If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?

[Mitch Todd]

You are saying he must be right on that point.

In order to determine if he was right one has to look at all the evidence. Nellie said he was turned. He told Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right. Nellie said that she turned to look at JFK after the first shot and never looked back after the second shot. She is turned looking back at JFK until z268. Greer said that he turned around immediately after the second shot. He does not turn until z278-280. Over 40 witnesses gave evidence that the second and third shots were in rapid succession, closer together than 1 and 2, which puts the second shot well after z235, which is the last time JBC faced forward. So there is an awful lot of evidence that his recollection in April 1964 that he was facing forward when hit by the second shot was not correct.

It may be that he thought he was facing forward because he had turned as far to his right and saw that JFK had moved left and just decided to turn to his left when he was hit. So rather than an actual recollection of where he was facing, he was reconstructing it in his mind and thought he had turned because that is what he was trying to do. Once he was hit he was in shock and had other things on his mind.   

I figure that the guy who best knows what Gov. Connally was doing when he was shot is Gov. Connally, his other experiences notwithstanding. That being said, how can you say, "we can't rely on what Connally tells us" then turn around and tell us that we should instead pay heed to what Tom Shires said that Connally said? If Connally isn't reliable, then Connally-via-Shires would be even less so!

So let's run down what the various players said between the assassination and the Warren Commision hearings. I'm using semicolons to separate different events in sequence, according to each instance of testimony:

John Connally/Agronsky: Heard a shot; turned to his left; as he turned, he was hit; said "My God, they're going to kill us all"; Kennedy hit again

John Connally/WC: Heard a shot; turned to his right; was turning back to the left; was hit in the left turn while facing forwards; said "Oh, no, no, no", then "My God, they're going to kill us all"; "doubled up" and turned to his right; was pulled into his wife's lap; Kennedy hit again

Nellie Connally/WC: "heard a noise"; turned to her right, saw JFK with his hands up at the same time her husband said "Oh, no, no, no"; "there was a second shot*"; "he recoiled to the right" and "looked away from me" while saying "My God, they're going to kill us all"; she pulled him into her lap; Kennedy hit again

Shires/WC: "She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that."

What Shires recalled is perfectly consistent with what Connally told the Commission.
 
The "shot-while-turning-left" memory appears during the Agronsky interview, which was only a few days after the assassination. In fact, that interview was conducted while Connally was still in his hospital bed. It short-sheets anything Shires recalled later  to the WC. And it remained in the Governor's testimony until he died.  That tells me it's a core memory of the event in his mind. He and Nellie also both agreed that he turned right as a reaction to being shot. The shot-while-turning-left recollection and the right-turn-as-reaction memory put a constraint on when he could have been hit. He turns left beginning about frame 195 and doesn't start to noticeably "recoil to the right"until after frame 235.

[Bill Chapman]

You heard it folks. To Gee the actual evidence is a "pain in the butt." I guess so when it shows that all the claims by the WC are false.

Why do you support false claims Gee?

Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt

[John Mytton]

Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt

Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.

Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt

Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.

JohnM

[Mitch Todd]

When it comes to his theory, Mason casts off all logic and evidence. Basically, he contents that the first shot occurred about Z197-Z200 (it varies). This bullet transited the President's neck and then emerged from the throat to bypass the left side of Connally's torso and embed itself into Connally's thigh. This should answer Howard Gee's question to Mason: "What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?"

Mason's SketchUp treatment of first-shot trajectory through JFK neck and into JBC thigh; and my overlay of positions

What gets me is that Andrew still places Connally position and posture based on a photo taken while the limousine was on Main. He's not sitting like that in the Zapruder film.

[Bill Chapman]

Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.

Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.

JohnM

It's not too bad on my desktop macs, but on my iOS devices it's fun time wasting to scroll 'n snip or more likely, do an 'end run' as they say.

[Andrew Mason]

I figure that the guy who best knows what Gov. Connally was doing when he was shot is Gov. Connally, his other experiences notwithstanding. That being said, how can you say, "we can't rely on what Connally tells us" then turn around and tell us that we should instead pay heed to what Tom Shires said that Connally said? If Connally isn't reliable, then Connally-via-Shires would be even less so!

I am not saying that Connally's recollection to Shires is more reliable by itself. I am just pointing out that he said something different a day after the shooting than he said 6 months later.  If a witness says two different things, their evidence on that point cannot be relied on.  One of their answers may be correct or none may be correct. You have to see what fits the rest of the evidence.  There is remarkable consistency to the evidence that the second shot was closer to the third than to the first  and, therefore, was after z250. That conclusion is based not only on the 1.....2..3 shot pattern witnesses, but also on the independent recollections of Greer, Hickey, Nellie, Altgens, Tague, over 20 witnesses who put the first shot after z190 and a similar number of witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot.  JBC never turns forward after z250. So IF he was hit by the second shot, as everyone seems to agree including the Connallys, he was turned to the right when he was hit.

So let's run down what the various players said between the assassination and the Warren Commision hearings. I'm using semicolons to separate different events in sequence, according to each instance of testimony:

John Connally/Agronsky: Heard a shot; turned to his left; as he turned, he was hit; said "My God, they're going to kill us all"; Kennedy hit again

He said he first turned to the left, but that is obviously a mistake. He never turned to the left in an attempt to look to the rear.

John Connally/WC: Heard a shot; turned to his right; was turning back to the left; was hit in the left turn while facing forwards; said "Oh, no, no, no", then "My God, they're going to kill us all"; "doubled up" and turned to his right; was pulled into his wife's lap; Kennedy hit again

Nellie Connally/WC: "heard a noise"; turned to her right, saw JFK with his hands up at the same time her husband said "Oh, no, no, no"; "there was a second shot*"; "he recoiled to the right" and "looked away from me" while saying "My God, they're going to kill us all"; she pulled him into her lap; Kennedy hit again

Shires/WC: "She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that."

What Shires recalled is perfectly consistent with what Connally told the Commission.
 
The "shot-while-turning-left" memory appears during the Agronsky interview, which was only a few days after the assassination. In fact, that interview was conducted while Connally was still in his hospital bed. It short-sheets anything Shires recalled later  to the WC. And it remained in the Governor's testimony until he died.  That tells me it's a core memory of the event in his mind. He and Nellie also both agreed that he turned right as a reaction to being shot. The shot-while-turning-left recollection and the right-turn-as-reaction memory put a constraint on when he could have been hit. He turns left beginning about frame 195 and doesn't start to noticeably "recoil to the right"until after frame 235.

You seem to be the only one who thinks he initially turned to the left to see JFK. That makes no sense at all.  His whole point was that he turned around to see how JFK was because he feared an assassination was occurring.  He could see that JFK had moved to the left so he decided to turn the other way (to his left) to see how the President was. JBC never turns left to see JFK.

[Andrew Mason]

What gets me is that Andrew still places Connally position and posture based on a photo taken while the limousine was on Main. He's not sitting like that in the Zapruder film.

That is pretty much how Connally is positioned at the time of the first shot, which, according to the evidence, was after z186 and before z202:



 Jack Ready, riding on the right front running board of the QM, said he turned immediately to the rear. In order to do that he has to release his right hand from the right hand-hold. He does that at z199. I put the first shot at z195, at which time Oswald had a clear view of the President as he emerges from under the oak tree branches (through which he could be easily tracked).

[Andrew Mason]

Still holding off the "Big Reveal".

Howard, Andrew Mason -- an otherwise intelligent person who is a qualified attorney at law -- has a pet theory that goes something like this:

• First shot: ca. Z197-200
  Bullet from SN window goes through Kennedy's neck,
  emwrges to then go pass left side of Connally's torso
  and buries itself in the Governor's left thigh. Governor
  later had no recall of being struck there.
  
• Second shot: ca.Z271-272
  Bullet from SN window strikes Connally in armpit,
  traverses right torso, emerges from chest,
  strikes wrist breaking radius. Metal fragments go off
  wrist to maybe damage windshield and cause Tague hit.
  
• Third shot: Z312/313
  Head shot to Kennedy.

It's a LN theory that has Oswald firing all three shots from the SN window. He thinks his shot-spacing witness tabulation democratically prove his theory's shot-placement. It doesn't matter that a similar "majority" thought the limousine "stopped" or most of the Parkland observers alluded to a more rearward position of the gaping head wound.

Jerry, you should take some time to read my paper on this.