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Author Topic: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?  (Read 50928 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #272 on: September 25, 2018, 11:38:52 PM »
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When Greer turned he already had his torso facing into the car and didn't have to turn his head and body anywhere near as much as Kellerman who is facing forward and needed to look directly behind.

Whoever said Kellerman needed to look directly behind?  Certainly not Kellerman.

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #272 on: September 25, 2018, 11:38:52 PM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #273 on: September 25, 2018, 11:49:37 PM »
Whoever said Kellerman needed to look directly behind?  Certainly not Kellerman.

Anyway you've gone in circles, your head's spinning and you don't know if you're coming or going, let's get back to my original claim that you questioned, can you "honestly" dispute it?

This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.


Btw thanks, Kellerman didn't need to look behind till he heard a pop and voices which is all in his testimony and illustrated in Zapruder. Hehehe.





JohnM
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 11:54:00 PM by John Mytton »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2018, 11:54:37 PM »
Anyway you've gone in circles, your head's spinning and you don't know if you're coming or going, let's get back to my original claim that you questioned, can you "honestly" dispute it?

This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.

In your dreams.  You've "shown" nothing of the kind.  You did what you always do -- made a claim, attached some kind of graphic that doesn't actually demonstrate that the claim is true, and just declared victory.

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2018, 11:54:37 PM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #275 on: September 26, 2018, 12:01:14 AM »
In your dreams.  You've "shown" nothing of the kind.  You did what you always do -- made a claim, attached some kind of graphic that doesn't actually demonstrate that the claim is true, and just declared victory.

Since you can't dispute my claim or graphics, there's nothing left to say.

JohnM


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #276 on: September 26, 2018, 02:41:36 AM »
LOL! That's been discredited for years.
Obviously many LNs disagree with it. But I am not aware of any actual evidence. It seemed to fit with a great deal of evidence that puts the first shot a bit after z186.

Quote
4
Kennedy doesn't sharply turn leftward towards Jackie
  His head turns to the fore. Compare JFK's hairline in Z206 to Z225. No change. I don't even see where the wave stops.
Who said he turned his face to the left? Witnesses said he moved to the left. There is evidence that he turned his face forward. But no one said he turned his face or body to the left.

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #276 on: September 26, 2018, 02:41:36 AM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #277 on: September 26, 2018, 03:04:44 AM »
Jerry,

let's examine that possibility.

Croft #18 is the equivalent of Z161 - no shot had been fired.

Betzner #3 is the equivalent of Z186 - he took his photo just before the FIRST shot was fired.

"I took another picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped."


Betzner said he was looking down to wind his camera when he heard the first of two shots he later recalled, the latter one being the head shot based on what Betzner said about it. So the winding-the-camera shot he heard would be the shot heard before the head shot (ca. Z223). In a three-shot scenario, Betzner has lost track of one of those shots.



As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in Z207, he is still lowering his camera and is not looking down. So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot does not relate to your belief that a first shot occurred Z187-Z201.

Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter (Z207 when he goes out of view), it would be an argument that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed SBT shot at Z223.

Quote

Willis #5 is the equivalent of Z202

Willis snapped that photo as a result of hearing the FIRST shot.

Hence the FIRST bullet was fired between Z187 - Z201

For the SBT to even be remotely possible, the FIRST shot absolutely had to have missed everyone in the Limousine despite the Presidential Limousine being the closest to the TSBD building at that point in time.

Max Holland went one step further back - he believed the FIRST shot took place even before Zapruder started filming the Limousine coming down Elm Street. That's BEFORE Z133. He further believed that the bullet struck the light pole and a part of it went onto strike Tague.

There is a multitude of problems with that scenario because that's even before Croft #18 at Z161 and there is no indication that anyone is even remotely reacting to anything fired literally above them at pre Z133.

However between Z187 - Z201 is interesting because:

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.


Willis: When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, or which way?

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say.

Willis, who's very near to Mrs. Kennedy between the taking of his 04 (about Z133) and 05(Z202) photos, describes what occurred during that interval:


"Mrs. Kennedy was likewise
smiling and facing more to
my side of the street."
 

"When the first shot was fired, her head
seemed to just snap in that direction ...
she turned to the right toward him"

 
 
Above: Three frames showing when Mrs. Kennedy began her rightward head turn, the head turn described by Willis as a reaction to hearing the first shot.

Quote

Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building?
Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there?
Miss. WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"?
Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came.


That's the testimony of Linda Willis. She can't see the President when he's between her and the Stemmons sign. She could, however, see the President when he was between her and the Thornton sign.

   

She might have later thought it was the Stemmons sign because of her father's famous photo, which features that road sign.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #278 on: September 26, 2018, 03:31:06 AM »
In your opinion, when was the FIRST shot fired [Z frame(s)] and did it strike anyone in the Presidential Limousine?

Roughly in the late Z150s. It was a missed shot, in my opinion. Just after that we see the rapid rightward head moves of the Connallys, Mrs. Kennedy and Agent Ready. Rosemary Willis was in the midst of running, so a few seconds are needed for her to slow and stop.

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #278 on: September 26, 2018, 03:31:06 AM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #279 on: September 26, 2018, 03:32:00 AM »
Obviously many LNs disagree with it. But I am not aware of any actual evidence. It seemed to fit with a great deal of evidence that puts the first shot a bit after z186.

Like those witnesses you cite describing slumping on the "first shot" and it turns out they're describing the shot before the head shot.

Quote
Who said he turned his face to the left? Witnesses said he moved to the left. There is evidence that he turned his face forward. But no one said he turned his face or body to the left.

Kennedy supposedly looking in the direction of Jackie is part of the "severe external stimulus" you cited.

    "At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly
     freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and
     his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife.
     Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President
     goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction
     to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign
     at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his
     hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot."                                                                                      (VI HSCA 46)