If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?

[John Mytton]

Probably the same reason Rob's employment at Publix was ever relevant.

Was Rob employed at Publix? So what if he was!

Anyway, how does someone and something who isn't involved in this debate, DVP and his chicken shop, even get mentioned, it's just another Iacolettiesque attempt at deflection.

JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

Was Rob employed at Publix? So what if he was!

Ask Paul May.  He used to bring it up on a regular basis.

Anyway, how does someone and something who isn't involved in this debate, DVP and his chicken shop, even get mentioned, it's just another Iacolettiesque attempt at deflection.

I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.  But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.

[John Mytton]

Ask Paul May.  He used to bring it up on a regular basis.

I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.  But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.

Ask Paul May.  He used to bring it up on a regular basis.

I don't care, why even mention it?

I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.

No, the behaviour was Iacolettiesque? not specifically you but I wouldn't put it past you.

But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.

As if I need any more ammunition, you are the gift that keeps on giving.

JohnM

[Howard Gee]

Why would SSA Kellerman "imagine" or "fabricate" hearing JFK speak?

Was he in fact a liar? The WC didn't say so, so what is your motivation Gee?

Harmful to the SB THEORY? 

Fratini, are you done wasting your time on me or not ? 

Fratini, it's really a shame you can't understand that witnesses make mistakes.

I never said that Kellerman fabricated or intentionally lied that he heard JFK say in a Boston accent that he was hit.

I'm saying Kellerman is confused and wrong.

And I can demonstrate that Kellerman was wrong.

The only time JFK could have said 'My god, I'm hit' is BEFORE the throat shot.

Even you should be able to understand that JFK didn't say anything AFTER the throat shot.

Unfortunately, you don't seem capable of understanding that if JFK said 'I'm hit' before the throat shot that would mean there are TWO bullets unaccounted for if you insist that CE399 didn't pass through JFK and go on to wound JBC.

You can try to account for one of the bullets by postulating it fell out during cardiac massage and was lost in sheets at Parkland or in the casket, but that still wouldn't explain what happened to the bullet that would have remained in JFK's throat.

You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using critical thinking and sound logic to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.

Read my #242 again, a few dozen times, and you might understand the significance of JFK supposedly saying 'My god, I'm hit' and why Kellerman must have been wrong (not 'fabricating') about hearing him say it.

One of these years you might even come to understand why a frontal entry throat shot is an impossibility.

SINGLE BULLET FACT

[Jerry Organ]

JBC many not have been sure that JFK was hit but he did notice that JFK had moved to his left so he could not see how he was by turning to the right.  But Nellie and more than 20 others actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it and not by smiling and waving:

The following witnesses are supposed to have been able to see the President after the first shot (Z150s me; Z195 you) AND could gauge whether he was not smiling or waving after they heard the shot?

1.   T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)

T.E. Moore could not see the President's face and not much of his raised right hand.

3.   David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President?s head") (heard 3 shots)

David Powers can't see the President's face and maybe not his right hand.

4.   Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
        ??.I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
        Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally?s?
        Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don?t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.

Clear frame near to proposed shot		Clear frame near to proposed shot

I don't believe Hargis could see much of the President's face nor his right hand. Seems to have Kennedy ("bent over" due to Z226-228 slump) and Connally both wounded by shot that was prior to head-shot.

7.   John Chism (19 H 472 ?When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.? (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).

8.   Faye Chism (19 H 471 ?As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.?) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)

In their affidavits, the Chisms each describe two shots only. How one can surmise they were not asked how many shots is anybody's guess. Since it is two shots, the "first shot" they're describing is the one before the head-shot, in my scenario it would be the Z223 SBT double-hit.

9.   James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)

Altgens' testimony shows he was really only sure of two shots, but when pressed, he reluctantly placed an hypothetical shot between the two shots he was sure of.

10.   Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)

Like the Chisms, Zapruder could be speaking of the shot that caused the President to slump.

11.   SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)

Clear frame near to proposed shot		Clear frame near to proposed shot

Hill can't see the President's face and little of his right hand.

12.   Linda Willis (7 H 498. ? Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn?t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)

I don't think Linda Willis could see the President "grab his throat"; her view to the President by Z226 was probably blocked.

13.   SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.?) (heard 3 shots)

Hickey can't see the President's face and probably not his right hand.

14.   SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. ?As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard?). (heard 3 shots)

Kinney can't see the President's face and probably not his right hand.

16.   Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)

Ault's full comment (emphasis added) "Following the first shot Mr. AULT noted that President KENNEDY appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the President slumped into his seat" has the President slumping on the second shot. Why he thought Kennedy rose up following the first shot could be because the President raised his right hand to wave in the Z170s.

17.   Harold Norman (3 H 191. ?but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,?) (heard 3 shots)

I'm pretty sure Norman couldn't see if the President failed to smile after the first shot. As to "slumped or something," Kennedy's head nods forward in the Z170s as his right arm raises.

19.   Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, ?As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.? (heard 3 or 4 shots).

I can't see how Moorman's taking a photo of the head-shot relates to her "actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it."

22.   Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought ?the President was ducking from the first shot?)

Allman couldn't see the President's face nor much of the right hand; the "ducking" could be head nod in Z170s as seen from behind.

[Howard Gee]

Jerry, I thought you were kidding about Andrew theorizing that both JFK and Connally were hit by the first shot and that JFK's only reaction was to stop smiling and waving, and that JBC wasn't even aware he was hit. 

YIKES.

[Andrew Mason]

Jerry, I thought you were kidding about Andrew theorizing that both JFK and Connally were hit by the first shot and that JFK's only reaction was to stop smiling and waving, and that JBC wasn't even aware he was hit. 

YIKES.

Jerry editorializes.

 To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.

 Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.

[Howard Gee]

Jerry editorializes.

 To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.

 Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.

You're spinning like a top.

JFK clutched at his chest and neck before disappearing behind the sign in Zapruder ? 

I know you're not claiming that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot, you're just claiming he was shot in the thigh and didn't feel it.