewhat later timeframe: several minutes later, when the building was locked down.

So..................... how could Mr. Biffle have gotten the wrong end of the stick?

Here's what I think may have happened:

----------------Mr. Biffle heard, early on, that Mr. Truly & an officer had run into a 'worker' inside the building just after the assassination, and the officer had challenged this man at gunpoint, before releasing him on the word of the building manager. What Mr. Biffle did NOT hear was any NAME for this employee, nor the all-important detail: this 'worker' was caught by the rear stairway several floors up the building (as would be reflected in Officer Baker's affidavit later that day).

----------------Mr. Biffle also heard, at a considerably later point, when the word 'Oswald' was on everyone's lips, Mr. Campbell say what the NYHT reporter heard him say, i.e. that this Oswald was seen in a small storage room on the ground floor shortly after the shooting. Mr. Biffle understandably but erroneously put two and two together, and came out with five: this Oswald guy must have been the worker Mr. Truly had vouched for to the gun-toting cop. And so Mr. Biffle conflated the two sightings.

All of which would leave us with Mr. Oswald spotted in or by one of the two small storage rooms on the first floor several minutes after the shooting.

On the scenario I have been exploring in recent posts on this thread,
----------Mr. Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade (just as he claimed)
----------then, when shots rang out, he ran down off the steps, with Mr. Bill Shelley in front
----------they both heard from Ms. Gloria Calvery that Pres. Kennedy had been shot
----------they both headed west to the edge of the railroad yards, where they stood around for a little while watching all the excitement
----------they both re-entered the building, via the west door
----------Mr. Oswald was spotted by the storage room on the first floor (perhaps by several people, including Mr. Ochus Campbell [remember: the direct quote has him say "We saw him"])
----------At some point after this, Mr. Oswald went to the front entrance to leave: by this time, an officer (Lt. Kaminski) was posted there: he stopped Mr. Oswald, and only let him go after Mr. Truly vouched for him

Mr. Oswald related all this to Captain Fritz in that first interrogation, and his claims were ruthlessly distorted in the official interrogation reports. Meanwhile, important work was undertaken------------through the addition of a magic shadow (down Mr. Lovelady's side) in Wiegman, and the creation of a 'post-Cronkite' version of the Altgens photograph----------- to erase visual evidence of Mr. Oswald's presence in the doorway at the time of the shooting

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTbrBk2Z/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkqntWqN/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Wouldn't it have been easier to destroy the negative of the altgens photo rather than go to all the trouble of altering it?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 03, 2023, 08:58:25 PM
Wouldn't it have been easier to destroy the negative of the altgens photo rather than go to all the trouble of altering it?

No, as it had already been shown live on national television by Mr. Walter Cronkite. Millions and millions of Americans were already aware of its existence

(https://i.postimg.cc/SNz4r1Qd/Altgens-cronkite.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on February 03, 2023, 09:11:54 PM
No, as it had already been shown live on national television by Mr. Walter Cronkite. Millions and millions of Americans were already aware of its existence

(https://i.postimg.cc/SNz4r1Qd/Altgens-cronkite.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Oh ok, so you think it had been changed AFTER it had been shown on TV by Cronkite?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 03, 2023, 09:17:39 PM
Oh ok, so you think it had been changed AFTER it had been shown on TV by Cronkite?

Yes! Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 03, 2023, 11:04:22 PM
Friends, I have been proposing that the version of Altgens shown live on TV by Mr. Walter Cronkite--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkqntWqN/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

---------------shows Mr. Oswald's raised right arm/hand as he takes a swig from a Coca Cola bottle. (We know from the draft interrogation report by Agent Hosty, discovered in 2019, that Mr. Oswald told Captain Fritz about buying this Coke BEFORE going outside to watch the P. Parade.)

Now!

It has long been assumed by researchers on both sides of the debate that the Hughes film shows Mr. Billy Lovelady shielding his eyes from the sun at near-bottom left (=west) of the doorway, just above Mr. Carl Edward Jones---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I'm not so sure about that........

--------------Just a very few seconds after the time of these frames (which fall when the Limo is coming onto Elm Street), we see Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman in a different part of the doorway
--------------Would someone looking east at the limo really have needed to shield their eyes from the sun, which would not have been in their eyes?
--------------Might not this man in Hughes be in fact raising a bottle to his lips?
(https://i.postimg.cc/LYb6myHZ/Bottle-Hughes.gif) (https://postimg.cc/LYb6myHZ)

Remember! Mr. Oswald told Captain Fritz he wore THIS shirt to work that day:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHk0KbRV/LHO-shirt-speer.png) (https://postimg.cc/62ZDgz10)

(Credit for this photo to the ever-excellent Mr. Pat Speer!)

Are we seeing, between Hughes & Altgens, the selfsame drinking action, only several seconds apart?

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkqntWqN/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/) (https://postimg.cc/LYb6myHZ) (https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif) (https://postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 04, 2023, 12:29:46 AM
Good observation there Mr.Ford. It would explain the shadowing of Lovelady and the bottle anomaly.

And if it can be shown by some geometry that hand raising the bottle is in the same spot as the shadow anomaly that’s would be helpful.

I ask Jerry Organ or Mr.Mytton (or other LNs) for any computer 3d models to see if this lines up correctly , since if an LN admits it works then the newly possible theoretical position of Oswald on the front steps can be established as a reasonable probability.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2023, 01:01:16 AM
Remember! Mr. Oswald told Captain Fritz he wore THIS shirt to work that day:

There is no mention of what shirt Oswald wore in any of the interrogation reports.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2023, 10:16:22 AM
There is no mention of what shirt Oswald wore in any of the interrogation reports.

Agent Bookhout interrogation report:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gch5BWTS/Reddish-shirt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Inspector Thomas J. Kelley interrogation report:

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYqtLCSF/Shirt-reddish-kelley.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nX8dcMLc)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 04, 2023, 10:25:24 AM
Good observation there Mr.Ford. It would explain the shadowing of Lovelady and the bottle anomaly.

And if it can be shown by some geometry that hand raising the bottle is in the same spot as the shadow anomaly that’s would be helpful.

I ask Jerry Organ or Mr.Mytton (or other LNs) for any computer 3d models to see if this lines up correctly , since if an LN admits it works then the newly possible theoretical position of Oswald on the front steps can be established as a reasonable probability.

Don't be so naive, Mr. Mason! The Warren Gullibles, being blinkered fanatics, will never admit to anything that might threaten their fantasy. They are propagandists, not honest brokers

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2023, 11:34:02 PM
It has long been assumed by researchers on both sides of the debate that the Hughes film shows Mr. Billy Lovelady shielding his eyes from the sun at near-bottom left (=west) of the doorway, just above Mr. Carl Edward Jones---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

I'm not so sure about that........

On 19 March 1964 Mr. Lovelady tells FBI this---------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3cRGMN6/Lovelady-19-March-standing.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The day before, Mr. Shelley tells FBI this--------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBtTR8D9/Shelley-18-March-Lovelady-seated.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Standing vs. Sitting = Contradiction? Not necessarily!

Each man's statement comes not just with a clear location marker
---------"on the top step to the far right against the wall" vs. "just in front of me"
but with a clear time marker too
---------"At the time the Presidential motorcade passed the Depository building" vs. "At the time... was shot"----------,
such that the following is suggested:

Mr. Lovelady is standing (back in the shadows) in order to catch a glimpse of Pres. Kennedy as the limo passes; Mr. Lovelady sits (back) down after this, and is seated when the first shot rings out; Mr. Lovelady immediately returns to his feet and tries to see what's going on down the street (he is captured in this posture in Altgens)

Neither Mr. Lovelady nor Mr. Shelley puts Mr. Lovelady anywhere near the man in red seen in the Hughes film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif) (https://postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 05, 2023, 11:45:37 PM
The figure whose praying-like hands posture earned the sobriquet 'Prayer Man' (and whom I believe to be Mrs. Pauline Sanders) seems to be visible back in the shadows in the Weaver photograph (taken as JFK is just turning on to Houston St):

(https://i.imgur.com/aFwL1Pq.jpg)

Now look how, by the time the limo is turning on to Elm St., a new figure (man in red) has appeared on the scene, and is now standing just behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones + in front of 'Prayer Man':

(https://i.imgur.com/YO1Tdd5.gif)

Is this man in red Mr. Oswald, who has left it until the very last minute to come out (holding his Coke) through the glass door and watch the P. Parade?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif) (https://postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP)

Everyone's eyes are fixed on the approaching limo, and so Mr. Oswald's arrival goes unnoticed..........

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 08, 2023, 06:39:43 AM
Yes, There appears to be  too many Billy Loveladys in multiple places.

At this point in time of the Hughes film , would not  Lovelady have likely finished his coke since he had gotten it earlier than 12:15.

Oswald on the other hand having just bought a coke after he  went up to 2nd floor lunchroom about 12:27 (from Domino where he had observed Norman and Jarman returning) , would still probably have a partly filled bottle at time of12:29:30.

So if some computer imaging program can determine that reddish shirt man raising hand up and down has bottle in the hand, and that the shirt cannot very probably be Loveladys shirt because the square grid pattern is too small to match, then it is high probable to be Oswald with partly open reddish brown shirt.

And can there be any match of the white T-shirt as being more similar to Oswald’s looser  T-shirt than Loveladys tighter neck T- shirt ( as per man on 6th floor resembling Lovelady with long sleeve white shirt presumably Lovelady having shed his flannel shirt?

Note: Would not Oswald have had to pass by in front of PM to get to the west side part of front steps?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 08, 2023, 12:04:52 PM
Note: Would not Oswald have had to pass by in front of PM to get to the west side part of front steps?

Yes, but if Mr. Oswald left it until the very last minute to pop outside, then PM would, like everyone else, have been focused on the approaching motorcade. And would have seen (if noticing him at all) the back of his head.

You're at a big soccer match. A penalty is about to be taken. All eyes, yours included, are fixed on the penalty area. Someone sits down in a seat in front of you, but the tiered seating means they don't hamper your view. Do you even notice their arrival, still less take mental note of their identity?

I believe PM is Mrs. Pauline Sanders. Mr. Oswald meant nothing to her

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvM9rq87/Sanders-LHO.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 08, 2023, 10:57:52 PM
Going on the idea then, that the magnitude of the event is enough to almost render Oswald as an invisible man, then it’s not so implausible that he went back into TSBD almost immediately following Baker/ Truly.

It’s possible the passenger elevator still had power and was  on the ground floor level when Oswald entered the front lobby about 15 secs behind Truly and Baker.

Then as Truly and Baker were occupied opening the countertop of the front desk area , Oswald entered the front passenger elevator unnoticed and about 7 secs later, Oswald was on the 2nd floor , exiting the elevator and starting down the outer hallway that leads to the 2nd floor lunchroom.

The timing works out remarkably well that at about 80 secs post shots , Oswald would be opening the vestibule door and crossing thru the small vestibule area to open the lunchroom door about 83 -85 sec.

This is when Baker arrives to the 2nd floor landing  via rear staircase following Truly, and sees the light flicker from door opening , looks over to the vestibule area and sees Oswald walking “away” thru the 2x2 window.

Oswald was going up to the lunchroom and or thru the lunchroom to retrieve his jacket that he had placed in a location he felt was more secure than Domino room or the front lobby storage room.

Probably the reason being that the items Oswald had such as his boarding room keys, his bracelet, ring, and even his wallet , he put in his jacket so as not to loose such items accidentally while he was working going up and down floors and taking books from boxes to be wrapped on the ground floor.

This scenario timing allows after The encounter w/Baker, that Oswald has retrieved his jacket by 1min 50 sec post shots and thus he had time to return to the front lobby and meet  the reporter Pierce Alman   about  2 min 10 secs post shots.

Then Oswald exited TSBD via front entrance door by 2 min 20 secs and crossed Elm st. approx by 2 min 35 secs.

Oswald was then spotted by Buell W . Frazier in this vicinity of the Elm /Houston st. Intersection, just before Frazier re entered TSBD preceding  DPD officer Barnett locking the doors approx 3 min post shots.

Note 1: this scenario is about the  only way to plausibility explain Oswald having had a 2nd floor lunchroom lunchroom encounter with Baker at 90 sec post shots, given the Hosty note placing Oswald outside of TSBD at  time of shots fired.

Note2: It may be a plausible alibi for Oswald that demonstrates he was on the ground floor level  at the time of shooting , and given the P.Parade statement recorded by Hosty note, it works  with Oswald at the new proposed location on front steps where reddish shirt man is raising his hand up and  down.

Note 3: Reddish shirt man raising hand up to mouth level and then down again so quickly suggests the act of drinking from a bottle more than it does  the act of shading eyes.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 09, 2023, 06:15:33 AM
Note 1: this scenario is about the  only way to plausibility explain Oswald having had a 2nd floor lunchroom lunchroom encounter with Baker at 90 sec post shots, given the Hosty note placing Oswald outside of TSBD at  time of shots fired.

Mr Mason, I would argue that this is the reason the second floor lunchroom was used as the fictional location for a fictional encounter: it allows for two very different scenarios
----------------LHO has just come from sixth floor
----------------LHO has just come from front entrance
It also splits the difference between two completely different sightings that have already been reported
----------------'worker' caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up (Baker affidavit)
----------------LHO spotted in a small storage room on first floor shortly after the shooting (Mr. Ochus Campbell)

The 'investigating' authorities knew that Mr. Oswald was out front for the P. Parade. The risk that proof of this could at any time seep out into the public domain (through e.g. a civilian who had a camera in Dealey Plaza going straight to an honest journalist with photographic/film evidence clearly establishing Mr. Oswald's alibi) restrained them from going all in on Mr. Oswald as sixth-floor shooter.

The interrogation reports for the first interrogation tell the story.

Here's what Agent Hosty writes in his draft report:

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6hgg1FY/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A perfectly clear sequence of events:
1. Pre-motorcade purchase of Coke in second floor lunchroom
2. Down to first floor to eat
3. Then outside to watch P. Parade

No mention of lunchroom cop encounter.

But look how this sequence of events is written up in the joint Hosty-Bookhout interrogation report for that same interrogation session:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6VkSbNd/Bookhout-Hosty-2-coke.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Key elements found in the Hosty draft report are included, but the timing and sequence of events has been rendered ambiguous. This version allows the reader to suppose the following sequence of events:

1. Eats lunch on first floor (and is there when Pres. Kennedy passed the building)
2. Up to second floor lunchroom for Coke (just after the shooting)

By rewording Mr. Oswald's claim to have gone outside onto the front steps for the P. Parade into a much vaguer claim to have been "on the first floor" when Pres. Kennedy passed, the report's authors have avoided telling an outright lie, but have also avoided telling the plain truth. Why don't they want to tell an outright lie? Because they know just how precarious the case against Mr. Oswald is, and need to cover themselves for the eventuality that he is exonerated at some point in the future.

And no mention yet of any cop encounter in the second-floor lunchroom.

Which brings us to the masterpiece that is the solo Bookhout interrogation report, which covers that selfsame first interrogation session:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QhLc9GS/Bookhout-solo-lunchroom.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr. Oswald is now dead, and the distortion of his claims in that first interrogation session can be perfected. The new starting point of Mr. Oswald's story is "the time of the search" of the building by police (i.e. post-assassination). This yields the following 'confirmation' from the suspect himself of the lunchroom encounter fiction:

1. Post-assassination purchase of Coke in second floor lunchroom
2. Cop comes in etc
3. Down to first floor to eat lunch (as though nothing has happened!)
4. Then (finally!) goes outside

So------------------Mr. Oswald tells one straightforward (and true) story, and this is then written up in three dramatically different ways.

If this really is Mr. Oswald sipping from his Coke bottle----------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif) (https://postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP)
---------------then everything the 'investigating' authorities do can be explained as putting together a case for him as a the SN shooter that can, should clear evidence of his alibi come to public light, be walked back. It would, for instance, have been easy for Captain Fritz et al to just claim (after Mr. Oswald's death) that he finally broke under interrogation on Sunday morning and confessed to the shooting. But that would have given a massive hostage to fortune........................

If Mr. Oswald went BACK up to the second-floor lunchroom, after the shooting, to retrieve his jacket (why wouldn't he have brought it down with him to the domino room in the first place?), then one presumes he would have told this fact in interrogation. Yet we get not a word about such anywhere in any of the reports. instead we get the blatant evolution in the interrogation reports from purchase of Coke in lunchroom pre-motorcade to purchase of Coke in lunchroom post-motorcade. Mr. Oswald didn't change his story in that first interrogation: he had his story changed by those in charge of curating his words for the official record.

There WAS no post-assassination visit to the second-floor lunchroom, and no cop encounter there, and that is the point.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 09, 2023, 11:04:02 AM
Mr. Oswald (reddish shirt) in Hughes film?

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)(https://i.postimg.cc/02MzQXSC/LHO-shirt-speer.jpg)[/url]

Mr. Lovelady (plaid shirt, to east of Mr. Oswald) in Bell film?

(https://i.postimg.cc/MTZrzQvh/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif) (https://postimg.cc/7CcNVb1V) (https://i.postimg.cc/yxhrXygp/Lovelady-in-color-alone-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 09, 2023, 11:13:26 AM
This man's shirt looks either unbuttoned or mostly unbuttoned.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Here, by contrast, we are seeing enough continuous 'red shirt' to cover the width of a human frame, and with no Mr. Carl Edward Jones blocking it. The lack of any white tshirt suggests the buttoned mid-to-lower part of a shirt. (Don't be fooled by the 'face' on 'top' of the shirt in the last frame: it's foliage!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MTZrzQvh/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

A very few seconds separate these two pieces of footage, folks

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 09, 2023, 01:03:46 PM
Now! The Towner film shows Our Man in Hughes in the same spot (just behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones) as in Hughes. Notice the position of the limo........
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRDCLvLc/Towner-LOST-BULLET-4-arrow.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHHsMK2h)(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

So! The question remains. How do we get this much continuous red shirt in Bell.............

(https://i.postimg.cc/MTZrzQvh/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

............from this man in red?

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 10, 2023, 11:06:14 PM
Here is Mr. Chris Davidson's sync of Bell & Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT44wtcQ/Bell-Towner.gif) (https://postimg.cc/8FxGrWDt)

The figure we see in Hughes right behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones is still there in Towner--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRDCLvLc/Towner-LOST-BULLET-4-arrow.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHHsMK2h)

--------------, which means he's still there in Bell.

I don't think there can be much doubt that this is Mr. Lovelady's plaid shirt in Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbv1PvCw/Bell-LOVELADY.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z0wSr1TW)

Given how much of this continuous plaid shirt (the full width of a man) we're seeing in Bell, I think there can be much doubt that the red-shirted figure in Hughes (standing behind Mr. Jones, with his shirt [at least largely] unbuttoned) is Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 11, 2023, 01:42:12 AM
It may be necessary to determine if Oswald’s body outline fits there between Lovelady and the left elbow of PM, in the Weigman film clip already posted in this thread. ( the shadow anomaly)

As it appears to me, if considering that Loveladys right shoulder is in some of that darkened right side, then the horizontal distance between his right side body and the left elbow of PM may be too narrow for an Oswald body to fit without having obscured part of PMs left elbow.

But I’ll leave it to Mr.Ford or other forum member who is able to post the weigman frame with a yellow outline approximating Oswald’s body at the correct scale.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2023, 01:46:54 AM
It may be necessary to determine if Oswald’s body outline fits there between Lovelady and the left elbow of PM, in the Weigman film clip already posted in this thread. ( the shadow anomaly)

As it appears to me, if considering that Loveladys right shoulder is in some of that darkened right side, then the horizontal distance between his right side body and the left elbow of PM may be too narrow for an Oswald body to fit without having obscured part of PMs left elbow.

Not if Mr. Oswald is in front of & below Mr. Lovelady
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 11, 2023, 03:22:38 AM
Well Maybe if Oswald head fits in there and his shoulder line is definitely lower than Loveladys judging from the Cronkite version Altgens photo.

Just want to make Mr.Mytton can’t shoot the whole idea down like he did demonstrating with yellow lines  showing the 5’3” height of PM .

Which then prompted a whole convoluted theory and computer analysis to explain how Oswald  was standing with one foot on one step down and 1 foot on top landing in a delicately balanced pose 🙄
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 11, 2023, 07:01:01 AM
More support, possibly.
Pretty sure I previously posted this (think it would have been in response to this thread) as the creation date was Aug 8, 2022.

(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-Red-Shirts.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 11, 2023, 08:48:00 AM
Stabilized:
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2023, 10:17:38 AM
Great gosh, Mr. Davidson, what an eye you have! I'm sorry I missed this when you previously posted it, and thank you for re-posting Thumb1:

If this is what it looks like, then........................

1. we are getting a full-width view of the shirt of Mr.-Lovelady-in-Doorway

(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell.gif)

= one we don't get in Altgens (due to the angle of Mr. Altgens' camera), nor in Wiegman (due to a ridiculous artificial shadow which has been placed down his side). Mr. Lovelady's entire upper body is indeed facing into full sunlight

2. Mr. Lovelady is not the figure standing right behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones in Hughes/Towner

3. That man, wearing a fully or mostly unbuttoned red shirt, is.......... unidentified

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif) (https://postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 11, 2023, 04:09:54 PM
Unless it is some distortion by the camera, I’m
Seeing in that enlarged gif that Chris posted, what appears to be 2 blotches of red that when combined together in the horizontal line, are way too wide to be just one body.

So I’ll be the one to ask: could there be TWO persons with red shirts next to each other that cause this image?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 11, 2023, 05:06:13 PM
I’m
Seeing in that enlarged gif that Chris posted, what appears to be 2 blotches of red that when combined together in the horizontal line, are way too wide to be just one body.

So I’ll be the one to ask: could there be TWO persons with red shirts next to each other that cause this image?
[/b]

That's what I thought it showed too.
The collage was posted some time ago, I created the gif last night.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2023, 05:18:23 PM
Unless it is some distortion by the camera, I’m
Seeing in that enlarged gif that Chris posted, what appears to be 2 blotches of red that when combined together in the horizontal line, are way too wide to be just one body.

So I’ll be the one to ask: could there be TWO persons with red shirts next to each other that cause this image?

Not sure I agree with the premise, Mr. Mason ("way too wide to be just one body"), but............ what you're suggesting wouldn't necessarily require two persons with red shirts next to each other.

Bell could be catching a) the left shoulder of our red-shirted man in Hughes + b) Mr. Lovelady behind him, several steps up by the center rail

(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2023, 05:31:37 PM
Mr. Davidson, how many seconds would you estimate as elapsing between the end of this clip--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

and the beginning of these synchronized clips?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT44wtcQ/Bell-Towner.gif)

Thank you!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 11, 2023, 07:04:41 PM
Alan,

It's impossible to tell what the time elapse would be.
Why?
If you use the Bell/Towner sync and plot it, their LOS intersect creates a wider turn radius than most believed to have occurred.
Truly described it and that was at least one reason for the Towner splice. imo
Another would probably be, as you have long suspected, the action upon the TSBD steps so clearly in view from Towner's position.
With that said and the splice time/wider radius being discounted, it would have been a distance of approx 25ft traveled at an 8.6mph average speed = 25/12.64ft persec = 2 seconds.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2023, 07:38:05 PM
Alan,

It's impossible to tell what the time elapse would be.
Why?
If you use the Bell/Towner sync and plot it, their LOS intersect creates a wider turn radius than most believed to have occurred.
Truly described it and that was at least one reason for the Towner splice. imo
Another would probably be, as you have long suspected, the action upon the TSBD steps so clearly in view from Towner's position.
With that said and the splice time/wider radius being discounted, it would have been a distance of approx 25ft traveled at an 8.6mph average speed = 25/12.64ft persec = 2 seconds.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.



Thank you very much for this informative response, Mr. Davidson------------much appreciated!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 11, 2023, 07:50:55 PM
Friends, since 2019 this case has come down to two major rival claims:
1. LHO was on 6 firing shots (official theory)
2. LHO went outside to watch the P. Parade (his own suppressed claim in custody).

Unless someone can show us a way for the red-shirted man in Hughes--------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)
--------------to be SOLELY responsible for what we're seeing in Bell---------------
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell.gif)
----------------then we have proof of TWO red-shirted men in the west half of that doorway as Pres. Kennedy passed by.

Mr. Oswald's claim is looking awfully strong.

So! Who wants to go first at trying to salvage the claim that this is Mr. Billy Lovelady?:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 11, 2023, 10:47:31 PM
Thank you very much for this informative response, Mr. Davidson------------much appreciated!  Thumb1:
Here is a link to what I did post previously. If you scroll down just a bit you can read the brief responses we had.
Sorry I mis-spoke about the prior collage being posted, as I truly thought that was the one.
Anyhow, keep up the excellent work.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3524.msg135170.html#msg135170 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3524.msg135170.html#msg135170)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 11, 2023, 11:32:45 PM
Took the two clearest frames and enlarged them.
Doing this, it could be the tree foliage/camera movement is creating the appearance of two different bodies.
?
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell-6th-Floor2.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2023, 04:21:26 AM
Here is a link to what I did post previously. If you scroll down just a bit you can read the brief responses we had.
Sorry I mis-spoke about the prior collage being posted, as I truly thought that was the one.
Anyhow, keep up the excellent work.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3524.msg135170.html#msg135170 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3524.msg135170.html#msg135170)

Many thanks, Mr. Davidson-------------------------I had completely forgotten this exchange, as the full potential significance of your suggestion just didn't register with me at the time! Your identification of the Lovelady arm turns what was an amorphous plaid blob into a fragment we can make some physiognomical sense of. Brilliant work!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2023, 04:39:13 AM
Took the two clearest frames and enlarged them.
Doing this, it could be the tree foliage/camera movement is creating the appearance of two different bodies.
?
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell-6th-Floor2.gif)

Yes, I'm not convinced (at least not yet) that we are necessarily seeing two different shirts in Bell.

The key point IMO is the fact that we are seeing an unbroken horizontal stretch of red in Bell.

The disposition of that part of the red shirt of our man in Hughes not blocked by Mr. Carl Edward Jones
--------------(red [right shoulder]-white[tshirt]-red[left shoulder])--------------
simply does not allow for what we're seeing in Bell
--------------(red-red-red)----------------.
And Bell's vantage point would yield MORE blockage of our man in red by Mr. Jones!

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell-6th-Floor2.gif)

Now! Someone might suggest: 'Maybe Carl Edward Jones lowered his body momentarily, thus making visible to Bell the buttoned lower part of Lovelady's shirt?'
Nope. Towner rules that out: it can be synced to the Bell frames, and it shows Mr. Jones still standing upright as he was doing in Hughes, still blocking our man in red just like he was doing in Hughes.

I cannot, in short, see a logical way for our man in red in Hughes to be Mr. Lovelady.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 12, 2023, 06:34:46 AM
Yes, I'm not convinced (at least not yet) that we are necessarily seeing two different shirts in Bell.

The key point IMO is the fact that we are seeing an unbroken horizontal stretch of red in Bell.

The disposition of that part of the red shirt of our man in Hughes not blocked by Mr. Carl Edward Jones
--------------(red [right shoulder]-white[tshirt]-red[left shoulder])--------------
simply does not allow for what we're seeing in Bell
--------------(red-red-red)----------------.

And Bell's vantage point would yield MORE blockage of our man in red by Mr. Jones!

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell-6th-Floor2.gif)

Now! Someone might suggest: 'Maybe Carl Edward Jones lowered his body momentarily, thus making visible to Bell the buttoned lower part of Lovelady's shirt?'
Nope. Towner rules that out: it can be synced to the Bell frames, and it shows Mr. Jones still standing upright as he was doing in Hughes, still blocking our man in red just like he was doing in Hughes.

I cannot, in short, see a logical way for our man in red in Hughes to be Mr. Lovelady.

 Thumb1:
Nice summation.
Short of someone trying to convince us that the same person covered the white t-shirt by buttoning up their red overshirt in approx 2 sec (unrealistic), I'm not seeing another alternative other than what you have described.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2023, 02:59:16 PM
Nice summation.
Short of someone trying to convince us that the same person covered the white t-shirt by buttoning up their red overshirt in approx 2 sec (unrealistic), I'm not seeing another alternative other than what you have described.

Precisely, Mr. Davidson!

Which leaves us with two red-shirted men in the west half of the doorway:
1. Mr. Billy Lovelady
2. A slender white male in a reddish shirt over a white tshirt, apparently drinking from a bottle

Who on EARTH can #2 be?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

If ONLY we had a Depository employee who
a) fits the description of #2
b) claimed to have gone outside to watch P. Parade

It's so frustratingly hard to work out.........................

;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 12, 2023, 05:22:48 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis08.jpg)

Where was this fellow (red sweater) during the assassination?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 12, 2023, 07:42:43 PM
Precisely, Mr. Davidson!

Which leaves us with two red-shirted men in the west half of the doorway:
1. Mr. Billy Lovelady
2. A slender white male in a reddish shirt over a white tshirt, apparently drinking from a bottle

Who on EARTH can #2 be?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

If ONLY we had a Depository employee who
a) fits the description of #2
b) claimed to have gone outside to watch P. Parade

It's so frustratingly hard to work out.........................

;)
Was Lovelady coerced into testifying to parallel Oswald actions?
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
The red shirted person in Bell(plotted) is (basically/very close) to where Lovelady? is in Hughes. That person is on the west side of the center railing and closer to the west wall opening
If the person in Hughes' coke drinking gif was Lovelady, then the red shirted person in Bell is not Lovelady.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2023, 08:06:25 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis08.jpg)

Where was this fellow (red sweater) during the assassination?

Are you talking about the young black man standing here beside Mr. Carl Edward Jones on the steps, Mr. Organ?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2023, 08:25:18 PM
Was Lovelady coerced into testifying to parallel Oswald actions?
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

One certainly has to wonder, Mr. Davidson........ And I believe Mr. Lovelady may have taken on Mr. Oswald's role in his claim to have accompanied Mr. Shelley off the steps and over west.

Incidentally, Mr. Lovelady, in insisting (accurately) that he was indeed the man in the doorway in Altgens, gave false testimony when he stated he was over on the far west side of the doorway. He was misunderstanding the angle at which Mr. Altgens' photograph was taken!
 
Quote
The red shirted person in Bell(plotted) is (basically/very close) to where Lovelady? is in Hughes. That person is on the west side of the center railing and closer to the west wall opening

Are we sure about that, given Bell's POV? I've been thinking the red shirted person in Bell is at or close to the Lovelady-in-Altgens/Wiegman position (i.e. up several steps and right over by the center rail)? Cf. his relation to Ms. Maddie Reese (green arrow) in white down below in Bell.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pVZfnpVQ/Bell-LOVELADY-reese.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YjvG52Wj)

I believe Mr. Lovelady is hidden from Hughes' view because the girl on the pedestal is in the way:

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM3vs4xD/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 12, 2023, 10:08:11 PM

Are we sure about that, given Bell's POV? I've been thinking the red shirted person in Bell is at or close to the Lovelady-in-Altgens/Wiegman position (i.e. up several steps and right over by the center rail)? Cf. his relation to Ms. Maddie Reese (green arrow) in white down below in Bell.

Connecting back to Bell's pedestal:
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell-LOS.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 12, 2023, 10:51:54 PM
Connecting back to Bell's pedestal:
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Bell-LOS.png)

Much thanks for this, Mr. Davidson!

If it's not too much trouble, could you give us the map with the red lines going all the way back to Mr. Bell's pedestal?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 12, 2023, 10:57:16 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/3c/0d/SRm0Rufz_o.jpg)

There are two parallel horizontal lines that run from the tiles and across the entrance. Top horizontal line goes to the guy shielding his face. The lower horizontal line goes to Maddie Reese.

The oval area is about where "Red Shirt" stood. There are reddish blobs in that area in the Towner film, per one of your animations.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT44wtcQ/Bell-Towner.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 12:01:26 AM
As to height, it would seem that Mr. Lovelady, at the time of Bell, is on the same step as in the later Wiegman frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fz0tWnsg/Bell-Wiegman-Organ.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Altgens/early-Wiegman catches him on a higher step (to get a better view down Elm St., presumably); then he steps back down (later-Wiegman).

As to how far from the center rail he is in Bell, well let's see (drawing lines across Altgens is........ risky)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 13, 2023, 04:33:10 AM
Much thanks for this, Mr. Davidson!

If it's not too much trouble, could you give us the map with the red lines going all the way back to Mr. Bell's pedestal?

 Thumb1:
Surely.
The first one was connecting him to the center of the pedestal.
I believe he was at the north end according to the photo, so that is where I made this connection.
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-LOS.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Patrick Jackson on February 13, 2023, 01:37:07 PM
I have very little doubt that the LHO was on the front door steps together with Lovelady and that the person in the Hughes film was Roscoe White.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSLJhyxV/Altgens-Blowup.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 04:57:14 PM
Surely.
The first one was connecting him to the center of the pedestal.
I believe he was at the north end according to the photo, so that is where I made this connection.
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-LOS.png)

Many thanks, Mr. Davidson!  Thumb1:

Perhaps the yellow traffic pole offers another useful point of reference?

(https://i.postimg.cc/L61mRhBh/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0009-traffic.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BX4rBSzG)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 13, 2023, 05:43:21 PM
Many thanks, Mr. Davidson!  Thumb1:

Perhaps the yellow traffic pole offers another useful point of reference?

(https://i.postimg.cc/L61mRhBh/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0009-traffic.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BX4rBSzG)

Pinpoint the traffic pole on a map, then.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 07:13:17 PM
Pinpoint the traffic pole on a map, then.

It's already pinpointed on the map Mr. Davidson has been using, Mr. Organ
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 07:56:33 PM
Friends, there are still some details to be teased out here and there, and some jolly back-and-forth to be had, but I believe we are now at the point where we can-------------for the very first time ever------------track Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald's exact positions/movements during the assassination.

POSITION A

Mr. Oswald is just behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones at the bottom of the west side of the entrance way.

We first see him here in Hughes, sipping from his Coke bottle, which he holds in his right hand-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif).

The next time we see him here is in Towner a couple of seconds later------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRDCLvLc/Towner-LOST-BULLET-4-arrow.jpg)

(We don't see him in Bell because he is blocked by all the intervening foliage.)

The final glimpse of him in this same spot is in the version of the Altgens photograph shown live on TV by Mr. Walter Cronkite the evening of the assassination. He is caught doing once again exactly what we saw him do a few seconds prior in Hughes: taking a drink from his Coke, which he holds in his right hand:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkqntWqN/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

POSITION B

Mr. Oswald, in response presumably to hearing the first loud bang, and wishing to better see what's going on down Elm St., has moved across to his left (i.e. east).

He is now here, his recognizable face hidden to history by a ridiculous and physically impossible artificial shadow that has been added down Mr. Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTbrBk2Z/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

By the time of Darnell, he has left the front steps.

The Weaver photo suggests he came out through that glass front door at the very last minute, and so would have stayed on those steps for under a minute in all.

Mr. Oswald claimed in that first interrogation that he "went outside to watch P. Parade", and he was telling the truth. The rest is non-history.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 13, 2023, 10:34:22 PM
Alan,

Another would probably be, as you have long suspected, the action upon the TSBD steps so clearly in view from Towner's position.

The splice is between 2+3
A little clearer, hopefully:
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Towner.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 10:55:14 PM
The splice is between 2+3
A little clearer, hopefully:
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Towner.gif)

Wow, Mr. Davidson, excellent stuff!

Have you any thoughts as to what is going on there (the flapping)? I never bought the 'It's a woman in the crowd' claim.

If the splice is related to this, what might they have wanted to hide?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 11:38:24 PM
It's the strangest darn thing, this Towner scene

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx4mNCfj/Bell-Towner.gif)

Coming to it from Hughes...............:

-------------We can see that Mr. Carl Edward Jones is still in place (& stationary) ✔

-------------We can see that the figure behind him is still in place (& stationary) ✔

-------------But what the heck is that large flapping object just east of both men? ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 13, 2023, 11:54:42 PM
Wow, Mr. Davidson, excellent stuff!

Have you any thoughts as to what is going on there (the flapping)? I never bought the 'It's a woman in the crowd' claim.

Apropos!

(https://i.postimg.cc/50dhnMKy/Belltowner-lady-in-black.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

This lady in black is most certainly NOT responsible for the large flapping object! Her 'handkerchief' is just film noise in Bell.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 12:07:09 AM
It's the strangest darn thing, this Towner scene

Perhaps completely OFF-TOPIC! (Or perhaps not................):

Question! Why were so many people standing packed together on the EAST side of the doorway , and so few standing on the WEST side? What was it about those west steps that made folks so west-averse??

Think about it. What------------other than somebody already standing there-----------might stop you from taking up your position on a certain part of the steps?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 01:33:22 AM
Perhaps completely OFF-TOPIC! (Or perhaps not................):

Question! Why were so many people standing packed together on the EAST side of the doorway , and so few standing on the WEST side? What was it about those west steps that made folks so west-averse??

Think about it. What------------other than somebody already standing there-----------might stop you from taking up your position on a certain part of the steps?

We shall return to this question anon....................

But first, some other questions!

Question 1!
Why are Mr. Carl Edward Jones' clothes showing up in blue in Hughes and Towner? He was wearing beige that day.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx4mNCfj/Bell-Towner.gif)



Question 2!
Why did this same Mr. Carl Edward Jones say this to FBI on 3/18/64?
"When President John F . Kennedy was shot I was sitting on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building."

Question 3!
If Mr. Roy Edward Lewis had his cardigan off, what color would his clothes show up as in a color film?
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5GnzDd7/Roy-Edward-Lewis-front-steps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Question 4!
If Mr. Roy Edward Lewis and not Mr. Carl Edward Jones were the man standing at the bottom of the west side of the doorway, and if Mr. Lewis were (with his left hand) waving his brown cardigan enthusiastically at the passing Pres. & Mrs. Kennedy, might it not look just like what we see in Towner?
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Towner.gif)

Question 5!
If the beige-clothed Mr. Carl Edward Jones were sitting several steps up just east of and some distance behind Mr. Roy Edward Lewis, might not his torso flicker in and out of view from behind Mr. Lewis' cardigan just like this?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx4mNCfj/Bell-Towner.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1R8bqBm4/Bell-Towner-frame-0005-jones.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Question 6: The Summative Question!
Is this man really Mr. Carl Edward Jones? Or is he in fact Mr. Roy Edward Lewis?

(https://i.postimg.cc/023GFGDM/Wiegman-Jones-or-Lewis.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I submit that he is Mr. Roy Edward Lewis.

It may interest you to know that Mr. Lewis himself has identified himself as this man (in an audio interview not too long ago). Everyone (myself included) thought he was crazy. And the mystery of where the heck he is on those steps has bedevilled researchers for ages.

I submit we've been staring at him the whole time, thinking he was Mr. Carl Edward Jones.

**

'But!' I hear you cry, 'Altgens Altgens Altgens!!! It refutes your claim because it shows Jones not Lewis!!!!!!'

Indeed it does, at least in its 'canonical' reiterations.

Ah yes, Altgens Altgens Altgens. That's where the real fun and games begin...................

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)
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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 01:46:29 AM
Friends, there are still some details to be teased out here and there, and some jolly back-and-forth to be had, but I believe we are now at the point where we can-------------for the very first time ever------------track Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald's exact positions/movements during the assassination.

POSITION A

Mr. Oswald is just behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones at the bottom of the west side of the entrance way.

In the light of what I have just posted, I must update the above:

POSITION A

Mr. Oswald is just behind Mr. Carl Edward Jones Roy Edward Lewis at the bottom of the west side of the entrance way.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 14, 2023, 09:05:45 AM
Wiegman frames, four seconds between them:
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Wiegman.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 01:25:00 PM
Wiegman frames, four seconds between them:
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Wiegman.png)

Last couple of Wiegman doorway frames------------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/X7nspwds/Wiegman-disturbance.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 01:27:32 PM
Perhaps completely OFF-TOPIC! (Or perhaps not................):

Question! Why were so many people standing packed together on the EAST side of the doorway , and so few standing on the WEST side? What was it about those west steps that made folks so west-averse??

Think about it. What------------other than somebody already standing there-----------might stop you from taking up your position on a certain part of the steps?

Here's one answer: common courtesy.

You won't plant yourself in a place that blocks the view of any person or persons sitting there

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 02:30:12 PM
'But!' I hear you cry, 'Altgens Altgens Altgens!!! It refutes your claim because it shows Jones not Lewis!!!!!!'

Indeed it does, at least in its 'canonical' reiterations.

Ah yes, Altgens Altgens Altgens. That's where the real fun and games begin...................

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)
 Thumb1:

Here's what happened. The authorities, in their desperation to keep a lid on Mr. Oswald's presence on the steps, made the mother of all goof-ups.

-They studied any front doorway images they had managed to get their hands on

-They saw Mr. Oswald in Wiegman: We'll have to black him out

-They saw Mr. Oswald's right arm/coke in Altgens: We'll have to deal with that

-They looked again at Wiegman: Hey, see that black guy standing at the bottom of the steps? He might be useful here. Who is he?

-They scoured some aftermath photos, and found-------or thought they had found---------this black man: Let's take this profile of his face and paste it into Altgens to help hide the Oswald bits

e.g.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LdXyXw5/Carl-Jones-flipped.jpg)

-A profile pic was the best they could throw at the thing.  It wasn't perfect, as it had the man looking the wrong way, but needs must..........

-However, what they didn't know was that, in looking at the black-and-white Wiegman frames, they had misidentified Mr. Roy Edward Lewis as Mr. Carl Edward Jones!

-They did some retouching to Mr. Jones's face to blend it in, and retouched Mr. Oswald's lower arm/hand to make it look like Mr. Lovelady's left arm:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)

A bit of further retouching, and hey presto----------the 'canonical' post-Cronkite Altgens photo was born. The result was a hot mess, but it did the job.

Mr. Jones in 'canonical' Altgens does not refute the evidence for Mr. Roy Edward Lewis being at the bottom of the steps; the evidence for Mr. Roy Edward Lewis being at the bottom of the steps proves that Altgens was doctored

Fascinating exchange from 24:28 here. The lady questioner is quite right to point out the problem, but she hasn't worked out that the wrong man's face was used!


Mr. Lewis knew and knows exactly where he was standing at the time of the assassination. When he first saw Canonical Altgens, he must have been pretty perplexed!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 14, 2023, 04:07:50 PM
Here's what happened. The authorities, in their desperation to keep a lid on Mr. Oswald's presence on the steps, made the mother of all goof-ups.

-They studied any front doorway images they had managed to get their hands on

-They saw Mr. Oswald in Wiegman: We'll have to black him out

-They saw Mr. Oswald's right arm/coke in Altgens: We'll have to deal with that

-They looked again at Wiegman: Hey, see that black guy standing at the bottom of the steps? He might be useful here. Who is he?

-They scoured some aftermath photos, and found-------or thought they had found---------this black man: Let's take this profile of his face and paste it into Altgens to help hide the Oswald bits

e.g.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LdXyXw5/Carl-Jones-flipped.jpg)

-A profile pic was the best they could throw at the thing.  It wasn't perfect, as it had the man looking the wrong way, but needs must..........

-However, what they didn't know was that, in looking at the black-and-white Wiegman frames, they had misidentified Mr. Roy Edward Lewis as Mr. Carl Edward Jones!

-They did some retouching to Mr. Jones's face to blend it in, and retouched Mr. Oswald's upper arm/hand to make it look like Mr. Lovelady's left arm:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)

A bit of further retouching, and hey presto----------the 'canonical' post-Cronkite Altgens photo was born. The result was a hot mess, but it did the job.

Mr. Jones in 'canonical' Altgens does not refute the evidence for Mr. Roy Edward Lewis being at the bottom of the steps; the evidence for Mr. Roy Edward Lewis being at the bottom of the steps proves that Altgens was doctored

Fascinating exchange from 24:28 here. The lady questioner is quite right to point out the problem, but she hasn't worked out that the wrong man's face was used!


Mr. Lewis knew and knows exactly where he was standing at the time of the assassination. When he first saw Canonical Altgens, he must have been pretty perplexed!

 Thumb1:

Full moon or another Chinese balloon floating overhead?  This stuff is far out even from a CTer.  Take this "evidence" to the NY Times or Tucker Carlson.  Tell them you have proven that Oswald was not a shooter and that there was a conspiracy to kill the president.  Get back to us with their response.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 14, 2023, 04:48:09 PM
Full moon or another Chinese balloon floating overhead?  This stuff is far out even from a CTer.  Take this "evidence" to the NY Times or Tucker Carlson.  Tell them you have proven that Oswald was not a shooter and that there was a conspiracy to kill the president.  Get back to us with their response.

Atlantic Monthly might be interested. They're doing a series exposing conspiracy cults.

The guy in the red sweater ...

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis08.jpg)

... appears momentarily (he's sitting or stands for the President) through some foliage in a film clip. But he must be Lovelady or Oswald?? They're so desperate to get Oswald on the steps (in front of people on the steps who would have noticed him).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 07:39:43 PM
Atlantic Monthly might be interested. They're doing a series exposing conspiracy cults.

The guy in the red sweater ...

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis08.jpg)

... appears momentarily (he's sitting or stands for the President) through some foliage in a film clip. But he must be Lovelady or Oswald?? They're so desperate to get Oswald on the steps (in front of people on the steps who would have noticed him).

~Grin~

Mr. Organ, if all you've got by way of alternative candidate to Mr. Lovelady is a guy in a brown cardigan over a blue shirt, then I'm not the one who's desperate here

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 07:42:50 PM
Full moon or another Chinese balloon floating overhead?  This stuff is far out even from a CTer.  Take this "evidence" to the NY Times or Tucker Carlson.  Tell them you have proven that Oswald was not a shooter and that there was a conspiracy to kill the president.  Get back to us with their response.

And Mr. Smith is coming up empty too. Noted!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2023, 10:12:03 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1g5rK9v/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bNZzq0Zt/Altgens-Groden-REESE-ARM.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/8zsrQrSK/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-small-REESE-ARM.jpg)

Mr. Lovelady in Bell is already behind and up a few steps from Mrs. Reese. He appears to be on the same step as in the later Wiegman frames (one of which I have posted above).

The syncing of Towner and Bell rules out all possibility that Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Mr. Oswald-------------------in his reddish shirt, drinking his Coke

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 15, 2023, 02:45:04 AM
For  what reason would conspirators need to paste one black man over top of another black man?

Theres an inconsistency with red shirt man in Hughes film when he’s holding up his hand (holding the speculative bottle) : His sleeves appear covering his forearm. In the Cronkite version Altgens , the arm holding bottle appears to have sleeves rolled up. The arm and hand are same light tone ( which is why it’s not the hand of the black guy ( Jones/Lewis).

Not even sure if the quick gesture being made by Red shirt man is a bottle brought to mouth. It could be just a salute to the POTUS.

The white shirt of Red Shirt Man  is extremely white which suggests the thicker long sleeve white shirt that Lovelady was wearing when he was caught on film
On the 6th floor having removed his red plaid flannel shirt.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 09:30:47 AM
For  what reason would conspirators need to paste one black man over top of another black man?

As already explained, Mr. Mason, they mixed up Messrs. Lewis and Jones, and pasted in Mr. Jones' face because they needed something to take the place of the Coke bottle as it cuts across Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j50jDzg9/Cronkite-sharp-shirt-gif.gif)

Whatever portion of Mr. Lewis' face may have showed in the original Altgens, it didn't hide the bottle.

So:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)------------->(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)

Quote
Theres an inconsistency with red shirt man in Hughes film when he’s holding up his hand (holding the speculative bottle) : His sleeves appear covering his forearm.

Only part of his forearm---------------as the hand is raised, the sleeve slips down a little

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Now, look very closely at the raised forearm in Cronkite:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)

Quote
Not even sure if the quick gesture being made by Red shirt man is a bottle brought to mouth. It could be just a salute to the POTUS.

We catch a glimpse of the bottle, which isn't being gripped right down at its base

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Quote
The white shirt of Red Shirt Man  is extremely white which suggests the thicker long sleeve white shirt that Lovelady was wearing when he was caught on film
On the 6th floor having removed his red plaid flannel shirt.

Do you mean Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

If so, are you seriously suggesting this couldn't be Mr. Oswald's white tshirt?

And is the white tshirt on the man standing behind and up a few steps from Ms. Maddie Reese not white enough for Mr. Lovelady's tshirt?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/d1g5rK9v/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

As for the sixth floor footage, what "long sleeve white shirt" on Mr. Lovelady? You are confusing something in the background for Mr. Lovelady's right arm. Watch what happens when Mr. Lovelady turns:

(https://i.postimg.cc/wx2KSXpV/Lovelady-or-Dougherty.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 09:58:26 AM
Friends, this really isn't complicated.

Those who wish to claim that this is Mr. Lovelady in Hughes-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

------------have literally nowhere left to go at this stage.

They would need to get 'Mr. Lovelady' from the Hughes position over to the Lovelady position in Bell, behind and up a few steps from Ms. Maddie Reese--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1g5rK9v/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg)

---------------in just a couple of seconds (=the time difference between end of Hughes clip & start of Bell clip).

That would mean that the very instant Hughes stops filming, 'Mr. Lovelady' performs an athletically urgent hop, skip and jump up to the Lovelady-in-Bell spot.

But not even that ridiculous scenario is open to the Lovelady=ReddishShirtManInHughes supporters. Because these Bell and Towner clips are synced (thanks to the brilliant work of Mr. Chris Davidson):

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx4mNCfj/Bell-Towner.gif)

And a closer look at Towner (again, thanks to Mr. Davidson!) shows us the devastating fact:

Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is still standing there, just behind the black man at the bottom of the steps

(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Towner.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mk3XQhzL/Towner-red-shirt.jpg)

Checkmate.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 02:38:55 PM
Mr. Lovelady cannot be seen in Hughes, as he is blocked from view by the girl on the pedestal. However, Hughes does show a figure in blue standing way back in the entranceway.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wTZ36s6W/Lovelady-in-Hughes-frame-0020-blue.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

When we crosscheck this with Mr. Lovelady as seen from Bell's POV a couple seconds later, we see just what we'd expect to see behind and just to Mr. Lovelady's right (=our left): some blue---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvY1pwYN/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson-frame-0008-blue.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 03:04:24 PM
So!

Two key things that for nearly six decades prevented Mr. Oswald's alibi from being firmly established:

1. The fact that Mr. Oswald's own claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" was suppressed and not known to researchers (until 2019!):

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzS25RNB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

2. The fact that both men on the left here-----------------Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald and Mr. Roy Edward Lewis------------------were all along mistakenly identified as Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady and Mr. Carl Edward Jones:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Given that Mr. Oswald, standing in the entranceway with a Coke bottle in his hand, is rather unlikely to have shot Pres. Kennedy, the only meaningful LHO question now becomes:

Was Mr. Oswald knowingly involved in the assassination plot?

Decent and honest researchers can disagree on that question.

As for the Warren Gullibles, they have spent years of their lives chasing Mr. Oswald's ghost up on six-------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1yStWVJ/Hughes-window-SN.jpg)

Imagine wasting all that time and energy defending a hoax! Truly, Oswald Derangement Syndrome is a pitiable condition..............

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 03:12:06 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXp2hRD8/Frazier-pointing.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 15, 2023, 04:04:15 PM
So!

Two key things that for nearly six decades prevented Mr. Oswald's alibi from being firmly established:

1. The fact that Mr. Oswald's own claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" was suppressed and not known to researchers (until 2019!):

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzS25RNB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

2. The fact that both men on the left here-----------------Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald and Mr. Roy Edward Lewis------------------were all along mistakenly identified as Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady and Mr. Carl Edward Jones:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Given that Mr. Oswald, standing in the entranceway with a Coke bottle in his hand, is rather unlikely to have shot Pres. Kennedy, the only meaningful LHO question now becomes:

Was Mr. Oswald knowingly involved in the assassination plot?

Decent and honest researchers can disagree on that question.

As for the Warren Gullibles, they have spent years of their lives chasing Mr. Oswald's ghost up on six-------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1yStWVJ/Hughes-window-SN.jpg)

Imagine wasting all that time and energy defending a hoax! Truly, Oswald Derangement Syndrome is a pitiable condition..............

 Thumb1:

Oswald himself admitted to being in the building.  We don't even have to play the contrarian defense attorney game on that one (i.e. how do we know the DPD wasn't lying about what he said?) because he answered the question on camera in response to a question from the press.  Only someone touched in the head can believe they can make heads or tails of those fuzzy pictures.  And none of Oswald's co-workers ever indicated that he was on the street with them.  This is tin foil Bigfoot nonsense.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 15, 2023, 04:15:44 PM
Oswald himself admitting to being in the building.  We don't even have to play the contrarian defense attorney game on that one (i.e. how do we know the DPD wasn't lying about what he said?) because he answered the question on camera in response to a question from the press.  Only someone touched in the head can believe they can make heads or tails of those fuzzy pictures.  And none of Oswald's co-workers ever indicated that he was on the street with them.  This is tin foil Bigfoot nonsense.

Oswald himself admitting to being in the building.

I know that Oswald said to reporters he worked in the building, but where and when exactly did he say he was in the building at the time of the shooting?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 15, 2023, 04:24:58 PM
Oswald himself admitting to being in the building.

I know that Oswald said to reporters he worked in the building, but where and when exactly did he say he was in the building at the time of the shooting?

He was specifically asked if he was in the building at the time of the shooting.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 15, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
He was specifically asked if he was in the building at the time of the shooting.


No he wasn't.

Oswald: I work in that building
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir

What else was he going to say?

It doesn't get anymore vague than this, yet to Richard it's an admission that he was in the building during the shooting. Hilarious!

To more reasonable people it's obvious that Oswald simply confirmed that he worked at the TSBD and that he was there when the shooting took place.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 15, 2023, 06:13:34 PM
Ok, I’m on board with Mr.Fords latest scenario with exception of conspirators pasting image of Jones over Lewis to hide the bottle , which it does not really do imo.

Im not sure they did anything to the Cronkite version because at that point in time they probably were not yet aware of the significance of the bottle in the hand. It may be the Cronkite news show display that case guy someone’s attention.

It’s definitely a different picture later as the arm is covered up with texture pattern of Lovelady and the bottle had disappeared , nothing but Lovelady white shirt in full.

I think the main selling point here is the impossibility of the red blotches in Hughes all belonging to just one person because how far apart they are.

There’s only 2 possibilities to explain the red blotches in Hughes so far apart.

1. There were 2 persons wearing reddish shirts in proximity to each other

2. There was only 1 person with reddish shirt and the anomaly is caused by motion blur or some other phenomenon caused by the camera itself.

If 1 is the reason, then what other person out there would have a reddish shirt that would register approx same red tone and also what person would be in proximity to Lovelady so as to be captured in the Hughes (thru the tree foliage)?

Since I’m no expert on cameras of this 1963 era and if they had motion blur effects , some one else may be able to offer some more detailed explanation for no.2

Also, it would be nice if some kind of high tech computer imaging analysis program can determine the probability of the reddish shirt to be Loveladys plaid red shirt with black squares or if the shirt is more probable to be solid reddish texture like Oswald’s shirt.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 08:16:19 PM
No he wasn't.

Oswald: I work in that building
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir

What else was he going to say?

It doesn't get anymore vague than this, yet to Richard it's an admission that he was in the building during the shooting. Hilarious!

To more reasonable people it's obvious that Oswald simply confirmed that he worked at the TSBD and that he was there when the shooting took place.

Mr. Oswald considered the enclosed entranceway to be part of the building (which it of course was)-------------hence he was in the building (though not inside) at the time of the shooting.

We know from Agent Hosty's 11/22 draft interrogation report that Mr. Oswald said he went "outside to watch P. Parade."

In the building YET outside= contradiction in terms, surely? Yes----------------for everywhere EXCEPT the front entranceway

So-------------------Mr. Smith can bring out this old chestnut as many times as he likes, it still won't get him anywhere. Perhaps he might more profitably turn his attention instead to the problem of explaining how Reddish-Shirted Man in Hughes can possibly be Mr. Lovelady? If he actually gets anywhere (miracles do happen), then I'll be so astonished by his feat I might just be inspired to notify his favorite newspaper, the New York Times. Now that would be a story!

'Do you remember where you were when you heard that Mr. Richard Smith had made a meaningful contribution to the JFK assassination debate?'

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 08:21:06 PM
Ok, I’m on board with Mr.Fords latest scenario with exception of conspirators pasting image of Jones over Lewis to hide the bottle , which it does not really do imo.

To hide where the bottle crosses Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt.

The addition of Mr. Jones' face from Cronkite Altgens to Canonical Altgens achieves just that:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8yLdb4/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)------------->(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 09:29:33 PM
I think the main selling point here is the impossibility of the red blotches in Hughes all belonging to just one person because how far apart they are.

Do you mean in Bell, Mr. Mason?

Not sure I see any problem here. Look at the width of Ms. Maddie Reese (in white), and compare Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1g5rK9v/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 15, 2023, 09:34:41 PM
No he wasn't.

Oswald: I work in that building
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir

What else was he going to say?

It doesn't get anymore vague than this, yet to Richard it's an admission that he was in the building during the shooting. Hilarious!

To more reasonable people it's obvious that Oswald simply confirmed that he worked at the TSBD and that he was there when the shooting took place.

Vague?  HA HA HA HA.  You literally have the question and answer on film.  You don't even need the time machine.  He was specifically asked if he was in the building AT THE TIME.  And Oswald responds "Yes."   What do you mean "what else was he going to say"?  How about "no" if that was the case.  If he was out on the street AT THE TIME, as this endless thread has suggested, then a perfect opportunity to say so.  Unreal.

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “I work in that building.”

REPORTER — “Were you in the building at the time?”

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.”
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 09:43:41 PM
Vague?  HA HA HA HA.  You literally have the question and answer on film.  You don't even need the time machine.  He was specifically asked if he was in the building AT THE TIME.  And Oswald responds "Yes."   What do you mean "what else was he going to say"?  How about "no" if that was the case.  If he was out on the street AT THE TIME, as this endless thread has suggested, then a perfect opportunity to say so.  Unreal.

And there we have it, straight from the Warren Gullible's own mouth: Mr. Oswald's answer makes no sense if he was out on the street at the time.

There'll be no argument from me on that point!

Poor Mr. Smith has of course just blown up his own argument. He thinks---------he actually thinks!---------the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes is out on the street.

Why does poor Mr. Smith think this? Because he thinks---------he actually thinks!----------the enclosed front entrance belongs to the street rather than to the building!

No wonder he's lost!

:D :D :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 15, 2023, 09:55:05 PM
Vague?  HA HA HA HA.  You literally have the question and answer on film.  You don't even need the time machine.  He was specifically asked if he was in the building AT THE TIME.  And Oswald responds "Yes."   What do you mean "what else was he going to say"?  How about "no" if that was the case.  If he was out on the street AT THE TIME, as this endless thread has suggested, then a perfect opportunity to say so.  Unreal.

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “I work in that building.”

REPORTER — “Were you in the building at the time?”

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.”

At what time?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 15, 2023, 10:51:07 PM
In that Townes film gif, the red blob that is  approx at the west side entrance wall where red shirt man is in Hughes and Bell film, seems to move right and down.

Meanwhile at the same time imo, there is another stationary portion of red near the center handrail but you can’t quite make out a figure. That’s about where Lovelady would be if he’s next to Sarah Stanton ( she being on the east side of the handrail.)

This movement occurring in Townes film gif would be consistent with Oswald moving to the point where the shadow is added to Lovelady in Wiegman film.

What I’m saying about the improbability of all the red stretched across horizontally in the BELL gif, which is the one that Chris posted earlier is that it may be proof of 2 persons wearing reddish shirts and if so the only other person who had a reddish shirt of hue which is  a red close to Loveladys red shirt , would have to be Oswald.

Roy Lewis  jacket that Jerry Organ posted earlier ,  appears to me to be too dark a hue of red to be matching Lovelady.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 15, 2023, 11:21:10 PM
At what time?

LOL. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 15, 2023, 11:30:44 PM
And there we have it, straight from the Warren Gullible's own mouth: Mr. Oswald's answer makes no sense if he was out on the street at the time.

There'll be no argument from me on that point!

Poor Mr. Smith has of course just blown up his own argument. He thinks---------he actually thinks!---------the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes is out on the street.

Why does poor Mr. Smith think this? Because he thinks---------he actually thinks!----------the enclosed front entrance belongs to the street rather than to the building!

No wonder he's lost!

:D :D :D

Oswald was asked if he was in the building at the time.  He responded yes.   There is no ambiguity about this.  Oswald puts himself "in the building".  Not standing outside.  Don't you think under the circumstances if Oswald had been standing outside in the presence of his coworkers - thus providing him with an airtight alibi for murder - that he would be screaming that to anyone who would listen?  Oswald knew that no one could place him outside the building because he was on the 6th floor shooting the president "at that time."  He tried to pawn off his presence in the building as the result of "working there."  Sound familiar?  He didn't work outside the building.  That was the best he could do since he was guilty and had no other option. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 11:38:21 PM
In that Townes film gif, the red blob that is  approx at the west side entrance wall where red shirt man is in Hughes and Bell film, seems to move right and down.

Mr. Mason, I honestly don't see any movement by Reddish-Shirt-Man in this spot in Towner. He appears quite stationary. I think you may be confusing him with the flapping object, which is moving up and down?--------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx4mNCfj/Bell-Towner.gif)(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Towner.gif)


Quote
Meanwhile at the same time imo, there is another stationary portion of red near the center handrail but you can’t quite make out a figure. That’s about where Lovelady would be if he’s next to Sarah Stanton ( she being on the east side of the handrail.)

It is beyond dispute that some frames were removed from Towner (see splice between 2 and 3 in Mr. Davidson's gif below). I think they also threw a Wiegman-like shadow down Mr. Lovelady (only over ALL of him this time). They simply couldn't let folks see ANY of Mr. Lovelady's shirt in that spot at this time.

A while back, during a debate about the ridiculous artificial Wiegman shadow, Mr. Davidson noticed the curious fall of darkness at the Lovelady spot in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jSF7wtcw/Towner-Shadow.gif)

Note what's just right of Mr. Davidson's arrow: someone in blue. Bell shows Mr. Lovelady's shirt, with blue on both sides

If we didn't have Bell, we wouldn't know that Mr. Lovelady is actually in that area. But Bell makes a nonsense of what we're seeing in Towner. This is because it shows Mr. Lovelady behind and up a few steps from Ms. Maddie Reese at the exact same time as the Towner frames.

Another way of saying this is that Bell shows us unmistakeably exactly what has been obscured in Towner: Mr. Lovelady's shirt.

However! As you perceptively note, some red certainly does bleed through-----------:

(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Towner.gif)

So the disappearing of Mr. Lovelady from Towner is not 100% successful (always trickier with color).

Quote
Roy Lewis  jacket that Jerry Organ posted earlier ,  appears to me to be too dark a hue of red to be matching Lovelady.

Yes, it's a complete non-starter, and a sign of real Warren Gullible panic.

What's amusing is how, back in the days of the Oswald-Not-Lovelady-Is-Altgens-Doorwayman nonsense, the Warren Gullibles were the ones most loudly joining others in pointing out that Mr. Lovelady's distinctive shirt could be seen through the foliage in Bell, and how only a crazy person could doubt that that was Mr. Lovelady. And--------------------they were 100% right to do so. Now that things have changed, they're trying to desperately walk back that statement of the perfectly obvious: "Only to a kook would this be anybody but Lovelady"!

When one finds oneself having to take an Anyone-But-Lovelady position on what Bell is showing, one really needs to ask oneself the hard question: Maybe I need a new hobby?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 11:48:07 PM
Oswald was asked if he was in the building at the time.  He responded yes.   There is no ambiguity about this.  Oswald puts himself "in the building".  Not standing outside.

What happened to "out on the street", Mr. Smith?  :D :D :D 

Quote
Don't you think under the circumstances if Oswald had been standing outside in the presence of his coworkers - thus providing him with an airtight alibi for murder - that he would be screaming that to anyone who would listen?

Not if Captain Fritz has told him they accept that he was in the front entranceway (i.e. not the shooter) but that he is on the hook for complicity. Mr. Oswald doesn't realise the world is being told he shot Pres. Kennedy from the sixth floor. Therefore he feels no need to shout his alibi.

Of course, you have had all this explained to you 100+ times before, Mr. Smith. So either you're just playing dumb, or you're------------well, you work it out (if you can..........).

Speaking of working it out, do let us know when you feel brave enough to quit deflecting and start refuting my analysis of Hughes/Bell/Towner.

Here, I'll help you get going:

I, Richard Smith, can explain how Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Billy Lovelady. The explanation is as follows:............................................

Good luck!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 15, 2023, 11:59:38 PM
Warren Gullibles right now--------------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xj7Nd3r/leslie-nielsen-nothing-to-see-here.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 16, 2023, 12:26:34 AM
I wonder if the critics even thought that there might be some variation in color between two different camera systems and processing methods.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/be/DCkZwpU8_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 12:29:47 AM
I wonder if the critics even thought that there might be some variation in color between two different camera systems and processing methods.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/be/DCkZwpU8_o.jpg)

Lol, I'll play.

For starters: Where do you believe Mr. Lewis is standing in Bell?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 01:07:44 AM
I wonder if the critics even thought that there might be some variation in color between two different camera systems and processing methods.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/be/DCkZwpU8_o.jpg)

Friends, while we patiently await Mr. Organ's response as to his current understanding of Mr. Lewis' exact whereabouts at the time of Bell, let us note that he has chosen to process a Bell frame that doesn't show the white tshirt.

Now I wonder what might be the reason for this curious choice he has made?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

If only the shirt under Mr. Lewis' cardigan weren't so darn................... BLUE!

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/be/DCkZwpU8_o.jpg)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 16, 2023, 01:21:14 AM
Friends, while we patiently await Mr. Organ's response as to his current understanding of Mr. Lewis' exact whereabouts at the time of Bell, let us note that he has chosen to process a Bell frame that doesn't show the white tshirt.

Now I wonder what might be the reason for this curious choice he has made?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

If only the shirt under Mr. Lewis' cardigan weren't so darn................... BLUE!

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/be/DCkZwpU8_o.jpg)

 :D

You really think I'm suggesting where Lewis is in the Willis Photo is where he's at in the Bell film? You can't be that thick.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 01:30:59 AM
You really think I'm suggesting where Lewis is in the Willis Photo is where he's at in the Bell film? You can't be that thick.

Nice dodge, Mr. Organ!  Thumb1:

I'll ask again: where in the doorway do you believe Mr.-Lewis-in-Bell is?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 16, 2023, 01:53:52 AM
LOL.

So, no answer

How expected !
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 01:57:10 AM
Friends, it's really really strange, and most upsetting, but no matter what I do with the Willis photo, I just can't make Mr. Lewis' shirt appear.......... white.

(https://i.postimg.cc/59C7tfc6/Organ-Lewis-in-Willis.jpg)

You know, like the way it is showing up in Bell, with blue to its left and right:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

If only this could be achieved, then all this mad conspiracy-kook talk about Mr. Lovelady's shirt being visible in Bell could be put to bed. I mean, we KNOW at a deep metaphysical level that this has to be Mr. Lewis in Bell, but Mr. Lewis------------heaven forgive him-------------has given grist to the kook mill by putting on the wrong darn shirt.

Now I'd dearly like to help Mr. Organ out by using the Soopah-Doopah-Sun-Analysis he has so ingeniously used in the past to magic Mr. Oswald's brown arrest shirt into the off-white shirt seen by SN witnesses, but Mr. Lewis in Willis is already in the bright sun, so it's just a really tough assignment bleaching that pesky blue of his away. Like, none of the filters or other magic tricks seem to be working...........

Why, it's enough to make a man tear out his hair!!!  :'(

The very best I've been able to come up with is this button:

(https://i.postimg.cc/15NfTYqx/Organ-Lewis-button.jpg)

What with the nuclear blast from the sun, and the specific camera system and processing method with the Bell film, this button's unmistakeable whiteness could be blazing forth in Bell, giving kooks who don't understand camera systems and processing methods the erroneous impression that this is in fact Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt........

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg)

Yes. That must be it.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 16, 2023, 01:57:39 AM
Oswald was asked if he was in the building at the time.  He responded yes.   There is no ambiguity about this.  Oswald puts himself "in the building".  Not standing outside.  Don't you think under the circumstances if Oswald had been standing outside in the presence of his coworkers - thus providing him with an airtight alibi for murder - that he would be screaming that to anyone who would listen?  Oswald knew that no one could place him outside the building because he was on the 6th floor shooting the president "at that time."  He tried to pawn off his presence in the building as the result of "working there."  Sound familiar?  He didn't work outside the building.  That was the best he could do since he was guilty and had no other option.

Oswald knew that no one could place him outside the building because he was on the 6th floor shooting the president "at that time." 

Another claim for which Richard can not produce a shred of evidence.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 02:23:33 AM
I want to further help Mr. Organ by urging folks reading to pay NO attention to the BLACK man in BLUE just in front of Reddish-Shirted Man in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

At a merely cognitive level we can see that this must be Mr. Roy Edward Lewis. But at a deep metaphysical level we know it cannot be him, for he is at this time behind and up a few steps from Ms. Maddie Reese, wearing a powerful white button. For people to start trusting their cognitive faculties, without understanding either metaphysics or camera systems and processing methods, would be a danger to democracy itself

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 02:34:15 AM
I want to further help Mr. Organ by urging folks reading to pay NO attention to the BLACK man in BLUE just in front of Reddish-Shirted Man in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

At a merely cognitive level we can see that this must be Mr. Roy Edward Lewis. But at a deep metaphysical level we know it cannot be him, for he is at this time behind and up a few steps from Ms. Maddie Reese, wearing a powerful white button. For people to start trusting their cognitive faculties, without understanding either metaphysics or camera systems and processing methods, would be a danger to democracy itself

 Thumb1:

Given the variety of camera systems and processing methods, not to mention the stupendous bleaching effects of the sun, not to mention our post-cognitive metaphysical intuitions, I'd like to help Mr. Organ out further by offering an alternative solution.

1. The reason this looks just like Mr. Lovelady's shirt/tshirt is that it is in fact Mr. Lovelady's shirt/tshirt. (I know, wild, huh?)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

2. Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is neither Mr. Lovelady nor Mr. Oswald. He is Mr. Roy Edward Lewis:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yjdyq5KP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

The man in front of him is wearing a balaclava.

This is obviously a much more satisfactory solution than the identification of Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes as a slender white male wearing a reddish shirt over a white tshirt.

**

Take your pick, Mr. Organ. And---------------you're welcome!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 04:03:45 AM
Friends, let's keep this simple.

The case against Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald as the sixth floor shooter now requires the preposterous scenario that Mr. Roy Edward Lewis rather than Mr. Billy Lovelady is responsible for the upper garments we see here in Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2ZV3bbr/Organ-Lewis-crop-alone.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/tgQzMMC7/Lovelady-1971-crop.jpg)


Another way of saying this is that the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth floor shooter has just completely collapsed.

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 16, 2023, 05:58:18 AM
Friends, let's keep this simple.

Friends, let's keep this simple stupid.

Quote
The case against Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald as the sixth floor shooter now requires the preposterous scenario that Mr. Roy Edward Lewis rather than Mr. Billy Lovelady is responsible for the upper garments we see here in Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2ZV3bbr/Organ-Lewis-crop-alone.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/tgQzMMC7/Lovelady-1971-crop.jpg)


Another way of saying this is that the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth floor shooter has just completely collapsed.

 Thumb1:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/001~1.jpg)  (https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)

I thought the shirt colors were supposed to match.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)  (https://images2.imgbox.com/5c/03/GsDsakKM_o.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 09:46:01 AM
I thought the shirt colors were supposed to match.

 :D

Mr. Organ, are you actually telling us with a straight face that you rule out this in Bell as Mr. Lovelady's shirt because you're not seeing enough plaid---------

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

---------but that you're seeing enough plaid here in Hughes to confidently identify this man as Mr. Lovelady?

(https://i.postimg.cc/cC17jrdm/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Please tell me that isn't the very best you've got here.........

 :-X

Quote
(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)  (https://images2.imgbox.com/5c/03/GsDsakKM_o.gif)

Thanks for comparing one non-foliage element in the background (Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt) with another (the raised forearm of Ms. Maddie Reese):

(https://i.postimg.cc/63BcnH4T/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

But please tell me you haven't just confused the white of Ms. Reese's forearm with foliage. Because that would be keeping things too stupid for words................

 :-X
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 09:52:24 AM
Nice dodge, Mr. Organ!  Thumb1:

I'll ask again: where in the doorway do you believe Mr.-Lewis-in-Bell is?

Bumped for Mr. Organ!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 11:08:22 AM
Friends, let's continue to keep this simple.

The case against Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald as the sixth floor shooter now requires the preposterous double scenario:

a) that Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt, seen peeking out from behind foliage in Bell, is not Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt but in fact foliage:

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

b) that Mr. Lovelady's shirt, seen at a distance in Bell, cannot be Mr. Lovelady's shirt because it shows up so predominantly red

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/3JBYDH3m/Lovelady-in-Martin-frame-0046-distance-small.jpg)

Another way of saying this is that the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth floor shooter really has just completely collapsed.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 16, 2023, 01:16:10 PM
So, no answer

How expected !

You know the answer.  It is in in the film clip.  This is just contrarian rabbit hole nonsense.  I'll play along, though. Oswald was asked if he shot the president.  He responds that he works in the building.  Then he is asked if he was in the building "at the time." The only "time" being referenced is the shooting.  Oswald responds "naturally" and "yes, sir."  What other "time" would the press be asking him about being in the building under the circumstances?  The only thing they knew about him was that he had been arrested in connection with the crime.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2023, 02:38:48 PM
So, no answer

How expected !

"Richard" is caught making assumptions yet again.  "At the time" means what "Richard" wants it to mean. No more, no less.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2023, 02:44:51 PM
You know the answer.  It is in in the film clip.  This is just contrarian rabbit hole nonsense.  I'll play along, though. Oswald was asked if he shot the president.  He responds that he works in the building.

 BS:, "Richard".  He's responding to questions asked by somebody else.  "I work in the building" is not an answer to "did you shoot the president?".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 16, 2023, 02:56:57 PM
What other time would the press be asking Oswald about under the circumstances when they asked him if he was in the building "at the time" while also shouting questions asking if he shot the president?  They knew only one thing about him.  He was the suspect in the assassination.  There is no "assumption" about what is being asked or his answer which is on film.  Unreal kookery.  These are the self-proclaimed "unbiased" arbiters who have no agenda.  This is just more rabbit hole nonsense.  Like when Marina makes dozens of references to the "rifle" or questions about the "rifle" but in one instance refers to seeing the "wooden stock" of "the rifle."  Magically, the object becomes just something made of "wood" in the contrarian fantasy. Which, of course, a rifle is made of.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 03:13:56 PM
What other time would the press be asking Oswald about under the circumstances when they asked him if he was in the building "at the time" while also shouting questions asking if he shot the president?  They knew only one thing about him.  He was the suspect in the assassination.  There is no "assumption" about what is being asked or his answer which is on film.  Unreal kookery.  These are the self-proclaimed "unbiased" arbiters who have no agenda.  This is just more rabbit hole nonsense.  Like when Marina makes dozens of references to the "rifle" or questions about the "rifle" but in one instance refers to seeing the "wooden stock" of "the rifle."  Magically, the object becomes just something made of "wood" in the contrarian fantasy. Which, of course, a rifle is made of.

'I still can't explain how Mr. Redshirt in Hughes can be Billy Lovelady, so I'm going to wave my hands around some more'

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 16, 2023, 03:28:16 PM
'I still can't explain how Mr. Redshirt in Hughes can be Billy Lovelady, so I'm going to wave my hands around some more'

 :D

Take it up with Oswald.  He confirmed he was in the building "at the time."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 03:56:08 PM
Friends, it is to laugh. The poor Warren Gullibles are having to scramble together their bewildered thoughts about this man whom they are now suddenly having to call "Anybody-But-Lovelady"------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1j5h9bv/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

But while they hunker down in their foxhole, let those of us who are unafraid of the truth go back to the far from tangential question of the black man just in front of Redshirt Man (a.k.a. Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald) in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Question!

Why is what we know to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones' cream-colored clothing showing up blue in Hughes?

(https://i.postimg.cc/259ByDyf/Roy-Edward-Jones-crop.jpg)

Answer!

It's showing up blue because it is blue, because he's not Mr. Carl Edward Jones, because he's Mr. Roy Edward Lewis---------with cardigan off!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 04:03:19 PM
Take it up with Oswald.  He confirmed he was in the building "at the time."

~Grin~

The enclosed front entranceway was part of the building. As you have recently learned yourself (!), it was not "out on the street". Hence Mr. Oswald was not out on the street at the time, nor anywhere else at the time--------------no, he was in the building, which was the building where he worked.

How it must kill you that the reporter didn't ask Mr. Oswald, "Were you inside the building at the time?"

Actually I wish he had asked that too, as it would have saved us all a lot of time. Thankfully, however, we found out in 2019 that Mr. Oswald told Captain Fritz where he was at the time:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT12MN7Q/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg)

Now! Let's try again, shall we?

I, Richard Smith, can explain how Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Billy Lovelady. The explanation is as follows:............................................

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 04:30:54 PM
Now!

Notice how ALL the dots of bright foliage move in the same direction simultaneously:

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

The non-foliage white elements in the background, by contrast, remain stable. And Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt is one of those elements. Just like, say, part of Ms. Maddie Reese's right forearm, or bits of the entrance's west white column, it peeks out from behind the moving foliage.

I feel desperately sorry for anyone who has to defend the assertion that this is NOT Mr. Billy Lovelady!

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)

What a ghastly corner they've painted themselves into!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 05:03:54 PM
..................the far from tangential question of the black man just in front of Redshirt Man (a.k.a. Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald) in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Friends, we have already seen how, in March '64, Mr. Carl Edward Jones tells FBI he was sitting on the steps at the time of the assassination.

But what does Mr. Roy Edward Lewis tell FBI about where he was?

"I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building"

Unless he means he stood behind the glass front door, this is actually a pretty perfect description of the black man dressed in blue in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2023, 06:35:02 PM
“Richard” sure likes to twist things to fit his kooky agenda. Marina saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle. Six weeks earlier. So her “references” to a rifle were based on that assumption. Learn the difference between assumption and “confirmation”. Asking “what other time would they be talking about” doesn’t tell us a thing about what time they were talking about. We can’t hear the question. Learn the difference between fact and wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 06:40:41 PM
Friends, we have already seen how, in March '64, Mr. Carl Edward Jones tells FBI he was sitting on the steps at the time of the assassination.

But what does Mr. Roy Edward Lewis tell FBI about where he was?

"I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building"

Unless he means he stood behind the glass front door, this is actually a pretty perfect description of the black man dressed in blue in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:

Yep!  Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/N0z6PQbC/Roy-Edward-Lewis-in-Willis-Wiegman.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 06:56:41 PM
So!

Here's where the poor Warren Gullibles are now at, folks.

In order to make Redshirt Man in Hughes be Mr. Billy Lovelady-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

------------they have to make this other white-tshirted man in Bell------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1j5h9bv/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

------------be this blue-shirted man--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/N0z6PQbC/Roy-Edward-Lewis-in-Willis-Wiegman.jpg)

------------whose name is Mr. Roy Edward Lewis and who just so happens to be standing just below Redshirt Man--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

'I got the Warren Gullible BLUES.................'

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 08:01:38 PM
WHERE WAS LHO?

THIRD TIME LUCKY!
  Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkDvMvTG/Altgens-Prayer.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/pdmkfPFC/tick.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 16, 2023, 10:46:41 PM
Friends, let us contemplate the calamity that has, in the preceding few pages of this thread, hit the Warren Gullibles' central article of faith: that Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Pres. Kennedy from the sixth floor.

Thanks in no small part to the brilliant work of Mr. Chris Davidson, I have been able to prove beyond any doubt that these two figures simply cannot be the same man:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

Now both the Hughes film and the Bell film are in COLOR. Unlike Wiegman & Darnell.

So what? Big what!

This crucial fact means that we KNOW that we have TWO men wearing a red shirt over a white tshirt standing in different places in the western half of the Depository doorway at the time of the motorcade.

Only one of these men can be Mr. Billy Lovelady. Logically, he can only be EITHER Redshirt Man in Hughes or Redshirt Man in Bell.

But Redshirt Man in Bell is ALREADY standing in the area we are about to see Mr. Lovelady in just a few seconds later (Altgens/Wiegman): behind and up a few steps from Ms. Maddie Reese. Therefore it makes no sense whatsoever NOT to identify Redshirt Man in Bell as Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

Even if, however, he is NOT Mr. Lovelady, then he can only be some other man in a red shirt over a white tshirt.

But we run with the much more realistic option: Redshirt Man in Bell is Mr. Lovelady.

OK. This leaves us with one 'unidentified' male in a red shirt over a white tshirt, standing just over Mr. Roy Edward Lewis in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

But who could he be?

The answer couldn't be more obvious: he's a slender white male employee who wore a reddish shirt to work that day, which he wore over a white tshirt.

Now, if we had no SPARE employee fitting that description, we would be stumped by this Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes. Thankfully, however, we DO have a SPARE employee fitting that description. Perfectly. And what is more, he is an employee who claimed to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade!

Now this man could have told his interrogators he was just wearing a tshirt, or a blue or green or gray or black shirt, or a jacket, or any manner of upper garment. But no: he was quite specific: a reddish shirt. He even told his interrogators where they could find this shirt.

If he was lying, then he has just scored the most amazing fluke in history: because, lo and behold, an unidentified man perfectly matching his own description is standing there in the doorway--------------IN GLORIOUS COLOR!

By way of bonus, the man in Hughes appears to be drinking from a bottle-----------and the employee who already ticks all the boxes just so happened to have said he purchased a Coke in the second-floor lunchroom shortly before the P. Parade.

But maybe a doubt lingers in the Warren Critic's mind...... 'Okay,' s/he argues, 'but it's still possible, at least theoretically, that this Redshirt Man in Hughes is Mr. Lovelady, and the Redshirt Man in Bell is the employee who told his interrogators he went outside to watch the P. Parade.'

What might resolve this final doubt of this thoughtful Warren Critic? This:

Mr. Lovelady, on an upper step, is identifiably visible in the Wiegman film, whereas the face (indeed the entire PRESENCE) of our white man standing on a lower step has been eliminated by the application of a provably artificial 'shadow' down the right side of Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtZpCpBZ/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive2-arnold.jpg)

Those who added this ridiculous impossible shadow have told us two things:
a) where Red Shirt Man in Hughes must be at this moment
b) who Red Shirt Man in Hughes is: the red-shirt-and-white-tshirt-wearing, white employee who is NOT Mr. Lovelady. The other man. The employee the 'investigators' don't want you to know was there. The one who was wearing THIS shirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHth73wt/LHO-shirt-speer.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

(This part of the) Case Closed!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 17, 2023, 02:26:36 AM
Why is what we know to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones' cream-colored clothing showing up blue in Hughes?

(https://i.postimg.cc/259ByDyf/Roy-Edward-Jones-crop.jpg)

Answer!

It's showing up blue because it is blue, because he's not Mr. Carl Edward Jones, because he's Mr. Roy Edward Lewis---------with cardigan off!

This stuff is right up there with Greer-Shot-Kennedy and Ralph Cin-que's Doorman-is-Oswald/Ruby-Didn't-Shoot Oswald.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

Looks like Ford got hold of a blue-cast GIF animation. Sometimes the limited GIF color-table will assign a false color to a certain color-range. Such may be the case with Jones' shirt. His pants is at-times bluish and grayish. As well, white objects in the distance that don't directly reflect light towards the camera can exhibit bluish tones (look at the Depository's bluish columns and tile-panel).

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image60.jpg)

This image was published in 1967 and the Jones outfit is not shown as bluish.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_137-tile.jpg)

Here are better scans of the Hughes frame (with no severe limitation on color as with GIFs) and the Jones outfit is not bluish.

You can see that Jones' outfit was in the light-violet range and slightly-darker than white.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a6/be/DCkZwpU8_o.jpg)

A GIF animation assigning limited color could perceive that violet-color as bluish.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_16832.jpg)

Carl Edward Jones is labelled "G" in this Altgens crop.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 10:08:49 AM
This stuff is right up there with Greer-Shot-Kennedy and Ralph Cin-que's Doorman-is-Oswald/Ruby-Didn't-Shoot Oswald.

~Grin~

The only thing Cin-quesque here, Mr. Organ, is your claim that the man in Bell is the guy on the left rather than the guy on the right.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2ZV3bbr/Organ-Lewis-crop-alone.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/tgQzMMC7/Lovelady-1971-crop.jpg)

Sheesh, even you must be embarrassed pushing such a kooky claim.

You know full well-----------at the latest since I pointed out your disastrous confusion of Ms. Maddie Reese's forearm for foliage (!)------------that Bell is showing Mr. Lovelady in the same area in which he is about to show up in Altgens & Wiegman: behind and up a few steps from Ms. Reese. This fact fills you with panic. Under ANY other circumstances you would not hesitate to identify this as Mr. Lovelady. But now here you are, desperately trying to keep Mr. Oswald off the steps.

Entertaining!  Thumb1:

Quote
Here are better scans of the Hughes frame (with no severe limitation on color as with GIFs) and the Jones outfit is not bluish.

Except---------------it is. Try zooming in!

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4rfVWkG/Hughes-scan-Lewis.jpg)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 11:55:05 AM
Well!

In the March 1964 FBI employee statements, every single person has to state whether or not they saw Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Every single person but one, that is. FBI suddenly have no interest in the testimony of this one employee's EYES.

And that single exception to the rule, wouldn't you know, is Mr. Roy Edward Lewis.

Look how his statement is worded:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zB5N5Pkm/Roy-Lewis-3-18-64.jpg)

"by myself"/"not with me"

Both of these statements are formulae that tell a truth and an untruth:

---------Yes, Mr. Lewis was by himself down there at the bottom of the steps, but he was in a place with lots of other people in it
---------No, Mr. Lewis was not standing there together with/in the company of Mr. Oswald, but they were both there, and Mr. Lewis knows it

This same Mr. Lewis, bear in mind, recently stated that he couldn't swear to it that he saw Mr. Oswald on those steps at the time of the assassination. This of course also means that he is not willing to swear to it that he didn't see Mr. Oswald there. And that's what the March 64 FBI document shows: Mr. Lewis' refusal to swear on the record that he did not SEE Mr. Oswald.

His statements as to his own exact whereabouts have been all over the place, and we now know the reason for that: Mr. Oswald, the man who would be absurdly named as the sixth floor shooter, was standing right behind him at the time!

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 17, 2023, 01:57:29 PM
~Grin~

The enclosed front entranceway was part of the building. As you have recently learned yourself (!), it was not "out on the street". Hence Mr. Oswald was not out on the street at the time, nor anywhere else at the time--------------no, he was in the building, which was the building where he worked.

How it must kill you that the reporter didn't ask Mr. Oswald, "Were you inside the building at the time?"

Actually I wish he had asked that too, as it would have saved us all a lot of time. Thankfully, however, we found out in 2019 that Mr. Oswald told Captain Fritz where he was at the time:



 Thumb1:

The question and Oswald's response are on film. Anyone can watch it for themselves. 

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “I work in that building.”

REPORTER — “Were you in the building at the time?”

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 04:28:13 PM
The question and Oswald's response are on film. Anyone can watch it for themselves. 

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “I work in that building.”

REPORTER — “Were you in the building at the time?”

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.

And Mr. Oswald is on film. Anyone can now see him for themselves and understand how this cannot be Mr. Billy Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

I, Richard Smith, can explain how Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Billy Lovelady. My explanation is as follows:............................................

Over to you, Mr. Smith!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 05:42:55 PM
Yep!  Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsLnCMvL/Roy-Lewis-Wiegman-Hughes-aftermath.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 05:44:36 PM
Nice dodge, Mr. Organ!  Thumb1:

I'll ask again: where in the doorway do you believe Mr.-Lewis-in-Bell is?

Re-bumped for Mr. Organ!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 17, 2023, 05:59:17 PM
Re-bumped for Mr. Organ!  Thumb1:

The answer is ten-or-more pages ago. I'll play the Riddler, like you do: Why can't Mr. Ford remember things posted a few day ago? Retention problem?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 06:46:15 PM
The answer is ten-or-more pages ago. I'll play the Riddler, like you do: Why can't Mr. Ford remember things posted a few day ago? Retention problem?

Apologies, Mr. Organ! I assumed you would have wanted to adjust your original estimated location---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLrntRsM/Organ-redshirt-location.jpg)

--------------in the light of Ms. Maddie Reese's raised right forearm having been identified in Bell.

But no, this is still your estimation. Good to know!  Thumb1:

Is that part of the oval over the lower line your estimation of where the man in the red shirt's head would be?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2zDsSZ0/Organ-redshirt-location-arrow.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 17, 2023, 07:20:26 PM
Apologies, Mr. Organ! I assumed you would have wanted to adjust your original estimated location---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLrntRsM/Organ-redshirt-location.jpg)

--------------in the light of Ms. Maddie Reese's raised right forearm having been identified in Bell.

But no, this is still your estimation. Good to know!  Thumb1:

Is that part of the oval over the lower line your estimation of where the man in the red shirt's head would be?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2zDsSZ0/Organ-redshirt-location-arrow.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Is there something wrong with you?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 07:22:42 PM
Is there something wrong with you?

~Grin~

What does your yellow oval here represent, Mr. Organ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/br7DqPFv/Organ-redshirt-location-oval.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 08:12:08 PM
Friends, Mr. Organ's own lines in these images establish the (to him!) disastrous reality:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2StZwPDT/Organ-redshirt-crop-lines.jpg)

But he has been a very naughty fellow, because he has used a Bell frame that does NOT show Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt.

Let's look at what he doesn't want us to look at, now that his silly 'foliage' idea turned out to be DOA:

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1j5h9bv/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

And let us note the raised forearm of Ms. Maddie Reese:

(https://i.postimg.cc/63BcnH4T/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

And now let us look at Mr. Organ's lines again, noting the relationship in height of Mr. Lovelady's tshirt and Ms. Reese's raised arm in Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2StZwPDT/Organ-redshirt-crop-lines.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/63BcnH4T/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

Notice anything?

That's right. The respective elevations of Redshirt Man & Ms. Reese in Bell are an uncanny match for the respective elevations of Mr. Lovelady & Ms. Reese in the Wiegman frame.

You can be sure that Mr. Organ knows this full well, but he's got a job to do here-----------to defend the official story to the death, and beyond. And this is why he's making an utter fool of himself trying to argue that this white-tshirted man in Bell is not Mr. Lovelady but Mr. Roy Lewis:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2ZV3bbr/Organ-Lewis-crop-alone.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/5Nv5CMVy/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-shirt-tshirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/tgQzMMC7/Lovelady-1971-crop.jpg)

But you never know, maybe this mysteriously placed oval contains some alternative solution with which Mr. Organ will dazzle us with his brilliant analytical skills..............

(https://i.postimg.cc/br7DqPFv/Organ-redshirt-location-oval.jpg)

We wait with bated breath!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 17, 2023, 09:33:58 PM
And Mr. Oswald is on film. Anyone can now see him for themselves and understand how this cannot be Mr. Billy Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

I, Richard Smith, can explain how Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Billy Lovelady. My explanation is as follows:............................................

Over to you, Mr. Smith!

 Thumb1:

Ask any random person if they can see Oswald or anyone in that clip.  Better yet take this to the NY Times and ask if they see Oswald in the clip.   Pack an overnight bag as some men with nets may be called. 


LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “I work in that building.”

REPORTER — “Were you in the building at the time?”

LEE HARVEY OSWALD — “Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.”
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 17, 2023, 10:40:29 PM
Ask any random person if they can see Oswald or anyone in that clip.  Better yet take this to the NY Times and ask if they see Oswald in the clip.   Pack an overnight bag as some men with nets may be called. 

~Grin~

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

I, Richard Smith, can explain how Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Billy Lovelady. My explanation is as follows:............................................

If you're really so confident this is Mr. Lovelady in Hughes, then you should be only too happy to give your explanation. If you keep running away from the challenge, everyone reading can draw their own conclusions!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 17, 2023, 11:43:30 PM
~Grin~

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

I, Richard Smith, can explain how Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is Billy Lovelady. My explanation is as follows:............................................

If you're really so confident this is Mr. Lovelady in Hughes, then you should be only too happy to give your explanation. If you keep running away from the challenge, everyone reading can draw their own conclusions!

 Thumb1:

I know who it isn't based on his own words and the evidence.  Not interested in playing whack-a-mole about every blurry image.  Again, though, if you think that shows Oswald standing outside please rush immediately to the NY Times and show this to them.  It is Pulitzer Prize winning stuff. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 12:07:02 AM
I know who it isn't based on his own words and the evidence.  Not interested in playing whack-a-mole about every blurry image.  Again, though, if you think that shows Oswald standing outside please rush immediately to the NY Times and show this to them.  It is Pulitzer Prize winning stuff.

~Grin~

Thanks for confirming that you can't defend your kooky claim that this is Mr. Lovelady!  Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 12:28:12 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/2StZwPDT/Organ-redshirt-crop-lines.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/63BcnH4T/Bell-Reese-arm.gif)

Notice anything?

That's right. The respective elevations of Redshirt Man & Ms. Reese in Bell are an uncanny match for the respective elevations of Mr. Lovelady & Ms. Reese in the Wiegman frame.

Speaking of heights!

Look at where Mr. Oswald's right elbow is here in Hughes when Mr. Oswald has his hand raised: approximately the same height as the top of the head of the man in front of him (=Mr. Roy Lewis):

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

Now look at where 'Prayer Person's' right elbow is here in Wiegman (just a few seconds later) when they have their hand raised: about the same height as the top of the head of the man in front of them (= still Mr. Roy Lewis!).

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6rhgg5Q/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-elbow.jpg)

Same movement; same height.

Are we sure this is a coincidence?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 12:39:37 AM
Same movement; same height.

Are we sure this is a coincidence?

 Thumb1:

But!

There is obviously a much smaller distance between Mr. Oswald and Mr. Lewis in Hughes than between Prayer Person and Mr. Lewis in Wiegman. Right?

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/B6rhgg5Q/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-elbow.jpg)

Well, appearances can be deceiving.............

Looking at the respective heights of Mr. Oswald's and Mr. Lewis' heads in Hughes, it would appear that Mr. Oswald is TWO steps behind Mr. Lewis:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

This doesn't just mean that Mr. Oswald is at a substantial height advantage over Mr. Lewis, but also that he is at a substantial distance behind him.

Just like Prayer Person in Wiegman.

Are we sure this is just a coincidence?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 18, 2023, 12:40:41 AM
~Grin~

Thanks for confirming that you can't defend your kooky claim that this is Mr. Lovelady!  Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Is John Fetterman in the room next to yours?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 12:49:26 AM
This doesn't just mean that Mr. Oswald is at a substantial height advantage over Mr. Lewis, but also that he is at a substantial distance behind him.

Just like Prayer Person in Wiegman.

Are we sure this is just a coincidence?

 Thumb1:

Looking at these two scenes, we might now find ourselves reflecting that they are actually only just a few seconds apart:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/wT8N6PTj/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-unmarked.jpg)

Could it be---------we find ourselves wondering-----------that they are showing the same two men, one of whom (=the one standing higher up) is, in the later clip, simply repeating a hand movement (drinking) he made in the earlier clip?

Are you paying attention yet?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 12:52:52 AM
Could it be---------we find ourselves wondering-----------that they are showing the same two men, one of whom (=the one standing higher up) is, in the later clip, simply repeating a hand movement (drinking) he made in the earlier clip?

Are you paying attention yet?

 Thumb1:

'But!' I hear you cry, 'LHO is catching plenty of sunlight in the Hughes clip, whereas Prayer Person is in shadow.'

To which you hear me reply: 'Well, quite..................................................'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 01:00:01 AM
'But!' I hear you cry, 'LHO is catching plenty of sunlight in the Hughes clip, whereas Prayer Person is in shadow.'

To which you hear me reply: 'Well, quite..................................................'

 Thumb1:

'But!' I hear you cry, 'you yourself debunked the PM=LHO theory by posting this Darnell frame! You said you thought this was Pauline Sanders, for pete's sake!'

(https://i.postimg.cc/8PXVd8J1/Prayer-Woman.jpg)

To which you hear me reply, 'Indeed I did, and I stand by that statement. I believe this is Mrs. Sanders standing up on the landing.'

To which I hear you cry, 'So now you're saying PM=LHO after all?!?!'

To which you hear me reply, 'Which PM are you talking about? The one standing a couple of steps up from Mr. Lewis in Wiegman, or the one standing back on the landing in Darnell?'

To which I hear you cry, 'But they're the same person!'

To which you hear me reply, 'Are we 100% sure of that?'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 10:03:45 AM
So!

Let us proceed by talking not of 'Prayer Man' as the figure common to Wiegman and Darnell, but instead draw a distinction:
-------------Prayer MAN = the figure in Wiegman
-------------Prayer WOMAN = the figure in Darnell

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 10:29:26 AM
Friends, look again at these four scenes (Hughes---Bell---WiegmanA---WiegmanB), which come in chronological order:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/wT8N6PTj/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-unmarked.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

The angles are different, but they are all showing basically the same configuration of key persons on the west side of the doorway.

Hughes shows
-----------Mr. Lewis (2nd step up)
-----------Mr. Oswald (4th step up)
-----------Ms. Reese (1st step up)
But Mr. Lovelady (back on the 5th step up, more west than Messrs. Lewis & Oswald) is hidden from view by the girl in blue on the pedestal

Bell shows
-----------Mr. Lovelady (5th step up)
-----------Ms. Reese (1st step up)
But Messrs. Lewis & Oswald are hidden from view by the foliage

WiegmanA shows
-----------Mr. Lewis (2nd step up)
-----------Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN (4th step up)
-----------Ms. Reese (1st step up)
-----------Mr. Lovelady (now 5th step up: he's trying to get a better view down Elm)

WiegmanB shows
-----------Mr. Lewis (2nd step up)
-----------Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN (4th step up; right forearm no longer raised to face)
-----------Ms. Reese (1st step up)
-----------Mr. Lovelady (now back down to 4th step up)

Only Mr. Lovelady moves position (up and then back down a step) during the time frame covered by these four clips.

Here is Mr. Andrej Stancak's model for the doorway @12:30. Please disregard the human figures here: Mr. Stancak is representing the Darnell scene---------all I'm interested in for present purposes is
---STEPS
---SHADOW LINE CAST BY WEST COLUMN

The circles I've added represent how I place the figures in Hughes-Bell-WiegmanA-WiegmanB.

GREEN: Ms. Maddie Reese
BLUE: Mr. Roy Lewis
WHITE: Mr. Lee Oswald/PrayerMAN
YELLOW: PrayerWOMAN (not visible in any of the four clips)
PURPLE: Mr. Lovelady in Bell & WiegmanB
RED: Mr. Lovelady in WiegmanA

(https://i.postimg.cc/nz996ZFd/Stancak-overhead-steps.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 03:35:07 PM
'But!' I hear you cry, 'LHO is catching plenty of sunlight in the Hughes clip, whereas Prayer Person is in shadow.'

To which you hear me reply: 'Well, quite..................................................'

 Thumb1:

The working assumption has always been that Prayer Man is in natural shadow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/wT8N6PTj/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-unmarked.jpg)

All attention went (my fault!) to the obvious impossibility/fakeness of the 'shadow' down Mr. Lovelady, while it was taken as read that Prayer Man is in natural shadow. The belief that Prayer Man in Wiegman must be Prayer Man in Darnell seemed to back up this assumption.

This error led to a misperception of where he is actually standing: we thought he had to be far enough back, and close enough to the west wall, to catch all that shadow. This poor assumption led us to fall prey to what is effectively an optical illusion.

But no. The 'shadow' down PrayerMAN is every bit as fake as the 'shadow' down Mr. Lovelady. PrayerMAN (Mr. Oswald) is in reality in the same spot as we see him in Hughes, catching plenty of direct sunlight.

Here's what I think happened.

They looked at Wiegman and saw that the west side of the doorway was a disaster (for it showed Mr. Oswald there). We need to get rid of as much of that side of the doorway as we can.

They looked at Altgens, and decided to take the point where the west column cuts off Mr. Lovelady as their starting point for their fake shadow. This was the very maximum they could 'take' from visibility. Any more eastwards encroachment into Mr. Lovelady's shirt, and folks will spot the discrepancy with Altgens.

But why not just leave Mr. Lovelady alone, and start the shadow only at PrayerMAN?

They reckoned that only having PrayerMAN catching shadow might alert folks to what they'd done in obscuring him. Much better to give Mr. Lovelady a bit of the shadow action----------------folks (without access to 21st-century digital technology) would have no clue that Mr. Lovelady was standing in full sunlight. They'd just get the impression that a good quarter of the doorway happens to be not catching the sun at that time of day.

What we get a glimpse of in Bell is precisely what we are NOT allowed to see in Wiegman: the fact that Mr. Lovelady is standing in full sunlight................

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

The original, pre-doctored version of Wiegman showed the same thing as Bell: Mr. Lovelady standing there, without any shadow whatsoever falling down his right side.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 03:46:24 PM
So!

If you want to get a good idea of what Mr. Lovelady's right side must have looked like in the original, un-doctored Wiegman frames, all you have to do is take a look at Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

And if you want to get a good idea of what Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN must have looked like in the original, un-doctored Wiegman frames, all you have to do is take a look at Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

Two color films exposing the true scandalous story of what was done to one black-and-white film...........................

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 04:44:51 PM
And if you want to get a good idea of what Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN must have looked like the original, un-doctored Wiegman frames, all you have to do is take a look at Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

The only difference, of course, being that Mr. Oswald in Hughes has his left hand down at his side, whereas in Wiegman his left hand is raised to chest height.

We'll likely never know for sure what's made him bring up that left hand in Wiegman, but I suspect he's holding an apple (or cheese sandwich) in it and has just before this taken a bite which he is now washing down with more Coca Cola..................

(https://i.postimg.cc/SK4JsdSy/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-arms.jpg)

This raising of the left hand is what caused the understandable confusion that reigned for so long as to PrayerMAN and PrayerWOMAN being the same person:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SK4JsdSy/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-arms.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/8PXVd8J1/Prayer-Woman.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 05:42:48 PM
This head seems to be going too high for PrayerMAN--------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdQ0n6dP/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-75-PM-faces.jpg)

Probable explanation: this is not just PrayerMAN's head, but some of PrayerWOMAN's head in the background too

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 05:55:04 PM
.......................just as we already got a glimpse of PrayerWOMAN's head behind Mr. Oswald in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j28SgPQr/Hughes-LHO-Prayer-Woman.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 06:25:53 PM
So!

We can now-----------for the first time ever------------track chronologically, across the visual record of the assassination, Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald's stationary presence on the far west side (four steps up) of the Depository front entrance:

(https://i.postimg.cc/63Zv7jX1/Hughes-LHO-Prayer-Woman-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/3JfxTjMy/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz97y1zM/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/d3HwJFfM/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER-arrow.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT12MN7Q/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg)

It took a minute, but we're there!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 18, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
And the reason we can know for sure that it is Mr. Oswald's presence we are tracking across these images, and no one else's, is that we can track the presence of Mr. Lovelady-------------the only other white male employee who can be wearing a long-sleeved red shirt over a white tshirt on the west side of those steps. For we now have proof positive (via crossreferencing of the films) that there were not one but TWO white men wearing long-sleeved red shirts over white tshirts on the west side of those steps at the time of the shooting.

Furthermore, the fact that an artificial (i.e. naturally impossible) shadow has been provably placed down Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman tells us that the Wiegman frames in the public domain are doctored. This confirms-----------as if this needed any confirmation!----------that the man in the reddish shirt over white tshirt shown in Hughes is indeed Mr. Oswald. No stranger wearing a reddish shirt over a white tshirt (a vanishingly improbable fluke in its own right) would have caused the 'investigating' authorities to add artificial shadow to Wiegman. The provable doctoring of this piece of visual evidence provably excludes as a candidate for Reddish Shirt Man every human being except Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Those who wish to challenge the proof I have offered of Mr. Oswald's alibi now need to go beyond subjective and vague expressions of their own disbelief, or smug metacommentary, or attempts to gaslight with any other nonsense.

They must instead begin by meeting a simple and fair double challenge:

1. Explain to us how this man in red in Hughes can possibly be Mr. Billy Lovelady
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

2. Explain to us how this shadow down Mr. Lovelady's side in Wiegman can possibly be a natural shadow
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

If they are right and I am wrong, then they will have no difficulty meeting this double challenge. Indeed, they will be enthusiastic to do so.

Confident prediction:

They will either run away and pretend what has just happened (i.e. the exoneration of Mr. Oswald as sixth-floor shooter) hasn't just happened, or make fools of themselves loudly talking about every issue EXCEPT those raised in the above double challenge.

What they will NOT do is meet EITHER of the elements in this double challenge. For the simple reason that: Mr. Oswald really did go outside to watch P. Parade, and none of them can go back in time and stop him!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 19, 2023, 12:01:11 AM
When the frame of red shirt man is enlarged, I don’t see any indication of any black squares like Loveladys red and black (grid square) pattern.

In looks even more solid reddish brown than before. So the speculation probability meter is closer match to Oswald’s red brown fine texture shirt (imo.)

I’d still like a computer imaging analysis though just to confirm that there’s no little black squares in there somewhere :)


 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 12:11:23 AM
When the frame of red shirt man is enlarged, I don’t see any indication of any black squares like Loveladys red and black (grid square) pattern.

Are you speaking of Redshirt Man in Hughes, Mr. Mason?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 19, 2023, 01:15:02 AM
Yes, Mr. Ford, Reddish shirt man in Hughes film. Post an enlarged frame and the shirt appears to me to be even more sold red without any black squares. That  which seems improbable if that were Loveladys red and black square shirt.

Conclusion: Red shirt man raising hand in Hughes film is not likely Lovelady unless some computer can see some black squares that my eyes can’t see.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 19, 2023, 02:02:32 AM
Almost 300 pages of this nonsense but no effort to contact the NY Times with this evidence.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Yes, Mr. Ford, Reddish shirt man in Hughes film.

Thanks for confirming, Mr. Mason Thumb1:

Quote
Post an enlarged frame and the shirt appears to me to be even more sold red without any black squares. That  which seems improbable if that were Loveladys red and black square shirt.

Conclusion: Red shirt man raising hand in Hughes film is not likely Lovelady unless some computer can see some black squares that my eyes can’t see.

No doubt some enterprising Warren Gullible will try to gaslight us into seeing what's not there. (We've already had a taste of that with Mr. Organ's failed attempt to make Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt blue!)

But let's be clear: no amount of funky computer imaging is going to change the stark fact that there are two white men in red shirts over white tshirts standing on the west side of the front entrance. Both have to be accounted for.

The Warren Gullibles are checkmated.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 02:20:41 AM
Friends, looking back it's clear to see how disaster came to the Good Ship Warren.

10 years ago: Prayer Man: this was when the Warren Gullibles had their first sighting of the iceberg

4 years ago: "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" (Agent Hosty draft interrogation report): this was when the Good Ship Warren hit the iceberg

2019-23: The Good Ship Warren has been taking on more and more water

This last few days: Proof (via Hughes-Bell-Towner) that Redshirt Man in Hughes cannot be Mr. Lovelady: this was when the Good Ship Warren sank

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 05:41:09 PM
[POST DELETED - A.F.]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 07:46:59 PM
Friends, here (again) is Mr. Stancak's overhead of the doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xyPHC89/Stancak-overhead.jpg)

(Once again, please note that the scene is Darnell, so people are in different positions to Wiegman, BUT the light conditions are the same as for Wiegman. And that's all I'm interested in here for present purposes!)

Look at the natural shadowline cast by the west column (=green line). See how
EITHER
far back
OR
close to the wall
a person would have to be to be standing in natural shadow.

Now look at Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4jFfvYb/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-PM-arms.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/3xyPHC89/Stancak-overhead.jpg)

Question!

Is it possible for PrayerMAN to be in natural shadow (i.e. behind the green line) WHILE standing at a spot that allows simultaneously-----------to Wiegman's POV-----------
a) his right elbow to show so little distance from the white column
b) his left elbow to cut across the vertical metal strip back in the corner?

I submit that it is not, and that this means that PrayerMAN in Wiegman cannot be standing in natural shadow--------------he would either be too far from the white column (right elbow) or not cutting across the vertical metal strip (left elbow). You can't have both things we see in Wiegman--------------unless he's standing somewhere else altogether, somewhere that does NOT take him right inside the green line.

I believe that the disposition of his arms in relation to other markers shows him to be facing forward (NOT turned somewhat, like PrayerWOMAN in Darnell) and standing on the fourth step up, ever so slightly east of Mr. Lewis who is down two steps below him.

I.E.! To make sense of PrayerMAN's coordinates here, we have to understand that he, like Mr. Lovelady, has had artificial shadow added to him. The original, undoctored Wiegman showed him standing in the same place as in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mZ0PWRGH/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-unmarked.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 19, 2023, 09:02:42 PM
A little later, after Wiegman filmed, which means that shadow would be extending even less eastward, than what is seen in this frame.
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/StepShadow.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 09:18:20 PM
A little later, after Wiegman filmed, which means that shadow would be extending even less eastward, than what is seen in this frame.
(https://s3.gifyu.com/images/StepShadow.png)

Indeed, Mr. Davidson!

The front steps were almost fully in sunlight. The preposterous Wiegman magic 'shadow'-----------

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

------------banked on folks' ignorance of this simple fact.

Here's Mr. James Hackerott's reconstruction @ 12.30pm:

(https://i.postimg.cc/xqDmZJbs/Hackerott-darnell-shadow.jpg)

And various aftermath images, all showing MORE shadow than would have been there @ 12.30pm...........................

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHk0CrCb/allen-entrance-shadow-small.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zkdgv03/Front-steps-for-wiegman-shadow-12-58.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4m60MPZ/tsbd-front-steps-shadow.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 09:37:14 PM
The front steps were almost fully in sunlight. The preposterous Wiegman magic 'shadow'-----------

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

------------banked on folks' ignorance of this simple fact.

Here's how those tasked with doctoring the images went about mimicking the texture of natural shadow:

----They could see that PrayerWOMAN was standing in a place that put her in natural shadow
----A part of her shadowed head was sticking up over the bathed-in-light head of Mr. Oswald (PrayerMAN): this gave the technicians their reference
----The technicians set themselves the task of conforming the obscurity of Mr. Oswald's face & upper body to that of the background head of PrayerWOMAN
----They extended the magic 'shadow' eastwards until it went down Mr. Lovelady's right side

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

The scam is almost laughably crude, but it did the job for six decades!

If the American public had been able to get a proper look at the original Wiegman frames showing the doorway, our resident Warren Gullibles would have spent the last years dismissing as utterly kooky the notion that the Warren Commission got it wrong in its conclusion that Mr. Jack Edwin Dougherty [or some other patsy] had acted alone.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 19, 2023, 10:08:11 PM
Friends, Warren Gullibility will be remembered as a bizarre cult of propagandists and midwits. Its compound has just been razed to the ground.

Whilst I am under no illusions as to the ability of some Warren Critics to look a gift horse in the mouth, I am confident that enough people with eyes to see, brains to think, and tongues to speak plain truth will understand the significance of what has just happened. The 60th anniversary of Pres. Kennedy's horrific murder bids fair to be an anniversary like none that came before................

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTM1wrcR/JFK.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 20, 2023, 02:58:32 AM
Ok Mr.Ford, I will try to be a Skeptic since the dedicated  LNs probably consider the whole Oswald Out Front theory totally absurd, thus will ignore this thread.

So Here are some Skeptic ?:

1. Did the conspirator/ cover up squad miss how similar Red shirt man in Hughes film is to Oswald?
2. If no, to 1, Then since Red shirt man is fully visible, they must have thought that the public could be convinced the man was Lovelady, therefore took no steps to alter the Hughes film?
3. The movement of the left arm of Red Shirt man in Hughes is up and down in 1 sec. Can we be certain the action of a bottle being raised, making contact with lips, a portion of liquid escapes bottle into the mouth, and the hand holding bottle returns to waist level, can occur in a mere 1sec?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 20, 2023, 08:59:51 AM
Ok Mr.Ford, I will try to be a Skeptic since the dedicated  LNs probably consider the whole Oswald Out Front theory totally absurd, thus will ignore this thread.

Again, Mr. Mason, you make the mistake of treating the Warren Gullibles as honest brokers. They're anything but.
They don't think LHO-out-front is absurd------------they're completely stumped by the evidence I have presented, and mortified at their inability to explain
a) how Redshirt Man in Hughes can be Mr. Lovelady
b) how the shadow down Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman can be natural.
If they had something, you'd be sure we'd be hearing from them.
They big mad.

Quote
So Here are some Skeptic ?:

1. Did the conspirator/ cover up squad miss how similar Red shirt man in Hughes film is to Oswald?

Nope! But bear in mind that Mr. Hughes did not come forward with his film until 11/26/63

Quote
2. If no, to 1, Then since Red shirt man is fully visible, they must have thought that the public could be convinced the man was Lovelady, therefore took no steps to alter the Hughes film?

Yep! And 'fixing' Mr. Oswald in Hughes = much trickier than in Wiegman

Quote
3. The movement of the left arm of Red Shirt man in Hughes is up and down in 1 sec. Can we be certain the action of a bottle being raised, making contact with lips, a portion of liquid escapes bottle into the mouth, and the hand holding bottle returns to waist level, can occur in a mere 1sec?

The gif is on a loop, and the cut back to the start gives the false impression of the hand being brought down v. quickly. What Hughes shows is perfectly consistent with a man taking a sip from a bottle

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 20, 2023, 07:22:54 PM
Here's how those tasked with doctoring the images went about mimicking the texture of natural shadow:

----They could see that PrayerWOMAN was standing in a place that put her in natural shadow
----A part of her shadowed head was sticking up over the bathed-in-light head of Mr. Oswald (PrayerMAN): this gave the technicians their reference
----The technicians set themselves the task of conforming the obscurity of Mr. Oswald's face & upper body to that of the background head of PrayerWOMAN
----They extended the magic 'shadow' eastwards until it went down Mr. Lovelady's right side

Alan,
I remember giving you a lot of grief about the Wiegman shadow initially, while supplying some alternatives for what I thought it might have been.
This, coming from someone who already knows other items had been altered.
But, after spending many many hours looking through videos/photos and not finding one which showed the shoulder shadow that far eastward at the time of Wiegman, it became apparent to me that what you were conveying was correct.
The closest I could find was this cop segment which I posted long ago, but once again, this was later than Wiegman so that shadow would not have extended even to where we see it on the cop, who is on the 1st step down from the landing.
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/STEPS1.gif)

 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 20, 2023, 07:58:27 PM
Thank you very much, Mr. Davidson!

The fact that Mr. Lovelady steps down in the later Wiegman frames only seals the disaster for those still insisting on the integrity of the images:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

He is clearly facing forward and nowhere near west or back enough to catch shadow. It's not even close.

The guys who did this to Wiegman were like someone writing a PhD in 1963 full of plagiarisms, not foreseeing that a time would come when digital plagiarism software would detect their sins with painful clarity!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 21, 2023, 02:30:09 PM
Friends, in 2019 Mr. Pat Speer---------a real researcher unlike so many of the clowns who populate the 'research community'!---------wrote this:

I was in Dallas on the weekend of the anniversary, and found myself standing in front of the TSBD at 12:30. And I looked at the steps from the angle of Altgens. Well, it hit me then that the Lovelady figure in Altgens was standing in the middle of the steps, and not on the far west of the steps, as seems apparent from the photo.

So I walked over to the steps. And noticed something. The shadow of the wall by the steps cuts across the top step at an angle. Well, this proves Prayer person was in the back corner, and not on the top step. or standing halfway on the second to the top step and top step. I walked up to the top and turned around. When I stood up against the west side of the staircase, I was able to get my face half in shade/half in sun. But when I stood on the top steps in a normal relaxed manner, my face was always in sun. I'm not sure if this means anything. But I seem to remember someone holding out that Prayer person was straddled on the top two steps. And there's no way he/she could have done that without being at least halfway in the sun.


Mr. Speer is quite right about Mr. Lovelady in Altgens, but what he says about PrayerPerson does raise the obvious question: how on earth is Mr. Lovelady---------the same person we know to be nowhere near the shadowline in Altgens---------suddenly catching all this shadow in Wiegman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

Answer: The Wiegman frames have had shadow artificially added to them.

It's that simple. One may find this explanation shocking, but there is no other explanation that comes even close to making sense.

And, knowing, as we do, that shadow has been artificially added to one person in the doorway (Mr. Lovelady), we can hardly find it a stretch at all to posit that shadow has been added artificially to a second person (PrayerMAN) in the same frames. Especially when positing this, and seeing that PrayerMAN is in reality catching plenty of sun, suddenly makes sense of where his elbows are showing up in Wiegman in relation to a) white column, b) vertical metal strip in corner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4jFfvYb/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0009-PM-arms.jpg)

PrayerMAN only makes sense, in short, if he is standing at the same spot as we see Redshirt Man standing in Hughes-------------back a couple of steps from the black man who is standing on the second step up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

Boom!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 21, 2023, 03:21:07 PM
since Red shirt man is fully visible, they must have thought that the public could be convinced the man was Lovelady, therefore took no steps to alter the Hughes film?

However!

A very strange 'mix-up' happened in late-February 1964 when Mr. Billy Lovelady was called in to the FBI office in Dallas to have his photograph taken:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jvDN7Y3/Lovelady-FBI.jpg)

The official report said this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sX7H89f0/Lovelady-striped-shirt-FBI-marked.jpg)

The reader gets the impression that the shirt described in the report ("a red and white vertical striped shirt") is the one in the photograph------------and hence that the shirt in the photograph is the one worn by Mr. Lovelady the day of the assassination.

Mr. Lovelady would later say that he was NOT told to wear the same clothes as he had worn 11/22/63 to the photograph session, and so he just brought what he happened to be wearing this day (2/29/64). By the time he made this clear, he was showing folks his 11/22 shirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5fvDGX4/Lovelady-shirt-1967.jpg)

Okay, but read again the report's description of the shirt: "a red and white vertical striped shirt".

Note that there is no mention here that the shirt was short-sleeved, which the shirt in the photograph obviously is.

Nor does the report state explicitly that the shirt Mr. Lovelady wore for the photograph session was his 11/22 shirt.

What is going on here? A comedy of errors? Perhaps.

But I think what we're really seeing here is a deliberate mix-up by FBI-----------------------one that created enough ambiguity to allow a certain impression to be given (both the short-sleeved shirt in the Feb photograph and Mr. Lovelady's 11/22 shirt may be described as "red" and "white vertical striped"), while leaving room to correct that impression should folks notice the problem.

And why would such a deliberate mix-up be contrived? Because the 'investigating' authorities didn't want to photograph Mr. Lovelady in his actual 11/22 shirt.

And why not? Because of Redshirt Man in Hughes

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

The authorities, who knew damn well that Mr. Oswald was Redshirt Man in Hughes, were a whole lot LESS spooked by the LHO=AltgensDoorwayman chatter than by the LHO=RedshirtManInHughes truth which no one had yet clocked.

NB! Only when the Martin film came to light did folks get to see Mr. Lovelady's 11/22/63 shirt for the first time:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKqfryv3/Lovelady-in-Martin.gif)

After that, the ambiguity game could no longer be played..................

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2023, 02:39:01 PM
But I think what we're really seeing here is a deliberate mix-up by FBI-----------------------one that created enough ambiguity to allow a certain impression to be given (both the short-sleeved shirt in the Feb photograph and Mr. Lovelady's 11/22 shirt may be described as "red" and "white vertical striped"), while leaving room to correct that impression should folks notice the problem.

And why would such a deliberate mix-up be contrived? Because the 'investigating' authorities didn't want to photograph Mr. Lovelady in his actual 11/22 shirt.

And why not? Because of Redshirt Man in Hughes

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

'But why didn't they just put a reddish long-sleeved shirt like LHO's on Lovelady for the photograph session? Problem solved, no?'

Actually, problem very much NOT solved.

Because if they do that, and explicitly equate the shirt Mr. Lovelady has on for the photograph session with the shirt he wore 11/22/63, then they are giving a dangerous hostage to fortune: at any time, a photograph or film of Mr. Lovelady on 11/22/63 could emerge into the public domain. And it would show a different shirt.

Which is exactly what did happen:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKqfryv3/Lovelady-in-Martin.gif)

Note that FBI were aware of the existence of this film as early as 12/3/63...............

They did not want to photograph Mr. Lovelady in his actual 11/22/63 shirt: Hughes, with its image of Redshirt Man, was concerning enough in this regard, but a color photo or film could yet emerge showing Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt in the doorway at close quarters.

But nor could they photograph him in one resembling Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt: such a claim would be immediately falsified by the emergence into the public domain of an image of Mr. Lovelady from 11/22/63.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2023, 06:16:20 PM
They did not want to photograph Mr. Lovelady in his actual 11/22/63 shirt: Hughes, with its image of Redshirt Man, was concerning enough in this regard, but a color photo or film could yet emerge showing Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt in the doorway at close quarters.

But nor could they photograph him in one resembling Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt: such a claim would be immediately falsified by the emergence into the public domain of an image of Mr. Lovelady from 11/22/63.

The early researchers who knew that something was off with the whole Lovelady Shirt business all made the same mistake of relating it to AltgensDoorwayman, and assuming that what the 'investigating' authorities were covering up was the fact that Altgens showed Mr. Oswald rather than Mr. Lovelady. This erroneous belief led them badly astray. However, it now turns out that they were a LOT closer to the truth of the matter than those clowns trying to put Mr. Oswald up on the sixth floor!

As for the Prayer Man folks, they were a LOT closer to the truth----------------not alone were they (like the LHO=AltgensDoorwayman folks) 100% correct as to the question 'In which part of the building was LHO?', they have been proven 50% correct in their identification of WHICH figure in the doorway he actually is:

!
No, Prayer Person in Darnell is NOT Mr. Oswald.

!!
But yes, PrayerMAN in Wiegman IS Mr. Oswald-----------------for he is the same man IN THE SAME PLACE whom we see in his reddish shirt in Hughes, only here he's had artificial shadow added to hide his facial features:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Amazing to think that we've been looking at Mr. Oswald in Hughes for all these years and not realizing it!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2023, 06:36:14 PM
The early researchers who knew that something was off with the whole Lovelady Shirt business all made the same mistake of relating it to AltgensDoorwayman, and assuming that what the 'investigating' authorities were covering up was the fact that Altgens showed Mr. Oswald rather than Mr. Lovelady. This erroneous belief led them badly astray. However, it now turns out that they were a LOT closer to the truth of the matter than those clowns trying to put Mr. Oswald up on the sixth floor!

As for the Prayer Man folks, they were a LOT closer to the truth----------------not alone were they (like the LHO=AltgensDoorwayman folks) 100% correct as to the question 'In which part of the building was LHO?', they have been proven 50% correct in their identification of WHICH figure in the doorway he actually is:

!
No, Prayer Person in Darnell is NOT Mr. Oswald.

!!
But yes, PrayerMAN in Wiegman IS Mr. Oswald-----------------for he is the same man IN THE SAME PLACE whom we see in his reddish shirt in Hughes, only here he's had artificial shadow added to hide his facial features:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Amazing to think that we've been looking at Mr. Oswald in Hughes for all these years and not realizing it!

 Thumb1:

Another way of thinking of this:

It has been established beyond any doubt that there are TWO men in red shirt over white tshirt standing in different parts of the west side of the doorway at the time of the motorcade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TP8zYT5M/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

Only one of these two men can be Mr. Billy Lovelady.

But which one?

Answer: The one whose facial features are NOT obscured in Wiegman through the addition of fake shadow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

And there is only one man whose facial features the authorities were desperate not to have show up in images of the doorway at the time of the assassination:

Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald------------------a manual worker in the Depository who said he wore this reddish shirt over his white tshirt that day:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRJMpBRD/LHO-shirt-speer.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/g2yz3CfD/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

[Credit for shirt photo: Mr. Pat Speer]

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2023, 06:45:00 PM
And----------------by way of gratifying bonus-----------------Hughes even shows us the glass from the lower part of Mr. Oswald's Coca Cola bottle!

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3fBD3Xp/LHO-Hughes-bottle.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2023, 07:46:09 PM
Speaking of bottles!

Here's an aftermath photo showing something interesting just beside where Mr. Oswald was at the time of the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tV8D9z3/bottle-steps-marked.jpg)

We see two items----------------a bottle and some sort of light-colored small paper bag or wrapping:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNK54zW5/bottle-steps-large-items.jpg)

Oh but look more closely!---------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv7GJZZF/steps-bottle-top.gif)

What an odd shape for the mouth of a bottle! Gee, it's almost as if there's something on top of, or stuck into the mouth of, the bottle............

What on earth could it be?

Well, what was it again Mr. Oswald------------the man who was standing right by here at the time of the assassination; the man we see drinking from a bottle in Hughes; the man we see holding TWO items in his hands in Wiegman-----------said he had for lunch?

1. Apple
2. Cheese sandwich
3. Coca Cola


Hmmm, what might one wrap a sandwich in?
Hmmm, what might an apple look like after being eaten?
Hmmm, what might a Coca Cola bottle look like after the drink has being consumed?


Check! Check! Check!

(https://i.postimg.cc/4NF7R6Kw/bottle-steps-large-3-items.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 23, 2023, 03:45:25 AM
So far the Red Shirt Man =Oswald  theory seems to be plausible.

No one has demonstrated  (yet) that a red shirt with such large black square grid pattern as Loveladys shirt , can appear seemingly so solid reddish brown as in Hughes film.

I’m going along with the theory so far because it does look like a bottle in the hand of Red Shirt Man (imo) in that enlarged GIF Mr.Ford posted from Hughes film.

Lovelady said  he also had gone to the 2nd floor and got a bottle of coke. The time he went up is not exactly known, but he said after he came back down and went to the Domino room, no one was in there. That’s when he then went outside to the front steps to join Sarah Stanton and Bill Shelley. ( Time approx 12;15)

Oswald was sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom
12:15-12:17 per Carolyn Arnold, and Oswald then went down to the Domino room and was there until at least 12:25 ( seeing Jarman and Norman returning into TSBD via rear loading dock door)

How is possible that Lovelady was able to buy a coke from the 2nd floor Lunchroom , and not be seen by any office women , including Mrs Reid, then Lovelady went down to the Domino room
 saw no one there, or anywhere else on the 1st floor , between 12:00 and 12:15? Lovelady then joined Sarah Stanton and Bill Shelley by 12:15.

Possibilities:
A.  Lovelady bought his coke between 11:50-12:00 therefore was not seen by office women, and he waited somewhere other than the 1st floor until about 12:14 , allowingJarman/Norman and any others to have vacated both the Domino room as well as the entire 1st floor.

B. Lovelady was coerced or it was “suggested” that he should say he bought a coke in order to help out the WC.

If A. Then Billy Lovelady had 29 minutes to consume the contents of his coke thus he is not likely to be the Red Shirt Man in Hughes taking a drink at about 12:29:30.

Oswald , however, probably bought his coke after 12:15 or even a little later, probably just after Carolyn Arnold saw him , and when she left the 2nd floor lunchroom (12:17).

So the probability is in favor of Red Shirt man being Oswald because only about 12 minutes have elapsed from time bottle was bought about 12:17 to when Oswald went out to the steps at 12:29. Therefore some % of liquid contents still left in the bottle , being finished off at time of Red Shirt Man (Hughes film ) as well as arm and bottle raised in Altgens ( Cronkite version) no. 6 photo.(12:30)

(Note: if Option B that Lovelady never bought a coke at all, then it’s even greater probability that Red Shirt Man in Hughes film must be Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 12:05:00 PM
So far the Red Shirt Man =Oswald  theory seems to be plausible.

No one has demonstrated  (yet) that a red shirt with such large black square grid pattern as Loveladys shirt , can appear seemingly so solid reddish brown as in Hughes film.

Which theme throws up a simpler explanation than the one I offered a few pages back for why the fake shadow in Wiegman had to start with Mr. Lovelady's right side rather than just with Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN---------------the undoctored frames showed with painful clarity the pattern of Mr. Lovelady's shirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTHqTH49/mytton-lovelady-contrast-striped-shirt.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 12:08:16 PM
I’m going along with the theory so far because it does look like a bottle in the hand of Red Shirt Man (imo) in that enlarged GIF Mr.Ford posted from Hughes film.

That's just a delightful bonus, Mr. Mason----------------the PROOF that this is Mr. Oswald lies in the cross-referencing of Hughes-Bell-Towner, and the relating of this to Wiegman.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 12:15:01 PM
PrayerWOMAN's head is the brighter section behind/above Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN's head:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTHqTH49/mytton-lovelady-contrast-striped-shirt.gif)

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 12:32:53 PM
Friends, this already monster thread has just played host to an historic breakthrough in the case: the exoneration of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald as sixth-floor shooter. The Warren Gullibles are huddled down in the basement of their razed compound, telling each other to play it cool and act like nothing's happened, and maintaining sanity by comparing notes appreciatively on some of their recent crucial work ('I've done a computer model of Oswald's shoelaces'; 'Wanna read my takedown of that factoid in JFK?'; 'Here's my piece on UFOlogy kooks and how they prove Oswald's guilt').

To those rational folks just tuning in, and having far too much of a life to entertain the idea of wading through 273 pages of posts, might I suggest that you make yourself a strong coffee and start on Page 251, Reply #2007---------------that's the moment the first bulldozer arrived!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 07:47:43 PM
Bell is the gift that keeps on giving-------------------------

It actually shows us a glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's head, as well as the fact that, as the limousine is passing in front of the building, he stops leaning west (which he has been doing to see past Ms. Ruth Dean [in blue] in front of him) and goes back to standing normally.

Look very closely-----------and start with the movement of Mr. Lovelady's left hand:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 08:05:47 PM
Now look at Towner at the exact same time (thanks to the expert sync-up by Mr. Davidson!):

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJsvHzSV/Bell-Towner.gif)

We see Ms. Ruth Dean in blue, just where we'd expect to see her: just east of the center rail.

But of Mr. Lovelady's head, red shirt, white tshirt-------------which we know from the simultaneous Bell to be in full sunlight just west/behind/above her

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYYy5L9L/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

--------------we are shown NOTHING. He has been completely blacked out.

Why? Those who blacked him out figured that no one would buy the ridiculous idea that Mr. Lovelady suddenly teleported himself up, back and across from 'his' Hughes position (on the fourth step up, far west and right behind the black man on the second step) to his Towner position in just a couple of seconds. Much better to pretend that he only moved up, back and across in the more generous allowance of seconds offered between Towner and Altgens.

Therefore: Mr. Oswald (albeit a decapitated Mr. Oswald) is left in in Towner, to deputize for the blacked-out Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLbV27YQ/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 11:27:57 PM
But of Mr. Lovelady's head, red shirt, white tshirt-------------which we know from the simultaneous Bell to be in full sunlight just west/behind/above her

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYYy5L9L/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

--------------we are shown NOTHING. He has been completely blacked out.

Unless!

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxHtk0rY/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER-heights.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/nrS46J7b/Bell-lovelady-head.jpg)

Is Mr. Lovelady craning his neck to see Pres. & Mrs. Kennedy??

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFLMrrt4/Towner-not-bell.gif)

And then he returns to his normal standing posture as the limousine draws right in front of him (i.e. Ms. Ruth Dean's hat is no longer blocking his way)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 11:34:31 PM
By way of entertaining reminder!---------------------

This white man wearing a red shirt over a white tshirt is the man Mr. Jerry Organ tried a few pages back to tell us was a black man wearing a brown cardigan over a blue shirt!

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2023, 11:46:33 PM
Three truths are told!---------------------

1. Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady spent the motorcade standing over close to the center railing

2. Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald spent the motorcade up at the SN window standing over by the brickwork just behind the western column

3. Neither man shot Pres. Kennedy

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Sean Kneringer on February 24, 2023, 01:47:02 AM
Three truths are told!---------------------

1. Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady spent the motorcade standing over close to the center railing

2. Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald spent the motorcade up at the SN window standing over by the brickwork just behind the western column

3. Neither man shot Pres. Kennedy

So he had the perfect alibi ... but told investigators he was in the lunch room.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2023, 07:23:19 AM
So he had the perfect alibi ... but told investigators he was in the lunch room.

Don't embarrass yourself, Mr. Kneringer:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKv83FqG/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2023, 12:38:38 PM
Question!

How come Mr. Bell is in so much shadow?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbm5VRn5/Bell-LOS-Davidson-crop.jpg)

Here, a few minutes before the motorcade, is the north-south-facing pedestal he will supposedly be on come 12:30pm:

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTbq7W80/Bronson-pre-motorcade-pedestal.jpg)

Answer!

He's not on the pedestal (the man in the white shirt is)-----------he's a little further west than the man in the white shirt = a little further west than we thought.................

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsyN7qQg/Map-Dealey-Plaza-bell-location.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbm5VRn5/Bell-LOS-Davidson-crop.jpg)

Explains a thing or two!

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 25, 2023, 12:19:48 PM
Here's how I see it......................

Ms. Maddie Reese is standing in the center of the doorway, on the very first step up. Right behind her is the center rail:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25gMJK3g/Reese-in-Wiegman.jpg)

This allows us to reconstruct the width of the doorway as seen in Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHBWNBWm/Bell-markings.jpg)

Mr. Bell was in sun for 'Bell 1' (= filming Houston St., lower image below), but moved west a little to get a better view on Elm, and so was in shade for 'Bell 2':

(https://i.postimg.cc/yd3bBX2t/Mark-Bell.jpg)

Here's about where he is (though perhaps I've put him a little too far east) for Bell 2 (dark gray lines), which is the sequence that shows the doorway. (I am also including Ms. Tina Towner's LOS to doorway, also in dark gray. Please disregard----for now----the light gray line!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fW8jR0fR/Map-Dealey-Plaza-Bell-Towner-LOS.jpg)

This explains nicely what Bell is showing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

-------------Ms. Reese is on the first step up in center of doorway
-------------Ms. Ruth Dean is showing up in blue behind her
-------------Mr. Lovelady is returning to normal stance after craning his neck (we got a glimpse of that in Towner)

Establishing POV for Bell as well as for Towner, and identifying Mr. Lovelady's craning of the neck in Towner, also explains nicely how these could be simultaneous sequences. Use the blue of Ms. Ruth Dean as your common point of reference:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJsvHzSV/Bell-Towner.gif)

If Mr. Bell had filmed the entrance head-on, with its centre rail directly in front of him (see light gray line on map above)---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jHWdRJk/TSBD-entrance-image.jpg)

----------------then he would be showing more of Mr. Lovelady than Towner's POV allows----though not as much as the glorious full-width shot his own 11/22/63 POV gives us!

And he would be clearly showing Messrs. Roy Edward Lewis and Lee Harvey Oswald over west, as already seen in Hughes and again in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/3JfxTjMy/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2023, 10:57:22 AM
Alternatively!

This is the base of the white west column-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXHXcdPq/Bell-white-column.jpg)

-------------and Ms. Reese is after all standing one step up just on the west side of the center rail.

Bell's angle is a little to the east of this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5HpY9vF/TSBD-front-entrance-1967.jpg)

Ms. Ruth Dean in blue is standing against the center rail. The foliage is covering the heads of Ms. Reese and Ms. Dean. Mr. Lovelady has been leaning on his right foot and craning his neck to see Pres. Kennedy: we are now seeing him straighten up again:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

I think the blue and white that are showing up just beside Mr. Lovelady (to our left as we look)  MAY be related to, respectively:
----------Mr. Roy Lewis' waving of an object
----------Mr. Oswald's white tshirt

Remember remember remember!: Just fractions of a second before this, Towner is showing the following:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJsvHzSV/Bell-Towner.gif)

And just a couple of seconds before that, Hughes is showing this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHzGQwk2/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)

So the challenge stands:

Explain, with reference to Hughes-Towner-Bell, how Redshirt Man in Hughes can possibly be Mr. Lovelady!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 26, 2023, 07:21:07 PM
Alternatively!

This is the base of the white west column-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXHXcdPq/Bell-white-column.jpg)

-------------and Ms. Reese is after all standing one step up just on the west side of the center rail.

Bell's angle is a little to the east of this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5HpY9vF/TSBD-front-entrance-1967.jpg)

No. Bell is standing on the large pedestal as Davidson shows.

(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-LOS.png)

Quote
Ms. Ruth Dean in blue is standing against the center rail.

Not Mrs. Dean. Probably the lower of the men with their hand over their eyes in Altgens.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3GbTQ2w/Altgens-Groden.jpg)

Quote
The foliage is covering the heads of Ms. Reese and Ms. Dean. Mr. Lovelady has been leaning on his right foot and craning his neck to see Pres. Kennedy: we are now seeing him straighten up again:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

I think the blue and white that are showing up just beside Mr. Lovelady (to our left as we look)  MAY be related to, respectively:
----------Mr. Roy Lewis' waving of an object
----------Mr. Oswald's white tshirt

You mean the thing bobbing in unison with the foliage sway?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2023, 11:57:24 PM
Not Mrs. Dean. Probably the lower of the men with their hand over their eyes in Altgens.

Hmmm.... I think the blue belongs to Ms. Dean but what I have been seeing as Mr. Lovelady's head sticking out in Towner may in fact be the right elbow of the gentleman you refer to:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnPTbX6r/Towner-not-bell.gif)

So-----------------where in the heck is Mr. Lovelady?

In a fraction of a second, Bell will be showing this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

And yet Towner will still be showing this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjNNHZ4H/Towner-later-frame.jpg)

Looks like I was right the first time: he's been blacked out of Towner, just as he's been partially blacked out of Wiegman

(https://i.postimg.cc/nVjTCFzf/Towner-Shadow.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

[Credit for Towner gif: Mr. Chris Davidson, who first spotted the problem WAY back...........]

Boy, they really HATED what was on the west side of that doorway!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2023, 01:16:48 AM
Well!

Mr. Carl Edward Jones is carrying something in his right hand in Couch:

(https://i.postimg.cc/nV2dyRCC/Jones-in-Couch-marked.gif)

Recall that Mr. Jones said he was sitting on the steps at the time of the assassination.

Now cf the flapping object in Towner and the upraised arm holding it (-------disregard red arrow please!---------):

(https://i.postimg.cc/nVjTCFzf/Towner-Shadow.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2023, 09:40:07 AM
Hmmm.... I think the blue belongs to Ms. Dean but what I have been seeing as Mr. Lovelady's head sticking out in Towner may in fact be the right elbow of the gentleman you refer to:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnPTbX6r/Towner-not-bell.gif)

So-----------------where in the heck is Mr. Lovelady?

Looking again at Towner, I think the white of Mr. Otis Williams' ample upper frame and raised right arm is NOT the warmer tones we see just above Ms. Dean's behatted head. Those are from Mr. Lovelady after all, who is at this time two steps down from the landing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KYmpBpdD/Towner-Shadow-larger.gif)

Although Wiegman's early doorway frames will show Mr. Lovelady a step higher, it shows everyone else in the same position, and so allows us to make a handy figure-to-figure comparison:

-Mr. Roy Edward Lewis (purple arrow)
-Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald (partially obscured in this Towner frame by flapping object) (light green arrow)
-PrayerWOMAN (behind Mr. Oswald--not visible in the below Wiegman frame but evident in Towner) (olive arrow)
-Ms. Ruth Dean (metallic blue arrow)
-Mr. Otis Williams (blue arrow)
-Mr. Billy Lovelady (orange arrow)
-the person (=Mrs. Sarah Stanton IMO) shielding eyes with both hands (pink arrow)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d0xqfCRp/Wiegman-comp-towner.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhk7N7vj/Towner-marked.jpg)

Mr. Lovelady has been cast into partial (fake) shadow in BOTH Towner and Wiegman (they had to harmonize the sunlight conditions across the two films). The red arrow in Towner above marks where the artificial shadow was placed.

Thankfully, Bell, with all it shows of Mr. Lovelady, helps us see what was really there:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on February 27, 2023, 07:20:12 PM
If the red arrow in the gif is actually the lower west edge of the concrete structure, horizontally flipping a frame and aligning it, might help with the people location. Just a thought.
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-Flopped.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2023, 11:54:38 PM
If the red arrow in the gif is actually the lower west edge of the concrete structure, horizontally flipping a frame and aligning it, might help with the people location. Just a thought.
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-Flopped.gif)

Interesting, Mr. Davidson, thank you!

The simultaneity of Bell and Towner simply leaves us with no way to reconcile what each is showing------------------absent the postulate that Towner (like Wiegman) has been monkeyed with

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 12:32:20 PM
If the red arrow in the gif is actually the lower west edge of the concrete structure,

That white is too low to be the top of the concrete base, though it MIGHT be part of its edge:

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2SmXRbS/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

However, looking at this gif, two things strike me:

1. Does the white edge marked by the green arrow (but seen so much better in the above gif) correspond to either the the light-blue or orange arrow-------------i.e. is it the right (east) edge of one of the two white columns over on the west side?

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MwhzzCb/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0002-columns.jpg)

2. This landmark is surely a useful reference in plotting Mr. Bell's POV

(https://i.postimg.cc/xCM4Wm9w/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0015-concrete.jpg)

The map suggests that it and its counterpart to the east are bracketing the doorway almost perfectly

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ9ydjgK/Map-Dealey-Plaza-suggested-Bell-LOS.jpg)

In which case, the doorway behind the foliage goes substantially farther west than we've been giving it credit for.............

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2023, 01:06:20 PM
How long can this go on?  There is an interesting correlation between many of those that believe in a conspiracy theory and some type of uncontrollable compulsion disorder.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2023, 02:55:47 PM
Not nearly as interesting as the compulsion of a guy who thinks the crime was solved 60 years ago making up a pen name and regurgitating the same misinformation over and over again on a discussion group for years.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
What is supposed to happen here by posting the same fuzzy photos and shaky films over and over again with arrows pointing in every direction?  I would be curious to know the ultimate purpose.  Could that be articulated? 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 03:24:13 PM
What is supposed to happen here by posting the same fuzzy photos and shaky films over and over again with arrows pointing in every direction?  I would be curious to know the ultimate purpose.  Could that be articulated?

The intelligent folks reading know exactly what is at stake in this. You------by definition-------don't.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2023, 03:37:21 PM
The intelligent folks reading know exactly what is at stake in this. You------by definition-------don't.

 Thumb1:

Would one of these "intelligent" folks (which apparently doesn't include yourself since you can't articulate an answer) enlighten me as to the purpose of posting the same fuzzy photos over and over and over on this forum?  What is expected to happen?  For example, does the DPD frequent this forum and you hope they will reopen the case based on your "evidence"? 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 03:46:06 PM
Would one of these "intelligent" folks (which apparently doesn't include yourself since you can't articulate an answer) enlighten me as to the purpose of posting the same fuzzy photos over and over and over on this forum?  What is expected to happen?  For example, does the DPD frequent this forum and you hope they will reopen the case based on your "evidence"?

~Grin~

'I wish you people would stop looking into who was where on the west side of the doorway'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 03:59:27 PM
In which case, the doorway behind the foliage goes substantially farther west than we've been giving it credit for.............

 Thumb1:

I think Bell (in the latter frames when Mr. Lovelady straightens up) and this latter-Wiegman frame are showing Mr. Lovelady and Ms. Reese in the same spatial relationship to one another:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/j2GKw0PF/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

Mr. Bell is NOT looking at the doorway head-on.

There is no impossible shadow running down Mr. Lovelady's right side in Bell. If he were Redshirt Man in Hughes, there would have been no need to throw an impossible shadow down him in Wiegman.

Redshirt Man in Hughes is Mr. Oswald, who is taking a drink from his bottle of Coca Cola:

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3fBD3Xp/LHO-Hughes-bottle.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2023, 04:15:56 PM
~Grin~

'I wish you people would stop looking into who was where on the west side of the doorway'

I'm just curious if you expect something to happen after making your claim a hundred times or more.  Or are you in the midst of some uncontrollable compulsion disorder and actually can't stop?  It's just curiosity.  You can knock yourself out posting the same fuzzy pictures and films and making the exact same claims over and over until the end of times for all I care but thought you might enlighten us as to what. if anything, you hope to happen.  Have you given it any thought?  I gather you have made no effort to provide your evidence to any law enforcement or media source to confirm your claims.  You have limited your efforts to an Internet forum.  Does that strike you as odd if you actually believe this proves that someone other than LHO assassinated the president?  If I believed that I had such evidence, I would run to the DPD or Tucker Carlson and make my case. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 04:18:23 PM
I'm just curious if you expect something to happen after making your claim a hundred times or more.  Or are you in the midst of some uncontrollable compulsion disorder and actually can't stop?  It's just curiosity.  You can knock yourself out posting the same fuzzy pictures and films and making the exact same claims over and over until the end of times for all I care but thought you might enlighten us as to what. if anything, you hope to happen.  Have you given it any thought?  I gather you have made no effort to provide your evidence to any law enforcement or media source to confirm your claims.  You have limited your efforts to an Internet forum.  Does that strike you as odd if you actually believe this proves that someone other than LHO assassinated the president?  If I believed that I had such evidence, I would run to the DPD or Tucker Carlson and make my case.

No amount of trolling from you can stop what is happening here, Mr. Smith. May you find the serenity to accept this thing you cannot change, and the courage to immerse yourself in a new hobby!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2023, 04:35:50 PM
No amount of trolling from you can stop what is happening here, Mr. Smith. May you find the serenity to accept this thing you cannot change, and the courage to immerse yourself in a new hobby!

 Thumb1:

Who is trying to stop you?  Do you think I have that power?  LOL.  I thought that perhaps you could explain your purpose in posting the same claims over and over and over again.  If you have none, that is fine.  It is not required even if bizarre.  If you do, however, like you hope law enforcement will use your "evidence" to reevaluate Oswald's guilt, why not articulate that instead of getting paranoid?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 06:23:25 PM
2. This landmark is surely a useful reference in plotting Mr. Bell's POV

(https://i.postimg.cc/xCM4Wm9w/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0015-concrete.jpg)

The map suggests that it and its counterpart to the east are bracketing the doorway almost perfectly

=============================>

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLzTvTWF/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0011-COLUMNS.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/sgccT3kp/Map-Dealey-Plaza-bell-pov.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2023, 06:36:23 PM
==========================>

Sunlit front steps:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HjGtJxfy/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson-frame-0013-STEPS.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/pLzTvTWF/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0011-COLUMNS.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on February 28, 2023, 10:54:24 PM
Perhaps this Bell frame with 3D animation overlay will be of interest.
(https://i.imgur.com/MUgD7qQ.gif)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 12:01:48 AM
Perhaps this Bell frame with 3D animation overlay will be of interest.
(https://i.imgur.com/MUgD7qQ.gif)

Very interesting, Mr. Hackerott, thank you!

Comparing the model to Bell, a couple of issues jump out immediately:

1. Ms. Reese's position needs adjustment (raised right arm a useful reference point here)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqLXpWQ1/Hackerott-bell-frames.gif)

2. The yellow pole is more west in Bell (not to be confused with the white patch!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMz1xv7w/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0009-traffic-arrow.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 01, 2023, 04:52:32 PM
Perhaps this Bell frame with 3D animation overlay will be of interest.
(https://i.imgur.com/MUgD7qQ.gif)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/3c/91/Y7dG06ST_o.gif)

I hope you don't mind me tagging this onto your exceptional 3D study.

Lovelady appears to be able to shift to his right quite a bit in one moment in the Hughes film. His head appears to be going in-and-out of shade.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 05:48:40 PM
LOL, if Mr. Bell had been standing somewhere completely different, you'd be on to a real winner here, Mr. Organ!

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNBw3MH3/Organ-Bell.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/qvKQBGrZ/Bell-doorway-wide-shot-smaller.jpg)

This is as comically inept as your claim that Redshirt Man in Bell is obviously NOT Lovelady but a black guy in a brown cardigan over a blue shirt! :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 05:50:46 PM
Mr. Lovelady's hand to Ms. Reese's right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tXqX965/Hackerott-bell-overlay-Lovelady-Reese-distance.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 01, 2023, 06:30:14 PM
LOL, if Mr. Bell had been standing somewhere completely different, you'd be on to a real winner here, Mr. Organ!

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNBw3MH3/Organ-Bell.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/qvKQBGrZ/Bell-doorway-wide-shot-smaller.jpg)

How does this undermine my graphic?

Quote
This is as comically inept as your claim that Redshirt Man in Bell is obviously NOT Lovelady but a black guy in a brown cardigan over a blue shirt! :D

Where did I say "obviously"?

Hackerott supplied the proper width and height for the doorway in the Bell film, something you failed to do, for how many dozens of pages. Your poor photo-interpretation "skills" with the shifting doorway dimensions made many think "Red Shirt" was further towards the centre of the doorway.

So the truth is the "Red Shirt" figure is not far out of place from where Lovelady was standing. He's the figure you're claiming is Oswald "drinking a Coke". LOL.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 06:51:22 PM
How does this undermine my graphic?

LOL, you've shown us how beautifully things would 'align' if Mr. Bell were standing here!  :D

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNBw3MH3/Organ-Bell.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/PrnWHVTL/Map-Dealey-Plaza-Organ-Bell-LOS.jpg)

Quote
Hackerott supplied the proper width and height for the doorway in the Bell film,

I am a BIG fan of Mr. Hackerott's work, but I'm afraid his reconstruction of Mr. Bell's POV and the doorway scene is off in some key respects, e.g.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tXqX965/Hackerott-bell-overlay-Lovelady-Reese-distance.gif)

We'll work it out, however, and when we've done so you will be just as embarrassed by this catastrophically bad Mittonesque 'analysis'-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/d0v9wHFQ/Organ-Bell-small.jpg)

------------as you now are by your hilarious claim that Redshirt Man in Bell is a black man wearing a brown cardigan over a blue shirt.

But by all means, Mr. Organ, keep lecturing me about 'poor photo-interpretation skills'---------your lack of self-awareness is always most entertaining!  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
It’s highly ironic that “Richard” of all people would be complaining about somebody making the exact same claims over and over. What do you expect to happen, indeed?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 01, 2023, 10:46:40 PM
LOL, you've shown us how beautifully things would 'align' if Mr. Bell were standing here!  :D

What perspective changes to the plane of the building's facade are that different from how it appears in Bell?

Quote
I am a BIG fan of Mr. Hackerott's work, but I'm afraid his reconstruction of Mr. Bell's POV and the doorway scene is off in some key respects, e.g.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tXqX965/Hackerott-bell-overlay-Lovelady-Reese-distance.gif)

Your comparison picture is a different scale than that of the still from Hackerott's 3D. How do we know that's Maddie's elbow? You once labelled a "head" what was the end of an elbow.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nrS46J7b/Bell-lovelady-head.jpg)

Quote
We'll work it out, however, and when we've done so you will be just as embarrassed by this catastrophically bad Mittonesque 'analysis'-------------

Well. Get started. BTW, what graphic by Mytton do you think is wrong?

Quote
------------as you now are by your hilarious claim that Redshirt Man in Bell is a black man wearing a brown cardigan over a blue shirt.

Who posted this color for "Red Shirt" while claiming the figure was far removed from where Lovelady stood?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD8pL3hD/Lovelady-Bell-Altgens-Davidson-CROP.jpg)

I didn't think anyone's photo-interpretation "skills" were as bad as Paul Ernst's, and the thread had been going for some years, so I figured your claims had some foundation. I then inquired about Lewis, expecting a polite answer. ( Link (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg143085.html#msg143085) )

Quote
But by all means, Mr. Organ, keep lecturing me about 'poor photo-interpretation skills'---------your lack of self-awareness is always most entertaining!  :D

Says the guy who couldn't figure out where the features on the doorway were in the Bell film and, from that, where "Red Shirt" was for over two years on this thread. ( Link (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg106102.html#msg106102) )

(https://images2.imgbox.com/e7/76/JbcdjzW8_o.jpg)  (https://images2.imgbox.com/bf/4a/mSkfPum4_o.jpg)

It seems clear to me that "Red Shirt" in Bell is simply Lovelady leaning or shifting to his right a small amount compared to his position in the Hughes film. The figure you claimed was "Oswald drinking a Coke" is Lovelady. No one saw Oswald on the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 10:50:02 PM
Mr. Lovelady's hand to Ms. Reese's right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tXqX965/Hackerott-bell-overlay-Lovelady-Reese-distance.gif)

And that's just the hand. What we see of Mr. Lovelady's left side comes over-------from Bell's POV-------as far as Ms. Reese's right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbVxN8S2/Lovelady-to-Reese.gif)

Obviously this is a very different story to that told here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6rWg7Hd/Hackerott-bell-overlay-frame-0011.jpg)

But that's not all Bell is telling us:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

Watch the downward & eastward movement of Mr. Lovelady's left hand. Then watch his head. Then watch the straightening up of his torso.

He is not moving his feet over to this new spot, for they are already there. He has been leaning into his right foot, and craning his neck to follow the limousine. And now he is returning to his previous upright posture--------------which, again from Bell's POV, has his left side as far east as Ms. Reese's elbow. If Mr. Bell were filming from a position facing straight ahead into the middle of the doorway, Mr. Lovelady's shoulder would be showing to the east of Ms. Reese's elbow.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 10:56:25 PM
Your comparison picture is a different scale than that of the still from Hackerott's 3D.

My comparison picture? That's Mr. Hackerott's own comparison picture, Mr. Organ.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqLXpWQ1/Hackerott-bell-frames.gif)

Oops!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on March 01, 2023, 11:37:35 PM
BTW, what graphic by Mytton do you think is wrong?

Hi Jerry, I hope you are well. My initial morphs were a bit sloppy and no doubt Ford will ignore my later gifs and post an earlier gif, yawn.
But besides Oswald on film indicating he was inside at the time we have Lovelady's "blacked out" shirt which is actually nothing of the kind and we can clearly see the "blacked out" stripes on his shirt and therefore we should see Ford's Oswald somewhere behind but as expected Oswald isnt there because as history has recorded he was on the 6th floor.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvPFY4Xf/love-shirt-new2ca.gif)

I rest my case. Thumb1:

JohnM

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 11:44:30 PM
Hi Jerry, I hope you are well. My initial morphs were a bit sloppy and no doubt Ford will ignore my later gifs and post an earlier gif, yawn.
But besides Oswald on film indicating he was inside at the time we have Lovelady's "blacked out" shirt which is actually nothing of the kind and we can clearly see the "blacked out" stripes on his shirt and therefore we should see Ford's Oswald somewhere behind but as expected Oswald isnt there because as history has recorded he was on the 6th floor.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvPFY4Xf/love-shirt-new2ca.gif)

I rest my case. Thumb1:

JohnM

Hello Mr. Mytton! I do hope you will grace us with more of your Supah-Doopah-Magic-Gifs---------exposing your disinformation techniques was such an enjoyable recreation!  Thumb1:

While you're here, allow me to thank you for helping with the exoneration of Mr. Oswald: Reply #2179

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 01, 2023, 11:52:24 PM
Which theme throws up a simpler explanation than the one I offered a few pages back for why the fake shadow in Wiegman had to start with Mr. Lovelady's right side rather than just with Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN---------------the undoctored frames showed with painful clarity the pattern of Mr. Lovelady's shirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTHqTH49/mytton-lovelady-contrast-striped-shirt.gif)

 Thumb1:

Bumped by way of tribute to Mr. Mytton!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on March 02, 2023, 12:20:01 AM
https://www.mhanational.org/finding-therapy
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 12:22:59 AM
https://www.mhanational.org/finding-therapy

Good on you, Mr. Smith-------we all wish you well on your mental health journey. And thank you for pointing your fellow Warren Gullibles to what could be a vital resource at this unprecedentedly difficult time.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Richard Smith on March 02, 2023, 12:31:41 AM
Good on you, Mr. Smith-------we all wish you well on your mental health journey. And thank you for pointing your fellow Warren Gullibles to what could be a vital resource at this unprecedentedly difficult time.

 Thumb1:

Contact them with your "evidence" and let us know their opinion.  Say hello to Fetterman.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 01:23:43 AM
Friends, if some wide-eyed loon said to you 'Billy Lovelady had an illegal gun-selling rap to his name, he was no good, and he shot JFK', how would you react? Why, you'd back away and make a mental note to avoid that kook's company. Anyone who thinks a man, however murky his past, who was standing on the front steps for the P. Parade could have shot JFK must be out of their mind.

Well, such is the healthy reaction henceforth to any kook who tells you 'Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK'. Because Mr. Oswald is no more a candidate for sixth-floor shooter than is Mr. Lovelady.

Here's Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyfYfKLM/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

Here's Mr. Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCHsH5LT/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 02:40:35 PM


But that's not all Bell is telling us:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

Watch the downward & eastward movement of Mr. Lovelady's left hand. Then watch his head. Then watch the straightening up of his torso.

He is not moving his feet over to this new spot, for they are already there. He has been leaning into his right foot, and craning his neck to follow the limousine. And now he is returning to his previous upright posture

Alternatively, of course, Mr. Lovelady is moving down a step-------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyfYfKLM/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

-------------------just as Wiegman shows him doing several seconds later, only there his head has been craning in the other direction (to keep the limousine in view):

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRXkYwnM/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

Same movement from 1st step down from landing to 2nd step down from landing (Mr. Lovelady having gone back up a step between Bell and Altgens/Wiegman).

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 03:23:34 PM
Same movement from 1st step down from landing to 2nd step down from landing (Mr. Lovelady having gone back up a step between Bell and Altgens/Wiegman).

 Thumb1:

Mr. Oswald, meanwhile, does not move around-------------------he just stays standing there, drinking his Coke:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCHsH5LT/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/SRXkYwnM/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 07:49:34 PM
Alternatively, of course, Mr. Lovelady is moving down a step-------------------

However!

If we consider (with reference to the window-gridwork east of the entranceway) the height of Mr. Lovelady's head as we glimpse it in the first frames here--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyfYfKLM/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/250Kwmxt/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

-------------and if we compare it with the height of his head here in Wiegman------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/3rvty2zV/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0002.jpg)

------------we can determine that the FORMER option seems the correct one, i.e.

Mr. Lovelady in Bell is two steps down and has been leaning over to his right and craning his neck to look east at the limousine. This has lowered his head but raised his left hand.

With apologies to Mr. Hackerott for taking the liberty of decontextualizing & flipping an older image of his, this gives a pretty useful approximation of what we're seeing in the first frames of the Bell gif-------------with the difference that Mr. Lovelady in Bell does not appear to be leaning forward (just sideways):

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2zSXRJN/Hackerott-Lovelady-flipped.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/fyfYfKLM/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

The latter frames in the Bell gif show Mr. Lovelady standing up straight again-------------hence the descent of his left hand.

And that original standing position puts only one obstacle between Mr. Lovelady's torso and Mr. Bell's camera lens: foliage.

Good luck getting Redshirt Man in Hughes/Towner from this-------

(https://i.postimg.cc/6pHtgsWk/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)

--------to this-------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyfYfKLM/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

----------in way, way, way less than lickety-spit. It's a hopeless cause, folks-----------for the simple reason that Mr. Lovelady is not Redshirt Man in Hughes/Towner!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 10:08:41 PM
Your comparison picture is a different scale than that of the still from Hackerott's 3D.

Mr. Organ's embarrassing self-own does of course correctly identify the problem with the 3D reconstruction. The scale isn't quite right (with things in Bell being bigger than in the 3D version)---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqLXpWQ1/Hackerott-bell-frames.gif)

--------------because an honest but erroneous assumption has been made that this (pink box) is the right edge of the west column base:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsMWg2Yj/Bell-base-not.jpg)

This has let to a certain squeezing in of the doorway in order to fit that assumption, with some of the resulting obvious distortions I have been pointing out.

Now! How wide west does the actual doorway in Bell go? Well, the below is I think--------with all due caution respecting angles-------quite suggestive (marks in orange are mine!):

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTxcbjqZ/Organ-TSBD-column-base.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/nzJztCwX/Bell-doorway-column-base.jpg)

Quite by happy chance, this suggests a location for the west edge of the west column (NOT column base) just where we see two unmoving [i.e. non-foliage] white spots in Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/638NgwB8/Bell-west-column.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/qq4bRnRQ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

This of course would explain how Mr. Lovelady's left side can be appearing to Bell's POV just as far west as Ms. Reese's raised right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbVxN8S2/Lovelady-to-Reese.gif)

Mr. Lovelady is a lot further east than the 3D graphic has him.

This in turn explains why Mr. Lovelady is blocked by Ms. Toni Glover in Hughes:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2023, 10:17:10 PM
Mr. Lovelady is a lot further east than the 3D graphic has him.

This in turn explains why Mr. Lovelady is blocked by Ms. Toni Glover in Hughes

 Thumb1:

HOWEVER! Now for my favorite bit (courtesy of the longer clip from Hughes that Mr. Organ has so kindly posted).......................

Look at this clip closely and you will see a detail that puts an end to all debate:

MR. LOVELADY LEANS OVER FOR A MOMENT AND SHOWS US THE RIGHT EDGE OF HIS RED SHIRT!

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

Two red shirts on the west side of the doorway------------just like I've been saying all along

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 12:34:11 AM
Keep your eye on the area just left of the girl on the pedestal and----------wait for it...........

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXf30Cwb/64013f967565e641466426.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 01:28:08 AM
Now you don't see him........... now you do............now you don't

(https://i.postimg.cc/yx0g3xLR/ezgif-com-gif-maker-2.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on March 03, 2023, 01:37:01 AM
Mr. Lovelady's hand to Ms. Reese's right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tXqX965/Hackerott-bell-overlay-Lovelady-Reese-distance.gif)
About the wonky vertical scaling, I must have used the wrong 'master" frames to generate the initial fading animation I posted. This animation has better registration with the breeze blocks and doorway. I'll have a talk with the quality control guy in the morning  >:(
(https://i.imgur.com/MV4K8pS.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 01:39:06 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYn39RMx/ezgif-com-gif-maker-3.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 02:12:35 AM
About the wonky vertical scaling, I must have used the wrong 'master" frames to generate the initial fading animation I posted. This animation has better registration with the breeze blocks and doorway. I'll have a talk with the quality control guy in the morning  >:(
(https://i.imgur.com/MV4K8pS.gif)

Haha, and thanks indeed for this, Mr. Hackerott------------I think we're inching closer to that boring place known as Common Ground!  ;)

While I appreciate the human figures in your 3D model are not programmable for verisimilitude, is there any way of increasing the (how do I put this politely?) girth of Ms. Reese? The spatial relationship between her right elbow and Mr. Lovelady's left side is critical.

More importantly, Mr. Lovelady himself now needs to go quite a ways east (at the very least as far as the yellow arrow shows), and his posture needs to reflect the fact that (in Bell) his left arm is down in front of his body, rather than forming the easternmost part of it----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/nz9rDr3k/Hackerott-bell-overlay2-marked.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/RV7k0mLn/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 02:20:00 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYn39RMx/ezgif-com-gif-maker-3.gif)

What's nice is that, even at this distance, Mr. Hughes' camera is picking up the difference in tone between Mr. Oswald's shirt and Mr. Lovelady's

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJNG8GrP/LHO-shirt-speer.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/FRb6HgjX/Lovelady-shirt-70s.jpg)

This moment in Hughes is literally the only time anywhere we get a color glimpse of their shirts together.

Indeed, this is the only time anywhere we ever get to see a color image of Mr. Oswald wearing the shirt he brought to work that day..............

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 03:18:21 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

It's quite something to reflect that this man, casually taking a drink of Coke on the front steps, will soon be presented to the world as having been------------at this very moment------------readying himself to fire shots from the sixth floor of the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 03:22:56 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

Also worth noting that this color footage is showing us something quite extraordinary: Pres. Kennedy and Mr. Oswald in the same frame
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 10:29:32 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

Mr. Oswald's body language here is interesting. He takes a drink of his Coke and then looks down to his right, lifts his head back up, and then (very quickly) takes another look down.

Friends, I got this all wrong---------it's only the sudden cut back to the first gif frame. Mr. Oswald is just taking a drink from his Coke.

I've deleted the post in question to avoid confusion, and edited the following post!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 11:56:42 AM
Now!

Those who wish to go on believing in the second-floor lunchroom encounter are perfectly free to do so. That fiction was designed to meet just the eventuality that has transpired here (six damn decades later!): proof of Mr. Oswald's front steps alibi coming to light.

Law enforcement knew within a very few hours of the assassination that Mr. Oswald had a front steps alibi. They knew he was telling the truth:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0j6Vs5M3/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg)

 At first they were going to go all in on the Tippit murder, and nail Mr. Oswald as an accomplice in the JFK murder. But a political decision was made on high: LHO must be identified as the lone wolf assassin of Dealey Plaza. This edict meant that there was no way he could be allowed to live and stand trial--------------the case against him as the sixth-floor shooter was just too pathetically weak.

Put yourselves in the shoes of those tasked with putting Mr. Oswald up in the SN window. They had to
--------------suppress his claim in interrogation to have gone outside to watch P. Parade
--------------put a substitute, fake story in his mouth about his movements around the time of the motorcade
--------------have him seen inside the building just after the shooting in a place where EITHER a man who has just been up on six OR a man who has just been out front could have made his way to: second-floor lunchroom
--------------give him to believe that his claimed alibi had checked out, but that he was on the hook as an accomplice (if you make a man believe his alibi is confirmed you neutralize the risk of his shouting it to the newsmen)
--------------control any available image of the front doorway that gave the game away
--------------pressurize Officer Baker, Mr. Billy Lovelady and others to give false recollections

They had three major things in their favor in all this:

1. Mr. Billy Lovelady, a man with a passing resemblance to Mr. Oswald, had also worn a red shirt over a white tshirt in the doorway: he could take Mr. Oswald's place where necessary

2. Mr. Oswald, not being one for social small-talk, had left it until the very last moment to go out front, and had left the steps very quickly after the shots: few will have noticed him, their entire attention being on the motorcade, the loud bangs and the ensuing mayhem

3. Mr. Oswald was dead.

However, even with all these cover-up efforts and advantages, and more, they knew just how vulnerable the official fairytale was to falsification. Just one citizen who had a camera in Dealey Plaza that day could come forward at any moment and blow everything up. There had to be reputational insurance for the 'investigating' authorities in case that happened: the lunchroom story was a key element in this insurance scheme. 'Shucks, we came to the wrong conclusion about where Oswald had come from.........'

The whole Altgens-Doorwayman controversy must have caused them to chuckle. Here were the conspiracy theorists going crazy trying to turn Mr. Billy Lovelady into Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald, oblivious to the fact that the real Mr. Oswald was somewhere else on the west side of that doorway! Let them at it--------------they're just going to make fools of themselves, and bring ridicule down on anyone else who might in the future try to put Mr. Oswald in the doorway.

Some folks have argued that Officer Baker and Mr. Truly's description of Mr. Oswald in the lunchroom as not out of breath, not agitated, not sweating is an odd way to incriminate the guy. They are missing the point: the lunchroom encounter had to be EQUALLY consistent with Mr. Oswald's having just come down from six and his having just walked up from the front entrance.

Some folks have argued that the second-floor lunchroom is a lousy place to put Mr. Oswald if you want to incriminate him. Why not put him walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building? Again, these folks are missing the point: an Oswald walking away from the rear stairway several floors up would NOT be EQUALLY consistent with his having just come down from six and his having just walked up from the front entrance.

The lunchroom story, in short, was a far from ideal way of putting Mr. Oswald inside the building just after the shooting---------------but no other realistic location offered itself.

Too many Warren Critics, in pointing with excitement to the lunchroom incident as indicative of Mr. Oswald's innocence, have shown that they have merely taken the desired bait. The fact that so many Warren Critics have over the years joined the Warren Gullibles on Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps, and have been viscerally hostile to the research effort of those who have now finally succeeded in proving Mr. Oswald's front steps alibi, is a sad testament to the effectiveness of the cover-up 'investigating' authorities' choice of the lunchroom for a fictionalized LHO-Baker-Truly encounter.

Thankfully, however, Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps is now toast:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJrpn5BP/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 12:40:38 PM
I believe Mr. Frazier is here coming as close as he feels he can to telling us where Mr. Oswald really was:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTxMnQH8/Frazier-in-Prayer-Man-position-marked-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TPfRd0MV/Frazier-pm-location2-marked.jpg)(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

Neither he nor Mr. Roy Edward Lewis------------two key witnesses still living--------------is actually necessary to proving Mr. Oswald's already established front steps alibi, but it would be good if they could find the courage to confirm what the visual record already tells us. What a heavy burden to have to carry all these years!

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 12:48:27 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

I'm doubly grateful to Mr. Jerry Organ for having posted this longer Hughes clip than the one I had been working off. Not alone does it give us an all-important glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's shirt, it also clearly shows the head of a person BEHIND Mr. Oswald over by the wall. This person is PrayerWOMAN, who is up on the landing and whom we will soon be seeing properly in Darnell. Mr. Oswald is PrayerMAN in Wiegman, with a shadow covering his entire person as fake as that which obscures Mr. Lovelady's right side. Mr. Oswald/PrayerMAN in Wiegman is standing in the same spot as Hughes shows him.

Mr. Organ can, along with Mr. John Mytton, take legitimate pride in the material contribution he has made to the definitive exoneration of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald!

 ;D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 03, 2023, 09:19:23 PM
What's nice is that, even at this distance, Mr. Hughes' camera is picking up the difference in tone between Mr. Oswald's shirt and Mr. Lovelady's

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJNG8GrP/LHO-shirt-speer.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/FRb6HgjX/Lovelady-shirt-70s.jpg)

That flattened-out shirt would appear pink in sunlight. Here's Lovelady with his shirt. Would have to seen in sunlight in a color picture to best determine how it could appear in the Hughes film.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_pocket.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_pocket.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_pocket.jpg) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_pocket.jpg)

Quote
This moment in Hughes is literally the only time anywhere we get a color glimpse of their shirts together.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)
What I posted
(GIF from search)
 
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYn39RMx/ezgif-com-gif-maker-3.gif)
Ford's version with hue and saturation
extremes, and filter-effect: Maybe
"noise" (sparkles to simulate film
grain) or artificial "sharpening"

I don't see another red shirt. Please arrow or circle what you're claiming. On the best single frame. Unfiltered and untampered.

Here's the Hughes film frames in a more pure form ...

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_292-tile.jpg)

Quote
Indeed, this is the only time anywhere we ever get to see a color image of Mr. Oswald wearing the shirt he brought to work that day..............

 Thumb1:

I don't see a pink shirt on the steps.  ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 09:42:28 PM
I don't see another red shirt.

 :D :D :D

Translation: 'Damn, I wish I hadn't posted that longer Hughes GIF. I'm running out of ways to gaslight here...........'

(https://i.postimg.cc/43NGhK5Z/Straws.gif)'

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 03, 2023, 11:04:50 PM
Friends, now that Mr. Lovelady has been distinguished from Mr. Oswald on the front steps, we can finally track his following of the progress of the limousine:

1. Hughes: Mr. Lovelady is on the landing or one step down: as the limousine comes onto Elm St., he momentarily leans over to his right to see around the east doorway wall. Watch the space just left of the girl on the pedestal and wait for the brief but unmistakeable appearance of Mr. Lovelady's red shirt:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/g25FtYbb/ezgif-com-gif-maker-5.gif)
[Credit for GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

Seeing at once that it's no good, he takes a step or two down, in time for his appearance in..................

2. Bell: Mr. Lovelady again leans over to his right, and then, as the limousine comes in front of the entranceway, straightens up again:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0SdwWQn/ezgif-com-resize-1.gif)

As the limousine proceeds down Elm St., Mr. Lovelady steps back up a step for a higher vantage point as shown in...........

3. Wiegman: Mr. Lovelady is leaning over to his left now, looking down Elm............ then he takes a step back down to the second step from landing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRXkYwnM/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

Less than half a minute later..............

4. Darnell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4qS0PWf/ezgif-com-resize.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 04, 2023, 01:18:44 PM
From 29 Feb '64 FBI report:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqsM5kdy/Lovelady-FBI-29-Feb-left-side-doorway.jpg)

From 19 March '64 FBI report:

(https://i.postimg.cc/yN7ztxDC/Lovelady-FBI-March-against-wall.jpg)

Mr. Lovelady is correctly identifying himself as the man whose face is in the doorway in Altgens. But...............

-------------------on the far left side [as the viewer sees it] of the doorway?
-------------------to the far right [for a person standing in the doorway] against the wall of the entranceway?

Complete and utter nonsense, as Mr. Lovelady and FBI know full well.

But why not just state the truth: Mr. Altgens' angle and use of telephoto lens give the false impression that Mr. Lovelady is over by the west wall?
Why not just clarify that he is up on the next-to-top step, over near the center rail?
Where would be the harm in that?

Answer:

Mr. Lovelady must cover two bases at the same time:
1. Being Billy Nolan Lovelady----------------not standing over by the west wall
2. Being Lee Harvey Oswald---------------standing over by the west wall

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 04, 2023, 01:47:52 PM
Friends, the Warren Gullibles are completely checkmated by the analysis I have laid out in the foregoing pages. The pathetic attempts at gaslighting from Mr. Jerry Organ
--------------Blue is white/white is blue..........
--------------Redshirt Man in Bell is Lewis/Redshirt Man in Bell is Lovelady............
--------------Hackerott's 3D graphic is exceptional/Hackerott's 3D graphic is not to scale..........
--------------Let's pretend the flapping object in Towner is Lovelady's shirt
--------------The top version below (for which I deliberately used a non-relevant frame) is clearer and more useful than the bottom version (which does contain the relevant frames and which I really wish I hadn't posted):
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFHSC2wt/Hughes-HD-doorway.jpg)(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

.........etc., etc.
)

only illustrate how utterly helpless these smug emeriti from the McAdams Echo Chamber are in the face of the visual evidence proving Mr. Oswald's presence on the front steps.

Don't believe me?

Here's a quck & fun way of calling their bluff and exposing their intellectual dishonesty:

Ask them to explain the shadow down Mr. Lovelady's right side in this Wiegman frame------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/3rvty2zV/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0002.jpg)

And then-------------------watch them run away in terror, every single time!

Each time they chicken out of answering this simple question, what they are telling us is that they are lost in cognitive dissonance:
a) No, I can't explain that shadow
b) Yes, that shadow can easily be explained

(https://i.postimg.cc/T33sD4Hg/confused-dog.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 04, 2023, 04:15:43 PM
The flapping object in the doorway in Towner just east of Messrs. Roy Edward Lewis & Lee Harvey Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhKtZ8DD/ezgif-com-resize-2.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/rsNpbLbM/ezgif-com-gif-maker-6.gif)

This object in Bell is NOT moving in concert with the unified movement of the foliage. And its movement is much too quick.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2023, 12:15:34 PM
This flash is in an interesting place..................

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRJ4T5mH/belltowner-doorway-flash.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NzsdSZR/Belltowner-flash-larger.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhKtZ8DD/ezgif-com-resize-2.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 05, 2023, 01:59:14 PM
Screenshot from The Lost Bullet, showing digitally restored Towner footage:

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3vPCbZ1/Lost-Bullet-doorway-flash-marked.jpg)

Cf:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NzsdSZR/Belltowner-flash-larger.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2023, 01:39:52 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NzsdSZR/Belltowner-flash-larger.gif)

This intriguingly localized flash makes one honestly wonder if amongst the effects taken from Mr. Oswald's Beckley room-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyhCfQ6J/OSWALD-Beckley-camera.jpg)

----------------might not have been an item that contained hard evidence of the only shots the absurdly accused Mr. Oswald actually took that day from the Depository building..................

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwMQRjnp/Oswald-camera.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2023, 03:50:18 AM
From No More Silence by Mr. Larry Sneed:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yqxn4X2p/Oswald-Beckley-cameras-Sneed.jpg)

We can easily identify one of these cameras in the photo of Mr. Oswald's Beckley effects. Was any Beckley camera officially listed by the 'investigating' authorities?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2023, 06:34:52 PM
Friends, now that Mr. Lovelady has been distinguished from Mr. Oswald on the front steps, [.............]

Mr. Roy Edward Lewis (in front of Mr. Oswald) raising his left arm to wave at Pres. Kennedy as he comes onto Elm St.:

(https://i.postimg.cc/nrZ3gB8D/Lewis-Hughes-arm.gif)
[Credit for source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 06, 2023, 11:43:04 PM
Friends, the proven fact of Mr. Oswald's front steps alibi allows us to make sense of DPD's especially hostile treatment of Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier.

1. Mr. Oswald really does go outside to watch the P. Parade: we see him in the Hughes film

2. Mr. Oswald is arrested and, in his first interrogation, tells Captain Fritz his 12:30pm whereabouts---------->PANIC!

3. Mr. Oswald is able to name three male co-workers who were also on the west side of the entranceway and who will be able to vouch for him:
          a) Mr. Bill Shelley (whom Mr. Oswald has just seen in the Homicide Office)
          b) Mr. Billy Lovelady (ditto)
          c) Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier

4. Mr. Shelley's affidavit contains a sly workaround to the fact that he can confirm to DPD that Mr. Oswald was in the doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zLBf7Mj/Shelley-not-see-lee.jpg)

Notice what's missing? That's right: I did not see him at the time of the shooting

5. Mr. Lovelady's affidavit makes no mention of Mr. Oswald, but his 11/22 FBI interview reports contains a sly workaround to the fact that he can confirm that Mr. Oswald was in the doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCsz2F36/Lovelady-LHO-last-sighting-FBI-11-22.jpg)

Notice what's missing? That's right: I did not see him at the time of the shooting

6. Two of the three men named by Mr. Oswald are, therefore, controllable by the 'investigating' authorities. There will of course be more work to do on this pair, but the problem they pose can be contained. By contrast, the third man---------Mr. Frazier----------it still at large. This is extremely concerning: he, perhaps more than any other person, represents a grave threat to the case against the suspect. He MUST be brought in and subjected to intense pressure to keep his mouth shut about the all-important fact of Mr. Oswald's alibi.

7. This explains the otherwise curious fact that the man who happened to give the suspect a ride to work that morning (something he has done plenty times before) becomes far more of a person of interest than anyone else, even than the man who gave him the job at the building or the people from whose home the suspect is alleged to have picked up the rifle. Mr. Frazier is hunted down, arrested and kept in custody until after midnight. The reason Captain Fritz gives him the heavy treatment in interrogation is not that he believes him to be the accused's accomplice------------no, it's that he knows he can, unless intimidated into silence, destroy the case against the accused.

8. Only one other Depository man will get anything close to the kind of heat Mr. Frazier gets: Mr. Joe Molina. And guess where he was standing at the time of the motorcade....................

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 01:12:30 AM
As we have known since 2019, when Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report for the first interrogation was sensationally unearthed by Mr. Bart Kamp, Mr. Oswald stated his alibi: he "went outside to watch P. Parade". His claim was suppressed and false words were put in his mouth (via the officially published interrogation reports). Yes, they were that scared of it.

Det. Elmer Boyd was present for several of Mr. Oswald's interrogations. Go to 20:10 here and watch Mr. Boyd's hilariously shifty response to the interviewer's simple question:


They knew, folks. And so, finally, do we:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)
[Credit for GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

As I predicted, the poor Warren Gullibles are pretending like nothing has happened...............

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rq5G2m25/Gus-Face-Off.gif)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on March 07, 2023, 01:20:54 AM
283 pages of your obsession. Nothing resembling the bloat of it except Doyle acting out his symptoms.


https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.2000.html
Pages: 1 ... 248 249 [250] 251
Author Topic: Prayer Woman  (Read 458997 times)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 01:30:28 AM
283 pages of your obsession. Nothing resembling the bloat of it except Doyle acting out his symptoms.

~Grin~

Question!

Why has Mr. Tom Scully always shown such hostility to the (now successful) research project to establish Mr. Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the assassination?

Answer!

Because Mr. Tom Scully------who believes that Mr. Oswald's location at the time of the assassination is an insignificant detail next to the fact that the man who designed the white company lettering over the Depository front entrance had a second cousin thrice removed who knew someone in high school who once dated the brother of one of the nurses at Parkland who was out sick 11/22/63 with a stubborn verruca------cannot claim any of the credit!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on March 07, 2023, 01:34:37 AM
Alan replied to my post in just under ten minutes.

Does he live inside this thread? Is this thread a cry for caregiver intervention?

(https://tv-fanatic-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--9YZwGfmF--/t_xlarge_l/cs_srgb,f_auto,fl_strip_profile.lossy,q_auto:420/v1675812104/spencer-and-alex-on-the-upended-tugboat-1923.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 01:44:21 AM
Alan replied to my post in just under ten minutes.

Does he live inside this thread? Is this thread a cry for caregiver intervention?

Keep searching those genealogical archives, Mr. Scully, at this rate you should have the case cracked by 2123!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on March 07, 2023, 02:03:27 AM
Keep searching those genealogical archives, Mr. Scully, at this rate you should have the case cracked by 2123!  Thumb1:

'Kay, thanks!

google.com
https://books.google.com › books (https://books.google.com/books?id=pJ9PDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT349&lpg=PT349&dq="coup+in+dallas:"+scully+lemann&source=bl&ots=fp3nzkux2l&sig=ACfU3U22el3Jt8c7hrQtQjlUHr5LcS7QHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7krbA3Mj9AhWslGoFHRWvBGkQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q="coup%20in%20dallas%3A"%20scully%20lemann&f=false)
H. P. Albarelli · 2021 · ‎History
"Monroe & Lemann law firm handled the regional interests of the Whitney dynasty. ... researcher Tom Scully established beyond doubt that Stephen Lemann and Garrison were closely related by marriage..."

Mary's Mosaic: The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, ...books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mary_s_Mosaic/OGOCDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=mary%27s+mosaic+mitchell+scully&pg=PT348&printsec=frontcover)
Peter Janney · 2016
FOUND INSIDE
Discussing his critical post of Mary's Mosaic in an email to a University of Georgia law professor, Scully ... 2 Mr. Scully focused his attack on the conclusions I had presented about the prosecution witness William L. Mitchell, ...

A Secret Order: Investigating the High Strangeness and ...books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q="high+strangeness"+several+seasoned+assassination+researchers&hl=en&gl=us&biw=1280&bih=602&tbm=bks&ei=nqAGZP-xGfqZwbkPiPyjiAE&ved=0ahUKEwj_-OSC4sj9AhX6TDABHQj-CBEQ4dUDCAg&uact=5&oq="high+strangeness"+several+seasoned+assassination+researchers&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LWJvb2tzEANQAFgAYPUCaABwAHgAgAFOiAFOkgEBMZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-books)
H. Albarelli, Jr. · 2013
FOUND INSIDE
Investigating the High Strangeness and Synchronicity in the JFK Assassination H. Albarelli, Jr. ... Several seasoned assassination researchers, including John Simkin and Tom Scully of the JFK Education Forum, discovered that Proctor ...

Our Man in Haiti: George de Mohrenschildt and the CIA in the ...books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q=Fight+Back+%26+Win+What+to+Do+when+You+Feel+Cheated+Or+Wronged+thomas+scully&tbm=bks&hl=en&gl=us&ei=w5wGZK63K6Cs5NoP7K-8oAo&ved=0ahUKEwjupKWs3sj9AhUgFlkFHewXD6QQsJ4FCAM)
Joan Mellen · 2012
FOUND INSIDE
... kindness in sharing information with me: Anselmo Aliegro Duran; Rolandito Masferrer Betancourt; thelate Martin Xavier Casey; John Quirk; Edward Ridgeway (“Jed”) Harris; Douglas Valentine; Thomas J. Scully; Nathaniel Heidenheimer; ...

Fight Back & Win: What to Do when You Feel Cheated Or Wronged books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q=Fight+Back+%26+Win+What+to+Do+when+You+Feel+Cheated+Or+Wronged+thomas+scully&tbm=bks&hl=en&gl=us&ei=w5wGZK63K6Cs5NoP7K-8oAo&ved=0ahUKEwjupKWs3sj9AhUgFlkFHewXD6QQsJ4FCAM)
2002 · ‎Snippet view
FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 5
What to Do when You Feel Cheated Or Wronged ... Senior Designer Martha Grossman Illustrator Philip St. Jacques Copyeditor Nancy Stabile Proofreaders Susan Congor Nancy Wallace Humes Thomas Scully Karen Tsakos READER'S DIGEST ILLUSTRATED ...
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 02:13:12 AM
So where do the Warren Gullibles go from here?

Do they engage on the question of the shadow down Mr. Lovelady's side in Wiegman?
Nope----------------they know they'll lose that debate.

Do they try to argue that Redshirt Man over by the west wall in Hughes is Mr. Lovelady?
Nope---------------they know that will just bring them into a world of trouble, just as it did for poor Mr. Organ.

What's left to them? Arguing that Redshirt Man over by the west wall in Hughes is a black man? Or........... a woman?
I honestly wouldn't put it past them at this stage!

They're toast.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 02:14:35 AM
'Kay, thanks!

google.com
https://books.google.com › books (https://books.google.com/books?id=pJ9PDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT349&lpg=PT349&dq="coup+in+dallas:"+scully+lemann&source=bl&ots=fp3nzkux2l&sig=ACfU3U22el3Jt8c7hrQtQjlUHr5LcS7QHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7krbA3Mj9AhWslGoFHRWvBGkQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q="coup%20in%20dallas%3A"%20scully%20lemann&f=false)
H. P. Albarelli · 2021 · ‎History
"Monroe & Lemann law firm handled the regional interests of the Whitney dynasty. ... researcher Tom Scully established beyond doubt that Stephen Lemann and Garrison were closely related by marriage..."

Mary's Mosaic: The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, ...books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mary_s_Mosaic/OGOCDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=mary%27s+mosaic+mitchell+scully&pg=PT348&printsec=frontcover)
Peter Janney · 2016
FOUND INSIDE
Discussing his critical post of Mary's Mosaic in an email to a University of Georgia law professor, Scully ... 2 Mr. Scully focused his attack on the conclusions I had presented about the prosecution witness William L. Mitchell, ...


Fight Back & Win: What to Do when You Feel Cheated Or Wronged books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q=Fight+Back+%26+Win+What+to+Do+when+You+Feel+Cheated+Or+Wronged+thomas+scully&tbm=bks&hl=en&gl=us&ei=w5wGZK63K6Cs5NoP7K-8oAo&ved=0ahUKEwjupKWs3sj9AhUgFlkFHewXD6QQsJ4FCAM)
2002 · ‎Snippet view
FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 5
What to Do when You Feel Cheated Or Wronged ... Senior Designer Martha Grossman Illustrator Philip St. Jacques Copyeditor Nancy Stabile Proofreaders Susan Congor Nancy Wallace Humes Thomas Scully Karen Tsakos READER'S DIGEST ILLUSTRATED ...

I rest my case: textbook narcissism
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on March 07, 2023, 02:31:31 AM
I rest my case: textbook narcissism

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2156.msg58544.html#msg58544
August 18, 2019
"...I discovered this three weeks ago and posted it on another forum on July 28th. Despite 1100 page views of that thread since then, save for one reply, quoted below, no interest has been shown, presumably because
there is such high regard for Armstrong as interpreted by Hargrove and Josephs.... (confirmation bias induced disinterest?)

(Donald) Norton's nickname is "red". He used it as the name of his fishing products and services business..."

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldDonaldOnorton51stAnniv021419.jpg)

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2613.msg96505.html#msg96505
August 7, 2020
"...Baloney, Michael! an SS agent retrieved the yellow PMO on Saturday evening, 11/23, receiving it to the home of Mr. Marks, a Post office executive, who received it from an employee of the Arlington, VA archive. David Joseph went on BlackOp radio to claim that employee did not exist. I presented this to silence him...."
(https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231524im_/http://jfk.education/images/RobertHjacksonMoneyOrder.jpg)


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&relPageId=120&search=marks_and%20jackson
Bill Shelley - Prayer Man

Prayer Man website
http://www.prayer-man.com › tsbd › bill-shelley (https://www.google.com/search?q=scully+yearbook+photo+william+hoyt+shelley&hl=en&gl=us&biw=1280&bih=602&ei=i6EGZICpB6OxqtsP8dqH-AM&ved=0ahUKEwjAmtTz4sj9AhWjmGoFHXHtAT8Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=scully+yearbook+photo+william+hoyt+shelley&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCAAQogQyBwgAEB4QogQyBQgAEKIEMgUIABCiBDoKCAAQHhCiBBCwAzoICAAQogQQsAM6CgghEKABEMMEEAo6CAghEKABEMMESgQIQRgBUN4JWLIaYNonaAFwAHgAgAHgAYgBuQWSAQUyLjIuMZgBAKABAcgBAsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp)
William Hoyt Shelley was born in Gunther, Tx. He attended Crozier High School during WW2. Crozier High School Year book. Original find by Tom Scully.

avalonlibrary.net
https://avalonlibrary.net › ebooks (https://www.google.com/search?q=deeppoliticsforum.com+donald+"tom+scully"&hl=en&gl=us&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ0ZfM48j9AhWqlWoFHTkvDzEQ_AUoAHoECAEQAg&biw=1280&bih=602&dpr=1.5#ip=1)
PDF page 17 of 294
Jun 19, 1975 — 4 Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD, “Pursuing Truth on the Kennedy Assassinations,” 2012: ... 47 Tom Scully, “Deaths of Witnesses,” 3 January 2009, ...

Ms. Collins also established that shortly after Ruby silenced Oswald, Irv Kupcinet telephoned a fellow
Chicagoan, long-time Mob-connected Paul “Red” Dorfman, who was vacationing in Palm Springs,
California, at the same time as Karyn, Irv’s daughter. Kupcinet specifically asked Dorfman what he
thought about Ruby’s silencing of Oswald.
46 As veteran JFK researcher Tom Scully notes, whether it was
distraction by design or not, the same result was achieved: Kup’s columns never mentioned Jack Ruby’s
links to the Chicago Mob. He didn’t write about the assassination until being infuriated by Oliver Stone’s
film, JFK. Kupcinet simply stuck to the scripted story that it was Oswald who shot Kennedy—period.
If Paul Dorfman was giving Irv Kupcinet a message in reaction to Kupcinet’s call to him about Ruby, by killing
Karyn Kupcinet, it worked because Kupcinet stopped asking questions or including any mention of Ruby in
his columns after November 25, 1963.
47

DVP's JFK ARCHIVES: 10/1/15

Blogger
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com › 2015/10 (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/)
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID: Another "Money Order" addendum: Now we have an incredible find made by Tom Scully (which Scully posted at the aaj forum ...

The Santa Fe New Mexican
https://www.santafenewmexican.com › News › Local News
Aug 21, 2021 — McMillan brought Marina to Santa Fe, where McMillan's cousin, David C. Davenport, lived. They were here for two months in 1964.
https://archive.is/esTuB = www.tomscully.com

Link to description of (https://jfkfacts.org/bill-oreillys-jfk-fib-was-exposed-by-reporters-audio-tape/#comment-796118) Ballen's book,
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DavenportCIAsamBallen.jpg)

https://web.archive.org/web/20180117224235/http://jfk.education/
"Clark Clifford's links to 1964's Priscilla & Marina and 1968 "Clean for Gene" McCarthy campaign
Submitted by Admin on Sun, 07/05/2015 - 15:38
Greg, I presented some original coincidences. Two separate sets intersecting where Rita Chapowicki Merthan, longtime William Harvey secretary, and her husband Larry meet Clark Clifford's partner Tom Finney and Finney's best bud, Tom McCoy, inside the Clean for Gene campaign.. Along the way it comes out that Clifford's uncle is Jerome Hastings and McCoy's wife is Priscilla Livingston Johnson who John Newman wrote about. Point is there is much we still do know or understand.

I am not qualified to fully embrace or critique Evica Drago. Is Drago fully qualified? What does he make of this set of details? How does he know that he knows enough? BTW James Phelan worked for Clifford's uncle McAdams at the Alton Telegraph for more than ten years.

Read more about Clark Clifford's links to 1964's Priscilla & Marina and 1968 "Clean for Gene" McCarthy campaign"

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Third-Fourth%20Decade%20The/Item%2001.pdf
July, 1998
"...(At this stage it should be pointed out that the reported
details of Holmes' early life and education-even his
name-are the subject of extensive ongoing examination

by my friends and fellow researchers Glenn T. Cressy
and Harry Hancock.) "

Versus my recent research,

https://web.archive.org/web/20180117224235/http://jfk.education/
Harry D. Holmes Genealogy
Submitted by Admin on Fri, 04/10/2015 - 15:59
"Holmes was the son of Hilio Davis Holmes and Margaret Edith Powers Holmes

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=69815417
Hilio Davis Holmes 1869 - 1960
Missouri death certificate
http://www.sos.mo.gov/images/archives/deathcerts/1960/1960_00018303.PDF  ..."
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 11:54:14 AM
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2156.msg58544.html#msg58544
August 18, 2019
"...I discovered this three weeks ago and posted it on another forum on July 28th. Despite 1100 page views of that thread since then, save for one reply, quoted below, no interest has been shown,

And there we have it. The jealous little narcissist can't generate enough attention with his trademark zero-stakes info dumps, so he comes onto a genuinely important thread and spams it with off-topic self-obsessed garbage. Sad!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 12:16:14 PM
More importantly, Mr. Lovelady himself now needs to go quite a ways east (at the very least as far as the yellow arrow shows), and his posture needs to reflect the fact that (in Bell) his left arm is down in front of his body, rather than forming the easternmost part of it----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/nz9rDr3k/Hackerott-bell-overlay2-marked.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/RV7k0mLn/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

Making the necessary correction to the Lovelady position will of course offer a more accurate representation of where in the doorway he is in Bell (more towards the center). This will allow us to cross-refer nicely with Mr. Lovelady's fleeting appearance, just a couple of seconds prior, in Hughes:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/g25FtYbb/ezgif-com-gif-maker-5.gif)
[Credit for source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 12:39:01 PM
A white area becomes visible just immediately west of Mr. Lovelady------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/xCs6jydY/Bell-tshirt-larger-75-white-area.gif)

It does not appear to be moving foliage, but to belong to the stable background.

The fact that it encroaches WEST beyond the border of the white area below it, which has been assumed to be the east edge of the white column base, suggests that that lower white area cannot in fact be the east edge of the white column base:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdRbyyK2/Bell-tshirt-white-area.gif)

I still suspect that lower white area is actually sunlit entranceway steps.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 09:55:59 PM
Mr. Roy Edward Lewis (in front of Mr. Oswald) raising his left arm to wave at Pres. Kennedy as he comes onto Elm St.:

(https://i.postimg.cc/nrZ3gB8D/Lewis-Hughes-arm.gif)
[Credit for source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

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Well!

The double fact that-----------------

a) we now know that Mr. Oswald is back on the fourth step up

b) we can see Mr. Lewis in Hughes raise his left arm to wave at the motorcade

----------------invites us to reconsider just what it is we're seeing in the version of the Altgens photograph shown to the American public by Mr. Walter Cronkite the evening of the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsR7CBCz/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)

Could it be that what I have been seeing as Mr. Oswald's raised right arm holding a Coke is in fact Mr. Lewis' raised left arm, and the 'Coke' is part of the flapping object we see in Towner?

(https://i.postimg.cc/nMbTspNv/Cronkite-shape.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnV7M1Q3/Towner-flapping-marked-small.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/6qg6n1hV/Lewis-Hughes-arm-smaller.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 10:08:23 PM

Could it be that what I have been seeing as Mr. Oswald's raised right arm holding a Coke is in fact Mr. Lewis' raised left arm, and the 'Coke' is part of the flapping object we see in Towner?

Now!

For many, many years folks have asked the question, 'Where the heck is Lovelady's left shoulder in Altgens???'

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsR7CBCz/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)

Well!

The flapping object in Towner, whatever it is, appears to be two-toned---------darker towards the (our) left and lighter towards the (our) right:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnV7M1Q3/Towner-flapping-marked-small.gif)

Could BOTH areas marked in red here belong to this flapping object, which the person continued to wave at the Parade even after the limousine had passed?

(https://i.postimg.cc/wT3dDp3D/Cronkite-flapping-object.gif)

It would certainly explain the missing Lovelady shoulder!

If this is the correct solution, then the 'investigating' authorities panicked when they saw the original Altgens because they thought it showed Mr. Oswald's Coke bottle................

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 10:16:02 PM
Could BOTH areas marked in red here belong to this flapping object, which the person continued to wave at the Parade even after the limousine had passed?

And the raised arm need not even belong to Mr. Lewis-----------it could simply be the raised RIGHT arm of the person holding and waving the object:

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5Y3G3PC/Cronkite-flapping-object-with-hand.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 07, 2023, 10:32:17 PM
Anyone who thinks that

a) the Altgens photograph wasn't monkeyed with------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsR7CBCz/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/zvLC5vXJ/Altgens-Groden-300-70-crop.jpg)

b) the ridiculous shadow down Mr. Lovelady's right side in Weigman isn't fake-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/3rvty2zV/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0002.jpg)

------------is in serious reality-denial mode!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Tom Scully on March 07, 2023, 11:50:40 PM
And there we have it. The jealous little narcissist can't generate enough attention with his trademark zero-stakes info dumps, so he comes onto a genuinely important thread and spams it with off-topic self-obsessed garbage. Sad!

You're engaged in a 285 page, "spam thread" a record volume on this forum, a "conversation" primarily with yourself.
Your intent is to maintain this thread as the first page thread with the most recent post.

That is it... the extent, at this point and for several years, of your effort here.

Quote
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg93357.html#msg93357

Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Alan Ford « Reply #7 on: July 10, 2020,

How are you different than Gerry Campeau in this example? You both shovel BS against the tide, IOW, against the facts... the sincerity behind your individual efforts amounting to no excuse for either of you.

https://jfkfacts.org/rewinding-the-zapruder-film/#comment-843418
GERRY CAMPEAU
DECEMBER 28, 2015 AT 10:46 AM
"Tom S
It’s quit oveous that your news paper story on Col Robert E Jones is cover story to cover up Truth about Col Jones its a charade to think there is more then one Col Robert E Jones at Fort Campbell KY
http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2011/10/26/fort-campbell-held-dedication-for-the-new-col-robert-e-jones-training-support-center/
According to Larry Hancock’s research on the 112th, Jones was lying. He was never the 112th’s operations officer. And the committee didn’t know this? How did Jones know it would be safe to lie about it? And if he lied under oath about something as basic as his own position with the 112th, why should we believe anything else that he said?
 
http://www.maryferre…bsPageId=223377 .."

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2023, 12:24:36 AM
You're engaged in a 285 page, "spam thread" a record volume on this forum, a "conversation" primarily with yourself.
Your intent is to maintain this thread as the first page thread with the most recent post.

That is it... the extent, at this point and for several years, of your effort here.

~Grin~

Ok, genius. Pick any item of photographic/film evidence at issue in this thread and debate me on it. I'll incinerate you in seconds.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2023, 12:31:48 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsR7CBCz/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/zvLC5vXJ/Altgens-Groden-300-70-crop.jpg)

Friends, the 'investigating' authorities were freaking out about the fact that Mr. Oswald was in the doorway. If my proposal above re. the flapping object in Altgens is correct, then we can say that this panic led them to make two telltale errors in their alteration of Altgens that would be comical were it not for the ungodly awfulness of what they were doing to the patsy:

1. They mistook Mr. Roy Edward Lewis (the man standing directly in front of Mr. Oswald in Wiegman) for Mr. Carl Edward Jones

2. The mistook part of the flapping object being waved (which we see so graphically in Towner) for Mr. Oswald's Coke bottle.

There was no actual need for them to alter Altgens!

Good people may of course disagree as to the exact interpretation of the Cronkite version of Altgens, which is the only time the unaltered image was shown to the American people. Wherever the truth of what we are seeing there lies, we now know----from comparative analysis of Hughes, Towner, Bell and Wiegman-----that the man in the reddish long-sleeved shirt standing behind Mr. Lewis in the Hughes film is not Mr. Billy Lovelady but Mr. Lee Oswald

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)
[Credit for GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 08, 2023, 09:56:30 AM
Your Handy One-Stop Photo-Visual Guide!

Green arrow: Mr. Oswald
Yellow arrow: Mr. Lovelady


(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)
[Credit for source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

(https://i.postimg.cc/2S1xCZvc/Bell-tshirt-Lovelady.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLQXL4L2/Altgens-Groden-300-70-Lovelady.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCb64bRm/Wiegman-LHO-Lovelady.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 09, 2023, 05:37:38 AM
Roy Lewis does NOT place himself at the bottom of the steps, but rather at the TOP of the steps. (Per his more recent interview)

Lewis describes in his interview WHEN he came out , that it was just AFTER JFK limo has turned onto Elm st, and at which point Lewis saw JFK “brush his hair”. This makes it improbable that Lewis would be in Hughes film at the bottom of the steps as JFK limo is going up Houston st, BEFORE it turned on Elm.

Roy Lewis shirt is a much darker blue than the very light blue shirt of the black man at bottom
Of the steps in the Hughes film gif.

Roy Lewis pants are much darker than the almost white pants of that same black man in Hughes film gif.

The face in Wiegman film and Altgens film
Does NOT match the face of Lewis.

The black and white  Weigman film and the b&w
Altgens photo show clearly the black man has very light , almost white shirt and pants.

In another black and white photo of Lewis, (see prayerman site) his shirt and pants appear as dark as his jacket is , which jacket is wrapped around his waste. It’s highly improbable  that the very light blue and almost white pants of black man in Hughes could appear so dark as in another  b&w photo of Roy Lewis taken with in an hour later out front of TSBD.

If Lewis had  a habit of wrapping his  jacket around his waste when he took it off, then if he is the black man at bottom of steps in Hughes, Weigman, and Altgens , it follows that there should be a jacket around the waste. There is no jacket to be seen around the waste of the black and it’s unlikely he just dropped the jacket on the steps somewhere.

It’s highly improbable that Lewis dark blue shirt and dark pants could appear as light grey almost white as in Weigman film and Altgens photo.

Imo, the  Very Light blue tone of the shirt of black man in Hughes film is an effect caused by the gif enhancement process.

Therefore because of the above as well as the FACE dimensions (longer nose, more oval shape head ) and height of the black male in any photo or film segment that show some closer detail, the black man has to  be Carl Jones.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 09, 2023, 07:48:06 AM
Roy Lewis does NOT place himself at the bottom of the steps, but rather at the TOP of the steps. (Per his more recent interview)

And he contradicts himself at 25:40: first he talks about "When I came out"------------then, watch his hand gestures when he says "when I got down to stop".

He has been all over the place in his various statements about his exact whereabouts on the stairs. In one statement, for instance, he puts himself in the center of the doorway with the ladies.

He is in an impossible situation:

a) Standing right behind him was the one man you really don't want standing behind you at the time of the assassination: Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald

b) Altgens (at least 'Canonical Altgens') shows another man's face where he knows his own should be! (The lady at 24:28 in the Rivera conference clip referenced above knows what's what.)

Quote
Lewis describes in his interview WHEN he came out , that it was just AFTER JFK limo has turned onto Elm st, and at which point Lewis saw JFK “brush his hair”. This makes it improbable that Lewis would be in Hughes film at the bottom of the steps as JFK limo is going up Houston st, BEFORE it turned on Elm.

Roy Lewis shirt is a much darker blue than the very light blue shirt of the black man at bottom
Of the steps in the Hughes film gif.

Roy Lewis pants are much darker than the almost white pants of that same black man in Hughes film gif.

Not sure I see the problem, once one factors in distance & sun. Below is Hughes alongside the Willis scan made by Mr. Richard Bernabei. Each image shows the white of an entranceway column. Seems to me that taking Mr. Jones as the figure in blue in Hughes is much more problematical than making Mr. Lewis that figure in blue.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Wbr1NF/Roy-Lewis-willis-barnabei-crop.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)
[Credit for Hughes GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

Quote
The face in Wiegman film and Altgens film
Does NOT match the face of Lewis.

Which frame(s) from Wiegman make you say this?

And where in Altgens is the face you say doesn't match Mr. Lewis' and does match Mr. Jones'?:

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsR7CBCz/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)

Quote
The black and white  Weigman film and the b&w
Altgens photo show clearly the black man has very light , almost white shirt and pants.

In another black and white photo of Lewis, (see prayerman site) his shirt and pants appear as dark as his jacket is , which jacket is wrapped around his waste. It’s highly improbable  that the very light blue and almost white pants of black man in Hughes could appear so dark as in another  b&w photo of Roy Lewis taken with in an hour later out front of TSBD.

If Lewis had  a habit of wrapping his  jacket around his waste when he took it off, then if he is the black man at bottom of steps in Hughes, Weigman, and Altgens , it follows that there should be a jacket around the waste. There is no jacket to be seen around the waste of the black and it’s unlikely he just dropped the jacket on the steps somewhere.

We don't know that he had his cardigan with him when he came outside to watch the P. Parade.

Here, by the way, is Mr. Jones in Couch carrying something in his hands:

(https://i.postimg.cc/nV2dyRCC/Jones-in-Couch-marked.gif)

I have suggested that this is the object we see flapping in Towner.

Quote
It’s highly improbable that Lewis dark blue shirt and dark pants could appear as light grey almost white as in Weigman film and Altgens photo.

His pants are in Altgens??

Quote
Imo, the  Very Light blue tone of the shirt of black man in Hughes film is an effect caused by the gif enhancement process.

Can you find any other instance in Hughes of something cream-colored showing up blue?

Quote
Therefore because of the above as well as the FACE dimensions (longer nose, more oval shape head ) and height of the black male in any photo or film segment that show some closer detail, the black man has to  be Carl Jones.

Again, it would be helpful, Mr. Mason, if you would post some images that you feel back up this analysis. And please include hairline!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 09, 2023, 10:12:18 AM
Out of interest, has Mr. Lewis ever positively identified himself as this man standing beside Mr. Jones in Willis?

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Wbr1NF/Roy-Lewis-willis-barnabei-crop.jpg)

I ask because I have seen it suggested that this man is actually seen in the Bronson film well away from the Depository:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs3M6Tjr/Lewis-possibly-bronson.jpg)

Cf:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HxLR7YJb/Lewis-elm.jpg)

Are we 100% sure this guy wasn't just a non-TSBD pal of Mr. Jones??

After all, not everyone who went up on those steps after the assassination was an employee............

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDmr4g9q/Jones-et-al-steps.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 09, 2023, 10:49:14 AM
What is Mr. Jones carrying in his right hand?

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrPhsbTz/Jones-Couch-object.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 09, 2023, 07:33:26 PM
In one sense, of course, the identification of the man standing in front of Mr. Oswald has become somewhat academic in light of the differentiated identification of Messrs. Lovelady and Oswald that has now been achieved (thanks to Hughes-Bell-Towner). That remains the substantive issue, and represents an historic breakthrough (----------->LHO alibi for the shooting).

However! It's good housekeeping to develop maximal insight into what & who precisely is where precisely in that all-important doorway in those all-important seconds. As anyone who has been around this case for a while will know only too well, even the most trivial-seeming detail can take on unexpected revelatory significance............

I particularly would like to resolve the question of what exactly this area in Bell----------------------from behind which Mr. Lovelady becomes visible to Mr. Bell's camera--------------------really represents:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MGZhDt3y/Bell-tshirt-larger-75-white-area.gif)

The Lewis/Jones question may-------or may not--------bear upon this question!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 09, 2023, 07:43:22 PM
From Ms. Madie Reese's March 20 statement to FBI:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxtwz3xR/Reese-LHO.jpg)

Question for TEAM KEEP LHO OFF THEM STEPS!

Does Ms. Reese's disclaimer about having seen Mr. Oswald in the building 11/22 cover the enclosed front entranceway, which is where she was at the time of the assassination? Or do you believe that the phrase "in the Texas School Book Depository building" does NOT include the entranceway?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 10, 2023, 01:56:52 AM
Making the necessary correction to the Lovelady position will of course offer a more accurate representation of where in the doorway he is in Bell (more towards the center). This will allow us to cross-refer nicely with Mr. Lovelady's fleeting appearance, just a couple of seconds prior, in Hughes:

The center railing, against which Ms. Reese is standing/leaning:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L5YzBx5J/Bell-railing.gif)

A wider shot:

(https://i.postimg.cc/50Hp9BvS/Bell-railing-wideshot.jpg)

Given that Mr. Bell is NOT filming the doorway head-on, but is slightly west of it, there now can be no serious question but that Mr. Lovelady is well over towards the center of the doorway-------------------which of course is just where his fleeting appearance (as he leans west) in the Hughes film but two seconds earlier puts him also.

GREEN ARROW: MR. LEE HARVEY OSWALD
YELLOW ARROW: MR. BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)
[Credit for posting source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 10, 2023, 02:24:06 AM
What now for Warren Gullibility, that bizarre cult of propagandists and midwits?

Their central article of faith----------that Mr. Oswald shot Pres. Kennedy----------has just been exploded. Every time henceforth that they post anything that proceeds from the assumption that Mr. Oswald was up on the sixth floor firing those shots, they will just be advertising their own stupidity, delusion and/or dishonesty. Their every saying will be haunted by the ghost of this man, whose murder by Mr. Jack Ruby they have openly celebrated and whose agonies in the electric chair they have fantasized about:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMHZ34rm/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

My friendly advice to these sad kooks (once the reality of what has just happened has sunk in with the wider research community and beyond, as sink in it certainly will) would be to emulate DPD in the first hours after Mr. Oswald's arrest: go all in on the Tippit case. Meanwhile, the Warren Critics can continue to inquire into the still unanswered question of who killed JFK (a President many of you hate).

Either that or go reflect a while on the idiocy of this dogmatic slumber you have been in all these years-------------and then go find a more productive and less pathetic hobby.

It is, in short, over, Warren Gullibles------------------let it go.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 10, 2023, 11:06:39 AM
Given that Mr. Bell is NOT filming the doorway head-on, but is slightly west of it,

The identification of the center railing is most helpful!

Arrows point to edge of Mr. Lovelady's left shoulder and to Ms. Reese's right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tCvLv1CS/Hackerott-Lovelady-Reese-shoulder.gif)

This brings us closer, but we're not yet quite at the cigar stage. Mr. Bell moved slightly west of where the 3D program has him (it's why he's catching shadow from the tree rather than the full sunlight we earlier see him enjoying on the pedestal). Watch the red vertical line:

(https://i.postimg.cc/28dGtBYY/Hackerott-concrete-to-column.gif)

There is also still, I think, a slight but impactful scaling issue (yellow arrow):

(https://i.postimg.cc/vT4TCKDj/Hackerott-base-edge.gif)

Friends, I spoke before of the 'investigating' authorities' fear that some member of the public might at any time come forward with clear photo/film evidence of the Lovelady/LHO switcheroo------------i.e. clear evidence that Mr. Lovelady was NOT the only red-shirt-wearing fellow on the west side of the doorway. When Mr. Robert Hughes came forward on 11/26/63 with his home movie, they must have thanked the stars above that a certain little girl had decided to watch the P. Parade from a certain pedestal!

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4GKjpQL/Lovelady-Hughes-longer-frame-0002.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 10, 2023, 04:36:37 PM
The 'Prayer Man' research push was an heroic project, which has culminated in TOTAL vindication on the question of Mr. Oswald's doorway alibi, and PARTIAL vindication on the identification of 'Prayer Man'.

The 'Prayer Man' figure in the Wiegman film IS indeed Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald, his person obscured by the same technique that has thrown a ridiculous fake shadow down Mr. Lovelady's side:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jqDybqp1/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

However! The 'Prayer Man' figure in the Darnell film is NOT Mr. Oswald. That person is a woman, who was standing behind Mr. Oswald while he was on the steps:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqHjQxjF/Prayer-Woman.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/VLp8VgjT/Hughes-LHO-Prayer-Woman.jpg)

Those who are still staking all on 'Prayer Man in Darnell', and giving folks to understand that this is the be all and end all, are only setting themselves and others up for disappointment-------------and (quite unintentionally) playing into the hands of the now desperate Warren Gullibles who want Mr. Oswald's real alibi, as established in the preceding pages here, to get lost in the noise of pseudo-controversies.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 10, 2023, 11:27:33 PM
I still suspect that lower white area is actually sunlit entranceway steps.

Alternatively!

(https://i.postimg.cc/NG81j2b9/Bell-car.gif)

CAR:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y6fr5Ry/Darnell-car.jpg)

Note location relative to yellow street pole:

(https://i.postimg.cc/X7mHwCSj/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell-frame-0009-traffic-car.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMtRbzqD/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 11, 2023, 02:32:50 AM
I don’t have the skills that Mr.Ford has at posting photos etc., so I just comment on what my opinion is after observing what already has been posted in this thread ( which is becoming a almost a library at this point:)

It’s still my opinion that the black man is more likely to be Carl Jones.

It’s curious that the WC investigators seem to have avoided a more rigorous interview with Jones and Lewis.

In that more recent  interview of Lewis , near the end of it, a women questions why it appears that the black man in Altgens photo is looking towards Daltex building. Lewis looks at the screen and is not able to give any reason, , and he seems a bit confused.

Note: the abbreviation  BDM will be used for “black doorman” to  designate the black man whom is at the lower west side steps of TSBD and whom Is either Roy Lewis or Carl Jones.

The b&w Weigman film  clips  shows the pants and shirt of “black doorman” (BDM) being  a very light tone of gray approaching almost as white as other shirts of other persons such as Sarah Stanton (fluffy shirt person raising both hands to shade her eyes).

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2023, 09:29:36 AM
I don’t have the skills that Mr.Ford has at posting photos etc., so I just comment on what my opinion is after observing what already has been posted in this thread ( which is becoming a almost a library at this point:)

It’s still my opinion that the black man is more likely to be Carl Jones.

It’s curious that the WC investigators seem to have avoided a more rigorous interview with Jones and Lewis.

In that more recent  interview of Lewis , near the end of it, a women questions why it appears that the black man in Altgens photo is looking towards Daltex building. Lewis looks at the screen and is not able to give any reason, , and he seems a bit confused.

Note: the abbreviation  BDM will be used for “black doorman” to  designate the black man whom is at the lower west side steps of TSBD and whom Is either Roy Lewis or Carl Jones.

The b&w Weigman film  clips  shows the pants and shirt of “black doorman” (BDM) being  a very light tone of gray approaching almost as white as other shirts of other persons such as Sarah Stanton (fluffy shirt person raising both hands to shade her eyes).

In one sense, Mr. Mason, this has become a side-issue since the resolution of the Lovelady vs. LHO question in Hughes-Bell-Towner: the identity of the black man in front of Mr. Oswald does not have any bearing on the identity of Mr. Oswald. The critical issue is not Jones vs. Lewis but Lovelady vs. LHO.

However, it would be good to resolve the matter, not least because of its implications for the Altgens photograph. (To recap: I have argued that the 'investigating' authorities were desperate to obscure what they thought was Mr. Oswald's Coke-holding right arm, and pasted in the face of the black man they thought was just in front of him in the doorway; they found an aftermath profile image of him and used it.)

Now! Let's separate out the questions:

Q1. Is the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Hughes Mr. Carl Edward Jones?
Q2. If he is NOT Mr. Jones, is he Mr. Roy Edward Lewis?


Re. Q1:

Here's Mr. Jones (or at least the man we all presume to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones) in a color photograph, with a person in white in his vicinity:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdZBmQ93/Carl-Edward-Jones-crop.jpg)

And here's the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Hughes, with a person in white (Ms. Madie Reese) in his vicinity:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

I am perturbed by the two very different color stories being told in these respective images.

As it happens, Mr. Hughes has already filmed a man who looks & is dressed strikingly like our Mr. Carl Edward Jones----------walking south at Main-Houston shortly before the motorcade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/6374C0Z7/Hughes-man-Houston-Main.jpg)

He offers a useful point of comparison. Not a hint of blue on the pre-motorcade man (other than his gloves). Can anyone make a gif of this man in which his clothes show up in a shade of blue?

On the other side, here's an aftermath image from Hughes of what appears to be our 'Mr. Jones' from later in the Hughes film. He's leaning against the street pole:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9Mk444FY/Lewis-elm.jpg)

The color of his clothes is more metallic here. HOWEVER: just look at the color of the brown brickwork on the Depository----------very different to the more naturalistic tone of Mr. Hughes' pre-motorcade footage of the Depository front.

If all this can be resolved in favor of our Mr. Jones, then great. But I'm just not at all convinced at this point.

Re. Q2:

I am honestly perturbed by the Bronson film footage of a man who looks (at least from behind) a ringer for the young man we see standing with our Mr. Jones in the aftermath images:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs3M6Tjr/Lewis-possibly-bronson.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxLR7YJb/Lewis-elm.jpg)

And, while the young man with our Mr. Jones does look quite like Mr. Roy Edward Lewis as shown in MUCH later images (photo in No More Silence + recent conference appearance), I would caution against the assumption that this young man is Mr. Lewis.

IF he is Mr. Lewis, and IF that is him in Bronson, then he was not in the doorway at the time of the assassination. This would offer an alternative explanation for his 'confused' recollection of where he went and what he saw in that doorway.

Which would leave us where exactly? Well, with a third possibility that is worth considering: the black man standing in front of Mr. Oswald in the doorway is NEITHER of the two black men we have been taking to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones and Mr. Roy Edward Lewis.

***

What I do NOT question is that the face in profile we see in 'Canonical Altgens' is that of the man in cream clothing on the steps seen in aftermath images. I believe the 'investigating' authorities assumed him to be the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Wiegman, and took a profile image of him from one of the aftermath photos and pasted it in (with further retouching, e.g. of hair). His face is not in the Cronkite version of Altgens, the only (so I have argued) time the American public were shown the unaltered Altgens photograph.

Here are two profile shots of that man I have taken from two aftermath images. Either could have formed the basis of the profile face we see in post-Cronkite Altgens:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MGB5Wj0V/Carl-Jones-in-Willis-grayscale.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/L4jsz4DD/Carl-Jones-flipped-cropped.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsR7CBCz/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/zvLC5vXJ/Altgens-Groden-300-70-crop.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2023, 10:14:23 AM
Mr. Oswald is on the fourth step up, which would appear to put Mr. Lovelady, when he makes his fleeting leaning appearance in Hughes, up on the landing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 11, 2023, 11:27:43 AM
Now! Let's separate out the questions:

Q1. Is the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Hughes Mr. Carl Edward Jones?
Q2. If he is NOT Mr. Jones, is he Mr. Roy Edward Lewis?


I am interested in this hitherto unidentified fellow standing behind the glass of the front entrance:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTLxK2Df/Otis-Williams-doorway-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/DfYW2231/Otis-Williams-doorway-unidentified.jpg)

The fact that he is in the front lobby of the building strongly suggests he is an employee.

Is this the same guy (black arrow), seen outside? I think so:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KYwZ6YMY/Unidentified-tsbd-entrance-arrows.jpg)

Given that we have never seen a verified photograph of Mr. Carl Edward Jones, I think the man at the black arrow may be at least as strong a candidate for the 33-year-old TSBD employee Mr. Carl Edward Jones as the man at the white arrow.

Murray shows this man in short sleeves, which would seem to rule him out as the man in front of Mr. Oswald during the motorcade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yNQ00sM/Unidentified-in-Murray.jpg)

Seems to me the black man showing up in blue in Hughes in front of Mr. Oswald at the time of the assassination may well be none of the the black men shown in the photograph with the black & white arrows.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 01:08:41 AM
Ms. Ruth Dean's dark top is a short jacket rather than a coat---------Wiegman and Bell show the lighter-colored skirt/dress covering the lower part of her body:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdFN9PL1/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-dean.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Sskz8Gvn/Ruth-Dean-Wiegman.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnqBs5ZZ/Dean-in-Bell.gif)

This means that Mr. Hackerott is correct that the blue just to the (i.e. our) right of Mr. Lovelady is NOT Ms. Dean. It may indeed, as he suggests, be the pants of a man standing on the landing BEHIND him!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 12:18:53 PM
Seems to me the black man showing up in blue in Hughes in front of Mr. Oswald at the time of the assassination may well be none of the the black men shown in the photograph with the black & white arrows.

Well!

Look at these two figures on each side of the doorway in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1XW1ShMP/Towner-saturation-two-men.gif)

What's interesting about the person on the right (green arrow) is that their left elbow is clearly out in front of the white column. (They appear to be shielding their eyes from the sun.) This surely puts them no further up than the second step up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3r2ZcFNS/allen-entrance-shadow-small.jpg)

So---------two figures on the second step up.

Now let's compare with these two figures standing on the second step up (=fifth step down) in Willis:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY9qbwpH/Organ-Lewis-crop.jpg)

The bigger guy in Willis only comes up to the top of the THIRD row of white grid stonework (beside doorway). Now compare the figure on the right (green arrow) in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1XW1ShMP/Towner-saturation-two-men.gif)

This person is standing on the same step as 'Carl Edward Jones' is standing on in Willis (second step up = fifth step down), yet their head is well up to a level with the FOURTH row of stonework.

This person is surely too tall to be a woman. Who the heck is he?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 12:42:20 PM
This person is surely too tall to be a woman. Who the heck is he?

Well, here's what I'm thinking:

He's none other than the black man in cream-colored clothing we see here in Willis, only in Towner he is standing on tiptoe to see Pres. Kennedy over folks' heads-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY9qbwpH/Organ-Lewis-crop.jpg)

---------------------> Cream-colored man was indeed in the doorway at the time of the P. Parade, but over at the far EAST side. After the shots, he ran out to the street pole:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5N13zK15/Couch-film.gif)

And he shows up in Hughes not in a strange hue of BLUE but in just the color you would expect him to show up in:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzSL2487/Hughes-Jones.gif)

As for our friend in blue, standing just in front of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald, he may after all be NEITHER of these two men but a DIFFERENT black man:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq5t8Fnx/Roy-Edward-Lewis.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 02:50:19 PM
As for our friend in blue, standing just in front of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald, he may after all be NEITHER of these two men but a DIFFERENT black man:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq5t8Fnx/Roy-Edward-Lewis.jpg)

One thing we can say about the man on the far east side of the doorway------------whom I have tentatively identified as our cream-colored-clothes man seen in Willis, i.e. Mr. Carl Edward Jones-------------is that he is TALL.

But so is our man in blue on the WEST side, whose spatial relationship to the white column tells us he is only TWO STEPS UP:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMn5Gk91/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-height.jpg)

If only there were another TALL BLACK male employee-----------other, that is, than Mr. Carl Edward Jones------------who might fit the bill for our man in blue over by the west column of the doorway.

Well, here's a thing................

(https://i.postimg.cc/RZMdQBdp/Givens-height.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RZwscPvZ/Givens-1967.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/x8by9CC1/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

Have you ever been struck by the fact that Mr. Charles Givens is the only manual worker in the Depository who puts himself away from Dealey Plaza at the time of the P. Parade?

And have you ever wondered why it was that, just as the cops were closing in on Mr. Oswald at the Texas Theatre, DPD were suddenly desperately anxious to get a hold of this same Mr. Charles Givens?

(https://i.postimg.cc/nVyqTJFY/Givens-Theatre.jpg)

So! I have a simple question: Was Mr. Charles Givens dressed in light blue clothing that day?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 03:01:49 PM
So! I have a simple question: Was Mr. Charles Givens dressed in light blue clothing that day?


Disaster One:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zRNjRV2/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif)

Officer Baker mentions to other law enforcement the man-who-works-here whom he and the building manager caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up.

Mr. Truly, his back against the wall, at some point is forced to make an identification of this man-who-works-here: he throws Mr. Oswald to the wolves.

Disaster Two:

Word reaches law enforcement that a black manual worker name of Givens has been saying he saw Oswald at the time of the shooting.

'Where did he see him?'
'Front steps.'
'Uh oh.......... We gotta get a hold of this Givens fellow, pronto. The fact that he has a police record should work in our favor.'

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 05:58:34 PM
Word reaches law enforcement that a black manual worker name of Givens has been saying he saw Oswald at the time of the shooting.

'Where did he see him?'
'Front steps.'
'Uh oh.......... We gotta get a hold of this Givens fellow, pronto. The fact that he has a police record should work in our favor.'

Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?
Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?
Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.
He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?
Mr. SAWYER. No.


Sawyer, Sawyer, pants on fire!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 12, 2023, 06:13:05 PM
Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?
Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?
Mr. TRULY. Walking east.
Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?
Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the Houston Street.


How wonderfully observant of you, Mr. Truly!

Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.


Oops!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 02:07:13 AM
Mr. Oswald is on the fourth step up, which would appear to put Mr. Lovelady, when he makes his fleeting leaning appearance in Hughes, up on the landing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

Which brings us back to the riddle of Towner!

This, I think, is Ms. Madie Reese:

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3QPp1RS/Towner-Reese.gif)

And here's the object flapping furiously:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bv17vb3B/Towner-waving.gif)

For the longest time, I thought THIS was somebody in the background being revealed when the object flapped up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y00DQmzk/Towner-flash-frame-0005-unfurled.jpg)

But watching the clip slowed down, I now believe it's actually the flapping object itself, unfurled into its square/rectangular shape:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fL2BWRnP/Towner-waving-slow.gif)

What in the heck is this object? A flag??

 :-\
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 02:18:27 AM
For the longest time, I thought THIS was somebody in the background being revealed when the object flapped up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y00DQmzk/Towner-flash-frame-0005-unfurled.jpg)

But watching the clip slowed down, I now believe it's actually the flapping object itself, unfurled into its square/rectangular shape

However!

This does NOT mean that there is nobody standing behind the flapping object:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1z9KZBk/Towner-flash-frame-0007-leg.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5N6LWmtb/Towner-flash-saturation.gif)

This is--------------I believe------------the right leg of Mr. Billy Lovelady. And we can see some of the left leg too just left of Ms. Reese. The height seems right for where we are but instants away from seeing Mr. Lovelady in Bell.

But.............. his upper body has been blacked out. (Two Loveladys in the doorway: not allowed!)

There seems simply no other logical explanation for how we go from these Towner frames straight into these Bell frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJPNf96k/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 02:44:18 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/fL2BWRnP/Towner-waving-slow.gif)

What in the heck is this object? A flag??

Well, here's a thought...................

Remember that strange flash in Towner which I noted a few pages back? You know, the one that comes right in the place where Mr. Oswald is?

(https://i.postimg.cc/dDMKVKz8/Towner-flash-arrows-saturation.gif)

Now look at the blend of white and blue we see just in front of Mr. Lovelady in Bell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJhsGx8D/Bell-tshirt-larger-75-white-area.gif)

Sure don't look to me like foliage:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8kR4KGCM/Bell-tshirt-white-blue-saturation.gif)

Now look at this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PfQbbM6M/Cuban-flag.jpg)

Is Mr. Oswald waving a Cuban flag at the P. Parade, and taking a photograph of his protest as he does so?

It would explain a lot, starting with his trip to the Paine home the previous evening..................

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 03:10:43 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfQbbM6M/Cuban-flag.jpg)

Is Mr. Oswald waving a Cuban flag at the P. Parade, and taking a photograph of his protest as he does so?


(https://i.postimg.cc/D0dfb0n2/Towner-flag-saturation.gif)

The left shoulder/raised left arm of the black man in front of Mr. Oswald partially obscuring the red side of the flag. But only partially!

(https://i.postimg.cc/KjJS2Mmg/Towner-flash-frame-0002.jpg)

Has the flag caught Pres. Kennedy's eye?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 11:17:16 AM
'This is ridiculous! There's no reason to think that's a flag!'

Really? What do you say it might be then?
A handkerchief? Nope, too big for a handkerchief-----this is clearly wider than the breadth of the black man in front of Mr. Oswald.
A lady's scarf? Nope, there is no woman there to wave it (Ms. Reese's empty right hand is busy shielding her eyes).
A jacket? Nope, it forms too perfect a rectangle when not flapping furiously.
So................ what then, if not a flag?

'LHO holding up a Cuban flag? That's quite a reach!'

Really? Which part is a reach?

The LHO bit? Well, we know Mr. Oswald is right there beside/behind it, and the only other possible person who could be holding it (the black man in front) does not look to be pumping his arm left and right.

The flag bit? See my first point above.

The Cuban bit? Ask yourself: If Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald were to wave any flag at a passing U.S. President, which flag do you think he would wave? Bit of a no brainer, dontcha think?

Friends, I invite you to picture Mr. Oswald, standing in the selfsame spot we have just seen him at in Hughes, holding out his left arm and moving the flag from side to side. The wind, as well as the basic physics of flag-waving, mean that the flag goes back and forth between a state of furious flapping and one of being more smoothly visible. Which is exactly what we see here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3g2PMVF/Towner-flag-slow-marked.gif)

Note the stable position of Mr. Oswald as he comes in and out of visibility just behind the flag---------in the EXACT same place we have seen him not two seconds ago in Hughes.

Now! I talked about Mr. Oswald holding the flag in his left hand. But how exactly is he holding it up? If he is clutching it at its top right corner (=right-hand side from his perspective), it will just hang down in a collapsed mess.

No, there must be something solid that has been attached to the right-hand side of the flag, and Mr. Oswald must be gripping that something in his left hand. Something like a piece of wood. Something like a metal bar. Something like a-----------------curtain rod.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 11:22:17 AM
With this unexpected annoyance in front of him, no wonder Mr. Lovelady shifts to his left!

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJhsGx8D/Bell-tshirt-larger-75-white-area.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 11:39:39 AM
No, there must be something solid that has been attached to the right-hand side of the flag, and Mr. Oswald must be gripping that something in his left hand. Something like a piece of wood. Something like a metal bar. Something like a-----------------curtain rod.

Let us assume that Mr. Oswald has decided to use Pres. Kennedy's visit as an opportunity to burnish his pro-Castro credentials (via a nearly-selfie----------those who accept the authenticity of the backyard photos might like to think of it as something in the same genre). He then hears shots ring out. He then learns that Pres. Kennedy was hit.

He then enters a very Louie Witt state of mind, with a great big helping of fear on top..........

This would explain not just his departure from the Depository but also his denial in custody of having brought any curtain rods to work: after what has happened to Pres. Kennedy, and given the suspicion he knows his leftist reputation is drawing down upon him, he is not about to confess to having gone out to Irving the evening before to pick up a Cuban flag and two curtain rods from the Paine garage.

He leaves the curtain rods behind somewhere in the building, but hides the flag on his person and takes it with him, disposing of it somewhere along his route to the Texas Theatre. He is no fool, and is all too alive to the very real prospect that his disastrously ill-timed protest on the steps will put him on the hook as an accomplice in a pro-Castro assassination plot. When the cops arrive at the Texas Theatre, his worst nightmare materializes. But-----NB!------he does not believe he is being picked up as the shooter-------------------------he believes he is being picked up on account of his flag-waving stunt, which he assumes the cops are interpreting as evidence of his involvement in the assassination plot.

When Fritz grills him on the curtain rods, Mr. Oswald mistakenly thinks the reason for this grilling is the flag-waving stunt, and so he denies all. He has no idea he's actually being accused of having brought the murder rifle to work that morning, let alone of having himself used it to shoot Pres. Kennedy from the sixth floor!

And, of course, the two curtain rods will be found in the Depository after the assassination, and tested for his prints:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJC42wpq/Curtain-Rods-Texas-History-version-70.jpg)

If I had to guess where they were discovered, I would say that Mr. Oswald slipped them under this in the domino room:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JznyJs1h/Domino-room-bench.png)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 11:49:31 AM
Let us assume that Mr. Oswald has decided to use Pres. Kennedy's visit as an opportunity to burnish his pro-Castro credentials (via a nearly-selfie----------those who accept the authenticity of the backyard photos might like to think of it as something in the same genre). He then hears shots ring out. He then learns that Pres. Kennedy was hit.

He then enters a very Louis Witt state of mind, with a great big helping of fear on top..........

Two alternative scenarios:

--------------Mr. Oswald is tricked into believing that shots will be fired non-fatally from the sixth floor in a false flag attempt to provoke an invasion of Cuba. He knows all about the external 'flooring crew' upstairs (including the Latin-looking men who will show themselves at the window), and has agreed to play a small semiotic role with his little flag-waving protest. When he discovers Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, however, he goes into panic mode. He makes a beeline for his contact at the Texas Theatre, but not before picking up his pistol from his rooming house.

--------------Mr. Oswald has full foreknowledge of the assassination plot. He knows all about the external 'flooring crew' upstairs, and has agreed to play a small semiotic role with his little flag-waving protest. But his expected ride out of Dealey Plaza never materializes. He goes into panic mode. He makes a beeline for his contact at the Texas Theatre, but not before picking up his pistol from his rooming house.

In both of these scenarios, Mr. Oswald expects to be flown out of Dallas after the events in Dealey Plaza, which he possibly even sees as his way into Cuba. One thing is sure: a man who wishes to continue working at Mr. Roy Truly's Texas School Book Depository does not wave a Cuban flag from its steps during a P. Parade. The waving of the flag is his political coming-out-at-work moment.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 12:25:40 PM
Friends, the above line of thought promises to consummate the disaster for the Warren Gullibles. The proof that Mr. Oswald was on the front steps at the time of the P. Parade has meant they have already lost the LHO-in-SN portion of their fairytale. But a flag-waving Mr. Oswald on those front steps bids fair to rob them too of their tired 'LHO's post-assassination behavior proves he shot JFK!' routine.

I wonder how they're getting on back in Dunce's Corner, still trying to figure out a non-risible way of explaining this shadow down Mr. Lovelady?

(https://i.postimg.cc/2yzxpnWD/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER.jpg)

Not a declarative peep out them so far!

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 13, 2023, 07:27:35 PM
He leaves the curtain rods behind somewhere in the building, but hides the flag on his person and takes it with him, disposing of it somewhere along his route to the Texas Theatre. He is no fool, and is all too alive to the very real prospect that his disastrously ill-timed protest on the steps will put him on the hook as an accomplice in a pro-Castro assassination plot. When the cops arrive at the Texas Theatre, his worst nightmare materializes. But-----NB!------he does not believe he is being picked up as the shooter-------------------------he believes he is being picked up on account of his flag-waving stunt, which he assumes the cops are interpreting as evidence of his involvement in the assassination plot.

When Fritz grills him on the curtain rods, Mr. Oswald mistakenly thinks the reason for this grilling is the flag-waving stunt, and so he denies all. He has no idea he's actually being accused of having brought the murder rifle to work that morning, let alone of having himself used it to shoot Pres. Kennedy from the sixth floor!

When we think of Captain Fritz saying to Mr. Oswald, 'The fellow who drove you to work says you told him you had curtain rods in your package', we hear an opportunity for Mr. Oswald to exonerate himself of the charge of bringing a rifle to work. But when Mr. Oswald himself hears those words, he is hearing an accusation-------------'You brought curtain rods to work for a nefarious purpose connected to the assassination, didn't you?' And so he parries with a flat denial: 'No, Wesley is mistaken about that.'

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 14, 2023, 11:34:43 AM
Anyone minded to dismiss out of hand the importance of the sizeable object being waved ('So somebody's waving something, big deal...') ought to consider the fact that it goes BEHIND the black man standing by the white west column but IN FRONT OF the man standing directly behind that black man:

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3g2PMVF/Towner-flag-slow-marked.gif)

This localizes the object nicely.

Somebody must be waving this object, right? And that somebody must be behind the black man, right?

Well, there are only two possible candidates:
1. The white man (=Mr. Lee Oswald) standing right behind the black man
2. The owner of this leg:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1z9KZBk/Towner-flash-frame-0007-leg.jpg)

But who can the owner of that leg be?
The only two remotely viable candidates are
------------the man in blue (= Mr. Bill Shelley) seen back on the landing in Hughes
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bv3GKNhz/Hughes-Longer-Shelley.gif)
OR
-------------the owner of the red clothing (=Mr. Billy Lovelady, yellow arrow below) seen leaning over, and momentarily blocking the man in blue, in Hughes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

But we can rule out the man in blue on the landing (Mr. Bill Shelley) as the man waving the object because
a) he is too far back on the landing: he simply doesn't have time, in the less than two seconds between the end of the above Hughes GIF and the start of the Towner GIF, to come forward on the landing and step down far enough to be the holder of the object
b) Ms. Towner's angle--------more acute than Mr. Hughes'----------rules him out.

So it comes down to two candidates: Mr. Billy Lovelady vs. Mr. Oswald.

But we can rule out Mr. Lovelady, as Bell is just instants away from showing him like this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJhsGx8D/Bell-tshirt-larger-75-white-area.gif)

Does this look like a man waving something back and forth? And did Mr. Lovelady say anything about waving something at the P. Parade?

So-----------the person waving the sizeable object must be the man in the reddish shirt standing right behind the black man by the white west column, i.e. it must be Mr. Oswald.

Now again, ask yourself: If Mr. Oswald were to wave something at a P. Parade, what might he be likely to wave?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 14, 2023, 11:40:24 AM
Now again, ask yourself: If Mr. Oswald were to wave something at a P. Parade, what might he be likely to wave?

At the very end of this clip, we see Mr. Oswald look down to his right. I believe he is placing his Coke down on the ledge, as he readies himself to make his provocative gesture with the flag:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/hugheshouststlostbzoonfuew.gif)

He left it until the very last minute, when all eyes were on Houston St., to slip out front (didn't want to anyone to notice what he had in his non-bottle-holding hand).

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 14, 2023, 11:50:10 AM
'OK, Lee, we're going to fire shots into the air as Kennedy is passing. You do your thing down on the steps, and make sure to get that photograph to show the Cubans.'

Waving a Cuban flag at a passing President is hardly going to be enough to convince the guys in Havana of one's credentials. But doing so in coordination with an intensely provocative action being carried out upstairs, and getting a photograph of your flag with JFK in the background, might just do the job nicely.

Mr. Oswald, it would seem, was tricked into playing a symbolic side role in an actual assassination. Hearing the shots ring out, he would not have been alarmed---------he knew they were coming. But the moment he heard that Pres. Kennedy had been hit, he realized he had been set up.

The above scenario works equally well whether Mr. Oswald is a genuine pro-Castro leftist or a faux-leftist trying to get into Cuba.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 14, 2023, 12:00:41 PM
Side-Speculation:

When Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier was arrested at the hospital, his car had already been thoroughly searched. The cops also went over his home with a fine tooth comb.

What were the cops looking for precisely? I mean, they already had the murder weapon, right?

Well, put the case that they already knew (perhaps via Messrs. Lovelady & Shelley) about Mr. Oswald's little front steps caper with flag & camera. And that they had searched Mr. Oswald's Beckley room and found a camera with no roll of film in it. Where did it go, they wonder? Did he give it-------the item that contains his alibi for the shooting-------to someone for safekeeping? But who might that someone have been?

Mr. Oswald had but one friend in the Depository: Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 15, 2023, 02:32:27 AM
Friends, the insights we now have into these three film clips completely sink the core findings of the Warren Commission-------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)
[Credit for posting of source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJhsGx8D/Bell-tshirt-larger-75-white-area.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3g2PMVF/Towner-flag-slow-marked.gif)

To give a sense of just what a house of sand Warren Gullibility was built on----------before it sank once and for all with the proof furnished over the past couple of weeks of Mr. Oswald's front steps alibi----------, let us take the first few of Mr. Vincent Bugliosi's much-vaunted '51 Pieces of Evidence' against Mr. Oswald, from the close of his propaganda book Reclaiming History, and bring them up to date. I won't even bother correcting every questionable factual claim made here by Mr. Bugliosi (or whichever hired goon may have written these words). What matters for present purposes is the tendentious jumping to incriminating non sequiturs that has seen the Warren Gullibles get the case so horribly wrong:

**

1. Whenever Oswald had Wesley Frazier drive him out to visit his wife and daughters at the Paine residence in Irving, he’d go on a Friday evening and return to Dallas on Monday morning. The assassination was on Friday, November 22, 1963. For the very first time, Oswald went to Irving with Frazier on Thursday evening, November 21, obviously to pick up his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle items needed for his political stunt for the following day.

2. Oswald told Wesley Frazier he was going to Irving to pick up some curtain rods for his apartment in Dallas. But Oswald’s landlady testified that the windows in Oswald’s room on North Beckley already had curtain rods and that Oswald never discussed getting curtain rods with her. Indeed, Allen Grant, a photographer for Life magazine, took a photo of Oswald’s room on the afternoon of the assassination, and it clearly shows the curtain rods that were alreaady in his room.

Additionally, Ruth Paine had two flat, lightweight curtain rods in her garage, and they were still there after Oswald’s arrest (although this crucial fact is, strangely enough, not recorded in a single official report, despite extensive searching of the Paine garage, and only comes to light in Ruth Paine's testimony months later). Oswald never asked Ruth Paine about curtain rods at any time. When Marina was asked in her Warren Commission testimony, “On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?” she answered, “No, I didn’t have any.” Question: “He didn’t say anything like that?” “No.” This makes sense, as Oswald naturally did not wish to communicate his intentions to his wife or to Ruth Paine. And no curtain rods were found in the Book Depository Building after the assassination, other than the two curtain rods which were found there and which were tested for his prints.

If Oswald, as he claimed, brought curtain rods to work, whatever happened to them (other than their being found in the building and tested for his prints)? We know from witnesses (on the bus, the cabdriver, and Earlene Roberts) that he wasn’t carrying any long package after he left the Book Depository Building. And, as indicated, no curtain rods other than the two tested for his prints were found in the building after the assassination. As with the supposed killer behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll whom no one saw run away, and the bullet that exited Kennedy’s throat without going on to hit Connally or anything else in the presidential limousine, did the curtain rods simply vanish into thin air remain undetected somewhere in the building until they were found and then tested for Mr. Oswald's prints? One would think that things like this would at least give the Oswald defenders and conspiracy theorists pause, but instead, their eyes blazing with certainty, they tell you correctly that you just don’t understand.

In addition to the evidence showing that Oswald’s curtain rod story was a fabrication true but incomplete, the story, all by itself, is inherently implausible. If Oswald did want to pick up curtain rods at Ruth Paine’s home for his apartment, why would that require him to go there on a Thursday evening? Could he only pick them up if he went there on a Thursday evening, not a Friday evening? We now have a convincing answer to these questions: the flag-waving protest stunt had to happen on the Friday, the day of President Kennedy's visit.

3. When Oswald told Wesley Frazier why he was coming to Irving on a Thursday night—to pick up curtain rods—Frazier said to Oswald, “Oh, very well,” then added, “Well, will you be going home with me tomorrow also?” and Oswald replied, “No.” He did this because he knew he would be leaving town after the events of Friday.

4. Oswald and his wife, Marina, shared an abiding interest in President Kennedy and his family and spoke of them often. Yet on Thursday evening, the night before the assassination, when Marina brought up in conversation with Oswald the president’s scheduled visit to Dallas the next day, she said, “He just ignored a little bit, you know, to talk about [it]…maybe changed subject about talking about…newborn baby or something like that…It was quite unusual that he did not want to talk about President Kennedy being in Dallas that particular evening. That was quite peculiar.” But we can now explain it: Oswald was preoccupied with what he was going to do the following day on the front steps of the building, and with its consequences. Accordingly, he was playing down, in front of his wife, the significance to him of President Kennedy's visit.

5. Friday morning, before leaving Ruth Paine’s house in Irving, Oswald left behind his wedding ring and $170, believed to be virtually all of his money, for Marina, demonstrating that he realized he might never see her again—that is, he might not survive the assassination would in all likelihood not be seeing her or the kids after the maneuver he was contemplating had signed up for. Moreover, as he left Marina that morning, Oswald told her to use the money to buy shoes for their new baby, Rachel, and “anything” else that she felt was necessary for the children. Marina thought this to be strange since Oswald had always been “most frugal” and hardly allowed her to spend any money at all. Again, this tallies with the theory that he expected to leave Dallas the following day. It is of course conceivable that his pleading with Marina the evening before to save their marriage had been sincere, but her refusal had decided him one hundred percent to go through with the next day's political stunt, the consequences of which he knew would be life-changing for him and his family.

6. Before Oswald got into Frazier’s car that Friday morning, the day of the assassination, he placed an approximately long 27.5-inch, bulky package on the rear seat, telling Frazier it contained the curtain rods. Which it did.


**

Etc. etc. And Mr. Bugliosi hasn't even got to the time of the P. Parade yet...............!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 15, 2023, 05:01:21 AM
Now how in the world did everyone in Dealey Plaza including the SS agents, miss seeing a guy on the front steps of TSBD waving a Cuban Flag?

The SS noticed the DC man with his hand raised and they saw the Umbrella man, but they missed the Cuban Flag man right on the front steps of TSBD?

Now since Oswald might have been paranoid enough to think that displaying a Cuban Flag in the midst of Texans and the POTUS might be a dangerous act , then I guess it’s a possible reason to leave money and wedding ring for Marina.

Possible, but probable,  due to lack of evidence of Oswald ever having had a Cuban flag, or displaying such flag in the Hughes film or anywhere else.

Oswald did not display a Cuban flag in New Orleans when he was handing out those “Hands off Cuba” leaflets in the midst of Anti Castro Cubans and getting himself in a fight with one of them.

No Cuban flag in the Back Yard photo either.

In fact, since the Anti Castro Cubans displayed the same flag, then Oswald probably never would have displayed a Cuban Flag if his intent was to demonstrate himself being a PRO Castro /Marxist .

Now maybe Mr.Ford can find a RED Communist /Marxist flag being waved , somewhere in a Hughes film gif.

And then THAT might actually be a much more probable reason why Oswald could have speculated  that waving Such flag in the midst of Texans , might very well be Oswald’s last day on earth, thus he left ring and money to Marina. 🙈

Or it maybe there was no plan to wave flags , there was no attempt to shoot at JFK, and Oswald left money and his ring as a natural last act of respecting his wife’s decision, and to look for his children. 🧐



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 15, 2023, 10:51:55 AM
Now how in the world did everyone in Dealey Plaza including the SS agents, miss seeing a guy on the front steps of TSBD waving a Cuban Flag?

The SS noticed the DC man with his hand raised and they saw the Umbrella man, but they missed the Cuban Flag man right on the front steps of TSBD?

Now since Oswald might have been paranoid enough to think that displaying a Cuban Flag in the midst of Texans and the POTUS might be a dangerous act , then I guess it’s a possible reason to leave money and wedding ring for Marina.

Possible, but probable,  due to lack of evidence of Oswald ever having had a Cuban flag, or displaying such flag in the Hughes film or anywhere else.

Oswald did not display a Cuban flag in New Orleans when he was handing out those “Hands off Cuba” leaflets in the midst of Anti Castro Cubans and getting himself in a fight with one of them.

No Cuban flag in the Back Yard photo either.

In fact, since the Anti Castro Cubans displayed the same flag, then Oswald probably never would have displayed a Cuban Flag if his intent was to demonstrate himself being a PRO Castro /Marxist .

Now maybe Mr.Ford can find a RED Communist /Marxist flag being waved , somewhere in a Hughes film gif.

And then THAT might actually be a much more probable reason why Oswald could have speculated  that waving Such flag in the midst of Texans , might very well be Oswald’s last day on earth, thus he left ring and money to Marina. 🙈

Or it maybe there was no plan to wave flags , there was no attempt to shoot at JFK, and Oswald left money and his ring as a natural last act of respecting his wife’s decision, and to look for his children. 🧐

Mr. Mason, we agree that Towner shows something sizeable being waved in that doorway, yes? I say it's a flag; what do you think it is? If you think I've got this wrong, please suggest something you think might be right.

No less to the point, who do you think could possibly be waving it, if not the man in the reddish shirt standing just behind the black man at the white west column?

You point out that Mr. Oswald is not waving any flag in Hughes, and you're right. But what does that prove? That the waving object in Towner a couple of seconds later doesn't exist? Hardly. It just shows that the waving hasn't begun yet because Pres. Kennedy is not yet passing the building. Mr. Oswald has a very small window in which to make his provocative gesture. The flag in Hughes is hidden down behind the black man in front of him.

If Mr. Oswald is waving a flag at Pres. Kennedy, what is likely to be on that flag? The Stars and Stripes? "Go Home Yankee"? "Kiss Me Quick, Jack!"? Nope-----a leftist political message. I think we can agree on that.

You suggest a red flag. A reasonable suggestion, all things being equal. But all things are not equal: Bell shows the colors blue and white in front of Mr. Lovelady, whose full body only comes into view when he has shifted to his left.

So----------a provocative leftist symbol containing elements of blue and white, and (to judge from the horribly washed-out Towner) red. Is there any leftist symbol we know of containing those colors? Yes: a Cuban flag held by a Castro sympathizer.

It's true that there is no Cuban flag in the New Orleans images, or in the backyard photo. So what? His reddish shirt isn't in those images either. Does that mean he didn't own a reddish shirt?

You're quite right that the Cuban flag carried an ambiguous political message: pro-Castro revolution, anti-Castro revolution. The meaning of the flag depends on context. And what is the context here? Mr. Oswald. A man with a loud and media-amplified track record (whether authentic or feigned) of leftist politics and pro-Castro sentiments. The perfect man to use to explain to the world the meaning of the shockingly provocative political stunt that was carried out on the sixth floor. LHO waving a Cuban flag just before shots are fired: this was a pro-Castro demonstration.

Mr. Oswald's goal wasn't to be jumped on in Dealey Plaza. The ambiguity of the Cuban flag made it possible to wave it in Texas without running the risk of personal injury. The intended effect was for afterwards: That guy who was waving the Cuban flag lived in the Soviet Union and supported Castro! By the time of this realization, Mr. Oswald is already out of Dallas.

I would be surprised if no SS agent noticed the flag. And I would be surprised if any SS agent who did notice it would afterwards publicly destroy the cover-up of what was, after all, Mr. Oswald's alibi for the shooting. Of course, had a more hawkish political decision been made back in Washington-----------to blame the assassination on Castro-----------then the world would have heard all about Red Oswald in the doorway waving a Cuban flag.

As for ordinary folks in Dealey Plaza noticing or not noticing the flag, I have no doubt that Messrs. Lovelady, Shelley and Frazier noticed it, nor that they were intimidated into keeping quiet about it afterwards. (After all, they kept quiet about what we now know to be Mr. Oswald's very presence on the steps.) Ms. Pauline Sanders too (PrayerWOMAN) surely spotted it (perhaps this is the reason why she gives the misleading impression in her FBI statement that she was on the east side of the doorway?). I have also suggested that the man in black by the west white column knew what the white man just behind him had done; and I have suggested who that black man might really be.

Other than those doorway folks, however, it's not at all hard to believe that no other civilians noticed it. How many people, other than SS agents, noticed Umbrella Man or the dark-complected man with the raised hand? Pretty much everyone in Dealey Plaza except the SS agents and motorcade occupants was staring at Pres. & Mrs. Kennedy.

Is it possible that Mr. Oswald was given a flag with a solid rod already attached to it, such that there was no need for him to pick anything (flag + curtain rods) up in Irving? Sure. Maybe he went home in the hope that his wife would, by agreeing to end their separation, unkowingly convince him not to go through with the morrow's stunt. Maybe the curtain rods were a pretext for Mr. Frazier's benefit (Mr. Oswald not wanting to tell him the real, highly personal reason). But a lot hangs here on his alleged denial in custody of having brought those curtain rods to work that morning. If he really did deny that, then we must ask: why would he deny it? I have offered a plausible explanation: the curtain rods were connected to his flag-waving stunt, which he now did not wish to admit to.

Mr. Lovelady AND Mr. Oswald on the west side of the doorway means we now have Mr. Oswald's alibi for the shooting. I believe the waving object we see in Towner gives us a very special bonus: a cogent explanation for his hitherto confusing behavior prior to and after the assassination.

But again, if you still feel I've got this part about the flag wrong, feel free to show me what right might look like. But the sizeable object we see being waved right by the LHO spot in Towner cannot just be wished away.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 06:04:21 AM
Mr. Mason, we agree that Towner shows something sizeable being waved in that doorway, yes? I say it's a flag; what do you think it is?

Perhaps completely unrelated......... perhaps completely related!-------------------

Darnell:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MpVCPSpH/Darnell-Stabilized.gif)

This fellow (green arrow) appears to be holding something up (orange arrows). [Note: there is a street works barrier in front of him-----blue arrow.]

(https://i.postimg.cc/KjLSgk4G/Darnell-man-flag.jpg)

Cf:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLC5qMFc/Street-works-barrier.jpg)

He wasn't there during the P. Parade (look at the Bell frames):

(https://i.postimg.cc/bNgZMKVy/Bell-Towner.gif)

Now look at this longer clip from Darnell. As a number of researchers have noted in the past, a certain motorcycle policeman seems to be heading not straight for the front steps but for a point somewhat east of them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLPZ4vnR/darnell-unger-gif.gif)

Has something there caught his attention?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 07:14:33 AM
Cf?
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXNRp3R6/Darnell-man-flag-crop.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/kgDZVYGJ/Shelley-coffee-crop.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 12:49:47 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvGpyCJD/Darnell-baker-arrow.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 02:54:07 PM
We can see that this is the street works barrier:

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLQsGzSf/Darnell-street-barrier.gif)

And that this is the man's leg:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYDdg2gG/Darnell-leg.gif)

But what in the heck is this thing between the man and the barrier? A briefcase?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DfWr27qv/Darnell-rectangle.gif)

And what in the heck are these things that look like the legs of a junior mannequin?

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1SFGyMY/Darnell-objects.gif)

Lustrous insights gratefully received!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 03:12:17 PM
And then there's the question of how the man [EDIT: WOMAN] can be holding the object at an angle without its plunging vertically. He's [EDIT: SHE'S] in front of the larger mailbox on the (=our) right, so it's not being supported by that. And we see a little of it underneath the horizontal plank of the road works barrier, which means that barrier is not supporting it either:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9M0tDnfZ/Darnell-woman-holding-bag.gif)

Kinda reminds us, don't it, of a not wholly dissimilar question folks have asked for years about this famous object:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JhvNYPn3/Bag-multiple.jpg)

 ???
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 03:37:41 PM
Well, well, well....................

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5DG3rdP/Paper-bag1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zsHpZPN/Paper-bag1a.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/CK9x3w1R/Paper-bag2.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 04:25:25 PM
So! It turns out the first officer to see the famous paper bag was none other than Officer Marrion L. Baker. He saw it not on the sixth floor but in the hands of some civilian (perhaps Mr. Bill Shelley) who, having witnessed Mr. Oswald's political stunt and having seen Mr. Oswald leave the steps and throw the long package behind the two mailboxes in front of the Depository, had just retrieved it from behind those mailboxes and was holding it up.

Mr. Oswald had brought the flag outside wrapped in a long bag made out of TSBD wrapping paper. Having taken up his position in the doorway, he furtively took the flag out of the bag in time to have it ready to wave at Pres. Kennedy. After making this political gesture, he rolled the flag up again around its makeshift curtain-rod flagstaff and put it back in the bag. Then he left the steps and disposed of the bag as described above.

Mr. Oswald had not come into work that morning with that bag, which he only needed for concealment purposes after attaching the flagstaff to the flag (an action performed at some point while in the Depository that morning). He had come into work with the smaller bag described by Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier, containing either 'dissassembled' flag (i.e. flag + not-yet-attached extendable curtain rod/s) or just the two curtain rods (the flag having already been sourced elsewhere and hidden somewhere in the Depository). However, he was seen with the longer bag by at least one person later that day:

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.


The 'investigating' authorities knew full well the true circumstances of the long paper bag's discovery, as well as what had been in it, but they naturally took the decision to exploit the long paper bag (fingerprints, yum yum) as the bag Mr. Oswald had supposedly used to bring a rifle into work with that morning.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CK9x3w1R/Paper-bag2.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/1zsHpZPN/Paper-bag1a.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/htTnXVPt/Blanket-bag-rifle.jpg)

As for what Officer Baker did after running up to the man holding the long paper bag? Well, it's safe to say that thereby hangs a tale very different to the one he and Mr. Truly told the Warren Commission..................

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 16, 2023, 10:42:14 PM
And what in the heck are these things that look like the legs of a junior mannequin?

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1SFGyMY/Darnell-objects.gif)

Well, blow me down---------the person holding the long paper sack ain't a man but a woman in a skirt!

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxk4Gk5S/Darnell-woman-with-bag.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv5PFLTD/Woman-in-Darnell.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2023, 01:04:09 AM
Officer Baker AND a woman (red box) are running over to the woman holding up the long paper sack:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZX77QzW/Darnell-woman-bag-directions.gif)

She has just seen something that has troubled her enough to go pick the sack up and draw attention to it:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv5PFLTD/Woman-in-Darnell.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2023, 01:17:30 AM
She has just seen something that has troubled her enough to go pick the sack up and draw attention to it

Was this something the real LHO-Reid encounter?

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgYbRB6b/Reid-in-Darnell.jpg)

If so, then poor woman, what an awful burden to have to carry...................

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJvrFQdW/Reid-death-certificate-depression.jpg)

Ms. Ruth Hendrix in No More Silence:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MH1XpmgW/Hendrix-re-Reid.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2023, 01:23:08 AM
Was this something the real LHO-Reid encounter?

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgYbRB6b/Reid-in-Darnell.jpg)

Was Mrs. Reid's having handled the paper sack the real reason why Mr. Truly, in June '64, protested against the idea of fingerprints and palm prints being taken from Depository employees other than the men who had had access to the sixth floor? And why his-------------on the face of it outrageous-------------request was actually granted?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2023, 01:47:58 AM
Friends, there have been three tremendous breakthroughs in the most recent phase of this thread. These three revelations are--------NB!--------- inter-related, and they drop a nuclear bomb on the official story:

ONE.

GREEN ARROW: MR. LEE HARVEY OSWALD
YELLOW ARROW: MR. BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)
[Credit for posting of source GIF: Mr. Jerry Organ]

TWO.

MR. OSWALD WAVES A FLAG AS JFK PASSES THE BUILDING

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3g2PMVF/Towner-flag-slow-marked.gif)

THREE.

CE142 (THE PAPER BAG) SHOWS UP OUTSIDE THE DEPOSITORY IN THE DARNELL FILM---------WITH OFFICER BAKER RUNNING TOWARDS THE WOMAN WHO IS HOLDING IT UP

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zsHpZPN/Paper-bag1a.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/CK9x3w1R/Paper-bag2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9M0tDnfZ/Darnell-woman-holding-bag.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2023, 05:01:21 PM
Mr. Oswald had brought the flag outside wrapped in a long bag made out of TSBD wrapping paper. Having taken up his position in the doorway, he furtively took the flag out of the bag in time to have it ready to wave at Pres. Kennedy. After making this political gesture, he rolled the flag up again around its makeshift curtain-rod flagstaff and put it back in the bag. Then he left the steps and disposed of the bag as described above.

Friends, it's embarrassing to have to admit this, but my statement above is wrong because I was overlooking something.

Here's what I was overlooking:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1ZKPDFM/Darnell-new-frame-flag.jpg)

Mr. Oswald didn't bother returning the flag to its long paper sack-------------he just threw the damn thing on the sidewalk!

Look closely at the right hand of the woman holding the long paper sack-------------she's pointing down at the flag:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnrcMNDR/Darnell-flag.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMcXVp7R/Darnell-flag-crop.gif)

This is what caught Officer Baker's attention.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 18, 2023, 09:40:04 PM
This is what caught Officer Baker's attention.

Apropos!

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm0GSrFq/Flag4.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d02B93g2/Flag3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvkfChyx/Flag5.jpg)


"So you're the officer who found this, are you?"

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YzKKqGZ/Flag1.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 19, 2023, 03:06:48 AM
At this point in time, I’m only on board with the No. 1 speculative theory of Red shirt man in Hues film gif =Oswald ( with exception  the black male in front lower west steps is more likely Carl Jones than Roy Lewis)

I have a lot of doubt about the veracity of Loveladys “ accounts” of his movements and especially going to the lunchroom , getting a coke, then he checks the Domino room , finds no one there, then he notices  Sarah Stanton and Bill Shelly outside on the front entrance of TSBD and so Lovelady decides to go join them.

Since there does not appear to be any of the office women who saw Lovelady come to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke, then the time must either be just before the women start entering (12:00 approx ) or when all have left ( by12:15 approx)

If the latter time is correct then it interferes with the scenario of Oswald seen by Carolyn Arnold at 12:15 as well as with Oswald in Domino room 12:16-12:25 approx ( able to have  seen Norman/Jarman returning via back loading dock door).

Whom is the more credible witness, Lovelady or Carolyn Arnold?

Certainly the WC favored Lovelady as a means to discount Carolyn Arnold , to discount Adams  and Styles on the stairs at 30 secs post shots,  in turn discounting Mrs Garner by staircase as early as 40 sec post shots,  and finally as a possible counter to FBI agent Hosty, should he ever disclose his account of an interview with Oswald ie: Got a coke from 2nd floor lunchroom, went down to eat lunch in Domino room, then went out to watch P. Parade,

 Will Fritz became a very useful servant to LBJ once he got the phone call that “Oswald is our man” and Fritz set about the task of making an interview without using any device to record the interview , nor using an attorney nor even a court stenographer.

So it’s very plausible that Oswald did in fact state quite a lot more than we will ever know, to Will Fritz , some details that clearly proved Oswald had an alibi.

Imo, the only reason that Fritz even bothered to include a few scribbles referencing 2 negroes and a name”junior” was to attempt to make Oswald a liar.

Fact is however, a scenario at the time of 12:01-12:10, when Norman and Jarman are in the Domino and do not see Oswald,  does NOT refute the possibility that  Oswald saw THEM at a latter time of 12:23-24 returning via the back door of TSBD when Oswald was by himself in the Domino room.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 19, 2023, 08:21:53 AM
At this point in time, I’m only on board with the No. 1 speculative theory of Red shirt man in Hues film gif =Oswald

Oh but it's not speculative, Mr. Mason------------Hughes/Bell/Towner leave no room for the speculation that that man could be Mr. Billy Lovelady. I have proved that both men were standing in the west half of the front doorway at the time of the shooting. Mr. Oswald is therefore no more a candidate for SN shooter than is Mr. Lovelady------------or any other person standing in that doorway.

The observation that the shadow down Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman is not naturalistically possible is an observation of fact, not a speculation.

The observation that something sizeable is being waved right by the LHO spot in Towner is an observation of fact, not a speculation.

The observation that Officer Baker is NOT running for the doorway in Darnell is an observation of fact, not a speculation.

The observation that the object held in the woman's hand in Darnell matches the appearance of CE142 is an observation of fact, not a speculation.

The observation that right in front of her is a sizeable object lying on the ground is an observation of fact, not a speculation.

If you disagree with any of the above, I'd be interested to hear your counter-analysis of the images.

What all these observed facts do is transform our understanding of what happened that day.

Mr. Oswald was up to mischief. It involved some untoward stunt he was pulling on the front steps, connected surely with what was being done from the sixth floor---------------or at least what he thought was being done from up there. Whatever was on that flag (Cuban colors? 'Hands off Cuba'?), it 'explained' to DPD what had just happened, and it made Mr. Oswald a suspect in the assassination--------------but not a suspected sixth-floor shooter.

When Mr. Oswald was brought in, DPD thought they had him for the Tippit murder and as an accomplice in the Dealey Plaza assassination. But then orders come down from on high: pin everything on Oswald and Oswald alone. The political motivation announced by whatever was on Mr. Oswald's flag was too dangerous------------the world must be given to understand that there was no conspiracy, just a crazy guy acting entirely alone.

This meant that the 'investigating' authorities had to bury the true events in and by that front doorway----------Mr. Oswald, flag, long paper sack, Officer Baker, everything.

Thankfully, the visual record has left us enough evidence to put the pieces back together.

Quote
Just as the observation that the ( with exception  the black male in front lower west steps is more likely Carl Jones than Roy Lewis)

This binary choice is out of date: 'Roy Lewis' seems to be out on the south grass in Bronson. And there is a tall man in white standing over by the east column of the doorway.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 19, 2023, 01:31:31 PM
[Reserved]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 19, 2023, 09:21:00 PM
Is this officer wearing gloves?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZryFrjd/Front-steps-for-wiegman-shadow-12-58-gloves.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 19, 2023, 10:17:04 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zNNDs8Z/funny-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I may have just blown this case wide open.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 20, 2023, 12:02:57 AM
Klingons use bat’leths. Rookie error.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 20, 2023, 12:26:15 AM
A bat'leth is some kind of double-sided scimitar/hook sword/lujiaodao hybrid-edged weapon with a curved blade, four points, and three handholds on the back.

We are clearly looking at some kind of Disruptor.

I'm obviously onto something, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to muddy the water.



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 20, 2023, 03:53:44 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zNNDs8Z/funny-TSBD.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I may have just blown this case wide open.

 :D

This from the guy who's still stuck way, way back at the 'No, I can't explain that shadow down Lovelady, but I know it means nothing' stage of denial.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHdbkSBX/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER-text.jpg)

Now! Back to the question:

Is this police officer wearing gloves?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZryFrjd/Front-steps-for-wiegman-shadow-12-58-gloves.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 20, 2023, 04:10:17 AM
As a number of researchers have noted in the past, a certain motorcycle policeman seems to be heading not straight for the front steps but for a point somewhat east of them

It was Mr. Sandy Larsen who first spotted this back in 2016, posting this striking GIF:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

Mr. Larsen suspected Officer Baker was heading for the Dal-Tex building, but------------to his lasting credit-------------was not dogmatic about this single solution.

He wrote: "It is obvious that Baker was not headed for the TSBD entrance. (He was headed to the right of it.) But if not, what explains the path he is taking?"

I believe we now have the answer to his question.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 20, 2023, 09:31:17 AM
:D

This from the guy who's still stuck way, way back at the 'No, I can't explain that shadow down Lovelady, but I know it means nothing' stage of denial.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHdbkSBX/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER-text.jpg)

Really?
I believe my explanation was that Lovelady was just turned to the side, looking out over his shoulder.

Quote
Now! Back to the question:

Is this police officer wearing gloves?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZryFrjd/Front-steps-for-wiegman-shadow-12-58-gloves.jpg)

Maybe it's one of those big foam hands you get at sports events with "Go Oswald" written on it.
Why is Fritz wearing a black oven mitt? It's the key to understanding the whole mystery. I bet you can't answer that question. And if you can't answer that question, you'll never understand what's happening.
I understand it's been tough on you Alan, all those years spent peddling the nonsense that Sarah Stanton was in fact Oswald stood in the corner of the front landing, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you.
In a way it's admirable as I'm sure there were a lot of disciples of the Church of Prayerman who couldn't face how stupid they'd been and who now live in complete denial.
At least you've toned it down a bit and are finally using common sense.....wait on a second...........what's that??
Oswald down by the front steps waving a Cuban flag tied to a curtain rod??
 :D :D :D
Mrs Reid stood outside holding the rifle bag??
 :D :D :D
You really are priceless. I bet the Prayerman lot are glad you left  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 20, 2023, 10:49:58 AM
Really?
I believe my explanation was that Lovelady was just turned to the side, looking out over his shoulder.

Oh, my apologies, Mr. O'Meara, I thought you were joking. I thought you couldn't possibly be suggesting that Mr. Lovelady's shoulder was showing all that white tshirt, with the shirt collar clearly there to its left

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHdbkSBX/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-small-ER-text.jpg)

If you were (and are) serious, then please accept my belated thanks for the most amusing 'solution' since Mr. Mytton's claim that Mr. Lovelady is way back on the landing bending down to tie his shoelaces!

 :D

Quote
Maybe it's one of those big foam hands you get at sports events with "Go Oswald" written on it.
Why is Fritz wearing a black oven mitt? It's the key to understanding the whole mystery. I bet you can't answer that question. And if you can't answer that question, you'll never understand what's happening.
I understand it's been tough on you Alan, all those years spent peddling the nonsense that Sarah Stanton was in fact Oswald stood in the corner of the front landing, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you.
In a way it's admirable as I'm sure there were a lot of disciples of the Church of Prayerman who couldn't face how stupid they'd been and who now live in complete denial.
At least you've toned it down a bit and are finally using common sense.....wait on a second...........what's that??
Oswald down by the front steps waving a Cuban flag tied to a curtain rod??
 :D :D :D
Mrs Reid stood outside holding the rifle bag??
 :D :D :D
You really are priceless. I bet the Prayerman lot are glad you left  ;)

~Grin~

I'm not interested in your opinion, Mr. O'Meara (why would the opinion of a rabid member of Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps be of value?). What I am interested in is whether you have any substance to back it up.

We can start anywhere. Let's try this one:

What do you think this is? Pigeon droppings? A giant handkerchief accidentally dropped by Mr. Jack Dougherty just after firing from the sixth-floor window? What you got for us?

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1ZKPDFM/Darnell-new-frame-flag.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 20, 2023, 02:24:27 PM
Is this officer wearing gloves?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZryFrjd/Front-steps-for-wiegman-shadow-12-58-gloves.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Friends, I've found the footage in The Lost Assassination Tapes. The frame above contains motion blur, giving an odd appearance to the object the officer is holding. Here's a clearer frame:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqn9GWxB/Rifle-no-glove.jpg)

Just a rifle, and no glove!

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 20, 2023, 02:25:56 PM
Apropos!

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L4jV7cf6/Flag-colors.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 21, 2023, 10:34:26 AM
Hmmm............

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvKcpCTj/Skaggs-white-sheet-marked.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 21, 2023, 02:01:39 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0L5KPT3/Towner-flag-movement.gif)

Given the way the flag is flapping, it appears to be attached to something on its right (i.e. west) side.

And given that we have just seen---------a mere couple of seconds earlier in Hughes-----------the black man down by the white west column raise an empty left hand to wave at P. Parade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKjx1Z6R/Hughes-raised-hand.gif)

:  it appears the only person who can possibly be waving this flag is the white man in the reddish shirt standing directly behind that black man

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 21, 2023, 09:38:11 PM
:  it appears the only person who can possibly be waving this flag is the white man in the reddish shirt standing directly behind that black man

(https://i.postimg.cc/q79p2YNZ/Belltowner-key.gif)

I was wrong to dismiss, as film noise, the flickering over the head of this woman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kX2rns1j/Belltowner-woman-with-handkerchief.jpg)

It is indeed a handkerchief or scarf. However, it is nowhere near in the right position to account for the sizeable flapping object in Towner which we have been talking about.

From young Ms. Towner's position, well to the east of Mr. Bell, the woman waving the handkerchief/scarf is all but blocked by the old woman in blue. She is waving her right arm left and right, and we get a glimpse of this in Towner. And Towner also catches, over the head of the old woman in blue, a tiny bit of the flickering of the handkerchief/scarf:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tCW1m33c/Belltowner-scarf-handkerchief.gif)

The sizeable flapping object in Towner is NOT from anything out in the street. It is in the doorway, in the most interesting spot imaginable:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0L5KPT3/Towner-flag-movement.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 21, 2023, 09:58:03 PM
Having a much better sense now of the modest dimensions of the sizeable object in the doorway---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0L5KPT3/Towner-flag-movement.gif)

---------------we can, I think, safely say that it is a lot too small to be either of these:

(https://i.postimg.cc/155S8TsP/Skaggs-white-sheet-marked-small.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/MKcKdTrX/Flag2-small.jpg)

It seems to be just a regular-sized flag, of the sort that lots of folks turned up with at Love Field and along the P. Parade route.

But the man waving it was far from just a regular spectator of the P. Parade. Mr. Oswald was up to something.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 21, 2023, 11:16:26 PM
So, to the merchants of 'Nothing To See Here', I have a simple challenge:
Show me where I have gone wrong in this matter.

Do YOU have ANY alternative suggestion for

a) what the sizeable flapping object is (if not a flag)?
b) where it is (if not in the doorway)?
c) who is waving it (if not the man in the reddish shirt we have just seen in Hughes)?

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0L5KPT3/Towner-flag-movement.gif)

If my analysis is off, then it should be the easiest thing in the world to debunk it, right?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 22, 2023, 07:14:34 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 22, 2023, 07:44:10 AM
This is not a coat blowing in the wind---------------it remains in this position across multiple frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbP1Spjg/Darnell-woman-holding-bag.gif)

And look at the distance from the bottom of it to the woman's legs:

(https://i.postimg.cc/85Ph7dXk/Woman-darnell.gif)

What do YOU think it is? The trunk of a little tree? A cape made of plastic?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 22, 2023, 10:55:18 PM
The white lump by the curb Looks more like a trash bag to me :)

Mr. Ford , you’ve got to admit it’s quite a leap from guessing what something is to making a declarative statement that the object or fuzzy image is a flag.

This causes some people to ROFL and completely dismiss the entire theory.

Although I’m kind of amused myself by this amazing ability Mr.Ford has of constructing a theory, (to almost LOL) ,  I’m never the less going to stay with it for a little longer, until some one definitively proves a 1963 camera that Hughes used, could morph  black checkerboard square pattern of Loveladys shirt into the reddish brown seemingly solid texture ( as it appears to me anyway).

Maybe an experiment should be conducted setting up the same type camera where Hughes was and have a man wearing Loveladys shirt be filmed at that 12:30 time of day in November, and at the correct distance.

Not sure I follow logic of using a Cuban flag and waiting to very last sec to display the flag, which it doesn’t even appear to have been accomplished in the 1st place.

So imo, the reddish and whitish blob in Towner film , that Mr Ford perceives to be a Cuban Flag,  MAY instead be Oswald moving from against the west wall to the position in front of and just below Lovelady.

Possibly conspirators  spotted Oswald in the Towner film and so added a drop of black to remove Oswald’s head? This would be a very minimal way to change what would be obviously a persons body into a more anomalous reddish blob.

Is not the current speculative reason for the anomalous shadow on Lovelady in Weigman film that Oswald ( or Oswald’s head at least) had to be darkened out?

If so, then has it not been illustrated by the yellow eclipse of where Oswald would theoretically be in Weigman that Oswald must have moved slightly eastward to be where he was in Wiegman film?

And then Oswald moved BACK to the west wall and took probably his last drink of coke , such that he got captured in Altgens photo doing exactly the same raising the arm up like he did earlier in Hughes film?

For these reasons therefore, it seems more probable imo, that the “flapping” effect may just be the camera blur of Oswald having having moved over and down one step for a few seconds , such that he was captured not only in Weigman film , but ALSO in the Towner film and Bell films. And the absence of a head on that reddish blob being conspirators hiding that this IS ANOTHER PERSON wearing a reddish/ brown shirt unbuttoned with white T-shirt showing.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 12:16:01 AM
it seems more probable imo, that the “flapping” effect may just be the camera blur of Oswald having having moved over and down one step for a few seconds ,

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dHLxv2T/Towner-waving.gif)

I suggest that the rectangular object flapping furiously in the wind is a flag.

You suggest this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gt5mxCJD/Elvis.gif)

I'm pretty sure my suggestion is not the one that's ROFL-worthy.

I'm afraid the rest of your post is terribly confused too, Mr. Mason. I'll deal with some of its points separately.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 23, 2023, 12:40:55 AM
Although I’m kind of amused myself by this amazing ability Mr.Ford has of constructing a theory, (to almost LOL) ,  I’m never the less going to stay with it for a little longer, until some one definitively proves a 1963 camera that Hughes used, could morph  black checkerboard square pattern of Loveladys shirt into the reddish brown seemingly solid texture ( as it appears to me anyway).

Certain sized patterns converge into solids because of distance from the camera and the limitations of 8mm film. In addition to Lovelady's shirt, the slants on the window blinds and the brickwork of the Depository and other buildings are solids.

Quote
Maybe an experiment should be conducted setting up the same type camera where Hughes was and have a man wearing Loveladys shirt be filmed at that 12:30 time of day in November, and at the correct distance.

Take a picture of a man outside wearing plaid and try various degrees of reduction, to simulate distance from camera.

Quote
Not sure I follow logic of using a Cuban flag and waiting to very last sec to display the flag, which it doesn’t even appear to have been accomplished in the 1st place.

So imo, the reddish and whitish blob in Towner film , that Mr Ford perceives to be a Cuban Flag,  MAY instead be Oswald moving from against the west wall to the position in front of and just below Lovelady.

Less manipulated versions of Towner show the object moving more natural, as if it were a person. Less manipulated versions of Hughes show dark-bluish reflections off the glass doors and not a reddish blob.

Ford is taking advantage of severely-compromised animations, possibly from the "Lost Bullet" morphed "enhancements". I know I posted one of those GIFs (found through a search), but I wouldn't use it for frame-by-frame analysis once I saw the artifacts in enlargements.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 12:53:07 AM
Although I’m kind of amused myself by this amazing ability Mr.Ford has of constructing a theory,

And I'm kind of amazed by your amusing ability to miss key points of the hypothesis being presented!

Here's what I'm hypothesizing:

1. Mr. Oswald brings out a flag, concealed inside what will become CE142, and awaits his moment. Whatever is on the flag (national colors? 'Viva Fidel'? 'Hands off Cuba'?), it is something politically provocative

2. When Pres. Kennedy is passing the building, Mr. Oswald waves the flag, and takes a photograph to capture the moment. The aim is not to be noticed waving the flag by lots of folks in Dealey Plaza, but to have photographic proof that he was there, doing this, when shots were fired into the air from the sixth floor. This proof he intends to instrumentalize in some way (perhaps to gain entry into Cuba on the basis that he was a participant in the [non-lethal, as Mr. Oswald has been tricked into believing] Glorious Action of 11/22). Mr. Oswald will, per plan, discard the long paper bag (with flag inside) near the front steps, knowing it will be discovered and will make the news coverage of the Dealey Plaza incident

3. After the shots ring out, Mr. Oswald returns the flag inside the long paper bag. He leaves the steps

4. Off the steps he has an encounter with a woman who has come running up. Something he says, or something in his demeanor, as well as his subsequent action of discarding the long paper sack between the two mailboxes and walking away, troubles her

5. She goes to the mailboxes and retrieves the long paper sack, and tries to draw attention

6. She is noticed by Officer Baker, who runs not for the doorway but for her.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 01:12:19 AM
I’m never the less going to stay with it for a little longer, until some one definitively proves a 1963 camera that Hughes used, could morph  black checkerboard square pattern of Loveladys shirt into the reddish brown seemingly solid texture ( as it appears to me anyway).

Maybe an experiment should be conducted setting up the same type camera where Hughes was and have a man wearing Loveladys shirt be filmed at that 12:30 time of day in November, and at the correct distance.


Yeah, but no need, Mr. Mason. The longer Hughes GIF which Mr. Jerry Organ posted confirmed what I was saying all along on the basis of close analysis of Hughes/Bell/Towner---------------there are TWO red-shirted men on the west side of the doorway

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

Mr. Oswald is the man in the reddish shirt standing behind the black man. And the ridiculous shadow down Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman only makes assurance doubly sure that this was the great problem faced by the cover-up 'investigators'. It's the reason why I have consistently used that shadow as a litmus test for intellectual honesty: either explain it convincingly as a naturalistic phenomenon, or stop pretending you're doing objective research. (To your credit, you are not in denial about this shadow. The Warren Gullibles, and other foolish members of Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps, are TERRIFIED of that shadow.)

Now: you misrepresent what I have been saying for several weeks now about Mr. Oswald in Wiegman. I am saying he is STILL in the place we see him in in Hughes & Towner, but he has had a fake shadow placed over his entire person. There was no other option left to those tasked with covering up his presence on the steps: the original Wiegman frames showed Mr. Oswald's features. So they made folks believe what we have known for some time now to be a flat lie: that a good quarter of the doorway was in natural shadow.

Incidentally, credit for spotting the problem with that shadow goes to Mr. Barry Pollard. (I wonder why he stopped posting? His presence here raised the general intellectual quotient!)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 01:18:04 AM
And then Oswald moved BACK to the west wall and took probably his last drink of coke , such that he got captured in Altgens photo doing exactly the same raising the arm up like he did earlier in Hughes film?

I now suspect that the 'Coke' (in the Cronkite version of Altgens------------i.e. the original version of Altgens) is in fact the object attached to the flag, which Mr. Oswald is lowering now that Pres. Kennedy has passed the building and his little stunt is performed

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 01:21:53 AM
Ford is taking advantage of severely-compromised animations, possibly from the "Lost Bullet" morphed "enhancements". I know I posted one of those GIFs (found through a search), but I wouldn't use it for frame-by-frame analysis once I saw the artifacts in enlargements.

 :D

Yah, keep gaslighting, Mr. Organ. If you had this much reddish shirt showing up at the SN window in Hughes, you'd be crying tears of joy and jubilation!

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 02:14:40 AM
Less manipulated versions of Hughes show dark-bluish reflections off the glass doors and not a reddish blob.

You're going to wish you hadn't said this, Mr. Organ...................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 23, 2023, 10:24:35 AM
Friends, when Mr. Organ writes "Less manipulated versions of Hughes show dark-bluish reflections off the glass doors and not a reddish blob", he is of course talking utter nonsense, based on studious inspection of non-relevant frames in the sequence. Anyone with eyes to see can see the red which appears momentarily to the left of young Ms. Toni Glover (yellow arrow):

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

Why does Mr. Organ try to gaslight us in this way? Because----------as always----------he is interested not in truth but in defending the official story, which needs Mr. Oswald kept away from those steps.

However! In the course of making a ridiculous claim (no red, only blue), he has inadvertently hit upon a fact that forces ME to make new sense of that blue and that red, and to acknowledge an interpretive misstep of my own. And for that I'm grateful, because-------------unlike Mr. Organ--------------I care only about getting things right.

The bluish person way back on the landing is NOT (as I had thought) Mr. Bill Shelley standing just in front of the glass. It is the reflection of a person dressed in blue who is standing on the landing, several feet from the glass. We also see the reflection of that person's head (as well as their actual head just over Mr. Oswald's).

This person may be Mr. Shelley, but is probably PrayerWOMAN.

And! The red which appears momentarily (marked above by yellow arrow) is NOT Mr. Lovelady leaning over from his standing position on the landing or one step down. It is the reflection of Mr. Oswald's right arm as he moves it right of his body.

So! I'm back to my original conclusion: Mr. Lovelady does not show in Hughes because he is blocked from view by Ms. Glover's body. He is standing on the fourth step up, not far from the center rail.

'Having' Mr. Lovelady in Hughes was a delicious bonus, but if it ain't him it ain't him. If anything, understanding that bit of red as a reflection re-simplifies matters, for it means Mr. Lovelady does not need to move down a couple of steps in the very short interval of time between Hughes and Towner/Bell. All he does is lean to his right, and then (as shown in Bell) return to his upright posture:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ80VfBr/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

What's the betting that Mr. Organ will now suddenly forget all his authoritative talk of "manipulated" Hughes frames and instead 'discover' 'high-quality' frames that confirm that yes, there is after all an appearance of red in front of the blue?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on March 23, 2023, 08:06:41 PM
   Here is my latest simulation of the Book Depository doorway, featuring Mr. Billy Lovelady’s changes of location and posture from the beginning of Wiegman’s film (W1) to four to five seconds (IIRC) later for his second sweep of the doorway (W2). Ike Altgens took his famous image #6 showing Mr. Lovelady in a somewhat twisted configuration.. My 3D simulation is taken from Wiegmans’s camera as it moves in the moving motorcade. A comparison with the Altgens position is also modeled, capturing the transit of Lovelady from the landing to one step below. Note, without the bending and twisting he could not be standing erect in the final Wiegman scene (W2), as he would be too tall (relative to the hat of Mrs. Ruth Dean portrayed in black here. And too short to be on the second step below). Also note that I did not model the actual articulations necessary to drop a step but used a simple line-of-site from the landing to second step locations. Lovelady’s white undershirt is not something I can model with my software. I’m using a ‘checker’ pattern of large red and white tiles. The chest tiles meet at the vertical center of the models torso.

(https://i.imgur.com/iD9V52W.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kbRMVaH.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Charles Collins on March 23, 2023, 11:41:17 PM
   Here is my latest simulation of the Book Depository doorway, featuring Mr. Billy Lovelady’s changes of location and posture from the beginning of Wiegman’s film (W1) to four to five seconds (IIRC) later for his second sweep of the doorway (W2). Ike Altgens took his famous image #6 showing Mr. Lovelady in a somewhat twisted configuration.. My 3D simulation is taken from Wiegmans’s camera as it moves in the moving motorcade. A comparison with the Altgens position is also modeled, capturing the transit of Lovelady from the landing to one step below. Note, without the bending and twisting he could not be standing erect in the final Wiegman scene (W2), as he would be too tall (relative to the hat of Mrs. Ruth Dean portrayed in black here. And too short to be on the second step below). Also note that I did not model the actual articulations necessary to drop a step but used a simple line-of-site from the landing to second step locations. Lovelady’s white undershirt is not something I can model with my software. I’m using a ‘checker’ pattern of large red and white tiles. The chest tiles meet at the vertical center of the models torso.

(https://i.imgur.com/iD9V52W.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kbRMVaH.gif)


Well done as usual. Thanks!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 24, 2023, 12:31:52 AM
   Here is my latest simulation of the Book Depository doorway, featuring Mr. Billy Lovelady’s changes of location and posture from the beginning of Wiegman’s film (W1) to four to five seconds (IIRC) later for his second sweep of the doorway (W2). Ike Altgens took his famous image #6 showing Mr. Lovelady in a somewhat twisted configuration.. My 3D simulation is taken from Wiegmans’s camera as it moves in the moving motorcade. A comparison with the Altgens position is also modeled, capturing the transit of Lovelady from the landing to one step below. Note, without the bending and twisting he could not be standing erect in the final Wiegman scene (W2), as he would be too tall (relative to the hat of Mrs. Ruth Dean portrayed in black here. And too short to be on the second step below). Also note that I did not model the actual articulations necessary to drop a step but used a simple line-of-site from the landing to second step locations. Lovelady’s white undershirt is not something I can model with my software. I’m using a ‘checker’ pattern of large red and white tiles. The chest tiles meet at the vertical center of the models torso.

(https://i.imgur.com/iD9V52W.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kbRMVaH.gif)

I have been looking forward to this for a long time, Mr. Hackerott, so thank you very much for doing it! I am particularly appreciative of your having taken the trouble to go some way (within the limits of the software) towards marking the white tshirt.

Could I trouble you to give us a simple scaled two-image GIF going back and forth between
a) your final frame here
b) the 'target' Wiegman frame?

This would be most helpful, as there seems to be a marked lack of correspondence in several key points

(https://i.postimg.cc/90VTgJ9h/Hackerott-Wiegman-simulation-frame-0016-photo.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 24, 2023, 12:50:16 AM
Is Mr. Lovelady still in transit? It doesn't look at all like it------------------the height/location of his head relative to other stationary markers does not change from frame to frame

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jntj3h9W/Wiegman-lovelady-head-height.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 24, 2023, 01:39:10 PM
The great merit of this 3D simulation is that it does not pretend that Mr. Lovelady can possibly be catching natural shadow. As we know, that way madness lies!

However, its alternative approach----------trying to disappear most of the right half of Mr. Lovelady's upper body by going all in on (i) the Wiegman angle and (ii) a most improbably awkward posture for Mr. Lovelady in the lower frames-----------just ends up showing the extremes one has to go to to reverse-engineer a result even remotely resembling what Wiegman actually shows.

This imagined movement is (in every sense) quite a reach..................

(https://i.postimg.cc/3RGfVfV6/Hackerott-Lovelady-lean.gif)

And even then, even keeping the contortion of Mr. Lovelady's upper body constant while simply pushing it downward, without moving the position of his feet, does not yield a credible reconstruction of what we see in the Wiegman frames, where Mr. Lovelady's posture clearly changes between 'upper' to 'lower' frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/66Zb6Qzv/Hackerott-Lovelady-positions.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/4dbNvGsN/Wiegman-Lovelady-positions.gif)

Here's a much more promising point of comparison for the lower frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVDTc5PB/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-Lovelady.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/FHTLXjLV/Lovelady-shirt-1967.jpg)

Mr. Lovelady, his body facing forward.

Cf! The one useful contribution which Mr. Mytton (he of 'It's a natural shadow! Maybe Lovelady's bending down to tie his shoelaces!' fame) made to the debate:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLKM49BL/mytton-lovelady-contrast-striped-shirt.gif)

The undoctored frames showed the distinctive pattern of Mr. Lovelady's shirt------------------something the cover-up 'investigators', at the time of their 'investigation', did not want people to see.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 24, 2023, 04:30:59 PM
Is Mr. Lovelady still in transit? It doesn't look at all like it------------------the height/location of his head relative to other stationary markers does not change from frame to frame

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jntj3h9W/Wiegman-lovelady-head-height.gif)

I may be wrong, but I don't believe that's what James is saying at all.
As Weigman's camera sweeps in front of the TSBD there are two distinct moments the area of the front steps are shown.
One is as the camera naturally sweeps around going past the the area of the steps (WI) and a second time when the camera suddenly pans back to that area for a very brief moment (W2).
In WI (as James shows in his graphic) it appears that Lovelady is on the top step. When the camera pans back to the steps it seems as if Lovelady has moved down a step or two.
I'm assuming that James' graphic is showing that movement between W1 and W2.
And, even though I've examined Altgens 6 dozens of times, I haven't taken on board how Lovelady's body is twisted so that it is almost front-on to Altgens' position. This would make it side-on to Weigman's position.
All we have to do is imagine that Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6 but, instead of looking towards Altgens, Lovelady is looking to his left. And Hey Presto! This is what we see in Weigman's frames (W2).
Exactly as I've been saying all along.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 24, 2023, 05:48:12 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't believe that's what James is saying at all.
As Weigman's camera sweeps in front of the TSBD there are two distinct moments the area of the front steps are shown.
One is as the camera naturally sweeps around going past the the area of the steps (WI) and a second time when the camera suddenly pans back to that area for a very brief moment (W2).
In WI (as James shows in his graphic) it appears that Lovelady is on the top step. When the camera pans back to the steps it seems as if Lovelady has moved down a step or two.
I'm assuming that James' graphic is showing that movement between W1 and W2.
And, even though I've examined Altgens 6 dozens of times, I haven't taken on board how Lovelady's body is twisted so that it is almost front-on to Altgens' position. This would make it side-on to Weigman's position.
All we have to do is imagine that Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6 but, instead of looking towards Altgens, Lovelady is looking to his left. And Hey Presto! This is what we see in Weigman's frames (W2).
Exactly as I've been saying all along.  Thumb1:

Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz0r40Y8/Hackerott-Lovelady-positions.gif)

All of which said! I do see now that 3D Mr. Lovelady's left leg goes down a step:

(https://i.imgur.com/kbRMVaH.gif)

However, this makes matters worse. If Mr. Lovelady's left foot is already taking him forward/down a step, then having him bend forward deeply like a 95-year-old is fanciful, to say the least. And the idea that he then stays there in that geriatric posture across several frames is downright absurd.....................

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzX0PtzK/Hackerott-Lovelady-lean.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Jntj3h9W/Wiegman-lovelady-head-height.gif)

Not that even THAT extreme contrivance yields a visually credible reconstruction of what Wiegman is showing.

We need to see a scaled 2-image overlay GIF containing:

a) this Wiegman frame
(https://i.postimg.cc/pL7MkZWh/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-Lovelady.jpg)

b) the proposed 3D equivalent

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 24, 2023, 06:43:52 PM
Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz0r40Y8/Hackerott-Lovelady-positions.gif)

All of which said! I do see now that 3D Mr. Lovelady's left leg goes down a step:

(https://i.imgur.com/kbRMVaH.gif)

However, this makes matters worse. If Mr. Lovelady's left foot is already taking him forward/down a step, then having him bend forward deeply like a 95-year-old is fanciful, to say the least. And the idea that he then stays there in that geriatric posture across several frames is downright absurd.....................

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzX0PtzK/Hackerott-Lovelady-lean.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Jntj3h9W/Wiegman-lovelady-head-height.gif)

Not that even THAT extreme contrivance yields a visually credible reconstruction of what Wiegman is showing.

We need to see a scaled 2-image overlay GIF containing:

a) this Wiegman frame
(https://i.postimg.cc/pL7MkZWh/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-Lovelady.jpg)

b) the proposed 3D equivalent

 Thumb1:

Hmmm...
A couple of points to make.
I take it that you do now agree that James' graphic represents Lovelady's movement between W1 and W2?
You just seem to skirt over this issue without accepting or refusing it.
I think you should clarify your position on that.

Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

You seem to think that I've changed my position on that.
What I've described in the post you were responding to is Lovelady looking out towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder.
I'm saying the same thing but you seem a little confused.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough on this point.
People's heads can turn to the left and to the right without their torso moving it's all in the neck.
If Lovelady's body is turned facing Weigman side-on, as Altgens 6 seems to suggest, when he turns his head to the left he is looking towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder.
I honestly don't think I can put this in a simpler, more understandable way.

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!

Erm...yes, you are.
I asked it in the post you were responding to.
Lovelady's body is turned to face Altgens around z255.
The W2 frames can only be a few seconds before z255 [I'm just guessing this but it seems right].
So, why wouldn't Lovelady's body position be the same in Altgens 6 and the W2 frames?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 24, 2023, 07:25:43 PM
Hmmm...
A couple of points to make.
I take it that you do now agree that James' graphic represents Lovelady's movement between W1 and W2?

Yes--------already clarified, Mr. O'Meara  ::)

This is how able-bodied people go down steps:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9dmn3RF/Davidson-Prayerman-FBI-Lightened.gif)

If, on the other hand, you have evidence that Mr. Lovelady had injured his back while working on the floor-laying project, share it with us!

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzX0PtzK/Hackerott-Lovelady-lean.gif)

Otherwise, this imagined posture is just too fanciful to be seriously countenanced.

Mr. Hackerott-----of whose 3D modeling talents I am in sincere awe------deserves credit for being the only person to attempt some solution that does NOT take wild recourse to an impossible shadow being cast in that part of the doorway. That his solution doesn't work, even after intensive imaginative contorting of Mr. Lovelady's body, only proves my point------------------and explains eloquently why everyone else has run away from the challenge up to this.

This fancied scenario of 3D Mr. Lovelady stooping low just to take a step down represents the reductio ad absurdum of the 'No Fake Shadow' position:

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzX0PtzK/Hackerott-Lovelady-lean.gif)

That it's good enough to convince Mr. Collins, who automatically laps up anything he sees as shoring up the official story, should make alarm bells go off in your head. Then again, you are as fanatical a member of Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps as he is, so birds of a feather etc.

Quote
People's heads can turn to the left and to the right without their torso moving it's all in the neck.
If Lovelady's body is turned facing Weigman side-on, as Altgens 6 seems to suggest, when he turns his head to the left he is looking towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder.

'Lovelady looking over his left shoulder'

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLpZZ9Z2/Wiegman-Lovelady-shoulder.gif)

Are you okay, Mr. O'Meara? Seriously, I'm worried.......................

 :(
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on March 24, 2023, 09:13:00 PM
Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz0r40Y8/Hackerott-Lovelady-positions.gif)

All of which said! I do see now that 3D Mr. Lovelady's left leg goes down a step:

(https://i.imgur.com/kbRMVaH.gif)

However, this makes matters worse. If Mr. Lovelady's left foot is already taking him forward/down a step, then having him bend forward deeply like a 95-year-old is fanciful, to say the least. And the idea that he then stays there in that geriatric posture across several frames is downright absurd.....................

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzX0PtzK/Hackerott-Lovelady-lean.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Jntj3h9W/Wiegman-lovelady-head-height.gif)

Not that even THAT extreme contrivance yields a visually credible reconstruction of what Wiegman is showing.

We need to see a scaled 2-image overlay GIF containing:

a) this Wiegman frame
(https://i.postimg.cc/pL7MkZWh/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-Lovelady.jpg)

b) the proposed 3D equivalent

 Thumb1:
Here is the requested 2 frame GIF depicting my W2 pose with a Weisberg full frame image. The doorway frame required reprocessing with a camera tilt to match the reference frame. Note that while reviewing my notes I realized I transposed the values for “TorsoRot” for the W1 and W2 positions. I’ve corrected that mistake in this and future forthcoming work. I’m redoing the animations, but  I don’t expect substantive changes. Not sure what to do with the Bobblehead GIF?

(https://i.imgur.com/ODXiSEm.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on March 24, 2023, 10:31:54 PM
There could never be two heads there at the same time, it would have been a dead giveaway. Therefore, a little more creative artistry was in order.
The shadow knockout under the chin/across the neck wasn't done very well, but the white chested extended shirt was.
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/WiegmanAltered.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 24, 2023, 11:38:27 PM
Now if Someone can insert a body that represents Oswald’s 5’-9” 135 lb body into the gap between Prayer Woman and Lovelady and about a step or 2 up from the ground level and try to simulate the movement that is described by Mr Ford “as flapping”, that would be most helpful.

Perhaps also see how an Oswald model of a figure unfurling a flag would look in this space.

Also try placing the Oswald figure over against the West wall where the red shirt man in Hughes film is , raising the object to his mouth level, then show the body move  eastward and down a step or 2  into this same gap ( where the shadow of Lovelady is) then have the body move back up and over to the west wall just above the Carl /Roy /Jones /Lewis black man.

I’d like see if it looks like the black solid image of the body of a man radically shaking back and forth as Mr.Ford posted earlier misrepresenting my proposed move to if Oswald or whether such model movement will demonstrate if my proposed movement of Oswald could be the reason for the extra blob of red and white instead of a flag being unfurled .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 24, 2023, 11:54:58 PM
Here is the requested 2 frame GIF depicting my W2 pose with a Weisberg full frame image. The doorway frame required reprocessing with a camera tilt to match the reference frame. Note that while reviewing my notes I realized I transposed the values for “TorsoRot” for the W1 and W2 positions. I’ve corrected that mistake in this and future forthcoming work. I’m redoing the animations, but  I don’t expect substantive changes. Not sure what to do with the Bobblehead GIF?

(https://i.imgur.com/ODXiSEm.gif)

Many thanks, Mr. Hackerott, your going to this trouble is genuinely appreciated.

Is it not evident from this overlay that 3D Lovelady's posture is simply wrong?

Compare this far less tortured orientation:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0SHdc5r/Wiegman-Lovelady-1967.gif)

To get a perfect alignment, imagine the 1967 photographer moving a little east, and Mr. Lovelady's head following him (without any other movement of his body).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 25, 2023, 12:04:29 AM
There could never be two heads there at the same time, it would have been a dead giveaway. Therefore, a little more creative artistry was in order.
The shadow knockout under the chin/across the neck wasn't done very well, but the white chested extended shirt was.
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/WiegmanAltered.gif)

Mr. Davidson, are you suggesting that W2 ('lower') Lovelady is authentic, but W1 ('upper') Lovelady is a messy merging of 2-into-1?

If so, is this the issue you're getting at?:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLfzs3MC/Wiegman-2nd-head-larger.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 25, 2023, 12:28:25 AM
Now if Someone can insert a body that represents Oswald’s 5’-9” 135 lb body into the gap between Prayer Woman and Lovelady and about a step or 2 up from the ground level and try to simulate the movement that is described by Mr Ford “as flapping”, that would be most helpful.

By all means explore a scenario, Mr. Mason, but I do wish to be clear as to what my claim is:

Mr. Oswald is the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes. He is standing behind the black man. He does not move from this position, and is still there in Wiegman (as PrayerMAN), facing forward just like in Hughes, but now with fake shadow covering his person so as to prevent identification.

I am putting him on the fourth step up throughout the motorcade sequence. Note the brickwork behind the white west column, and its position relative to that fourth step up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMdx1jMQ/bottle-steps-arrows.jpg)

Now look at PrayerMAN in Wiegman, and how close his right elbow is to the back edge of the brickwork. This cannot be PrayerWOMAN back on the landing-----------the distance from elbow to brickwork is just too small.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXymcLzf/Wiegman-faster.gif)

Pres. Kennedy having passed the building, Mr. Oswald is no longer waving the flag-------------his little stunt is done.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 25, 2023, 02:12:33 AM
Pres. Kennedy having passed the building, Mr. Oswald is no longer waving the flag-------------his little stunt is done.

What happened next?

Here's what Chief Jesse Curry was telling press 11/22:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzKFFkNk/Curry-LHO-leaving-1.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/zBh0qbgp/Curry-LHO-leaving-2.jpg)

I believe one Depository woman in particular (Mrs. Jeraldean Reid?), who had seen Mr. Oswald walk off those steps carrying a long paper sack, which he unaccountably discarded by the mailboxes, immediately attracted the attention of Officer Baker:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

As for what happened after that, well, sorting out fact from damage-control fiction gets a little trickier...................................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 25, 2023, 11:30:35 PM
Well!

There will be those in Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps who are still clinging for dear life to the notion that Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is not Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald but Mr. Billy Lovelady, and that he simply moves a little to his left for his appearance in Bell-----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/2SpSYdNN/Reddish-shirt-in-Hughes-50.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FzsJjysB/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

I have a question for these folks. Given your belief that the only thing that should be in front of Mr. Lovelady is the head and/or clothing of the black man standing down by the white west column, how do you explain the fact that Mr. Lovelady in Bell emerges from behind some object or objects colored BLUE and WHITE?

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQmRc4NY/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area.gif)

Here's with extra saturation to clarify that that blue is NOT foliage but something in that doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6G3MWs4/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

And the white cannot be the west column, because we see Mr. Lovelady's head go further west than its eastern edge

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 25, 2023, 11:43:18 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)

Friends, kindly take note that the source image I've been using above for CE142 shows Det. Montgomery angling the paper sack towards the camera. This gives a somewhat diminished sense of the sack's full height.

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5DG3rdP/Paper-bag1.jpg)

Also! Mr. Darnell is filming at an angle to the object being held up by the woman. This angle reduces somewhat the object's apparent width.

Making allowance for these factors, I believe this object is none other than CE142:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zsHpZPN/Paper-bag1a.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/CK9x3w1R/Paper-bag2.jpg)

What do YOU believe it is? What do YOU believe sent that woman behind the street works barrier to the mailboxes? What do YOU believe is keeping the object, which is being held out away from the woman's body, from plunging vertically? What do YOU believe is inducing Officer Baker (as shown in Mr. Sandy Larsen's splendid GIF below) to make a beeline for that woman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 25, 2023, 11:52:05 PM
Compare this far less tortured orientation:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0SHdc5r/Wiegman-Lovelady-1967.gif)

To get a perfect alignment, imagine the 1967 photographer moving a little east, and Mr. Lovelady's head following him (without any other movement of his body).

In the name of the 'Exhaust All Conceivable Options' Principle!:

"Lovelady in Wiegman has a dark jacket hanging down from his right shoulder" (Discuss)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwDSH01Z/Lovelady-Wiegman.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on March 26, 2023, 12:05:42 AM
Many thanks, Mr. Hackerott, your going to this trouble is genuinely appreciated.

Is it not evident from this overlay that 3D Lovelady's posture is simply wrong?

Compare this far less tortured orientation:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0SHdc5r/Wiegman-Lovelady-1967.gif)

To get a perfect alignment, imagine the 1967 photographer moving a little east, and Mr. Lovelady's head following him (without any other movement of his body).
It is not evident that the posture is simply wrong. This is not the first time I was forced to accept such a posture. Back in 2018 I wanted to locate Lovelady’s location in the doorway for the Altgens 6 photo. That was a long time ago but I’m still forced accept that conclusion. I cannot place a standing 5’8” model on either one (too tall) or two steps down (too short) from the lading. See the below slide for my reasoning.
 (https://i.imgur.com/kwPUKbk.png)

I don’t think the 3D posture is outrageous but plausible. Lovelady was near the limits of his ability to see the presidential limousine and was likely trying to track it while also descending the steps for a better view. If it was me, I’d be using the handrail if I was not keeping my eyes on the steps.  I’ve spent so much time on this I decided to give it a project name “EasyGlyde”  (boos..).

And finally, a combo graphic of the latest renderings of the doorway transit along with Altgens’ view and three closeup views of the posture changes. I removed the black hair I had for Lovelady’s model and replaced it with flesh color – to better mimic his balding hairline as well as experimenting  to narrow the head ear-to-ear width for a more natural look.
(https://i.imgur.com/j7HHWxr.gif)

   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 26, 2023, 12:56:12 AM
It is not evident that the posture is simply wrong. This is not the first time I was forced to accept such a posture. Back in 2018 I wanted to locate Lovelady’s location in the doorway for the Altgens 6 photo. That was a long time ago but I’m still forced accept that conclusion. I cannot place a standing 5’8” model on either one (too tall) or two steps down (too short) from the lading. See the below slide for my reasoning.
 (https://i.imgur.com/kwPUKbk.png)

Thanks for this, Mr. Hackerott.

Let's separate out the points.

1. The chief issue with the posture is that 3D Lovelady's leaning forward posture is clearly just different to the story told in Wiegman:

(https://i.imgur.com/ODXiSEm.gif)

2. 3D Ruth Dean seems to be too high. Bringing her down a little will make Option D viable:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ncLmRjyt/Hackerott-W2-heights.jpg)

However..............

3. There is an easier way of establishing Mr. Lovelady's height in W2:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8583wVcq/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-Lovelady-height.jpg)

If it still turns out that putting him on the Option D step renders him too short, then you have already named the simple solution that lies to hand:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLgXz5pZ/Hackerott-W2.jpg)

Option D, with Mr. Lovelady's body facing out from the doorway, but his head turned slightly east, would render a 3D Lovelady whose posture maps nicely onto Wiegman Lovelady's.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 26, 2023, 10:02:12 AM
By all means explore a scenario, Mr. Mason, but I do wish to be clear as to what my claim is:

Mr. Oswald is the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes. He is standing behind the black man. He does not move from this position, and is still there in Wiegman (as PrayerMAN), facing forward just like in Hughes, but now with fake shadow covering his person so as to prevent identification.

I am putting him on the fourth step up throughout the motorcade sequence. Note the brickwork behind the white west column, and its position relative to that fourth step up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMdx1jMQ/bottle-steps-arrows.jpg)

Now look at PrayerMAN in Wiegman, and how close his right elbow is to the back edge of the brickwork. This cannot be PrayerWOMAN back on the landing-----------the distance from elbow to brickwork is just too small.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXymcLzf/Wiegman-faster.gif)

Pres. Kennedy having passed the building, Mr. Oswald is no longer waving the flag-------------his little stunt is done.

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Mr. Oswald is the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes. He is standing behind the black man. He does not move from this position, and is still there in Wiegman (as PrayerMAN),

I thought you'd abandoned the wrong-headed idea that PrayerWoman was Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 26, 2023, 11:10:22 AM
Mr. Oswald is the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes. He is standing behind the black man. He does not move from this position, and is still there in Wiegman (as PrayerMAN),

I thought you'd abandoned the wrong-headed idea that PrayerWoman was Oswald.

Two different people:
1. PrayerMAN in Wiegman, standing on fourth step up = Mr. Oswald
2. PrayerWOMAN in Darnell, standing back on landing = Mrs. Pauline Sanders (NOT Mrs. Sarah Stanton!)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 26, 2023, 04:02:31 PM
Mr. Oswald is the man in the reddish shirt in Hughes. He is standing behind the black man. He does not move from this position,

Friends, look at this scene in Hughes. Reddish Shirt Man is standing there behind the black man by the white west column. Then there is a dark gap of emptiness, and we see Ms. Madie Reese. The only activity in the doorway is the (apparent) taking of a drink by Reddish Shirt Man. Note the limousine turning onto Elm Street: by the end of the clip, it is already in front of the Depository: and here is where young Ms. Tina Towner is:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZq2ZV6/Lovelady-Hughes-longer.gif)[(https://i.postimg.cc/tTkCmKqG/Tina-Towner.jpg)

Now look at this scene in Towner. Note the position of the limousine. We are but instants on from the end of the Hughes clip. Yet just look at the difference in the doorway! Somebody has suddenly, as if out of nowhere, started waving something:

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5r5dGDB/Towner-waving.gif)

The way it flaps, it seems to be held on its right (i.e. left as we look; i.e. west) side. Who in the Hughes clip, if not Reddish Shirt Man, can possibly be waving it?

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2N821H6/Towner-flag-movement.gif)

Now look at this sync-up which Mr. Davidson has made of Bell with these same moments in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

Note the position of the limousine in Bell.

Now look at these ever-so-slightly-later frames in Bell. They show Mr. Lovelady coming into view. Note the position of the limousine----------half its own length on from where the previous Towner/Bell clip left it. Just how much time do you think it took the limousine to cover half its own length? We are talking a very tiny window of time

(https://i.postimg.cc/RFVXBmTS/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

And here's a closer look at what this ever-so-slightly-later Bell clip shows of Mr. Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtLqJy2x/Bell-lovelady-tshirt-davidson.gif)

Do you seriously believe that Mr. Lovelady has just been energetically waving the object in the doorway? And that he has has stopped waving it just as suddenly as he started?

If you don't believe that, then who the heck do you think COULD be responsible for waving the object, if not the individual we have been calling Reddish Shirt Man?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 27, 2023, 01:04:52 AM
Where in the conspirators added shadow area of Lovelady was the body or at least the head of Oswald located?

If Hughes , Bell and Towner films are capturing Oswald very close to the west wall, then I don’t see how Oswald would not still be close to that west wall in Weigman film  UNLESS, Oswald DID move eastward such that his new position in Weigman would be close enough to Loveladys right side body to be the reason for conspirators to add the shadow to Lovelady.



If Weigman film is preceding Hughes film in recording the front steps then Oswald would have been nearer to Lovelady and in the sunlight ( thus requiring the shadow added ri Lovelady to  hide Oswald) and then after Weigman film pans away, Oswald would have move westward to be closer to the west wall so as to be where red shirt man in Hughes film is, as well as be captured in the Altgens 6 photo (Cronkite anomaly version).

How can we even be sure about the Cronkite version of Altgens photo, since that recorded image is at least 3 times removed from the reality that the human eye of a person would see if they had been present in Dealey plaza.

It’s in this order of perception:

1: Human eye of a person viewing the scene in Dealey plaza before it was recorded by Altgens camera
2. Image recorded and translated by Altgens camera.
3. Image of Altgens photo being zoomed in on by the TV camera lens of Cronkite studio.
4. Video adaptation of that Cronkite recorded film to the pixel screen of computer and or smart phone screen.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 27, 2023, 01:16:53 AM
Where in the conspirators added shadow area of Lovelady was the body or at least the head of Oswald located?

As I've explained over and over again, Mr. Mason, the added shadow area of Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman does NOT contain Mr. Oswald, who is over in the PrayerMAN spot

Quote
If Weigman film is preceding Hughes film in recording the front steps

Huh?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 27, 2023, 06:36:26 PM
Can anyone figure out what this is?

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvWtbxhx/Bell-object.gif)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 27, 2023, 08:02:29 PM
Well, I cannot accept the premise
 that Prayer figure in Weigman film could be Oswald and then the SAME figure as seen in Darnell film is a woman.

What are the visual details that clearly distinguish that the PM figure in Weigman film  can NOT plausibly be the same PM figure in Darnell film?

Is there consideration given to the fact that when Weigmans film is recording PM that the perspective is different (due to angle and location of  Weigmans car, than the perspective from Darnell’s camera recording PM later?


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 27, 2023, 10:54:07 PM
Well, I cannot accept the premise
 that Prayer figure in Weigman film could be Oswald and then the SAME figure as seen in Darnell film is a woman.

What are the visual details that clearly distinguish that the PM figure in Weigman film  can NOT plausibly be the same PM figure in Darnell film?

Is there consideration given to the fact that when Weigmans film is recording PM that the perspective is different (due to angle and location of  Weigmans car, than the perspective from Darnell’s camera recording PM later?

Look at height of raised right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YS7m2SVH/Hughes-LHO-hand-raised.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TYSVxffd/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0001.jpg)

----------Same person, same spot, same orientation of body (facing south, not turned southeast like PrayerWOMAN)
----------BUT! Different camera angles
----------AND! Every photo-trickery effort made to make it seem that PrayerMAN in Wiegman = PrayerWOMAN in Darnell

Mr. Oswald didn't change location from Hughes through to Wiegman

He has left the steps by the time of Darnell

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 27, 2023, 11:14:09 PM
Two different people:
1. PrayerMAN in Wiegman, standing on fourth step up = Mr. Oswald
2. PrayerWOMAN in Darnell, standing back on landing = Mrs. Pauline Sanders (NOT Mrs. Sarah Stanton!)

 :D :D :D :D

Just when I think you can't get any more bananas....
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 27, 2023, 11:58:51 PM
:D :D :D :D

Just when I think you can't get any more bananas....

This from the guy who thinks

a) PrayerWOMAN is an obese lady with white hair

b) this is Mr. Billy Lovelady's shoulder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLpZZ9Z2/Wiegman-Lovelady-shoulder.gif)

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 28, 2023, 01:35:25 AM
Interesting detail in the final frame:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rhcq4sYq/Bell-tshirt-larger-last-frame.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kg7RXCqC/Bell-tshirt-reddish-spot-marked.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 28, 2023, 02:15:17 AM
Look at height of raised right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YS7m2SVH/Hughes-LHO-hand-raised.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TYSVxffd/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0001.jpg)

----------Same person, same spot, same orientation of body (facing south, not turned southeast like PrayerWOMAN)
----------BUT! Different camera angles
----------AND! Every photo-trickery effort made to make it seem that PrayerMAN in Wiegman = PrayerWOMAN in Darnell

Look at the height of Lovelady's elbow in the Hughes film and note, it's the same level as his head.
Now look at PW's and note it is down by the side of her body.
Completely different postures explaining why the elbows can seem an equivalent height.
Also note in the Hughes clip, it appears Lovelady's shirt is almost hanging off his left shoulder.
Now look at the Weigman pic below that and note that this, too. shows his shirt almost hanging off his left shoulder.
Just like this picture does:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLpZZ9Z2/Wiegman-Lovelady-shoulder.gif)

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Quote
Mr. Oswald didn't change location from Hughes through to Wiegman

The Domino Room.  ;)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 28, 2023, 10:31:46 AM
Look at the height of Lovelady's elbow in the Hughes film and note, it's the same level as his head.

Sure, if you misinterpret the film

Quote
Now look at PW's and note it is down by the side of her body.
Completely different postures explaining why the elbows can seem an equivalent height.
Also note in the Hughes clip, it appears Lovelady's shirt is almost hanging off his left shoulder.
Now look at the Weigman pic below that and note that this, too. shows his shirt almost hanging off his left shoulder.
Just like this picture does:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLpZZ9Z2/Wiegman-Lovelady-shoulder.gif)

'his shirt almost hanging off his left shoulder', lol

(https://i.postimg.cc/05wvxLfD/Altgens-Groden-crop.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on March 28, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
Sure, if you misinterpret the film

No misinterpretation Alan. It's there in the photographic/film evidence:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YS7m2SVH/Hughes-LHO-hand-raised.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TYSVxffd/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0001.jpg)

In the Hughes film Lovelady raises his elbow up to around head height.
In the Weigman still, Prayerwoman has arm elbow down by her side.
Two completely different body positions.
This explains how both elbows can be said to be around the same height.
But you know all this already. It's as plain as day to see.
You are being deliberately misleading.
Why?
You think by simply saying that I've misrepresented the photo/film evidence is enough.
But how have I misinterpreted it. Where do you think I've gone wrong with my interpretation?

Quote
'his shirt almost hanging off his left shoulder', lol

(https://i.postimg.cc/05wvxLfD/Altgens-Groden-crop.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Look at the Hughes clip above and, in particular, the Weigman still. The shirt is hanging off his left shoulder. Showing the Altgens clip doesn't make any difference to the clip/still that has been posted.

Just to get back to your phenomenal assertion that Prayerwoman becomes Prayerman.

(https://i.imgur.com/qHIlwtM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)

Just look at how different they are.
Just look at all the differences.  ;D
Look at how different the arm positions are.
Look at how bonkers you are.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 28, 2023, 12:19:25 PM
In the Hughes film Lovelady raises his elbow up to around head height.

~Grin~

You started out with "Look at the height of Lovelady's elbow in the Hughes film and note, it's the same level as his head."

Now you've downgraded this to "around head height".

By your next post, you'll be quietly lowering the elbow yet further---------------or suddenly losing interest in it altogether.

You realize that you've goofed (YET again), and (true to form) you're scrambling to save face!

Quote
Look at the Hughes clip above and, in particular, the Weigman still. The shirt is hanging off his left shoulder.

Simply amazing how it goes from NOT 'hanging off his left shoulder' to 'hanging off his left shoulder' to NOT 'hanging off his left shoulder'

(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZq2ZV6/Lovelady-Hughes-longer.gif)

You're making a dreadful fool of yourself!  Thumb1:

Quote
Showing the Altgens clip doesn't make any difference to the clip/still that has been posted.

Really? You're the one who assured us that Wiegman is showing Mr. Lovelady with the same body position as Altgens. Here's the line where you lost all contact with reality: "If Lovelady's body is turned facing Weigman side-on, as Altgens 6 seems to suggest, when he turns his head to the left he is looking towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder."

Ok then, genius. Explain how the appearance of Mr. Lovelady's shirt/tshirt in these two images can be reconciled, i.e. how we can go from what Altgens shows to what you're seeing as his shirt 'hanging off his left shoulder' (even typing these last words makes me chuckle.............)

(https://i.postimg.cc/59kgMjsX/Altgens-Groden-small.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/TYSVxffd/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif-frame-0001.jpg)

Quote
Just to get back to your phenomenal assertion that Prayerwoman becomes Prayerman.

(https://i.imgur.com/qHIlwtM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)

Just look at how different they are.
Just look at all the differences.  ;D
Look at how different the arm positions are.

Well, exactly------------look at the respective left arms, and what they tell us about respective locations/orientations.

And then, when you've done crying about that, look at PrayerWOMAN's head peeking out just behind PrayerMAN's head in Wiegman

While you're doing all this, the rest of us can be having a good laugh at the thought, "Mr. Dan O'Meara thinks that person on the west side of the landing is an obese woman with white hair":

(https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/vBcBx5Kn/Sarah-Stanton-crop.jpg)

Loony toons!

  :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 28, 2023, 02:41:54 PM
Rethink Time For Ford?

Is this man waving a small flag?

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3DqBD5c/Bell-man-waving-flag-marked.gif)

Cf Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxF3H1BX/Towner-man-not-waving.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 28, 2023, 05:49:07 PM
Rethink Time For Ford?

Is this man waving a small flag?

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3DqBD5c/Bell-man-waving-flag-marked.gif)

And is this then the same man stretching his right arm out to wave away the limousine?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwpRJ2NC/Bell-object.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 29, 2023, 01:14:16 PM
Well!

Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps have the following story to tell:

1. Here's Mr. Lovelady in the Hughes film, standing way over west, behind the black man who is by the white west column---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZq2ZV6/Lovelady-Hughes-longer.gif)

2. As the limousine passes the building, Mr. Lovelady moves east and shows up like this in Bell---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/RFVXBmTS/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

However!

Subtract from the Bell clip above the tiny amount of time it takes for the limousine to cover half its own length, and we get this in Towner-----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/rmHtyq2V/Towner-slow-reese-lho-lovelady.gif)

Red Arrow: Ms. Madie Reese
Yellow Arrow: Somebody exactly where Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes was standing just an instant ago
Blue Arrow: A. N. Other, standing a little west of Ms. Reese and a little east of Reddish Shirt Man

'Don't be silly!' cries today's Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps spokesman, 'A.N.Other is just Lovelady (aka Reddish Shirt Man), he has stepped to his right. The person marked by the Yellow Arrow is the person behind him (PrayerWOMAN or Shelley), who has come down off the landing to take up the spot just vacated by Lovelady.'

Uh............ nope.

The reflection of the person behind Reddish Shirt Man in the glass door in Hughes shows that s/he is wearing BLUE:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4LBKHWh/Hughes-Longer-Prayer-WOMAN.gif)

Whereas Towner shows that the person standing behind the black man is showing up REDDISH:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gjF4cChZ/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)

Ergo! The person standing behind the black man in Towner must be the same person as the person standing behind the black man in Hughes just an instant earlier, i.e Reddish Shirt Man, i.e. Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

And A.N.Other, the person in Towner standing about midway between Reddish Shirt Man and Ms. Reese, must be Mr. Billy Lovelady, who is just half a limousine's length away from shifting back to his left and returning to normal standing posture at a spot east enough to place his right shoulder right behind Ms. Reese's elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZbn8QNy/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

The only outstanding mystery here is what is the white & blue (with a hint of red down below in the last frame of the clip?) from behind which Mr. Lovelady comes into view?

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdm7NH2s/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/kg7RXCqC/Bell-tshirt-reddish-spot-marked.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 29, 2023, 01:46:34 PM
While you're doing all this, the rest of us can be having a good laugh at the thought, "Mr. Dan O'Meara thinks that person on the west side of the landing is an obese woman with white hair":

(https://i.imgur.com/afcAlmE.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/vBcBx5Kn/Sarah-Stanton-crop.jpg)

Loony toons!

  :D

To add to the fun, someone has found-----------in some Dan Owens aftermath footage-----------a lady standing in the doorway who looks extremely like Ms. Stanton:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXgznwXG/Stanton-Dan-Owens-film.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/8cx4cs0w/Stanton-Dan-Owens-film-2.jpg)

Non-lunatics will enjoy a snicker as they compare her with PrayerWOMAN------------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qdm6kN9N/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

----------------------and then look for a non-absurd candidate:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yfY3JF1/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg)

The reflection in the glass in Hughes establishes that Ms. Pauline Sanders was wearing blue that day

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 29, 2023, 05:04:55 PM
Up to just a few weeks ago, it was assumed that Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is shielding his eyes.

He's not-----------------he's taking a drink from a bottle:

(https://i.postimg.cc/6q0Rk2MC/LHO-Hughes-bottle.gif)

And this aftermath photograph shows certain lunchtime items left right beside where he stood:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKgKWZgB/bottle-steps-marked-smaller.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMdXmBTR/bottle-steps-large-3-items.jpg)

I believe these items are-----------------------

1. White wrapping paper (used for cheese sandwiches)
2. Coca Cola bottle
3. Apple core stuck into mouth of bottle

-----------------------and that they were left there by Mr. Oswald

(https://i.postimg.cc/QN21zDS6/Fritz-notes-cheese-apple.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/m23z6HPD/Fritz-notes-cheese-apple2.jpg)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 30, 2023, 12:01:58 AM
Up to just a few weeks ago, it was assumed that Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is shielding his eyes.

He's not-----------------he's taking a drink from a bottle:

(https://i.postimg.cc/6q0Rk2MC/LHO-Hughes-bottle.gif)

Apropos!

Let's imagine that there were a way, logistically, of making the Mr. Lovelady who appears in Bell/Wiegman/Altgens be Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes. (There isn't such a way, but let's forget that for a moment).

OK. So we would have two candidates for Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes---------------------------

Candidate A: Mr. Billy Lovelady
Candidate B: A different male, who is wearing a reddish shirt over a white tshirt

Do any of the known images of Mr. Lovelady (in Bell, in Wiegman, in Altgens) support the notion that he is holding a bottle in his right hand, as Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is doing?
Not at all.

Do the images of PrayerPerson in Wiegman support the notion that they are holding a bottle in their right hand, as Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes is doing?
Yes.

(https://i.imgur.com/qHIlwtM.gif)

Is it possible that Mr. Lovelady just left his Coke down in the very few seconds separating the last Hughes frame from the first Bell frame in which he appears? And that somebody came forward to vacate the spot just left by him, and that this somebody just happened to have something in their right hand which they brought to their mouth? Sure, all of that is.................... possible. But the commonalities between PrayerMAN in Wiegman and Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes (location; orientation of body; holding something in right hand that is brought to the mouth) make the conclusion that Reddish Shirt Man is PrayerMAN in Wiegman the commonsense conclusion.

But, of course! Reddish Shirt Man is not covered in shadow, whereas PrayerMAN in Wiegman is.

Given, however, the bizarre shadow down Mr. Lovelady's right side in that same film (Wiegman), it is no stretch whatsoever to say that PrayerMAN in Wiegman is the same person standing in the same spot as Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes----------------only with a fake shadow added over their person too.

Does anyone whose wits have not been entirely befuddled by Warren Gullibility seriously believe that the 'investigating' authorities would have left alone a clear, facially-identifiable image of Mr. Oswald standing in the doorway?

(Note: It may even be that the reason a fake shadow was added to Mr. Lovelady's right arm was to hide the very fact that he wasn't holding anything-----------telltale discontinuity with Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes, whom they wanted folks to believe was Mr. Lovelady.)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 30, 2023, 12:33:42 AM
Apropos!

Let's imagine that there were a way, logistically, of making the Mr. Lovelady who appears in Bell/Wiegman/Altgens be Reddish Shirt Man in Hughes. (There isn't such a way, but let's forget that for a moment).

Now let's re-remember it!

Green arrow: the object being waved (whatever/wherever it is!)
Yellow arrow: Reddish Shirt Man, in the same place as we saw him just an instant ago in Hughes

(https://i.postimg.cc/gkqv7tgJ/Towner-Unger-marked.jpg)

You cannot--------------in the time it takes for the limousine to travel half its own length---------------find a real-world way to make Reddish Shirt Man into this guy we see in Bell returning from a rightwards lean to a normal erect posture at a spot where the left side of his body is at least as far east as Ms. Reese's right elbow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyVrCncJ/Bell-tshirt-Lovelady.gif)

No way, no how

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 31, 2023, 01:28:43 AM
You cannot--------------in the time it takes for the limousine to travel half its own length---------------

Well! It's even worse than that...............

The synced Towner/Bell clip ends with the frame below. Note where the limousine flag is; note that Reddish Shirt Man has NOT moved from his position behind the black man by the white west column:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SN3n64Mc/Bell-Towner-frame-0008-marked.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/gjF4cChZ/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)

I've viewed the Bell footage on The Lost Tapes, and guess what? It shows that these Bell frames---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkPYsktZ/Davidson-Lovelady-in-Bell.gif)

-----------------do NOT in fact offer the first glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's red shirt. That comes even earlier. Note where the front of the limousine is in these two frames from The Lost Tapes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9v9GyCd/Bell-Lost-Tapes1-marked.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RV5Fhd5T/Bell-Lost-Tapes2-marked.jpg)

We are talking a fraction of a second for Reddish Shirt Man to move over to the Lovelady position. Here's the distance the limousine covers in that time:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tBcPBkf/Bell-Lost-Tapes1-distance.jpg)

But it's even worse than THAT. The fraction of a second required for the limousine to travel those few feet is shortened FURTHER when we watch the full, digitally restored Towner doorway sequence from The Lost Bullet, as posted by the excellent Mr. Robin Unger over at the Education Forum. It goes several frames further on than the synced Towner/Bell clip posted above. And the figure (a.k.a. Reddish Shirt Man) standing behind the black man by the white west column (and partially obscured by the flapping object) has not budged. He can still be seen in the selfsame position at the end of the sequence:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5ypkhpwM/Towner-Unger-frame.jpg)

Not even a super-high-speed westwards kangaroo hop across the fourth step could bring Reddish Shirt Man over to the Lovelady spot in time.

Mr. Lovelady simply cannot be Reddish Shirt Man.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 31, 2023, 01:38:10 AM
Friends, in the interests of linguistic felicity, I move that this man in the doorway lose the cumbersome title 'Reddish Shirt Man' and instead be referred to henceforward as Coca-Cola Man

(https://i.postimg.cc/6q0Rk2MC/LHO-Hughes-bottle.gif)

Alternatively, of course, we could just call him by his real name: Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on March 31, 2023, 03:18:03 AM
So if Oswald / Red shirt Man in Hughes film did NOT move from the west wall  then the reddish blob to the east and down in front of  steps which is the flapping/ moving anomaly ( in Towner film)  is too far from Oswald/Cokeman, to be a flag being unfurled (imo).

Then there is still the problem where Oswald is in Wiegman film.

If Oswald did not move after Hughes film, or in Towner film, then he cannot be prayerwoman (PW) nor close enough to Lovelady to be the reason for shadow anomaly of Lovelady in Weigman film.

Also, since there are 2 different type cameras capturing PW from  different perspectives distances, and time, there is to be expected some variation in measuring distance in each film frame of PW body/ elbow relative to wall/ column etc.

If the Babuska lady (Beverly Oliver)  film disappeared entirely ( allegedly confiscated) then it’s not that implausible to suggest that maybe Towner film was altered in some way also, just like Weigman and Altgens.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on March 31, 2023, 12:32:42 PM
So if Oswald / Red shirt Man in Hughes film did NOT move from the west wall  then the reddish blob to the east and down in front of  steps which is the flapping/ moving anomaly ( in Towner film)  is too far from Oswald/Cokeman, to be a flag being unfurled (imo).

Then there is still the problem where Oswald is in Wiegman film.

If Oswald did not move after Hughes film, or in Towner film, then he cannot be prayerwoman (PW) nor close enough to Lovelady to be the reason for shadow anomaly of Lovelady in Weigman film.

I've already addressed these points, Mr. Mason

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 01, 2023, 02:08:05 PM
Not even a super-high-speed westwards kangaroo hop across the fourth step could bring Reddish Shirt Man over to the Lovelady spot in time.

Mr. Lovelady simply cannot be Reddish Shirt Man.

The FULL Bell doorway footage is, more even than I had realized, an utter calamity for the eccentric chapter of Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps known as Team Make Coca-Cola Man into Lovelady:

(https://i.postimg.cc/prPZQP5k/Bell-doorway-full.gif)

Look how early we get our VERY first glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's shirt. Note where Mrs. Kennedy is at this time:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZ0s7mG9/Bell-Lovelady-early.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

At this VERY SAME time, Coca-Cola Man is STILL just where he was in Hughes: over behind the black man who is standing by the white west column:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gjF4cChZ/Towner-red-shirt-crop.jpg)

We are no longer talking of a tiny window of time in which Coca-Cola Man can move over and be the Mr. Lovelady we see in Bell. No, we are talking ZERO TIME, for we are talking simultaneity. Mr. Lovelady and Coca-Cola Man are, at this given moment, in two different places.

Mr. Lovelady is not visible in Hughes because he is standing not far from the center railing, and is thus blocked from Hughes' view by young Ms. Toni Glover.
When the foliage clears in Bell, we see him still standing there, leaning over to his right and then returning to normal standing posture.

There is simply no logistical way to salvage the claim that Coca-Cola Man is Mr. Lovelady

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 02, 2023, 01:39:51 PM
Rethink Time For Ford?

Is this man waving a small flag?

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3DqBD5c/Bell-man-waving-flag-marked.gif)

It would be nice to explain the waving object in Towner which appears to be in the doorway as in fact being something waved by this man, or by the woman in black behind him:

(https://i.postimg.cc/q79tcRKd/Bell-doorway-full-man-crop.gif)

But I honestly have serious doubts. While a noticeable object does appear to flutter over/behind the man's head in the later frames here, during those frames which sync up with Towner the noticeable object appears to our view too far right (east) to account for what Towner is showing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

Furthermore, the WHITE and BLUE we see behind the foliage but in front of Mr. Lovelady in Bell remain weird and unaccounted for:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdm7NH2s/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

I still think this may be a flag of some description being waved by Coca-Cola Man (a.k.a. Mr. Oswald)

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 02, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
I also continue to believe that

A) this is CE142 (the long paper sack Mr. Oswald will be falsely accused of having used to bring a rifle with him to work this morning), and that Mr. Oswald has just dumped it by the two mailboxes

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)

B) Officer Marrion L. Baker is racing over to the lady who is holding it up

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

Perhaps someone has a better suggestion as to what she's holding, and why the motorcycle officer's path is heading straight her way?

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Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 04, 2023, 02:16:12 AM
There is  “something”  in Towner film causing JFK to turn his head 90 degrees looking at the front entrance area.

Since JFK had  to take drugs and wear  a back brace, because  of back pain caused by  a rare peculiar  spinal deformity , to turn his head that sharply suggests that the “something” was more than just the clapping hands of nearby people.

Something like a fabric banner sign with a provocative word like “Traitor” unfurled and held open by the use of 2 curtain rods , and moved back and forth couldsurely have came get JFK s attention

The paper bag , banner and rods then discarded near the traffic barrier where the woman then picked  up the bag and was signaling to Baker?

Seems quite a
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 05, 2023, 12:15:40 AM
Fantastic improbable scenario.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 11, 2023, 01:21:18 PM
There is  “something”  in Towner film causing JFK to turn his head 90 degrees looking at the front entrance area.

It may be a little more complicated than something catching his attention...

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)

Ask yourself: what might the weirdly 'missing' frames just before this have shown?

(https://i.ibb.co/d59CmRJ/Towner-Splice.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nL2dPF8)

What if they showed something curious in Pres. Kennedy's behavior-------------something that was NOT a reaction but something else entirely.................?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 21, 2023, 01:29:24 AM
So… Where do we go from here Mr.Ford? :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 24, 2023, 12:07:56 AM
So… Where do we go from here Mr.Ford? :)

Well, Mr. Mason,

IF the flapping object is indeed in the doorway

and

IF Pres. Kennedy is indeed taking note of it,

then............ we may be led to conclude that Mr. Oswald (a.k.a. Coca-Cola Man) has been duped into playing a very specific role here that gives the awful clue as to how the Dealey Plaza horror has been put together

(Hints: Rothermel + Evica)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 25, 2023, 02:15:03 AM
Well, Mr. Mason,

IF the flapping object is indeed in the doorway

And (let us remind ourselves) this conclusion is troublingly hard to avoid.............................

1. This man-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3DqBD5c/Bell-man-waving-flag-marked.gif)

-------------- appears NOT to be holding anything that could be the object we see flapping in Towner. Look at what's (not) there when he extends his right arm after the limousine:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwpRJ2NC/Bell-object.gif)

2. The woman behind him DOES appear to be holding something that is flapping in the wind, but it is clearly TOO FAR EAST to be the object we see flapping in Towner in the synced frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

And! There appears to be nothing else in the real prospect between the man in the street and the doorway that could possibly be the flapping object.

Result: The flapping object does indeed appear to be in the doorway.

Given who Coca-Cola Man is (Mr. Oswald), this circumstance suggests large implications for what is really going on.

Bear in mind! Pres. Kennedy (if he is indeed looking at the flag in the doorway) can hardly be SEEING DETAIL on it. No, he can be doing no more than noting the fact that it is waving.............

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)

He has already seen lots of flags and signs along the parade route. Is there something about this flag that makes it of special interest to him?

A truly ghastly thought occurs, one that sends us back to the Rothermel memo................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on April 25, 2023, 02:27:43 AM
Cf (perhaps):

Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 29, 2023, 03:41:34 AM
And upside down US flag?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2023, 11:48:32 PM
And upside down US flag?

I'm suggesting a scenario wherein what makes this flag of special interest to Pres. Kennedy is not anything that may be on it, but the simple fact that it IS being waved

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 06, 2023, 03:09:50 AM
At this point, there seems to be only 4 viable reasons to consider the theory that Oswald was on the TSBD steps at the time of the shots.

1. The Hosty notes of one interrogation session of Oswald when FBI agent Hosty was present, notes which were not  presented to the WC, nor to the HSCA or the AARB. FBI agent Hosty chose apparently to wait some 50 + years later to reveal the notes.

2. Oswald’s description of  seeing Norman and Jarman while Oswald was in the Domino room, while N/J conversely never saw Oswald while they were in the Domino room 12:00-12:10.

3. The horizontal length of  blur of red that is seen at the front entrance steps of the TSBD in a couple of GIF versions of Towner film that appears to be of such extended length that it  is improbable to be just single persons red shirt.

4. The “Red Shirt Man” in the GiF of Hughes film (thought to be Billy Lovelady)  lifting up what in all probability is a bottle of coke to his mouth. His shirt appears more of a solid reddish brown rather than   a red and black checker board square pattern shirt as Lovelady was wearing.

To discount no.1 , requires believing that FBI agent Hosty fabricated the notes 50 years later and/or that Oswald completely lied about going outside , which theoretically could easily have be refuted. Therefore, either Oswald was an idiot or Oswald really went outside and thought that some employee would verify seeing him on the front steps.

To discount no. 2, requires believing that Oswald randomly chose 2 employees and told Will Fritz he ate lunch with them, which could only be from 12:00 to 12:15 , which provides NO alibi for Oswald at 12:30. So why would Oswald ID Norman and Jarman? Either Oswald was an idiot OR Oswald saw N&J at about 12:25 as they were returning via the back loading dock door and as they passed by the Domino room. This sighting would  be a logical reason for Oswald to ID the men as  he more likely would have considered  this to  be a potential alibi. Oswald saw N&J but they did not see him, because they probably were  facing towards the direction of the freight elevators as they entered the rear loading dock door.

To discount no. 3, the horizontal line of red that extends beyond the width of just one persons shirt, must be either motion blur from the camera or there’s a 2nd person with red shirt to the right side who is not accounted for.

To discount no.4, the Red shirt man (RSM) must be Lovelady who although having bought his coke BEFORE 12:00 , nevertheless had not consumed all of it 30 minutes later and he was taking another drink in the Hughes film GIF. The reddish brown solid tone must be the Hughes camera film or GIF version of video  , meshing together red and black squares of Loveladys shirt.

Note to no.4: Oswald most likely did not buy his coke until 12:15- 12:17 which would be when he was seen by Carolyn Arnold. Therefore, the probability is greater for Oswald having some% of coke left in a bottle only 15 minutes later, and to be RSM than Lovelady with a 30 minute old coke bottle.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2023, 08:48:09 PM
Cf (perhaps):

Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back.


Cf (perhaps):

Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking to the public.
Mr. McCLOY. Saluting?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. With which arm?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 07, 2023, 12:03:09 AM
IF that flapping object is indeed a flag being waved by Mr. Oswald in the doorway,
and
IF Pres. Kennedy is indeed taking special note of it as he passes the doorway,

THEN the following shocking scenario may suggest itself:

---------A false-flag provocation in Dealey Plaza, to be blamed on Pres. Castro, involving shots fired into the air from the sixth floor of the Depository
---------Pres. Kennedy (and his brother, the Attorney General) fully in the loop (and cognizant of a DOUBLE political advantage: anti-Castro pretext + re-election campaign benefit)
---------'One of our men' (= sheepdipped asset Mr. Oswald) to be in place to give Pres. Kennedy a pre-agreed signal (when he turns onto Elm St.) that all is in place, awaiting his final greenlight
---------Pres. Kennedy to give a pre-agreed signal, for the benefit of whoever is up on the sixth floor, that he is still okay with this going ahead
---------Pres. Kennedy, after giving the innocuous-looking signal (raised hand brushing hair), braces himself for the sound of gunfire.......... poor man has no idea he has actually been made a target

Thus, two men (Mr. Oswald, Pres. Kennedy) giving signals, each profoundly (and tragically) misled as to what is really going on-------------i.e. unaware that the false-flag operation has been fatally infiltrated by people with murderous intentions against Pres. Kennedy

Mr. Oswald is stunned to learn shortly afterwards that the shots had a human target......... he understands immediately that he has been set up (though NOT as the actual gunman [absurdest of absurd ideas!]). In custody, he loyally keeps schtum as to his true role in things

No Kennedy family member will ever publicly question the findings of the Warren Commission: they know that the truth, were it to come out, would tarnish the memory of Pres. Kennedy, who fell victim to a false flag operation that he okayed but that was criminally hijacked

Attorney General Robert Kennedy left racked with intensest guilt and impotent anger.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on May 19, 2023, 11:04:42 PM
Look closely, friends, and you will see that the driver, Mr. William Greer, appears not to be looking at the road ahead:

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

Cf (perhaps) this intriguing piece of testimony:

Mr. TRULY. [...] And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Does Towner explain this odd little circumstance by showing Mr. Greer taking his eye off the road to look in the lower mirror? i.e. this mirror here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRvYrDG8/Altgens7-Ungercrop-mirror.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz641b6K/Altgens5-Unger-marked.jpg)

More to the point, is this lower mirror bespokely positioned so as to afford Mr. Greer a view at all times of his extremely VIP passenger?

I.e.: Is Mr. Greer taking his eye off the road momentarily to watch for something in Pres. Kennedy's behavior?

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 22, 2023, 03:20:16 AM
That red shirt man in the foreground at the base of the steps of TSBD entrance and just left of center handrail, who appears to have his right hand up, may possibly be  Billy Lovelady!

I propose this because there is a noticeable absence of a red shirt in the area to the immediate left of white shirt person (Sarah Stanton) with hand upraised to shield her face from sun which is what that white area is in this GIF of Towner film (center of TSBD entrance).

Oswald is still there at the west side wall of TSBD entrance just above and behind Carl Jones , and may be lifting an object that’s probably a bottle just as he is doing in the Hughes film.

In Hughes film,  Billy Lovelady was either further up on the steps and next to Sarah Stanton and in shadow so he is not visible in Hughes, OR he has already moved down to the base of the steps.

Is it possible that Lovelady can be up in shadow in the Hughes film, then move down to the base of the steps to be the red shirt man who seems to have his arm raised HIGH and waving at JFK in thus Towner film GIF?

If this man at the base of the steps is  not Lovelady and he is not Oswald then there must be 3 Persons with similar red brown shirts!



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 04, 2023, 12:36:47 AM
Is it possible that Lovelady can be up in shadow in the Hughes film, then move down to the base of the steps to be the red shirt man who seems to have his arm raised HIGH and waving at JFK in thus Towner film GIF?

Not enough time between end of Hughes and start of Towner for that, Mr. Mason.

Hmmm... I think this is Ms Madie Reese:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ7D00J1/Towner-Reese.gif)

However the reddish/pinkish color below where I've marked is hard to reconcile with what shows up in Hughes & Bell as her WHITE coat.....................

Also, Bell rules out anyone standing just in front of her.

Unless............ there is a person in red (mostly covered by foliage in Bell) further out on the sidewalk?

(https://i.postimg.cc/3RCsv1JP/Bell-full-saturated-RED.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/prPZQP5k/Bell-doorway-full.gif)

If so, then they're gone by the time of Wiegman...........

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 04, 2023, 12:42:22 AM
It may be a little more complicated than something catching his attention...

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)

Ask yourself: what might the weirdly 'missing' frames just before this have shown?

(https://i.ibb.co/d59CmRJ/Towner-Splice.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nL2dPF8)

What if they showed something curious in Pres. Kennedy's behavior-------------something that was NOT a reaction but something else entirely.................?

 Thumb1:

If Pres. Kennedy indeed made some giveaway movement (signaling interest in the doorway) in these cut frames in Towner, then that would also of course explain the missing turn onto Elm in Zapruder

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 05, 2023, 01:25:57 PM

Unless............ there is a person in red (mostly covered by foliage in Bell) further out on the sidewalk?

(https://i.postimg.cc/3RCsv1JP/Bell-full-saturated-RED.jpg)


Honestly, though, this just seems to be Ms. Ruth Dean's skirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/XvLvhQBh/Wiegman-Ruth-Dean-skirt.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/yY2ngTdw/Bell-full-saturated-RED-crop.jpg)

Could Ms. Madie Reese's coat be showing up pinkish in Towner because it actually is a faint shade of pink (which faint shade gets lost in Hughes & Bell due to much greater distance from camera)??

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

Darn, I wish this aftermath photo of Ms. Reese & Ms. Dean were in color!

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6xBd8Gt/Ruth-Dean-aftermath.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 05, 2023, 01:36:41 PM
Could Ms. Madie Reese's coat be showing up pinkish in Towner because it actually is a faint shade of pink (which faint shade gets lost in Hughes & Bell due to much greater distance from camera)??

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

Here's Ms. Reese in Bell with enhanced saturation & contrast:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf4Dbrg0/Reese-in-Bell-saturation-contrast.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 06, 2023, 03:40:03 AM
Other than that, the only remaining possibility would seem to be that this in Bell------

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4J3XJnn/Bell-full-saturated-frame-0045-legs.jpg)

-------is a portion of this in Towner-------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0Qs1T2X/Towner-LOST-BULLET-2-Reese.jpg)

--------rather than what I've always assumed it to be, namely the legs of a woman standing on the east side of the doorway.

Is this indeed Ms. Madie Reese in the doorway or could it be a person standing out in front on the sidewalk?:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0Qs1T2X/Towner-LOST-BULLET-2-Reese.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

If the latter, then they're nowhere to be seen a few seconds later in Wiegman.................

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjtgNj8F/Wiegman-slow.gif)

So in all likelihood it's just Ms. Reese, yes?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 06, 2023, 04:07:02 AM
Not unrelated question!

ONE object being waved or TWO?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mr1d7hwL/Towner-full-waving.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 06, 2023, 04:44:54 AM
Is this indeed Ms. Madie Reese in the doorway or could it be a person standing out in front on the sidewalk?:

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

If the latter, then they're nowhere to be seen a few seconds later in Wiegman.................

Then again..........

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jQpL9cq/Wiegman-background.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0J8BkSK/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-background.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDHr9xhz/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-man.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 06, 2023, 05:44:14 PM
Perhaps:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZ7cZKpT/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-man-woman.jpg)
============>
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBF16wpY/Darnell-woman-with-bag-slow-cropped.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 11, 2023, 02:16:44 AM
Someone saw that long paper bag in that pile of items/trash there on the east side of the entrance steps ( which is a curiosity itself) and they realized this could  be used as THE BAG that could be shown held up by a deputy (whom was wearing a cowboy hat no less) and photographed there in front of the entrance., to prejudice the public and any future jury towards prematurely accepting the lone assassin ( no conspiracy) theory.

That may explain why no one was able to photograph the bag where it was claimed to have been found in the SN, resorting to adding an outline of where the bag was in the so called final “reconstruction” photo of the SN. ( a total farce of rearranging boxes several times and returning shells that were picked up).

Also, pertaining to that last posted photo clip from the Weigman ? film: There seems to be a rather large black blob as though a bit of black paint was sprayed which creates  black void space between Buell W. Frazier and Billy Lovelady who had moved down to the left (west) side of entrance steps.

BWF is looking down into ( and thru) this void black space towards where Gloria Cavalry was (in front of Lovelady ) and when Gloria was supposedly at this point in time exclaiming that JFK had been shot.

So I have to wonder if Oswald was in that black void space and conspirators had to alter the frames by airbrushing the blackness blob or is it just some kind of photographic phenomenon?

Its kind of a similar blob of blackness that’s in the other frames where Billy Lovelady is farther up the steps and closer to the center handrail, a shadow anomaly already noted and discussed in earlier parts of this thread.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 03:47:54 PM
Someone saw that long paper bag in that pile of items/trash there on the east side of the entrance steps ( which is a curiosity itself)

The BIG curiosity here, Mr. Mason, is that a woman (whoever she be) evidently saw something so odd or troubling related to that bag that her response to the shooting was to go over to the mailboxes, pick the bag up and attract the attention of a police officer.

Who left that bag there? I believe that it was Mr. Oswald, and that it contained the flag he had just waved at Pres. Kennedy
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 03:50:47 PM
Again two questions press:

QI. ONE flag or TWO flags?

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjNvwgMN/Towner-full-flags.gif)

Q2. If two flags, where is the second one positioned--------in the doorway, or out on the footpath (held by someone standing alone, well north of the line of spectators)?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 03:57:06 PM
Other than that, the only remaining possibility would seem to be that this in Bell------

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4J3XJnn/Bell-full-saturated-frame-0045-legs.jpg)

-------is a portion of this in Towner-------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0Qs1T2X/Towner-LOST-BULLET-2-Reese.jpg)

--------rather than what I've always assumed it to be, namely the legs of a woman standing on the east side of the doorway.

Looking closely at Bell, it honestly just seems to be the legs of a woman standing on the east side of the doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkYQ0Jps/Bell-tshirt-large.gif)

Which would mean..............
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 04:00:16 PM
.................IF (as seems the case IMO) these are two flags rather than one, THEN

a) We have two people on the west side of the doorway, each waving a flag

(https://i.postimg.cc/NjNvwgMN/Towner-full-flags.gif)

b) One of these people is Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald; the other is Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 04:09:05 PM
b) One of these people is Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald; the other is Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady

The white & blue area to the left (i.e. our left) of Mr. Lovelady here in Bell is actually two flags, one slightly in front of the other. The downwards-to-the-east motion of the lower flag (which is in front) is in sync with the tug of Mr. Lovelady's left hand, which is holding the flag's staff

(https://i.postimg.cc/J4RMZYBW/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

The white and blue above this flag is from Mr. Oswald's flag (Mr. Oswald still standing west of Mr. Lovelady)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 04:20:22 PM
Mr. Lovelady has had a fake shadow added down his right side in Wiegman to hide the flag, which he is still holding to his right (i.e. west). Because Altgens limits how much Mr. Lovelady can credibly be shadowed, the shadow can only go so far. A tiny portion of the flag manages to show up in the early frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLbY1rJQ/Lovelady-flag-Wiegman.jpg)

In the later frames, a more drastically encroaching shadow hides all of Mr. Lovelady's flag (though perhaps not its horizontally-held-in-the-left-hand staff):

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1DmNVQM/Lovelady-wiegman-curved-shadow.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 04:35:47 PM
Ca. 30 secs later, and Darnell gives us a glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's flag, whose staff he still holds in his left hand:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hQgSsnM/Darnell-new-frame-raised.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/CxCRgrnP/Darnell-doorway-slower.gif)

Mr. Oswald is no longer on the steps. He has returned his flag to the paper bag, which he has dumped out by the mailboxes-----------------thereby arousing the suspicions of a certain woman-----------------who in turn attracts the attention of Officer Baker:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zBF16wpY/Darnell-woman-with-bag-slow-cropped.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

Where is Mr. Oswald now? Perhaps he is the reason why the front door is moving in Darnell. And perhaps he is seconds away from being confronted by Officer Baker (who has his description from the woman holding the bag) in the front-of-building small storage room:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25fXqy6j/Storage-Room-campbell.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQTH9GyQ/Biffle-storage.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 04:40:40 PM
No wonder Mr. Lovelady had to tell so many lies afterwards! He had been on the same team as Mr. Oswald-------which (as far as they had been given to understand) was Team Kennedy.

Pres. Kennedy was told to watch out for flags being waved in the Depository doorway by two guys in red shirts. This would tell him that all was in place on the sixth floor. At his signal (a brush of the hand across the hair), the staged false-flag provocation would proceed as planned.

Little did Messrs. Kennedy, Lovelady or Oswald know that the off-books staged incident had been infiltrated and turned into a lethal ambush.

There is a lot of tragedy packed into these frames:

(https://i.ibb.co/XkyPPxP/Towner-Unger-full.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 11, 2023, 04:45:41 PM
This is the moment poor Mr. Lovelady discovers he's been horribly duped:

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dR5LStJ/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

Mr. Oswald may not even know yet that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Sean Kneringer on June 11, 2023, 06:46:41 PM
Are there any other unidentified witnesses of note besides Babushka Lady and Dark Complected Man?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 12, 2023, 04:24:11 AM
If Oswald discarded the flag in the bag and continued walking EASTward then that would place him about the Houston/Elm intersection where the man is in the M film that seems to have approx same build and hair as Oswald .

But would not this make the ENTIRE Baker meeting Oswald scenario a total

Buell W. Frazier has stated he saw Oswald in this area of Houston and Elm st before Frazier went back into the TSBD, so how does Oswald ever meet the reporter Pierce Allman if Oswald had already departed the steps to discard his flag/bag?

Should we question Allmans credibility?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 14, 2023, 02:33:39 PM
[Reserved]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 16, 2023, 04:32:21 PM
No wonder Mr. Lovelady had to tell so many lies afterwards! He had been on the same team as Mr. Oswald-------which (as far as they had been given to understand) was Team Kennedy.

Pres. Kennedy was told to watch out for flags being waved in the Depository doorway by two guys in red shirts.

Thus!

1. Mr. Oswald did indeed bring curtain rods to work that morning: one for himself, another for Mr. Lovelady, to attach their flags to
2. Mr. Oswald, in custody, denied the curtain rods because they were a telltale element in what had really happened
3. At some point after the assassination, the two curtain rods were found in the Depository and tested for Mr. Oswald's fingerprints. Result: negative. It may be, however, that the one legible print was actually that of Mr. Lovelady. A dangerous set of prints to have on record....
4. So a DIFFERENT 'legible print' had to be 'found' and recorded on two curtain rods----------hence (at least in part) the ridiculous shenanigans in the Paine garage, where two curtain rods were 'discovered' and 'received' on-the-record by the WC; hence also the shenanigans with the two different versions of the crime lab form. They made sure that a non-dangerous legible print would be the one that went into the official record

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYMYY1Wf/Curtain-Rods-Texas-History-guide.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/yAPLDbk.gif)

Note the date here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zKp2RY0/Curtain-rods-photo4-contrast.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 16, 2023, 05:39:49 PM
Here is Mr. Bill Shelley:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cL437QrX/bill-shelley-2-cropped.jpg)

Note how low his pants hang under the waist.
Note a second fact, not evident from the photograph: he has the distinguishing feature of having red hair (a fact revealed some years back by Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier).

Well, I believe this red-haired, low-hanging-trousered man caught in Hughes walking AWAY from the scene, carrying something in his arms as he crosses the Main/Houston intersection, may possibly be none other than Mr. Shelley in a casual jacket:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vm43hRcq/Man-in-Hughes1-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz4PsqMR/Man-in-Hughes2-arrow.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on June 17, 2023, 08:59:38 AM
Here is Mr. Bill Shelley:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cL437QrX/bill-shelley-2-cropped.jpg)

Note how low his pants hang under the waist.
Note a second fact, not evident from the photograph: he has the distinguishing feature of having red hair (a fact revealed some years back by Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier).

Well, I believe this red-haired, low-hanging-trousered man caught in Hughes walking AWAY from the scene, carrying something in his arms as he crosses the Main/Houston intersection, may possibly be none other than Mr. Shelley in a casual jacket:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vm43hRcq/Man-in-Hughes1-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz4PsqMR/Man-in-Hughes2-arrow.jpg)

It's kind of hard to tell if this is indeed Shelley, because the face isn't really clear in the photos. The head shape does appear to be the same.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 17, 2023, 01:29:20 PM
It's kind of hard to tell if this is indeed Shelley, because the face isn't really clear in the photos. The head shape does appear to be the same.

Not too many red-headed men in Dealey Plaza. And not too many folks walking with purpose away from the scene. I think the probability that this is Mr. Shelley is strong.

If it's him, then we can start with his same-day affidavit:

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8qKmcCB/Shelley-affidavit-back-to-building.jpg)

All true, except he's left out a little southwards excursion he took beyond the hot zone in order to dispose of whatever it is we see him carrying in Hughes.

Like Messrs. Oswald and Lovelady (and, one presumes, Truly), Mr. Shelley has cooperated in facilitating what he has understood to be a White House-approved staged incident (presented to him perhaps as an exercise to test SS response?). In the doorway for the motorcade, he hears the shots and is not perturbed. But when Ms. Gloria Calvery tells him out by the "corner of the park" that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, he is stunned. With quick thinking (and perhaps after a quick exchange here with Mr. Oswald), he gets walking....... Having dumped whatever it is needs dumping, he returns to the building.

Mr. Lovelady, meanwhile, has had his horrible 'Calvery revelation' seconds after Mr. Shelley---------and at the front entrance.

The story Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady will tell about going west to the railroad yards will be a little fiction designed to cover the interval during which Mr. Shelley (and, perhaps, Mr. Lovelady elsewhere) was away from the scene.

Mr. Oswald, in custody, will mention Mr. Shelley's presence out front, but will say nothing to blow his or his own cover as participants in a non-lethal false-flag operation.

I believe Messrs Lovelady, Shelley, Truly and Oswald went into 11/22 entirely free of nefarious intent towards the person of, or foreknowledge of the attack on, Pres. Kennedy. It was Mr. Oswald's deep misfortune to be the one served up afterwards as the scapegoat-----for everything.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 20, 2023, 12:26:05 AM
The simplest scenario is just Oswald bringing out the paper bag containing a provocative flag he intended to wave, at about 12:27, and then moving eastward off the steps to discard the flag and bag about 12:31,  after which Oswald continued walking eastward to the intersection of Houston and Elm where he stopped to observe the commotion of the officers grouped together. And where he was observed at about 12:33 by Buell W. Frazier. And which resulted in Oswald possibly being in the M film.

Shelley may have seen the flag and thought it imperative to get rid of such provocative item, that such item might draw criticism of the TSBD manager Roy Truly for having allowed such insult to the POTUS to be displayed at the front steps as the JFK limo passed by.

However , this would mean that Shelley and Truly were willing to let Oswald be railroaded knowing that he could not possibly be the 6th floor assassin.

The only rational that could be remotely constructed here for Shelley and Truly is that IF the flag was a Communist red flag , that they might consider that Oswald was deserving of being arrested and that Oswald was involved someway, and that since it was such an insult for a USMC veteran to have displayed such flag, that Oswald deserved whatever judgement would be decreed by the US government.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 20, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
Not too many red-headed men in Dealey Plaza. And not too many folks walking with purpose away from the scene. I think the probability that this is Mr. Shelley is strong.

If it's him, then we can start with his same-day affidavit:

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8qKmcCB/Shelley-affidavit-back-to-building.jpg)

All true, except he's left out a little southwards excursion he took beyond the hot zone in order to dispose of whatever it is we see him carrying in Hughes.

Like Messrs. Oswald and Lovelady (and, one presumes, Truly), Mr. Shelley has cooperated in facilitating what he has understood to be a White House-approved staged incident (presented to him perhaps as an exercise to test SS response?). In the doorway for the motorcade, he hears the shots and is not perturbed. But when Ms. Gloria Calvery tells him out by the "corner of the park" that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, he is stunned. With quick thinking (and perhaps after a quick exchange here with Mr. Oswald), he gets walking....... Having dumped whatever it is needs dumping, he returns to the building.

Possibly relevant:

We see two flashes in that part of the doorway.

Hughes--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZFw5Fwn/Hughes-longer-flash.gif)

Towner--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2WBwRMR/Towner-flash.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mkPWyTrY/Lost-Bullet-doorway-flash-marked.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 20, 2023, 01:00:14 AM
The simplest scenario is just Oswald bringing out the paper bag containing a provocative flag he intended to wave, at about 12:27, and then moving eastward off the steps to discard the flag and bag about 12:31

OK, but there appear to be TWO flags being waved, and by two different people
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 22, 2023, 01:44:00 AM
Well what do you think Mr.Ford?

Is that Lovelady in the foreground ( at ground level ) waving a flag (or something) up in the air , while Oswald is still on the steps where he was in Hughes film ( drinking the coke), and for some reason no longer in the sunlight , perhaps while he was ATTEMPTING to unfurl his flag?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Rick Plant on June 23, 2023, 11:57:41 AM
Not too many red-headed men in Dealey Plaza. And not too many folks walking with purpose away from the scene. I think the probability that this is Mr. Shelley is strong.

If it's him, then we can start with his same-day affidavit:

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8qKmcCB/Shelley-affidavit-back-to-building.jpg)

All true, except he's left out a little southwards excursion he took beyond the hot zone in order to dispose of whatever it is we see him carrying in Hughes.

Like Messrs. Oswald and Lovelady (and, one presumes, Truly), Mr. Shelley has cooperated in facilitating what he has understood to be a White House-approved staged incident (presented to him perhaps as an exercise to test SS response?). In the doorway for the motorcade, he hears the shots and is not perturbed. But when Ms. Gloria Calvery tells him out by the "corner of the park" that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, he is stunned. With quick thinking (and perhaps after a quick exchange here with Mr. Oswald), he gets walking....... Having dumped whatever it is needs dumping, he returns to the building.

Mr. Lovelady, meanwhile, has had his horrible 'Calvery revelation' seconds after Mr. Shelley---------and at the front entrance.

The story Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady will tell about going west to the railroad yards will be a little fiction designed to cover the interval during which Mr. Shelley (and, perhaps, Mr. Lovelady elsewhere) was away from the scene.

Mr. Oswald, in custody, will mention Mr. Shelley's presence out front, but will say nothing to blow his or his own cover as participants in a non-lethal false-flag operation.

I believe Messrs Lovelady, Shelley, Truly and Oswald went into 11/22 entirely free of nefarious intent towards the person of, or foreknowledge of the attack on, Pres. Kennedy. It was Mr. Oswald's deep misfortune to be the one served up afterwards as the scapegoat-----for everything.

I agree Mr. Ford. The head shape appears to be the same and so do the large ears. Would you agree with that? So yes, it's a strong possibility that it is Shelley.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 24, 2023, 03:01:51 PM
Well what do you think Mr.Ford?

Is that Lovelady in the foreground ( at ground level ) waving a flag (or something) up in the air

Once again, Mr. Mason, the Bell film rules this out-----------it shows Mr. Lovelady several steps up
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 24, 2023, 03:28:33 PM
I agree Mr. Ford. The head shape appears to be the same and so do the large ears. Would you agree with that? So yes, it's a strong possibility that it is Shelley.

Yes, Mr. Plant, and if it is him his action in walking purposively AWAY from the scene with something in his arms tells us that something has gone wrong and he is engaging in some sort of damage limitation.

And consider this:

From Judge HYER's window, Mrs. [Lillian] MOONEYHAM noted a number of bystander running toward the cement pavilion which borders Elm Street between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.

If Mr. Shelley, having learned that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, has to act quickly to dispose of what he has previously understood to be 'necessary' evidence (i.e. necessary to tie the provocation to a pro-Castro group), then it is reasonable to posit that someone else in the TSBD group who has facilitated what they thought was going to be a staged non-lethal incident goes up to the SN window shortly after the assassination to perform a similar clean-up operation there.

The man seen at the sixth-floor window 4-5 minutes after the assassination by Mrs. Mooneyham may have been Mr. Truly. Or he may have been Mr. Lovelady. Or he may have been Mr. Dougherty. Or he may have been Mr. Oswald. ("I'll keep this cop away from the sixth floor," Mr. Truly mutters to Mr. Oswald by the first-floor storage room, "Get up there and get rid of the damn XYZ.")
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 25, 2023, 10:22:49 AM
The man seen at the sixth-floor window 4-5 minutes after the assassination by Mrs. Mooneyham may have been Mr. Truly. Or he may have been Mr. Lovelady. Or he may have been Mr. Dougherty. Or he may have been Mr. Oswald. ("I'll keep this cop away from the sixth floor," Mr. Truly mutters to Mr. Oswald by the first-floor storage room, "Get up there and get rid of the damn XYZ.")

This last scenario would actually yield a credible second-floor lunchroom encounter:

----AFTER the encounter at the first-floor small storage room near the front entrance, Mr. Oswald watches Mr. Truly and Officer Baker take off for the shipping floor
----He takes the front stairs up to two and goes through the (empty) office area. His plan is to make his way to the rear stairs in order to go up to six, for he assumes the other two will be already on their way upstairs ahead of him on one of the freight elevators by the time he reaches the rear stairs
----The unexpected use of the stairs by Mr. Truly and Officer Baker leads to Mr. Oswald's being spotted by Officer Baker behind the window of the door leading off the landing
----They have a brief second exchange
----Mr. Oswald ends up taking a freight elevator (the one brought down by Mr. Dougherty?) up to six

Officer Baker doesn't bother mentioning either LHO encounter in his affidavit because he knows this man cannot possibly have been upstairs at the time of the shots.

In the course of the 'investigation', the FIRST LHO-Truly-Baker encounter near the front door is deleted but the SECOND one up at the lunchroom is kept. This allows the ludicrous idea that Mr. Oswald had been on six at the time of the P. Parade to be pushed. It also allows Mr. Truly to explain away the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up (as per Officer Baker's affidavit).

The attraction of this scenario is that it establishes for the first time a logical reason for Mr. Oswald to have gone UP to the second floor after the shooting: he was en route to the sixth floor in order to dispose of now undesirable evidence-----------some 'signature' left by the pro-Castro group ostensibly behind the shots-fired incident. (The idea of his going up to two in order to buy a second Coca-Cola never did wash.*)

*However, he may indeed have purchased a second Coca-Cola in order to cover himself----------in case the officer later talks about meeting him up there. He may even make a point of taking this Coke down to one to be seen by others with it. And---------yes----------he may even go back down to one via the office area, and be seen by Mrs. Reid. Down he goes, back to the first floor, by the front stairs, and makes his way to the rear stairs. Thanks to Mr. Dougherty, a freight elevator is now there for him to take up to six.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 25, 2023, 10:44:23 AM
In the course of the 'investigation', the FIRST LHO-Truly-Baker encounter near the front door is deleted but the SECOND one up at the lunchroom is kept.

In which case, Mr. Sean Murphy would stand vindicated in his claim that the underlined sentence below in Mr. Truly's FBI interview report from later that day is telltale in its weird gratuitousness:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ry1QJ6kn/Truly-fbi-no-one.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 29, 2023, 02:36:36 AM
There’s not enough time for Oswald to go up to the 6th floor after a possible trek from outside entrance steps up to the 2nd floor lunchroom (via the outer hallway) and then return to the 1st floor in time to get out of the TSBD before it was locked down as early as possible 3 min post shots per DPD officer Barnett.

So it might be that it was just the 2nd floor lunchroom that Oswald was going to get something like his jacket which he very likely might have left there with his keys and his bracelet in the pocket ( items that could be easily lost during his work).

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 29, 2023, 10:13:59 AM
There’s not enough time for Oswald to go up to the 6th floor after a possible trek from outside entrance steps up to the 2nd floor lunchroom (via the outer hallway) and then return to the 1st floor in time to get out of the TSBD before it was locked down as early as possible 3 min post shots per DPD officer Barnett.

There is plenty of time, because Mr. Oswald left AFTER the building had been locked down.

According to Mr Harry D. Holmes, Mr Oswald in custody recalled being stopped at the front door by an officer, who only let him pass when he was cleared as an employee by his superintendent of the place. The superintendent of the place was Mr Roy Truly.

From Asst. Chief Charles Batchelor's report on the activities of Deputy Chief of Police George L. Lumpkin:

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdFT6ptH/Kaminski-Batchelor-report-on-Lumpkin.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Oswald knew the precise system that had been put in place several minutes after the shooting-----i.e. Mr Truly at the front door vouching for employees to a police officer-----because Officer Kaminski, having checked with Mr. Truly, allowed him to step outside.

Mr. Billy Lovelady saw this, and told Mr. James Jarman all about it. From Mr. Jarman's HSCA interview:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... Oswald was coming out the door and [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policemen that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 29, 2023, 10:25:16 AM
Mr Oswald knew the precise system that had been put in place several minutes after the shooting-----i.e. Mr Truly at the front door vouching for employees to a police officer-----

The Martin film shows that precise system in operation (Mr. Truly is standing behind the glass [right of screen]).
Mr. Lovelady is standing on the steps.
All as per Mr. Jarman's account.
Substitute the black man being ushered through the door here with Mr. Oswald, and we have the scene as described by Mr. Lovelady to Mr. Jarman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxtkkzbk/Martin-Film-Clip-With-Lovelady.gif)

NB! Mr. Oswald was given permission to step outside. He was NOT given permission to leave the scene. But he did.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on June 29, 2023, 10:40:06 AM

3. He LIED about returning to the first floor to return to eating lunch, because he needed to account for missing minutes and wished to hide the fact that those minutes had been devoted to going up to the sixth floor to clean something up

Mr. Howard Brennan recalled seeing an Oldsmobile parked funny by the southeast corner of the Depository just before the motorcade. Just after the shots, he noticed it was gone. This struck him as most peculiar.

I suspect Plan A for Mr. Oswald was that he would dispose of his flag/paper sack by the mailboxes and then hop into the waiting Oldsmobile, to be driven away (for Red Bird Airport?). But something stopped him from getting in that car, and induced him to return inside the building.

What might that something have been? I suspect it was on-the-spot information furnished to him by a panicked Mr. Shelley, fresh from his encounter with Ms. Gloria Calvery: Kennedy has been hit

There was evidence deliberately left behind in the building designed to tie a false-flag provocation to a Castroite group (with Mr. Oswald knowingly setting himself up as one of their number). Now that the provocation had been trumped by an actual assassination, that evidence had to go. Mr. Oswald had NOT signed up for involvement in, or blame for involvement in, an assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2023, 11:36:44 AM
So--------------------------

Three interlocking conspiracies:

CONSPIRACY A: An off-books false-flag staged incident involving shots to be fired (non-lethally) from the sixth floor. White House-approved. Mr. Oswald (& certain others in the TSBD) a party to this conspiracy.
CONSPIRACY B: Piggybacking Conspiracy A to carry out an actual assassination. Mr. Oswald (& TSBD others) not a party to this conspiracy.
CONSPIRACY C: The post hoc cover-up.

It was the diabolical genius of Conspiracy B that ALL those involved in Conspiracy A (up to and including those in the Kennedy inner circle) would find themselves entrapped into supporting Conspiracy C.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2023, 12:56:13 PM
As we have known since 2019, Mr. Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. Parade". His claim was suppressed by the 'investigating' authorities for the simple reason that it was true. As I have outlined in the foregoing pages, Mr. Oswald went out front to perform a very specific task.

As for those folks STILL pressing the claim that 'PrayerMan' in Darnell is Mr. Oswald, even after the emergence of this better frame------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

------------they are being every bit as foolish as those who pressed the LHO=AltgensDoorwayMan claim long after it had been discredited. These true believers are blinding themselves to, and distracting from, the real action in that doorway. Deep down they must know their claim has been defeated, but still they push the nonsense, hoping they can keep the faith alive indefinitely pending miraculous release of the original Darnell frames. Sad!

'PrayerMan' in Darnell is a woman. Definitely not Ms. Sarah Stanton. Probably Ms. Pauline Sanders:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yfY3JF1/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg)

We don't need to await release of the original Darnell film to know that the real bombshell in it is THIS:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 09, 2023, 01:54:38 PM
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sanders-standing.jpg)

Mrs. Sanders gives---"To the best of [her] recollection"---east side as where she was standing when she took up her position ca. 12:20.

Darnell is taken ~10 mins. later.

Since emergence of the better Darnell frame, she seems to be the only viable candidate left for PrayerManInDarnell.

If 'Prayer Man' in Darnell is not her, then Mr. Oswald, being male, still doesn't fit the bill
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 10, 2023, 01:54:24 AM
I don’t think there’s enough resolution in Darnell to see chromosomes or genitalia.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 10, 2023, 03:20:08 AM
What other women employees were as short as 5’3” besides Pauline Sanders and Sarah Staunton?

If there are none, and if Staunton is the fluffy white shirt person with the hands upraised shading the face, at the center handrail location , then Staunton moved from being beside Sanders at the east side landing to move down a few steps off the landing.

If Stanton moved but did not state such in her affidavit/FBI statement , then it’s not unreasonable that Sanders might have moved also, and not stated such movement in affidavit as well.

Stauntons center handrail location is partly verified by Billy Lovelady remarking in some newspaper interview about being next to a woman who worked on the 2nd floor and in WC testimony ,Lovelady actually naming Staunton as being beside him ( albeit on the other side of the center handrail.)

Since PrayerWoman (PW)  seems to have a very good  LOS to Baker running diagonally across  and PW seems to be looking southeasterly while most everyone else appears to be looking down Elm st, and since Sanders is about the only witness who stated seeing a police officer running up to the steps, it’s a reasonable possibility that PW is Pauline Sanders.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2023, 08:29:55 AM
I don’t think there’s enough resolution in Darnell to see chromosomes or genitalia.

Well if you wish to push the idea that PrayerMan in Darnell might be Mr. Oswald in drag, knock yourself out
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 10, 2023, 01:53:25 PM
Like you can actually determine that this is woman’s clothing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 11, 2023, 04:05:16 AM
Its a shame that one fuzzy white ring appearing around the neck of Prayer Person which is claimed to be the result of a better version of the  film vs the many posts of a copy of the film we viewed for many years, can completely eradicate a rather lengthy analysis that had rational logical reasons why Prayer person was Oswald.

Now, instead of the logical place Oswald would likely have gone, had he exited the TSBD front door at 12:29, and from where he would easily have been unnoticed in that west corner, a new narrative has us deep into the most fantastic scenario of Oswald now moving in FRONT of people and taking out a flag and waving it!

And we are supposed to believe that NO ONE on the steps remembers seeing this flag unfurled and waving it or the person waving it, EVEN AS at the same time JFK riding by in the car is theoretically fixated on this flag and that Baker is also fixated upon it such that he is supposedly running  to where the flag and or bag was supposedly discarded by Oswald.

The 1st criticism that was immediately challenging the PM=Oswald was the apparent height of PM bring 5’3” approx relative to Buell W. Frazier.

There was a rational answer for this which was dismissed on the notion that it’ was not possible for PM to be standing one step down with both feet on the lower step, because of a computer model that claimed to represent reality more than an actual empirical experiment of a real person on the real steps with the real sunlight angle.

No one has actually gone to Dealey Plaza and have a 5’9” 135 lb man stand in the west corner of the TSBD entrance or next to the west wall and attempt to position himself one step down from the top landing, and to film this with a 63 era motion camera, at 12:29 , on the 22nd of November, to determine if it’s possible or not.

This white ring around the neck phenomenon has what proof of actually existing when  for 15 years it was never there, from when the PM figure was made visible by a process of developing the negative to lighten up the background.?



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 11, 2023, 07:37:17 AM
Its a shame that one fuzzy white ring appearing around the neck of Prayer Person which is claimed to be the result of a better version of the  film vs the many posts of a copy of the film we viewed for many years, can completely eradicate a rather lengthy analysis that had rational logical reasons why Prayer person was Oswald.

This is an inaccurate characterization of how PM=LHO came to be discredited, Mr. Mason. The "many posts of a copy of the film we viewed for many years" was in fact ONE frame viewed over and over again. Prayer Man in this one frame struck many people (myself included) as LHO-like. Mr James Hackerott warned us that the clearer version of the film in the 6FM showed-------across multiple frames--------a neckline that seemed incompatible with male attire. And then the new (and, yes, superior) frame appeared online and-------------bore his claim out.

Several people have viewed the 6FM copy of Darnell. To my knowledge, not a single one has come back with the declaration 'Yep, looks like Oswald!' Now why do you think that might be?

Quote
Now, instead of the logical place Oswald would likely have gone, had he exited the TSBD front door at 12:29, and from where he would easily have been unnoticed in that west corner, a new narrative has us deep into the most fantastic scenario of Oswald now moving in FRONT of people and taking out a flag and waving it!

I have studied the doorway films VERY closely, and have offered a considered analysis of what they show:
--Mr. Oswald drinking from his Coke bottle (Hughes)
--Two flags being waved from the doorway; Pres. Kennedy looking that way, and then brushing his hand across his hair (Towner)
--Mr. Lovelady, a few feet east of Mr. Oswald, waving the second flag (Bell)
--A ludicrous fake shadow down Mr. Lovelady's right side (Wiegman)
--A lady holding up the (soon-to-be-infamous) paper sack by the mailboxes, and Officer Baker (and another woman) running straight in her direction (Darnell)
--Mr. Shelley walking away from the scene, post-assassination, with something held to his chest (Hughes)

I stand over all elements of this analysis, and the compound explanation that flows from it.

What is YOUR analysis of what the films show, Mr. Mason? What, for example, do YOU believe accounts for the objects being waved in the doorway in Towner? (Are they too "made visible by a process of developing the negative to lighten up the background"?) And what do YOU believe the woman by the mailboxes in Darnell is holding? A surfboard?

Mr. Oswald said he "went outside to watch P. Parade". He was telling the truth. Prayer Man in Darnell has become the new DoorwayMan-in-Altgens: an initially promising attempt to pinpoint Mr. Oswald's location in the doorway that has devolved into a sorry distraction.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 11, 2023, 08:43:28 AM
Not too many red-headed men in Dealey Plaza. And not too many folks walking with purpose away from the scene. I think the probability that this is Mr. Shelley is strong.

If it's him, then we can start with his same-day affidavit:

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8qKmcCB/Shelley-affidavit-back-to-building.jpg)

All true, except he's left out a little southwards excursion he took beyond the hot zone in order to dispose of whatever it is we see him carrying in Hughes.

I think this is Mr. Shelley just after the shooting, carrying something(s) away from the scene:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NF33HrCG/Shelley-in-Hughes.jpg)

And I think he--------and NOT Ms. Pauline Sanders----------is the person standing on the landing behind Mr. Oswald in these earlier Hughes frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRdZyY0t/Hughes-Longer-Shelley.gif)

We are seeing his head just over and behind Mr. Oswald, and we are seeing his jacket and head reflected in the glass.

If so, then Ms. Sanders only moved over to the west side of the landing in the seconds after the shooting.

This would mean that the ONLY people who would have had the flag-waving of Messrs. Oswald and Lovelady in their sight-line were
--Mr. Bill Shelley
--Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier

Everyone else's eyes were fixed on the motorcade
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 11, 2023, 10:39:09 PM
Several people have viewed the 6FM copy of Darnell. To my knowledge, not a single one has come back with the declaration 'Yep, looks like Oswald!' Now why do you think that might be?

Only two that I know of, and neither said “looks just like Pauline Sanders”. Or even “looks like a woman”. You’re way overthinking this neckline thing.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on July 12, 2023, 01:23:47 PM
Only two that I know of, and neither said “looks just like Pauline Sanders”. Or even “looks like a woman”. You’re way overthinking this neckline thing.

Nope, just thinking about it-----and facing the implications of what the frame shows.

But like I say, if you think this neckline could conceivably belong to a man in Dallas '63, who am I to tell you to desist from such silliness?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 14, 2023, 05:53:45 AM
Mr.Fords theoretical position for Oswald out front on the steps: Oswald = Lovelady
remains as questionable as the old theory Oswald=PM.

The pendulum can swing more in favor of Mr.Fords new theory if :

A. There is more substantiation of this claimed “original” Darnell film frame that the white necklace effect on PM is not an aberration or distortion from camera or translation to pixel format on the computer or smart phone screen and is therefore a true image.

B. The apparent seemly solid tone reddish brown color of the shirt of presumed Lovelady in Hughes film is not due to morphing of black and red checkerboard squared pattern and can be shown by experiment that the shirt is more probably a solid tone reddish shirt.
 
Note for B: perhaps Oswald’s actual reddish brown shirt could be worn by some person and that person be filmed with the Hughes type 63 era camera at the same distance and same sun angle. Then repeat and have someone wear Lovelady type red and black square shirt. Then compare the results as they are translated to pixel format from the 2 films.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2023, 12:54:01 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLkL2Lwk/LHO-Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/FKzNGwhp/Hughes-LHO-Lovelady-contrast.gif)

Brief recap!: When Mr. Oswald (green arrow) leans to his right, we catch a glimpse of his reddish-sleeved right arm in the glass behind him (yellow arrow)

But there is more!: That lean also affords us a fleeting glimpse of something else being reflected in the glass. Orange arrow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj7phNvL/Hughes-LHO-flag-reflection.gif)

What is it? It's too light-colored to be the back of Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt, or of his dark pants.

It's the flag. He's holding it behind him, in his left hand, and is a moment away from whipping it out and starting to wave it.

This also explains why we don't see the flesh of his left hand: it's covered by his body.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 18, 2023, 01:15:30 PM
Brief recap!: When Mr. Oswald (green arrow) leans to his left, we catch a glimpse of his reddish-sleeved right arm in the glass behind him (yellow arrow)

But there is more!: That lean also affords us a fleeting glimpse of something else being reflected in the glass. Orange arrow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj7phNvL/Hughes-LHO-flag-reflection.gif)

But there is YET more!:

The reflection of the flag in the glass just so happens to coincide with this little bright flash:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdHN9qp9/Hughes-longer-flash.gif)

I thought it was a camera flash. No: it's a flutter from the flag (not a reflection, the thing itself)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 18, 2023, 10:13:59 PM
Who let Doyle back in here? Time to fire up the “Doyle falsehoods” list again, currently numbering 784.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on August 19, 2023, 12:15:04 AM
All are welcome here, let people have their say.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Gerry Down on August 19, 2023, 02:08:04 AM
It's important all viewpoints are heard as any person might have a clue that could help crack the case.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 19, 2023, 09:39:57 PM
Imo if the 3rd party memory of relatives of Stanton is accurate, that Oswald was seen by
Stanton around the 2nd floor lunchroom staircase just BEFORE Stanton left to go outside to the front steps of TSBD., then it was probably approx 12:12 at the latest. Stanton got outside and was on the steps probably right AT 12:15 having preceded Mrs Reid and Carolyn Arnold arriving slightly later.

I don’t see any conflict with Carolyn Arnold’s 12:15  2nd floor lunchroom sighting of Oswald or a latter possible 12:25 front lobby sighting, because it all fits with the theory Oswald having gone outside in watch the P.Parade just as FBI agent Hosty notes recorded.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 20, 2023, 09:37:22 PM
Does Mr. Doyle at least agree hat Oswald was probably in the Domino room by 12:26 such that he could have seen James Jarman and Harold Norman going past when they reentered TSBD by the rear loading dock door?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 21, 2023, 05:03:52 PM
This is all pure Doyle fantasy. The only thing Stanton’s relatives said is that she told them she saw Oswald on an unspecified staircase at an unspecified time holding a Pepsi.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 21, 2023, 06:34:52 PM
That’s a whole lot of words to admit that nobody ever said that Stanton saw him on the second floor. Or when.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 23, 2023, 09:36:48 PM
I’m sorry , but I don’t quite follow the logic of Hosty writing down notes of Oswald having said that he went outside to watch “THE P.PARADE” to describe himself going out AFTER shots fired because that’s seems an unlikely phrase to use.

Would he not have more likely said some phrase such as “I went out to see what all the commotion/ noise of sirens etc was about”

Since it doesn’t seem likely that Hosty would fabricate the P.Parade note which is surely contradictory to the narrative being constructed by Will Fritz ( under pressure from LBJ himself no less)

And since Fritz went out of his way to refute this supposed “out front” statement by Oswald by having 3 more interviewer to write statements claiming Oswald had DENIED being out front at time of shots…

Logical deduction therefore is more probable that Hosty was truthful.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 24, 2023, 10:18:18 PM
When did Buell Frazier state that a partly-eaten cheese sandwich and apple were seen on the 2nd Floor Lunch Room table after the assassination?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 25, 2023, 10:07:27 AM
REFUTED:
--------------AltgensDoorwayman = LHO
--------------PM-in-Darnell = LHO
--------------PM-in-Darnell = Mrs. Sarah Stanton

UNREFUTED:
--------------Mr. Oswald in interrogation said he "went outside to watch P. Parade"
--------------Mr. Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" was buried in the official interrogation reports
--------------There is an impossible shadow down Mr. Lovelady's side in Wiegman
--------------The Towner film shows least one flag being waved from the lower west side of the doorway as Pres. Kennedy passes
--------------The Hughes film shows Mr. Oswald in the doorway, wearing the reddish shirt later tagged as CE151, and drinking from a bottle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKjx1Z6R/Hughes-raised-hand.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/rwY2wkVG/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)
--------------Later frames in the Hughes film show Mr. Bill Shelley walking away from the scene (going south across the Main-Houston intersection), carrying something(s)
--------------The paper sack which Mr. Oswald will later be accused of having brought the rifle to work in makes its first appearance in Darnell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)
--------------Darnell also shows Officer Marion Baker beating a path for the woman who is holding this sack up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 26, 2023, 08:07:19 PM
Mr. Sandy Larsen really did wonderful work with this gif:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

Look at Officer Baker in the first frames, and you'll assume he's heading straight for the doorway. But then the actual doorway comes into view. It's quite a jolt.

He's not heading for the doorway at all. Nor is the running woman just a little north-east of him heading for the doorway. They are both heading straight for this woman and what she is holding up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)

Her reaction to the assassination has been to go over to the mailboxes and pick up a paper sack. She must have just seen something that disturbed her enough to make her do this--------------and to draw attention
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 27, 2023, 02:19:30 AM
I’ve seen no statement from Buell W. Frazier that specifically identifies PM figure as Sarah Stanton.

If BW Frazier would like to post on this forum that he is certain that the PM figure is Sarah Stanton, then that would be great.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on August 27, 2023, 01:09:30 PM
Stanton seems far too chubby to be PM.

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 27, 2023, 02:38:03 PM
~Sigh~

The issue of Mrs. Stanton's location was resolved many moons ago:

After the assassination, Mr Lovelady found himself having to look again and again at the Altgens photograph (because of erroneous claims that the 'man in the doorway' was Mr Oswald rather than himself). His memory of relative positions at the time of the shooting was thus set in stone by that image. He confidently pointed out to Mr Dom Bonafede a lady shielding her eyes in that photograph, a lady who he said worked on the second floor. His recognition of this lady in the photograph, who is the person he sees standing next to him to his east, explains why he mentions her in his testimony:

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.


Had Mr Ball not (nervously!) interrupted Mr Lovelady here, he would have named the person "right behind" him as Mr Joe Molina, who indeed appears to be 'right behind' him in Altgens.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4d/69/b95RPugR_o.jpg)

 Thumb1:

As for Mr. Shelley, he told FBI he was OUT OF SHOT in the Altgens photograph:

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dNRsGKG/Shelley-altgens-out-of-view.jpg)

He was: he was standing to Mr. Lovelady's right (i.e. he was just west of Mr. Lovelady).

Thus we have Mr. Lovelady, with Ms. Stanton next to him on one side and Mr. Shelley next to him on the other. Just like he said.

But what he left out was a rather important fact:

Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald was in that doorway too.

Just like (as we have known since 2019) he claimed in his first interrogation:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gmf1rVFT/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg)

Here he is in Hughes, taking a drink from his Coke bottle:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKjx1Z6R/Hughes-raised-hand.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/rwY2wkVG/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

The LHO=AltgensDoorwayMan! folks were nearly right; the LHO=PM-in-Darnell!! folks were nearly right. Mr. Oswald was in the very near vicinity.

Since PrayerMan-in-Darnell turned out to be PrayerWoman, the identification of PrayerWoman-in-Darnell has been a trivial pursuit. I think she's Mrs. Pauline Sanders---------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/5yfY3JF1/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg)

----------------but it makes no appreciable difference to anything if she happens to be some other lady (other than Mrs. Stanton--------a candidate ruled out ages ago by all but the chronically blind and/or demented) who made her way to that spot in the seconds following the shooting.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 27, 2023, 06:04:24 PM
What's this?

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/htgF7fYt/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-background.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZLFNpqF/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-man.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 30, 2023, 06:21:14 PM
Ok, I’m not sure which CT theory is the best one right now since the PM theory seems to be refuted.

Maybe I’ll just not get too into the Armstrong theory because there might be another explanation  for Oswald’s timing from
Leaving the TSBD  NOT wearing a jacket to showing up at Brewers store also not wearing a jacket.

Which theory Mr. Ford is currently developing which I don’t want to discard and or cause any more sighing from Mr. Ford :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 30, 2023, 08:49:09 PM
What's this?

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)

Look where this woman is looking (pink arrow):

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDyWGzk1/Wiegman-object-in-background-frame-0001-woman.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 30, 2023, 08:56:44 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)
This scene comes perhaps a second or two after Mr. Altgens takes his photo, which in turn comes ~11 seconds after Towner shows flag-waving in the doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNhjnVbG/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)

So from Towner to these Wiegman frames: ~12-13 secs
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 30, 2023, 11:36:47 PM
Is there a connection perchance between the flag-waving here------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjNvwgMN/Towner-full-flags.gif)
--------------and this some 12/13 secs later-----------
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)
--------------and this some 25 seconds after that?------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 31, 2023, 09:26:57 PM
So from Towner to these Wiegman frames: ~12-13 secs

-----------------------------> Three actions:

1. Flag-waving in doorway (Towner)
2. Leaves steps for pavement IMMEDIATELY after limousine has passed by entrance (job of giving Pres. Kennedy signal now carried out): kneels/leans over and rolls up flag for returning to paper sack (Wiegman----gives glimpse of his head/hair)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)
3. Dumps sack by mailboxes (Darnell)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 31, 2023, 10:03:52 PM
[Reserved]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on August 31, 2023, 10:19:45 PM
[Reserved]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on September 02, 2023, 08:36:59 PM
Skin tone?

(https://i.postimg.cc/rsY2vX8H/Bell-movement.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq2LPJKv/Bell-movement-face-B.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/6qSnTqWf/Bell-movement-face-A.gif)

This is NOT out by the street with the line of spectators-----------it is in the background

tis' all pareidoyleia
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 03, 2023, 02:08:10 AM
[Reserved]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 05, 2023, 02:12:04 AM
Quote
the same tack as Mr. Roy Truly and Co. at the Depository: hang Mr. Oswald----------the one man they know whose name will be linked to the crime----------out to dry.

I have a funny feeling the first person Mr. Bill Shelley phoned up on his eventual re-entry into the building was not his wife but the liaison person for the false flag. This person, a shocked player on Team Kennedy, did some quick thinking and told him to isolate Mr. Oswald.................

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwHrBGH7/Shelley-not-see-lee-marked.jpg)

This manoeuvre later got explained away by the 'Missing From the Roll Call' narrative
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 05, 2023, 02:22:28 PM
Mr. Oswald, Mr. Truly, Mr. Shelley & sundry other TSBD men have been on the same team: facilitation of the White House-approved false flag operation (deliberately missed shots from the TSBD) that will be blamed on pro-Castro elements (incl. specifically [though not as gunman] the 'known' Castro sympathizer Mr. Oswald) and will serve as a pretext for C-Day (12/1/63).

Just imagine then what must be going through Mr. Oswald's mind as he is led in to the Homicide Office after his arrest:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDrwmzJj/Lovelady-in-DPD.gif)

He sees Mr. Lovelady. He is about to see Mr. Shelley (who is about to be brought out of the back room so that Mr. Oswald can be placed in there). Both fellow facilitators of the original false flag plan.

His assumption? 'They've got Billy & Bill too.' Poor fellow thinks they're all in this mess together...............
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 05, 2023, 09:36:59 PM
Mr. Oswald, Mr. Truly, Mr. Shelley & sundry other TSBD men have been on the same team: facilitation of the White House-approved false flag operation (deliberately missed shots from the TSBD) that will be blamed on pro-Castro elements (incl. specifically [though not as gunman] the 'known' Castro sympathizer Mr. Oswald) and will serve as a pretext for C-Day (12/1/63).

Friends, I inadvertently deleted all but one snippet of my last post but two. (Note to self: the MODIFY button works different to the QUOTE button!)

Here again are the basic points covered in that deleted post, in which I summarized the conclusions I have come to based on the available evidence:

1. Mr. Oswald signed up for participation in a White House-approved off-books false flag incident to involve deliberate misses from the TSBD.
2. This shockingly provocative action would be blamed on pro-Castro elements.
3. The point of the staged missed-shots incident: to serve as pretext for C-Day (12/1/63)
4. Mr. Oswald--------a 'known' pro-Castro troublemaker but in actuality a govt. asset---------would become the public face/name of the outrage, the inside man at the TSBD who helped make it all happen. There would be evidence pointing to his involvement (though NOT as gunman), which fact would allow the incident to be sold to the public as a pro-Castro provocation.
5. Mr. Oswald signed up to play this role. He expected to be whisked away from Dallas (perhaps flown out of Redbird?), in all probability never to see his wife & children again. The world would be told that he had fled to Cuba.
6. Mr. Oswald, like a number of others at the TSBD, played his part----------in his case, right up to and including signaling in the form of flag-waving as Pres. Kennedy was passing.
7. However, as soon as he learned to his horror that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, he knew he was in deepest trouble. The false-flag operation had turned into an actual assassination of the very man who had greenlit the false-flag operation. And Mr. Oswald would be exposed by name, because that had been baked into the false-flag plan.
8. He ended up making his way to the Texas Theatre to meet a contact he was told would be there. But his goose was already cooked. To his great credit, he never broke cover even under the unimaginable stress of arrest & interrogation. Right up to the end, he hoped for rescue by those he had served. But instead he got a bullet from Mr. Jack Ruby.
9. The assassination came as a complete shock to all those who had (like Mr. Oswald) taken part in good faith in 'Conspiracy A' (the false-flag operation). They found themselves horribly exposed.
10. Those in the TSBD (Messrs. Truly, Shelley et al.), who had been on the same team as Mr. Oswald, had no choice but to hang him out to dry.
11. The Kennedy loyalists (incl. Mr. Robert Kennedy) were in an impossible situation. The last thing they could afford-----------for their own sakes as well as for the sake of Pres. Kennedy's memory----------would be for the true facts behind the assassination to come out. And so, in order to cover up the ethically and politically abhorrent (and utterly reckless) false-flag operation, they gave full backing to the truly absurd LN theory. Mr. Robert Kennedy even meddled in the autopsy ('on behalf of the family'.) A real investigation would be apocalyptic for all concerned. Under no circumstances could the world know that Pres. Kennedy had gone into Dealey Plaza expecting to hear gunfire.
12. Of course, the complete post-assassination paralysis of ALL those behind the false-flag operation had been factored in by those behind 'Conspiracy B' (the actual assassination plot, which piggybacked on 'Conspiracy A').

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

“It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody could do.”
(Pres. John F. Kennedy, morning of 11/22/63


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 05, 2023, 10:59:45 PM
Friends, I inadvertently deleted all but one snippet of my last post but two. (Note to self: the MODIFY button works different to the QUOTE button!)

Here again are the basic points covered in that deleted post, in which I summarized the conclusions I have come to based on the available evidence:

1. Mr. Oswald signed up for participation in a White House-approved off-books false flag incident to involve deliberate misses from the TSBD.
2. This shockingly provocative action would be blamed on pro-Castro elements.
3. The point of the staged missed-shots incident: to serve as pretext for C-Day (12/1/63)
4. Mr. Oswald--------a 'known' pro-Castro troublemaker but in actuality a govt. asset---------would become the public face/name of the outrage, the inside man at the TSBD who helped make it all happen. There would be evidence pointing to his involvement (though NOT as gunman), which fact would allow the incident to be sold to the public as a pro-Castro provocation.
5. Mr. Oswald signed up to play this role. He expected to be whisked away from Dallas (perhaps flown out of Redbird?), in all probability never to see his wife & children again. The world would be told that he had fled to Cuba.
6. Mr. Oswald, like a number of others at the TSBD, played his part----------in his case, right up to and including signaling in the form of flag-waving as Pres. Kennedy was passing.
7. However, as soon as he learned to his horror that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, he knew he was in deepest trouble. The false-flag operation had turned into an actual assassination of the very man who had greenlit the false-flag operation. And Mr. Oswald would be exposed by name, because that had been baked into the false-flag plan.
8. He ended up making his way to the Texas Theatre to meet a contact he was told would be there. But his goose was already cooked. To his great credit, he never broke cover even under the unimaginable stress of arrest & interrogation. Right up to the end, he hoped for rescue by those he had served. But instead he got a bullet from Mr. Jack Ruby.
9. The assassination came as a complete shock to all those who had (like Mr. Oswald) taken part in good faith in 'Conspiracy A' (the false-flag operation). They found themselves horribly exposed.
10. Those in the TSBD (Messrs. Truly, Shelley et al.), who had been on the same team as Mr. Oswald, had no choice but to hang him out to dry.
11. The Kennedy loyalists (incl. Mr. Robert Kennedy) were in an impossible situation. The last thing they could afford-----------for their own sakes as well as for the sake of Pres. Kennedy's memory----------would be for the true facts behind the assassination to come out. And so, in order to cover up the ethically and politically abhorrent (and utterly reckless) false-flag operation, they gave full backing to the truly absurd LN theory. Mr. Robert Kennedy even meddled in the autopsy ('on behalf of the family'.) A real investigation would be apocalyptic for all concerned. Under no circumstances could the world know that Pres. Kennedy had gone into Dealey Plaza expecting to hear gunfire.
12. Of course, the complete post-assassination paralysis of ALL those behind the false-flag operation had been factored in by those behind 'Conspiracy B' (the actual assassination plot, which piggybacked on 'Conspiracy A').

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

“It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody could do.”
(Pres. John F. Kennedy, morning of 11/22/63


What happened to your multi-racial assassination death squad [MADS] wandering around the TSBD building?
Is that out of the window, like your utterly deluded belief that "Prayerman" was Oswald?
So, now rather than just sliding into the shadows where he might be unnoticed, Oswald is front and centre of the TSBD steps waving a flag with "Viva Cuba" on it, held up by the curtain rods he got from the Paines garage?

Clearly, the years you have spent defending the Prayerman horsespombleprofglidnoctobuns have taken their toll on you.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 05, 2023, 11:14:56 PM
What happened to your multi-racial assassination death squad [MADS] wandering around the TSBD building?

You mean the external flooring crew Mr. Harold Norman spoke about? They were part of the false-flag operation based on the sixth floor, duh.

Quote
Is that out of the window, like your utterly deluded belief that "Prayerman" was Oswald?
So, now rather than just sliding into the shadows where he might be unnoticed, Oswald is front and centre of the TSBD steps waving a flag with "Viva Cuba" on it, held up by the curtain rods he got from the Paines garage?

Clearly, the years you have spent defending the Prayerman horsespombleprofglidnoctobuns have taken their toll on you.

How's your 'Dougherty Done It!' theory coming on, Mr. O'Meara?

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 06, 2023, 01:49:39 AM
4. Mr. Oswald--------a 'known' pro-Castro troublemaker but in actuality a govt. asset---------would become the public face/name of the outrage, the inside man at the TSBD who helped make it all happen. There would be evidence pointing to his involvement (though NOT as gunman), which fact would allow the incident to be sold to the public as a pro-Castro provocation.

I believe this evidence would have included something Mr. Oswald was to leave by the front entrance just after the (non-lethal) incident. Something political. A signature of sorts.

But Mr. Shelley (who had been working on the same false-flag operation with Mr. Oswald) dashed off the steps just after the shooting and bumped into Ms. Gloria Calvery out by the corner of the grassy area. She told him Pres. Kennedy had been shot.

Mr. Shelley is in shock. What does he do? He stops Mr. Oswald from leaving behind the something by the front entrance.

And what does Mr. Shelley, now in panicked damage limitation mode, do with that something? Why, he walks away with it in his arms, to dispose of it somewhere south of the hot zone:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vm43hRcq/Man-in-Hughes1-arrow.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz4PsqMR/Man-in-Hughes2-arrow.jpg)

The only thing left by the front entrance is the bag in which the something had been carried. It has been picked up by a woman who saw the strange Oswald-Shelley exchange:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)

(This bag will later, absurdly, be presented to the world as having been found by the SN window. No: the first officer to see it is Officer Marion L. Baker, whom the Darnell film shows running towards it.)

Mr. Oswald, meanwhile, re-enters the building. His Plan A (leave Dealey Plaza at once) has been trumped by the shocking news Mr. Shelley has told him about Pres. Kennedy. He now needs to take care of something else of an evidentiary nature that is inside the building.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 06, 2023, 01:58:52 AM
Mr. Oswald, meanwhile, re-enters the building. His Plan A (leave Dealey Plaza at once) has been trumped by the shocking news Mr. Shelley has told him about Pres. Kennedy. He now needs to take care of something else of an evidentiary nature that is inside the building.

A few minutes later, Mr. Oswald is cleared at the front door by Mr. Truly--------------who knows (via Mr. Shelley?) that Mr. Oswald has been told to go meet a contact at the Texas Theatre.

After a decent interval of time, Mr. Truly 'notices' that Mr. Oswald is 'missing'. And he feeds the name of Mr. Oswald-----------his fellow good-faith TSBD facilitator on the false-flag operation------------to the cops. He does this not because he is evil but because he is acting under instruction.

Neither Mr. Truly, Mr. Shelley nor Mr. Oswald came to work this morning with the remotest notion that Pres. Kennedy's life would be in actual danger. They were no more and no less than good-faith patriotic assistants in 'Conspiracy A'------------the White House-sanctioned anti-Communist false-flag operation.

What made Mr. Oswald uniquely vulnerable to damage-limitation scapegoating once the false-flag incident became an actual assassination was the fact that he-------------alone of all the TSBD participants------------had agreed in advance to be blamed post hoc as the TSBD inside man involved in the pro-Castro missed-shots incident. Not even Mr. Oswald's 'pro-Castro' confederates on the sixth floor (the external 'floor-laying crew') would be so vulnerable: they would be out of the building before the cops got near the sixth floor. (In the event, Officer Marion Baker's quick entry complicated matters a little: he met one of that team by the rear stairs------Tan Jacket Man.)

Mr. Oswald was not set up in advance by ANYONE as a shooter, let alone as a lone nut shooter. Mr. Oswald was ASSIGNED the role of confederate in 'Conspiracy A', not the role of gunman. And 'Conspiracy A' was DESIGNED to look like a conspiracy. That was its whole point.

The ludicrous notion of LHO Acting Alone was ENTIRELY the invention of the 'investigation'. And the tone of that 'investigation' was set very early on by Deputy Attorney General, and JFK ultra-loyalist, Mr. Nicholas Katzenbach:

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

Those who had designed something that would look like a pro-Castro provocation conspiracy, now-----------in the wake of their non-lethal false-flag operation having been trumped by an actual assassination-----------simply HAD to push the opposite line: 'Oswald and Oswald alone'.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 06, 2023, 02:55:32 AM
The ludicrous notion of LHO Acting Alone was ENTIRELY the invention of the 'investigation'. And the tone of that 'investigation' was set very early on by Deputy Attorney General, and JFK ultra-loyalist, Mr. Nicholas Katzenbach:

The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

Those who had designed something that would look like a pro-Castro conspiracy, now-----------in the wake of their non-lethal false-flag operation having been trumped by an actual assassination-----------simply HAD to push the opposite line: 'Oswald and Oswald alone'.

However!

That would not be the end of the story, if Mr. Robert Kennedy had anything to do with it. As a (the?) prime architect of the false-flag operation, he knew that a genuine fact-finding official investigation would be anathema. And so he had to bide his time. He publicly endorsed the ridiculous findings of the Warren Commission. But he was determined to identify, and take revenge on, whoever had murdered his brother. The only way was under-the-radar inquiry and investigation, not anything the public would see. If elected President at some point in the future, he would be in a position to take things to the next level.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 06, 2023, 03:08:26 AM
However!

That would not be the end of the story, if Mr. Robert Kennedy had anything to do with it. As a (the?) prime architect of the false-flag operation, he knew that a genuine fact-finding official investigation would be anathema. And so he had to bide his time. He publicly endorsed the ridiculous findings of the Warren Commission. But he was determined to identify, and take revenge on, whoever had murdered his brother. The only way was under-the-radar inquiry and investigation, not anything the public would see. If elected President at some point in the future, he would be in a position to take things to the next level.

Thus is resolved the hitherto baffling paradox of post-JFK-assassination Mr. Robert Kennedy:
1. A man who plays a key role in the cover-up of his brother's murder
2. A man who passionately wants to get to the bottom of his brother's murder.

Grief, guilt------------------and rage
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 07, 2023, 03:29:37 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBtTR8D9/Shelley-18-March-Lovelady-seated.jpg)[/url]

Mr. Shelley tells this to FBI on 18 March 1964.

I suspect Mr. Lovelady may indeed have been seated in the doorway as Pres. Kennedy was passing. His view, however, was suddenly obscured by the energetic waving of a flag by his co-worker, Mr. Lee Oswald. An irritated Mr. Lovelady rises to his feet to see over the flag.

This would explain the fact that a standing Mr. Lovelady is not evident in Towner but is visible in the LATER Bell frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnSmY2RW/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

Bell may be showing him JUST after rising to his feet.

If so, then Mr. Lovelady may not have been as in the loop on things as I previously supposed
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 07, 2023, 03:42:48 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnSmY2RW/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

One thing that has puzzled me is the squareness of Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt here. Very different to the V-shape we see elsewhere.

Could it in fact be the flag itself, which Mr. Oswald is waving just in front of Mr. Lovelady?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 07, 2023, 04:02:21 AM
I think I see what Mr.Ford sees, that white element appears to me to rather SQUARE!

And it’s BETWEEN the two reddish blobs and the right edge of that white square does appear to be slightly obscuring part of the reddish blob that right and slightly higher than the left reddish blob.

That right side reddish blob is pretty much where Lovelady was when he was NEXT to Sarah Stanton ( white shirt mass blob with both hands raised to shade her face in the Altgens 6 photo).

So this white square is either a banner or flag and I’m wondering if it meant “surrender” as in a symbolic gesture like Umbrella man was supposedly suggesting “appeasement” opening the black umbrella?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 07, 2023, 04:08:31 AM
I think I see what Mr.Ford sees, that white element appears to me to rather SQUARE!

And it’s BETWEEN the two reddish blobs and the right edge of that white square does appear to be slightly obscuring part of the reddish blob that right and slightly higher than the left reddish blob.

That right side reddish blob is pretty much where Lovelady was when he was NEXT to Sarah Stanton ( white shirt mass blob with both hands raised to shade her face in the Altgens 6 photo).

So this white square is either a banner or flag and I’m wondering if it meant “surrender” as in a symbolic gesture like Umbrella man was supposedly suggesting “appeasement” opening the black umbrella?

It may be a fluke that is generating an optical illusion, Mr. Mason------------the flag just chances to be positioned right in front of the area where Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt would be visible. The eye is tricked into 'reading' the white as Mr. Lovelady's tshirt. The movement of the foliage only strengthens the optical illusion: as it gets out of the way, there seems to be revealed nothing but Lovelady-in-motion, all elements of his body moving as one. The eye does not realize that the white is independent of the body, and was there BEFORE the Lovelady shirt behind it moved into position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 07, 2023, 04:16:20 AM
It is usually put forward as a discussion-ending defeater of the 'LHO in the Doorway' claim that no one said afterwards they saw LHO in the doorway.

Okey dokey. I have a question.

How many people afterwards said they saw a flag being waved energetically in the doorway? And yet it's plainly there in Towner.

Open your eyes: the collective blindness to the flag is INTIMATELY RELATED to the collective blindness to Mr. Oswald's presence. Because you can't say 'I saw a flag being waved' without risking the follow-up question, 'Who was waving it?' And it's not as though there's gonna be a bunch of people on that side of the doorway for you to pick from.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 07, 2023, 04:45:30 AM
6. Mr. Oswald, like a number of others at the TSBD, played his part----------in his case, right up to and including signaling in the form of flag-waving as Pres. Kennedy was passing.

Which brings us to the famous exchange with the reporter:

REPORTER: Did you shoot the President?
Mr. OSWALD: I work in that building.
REPORTER: Were you in the building at the time?
Mr. OSWALD: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.


This is presented as the other great defeater of the 'LHO in the Doorway' claim. LHO himself denied having gone outside, so it takes a special brand of crazy to claim he actually went outside!

This defeater suffered a disastrous defeat back in 2019 when it was revealed from Agent Hosty's unearthed (by Mr. Bart Kamp) 11/22 draft interrogation report that Mr. Oswald actually told Captain Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. Parade". Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps has been playing defense ever since.

So why did Mr. Oswald say what he said to the reporter? Why did he not just repeat the claim we know he was making in interrogation: I was outside on the front steps?

Some have argued that he may have somehow misunderstood the question and its terms of reference. Others (like myself) that he reasonably took the enclosed entranceway to be part of the building, such that to be standing on the front steps was to be still technically 'in the building'.

My false-flag theory of Mr. Oswald's true loyal-footsoldier role in the events of 11/22/63, however, offers an alternative way of explaining why he said what he said to the reporter:

Mr. Oswald did not want to state in public that he had gone out front, because he did not want his flag-waving (and what followed it [the paper sack disposal]) to become publicly known. He was doing everything he humanly could to disclaim ANY involvement in the disaster. Not knowing that he was being presented to the world as a LONE NUT GUNMAN, he was trying desperately to keep his cover AND protect himself and others from a CONSPIRACY charge. Last thing he needed was TSBD witnesses coming forward and saying, 'Yeah, he was on the steps. But he did the darndest thing out there........' And so here, pressed by a reporter, he avoids all specificity as to location, even to the point of outright misdirection, in his response. He is deflecting the unwelcome question.

We see Mr. Oswald's having been on the front steps as a mark of his innocence (which of course it is). Innocence of having shot Pres. Kennedy.
For Mr. Oswald, by contrast, his having been on the front steps, and what he did there, was a giveaway as to his having played a role in what he knew was meant to be a false-flag stunt but what had turned into something far more sinister. Guilt of having been involved in the events of Dealey Plaza.

GOING IN, Mr. Oswald was willing to incriminate himself as a member of the 'pro-Castro' provocation team; AFTERWARDS, with that provocation having eventuated in an actual assassination, that voluntary self-incrimination came back to haunt him. Least worst option? Bluff his way with an "I don't know what this is all about" schtick.

He didn't shoot Pres. Kennedy; he wasn't a conspirator in the shooting of Pres. Kennedy; but he was heavily involved in a different---------non-lethal---------JFK-sanctioned----------conspiracy. All the things that had promised to make him the perfect named conspirator in the false-flag stunt (Soviet defection, pro-Castro pronouncements, behavior with the flag in the doorway, etc. etc.) now left him impossibly trapped.

The man who gave the reply to the reporter about his whereabouts at the time of the shooting was a man hopelessly, horribly compromised.

He tells Captain Fritz he simply went outside to watch the P. Parade, mentioning nothing about the flag.
When in public, and asked by a reporter, he avoids making reference to the fact that he was in the doorway.
He doesn't want 'Oswald in the doorway' becoming a public talking-point.

This, I believe, offers a coherent solution to the riddle: Why did LHO say one thing to Fritz and another to the reporter?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2023, 08:13:57 PM
Lovelady never said that Stanton was standing in the prayerman spot.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 08, 2023, 07:06:08 PM
6. Mr. Oswald, like a number of others at the TSBD, played his part----------in his case, right up to and including signaling in the form of flag-waving as Pres. Kennedy was passing.
7. However, as soon as he learned to his horror that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, he knew he was in deepest trouble. The false-flag operation had turned into an actual assassination of the very man who had greenlit the false-flag operation.

Put yourselves in Mr. Oswald's shoes here in these seconds. He is wondering how the hell this could have happened. Did somebody coincidentally happen to choose to shoot Pres. Kennedy at the same location (Elm St) that was chosen for the White House-sanctioned false-flag stunt? Or did somebody on the sixth floor false-flag team go rogue and actually fire on Pres. Kennedy? Or was Mr. Oswald tricked into involvement from the start? Or did the plan for the false-flag operation leak and get hijacked by anti-JFK conspirators at a later point? And where did the shot(s) that hit Pres. Kennedy even come from?

Mr. Oswald is completely in the dark.

"Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers."

Did Mr. Oswald go up to the sixth floor and straight to the SN in order to try and ascertain what the hell had happened?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 08, 2023, 11:18:02 PM
1. A rifle found on the sixth floor was traced, via the name 'Alex Hidell' and via fingerprint evidence, to Lee Harvey Oswald, known Castro sympathizer

2. The fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald, known Castro sympathizer, were found on a box in the Sniper's Nest

3. The fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald, known Castro sympathizer, were found on the paper sack

4. After the assassination, known Castro sympathizer Lee Harvey Oswald acted like a guilty man on the run

5. On the morning of the assassination, known Castro sympathizer Lee Harvey Oswald left his wedding ring behind by his sleeping wife's bed

6. Photos showing known Castro sympathizer Lee Harvey Oswald posing with rifle and pistol and leftist newspapers emerged after the assassination

These are just six examples of Warren Gullible articles of faith, recited ad nauseam as damning evidence of Mr. Oswald's guilt as assassin.

Let's, for the sake of argument and thought experiment, admit all six claims without quibble. Let's say to the Warren Gullibles, 'Okay, you win, all these things are true'.

Where would that leave us?

With evidence that is compatible with the theory that Mr. Oswald was indeed the sixth-floor shooter? Sure.

But also: with evidence that is as least as compatible with the false-flag theory I have proposed.

And after that? Things only get worse and worse and worse for the Warren Gullibles......................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 09, 2023, 12:22:16 AM
Mr. Fords theoretically is staring to kind of mesh with Doyle’s version of Armstrongs double Oswald theory.

Was The CIA using the double (Harvey) Oswald as sniper on the 6th floor unbeknownst to their  other asset Lee Oswald out on the steps with his eye catching  banner flag symbol (causing JFK to turn his head so sharply in Towner film) ?

All you have to see is the collage of all the photos of Oswald together and there’s one photo which will stand out as obviously NOT Oswald because the eye nose mouth geometry is clearly different and the nose itself is way too wide to be Oswald’s.

This same odd version of Oswald is coincidentally also the very one which is  the Oswald seen ( in white T shirt) in the company of other USMC “recruits” whom  may be Alpha 66 members.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2023, 07:37:29 AM
Mr. Fords theoretically is staring to kind of mesh with Doyle’s version of Armstrongs double Oswald theory.

~Sigh~

No, it isn't!

My money is on this guy as the man who was firing from the SN window, who was encountered by Officer Baker by the rear stairs, and who shot Officer Tippit and then disappeared down the alley off Patton:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRZX8GYN/Tan-Jacket-Man-Oswald-200.jpg)

Does he resemble Mr. Oswald enough to have left some witnesses confused afterwards? Sure. But that's a world away from the Harvey & Lee stuff.

A plan that includes Mr. Oswald in the doorway waving a flag at the passing Pres. Kennedy is NOT a plan that will simultaneously have Mr. Oswald being impersonated at the SN window. All that is needed is to establish the INVOLVEMENT of the Soviet defector and Castro-supporting Mr. Oswald in the missed-shots provocation. No one would ever know the names of his 'pro-Castro' confederates on the sixth floor. Mr. Oswald had agreed in advance to carry the blame---------as the sole named participant-----------for the missed-shots incident. Once the assassination happened, this left him uniquely vulnerable. Instead of being flown out of Dallas, he ended up being arrested. In interrogation, he could do little more than stonewall with sometimes ridiculous answers ('Yeah, I brought a pistol to the cinema, because I just felt like it'), hoping the while for rescue from those he had served so loyally.

The middle-aged dark-complected man in the bright plaid shirt seen at the SN window by Mr. Arnold Rowland was there for one reason: to be seen and remembered as a guy hanging out at the window while looking Cuban. Had the false-flag operation gone as planned, the press would have run with lurid reports of him, and others, seen on the sixth floor before the motorcade reached Dealey Plaza---------------the pro-Castro team that Castro-loving Marxist Oswald had smuggled onto the sixth floor. And Mr. Oswald's flag-waving from the doorway would have been presented as a taunting gesture to Pres. Kennedy.

This was all about generating a pretext for C-Day (12/1/63). Public outrage. A shocking provocation justifying a robust response.

When the planned false-flag stunt was trumped by an actual assassination, however, all this stuff had to be shut down. Mr. Oswald had to be taken out of the doorway. And a witness like Mr. Rowland had to be discredited by any means necessary.

Mr. Oswald, in short, did not need to be incriminated behind his back by any impersonator. He incriminated himself willingly as a confederate in the ostensible pro-Castro provocation-----------that was an essential component of the false-flag deal.

He may even have been the man who hitched a lift from Mr. Ralph Yates a couple of days before the shooting. Given that the TSBD was facilitating the false-flag operation, all post-11/22 assurances from them that Mr. Oswald was at work at that time are less than solid. If they were working with him to facilitate the false-flag incident, he would have been given all latitude to quietly come and go as he needed. Had the false-flag incident gone as planned (i.e. non-lethally), Mr. Truly might well have been telling reporters about Mr. Oswald's having come to work late that Wednesday morning. 'I was surprised, but didn't give it too much thought at the time.'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2023, 05:09:10 PM
My money is on this guy as the man who was firing from the SN window, who was encountered by Officer Baker by the rear stairs, and who shot Officer Tippit and then disappeared down the alley off Patton:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRZX8GYN/Tan-Jacket-Man-Oswald-200.jpg)

But why would he have shot Officer Tippit? That death is one of the most intractable mysteries in the case.

Let us explore speculatively.

Let us assume that Tan Jacket Man, just like Mr. Oswald, was a good-faith actor in the planned, White House-sanctioned false-flag operation. A member of the 'external flooring crew'. And let's say he too did his job, i.e. from the SN window he fired and deliberately missed.

Ok. Now let us do with this man what we did with Mr. Oswald in a recent post. Let us put ourselves in his shoes the moment he realizes or learns to his horror that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit. This was NOT part of the plan.

He is left wondering how the hell this could have happened. Did somebody coincidentally happen to choose to shoot Pres. Kennedy at the same location (Elm St) that was chosen for the White House-sanctioned false-flag stunt? Or was Mr. Oswald he tricked into involvement from the start? Or did the plan for the false-flag operation leak and get hijacked by anti-JFK conspirators at a later point? And where did the shot(s) that hit Pres. Kennedy even come from?

Mr. Oswald Tan Jacket Man is completely in the dark.

On his way downstairs he is caught by a police officer. He manages----------with the help of Mr. Truly----------to get out of this situation, but as he exits the building he knows that he has been seen at close quarters by an officer. This was NOT part of the plan either.

A little later, he is (for whatever reason) on Tenth. A police officer in a car pulls him over (for whatever reason). Tan Jacket Man, imagining that a detailed description of him and his clothing will have gone out on police radio, based on the officer encounter by the rear stairs in the Depository, assumes the worst and panics. He shoots the officer. Then he flees the scene, turning on to Patton and then running down the alley off Patton.

Unlike Mr. Oswald, he will never be apprehended.

The Tippit killing is pinned on Mr. Oswald, to whom he bears enough of a resemblance to confuse witnesses afterwards.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2023, 05:27:51 PM
This was all about generating a pretext for C-Day (12/1/63). Public outrage. A shocking provocation justifying a robust response.

Mr. Sergio Carbo, AP Correspondent in Miami, 11/19/63:

"I believe that a coming serious event will oblige Washington to change its policy of peaceful co-existence [with Cuba]"

The "coming serious event" to which the indiscreet Mr. Carbo was obliquely referring was not the assassination but the 'pro-Castro' provocation in Dealey Plaza.

And its point wasn't to "oblige" Pres. Kennedy to anything. That was just choreography. It was designed to give Pres. Kennedy the pretext he needed.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2023, 06:05:41 PM
Mr. Sergio Carbo, AP Correspondent in Miami, 11/19/63:

"I believe that a coming serious event will oblige Washington to change its policy of peaceful co-existence [with Cuba]"

The "coming serious event" to which the indiscreet Mr. Carbo was obliquely referring was not the assassination but the 'pro-Castro' provocation in Dealey Plaza.

What Was Supposed to Happen: A grim-but-resolute-looking Pres. Kennedy arrives at the Trade Mart, and weaves into his speech a carefully rehearsed off-the-cuff and non-committal remark about what just happened back in Dealey Plaza. As the hours pass, however, and the known pro-Castro sympathizer Mr. Oswald's name comes into circulation, the public is left in no doubt whatsoever that the White House does not propose to let this shockingly provocative stunt go unanswered. On Dec 1, the answer comes.

What Happened: Pres. Kennedy never makes it to the Trade Mart. His team is left shellshocked, grief-stricken------and scrambling to avoid the public thinking this had anything whatsoever to do with Cuba.

This disposes, I believe, of the stock Warren Gullible objection: 'If dark powerful anti-Castro forces were behind the assassination, and wanted to provoke an invasion, why did no invasion follow?'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 09, 2023, 06:45:15 PM
What Happened: Pres. Kennedy never makes it to the Trade Mart. His team is left shellshocked, grief-stricken------and scrambling to avoid the public thinking this had anything whatsoever to do with Cuba.

And thus it is we get what is perhaps the single most bizarre part of the Warren Commission account of the assassination: LHO was a LONE NUT. His motive cannot be established.

Mr. Oswald-----------who was chosen for his designated role in the false-flag operation precisely because of his distinctive pro-Castro political profile-------------must now be de-politicized as the assassin. All the things that made him a perfect participant in Conspiracy A (the false-flag event) now make him a disastrous person to play the role of Assassin Acting Alone. But they have to go with him after all the work that went into tying him into Conspiracy A.

What an unholy mess!

And the reductio ad absurdum of this claptrap is delivered by those of today's Warren Gullibles who debase their own dignity to the point of trying to convince us that the man who vehemently and loudly protested his innocence had committed the crime for--------------fame and recognition in the history books!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 10, 2023, 11:16:41 PM
And thus it is we get what is perhaps the single most bizarre part of the Warren Commission account of the assassination: LHO was a LONE NUT. His motive cannot be established.

Mr. Oswald-----------who was chosen for his designated role in the false-flag operation precisely because of his distinctive pro-Castro political profile-------------must now be de-politicized as the assassin. All the things that made him a perfect participant in Conspiracy A (the false-flag event) now make him a disastrous person to play the role of Assassin Acting Alone.

Mr. Oswald, meanwhile, must protest his innocence to reporters by politicizing his ARREST: "They've taken me in because of the fact that I worked in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!"

Given how he has ended up in this desperate situation, there is actually some truth to his words: his political profile is the real reason he's here.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 13, 2023, 10:40:52 PM
He may even have been the man who hitched a lift from Mr. Ralph Yates a couple of days before the shooting. Given that the TSBD was facilitating the false-flag operation, all post-11/22 assurances from them that Mr. Oswald was at work at that time are less than solid. If they were working with him to facilitate the false-flag incident, he would have been given all latitude to quietly come and go as he needed. Had the false-flag incident gone as planned (i.e. non-lethally), Mr. Truly might well have been telling reporters about Mr. Oswald's having come to work late that Wednesday morning. 'I was surprised, but didn't give it too much thought at the time.'

This would equally hold, of course, for the Oswald sighting at Dobbs House snack bar----------a half hour earlier on that Wednesday morning.

The only reason for doubting this multiply-witnessed event has always been the assurance from the TSBD side that Mr. Oswald came to work at the normal time that morning
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 13, 2023, 10:55:44 PM
A plan that includes Mr. Oswald in the doorway waving a flag at the passing Pres. Kennedy is NOT a plan that will simultaneously have Mr. Oswald being impersonated at the SN window. All that is needed is to establish the INVOLVEMENT of the Soviet defector and Castro-supporting Mr. Oswald in the missed-shots provocation.

And, thanks to Officer J. W. Foster, Mr. Eugene Aldredge and others, there can be no serious doubt that there WERE indeed missed shots fired that day. This is important, as it suggests that whoever fired from the sixth floor dutifully performed their part of the false-flag operation
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 13, 2023, 11:07:03 PM
'Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!"'
----Assistant S.A. Roy Kellerman


Pres. Kennedy went onto Elm St. expecting to hear gunfire. But he hadn't expected this. His choice of words is telling: these words express not just his physical pain but his utter shock that the pre-arranged firing of shots has resulted in his being hit
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 14, 2023, 02:24:39 PM
And, thanks to Officer J. W. Foster, Mr. Eugene Aldredge and others, there can be no serious doubt that there WERE indeed missed shots fired that day. This is important, as it suggests that whoever fired from the sixth floor dutifully performed their part of the false-flag operation

Mrs. Donald Baker:

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard the first shot; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it


Mr. Royce Skelton:

After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots I heard, but one of them--I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet--I take for granted it was--- hit in the left front of the President's car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it

Sgt. Stavis Ellis:

Then I looked back toward the President. They had made it around the corner off Houston and were now headed west on Elm in my direction. They had passed the worst of the crowding, and were then coming more into the open, but they were moving real slowly. That's when the first shot was fired. I was looking directly at the President, and I saw the concrete burst into a cloud of dust when that bullet hit the curb

Missed shots + On-Target Shots = Shooters in Dealey Plaza With Entirely Different Intents = Conspiracy A (false-flag) + Conspiracy B (assassination)

Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald was a witting participant in Conspiracy A: like whoever was firing deliberate misses from the SN window, he was working ultimately for Pres. Kennedy.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 14, 2023, 10:11:14 PM
Thus is resolved the hitherto baffling paradox of post-JFK-assassination Mr. Robert Kennedy:
1. A man who plays a key role in the cover-up of his brother's murder
2. A man who passionately wants to get to the bottom of his brother's murder.

Grief, guilt------------------and rage

Mr. David Talbot writes:

'Journalist Jack Newfield, a close friend of RFK, told me: “With that amazing computer brain of his, he put it all together on the afternoon of November 22”'

Ask yourself a simple question: How? How on earth was Mr. Robert Kennedy able to work out so quickly that this was not the work of some random crazy, say, or a leftist conspiracy, or a local right-wing Bircher plot? He was many miles away from the event, with only sketchy details coming in, and yet here he was knowing that it was none of these things.

The answer is easy. He had been expecting to hear about an outrageous and shocking but unsuccessful ATTEMPT on his brother's life-----------because he had been central to the planning of just such a false-flag incident. As soon as he got the news that his brother had actually been hit in Dealey Plaza, he was able to draw certain logical conclusions as to who might be ruled in, and who out. No 'amazing computer brain' needed.

Agonizingly, he was not able to go public with these painfully obvious inferences, because he (no less than his now late brother) was deeply implicated in the clandestine arrangements that had opened the door to this horrifying event.

And so he had no choice but to go along------------for now------------with the profoundly unjust scapegoating of one of his own team's loyal footsoldiers, Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2023, 06:00:14 AM
This is getting so complicated
an alternative CT theoretically that I respectfully ( cause I like Mr Fords ability to think outside the circle , box or any other closed figures) , have to suggest perhaps we’ve been misled to abandon PM=Oswald  too quickly merely by the introduction of a newer Darnell version of PM that’s weirdly MORE distorted than the 2013 (the version which looks more like Oswald.)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 15, 2023, 06:59:15 AM
This is getting so complicated

On the contrary, the false-flag solution I have offered makes things much simpler, clarifying at a stroke some previously mystifying aspects of the assassination

Quote
an alternative CT theoretically that I respectfully ( cause I like Mr Fords ability to think outside the circle , box or any other closed figures) , have to suggest perhaps we’ve been misled to abandon PM=Oswald  too quickly merely by the introduction of a newer Darnell version of PM that’s weirdly MORE distorted than the 2013 (the version which looks more like Oswald.)

PM in Darnell is not Mr. Oswald, who is no longer on the steps by this point. Those who pushed PM=LHO were much, much closer to the truth than those who dismissed the very idea from the get-go. But the continued obsession of some with PM in Darnell is no more productive than was the continued obsessive pushing, well after the claim had been refuted, of Altgens Doorwayman as LHO.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 15, 2023, 12:18:21 PM
On the contrary, the false-flag solution I have offered makes things much simpler, clarifying at a stroke some previously mystifying aspects of the assassination

PM in Darnell is not Mr. Oswald, who is no longer on the steps by this point. Those who pushed PM=LHO were much, much closer to the truth than those who dismissed the very idea from the get-go. But the continued obsession of some with PM in Darnell is no more productive than was the continued obsessive pushing, well after the claim had been refuted, of Altgens Doorwayman as LHO.

Hi Alan and Zeon, Oswald's encounter with Ochus Campbell must have been around two or three minutes after the head shot. So him being on the steps still as Prayer Man is right where he should be. I just found Miss Avery Davis to the left of Sarah Stanton. Vickie Adams knew her from the fourth floor girls. Vickie says that she spoke to her and Joe Molina on the stairs and bingo----- we have Vickie, Avery, Joe, and Sandra Styles all together in Darnell on the stairs. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Everybody, I will try to identify as many people in this frame as I can going from the top down.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Darnell_Large_gif_snapshot_001.jpg)



1. On very top---Buell Wesley Frazier
2. Far left--- Lee Harvey Oswald
3. Right of Center---- Joe Molina
4. Lady left of Center--- Maddie Reese
5. Lady on far right with right hand above her head--- Sarah Stanton and to her left Miss Avery Davis
6. Far left under Mr. Oswald--- unknown.
7. Below Maddie Reese is a lady's ankle whose head and body block out Mr. Oswald from the waist down.
8. Right of center immediately--- unknown.
9  Right of center next Sandra Styles and to her right Vicky Adams.
10. Far left there are various unknown people.
11. Left of center under the lady with the ankle is a lady in white--- unknown.
12. Directly under this lady is a lady in black--- Patricia Lawrence.
13. The lady running in the center foreground is Carolyn Arnold.
14. To her right the lady holding the black purse is Jeraldean Reid.
15. The lady to the right of the blonde lady is Bonnie Richey.

Sincerely yours, Michael

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 15, 2023, 12:23:39 PM
Hi Alan and Zeon, Oswald's encounter with Ochus Campbell must have been around two or three minutes after the head shot. So him being on the steps still as Prayer Man is right where he should be. I just found Miss Avery Davis to the left of Sarah Stanton. Vickie Adams knew her from the fourth floor girls. Vickie says that she spoke to her and Joe Molina on the stairs and bingo----- we have Vickie, Avery, Joe, and Sandra Styles all together in Darnell on the stairs.

Sorry, but that's not remotely possible.

And this woman on the landing is not Mr. Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

(Nor------------not that it greatly matters at this stage-------------is she Mrs. Sarah Stanton. She's probably Mrs. Pauline Sanders.)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 15, 2023, 12:30:53 PM
Sorry, but that's not remotely possible.

And this woman on the landing is not Mr. Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

(Nor------------not that it greatly matters at this stage-------------is she Mrs. Sarah Stanton. She's probably Mrs. Pauline Sanders.)

Hi Alan, It is not remotely possible for the ladies to be on both sides of the stairs at once. It is definitely not Pauline Sanders. She is to the left of Frazier! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://thejfktruthmatters.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/detailedframes.jpg?w=1024&h=512)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 15, 2023, 03:41:39 PM
Hi Alan, It is not remotely possible for the ladies to be on both sides of the stairs at once. It is definitely not Pauline Sanders. She is to the left of Frazier!
(https://thejfktruthmatters.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/detailedframes.jpg?w=1024&h=512)

Not this nonsense again ~sigh~

Your 'Sanders'-------------

(https://i.ibb.co/Fb4m2tP/Darnell-face-illusion.jpg)

------------is either a Jack-In-The-Box, or 'her' 'face' is a film artefact, with 'her' 'hairline' a horizontal glitch that appears in only ONE frame:

(https://i.ibb.co/7tqBC3B/Darnell-not-sanders.gif)

And note that 'her' 'skin' is too dark compared to the skin of real people in the sunlight. Explanation: it's just the same background we see in all the other frames where 'she' doesn't appear.

PM in Darnell is not Mr. Oswald. I believe she is Mrs. Sanders. But even if she's not, I don't really care who she is. She's no more intrinsically fascinating than any other woman in the doorway at this time. This 'debate' is a sorry distraction.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 07:57:54 PM
Mr. Sandy Larsen really did wonderful work with this gif:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

Look at Officer Baker in the first frames, and you'll assume he's heading straight for the doorway. But then the actual doorway comes into view. It's quite a jolt.

He's not heading for the doorway at all. Nor is the running woman just a little north-east of him heading for the doorway. They are both heading straight for this woman and what she is holding up:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)

Her reaction to the assassination has been to go over to the mailboxes and pick up a paper sack. She must have just seen something that disturbed her enough to make her do this--------------and to draw attention

Just to reinforce the brilliant observation of Mr. Larsen (and Mr. Bob Prudhomme), the man under the pink arrow here is standing in front of the entranceway. Now look at Officer Baker's route in relation to him:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RV1PQ5JW/Baker-route.gif)

I would give a lot to know who is the lady holding up the long paper sack: Officer Baker is running straight for her................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 08:16:06 PM
I would give a lot to know who is the lady holding up the long paper sack: Officer Baker is running straight for her................

The long paper sack. In front of the TSBD. ~30 seconds after the shooting. An officer dashing over to take a look at it.

No biggie!

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MdDrpzq/Darnell-woman-with-paper-sack.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 08:49:40 PM
And we must return to what's right in front of the lady holding the paper sack:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1ZKPDFM/Darnell-new-frame-flag.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnrcMNDR/Darnell-flag.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMcXVp7R/Darnell-flag-crop.gif)

Where I went wrong with this before was my assumption that this would have to be the FLAG that Mr. Oswald had just waved from the doorway. It's just way too big for that, so I dismissed it.

However..............

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 08:59:14 PM
A false-flag incident involving missed shots fired from the sixth floor. By 'pro-Castro Cubans'. With whom Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald is playing the role of confederate.

OK. What ingredient would put the glace cherry on just such a false-flag provocation? An unmistakable political signature.

Mr. Oswald signals from the doorway to the passing Pres. Kennedy, using a small FLAG. Mr. William Greer, the driver, is watching in the bespoke second mirror for Pres. Kennedy's pre-agreed counter-signal (brushing of hand across his hair). His inattention to the road will lead to his almost running the limousine into the curb..........

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/br4ZjpVt/Altgens7-Ungercrop-mirror.jpg)

As soon as Pres. Kennedy has passed the building, Mr. Oswald leaves the steps with a long paper sack in his (other) hand. He leans over (or kneels down, whatever) and takes a BANNER out of the long paper sack. We catch the tiniest glimpse of his head in Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/htgF7fYt/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-background.jpg)

His strange behavior (unfurling a banner) is noticed by a couple of people out in the line of spectators in front of him:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDyWGzk1/Wiegman-object-in-background-frame-0001-woman.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZLFNpqF/Wiegman-Weisberg-Archive-man.jpg)

Then.............
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 09:13:02 PM
...... Mr. Oswald goes over near the mailboxes and lays out the banner on the sidewalk. It bears a pro-Castro legend. Mr. Oswald dumps the sack too and leaves the spot.

A woman who has noticed him do all this is mighty perturbed. She has just heard shots, and seen pandemonium break loose. And now she's seen a guy laying out a banner.

She runs over and picks up the banner before dropping it again. Then she picks up the paper sack. Then she draws loud attention to her shocking find. Here she is in Darnell, holding up the paper sack and, with her right hand, pointing at the banner on the ground:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnrcMNDR/Darnell-flag.gif)

Officer Marion Baker has seen her and is dashing over to her.

He speaks with the lady and looks at the banner. She tells him the man went into this building by the front door. He throws the banner down, runs into the building and encounters a man in the small storage room that's front of house. He challenges him-----------NOT because he thinks he's the shooter, but because he's chasing up the banner thing.

Mr. Roy Truly, who as building manger of the TSBD has been cooperating with the unofficial false-flag operation, vouches for Mr. Oswald. Officer Baker, believing the shots came from the top of this building, makes a judgement call and cuts the man loose. The banner thing is less of an immediate priority than apprehending the shooter himself.

Mr. Kent Biffle, of the Dallas Morning News, gets wind of this incident (though sans the crucial context) a little later today:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sXNxvgRb/Biffle-storage.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 09:21:03 PM
But what happened to the banner that Officer Baker left behind?

Extraordinarily, it got left there for quite some time, unregarded in all the chaos and crumpled up such that its legend was not visible. At some point someone, making room for folks on the sidewalk, put the street repair objects over it:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvKcpCTj/Skaggs-white-sheet-marked.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 09:24:27 PM
However.............

It finally WAS noticed and picked up, and its significance immediately understood by law enforcement.

I believe this may well be that selfsame banner being carried into the Depository building at a later point:

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm0GSrFq/Flag4.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d02B93g2/Flag3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvkfChyx/Flag5.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 09:33:26 PM
Here's the most crucial point in all of this:

Had the White House-approved false-flag operation gone to plan----------------i.e. had Pres. Kennedy been subjected to no more than the indignity of missed shots as he rode through Dealey Plaza------------------the damning evidence of defector and FPCC agitator Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald's involvement in the outrageous incident would have been all DPD would have talked about. This evidence had been handed them on a plate--------------by Mr. Oswald himself. That was the original plan for how all this would play out!

But the false-flag operation was piggybacked by those with lethal intent against Pres. Kennedy.

Pres. Kennedy was assassinated-------------and Mr. Oswald was left hanging as the only named person who could be reliably linked to the event.

For reasons I have outlined at length in previous recent posts on this thread, everything about the circumstances leading up to Pres. Kennedy's assassination had to be covered up EXCEPT FOR the involvement of Mr. Oswald.

----------------->Exit stage left all the evidence of a pro-Castro conspiracy (incl. of course the banner and the place the paper sack had actually been found).
----------------->Enter stage right the outlandishly absurd Lone Nut theory.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 16, 2023, 11:33:31 PM
However.............

It finally WAS noticed and picked up, and its significance immediately understood by law enforcement.

Street works barriers-----------------banner gone

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJ8mhgjg/Street-works-barrier.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 16, 2023, 11:38:59 PM
Wonder if there’s a black Nazi swastika on that white flag/sheet that Fritz is carrying?

After all,  Oswald was  supposedly a “Hunter of Fascists” and  had indirectly hinted that General Walker was another Hitler  according to Marina.

Maybe that large squarish white blob in the Towner film?.. is the banner  Fritz is carrying?

There’s not enough film to show the banner completely unfurled beyond  white squarish blob, so a symbol,  or word could be obscured by part of the banner itself.

Why didn’t Fritz enter this white flag/banner into evidence?

Simple answer is that it was too risky to do since it exonerates Oswald of being the TSBD  6th floor gunman.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 08:10:08 AM
But why on earth---------------one might ask----------------did Officer Baker not draw anyone's attention to the banner out on the sidewalk when he came back downstairs with Mr. Truly?

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwwqcjyY/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif)

I suspect the answer is that, after Mr. Truly vouched for Mr. Oswald at the small storage room on the first floor, Officer Baker simply failed to further pursue any necessary link between it and the shooting. Not knowing this Oswald fellow's background, he just assumed the banner to have been one of several politically hostile signs seen that day. He gave it no more thought afterwards than the 'Go Home Yankee' and 'You're A Traitor' signs at Love Field and along the parade route. The shots had come from up high in the building, and the deployment of a political banner down on the street was no more than a coincidence. So he forgot about it. (He didn't, however, forget about the man in the light brown jacket he had caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up: THAT encounter was to be the focus of his affidavit a few hours later.)

Mr. Oswald, for his part, went into this stunt confident he was unlikely to be arrested on the scene for having a political banner. But he knew that what he had done with it would be remembered, and that his own background as a pro-Castro agitator would come to light in the hours after the assassination-----------------by which time he would be well out of Dallas.

Had the JFK-approved 'Conspiracy A' gone to plan, the American public would have been told all about it in breathless press reports. 'President Kennedy narrowly escaped assassination earlier today as his motorcade rode through downtown Dallas. Witnesses say three shots were fired from the upper window of a book warehouse located along the route. A banner bearing the words 'Viva Fidel!' was found on the scene, reportedly left there by an employee of the warehouse, an ex-Marine named Lee Harvey Oswald, who defected to the Soviet Union before returning to the United States, where he has since been active in pro-Castro circles. Oswald is known to have left the scene shortly after the incident, and is currently being sought by Dallas police.'
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 08:32:31 AM
According to his brother, Mr. Robert Oswald, Mr. Oswald said to him in custody: "Don't believe all the so-called evidence". He knows there's plenty of evidence against him as a confederate in the assassination, because he himself implicated himself in the planned non-lethal false-flag incident.

What he's telling his brother is: The evidence against me doesn't mean what it seems to mean.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 08:45:44 AM
Hi Alan, Here is a picture of Detective Sims bringing his white raincoat back out of the TSBD.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_90ace6c4.jpg)


In this Darnell frame your paper sack appears to be held by a lady with no feet. It could just be a reflection on the second post office box of someone.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Darnell_Large_gif_snapshot_001.jpg)


If you notice in this Skaggs' picture there is a weird distortion of a mostly two legged thing stepping off of the steps of the TSBD. So weird things can happen in this area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvKcpCTj/Skaggs-white-sheet-marked.jpg)


Sincerely yours, Michael



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 08:49:58 AM
Hi Alan, Here is a picture of Detective Sims bringing his white raincoat back out of the TSBD.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 08:54:57 AM
In this Darnell frame your paper sack appears to be held by a lady with no feet. It could just be a reflection on the second post office box of someone.

Huh?

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MdDrpzq/Darnell-woman-with-paper-sack.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 09:00:28 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)

Hi Alan, Yes that is Detective Sims jacket being carried in by him. Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 09:02:02 AM
Hi Alan, Yes that is Detective Sims jacket being carried in by him

Funny looking white raincoat!

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 09:06:05 AM
Huh?

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MdDrpzq/Darnell-woman-with-paper-sack.gif)

Hi Alan, I thought you were talking about the shadow on the second post office box holding up the bag because it is a man with his left arm being covered by the bag thing. He has a bright belt buckle. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 09:13:39 AM
Funny looking white raincoat!

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8zqKJ4Y/Flag2.jpg)

Hi Alan, I do not think all of them were the stiff fabric like now. Did you notice the weird defect in the Skaggs' picture.If you notice in this Skaggs' picture there is a weird distortion of a mostly two legged thing stepping off of the steps of the TSBD. So weird things can happen in this area.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvKcpCTj/Skaggs-white-sheet-marked.jpg)

Sincerely yours, Michael

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 09:14:19 AM
Hi Alan, I thought you were talking about the shadow on the second post office box holding up the bag because it is a man with his left arm being covered by the bag thing. He has a bright belt buckle.

~Shrug~
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 09:15:32 AM
Hi Alan, I do not think all of them were the stiff fabric like now. Did you notice the weird defect in the Skaggs' picture.If you notice in this Skaggs' picture there is a weird distortion of a mostly two legged thing stepping off of the steps of the TSBD. So weird things can happen in this area.

~Shrug~
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 09:31:11 AM
~Shrug~

Hi Alan, Here is Detective Sims' white raincoat where you can see the collar on the bottom. It is a Cook/Cooper frame. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/TSBD6.jpg)
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 10:03:24 AM
Hi Alan, Here is Detective Sims' white raincoat where you can see the collar on the bottom.

No, I can't see that, at all.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 10:13:00 AM
No, I can't see that, at all.

Hi Alan, The collar goes out 90 degrees from the jacket part. It is in a U shape on the bottom. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 10:19:12 AM
Hi Alan, Here is another picture from a different angle in a Cook/Cooper frame. Do you see the bottom collar now? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Don_Cook~0.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 12:29:44 PM
Hi Alan, Here is another picture from a different angle in a Cook/Cooper frame. Do you see the bottom collar now?

Nope.

And "white raincoat", lol

(https://i.postimg.cc/PfcbTXJF/Sims-banner-2tone.gif)
(https://i.ibb.co/10b2YRz/Flag-colors.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 12:54:16 PM
Two-tone:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6BQmq8y/Darnell-new-frame-flag.jpg)

Two-tone:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gj69MGVC/Skaggs-banner.jpg)

Two-tone:

(https://i.ibb.co/10b2YRz/Flag-colors.jpg)

DPD knew full well that this sheet/banner had been stuffed inside the long paper sack. But they disappeared the sheet, and repurposed the sack as what Mr. Oswald had brought the Carcano to work in that morning. In order for this to work, they had to pretend the sack was found up at the SN. Darnell proves they lied about that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 02:17:17 PM
Nope.

And "white raincoat", lol

(https://i.postimg.cc/PfcbTXJF/Sims-banner-2tone.gif)
(https://i.ibb.co/10b2YRz/Flag-colors.jpg)

Hi Alan, Here is an identical white raincoat worn by a Dallas Policeman in an Allen photograph. One side of the collar is black! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_mURI_temp_fc8f1081.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 02:35:55 PM
Hi Alan, Here is an identical white raincoat worn by a Dallas Policeman in an Allen photograph. One side of the collar is black!

Yeah, 'identical' in the sense of totally different.....................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 03:43:17 PM
Yeah, 'identical' in the sense of totally different.....................

Hi Alan, No, identical in the sense of Dallas Police issued raincoats. Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 08:11:59 PM
Hi Alan, No, identical in the sense of Dallas Police issued raincoats.

Well, if you can show us a sample of the fetching two-tone number DPD issued for that season, we're all eyes
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 08:37:37 PM
Well, if you can show us a sample of the fetching two-tone number DPD issued for that season, we're all eyes

Hi Alan, Yes, it would be on the Dallas police man in Allen and on Sims' shoulder. The raincoat is only two-tone on the collar--- one side is white; the other side is black. It is an assumption only at the moment! Have you seen this Parkland picture? Is this your flag/banner or Connally's raincoat. I believe the clothes are from the limo and people in the limo. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_fc908228.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 10:47:43 PM
Hi Alan, Yes, it would be on the Dallas police man in Allen and on Sims' shoulder. The raincoat is only two-tone on the collar--- one side is white; the other side is black. It is an assumption only at the moment! Have you seen this Parkland picture? Is this your flag/banner or Connally's raincoat. I believe the clothes are from the limo and people in the limo.

 ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 10:58:32 PM
Then she picks up the paper sack. Then she draws loud attention to her shocking find. Here she is in Darnell, holding up the paper sack and, with her right hand, pointing at the banner on the ground:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnrcMNDR/Darnell-flag.gif)

There's something on the ground in front of the mailbox, going up as tall as the words 'U.S. MAIL'. Perhaps it belongs to the lady, and she has laid it down to pick up the long paper sack? If so, then it may possibly help us to identify her from prior spectator images

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cNtRF0k/Darnell-new-frame-object-mailbox.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/JnqbWppm/mailboxes.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 17, 2023, 11:28:49 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Darnell_Large_gif_snapshot_004.jpg)

Hi Alan, You see how the bag becomes part of the guy in the suit's head. Is this some film problem? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 17, 2023, 11:58:16 PM
Officer Marion Baker has seen her and is dashing over to her.

He speaks with the lady and looks at the banner. She tells him the man went into this building by the front door.

It seems the front door is moving here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWYPVdb9/Darnell-Unger-doorway.gif)

(Yes, it could move inwards as well as outwards, as demonstrated by Mr. Dan Rather:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfJzQNPd/Rather-Steps.gif)

.)

Now, Mr. Joe Molina gave it as his firm recollection that the very first person to enter the building after the shooting was Mr. Roy Truly. But Darnell would seem to contradict his recollection.

I believe Mr. Oswald himself may have just this second re-entered the building, and is heading (for some reason) to the small storage room at front of house (which we see here with its door open):

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYGmntNT/Storage-Room-campbell.jpg)

Very shortly, he will have an encounter (PERHAPS the first of two) with Officer Baker and Mr. Truly.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2023, 12:09:13 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYGmntNT/Storage-Room-campbell.jpg)

Very shortly, he will have an encounter (PERHAPS the first of two) with Officer Baker and Mr. Truly.

Still one of the classic WC moments:

Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

So it took an 'investigation' to establish what actually happened!

Why is Captain Fritz stumbling so badly here? Because he knows damn well that what he was actually told about was an encounter with a guy in a light brown jacket (not Mr. Oswald) caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up.

The front-of-house storage room encounter with Mr. Oswald: thrown down the memory hole.
The rear stairway encounter with Tan Jacket Man: thrown down the memory hole.
The later front-door encounter between Mr. Oswald, Mr. Truly and Lt. Erich Kaminski: thrown down the memory hole.
Only a lunchroom encounter with Mr. Oswald was acceptable to those trying desperately to take Mr. Oswald off the front steps and up to the SN window.

All the life-or-death 'research' debates about 'Did LHO have a Coke in his hand when Baker challenged him in the lunchroom?' represented a continued victory for the cover-up, because they kept folks from establishing the place he was really seen drinking a Coke:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtgjXpBw/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2023, 09:22:12 PM
Now, Mr. Joe Molina gave it as his firm recollection that the very first person to enter the building after the shooting was Mr. Roy Truly. But Darnell would seem to contradict his recollection.

I believe Mr. Oswald himself may have just this second re-entered the building

Well!

It's an extraordinary thing, but not a SINGLE person (outside the two known fabulators, Messrs. Shelley & Lovelady) saw Mr. Truly and Officer Baker go in the front entrance TOGETHER. We have Mr. Molina remembering Mr. Truly's entrance, and Mrs. Pauline Sanders remembering Officer Baker's. And that's it.

Here's what I think may have happened: they went in SEPARATELY. Mr. Truly went in BEFORE Officer Baker, who spent some time by the mailboxes speaking with the lady about the paper sack & banner. And why did Mr. Truly go inside? To speak with Mr. Oswald, whom he had just seen entering, about the disastrous and shocking turn events had reportedly just taken (false-flag missed-shots incident------------>actual shooting!?!?!). This may indeed have been the moment Mr. Oswald learned that Pres. Kennedy had been hit.

Officer Baker THEN, and only then, goes in the front door. And what does he see there? From his same-day affidavit:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj574JPk/Marrion-Baker-Affidavit-cropped-Truly.jpg)

"A man stepped forward": the wording suggests that this building manager was already inside there--------------he was one of the people Officer Baker found "standing around", and was now stepping forward in response to the officer's request for assistance.

Had the officer just interrupted a tete-a-tete, by the small storage room, between Mr. Truly and a certain manual worker in a reddish-brown shirt?

Later that day, Mr. Truly must dispel any such notion with what reads like a bizarrely gratuitous disavowal of an idea that no one would even think of asking about:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kX97KLGL/Truly-fbi-no-one.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2023, 10:58:55 PM
Apropos----------------perhaps----------------of something:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QVGXpw3Z/Jones-in-Couch-marked.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/TwKL0zZK/Jones-Couch-object.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHCJZk7G/Couch-film.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2023, 11:32:23 PM
There is a tall man, dressed in white, and apparently dark-complected, standing on a lower step by the EAST column, his left elbow out in front of that column:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRKkZjcv/Figure-in-white-east-doorway.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/FFBycZkW/Towner-figure-in-white.gif)

Who is he?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 18, 2023, 11:39:02 PM
Possibly not wholly unrelated question!

Who, amongst all the '411 Elm St.' manual workers, was interviewed by the 'investigating' authorities least?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2023, 10:58:36 AM
There is a tall man, dressed in white, and apparently dark-complected, standing on a lower step by the EAST column, his left elbow out in front of that column:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRKkZjcv/Figure-in-white-east-doorway.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/FFBycZkW/Towner-figure-in-white.gif)

How do we know he's tall? Because he'd need to be no higher than the first step up in order for his left elbow to come out in front of the column like this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/wv9nGft5/Stancak-overhead-east.jpg)

And he's towering over Mrs. Madie Reese
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2023, 11:37:18 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/QVGXpw3Z/Jones-in-Couch-marked.gif)

Pre-motorcade:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJRBWz5h/Hughes-man-Houston-Main.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/k4RHp2qC/Hughes-man-Houston-Main2.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2023, 11:46:19 AM
Pre-motorcade:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJRBWz5h/Hughes-man-Houston-Main.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/k4RHp2qC/Hughes-man-Houston-Main2.jpg)

Cf this fellow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGTywj9S/Carl-Jones-in-Willis.jpg)

Cf this fellow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRKkZjcv/Figure-in-white-east-doorway.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/FFBycZkW/Towner-figure-in-white.gif)

Cf this fellow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHCJZk7G/Couch-film.gif)

Cf this fellow in BLUE:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JcXfnSs/Lovelady-Hughes-longer-frame-0003-blue.jpg)

Mr. BLUE's face ain't there in the version of Altgens shown to the American public by Mr. Walter Cronkite:

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2XvXWGT/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2023, 08:04:45 PM
Cf this fellow in BLUE:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JcXfnSs/Lovelady-Hughes-longer-frame-0003-blue.jpg)

Mr. BLUE's face ain't there in the version of Altgens shown to the American public by Mr. Walter Cronkite:

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2XvXWGT/Cronkite-Altgens-sharp-large.jpg)

Friends, it's an inconvenient fact, but there is unmistakeable BLUE showing in FRONT of Mr. Lovelady in the Bell doorway frames:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCkh0v2D/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

Lengthier, wider clip---------------watch that blue come into view:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0jrhPDp/Bell-doorway-full-blue.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdxxRFTJ/Bell-doorway-full-blue-zoom.gif)


That blue ain't foliage.................. and it sure as heck ain't coming from the clothing of this fellow everyone assumes to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGTywj9S/Carl-Jones-in-Willis.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 21, 2023, 11:31:14 AM
Well!

It's an extraordinary thing, but not a SINGLE person (outside the two known fabulators, Messrs. Shelley & Lovelady) saw Mr. Truly and Officer Baker go in the front entrance TOGETHER. We have Mr. Molina remembering Mr. Truly's entrance, and Mrs. Pauline Sanders remembering Officer Baker's. And that's it.

Here's what I think may have happened: they went in SEPARATELY. Mr. Truly went in BEFORE Officer Baker, who spent some time by the mailboxes speaking with the lady about the paper sack & banner.

This would explain, of course, how Ms. Vicki Adams and Ms. Sandra Styles could have come down the rear stairway without seeing Officer Baker and Mr. Truly
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 23, 2023, 02:01:05 AM
Well the other black guy named Lewis seems to have fuzzy memory of where he was on the steps of the TSBD.

If Lewis had taken off that dark  reddish brown jacket ( which he had  on when he was standing next to the BIG Carl Jones in the off white shirt with shirt pocket bulging)then IDK if the dark blue shirt would register as that light a bluish color or not.

Could it be Lewis who had taken off his reddish brown jacket as the man waving some kind of red something in the foreground of Towner film?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 23, 2023, 10:38:22 AM
Well the other black guy named Lewis seems to have fuzzy memory of where he was on the steps of the TSBD.

If Lewis had taken off that dark  reddish brown jacket ( which he had  on when he was standing next to the BIG Carl Jones in the off white shirt with shirt pocket bulging)then IDK if the dark blue shirt would register as that light a bluish color or not.

Could it be Lewis who had taken off his reddish brown jacket as the man waving some kind of red something in the foreground of Towner film?

I had considered that myself, Mr. Mason. But in Hughes, which shows the doorway just before Towner, we see the man in blue in front of Mr. Oswald raise his left arm to wave--------------and his hand appears to be empty. If he were waving his cardigan-jacket, it would surely be showing up here.............

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2jBHpr3/Lewis-Hughes-arm.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 23, 2023, 07:51:20 PM
Friends, let's leave aside for a moment the identity of the man in blue and focus on a different question:

What do we see when the man in blue's arm is raised?

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2jBHpr3/Lewis-Hughes-arm.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/5ySNrHkM/Hughes-raised-arm.jpg)

In that very small area, ABOVE A CERTAIN HEIGHT and WITHIN A NARROW FRAME, we see diagonal blue (man in blue's raised sleeve) + white (Red Shirt Man's tshirt).

The diagonal blue of the raised arm is covering the portion of the red of Red Shirt Man's red shirt directly behind it. Above and below, however, we see red shirt.

Could this very small area of DIAGONAL BLUE + TSHIRT WHITE ONLY be what these few Bell frames are actually showing? Leaves are covering the portion of red shirt above and below, so we're ONLY seeing diagonal blue + white--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCkh0v2D/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

[Note: For this to work, this rapidly downward movement-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcWDJ1hM/Bell-tshirt-larger-frame-0002-arrow.jpg)

-------------would need to be from a branch belonging to the tree.]

Now! Could the full sequence of Bell doorway frames be showing us--------------BEFORE Mr. Lovelady rises to his feet and the UPPER leaves clear-------------little glimpses of a portion of Mr. Oswald's red shirt that is NOT covered by the blue sleeve but is MOST OF THE TIME covered by the LOWER foliage? Look closely-----when you see what I'm talking about it, it will startle you:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgQkQMjh/Bell-full-150.gif)

Such that, when the foliage clears nicely towards the end of this sequence, we are getting a deceptive admixture of Mr. Oswald's shirt and Mr. Lovelady's shirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJjmT7RJ/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

If so, then the fact that Mr. Lovelady's little eastwards lean after he has risen to his feet COINCIDES with the clearing of the foliage only enhances the illusion that the red belongs entirely to Mr. Lovelady's shirt.

**

If anyone can offer a plausible alternative explanation for the curious fact that Mr. Lovelady emerges from BEHIND the colors BLUE and WHITE, I'm all ears  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 11:12:35 AM
Could this very small area of DIAGONAL BLUE + TSHIRT WHITE ONLY be what these few Bell frames are actually showing? Leaves are covering the portion of red shirt above and below, so we're ONLY seeing diagonal blue + white--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCkh0v2D/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

Now: note how much WHITE tshirt we see in Hughes when Mr. Oswald torques his body a little as he's taking a drink from his Coke:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

Lots and lots of WHITE tshirt. The red shirt's shoulder/collar is all but displaced from view. This upper left part of the red shirt may even be catching a gust of wind here, which is accentuating the increase in visible WHITE from the torquing of Mr. Oswald's body.

If, just moments later, Mr. Oswald torques his body in a similar fashion when he starts waving the flag to his left, then we will be seeing a comparable predominance of white just behind the upraised blue-sleeved arm of the man in front of him. Now imagine what we'd see if we got a simultaneity of all this white tshirt and the diagonally raised blue-sleeved arm just in front of it.

I'll tell you what we'd see: we'd see what Bell shows--------------------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCkh0v2D/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 02:14:38 PM
As I've shown previously in Hughes, when Mr. Oswald lowers his right arm and leans slightly west after drinking from the bottle, interesting reflections appear momentarily in the glass entrance behind him.

YELLOW ARROW: The reflection of Mr. Oswald's right shirt sleeve
PINK ARROW: The reflection of a portion of the flag he is holding behind him in his left hand

(https://i.postimg.cc/yd73TpSd/Hughes-LHO-flag-reflection.gif)

But that's not all. The reflection of the piece of flag (orange arrow below) appears simultaneously with the actual glimpse we get (NOT a reflection) of a higher portion of the flag just behind Mr. Oswald (blue arrow below).

(https://i.postimg.cc/0Nk9WTZL/Hughes-flag-and-reflection.jpg)

Look at these THREE things that appear, just as Mr. Oswald lowers his Coke and leans a little west:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

The fact that the appearance of these three phenomena coincides with Mr. Oswald's movement is no fluke. His movement is what's making them come momentarily into view. All three phenomena belong to him.

We are but a moment away from the flag being whipped out and waved energetically at Pres. Kennedy.....................

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mZVzRGP2/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 24, 2023, 03:06:00 PM
As I've shown previously in Hughes, when Mr. Oswald lowers his right arm and leans slightly west after drinking from the bottle, interesting reflections appear momentarily in the glass entrance behind him.

YELLOW ARROW: The reflection of Mr. Oswald's right shirt sleeve
PINK ARROW: The reflection of a portion of the flag he is holding behind him in his left hand

(https://i.postimg.cc/yd73TpSd/Hughes-LHO-flag-reflection.gif)

But that's not all. The reflection of the piece of flag (orange arrow below) appears simultaneously with the actual glimpse we get (NOT a reflection) of a higher portion of the flag just behind Mr. Oswald (blue arrow below).

(https://i.postimg.cc/0Nk9WTZL/Hughes-flag-and-reflection.jpg)

Look at these THREE things that appear, just as Mr. Oswald lowers his Coke and leans a little west:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

The fact that the appearance of these three phenomena coincides with Mr. Oswald's movement is no fluke. His movement is what's making them come momentarily into view. All three phenomena belong to him.

We are but a moment away from the flag being whipped out and waved energetically at Pres. Kennedy.....................

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mZVzRGP2/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)


We are but a moment away from the flag being whipped out and waved energetically at Pres. Kennedy

Is this little flag you're talking about the same thing as the gigantic "sheet/banner" you refer to earlier?


(https://i.ibb.co/10b2YRz/Flag-colors.jpg)

DPD knew full well that this sheet/banner had been stuffed inside the long paper sack. But they disappeared the sheet, and repurposed the sack as what Mr. Oswald had brought the Carcano to work in that morning. In order for this to work, they had to pretend the sack was found up at the SN. Darnell proves they lied about that.


Is it a little flag or a gigantic banner?
Are you seriously suggesting that Oswald was stood front and centre of the steps waving a gigantic flag and no-one noticed him?
Why isn't the gigantic banner apparent in the Towner film because it would cover half the front steps when 'unfurled'?
And why, if Baker is called over to examine the gigantic banner, is it still lying on the floor some time later?

(https://i.postimg.cc/gj69MGVC/Skaggs-banner.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 03:08:23 PM

We are but a moment away from the flag being whipped out and waved energetically at Pres. Kennedy

Is this little flag you're talking about the same thing as the gigantic "sheet/banner" you refer to earlier?

Nope
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 24, 2023, 05:00:08 PM
Nope

 ;D

So, according to your latest bananas theory Oswald had a flag AND a banner.

Great stuff  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 07:32:15 PM
;D

So, according to your latest bananas theory Oswald had a flag AND a banner.

Great stuff  Thumb1:

~Grin~

'Who cares what Towner shows? Who cares what Darnell shows? Who cares what any of the films show? I refuse to allow Oswald go out on those front steps, and my word is FINAL!'

You're quite the cranky little fanatic, Mr. O'Meara.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 24, 2023, 09:30:39 PM
~Grin~

'Who cares what Towner shows? Who cares what Darnell shows? Who cares what any of the films show? I refuse to allow Oswald go out on those front steps, and my word is FINAL!'

You're quite the cranky little fanatic, Mr. O'Meara.

You were the PM zealot, not me.
And look where that got you.

I've wasted half an hour of my life going through some of the tripe you've been posting recently.
As I understand it, rather than have Oswald sneaking unnoticed into a shadowy corner you now have him front and centre of the front steps waving a flag and then unfurling a gigantic banner right in front of everyone on the steps.

I'm sure I speak for everyone who cannot be bothered dealing with you when I ask - how come not a single person reported seeing Oswald undertaking this bizarre behaviour in plain sight?
Dozens of people must have witnessed this fantastical behaviour but not a single person ever mentions it.
How can that be?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 11:11:10 PM
You were the PM zealot, not me.

I stand by the claim that Mr. Oswald was telling the truth when he told Capt. Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. Parade". I was a heck of a lot closer to the truth than you were, Mr. 'PM=Stanton' 'Dougherty Shot JFK' O'Meara  Thumb1:

Quote
And look where that got you.

I've wasted half an hour of my life going through some of the tripe you've been posting recently.
As I understand it, rather than have Oswald sneaking unnoticed into a shadowy corner you now have him front and centre of the front steps waving a flag and then unfurling a gigantic banner right in front of everyone on the steps.

I'm sure I speak for everyone who cannot be bothered dealing with you when I ask - how come not a single person reported seeing Oswald undertaking this bizarre behaviour in plain sight?
Dozens of people must have witnessed this fantastical behaviour but not a single person ever mentions it.
How can that be?

Dozens of people? Do tell us more
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 24, 2023, 11:24:41 PM
I stand by the claim that Mr. Oswald was telling the truth when he told Capt. Fritz that he "went outside to watch P. Parade"

Do you stand by Kelley's quote when he states Oswald told him he never went saw the parade?
Or Oswald's quote when he says he was in the building at the time of the shooting?

Quote
Dozens of people? Do tell us more

Anyone on or around the front steps of the TSBD.
Why is there no mention of Oswald by anyone when asked if they saw him at the time of the assassination?
Why, if he is doing this in front of all these people, did nobody see him?

Name a single person who can corroborate, even in the most tenuous way, that Oswald was out front waving his flag and unfurling his banner.
Just one person.
There must be one.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 11:32:19 PM
Do you stand by Kelley's quote when he states Oswald told him he never went saw the parade?
Or Oswald's quote when he says he was in the building at the time of the shooting?

I've addressed these points multiple times already. Do your homework before asking dumb questions, Mr. O'Meara

Quote
Anyone on or around the front steps of the TSBD.
Why is there no mention of Oswald by anyone when asked if they saw him at the time of the assassination?
Why, if he is doing this in front of all these people, did nobody see him?

Name a single person who can corroborate, even in the most tenuous way, that Oswald was out front waving his flag and unfurling his banner.
Just one person.
There must be one.

The woman who went over to the mailboxes and picked up the long paper bag, duh.

As for the others, most folks in the doorway (and there weren't 'dozens', lol) were focused on what was happening down the street. And anyone who might have noticed Mr. Oswald's actions would have required extraordinary courage afterwards to go on the record with what they saw. The pressure to fall in line with the official story was immense.

Thankfully, however, the visual record allows us to put together what really happened. You, being embarrassingly inept when it comes to studying the visual record, are incapable of refuting my analysis. And so you huff and puff like the Warren Gullible Lite you are at heart

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 24, 2023, 11:44:54 PM
I've addressed these points multiple times already. Do your homework before asking dumb questions, Mr. O'Meara

Was that when you were having your Prayer Man brain fart?

Quote
The woman who went over to the mailboxes and picked up the long paper bag, duh.

 :D :D :D
I've asked you to NAME a single witness and this is the piss-poor best response you can come up with.

Quote
As for the others, most folks in the doorway (and there weren't 'dozens', lol) were focused on what was happening down the street. And anyone who might have noticed Mr. Oswald's actions would have required extraordinary courage afterwards to go on the record with what they saw. The pressure to fall in line with the official story was immense.

Thankfully, however, the visual record allows us to put together what really happened. You, being embarrassingly inept when it comes to studying the visual record, are incapable of refuting my analysis. And so you huff and puff like the Warren Gullible Lite you are at heart

 Thumb1:

 ::)

Here we go again.
Not a single witness to support your fantasyland nonsense.
Where have we seen that before?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 24, 2023, 11:48:37 PM
Here we go again.
Not a single witness to support your fantasyland nonsense.

~Grin~

I have the visual record to support my analysis. You lack the ability to muster a coherent counter-analysis of that visual record. And so you huff and puff like a jealous little troll
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 25, 2023, 12:06:29 AM
~Grin~

I have the visual record to support my analysis. You lack the ability to muster a coherent counter-analysis of that visual record. And so you huff and puff like a jealous little troll

I have the visual record to support my analysis.

Your utterly bizarre interpretation of a handful of pixels does not count as "support" from the visual record.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2023, 12:09:54 AM
I have the visual record to support my analysis.

Your utterly bizarre interpretation of a handful of pixels does not count as "support" from the visual record.

Well then you'll be able to refute my analysis. Have at it!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 25, 2023, 03:14:25 AM
Seriously, if DPD officer Bakers purpose for running towards the TSBD was because he thought the gunman might be on an upper floor of the building , then his primary goal was to go to the TSBD entrance door, rather than anywhere else.

Perspective lines need  be verified by a computer model before just relying on somebody who drew  2 blue lines overlayed on the Darnell film segment to declare with any certainty that Baker was not heading for the steps.

Even if the perspective lines can be verified, it’s still doubtful Baker would have been distracted enough by some person with a paper , to stop and waste time , rather that continuing his primary goal to find the shooter he suspected was still on an upper floor of the TSBD.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2023, 07:35:22 AM
Seriously, if DPD officer Bakers purpose for running towards the TSBD was because he thought the gunman might be on an upper floor of the building , then his primary goal was to go to the TSBD entrance door, rather than anywhere else.

He has heard shots which he thinks MAY have come from high in this building:

Mr. BAKER. - I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or the one across to the right of it

But he doesn't know for sure. Things are chaotic. He gets off his bike and sees a woman holding up a long paper bag and loudly calling attention to it and to something on the ground in front of her. She may have important information to give as to what has just happened. Perhaps the long bag was thrown out of an upper window while he was parking his bike? Perhaps the rifle's inside the bag? Perhaps this woman can tell him which window the shots came from? Officer Baker doesn't know. In the heat of the moment, he makes a perfectly reasonable snap call that he needs to speak with this woman. And it could well be that what she tells and shows him increases the likelihood in his mind that this building (and not the Dal-Tex) is the scene of the action.

If Darnell showed Officer Baker running straight for the steps, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But it doesn't---------it contains bombshell information that never made it into the official record.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2023, 09:27:51 AM
A false-flag incident involving missed shots fired from the sixth floor. By 'pro-Castro Cubans'. With whom Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald is playing the role of confederate.

We now have an explanation for the notorious fact that Mr. Oswald was taken off the FBI's watch list six weeks before Pres. Kennedy's visit to Dallas:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D01rcR4C/LHO-FBI-watch-list.jpg)

He was needed for the White House-approved false-flag operation planned for 11/22.

A week after being taken off the watch list, he starts working at the Texas School Book Depository.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 25, 2023, 12:47:02 PM
We now have an explanation for the notorious fact that Mr. Oswald was taken off the FBI's watch list six weeks before Pres. Kennedy's visit to Dallas:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D01rcR4C/LHO-FBI-watch-list.jpg)

He was needed for the White House-approved false-flag operation planned for 11/22.

A week after being taken off the watch list, he starts working at the Texas School Book Depository.

This is a terribly important point, friends. There are lots of people who have been suspected (and accused) of involvement-with-foreknowledge in the JFK assassination who had ZERO involvement-with-foreknowledge in the assassination. Why do they SEEM to have been involved-with-foreknowledge? Because their fingerprints can be found on the non-lethal false-flag operation which Pres. Kennedy had himself given the green light to.

The people who got wind of and EXPLOITED this false-flag operation to assassinate Pres. Kennedy: THEY and they alone are the ones with involvement-with-foreknowledge in the JFK assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: James Hackerott on September 27, 2023, 02:33:18 AM
Seriously, if DPD officer Bakers purpose for running towards the TSBD was because he thought the gunman might be on an upper floor of the building , then his primary goal was to go to the TSBD entrance door, rather than anywhere else.

Perspective lines need  be verified by a computer model before just relying on somebody who drew  2 blue lines overlayed on the Darnell film segment to declare with any certainty that Baker was not heading for the steps.

Even if the perspective lines can be verified, it’s still doubtful Baker would have been distracted enough by some person with a paper , to stop and waste time , rather that continuing his primary goal to find the shooter he suspected was still on an upper floor of the TSBD.
Zeon, I’m not sure what you expected from the 3D modeling of Baker’s Run scene. I did the basic work of this animation several years ago when Sandy Larson first discussed Baker’s apparent path to the depository, but I never posted it. 

To model Baker’s dash I first superimposed the Darnell frame where Baker’s shadow just reaches the vertical curb face in front of the depository with my model’s rendering of that frame. This let me find the location for my simulation.
(https://i.imgur.com/QaDxa1m.gif)

I modeled a Darnell frame and an overhead view to help visualize the path of Baker, Running Girl, and the alleged “Lovelady/Shelly” duo (but replaced Shelly with the much taller Danny Arce).  I also removed the leaves of the oak tree so not to interfere with the overhead view.

The result, as far as I’m concerned, is consistent with the graphic work done years ago by Mr. Sandy Larson. The estimated (extended trajectory, magenta line in my animation) would end at the east doorway columns just west of the tallest red and blue mail box. But of course, Darnell’s film ends just as Baker reaches the sidewalk curb, 10 feet from the depository.
(https://i.imgur.com/3bNBZRg.gif)


Please, Zeon or anyone let me know if you have issues with viewing the animation.
20230927 edit replaced above animation with addition of the island streetlight

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 27, 2023, 02:43:00 AM

  Motorcycle cop believes there is an active shooter inside a building and he elects to ride his motor around the corner and then run to the scene? This is not standard protocol.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 10:01:14 AM
  Motorcycle cop believes there is an active shooter inside a building and he elects to ride his motor around the corner and then run to the scene? This is not standard protocol.

The Weaver photo shows how easy it would have been for Officer Baker to keep going north on Houston and park his bike right by the TSBD or Dal-Tex. No thick line of spectators; no danger of causing anyone injury

(https://i.postimg.cc/T19ftqS7/Weaver.jpg)

Why didn't he just do that? Why did he instead lose precious seconds by going around the corner onto Elm?

Here's the explanation he gave the WC:

"Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend."

OK, that does make sense.

But it indicates that his decision to stop his bike and get off was not made until he had take the corner from Houston onto Elm. And it may well be that what finally prompted him to do so was the sight of the woman we see him running towards in Darnell.

If Darnell showed us nothing but mailboxes in the area to which Officer Baker is running, then his action in sprinting towards there would be perplexing. But Darnell shows us something of great interest in that place, and thus explains exactly why he's running that way:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

This woman and what she was drawing attention to had to be completely written out of the story afterwards, of course. Officer Baker had to pretend he ran straight from his bike to the front steps. Because what that woman saw and drew attention to in the seconds after the shooting, if known, would have all on its own destroyed the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 27, 2023, 10:14:19 AM
The Weaver photo shows how easy it would have been for Officer Baker to keep going north on Houston and park his bike right by the TSBD or Dal-Tex. No thick line of spectators; no danger of causing anyone injury

(https://i.postimg.cc/T19ftqS7/Weaver.jpg)

Why didn't he just do that? Why did he instead lose precious seconds by going around the corner onto Elm?

Here's the explanation he gave the WC:

"Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend."

OK, that does make sense.

But it indicates that his decision to stop his bike and get off was not made until he had take the corner from Houston onto Elm. And it may well be that what finally prompted him to do so was the sight of the woman we see him running towards in Darnell.

If Darnell showed us nothing but mailboxes in the area to which Officer Baker is running, then his action in sprinting towards there would be perplexing. But Darnell shows us something of great interest in that place, and thus explains exactly why he's running that way:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

This woman and what she was drawing attention to had to be completely written out of the story afterwards, of course. Officer Baker had to pretend he ran straight from his bike to the front steps. Because what that woman saw and drew attention to in the seconds after the shooting, if known, would have all on its own destroyed the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

But it indicates that his decision to stop his bike and get off was not made until he had take the corner from Houston onto Elm. And it may well be that what finally prompted him to do so was the sight of the woman we see him running towards in Darnell.


 ???
So now you're saying that Baker didn't notice Bag Lady as he was running towards the steps - he noticed her while he was still on his bike??


Because what that woman saw and drew attention to in the seconds after the shooting, if known, would have all on its own destroyed the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

Please explain why this lady pointing out a bag and a banner would've destroyed the case against Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 10:20:15 AM
this woman on the landing is not Mr. Oswald:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

(Nor------------not that it greatly matters at this stage-------------is she Mrs. Sarah Stanton. She's probably Mrs. Pauline Sanders.)

How can we tell the Prayer Man folks know deep down their continued pressing of the LHO=PM claim is an error? They never, ever talk about this frame:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

It's as though it doesn't exist!

Once they get beyond the denial stage of grief, they will realize that the at-the-time-extremely-promising Prayer Man theory LED TO the correct Oswald-Out-Front solution:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

And they will take legitimate pride in the part they played in getting us to that solution
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 10:22:48 AM
???
So now you're saying [...]

Poor Mr. O'Meara is triggered again ~Grin~
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 10:37:49 AM
How can we tell the Prayer Man folks know deep down their continued pressing of the LHO=PM claim is an error? They never, ever talk about this frame:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)

It's as though it doesn't exist!

The Prayer Man people think the reason why NBC won't allow access to the original Darnell film in their archives is that they don't want us to see that Prayer Man is Mr. Oswald. An understandable conclusion to draw, but an erroneous one. No-------------------publication of the original Darnell film would only confirm that Prayer Man is a woman, something NBC would be only too happy to help with.

The real bombshell in Darnell, and the real reason we'll never get to see the original, is here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zv8V1qZ5/Darnell-bag.jpg)

No way are they going to let us see a pristine image of this long bag.

But the cat bag is out of the bag! It has finally been noticed, and can't be un-noticed  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 27, 2023, 05:21:34 PM
The Weaver photo shows how easy it would have been for Officer Baker to keep going north on Houston and park his bike right by the TSBD or Dal-Tex. No thick line of spectators; no danger of causing anyone injury

(https://i.postimg.cc/T19ftqS7/Weaver.jpg)

Why didn't he just do that? Why did he instead lose precious seconds by going around the corner onto Elm?

Here's the explanation he gave the WC:

"Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend."

OK, that does make sense.

But it indicates that his decision to stop his bike and get off was not made until he had take the corner from Houston onto Elm. And it may well be that what finally prompted him to do so was the sight of the woman we see him running towards in Darnell.

If Darnell showed us nothing but mailboxes in the area to which Officer Baker is running, then his action in sprinting towards there would be perplexing. But Darnell shows us something of great interest in that place, and thus explains exactly why he's running that way:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)

This woman and what she was drawing attention to had to be completely written out of the story afterwards, of course. Officer Baker had to pretend he ran straight from his bike to the front steps. Because what that woman saw and drew attention to in the seconds after the shooting, if known, would have all on its own destroyed the case against Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

       You're omitting that Baker heard the shots and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD. Baker immediately thought that the shots were probably fired from within the TSBD. He had what he allegedly thought was probably an active shooter inside the TSBD. Baker should have made a straight line toward the TSBD, whether that ended at the steps leading to the front door or alongside the building across from the Dal Tex Bld. 1st responders are heralded for running TOWARD/INTO the fire. Baker electing to ride around the corner and then run on foot toward/into the TSBD reveals the level of danger that he really thought might have been inside the TSBD. And do Not forget that law enforcement was letting employees of the TSBD back inside the building immediately following the Kill Shot. How dangerous can this scene be when Joe 6 Packs are being permitted to freely/unaccompanied come back inside the building mere minutes after the Kill Shot? All law enforcement did was focus the attention on the TSBD and away from the grassy knoll/parking lot/train yard. Mission Accomplished here.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 05:48:26 PM
Baker electing to ride around the corner and then run on foot toward/into the TSBD

Baker electing to ride around the corner and then run on foot toward/into [someone standing near the entrance to] the TSBD

And are you insinuating that he was part of the conspiracy? If so, count me out!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 27, 2023, 06:18:46 PM
Baker electing to ride around the corner and then run on foot toward/into [someone standing near the entrance to] the TSBD

And are you insinuating that he was part of the conspiracy? If so, count me out!

   Depends at what point following the assassination your "conspiracy" is referring to. A person's story/testimony can be "massaged" into many different versions to fit whatever the desired narrative might be. You do Know that they did 3 "walk through's" with Baker prior to his WC Testimony? These "walk through's" included the motorcycle riding, running into the TSBD, etc. By the time Baker gave his WC Testimony, he was like an actor inna stage play. He knew where his "marks" were, he had his lines down to a T. The Baker WC Testimony was a farce. His LIVE actions, (or lack thereof), on 11/22/63 reveal far more than his rehearsed/canned WC testimony. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 06:46:51 PM
   Depends at what point following the assassination your "conspiracy" is referring to. A person's story/testimony can be "massaged" into many different versions to fit whatever the desired narrative might be. You do Know that they did 3 "walk through's" with Baker prior to his WC Testimony? These "walk through's" included the motorcycle riding, running into the TSBD, etc. By the time Baker gave his WC Testimony, he was like an actor inna stage play. He knew where his "marks" were, he had his lines down to a T. The Baker WC Testimony was a farce. His LIVE actions, (or lack thereof), on 11/22/63 reveal far more than his rehearsed/canned WC testimony.

Agreed 100%------Officer Baker went along with the post-assassination conspiracy to cover up the truth. And the first of the lies he had to tell is exposed by the Darnell film
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 27, 2023, 07:51:08 PM
Previously discussed and posted:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/?do=findComment&comment=471704 (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/?do=findComment&comment=471704)
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S4AKa.png)

Hi Chris and Brian, I hope that you both are doing well! In this picture of Lee in the hallway, you can see his hairline matches Prayer Man and probably his neckline does as well.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_PA-15455563.jpg)

In the backyard photo, notice Lee's right arm looks skinny like Prayer Man's right arm.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Oswaldby.png)

Notice in this picture of Sarah Stanton, she has fatter arms, a fuller head of hair, and none of the characteristics of Prayer Man.

(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2020/193/152413470_19447b77-5eb8-43a6-9522-71b41409b2fc.png)

Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 08:35:37 PM
'IF PRAYER MAN ISN'T STANTON, IT'S LHO!' ================> ILLOGICAL NONSENSE
'IF PRAYER MAN ISN'T LHO, IT'S STANTON!' ================> ILLOGICAL NONSENSE


Prayer Man in Darnell is
-----------neither Mr. Oswald nor Mrs. Stanton
-----------probably Mrs. Pauline Sanders

When there was a chance that Prayer Man in Darnell was Mr. Oswald, Prayer Man in Darnell was an object of intense, hi-stakes interest.

She is now an object of intense, hi-stakes interest only to those who need their eyes (and brains) tested.

It doesn't hugely matter who Prayer Man in Darnell is. Because she's a she. And Mr. Oswald is a he.

The smart folk have already moved on from what has become a tedious distraction. The stoopids are still mired in this zero-stakes yesterday-debate.........
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on September 27, 2023, 08:41:17 PM
The version Alan posted awhile ago had no specific provenance. There was a question of whether that version had been altered, in general(not by Alan). Don't know that answer, but I do know if you take one of the original Darnell frames Robin supplied and scale it up somewhat, here's what you get.
Is this similar to what Alan posted and James described at the 6th floor museum? Decide for yourself until a better version arises.
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S4Aww.png)




 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 27, 2023, 08:49:20 PM
The version Alan posted awhile ago had no specific provenance.

Exactly.  The "scoop neckline" may be a fraud.  Either way, it looks nothing like Sarah Stanton.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 08:49:52 PM
The version Alan posted awhile ago had no specific provenance. There was a question of whether that version had been altered, in general(not by Alan). Don't know that answer, but I do know if you take one of the original Darnell frames Robin supplied and scale it up somewhat, here's what you get.
Is this similar to what Alan posted and James described at the 6th floor museum? Decide for yourself until a better version arises.

Thank you, Mr. Davidson.

The version I posted was originally posted by Mr. Kamp (the red arrow is his), who evidently failed to see the significance of what he was posting.

One (just one) of the interesting things about it is the fact that it goes wider east than any previously available version. This is the only version where you'll get to see this fellow (green arrow):

(https://i.postimg.cc/j56xXr6M/Darnell-new-frame-wider.jpg)

Therefore it certainly is not an altered version of anything that was previously in the public domain.

And it's full of revelatory detail.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 27, 2023, 09:02:03 PM
Thank you, Mr. Davidson.

The version I posted was originally posted by Mr. Kamp (the red arrow is his), who evidently failed to see the significance of what he was posting.

One (just one) of the interesting things about it is the fact that it goes wider east than any previously available version. This is the only version where you'll get to see this fellow (green arrow):

(https://i.postimg.cc/j56xXr6M/Darnell-new-frame-wider.jpg)

Therefore it certainly is not an altered version of anything that was previously in the public domain.

And it's full of revelatory detail.

 Thumb1:

Hi Everybody, And please notice that a lady dressed in black is obscuring Lee from at least the waist down. Pauline and Sarah are on the East side of the steps. They cannot be in two places at once. All employees have been accounted for in other places! Thank you all for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Darnell_Large_gif_snapshot_002.jpg)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 09:37:26 PM
Hi Everybody, And please notice that a lady dressed in black is obscuring Lee from at least the waist down.

Optical illusion caused by shadows & what Mrs. Reese is holding in her right hand:

(https://i.postimg.cc/hGHSY7L2/Darnell-lady-shadows.jpg)===>(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg)

Quote
Pauline and Sarah are on the East side of the steps.

As pointed out before, your 'Pauline' is an optical illusion:

(https://i.ibb.co/Fb4m2tP/Darnell-face-illusion.jpg)

'She's' either a Jack-In-The-Box, or 'her' tiny 'face' is a film artefact, with 'her' 'hairline' a horizontal glitch that appears in only ONE frame:

(https://i.ibb.co/7tqBC3B/Darnell-not-sanders.gif)

And note that 'her' 'skin' is too dark compared to the skin of real people in the sunlight. Explanation: this 'face' is just the same background we see in all the other frames where 'she' doesn't appear.

**

There is absolutely no reason why Mrs. Sanders couldn't have moved across the landing (if she was indeed where she recalled having been) between the shooting and now.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on September 27, 2023, 09:46:57 PM
Exactly.  The "scoop neckline" may be a fraud.  Either way, it looks nothing like Sarah Stanton.
Robin supplied the frames from the Blue-Ray version of "JFK" the movie.
Here are consecutive frames from the non blue-ray version.
Note the morphing shoulder/neck area on PrayerPerson and the hair area of Frazier.
The reason I use the phrase "it looks like".
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S4AdK.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 27, 2023, 09:57:48 PM
Robin supplied the frames from the Blue-Ray version of "JFK" the movie.
Here are consecutive frames from the non blue-ray version.
Note the morphing shoulder/neck area on PrayerPerson and the hair area of Frazier.
The reason I use the phrase "it looks like".
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S4AdK.gif)

Hi Chris and Alan, And notice the solid ankle [around the fourth or fifth step] of the lady wearing the black dress. Alan your Bag Woman has the same defective ankles! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://i.postimg.cc/zv8V1qZ5/Darnell-bag.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 09:59:38 PM
Robin supplied the frames from the Blue-Ray version of "JFK" the movie.
Here are consecutive frames from the non blue-ray version.
Note the morphing shoulder/neck area on PrayerPerson

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDRFgm2W/Darnell-non-bluray.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 27, 2023, 10:00:06 PM
Hi Chris and Alan, And notice the solid ankle [around the fourth or fifth step] of the lady wearing the black dress

 ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 27, 2023, 10:18:01 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDRFgm2W/Darnell-non-bluray.gif)

Hi Alan, That is Lee's ID bracelet and Marine Corps ring reflecting in the sun. Directly opposite on the East side we have Sarah Stanton then Avery Davis; above Avery Davis is Pauline Sanders. The girls stayed together. Also notice there is a lady opening the door to go in! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 28, 2023, 09:13:07 AM
Mr. Greg Doudna writes:

'Is it certain there is a Prayer Man in the Weigman film at all?
Serious question.
I see a spot of light in Prayer Man's position in Weigman, which could correspond to the spot of light at the viewer's right [east] of Prayer Man visible in Darnell, but is that particular spot of light connected to or part of Prayer Man at all, in either photo? Or is that spot of light something from inside the building showing through the glass front separating the front landing from the inside of the doorway, unrelated to the presence of Prayer Man? And there is no Prayer Man in Weigman?
Is it excluded that Prayer Man could have first arrived in the position seen in the Darnell film some seconds after the Z313 head shot? And Darnell is the only film evidence of Prayer Man?
'

Mr. Doudna is both very right and very wrong.

He's very wrong to suggest that there is no Prayer Man in Wiegman. There clearly is a person there.
He's also wrong to keep warming his hands by the snuffed-out flame of PM-in-Darnell=LHO.

However!

He's very right to query the assumption that Prayer Man in Wiegman must be the same person as Prayer Man in Darnell. For some time now I myself have been querying this assumption, which I suspect has caused no end of confusion.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8KJy27F/PM-Wiegman-Darnell.gif)

PM/Darnell is on the landing; PM/Wiegman is down at least one step.
Their bodies are oriented differently (compare the position of the left elbows).

Now of course, it's perfectly possible for PM/Wiegman to change position by the time of Darnell (~25 secs later), stepping up on to the landing to become PM/Darnell.
But it's far from a given that this is what happened.
And it's no less possible for someone OTHER than PM/Wiegman to change position by the time of Darnell, for instance moving across the landing to become PM/Darnell.
I believe the latter is just what happened, and that PM/Darnell is dark-haired Mrs. Pauline Sanders. Why, she may even be wearing the selfsame red garment we see in this post-assassination photo:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/PJKJKJSj/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg)

As for PM/Wiegman, I believe he may be

EITHER
Mr. Oswald, standing just where we saw him standing seconds before this in Hughes, only now he's had a fake shadow placed over him:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif)

OR
Mr. Bill Shelley, lighting a cigarette------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/GtSqctRX/Wiegman-slow.gif)

------------Mr. Oswald having already left the steps to pull his pro-Castro banner stunt.

In short, I believe that PM/Wiegman is of infinitely more interest to the case than PM/Darnell

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 10:57:04 AM
Mr. Greg Doudna writes:

'Is it certain there is a Prayer Man in the Weigman film at all?
Serious question.
I see a spot of light in Prayer Man's position in Weigman, which could correspond to the spot of light at the viewer's right [east] of Prayer Man visible in Darnell, but is that particular spot of light connected to or part of Prayer Man at all, in either photo? Or is that spot of light something from inside the building showing through the glass front separating the front landing from the inside of the doorway, unrelated to the presence of Prayer Man? And there is no Prayer Man in Weigman?
Is it excluded that Prayer Man could have first arrived in the position seen in the Darnell film some seconds after the Z313 head shot? And Darnell is the only film evidence of Prayer Man?
'

Mr. Doudna is both very right and very wrong.

He's very wrong to suggest that there is no Prayer Man in Wiegman. There clearly is a person there.
He's also wrong to keep warming his hands by the snuffed-out flame of PM-in-Darnell=LHO.

However!

He's very right to query the assumption that Prayer Man in Wiegman must be the same person as Prayer Man in Darnell. For some time now I myself have been querying this assumption, which I suspect has caused no end of confusion.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8KJy27F/PM-Wiegman-Darnell.gif)

PM/Darnell is on the landing; PM/Wiegman is down at least one step.
Their bodies are oriented differently (compare the position of the left elbows).

Now of course, it's perfectly possible for PM/Wiegman to change position by the time of Darnell (~25 secs later), stepping up on to the landing to become PM/Darnell.
But it's far from a given that this is what happened.
And it's no less possible for someone OTHER than PM/Wiegman to change position by the time of Darnell, for instance moving across the landing to become PM/Darnell.
I believe the latter is just what happened, and that PM/Darnell is dark-haired Mrs. Pauline Sanders. Why, she may even be wearing the selfsame red garment we see in this post-assassination photo:

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/PJKJKJSj/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg)

As for PM/Wiegman, I believe he may be

EITHER
Mr. Oswald, standing just where we saw him standing seconds before this in Hughes, only now he's had a fake shadow placed over him:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif)

OR
Mr. Bill Shelley, lighting a cigarette------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/GtSqctRX/Wiegman-slow.gif)

------------Mr. Oswald having already left the steps to pull his pro-Castro banner stunt.

In short, I believe that PM/Wiegman is of infinitely more interest to the case than PM/Darnell

 Thumb1:

Hi Alan, In Wiegman, Bill is still in between Billy and Joe. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor9.jpg)


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 28, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
GREEN ARROW: Mr. Billy Lovelady
PINK ARROW: Mr. Joe Molina
BLUE ARROW: Mr. Otis Williams
RED ARROW: Mrs. Sarah Stanton

(https://i.postimg.cc/FK9CngpV/Wiegman-IDs.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/BQTdY6ss/Altgens-IDs.jpg)

Notes.

1. Mr. Shelley told FBI he was OUT OF SHOT in the Altgens photograph. He was------------being to Mr. Lovelady's WEST. I believe he is one of two v. strong candidates for Prayer Man in Wiegman.

2. Mr. Lovelady pointed Mr. Dom Bonafede to a woman in Altgens shielding her eyes as a lady who worked on the second floor. He told WC that beside him was 'Sarah'. In both instances, the reference is to Mrs. Stanton. Mr. Lovelady's 'memory' of who was where on the steps was obviously influenced by his viewing of the Altgens photograph, which makes it look like Mrs. Stanton is right beside him.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 02:19:35 PM
GREEN ARROW: Mr. Billy Lovelady
PINK ARROW: Mr. Joe Molina
BLUE ARROW: Mr. Otis Williams
RED ARROW: Mrs. Sarah Stanton

(https://i.postimg.cc/FK9CngpV/Wiegman-IDs.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/BQTdY6ss/Altgens-IDs.jpg)

Notes.

1. Mr. Shelley told FBI he was OUT OF SHOT in the Altgens photograph. He was------------being to Mr. Lovelady's WEST. I believe he is one of two v. strong candidates for Prayer Man in Wiegman.

2. Mr. Lovelady pointed Mr. Dom Bonafede to a woman in Altgens shielding her eyes as a lady who worked on the second floor. He told WC that beside him was 'Sarah'. In both instances, the reference is to Mrs. Stanton. Mr. Lovelady's 'memory' of who was where on the steps was obviously influenced by his viewing of the Altgens photograph, which makes it look like Mrs. Stanton is right beside him.

Hi Alan, The red arrow points to Joe Molina. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

It goes F. is Billy; E. is Bill; B. is Otis; and A. is Joe. Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/16832.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 28, 2023, 07:02:28 PM
2. Mr. Lovelady pointed Mr. Dom Bonafede to a woman in Altgens shielding her eyes as a lady who worked on the second floor. He told WC that beside him was 'Sarah'. In both instances, the reference is to Mrs. Stanton.

Thanks Alan.  I was unfamiliar with the Bonafede article.  That nicely disposes of Doyle's fabricated claim that Lovelady ever "placed Stanton in the prayerman position".
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 10:58:04 PM
Thanks Alan.  I was unfamiliar with the Bonafede article.  That nicely disposes of Doyle's fabricated claim that Lovelady ever "placed Stanton in the prayerman position".

Hi John, That is only true for the Darnell footage with Sarah on the East shielding her eyes from the sun, then Avery Davis next to Sarah's left hand side. Everybody back in 2013 on the original Prayer Man thread used the Altgens/Wiegman photograph and frame for the earlier identification of the TSBD building employees on the steps. It went like this: A. Joe Molina, B. Otis Williams, C. Ruth Dean, D. Maddie Reese, E. Bill Shelley, F. Billy Lovelady, G. Carl Jones.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/16832.jpg)

What is confusing people now is in Altgens/Wiegman you have Maddie, Otis, and Joe shielding their eyes from the sun; in the later Darnell frame you only have Sarah shielding her eyes from the sun.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg)

Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 29, 2023, 12:28:07 AM
Hi Alan, The red arrow points to Joe Molina. Thank you for everything!

I'm done playing Whac-A-Mole with your nonsense, Mr. Welch (and it is nonsense, however well-meaning). Im afraid you join demented Mr. Doyle on my ignore list
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 29, 2023, 12:49:21 AM
I'm done playing Whac-A-Mole with your nonsense, Mr. Welch (and it is nonsense, however well-meaning). Im afraid you join demented Mr. Doyle on my ignore list

Hi Alan, I am not going to just let you make up your own facts when researchers have already proven who is who on the steps. Thank you very much! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 29, 2023, 01:13:23 PM
The real bombshell in Darnell, and the real reason we'll never get to see the original, is here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zv8V1qZ5/Darnell-bag.jpg)

No way are they going to let us see a pristine image of this long bag.

But the cat bag is out of the bag! It has finally been noticed, and can't be un-noticed  Thumb1:

This bag continues to be seen in The Uncut Jack Martin Film!

Starting at around the 10:40 mark a man in a black suit and hat appears to be holding it in his right hand or it is holding him because it is some sort of film anomaly .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 29, 2023, 03:24:58 PM
We now have an explanation for the notorious fact that Mr. Oswald was taken off the FBI's watch list six weeks before Pres. Kennedy's visit to Dallas:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D01rcR4C/LHO-FBI-watch-list.jpg)

He was needed for the White House-approved false-flag operation planned for 11/22.

A week after being taken off the watch list, he starts working at the Texas School Book Depository.

So!

Conspiracy A (the plan for missed shots to be fired from the TSBD sixth floor as Pres. Kennedy is riding through Dealey Plaza)
Conspiracy B (exploiting Conspiracy A to carry out a real assassination on Pres. Kennedy)

Key to the success of Conspiracy A is that 'pro-Castro' Mr. Oswald become THE named conspirator whose involvement identifies this as a pro-Castro provocation. All for the purpose of creating a compelling pretext for C-Day (1 Dec).

Let's game this out.............

Logically, the original Conspiracy A plan for the post-incident phase will surely look something like the following:

Mr. Oswald gets away from Dealey Plaza and disappears. He is holed up somewhere safe, a guest of his own country whose loyal servant he has been. For the rest of his days, he will be living a new life under the equivalent of a witness protection program. This is what Mr. Oswald has been told will happen, and he has believed it to be a good faith promise (which it probably is).

However.......... The press will be fed a very different story. They will soon be reporting faithfully that Mr. Oswald is understood to have flown to Cuba out of Red Bird Airport, and is now being kept safe by a grateful and impressed Pres. Castro & comrades. All vehement denials from Pres. Castro are met with angry disbelief, not least by Pres. Kennedy himself.


So what happens to this Conspiracy A plan for Mr. Oswald once Conspiracy A is superseded in the most horrific manner imaginable by Conspiracy B?

Mr. Oswald is left hanging. He now represents a disastrous human remainder. The promised govt-facilitated escape from Dallas cannot materialize. And NB: the flight of 'Oswald' from Red Bird must be called off. Under intense pressure of shocking and fast-moving circumstances, it is felt that all the effort that has gone into associating Mr. Oswald with a pro-Castro CONSPIRACY must now go into isolating and depoliticizing him as a gunman acting alone.

After his arrest, Mr. Oswald still hopes for an intervention by those he has served. But they have already reached a merciless but necessary decision: this man may not keep his cover in custody indefinitely; nor can he stand trial, where a defense team will bring out dangerous facts; he's got to go.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 29, 2023, 04:01:04 PM
So what happens to this Conspiracy A plan for Mr. Oswald once Conspiracy A is superseded in the most horrific manner imaginable by Conspiracy B?

Mr. Oswald is left hanging. He now represents a disastrous human remainder. The promised govt-facilitated escape from Dallas cannot materialize. And NB: the flight of 'Oswald' from Red Bird must be called off. All the effort that has gone into associating Mr. Oswald with a pro-Castro CONSPIRACY must now go into isolating and depoliticizing him as a gunman acting alone.

After his arrest, Mr. Oswald still hopes for an intervention by those he has served. But they have already reached a merciless but necessary decision: this man may not keep his cover in custody indefinitely; nor can he stand trial, where a defense team will bring out dangerous facts; he's got to go.

But how is the LHO factor supposed to play out from the perspective of those planning Conspiracy B (the assassination)? What might they (BEFORE the assassination) reasonably expect will happen with Mr. Oswald afterwards? And how do subsequent events (Texas Theatre arrest, etc.) tally with their expectations? Will they even have a hand in these events?

These questions are as tricky as they are intriguing.

I think a useful starting point in working towards an answer to them is the following chain of considerations:

i) pre-11/22, a scenario never enters the minds of EITHER Conspirators A OR Conspirators B that Mr. Oswald will be nailed as a GUNMAN, still less as a gunman ACTING ALONE: it is baked in that the world's understanding will be that the event in Dealey Plaza (whether missed-shots provocation or actual assassination) came about as a result of a pro-Castro conspiracy, with Mr. Oswald playing his part at the front entrance @ assassination-time
ii) NEITHER Conspirators A NOR Conspirators B can afford the prospect of the assassination being properly investigated after the event
iii) Conspirators B can bank on Conspirators A doing everything possible to cover their own tracks with regard to the false-flag operation: in a grotesque irony, Conspirators A will in effect be forced into providing cover not just for themselves but for Conspirators B too
iv) In all likelihood, Conspirators B expect that the damage-control official story will be that Pres. Kennedy was killed by pro-Castro Cubans. (Politically, this is fine and dandy with them-------a secondary dividend of the assassination)
v) It follows that Conspirators B take it as given that no circumstances would arise in which Conspirators A would allow faux-Castroite Mr. Oswald stay around long enough to vocally refuse & refute the role of confederate in the pro-Castro assassination of Pres. Kennedy. (The man's a loyal footsoldier, but he's hardly going to be THAT loyal.....)

After Mr. Oswald's arrest, did Conspirators B simply sit back and
------------------boggle at the sheer unexpected audacity of the establishment in trying to pass of Mr. Oswald as a LONE GUNMAN?
------------------let Conspirators A take care of what everyone knew needed to be done with him?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 29, 2023, 05:12:38 PM
      Here we go again with claims of "ORIGINAL" Wiegman and Darnell Films. In "Pictures Of The Pain", Trask says Wiegman reported seeing SA Lem Johns UP the knoll. Where is Lem Johns on the Current Wiegman Film??  60 yrs out, and we do Not know what we have with there continuing to be Holes in the Wiegman Film along with it purported to have been filmed "continuously" for decades. Using the Wiegman Film as the foundation for any conclusion is an immediate DQ.

Hi Royell, I hope you are doing well! We do have SSA Lem Johns jumping on the back and into Camera Car 1 in Couch! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Here are pictures of Secret Service agent Lem Johns running and then jumping into the back of Camera Car #1. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-210621.JPG)

In this picture Cameraman Thomas Atkins is in the middle of the frame while Officer Clyde Haygood is trying to park his motorcycle.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-211044.JPG)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 29, 2023, 07:39:10 PM
Hi Royell, I hope you are doing well! We do have SSA Lem Johns jumping on the back and into Camera Car 1 in Couch! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Here are pictures of Secret Service agent Lem Johns running and then jumping into the back of Camera Car #1. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-210621.JPG)

In this picture Cameraman Thomas Atkins is in the middle of the frame while Officer Clyde Haygood is trying to park his motorcycle.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-211044.JPG)

    Exactly who is accountable for ID'ing the back of this man as being SA Lem Johns jumping into a Camera Car ??
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 29, 2023, 08:00:39 PM
    Exactly who is accountable for ID'ing the back of this man as being SA Lem Johns jumping into a Camera Car ??


Hi Royell, Please see below! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael


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Former Secret Service agent Lem Johns dies at 88

By Terence McArdle
May 11, 2014 at 7:07 p.m. EDT

Lem Johns, with dark hair, stands partially obscured behind Jacqueline Kennedy, right, as President Lyndon Johnson takes the oath of office on Air Force One in 1963. (Cecil Stoughton/AP)

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Lem Johns, a Secret Service agent who guarded Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson during the Kennedy assassination, returned on Air Force One to Washington as Johnson was sworn in as president, and later headed Johnson’s presidential security detail, died Saturday at his home in Hoover, Ala. He was 88.

His death was announced by his grandson, Michael Johns, according to the Associated Press.

On Nov, 22, 1963, the day of John F. Kennedy’s assassination in Dallas, Mr. Johns was one of three Secret Service agents riding in a convertible behind Vice President Johnson and his wife, Lady Bird, in the presidential motorcade. Agent Jerry Kivett drove the agents’ car and monitored radio reports of the parade.

Suddenly, they heard the first two shots.

Though unsure whether he had heard gunshots, vehicle backfire or firecrackers, Mr. Johns jumped from the security car and made a dash for the car carrying Johnson.


However, after a third shot, the entire motorcade sped up. Mr. Johns, on foot, was left behind on the street.

Rufus Youngblood, the chief agent in the Johnson security detail, used his body to cover the vice president and Mrs. Johnson as their car followed the Kennedy vehicle and a Secret Service car to Parkland Hospital.

Amid the chaos, Mr. Johns climbed aboard a car carrying photographers, then moved to the sidecar of a police motorcycle en route to Parkland. He found Johnson and the other Secret Service agents at the hospital, waiting as surgeons worked on Kennedy. Texas Gov. John B. Connally also was wounded but survived.

When Kennedy died, an unmarked police cruiser took Johnson and agent Youngblood to Love Field where Air Fo
rce One waited to fly Johnson to Washington. Mr. Johns, who had been seeking a secure hospital exit for Johnson and Youngblood, had to leave for the airport in another police car. Once at the airport, Mr. Johns screened all those who boarded Air Force One while awaiting the arrival of first lady Jacqueline Kennedy and the casket carrying the president’s body. There were concerns about the possibility of an attempt on Johnson’s life.


I think the driver of Camera Car 1's name is John Holt; it is actually John Hofan. He confirmed right away on 11-22-63 that they picked up a SSA in their car in Dealey Plaza.

From around 54:00 to 56:03 John Hofan, who they call John Holt, gives his live account of picking up SSA Lem Johns in Dealey Plaza.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 29, 2023, 10:36:27 PM

Hi Royell, Please see below! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael


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Former Secret Service agent Lem Johns dies at 88

By Terence McArdle
May 11, 2014 at 7:07 p.m. EDT

Lem Johns, with dark hair, stands partially obscured behind Jacqueline Kennedy, right, as President Lyndon Johnson takes the oath of office on Air Force One in 1963. (Cecil Stoughton/AP)

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Lem Johns, a Secret Service agent who guarded Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson during the Kennedy assassination, returned on Air Force One to Washington as Johnson was sworn in as president, and later headed Johnson’s presidential security detail, died Saturday at his home in Hoover, Ala. He was 88.

His death was announced by his grandson, Michael Johns, according to the Associated Press.

On Nov, 22, 1963, the day of John F. Kennedy’s assassination in Dallas, Mr. Johns was one of three Secret Service agents riding in a convertible behind Vice President Johnson and his wife, Lady Bird, in the presidential motorcade. Agent Jerry Kivett drove the agents’ car and monitored radio reports of the parade.

Suddenly, they heard the first two shots.

Though unsure whether he had heard gunshots, vehicle backfire or firecrackers, Mr. Johns jumped from the security car and made a dash for the car carrying Johnson.


However, after a third shot, the entire motorcade sped up. Mr. Johns, on foot, was left behind on the street.

Rufus Youngblood, the chief agent in the Johnson security detail, used his body to cover the vice president and Mrs. Johnson as their car followed the Kennedy vehicle and a Secret Service car to Parkland Hospital.

Amid the chaos, Mr. Johns climbed aboard a car carrying photographers, then moved to the sidecar of a police motorcycle en route to Parkland. He found Johnson and the other Secret Service agents at the hospital, waiting as surgeons worked on Kennedy. Texas Gov. John B. Connally also was wounded but survived.

When Kennedy died, an unmarked police cruiser took Johnson and agent Youngblood to Love Field where Air Fo
rce One waited to fly Johnson to Washington. Mr. Johns, who had been seeking a secure hospital exit for Johnson and Youngblood, had to leave for the airport in another police car. Once at the airport, Mr. Johns screened all those who boarded Air Force One while awaiting the arrival of first lady Jacqueline Kennedy and the casket carrying the president’s body. There were concerns about the possibility of an attempt on Johnson’s life.


I think the driver of Camera Car 1's name is John Holt. He confirmed right away on 11-22-63 that they picked up a SSA in their car in Dealey Plaza.

From around 54:00 to 56:03 John Holt gives his live account of picking up SSA Lem Johns in Dealey Plaza.

   Michael - Thanks for this post. The SA Lem Johns 11/22/63 journey following shots being fired inside Dealey Plaza is confusing at best. Johns filed an 11/29/63 Report which conflicts with many of the facts? contained in the McArdle piece you have posted.  Johns detailed in his report that he jumped out of the LBJ Security Car, (a hard top vehicle not a "convertible" as per the McArdle piece), and then running down Elm St toward the LBJ convertible. No Dealey Plaza eyewitness or any image captured that day has revealed an SS Agent exiting the LBJ Security Car and then running down Elm St. toward the LBJ Convertible. Johns also claimed that he was left standing in Elm St as the JFK Motorcade sped away, though eyewitnesses and filmed images that day also failed to corroborate his claim here too. Johns claimed that he never left Elm St after the motorcade sped away. This flies in the face of Wiegman reporting in Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain" to have seen SA Johns as Wiegman ran UP the knoll. Wiegman seeing Johns on the Knoll is important as NO AGENTS were allegedly assigned a position inside Dealey Plaza that day. I bring the SA Johns position inside Dealey Plaza up as Mal Couch, (Camera Car #3), reported a "blood pool" of roughly 9 inches in the area across from the Texas School Book Depository/Elm St Ext. We know where Wiegman was when he ran UP the knoll and reported seeing SA Johns, and we know where the LBJ Security Car was when shots were fired. Both of these possible SA Johns scenarios places this on-the-ground armed agent in very close proximity to the approximately 9 Inch blood pool detailed by the respected Mal Couch in his WC Testimony. The itinerary of SA Lem Johns on 11/22/63 remains a serious mystery to this day     
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 29, 2023, 11:52:50 PM
Hi Royell, You are most welcome my friend! I just found this on Denis Morissette's site. Thank you for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael

DEALEY PLAZA
According to Craven, he was running after the last shot. He told Richard Trask that he ran up the grassy knoll to follow a policeman who running up the hill. He found himself with SS agent Thomas “Lem” Johns, an agent originally with Vice-President Johnson. Not seeing anything special, Craven started filming the people on the ground (TPOTP, page 375).

Craven believes he took some film of the limousine going under the overpass. He also recalls getting back in he car with SS agent Johns. Just beyond the overpass, near the ramp leading to the freeway, Dan Rather was standing holding a bright yellow grapefruit bag. He was waiting for any film thrown to him. “Our production crew in the motorcade was going to throw me several reels of exposed films as they passed. I had a cab waiting to rush the film to KRLD. Although I did not see the president, I knew that something was wrong, so I jumped into my cab and went straight to KRLD studio”. (TPOTP, pages 375-376)

Craven added, “I know I was rolling as we made the that right turn coming up to the Depository- I thought  I had seen a flash or a puff of smoke, but it never showed up, because I had a wide angle lens on, and it was so far away, you wouldn’t have seen it” (TPOTP, page 383)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 30, 2023, 02:04:23 AM
Hi Royell, You are most welcome my friend! I just found this on Denis Morissette's site. Thank you for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael

DEALEY PLAZA
According to Craven, he was running after the last shot. He told Richard Trask that he ran up the grassy knoll to follow a policeman who running up the hill. He found himself with SS agent Thomas “Lem” Johns, an agent originally with Vice-President Johnson. Not seeing anything special, Craven started filming the people on the ground (TPOTP, page 375).

Craven believes he took some film of the limousine going under the overpass. He also recalls getting back in he car with SS agent Johns. Just beyond the overpass, near the ramp leading to the freeway, Dan Rather was standing holding a bright yellow grapefruit bag. He was waiting for any film thrown to him. “Our production crew in the motorcade was going to throw me several reels of exposed films as they passed. I had a cab waiting to rush the film to KRLD. Although I did not see the president, I knew that something was wrong, so I jumped into my cab and went straight to KRLD studio”. (TPOTP, pages 375-376)

Craven added, “I know I was rolling as we made the that right turn coming up to the Depository- I thought  I had seen a flash or a puff of smoke, but it never showed up, because I had a wide angle lens on, and it was so far away, you wouldn’t have seen it” (TPOTP, page 383)

    Thanks again Michael.  Personally, I believe Johns was assigned to that Knoll area on 11/22/63. He was Not inside that LBJ SS Car. None of the Joe 6 Packs all over Dealey Plaza saw him get out of that car and run down Elm St as he claimed. That never happened. And I also believe the SS is lying about it because it is connected to that 9 inch blood pool in the same knoll area in which Johns was sighted.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 30, 2023, 03:21:20 AM

IMO , JFK was probably NOT in the loop on this theoretical false flag shooting plan that Mr. Ford has proposed as an alternative, because it would  have been counter productive to the “better “ relationship that JFK and Kruschev had established after the 62 Missile Crisis,  primarily to avoid nuclear war and from which the Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine was developed.

It could be just Oswald was told of this plan by the conspirator team (probably the 2 men that Sylvia Odio saw Oswald with in her apartment) and what he was supposed to do.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 30, 2023, 04:32:20 AM
    Thanks again Michael.  Personally, I believe Johns was assigned to that Knoll area on 11/22/63. He was Not inside that LBJ SS Car. None of the Joe 6 Packs all over Dealey Plaza saw him get out of that car and run down Elm St as he claimed. That never happened. And I also believe the SS is lying about it because it is connected to that 9 inch blood pool in the same knoll area in which Johns was sighted.

Hi Royell, I just found this picture of the Vice President's SS Car with the left rear door open and maybe somebody starting to get out on Houston Street near Elm Street. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xESc5U3HVmI/WcPCny_RMNI/AAAAAAAAPRw/WRfgvFAKZXohhPiiePK_Cf_B4UZKvmizgCLcBGAs/s640/01k%2BMayors%2BCar%2B%25283%2529.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_14.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 30, 2023, 06:03:46 AM
Hi Royell, I just found this picture of the Vice President's SS Car with the left rear door open and maybe somebody starting to get out on Houston Street near Elm Street. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xESc5U3HVmI/WcPCny_RMNI/AAAAAAAAPRw/WRfgvFAKZXohhPiiePK_Cf_B4UZKvmizgCLcBGAs/s640/01k%2BMayors%2BCar%2B%25283%2529.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_14.jpg)

   That car door was already open. You can see that same door being ajar on the Altgens Photo. You can see the JFK Limo in the still frame above. It's front bumper has yet to reach the TSBD front door. Per the WC, this is too early for a shot to have been fired.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 30, 2023, 08:26:05 AM
   That car door was already open. You can see that same door being ajar on the Altgens Photo. You can see the JFK Limo in the still frame above. It's front bumper has yet to reach the TSBD front door. Per the WC, this is too early for a shot to have been fired.

Hi Royell, Thank you! Yes, you are correct! With Tina Towner's concentration on Jackie, and Ike Altgens not able to take another quick picture, do we have any film of the Vice President's SS Car when Lem could have jumped out of the open car door? Thank you for your valuable input! I really appreciate it! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/AP6311220989crop2.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on September 30, 2023, 11:20:33 AM
So!

Conspiracy A (the plan for missed shots to be fired from the TSBD sixth floor as Pres. Kennedy is riding through Dealey Plaza)
Conspiracy B (exploiting Conspiracy A to carry out a real assassination on Pres. Kennedy)

Key to the success of Conspiracy A is that 'pro-Castro' Mr. Oswald become THE named conspirator whose involvement identifies this as a pro-Castro provocation. All for the purpose of creating a compelling pretext for C-Day (1 Dec).

Where are DPD in all this? Assuming no advance knowledge on their side of the clandestine false-flag operation, the DPD's understanding, within a very short time of the assassination, is based on the evidence they are aware of: that this Oswald fellow has been involved (not as shooter) in a successful pro-Castro conspiracy to kill Pres. Kennedy. They know he's guilty of involvement. Their course of action is consequently a no-brainer: to charge him as an accomplice in a leftist conspiracy, and as the shooter of Officer Tippit.

But word quickly comes down from on high, and from outside: no, this LHO fellow must be nailed as a DOUBLE shooter. A lone actor. For national security reasons, the world must NOT learn that Pres. Kennedy was killed by pro-Castro conspiracy. It would lead to WWIII. 

And so all DPD efforts, like those of the other 'investigating' authorities, go into the absurd project of framing Mr. Oswald not just for the murder of Officer Tippit but also for the murder of Pres. Kennedy. They feel not the slightest compunction in framing this guy, because a) they routinely pull this corrupt stuff in normal times anyway, and Mr. Wade has a proud record of convicting innocent men; b) they reckon LHO has it coming, being 'guiltocent' on account of his known involvement in the pro-Castro conspiracy. At least we got one of the b*st*rds.

Several years later, all this is weighing heavily on Mr. Jesse Curry. He knows this was a conspiracy, and 'knows' it was a communist conspiracy. And he knows Mr. Oswald was most definitely NOT at the SN window firing on Pres. Kennedy. So he makes the startling admission: we never could put Oswald in that building with that rifle at that time.

His admission alerts us to a striking fact: the DPD/FBI/SS framing of Mr. Oswald was both thorough and incomplete. Thorough in all sorts of ways (starting with the confiscation of his alibi); incomplete in that the 'evidence' putting Mr. Oswald up at the SN window @12:30pm never goes beyond the circumstantial. Why not? Because they KNOW that his front-entrance alibi may yet come to light in an undeniable way, or an image may yet emerge showing someone else firing from the sixth floor. Were either of these things to happen, any cooked evidence that went too far would expose the fact that they framed him.

Just think, for example, how easy it would have been for those privy to Mr. Oswald's final interrogation to tell everyone that he finally broke, and confessed to shooting Pres. Kennedy. But no, that would offer a dangerous hostage to fortune. A witness could break ranks any day. A photo or film could come into the public domain exonerating him unequivocally. Best to stick with the plan: lots of cooked evidence pointing to LHO as the shooter; lots of suppressed real evidence that would have pointed to conspiracy; a seemingly reasonable inference drawn by the 'investigation': LHO shot JFK, and he was acting alone.

They would have loved to go further. But they couldn't.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 30, 2023, 04:07:15 PM
Hi Royell, Thank you! Yes, you are correct! With Tina Towner's concentration on Jackie, and Ike Altgens not able to take another quick picture, do we have any film of the Vice President's SS Car when Lem could have jumped out of the open car door? Thank you for your valuable input! I really appreciate it! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/AP6311220989crop2.jpg)

  Michael - SA Lem Johns was allegedly seated in the (R) Rear/Back Seat of the LBJ SS Car. That (L) rear door you're looking at would have done him no good in possibly exiting that car. And yes, there was another SA Agent there in the back seat seated/positioned next to that door that is ajar. There are: (1) No Dealey Plaza witnesses that saw SA Johns exit that LBJ SS vehicle while it was on Elm St, (2) There are No image(s) of SA John running down Elm St toward the LBJ Convertible, (as he claims), (3) There are No image(s) of Johns standing in Elm St as/after the JFK Motorcade sped away, (as he claims).  I believe that Johns was sighted by Wiegman UP the Knoll because Johns was assigned some sort of on the ground foot duty there inside Dealey Plaza. His close proximity to the blood pool testified to by Mal Couch can Not be over stated. I also believe whatever caused that blood pool spurred the Chism Family to suddenly run across the knoll and down the sidewalk while handing off their child. I have never heard a reason for the Chism Family's belated Mad Dash down Elm. And they were physically close to that blood pool/Elm St Ext before going pell-mell.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 30, 2023, 04:55:48 PM
  Michael - SA Lem Johns was allegedly seated in the (R) Rear/Back Seat of the LBJ SS Car. That (L) rear door you're looking at would have done him no good in possibly exiting that car. And yes, there was another SA Agent there in the back seat seated/positioned next to that door that is ajar. There are: (1) No Dealey Plaza witnesses that saw SA Johns exit that LBJ SS vehicle while it was on Elm St, (2) There are No image(s) of SA John running down Elm St toward the LBJ Convertible, (as he claims), (3) There are No image(s) of Johns standing in Elm St as/after the JFK Motorcade sped away, (as he claims).  I believe that Johns was sighted by Wiegman UP the Knoll because Johns was assigned some sort of on the ground foot duty there inside Dealey Plaza. His close proximity to the blood pool testified to by Mal Couch can Not be over stated. I also believe whatever caused that blood pool spurred the Chism Family to suddenly run across the knoll and down the sidewalk while handing off their child. I have never heard a reason for the Chism Family's belated Mad Dash down Elm. And they were physically close to that blood pool/Elm St Ext before going pell-mell.

Hi Royell, Good to learn! Thank you very much!! So was the blood pool supposed to be in front of the Chisms? I do not have computer graphic skills. Do you have the ability to put an arrow where the pool of blood is supposed to be. The Chisms are hard to figure out! A bullet is supposed to strike the street in front of them[I'm guessing] [They are all three standing in the street!]. They see the President jump up in his seat probably reacting to the neck wound. Then they see the head shot. Marvin Faye grabs Ricky and her and John run towards the North Arcade where the young boys are standing. Then Marvin Faye hands off Ricky to John as they are running across the grass diagonally more towards the Grassy Knoll area. I do not know what exactly happens next because John said he was tackled by men who thought he was a gunman, BUT did he still have Ricky??? Thank you as always for your awesome input! Sincerely yours, Michael
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 30, 2023, 07:25:07 PM
Hi Royell, Good to learn! Thank you very much!! So was the blood pool supposed to be in front of the Chisms? I do not have computer graphic skills. Do you have the ability to put an arrow where the pool of blood is supposed to be. The Chisms are hard to figure out! A bullet is supposed to strike the street in front of them[I'm guessing] [They are all three standing in the street!]. They see the President jump up in his seat probably reacting to the neck wound. Then they see the head shot. Marvin Faye grabs Ricky and her and John run towards the North Arcade where the young boys are standing. Then Marvin Faye hands off Ricky to John as they are running across the grass diagonally more towards the Grassy Knoll area. I do not know what exactly happens next because John said he was tackled by men who thought he was a gunman, BUT did he still have Ricky??? Thank you as always for your awesome input! Sincerely yours, Michael

   Couch was called to give WC Testimony in order to detail what he saw coming outta the sniper's nest window as his Camera Car #3 traveled down Houston St. Couch went off script with his testimony about seeing a roughly 9 inch blood pool. Couch was vague about the exact location of the blood pool, and the WC Attorney did not pursue any questioning regarding it. Best I can tell, that blood pool would be on the other side of the Elm St Ext/across the street from the TSBD, down toward the corner/triangle area. Most people do Not realize how close the Elm St Ext is to the East Knoll Grass area. If you were to lean out of that Shelter that Zapruder filmed Sitzman & The Hester's in front of, you could almost drop a rock onto the Elm St. Ext. The Shelter and the Elm Ext are that close together. Something dramatic suddenly spurred the Chism Family into sprinting across the Knoll. Considering that Wiegman filmed the Chism Family beginning their sprint, means they did not begin running until roughly 1 minute after the Kill Shot. And I believe their run direction was Directly Away from whatever they feared.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on September 30, 2023, 09:33:03 PM
   Couch was called to give WC Testimony in order to detail what he saw coming outta the sniper's nest window as his Camera Car #3 traveled down Houston St. Couch went off script with his testimony about seeing a roughly 9 inch blood pool. Couch was vague about the exact location of the blood pool, and the WC Attorney did not pursue any questioning regarding it. Best I can tell, that blood pool would be on the other side of the Elm St Ext/across the street from the TSBD, down toward the corner/triangle area. Most people do Not realize how close the Elm St Ext is to the East Knoll Grass area. If you were to lean out of that Shelter that Zapruder filmed Sitzman & The Hester's in front of, you could almost drop a rock onto the Elm St. Ext. The Shelter and the Elm Ext are that close together. Something dramatic suddenly spurred the Chism Family into sprinting across the Knoll. Considering that Wiegman filmed the Chism Family beginning their sprint, means they did not begin running until roughly 1 minute after the Kill Shot. And I believe their run direction was Directly Away from whatever they feared.

Hi Royell, Yes, then we are seeing the same thing! I call that the North Arcade. I think others call it the North Pergola. Please see below. Thank you for all that you do! Sincerely yours, Michael

If you add this picture and put it first in the group of pictures on Pat Speer's site, you get the two young boys standing behind the Chisms when they are on Elm Street.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9XvDxu0FAMfFOtJT9_Vr9u5o3iVcXcUoko0vCAIYIQBrJN8tOhRR8tofjBiGJcGbSPfBaJXHlAB-W2ac0Bn-rWPX87OPZt1W0EHXMSJGE5L62RGc=w1280)

Next you have the two boys inside of the North Arcade with the Chisms nearby. One boy appears to be looking out at the Elm Street Extension inside of the Arcade!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/z8FUScC3N20gDtl7qXVEueTzXvFGbpT7gOp5-ZW5B7xrUgUCdDSybPUMJXZ-amGpCi2npP1zdeRsAy18ttVUtpvkmEGon22_sppxUuDHGwy9l43v=w1280)

Then something scares the boys and the Chisms.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/r2kiixiTH11WxtlpMvZn3LzWvimV9JBKOEaHBw6rC1t42PRdkUjvKlbCBuomlUASIBu5HaD_UNdIafd1QUAfXUcGgbNtH6ObMqY8CYB4reEmhZI2=w1280)

The Chisms continue running and Marvin Faye hands off Ricky to John.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/2RJfVu83NmX5gWLakH2YthYlsyIBiBHzCgLmr_Z265Oa3X3DJpYTBzgTBh_rTbQshkK_du6sFmME_6p3xd6Tdj6v8l8VZK00tD-R4TJIsQTJJ2JU=w1280)

Then it appears that John must be carrying Ricky when he was tackled later because they thought he was a shooter.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/tMwPTlCCRNmqEOg7CBHEeQB2nVuCC60_Ke71gdek1UhEvRp9iAgjIuHYF10-NL-vpeS-oLR7fIR5yB3wIjqx6XfwvNYa3xzxJV3StkEkmY0QHs7G=w1280)



Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on September 30, 2023, 10:32:46 PM
Hi Royell, Yes, then we are seeing the same thing! I call that the North Arcade. I think others call it the North Pergola. Please see below. Thank you for all that you do! Sincerely yours, Michael

If you add this picture and put it first in the group of pictures on Pat Speer's site, you get the two young boys standing behind the Chisms when they are on Elm Street.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9XvDxu0FAMfFOtJT9_Vr9u5o3iVcXcUoko0vCAIYIQBrJN8tOhRR8tofjBiGJcGbSPfBaJXHlAB-W2ac0Bn-rWPX87OPZt1W0EHXMSJGE5L62RGc=w1280)

Next you have the two boys inside of the North Arcade with the Chisms nearby. One boy appears to be looking out at the Elm Street Extension inside of the Arcade!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/z8FUScC3N20gDtl7qXVEueTzXvFGbpT7gOp5-ZW5B7xrUgUCdDSybPUMJXZ-amGpCi2npP1zdeRsAy18ttVUtpvkmEGon22_sppxUuDHGwy9l43v=w1280)

Then something scares the boys and the Chisms.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/r2kiixiTH11WxtlpMvZn3LzWvimV9JBKOEaHBw6rC1t42PRdkUjvKlbCBuomlUASIBu5HaD_UNdIafd1QUAfXUcGgbNtH6ObMqY8CYB4reEmhZI2=w1280)

The Chisms continue running and Marvin Faye hands off Ricky to John.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/2RJfVu83NmX5gWLakH2YthYlsyIBiBHzCgLmr_Z265Oa3X3DJpYTBzgTBh_rTbQshkK_du6sFmME_6p3xd6Tdj6v8l8VZK00tD-R4TJIsQTJJ2JU=w1280)

Then it appears that John must be carrying Ricky when he was tackled later because they thought he was a shooter.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/tMwPTlCCRNmqEOg7CBHEeQB2nVuCC60_Ke71gdek1UhEvRp9iAgjIuHYF10-NL-vpeS-oLR7fIR5yB3wIjqx6XfwvNYa3xzxJV3StkEkmY0QHs7G=w1280)

    There's a Color Photograph that shows Elm St down toward the Triple Underpass. It shows 1 of the Buses going under the Triple Underpass. It also shows a "Blues Brothers", (Belushi/Ackroyd), looking gent. He is walking up The Steps and around a seated Emmitt Hudson as he moves toward the Pergola Shelter that was directly behind Zapruder. The Newman family are shown to be on their feet, and we see the back of the Dark Complected Man as he is walking down the sidewalk toward The Steps. When this photo is uncropped, it reveals a guy/kid further up The Steps area and he is looking over the picket fence in the direction of the parking lot. Do you know if this guy/kid is one of those guys you previously mentioned in the shelter area?  I don't know who took that photo or any of the story behind the guy/kid looking over the picket fence. Can you can help me here? My guess is the photo was taken roughly 2-2.5 minutes after the kill shot.       
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 01, 2023, 12:56:23 AM
    There's a Color Photograph that shows Elm St down toward the Triple Underpass. It shows 1 of the Buses going under the Triple Underpass. It also shows a "Blues Brothers", (Belushi/Ackroyd), looking gent. He is walking up The Steps and around a seated Emmitt Hudson as he moves toward the Pergola Shelter that was directly behind Zapruder. The Newman family are shown to be on their feet, and we see the back of the Dark Complected Man as he is walking down the sidewalk toward The Steps. When this photo is uncropped, it reveals a guy/kid further up The Steps area and he is looking over the picket fence in the direction of the parking lot. Do you know if this guy/kid is one of those guys you previously mentioned in the shelter area?  I don't know who took that photo or any of the story behind the guy/kid looking over the picket fence. Can you can help me here? My guess is the photo was taken roughly 2-2.5 minutes after the kill shot.       

Hi Royell, I do not know if I can help you with that particular picture. I can do this: Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

In this Cabluck photograph we have two boys running on the sidewalk. The two boys from the North Arcade have left the Arcade and are running too.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6d688d2efb1aec2b799eda49a2517016.jpg)

In the next Cabluck photograph, the four boys are running together. Robert MacNeil has just left the Press Bus and is on the sidewalk near Ike Altgens, and he is running too.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)

In this Cabluck and Cancellare combination, it has the boys labelled.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CabluckCancellarecomposite.jpg)

Here is an uncropped version of the Cancellare photograph including Robert MacNeil this time.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CancellareUnger.jpg)

This is Bond 6. Maybe this is the picture you were thinking of.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bond_6_Life_1967.jpg)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 01, 2023, 01:35:57 AM
   That car door was already open. You can see that same door being ajar on the Altgens Photo. You can see the JFK Limo in the still frame above. It's front bumper has yet to reach the TSBD front door. Per the WC, this is too early for a shot to have been fired.

Hi Royell, I just found this Gerda gif. I know it is early, but is this Lem running; if not, do you know who it is? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_24.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 01, 2023, 04:39:01 PM
After Mr. Oswald's arrest, did Conspirators B simply sit back and
------------------boggle at the sheer unexpected audacity of the establishment in trying to pass of Mr. Oswald as a LONE GUNMAN?

Mr. Pat Speer writes at patspeer.com:

"It's amazing to reflect that, in the aftermath of the assassination, Katzenbach, acting as the nation's top cop, had tried to cut-off a thorough, and one might say REAL, investigation at every opportunity, and that, when questioned about this later, he refused to take responsibility, blaming his actions on the FBI and the State Department. It was not HIS job to cater to the insecurities of FBI Director Hoover. It was Hoover's job to answer to him. It was not HIS job to assuage the concerns of the international community. It was HIS job, however, to make sure the assassination was properly and thoroughly investigated, and that those responsible were exposed and brought to justice. Even if one were to acknowledge the likelihood Oswald acted alone, one can not possibly believe that Katzenbach's actions were appropriate and reflective of a high regard for his responsibilities. Robert Kennedy may not have been a giant, but his shoes were clearly too large to be filled by Katzenbach."

Mr. Speer is quite right: Mr. Katzenbach's behavior is amazing. But it becomes fully intelligible once one understands the hidden factor in all this: the assassination was carried out by those taking advantage of a White House-approved, clandestine, false-flag missed-shots incident. All those who had been party to the originally planned false-flag operation were desperately anxious that there NOT be a proper investigation. Not because they weren't outraged by Pres. Kennedy's death. Not because they didn't want the perpetrators punished. But because they were TERRIFIED of the facts about their false-flag operation coming out-------------and what this would do to a) their slain leader's reputation, b) their own situation, c) their country's reputation.

And the person who, more than anyone in the Kennedy inner circle, feared a real investigation was the man who had felt the loss of Pres. Kennedy more acutely than anyone else: his brother, Mr. Robert Kennedy.

Far from letting Pres. Kennedy's brother down, Mr. Katzenbach was doing his bidding to the very letter.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 01, 2023, 11:12:33 PM
IMO , JFK was probably NOT in the loop on this theoretical false flag shooting plan that Mr. Ford has proposed as an alternative, because it would  have been counter productive to the “better “ relationship that JFK and Kruschev had established after the 62 Missile Crisis,  primarily to avoid nuclear war and from which the Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine was developed.

Apologies, Mr. Mason, only seeing this now (it got lost amidst the off-topic deluge courtesy of Messrs. Welch & Storing).....

I believe the Towner film gives the lie to the idea that Pres. Kennedy was out of the loop:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mZVzRGP2/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)

He's leaning forward to look at Mr. Oswald.

A change-of-mind mechanism was built into the plan: Pres. Kennedy will see the flag-waving, know from that the operation is a go, and can choose with a pre-agreed gesture-signal (brushing of hand through hair) whether or not to give the final green light. He gives it.

I believe this explains the hitherto puzzling fact of excised Towner frames just before this in Towner: the unspliced version showed Pres. Kennedy making it a little too obvious that he is keen to check out the doorway

(https://i.ibb.co/d59CmRJ/Towner-Splice.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nL2dPF8)

**

Aside from Towner, there is the unanimous public and moral support from ALL the Kennedy loyalists (starting with Mr. Robert Kennedy) for the LHO-Acted-Alone fairytale. This is the biggest CYA operation in American political history. And if they knew, then so too would Pres. Kennedy have. No way would they have let him go blind into such a terrifying ordeal as a near-miss gunfire incident.

The false-flag scenario, in short, explains what happened, what Mr. Oswald's precise role was, and why the cover-up was energetically and proactively supported by ALL of the Kennedy inner circle.

Like Mr. Oswald, they were all 'guiltocent' parties to the Dealey Plaza horror. As---------tragically----------was Pres. Kennedy himself.

"It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody could do."
(Pres. John F. Kennedy, morning of 11/22/63


He knew the Dallas motorcade would be no ordinary ride.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 01, 2023, 11:50:43 PM
Friends, it is hard to convey how foolish I find the behavior of those who continue to stake all on the PM-in-Darnell=LHO claim.

Coming up to the 60th anniversary, they are creating the utterly false impression that Mr. Oswald's claim that he "went outside to watch P. Parade" can ONLY be vindicated by the finding that he is Prayer Man in Darnell.

In doing this, and with such vehemence and such disregard for what the latest evidence shows, they are setting the stage for what will look to everyone else like the complete collapse of the Oswald-Out-Front idea.

And this just at a time when

a) the PM-in-Darnell=LHO claim has been euthanized by the clearer Darnell frame that has emerged
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg)

b) Mr. Oswald's actual location in the doorway has been found
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

2013 saw an important research push. But 2023 trumps it by a big margin.

As I have had cause to note before, the capacity of many CTers to look a gift horse in the mouth is most impressive.............. But: the penny WILL drop.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 02, 2023, 12:45:20 AM



Hi Alan, Nope! This is still Billy just waving to the President like everybody else at that moment! You can make up stuff all day long, but I don't think anybody believes it except Zeon! You however are more than welcome to continue to post anything you like! And I hope that everybody else will post too! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_32.gif)




Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 02, 2023, 03:24:30 AM
Since It does not seem logical that  JFK would have jeopardized the improved relations between USA and USSR after the successfully negotiated end to the 62 missile  crisis, then I propose that the purpose of a fake shooting episode would be to allow a more robust investigation of the anti Castro Cuban element that the FBI ( Guy Bannister) had been surveilling in New Orleans and probably had Oswald in that role of “the Marxist” in the midst of all those other white shirt and black tie Cubans… breathe…to find out more.

And so a false  flag shooter (who probably would never be found) would be labeled as a Cuban “extremist” and JFK could clean up the threat (to himself) that still existed from Bay of Pigs (Alpha 66) element by using the FBI.

What may have happened is that the Cuban BOP element working  for CIA, ( Loran Hall for example ) figured out Oswald was an informant and thru CIA were informed of the false flag plan. It was basically a CIA counter espionage against the FBI/JFK/Oswald/Bannister effort to “clean up” the CIA which had started when JFK removed Dulles as director.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 02, 2023, 04:08:03 AM
@Michael Welch: Mr.Ford and myself are often in agreement after MUCH discussion in which I play the role akin to Dr.Watson ( hopefully the smarter version one) throwing out hypotheticals to Mr. Ford ( Sherlock Holmes) and thru this dialogue perhaps a logical alternative to the WC theory may be derived.

I’m quite open to changing my mind on such hypotheticals however , especially if there is some visual detail demonstrated by some means of graphic overlay or geometry or some photographic phenomenon explanation such as GIF/ computer pixel translation of a film.

In the case of “Red Shirt Man” (RSM) in Hughes film on the front steps (west side), raising arm
up and down, having been conventionally labeled as Billy Lovelady, neither Mr. Ford nor myself arbitrarily leaped to the alternative proposition that this person may actually be Oswald instead.

We have questioned why the shirt of RSM does not seem to be the red and black square pattern of a plaid type shirt that Lovelady was wearing as in the Bronson film clip. The shirt appears to be too solid a texture of reddish/brownish tone to be the checkerboard square plaid shirt.

Maybe we are mistaken, so if Mr. Welch has some other more clear film version of Hughes or  can demonstrate that a GIFs translation of Hughes film could morph black and red squares so  the shirt would appear similar to Oswald’s solid texture reddish brownish ( pinkish?) shirt that Oswald actually had on that Friday Nov 22/63 , which shirt Oswald took off at his boarding house… then.. breathe.. that would be helpful.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 02, 2023, 04:24:03 AM
@Michael Welch: Mr.Ford and myself are often in agreement after MUCH discussion in which I play the role akin to Dr.Watson ( hopefully the smarter version one) throwing out hypotheticals to Mr. Ford ( Sherlock Holmes) and thru this dialogue perhaps a logical alternative to the WC theory may be derived.

I’m quite open to changing my mind on such hypotheticals however , especially if there is some visual detail demonstrated by some means of graphic overlay or geometry or some photographic phenomenon explanation such as GIF/ computer pixel translation of a film.

In the case of “Red Shirt Man” (RSM) in Hughes film on the front steps (west side), raising arm
up and down, having been conventionally labeled as Billy Lovelady, neither Mr. Ford nor myself arbitrarily leaped to the alternative proposition that this person may actually be Oswald instead.

We have questioned why the shirt of RSM does not seem to be the red and black square pattern of a plaid type shirt that Lovelady was wearing as in the Bronson film clip. The shirt appears to be too solid a texture of reddish/brownish tone to be the checkerboard square plaid shirt.

Maybe we are mistaken, so if Mr. Welch has some other more clear film version of Hughes or  can demonstrate that a GIFs translation of Hughes film could morph black and red squares so  the shirt would appear similar to Oswald’s solid texture reddish brownish ( pinkish?) shirt that Oswald actually had on that Friday Nov 22/63 , which shirt Oswald took off at his boarding house… then.. breathe.. that would be helpful.

Hi Zeon, I hope that you are doing well! Thank you for your explanation! In Hughes it won't get any better because he is filming so far away. However, Ike Altgens picture is of the same person, probably within two or three seconds. It is definitely Billy with his shirt unbuttoned on the other side of Carl. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/16832.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 02, 2023, 05:24:29 AM
Well, Mr.Welsh, here is one of the reasons I thought which supported MrFords proposal that Red Shirt Man (RSM) in  Hughes film was Oswald and not Lovelady:

1. RSM is raising his hand up and then down and it’s not likely a “salute” but is more likely a bottle being raised to mouth. If so, then there’s only 2  possible persons who could be outside on the front steps who would have a bottle of coke, Oswald and or  Lovelady, and so the question is at what time did each buy their respective  cokes?
 
Lovelady had to have bought his coke several minutes BEFORE 12:00pm because the women of the 2nd floor office are occupying the 2nd floor lunchroom from 12:00-12:15 approx, thus they would have seen Lovelady or he vice versa see them if Lovelady bought the coke after 12:00pm.

Lovelady could not have bought the coke after 12:15 either since he was OUTSIDE on the front steps  with Sarah Stanton and Bill Shelly by that time.

That means that Billy Lovelady had  a coke from about 11:59 until 12:29 if he is RSM in Hughes so there is a question would not a 16 0z bottle of soda have been consumed in a 30 minute period of time?

Oswald on the other hand did not likely buy his coke until at the earliest 12:17 which would be just AFTER he was seen seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom by Carolyn Arnold.

So Oswald only had his coke for approx 11 minutes if he is RSM in Hughes film, therefore  there is higher probability that  there would be some % of liquid still left in the bottle at 12:29.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 02, 2023, 06:47:50 AM
Well, Mr.Welsh, here is one of the reasons I thought which supported MrFords proposal that Red Shirt Man (RSM) in  Hughes film was Oswald and not Lovelady:

1. RSM is raising his hand up and then down and it’s not likely a “salute” but is more likely a bottle being raised to mouth. If so, then there’s only 2  possible persons who could be outside on the front steps who would have a bottle of coke, Oswald and or  Lovelady, and so the question is at what time did each buy their respective  cokes?
 
Lovelady had to have bought his coke several minutes BEFORE 12:00pm because the women of the 2nd floor office are occupying the 2nd floor lunchroom from 12:00-12:15 approx, thus they would have seen Lovelady or he vice versa see them if Lovelady bought the coke after 12:00pm.

Lovelady could not have bought the coke after 12:15 either since he was OUTSIDE on the front steps  with Sarah Stanton and Bill Shelly by that time.

That means that Billy Lovelady had  a coke from about 11:59 until 12:29 if he is RSM in Hughes so there is a question would not a 16 0z bottle of soda have been consumed in a 30 minute period of time?

Oswald on the other hand did not likely buy his coke until at the earliest 12:17 which would be just AFTER he was seen seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom by Carolyn Arnold.

So Oswald only had his coke for approx 11 minutes if he is RSM in Hughes film, therefore  there is higher probability that  there would be some % of liquid still left in the bottle at 12:29.

Hi Zeon, Please call me Michael. The Coke is irrelevant because you have clear photographic evidence taken within three seconds of the same person. However if you concentrate on the Coke, it appears the right hand goes too high, and he would be drinking only a sip at his forehead! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on October 02, 2023, 08:48:03 AM
Hi Zeon, Please call me Michael. The Coke is irrelevant because you have clear photographic evidence taken within three seconds of the same person. However if you concentrate on the Coke, it appears the right hand goes too high, and he would be drinking only a sip at his forehead! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael

He wasn't anywhere near outside. He was busy upstairs shooting the president.  You and Ralphie oughta get a room.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 02, 2023, 09:34:48 AM
He wasn't anywhere near outside. He was busy upstairs shooting the president.  You and Ralphie oughta get a room.

Hi Mark. I hope that you are doing well! Where upstairs? The Snipers Nest was occupied by Bonnie Ray Williams at least until 12:25pm. Both Jim Leavelle and Jesse Curry said they did not have enough evidence to convict Oswald. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom between 12:15 and 12:25 pm. Amos Euins saw a negro man with a bald spot in the Sniper's Nest. Howard Brennan saw a man wearing khaki clothing in the Sniper's Nest. But you knew all of this already, right? The Sniper's Nest was a crowded place, but nobody saw Lee! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 02, 2023, 09:37:17 AM
He wasn't anywhere near outside. He was busy upstairs shooting the president.  You and Ralphie oughta get a room.

Tell that to Robert Edwards and Ronald Fischer who both saw a man wearing a white/off white, open-necked shirt in the SN. An item of clothing Oswald wasn't wearing that day and didn't have in his possessions.
Incidentally, it is the same garment worn by the man Arnold Rowland observes on the 6th floor 15 minutes before the motorcade arrives in Dealey Plaza.
Which is 10 minutes before Oswald's apparent observation of Norman and Jarman entering the rear of the TSBD building on the first floor.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 02, 2023, 10:22:47 AM
Since It does not seem logical that  JFK would have jeopardized the improved relations between USA and USSR after the successfully negotiated end to the 62 missile  crisis,

It is a myth that Pres. Kennedy promised First Secretary Khruschev not to invade Cuba after the missile crisis: such a guarantee was made dependent upon Pres. Castro's allowing UN on-site inspections. Pres. Castro's refusal to allow such led in Spring '63 to the quiet development by the Kennedy administration of the C-Day coup plan for 12/1/63.

The false-flag incident of 11/22 was cooked up to give Pres. Kennedy a politically potent pretext for C-Day. The 'known pro-Castroite' Mr. Oswald's involvement (but not as shooter, obviously) in the deeply provocative 'pro-Castro' stunt was to be an important element in this false-flag hoax.

And Attorney General Robert Kennedy was at the very heart of the C-Day planning.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 02, 2023, 11:35:51 AM
Mr. Oswald's actual location in the doorway has been found
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

At the time these Hughes frames are taken,
-----------------Mr. Oswald is standing over west in the doorway, on the fourth step. He takes a sip of Coke. We see no flesh of his LEFT hand, because he is holding the flag behind him
-----------------A laid-back Mr. Lovelady is SITTING on one of the upper steps, content with getting a glimpse of Pres. Kennedy when he passes right by the building. He has a decent enough view, as there is no one standing in front of him.

But then, without warning, and just as Pres. Kennedy is about to come into Mr. Lovelady's view, Mr. Oswald blocks his view by waving a flag--not up high, but to his side

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZVzRGP2/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)

An irritated Mr. Lovelady RISES TO HIS FEET in order to see over the flag:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgQkQMjh/Bell-full-150.gif)

And so, by the time of Altgens & Wiegman, Mr. Lovelady is shown standing over near the center rail of the doorway.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 02, 2023, 11:47:40 AM
How many people saw Mr. Oswald out there? is one question.
How many people SAID they saw him out there? is another altogether.

One might compare this to the curious result we get if we ask the question:
How many people SAID they saw Mr. Oswald leave the building several minutes after the assassination?
Officially, the answer is: not a single person.
Do we conclude from this that Mr. Oswald never left the building? Hardly!

However, we do know that one person DID say they saw him leave by the front door: Mr. Billy Lovelady, that same day, told Mr. James Jarman he saw Mr. Oswald being cleared by Mr. Truly and a cop at the front door.

But------------and here's the point-------------Mr. Lovelady told Mr. Jarman this before the cover-up had kicked in. In all his later, on-the-record statements, Mr. Lovelady never mentions it. Were it not for Mr. Jarman's chance mention of what Mr. Lovelady had informally told him shortly after the assassination, we would never know about it.

I have no doubt that several people saw Mr. Oswald leave by the front door several minutes after the assassination.
And I have no doubt that several people saw Mr. Oswald standing out front as Pres. Kennedy passed the building.

Those who wish to dismiss the idea of Mr. Oswald's being out front for the motorcade on the basis that no one SAID they saw him there need to tell us if they dismiss, on the very same basis, the idea of Mr. Oswald's having left the building minutes after the assassination.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 02, 2023, 12:27:22 PM
SS Inspector Thomas J. Kelley writes this in his report on Mr. Oswald's interrogation on the Saturday morning:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5nPRrsW/Kelley-LHO-denials.jpg)

Seems clearcut, right?

Yet FBI Agent Bookhout writes this in HIS report on the same interrogation:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz9FLyvX/Bookhout-LHO-denials2.jpg)

Only TWO denials instead of Insp. Kelley's tally of THREE:
-I didn't view the motorcade
-I didn't shoot Pres. Kennedy
-I didn't shoot Gov. Connally

Remarkable that Agent Bookhout wouldn't see fit to mention this eyebrow-raising admission from Mr. Oswald...........

But there is more that is remarkable here. One would think that the accused assassin's specific claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination would be the single most important thing an interrogation report would need to cover. But no. Neither Insp. Kelley nor Agent Bookhout go there. Nor does anyone else.

In fact, the ONLY time in ANY of the official interrogation reports that we get ANY idea of where exactly Mr. Oswald said he was at the time of the assassination is in the joint interrogation report written by Agents Bookhout and Hosty on the Sunday: "on the first floor". Did Mr. Oswald really give such a vague response?

Nope. Since 2019 we know what Mr. Oswald had really said in his very first interrogation: "went outside to watch P. Parade". Agent Hosty puts this in his draft interrogation report, but it is absorbed by the weaselly formula "on the first floor" in the Bookhout/Hosty joint report. (Remember: we're talking about the identical same interrogation session here.) The only place that could conceivably be both "outside" and "on the first floor" is up in the front entrance. The Bookhout/Hosty report is resorting to creative semantics to take Mr. Oswald off the front steps.

Other than that, NONE of the official interrogation reports wants to talk about where exactly Mr. Oswald said he was.

Quite bizarre-------------and explicable only if Mr. Oswald's answer to that question was too dangerous to be officially memorialized.

**

But back to Insp. Kelley VS Agent Bookhout on what Mr. Oswald said in the Sat morning interrogation. Did he or did he not deny having viewed the motorcade?

Did Agent Bookhout really miss Mr. Oswald's admission that he didn't view the parade? Or did he consider it of insufficient importance to mention in his report? Hardly!

Either Mr. Oswald really said this, or Insp. Kelley misremembered/invented it.

It's probably the latter, but let's take a little time to explore the former scenario: Mr. Oswald told Insp. Kelley he didn't view the parade.

Seems damning, right?

Well, put yourself in Mr. Oswald's shoes. He is being asked by an SS man if he viewed the parade. He has assumed all along that the SS (or some of them at least) were in on the false-flag operation. So he thinks he is being tested: Are you going to keep your cover, or are you going to talk about what you did in that front entrance?

And so he is much more guarded in his response to any question about his parade-time whereabouts. In the first interrogation, he freely told Capt. Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade". But here, he is mindful of who's asking. And so he gives a response that telegraphs the message: 'Look, I'm being a good boy. I haven't told them anything about what I did in that front entrance'.

So at odds is his answer with his earlier "went outside to watch P. Parade" line, that Agent Bookhout is taken aback. He senses that Mr. Oswald is playing a game. So, in his interrogation report, he decides to just not go there.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 02, 2023, 02:19:19 PM
Apologies, Mr. Mason, only seeing this now (it got lost amidst the off-topic deluge courtesy of Messrs. Welch & Storing).....

I believe the Towner film gives the lie to the idea that Pres. Kennedy was out of the loop:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mZVzRGP2/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)

He's leaning forward to look at Mr. Oswald.

A change-of-mind mechanism was built into the plan: Pres. Kennedy will see the flag-waving, know from that the operation is a go, and can choose with a pre-agreed gesture-signal (brushing of hand through hair) whether or not to give the final green light. He gives it.

I believe this explains the hitherto puzzling fact of excised Towner frames just before this in Towner: the unspliced version showed Pres. Kennedy making it a little too obvious that he is keen to check out the doorway

(https://i.ibb.co/d59CmRJ/Towner-Splice.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nL2dPF8)

I believe this is also the reason why the Zapruder film frames showing the turn from Houston on to Elm were cut
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on October 02, 2023, 04:05:03 PM
Friends, it is hard to convey how foolish I find the behavior of those who continue to stake all on the PM-in-Darnell=LHO claim.

Coming up to the 60th anniversary, they are creating the utterly false impression that Mr. Oswald's claim that he "went outside to watch P. Parade" can ONLY be vindicated by the finding that he is Prayer Man in Darnell.

In doing this, and with such vehemence and such disregard for what the latest evidence shows, they are setting the stage for what will look to everyone else like the complete collapse of the Oswald-Out-Front idea.

And this just at a time when

a) the PM-in-Darnell=LHO claim has been euthanized by the clearer Darnell frame that has emerged
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg)

b) Mr. Oswald's actual location in the doorway has been found
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)

2013 saw an important research push. But 2023 trumps it by a big margin.

As I have had cause to note before, the capacity of many CTers to look a gift horse in the mouth is most impressive.............. But: the penny WILL drop.  Thumb1:

    Going beyond the hoopla surrounding Prayer Man, I thought the discovery of the "Hosty Notes" itself should have received far more attention/scrutiny from the JFK Assassination Research Community. The hand writting on those alleged "Hosty Notes"  should have been analyzed by multiple credible sources followed by an exhaustive combing of the National Archives for other JFK Assassination related material that has been overlooked within the catacombs of that labyrinth for the last 60 years. Just me, but once again the JFK Assassination Research Community has FAILED to focus its' attention on unearthing FACTS vs chasing media attention = $$$. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on October 02, 2023, 04:23:21 PM
Hi Royell, I do not know if I can help you with that particular picture. I can do this: Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

In this Cabluck photograph we have two boys running on the sidewalk. The two boys from the North Arcade have left the Arcade and are running too.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6d688d2efb1aec2b799eda49a2517016.jpg)

In the next Cabluck photograph, the four boys are running together. Robert MacNeil has just left the Press Bus and is on the sidewalk near Ike Altgens, and he is running too.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)

In this Cabluck and Cancellare combination, it has the boys labelled.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CabluckCancellarecomposite.jpg)

Here is an uncropped version of the Cancellare photograph including Robert MacNeil this time.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CancellareUnger.jpg)

This is Bond 6. Maybe this is the picture you were thinking of.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bond_6_Life_1967.jpg)

    Michael - Thanks but none of these is the photo I am looking for. Bond gets close to that same time frame and LOS, but still no cigar. The Photo I seek is highlighted in "The Killing Of A President" by Groden on pages 54-57. Personally, I believe that "Gordon Arnold Area" from the picket fence over to the short block wall is an area on the Knoll that we do Not know jack about. Darnell has some blurry frames from down inside that general area, but nothing anybody can hang their hat on as to DETAIL within this possible shooter space. This is the same area that Lee Bowers was eyeballing shortly before the JFK Motorcade went onto Houston and then quickly onto Elm. From his 2nd story railroad tower vantage point, Bowers was looking Straight Down both sides of the Picket Fence. That day, nobody had a better look at both sides of the Picket Fence Area before, during, and after the JFK Assassination than Lee Bowers. Nobody.   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 02, 2023, 07:41:32 PM
@Michael Welch: Thank you for your input on Billy Lovelady in Weigman film and the Altgens 6 photo which do coincide.

But as Mr. Ford has already explained, the Hughes film had Lovelady right adjacent to the west wall and so it’s a question if Lovejady did actually move to the center handrail position during the Towner film and if that’s  the explanation for this swath of red seen thru the foliage in Towner film that’s too wide ti be just one person OR..

Are there TWO persons with reddish shirts and Oswald was the one in Hughes against the west wall while Lovelady was at the center hand rail ( middle ) of the steps but was obscured in Hughes film by the blue shirt man in the pedistal?

I think Alan and I arrived at this latter scenario because of the 4 anomalies in Altgens 6 photo and Weigman film:

1. The strange shadow on the right side of Lovelady’s body in Weigman film clip
2. The Cronkite version of Altgens 6 photo which shows what appears to be a forearm raised up with what looks like a bottle (darkhorizontal slash) that cuts across the white shirt part of Loveladys body.
3. The 2nd version of Altgens 6 photo which shows the firearm ( and bottle) have been basically erased by coloring over it with the shirt texture pattern of Loveladys shirt.
4. This right arm shirt sleeve of Loveladys has NO HAND at the end of it AND the end of the sleeve ( cuff) weirdly looks like it’s overlapping part of the face of the black man whom is supposed to be Carl Jones , ( big guy with cream colored long sleeve shirt ).
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 02, 2023, 07:47:30 PM
    Michael - Thanks but none of these is the photo I am looking for. Bond gets close to that same time frame and LOS, but still no cigar. The Photo I seek is highlighted in "The Killing Of A President" by Groden on pages 54-57. Personally, I believe that "Gordon Arnold Area" from the picket fence over to the short block wall is an area on the Knoll that we do Not know jack about. Darnell has some blurry frames from down inside that general area, but nothing anybody can hang their hat on as to DETAIL within this possible shooter space. This is the same area that Lee Bowers was eyeballing shortly before the JFK Motorcade went onto Houston and then quickly onto Elm. From his 2nd story railroad tower vantage point, Bowers was looking Straight Down both sides of the Picket Fence. That day, nobody had a better look at both sides of the Picket Fence Area before, during, and after the JFK Assassination than Lee Bowers. Nobody.

Hi Royell, Yes, I agree with you again! And in this Gerda gif, it looks like Black Dog Man may be holding some sort of weapon. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_16.gif)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_27.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Duncan MacRae on October 02, 2023, 10:36:21 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/couple.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on October 02, 2023, 11:56:42 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/couple.jpg)

      Eyeball where that wall measures up to the guy in the white slacks. Now envision an adult seated on that bench directly behind the white slacks guy. The head/shoulders  of an adult seated on that bench would have been higher than the wall and therefore visible on photos/film footage of this area. No JFK assassination photos or film footage shows anyone seated on that bench. Sitzman is the only JFK Assassination eyewitness to have claimed to of seen anyone seated on that bench before and immediately after the assassination. If the sole claim of Sitzman is going to be accepted as Fact, is the sole claim of Gordon Arnold also being given this same rubber stamping?   
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 03, 2023, 03:39:58 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/couple.jpg)

Hi Duncan, Thank you for your reply! As far as I can tell, after studying this some more, Black Dog Man remains a Man. The young black couple are there, but further down by the wooden seat where they break their bottle or bottles which Marilyn hears and the liquid is seen on the concrete in Darnell. Thank you for your valuable input! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Royell Storing on October 03, 2023, 04:36:40 PM
Hi Duncan, Thank you for your reply! As far as I can tell, after studying this some more, Black Dog Man remains a Man. The young black couple are there, but further down by the wooden seat where they break their bottle or bottles which Marilyn hears and the liquid is seen on the concrete in Darnell. Thank you for your valuable input! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael

    Sitzman's claim of a Black Couple being seated on that bench NEVER mentioned a baby. Sitzman said as the JFK Limo went under the Triple Underpass, the Black Couple then got up and ran Up the steps as they threw their coke bottles down/breaking them. Again, NO MENTION of a baby being carried by either of these 2 people as they allegedly raced Up The Steps. (And, consider how foolishly difficult it would be to juggle a baby in 1 arm while taking the time to slam a coke bottle to the ground). Importantly, if this couple is running Up The Steps, they would be facing Sitzman. A baby being carried by 1 of them would clearly be visible. Sitzman probably saw a Black Couple doing all of this, (no baby), at a different point in time. Unfortunately, the gaping holes in the Sitzman story does Not stop people from latching onto it in order to try and explain The Black Dog Man. Remember when looking at any of the Black Dog Man photos, bear in mind that the portion of the picket fence that runs directly down toward Elm St actually extends further down toward Elm St than the Black Dog Man Nook/Position does. Any "light" blotches you see behind the Black Dog Man figure are actually in line with the Side of the picket fence. These light blotches are roughly in the same area that Gordon Arnold claimed to have been standing/filming that day. 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 03, 2023, 04:45:11 PM
@Michael Welch: Thank you for your input on Billy Lovelady in Weigman film and the Altgens 6 photo which do coincide.

But as Mr. Ford has already explained, the Hughes film had Lovelady right adjacent to the west wall and so it’s a question if Lovejady did actually move to the center handrail position during the Towner film and if that’s  the explanation for this swath of red seen thru the foliage in Towner film that’s too wide ti be just one person OR..

Are there TWO persons with reddish shirts and Oswald was the one in Hughes against the west wall while Lovelady was at the center hand rail ( middle ) of the steps but was obscured in Hughes film by the blue shirt man in the pedistal?

I think Alan and I arrived at this latter scenario because of the 4 anomalies in Altgens 6 photo and Weigman film:

1. The strange shadow on the right side of Lovelady’s body in Weigman film clip
2. The Cronkite version of Altgens 6 photo which shows what appears to be a forearm raised up with what looks like a bottle (darkhorizontal slash) that cuts across the white shirt part of Loveladys body.
3. The 2nd version of Altgens 6 photo which shows the firearm ( and bottle) have been basically erased by coloring over it with the shirt texture pattern of Loveladys shirt.
4. This right arm shirt sleeve of Loveladys has NO HAND at the end of it AND the end of the sleeve ( cuff) weirdly looks like it’s overlapping part of the face of the black man whom is supposed to be Carl Jones , ( big guy with cream colored long sleeve shirt ).

Hi Zeon, After studying the Hughes gif some more, there are not two people in red shirts. What happens is somebody, possibly Jay Skaggs, comes over from the right hand side and takes a picture. They end up in between Billy and Maddie but are actually closer to Elm Street. Do you happen to have a link to Conkrite's Altgens 6? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2023, 05:36:38 AM
[Mr. Doudna is] very right to query the assumption that Prayer Man in Wiegman must be the same person as Prayer Man in Darnell. For some time now I myself have been querying this assumption, which I suspect has caused no end of confusion.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8KJy27F/PM-Wiegman-Darnell.gif)

PM/Darnell is on the landing; PM/Wiegman is down at least one step.
Their bodies are oriented differently (compare the position of the left elbows).

Friends, forget Prayer Woman in Darnell for a moment. (Of forever, if you're being sensible.)

Where exactly is Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman standing?

(https://i.postimg.cc/43jHvjc6/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

Not on the landing, that's for sure.
Look how low his right elbow goes when it's lowered. Look how close it comes to the narrow column of brickwork behind the white column.
And look at the height of this right elbow, when it's raised, in relation to the top of the black man in front's head.

Now compare Red Shirt Man in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/43jHvjc6/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

If he were to half-raise his LEFT arm the way Prayer Man in Wiegman's is raised, it would come up to the same height.
When he raises his RIGHT hand to his face the way Prayer Man in Wiegman does, it comes up to the same height.

Prayer Man in Wiegman appears to be standing on the same step (the fourth from the bottom) as Red Shirt Man in Hughes.

NB! Red Shirt Man in Hughes LOOKS closer to the black man than does Prayer Man in Wiegman. But that's only because of the different angles at which Messrs. Hughes & Wiegman are filming. Note that Red Shirt Man in Hughes is not in the black man's shade: he is catching all that direct sunlight. This would not be happening were he not at a significant distance behind him. Note also that Red Shirt Man in Hughes is right over close to the column and is still catching a whole lotta sunlight. (I point this out, in part, for the benefit of the fools who argued that Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman, over near the center rail, is half-shadowed due to 'natural shadow cast by the western column'---------complete fantasy.)

It appears that
------Prayer Man in Wiegman is on the fourth step up (same as Mr. Lovelady in the LATTER Wiegman frames)
------there is someone up on the landing behind him.

Just like the configuration we see in Hughes, where a head can be seen behind Red Shirt Man:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

So: what is it that's stopping us from believing that Prayer Man in Wiegman is simply the same person as Red Shirt Man in Hughes?

Answer: shadow.

New Question: Can a person stand where Prayer Man in Wiegman is standing, and facing forward out of the doorway, without catching a healthy amount of direct sunlight on much of his body?

Red Shirt Man in Hughes certainly can't do it. So how is it that Prayer Man in Wiegman is able to pull it off?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2023, 05:46:39 AM
New Question: Can a person stand where Prayer Man in Wiegman is standing, and facing forward out of the doorway, without catching a healthy amount of direct sunlight on much of his body?

Red Shirt Man in Hughes certainly can't do it. So how is it that Prayer Man in Wiegman is able to pull it off?

Ah yes, shadow, shadow.

The preposterous shadow down Mr. Lovelady's side in Wiegman cannot be explained as a natural phenomenon. Only one serious attempt has been made to do so, and the results were, to put it mildly, less than happy:

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpWj6GqL/Hackerott-Wiegman-Lovelady.gif)

IF (and it's still an if) Prayer Man in Wiegman is Mr. Oswald, just as he was Red Shirt Man in Hughes, then we can identify how the 'investigating' authorities made the easy identification of him on the steps impossible: using aerial imaging, they added fake shadow not just down Mr. Lovelady's side but down much of Mr. Oswald's body too.

And then they told Mr. Lovelady to pretend to have been in the Oswald spot, way over by the west wall of the doorway.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2023, 05:56:41 AM
IF (and it's still an if) Prayer Man in Wiegman is Mr. Oswald, just as he was Red Shirt Man in Hughes, then we can identify how the 'investigating' authorities made the easy identification of him on the steps impossible: using aerial imaging, they added fake shadow not just down Mr. Lovelady's side but down much of Mr. Oswald's body too.

And then they told Mr. Lovelady to pretend to have been in the Oswald spot, way over by the west wall of the doorway.

The above scenario would obviously have Mr. Oswald remain on the steps at least until the shots have been fired. As such, it fails to account for this confusing item we see in Wiegman:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYFzDTQ/Wiegman-object-in-background.gif)

What could this be?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2023, 12:47:09 PM
At the time these Hughes frames are taken,
-----------------Mr. Oswald is standing over west in the doorway, on the fourth step. He takes a sip of Coke. We see no flesh of his LEFT hand, because he is holding the flag behind him
-----------------A laid-back Mr. Lovelady is SITTING on one of the upper steps, content with getting a glimpse of Pres. Kennedy when he passes right by the building. He has a decent enough view, as there is no one standing in front of him.

But then, without warning, and just as Pres. Kennedy is about to come into Mr. Lovelady's view, Mr. Oswald blocks his view by waving a flag--not up high, but to his side

And this is what Towner shows. Look closely at the flag when it is at higher elevation------------we get a glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's shirt behind it. Because Mr. Lovelady is sitting there on one of the top steps, just like Mr. Shelley said:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTMqDmhM/Belltowner-saturation-towner.gif)

As a result of having his view rudely blocked by what Mr. Oswald is waving right in front of him, Mr. Lovelady rises to his feet. Which is what is happening in these Bell frames, which show the doorway just seconds after Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgQkQMjh/Bell-full-150.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 04, 2023, 03:43:01 PM
And this is what Towner shows. Look closely at the flag when it is at higher elevation------------we get a glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's shirt behind it.

And not just his shirt: his head too-------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/SshRJctt/Belltowner-towner-slow.gif)

Remember: if Mr. Lovelady is Red Shirt Man in Hughes, there shouldn't yet be anyone in that area behind where the flag is. But there is someone there. It's Mr. Lovelady, who is SITTING on one of the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 05, 2023, 01:10:01 AM
@Michael Welsh: I went back and found  page 252 of this thread is where Alan and myself and Chris began our discussion about the horizontal swath of red that we were seeing in the magnified GIF of Bell film and that it appeared that  (thru the foliage) perhaps 2 persons with reddish shirts were in proximity  to each ON THE FRONT STEPs!

Now Mr. Ford has proposed that Lovelady was SITTING at that time on the steps and I think I agree, because of the slight bit of red that’s on the left side of the white element just to the left of the blue shirt man on the pedestal as seen in Hughes film gif.

That would explain the anomaly of the shadow being added to Lovelady in Weigman film because Oswald was against the west wall when Lovelady was sitting on a few steps near the center handrail.

Lovelady stood up just in time to be seen in Weigman while at the same time Oswald was about to display his sign/banner and Oswald  had moved into the spot next to Lovelady which required Oswald be removed from Weigman film using some sort of method of darkening which resulted in thus weird shadow.

Question:

Why however the Cronkite version of Altgens 6 photo showing what appears to be a light skin tone forearm ( thus cannot be Carl Jones dark brown skin) with light gray sleeves  rolled up,( can’t be Jones either because his sleeves were NOT  rolled up)  holding a bottle?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 05, 2023, 02:05:13 AM
After scaling and stabilizing that area, it appears as if the black gentleman against the west wall rises up possibly one step. Watch just to the left of the red clothing, it comes out from beneath the big shadow block. The orientation of those two appear to match what is seen in Hughes (except maybe the step up part) a few seconds earlier. But, still no ID on what appears to be the red shirted arm farthest east.
You may have to play it repeatedly for eye adjustments.
https://vimeo.com/870842433?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/870842433?share=copy)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 05, 2023, 02:32:22 AM
In the Towner film, There’s definitely some person behind the black man (Carl Jones?) at lower west side steps. This person is either moving or attempting to display something and this at the SAME TIME that the red and white shirt element  (Lovelady?)   by the center hand rail.

So it’s improbable imo that  it’s some kind of kind of motion blur effect of Lovelady moving from west wall to center handrail position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 05, 2023, 04:46:00 AM
After scaling and stabilizing that area, it appears as if the black gentleman against the west wall rises up possibly one step. Watch just to the left of the red clothing, it comes out from beneath the big shadow block. The orientation of those two appear to match what is seen in Hughes (except maybe the step up part) a few seconds earlier. But, still no ID on what appears to be the red shirted arm farthest east.
You may have to play it repeatedly for eye adjustments.
https://vimeo.com/870842433?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/870842433?share=copy)

Hi Chris and Zeon, This is a mystery lady in blue carrying a camera and Rosemary Willis in white and red, running from right to left, and they end up in between Billy and Maddie but are closer to the camera on the south side of Elm Street. They add the various blue or white, and red to Hughes. Thank you both for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_11.gif)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 05, 2023, 06:42:13 AM
Michael,
I don't see any objects in Hughes, that represent what we see in Bell, relating to what appears to be the red arm sleeve.
It looks like a left arm connected to a person(maybe a step lower) who would be facing more towards the person labeled as Lovelady in Hughes.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg143009.html#msg143009 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg143009.html#msg143009)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 05, 2023, 02:12:39 PM
Michael,
I don't see any objects in Hughes, that represent what we see in Bell, relating to what appears to be the red arm sleeve.
It looks like a left arm connected to a person(maybe a step lower) who would be facing more towards the person labeled as Lovelady in Hughes.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg143009.html#msg143009 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2639.msg143009.html#msg143009)

Hi Chris, After studying this some more, it could be this mysterious lady in Hughes who is wearing a red dress, a white overcoat, and a white hat who ends up in that spot! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_2.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-Red-Shirts.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 05, 2023, 03:35:38 PM
Friends, forget Prayer Woman in Darnell for a moment. (Of forever, if you're being sensible.)

Where exactly is Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman standing?

(https://i.postimg.cc/43jHvjc6/prayer-man-in-wiegman-gif.gif)

Not on the landing, that's for sure.

PM-in-Wiegman VS. PM-in-Darnell

The positions of the respective LEFT ELBOWS tell an important story
-----------two different standing heights
-----------two different latitudes
-----------two different orientations
==========> PM-in-Wiegman standing a step or two down from the landing, and facing south out of the doorway; PM-in-Darnell standing on the landing, and turned south-east

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSdk3Fv6/PM-Wiegman-Darnell-slow.gif)

The feet of PM-in-Wiegman are planted on a spot EAST of the spot where the feet of PM-in-Darnell are planted; PM-in-Wiegman is standing on a lower level; PM-in-Wiegman has their body facing forward out of the doorway............... yet PM-in-Wiegman is catching no more direct sunlight than PM-in-Darnell, whose body is turned such as to avoid direct sunlight.

Strange!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 05, 2023, 03:51:41 PM
-----------------A laid-back Mr. Lovelady is SITTING on one of the upper steps, content with getting a glimpse of Pres. Kennedy when he passes right by the building. He has a decent enough view, as there is no one standing in front of him.

But then, without warning, and just as Pres. Kennedy is about to come into Mr. Lovelady's view, Mr. Oswald blocks his view by waving a flag--not up high, but to his side

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZVzRGP2/TOWNER-UNGER-FULL-speed.gif)

Friends, we will never dispel the confusion that has reigned for six decades unless we attain clarity on the 'guiltocent' Mr. Oswald's impossible predicament in custody.

For us, his going out on to the front steps for the motorcade ===========> his INNOCENCE (of the crime of shooting Pres. Kennedy)

For him, his going out on to the front steps and what he did out there =============> his GUILT (of involvement in a 'pro-Castro' conspiracy)

Mr. Oswald NEVER signed up for involvement in an assassination of Pres. Kennedy. What he signed up for was involvement in a non-lethal missed-shots false-flag event. And then, once the assassination happened, he was scapegoated by those scurrying to hide the existence of, and their own involvement in, the planned false-flag event.

A lesser man would have screamed to the press about the false-flag operation. But Mr. Oswald kept his cover------------and was murdered for his pains.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 05, 2023, 04:15:59 PM
Friends, we will never dispel the confusion that has reigned for six decades unless we attain clarity on the 'guiltocent' Mr. Oswald's impossible predicament in custody.

For us, his going out on to the front steps for the motorcade ===========> his INNOCENCE (of the crime of shooting Pres. Kennedy)

For him, his going out on to the front steps and what he did out there =============> his GUILT (of involvement in a 'pro-Castro' conspiracy)

By the same token.................

The Warren Gullibles could, in principle (if not necessarily in fact), have a long evidentiary wish-list granted:

-Connection of Mr. Oswald to the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle
-Authenticity of backyard photos
-Unusual behavior from Mr. Oswald on morning 11/22
-Mr. Oswald's fingerprints on long paper bag & SN box
-Mr. Oswald acting like a guilty man post-assassination
-Lies told by Mr. Oswald in custody

The problem for the Warren Gullibles is that none of these will ever be nearly enough to credibly put Mr. Oswald in that window in that building at that time with that rifle firing those shots.

Worse still, all of the above would not only fit the false-flag scenario too, it would fit it better than it ever did the LN scenario.

And that's the very best it could ever conceivably get for the poor deluded Warren Gullibles. Because from there on in, we'd be looking at all the evidence they do NOT like talking about...................
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 05, 2023, 06:51:46 PM
Hi Chris, After studying this some more, it could be this mysterious lady in Hughes who is wearing a red dress, a white overcoat, and a white hat who ends up in that spot! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_2.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/Bell-Red-Shirts.png)
She appears to be on the south side of Elm. I believe that's her starting near the corner in Hughes, stepping up onto the curb. If she made it to the location of the red sleeve seen in Bell, it doesn't appear as if she would be tall enough to land where we see the red sleeve from Bell's pespective. imo

Here's a back/forth loop for tracking movement.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 05, 2023, 09:30:41 PM
She appears to be on the south side of Elm. I believe that's her starting near the corner in Hughes, stepping up onto the curb. If she made it to the location of the red sleeve seen in Bell, it doesn't appear as if she would be tall enough to land where we see the red sleeve from Bell's pespective. imo

Here's a back/forth loop for tracking movement.

Hi Chris, Yes, that looks like her! To me after studying it some more, it looks like the Mystery camera carrying Lady in Blue, Rosemary Willis, and the Lady in White with the Red Sleeves showing, all bunch up together in between Billy and Maddie on film. There is a white head and a red dress left arm that is sorted out in the Bell film to the right of Billy. That is why it looks like the person is facing Billy because it is the lady in the red dress and the white coat and white hat facing West on South Elm Street. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Duncan MacRae on October 05, 2023, 10:17:03 PM
Hi Chris, Yes, that looks like her! To me after studying it some more, it looks like the Mystery camera carrying Lady in Blue, Rosemary Willis, and the Lady in White with the Red Sleeves showing, all bunch up together in between Billy and Maddie on film. There is a white head and a red dress left arm that is sorted out in the Bell film to the right of Billy. That is why it looks like the person is facing Billy because it is the lady in the red dress and the white coat and white hat facing West on South Elm Street. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

The Mystery Camera Lady
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 05, 2023, 10:48:03 PM
Hi Chris, Yes, that looks like her! To me after studying it some more, it looks like the Mystery camera carrying Lady in Blue, Rosemary Willis, and the Lady in White with the Red Sleeves showing, all bunch up together in between Billy and Maddie on film. There is a white head and a red dress left arm that is sorted out in the Bell film to the right of Billy. That is why it looks like the person is facing Billy because it is the lady in the red dress and the white coat and white hat facing West on South Elm Street. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Anyone on the south side of Elm St, who ends up in front of the steps from Bell's perspective, is too low to be the red sleeve person. In fact, look at the people running towards the steps across the street from the TSBD. The person with the red sleeve is high up on the TSBD steps.
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Nhv.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 05, 2023, 10:58:56 PM
These two were on the steps I believe. If the woman in red has long sleeves on, my bet is on her, as that color more closely matches the colors we see in Bell.
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Nh5.png)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 05, 2023, 11:48:22 PM
The Mystery Camera Lady

Thank you Duncan! Thank you Chris! The Mystery Camera Lady in Blue does appear to be stopping to take a picture and would bunch up with Rosemary Willis and the Lady in White. However, like you say Chris, they would be too low in Bell. Ironically Chris, the two people you point out as possibilities to be on the steps are not on the steps. Roy Edward Lewis is out on the grass near the Presidential limo, and Carolyn Arnold is standing out on Elm Street with her girlfriends! Thank you both for everything that you do! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 06, 2023, 01:13:36 AM
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Nhv.gif)

I would caution against the assumption that the figure taken to be Mr. Lovelady in Bell is too wide to be one person.

Sure, when one looks at the women lower in the frame (i.e. the women out front in the line of spectators on the north side of Elm), he looks too big.

But check out 'Cowboy Man In White', or Mr. Danny Arce just beside him, or the bulky man in working khaki a little west of then. Then compare 'Lovelady'.

The aforementioned 'small' women are turned a little east to see the limousine, so we're not seeing their full width. This is not the case with 'Cowboy Man' & Co.

More to the point, look at Mrs. Madie Reese in white just in front of 'Lovelady'. Admittedly, she's a big lady, but in proximity to her 'Lovelady' doesn't look improbably big.

We have to bear in mind that Mr. Bell is filming from quite some distance away, so the difference in stature between folks standing out by the street on north side of Elm and folks in doorway may not be so pronounced as one might expect. And look at the folks by the concrete reflecting pool (south side of Elm)----------they're not greatly larger than folks across the street.

At the distance at which Bell is filming, the difference in size between north-side-of-Elm streetside spectators and doorway occupants is not nearly so big as in, say, Towner, which is filmed much closer.

**

All that said, I still think we may be getting a bit of Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt in Bell.

And I continue to be troubled by the improbable squareness of the white 'Lovelady tshirt':

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnSmY2RW/Bell-tshirt-larger.gif)

**

I also must once again draw attention to the WHITE and BLUE in FRONT of Mr. Lovelady in these frames here--------------can anyone offer an explanation for these colors other than the one I have given?

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCkh0v2D/Bell-Tshirt-blue-white-area-extra-saturation.gif)

Because the story we have been told is that this is Mr. Lovelady emerging from behind 'Carl Edward Jones'. How the heck does 'Carl Edward Jones' yield WHITE and BLUE?

I propose that the blue belongs to the black gentleman's upraised left arm (which we have already seen in Hughes), and the white to Mr. Oswald's tshirt.

Remember: this black gentleman shows up wearing BLUE in the Hughes film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/3JcXfnSs/Lovelady-Hughes-longer-frame-0003-blue.jpg)

Now! If you're serious about finding THIS fellow in white on the left-----------

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGTywj9S/Carl-Jones-in-Willis.jpg)

--------------then the tall man standing straight across from Mr. Blue, on the EAST side of the doorway, is a much better bet:

(https://i.postimg.cc/d0QzWxjd/Towner-man-in-white.gif)

His presence there appears to have gone unnoticed before now. There may be a reason for that................

And let us note, finally, that by the time of Darnell he has vacated his spot on the lower east side of the doorway:

(https://i.postimg.cc/dt4R2N3g/Darnell-new-frame-doorway.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 06, 2023, 01:39:34 AM
Thank you Duncan! Thank you Chris! The Mystery Camera Lady in Blue does appear to be stopping to take a picture and would bunch up with Rosemary Willis and the Lady in White. However, like you say Chris, they would be too low in Bell. Ironically Chris, the two people you point out as possibilities to be on the steps are not on the steps. Roy Edward Lewis is out on the grass near the Presidential limo, and Carolyn Arnold is standing out on Elm Street with her girlfriends! Thank you both for everything that you do! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
Eliminated. Thanks for that. I didn't see her in Bell, initially.

 

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 06, 2023, 03:23:26 AM
I would caution against the assumption that the figure taken to be Mr. Lovelady in Bell is too wide to be one person.
All that said, I still think we may be getting a bit of Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt in Bell.
Alan,
I have never been under the assumption that the red clothing in Bell belonged to one person.
Yes, agree. One of those two red clothed figures in Bell could be Oswald.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 06, 2023, 09:16:52 PM
Alan,
I have never been under the assumption that the red clothing in Bell belonged to one person.
Yes, agree. One of those two red clothed figures in Bell could be Oswald.

Hi Chris, If you look at the TSBD's entrance, it seems that it is wide enough on both sides of the middle railing to accommodate three people standing side by side; although I am sure there could be four thin ladies or something like that, but in general probably three. And I think that is what we generally see on the East side. The West side is pretty much empty! Why? I am guessing the TSBD's employees were told to keep the West side clear for safety reasons. However, we have Lee Oswald in the upper corner out of the way; Billy Lovelady joking around with Ruth Dean, who is just on the East side of the railing, and Maddie Reese just below him, and we have tall Carl Edward Jones dressed in his silver colored outfit over in the West corner, probably pretty much out of the way like Lee Oswald above near the top. When Billy appears on the right, Carl's left in Hughes and Bell, I am going to say Lee is not there only Billy. However at this particular time in the motorcade, I am going to add Jeraldean Reid, the tall Lady in Blue, to Billy's left. I am also going to say that for many years she has been misidentified. In my opinion, Miss Martha Reed has been called Jeraldean Reid for years. I believe Jeraldean Reid is the tall lady in blue in the Martin film.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_lovelady.jpg)
Notice how the Hughes camera has the ability to distinguish blue from black.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/martinhughessynch100prkc9v.gif)

This is how Jeraldean Reid has been identified by Linda Zambanini and others.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg)
This is what Linda Zambanini has on Martha Reed.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/reed-martha-1.jpg)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/reed-martha-3.jpg)

This is what Linda has on Jeraldean Reid.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/reid-with-bill-alexander.jpg?w=524&h=350)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/reid-jeraldeean.jpg)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/3-stca-part-2-1-ruby-sister.jpg)

So I think you should just switch the identifications. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 06, 2023, 09:52:43 PM
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Nhv.gif)

For the longest time, I've been working off an unstabilized version of the above gif. Now that Mr. Davidson has kindly stabilized it, so much helpful detail leaps out.

Look for instance at these two women [red arrows]:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHrXKNvT/Bell-waving-marked.jpg)

Each is simply waving with her hand------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/vTvLqQqK/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)

This supplies a second reason----------along with the location of the hands (too far east of the man [light-blue arrow])*-----------to definitively rule out either of these women as the source of the fluttering object in Towner. The latter is certainly no hand.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTMqDmhM/Belltowner-saturation-towner.gif)

If you doubt this double reason to rule out either of these women as the source of the waving object in Towner, just take look at these synced Bell & Towner frames. Make sure to check out the very different spatial relations between
a) the lady in back's waving hand and the head of the man in khaki (Bell)
b) the waving object and the same khaki man's head (Towner)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

This has large implications. For it leaves us with absolutely no alternative to the conclusion that the object we see being waved energetically in Towner is coming from the doorway.

There is literally nowhere else it could be coming from. (If you don't believe me, look at the full scene in Bell in the Quote section at the top of this post--------ain't no one there between street spectators and doorway.)

Once you have let this fact sink in, consider another. There is only one person in the right position in that doorway to be waving this object: the man in the reddish shirt whom we've just seen in Hughes

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

And, to cap it all off, the presence of a figure at sitting height can be made out when the waving object is at higher elevation. We should just be seeing empty steps  behind there, but no:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SshRJctt/Belltowner-towner-slow.gif)

A man standing, waving the object: Mr. Oswald:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HW4kZJzx/Towner-red-shirt.jpg)

A man sitting, being blocked by the object being waved: Mr. Lovelady
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 07, 2023, 01:07:54 AM
For the longest time, I've been working off an unstabilized version of the above gif. Now that Mr. Davidson has kindly stabilized it, so much helpful detail leaps out.

Look for instance at these two women [red arrows]:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHrXKNvT/Bell-waving-marked.jpg)

Each is simply waving with her hand------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/vTvLqQqK/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)

This supplies a second reason----------along with the location of the hands (too far east of the man [light-blue arrow])*-----------to definitively rule out either of these women as the source of the fluttering object in Towner. The latter is certainly no hand.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTMqDmhM/Belltowner-saturation-towner.gif)

If you doubt this double reason to rule out either of these women as the source of the waving object in Towner, just take look at these synced Bell & Towner frames. Make sure to check out the very different spatial relations between
a) the lady in back's waving hand and the head of the man in khaki (Bell)
b) the waving object and the same khaki man's head (Towner)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

This has large implications. For it leaves us with absolutely no alternative to the conclusion that the object we see being waved energetically in Towner is coming from the doorway.

There is literally nowhere else it could be coming from. (If you don't believe me, look at the full scene in Bell in the Quote section at the top of this post--------ain't no one there between street spectators and doorway.)

Once you have let this fact sink in, consider another. There is only one person in the right position in that doorway to be waving this object: the man in the reddish shirt whom we've just seen in Hughes

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

And, to cap it all off, the presence of a figure at sitting height can be made out when the waving object is at higher elevation. We should just be seeing empty steps  behind there, but no:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SshRJctt/Belltowner-towner-slow.gif)

A man standing, waving the object: Mr. Oswald:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HW4kZJzx/Towner-red-shirt.jpg)

A man sitting, being blocked by the object being waved: Mr. Lovelady

The woman on the left of the two you identify with the red arrows is waving what appears to be a flag.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vTvLqQqK/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 01:24:01 AM
The woman on the left of the two you identify with the red arrows is waving what appears to be a flag.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vTvLqQqK/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)

No, just a hand flapping up and down quickly as it's being waved. (Compare the other woman's flapping hand, which is just a little slower.)

And even if it were the world's tiniest flag, it's too far east of the man in khaki's head to possibly be the object we see in Towner flapping behind him. Remember, these Bell-Towner frames are synced, so there's zero wiggle room for you here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

Note also in the above synced frames that the way the waving object in Towner moves is NOT in sync with the movement of the woman-in-Bell's hand. The waving object in Towner moves down and to its left; the lady's waving hand undergoes no such change. That's because they are two entirely different objects.

Ms. Towner is well to the EAST and NORTH of Mr. Bell. The angle at which she's filming these streetside spectators is thus v. different. Accordingly, the woman you refer to in Bell is in this area in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1Hd3YSJ/Belltowner-waving-woman.jpg)

Look how far west of her the Towner flapping object is.

The woman is not even close to in the right position to be responsible for the waving object we see in Towner.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 01:35:22 AM
There is only one person in the right position in that doorway to be waving this object: the man in the reddish shirt whom we've just seen in Hughes

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

This is not a loose statement, friends.

Mrs. Madie Reese is shown in Bell with her right hand raised to her face, making no appreciable movement at all.

And Mr. Blue (the black man in front of Red Shirt Man) has just raised his left arm in Hughes, revealing that he is holding nothing in it.

The only person who can possibly be energetically waving that object in the doorway is Red Shirt Man.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 07, 2023, 02:12:47 AM
What is the white blob element( that may have a slight % of  red)  , just to left of and behind blue shirt man on the pedestal (BPM)raising both his hands up , in Hughes film? I

Is that Lovelady in Hughes film sitting on the steps by the center  hand rail , and he is partly obscured by Blue  Pedestal Man (BPM)?

As to the white blob that’s kind of squarish , since the tree foliage is  moving because of gusts of wind, then could Loveladys loose red shirt had blown open a bit more to  expose more of his white T-shirt?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 07, 2023, 02:48:37 AM
No, just a hand flapping up and down quickly as it's being waved. (Compare the other woman's flapping hand, which is just a little slower.)

And even if it were the world's tiniest flag, it's too far east of the man in khaki's head to possibly be the object we see in Towner flapping behind him. Remember, these Bell-Towner frames are synced, so there's zero wiggle room for you here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

Note also in the above synced frames that the way the waving object in Towner moves is NOT in sync with the movement of the woman-in-Bell's hand. The waving object in Towner moves down and to its left; the lady's waving hand undergoes no such change. That's because they are two entirely different objects.

Ms. Towner is well to the EAST and NORTH of Mr. Bell. The angle at which she's filming these streetside spectators is thus v. different. Accordingly, the woman you refer to in Bell is in this area in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1Hd3YSJ/Belltowner-waving-woman.jpg)

Look how far west of her the Towner flapping object is.

The woman is not even close to in the right position to be responsible for the waving object we see in Towner.

I disagree, it looks like a small flag [as opposed to the world's largest banner].
But I do agree these woman are nowhere near the steps in the Towner film. I never said otherwise.
I do, however, disagree that the pixel movement you seem to be talking about in Towner is something "flapping". It seems to be an illusion created by running the film backwards and forwards.
The blurry, pixelated movement you seem to be referring to could easily be someone changing position on the steps.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 07, 2023, 08:13:28 AM
The initial frames show a hand waving by whom ever is in white.
The first red arrow that pops up points to an area of red. The successive arrows follow the continuation of that color until it disappears at the end.
The red area in the first frame with the red arrow is the easiest to see.
If you enlarge the area and put the digital densitometer on the figure who is regarded as Lovelady and the separate red spot you get a match. I'll post this next.
I believe this matches what we see in Bell in terms of two separate individuals with the similar red color clothing on.
https://vimeo.com/872062164?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/872062164?share=copy)
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 07, 2023, 08:18:27 AM
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S63jE.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 08:43:35 AM
What is the white blob element( that may have a slight % of  red)  , just to left of and behind blue shirt man on the pedestal (BPM)raising both his hands up , in Hughes film?

That's young Ms. Toni Glover up on the pedestal. The 'blob' you refer to is Mrs. Madie Reese. Or do you mean the 'blob element' that is moving? That's the head of someone between Ms. Glover and Mr. Hughes' camera (as established by the fact that it doesn't disappear behind her legs when moving across)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 08:45:26 AM
I do, however, disagree that the pixel movement you seem to be talking about in Towner is something "flapping". It seems to be an illusion created by running the film backwards and forwards.
The blurry, pixelated movement you seem to be referring to could easily be someone changing position on the steps.

Seriously?

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMfXZ0Yv/Towner-unger-cropped.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 08:55:00 AM
The initial frames show a hand waving by whom ever is in white.
The first red arrow that pops up points to an area of red. The successive arrows follow the continuation of that color until it disappears at the end.
The red area in the first frame with the red arrow is the easiest to see.
If you enlarge the area and put the digital densitometer on the figure who is regarded as Lovelady and the separate red spot you get a match. I'll post this next.
I believe this matches what we see in Bell in terms of two separate individuals with the similar red color clothing on.
https://vimeo.com/872062164?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/872062164?share=copy)

This is most interesting, Mr. Davidson. I think you may have found the seated Mr. Lovelady in Hughes, just as he leans over to catch his first glimpse of Pres. Kennedy. In a couple of seconds' time, we will be glimpsing him in Towner----------still seated, but now behind a suddenly brandished flag.

Importantly, the red spot your arrows point to is significantly LOWER than the red of Mr. Oswald's right arm reflected in the glass behind which appears just before this
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 09:12:35 AM
To return to an old question: are we seeing ONE flag waved in the doorway or TWO?

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMfXZ0Yv/Towner-unger-cropped.gif)

If two, then it would not be beyond the ability of ONE man to hold both flags simultaneously, waving them alternately, semaphore-style

(https://i.postimg.cc/8PCnvxKZ/Semaphore.jpg)

This would be the perfect pre-agreed signal for Pres. Kennedy--------easily distinguishable from any potential normal flag-waving from some enthusiastic spectator in the doorway.

The man waving the two flags might however need a longer rod attached to the flag being waved further east. In which case, an extended curtain rod would do the job v. nicely.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 09:33:09 AM
Anyone on those front steps who will have noticed Mr. Oswald will not just have noticed his presence on those steps. They will also have witnessed him engaging in the behavior of
1. Greeting Pres. Kennedy with an energetic waving of at least one flag
2. Leaving the steps, taking out a large banner from a long paper bag, and laying out the banner on the ground (or draping it over the roadworks barrier?)

If they have seen (or heard tell of) pro-Castro sentiment inscribed on that banner, then they---------in their ignorance of the false-flag operation for which the faux-leftist Mr. Oswald was actually working--------will know that this man was a member of a Marxist conspiracy that killed Pres. Kennedy. They will also know that their Govt. does NOT want this fact publicly known.

The motivation to keep schtum will be overwhelming. And the motivation to expose themselves to a world of pain by coming to the reputational rescue of a man whom they believe was party to the despicable act of assassinating Pres. Kennedy will be very low indeed.

Thankfully, however, the visual record allows us to reconstruct what happened.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 09:44:03 AM
If the Towner film had only come to light for the first time last week, Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps would be noisily declaring it a digitally manipulated film. It's that disastrous to their cause.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 07, 2023, 11:48:29 PM
Anyone care to venture a guess as to who owns this color? Because it sure as heck ain't foliage. And it sure as heck doesn't belong to the skin/shirt/tshirt [!] of Mr. Lovelady, whose head is about to make its appearance a good step ABOVE it, and whose shirt & tshirt are about to emerge from BEHIND it.............

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yDyVFCN/Bell-color.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/wMy3tYGG/Bell-color-frame-0004.jpg)

With extra saturation:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gtzw1Xrh/Bell-color-saturation.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 09, 2023, 05:36:40 AM
Where Chris Davidsons red arrow points to in that last post of Hughes film clip is the white blob that I was asking about.  So do THREE of us  agree now ,  that white blob with sliver of red  probably Lovelady sitting on the steps partly obscured by the blue shirt girl on the pedestal?

Where would Oswald have left his bottle after he finished it (presumably taking the last drop in Hughes film)?

He would have had to put the bottle down to display his banner would he not?

Or could he hold the banner in one hand whike keeping The coke bottle in the other hand so that he’s captured in Altgens raising the bottle AGAIN?

Or is that Cronkite version Altgens 6 photo anomaly of the  dark slash across Loveladys white shirt a Portion of Curtain rod instead of a bottle?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Frederick Clements on October 09, 2023, 11:00:52 AM
So Alan you no longer believe that PM is Oswald? Including in the Weigman film?

Fred
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 09, 2023, 12:04:34 PM
So Alan you no longer believe that PM is Oswald? Including in the Weigman film?

Fred

Mr. Clements, I believe PM in Wiegman may very well be Mr. Oswald, standing just where we've seen him seconds earlier in the Hughes film (though now with a fake shadow added to his person to obscure his identity).

However, the emergence of the clearer Darnell frame below rules him out categorically IMO as PM in Darnell. By the time Mr. Darnell captures the front steps, Mr. Oswald is already gone from them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rFmkz1/Darnell-new-frame-shadows.jpg)

I believe, in short, that PM in Wiegman and PM in Darnell are two different people.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 09, 2023, 12:16:16 PM
Where Chris Davidsons red arrow points to in that last post of Hughes film clip is the white blob that I was asking about.  So do THREE of us  agree now ,  that white blob with sliver of red  probably Lovelady sitting on the steps partly obscured by the blue shirt girl on the pedestal?

I think it's a strong hypothesis, Mr. Mason, but am honestly unsure if we can rule out 100% that it is another reflection in the glass doorway from Mr. Oswald's shirt.

What is certain is that a red-sleeved arm does make a brief appearance back there in perfect sync with Mr. Oswald westward lean: it's clearly a reflection from his right arm (the one holding the Coke). Might the red area found by Mr. Davidson be high enough to possibly belong to the main body of that shirt? Needs further patient study IMO..........
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 09, 2023, 02:12:48 PM
Mr. Shelley tells this to FBI on 18 March 1964.

I suspect Mr. Lovelady may indeed have been seated in the doorway as Pres. Kennedy was passing. His view, however, was suddenly obscured by the energetic waving of a flag by his co-worker, Mr. Lee Oswald. An irritated Mr. Lovelady rises to his feet to see over the flag.

This would explain the fact that a standing Mr. Lovelady is not evident in Towner

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3k167LQ/Towner-Unger-full.gif)

Apropos!

Consider for a moment the odd choice of nearly every occupant of the doorway to stand on its east side. It would have been perfectly easy to get a good view of the motorcade (and a better one, if one wished to see as much as possible of Pres. & Mrs. Kennedy on Houston and turning onto Elm) by standing on the west side.

And yet just about everyone avoids standing on the west side.

I believe there is a simple explanation for this: courtesy.

In the run-up to the motorcade's arrival in Dealey Plaza, Mr. Lovelady and perhaps one or two others were sitting on the upper steps on the west side of the doorway. To take up a standing position in front of someone who is sitting is---rude.

Mr. Lovelady was in effect hogging most of the west side for himself---------right up to the time of the motorcade's arrival.

Even Mrs. Madie Reese presses against the center railing out of consideration for the seated man behind her (look at her in Bell). And the black man in blue down by the western column stays in close to the column. Leaving Mr. Lovelady a decent vantage point looking out of the doorway.

A packed east side; a thinly peopled west side: easily explained by a laid-back Mr. Lovelady's decision to sit down and stay down.

And he only rose to his feet when his view of Pres. Kennedy was rudely blocked by a flag being waved energetically right in front of him. Had Mr. Oswald not spoiled his view like this, Mr. Lovelady would have watched the limousine pass by without bothering to take to his feet. Only the sound of gunfire several seconds later would have startled him out of his sedentary position.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 09, 2023, 05:21:44 PM
Mrs. Madie Reese is shown in Bell with her right hand raised to her face, making no appreciable movement at all.

And Mr. Blue (the black man in front of Red Shirt Man) has just raised his left arm in Hughes, revealing that he is holding nothing in it.

The only person who can possibly be energetically waving that object in the doorway is Red Shirt Man.

Which means that those who cling to the old identification of Red Shirt Man in Hughes as Mr. Billy Lovelady are committed to the following claim:

'Mr. Lovelady out of nowhere started energetically waving at least one flag (or somesuch) at Pres. Kennedy, and his doing so went unnoticed by everyone there---------including himself.'

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 09, 2023, 05:45:03 PM
Where Chris Davidsons red arrow points to in that last post of Hughes film clip is the white blob that I was asking about.  So do THREE of us  agree now ,  that white blob with sliver of red  probably Lovelady sitting on the steps partly obscured by the blue shirt girl on the pedestal?
It's seems hard to imagine that by correcting the color cast in Towner that we end up with the white blob in Hughes.
Here's Towner slowed down to 6fps and stabilized. Does it appear as though that person (white blob Hughes/orange figure Towner) is waving with both arms not including the flag object bouncing around?
I'm not seeing that figure as sitting down.
https://vimeo.com/872621384?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/872621384?share=copy)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 09, 2023, 09:45:27 PM
It's seems hard to imagine that by correcting the color cast in Towner that we end up with the white blob in Hughes.
Here's Towner slowed down to 6fps and stabilized. Does it appear as though that person (white blob Hughes/orange figure Towner) is waving with both arms not including the flag object bouncing around?
I'm not seeing that figure as sitting down.
https://vimeo.com/872621384?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/872621384?share=copy)

Another revelatory stabilization, Mr. Davidson----------thank you so much!  Thumb1:

If it's not too much trouble, would it be possible to post this here as a gif? I'd be most grateful
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 10, 2023, 01:51:19 AM
Surely,
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6qTx.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 10, 2023, 10:31:06 AM
Surely,
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6qTx.gif)

Gentleman----------thank you!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 10, 2023, 11:16:20 AM
Friends, I've long been bugged by how pink Mrs. Madie Reese's coat is showing up in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kG3hjbsm/Towner-pink-gif.gif)

But nothing like a Davidson Stabilization to sort out signal from noise.

That pink ain't from Mrs. Reese's coat. It chiefly belongs to the raised (unsleeved) right forearm of this lady whom Towner catches after she's raised it to wave:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5y51p1ws/Bell-woman-about-to-wave.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/vHd5mzDy/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)

I say the pink chiefly belongs to her, because Miss Towner's POV is giving us a blend of this lady's unsleeved right forearm and that of the lady standing and waving a few feet behind her. Mr. Davidson's stabilized version of Towner allows us to see the flapping up and down of the hands (to viewer's right of the object being waved in the doorway):

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6qTx.gif)

Mrs. Reese, in short, is being all but blocked from Towner's view by these ladies' raised arms.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 10, 2023, 11:20:24 AM
Miss Towner's POV is giving us a blend of this lady's unsleeved right forearm and that of the lady standing and waving a few feet behind her. Mr. Davidson's stabilized version of Towner allows us to see the flapping up and down of the hands

That's the first important fact which Mr. Davidson's stabilized clip allows us to establish.

The second is that there appears, after all, to be just ONE flag (or somesuch) being waved in the doorway:

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6qTx.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 10, 2023, 11:28:25 AM
The third important thing the stabilized gif shows us is just how energetically------nay, urgently------nay, frantically------the flag (or somesuch) is being waved. Here's the gif at something close to normal speed:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bv7CmnYR/Towner-stablized-faster.gif)

Red Shirt Man in Hughes has gone from this-----------
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
to this------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/bv7CmnYR/Towner-stablized-faster.gif)
in lickety-split

Hands up who thinks Mr. Billy Lovelady did this!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 10, 2023, 11:47:00 AM
The fourth important thing that the stabilized gif establishes is that there is indeed an immobile block of reddish color behind the doorway flag, which comes into view momentarily when the flag is raised from right in front of it:

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6qTx.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjrmXJjr/Towner-stabilized-saturation.gif)

This, I maintain, is Mr. Billy Lovelady, still sitting on one of the upper front steps.

Look closely at the very final frames of this gif, and you'll see more white appear in this area behind the flag. I believe that this may be from Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt, and that Towner is here capturing Mr. Lovelady's movement as he begins to take to his feet in order to see over the damned flag that has just spoiled his view:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QCKjRPRT/Towner-stabilized-saturation-Lovelady.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 10, 2023, 11:53:15 PM
The third important thing the stabilized gif shows us is just how energetically------nay, urgently------nay, frantically------the flag (or somesuch) is being waved

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)

Note the movement of Mr. Oswald's red shirt in sync with the movement of the object he's frenetically waving:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 11, 2023, 01:35:08 AM
Where is Oswald’s head? (In Towner film)
He’s got to be in the sunlight still after he’s moving a little from the west wall and unfurling flying flag display.

Maybe there’s a little bit of magical black out of his head?

Probably was too difficult to blacken out the entire Oswald along with banner,  because that would create a VERY weird black area effect.

Getting rid of the head would be the easiest thing imo.

They could not just “lose” all these films and no doubt the films must have been scrutinized to see if Oswald was in fact outside watching the P.Parade as FBI agent Hosty ( and probably the other interrogators also) had heard Oswald claim.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 12, 2023, 12:05:56 AM
Where is Oswald’s head? (In Towner film)

Good question, Mr. Mason
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 12, 2023, 12:09:03 AM
The black man in front of Mr. Oswald has raised his left hand to wave, and now lowers it to shield his eyes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VvJxjSY0/Towner-LHO-movement.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 13, 2023, 06:43:35 PM
Well ,if the black guy whom  is supposedly Carl Jones is raising his hand up to shield  his eyes, then the Cronkite version Altgens 6 photo anomaly is “Partly” solved , as the hand and forearm DO belong to Jones( or whomever black man)

What’s left is that  black slash across Loveladys  white T-shirt which therefore may  NOT be Oswald’s hand raising a bottle but is Oswald’s curtain rod ( or stick) which is part of the flag waving scheme.

Now I’m wondering if the paper bag,  the same bag which the lady is holding up in Darnell film, was found ALONG with the curtain rod /flag that Oswald probably DROPPED on the walkway in front of the steps when Oswald left those steps, (within about 10-15 secs post shots)  such that Oswald was not captured in the Darnell film when Baker was running towards the steps (then to the woman holding the bag.)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 14, 2023, 12:35:38 AM
Friends, we have established beyond ANY doubt that the flag is being waved by Red Shirt Man whom we have seen just a couple of seconds before this in Hughes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

So Red Shirt Man is still standing behind the black man standing by the white western column. This is not an opinion, it's just a straight statement of fact.

How curious, then, that Towner shows THIS in a spot where Hughes apparently shows no one at all:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sXN9FJQf/Towner-lovelady-sitting.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4QQtnw/Towner-Lovelady-sitting-saturation.gif)

There isn't supposed to be anyone standing HERE on the steps.

! Nor can this red possibly belong to the lower body of anyone standing up on the landing, because it goes down TOO LOW.
! Nor can it possibly belong to the white-attired Mrs. Madie Reese.
! Nor can it possily belong to anyone out in the line of streetside spectators.
! Nor can it possibly belong to the flag being waved by Red Shirt Man, for that flag is visibly cleared out of its way when the flag is raised to higher elevation.

And yet...............there IS someone there, in red clothing.

Solution?

It couldn't be simpler: this person in red is positioned FAR BACK enough NOT to show up prominently in Hughes.

And the ONLY way that is possible, and the only way this person's red-attired upper body can be seen at this height, is if that person is SEATED several steps up/back.

And! There is only one person this can possibly be: Mr. Billy Lovelady.

The Towner film is showing us TWO figures in red:
a) Mr. Lovelady watching the motorcade from a seated position
b) Mr. Oswald waving a flag energetically at the motorcade from a standing position.

**

Anyone who disagrees is cordially invited to complete the following sentence:

'The red area marked by the yellow arrows does not belong to Billy Lovelady. It is in fact_______________________________________'

(https://i.postimg.cc/sXN9FJQf/Towner-lovelady-sitting.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4QQtnw/Towner-Lovelady-sitting-saturation.gif)

Best of luck!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 14, 2023, 12:51:21 PM
The Towner film is showing us TWO figures in red:
a) Mr. Lovelady watching the motorcade from a seated position
b) Mr. Oswald waving a flag energetically at the motorcade from a standing position.

Furthermore!

Comparative scrutiny of the game-changing Bell & Towner Davidson Stabilizations allows us to notice something else.

Bell shows Mrs. Madie Reese raising her right arm a little higher:

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Nhv.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/4yDyVFCN/Bell-color.gif)

I believe this may account for the sudden appearance of WHITE in FRONT of Mr. Lovelady's shirt at the very end of the Towner doorway footage:

(https://i.postimg.cc/52vXF12b/Towner-contrast-reese.gif)

Either that, or it's Mr. Lovelady's white tshirt coming into view as a result of some movement on his part.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 14, 2023, 03:57:35 PM
Any possibilities for this person?
Universally lightened:
https://vimeo.com/874304340?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/874304340?share=copy)

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Rys.png)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2023, 04:41:33 PM
Any possibilities for this person?
Universally lightened:
https://vimeo.com/874304340?share=copy (https://vimeo.com/874304340?share=copy)

(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6Rys.png)

I believe that chap is the elusive Jack Dougherty.
He's very tall and, by his own admission, was in this area around the general time this image was taken:

"Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
Mr. BALL. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir..."


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 15, 2023, 09:14:23 PM
Why are /DPD/FBI   even allowing any TSBD employee to be hanging around on the 6th floor at the time all there doing their investigation/ arranging evidence?

The guys face looks like Lovelady but what the reason Lovelady  is by himself on the 6th floor is uncertain.

Maybe Lovelady had been given an  order by Fritz to hang around on the 6th floor as an elevator operator?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2023, 09:37:00 PM
Why are /DPD/FBI   even allowing any TSBD employee to be hanging around on the 6th floor at the time all there doing their investigation/ arranging evidence?

The guys face looks like Lovelady but what the reason Lovelady  is by himself on the 6th floor is uncertain.

Maybe Lovelady had been given an  order by Fritz to hang around on the 6th floor as an elevator operator?

He seems to be a lot taller than Lovelady.
Dougherty was 6'2" when he was 19.
He's also not wearing Lovelady's trademark checked shirt.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 15, 2023, 10:53:40 PM
Dougherty overacting being an innocent observer?

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 15, 2023, 11:34:40 PM
Dougherty overacting being an innocent observer?

If it is Dougherty, and that's just a guess, he was up there looking for Truly apparently.
At some point Dougherty is asked by Shelley to guard the elevator (near the front of the building I guess). I'm assuming it's while he's doing this an FBI man asks him to find Truly. Dougherty goes through all the floors but can't find Truly. Eventually he ends up on the sixth floor after the rifle has been found.
The pic Chris posted is taken after the rifle has been found and before Fritz leaves, between 1:30 and 2:00pm.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 16, 2023, 04:50:54 AM
The man who is the spitting image of Mr. Billy Lovelady is either
a) Mr. Lovelady, standing on something
b) A Lovelady lookalike, who happens also to be current holder of the Dallas's Tallest Man prize.

Tough one............
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 16, 2023, 09:37:02 AM
The man who is the spitting image of Mr. Billy Lovelady is either
a) Mr. Lovelady, standing on something
b) A Lovelady lookalike, who happens also to be current holder of the Dallas's Tallest Man prize.

Tough one............

 :D :D
Not you're not still doing the Lovelady-On-A-Box routine, are you?
That's almost as good as the In-The-Building-Is-Outside-The-Building routine.
Or your latest one - the old Prayer Man/Prayer Woman Switcheroo.

As I have this man down as the potential shooter, it's interesting to note his passing resemblance to Oswald.
As for the tallest man in Dallas - I reckon Dougherty was around 6'4" at the time of the assassination. There's no reason to believe the man in Chris's pic is any more than that.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 16, 2023, 11:36:46 AM
As I have this man down as the potential shooter, it's interesting to note his passing resemblance to Oswald.
As for the tallest man in Dallas - I reckon Dougherty was around 6'4" at the time of the assassination. There's no reason to believe the man in Chris's pic is any more than that.

Yeah, you always put on the tinfoil hat when Mr. Dougherty comes into your thoughts. The poor man will be 7' by your next post, lol
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Capasse on October 16, 2023, 12:42:19 PM
He could easily be standing on a pallet. There are boxes very close to him.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 18, 2023, 01:08:16 AM
At some point in time Mr.Truly ( allegedly) had told Lovelady  to guard the rear elevators on the ground floor.

I don’t see how that could have been until AFTER Truly and Baker came back down from the roof top using the east elevator again and they stopped on the 4th floor for some period of time.

So Lovelady must not have been told by Truly to guard the elevators until after at least 10 minutes or more post shots.

So if Lovelady stayed guarding the elevators like he’s been told until Fritz showed up then maybe Lovelady  operated the east elevator to take Fritz and others up to the 6th floor and then Lovelady lingered for a while on the 6th floor.

Lovelady must have taken off his red checkered flannel shirt because he was hot, and he must have stood on a box or pallet which increased his height.

Highly doubtful imo that the 6th floor shooter would be still lingering around on the 6th floor when Fritz got there, and or was  a guy who resembled Oswald who is NOT Lovelady, therefore NOT an TSBD employee, because even the bumbling Fritz would be suspicious of such character and probably have taken him to be interrogated.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 18, 2023, 10:26:20 AM
At 10:10 in the video below we see Fritz as he walks into the area containing the rifle. The other side of the boxes is swarming with law enforcement officers. As Fritz moves across we see the area that the mystery man is stood in. This area is also swarming with officers (highlighted in red):

(https://i.postimg.cc/XqL3H60G/Alyea-Fritz.png) (https://postimages.org/)

There are other moments in the video when we see this area crowded by officers milling about. The area in question is between the stairs and the elevators and would have been kept clear for freedom of movement.


Is it Lovelady stood on a box after taking his shirt off?
Why would he be stood on a box? In his HSCA interview, Lovelady repeats that he stayed by the elevator while he was on the sixth floor (it is interesting that Lovelady, Shelley and Dougherty all testify that they were present on the sixth floor around the time the rifle discovery).
Why did he take his shirt off, the room is full of men wearing full suits. many wearing hats. They don't seem to be affected by the heat?

It seems to me it's equally possible that we are looking at a tall man. Not an extraordinarily tall man. Just someone well over six feet tall.
It seems to me it's equally possible it's someone who didn't remove any clothes, who was just wearing what they were wearing.
This doesn't require a lot of unnecessary assumptions that seem unsupported by what evidence little is available.

What is clear is that the mystery man is not a police officer. He can only be an employee of the TSBD. And not an office worker.
This leaves two realistic choices - it is either Lovelady on a box wearing different clothes or it's the very tall Jack Dougherty wearing his own clothes.

I don't know if James Hackerott is around anymore but it would be great if he could use his "stacking" method on the short piece of video footage in which the mystery man appears.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 18, 2023, 12:59:16 PM
What is clear is that the mystery man is not a police officer. He can only be an employee of the TSBD. And not an office worker.
This leaves two realistic choices - it is either Lovelady on a box wearing different clothes or it's the very tall Jack Dougherty wearing his own clothes.

So, after all your huffing and puffing, you are now forced to accept that Mr. Lovelady standing on a box is indeed a realistic explanation?

Splendid. Your wild notion that 'mystery man' (~grin~) might be your accused assassin Mr. Dougherty can now be consigned to the trash can--------along with what little was left of your credibility as a student of the visual record.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 18, 2023, 04:52:20 PM
So, after all your huffing and puffing, you are now forced to accept that Mr. Lovelady standing on a box is indeed a realistic explanation?

Splendid. Your wild notion that 'mystery man' (~grin~) might be your accused assassin Mr. Dougherty can now be consigned to the trash can--------along with what little was left of your credibility as a student of the visual record.

 Thumb1:

The Fantastical Mr Ford rides in on his unicorn again.
Your "Multi-racial Assassination Death Squad Roaming Around the TSBD Building" theory [MADS for short] is the product of a truly fevered imagination.
Only to be outdone by your "Oswald Rolling Out a Banner" theory.
But none are as ridiculous as your "Prayer Man" theory.
What a joke that was. Glad to see you woke up from that nightmare but, oh, those wasted years.

And what about my crazy "Mystery Man" theory.
An really tall, unidentified TSBD employee appears in Alyea's film. Only Jack Dougherty fits that bill.
The film is taken in the immediate aftermath of the rifle's discovery, before Day has picked it up to inspect it.
In his WC testimony Dougherty states - "...by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun..."
A really tall, unidentified TSBD employee is filmed on the 6th floor after the rifle's discovery.
What a crazy theory!


Or is it really sensible?
Obviously, my suspicion that Dougherty was the shooter is at odds with your MADS theory, so it's little wonder you're hostile to it.
Just like you were hostile with anyone who challenged your "Prayer Man" theory [or any other of your half-baked theories for that matter].
As such, any 'cririque' coming from your direction will be treated with the pinch of salt it deserves.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 18, 2023, 05:32:04 PM
Hi Alan and Dan, Back in 2013 when I saw this picture, I said stuff like it has to be Jack Edwin Dougherty because he could whip Billy Nolan Lovelady with one hand tied behind his back. Steve Logan chimed in and said that it was Billy and he was sure of it. Gary Mack wrote me and said that he has a crystal clear copy of the Alyea film, and it was definitely Lovelady. I disagreed with both of them, and I posted a picture from a FBI Mugshots page of a man with a policeman with a pencil behind I think his left ear, dressed in a white shirt that looked like Dougherty to me. I have searched for probably six months, and I cannot find this page with that picture anymore. Later on I think it was a man named Clyde Billington who out of the blue posted this Allen picture and said that it was Jack Dougherty on the West side behind the glass and Ochus Campbell in the doorway. I said that it probably was Jack but the man in the doorway is Otis Williams. Mr. Billington never responded or posted another post again. A couple of years later, I decided that it was Billy Lovelady. But today, I could go either way. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
 (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_b3627c4a.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 18, 2023, 07:08:35 PM
Hi Alan and Dan, Back in 2013 when I saw this picture, I said stuff like it has to be Jack Edwin Dougherty because he could whip Billy Nolan Lovelady with one hand tied behind his back. Steve Logan chimed in and said that it was Billy and he was sure of it. Gary Mack wrote me and said that he has a crystal clear copy of the Alyea film, and it was definitely Lovelady. I disagreed with both of them, and I posted a picture from a FBI Mugshots page of a man with a policeman with a pencil behind I think his left ear, dressed in a white shirt that looked like Dougherty to me. I have searched for probably six months, and I cannot find this page with that picture anymore. Later on I think it was a man named Clyde Billington who out of the blue posted this Allen picture and said that it was Jack Dougherty on the West side behind the glass and Ochus Campbell in the doorway. I said that it probably was Jack but the man in the doorway is Otis Williams. Mr. Billington never responded or posted another post again. A couple of years later, I decided that it was Billy Lovelady. But today, I could go either way. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
 (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_b3627c4a.jpg)

I believe the man behind the window is this guy:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JdcBHsx/Allen-suspect.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He is widely believed to be Robert Edwards, one of the eye-witnesses who testified that the man in the SN was wearing an open-necked white shirt - an item of clothing Oswald wasn't wearing that day and did not have in his possessions.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 18, 2023, 07:55:05 PM
The Fantastical Mr Ford rides in on his unicorn again.
Your "Multi-racial Assassination Death Squad Roaming Around the TSBD Building" theory [MADS for short] is the product of a truly fevered imagination.
Only to be outdone by your "Oswald Rolling Out a Banner" theory.
But none are as ridiculous as your "Prayer Man" theory.
What a joke that was. Glad to see you woke up from that nightmare but, oh, those wasted years.

Mr. DAN O'MEARA: You're not still doing the Lovelady-On-A-Box routine, are you?
Mr. DAN O'MEARA [a couple of days later]: This leaves two realistic choices - it is either Lovelady on a box [....]

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 18, 2023, 08:15:43 PM
I believe the man behind the window is this guy:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JdcBHsx/Allen-suspect.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He is widely believed to be Robert Edwards, one of the eye-witnesses who testified that the man in the SN was wearing an open-necked white shirt - an item of clothing Oswald wasn't wearing that day and did not have in his possessions.

Hi Dan, No, I do not think it is Robert Edwards behind the glass. However, you are definitely correct about Robert Edwards. Ronald Fischer is right behind him. What you and I need to do together is make a timeline of the Dealey Plaza events. Like the Allen picture you just posted would probably be around 1:00 pm. The one I posted would possibly be around 12:40pm. But in my opinion something needs to be done! Thank you as always for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 20, 2023, 07:05:08 AM
Here's a side-by-side of the mystery man in Alyea and Lovelady, taken from the Martin film. It's the best match for their profiles I could make, both men at almost full profile.
As far as I'm concerned they are clearly two different people. The hairline of each man, particularly around the ear, are completely different, as is the shape of their heads.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnDXZzDp/Lovelady-or-Dougherty2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The mystery man is dressed in casual clothing, certainly not that of a law enforcement officer. This means he can must surely be an unidentified TSBD employee.
He does not appear to be dressed as an office worker. He appears to be wearing a lighter coloured/white t-shirt under an off white, open-necked shirt. He is not wearing a tie.
This suggests he is one of "Truly's boys".
Under these circumstances he can only be Jack Dougherty.
Dougherty was around 6'2" tall when he was 18 years old, the mystery man is a noticeably tall person.
Dougherty testifies that by the time he reached the sixth floor the rifle had been found and the Alyea clip is taken on the sixth floor not long after the discovery of the rifle.





Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 20, 2023, 11:08:44 AM
Here's a side-by-side of the mystery man in Alyea and Lovelady, taken from the Martin film. It's the best match for their profiles I could make, both men at almost full profile.
As far as I'm concerned they are clearly two different people. The hairline of each man, particularly around the ear, are completely different, as is the shape of their heads.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnDXZzDp/Lovelady-or-Dougherty2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The mystery man is dressed in casual clothing, certainly not that of a law enforcement officer. This means he can must surely be an unidentified TSBD employee.
He does not appear to be dressed as an office worker. He appears to be wearing a lighter coloured/white t-shirt under an off white, open-necked shirt. He is not wearing a tie.
This suggests he is one of "Truly's boys".
Under these circumstances he can only be Jack Dougherty.
Dougherty was around 6'2" tall when he was 18 years old, the mystery man is a noticeably tall person.
Dougherty testifies that by the time he reached the sixth floor the rifle had been found and the Alyea clip is taken on the sixth floor not long after the discovery of the rifle.

Hi Dan, I finally found the picture that I had been talking about. I cannot tell you anything about it. I just thought the man looked a lot like Jack and matched the man on the sixth floor. He has a pencil behind his right ear, just like Troy Eugene West! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://2img.net/h/i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab192/col_crow/image_zpsfcff75ce.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 21, 2023, 02:11:50 AM
All those photos are of men wearing white shirt WITH A COLLAR!

Our 6th floor Billy Lovelady similar looking face man has on a white shirt WITHOUT a collar.

And as to the reason the other men on the 6th floor are keeping ON their the jackets is because they are DOD, FBI, and HAVE to because it’s required uniform.

(One exception  was Lt.Day who is his short sleeve shirt handling the MC rifle )

Lovejady on the other hand was just an TSBD employee most notably a labor worker as opposed to office personnel and it was standard practice to allow these workers, like Oswald , to work in just their T-shirt because the building could get hot on some floors like the 5th and 6th not having central AC .
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2023, 09:12:58 AM
All those photos are of men wearing white shirt WITH A COLLAR!

Our 6th floor Billy Lovelady similar looking face man has on a white shirt WITHOUT a collar.

And as to the reason the other men on the 6th floor are keeping ON their the jackets is because they are DOD, FBI, and HAVE to because it’s required uniform.

(One exception  was Lt.Day who is his short sleeve shirt handling the MC rifle )

Lovejady on the other hand was just an TSBD employee most notably a labor worker as opposed to office personnel and it was standard practice to allow these workers, like Oswald , to work in just their T-shirt because the building could get hot on some floors like the 5th and 6th not having central AC .

Yeah Zeon, we've gone past having to make up silly excuses for why Lovelady might have taken his shirt off.
We're on to photographic evidence that demonstrates the two men are completely different.

All those photos are of men wearing white shirt WITH A COLLAR!

All what photos?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 21, 2023, 01:40:53 PM
Yeah Zeon, we've gone past having to make up silly excuses for why Lovelady might have taken his shirt off.
We're on to photographic evidence that demonstrates the two men are completely different.

"Photographic evidence", lol.

Mr. Lovelady took off his shirt. Mr. Lovelady stood on a box. The rest is just your hallucination
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2023, 03:01:02 PM
I have to hold my hands up and say it looks like I got it wrong about Lovelady on a box.
The picture I used to compare Lovelady with the mystery man shows Lovelady with a really sloping forehead and a completely different hairline.
I just assumed the guy pictured outside the TSBD building was Lovelady because of the shirt.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnDXZzDp/Lovelady-or-Dougherty2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

However, I came across a mugshot of Lovelady which shows a completely different profile and, when rotated slightly, is a really good match for the mystery man.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5zqfff1/Lovelady-or-Dougherty3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It was an honest mistake, made because I assumed the guy in the Martin and Hughes films was Lovelady. Now I'm not so sure.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 21, 2023, 04:46:08 PM
It was an honest mistake, made because I assumed the guy in the Martin and Hughes films was Lovelady. Now I'm not so sure.

An honest mistake, but one defended dishonestly with the trademark O'Meara arrogance we've come to know and love.

And you're still lost in cluelessness:

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5zqfff1/Lovelady-or-Dougherty3.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/tCX37fwb/Lovelady-DPD2-tilt.jpg)

Wanna go extra-shiny tinfoil hat on us with that DPD footage?

And what, pray, happens now to "He appears to be wearing a lighter coloured/white t-shirt under an off white, open-necked shirt"? That's right----------you got that completely wrong too.

Steer clear of the visual record in future, Mr. O'Meara, it only brings out the angry clown in you

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 21, 2023, 05:42:30 PM
So!

Back to reality................

I have four simple questions for anyone on Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps (well, anyone other than Mr. O'Meara, who is excused on compassionate grounds) that doubts my claim that Towner shows Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald in the doorway waving a flag at Pres. Kennedy whilst Mr. Billy Lovelady is seated on the steps just to his east:

1. What do YOU believe is being waved here?

2. Where do YOU believe it is being waved from?

3. Who do YOU believe is waving it?

4. To whom do YOU believe the red area behind the flag, marked below by yellow arrows, belongs?

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4QQtnw/Towner-Lovelady-sitting-saturation.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 21, 2023, 07:15:54 PM
It was an honest mistake, made because I assumed the guy in the Martin and Hughes films was Lovelady. Now I'm not so sure.

I believe that the screen grab from the Martin film doesn't have the correct aspect ratio.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 21, 2023, 07:19:52 PM
And! As some bonus excruciation for Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps, here is a further question:

What do YOU believe is being held up by the lady towards whom Officer Baker is running?

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQr3H7W2/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGz73Y3F/Darnell-bag.jpg)

[Credit for GIF: Mr. Sandy Larsen]
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 21, 2023, 07:26:54 PM
What object is covering the jaw/chin line?
What arm orientation works with what is seen in Bell?
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6y2A.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 21, 2023, 08:03:04 PM
What object is covering the jaw/chin line?

Hmmmm............. Well spotted, sir!

Cf. that very area in the version of the photograph shown live on TV by Mr. Walter Cronkite evening 11/22:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KjgwYhrr/Cronkite-Altgens-cropped-350.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/XJ6QgBwF/Cronkite-Altgens-cropped-350-contrast-darker.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Chris Davidson on October 21, 2023, 10:55:59 PM
I would expect to see at least somewhat of a completed jaw/chin line when objects are behind one another from the photographers perspective:
Something like this:
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/S6yk6.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 21, 2023, 11:58:11 PM
So!

Back to reality................

 :D

Quote
I have four simple questions for anyone on Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps (well, anyone other than Mr. O'Meara, who is excused on compassionate grounds) that doubts my claim that Towner shows Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald in the doorway waving a flag at Pres. Kennedy whilst Mr. Billy Lovelady is seated on the steps just to his east:

1. What do YOU believe is being waved here?

2. Where do YOU believe it is being waved from?

3. Who do YOU believe is waving it?

4. To whom do YOU believe the red area behind the flag, marked below by yellow arrows, belongs?

You've actually solved this conundrum without realising it.
In an earlier post you made the following observation:

Friends, I've long been bugged by how pink Mrs. Madie Reese's coat is showing up in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kG3hjbsm/Towner-pink-gif.gif)

But nothing like a Davidson Stabilization to sort out signal from noise.

That pink ain't from Mrs. Reese's coat. It chiefly belongs to the raised (unsleeved) right forearm of this lady whom Towner catches after she's raised it to wave:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5y51p1ws/Bell-woman-about-to-wave.jpg)

If you look to the left of the woman you identified there is another woman dressed in black. As the limo passes she raises her arm and is waving something. She can be seen quite clearly in this gif:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHd5mzDy/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)

Going back to Towner.
If you are correct in your interpretation then we should be able to see the woman dressed in black, with her arm raised, waving something.
In the pic below the woman you identified is in the orange box.
To the left of her is the woman dressed in black with her arm raised:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LJkKFrW/Towner-Alan.png) (https://postimages.org/)

It can hardly be a coincidence that where we would expect to see whatever the woman in black is waving is the same area we see "Oswald's Flag".


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 22, 2023, 12:17:02 AM
If you look to the left of the woman you identified there is another woman dressed in black. As the limo passes she raises her arm and is waving something. She can be seen quite clearly in this gif:

Wow----------great work, Mr. O'Meara! What keen eyes you have!

Now try actually reading the next bit of that post of mine (#2714) you've so cackhandedly tried to respond to.

This will end about as well for you as your 'It's not Lovelady it's Dougherty!' humiliation. But will you make mature use of yet another teachable moment? Fat chance ::)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 22, 2023, 03:51:33 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

The above stabilized frames from Towner put it beyond question that the movement of Red Shirt Man's body corresponds to the movement of the object he's waving.

But---------------to return to a question posed by Mr. Mason----------------how come we cannot see Red Shirt Man's head?

It seems unlikely that his head is fully shadowed by the western column. Though further cross-referencing with the momentary shadowing of his head in Hughes is needed to rule this out definitively. Certainly half of his body (the western half) appears to be in natural shadow, so might he possibly have his head tilted west during the Towner frames?

Absent that natural explanation, we have the possibility that his head has simply been blacked out by the 'investigators'.

There may, however, be a third possibility, and it's a startling one:

What if we are in fact seeing the back of Red Shirt Man's head? That is to say, what if Red Shirt Man (a.k.a. Mr. Oswald) has turned his back on the motorcade-------------as part of his staged 'protest'?

It is certainly striking that, even when he leans east (viewer's right) to pump the flag at a lower elevation, all we see is red---------no white tshirt, as one would expect given that he has at least several buttons of his shirt open. The only light color we see in that area belongs to the raised left sleeve of the black gentleman in front.

Has Mr. Oswald turned his back on the P. Parade, such that he is now pumping the flag with his right arm?

As well as enhancing the political protest element, it would certainly offer Pres. Kennedy an unmistakable thing to look out for.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 23, 2023, 01:36:56 AM
Wow----------great work, Mr. O'Meara! What keen eyes you have!

Now try actually reading the next bit of that post of mine (#2714) you've so cackhandedly tried to respond to.

This will end about as well for you as your 'It's not Lovelady it's Dougherty!' humiliation. But will you make mature use of yet another teachable moment? Fat chance ::)

I say the pink chiefly belongs to her, because Miss Towner's POV is giving us a blend of this lady's unsleeved right forearm and that of the lady standing and waving a few feet behind her. Mr. Davidson's stabilized version of Towner allows us to see the flapping up and down of the hands (to viewer's right of the object being waved in the doorway):


Hmmm...
The raised arm of the woman in black is on the left of the object being waved (as we look at it)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LJkKFrW/Towner-Alan.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 23, 2023, 11:19:14 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LJkKFrW/Towner-Alan.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Not even close, lol.

Look at the SYNCED Bell-Towner frames in the GIF below. Use this man in khaki as your reference point:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvWRdVRk/Belltowner-man.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

The up-and-down flicker coming from the hand of the woman you identify is too far east of the man in khaki's head to possibly be the object we see in Towner flapping behind him.

And: the way the waving object in Towner moves is NOT in sync with the flickering movement from the woman-in-Bell's hand. The waving object in Towner moves erratically down and to its left; the lady's waving hand undergoes no such change, being a much more placid up-and-down affair. That's because they are two entirely different objects.

And: thanks to Mr. Davidson's stabilized GIF of Towner, we can see the flapping hands---------to the east (viewer's right) of Mr. Oswald's flag:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MCL62bC/Towner-hands.gif)

The ladies' hands line up closely because of Miss Towner's POV, from a spot well east and north of Mr. Bell.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 23, 2023, 05:03:43 PM
Not even close, lol.

Look at the SYNCED Bell-Towner frames in the GIF below. Use this man in khaki as your reference point:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvWRdVRk/Belltowner-man.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

The up-and-down flicker coming from the hand of the woman you identify is too far east of the man in khaki's head to possibly be the object we see in Towner flapping behind him.

And: the way the waving object in Towner moves is NOT in sync with the flickering movement from the woman-in-Bell's hand. The waving object in Towner moves erratically down and to its left; the lady's waving hand undergoes no such change, being a much more placid up-and-down affair. That's because they are two entirely different objects.

And: thanks to Mr. Davidson's stabilized GIF of Towner, we can see the flapping hands---------to the east (viewer's right) of Mr. Oswald's flag:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MCL62bC/Towner-hands.gif)

The ladies' hands line up closely because of Miss Towner's POV, from a spot well east and north of Mr. Bell.

Not even close, lol.

Hmmm..seems pretty close to me.

(https://i.postimg.cc/76HTJ0Sv/Bell-Towner-Label.png) (https://postimg.cc/GBfpZBMz)

The woman in black is frantically waving something.
The flapping object seems to be right next to the raised arm of the woman in black.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MCL62bC/Towner-hands.gif)

To be honest Alan, I'm not really interested in your ridiculously biased opinion.
It would be good to hear from someone else.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 23, 2023, 09:13:36 PM
Not even close, lol.

Hmmm..seems pretty close to me.

Apologies, Mr. O'Meara. It was inconsiderate of me to point out that these Towner-Bell frames are synced--------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)
-------------without explaining to you what synced means.

I'm now going to explain to you what it means to say that these frames are synced.

It means that their clocks are synchronized. That is to say, they are simultaneous. Which is to say, they are showing the exact same moments in time.

Now that I have explained to you what synced means, you might find your way to grasping how impossible it is for the up-and-down flutter from the lady in black's hand to be responsible for the waving object shown in Towner. Once again, use the head of the man in khaki as your reference point. You will see that that lady's hand is clearly too far east to be the waving object shown in Towner. Miss Towner's POV renders such a solution quite absurd.

POV means 'point of view', by the way
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 23, 2023, 11:18:55 PM
Apologies, Mr. O'Meara. It was inconsiderate of me to point out that these Towner-Bell frames are synced--------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)
-------------without explaining to you what synced means.

I'm now going to explain to you what it means to say that these frames are synced.

It means that their clocks are synchronized. That is to say, they are simultaneous. Which is to say, they are showing the exact same moments in time.

Now that I have explained to you what synced means, you might find your way to grasping how impossible it is for the up-and-down flutter from the lady in black's hand to be responsible for the waving object shown in Towner. Once again, use the head of the man in khaki as your reference point. You will see that that lady's hand is clearly too far east to be the waving object shown in Towner. Miss Towner's POV renders such a solution quite absurd.

POV means 'point of view', by the way

you might find your way to grasping how impossible it is for the up-and-down flutter from the lady in black's hand to be responsible for the waving object shown in Towner.

The woman in black has been pointed out to you a couple of times now and you seem to accept that.
Her raised arm has also been pointed out to you a couple of times now and you seem to accept that.
Now, sit yourself down for this bit.
Her hand is on the end of her arm.
Mind blown.
She has an object in her hand she is frantically waving.
Next to where her hand is (at the end of her arm, remember) we see an object flapping about in Towner.


Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2023, 01:49:11 AM
Her hand is on the end of her arm.
Mind blown.
She has an object in her hand she is frantically waving.
Next to where her hand is (at the end of her arm, remember) we see an object flapping about in Towner.

Good grief.

Last time we sparred in this thread, I actually had to explain to you that standing on a box can make a man appear taller than if he is standing on the floor. It took a while for you to absorb this esoteric insight, and there was much huffing and puffing from you before you finally surrendered to reality, but we got there in the end.

Now I have to explain to you how POV (= point of view) works.

Hmmm.... How to explain it in a way even you might understand?

Let's try this: We see so much more of Mr. Danny Arce behind Cowboy Man in Bell than in Towner. How can this possibly be? Have you any idea, Mr. O'Meara? That's right------it's POV. Miss Towner's POV is very different to Mr. Bell's.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

Now listen up real carefully. This is the science bit....................

Given that the SYNCED Bell frames are clearly showing the fluttering coming from the lady in black's hand to be noticeably to the EAST of the head of the man in khaki's head--------

(https://i.postimg.cc/8c1QdzCd/Bell-spectators-sync.gif)

---------then there is simply no way on earth that the SYNCED Towner frames are going to show that same fluttering MUCH LESS EAST of, and in fact part of the time DIRECTLY BEHIND, the head of the man in khaki:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

It's a physical impossibility.

Now, let me help you further out of the latest compound hallucination into which you've fallen.

Because of Miss Towner's POV------------which, in case you missed it last time I explained it, is DIFFERENT to Mr. Bell's-------------the lady in black standing behind the others is blocked from view by the lady in front. (If this confuses you, think of it as a more ample eclipse than the one Cowboy Man is inflicting on Mr. Danny Arce in the same Towner frames.)

You never considered this, did you? That's because you don't understand POV, isn't it?

And your inability to understand how POV works has led you, in your amateur-hour Towner IDs--------

(https://i.postimg.cc/76HTJ0Sv/Bell-Towner-Label.png)

---------to misunderstand where Lady #2 actually is in Towner, and to completely misunderstand where Lady #1 is.

If you want to stop misunderstanding where these ladies are in Towner, then use as your Bell reference points Lady #2's unsleeved, lowered left arm and her unsleeved, raised right arm:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8c1QdzCd/Bell-spectators-sync.gif)

Can you find them? Splendid! Yay you!

Now take a good close look at the synced Towner frames and see if you can find these same two arms:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MCL62bC/Towner-hands.gif)

Once you have found them, the rest will fall into place.

Which will leave you having to find some fresh topic on which to wade in with your kneejerk contrarian nonsense.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2023, 09:56:34 AM
Good grief.

Last time we sparred in this thread, I actually had to explain to you that standing on a box can make a man appear taller than if he is standing on the floor. It took a while for you to absorb this esoteric insight, and there was much huffing and puffing from you before you finally surrendered to reality, but we got there in the end.

Now I have to explain to you how POV (= point of view) works.

Hmmm.... How to explain it in a way even you might understand?

Let's try this: We see so much more of Mr. Danny Arce behind Cowboy Man in Bell than in Towner. How can this possibly be? Have you any idea, Mr. O'Meara? That's right------it's POV. Miss Towner's POV is very different to Mr. Bell's.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

Now listen up real carefully. This is the science bit....................

Given that the SYNCED Bell frames are clearly showing the fluttering coming from the lady in black's hand to be noticeably to the EAST of the head of the man in khaki's head--------

(https://i.postimg.cc/8c1QdzCd/Bell-spectators-sync.gif)

---------then there is simply no way on earth that the SYNCED Towner frames are going to show that same fluttering MUCH LESS EAST of, and in fact part of the time DIRECTLY BEHIND, the head of the man in khaki:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0549M2Fw/Bell-Towner.gif)

It's a physical impossibility.

Now, let me help you further out of the latest compound hallucination into which you've fallen.

Because of Miss Towner's POV------------which, in case you missed it last time I explained it, is DIFFERENT to Mr. Bell's-------------the lady in black standing behind the others is blocked from view by the lady in front. (If this confuses you, think of it as a more ample eclipse than the one Cowboy Man is inflicting on Mr. Danny Arce in the same Towner frames.)

You never considered this, did you? That's because you don't understand POV, isn't it?

And your inability to understand how POV works has led you, in your amateur-hour Towner IDs--------

(https://i.postimg.cc/76HTJ0Sv/Bell-Towner-Label.png)

---------to misunderstand where Lady #2 actually is in Towner, and to completely misunderstand where Lady #1 is.

If you want to stop misunderstanding where these ladies are in Towner, then use as your Bell reference points Lady #2's unsleeved, lowered left arm and her unsleeved, raised right arm:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8c1QdzCd/Bell-spectators-sync.gif)

Can you find them? Splendid! Yay you!

Now take a good close look at the synced Towner frames and see if you can find these same two arms:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MCL62bC/Towner-hands.gif)

Once you have found them, the rest will fall into place.

Which will leave you having to find some fresh topic on which to wade in with your kneejerk contrarian nonsense.

 Thumb1:

---------to misunderstand where Lady #2 actually is in Towner, and to completely misunderstand where Lady #1 is.

Okay, I get you know.
I've completely misunderstood where Lady#2 is, even though you pointed her out yourself.
In the pic below I've boxed off what I thought were the right raised arm of Lady#2 and her left lowered arm.

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8WRLM8h/Grey-Lady-Towner.png) (https://postimages.org/)

As I've got that wrong can you please use your legendary photo-analytical skills and point out where she is.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2023, 10:45:55 AM
In the pic below I've boxed off what I thought were the right raised arm of Lady#2 and her left lowered arm.

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8WRLM8h/Grey-Lady-Towner.png) (https://postimages.org/)

No, here's what you actually wrote (emphasis added):

In the pic below the woman you identified is in the orange box.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LJkKFrW/Towner-Alan.png) (https://postimages.org/)

You mistook the woman's raised right arm for her face.

Just before this, you had written, with reference to Towner, "we should be able to see the woman dressed in black, with her arm raised, waving something". This was a poor assumption, because it failed to consider that from Miss Towner's POV Lady #1 (lady in black) would be blocked from view by Lady #2.

**

Now let's cut to the chase.

When the flag in Towner is at higher elevation (last frame in the sequence below), it shows BEHIND the man in khaki's head. At this same precise instant, there is nothing------nada, zilcho-------by way of fluttering/waving object visible behind that man's head in Bell. The fluttering from the lady in black's hand is NOT anywhere near far enough west to go behind the man's head, such that it will show up in Towner behind his head. In fact, we can clearly see the white stone of the window grid area back in the TSBD behind both of them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJRgKhC6/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Therefore, the fluttering coming from the lady in black's hand cannot possibly be responsible for the waving object we see in Towner. That waving object is coming from the west part of the doorway, and the person responsible for it is a man in a red shirt who, in pumping the object up and down, is energetically putting his body into the action:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

In your solution--------

(https://i.postimg.cc/02VbYH2q/Dan-Towner.jpg)

--------you mistook the flag for Lady #1's hand, and the man's red shirt for her raised right arm.

The good news is that you can undo this error in an instant by no longer mistaking the flag for Lady #1's hand, and the man's red shirt for her raised right arm.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2023, 11:44:26 AM
No, here's what you actually wrote (emphasis added):

You mistook the woman's raised right arm for her face.

Just before this, you had written, with reference to Towner, "we should be able to see the woman dressed in black, with her arm raised, waving something". This was a poor assumption, because it failed to consider that from Miss Towner's POV Lady #1 (lady in black) would be blocked from view by Lady #2.

**

Now let's cut to the chase.

When the flag in Towner is at higher elevation (last frame in the sequence below), it shows BEHIND the man in khaki's head. At this same precise instant, there is nothing------nada, zilcho-------by way of fluttering/waving object visible behind that man's head in Bell. The fluttering from the lady in black's hand is NOT anywhere near far enough west to go behind the man's head, such that it will show up in Towner behind his head. In fact, we can clearly see the white stone of the window grid area back in the TSBD behind both of them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJRgKhC6/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Therefore, the fluttering coming from the lady in black's hand cannot possibly be responsible for the waving object we see in Towner. That waving object is coming from the west part of the doorway, and the person responsible for it is a man in a red shirt who, in pumping the object up and down, is energetically putting his body into the action:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

In your solution--------

(https://i.postimg.cc/02VbYH2q/Dan-Towner.jpg)

--------you mistook the flag for Lady #1's hand, and the man's red shirt for her raised right arm.

The good news is that you can undo this error in an instant by no longer mistaking the flag for Lady #1's hand, and the man's red shirt for her raised right arm.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm pointing out so I'd like to take it step by step to make sure we're discussing the same thing.
In the pic below have I correctly boxed off the two arms of Lady#2

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8WRLM8h/Grey-Lady-Towner.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Now this is a yes/no answer [I know how you hate those].
I have either correctly boxed off her arms or I haven't - which is it?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2023, 11:52:41 AM
You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm pointing out so I'd like to take it step by step to make sure we're discussing the same thing.
In the pic below have I correctly boxed off the two arms of Lady#2

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8WRLM8h/Grey-Lady-Towner.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Now this is a yes/no answer [I know how you hate those].
I have either correctly boxed off her arms or I haven't - which is it?

Yes!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2023, 11:57:31 AM
Yes!  Thumb1:

And do you agree that in the Bell film just behind Lady#2 and to her right (our left as we look at it), there is Lady#1, dressed in black with her arm raised?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2023, 12:13:06 PM
And do you agree that in the Bell film just behind Lady#2 and to her right (our left as we look at it), there is Lady#1, dressed in black with her arm raised?

Yes, to the viewer of Bell, Lady #1 appears left of Lady #2  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2023, 12:45:12 PM
Yes, to the viewer of Bell, Lady #1 appears left of Lady #2  Thumb1:

And do you agree that in Towner, just behind Lady#2 (who we have already identified) and to her right (or left as we look at it) is a figure dressed in black with their arm raised?
I've clumsily tried to highlight this person in the pic below:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtYKVZX/Towner-Alan1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2023, 12:53:25 PM
And do you agree that in Towner, just behind Lady#2 (who we have already identified) and to her right (or left as we look at it) is a figure dressed in black with their arm raised?
I've clumsily tried to highlight this person in the pic below:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtYKVZX/Towner-Alan1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

No. Lady #1 is comprehensively obscured from Towner's view by Lady #2

What you think is the raised right arm of Lady #1 is in fact the red shirt of the man in the doorway
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2023, 01:51:21 PM
No. Lady #1 is comprehensively obscured from Towner's view by Lady #2

What you think is the raised right arm of Lady #1 is in fact the red shirt of the man in the doorway

The body and raised arm are black, not red.
How can it be a red shirt if it's black?

LATER EDIT: Are you talking about the area I've marked as the hand of the figure in black?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 24, 2023, 08:31:04 PM
The body and raised arm are black, not red.

You're having another one of your hallucinations
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4ZkRrDB/Towner-hands-saturation.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 24, 2023, 11:12:13 PM
You're having another one of your hallucinations
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4ZkRrDB/Towner-hands-saturation.gif)


Just behind the worker who has his arm across his chest is a figure in black with their arm raised,
In the Bell clip we see Lady#1, dressed in black with her arm raised waving something frantically, stood just behind and to the left (as we see it) of Lady#2
In Towner we see exactly the same thing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4ZkRrDB/Towner-hands-saturation.gif)

You have clearly gone into denial, which is no big surprise.

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 25, 2023, 07:31:15 AM

Just behind the worker who has his arm across his chest is a figure in black with their arm raised,
In the Bell clip we see Lady#1, dressed in black with her arm raised waving something frantically, stood just behind and to the left (as we see it) of Lady#2
In Towner we see exactly the same thing.

~Yawn~

We see something completely different in Towner.

Bell: the fluttering from Lady#1's hand is clearly NOT, at ANY point, far west enough to go BEHIND the man in khaki's HEAD
Towner: what you are identifying as the fluttering from Lady#1's hand DOES go right behind the man in khaki's HEAD

Look at the paused frame here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

If Bell, in these SYNCED Bell-Towner frames, showed the fluttering from Lady#1's hand go far west enough as to be BEHIND the man in khaki's HEAD, then your claim would be worth considering seriously.
But Bell doesn't show anything like that, making your claim no more than a desperate attempt to gaslight.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 25, 2023, 10:47:30 AM
~Yawn~

We see something completely different in Towner.

Bell: the fluttering from Lady#1's hand is clearly NOT, at ANY point, far west enough to go BEHIND the man in khaki's HEAD
Towner: what you are identifying as the fluttering from Lady#1's hand DOES go right behind the man in khaki's HEAD

Look at the paused frame here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

If Bell, in these SYNCED Bell-Towner frames, showed the fluttering from Lady#1's hand go far west enough as to be BEHIND the man in khaki's HEAD, then your claim would be worth considering seriously.
But Bell doesn't show anything like that, making your claim no more than a desperate attempt to gaslight.

We've been here before, when you were in your Prayer Man 'zone'.
I've demonstrated, beyond doubt, that in both Towner and Bell there is a figure dressed in black, with a raised arm, behind and to the left (as we look at it) of Lady#2.
You haven't dealt with a single argument I've put forward.
Instead you've tried to insist that the raised, black arm in Towner is actually a red shirt [ ???]
You've insisted that Lady#1 is "comprehensively obscured" behind Lady#2. You've not offered a supporting argument for this and no evidence to support it. You've just blurted it out and, as I know from past experience, you will stick to it as a "fact".
But if Lady#1 is comprehensively obscured behind Lady#2 then Danny Arce should be comprehensively obscured behind White Stetson man. But he isn't. Like Lady#2 he is clearly visible behind the person in front.
And, even if Lady#2 were comprehensively obscured behind Lady#1, her raised arm should still be visible - don't you agree?

But she isn't comprehensively obscured.
She is partially obscured.
And now we have you simply showing Bell and Towner and stamping your little foot down and insisting it can't be so. Simply because you say so.
But I say look again.
See that in Towner the raised arm of Lady#2 is almost touching the shoulder of Khaki Man but in Bell there is a much larger gap between them.
That is the clue that will help you understand what's going on.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 25, 2023, 01:32:53 PM
I've demonstrated, beyond doubt, that in both Towner and Bell there is a figure dressed in black, with a raised arm, behind and to the left (as we look at it) of Lady#2.

No, that's demonstrated only for Bell

Quote
You haven't dealt with a single argument I've put forward.
Instead you've tried to insist that the raised, black arm in Towner is actually a red shirt [ ???]
You've insisted that Lady#1 is "comprehensively obscured" behind Lady#2. You've not offered a supporting argument for this and no evidence to support it. You've just blurted it out and, as I know from past experience, you will stick to it as a "fact".
But if Lady#1 is comprehensively obscured behind Lady#2 then Danny Arce should be comprehensively obscured behind White Stetson man. But he isn't. Like Lady#2 he is clearly visible behind the person in front.
And, even if Lady#2 were comprehensively obscured behind Lady#1, her raised arm should still be visible - don't you agree?

But she isn't comprehensively obscured.
She is partially obscured.
And now we have you simply showing Bell and Towner and stamping your little foot down and insisting it can't be so. Simply because you say so.
But I say look again.
See that in Towner the raised arm of Lady#2 is almost touching the shoulder of Khaki Man but in Bell there is a much larger gap between them.
That is the clue that will help you understand what's going on.

You're still lost.

Try shocking your brain out of its latest hallucination by noting that Mr. Danny Arce is further south than the lady in blue, who is in turn further south than Lady#1 (the lady in black)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Then ask yourself: How will this disposition of figures present itself to Miss Towner's camera?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 25, 2023, 08:51:58 PM
I think I’ (may) have figured out why Oswald’s head is not visible in Towner film.

It’s because he has his back up against the West wall as he holds out the the banner using the curtain rod.  His head and  part of his body are just inside the angle of shadow from the West wall corner going up the steps.

This is also possibly why his head is not visible in the Altgens Cronkite version photo while at the same time there is a bit of almost horizontal THIN black slash cutting across the lower part of Loveladys  white shirt.  (That slash that we surmised might be a bottle is perhaps actually the curtain rod.) Oswald had just possibly lowered the banner slightly  at this point some 3 seconds beyond Towner film frames.

The dark shadow anomaly on the left side of Lovelady in Weigman is  perhaps because it was added to obscure Oswald and or banner (or both).

The  speculative scenario therefore is :

Oswald at about 12:29, brought out a 24” length x6” width paper bag that contained a banner rolled up around a curtain rod and he took up a position on the front steps just behind Carl Jones, and against the West wall.

Oswald remained standing up against the West wall as he took out his banner on curtain rod from the osier bag, letting the later bag fell to the steps were it could have e been blown to the East side over to where a woman saw it and head it up some 20 seconds later in the Darnell film.

Probability question:

How plausible is it that Oswald was able to slip out the TSBD front door, go behind the fat Mr.Williams , Mr.Shelly, and Buell W. Frazier, passing also by PM (or woman) figure and then down the west sidesteps close to the West wall, just across from Lovelady , and none of those persons “remember” seeing Oswald?

Answer:  Its plausible because Oswald was a slender 130 lb man only 5’9” tall who was a nobody employee whom came out  at 12:29 AS there was heightened Anticipation level of those persons on the steps whom  were therefore fixated upon the impending arrival of the JFK limo about to reach Houston street and turn towards the TSBD.)

Now all we have to do is PROVE this using info from Mr.Fords other  in depth threads pertaining
to the paper bag and the documents concerning the curtain rods.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 25, 2023, 09:36:16 PM
No, that's demonstrated only for Bell

You're still lost.

Try shocking your brain out of its latest hallucination by noting that Mr. Danny Arce is further south than the lady in blue, who is in turn further south than Lady#1 (the lady in black)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Then ask yourself: How will this disposition of figures present itself to Miss Towner's camera?

Mr. Danny Arce is further south than the lady in blue,

Agreed

lady in blue, who is in turn further south than Lady#1 (the lady in black)

I believe this is where you're going wrong.
The lady in black is stood alongside the lady in blue with a gap between them [IMO]

Where is the arm of the lady in black in Towner as far as you're concerned.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 26, 2023, 12:16:42 AM
I believe this is where you're going wrong.
The lady in black is stood alongside the lady in blue with a gap between them [IMO]

Even if that were the case, then expecting the fluttering from Lady #1's hand to show up to Miss Towner's camera right behind the head of khaki man would be as idiotic as expecting the lady in blue's head to be hidden behind the head of Lady #2

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Beyond absurd
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 26, 2023, 01:22:35 AM
Even if that were the case, then expecting the fluttering from Lady #1's hand to show up to Miss Towner's camera right behind the head of khaki man would be as idiotic as expecting the lady in blue's head to be hidden behind the head of Lady #2

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

Beyond absurd

I'll try again, for what it's worth...

Where is the arm of the lady in black in Towner as far as you're concerned?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 26, 2023, 09:41:31 AM
I'll try again, for what it's worth...

Where is the arm of the lady in black in Towner as far as you're concerned?

We see a little sliver of her unsleeved raised right arm behind Lady #2's unsleeved raised right arm.

Now. Have you found a rational explanation yet for the fact that the fluttering coming from Lady #1's hand at no point shows in Bell right behind khaki man's head, as 'it' does (according to your bizarre geometry-breaking claim) in Towner? Your continued avoidance of this problem has been screaming volumes  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 26, 2023, 10:08:43 AM
I think I’ (may) have figured out why Oswald’s head is not visible in Towner film.

It’s because he has his back up against the West wall as he holds out the the banner using the curtain rod.  His head and  part of his body are just inside the angle of shadow from the West wall corner going up the steps.

Thanks for this, Mr. Mason, it's an interesting suggestion. Hughes shows Mr. Oswald's head go in and out of that shadow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 26, 2023, 12:42:22 PM
We see a little sliver of her unsleeved raised right arm behind Lady #2's unsleeved raised right arm.

 :D :D
You're so full of it.

Quote
Now. Have you found a rational explanation yet for the fact that the fluttering coming from Lady #1's hand at no point shows in Bell right behind khaki man's head, as 'it' does (according to your bizarre geometry-breaking claim) in Towner? Your continued avoidance of this problem has been screaming volumes  Thumb1:

I've already dealt with it, the post before last.
Your eyes are telling you that Arce is stood behind and to the left (as we look at it) of Stetson. That Blue Lady is stood behind and left of Arce and that Black Lady is stood behind and left of Blue lady. That they are stood in a diagonal line going backwards with Stetson at the front and Black Lady at the back.
This would put a relatively large distance between Black Lady (#1) and Gray Lady (#2), as Gray Lady, Khaki Man and Stetson are stood in the same forward position.
What you're not realising is that 1) Black Lady is NOT stood behind and to the left of Blue Lady - she is stood directly behind and in between Gray Lady (#2) and Khaki Man and 2) Everyone is stood a lot closer together than you appreciate.
This Weigman pic gives a better understanding of how closely everyone is stood together:

(https://i.postimg.cc/prK4QzPp/Weigman-Stetson-Named.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In Bell we see the Lady in Black (#1) with her arm raised stood in between Khaki and Gray.
In Towner we see exactly the same thing.
In Bell we see Lady #1 waving something furiously in her right hand.
In Towner we see exactly the same thing.
In both Towner and Bell, the thing being waved furiously is in perfect sync.

You simply cannot escape the fact that the Lady in Black (#1) is clearly visible in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtYKVZX/Towner-Alan1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

You cannot escape the fact that in Towner she has her arm raised and is waving something furiously.
She is in exactly the position we would expect to find her - behind and to the left of Lady#2 and in between Lady#2 and Khaki Man.

You can try and pretend that the black raised arm is a red shirt. That's fine.
Instead of dealing with the points I raise, you can say I'm hallucinating or lost. That's fine.
But you cannot escape the fact that the Lady in Black is clearly visible in Towner.
It's not my fault you don't understand perspective or PoV.

The trouble is you really need me to be wrong. That's why you're in denial.
Otherwise "The Ballad of Oswald's Flag" is no more.

If it's just going to be name calling or stamping your little foot, don't bother.
If it's going to be a genuine argument with evidence to support it, knock yourself out.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 26, 2023, 12:45:14 PM
Thanks for this, Mr. Mason, it's an interesting suggestion. Hughes shows Mr. Oswald's head go in and out of that shadow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)

You both know it's Lovelady on the steps so give it a rest.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 26, 2023, 01:08:09 PM
You simply cannot escape the fact that the Lady in Black (#1) is clearly visible in Towner:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtYKVZX/Towner-Alan1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

~Grin~

This one's up there with mad Mr. Doyle's You cannot escape the fact that Davidson's enhancement shows Sarah Stanton's face.

If the red area in Towner that you have rather bizarrely identified as Lady#1's black [sic.!] arm (despite the fact that she's in short sleeves!) were indeed Lady#1's black arm (despite the fact that she's in short sleeves!), then Bell would be showing what Towner is showing: the fluttering object going directly behind the head of khaki man.

But Bell doesn't show that in the synced frames. As in, at all:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

You can keep pushing your geometry-defying hallucination to your heart's content, Mr. O'Meara, but your failure to explain away this simple circumstance means your 'analysis' remains DOA.

P.S. Wiegman does not show Lady#1 in the exact same spot as she's in in Bell/Towner. If it did, then she would show up in Bell very differently: with her face either fully or substantially blocked by khaki man's head. She moved position between Bell/Towner and Wiegman. But nice try!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 26, 2023, 01:09:13 PM
You both know it's Lovelady on the steps so give it a rest.

'You're not still doing the Lovelady-On-A-Box routine, are you?'

 :D
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 27, 2023, 12:22:57 AM
Ok, I think I agree with Dan on this one because of the amazing coincidence of the waving in both Towner and Bell film relative to the black cowboy hat man in white shirt and pants.

But what’s the red element to the right side of the raised black armed waving flag lady, in the Towner film?
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 27, 2023, 12:40:39 AM
Ok, I think I agree with Dan on this one because of the amazing coincidence of the waving in both Towner and Bell film relative to the black cowboy hat man in white shirt and pants.

What amazing coincidence? Lots of people are waving. It's a Presidential Parade.

The fluttering coming from the hand of the lady in black in Bell is, in the synced frames, at all times clearly east of khaki man's head. Therefore it cannot be what shows up right behind khaki man's head in Towner. A geometric impossibility.

And we see Red Shirt Man (Mr. Oswald) in the same spot he was in in Hughes just a couple of seconds ago, his body now moving in sync with the aggressive downward pumping of the flag:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

Now that would be an amazing coincidence!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Dan O'meara on October 27, 2023, 09:31:31 AM
What amazing coincidence? Lots of people are waving. It's a Presidential Parade.

The fluttering coming from the hand of the lady in black in Bell is, in the synced frames, at all times clearly east of khaki man's head. Therefore it cannot be what shows up right behind khaki man's head in Towner. A geometric impossibility.

And we see Red Shirt Man (Mr. Oswald) in the same spot he was in in Hughes just a couple of seconds ago, his body now moving in sync with the aggressive downward pumping of the flag:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

Now that would be an amazing coincidence!

"The fluttering coming from the hand of the lady in black in Bell is...at all times clearly east of khaki man's head"

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4MddbS6/Towner-Alan2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 27, 2023, 09:35:36 AM
"The fluttering coming from the hand of the lady in black in Bell is...at all times clearly east of khaki man's head"

(https://i.postimg.cc/hv639gTc/Towner-Alan2.png) (https://postimg.cc/bS0Th7mB)

~Grin~

Your sly use of ellipses gives away that you know darn well what the problem is.

Here are the words you excised in quoting me: "in the synced frames"

So! Compare the frame you have just posted with ANY one of the synced frames. See the difference in the position of the Lady#1's hand? That difference right there is why your argument is bust.
 
Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 28, 2023, 01:07:11 AM
Well, if you can show us a sample of the fetching two-tone number DPD issued for that season, we're all eyes

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/c2/b8/f8/c2b8f8237f33f1f88e69f4a8752b0040.jpg)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Michael Welch on October 28, 2023, 06:59:39 AM
Hi Chris and Zeon, This is a mystery lady in blue carrying a camera and Rosemary Willis in white and red, running from right to left, and they end up in between Billy and Maddie but are closer to the camera on the south side of Elm Street. They add the various blue or white, and red to Hughes. Thank you both for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_11.gif)

I read somewhere recently that the Mystery Camera Woman in blue is Wilma Bond. I do not think the pictures she took of the entrance of the TSBD made it into her collection. It is too bad that so many films and pictures were confiscated. Just as the media was immediately controlled for example Mary Woodward's story written before President Kennedy was pronounced dead. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
 
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 29, 2023, 09:48:52 AM
~Grin~

Your sly use of ellipses gives away that you know darn well what the problem is.

Here are the words you excised in quoting me: "in the synced frames"

So! Compare the frame you have just posted with ANY one of the synced frames. See the difference in the position of the Lady#1's hand? That difference right there is why your argument is bust.
 
Thumb1:

Friends, Mr. O'Meara's little piece of sneakiness gave the game away in the most amusing fashion.

The full sequence from Bell shows Lady#1 (the lady in black) move her hand west to a point where it appears to be behind khaki man's head:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLv6xTn0/Bell-spectators-cropped.gif)

But! In the Bell frames that Mr. Davidson synced with Towner, she hasn't yet started moving her hand west. It is still appearing visibly east of khaki man's head. Nor is there anything in her hand blowing to her right (viewer's left) such as might make up the gap between her hand and the back of his head------------nope, we are at all times afforded an unobstructed view of the white TSBD stonework in the background:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnVFPb5v/Bell-spectators-cropped-sync.gif)

And yet a waving object is already making its appearance behind khaki man's head in the SYNCED Towner frames. Look at the last paused frame here:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyyNsKnH/Belltowner-comp.gif)

How is this possible? Easy: the waving object that appears in Towner behind khaki man's head is coming from the doorway. There is no other rational explanation.

Had Miss Towner kept her camera on the doorway another couple of seconds, then Lady#1's hand might well have appeared in front of the object waving in the doorway. But the synced frames allow us to categorically rule out the fluttering coming from her hand as the source of the waving object in Towner.

So---------------after all Mr. O'Meara's blowhard huffing and puffing, after all his bad-faith gaslighting----------------we're back just where we started:

Red Shirt Man energetically waving a flag (or somesuch) at Pres. Kennedy:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSNZRqhK/Towner-red-shirt-flag.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2Z5SKx/Towner-red-shirt-flag-contrast.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 30, 2023, 02:02:37 AM
I’m Towner, Not only the head is missing, but there’s no body of Oswald either so I’m not sure leaning against the west wall would provide enough shadow to completely hide Oswald’s body.

So 1. the flapping flag banner thingy must be obscuring all of the body of Oswald , while just his head is in the shadow ,
or 2. he is bending down so both his head and body are behind the banner,
or 3. conspirators added black spray to remove the head and upper body, 
or 4. the flapping thingy is the flag of the woman behind black hat cowboy man and the different perspective angle of Towner vs Bell shifts the position of the woman relative to the TSBD behind the woman.

I’d like to rule out option 4. because it would ruin a whole year of logical speculation that was necessary to replace the previous  logically speculated PM theory.

I’ll have to wait and see if some people with computer programs that generate perspective views from fixed points in plan view can determine if the flag waving woman’s position can shift from being in front of the perforated wall to be in front of the TSBD entrance.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Alan Ford on October 30, 2023, 09:29:11 AM
I’ll have to wait and see if some people with computer programs that generate perspective views from fixed points in plan view can determine if the flag waving woman’s position can shift from being in front of the perforated wall to be in front of the TSBD entrance.

No need to wait and see, Mr. Mason-------------just look at the synced frames using your own two eyes. Mr. O'Meara has already done that. It's why he felt the need to edit my words!
 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 06, 2023, 03:32:15 AM
To continue on with this Oswald flag waving theory , then there must be a plausible explanation for the absence of Oswald’s  head and body in the Towner film.
 
A. The camera was focused on the foreground and thus the background area behind Carl Jones is just dark because it’s out of focus?

B. The original Towner film DID have head and body of Oswald  in sunlight and the conspirators/ cover Up artists blackened out this area behind Carl Jones similar to the shadow on Lovelady in Weigman film?

If neither A nor B are plausible then imo, the PM= Oswald theory should be revisited

Reasons to revisit :
1.The arms of PM do NOT appear to be like those of a woman’s bare arms because of what appears to be dark pixelated portions of the forearm that suggest a man’s hairy arm and a muscular shape more similar to Oswald’s arms than to Pauline Sanders.
2. The object in PMs hands are less likely to be a camera, lighter, white bread, or a small white coffee cup than to be simply a bottle of soda held in the hand with a white napkin.
3. The head shape of PM resembles Oswald’s oblong shaped face more so than Pauline Sanders round face
4. PM is not wearing any glasses.
5. The hair shape is more similar to Oswald’s than to Sanders.
6. A vast majority of CTs as well as Marina Oswald herself , think the PM figure resembles  Oswald.
7. The west corner  of the TSBD entrance is the most probable place Oswald could be and NOT have been noticed.
8. It may be possible that The 5’2” height of PM relative to BW Frazier, can be demonstrated as Oswald standing with BOTH feet on one 7” step lower than the top landing and no part of body is illuminated by sunlight.
9. There is no statement from Pauline Sanders to  suggest she moved from east side of the TSBD landing to PMs position.
10. Coincidentally , a bottle was left at the west side step approximately where PM would be standing on one step lower than the top landing.
10b. Sanders did not have a bottle of soda.
11. The bottle by the steps is NOT  likely the Dr.Pepper seen in the photo of DPD police officers hands as it is questionable if a police officer would leave a bottle on steps ( littering) rather than discard it properly.
12. Only 2 persons in this thread have claimed that  another version of film frames from Darnell film must be accepted as proof that the neckline of PM cannot be Oswald’s .
13. The PM theory fits well with the timeline of Oswald having at 12:25 -12:27 been in the Domino room and saw Harold Norman and James Jarman going past as they reentered TSBD via back loading dock door.
14.To believe that Oswald could be unfurling a flag and vigorously waving it while in FRONT of  BW.Frazier and obscuring Loveladys LOS, and that neither of these men would remember that detail has no reasonable explanation. Fear or complicity By remaining silent or “missing the gorilla in the midst of basketball player” because of focus on the POTUS , are all improbable explanations.
15. The last from BW Frazier about who PM was suggests he MAY have actually seen Oswald there as PM because BWF thought at first PM was Lovelady only to realize later that Lovelady had left the steps. BWF Changing his mind to suggest he’s 100% certain PM is not Oswald while simultaneously suggesting 100% UNCERTAINTY who PM is, is an absurd statement. Perhaps at this late stage BWF needs to undergo hypnosis to retrieve what is buried in his subconscious mind.

In conclusion, the PM=Oswald theory is the simpler theory that fits the Domino room 12:25-27 timeline well, allows a very plausible explanation how Oswald was unnoticed standing quietly in the west back corner of the TSBD landing drinking his coke or Dr Pepper, and requires no convoluted alternate plot of mischief involving JFK himself.
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on November 07, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
To continue on with this Oswald flag waving theory , then there must be a plausible explanation for the absence of Oswald’s  head and body in the Towner film.
 
A. The camera was focused on the foreground and thus the background area behind Carl Jones is just dark because it’s out of focus?

B. The original Towner film DID have head and body of Oswald  in sunlight and the conspirators/ cover Up artists blackened out this area behind Carl Jones similar to the shadow on Lovelady in Weigman film?

If neither A nor B are plausible then imo, the PM= Oswald theory should be revisited

Reasons to revisit :
1.The arms of PM do NOT appear to be like those of a woman’s bare arms because of what appears to be dark pixelated portions of the forearm that suggest a man’s hairy arm and a muscular shape more similar to Oswald’s arms than to Pauline Sanders.
2. The object in PMs hands are less likely to be a camera, lighter, white bread, or a small white coffee cup than to be simply a bottle of soda held in the hand with a white napkin.
3. The head shape of PM resembles Oswald’s oblong shaped face more so than Pauline Sanders round face
4. PM is not wearing any glasses.
5. The hair shape is more similar to Oswald’s than to Sanders.
6. A vast majority of CTs as well as Marina Oswald herself , think the PM figure resembles  Oswald.
7. The west corner  of the TSBD entrance is the most probable place Oswald could be and NOT have been noticed.
8. It may be possible that The 5’2” height of PM relative to BW Frazier, can be demonstrated as Oswald standing with BOTH feet on one 7” step lower than the top landing and no part of body is illuminated by sunlight.
9. There is no statement from Pauline Sanders to  suggest she moved from east side of the TSBD landing to PMs position.
10. Coincidentally , a bottle was left at the west side step approximately where PM would be standing on one step lower than the top landing.
10b. Sanders did not have a bottle of soda.
11. The bottle by the steps is NOT  likely the Dr.Pepper seen in the photo of DPD police officers hands as it is questionable if a police officer would leave a bottle on steps ( littering) rather than discard it properly.
12. Only 2 persons in this thread have claimed that  another version of film frames from Darnell film must be accepted as proof that the neckline of PM cannot be Oswald’s .
13. The PM theory fits well with the timeline of Oswald having at 12:25 -12:27 been in the Domino room and saw Harold Norman and James Jarman going past as they reentered TSBD via back loading dock door.
14.To believe that Oswald could be unfurling a flag and vigorously waving it while in FRONT of  BW.Frazier and obscuring Loveladys LOS, and that neither of these men would remember that detail has no reasonable explanation. Fear or complicity By remaining silent or “missing the gorilla in the midst of basketball player” because of focus on the POTUS , are all improbable explanations.
15. The last from BW Frazier about who PM was suggests he MAY have actually seen Oswald there as PM because BWF thought at first PM was Lovelady only to realize later that Lovelady had left the steps. BWF Changing his mind to suggest he’s 100% certain PM is not Oswald while simultaneously suggesting 100% UNCERTAINTY who PM is, is an absurd statement. Perhaps at this late stage BWF needs to undergo hypnosis to retrieve what is buried in his subconscious mind.

In conclusion, the PM=Oswald theory is the simpler theory that fits the Domino room 12:25-27 timeline well, allows a very plausible explanation how Oswald was unnoticed standing quietly in the west back corner of the TSBD landing drinking his coke or Dr Pepper, and requires no convoluted alternate plot of mischief involving JFK himself.

Oswald had plenty of opportunities to give an alibi but he never did because he couldn't, Oswald was on the 6th floor killing the President!

Oswald: "I work in that building."
Reporter: "Were you in that building at the time?"
Oswald: "Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir."


@1:19 hear Oswald's own voice.


Btw Oswald waving a flag? Hahahahaha.

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 09, 2023, 01:11:24 AM
Well, Mr Mytton, just because you HaHaHa this alternative speculative theory by Mr Ford , that Oswald was waving a banner/ flag/ something, as part of an JFK directed alternate flag shooting plot…

And just because Oswald  never mentioned anything to his wife, mother, brother, or in front of cameras about being out on the front steps at the time of shooting…

And just because there’s an odd absence of any  head or body of Oswald , in the Towner film or in the Weigman film , where Oswald is  supposedly shaking a flag with his curtain rod flag banner, just behind Carl Jones ..

And just because there is  the same amount of white T-shirt shirt of the Hughes “red shirt “ (RSM) man as there is of Loveladys white T-shirt   in Weigman…

NEVER THE LESS… I’m remaining a suspicious CT until whatever end, because there’s always hope, and Gandalf said look
for him on the 3rd day at dawn.. and besides we have Aragorn and Gimli the dwarf on our side!
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on November 09, 2023, 02:34:58 AM
Well, Mr Mytton, just because you HaHaHa this alternative speculative theory by Mr Ford , that Oswald was waving a banner/ flag/ something, as part of an JFK directed alternate flag shooting plot…

And just because Oswald  never mentioned anything to his wife, mother, brother, or in front of cameras about being out on the front steps at the time of shooting…

And just because there’s an odd absence of any  head or body of Oswald , in the Towner film or in the Weigman film , where Oswald is  supposedly shaking a flag with his curtain rod flag banner, just behind Carl Jones ..

And just because there is  the same amount of white T-shirt shirt of the Hughes “red shirt “ (RSM) man as there is of Loveladys white T-shirt   in Weigman…

NEVER THE LESS… I’m remaining a suspicious CT until whatever end, because there’s always hope, and Gandalf said look
for him on the 3rd day at dawn.. and besides we have Aragorn and Gimli the dwarf on our side!

Quote
And just because Oswald  never mentioned anything to his wife, mother, brother, or in front of cameras about being out on the front steps at the time of shooting…

Oswald: "I work in that building."
Reporter: "Were you in that building at the time?"
Oswald: "Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir."


or

Oswald: "I work in that building."
Reporter: "Were you in that building at the time?"
Oswald: "No sir, I was outside on the steps"


JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 09, 2023, 03:05:00 AM
I could offer the explanation that Oswald decided to remain silent about being outside on the steps because he had Delusions of Grandeur (DOG) disorder, and was already figuring on a grand lawsuit for wrongful arrest after he got the lawyer he preferred who would find some photo of Oswald later..

But I thought my Gandalf saving the day at Helms Deep was just a good an explanation :)
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: John Mytton on November 09, 2023, 03:22:04 AM
I could offer the explanation that Oswald decided to remain silent about being outside on the steps because he had Delusions of Grandeur (DOG) disorder, and was already figuring on a grand lawsuit for wrongful arrest after he got the lawyer he preferred who would find some photo of Oswald later..

But I thought my Gandalf saving the day at Helms Deep was just a good an explanation :)

Quote
But I thought my Gandalf saving the day at Helms Deep was just a good an explanation :)

 Thumb1:

(https://www.syfy.com/sites/syfy/files/gandalf-horse.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 20, 2023, 11:09:28 PM
Well we CTs  ( maybe just me alone) )have waited here at Helms  Deep anxiously awaiting for Gandalf or somebody to save the day and explain the absence of a body / head of Oswald in Towner film or Weigman film.

If that has no plausible explanation, then either we must  revive the PM Oswald theory before the Orcs completely crash thru and take the fortress , or the remaining few of us CTs must flee thru the mountain pass and take refuge at our last best defense: The Domino Room at 12:25.

Since I’m just that  Old guy at the Keep who shot that arrow accidentally that caused the Orcs to go from just stamping their feet to full out assault  on the Oswald shaking Flag theory, then I have to try to sound the horn of Helms Deep one last time.

So here goes with the last volley of speculative possibilities to save the day:

A. This other version of Darnell film (which has been introduced and uses one ring to find them all (CTs) and in the darkness bind them , a white ring around the neck, of PM so it appears, ) may not be the actual image of the actual original film.?  How many people have seen the actual original film of Darnell? Is there a significant majority agreement among them that there is an image effect of a white ring around the neck of PM?

B. If A is positively verified beyond reasonable doubt  image of a  fuzzy white ring around PMs neck, are there any other explanations for it other than than it’s a woman’s dress effect?

Possible Explanations for B:

1. The image is corrupted ( possibly manipulated ? To deceive the inhabitants of Middle Earth to see only what Sauron ( the deep state) intends  should be seen?

2. PM is Oswald wearing BOTH jackets, the inner lighter gray ( almost white) jacket with lighter collar having protruded out over the darker blue jacket which he had sleeves pushed up to expose his forearms because he got a little hot?

C. As to an explanation for the absence of Oswald’s head and or body being illuminated and seen in Towner or Weigman, I shoot my last 2 arrows:

1. The background area of the front steps in Towner and Weigman are out of focus so thereby causing darkness where there should logically be some illumination of Oswald.?

2. There was some conspirator alteration of Towner and Weigman by adding darkness BECAUSE Oswald’s head and body were seen in the original films.?

Okay that’s about it, and the Orcs outside are beginning to pound on the door and since I do not have a horse like Aragorn and King Theoden, I’m going to have to retreat with the Dwarf and the Elf if the last door gets broken down, and hopefully another defense of Oswald can be set up at the Domino Room at 12:25.