JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 04:29:16 AM

Title: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 04:29:16 AM
Connally was hit at the right armpit and a bullet exited under his right nipple, how did a bullet get to Connally?

In the following images we can see where the men must have been and if you don't agree with these recreations then tell us how much you have to move the two men before there is a clear trajectory directly to Connally and don't forget to consider Connally's injuries.

(http://i.imgur.com/BfXc42C.png)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-b68RLYoo4EU/WVmQAPxNlcI/AAAAAAABMPs/PwSw45SpOJEmga7EDTImVTkxjPniVc1vQCLcBGAs/s1600/SBT_Rendering_Reclaiming_History.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 21, 2018, 04:42:16 AM
It was pure MAGIC!!   If you look at his displayed jacket in Texas, the hole in the suit jacket is larger at back then it is at the front which would indicate a frontal missile.    As far as the wrist is concerned, there is a lot of debate in the testimony as well.    However, he gave a really good stump speech from his hospital bed a mere 5 days after the shooting, rather chipper and upbeat - even though he had many wounds - not even a cough, arm in an elevated sling hanging from the ceiling.  There was even a nurse present during the interview just in case he went into cardiac arrest!

Some of the testimony:

Mr. Specter.He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.
Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest."
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 04:51:26 AM
It was pure MAGIC!!   If you look at his displayed jacket in Texas, the hole in the clothe is larger at back then it is at the front which would indicate a frontal missile.    As far as wrist concern, there is a lot of debate in the testimony as well.  As I said, he gave a really good speech from his hospital bed a mere 5 days later, even though he had many wounds - not even a cough,   arm in a sling.

Some of the testimony:

Mr. Specter.He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the polar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the ear or on a window of the ear with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.
Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest."

No, how did Connally get hit in the back? Did CE399 magically pass through Kennedy?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Gary Craig on September 21, 2018, 04:56:14 AM
Arlen Sector, inadvertently I suspect, shows a bullet path over JFK's shoulder and into JBC's back.

Most likely from a upper floor on the western end of the TSBD.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/SBT%204.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/SBT5.jpg)
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 04:58:00 AM
Your OP is misleading and loaded - before you start talking about JC and his wounds, you need to prove that CE 399 hit anyone in the Presidential limousine. How are you going to do that considering it was not known which gurney the bullet was found on. Was there any human DNA present on CE 399 that could be specifically associated with anyone?

I am just speaking from a position of history and can perfectly understand your reluctance because you have no answers.

How did CE399 get to Connally if it didn't go through Kennedy?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 21, 2018, 05:04:50 AM
John,

You have heard of the word fabrication?  They fired the bullet from the wrong side before the suit jacket was hung out for display!  You want to go for a real good explanation - bury yourself for an hour in this documentary!  They will let you in on how it can be done!  Look from about 23:00.

Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 05:07:19 AM
Arlen Sector, inadvertently I suspect, shows a bullet path over JFK's shoulder and into JBC's back.

Most likely from a upper floor on the western end of the TSBD.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/SBT%204.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/SBT5.jpg)

By changing the trajectory we have a new set of problems and a bullet which is unlikely to exit just under the right nipple,
in the following diagram we can the approximate new flight path which probably would have struck Connally's major organs and killed him.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMjZs2jt/SBT_Rendering_Reclaiming_History.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 05:09:52 AM
John,

You have heard of the word fabrication?  They fired the bullet from the wrong side before the suit jacket was hung out for display!  You want to go for a real good explanation - bury yourself for an hour in this documentary!  They will let you in on how it can be done!  Look from about 23:00.


Quote
You have heard of the word fabrication?

Well I have heard that every piece of physical evidence in this case was fabricated, does that count?

Quote
They fired the bullet from the wrong side before the suit jacket was hung out for display!

Silly conspirators.

Quote
You want to go for a real good explanation - bury yourself for an hour in this documentary!  They will let you in on how it can be done!  Look from about 23:00.

Seen it, what else you got?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 21, 2018, 05:30:18 AM
John, 

That is the million dollar question and how this bullet became magic.  If you look at the argument laid out in the article below, this bullet appeared to be PRISTINE!
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html)

"Pristine" Bullet. Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet found on the stretcher, is virtually undamaged and had no blood or tissue on it. Its appearance is consistent with having been fired through the rifle into water or cotton, recovered, and then planted. Also, there is a serious question as to whether the minimal amount of lead missing from the base of CE-399 can account for the fragments left behind in JFK and Connally.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 05:42:57 AM
John, 

That is the million dollar question and how this bullet became magic.  If you look at the argument laid out in the article below, this bullet appeared to be PRISTINE!
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html)

"Pristine" Bullet. Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet found on the stretcher, is virtually undamaged and had no blood or tissue on it. Its appearance is consistent with having been fired through the rifle into water or cotton, recovered, and then planted. Also, there is a serious question as to whether the minimal amount of lead missing from the base of CE-399 can account for the fragments left behind in JFK and Connally.

pristine
ˈprɪstiːn,ˈprɪstʌɪn/Submit
adjective
in its original condition; unspoilt.
"pristine copies of an early magazine"
clean and fresh as if new; spotless.


(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhs8bMPW/ce399_end.jpg)

CE399 was affected only one way and that way is also corroborated by the injuries, also the amount of lead in Kennedy's chest and Connally was miniscule and CE399 was missing only a bit of lead.

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 21, 2018, 05:51:07 AM
As laid out by the WC report, there were only 2 bullets that struck anyone in the car.  The neck shot and the JFK head shot.  The neck shot is very visible on the President (Zapruder Film evidence) and is the only one the WC concedes hits Connally.  That is CE399.   

The WC ignores Clinton Hill testimony and goes with its own findings of a shot from behind and above.    Clearly when you see JFK move back in his seat and raise his arm, there is a frontal volley coming.  Just considering Clinton Hill's words, there is a major flaw in their evidence or he wasn't close enough to report what he saw.  His report on piece of bone found on street, why Mrs. Kennedy decided to get out of car and all, seems to indicate the path of projectiles was traveling from front to back or at the very least from 2 different sources!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm)
"Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?
Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?
Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas."
....
"Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head."
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 05:57:23 AM
You don't have any answers either, just another pointless and speculative thread on highly speculative and contencious "evidence" that can never be proved one way or another.

All the WC really cared about was that all shots were fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor by LHO. The WC wasn't worried about the firing sequence and what bullet hit what and when.

Go and prove CE 399 went through anyone in the Presidential limousine.

This isn't difficult Tony, how could Connally be shot from behind without CE399 first passing through Kennedy?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 21, 2018, 06:19:28 AM
Your OP is misleading and loaded - before you start talking about JC and his wounds, you need to prove that CE 399 hit anyone in the Presidential limousine. How are you going to do that considering it was not known which gurney the bullet was found on. Was there any human DNA present on CE 399 that could be specifically associated with anyone?

Time-traveler Tony. There were no DNA tests in 1963.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 21, 2018, 06:24:05 AM
John, 

That is the million dollar question and how this bullet became magic.  If you look at the argument laid out in the article below, this bullet appeared to be PRISTINE!
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Single_Bullet_Theory.html)

"Pristine" Bullet. Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet found on the stretcher, is virtually undamaged and had no blood or tissue on it. Its appearance is consistent with having been fired through the rifle into water or cotton, recovered, and then planted. Also, there is a serious question as to whether the minimal amount of lead missing from the base of CE-399 can account for the fragments left behind in JFK and Connally.

The bullet is NOT pristine. It is damaged although this is only very noticeable when the base (short axis) is viewed rather than the side (long axis).
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 21, 2018, 06:40:53 AM
This isn't difficult Tony, how could Connally be shot from behind without CE399 first passing through Kennedy?
Even if it wasn't CE399, a bullet passing through JFK from the entry in the back through to the throat wound is going to hit something in the limousine. The only hole that fits is the one next to John Connally's scapula. It's worth remembering that CE399 and the SBT are independent of each other.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 06:46:14 AM
How do you know CE 399 went through JC and that it struck JFK first?

This is what happens when no one challenges the conclusions of the WC.

"Although Tomlinson was not certain whether the bullet came from the Connally stretcher or the adjacent one, the Commission has concluded that the bullet came from the Governor's stretcher."

Tony, why are you so afraid to confront the evidence?

Connally was hit from behind but Kennedy was in the way, how was Connally shot?

Btw I've altered the OP so you can't keep squirming out of giving an answer.

JohnM

Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 07:46:45 AM

Was JFK "in the way" of the bullet that hit JC if the bullet came from another location from above and behind?


Yes that's the question and since we know the path through Connally and the relative positions of both men, how could Connally's back bullet possibly have missed Kennedy?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 07:54:17 AM
How do you know the origin of the bullet that hit JC?

Tony, stay on target.

How was Connally struck when Kennedy was in the way?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 21, 2018, 08:07:25 AM
How do you know the origin of the bullet that hit JC?

It's a very basic question, Tony. Connally got hit, so:

(a) - did he get hit from his front and the bullet travelled on an upward trajectory exiting through his back?
(b) - did he get hit from behind and the bullet travelled on a downward trajectory exiting through his front?

If (a) is correct was the shooter crouched down under the floor mats

or

If (b) is correct how did the bullet hit Connally yet miss the POTUS altogether?

Basically, where was the shooter?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 08:21:26 AM
Thanks Steve.

Also of interest are these pictures, is there a clear path through Connally which doesn't hit Kennedy?

(https://i2.wp.com/i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02723/kennedy-1_2723334b.jpg)

(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/croft.jpg)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wyprmain/files/styles/medium/public/201411/kennedy.jpg)

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/ee8aa0685a4775f05e47805d25a605fcde4d0ed8/c=151-0-2100-1464/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/08/17/1376786133000-AP-JFK-Files-Still-Sealed.jpg?width=534&height=401&fit=crop)

(http://jfk50geotrail.com/geocaches/craddock_files/image002.jpg)

Dale Myers animation based on the Zapruder film, a bunch of technical data and photos of the Limo through Dallas was a very accurate simulation and shows that any bullet that passed through Connally had to get past Kennedy.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TPu6pImXQII/AAAAAAAAHy0/Mrrplv1FCnQ/s1600/FromDaleMyersAnimation5.jpg)
DVP blog site.

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 08:31:58 AM
None of those pictures prove that CE 399 hit anyone.

And none of your replies answers the question posed in the OP, go and Troll someone else's thread.

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 21, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
If the SBT was that "obvious", as you are trying to assert, why didn't the WC buy into it?

The only thing you can say was that a bullet hit JC from above and behind.

Not one person saw a weapon discharge from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.

That includes Brennan.

Tony, Forget about previous theories. Pretend that the WC Report hasn't yet been published. Here's your chance to present a statement based on the injuries to the POTUS and Connally. Was Connally hit from in front or from behind? If from in front did the bullet travel on an upward trajectory exiting through his back or, if from behind did the bullet travel on a downward trajectory exiting through his front?

It's that simple. You have a blank canvas on which to present your theory. How did it happen?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 21, 2018, 08:48:46 AM
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?

There have been at least 20 CE 399/SBT threads that all end up the same - Going in circles and unsolvable.

You found the magic panacea that no one else has?
You're better than this Tony. Your thread about the paper bag is well argued and worthy of consideration by all posters here.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 08:48:55 AM
If the SBT was that "obvious", as you are trying to assert, why didn't the WC buy into it?

The only thing you can say was that a bullet hit JC from above and behind.

Not one person saw a weapon discharge from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.

That includes Brennan.

Quote
If the SBT was that "obvious", as you are trying to assert, why didn't the WC buy into it?

Because a couple of members didn't understand the concept, the rest were convinced enough to specify that there was persuasive evidence that one bullet caused the injuries. The HSCA with advanced technology and utilizing the finest medical minds on the planet concluded that one bullet passed through both men. And later with the advent of computers and a closer look at individual alternating frames we can pinpoint the exact Zapruder frames where both men react simultaneously and with advanced 3D imaging like Myers we can see that one bullet did indeed pass through both men.

Quote
The only thing you can say was that a bullet hit JC from above and behind.

Yep and Oswald's rifle was above and behind, what a coincidence!

Quote
Not one person saw a weapon discharge from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.

And not one person saw anyone anywhere else in Dealey Plaza with a rifle! and besides the President of the USA was driving by and you reckon that people should be looking for Oswald up on the 6th floor, wow, get a grip!

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 08:55:22 AM
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?

There have been at least 20 CE 399/SBT threads that all end up the same - Going in circles and unsolvable.

You found the magic panacea that no one else has?

Quote
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?

No, I set up a thread that asked a legitimate question, you can't answer the question and now are Trolling MY thread, if you don't like it then your next step is simple, go troll elsewhere!

Quote
There have been at least 20 CE 399/SBT threads that all end up the same - Going in circles and unsolvable.

Again, I asked a simple question and you're doing your damnedest to avoid it, why?

Quote
You found the magic panacea that no one else has?

Well by the response of our current crop of Kooks, I pretty much nailed it!

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 21, 2018, 09:00:19 AM
Steve, based on the angle and trajectory, JC was hit from above and behind.

Based on the prosectors who performed the autopsy on JFK, no evidence of a through and through wound was found.

You know something they didn't?

Tony, I'm happy to have arrived at a point where we agree that Connally was hit from above and behind. Do you know how many people still argue that he was hit from in front?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:02:46 AM

When the bullet hit JC, which ever Z frame that was at, you - nor anyone else - knows the exact position of both men nor the exact location of the shot. Do you?


We know the path of the bullet through Connally and we know that Connally was hit after he emerged from behind the sign, so how hard is to show me the appropriate Z frame that shows a path through Connally that also misses Kennedy?


JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:18:18 AM
No one - computer or physical reproduction - has even come close to reproducing the SBT. MYER's error cone can not exclude the Dal-Tex building.

You also can not rule out an alternative firing position from above and behind.

For a bullet to have gone over JFK'S right shoulder and to have missed him, how much bullet diameter are we talking about here?

Quote
No one - computer or physical reproduction - has even come close to reproducing the SBT. MYER's error cone can not exclude the Dal-Tex building.

Well maybe if the shells and rifle were found in the DAL tex building then you may have something but till then please stop embarrassing yourself.

Quote
You also can not rule out an alternative firing position from above and behind.

I haven't, I'm just waiting for someone to demonstrate any other theory with actual evidence because endless biased speculation is worthless.

Quote
For a bullet to have gone over JFK'S right shoulder and to have missed him, how much bullet diameter are we talking about here?

If a bullet goes over Kennedy's right shoulder then how does it hit Connally who was in a lower jump seat and this lower position was also compounded by the 3 degree slope of Elm street?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:22:37 AM
No one - computer or physical reproduction - has even come close to reproducing the SBT. MYER's error cone can not exclude the Dal-Tex building.
 

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHmCJHWR/dale_myers_cones.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:27:24 AM
You don't know the exact position of both men and the Z frame JFK is first hit. Humans react and behave differently to being shot.

Quote
You don't know the exact position of both men and the Z frame JFK is first hit.

You're still left with the problem of how did Connally get hit without the bullet going through Kennedy.

Quote
Humans react and behave differently to being shot.

Both men reacting simultaneously.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Xyf3minuoxuBq/giphy.gif)

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:38:05 AM
Do you honestly believe a professional assassin would leave any evidence behind?

Both JFK and JC were equally affected by the slope of Elm Street.

Can you rule out a shot from anywhere else from above and behind?

Start with the Dal-Tex.

Quote
Do you honestly believe a professional assassin would leave any evidence behind?

Listen closely Tony, the only evidence discovered that directly linked to the fragments in the Limo was the rifle and shells on the 6th floor of the depository, you know the building where Oswald worked.

Quote
Both JFK and JC were equally affected by the slope of Elm Street.

Yes and relative to Oswald, Connally was an extra 3 degrees below Kennedy.

Quote
Can you rule out a shot from anywhere else from above and behind?

I keep asking that question and all I see is evasion.

Quote
Start with the Dal-Tex.

Why?

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:43:49 AM
That is called an animation and is not a reflection of reality. An team from SA, used anatomically correct torsos and used very accurate measurements - the bullet came out of "JFK'S" LHS chest following the natural trajectory of the shot from the SE corner of the 6th floor. According to the WC, the transiting bullet was meant to come out from the throat. They effectively debunked the SBT.

Now place the follow up car just behind the Presidential limo - any one recalled a bullet wizzing over their right hand side?

In the reconstructions, the SS follow up car was absent - why?

Quote
An team from SA, used anatomically correct torsos

The innards were similar to Human but to call their generic gelatinous blob an accurate representation of Kennedy's overall dimensions is just wishful thinking.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/G0Op1zF1Vws/hqdefault.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:55:07 AM
Which Z frame was JFK hit? How do you know JC wasn't reacting to hearing a shot - he was startled at hearing the crack of the shot?

So let me get this straight in the following gif, Connally throws his right arm up, shifts dramatically in his seat and his jacket just happens to billow at precisely the same moment as Kennedy is reacting and Connally is simply hearing a loud noise?

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Xyf3minuoxuBq/giphy.gif)

Btw there was reportedly plenty of motorcycle backfiring, did anybody say that Connally was jumping around like a hyperactive jackrabbit as they passed down Main street?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 09:56:59 AM
No evasion - your entire thread is a waste of time...

And that's where I stop reading Tony Fratini's uneducated responses.

Be gone Troll!

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:00:56 AM
No they used measurements based on tailor fitted clothing and on height. Do you think Meyers had better measurements?

Based on trajectory the bullet did not exit out of the throat AS IT MUST according to the WC.

Thats a fail.

Even more humorous, they got a qualified Dr to examine the results of the simulated shooting - he concluded that the wounds were due to two separate shots. Oooops.

Why do you go on, you already admitted that I'm wasting your time but for some reason you want to torture me with ever more Trolling?

No evasion - your entire thread is a waste of time....

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:13:59 AM
And you call me a troll?

Well yeah, many posts ago you said that my thread was waste of time but you still Troll me, why?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 21, 2018, 10:16:30 AM
Which Z frame was JFK hit? How do you know JC wasn't reacting to hearing a shot - he was startled at hearing the crack of the shot?

In a Melbourne Cup I'd back the speed of a bullet over the speed of sound every time.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:17:14 AM
Well 6 pages in and we are no closer to establishing how Connally got hit with a bullet that managed to completely miss Kennedy.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
In a Melbourne Cup I'd back the speed of a bullet over the speed of sound every time.

Yep, Kooks have their own version of Cartoon Physics. God bless em.

JohnM
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:27:31 AM
Do you believe everyone that reads these threads have the same background knowledge?

There are a stack of problems with CE 399 and the SBT - it isn't as simple as you propose.

Quote
Do you believe everyone that reads these threads have the same background knowledge?

All was explained in the OP, can Connally be hit when Kennedy was blocking the path of the bullet and so far all you've done is avoided the issue and attempted a weak game of bait and switch and that's not honest.

Quote
There are a stack of problems with CE 399 and the SBT - it isn't as simple as you propose.

Again my premise is simple, answer the question.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:32:22 AM
No, i am highlighting where you are wrong.

I can delete all my posts if you want - no problems with me. But those issues will still be there JohnM.

Quote
No, i am highlighting where you are wrong.

Yeah, like pointing out that Connally's violent reaction was because of a noise.

Quote
I can delete all my posts if you want - no problems with me. But those issues will still be there JohnM.

No need to delete anything, I actually like that you spent post after post avoiding the OP which is just further proof that the SBF is beyond debate, thanks Cobber!

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:37:35 AM
JohnM, you are speculating on what happened. If JFK was hit while behind the sign, why is JC reacting now?

In the frame that Kennedy emerges from behind the sign his hand can be seen going down just before he and Connally simultaneously react.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2jvdam4bt00/VVfoJFx064I/AAAAAAABGGI/pKHXhM1_PmY/s1600/Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif)

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 21, 2018, 10:49:34 AM
At 2000 feet per second, the bullet had already gone through both men. When did it?

Do you now acknowledge that the bullet was faster than sound when it struck? You said earlier Connally might have been reacting to the sound rather than a bullet strike.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:50:43 AM
The issue is simple - was JFK sitting in the correct position and orientation to allow CE 399 to transit from his upper right back through the lower third of the neck below the Adam's apple and then enter at the extreme right side of JC's back at a point below his right armpit.

All the best in proving that JohnM, especially when the prosectors didn't.

You're asking questions that we have answers to, from the time that the Limo emerged from behind the sign we know how Kennedy was seated and we know how Connally was seated and we know all his movements, but you still can't come up with any trajectory that satisfies Connally's wounds that doesn't first strike Kennedy, why not?

Quote
All the best in proving that JohnM, especially when the prosectors didn't.

What a copout, they didn't have the advanced analytical tools like CG and alternating gifs that we have today.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 10:54:00 AM
Do you now acknowledge that the bullet was faster than sound when it struck? You said earlier Connally might have been reacting to the sound rather than a bullet strike.

Good point, but unfortunately I don't think that science is Fratini's forte so any explanation that's not simplified like for a child, will just sail over his head.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 21, 2018, 10:56:47 AM
Good thread John M.

The SBT ultimately proves itself. The location of from where the shots originated is known. Brennan stated he saw the rifle fired from the SE corner and BRW, Jarman, and Norman all stated it was fired from right above them which is the SE corner of the 6th floor.

You can't explain JBC's back wound without the bullet first passing through JFK.

Brennan 11/23 Dallas Morning News by Kent Biffle.

"After the first shot, I looked up and saw him. The gun was sticking out the window. I saw him fire a second time."
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 21, 2018, 11:51:37 AM
The Single Bullet Fact is validated by the application of basic common sense.

JFK and JBC are seen simultaneously reacting to being hit from behind.

There is no bullet found in JFK or JBC.

Based on the trajectory of the shot which HAD to have passed through JFK it's hard to imagine how it would have missed JBC, but even if it did miss Connally at the very least it would have wound up in the limo.

There is no bullet found in the limo. Although there are two large fragments found in the front of the limo, it's hard to imagine they're not associated with the bullet that blew JFK's head off and went on to damage the chrome above the windshield and crack the glass.

Similarly, the bullet that struck Connally and wound up barely penetrating his thigh is not found in his body.

Where did this bullet go ?

The only logical answer is that the bullet found at Parkland AKA CE399 is the bullet which passed through JFK and wounded JBC.

Spare me the '399 was planted' lunacy as that can easily be dispelled through the application of common sense as well.

It should also be noted that CE399 was fired from C2766 to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Gary Craig on September 21, 2018, 02:32:41 PM
LBJ and Russell September 9,1964:

RUSSELL: No, no, They're trying to prove that the same bullett that hit Kennedy first was the one that hit Connally, went through him and through his hand, his bone and into his leg... I couldn't hear all the evidence and cross-examine all of 'em. But I did read the record...I was the only fellow there that...suggested any change whatever in what the staff got up. This staff business always scares me. I like to put my own views down. But we got you a pretty good report.

LBJ: Well, what difference does it make which bullet got Connally?

RUSSELL: Well, it don't make much difference. But they said that...the commission believes that the same bullet that hit Kennedy hit Connally. Well I don't believe it.

LBJ: I don't either

RUSSELL: And so I couldn't sign it. And I said that Govenor Connally testified directly to the contrary and I'm not gonna approve of that. So I finnally made 'em say there was a difference in the commission,in that part of 'em believed that that wasn't so. And 'course if a fellow was accurate enough to hit Kennedy right in the neck on one shot and knock his head off in the next one-and he's leaning up against his wife's head-and not even wound her-why, he didn't miss completely with that third shot. But according to their theory, he not only missed the whole automobile, but he missed the the street! Well, a man that's a good enough shot to put two bullets right into Kennedy, he didn't miss that whole automobile.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4271&relPageId=27
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Gary Craig on September 21, 2018, 02:34:10 PM
John F Kennedy - The Autopsy
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 21, 2018, 02:39:00 PM
Let me guess Jack, your "two shot hypothesis" is absolutely reliant on the SBT and everyone (majority of witnesses) who heard three distinct shots were "mistaken"?

So those researchers looking for the "lost bullet" were just wasting their time  because only two shots were ever fired.  ;D

You always seem to be particularly fascinated about the number of shots. Must be something about there only having been two shots fired that makes sense to you. Maybe because most of the early eyewitness reports stated it. If you can prove there was a third shot by all means do so. Neither the WC or the HSCA definitely believed there was three shots fired.

The question in front of you, that you seem unable to answer, is how was JBC wounded if the bullet does not first pass through JFK. You could not answer this question two years ago and apparently you still can't answer it now.

Funny about Kent Bifle writing the story about Brennan seeing the rifle fired. Isn't he one of the witnesses who first saw CE 142 in the SN and ended the whole Studebaker-Day making the bag storyline?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 21, 2018, 02:57:15 PM
No one has said that CE 399 was planted.

What you have to prove was that CE 399 went through anyone on 22/11/1963.

List your evidence:

Note - speculation is not evidence.

The evidence is JFK's and JBC's wounds.

That's not speculation, that's fact.

What ? You think they weren't wounded by gunfire ?

Are you proposing that a bullet or bullets fired on a downward angle and wounding both men just vanished into thin air ?

The bullet(s) would either be found in the men, or in the limo, or in the case of Connally's barely subcutaneous thigh wound, in Parkland after it was dislodged from the extremely minor wound or his pants.

It's a common sense, no-brainer.

The only other possibility that deserves consideration is TWO shooters from the rear, and even that wouldn't explain the absence of a bullet in either man or in the limo.

Add in the fact no witness has ever reported seeing an additional gunman in the TSBD or DalTex building firing a rifle at 12:30 PM, and that only three shells were found, only one rifle was found, and the rifle that was found fired CE399 to the exclusion of any other rifle on the planet and you've got the SINGLE BULLET FACT.

Here's another newsflash; the theory that JFK's throat wound was an entry wound can be dispelled just as easily if you just apply a little common sense to that problem.

Common sense ain't so common, at least not when it comes to CKs.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Agee on September 21, 2018, 04:32:04 PM
If JFK was hit before he goes behind the sign, then so is JC with 5 wounds. How then was JC able to turn around and look at JFK with shattered ribs and a cracked wrist?

That is an excellent question, and as a LN I have always wondered about that. Delayed reaction? Seems unlikely but i am no wound ballistic expert. JFK and JC hit by separate bullets within a 1/4 or a second or so? That seems impossible given the evidence. But good question Tony, and I admit, that has me puzzled.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 05:52:46 PM
You ARE the biggest Troll on the forum. You set up a thread with a pre determined and loaded question, don't like the responses and then call me a troll?

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/srg19CG0cKMuI/200.gif)
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 05:54:26 PM
And not one person saw anyone anywhere else in Dealey Plaza with a rifle! and besides the President of the USA was driving by and you reckon that people should be looking for Oswald up on the 6th floor, wow, get a grip!

But you somehow know it was Oswald, because . . . reasons.

Get a grip, indeed.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 05:58:26 PM
Well maybe if the shells and rifle were found in the DAL tex building then you may have something but till then please stop embarrassing yourself.

"the shells and rifle".  Like you know what shells and rifle caused Connally's wounds.

Who searched the Dal-Tex building?
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 06:03:16 PM
No they used measurements based on tailor fitted clothing and on height. Do you think Meyers had better measurements?

This hunchbacked monstrosity is supposed to be accurate?

(https://i0.wp.com/jfkfacts.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Screen-Shot-2016-01-29-at-8.41.18-AM.png)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 21, 2018, 06:10:18 PM
The truth really lies with the witness videos that we have of their statements (very soon after and much later).  We then can compare them to an accepted evidence film such as the Zapruder and the others.   Try to overlay those statements and see how it is feasible that the SBT could even occur and if it matches the reports.

1) You will notice in the Zapruder Film that when the car emerges from behind the sign, both JFK and JC were looking directly at the umbrella man located at the front of the Stemmons sign.  That is undeniable.  Notice half the umbrella is at the front of the sign so it is not visible.
2) The position of JC at the instant JFK reaches to his throat is way out alignment with the TBSD 6th floor window.  JC suit jacket shows the bullet hole on the RHS ("under his nipple") with a larger hole at the back of the jacket (RHS as well) then at the front.  All under the same armpit.  The wrist at this instant in time is off even further to the RHS of his body in the Zapruder frames.    This is an impossible angle for a neck shot to even come close to doing what has been recorded it did!

Look at the closest eyewitness testimonies you have (JC and Nellie Connally) and pick out what is consistent and what is not.   They have been interviewed many times.  JC's first interview from the hospital bed says he lapped in and out of consciousness - not sure of anything.  As time went by and new evidence introduced, his story became more embellished yet and more sure of himself.   The first recollection he wasn't too sure of exactly what happened - but his memory became better as time went on!  Later on he remembers exactly that he never lost consciousness at all!    Nellie notes how she held her hand over the "sucking" wound which allowed him to continue breathing or he would have died.  She doesn't even put her hands close to where the suit jacket (RHS) indicates such wounds are noted in reports.  She goes directly over the chest cavity, crosses her arms.   

Their testimonies do not match the frames of the Zapruder Film - very important.   There is absolutely no synergy!  Her upper body is by the floor boards of JFK's feet (follow the frames) while JC finds himself sitting with his head in the corner by the corner post of driver Greer driving to the hospital!   No one wants to look at those photos and pick these facts out!   Amazing how people want to bury their heads in the sand and not look at those frames and see what matches to the key eyewitnesses.   Jacqueline Kennedy was never sought like they were, to state her opinions before the cameras!  Did she not have a voice and allowed to speak?     Why can't these 2 key witnesses have a better account of what really happened?     Surely this is a coverup if you can't find synergy!

Compare that to this interview on CNN.  1)  Note how Nellie points to a bullet going from JC RHS back to his LHS "nipple" (points with her fingers even!) and says "through his lung and ribs...." !   2) She can't remember the response when she tells JFK that you can't say Dallas doesn't love you,   JC has to interject the response!  Her initial interview on November 24, 1963 did not include JFK's reply. It is on youtube as well.  3)  John was in her lap at the time the "3rd shot" came in and hit JFK in the head.  Ridiculous. Yes, his head was on her feet out of line of fire but certainly wasn't face up!  Again, look at Zapruder Film.   Note their positions!
4)  She also said in this interview that the "Driver called to the escort and said 'lets get out of her quick'.  JC affirms that.  I guess he had the microphone!
She went on to write a book!  This looks like the book interview, to help the sales out!
Isn't it amazing what comes out of the mouths of first hand key witnesses and those closest to the scene and the President?    I guess they will take the truth with them to the grave!  The LNers are lucky they didn't have a conscience.   We have their records to peruse and see how it compares to crime scene videos such as the Zapruder film!  Even though this evidence has been tampered with,  the truth still oozes out!

Even in 2003 she made a powerful statement in her interview!  Did she even know her husband intimately to know the location of his wounds.  It is like she had never saw where his scars where!  Embellished is a word I like to use rather sparingly given the fact that we are discussing the death of the POTUS.   I just can't help it!  It was totally embellished and falsified!






Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 06:13:24 PM
Common sense ain't so common, at least not when it comes to CKs.

"Common sense" is what you appeal to when you don't have any real evidence.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 06:20:27 PM
Brennan 11/23 Dallas Morning News by Kent Biffle.

"After the first shot, I looked up and saw him. The gun was sticking out the window. I saw him fire a second time."


Brennan said a lot of things.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 21, 2018, 08:38:54 PM
Brennan said a lot of things.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/11hs000.jpg)

No recoil. No flash. Only an upward "bounce" that a different style grip would arrest.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 08:45:49 PM
No recoil. No flash. Only an upward "bounce" that a different style grip would arrest.

Ok, so smoke and a bounce rather than a flash and a recoil.   ::)

But how did Brennan know that it was being fired, then?  And how did he see both the rifle being fired and JFK's head explode?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 21, 2018, 11:27:24 PM
Connally was hit at the right armpit and a bullet exited under his right nipple, how did a bullet get to Connally?

In the following images we can see where the men must have been and if you don't agree with these recreations then tell us how much you have to move the two men before there is a clear trajectory directly to Connally and don't forget to consider Connally's injuries....

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-b68RLYoo4EU/WVmQAPxNlcI/AAAAAAABMPs/PwSw45SpOJEmga7EDTImVTkxjPniVc1vQCLcBGAs/s1600/SBT_Rendering_Reclaiming_History.gif)

JohnM
You can't tell what the path was from the SN unless you know where the car was when the second bullet struck.  According to Nellie it was after she looked rearward toward JFK.  She is still looking at him at z256. According to Altgens, there was only one shot before his z256 photo. According to Greer, it prompted him to turn to the rear for the first time immediately, which he did at z278-280.  According to over 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between 1  and 3.  According to Hickey and, perhaps, Kinney, JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time of the second shot.   You will notice JBC start sailing forward immediately after z272.  JFK's hair flies up from z273-276.  The sun visor above Greer's head, that was hit by a bullet fragment, moves up between z271-272.  All of that is pretty consistent and points to a shot at z271-72.  At that point, JFK has already received his neck wound and the third shot causes the head wound has not occurred.  So shot no. 2 missed him.  If it just missed the right side of his head, which fits with what Hickey observed, it must have hit JBC on the right side.  To see if a shot from the SN has a clear path at that point, just put the car where it was at z272 and see how they line up.

Keep in mind JFK has moved left toward Jackie quite a bit and JBC has turned quite a bit to the right with his right armpit facing the SN.  His right wrist is pronated so the back of the wrist is against his right chest.

If you put the car at z272, the angle of the car direction to a line from the SN is smaller than you have shown because the road turns so that the SN is almost directly behind. One can easily see that a path from the SN to the right side of JFK's head goes into JBC's right armpit:

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/3D_Model_DP_z271.jpg)

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 22, 2018, 12:14:38 AM
Ok, so smoke and a bounce rather than a flash and a recoil.   ::)


The "bounce" is unique to the animation.

Quote
But how did Brennan know that it was being fired, then?  And how did he see both the rifle being fired and JFK's head explode?

Maybe he saw some wisp of smoke or figured it was being fired from the sound. Claiming to see the President's head explode came later; it's not in his affidavit of Nov. 22 or WC testimony.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 22, 2018, 12:26:42 AM
The "bounce" is unique to the animation.

Maybe he saw some wisp of smoke or figured it was being fired from the sound. Claiming to see the President's head explode came later; it's not in his affidavit of Nov. 22 or WC testimony.

If memory serves, I think Brennan (or Euins?) said he couldn't see the limo downrange, and thus couldn't see if anyone was hit... something along those lines.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 22, 2018, 03:02:37 AM
You can't tell what the path was from the SN unless you know where the car was when the second bullet struck.  According to Nellie it was after she looked rearward toward JFK.  She is still looking at him at z256. According to Altgens, there was only one shot before his z256 photo. According to Greer, it prompted him to turn to the rear for the first time immediately, which he did at z278-280.  According to over 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between 1  and 3.  According to Hickey and, perhaps, Kinney, JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time of the second shot.   You will notice JBC start sailing forward immediately after z272.  JFK's hair flies up from z273-276.  The sun visor above Greer's head, that was hit by a bullet fragment, moves up between z271-272.  All of that is pretty consistent and points to a shot at z271-72.  At that point, JFK has already received his neck wound and the third shot causes the head wound has not occurred.  So shot no. 2 missed him.  If it just missed the right side of his head, which fits with what Hickey observed, it must have hit JBC on the right side.  To see if a shot from the SN has a clear path at that point, just put the car where it was at z272 and see how they line up.

Keep in mind JFK has moved left toward Jackie quite a bit and JBC has turned quite a bit to the right with his right armpit facing the SN.  His right wrist is pronated so the back of the wrist is against his right chest.

If you put the car at z272 with the angle of the car to a line from the SN much smaller because the road turns to that the SN is almost directly behind, you can easily see that a path from the SN to the right side of JFK's head goes into JBC's right armpit:

(http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg)

Seems Connally "sails forward" in the Z260s, as well.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 22, 2018, 03:19:33 AM
Arlen actually demonstrated how it could be done - by the bullet passing just above JFK's right shoulder.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2mfd4zo.jpg)

Thanks Tony, that trajectory was calculated to go right back to the sniper's nest window, the one with the shells and on one of the rifle rest boxes Oswald's fingerprints were orientated down Elm street and don't forget on the same floor Oswald's rifle with Oswald's prints and fibers that matched Oswald's arrest shirt. How on Earth can anyone be innocent with this mountain of evidence against them?

Btw the reason that they went over his shoulder was that it was easier than going through his shoulder.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 22, 2018, 03:50:19 AM
You asked the question and Arlen just showed you how it was possible - all it needed was the diameter of the bullet above JFK's right shoulder and there you go - you miss JFK and strike JC.

You can not rule out a shot from the Dal-Tex nor can you place Lee's hands on any rifle.

Quote
You asked the question and Arlen just showed you how it was possible - all it needed was the diameter of the bullet above JFK's right shoulder and there you go - you miss JFK and strike JC.

Yep and one of Oswald's bullets was unaccounted for, 3 shots 3 hits is perfectly plausible but we do have to consider Connally's back wound which was linear in shape indicating a tumbling bullet, how does a bullet start tumbling?

Quote
You can not rule out a shot from the Dal-Tex

The evidence is that the rifle that fired the shots was found on the 6th floor of the Depository, someone with a rifle was seen on the 6th floor of the Depository, 3 shells were found by the window on the 6th floor of the Depository, Harold Norman heard a bolt action rifle and what sounded like shells hitting the floor right above his head. And so far there is not one single piece of evidence that supports any manufacturing or planting of evidence.
Now putting aside any personal gut instinct, when a scientist examines the above so far undisputed evidence what must their conclusion be?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 22, 2018, 04:12:06 AM
Many official committees looked at the SBT and to see if it was possible.

The problem is abundantly clear - JFK had to be in a specific position and posture to allow an alignment at ONE specific moment in time.

There is disagreement as to when the first shot struck anyone in the Presidential Limo let alone the possibility of an alignment between both men.

That's why the WC didn't pursue it. It was an exercise in futility.

What can't be disputed is that both men are reacting simultaneously, you can give excuses like Connally heard a sound but viewing the footage makes claims like that pure nonsense.

In the first frames as they emerge from behind the sign all seems well.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-94Smfj5-wQ4/UolSwlgbXNI/AAAAAAAAw1w/2t04L3GlQPY/s527/110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif)

Connally's jacket billows.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8v-YQb6mFo0/WVXcxF5rw4I/AAAAAAABMJE/Ge6Ef1RgHQkDioCxaoghpM0Npv6-xgpIACLcBGAs/s1600/Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-94Smfj5-wQ4/UolSwlgbXNI/AAAAAAAAw1w/2t04L3GlQPY/s530/110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif)

Connally's right side is twisting down as his left shoulder bobs up and Kennedy's hands are starting to react.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2jvdam4bt00/VVfoJFx064I/AAAAAAABGGI/pKHXhM1_PmY/s1600/Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif)

Both men violently react, Connally's right wrist the one that was hit and Kennedy both show a similar reaction to something traumatic.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif)

And in full motion the simultaneous reaction is clear as day and only dishonest people would deny they are moving at the same time.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)

Btw I grabbed these gifs from DVP's website, one of the best resources available.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 22, 2018, 04:23:14 AM
Yep and one of Oswald's bullets was unaccounted for, 3 shots 3 hits is perfectly plausible but we do have to consider Connally's back wound which was linear in shape indicating a tumbling bullet, how does a bullet start tumbling?

The evidence is that the rifle that fired the shots was found on the 6th floor of the Depository, someone with a rifle was seen on the 6th floor of the Depository, 3 shells were found by the window on the 6th floor of the Depository, Harold Norman heard a bolt action rifle and what sounded like shells hitting the floor right above his head. And so far there is not one single piece of evidence that supports any manufacturing or planting of evidence.
Now putting aside any personal gut instinct, when a scientist examines the above so far undisputed evidence what must their conclusion be?

JohnM

Yep and one of Oswald's bullets was unaccounted for,

Oswald's bullets.. LOL
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 22, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
I am glad that you asked.

It took 61 cm (24 inches) of ballistic gel before the bullet started to tumble.

I don't believe JFK's neck was anywhere near that width.

According to the WC - the bullet that transited JFK struck no bone and left a very small circular hole in the throat - so why would it tumble between both men?

How do you know the bullet didn't strike JC at a tangent hence leaving a larger hole?

Dr. Robert Shaw elongated the back wound on JC by tissue debridement. He also corrected his official report which contained an error.

So much for a tumbling bullet.

Firstly, ballistics gel is good and all but we are talking about a bullet that hit a relatively solid object going through the neck and then emerging back into the air.

Lattimer recreated the neck with a neck and then put a card up in Connally's position to see if there was any tumbling and 5 out of 6 test bullets tumbled.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyZRL4b8/tumbling_carcano_lattimer_zps56ahhtdp.jpg)

Secondly we know where Connally was hit and that was on the virtually flat of his back next to his armpit.

(https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/gregory1.gif)

And we know the path went down and out just below his right nippple.

So we are left with just working out the maths.
1. If a bullet tumbles it's still moving in one direction and when this tumbling bullet strikes Connally it will make a keyhole in that shape.
2. If a bullet strikes at an oblique angle then we can create the same dimension but how do we account for the angles either he was shot from a blimp and the bullet magically changed direction as it passed through his body or what?

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbHCnpMS/tumbling_carcano_b_zpspbph3ibg.jpg)

Geez Louise, it looks like the "tumbling bullet theory" gets to live another day, but do try again and next time bring your "A" game, K?

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 22, 2018, 11:09:34 AM
The bullet couldn't have been tumbling as it left JFK's throat, as the hole was too small and round.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 22, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
What you cant discount was that both men were hit by separate bullets fired by two gunmen located above and behind the President.


Where did the 2 separate bullets that struck both men go ?

You do realize that if you are claiming that CE399 didn't wound either man, then you are proposing two magical disappearing bullets, right ?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 22, 2018, 02:07:39 PM
Arlen actually demonstrated how it could be done - by the bullet passing just above JFK's right shoulder.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2mfd4zo.jpg)

That wasn't the correct alignment of the JBC and JFK.  JBC was slightly inboard of JFK. Specter proved the only way to place a wound in JBC's back was by the bullet passing through JFK first.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184651/m1/1/high_res/?width=930(http://)

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 22, 2018, 02:35:15 PM
You mean Arlen was standing next to the assassin with a movie camera and saw there was no possibility of JC being struck by a bullet 6.5 mm in diameter because JFK was in the way?

Who has shown that any bullet had transited JFK?

You posted image wasnt a reflection of when the shots were being fired Jack.

At least you understand the alignment of the two men shows the bullet needed to pass through JFK first. The only way to explain JBC's back wound was with a bullet passing through JFK and Specter proved that. If you have a photo that shows a different alignment post it. All the ones I have seen show that exact alignment.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 22, 2018, 04:22:27 PM
Yep and one of Oswald's bullets was unaccounted for, 3 shots 3 hits is perfectly plausible but we do have to consider Connally's back wound which was linear in shape indicating a tumbling bullet, how does a bullet start tumbling?
Actually, it was described by Dr. Shaw as an elliptical wound. He did not describe a wound that was inconsistent with a pristine bullet striking at an angle.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 22, 2018, 04:37:58 PM
What can't be disputed is that both men are reacting simultaneously, you can give excuses like Connally heard a sound but viewing the footage makes claims like that pure nonsense.

In the first frames as they emerge from behind the sign all seems well.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-94Smfj5-wQ4/UolSwlgbXNI/AAAAAAAAw1w/2t04L3GlQPY/s527/110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif)

Connally's jacket billows.
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.

Quote
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2jvdam4bt00/VVfoJFx064I/AAAAAAABGGI/pKHXhM1_PmY/s1600/Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif)

Both men violently react, Connally's right wrist the one that was hit and Kennedy both show a similar reaction to something traumatic.
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).

Quote
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif)

And in full motion the simultaneous reaction is clear as day and only dishonest people would deny they are moving at the same time.
They are reacting at the same time, although if his clenched hand positions are part of his reaction it seems that JFK's reaction had already begun prior to z224.  If so, their reactions did not begin simultaneously. The evidence of JBC and Nellie was that JFK and JBC did react at the same time that way - to the first shot.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 22, 2018, 05:21:25 PM

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/_/rsrc/1371679761456/neckwound/jfk-arm-over-rail-01.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_alt5Groden.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/TOWNER2.JPG)

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z162.jpg)

Take one of Dillard's Love Field photos and reposition Kennedy so his right torso is over tight against the limousine interior, as was his position in Dealey Plaza. In the original Love Field photo, Kennedy was leaning towards the car's mid-line and wasn't sitting upright.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 22, 2018, 06:30:09 PM
I am challenging that CE 399 went through JFK.

I believe I have answered the OP - whatever hit JC missed JFK by going just over his right shoulder.

How do you expect anyone to work out what bullet hit who and when, when not even the WC was able to?

So go ahead and try and connect CE 399 to JFK or to JC.

How do u account for the damage to the Limo, bullets hitting the pavement and the strike to Tague?


"I am challenging that CE 399 went through JFK.

I believe I have answered the OP - whatever hit JC missed JFK by going just over his right shoulder."
==============================

Actually what you seem to believe is that 399 didn't hit either man and that it was planted. 

First, let's deal with your theory that a bullet narrowly missed JFK's shoulder and hit JBC.

What do you propose happened to the bullet that hit JBC ? 

What do you propose happened to the bullet that actually hit JFK in the back ?

Since no bullet was found in JFK's body, we must assume it exited somewhere.

And if it didn't exit from his throat, then what caused the throat wound ?

We can rule out a throat entrance wound because there's no corresponding exit wound and no bullet was found in JFK's neck. So what happened to the bullet(s) that caused JFK's back/ throat wounds ?

=================================
The ConspiraClowns are reduced to postulating the absurd 'CE399 was planted' poppycock - but that STILL wouldn't explain the missing bullet(s) in their alternative reconstruction of the shooting sequence and the wounds to both men.
================================

As for the damage to the limo, I say caused by fragments from the head shot. What's your alternative explanation ?

Bullets hitting the pavement ?  Where is your evidence for bullets (plural) hitting pavement ? You're going to have to do better than Groden's comical 2 foot long gouge in concrete adjacent to a manhole cover as being caused by a bullet strike or someone supposedly picking up a bullet from GRASS.

I think it's quite possible, in fact likely, a bullet did hit pavement right near the limo. I lean to the 'pavement bullet', or a fragment thereof, going on to chip the curb near Tague resulting in his facial abrasion, but it's also possible the chipped curb was a result of a fragment from the head shot.

Feel free to explain what YOU think caused the limo damage and Tague's wounds, and then take a crack at explaining where the missing bullet(s) went in whatever proposed alternative to the Single Bullet Fact YOU can come up with.

COMMON SENSE - SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 22, 2018, 07:30:56 PM
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.
Bullet through Connally ca. Z223
 
Bullet through Connally ca. Z271
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2nvv891.jpg)
Jacket billowing, right wrist or hat
dropped down. Facial reaction/"hat flip"
immediately after this animation
 
(http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg)
Do you see anything so compelling
in Mason's proposed area where
Connally was struck in torso and wrist?
Quote
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)

Per Mason, Connally (not struck in torso and wrist until after the animation) merely shows concern for JFK. ( And possibly swatting away a fly with his hat )

Quote
They are reacting at the same time, although if his clenched hand positions are part of his reaction it seems that JFK's reaction had already begun prior to z224.  If so, their reactions did not begin simultaneously. The evidence of JBC and Nellie was that JFK and JBC did react at the same time that way - to the first shot.

Kennedy's hand-clench in Z224 could be consistent with how his hand would cup over the other during the motorcade.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/_/rsrc/1373308319398/misc/mason/slumpwitnesses/Z172ff-slump.png)
When Kennedy raises his right arm from the car-rail earlier in the Zapruder film, the hand is clenched-like (Z174). Likewise, lowering the right arm to cup over the other would cause the right hand to be clench-like.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdorableDifferentArmednylonshrimp-small.gif)  (https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DamagedLastingAiredale-small.gif)

If you find that credible, then the first voluntary reaction, where the hand begins to change in a fist, would be Z225.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 22, 2018, 08:22:52 PM
Bullet through Connally ca. Z223
 
Bullet through Connally ca. Z271
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2nvv891.jpg)
Jacket billowing, right wrist or hat
dropped down. Facial reaction/"hat flip"
immediately after this animation
 
(http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg)
Do you see anything so compelling
in Mason's proposed area where
Connally was struck in torso and wrist?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)

Per Mason, Connally (not struck in torso and wrist until after the animation) merely shows concern for JFK. ( And possibly swatting away a fly with his hat )

Kennedy's hand-clench in Z224 could be consistent with how his hand would cup over the other during the motorcade.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/_/rsrc/1373308319398/misc/mason/slumpwitnesses/Z172ff-slump.png)
When Kennedy raises his right arm from the car-rail earlier in the Zapruder film, the hand is clenched-like (Z174). Likewise, lowering the right arm to cup over the other would cause the right hand to be clench-like.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdorableDifferentArmednylonshrimp-small.gif)  (https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DamagedLastingAiredale-small.gif)

If you find that credible, then the first voluntary reaction, where the hand begins to change in a fist, would be Z225.
I would suggest looking at the position of JFK's left elbow before he disappears behind the sign and comparing to the movement it makes after it reappears. As far as I can tell, it's in the same position at 224 as it was in 196. Then it moves up very abruptly, and very high.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 22, 2018, 08:43:28 PM
The only person that really could have known about when and what happened to JFK was his wife.  Her voice and opinion as a witness was never questioned.   Why not?   She was the only one that watched the whole scene unfold from behind the sign to after she tried to flee the car.  We note here reaction at Z340 at which point she notices the hole in her husband's head, 1.5 seconds after Z312.  That is an impossible reaction time when you see how quickly she tried to fllee the car immediately after.  I am sure she felt that having seen her husband hit twice, another bullet could miss and hit her at any moment.  She had about 6 seconds to digest the full impact of a first shot to the time that another serious one hit her husband at Z330.

Her testimony on how she saw the whole scene was never questioned.   It was ignored.   Did she not make some comments like "I want them to see what they have done to Jack" when Johnson was sworn in on the airplane and again when she saw him lying in the coffin that she said something like "That's not Jack!"    Was there ever a video interview done to ask her anything of her recollections of what she saw?   She was the most key witness to the event as she watched the whole event unfold at his side!
 In any real murder investigation,  her statement would never have NOT been taken.  I don't care if your husband was the POTUS or not and you just witnessed his death.   That makes it even more important to record her statement and is extremely suspicious. 
A simple question like "do you know of anyone that held a grudge against your husband or wanted to have him killed?"  and recording this is the first step in a real investigation involving foul play.    JC and his wife were allowed to give their testimony again and again and broadcast it.   It was like she was afraid to speak and never questioned about her eyewitness testimony.   Or rather THEY did not want her to speak! She had a clear view and certainly would have been able to tell you everything!   The failure to record this information is evidence that there was a cover up!  Then you have to ask "why the coverup"?     It is no different than trying to get an answer of tax returns for LHO or bank information to see where and who paid his bills - especially for his trips!
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Don Echols on September 22, 2018, 10:12:28 PM
Until the day he died Connally said he had not been shot by the same bullet. He should know,after all he was an hunter,but do go back,and watch,Zapruda film,do it in slow motion. Notice when Kennedy is hit Connally is turned looking at the president,then he is hit.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2018, 12:42:27 AM
Until the day he died Connally said he had not been shot by the same bullet. He should know,after all he was an hunter,but do go back,and watch,Zapruda film,do it in slow motion. Notice when Kennedy is hit Connally is turned looking at the president,then he is hit.

Did Connally say he saw the President get hit as he was looking at him? And then he, Connally, felt the impact of the second bullet?

I think --by most accounts-- he recalled that he heard the first shot, tried to turn back to see the President, failed, and had just gotten to looking forward when he felt the impact of the second bullet. The Governor would usually go by his wife's impression that Kennedy was reacting to being hit before she saw her husband get hit.

Connally is moving his face towards the front here ...
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/_/rsrc/1399757273788/mpi/z200-z249/z228.jpg)

The Governor is facing forward by Z228 and I think he's sensing something by then. His eyes might have turned a bit in his head in the Z220s and have been looking towards the front. So he could have been seeing frontwards and felt the impact of a shot by, say, Z225/226.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 23, 2018, 01:00:59 AM
Until the day he died Connally said he had not been shot by the same bullet. He should know,after all he was an hunter,but do go back,and watch,Zapruda film,do it in slow motion. Notice when Kennedy is hit Connally is turned looking at the president,then he is hit.
Connally repeatedly testified that he felt the bullet hit him when he was facing forward. In every version of hist testimony that I'm aware of (NBC/Agronsky, WC, TMWKK) he's the process of trying to turn to his left when he feels a bullet hit him.  If you want to use the Zapruder film to pinpoint a shot, you have to account for that turn to the left.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 01:23:16 AM
Connally repeatedly testified that he felt the bullet hit him when he was facing forward. In every version of hist testimony that I'm aware of (NBC/Agronsky, WC, TMWKK) he's the process of trying to turn to his left when he feels a bullet hit him.  If you want to use the Zapruder film to pinpoint a shot, you have to account for that turn to the left.
You are saying he must be right on that point.

In order to determine if he was right one has to look at all the evidence. Nellie said he was turned. He told Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right. Nellie said that she turned to look at JFK after the first shot and never looked back after the second shot. She is turned looking back at JFK until z268. Greer said that he turned around immediately after the second shot. He does not turn until z278-280. Over 40 witnesses gave evidence that the second and third shots were in rapid succession, closer together than 1 and 2, which puts the second shot well after z235, which is the last time JBC faced forward. So there is an awful lot of evidence that his recollection in April 1964 that he was facing forward when hit by the second shot was not correct.

It may be that he thought he was facing forward because he had turned as far to his right and saw that JFK had moved left and just decided to turn to his left when he was hit. So rather than an actual recollection of where he was facing, he was reconstructing it in his mind and thought he had turned because that is what he was trying to do. Once he was hit he was in shock and had other things on his mind.   



.
Title: Re: If CE399 didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 01:25:20 AM
This isn't difficult Tony, how could Connally be shot from behind without CE399 first passing through Kennedy?

JohnM

When you show via the evidence that CE 399 is relevant then we can discuss this.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 01:34:11 AM
The WC never showed that CE 399 was relevant or that it was discovered in the way that they claimed. Here are more details regarding the alleged discovery of the "magic bullet."

*************************************

There are actually several key points that make or break the Warren Commission?s (WC) claim of a lone assassin, but perhaps none shows it more clearly and concisely than the Single Bullet Theory (SBT).  The whole need for a SBT came about because the WC was limited to three shots by the assassin due to the time constraints offered by the Zapruder film. Using this film it was concluded that the assassin would have had roughly 5.6 seconds to fire at the motorcade and the cycling time of the Mannlicher-Carcano (M-C) was 2.3 seconds by the most experienced shooters, thus, the maximum number of shots that could be fired were three.

This is what both the FBI and Secret Service (SS) reported in their reports, and continue to report as they even scoff at the SBT as happening. Initially there were no problems with three shots though as the FBI and SS said the first shot hit President John F. Kennedy (JFK) in the back, the second hit Governor John B
Connally (JBC) in the back and the third hit JFK in the head.  This was neat and concise and worked for both of these organizations.  The fly in the ointment arose when a man by the name of James Tague came along however, and said he was wounded on the cheek by debris from a bullet hitting the concrete pavement/curb near him a the Triple Underpass area.  He was standing there watching the motorcade.  Hoover initially did what he did with a lot of evidence in this case -- he IGNORED him!!! He would not recognize him for many months, but finally this bullet had to be addressed.  Which one could have struck JFK or JBC and still traveled that far and struck the pavement/curb near Tague?  The WC came to the scary conclusion none could, thus they had a problem.  NOW they had to address 7 wounds in two men with just two bullets!!

Enter the SBT scenario.  This theory lacks any evidence and proof of its validity, yet the official government stance for 54 years has been this is what happened.  In a nutshell the WC said the following:

1) The first shot hit JFK in the back AND then exited JFK's throat and went on to enter JBC's back on the right side and exit his chest near the right nipple (in the meantime it broke the fifth rib and deflated his right lung) and then went on to smash his radius bone in his right wrist and then exit there and land in his left thigh leaving a superficial wound.

2) The second shot missed completely and landed near Tague and caused his wound.

3) The third shot hit JFK in the head while his head was in a position NOT one witness could be found to say it was in at the time of impact (they claimed his head was completely down to the point of his chin nearly touching his chest).  IN fact, there is NOT one picture or film that shows JFK's head in this position at the time of impact that I am aware of.

This post is NOT about the SBT though, but rather the bullet that was claimed to be the one that allowed the SBT to occur ? CE-399, a.k.a. ?The Magic Bullet.?  We can look at the SBT in full in other posts in this series.

The claimed ?magic bullet? was discovered by the senior engineer, Darrell Tomlinson, of Parkland Hospital.  He had been asked to manually operate the elevator that connected the ground-floor emergency rooms with the second-floor operating rooms. On one of these trips he would notice the bullet as it rolled out from under the edge of the mat it apparently had been under.

Who?s stretcher was this? For some time folks thought that it could have been JFK's, but evidence (via Nurse Bowron) shows that JFK?s stretcher was put in trauma room two at the same time it was discovered by Tomlinson, thus, it pretty much eliminates this possibility.  Most now accept the likelihood of it being found on the one that had contained two-year old Ronald Fuller. He had entered Parkland Hospital (PH) at 12:54 p.m. with a bad cut on his chin.

Let?s look at Darrell Tomlinson?s story.


*******************************************

The magical bullet (CE-399) is the key to the whole official conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO), acting alone, shot three times at the JFK and killed him and severely hurt JBC.  Without this bullet they have no case, period (not much of one with it either). So let's see how this bullet came into evidence.  Was it retrieved from either JFK or JBCs' bodies?  No.  Was it found within the mobile "crime scene", a.k.a. JFK's limousine?  No. Was it found by one of the doctors or nurses treating either the JFK or JBC?  No.  How was it then found you ask?  This is how the most vital piece of evidence in the government's case (minus the true nature of the wounds to the JFK's body) was "found".

JBC is rushed into Parkland Hospital and taken to trauma room 2, it is quickly assessed he needs surgery to save his life and treat the wounds he has received.  He is placed on a stretcher and then wheeled to an elevator for a ride to the second floor of the hospital.  Once JBC arrived on the second floor he is taken to an operating room, where he is transferred from the stretcher to the operating table.  You may ask, did they find CE-399 now?  No.  The stretcher is then placed in the hallway for use at a later time.

Darrell C. Tomlinson, the hospital's senior engineer, enters the elevator and then sees the stretcher and takes it to the ground floor via an elevator.  Tomlinson says he places the stretcher (the one presumably used for JBC by the WC, but NEVER shown to be) alongside another stretcher, which is against the wall.  Did Tomlinson see the bullet during the trip down to the ground floor?  No. After he puts the stretcher back against the wall following it being moved by an intern or doctor using the restroom he bumps the stretcher and then notices the bullet roll out from the mat.  This is the magic bullet.  Tomlinson will state he is not certain from which stretcher (really neither one was shown to have had anything to do with JBC) the bullet came from, but the WC will decide for him and say it was the one JBC had been on.  How do they know this when the man who was  right there didn't?  How do you think this "chain of custody" would have held up in court?

They then go on to make matters more confusing and open to conjecture by stating the bullet was not from JFK's stretcher, but from JBC's.  How did we get there?  Who said it was from the JFK's? It would make sense though based on Dr. Humes and the two FBI agents (O'Neill and Sibert) who learned that JFK had a non-penetrating wound and received cardiac massage on his stretcher.  It makes more sense to think the bullet fell out of the President than from JBC who was just transferred from the stretcher to the operating table (Hoover thought so in a call with LBJ).  But, as we have seen it is even more likely it came from Ronald Fuller?s stretcher.  The KEY point here is Tomlinson NEVER said it was from JBC?s stretcher and that was the WC?s conjecture.

Here is his testimony concerning this issue.


Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) I believe that's it.

Here Specter is saying the stretcher he brought down is marked ?A? (allegedly JBC?s), and the stretcher that was present before is marked ?B?. Remember these designations for later.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a general way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator.
.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.

Mr. SPECTER.And that was from which stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".

So we see Tomlinson is saying the cartridge was found on stretcher B, and this was the one that was already present when he was called to operate the elevator.  It was NOT the stretcher JBC had been on.  He will now describe stretcher ?B?s? appearance for us.

Of course Specter did NOT like this answer and quickly tried to confuse Tomlinson.


Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall.

As we will see shortly, Tomlinson could NOT even say stretcher "A" was from JBC as it was there when he arrived on the elevator.

Satisfied with this answer Specter went for the Coup de Grace, but FAILED!


Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.

Sneaky, sneaky!  See the sneaky trick Specter tried to play?  Again though, stretcher "A" could NOT be tied to JBC at all.

However, Tomlinson stuck to his guns and said it was ?B? the bullet came off of, NOT ?A? that allegedly had JBC on it a little while earlier. Here is how Tomlinson described ?B? for us:


Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.

Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what?

Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so.

This description matches the injury suffered by Ronald Fuller much better as the young boy had cut his chin on a piece of broken soda pop bottle and had his chin sutured.  Gauze packets were also used on him.

Despite Tomlinson?s firmness in saying the bullet was found on stretcher ?B? Specter kept on trying to confuse him. They went over how Tomlinson had been interviewed once by both the FBI and the SS in the latter part of November and early December of 1963. Specter made him say numerous times that he had said to the FBI and SS that he could NOT be sure which stretcher was ?A? and which was ?B?.  Again, Specter tries to bully Tomlinson into saying it was stretcher ?A? the bullet came from.


Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator---I called that to your attention, didn't I?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No it really doesn't---it really doesn't.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was---that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

As I have said many times, a defense attorney would have interjected here.  This is clearly badgering the witness.  Despite LHO?s Constitutional rights being denied this witness still held his ground. Also, since they could NOT show stretcher "A" was connected to JBC in anyway this is all meaningless anyway!

Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling him definitely-I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know where---

Mr. TOMLINSON. (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that---whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A---I'm not really sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Since "A" was NOT tied to JBC as you will see shortly all this is akin to running around after your own tail!

And then Tomlinson gets his Coup de Grace in!  Successfully too!


Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that's the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either.

I.E. he was NOT going to LIE to benefit the WC?s conclusion!  As he said before the stretcher on the elevator may NOT have even been JBC?s as the WC kept claiming!

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found on the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could have come from three, it could have come from some other place.

Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off.

Again, for the umpteenth time we see the WC made a connection ?stretcher ?A? was JBC?s?when there was NO way to show this was true as the man who found it on the elevator had NO way of knowing where it came from! This was the WC's typical strategy and shows LHO was the patsy as he claimed to me.

We also have some other intriguing things to consider.  Like these:


* At 1:25 p.m. the SS are trying to remove the body from Parkland for the journey to D.C. and when Kellerman asks the judge present to sign-off he is told by the judge that he must get permission from D.A. Wade.  Henry Wade and Chief Curry give the following advice: "Do not release the body until the missile is taken into custody."  This comment has given researchers much dilemma over the years, as they are not sure what "missile" they could be talking about as the CE-399 bullet is NOT found until 1:45 p.m. How did Wade know a bullet would be found?

* In addition to the one Tomlinson found, which he stated repeatedly was NOT the one the WC presented as CE-399 (he said a POINTY-NOSE bullet had been found), TWO other bullets were found as well. Elizabeth Goode Wright, director of nursing at Parkland, told researcher Wallace Millam in 1993 that her husband, O.P. Wright (director of security) found TWO bullets on 11/22/63. He handled the "magic bullet" before the Secret Service received it, but he also found a unfired, "whole" .38 with manufacturer's case markings ".38 SP WCC" -- the very same markings as 2 of the 4 shell casings allegedly retrieved from the Tippit scene and supposedly matched to the pistol found on LHO at the time of his arrest.

This was found on a hospital gurney and Wright did  NOT turn it over to the authorities, and he showed it to Millam during the interview.  To me, this is further proof of the frame being placed on LHO, as they planted a bullet matching the pistol he would allegedly be found with as well.  Can the WC defenders explain this?

* SS Agent Richard Johnsen was given the bullet by O.P. Wright.  He was NEVER called before the WC.  Why?  Well, in later interviews with researchers he too said CE-399 was NOT the bullet he was given and that he sent on to Washington! Johnsen, NEVER initialed CE-399 (or more likely, he initialed the actual one found), thus, this broke the chain of custody! (CE-2011/ 24H412)
 
* Chief James J. Rowley of the SS failed to ID CE-399 as the bullet he saw on 11/22/63. CE-399 and it also lacks his initials on it. (CE-2011/ 24H412)

* Although the bullet was "officially" found on a stretcher in a corridor of Parkland Hospital, the FBI (Sibert and O'Neil) reported that it was found in the emergency room! (CD-7)

All this shows us is that there is NO connection between any stretcher and JBC as claimed by the WC. It also shows us the bullet found, and touched and seen by quite a few people, is NOT the one in evidence to this day.  IF Ruby did plant a bullet (could he have been the intern or doctor seen by Tomlinson?) it was NOT a 6.5 mm round as NO one could be found to say CE-399 was the bullet found at PH. This means the bullet was CHANGED while in CUSTODY OF THE AUTHORITIES.  Furthermore, there is NO chain of custody for the bullet in evidence as it lacks the initials of those who sent it in. 

I also did not get into it, but both the WC and HSCA ignored those that were involved to again interview a man who was NOT involved (Behn)! Does this make any sense? ONLY if you are trying to hide something.  The single most important piece of evidence for the WC has NO link to LHO as the rifle in question is NOT tied to him by evidence, it has NO link to the victims NOR any link to the PH discovery! IT is basically worthless.

Once again we see that the claims of the WC are not supported by the actual evidence, thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 01:44:48 AM
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).
They are reacting at the same time, although if his clenched hand positions are part of his reaction it seems that JFK's reaction had already begun prior to z224.  If so, their reactions did not begin simultaneously. The evidence of JBC and Nellie was that JFK and JBC did react at the same time that way - to the first shot.

Quote
The jacket appears to move. That is all you can say. His right arm and hand and hat is also moving. Maybe there was a connection.

It looks to me like Connally's jacket is bulging out and I see where you are going with the arm movement so as an experiment I put on a couple of different suits and flung my arms around and really couldn't duplicate it, perhaps someone else can?

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8v-YQb6mFo0/WVXcxF5rw4I/AAAAAAABMJE/Ge6Ef1RgHQkDioCxaoghpM0Npv6-xgpIACLcBGAs/s1600/Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-94Smfj5-wQ4/UolSwlgbXNI/AAAAAAAAw1w/2t04L3GlQPY/s530/110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif)

Quote
Right. That is consistent with a bullet striking JFK from and JBC reacting to hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot because he wanted to turn around to see how JFK was (which he then proceeds to do).

The bullet and the sound don't arrive at the same time, wouldn't the sound be about 2-3 Zapruder frames behind the bullet?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 01:57:36 AM
The WC never showed that CE 399 was relevant or that it was discovered in the way that they claimed. Here are more details regarding the alleged discovery of the "magic bullet."

-------------snip--------------

Once again we see that the claims of the WC are not supported by the actual evidence, thus, their conclusion is sunk again.[/b]

Stop SPAMMING my thread, your wall of words has zero to do with the OP, either answer the question or move along.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 02:22:03 AM
Stop SPAMMING my thread, your wall of words has zero to do with the OP, either answer the question or move along.

JohnM

Only a LNer would equate a post utilizing evidence with spam. That says it all. This poster is NOT here to discuss the actual evidence.

By the way, this is relevant as it shows that CE 399 wasn't relevant. You're just playing games.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 02:28:27 AM
Only a LNer would equate a post utilizing evidence with spam. That says it all. This poster is NOT here to discuss the actual evidence.

By the way, this is relevant as it shows that CE 399 wasn't relevant. You're just playing games.

Quote
Only a LNer would equate a post utilizing evidence with spam.

When your post is totally off topic and takes ages to scroll through then yes that's the very definition of spam.

Quote
That says it all.

It's not a war, settle down.

Quote
This poster is NOT here to discuss the actual evidence.

Go look at my posts in this thread and see a plethora of images and neat stuff whereas again you spam with crap and don't address the topic.
You think you run the place!

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 02:34:28 AM
When did l claim that CE 399 was a planted bullet Howard? That accusation is straight out of what David Von Pein used to do when arguing about the SBT  ;D

Arlen speculated that CE 399 was found on JC's stretcher despite Tomlinson being unsure. .

The onus is on you to prove that CE 399 went through JFK.

Enlighten us with your SBT facts Howard, not your speculative and unproven opinions.

You want me to quote what Lieutenant Colonel Pierre A. Finck, M.D. MC, USA: Chief of the military environmental pathology division and chief of the wound ballistics pathology branch at Walter Reed Medical Center said should have been done in regards to JFK's upper back wound but was at a loss as to why it wasn't done?

You should be demanding answers from those that could of easily provided them back in 1963, Howard.

Tony, if you don't think that 399 was planted, then why link to an article about 'identification issues' about 399 ?

Cards on the table, do you think 399 was planted or not ?

Either way, take a crack at explaining the shooting sequence and wounds to both men and explaining where the bullets that caused their wounds went. You can include CE399 being planted or not being planted, your choice, in your alternative to the SBF.

Take a crack at explaining what caused the damage to the limo and Tague's wound.

Instead of telling me that I should be demanding answers from the people there in 1963, why not try answering the questions I posed to you in this conversation in 2018 ?

You asked me what I thought accounted for the limo damage and Tague's wound, I answered.

You asked me to try to prove that a bullet (399 or another bullet) passed through JFK and I responded. I actually think the question of whether a bullet passed through JFK is a silly one because it should be obvious that since no bullet was found in JFK's neck then it MUST have passed through him.

Time for you to start answering some questions.

What do you propose caused the damage to the limo ?

What do you propose caused Tague's wound ?

Was CE399 planted ?

If it wasn't planted, then you need to try explaining how a bullet fired from C2766 was discovered in Parkland. Or if you're going to claim CE399 was substituted for the actual bullet Tomlinson found, how on earth would the conspirators know that Tomlinson was going to find a bullet ? Was Tomlinson a conspirator too ?  Most importantly, since the conspirators would have no way of knowing whether a bullet was found in JBC or not, then explain why would they even consider planting a bullet to explain his wounds.

Where did the separate bullets that you insist caused JFK's and JBC's wounds go
?

Ball is in your court.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 02:37:52 AM
When your post is totally off topic and takes ages to scroll through then yes that's the very definition of spam.

It's not a war, settle down.

Go look at my posts in this thread and see a plethora of images and neat stuff whereas again you spam with crap and don't address the topic.
You think you run the place!

JohnM

Your misinformation photos are the real spam. I get the the purpose of the thread. I am showing that CE 399 is not relevant. So how do you clain LHO committed this crime again?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 02:42:50 AM
It looks to me like Connally's jacket is bulging out and I see where you are going with the arm movement so as an experiment I put on a couple of different suits and flung my arms around and really couldn't duplicate it, perhaps someone else can?
The jacket appears to be buttoned. In z222 the jacket is closed and looks much the same as in z224. The jacket moves as he moves his right arm exposing more white shirt briefly in 223. If the hat catches the jacket as it moves from front to side that could explain that. 
Quote

The bullet and the sound don't arrive at the same time, wouldn't the sound be about 2-3 Zapruder frames behind the bullet?
At that point the car is about 200 feet from the SN.  Sound travels 1127 feet per second. The bullet travels 2000 fps. Bullet strikes 100 ms after firing. Sound arrives about 177 ms after, or about 1.5 frames (77 ms) after the bullet strikes.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 03:04:32 AM
At that point the car is about 200 feet from the SN.  Sound travels 1127 feet per second. The bullet travels 2000 fps. Bullet strikes 100 ms after firing. Sound arrives about 177 ms after, or about 1.5 frames (77 ms) after the bullet strikes.

Yeah you're right, thanks. So a couple of frames after Kennedy was hit at Z223, Connally would hear the shot at Z225?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 03:24:37 AM
When your post is totally off topic and takes ages to scroll through then yes that's the very definition of spam.

Go look at my posts in this thread and see a plethora of images and neat stuff whereas again you spam with crap and don't address the topic.
You think you run the place!

JohnM

 Thumb1:

Caprio apparently doesn't understand what a pain the butt it is to scroll past his page long diatribes.

Not surprising. He still doesn't understand why page after page of links to his series were removed in order to make the forum more readable.

But what can you expect from a guy that can't determine what year a death occurred in even after being shown a gravestone, death certificate and newspaper article proving beyond any doubt precisely when the death occurred.

 :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 03:29:12 AM

But what can you expect from a guy that can't determine what year a death occurred in even after being shown a gravestone, death certificate and newspaper article proving beyond any doubt precisely when the death occurred.

 :D

Caprio also thinks that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswald's pubic hairs are fake.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 05:07:27 AM
Yeah you're right, thanks. So a couple of frames after Kennedy was hit at Z223, Connally would hear the shot at Z225?
Well, he would have heard it less than 2 frames after the bullet struck JFK. The evidence is pretty consistent that it was the first shot that struck JFK. The first shot definitely occurred before z223. The last two were closer together and in rapid successsion. I can't tell by just looking at the zfilm when the shots occurred. The evidence indicates that JFK in z223 is reacting to being hitby the first shot that occurred before z202.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2018, 05:15:12 AM
You are saying he must be right on that point.

In order to determine if he was right one has to look at all the evidence. Nellie said he was turned. He told Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right. Nellie said that she turned to look at JFK after the first shot and never looked back after the second shot. She is turned looking back at JFK until z268.

Where Nellie is looking ...

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z236.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z244.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z247.jpg)
Towards Governor
 
Same
 
Same
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z254.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z258.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z262.jpg)
Towards Governor
 
Towards Kennedy
 
Same
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z272.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z280.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z284.jpg)
Towards Governor
 
Same
 
Towards Kennedy
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z288.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z294.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z297.jpg)
Towards Kennedy
 
Towards Governor
 
Same
Seems more focused on the Governor. And her two brief looks backward could have been towards the Secret Service agents, as if trying to get them to do something.

The SBT scenario would have her looking at Kennedy just after the first shot (she's already turned her head enough, beginning in the Z270s, to see Kennedy in the Willis05 photo, with both eyes turned rightward). She said (at least once) that she was still looking at Kennedy when she heard the second shot. Arguably she's still turned enough to see Kennedy in the Z220s.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z223.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z230.jpg)

Quote
Greer said that he turned around immediately after the second shot. He does not turn until z278-280.

The problem is that we can't tell clearly where Greer's head is facing in earlier frames, or if his head is turned enough so his eyes turned rightward could see into the back.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z232.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z242.jpg)
 
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z247.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z250-z299/z253.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 06:10:18 AM
Well, he would have heard it less than 2 frames after the bullet struck JFK. The evidence is pretty consistent that it was the first shot that struck JFK. The first shot definitely occurred before z223. The last two were closer together and in rapid successsion. I can't tell by just looking at the zfilm when the shots occurred. The evidence indicates that JFK in z223 is reacting to being hitby the first shot that occurred before z202.

If the bullet struck both men at Z223 then a split second before Connally heard the shot Zapruder's camera would have snapped Z225 and imo Z225 would be too early to see any movement in Connally from the rifle sound.

The following Gif is Z frames from Z222-225 centered on Connally and I'm seeing Connally's torso dramatically twisting and Connally jacket reacting and all this is before Connally has time to react to hearing a shot at Z223. And also consider Kellerman who is just sitting there motionless as compared to Connally.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHQbLbtB/z222_z225.gif)

We know Zapruder heard the headshot and if we take a look at the frames following the headshot we see a sharp vertical reaction at the time Zapruder would have heard and then react to a rifle sound.

(https://i.postimg.cc/05HrQ6sv/z317z318_r.gif)

Then we can go back and see if we can find any other sharp vertical movements and in the same timeframe after both men appear to be shot, Zapruder does a similar reaction that can be observed at the headshot.

(https://i.postimg.cc/15nXN9mq/z226z227.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 23, 2018, 07:35:21 AM
Where Nellie is looking ...

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z236.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z244.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z247.jpg)
Towards Governor
 
Same
 
Same
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z254.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z258.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z262.jpg)
Towards Governor
 
Towards Kennedy
 
Same
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z272.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z280.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z284.jpg)
Towards Governor
 
Same
 
Towards Kennedy
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z288.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z294.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z250-z299/z297.jpg)
Towards Kennedy
 
Towards Governor
 
Same
Seems more focused on the Governor. And her two brief looks backward could have been towards the Secret Service agents, as if trying to get them to do something.

The SBT scenario would have her looking at Kennedy just after the first shot (she's already turned her head enough, beginning in the Z270s, to see Kennedy in the Willis05 photo, with both eyes turned rightward). She said (at least once) that she was still looking at Kennedy when she heard the second shot. Arguably she's still turned enough to see Kennedy in the Z220s.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z223.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z230.jpg)


I would interpret Nellie's head movement from swinging her head around from gazing at the 2 mystery men at Z220 over to staring at the Governor and by Z259 assessing the damage of the President.    My original theory was that the umbrella man  was being used as a distraction to attract Connally and JFK's attention while the mystery man on Jacqueline's side pulled the trigger.  He is visible on your shown frame at Z236.  A partially rolled up window offers protection for Nellie who is keeping to the front of her seat.  The plank seat on which JFK and Jacqueline were on was in an elevated position at the time to allow a shot to come in from the LHS.   You can see the clapping motion of the mystery man turns into a rapid behind the back move. Those 2 are not standing side by side but one behind the other.  It certainly looks like a black object is in the front man's hand as it goes behind his back.   The plank seat was then lowered causing JFK to be moved lower, inferring that no bullets could have come from the side with the partially raised side window.

Connally being shot remains a large mystery.  There is no testimonial evidence from Nellie or him that matches even closely to what is seen on the Zapruder Frames.   Nellie by Z342 is in motion to move down to Kennedy's legs, well behind JC.  JC takes one last look back at Z394 to make sure the President is dead.   You can't mistake his face looking back! How badly was he really hurt?  As I said her testimony is bogus and the recollection of events from her point of view can't be farther than the truth.  She says she held her hand over his gaping chest wound (indicated center) in order to seal the "sucking" wound!

It is really too bad that Jacqueline couldn't have spoken the truth and made statements - but she kept quiet for the sake of the country.  A coup d'etat -an inside job would have exposed a very large corruption ring and pushed the country at that time into turmoil - that couldn't happen.  I just wonder if Trump will be allowed to follow through with his unmasking.  The POTUS position is an old boy's club and if you aren't one of the Bush's or in the Bill Clinton camp, you are not to be sworn in as President!  At the very least you should be Skull & Bones to occupy such a position of prominence.

As I indicated before, the film editing isn't really that great and you can pick up where pieces were spliced in over heads on JC or obscured.  JC really was below the line of fire when Z330 shot came through the windshield and so was the front SS agent.   No one ever investigated the hit man rolling in the grass - a sure shot from that close - so sad! 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 08:25:15 AM
If the bullet struck both men at Z223 then a split second before Connally heard the shot Zapruder's camera would have snapped Z225 and imo Z225 would be too early to see any movement in Connally from the rifle sound.
Quite right. If JFK was hit by a bullet at z223, JBC's reaction at z225 could not be to the sound of it.

But that could also mean is that the shot that JFK is reacting to at z223 was prior to z223.  There is a great deal of evidence that the first shot struck JFK in the neck and that it was just after z186 and before z202.

Quote
The following Gif is Z frames from Z222-225 centered on Connally and I'm seeing Connally's torso dramatically twisting and Connally jacket reacting and all this is before Connally has time to react to hearing a shot at Z223. And also consider Kellerman who is just sitting there motionless as compared to Connally.
Again, you are assuming JFK was hit at z223. There is too much evidence that conflicts with that scenario.
Quote
We know Zapruder heard the headshot and if we take a look at the frames following the headshot we see a sharp vertical reaction at the time Zapruder would have heard and then react to a rifle sound.

Then we can go back and see if we can find any other sharp vertical movements and in the same timeframe after both men appear to be shot, Zapruder does a similar reaction that can be observed at the headshot.
Jiggle analysis is interesting but it has never been shown to be accurate in identifying shots. There are many more than 3 places where there are panning errors and jiggles.

Besides, I think you are reading too much into the difference between the two frames. He is moving the camera and the car is moving. Unless he is panning in a direction that perfectly matches the car, there is going to be a difference between frames of the car's position.

If you want to convince someone that there was an early missed shot and a second shot at z223, I would suggest that you could start by trying to find a reason not only why there is no evidence that JFK smiled and waved after the first shot (for 3 seconds, you say) but why there is so much evidence that he didn't - that he moved to the left with a blank look and moved his hands to his neck/chest.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 11:17:12 AM
I personally do not believe CE 399 was "planted".

The damage to the windshield and the windshield chrome strip of the limo came from bullet lead, likely from the bullet that shattered JFK's head  at Z312/Z313.


I do believe we are making some progress here.

Since you don't believe 399 was planted, then how do you suppose it was found at Parkland ?

It certainly didn't fall off of JFK's gurney as that gurney was still in the trauma room that JFK was cooling off on.

Therefore, we know by the process of elimination that 399 must have been the bullet that wounded JBC. How else could it have gotten there ?

That wasn't hard was it ?

Now, let's deal with JFK's back/throat wound.

Since we know that no bullet was found in JFK's neck, we know that the throat wound had to be an exit wound.

We know this by the process of elimination. Since there is no exit wound for a bullet entering JFK's throat, and no bullet found in his neck, the inescapable conclusion is that the bullet which struck him in the back had to have exited through his throat, causing that wound.

This isn't speculation, it's fact.

So now we have established that a bullet entered JFK's back, passed through him, and exited his throat.

Next, we must ask what happened to the bullet that passed throught JFK.

Since there is no bullet found in the limo, we must conclude that the bullet that passed through JFK, went on to wound JBC, and was the one recovered at Parkland, CE399.

How else could it have happened ?

As I've said before, the application of a little common sense and logical deductive reasoning is all that's necessary to arrive at the SINGLE BULLET FACT.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 23, 2018, 01:48:58 PM
You can not make that deduction in regards to CE 399 going through JFK. The bullet that penetrated JFK in his upper back was not tracked by dissection of the neck organs. That's a fact. The evidence from physical examination of JFK by the prosectors, and witnessed by two FBI agents, pointed to a shallow wound of entrance. The use of a metal probe failed to penetrate beyond the shallow wound despite JFK's lungs being removed. The bullet that struck JFK in his upper back could well have been "defective" and had less powder to propel the bullet at full velocity or it hit something in line with the trajectory to sufficiently slow it down.

JFK was given cardiac massage and it was possible that the bullet had dislodged without anyone noticing it as he never was turned over at Parklands.

Dr. CARRICO. As we said initially this was an acute emergency situation and there was not time initially and when the cardiac massage was done this prevented any further examination during this time this was being done. After the President was pronounced dead his wife was there, he was the President, and we felt certainly that complete examination would be carried out and no one had the heart, I believe, to examine him then.

Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.

Did anyone go through the bloodied sheets to search for a spent bullet? Anyone check the casket?

No metal was found on the front of JFK's clothing, yet copper was found on the back of the jacket and shirt.

Then, we have Kellerman - you know where l am about to go with this?

You don't need the SBT at all  - three shots, three hits. One non-penetrating.

So how did the lead fragments end up in JC's wrist and thigh?

The SBT is certainly no fact and that's why the WC left it at that.

The identity of the gunman who actually did the firing and from where is still unknown.

When the bullet struck JFK's head and shattered can you account for every bullet fragment and where they went?

Max Holland believes somewhere in dealey plaza there is a lost FMJ bullet. Why did it have to be "lost" in Dealey Plaza?

As you know, people react differently to being struck by a bullet.

What Arlen did in asking the Drs such leading and loaded questions was amateurish at best.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hypothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately 100 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?

From the above what do you think was actually proved?

Speaking of maximum speculation. All very interesting. Nonsense but interesting someone could come up with this BS.

How do you aim and fire a gun in which the bullet only ends up penetrating several inches? What is it, lack of powder in the cartridge? Some form of dud? If this is the case then the bullet would have hit the SS car or the street behind them. Do you aim really high because the bullet has no energy behind it. Do you just throw it by hand and hope it hits?

Still left with the question of how was JBC wounded if the bullet does not pass through JFK first. Seems you have proven that is the only answer there is.

Speaking of Kellerman, his second shot was the head shot, maybe you didn't know that:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Not before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 02:47:28 PM
You can not make that deduction in regards to CE 399 going through JFK. The bullet that penetrated JFK in his upper back was not tracked by dissection of the neck organs. That's a fact. The evidence from physical examination of JFK by the prosectors, and witnessed by two FBI agents, pointed to a shallow wound of entrance. The use of a metal probe failed to penetrate beyond the shallow wound despite JFK's lungs being removed. The bullet that struck JFK in his upper back could well have been "defective" and had less powder to propel the bullet at full velocity or it hit something in line with the trajectory to sufficiently slow it down.

JFK was given cardiac massage and it was possible that the bullet had dislodged without anyone noticing it as he never was turned over at Parklands.


Sorry Tony, but you're making this much more complicated than it really is, hence your confusion. Try to stay focused and follow along.

We know the bullet that hit JFK in the back didn't fall out during cardiac massage and go undiscovered in his casket or in sheets at Parkland, here's why;

We can definitively prove the bullet that entered his back had to exit his throat by the process of elimination.

Once again, since there is no exit wound for a bullet that would have entered JFK's throat and no bullet was found in his neck we must conclude that the throat wound was an exit wound.

Let that sink in.

Anterior throat entry is impossible because there is no exit wound for a frontal entry throat shot and no bullet found in the neck.

You're not going to seriously postulate that a bullet entered JFK's throat and fell out during cardiac massage too, are you ?

Sorry, but we absolutely CAN deduce that 399 transited JFK.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 03:14:23 PM
I do believe we are making some progress here.

Since you don't believe 399 was planted, then how do you suppose it was found at Parkland ?

It certainly didn't fall off of JFK's gurney as that gurney was still in the trauma room that JFK was cooling off on.

Therefore, we know by the process of elimination that 399 must have been the bullet that wounded JBC. How else could it have gotten there ?
CE399 was a bullet that wounded JBC.  But that does not necessarily mean it caused all his wounds. It is possible, if not probable, his wounds were caused by separate bullets.

Quote
Now, let's deal with JFK's back/throat wound.

Since we know that no bullet was found in JFK's neck, we know that the throat wound had to be an exit wound.

We know this by the process of elimination. Since there is no exit wound for a bullet entering JFK's throat, and no bullet found in his neck, the inescapable conclusion is that the bullet which struck him in the back had to have exited through his throat, causing that wound.

This isn't speculation, it's fact.

So now we have established that a bullet entered JFK's back, passed through him, and exited his throat.

Next, we must ask what happened to the bullet that passed throught JFK.

Since there is no bullet found in the limo, we must conclude that the bullet that passed through JFK, went on to wound JBC, and was the one recovered at Parkland, CE399.

How else could it have happened ?

As I've said before, the application of a little common sense and logical deductive reasoning is all that's necessary to arrive at the SINGLE BULLET FACT.
Logic alone does not solve facts. Evidence helps. 

The evidence is very consistent that JFK was struck in the back/neck on the first shot and JBC was struck in the back on the second. JBC never realized that he was struck in the thigh or the wrist until the next day.  It is not uncommon for people to be hit by bullets and not realize it. The trajectory through JFK's neck goes to JBC's left.  There was only one wound on JBC's left side. The wound characteristics of the thigh wound are consistent with the condition of CE399 if it struck butt-first.  For some unknown reason, no one has ever even considered that possibility, let alone rejected it. 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 03:41:27 PM
The evidence is very consistent that JFK was struck in the back/neck on the first shot and JBC was struck in the back on the second.

Nonsense. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and second shot ? How many shots do you have being fired ?

But for the sake of argument let's assume this preposterous suggestion that JFK is hit by the first shot and then JBC is hit by the second shot several seconds later (even though the Zap film clearly shows that both men are wounded simultaneously or in extremely close proxmity), is correct.

What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 23, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Nonsense. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and second shot ? How many shots do you have being fired ?

But for the sake of argument let's assume this preposterous suggestion that JFK is hit by the first shot and then JBC is hit by the second shot several seconds later (even though the Zap film clearly shows that both men are wounded simultaneously or in extremely close proxmity), is correct.
No good assuming something which you can't prove.
Quote
What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?

Prove that the bullet hit JFK in the back and exited his throat.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
No good assuming something which you can't prove.
Prove that the bullet hit JFK in the back and exited his throat.

Already did that, Ray. Read my posts above.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2018, 04:50:02 PM
CE399 was a bullet that wounded JBC.  But that does not necessarily mean it caused all his wounds. It is possible, if not probable, his wounds were caused by separate bullets.

Andrew is holding off on his "Big Reveal". He has a theory that he baits people with by saying LNers don't need the SBT (the SBT is Mason's b?te noire).

Quote
Logic alone does not solve facts. Evidence helps. 

When it comes to his theory, Mason casts off all logic and evidence. Basically, he contents that the first shot occurred about Z197-Z200 (it varies). This bullet transited the President's neck and then emerged from the throat to bypass the left side of Connally's torso and embed itself into Connally's thigh. This should answer Howard Gee's question to Mason: "What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?"

(http://i66.tinypic.com/35c3ixi.jpg)
Mason's SketchUp treatment of first-shot
trajectory through JFK neck and into JBC
thigh; and my overlay of positions

Quote
The evidence is very consistent that JFK was struck in the back/neck on the first shot and JBC was struck in the back on the second. JBC never realized that he was struck in the thigh or the wrist until the next day.  It is not uncommon for people to be hit by bullets and not realize it.

Connally's unaware that he's been hit in the thigh. Andrew even has ballistics studies that supposedly show a bullet passing through soft tissue similar to Kennedy's neck would have slowed enough that it couldn't have passed through the thigh or break a bone there. And he's got a few examples of people who were shot who didn't know it until later. Apples and oranges.

Quote
The trajectory through JFK's neck goes to JBC's left.  There was only one wound on JBC's left side. The wound characteristics of the thigh wound are consistent with the condition of CE399 if it struck butt-first.  For some unknown reason, no one has ever even considered that possibility, let alone rejected it.

We've been considering your moonbat-crazy theory for years. And aggressively rejecting it. Pretend all you want.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Gary Craig on September 23, 2018, 05:02:44 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz.jpg)
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz1.jpg)
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz3.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz4.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz5.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shotz6.jpg)
~snip~
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 05:06:21 PM
Who said it had exited? No one proved that the upper back wound was connected to the wound in the throat.

I proved it in my posts above.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2018, 06:06:55 PM
Vincent Salandria (author of "Commission Exhibit 399 - The Bullet" which Craig just posted) proposed a "292 hit hypothesis" in his essay "The Separate Connally Shot"; excerpts follow:

     A verbal description of our observations on the applicable Zapruder frames is presented:
     Our 292 hit hypothesis, we think, deserves serious investigation.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 07:53:33 PM
Nonsense. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and second shot ? How many shots do you have being fired ?
It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what people who were there recalled. They recalled that the last two were in rapid succession. They recalled a pattern to to shots: the time between 2 and 3 was noticeably shorter than between 1 and 2. That necessarily means that there was only one shot before z250 , which is well after JFK began showing reaction to his throat wound.
Quote
 
But for the sake of argument let's assume this preposterous suggestion that JFK is hit by the first shot and then JBC is hit by the second shot several seconds later (even though the Zap film clearly shows that both men are wounded simultaneously or in extremely close proxmity), is correct.
Why is it preposterous? How do you explain the evidence from many independent sources that JFK reacted to the first shot? Why did no one see JFK smile and wave for 3 seconds after the first shot?
Quote
What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?
You tell me. All I can say is that it was travelling on a downward and right to left trajectory through JFK's neck exiting to the left of his tie knot, likely traveling straight but tumbling at about 1000 to 1500 feet per second. It would have travelled another 5 inches farther left before crossing the plane of JBC's seatback. This was well to the left of JBC'right armpit. Since it does not appear to have struck the car and it did not strike JFK's hands, it must have hit JBC. The question is where?. All I can say is that it was not his right armpit.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 23, 2018, 08:21:12 PM
Already did that, Ray. Read my posts above.

You wrote "This isn't speculation, it's fact."

It isn't fact. It is speculation. Absence of the bullet doesn't mean a bullet wasn't found. You cannot prove that a bullet wasn't retrieved.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 09:22:20 PM
It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what people who were there recalled. They recalled that the last two were in rapid succession. They recalled a pattern to to shots: the time between 2 and 3 was noticeably shorter than between 1 and 2. That necessarily means that there was only one shot before z250 , which is well after JFK began showing reaction to his throat wound. Why is it preposterous? How do you explain the evidence from many independent sources that JFK reacted to the first shot? Why did no one see JFK smile and wave for 3 seconds after the first shot?You tell me. All I can say is that it was travelling on a downward and right to left trajectory through JFK's neck exiting to the left of his tie knot, likely traveling straight but tumbling at about 1000 to 1500 feet per second. It would have travelled another 5 inches farther left before crossing the plane of JBC's seatback. This was well to the left of JBC'right armpit. Since it does not appear to have struck the car and it did not strike JFK's hands, it must have hit JBC. The question is where?. All I can say is that it was not his right armpit.

Didn't you just say that JFK was hit by the first shot and JBC the second ?

When (what Z frame) do you have the first shot hitting JFK and what frame do you claim JBC is hit by the second ?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 09:39:39 PM
Are you seriously claiming that JFK's only reaction to having a bullet enter his back, go through his neck and exit from his throat is to 'stop smiling and waving' ?

Really ?

And that JBC sat there not reacting at all to a bullet entering his thigh ?

Seriously ?

 ::) :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 23, 2018, 09:46:30 PM
You wrote "This isn't speculation, it's fact."

It isn't fact. It is speculation. Absence of the bullet doesn't mean a bullet wasn't found. You cannot prove that a bullet wasn't retrieved.

So your version of the assassination has a bullet being recovered from JFK's throat ?

 :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 10:26:33 PM
Thumb1:

Caprio apparently doesn't understand what a pain the butt it is to scroll past his page long diatribes.

Not surprising. He still doesn't understand why page after page of links to his series were removed in order to make the forum more readable.

But what can you expect from a guy that can't determine what year a death occurred in even after being shown a gravestone, death certificate and newspaper article proving beyond any doubt precisely when the death occurred.

 :D

You heard it folks. To Gee the actual evidence is a "pain in the butt." I guess so when it shows that all the claims by the WC are false.

Why do you support false claims Gee?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 10:28:17 PM
Caprio also thinks that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswald's pubic hairs are fake.

JohnM

Quote me saying either statement. Failure to do so will again demonstrate that you are a dishonest person.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 23, 2018, 10:34:25 PM
So your version of the assassination has a bullet being recovered from JFK's throat ?

 :D


You don't know, so your laughs are rather hollow, Howard.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 23, 2018, 10:37:14 PM
It has been shown that the SBT is impossible in many different ways, therefore, how can the LNers support the WC's claim that LHO committed the crime?

From what I have observed over many years they can't. That means they support a false claim. Why?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 23, 2018, 10:39:01 PM
It has been shown that the SBT is impossible in many different ways, therefore, how can the LNers support the WC's claim that LHO committed the crime?

From what I have observed over many years they can't. That means they support a false claim. Why?

Following the official line, Rob.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 10:48:36 PM
Quote me saying either statement. Failure to do so will again demonstrate that you are a dishonest person.

Good, so you believe that Ruby actually killed Ruby and the pubic hairs in evidence belong to Oswald, just like a WC supporter, nice!

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 10:49:46 PM
Didn't you just say that JFK was hit by the first shot and JBC the second ?

When (what Z frame) do you have the first shot hitting JFK and what frame do you claim JBC is hit by the second ?
JBC was hit by the second shot in the back/armpit but the evidence is that a fragment from this bullet struck the windshield, windshield frame and sunvisor and another struck Tague, so it did not cause the left thigh wound which had the characteristics of being struck by the butt end of an intact bullet. So, that means he was also struck by another bullet. The evidence is very consistent that JFK was hit on the first shot. That bullet went to the left of JBC's midline and did not strike the car inside. What does that tell you?

To determine when the second shot occurred study the evidence. It was, according to Greer, just before he turned around and saw JBC falling back. According to Altgens it was after he took his z256 photo. According to Nellie it was after she stopped looking back at JFK. According to about 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between shots 1 and 3. According to Hickey it occurred when JFK's hair on the right side flew up.  You should be able to figure it out from that.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2018, 10:54:10 PM
According to Hickey and, perhaps, Kinney, JFK's hair on the right side flew up at the time of the second shot.   You will notice JBC start sailing forward immediately after z272.  JFK's hair flies up from z273-276.

Hickey is seated on the backseat of the Queen Mary limousine and facing backward in the Altgens photo, taken at Z255. He has to turn around, locate Kennedy and observe a hair flip by Z273 (one second). Also, I don't believe the area where Kennedy's hair fluffs up in Z272 is observable to where Hickey is sitting. And that same piece of hair fluffs Z268-269.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h8KVxdCLtyE/Vgq0BdGJ6KI/AAAAAAAAll8/2WndpMI19_8/s1600/Altgens%2Bcrop.jpg)  (http://i62.tinypic.com/3178bab.jpg)

Quote
The sun visor above Greer's head, that was hit by a bullet fragment, moves up between z271-272.  All of that is pretty consistent and points to a shot at z271-72.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2enclfn.jpg)

The sun visor over Hickey is flapping slightly all the way down Elm. Kellerman's head is completely hidden from view by the lamp-post Z266-267, so a sun visor moving before then sort of defeats Mason's claim that a fragment strike caused the minor visor movement that's seen just before the animation ends.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 23, 2018, 11:00:22 PM
It has been shown that the SBT is impossible in many different ways, therefore, how can the LNers support the WC's claim that LHO committed the crime?

From what I have observed over many years they can't. That means they support a false claim. Why?
The SBT is only needed if JBC is reacting to his chest wound at z230 or so.  The evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the last two shots were in rapid succession, which means that there was only one shot before z250.  There is no reason Oswald could not have fired all 3 shots.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 23, 2018, 11:08:48 PM
JBC was hit by the second shot in the back/armpit but the evidence is that a fragment from this bullet struck the windshield, windshield frame and sunvisor and another struck Tague, so it did not cause the left thigh wound which had the characteristics of being struck by the butt end of an intact bullet. So, that means he was also struck by another bullet. The evidence is very consistent that JFK was hit on the first shot. That bullet went to the left of JBC's midline and did not strike the car inside. What does that tell you?

To determine when the second shot occurred study the evidence. It was, according to Greer, just before he turned around and saw JBC falling back. According to Altgens it was after he took his z256 photo. According to Nellie it was after she stopped looking back at JFK. According to about 40 witnesses it was after the midpoint between shots 1 and 3. According to Hickey it occurred when JFK's hair on the right side flew up.  You should be able to figure it out from that.

Still holding off the "Big Reveal".

Howard, Andrew Mason -- an otherwise intelligent person who is a qualified attorney at law -- has a pet theory that goes something like this:It's a LN theory that has Oswald firing all three shots from the SN window. He thinks his shot-spacing witness tabulation democratically prove his theory's shot-placement. It doesn't matter that a similar "majority" thought the limousine "stopped" or most of the Parkland observers alluded to a more rearward position of the gaping head wound.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 23, 2018, 11:42:53 PM
You are saying he must be right on that point.

In order to determine if he was right one has to look at all the evidence. Nellie said he was turned. He told Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right. Nellie said that she turned to look at JFK after the first shot and never looked back after the second shot. She is turned looking back at JFK until z268. Greer said that he turned around immediately after the second shot. He does not turn until z278-280. Over 40 witnesses gave evidence that the second and third shots were in rapid succession, closer together than 1 and 2, which puts the second shot well after z235, which is the last time JBC faced forward. So there is an awful lot of evidence that his recollection in April 1964 that he was facing forward when hit by the second shot was not correct.

It may be that he thought he was facing forward because he had turned as far to his right and saw that JFK had moved left and just decided to turn to his left when he was hit. So rather than an actual recollection of where he was facing, he was reconstructing it in his mind and thought he had turned because that is what he was trying to do. Once he was hit he was in shock and had other things on his mind.   
I figure that the guy who best knows what Gov. Connally was doing when he was shot is Gov. Connally, his other experiences notwithstanding. That being said, how can you say, "we can't rely on what Connally tells us" then turn around and tell us that we should instead pay heed to what Tom Shires said that Connally said? If Connally isn't reliable, then Connally-via-Shires would be even less so!

So let's run down what the various players said between the assassination and the Warren Commision hearings. I'm using semicolons to separate different events in sequence, according to each instance of testimony:

John Connally/Agronsky: Heard a shot; turned to his left; as he turned, he was hit; said "My God, they're going to kill us all"; Kennedy hit again

John Connally/WC: Heard a shot; turned to his right; was turning back to the left; was hit in the left turn while facing forwards; said "Oh, no, no, no", then "My God, they're going to kill us all"; "doubled up" and turned to his right; was pulled into his wife's lap; Kennedy hit again

Nellie Connally/WC: "heard a noise"; turned to her right, saw JFK with his hands up at the same time her husband said "Oh, no, no, no"; "there was a second shot*"; "he recoiled to the right" and "looked away from me" while saying "My God, they're going to kill us all"; she pulled him into her lap; Kennedy hit again

Shires/WC: "She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that."

What Shires recalled is perfectly consistent with what Connally told the Commission.
 
The "shot-while-turning-left" memory appears during the Agronsky interview, which was only a few days after the assassination. In fact, that interview was conducted while Connally was still in his hospital bed. It short-sheets anything Shires recalled later  to the WC. And it remained in the Governor's testimony until he died.  That tells me it's a core memory of the event in his mind. He and Nellie also both agreed that he turned right as a reaction to being shot. The shot-while-turning-left recollection and the right-turn-as-reaction memory put a constraint on when he could have been hit. He turns left beginning about frame 195 and doesn't start to noticeably "recoil to the right"until after frame 235.

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 23, 2018, 11:45:03 PM
You heard it folks. To Gee the actual evidence is a "pain in the butt." I guess so when it shows that all the claims by the WC are false.

Why do you support false claims Gee?

Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 23, 2018, 11:50:28 PM
Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt

Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.

Quote
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt

Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 23, 2018, 11:53:36 PM
When it comes to his theory, Mason casts off all logic and evidence. Basically, he contents that the first shot occurred about Z197-Z200 (it varies). This bullet transited the President's neck and then emerged from the throat to bypass the left side of Connally's torso and embed itself into Connally's thigh. This should answer Howard Gee's question to Mason: "What happened to the bullet that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat ?"

(http://i66.tinypic.com/35c3ixi.jpg)
Mason's SketchUp treatment of first-shot
trajectory through JFK neck and into JBC
thigh; and my overlay of positions
What gets me is that Andrew still places Connally position and posture based on a photo taken while the limousine was on Main. He's not sitting like that in the Zapruder film.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 24, 2018, 01:27:40 AM
Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.

Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.

JohnM

It's not too bad on my desktop macs, but on my iOS devices it's fun time wasting to scroll 'n snip or more likely, do an 'end run' as they say.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 24, 2018, 02:12:39 AM
I figure that the guy who best knows what Gov. Connally was doing when he was shot is Gov. Connally, his other experiences notwithstanding. That being said, how can you say, "we can't rely on what Connally tells us" then turn around and tell us that we should instead pay heed to what Tom Shires said that Connally said? If Connally isn't reliable, then Connally-via-Shires would be even less so!
I am not saying that Connally's recollection to Shires is more reliable by itself. I am just pointing out that he said something different a day after the shooting than he said 6 months later.  If a witness says two different things, their evidence on that point cannot be relied on.  One of their answers may be correct or none may be correct. You have to see what fits the rest of the evidence.  There is remarkable consistency to the evidence that the second shot was closer to the third than to the first  and, therefore, was after z250. That conclusion is based not only on the 1.....2..3 shot pattern witnesses, but also on the independent recollections of Greer, Hickey, Nellie, Altgens, Tague, over 20 witnesses who put the first shot after z190 and a similar number of witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot.  JBC never turns forward after z250. So IF he was hit by the second shot, as everyone seems to agree including the Connallys, he was turned to the right when he was hit.

Quote
So let's run down what the various players said between the assassination and the Warren Commision hearings. I'm using semicolons to separate different events in sequence, according to each instance of testimony:

John Connally/Agronsky: Heard a shot; turned to his left; as he turned, he was hit; said "My God, they're going to kill us all"; Kennedy hit again
He said he first turned to the left, but that is obviously a mistake. He never turned to the left in an attempt to look to the rear.

Quote
John Connally/WC: Heard a shot; turned to his right; was turning back to the left; was hit in the left turn while facing forwards; said "Oh, no, no, no", then "My God, they're going to kill us all"; "doubled up" and turned to his right; was pulled into his wife's lap; Kennedy hit again

Nellie Connally/WC: "heard a noise"; turned to her right, saw JFK with his hands up at the same time her husband said "Oh, no, no, no"; "there was a second shot*"; "he recoiled to the right" and "looked away from me" while saying "My God, they're going to kill us all"; she pulled him into her lap; Kennedy hit again

Shires/WC: "She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that."

What Shires recalled is perfectly consistent with what Connally told the Commission.
 
The "shot-while-turning-left" memory appears during the Agronsky interview, which was only a few days after the assassination. In fact, that interview was conducted while Connally was still in his hospital bed. It short-sheets anything Shires recalled later  to the WC. And it remained in the Governor's testimony until he died.  That tells me it's a core memory of the event in his mind. He and Nellie also both agreed that he turned right as a reaction to being shot. The shot-while-turning-left recollection and the right-turn-as-reaction memory put a constraint on when he could have been hit. He turns left beginning about frame 195 and doesn't start to noticeably "recoil to the right"until after frame 235.
You seem to be the only one who thinks he initially turned to the left to see JFK. That makes no sense at all.  His whole point was that he turned around to see how JFK was because he feared an assassination was occurring.  He could see that JFK had moved to the left so he decided to turn the other way (to his left) to see how the President was. JBC never turns left to see JFK.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 24, 2018, 02:20:31 AM
What gets me is that Andrew still places Connally position and posture based on a photo taken while the limousine was on Main. He's not sitting like that in the Zapruder film.
That is pretty much how Connally is positioned at the time of the first shot, which, according to the evidence, was after z186 and before z202:

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z193.BMP)

 Jack Ready, riding on the right front running board of the QM, said he turned immediately to the rear. In order to do that he has to release his right hand from the right hand-hold. He does that at z199. I put the first shot at z195, at which time Oswald had a clear view of the President as he emerges from under the oak tree branches (through which he could be easily tracked).

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 24, 2018, 02:27:32 AM
Still holding off the "Big Reveal".

Howard, Andrew Mason -- an otherwise intelligent person who is a qualified attorney at law -- has a pet theory that goes something like this:
  • First shot: ca. Z197-200
    Bullet from SN window goes through Kennedy's neck,
    emwrges to then go pass left side of Connally's torso
    and buries itself in the Governor's left thigh. Governor
    later had no recall of being struck there.

  • Second shot: ca.Z271-272
    Bullet from SN window strikes Connally in armpit,
    traverses right torso, emerges from chest,
    strikes wrist breaking radius. Metal fragments go off
    wrist to maybe damage windshield and cause Tague hit.

  • Third shot: Z312/313
    Head shot to Kennedy.
It's a LN theory that has Oswald firing all three shots from the SN window. He thinks his shot-spacing witness tabulation democratically prove his theory's shot-placement. It doesn't matter that a similar "majority" thought the limousine "stopped" or most of the Parkland observers alluded to a more rearward position of the gaping head wound.
Jerry, you should take some time to read my paper (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Witness_Evidence_JFK_Dallas.pdf) on this. 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 02:42:12 AM
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 24, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
Jerry, you should take some time to read my paper (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Witness_Evidence_JFK_Dallas.pdf) on this.

Thanks for the new bookmark.

This one was working yesterday: Mason | Witness Evidence (http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/shot_pattern_evidence.pdf), but no more.

It appears you made some changes?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 24, 2018, 03:48:39 AM
That is pretty much how Connally is positioned at the time of the first shot, which, according to the evidence, was after z186 and before z202:

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z193.BMP)

It doesn't look like Connally's chest is facing as far to his right as you have him in your 3-D drawing.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/mason/sketchup/shoehorn-torso-twist.jpg)

Quote
Jack Ready, riding on the right front running board of the QM, said he turned immediately to the rear. In order to do that he has to release his right hand from the right hand-hold. He does that at z199. I put the first shot at z195, at which time Oswald had a clear view of the President as he emerges from under the oak tree branches (through which he could be easily tracked).

Been through this before. Agent Ready said the first shot occurred as:

    "we began the approach to the Thornton Freeway"
    "The shooting occurred as we were approaching the
     Thornton Freeway [sign]"

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_betzner_3_crop.jpg)
Betzner (Z186)
  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)
Willis 05 (Z202)

Which photo better represents Ready "approaching" the Thornton sign? Maybe a shot in the Z150s would better represent to Ready the beginning of the approach to the Thornton sign.

Ready moves his head rightward to a greater extend between Z165 and Z169 than he does just after Mason's Z199 "immediate" turn.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z165.jpg)(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z169.jpg)

I estimate a 60? head-turn within a one-quarter second time span.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z200.jpg)
Z200 (clearer than Z199)
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z207.jpg)
Much of Ready's "turn" between Z200 and Z207 is because his right side "expands" due to his right arm filling the area as it lowers. Ready's head turns a fraction. Also, you have Ready hearing a first shot fired at Z195 and reacting to it by deciding to remove his right hand from the handhold at Z199.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:08:10 AM

Anyone else in the back seat of the Limo, directly behind Kellerman, that spoke in a Boston accent?

A through and through bullet strike coming out of the throat (an essential requirement for the SBT) and you can clearly speak?

More importantly did anyone else in the back seats of the Limo who were closer to JFK than Kellerman, did any of these people hear the same "Boston accent"?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:18:37 AM
Seven wounds?

Connally's thigh was deep within the Limo, how did a bullet reach his thigh, was this assassin part of your blimp team?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 24, 2018, 04:31:33 AM
Kellerman

(http://i65.tinypic.com/4lg845.jpg)

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were?there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has has got his hands up here like this.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice?there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years.
Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you.
Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker.
Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then.
Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/rbfiqe.jpg)

Anyone else in the back seat of the Limo, directly behind Kellerman, that spoke in a Boston accent?

A through and through bullet strike coming out of the throat (an essential requirement for the SBT) and you can clearly speak?

Kellerman was just mistaken about what he heard. His first statement on 11/23 was JFK saying "get me to a hospital." not "My God I am hit." Kellerman just thought he heard something.

Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.
I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."
Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 24, 2018, 04:44:39 AM
Connally's thigh was deep within the Limo, how did a bullet reach his thigh, was this assassin part of your blimp team?

JohnM

No problem in CT Wonderland. Just add however many shooters needed, and stir.

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 24, 2018, 07:05:52 AM
[...you could have omitted this...]
Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"

I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.
Nellie Connally, John Connally, and Mrs Kennedy all testified that JFK didn't say a word. Nor did Greer report hearing from JFK, IIRC.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 10:41:19 AM
But SSA Kellerman did. Otherwise why say it at all?

Typical Kook logic, everyone who was close is ignored but one person says what you want to hear and you latch on like a dog on a bone.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 10:50:34 AM
Typical Kook logic, everyone who was close is ignored but one person says what you want to hear and you latch on like a dog on a bone.

JohnM

Why don't you believe Connolly when he said he was hit by the second bullet, then? He was closest to it. (or is that just Nutter logic?)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 10:52:35 AM

Mrs Kennedy was looking in the opposite direction to where JFK was sitting and had a motorcycle close to her (left hand side). It is likely she didn't hear her husband because of the noise around her at the time.


Hilarious, Kennedy's own wife who was sitting right next him couldn't hear through the noise but someone sitting further away and facing forward says what Fratini wants to hear and suddenly become a star witness? Far out!

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 10:53:40 AM
Why don't you believe Connolly when he said he was hit by the second bullet, then? He was closest to it. (or is that just Nutter logic?)

Connally was hit by the second bullet.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 10:58:24 AM
Connally was hit by the second bullet.

JohnM

The one after JFK was hit, according to him.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right
shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 11:12:13 AM
You got your pants pulled down by SSA Kellerman - you know it, we know it.

Kellerman was a trained SSA agent who was well aware of what JFK sounded like.

He was there in the LIMO - not you.

My pants pulled down?

If you had corroborating evidence from the closest eyewitnesses then you may have something, but the passenger who had the most intimate knowledge of Kennedy's voice was his wife and she heard nothing. The Connally's both accurately recall JC's words but didn't hear Kennedy say a word.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 11:50:50 AM
I didn't make the comment- a highly trained SSA did, who was sitting several feet in front of JFK.

He worked for the US GOVERNMENT. 

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice?there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.

Greer who was also trained by the US GOVERNMENT didn't hear JFK say anything.
Mrs Connally had perfect recall of her husbands words but didnt hear JFK say anything.
Mr Connally didn't hear JFK say anything.
Jackie his wife sitting right next to him, didn't hear JFK say anything.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 12:12:48 PM
His job was to focus on the road ahead and drive the vehicle not to listen to conversations.

SSA Kellerman heard his Boss speak.

Are you calling him a liar?

Kennedy's wife was the closest by far and was sitting right next to her husband and didn't hear a word.

Are you calling her a liar?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 12:32:34 PM
His job was to focus on the road ahead and drive the vehicle not to listen to conversations.

So Greer's job was to ignore his passengers, is that righght?

Btw do you think that Kennedy whispered the words or would he say it loud enough so people could hear him and perhaps help him and if the most important man in the world did in fact say Im shot then why did no one else hear him?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 12:46:47 PM
Mrs Kennedy wasn't always sitting right next to her husband - her initial focus was.......

More speculation, Greer was focused here, Jackie was focused there, time to wake up Fratini the primary focus of virtually everyone and I mean virtually everyone in Dealey Plaza inside and outside the Limo was on the President of the United States of America John F Kennedy.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 01:12:14 PM
Your trying to discredit SSA Kellerman by providing your opinions. Just because no else recalled JFK speaking didn't mean he didn't as their attention could have been diverted elsewhere for the 1 second statement.

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

Compare Z frame 161 and then 222 - you can see that Mrs Kennedy goes from looking to her left to now focusing her attention on her husband.

That's about 3 seconds in gap - no wounds, one wound or 7 wounds?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying across that trunk.

Are you trying to imply that SSA Kellerman got EVERY point correct except for hearing his Boss?

SSA Kellerman made the statement, so was he a liar?

Kellerman said that after he heard the President speak he looked at him and saw that Kennedy was shot and needed to go to the hospital for medical treatment, what did Kellerman see?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 01:16:08 PM
I see Mytton, EVERYONE was focused on JFK EXCEPT the man (SSA Kellerman) assigned for his protection.  ;D

There is nothing in your opinions that even remotely challenges what Kellerman wrote in his report and told the WC.

Your SBT is sunk  :(

More Kook logic, the SBF is sunk based on the uncorroborated testimony of one man, it's no wonder you people have no answers.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Colin Crow on September 24, 2018, 01:26:38 PM
More Kook logic, the SBF is sunk based on the uncorroborated testimony of one man, it's no wonder you people have no answers.

JohnM

Do you believe Givens' cigarette story that placed Oswald on the 6th floor?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 01:29:02 PM
Do you believe Givens' cigarette story that placed Oswald on the 6th floor?

No, Givens was a reefer addict.
Btw please don't derail this thread.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Colin Crow on September 24, 2018, 01:30:24 PM
No, Givens was a reefer addict.
Btw please don't derail this thread.

JohnM

Thanks for confirming that Givens lied. Ya still got the other thread but feel free to resume transmission.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 01:31:19 PM
Thanks for confirming that Givens lied.

I confirmed my opinion.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 01:45:04 PM
This is from the Warren Report

"Roy Kellerman, in the right front seat of the limousine, heard a report like a firecracker pop. Turning to his right in the direction of the noise, Kellerman heard the President say "My God, I am hit," and saw both of the President's hands move up toward his neck. As he told the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," Kellerman grabbed his microphone and radioed ahead to the lead car, "We are hit. Get us to the hospital immediately."

Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 1160-1163). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.

Unlike what was done to Jack Dougherty, no one from the WC challenged what SSA Kellerman stated.

No kook or troll sunk your SBT - an official agent of the US Government did.

If CE 399 went through JFK's throat how was he able to speak any words?

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.

You conveniently didn't highlight it this time, but your testimony from Kellerman says that after he heard the words he viewed Kennedy and saw that JFK was hit, what did Kellerman see?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:00:08 PM
Following the official line, Rob.

But why Ray?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:01:13 PM
Good, so you believe that Ruby actually killed Ruby and the pubic hairs in evidence belong to Oswald, just like a WC supporter, nice!

JohnM

So you are a liar. Got it.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:05:55 PM
The SBT is only needed if JBC is reacting to his chest wound at z230 or so.  The evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the last two shots were in rapid succession, which means that there was only one shot before z250.  There is no reason Oswald could not have fired all 3 shots.

Nonsense. The M-C took 2.3 seconds to recycle. Then add in time to reacquire the target. There is nothing "rapid" about that.

Shots fired rapidly indicates more than one shooter. Why do you support a false claim?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 02:07:11 PM
So you are a liar. Got it.

No, I'm just trying to keep up with your ever changing conspiracy which you never seem to be able to define. One day you're Arthur and the next day you're Martha.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:09:29 PM
Stop twisting what others say.
Howard said the scrolling is what is the pain in the butt

Nice try, but my "page long diatribes" are loaded with EVIDENCE. I did not twist anything. That is what LNers do.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 02:13:55 PM
Nice try, but my "page long diatribes" are loaded with EVIDENCE. I did not twist anything. That is what LNers do.

No, your posts are loaded with biased opinion.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:14:13 PM
Rob twisting testimony and what people say, say it ain't so.

Exactly and when members reply to him and don't "snip" Caprio's post, then we get double trouble.

JohnM

So I "twist" the evidence by quoting it, citing it and putting links to it so everyone can see it for themselves. Good one. 🤣😄😆

We have seen in this very thread that you will resort to lying when needed so your opinion isn't worth anything.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:23:57 PM
Connally was hit by the second bullet.

JohnM

JBC and his wife disagree with you.

***************************************

One of the most important witnesses to the assassination was the Governor of Texas -- John B. Connally (JBC). He was actually inside the limousine with President John F. Kennedy (JFK) and was also shot, so he would have been in the best position to determine what happened.  Unfortunately for the Warren Commission (WC), and its defenders, he NEVER supported the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) claim.  He said he was shot by a DIFFERENT bullet than the one that hit JFK first. 

Let's take a look at some of his WC testimony.


*******************************************

Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.

So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.

So we see the Governor said he looked to his right and then started to look to the left when he FINALLY got hit in the back by a bullet.  There is NO way he could have done all of this IF he had been hit immediately by the bullet that first hit JFK.  Proof of this is the FACT he is seen holding his Stetson hat in his right hand while JFK is already visibly reacting to a shot.  JBC never lets go of the hat and this would be impossible IF he was eventually hit in the wrist as the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) claims.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

According to the WC, and its defenders, ONLY ONE person was involved and he was using an OLD rifle with a bolt action that was NOT easy to manipulate.  IF they are correct, how did LHO manipulate the bolt so fast as to confuse NUMEROUS people into thinking shots came "right on top of each other?" 

GOVERNOR CONNALLY. ...So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.

I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----

Again, we see based on the rapidity of the shots JBC was convinced more than one shooter was involved, thus, he said "THEY are going to kill us all."  Some researchers have said this was a "Freudian slip" as JBC knew of the conspiracy ahead of time, and thus, said THEY as he knew the details.  I'm NOT making any such claim.  MY point is BASED ON WHAT HE HEARD he felt more than one shooter was involved OR the one shooter had an automatic rifle.  Since we know the WC claimed LHO did NOT use an automatic rifle this option is eliminated and we are left with the one involving more than ONE shooter based on what G
JBC heard.


Mr. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that you made there?

Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?

Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.

Here we see him say the time between the first and third shots was just a matter of "seconds."  He then says, it seems to please the WC to me, "I don't know, 10, 12 seconds."  How many of you would think of 10 or 12 seconds when he said "seconds?"  NOT me.  He then goes on to say "it was extremely rapid...", so much so, he again thought "that whoever was firing MUST BE firing with an automatic rifle because of the RAPIDITY of the shots...". How would 10 or 12 seconds make anyone think an automatic rifle was being used?  Do they take 10 or 12 seconds between shots?  IF so, why are they called AUTOMATIC rifles then?

We must discount this obviously inaccurate statement to please the WC and look at the majority of what he is saying here.  He is saying the shots  (first and third) came so rapidly that he thought more than one shooter was involved or the shooter was using an AUTOMATIC rifle! How does this jive with what the WC told us happened?  IT DOESN'T.

Remember the memo I did in this series showing as of January 1964 the WC was still debating whether or not JFK was the target at all?  Look at this question from Congressman Boggs.


Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.

On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me.

It should be noted that JBC still believed in the three shot scenario even though he keeps saying the second shot missed JFK.  He was basically saying the second shot caused ALL OF HIS WOUNDS as that is the ONLY one he claims missed JFK!  This is just as preposterous as the SBT claim in my mind.  What do you think?

I find it odd at this stage they are still trying to figure out if JFK was the primary target or not!  Was this just subterfuge or where they really NOT sure?  IF JBC was the target, and I really doubt it, why would LHO wait for the time when the president was with him, thus, in most normal times heightening the security he would face dramatically? It would seem to me since JBC was in Texas all the time LHO could have picked a better time to shoot at him IF he really wanted to.  What do you think?

It is apparent from JBC's testimony that the SBT did NOT happen.  It is also apparent that he felt two or more shooters were involved or the one shooter involved used an automatic weapon.  Since automatic weapons are NOT nearly as accurate this option seems out of the running (along with the fact the WC claimed NO such weapon was used). This leaves us with more than one shooter.

JBC's statements were corroborated by his wife who was sitting right next to him.


Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.

I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."

Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.

I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

Again, we see the first shot hit JFK and did NOT hit JBC per his wife.  After she saw the president react ONLY then did she hear a second shot and her husband react to being hit.  I have done other statements that sink the SBT in this series, but these are firsthand accounts of people INSIDE THE LIMO that also sink the SBT.

It is very clear from their statements that JFK and JBC were NOT hit with the SAME bullet, thus, when we factor in the WC's claim that a shot missed and hit James Tague we are left with ONLY one option -- a FOURTH shot at the minimum.  This means a second shooter was involved and a CONSPIRACY took place.

It also means that the WC?s conclusion is false, therefore, it is sunk again.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 24, 2018, 02:25:35 PM
;D of course he was Jack.

You don't think SSA Kellerman, who was assigned for the protection of the President, would fail to recognize his Commander in Chief's own voice?

At a time of great confusion within the Limo, crowd noise, gunfire, do you think everyone in the Limo was just looking and hearing out for JFK?

Explain Kellerman changing his 11/23 statement. He claims to clearly hear JFK say this yet completely changes his story to accomodate a different statement.

Dave Powers had the exact same accent as JFK and was riding 10 feet behind JFK.

No one but Kellerman made this assertion despite the others being located right next to him and not only able to hear what he said but observe his reactions, it is simply what you desperately want to believe. Maybe this is why you seem unable to understand the assassination and grab onto to these meaning less obscurities.

If you are going to believe SS Kellerman and a single sentence, how do you discount his belief the car accelerated after the second shot before the third?

Explain how a bullet only penetrates two inches and stops. How the shooter would know the bullet is some sort of a misfire and compensate for it.

Once again explain how JBC was wounded without the bullet passing through JFK.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 02:38:45 PM
JBC and his wife disagree with you.

***************************************

One of the most important witnesses to the assassination was the Governor of Texas -- John B. Connally (JBC). He was actually inside the limousine with President John F. Kennedy (JFK) and was also shot, so he would have been in the best position to determine what happened.  Unfortunately for the Warren Commission (WC), and its defenders, he NEVER supported the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) claim.  He said he was shot by a DIFFERENT bullet than the one that hit JFK first. 

Let's take a look at some of his WC testimony.


*******************************************

Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.

So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.

So we see the Governor said he looked to his right and then started to look to the left when he FINALLY got hit in the back by a bullet.  There is NO way he could have done all of this IF he had been hit immediately by the bullet that first hit JFK.  Proof of this is the FACT he is seen holding his Stetson hat in his right hand while JFK is already visibly reacting to a shot.  JBC never lets go of the hat and this would be impossible IF he was eventually hit in the wrist as the Single Bullet Theory (SBT) claims.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

According to the WC, and its defenders, ONLY ONE person was involved and he was using an OLD rifle with a bolt action that was NOT easy to manipulate.  IF they are correct, how did LHO manipulate the bolt so fast as to confuse NUMEROUS people into thinking shots came "right on top of each other?" 

GOVERNOR CONNALLY. ...So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.

I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----

Again, we see based on the rapidity of the shots JBC was convinced more than one shooter was involved, thus, he said "THEY are going to kill us all."  Some researchers have said this was a "Freudian slip" as JBC knew of the conspiracy ahead of time, and thus, said THEY as he knew the details.  I'm NOT making any such claim.  MY point is BASED ON WHAT HE HEARD he felt more than one shooter was involved OR the one shooter had an automatic rifle.  Since we know the WC claimed LHO did NOT use an automatic rifle this option is eliminated and we are left with the one involving more than ONE shooter based on what G
JBC heard.


Mr. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that you made there?

Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?

Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.

Here we see him say the time between the first and third shots was just a matter of "seconds."  He then says, it seems to please the WC to me, "I don't know, 10, 12 seconds."  How many of you would think of 10 or 12 seconds when he said "seconds?"  NOT me.  He then goes on to say "it was extremely rapid...", so much so, he again thought "that whoever was firing MUST BE firing with an automatic rifle because of the RAPIDITY of the shots...". How would 10 or 12 seconds make anyone think an automatic rifle was being used?  Do they take 10 or 12 seconds between shots?  IF so, why are they called AUTOMATIC rifles then?

We must discount this obviously inaccurate statement to please the WC and look at the majority of what he is saying here.  He is saying the shots  (first and third) came so rapidly that he thought more than one shooter was involved or the shooter was using an AUTOMATIC rifle! How does this jive with what the WC told us happened?  IT DOESN'T.

Remember the memo I did in this series showing as of January 1964 the WC was still debating whether or not JFK was the target at all?  Look at this question from Congressman Boggs.


Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.

On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the   

I said that Connally was hit by the second bullet then you reply that the Connally's would disagree with me then you post a wall of words supporting that Connally was hit by the second bullet, are you drunk?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 02:42:05 PM
I think Kellerman is mistaken about hearing JFK say anything during the shooting.

For a trained agent, he's a pretty poor witness.

I believe Kellerman probably said 'we are hit, get us out of here'.

I don't believe he heard JFK say 'my god, I am hit'.

When could JFK possibly say 'my god, I am hit' ?

There's NO WAY he said 'my god I am hit' AFTER a bullet ripped through his throat, right ?

Therefore, JFK would have had to have said 'my god, I am hit' BEFORE the throat shot.

So once again, we are left with the conspiracy kook muddled scenario in which JFK is first hit by a bullet that enters his back and does not exit anywhere - and a throat entrance wound that doesn't exit anywhere - which means that the kooks now have TWO bullets that magically disappear after wounding JFK.

If the kooks want to claim the bullet that entered JFK's back fell out during cardiac massage, they STILL have to try to explain what happened to the bullet that they claim entered JFK's neck !!

Maybe they think THAT bullet fell out during cardiac massage too ?  :D

It's clear as day that the bullet that entered JFK's back MUST have exited from his throat.

And unless you believe that a bullet which exited JFK's throat just vanished into thin air, rather than hitting JBC or landing in the limo, -- and unless you foolishly believe 399 was planted -- then it's equally clear that 399 entered JFK's back, exited his throat, and wounded JBC.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 02:44:02 PM
No, I'm just trying to keep up with your ever changing conspiracy which you never seem to be able to define. One day you're Arthur and the next day you're Martha.

JohnM

You falsely attributed things to me knowing that I never said them. That is the definition of lying. You're a liar, but don't be upset as this was already known.

Why do you support a false claim?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 02:51:08 PM

Now did SSA Kellerman hear his Commander in Chief speak in his Boston accent - yes or no?

No.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 02:54:53 PM
You falsely attributed things to me knowing that I never said them. That is the definition of lying. You're a liar, but don't be upset as this was already known

Stop squirming, in your never ending series which was rightly wiped off this Forum, you posted that you believed that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswalds pubic hair was fake and now because your threads and the proof are gone, you are tryng to deny it. Pathetic.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 02:57:28 PM
Explain Kellerman changing his 11/23 statement. He claims to clearly hear JFK say this yet completely changes his story to accomodate a different statement

So Kellerman's earliest statement said something completely different, interesting.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:12:31 PM
Can I ask you a question? Have you ever worked in a chicken shop? Serious question  ;D

Your mode of belittling, assumptions, adding statements that no one has made, setting up false arguments, using kook, posting style is extremely reminiscent of a poster I used to argue with and rarely posts here anymore using his real name.

Unless you were personally in the Presidential limo, was at Parklands in trauma room one or was at Bethesda during the autopsy - can I give you some friendly advice?

STFU.

Do you really expect people to have a civil debate with you?

Awww, it looks like Fratini is going throwing a tantrum.

Poor widdle baby !

STFU ?  Now THAT's civil debate !

Question for you Fratini, what are you going to do if I don't STFU ?

Cry some more.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 03:14:28 PM
No, your posts are loaded with biased opinion.

JohnM

You wish. Why do you support a false claim?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:19:05 PM
My involvement in this thread with you is over then.

Your aim now is to divert and derail.

We are both wasting our time here.

You asked whether Kellerman heard JFK say in his Boston accent that he was hit, yes or no.

I answered NO.

And you're throwing a sh1t fit over that ?

LMAO

Don't ask questions if you don't want answers !
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 03:20:21 PM
I said that Connally was hit by the second bullet then you reply that the Connally's would disagree with me then you post a wall of words supporting that Connally was hit by the second bullet, are you drunk?

JohnM

But according to your beloved WC a bullet missed. If you had read my post (something that will never happen since the actual evidence does NOT support the WC or Mytton) you would have seen that he and his wife said that the FIRST bullet hit JFK. The SECOND bullet hit him. The THIRD bullet hit JFK.

So which bullet missed? Which one caused the injury to Tague? Be specific.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 03:26:25 PM
You asked whether Kellerman heard JFK say in his Boston accent that he was hit, yes or no.

I answered NO.

And you're throwing a sh1t fit over that ?

LMAO

Don't ask questions if you don't want answers !

Hey Howard, do you know Kellerman didn't hear anything in his Boss said, or, as I suspect, do you just think he didn't?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 03:27:55 PM
Stop squirming, in your never ending series which was rightly wiped off this Forum, you posted that you believed that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswalds pubic hair was fake and now because your threads and the proof are gone, you are tryng to deny it. Pathetic.

JohnM

No I didn't. All dishonest people are in favor of censorship. It makes their work easier.

You can't quote me. You lied. End of story.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:30:17 PM

Unless you were personally in the Presidential limo, was at Parklands in trauma room one or was at Bethesda during the autopsy - can I give you some friendly advice?

STFU.


I didn't realize that one had to be in the limo or at Parkland or Bethesda to comment here.

I'm wondering why YOU get to tell everyone that wasn't there to STFU ?

Were YOU there, Fratini ?

No ?

Then maybe you should follow your own advice.  8)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:35:46 PM
Hey Howard, do you know Kellerman didn't hear anything in his Boss said, or, as I suspect, do you just think he didn't?

Ray, read my post that set Fratini off. I explained why I think Kellerman didn't hear JFK say anything.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:40:59 PM
No I didn't. All dishonest people are in favor of censorship. It makes their work easier.

You can't quote me. You lied. End of story.

C'mon Rob, let's be real, you're NOT being censored. Cut it out already.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
the FIRST bullet hit JFK. The SECOND bullet hit him. The THIRD bullet hit JFK.

Yep, it could have happened that way.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 03:46:07 PM
Ray, read my post that set Fratini off. I explained why I think Kellerman didn't hear JFK say anything.

Which post was that, Howard? You make so many daft ones.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:49:59 PM
I'm going with 3 shots, and 3 shots only.

First shot miss.

Second shot wounds JFK and JBC.

Third shot makes LBJ Prez.



Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 03:53:01 PM
No I didn't.

Ok deny it who cares, the threads are gone because you are a liar and anyway your series will will never be seen here again so good riddance to garbage.

JohnM


Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 03:54:31 PM
I'm going with 3 shots, and 3 shots only.

First shot miss.

Second shot wounds JFK and JBC.

Third shot makes LBJ Prez.

So Connolly was lying?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 03:57:31 PM
Which post was that, Howard? You make so many daft ones.

Post 242, Ray. I'll ignore the 'daft' typo, because I'm sure you meant to say 'deft'.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Post 242, Ray. I'll ignore the 'daft' typo, because I'm sure you meant to say 'deft'.

No, there's nothing wrong with your reading, but your comprehension seems suspect, Howard. Thank you for the link.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 04:04:32 PM
So Connolly was lying?

No, Connally wasn't lying. He mistakenly thought the first shot hit JFK. Connally was correct that the second shot hit him (and JFK).
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 04:13:35 PM
No, Connally wasn't lying. He mistakenly thought the first shot hit JFK. Connally was correct that the second shot hit him (and JFK).

Wow Howard. Did he actually tell you this or is just another of your assumptions?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 04:20:37 PM
Oh God no - your no JFK assassination researcher heavy weight unlike David Von Pein. I enjoyed debating with him and he admitted working in a chicken shop.  :D

Had some terrific debates re CE 142. He is still trying to work out how Lee got it from the SW side to the SE corner while BRW was there.

I have a ton of material that I have generated myself over many years - but I am not wasting my time on a troll like yourself.

I'm sure DVP wiped the floors with you.

Now if you're done wasting your time with me, go back to your bag thread and quit derailing this one.

No one gives a crap that DVP worked in a chicken shop and it certainly has`no bearing on whatever you were debating.

You're attempt at demeaning DVP because he worked in a chicken shop is a total fail and backfire.

It only shows your desperation and portrays you as a self aggrandizing elitist putz.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:20:51 PM
Wow Howard. Did he actually tell you this or is just another of your assumptions?

In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:25:49 PM
I'm sure DVP wiped the floors with you.

Now if you're done wasting your time with me, go back to your bag thread and quit derailing this one.

No one gives a crap that DVP worked in a chicken shop and it certainly has`no bearing on whatever you were debating.

You're attempt at demeaning DVP because he worked in a chicken shop is a total fail and backfire.

It only shows your desperation and portrays you as a self aggrandizing elitist putz.

I think DVP owned a chicken shop.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 04:30:04 PM
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.

"Generally accepted"  :D
Quote
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...


JohnM

Pity you didn't complete the testimony, John.

 .....and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 04:38:19 PM
One of the seven Warren Commisison members, Senator Richard Russell had this (recorded) conversation with his good buddy, President Lyndon Johnson:

RUSSELL: - The commission believes that the same bullet that hit Kennedy hit Connally. Well, I don't believe it.
JOHNSON: - I don't either.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:43:06 PM
"Generally accepted"  :D
Pity you didn't complete the testimony, John.

 .....and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.

Yeah Connally goes on to say he was hit with the second bullet, so whats your point?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 04:44:28 PM
Wow Howard. Did he actually tell you this or is just another of your assumptions?

Ray, Connally does tell us he was hit by the second shot.

He also tells us that he heard the first shot, turned to try to see JFK but couldn't.

Connally only assumed JFK was hit by the first shot.

What's so hard to understand ?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 04:44:56 PM
Yeah Connally goes on to say he was hit with the second bullet, so whats your point?

JohnM

After he heard the shot that hit JFK. So, not the same bullet. So no SBT.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:48:26 PM
There is nothing wrong with that at all.

I had KFC today and it was awesome.  ;D

DVPs web site on JFK is one of the best l have ever seen.

Can you tell what DVPs chicken shop has to do with the OP and then can you explain why it was mentioned in the first place?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 04:49:30 PM
After he heard the shot that hit JFK. So, not the same bullet. So no SBT.

He never says he saw Kennedy shot?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 04:52:37 PM
He never says he saw Kennedy shot?

JohnM

Correct, he didn't say heard JFK hit. He said he was hit after the shot he heard.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 04:55:38 PM
Dont pump up your tires Gee, your debating style and aggressiveness is a perfect mirror image of his.

I had to double check to make sure it wasn't him l was debating with. The only thing he wiped was his nose. DVP has access to the same documents as l have. No one has all the answers.

Your constant reliance of mistaken witnesses is simply astounding Gee - how many now?

That's why the WC didn't want to be reliant on any "theory". That included the SBT.

It is interesting that no LNer mentioned SSA Kellerman before l did. Why?

Thought you were done wasting your time on me, Fratini. What happened to that ?

LMAO @ 'no LNer mentioned Kellerman before I did'.

Yeah, if you say so. No one ever heard of Kellerman before you mentioned him !

Since I'm sure DVP wiped the floors with you, I'll take it as a compliment that you thought you were debating him again.

Different opponent, same result.

You lose.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 24, 2018, 05:04:45 PM
Thought you were done wasting your time on me, Fratini. What happened to that ?

LMAO @ 'no LNer mentioned Kellerman before I did'.

Yeah, if you say so. No one ever heard of Kellerman before you mentioned him !

Since I'm sure DVP wiped the floors with you,

Show us the beef, Howard. Give us a link to where you say DVP wiped the floor with Tony Fratini.
Quote
I'll take it as a compliment that you thought you were debating him again.

I wouldn't take it as a compliment, if I were you.
Quote
Different opponent, same result.
Probably as DVP never won either, unless you can show otherwise.
Quote
You lose.

Wrong again, Howard.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Don Echols on September 24, 2018, 06:18:54 PM
How could he speak,when his vocal cord was damaged?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 24, 2018, 06:44:35 PM
How could he speak,when his vocal cord was damaged?

 Thumb1:

He couldn't.

The only time JFK could have said 'My god, I'm hit' is before the throat wound.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Don Echols on September 24, 2018, 08:36:43 PM
Exactly,the agent was wrong.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 24, 2018, 10:12:31 PM
Ray, Connally does tell us he was hit by the second shot.

He also tells us that he heard the first shot, turned to try to see JFK but couldn't.

Connally only assumed JFK was hit by the first shot.

What's so hard to understand ?
JBC many not have been sure that JFK was hit but he did notice that JFK had moved to his left so he could not see how he was by turning to the right.  But Nellie and more than 20 others actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it and not by smiling and waving:

1.   T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)

2.   Nellie Connally (4 H 147. "I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.") (heard 3 shots)

3.   David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President?s head") (heard 3 shots)

4.   Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
        ??.I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
        Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally?s?
        Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don?t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.

5.   Gayle Newman (19 H 488: "President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car") (heard 3 shots)

6.   William Newman (19 H 490 "The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it.") (first (22Nov63) described only 2 shots and later (24Nov63) 3 shots)

7.   John Chism (19 H 472 ?When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.? (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).

8.   Faye Chism (19 H 471 ?As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.?) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)

9.   James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)

10.   Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)

11.   SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)

12.   Linda Willis (7 H 498. ? Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn?t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)

13.   SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.?) (heard 3 shots)

14.   SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. ?As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard?). (heard 3 shots)

15.   SA Emory Roberts (CE1024, 18 H 734. ?12:30 p.m. First of three shots fired, at which time I saw the President lean toward Mrs. Kennedy. I do not know if it was the next shot or third shot that hit the President in the head, but I saw ,,,what appeared to be a small explosion on the right side of the President's head, saw blood, at which time the President fell further to his left.?). (heard 3 shots)

16.   Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)

17.   Harold Norman (3 H 191. ?but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,?) (heard 3 shots)

18.   Malcolm Summers (Affidavit, 19 H 500 ?The President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no", then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots.?) (described 2 shots - not asked how many shots he heard).

19.   Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, ?As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.? (heard 3 or 4 shots).

20.   Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, ?The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.?) (heard 3 or 4 shots in all ? Dallas PD 22Nov63)

21.   Charles Brehm (Dallas Times Herald statement, Nov. 22, 1963 ?The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. ?The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped?.?) (heard 3 shots but said the second shot hit JFK in the head because he saw his hair fly up).

22.   Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought ?the President was ducking from the first shot?)


Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 24, 2018, 10:36:28 PM
Typical Kook logic, everyone who was close is ignored but one person says what you want to hear and you latch on like a dog on a bone.

Yeah like "this is it", and/or "it's all over now".
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 24, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
You falsely attributed things to me knowing that I never said them. That is the definition of lying. You're a liar, but don't be upset as this was already known.

Is that a surprise to anybody at all?  "Mytton" does that all the time.  He simply cannot be trusted to tell the truth about the evidence or about what other people say.  This is a game to him.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 24, 2018, 10:45:58 PM
No, your posts are loaded with biased opinion.

You mean like "Oswald's bullets"?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 24, 2018, 10:53:17 PM
Dont pump up your tires Gee, your debating style and aggressiveness is a perfect mirror image of his.

The difference is that DVP knows the evidence.  Howard uses his "style" to cover up for the fact that he doesn't know anything about the case.

Just ask Jarvis.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 24, 2018, 10:55:12 PM
Dave Powers had the exact same accent as JFK and was riding 10 feet behind JFK.

Why would Dave Powers say "My god, I'm hit"?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 24, 2018, 10:57:01 PM
Can you tell what DVPs chicken shop has to do with the OP and then can you explain why it was mentioned in the first place?

Probably the same reason Rob's employment at Publix was ever relevant.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Don Echols on September 24, 2018, 11:11:26 PM
Yes, Dave was from Boston,and had a Boston,only 3 men,have that  particular accent,John,Ted and Bobby.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 11:19:27 PM
C'mon Rob, let's be real, you're NOT being censored. Cut it out already.

Go back and read what I was commenting to. Mytton was gloating about my posts being "wiped off the forum." I violated no rules and had my posts erased. You said that I was censored awhile back so why are asking me not to use the word?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 11:24:11 PM
Yep, it could have happened that way.

JohnM

So what caused the damage to the windshield frame? What caused Tague's injury? Be specific.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 11:26:57 PM
I'm going with 3 shots, and 3 shots only.

First shot miss.

Second shot wounds JFK and JBC.

Third shot makes LBJ Prez.

There's absolutely zero evidence for your second shot. If you think otherwise then cite the evidence that supports your claim.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 11:35:57 PM
Stop squirming, in your never ending series which was rightly wiped off this Forum, you posted that you believed that Ruby didn't shoot Oswald and that Oswalds pubic hair was fake and now because your threads and the proof are gone, you are tryng to deny it. Pathetic.

JohnM

What is pathetic is your support of censorship. Why does the evidence scare you so much? Why can't you support any of the WC's claims?

For the record -- I have stated numerous times that I don't support every point in my posts. I presented research and witness testimony that raised questions about whether Ruby actually shot LHO or not. I asked repeatedly for anyone to post the ballistic report that showed the bullet inside LHO matched Ruby's revolver, but no one ever did.

Can you?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 11:41:25 PM
Is that a surprise to anybody at all?  "Mytton" does that all the time.  He simply cannot be trusted to tell the truth about the evidence or about what other people say.  This is a game to him.

It is a game to him. That is why he favors censorship. He thinks that makes it easier for him to win the game.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 24, 2018, 11:46:50 PM
Why would SSA Kellerman "imagine" or "fabricate" hearing JFK speak?

Was he in fact a liar? The WC didn't say so, so what is your motivation Gee?

Harmful to the SB THEORY?  ???

Quote
Harmful to the SB THEORY?  ???

Oops!

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston.
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this. 


Kellerman describes being near the sign and hearing a pop(SBF), in Zapruder as Kellerman passes behind the sign he is always looking towards his right.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HssDzDvW/kellerman_in_zap_sign.gif)

Now in Zapruder we see both Kennedy and Connally reacting to Kellerman's "pop" and this is when Kellerman firmly believes he hears the President speak then finally turns around.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp9vx2GP/kellerman_in_zappa.gif)

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 12:01:56 AM
Probably the same reason Rob's employment at Publix was ever relevant.

Was Rob employed at Publix? So what if he was!

Anyway, how does someone and something who isn't involved in this debate, DVP and his chicken shop, even get mentioned, it's just another Iacolettiesque attempt at deflection.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 12:24:37 AM
Was Rob employed at Publix? So what if he was!

Ask Paul May.  He used to bring it up on a regular basis.

Quote
Anyway, how does someone and something who isn't involved in this debate, DVP and his chicken shop, even get mentioned, it's just another Iacolettiesque attempt at deflection.

I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.  But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 12:46:16 AM
Ask Paul May.  He used to bring it up on a regular basis.

I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.  But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.

Quote
Ask Paul May.  He used to bring it up on a regular basis.

I don't care, why even mention it?

Quote
I didn't bring up DVP and his chicken shop.

No, the behaviour was Iacolettiesque? not specifically you but I wouldn't put it past you.

Quote
But no doubt this will form the basis for another "Mytton" lie in a few months.

As if I need any more ammunition, you are the gift that keeps on giving.

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 01:11:23 AM
Why would SSA Kellerman "imagine" or "fabricate" hearing JFK speak?

Was he in fact a liar? The WC didn't say so, so what is your motivation Gee?

Harmful to the SB THEORY?  ???

Fratini, are you done wasting your time on me or not ?  :D

Fratini, it's really a shame you can't understand that witnesses make mistakes.

I never said that Kellerman fabricated or intentionally lied that he heard JFK say in a Boston accent that he was hit.

I'm saying Kellerman is confused and wrong.

And I can demonstrate that Kellerman was wrong.

The only time JFK could have said 'My god, I'm hit' is BEFORE the throat shot.

Even you should be able to understand that JFK didn't say anything AFTER the throat shot.

Unfortunately, you don't seem capable of understanding that if JFK said 'I'm hit' before the throat shot that would mean there are TWO bullets unaccounted for if you insist that CE399 didn't pass through JFK and go on to wound JBC.

You can try to account for one of the bullets by postulating it fell out during cardiac massage and was lost in sheets at Parkland or in the casket, but that still wouldn't explain what happened to the bullet that would have remained in JFK's throat.

You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using critical thinking and sound logic to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.

Read my #242 again, a few dozen times, and you might understand the significance of JFK supposedly saying 'My god, I'm hit' and why Kellerman must have been wrong (not 'fabricating') about hearing him say it.

One of these years you might even come to understand why a frontal entry throat shot is an impossibility.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 25, 2018, 01:47:44 AM
JBC many not have been sure that JFK was hit but he did notice that JFK had moved to his left so he could not see how he was by turning to the right.  But Nellie and more than 20 others actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it and not by smiling and waving:

The following witnesses are supposed to have been able to see the President after the first shot (Z150s me; Z195 you) AND could gauge whether he was not smiling or waving after they heard the shot?

Quote
1.   T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)

T.E. Moore could not see the President's face and not much of his raised right hand.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/firstshot/t-e-moore-first-shot.png)

Quote
3.   David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President?s head") (heard 3 shots)

David Powers can't see the President's face and maybe not his right hand.

Quote
4.   Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
        ??.I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
        Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally?s?
        Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don?t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z153.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z198.jpg)
Clear frame near to proposed shot  Clear frame near to proposed shot
I don't believe Hargis could see much of the President's face nor his right hand. Seems to have Kennedy ("bent over" due to Z226-228 slump) and Connally both wounded by shot that was prior to head-shot.

Quote
7.   John Chism (19 H 472 ?When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.? (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).

8.   Faye Chism (19 H 471 ?As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.?) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)

In their affidavits, the Chisms each describe two shots only. How one can surmise they were not asked how many shots is anybody's guess. Since it is two shots, the "first shot" they're describing is the one before the head-shot, in my scenario it would be the Z223 SBT double-hit.

Quote
9.   James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)

Altgens' testimony shows he was really only sure of two shots, but when pressed, he reluctantly placed an hypothetical shot between the two shots he was sure of.

Quote
10.   Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm (http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm) - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)

Like the Chisms, Zapruder could be speaking of the shot that caused the President to slump.

Quote
11.   SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z153.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg)
Clear frame near to proposed shot  Clear frame near to proposed shot

Hill can't see the President's face and little of his right hand.

Quote
12.   Linda Willis (7 H 498. ? Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn?t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/122gent.jpg)

I don't think Linda Willis could see the President "grab his throat"; her view to the President by Z226 was probably blocked.

Quote
13.   SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.?) (heard 3 shots)

Hickey can't see the President's face and probably not his right hand.

Quote
14.   SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. ?As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard?). (heard 3 shots)

Kinney can't see the President's face and probably not his right hand.

Quote
16.   Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)

Ault's full comment (emphasis added) "Following the first shot Mr. AULT noted that President KENNEDY appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the President slumped into his seat" has the President slumping on the second shot. Why he thought Kennedy rose up following the first shot could be because the President raised his right hand to wave in the Z170s.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/vp9i5v.jpg)

Quote
17.   Harold Norman (3 H 191. ?but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,?) (heard 3 shots)

I'm pretty sure Norman couldn't see if the President failed to smile after the first shot. As to "slumped or something," Kennedy's head nods forward in the Z170s as his right arm raises.

Quote
19.   Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, ?As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.? (heard 3 or 4 shots).

I can't see how Moorman's taking a photo of the head-shot relates to her "actually observed JFK after the first shot and noticed that JFK reacted as if he was hit by it."

Quote
22.   Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought ?the President was ducking from the first shot?)

Allman couldn't see the President's face nor much of the right hand; the "ducking" could be head nod in Z170s as seen from behind.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 02:00:08 AM
Jerry, I thought you were kidding about Andrew theorizing that both JFK and Connally were hit by the first shot and that JFK's only reaction was to stop smiling and waving, and that JBC wasn't even aware he was hit.  :D

YIKES.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 25, 2018, 05:25:02 AM
Jerry, I thought you were kidding about Andrew theorizing that both JFK and Connally were hit by the first shot and that JFK's only reaction was to stop smiling and waving, and that JBC wasn't even aware he was hit.  :D

YIKES.
Jerry editorializes.

 To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.

 Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 05:45:09 AM
Jerry editorializes.

 To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.

 Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.

You're spinning like a top.

JFK clutched at his chest and neck before disappearing behind the sign in Zapruder ?  :D

I know you're not claiming that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot, you're just claiming he was shot in the thigh and didn't feel it.  :D  :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 25, 2018, 07:16:00 AM
Mrs Kennedy wasn't always sitting right next to her husband - her initial focus was to her left hand side on the extreme opposite side of the seat looking away from him.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2dgpe6s.jpg)

She also had two Police motorcycles close to her ears on her left hand side.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)

These photos are very close to when the first shot was fired -  a shot heard by SSA Kellerman.

Mrs Kennedy was sufficiently distracted that she understandably failed to hear her husband utter the words.

She also didn't remember climbing over the back of the Limo - again completely understandable.

You know of anyone else in Dealey Plaza who spoke with a Boston accent in ear shot to SSA Kellerman?
Tony, Could you elaborate on the position of the camera man for the first picture.  The shot certainly  could not have been shot that early.  He has his right arm at rest and then he raised it at about Z190 to wave to the crowd.  There is no distress.  The distress begins when he moves his left arm up towards his neck.  That is the first visible evidence of the neck shot in my opinion. The second photograph shown is a blowup of the Willis photo.   There is a question of its validity when you compare it to a comparable Zapruder Frame Z221 for example? Is there not a major discrepancy?    Is it a fake photo? Is Willis the very tall photographer standing in front of the running girl at Z162 who took this first photo or the second? 
Clearly in the Zapruder Film you can see the umbrella man in front of the Stemmons Freeway sign with  the "Cuban" standing on his RHS.   From Zapruder's angle, the umbrella man remains in the front of the sign - the umbrella being obscured by it and definitely to the front.  We don't see the Cuban at all in the Willis photograph and the umbrella man is shown to be back from the Stemmons Freeway sign - clearly not possible.    Throughout all the Zapruder Film which shows the umbrella, it appears relatively stationary with respect to the road sign and remains always at the front of it.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z221.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 09:01:46 AM
JohnM,

three questions: ....


(https://engagingplaces.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/goal-posts-moving.jpg)

This is why you are a waste of time Fratini. I present evidence that absolutely satisfies the testimony of a trained SS agent and since you can't refute any of what was presented your opening line is to split the split hair into 3 new pieces and from there it just never ends.

Let's review,

Clip 1. Kellerman says when he passes near the sign that he hears a pop, then hears a voice ,then he turns around and sees that the President needs to go to the hospital. This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HssDzDvW/kellerman_in_zap_sign.gif)

Clip 2. shows both Connally and Kennedy reacting to Kellerman's pop, Kellerman says he hears a voice and turns around, just as Zapruder shows. And in addition nobody at the crime scene has ever said they can hear or see Kennedy mouthing any words and nobody has said that they can see Kennedy's mouth moving in Zapruder either. It all over red rover.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp9vx2GP/kellerman_in_zappa.gif)

Btw if Kellerman was absolutely definitively sure that it was the President's voice then he wouldn't need to qualify his voice recognition with "I firmly believe", we all firmly believe a lot of things but that doesn't make any of it true.
And considering that no one who was closer to Kennedy said they heard Kennedy say anything and this when compounded with the above irrefutable evidence means this one really needs to be put to bed.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 01:21:57 PM

The first shot was before the limo had passed the sign.


That's right.  Thumb1:

So where do we see JFK mouthing 'My god, I am hit' or reacting to a bullet striking him before passing the sign ?

We know he couldn't say anything after passing the sign, so when did he say it ?

Why don't we see JFK reacting to a bullet that entered his back before he's obscured behind the sign ?

Did all of this happen while he was behind the sign ?

And even if you think JFK reacted to being hit and said 'My god, I'm hit' while he was behind the sign.....consider the following....

If the first shot hit JFK in the back and caused him to say 'I'm hit' and didn't exit anywhere, then you're saying the shot that hits him as he emerges from behind the sign must be an entrance wound to the throat. Yet there is no exit wound for the proposed frontal entry throat shot and no bullet found in JFK's neck.

As John Mytton told you, 'it's all over red rover'. Reposting Kellerman's testimony over and over won't change that.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 03:03:28 PM
An entrance wound to JFK's upper back circa Z202, or even just before, changes the shooting dynamics completely.

On being hit, and then realizing that he was actually hit (a delayed reaction) means we do not know precisely when JFK uttered the phrase that SSA Kellerman heard from the back seat. I believe that Willis was more than capable of determining that what he heard was a rifle shot. The first shot occurred after Croft #18 and after Betzner #3.

A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat. The bullet didn't penetrate the lungs but caused trauma on the RHS tip of his lung. I do not know why the bullet didn't penetrate JFK completely - it may have been undercharged or it hit something first. At Z202, there was a live oak tree in the way for a clear shot if you are going for a shot from the SE corner of the TSBD.

But that's not where the cluster #### happens - it is the SECOND shot. The second shot must of occurred at a minimum 2.25 seconds later (cycling time of CE 139) some 41 frames later (taking into account Zapruder's camera frame rate) - making it circa Z243.

That was WAY past JC's reaction to being hit. It meant you had another shooter firing at least one bullet at the motorcade. All JFK had to be was  an inch further down on his RHS = plenty of clearance to have a bullet go past him and hit JC.

The third bullet hits JFK in the head at Z312/313.

No SBT but another shooter. You think Arlen wasnt concerned about that? Hence 1) the first shot missed everything and was "lost" and 2) an SBT was a necessity for the lone gunman hypothesis.

So JFK was reacting to being hit circa Z202 and JC was reacting to being hit by a separate bullet just after emerging from behind the sign.

By the time SSA Kellerman turns around JFK had already been hit and likely JC as well. SSA Kellerman didn't see the head shot.

The WC knew that if the SBT occurred as early as Z202, how did one explain JC's reaction taking so long?

JC said he wasnt hit by the first bullet - he was correct.

You can forget about any shot hitting JFK to his throat from the front. I do not know what caused the small neat round hole. But it wasnt CE 399 going through his neck.

Willis heard THREE shots. Are you going to call into question his ability to do so?

SINGLE BULLET FICTION

So now you have JFK being struck at 202 in the back by a bullet that doesn't exit.

And he doesn't react until when ??

When does he say 'My god, I'm hit' ?

You also state "A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat."

This is completely WRONG and demonstrates just how LOST you are.

If the bullet that struck JFK in the back didn't penetrate and exit from his throat, then what the hell caused the throat wound if not a frontal entry ??

Or are you now trying to say JFK was struck in the back by two separate bullets, one of which lodged in his back and the other exited from his throat ?

Take up a new hobby. You suck at this.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 03:52:34 PM
Still LMAO @
"A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat."

Just the opposite is true, Tony.

A non-penetrating back wound makes a frontal entry throat wound mandatory !

I'm going to send out a search party for you, Fratini.  You are seriously lost.

SINGLE BULLET FACT
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 25, 2018, 03:55:16 PM
I believe that Willis was more than capable of determining that what he heard was a rifle shot. The first shot occurred after Croft #18 and after Betzner #3.

If we follow Willis' words":

(http://i58.tinypic.com/rcsuh3.jpg)
"Mrs. Kennedy was likewise
smiling and facing more to
my side of the street."
 
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2kosck.jpg)
"When the first shot was fired, her head
seemed to just snap in that direction ...
she turned to the right toward him"

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z170.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z172.jpg)
  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z174.jpg)
Above: Three frames showing when Mrs. Kennedy began her rightward head turn, the head turn described by Willis as a reaction to hearing the first shot.


It's been said that Croft took his z161 photo long enough before the first shot that he had time to roll his film and snap another (that did not turn out). As the photo that did not turn out was said to have been simultaneous with the shots that killed the President, Croft's post-Z161 photo (the one that didn't turn out) was supposedly taken at the moment of the head shot.

However, I don't believe we have Croft stating those things verbatim. They're characterized that way in a FBI AirTel, which is hearsay and possibly misconstrued. It could be his Z161 photo was taken nearly simultaneously with one of the shots.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg)
Croft Photo (Z162)
  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)
   Willis 05 Photo (Z202)
  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)
   Approximate size of
   Kennedy limousine
   relative to Willis
   photo, if Croft had
   taken a photo Z313
Croft stepping out in the street (for a better sight-line) or remaining where he was to take a photo in which the limousine was barely visible seems farfetched.

Betzner said he was looking down to wind his camera when he heard the first of two shots he later recalled, the latter one being the head shot based on what Betzner said about it. So the winding-the-camera shot he heard could be the shot heard before the head shot. In a three-shot scenario, Betzner has lost track of one of those shots.

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ih3twy.jpg)

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in Z207, he is still lowering his camera and is not looking down. Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter, it could be an argument that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed SBT shot at Z223.


The first shot could have occurred before Croft, Betzner and Willis05. I would think that most LNers believe it was a missed shot.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 25, 2018, 03:58:14 PM
You're spinning like a top.

JFK clutched at his chest and neck before disappearing behind the sign in Zapruder ?  :D


If you are interested in discussing this in an adult way, you can dispense with the emojis and try arguing based on the evidence.

I am not sure whether JFK had started reacting before disappearing behind the sign, although the HSCA photographic panel concluded that he had (1 HSCA 46):

"By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his head. (43) There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the President by this time."

Perhaps you may wish to explain, by referring to the evidence, why such a conclusion merits a chuckle emoji...
Quote
I know you're not claiming that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot, you're just claiming he was shot in the thigh and didn't feel it.  :D  :D
It is not uncommon for soldiers to receive extremity wounds and not realize it for much longer than 4 seconds.  A bullet acts so quickly that nerves are destroyed before they can send any signal.  If the wound does not interfere with function and causes no pain, why do you think he would feel it?  Connally said he never felt the thigh wound and he certainly received it.

The first bullet striking JFK and causing JBC's thigh wound is, arguably, a much better fit with the evidence than CE399 doing all the damage to his wrist and deflecting around the point of contact on the back of the radius to make a left turn to the thigh and end up as it did.  Not to mention the problem that Greer said he heard a concussion from the second shot and Tague said he was hit on the second shot. Oh, and I won't bother to mention the 40+ witnesses who said the second shot was well after the midpoint between 1 and 3....
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 04:09:11 PM
OK Andrew have it your way. Connally didn't feel or react to the bullet that entered his thigh for 4 seconds. And JFK shows a reaction to a bullet passing through his body before passing the sign.

Should I believe you or my own eyes ?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 25, 2018, 04:10:24 PM
If you are interested in discussing this in an adult way, you can dispense with the emojis and try arguing based on the evidence.

I am not sure whether JFK had started reacting before disappearing behind the sign, although the HSCA photographic panel concluded that he had (1 HSCA 46):

"By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his head. (43) There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the President by this time."
LOL! That's been discredited for years.

(http://i57.tinypic.com/hwd8jq.jpg)

Kennedy doesn't sharply turn leftward towards Jackie. His head turns to the fore. Compare JFK's hairline in Z206 to Z225. No change. I don't even see where the wave stops.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z206.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg)

Outside your family, do you have even one supporter of your theory? It's been, what, 15 years since you started shopping this around.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 04:32:01 PM
Nice work, as usual, Jerry.

Too bad the sign obstructs our view of JFK after 206, I'm sure if it didn't we'd see him mouthing 'My god, I am hit'. Had to have happened because Kellerman said so. What perfect timing. JFK disappears behind the sign for one second. And that's the one second when Kellerman hears the Boston accent.  :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 25, 2018, 04:38:59 PM
At the instant the President stops waving and starts to lift his arm to his neck is the instant the shot came in.  I can't see it happening any other way. 
Thanks for the enlightenment on photo sources.  It still does not explain what took place between Z202 and the movement of the umbrella man and the "Cuban" waving his arms at JFK and JC.  You can see the umbrella at the front of sign not off to the back and behind.

I believe the Zapruder film first because of the many frames one after the other.   Obviously this lack of synergy means something is not right - conspiracy starts with the first bullet landing!  The sign is elevated and no sign of the Cuban.  These guys just can't come and go - can they?  There is no logical explanation!  In my opinion, you can see JFK and JC both looking at them with their gaze when they emerge from behind the cover of the sign.  I don't think they were staring at an empty grassy knoll.  The umbrella man was very close to JFK, not off in the distant like the Willis photograph is showing.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z221.jpg
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z221.jpg)
You can already see the umbrella appearing at Z208.   Clearly, looking at the Willis photograph and Zapruder's camera angle, it would be impossible to project part of the missing umbrella to the other side of the sign!  IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY!      
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z208.jpg
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z208.jpg)

So bear in mind, was JC left with a "sucking" wound and a collapsed lung?  At Z394, he looks back from his position behind driver Greer and assesses the damage to the President!  The best evidence of this look can be sign clearly in the Lightbox frames at Z394.  Unfortunately these photos are not possible to put into this post for viewing.  You can see his face more clearly than you can in the Costella Frames.
https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z350-z399 (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z350-z399)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z394.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z394.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z394.jpg)
The face can be seen more clearly in the Lightbox frame z394, just in front of the green flowers (maybe?).  You can look at other frames to note that Nellie has her head tucked down by JFK's feet at this time. You can't dispute their positions and movements and the time it occurs when you review the slides together in "slide show" fashion.  At the very least, he is not collapsed on her lap with her hands on his chest, his head is up!   It is little wonder the Zapruder film has been held in secret for so long, it discredits so much testimony!
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 05:02:23 PM
If you watch the Zap film really really closely you can see a crop circle in the grass of Dealey Plaza with a UFO hovering above it.

You can also see Bigfoot hiding in the shrubbery on the Knoll. Looks like Bigfoot is holding a rifle with smoke coming out of it too.

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 25, 2018, 05:16:45 PM
If you watch the Zap film really really closely you can see a crop circle in the grass of Dealey Plaza with a UFO hovering above it.

You can also see Bigfoot hiding in the shrubbery on the Knoll. Looks like Bigfoot is holding a rifle with smoke coming out of it too.

Don't troll the truth.  I know the truth hurts!  The reality is you can see the Willis photograph modification, masked in with the vertical line (photo aging lol) which just so happens to coincide with the sign's post (really?) and the motorcycle antenna passing up in front of the sign!  Very coincidental.  An obvious indication that this photograph could have been tampered with as I don't see the sign post there.   I guess critical pictures such as this have been fingered and creased so many times because of viewing!  Why?  If you draw a line down you can see  the difference on the motorcycle which should look similar to the other motorcycle in the foreground - might be a tree shadow?  They are both traveling parallel to each other!  Sunlight aberration or indication of a cut line matching the post? and antenna - nice!  The post is not there!
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)


Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 05:24:41 PM
I agree. The Willis photo was altered to cover up the crop circle, UFO and Bigfoot.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 25, 2018, 05:32:13 PM
I agree. The Willis photo was altered to cover up the crop circle, UFO and Bigfoot.
When people are trying to make fun of the obvious, it is obvious they have no answers to the obvious.  If there is no coverup, there is no need to play with the evidence and invent stories like crop circle, UFO and Bigfoot.  Which frames or pictures do you want to throw out?

Obviously, you are trying to make a joke about photographic evidence which shows no consistency!  Why would someone go to such great lengths as to move the umbrella man from the front of the sign to the rear, faraway from the exact position in which the President was struck in the neck region with the first bullet - that is critical evidence.   You obviously want to ignore the photographic evidence available.   On the Willis blowup, it looks like a double umbrella - the one above the umbrella looks like a second umbrella?  Was that scrubbed off and moved around - it now looks like a bush but it would be about the right height that you would expect it to match what you see in the Zapruder Slides but continued to the front!   Just a thought!   
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Steve Logan on September 25, 2018, 05:37:57 PM
That's a new group of dastardly conspirators I've never heard of, The Picture Creasers. Learn something new every day. :-\
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 25, 2018, 05:46:49 PM
OK Andrew have it your way. Connally didn't feel or react to the bullet that entered his thigh for 4 seconds. And JFK shows a reaction to a bullet passing through his body before passing the sign.

Should I believe you or my own eyes ?
Neither. You should carefully look at ALL the evidence and reach a conclusion that best fits all of the evidence.  Where there is a conflict between pieces of evidence, look at the rest of the evidence to resolve the conflict. 

What you think you see with your own eyes does not fit large independent bodies of consistent and independent pieces of evidence. If you ignore that fact, you will only deceive yourself.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 25, 2018, 05:50:46 PM
At Z225, you can clearly see the JFK and JC looking directly at the umbrella man standing at the front of the sign very close to them and the Cuban beside him waving his arm in the air - promptly JFK raises his arms to his neck!   The Willis photograph does not capture this event - the Cuban is even missing. If the Willis photo was at Z202, the Cuban magically runs down from somewhere to appear on the Zapruder frames - impossible.
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z225.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z232.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 25, 2018, 06:25:53 PM
At Z225, you can clearly see the JFK and JC looking directly at the umbrella man standing at the front of the sign very close to them and the Cuban beside him waving his arm in the air - promptly JFK raises his arms to his neck!   The Willis photograph does not capture this event - the Cuban is even missing. If the Willis photo was at Z202, the Cuban magically runs down from somewhere to appear on the Zapruder frames - impossible.
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z225.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z232.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)

LNers don't ignore available images, including those modified or cropped by conspiracy buffs such as yourself.

You've cheated by cropping the motorcycle on the left.

Follow this link for further evidence of DPD motorcycles outfitted with antennae mounted exactly as seen in Dealey Plaza:

http://goo.gl/images/m37mPD
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 06:58:44 PM
You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using critical thinking and sound logic to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.

You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using biased wild-ass guesses to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.

There, I fixed it for you.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 07:04:34 PM
This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.

Are you claiming to be able to see through the sign?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 25, 2018, 07:06:06 PM
You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using biased wild-ass guesses to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.

There, I fixed it for you.

'wild ass guesses'
... like your "IBM" men
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
So bear in mind, was JC left with a "sucking" wound and a collapsed lung?  At Z394, he looks back from his position behind driver Greer and assesses the damage to the President!  The best evidence of this look can be sign clearly in the Lightbox frames at Z394.  Unfortunately these photos are not possible to put into this post for viewing.  You can see his face more clearly than you can in the Costella Frames.

Why do you think the lightbox photos can't be put into a post

(https://1b65352e-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z350-z399/z394.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 07:23:30 PM
'wild ass guesses'
... like your "IBM" men

They were Brewer's IBM men, not mine.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brewers-ibm-men.jpg)

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 25, 2018, 07:35:19 PM
They were Brewer's IBM men, not mine.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brewers-ibm-men.jpg)

His IBM men, your "IBM" men.

That qualifies as a wild-ass guess
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 07:42:23 PM
His IBM men, your "IBM" men.

That qualifies as a wild-ass guess

Huh?  Are you saying that Brewer didn't actually know that they were from IBM?  Sometimes you make no sense...
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 25, 2018, 08:00:14 PM
Huh?  Are you saying that Brewer didn't actually know that they were from IBM?  Sometimes you make no sense...

Huh?

I said Brewer's IBM men
You said Brewer's "IBM" men

I would need to put IBM in quotations-- as you do, every time you mention them--to imply that he was lying or involved in something sinister.

Like you do.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 25, 2018, 08:40:49 PM
You're really not very good at sifting through conflicting witness testimony and then using biased wild-ass guesses to figure out what is possible, impossible or unlikely.

There, I fixed it for you.

Oh my, the bald little devil fixed my post.

Here's a post that actually needs fixing:

"A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat."

BWAHAHAHA

Love the new avatar, Iancoletti
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 09:32:55 PM

This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.

Are you claiming to be able to see through the sign?

No, Kellerman didn't have time to turn around.

Kellerman was out of sight behind the sign from frames Z204-Z219, less than a second.

The first gif is Z198-Z219, just so you can get a good look at Kellerman.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7L1fSvtM/kellermanbehindsign.gif)

The next gif is Z204-Z219 and @ Z204 we can see his hairline and the sun shining off his forehead at the same angle.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FkFvXqQ/kellerman_turn2.gif)

Now when Kellerman actually does turn around he has to shift his whole body slightly forward and turn his torso so he can see Kennedy. For all the frames before and after the sign Kellerman is simply looking in one direction, he may have looked towards Greer and returned his head to the exact same spot but a full on turn, no way.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkDhv5mj/kellerman_turn.gif)

But maybe Kellerman didn't need to turn his body around to see behind and was possessed and could just spin his head?

(http://68.media.tumblr.com/2c998ff81c91737eaa49477e33bf8551/tumblr_olsb7ecKMn1rp0vkjo1_500.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 10:01:05 PM
I would need to put IBM in quotations-- as you do, every time you mention them--to imply that he was lying or involved in something sinister.

Like you do.

I think you've finally lost the rest of your marbles.  I don't put "IBM men" in quotations every time I mention them, and if I do it's because I'm quoting Brewer or somebody else.  What you think I'm implying is just your overactive imagination.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 25, 2018, 10:03:38 PM
LNers don't ignore available images, including those modified or cropped by conspiracy buffs such as yourself.

You've cheated by cropping the motorcycle on the left.

Follow this link for further evidence of DPD motorcycles outfitted with antennae mounted exactly as seen in Dealey Plaza:

http://goo.gl/images/m37mPD
Those are pretty big statements you are making when you are ignoring my prior posts.  Look at my post #335.  Does it not come from an original posted on this site?   Do you as an LNer have any answer for why Zapruder Frames don't match the Willis original photograph?  You seem to think it is all about motorcycles and antennaes - a good LNer that keeps the blinders on a horse questioning nothing!   

From what I have posted in #335, it looks to me that someone has enlarged the Willis photo?  That is the only reason it has been cropped.   Everything I have seen from Jerry Organ or John Mytton is all cropped, none of the original full sized photos available are being used on this topic!  I am clearly pointing out the position of the umbrella man and asking the question why the Zapruder Frames ( including Jerry Organ's own lightbox frames) fail to match the Willis photograph found on this website.

You LNers fail to answer that and provide any answer.   You continue to ignore or come forward with a facetious comment about another CT kook!   If that is the best you can come up with is that I have modified or cropped photos, your ignorance surpasses your ability to look at prior posts and answer simple questions that are being asked.   Why attack the poster and not the argument they have put forward?   Argue facts, not opinions.

If you want to go back to the original Willis photo, go for it.  If you want to compare that to the Zapruder frames go for it.  I want to hear which one you believe is true!  Clearly there is a BIG difference in the umbrella location! Answer the obvious!   You can't have the cake and eat it too!   Which one do you see as true?   It seems LNers ignore logic at every turn possible!  These items are not a match.  Do you accept the Willis photograph as seen on this site as an absolute true photograph?
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
Or do you believe the Zapruder Frames where the umbrella and Cuban show up at the front of the sign?  You can see the tip of the umbrella starting to form in front of the sign at Z206 and it continues to grow from there.
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z206.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z206.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z206.jpg)

These guys came out from where?

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z228.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z228.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z228.jpg)
Answer that question as to why the Willis' photo  doesn't match the 20 frames or so where the umbrella is clearly at the front of the sign and not behind? Admit that you can't and won't.   I am waiting for your brilliant and scholarly answer.   My basis of logic is pictures and not in the written word.  The word, reports and testimony has to match the photographic evidence.   Each one of us can write a book, fact or fiction! I am waiting eagerly for your comment on this umbrella subject matter and these 21 photographs to compare to.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 10:05:35 PM
No, Kellerman didn't have time to turn around.

Didn't Greer supposedly turn his head 150 degrees between 316 and 317?

Quote
The first gif is Z198-Z219, just so you can get a good look at Kellerman.

You call that a good look?  :D
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 10:13:17 PM
Answer that question as to why the Willis' photo  doesn't match the 20 frames or so where the umbrella is clearly at the front of the sign and not behind?

Allan, I'm not an "Oswald Did It" nut, but I'm not convinced that Willis shows the umbrella behind the sign.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 10:14:23 PM
Didn't Greer supposedly turn his head 150 degrees between 316 and 317?

Quote
Didn't Greer supposedly turn his head 150 degrees between 316 and 317?

We're talking about Kellerman, not Greer.

And we have footage of what it takes Kellerman to turn from the initial position to a point that looks behind.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkDhv5mj/kellerman_turn.gif)

Kellerman.

(http://www.dailyjfk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/TRio.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 10:16:48 PM
We're talking about Kellerman, not Greer.

And we have footage of what it takes Kellerman to turn from the initial position to a point that looks behind.

Horse hockey.  If Greer can turn his head around in 1/18 of a second, then so could anyone else.

Note the big smile on Greer's mug.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 10:18:32 PM
Horse hockey.  If Greer can turn his head around in 1/18 of a second, then so could anyone else.

Sure and if Carl Lewis can run a hundred in 10 seconds then so can Al Bundy.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 10:19:48 PM
Sure and if Carl Lewis can run a hundred in 10 seconds then so can Al Bundy.

Talk about false equivalencies....

Greer and Kellerman were both Secret Service agents and Kellerman was 6 years younger.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 10:27:54 PM
Talk about false equivalencies....

Kellerman is behind the sign for frames Z205-Z218, 13 frames. Now since anyone can do it that must include you, how about you show us you turning around and looking direct behind you and then returning to the exact same position in 0.7 seconds. Good luck Fly Boy!

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FkFvXqQ/kellerman_turn2.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 11:14:29 PM
Kellerman is behind the sign for frames Z205-Z218, 13 frames. Now since anyone can do it that must include you,

I guess dishonest "Mytton" forgot the part about "If Greer can turn his head around in 1/18 of a second".  How convenient.

Also, there you go again, pointing an arrow at a blob and saying "we can see..."

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 11:26:18 PM
I guess dishonest "Mytton" forgot the part about "If Greer can turn his head around in 1/18 of a second".  How convenient.

Putting the "false equivalencies" and "Iacoletti's fantasies" into perspective.

When Greer turned he already had his torso facing into the car and didn't have to turn his head and body anywhere near as much as Kellerman who is facing forward and needed to look directly behind.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHQ68TrS/Greer_angle.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fR3KQhMv/1961-_Lincoln-_Continental-_JFK-presidential-limo-720x340.jpg)

And even when you do look at Greer who was seated at a better angle, from the time he turns, surveys the situation and turns back to a point nowhere near where he bagan is more than a second whereas while behind the sign Kellerman had to turn further while seated facing forward and then return to the same position and appear the same as he disappeared in 0.7 seconds.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj2LKR3Z/greer_turna.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkDhv5mj/kellerman_turn.gif)

Btw keep trying, because making you look the Fool give me a rush!

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 11:38:52 PM
When Greer turned he already had his torso facing into the car and didn't have to turn his head and body anywhere near as much as Kellerman who is facing forward and needed to look directly behind.

Whoever said Kellerman needed to look directly behind?  Certainly not Kellerman.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 25, 2018, 11:49:37 PM
Whoever said Kellerman needed to look directly behind?  Certainly not Kellerman.

Anyway you've gone in circles, your head's spinning and you don't know if you're coming or going, let's get back to my original claim that you questioned, can you "honestly" dispute it?

This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HssDzDvW/kellerman_in_zap_sign.gif)

Btw thanks, Kellerman didn't need to look behind till he heard a pop and voices which is all in his testimony and illustrated in Zapruder. Hehehe.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkDhv5mj/kellerman_turn.gif)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WellinformedUnlinedCatbird-small.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 25, 2018, 11:54:37 PM
Anyway you've gone in circles, your head's spinning and you don't know if you're coming or going, let's get back to my original claim that you questioned, can you "honestly" dispute it?

This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.

In your dreams.  You've "shown" nothing of the kind.  You did what you always do -- made a claim, attached some kind of graphic that doesn't actually demonstrate that the claim is true, and just declared victory.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 26, 2018, 12:01:14 AM
In your dreams.  You've "shown" nothing of the kind.  You did what you always do -- made a claim, attached some kind of graphic that doesn't actually demonstrate that the claim is true, and just declared victory.

Since you can't dispute my claim or graphics, there's nothing left to say.

JohnM

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 26, 2018, 02:41:36 AM
LOL! That's been discredited for years.
Obviously many LNs disagree with it. But I am not aware of any actual evidence. It seemed to fit with a great deal of evidence that puts the first shot a bit after z186.

Quote
4
Kennedy doesn't sharply turn leftward towards Jackie
  His head turns to the fore. Compare JFK's hairline in Z206 to Z225. No change. I don't even see where the wave stops.
Who said he turned his face to the left? Witnesses said he moved to the left. There is evidence that he turned his face forward. But no one said he turned his face or body to the left.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 03:04:44 AM
Jerry,

let's examine that possibility.

Croft #18 is the equivalent of Z161 - no shot had been fired.

Betzner #3 is the equivalent of Z186 - he took his photo just before the FIRST shot was fired.

"I took another picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped."


Betzner said he was looking down to wind his camera when he heard the first of two shots he later recalled, the latter one being the head shot based on what Betzner said about it. So the winding-the-camera shot he heard would be the shot heard before the head shot (ca. Z223). In a three-shot scenario, Betzner has lost track of one of those shots.

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ih3twy.jpg)

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in Z207, he is still lowering his camera and is not looking down. So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot does not relate to your belief that a first shot occurred Z187-Z201.

Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter (Z207 when he goes out of view), it would be an argument that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed SBT shot at Z223.

Quote

Willis #5 is the equivalent of Z202

Willis snapped that photo as a result of hearing the FIRST shot.

Hence the FIRST bullet was fired between Z187 - Z201

For the SBT to even be remotely possible, the FIRST shot absolutely had to have missed everyone in the Limousine despite the Presidential Limousine being the closest to the TSBD building at that point in time.

Max Holland went one step further back - he believed the FIRST shot took place even before Zapruder started filming the Limousine coming down Elm Street. That's BEFORE Z133. He further believed that the bullet struck the light pole and a part of it went onto strike Tague.

There is a multitude of problems with that scenario because that's even before Croft #18 at Z161 and there is no indication that anyone is even remotely reacting to anything fired literally above them at pre Z133.

However between Z187 - Z201 is interesting because:

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.


Willis: When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, or which way?

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say.

Willis, who's very near to Mrs. Kennedy between the taking of his 04 (about Z133) and 05(Z202) photos, describes what occurred during that interval:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/rcsuh3.jpg)
"Mrs. Kennedy was likewise
smiling and facing more to
my side of the street."
 
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2kosck.jpg)
"When the first shot was fired, her head
seemed to just snap in that direction ...
she turned to the right toward him"

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z170.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z172.jpg)
  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z174.jpg)
Above: Three frames showing when Mrs. Kennedy began her rightward head turn, the head turn described by Willis as a reaction to hearing the first shot.

Quote

Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building?
Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there?
Miss. WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"?
Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came.


That's the testimony of Linda Willis. She can't see the President when he's between her and the Stemmons sign. She could, however, see the President when he was between her and the Thornton sign.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z162.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg)  (http://i60.tinypic.com/122gent.jpg)

She might have later thought it was the Stemmons sign because of her father's famous photo, which features that road sign.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 03:31:06 AM
In your opinion, when was the FIRST shot fired [Z frame(s)] and did it strike anyone in the Presidential Limousine?

Roughly in the late Z150s. It was a missed shot, in my opinion. Just after that we see the rapid rightward head moves of the Connallys, Mrs. Kennedy and Agent Ready. Rosemary Willis was in the midst of running, so a few seconds are needed for her to slow and stop.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 03:32:00 AM
Obviously many LNs disagree with it. But I am not aware of any actual evidence. It seemed to fit with a great deal of evidence that puts the first shot a bit after z186.

Like those witnesses you cite describing slumping on the "first shot" and it turns out they're describing the shot before the head shot.

Quote
Who said he turned his face to the left? Witnesses said he moved to the left. There is evidence that he turned his face forward. But no one said he turned his face or body to the left.

Kennedy supposedly looking in the direction of Jackie is part of the "severe external stimulus" you cited.

    "At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly
     freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and
     his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife.
     Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President
     goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction
     to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign
     at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his
     hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot."                                                                                      (VI HSCA 46)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 26, 2018, 05:47:42 AM
Like those witnesses you cite describing slumping on the "first shot" and it turns out they're describing the shot before the head shot.
Like I said, you editorialize. When you say "it turns out" you mean "they really observed what I say they observed, not what they thought they observed"

Quote
Kennedy supposedly looking in the direction of Jackie is part of the "severe external stimulus" you cited.

    "At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly
     freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and
     his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife.
     Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President
     goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction
     to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign
     at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his
     hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot."                                                                                      (VI HSCA 46)
Again, you are editorializing. Nowhere does it say or suggest in that passage that JFK turned toward Jackie, or turned his face toward, or was looking in the direction of Jackie. He moved his head and body to the left from the far right side of the car. Left happened to be in the direction of Jackie. Powers observed it from directly behind.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 26, 2018, 07:57:11 AM
That means no one in the Limousine reacted at all from late Z150s - Z202,

In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm

And as Jerry mentioned Rosemary Willis said she heard the shot, stopped and looked back towards the Depository.

(http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary%20willis-dorman-hinrichs-1.gif)

(http://www.jfkforensics.net/E/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-1.gif)
(http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-3.gif)
Gerda Dunckel

Ms. Willis has explained, several times since the assassination, that she looked back at the Book Depository and stopped running because she was following the sound of the first shot.
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2013/12/redskirt.html

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 26, 2018, 09:46:31 AM
Your definitive evidence for a shot BEFORE Willis took his photo at Z202 equivalent is?

Here we go again, I provide proof of Rosemary Willis who ran around the pool eager to keep up with Kennedy suddenly stopping and looking back towards the Depository BEFORE Z202, Connally's testimony of him hearing a shot and looking to his right matches Zapruder BEFORE Z202 and the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches occurs about the same time as Connally's quick turn and BEFORE Z202 and then with maximum ignorance you ask for "definitive evidence" like as if what was presented wasn't enough. And in return all you got is 1 photo that shows nothing from 1 eyewitness who wanted to give his photo some significance and along with all his and his families documentary appearances he was doing alright.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 10:36:06 AM
Like I said, you editorialize. When you say "it turns out" you mean "they really observed what I say they observed, not what they thought they observed"

The Chisms, for example, are two-shot/maybe-three-shot witnesses who describe the slumping-shot as the one before the head shot. You instead cite the first of the two shots they can place in their statements as the "first" in a three-shot scenario.

In their affidavits, the Chisms each describe two shots only. You weakly claim they were not asked how many shots as if it's something that can be surmised from the  affidavits (in a later interview, John Chism said "he heard at least two shots and possibly three"). Since it is two shots initially described, the "first shot" they're describing is the one before the head-shot, in my scenario it would be the Z223 SBT double-hit.

Quote
Again, you are editorializing. Nowhere does it say or suggest in that passage that JFK turned toward Jackie, or turned his face toward, or was looking in the direction of Jackie. He moved his head and body to the left from the far right side of the car. Left happened to be in the direction of Jackie. Powers observed it from directly behind.

I think they were getting at his head facing Mrs. Kennedy.

    "Then during frames 200-202, his head moves rapidly from right to left.
     The sudden interruption of the president's hand-waving motion,
     coupled with his rapid head movements, was considered by the
     photographic panel as evidence of President Kennedy's reaction to
     some "severe external stimulus.""

They don't say his head went from looking to his right to looking forward, an amount of movement hardly worth mentioning.

But if you're right--and the head movement is an inconsequencial amount--then the startling "severe external stimulus" you cited is basically the right hand stopping waving. Geeze, if it actually did stop waving, it doesn't mean he was shot; it would as well mean he simply decided to stop waving and lower his arm to the car rail as he did throughout the motorcade.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 11:02:02 AM
Here we go again, I provide proof of Rosemary Willis who ran around the pool eager to keep up with Kennedy suddenly stopping and looking back towards the Depository BEFORE Z202, Connally's testimony of him hearing a shot and looking to his right matches Zapruder BEFORE Z202 and the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches occurs about the same time as Connally's quick turn and BEFORE Z202 and then with maximum ignorance you ask for "definitive evidence" like as if what was presented wasn't enough. And in return all you got is 1 photo that shows nothing from 1 eyewitness who wanted to give his photo some significance and along with all his and his families documentary appearances he was doing alright.

JohnM
(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0418/26/original-set-jfk-assassination-slides_1_c4a9e98c2d7749fccd6b07366eec6f10.jpg)

Yes, Willis at the time was marketing a set of slides through "Phil Willis Enterprises".

Willis became associated with the capture of the first Japanese POW in 1941. Kazuo Sakamaki survived the stranding of his midget submarine by making to shore where he was captured. Officially, David M. Akui and  Lieutenant Paul C. Plybon are credited with the capture.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 11:56:05 AM
The significance of that factoid to when the first shot was fired in Dealey Plaza is?

Willis capitalized on his brush with fame. In promoting his slide set, it was to his financial advantage to make it appear that one of his slides was taken "at the moment" of the first shot.

But under oath, Willis did the right thing and acknowledges the rightward head-turn of Mrs. Kennedy from his side of the side to the opposite side, caused he said by her reaction to the first shot. She begins her head turn in the Z170s.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Mike Orr on September 26, 2018, 12:46:01 PM
It's amazing that others in the limo weren't killed in the shooting . I think the only reason that shots were also made from the front of the limo was do to the fact that the shooters from behind had not made a kill shot . JFK might have survived if nobody was shooting from the front. It never helps when Greer slows down to almost a stop . We have all " rolled " a stop sign before so when observers see the limo slowing down to almost stopping then there was a case to believe that things were not what they seemed to be when watching the Zapruder film . Connally just caught a bullet that was intended for JFK . So for those who say that it would have been an easy shot , then there were some, not so experts, firing from behind.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 26, 2018, 12:57:07 PM

The first shot was fired between Jean Newman and the Chisms who were at the corner of the Stemmons Freeway sign. The first shot ocurred directly in front of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook, the secretaries from the TSBD, who were interviewed by the FBI in February and March of 1964. The Chisms, Jean Newman stated there was just two shots. The secretaries never were asked. Woodward places the first shot after Z204 and JBC places the first shot when he is adjacent to the Chisms.

John Chism :  "And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot,"

Jean Newman : "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report"


Gloria Calvery : "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was Standing when I heard the first shot."

 Karan Hicks : "The car he was in was almost directly in front Of whero I was standing when I heard the first explosion. I did not immediately recognize this sound as a gunshot"

Karen Westbrook :  "The car he was in was almost directly  in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion. I did not immediately recognize this sound as a gun shot ."

=====================================================

Woodward said the earsplitting noise happened after JFK turned forward and not before.  JFK does not turn forward until Z204+

Mary Woodward
"After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right.
========================================================

The only children on the right side of the street was first the Chisms and then the Newmans.
Mr. SPECTER. When you turned to your right. Governor Connally, immediately after you heard the first shot. what did you see on that occasion?
Governor CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 03:00:40 PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg)
Croft Photo (Z161)
Croft told the Powell Tribune for a story
published Nov. 26, 1963, that he was
30 feet from JFK?s limousine when the shots
rang out at around 12:30 p.m. Central Time."

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z164.jpg)
 
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z166.jpg)
Connally Facing Forward
Connally Starting to Turn Rightward
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 26, 2018, 04:57:37 PM
Allan, I'm not an "Oswald Did It" nut, but I'm not convinced that Willis shows the umbrella behind the sign.

Please state your reasoning.   If Zapruder is filming from the elevated position behind the sign, looking down, how does the umbrella show up at the front of the sign, halfway up?  Look at his angle.    At the same time, where was the Cuban standing in the Willis photo?  In the Zapruder frames, the umbrella  is almost motionless for 20 frames. It does not look like he ran over to the other side of the sign - the time between Z202 and Z206 is too short.  There is something wrong with the Willis Picture.  Zapruder's position is captured in his photo. 

No, the umbrella man in the Zapruder film was very close to the roadside, at curb.   I would like to hear how anyone could explain the position of the umbrella differently than that as shown from  Zapruder's perch in his film.  There is no way it can magically show up halfway up the sign versus where the Willis photograph shows it.   These 2 men were very close and were being looked at directly by JFK and JC.  They attracted their attention   There is a major smoking gun here.   We never did hear until many years later from someone who claimed to be the man wielding the umbrella on a rain free day.  Correct?  Any statement in the WC, or from the Cuban, very key witnesses at the least?
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)
I am still waiting for Bill Chapman to explain why Willis picture is not a fake or why it does not match 20 Zapruder frames.  As Jerry Organ pointed out, Willis was trying to sell his slides and capitalize.   No one attempts to refute this photographic evidence - totally absurd! 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 26, 2018, 05:13:41 PM
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder,...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm

And as Jerry mentioned Rosemary Willis said she heard the shot, stopped and looked back towards the Depository.

(http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary%20willis-dorman-hinrichs-1.gif)

(http://www.jfkforensics.net/E/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-1.gif)
(http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-3.gif)
Gerda Dunckel

Ms. Willis has explained, several times since the assassination, that she looked back at the Book Depository and stopped running because she was following the sound of the first shot.
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2013/12/redskirt.html

JohnM
You are talking through your hat!  What did Rosemary Willis testify in 1978, look at Wikipedia and the HCSA report.

"Immediately after the upright-sitting President John F. Kennedy is first hidden at frame 207 by the "Stemmons Freeway" traffic sign in the Zapruder film, Willis suddenly, and beginning at Z-214, snaps her head very rapidly 90 to 100 degrees westward (completely away from the Depository southwest corner) within 0.16 second to then face Abraham Zapruder and the grassy knoll by Z-217.

"Precisely 0.60 second after starting her westward head snap towards Zapruder and the grassy knoll, President Kennedy's head then emerges back into the Zapruder film view at Z-225. At that same instant, he was still sitting upright, and his facial expressions and arms were already clearly displaying his physical movements and neuro-physical sensed reactions to his already having been impacted by a bullet sometime prior to Z-225.

In 1978, Willis was interviewed by investigators for the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) and she stated that she heard, at least, four loud shots during the assassination.

She also stated to the HSCA that while she was still facing the grassy knoll picket fence, she was attracted to view the quick movement of a person on the grassy knoll who quickly dropped down behind a "wall", out of her view.

Willis was also documented in the HSCA report stating that her father, military veteran Phillip Willis, became very upset when the Dallas policemen, sheriffs, and detectives ran away from the grassy knoll, after they had first quickly run onto the grassy knoll where he thought a shot had been fired from."
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 26, 2018, 05:24:35 PM
Here we go again, I provide proof of Rosemary Willis who ran around the pool eager to keep up with Kennedy suddenly stopping and looking back towards the Depository BEFORE Z202, Connally's testimony of him hearing a shot and looking to his right matches Zapruder BEFORE Z202 and the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches occurs about the same time as Connally's quick turn and BEFORE Z202 and then with maximum ignorance you ask for "definitive evidence" like as if what was presented wasn't enough. And in return all you got is 1 photo that shows nothing from 1 eyewitness who wanted to give his photo some significance and along with all his and his families documentary appearances he was doing alright.
There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right, back toward the TSBD.  She said that when she heard the shot she looked back and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD.  Up to that point she was watching the President's limo. She does not completely stop until z199.

---------frames z202 to z206 at 200 ms/frame --------------------> (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z202_z206_RWillis.gif)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 26, 2018, 05:50:23 PM
Ms. Willis has explained, several times since the assassination, that she looked back at the Book Depository and stopped running because she was following the sound of the first shot.

Rosemary said that she was looking at the pigeons.  From Texas Monthly interview with Joe Nick Patoski:

Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. Next thing I know, right after that, there's another shot. And after that, there's another shot and another shot. We disagree, between me and her (nodding towards her mom and sister). My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I'll tell you why: the first one, you know I'm right across from Zapruder. I'm wherever the limousine is. It's almost like I could...I'm right there. Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one. And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air.... Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and the fragments, you know, everything met. I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 26, 2018, 06:04:15 PM

Rosemary: My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four

I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.

Sure.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 26, 2018, 07:16:21 PM

Rosemary: .....Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder......

Some very interesting aspects.  One thing I have noticed whether it is the Willis photo or others is the fact that the antennaes could be conveniently used for editing.  I was looking at Z199.    It looks like someone deliberately cut and past the section in between the motorcycle antennaes to cover something going on there!   Clearly see the difference in hue and contrast of the section inside the frame there and nice vertical lines corresponding.  Why is that?  I can't use Jerry Organ's lightbox frame but it illustrates it even better than Costella's!
https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z133-z199 (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z133-z199)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z199.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z199.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z199.jpg)
This editing passes right through JFK's body!
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 26, 2018, 07:20:39 PM
I can't use Jerry Organ's lightbox frame but it illustrates it even better than Costella's!

Again, why not?

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z133-z199/z199.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 26, 2018, 08:45:34 PM
There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right, back toward the TSBD.  She said that when she heard the shot she looked back and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD.  Up to that point she was watching the President's limo. She does not completely stop until z199.

---------frames z202 to z206 at 200 ms/frame --------------------> (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z202_z206_RWillis.gif)

Quote
She does not completely stop until z199.

Why did she stop at all and then what are the chances that as soon as she stops less than half a second later she hears the first shot?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 26, 2018, 08:57:36 PM
In the following stabilized clip I've got the shot in the early 150's which is generally accepted as the first shot and as predicted several frames later we have the first of Zapruder's vertical flinches and virtually simultaneously with Zapruder's flinch Connally quickly turns to look over his right shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxNfMdDf/connallyturn.gif)
Of course, there is a great deal of evidence that the first shot was when the VP car had completed the turn and the VP security car had almost completed it and when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, and after z186 (Betzner) and enough after Croft (z161) for Croft to click the shutter again (the latter exposure being at the time of the first shot. Unfortunately, the camera malfunctioned).  There is also evidence (Mary Woodward and her group) that the President and Jackie turned in response to them shouting to them to look in their direction.  There is no evidence that conflicts with this timing.

So why not put "Hey Mr. President, over here!!" in place of the "Bang" and your frames will actually correspond to the evidence.

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 09:00:22 PM
There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right, back toward the TSBD.  She said that when she heard the shot she looked back and saw pigeons flying from the top of the TSBD.  Up to that point she was watching the President's limo. She does not completely stop until z199.

---------frames z202 to z206 at 200 ms/frame --------------------> (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/z202_z206_RWillis.gif)

This claim of yours is absolute nonsense.

(http://www.jfkforensics.net/E/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-1.gif)
Gerda Dunckel
  (http://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-3.gif)

Rosemary is noticeably slowing down in the Z160s and her arms are dropping. She already turned away from the limousine and is looking across the street.

What you did with your Z202-206 animated clip was to edit out Rosemary having turned away from the limousine and the slowing down span necessary to safety stop from a run. You then claimed:

    "There was no sudden action on the part of Rosemary Willis until
     z202-206 (clip below) when she turns her head sharply to the right,
     back toward the TSBD."

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z200.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z202.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z204.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z205.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z206.jpg)

Other than a minute head-turn Z200-202 (which certainly doesn't bring her head to the fore as in Z216), the frames above show Rosemary continued to look to across the street.


I believe she first begins to look to her front in Z313 Z213, getting her head turned that fully by Z216.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z213.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z216.jpg)
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 26, 2018, 09:10:52 PM
Why did she stop at all and then what are the chances that as soon as she stops less than half a second later she hears the first shot?
I am not sure she needed a reason to stop.  She may simply have seen no purpose in continuing to run.

She was obviously running to keep up with the president's car. Maybe she realized she could not keep up.  Also, she slows down as soon as she reaches the grass. Maybe that had something to do with it.  It seems rather odd that it would take her almost 3 seconds to stop running if a shot at z155 (that everyone thought was after the VP car had completed the turn) was the reason for stopping.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 26, 2018, 09:40:12 PM
Of course, there is a great deal of evidence that the first shot was when the VP car had completed the turn and the VP security car had almost completed it

(http://i67.tinypic.com/11he78h.jpg)

By Z150. the VP car has completed about 70? of the turn away from Houston. A right-angle turn is 90?. For all practical purposes, the car is off Houston and I would think the occupants would be looking down Elm by then.

Quote
and when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, and after z186 (Betzner) and enough after Croft (z161) for Croft to click the shutter again (the latter exposure being at the time of the first shot. Unfortunately, the camera malfunctioned).

The Croft events were characterized that way in an FBI airtel--though even they didn't claim the latter exposure was at the time of the first shot. According to the airtel, the photo that didn't turn out was "taken simultaneously with the shot which killed the President." Most interpreters of the airtel take that to mean the head-shot (though the car would be some 150 feet away from Croft by then and his view mostly blcoked by the Queen Mary and agents aboard her). But Croft has never said any of that verbatim.

He told Trask in 1988 that "I can't tell you at this point anything about the shots, numbers, or where they were." He said: "I wouldn't think that I'd be changing the f-stop on it much between the corner and down on the side. I don't know why it was blank." Croft's previous picture was taken on the corner of Main and Houston. Which means the next picture he took was the Z161 photo (which did turn out). I think Croft is confused on some things.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 26, 2018, 09:59:34 PM
I am not sure she needed a reason to stop.  She may simply have seen no purpose in continuing to run.

She was obviously running to keep up with the president's car. Maybe she realized she could not keep up.  Also, she slows down as soon as she reaches the grass. Maybe that had something to do with it.  It seems rather odd that it would take her almost 3 seconds to stop running if a shot at z155 (that everyone thought was after the VP car had completed the turn) was the reason for stopping.

Quote
I am not sure she needed a reason to stop.


Maybe like she said, she heard a shot.

Quote
It seems rather odd that it would take her almost 3 seconds to stop running

Seriously, that's your argument? She was running at a fair gallop and was trying to process what she heard and you expect her to stop on a dime, you try it.

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 26, 2018, 10:25:28 PM
Maybe like she said, she heard a shot.

Or she stopped because her dad called out.

Shaw trial testimony:

Q: After having taken this photograph, Mr. Willis, what did you do?

A: My two little daughters were running along down the hill paralleling the Presidential car there and I yelled to one of them, which is the first thing I did, and then I heard at least two more shots and then I started looking for them and looking down and hollering for them to come back to me and they came running back crying.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 26, 2018, 10:54:34 PM
Or she stopped because her dad called out.

Shaw trial testimony:

Q: After having taken this photograph, Mr. Willis, what did you do?

A: My two little daughters were running along down the hill paralleling the Presidential car there and I yelled to one of them, which is the first thing I did, and then I heard at least two more shots and then I started looking for them and looking down and hollering for them to come back to me and they came running back crying.

If Willis was talking about Rosemary, she had completely stopped running by about Z198 so at what point after Willis took his photo did he yell at a running Rosemary?

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 26, 2018, 11:05:10 PM


Maybe like she said, she heard a shot.

Seriously, that's your argument? She was running at a fair gallop and was trying to process what she heard and you expect her to stop on a dime, you try it.

No. My argument is that the evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the first shot was much later - just after the VP car had completed the turn (VP car occupants) when the VP security car was completing the turn or parallel to the TSBD (VP secuity car occupants), or a bit after z186 (photographers Robert Hughes and Hugh Betzner) or just before z202 (Phil Willis) or about when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (z200 - TE Moore,. Linda Willis).  There is no evidence that conflicts with that evidence.  So the basis for your conclusion, which conflicts with all that evidence, may not be reliable.

Rosemary Willis said, many years later, that she recalls stopping and turning her head in the direction of the sound and seeing pigeons fly from the top of the TSBD.  She did not say how fast she was running when she heard the shot. She did not say whether she had started to slow down before the first shot.  I doubt she would have remembered such fine details.  She just said she stopped and turned to look back to where the sound had come from.   She is running trying to keep up with the motorcade and then starts slowing down when she reaches the grass - but she does not stop until z199. She turns her head in the direction of the TSBD rather suddenly and noticeably from z202-206. A shot at z195 is consistent with that shot timing.  It may also be consistent with a shot at z155 and a slow reaction. The zfilm by itself does not provide conclusive evidence one way or the other.   

You have to look at all the evidence. And when you do, you have to conclude that the witnesses in the motorcade, along Elm St. were either not independent and, for some common reason said that the first shot was 3 seconds after when it really was and they simply forgot that JFK kept waving for 3 second before the next shot,  OR they were correct that the first shot was after z190.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 27, 2018, 12:00:52 AM
Allan, I'm not an "Oswald Did It" nut, but I'm not convinced that Willis shows the umbrella behind the sign.
Thanks for the help!    Jerry has enlightened me. Thanks!

I am still eagerly waiting to hear why you think Willis isn't showing the umbrella behind the sign.  Where do you come up with that?  Open your eyes man!  Zapruder is taken the picture from the pillar above and behind.   His camera shows the umbrella halfway up the sign and on the other side - you need glasses!
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z200-z249/z225.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)

If you look at the blowup, that bush halfway up the sign looks like the remnants of the real umbrella position, but the sign looks clean where it should have come across.   That position looks like where you would expect to see the umbrella coming across at that level.  The lack of the Cuban on the other side of the "umbrella holder" is glaringly missing from the photograph.  It looks like if you combine the "2 umbrella half moons" present in the photograph, you could actually make a full umbrella again!   There also is a fuzzy area just below the sign post that looks suspicious.   If anything I would guess that the man in the black suit with the hat could possibly be the real umbrella man and man pictured holding the umbrella in his picture is the Cuban?   Things are so modified on the Willis photograph that it is pure speculation on my part.   It needs to match the Zapruder Film frames and it clearly doesn't.

When I see Jerry Organ's post about Willis, it makes a lot of sense. He is trying to capitalize on the event and was selling slides.  He might have been a bit of a photograph expert as well or had someone helping him.  Someone who wanted to show this man well away from the bullet that struck JFK in the neck!

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 27, 2018, 12:15:22 AM
I am still eagerly waiting to hear why you think Willis isn't showing the umbrella behind the sign.  Where do you come up with that?

Why do you think it is behind the sign in Willis?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 27, 2018, 12:34:11 AM
Why do you think it is behind the sign in Willis?
I actually asked you why you think it is in the front!  That is rhetorical logic your using - don't BS me.  Already I laid out the reasons for my argument.  You just want to throw it back again in my face in a circular argument?   Break the circle and come out with a meaningful argument.
Okay if you need it repeated, I will tell you again and then wait, maybe you will tell me how Zapruder took the picture from below his level from a gutter!    Look at the position of Zapruder's camera from the pillar up above him.     Compare what we see in his camera - an umbrella half way up the sign and at front with what you see in Willis' photograph.    Zapruder is above him in an elevated position - repeated again!  It is a matter of elevation unless the grassy knoll and Zapruder's perch is below the umbrella man!  I don't think it could be called a knoll then!  Where is the Cuban?

 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 27, 2018, 12:38:29 AM
I actually asked you why you think it is in the front!  That is rhetorical logic your using - don't BS me.

I said I'm not convinced.  And you've presented nothing to change that.  You just declared that the umbrella is behind the sign in Willis.  You didn't present any reason for thinking so.  And it has nothing to do with Zapruder's level.  Incidentally, Willis 5 doesn't correspond with Z225.



 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Mytton on September 27, 2018, 12:58:27 AM

If you look at the blowup, that bush halfway up the sign looks like the remnants of the real umbrella position, but the sign looks clean where it should have come across. 

I think the bush halfway up the sign is just a bush. In the following gif we see the same bush photographed from further down Elm street so the perspective is a little out but you get the general idea.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5y9SCq65/bush1a.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 27, 2018, 01:21:18 AM
Oh my, the sinister Umbrella Man, AGAIN !

We haven't dealt with the Umbrella Man lunacy for a while.

Yippee.

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 27, 2018, 03:46:36 AM
Allen, I believe it a line-of-sight difference between Zapruder and Willis.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/78mf.jpg)

This is the Charles L. Bronson photo, taken about Z225-227. The Stemmons sign is roughly edgewise to Bronson's camera-view.
Willis's viewpoint had most of the Umbrella Man beneath the bottom of the Stemmons sign. Zapruder's view towards Umbrella Man was more elevated. And so in the Z-film the umbrella was seen higher up along the edge of the sign. As well, the umbrella itself was raised more (maybe a foot higher??) in the Zapruder film and Bronson photo than it was in the Willis photo.

I see no reason to believe the Umbrella Man and Waving Man changed where they stood between Willis05 photo and the Zapruder film. There was some space between them. The Zapruder film shows the Waving Man away from the Stemmons sign because he stood on the street edge of the sidewalk while the Umbrella Man stood on the top of the raised curbstone between the sidewalk and the grassy slope.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 27, 2018, 05:52:30 AM
I think the bush halfway up the sign is just a bush. In the following gif we see the same bush photographed from further down Elm street so the perspective is a little out but you get the general idea.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5y9SCq65/bush1a.gif)

JohnM

Maybe that is the photo were the bush was transplanted from lol!   You can't take a photo in one spot and then find the exact spot in a photo taken much further down and transpose it so perfectly as you have just done.  You are absolutely right but certainly that part of the bush can't be seen to be exactly the same from 2 different vantage points at the same point.   Amazing that you can find an almost identical bush and transpose it like that - the camera position is from a way different vantage point but the two look identical.  We just need to have a hedge that repeats itself over a hundred feet! Thank you!!
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 27, 2018, 04:25:40 PM
Allen, I believe it a line-of-sight difference between Zapruder and Willis.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/78mf.jpg)

This is the Charles L. Bronson photo, taken about Z225-227. The Stemmons sign is roughly edgewise to Bronson's camera-view.
Willis's viewpoint had most of the Umbrella Man beneath the bottom of the Stemmons sign. Zapruder's view towards Umbrella Man was more elevated. And so in the Z-film the umbrella was seen higher up along the edge of the sign. As well, the umbrella itself was raised more (maybe a foot higher??) in the Zapruder film and Bronson photo than it was in the Willis photo.

I see no reason to believe the Umbrella Man and Waving Man changed where they stood between Willis05 photo and the Zapruder film. There was some space between them. The Zapruder film shows the Waving Man away from the Stemmons sign because he stood on the street edge of the sidewalk while the Umbrella Man stood on the top of the raised curbstone between the sidewalk and the grassy slope.
Thank you for sharing that.  I appreciate that.   I am open to logical solutions and I can now see the perspective better that has been put forward.  I still think the elevated umbrella in the Zapruder Frames are showing a very close proximity to the car.   I think the umbrella should be further over in order to conform to angular alignment.  The sign itself must be about 4 feet high.   Zapruder's perch is quite a bit west of the sign.
I think no matter which way you look at it, given Zapruder's elevated position, the umbrella man should be over about where the black suited man is in the Willis' photograph below the sign in my opinion and then have the umbrella moved over to match his position.
    To me, that would be the logical placement, matching the bush up above outside the sign!
 
He is being shown on the outside of the corner post of the sign which lines up with the motorcycle antennae on Willis' photograph  The angle doesn't look right.  At any rate, unusual for a man to be using a fully extended umbrella on that day and it appears JFK and JC are looking right at him.  The SS in the followup car as well.  Again for me, I can see this as an attention attraction.   I would never buy into the umbrella having some sort of weapon built in.    I still suspect the angle of the bullet to the neck came would be more logical in a frontal shot coming from Nellie's side from the person whose hands disappear behind the body after finishing the "clap" - very rapidly.  This being when the car was behind the sign in the Zapruder film.  I can't find those 2 people one black and one white? on the Bronson frame.  They must be right at edge and not captured!

Again it has always been my speculation that it was a well coordinated event and when Jean Hill heard 2 shots, she was correct.  A second almost simultaneous noise (shot) from up the knoll will have everyone looking in that direction.  That is from her TV interview on the very first night.
Thanks again for sharing the Bronson film frame and that information which is a good rebuttal - not just none sense.  I assume that was from his movie camera and that it has been enhanced and blurriness removed. 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 27, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
Thanks again for sharing the Bronson film frame and that information which is a good rebuttal - not just none sense.  I assume that was from his movie camera and that it has been enhanced and blurriness removed.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_BRONSON.jpg)
Bronson Photograph
  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_20180925-185216.JPG)
Bronson Film Frame

That is a 35mm photograph taken by Charles L. Bronson taken with a still camera. After taking the photo, Bronson picked up his 8mm movie camera and briefly filmed a sequence that included the head shot.

There's a comprehensive Bronson Album (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/thumbnails.php?album=15) in Robin Unger's Photograph Reference Gallery. He recently added some very large Bronson movie frames from the Sixth Floor Museum.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 28, 2018, 03:48:28 AM
These are interesting line-of-sight issues. The pioneering researcher Robert Cutler of Massachusetts was really good at working these out.

Yes, the two men on the infield are not visible from Bronson's position.

The Umbrella Man seems to be on the sidewalk though I thought he was standing on the inner-curb. You can see there is some space between Umbrella Man and Waving Man for Zapruder and Willis, but that space narrows relative to Bronson's viewpoint. The Stemmons blocks more than half the width of the umbrella from Zapruder's view.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/23k4uba.jpg)

For Willis, the Umbrella Man stands mostly away from the outside edge of the sign and in front of it.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 28, 2018, 03:47:43 PM
Thank you for sharing that.  I appreciate that.   I am open to logical solutions and I can now see the perspective better that has been put forward.  I still think the elevated umbrella in the Zapruder Frames are showing a very close proximity to the car.   I think the umbrella should be further over in order to conform to angular alignment.  The sign itself must be about 4 feet high.   Zapruder's perch is quite a bit west of the sign.
I think no matter which way you look at it, given Zapruder's elevated position, the umbrella man should be over about where the black suited man is in the Willis' photograph below the sign in my opinion and then have the umbrella moved over to match his position.
    To me, that would be the logical placement, matching the bush up above outside the sign!
 
He is being shown on the outside of the corner post of the sign which lines up with the motorcycle antennae on Willis' photograph  The angle doesn't look right.  At any rate, unusual for a man to be using a fully extended umbrella on that day and it appears JFK and JC are looking right at him.  The SS in the followup car as well.  Again for me, I can see this as an attention attraction.   I would never buy into the umbrella having some sort of weapon built in.    I still suspect the angle of the bullet to the neck came would be more logical in a frontal shot coming from Nellie's side from the person whose hands disappear behind the body after finishing the "clap" - very rapidly.  This being when the car was behind the sign in the Zapruder film.  I can't find those 2 people one black and one white? on the Bronson frame.  They must be right at edge and not captured!

Again it has always been my speculation that it was a well coordinated event and when Jean Hill heard 2 shots, she was correct.  A second almost simultaneous noise (shot) from up the knoll will have everyone looking in that direction.  That is from her TV interview on the very first night.
The Stemmons sign is 15 feet from the people you see on the sidewalk and the grass beneath the sign is a bit higher than the level of the sidewalk.  So keep in mind the perspective and positions of the photographers:  In Zapruder's film the sightline to the umbrella is downward so it crosses the plane of the sign at a point above the height of the umbrella and then continues down to the umbrella. This makes the bottom of the sign board appear to be below the umbrella.  In Willis 5 the sightline is horizontal. The slightly higher sign makes the sign appear a bit higher than the tops of the umbrella located 15 feet in front when looking at it from Willis' position.

Furthermore, the umbrella is raised from just over the holder's head in Willis (z202) to the maximum height seen in z225.  It goes from just above the bottom of the sign to about the middle of sign - about 2 feet. You can see this increase in the Bronson frames compared to Willis 05.

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on October 09, 2018, 07:45:58 PM
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5wef81.jpg)

I have been studying and looking at these frames (Bronson, Willis and Zapruder) and trying to figure out what does not add up with them.   I believe there is a fairly major correction in the Willis  photo which was deliberately done.  The bush you see above the Stemmons Freeway sign should be in line with the bush alongside the sign (above the umbrella) in that drawing!  I call it a drawing because if that has been altered, what else has?  This is the only way that Zapruder could capture his view of the top of the limousine without being up 100 feet higher!  We only miss seeing Jacqueline's pink bonnet at Z218-Z219.  Looking at Zapruder's vantage point in the Willis photo, it is impossible for him to see the top of the car!  His line of sight as shown in the picture below does not allow him to see the top of the limousine and Jacqueline's bonnet!
(http://i64.tinypic.com/78mf.jpg)
It is also noteworthy that in the Bronson Film you have a "very tall" man (and his dog?) right at the curbside facing perpendicular to the limousine.  That is a prime suspect if and when the neck shot occurred!  This man in the suit in Willis 05 is at the same proportion as the umbrella man and yet he is right beside the limousine when it passes (curbside) and is at least a car length closer (30 to 40 ft) to the scene.  His size should be closer and should be close to the size of the lady in black - just visible to the front of Clint Hill (LHS) of the first picture blow up I have shown.

The bush above the sign is the match to the one beside it!  Clearly a problem!!!  That sign needs to have coherency with the lady in black shown in Zapruder Z194 (LHS of sign)  It looks like that sign has been elevated above her head when she should be shown at the front of it in my opiniion!  The "white" is bleeding onto the shoulder in the picture from where it was moved. The white scarf? maybe is another lady - definitely see the black in behind her at that frame!

Another issue with the Bronson Film (an optical illusion?) is that we can't see the appearance of the third lane.  It seems to me the limousine should be in the middle of the road so that motorcycles could be driving alongside of the followup car!

Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on October 09, 2018, 09:41:14 PM

I have been studying and looking at these frames (Bronson, Willis and Zapruder) and trying to figure out what does not add up with them.   I believe there is a fairly major correction in the Willis  photo which was deliberately done.  The bush you see above the Stemmons Freeway sign should be in line with the bush alongside the sign (above the umbrella) in that drawing!  I call it a drawing because if that has been altered, what else has?  This is the only way that Zapruder could capture his view of the top of the limousine without being up 100 feet higher!  We only miss seeing Jacqueline's pink bonnet at Z218-Z219.  Looking at Zapruder's vantage point in the Willis photo, it is impossible for him to see the top of the car!  His line of sight as shown in the picture below does not allow him to see the top of the limousine and Jacqueline's bonnet!
You need to study it some more.  Leaving aside the technical hurdles of doctoring a film and Willis' photo, you are suggesting a massive conspiracy.  A much simpler answer is provided if you actually take the time to measure everything and do a proper sightline analysis.  If you are going to compare the Bronson film and photographs you have to make sure the film frame and photos were taken at the same time.  The Willis photo is taken at z202.  The umbrella has not yet been raised.  In Bronson it is 2 feet above his head. In Willis, the umbrella man has the hand holding the umbrella down at his side. In Bronson it is up by his head. The bush appears to be along the base of the concrete wall.  If you draw a line from Willis eye-level to the top of umbrella man's head it is just below where the bush is.  What is the problem?

Quote
Another issue with the Bronson Film (an optical illusion?) is that we can't see the appearance of the third lane.  It seems to me the limousine should be in the middle of the road so that motorcycles could be driving alongside of the followup car!
The light line that you see appears to me to be the road surface, not the curb.  The curb is hidden by the grass in front of it. If the car was in the south lane, you would not be able to see the bottom of the tires due to the curb.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on October 10, 2018, 03:40:01 PM
I think the bush halfway up the sign is just a bush. In the following gif we see the same bush photographed from further down Elm street so the perspective is a little out but you get the general idea.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5y9SCq65/bush1a.gif)

JohnM
Andrew, what I am looking at is the shrub over top of the Stemmons Freeway sign shown on the Willis 05 photograph.  It appears to be similar to the one just above the umbrella alongside the sign.   They are the same type of bushes. If it is above the sign, it means it had to be planted high up on the wall or on the other side - it does not look like a tree.    As John Mytton's gif pointed out, the bush all looks at the same level when you look at his other photograph he alternated the Willis' one with.   If that other picture in his gif is valid, I see no large bush hovering at the top of the sign behind it!   Maybe keystoning is a technique that came in to play here as well?    Some have suggested that has happened with the 3 photographs of Oswald holding a rifle in his backyard at various positions and the background appears to always be stationary.   That was taken with a handheld camera and not one on a tripod.

If that sign is really that high, how are you going to be able to see the top of the limousine (Jacqueline's head)  over the top of it like shown in the Zapruder film?  I know it will take more investigation.   I would like to know the approximate elevation of Zapruder's camera above the roadway where the limousine was.  The limousine was in the center lane.    Determine some geometrical dimensions. .    Once could determine the top height of that sign with geometry and determine its location wrt what one sees.     Some assumptions (throwing some numbers out there) would be
1) 140 feet from Jacqueline to Zapruder,
2) 20 feet? elevation  from camera to roadway difference  at the time of passing behind the sign
3) 40 feet from Jacqueline to the sign corner. 
4) Jacqueline's top of head 4 feet above roadway.

Maybe someone has made this calculation already?  I know Jerry Organ's post with positions may hold more answers if there was a calculation made already.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on October 10, 2018, 06:42:12 PM
Andrew, what I am looking at is the shrub over top of the Stemmons Freeway sign shown on the Willis 05 photograph.  It appears to be similar to the one just above the umbrella alongside the sign.   They are the same type of bushes. If it is above the sign, it means it had to be planted high up on the wall or on the other side - it does not look like a tree.    As John Mytton's gif pointed out, the bush all looks at the same level when you look at his other photograph he alternated the Willis' one with.   If that other picture in his gif is valid, I see no large bush hovering at the top of the sign behind it!
??I see a tree that goes much higher than the extended sight line from Willis over the top of the Stemmons sign.  What do you think happened to the top of the tree?  Did it suddenly disappear from Willis's photo and replaced by a bush that happens to look much like the tree? Why would anyone do that?  This is silly.
Quote
If that sign is really that high, how are you going to be able to see the top of the limousine (Jacqueline's head)  over the top of it like shown in the Zapruder film?  I know it will take more investigation.   I would like to know the approximate elevation of Zapruder's camera above the roadway where the limousine was.  The limousine was in the center lane.    Determine some geometrical dimensions. .    Once could determine the top height of that sign with geometry and determine its location wrt what one sees.     Some assumptions (throwing some numbers out there) would be
1) 140 feet from Jacqueline to Zapruder,
2) 20 feet? elevation  from camera to roadway difference  at the time of passing behind the sign
3) 40 feet from Jacqueline to the sign corner. 
4) Jacqueline's top of head 4 feet above roadway.

Maybe someone has made this calculation already?  I know Jerry Organ's post with positions may hold more answers if there was a calculation made already.
??!! Look at frame z172.  The south curb of Elm is visible above the left corner of the sign to about the middle of the sign.   Do you see Jackie's head above the curb as she approaches the sign? So why would her head not be visible if the curb is visible?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on October 10, 2018, 07:33:09 PM
Andrew, what I am looking at is the shrub over top of the Stemmons Freeway sign shown on the Willis 05 photograph.

Isn't it the top of the tree planted infront of the wall, as seen in Willis 6?
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Allan Fritzke on October 11, 2018, 07:16:50 AM
I stand corrected there is a tree there.  I was looking at Mytton's gif too much and missed the stem!    However, the illusion still is great when you compare sizes of the people relative to each other and where they are standing.  No one seems to know anything about the man and ???? that are standing at curbside next to the President's limousine when the neck shot comes in.   In Willis slide,he looks very small.  There is a tall man standing there in the Bronson Film and someone else right beside him. I tried to blow up a picture to look at it in more detail.  Unfortunately, you need an original to look at.   It appears that whoever had there head next to him, suffered an "erase" out in the Bronson pictures I have been able to find on the internet. 

As well, there is something alongside of him, that appears to look like a dog (object?).    It certainly can't be a child because no hand is restraining them from running out - the man in the black suit clearly has his back to that object and standing on the curb.   
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Thomas Pickering on October 19, 2018, 04:41:58 AM
In my opinion, John Connally was a co-conspirator in the assassination of JFK who did not get hit at all.  Connally being hit was all staged to support the LHO explanation. 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on October 19, 2018, 03:20:01 PM
In my opinion, John Connally was a co-conspirator in the assassination of JFK who did not get hit at all.  Connally being hit was all staged to support the LHO explanation.
In my opinion, you are not entitled to an opinion that is not based on evidence. What is your evidence that Connally was not hit?  More to the point, what is the evidence that Connally, Nellie, all his doctors, all the nurses and attendants to attended to his injuries, the x-ray technicians who fabricated x-ray films and reports, conspired to do this? 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Thomas Pickering on October 19, 2018, 05:02:41 PM
I am not entitled to an opinion that is not based on evidence?  Says who?  You?  Who are you to make such a statement as that?  I am entitled to any opinion I want to have.  I do not like your attitude in telling me what opinions I am allowed to have or not have.  Does the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution mean anything to you?  I wonder.  As for evidence, my evidence is the Zapruder film itself, which exposes John Connally as a co-conspirator in the assassination of JFK.  If allowed to, I am going to be fully exploring that in another post to explain how John Connally is a co-conspirator, one of many co-conspirators.  Once I have done that, then it will become apparent that Connally was not hit with any bullet whatsoever and his wounds were staged.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on October 19, 2018, 05:21:58 PM
I am not entitled to an opinion that is not based on evidence?  Says who?  You?  Who are you to make such a statement as that?  I am entitled to any opinion I want to have.
That is my opinion.

But that is an opinion on what principles one should apply to fact finding - it is a statement of principle, not an opinion about an objective fact. It is my opinion that one can have opinions about facts only if one bases their opinion on evidence. Otherwise you could have an opinion, say, on whether I won the lottery last night. You could say "In my opinion, you won the lottery last night".  If it is not based on any evidence that I won the lottery, what meaning does it have?

I could have said  "Opinions on facts are meaningless unless they are based on evidence".    I chose stronger words which apply to everyone, even Presidents, who want to make up their own facts. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.? Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Thomas Pickering on October 19, 2018, 05:36:08 PM
From your attitude, I thought you were trying to play "Big Brother", telling me what I was allowed to say or not say on this forum.  If you were not doing that, I apologize.  Of course you are allowed to your opinions but please also allow me my opinions freely without attempting to control them.  You can say whatever you want to say but let me say whatever I want to say as long as I am respectful in doing it.  I have a completely different explanation for the JFK assassination than you do.  I am heretic on this forum but that does not make me a troll, does it?  Will you allow a heretic to freely speak his mind here or does everybody have to be on the same page? 
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: Andrew Mason on October 19, 2018, 07:02:15 PM
From your attitude, I thought you were trying to play "Big Brother", telling me what I was allowed to say or not say on this forum.  If you were not doing that, I apologize.  Of course you are allowed to your opinions but please also allow me my opinions freely without attempting to control them.  You can say whatever you want to say but let me say whatever I want to say as long as I am respectful in doing it.  I have a completely different explanation for the JFK assassination than you do.  I am heretic on this forum but that does not make me a troll, does it?  Will you allow a heretic to freely speak his mind here or does everybody have to be on the same page?
And, in my opinion, you are not entitled to have a platform for an opinion on facts that is not based on evidence.  In my opinion, the moderators would be perfectly within their right to delete your posts expressing such an opinion. The right to freedom of speech is not absolute.
Title: Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 19, 2018, 08:09:18 PM
Since when does the US constitution apply to a board run by a private individual in the UK?