It was pure MAGIC!! If you look at his displayed jacket in Texas, the hole in the clothe is larger at back then it is at the front which would indicate a frontal missile. As far as wrist concern, there is a lot of debate in the testimony as well. As I said, he gave a really good speech from his hospital bed a mere 5 days later, even though he had many wounds - not even a cough, arm in a sling.
Some of the testimony:
Mr. Specter.He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.
Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest."
Your OP is misleading and loaded - before you start talking about JC and his wounds, you need to prove that CE 399 hit anyone in the Presidential limousine. How are you going to do that considering it was not known which gurney the bullet was found on. Was there any human DNA present on CE 399 that could be specifically associated with anyone?
Arlen Sector, inadvertently I suspect, shows a bullet path over JFK's shoulder and into JBC's back.
Most likely from a upper floor on the western end of the TSBD.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/SBT%204.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/SBT5.jpg)
John,
You have heard of the word fabrication? They fired the bullet from the wrong side before the suit jacket was hung out for display! You want to go for a real good explanation - bury yourself for an hour in this documentary! They will let you in on how it can be done! Look from about 23:00.
You have heard of the word fabrication?
They fired the bullet from the wrong side before the suit jacket was hung out for display!
You want to go for a real good explanation - bury yourself for an hour in this documentary! They will let you in on how it can be done! Look from about 23:00.
John,
That is the million dollar question and how this bullet became magic. If you look at the argument laid out in the article below, this bullet appeared to be PRISTINE!
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html)
"Pristine" Bullet. Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet found on the stretcher, is virtually undamaged and had no blood or tissue on it. Its appearance is consistent with having been fired through the rifle into water or cotton, recovered, and then planted. Also, there is a serious question as to whether the minimal amount of lead missing from the base of CE-399 can account for the fragments left behind in JFK and Connally.
You don't have any answers either, just another pointless and speculative thread on highly speculative and contencious "evidence" that can never be proved one way or another.
All the WC really cared about was that all shots were fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor by LHO. The WC wasn't worried about the firing sequence and what bullet hit what and when.
Go and prove CE 399 went through anyone in the Presidential limousine.
Your OP is misleading and loaded - before you start talking about JC and his wounds, you need to prove that CE 399 hit anyone in the Presidential limousine. How are you going to do that considering it was not known which gurney the bullet was found on. Was there any human DNA present on CE 399 that could be specifically associated with anyone?
John,
That is the million dollar question and how this bullet became magic. If you look at the argument laid out in the article below, this bullet appeared to be PRISTINE!
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html)
"Pristine" Bullet. Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet found on the stretcher, is virtually undamaged and had no blood or tissue on it. Its appearance is consistent with having been fired through the rifle into water or cotton, recovered, and then planted. Also, there is a serious question as to whether the minimal amount of lead missing from the base of CE-399 can account for the fragments left behind in JFK and Connally.
This isn't difficult Tony, how could Connally be shot from behind without CE399 first passing through Kennedy?Even if it wasn't CE399, a bullet passing through JFK from the entry in the back through to the throat wound is going to hit something in the limousine. The only hole that fits is the one next to John Connally's scapula. It's worth remembering that CE399 and the SBT are independent of each other.
How do you know CE 399 went through JC and that it struck JFK first?
This is what happens when no one challenges the conclusions of the WC.
"Although Tomlinson was not certain whether the bullet came from the Connally stretcher or the adjacent one, the Commission has concluded that the bullet came from the Governor's stretcher."
Was JFK "in the way" of the bullet that hit JC if the bullet came from another location from above and behind?
How do you know the origin of the bullet that hit JC?
How do you know the origin of the bullet that hit JC?
None of those pictures prove that CE 399 hit anyone.
If the SBT was that "obvious", as you are trying to assert, why didn't the WC buy into it?
The only thing you can say was that a bullet hit JC from above and behind.
Not one person saw a weapon discharge from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.
That includes Brennan.
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?You're better than this Tony. Your thread about the paper bag is well argued and worthy of consideration by all posters here.
There have been at least 20 CE 399/SBT threads that all end up the same - Going in circles and unsolvable.
You found the magic panacea that no one else has?
If the SBT was that "obvious", as you are trying to assert, why didn't the WC buy into it?
The only thing you can say was that a bullet hit JC from above and behind.
Not one person saw a weapon discharge from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.
That includes Brennan.
If the SBT was that "obvious", as you are trying to assert, why didn't the WC buy into it?
The only thing you can say was that a bullet hit JC from above and behind.
Not one person saw a weapon discharge from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?
There have been at least 20 CE 399/SBT threads that all end up the same - Going in circles and unsolvable.
You found the magic panacea that no one else has?
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?
There have been at least 20 CE 399/SBT threads that all end up the same - Going in circles and unsolvable.
You found the magic panacea that no one else has?
Steve, based on the angle and trajectory, JC was hit from above and behind.
Based on the prosectors who performed the autopsy on JFK, no evidence of a through and through wound was found.
You know something they didn't?
When the bullet hit JC, which ever Z frame that was at, you - nor anyone else - knows the exact position of both men nor the exact location of the shot. Do you?
No one - computer or physical reproduction - has even come close to reproducing the SBT. MYER's error cone can not exclude the Dal-Tex building.
You also can not rule out an alternative firing position from above and behind.
For a bullet to have gone over JFK'S right shoulder and to have missed him, how much bullet diameter are we talking about here?
No one - computer or physical reproduction - has even come close to reproducing the SBT. MYER's error cone can not exclude the Dal-Tex building.
You also can not rule out an alternative firing position from above and behind.
For a bullet to have gone over JFK'S right shoulder and to have missed him, how much bullet diameter are we talking about here?
No one - computer or physical reproduction - has even come close to reproducing the SBT. MYER's error cone can not exclude the Dal-Tex building.
You don't know the exact position of both men and the Z frame JFK is first hit. Humans react and behave differently to being shot.
You don't know the exact position of both men and the Z frame JFK is first hit.
Humans react and behave differently to being shot.
Do you honestly believe a professional assassin would leave any evidence behind?
Both JFK and JC were equally affected by the slope of Elm Street.
Can you rule out a shot from anywhere else from above and behind?
Start with the Dal-Tex.
Do you honestly believe a professional assassin would leave any evidence behind?
Both JFK and JC were equally affected by the slope of Elm Street.
Can you rule out a shot from anywhere else from above and behind?
Start with the Dal-Tex.
That is called an animation and is not a reflection of reality. An team from SA, used anatomically correct torsos and used very accurate measurements - the bullet came out of "JFK'S" LHS chest following the natural trajectory of the shot from the SE corner of the 6th floor. According to the WC, the transiting bullet was meant to come out from the throat. They effectively debunked the SBT.
Now place the follow up car just behind the Presidential limo - any one recalled a bullet wizzing over their right hand side?
In the reconstructions, the SS follow up car was absent - why?
An team from SA, used anatomically correct torsos
Which Z frame was JFK hit? How do you know JC wasn't reacting to hearing a shot - he was startled at hearing the crack of the shot?
No evasion - your entire thread is a waste of time...
No they used measurements based on tailor fitted clothing and on height. Do you think Meyers had better measurements?
Based on trajectory the bullet did not exit out of the throat AS IT MUST according to the WC.
Thats a fail.
Even more humorous, they got a qualified Dr to examine the results of the simulated shooting - he concluded that the wounds were due to two separate shots. Oooops.
No evasion - your entire thread is a waste of time....
And you call me a troll?
Which Z frame was JFK hit? How do you know JC wasn't reacting to hearing a shot - he was startled at hearing the crack of the shot?
In a Melbourne Cup I'd back the speed of a bullet over the speed of sound every time.
Do you believe everyone that reads these threads have the same background knowledge?
There are a stack of problems with CE 399 and the SBT - it isn't as simple as you propose.
Do you believe everyone that reads these threads have the same background knowledge?
There are a stack of problems with CE 399 and the SBT - it isn't as simple as you propose.
No, i am highlighting where you are wrong.
I can delete all my posts if you want - no problems with me. But those issues will still be there JohnM.
No, i am highlighting where you are wrong.
I can delete all my posts if you want - no problems with me. But those issues will still be there JohnM.
JohnM, you are speculating on what happened. If JFK was hit while behind the sign, why is JC reacting now?
At 2000 feet per second, the bullet had already gone through both men. When did it?
The issue is simple - was JFK sitting in the correct position and orientation to allow CE 399 to transit from his upper right back through the lower third of the neck below the Adam's apple and then enter at the extreme right side of JC's back at a point below his right armpit.
All the best in proving that JohnM, especially when the prosectors didn't.
All the best in proving that JohnM, especially when the prosectors didn't.
Do you now acknowledge that the bullet was faster than sound when it struck? You said earlier Connally might have been reacting to the sound rather than a bullet strike.
Let me guess Jack, your "two shot hypothesis" is absolutely reliant on the SBT and everyone (majority of witnesses) who heard three distinct shots were "mistaken"?
So those researchers looking for the "lost bullet" were just wasting their time because only two shots were ever fired. ;D
No one has said that CE 399 was planted.
What you have to prove was that CE 399 went through anyone on 22/11/1963.
List your evidence:
Note - speculation is not evidence.
If JFK was hit before he goes behind the sign, then so is JC with 5 wounds. How then was JC able to turn around and look at JFK with shattered ribs and a cracked wrist?
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?
And not one person saw anyone anywhere else in Dealey Plaza with a rifle! and besides the President of the USA was driving by and you reckon that people should be looking for Oswald up on the 6th floor, wow, get a grip!
Well maybe if the shells and rifle were found in the DAL tex building then you may have something but till then please stop embarrassing yourself.
No they used measurements based on tailor fitted clothing and on height. Do you think Meyers had better measurements?
Common sense ain't so common, at least not when it comes to CKs.
Brennan 11/23 Dallas Morning News by Kent Biffle.
"After the first shot, I looked up and saw him. The gun was sticking out the window. I saw him fire a second time."
Brennan said a lot of things.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.
No recoil. No flash. Only an upward "bounce" that a different style grip would arrest.
Connally was hit at the right armpit and a bullet exited under his right nipple, how did a bullet get to Connally?You can't tell what the path was from the SN unless you know where the car was when the second bullet struck. According to Nellie it was after she looked rearward toward JFK. She is still looking at him at z256. According to Altgens, there was only one shot before his z256 photo. According to Greer, it prompted him to turn to the rear for the first time immediately, which he did at z278-280. According to over 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between 1 and 3. According to Hickey and, perhaps, Kinney, JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time of the second shot. You will notice JBC start sailing forward immediately after z272. JFK's hair flies up from z273-276. The sun visor above Greer's head, that was hit by a bullet fragment, moves up between z271-272. All of that is pretty consistent and points to a shot at z271-72. At that point, JFK has already received his neck wound and the third shot causes the head wound has not occurred. So shot no. 2 missed him. If it just missed the right side of his head, which fits with what Hickey observed, it must have hit JBC on the right side. To see if a shot from the SN has a clear path at that point, just put the car where it was at z272 and see how they line up.
In the following images we can see where the men must have been and if you don't agree with these recreations then tell us how much you have to move the two men before there is a clear trajectory directly to Connally and don't forget to consider Connally's injuries....
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-b68RLYoo4EU/WVmQAPxNlcI/AAAAAAABMPs/PwSw45SpOJEmga7EDTImVTkxjPniVc1vQCLcBGAs/s1600/SBT_Rendering_Reclaiming_History.gif)
JohnM
Ok, so smoke and a bounce rather than a flash and a recoil. ::)
But how did Brennan know that it was being fired, then? And how did he see both the rifle being fired and JFK's head explode?
The "bounce" is unique to the animation.
Maybe he saw some wisp of smoke or figured it was being fired from the sound. Claiming to see the President's head explode came later; it's not in his affidavit of Nov. 22 or WC testimony.
You can't tell what the path was from the SN unless you know where the car was when the second bullet struck. According to Nellie it was after she looked rearward toward JFK. She is still looking at him at z256. According to Altgens, there was only one shot before his z256 photo. According to Greer, it prompted him to turn to the rear for the first time immediately, which he did at z278-280. According to over 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between 1 and 3. According to Hickey and, perhaps, Kinney, JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time of the second shot. You will notice JBC start sailing forward immediately after z272. JFK's hair flies up from z273-276. The sun visor above Greer's head, that was hit by a bullet fragment, moves up between z271-272. All of that is pretty consistent and points to a shot at z271-72. At that point, JFK has already received his neck wound and the third shot causes the head wound has not occurred. So shot no. 2 missed him. If it just missed the right side of his head, which fits with what Hickey observed, it must have hit JBC on the right side. To see if a shot from the SN has a clear path at that point, just put the car where it was at z272 and see how they line up.
Keep in mind JFK has moved left toward Jackie quite a bit and JBC has turned quite a bit to the right with his right armpit facing the SN. His right wrist is pronated so the back of the wrist is against his right chest.
If you put the car at z272 with the angle of the car to a line from the SN much smaller because the road turns to that the SN is almost directly behind, you can easily see that a path from the SN to the right side of JFK's head goes into JBC's right armpit:
Arlen actually demonstrated how it could be done - by the bullet passing just above JFK's right shoulder.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2mfd4zo.jpg)
You asked the question and Arlen just showed you how it was possible - all it needed was the diameter of the bullet above JFK's right shoulder and there you go - you miss JFK and strike JC.
You can not rule out a shot from the Dal-Tex nor can you place Lee's hands on any rifle.
You asked the question and Arlen just showed you how it was possible - all it needed was the diameter of the bullet above JFK's right shoulder and there you go - you miss JFK and strike JC.
You can not rule out a shot from the Dal-Tex
Many official committees looked at the SBT and to see if it was possible.
The problem is abundantly clear - JFK had to be in a specific position and posture to allow an alignment at ONE specific moment in time.
There is disagreement as to when the first shot struck anyone in the Presidential Limo let alone the possibility of an alignment between both men.
That's why the WC didn't pursue it. It was an exercise in futility.
Yep and one of Oswald's bullets was unaccounted for, 3 shots 3 hits is perfectly plausible but we do have to consider Connally's back wound which was linear in shape indicating a tumbling bullet, how does a bullet start tumbling?
The evidence is that the rifle that fired the shots was found on the 6th floor of the Depository, someone with a rifle was seen on the 6th floor of the Depository, 3 shells were found by the window on the 6th floor of the Depository, Harold Norman heard a bolt action rifle and what sounded like shells hitting the floor right above his head. And so far there is not one single piece of evidence that supports any manufacturing or planting of evidence.
Now putting aside any personal gut instinct, when a scientist examines the above so far undisputed evidence what must their conclusion be?
JohnM
I am glad that you asked.
It took 61 cm (24 inches) of ballistic gel before the bullet started to tumble.
I don't believe JFK's neck was anywhere near that width.
According to the WC - the bullet that transited JFK struck no bone and left a very small circular hole in the throat - so why would it tumble between both men?
How do you know the bullet didn't strike JC at a tangent hence leaving a larger hole?
Dr. Robert Shaw elongated the back wound on JC by tissue debridement. He also corrected his official report which contained an error.
So much for a tumbling bullet.
What you cant discount was that both men were hit by separate bullets fired by two gunmen located above and behind the President.
Arlen actually demonstrated how it could be done - by the bullet passing just above JFK's right shoulder.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2mfd4zo.jpg)
You mean Arlen was standing next to the assassin with a movie camera and saw there was no possibility of JC being struck by a bullet 6.5 mm in diameter because JFK was in the way?
Who has shown that any bullet had transited JFK?
You posted image wasnt a reflection of when the shots were being fired Jack.
Yep and one of Oswald's bullets was unaccounted for, 3 shots 3 hits is perfectly plausible but we do have to consider Connally's back wound which was linear in shape indicating a tumbling bullet, how does a bullet start tumbling?Actually, it was described by Dr. Shaw as an elliptical wound. He did not describe a wound that was inconsistent with a pristine bullet striking at an angle.
What can't be disputed is that both men are reacting simultaneously, you can give excuses like Connally heard a sound but viewing the footage makes claims like that pure nonsense.The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.
In the first frames as they emerge from behind the sign all seems well.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-94Smfj5-wQ4/UolSwlgbXNI/AAAAAAAAw1w/2t04L3GlQPY/s527/110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif)
Connally's jacket billows.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2jvdam4bt00/VVfoJFx064I/AAAAAAABGGI/pKHXhM1_PmY/s1600/Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif)Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).
Both men violently react, Connally's right wrist the one that was hit and Kennedy both show a similar reaction to something traumatic.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif)They are reacting at the same time, although if his clenched hand positions are part of his reaction it seems that JFK's reaction had already begun prior to z224. If so, their reactions did not begin simultaneously. The evidence of JBC and Nellie was that JFK and JBC did react at the same time that way - to the first shot.
And in full motion the simultaneous reaction is clear as day and only dishonest people would deny they are moving at the same time.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/_/rsrc/1371679761456/neckwound/jfk-arm-over-rail-01.jpg) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_alt5Groden.jpg) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/TOWNER2.JPG) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z162.jpg) |
I am challenging that CE 399 went through JFK.
I believe I have answered the OP - whatever hit JC missed JFK by going just over his right shoulder.
How do you expect anyone to work out what bullet hit who and when, when not even the WC was able to?
So go ahead and try and connect CE 399 to JFK or to JC.
How do u account for the damage to the Limo, bullets hitting the pavement and the strike to Tague?
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.
Bullet through Connally ca. Z223 | Bullet through Connally ca. Z271 | |
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2nvv891.jpg) Jacket billowing, right wrist or hat dropped down. Facial reaction/"hat flip" immediately after this animation | (http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg) Do you see anything so compelling in Mason's proposed area where Connally was struck in torso and wrist? |
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).
They are reacting at the same time, although if his clenched hand positions are part of his reaction it seems that JFK's reaction had already begun prior to z224. If so, their reactions did not begin simultaneously. The evidence of JBC and Nellie was that JFK and JBC did react at the same time that way - to the first shot.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdorableDifferentArmednylonshrimp-small.gif) | (https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DamagedLastingAiredale-small.gif) |
I would suggest looking at the position of JFK's left elbow before he disappears behind the sign and comparing to the movement it makes after it reappears. As far as I can tell, it's in the same position at 224 as it was in 196. Then it moves up very abruptly, and very high.(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)
Bullet through Connally ca. Z223 Bullet through Connally ca. Z271 (http://i65.tinypic.com/2nvv891.jpg)
Jacket billowing, right wrist or hat
dropped down. Facial reaction/"hat flip"
immediately after this animation (http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg)
Do you see anything so compelling
in Mason's proposed area where
Connally was struck in torso and wrist?
Per Mason, Connally (not struck in torso and wrist until after the animation) merely shows concern for JFK. ( And possibly swatting away a fly with his hat )
Kennedy's hand-clench in Z224 could be consistent with how his hand would cup over the other during the motorcade.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/_/rsrc/1373308319398/misc/mason/slumpwitnesses/Z172ff-slump.png)
When Kennedy raises his right arm from the car-rail earlier in the Zapruder film, the hand is clenched-like (Z174). Likewise, lowering the right arm to cup over the other would cause the right hand to be clench-like.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdorableDifferentArmednylonshrimp-small.gif) (https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DamagedLastingAiredale-small.gif)
If you find that credible, then the first voluntary reaction, where the hand begins to change in a fist, would be Z225.
Until the day he died Connally said he had not been shot by the same bullet. He should know,after all he was an hunter,but do go back,and watch,Zapruda film,do it in slow motion. Notice when Kennedy is hit Connally is turned looking at the president,then he is hit.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/_/rsrc/1399757273788/mpi/z200-z249/z228.jpg) |
Until the day he died Connally said he had not been shot by the same bullet. He should know,after all he was an hunter,but do go back,and watch,Zapruda film,do it in slow motion. Notice when Kennedy is hit Connally is turned looking at the president,then he is hit.Connally repeatedly testified that he felt the bullet hit him when he was facing forward. In every version of hist testimony that I'm aware of (NBC/Agronsky, WC, TMWKK) he's the process of trying to turn to his left when he feels a bullet hit him. If you want to use the Zapruder film to pinpoint a shot, you have to account for that turn to the left.
Connally repeatedly testified that he felt the bullet hit him when he was facing forward. In every version of hist testimony that I'm aware of (NBC/Agronsky, WC, TMWKK) he's the process of trying to turn to his left when he feels a bullet hit him. If you want to use the Zapruder film to pinpoint a shot, you have to account for that turn to the left.You are saying he must be right on that point.
This isn't difficult Tony, how could Connally be shot from behind without CE399 first passing through Kennedy?
JohnM
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).
They are reacting at the same time, although if his clenched hand positions are part of his reaction it seems that JFK's reaction had already begun prior to z224. If so, their reactions did not begin simultaneously. The evidence of JBC and Nellie was that JFK and JBC did react at the same time that way - to the first shot.
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).
The WC never showed that CE 399 was relevant or that it was discovered in the way that they claimed. Here are more details regarding the alleged discovery of the "magic bullet."
-------------snip--------------
Once again we see that the claims of the WC are not supported by the actual evidence, thus, their conclusion is sunk again.[/b]
Stop SPAMMING my thread, your wall of words has zero to do with the OP, either answer the question or move along.
JohnM
Only a LNer would equate a post utilizing evidence with spam. That says it all. This poster is NOT here to discuss the actual evidence.
By the way, this is relevant as it shows that CE 399 wasn't relevant. You're just playing games.
Only a LNer would equate a post utilizing evidence with spam.
That says it all.
This poster is NOT here to discuss the actual evidence.
When did l claim that CE 399 was a planted bullet Howard? That accusation is straight out of what David Von Pein used to do when arguing about the SBT ;D
Arlen speculated that CE 399 was found on JC's stretcher despite Tomlinson being unsure. .
The onus is on you to prove that CE 399 went through JFK.
Enlighten us with your SBT facts Howard, not your speculative and unproven opinions.
You want me to quote what Lieutenant Colonel Pierre A. Finck, M.D. MC, USA: Chief of the military environmental pathology division and chief of the wound ballistics pathology branch at Walter Reed Medical Center said should have been done in regards to JFK's upper back wound but was at a loss as to why it wasn't done?
You should be demanding answers from those that could of easily provided them back in 1963, Howard.
When your post is totally off topic and takes ages to scroll through then yes that's the very definition of spam.
It's not a war, settle down.
Go look at my posts in this thread and see a plethora of images and neat stuff whereas again you spam with crap and don't address the topic.
You think you run the place!
JohnM
It looks to me like Connally's jacket is bulging out and I see where you are going with the arm movement so as an experiment I put on a couple of different suits and flung my arms around and really couldn't duplicate it, perhaps someone else can?The jacket appears to be buttoned. In z222 the jacket is closed and looks much the same as in z224. The jacket moves as he moves his right arm exposing more white shirt briefly in 223. If the hat catches the jacket as it moves from front to side that could explain that.
At that point the car is about 200 feet from the SN. Sound travels 1127 feet per second. The bullet travels 2000 fps. Bullet strikes 100 ms after firing. Sound arrives about 177 ms after, or about 1.5 frames (77 ms) after the bullet strikes.
The bullet and the sound don't arrive at the same time, wouldn't the sound be about 2-3 Zapruder frames behind the bullet?
At that point the car is about 200 feet from the SN. Sound travels 1127 feet per second. The bullet travels 2000 fps. Bullet strikes 100 ms after firing. Sound arrives about 177 ms after, or about 1.5 frames (77 ms) after the bullet strikes.
When your post is totally off topic and takes ages to scroll through then yes that's the very definition of spam.
Go look at my posts in this thread and see a plethora of images and neat stuff whereas again you spam with crap and don't address the topic.
You think you run the place!
JohnM
But what can you expect from a guy that can't determine what year a death occurred in even after being shown a gravestone, death certificate and newspaper article proving beyond any doubt precisely when the death occurred.
:D
Yeah you're right, thanks. So a couple of frames after Kennedy was hit at Z223, Connally would hear the shot at Z225?Well, he would have heard it less than 2 frames after the bullet struck JFK. The evidence is pretty consistent that it was the first shot that struck JFK. The first shot definitely occurred before z223. The last two were closer together and in rapid successsion. I can't tell by just looking at the zfilm when the shots occurred. The evidence indicates that JFK in z223 is reacting to being hitby the first shot that occurred before z202.
You are saying he must be right on that point.
In order to determine if he was right one has to look at all the evidence. Nellie said he was turned. He told Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right. Nellie said that she turned to look at JFK after the first shot and never looked back after the second shot. She is turned looking back at JFK until z268.
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z236.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z244.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z247.jpg) | ||
Towards Governor | Same | Same | ||
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z254.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z258.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z262.jpg) | ||
Towards Governor | Towards Kennedy | Same | ||
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z272.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z280.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z284.jpg) | ||
Towards Governor | Same | Towards Kennedy | ||
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z288.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z294.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z297.jpg) | ||
Towards Kennedy | Towards Governor | Same |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z223.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z230.jpg) |
Greer said that he turned around immediately after the second shot. He does not turn until z278-280.
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z232.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z242.jpg) | |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z247.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z250-z299/z253.jpg) |
Well, he would have heard it less than 2 frames after the bullet struck JFK. The evidence is pretty consistent that it was the first shot that struck JFK. The first shot definitely occurred before z223. The last two were closer together and in rapid successsion. I can't tell by just looking at the zfilm when the shots occurred. The evidence indicates that JFK in z223 is reacting to being hitby the first shot that occurred before z202.
Where Nellie is looking ...I would interpret Nellie's head movement from swinging her head around from gazing at the 2 mystery men at Z220 over to staring at the Governor and by Z259 assessing the damage of the President. My original theory was that the umbrella man was being used as a distraction to attract Connally and JFK's attention while the mystery man on Jacqueline's side pulled the trigger. He is visible on your shown frame at Z236. A partially rolled up window offers protection for Nellie who is keeping to the front of her seat. The plank seat on which JFK and Jacqueline were on was in an elevated position at the time to allow a shot to come in from the LHS. You can see the clapping motion of the mystery man turns into a rapid behind the back move. Those 2 are not standing side by side but one behind the other. It certainly looks like a black object is in the front man's hand as it goes behind his back. The plank seat was then lowered causing JFK to be moved lower, inferring that no bullets could have come from the side with the partially raised side window.Seems more focused on the Governor. And her two brief looks backward could have been towards the Secret Service agents, as if trying to get them to do something.
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z236.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z244.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z247.jpg) Towards Governor Same Same(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z254.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z258.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z262.jpg) Towards Governor Towards Kennedy Same(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z272.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z280.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z284.jpg) Towards Governor Same Towards Kennedy(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z288.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z294.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z297.jpg) Towards Kennedy Towards Governor Same
The SBT scenario would have her looking at Kennedy just after the first shot (she's already turned her head enough, beginning in the Z270s, to see Kennedy in the Willis05 photo, with both eyes turned rightward). She said (at least once) that she was still looking at Kennedy when she heard the second shot. Arguably she's still turned enough to see Kennedy in the Z220s.
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z223.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z230.jpg)
If the bullet struck both men at Z223 then a split second before Connally heard the shot Zapruder's camera would have snapped Z225 and imo Z225 would be too early to see any movement in Connally from the rifle sound.Quite right. If JFK was hit by a bullet at z223, JBC's reaction at z225 could not be to the sound of it.
The following Gif is Z frames from Z222-225 centered on Connally and I'm seeing Connally's torso dramatically twisting and Connally jacket reacting and all this is before Connally has time to react to hearing a shot at Z223. And also consider Kellerman who is just sitting there motionless as compared to Connally.Again, you are assuming JFK was hit at z223. There is too much evidence that conflicts with that scenario.
We know Zapruder heard the headshot and if we take a look at the frames following the headshot we see a sharp vertical reaction at the time Zapruder would have heard and then react to a rifle sound.Jiggle analysis is interesting but it has never been shown to be accurate in identifying shots. There are many more than 3 places where there are panning errors and jiggles.
Then we can go back and see if we can find any other sharp vertical movements and in the same timeframe after both men appear to be shot, Zapruder does a similar reaction that can be observed at the headshot.
I personally do not believe CE 399 was "planted".
The damage to the windshield and the windshield chrome strip of the limo came from bullet lead, likely from the bullet that shattered JFK's head at Z312/Z313.
You can not make that deduction in regards to CE 399 going through JFK. The bullet that penetrated JFK in his upper back was not tracked by dissection of the neck organs. That's a fact. The evidence from physical examination of JFK by the prosectors, and witnessed by two FBI agents, pointed to a shallow wound of entrance. The use of a metal probe failed to penetrate beyond the shallow wound despite JFK's lungs being removed. The bullet that struck JFK in his upper back could well have been "defective" and had less powder to propel the bullet at full velocity or it hit something in line with the trajectory to sufficiently slow it down.
JFK was given cardiac massage and it was possible that the bullet had dislodged without anyone noticing it as he never was turned over at Parklands.
Dr. CARRICO. As we said initially this was an acute emergency situation and there was not time initially and when the cardiac massage was done this prevented any further examination during this time this was being done. After the President was pronounced dead his wife was there, he was the President, and we felt certainly that complete examination would be carried out and no one had the heart, I believe, to examine him then.
Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.
Did anyone go through the bloodied sheets to search for a spent bullet? Anyone check the casket?
No metal was found on the front of JFK's clothing, yet copper was found on the back of the jacket and shirt.
Then, we have Kellerman - you know where l am about to go with this?
You don't need the SBT at all - three shots, three hits. One non-penetrating.
So how did the lead fragments end up in JC's wrist and thigh?
The SBT is certainly no fact and that's why the WC left it at that.
The identity of the gunman who actually did the firing and from where is still unknown.
When the bullet struck JFK's head and shattered can you account for every bullet fragment and where they went?
Max Holland believes somewhere in dealey plaza there is a lost FMJ bullet. Why did it have to be "lost" in Dealey Plaza?
As you know, people react differently to being struck by a bullet.
What Arlen did in asking the Drs such leading and loaded questions was amateurish at best.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hypothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately 100 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?
From the above what do you think was actually proved?
You can not make that deduction in regards to CE 399 going through JFK. The bullet that penetrated JFK in his upper back was not tracked by dissection of the neck organs. That's a fact. The evidence from physical examination of JFK by the prosectors, and witnessed by two FBI agents, pointed to a shallow wound of entrance. The use of a metal probe failed to penetrate beyond the shallow wound despite JFK's lungs being removed. The bullet that struck JFK in his upper back could well have been "defective" and had less powder to propel the bullet at full velocity or it hit something in line with the trajectory to sufficiently slow it down.
JFK was given cardiac massage and it was possible that the bullet had dislodged without anyone noticing it as he never was turned over at Parklands.
I do believe we are making some progress here.CE399 was a bullet that wounded JBC. But that does not necessarily mean it caused all his wounds. It is possible, if not probable, his wounds were caused by separate bullets.
Since you don't believe 399 was planted, then how do you suppose it was found at Parkland ?
It certainly didn't fall off of JFK's gurney as that gurney was still in the trauma room that JFK was cooling off on.
Therefore, we know by the process of elimination that 399 must have been the bullet that wounded JBC. How else could it have gotten there ?
Now, let's deal with JFK's back/throat wound.Logic alone does not solve facts. Evidence helps.
Since we know that no bullet was found in JFK's neck, we know that the throat wound had to be an exit wound.
We know this by the process of elimination. Since there is no exit wound for a bullet entering JFK's throat, and no bullet found in his neck, the inescapable conclusion is that the bullet which struck him in the back had to have exited through his throat, causing that wound.
This isn't speculation, it's fact.
So now we have established that a bullet entered JFK's back, passed through him, and exited his throat.
Next, we must ask what happened to the bullet that passed throught JFK.
Since there is no bullet found in the limo, we must conclude that the bullet that passed through JFK, went on to wound JBC, and was the one recovered at Parkland, CE399.
How else could it have happened ?
As I've said before, the application of a little common sense and logical deductive reasoning is all that's necessary to arrive at the SINGLE BULLET FACT.
The evidence is very consistent that JFK was struck in the back/neck on the first shot and JBC was struck in the back on the second.
Nonsense. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and second shot ? How many shots do you have being fired ?No good assuming something which you can't prove.
But for the sake of argument let's assume this preposterous suggestion that JFK is hit by the first shot and then JBC is hit by the second shot several seconds later (even though the Zap film clearly shows that both men are wounded simultaneously or in extremely close proxmity), is correct.
What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?
No good assuming something which you can't prove.
Prove that the bullet hit JFK in the back and exited his throat.
CE399 was a bullet that wounded JBC. But that does not necessarily mean it caused all his wounds. It is possible, if not probable, his wounds were caused by separate bullets.
Logic alone does not solve facts. Evidence helps.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/35c3ixi.jpg) Mason's SketchUp treatment of first-shot trajectory through JFK neck and into JBC thigh; and my overlay of positions |
The evidence is very consistent that JFK was struck in the back/neck on the first shot and JBC was struck in the back on the second. JBC never realized that he was struck in the thigh or the wrist until the next day. It is not uncommon for people to be hit by bullets and not realize it.
The trajectory through JFK's neck goes to JBC's left. There was only one wound on JBC's left side. The wound characteristics of the thigh wound are consistent with the condition of CE399 if it struck butt-first. For some unknown reason, no one has ever even considered that possibility, let alone rejected it.
Who said it had exited? No one proved that the upper back wound was connected to the wound in the throat.
Nonsense. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and second shot ? How many shots do you have being fired ?It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what people who were there recalled. They recalled that the last two were in rapid succession. They recalled a pattern to to shots: the time between 2 and 3 was noticeably shorter than between 1 and 2. That necessarily means that there was only one shot before z250 , which is well after JFK began showing reaction to his throat wound.
Why is it preposterous? How do you explain the evidence from many independent sources that JFK reacted to the first shot? Why did no one see JFK smile and wave for 3 seconds after the first shot?
But for the sake of argument let's assume this preposterous suggestion that JFK is hit by the first shot and then JBC is hit by the second shot several seconds later (even though the Zap film clearly shows that both men are wounded simultaneously or in extremely close proxmity), is correct.
What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?You tell me. All I can say is that it was travelling on a downward and right to left trajectory through JFK's neck exiting to the left of his tie knot, likely traveling straight but tumbling at about 1000 to 1500 feet per second. It would have travelled another 5 inches farther left before crossing the plane of JBC's seatback. This was well to the left of JBC'right armpit. Since it does not appear to have struck the car and it did not strike JFK's hands, it must have hit JBC. The question is where?. All I can say is that it was not his right armpit.
Already did that, Ray. Read my posts above.
It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what people who were there recalled. They recalled that the last two were in rapid succession. They recalled a pattern to to shots: the time between 2 and 3 was noticeably shorter than between 1 and 2. That necessarily means that there was only one shot before z250 , which is well after JFK began showing reaction to his throat wound. Why is it preposterous? How do you explain the evidence from many independent sources that JFK reacted to the first shot? Why did no one see JFK smile and wave for 3 seconds after the first shot?You tell me. All I can say is that it was travelling on a downward and right to left trajectory through JFK's neck exiting to the left of his tie knot, likely traveling straight but tumbling at about 1000 to 1500 feet per second. It would have travelled another 5 inches farther left before crossing the plane of JBC's seatback. This was well to the left of JBC'right armpit. Since it does not appear to have struck the car and it did not strike JFK's hands, it must have hit JBC. The question is where?. All I can say is that it was not his right armpit.
You wrote "This isn't speculation, it's fact."
It isn't fact. It is speculation. Absence of the bullet doesn't mean a bullet wasn't found. You cannot prove that a bullet wasn't retrieved.
Thumb1:
Caprio apparently doesn't understand what a pain the butt it is to scroll past his page long diatribes.
Not surprising. He still doesn't understand why page after page of links to his series were removed in order to make the forum more readable.
But what can you expect from a guy that can't determine what year a death occurred in even after being shown a gravestone, death certificate and newspaper article proving beyond any doubt precisely when the death occurred.
:D
Caprio also thinks that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswald's pubic hairs are fake.
JohnM
So your version of the assassination has a bullet being recovered from JFK's throat ?
:D
It has been shown that the SBT is impossible in many different ways, therefore, how can the LNers support the WC's claim that LHO committed the crime?
From what I have observed over many years they can't. That means they support a false claim. Why?
Quote me saying either statement. Failure to do so will again demonstrate that you are a dishonest person.
Didn't you just say that JFK was hit by the first shot and JBC the second ?JBC was hit by the second shot in the back/armpit but the evidence is that a fragment from this bullet struck the windshield, windshield frame and sunvisor and another struck Tague, so it did not cause the left thigh wound which had the characteristics of being struck by the butt end of an intact bullet. So, that means he was also struck by another bullet. The evidence is very consistent that JFK was hit on the first shot. That bullet went to the left of JBC's midline and did not strike the car inside. What does that tell you?
When (what Z frame) do you have the first shot hitting JFK and what frame do you claim JBC is hit by the second ?
According to Hickey and, perhaps, Kinney, JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time of the second shot. You will notice JBC start sailing forward immediately after z272. JFK's hair flies up from z273-276.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h8KVxdCLtyE/Vgq0BdGJ6KI/AAAAAAAAll8/2WndpMI19_8/s1600/Altgens%2Bcrop.jpg) | (http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg) |
The sun visor above Greer's head, that was hit by a bullet fragment, moves up between z271-272. All of that is pretty consistent and points to a shot at z271-72.
It has been shown that the SBT is impossible in many different ways, therefore, how can the LNers support the WC's claim that LHO committed the crime?The SBT is only needed if JBC is reacting to his chest wound at z230 or so. The evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the last two shots were in rapid succession, which means that there was only one shot before z250. There is no reason Oswald could not have fired all 3 shots.
From what I have observed over many years they can't. That means they support a false claim. Why?
JBC was hit by the second shot in the back/armpit but the evidence is that a fragment from this bullet struck the windshield, windshield frame and sunvisor and another struck Tague, so it did not cause the left thigh wound which had the characteristics of being struck by the butt end of an intact bullet. So, that means he was also struck by another bullet. The evidence is very consistent that JFK was hit on the first shot. That bullet went to the left of JBC's midline and did not strike the car inside. What does that tell you?
To determine when the second shot occurred study the evidence. It was, according to Greer, just before he turned around and saw JBC falling back. According to Altgens it was after he took his z256 photo. According to Nellie it was after she stopped looking back at JFK. According to about 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between shots 1 and 3. According to Hickey it occurred when JFK's hair on the right side flew up. You should be able to figure it out from that.
You are saying he must be right on that point.I figure that the guy who best knows what Gov. Connally was doing when he was shot is Gov. Connally, his other experiences notwithstanding. That being said, how can you say, "we can't rely on what Connally tells us" then turn around and tell us that we should instead pay heed to what Tom Shires said that Connally said? If Connally isn't reliable, then Connally-via-Shires would be even less so!
In order to determine if he was right one has to look at all the evidence. Nellie said he was turned. He told Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right. Nellie said that she turned to look at JFK after the first shot and never looked back after the second shot. She is turned looking back at JFK until z268. Greer said that he turned around immediately after the second shot. He does not turn until z278-280. Over 40 witnesses gave evidence that the second and third shots were in rapid succession, closer together than 1 and 2, which puts the second shot well after z235, which is the last time JBC faced forward. So there is an awful lot of evidence that his recollection in April 1964 that he was facing forward when hit by the second shot was not correct.
It may be that he thought he was facing forward because he had turned as far to his right and saw that JFK had moved left and just decided to turn to his left when he was hit. So rather than an actual recollection of where he was facing, he was reconstructing it in his mind and thought he had turned because that is what he was trying to do. Once he was hit he was in shock and had other things on his mind.
You heard it folks. To Gee the actual evidence is a "pain in the butt." I guess so when it shows that all the claims by the WC are false.
Why do you support false claims Gee?
Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt
When it comes to his theory, Mason casts off all logic and evidence. Basically, he contents that the first shot occurred about Z197-Z200 (it varies). This bullet transited the President's neck and then emerged from the throat to bypass the left side of Connally's torso and embed itself into Connally's thigh. This should answer Howard Gee's question to Mason: "What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?"What gets me is that Andrew still places Connally position and posture based on a photo taken while the limousine was on Main. He's not sitting like that in the Zapruder film.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/35c3ixi.jpg) Mason's SketchUp treatment of first-shot
trajectory through JFK neck and into JBC
thigh; and my overlay of positions
Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.
Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.
JohnM
I figure that the guy who best knows what Gov. Connally was doing when he was shot is Gov. Connally, his other experiences notwithstanding. That being said, how can you say, "we can't rely on what Connally tells us" then turn around and tell us that we should instead pay heed to what Tom Shires said that Connally said? If Connally isn't reliable, then Connally-via-Shires would be even less so!I am not saying that Connally's recollection to Shires is more reliable by itself. I am just pointing out that he said something different a day after the shooting than he said 6 months later. If a witness says two different things, their evidence on that point cannot be relied on. One of their answers may be correct or none may be correct. You have to see what fits the rest of the evidence. There is remarkable consistency to the evidence that the second shot was closer to the third than to the first and, therefore, was after z250. That conclusion is based not only on the 1.....2..3 shot pattern witnesses, but also on the independent recollections of Greer, Hickey, Nellie, Altgens, Tague, over 20 witnesses who put the first shot after z190 and a similar number of witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot. JBC never turns forward after z250. So IF he was hit by the second shot, as everyone seems to agree including the Connallys, he was turned to the right when he was hit.
So let's run down what the various players said between the assassination and the Warren Commision hearings. I'm using semicolons to separate different events in sequence, according to each instance of testimony:He said he first turned to the left, but that is obviously a mistake. He never turned to the left in an attempt to look to the rear.
John Connally/Agronsky: Heard a shot; turned to his left; as he turned, he was hit; said "My God, they're going to kill us all"; Kennedy hit again
John Connally/WC: Heard a shot; turned to his right; was turning back to the left; was hit in the left turn while facing forwards; said "Oh, no, no, no", then "My God, they're going to kill us all"; "doubled up" and turned to his right; was pulled into his wife's lap; Kennedy hit againYou seem to be the only one who thinks he initially turned to the left to see JFK. That makes no sense at all. His whole point was that he turned around to see how JFK was because he feared an assassination was occurring. He could see that JFK had moved to the left so he decided to turn the other way (to his left) to see how the President was. JBC never turns left to see JFK.
Nellie Connally/WC: "heard a noise"; turned to her right, saw JFK with his hands up at the same time her husband said "Oh, no, no, no"; "there was a second shot*"; "he recoiled to the right" and "looked away from me" while saying "My God, they're going to kill us all"; she pulled him into her lap; Kennedy hit again
Shires/WC: "She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that."
What Shires recalled is perfectly consistent with what Connally told the Commission.
The "shot-while-turning-left" memory appears during the Agronsky interview, which was only a few days after the assassination. In fact, that interview was conducted while Connally was still in his hospital bed. It short-sheets anything Shires recalled later to the WC. And it remained in the Governor's testimony until he died. That tells me it's a core memory of the event in his mind. He and Nellie also both agreed that he turned right as a reaction to being shot. The shot-while-turning-left recollection and the right-turn-as-reaction memory put a constraint on when he could have been hit. He turns left beginning about frame 195 and doesn't start to noticeably "recoil to the right"until after frame 235.
What gets me is that Andrew still places Connally position and posture based on a photo taken while the limousine was on Main. He's not sitting like that in the Zapruder film.That is pretty much how Connally is positioned at the time of the first shot, which, according to the evidence, was after z186 and before z202:
Still holding off the "Big Reveal".Jerry, you should take some time to read my paper (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Witness_Evidence_JFK_Dallas.pdf) on this.
Howard, Andrew Mason -- an otherwise intelligent person who is a qualified attorney at law -- has a pet theory that goes something like this:It's a LN theory that has Oswald firing all three shots from the SN window. He thinks his shot-spacing witness tabulation democratically prove his theory's shot-placement. It doesn't matter that a similar "majority" thought the limousine "stopped" or most of the Parkland observers alluded to a more rearward position of the gaping head wound.
- First shot: ca. Z197-200
Bullet from SN window goes through Kennedy's neck,
emwrges to then go pass left side of Connally's torso
and buries itself in the Governor's left thigh. Governor
later had no recall of being struck there.- Second shot: ca.Z271-272
Bullet from SN window strikes Connally in armpit,
traverses right torso, emerges from chest,
strikes wrist breaking radius. Metal fragments go off
wrist to maybe damage windshield and cause Tague hit.- Third shot: Z312/313
Head shot to Kennedy.
Jerry, you should take some time to read my paper (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Witness_Evidence_JFK_Dallas.pdf) on this.
That is pretty much how Connally is positioned at the time of the first shot, which, according to the evidence, was after z186 and before z202:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z193.BMP)
Jack Ready, riding on the right front running board of the QM, said he turned immediately to the rear. In order to do that he has to release his right hand from the right hand-hold. He does that at z199. I put the first shot at z195, at which time Oswald had a clear view of the President as he emerges from under the oak tree branches (through which he could be easily tracked).
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_betzner_3_crop.jpg) Betzner (Z186) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg) Willis 05 (Z202) |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z165.jpg) | ] | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z169.jpg) |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z200.jpg) Z200 (clearer than Z199) | ] | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z207.jpg) |
Anyone else in the back seat of the Limo, directly behind Kellerman, that spoke in a Boston accent?
A through and through bullet strike coming out of the throat (an essential requirement for the SBT) and you can clearly speak?
Seven wounds?
Kellerman
(http://i65.tinypic.com/4lg845.jpg)
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were?there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has has got his hands up here like this.
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice?there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years.
Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you.
Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker.
Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then.
Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/rbfiqe.jpg)
Anyone else in the back seat of the Limo, directly behind Kellerman, that spoke in a Boston accent?
A through and through bullet strike coming out of the throat (an essential requirement for the SBT) and you can clearly speak?
Connally's thigh was deep within the Limo, how did a bullet reach his thigh, was this assassin part of your blimp team?
JohnM
[...you could have omitted this...]Nellie Connally, John Connally, and Mrs Kennedy all testified that JFK didn't say a word. Nor did Greer report hearing from JFK, IIRC.
Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.
But SSA Kellerman did. Otherwise why say it at all?
Typical Kook logic, everyone who was close is ignored but one person says what you want to hear and you latch on like a dog on a bone.
JohnM
Mrs Kennedy was looking in the opposite direction to where JFK was sitting and had a motorcycle close to her (left hand side). It is likely she didn't hear her husband because of the noise around her at the time.
Why don't you believe Connolly when he said he was hit by the second bullet, then? He was closest to it. (or is that just Nutter logic?)
Connally was hit by the second bullet.
JohnM
You got your pants pulled down by SSA Kellerman - you know it, we know it.
Kellerman was a trained SSA agent who was well aware of what JFK sounded like.
He was there in the LIMO - not you.
I didn't make the comment- a highly trained SSA did, who was sitting several feet in front of JFK.
He worked for the US GOVERNMENT.
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice?there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.
His job was to focus on the road ahead and drive the vehicle not to listen to conversations.
SSA Kellerman heard his Boss speak.
Are you calling him a liar?
His job was to focus on the road ahead and drive the vehicle not to listen to conversations.
Mrs Kennedy wasn't always sitting right next to her husband - her initial focus was.......
Your trying to discredit SSA Kellerman by providing your opinions. Just because no else recalled JFK speaking didn't mean he didn't as their attention could have been diverted elsewhere for the 1 second statement.
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
Compare Z frame 161 and then 222 - you can see that Mrs Kennedy goes from looking to her left to now focusing her attention on her husband.
That's about 3 seconds in gap - no wounds, one wound or 7 wounds?
Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying across that trunk.
Are you trying to imply that SSA Kellerman got EVERY point correct except for hearing his Boss?
SSA Kellerman made the statement, so was he a liar?
I see Mytton, EVERYONE was focused on JFK EXCEPT the man (SSA Kellerman) assigned for his protection. ;D
There is nothing in your opinions that even remotely challenges what Kellerman wrote in his report and told the WC.
Your SBT is sunk :(
More Kook logic, the SBF is sunk based on the uncorroborated testimony of one man, it's no wonder you people have no answers.
JohnM
Do you believe Givens' cigarette story that placed Oswald on the 6th floor?
No, Givens was a reefer addict.
Btw please don't derail this thread.
JohnM
Thanks for confirming that Givens lied.
This is from the Warren Report
"Roy Kellerman, in the right front seat of the limousine, heard a report like a firecracker pop. Turning to his right in the direction of the noise, Kellerman heard the President say "My God, I am hit," and saw both of the President's hands move up toward his neck. As he told the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," Kellerman grabbed his microphone and radioed ahead to the lead car, "We are hit. Get us to the hospital immediately."
Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 1160-1163). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.
Unlike what was done to Jack Dougherty, no one from the WC challenged what SSA Kellerman stated.
No kook or troll sunk your SBT - an official agent of the US Government did.
If CE 399 went through JFK's throat how was he able to speak any words?
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Following the official line, Rob.
Good, so you believe that Ruby actually killed Ruby and the pubic hairs in evidence belong to Oswald, just like a WC supporter, nice!
JohnM
The SBT is only needed if JBC is reacting to his chest wound at z230 or so. The evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the last two shots were in rapid succession, which means that there was only one shot before z250. There is no reason Oswald could not have fired all 3 shots.
So you are a liar. Got it.
Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt
Nice try, but my "page long diatribes" are loaded with EVIDENCE. I did not twist anything. That is what LNers do.
Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.
Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.
JohnM
Connally was hit by the second bullet.
JohnM
;D of course he was Jack.
You don't think SSA Kellerman, who was assigned for the protection of the President, would fail to recognize his Commander in Chief's own voice?
At a time of great confusion within the Limo, crowd noise, gunfire, do you think everyone in the Limo was just looking and hearing out for JFK?
JBC and his wife disagree with you.
***************************************
One of the most important witnesses to the assassination was the Governor of Texas -- John B. Connally (JBC). He was actually inside the limousine with President John F. Kennedy (JFK) and was also shot, so he would have been in the best position to determine what happened. Unfortunately for the Warren Commission (WC), and its defenders, he NEVER supported the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) claim. He said he was shot by a DIFFERENT bullet than the one that hit JFK first.
Let's take a look at some of his WC testimony.
*******************************************
Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
So we see the Governor said he looked to his right and then started to look to the left when he FINALLY got hit in the back by a bullet. There is NO way he could have done all of this IF he had been hit immediately by the bullet that first hit JFK. Proof of this is the FACT he is seen holding his Stetson hat in his right hand while JFK is already visibly reacting to a shot. JBC never lets go of the hat and this would be impossible IF he was eventually hit in the wrist as the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) claims.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?
Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.
According to the WC, and its defenders, ONLY ONE person was involved and he was using an OLD rifle with a bolt action that was NOT easy to manipulate. IF they are correct, how did LHO manipulate the bolt so fast as to confuse NUMEROUS people into thinking shots came "right on top of each other?"
GOVERNOR CONNALLY. ...So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.
Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.
I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----
Again, we see based on the rapidity of the shots JBC was convinced more than one shooter was involved, thus, he said "THEY are going to kill us all." Some researchers have said this was a "Freudian slip" as JBC knew of the conspiracy ahead of time, and thus, said THEY as he knew the details. I'm NOT making any such claim. MY point is BASED ON WHAT HE HEARD he felt more than one shooter was involved OR the one shooter had an automatic rifle. Since we know the WC claimed LHO did NOT use an automatic rifle this option is eliminated and we are left with the one involving more than ONE shooter based on what G
JBC heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that you made there?
Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?
Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?
Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.
Here we see him say the time between the first and third shots was just a matter of "seconds." He then says, it seems to please the WC to me, "I don't know, 10, 12 seconds." How many of you would think of 10 or 12 seconds when he said "seconds?" NOT me. He then goes on to say "it was extremely rapid...", so much so, he again thought "that whoever was firing MUST BE firing with an automatic rifle because of the RAPIDITY of the shots...". How would 10 or 12 seconds make anyone think an automatic rifle was being used? Do they take 10 or 12 seconds between shots? IF so, why are they called AUTOMATIC rifles then?
We must discount this obviously inaccurate statement to please the WC and look at the majority of what he is saying here. He is saying the shots (first and third) came so rapidly that he thought more than one shooter was involved or the shooter was using an AUTOMATIC rifle! How does this jive with what the WC told us happened? IT DOESN'T.
Remember the memo I did in this series showing as of January 1964 the WC was still debating whether or not JFK was the target at all? Look at this question from Congressman Boggs.
Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.
On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the
No, I'm just trying to keep up with your ever changing conspiracy which you never seem to be able to define. One day you're Arthur and the next day you're Martha.
JohnM
Now did SSA Kellerman hear his Commander in Chief speak in his Boston accent - yes or no?
You falsely attributed things to me knowing that I never said them. That is the definition of lying. You're a liar, but don't be upset as this was already known
Explain Kellerman changing his 11/23 statement. He claims to clearly hear JFK say this yet completely changes his story to accomodate a different statement
Can I ask you a question? Have you ever worked in a chicken shop? Serious question ;D
Your mode of belittling, assumptions, adding statements that no one has made, setting up false arguments, using kook, posting style is extremely reminiscent of a poster I used to argue with and rarely posts here anymore using his real name.
Unless you were personally in the Presidential limo, was at Parklands in trauma room one or was at Bethesda during the autopsy - can I give you some friendly advice?
STFU.
Do you really expect people to have a civil debate with you?
No, your posts are loaded with biased opinion.
JohnM
My involvement in this thread with you is over then.
Your aim now is to divert and derail.
We are both wasting our time here.
I said that Connally was hit by the second bullet then you reply that the Connally's would disagree with me then you post a wall of words supporting that Connally was hit by the second bullet, are you drunk?
JohnM
You asked whether Kellerman heard JFK say in his Boston accent that he was hit, yes or no.
I answered NO.
And you're throwing a sh1t fit over that ?
LMAO
Don't ask questions if you don't want answers !
Stop squirming, in your never ending series which was rightly wiped off this Forum, you posted that you believed that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswalds pubic hair was fake and now because your threads and the proof are gone, you are tryng to deny it. Pathetic.
JohnM
Unless you were personally in the Presidential limo, was at Parklands in trauma room one or was at Bethesda during the autopsy - can I give you some friendly advice?
STFU.
Hey Howard, do you know Kellerman didn't hear anything in his Boss said, or, as I suspect, do you just think he didn't?
No I didn't. All dishonest people are in favor of censorship. It makes their work easier.
You can't quote me. You lied. End of story.
the FIRST bullet hit JFK. The SECOND bullet hit him. The THIRD bullet hit JFK.
Ray, read my post that set Fratini off. I explained why I think Kellerman didn't hear JFK say anything.
No I didn't.
I'm going with 3 shots, and 3 shots only.
First shot miss.
Second shot wounds JFK and JBC.
Third shot makes LBJ Prez.
Which post was that, Howard? You make so many daft ones.
Post 242, Ray. I'll ignore the 'daft' typo, because I'm sure you meant to say 'deft'.
So Connolly was lying?
No, Connally wasn't lying. He mistakenly thought the first shot hit JFK. Connally was correct that the second shot hit him (and JFK).
Oh God no - your no JFK assassination researcher heavy weight unlike David Von Pein. I enjoyed debating with him and he admitted working in a chicken shop. :D
Had some terrific debates re CE 142. He is still trying to work out how Lee got it from the SW side to the SE corner while BRW was there.
I have a ton of material that I have generated myself over many years - but I am not wasting my time on a troll like yourself.
Wow Howard. Did he actually tell you this or is just another of your assumptions?
I'm sure DVP wiped the floors with you.
Now if you're done wasting your time with me, go back to your bag thread and quit derailing this one.
No one gives a crap that DVP worked in a chicken shop and it certainly has`no bearing on whatever you were debating.
You're attempt at demeaning DVP because he worked in a chicken shop is a total fail and backfire.
It only shows your desperation and portrays you as a self aggrandizing elitist putz.
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
JohnM
"Generally accepted" :D
Pity you didn't complete the testimony, John.
.....and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Wow Howard. Did he actually tell you this or is just another of your assumptions?
Yeah Connally goes on to say he was hit with the second bullet, so whats your point?
JohnM
There is nothing wrong with that at all.
I had KFC today and it was awesome. ;D
DVPs web site on JFK is one of the best l have ever seen.
After he heard the shot that hit JFK. So, not the same bullet. So no SBT.
He never says he saw Kennedy shot?
JohnM
Dont pump up your tires Gee, your debating style and aggressiveness is a perfect mirror image of his.
I had to double check to make sure it wasn't him l was debating with. The only thing he wiped was his nose. DVP has access to the same documents as l have. No one has all the answers.
Your constant reliance of mistaken witnesses is simply astounding Gee - how many now?
That's why the WC didn't want to be reliant on any "theory". That included the SBT.
It is interesting that no LNer mentioned SSA Kellerman before l did. Why?
Thought you were done wasting your time on me, Fratini. What happened to that ?
LMAO @ 'no LNer mentioned Kellerman before I did'.
Yeah, if you say so. No one ever heard of Kellerman before you mentioned him !
Since I'm sure DVP wiped the floors with you,
I'll take it as a compliment that you thought you were debating him again.
Different opponent, same result.Probably as DVP never won either, unless you can show otherwise.
You lose.
How could he speak,when his vocal cord was damaged?
Ray, Connally does tell us he was hit by the second shot.JBC many not have been sure that JFK was hit but he did notice that JFK had moved to his left so he could not see how he was by turning to the right. But Nellie and more than 20 others actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it and not by smiling and waving:
He also tells us that he heard the first shot, turned to try to see JFK but couldn't.
Connally only assumed JFK was hit by the first shot.
What's so hard to understand ?
Typical Kook logic, everyone who was close is ignored but one person says what you want to hear and you latch on like a dog on a bone.
You falsely attributed things to me knowing that I never said them. That is the definition of lying. You're a liar, but don't be upset as this was already known.
No, your posts are loaded with biased opinion.
Dont pump up your tires Gee, your debating style and aggressiveness is a perfect mirror image of his.
Dave Powers had the exact same accent as JFK and was riding 10 feet behind JFK.
Can you tell what DVPs chicken shop has to do with the OP and then can you explain why it was mentioned in the first place?
C'mon Rob, let's be real, you're NOT being censored. Cut it out already.
Yep, it could have happened that way.
JohnM
I'm going with 3 shots, and 3 shots only.
First shot miss.
Second shot wounds JFK and JBC.
Third shot makes LBJ Prez.
Stop squirming, in your never ending series which was rightly wiped off this Forum, you posted that you believed that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswalds pubic hair was fake and now because your threads and the proof are gone, you are tryng to deny it. Pathetic.
JohnM
Is that a surprise to anybody at all? "Mytton" does that all the time. He simply cannot be trusted to tell the truth about the evidence or about what other people say. This is a game to him.
Why would SSA Kellerman "imagine" or "fabricate" hearing JFK speak?
Was he in fact a liar? The WC didn't say so, so what is your motivation Gee?
Harmful to the SB THEORY? ???
Harmful to the SB THEORY? ???
Probably the same reason Rob's employment at Publix was ever relevant.
Was Rob employed at Publix? So what if he was!
Anyway, how does someone and something who isn't involved in this debate, DVP and his chicken shop, even get mentioned, it's just another Iacolettiesque attempt at deflection.
Ask Paul May. He used to bring it up on a regular basis.
I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop. But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.
Ask Paul May. He used to bring it up on a regular basis.
I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.
But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.
Why would SSA Kellerman "imagine" or "fabricate" hearing JFK speak?
Was he in fact a liar? The WC didn't say so, so what is your motivation Gee?
Harmful to the SB THEORY? ???
JBC many not have been sure that JFK was hit but he did notice that JFK had moved to his left so he could not see how he was by turning to the right. But Nellie and more than 20 others actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it and not by smiling and waving:
1. T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)
3. David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President?s head") (heard 3 shots)
4. Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
??.I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally?s?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don?t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z153.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z198.jpg) | |
Clear frame near to proposed shot | Clear frame near to proposed shot |
7. John Chism (19 H 472 ?When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.? (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).
8. Faye Chism (19 H 471 ?As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.?) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)
9. James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)
10. Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm (http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm) - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)
11. SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z153.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg) | |
Clear frame near to proposed shot | Clear frame near to proposed shot |
12. Linda Willis (7 H 498. ? Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn?t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)
13. SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.?) (heard 3 shots)
14. SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. ?As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard?). (heard 3 shots)
16. Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)
17. Harold Norman (3 H 191. ?but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,?) (heard 3 shots)
19. Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, ?As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.? (heard 3 or 4 shots).
22. Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought ?the President was ducking from the first shot?)
Jerry, I thought you were kidding about Andrew theorizing that both JFK and Connally were hit by the first shot and that JFK's only reaction was to stop smiling and waving, and that JBC wasn't even aware he was hit. :DJerry editorializes.
YIKES.
Jerry editorializes.
To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.
Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.
Mrs Kennedy wasn't always sitting right next to her husband - her initial focus was to her left hand side on the extreme opposite side of the seat looking away from him.Tony, Could you elaborate on the position of the camera man for the first picture. The shot certainly could not have been shot that early. He has his right arm at rest and then he raised it at about Z190 to wave to the crowd. There is no distress. The distress begins when he moves his left arm up towards his neck. That is the first visible evidence of the neck shot in my opinion. The second photograph shown is a blowup of the Willis photo. There is a question of its validity when you compare it to a comparable Zapruder Frame Z221 for example? Is there not a major discrepancy? Is it a fake photo? Is Willis the very tall photographer standing in front of the running girl at Z162 who took this first photo or the second?
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2dgpe6s.jpg)
She also had two Police motorcycles close to her ears on her left hand side.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
These photos are very close to when the first shot was fired - a shot heard by SSA Kellerman.
Mrs Kennedy was sufficiently distracted that she understandably failed to hear her husband utter the words.
She also didn't remember climbing over the back of the Limo - again completely understandable.
You know of anyone else in Dealey Plaza who spoke with a Boston accent in ear shot to SSA Kellerman?
JohnM,
three questions: ....
The first shot was before the limo had passed the sign.
An entrance wound to JFK's upper back circa Z202, or even just before, changes the shooting dynamics completely.
On being hit, and then realizing that he was actually hit (a delayed reaction) means we do not know precisely when JFK uttered the phrase that SSA Kellerman heard from the back seat. I believe that Willis was more than capable of determining that what he heard was a rifle shot. The first shot occurred after Croft #18 and after Betzner #3.
A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat. The bullet didn't penetrate the lungs but caused trauma on the RHS tip of his lung. I do not know why the bullet didn't penetrate JFK completely - it may have been undercharged or it hit something first. At Z202, there was a live oak tree in the way for a clear shot if you are going for a shot from the SE corner of the TSBD.
But that's not where the cluster #### happens - it is the SECOND shot. The second shot must of occurred at a minimum 2.25 seconds later (cycling time of CE 139) some 41 frames later (taking into account Zapruder's camera frame rate) - making it circa Z243.
That was WAY past JC's reaction to being hit. It meant you had another shooter firing at least one bullet at the motorcade. All JFK had to be was an inch further down on his RHS = plenty of clearance to have a bullet go past him and hit JC.
The third bullet hits JFK in the head at Z312/313.
No SBT but another shooter. You think Arlen wasnt concerned about that? Hence 1) the first shot missed everything and was "lost" and 2) an SBT was a necessity for the lone gunman hypothesis.
So JFK was reacting to being hit circa Z202 and JC was reacting to being hit by a separate bullet just after emerging from behind the sign.
By the time SSA Kellerman turns around JFK had already been hit and likely JC as well. SSA Kellerman didn't see the head shot.
The WC knew that if the SBT occurred as early as Z202, how did one explain JC's reaction taking so long?
JC said he wasnt hit by the first bullet - he was correct.
You can forget about any shot hitting JFK to his throat from the front. I do not know what caused the small neat round hole. But it wasnt CE 399 going through his neck.
Willis heard THREE shots. Are you going to call into question his ability to do so?
SINGLE BULLET FICTION
I believe that Willis was more than capable of determining that what he heard was a rifle shot. The first shot occurred after Croft #18 and after Betzner #3.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/rcsuh3.jpg) "Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street." | (http://i62.tinypic.com/2kosck.jpg) "When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction ... she turned to the right toward him" |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z170.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z172.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z174.jpg) |
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg) Croft Photo (Z162) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg) Willis 05 Photo (Z202) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg) Approximate size of Kennedy limousine relative to Willis photo, if Croft had taken a photo Z313 |
You're spinning like a top.If you are interested in discussing this in an adult way, you can dispense with the emojis and try arguing based on the evidence.
JFK clutched at his chest and neck before disappearing behind the sign in Zapruder ? :D
I know you're not claiming that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot, you're just claiming he was shot in the thigh and didn't feel it. :D :DIt is not uncommon for soldiers to receive extremity wounds and not realize it for much longer than 4 seconds. A bullet acts so quickly that nerves are destroyed before they can send any signal. If the wound does not interfere with function and causes no pain, why do you think he would feel it? Connally said he never felt the thigh wound and he certainly received it.
If you are interested in discussing this in an adult way, you can dispense with the emojis and try arguing based on the evidence.LOL! That's been discredited for years.
I am not sure whether JFK had started reacting before disappearing behind the sign, although the HSCA photographic panel concluded that he had (1 HSCA 46):
"By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his head. (43) There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the President by this time."
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z206.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg) |
If you watch the Zap film really really closely you can see a crop circle in the grass of Dealey Plaza with a UFO hovering above it.
You can also see Bigfoot hiding in the shrubbery on the Knoll. Looks like Bigfoot is holding a rifle with smoke coming out of it too.
I agree. The Willis photo was altered to cover up the crop circle, UFO and Bigfoot.When people are trying to make fun of the obvious, it is obvious they have no answers to the obvious. If there is no coverup, there is no need to play with the evidence and invent stories like crop circle, UFO and Bigfoot. Which frames or pictures do you want to throw out?
OK Andrew have it your way. Connally didn't feel or react to the bullet that entered his thigh for 4 seconds. And JFK shows a reaction to a bullet passing through his body before passing the sign.Neither. You should carefully look at ALL the evidence and reach a conclusion that best fits all of the evidence. Where there is a conflict between pieces of evidence, look at the rest of the evidence to resolve the conflict.
Should I believe you or my own eyes ?
At Z225, you can clearly see the JFK and JC looking directly at the umbrella man standing at the front of the sign very close to them and the Cuban beside him waving his arm in the air - promptly JFK raises his arms to his neck! The Willis photograph does not capture this event - the Cuban is even missing. If the Willis photo was at Z202, the Cuban magically runs down from somewhere to appear on the Zapruder frames - impossible.
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z225.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z232.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using critical thinking and sound logic to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.
This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.
You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using biased wild-ass guesses to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.
There, I fixed it for you.
So bear in mind, was JC left with a "sucking" wound and a collapsed lung? At Z394, he looks back from his position behind driver Greer and assesses the damage to the President! The best evidence of this look can be sign clearly in the Lightbox frames at Z394. Unfortunately these photos are not possible to put into this post for viewing. You can see his face more clearly than you can in the Costella Frames.
'wild ass guesses'
... like your "IBM" men
They were Brewer's IBM men, not mine.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brewers-ibm-men.jpg)
His IBM men, your "IBM" men.
That qualifies as a wild-ass guess
Huh? Are you saying that Brewer didn't actually know that they were from IBM? Sometimes you make no sense...
You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using biased wild-ass guesses to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.
There, I fixed it for you.
This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.
Are you claiming to be able to see through the sign?
I would need to put IBM in quotations-- as you do, every time you mention them--to imply that he was lying or involved in something sinister.
Like you do.
LNers don't ignore available images, including those modified or cropped by conspiracy buffs such as yourself.Those are pretty big statements you are making when you are ignoring my prior posts. Look at my post #335. Does it not come from an original posted on this site? Do you as an LNer have any answer for why Zapruder Frames don't match the Willis original photograph? You seem to think it is all about motorcycles and antennaes - a good LNer that keeps the blinders on a horse questioning nothing!
You've cheated by cropping the motorcycle on the left.
Follow this link for further evidence of DPD motorcycles outfitted with antennae mounted exactly as seen in Dealey Plaza:
http://goo.gl/images/m37mPD
No, Kellerman didn't have time to turn around.
The first gif is Z198-Z219, just so you can get a good look at Kellerman.
Answer that question as to why the Willis' photo doesn't match the 20 frames or so where the umbrella is clearly at the front of the sign and not behind?
Didn't Greer supposedly turn his head 150 degrees between 316 and 317?
Didn't Greer supposedly turn his head 150 degrees between 316 and 317?
We're talking about Kellerman, not Greer.
And we have footage of what it takes Kellerman to turn from the initial position to a point that looks behind.
Horse hockey. If Greer can turn his head around in 1/18 of a second, then so could anyone else.
Sure and if Carl Lewis can run a hundred in 10 seconds then so can Al Bundy.
Talk about false equivalencies....
Kellerman is behind the sign for frames Z205-Z218, 13 frames. Now since anyone can do it that must include you,
I guess dishonest "Mytton" forgot the part about "If Greer can turn his head around in 1/18 of a second". How convenient.
When Greer turned he already had his torso facing into the car and didn't have to turn his head and body anywhere near as much as Kellerman who is facing forward and needed to look directly behind.
Whoever said Kellerman needed to look directly behind? Certainly not Kellerman.
This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HssDzDvW/kellerman_in_zap_sign.gif)
Anyway you've gone in circles, your head's spinning and you don't know if you're coming or going, let's get back to my original claim that you questioned, can you "honestly" dispute it?
This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.
In your dreams. You've "shown" nothing of the kind. You did what you always do -- made a claim, attached some kind of graphic that doesn't actually demonstrate that the claim is true, and just declared victory.
LOL! That's been discredited for years.Obviously many LNs disagree with it. But I am not aware of any actual evidence. It seemed to fit with a great deal of evidence that puts the first shot a bit after z186.
4Who said he turned his face to the left? Witnesses said he moved to the left. There is evidence that he turned his face forward. But no one said he turned his face or body to the left.
Kennedy doesn't sharply turn leftward towards Jackie
His head turns to the fore. Compare JFK's hairline in Z206 to Z225. No change. I don't even see where the wave stops.
Jerry,
let's examine that possibility.
Croft #18 is the equivalent of Z161 - no shot had been fired.
Betzner #3 is the equivalent of Z186 - he took his photo just before the FIRST shot was fired.
"I took another picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped."
Willis #5 is the equivalent of Z202
Willis snapped that photo as a result of hearing the FIRST shot.
Hence the FIRST bullet was fired between Z187 - Z201
For the SBT to even be remotely possible, the FIRST shot absolutely had to have missed everyone in the Limousine despite the Presidential Limousine being the closest to the TSBD building at that point in time.
Max Holland went one step further back - he believed the FIRST shot took place even before Zapruder started filming the Limousine coming down Elm Street. That's BEFORE Z133. He further believed that the bullet struck the light pole and a part of it went onto strike Tague.
There is a multitude of problems with that scenario because that's even before Croft #18 at Z161 and there is no indication that anyone is even remotely reacting to anything fired literally above them at pre Z133.
However between Z187 - Z201 is interesting because:
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/rcsuh3.jpg) "Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street." | (http://i62.tinypic.com/2kosck.jpg) "When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction ... she turned to the right toward him" |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z170.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z172.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z174.jpg) |
Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building?
Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there?
Miss. WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"?
Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came.
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z162.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg) | (http://i60.tinypic.com/122gent.jpg) |
In your opinion, when was the FIRST shot fired [Z frame(s)] and did it strike anyone in the Presidential Limousine?
Obviously many LNs disagree with it. But I am not aware of any actual evidence. It seemed to fit with a great deal of evidence that puts the first shot a bit after z186.
Who said he turned his face to the left? Witnesses said he moved to the left. There is evidence that he turned his face forward. But no one said he turned his face or body to the left.
Like those witnesses you cite describing slumping on the "first shot" and it turns out they're describing the shot before the head shot.Like I said, you editorialize. When you say "it turns out" you mean "they really observed what I say they observed, not what they thought they observed"
Kennedy supposedly looking in the direction of Jackie is part of the "severe external stimulus" you cited.Again, you are editorializing. Nowhere does it say or suggest in that passage that JFK turned toward Jackie, or turned his face toward, or was looking in the direction of Jackie. He moved his head and body to the left from the far right side of the car. Left happened to be in the direction of Jackie. Powers observed it from directly behind.
"At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly
freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and
his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife.
Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President
goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction
to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign
at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his
hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot." (VI HSCA 46)
That means no one in the Limousine reacted at all from late Z150s - Z202,
Your definitive evidence for a shot BEFORE Willis took his photo at Z202 equivalent is?
Like I said, you editorialize. When you say "it turns out" you mean "they really observed what I say they observed, not what they thought they observed"
Again, you are editorializing. Nowhere does it say or suggest in that passage that JFK turned toward Jackie, or turned his face toward, or was looking in the direction of Jackie. He moved his head and body to the left from the far right side of the car. Left happened to be in the direction of Jackie. Powers observed it from directly behind.
Here we go again, I provide proof of Rosemary Willis who ran around the pool eager to keep up with Kennedy suddenly stopping and looking back towards the Depository BEFORE Z202, Connally's testimony of him hearing a shot and looking to his right matches Zapruder BEFORE Z202 and the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches occurs about the same time as Connally's quick turn and BEFORE Z202 and then with maximum ignorance you ask for "definitive evidence" like as if what was presented wasn't enough. And in return all you got is 1 photo that shows nothing from 1 eyewitness who wanted to give his photo some significance and along with all his and his families documentary appearances he was doing alright.(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0418/26/original-set-jfk-assassination-slides_1_c4a9e98c2d7749fccd6b07366eec6f10.jpg)
JohnM
The significance of that factoid to when the first shot was fired in Dealey Plaza is?
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg) |
Croft Photo (Z161) |
Croft told the Powell Tribune for a story |
published Nov. 26, 1963, that he was |
30 feet from JFK?s limousine when the shots |
rang out at around 12:30 p.m. Central Time." |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z164.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z166.jpg) | |
Connally Facing Forward | Connally Starting to Turn Rightward |
Allan, I'm not an "Oswald Did It" nut, but I'm not convinced that Willis shows the umbrella behind the sign.
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.You are talking through your hat! What did Rosemary Willis testify in 1978, look at Wikipedia and the HCSA report.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm
And as Jerry mentioned Rosemary Willis said she heard the shot, stopped and looked back towards the Depository.
(http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary%20willis-dorman-hinrichs-1.gif)
(http://www.jfkforensics.net/E/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-1.gif)
(http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-3.gif)
Gerda Dunckel
Ms. Willis has explained, several times since the assassination, that she looked back at the Book Depository and stopped running because she was following the sound of the first shot.
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2013/12/redskirt.html
JohnM
Here we go again, I provide proof of Rosemary Willis who ran around the pool eager to keep up with Kennedy suddenly stopping and looking back towards the Depository BEFORE Z202, Connally's testimony of him hearing a shot and looking to his right matches Zapruder BEFORE Z202 and the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches occurs about the same time as Connally's quick turn and BEFORE Z202 and then with maximum ignorance you ask for "definitive evidence" like as if what was presented wasn't enough. And in return all you got is 1 photo that shows nothing from 1 eyewitness who wanted to give his photo some significance and along with all his and his families documentary appearances he was doing alright.There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right, back toward the TSBD. She said that when she heard the shot she looked back and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD. Up to that point she was watching the President's limo. She does not completely stop until z199.
---------frames z202 to z206 at 200 ms/frame --------------------> | (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z202_z206_RWillis.gif) |
Ms. Willis has explained, several times since the assassination, that she looked back at the Book Depository and stopped running because she was following the sound of the first shot.
Rosemary: My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four
I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.
Rosemary: .....Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder......
I can't use Jerry Organ's lightbox frame but it illustrates it even better than Costella's!
There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right, back toward the TSBD. She said that when she heard the shot she looked back and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD. Up to that point she was watching the President's limo. She does not completely stop until z199.
---------frames z202 to z206 at 200 ms/frame --------------------> (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z202_z206_RWillis.gif)
She does not completely stop until z199.
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.Of course, there is a great deal of evidence that the first shot was when the VP car had completed the turn and the VP security car had almost completed it and when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, and after z186 (Betzner) and enough after Croft (z161) for Croft to click the shutter again (the latter exposure being at the time of the first shot. Unfortunately, the camera malfunctioned). There is also evidence (Mary Woodward and her group) that the President and Jackie turned in response to them shouting to them to look in their direction. There is no evidence that conflicts with this timing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)
There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right, back toward the TSBD. She said that when she heard the shot she looked back and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD. Up to that point she was watching the President's limo. She does not completely stop until z199.
---------frames z202 to z206 at 200 ms/frame --------------------> (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z202_z206_RWillis.gif)
(http://www.jfkforensics.net/E/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-1.gif) Gerda Dunckel | (http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-3.gif) |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z200.jpg) | |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z202.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z204.jpg) | |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z205.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z206.jpg) |
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z213.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z216.jpg) |
Why did she stop at all and then what are the chances that as soon as she stops less than half a second later she hears the first shot?I am not sure she needed a reason to stop. She may simply have seen no purpose in continuing to run.
Of course, there is a great deal of evidence that the first shot was when the VP car had completed the turn and the VP security car had almost completed it
and when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, and after z186 (Betzner) and enough after Croft (z161) for Croft to click the shutter again (the latter exposure being at the time of the first shot. Unfortunately, the camera malfunctioned).
I am not sure she needed a reason to stop. She may simply have seen no purpose in continuing to run.
She was obviously running to keep up with the president's car. Maybe she realized she could not keep up. Also, she slows down as soon as she reaches the grass. Maybe that had something to do with it. It seems rather odd that it would take her almost 3 seconds to stop running if a shot at z155 (that everyone thought was after the VP car had completed the turn) was the reason for stopping.
I am not sure she needed a reason to stop.
It seems rather odd that it would take her almost 3 seconds to stop running
Maybe like she said, she heard a shot.
Or she stopped because her dad called out.
Shaw trial testimony:
Q: After having taken this photograph, Mr. Willis, what did you do?
A: My two little daughters were running along down the hill paralleling the Presidential car there and I yelled to one of them, which is the first thing I did, and then I heard at least two more shots and then I started looking for them and looking down and hollering for them to come back to me and they came running back crying.
No. My argument is that the evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the first shot was much later - just after the VP car had completed the turn (VP car occupants) when the VP security car was completing the turn or parallel to the TSBD (VP secuity car occupants), or a bit after z186 (photographers Robert Hughes and Hugh Betzner) or just before z202 (Phil Willis) or about when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (z200 - TE Moore,. Linda Willis). There is no evidence that conflicts with that evidence. So the basis for your conclusion, which conflicts with all that evidence, may not be reliable.
Maybe like she said, she heard a shot.
Seriously, that's your argument? She was running at a fair gallop and was trying to process what she heard and you expect her to stop on a dime, you try it.
Allan, I'm not an "Oswald Did It" nut, but I'm not convinced that Willis shows the umbrella behind the sign.Thanks for the help! Jerry has enlightened me. Thanks!
I am still eagerly waiting to hear why you think Willis isn't showing the umbrella behind the sign. Where do you come up with that?
Why do you think it is behind the sign in Willis?I actually asked you why you think it is in the front! That is rhetorical logic your using - don't BS me. Already I laid out the reasons for my argument. You just want to throw it back again in my face in a circular argument? Break the circle and come out with a meaningful argument.
I actually asked you why you think it is in the front! That is rhetorical logic your using - don't BS me.
If you look at the blowup, that bush halfway up the sign looks like the remnants of the real umbrella position, but the sign looks clean where it should have come across.
I think the bush halfway up the sign is just a bush. In the following gif we see the same bush photographed from further down Elm street so the perspective is a little out but you get the general idea.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5y9SCq65/bush1a.gif)
JohnM
Allen, I believe it a line-of-sight difference between Zapruder and Willis.Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. I am open to logical solutions and I can now see the perspective better that has been put forward. I still think the elevated umbrella in the Zapruder Frames are showing a very close proximity to the car. I think the umbrella should be further over in order to conform to angular alignment. The sign itself must be about 4 feet high. Zapruder's perch is quite a bit west of the sign.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/78mf.jpg)
This is the Charles L. Bronson photo, taken about Z225-227. The Stemmons sign is roughly edgewise to Bronson's camera-view.
Willis's viewpoint had most of the Umbrella Man beneath the bottom of the Stemmons sign. Zapruder's view towards Umbrella Man was more elevated. And so in the Z-film the umbrella was seen higher up along the edge of the sign. As well, the umbrella itself was raised more (maybe a foot higher??) in the Zapruder film and Bronson photo than it was in the Willis photo.
I see no reason to believe the Umbrella Man and Waving Man changed where they stood between Willis05 photo and the Zapruder film. There was some space between them. The Zapruder film shows the Waving Man away from the Stemmons sign because he stood on the street edge of the sidewalk while the Umbrella Man stood on the top of the raised curbstone between the sidewalk and the grassy slope.
Thanks again for sharing the Bronson film frame and that information which is a good rebuttal - not just none sense. I assume that was from his movie camera and that it has been enhanced and blurriness removed.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_BRONSON.jpg) Bronson Photograph | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_20180925-185216.JPG) Bronson Film Frame |
Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. I am open to logical solutions and I can now see the perspective better that has been put forward. I still think the elevated umbrella in the Zapruder Frames are showing a very close proximity to the car. I think the umbrella should be further over in order to conform to angular alignment. The sign itself must be about 4 feet high. Zapruder's perch is quite a bit west of the sign.The Stemmons sign is 15 feet from the people you see on the sidewalk and the grass beneath the sign is a bit higher than the level of the sidewalk. So keep in mind the perspective and positions of the photographers: In Zapruder's film the sightline to the umbrella is downward so it crosses the plane of the sign at a point above the height of the umbrella and then continues down to the umbrella. This makes the bottom of the sign board appear to be below the umbrella. In Willis 5 the sightline is horizontal. The slightly higher sign makes the sign appear a bit higher than the tops of the umbrella located 15 feet in front when looking at it from Willis' position.
I think no matter which way you look at it, given Zapruder's elevated position, the umbrella man should be over about where the black suited man is in the Willis' photograph below the sign in my opinion and then have the umbrella moved over to match his position. To me, that would be the logical placement, matching the bush up above outside the sign!
He is being shown on the outside of the corner post of the sign which lines up with the motorcycle antennae on Willis' photograph The angle doesn't look right. At any rate, unusual for a man to be using a fully extended umbrella on that day and it appears JFK and JC are looking right at him. The SS in the followup car as well. Again for me, I can see this as an attention attraction. I would never buy into the umbrella having some sort of weapon built in. I still suspect the angle of the bullet to the neck came would be more logical in a frontal shot coming from Nellie's side from the person whose hands disappear behind the body after finishing the "clap" - very rapidly. This being when the car was behind the sign in the Zapruder film. I can't find those 2 people one black and one white? on the Bronson frame. They must be right at edge and not captured!
Again it has always been my speculation that it was a well coordinated event and when Jean Hill heard 2 shots, she was correct. A second almost simultaneous noise (shot) from up the knoll will have everyone looking in that direction. That is from her TV interview on the very first night.
You need to study it some more. Leaving aside the technical hurdles of doctoring a film and Willis' photo, you are suggesting a massive conspiracy. A much simpler answer is provided if you actually take the time to measure everything and do a proper sightline analysis. If you are going to compare the Bronson film and photographs you have to make sure the film frame and photos were taken at the same time. The Willis photo is taken at z202. The umbrella has not yet been raised. In Bronson it is 2 feet above his head. In Willis, the umbrella man has the hand holding the umbrella down at his side. In Bronson it is up by his head. The bush appears to be along the base of the concrete wall. If you draw a line from Willis eye-level to the top of umbrella man's head it is just below where the bush is. What is the problem?
I have been studying and looking at these frames (Bronson, Willis and Zapruder) and trying to figure out what does not add up with them. I believe there is a fairly major correction in the Willis photo which was deliberately done. The bush you see above the Stemmons Freeway sign should be in line with the bush alongside the sign (above the umbrella) in that drawing! I call it a drawing because if that has been altered, what else has? This is the only way that Zapruder could capture his view of the top of the limousine without being up 100 feet higher! We only miss seeing Jacqueline's pink bonnet at Z218-Z219. Looking at Zapruder's vantage point in the Willis photo, it is impossible for him to see the top of the car! His line of sight as shown in the picture below does not allow him to see the top of the limousine and Jacqueline's bonnet!
Another issue with the Bronson Film (an optical illusion?) is that we can't see the appearance of the third lane. It seems to me the limousine should be in the middle of the road so that motorcycles could be driving alongside of the followup car!The light line that you see appears to me to be the road surface, not the curb. The curb is hidden by the grass in front of it. If the car was in the south lane, you would not be able to see the bottom of the tires due to the curb.
I think the bush halfway up the sign is just a bush. In the following gif we see the same bush photographed from further down Elm street so the perspective is a little out but you get the general idea.Andrew, what I am looking at is the shrub over top of the Stemmons Freeway sign shown on the Willis 05 photograph. It appears to be similar to the one just above the umbrella alongside the sign. They are the same type of bushes. If it is above the sign, it means it had to be planted high up on the wall or on the other side - it does not look like a tree. As John Mytton's gif pointed out, the bush all looks at the same level when you look at his other photograph he alternated the Willis' one with. If that other picture in his gif is valid, I see no large bush hovering at the top of the sign behind it! Maybe keystoning is a technique that came in to play here as well? Some have suggested that has happened with the 3 photographs of Oswald holding a rifle in his backyard at various positions and the background appears to always be stationary. That was taken with a handheld camera and not one on a tripod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5y9SCq65/bush1a.gif)
JohnM
Andrew, what I am looking at is the shrub over top of the Stemmons Freeway sign shown on the Willis 05 photograph. It appears to be similar to the one just above the umbrella alongside the sign. They are the same type of bushes. If it is above the sign, it means it had to be planted high up on the wall or on the other side - it does not look like a tree. As John Mytton's gif pointed out, the bush all looks at the same level when you look at his other photograph he alternated the Willis' one with. If that other picture in his gif is valid, I see no large bush hovering at the top of the sign behind it!??I see a tree that goes much higher than the extended sight line from Willis over the top of the Stemmons sign. What do you think happened to the top of the tree? Did it suddenly disappear from Willis's photo and replaced by a bush that happens to look much like the tree? Why would anyone do that? This is silly.
If that sign is really that high, how are you going to be able to see the top of the limousine (Jacqueline's head) over the top of it like shown in the Zapruder film? I know it will take more investigation. I would like to know the approximate elevation of Zapruder's camera above the roadway where the limousine was. The limousine was in the center lane. Determine some geometrical dimensions. . Once could determine the top height of that sign with geometry and determine its location wrt what one sees. Some assumptions (throwing some numbers out there) would be??!! Look at frame z172. The south curb of Elm is visible above the left corner of the sign to about the middle of the sign. Do you see Jackie's head above the curb as she approaches the sign? So why would her head not be visible if the curb is visible?
1) 140 feet from Jacqueline to Zapruder,
2) 20 feet? elevation from camera to roadway difference at the time of passing behind the sign
3) 40 feet from Jacqueline to the sign corner.
4) Jacqueline's top of head 4 feet above roadway.
Maybe someone has made this calculation already? I know Jerry Organ's post with positions may hold more answers if there was a calculation made already.
Andrew, what I am looking at is the shrub over top of the Stemmons Freeway sign shown on the Willis 05 photograph.
In my opinion, John Connally was a co-conspirator in the assassination of JFK who did not get hit at all. Connally being hit was all staged to support the LHO explanation.In my opinion, you are not entitled to an opinion that is not based on evidence. What is your evidence that Connally was not hit? More to the point, what is the evidence that Connally, Nellie, all his doctors, all the nurses and attendants to attended to his injuries, the x-ray technicians who fabricated x-ray films and reports, conspired to do this?
I am not entitled to an opinion that is not based on evidence? Says who? You? Who are you to make such a statement as that? I am entitled to any opinion I want to have.That is my opinion.
From your attitude, I thought you were trying to play "Big Brother", telling me what I was allowed to say or not say on this forum. If you were not doing that, I apologize. Of course you are allowed to your opinions but please also allow me my opinions freely without attempting to control them. You can say whatever you want to say but let me say whatever I want to say as long as I am respectful in doing it. I have a completely different explanation for the JFK assassination than you do. I am heretic on this forum but that does not make me a troll, does it? Will you allow a heretic to freely speak his mind here or does everybody have to be on the same page?And, in my opinion, you are not entitled to have a platform for an opinion on facts that is not based on evidence. In my opinion, the moderators would be perfectly within their right to delete your posts expressing such an opinion. The right to freedom of speech is not absolute.