JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tim Nickerson on December 30, 2023, 05:24:36 PM
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Someone should create a transcript of this. It would be nice if we could see the participants. Was that Mark Lane talking quite a bit?
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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2023/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1371.html#Victoria-Adams
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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2023/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1371.html#Victoria-Adams
David, I just had a look at the page you linked to and now have a follow up question.
You basically argue that Dorothy Garner's comments, as written in the Stroud letter, do not change your opinion that Oswald did in fact come down the stairs, unseen by anybody on the 4th and 5th floor.
Fair enough, but what actual evidence (not assumptions) do you have that Oswald was in fact on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired?
Just to be clear, I know of course that a rifle and three matching shells were found on the 6th floor and I am fully aware of the claim that the rifle allegedly belonged to Oswald (which btw I doubt), but even if that is true that still doesn't prove that Oswald was in fact on the 6th floor at 12:30.
So, how can you be sure that Oswald was on the 6th floor?
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David...how can you be sure that Oswald was on the 6th floor?
Because of the totality of ALL THIS STUFF (http://oswald-is-guilty.blogspot.com). (And there's a lot of stuff there too.)
And when you put it ALL together (instead of keeping a lot of those things isolated, as many CTers tend to do), Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt in two 11/22/63 murders becomes blatantly obvious.*
* IMO.
Thanks for your inquiry, Martin.
And Happy New Year!
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Because of the totality of ALL THIS STUFF (http://oswald-is-guilty.blogspot.com). (And there's a lot of stuff there too.)
And when you put it ALL together (instead of keeping a lot of those things isolated, as many CTers tend to do), Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt in two 11/22/63 murders becomes blatantly obvious.*
* IMO.
Thanks for your inquiry, Martin.
And Happy New Year!
Put what together, exactly, David?
A happy new year to you as well, David.
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People will pick out certain items in this interview that they think bolsters their points of view (aka: opinions). I am no different, so here’s one item that I think deserves special attention. At about the 16:15 mark in the video, Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.” The arguments from the nay-sayers that I have seen all depend on Adams’ timing being correct. Yet, in this interview, she clearly indicates that she could be wrong.
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People will pick out certain items in this interview that they think bolsters their points of view (aka: opinions). I am no different, so here’s one item that I think deserves special attention. At about the 16:15 mark in the video, Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.” The arguments from the nay-sayers that I have seen all depend on Adams’ timing being correct. Yet, in this interview, she clearly indicates that she could be wrong.
You are taking the quote out of context. From the way she imitates Belin, it is obvious that he asked his question in a high and mighty sarcastic way and so she answered in the same way. What you left out is that she then asked Belin, rather self assured, to use a stopwatch to time her movements, to illustrate that her timing wasn't wrong at all. Belin not only declined the request but also did not want to know about Sandra Styles.
The way I hear it, is that Adams called Belin's bluff.
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Whatever she had said to Belin almost 3 years before, she has a very different attitude about on tape.
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Whatever she had said to Belin almost 3 years before, she has a very different attitude about on tape.
That’s probably due to Mark Lane’s influence.
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Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec. He stops. What to do next?
Should he continue down to the first floor?
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?
Should he lay low in the lunch room?
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to visit the coke machine & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide. He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool.
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, he knows there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again. And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous. He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk. She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back. Its not a good look. He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn. Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 13 paces to the jacket.
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston. Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck. He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.
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Thanks Tim, that was an interesting interview and finally puts to sleep the fact that Vickie saw Lovelady by the elevators on her way out.
Since the dawn of JFKA conspiracy, the CT's have been saying that Vickie's testimony about seeing Lovelady on the first floor must have been changed because she says she "immediately" left the windows of the 4th floor and didn't see Oswald, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. I remember when you first produced this testimony mentioning Lovelady with Vickie's correction on the same page, and as one, the CT's cried foul!
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtKf7ZwV/adams-vickie-0016.jpg)
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
Now from Vickie's own sweet innocent voice, she repeats again that she saw Lovelady by the first floor elevator.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTSvGKXB/Vickie-Adams-saw-Lovelady.jpg)
We know from both Lovelady and Shelley that they took some time before they re-entered the building and both Baker and Truly don't recall seeing Vickie coming down the stairs, so the only conclusion is that Oswald came down before Vickie left the 4th floor window and Oswald was in time to see Truly and Baker on the 2nd floor! After all, Vickie had a terrific vantage point to check out the "action", and after hearing the shots, racing out into the open doesn't sound like great idea.
It's also worth noting that after hours of interrogation Oswald slipped up and says he came downstairs.
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Btw Mark Lane sounds like a manipulative Scumbag, who clearly had Vickie under his control and when the Lovelady bit came up, the interview was quickly ended, no doubt Lane knew how devastating this was to the timing of Vickie's actual journey.
JohnM
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I think the most interesting thing that is heard in the 1966 interview with Victoria Adams is when she talks about the three mistakes that were made by the Warren Commission during the time she was providing her testimony to the Commission in April of 1964. And the three errors that Adams mentions are things that are completely innocuous and relatively unimportant in nature, with none of the three items dealing with any substantive matters at all.
And yet, to hear many conspiracy theorists tell it, Victoria Adams was one of the many witnesses who has said she had key portions of her published testimony "altered" or "changed" by the Warren Commission.
But if that had truly been the case, then why on Earth wouldn't she have said something to Mark Lane and Mort Sahl about that very important fact during her fairly lengthy 1966 interview when she starts talking about the various things that the Commission got wrong in her published testimony?
But instead of raking the Commission over hot coals for "altering" or "eliminating" some of the things she had actually said during her testimony, she didn't say a single word in her 1966 interview about the Warren Commission altering anything that anyone could possibly consider to be of great value or substance whatsoever. She talked only about three very unimportant things that the Commission stenographer got wrong, which are things that I would classify as merely "typos" and nothing more than that.
After hearing Vickie Adams' total silence in 1966 when it comes to certain parts of her WC testimony allegedly being "altered" before it was publicly published (relating specifically to Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady), it makes me wonder if that rarely-heard 1966 interview with Victoria Adams has inadvertently debunked (at least in part) yet another conspiracy-flavored myth that has endured for decades. That being: the "Altered Testimony" myth (at least with respect to Vickie Adams' testimony specifically, at any rate).
And we must keep in mind when listening to Adams speak in this interview that she most certainly doesn't come across as a fan or a supporter of the Warren Commission in any way whatsoever.
Therefore, I think it's also quite obvious that her complete silence about any alleged "Shelley/Lovelady alterations" during this interview was not brought about as a result of Miss Adams being frightened of what might happen to her if she dared speak out in a negative manner about Earl Warren's Commission.
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I think the most interesting thing that is heard in the 1966 interview with Victoria Adams is when she talks about the three mistakes that were made by the Warren Commission during the time she was providing her testimony to the Commission in April of 1964. And the three errors that Adams mentions are things that are completely innocuous and relatively unimportant in nature, with none of the three items dealing with any substantive matters at all.
And yet, to hear many conspiracy theorists tell it, Victoria Adams was one of the many witnesses who has said she had key portions of her published testimony "altered" or "changed" by the Warren Commission.
But if that had truly been the case, then why on Earth wouldn't she have said something to Mark Lane and Mort Sahl about that very important fact during her fairly lengthy 1966 interview when she starts talking about the various things that the Commission got wrong in her published testimony?
But instead of raking the Commission over hot coals for "altering" or "eliminating" some of the things she had actually said during her testimony, she didn't say a single word in her 1966 interview about the Warren Commission altering anything that anyone could possibly consider to be of great value or substance whatsoever. She talked only about three very unimportant things that the Commission stenographer got wrong, which are things that I would classify as merely "typos" and nothing more than that.
After hearing Vickie Adams' total silence in 1966 when it comes to certain parts of her WC testimony allegedly being "altered" before it was publicly published (relating specifically to Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady), it makes me wonder if that rarely-heard 1966 interview with Victoria Adams has inadvertently debunked (at least in part) yet another conspiracy-flavored myth that has endured for decades. That being: the "Altered Testimony" myth (at least with respect to Vickie Adams' testimony specifically, at any rate).
And we must keep in mind when listening to Adams speak in this interview that she most certainly doesn't come across as a fan or a supporter of the Warren Commission in any way whatsoever.
Therefore, I think it's also quite obvious that her complete silence about any alleged "Shelley/Lovelady alterations" during this interview was not brought about as a result of Miss Adams being frightened of what might happen to her if she dared speak out in a negative manner about Earl Warren's Commission.
Yes, and, if I remember correctly, Vicky said in this interview that she originally waived reading and signing-off on her testimony. However, sometime afterwards they came to her and asked her to read the transcript of her testimony and to sign-off on it. I believe that she said (in the interview) that the minor corrections were made by her and she signed-off on her testimony. So why would she sign-off on the testimony if it contained any other errors?
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Thanks Tim, that was an interesting interview and finally puts to sleep the fact that Vickie saw Lovelady by the elevators on her way out.
Since the dawn of JFKA conspiracy, the CT's have been saying that Vickie's testimony about seeing Lovelady on the first floor must have been changed because she says she "immediately" left the windows of the 4th floor and didn't see Oswald, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. I remember when you first produced this testimony mentioning Lovelady with Vickie's correction on the same page, and as one, the CT's cried foul!
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtKf7ZwV/adams-vickie-0016.jpg)
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
Now from Vickie's own sweet innocent voice, she repeats again that she saw Lovelady by the first floor elevator.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTSvGKXB/Vickie-Adams-saw-Lovelady.jpg)
We know from both Lovelady and Shelley that they took some time before they re-entered the building and both Baker and Truly don't recall seeing Vickie coming down the stairs, so the only conclusion is that Oswald came down before Vickie left the 4th floor window and Oswald was in time to see Truly and Baker on the 2nd floor! After all, Vickie had a terrific vantage point to check out the "action", and after hearing the shots, racing out into the open doesn't sound like great idea.
It's also worth noting that after hours of interrogation Oswald slipped up and says he came downstairs.
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Btw Mark Lane sounds like a manipulative Scumbag, who clearly had Vickie under his control and when the Lovelady bit came up, the interview was quickly ended, no doubt Lane knew how devastating this was to the timing of Vickie's actual journey.
JohnM
After all, Vickie had a terrific vantage point to check out the "action"
Absolutely, and, if you think about it a little bit, she must have seen the people running back toward the railroad tracks in order to know that that is where she was headed when she left the window. And it had to take a certain amount of time for the people who did run back there to get to and past Elm Street in front of the TSBD. In other words, Vicky’s time to leave the window and descend the stairs shouldn’t start immediately after the shots. There must have been a period of time that she stayed at the window and observed what was happening below.
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And once again we have a witness who, according to the LNs, can be mistaken about the moment she left the window (when she clearly states she left immediately after the last shot and is backed up by Dorothy Garner), but she can't be mistaken about when exactly she did see Lovelady and Shelley.
Too bad that Belin didn't take her up on her offer of using a stopwatch to time her actual movements. He must have had his reasons for leaving here, as the only one, out of the reconstructions.
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And once again we have a witness who, according to the LNs, can be mistaken about the moment she left the window (when she clearly states she left immediately after the last shot and is backed up by Dorothy Garner), but she can't be mistaken about when exactly she did see Lovelady and Shelley.
Too bad that Belin didn't take her up on her offer of using a stopwatch to time her actual movements. He must have had his reasons for leaving here, as the only one, out of the reconstructions.
Nutters will tell you they are mistaken even when witnesses themselves insist they were not.
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Nutters will tell you they are mistaken even when witnesses themselves insist they were not.
Must be a couple of terminal bachelors to not know this, but immediately in the female sense is not the same as immediately in the male sense. They encountered police with watches who gave a different version of this worn out story.
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Must be a couple of terminal bachelors to not know this, but immediately in the female sense is not the same as immediately in the male sense. They encountered police with watches who gave a different version of this worn out story.
but immediately in the female sense is not the same as immediately in the male sense
It's only the first day of the new year and we've already surpassed the lowest level of most pathetic LN arguments. Must be a record!
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Must be a couple of terminal bachelors to not know this, but immediately in the female sense is not the same as immediately in the male sense. They encountered police with watches who gave a different version of this worn out story.
When is the timespan between approximately 15 and 30 seconds "immediately"?
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
immediately
: without interval of time : STRAIGHTWAY
I'll make that call immediately
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immediately
Vickie couldn't estimate the time to cross the fourth floor but could estimate the much longer journey to the bottom of the stairs? I could understand if Belin was frustrated with Vickie's attitude.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Running down stairs in three inch heels? Really?
Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running.
Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?
Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels.
Mr. BELIN - You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS - Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.
JohnM
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but immediately in the female sense is not the same as immediately in the male sense
It's only the first day of the new year and we've already surpassed the lowest level of most pathetic LN arguments. Must be a record!
A terminal bachelor it is. I am not surprised you do not know this about women. It was a somewhat cold and windy day. You obviously could care less how scroungy, disheveled, and frumpy you look but women do care.
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It’s very telling when the naysayers express doubts that LHO could get to the second floor in about 90-seconds. But in the same breath express no doubt that Vicky could be on the first floor in no more than a minute.
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It’s very telling when the naysayers express doubts that LHO could get to the second floor in about 90-seconds. But in the same breath express no doubt that Vicky could be on the first floor in no more than a minute.
In a nutshell it is more locked down than that. When they emerge out of the back of the TSBD they encounter a cop in the back of the TSBD and he tells them to go out front. The cop in the back of the TSBD was not in place until 12:36. They then do as they are told and walk back out front and encounter another cop there. He was not in place until 12:37. So what time did they really leave, if by their statement, they hurried through the building?
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A terminal bachelor it is. I am not surprised you do not know this about women. It was a somewhat cold and windy day. You obviously could care less how scroungy, disheveled, and frumpy you look but women do care.
Thank you for making my wife laugh
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It’s very telling when the naysayers express doubts that LHO could get to the second floor in about 90-seconds. But in the same breath express no doubt that Vicky could be on the first floor in no more than a minute.
It’s very telling when the naysayers express doubts that LHO could get to the second floor in about 90-seconds.
It's very tellling that LNs express no doubt that Oswald could get to the second floor in 75 (not 90) seconds, but can never show that he was actually on the 6th floor and did come down the stairs.
But in the same breath express no doubt that Vicky could be on the first floor in no more than a minute.
Vicky Adams only had only 3 flights of stairs to go. The distance between the 6th and 2nd floor is four flights of stairs.
Dorothy Garner was quoted in the Stroud letter as having said that Adams and Styles had gone down the stairs before she saw Truly and a policeman (Baker) come up.
If this is true, Adams and Styles must not only have left the 4th floor directly after the shots (just like she told FBI agents Hardin & Scott, two days after the assassination) but also must have arrived on the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrived at the bottom of the stairs.
Marian Baker was asked how long it took him, after hearing the shots, to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom. His answer was that there had been two trials runs for the WC on March 20, 1964. The first one was 90 seconds and the second one 75 seconds.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.
If the WC timing is correct, Truly and Baker must have arrived at the bottom of the stairs on the 1st floor about a minute after the shots.
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It’s very telling when the naysayers express doubts that LHO could get to the second floor in about 90-seconds.
It's very tellling that LNs express no doubt that Oswald could get to the second floor in 75 (not 90) seconds, but can never show that he was actually on the 6th floor and did come down the stairs.
But in the same breath express no doubt that Vicky could be on the first floor in no more than a minute.
Vicky Adams only had only 3 flights of stairs to go. The distance between the 6th and 2nd floor is four flights of stairs.
Dorothy Garner was quoted in the Stroud letter that Adams and Styles had gone down the stairs before she saw Truly and a policeman (Baker) come up.
If this is true, Adams and Styles must not only have left the 4th floor directly after the shots but also must have arrived on the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrived at the bottom of the stairs.
Marian Baker was asked how long it took him, after hearing the shots, to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom. His answer was that there had been two trials runs for the WC on March 20, 1964. The first one was 90 seconds and the second one 75 seconds.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.
If the WC timing is correct, Truly and Baker must have arrived at the bottom of the stairs on the 1st floor about a minute after the shots.
Tests show 48 sec for Oswald to get to 2nd floor, without running.
Adams was on the first floor at the same time as Baker.... Adams exited to the dock before Baker got very near.
The main problem with Adams is that Adams seems to have taken a few minutes to get to near the grassy knoll carpark area, where she was told to go back.
How in hell did it take Adams (& Styles) minutes to get from the Houston dock to near the carpark? They must have dallied.
That is the main problem imo.
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Tests show 48 sec for Oswald to get to 2nd floor, without running.
Adams was on the first floor at the same time as Baker.... Adams exited to the dock before Baker got very near.
The main problem with Adams is that Adams seems to have taken a few minutes to get to near the grassy knoll carpark area, where she was told to go back.
How in hell did it take Adams (& Styles) minutes to get from the Houston dock to near the carpark? They must have dallied.
That is the main problem imo.
Adams seems to have taken a few minutes to get to near the grassy knoll carpark area, where she was told to go back.
Seems? Where did you get this information from?
If you want a problem that needs to be explained, try this one; After Adams and Styles were told by a police man to return to the building, they went to the front entrance at Elm street and when the arrived there, Styles, re-entered the building before it was sealed of. Adams stayed outside a bit longer and found herself being stopped from re-entering by the officers who had sealed of the building. So, how could Styles get to the front office and re-enter the, still unsealed, building if the women did not leave the 4th floor at the time Adams said they did?
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If you look at the Bell film linked in posts 3 &4 of this thread: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3893.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3893.0.html) the aftermath of the shots can be seen. From appearances, it appears to me that people didn’t begin to cross Elm Street and run up the grassy knoll until after the camera cars (convertibles) had left Dealey Plaza. Mark Tyler has the camera cars leaving Dealey Plaza approximately one minute and fifteen seconds after the shots were fired. It seems to me that Vicky Adams must have stayed at the window until people were running past Elm Street and towards the railroad yards. Otherwise, how would she know that she wanted to go back there to find out what was going on?
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If you look at the Bell film linked in posts 3 &4 of this thread: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3893.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3893.0.html) the aftermath of the shots can be seen. From appearances, it appears to me that people didn’t begin to cross Elm Street and run up the grassy knoll until after the camera cars (convertibles) had left Dealey Plaza. Mark Tyler has the camera cars leaving Dealey Plaza approximately one minute and fifteen seconds after the shots were fired. It seems to me that Vicky Adams must have stayed at the window until people were running past Elm Street and towards the railroad yards. Otherwise, how would she know that she wanted to go back there to find out what was going on?
From appearances, it appears to me
It seems to me
Isn't just too bad that "it appears to me" and "it seems to me" isn't actual evidence of anything, except perhaps a biased opinion?
Otherwise, how would she know that she wanted to go back there to find out what was going on?
Where does Adams say that's what she wanted to do? It isn't in her FBI statement of 11/23/63 nor is it her WC testimony. The simple fact is that the stairs (and elevators) in the back of the building offered her the fastest way to get out of the building and Adams would have known that.
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Adams seems to have taken a few minutes to get to near the grassy knoll carpark area, where she was told to go back.
Seems? Where did you get this information from?
If you want a problem that needs to be explained, try this one; After Adams and Styles were told by a police man to return to the building, they went to the front entrance at Elm street and when the arrived there, Styles, re-entered the building before it was sealed of. Adams stayed outside a bit longer and found herself being stopped from re-entering by the officers who had sealed of the building. So, how could Styles get to the front office and re-enter the, still unsealed, building if the women did not leave the 4th floor at the time Adams said they did?
I deduced this information. (1) Adams exited the dock at say 100 sec. (2) An Officer took sentry on the railway line between the grassy knoll carpark & the TSBD at say 300 sec. (3) Adams should have been able to join the throng in the carpark well before 300 sec, unless (4) Adams took more than 200 sec to get to the sentry. (5) Adams should have been able to make her way along & over some rails & rough ground to the carpark in less than 100 sec, which (6) is a problem.
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Miss Adams: Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks.
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She heard the shots and immediately ran down the back stairs. Sandra Styles confirmed it b/c she ran with her.
Dorothy Garner confirmed it happened before the cop and building manager passed the 4th floor.
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I deduced this information. (1) Adams exited the dock at say 100 sec. (2) An Officer took sentry on the railway line between the grassy knoll carpark & the TSBD at say 300 sec. (3) Adams should have been able to join the throng in the carpark well before 300 sec, unless (4) Adams took more than 200 sec to get to the sentry. (5) Adams should have been able to make her way along & over some rails & rough ground to the carpark in less than 100 sec, which (6) is a problem.
So, it's speculation. Got it.
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Miss Adams: Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks.
You are aware, are you not, that there is a railroad track directly next to the TSBD annex which goes behind the loading dock?
So, Adams and Styles, after leaving the loading dock were always going to be running "to the railroad tracks".
The decision to run there could have easily be made just after they left the loading dock. And it wouldn't have been a difficult decision to make, as they knew that the shots were fired at the motorcade as it passed the grassy knoll.
There wouldn't have been much point in running in the other direction, would it now?
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From her FBI statement:
“Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.“
I have never heard of anyone saying people other than Adams & Styles were running around the northeast corner of the TSBD towards the railroad yard. And the fact that Adams said “had observed” indicates to me that they must have seen them running from the fourth floor window. If not, I think that it would have made better sense for them to use the elevator and front door to get to Elm Street where the shooting occurred.
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So, it's speculation. Got it.
Based on statements.
Anyhow, my speculation is better than your factoids.
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Based on statements.
Anyhow, my speculation is better than your factoids.
Hiliarious and pathetically sad at the same time.
Pardon me, oh great one, if I have offended you :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Btw, it's not really my problem that you clearly do not know the evidence in this case. It's not a factoid that Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before it was locked down at around 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness). It is a fact. It's also a fact that Styles was photographed standing near the front entrance steps just prior to the re-entry, so we know she was indeed there at that time. Now, in case you can't figure this out by yourself, this would mean that Adams and Styles only had about 5 minutes to walk three sides of the building and partly on a railroad track to get from the loading dock, on high heels, to the front entrance. That alone destroys your speculation.
Perhaps your next bit of speculation will be that they flew to the front entrance, could that be?
Please try to learn the evidence before you say something stupid again.
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From her FBI statement:
“Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.“
I have never heard of anyone saying people other than Adams & Styles were running around the northeast corner of the TSBD towards the railroad yard. And the fact that Adams said “had observed” indicates to me that they must have seen them running from the fourth floor window. If not, I think that it would have made better sense for them to use the elevator and front door to get to Elm Street where the shooting occurred.
I have never heard of anyone saying people other than Adams & Styles were running around the northeast corner of the TSBD towards the railroad yard.
That's because nobody (to my knowledge) has ever said that and they did in fact run towards the railroad yard.
And the fact that Adams said “had observed” indicates to me that they must have seen them running from the fourth floor window.
I think you mean Styles, but regardless, it can indicate that to you as much as you like, but that doesn't mean it's true. They could just as easily have seen people running towards the railway yard when they arrived on the loading dock.
If not, I think that it would have made better sense for them to use the elevator and front door to get to Elm Street where the shooting occurred.
Trying to explain why somebody did something by arguing what, in your opinion, they should have done differently if your assumption isn't correct is not only a flawed argument, it's also a very weak one.
You are trying to read way too much into a choice of words by the FBI agent who wrote the FD 302 report on Styles.
You are also ignoring the fact that there is no argument about the route Adams and Styles took after leaving the TSBD at the back; towards the railroad tracks (where a police man told then to return to the building), along the side of the TSBD annex and along the front of the building towards the main entrance. There also can not be any argument about the fact that Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down (at around 1:36, according to Sergeant Harkness) and that she was photographed standing near the front entrance steps moments earlier. This means that Adams and Styles, at best, only had a 5 minute window to complete their journey from they arrival at the loading dock to the front entrance. Any additional time they would have spent at the window would reduce the time frame available to them. So, unless you are willing to argue that these women, wearing high heels shoes, could have managed to walk around three sides of the building, partly on railroad tracks, you really haven't got much of a case other than your assumption that they stayed at the window longer than Adams said.
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CE 1381 (March 23, 1964) Statement from Victoria Adams:
Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.
Again, I have seen no evidence that anyone other than Adams and Styles were running towards the railroad yard from the area of the northeast corner of the TSBD. However, the fourth floor window, where the ladies were watching the motorcade from, provides a great vantage point for “observing other people running” in the direction of the railroad yards. But not until at least a minute and 15 seconds after the shots.
I am not arguing this. Just explaining my point of view. Believe whatever you wish. I couldn’t care less.
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CE 1381 (March 23, 1964) Statement from Victoria Adams:
Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.
Again, I have seen no evidence that anyone other than Adams and Styles were running towards the railroad yard from the area of the northeast corner of the TSBD. However, the fourth floor window, where the ladies were watching the motorcade from, provides a great vantage point for “observing other people running” in the direction of the railroad yards. But not until at least a minute and 15 seconds after the shots.
I am not arguing this. Just explaining my point of view. Believe whatever you wish. I couldn’t care less.
If you are not arguing it, why do you bring it up? Of course you are arguing it!
It seems your point of view is seriously flawed, because if Adams and Styles had waited at least 75 seconds before running down the stairs they would have encountered Truly and Baker.
Believe whatever you wish. I couldn’t care less.
Why so touchy? I can't help it that your point of view does not match the known facts...
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::)
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How does it feel when you run out of arguments?
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Further confirmation that Adams and Styles saw people running from the fourth floor window:
CE 1381 Sandra Styles statement to the FBI (March 19, 1964):
I recall that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, while watching the motorcade at sometime between 12 :15 PM and 12:30 PM, possibly about 12:20 I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks . I was unaware of the place
the shots came from . I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. VICTORIA ADAMS and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door .
Combine this with Adams’ CE1381 statement:
“Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.“
It appears obvious to me that they were still at the fourth floor window when they observed people were running toward the railroad yards. And that this observation caused them to decide to go to the back stairs and door instead of out the front door via the elevator to Elm Street.
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People were running in all directions it was chaos. The girls left immediately.
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Further confirmation that Adams and Styles saw people running from the fourth floor window:
CE 1381 Sandra Styles statement to the FBI (March 19, 1964):
I recall that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, while watching the motorcade at sometime between 12 :15 PM and 12:30 PM, possibly about 12:20 I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks . I was unaware of the place
the shots came from . I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. VICTORIA ADAMS and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door .
Combine this with Adams’ CE1381 statement:
“Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.“
It appears obvious to me that they were still at the fourth floor window when they observed people were running toward the railroad yards. And that this observation caused them to decide to go to the back stairs and door instead of out the front door via the elevator to Elm Street.
You keep on repeating the same flawed argument, filled with assumptions, and ignore the fact the we know that they took the stairs at the back of the building. Those same steps were used by Truly and Baker, who had a brief encounter with Oswald on the 2nd floor about 90 seconds after the shots and then climbed up the stairs further. If, as you insist, Adams and Styles did not leave the window on the 4th floor until 75 seconds after the shots they would have run into Baker and Truly as they were coming up, and that simply didn't happen.
No matter how often you repeat it, your argument simply does not fit the known facts and goes nowhere fast.
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Hiliarious and pathetically sad at the same time.
Pardon me, oh great one, if I have offended you :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Btw, it's not really my problem that you clearly do not know the evidence in this case. It's not a factoid that Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before it was locked down at around 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness). It is a fact. It's also a fact that Styles was photographed standing near the front entrance steps just prior to the re-entry, so we know she was indeed there at that time. Now, in case you can't figure this out by yourself, this would mean that Adams and Styles only had about 5 minutes to walk three sides of the building and partly on a railroad track to get from the loading dock, on high heels, to the front entrance. That alone destroys your speculation.
Perhaps your next bit of speculation will be that they flew to the front entrance, could that be?
Please try to learn the evidence before you say something stupid again.
So, u are speculating that an Officer or Officers took sentry near the railtracks between the TSBD & the grassy knoll carpark well before 300 sec after the shooting.
I said about 300 sec after.
Is my speculation better than yours?
I guess that it would be difficult to re-find the names of Officers, & re-find whether they were ordered to take sentry (or their own decision).
And even so it might be difficult to calculate the timelines.
Help needed.
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Excerpt from “The Girl On The Stairs” by Barry Ernst (page 34) and Warren Report (page 154):
If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well.
Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.”
I believe that Vicky Adams was miffed when she found out that the WC concluded that she actually was wrong without performing a stopwatch trial of her activity. However, it isn’t simply a matter of doing a stopwatch trial unless it can be established approximately when she actually left the window. A look at the Bell film that I linked on an earlier post in this thread (via another thread) shows us that even after a minute and fifteen seconds there still wasn’t people running across Elm Street and up the grassy knoll towards the railroad yards. And since both Adams’ and Styles’ statements to the FBI indicate they saw people running toward the railroad yards, it follows that they must have still been at the fourth floor window at least until after the 1-minute and 15-seconds after the shots. Otherwise there was no opportunity for them to see the people running during their trek downstairs.
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People were running as soon as the limo left. - Newman and wife "hit the dirt"
There is no way to know V A waited until she saw - what we see in the Bell film before running. you're just making that up.
She said it. Styles said. and Garner said it - and it was before the cop came up. The girls left immediately.
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So, u are speculating that an Officer or Officers took sentry near the railtracks between the TSBD & the grassy knoll carpark well before 300 sec after the shooting.
I said about 300 sec after.
Is my speculation better than yours?
No, I'm not speculating at all. I've stated the fact that Adams told the WC that a police officer was there who told her to go back to the building. As Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down at around 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness) the encounter with the officer most have happened between the time of the shots (12:30) and Styles' re-entry (12:36). I don't need to speculate if an officer was there before or after 300 seconds after the shooting. The witnesses themselves put the officer there between 12:30 and 12:36 and the latter time needs of course to be reduced by the time Adams and Styles needed to walk along side the annex and passed the front of the building.
I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand. A motorcycle cop jumped off his bike and ran up the grassy knoll to the railway yard within a minute of the shooting. Do you really think he was the only one who got there so fast?
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Excerpt from “The Girl On The Stairs” by Barry Ernst (page 34) and Warren Report (page 154):
If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well.
Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.”
I believe that Vicky Adams was miffed when she found out that the WC concluded that she actually was wrong without performing a stopwatch trial of her activity. However, it isn’t simply a matter of doing a stopwatch trial unless it can be established approximately when she actually left the window. A look at the Bell film that I linked on an earlier post in this thread (via another thread) shows us that even after a minute and fifteen seconds there still wasn’t people running across Elm Street and up the grassy knoll towards the railroad yards. And since both Adams’ and Styles’ statements to the FBI indicate they saw people running toward the railroad yards, it follows that they must have still been at the fourth floor window at least until after the 1-minute and 15-seconds after the shots. Otherwise there was no opportunity for them to see the people running during their trek downstairs.
I think that Adams might have been wrong that they saw people running west before Adams left the window.
On the other hand we know that the African American gentleman (& his wife & son)(on the grass on the south side of Elm)(name not known) that jfk waved to (just before jfk was shot at Z218) ran west immediately.
The gentleman cannot be seen in Bell. He ran well before Bell.
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No, I'm not speculating at all. I've stated the fact that Adams told the WC that a police officer was there who told her to go back to the building. As Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down at around 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness) the encounter with the officer most have happened between the time of the shots (12:30) and Styles' re-entry (12:36). I don't need to speculate if an officer was there before or after 300 seconds after the shooting. The witnesses themselves put the officer there between 12:30 and 12:36 and the latter time needs of course to be reduced by the time Adams and Styles needed to walk along side the annex and passed the front of the building.
I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand. A motorcycle cop jumped off his bike and ran up the grassy knoll to the railway yard within a minute of the shooting. Do you really think he was the only one who got there so fast?
I seem to recall that a number of Officers took sentry around the west & north of the TSBD. Some were commanded to. And some i think did so themselves.
I doubt that any Officer from the motorcade confronted Adams.
Later or much later the grassy knoll carpark is full of gawkers & Officers etc.
But i think that the TSBD was encircled by Officers at an early time. No one was allowed out.
Some (eg Adams) who had come out were sent back in (but that sentry remained at his post)(he could not accompany Adams).
Some who were already out were allowed back in.
I think that early on the TSBD was not on Decker's Curry's radar. I think the triple underpass was on their radar.
Anyhow it would/will be difficult i think to put a timeline on when Officers started to encircle the TSBD.
I still say that it took a long time. I reckon 300 sec. Above i said at an early time, ie 300 sec is i reckon early, very early.
But Adams suggests much less than 300 sec (ie about say 200 sec). But 200 sec is way way too early (alltho it accords with what u said).
Just speculating.
It would be nice to find all of the references re Officers' actions re taking sentry.
The TSBD main building is 100ft by 100ft. The distance from the southwest cnr of the TSBD main building to the north end of the paling fence at the grassy knoll carpark is 200ft
If Adams followed the tracks at the back of the TSBD all the way from the dock to the paling fence then that would be 330ft (ie along that diagonal).
But the extension of little Elm St crosses that track 40ft short of the paling fence (290ft). This cross-point is probly about where Adams got to.
And then from the cross-point back to the front door of the TSBD is 260ft.
290ft plus 260ft is 550ft of walking for Adams (after exiting the dock). At 6ft/sec (4mph) that would take 48sec plus 43sec = 91sec.
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Excerpt from “The Girl On The Stairs” by Barry Ernst (page 34) and Warren Report (page 154):
If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well.
Vicky Adams says Belin asked her if she could be mistaken about the timing. And she says her answer to Belin’s question was “Yes sir, there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong.”
I believe that Vicky Adams was miffed when she found out that the WC concluded that she actually was wrong without performing a stopwatch trial of her activity. However, it isn’t simply a matter of doing a stopwatch trial unless it can be established approximately when she actually left the window. A look at the Bell film that I linked on an earlier post in this thread (via another thread) shows us that even after a minute and fifteen seconds there still wasn’t people running across Elm Street and up the grassy knoll towards the railroad yards. And since both Adams’ and Styles’ statements to the FBI indicate they saw people running toward the railroad yards, it follows that they must have still been at the fourth floor window at least until after the 1-minute and 15-seconds after the shots. Otherwise there was no opportunity for them to see the people running during their trek downstairs.
You can be as stubborn as you want and believe whatever you want, but when you make a time line based up all the available factual information the only thing that doesn't fit is that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. What does fit is that she actually saw them in the same area next to the TSBD annex where a police man stopped them and told them to go back into the building. The testimony of Shelley and Lovelady puts both men at exactly that position at the right time. They said they were at the front of the building when they heard the shots and then ran along the front side of the building to the parking lot near the railway tracks.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
This combined testimony shows that Shelley and Lovelady both saw Truly and Baker just prior to going into the building at the front entrance when they were already walking/running towards the parking lot at the West side of the building.
If you have Adams and Styles leaving the window directly after the shots to go down the stairs, and if you have Shelley and Lovelady starting to walk/run to the railroad track next to the building just when Truly and Baker entered the building, they could very well have ended up at the West side of the building at roughly the same time. So, It isn't so much whether Adams saw both men, which she probably did, but rather the location where she saw them.
What blows your theory out of the water is the fact that we know that if Adams and Styles had really waited 75 seconds after the shots they would have encountered Truly and Baker on the stairs, which they didn't. We also know that Dorothy Garner told Martha Stroud that the girls had gone down the stairs before Truly and a police man come up. We know that it took Baker roughly 90 seconds to briefly encounter Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. After that short encounter they continued to go up the stairs. So, if Adams and Styles started to go down the stairs at roughly 85 to 90 seconds after the shots and Baker and Truly left the 2nd floor at roughly 90 to 95 seconds after the shots, there is no way that they wouldn't have bumped into eachother on the stairs.
Adams said it took them about a minute to go down the stairs and out the building onto the loading dock. We also know that Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down (at 12:36), so if they left the window on the 4th floor at 12:31:15 as you claim and they needed a minute to get to the loading dock, they only would have had only 4 minutes and 45 seconds to run from the loading dock (on high heels) along three sides of the building (meeting the officer somewhere in between) to get to the front entrance. There is IMO no way that could have happened.
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I seem to recall that a number of Officers took sentry around the west & north of the TSBD. Some were commanded to. And some i think did so themselves.
I doubt that any Officer from the motorcade confronted Adams.
Later or much later the grassy knoll carpark is full of gawkers & Officers etc.
But i think that the TSBD was encircled by Officers at an early time. No one was allowed out.
Some (eg Adams) who had come out were sent back in (but that sentry remained at his post)(he could not accompany Adams).
Some who were already out were allowed back in.
I think that early on the TSBD was not on Decker's Curry's radar. I think the triple underpass was on their radar.
Anyhow it would/will be difficult i think to put a timeline on when Officers started to encircle the TSBD.
I still say that it took a long time. I reckon 300 sec. Above i said at an early time, ie 300 sec is i reckon early, very early.
But Adams suggests much less than 300 sec (ie about say 200 sec). But 200 sec is way way too early (alltho it accords with what u said).
Just speculating.
It would be nice to find all of the references re Officers' actions re taking up sentry.
When officers took up positions after being ordered to do so isn't really all that significant. We know from Sergeant Harkness that the order to lock down the building didn't come until 12:36 and that the back was locked down first.
But there were officers in or near the back of the building before that. Adams said in the interview that when she arrived at the loading dock (around one minute after the shots) she saw a uniformed police man standing near Houston street talking to a person in plain clothes. So, if there was an officer at the East side of the building, there could just as easily have been one at the West side, near the railroad tracks.
Also, please take note of what Shelley said in his testimony (as quoted in the previous post)!
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
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When officers took up positions after being ordered to do so isn't really all that significant. We know from Sergeant Harkness that the order to lock down the building didn't come until 12:36 and that the back was locked down first.
But there were officers in or near the back of the building before that. Adams said in the interview that when she arrived at the loading dock (around one minute after the shots) she saw a uniformed police man standing near Houston street talking to a person in plain clothes. So, if there was an officer at the East side of the building, there could just as easily have been one at the West side, near the railroad tracks.
Also, please take note of what Shelley said in his testimony (as quoted in the previous post)!
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Yes. U would think that the unknown sentry Officer & S&L & A&S would have all met at about the rail/deadend crossing. At least at the end of the "a little while".
Except that the sentry had to have taken imo at least 300sec.
Unless he had taken up his sentry of his own volition (looking more & more likely).
And, that sentry post was over near the TSBD, ie A&S never got close to the rail/deadend crossing point, ie A&S never met S&L at that time.
But it looks like S&L snuck over & into the side entry ramp to the TSBD without meeting the sentry Officer, or at least he woznt worried about them entering, he was looking for exiters.
Obviously by that time there must have been a sentry at the iron gates into that dock (ie the iron gates off the Elm St deadend). But S&L must have snuck across to the side ramp without worrying that sentry also (no need to try their luck with him when they could sneek into the TSBD via the ramp entry).
On the other hand praps S&L did not have any clue that the TSBD might be in lockdown, ie they entered via the side ramp without a second thort.
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At the end of the day, if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them. And the Stroud document doesn't say that Garner(who btw was recalling these events many months later) was constantly monitoring the rear stairs, Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker. End of Story! Case Closed!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGJCy2RX/Stroud-Vickie-Adams.png)
JohnM
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At the end of the day, if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them. And the Stroud document doesn't say that Garner(who btw was recalling these events many months later) was constantly monitoring the rear stairs, Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker. End of Story! Case Closed!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGJCy2RX/Stroud-Vickie-Adams.png)
JohnM
If Garner was at the closest western window to the stairs then she would have been within spitting distance of B&T when they entered the 4th floor.
Yet B&T never mentioned ever seeing Garner. Obviously B&T were looking for a guy.
A&S were on the first floor at the same time as B&T, but B&T (heading for the lifts) never mentioned ever seeing A&S (heading for the dock door). Ditto.
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At the end of the day, if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them. And the Stroud document doesn't say that Garner(who btw was recalling these events many months later) was constantly monitoring the rear stairs, Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker. End of Story! Case Closed!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGJCy2RX/Stroud-Vickie-Adams.png)
JohnM
if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them.
Could be, if he was indeed on the stairs at all. The wooden stairs were extremely noisy and in her interview Adams clearly states that she would have heard it if somebody else was on the stairs. The same goes for Garner who did hear the women going down the stairs, but somehow missed Oswald, who would have been right behind them (according to you), completely.
Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker.
Utter BS. She said that she saw Truly and the police man come up after Adams went down the stairs. She said nothing about "Oswald being long gone"
The bottom line is; there is evidence that puts Adams and Styles on the stairs and the same goes for Truly and Baker. There is not a shred of evidence that puts Oswald on the stairs. Nothing, nada....
The WC didn't want Adams to participate in the time trail and decided to ignore Garner completely (after WC staff had spoken to her several times) for one reason only; they didn't want to find out the Oswald couldn't have come down the stairs.
That's IMO the reason why Rankin buried the Stroud letter!
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If Garner was at the closest western window to the stairs then she would have been within spitting distance of B&T when they entered the 4th floor.
Yet B&T never mentioned ever seeing Garner. Obviously B&T were looking for a guy.
A&S were on the first floor at the same time as B&T, but B&T (heading for the lifts) never mentioned ever seeing A&S (heading for the dock door). Ditto.
If Garner was at the closest western window to the stairs then she would have been within spitting distance of B&T when they entered the 4th floor.
And let's not forget that the TSBD had wooden floors. Try running on wooden floors without being heard.... It can't be done.
Yet B&T never mentioned ever seeing Garner. Obviously B&T were looking for a guy.
Did somebody ever asked them if they saw Garner or any woman as they were going up the stairs?
A&S were on the first floor at the same time as B&T, but B&T (heading for the lifts) never mentioned ever seeing A&S (heading for the dock door). Ditto.
I remember reading somewhere that Adams walked onto the loading dock through the open door next to the exit of the stairs. Truly and Baker were coming from the other side and first focused on the elevator. They may well have missed eachother by a few seconds only.
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if Vickie Adams and Gloria Styles left immediately, it simply means that Oswald was following behind them.
Could be, if he was indeed on the stairs at all. The wooden stairs were extremely noisy and in her interview Adams clearly states that she would have heard it if somebody else was on the stairs. The same goes for Garner who did hear the women going down the stairs, but somehow missed Oswald, who would have been right behind them (according to you), completely.
Garner was simply aware that the girls left to go downstairs and sometime after Oswald was long gone she says she saw Truly and Baker.
Utter BS. She said that she saw Truly and the police man come up after Adams went down the stairs. She said nothing about "Oswald being long gone"
The bottom line is; there is evidence that puts Adams and Styles on the stairs and the same goes for Truly and Baker. There is not a shred of evidence that puts Oswald on the stairs. Nothing, nada....
The WC didn't want Adams to participate in the time trail and decided to ignore Garner completely (after WC staff had spoken to her several times) for one reason only; they didn't want to find out the Oswald couldn't have come down the stairs.
That's IMO the reason why Rankin buried the Stroud letter!
The same goes for Garner who did hear the women going down the stairs
"hear"?
Cite?
She said nothing about "Oswald being long gone"
Please stop misrepresenting my posts because if that what it takes, then you got nothing.
The WC didn't want Adams to participate in the time trail
If Vickie left immediately then as I said she would have been ahead of Oswald, and as we know Vickie repeatedly said she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor which is in direct conflict with her leaving immediately and thus confirming that she was in fact an unreliable eyewitness. So why on Earth would the WC waste any more time with her?
JohnM
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"hear"?
Cite?
Please stop misrepresenting my posts because if that what it takes, then you got nothing.
If Vickie left immediately then as I said she would have been ahead of Oswald, and as we know Vickie repeatedly said she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor which is in direct conflict with her leaving immediately and thus confirming that she was in fact an unreliable eyewitness. So why on Earth would the WC waste any more time with her?
JohnM
She told Barry Ernest that she heard the girls going down the stairs.
Dororthy Ann Garner is important to this case for a couple of reasons:
1/ She confirms that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles left almost right away. “I remember them being there and the next thing I knew , they were gone. They had left very quickly…within a matter of moments. There was this warehouse or storage area behind our offices, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there”. Garner went to this area immediately after Adams and Styles had left and although she did not see them enter the stairwell she could hear them as the stairs were very noisy.
She stayed at that spot alone until other office workers joined her to have a look outside the West facing windows to see what was happening in the railroad yard area and more importantly the area around the grassy knoll and the picket fence where many bystanders had converged at. The gathering of these office workers is confirmed by Bonnie Ray Williams’ testimony as he arrived on the 4th floor (from the 5th floor ) “where we saw all these women looking out of the window”. This tiny element by itself confirms Adams’ and Styles’ immediate descent down those stairs in contradiction to the W.C. version. Garner herself was in the perfect position who came up and who went down those stairs and when asked whether she saw Lee Oswald coming down those stairs she laughed at the question: “No, I don’t remember that. I don’t remember seeing him at all that day…except on TV”.
Please stop misrepresenting my posts because if that what it takes, then you got nothing.
I'm surprised that you, as the resident expert of misrepresenting facts and evidence, see some sort of misrepresentation of your post in my reply. If Garner did not say anything about "Oswald being long gone" (as you made it seem), who did?
If Vickie left immediately then as I said she would have been ahead of Oswald, and as we know Vickie repeatedly said she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor which is in direct conflict with her leaving immediately and thus confirming that she was in fact an unreliable eyewitness. So why on Earth would the WC waste any more time with her?
If every witness who doesn't instantly tell the complete story 100% correctly is considered to be an unreliable witness than there isn't a reliable witness in the whole world. Witnesses are human, they forget or misremember things. In this case a proponderance of evidence shows that Adams did in fact see Shelley and Lovelady but not on the first floor. Instead she most likely saw them standing next to the annex of the TSBD where both men actually were about 2 minutes after the shots. It has all been explained in one of my earlier posts, but you probably just ignored that, like you always do with evidence you don't like.
The WC didn't waste any more time with her, because if they did they might find out that their pre-determined conclusions about Oswald's guilt were wrong.
But why don't you at least try to provide some evidence that Oswald was actually on the stairs at all. Your biased assumptions are getting pretty tiresome.
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If Garner was at the closest western window to the stairs then she would have been within spitting distance of B&T when they entered the 4th floor.
And let's not forget that the TSBD had wooden floors. Try running on wooden floors without being heard.... It can't be done.
Yet B&T never mentioned ever seeing Garner. Obviously B&T were looking for a guy.
Did somebody ever asked them if they saw Garner or any woman as they were going up the stairs?
A&S were on the first floor at the same time as B&T, but B&T (heading for the lifts) never mentioned ever seeing A&S (heading for the dock door). Ditto.
I remember reading somewhere that Adams walked onto the loading dock through the open door next to the exit of the stairs. Truly and Baker were coming from the other side and first focused on the elevator. They may well have missed eachother by a few seconds only.
I had forgotten about that door (next to the stairs). [edit][roller door][2 ovem actually, one each side of the lifts][besides the ordinary door].
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She told Barry Ernest that she heard the girls going down the stairs.
Dororthy Ann Garner is important to this case for a couple of reasons:
1/ She confirms that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles left almost right away. “I remember them being there and the next thing I knew , they were gone. They had left very quickly…within a matter of moments. There was this warehouse or storage area behind our offices, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there”. Garner went to this area immediately after Adams and Styles had left and although she did not see them enter the stairwell she could hear them as the stairs were very noisy.
She stayed at that spot alone until other office workers joined her to have a look outside the West facing windows to see what was happening in the railroad yard area and more importantly the area around the grassy knoll and the picket fence where many bystanders had converged at. The gathering of these office workers is confirmed by Bonnie Ray Williams’ testimony as he arrived on the 4th floor (from the 5th floor ) “where we saw all these women looking out of the window”. This tiny element by itself confirms Adams’ and Styles’ immediate descent down those stairs in contradiction to the W.C. version. Garner herself was in the perfect position who came up and who went down those stairs and when asked whether she saw Lee Oswald coming down those stairs she laughed at the question: “No, I don’t remember that. I don’t remember seeing him at all that day…except on TV”.
I find a number of reasons to be suspicious surrounding her version of events.
1. Here's the Newman's being photographed on the ground and no body is on the grassy Knoll.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yWW4jM6/bond4.jpg)
2. Nobody was converging in any area for a while after the assassination, the Newman's were photographed lying down and protecting their child and after the area was safe, they stood up and can be seen standing in this photo, also at this point of time, nobody was converging on the "picket fence", in fact the first crowd were running past this area. The grassy Knoll convergence happened way later, time wise about the same time Lovelady and Shelley re-entered the building.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yMfVxSp/running-past-grassy-knoll-fence.jpg)
3. If Adams and Styles left immediately then how did Adams see Lovelady and Shelley?
4. How would Garner know that Adams and Styles footsteps were specifically theirs? E.S.P?
5. The sounds from the stairwell could have Oswald's because we know Oswald only a couple of floors up left the Sniper's Nest within seconds and if Adam's testimony is to be believed, she says she left anywhere up to THIRTY seconds later, which apparently in her vocabulary means "immediately! LOL!
6. Garner says that Adams and Styles left almost right away, yet Adam's says in her testimony she left the window, anywhere up to 30 seconds later?
7. Adams said the shots sounded like they came from right below her but still from her building, yet all these ladies, 1 of which was confirmed to have 3 inch heels, seem to immediately move to a dangerous place where any potential assassin could possibly be?
8. Why would Garner move "immediately" to the same stair area and stand "alone" in a potentially dangerous building?
9. Why would Garner without knowing where Adams and Styles went, "immediately" even go to the stairwell?
10. Why would Garner go straight to the stairwell and not go any further but stay and wait for some reason, for people to start gathing at the Grassy Knoll and railroad?
11. Garner was obviously focused on staring out the window because she didn't know Adam's and Style's had left, so why on Earth would she leave her perfect vantage point "immediately" and aimlessly end up conveniently at the stairs?
JohnM
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I find a number of reasons to be suspicious surrounding her version of events.
1. Here's the Newman's being photographed on the ground and no body is on the grassy Knoll.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yWW4jM6/bond4.jpg)
2. Nobody was converging in any area for a while after the assassination, the Newman's were photographed lying down and protecting their child and after the area was safe, they stood up and can be seen standing in this photo, also at this point of time, nobody was converging on the "picket fence", in fact the first crowd were running past this area. The grassy Knoll convergence happened way later, time wise about the same time Lovelady and Shelley re-entered the building.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yMfVxSp/running-past-grassy-knoll-fence.jpg)
3. If Adams and Styles left immediately then how did Adams see Lovelady and Shelley?
4. How would Garner know that Adams and Styles footsteps were specifically theirs? E.S.P?
5. The sounds from the stairwell could have Oswald's because we know Oswald only a couple of floors up left the Sniper's Nest within seconds and if Adam's testimony is to be believed, she says she left anywhere up to THIRTY seconds later, which apparently in her vocabulary means "immediately! LOL!
6. Garner says that Adams and Styles left almost right away, yet Adam's says in her testimony she left the window, anywhere up to 30 seconds later?
7. Adams said the shots sounded like they came from right below her but still from her building, yet all these ladies, 1 of which was confirmed to have 3 inch heels, seem to immediately move to a dangerous place where any potential assassin could possibly be?
8. Why would Garner move "immediately" to the same stair area and stand "alone" in a potentially dangerous building?
9. Why would Garner without knowing where Adams and Styles went, "immediately" even go to the stairwell?
10. Why would Garner go straight to the stairwell and not go any further but stay and wait for some reason, for people to start gathing at the Grassy Knoll and railroad?
11. Garner was obviously focused on staring out the window because she didn't know Adam's and Style's had left, so why on Earth would she leave her perfect vantage point "immediately" and aimlessly end up conveniently at the stairs?
JohnM
Still desperately looking for a way to discredit the witnesses you don't like, I see... Even calling them "suspicious".... You wouldn't be implying there was a conspiracy between Adams and Garner, would you now? :D :D :D :D
OK, I'll play your little game.
1. Here's the Newman's being photographed on the ground and no body is on the grassy Knoll.
2. Nobody was converging in any area for a while after the assassination, the Newman's were photographed lying down and protecting their child and after the area was safe, they stood up and can be seen standing in this photo, also at this point of time, nobody was converging on the "picket fence", in fact the first crowd were running past this area. The grassy Knoll convergence happened way later, time wise about the same time Lovelady and Shelley re-entered the building.
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. It has nothing to do with what Garner said. Nobody mentioned the grassy knoll. Adams said in her testimony that she ran towards the railroad tracks, meaning to the area west of the building. Styles told the FBI that she and Adams went in the direction of the railroad where they had observed other people running. Aside from the fact that witnesses do not always get all their facts straight during an interview and that their words might be misinterpreted when somebody else (like an FBI) writes a summary in his report, it really doesn't matter where and when Styles saw people running in a particular direction.
Charles Collins tried to use the argument of the women seeing people lying down and running towards the west of the building as somehow "evidence" that they did not leave the 4th floor window immediately. He estimated that they must have stayed there some 75 seconds. This, however, was easily debunked by the simple fact that if they had stayed 75 seconds at the window before going down the stairs they would have bumped into Truly and Baker coming up after their encounter with Oswald on the 4th floor.
3. If Adams and Styles left immediately then how did Adams see Lovelady and Shelley?
Already explained in one of my earlier posts. Is this confirmation that you simply do not read the posts of people that reply to your posts?
But, here is my reply to Charles Collins again;
You can be as stubborn as you want and believe whatever you want, but when you make a time line based up all the available factual information the only thing that doesn't fit is that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. What does fit is that she actually saw them in the same area next to the TSBD annex where a police man stopped them and told them to go back into the building. The testimony of Shelley and Lovelady puts both men at exactly that position at the right time. They said they were at the front of the building when they heard the shots and then ran along the front side of the building to the parking lot near the railway tracks.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
This combined testimony shows that Shelley and Lovelady both saw Truly and Baker just prior to going into the building at the front entrance when they were already walking/running towards the parking lot at the West side of the building.
If you have Adams and Styles leaving the window directly after the shots to go down the stairs, and if you have Shelley and Lovelady starting to walk/run to the railroad track next to the building just when Truly and Baker entered the building, they could very well have ended up at the West side of the building at roughly the same time. So, It isn't so much whether Adams saw both men, which she probably did, but rather the location where she saw them.
What blows your theory out of the water is the fact that we know that if Adams and Styles had really waited 75 seconds after the shots they would have encountered Truly and Baker on the stairs, which they didn't. We also know that Dorothy Garner told Martha Stroud that the girls had gone down the stairs before Truly and a police man come up. We know that it took Baker roughly 90 seconds to briefly encounter Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. After that short encounter they continued to go up the stairs. So, if Adams and Styles started to go down the stairs at roughly 85 to 90 seconds after the shots and Baker and Truly left the 2nd floor at roughly 90 to 95 seconds after the shots, there is no way that they wouldn't have bumped into eachother on the stairs.
Adams said it took them about a minute to go down the stairs and out the building onto the loading dock. We also know that Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down (at 12:36), so if they left the window on the 4th floor at 12:31:15 as you claim and they needed a minute to get to the loading dock, they only would have had only 4 minutes and 45 seconds to run from the loading dock (on high heels) along three sides of the building (meeting the officer somewhere in between) to get to the front entrance. There is IMO no way that could have happened.
Are you now going to pretend that you don't have the intelligence to understand the logic of what I have written?
4. How would Garner know that Adams and Styles footsteps were specifically theirs? E.S.P?
Silly question. Garner immediately went to the storage area after Adams and Styles had left the office. There was only one door to the storage area at the back of the office space. The women were already gone and the only way they could have gone is down the stairs. Garner then heard footsteps on the stairs. Just how many other women do you think went down the stairs from the 4th floor at that particular moment in time?
Btw, how do you know that Oswald was ever on the stairs? E.S.P. perhaps?
5. The sounds from the stairwell could have Oswald's because we know Oswald only a couple of floors up left the Sniper's Nest within seconds and if Adam's testimony is to be believed, she says she left anywhere up to THIRTY seconds later, which apparently in her vocabulary means "immediately! LOL!
No. First of all we don't know that Oswald left the sniper's nest within seconds. Your favorite witness, Howard Brennan, actually testified (I'm paraphrasing) that the shooter pulled the rifle in slowly and was in no great rush to leave. Secondly, the shooter had to walk a longer distance than Adams and Styles. The women left through a backdoor of the office and ran in a straight line to the stairs. The shooter had to run nearly the entire east side of the building and than cut across to the stairs at the west side of the building, where he then had to hide the rifle. That alone took him according to the time trials (IIRC) some 30 seconds and he then had to come down two flights of stairs. In other words, if Oswald (or anybody else) had come down the stairs in the manner you suggest he most likely had run into Adams and Styles or be right behind them. Adams testified that she saw nobody and heard nobody else on the stairs.
And btw Adams never stated that "immediately" means 30 seconds. That was made up by some fool who decided to use a dictionary to look up the word, because he clearly did not (want to) understand what normal people mean when they use the word "immediately" in a conversation.
6. Garner says that Adams and Styles left almost right away, yet Adam's says in her testimony she left the window, anywhere up to 30 seconds later?
Where in her testimony did Adams say she left the window "up to 30 seconds later"?
Here's an interesting part of Adams' testimony in which Belin used the word "immediately" twice.
Mr. BELIN - Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Now, according to the dictionary freak, this would mean that Adams waited up to 30 seconds to go down from the 3rd to the 2nd floor and again before going down from the 2nd to the 1st floor. Does it seem even remotely likely to you that Belin had a waiting time of up to 30 seconds in mind when he used the word "immediately"?
To normal people, which means not those who are desperately looking for a silly way to discredit a witness with idiotic made up stuff, the word "immediately" means "instantly" or "straight away". If you disagree, please let me know! :D
7. Adams said the shots sounded like they came from right below her but still from her building, yet all these ladies, 1 of which was confirmed to have 3 inch heels, seem to immediately move to a dangerous place where any potential assassin could possibly be?
What's your point? Why did all those people run on the grassy knoll, where the shots possibly came from? Adams and Styles ran to the stairs at the back of the building and then towards the railway yard. They did not run to Elm street or anywhere near the parking lot behind the picket fence? Is this really the best you've got?
8. Why would Garner move "immediately" to the same stair area and stand "alone" in a potentially dangerous building?
9. Why would Garner without knowing where Adams and Styles went, "immediately" even go to the stairwell?
10. Why would Garner go straight to the stairwell and not go any further but stay and wait for some reason, for people to start gathing at the Grassy Knoll and railroad?
11. Garner was obviously focused on staring out the window because she didn't know Adam's and Style's had left, so why on Earth would she leave her perfect vantage point "immediately" and aimlessly end up conveniently at the stairs?
What's with the silly questions? Garner told Barry Ernest exactly what she did and the Stroud letter confirms the most important part of it. If you want to find out why Garner did what she did, hold a seance and ask her!
Nothing what Garner did or did not do has any bearing on the time line of Adams and Styles. This is just you trying yet again to find some way to discredit Garner as a witness. It's pretty pathetic!
Now, are you going to show us the evidence for your claim that Oswald was in fact on the stairs, coming down from the 6th floor to the 2nd or not?
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Still desperately looking for a way to discredit the witnesses you don't like, I see... Even calling them "suspicious".... You wouldn't be implying there was a conspiracy between Adams and Garner, would you now? :D :D :D :D
OK, I'll play your little game.
1. Here's the Newman's being photographed on the ground and no body is on the grassy Knoll.
2. Nobody was converging in any area for a while after the assassination, the Newman's were photographed lying down and protecting their child and after the area was safe, they stood up and can be seen standing in this photo, also at this point of time, nobody was converging on the "picket fence", in fact the first crowd were running past this area. The grassy Knoll convergence happened way later, time wise about the same time Lovelady and Shelley re-entered the building.
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. It has nothing to do with what Garner said. Nobody mentioned the grassy knoll. Adams said in her testimony that she ran towards the railroad tracks, meaning to the area west of the building. Styles told the FBI that she and Adams went in the direction of the railroad where they had observed other people running. Aside from the fact that witnesses do not always get all their facts straight during an interview and that their words might be misinterpreted when somebody else (like an FBI) writes a summary in his report, it really doesn't matter where and when Styles saw people running in a particular direction.
Charles Collins tried to use the argument of the women seeing people lying down and running towards the west of the building as somehow "evidence" that they did not leave the 4th floor window immediately. He estimated that they must have stayed there some 75 seconds. This, however, was easily debunked by the simple fact that if they had stayed 75 seconds at the window before going down the stairs they would have bumped into Truly and Baker coming up after their encounter with Oswald on the 4th floor.
3. If Adams and Styles left immediately then how did Adams see Lovelady and Shelley?
Already explained in one of my earlier posts. Is this confirmation that you simply do not read the posts of people that reply to your posts?
But, here is my reply to Charles Collins again;
Are you now going to pretend that you don't have the intelligence to understand the logic of what I have written?
4. How would Garner know that Adams and Styles footsteps were specifically theirs? E.S.P?
Silly question. Garner immediately went to the storage area after Adams and Styles had left the office. There was only one door to the storage area at the back of the office space. The women were already gone and the only way they could have gone is down the stairs. Garner then heard footsteps on the stairs. Just how many other women do you think went down the stairs from the 4th floor at that particular moment in time?
5. The sounds from the stairwell could have Oswald's because we know Oswald only a couple of floors up left the Sniper's Nest within seconds and if Adam's testimony is to be believed, she says she left anywhere up to THIRTY seconds later, which apparently in her vocabulary means "immediately! LOL!
No. First of all we don't know that Oswald left the sniper's nest within seconds. Your favorite witness, Howard Brennan, actually testified (I'm paraphrasing) that the shooter pulled the rifle in slowly and was in no great rush to leave. Secondly, the shooter had to walk a longer distance than Adams and Styles. The women left through a backdoor of the office and ran in a straight line to the stairs. The shooter had to run nearly the entire east side of the building and than cut across to the stairs at the west side of the building, where he then had to hide the rifle. That alone took him according to the time trials (IIRC) some 30 seconds and he then had to come down two flights of stairs. In other words, if Oswald (or anybody else) had come down the stairs in the manner you suggest he most likely had run into Adams and Styles or be right behind them. Adams testified that she saw nobody and heard nobody else on the stairs.
And btw Adams never stated that "immediately" means 30 seconds. That was made up by some fool who decided to use a dictionary to look up the word, because he clearly did not (want to) understand what normal people mean when they use the word "immediately" in a conversation.
6. Garner says that Adams and Styles left almost right away, yet Adam's says in her testimony she left the window, anywhere up to 30 seconds later?
Where in her testimony did Adams say she left the window "up to 30 seconds later"?
Here's an interesting part of Adams' testimony in which Belin used the word "immediately" twice.
Mr. BELIN - Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Now, according to the dictionary freak, this would mean that Adams waited up to 30 seconds to go down from the 3rd to the 2nd floor and again before going down from the 2nd to the 1st floor. Does it seem even remotely likely to you that Belin had a waiting time of up to 30 seconds in mind when he used the word "immediately"?
To normal people, which means not those who are desperately looking for a silly way to discredit a witness with idiotic made up stuff, the word "immediately" means "instantly" or "straight away". If you disagree, please let me know! :D
7. Adams said the shots sounded like they came from right below her but still from her building, yet all these ladies, 1 of which was confirmed to have 3 inch heels, seem to immediately move to a dangerous place where any potential assassin could possibly be?
What's your point? Why did all those people run on the grassy knoll, where the shots possibly came from? Adams and Styles ran to the stairs at the back of the building and then towards the railway yard. They did not run to Elm street or anywhere near the parking lot behind the picket fence? Is this really the best you've got?
8. Why would Garner move "immediately" to the same stair area and stand "alone" in a potentially dangerous building?
9. Why would Garner without knowing where Adams and Styles went, "immediately" even go to the stairwell?
10. Why would Garner go straight to the stairwell and not go any further but stay and wait for some reason, for people to start gathing at the Grassy Knoll and railroad?
11. Garner was obviously focused on staring out the window because she didn't know Adam's and Style's had left, so why on Earth would she leave her perfect vantage point "immediately" and aimlessly end up conveniently at the stairs?
What's with the silly questions? Garner told Barry Ernest exactly what she did and the Stroud letter confirms the most important part of it. If you want to find out why Garner did what she did, hold a seance and ask her!
Nothing what Garner did or did not do has any bearing on the time line of Adams and Styles. This is just you trying yet again to find some way to discredit Garner as a witness. It's pretty pathetic!
Now, are you going to show us the evidence for your claim that Oswald was in fact on the stairs, coming down from the 6th floor to the 2nd or not?
Sorry Martin, instead of speculation, I'll use the evidence. And I don't consider this a "game", to even to suggest that this is a "game" is extremely distasteful!
1) Brennan testified that Lee Harvey Oswald disappeared within a few seconds.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
2) The fourth floor had TWO elevators and Garner had no idea of where Adams and Styles went, they even could have gone and hid and Garner would never know, but you like to assume that Garner could read minds? Or more likely the girls discussed this event at a later stage but unfortunately for Garner's credibility, she mixed up specific timing details.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHgLggVX/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
3) When looking at a map of Dealey Plaza, Garner had the best view from where she was and considering she had no idea of where Adams and Styles went, her so far elusive reason for going to the back of the building to just stand around makes zero sense.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y91Tsp7/Dealey-Plaza-map.jpg)
4) But if indeed Garner went to the stairs immediately after she noticed Adam's and Styles disappearance, a precise timeframe we will never know (for what reason she decided to immediately move at that exact point in time we also will never know) she could have easily heard Oswald.
5) Also Adams said she was three windows across and we know where Oswald's window was, therefore the distance to the stairs from their relative positions only had a difference of two sets of windows and you seem to know the inner layout of furniture and the warehouse and storage area of the 4th floor, please give a more thorough description?
6) The 6th floor boxes at the time were being moved around and we can't possibly know the exact path Oswald took, the SS recreation which looked to be in slow motion played it safe and took the longest journey and even then it wasn't that long and Oswald wasn't hampered by 3 inch heels!
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/35/Photo_wcd81-1_0099.jpg)
7) And let's not forget that after the assassination and all the screaming, shouting and sirens, Oswald decided to get a coke? And Oswald was seen by Baker in the vestibule hurrying away from the corner with the stairs.
Mr. DULLES - Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind?
Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/37/db/ed/37dbed979c4101d6787a25ed626dab03.jpg)
8) Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
9) Adam's says she left up to 30 seconds later whereas the obviously not clued in Garner says only moments. Clearly consistency isn't the girls forte.
So in conclusion, the times are all over the place, Adams says she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor and why Garner would immediately go to the rear stairwell and just stand around is highly unlikely. And most importantly her story to Ernst was not under oath and what we have is hearsay. Therefore Oswald could have easily gone down the stairs.
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JohnM
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Sorry Martin, instead of speculation, I'll use the evidence.
1)Brennan testified that the assassin disappeared within a few seconds.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
2) The fourth floor had TWO elevators and Garner had no idea of where Adams and Styles went, they even could have gone and hid and Garner would never know, but you like to assume that Garner could read minds? Or more likely the girls discussed this event at a later stage.
3) But if indeed Garner went to the stairs immediately after she noticed Adam's and Styles disappearance, a precise timeframe we will never know (for what reason she decided to immediately move at that exact point in time we also will never know) she could have easily heard Oswald. Also Adams said she was three windows across and we know where Oswald's window was, therefore the distance to the stairs from their relative positions only had a difference of about ten yards and you seem to know the inner layout of furniture and the warehouse and storage area of the 4th floor, please give a more thorough description?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHgLggVX/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
4) Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
5) Adam's says she left up to 30 seconds later whereas the obviously not clued in Garner says only moments. Clearly consistency isn't the girls forte.
So in conclusion, the times are all over the place and why Garner would immediately go to the rear stairwell and just stand around is highly unlikely. Therefore Oswald could have easily go down the stairs.
JohnM
Just as I thought. More BS from the king of the stuff...
Sorry Martin, instead of speculation, I'll use the evidence.
Don't make me laugh.
1)Brennan testified that the assassin disappeared within a few seconds.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
I paraphrased when I talked about Brennan. But this is what he said in his 11/22/63 affidavit;
I was looking at the man in this windows at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry.
2) The fourth floor had TWO elevators and Garner had no idea of where Adams and Styles went, they even could have gone and hid and Garner would never know, but you like to assume that Garner could read minds? Or more likely the girls discussed this event at a later stage.
Didn't you just say you did not use speculation? What do you call this then?
3) But if indeed Garner went to the stairs immediately after she noticed Adam's and Styles disappearance, a precise timeframe we will never know (for what reason she decided to immediately move at that exact point in time we also will never know) she could have easily heard Oswald.
"she could have easily heard Oswald" = SPECULATION.... Besides, so far you haven't offered a shred of evidence that Oswald was even on the stairs!
Also Adams said she was three windows across and we know where Oswald's window was, therefore the distance to the stairs from their relative positions only had a difference of about ten yards and you seem to know the inner layout of furniture and the warehouse and storage area of the 4th floor, please give a more thorough description?
Once again you are talking BS and are misrepresenting the evidence. The door at the back of the 4th floor office was directly opposite the elevators in the back. The sniper's nest was at the corner of the building and the entire 6th floor was full of books. Even the FBI time trail was conducted with their man walking the entire east side of the building and then cutting across to the west side where the stairs were. You must be really desperate by now if you are trying to suggest that the killer did not have a longer way to go than Adams and Styles to get to the stairs.
4) Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Why did you decide to go with "up to 30 seconds"? Adams gave an estimation which could easily have been 15 seconds as well, but you've left that out. Why?
5) Adam's says she left up to 30 seconds later whereas the obviously not clued in Garner says only moments. Clearly consistency isn't the girls forte.
So in conclusion, the times are all over the place and why Garner would immediately go to the rear stairwell and just stand around is highly unlikely. Therefore Oswald could have easily go down the stairs.
So, now an estimate of 15 to 30 seconds, from a person who did not use a stopwatch at the time it happened, and a comment of "only moments" is a problem?
There is no problem at all, except the one you are desperately trying to create.
and why Garner would immediately go to the rear stairwell and just stand around is highly unlikely.
Your biased opinion isn't worth much. I'll go with what Garner actually said. You should try it. It's called following the evidence.
Therefore Oswald could have easily go down the stairs.
And the guy who claims to use the evidence still hasn't presented a shred of evidence that Oswald was even on the stairs and thus ends his post with nothing but utter speculation.
Next time try to do better, John.... This is too easy....
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Next time try to do better, John.... This is too easy....
When you confront the evidence then you may have an opinion but until then, all you have is times that don't add up, but thanks for your participation.
Adams repeatedly said she saw Lovelady on the 1st floor but unfortunately for Adams, Lovelady and Shelley couldn't possibly be there at the allotted time! And that is the where the Adams story sinks and even your weak attempts to throw her a lifeline have failed dismally! Therefore it can only follow that Garner's recollection of "within a matter of moments" is a provable lie. Case Closed! Hahahaha!
Btw, so now it becomes very clear why the WC ignored Adams and her request for a timed recreation because it would only further prove that Adams was a L-I-A-R and a waste of time!
JohnM
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4) Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Why did you decide to go with "up to 30 seconds"? Adams gave an estimation which could easily have been 15 seconds as well, but you've left that out. Why?
You're not very good at this are you!
My statement of "up to 30 seconds" automatically encapsulates 15 seconds. Duh!
JohnM
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and why Garner would immediately go to the rear stairwell and just stand around is highly unlikely.
Your biased opinion isn't worth much. I'll go with what Garner actually said. You should try it. It's called following the evidence.
This get's curiouser and curiouser, here's an excerpt from Ernest's book of what Garner apparently actually said!
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following
"shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say,
"probably to get something."
So Garner decides at the exact time that she realized that Adams and Styles were gone, to leave her prime spot and get this, she couldn't remember why she suddenly had to leave at that precise time, but she guesses she probably went to get "something" and thereafter didn't go back to the front windows but instead just stood alone at the back of the building??
And let's put this in perspective, she knew that some dramatic event perhaps involving the President just happened right before her very eyes, and instead of spending a little time trying to work out what happened, she leaves within moments for some reason and goes to get some unspecified "something"? Far out Brussel Spout, what a load of rubbish!
Btw, the above quote came from the next paragraph after your previous quote from Ernest's book so you must have known what Garner said about why she followed Adams and Styles, and I perfectly understand why you tried to keep her crazy excuse a complete secret. Oops!
JohnM
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When you confront the evidence then you may have an opinion but until then, all you have is times that don't add up, but thanks for your participation.
Adams repeatedly said she saw Lovelady on the 1st floor but unfortunately for Adams, Lovelady and Shelley couldn't possibly be there at the allotted time! And that is the where the Adams story sinks and even your weak attempts to throw her a lifeline have failed dismally! Therefore it can only follow that Garner's recollection of "within a matter of moments" is a provable lie. Case Closed! Hahahaha!
Btw, so now it becomes very clear why the WC ignored Adams and her request for a timed recreation because it would only further prove that Adams was a L-I-A-R and a waste of time!
JohnM
When you confront the evidence then you may have an opinion but until then, all you have is times that don't add up, but thanks for your participation.
LOL. Thank you for demostrating once again that you are completely clueless about what evidence actually is. Thumb1:
Adams repeatedly said she saw Lovelady on the 1st floor but unfortunately for Adams, Lovelady and Shelley couldn't possibly be there at the allotted time!
Which means that Adams was clearly mistaken about where she saw the two men. Let's not forget that the entire Lovelady/Shelley thing didn't come up until Jim Leavelle showed up at Adams' door in mid february 1964 with the pathetic and untrue claim that her previous statements somehow had been lost.
And that is the where the Adams story sinks and even your weak attempts to throw her a lifeline have failed dismally!
Bla bla bla... than explain for once in detail how the story sinks. Come on, then.... have at it!
Therefore it can only follow that Garner's recollection of "within a matter of moments" is a provable lie.
So, now Garner is a liar?
Is this really what your case has been reduced to? A vain attempt to muddy the water with some BS over 15 or 30 seconds and calling a supporting witness a liar? How typical LN.
Btw, so now it becomes very clear why the WC ignored Adams and her request for a timed recreation because it would only further prove that Adams was a L-I-A-R and a waste of time!
The women aren't liars, you are with your pathetic claim that Oswald was on the stairs at all when you can't produce a shred of evidence for it.
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When you confront the evidence then you may have an opinion but until then, all you have is times that don't add up, but thanks for your participation.
LOL. Thank you for demostrating once again that you are completely clueless about what evidence actually is. Thumb1:
Adams repeatedly said she saw Lovelady on the 1st floor but unfortunately for Adams, Lovelady and Shelley couldn't possibly be there at the allotted time!
Which means that Adams was clearly mistaken about where she saw the two men. Let's not forget that the entire Lovelady/Shelley thing didn't come up until Jim Leavelle showed up at Adams' door in mid february 1964 with the pathetic and untrue claim that her previous statements somehow had been lost.
And that is the where the Adams story sinks and even your weak attempts to throw her a lifeline have failed dismally!
Bla bla bla... than explain for once in detail how the story sinks. Come on, then.... have at it!
Therefore it can only follow that Garner's recollection of "within a matter of moments" is a provable lie.
So, now Garner is a liar?
Is this really what your case has been reduced to? A vain attempt to muddy the water with some BS over 15 or 30 seconds and calling a supporting witness a liar? How typical LN.
Btw, so now it becomes very clear why the WC ignored Adams and her request for a timed recreation because it would only further prove that Adams was a L-I-A-R and a waste of time!
The women aren't liars, you are with your pathetic claim that Oswald was on the stairs at all when you can't produce a shred of evidence for it.
It's too late Martin, Adams story as in the WC and confirmed in the OP video, is provably wrong!
You lose!
JohnM
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This get's curiouser and curiouser, here's an excerpt from Ernest's book of what Garner apparently actually said!
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following
"shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say,
"probably to get something."
So Garner decides at the exact time that she realized that Adams and Styles were gone, to leave her prime spot and get this, she couldn't remember why she suddenly had to leave at that precise time, but she guesses she probably went to get "something" and thereafter didn't go back to the front windows but instead just stood alone at the back of the building??
And let's put this in perspective, she knew that some dramatic event perhaps involving the President just happened right before her very eyes, and instead of spending a little time trying to work out what happened, she leaves within moments for some reason and goes to get some unspecified "something"? Far out Brussel Spout, what a load of rubbish!
Btw, the above quote came from the next paragraph after your previous quote from Ernest's book so you must have known what Garner said about why she followed Adams and Styles, and I perfectly understand why you tried to keep her crazy excuse a complete secret. Oops!
JohnM
Oh how low this LN is willing to sink. Garner was interviewed by Ernest in 2011, a year before her death, and you expect that old lady to remember everything to the smallest detail?
When asked she said she didn't remember. Only a creep like you would call something like that suspicious.
Garner did really get under your skin, didn't she! Great stuff...
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Oh how low this LN is willing to sink. Garner was interviewed by Ernest in 2011, a year before her death, and you expect that old lady to remember everything to the smallest detail?
When asked she said she didn't remember. Only a creep like you would call something like that suspicious.
Garner did really get under your skin, didn't she! Great stuff...
When asked she said she didn't remember.
Interesting, then how can we trust any of her memories? LOL!
JohnM
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It's too late Martin, Adams story as in the WC and confirmed in the OP video, is provably wrong!
You lose!
JohnM
Run John run....
I'll leave you with this; I did not write any of my replies to your BS posts to try and convince you of anything, because it was clear from the outset that it would be impossible to do with a LN. I wrote the posts for other, far more reasonable readers than you, to show them just how far you would go with your usual BS to try and salvage your pathetic fairytale. It worked.
The irony of it all is that you have now resorted to calling two women, who had nothing to gain and were merely witnesses to a minor part of the case, liars and as a result you have accused them of conspiring to tell the same story decades after the event. Are you proud of yourself?
Oh, and let's not forget that you have also demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you can not provide a shred of evidence that shows Oswald was on the stairs at all! Well done Thumb1:
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Interesting, then how can we trust any of her memories? LOL!
JohnM
By checking the key information, about Adams and Styles going down before Truly and Baker came up, against what she remembered on that particular point. And she was very clear about exactly that, some 5 decades later, even if she couldn't remember why she went out there.
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You're not very good at this are you!
My statement of "up to 30 seconds" automatically encapsulates 15 seconds. Duh!
JohnM
It is still a misrepresentation of what Adams actually said. But even if her estimate was correct and it was 30 seconds (quod non), that still means the women would be at the stairs on the 4th floor before somebody coming from the 6th floor could get there.
The case you are desperately trying to defend here is puzzle with a great many pieces missing. You will never ever be able to present even a remotely plausible timeline for the events involving Adams/Styles and Shelley/Lovelady between 12:30 and 12:36, but I nevertheless challenge you to give it a try.
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Run John run....
I'll leave you with this; I did not write any of my replies to your BS posts to try and convince you of anything, because it was clear from the outset that it would be impossible to do with a LN. I wrote the posts for other, far more reasonable readers than you, to show them just how far you would go with your usual BS to try and salvage your pathetic fairytale. It worked.
The irony of it all is that you have now resorted to calling two women, who had nothing to gain and were merely witnesses to a minor part of the case, liars and as a result you have accused them of conspiring to tell the same story decades after the event. Are you proud of yourself?
Oh, and let's not forget that you have also demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you can not provide a shred of evidence that shows Oswald was on the stairs at all! Well done Thumb1:
Give it up Martin, you've been back pedalling ever since Adams own voice confirmed that after she came down from the 4th floor and she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the 1st floor and years of CT claims about the WC altering evidence has gone up in flames, Wake up and smell the air of Truth!
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JohnM
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Give it up Martin, you've been back pedalling ever since Adams own voice confirmed that after she came down from the 4th floor and she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the 1st floor and years of CT claims about the WC altering evidence has gone up in flames, Wake up and smell the air of Truth!
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JohnM
Wake up and smell the air of Truth!
The air of Truth in your neck of the wood smells like manure.
But I take it this means you would be providing us with a plausible timeline of the events between 12:30 and 12:36 or evidence that Oswald was actually was on the stairs at all?
Says it all, really...
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It is still a misrepresentation of what Adams exactly said. But even if her estimate was correct and it was 30 seconds (quod non), that still means the women would be at the stairs on the 4th floor before somebody coming from the 6th floor could get there.
It is still a misrepresentation of what Adams exactly said.
Wtf?, I said up to 30 seconds, how is that wrong?
But even if her estimate was correct and it was 30 seconds (quod non), that still means the women would be at the stairs on the 4th floor before somebody coming from the 6th floor could get there.
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
JohnM
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Wtf?, I said up to 30 seconds, how is that wrong?
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
JohnM
Wtf?, I said up to 30 seconds, how is that wrong?
If you don't know that, you know even less about how to present evidence correctly than I thought.
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
Hilarious..... "we know" but "we" can't show you!
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Wake up and smell the air of Truth!
The air of Truth in your next of the wood smells like manure.
But I take it this means you would be providing us with a plausible timeline of the events between 12:30 and 12:30 or evidence that Oswald was actually was on the stairs at all?
Says it all, really...
Now that there is indisputable proof that Adams was wrong about when she left the window, Oswald had plenty of time to sneak down the stairs!
Case Closed!
But do keep trying because I would like a challenge, which so far you haven't provided.
JohnM
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Now that there is indisputable proof that Adams was wrong about when she left the window, Oswald had plenty of time to sneak down the stairs!
Case Closed!
But do keep trying because I would like a challenge, which so far you haven't provided.
JohnM
Now that there is indisputable proof that Adams was wrong about when she left the window,
Only in your delusion mind.
But do keep trying because I would like a challenge, which so far you haven't provided.
Yes I have, but in typical LN style you have ignored it. As per usual you are all talk and no substance.
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Wtf?, I said up to 30 seconds, how is that wrong?
If you don't know that, you know even less about how to present evidence correctly than I thought.
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
Hilarious..... "we know" but "we" can't show you!
So here we go with the classic Weidmann response, after being bashed once again from pillar to post, you are now reduced to ad hominem. Yawn!
JohnM
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Now that there is indisputable proof that Adams was wrong about when she left the window,
Only in your delusion mind.
But do keep trying because I would like a challenge, which so far you haven't provided.
Yes I have, but in typical LN style you have ignored it. As per usual you are all talk and no substance.
So here we go with the classic Weidmann response times two, after being bashed once again from pillar to post, you are now reduced to ad hominem. Yawn!
JohnM
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So here we go with the classic Weidmann response, after being bashed once again from pillar to post, you are now reduced to ad hominem. Yawn!
JohnM
That's really the best you can do, can't you?
Have it your way... playing the victim when everything else fails.
-
That's really the best you can do, can't you?
Have it your way... playing the victim when everything else fails.
That's really the best you can do
There is no best, I simply stated the facts.
can't you?
Can't I do what?
Have it your way...
I always do.
playing the victim
Huh? I am the victim, of your nasty words.
when everything else fails.
Fail? I don't know the meaning of the word!
Let's summarize.
Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley when she came down to the first floor. Only true if Adams left later.
Garner said she followed Adams and Styles moments later(after assassination). Based on the above evidence, Garner was wrong.
Oswald had plenty of time to slip by unnoticed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif)
JohnM
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There is no best, I simply stated the facts.
Can't I do what?
I always do.
Huh? I am the victim, of your nasty words.
Fail? I don't know the meaning of the word!
Let's summarize.
Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley when she came down to the first floor. Only true if Adams left later.
Garner said she followed Adams and Styles moments later(after assassination). Based on the above evidence, Garner was wrong.
Oswald had plenty of time to slip by unnoticed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif)
JohnM
You are caught in your own lies.
Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley when she came down to the first floor. Only true if Adams left later.
If she did, it would have to be some 5 minutes after the shots because that's when Lovelady and Shelley re-entered the building on the west side.
But you have been claiming that Adams and Styles waited at the 4th floor window "up to 30 seconds". That simply doesn't add up. Even if the women had left 30 seconds or even a minute later they will would not have been able to encounter Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor because they simply were not there. Now try to talk your way out of that one....
That's what happens when you don't think things through; You fall flat on your face.
Garner said she followed Adams and Styles moments later(after assassination). Based on the above evidence, Garner was wrong.
No, Adams said she left the window immediately and Garner corroborated that. Deal with it.
Oswald had plenty of time to slip by unnoticed.
Except you still can not place him on the 6th floor at 12:30 or going down the stairs within 75 seconds after the last shot.
Is Oswald like the imaginary friend you used to have when you were little?
You've got nothing, as per usual.
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But you have been claiming that Adams and Styles waited at the 4th floor window "up to 30 seconds". That simply doesn't add up. Even if the women had left 30 seconds or even a minute later they will would not have been able to encounter Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor because they simply were not there. Now try to talk your way out of that one....
That's what happens when you don't think things through; You fall flat on your face.
Stop with the lies, I was simply quoting Adams! Do you ever get anything right? Maybe next time when you challenge me, at least be sober!
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/emoticon-pointing-down-happy-emoji-his-finger-168543540.jpg)
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
JohnM
JohnM
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Stop with the lies, I was simply quoting Adams! Do you ever get anything right? Maybe next time when you challenge me, at least be sober!
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/emoticon-pointing-down-happy-emoji-his-finger-168543540.jpg)
JohnM
Stop with the lies, I was simply quoting Adams!
No you were not. You were misrepresenting what she actually said.
Maybe next time when you challenge me, at least be sober!
Ad hominem? WOW! Go figure.... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
Who is "we".... and why don't you let us in on this massive secret you've been keeping for more than 60 years? You make all sorts of vague statements that go absolutely nowhere but you never ever get to making some sort of coherent point. Why is that?
Adams told the FBI, two days after the shooting, that she left the window immediately and Garner backed her up, not only in the Stroud letter but also to Barry Ernest some 50 years later.
And again, Johnny boy (oops, is that ad hominem? :D :D :D :D :D) finds himself unable to answer a simple question so he tries (and fails) to create a diversion.
Your dishonestly is so transparent. Shelley and Lovelady did not re-enter the first floor of the TSBD until some 5 minutes after the shooting. Where was Adams all that time? Drinking a coffee at the 4th floor window, perhaps....
Grow a pair and answer some questions for once. Your clown act is old and boring.
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Stop with the lies, I was simply quoting Adams!
No you were not. You were misrepresenting what she actually said.
Maybe next time when you challenge me, at least be sober!
Ad hominem? WOW! Go figure.... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
Who is "we".... and why don't you let us in on this massive secret you've been keeping for more than 60 years? You make all sorts of vague statements that go absolutely nowhere but you never ever get to making some sort of coherent point. Why is that?
Adams told the FBI, two days after the shooting, that she left the window immediately and Garner backed her up, not only in the Stroud letter but also to Barry Ernest some 50 years later.
And again, Johnny boy (oops, is that ad hominem? :D :D :D :D :D) finds himself unable to answer a simple question so he tries (and fails) to create a diversion.
Your dishonestly is so transparent. Shelley and Lovelady did not re-enter the first floor of the TSBD until some 5 minutes after the shooting. Where was Adams all that time? Drinking a coffee at the 4th floor window, perhaps....
Grow a pair and answer some questions for once. Your clown act is old and boring.
1. Sorry but up to 30 seconds encapsulates 15. Get used to it because it's basic Logical English!
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2. How is stating a fact an Ad hominem?
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3. Adams says she saw Lovelady and Shelley when she got to the 1st floor and I really don't care what she did in the meantime, because she has confirmed this fact of seeing Lovelady and Shelley multiple times in multiple places.
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4. How can quoting the evidence be dishonest whereas your constant misrepresentations are the epitome of dishonesty!
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5. Yes, "Johnny boy" is yet another Ad Hominem! Stop it or I'll dob on you!
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6. Yes, I have a pair.
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JohnM
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Mytton failed again. lol.
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1. Sorry but up to 30 seconds encapsulates 15. Get used to it because it's basic Logical English!
:) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D
2. How is stating a fact an Ad hominem?
:) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D
3. Adams says she saw Lovelady and Shelley when she got to the 1st floor and I really don't care what she did in the meantime, because she has confirmed this fact of seeing Lovelady and Shelley multiple times in multiple places.
:) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D
4. How can quoting the evidence be dishonest whereas your constant misrepresentations are the epitome of dishonesty!
:) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D
5. Yes, "Johnny boy" is yet another Ad Hominem! Stop it or I'll dob on you!
:) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D
6. Yes, I have a pair.
:) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D :) ;) :D ;D
JohnM
Oh boy... Johnny is losing it big time.
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Mytton failed again. lol.
How is quoting evidence considered a fail?
From Vickie Adam's WC testimony.
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
From Vickie's own voice in the Thread opener.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhbSYVqt/Vickie-Adams-saw-Lovelady.jpg)
Btw I remember beating you quite often before you disappeared due to your constant losses, but it's good to see you back again because I'd like to beat you up all over again.
JohnM
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Oh boy... Johnny is losing it big time.
I'm glad you noticed the wall of unnecessary usage of emoticons and I hope you take the hint! Hint, hint!
JohnM
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I'm glad you noticed the wall of unnecessary usage of emoticons and I hope you take the hint! Hint, hint!
JohnM
Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
JohnM
Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
JohnM
(https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/QN0jzRsN/199.gif)
JohnM
Grow up.
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How is quoting evidence considered a fail?
From Vickie Adam's WC testimony.
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
From Vickie's own voice in the Thread opener.
Btw I remember beating you quite often before you disappeared due to your constant losses, but it's good to see you back again
because I'd like to beat you up all over again.
JohnM
poor b.b - all your witnesses are mistaken
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Grow up.
Good, so you did get the hint that your continued overuse of walls of emoticons is childish.
A word of advice, just use a wall of emoticons occasionally to make an impact because as you have noted, these displays when overused are perceived as one having "lost it"!
JohnM
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poor b.b - all your witnesses are mistaken
Yeah, whatever?
From the last time you were here, you've regressed drastically, did something happen to you brain and if so, I'm very sorry.
JohnM
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From the FD 302 report by FBI agents Hardin and Scott, dated 11/24/63, about Vickie Adams;
"After the third shot, she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away. She had not been able to fully observe the President at the exact moment he was shot, inasmuch as her view was partially obstructed. She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stars were located and ran down the stairs. No one else was observed on the stairs at this time, and she is sure that this would be the only means of escape from the building from the sixth floor. She and her friends ran out of the building, turned to the left and ran across the railroad tracks in the direction where they observed other people running...."
A statement taken two days after the assassination when her memory was still fresh.
Who would have known that some clown would try to rewrite history some 6 decades later?.....
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poor b.b - all your witnesses are mistaken
And even then is he not able to provide a coherent scenario. It's like talking to a 5 year old... Sad, really.
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From the FD 302 report by FBI agents Hardin and Scott, dated 11/24/63, about Vickie Adams;
"After the third shot, she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away. She had not been able to fully observe the President at the exact moment he was shot, inasmuch as her view was partially obstructed. She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stars were located and ran down the stairs. No one else was observed on the stairs at this time, and she is sure that this would be the only means of escape from the building from the sixth floor. She and her friends ran out of the building, turned to the left and ran across the railroad tracks in the direction where they observed other people running...."
A statement taken two days after the assassination when her memory was still fresh.
Who would have known that some clown would try to rewrite history some 6 decades later?.....
Sorry, but Vickie's own words under oath and her recorded voice are much more convincing but by all means try again! LOL!
From Vickie Adam's WC testimony.
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
From Vickie's own voice in the Thread opener.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhbSYVqt/Vickie-Adams-saw-Lovelady.jpg)
"he had seen me on the first floor before I left the building"
JohnM
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And even then is he not able to provide a coherent scenario. It's like talking to a 5 year old... Sad, really.
Again, I'm so sorry that you have no answers for Vickie's under oath testimony and her very own spoken words which are causing you so much trouble. Muhahaha!
JohnM
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Again, I'm so sorry that you have no answers for Vickie's under oath testimony and her very own spoken words which are causing you so much trouble. Muhahaha!
JohnM
It's no trouble at all. I have already given the answer. You just don't like it and thus ignore it.
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And even then is he not able to provide a coherent scenario. It's like talking to a 5 year old... Sad, really.
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Nutters think they can knock down conspiracy theories all day long to better the Oswald theory. It does nothing.
What they ignore is, they're the only ones that have to anything to prove.
So when they come to conflicting reports it is not a matter taking sides in a game of bettering the other.
If they can prove Lee Oswald killed JFK clear & absolute - then all conspiracy theories go away.
When 3 witnesses insist VA & SS went down those stairs immediately - Nutter cherry pick their solution with disregard for the facts.
It doesn't mean anyone takes an opposing view. It just means the "Bogus-liosi, Mountain of Evidence" is nothing more than a pile of manure.
It is filled with half-truths and lawyer speak - assumptions and innuendo. Conflicting reports will always be a nutter problem they can never get past.
Taking a mistaken statement of Vickie Adams, then cherry pick past, all three insisting they went down the stairs immediately, is proof of nothing.
Nutters problem. Not mine. Prove Lee Oswald ran down those stairs within 75 seconds of the last shot. Nutters fail every time.
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The preceding conversation demonstrates that LNs like John Mytton are not interested in the truth or having an honest discussion about the evidence.
Even sixty years after the event they are still so scared of the fact that Kennedy could have been killed as result of a conspiracy that they will do just about anything to keep their precious fairytale alive.
Asking a LN to provide a coherent evidence based persuasive argument which fits (most) the known facts is like walking up to Superman with kryptonite or to Dracula with a wooden stick.
It is utterly impossible to have any kind of respect for some of the LN clowns that hide behind fake names on this forum.
My only motivation for participating on this forum is that these fools get exposed to the reasonable readers.
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The preceding conversation demonstrates that LNs like John Mytton are not interested in the truth or having an honest discussion about the evidence.
Even sixty years after the event they are still so scared of the fact that Kennedy could have been killed as result of a conspiracy that they will do just about anything to keep their precious fairytale alive.
Asking a LN to provide a coherent evidence based persuasive argument which fits (most) the known facts is like walking up to Superman with kryptonite or to Dracula with a wooden stick.
It is utterly impossible to have any kind of respect for some of the LN clowns that hide behind fake names on this forum.
My only motivation for participating on this forum is that these fools get exposed to the reasonable readers.
My only motivation for participating on this forum is that these fools get exposed to the reasonable readers.
It was obvious to me a long time ago that your motivation certainly wasn’t to learn the truth about what happened on 11/22/63. Now you have stated, for all to see, what your ONLY motivation is. Why am I not surprised?
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My only motivation for participating on this forum is that these fools get exposed to the reasonable readers.
It was obvious to me a long time ago that your motivation certainly wasn’t to learn the truth about what happened on 11/22/63. Now you have stated, for all to see, what your ONLY motivation is. Why am I not surprised?
To learn the truth? From people like you, who twist and turn in anyway possible to keep a fairytale alive? Really?
Give me a break....
A person interested in finding out the truth is perpared to discuss obvious anomalies in the evidence. They don't make up crappy stand alone arguments to discredit a witness who is corroborated by another witness and ignore completely the fact that their made up theory simply doesn't fit the known facts.
Btw, your pathetic argument;
Further confirmation that Adams and Styles saw people running from the fourth floor window:
CE 1381 Sandra Styles statement to the FBI (March 19, 1964):
I recall that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, while watching the motorcade at sometime between 12 :15 PM and 12:30 PM, possibly about 12:20 I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks . I was unaware of the place
the shots came from . I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. VICTORIA ADAMS and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door .
Combine this with Adams’ CE1381 statement:
“Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad where we had observed other people running.“
It appears obvious to me that they were still at the fourth floor window when they observed people were running toward the railroad yards. And that this observation caused them to decide to go to the back stairs and door instead of out the front door via the elevator to Elm Street.
was already blown out of the water by Vickie Adams in her statement to the FBI on 11/24/63;
From the FD 302 report by FBI agents Hardin and Scott, dated 11/24/63, about Vickie Adams;
"After the third shot, she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away. She had not been able to fully observe the President at the exact moment he was shot, inasmuch as her view was partially obstructed. She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stars were located and ran down the stairs. No one else was observed on the stairs at this time, and she is sure that this would be the only means of escape from the building from the sixth floor. She and her friends ran out of the building, turned to the left and ran across the railroad tracks in the direction where they observed other people running...."
A statement taken two days after the assassination when her memory was still fresh.
Who would have known that some clown would try to rewrite history some 6 decades later?.....
So, please don't give me any BS about wanting to find out the truth!
You wouldn't know the truth if it hits you in the face.
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Here's a thought;
I think it is possible that the real intention of Martha Stroud's comment in the Stroud letter could well have been to discredit Vickie Adams, by making the point that, according to Garner, Truly and Baker came up after Adams went downstairs, when Adams herself had testified that she did not see or hear anybody on the stairs as she was coming down.
It backfired massively, of course, but it's food for thought nevertheless.
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Here's a thought;
I think it is possible that the real intention of Martha Stroud's comment in the Stroud letter could well have been to discredit Vickie Adams, by making the point that, according to Garner, Truly and Baker came up after Adams went downstairs, when Adams herself had testified that she did not see or hear anybody on the stairs as she was coming down.
It backfired massively, of course, but it's food for thought nevertheless.
We know that there was definitely a man with a rifle on the 6th floor, regardless of whether you believe it was Oswald or not, where did he go and how did he escape before the Press and Police arrived?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/bb/a6/7fbba62bfde1023e8cfbd7c2da3ae1ac.gif)
JohnM
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We know that there was definitely a man with a rifle on the 6th floor, regardless of whether you believe it was Oswald or not, where did he go and how did he escape before the Press and Police arrived?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/bb/a6/7fbba62bfde1023e8cfbd7c2da3ae1ac.gif)
JohnM
where did he go and how did he escape before the Press and Police arrived?
That's actually a good question. My answer is that I don't know. I can only speculate. Perhaps he simply hid somewhere on the 6th floor until it was filled by officers and then pretended to be one of them. Much like the Secret Service man who was at the parking lot behind the grassy knoll. You know, the guy who flashed a badge to a police officer, when we now know that the Secret Service had no men in that area.
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where did he go and how did he escape before the Press and Police arrived?
That's actually a good question. My answer is that I don't know. I can only speculate. Perhaps he simply hid somewhere on the 6th floor until it was filled by officers and then pretended to be one of them. Much like the Secret Service man who was at the parking lot behind the grassy knoll. You know, the guy who flashed a badge to a police officer, when we now know that the Secret Service had no men in that area.
That's actually a good question. My answer is that I don't know. I can only speculate.
Isn't the most logical answer that Oswald, the man that Brennan saw and initially almost perfectly describes, slipped down the stairs and was seen about 90 seconds later by Baker in the vestibule hurriedly walking away?
Perhaps he simply hid somewhere on the 6th floor until it was filled by officers and then pretended to be one of them. Much like the Secret Service man who was at the parking lot behind the grassy knoll. You know, the guy who flashed a badge to a police officer, when we now know that the Secret Service had no men in that area.
Interesting, the alleged "secret service man" was not surrounded by other secret service men that could easily identify him whereas as you say the 6th floor was filled with Police Officers and someone they didn't know would stick out like a sore thumb!
Btw any other ideas?
JohnM
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Isn't the most logical answer that Oswald, the man that Brennan saw and initially almost perfectly describes, slipped down the stairs and was seen about 90 seconds later by Baker in the vestibule hurriedly walking away?
Interesting, the alleged "secret service man" was not surrounded by other secret service men that could easily identify him whereas as you say the 6th floor was filled with Police Officers and someone they didn't know would stick out like a sore thumb!
Btw any other ideas?
JohnM
Interesting, the alleged "secret service man" was not surrounded by other secret service men that could easily identify him whereas as you say the 6th floor was filled with Police Officers and someone they didn't know would stick out like a sore thumb!
We know from the evidence that all sorts of people, from DPD to FBI and Secret Service, were moving around at the TSBD after the shooting. Are you really that naive as to believe they all knew eachother?
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Interesting, the alleged "secret service man" was not surrounded by other secret service men that could easily identify him whereas as you say the 6th floor was filled with Police Officers and someone they didn't know would stick out like a sore thumb!
We know from the evidence that all sorts of people, from DPD to FBI and Secret Service, were moving around at the TSBD after the shooting. Are you really that naive as to believe they all knew eachother?
WOW, what a plan, commit the murder of the century and then without the foggiest notion of who was going to be there, would decide to conceal himself like a child playing hide and seek and then suddenly jump out and attempt to blend in, all the while hoping his disguised clothing would be appropriate? Again, WOW, what a plan and this time with the foresight of Nostradamus!
Whereas anything which is much more practical involving Oswald's escape is met with a plethora of excuses and your "open mind" becomes a solid brick wall, don't you know that this deranged aversion of Oswald's guilt is seen as slightly psychotic?
JohnM
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WOW, what a plan, commit the murder of the century and then without the foggiest notion of who was going to be there, would decide to conceal himself like a child playing hide and seek and then suddenly jump out and attempt to blend in, all the while hoping his disguised clothing would be appropriate? Again, WOW, what a plan and this time with the foresight of Nostradamus!
Whereas anything which is much more practical involving Oswald's escape is met with a plethora of excuses and your "open mind" becomes a solid brick wall, don't you think that this deranged aversion of Oswald's guilt is seen as slightly psychotic?
JohnM
So, you are indeed so naive that you don't understand the concept of hiding in plain sight.
Whereas anything which is much more practical involving Oswald's escape is met with a plethora of excuses and your "open mind" becomes a solid brick wall,
No. Show me the conclusive proof that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 and came down the stairs within 75 seconds of the last, and I'll happily will accept it.
don't you think that this deranged aversion of Oswald's guilt is seen as slightly psychotic?
I don't have a deranged aversion of Oswald's guilt. As soon as you provide actual proof of his guilt, I'll gladly accept it. So, what's stopping you to provide that conclusive evidence?
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So, you are indeed so naive that you don't understand the concept of hiding in plain sight.
Huh? The only naivety on display is coming both barrels from you, the concept of hiding in plain sight" only works when the applicable rules are applied, it's all good to speculate with the appropriate knowledge in hindsight but at the time any potential assassin could only guess.
1. If only Secret Service rushed to the 6th floor and the assassin was wearing a Police Uniform he would not fit in.
2. If the Police rushed to the 6th floor then a suited gentleman would not fit in.
3. If the FBI rushed to the 6th floor and the Assassin flashed his Secret Service card he would not fit in.
So, as can be seen, some guy hiding amongst boxes and playing Jack in the Box as he suddenly exposes himself, in itself would raise serious questions and then on top of that, this man has to have the appropriate disguise and then has to have the correct identification, what you simply write of as a simple act of "hiding in plain sight" is in fact far more complicated than you can possibly understand.
Whereas we know that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest because Brennan saw him and gave a close description and 15 minutes later this description was broadcast on the Police radio and Oswald's fresh prints were discovered in the Sniper's Nest and his rifle carry bag with his prints were discovered in the Sniper's Nest and Oswald's rifle was discovered on the same floor and his prints were on the rifle and he has no alibi and 90 seconds later he decides to get a coke of all things and he was seen hurriedly moving away from Officer Baker in the vestibule in the direction away from the stairs and then Oswald decides to immediately leave in flight and, gets on and off a bus, and gets in a cab and stops way past his rooming house and gets his gun and kills a cop and discards his jacket and hides in a theatre and tries to kill more cops when arrested and while being interrogated, lies about owning the rifle and lies about living at Neely street and lies about the backyard photo and lies about the story he tells Frazier and lies about putting the long package on the back seat of Frazier's car, etc, etc, etc, etc etc!
And this is the man you want to defend? ???
Btw when in your mind, you attempt to refute each piece of this rock solid evidence with unconnected speculation, try and think of the complications of manufacturing what turned out to be a totally connected Mountain of Evidence!
Now I know that you have proven that you are beyond reason, but I simply post this for the reader who might not know what was actually involved in Oswald's guilt.
JohnM
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Several pages back I posted the plan view of the 4th floor to show Martin that this floor had 2 elevators, and I wondered why the girls didn't use the obviously much closer passenger elevator. Anyway I was having a look at the Ed Forum's thread on this subject and DVP posted this recollection from Styles in 2008.
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHgLggVX/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
It's worth noting that this elevator was working later on.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
But this elevator wasn't working for Adams when she re-entered the building, so she took the front stairs which went as far as the 2nd floor, she listened to some people for a while, then went to the rear elevator and it wasn't working so she took the rear stairs and ran up to the 4th floor. This girl surely did do a lot of running and even with 3 inch heels, what a Gal!
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?
Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
JohnM
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In that recorded interview, Adams stated she was standing at the OPEN window of the 4th floor office at the time of the shooting.
Dillard photo taken about 10 secs post shots of TSBD shows there is no one at the open window on the 4th floor office.
Hence, a good indication that Adams and Stiles did in fact leave from that office window within 10 sec post shots.
If they went from that open window to the passenger elevator they had to have traveled approx 50 ft to get to the east side passenger elevator , which adds additional time required to reach the rear staircase.
If they left the window ” immediately “ which may be as early as 5 sec post shots, and walked at heel wearing pace of 5 ft/ sec then it’s 10 secs to reach passenger elevator , 5 secs to find the elevator was not working , then the distance from passenger elevator to the rear stairs is approx 100 ft so another 20secs to trek that distance = approx 40 sec post shots when A&S started down the rear stairs.
At a stair descending pace of probably not faster than 12 secs per floor, it would have taken them 24 more secs to be starting down the 2nd floor staircase but when they reached the 1st floor not having to cross another 20 ft of floor landing, cuts off about 5 secs so that took only another 7 secs , therefore the total time required to reach 1st floor right beside the open rollup door besides the staircase = approx 70 secs.
This means that it must have taken Baker and Truly at least approx 70 secs before they both got thru The counter top desk area by Trulys office before they then started their diagonal trek towards the rear elevators, so that their LOS to the rear stairs did not begin earlier than when Adams and Stiles reach the 1st floor.
It would then take B/T 5 secs to get to the rear elevators, 5 secs for Truly to shout up to send elevators down, and about 10 secs to climb up the 18 step dog leg staircase.
Therefore the revised approx time that Truly arrived to the 2nd floor landing is right at 90 secs post shots.
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In that recorded interview, Adams stated she was standing at the OPEN window of the 4th floor office at the time of the shooting.
Dillard photo taken about 10 secs post shots of TSBD shows there is no one at the open window on the 4th floor office.
Hence, a good indication that Adams and Stiles did in fact leave from that office window within 10 sec post shots.
If they went from that open window to the passenger elevator they had to have traveled approx 50 ft to get to the east side passenger elevator , which adds additional time required to reach the rear staircase.
If they left the window ” immediately “ which may be as early as 5 sec post shots, and walked at heel wearing pace of 5 ft/ sec then it’s 10 secs to reach passenger elevator , 5 secs to find the elevator was not working , then the distance from passenger elevator to the rear stairs is approx 100 ft so another 20secs to trek that distance = approx 40 sec post shots when A&S started down the rear stairs.
At a stair descending pace of probably not faster than 12 secs per floor, it would have taken them 24 more secs to be starting down the 2nd floor staircase but when they reached the 1st floor not having to cross another 20 ft of floor landing, cuts off about 5 secs so that took only another 7 secs , therefore the total time required to reach 1st floor right beside the open rollup door besides the staircase = approx 70 secs.
This means that it must have taken Baker and Truly at least approx 70 secs before they both got thru The counter top desk area by Trulys office before they then started their diagonal trek towards the rear elevators, so that their LOS to the rear stairs did not begin earlier than when Adams and Stiles reach the 1st floor.
It would then take B/T 5 secs to get to the rear elevators, 5 secs for Truly to shout up to send elevators down, and about 10 secs to climb up the 18 step dog leg staircase.
Therefore the revised approx time that Truly arrived to the 2nd floor landing is right at 90 secs post shots.
Adams says she was at the 6th window across which is open in Dillard, but Adams was also with Garner and Elsie Dorman who was definitely at that window filming the Limo at the top end of Houston and neither woman can be seen? Also Garner says Adams and Styles just disappeared without her knowing which suggests to me that those two women were behind her? It is possible that Adams, Styles and Garner were already gone but where is Dorman who we definitely know was at that window filming the President?
Oswald was also gone from the Sniper's nest window and the angled sniper's rifle rest box is clearly visible and the box directly behind the rifle rest box had Oswald's fresh prints on top which were oriented down Elm Street.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBQJ9vK0/dillard-just-after-full.jpg)
The 8mm films were synchronized in this video which gives some idea of the time that Dorman was confirmed to be in the window.
JohnM
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Huh? The only naivety on display is coming both barrels from you, the concept of hiding in plain sight" only works when the applicable rules are applied, it's all good to speculate with the appropriate knowledge in hindsight but at the time any potential assassin could only guess.
1. If only Secret Service rushed to the 6th floor and the assassin was wearing a Police Uniform he would not fit in.
2. If the Police rushed to the 6th floor then a suited gentleman would not fit in.
3. If the FBI rushed to the 6th floor and the Assassin flashed his Secret Service card he would not fit in.
So, as can be seen, some guy hiding amongst boxes and playing Jack in the Box as he suddenly exposes himself, in itself would raise serious questions and then on top of that, this man has to have the appropriate disguise and then has to have the correct identification, what you simply write of as a simple act of "hiding in plain sight" is in fact far more complicated than you can possibly understand.
Whereas we know that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest because Brennan saw him and gave a close description and 15 minutes later this description was broadcast on the Police radio and Oswald's fresh prints were discovered in the Sniper's Nest and his rifle carry bag with his prints were discovered in the Sniper's Nest and Oswald's rifle was discovered on the same floor and his prints were on the rifle and he has no alibi and 90 seconds later he decides to get a coke of all things and he was seen hurriedly moving away from Officer Baker in the vestibule in the direction away from the stairs and then Oswald decides to immediately leave in flight and, gets on and off a bus, and gets in a cab and stops way past his rooming house and gets his gun and kills a cop and discards his jacket and hides in a theatre and tries to kill more cops when arrested and while being interrogated, lies about owning the rifle and lies about living at Neely street and lies about the backyard photo and lies about the story he tells Frazier and lies about putting the long package on the back seat of Frazier's car, etc, etc, etc, etc etc!
And this is the man you want to defend? ???
Btw when in your mind, you attempt to refute each piece of this rock solid evidence with unconnected speculation, try and think of the complications of manufacturing what turned out to be a totally connected Mountain of Evidence!
Now I know that you have proven that you are beyond reason, but I simply post this for the reader who might not know what was actually involved in Oswald's guilt.
JohnM
Huh? The only naivety on display is coming both barrels from you, the concept of hiding in plain sight" only works when the applicable rules are applied, it's all good to speculate with the appropriate knowledge in hindsight but at the time any potential assassin could only guess.
1. If only Secret Service rushed to the 6th floor and the assassin was wearing a Police Uniform he would not fit in.
2. If the Police rushed to the 6th floor then a suited gentleman would not fit in.
3. If the FBI rushed to the 6th floor and the Assassin flashed his Secret Service card he would not fit in.
So, as can be seen, some guy hiding amongst boxes and playing Jack in the Box as he suddenly exposes himself, in itself would raise serious questions and then on top of that, this man has to have the appropriate disguise and then has to have the correct identification, what you simply write of as a simple act of "hiding in plain sight" is in fact far more complicated than you can possibly understand.
Utter BS from the fool who thinks he never fails.
Would hiding in plain sight be risky? Sure, there would always be a certain amount of risk involved. But the same goes for running down the stairs where at any time police officers could come up!
Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor, near the sniper's nest and was unable to see anybody in it. If the killer had carried an official law enforcement badge and was hidden by some boxes on the other side of the 6th floor, he could have shown himself as soon as the first couple of officers had arrived on the 6th floor. The officers coming up from behind would have been none the wiser and believe had just had come up before them and those already on the floor, if they even noticed him, would have accepted the badge and carried on searching the floor. For crying out loud, for Baker was Truly saying that Oswald was an employee enough to let him go.
Whereas we know that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest because Brennan saw him and gave a close description and 15 minutes later this description was broadcast on the Police radio and Oswald's fresh prints were discovered in the Sniper's Nest and his rifle carry bag with his prints were discovered in the Sniper's Nest and Oswald's rifle was discovered on the same floor and his prints were on the rifle and he has no alibi and 90 seconds later he decides to get a coke of all things and he was seen hurriedly moving away from Officer Baker in the vestibule in the direction away from the stairs and then Oswald decides to immediately leave in flight and, gets on and off a bus, and gets in a cab and stops way past his rooming house and gets his gun and kills a cop and discards his jacket and hides in a theatre and tries to kill more cops when arrested and while being interrogated, lies about owning the rifle and lies about living at Neely street and lies about the backyard photo and lies about the story he tells Frazier and lies about putting the long package on the back seat of Frazier's car, etc, etc, etc, etc etc!
Wow, sounds convincing, if all of it was actually true. The problem is that there simply isn't conclusive proof for most of the claims that are being made here. For instance, it wasn't Brennan's description that was broadcast on the police radio, and Brennan originally couldn't identify Oswald in the line up. That only happened after some "persuasion". The assumption that the magical bag that first wasn't and then suddenly was found in the sniper's nest and never photographed in situ was ever used to carry the rifle is nothing more than indeed an assumption... etc,etc,etc,etc, etc!
Oh yeah, one more thing; if Oswald wanted to flee (as you suggest) he could have simply left the stairs on the 2nd floor and kept on walking through the office space and out the front door. He wouldn't have to hang around in the lunchroom.
And this is the man you want to defend? ???
No, I don't want to defend Oswald. I have no horse in this race at all and have never ever claimed he was innocent or guilty for that matter. But a fanatical zealot like you will never see it that way. For you, anybody who doesn't instantly accept the BS that you are trying to sell must be a defender of Oswald. If he is guilty then so be it, but his guilt should be demonstrated by conclusive evidence and this so-called "mountain of evidence" of yours is in reality a minor molehill of speculation and biased conjecture. Make enough assumptions and you can "prove" anybody is guilty of anything!
The desperate way in which you try to defend and justify all the massive problems there are with the evidence, like ignoring witnesses and calling people like Adams and Garner liars, as if it is all irrelevant to the outcome of the investigation, tells me beyond reasonable doubt that what we are told simply isn't what actually happened. It's the antics of people like you which creates doubt about the verasity of the evidence!
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Several pages back I posted the plan view of the 4th floor to show Martin that this floor had 2 elevators, and I wondered why the girls didn't use the obviously much closer passenger elevator. Anyway I was having a look at the Ed Forum's thread on this subject and DVP posted this recollection from Styles in 2008.
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHgLggVX/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
It's worth noting that this elevator was working later on.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
But this elevator wasn't working for Adams when she re-entered the building, so she took the front stairs which went as far as the 2nd floor, she listened to some people for a while, then went to the rear elevator and it wasn't working so she took the rear stairs and ran up to the 4th floor. This girl surely did do a lot of running and even with 3 inch heels, what a Gal!
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?
Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
JohnM
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
Interesting! I suppose that if Belin had decided to time her trek to the first floor this would have been documented. Barry Ernest’s book “The Girl on the Stairs” is copyrighted 2013. This should have come up in all his dealings with Victoria Adams. Deception by omission is one of the tricks used by CT authors. This makes me wonder about Barry.
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Cops did not rush to the 6th
Baker hardly looked at the 6th floor from the elevator on the way down. DPD Luke Mooney was the first up in
the nest, but not until about 1pm - shells (in plain sight) were not reported until 42 minutes after the shooting.
And Jack Dougherty (on 5th floor) didn't say what time this happened and as usual, the attorney failed to asked:
Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials,
but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him.
Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him,
and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
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"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
Interesting! I suppose that if Belin had decided to time her trek to the first floor this would have been documented. Barry Ernest’s book “The Girl on the Stairs” is copyrighted 2013. This should have come up in all his dealings with Victoria Adams. Deception by omission is one of the tricks used by CT authors. This makes me wonder about Barry.
A recollection by Styles 45 years after the event is more important to the LNs, than Adam's statement to the FBI two days after the shooting, because Styles says something they like. Never mind that she told different stories at different times and at least once also clearly stated that she could be wrong and that Adams probably had the best recollection.
Interesting! I suppose that if Belin had decided to time her trek to the first floor this would have been documented.
Indeed, but Belin didn't want to find out. Makes me wonder about Belin's motives, but I'm sure you're fine with it.
This should have come up in all his dealings with Victoria Adams. Deception by omission is one of the tricks used by CT authors. This makes me wonder about Barry.
It doesn't make me wonder about you. It's all just bias! The fact that you call someting "deception by omission" just because you feel it should have come up but didn't is pathetic!
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Here's a puzzle the LNs won't be able to solve.
They claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th window immediately after the shots and they use Adams' seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor as "proof".
The problem with that "proof" is that Shelley and Lovelady did not re-enter the TSBD until about 5 minutes after the shots, and we know for a fact that Styles re-entered the building at the front entrance before it was locked down at 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness). There's even a photograph of Styles standing next to the car of one of the officers who had just arrived there to lock down the building. We also know that Adams and Styles had to go down the stairs and then walk around the building to the front entrance.
If, as Mytton claims,
We know it was longer than 30 seconds. End of story.
JohnM
the LNs should be able to explain how Adams and Styles managed to get to the front entrance of the building at 12:36, if they indeed waited more than 30 seconds and did indeed see Shelley and Lovelady some 5 minutes after the shooting.
If they can't explain this, their entire claim is obviously bogus!
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Here's a puzzle the LNs won't be able to solve.
They claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th window immediately after the shots and they use Adams' seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor as "proof".
The problem with that "proof" is that Shelley and Lovelady did not re-enter the TSBD until about 5 minutes after the shots, and we know for a fact that Styles re-entered the building at the front entrance before it was locked down at 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness). There's even a photograph of Styles standing next to the car of one of the officers who had just arrived there to lock down the building. We also know that Adams and Styles had to go down the stairs and then walk around the building to the front entrance.
If, as Mytton claims,
the LNs should be able to explain how Adams and Styles managed to get to the front entrance of the building at 12:36, if they indeed waited more than 30 seconds and did indeed see Shelley and Lovelady some 5 minutes after the shooting.
If they can't explain this, their entire claim is obviously bogus!
Det Sawyer explains that the front of the building was not locked down until 12:37 when he stationed two officers to prevent people from re-entering the building.
Sargeant Harkness stated the rear of the building was locked down by 12:36. Adams and Styles were told to return to the front of the building by an officer.
Adams and Styles encounter with Lovelady and Shelley at 12:35 fits neatly into the timeline indicated by Sawyer and Harkness.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
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Det Sawyer explains that the front of the building was not locked down until 12:37 when he stationed two officers to prevent people from re-entering the building.
Sargeant Harkness stated the rear of the building was locked down by 12:36. Adams and Styles were told to return to the front of the building by an officer.
Adams and Styles encounter with Lovelady and Shelley at 12:35 fits neatly into the timeline indicated by Sawyer and Harkness.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
So, what's your point. Do you really think one minute makes a difference to the puzzle?
Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down, which means somewhere between 12:36 and 12:37.
Do you really think that Adams and Styles were able to cover three sides of the building in high heels in 2 minutes?
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So, what's your point. Do you really think one minute makes a difference to the puzzle?
Styles re-entered the building before it was locked down, which means somewhere between 12:36 and 12:37.
Do you really think that Adams and Styles were able to cover three sides of the building in high heels in 2 minutes?
Yes, it is nothing more than Adams and Styles statements being matched up with Lovelady and Shelley's statements and the officers' time stamps.
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Yes, it is nothing more than Adams and Styles statements being matched up with Lovelady and Shelley's statements and the officers' time stamps.
Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.
Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.
It's typical LN BS to dismiss everything the witnesses (in this case Adams and Garner) said, and call them liars (as Mytton did), except for the one part that fits their narrative but is physically simply impossible and does not match with all the other evidence.
So, let's follow the actual evidence and match up the statements!
Adams said she left the window immediately after the shots and went down the stairs. That took her roughly a minute (any longer and she would have run into Truly and Baker). Then she and Styles went down the stairs of the loading dock, turned left and ran towards the railway yard. That's another minute or so. They meet a policeman who tells them to return to the building, so they walk along side the annex of the building towards Elm street, there they turn left and walk along the front of the building towards the main entrance. That would have taken them another 2 minutes or so and gets them to the front door steps at roughly 12:34 or 12:35. Two minutes later Styles is photographed standing next to the steps.
The key point is that they would have been west of the building around 2 minutes or so after the shots, which is exactly when Lovelady and Shelley were there as well.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Lovelady confirms that they started running towards the railroad tracks after first talking to Gloria Calvary. While running towards the railway tracks he saw Truly and Baker enter the building. That puts the start of their run at around 20 to 30 seconds after the shots.
<>
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
They then stayed about a estimated minute or a minute and a half at the west side of the building, which is roughly the same time Adams and Styles arrived at that location as well.
Shelley confirms Lovelady's statement;
Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Except Shelley estimated they stayed west of the building for "maybe a minute or two".
Obviously, these times are not precise to the exact second, but they are close enough to conclude that Shelley and Lovelady were west of the building at the same time Adams and Styles were there.
If Adams and Styles had waited at the window some 75 seconds, as Charles Collins tried to suggest, they would have run into Truly and Baker on the stairs. That didn't happen.
Also, in that scenario, Dorothy Garner would not have been able to hear the women go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up.
If they had stayed even longer at the window, they most likely would have missed Shelley and Lovelady all together, as they entered the TSBD through a door on the west side of the building and Adams and Styles came from behind the building. They also, in such a scenario, would not have been able to get to the front entrance before it was locked down.
You can twist and turn this thing anyway you like, but the only thing that you will never be able to get is Shelley and Lovelady standing somewhere on the first floor for Adams to see them as she came down the stairs. It simply doesn't match any scenario, although I fully expect that you will never accept that.
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Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.
Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.
It's typical LN BS to dismiss everything the witnesses (in this case Adams and Garner) said, and call them liars (as Mytton did), except for the one part that fits their narrative but is physically simply impossible and does not match with all the other evidence.
So, let's follow the actual evidence and match up the statements!
Adams said she left the window immediately after the shots and went down the stairs. That took her roughly a minute (any longer and she would have run into Truly and Baker). Then she and Styles went down the stairs of the loading dock, turned left and ran towards the railway yard. That's another minute or so. They meet a policeman who tells them to return to the building, so they walk along side the annex of the building towards Elm street, there they turn left and walk along the front of the building towards the main entrance. That would have taken them another 2 minutes or so and gets them to the front door steps at roughly 12:34 or 12:35. Two minutes later Styles is photographed standing next to the steps.
The key point is that they would have been west of the building around 2 minutes or so after the shots, which is exactly when Lovelady and Shelley were there as well.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Lovelady confirms that they started running towards the railroad tracks after first talking to Gloria Calvary. While running towards the railway tracks he saw Truly and Baker enter the building. That puts the start of their run at around 20 to 30 seconds after the shots.
<>
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
They then stayed about a estimated minute or a minute and a half at the west side of the building, which is roughly the same time Adams and Styles arrived at that location as well.
Shelley confirms Lovelady's statement;
Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Except Shelley estimated they stayed west of the building for "maybe a minute or two".
Obviously, these times are not precise to the exact second, but they are close enough to conclude that Shelley and Lovelady were west of the building at the same time Adams and Styles were there.
If Adams and Styles had waited at the window some 75 seconds, as Charles Collins tried to suggest, they would have run into Truly and Baker on the stairs. That didn't happen.
Also, in that scenario, Dorothy Garner would not have been able to hear the women go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up.
If they had stayed even longer at the window, they most likely would have missed Shelley and Lovelady all together, as they entered the TSBD through a door on the west side of the building and Adams and Styles came from behind the building. They also, in such a scenario, would not have been able to get to the front entrance before it was locked down.
You can twist and turn this thing anyway you like, but the only thing that you will never be able to get is Shelley and Lovelady standing somewhere on the first floor for Adams to see them as she came down the stairs. It simply doesn't match any scenario, although I fully expect that you will never accept that.
You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.
MW--Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.
I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?
MW--Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.
Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.
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Here's a puzzle the LNs won't be able to solve.
They claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th window immediately after the shots and they use Adams' seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor as "proof".
The problem with that "proof" is that Shelley and Lovelady did not re-enter the TSBD until about 5 minutes after the shots, and we know for a fact that Styles re-entered the building at the front entrance before it was locked down at 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness). There's even a photograph of Styles standing next to the car of one of the officers who had just arrived there to lock down the building. We also know that Adams and Styles had to go down the stairs and then walk around the building to the front entrance.
If, as Mytton claims,
the LNs should be able to explain how Adams and Styles managed to get to the front entrance of the building at 12:36, if they indeed waited more than 30 seconds and did indeed see Shelley and Lovelady some 5 minutes after the shooting.
If they can't explain this, their entire claim is obviously bogus!
The bogus item here is the idea that the building was "locked down" at 12:36.
Harkness' 12:36 transmission reads: "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." That is, Harkness expresses the intent do lock down the building, and he hasn't begun to do it yet.
At the time Harkness made this transmission, he's at the west end of Old Elm, past the pergola, having just run into Amos Euins. He put Euins on the back of his trike, and drove him to the front of the TSBD. The Martin film shows Harkness trundling back to the TSBD with Euins on the back of his ride....while Inspector Sawyer's car pulls to the curb in the background. Sawyer, then, doesn't arrive at the TSBD until 12:36 at the earliest.
Once out of the car, Sawyer gets update on the situation by the officers there, then goes into the TSBD with them into the building. Sawyer's group takes the front elevator up to the 4th floor and looks around, running into Truly as he's on his way down from the roof. Seeing nothing incriminating on the fourth floor, Sawyer's group then takes the elevator back down to the first floor, then leave the building. This is the point in time where Sawyer says he stationed two officers at the front door with orders to no let anyone in or out.
Sawyer thought that three minutes elapsed from the time he got out of his car until he returned outside from the fourth floor expedition. So if arrives no earlier than 12:36, then the front door guard is posted no sooner than 12:39. I should point out that Sawyer's group spent enough time on the fourth floor that they made it back to a point near the back stairs for Truly to have seen them. Between 12:41 and 12:43 (and probably closer to 12:43 than 12:41) Sawyer makes his first broadcast of the afternoon, asking that more officers be sent to the TSBD. So Sawyer has to have returned from the 4th floor by then.
The upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43.
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You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.
MW--Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.
I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?
MW--Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.
Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.
You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.
BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.
Mr. BELIN - Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?
Miss ADAMS - At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.
Mr. BELIN - No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Adams confirms that she was already "within the tracks", which are west of the building, when a police officer told her to go back
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
You can not produce a shred of evidence that there was an officer at the back of the building, because that's simply a lie!
I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?
Funny. Yet you claim they could have run the distance of three sides of the building and partly on railroad tracks in two minutes. Go figure!
Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?
I believe everything else they said simply because it matches all the other evidence. The only thing that doesn't fit is the location where Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady. LNs constantly complain about the fact that all the evidence should be considered combined, yet as soon as it becomes convenient you focus in on one anomaly (likely due to something being misremembered) and ignore everything else.
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.
Anybody who says something this dumb doesn't know or understand the evidence or is simply lying.
Adams said she left the window immediately, which was confirmed by Garner. The latter also stated the women went down the stairs before Truly and a police man came up. It didn't take the men more than four minutes to get to the 4th floor.
But since you claim that there is evidence for a four minutes delay everywhere, why don't you simply produce it instead of merely claiming there is?
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The bogus item here is the idea that the building was "locked down" at 12:36.
Harkness' 12:36 transmission reads: "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." That is, Harkness expresses the intent do lock down the building, and he hasn't begun to do it yet.
At the time Harkness made this transmission, he's at the west end of Old Elm, past the pergola, having just run into Amos Euins. He put Euins on the back of his trike, and drove him to the front of the TSBD. The Martin film shows Harkness trundling back to the TSBD with Euins on the back of his ride....while Inspector Sawyer's car pulls to the curb in the background. Sawyer, then, doesn't arrive at the TSBD until 12:36 at the earliest.
Once out of the car, Sawyer gets update on the situation by the officers there, then goes into the TSBD with them into the building. Sawyer's group takes the front elevator up to the 4th floor and looks around, running into Truly as he's on his way down from the roof. Seeing nothing incriminating on the fourth floor, Sawyer's group then takes the elevator back down to the first floor, then leave the building. This is the point in time where Sawyer says he stationed two officers at the front door with orders to no let anyone in or out.
Sawyer thought that three minutes elapsed from the time he got out of his car until he returned outside from the fourth floor expedition. So if arrives no earlier than 12:36, then the front door guard is posted no sooner than 12:39. I should point out that Sawyer's group spent enough time on the fourth floor that they made it back to a point near the back stairs for Truly to have seen them. Between 12:41 and 12:43 (and probably closer to 12:43 than 12:41) Sawyer makes his first broadcast of the afternoon, asking that more officers be sent to the TSBD. So Sawyer has to have returned from the 4th floor by then.
The upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43.
What makes you think that Sawyer did not leave a man behind at the front door when he entered the building?
12:36 Channel 1 260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness) Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.
12:37 Channel 2 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer) We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building
Dispatcher All right, do you have the building covered off?
137 No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
Dispatcher All right, pull on down there.
Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building.
And Sawyer also testified;
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
You kinda left out the parts in bold. I can only wonder why.
Oh btw, Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and she entered the building before it was locked down. Adams tried to follow her a couple of minutes later and was stopped.
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What makes you think that Sawyer did not leave a man behind at the front door when he entered the building?
12:36 Channel 1 260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness) Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.
12:37 Channel 2 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer) We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building
Dispatcher All right, do you have the building covered off?
137 No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
Dispatcher All right, pull on down there.
Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building.
Oh btw, Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and she entered the building before it was locked down. Adams tried to follow her a couple of minutes later and was stopped.
You're working from inaccurate transcripts. Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.
Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds. His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.
In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.
Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (nota DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.
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You're working from inaccurate transcripts. Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.
Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds. His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.
In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.
Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (nota DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.
You're working from inaccurate transcripts.
Really? And why are you so sure your transcripts are the correct ones?
Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.
Better check again. My quote is from a broadcast on channel 1. A few seconds earlier Harkness says on channel 2 "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm". In that broadcast he did not say; "I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." He said that on channel 1.
Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds.
No, the transcript I am using for channel 2 is the one used by the WC. In that one Brewer's transmission begins after the dispatcher announced 12:37.
His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.
Speculation
In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.
Just because they can't be seen in the Martin film (which I haven't checked btw) doesn't mean there were no other officers there.
Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (nota DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.
Really. Is there a clock visible or a timestamp on those photos? In any event, it's hardly relevant to the discussion as we are talking about the front entrance where Styles re-entered the building. I couldn't care less if all the doors to the annex at the west side were still wide open. Styles wasn't there.
You either ignored or missed what Sawyer said in his testimony;
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!
This of course means that Styles was photographed next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building between 12:36 and before 12:39 (at the latest)!
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What makes you think that Sawyer did not leave a man behind at the front door when he entered the building?
12:36 Channel 1 260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness) Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.
12:37 Channel 2 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer) We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building
Dispatcher All right, do you have the building covered off?
137 No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
Dispatcher All right, pull on down there.
Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building.
Thumb1:
I'm so glad you are embracing the Dallas Police Radio Tapes!
1:16 Citizen Hello, police operator?
Dispatcher Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
Citizen There's been a shooting out here.
Dispatcher Where's it at?
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio . . .
Citizen Tenth Street.
Dispatcher What location on Tenth Street?
Citizen Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404 Tenth Street.
Dispatcher Can you hear me?
(Man and woman's voices in background)
Dispatcher 78.
Citizen It's in a police car, number 10.
Dispatcher 78.
Dispatcher (?) 78.
Citizen Got that?
Citizen Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
Dispatcher Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
Citizen Thank you.
35 (Ptm. J.M. Lewis) 35.
259 (unknown) 259.
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio: Remain off the radio now.
1:19 602 (ambulance) What was that address on Jefferson?
Dispatcher 501 East Tenth.
JohnM
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Thumb1:
I'm so glad you are embracing the Dallas Police Radio Tapes!
1:16 Citizen Hello, police operator?
Dispatcher Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
Citizen There's been a shooting out here.
Dispatcher Where's it at?
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio . . .
Citizen Tenth Street.
Dispatcher What location on Tenth Street?
Citizen Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404 Tenth Street.
Dispatcher Can you hear me?
(Man and woman's voices in background)
Dispatcher 78.
Citizen It's in a police car, number 10.
Dispatcher 78.
Dispatcher (?) 78.
Citizen Got that?
Citizen Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
Dispatcher Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
Citizen Thank you.
35 (Ptm. J.M. Lewis) 35.
259 (unknown) 259.
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio: Remain off the radio now.
1:19 602 (ambulance) What was that address on Jefferson?
Dispatcher 501 East Tenth.
JohnM
Yes I do embrace them until the 2 minutes long silence between 1:09 and 1:12 and a minutes long slice between 1:12 and 1:15 as well as hardly any radio communication on channel one between the end of Bowley's call and the time call of 1:19. And of course Bowles telling us that timestamps called out by dispatchers do not reflect real time and could be off by several minutes. The fact that there were several conflicting transcripts also did no good for the credibility of the recordings after 1 PM.
Must all be a coincidence, right?
Still trying to score cheap points, I see.... and again failing miserably.
Do you have anything contributory to share or are you just going to keep on trolling?
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Yes I do embrace them until the 2 minutes long silence between 1:09 and 1:12 and a minutes long slice between 1:12 and 1:15 as well as hardly any radio communication on channel one between the end of Bowley's call and the time call of 1:19. And of course Bowles telling us that timestamps called out by dispatchers do not reflect real time and could be off by several minutes. The fact that there were several conflicting transcripts also did no good for the credibility of the recordings after 1 PM.
Must all be a coincident, right?
Still trying to score cheap points, I see.... and again failing miserably.
Do you have anything contributory to share or are you just going to keep on trolling?
Yes I do embrace them until....
How convenient! LOLOL!
1:15 Dispatcher 10-4, 603. 1:15.
20 (Sgt. S.N. Burkhart) 20.
45 (Ptm. N.L. Stanglin) 45.
Dispatcher 45.
45 There's a minor accident in the 5700 block Live Oak. Do you want me to stay here or answer my call? >
Dispatcher Handle the accident. Disregard Live Oak.
45 10-4.
Dispatcher 91.
91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson) 222 en route?
Dispatcher Yes.
91 What's his location?
Dispatcher Location?
222 (Ptm. V.R. Nolan) Sylvan and Colorado.
Dispatcher Location?
222 Colorado and Sylvan.
Dispatcher Sylvan and Colorado, 91.
91 10-4.
1:16 Dispatcher Signal 9, contact the manager, 4916 Live Oak. 1:16.
47 (Ptm. W.F. Morris) 4916 Live Oak.
69 (Ptm. A.R. Brock) 69 clear at the garage.
Dispatcher 69 clear. 1:16.
1:16 Citizen Hello, police operator?
Dispatcher Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
Citizen There's been a shooting out here.
Dispatcher Where's it at?
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio . . .
Citizen Tenth Street.
Dispatcher What location on Tenth Street?
Citizen Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404 Tenth Street.
Dispatcher Can you hear me?
(Man and woman's voices in background)
Dispatcher 78.
Citizen It's in a police car, number 10.
Dispatcher 78.
Dispatcher (?) 78.
Citizen Got that?
Citizen Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
Dispatcher Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
Citizen Thank you.
35 (Ptm. J.M. Lewis) 35.
259 (unknown) 259.
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio: Remain off the radio now.
1:19 Dispatcher 10-4, 603 and 602. 1:19.
602 (ambulance) What was that address on Jefferson?
Dispatcher 501 East Tenth.
JohnM
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How convenient! LOLOL!
1:15 Dispatcher 10-4, 603. 1:15.
20 (Sgt. S.N. Burkhart) 20.
45 (Ptm. N.L. Stanglin) 45.
Dispatcher 45.
45 There's a minor accident in the 5700 block Live Oak. Do you want me to stay here or answer my call? >
Dispatcher Handle the accident. Disregard Live Oak.
45 10-4.
Dispatcher 91.
91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson) 222 en route?
Dispatcher Yes.
91 What's his location?
Dispatcher Location?
222 (Ptm. V.R. Nolan) Sylvan and Colorado.
Dispatcher Location?
222 Colorado and Sylvan.
Dispatcher Sylvan and Colorado, 91.
91 10-4.
1:16 Dispatcher Signal 9, contact the manager, 4916 Live Oak. 1:16.
47 (Ptm. W.F. Morris) 4916 Live Oak.
69 (Ptm. A.R. Brock) 69 clear at the garage.
Dispatcher 69 clear. 1:16.
1:16 Citizen Hello, police operator?
Dispatcher Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
Citizen There's been a shooting out here.
Dispatcher Where's it at?
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio . . .
Citizen Tenth Street.
Dispatcher What location on Tenth Street?
Citizen Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404 Tenth Street.
Dispatcher Can you hear me?
(Man and woman's voices in background)
Dispatcher 78.
Citizen It's in a police car, number 10.
Dispatcher 78.
Dispatcher (?) 78.
Citizen Got that?
Citizen Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
Dispatcher Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
Citizen Thank you.
35 (Ptm. J.M. Lewis) 35.
259 (unknown) 259.
Dispatcher The citizen using the police radio: Remain off the radio now.
1:19 602 (ambulance) What was that address on Jefferson?
Dispatcher 501 East Tenth.
Dispatcher 10-4, 605. 1:19.
JohnM
So continue trolling it is Thumb1:
How convenient! LOLOL!
The fact that there are all sorts of problems with the recordings between 1:09 and 1:15 is surely convenient for the official fairytale. Not so much for the fact-finders and the truth.
We're discussing Adams' timeline here, so don't even bother trying to divert the discussion to the Tippit murder. You won't get another reply.
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So continue trolling it is Thumb1:
How convenient! LOLOL!
The fact that there are all sorts of problems with the recordings between 1:09 and 1:15 is surely convenient for the official fairytale. Not so much for the fact-finders and the truth.
We're discussing Adams' timeline here, so don't even bother trying to divert the discussion to the Tippit murder. You won't get another reply.
Good, I don't want another one of your boring, biased, uninformed, silly replies!
Anyway, for anyone who wants to know the truth, the Police Despatcher on Channel 1 gives constant time checks and in the video below you can follow along with the transcript! It's as simple as that.
@ about 55:30 in the video is equivalent to 1:16 in the transcript.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm
And one last consideration for the consistency of the times, Channel 1 just before assassination gives a time check of 12:28 then after a period of timed static picks up again at 12:34, And Channel 2 at just after the time check of 12:28 and the last transmission before 12:30, Curry describes approaching the triple underpass then the Channel 2 despatcher gives a time check at 12:30 and all hell is breaking loose. So as expected the times on this day, the most important day in the Dallas Police Department's year, the times were perfect!
(https://i.postimg.cc/13P79zsV/12-30-in-sync.jpg)
JohnM
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You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.
BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.
Mr. BELIN - Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?
Miss ADAMS - At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.
Mr. BELIN - No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Adams confirms that she was already "within the tracks", which are west of the building, when a police officer told her to go back
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
You can not produce a shred of evidence that there was an officer at the back of the building, because that's simply a lie!
I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?
Funny. Yet you claim they could have run the distance of three sides of the building and partly on railroad tracks in two minutes. Go figure!
Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?
I believe everything else they said simply because it matches all the other evidence. The only thing that doesn't fit is the location where Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady. LNs constantly complain about the fact that all the evidence should be considered combined, yet as soon as it becomes convenient you focus in on one anomaly (likely due to something being misremembered) and ignore everything else.
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.
Anybody who says something this dumb doesn't know or understand the evidence or is simply lying.
Adams said she left the window immediately, which was confirmed by Garner. The latter also stated the women went down the stairs before Truly and a police man came up. It didn't take the men more than four minutes to get to the 4th floor.
But since you claim that there is evidence for a four minutes delay everywhere, why don't you simply produce it instead of merely claiming there is?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.”
Maybe try again. I think he is talking about Westbrook. There was more than one policeman in Dealey Plaza that day going in different directions.
“Adams confirms that she was already "within the tracks", which are west of the building, when a police officer told her to go back”
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
She was talking about the tracks directly behind the TSBD. They were just locking down the building not half of Dallas.
The tracks are immediately behind the building. The key is they then went Southwest inside of the tracks. Southwest from the rail yard does not lead back to the TSBD, it leads out into Dallas.
“Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.’
------------------
Funny. Yet you claim they could have run the distance of three sides of the building and partly on railroad tracks in two minutes. Go figure!
How far do you think it was? The building is 100ft x 100ft, making your estimate of how far they went less than 300 feet, not a marathon. It can’t be to treacherous they walk through the parking lot every day.
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Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.”
Maybe try again. I think he is talking about Westbrook. There was more than one policeman in Dealey Plaza that day going in different directions.
`
What you think is hardly relevant. Show me the evidence for it.
“Adams confirms that she was already "within the tracks", which are west of the building, when a police officer told her to go back”
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
She was talking about the tracks directly behind the TSBD. They were just locking down the building not half of Dallas.
The tracks are immediately behind the building. The key is they then went Southwest inside of the tracks. Southwest from the rail yard does not lead back to the TSBD, it leads out into Dallas.
“Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.’
------------------
She was talking about the tracks directly behind the TSBD.
Another opinion for which you offer no evidence. Adams said "I went west towards the tracks". The single track behind the TSBD was directly next to the loading dock. She would not have to run west to get to them. Also, after the police man told them to go back into the building they kept on walking to the front entrance, where they finally did enter. That wouldn't make much sense, if they were still behind the TSBD, because there they could have just turned around and go back inside.
Adams confirmed in her testimony that nobody stopped her as she got out of the building.
Mr. BELIN - No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Obviously, there was nobody there to stop her!
They were just locking down the building not half of Dallas.
Who said the police man she encountered was involved in locking down the building? Lovelady, who was running to the west of the building, said "policemen starting running out that way",
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
so there were policemen in the area west of the building well before they started to lockdown the building. In fact, Styles was already near the front entrance before they started the lockdown. She's photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and he arrived at 12:36.
Funny. Yet you claim they could have run the distance of three sides of the building and partly on railroad tracks in two minutes. Go figure!
How far do you think it was? The building is 100ft x 100ft, making your estimate of how far they went less than 300 feet, not a marathon. It can’t be to treacherous they walk through the parking lot every day.
Who says they walked through the parking lot every day?
Btw, I asked you to provide evidence for this claim;
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.
So, why haven't you produced it? You seem to be big on claims but very low on providing evidence to back it up
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What you think is hardly relevant. Show me the evidence for it.
She was talking about the tracks directly behind the TSBD.
Another opinion for which you offer no evidence. Adams said "I went west towards the tracks". The single track behind the TSBD was directly next to the loading dock. She would not have to run west to get to them. Also, after the police man told them to go back into the building they kept on walking to the front entrance, where they finally did enter. That wouldn't make much sense, if they were still behind the TSBD, because there they could have just turned around and go back inside.
Adams confirmed in her testimony that nobody stopped her as she got out of the building.
Mr. BELIN - No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Obviously, there was nobody there to stop her!
They were just locking down the building not half of Dallas.
Who said the police man she encountered was involved in locking down the building? Lovelady, who was running to the west of the building, said "policemen starting running out that way",
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
so there were policemen in the area west of the building well before they started to lockdown the building. In fact, Styles was already near the front entrance before they started the lockdown. She's photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and he arrived at 12:36.
Who says they walked through the parking lot every day?
Btw, I asked you to provide evidence for this claim;
So, why haven't you produced it? You seem to be big on claims but very low on providing evidence to back it up
This is interesting. It answers all of your questions. A timeline proposed by Martin Weidmann. It shows Martin Weidmann is well aware of who interacted with who, Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvary not Westbrook, and Adams and Styles encountering the Policeman at the NW corner of the TSBD and being told to return to the front of the building. Martin then estimates it takes one to two minutes for Adams and Styles to “walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension”, to return to the front of the building. When did you start claiming the girls were at the railroad yard? It is clear you did not in this timeline.
It would take them two minutes to walk a couple of hundred feet only if they were dragging a leg or crawling.
There are a number of things wrong with this timeline, but the thing Martin is most wrong about is when did the girls leave. Fortunately, Officer Harkness (12:36) and Detective Sawyer (12:37) apply the proper times that can correct the timeline. The encounter with Shelley and Lovelady (12:35) by the first floor elevator as the girls are leaving adds additional proof.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot"
Martin Weidmann Timeline
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
But Vickie states she saw them.
Do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion?
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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #707 on: July 08, 2020, 09:42:20 AM »
Reply
Quote
Martin Weidmann Timeline
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
towards the railroad yard
Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
just left of the stairs
Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
The building is not yet sealed off.
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
(where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
officers or secret service.
Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.
-
This is interesting. It answers all of your questions. A timeline proposed by Martin Weidmann. It shows Martin Weidmann is well aware of who interacted with who, Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvary not Westbrook, and Adams and Styles encountering the Policeman at the NW corner of the TSBD and being told to return to the front of the building. Martin then estimates it takes one to two minutes for Adams and Styles to “walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension”, to return to the front of the building. When did you start claiming the girls were at the railroad yard? It is clear you did not in this timeline.
It would take them two minutes to walk a couple of hundred feet only if they were dragging a leg or crawling.
There are a number of things wrong with this timeline, but the thing Martin is most wrong about is when did the girls leave. Fortunately, Officer Harkness (12:36) and Detective Sawyer (12:37) apply the proper times that can correct the timeline. The encounter with Shelley and Lovelady (12:35) by the first floor elevator as the girls are leaving adds additional proof.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot"
Martin Weidmann Timeline
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
But Vickie states she saw them.
Do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion?
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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #707 on: July 08, 2020, 09:42:20 AM »
Reply
Quote
Martin Weidmann Timeline
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
towards the railroad yard
Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
just left of the stairs
Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
The building is not yet sealed off.
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
(where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
officers or secret service.
Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.
It's difficult to understand what you are actually trying to say in this messy post, but I'll give it a try.
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.
Yes, that's what I said in 2020 and still say today. I would just add this;
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
Dorothy Garner followed Adams and Styles out the office. After Adams and Styles had gone down, Garner stood next to the stairs and looked through the window next to it to see what was going on at the west side of the building. She should have seen and heard a person coming down from the 6th floor, but she didn't. She did however see Truly and a policeman (Baker) come up. That's why the remark in the Stroud letter (which was buried by Rankin) and Garner's comments to Barry Ernest are so important. Also, Vickie Adams is adamant that the stairs were so noisy that she would have heard anybody else coming down on the stairs, but she heard nothing!
So, although "Oswald" and the women could, in theory, have been on the stairs at the same time. Dorothy Garner makes that theory highly unlikely, if not impossible.
There are a number of things wrong with this timeline, but the thing Martin is most wrong about is when did the girls leave. Fortunately, Officer Harkness (12:36) and Detective Sawyer (12:37) apply the proper times that can correct the timeline. The encounter with Shelley and Lovelady (12:35) by the first floor elevator as the girls are leaving adds additional proof.
This is, of course, utter nosense. There is nothing that Harkness and Sawyer said that corrects the timeline in any significant way. Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at around 12:36, took 3 minutes to go up to the 4th floor (for whatever reason) and back down again.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Sawyer isn't even firm on the exact time, as he could have been back from the 4th floor at no sooner than 12:37
When he arrived back at the front entrance, other officers had already sealed off the building.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building through the front door before it was locked down. That must have happened between 12:35 and 12:37.
And there was no encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor at 12:35. There is no corroboration for it from Shelley and Lovelady and it's physically impossible for Adams and Styles to be at the bottom of the stairs on the first floor at 12:35 and be at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37!
Here's a photograph of the TSBD showing the loading dock at the back, the area west of the building and the dead end street of Elm, next to the front of the building. I have replaced the original picture I posted with one I borrowed from Marjan Rynkiewicz! I hope she doesn't mind.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43Gm9WyF/adams-styles-foster-barnett-osw-ald-shelley-lovelady-romack.jpg)
The picture provides a clear view of how Adams and Styles walked. Down the stairs of the loading dock (somewhere near where the white car is parked), over the first set of tracks, along the curve (which is roughly where I believe they were stopped by a police man and where Shelley and Lovelady were), along the railroad tracks next to the outer fence at the curved side of the annex building, turning left onto the dead end street of Elm towards the front entrance. The entire distance is clearly more than 300 feet.
It seems you keep on making vague claims but are never able to back them up with anything conclusive or translate it into a coherent scenario. You rely completely on Adams not having misremembered where she saw Shelley and Lovelady, but are utterly incapable to explain what both women did in the four minutes directly after the shots and why Garner would say that the women went down before Truly and Baker came up.
In the scenario I propose, no witness is lying. Instead only Adams is misremembering where she saw Lovelady and Shelley.
In your scenario, Adams and Garner must both be lying for no obvious reason at all. In fact, Adams must have been lying from nearly the beginning, as she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63; "She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs".
Again, I have asked you several times now to provide evidence for this claim;
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.
So, why haven't you produced it?
I went back to our discussion in July 2020 and found that I asked you the same question, although in a somewhat different way, and you were never able to come up with an answer.
It seems not much has changed in 3,5 years.
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You're working from inaccurate transcripts.
Really? And why are you so sure your transcripts are the correct ones?
They're from O'Dell's work at coming up with a complete, skip and repeat free version of the Channel 2 Audiograph recording. The WC transcripts (there's more than one per channel) aren't particularly accurate, a fact widely known by careful researchers for some time. The best channel one transcript is the one Shearer did using the Dave Dix tape. The best channel two transcript is the result of O'Dell's work.
Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.
Better check again. My quote is from a broadcast on channel 1. A few seconds earlier Harkness says on channel 2 "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm". In that broadcast he did not say; "I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." He said that on channel 1.
The channel one Harkness "transmission" isn't a separate transmission. It's a copy of the channel two transmission that's acoustically coupled over to channel one courtesy of that stuck microphone. This is also something that's been widely known for a while.
A copy of the O'Dell version of channel two can be found where here:
Harkness' transmission begins about 12:25.
Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds.
No, the transcript I am using for channel 2 is the one used by the WC. In that one Brewer's transmission begins after the dispatcher announced 12:37.
Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.
Speculation
No more so than your contention that "Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building" happening before Inspector Sawyer descended from the mountain. We don't know how long it actually took Brewer to get from the TOP to the TSBD, or exactly what route or method he used.
In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.
Just because they can't be seen in the Martin film (which I haven't checked btw) doesn't mean there were no other officers there.
The Hughes film has a sequence showing the same events, taken from a bit further back and showing more of the TSBD front. Same thing: all the cops in the scene are going in the door. Still, it doesn't show the entire TSBD south side. Harkness testified that, when he showed up at the front of the TSBD, there were only two cops there with Sawyer.
Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (not a DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.
Really. Is there a clock visible or a timestamp on those photos? In any event, it's hardly relevant to the discussion as we are talking about the front entrance where Styles re-entered the building. I couldn't care less if all the doors to the annex at the west side were still wide open. Styles wasn't there.
You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.
You either ignored or missed what Sawyer said in his testimony;
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!
This of course means that Styles was photographed next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building between 12:36 and before 12:39 (at the latest)!
MW: By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!
You misrepresented what I said. I said, "the upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43"
"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering." If you read a bit more carefully, you'll notice that Sawyer makes exactly this distinction when he explicitly separates "be sure it was covered off properly" from "posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out." See also my previous note about Harkness: there were only two cops out front when Sawyer showed up. Barnett was probably one of them, Barnett said that he positioned himself near the corner of the building to watch both the south and east sides (but nothing about sealing the building off, or locking it down. As for the other officer, it's unclear if he was really watching the building at all. Not everyone thought that the shots came from the TSBD, after all.
The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later.
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It's difficult to understand what you are actually trying to say in this messy post, but I'll give it a try.
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.
Yes, that's what I said in 2020 and still say today. I would just add this;
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
Dorothy Garner followed Adams and Styles out the office. After Adams and Styles had gone down, Garner stood next to the stairs and looked through the window next to it to see what was going on at the west side of the building. She should have seen and heard a person coming down from the 6th floor, but she didn't. She did however see Truly and a policeman (Baker) come up. That's why the remark in the Stroud letter (which was buried by Rankin) and Garner's comments to Barry Ernest are so important. Also, Vickie Adams is adamant that the stairs were so noisy that she would have heard anybody else coming down on the stairs, but she heard nothing!
So, although "Oswald" and the women could, in theory, have been on the stairs at the same time. Dorothy Garner makes that theory highly unlikely, if not impossible.
This is, of course, utter nosense. There is nothing that Harkness and Sawyer said that corrects the timeline in any significant way. Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at around 12:36, took 3 minutes to go up to the 4th floor (for whatever reason) and back down again.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Sawyer isn't even firm on the exact time, as he could have been back from the 4th floor at no sooner than 12:37
When he arrived back at the front entrance, other officers had already sealed off the building.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building through the front door before it was locked down. That must have happened between 12:35 and 12:37.
And there was no encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor at 12:35. There is no corroboration for it from Shelley and Lovelady and it's physically impossible for Adams and Styles to be at the bottom of the stairs on the first floor at 12:35 and be at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37!
Here's a photograph of the TSBD showing the loading dock at the back, the area west of the building and the dead end street of Elm, next to the front of the building. Ignore the arrows!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTbhPFxZ/Oswald-escape-rambler.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CzkBnGqs)
It provides a clear view of how Adams and Styles walked. Down the stairs of the loading dock (somewhere near where the white car is parked), over the first set of tracks, along the curve (which is roughly where I believe they were stopped by a police man and where Shelley and Lovelady were), along the curved side of the annex building, at the end on the tracks closest to the TSBD extension [where it says "Oswald leaves the TSBD" - btw where the arrow starts is the door that Shelley and Lovelady used to re-enter the building], around that extension, turning left onto the dead end street of Elm towards the front entrance.
It seems you keep on making vague claims but are never able to back them up with anything conclusive or translate it into a coherent scenario. You rely completely on Adams not having misremembered where she saw Shelley and Lovelady, but are utterly incapable to explain what both women did in the four minutes directly after the shots and why Garner would say that the women went down before Truly and Baker came up.
In the scenario I propose, no witness is lying. Instead only Adams is misremembering where she saw Lovelady and Shelley.
In your scenario, Adams and Garner must both be lying for no obvious reason at all. In fact, Adams must have been lying from nearly the beginning, as she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63; "She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs".
Again, I have asked you several times now to provide evidence for this claim;
So, why haven't you produced it?
I went back to our discussion in July 2020 and found that I asked you the same question, although in a somewhat different way, and you were never able to come up with an answer.
It seems not much has changed in 3,5 years.
Martin Weidmann---12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36
Mr. HARKNESS - "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr. BELIN - All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr. BELIN - In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Asked for a squad.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
12:37 INSP Sawyer locks down the front door at 12:37
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
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12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35
Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit March 19, 1964:
“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”
This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.
Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.
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They're from O'Dell's work at coming up with a complete, skip and repeat free version of the Channel 2 Audiograph recording. The WC transcripts (there's more than one per channel) aren't particularly accurate, a fact widely known by careful researchers for some time. The best channel one transcript is the one Shearer did using the Dave Dix tape. The best channel two transcript is the result of O'Dell's work.
The channel one Harkness "transmission" isn't a separate transmission. It's a copy of the channel two transmission that's acoustically coupled over to channel one courtesy of that stuck microphone. This is also something that's been widely known for a while.
A copy of the O'Dell version of channel two can be found where here:
Harkness' transmission begins about 12:25.
Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
No more so than your contention that "Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building" happening before Inspector Sawyer descended from the mountain. We don't know how long it actually took Brewer to get from the TOP to the TSBD, or exactly what route or method he used.
The Hughes film has a sequence showing the same events, taken from a bit further back and showing more of the TSBD front. Same thing: all the cops in the scene are going in the door. Still, it doesn't show the entire TSBD south side. Harkness testified that, when he showed up at the front of the TSBD, there were only two cops there with Sawyer.
You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.
MW: By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!
You misrepresented what I said. I said, "the upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43"
"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering." If you read a bit more carefully, you'll notice that Sawyer makes exactly this distinction when he explicitly separates "be sure it was covered off properly" from "posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out." See also my previous note about Harkness: there were only two cops out front when Sawyer showed up. Barnett was probably one of them, Barnett said that he positioned himself near the corner of the building to watch both the south and east sides (but nothing about sealing the building off, or locking it down. As for the other officer, it's unclear if he was really watching the building at all. Not everyone thought that the shots came from the TSBD, after all.
The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later.
That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.
Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!
You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.
Not that it really matters much, as Styles re-entered the building through the front entrance, but why don't you just show the photo?
"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering."
That's just your opinion. You don't know if Sawyer shared that opinion. I refer to what I said about Sawyer in my previous post;
Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at around 12:36, took 3 minutes to go up to the 4th floor (for whatever reason) and back down again.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Sawyer isn't even firm on the exact time, as he could have been back from the 4th floor at no sooner than 12:37
When he arrived back at the front entrance, other officers had already sealed off the building.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.
When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Obviously, the mere fact that Sawyer thought those instructions had not yet been given, doesn't mean that that was automatically correct.
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Martin Weidmann---12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36
Mr. HARKNESS - "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr. BELIN - All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr. BELIN - In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Asked for a squad.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
12:37 INSP Sawyer locks down the front door at 12:37
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
-----------------------------------------------------------
12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35
Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit March 19, 1964:
“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”
This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.
Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.
12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36
When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.
As I have already stated in a previous post, Lovelady testified there were policemen running to the area west of the TSBD when he and Shelley were going there. That was well before the building was sealed off.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
I guess you just ignored that.
12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35
Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit March 19, 1964:
“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”
This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.
Actually, it does no such thing. It just shows that Lovelady estimated that he and Shelley stayed in the area west of the building for approximately five minutes. There is no mention of Vickie Adams. That's all in your mind.
Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.
Well, I've asked you a number of times now for evidence to back up this claim;
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.
and you still haven't provided it.... So, I'll guess, if I answer it for myself, the answer must be that you are just blowing smoke and haven't got a shred of evidence to prove anything.
In other words, nothing has changed in 3,5 years. But no worries, that's common for fanatical zealots who try to defend the indefensible.
-
12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36
When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.
As I have already stated in a previous post, Lovelady testified there were policemen running to the area west of the TSBD when he and Shelley were going there. That was well before the building was sealed off.
I guess you just ignored that.
12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35
Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit March 19, 1964:
“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”
This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.
Actually, it does no such thing. It just shows that Lovelady estimated that he and Shelley stayed in the area west of the building for approximately five minutes. There is no mention of Vickie Adams. That's all in your mind.
Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.
Well, I've asked you a number of times now for evidence to back up this claim;
and you still haven't provided it.... So, I'll guess, if I answer it for myself, the answer must be that you are just blowing smoke and haven't got a shred of evidence to prove anything.
In other words, nothing has changed in 3,5 years. But no worries, that's common for fanatical zealots who try to defend the indefensible.
THEN:2020
Martin Weidmann Timeline----12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension, towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
NOW: 2024
MW-- “BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building, she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.”
MW--"The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;”
MW--“When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.
HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building? Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.” Which Sgt Harkness stated took place at 12:36. The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?
Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.
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THEN:2020
Martin Weidmann Timeline----12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension, towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
NOW: 2024
MW-- “BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building, she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.”
MW--"The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;”
MW--“When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.
HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building? Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.” Which Sgt Harkness stated took place at 12:36. The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?
Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.
I'm beginning to wonder if you live in your own fantasy world.
HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building? Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.”
Once again you misrepresent what I said. I never said anything about a police officer "just wandering around" or "passing the time of day with a friendly conversation". You seem to be under the flawed impression that every single police officer that ran towards the west area of the TSBD must have been part of the officers who were tasked with sealing off the building.
And, of course, you ignore that fact that Lovelady and Shelley were walking/running to that same area well before Sawyer arrived. Lovelady testified that he saw policemen running out that way.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
and Shelley testified that he "watched them to searching cars down there in the parking lots"
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
This may be over your head, but the combined testimony of Lovelady and Shelley shows there were officers in the parking lot searching cars before Swayer had even arrived. You may think otherwise, but it's not unsual for police officer to tell people to return where they came from to prevent a potential crime scene from being contaminated.
The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?
Yes, we don't know who else he told, but that doesn't really matter. We know that he told Adams and Styles and that's enough.
Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.
It's clear by now that you don't like my time line, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. If I made a mistake you are more than welcome to tell me and provide at least a shred of evidence for it, instead of all sorts of assumptions.
In other words, if you can show that my time line doesn't work or is wrong, I'll be more than happy to be persuaded by your arguments. As it stands, however, you are not presenting much of an argument. In fact, all your previous comments about the time line seem now to have been reduced to a sort of unsupported claim that the officer who told Adams and Styles to return to the building was involved in the sealing of the evidence.
You could for instance start by presenting the evidence to back up this claim, as I have asked you to do multiple times;
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.
your obvious refusal to provide that evidence doesn't do your credibility any good.
-
The WC ignored Adam's because she didn't make the slightest bit of sense.
1. The passenger elevator was by far the closest way to the 1st floor, but instead Adam's claims she first went to the back of the building to ride on a freight elevator? As if!
2. Garner didn't know where the girls went but for some reason Garner didn't explore the Passenger elevator first but went straight to the freight elevator and/or the rear stairs. As if!
3. Styles later recalled that they first went to the Passenger elevator which under the circumstances is the best answer and perfectly logical.
4. Upon reentry Adams went immediately to the passenger elevator to reach the 4th floor, she doesn't say she immediately went to the back of the building to catch the freight elevator.
5. Adams said in multiple interviews that she saw Lovelady and Shelley when she reached the 1st floor, impossible if she left immediately.
6. After hours of interrogation, Oswald slipped up and told Harry Holmes, "when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs.""
In Conclusion, Oswald had PLENTY of time to sneak down the stairs.
Case Closed!
JohnM
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The WC ignored Adam's because she didn't make the slightest bit of sense.
1. The passenger elevator was by far the closest way to the 1st floor, but instead Adam's claims she first went to the back of the building to ride on a freight elevator? As if!
2. Garner didn't know where the girls went but for some reason Garner didn't explore the Passenger elevator first but went straight to the freight elevator and/or the rear stairs. As if!
3. Styles later recalled that they first went to the Passenger elevator which under the circumstances is the best answer and perfectly logical.
4. Upon reentry Adams said she immediately went to the passenger elevator to reach the 4th floor, she doesn't say she immediately went to the back of the building to catch the freight elevator.
5. Adams said in multiple interviews that she saw Lovelady and Shelley when she reached the 1st floor, impossible if she left immediately.
6. After hours of interrogation, Oswald slipped up and told Harry Holmes, "when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs.""
In Conclusion, Oswald had PLENTY of time to sneak down the stairs.
Case Closed!
JohnM
First of all, let me just ask who you are talking to?
The WC ignored Adam's because she didn't make the slightest bit of sense.
In your opinion, right? Too bad that we have made sense of it after all. I'm sorry you don't like that.
1. The passenger elevator was by far the closest way to the 1st floor, but instead Adam's claims she first went to the back of the building to ride on a freight elevator? As if!
What you believe Adams should have done is superseded by what Adams said she actually did. It is of no importance or significance that you don't want to accept it.
2. Garner didn't know where the girls went but for some reason Garner didn't explore the Passenger elevator first but went straight to the freight elevator and/or the rear stairs. As if!
Garner knew exactly where the girls went, when she heard them on the stairs after following them to the storage area. Again, it is of no importance or significance that you don't want to accept it.
3. Styles later recalled that they first went to the Passenger elevator which under the circumstances is the best answer and perfectly logical.
Yeah right... Styles remembered every detail of what happened some 48 years after the event, when prior to that she said that she could be wrong and Adams' was probably right.
4. Upon reentry Adams said she immediately went to the passenger elevator to reach the 4th floor, she doesn't say she immediately went to the back of the building to catch the freight elevator.
No she told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she left the window immediately to go to the stairs and when she did that she heard the elevators move.
Btw, "immediately" is that after 15 seconds or 30 seconds or whatever is in your little dictionary? :D :D :D :D :D
5. Adams said in multiple interviews that she saw Lovelady and Shelley when she reached the 1st floor, impossible if she left immediately.
She only started saying that after Jim Leavelle visisted her at her home, in February 1964, and said all her previous statements had been lost (which was a lie).
The testimony of Shelley and Lovelady clearly shows that the two men did not re-enter the TSBD, through a door in the annex building, at least 5 minutes after the shots.
If Adams saw them on the first floor (which she didn't - she saw them near the railway tracks west of the building) where were Adams and Styles for at least four minutes after the shots? Did they drink a coffee, perhaps?
6. After hours of interrogation, Oswald slipped up and told Harry Holmes, "when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs.""
Wow, that's according to Harry Holmes, right?
In Conclusion, Oswald had PLENTY of time to sneak down the stairs.
Case Closed!
Superficial "conclusion" based on silly one liners that misrepresent the evidence and ignore the totality of the actual available evidence.
Belin wasn't interested in doing a time trial with Victoria Adams. Why would a prosecutor (which is what Belin was) reject additional evidence? Only for one reason; he understood that would blow his entire case out of the water.
There is not a shred of evidence to show that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired or that he came down the stairs, unseen by at least 12 people on the 5th and 4th floor, within 75 seconds after the last shot.
I asked Richard Smith for months to provide the evidence that I was wrong and he couldn't. The best he could do was;
"The evidence that Oswald came down the stairs after the last shot is.... that it happened - "Richard Smith" :D :D :D :D
Care to throw some more one liners at me and follow Richard into the land of delusion?
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No she told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she left the window immediately to go to the stairs and when she did that she heard the elevators move.
Btw, "immediately" is that after 15 seconds or 30 seconds or whatever is in your little dictionary? :D :D :D :D :D
Thanks for highlighting another massive inconsistency of Adam's revolving door of made up stories. Thumb1:
she told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she left the window immediately
VS.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Btw every time you open your mouth you dig a deeper and deeper hole, better luck next time! ;D
JohnM
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4. Upon reentry Adams said she immediately went to the passenger elevator to reach the 4th floor, she doesn't say she immediately went to the back of the building to catch the freight elevator.
No she told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she left the window immediately to go to the stairs and when she did that she heard the elevators move.
Huh? You do know what reentry means, right? And you do realize that if Adams was already on the 4th floor she wouldn't be trying to reach the 4th floor?
Btw you are obviously replying to posts that are clearly above your level of comprehension. Maybe slow down and take a break because all this conspiracy nonsense is rotting your brain.
JohnM
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Thanks for highlighting another massive inconsistency of Adam's revolving door of made up stories. Thumb1:
she told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she left the window immediately
VS.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Btw every time you open your mouth you dig a deeper and deeper hole, better luck next time! ;D
JohnM
That's the best you've got?
Do you really not understand that an estimated 15 to 30 seconds is considered to be immediately by normal, reasonable people, in the real world? Do you really think Adams was using the dictionary you have used previously or that people get everything they say 100% right? Really?
And talk about putting your foot in it. Your argument has been that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady 5 minutes after the last shot (which is a questionable and likely low estimate at best) at the bottom of the stairs.
Adams and Styles needed only less than one minute to go down the stairs from the 4th to the 1st floor, so where were they during the other 4 minutes or so? Drinking coffee with Dorothy Garner perhaps?
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Huh? You do know what reentry means, right? And you do realize that if Adams was already on the 4th floor she wouldn't be trying to reach the 4th floor?
Btw you are obviously replying to posts that are clearly above your level of comprehension. Maybe slow down and take a break because all this conspiracy nonsense is rotting your brain.
JohnM
And he huffed and puffed..... :D :D :D
I was responding to your silly comment;
she doesn't say she immediately went to the back of the building to catch the freight elevator.
I'm sorry if that confused you.
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5. Adams said in multiple interviews that she saw Lovelady and Shelley when she reached the 1st floor, impossible if she left immediately.
She only started saying that after Jim Leavelle visisted her at her home, in February 1964,...
Excellent, further proof that Adams was unreliable and/or easily led.
And this wishy-washy eyewitness is the very core for your theory, hilarious!
JohnM
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Excellent, further proof that Adams was unreliable and/or easily led.
And this wishy-washy eyewitness is the very core for your theory, hilarious!
JohnM
Talk about wishy-washy witnesses;
How about Brennan, Bledsoe, Markham and Roberts?
Your desperation to color Adams as a liar is pathetic.
And no, you may not understand this, but Adams, by herself, is not at the core of my theory. The core of my theory is the actual evidence provided by Adams, Garner, Lovelady, Shelley, Harkness and Sawyer. But you are not very big on connecting the dots, are you now?
If Adams lied, so did Garner... and with that we get back on the LN bandwagon of accusing witnesses of lying for no reason and with nothing to gain.
Just like Frazier, Adams wasn't lying. She maintained her story until her death and Frazier is still saying the same things as he did on day one. It's only fanatical zealots like you who desperately try to discredit them with no evidence whatsoever.
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If Adams lied, so did Garner...
Garner is your eyewitness, really? Garner didn't see who went down the stairs and only heard footsteps which could have been anybody, even Oswald! Thumb1:
JohnM
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Garner is your eyewitness, really? Garner didn't see who went down the stairs and only heard footsteps which could have been anybody, even Oswald! Thumb1:
JohnM
If Garner, as you so desperately claim, heard Oswald on the stairs, then where did Adams and Styles go? Are you saying that Oswald went down the stairs before or after Adams and Styles? I really wish you would make up your mind about what you are saying, because you are all over the place. Garner told Barry Ernest that she followed to girls out to the storage area. How could that be, if - as you claimed - the girls stayed on the 4th floor for some 4 minutes. Did Garner go to the storage area before Adams and Styles did?
So, no, it couldn't have been Oswald, because Adams and Styles went down the stairs immediately and Oswald would have been behind them. Adams said she heard nobody else on the noisy stairs and Garner said she did not see anybody on the stairs after the girls went down and before Truly and Baker went up.
Care to try again... I'm beginning to like this game.
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Garner told Barry Ernest that she followed to girls out to the storage area.
Wow! Garner didn't see them leave and didn't see them go down the stairs but she somehow knew she could hear their footsteps, did she have crystal balls??
Keep em coming Martin because I haven't laughed this hard for ages!
(https://astronlogia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Crystal-Gazing.jpg)
Btw when will you finally explain how Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor because she was telling the same story on tape years later? Hahahaha!
JohnM
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Wow! Garner didn't see them leave and didn't see them go down the stairs but she somehow knew she could hear their footsteps, did she have crystal balls??
Keep em coming Martin because I haven't laughed this hard for ages!
(https://astronlogia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Crystal-Gazing.jpg)
Btw when will you finally explain how Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor because she was telling the same story on tape years later? Hahahaha!
JohnM
Btw when will you finally explain how Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor because she was telling the same story on tape years later? Hahahaha!
Already have and people far more serious than you have understood it. It's not my problem that you don't understand what I have written.
Want to impress me? Show me actual evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired and went down the stairs within 75 seconds after the last shot. Can you do that?
-
Btw when will you finally explain how Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor because she was telling the same story on tape years later? Hahahaha!
Already have and people far more serious than you have understood it. It's not my problem that you don't understand what I have written.
Want to impress me? Show me actual evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired and went down the stairs within 75 seconds after the last shot. Can you do that?
Already have and people far more serious than you have understood it.
I'm sure you said in 1 of your posts that your eyewitness was confused! -snigger-
It's not my problem that you don't understand what I have written.
You obviously don't understand the drastic implications and the complete destruction of your eyewitness, of what you have written.
Want to impress me?
No.
JohnM
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I'm sure you said in 1 of your posts that your eyewitness was confused! -snigger-
You obviously don't understand the drastic implications and the complete destruction of your eyewitness, of what you have written.
No.
JohnM
So, you can't tell me where Adams and Styles were for at least 4 minutes after the shots? Got it!
And you don't want or can't produce the actual evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired and went down the stairs within 75 seconds after the last shot. Wow, how would that play in out in court?
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And you don't want or can't produce the actual evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired and went down the stairs within 75 seconds after the last shot. Wow, how would that play out in court?
Martin, like all Internet conspiracy theorists, is not very good at simple math.....especially when it comes to adding things up concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and his movements and actions on November 22, 1963.
Martin, of course, could perform the 2nd-grade math if he really wanted to. But he doesn't want to. So, he'll just continue to pretend that Oswald's movements are impossible to figure out from the known evidence.
Such is the way with Internet conspiracy theorists/fantasists.
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Martin, like all Internet conspiracy theorists, is not very good at simple math.....especially when it comes to adding things up concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and his movements and actions on November 22, 1963.
Thank you for your opinion. Too bad that your statements are even less than superficial. I'll be happy to discuss the time line with you, but I seriously doubt you would be interested in that.
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I'll be happy to discuss the time line with you, but I seriously doubt you would be interested in that.
All kinds of "Timelines" discussed here:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-2.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1308.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-973.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/tippit-timelines.html
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All kinds of "Timelines" discussed here:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-2.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1308.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-973.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/tippit-timelines.html
Sorry. David. I'm not interested in biased propaganda. If you actually want to discuss the time lines and the problems with them, I'll be more than willing to do so.
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I'm beginning to wonder if you live in your own fantasy world.
HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building? Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.”
Once again you misrepresent what I said. I never said anything about a police officer "just wandering around" or "passing the time of day with a friendly conversation". You seem to be under the flawed impression that every single police officer that ran towards the west area of the TSBD must have been part of the officers who were tasked with sealing off the building.
And, of course, you ignore that fact that Lovelady and Shelley were walking/running to that same area well before Sawyer arrived. Lovelady testified that he saw policemen running out that way.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
and Shelley testified that he "watched them to searching cars down there in the parking lots"
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
This may be over your head, but the combined testimony of Lovelady and Shelley shows there were officers in the parking lot searching cars before Swayer had even arrived. You may think otherwise, but it's not unsual for police officer to tell people to return where they came from to prevent a potential crime scene from being contaminated.
The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?
Yes, we don't know who else he told, but that doesn't really matter. We know that he told Adams and Styles and that's enough.
Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.
It's clear by now that you don't like my time line, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. If I made a mistake you are more than welcome to tell me and provide at least a shred of evidence for it, instead of all sorts of assumptions.
In other words, if you can show that my time line doesn't work or is wrong, I'll be more than happy to be persuaded by your arguments. As it stands, however, you are not presenting much of an argument. In fact, all your previous comments about the time line seem now to have been reduced to a sort of unsupported claim that the officer who told Adams and Styles to return to the building was involved in the sealing of the evidence.
You could for instance start by presenting the evidence to back up this claim, as I have asked you to do multiple times;
your obvious refusal to provide that evidence doesn't do your credibility any good.
MW--“Once again you misrepresent what I said. I never said anything about a police officer "just wandering around" or "passing the time of day with a friendly conversation". You seem to be under the flawed impression that every single police officer that ran towards the west area of the TSBD must have been part of the officers who were tasked with sealing off the building”
That is the impression you give. If he suspected them of something, detain them. Sealing of the building is not letting them leave which is what Harkness stated he did.
MW--“You may think otherwise, but it's not unsual for police officer to tell people to return where they came from to prevent a potential crime scene from being contaminated.”
What crime scene was in the parking lot? They returned by walking along the RR Tracks along side the building.
MW--“In other words, if you can show that my time line doesn't work or is wrong, I'll be more than happy to be persuaded by your arguments.”
You have been repeatedly shown what a mess your timeline is. You just don’t want to admit it. It all begins with you understand Adams and Styles were told to go back inside. Which is something they continually admitted too. The police put a timestamp on that event(12:36) along with the one at the front door(12:37). Shelley and Lovelady place a time stamp on when they were at the elevator(12:35). It all fits to the narrative of what Adams and Styles claimed was their travels. Additionally, officer Barnett did not see anyone emerge from the back of the building during the three minutes he stood on Houston Street.
Do you ever wonder why they did not talk to Styles? What would be the point they already had the answer after taking statements from Adams, Harkness, Sawyer, and Lovelady and Shelley.
Garner provided no valuable information. She was not even at the window when the shots were fired. She went later and then her statement was all confused.
Instead of focusing on what is important your biggest concern seems to be some silly question you have. Maybe just dodging the real issue? They did not leave for 4 or 5 minutes. There is no other answer.
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MW--“Once again you misrepresent what I said. I never said anything about a police officer "just wandering around" or "passing the time of day with a friendly conversation". You seem to be under the flawed impression that every single police officer that ran towards the west area of the TSBD must have been part of the officers who were tasked with sealing off the building”
That is the impression you give. If he suspected them of something, detain them. Sealing of the building is not letting them leave which is what Harkness stated he did.
If that's your impression, then you are cleary not paying attention. I'm not sure where you get the "detain them" stuff from. Nor do I understand why you are stuck on what Harkness said. He didn't arrive at the back of the TSBD until after Adams and Styles were long gone.
MW--“You may think otherwise, but it's not unsual for police officer to tell people to return where they came from to prevent a potential crime scene from being contaminated.”
What crime scene was in the parking lot? They returned by walking along the RR Tracks along side the building.
Did you miss the word "potential"? At the time the officers were searching the cars, just minutes after the shooting they had no idea where a crime scene was
MW--“In other words, if you can show that my time line doesn't work or is wrong, I'll be more than happy to be persuaded by your arguments.”
You have been repeatedly shown what a mess your timeline is. You just don’t want to admit it. It all begins with you understand Adams and Styles were told to go back inside. Which is something they continually admitted too. The police put a timestamp on that event(12:36) along with the one at the front door(12:37). Shelley and Lovelady place a time stamp on when they were at the elevator(12:35). It all fits to the narrative of what Adams and Styles claimed was their travels. Additionally, officer Barnett did not see anyone emerge from the back of the building during the three minutes he stood on Houston Street.
So much confusion. I have been saying all along that Adams and Styles were told by a police officer to go back inside. Your "timestamp on that event" simply doesn't exist. You refer to a transmission by Harkness, but he wasn't the officer that told Adams and Styles to go back in.
Do you ever wonder why they did not talk to Styles? What would be the point they already had the answer after taking statements from Adams, Harkness, Sawyer, and Lovelady and Shelley.
Yes, I do understand why they didn't talk to Styles. They didn't really want to talk to Adams either, but in Styles' case, the last thing they needed was corroboration of what Adams had said. They simply did not want to take that risk. It's the same game they played with the FBI agents who were present at autopsy. After Specter talked to the men and found out what they had to say, they were never called to testify. In his deposition, Tomlinson was asked over and over again about the location of the bullet on the stretcher but he was never shown the actual bullet. But back to Adams; one of the more telling exchanges was this;
Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.
"I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet" implies he would come back to that, but he never did. And that's (IMO) because he didn't want to know and didn't want it on the record.
Garner provided no valuable information. She was not even at the window when the shots were fired. She went later and then her statement was all confused.
This only shows just how limited your knowledge of the evidence in this case is. The one that is confused, and most likely on purpose, is you.
Instead of focusing on what is important your biggest concern seems to be some silly question you have. Maybe just dodging the real issue?
Asking you for evidence to support a bold and absolutely untrue claim you made is somehow a "silly question". If anybody is dodging the real issue, it's you.
They did not leave for 4 or 5 minutes. There is no other answer.
Too bad that I already have given you another answer. You just don't like it. Your entire fairytale comes down to this; Adams and Styles stayed at the window for 4 minutes (for which there is no evidence as it didn't happen), they then ran down the stairs to the first floor, getting them there at around 1:35, where Adams allegedly saw Shelley and Lovelady (who in fact by their own statement did not enter the annex building until at least 5 minutes after the shots and thus couldn't have been at the bottom of the stairs) and then Harkness told them, at 1:36, to re-enter the building, which they didn't do, at least not through the backdoor. Instead they ran around three sides of the building in less than a minute in order for Styles to be able to re-enter the building at the front entrance.
It's a bogus scenario that you desperately cling to, to keep the possibility alive that Oswald could have come down the stairs unseen after all. The holes in your story and the misrepresentations of the evidence are staggering and of course total BS:
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Martin, like all Internet conspiracy theorists, is not very good at simple math.....especially when it comes to adding things up concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and his movements and actions on November 22, 1963.
Martin, of course, could perform the 2nd-grade math if he really wanted to. But he doesn't want to. So, he'll just continue to pretend that Oswald's movements are impossible to figure out from the known evidence.
Such is the way with Internet conspiracy theorists/fantasists.
So, instead of taking my up on my offer to discuss the time line (which I already expected) you edit a previous post to include a childish ad hom attack on me. How pathetic, but also how absolutely typical of the LNs.
It's becoming more and more clear that beyond a massive amount of dubious rhetoric, filled with half-truths and complete misrepresentations of the evidence, the LNs are utterly incapable to actually argue their case in an honest conversation. All guys like you do, on a daily basis, is telling the same lies and misrepresentations hoping that some day they will actually become true.
You can't even get it straight that I am not a conspiracy theorist. I have never had and never will put forward a conspiracy theory, because that's not where my interests lie. My only purpose is to find out if the case against Oswald can indeed withstand scrutiny and obviously if it can't than the only alternative is a conspiracy of some kind, but I'll gladly leave that to others.
Btw, I just had a quick look at part one of Oswald's time line on your site, and found it filled with assumptions and speculation. Time after time you say things like "I believe", "It's possible", "I assume" and you make claims for which there is not a shred of evidence. The whole saga of Oswald hiding in the snipers nest when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor is pure fiction. The truth is that you can't place Oswald on the 6th floor anywhere after a couple of minutes past 12 noon. The story about Oswald going down the stairs is also a mere assumption for which there is no evidence. Not only that but your time line simply ignores completely the testimony of Victoria Adams and the information provided by Dorothy Garner. The entire piece is nothing more than blatant propaganda with utter disregard for the truth and the actual available evidence. In other words, it's exactly what I expected from you.
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So, instead of taking my up on my offer to discuss the time line (which I already expected) you edit a previous post to include a childish ad hom attack on me. How pathetic, but also how absolutely typical of the LNs.
It's becoming more and more clear they beyond a massive amount of dubious rhetoric, filled with half-truths and complete misrepresentations of the evidence, the LNs are utterly incapable to actually argue their case in an honest conversation. All guys like you do, on a daily basis, is telling the same lies and misrepresentations hoping that some day they will actually become true.
You can't even get it straight that I am not a conspiracy theorist. I have never had and never will put forward a conspiracy theory, because that's not where my interests lie. My only purpose is to find out if the case against Oswald can indeed withstand scrutiny and obviously if it can't than the only alternative is a conspiracy of some kind, but I'll gladly leave that to others.
Btw, I just had a quick look at part one of Oswald's time line on your sight, and found it filled with assumptions and speculation. Time after time you say things like "I believe", "It's possible", "I assume" and you make claims for which there is not a shred of evidence. The whole saga of Oswald hiding in the snipers nest when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor is pure fiction. The truth is that you can't place Oswald on the 6th floor anywhere after a couple of minutes past 12 noon. The story about Oswald going down the stairs is also a mere assumption for which there is no evidence. Not only that but your time line simply ignores completely the testimony of Victoria Adams and the information provided by Dorothy Garner. The entire piece is nothing more than blatant propaganda with utter disregard for the truth and the actual available evidence. In other words, it's exactly what I expected from you.
Thumb1:
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All guys like you do, on a daily basis, is [tell] the same lies and misrepresentations hoping that some day they will actually become true.
I've never told any "lies" about the JFK case. (And an "opinion" that doesn't agree with your conspiracy-slanted version of events is not a "lie". I hope you'll keep that fact in mind if you ever decide to call me a liar again in the future.)
You can't even get it straight that I am not a conspiracy theorist.
Yeah, sure, Martin. Whatever you say. ::)
Btw, I just had a quick look at part one of Oswald's time line on your site, and found it filled with assumptions and speculation. Time after time you say things like "I believe", "It's possible", "I assume" and you make claims for which there is not a shred of evidence.
Well, since there was absolutely nobody else up there on the 6th floor when Oswald was doing the things that I think he did just before 12:30 on 11/22/63, then OF COURSE I've used terms like "I believe" and "It's possible" on my Timeline Page (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html). Isn't that better than saying Oswald "definitely did this" or "positively did that at exactly this time"?
Since there are no 6th-Floor witnesses to anything the assassin did, all I can possibly do is "assume" the things that "I believe" are most certainly "possible" regarding Oswald's exact actions and movements on the sixth floor on 11/22. It's either engaging in some guesswork or just forget about making up a "Timeline" at all. I chose the former option.
Obligatory ----> Duh!!
The whole saga of Oswald hiding in the snipers nest when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor is pure fiction.
No, it's a reasonable inference (i.e., a good guess) as to where Oswald was located during the few minutes when Bonnie Ray was up there eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich lunch.
The truth is that you can't place Oswald on the 6th floor anywhere after a couple of minutes past 12 noon.
Wrong. I can place him in the Sniper's Nest shooting at JFK at exactly 12:30 --- via the witness all CTers love to hate, Howard L. Brennan.
But, like it or not, Brennan (in front of the WC) did positively I.D. Oswald as the assassin.
Plus: Via another "reasonable inference", I can place Oswald on the west side of the sixth floor, holding his Carcano rifle (another wholly "reasonable inference" there), at approximately 12:15 PM. Those reasonable inferences (guesses) come, of course, via the testimony of Arnold Rowland.
The story about Oswald going down the stairs is also a mere assumption for which there is no evidence.
Once again, it's a "reasonable inference" based on the evidence AS A WHOLE, which is telling any reasonable and sensible person looking at that totality of evidence that Lee Oswald (and his rifle) were, indeed, on the sixth floor shooting at the President at exactly 12:30 PM.
And since we have irrefutable proof (via Marrion Baker and Roy Truly) that Mr. Oswald was positively in the second-floor lunchroom (near the back stairway) within just two minutes or so after the President was shot by Oswald and his Carcano, then the reasonable inference to reach here is:
Lee Oswald must have utilized that back staircase between 12:30 PM and 12:32 PM CST on November 22nd. (And this inference/conclusion can easily still be reached regardless of the observations of Dorothy Garner, Victoria Adams, or anyone else. With the simple answer to the Garner/Adams/Styles controversy being: Adams and Styles beat everybody else to the stairs that day.)
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I've never told any "lies" about the JFK case. (And an "opinion" that doesn't agree with your conspiracy-slanted version of events is not a "lie". I hope you'll keep that fact in mind if you ever decide to call me a liar again in the future.)
Yeah, sure, Martin. Whatever you say. ::)
Well, since there was absolutely nobody else up there on the 6th floor when Oswald was doing the things that I think he did just before 12:30 on 11/22/63, then OF COURSE I've used terms like "I believe" and "It's possible" on my Timeline Page (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html). Isn't that better than saying Oswald "definitely did this" or "positively did that at exactly this time"?
Since there are no 6th-Floor witnesses to anything the assassin did, all I can possibly do is "assume" the things that "I believe" are most certainly "possible" regarding Oswald's exact actions and movements on the sixth floor on 11/22. It's either engaging in some guesswork or just forget about making up a "Timeline" at all. I chose the former option.
Obligatory ----> Duh!!
No, it's a reasonable inference (i.e., a good guess) as to where Oswald was located during the few minutes when Bonnie Ray was up there eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich lunch.
Wrong. I can place him in the Sniper's Nest shooting at JFK at exactly 12:30 --- via the witness all CTers love to hate, Howard L. Brennan.
But, like it or not, Brennan (in front of the WC) did positively I.D. Oswald as the assassin.
Plus: Via another "reasonable inference", I can place Oswald on the west side of the sixth floor, holding his Carcano rifle (another wholly "reasonable inference" there), at approximately 12:15 PM. Those reasonable inferences (guesses) come, of course, via the testimony of Arnold Rowland.
Once again, it's a "reasonable inference" based on the evidence AS A WHOLE, which is telling any reasonable and sensible person looking at that totality of evidence that Lee Oswald (and his rifle) were, indeed, on the sixth floor shooting at the President at exactly 12:30 PM.
And since we have irrefutable proof (via Marrion Baker and Roy Truly) that Mr. Oswald was positively in the second-floor lunchroom (near the back stairway) within just two minutes or so after the President was shot by Oswald and his Carcano, then the reasonable inference to reach here is:
Lee Oswald must have utilized that back staircase between 12:30 PM and 12:32 PM CST on November 22nd. (And this inference/conclusion can easily still be reached regardless of the observations of Dorothy Garner, Victoria Adams, or anyone else. With the simple answer to the Garner/Adams/Styles controversy being: Adams and Styles beat everybody else to the stairs that day.)
I've never told any "lies" about the JFK case. (And an "opinion" that doesn't agree with your conspiracy-slanted version of events is not a "lie". I hope you'll keep that fact in mind if you ever decide to call me a liar again in the future.)
I apologize, David. I am sure you haven't told a lie on purpose. Providing an opinion based on flawed evidence and conclusions isn't a lie when you don't (want to) understand that it isn't true.
Yeah, sure, Martin. Whatever you say. ::)
So, now you are calling me a liar?
Well, since there was absolutely nobody else up there on the 6th floor when Oswald was doing the things that I think he did just before 12:30 on 11/22/63, then OF COURSE I've used terms like "I believe" and "It's possible" on my Timeline Page (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html). Isn't that better than saying Oswald "definitely did this" or "positively did that at exactly this time"?
Since there are no 6th-Floor witnesses to anything the assassin did, all I can possibly do is "assume" the things that "I believe" are most certainly "possible" regarding Oswald's exact actions and movements on the sixth floor on 11/22. It's either engaging in some guesswork or just forget about making up a "Timeline" at all. I chose the former option.
Obligatory ----> Duh!!
The key element here is that you think what Oswald was doing. Whatever you think, isn't evidence. If you had real evidence you would be saying Oswald "definitely did this" or "positively did that at exactly this time". So, the fact that you don't do that means that you haven't got credible evidence for what you think
But thank you for admitting that your timeline is based on assumptions.
No, it's a reasonable inference (i.e., a good guess) as to where Oswald was located during the few minutes when Bonnie Ray was up there eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich lunch.
How can it be a reasonable inference when your timeline is based on assumptions?
Wrong. I can place him in the Sniper's Nest shooting at JFK at exactly 12:30 --- via the witness all CTers love to hate, Howard L. Brennan.
But, like it or not, Brennan (in front of the WC) did positively I.D. Oswald as the assassin.
You mean the guy who lied about where he was sitting and looking when the shots were fired. Who gave a description of the killer that most certainly didn't fit Oswald and who failed to identify Oswald in the line up, only to change his mind after some pressure had been applied to him. The guy who then wrote a book in which he told a different story again... That guy? Sorry, David, but Brennan has no credibility at all. But I can understand why you, in desperation, would go with his statements nevertheless.
Plus: Via another "reasonable inference", I can place Oswald on the west side of the sixth floor, holding his Carcano rifle (another wholly "reasonable inference" there), at approximately 12:15 PM. Those reasonable inferences (guesses) come, of course, via the testimony of Arnold Rowland.
Rowald never identified Oswald. All he saw was a man with a rifle. Calling an inference "reasonable" just because it is useful, doesn't mean it is reasonable at all.
Once again, it's a "reasonable inference" based on the evidence AS A WHOLE, which is telling any reasonable and sensible person looking at that totality of evidence that Lee Oswald (and his rifle) were, indeed, on the sixth floor shooting at the President at exactly 12:30 PM.
So, now you've got a "reasonable inference" based on another "reasonable inference"? What I am trying to figure out is what you mean exactly with "totality of evidence" when you haven't presented a shred of actual evidence at all.
And since we have irrefutable proof (via Marrion Baker and Roy Truly) that Mr. Oswald was positively in the second-floor lunchroom (near the back stairway) within just two minutes or so after the President was shot by Oswald and his Carcano, then the reasonable inference to reach here is:
Lee Oswald must have utilized that back staircase between 12:30 PM and 12:32 PM CST on November 22nd.
Or, alternatively the conclusion is that Oswald never came down the stairs at all and was on the 2nd floor all along, getting a drink.
(And this inference/conclusion can easily still be reached regardless of the observations of Dorothy Garner, Victoria Adams, or anyone else. With the simple answer to the Garner/Adams/Styles controversy being: Adams and Styles beat everybody else to the stairs that day.)
Another inference? Really?
It's more than likely that Adams and Styles did indeed go down the stairs before anybody coming from the 6th floor could have done so. The problem is that a time trial has the shooter arriving at the stairs on the the 6th floor at around 30 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles started going the stairs at roughly the same time and they didn't hear anybody else coming down behind them. The biggest problem is Dorothy Garner, who told Barry Ernest that she heard the girls going down the stair before Truly and Baker came up. IMO there is no way that Garner would not have seen Oswald or anybody else coming down from the 6th floor. I seriously doubt, all your "reasonable inferences" aside that in fact nobody came down the stairs within 90 seconds after the shots.
But let me ask you this; when you say that Adams and Styles beat everybody else to the stairs, meaning they were ahead of the killer, you must agree that Adams and Styles immediately left the 4th floor window after the last shot. Right? That means that the conclusion of the WC that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs was wrong, as those men couldn't possibly have been there at that time. Do you agree?
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When you say that Adams and Styles beat everybody else to the stairs, meaning they were ahead of the killer, you must agree that Adams and Styles immediately left the 4th floor window after the last shot. Right? That means that the conclusion of the WC that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs was wrong, as those men couldn't possibly have been there at that time. Do you agree?
The "Adams & Styles Beat Everybody Else To The Stairs" conclusion is probably not what happened, IMO. I offered it up in my previous post as merely a POSSIBLE solution to the controversy involving Adams, Styles, and Garner. But, like you said, that "possible" solution brings about other snags and problems---like the Lovelady/Shelley timing.
But we must always keep in mind when evaluating "timeline" type evidence and testimony that nobody on Nov. 22 had a stopwatch to provide any to-the-second exactitude relating to their movements. And that goes for everybody involved---from Adams to Garner to Shelley to Lovelady to Baker.
And although Baker's movements were timed in two re-creations done for the WC, we also must remember that Baker himself said that he probably took LONGER to do the things he did on Nov. 22 itself than he did in his reconstructions in March of '64. So that fact (alone) could affect the "timelines" of multiple people, and it could mean that (just perhaps) Adams & Styles didn't get to the stairs quite as fast as Adams says they did (even if they DID beat Truly & Baker to those same stairs).
Anyway, after evaluating all of the various "timeline" issues associated with the race down the back stairs, it's my own opinion that Adams & Styles were very likely on the stairs only AFTER Truly and Baker had started up those same stairs.
And a possible scenario to account for Dorothy Garner's observations (which first came to light in the Stroud document) would be that Adams & Styles were on the second-floor landing at the precise time when Truly, Baker, and Oswald were all in the lunchroom/vestibule, which would have placed all of those men in a location where they could not have been seen by Adams/Styles. Perhaps that scenario isn't very likely, but it's certainly not impossible. And, in fact, it's a scenario that is even mentioned as a possibility on Page 154 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0089b.htm) of the Warren Report.
All of my thoughts on the Adams/Styles/Garner Staircase Controversy are archived at my site HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html).
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I've never told any "lies" about the JFK case. (And an "opinion" that doesn't agree with your conspiracy-slanted version of events is not a "lie". I hope you'll keep that fact in mind if you ever decide to call me a liar again in the future.)
Yeah, sure, Martin. Whatever you say. ::)
Well, since there was absolutely nobody else up there on the 6th floor when Oswald was doing the things that I think he did just before 12:30 on 11/22/63, then OF COURSE I've used terms like "I believe" and "It's possible" on my Timeline Page (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html). Isn't that better than saying Oswald "definitely did this" or "positively did that at exactly this time"?
Since there are no 6th-Floor witnesses to anything the assassin did, all I can possibly do is "assume" the things that "I believe" are most certainly "possible" regarding Oswald's exact actions and movements on the sixth floor on 11/22. It's either engaging in some guesswork or just forget about making up a "Timeline" at all. I chose the former option.
Obligatory ----> Duh!!
No, it's a reasonable inference (i.e., a good guess) as to where Oswald was located during the few minutes when Bonnie Ray was up there eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich lunch.
Wrong. I can place him in the Sniper's Nest shooting at JFK at exactly 12:30 --- via the witness all CTers love to hate, Howard L. Brennan.
But, like it or not, Brennan (in front of the WC) did positively I.D. Oswald as the assassin.
Plus: Via another "reasonable inference", I can place Oswald on the west side of the sixth floor, holding his Carcano rifle (another wholly "reasonable inference" there), at approximately 12:15 PM. Those reasonable inferences (guesses) come, of course, via the testimony of Arnold Rowland.
Once again, it's a "reasonable inference" based on the evidence AS A WHOLE, which is telling any reasonable and sensible person looking at that totality of evidence that Lee Oswald (and his rifle) were, indeed, on the sixth floor shooting at the President at exactly 12:30 PM.
And since we have irrefutable proof (via Marrion Baker and Roy Truly) that Mr. Oswald was positively in the second-floor lunchroom (near the back stairway) within just two minutes or so after the President was shot by Oswald and his Carcano, then the reasonable inference to reach here is:
Lee Oswald must have utilized that back staircase between 12:30 PM and 12:32 PM CST on November 22nd. (And this inference/conclusion can easily still be reached regardless of the observations of Dorothy Garner, Victoria Adams, or anyone else. With the simple answer to the Garner/Adams/Styles controversy being: Adams and Styles beat everybody else to the stairs that day.)
I'm sorry, David, no!
http://www.22november1963.org.uk/who-saw-oswald-in-the-sixth-floor-window
Of course, you have this to "fall back" on! :
Author Epstein,
Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald - Page 209
books.google.com › books (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22*+Oswald+picked+it+up+at+the+post+office+and+brought+it+back+to+his+office+%2C+where+he+showed+it+to+one+of+his+fellow+employees+%2C+Jack+Bowen++%22&sca_esv=584551767&hl=en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=AM9HkKlk8IO7pTZvMowdiOshANq9sFR46Q%3A1700649302429&ei=VtldZYPcGdKiqtsP1oOxyAU&ved=0ahUKEwiD37ustNeCAxVSkWoFHdZBDFkQ4dUDCAg&uact=5&oq=%22*+Oswald+picked+it+up+at+the+post+office+and+brought+it+back+to+his+office+%2C+where+he+showed+it+to+one+of+his+fellow+employees+%2C+Jack+Bowen++%22&gs_lp=Eg1nd3Mtd2l6LWJvb2tzIo8BIiogT3N3YWxkIHBpY2tlZCBpdCB1cCBhdCB0aGUgcG9zdCBvZmZpY2UgYW5kIGJyb3VnaHQgaXQgYmFjayB0byBoaXMgb2ZmaWNlICwgd2hlcmUgaGUgc2hvd2VkIGl0IHRvIG9uZSBvZiBoaXMgZmVsbG93IGVtcGxveWVlcyAsIEphY2sgQm93ZW4gICJIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEB&sclient=gws-wiz-books)
Edward Jay Epstein · 1978 · Snippet view
Found inside – Page 209
... the rifle arrived in Dallas . Oswald picked it up at the post office and brought it back to his office , where he showed it to one of his fellow employees , Jack Bowen . Things had not been going well for Oswald at Jaggars- Chiles ...
Bowen's sister-in-law...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3862.msg152757.html#msg152757
"..In the 1966 Irving City Directory, (page image @bottom of this post) Dial Ryder's father-in-law is still listed as residing at 2434 W. 5th, almost directly across from the Frazier-Randall 1963 residence at 2439 W. 5th.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/15159367/peggie-jo-ryder
DPD and or FBI was leaking details of the content of Oswald's wallet(s). Ferrie had allegedly used the alias Bowen.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62253#relPageId=154&search=gill_wray%20bowen%20library%20card
1. FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 3, pg 154
Found in: FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)
P A G E E TWO FERRIE REINTERVIEWED TODAY AND STATED ALLEGATIION RE OSWALD J r~ BEING IN POSSESSION OF HIS LIBRARY CARD WAS MADE BY JACK_ MARTIN. 4TTORNEY G.
WRAY GILL TOL FERRIE THIS AND STATED GILL/S S SOURCE OF INFORMATION WAS ONE HARDY AVIS, A FOR~~ER NEW ORLEAN) BOUND:' N. r 17 C1'_ li 3 1 END AND ACK PLS HOLD FOR ONE MORE WA 1-38 AM OK FBIWA HFL HOLDIN DL 1-3-7 AM CST OK FBI DL FLL HOLDING
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233276#relPageId=100&search=gill_wray%20bowen%20library%20card
Bowen stated that on one occasion he was present while OSWALD was discussing obtaining a library card so that he could charge out books on the Russian language at the Public Library.
Bowen told I : J . im that he would have to furnish the library with a reference prior to obtaining a card. BOWEN gave him his full name and address so that OSWALD could use it as a reference.
He did not give OSWALD his own library card and is positive that OSWALD never used hi card to obtain books. BOWEN did state that OSWALD could have secured a library and used BOWEN ' s name.
Roy E. Jones @ 2434 W. 5th, on middle left of page image,
1966 Irving City Directory..."
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3862.msg152705.html#msg152705
"..In 1973, when Grossi (AKA Jack Bowen) and his girlfriend stole a $17,000 motor home in Lodi, CA, the FBI launched an exhaustive investigation, something they showed no sign of doing, here, despite investigators by nature being dismissive of coincidences!
www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137435#relPageId=1
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The "Adams & Styles Beat Everybody Else To The Stairs" conclusion is probably not what happened, IMO. I offered it up in my previous post as merely a POSSIBLE solution to the controversy involving Adams, Styles, and Garner. But, like you said, that "possible" solution brings about other snags and problems---like the Lovelady/Shelley timing.
But we must always keep in mind when evaluating "timeline" type evidence and testimony that nobody on Nov. 22 had a stopwatch to provide any to-the-second exactitude relating to their movements. And that goes for everybody involved---from Adams to Garner to Shelley to Lovelady to Baker. (And although Baker's movements were timed in two re-creations done for the WC, we also must remember that Baker himself said that he probably took LONGER to do the things he did on Nov. 22 itself than he did in his reconstructions in March of '64. So that fact (alone) could affect the "timelines" of multiple people, and it could mean that (just perhaps) Adams & Styles didn't get to the stairs quite as fast as Adams says they did (even if they DID beat Truly & Baker to those same stairs).
Anyway, after evaluating all of the various "timeline" issues associated with the race down the back stairs, it's my own opinion that Adams & Styles were very likely on the stairs only AFTER Truly, Baker, and Oswald had started up those same stairs.
And a possible scenario to account for Dorothy Garner's observations that came out in the Stroud document would be that Adams & Styles were on the second-floor landing at the precise time when Truly, Baker, and Oswald were all in the lunchroom/vestibule, which would have placed them in a location where they couldn't have been seen by Adams/Styles. Perhaps that scenario isn't very likely, but it's certainly not impossible.
All of my thoughts on the Adams/Styles/Garner Staircase Controversy are archived at my site HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html).
Anyway, after evaluating all of the various "timeline" issues associated with the race down the back stairs, it's my own opinion that Adams & Styles were very likely on the stairs only AFTER Truly, Baker, and Oswald had started up those same stairs.
But that contradicts what Dororthy Garner said. What I find extremely troubling about this affair is that Belin wasn't interested at all in Adams' offer to do a time trial (according to Adams they even left it out of her testimony), that they did not call Styles and although they did interview Garner several times they ultimately decided to bury the Stroud letter in Adams' file.
And a possible scenario to account for Dorothy Garner's observations that came out in the Stroud document would be that Adams & Styles were on the second-floor landing at the precise time when Truly, Baker, and Oswald were all in the lunchroom/vestibule, which would have placed them in a location where they couldn't have been seen by Adams/Styles. Perhaps that scenario isn't very likely, but it's certainly not impossible.
I agree. It's unlikely but not impossible. It would however destroy the WC conclusion about Adams seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor, because their testimony clearly shows they did not re-enter the annex of the TSBD until at least 5 minutes after the shows (an estimate without a stopwatch, so it could have been more or less).
Another problem with this theory is that Truly was already at the 3rd floor before he noticed Baker wasn't behind him anymore. So, the likelihood that Adams and Styles passed by Truly and Baker, while they were in the 2nd floor lunchroom together is (IMO) remote.
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I'm, sorry, David, no!
http://www.22november1963.org.uk/who-saw-oswald-in-the-sixth-floor-window
Of course, you have this to "fall back" on! :
Author Epstein,
Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald - Page 209
books.google.com › books
Edward Jay Epstein · 1978 · Snippet view
Found inside – Page 209
... the rifle arrived in Dallas . Oswald picked it up at the post office and brought it back to his office , where he showed it to one of his fellow employees , Jack Bowen . Things had not been going well for Oswald at Jaggars- Chiles ...
I really wish that David, or any other LN, could conclusively place Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 on 11/22/63 because that would close the book on the assassination of Kennedy. Unfortunately, all we get is assumptions disguised as "reasonable inference".
The problem with assumptions is that with enough of them you can find anybody guilty of anything. Is this really what the most important murder case of the century is coming down to?
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I really wish that David, or any other LN, could conclusively place Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 on 11/22/63 because that would close the book on the assassination of Kennedy. Unfortunately, all we get is assumptions disguised as "reasonable inference".
The problem with assumptions is that with enough of them you can find anybody guilty of anything. Is this really what the most important murder case of the century is coming down to?
We know two things as direct results of my research, instigated by my curiousity spurred on by my refusal to adopt David von Pein's "case closed" stance to the JFK Assassination Investigation.
AFAIK, I discovered what William Hoyt Shelley looked like and that Dial Ryder was the uncle of Jack Bowen's son (Why didn't the FBI discover it and inform the WC?). Are we better off knowing such things? Isn't that what this pursuit is really all about...reaching conclusions based on maximum awareness and not concluding where reasonable doubt persists? Is it mere coincidence that brothers-in-law Bowen and Ryder are associated with cementing "Oswald and the rifle" despite neither having to testify to that?
BTW, the FBI didn't identify who the other Bowen, the one Albert Osbourne was impersonating, despite reporting that two agents had searched the Chester County, PA newspaper morgues less than two years after this...
I did, using the information provided in the Warren report,
Loads slowly,
https://web.archive.org/web/20170828042556/http://jfk.education/node/16
Bowen or Osborne, "just one of those things?"
Submitted by Admin on Sat, 12/12/2015 -
....
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/wh25_ce_2195.pdf
(https://web.archive.org/web/20170828042556im_/http://jfk.education/images/BowenFBIChester.jpg)
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I really wish that David, or any other LN, could conclusively place Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 on 11/22/63 because that would close the book on the assassination of Kennedy. Unfortunately, all we get is assumptions disguised as "reasonable inference".
The problem with assumptions is that with enough of them you can find anybody guilty of anything. Is this really what the most important murder case of the century is coming down to?
Well, Martin, it sure would be ideal if I could offer up a photo or a film of Oswald shooting Kennedy. And it would be equally as handy if I could offer up a sixth-floor witness who happened to see Lee Oswald as he was pulling the trigger. But, unfortunately, Oswald got extremely lucky to have the entire sixth floor to himself for that brief period of time it took him to kill the President. So what else is there except a certain amount of "inference" and "guesswork" to be done when it comes to what you want me to "prove"? There are no sixth-floor witnesses....period.
But what we DO have are the things Oswald left behind --- HIS rifle, HIS prints at the exact spot where JFK's assassin was located (i.e., deep within the Sniper's Nest), and the EMPTY 38-inch paper bag with HIS prints on it.
And there's also the fact that Oswald had no provable alibi for the exact time of the assassination. (Is there any other Depository employee who can be placed in that "No Alibi" category? I doubt that there is.)
Therefore, why on Earth shouldn't I be pointing a finger of guilt at Lee Harvey Oswald, the man to whom all of the physical evidence leads?
Should I just IGNORE all of that evidence or pretend it's all been "planted" there to frame an innocent Oswald? Sorry, but that idea is beyond silly and foolish (IMHO).
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I really wish that David, or any other LN, could conclusively place Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:30 on 11/22/63 because that would close the book on the assassination of Kennedy. Unfortunately, all we get is assumptions disguised as "reasonable inference".
The problem with assumptions is that with enough of them you can find anybody guilty of anything. Is this really what the most important murder case of the century is coming down to?
The problem with assumptions is that with enough of them you can find anybody guilty of anything.
What a ludicrously naïve and excessively ignorant comment!
It's no assumption that Oswald defected to the enemy at the height of the cold war.
It's no assumption that Oswald slashed his wrist, when denied entry to Russia.
It's no assumption that Oswald wrote a letter to his brother that under certain circumstances Oswald would "Kill any American".
It's no assumption that Oswald hit his wife.
It's no assumption that Oswald ordered and purchased a rifle.
It's no assumption that Oswald ordered and purchased a revolver.
It's no assumption that Oswald was photographed with a 40 inch Carcano.
It's no assumption that Oswald was photographed with a handgun.
It's no assumption that Oswald's camera took photos of Walker's residence.
It's no assumption that Oswald had a map with an "X" marking Walker's residence.
It's no assumption that Oswald's handwriting was on a note indicating what Marina had to do after Oswald could potentially be arrested or killed.
It's no assumption that Marina saw the end of a rifle wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage.
It's no assumption that Oswald for the first time since being employed at the Texas School Book Depository went home mid week.
It's no assumption that Oswald left the majority of his money and his wedding ring with Marina on the morning of the assassination.
It's no assumption that Oswald carried a long brown package to work on the morning of the assassination, to which Frazier said "I didn't pay too much attention"
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about telling Frazier the Curtain rod story.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about the contents of his long package.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about putting the long package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
It's no assumption that Oswald had no alibi.
It's no assumption that Oswald's rifle was discovered on the 6th floor.
It's no assumption that Oswald's prints were discovered on Oswald's rifle.
It's no assumption that Oswald's prints were discovered on the long package.
It's no assumption that Oswald's fresh prints were discovered on 1 of the rifle rest boxes, which were moved over 40 feet.
It's no assumption that Oswald's fresh prints were on top of the rifle rest box were oriented down Elm street
It's no assumption that Oswald was positively identified by Howard Brennan in his testimony under oath.
It's no assumption that Brennan's close description of Oswald was broadcast at 12:45.
It's no assumption that Oswald was in the act of flight immediately after the assassination.
It's no assumption that Oswald got on and off a bus.
It's no assumption that Oswald got out of his cab way past his Rooming House.
It's no assumption that Oswald retrieved his revolver.
It's no assumption was zipping up his jacket when he left the Rooming House.
It's no assumption that Oswald killed a cop and why would anyone have the need to kill a cop doing a random check?
It's no assumption that Oswald was positively identified either at or leaving the Tippit crime scene.
It's no assumption that Oswald's jacket was discovered in a parking lot that Oswald was seen entering.
It's no assumption that Oswald was arrested without his jacket.
It's no assumption that Oswald went into a dark theater.
It's no assumption that Oswald punched a cop when the cop was simply approaching.
It's no assumption that Oswald pulled out his revolver and pulled the trigger.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about owning a rifle.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about the backyard photos.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about killing Tippit.
It's no assumption that Oswald was a dirty rotten double murderer!!!
JohnM
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Well, Martin, it sure would be ideal if I could offer up a photo or a film of Oswald shooting Kennedy. And it would be equally as handy if I could offer up a sixth-floor witness who happened to see Lee Oswald as he was pulling the trigger. But, unfortunately, Oswald got extremely lucky to have the entire sixth floor to himself for that brief period of time it took him to kill the President. So what else is there except a certain amount of "inference" and "guesswork" to be done when it comes to what you want me to "prove"? There are no sixth-floor witnesses....period.
But what we DO have are the things Oswald left behind --- HIS rifle, HIS prints at the exact spot where JFK's assassin was located (i.e., deep within the Sniper's Nest), and the EMPTY 38-inch paper bag with HIS prints on it.
And there's also the fact that Oswald had no provable alibi for the exact time of the assassination. (Is there any other Depository employee who can be placed in that "No Alibi" category? I doubt that there is.)
Therefore, why on Earth shouldn't I be pointing a finger of guilt at Mr. Oswald, the man to whom all of the physical evidence leads?
Should I just IGNORE all of that evidence or pretend it's all been "planted" there to frame an innocent Oswald? Sorry, but that idea is beyond silly and foolish (IMHO).
David and John, correct me if you disagree. You both see and accept that there was a thorough, forthright investigation. Case closed?
David, did Oswald "break in" to the TSBD to obtain an opportunity to make "the 38-inch bag"?
http://22november1963.org.uk/tsbd-sixth-floor-paper-bag-genuine
http://findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=32875262
1878 – 1962 John Howard Bowen
(No Social Security record found)
Quote
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGYJ-Y18
Name: John Howard Bowen
Event Date: 31 Jan 1962
Place: Hamlet, Richmond, North Carolina
Birth: 1878
Burial Date: 04 Feb 1962
Burial Place: Chester, Pennsylvania (FBI claimed search of Chester “newspaper morgues” per CE 2195 pg.11
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/wh25_ce_21... )
Cemetery: Lawncroft
versus :
Loads slowly,
https://web.archive.org/web/20170828042556/http://jfk.education/node/16
Bowen or Osborne, "just one of those things?"
Submitted by Admin on Sat, 12/12/2015 -
....
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/wh25_ce_2195.pdf
(https://web.archive.org/web/20170828042556im_/http://jfk.education/images/BowenFBIChester.jpg)
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You can't even get it straight that I am not a conspiracy theorist.
Yeah, sure, Martin. Whatever you say. ::)
Hilarious! I see that Martin is still persisting with this absurd claim?
Martin with every post, day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, has actively promoted a conspiracy thus Martin's theory is that there was a conspiracy therefore he's a Conspiracy Theorist! Thumb1:
Just because Martin or for that matter any CT, doesn't have the deductive reasoning skills to define who did what, doesn't detract from the fact, that they are all Conspiracy Theorist's.
You'd think that after the most investigated murder of all time with millions of hours spent researching, interviewing and speculating that the CT's would have come to some sort of collective conclusion but yet, they still haven't, what a waste of so many lives!
JohnM
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Hilarious! I see that Martin is still persisting with this absurd claim?
Martin with every post, day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, has actively promoted a conspiracy thus Martin's theory is that there was a conspiracy therefore he's a Conspiracy Theorist! Thumb1:
Just because Martin or for that matter any CT, doesn't have the deductive reasoning skills to define who did what, doesn't detract from the fact, that they are all Conspiracy Theorist's.
You'd think that after the most investigated murder of all time with millions of hours spent researching, interviewing and speculating that the CT's would have come to some sort of collective conclusion but yet, they still haven't, what a waste of so many lives!
JohnM
It would surprise me if David dismissed me as a CT. It is not either, or...not that simple.
Should new facts be searched for and the results pursued? Will you be doing that, John? Is it helpful to learn why the PMO mailed to Klein's for a rifle purchase was recovered in Arlington, VA instead of in Kansas City? Is it helpful to learn that William Whaley made himself, after 1942, out to be exactly three years older than he really was or that his son, William, Jr. completely erased his father from his life?
https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231323/http://www.jfk.education/node/11
...
(https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231323im_/http://jfk.education/images/SuspicionsVsFacts.jpg)
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It would surprise me if David dismissed me as a CT. It is not either, or...not that simple.
Should new facts be searched for and the results pursued? Will you be doing that, John? Is it helpful to learn why the PMO mailed to Klein's for a rifle purchase was recovered in Arlington, VA instead of in Kansas City? Is it helpful to learn that William Whaley made himself, after 1942, out to be exactly three years older than he really was or that his son, William, Jr. completely erased his father from his life?
https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231323/http://www.jfk.education/node/11
...
(https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231323im_/http://jfk.education/images/SuspicionsVsFacts.jpg)
Should new facts be searched for and the results pursued?
Sure, why not.
Will you be doing that, John?
My work with the JFKA images have helped many see details they never knew existed and my proving the authenticity of the Stereoscopic Autopsy photos with my smoothly rotating three dimensional morphing images speak for themselves!
Is it helpful to learn why the PMO mailed to Klein's for a rifle purchase was recovered in Arlington, VA instead of in Kansas City?
I have no idea what you are talking about, are you saying that Kleins mixed up an address and if so I don't find that particularly unusual or proof of anything. And please explain what the connection is to the fact that Oswald received the same rifle that Kleins sent?
Is it helpful to learn that William Whaley made himself, after 1942, out to be exactly three years older than he really was..
Not really, Whaley was a very minor player in this case, but tell me Tom, what do you think a three year age difference actually proves?
or that his son, William, Jr. completely erased his father from his life?
So what? Again, tell me why you think this is significant?
JohnM
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Sure, why not.
My work with the JFKA images have helped many see details they never knew existed and my proving the authenticity of the Stereoscopic Autopsy photos with my smoothly rotating three dimensional morphing images speak for themselves!
I have no idea what you are talking about, are you saying that Kleins mixed up an address and if so I don't find that particularly unusual or proof of anything. And please explain what the connection is to the fact that Oswald received the same rifle that Kleins sent?
Not really, Whaley was a very minor player in this case, but tell me Tom, what do you think a three year age difference actually proves?
So what? Again, tell me why you think this is significant?
JohnM
If you move to the third column, on the right, of the late 1962 Postal Bulletin document image (quoted in your post) I presented in 2015, the text should confirm the argument you are making in your post of less than a month ago,
I know the above post is a few years old but I hope in the meantime you have thought this through because these two ideas, seem to be at cross purposes.
The first part of your post looks like the entire process was fraudulent from the start but your second idea is that the money order was actually sent? So what do you think happened?
Now, if someone(who ever it was), bought the money order and sent it to Kleins with the rifle coupon, what stopped the order from being completed in the usual way that Kleins processed all their orders?
Anyway, let's go deeper, the money order was retrieved from the Federal reserve and as Tom and Tim have pointed out, the Oswald Money Order was retrieved by locating the "File Locator Number"? -SNIP-
...
And we know it was retrieved because the money order has a chain of custody from the National Archive until it was submitted into evidence
.....
JohnM
Whaley was so meticulous about details in his background, he corrected the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS over an irrelevant comment,
Whaley's first wife died from TB in 1934. His relationship and reputation with his deceased wife's family was so poor the Whaley family describes the custody of Whaley's son with his deceased wife's sister as a kidnapping.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28682630/sylvia-whaley
Whaley and Earline Roberts established the timeline leading to the Tippit shooting. Roberts claimed DPD detectives arrived at the rooming house at 1:30 pm. Detective Potts said his DPD team arrived at 3:00 pm.
The point is that Roberts and Whaley offered worse than no supporting evidence!
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm
Mr. BALL. How much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights right, how long did it take you?
Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.
Mr. BALL. Nine minutes?
Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.
Representative FORD. Now on this particular trip with Oswald, do you recall the lights being with you?
Mr. WHALEY. They were with me, sir; for I timed them that way before I took off. Because I made that so much that I know the light system and how they are going to turn.
Representative FORD. So this was a typical trip?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years.
Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven.
Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners. .."
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley
Birth 19 Jun 1905
Son:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/254286834/william-w-whaley
"Abductor":
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/1166607/alice-patterson-seales
"Abductor":
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/1166608/alvin-s-seales
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
"... Biography
William Wayne Whaley was born June 19, 1908, in Sulphur Springs, Texas. [1] He was the son of Oscar and Lona Whaley.
His first marriage, about 1929, to Sylvia Patterson produced one son, Billy Wayne, who was, unfortunately, abducted. ..."
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157070315/
Tuesday, June 24, 1997
Rio Rancho. WHALEY William Wayne Whaley, 65, passed away unexpectedly on June 18, 1997 in Michigan while on vacation. Husband of 43 years to Dorothy; father and father-in-law of Jamy and Gregg Peevy and Bill Jr. and Dee Whaley, all of Albuquerque; son of Alice (Pat) Scales of Albuquerque. Mr. Whaley retired from Us Alamos National Ubs in 1993 after 17 years. A memorial service will be held Wednesday, 3:00 p.m. at French Mortuary, Umas Blvd. Chapel, 10500 Umas NE. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Noonday Ministry, P.O. Box 8769, Albuquerque, NM 87198 or New Mexico Boys and Girls Ranch, 6209 Hendrix NE, Albuquerque, NM 87110.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157414971/
Tuesday, October 30, 1984 Albuquerque Journal
..............
SEALES Mr. Alvin S. Seales, age 73 and a resident here 21 years, died Monday in a local hospital following an illness. He is survived by his wife, Alice; a son William W. Whaley and wife Dorothy; granddaughter Jamy Whaley; grandson, William W. Whaley Jr. and wife Nancy, all of Albuquerque; a brother Clarence L Seales and wife Ramona; sister Denme Mae Morris; sister-in-law Katie Seales; four nephews and five nieces. Mr. Seales retired from Federal A via Don Administration and was a member of the Methodist Church, Air Traffic Control Association, a veteran of WWII, and member of D.A.V. Borderland Post 10 in El Paso, TX. Services will be held Wednesday at 11.00 a.m. in the Chapel of Fitzgerald and Son Funeral Directors, 3113 Carlisle NE, with Rev. Henry Weston, officiating. Inter ment will follow in the Santa Fe National Cemetery at 1:00 p.m.
http://obits.abqjournal.com/obits/show/124388
Published on: Fri January 29, 1999
..............
Seales -- Alice (Pat) Seales, passed away Wednesday morning, January 27, 1999, at Sunrise Mission Manor Care and Rehabilitation. She was 91 years old. She was preceded in death by her husband, Alvin S. Seales; and her son, William Whaley. She is survived by her daughter-in-law, Dorothy Whaley; and grandchildren, Jamy Peevy and her husband, Gregg, Bill Whaley and his wife, Dee. Memorial services will take place at a later date. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Sandia Hospice, 4775 Indian School Rd. NE, Suite 310, Albuquerque, NM 87110.
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Well, Martin, it sure would be ideal if I could offer up a photo or a film of Oswald shooting Kennedy. And it would be equally as handy if I could offer up a sixth-floor witness who happened to see Lee Oswald as he was pulling the trigger. But, unfortunately, Oswald got extremely lucky to have the entire sixth floor to himself for that brief period of time it took him to kill the President. So what else is there except a certain amount of "inference" and "guesswork" to be done when it comes to what you want me to "prove"? There are no sixth-floor witnesses....period.
But what we DO have are the things Oswald left behind --- HIS rifle, HIS prints at the exact spot where JFK's assassin was located (i.e., deep within the Sniper's Nest), and the EMPTY 38-inch paper bag with HIS prints on it.
And there's also the fact that Oswald had no provable alibi for the exact time of the assassination. (Is there any other Depository employee who can be placed in that "No Alibi" category? I doubt that there is.)
Therefore, why on Earth shouldn't I be pointing a finger of guilt at Lee Harvey Oswald, the man to whom all of the physical evidence leads?
Should I just IGNORE all of that evidence or pretend it's all been "planted" there to frame an innocent Oswald? Sorry, but that idea is beyond silly and foolish (IMHO).
Well, Martin, it sure would be ideal if I could offer up a photo or a film of Oswald shooting Kennedy. And it would be equally as handy if I could offer up a sixth-floor witness who happened to see Lee Oswald as he was pulling the trigger. But, unfortunately, Oswald got extremely lucky to have the entire sixth floor to himself for that brief period of time it took him to kill the President. So what else is there except a certain amount of "inference" and "guesswork" to be done when it comes to what you want me to "prove"? There are no sixth-floor witnesses....period.
So, you agree there is no real direct evidence that places Oswald on the 6th floor when the shots were fired? That's progress.
But what we DO have are the things Oswald left behind --- HIS rifle, HIS prints at the exact spot where JFK's assassin was located (i.e., deep within the Sniper's Nest), and the EMPTY 38-inch paper bag with HIS prints on it.
And how exactly do you know that it was Oswald who left those things behind? You talk about "his rifle" but even if he did purchase it and even if he was photographed with it, in late March 1963, how do you know that particular rifle was still in his possession on 11/22/63 for him to leave behind? As far as "his prints at the exact spot..." goes, the evidentiary value of prints found of an employee who's job it was to open and move boxes on that particular floor is pretty low. The "empty 38-inch paper bag" is IMO a somewhat mysterious and contentious item. That bag would have had to be made at the TSBD, yet nobody saw Oswald ever near or operating the wrapping machine. Frazier did not see Oswald carry a paper bag to Irving on Thursday and he denies to this day that the bag found at the TSBD was not the bag he had seen Oswald carry on Friday morning. I can't explain how Oswald's print got on that bag, but I do have several theories about it. Theories, however, are not evidence.
To conclude that Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired based on these three points is like building a house on quicksand. I won't go into the issue of the rifle purchase at this point, but that's another pandora's box.
And there's also the fact that Oswald had no provable alibi for the exact time of the assassination. (Is there any other Depository employee who can be placed in that "No Alibi" category? I doubt that there is.)
As we don't have a verbatim record of what Oswald actually said to his interrogators we will never know for sure if Oswald had a provable alibi or not. The summary reports by the interrogators, written days later, simply do not provide sufficient information to make any kind of sound determination (IMO). Besides, not having an alibi doesn't automatically make somebody guilty!
Therefore, why on Earth shouldn't I be pointing a finger of guilt at Lee Harvey Oswald, the man to whom all of the physical evidence leads?
I do agree that what scant physical evidence there is can indeed be linked to Oswald, however, we don't know if there was other evidence pointing in another direction as well or not. We have to rely totally on what the WC provided and they, in turn, for a large part had to rely on what Hoover's FBI provided to them. Over the years it has become very clear that there are all sorts of evidentiary problems with the physical evidence that we, most likely, will never be able to resolve.
A few examples;
There is no chain of custody for C399 before it reached the FBI lab in Washington. O.V. Wright denies the bullet now in evidence is the bullet he handled. In his deposition, Tomlinson was never shown C399 and asked to identify it. And then there is FBI agent Odum who denies having ever shown C399 to Tomlinson and Wright in April 1964, despite what Shanklin wrote in his airtel.
Then there are the bullet fragments that were allegedly found in the limo. We will never know for certain if those fragments did in fact come from the limo. Frazier and his team were supposed to examine the limo as a crime scene, but before he could get to the Secret Service garage two men (I'm writing this from memory and can't instantly recall their names) went through the limo, not only contaminating the crime scene but also allegedly removing evidence without first photographing it in situ. When Frazier finally arrived at the garage he was just given the fragments and told they had come from the limo. In any other murder case, this kind of "evidence" would be instantly declared inadmissible.
And then we have the three shells found at the sniper's nest. It is a matter of record that Fritz, when he entered the nest, picked up the shells and later threw them back on the floor again. The evidentiary problem is of course that we don't and can't know for sure if the shells he threw on the floor were the same ones that he picked up. Now, before you get all worked up about this, you do know, don't you, that the purpose of the chain of custody rules is to preserve the evidence and project it, as much as possible, against any kind of manipulation?
And the paper bag wasn't seen by the first six officers in the nest and then was seen by several others. Studebaker failed to photograph it in situ and although it was allegedly folded up when it was found, it was carried out of the TSBD unfolded and upside down, allowing items that were perhaps in the bag to fall out. Later that same bag was photographed at the FBI lab in Washington lying next to the blanket taken from Ruth Paine's garage which was, to say the least, a violation of the way evidence is supposed to be protected against cross contamination.
Obviously I am playing Devil's advocate here and I could go on and on, but you get the picture. So, on a superficial level the physical evidence may point to Oswald but upon closer inspection things get IMO very blurred and convoluted.
Should I just IGNORE all of that evidence or pretend it's all been "planted" there to frame an innocent Oswald? Sorry, but that idea is beyond silly and foolish (IMHO).
Nobody is asking you to ignore any of the evidence and you don't have to pretend that all of it has been planted, because that's certainly not the case IMO. What you perhaps should do is deal with the evidence honestly with an open mind and in a less superficial manner and consider the possibility that some of the evidence could have been manipulated after the fact to wrap the case around a man who was already deemed to be guilty before the first pieces of evidence were collected and examined.
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What a ludicrously naïve and excessively ignorant comment!
It's no assumption that Oswald defected to the enemy at the height of the cold war.
It's no assumption that Oswald slashed his wrist, when denied entry to Russia.
It's no assumption that Oswald wrote a letter to his brother that under certain circumstances Oswald would "Kill any American".
It's no assumption that Oswald hit his wife.
It's no assumption that Oswald ordered and purchased a rifle.
It's no assumption that Oswald ordered and purchased a revolver.
It's no assumption that Oswald was photographed with a 40 inch Carcano.
It's no assumption that Oswald was photographed with a handgun.
It's no assumption that Oswald's camera took photos of Walker's residence.
It's no assumption that Oswald had a map with an "X" marking Walker's residence.
It's no assumption that Oswald's handwriting was on a note indicating what Marina had to do after Oswald could potentially be arrested or killed.
It's no assumption that Marina saw the end of a rifle wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage.
It's no assumption that Oswald for the first time since being employed at the Texas School Book Depository went home mid week.
It's no assumption that Oswald left the majority of his money and his wedding ring with Marina on the morning of the assassination.
It's no assumption that Oswald carried a long brown package to work on the morning of the assassination, to which Frazier said "I didn't pay too much attention"
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about telling Frazier the Curtain rod story.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about the contents of his long package.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about putting the long package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
It's no assumption that Oswald had no alibi.
It's no assumption that Oswald's rifle was discovered on the 6th floor.
It's no assumption that Oswald's prints were discovered on Oswald's rifle.
It's no assumption that Oswald's prints were discovered on the long package.
It's no assumption that Oswald's fresh prints were discovered on 1 of the rifle rest boxes, which were moved over 40 feet.
It's no assumption that Oswald's fresh prints were on top of the rifle rest box were oriented down Elm street
It's no assumption that Oswald was positively identified by Howard Brennan in his testimony under oath.
It's no assumption that Brennan's close description of Oswald was broadcast at 12:45.
It's no assumption that Oswald was in the act of flight immediately after the assassination.
It's no assumption that Oswald got on and off a bus.
It's no assumption that Oswald got out of his cab way past his Rooming House.
It's no assumption that Oswald retrieved his revolver.
It's no assumption was zipping up his jacket when he left the Rooming House.
It's no assumption that Oswald killed a cop and why would anyone have the need to kill a cop doing a random check?
It's no assumption that Oswald was positively identified either at or leaving the Tippit crime scene.
It's no assumption that Oswald's jacket was discovered in a parking lot that Oswald was seen entering.
It's no assumption that Oswald was arrested without his jacket.
It's no assumption that Oswald went into a dark theater.
It's no assumption that Oswald punched a cop when the cop was simply approaching.
It's no assumption that Oswald pulled out his revolver and pulled the trigger.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about owning a rifle.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about the backyard photos.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
It's no assumption that Oswald lied about killing Tippit.
It's no assumption that Oswald was a dirty rotten double murderer!!!
JohnM
Sorry, John, but I can't deal with this much stupidity. There are so many assumptions in your list that I would have to write a book to explain them all to you. But I won't do that because you will never ever understand it.
If you want to be this superficial, go right ahead, but don't ask me to come down to your level.
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Hilarious! I see that Martin is still persisting with this absurd claim?
Martin with every post, day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, has actively promoted a conspiracy thus Martin's theory is that there was a conspiracy therefore he's a Conspiracy Theorist! Thumb1:
Just because Martin or for that matter any CT, doesn't have the deductive reasoning skills to define who did what, doesn't detract from the fact, that they are all Conspiracy Theorist's.
You'd think that after the most investigated murder of all time with millions of hours spent researching, interviewing and speculating that the CT's would have come to some sort of collective conclusion but yet, they still haven't, what a waste of so many lives!
JohnM
Not everybody who does not agree with your biased, narrow-minded view of the evidence is automatically a conspiracy theorist. To be one, one needs to actually have a conspiracy theory! Or is that already way over your head?
It is true that when you scrutinize the evidence in a way you clearly have never done, you also have to consider the possibility of evidence being manipulated, which in turn would suggest a conspiracy as that is the only alternative for Oswald being the lone gunman. But accepting that there is a possibility that there could have been been a conspiracy is something completely different than claiming there was an actual conspiracy. (Still with me, or is this too complicated for you?).
Your "if you are not with me, you are against me" attitude is childish and without reason. Five year olds argue that way! I fully understand why you would want to color all skeptics as conspiracy theorists, because that makes them easier for you to ridicule, which is of course the true reason why you are here. If you have to deal with a skeptic you actually need to argue the case and we both know that beyond one liners and ridicule you haven't got much.
You'd think that after the most investigated murder of all time with millions of hours spent researching, interviewing and speculating, LNs like you would have come up with a plausible and conclusive scenario that is persuasive enough to win over the skeptics, but instead all you seem to be able to do is regurgitate the same superficial arguments that the spindoctors at the WC and your High Priest Bugliosi have given you to swallow without questioning any of it.
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Not everybody who does not agree with your biased, narrow-minded view of the evidence is automatically a conspiracy theorist. To be one, one needs to actually have a conspiracy theory! Or is that already way over your head?
It is true that when you scrutinize the evidence in a way you clearly have never done, you also have to consider the possibility of evidence being manipulated, which in turn would suggest a conspiracy as that is the only alternative for Oswald being the lone gunman. But accepting that there is a possibility that there could have been been a conspiracy is something completely different than claiming there was an actual conspiracy. (Still with me, or is this too complicated for you?).
Your "if you are not with me, you are against me" attitude is childish and without reason. Five year olds argue that way! I fully understand why you would want to color all skeptics as conspiracy theorists, because that makes them easier for you to ridicule, which is of course the true reason why you are here. If you have to deal with a skeptic you actually need to argue the case and we both know that beyond one liners and ridicule you haven't got much.
You'd think that after the most investigated murder of all time with millions of hours spent researching, interviewing and speculating, LNs like you would have come up with a plausible and conclusive scenario that is persuasive enough to win over the skeptics, but instead all you seem to be able to do is regurgitate the same superficial arguments that the spindoctors at the WC and your High Priest Bugliosi have given you to swallow without questioning any of it.
MW--“LNs like you would have come up with a plausible and conclusive scenario that is persuasive enough to win over the skeptics, but instead all you seem to be able to do is regurgitate the same superficial arguments that the spindoctors at the WC and your High Priest Bugliosi have given you to swallow without questioning any of it”
How could anyone mistake you for a Conspiracy Theorist. It could not be more obvious how neutral you are. Nothing but a fantasy storyline is an acceptable understanding.
A lone person firing two shots with two hits is a completely implausible scenario. LHO owns the rifle found on the 6th floor with his fingerprints all over the SN, palmprint on the rifle, prints on the bag used to bring the rifle, no alibi at time of shooting, states he was coming down to see what the commotion was about after the shooting, and then trying to disappear afterwards. Who would suspect that guy?
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MW--“LNs like you would have come up with a plausible and conclusive scenario that is persuasive enough to win over the skeptics, but instead all you seem to be able to do is regurgitate the same superficial arguments that the spindoctors at the WC and your High Priest Bugliosi have given you to swallow without questioning any of it”
How could anyone mistake you for a Conspiracy Theorist. It could not be more obvious how neutral you are. Nothing but a fantasy storyline is an acceptable understanding.
A lone person firing two shots with two hits is a completely implausible scenario. LHO owns the rifle found on the 6th floor with his fingerprints all over the SN, palmprint on the rifle, prints on the bag used to bring the rifle, no alibi at time of shooting, states he was coming down to see what the commotion was about after the shooting, and then trying to disappear afterwards. Who would suspect that guy?
You really have nothing new to offer.
The only thing you have is the same old official story which IMO has too many holes in it to be conclusive and a true representation of what actually happened. It didn't convince most people 60 years ago and it still doesn't convince them today.
Who would suspect that guy?
Suspecting somebody is a completely different thing than proving his actual guilt. Of course Oswald would be a suspect and he actual may even be guilty, but you need conclusive authentic evidence to prove it. And the simple fact of the matter is that you haven't got that. All you've got is a bunch of assumptions and speculation.
How could anyone mistake you for a Conspiracy Theorist. It could not be more obvious how neutral you are.
I am neutral enough to accept the possibility that Oswald was the lone gunman, despite the fact that I do not believe the official narrative for one second. I am also neutral enough to accept most of the evidence as not falsified, despite the fact that some of it could very well have been manipulated or taken out of context.
Now, how about your own neutrality? Do you accept there is a possibility that there could have been a conspiracy before the fact and a cover up after the fact?
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You really have nothing new to offer.
The only thing you have is the same old official story which IMO has too many holes in it to be conclusive and a true representation of what actually happened. It didn't convince most people 60 years ago and it still doesn't convince them today.
Who would suspect that guy?
Suspecting somebody is a completely different thing than proving his actual guilt. Of course Oswald would be a suspect and he actual may even be guilty, but you need conclusive authentic evidence to prove it. And the simple fact of the matter is that you haven't got that. All you've got is a bunch of assumptions and speculation.
That would be enough to hang him. What speculation? His are the only fingerprints found. He owned the rifle. Good bye Lee Harvey.
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That would be enough to hang him. What speculation? His are the only fingerprints found. He owned the rifle. Good bye Lee Harvey.
Stop being so superficial. You can't even provide evidence that puts Oswald on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. And even if Oswald owned that particular rifle in March 1963 (which is a very big "if"), you can not produce a shred of evidence that it was still in his possession on 11/22/63. Again, all you've got are assumptions and you seem to lack the intelligence to even understand that.
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Stop being so superficial. You can't even provide evidence that puts Oswald on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. And even if Oswald owned that particular rifle in March 1963 (which is a very big "if"), you can not produce a shred of evidence that it was still in his possession on 11/22/63. Again, all you've got are assumptions and you seem to lack the intelligence to even understand that.
Fingerprints are evidence. He built the SN. The bag that brought the rifle had his palm print and fingerprints exactly as described in how he held the bag. You are the only one talking about how innocent he is and is beyond doubt.
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Fingerprints are evidence. He built the SN. The bag that brought the rifle had his palm print and fingerprints exactly as described in how he held the bag. You are the only one talking about how innocent he is and is beyond doubt.
Fingerprints are indeed evidence but they are not automatically proof.
Prints found on boxes that Oswald had to handle as part of his job are of very limited evidentiary value. And that's not only my opinion. Wesley Liebeler made exactly that point when discussing the weakness of some of the evidence. The evidentiary value is even further reduced because there were also other prints on the boxes that could not be identified. They could just as easily have been from somebody else.
There was no palm print found on the rifle. The FBI examined the rifle in the night after the shooting and found no prints or even residue of a print that had been lifted. That Day, several days later, produced an evidence card with a palmprint on it and claimed that he had lifted from the rifle is not particularly convincing. The chief forensic officer of the DPD finds a palmprint on the presumed murder rifle (which would be crucial evidence) and then just puts it in his desk. Really?
As far as the bag goes, the preponderance of evidence is against Oswald carrying the bag found at the TSBD on Friday morning. The TSBD bag was made out of materials found and used at the TSBD, but nobody saw Oswald make such a bag. Even worse, the last opportunity Oswald would have had to make the bag was Thursday afternoon. On Friday afternoon the DPD took samples of the TSBD materials and found a perfect match of the cut of the wrapping paper on the machine with that of the bag. This would mean that since Thursday afternoon no wrapping paper was used. Not a single piece during the entire Friday morning. Hardly a likely tale! I don't know how Oswald's prints got on that bag, or if they really did, but I can think of several scenarios. Frazier did not see Oswald having a folded bag with him during the trip to Irving on Thursday and there actually was no reason for Oswald to make that bag. Seven months earlier Oswald is supposed to have carried the rifle on public transport to New Orleans. Whatever container he used at that time, would have sufficed.
This is the problem with the LN "logic"; it never goes beyond superficial and it never looks at the entirety of the available information. As long as it points to Oswald it's so-called "evidence" with no need to dig deeper any maybe find something you don't like.
You are the only one talking about how innocent he is and is beyond doubt.
There you go again. Another assumption that simply isn't true. Ever since I joined this forum I have never stated that Oswald was innocent or that there had been a conspiracy. I challenge you to find one post in which I did!
In the meantime you still haven't explained where Adams and Styles were during 4 minutes after the shots, if they did not go down the stairs immediately. Remember this;
The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.
Do you really think that people just believe you when you make baseless claims without providing any evidence for it?
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Fingerprints are indeed evidence but they are not automatically proof.
Prints found on boxes that Oswald had to handle as part of his job are of very limited evidentiary value.
Let's put this into perspective, yes Oswald did work in the building with hundreds of boxes, but the smaller Rolling Reader boxes which were moved to be a rifle rest were different to every other box on the floor, so whoever moved those boxes for the specific purpose of becoming a rifle rest, must have had knowledge of the boxes on that floor.
So we can conclude that unless some outside assassin happened to find those random specific boxes, the assassin was an employee.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out of the stack and over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else.
Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor.
Latona confirmed that the prints on the Rolling Reader box belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. They have satisfied themselves that the print is on the box. Now, therefore, to recapitulate: You found on this carton 641 the left palmprint and the right index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LATONA. That is correct.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6LmkDHt/CE-641-rolling-reader-box.jpg)
The prints on these Rolling Reader which were oriented down Elm street, were described by Latona as being fresh and Latona who like all the FBI witnesses were very cautious with their testimonies but still said that the prints came from the box being touched within the previous 24 hours.
So in conclusion, it wasn't as far as I know, a job requirement for every employee to touch every one of hundreds of boxes every 24 hours, so the chances that a random box which was used for a specific purpose within the warehouse just happened to be touched by Oswald within the last day is possible but extremely unlikely. And the fact that the orientation of the prints corresponded to being pointed down Elm street instead of some other random direction is also powerful evidence that Oswald rested there as he planned his assassination.
Mr. EISENBERG. That would be the outermost limit that you can testify concerning?
Mr. LATONA. We have, run some tests, and usually a minimum of 24 hours on a material of this kind, depending upon how heavy the sweat was, to try to say within a 24-hour period would be a guess on my part.
Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure I understand your reference to a minimum of 24 hours.
Mr. LATONA. We have conducted tests with various types of materials as to how long it could be before we would not develop a latent print.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes?
Mr. LATONA. Assuming that the same print was left on an object or a series of similar prints were left on an object, and powdering them, say, at intervals of every 4 hours or so, we would fail to develop a latent print of that particular type on that particular surface, say, within a 24-hour period.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that is a maximum of 24 hours?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
And for bonus points, Latona testified that the palm print on the rifle barrel could be completely obliterated by Day's original lift.
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand then that if there is a lifting of this kind, that it may obliterate----
Mr. LATONA. Completely.
Mr. DULLES. The original print?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
JohnM
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Let's put this into perspective, yes Oswald did work in the building with hundreds of boxes, but the smaller Rolling Reader boxes which were moved to be a rifle rest were different to every other box on the floor, so whoever moved those boxes for the specific purpose of becoming a rifle rest, must have had knowledge of the boxes on that floor.
So we can conclude that unless some outside assassin happened to find those random specific boxes, the assassin was an employee.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out of the stack and over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else.
Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor.
The prints on these Rolling Reader were described by Latona as being fresh and Latona who like all the FBI witnesses were very cautious with their testimonies but still said that the prints came from the box being touched within the previous 24 hours.
So in conclusion, it wasn't as far as I know, a job requirement for every employee to touch every one of hundreds of boxes every 24 hours, so the chances that a random box which was used for a specific purpose within the warehouse just happened to be touched by Oswald within the last day is possible but extremely unlikely.
Mr. EISENBERG. That would be the outermost limit that you can testify concerning?
Mr. LATONA. We have, run some tests, and usually a minimum of 24 hours on a material of this kind, depending upon how heavy the sweat was, to try to say within a 24-hour period would be a guess on my part.
Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure I understand your reference to a minimum of 24 hours.
Mr. LATONA. We have conducted tests with various types of materials as to how long it could be before we would not develop a latent print.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes?
Mr. LATONA. Assuming that the same print was left on an object or a series of similar prints were left on an object, and powdering them, say, at intervals of every 4 hours or so, we would fail to develop a latent print of that particular type on that particular surface, say, within a 24-hour period.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that is a maximum of 24 hours?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
And for bonus points, Latona testified that the palm print on the rifle barrel could be completely obliterated by Day's original lift.
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand then that if there is a lifting of this kind, that it may obliterate----
Mr. LATONA. Completely.
Mr. DULLES. The original print?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
JohnM
Let's put this into perspective, yes Oswald did work in the building with hundreds of boxes, but the smaller Rolling Reader boxes which were moved to be a rifle rest were different to every other box on the floor, so whoever moved those boxes for the specific purpose of becoming a rifle rest, must have had knowledge of the boxes on that floor.
So we can conclude that unless some outside assassin happened to find those random specific boxes, the assassin was an employee.
That's just as silly a conclusion as saying; "we can conclude that somebody killed Kennedy". It's meaningless
The prints on these Rolling Reader were described by Latona as being fresh and Latona who like all the FBI witnesses were very cautious with their testimonies but still said that the prints came from the box being touched within the previous 24 hours.
So in conclusion, it wasn't as far as I know, a job requirement for every employee to touch every one of hundreds of boxes every 24 hours, so the chances that a random box which was used for a specific purpose within the warehouse just happened to be touched by Oswald within the last day is possible but extremely unlikely.
It doesn't matter if it was not a job requirement for every employee to touch boxes (hundereds of just one). We know for a fact that the order fillers' job was to touch those boxes. Oswald was an order filler.
so the chances that a random box which was used for a specific purpose within the warehouse just happened to be touched by Oswald within the last day is possible but extremely unlikely.
"is possible but extremely unlikely" = no evidentairy value. Opinions are not evidence.
And for bonus points, Latona testified that the palm print on the rifle barrel could be completely obliterated by Day's original lift.
Since when is "could be" evidence of anything?
So, in conclusion, we have a possibility that anybody could have touched those boxes, we have a possibility (and an opinion that it's unlikely) that an employes who's job it was to touch boxes, actually touched boxes and a "could be", well after the fact (in an equaly possible) c.y.a. action - that's my opinion btw) that it is possible to lift a print completely.
So, yes, let's put it all in perspective; You've got nothing!
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Let's put this into perspective, yes Oswald did work in the building with hundreds of boxes, but the smaller Rolling Reader boxes which were moved to be a rifle rest were different to every other box on the floor, so whoever moved those boxes for the specific purpose of becoming a rifle rest, must have had knowledge of the boxes on that floor.
So we can conclude that unless some outside assassin happened to find those random specific boxes, the assassin was an employee.
That's just as silly a conclusion as saying; "we can conclude that somebody killed Kennedy". It's meaningless
The prints on these Rolling Reader were described by Latona as being fresh and Latona who like all the FBI witnesses were very cautious with their testimonies but still said that the prints came from the box being touched within the previous 24 hours.
So in conclusion, it wasn't as far as I know, a job requirement for every employee to touch every one of hundreds of boxes every 24 hours, so the chances that a random box which was used for a specific purpose within the warehouse just happened to be touched by Oswald within the last day is possible but extremely unlikely.
It doesn't matter if it was not a job requirement for every employee to touch boxes (hundereds of just one). We know for a fact that the order fillers' job was to touch those boxes. Oswald was an order filler.
so the chances that a random box which was used for a specific purpose within the warehouse just happened to be touched by Oswald within the last day is possible but extremely unlikely.
"is possible by extremely unlikely" = no evidentairy value. Opinions are not evidence.
And for bonus points, Latona testified that the palm print on the rifle barrel could be completely obliterated by Day's original lift.
Since when is "could be" evidence of anything?
So, in conclusion, we have a possibility that anybody could have touched those boxes, we have a possibility (and an opinion that it's unlikely) that an employes who's job it was to touch boxes, actually touched boxes and a "could be", well after the fact (in an equaly possible) c.y.a. action - that's my opinion btw) that it is possible to lift a print completely.
So, yes, let's put it all in perspective; You've got nothing!
Hilarious, Oswald was the unluckiest man on the planet.
He just happened to work in the building from which shots were fired from.
He just happened to own the rifle found on the 6th floor.
He just happened to own the prints found in the sniper's nest
He just happened to own the prints found on the rifle
He just happened to own the prints found on the long paper bag.
He just happened to match the close description given over the Police radio at 12:45.
He just happened to own the rifle which exclusively matched the shells found in the Limo.
He just happened to flee the crime scene immediately
He just happened to get out of his cab way past his rooming house
He just happened to admit retrieving his revolver from the rooming house
He just happened to be positively identified by about ten eyewitnesses at the Tippit crime scene
He just happened to be arrested a mile of the Tippit crime scene, and Tippit was the first cop killed by gunfire in Dallas in years
He just happened to own the jacket found in the car park which he was seen entering.
He just happened to own the revolver which exclusively matched the shells found at the Tippit crime scene.
He just happened to pull the trigger on his revolver when fighting the Police.
He just happened to etc etc etc etc etc etc...........
Poor poor Oswald!
JohnM
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Hilarious, Oswald was the unluckiest man on the planet.
He just happened to work in the building from which shots were fired from.
He just happened to own the rifle found on the 6th floor.
He just happened to own the prints found in the sniper's nest
He just happened to own the prints found on the rifle
He just happened to own the prints found on the long paper bag.
He just happened to match the close description given over the Police radio at 12:45.
He just happened to own the rifle which exclusively matched the shells found in the Limo.
He just happened to flee the crime scene immediately
He just happened to get out of his cab way past his rooming house
He just happened to admit retrieving his revolver from the rooming house
He just happened to be positively identified by about ten eyewitnesses at the Tippit crime scene
He just happened to be arrested a mile of the Tippit crime scene, and Tippit was the first cop killed by gunfire in Dallas in years
He just happened to own the jacket found in the car park which he was seen entering.
He just happened to own the revolver which exclusively matched the shells found at the Tippit crime scene.
He just happened to pull the trigger on his revolver when fighting the Police.
He just happened to etc etc etc etc etc etc...........
Poor poor Oswald!
JohnM
And here he goes again.... more superficial assumptions presented as "evidence", but in fact are not supported by the actual facts.
You just can't help yourself, can't you?
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And here he goes again.... more superficial assumptions presented as "evidence", but in fact are not supported by the actual facts.
You just can't help yourself, can't you?
OMG FK'N WOW, All the facts in this case are supported by Evidence, whereas each of your endless list of baseless refutations is based on your paranoid fantasies.
JohnM
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OMG FK'N WOW, All the facts in this case are supported by Evidence, whereas each of your endless list of baseless refutations is based on your paranoid fantasies.
JohnM
Change the record, John. This oldie is too worn out to play. It's kinda funny, but you always do this whenever your arguments have failed.
It is superficial for you all the way and, of course, it proves the point I previously made.
...... all you seem to be able to do is regurgitate the same superficial arguments that the spindoctors at the WC and your High Priest Bugliosi have given you to swallow without questioning any of it.
:D
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OMG FK'N WOW, All the facts in this case are supported by Evidence, whereas each of your endless list of baseless refutations is based on your paranoid fantasies.
JohnM
All the facts in this case are supported by Evidence
Ok, let's put this to the test;
He just happened to own the prints found on the rifle
What exactly is the evidence for prints being found on the rifle? Be precise....
He just happened to match the close description given over the Police radio at 12:45.
What is the evidence for this, or is it just an opinion?
He just happened to own the rifle which exclusively matched the shells found in the Limo.
What is the evidence that Oswald owned, or even had in his possesion, the rifle found at the TSBD on 11/22/63?
And what evidence is there that the shells (actually fragments of shells) were indeed found in the limo?
He just happened to flee the crime scene immediately
What is the evidence that Oswald fled the crime scene instead of just leaving the building?
He just happened to own the jacket found in the car park which he was seen entering.
What is the evidence that the gray jacket, now in evidence and confirmed to belong to Oswald, was the white jacket found in the car park?
If what you claim is true, it should be easy for you to provide the evidence for all these so-called "facts". Go on then... have at it.
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All the facts in this case are supported by Evidence
Ok, let's put this to the test;
He just happened to own the prints found on the rifle
What exactly is the evidence for prints being found on the rifle? Be precise....
He just happened to match the close description given over the Police radio at 12:45.
What is the evidence for this, or is it just an opinion?
He just happened to own the rifle which exclusively matched the shells found in the Limo.
What is the evidence that Oswald owned, or even had in his possesion, the rifle found at the TSBD on 11/22/63?
And what evidence is there that the shells (actually fragments of shells) were indeed found in the limo?
He just happened to flee the crime scene immediately
What is the evidence that Oswald fled the crime scene instead of just leaving the building?
He just happened to own the jacket found in the car park which he was seen entering.
What is the evidence that the gray jacket, now in evidence and confirmed to belong to Oswald, was the white jacket found in the car park?
If what you claim is true, it should be easy for you to provide the evidence for all these so-called "facts". Go on then... have at it.
He just happened to own the prints found on the rifle
What exactly is the evidence for prints being found on the rifle? Be precise....
Besides the Palmprint taken from the actual rifle as confirmed by the FBI, we have Day's testimony;
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p1g0Djz/fbi-palm-rifle-match.gif)
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
He just happened to match the close description given over the Police radio at 12:45.
What is the evidence for this, or is it just an opinion?
Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/dpdtapes/index.htm
He just happened to own the rifle which exclusively matched the shells found in the Limo.
What is the evidence that Oswald owned....
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0h2qrXh/WCReport-0072b.jpg)
And what evidence is there that the shells (actually fragments of shells) were indeed found in the limo?
Actually fragments of bullet's.
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d37c280f86797434b30965f31252653f-c)
He just happened to own the jacket found in the car park which he was seen entering.
What is the evidence that the gray jacket, now in evidence and confirmed to belong to Oswald, was the white jacket found in the car park?
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNXZWBmy/Osw-ald-Jacket-Initialed-zps81cc2f7f.jpg)
Btw, this is the evidence and I'm not going down any more paranoid rabbit holes!
JohnM
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Fingerprints are indeed evidence but they are not automatically proof.
Prints found on boxes that Oswald had to handle as part of his job are of very limited evidentiary value. And that's not only my opinion. Wesley Liebeler made exactly that point when discussing the weakness of some of the evidence. The evidentiary value is even further reduced because there were also other prints on the boxes that could not be identified. They could just as easily have been from somebody else.
There was no palm print found on the rifle. The FBI examined the rifle in the night after the shooting and found no prints or even residue of a print that had been lifted. That Day, several days later, produced an evidence card with a palmprint on it and claimed that he had lifted from the rifle is not particularly convincing. The chief forensic officer of the DPD finds a palmprint on the presumed murder rifle (which would be crucial evidence) and then just puts it in his desk. Really?
As far as the bag goes, the preponderance of evidence is against Oswald carrying the bag found at the TSBD on Friday morning. The TSBD bag was made out of materials found and used at the TSBD, but nobody saw Oswald make such a bag. Even worse, the last opportunity Oswald would have had to make the bag was Thursday afternoon. On Friday afternoon the DPD took samples of the TSBD materials and found a perfect match of the cut of the wrapping paper on the machine with that of the bag. This would mean that since Thursday afternoon no wrapping paper was used. Not a single piece during the entire Friday morning. Hardly a likely tale! I don't know how Oswald's prints got on that bag, or if they really did, but I can think of several scenarios. Frazier did not see Oswald having a folded bag with him during the trip to Irving on Thursday and there actually was no reason for Oswald to make that bag. Seven months earlier Oswald is supposed to have carried the rifle on public transport to New Orleans. Whatever container he used at that time, would have sufficed.
This is the problem with the LN "logic"; it never goes beyond superficial and it never looks at the entirety of the available information. As long as it points to Oswald it's so-called "evidence" with no need to dig deeper any maybe find something you don't like.
You are the only one talking about how innocent he is and is beyond doubt.
There you go again. Another assumption that simply isn't true. Ever since I joined this forum I have never stated that Oswald was innocent or that there had been a conspiracy. I challenge you to find one post in which I did!
In the meantime you still haven't explained where Adams and Styles were during 4 minutes after the shots, if they did not go down the stairs immediately. Remember this;
Do you really think that people just believe you when you make baseless claims without providing any evidence for it?
MW--“In the meantime you still haven't explained where Adams and Styles were during 4 minutes after the shots, if they did not go down the stairs immediately.”
MW--“Do you really think that people just believe you when you make baseless claims without providing any evidence for it?”
Unbelievable, do you really not understand? Where were they for four minutes? They were on the fourth floor. Your timeline is totally based on Adams and Styles leaving the fourth floor without a shred of proof, “immediately” so they thought. They did not. You went as far as to create a cop and place him into your timeline a cop who does not even exist except in your imagination. And somehow in this delusion you think the rest of us are fabricating evidence? You fabricate a cop into a story and the rest of us do not know what proof is? In constantly contradicting yourself in your own posts you do not even realize how ridiculous it is to even place the cop there at that time.
You have Adams and Styles emerging from the back of the TSBD before Truly and Baker have reached the 6th floor. Then to really stagger the imagination you place a cop there who would have absolutely no way of knowing about a shot from the TSBD because that has yet to be determined. Let alone stopping secretaries running to where they think the action is. What is his reason? The whole of your timeline does not even begin to explain the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD.
Besides your delusionary timeline, now you are presenting yourself as the leading expert on what constitutes evidence? The guy who creates an imaginary cop for a fantasy timeline is telling everyone else what is important? What is apparent is you have no idea other than your opinion and a keyboard to pass it on with, of what would constitute proof. You haven’t even figured out you are just a conspiracist, not some pretend unbiased observer. That is just laughable. There is no need trying to deceive us, maybe stop deceiving yourself. Nothing about your posts would ever be misconstrued as unbiased.
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Besides the Palmprint taken from the actual rifle as confirmed by the FBI, we have Day's testimony;
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p1g0Djz/fbi-palm-rifle-match.gif)
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/dpdtapes/index.htm
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0h2qrXh/WCReport-0072b.jpg)
Actually fragments of bullet's.
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d37c280f86797434b30965f31252653f-c)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNXZWBmy/Osw-ald-Jacket-Initialed-zps81cc2f7f.jpg)
Btw, this is the evidence and I'm not going down any more paranoid rabbit holes!
JohnM
Btw, this is the evidence and I'm not going down any more paranoid rabbit holes!
Translation, beyond a couple of meaningless gifs, I really haven't got anything to share, so I don't want to talk about it anymore.
What a total admission of complete incompetence!
But I'll deal with the few questions you did try to answer.
Besides the Palmprint taken from the actual rifle as confirmed by the FBI, we have Day's testimony;
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p1g0Djz/fbi-palm-rifle-match.gif)
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
So it's "cop said so" after the FBI initially found no prints on the rifle. Wow....
Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.
That's in no way a discription of Oswald in any shape or form.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0h2qrXh/WCReport-0072b.jpg)
All sorts of problems with these "documents" but even if it is evidence that Oswald ordered a rifle, it's in no way evidence that he had the rifle found at the TSBD in his possession on 11/22/63
Actually fragments of bullet's.
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d37c280f86797434b30965f31252653f-c)
Photographs of bullet fragments do not provide evidence that those fragments were actually found in the limo. The actual facts are that Frazier and his team were given those fragments when they arrived at the Secret Service garage to examine the limo, as a crime scene. The fragments were never photographed in situ and Frazier just had to accept the word of two men who had earlier contaminated a crime scene.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNXZWBmy/Osw-ald-Jacket-Initialed-zps81cc2f7f.jpg)
Hilarious. A photograph of CE162, which is Oswald's gray jacket, with initials of officers who were not involved in the chain of custody isn't proof that Oswald's jacket was really found at the car park.
The chain of custody for the "white jacket" found under a car is that some unidentified officer pointed out the jacket to Personnel officer Captain Westbrook, who wasn't really interested in it and gave it to yet another unidentified officer.
On DPD radio the jacket was described as being white. Then, some two hours later, that same Captain Westbrook turns up at the evidence room of the DPD to deliver the gray jacket, with initials of officer that were written in the jacket in the personnel room, just moments earlier. There is no explanation for how Westbrook got the jacket again.
And you call this evidence?
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MW--“In the meantime you still haven't explained where Adams and Styles were during 4 minutes after the shots, if they did not go down the stairs immediately.”
MW--“Do you really think that people just believe you when you make baseless claims without providing any evidence for it?”
Unbelievable, do you really not understand? Where were they for four minutes? They were on the fourth floor. Your timeline is totally based on Adams and Styles leaving the fourth floor without a shred of proof, “immediately” so they thought. They did not. You went as far as to create a cop and place him into your timeline a cop who does not even exist except in your imagination. And somehow in this delusion you think the rest of us are fabricating evidence? You fabricate a cop into a story and the rest of us do not know what proof is? In constantly contradicting yourself in your own posts you do not even realize how ridiculous it is to even place the cop there at that time.
You have Adams and Styles emerging from the back of the TSBD before Truly and Baker have reached the 6th floor. Then to really stagger the imagination you place a cop there who would have absolutely no way of knowing about a shot from the TSBD because that has yet to be determined. Let alone stopping secretaries running to where they think the action is. What is his reason? The whole of your timeline does not even begin to explain the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD.
Besides your delusionary timeline, now you are presenting yourself as the leading expert on what constitutes evidence? The guy who creates an imaginary cop for a fantasy timeline is telling everyone else what is important? What is apparent is you have no idea other than your opinion and a keyboard to pass it on with, of what would constitute proof. You haven’t even figured out you are just a conspiracist, not some pretend unbiased observer. That is just laughable. There is no need trying to deceive us, maybe stop deceiving yourself. Nothing about your posts would ever be misconstrued as unbiased.
Spot on Jack, the amount of evidence that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest and snuck down the stairs completely overwhelms the hole ridden recollection of Adams, yet keen CT's in their nonsensical defense of Oswald will stoop to the very depths of absurdity in their support of Adams. Go figure?
JohnM
-
Btw, this is the evidence and I'm not going down any more paranoid rabbit holes!
Translation, beyond a couple of meaningless gifs, I really haven't got anything to share, so I don't want to talk about it anymore.
What a total admission of complete incompetence!
But I'll deal with the few questions you did try to answer.
Besides the Palmprint taken from the actual rifle as confirmed by the FBI, we have Day's testimony;
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p1g0Djz/fbi-palm-rifle-match.gif)
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
So it's "cop said so" after the FBI initially found no prints on the rifle. Wow....
Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.
That's in no way a discription of Oswald in any shape or form.
All sorts of problems with these "documents" but even if it is evidence that Oswald ordered a rifle, it's in no way evidence that he had the rifle found at the TSBD in his possession on 11/22/63
Photographs of bullet fragments do not provide evidence that those fragments were actually found in the limo. The actual facts are that Frazier and his team were given those fragments when they arrived at the Secret Service garage to examine the limo, as a crime scene. The fragments were never photographed in situ and Frazier just had to accept the word of two men who had earlier contaminated a crime scene.
Hilarious. A photograph of CE162, which is Oswald's gray jacket, with initials of officers who were not involved in the chain of custody isn't proof that Oswald's jacket was really found at the car park.
The chain of custody for the "white jacket" found under a car is that some unidentified officer pointed out the jacket to Personnel officer Captain Westbrook, who wasn't really interested in it and gave it to yet another unidentified officer.
On DPD radio the jacket was described as being white. Then, some two hours later, that same Captain Westbrook turns up at the evidence room of the DPD to deliver the gray jacket, with initials of officer that were written in the jacket in the personnel room, just moments earlier. There is no explanation for how Westbrook got the jacket again.
And you call this evidence?
So, in your opinion virtually every piece of evidence against Oswald is manufactured, faked, altered or a product of lies? Far Out, Brussel sprout!
And do you honestly believe that based on these CT inspired Internet Records, that future generations will favour your idea of an impossible MASSIVE conspiracy against the totally rational conclusions based on a plethora of Scientific Experts of the WC and the HSCA? Really?
JohnM
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MW--“In the meantime you still haven't explained where Adams and Styles were during 4 minutes after the shots, if they did not go down the stairs immediately.”
MW--“Do you really think that people just believe you when you make baseless claims without providing any evidence for it?”
Unbelievable, do you really not understand? Where were they for four minutes? They were on the fourth floor. Your timeline is totally based on Adams and Styles leaving the fourth floor without a shred of proof, “immediately” so they thought. They did not. You went as far as to create a cop and place him into your timeline a cop who does not even exist except in your imagination. And somehow in this delusion you think the rest of us are fabricating evidence? You fabricate a cop into a story and the rest of us do not know what proof is? In constantly contradicting yourself in your own posts you do not even realize how ridiculous it is to even place the cop there at that time.
You have Adams and Styles emerging from the back of the TSBD before Truly and Baker have reached the 6th floor. Then to really stagger the imagination you place a cop there who would have absolutely no way of knowing about a shot from the TSBD because that has yet to be determined. Let alone stopping secretaries running to where they think the action is. What is his reason? The whole of your timeline does not even begin to explain the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD.
Besides your delusionary timeline, now you are presenting yourself as the leading expert on what constitutes evidence? The guy who creates an imaginary cop for a fantasy timeline is telling everyone else what is important? What is apparent is you have no idea other than your opinion and a keyboard to pass it on with, of what would constitute proof. You haven’t even figured out you are just a conspiracist, not some pretend unbiased observer. That is just laughable. There is no need trying to deceive us, maybe stop deceiving yourself. Nothing about your posts would ever be misconstrued as unbiased.
Pathetic. I did not create a cop. Lovelady and Shelley confirmed in their testimony there were cops in the area west of the TSBD before the order to seal off the TSNB was given.
You have Adams and Styles emerging from the back of the TSBD before Truly and Baker have reached the 6th floor.
This only shows how confused you are. I have Adams and Styles leaving the stairs on the first floor before Truly and Baker got to the stairs on the first floor. They likely missed eachother by seconds.
Then to really stagger the imagination you place a cop there who would have absolutely no way of knowing about a shot from the TSBD because that has yet to be determined.
Since when does a cop have to know where the shots came from before telling somebody to go back to where they came from?
The whole of your timeline does not even begin to explain the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD.
I don't even know what that means. Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before the building was sealed off, so who cares about the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD?
There is no need trying to deceive us, maybe stop deceiving yourself. Nothing about your posts would ever be misconstrued as unbiased.
A classic comment from a fanatical zealot like cult member. I've seen too many fanatical zealots in my life to even try to explain anything to them.
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Spot on Jack, the amount of evidence that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest and snuck down the stairs completely overwhelms the hole ridden recollection of Adams, yet keen CT's in their nonsensical defense of Oswald will stoop to the very depths of absurdity in their support of Adams. Go figure?
JohnM
Fanatical zealots agreeing with eachother.... WOW.
the amount of evidence that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest and snuck down the stairs completely overwhelms the hole ridden recollection of Adams,
What evidence would that be?
-
Fanatical zealots agreeing with eachother.... WOW.
the amount of evidence that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest and snuck down the stairs completely overwhelms the hole ridden recollection of Adams,
What evidence would that be?
What evidence would that be?
You can't be serious, you know the evidence!
The WC and The HSCA a decade and half later concluded that Oswald shot Kennedy from the 6th floor, and Baker and Truly ran into Oswald on the 2nd floor! Do the Math!
JohnM
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Spot on Jack, the amount of evidence that Oswald was in the Sniper's Nest and snuck down the stairs completely overwhelms the hole ridden recollection of Adams, yet keen CT's in their nonsensical defense of Oswald will stoop to the very depths of absurdity in their support of Adams. Go figure?
JohnM
Absurdity is exactly right. Who saw him handling the SN Boxes that day as part of his job? A whole floor full of people and no one did. They want to pretend LHO was not there but the simple fact his fingerprints are the common denominator in all the evidence and directly implicates him. The rifle was in his possession. His fingerprints were directly on the SN rifle rest, rifle and bag. Then he cannot tell the same story twice as to his whereabouts during the assassination. Finally, he admits he was coming down the stairs. He was seen walking into the lunchroom. Your list is excellent, it in itself tells the story and leaves no doubt. The fingerprints on the SN boxes have a limited time span.
Now this is the funny part with conspiracy people. Martin will want to ask a question he feels deflects the conversation from their weak, no evidence argument.
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You can't be serious, you know the evidence!
The WC and The HSCA a decade and half later concluded that Oswald shot Kennedy from the 6th floor, and Baker and Truly ran into Oswald on the 2nd floor! Do the Math!
JohnM
So, you can't tell me what the evidence is? Noted
Baker and Truly ran into Oswald on the 2nd floor! Do the Math!
What math is there to do? Nobody disputes that Baker ran into Oswald on the 2nd floor.
But how does that prove he was in the sniper's nest when the shots were fired and/or came down the stairs within 75 seconds after the last shot?
You are talking gibberish.
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Pathetic. I did not create a cop. Lovelady and Shelley confirmed in their testimony there were cops in the area west of the TSBD before the order to seal off the TSNB was given.
You have Adams and Styles emerging from the back of the TSBD before Truly and Baker have reached the 6th floor.
This only shows how confused you are. I have Adams and Styles leaving the stairs on the first floor before Truly and Baker got to the stairs on the first floor. They likely missed eachother by seconds.
Then to really stagger the imagination you place a cop there who would have absolutely no way of knowing about a shot from the TSBD because that has yet to be determined.
Since when does a cop have to know where the shots came from before telling somebody to go back to where they came from?
The whole of your timeline does not even begin to explain the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD.
I don't even know what that means. Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before the building was sealed off, so who cares about the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD?
There is no need trying to deceive us, maybe stop deceiving yourself. Nothing about your posts would ever be misconstrued as unbiased.
A classic comment from a fanatical zealot like cult member. I've seen too many fanatical zealots in my life to even try to explain anything to them.
"there were cops in the area west of the TSBD before the order to seal off the TSNB was given.
Will you ever stop contradicting yourself. You have the cop telling Adams and Styles apparently the only two people involved your fantasy lockdown. Being West of the building was the grassy knoll.
"I don't even know what that means. Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before the building was sealed off, so who cares about the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD?"
This seems about par. That is right, you do not know what it means and no amount of explaining seems to be able to reach you. Maybe that is because you are so unbiased in assessing evidence.
You do not seem to even understand that the front was locked down at 12:37. The back at 12:36. Those are different times. They were turned back by the cops Harkness placed there at 12:36.
-
Absurdity is exactly right. Who saw him handling the SN Boxes that day as part of his job? A whole floor full of people and no one did. They want to pretend LHO was not there but the simple fact his fingerprints are the common denominator in all the evidence and directly implicates him. The rifle was in his possession. His fingerprints were directly on the SN rifle rest, rifle and bag. Then he cannot tell the same story twice as to his whereabouts during the assassination. Finally, he admits he was coming down the stairs. He was seen walking into the lunchroom. Your list is excellent, it in itself tells the story and leaves no doubt. The fingerprints on the SN boxes have a limited time span.
Now this is the funny part with conspiracy people. Martin will want to ask a question he feels deflects the conversation from their weak, no evidence argument.
Who saw him handling the SN Boxes that day as part of his job?
Nobody needs to see him. His prints are on the boxes (if the "evidence" is to be believed) so he must have handled them.
A whole floor full of people and no one did.
You are losing me quickly
They want to pretend LHO was not there but the simple fact his fingerprints are the common denominator in all the evidence and directly implicates him.
What is this madness? Of course Oswald was there. He was seen on the 6th floor before the floor laying crew went down. But fingerprints on boxes an order filler has to handle as part of his job do not implicate him!
The rifle was in his possession.
Really? Are you just making this up or do you have actual evidence to back up this bold claim. If you have, please present it and I will gladly change my mind.
Finally, he admits he was coming down the stairs.
Says who?
He was seen walking into the lunchroom.
Actually, no he wasn't. But even if he was, if he was trying to leave the TSBD as quickly as possible, why would he even had stayed in the lunchroom, when he could just as easily have walked through the 2nd floor office space and leave the building?
Your list is excellent, it in itself tells the story and leaves no doubt. The fingerprints on the SN boxes have a limited time span.
His list is already debunked, but it's no surprise that you don't understand that.
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Your list is excellent, it in itself tells the story and leaves no doubt. The fingerprints on the SN boxes have a limited time span.
His list is already debunked, but it's no surprise that you don't understand that.
:D
Debunked by who, you? LOL!
JohnM
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Who saw him handling the SN Boxes that day as part of his job?
Nobody needs to see him. His prints are on the boxes (if the "evidence" is to be believed) so he must have handled them.
A whole floor full of people and no one did.
You are losing me quickly
They want to pretend LHO was not there but the simple fact his fingerprints are the common denominator in all the evidence and directly implicates him.
What is this madness? Of course Oswald was there. He was seen on the 6th floor before the floor laying crew went down. But fingerprints on boxes an order filler has to handle as part of his job do not implicate him!
The rifle was in his possession.
Really? Are you just making this up or do you have actual evidence to back up this bold claim. If you have, please present it and I will gladly change my mind.
Finally, he admits he was coming down the stairs.
Says who?
He was seen walking into the lunchroom.
Actually, no he wasn't. But even if he was, if he was trying to leave the TSBD as quickly as possible, why would he even had stayed in the lunchroom, when he could just as easily have walked through the 2nd floor office space and leave the building?
Your list is excellent, it in itself tells the story and leaves no doubt. The fingerprints on the SN boxes have a limited time span.
His list is already debunked, but it's no surprise that you don't understand that.
John presents a list of facts. You present a list of meaningless questions. Pretty typical of a conspiracist. Just a pretense of knowledge.
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"there were cops in the area west of the TSBD before the order to seal off the TSNB was given.
Will you ever stop contradicting yourself. You have the cop telling Adams and Styles apparently the only two people involved your fantasy lockdown. Being West of the building was the grassy knoll.
"I don't even know what that means. Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before the building was sealed off, so who cares about the statements and movements of the people actively locking down the TSBD?"
This seems about par. That is right, you do not know what it means and no amount of explaining seems to be able to reach you. Maybe that is because you are so unbiased in assessing evidence.
You do not seem to even understand that the front was locked down at 12:37. The back at 12:36. Those are different times. They were turned back by the cops Harkness placed there at 12:36.
"there were cops in the area west of the TSBD before the order to seal off the TSNB was given.
Will you ever stop contradicting yourself. You have the cop telling Adams and Styles apparently the only two people involved your fantasy lockdown. Being West of the building was the grassy knoll.
You could just as easily be talking Chinese. You are not making any kind of sense. West of the building was a parking space and railroad tracks. The grassy knoll was much further away. You clearly have never been to the scene of the crime!
This seems about par. That is right, you do not know what it means and no amount of explaining seems to be able to reach you. Maybe that is because you are so unbiased in assessing evidence.
You do not seem to even understand that the front was locked down at 12:37. The back at 12:36. Those are different times. They were turned back by the cops Harkness placed there at 12:36.
Can you be more stupid than this? Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before it was sealed off. If it was sealed of at 12:37, it means that Styles entered the building prior to 12:37.
You, however claim that Adams and Styles were stopped by an officer at the back of the building at 12:36 and were told to re-enter.
You don't even understand you've just destroyed your own argument. It's hilarious!
-
:D
Debunked by who, you? LOL!
JohnM
I didn't expect you to see it that way. That's what you get with fanatical zealots...
It's not really my problem that you are unwilling to consider the actual evidence honestly.
Did you really think that I was under the impression that you would have the personality and the capacity to admit that you were wrong? Not for a second, mate!
It's your biggest mistake and weakness to think you are always right about everything, when in fact somebody who feels the need to tell the world that he never fails is really a demonstation a massive amount of insecurity and weakness. People who are really confident and correct in their arguments and logic don't have the need to tell the world just how brilliant they are. They just let their logic and arguments speak for themselves. Poor Johnny.....
-
John presents a list of facts. You present a list of meaningless questions. Pretty typical of a conspiracist. Just a pretense of knowledge.
Questions are never meaningless, except perhaps to those who can not answer them.
If your and John's fairytale is true, you should be able to easily answer the questions asked, right? So why don't you?
-
You could just as easily be talking Chinese. You are not making any kind of sense. West of the building was a parking space and railroad tracks. The grassy knoll was much further away. You clearly have never been to the scene of the crime!
This seems about par. That is right, you do not know what it means and no amount of explaining seems to be able to reach you. Maybe that is because you are so unbiased in assessing evidence.
You do not seem to even understand that the front was locked down at 12:37. The back at 12:36. Those are different times. They were turned back by the cops Harkness placed there at 12:36.
Can you be more stupid than this? Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before it was sealed off. If it was sealed of at 12:37, it means that Styles entered the building prior to 12:37.
You, however claim that Adams and Styles were stopped by and officer at the back of the building at 12:36 and were told to re-enter.
You don't even understand you've just destroyed your own argument. It's hilarious!
How about explain the argument? Make sure you use your timeline. Give up on it? You know with your imaginary cop?
Apparently, you did not know that Adams and Styles in their statements stated they were told by a cop to go back at 12:36. You think they just went back on their own. Adams was stopped before she reentered the building.
-
Questions are never meaningless, except perhaps to those who can not answer them.
If your and John's fairytale is true, you should be able to easily answer the questions asked, right? So why don't you?
Sure they are. Absolutely meaningless.
They have been answered. Over and Over and Over again.
-
How about explain the argument? Make sure you use your timeline. Give up on it? You know with your imaginary cop?
Apparently, you did not know that Adams and Styles in their statements stated they were told by a cop to go back at 12:36. You think they just went back on their own. Adams was stopped before she reentered the building.
How about explain the argument?
Explain what argument?
You know with your imaginary cop?
There is no imaginary cop. There is a fool who thinks there is an imaginary cop.
Apparently, you did not know that Adams and Styles in their statements stated they were told by a cop to go back at 12:36
Well I do know that they never made any such statement. You just made it up. But, by all means, prove me wrong and show me where they said that?
You think they just went back on their own.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean
Adams was stopped before she reentered the building.
Indeed, but Styles wasn't, which means that she re-entered the building before 12:37!
-
Sure they are. Absolutely meaningless.
They have been answered. Over and Over and Over again.
You just can't answer them again, right? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Don't you understand just how pathetic you come across?
-
How about explain the argument?
Explain what argument?
You know with your imaginary cop?
There is no imaginary cop. There is a fool who thinks there is an imaginary cop.
Apparently, you did not know that Adams and Styles in their statements stated they were told by a cop to go back at 12:36
Well I do know that they never made any such statement. You just made it up. But, by all means, prove me wrong and show me where they said that?
You think they just went back on their own.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean
Adams was stopped before she reentered the building.
Indeed, but Styles wasn't, which means that she re-entered the building before 12:37!
Typical, nothing to say or add but this useless tripe. Just a second, no, I read it again and sure enough not one thing worth remembering.
--------------------------
Then: MW--”You don't even understand you've just destroyed your own argument.”
Now: MW-”Explain what argument?”
Really? Completely unable to track a simple thought from one post to the next. Anything to ask a question. It is not a good place for you to be, trying to hide behind ignorance.
The only question you should be asking is would the rest of us help you understand the assassination. I know John and myself have been trying to help you, it would be easier if we were explaining it to a box of rocks.
In all your time here playing the role of the fool, have you ever added one piece of information that helps understand what transpired. Not one I am aware of. Just asking meaningless questions and claiming no one will answer them. That is what is truly pathetic. You obviously cannot stop waffling in between thoughts and contradicting yourself to figure it out on your own.
JN--"Adams was stopped before she reentered the building."
MW--"Indeed, but Styles wasn't, which means that she re-entered the building before 12:37!"
Which proves what Sawyer stated that he locked down the front at 12:37. They walked from the back after being told to go back by Sgt Harkness and his men at 12:36 to return to the front.
----------------------------------------------
MW--”You just can't answer them again, right?”
No, it just means you need a babysitter to hold your hand and dumb it down for you, but even that is not helping. I don’t know how to make it simpler. Whatever can be done?
Here is a question for you. How can this be worded to get you past your own ignorance?
Having an imaginary cop in your timeline is over now?
-
Typical, nothing to say or add but this useless tripe. Just a second, no, I read it again and sure enough not one thing worth remembering.
--------------------------
Then: MW--”You don't even understand you've just destroyed your own argument.”
Now: MW-”Explain what argument?”
Really? Completely unable to track a simple thought from one post to the next. Anything to ask a question. It is not a good place for you to be, trying to hide behind ignorance.
The only question you should be asking is would the rest of us help you understand the assassination. I know John and myself have been trying to help you, it would be easier if we were explaining it to a box of rocks.
In all your time here playing the role of the fool, have you ever added one piece of information that helps understand what transpired. Not one I am aware of. Just asking meaningless questions and claiming no one will answer them. That is what is truly pathetic. You obviously cannot stop waffling in between thoughts and contradicting yourself to figure it out on your own.
JN--"Adams was stopped before she reentered the building."
MW--"Indeed, but Styles wasn't, which means that she re-entered the building before 12:37!"
Which proves what Sawyer stated that he locked down the front at 12:37. They walked from the back after being told to go back by Sgt Harkness and his men at 12:36 to return to the front.
----------------------------------------------
MW--”You just can't answer them again, right?”
No, it just means you need a babysitter to hold your hand and dumb it down for you, but even that is not helping. I don’t know how to make it simpler. Whatever can be done?
Here is a question for you. How can this be worded to get you past your own ignorance?
Having an imaginary cop in your timeline is over now?
I'm sorry, did you just say something? Oh yeah, I see you have continued to ignore, misrepresent or dismiss completely what I have been telling you.
Evasive, making stuff up, not being able to present a shred of evidence for any of your bogus claims and a total inability to have a normal discussion..... and let's not forget making a total fool of yourself.
You could have at least tried to be somewhat original in your little ad hom attack instead of merely projecting, but it seems even that is too much to expect from you.
You have claimed (without evidence) that Adams and Styles stayed at the 4th floor for four minutes after the shots, despite the fact that Adams and Garner contradict that, but your main idiotic claim is that Harkness sealed of the back of the TSBD at 12:36 and was the officer who told Adams and Styles to go back in. In doing so, you completely ignore the fact that Shelley and Lovelady confirm they saw police officers running to the area west of the building and checking cars when they got there about two minutes after the shots. Obviously, you offer not a shred of evidence for the alleged Harkness/Adams/Styles encounter, because it does not exist. But even worse, we know that Styles re-entered the building at the front entrance before it was locked down at 12:37.
So, what you want the readers of this forum to believe (again without offering any evidence) is that Harkness, at the back of the building, told the women to return to the building, and that they did not simply turn around and went back by way of the loading dock, but instead decided to walk/run (in high heels) three sides of the building to enter at the front entrance, and did so within less than a minute. Really? You don't understand just how crazy that claim is?
This "discussion" with you is utterly pathetic and not worth to waste anymore time on, but by all means keep on trolling and provoke massive laughter.
-
Bump for David Von Pein.
After a few pages of time wasting with a guy who makes up stuff as he goes along and makes wild claims for which he can not provide a shred of evidence, I was wondering if you cared to resume our conversation of two days ago.
This was my recent post in that conversation.
Well, Martin, it sure would be ideal if I could offer up a photo or a film of Oswald shooting Kennedy. And it would be equally as handy if I could offer up a sixth-floor witness who happened to see Lee Oswald as he was pulling the trigger. But, unfortunately, Oswald got extremely lucky to have the entire sixth floor to himself for that brief period of time it took him to kill the President. So what else is there except a certain amount of "inference" and "guesswork" to be done when it comes to what you want me to "prove"? There are no sixth-floor witnesses....period.
But what we DO have are the things Oswald left behind --- HIS rifle, HIS prints at the exact spot where JFK's assassin was located (i.e., deep within the Sniper's Nest), and the EMPTY 38-inch paper bag with HIS prints on it.
And there's also the fact that Oswald had no provable alibi for the exact time of the assassination. (Is there any other Depository employee who can be placed in that "No Alibi" category? I doubt that there is.)
Therefore, why on Earth shouldn't I be pointing a finger of guilt at Lee Harvey Oswald, the man to whom all of the physical evidence leads?
Should I just IGNORE all of that evidence or pretend it's all been "planted" there to frame an innocent Oswald? Sorry, but that idea is beyond silly and foolish (IMHO).
Well, Martin, it sure would be ideal if I could offer up a photo or a film of Oswald shooting Kennedy. And it would be equally as handy if I could offer up a sixth-floor witness who happened to see Lee Oswald as he was pulling the trigger. But, unfortunately, Oswald got extremely lucky to have the entire sixth floor to himself for that brief period of time it took him to kill the President. So what else is there except a certain amount of "inference" and "guesswork" to be done when it comes to what you want me to "prove"? There are no sixth-floor witnesses....period.
So, you agree there is no real direct evidence that places Oswald on the 6th floor when the shots were fired? That's progress.
But what we DO have are the things Oswald left behind --- HIS rifle, HIS prints at the exact spot where JFK's assassin was located (i.e., deep within the Sniper's Nest), and the EMPTY 38-inch paper bag with HIS prints on it.
And how exactly do you know that it was Oswald who left those things behind? You talk about "his rifle" but even if he did purchase it and even if he was photographed with it, in late March 1963, how do you know that particular rifle was still in his possession on 11/22/63 for him to leave behind? As far as "his prints at the exact spot..." goes, the evidentiary value of prints found of an employee who's job it was to open and move boxes on that particular floor is pretty low. The "empty 38-inch paper bag" is IMO a somewhat mysterious and contentious item. That bag would have had to be made at the TSBD, yet nobody saw Oswald ever near or operating the wrapping machine. Frazier did not see Oswald carry a paper bag to Irving on Thursday and he denies to this day that the bag found at the TSBD was not the bag he had seen Oswald carry on Friday morning. I can't explain how Oswald's print got on that bag, but I do have several theories about it. Theories, however, are not evidence.
To conclude that Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired based on these three points is like building a house on quicksand. I won't go into the issue of the rifle purchase at this point, but that's another pandora's box.
And there's also the fact that Oswald had no provable alibi for the exact time of the assassination. (Is there any other Depository employee who can be placed in that "No Alibi" category? I doubt that there is.)
As we don't have a verbatim record of what Oswald actually said to his interrogators we will never know for sure if Oswald had a provable alibi or not. The summary reports by the interrogators, written days later, simply do not provide sufficient information to make any kind of sound determination (IMO). Besides, not having an alibi doesn't automatically make somebody guilty!
Therefore, why on Earth shouldn't I be pointing a finger of guilt at Lee Harvey Oswald, the man to whom all of the physical evidence leads?
I do agree that what scant physical evidence there is can indeed be linked to Oswald, however, we don't know if there was other evidence pointing in another direction as well or not. We have to rely totally on what the WC provided and they, in turn, for a large part had to rely on what Hoover's FBI provided to them. Over the years it has become very clear that there are all sorts of evidentiary problems with the physical evidence that we, most likely, will never be able to resolve.
A few examples;
There is no chain of custody for C399 before it reached the FBI lab in Washington. O.V. Wright denies the bullet now in evidence is the bullet he handled. In his deposition, Tomlinson was never shown C399 and asked to identify it. And then there is FBI agent Odum who denies having ever shown C399 to Tomlinson and Wright in April 1964, despite what Shanklin wrote in his airtel.
Then there are the bullet fragments that were allegedly found in the limo. We will never know for certain if those fragments did in fact come from the limo. Frazier and his team were supposed to examine the limo as a crime scene, but before he could get to the Secret Service garage two men (I'm writing this from memory and can't instantly recall their names) went through the limo, not only contaminating the crime scene but also allegedly removing evidence without first photographing it in situ. When Frazier finally arrived at the garage he was just given the fragments and told they had come from the limo. In any other murder case, this kind of "evidence" would be instantly declared inadmissible.
And then we have the three shells found at the sniper's nest. It is a matter of record that Fritz, when he entered the nest, picked up the shells and later threw them back on the floor again. The evidentiary problem is of course that we don't and can't know for sure if the shells he threw on the floor were the same ones that he picked up. Now, before you get all worked up about this, you do know, don't you, that the purpose of the chain of custody rules is to preserve the evidence and project it, as much as possible, against any kind of manipulation?
And the paper bag wasn't seen by the first six officers in the nest and then was seen by several others. Studebaker failed to photograph it in situ and although it was allegedly folded up when it was found, it was carried out of the TSBD unfolded and upside down, allowing items that were perhaps in the bag to fall out. Later that same bag was photographed at the FBI lab in Washington lying next to the blanket taken from Ruth Paine's garage which was, to say the least, a violation of the way evidence is supposed to be protected against cross contamination.
Obviously I am playing Devil's advocate here and I could go on and on, but you get the picture. So, on a superficial level the physical evidence may point to Oswald but upon closer inspection things get IMO very blurred and convoluted.
Should I just IGNORE all of that evidence or pretend it's all been "planted" there to frame an innocent Oswald? Sorry, but that idea is beyond silly and foolish (IMHO).
Nobody is asking you to ignore any of the evidence and you don't have to pretend that all of it has been planted, because that's certainly not the case IMO. What you perhaps should do is deal with the evidence honestly with an open mind and in a less superficial manner and consider the possibility that some of the evidence could have been manipulated after the fact to wrap the case around a man who was already deemed to be guilty before the first pieces of evidence were collected and examined.
-
Hello again Martin,
As you no doubt already know, it's my opinion that absolutely none of the evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases has been faked or manufactured or planted, and as such it is fairly obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty of the two murders he was charged with committing on 11/22/63.
I also fully realize, of course, that most (if not all) people who lean toward believing in a conspiracy in the Kennedy and Tippit cases think that it is highly likely that at least some (and probably most) of the physical evidence that points toward Oswald was in some way tainted by the police and/or FBI following the two murders. So that's a disagreement that is always going to exist and will likely never be reconciled to please both sides of the debate.
But in addition to the physical evidence itself, a good deal of attention also needs to be focused on Oswald's own actions and movements on both November 21st and 22nd---which are things that I don't think even the most imaginative conspiracy theorist on the planet could possibly believe were "manufactured" by the authorities).
And when those actions and movements are examined, it becomes quite clear that Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days, such as:
.... Going out to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas, with Buell Frazier on a Thursday (instead of his normal Friday).
.... Telling a lie about why he wanted a ride to Irving on Thursday, Nov. 21st. (And it's fairly clear that Oswald's "curtain rods" story was, indeed, nothing but a lie.)
.... Bringing a large-ish paper package with him to work on 11/22 (and telling a lie to Frazier about the contents of that package).
.... Walking ahead of Frazier into the TSBD Building on the morning of 11/22.
.... Asking for an elevator to be sent back up to him on an upper floor of the TSBD at about 11:45 AM on 11/22. (Now, why do you suppose Oswald wanted that to be done?)
.... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America).
.... And after getting into William Whaley's cab on 11/22, where does Oswald tell the driver to drop him off? Not at the front doorstep of 1026 N. Beckley (which Whaley could have easily done), but instead Oswald tells Whaley to drop him off three whole blocks beyond his Beckley roominghouse.
.... Oswald then backtracks to his rented room, grabs his revolver and a jacket, and quickly leaves the roominghouse.
... Oswald then shoots and kills police officer J.D. Tippit on Tenth Street.
(Continual reminder for conspiracy theorists ----> Click Here (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png).)
.... Oswald is next seen acting "funny" and "scared" while he has his back turned to the wailing police cars on Jefferson Boulevard in front of Johnny Brewer's shoe store.
.... Then it's on to the Texas Theater for LHO, as he sneaks in without bothering to pay for the cheap ticket.
.... Oswald then pulls his gun on police officer McDonald inside the theater.
.... And the comments made by Oswald at the time of his arrest in the theater certainly don't conjure up visions of an "innocent patsy" either.
So, as we can see, Oswald's movements certainly can't be ignored or swept under the rug---because, in my opinion, Lee Oswald's own movements and actions on Nov. 21 and Nov. 22 add up to the actions of a guilty person.
And when we add the physical evidence (plus the Tippit eyewitnesses) to Oswald's own guilty-like actions, then the only conceivable way to exonerate Mr. Oswald for the murders of John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit would be to do what most conspiracy theorists do, and that is to make the following bold claim (sans any proof at all):
All of that evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald was fake!
Also....
The chain of possession/custody for Bullet CE399 is, in my opinion, a lot stronger than most conspiracists believe it is. And it got even stronger in June 2022 when researcher Steve Roe discovered Elmer Todd's initials on the bullet:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-initials-of-elmer-todd-are-on-ce399.html
More discussion on CE399's chain of custody HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-secret-service-and-ce399.html) and HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-711.html).
Lots more proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt at the link below:
http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com
-
Hello again Martin,
-SNIP-
.... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America).
.... And after getting into William Whaley's cab on 11/22, where does Oswald tell the driver to drop him off? Not at the front doorstep of 1026 N. Beckley (which Whaley could have easily done), but instead Oswald tells Whaley to drop him off three whole blocks beyond his Beckley roominghouse.
.... Oswald then backtracks to his rented room, grabs his revolver and a jacket, and quickly leaves the roominghouse.
... Oswald then shoots and kills police officer J.D. Tippit on Tenth Street.
(Continual reminder for conspiracy theorists ----> Click Here (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png).)
.... Oswald is next seen acting "funny" and "scared" while he has his back turned to the wailing police cars on Jefferson Boulevard in front of Johnny Brewer's shoe store.
.... Then it's on to the Texas Theater for LHO, as he sneaks in without bothering to pay for the cheap ticket.
.... Oswald then pulls his gun on police officer McDonald inside the theater.
.... And the comments made by Oswald at the time of his arrest in the theater certainly don't conjure up visions of an "innocent patsy" either.
So, as we can see, Oswald's movements certainly can't be ignored or swept under the rug---because, in my opinion, Lee Oswald's own movements and actions on Nov. 21 and Nov. 22 add up to the actions of a guilty person.
And when we add the physical evidence (plus the Tippit eyewitnesses) to Oswald's own guilty-like actions, then the only conceivable way to exonerate Mr. Oswald for the murders of John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit would be to do what most conspiracy theorists do, and that is to make the following bold claim (sans any proof at all):
All of that evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald was fake!
Also....
The chain of possession/custody for Bullet CE399 is, in my opinion, a lot stronger than most conspiracists believe it is. And it got even stronger in June 2022 when researcher Steve Roe discovered Elmer Todd's initials on the bullet:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-initials-of-elmer-todd-are-on-ce399.html
More discussion on CE399's chain of custody HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-secret-service-and-ce399.html) and HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-711.html).
Lots more proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt at the link below:
http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com
How old was Whaley?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley
"According to his army registration, he was born in 1908. ..."
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2021/248/13730776_302fa279-6eca-4833-80c2-a6ba4bc613ad.jpeg)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
"...William served in the Navy aboard a ship and fought in the Second World War."
Which ship was Whaley serving on when he earned a Navy Cross, "over Iwo Jima"?
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/davis_vc.htm
TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS
The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building. Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
454
..Mr. BELIN. Did you call the police before or after you saw him cut across your yard?
Mrs. DAVIS. Before.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, to your---to the best of your recollection, you heard the shots, you ran outside, you saw Mrs. Markham---did you see anything else when you saw Mrs. Markham?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of the road.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on your side of East 10th or the other side of the street?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was on our side, the same side that we lived on.
Mr. BELIN. Was it headed as you looked to the police car, towards your right or towards your left?
Mrs. DAVIS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer in a police car when you first saw him?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. .."
....
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of the road.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door..."
Virginia was describing Tippit's girlfriend's temporary residence. (Her estranged spouse at the time was suspected
of shooting Tippit after he found out Tippit had impregnated her.) (see Gary Mack's description of Larry Harris's research
into Johnnie Maxie Witherspoon and her ex-husband and her suspected Tippit fathered daughter;
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Mack%20Gary%20Cover-up/Item%2027.pdf (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Mack%20Gary%20Cover-up/Item%2027.pdf) )
...
https://www.cia.gov/static/Of-Moles-and-Molehunters-1.pdf
Author.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Cram
....No study exists on Angleton's efforts in retirement to spread his
conspiracy and other theories through writers such as Edward J. Epstein. .
-SNIP-
....
The next significant book involving Angieton was Henry Hurt's
Shadrin, published in 1981. While working on Legend as an assistant to
Epstein, Hurt had become aware of the mysterious disappearance of
Shadrin, a Soviet defector. Sensing there was a story there, Hurt began interviewing the missing defector's wife and her lawyer. The Reader's Digest
agreed to provide financial support for the project, which began as a magazine article but quickly grew into a book. Fulton Oursler, then the chief editor of The Reader's Digest, was a man of strong rightwing views and much
influenced by the Angleton-Epstein theories. The inability of the US
authorities to provide an answer to the mystery of Shadrin's disappearance
had provoked wide criticism. Hurt's account not only revived the old
Golitsyn-Nosenko controversy but also made it more current by citing the
appearance of a mysterious KGB man referred to as "Igor."
9
Angieton doubtlessly contributed information to Hurt, but so did a
number of FBI people who talked more than they should have. In sum,
much classified information was made public that could only have endangered
the safety of Igor, assuming he was genuine. This was a matter on
which Agency people again divided: Angieton believed Igor was not
genuine; others thought his valuable information proved his bona fides. The
Hurt book, however, was essentially propaganda intended to benefit Mrs.
Shadrin. Its attack on the Agency, the FBI, and the new CI Staff did not
help her cause, and the book's many inaccuracies distorted an already confused situation.
....
[/quote]
-
Hello again Martin,
As you no doubt already know, it's my opinion that absolutely none of the evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases has been faked or manufactured or planted, and as such it is fairly obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty of the two murders he was charged with committing on 11/22/63.
I also fully realize, of course, that most (if not all) people who lean toward believing in a conspiracy in the Kennedy and Tippit cases think that it is highly likely that at least some (and probably most) of the physical evidence that points toward Oswald was in some way tainted by the police and/or FBI following the two murders. So that's a disagreement that is always going to exist and will likely never be reconciled to please both sides of the debate.
But in addition to the physical evidence itself, a good deal of attention also needs to be focused on Oswald's own actions and movements on both November 21st and 22nd---which are things that I don't think even the most imaginative conspiracy theorist on the planet could possibly believe were "manufactured" by the authorities).
And when those actions and movements are examined, it becomes quite clear that Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days, such as:
.... Going out to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas, with Buell Frazier on a Thursday (instead of his normal Friday).
.... Telling a lie about why he wanted a ride to Irving on Thursday, Nov. 21st. (And it's fairly clear that Oswald's "curtain rods" story was, indeed, nothing but a lie.)
.... Bringing a large-ish paper package with him to work on 11/22 (and telling a lie to Frazier about the contents of that package).
.... Walking ahead of Frazier into the TSBD Building on the morning of 11/22.
.... Asking for an elevator to be sent back up to him on an upper floor of the TSBD at about 11:45 AM on 11/22. (Now, why do you suppose Oswald wanted that to be done?)
.... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America).
.... And after getting into William Whaley's cab on 11/22, where does Oswald tell the driver to drop him off? Not at the front doorstep of 1026 N. Beckley (which Whaley could have easily done), but instead Oswald tells Whaley to drop him off three whole blocks beyond his Beckley roominghouse.
.... Oswald then backtracks to his rented room, grabs his revolver and a jacket, and quickly leaves the roominghouse.
... Oswald then shoots and kills police officer J.D. Tippit on Tenth Street.
(Continual reminder for conspiracy theorists ----> Click Here (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png).)
.... Oswald is next seen acting "funny" and "scared" while he has his back turned to the wailing police cars on Jefferson Boulevard in front of Johnny Brewer's shoe store.
.... Then it's on to the Texas Theater for LHO, as he sneaks in without bothering to pay for the cheap ticket.
.... Oswald then pulls his gun on police officer McDonald inside the theater.
.... And the comments made by Oswald at the time of his arrest in the theater certainly don't conjure up visions of an "innocent patsy" either.
So, as we can see, Oswald's movements certainly can't be ignored or swept under the rug---because, in my opinion, Lee Oswald's own movements and actions on Nov. 21 and Nov. 22 add up to the actions of a guilty person.
And when we add the physical evidence (plus the Tippit eyewitnesses) to Oswald's own guilty-like actions, then the only conceivable way to exonerate Mr. Oswald for the murders of John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit would be to do what most conspiracy theorists do, and that is to make the following bold claim (sans any proof at all):
All of that evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald was fake!
Also....
The chain of possession/custody for Bullet CE399 is, in my opinion, a lot stronger than most conspiracists believe it is. And it got even stronger in June 2022 when researcher Steve Roe discovered Elmer Todd's initials on the bullet:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-initials-of-elmer-todd-are-on-ce399.html
More discussion on CE399's chain of custody HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-secret-service-and-ce399.html) and HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-711.html).
Lots more proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt at the link below:
http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com
Hi David,
Some of Oswald's actions and movements are indeed not easily understood or explained. Having said that, they are most certainly open to several interpretations depending on a person's (biased) point of view.
.... Going out to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas, with Buell Frazier on a Thursday (instead of his normal Friday).
.... Telling a lie about why he wanted a ride to Irving on Thursday, Nov. 21st. (And it's fairly clear that Oswald's "curtain rods" story was, indeed, nothing but a lie.)
I know that the LN explanation is that he went to Irving to collect his rifle, but IMO there are several things questionable about that narrative. First of all, we don't even know for sure that there was a rifle there. The only person who allegedly saw a rifle wrapped in a blanket in Ruth Paine's garage is Marina, and that was about a week after her return from New Orleans, which puts it in late September. After that people have seen the blanket, but nobody has seen the rifle. I personally find it hard to believe that Oswald would surrender the rifle he allegedly used in the attempted murder of General Walker to a third party like Ruth Paine and have it placed at a location he would have difficulty to get access to it. Secondly, Oswald only visited Marina in Irving a few occassions after he returned to Dallas, which means that if he went every Friday after he started working at the TSBD (on October 16th) and could drive down with Frazier, there were only four visits, because we know that he didn't go on Friday 11/15/63. That, IMO, can not really be seen as a pattern, but be that as it may, we know that Marina and Ruth Paine both believed that he came to Irving to make up with Marina and ask her to live with him again. Could he have done that on the following Friday? Sure, but it could also be that he went on Thursday so that he could have the Friday to look for an appartment, if Marina would say yes.
And then there is this to consider; If Oswald did indeed go to Irving to pick up the rifle, he must have done so because he had already made up his mind to try and kill Kennedy, right? But if that's the case, then why would he try so desperately to convince Marina to start living with him again? I know that some LNs claim that Oswald didn't decide to kill Kennedy until after Marina had turned him down and that him leaving money and his wedding ring would prove that, but that also doesn't make any sense, because those same LNs also claim that he made the paper bag at the TSBD, no later than Thursday, especially to conceal the weapon in. None of it makes much sense, if you ask me.
As for the curtain rods story, that can easily be taken out of context. Oswald wasn't the most talkative person and I don't think he would have told the then 19 year Frazier about his marital problems with Marina, and risk that Frazier would tell somebody else at work. So, although strange, it can be he told the curtain rods story to avoid having to tell Frazier the real reason for his visit on Thursday instead the "normal" Friday.
.... Bringing a large-ish paper package with him to work on 11/22 (and telling a lie to Frazier about the contents of that package).
.... Walking ahead of Frazier into the TSBD Building on the morning of 11/22.
Again, it depends in which context you place this. Although the LNs assume that Oswald carried the bag that was later found at the TSBD, it is in no way sure that is actually the case. Frazier (and to some extent Randle) described a bag that was smaller and Frazier has, to this day, always been adamant that he saw Oswald carry a different type of bag, between the cup of his hand and under his armpit. IMO, we can only speculate about what was in the bag and it totally depends on the content of the bag whether it is in fact significant in this case or not. In any event, I see really nothing suspicious in Oswald walking ahead of Frazier, who stayed behind briefly to charge the battery of his car.
.... Asking for an elevator to be sent back up to him on an upper floor of the TSBD at about 11:45 AM on 11/22. (Now, why do you suppose Oswald wanted that to be done?)
I have no idea why it is significant that Oswald asked the elevator to be sent back up some 45 minutes prior to the shooting. You really have to explain to me why you have included this in your list.
.... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America).
.... And after getting into William Whaley's cab on 11/22, where does Oswald tell the driver to drop him off? Not at the front doorstep of 1026 N. Beckley (which Whaley could have easily done), but instead Oswald tells Whaley to drop him off three whole blocks beyond his Beckley roominghouse.
.... Oswald then backtracks to his rented room, grabs his revolver and a jacket, and quickly leaves the roominghouse.
The fact that Oswald left the TSBD within about 3 minutes is indeed a head scratcher. It seems an unlikely thing to do if he was a completely innocent man. However, I have never believed that Oswald was completely innocent, for the simple reason that it is near impossible (IMO) to frame somebody who is not somehow involved in what was going on. Some CTs claim that Oswald was indeed involved in some sort of scheme, but at a low level, and that, after Kennedy was shot, he realized that he had been set up as the patsy and that this was the real reason for him to try to get to the roominghouse as quickly as possible.
All this is of course highly speculative, because we will never know what actually was on Oswald's mind after his encounter with Baker, which btw I don't understand why it happened in the first place. If you accept that he came down the stairs from the 6th, then he was already through the door at the 2nd floor before Truly (and Baker) came up. So, why would he wait in the lunchroom (where Baker saw him looking calm and collected), when he simply could have turned right and walk through the office space to the front entrance? It doesn't make sense!
Having said that, the possibility of an alternative patsy scenario means that you can't just say he left so quickly because he was guilty of firing the shots at Kennedy. The patsy scenario also could explain why he asked Whaley to drop him off three blocks beyond the roominghouse. What I do not understand about the Whaley encounter is the fact that Oswald actually offered his cab to a lady. Now why would he do that, if he was indeed on the run?
... Oswald then shoots and kills police officer J.D. Tippit on Tenth Street.
(Continual reminder for conspiracy theorists ----> Click Here (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png).)
This is where we part ways. On the page you linked to, you claim that it is impossible that somebody else, using Oswald's revolver and looking like Oswald, could have killed Tippit and then somehow handed the revolver to the real Oswald. Playing devil's advocate again, I would say there is a major flaw in your narrative. Although the revolver that Oswald allegedly ordered from Seaport Traders is apparently indeed the revolver that was used to kill Tippit, that doesn't automatically make it Oswald's revolver. When placed in a conspiratorial setting, the story could well be that Oswald was manipulated in some way to order the revolver and the rifle for some person using the Hidell name, who was only known to Oswald and thus always stayed deep in the background. Admittedly there is no evidence for such a person existing, but that's because it was never investigated and absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. During interrogation [if the reports are to be believed] Oswald apparently did admit that he carried a revolver when he was arrested, but he said he had bought it months earlier in Fort Worth. This was also - as far as I know - never investigated.
Far fetched? Maybe, but not impossible. The biggest problem I have with the revolver now in evidence is that there is no persuasive chain of custody for it. Hill was given the revolver and was told it was Oswald's, just like Gus Rose was given a wallet (containing the fake Hidell ID) by a never identified officer at the police station. Hill did not instantly present the weapon to the evidence room, but instead allegedly carried it around for some considerable time, before asking some officers in the police lunchroom (iirc) to initial it. Remarkably, a similar thing happened with the gray jacket as well. In both cases the officers initialed the revolver and jacket well after Oswald's arrest.
And let's not forget that shortly after the assassination police officers arrested a man who looked similar to Oswald. If there was one, that fooled the officers, there can also be another who looked enough to fool the witnesses who later identified Oswald, but of which most only saw the killer for a few seconds, and I know from personal experience, it's not so easy to be absolutely sure of an identification. I was once witness to a robbery and when police asked me, only a half hour later, if I could identify the man I had to say that I didn't think so because it all happened extremely fast.
I am also not convinced that Oswald had enough time to get from the roominghouse to 10th street in the first place. And there is, of course, of the splice in the DPD radio recording at the exact moment when Tippit is supposed to have been killed.
So, things may not be so straight forward and conclusive as you make them out to be.
.... Oswald is next seen acting "funny" and "scared" while he has his back turned to the wailing police cars on Jefferson Boulevard in front of Johnny Brewer's shoe store.
.... Then it's on to the Texas Theater for LHO, as he sneaks in without bothering to pay for the cheap ticket.
The question that needs to be asked here is why would Oswald act in a way that draws attention to him? This is the same man who Baker described as being calm and collected after Kennedy was killed.
.... Oswald then pulls his gun on police officer McDonald inside the theater.
According to McDonalds, but nobody else saw Oswald raise his revolver.
.... And the comments made by Oswald at the time of his arrest in the theater certainly don't conjure up visions of an "innocent patsy" either.
I'm not sure what comments you mean.
So, as we can see, Oswald's movements certainly can't be ignored or swept under the rug---because, in my opinion, Lee Oswald's own movements and actions on Nov. 21 and Nov. 22 add up to the actions of a guilty person.
Nobody, at least not me, is ignoring Oswald's movements or sweeping them under the rug. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but in my view there is enough reason for doubting that conclusion.
Also....
The chain of possession/custody for Bullet CE399 is, in my opinion, a lot stronger than most conspiracists believe it is. And it got even stronger in June 2022 when researcher Steve Roe discovered Elmer Todd's initials on the bullet:
Which means that the chain of custody from CE399 actually started in the FBI lab in Washington, when it should have started by the person who found it or the first officer the item was handed to. SS agent Johnson had studied Criminal Justice and thus was aware how to correctly handle evidence. Just putting it in a pocket of his jacket is most certainly not part of such a procedure.
Todd's initials on the bullet only mean that it was the bullet he received in a closed envelope from Secret Service chief Rowley. It does not mean it was the same bullet that Tomlinson found.
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I'm sorry, did you just say something? Oh yeah, I see you have continued to ignore, misrepresent or dismiss completely what I have been telling you.
Evasive, making stuff up, not being able to present a shred of evidence for any of your bogus claims and a total inability to have a normal discussion..... and let's not forget making a total fool of yourself.
You could have at least tried to be somewhat original in your little ad hom attack instead of merely projecting, but it seems even that is too much to expect from you.
You have claimed (without evidence) that Adams and Styles stayed at the 4th floor for four minutes after the shots, despite the fact that Adams and Garner contradict that, but your main idiotic claim is that Harkness sealed of the back of the TSBD at 12:36 and was the officer who told Adams and Styles to go back in. In doing so, you completely ignore the fact that Shelley and Lovelady confirm they saw police officers running to the area west of the building and checking cars when they got there about two minutes after the shots. Obviously, you offer not a shred of evidence for the alleged Harkness/Adams/Styles encounter, because it does not exist. But even worse, we know that Styles re-entered the building at the front entrance before it was locked down at 12:37.
So, what you the readers of this forum to believe (again without offering any evidence) is that Harkness, at the back of the building, told the women to return to the building, and that they did not simply turn around and went back by way of the loading dock, but instead decided to walk/run (in high heels) three sides of the building to enter at the front entrance, and did so within less than a minute. Really? You don't understand just how crazy that claim is?
This "discussion" with you is utterly pathetic and not worth to waste anymore time on, but by all means keep on trolling and provoke massive laughter.
What a blowhard. No doubt you are moving on, it is your MO. Make bogus claims and then make tracks when you are proven wrong. The last time you ran to Tim Nickerson to hide from the truth, now it is David Von Pein. If memory serves the ridiculous timeline was the result of posts to Tim Nickerson.
It did not take Belin long to figure out, they just did not leave as fast as they thought. Even after having your hand held and walked through it, 3 and ½ years later you are still struggling.
You made unsubstantiated claims about the girls encountering a mysterious policeman earlier than what Harkness stated was the time the rear of the TSBD was locked down. Three minutes earlier. Maybe it is time for a new timeline to coincide with all the other oddball theories you present. You know these conspiracy theories, even though you are so unbiased. It is known Sgt Harkness and several other officers locked it down at 12:36 because that is what he stated. It is known that Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor on their way out the back, because that is what she said. Lovelady and Shelley said they spent about 5 minutes walking around before returning to the TSBD, that would be about 12:35, because that is what they said. Sawyer stated they locked the front of the building down at about 12:37. You are right you need to go do something else because this seems to be a little to complex, with three known facts, for you. I am sure all your fans on the forum don’t like to see you flounder like this.
Them still being on the fourth floor is the only way to explain the known times. The Shelley and Lovelady sighting place them not reaching the first floor until 12:35. No pretense will make these facts go away.
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It is hard to understand why you are now pretending this goofy timeline is not yours. All it consists of is an unknown imaginary cop inserted to make it all work. Oh, and you also know how they struggled to walk. I forgot about the high heels nonsense.
Martin Weidmann---12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
I am still not sure why you know so much about walking in high heels and what it is like walking alongside the track west of the TSBD in them.
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What a blowhard. No doubt you are moving on, it is your MO. Make bogus claims and then make tracks when you are proven wrong. The last time you ran to Tim Nickerson to hide from the truth, now it is David Von Pein. If memory serves the ridiculous timeline was the result of posts to Tim Nickerson.
It did not take Belin long to figure out, they just did not leave as fast as they thought. Even after having your hand held and walked through it, 3 and ½ years later you are still struggling.
You made unsubstantiated claims about the girls encountering a mysterious policeman earlier than what Harkness stated was the time the rear of the TSBD was locked down. Three minutes earlier. Maybe it is time for a new timeline to coincide with all the other oddball theories you present. You know these conspiracy theories, even though you are so unbiased. It is known Sgt Harkness and several other officers locked it down at 12:36 because that is what he stated. It is known that Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor on their way out the back, because that is what she said. Lovelady and Shelley said they spent about 5 minutes walking around before returning to the TSBD, that would be about 12:35, because that is what they said. Sawyer stated they locked the front of the building down at about 12:37. You are right you need to go do something else because this seems to be a little to complex, with three known facts, for you. I am sure all your fans on the forum don’t like to see you flounder like this.
Them still being on the fourth floor is the only way to explain the known times. The Shelley and Lovelady sighting place them not reaching the first floor until 12:35. No pretense will make these facts go away.
----------------------------------------------------
It is hard to understand why you are now pretending this goofy timeline is not yours. All it consists of is an unknown imaginary cop inserted to make it all work. Oh, and you also know how they struggled to walk. I forgot about the high heels nonsense.
Martin Weidmann---12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
I am still not sure why you know so much about walking in high heels and what it is like walking alongside the track west of the TSBD in them.
Stop wasting people's time with repeating the same old BS over and over again. You haven't proven a damned thing and never will. You only present assumptions and speculations and call them "evidence" and "facts".
According to you Adams and Garner are liars. In fact you are saying that everything Adams said in her testimony about her movements is completely untrue, except the little part about seeing Shelley and Lovely on the 1st floor. How crazy is that? You assume Harkness is spot on with 12:36 sealing off the back of the building, when in fact he could easily be mistaken by a minute or so either way, and claim, without a shred of evidence, that it was Harkness who told Adams to go back. You also assume that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building at exactly 5 minutes after the shots, when neiter one said they did and it could well have been one or two minutes later, you idiotically assume that Adams and Styles could have walked three sides of the building in less than a minute and now you are babbling on about me somehow pretending that my timeline isn't mine.
You are way too detached from reality to be taken seriously.
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Stop wasting people's time with repeating the same old BS over and over again. You haven't proven a damned thing and never will. You only present assumptions and speculations and call them "evidence" and "facts".
According to you Adams and Garner are liars. In fact you are saying that everything Adams said in her testimony about her movements is completely untrue, except the little part about seeing Shelley and Lovely on the 1st floor. How crazy is that? You assume Harkness is spot on with 12:36 sealing off the back of the building, when in fact he could easily be mistaken by a minute or so either way, and claim, without a shred of evidence, that it was Harkness who told Adams to go back. You also assume that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building at exactly 5 minutes after the shots, when neiter one said they did and it could well have been one or two minutes later, you idiotically assume that Adams and Styles could have walked three sides of the building in less than a minute and now you are babbling on about me somehow pretending that my timeline isn't mine.
You are way too detached from reality to be taken seriously.
You are way too detached from reality to be taken seriously.
It wasn’t a problem before. A number of posts resulted in some ignorant supposedly clever comments from you. All I want to know is more about your doofus timeline. Your opinion seems so idiotically uninformed and without merit, and I am just trying to help you.
Basically, just another blowhard post. Now instead of using your unbiased assessments on witness statements, statements that were incorporated in your doofus timeline, you are back to offering your opinion as fact and stating all the witnesses were wrong only you know what happened. Are you ever going to supply proof of your imaginary officer. Other police officers being located in Dallas is not proof. Without it the only known officers in the back of the TSBD are Sgt Harkness and his men locking it down at 12:36, just like he said. Seems you want proof of things from everybody but yourself.
Here is a question for you because you like questions so much. Doesn’t that make you a clown hypocrite? You have ignored every witness statement except the part of Adams and Styles where they talk about leaving. Even ignoring them encountering Shelley and Lovelady and the police, which correspond to their statements. Everybody else is wrong but them, obviously the fact the math doesn’t work is of no concern to someone with your unbiassed opinion. We are so lucky to have you here.
I am still not sure why you know so much about walking in high heels and what it is like walking alongside the track west of the TSBD in them.
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You are way too detached from reality to be taken seriously.
It wasn’t a problem before. A number of posts resulted in some ignorant supposedly clever comments from you. All I want to know is more about your doofus timeline. Your opinion seems so idiotically uninformed and without merit, and I am just trying to help you.
Basically, just another blowhard post. Now instead of using your unbiased assessments on witness statements, statements that were incorporated in your doofus timeline, you are back to offering your opinion as fact and stating all the witnesses were wrong only you know what happened. Are you ever going to supply proof of your imaginary officer. Other police officers being located in Dallas is not proof. Without it the only known officers in the back of the TSBD are Sgt Harkness and his men locking it down at 12:36, just like he said. Seems you want proof of things from everybody but yourself.
Here is a question for you because you like questions so much. Doesn’t that make you a clown hypocrite? You have ignored every witness statement except the part of Adams and Styles where they talk about leaving. Even ignoring them encountering Shelley and Lovelady and the police, which correspond to their statements. Everybody else is wrong but them, obviously the fact the math doesn’t work is of no concern to someone with your unbiassed opinion. We are so lucky to have you here.
I am still not sure why you know so much about walking in high heels and what it is like walking alongside the track west of the TSBD in them.
You are way too detached from reality to be taken seriously
It wasn’t a problem before.
I wasn't aware of just how bad it really was before.
I can't be bothered to give you any more attention. You are not going to baite me with false statements and outright lies. Start learning and understanding the evidence and stop being an ignoramus.
If you want to continue the conversation, then provide the evidence for Adams and Styles staying on the 4th floor for 4 minutes (which you falsely claimed was everywhere) and provide the evidence that it was Harkness who told Adams to go back into the TSBD. Without that you don't get any more response from me.
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You are way too detached from reality to be taken seriously.
It wasn’t a problem before. A number of posts resulted in some ignorant supposedly clever comments from you. All I want to know is more about your doofus timeline. Your opinion seems so idiotically uninformed and without merit, and I am just trying to help you.
Basically, just another blowhard post. Now instead of using your unbiased assessments on witness statements, statements that were incorporated in your doofus timeline, you are back to offering your opinion as fact and stating all the witnesses were wrong only you know what happened. Are you ever going to supply proof of your imaginary officer. Other police officers being located in Dallas is not proof. Without it the only known officers in the back of the TSBD are Sgt Harkness and his men locking it down at 12:36, just like he said. Seems you want proof of things from everybody but yourself.
Here is a question for you because you like questions so much. Doesn’t that make you a clown hypocrite? You have ignored every witness statement except the part of Adams and Styles where they talk about leaving. Even ignoring them encountering Shelley and Lovelady and the police, which correspond to their statements. Everybody else is wrong but them, obviously the fact the math doesn’t work is of no concern to someone with your unbiassed opinion. We are so lucky to have you here.
I am still not sure why you know so much about walking in high heels and what it is like walking alongside the track west of the TSBD in them.
You have ignored every witness statement except the part of Adams and Styles where they talk about leaving.
Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
And let's not forget that Styles has later refuted this early departure and has further clarified that they went to the passenger elevator first which is not only totally logical but with Adam's admitting she was wearing 3 inch heels is completely practical! Running down stairs with 3 inch heels??
JohnM
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Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
And let's not forget that Styles has later refuted this early departure and has further clarified that they went to the passenger elevator first which is not only totally logical but with Adam's admitting she was wearing 3 inch heels is completely practical! Running down stairs with 3 inch heels??
JohnM
Johnny is back and he is cherry picking again. Styles refuted nothing. She made several different statements over the years and once actually said that she could be wrong and that Adams probably had the best recollection.
But you completely ignored that, right? One can only wonder why.....
Vickie Adams told FBI agents Hardin and Scott on 11/24/63 that she and Styles ran "immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs". Isn't amazing that a statement by Styles 48 years after the fact is considered to be more accurate by you than Adams' recollection 2 minutes after the fact
Running down stairs with 3 inch heels??
What's with the question marks. Adams and Styles did run down the stairs in 3 inch heels, didn't they?
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Johnny is back and he is cherry picking again. Styles refuted nothing. She made several different statements over the years and once actually said that she could be wrong and that Adams probably had the best recollection.
But you completely ignored that, right? One can only wonder why.....
Vickie Adams told FBI agents Hardin and Scott on 11/24/63 that she and Styles ran "immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs". Isn't amazing that a statement by Styles 48 years after the fact is considered to be more accurate by you than Adams' recollection 2 minutes after the fact
Running down stairs with 3 inch heels??
What's with the question marks. Adams and Styles did run down the stairs in 3 inch heels, didn't they?
Johnny is back
I'm sorry that I've got a life outside of this Forum.
Styles refuted nothing.
Wrong!
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
Vickie Adams told FBI agents Hardin and Scott on 11/24/63 that she and Styles ran "immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
immediately
/ɪˈmiːdɪətli,ɪˈmiːdʒətli/
adverb
1. at once; instantly. "I rang immediately for an ambulance"
2. without any intervening time or space.
OR
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Running down stairs with 3 inch heels??
What's with the question marks. Adams and Styles did run down the stairs in 3 inch heels, didn't they?
If you say so??
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fHy3fn0/high-heels-going-down-stairs.gif)
JohnM
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I'm sorry that I've got a life outside of this Forum.
Wrong!
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
immediately
/ɪˈmiːdɪətli,ɪˈmiːdʒətli/
adverb
1. at once; instantly. "I rang immediately for an ambulance"
2. without any intervening time or space.
OR
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
If you say so??
JohnM
I'm sorry that I've got a life outside of this Forum.
Sure, you need time to spend on other forums as well.... I understand.
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
As I said, a "recollection" of 45 years after the fact (I misremembered and thought it was 48 years, sorry!). I'm sure you can remember perfectly fine if you went up the stairs or took an elevator in a particular building 45 years ago :D :D :D :D :D :D
immediately
/ɪˈmiːdɪətli,ɪˈmiːdʒətli/
adverb
1. at once; instantly. "I rang immediately for an ambulance"
2. without any intervening time or space.
OR
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
There is the dictionary again. I'm sure that Adams also had a dictionary and looked it up before she used the word "immediately".
And Belin must also have had one;
Mr. BELIN - As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see anyone on the third floor?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
or are you suggesting Belin meant that Adams and Styles waited 15 to 30 seconds on the third and second floor as well?
Perhaps you should also use the dictionary to find out the meaning of:
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds estimated, approximately
Try to get some better material, John, because this BS is way past its expiration date.
If you say so??
Again, what's with the question marks? You don't know how they are used, or what?
In any case, are you saying that Adams, Styles and Garner are all lying about the girls going down the stairs? (See, that's how a question mark is used Thumb1:)
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I'm sorry that I've got a life outside of this Forum.
Sure, you need time to spend on other forums as well.... I understand.
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
As I said, a "recollection" of 45 years after the fact (I misremembered and thought it was 48 years, sorry!). I'm sure you can remember perfectly fine if you went up the stairs or took an elevator in a particular building 45 years ago :D :D :D :D :D :D
There is the dictionary again. I'm sure that Adams also had a dictionary and looked it up before she used the word "immediately".
And Belin must also have had one;
Mr. BELIN - As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see anyone on the third floor?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
or are you suggesting Belin meant that Adams and Styles waited 15 to 30 seconds on the third and second floor as well?
You really need to get some better material, John, because this BS is way past its expiration date.
If you say so??
Again, what's with the question marks? You don't know how they are used, or what?
In any case, are you saying that Adams, Styles and Garner are all lying about the girls going down the stairs? (See, that's how a question mark is used Thumb1:)
Crikey!
For someone who claims to be open minded, you sure are close minded to even the slightest notion that threatens your biased 1 World view.
JohnM
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Crikey!
For someone who claims to be open minded, you sure are close minded to even the slightest notion that threatens your biased 1 World view.
JohnM
Look in the mirror!
I am only closed minded to bogus cherry picked one sided information provided by a dishonest troll.
But since you have replied with a typical "Mytton got stuck" silly response, you clearly understand that you have lost the argument again (as per usual). Thumb1:
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Look in the mirror!
I am only closed minded to bogus cherry picked one sided information provided by a dishonest troll.
But since you have replied with a typical "Mytton got stuck" silly response, you clearly understand that you have lost the argument again (as per usual). Thumb1:
Typical Martin response, Ad Hominin after Ad Hominin after Ad Hominin. Yawn!
So as expected, when Martin can't defend his Evidence, it's Attack Attack Attack. Double Yawn!
Maybe if Martin concentrated on his claim of being "open minded" and examined the evidence fairly from every side, then perhaps Martin could actually appear to be neutral, instead of what we have here, Martin being defined as a biased, one eyed conspiracy advocate. And that Martin my good friend, is good advice!
JohnM
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Typical Martin response, Ad Hominin after Ad Hominin after Ad Hominin. Yawn!
So as expected, when Martin can't defend his Evidence, it's Attack Attack Attack. Double Yawn!
Maybe if Martin concentrated on his claim of being "open minded" and examined the evidence fairly from every side, then perhaps Martin could actually appear to be neutral, instead of what we have here, Martin being defined as a biased, one eyed conspiracy advocate. And that Martin my good friend, is good advice!
JohnM
So predictable and completely boring.
You are confusing having an open mind with being utterly gullible.
But ok, let's be open minded; tell me why I should take a 45 year old memory by Styles more seriously than a contradictory statement she made years earlier and a statement Adams made to the FBI two days after the event?
Go on than, John... tell me
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I wasn't aware of just how bad it really was before.
I can't be bothered to give you any more attention. You are not going to baite me with false statements and outright lies. Start learning and understanding the evidence and stop being an ignoramus.
If you want to continue the conversation, then provide the evidence for Adams and Styles staying on the 4th floor for 4 minutes (which you falsely claimed was everywhere) and provide the evidence that it was Harkness who told Adams to go back into the TSBD. Without that you don't get any more response from me.
I can't be bothered to give you any more attention. You are not going to baite me with false statements and outright lies. Start learning and understanding the evidence and stop being an ignoramus.
You can't be bothered or relied upon to know anything about the assassination. You talk a way better game than you play, you just make crap up anyway. Not one shred of truth to any of it. Reality and truth are the first casualties of your pretend theories.
Without that you don't get any more response from me.
Incredible, I could care less about your opinion, and I don't care about any more response from you. It is just wading through stupidity anyway.
This is why your opinion is so funny, it totally lacks any and all reality. All that is asked is how you can ignore all the evidence to the contrary and still stick to your ridiculous doofus little “unbiased” opinion. You cannot even explain your ridiculous doofus little opinion because you inserted an imaginary policeman into it. In this unbiased fantasy you have created in your mind, you are the sole interpreter of ”the truth”. If you say it is proof of evidence in your mind that is all that is needed. If any other witnesses make statements that is not proof or evidence.
You will be missed talking about Adams and Styles because your quite an asset, you know, with you making up your own assassination storyline. That is so special.
I am still not sure why you know so much about walking in high heels and what it is like walking alongside the track west of the TSBD in them.
Bye Martin. It will be hard to go on without you, but I am sure I will manage.
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I'm sorry that I've got a life outside of this Forum.
Wrong!
"We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008
immediately
/ɪˈmiːdɪətli,ɪˈmiːdʒətli/
adverb
1. at once; instantly. "I rang immediately for an ambulance"
2. without any intervening time or space.
OR
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
If you say so??
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fHy3fn0/high-heels-going-down-stairs.gif)
JohnM
Just curios John, but is that a video of Martin falling down the steps? He is an expert on travel in high heels.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/9fHy3fn0/high-heels-going-down-stairs.gif)
JohnM
Thanks for posting this, John. It clearly shows that it isn't easy to walk in high heels shoes. Too bad the gif doesn't show Adams or Styles, because then you could have made an actual point. :D
And yet, some juvenile miscreant claims that Adams and Styles could have walked three sides of the TSBD (including it's annex), and partially over railway tracks in less than a minute. Can you imagine? Thumb1:
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Thanks for posting this, John. It clearly shows that it isn't easy to walk in high heels shoes. To bad the gif doesn't show Adams or Styles, because then you could have made an actual point. :D
And yet, some juvenile miscreant claims that Adams and Styles could have walked three sides of the TSBD (including it's annex), and partially over railway tracks in less than a minute. Can you imagine? Thumb1:
Just curious, did you fall from the top landing to the middle landing as well? Navigating something as complicated as a set of stairs is a problem?
Is there a condition which appears to make you unable to understand people who walk at a normal gait?
--------------------------
The Martin Weidmann opinion of the moment, or Martin’s which way is the wind blowing opinion. Depending on the circumstances, which Martin finds himself, the opinions of the witnesses are or are not deemed to be accurate estimations of time.
Now:
MW--” walked three sides of the TSBD (including it's annex), and partially over railway tracks in less than a minute”
Before:
MW--“when in fact he (Harkness) could easily be mistaken by a minute or so either way,”
MW-” The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.”
This interesting, a timeline not based on times. Who would have thought that was even possible.
So, you decided to lie for them. Good thinking.
-
Hello again Martin,
As you no doubt already know, it's my opinion that absolutely none of the evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases has been faked or manufactured or planted, and as such it is fairly obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty of the two murders he was charged with committing on 11/22/63.
I also fully realize, of course, that most (if not all) people who lean toward believing in a conspiracy in the Kennedy and Tippit cases think that it is highly likely that at least some (and probably most) of the physical evidence that points toward Oswald was in some way tainted by the police and/or FBI following the two murders. So that's a disagreement that is always going to exist and will likely never be reconciled to please both sides of the debate.
But in addition to the physical evidence itself, a good deal of attention also needs to be focused on Oswald's own actions and movements on both November 21st and 22nd---which are things that I don't think even the most imaginative conspiracy theorist on the planet could possibly believe were "manufactured" by the authorities).
And when those actions and movements are examined, it becomes quite clear that Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days, such as:
.... Going out to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas, with Buell Frazier on a Thursday (instead of his normal Friday).
.... Telling a lie about why he wanted a ride to Irving on Thursday, Nov. 21st. (And it's fairly clear that Oswald's "curtain rods" story was, indeed, nothing but a lie.)
.... Bringing a large-ish paper package with him to work on 11/22 (and telling a lie to Frazier about the contents of that package).
.... Walking ahead of Frazier into the TSBD Building on the morning of 11/22.
.... Asking for an elevator to be sent back up to him on an upper floor of the TSBD at about 11:45 AM on 11/22. (Now, why do you suppose Oswald wanted that to be done?)
.... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America).
.... And after getting into William Whaley's cab on 11/22, where does Oswald tell the driver to drop him off? Not at the front doorstep of 1026 N. Beckley (which Whaley could have easily done), but instead Oswald tells Whaley to drop him off three whole blocks beyond his Beckley roominghouse.
.... Oswald then backtracks to his rented room, grabs his revolver and a jacket, and quickly leaves the roominghouse.
... Oswald then shoots and kills police officer J.D. Tippit on Tenth Street.
(Continual reminder for conspiracy theorists ----> Click Here (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png).)
.... Oswald is next seen acting "funny" and "scared" while he has his back turned to the wailing police cars on Jefferson Boulevard in front of Johnny Brewer's shoe store.
.... Then it's on to the Texas Theater for LHO, as he sneaks in without bothering to pay for the cheap ticket.
.... Oswald then pulls his gun on police officer McDonald inside the theater.
.... And the comments made by Oswald at the time of his arrest in the theater certainly don't conjure up visions of an "innocent patsy" either.
So, as we can see, Oswald's movements certainly can't be ignored or swept under the rug---because, in my opinion, Lee Oswald's own movements and actions on Nov. 21 and Nov. 22 add up to the actions of a guilty person.
And when we add the physical evidence (plus the Tippit eyewitnesses) to Oswald's own guilty-like actions, then the only conceivable way to exonerate Mr. Oswald for the murders of John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit would be to do what most conspiracy theorists do, and that is to make the following bold claim (sans any proof at all):
All of that evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald was fake!
Also....
The chain of possession/custody for Bullet CE399 is, in my opinion, a lot stronger than most conspiracists believe it is. And it got even stronger in June 2022 when researcher Steve Roe discovered Elmer Todd's initials on the bullet:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-initials-of-elmer-todd-are-on-ce399.html
More discussion on CE399's chain of custody HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-secret-service-and-ce399.html) and HERE (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-711.html).
Lots more proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt at the link below:
http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com
evidence and proof are not quite the same thing are they David ? . is circumstantial evidence proof ? if it is why call it circumstantial ? why not call it proof ? .
for example you will say that Oswalds prints on boxes are proof he was on the 6th floor at 12.30pm that tragic day . and a prosecution attorney would ask a jury to infer from the prints that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30 .and that is not unreasonable .but then a defense attorney would argue the facts that Oswald worked in that building and indeed on that floor that very morning and was there certainly around 11.40am filling order from boxes of books , hence his prints would be on boxes on that floor . indeed the FBI print expert (i am going from memory now ) if memory serves said along the lines that the prints found on the boxes could have been there just a few hours or indeed days .
my point is not that evidence presented does not appear to point at Oswald , i am not saying that at all . i am saying that if we talk and use the word proof or PROVEN that we need to ensure what is being claimed is indeed irrefutable proof and proven .too often ive seen LN say this is proof , that is proven when it is often not at all the case .
just to prove the point i am making above you said and i quote
"And when those actions and movements are examined, it becomes quite clear that Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days, such as:"
you follow the above with
"Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting "
so you very evidently make several claims stating them as proven fact "Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days " . so now i must assume (correct me if you feel i am wrong ) as you are a devoted LN and Bugliosi follower that your stance is the official stance , which is that Oswald left the building withing 3 minutes of the shooting via the front door . if that be the case please tell me what PROOF you have of this ? . i am aware of not one witness who stated categorically that they saw Oswald leave via the front door 3 minutes after the shooter , not one photo , still or film that captured Oswald leaving via the front door 3 minutes after the shooting . let us be crystal clear here some person being told that they may have encountered oswald leaving the front door is in no way proof . so i would like to ask you for proof that Oswald did leave the depository via the FRONT door 3 minutes after the shooting .
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your stance is the official stance, which is that Oswald left the building within 3 minutes of the shooting via the front door. .... I would like to ask you for proof that Oswald did leave the depository via the FRONT door 3 minutes after the shooting.
But what difference does it really make which door Oswald utilized to leave the building? Whether it be the back door or the front door, there is no doubt whatsoever that Lee Oswald WAS inside the building at circa 12:32 PM and he then got onto a bus (and then a cab) a few minutes later. You surely don't deny the fact that Oswald made it to his roominghouse by about 1:00 PM, do you? Therefore, Oswald definitely DID leave the TSBD building within a very few minutes of the shooting. That fact is beyond all doubt (even amongst CTers).
Also....
When I discussed Oswald's "unusual" actions on 11/21 and 11/22, you need to ADD UP ALL of those actions and movements, instead of isolating just one of them (which is what you did above).
And when ALL of those actions/movements are added together, the result is, IMO, a person named Oswald who certainly was NOT an innocent "patsy" on 11/22/63.
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evidence and proof are not quite the same thing are they David ? . is circumstantial evidence proof ? if it is why call it circumstantial ? why not call it proof ? .
for example you will say that Oswalds prints on boxes are proof he was on the 6th floor at 12.30pm that tragic day . and a prosecution attorney would ask a jury to infer from the prints that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30 .and that is not unreasonable .but then a defense attorney would argue the facts that Oswald worked in that building and indeed on that floor that very morning and was there certainly around 11.40am filling order from boxes of books , hence his prints would be on boxes on that floor . indeed the FBI print expert (i am going from memory now ) if memory serves said along the lines that the prints found on the boxes could have been there just a few hours or indeed days .
my point is not that evidence presented does not appear to point at Oswald , i am not saying that at all . i am saying that if we talk and use the word proof or PROVEN that we need to ensure what is being claimed is indeed irrefutable proof and proven .too often ive seen LN say this is proof , that is proven when it is often not at all the case .
just to prove the point i am making above you said and i quote
"And when those actions and movements are examined, it becomes quite clear that Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days, such as:"
you follow the above with
"Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting "
so you very evidently make several claims stating them as proven fact "Mr. Oswald did several unusual things on each of those days " . so now i must assume (correct me if you feel i am wrong ) as you are a devoted LN and Bugliosi follower that your stance is the official stance , which is that Oswald left the building withing 3 minutes of the shooting via the front door . if that be the case please tell me what PROOF you have of this ? . i am aware of not one witness who stated categorically that they saw Oswald leave via the front door 3 minutes after the shooter , not one photo , still or film that captured Oswald leaving via the front door 3 minutes after the shooting . let us be crystal clear here some person being told that they may have encountered oswald leaving the front door is in no way proof . so i would like to ask you for proof that Oswald did leave the depository via the FRONT door 3 minutes after the shooting .
Evidence is part of proof.
Evidence vs circumstantial evidence can also be compared to alibi vs airtight alibi. There is actual circumstantial evidence but not only does LHO not have an airtight alibi he does not even have an alibi at all at the time of the assassination.
In the absence of an alibi, when does LHO actions indicate fleeing the scene of the crime. When he attempts to shoot a cop in a movie theater? When he was caught sneaking into a dark movie theater? Ditching his jacket? Leaving the scene of a shooting of an officer? Arriving at his rental to stay long enough to get a jacket and a pistol? Having the cab drop him not at his rental but several blocks away? Get on a bus to just get off of it within a few blocks? Leave his place of employment unnoticed within minutes of the crime and not be noticed by anyone? No alibi at the time of the shooting or in his own words came down the stairs to see what the “commotion” was about? Finally, a Marine who does not know what gunfire sounds like? Instead confused by the shots or “commotion” as he states.
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But what difference does it really make which door Oswald utilized to leave the building? Whether it be the back door or the front door, there is no doubt whatsoever that Lee Oswald WAS inside the building at circa 12:32 PM and he then got onto a bus (and then a cab) a few minutes later. You surely don't deny the fact that Oswald made it to his roominghouse by about 1:00 PM, do you? Therefore, Oswald definitely DID leave the TSBD building within a very few minutes of the shooting. That fact is beyond all doubt (even amongst CTers).
Also....
When I discussed Oswald's "unusual" actions on 11/21 and 11/22, you need to ADD UP ALL of those actions and movements, instead of isolating just one of them (which is what you did above).
And when ALL of those actions/movements are added together, the result is, IMO, a person named Oswald who certainly was NOT an innocent "patsy" on 11/22/63.
David,
When I discussed Oswald's "unusual" actions on 11/21 and 11/22, you need to ADD UP ALL of those actions and movements,
When I discussed them all together, in an earlier post, you seem to have ignored it. Why is that?
Could it be it's because there is an enormous lack of actual evidence and way too much speculation and assumptions and you know it?
And when ALL of those actions/movements are added together, the result is, IMO, a person named Oswald who certainly was NOT an innocent "patsy" on 11/22/63.
For the reason already explained in my previous post, I don't think there can be something like "innocent patsy". What there can be is somebody who was involved in some sort of scheme at a lower level that was actually set up to be a patsy in the real scheme.
Having said that, when you put all the actions and movements together, you first need to be sure you do so in the right context. As also discussed in my previous reply to you, there are simply too many items in the list you provided that can be explained in more than one way. So, when you start adding it all together with the wrong context you most likely will get the conclusion you want but that may not be the correct one.
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I see John has just posted in another thread, so his usual "excuse" that he has a life doesn't apply.
A couple of days ago I asked him why I should take a 45 year old memory by Styles more seriously than a contradictory statement she made years earlier and a statement Adams made to the FBI two days after the event?
So predictable and completely boring.
You are confusing having an open mind with being utterly gullible.
But ok, let's be open minded; tell me why I should take a 45 year old memory by Styles more seriously than a contradictory statement she made years earlier and a statement Adams made to the FBI two days after the event?
Go on than, John... tell me
John's reply (so far);
Go figure!
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But what difference does it really make which door Oswald utilized to leave the building? Whether it be the back door or the front door, there is no doubt whatsoever that Lee Oswald WAS inside the building at circa 12:32 PM and he then got onto a bus (and then a cab) a few minutes later. You surely don't deny the fact that Oswald made it to his roominghouse by about 1:00 PM, do you? Therefore, Oswald definitely DID leave the TSBD building within a very few minutes of the shooting. That fact is beyond all doubt (even amongst CTers).
Also....
When I discussed Oswald's "unusual" actions on 11/21 and 11/22, you need to ADD UP ALL of those actions and movements, instead of isolating just one of them (which is what you did above).
And when ALL of those actions/movements are added together, the result is, IMO, a person named Oswald who certainly was NOT an innocent "patsy" on 11/22/63.
Dave, as you well know they think, insist really, that Oswald was framed for the assassination of JFK. And then further framed for the murder of Tippit. And then sort of post-framed for the attempt on Walker (Oswald is dead; why would they need to frame him again? and risk revealing the conspiracy? for what purpose?). And along the way all of these separate lines of evidence in each case, in the assassination, in the shooting of Tippit, in the attempt on Walker, was faked, manufactured, falsified. All of it. Every single piece. The physical, the eyewitness and the circumstantial. Meanwhile, all of Oswald's behavior is innocently explained away and all of the behavior of others implicating him is considered corrupt, e.g., they lied or were ordered to lie or were coached.
Then the multiple investigations into this, by several generations of Americans of various backgrounds over decades both in the government and in the media, covered up what happened. So it was done, then covered up at that time, and then the cover up has itself been covered up over the following decades. By a different group of Americans - Democrats and Republicans can't agree on a single thing; but they agreed on this? Really?. And why? The media, the same one that exposed the crimes of the government have also covered this up. Because Operation Mockingbird or something (so the same media that exposed these other abuses were ordered by the CIA to coverup for the assassination and they did so?).
This is, frankly, a psychosis, a detachment from reality. It is not possible to do this. The government is a bureaucracy; it's not a monolithic "thing." We know it cannot be done; they think it not only is possible but was done. There is no way to persuade a person with this view that they are wrong. Whatever evidence you present will simply be added to their mountain of conspiracy. It's why when a new "discovery" from the files are found it's simply added to their conspiracy view. If we found 10 more witnesses that he shot Tippit or was seen fleeing then would simply add that 10 to their conspiracy. Another 10 were coached or ordered to identify him.
We can try but, again, as you know it's not going to work. The only way they can get out of this view, this detachment from reality, is by themselves, their own re-discovery, their own realization. Otherwise they simply consider what we say as more lies by fools or by disinformation agents.
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As you know Dave, they think Oswald was framed for the assassination of JFK. And then framed for the murder of Tippit. And then framed for the attempt on Walker (he's dead; why would they need to frame him again?). And along the way all of these separate lines of evidence in each case, in the assassination, in the shooting of Tippit, in the attempt on Walker, was faked, corrupt, manufactured, falsified. All of it. All of Oswald's behavior is innocently explained; all of the behavior of others implicating him is considered corrupt.
Then the multiple investigations into this, by several generations of Americans of various backgrounds over decades both in the government and in the media, covered up what happened. So it was done, then covered up, and then the cover up has itself been covered up. By a separate group of Americans - Democrats and Republicans can't agree on a single thing; but they agreed on this? Really?. The media, the same one that exposed the crimes of the government have also covered this up. Because Operation Mockingbird or something (so the same media that exposed these other abuses were ordered by the CIA to coverup for the assassination?).
This is, frankly, a psychosis, a detachment from reality. It is not possible to do this. The government is a bureaucracy; it's not a monolithic "thing." We know it cannot be done; they think it not only is possible but was done. There is no way to persuade a person with this view that they are wrong. Whatever evidence you present will simply be added to their mountain of conspiracy. It's why when a new "discovery" from the files are found it's simply added to their conspiracy view. If we found 10 more witnesses that he shot Tippit or was seen fleeing then would simply add that 10 to their conspiracy. Another 10 were coached or ordered to identify him.
We can try but, again, as you know. It's not going to work. The only way they can get out of this view, this detachment, is by themselves. They simply consider what we say as more lies by fools or by disinformation agents.
Instead of constantly complaining about what CTs and skeptics supposedly believe and say, do you ever have anything of substance to add to a discussion?
Who appointed you to be the guardian of the truth? It is a classic mistake to think that just because you believe something it must be true.
If you are so sure that the narrative you believe in is the right one, you should be able to defend and explain it, yet you never do. Not very convincing!
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But what difference does it really make which door Oswald utilized to leave the building? Whether it be the back door or the front door, there is no doubt whatsoever that Lee Oswald WAS inside the building at circa 12:32 PM and he then got onto a bus (and then a cab) a few minutes later. You surely don't deny the fact that Oswald made it to his roominghouse by about 1:00 PM, do you? Therefore, Oswald definitely DID leave the TSBD building within a very few minutes of the shooting. That fact is beyond all doubt (even amongst CTers).
Also....
When I discussed Oswald's "unusual" actions on 11/21 and 11/22, you need to ADD UP ALL of those actions and movements, instead of isolating just one of them (which is what you did above).
And when ALL of those actions/movements are added together, the result is, IMO, a person named Oswald who certainly was NOT an innocent "patsy" on 11/22/63.
well the OFFICIAL version of events , the LN version of events has Oswald not only leaving 3 minutes after the shooting but via the front door . so it made a difference to the Warren commission . and it makes a difference to LN . i did not isolate this , you posted several points and i was making a point of my own . the point being that zero proof and zero witnesses exist to prove that Oswald left via the front door 3 minutes after the shooting .yet both of these are claimed to be fact . so how many other things claimed to be fact actually are not fact ? . there is no doubt that Oswald left his work place , which door he left by is not a proven thing by any stretch . and that was my point , even you in essence state something to be fact that actually is not proven fact . in fact had he left via the front door quite a few people would have had to have seen him including a certain mr brennan , none of them saw him leave via the front door . it is actually more likely (all be it equally unproven) that he left via the rear door and the loading bay area . and one witness all be it belatedly said that is what he saw , and it was wes frazier .
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Evidence is part of proof.
Evidence vs circumstantial evidence can also be compared to alibi vs airtight alibi. There is actual circumstantial evidence but not only does LHO not have an airtight alibi he does not even have an alibi at all at the time of the assassination.
In the absence of an alibi, when does LHO actions indicate fleeing the scene of the crime. When he attempts to shoot a cop in a movie theater? When he was caught sneaking into a dark movie theater? Ditching his jacket? Leaving the scene of a shooting of an officer? Arriving at his rental to stay long enough to get a jacket and a pistol? Having the cab drop him not at his rental but several blocks away? Get on a bus to just get off of it within a few blocks? Leave his place of employment unnoticed within minutes of the crime and not be noticed by anyone? No alibi at the time of the shooting or in his own words came down the stairs to see what the “commotion” was about? Finally, a Marine who does not know what gunfire sounds like? Instead confused by the shots or “commotion” as he states.
Oswald offered no alibi , he said he ate alone . but again we have a person claiming things to be proven FACT when that simply is not the case .Brewer in testimony stated that he asked postal if she saw a man who he described to her go in ,according to brewer she said she did not see any such man sneak in . postal in her testimony not only said she saw the man sneak in but that she watched him walk along jeffferson and turn right and sneak in . that is quite a contradiction . who was right ? who was wrong ? , did one lie ? .in addition theater witnesses placed oswald in the theater quite a time before the brewer sighting . some 30 minutes prior .
i am not aware of any iron clad proof that the light color jacket found was oswalds . it was the wrong size , it was laundered when Marina did all Oswalds washing . it is difficult to place any stock in claims by marina when we know there was atleast by inference a threat to deport her if she did not co operate . this is supported by Robert Oswald an LN witness .
did every single witness within the building hear shots ? .
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
so why then would you infer that Oswald would have had to naturally hear shots ? .
i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
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Dave, as you well know they think, insist really, that Oswald was framed for the assassination of JFK. And then further framed for the murder of Tippit. And then sort of post-framed for the attempt on Walker (Oswald is dead; why would they need to frame him again? and risk revealing the conspiracy? for what purpose?). And along the way all of these separate lines of evidence in each case, in the assassination, in the shooting of Tippit, in the attempt on Walker, was faked, manufactured, falsified. All of it. Every single piece. The physical, the eyewitness and the circumstantial. Meanwhile, all of Oswald's behavior is innocently explained away and all of the behavior of others implicating him is considered corrupt, e.g., they lied or were ordered to lie or were coached.
Then the multiple investigations into this, by several generations of Americans of various backgrounds over decades both in the government and in the media, covered up what happened. So it was done, then covered up at that time, and then the cover up has itself been covered up over the following decades. By a different group of Americans - Democrats and Republicans can't agree on a single thing; but they agreed on this? Really?. And why? The media, the same one that exposed the crimes of the government have also covered this up. Because Operation Mockingbird or something (so the same media that exposed these other abuses were ordered by the CIA to coverup for the assassination and they did so?).
This is, frankly, a psychosis, a detachment from reality. It is not possible to do this. The government is a bureaucracy; it's not a monolithic "thing." We know it cannot be done; they think it not only is possible but was done. There is no way to persuade a person with this view that they are wrong. Whatever evidence you present will simply be added to their mountain of conspiracy. It's why when a new "discovery" from the files are found it's simply added to their conspiracy view. If we found 10 more witnesses that he shot Tippit or was seen fleeing then would simply add that 10 to their conspiracy. Another 10 were coached or ordered to identify him.
We can try but, again, as you know it's not going to work. The only way they can get out of this view, this detachment from reality, is by themselves, their own re-discovery, their own realization. Otherwise they simply consider what we say as more lies by fools or by disinformation agents.
that is quite a theory you got there , you sure you are not C T ? lol .
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Oswald offered no alibi , he said he ate alone . but again we have a person claiming things to be proven FACT when that simply is not the case .Brewer in testimony stated that he asked postal if she saw a man who he described to her go in ,according to brewer she said she did not see any such man sneak in . postal in her testimony not only said she saw the man sneak in but that she watched him walk along jeffferson and turn right and sneak in . that is quite a contradiction . who was right ? who was wrong ? , did one lie ? .in addition theater witnesses placed oswald in the theater quite a time before the brewer sighting . some 30 minutes prior .
i am not aware of any iron clad proof that the light color jacket found was oswalds . it was the wrong size , it was laundered when Marina did all Oswalds washing . it is difficult to place any stock in claims by marina when we know there was atleast by inference a threat to deport her if she did not co operate . this is supported by Robert Oswald an LN witness .
did every single witness within the building hear shots ? .
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
so why then would you infer that Oswald would have had to naturally hear shots ? .
i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
Oswald offered no alibi
Wait just a second.
Oswald never had an opportunity to offer an alibi. As there is no verbatim record of what Oswald actually said during his four interrogations before he was killed, we will never know what Oswald could have provided as an alibi.
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There is no doubt that Oswald left his workplace. Which door he left by is not a proven thing by any stretch, and that was my point. Even you in essence state something to be fact that actually is not proven fact.
I do, indeed, think that Oswald did exit the building via the front door. Is this a "proven" fact? No. But it is certainly the most reasonable inference to be made from the available evidence (mainly based on the testimony of Mrs. Reid, who saw Oswald walking toward the FRONT stairs on the 2nd floor at about 12:32).
And since we KNOW that Oswald (who was no doubt attempting to get out of that building as quickly as he could following the shooting which was carried out with HIS RIFLE from the sixth floor) did exit the building very soon after the shooting, it doesn't make very much sense for him to go down the front stairs (which is the direction he was headed when Reid saw him), but then reverse his direction and go all the way to the back of the building again so he could exit via the Loading Dock door (which, IMO, would look more suspicious to anyone who might happen to see him leave by that back door right after a Presidential assassination attempt).
So the "reasonable inference" reached by the Warren Commission (and by David R. Von Pein of the Hoosier State) is that Lee H. Oswald very likely departed the Book Depository via the front entrance at about 12:33 PM CST on November 22nd. Your opinion may vary. But if it does vary, it's certainly not going to be nearly as "reasonable" as the "front door" inference.
And, btw, in this thread itself, I never said a word about Oswald leaving by the "front door". All I said was this:
".... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America)."
I'll accept your apology in advance. ;)
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Oswald offered no alibi
Wait just a second.
Oswald never had an opportunity to offer an alibi. As there is no verbatim record of what Oswald actually said during his four interrogations before he was killed, we will never know what Oswald could have provided as an alibi.
Oswald never had an opportunity to offer an alibi.
Hang on! From the TV news crews populating the Halls of Justice, we learned that Oswald told us that he was a Patsy because he was in Russia, he told us he didn't shoot anybody, he complained about legal representation, he agreed that he was inside at the time, so if he had a realistic alibi he would be shouting this from the rooftops! And let's remember he was even given the World's stage in a Midnight Press conference and he didn't say squat about an effective alibi because he never had one, because as we all know Oswald was in the Sniper's nest firing shots into the Limo and specifically into Kennedy and Connally.
JohnM
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I see John has just posted in another thread, so his usual "excuse" that he has a life doesn't apply.
A couple of days ago I asked him why I should take a 45 year old memory by Styles more seriously than a contradictory statement she made years earlier and a statement Adams made to the FBI two days after the event?
John's reply (so far);
Go figure!
I see John has just posted in another thread, so his usual "excuse" that he has a life doesn't apply.
Sorry Martin, because I was busy having a "life" I just saw this post! ;)
Anyway, I've explained that based on the evidence, my reasoning for why I think the way that I do, but off the top of my head, here we go again.
1. The passenger elevator was much closer and ended up very close to Elm street.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHgLggVX/tsbd-4th-floor-plan.jpg)
2. The "action" that Adams says in her Lane interview that she was seeking was on Elm street.
3. Lovelady and Shelley were back in the building much later.
4. The Policeman ordering Adams back to her building was unlikely if the confrontation happened within a couple of minutes after the assassination.
5. When Adams reentered the building she took the most convenient method back to the 4th floor, I.E. the passenger elevator, meaning that initially while being on the 1st floor, she didn't run to the back of the building and use the stairs or the Freight elevator.
6. Garner didn't know where the girls went but she immediately went to the rear stairs/freight elevator instead of the much closer passenger elevator? WHY?
7. Garner tells Ernest that the reason she immediately left the window was to get something from the rear storage area, another change of story, and again why would she go back to the stairs/elevator and not use either but just hang around? Especially when the most significant event of her entire life was unfolding directly in front of her very eyes? WHY?
8. The back of the building in this case was basically nothing interesting and a far cry from the place of "action"!
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFRfV5K1/TEXAS-SCHOOL-BOOK-DEPOSITORY-aerial-map.jpg)
9. "Immediately" is definitely quite a bit shorter than 15-30 seconds.
10. Truly and Baker never see Adams and Styles.
And even if Adams did "immediately" run to the rear stairs, that just means that she was ahead of Oswald, so which ever way you slice it, all roads lead to Oswald being as guilty as sin!
JohnM
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Hang on! From the TV news crews populating the Halls of Justice, we learned that Oswald told us that he was a Patsy because he was in Russia, he told us he didn't shoot anybody, he complained about legal representation, he agreed that he was inside at the time, so if he had a realistic alibi he would be shouting this from the rooftops! And let's remember he was even given the World's stage in a Midnight Press conference and he didn't say squat about an effective alibi because he never had one, because as we all know Oswald was in the Sniper's nest firing shots into the Limo and specifically into Kennedy and Connally.
JohnM
So, just because Oswald didn't do what you expected him to do (i.e. offer an alibi in two short public appearances) you conclude that he didn't have an alibi?
Really? How superficial?
we all know Oswald was in the Sniper's nest firing shots into the Limo and specifically into Kennedy and Connally.
We all know that? LOL
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Sorry Martin, because I was busy having a "life" I just saw this post! ;)
Anyway, I've explained that based on the evidence, my reasoning for why I think the way that I do, but off the top of my head, here we go again.
1. The passenger elevator was much closer and ended up very close to Elm street.
2. The "action" that Adams says in her Lane interview that she was seeking was on Elm street.
3. Lovelady and Shelley were back in the building much later.
4. The Policeman ordering Adams back to her building was unlikely if the confrontation happened within a couple of minutes after the assassination.
5. When Adams reentered the building she took the most convenient method back to the 4th floor, I.E. the passenger elevator, meaning that initially while being on the 1st floor, she didn't run to the back of the building and use the stairs or the Freight elevator.
6. Garner didn't know where the girls went but she immediately went to the rear stairs/freight elevator instead of the much closer passenger elevator? WHY?
7. Garner tells Ernest that the reason she immediately left the window was to get something from the rear storage area, another change of story, and again why would she go back to the stairs/elevator and not use either but just hang around? Especially when the most significant event of her entire life was unfolding directly in front of her very eyes? WHY?
8. The back of the building in this case was basically nothing interesting and a far cry from the place of "action"!
9. "Immediately" is definitely quite a bit shorter than 15-30 seconds.
10. Truly and Baker never see Adams and Styles.
And even if Adams did "immediately" run to the rear stairs, that just means that she was ahead of Oswald, so which ever way you slice it, all roads lead to Oswald being as guilty as sin!
JohnM
Sorry Martin, because I was busy having a "life" I just saw this post! ;)
Yeah sure.... or you just needed a bit of time to come up with some sort of an "answer". Btw, what's it like to have a pretended "life"? I'm asking because I have an actual life (see the difference) and wouldn't know what a "life" would be like.
Nothing of the above fairytale speculative nonsense really answers my question, which was;
But ok, let's be open minded; tell me why I should take a 45 year old memory by Styles more seriously than a contradictory statement she made years earlier and a statement Adams made to the FBI two days after the event?
All it really does is vaguely infer that you prefer Styles' 45 year old memory because it fits in with a bogus reasoning that you have come up with which, of course, does not match the actual evidence at all.
It is clear that you are in fact the one who hasn't got an open mind. But then again, what else is new?
And even if Adams did "immediately" run to the rear stairs, that just means that she was ahead of Oswald, so which ever way you slice it, all roads lead to Oswald being as guilty as sin!
And this gives your entire game away. Just like the WC before you, you desperately need to somehow explain how Oswald could have come down the stairs unnoticed within 75 seconds after the shots were fired.
To achieve that goal, you are willing to ignore known facts, call witnesses liars and fabricate a fictitious narrative based on opinions, speculation, assumptions, which doesn't work in a timeline that takes all the known facts in consideration.
This is what the key points of evidence actually say;
1. Adams and Styles said they went down the stairs at the back of the building. There is no reason to doubt that statement.
2. Shelley and Lovelady ran to the parking lot west of the building and when they got there, about 2 minutes after the shots, they saw police men checking cars. The photo you have posted shows the car park and the location where Shelley and Lovelady said they were.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
3. Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the steps of the front door entrance. Sawyer arrived there at between 12:34 and 12:36.
4. Styles re-entered the building before it was sealed off. The building was sealed off when Sawyer arrived back from a short run to the 4th floor at around 12:37.
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
Try working these known facts into a timeline that has Adams and Styles not leaving the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots.
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Oswald offered no alibi
Wait just a second.
Oswald never had an opportunity to offer an alibi. As there is no verbatim record of what Oswald actually said during his four interrogations before he was killed, we will never know what Oswald could have provided as an alibi.
this is correct Martin . Oswald never offered an alibi , certainly not on film .according to the interrogation notes he stated several times that he ate alone , but as you correctly point out we only have the DPD (fbi etc ) word for what he said in interrogation .
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I do, indeed, think that Oswald did exit the building via the front door. Is this a "proven" fact? No. But it is certainly the most reasonable inference to be made from the available evidence (mainly based on the testimony of Mrs. Reid, who saw Oswald walking toward the FRONT stairs on the 2nd floor at about 12:32).
And since we KNOW that Oswald (who was no doubt attempting to get out of that building as quickly as he could following the shooting which was carried out with HIS RIFLE from the sixth floor) did exit the building very soon after the shooting, it doesn't make very much sense for him to go down the front stairs (which is the direction he was headed when Reid saw him), but then reverse his direction and go all the way to the back of the building again so he could exit via the Loading Dock door (which, IMO, would look more suspicious to anyone who might happen to see him leave by that back door right after a Presidential assassination attempt).
So the "reasonable inference" reached by the Warren Commission (and by David R. Von Pein of the Hoosier State) is that Lee H. Oswald very likely departed the Book Depository via the front entrance at about 12:33 PM CST on November 22nd. Your opinion may vary. But if it does vary, it's certainly not going to be nearly as "reasonable" as the "front door" inference.
And, btw, in this thread itself, I never said a word about Oswald leaving by the "front door". All I said was this:
".... Leaving the TSBD Building within about three minutes of the Presidential shooting and then proceeding to walk several blocks east on Elm Street in order to get on a bus that he only stayed on for a matter of a few minutes before getting off and catching a cab at the Greyhound bus terminal (which was likely the only time in his life that Lee Oswald paid for a taxicab ride while in the United States of America)."
I'll accept your apology in advance. ;)
i offer no apology for stating the very obvious . which is that LN of which you are one push the lone nut warren commission version of events . and as can be seen in your own post david you dont deny that you think he left via the front door 3 minutes after the shooting , indeed you offer that that it is the MOST REASONABLE INFERENCE . so for what reason would i need to offer an apology ? .
but again not one single witness is there in support of oswald leaving via the front door within 3 minutes . Mrs reid never saw what route Oswald took in leaving the building . but is interesting that you would cite her in this case . given that she has Oswald wearing only a white tee shirt not the famous brown shirt . not only that she said Oswald was carrying the coke that LN deny he was holding seconds earlier when baker encountered him .
Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a COKE and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door?
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.
do you think the lady you just cited is problematic at all to your stance and version of events you are pushing ? .
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"he was even given the World's stage in a Midnight Press conference and he didn't say squat about an effective alibi because he never had one, because as we all know Oswald was in the Sniper's nest firing shots into the Limo and specifically into Kennedy and Connally. " Mr mytton
he could equally have been sat alone eating in the lunchroom as per the interrogation notes and also have no alibi .
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...so for what reason would I need to offer an apology?
I was kidding, Fergus. (Hence the smiley face.)
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He [LHO] could equally have sat alone eating in the lunchroom as per the interrogation notes and also have no alibi.
LHO sure was one unlucky S.O.B. on 11/22, wasn't he? He was probably the only employee in the entire building to not have a provable alibi for the exact time of the shooting. And it just so happens that all of the evidence points directly at him. And it also just so happens that he was seen by a policeman at the back of the building (near the stairs) within 2 minutes of the shooting. And it also just so happens that Oswald wasn't sitting down at a table eating lunch either. He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
As I said .... 11/22/63 was certainly NOT the luckiest of Fridays for Mr. Oswald.
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LHO sure was one unlucky S.O.B. on 11/22, wasn't he? He was probably the only employee in the entire building to not have a provable alibi for the exact time of the shooting. And it just so happens that all of the evidence points directly at him. And it also just so happens that he was seen by a policeman at the back of the building (near the stairs) within 2 minutes of the shooting. And it also just so happens that Oswald wasn't sitting down at a table eating lunch either. He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
As I said .... 11/22/63 was certainly NOT the luckiest of Fridays for Mr. Oswald.
He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
Actually he wasn't seen by Truly at all. Truly was already on his way to the 3rd floor when Baker arrived on the 2nd and saw Oswald in the lunchroom.
This means that Oswald must have arrived on the 2nd floor before Truly got there, which in turn means that he, for some reason waited until Baker got there to see him. I'm not sure how many seconds he would have had to wait, but it doesn't really matter. If Oswald came down from the 6th floor and got to the 2nd floor before Truly did, why would he hang around there for even 1 second, when all he had to do is go down the hall to the office area and walk out of the building?
Btw, David, I posted a comprehensive reply to your post and you seem to ignore it. Why is that?
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LHO sure was one unlucky S.O.B. on 11/22, wasn't he? He was probably the only employee in the entire building to not have a provable alibi for the exact time of the shooting. And it just so happens that all of the evidence points directly at him. And it also just so happens that he was seen by a policeman at the back of the building (near the stairs) within 2 minutes of the shooting. And it also just so happens that Oswald wasn't sitting down at a table eating lunch either. He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
As I said .... 11/22/63 was certainly NOT the luckiest of Fridays for Mr. Oswald.
And imagine the plan is to frame Oswald for the crime, but the conspirators allow Oswald to roam about the building where he could have been in the presence of others or even out on the street like everyone else at the time of the crime. Giving him an iron clad alibi. It's laughable to think that the conspirators would spend months framing Oswald for the crime but allow him to roam about having lunch in common areas of the building while they are framing him for the crime on the 6th floor. No reasonable person could ever entertain such nonsense.
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Sorry Martin, because I was busy having a "life" I just saw this post! ;)
Yeah sure.... or you just needed a bit of time to come up with some sort of an "answer". Btw, what's it like to have a pretended "life"? I'm asking because I have an actual life (see the difference) and wouldn't know what a "life" would be like.
Nothing of the above fairytale speculative nonsense really answers my question, which was;
All it really does is vaguely infer that you prefer Styles' 45 year old memory because it fits in with a bogus reasoning that you have come up with which, of course, does not match the actual evidence at all.
It is clear that you are in fact the one who hasn't got an open mind. But then again, what else is new?
And even if Adams did "immediately" run to the rear stairs, that just means that she was ahead of Oswald, so which ever way you slice it, all roads lead to Oswald being as guilty as sin!
And this gives your entire game away. Just like the WC before you, you desperately need to somehow explain how Oswald could have come down the stairs unnoticed within 75 seconds after the shots were fired.
To achieve that goal, you are willing to ignore known facts, call witnesses liars and fabricate a fictitious narrative based on opinions, speculation, assumptions, which doesn't work in a timeline that takes all the known facts in consideration.
This is what the key points of evidence actually say;
1. Adams and Styles said they went down the stairs at the back of the building. There is no reason to doubt that statement.
2. Shelley and Lovelady ran to the parking lot west of the building and when they got there, about 2 minutes after the shots, they saw police men checking cars. The photo you have posted shows the car park and the location where Shelley and Lovelady said they were.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
3. Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the steps of the front door entrance. Sawyer arrived there at between 12:34 and 12:36.
4. Styles re-entered the building before it was sealed off. The building was sealed off when Sawyer arrived back from a short run to the 4th floor at around 12:37.
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
Try working these known facts into a timeline that has Adams and Styles not leaving the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots.
Yawn!
Ok let's say that Adams and Styles "IMMEDIATELY" left their window, let's see where that takes us;
1. Adams hallucinated seeing Lovelady and Shelley.
2. Adams didn't see Truly and Baker, the invisible men.
3. Truly and Baker as they RAN across the 1st floor didn't say anything about seeing the invisible women.
4. The Policeman at the railroad tracks somehow within a minute or two, quickly moved behind the TSBD and after seeing Adams RUN from the crime scene tells Adams to return to the building but did absolutely NOTHING about these potential assassins not going back, and instead the Policeman lets the ladies flee the scene? Does that even make sense? Not to me it doesn't!
Now perhaps Adams and Styles were moving like the wind and left the first floor before Baker and Truly arrived, which only means that Oswald simply followed the ladies down the stairs. As I have been constantly telling you, your inability to separate facts from your biased fantasies is truly holding you back!
Btw you better produce a decent alternative to my evidence because otherwise there's no value in responding to your endlessly regurgitated barking at the Moon!
JohnM
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Yawn!
Ok let's say that Adams and Styles "IMMEDIATELY" left their window, let's see where that takes us;
1. Adams hallucinated seeing Lovelady and Shelley.
2. Adams didn't see Truly and Baker, the invisible men.
3. Truly and Baker as they RAN across the 1st floor didn't say anything about seeing the invisible women.
4. The Policeman at the railroad tracks somehow within a minute or two, quickly moved behind the TSBD and after seeing Adams RUN from the crime scene tells Adams to return to the building but did absolutely NOTHING about these potential assassins not going back, and instead the Policeman lets the ladies flee the scene? Does that even make sense? Not to me it doesn't!
Now perhaps Adams and Styles were moving like the wind and left the first floor before Baker and Truly arrived, which only means that Oswald simply followed the ladies down the stairs. As I have been constantly telling you, your inability to separate facts from your biased fantasies is truly holding you back!
Btw you better produce a decent alternative to my evidence because otherwise there's no value in responding to your endlessly regurgitated barking at the Moon!
JohnM
1. Adams hallucinated seeing Lovelady and Shelley.
No, she saw Lovelady and Shelley, but where they were about two to three minutes after the shots; at the railway yard west of the building. She just misremembered where she saw them
2. Adams didn't see Truly and Baker, the invisible men.
True, they missed eachother by seconds.
3. Truly and Baker as they RAN across the 1st floor didn't say anything about seeing the invisible women.
How can anybody see "invisible women"?... but yes, they missed the women by seconds
4. The Policeman at the railroad tracks somehow within a minute or two, quickly moved behind the TSBD and after seeing Adams RUN from the crime scene tells Adams to return to the building but did absolutely NOTHING about these potential assassins not going back, and instead the Policeman lets the ladies flee the scene? Does that even make sense? Not to me it doesn't!
Who said the policeman who told Adams to go back inside the building was "behind the TSBD"?
What makes you think that the police man considered Adams and Styles as "potential assassins" when Baker did not consider Oswald to be a "potential killer" and let him go?
Now perhaps Adams and Styles were moving like the wind and left the first floor before Baker and Truly arrived, which only means that Oswald simply followed the ladies down the stairs. As I have been constantly telling you, your inability to separate facts from your biased fantasies is truly holding you back!
Hilarious. Adams and Styles heard nobody else on the stairs and Garner did not see anybody on the 4th floor between Adams and Styles going down and Truly and Baker coming up.
Btw it's not a fact that Oswald came down the stairs at all, it's a figment of your imagination, for which you can not present a shred of evidence.
Btw you better produce a decent alternative to my evidence because otherwise there's no value in responding to your endlessly regurgitated barking at the Moon!
I don't need to produce an alternative to your fictional BS, when you are completely unable to fit your bogus claims about Adams and Styles into the facts based timeline I have presented earlier.
But I can understand why you would want to run away from an argument you already know you can't win! :D :D :D :D
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He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
Actually he wasn't seen by Truly at all. Truly was already on his way to the 3rd floor when Baker arrived on the 2nd and saw Oswald in the lunchroom.
This means that Oswald must have arrived on the 2nd floor before Truly got there, which in turn means that he, for some reason waited until Baker got there to see him. I'm not sure how many seconds he would have had to wait, but it doesn't really matter. If Oswald came down from the 6th floor and got to the 2nd floor before Truly did, why would he hang around there for even 1 second, when all he had to do is go down the hall to the office area and walk out of the building?
Btw, David, I posted a comprehensive reply to your post and you seem to ignore it. Why is that?
Oswald didn't expect to see the Police Officer!
Truly was YELLING up the elevator shaft, so Oswald quickly ducked into the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."
Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.
I called upstairs , "Turn loose the elevator."
Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?
Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.
Then after Truly ran past and up the stairs, it's obvious that Oswald started to open the door and saw Officer Baker.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
Then Oswald thinking quickly and not wanting to appear suspicious proceeded into the lunchroom and as Baker says, Oswald was Hurrying!
Mr. DULLES - Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind?
Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.
Mr. BELIN - What door number on that?
Mr. BAKER - This would be 23.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And at that position there he was already down here some 20 feet away from me.
JohnM
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1. Adams hallucinated seeing Lovelady and Shelley.
No, she saw Lovelady and Shelley, but where they are about two to three minutes after the shots; at the railway yard west of the building. She just misremembered where she saw them
2. Adams didn't see Truly and Baker, the invisible men.
True, they missed eachother by seconds.
3. Truly and Baker as they RAN across the 1st floor didn't say anything about seeing the invisible women.
How can anybody see "invisible women"?... but yes, they missed the women by seconds
4. The Policeman at the railroad tracks somehow within a minute or two, quickly moved behind the TSBD and after seeing Adams RUN from the crime scene tells Adams to return to the building but did absolutely NOTHING about these potential assassins not going back, and instead the Policeman lets the ladies flee the scene? Does that even make sense? Not to me it doesn't!
Who said the policeman who told Adams to go back inside the building was "behind the TSBD"?
What makes you think that the police man considered Adams and Styles as "potential assassins" when Baker did not consider Oswald to be a "potential killer" and let him go?
Now perhaps Adams and Styles were moving like the wind and left the first floor before Baker and Truly arrived, which only means that Oswald simply followed the ladies down the stairs. As I have been constantly telling you, your inability to separate facts from your biased fantasies is truly holding you back!
Hilarious. Adams and Styles heard nobody else on the stairs and Garner did not see anybody on the 4th floor between Adams and Styles going down and Truly and Baker coming up.
Btw it's not a fact that Oswald came down the stairs at all, it's a figment of your imagination, for which you can not present a shred of evidence.
Btw you better produce a decent alternative to my evidence because otherwise there's no value in responding to your endlessly regurgitated barking at the Moon!
I don't need to produce an alternative to your fictional BS, when you are completely unable to fit your bogus claims about Adams and Styles into the facts based timeline I have presented earlier.
But I can understand why you would want to run away from an argument you already know you can't win! :D :D :D :D
"misremembered" LOLOLOLOL!
JohnM
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Oswald didn't expect to see the Police Officer!
Truly was YELLING up the elevator shaft, so Oswald quickly ducked into the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."
Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.
I called upstairs , "Turn loose the elevator."
Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?
Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.
Then after Truly ran past and up the stairs, it's obvious that Oswald started to open the door and saw Officer Baker.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
Then Oswald thinking quickly and not wanting to appear suspicious proceeded into the lunchroom and as Baker says, Oswald was Hurrying!
Mr. DULLES - Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind?
Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.
Mr. BELIN - What door number on that?
Mr. BAKER - This would be 23.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And at that position there he was already down here some 20 feet away from me.
JohnM
BS.. According to the LNs, Oswald had just killed Kennedy and wanted to get out of the building as soon as he could. That doesn't include hanging around at the 2nd floor lunchroom, when he could have continued to walk through the office space and out of the front door.
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"misremembered" LOLOLOLOL!
JohnM
So, only witnesses you say what you like can't misremember. Is that what you are saying?
After coming down the stairs and leaving the TSBD at the loading dock, Adams and Styles ran to the railway track where police officers were already checking cars and where Shelley and Lovelady happened to be! Their testimony puts them there!
They were the first men that she knew who Adams saw after leaving the building. After Jim Leavelle's unanounced visit at her home in February 1964, in which he told a massive lie, the story morphed to Adams seeing both men at the bottom of the stairs, when the testimony of both men makes that a physical impossibility.
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BS.. According to the LNs, Oswald had just killed Kennedy and wanted to get out of the building as soon as he could. That doesn't include hanging around at the 2nd floor lunchroom, when he could have continued to walk through the office space and out of the front door.
Where did I say Oswald was "hanging around"??
1. After Oswald heard Truly YELLING up the elevator shaft Oswald immediately headed for the lunchroom.
2. Then after Oswald saw Truly run past, Oswald then was going to continue down the stairs.
3. But unfortunately for Oswald as he was opening the door, he unexpectedly saw a Police Officer.
4. Oswald then had two choices, hurriedly move into the relative safety of the Lunchroom or hurriedly move across the 2nd floor and through the office area and how does Oswald explain why he is in the Office because as Reid the clerical supervisor later politely explained "I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time?"
5. So being left with these two options, Oswald decided to move to the lunchroom.
6. After seeing a Police man going up the stairs, Oswald had no idea if any more Police were in that vicinity, so he made the decision to immediately flee out through the Office area.
7. At no point did Oswald just "hang around"!
JohnM
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They were the first men that she knew who Adams saw after leaving the building. After Jim Leavelle's unanounced visit at her home in February 1964, in which he told a massive lie, the story morphed to Adams seeing both men at the bottom of the stairs, when the testimony of both men makes that a physical impossibility.
So Adams was not only guilty of misremembering, but she was also easily led? Interesting!
JohnM
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Where did I say Oswald was "hanging around"??
1. After Oswald heard Truly YELLING up the elevator shaft Oswald immediately headed for the lunchroom.
2. Then after Oswald saw Truly run past, Oswald then was going to continue down the stairs.
3. But unfortunately for Oswald as he was opening the door, he unexpectedly saw a Police Officer.
4. Oswald then had two choices, hurriedly move into the relative safety of the Lunchroom or hurriedly move across the 2nd floor and through the office area and how does Oswald explain why he is in the Office because as Reid the clerical supervisor later politely explained "I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time?"
5. So being left with these two options, Oswald decided to move to the lunchroom.
6. After seeing a Police man going up the stairs, Oswald had no idea if any more Police were in that vicinity, so he made the decision to immediately flee out through the Office area.
7. At no point did Oswald just "hang around"!
JohnM
Wow. Did Oswald tell you this or did you just make it up?
The bottom line is that as soon as Oswald walked through the door to exit the area where the stairs are, he had two options; (1) carry on straight and go into the lunchroom or (2) go left and go down the hallway to the office space and leave the building through the front door. If he was on the run, he had no reason to spend even one second in the lunchroom!
But nice story... really!
4. Oswald then had two choices, hurriedly move into the relative safety of the Lunchroom or hurriedly move across the 2nd floor and through the office area and how does Oswald explain why he is in the Office because as Reid the clerical supervisor later politely explained "I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time?"
Do you ever think before you write? So, at first he's worried that he can't explain why he is in the office area but then he walks there anyway?
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Wow. Did Oswald tell you this or did you just make it up?
The bottom line is that as soon as Oswald walked through the door to exit the area where the stairs are, he had two options; (1) carry on straight and go into the lunchroom or (2) go left and go down the hallway to the office space and leave the building through the front door. If he was on the run, he had no reason to spend even one second in the lunchroom!
But nice story... really!
4. Oswald then had two choices, hurriedly move into the relative safety of the Lunchroom or hurriedly move across the 2nd floor and through the office area and how does Oswald explain why he is in the Office because as Reid the clerical supervisor later politely explained "I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time?"
Do you ever think before you write? So, at first he's worried that he can't explain why he is in the office area but then he walks there anyway?
Do you ever think before you write?
Yes.
Do you ever read before you post?
6. After seeing a Police man going up the stairs, Oswald had no idea if any more Police were in that vicinity, so he made the decision to immediately flee out through the Office area.
JohnM
The immediate threat was Baker and Truly, so Oswald hurried into the neutral Lunchroom which would be easier to explain to Truly, because as Reid says, "I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time?"! It really isn't that difficult.
JohnM
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Yes.
Do you ever read before you post?
The immediate threat was Baker and Truly, so Oswald hurried into the neutral Lunchroom which would be easier to explain to Truly, because as Reid says, "I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time?"! It really isn't that difficult.
JohnM
Do you ever read before you post?
Of course. How else would I have known that you were making up a bogus story?
Oswald didn't see Baker "as he was opening the door" as you falsely claimed. He was already at the other side of the door when Baker came up and saw him through a window in the door.
Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
In other words, by the time Baker saw him, the door was closed and Oswald had his back to it as he walked into the lunchroom. That's why your little fairytale isn't credible. If he had been on the run, Oswald could have just turned right and go into the corridor and Baker would never have seen him.
Instead of making up stuff, why don't you try to be useful for once and reply to this question of mine;
This is what the key points of evidence actually say;
1. Adams and Styles said they went down the stairs at the back of the building. There is no reason to doubt that statement.
2. Shelley and Lovelady ran to the parking lot west of the building and when they got there, about 2 minutes after the shots, they saw police men checking cars. The photo you have posted shows the car park and the location where Shelley and Lovelady said they were.
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
3. Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the steps of the front door entrance. Sawyer arrived there at between 12:34 and 12:36.
4. Styles re-entered the building before it was sealed off. The building was sealed off when Sawyer arrived back from a short run to the 4th floor at around 12:37.
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
Try working these known facts into a timeline that has Adams and Styles not leaving the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots.
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The facts and common sense tell us beyond any doubt that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the moment of the assassination whether in a CT or LN scenario. The LNer conclusion is based on the evidence Oswald left. The shots were fired at 12:30 from the 6th floor. Oswald left his prints on the SN boxes, bag, and rifle. Fired bullet casings from his rifle are found by the window from which multiple witnesses saw the rifle/gunman or heard the shots from directly above their head. Oswald has no credible alibi for this moment but is seen a couple minutes later in the 2nd floor lunchroom. The evidence places him on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later. The only apparent means for him to go from point A to B is down the stairs. Because it was done without him being seen, that proves beyond any doubt that it could be done. It can not only be implied from the known facts and evidence but MUST have been what happened. All the pedantic nitpicking in the world in a desperate attempt to suggest doubt doesn't change the underlying facts and evidence. If Oswald fired the shot at 12:30, and was seen on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that alone proves he was able to get down the stair unnoticed. There is no further prove of that necessary. CTer can disput the evidence that Oswald was the shooter, but not that he made his way down the stairs unnoticed if he was the shooter in the LN scenario.
In the CTer scenario in which Oswald is being framed, there is absolutely no plausible scenario where the conspirators would allow Oswald to roam about the building. It is absurd to suggest that after all the planning and risk to frame Oswald for the assassination of the president, that the conspirators would leave the most important thing to chance - whether Oswald would be in the presence of anyone who could give him an alibi or even be photographed on the street. How would they even know he was coming to work that day since he had made the visit to the Paine house where he usually spent the weekend? What does that tell us? That Oswald's movements in minutes leading up to the assassination would have been under the control of the conspirators either by choice or force. If Oswald had been forced by someone to stay on the 6th floor out of the presence of his co-workers, he most certainly would have shouted that to the heavens. Particularly after he was arrested for the crime. There is no logical scenario where he is taken by force to the 6th floor and never mentions it to anyone. That leaves Oswald perhaps working with the conspirators in some manner and voluntarily being on the 6th floor. Either way there is no doubt in this conspiracy scenario that Oswald is not in the lunchroom or roaming about the common areas of building of his own free will at the moment of the assassination. He is on the 6th floor. That means he made it down the stairs unnoticed since he is encountered there a couple minutes later. Once a thing happens, the odds against it happening no longer matter (even if they are accurately assessed which is not the case here with our pedantic Inspector Clouseau's analyzing the witness movements down to the second to reach a desired conclusion). If the facts, circumstances, evidence and logic all confirm that Oswald was in place A at 12:30 and place B a couple of minutes later and we know the only way to done so was down the stairs, that proves he went down the stairs unnoticed. A time machine is not required. Nor is it necessary to rebut laughable timelines based on witness recollections that would need to be accurate to within a few seconds. That is just going down another pointless rabbit hole.
The CTer mantra is to fixate on a single aspect of the case and ignore the implications of everything else including their own argument having any validity. How would they square Oswald sitting in the lunchroom in plain sight of anyone who passed by or perhaps deciding to go watch the motorcade on the street like anyone else with a plan to frame him as the 6th floor assassin? We will never know because they realize the absurdity of the consequences of their theories having any validity and refuse to extend the discussion beyond one single aspect. The focus is solely on a second-by-second analysis of witness movements as though there is perfect witness recollection, and all events were timed with scientific perfection.
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The facts and common sense tell us beyond any doubt that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the moment of the assassination whether in a CT or LN scenario. The LNer conclusion is based on the evidence Oswald left. The shots were fired at 12:30 from the 6th floor. Oswald left his prints on the SN boxes, bag, and rifle. Fired bullet casings from his rifle are found by the window from which multiple witnesses saw the rifle/gunman or heard the shots from directly above their head. Oswald has no credible alibi for this moment but is seen a couple minutes later in the 2nd floor lunchroom. The evidence places him on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later. The only apparent means for him to go from point A to B is down the stairs. Because it was done without him being seen, that proves beyond any doubt that it could be done. It can not only be implied from the known facts and evidence but MUST have been what happened. All the pedantic nitpicking in the world in a desperate attempt to suggest doubt doesn't change the underlying facts and evidence. If Oswald fired the shot at 12:30, and was seen on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that alone proves he was able to get down the stair unnoticed. There is no further prove of that necessary. CTer can disput the evidence that Oswald was the shooter, but not that he made his way down the stairs unnoticed if he was the shooter in the LN scenario.
In the CTer scenario in which Oswald is being framed, there is absolutely no plausible scenario where the conspirators would allow Oswald to roam about the building. It is absurd to suggest that after all the planning and risk to frame Oswald for the assassination of the president, that the conspirators would leave the most important thing to chance - whether Oswald would be in the presence of anyone who could give him an alibi or even be photographed on the street. How would they even know he was coming to work that day since he had made the visit to the Paine house where he usually spent the weekend? What does that tell us? That Oswald's movements in minutes leading up to the assassination would have been under the control of the conspirators either by choice or force. If Oswald had been forced by someone to stay on the 6th floor out of the presence of his co-workers, he most certainly would have shouted that to the heavens. Particularly after he was arrested for the crime. There is no logical scenario where he is taken by force to the 6th floor and never mentions it to anyone. That leaves Oswald perhaps working with the conspirators in some manner and voluntarily being on the 6th floor. Either way there is no doubt in this conspiracy scenario that Oswald is not in the lunchroom or roaming about the common areas of building of his own free will at the moment of the assassination. He is on the 6th floor. That means he made it down the stairs unnoticed since he is encountered there a couple minutes later. Once a thing happens, the odds against it happening no longer matter (even if they are accurately assessed which is not the case here with our pedantic Inspector Clouseau's analyzing the witness movements down to the second to reach a desired conclusion). If the facts, circumstances, evidence and logic all confirm that Oswald was in place A at 12:30 and place B a couple of minutes later and we know the only way to done so was down the stairs, that proves he went down the stairs unnoticed. A time machine is not required. Nor is it necessary to rebut laughable timelines based on witness recollections that would need to be accurate to within a few seconds. That is just going down another pointless rabbit hole.
The CTer mantra is to fixate on a single aspect of the case and ignore the implications of everything else including their own argument having any validity. How would they square Oswald sitting in the lunchroom in plain sight of anyone who passed by or perhaps deciding to go watch the motorcade on the street like anyone else with a plan to frame him as the 6th floor assassin? We will never know because they realize the absurdity of the consequences of their theories having any validity and refuse to extend the discussion beyond one single aspect. The focus is solely on a second-by-second analysis of witness movements as though there is perfect witness recollection, and all events were timed with scientific perfection.
So many words wasted. Just because you can't figure out an alternative scenario doesn't mean that your fairytale scenario must be true.
The facts and common sense tell us beyond any doubt that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the moment of the assassination whether in a CT or LN scenario.
No they don't. The only thing common sense tells us that you just can't provide actual evidence for 99% for your claims assumptions!
The LNer conclusion is based on the evidence Oswald left.
Too bad you can't actually prove that Oswald left any evidence at all. You just assume he did, just like you assume that he was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired.
The evidence places him on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.
No it doesn't.... unless you consider the idiotic statement below to somehow be "evidence";
"The evidence that Oswald came down the stairs after the last shot is.... that it happened - "Richard Smith" :D :D :D :D
It seems you still haven't understood just how stupid that remark, you made a while ago, really is, so let me try to help you.
Your circular logic works like this;
We know that Oswald was on the 6th floor, because he left evidence behind and we know that Oswald left evidence behind because he was on the 6th floor. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Don't you ever get tired of your own BS?
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Oswald offered no alibi , he said he ate alone . but again we have a person claiming things to be proven FACT when that simply is not the case .Brewer in testimony stated that he asked postal if she saw a man who he described to her go in ,according to brewer she said she did not see any such man sneak in . postal in her testimony not only said she saw the man sneak in but that she watched him walk along jeffferson and turn right and sneak in . that is quite a contradiction . who was right ? who was wrong ? , did one lie ? .in addition theater witnesses placed oswald in the theater quite a time before the brewer sighting . some 30 minutes prior .
i am not aware of any iron clad proof that the light color jacket found was oswalds . it was the wrong size , it was laundered when Marina did all Oswalds washing . it is difficult to place any stock in claims by marina when we know there was atleast by inference a threat to deport her if she did not co operate . this is supported by Robert Oswald an LN witness .
did every single witness within the building hear shots ? .
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
so why then would you infer that Oswald would have had to naturally hear shots ? .
i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
[/quote
Ok, why does all that matter, LHO is still arrested in the theater with his gun, and he had no coat even though he left the boarding house with one, he had no ticket but of all things, he did have his pistol.
Troy West is not even remotely the same. Oswald came down to see what the commotion was about. He obviously heard something to want to see what the commotion was about. West did not even know anything was going on at all. Maybe you are insinuating West shot JFK with LHO's rifle.
Don’t make up your own assassination and own statements. He came down to see what the commotion was about. The rest is all you.
It would have been hard for him to not hear the shots. His ear was next to the rifle. LHO’s fingerprints were all over the evidence. The only person with his fingerprints on every piece of evidence found on the sixth floor.
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The facts and common sense tell us beyond any doubt that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the moment of the assassination whether in a CT or LN scenario. The LNer conclusion is based on the evidence Oswald left. The shots were fired at 12:30 from the 6th floor. Oswald left his prints on the SN boxes, bag, and rifle. Fired bullet casings from his rifle are found by the window from which multiple witnesses saw the rifle/gunman or heard the shots from directly above their head. Oswald has no credible alibi for this moment but is seen a couple minutes later in the 2nd floor lunchroom. The evidence places him on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later. The only apparent means for him to go from point A to B is down the stairs. Because it was done without him being seen, that proves beyond any doubt that it could be done. It can not only be implied from the known facts and evidence but MUST have been what happened. All the pedantic nitpicking in the world in a desperate attempt to suggest doubt doesn't change the underlying facts and evidence. If Oswald fired the shot at 12:30, and was seen on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that alone proves he was able to get down the stair unnoticed. There is no further prove of that necessary. CTer can disput the evidence that Oswald was the shooter, but not that he made his way down the stairs unnoticed if he was the shooter in the LN scenario.
In the CTer scenario in which Oswald is being framed, there is absolutely no plausible scenario where the conspirators would allow Oswald to roam about the building. It is absurd to suggest that after all the planning and risk to frame Oswald for the assassination of the president, that the conspirators would leave the most important thing to chance - whether Oswald would be in the presence of anyone who could give him an alibi or even be photographed on the street. How would they even know he was coming to work that day since he had made the visit to the Paine house where he usually spent the weekend? What does that tell us? That Oswald's movements in minutes leading up to the assassination would have been under the control of the conspirators either by choice or force. If Oswald had been forced by someone to stay on the 6th floor out of the presence of his co-workers, he most certainly would have shouted that to the heavens. Particularly after he was arrested for the crime. There is no logical scenario where he is taken by force to the 6th floor and never mentions it to anyone. That leaves Oswald perhaps working with the conspirators in some manner and voluntarily being on the 6th floor. Either way there is no doubt in this conspiracy scenario that Oswald is not in the lunchroom or roaming about the common areas of building of his own free will at the moment of the assassination. He is on the 6th floor. That means he made it down the stairs unnoticed since he is encountered there a couple minutes later. Once a thing happens, the odds against it happening no longer matter (even if they are accurately assessed which is not the case here with our pedantic Inspector Clouseau's analyzing the witness movements down to the second to reach a desired conclusion). If the facts, circumstances, evidence and logic all confirm that Oswald was in place A at 12:30 and place B a couple of minutes later and we know the only way to done so was down the stairs, that proves he went down the stairs unnoticed. A time machine is not required. Nor is it necessary to rebut laughable timelines based on witness recollections that would need to be accurate to within a few seconds. That is just going down another pointless rabbit hole.
The CTer mantra is to fixate on a single aspect of the case and ignore the implications of everything else including their own argument having any validity. How would they square Oswald sitting in the lunchroom in plain sight of anyone who passed by or perhaps deciding to go watch the motorcade on the street like anyone else with a plan to frame him as the 6th floor assassin? We will never know because they realize the absurdity of the consequences of their theories having any validity and refuse to extend the discussion beyond one single aspect. The focus is solely on a second-by-second analysis of witness movements as though there is perfect witness recollection, and all events were timed with scientific perfection.
Good summary Richard, conspiracy minded people have to be the most frustrated people in the world. Every day they get up and post ridiculous nonsense in the hopes they will make a difference in the understanding of the JFK assassination, unfortunately they always come up short. You can clearly see how that is working out for them. They can’t even cast doubt about LHO, let alone exonerate LHO or better yet come up with a viable alternative to what is known. The evidence points to LHO and his ever changing story provided no alibi. Good point and exactly right, the second floor lunchroom encounter with Baker is the only proof of his whereabouts after the assassination. His own words place him coming down the stairs. There is his alibi he was upstairs shooting his gun. Whoops.
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LHO sure was one unlucky S.O.B. on 11/22, wasn't he? He was probably the only employee in the entire building to not have a provable alibi for the exact time of the shooting. And it just so happens that all of the evidence points directly at him. And it also just so happens that he was seen by a policeman at the back of the building (near the stairs) within 2 minutes of the shooting. And it also just so happens that Oswald wasn't sitting down at a table eating lunch either. He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
As I said .... 11/22/63 was certainly NOT the luckiest of Fridays for Mr. Oswald.
did Dougherty have an alibi ? after all he was by his own admission up on both 6th and 5th floors alone ? . i am in no way saying Dougherty did anything wrong here , it is just making a point . you say Oswald was alone and so had no alibi , and thus that is some sort of sign of guilt .but surely the same applies to Dougherty ? i mean in the sense that he also was alone and equally had no alibi .
certainly evidence (all be it much of it debatable ) points towards oswald , i have not denied that at all , not once .
you say " he was seen by a policeman at the back of the building (near the stairs) within 2 minutes of the shooting" and you emphasize STAIRS . but he was only seen by baker INSIDE THE LUNCHROOM . in fact Mr truly was running ahead of Baker by a floor . he had already ran up to the 3rd floor landing when Baker was going in the lunchroom supposedly splits seconds after Oswald entered it . that has to mean oswald was on the 3rd floor landing or on the stairs at the same time Mr truly was . but strangely Truly missed Oswald running or walking past him .
you say "And it also just so happens that Oswald wasn't sitting down at a table eating lunch either. He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom"
now that is a tad shall we say deceptive is it not david ? . Baker encountered Oswald at about 12.31 / 12.32 . but you refer to another incident atleast 10 minutes prior to this where Carolyn arnold said she saw Oswald in the lunchroom eating lunch alone sat in a booth . in the real world that we live in david would you think that it is at all possible that in an intervening 10 or so minute period that a person (who ever that person may be ) could have finished eating , and then got up and purchased a drink to wash it down ? .
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I was kidding, Fergus. (Hence the smiley face.)
i saw the smiley . so what about Mrs reid the witness you cited seeing Oswald only in a white tee shirt as he was leaving with COKE in hand ? . i am interested in your thoughts on this .
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And imagine the plan is to frame Oswald for the crime, but the conspirators allow Oswald to roam about the building where he could have been in the presence of others or even out on the street like everyone else at the time of the crime. Giving him an iron clad alibi. It's laughable to think that the conspirators would spend months framing Oswald for the crime but allow him to roam about having lunch in common areas of the building while they are framing him for the crime on the 6th floor. No reasonable person could ever entertain such nonsense.
the comment you quote above was in reply to my comment . and i at no time claimed one word of what you just said . i will happily leave the whacky theories to you ok ?.
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the comment you quote above was in reply to my comment . and i at no time claimed one word of what you just said . i will happily leave the whacky theories to you ok ?.
and i at no time claimed one word of what you just said
That's standard for Richard Smith. He always does that....
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Oswald offered no alibi , he said he ate alone . but again we have a person claiming things to be proven FACT when that simply is not the case .Brewer in testimony stated that he asked postal if she saw a man who he described to her go in ,according to brewer she said she did not see any such man sneak in . postal in her testimony not only said she saw the man sneak in but that she watched him walk along jeffferson and turn right and sneak in . that is quite a contradiction . who was right ? who was wrong ? , did one lie ? .in addition theater witnesses placed oswald in the theater quite a time before the brewer sighting . some 30 minutes prior .
i am not aware of any iron clad proof that the light color jacket found was oswalds . it was the wrong size , it was laundered when Marina did all Oswalds washing . it is difficult to place any stock in claims by marina when we know there was atleast by inference a threat to deport her if she did not co operate . this is supported by Robert Oswald an LN witness .
did every single witness within the building hear shots ? .
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
so why then would you infer that Oswald would have had to naturally hear shots ? .
i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
[/quote
Ok, why does all that matter, LHO is still arrested in the theater with his gun, and he had no coat even though he left the boarding house with one, he had no ticket but of all things, he did have his pistol.
Troy West is not even remotely the same. Oswald came down to see what the commotion was about. He obviously heard something to want to see what the commotion was about. West did not even know anything was going on at all. Maybe you are insinuating West shot JFK with LHO's rifle.
Don’t make up your own assassination and own statements. He came down to see what the commotion was about. The rest is all you.
It would have been hard for him to not hear the shots. His ear was next to the rifle. LHO’s fingerprints were all over the evidence. The only person with his fingerprints on every piece of evidence found on the sixth floor.
Oswald CAME DOWN TO SEE A COMMOTION ? he did ? . he came down from where to where to see this commotion ? please tell me i would like to know . are you also talking about what Harry holmes wrote BADLY in his notes ? . if so you are telling me what Holmes wrote not what Oswald provably said he did .
i wont even reply to your idiocy re west and jfk .
exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL .
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I wonder how long it will take before any LN can answer my facts-based question with something more substansive than made up claims and pure gibberish.
This is what the key points of evidence actually say;
1. Adams and Styles said they went down the stairs at the back of the building. There is no reason to doubt that statement.
2. Shelley and Lovelady ran to the parking lot west of the building and when they got there, about 2 minutes after the shots, they saw police men checking cars. The photo John Mytton has posted (in reply # 255) shows the car park and the location where Shelley and Lovelady said they were. Here is the photo;
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFRfV5K1/TEXAS-SCHOOL-BOOK-DEPOSITORY-aerial-map.jpg)
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
In this photo, which I borrowed from Marjan Rynkiewicz
(https://i.postimg.cc/43Gm9WyF/adams-styles-foster-barnett-osw-ald-shelley-lovelady-romack.jpg)
the location of Shelley and Lovelady is IMO very close to where their names are written.
Marjan also came up with a screenprint from Darnell which shows police officers at roughly the location marked with the name "Foster" in the photo above.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNwRWDbs/darnell-film-near-NW-cnr-of-TSBD.jpg)
So, we know where Shelley and Lovelady were standing, roughly 2 minutes after the shots, and where police officers were searching cars as Shelley said in his testimony
3. Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the steps of the front door entrance. Sawyer arrived there at between 12:34 and 12:36.
4. Styles re-entered the building before it was sealed off. The building was sealed off when Sawyer arrived back from a short run to the 4th floor at around 12:37.
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
Try working these known facts into a timeline that has Adams and Styles not leaving the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots.
Before taking her testimony, Belin told Adams he didn't believe a word of what she was saying. If the WC was indeed a fact finding exercise they could have taken testimony from Styles and Garner. And they could also find the officer who told Adams to return to the building. They had plenty of ways of finding out the truth, but they were not interested and tried to discredit Adams as a witness. Not even the most die hard LN can consider this to be normal investigatory practice.
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Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.
Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.
Oops! Another one bites the dust.
JohnM
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Do you ever read before you post?
Of course. How else would I have known that you were making up a bogus story?
Oswald didn't see Baker "as he was opening the door" as you falsely claimed. He was already at the other side of the door when Baker came up and saw him through a window in the door.
Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
In other words, by the time Baker saw him, the door was closed and Oswald had his back to it as he walked into the lunchroom. That's why your little fairytale isn't credible. If he had been on the run, Oswald could have just turned right and go into the corridor and Baker would never have seen him.
Instead of making up stuff, why don't you try to be useful for once and reply to this question of mine;
In other words, by the time Baker saw him, the door was closed....
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
JohnM
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Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.
Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.
Oops! Another one bites the dust.
JohnM
Hilarious...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dy2hLRPG/adams-styles-truly-baker.jpg)
Adams and Styles came down the stairs, turned left and walked through an open door onto the loading dock.
Unless Piper, who was sitting at the second window from the corner and next to the front entrance, was permanently watching the stairs, he could have easily missed them.
Piper's testimony clearly shows he was concentrating on Truly and Baker as they ran into the building, so unless Eddie had eyes in the back of his head, he had no idea what was going on at the stairs.
The only one who bites the dust is you, John.
You really need to try better, because this is childplay.
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Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
JohnM
Regardless if the door was completely shut or almost shut, the fact remains that Oswald was already through the doorway and not, as you previously falsely claimed "opening the door". He was in the corridor. One step to the right and Baker would not have seen him at all.
John, please, try to do better next time. This stuff is way too easy to debunk.
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Hilarious...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dy2hLRPG/adams-styles-truly-baker.jpg)
Adams and Styles came down the stairs, turned left and walked through an open door onto the loading dock.
Unless Piper, who was sitting at the second window from the corner and next to the front entrance, was permanently watching the stairs, he could have easily missed them.
Piper's testimony clearly shows he was concentrating on Truly and Baker as they ran into the building, so unless Eddie had eyes in the back of his head, he had no idea what was going on at the stairs.
The only one who bites the dust is you, John.
You really need to try better, because this is childplay.
....he(Piper) had no idea what was going on at the stairs.
Hahahahaha!
So the NOISY stairs which Garner could clearly hear somebody running down, and don't forget Adams also said she could hear people clomping up/down on the stairs, but now suddenly two women running down the stairs with three inch heels, couldn't be heard by Piper? Ouch!
Yes, this is child's play because you keep forgetting the evidence that was so important to you in your recent posts but suddenly is conveniently forgotten? Double Ouch!
Try Again! Thumb1:
JohnM
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Hahahahaha!
So the NOISY stairs which Garner could clearly hear somebody running down, and don't forget Adams also said she could hear people clomping up/down on the stairs, but now suddenly two women running down the stairs with three inch heels, couldn't be heard by Piper? Ouch!
Yes, this is child's play because you keep forgetting the evidence that was so important to you in your recent posts but suddenly is conveniently forgotten? Double Ouch!
Try Again! Thumb1:
JohnM
Were you born this obnoxious or did something happen to you to make you that way?
So the NOISY stairs which Garner could clearly hear somebody running down, and don't forget Adams also said she could hear people clomping up/down on the stairs, but now suddenly two women running down the stairs with three inch heels, couldn't be heard by Piper?
You can't be this stupid, can you? Garner was standing next to the stairs entrance and Adams and Styles were actually on the stairs. Piper was on the other side of the building.....
But let's turn that around, shall we? If Piper could hear people on the stairs from the other side of the building, then Garner, Adams and Styles would have most certainly heard Oswald coming down the stairs, if that really happened, right?
Yes, this is child's play because you keep forgetting the evidence that was so important to you in your recent posts but suddenly is conveniently forgotten? Double Ouch!
You argue like a 5 year old again. What evidence "that was so important" to me did I forget? Be precise.....or is that asking too much?
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Regardless if the door was completely shut or almost shut, the fact remains that Oswald was already through the doorway and not, as you previously falsely claimed "opening the door". He was in the corridor. One step to the right and Baker would not have seen him at all.
John, please, try to do better next time. This stuff is way too easy to debunk.
Huh? You're not making sense and you haven't debunked anything because you're not following the evidence!
1. Officer Baker says he might of seen the vestibule door close and Truly who was leading doesn't say anything about the door closing, and Baker definitely says he sees Oswald through the vestibule window.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ62DNqK/Through-lunch-door.gif)
2. Truly came up, round the corner, and started up the stairs yet Oswald was suspiciously lingering in the corridor till after Truly enters the stairwell leading up to the 3rd floor? Because if Oswald's true intention was to get a coke, Oswald would have been well away from the vestibule door window and out of Officer Baker's line of sight, before Officer Baker arrived on the 2nd floor.
Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65y78X2v/TSBD-2nd-floor-plan-crop.jpg)
3. During the time Truly travels from the exit of the stairs from the first floor, across to the entrance of the stairs leading up to the third floor and up a few stairs, Officer Baker still sees Oswald through the vestibule window in the corridor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W42TJGWH/Photo-wcd81-1-0145.jpg)
4. By the time Officer Baker reaches the vestibule door, Oswald has now decided to not "hang around" but Oswald is suspiciously hurrying out of the corridor and is now about 20 feet away from Officer Baker?
Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.
Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr8R3PK2/Photo-wcd81-1-0149.jpg)
Conclusion
Oswald would have heard Truly yelling up the stairs, so Oswald ducked into the vestibule corridor and waited for Truly to leave, then as Oswald was opening the door to continue down the stairs, Oswald unexpectedly saw Officer Baker through the Vestibule door window and Oswald in a blind panic hurriedly moved into the explainable neutral Lunchroom.
Every movement and action Oswald did on the 22nd was the product of a Murderer on the run, fleeing the two crime scenes!
JohnM
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Were you born this obnoxious or did something happen to you to make you that way?
So the NOISY stairs which Garner could clearly hear somebody running down, and don't forget Adams also said she could hear people clomping up/down on the stairs, but now suddenly two women running down the stairs with three inch heels, couldn't be heard by Piper?
You can't be this stupid, can you? Garner was standing next to the stairs entrance and Adams and Styles were actually on the stairs. Piper was on the other side of the building.....
But let's turn that around, shall we? If Piper could hear people on the stairs from the other side of the building, then Garner, Adams and Styles would have most certainly heard Oswald coming down the stairs, if that really happened, right?
Yes, this is child's play because you keep forgetting the evidence that was so important to you in your recent posts but suddenly is conveniently forgotten? Double Ouch!
You argue like a 5 year old again. What evidence "that was so important" to me did I forget? Be precise.....or is that asking too much?
Garner was standing next to the stairs entrance
Cite?
Piper was on the other side of the building.....
Cite?
then Garner, Adams and Styles would have most certainly heard Oswald coming down the stairs
Garner allegedly heard someone on the stairs but didn't know who!
Styles recalls that they logically went to the much closer Passenger Elevator.
And sorry, if Adams was on the stairs at the right time she would have not seen Lovelady and Shelley. Oops!
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Piper who was definitely there and you weren't and Piper conclusively testified that he didn't see Styles and Adams, this extra undeniable evidence has really got you stuck in the mud, hence all this bluster and Ad Hominin's. You are so predictable, every time you don't have an answer for the evidence you start with the aggressive nonsense!
Read even more evidence, that conclusively refutes Adams' "immediate" exit. LOL!
Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down---I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.
JohnM
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the comment you quote above was in reply to my comment . and i at no time claimed one word of what you just said . i will happily leave the whacky theories to you ok ?.
My comment wasn't in response to you. My comment was in response to a post from DVP which I quoted. But since you have interjected yourself. This is what you have said:
"[Oswald] could equally have been sat alone eating in the lunchroom as per the interrogation notes and also have no alibi."
That conclusion is laughable. Spin us a yarn, though, in which the conspirators say to themselves "we are going to go to the considerable risk and effort to frame Oswald for the assassination by leaving evidence that links him to the crime on the 6th floor but allow him to roam about the building at the moment of the assassination and even hang out in a common area like the lunch room where he could be encountered and given an alibi." It's absurd to suggest that any plot that involves framing Oswald as the assassin would not account for where he is at during the assassination. That would be #1 on the old Conspirators checklist. Any child could understand why. If left to his own free will. the most likely place Oswald would have been at that moment is on the street in the presence of his coworkers. If you are going to plant evidence framing Oswald for this crime, you have to be 100% sure Oswald doesn't have an alibi. That means the conspirators have to ensure that Oswald is not in some place like - wait for it - a lunchroom where he could be in the presence of anyone at the moment of the assassination.
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Based on the testimony of Adams, it appears to me that she and Styles didn’t go through the overhead door. But instead encountered Lovelady and Shelley near the east elevator, then went out the personnel door to the dock (as I show with the red hand-drawn line on this image):
(https://i.vgy.me/7emUsR.jpg)
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What about Mrs. Reid, the witness you cited, seeing Oswald only in a white tee shirt as he was leaving with COKE in hand? I am interested in your thoughts on this.
The "Coke" answer is quite simple:
Oswald bought the Coke AFTER his encounter with Truly/Baker. Not before.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
Re: Oswald's Shirts:
It's been my opinion for many years that Oswald probably wasn't wearing his brown outer shirt when he shot Kennedy. He was only wearing his white T-shirt at that moment. I think he used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he ran from the Sniper's Nest to the northwest stairway (to wipe off at least some of the prints on the rifle). He then quickly put on the brown shirt (but left it unbuttoned) at some point after he started to descend the staircase.
It makes the most sense to me that he likely put on the brown shirt while he was descending the stairs. But, with Mrs. Reid's testimony in mind, it could be that LHO was still holding the shirt in his hand when he passed Reid on the 2nd floor, and he only put the shirt on after leaving Reid's sight. Or, it could be that Oswald was wearing his unbuttoned brown shirt the whole time, but Reid just didn't notice it during her five-second encounter with the fleeing assassin.
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Oswald CAME DOWN TO SEE A COMMOTION ? he did ? . he came down from where to where to see this commotion ? please tell me i would like to know . are you also talking about what Harry holmes wrote BADLY in his notes ? . if so you are telling me what Holmes wrote not what Oswald provably said he did .
i wont even reply to your idiocy re west and jfk .
exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL .
Oswald CAME DOWN TO SEE A COMMOTION ? he did ? . he came down from where to where to see this commotion ? please tell me i would like to know . are you also talking about what Harry holmes wrote BADLY in his notes ? . if so you are telling me what Holmes wrote not what Oswald provably said he did .
You knew “commotion” was from Harry Holmes, why the act, what is the confusion about? The part where he came downstairs seems to upset you. It must be because the third and fourth floors are offices. The fifth floor was where Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarmin, and Harold Norman were at. The sixth floor is where he left his rifle and finger prints on boxes, bags, and rifles. I bet it is the 6th floor evidence that is upsetting.
i wont even reply to your idiocy re west and jfk,
We must think alike, idiocy is exactly what I thought when I read your comparison of West to LHO. There was no relevance at all.
exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL .
F Obrien--“In the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots ,”
Holmes never made any statement as to Oswald's exact location let alone the 6th floor. You said he was on the 6th floor Holmes did not.
Where in Holmes statement does he state LHO stated he was on the 6th floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to repeat that?
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it.
Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way?
BELIN. Yes.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
A Marine that doesn't know what the sound of gunfire is like. Great alibi.
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My comment wasn't in response to you. My comment was in response to a post from DVP which I quoted. But since you have interjected yourself. This is what you have said:
"[Oswald] could equally have been sat alone eating in the lunchroom as per the interrogation notes and also have no alibi."
That conclusion is laughable. Spin us a yarn, though, in which the conspirators say to themselves "we are going to go to the considerable risk and effort to frame Oswald for the assassination by leaving evidence that links him to the crime on the 6th floor but allow him to roam about the building at the moment of the assassination and even hang out in a common area like the lunch room where he could be encountered and given an alibi." It's absurd to suggest that any plot that involves framing Oswald as the assassin would not account for where he is at during the assassination. That would be #1 on the old Conspirators checklist. Any child could understand why. If left to his own free will. the most likely place Oswald would have been at that moment is on the street in the presence of his coworkers. If you are going to plant evidence framing Oswald for this crime, you have to be 100% sure Oswald doesn't have an alibi. That means the conspirators have to ensure that Oswald is not in some place like - wait for it - a lunchroom where he could be in the presence of anyone at the moment of the assassination.
Quote from: David Von Pein on January 20, 2024, 09:54:38 PM
LHO sure was one unlucky S.O.B. on 11/22, wasn't he? He was probably the only employee in the entire building to not have a provable alibi for the exact time of the shooting. And it just so happens that all of the evidence points directly at him. And it also just so happens that he was seen by a policeman at the back of the building (near the stairs) within 2 minutes of the shooting. And it also just so happens that Oswald wasn't sitting down at a table eating lunch either. He was seen by Baker & Truly while he (LHO) was STANDING UP and walking toward the middle of the lunchroom.
As I said .... 11/22/63 was certainly NOT the luckiest of Fridays for Mr. Oswald.
And imagine the plan is to frame Oswald for the crime, but the conspirators allow Oswald to roam about the building where he could have been in the presence of others or even out on the street like everyone else at the time of the crime. Giving him an iron clad alibi. It's laughable to think that the conspirators would spend months framing Oswald for the crime but allow him to roam about having lunch in common areas of the building while they are framing him for the crime on the 6th floor. No reasonable person could ever entertain such nonsense.
like i said the comment i posted was replied to by Mr von pien , he failed to address points that i raised and instead posted what he did above . then you pop up and posted your 10 cents worth in reply to what Von pien posted in reply to me NONE OF WHICH I EVER CLAIMED .so YOU interjected yourself i then responded .
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My comment wasn't in response to you. My comment was in response to a post from DVP which I quoted. But since you have interjected yourself. This is what you have said:
"[Oswald] could equally have been sat alone eating in the lunchroom as per the interrogation notes and also have no alibi."
That conclusion is laughable. Spin us a yarn, though, in which the conspirators say to themselves "we are going to go to the considerable risk and effort to frame Oswald for the assassination by leaving evidence that links him to the crime on the 6th floor but allow him to roam about the building at the moment of the assassination and even hang out in a common area like the lunch room where he could be encountered and given an alibi." It's absurd to suggest that any plot that involves framing Oswald as the assassin would not account for where he is at during the assassination. That would be #1 on the old Conspirators checklist. Any child could understand why. If left to his own free will. the most likely place Oswald would have been at that moment is on the street in the presence of his coworkers. If you are going to plant evidence framing Oswald for this crime, you have to be 100% sure Oswald doesn't have an alibi. That means the conspirators have to ensure that Oswald is not in some place like - wait for it - a lunchroom where he could be in the presence of anyone at the moment of the assassination.
you do seem to have great difficulty in addressing that which i actually said . once again what you just posted is not one word of what i said or even claimed . let me be crystal clear , if you wish to quote what i actually said , and then you desire to comment upon what i actually said , IE try to dispute it etc that is quite ok , please feel free to do so . and i will respond . HOWEVER if your desire is to reply to me , and simply make up some theory in reply , well then we simply have nothing to say to one another . i do not reply to nonsense , but as i said i will be only too happy to reply to questions etc related to what i did actually say .
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The "Coke" answer is quite simple:
Oswald bought the Coke AFTER his encounter with Truly/Baker. Not before.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
Re: Oswald's Shirts:
It's been my opinion for many years that Oswald probably wasn't wearing his brown outer shirt when he shot Kennedy. He was only wearing his white T-shirt at that moment. I think he used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he ran from the Sniper's Nest to the northwest stairway (to wipe off at least some of the prints on the rifle). He then quickly put on the brown shirt (but left it unbuttoned) at some point after he started to descend the staircase.
It makes the most sense to me that he likely put on the brown shirt while he was descending the stairs. But, with Mrs. Reid's testimony in mind, it could be that LHO was still holding the shirt in his hand when he passed Reid on the 2nd floor, and he only put the shirt on after leaving Reid's sight. Or, it could be that Oswald was wearing his unbuttoned brown shirt the whole time, but Reid just didn't notice it during her five-second encounter with the fleeing assassin.
in one Baker statement the line appears that Oswald had a coke when he encountered him , that sentence had a line running through it . i have seen it argued that the person writing the statement was not Baker , and that the person writing merely typed in about the coke , Baker said it was wrong and so the writer ran a line through that sentence , or words to that affect . tell me how could such a person who was never in the building , never saw Oswald possibly even think about Oswald holding a coke or not ? . they wrote what Baker told them .
you are entitled to your opinion that he bought the coke after the Baker encounter , that has to be your stance after all given it requires more time be given to Oswald to get change and buy the coke .and as an LN that does not suit your stance . opinion is not proof .the same applies really to your shirt theory .
lol i see you now potentially have Reid barely looking at Oswald , all of 5 seconds lol .
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Oswald CAME DOWN TO SEE A COMMOTION ? he did ? . he came down from where to where to see this commotion ? please tell me i would like to know . are you also talking about what Harry holmes wrote BADLY in his notes ? . if so you are telling me what Holmes wrote not what Oswald provably said he did .
You knew “commotion” was from Harry Holmes, why the act, what is the confusion about? The part where he came downstairs seems to upset you. It must be because the third and fourth floors are offices. The fifth floor was where Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarmin, and Harold Norman were at. The sixth floor is where he left his rifle and finger prints on boxes, bags, and rifles. I bet it is the 6th floor evidence that is upsetting.
i wont even reply to your idiocy re west and jfk,
We must think alike, idiocy is exactly what I thought when I read your comparison of West to LHO. There was no relevance at all.
exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL .
F Obrien--“In the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots ,”
Holmes never made any statement as to Oswald's exact location let alone the 6th floor. You said he was on the 6th floor Holmes did not.
Where in Holmes statement does he state LHO stated he was on the 6th floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to repeat that?
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it.
Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way?
BELIN. Yes.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
A Marine that doesn't know what the sound of gunfire is like. Great alibi.
what part of NOTES confused you ? , i said NOTES as in interrogation notes and you post a segment of testimony asking me where he said what i said . NOTES not testimony , you dont know the difference between notes and testimony ? . LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
you claimed in essence that Oswald in the building had to have atleast heard shots , that is for the moment and for sake of argument assuming he was innocent . now you dont like it that atleast one other man was in the building and heard not one shot . that was my point simply that it was possible depending on where in the building one was to not to hear any shots . West proves that .
lol i am upset ? ok what ever you think lol .
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what part of NOTES confused you ? , i said NOTES as in interrogation notes and you post a segment of testimony asking me where he said what i said . NOTES not testimony , you dont know the difference between notes and testimony ? . LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
you claimed in essence that Oswald in the building had to have atleast heard shots , that is for the moment and for sake of argument assuming he was innocent . now you dont like it that atleast one other man was in the building and heard not one shot . that was my point simply that it was possible depending on where in the building one was to not to hear any shots . West proves that .
lol i am upset ? ok what ever you think lol .
what part of NOTES confused you ? , i said NOTES as in interrogation notes and you post a segment of testimony asking me where he said what i said . NOTES not testimony , you dont know the difference between notes and testimony ? . LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
Obrien--“In the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots ,”
The part where you claim Holmes stated LHO was on the 6th floor. Holmes never made any statement as to Oswald's exact location let alone the 6th floor. You said he was on the 6th floor Holmes did not. Obviously, the notes do not say that or you would not be claiming they “assert” he was on the 6th floor and it would be posted by you as proof of your claim.
If the notes are such a big deal to you post them. I don’t have time to babysit you. Stop talking about them and make your point. Apparently in his notes you think is the reference to whatever you are talking about. I have read them. His WC testimony is a summary of his notes. Maybe you are reading something into Holmes’s WC testimony too
you claimed in essence that Oswald in the building had to have atleast heard shots , that is for the moment and for sake of argument assuming he was innocent . now you dont like it that atleast one other man was in the building and heard not one shot . that was my point simply that it was possible depending on where in the building one was to not to hear any shots . West proves that .
West does not prove anything, and he is not even remotely relevant to LHO. West heard nothing and was aware of mothing, but the same cannot be said of LHO, because, you know, LHO is going to see what was the commotion.
lol i am upset ? ok what ever you think lol .
FO--"exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL ."
Seems a little upset to me. Probably because you are making things up.
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what part of NOTES confused you ? , i said NOTES as in interrogation notes and you post a segment of testimony asking me where he said what i said . NOTES not testimony , you dont know the difference between notes and testimony ? . LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
Obrien--“In the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots ,”
The part where you claim Holmes stated LHO was on the 6th floor. Holmes never made any statement as to Oswald's exact location let alone the 6th floor. You said he was on the 6th floor Holmes did not. Obviously, the notes do not say that or you would not be claiming they “assert” he was on the 6th floor and it would be posted by you as proof of your claim.
If the notes are such a big deal to you post them. I don’t have time to babysit you. Stop talking about them and make your point. Apparently in his notes you think is the reference to whatever you are talking about. I have read them. His WC testimony is a summary of his notes. Maybe you are reading something into Holmes’s WC testimony too
you claimed in essence that Oswald in the building had to have atleast heard shots , that is for the moment and for sake of argument assuming he was innocent . now you dont like it that atleast one other man was in the building and heard not one shot . that was my point simply that it was possible depending on where in the building one was to not to hear any shots . West proves that .
West does not prove anything, and he is not even remotely relevant to LHO. West heard nothing and was aware of mothing, but the same cannot be said of LHO, because, you know, LHO is going to see what was the commotion.
lol i am upset ? ok what ever you think lol .
FO--"exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL ."
Seems a little upset to me. Probably because you are making things up.
ok here is my
"i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting ." fergus obrien
what part of NOTES confused you ? , i said NOTES as in interrogation notes and you post a segment of testimony asking me where he said what i said . NOTES not testimony , you dont know the difference between notes and testimony ? . LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting .
Obrien--“In the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots ,”
The part where you claim Holmes stated LHO was on the 6th floor. Holmes never made any statement as to Oswald's exact location let alone the 6th floor. You said he was on the 6th floor Holmes did not. Obviously, the notes do not say that or you would not be claiming they “assert” he was on the 6th floor and it would be posted by you as proof of your claim.
If the notes are such a big deal to you post them. I don’t have time to babysit you. Stop talking about them and make your point. Apparently in his notes you think is the reference to whatever you are talking about. I have read them. His WC testimony is a summary of his notes. Maybe you are reading something into Holmes’s WC testimony too
you claimed in essence that Oswald in the building had to have atleast heard shots , that is for the moment and for sake of argument assuming he was innocent . now you dont like it that atleast one other man was in the building and heard not one shot . that was my point simply that it was possible depending on where in the building one was to not to hear any shots . West proves that .
West does not prove anything, and he is not even remotely relevant to LHO. West heard nothing and was aware of mothing, but the same cannot be said of LHO, because, you know, LHO is going to see what was the commotion.
lol i am upset ? ok what ever you think lol .
FO--"exactly what DO YOU SAY i made up ? . i was very clear i spoke from memory in parts in the comment you quoted , but i also posted testimony . so what EXACTLY do you claim i made up ? DO TELL ."
Seems a little upset to me. Probably because you are making things up.
ok here is my ORIGINAL comment .i will correct myself a tad in what i said as i perhaps could have worded it better .here is my original comment .
"i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the Harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes Holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know Oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting ." fergus obrien
ok i did make clear i spoke from memory , i went and refreshed my memory . but you did post testimony and i did not mention testimony .what i should have said is that Harry holmes notes (well i guess statement might be a better term to use ) have been used by LN to assert that Oswald placed HIMSELF on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting (12.30) or commotion , " the commotion surrounding the shooting ". Holmes notes on the surface can give that impression . i dont know if Holmes did that by accident or on purpose . but once one takes a look at the notes (and they have a little knowledge ) the problem becomes clear .so YES Holmes did not necessarily say Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 , but LN have asserted that Oswald did place himself there at that time based on Holmes notes / statement . what is paramount is that Oswald in no way EVER placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 .
you are correct i said "ASSERT " . that was meant in terms of LN . but i only mentioned all of this because you were specific in mentioning "THE COMMOTION " .
as regards baby sitting , when it comes to this case i neither request baby sitting NOR DO I NEED IT , and if i did you would be the last person i would ask . that is not to say that i know everything I DONT , and it is not to say that i wont ever err . i am human as are you , so i can assure you that we both will err or have at some point erred . there is no shame in being wrong , thi e shame comes from one being unable and unwilling to admit they are wrong .
"West does not prove anything, and he is not even remotely relevant to LHO. West heard nothing and was aware of mothing, but the same cannot be said of LHO, because, you know, LHO is going to see what was the commotion. " Jack
once again you chose not to understand what i said . i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on . HOWEVER what you choose to assert and what you are able to provide proof of i am certain will differ greatly . my point was SO I THOUGHT VERY CLEAR , such that even a child could understand it . so here it is again but a bit more simplified for you . again FOR SAKE OF ARGUMENT ONLY . if Oswald was on the 2nd floor eating and West was on the 1st floor eating . logic dictates that if West inside the building never heard a shot that equally the same COULD apply to Oswald . unlike you i am not making any assumptions .
"Seems a little upset to me. Probably because you are making things up." Jack
this is the second time you have accused me of making stuff up , i consider that an accusation that i have lied . so once again post here what you assert i have made up and or lied about , oh and any proof in addition to prove i have made up or lied about anything . and yes i have the notes / statement (relevant section of them ) which i can post , but if you are any good at this SHOULD I REALLY NEED TO ?.
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you are entitled to your opinion that he bought the coke after the Baker encounter , that has to be your stance after all given it requires more time be given to Oswald to get change and buy the coke .and as an LN that does not suit your stance . opinion is not proof .the same applies really to your shirt theory .
So, Baker saw Oswald enter the lunchroom and Oswald already had a coke, which leads to the obvious question, why would Oswald need to re-enter the lunchroom, maybe to buy two cokes? Or is assassinating the President of the United States, just thirsty work?
(https://southofheaven.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451960269e201b7c8f03004970b-pi)
JohnM
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ok here is my
"i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting ." fergus obrien
ok here is my ORIGINAL comment .i will correct myself a tad in what i said as i perhaps could have worded it better .here is my original comment .
"i believe from memory when you talk about Oswald and a "COMMOTION" that you talking about what is in the Harry holmes notes , notes that very clearly do not relay certain events in the order they happened or not at the times they happened . in the notes Holmes has Oswald saying he was still on the 6th floor at the time of the shots , something the BUG tried to use to his advantage . we know Oswald never placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting ." fergus obrien
ok i did make clear i spoke from memory , i went and refreshed my memory . but you did post testimony and i did not mention testimony .what i should have said is that Harry holmes notes (well i guess statement might be a better term to use ) have been used by LN to assert that Oswald placed HIMSELF on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting (12.30) or commotion , " the commotion surrounding the shooting ". Holmes notes on the surface can give that impression . i dont know if Holmes did that by accident or on purpose . but once one takes a look at the notes (and they have a little knowledge ) the problem becomes clear .so YES Holmes did not necessarily say Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 , but LN have asserted that Oswald did place himself there at that time based on Holmes notes / statement . what is paramount is that Oswald in no way EVER placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 .
you are correct i said "ASSERT " . that was meant in terms of LN . but i only mentioned all of this because you were specific in mentioning "THE COMMOTION " .
as regards baby sitting , when it comes to this case i neither request baby sitting NOR DO I NEED IT , and if i did you would be the last person i would ask . that is not to say that i know everything I DONT , and it is not to say that i wont ever err . i am human as are you , so i can assure you that we both will err or have at some point erred . there is no shame in being wrong , thi e shame comes from one being unable and unwilling to admit they are wrong .
"West does not prove anything, and he is not even remotely relevant to LHO. West heard nothing and was aware of mothing, but the same cannot be said of LHO, because, you know, LHO is going to see what was the commotion. " Jack
once again you chose not to understand what i said . i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on . HOWEVER what you choose to assert and what you are able to provide proof of i am certain will differ greatly . my point was SO I THOUGHT VERY CLEAR , such that even a child could understand it . so here it is again but a bit more simplified for you . again FOR SAKE OF ARGUMENT ONLY . if Oswald was on the 2nd floor eating and West was on the 1st floor eating . logic dictates that if West inside the building never heard a shot that equally the same COULD apply to Oswald . unlike you i am not making any assumptions .
"Seems a little upset to me. Probably because you are making things up." Jack
this is the second time you have accused me of making stuff up , i consider that an accusation that i have lied . so once again post here what you assert i have made up and or lied about , oh and any proof in addition to prove i have made up or lied about anything . and yes i have the notes / statement (relevant section of them ) which i can post , but if you are any good at this SHOULD I REALLY NEED TO ?.
WOW, what a long way around the barn. Sorry but I won’t be looking Holmes’s notes up for you.
What are you a squid? It appears you are trying to ink the waters in order to flea from what you said. Either post where Holmes said LHO was on the 6th floor or let it go. I am sure if there was any proof of him saying that it would have come out in his testimony.
Now you are changing and saying I “assert” LHO was on the 6th floor but not from Holmes’s notes like everyone else.
FO--“i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on”
FO--“LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.”
They way you are completely contradicting yourself it is more like a discussion with another Ct.
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West has no relevance to LHO hearing the shots. None at all. Oswald was not on the 2nd floor eating. He said he came down to see what the commotion was about. Baker encounters LHO while LHO was walking into the 2nd floor lunch room.
Is there really a doubt why I think you just make things up?
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So, Baker saw Oswald enter the lunchroom and Oswald already had a coke, which leads to the obvious question, why would Oswald need to re-enter the lunchroom, maybe to buy two cokes? Or is assassinating the President of the United States, just thirsty work?
(https://southofheaven.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451960269e201b7c8f03004970b-pi)
JohnM
when did i say Oswald re entered the lunchroom ? when did i say he entered TWICE to buy cokes ? . in fact i never said he ENTERED at all . do try to keep up .
by the way and i an sure you will correct me if i am wrong , but Baker to my knowledge never claimed he saw Oswald walk in the lunchroom door . to my knowledge he said he saw a movement through the door window . which technically at the least is INSIDE .
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WOW, what a long way around the barn. Sorry but I won’t be looking Holmes’s notes up for you.
What are you a squid? It appears you are trying to ink the waters in order to flea from what you said. Either post where Holmes said LHO was on the 6th floor or let it go. I am sure if there was any proof of him saying that it would have come out in his testimony.
Now you are changing and saying I “assert” LHO was on the 6th floor but not from Holmes’s notes like everyone else.
FO--“i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on”
FO--“LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.”
They way you are completely contradicting yourself it is more like a discussion with another Ct.
----------------------------
West has no relevance to LHO hearing the shots. None at all. Oswald was not on the 2nd floor eating. He said he came down to see what the commotion was about. Baker encounters LHO while LHO was walking into the 2nd floor lunch room.
Is there really a doubt why I think you just make things up?
"Sorry but I won’t be looking Holmes’s notes up for you " Jack
if you were any good at this you would not need to check up . i had no need to check Holmes notes / statement , but in the interests of trying to be as accurate as i could and not always rely upon memory i did check and i refreshed my memory .
"What are you a squid? It appears you are trying to ink the waters in order to flea from what you said. Either post where Holmes said LHO was on the 6th floor or let it go. I am sure if there was any proof of him saying that it would have come out in his testimony." Jack
i was crystal clear on this . i even posted a child proof comment / explanation for you .
"FO--“i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on”
FO--“LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.” " Jack
so then it is NOT your assertion as an LN that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window shooting at 12.30 ? . so as an LN where do you assert that Oswald was at 12.30 ? .do tell .
YES just about every LN ive spoken to asserts based on Holmes notes / statement that Oswald SLIPPED UP and placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 .
"West has no relevance to LHO hearing the shots. None at all. Oswald was not on the 2nd floor eating. He said he came down to see what the commotion was about. Baker encounters LHO while LHO was walking into the 2nd floor lunch room. " Jack
Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN - Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER - I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
EXACTLY where above did Baker under oath claim he saw Oswald WALKING INTO THE LUNCHROOM ? .
"Is there really a doubt why I think you just make things up?" Jack
hmmm ? well YES there will always be doubt while you can offer no proof that i did what you claim .
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" when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came , and he didnt say which floor he was on , he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily .following this he simply walked out the front door of the building ." from Harry holmes notes / statement
http://www.prayer-man.com/usps/harry-dean-holmes/#lightbox[group]/3/
i post the above for those that desire to see it and read it . ok so lets start with the first line
"when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came "
please note the two words in bold LUNCH TIME , when lunch time came . when did employees break for lunch ? . well at some time in and around 11.45 am . Oswald was seen after that point at 11.50am on the 1st floor by his superior Bill shelly . so in the very first line it is very clear we are talking about Oswald and his co workers being on the 6th floor at about 11.45 am , then breaking for lunch , and Oswald then being seen on the 1st floor at 11.50 am by his superior .
in the first and second line it is said Oswald was invited to eat lunch , i dont believe it was anything so formal as an invite , rather that it was a HEY LEE ITS LUNCH TIME , YOU TAKING A BREAK ?. in fact oswald said he ATE ALONE and jarmin and norman stated they never ate with him .
"he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place "
now they broke for lunch about 11.45 am . the commotion surrounding the assassination took place AFTER 12.30 pm . so it should now be very clear that the above are different incidents some 45 minutes apart . but placed together by Holmes notes . statements .
"and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" "
Oswald in no instance placed himself ABOVE the second floor . he said he ate lunch alone . one witness said she saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom between 12.15 and 12.20 in a booth eating alone .
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when did i say Oswald re entered the lunchroom ? when did i say he entered TWICE to buy cokes ? . in fact i never said he ENTERED at all . do try to keep up .
by the way and i an sure you will correct me if i am wrong , but Baker to my knowledge never claimed he saw Oswald walk in the lunchroom door . to my knowledge he said he saw a movement through the door window . which technically at the least is INSIDE .
when did i say Oswald re entered the lunchroom ? when did i say he entered TWICE to buy cokes ? . in fact i never said he ENTERED at all . do try to keep up .
What you say is irrelevant, I'm only interested in the evidence from Baker himself and the actual layout of the 2nd floor.
1. You do realize that the vestibule was a separate area to the lunchroom?
(https://i.postimg.cc/65y78X2v/TSBD-2nd-floor-plan-crop.jpg)
2. According to the plan of the 2nd floor, from Baker's position(B) at the top of the stairs, you can't see through the door of the vestibule door window into the lunchroom. And the following photo from within the Lunchroom you can see through the vestibule door window and see the window to the relative left of the top of the stairs
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr8R3PK2/Photo-wcd81-1-0149.jpg)
3. Baker saw enough of Oswald to calculate that Oswald was hurriedly moving away from Law Enforcement because Oswald moved quite far in the same time that Baker ran from the top of the stairs to the door. By the time Officer Baker reaches the vestibule door, Oswald has now decided to not "hang around" but Oswald is suspiciously hurrying out of the corridor and is now about 20 feet away from Officer Baker?
Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.
Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W42TJGWH/Photo-wcd81-1-0145.jpg)
4. Another clue is that Baker says that the door might have been closing and regardless if the door was almost shut, it is another key indicator that Oswald was just on the other side of the outer vestibule door
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ62DNqK/Through-lunch-door.gif)
Conclusion
Oswald would have heard Truly yelling up the stairs, so Oswald ducked into the vestibule corridor and waited for Truly to leave, then as Oswald was opening the door or about to open the door, to continue down the stairs, Oswald unexpectedly saw Officer Baker through the Vestibule door window and Oswald in a blind panic hurriedly moved into the explainable neutral Lunchroom.
Every movement and action Oswald did on the 22nd was the product of a Murderer on the run, fleeing the two crime scenes!
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So now that you have been reliably informed, I ask again, "why would Oswald need to re-enter the lunchroom, maybe to buy two cokes?"
Btw it's hilarious, that it's you, not me, that needs to "try and keep up". LOL!
JohnM
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"Sorry but I won’t be looking Holmes’s notes up for you " Jack
if you were any good at this you would not need to check up . i had no need to check Holmes notes / statement , but in the interests of trying to be as accurate as i could and not always rely upon memory i did check and i refreshed my memory .
"What are you a squid? It appears you are trying to ink the waters in order to flea from what you said. Either post where Holmes said LHO was on the 6th floor or let it go. I am sure if there was any proof of him saying that it would have come out in his testimony." Jack
i was crystal clear on this . i even posted a child proof comment / explanation for you .
"FO--“i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on”
FO--“LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.” " Jack
so then it is NOT your assertion as an LN that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window shooting at 12.30 ? . so as an LN where do you assert that Oswald was at 12.30 ? .do tell .
YES just about every LN ive spoken to asserts based on Holmes notes / statement that Oswald SLIPPED UP and placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 .
"West has no relevance to LHO hearing the shots. None at all. Oswald was not on the 2nd floor eating. He said he came down to see what the commotion was about. Baker encounters LHO while LHO was walking into the 2nd floor lunch room. " Jack
Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN - Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER - I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
EXACTLY where above did Baker under oath claim he saw Oswald WALKING INTO THE LUNCHROOM ? .
"Is there really a doubt why I think you just make things up?" Jack
hmmm ? well YES there will always be doubt while you can offer no proof that i did what you claim .
I think comparing you to a squid is unfair to squids. They at least have a purpose for what they do, while you are just wandering around making it up as you go and changing your storyline to fit the circumstances.
Assert leaves some room for doubt as to whether. There is no doubt, LHO was on the 6th floor firing his rifle at JFK.
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Not one thing you have “asserted” is true. Not one thing you have posted “asserts” what you have been stating. Maybe read your posts again and explain where Holmes states LHO was on the 6th floor or LHO was not walking away from Baker into the 2nd floor lunch room.
FO--” "he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place "
FO--“now they broke for lunch about 11.45 am . the commotion surrounding the assassination took place AFTER 12.30 pm . so it should now be very clear that the above are different incidents some 45 minutes apart . but placed together by Holmes notes . Statements,” "and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" "
After the shooting LHO came down to the stairs to see what the commotion was where he had the 2nd floor encounter with Baker. That is what Holmes stated and you confirmed.
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" when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came , and he didnt say which floor he was on , he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily .following this he simply walked out the front door of the building ." from Harry holmes notes / statement
http://www.prayer-man.com/usps/harry-dean-holmes/#lightbox[group]/3/
i post the above for those that desire to see it and read it . ok so lets start with the first line
"when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came "
please note the two words in bold LUNCH TIME , when lunch time came . when did employees break for lunch ? . well at some time in and around 11.45 am . Oswald was seen after that point at 11.50am on the 1st floor by his superior Bill shelly . so in the very first line it is very clear we are talking about Oswald and his co workers being on the 6th floor at about 11.45 am , then breaking for lunch , and Oswald then being seen on the 1st floor at 11.50 am by his superior .
in the first and second line it is said Oswald was invited to eat lunch , i dont believe it was anything so formal as an invite , rather that it was a HEY LEE ITS LUNCH TIME , YOU TAKING A BREAK ?. in fact oswald said he ATE ALONE and jarmin and norman stated they never ate with him .
"he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place "
now they broke for lunch about 11.45 am . the commotion surrounding the assassination took place AFTER 12.30 pm . so it should now be very clear that the above are different incidents some 45 minutes apart . but placed together by Holmes notes . statements .
"and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" "
Oswald in no instance placed himself ABOVE the second floor . he said he ate lunch alone . one witness said she saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom between 12.15 and 12.20 in a booth eating alone .
Incredible did you not even read it? You have managed to put on, in full display, your own intelligence, at the same time managing to insult the intelligence of everyone else.
You have managed to post information that is in direct conflict with what you are stating now and have been stating all along.
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That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.
Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!
You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.
Not that it really matters much, as Styles re-entered the building through the front entrance, but why don't you just show the photo?
"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering."
That's just your opinion. You don't know if Sawyer shared that opinion. I refer to what I said about Sawyer in my previous post;
The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.
When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Obviously, the mere fact that Sawyer thought those instructions had not yet been given, doesn't mean that that was automatically correct.
MW: That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.
No, you just couldn't deal with what I'd said, and apparently don't want to admit that I was right about Harkness' transmission.
MT: Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
MW: Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!
So you want to rely on some details within the transcripts, but don't care to know what the recordings actually show. Nice.
MW: Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.
When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.
You left out something:
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
I've already explained in this thread why Sawyer didn't arrive until after Harkness' 12:36 transmission, and thus would not have returned from the 4th floor before 12:39.
Of the officers in Dealey plaza at the time, most of them are in the railroad yards checking cars or holding the crowd back. Denham stayed at Houston and Main, Lewis remained at Houston and Commerce directing traffic. Allen is seen in the Bond photos running for the picket fence. JM and Ed Smith both leave their posts at Elm and Houston to go to the RR yards. Neither comes back quickly. JM Smith remembered that he returned to the front of the TSBD 15-20 minutes after the shooting. Ed Smith kept checking cars all the way up the lot. King stayed in the edge of the RR yard doing crowd control. White, on the overpass, said got trapped on the West side of the tracks by a train. At 12:36, the only officer who can be said to have been near the door of the Depository is Barnett, who is actually standing off of the corner of the building so he can watch the front and East sides simultaneously. And there really isn't anyone else available, unless JM Smith comes back much much earlier than he thought. The officers required to "lock down" the building simply weren't available to do so. Which is why Harkness asks the dispatcher for assistance at 12:41, and Sawyer asks for more a few minutes later.
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MW: That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.
No, you just couldn't deal with what I'd said, and apparently don't want to admit that I was right about Harkness' transmission.
If you say so.
MT: Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
MW: Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!
So you want to rely on some details within the transcripts, but don't care to know what the recordings actually show. Nice.
What do the recordings actually show that isn't in the transcripts abd who said that I want to rely on details in the transcripts? I'm only working with the imperfect record that is available.
But, if you prefer, I'll gladly go by what the recordings actually show, provided of course that the recordings are in fact authenticated.
MW: Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.
When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.
You left out something:
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Hilarious. Sawyer confirmed in his testimony that he didn't think instructions had been given. If he didn't know that, how in the world would he know that his instructions were the first ones? Even more so, as, when he returned from the 4th floor, he was told the building had been sealed off.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.
You do understand that if the building was indeed sealed off when Sawyer arrived back from the 4th floor (as the sergeant told him), it becomes irrelevant when exactly Sawyer actually arrived back from the 4th floor and/or gave his instructions?
I've already explained in this thread why Sawyer didn't arrive until after Harkness' 12:36 transmission, and thus would not have returned from the 4th floor before 12:39.
Of the officers in Dealey plaza at the time, most of them are in the railroad yards checking cars or holding the crowd back. Denham stayed at Houston and Main, Lewis remained at Houston and Commerce directing traffic. Allen is seen in the Bond photos running for the picket fence. JM and Ed Smith both leave their posts at Elm and Houston to go to the RR yards. Neither comes back quickly. JM Smith remembered that he returned to the front of the TSBD 15-20 minutes after the shooting. Ed Smith kept checking cars all the way up the lot. King stayed in the edge of the RR yard doing crowd control. White, on the overpass, said got trapped on the West side of the tracks by a train. At 12:36, the only officer who can be said to have been near the door of the Depository is Barnett, who is actually standing off of the corner of the building so he can watch the front and East sides simultaneously. And there really isn't anyone else available, unless JM Smith comes back much much earlier than he thought. The officers required to "lock down" the building simply weren't available to do so. Which is why Harkness asks the dispatcher for assistance at 12:41, and Sawyer asks for more a few minutes later.
I've already explained in this thread why Sawyer didn't arrive until after Harkness' 12:36 transmission, and thus would not have returned from the 4th floor before 12:39.
It's just too bad that Sawyer wasn't as sure about the times than you claim to be. :D :D :D
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This interview is quite an eye-opener and certainly contradicts my own thinking on this aspect of the case.
Unsurprisingly, it hasn't crossed anyone's mind to take Vicki's words at face value - she hit the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting where she saw Lovelady and Shelley stood by the elevators. This would mean Lovelady and Shelley lied in their WC testimonies about their movements after the shooting. It is notable that in their affidavits neither man makes any mention of their trip down the Elm Street extension, hanging around the railroad yard and entering the TSBD building through the little known west door.
This would make Lovelady and Shelley the two white men Baker reports seeing on the first floor on his way to the elevators:
Mr. Baker: On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. Dulles: Were they white men?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.
I'm a bit baffled by the LNer's rabid need to have Adams wait on the fourth floor for a few minutes before she races downstairs to find out what was going on. The available evidence (Stroud document, Dilliard photo) supports Adams' constant assertion that she raced downstairs within seconds of the shooting. The idea that the two women clattering down wooden stairs in high heels in an enclosed space could detect whether someone was descending the stairs on another floor has always seemed a bit nonsensical to me.
If we take Vicki's words at face value the question is - what are Lovelady and Shelley up to?
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From Billy Lovelady's affidavit a couple of hours after the assassination:
"When the President came by Bill Shelly and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots.There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together...After it was over we went back into the building..."
This is Lovelady's first statement regarding his movements around the time of the shooting. There is absolutely no indication that he left the steps at any time, no mention of making his way down the Elm Street extension with Shelley, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on and no mention of re-entering the TSBD building by the west door. Any reasonable reading of his affidavit has him stood on the steps,he hears the shots, then both he and Shelley go back into the building through the front door (he says "we went back into the building").
This is from Bill Shelley's affidavit:
"I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the president in the parade.The president's car was about half way from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
Once again, no mention of making his way along the Elm Street extension, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on and no mention of re-entering the TSBD building through the west door. A reasonable reading of his affidavit has Shelley running across the street after the shooting, running into Gloria Calvary, running back to the front steps and re-entering the building through the front door.
Both men go on to relate what they did once inside the building in their affidavits but isn't it strange that both men failed to mention the exact same movements? It's as if they went back inside the TSBD building almost immediately after shots. It's as if they never went along the Elm Street extension and waited around watching the goings-on at the railroad yard.
This is from Pat Speer's website and is from an oral history interview with John Templin:
(7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he'd discussed the assassination with other witnesses) "I also met Bill Shelley. I don’t know if you’ve met Bill or are familiar with Bill Shelly, but he was an employee down here at The Sixth Floor...(When asked if Shelley said he was outside when the shots were fired) "I believe Bill... I believe Bill was maybe on the front steps. Yeah, there were a lot of the employees out there. As best as I recall, that’s where he said he was. Then of course, when it happened, he rushed back inside the building."
He "rushed back inside the building"?
Both Lovelady and Shelley tell exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies - that Baker and Truly were still outside the TSBD steps 3 minutes after the shooting.
Why would they tell this lie? A lie exposed by the Darnell footage.
Because it keeps them away from the elevators seconds after the shooting. That's the only reason I can think of.
But Vicki Adams sees them there.
What are they doing there?
Why rush to the elevators seconds after the shooting then lie about it?
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As we have seen, in his affidavit given on the day of the shooting, Shelley states that he ran across the street, encountered Gloria Calvary, came back to the TSBD building and went back inside.
Lovelady states that he was on the steps, heard the shots and went back inside the building. Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI:
"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELLY started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and SHELLY then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."
So now Lovelady does leave the steps! Except he's not heading to the railroad yard - he and Shelley immediately race towards where the limo was on Elm Street but it speeds away before they get there.
This is complete horsesh%t on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin. The notion of them seeing the limo speeding away is bizarre. Needless to say, Shelley never mentions anything of the sort.
Next we have Shelley's FBI statement given on March 18, '64:
"Immediately following the shooting Billy N Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
"Accompanied some uniformed officers"?
More horsesh%t. Lovelady never mentions this and Shelley never mentions it again. Shelley has conveniently forgotten that he raced back inside the building to call his wife and when it comes to his WC testimony he will have conveniently forgotten all about the police officers he accompanied along the Elm Street extension. He has also forgotten his encounter with Gloria. This is the first time the west door is mentioned and a handy time-frame of ten minutes is introduced before they re-entered the TSBD building. If this was the case Adams would never even have made it outside as the building would have been locked down ten minutes after the shooting!
The next day, the 19th, Lovelady is still peddling his nonsense about running to the spot where the limo was:
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
Here we have the two men hanging around the spot where the limo stopped for five minutes before they re-enter the building. If this was the case Adams would never have made it back inside as the building would have been locked down by the time she reached the front door. In fact, there is only one realistic scenario provided where Adams can see Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor near the elevators and still make it back inside in before the building is locked down - if Lovelady and Shelley re-enter the building immediately after the shooting.
As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies - that it was 3 minutes before Gloria Clavary came up to the steps and that they saw Truly and Baker outside the TSBD building steps after this. Then there are a few more minutes spent moving down towards the railroad tracks, watching what was going on, making their way back into the building and making their way to the elevators. According to their made up timelines it would have been about six minutes after the shooting before Adams saw them on the first floor (something clearly not supported by Adams, Styles, Garner, Baker, Truly, the Stroud document and the Dilliard pic).
This would not be enough time for Adams to have made her way around the back of the building, been stopped by a police officer, have some kind of interaction with him, make her way around the west side of the building to the Elm Street extension, have a conversation with Avery and hear the 12:38pm broadcast involving the second floor.
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From Billy Lovelady's affidavit a couple of hours after the assassination:
"When the President came by Bill Shelly and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots.There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together...After it was over we went back into the building..."
This is Lovelady's first statement regarding his movements around the time of the shooting. There is absolutely no indication that he left the steps at any time, no mention of making his way down the Elm Street extension with Shelley, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on and no mention of re-entering the TSBD building by the west door. Any reasonable reading of his affidavit has him stood on the steps,he hears the shots, then both he and Shelley go back into the building through the front door (he says "we went back into the building").
This is from Bill Shelley's affidavit:
"I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the president in the parade.The president's car was about half way from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
Once again, no mention of making his way along the Elm Street extension, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on and no mention of re-entering the TSBD building through the west door. A reasonable reading of his affidavit has Shelley running across the street after the shooting, running into Gloria Calvary, running back to the front steps and re-entering the building through the front door.
Both men go on to relate what they did once inside the building in their affidavits but isn't it strange that both men failed to mention the exact same movements? It's as if they went back inside the TSBD building almost immediately after shots. It's as if they never went along the Elm Street extension and waited around watching the goings-on at the railroad yard.
This is from Pat Speer's website and is from an oral history interview with John Templin:
(7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he'd discussed the assassination with other witnesses) "I also met Bill Shelley. I don’t know if you’ve met Bill or are familiar with Bill Shelly, but he was an employee down here at The Sixth Floor...(When asked if Shelley said he was outside when the shots were fired) "I believe Bill... I believe Bill was maybe on the front steps. Yeah, there were a lot of the employees out there. As best as I recall, that’s where he said he was. Then of course, when it happened, he rushed back inside the building."
He "rushed back inside the building"?
Both Lovelady and Shelley tell exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies - that Baker and Truly were still outside the TSBD steps 3 minutes after the shooting.
Why would they tell this lie? A lie exposed by the Darnell footage.
Because it keeps them away from the elevators seconds after the shooting. That's the only reason I can think of.
But Vicki Adams sees them there.
What are they doing there?
Why rush to the elevators seconds after the shooting then lie about it?
As we have seen, in his affidavit given on the day of the shooting, Shelley states that he ran across the street, encountered Gloria Calvary, came back to the TSBD building and went back inside.
Lovelady states that he was on the steps, heard the shots and went back inside the building. Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI:
"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELLY started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and SHELLY then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."
So now Lovelady does leave the steps! Except he's not heading to the railroad yard - he and Shelley immediately race towards where the limo was on Elm Street but it speeds away before they get there.
This is complete horsesh%t on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin. The notion of them seeing the limo speeding away is bizarre. Needless to say, Shelley never mentions anything of the sort.
Next we have Shelley's FBI statement given on March 18, '64:
"Immediately following the shooting Billy N Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
"Accompanied some uniformed officers"?
More horsesh%t. Lovelady never mentions this and Shelley never mentions it again. Shelley has conveniently forgotten that he raced back inside the building to call his wife and when it comes to his WC testimony he will have conveniently forgotten all about the police officers he accompanied along the Elm Street extension. He has also forgotten his encounter with Gloria. This is the first time the west door is mentioned and a handy time-frame of ten minutes is introduced before they re-entered the TSBD building. If this was the case Adams would never even have made it outside as the building would have been locked down ten minutes after the shooting!
The next day, the 19th, Lovelady is still peddling his nonsense about running to the spot where the limo was:
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
Here we have the two men hanging around the spot where the limo stopped for five minutes before they re-enter the building. If this was the case Adams would never have made it back inside as the building would have been locked down by the time she reached the front door. In fact, there is only one realistic scenario provided where Adams can see Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor near the elevators and still make it back inside in before the building is locked down - if Lovelady and Shelley re-enter the building immediately after the shooting.
As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies - that it was 3 minutes before Gloria Clavary came up to the steps and that they saw Truly and Baker outside the TSBD building steps after this. Then there are a few more minutes spent moving down towards the railroad tracks, watching what was going on, making their way back into the building and making their way to the elevators. According to their made up timelines it would have been about six minutes after the shooting before Adams saw them on the first floor (something clearly not supported by Adams, Styles, Garner, Baker, Truly, the Stroud document and the Dilliard pic).
This would not be enough time for Adams to have made her way around the back of the building, been stopped by a police officer, have some kind of interaction with him, make her way around the west side of the building to the Elm Street extension, have a conversation with Avery and hear the 12:38pm broadcast involving the second floor.
As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies
Interesting and certainly food for thought. Having said that, I'm struggling to understand what possible reason Shelley and Lovelady would have to lie.
Also, if they did lie, why would Lovelady be so hesitant to identify Vickie Adams as the woman he saw?
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Forty pages of contrarian gibberish trying to interpret words and recollections after the fact down to seconds. Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people. Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds. No one needs to sort this out to the subjective satisfaction of loons or invent a time machine to demonstrate that Oswald could have made his way from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor unnoticed. Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams. Once a thing has happened, the odds against it happening are no longer relevant no matter how improbable. It would be like trying to prove that no one can win the lottery because the odds are so long against it while standing in the presence of the person holding the winning ticket. We know it could happen because it did. The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) and Truly and Baker place him on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later. We also know that the stairs are the only way he could have gotten between those two points in that timeframe and that no one saw him do so. That is the end of the story.
There is no need to interpret the testimony of anyone on this point. The circumstances prove it beyond any doubt. Endless subjective nitpicking of testimony and interpretations of words used by witnesses to support some desired outcome is working backward to the facts. Here is an example. If I can prove that Roger Collins was in Paris this morning, and then in NYC this afternoon, the proof of those two facts means beyond any doubt that he took an airplane to get there. I don't have to separately prove that he did so. Even if no passenger on a transatlantic flight could remember him being on a plane that day, that does not create doubt. We know it happened because it is the only way to explain his presence at those two locations within the known timeframe. Not only is it possible that he took a plane, but the facts and circumstances prove that he HAD to have done so.
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Let's take Vicki's words at face value - that she raced downstairs seconds after the shooting (as she constantly maintains) and that she passed by Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor:
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
Can we determine how quickly she took off from the fourth floor?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRSTLYJc/tsbd-4th-floor-planredbox.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Below is a photo taken by Tom Dillard. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7dzfLx1/dillard-just-after-fullredbox.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. As we know, Adams, Styles and Garner left office after the shooting. It appears they have left by the time this pic was taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):
"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."
Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. The limo has barely got out of the Triple Underpass
The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot. This decision was made before the limo even reached the Underpass.
"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."
How long would it take a young women running full tilt in high heels to get down 3 flights of stairs - 30 seconds? 40 seconds?
Let's say her estimate of reaching the first floor one minute after the shooting is conservative, the question remains, what were Lovelady and Shelley doing there?
It must be noted, this mention of Lovelady and Shelley did not first come about during Adams' WC testimony:
"When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository..."
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive)[Speer]
What is the importance of Shelley and Lovelady lying about their movements after the assassination?
Weren't these just two innocent bystanders watching the parade?
What compelled them to race towards the back of the first floor?
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Forty pages of contrarian gibberish trying to interpret words and recollections after the fact down to seconds. Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people. Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds. No one needs to sort this out to the subjective satisfaction of loons or invent a time machine to demonstrate that Oswald could have made his way from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor unnoticed. Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams. Once a thing has happened, the odds against it happening are no longer relevant no matter how improbable. It would be like trying to prove that no one can win the lottery because the odds are so long against it while standing in the presence of the person holding the winning ticket. We know it could happen because it did. The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) and Truly and Baker place him on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later. We also know that the stairs are the only way he could have gotten between those two points in that timeframe and that no one saw him do so. That is the end of the story.
There is no need to interpret the testimony of anyone on this point. The circumstances prove it beyond any doubt. Endless subjective nitpicking of testimony and interpretations of words used by witnesses to support some desired outcome is working backward to the facts. Here is an example. If I can prove that Roger Collins was in Paris this morning, and then in NYC this afternoon, the proof of those two facts means beyond any doubt that he took an airplane to get there. I don't have to separately prove that he did so. Even if no passenger on a transatlantic flight could remember him being on a plane that day, that does not create doubt. We know it happened because it is the only way to explain his presence at those two locations within the known timeframe. Not only is it possible that he took a plane, but the facts and circumstances prove that he HAD to have done so.
Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams.
Too bad that there is not a shred of credible evidence that proves Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. I have asked you to provide such evidence for months and you were never able to provide it. You couldn't even explain how the presence of a rifle that allegedly belonged to Oswald could actually prove that he was also there in person.
The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)
Utter BS.... even if the rifle belonged to Oswald (which is a big "if"), that still does not begin to prove that Oswald himself was on the 6th floor at 12:30. Neither do his prints on some boxes as we know for a fact that Oswald was working on the 6th floor in the hours prior to the assassination and thus was supposed to be there and you can only assume that he didn't have an alibi, because he never had a real opportunity to present one, regardless of what his interrogators said in their sloppy reports.
The bottom line is that no matter how often you continue to repeat the same old BS, it will never be anything else but inconclusive speculation based on wishful thinking
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Forty pages of contrarian gibberish trying to interpret words and recollections after the fact down to seconds. Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people. Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds. No one needs to sort this out to the subjective satisfaction of loons or invent a time machine to demonstrate that Oswald could have made his way from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor unnoticed. Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams. Once a thing has happened, the odds against it happening are no longer relevant no matter how improbable. It would be like trying to prove that no one can win the lottery because the odds are so long against it while standing in the presence of the person holding the winning ticket. We know it could happen because it did. The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) and Truly and Baker place him on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later. We also know that the stairs are the only way he could have gotten between those two points in that timeframe and that no one saw him do so. That is the end of the story.
There is no need to interpret the testimony of anyone on this point. The circumstances prove it beyond any doubt. Endless subjective nitpicking of testimony and interpretations of words used by witnesses to support some desired outcome is working backward to the facts. Here is an example. If I can prove that Roger Collins was in Paris this morning, and then in NYC this afternoon, the proof of those two facts means beyond any doubt that he took an airplane to get there. I don't have to separately prove that he did so. Even if no passenger on a transatlantic flight could remember him being on a plane that day, that does not create doubt. We know it happened because it is the only way to explain his presence at those two locations within the known timeframe. Not only is it possible that he took a plane, but the facts and circumstances prove that he HAD to have done so.
Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people. Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds.
In the case of Vicki Adams, "immediate" means within ten seconds.
I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
The Dillard picture is proof Adams was already on her way downstairs.
Adams decides to set off before the limo has reached the underpass (something confirmed by the Dillard picture). According to your star witness, Brennan, the shooter is still stood in the SN at this time:
"Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."
So there's no need to worry about Adams not hearing Oswald on the stairs!! ::)
Adams hits the first floor and is out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators (confirmed by the Stroud document).
But she passes close by Lovelady and Shelley, who have raced to the back of the TSBD building for some unspecified reason. She is a witness to their presence at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady and Shelley must be the two white men Baker reports seeing as he approaches the elevators.
The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)
This is a lie.
A deliberate falsehood.
You should be ashamed of yourself for constantly peddling this lie.
It shows a lack of character.
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As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies
Interesting and certainly food for thought. Having said that, I'm struggling to understand what possible reason Shelley and Lovelady would have to lie.
Also, if they did lie, why would Lovelady be so hesitant to identify Vickie Adams as the woman he saw?
They are lying to cover up their presence by the elevators in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
In their affidavits both men give the impression they went straight back inside the building very shortly after the shooting. In all their subsequent statements they are at pains to emphasise how long it was before they went back inside, culminating in Lovelady's HSCA whopper, that it was 15 to 20 minutes before he went back inside.
Vicki Adams saw them and they saw her. The reason both men refuse to mention Vicki is because it places them by the elevators on the first floor seconds after the shooting. If they acknowledge they saw Vicki and that she spoke to them, they place themselves at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady suddenly blurting out he couldn't swear it was Vicki he saw is comedic.
The reason Adams and Styles are not in the Dillard pic is because they are already on their way.
The reason Adams and Styles never see Truly and Baker (and vice versa) is because their paths never cross - the girls are already out the back door before Truly and Baker get to the elevators (where Baker sees two white men hanging around). This is the only way the Stroud document can make sense.
Vicki Adams saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor seconds after the shooting. She knew who they were and spoke to them.
This means, apart from their same day affidavits, Lovelady and Shelley continually lie about where they were in the aftermath of the shooting.
Why would they do this?
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Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people. Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds.
In the case of Vicki Adams, "immediate" means within ten seconds.
I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
The Dillard picture is proof Adams was already on her way downstairs.
Adams decides to set off before the limo has reached the underpass (something confirmed by the Dillard picture). According to your star witness, Brennan, the shooter is still stood in the SN at this time:
"Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."
So there's no need to worry about Adams not hearing Oswald on the stairs!! ::)
Adams hits the first floor and is out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators (confirmed by the Stroud document).
But she passes close by Lovelady and Shelley, who have raced to the back of the TSBD building for some unspecified reason. She is a witness to their presence at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady and Shelley must be the two white men Baker reports seeing as he approaches the elevators.
The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)
This is a lie.
A deliberate falsehood.
You should be ashamed of yourself for constantly peddling this lie.
It shows a lack of character.
I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! [/u]He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."
If any of this were true where is Oswald in the picture?
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I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! [/u]He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."
If any of this were true where is Oswald in the picture?
The Dillard pic is definitely true.
It definitely shows that Adams, Styles and Garner have left the window they were looking out of.
This shows they had left that location within ten seconds of the shooting, give or take a couple of seconds.
This ties in with Adams reportedly saying she decided to find out what was going on before the limo had even reached the underpass.
It now becomes clear why she never saw Baker or Truly on the stairs - she was well ahead of them.
As for Oswald...you tell me.
And while you're at it, you can tell me why Lovelady and Shelley lied about being by the elevators on the first floor seconds after the shooting.
-
The Dillard pic is definitely true.
It definitely shows that Adams, Styles and Garner have left the window they were looking out of.
This shows they had left that location within ten seconds of the shooting, give or take a couple of seconds.
This ties in with Adams reportedly saying she decided to find out what was going on before the limo had even reached the underpass.
It now becomes clear why she never saw Baker or Truly on the stairs - she was well ahead of them.
As for Oswald...you tell me.
And while you're at it, you can tell me why Lovelady and Shelley lied about being by the elevators on the first floor seconds after the shooting.
Oswald is not visible, Harold Norman is not visible, if the girls were standing back a little in the room too, we probably would not see them either. One person standing close to the window takes up the whole window as can be seen next to the open window. Elsie Dorman was sitting on the floor there at the window filming the motorcade with her husband's camera. She is not seen either. The window starts 14 inches off of the floor and only opens up to a max of 3 to 4 feet, if it is like the fifth and sixth floors windows.
Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.
-
Oswald is not visible, Harold Norman is not visible, if the girls were standing back a little in the room too, we probably would not see them either. One person standing close to the window takes up the whole window as can be seen next to the open window. Elsie Dorman was sitting on the floor there at the window filming the motorcade with her husband's camera. She is not seen either. The window starts 14 inches off of the floor and only opens up to a max of 3 to 4 feet, if it is like the fifth and sixth floors windows.
Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.
A completely meaningless post.
In the pic below Adams, Styles, Garner and Dorman are supposed to be stood at the open set of windows. They are nowhere to be seen. Look to the set of windows to the left and there is a woman stood looking out of the window. Look at how much of her we can see - from her knees upwards. Even if Adams and co. were stood "back a little in the room" we would still see them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This is exactly the kind of piss-weak response i was expecting.
Ignore all the testimony, ignore the photographic evidence and make up a piss-poor scenario that isn't attested to anywhere.
Good work Jack.
Adams states in numerous and various different ways that immediately after the shooting she raced down the stairs with Sandra Styles. Dorothy Garner has stated she followed them out of the office in time to hear them clattering down the stairs. After a couple of minutes she saw Truly and an officer (obviously Baker) coming up the same stairs.
Adams and Styles never see Truly and Baker. Truly and Baker never see Adams and Styles. The Dillard pic explains why - Adams and Styles were gone within ten seconds of the shooting and were running flat out. They hit the first floor and were out the back door before Truly and Baker were on the scene.
At no point is there any hint or mention of the women going to the back of the office for a chat. It's just a really weak attempt to change what the evidence is telling us.
Adams wants to know what's going on. She believes the President has been shot at and may have been hit. Before the limo reaches the underpass she decides to race outside to find out what's going on. She talks to everyone she meets if they know about the President being shot. She listens to the radio transmissions on the motorcycle to try and get some information about it.
To put forward the suggestion that she waited out of sight of the only windows she could see out of, towards the back of the office, is genuinely poor.
The reason Adams and Styles are not seen in the Dillard pic is because they are already racing out of the office - just like they said they did. Confirmed by Garner. Confirmed by the Stroud document.
Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.
I see I'm going to have to spoon feed you the point I've been labouring to make in my last few posts -
Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the shooting!
That is the importance of what Adams witnesses.
Within a matter of seconds she is on the first floor. Lovelady and Shelley are already there!
In their affidavits taken a couple of hours after the assassination neither man mentions staying outside of the building for any amount of time. Neither mention going down the Elm Street extension. Neither mention hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on. Neither mention re-entering the building through the west door. Both men give the distinct impression that they went back inside the building, through the front door, almost immediately after the shooting.
Adams confirms that this is exactly what they did.
In all their subsequent statements both Shelley and Lovelady lied about staying outside after the assassination.
They lied to cover up the fact that they had rushed towards the back of the TSBD building within seconds of the shooting.
Why did they do that?
Note - it's strange how everyone really relies on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady for various timings. I had done it myself until I listened to the recording of the interview posted in this thread. It hadn't dawned on me to simply accept what Adams was saying - that she immediately raced downstairs, she hit the first floor within one minute of the shooting and Lovelady and Shelley were already there.
If Lovelady and, in particular, Shelley, were lying through their teeth about their movements after the assassination, what else did they lie about?
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If Lovelady and, in particular, Shelley, were lying through their teeth about their movements after the assassination, what else did they lie about?
Running guns for the Cuban fight:
https://jfk.boards.net/post/7272/thread
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A completely meaningless post.
In the pic below Adams, Styles, Garner and Dorman are supposed to be stood at the open set of windows. They are nowhere to be seen. Look to the set of windows to the left and there is a woman stood looking out of the window. Look at how much of her we can see - from her knees upwards. Even if Adams and co. were stood "back a little in the room" we would still see them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This is exactly the kind of piss-weak response i was expecting.
Ignore all the testimony, ignore the photographic evidence and make up a piss-poor scenario that isn't attested to anywhere.
Good work Jack.
Adams states in numerous and various different ways that immediately after the shooting she raced down the stairs with Sandra Styles. Dorothy Garner has stated she followed them out of the office in time to hear them clattering down the stairs. After a couple of minutes she saw Truly and an officer (obviously Baker) coming up the same stairs.
Adams and Styles never see Truly and Baker. Truly and Baker never see Adams and Styles. The Dillard pic explains why - Adams and Styles were gone within ten seconds of the shooting and were running flat out. They hit the first floor and were out the back door before Truly and Baker were on the scene.
At no point is there any hint or mention of the women going to the back of the office for a chat. It's just a really weak attempt to change what the evidence is telling us.
Adams wants to know what's going on. She believes the President has been shot at and may have been hit. Before the limo reaches the underpass she decides to race outside to find out what's going on. She talks to everyone she meets if they know about the President being shot. She listens to the radio transmissions on the motorcycle to try and get some information about it.
To put forward the suggestion that she waited out of sight of the only windows she could see out of, towards the back of the office, is genuinely poor.
The reason Adams and Styles are not seen in the Dillard pic is because they are already racing out of the office - just like they said they did. Confirmed by Garner. Confirmed by the Stroud document.
Shelley stated they ran across the street where he spoke to Calvary. Lovelady stated they headed towards the limo and it sped off. He states they stayed there for approximately 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD.
I see I'm going to have to spoon feed you the point I've been labouring to make in my last few posts -
Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the shooting!
That is the importance of what Adams witnesses.
Within a matter of seconds she is on the first floor. Lovelady and Shelley are already there!
In their affidavits taken a couple of hours after the assassination neither man mentions staying outside of the building for any amount of time. Neither mention going down the Elm Street extension. Neither mention hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on. Neither mention re-entering the building through the west door. Both men give the distinct impression that they went back inside the building, through the front door, almost immediately after the shooting.
Adams confirms that this is exactly what they did.
In all their subsequent statements both Shelley and Lovelady lied about staying outside after the assassination.
They lied to cover up the fact that they had rushed towards the back of the TSBD building within seconds of the shooting.
Why did they do that?
Note - it's strange how everyone really relies on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady for various timings. I had done it myself until I listened to the recording of the interview posted in this thread. It hadn't dawned on me to simply accept what Adams was saying - that she immediately raced downstairs, she hit the first floor within one minute of the shooting and Lovelady and Shelley were already there.
If Lovelady and, in particular, Shelley, were lying through their teeth about their movements after the assassination, what else did they lie about?
Another Ignored Witness Found
© 2011 by Barry Ernest
When she first heard the shots, Dorothy Ann Garner was sitting at
a desk behind a fourth-floor window of the Texas School Book
Depository............
.....On November 22, 1963, Mrs. Garner took a break from her duties
and joined the three other women to watch as the presidential
motorcade passed below. Elsie Dorman sat on the floor behind a
window that had been partially opened for her benefit; she was filming
the event with her husband's recently purchased video camera. Behind
her stood Miss Styles and Miss Adams.
The woman in the window is who? The open window would only come to her waist which explains Dorman filming while sitting on the floor in front of the window.
Garner was at her desk during the assassination and only goes to the window later to see what was going on and stands by Adams and Styles. She only joins them after the motorcade had passed.
Dorman was sitting on the floor filming. Where is she? Adams and Styles would not be in front of Dorman. They would be behind her farther into the room just like Garner states.
Where is Norman? Both he and Williams were seen leaning out the window and looking up immediately after the shooting. He is not even in the picture.
===============================
You think with all that is going on outside that Shelley and Lovelady sprinted inside and stood by the elevator? Really? Why were they concerned about the elevator?
Shelley stated from day 1 that he ran over to the park where he encountered Calvery. Lovelady said “when it was over” they went back to the building. That could mean when they were done walking around, they then returned to the TSBD. It makes no sense that Shelley and Lovelady would sprint into the building to stand by the elevator.
-
Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people. Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds.
In the case of Vicki Adams, "immediate" means within ten seconds.
I can't wait to hear your piss-weak explanation for why we can't see any of the four women at the open window on the fourth floor.
The Dillard picture is proof Adams was already on her way downstairs.
Adams decides to set off before the limo has reached the underpass (something confirmed by the Dillard picture). According to your star witness, Brennan, the shooter is still stood in the SN at this time:
"Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision."
So there's no need to worry about Adams not hearing Oswald on the stairs!! ::)
Adams hits the first floor and is out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators (confirmed by the Stroud document).
But she passes close by Lovelady and Shelley, who have raced to the back of the TSBD building for some unspecified reason. She is a witness to their presence at that location seconds after the shooting.
Lovelady and Shelley must be the two white men Baker reports seeing as he approaches the elevators.
The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30)
This is a lie.
A deliberate falsehood.
You should be ashamed of yourself for constantly peddling this lie.
It shows a lack of character.
It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow. You have a real emotional investment in his guilt. No wonder logic is wasted. Try to remove yourself from the forest of pedantic details many of which can't be possibly known down the level of seconds that you suggest absent a time machine. Ask yourself this simple question which involves the use of logic to answer. If Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, doesn't that demonstrate beyond any doubt that he could move between those points without being seen regardless of your desperate pedantic interpretation of Adams words, recollections, and movements down to a few seconds? If a thing has been done, that is the absolute best proof that it can be done. Nothing further is required to prove that point. Rather, a reassessment has to be made to the evidence that suggests it couldn't happen.
You already must accept most parts of that logical equation. You don't dispute that Oswald was on the 2nd floor just a couple minutes after the assassination. You don't dispute that to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor between 12:30 and the time Oswald was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom the only way to get there in that timeframe was down the stairs. You don't dispute that no one saw him or anyone else on those stairs. We know someone was on the 6th floor at 12:30. The only missing variable in the logic equation for you is apparently that it was Oswald on the 6th floor. Any reasonable person would accept the mountain of evidence that he left behind to support that conclusion but even the most outlandish CTer must accept as part of any conspiracy that involves the framing Oswald is the critical component that he would not have been allowed to roam about the building while the conspirators were trying to frame him. He certainly could not be allowed to sit in the lunchroom where he might have been given an alibi. That is laughable. What if he had done the most likely thing like most others and went outside to watch the motorcade? Oswald would have been accounted for on the 6th floor. And we know someone was on the 6th floor since witnesses saw that person and/or a rifle pointed out the window at the moment of the assassination. He and/or your fantasy assassins must then have been able to go down the stairs unnoticed because that is what happened. The endless rabbit hole analysis of Adams is just an example of CTers not being able to see the forest for all the trees.
-
It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow. You have a real emotional investment in his guilt. No wonder logic is wasted. Try to remove yourself from the forest of pedantic details many of which can't be possibly known down the level of seconds that you suggest absent a time machine. Ask yourself this simple question which involves the use of logic to answer. If Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, doesn't that demonstrate beyond any doubt that he could move between those points without being seen regardless of your desperate pedantic interpretation of Adams words, recollections, and movements down to a few seconds? If a thing has been done, that is the absolute best proof that it can be done. Nothing further is required to prove that point. Rather, a reassessment has to be made to the evidence that suggests it couldn't happen.
You already must accept most parts of that logical equation. You don't dispute that Oswald was on the 2nd floor just a couple minutes after the assassination. You don't dispute that to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor between 12:30 and the time Oswald was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom the only way to get there in that timeframe was down the stairs. You don't dispute that no one saw him or anyone else on those stairs. We know someone was on the 6th floor at 12:30. The only missing variable in the logic equation for you is apparently that it was Oswald on the 6th floor. Any reasonable person would accept the mountain of evidence that he left behind to support that conclusion but even the most outlandish CTer must accept as part of any conspiracy that involves the framing Oswald is the critical component that he would not have been allowed to roam about the building while the conspirators were trying to frame him. He certainly could not be allowed to sit in the lunchroom where he might have been given an alibi. That is laughable. What if he had done the most likely thing like most others and went outside to watch the motorcade? Oswald would have been accounted for on the 6th floor. And we know someone was on the 6th floor since witnesses saw that person and/or a rifle pointed out the window at the moment of the assassination. He and/or your fantasy assassins must then have been able to go down the stairs unnoticed because that is what happened. The endless rabbit hole analysis of Adams is just an example of CTers not being able to see the forest for all the trees.
It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow.
No, it shows a total lack of character to pretend there is evidence to base such a conclusion on, when in fact there isn't even a shred of such evidence.
Try to remove yourself from the forest of pedantic details many of which can't be possibly known
Hilarious!
Translation; never mind the actual details, which I can not prove, just accept the superficial BS I offer as "evidence" and jump to a conclusion based on pathetic assumptions.....
Any clown who claims inconvenient details don't matter is not worth the time of day.
You already must accept most parts of that logical equation. You don't dispute that Oswald was on the 2nd floor just a couple minutes after the assassination. You don't dispute that to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor between 12:30 and the time Oswald was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom the only way to get there in that timeframe was down the stairs. You don't dispute that no one saw him or anyone else on those stairs. We know someone was on the 6th floor at 12:30. The only missing variable in the logic equation for you is apparently that it was Oswald on the 6th floor.
Thanks for a perfect demonstration of how a massive LN assumption, in your mind, suddenly becomes "evidence"!
"We know somebody was on the 6th floor and as we don't know for sure where Oswald was, he must have been the one that was on the 6th floor"
What is actually the most comical about this is that you don't even understand that what your are saying is nothing more than a superficial assumption for which there is no evidence.
-
Another Ignored Witness Found
© 2011 by Barry Ernest
When she first heard the shots, Dorothy Ann Garner was sitting at
a desk behind a fourth-floor window of the Texas School Book
Depository............
.....On November 22, 1963, Mrs. Garner took a break from her duties
and joined the three other women to watch as the presidential
motorcade passed below. Elsie Dorman sat on the floor behind a
window that had been partially opened for her benefit; she was filming
the event with her husband's recently purchased video camera. Behind
her stood Miss Styles and Miss Adams.
The woman in the window is who? The open window would only come to her waist which explains Dorman filming while sitting on the floor in front of the window.
Garner was at her desk during the assassination and only goes to the window later to see what was going on and stands by Adams and Styles. She only joins them after the motorcade had passed.
Dorman was sitting on the floor filming. Where is she? Adams and Styles would not be in front of Dorman. They would be behind her farther into the room just like Garner states.
Where is Norman? Both he and Williams were seen leaning out the window and looking up immediately after the shooting. He is not even in the picture.
===============================
You think with all that is going on outside that Shelley and Lovelady sprinted inside and stood by the elevator? Really? Why were they concerned about the elevator?
Shelley stated from day 1 that he ran over to the park where he encountered Calvery. Lovelady said “when it was over” they went back to the building. That could mean when they were done walking around, they then returned to the TSBD. It makes no sense that Shelley and Lovelady would sprint into the building to stand by the elevator.
Dorman was sitting on the floor filming. Where is she? Adams and Styles would not be in front of Dorman. They would be behind her farther into the room just like Garner states.
Where are they Jack? Why can't we see them?
Because they're stood farther into the room??
Is that why you're saying we can't see Adams and Styles in the Dillard pic?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTCgRxZj/Dillard-TSBDclose.png) (https://postimages.org/)free screenshot software (https://postimages.org/app)
These quotes from Vicki are taken from Pat Speer's website:
"After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away."
"Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car..."
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away.”
"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.'
Adams sees Jackie trying to get out of the limo and Hill jumping on to stop her. Then she sees the limo speed away towards the triple underpass. In order to see these things she must be close to the window looking towards the underpass. The diagram below gives a very rough idea of how far to the west of Adams position these events take place. She must be stood directly behind Dorman, leaning over to look out of the window.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqQX6fd0/Dealey-Plaza-Plan-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The Dillard picture is taken within 5 seconds of these events yet Adams and Styles are nowhere to be seen in it. Adams makes it clear that before the limo reached the underpass she decided to race downstairs:
"After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away...She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs are located."
"After the third shot I went out the back door."
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs..."
"I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."
You are free to ignore the physical evidence, free to ignore the photographic evidence, free to ignore the testimonial evidence and free to ignore common sense. I would expect no less from a Nutter.
But remember, this reflects on your own qualities as a "researcher".
Just out of interest - why are you so insistent that Adams didn't race down the stairs within seconds of the third shot?
What is it that you don't like about it?
Why are you so willing to ignore the available evidence?
You think with all that is going on outside that Shelley and Lovelady sprinted inside and stood by the elevator? Really? Why were they concerned about the elevator?
Why not read my posts? It would really help with this discussion.
I am taking Vicki's words at face value. The words recorded in her WC testimony and the exact same words she repeated in the interview posted in the OP of this thread.
She is saying that she raced downstairs immediately and was on the first floor within 30 - 60 seconds of the last shot. The Dillard picture confirms this. As does the Stroud document. When she reached the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators.
These are her words.
I am examining the ramifications of these words.
I am asking the same question you are asking - why did Lovelady and Shelley race immediately towards the back of the TSBD building after the shooting? And why did they lie about it in all their subsequent testimonies?
-
It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow. You have a real emotional investment in his guilt. No wonder logic is wasted. Try to remove yourself from the forest of pedantic details many of which can't be possibly known down the level of seconds that you suggest absent a time machine. Ask yourself this simple question which involves the use of logic to answer. If Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 and on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, doesn't that demonstrate beyond any doubt that he could move between those points without being seen regardless of your desperate pedantic interpretation of Adams words, recollections, and movements down to a few seconds? If a thing has been done, that is the absolute best proof that it can be done. Nothing further is required to prove that point. Rather, a reassessment has to be made to the evidence that suggests it couldn't happen.
You already must accept most parts of that logical equation. You don't dispute that Oswald was on the 2nd floor just a couple minutes after the assassination. You don't dispute that to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor between 12:30 and the time Oswald was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom the only way to get there in that timeframe was down the stairs. You don't dispute that no one saw him or anyone else on those stairs. We know someone was on the 6th floor at 12:30. The only missing variable in the logic equation for you is apparently that it was Oswald on the 6th floor. Any reasonable person would accept the mountain of evidence that he left behind to support that conclusion but even the most outlandish CTer must accept as part of any conspiracy that involves the framing Oswald is the critical component that he would not have been allowed to roam about the building while the conspirators were trying to frame him. He certainly could not be allowed to sit in the lunchroom where he might have been given an alibi. That is laughable. What if he had done the most likely thing like most others and went outside to watch the motorcade? Oswald would have been accounted for on the 6th floor. And we know someone was on the 6th floor since witnesses saw that person and/or a rifle pointed out the window at the moment of the assassination. He and/or your fantasy assassins must then have been able to go down the stairs unnoticed because that is what happened. The endless rabbit hole analysis of Adams is just an example of CTers not being able to see the forest for all the trees.
"It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow."
This shows how devious you are.
The "lack of character" reference was with regard to your constant peddling of the lie that the evidence places Oswald in the SN at 12:30pm taking the shots.
It's a lie - a deliberate falsehood. You know that the evidence does not show this yet you constantly peddle this lie.
This does indeed show a lack of character. As does your devious attempt to squirm out of your lie.
Luckily, your deviousness is as pathetic as your "logic".
If a thing has been done, that is the absolute best proof that it can be done. Nothing further is required to prove that point.
:D :D :D
And hear we have a prime example of "Smith's Logic"
IF OSWALD DID IT, THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST PROOF THAT IT CAN BE DONE. NOTHING FURTHER IS REQUIRED TO PROVE THAT POINT!!
A child would be embarrassed by this logic.
Past experience of crushing you in front of the forum has taught me a very simple lesson - introduce some evidence and ask you a question you can't answer:
Where are Adams and Styles in the Dillard picture?
Goodbye Thumb1:
-
"It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow."
This shows how devious you are.
The "lack of character" reference was with regard to your constant peddling of the lie that the evidence places Oswald in the SN at 12:30pm taking the shots.
It's a lie - a deliberate falsehood. You know that the evidence does not show this yet you constantly peddle this lie.
This does indeed show a lack of character. As does your devious attempt to squirm out of your lie.
Luckily, your deviousness is as pathetic as your "logic".
If a thing has been done, that is the absolute best proof that it can be done. Nothing further is required to prove that point.
:D :D :D
And hear we have a prime example of "Smith's Logic"
IF OSWALD DID IT, THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST PROOF THAT IT CAN BE DONE. NOTHING FURTHER IS REQUIRED TO PROVE THAT POINT!!
A child would be embarrassed by this logic.
Past experience of crushing you in front of the forum has taught me a very simple lesson - introduce some evidence and ask you a question you can't answer:
Where are Adams and Styles in the Dillard picture?
Goodbye Thumb1:
And hear we have a prime example of "Smith's Logic"
IF OSWALD DID IT, THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST PROOF THAT IT CAN BE DONE. NOTHING FURTHER IS REQUIRED TO PROVE THAT POINT!!
A child would be embarrassed by this logic.
What else do you expect from a guy who actually believes that the best evidence that Oswald came down the stairs unseen, within 75 seconds after the shots, is........"that it happened" :D :D :D :D :D
Only a completely delusional individual is able to make a stupid statement as this!
-
Dorman was sitting on the floor filming. Where is she? Adams and Styles would not be in front of Dorman. They would be behind her farther into the room just like Garner states.
Where are they Jack? Why can't we see them?
Because they're stood farther into the room??
Is that why you're saying we can't see Adams and Styles in the Dillard pic?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTCgRxZj/Dillard-TSBDclose.png) (https://postimages.org/)free screenshot software (https://postimages.org/app)
These quotes from Vicki are taken from Pat Speer's website:
"After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away."
"Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car..."
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away.”
"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.'
Adams sees Jackie trying to get out of the limo and Hill jumping on to stop her. Then she sees the limo speed away towards the triple underpass. In order to see these things she must be close to the window looking towards the underpass. The diagram below gives a very rough idea of how far to the west of Adams position these events take place. She must be stood directly behind Dorman, leaning over to look out of the window.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqQX6fd0/Dealey-Plaza-Plan-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The Dillard picture is taken within 5 seconds of these events yet Adams and Styles are nowhere to be seen in it. Adams makes it clear that before the limo reached the underpass she decided to race downstairs:
"After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away...She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs are located."
"After the third shot I went out the back door."
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs..."
"I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."
You are free to ignore the physical evidence, free to ignore the photographic evidence, free to ignore the testimonial evidence and free to ignore common sense. I would expect no less from a Nutter.
But remember, this reflects on your own qualities as a "researcher".
Just out of interest - why are you so insistent that Adams didn't race down the stairs within seconds of the third shot?
What is it that you don't like about it?
Why are you so willing to ignore the available evidence?
You think with all that is going on outside that Shelley and Lovelady sprinted inside and stood by the elevator? Really? Why were they concerned about the elevator?
Why not read my posts? It would really help with this discussion.
I am taking Vicki's words at face value. The words recorded in her WC testimony and the exact same words she repeated in the interview posted in the OP of this thread.
She is saying that she raced downstairs immediately and was on the first floor within 30 - 60 seconds of the last shot. The Dillard picture confirms this. As does the Stroud document. When she reached the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators.
These are her words.
I am examining the ramifications of these words.
I am asking the same question you are asking - why did Lovelady and Shelley race immediately towards the back of the TSBD building after the shooting? And why did they lie about it in all their subsequent testimonies?
Where are they Jack? Why can't we see them?
Exactly right what is not seen but should be seen is important. We can’t see Elsie Dorman and we cannot see Harold Norman. Where are they and why are they not visible if the photo is 5 seconds after the third shot. What is known is Adams and styles were behind Dorman. If you can’t see Dorman, you definitely would not be able to see Adams and Styles. You don’t know if they are there or not.
Adams sees Jackie trying to get out of the limo and Hill jumping on to stop her. Then she sees the limo speed away towards the triple underpass. In order to see these things she must be close to the window looking towards the underpass. The diagram below gives a very rough idea of how far to the west of Adams position these events take place. She must be stood directly behind Dorman, leaning over to look out of the window.
You can stand back from the window and see the roadway. The window is only 14 inches off the ground. She would be looking out of the top half of the window. The bottom half of the window was too low for her to look through. Maybe she is the person in the next window.
You are free to ignore the physical evidence, free to ignore the photographic evidence, free to ignore the testimonial evidence and free to ignore common sense. I would expect no less from a Nutter.
But remember, this reflects on your own qualities as a "researcher".
The fact here to be considered is in her first statement to the FBI on 11/24, she had no idea what was going on and “she heard three loud reports which she first thought to be firecrackers of a crank”, not gunshots. Then they are watching the panicked people scatter. Her view was partially blocked by the tree. She never saw the president shot. All the additional knowledge came later.
Just out of interest - why are you so insistent that Adams didn't race down the stairs within seconds of the third shot?
What is it that you don't like about it?
Why are you so willing to ignore the available evidence?
The available evidence is lacking. Her story does not match the known times and statements of the other individuals involved. Shelley and Lovelady were outside until they returned at a later time. From day 1 Shelley states he went across the street to the park area where he encountered Calvery. So based on your timeline it would be impossible for him to be at the elevator. He is at the elevator 5 minutes later. Det Sawyer, Sgt Harkness, Patrolman Barnett, and Shelley and Lovelady provide time stamps that coincide with the movement of Adams and Styles. Those timestamps place Adams and Styles leaving the 4th floor at a later time than they estimate.
Why not read my posts? It would really help with this discussion.
I have been reading them. The people missing in the picture idea is interesting but upon closer scrutiny has some very obvious flaws that call it into serious question. What you believe to be a fact can be easily explained in a more obvious manner and brings on more questions than it answers.
I am taking Vicki's words at face value.
But only hers and not anybody else's, they are being called liars.
When she reached the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators.
These are her words.
True. They said it was at 5 minutes post shot, not one minute later.
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Where are they Jack? Why can't we see them?
Exactly right what is not seen but should be seen is important. We can’t see Elsie Dorman and we cannot see Harold Norman. Where are they and why are they not visible if the photo is 5 seconds after the third shot. What is known is Adams and styles were behind Dorman. If you can’t see Dorman, you definitely would not be able to see Adams and Styles. You don’t know if they are there or not.
Adams sees Jackie trying to get out of the limo and Hill jumping on to stop her. Then she sees the limo speed away towards the triple underpass. In order to see these things she must be close to the window looking towards the underpass. The diagram below gives a very rough idea of how far to the west of Adams position these events take place. She must be stood directly behind Dorman, leaning over to look out of the window.
You can stand back from the window and see the roadway. The window is only 14 inches off the ground. She would be looking out of the top half of the window. The bottom half of the window was too low for her to look through. Maybe she is the person in the next window.
You are free to ignore the physical evidence, free to ignore the photographic evidence, free to ignore the testimonial evidence and free to ignore common sense. I would expect no less from a Nutter.
But remember, this reflects on your own qualities as a "researcher".
The fact here to be considered is in her first statement to the FBI on 11/24, she had no idea what was going on and “she heard three loud reports which she first thought to be firecrackers of a crank”, not gunshots. Then they are watching the panicked people scatter. Her view was partially blocked by the tree. She never saw the president shot. All the additional knowledge came later.
Just out of interest - why are you so insistent that Adams didn't race down the stairs within seconds of the third shot?
What is it that you don't like about it?
Why are you so willing to ignore the available evidence?
The available evidence is lacking. Her story does not match the known times and statements of the other individuals involved. Shelley and Lovelady were outside until they returned at a later time. From day 1 Shelley states he went across the street to the park area where he encountered Calvery. So based on your timeline it would be impossible for him to be at the elevator. He is at the elevator 5 minutes later. Det Sawyer, Sgt Harkness, Patrolman Barnett, and Shelley and Lovelady provide time stamps that coincide with the movement of Adams and Styles. Those timestamps place Adams and Styles leaving the 4th floor at a later time than they estimate.
Why not read my posts? It would really help with this discussion.
I have been reading them. The people missing in the picture idea is interesting but upon closer scrutiny has some very obvious flaws that call it into serious question. What you believe to be a fact can be easily explained in a more obvious manner and brings on more questions than it answers.
I am taking Vicki's words at face value.
But only hers and not anybody else's, they are being called liars.
When she reached the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators.
These are her words.
True. They said it was at 5 minutes post shot, not one minute later.
Exactly right what is not seen but should be seen is important.
Yeah Jack, that's what I'm saying.
If Adams and Styles don't immediately race down the steps then they should still be at the window. But they're not. They're nowhere to be seen.
The reason for this is because, as Adams states in various different ways, within a few short seconds after the last shot is taken both she and Styles are running towards the back stairs.
I know you think she's lying, but the Dillard pic shows otherwise.
What is known is Adams and styles were behind Dorman. If you can’t see Dorman, you definitely would not be able to see Adams and Styles.
:D :D
This is a piece of logic Dick would be proud of.
And your fixation with Harold Norman is really odd.
You don’t know if they are there or not.
:D :D :D
They are definitely not there Jack.
What a bizarre thing to say!
One last time - in the last crop of the Dillard pic I posted there is a woman (either Yola Hopson or Ruth Nelson) stood in the set of windows to the west of the open window Adams and Styles were looking out of before they raced downstairs (I won't bother posting the pic again). She is stood as close to the window as Adams would need to be to see down towards the underpass and we can see her from the knees upwards as the window sills are only a few inches off the floor.
But when we look at the open window Adams and Styles and Dorman are supposed to be at there is absolutely no sign of them.
How far back in the room would they need to be before we couldn't see them ?
It would have to be a few feet at least. Why would they be stood a few feet back from the window? How could they see down towards the underpass if they were stood a few feet back in the room?
The scenario you are presenting is completely nuts (mind you, you are a Nutter).
It's incomprehensible how you can stand by such a ridiculous assertion and still consider yourself serious.
Adams isn't there because she and Styles are already racing towards the back stairs. She decides to race downstairs immediately after the third shot and before the limo has reached the underpass. Less than five seconds later the Dillard pic is taken, proving Adams was true to her words.
Your denial of this evidence is disappointing.
You can stand back from the window and see the roadway. The window is only 14 inches off the ground.
I know it's possible to see the road if you stand back from the window. That's not what I was saying - you're starting to come across a bit like Tricky Dicky.
The point I was making was that she would need to be stood close to the window to see towards the underpass as it's off to her right.
You know that's the point I was making as well.
Once this sort of trickiness is required it's a sure sign you're not interested in evidence, reason or honest debate.
Here's a question I will be requiring an answer to - in your BS: scenario, how far back from the window are Adams and Styles stood?
From day 1 Shelley states he went across the street to the park area where he encountered Calvery. So based on your timeline it would be impossible for him to be at the elevator.
How so?
I too accept that after the first shot Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension and encountered Calvery.
Det Sawyer, Sgt Harkness, Patrolman Barnett, and Shelley and Lovelady provide time stamps that coincide with the movement of Adams and Styles.
Sawyer, Barnett and Harkness have absolutely nothing to do with providing timestamps for the movements of Adams and Styles.
Only Shelley and Lovelady do, and they were lying to cover their tracks.
But only hers and not anybody else's, they are being called liars.
In regard to the movements of Adams and Styles, the only people I'm calling liars are Shelley and Lovelady.
True. They said it was at 5 minutes post shot, not one minute later.
I'm not going to ask you to cite where Shelley and Lovelady state they were near the elevators "5 minutes post shot".
We both know they said nothing of the sort.
You think Adams is a liar - you don't believe her when she says she took off at a run after the last shot and before the limo reached the underpass. Even though the Dillard pic is photographic evidence perfectly confirming this account.
It is also the only way the Stroud document makes sense - for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither pair to see the other, can only happen if Adams and Styles race off immediately. It can happen no other way.
So ignore all this evidence like a good Nutter.
I think Shelley and Lovelady are liars but you think they're solid, but we've never really established which version of events you think they're telling the truth about.
Is it the version where Lovelady never leaves the steps and both men immediately re-enter the TSBD after the shooting and never go down to the railroad yard?
Or is it the version where they both race down to where the limo was and stay there for about 5 five minutes? - adding the time it would take to get there, get back to the TSBD and then to the elevators, it's difficult to understand how they could be seen by Adams 5 minutes after the shooting.
Or is it the version where they accompany some police officers to the railroad yard and stay there for ten minutes? - again, it's very difficult to imagine how they could be at the elevators within 5 five minutes, as you keep on insisting.
Or is it the version where they see Baker and Truly still stood outside the TSBD at least 3 minutes after the shooting, and they spend a few more minutes at the "little old island" then down at the railroad yard?
Or is it the version where Lovelady doesn't go back inside the TSBD building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting?
Which version is it Jack?
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While the Nutters run for the hills, I'd like to make a final point about the lies of Lovelady and Shelley.
Reading through the wildly varying statements provided by them there can be little doubt both men are lying about their movements in the aftermath of the immediate shooting. Just to put the last nail in that particular coffin, I came across this in Speer's website:
(George and Patricia Nash-penned article The Other Witnesses, published in the 10-12-64 issue of The New Leader) "Bill Shelley. Oswald's foreman. and others who worked in the building told us that Charles Givens was missing from the sixth floor work crew. Shelley said he was sent outside in an unsuccessful attempt to locate Givens. and there was talk of sending out an 'all-points bulletin' on the missing man... (On the timing of Baker's entry into the building) "Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered five or six minutes after the shooting."
This is the most brazen aspect of their lying - the insistence that Baker and Truly did not enter the TSBD building for 3 - 6 minutes after the shooting. It's unbelievable they got away with repeatedly telling this whopper, but it is the fact they were not questioned about this lie in their WC testimonies that really stands out. For part of the Commission's investigation, time trials were undertaken by Baker and Truly to establish how quickly they got up to the second floor lunchroom. The results of these time trials were well known to the Commission but when both Shelley and Lovelady openly stated that Baker and Truly were still outside the TSBD building at least 3 minutes after the shooting (in fact, Baker and Truly reached the lunchroom in less than half this time), the Commission never questioned them about this.
Instead, the Commission used the timings given by Shelley and Lovelady to undermine the testimony of Adams!!
This should be a major source of concern about the validity of their testimonies but the WC hearings are such a monumental travesty it hardly gets noticed.
It should be interesting to see how the Nutters try to negotiate this particular hurdle.
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"It shows a "lack of character" to conclude that Oswald was guilty based upon the evidence. Wow."
This shows how devious you are.
The "lack of character" reference was with regard to your constant peddling of the lie that the evidence places Oswald in the SN at 12:30pm taking the shots.
It's a lie - a deliberate falsehood. You know that the evidence does not show this yet you constantly peddle this lie.
This does indeed show a lack of character. As does your devious attempt to squirm out of your lie.
Luckily, your deviousness is as pathetic as your "logic".
If a thing has been done, that is the absolute best proof that it can be done. Nothing further is required to prove that point.
:D :D :D
And hear we have a prime example of "Smith's Logic"
IF OSWALD DID IT, THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST PROOF THAT IT CAN BE DONE. NOTHING FURTHER IS REQUIRED TO PROVE THAT POINT!!
A child would be embarrassed by this logic.
Past experience of crushing you in front of the forum has taught me a very simple lesson - introduce some evidence and ask you a question you can't answer:
Where are Adams and Styles in the Dillard picture?
Goodbye Thumb1:
You sound like a petulant child who is slowly learning that there is no Santa Claus and is throwing a tantrum. Very amusing. Try this. Here is what a mature adult would do if they actually believed they had evidence that suggests a conspiracy to kill JFK or creates doubt as to the historically accepted fact that Oswald did it. Take your argument/evidence to the NY Times or the DPD or FBI and explain that you have proven a conspiracy to assassinate JFK or at least created doubt or whatever you are calling this endless pedantic nonsense. Let us know what they say. I bet it's not that you have "crushed" the official conclusion. Or are they all still "in" on the plot? LOL.
How is it a "lie" that the evidence places Oswald in the SN? Perhaps you have a different interpretation of that evidence, but it is not a "lie" to characterize that evidence as placing him there. Every official investigation has come to that conclusion based on the evidence. None have accepted your silly theory. It is immature to get that emotional when someone disagrees with your pedantic nonsense. Even the most outlandish CTer must acknowledge that the evidence suggests Oswald was in the SN. Why? Because even in a conspiracy to frame Oswald, the evidence would have been planted to frame Oswald for the crime by placing him in the SN! That would be the entire purpose of planting the evidence in a conspiracy. To place Oswald in the SN.
As a result, the difference of opinion is not the sufficiency of the evidence to place Oswald in the SN as you stupidly suggest. It is not a "lie" to conclude that the evidence places him in the SN. It was either left by Oswald during the commission of the crime or by a fantasy conspirator to frame him for that crime. Now assume the fetal position and try to think like an adult for once since I realize this is going beyond the short attention span of the younger generation. If you were planning to frame someone for the assassination of the president and spent months or years doing so, what would be arguably the most important factor to control? Here is a hint. In a conspiracy scenario, no plan to frame Oswald would allow the patsy to freely move about the building and be in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the moment of the assassination. They wouldn't leave that to chance. The location of the "patsy" at the moment the crime was committed to ensure that he doesn't have an alibi is critical to that plan! Good grief. No one can seriously suggest that in a conspiracy scenario that involves framing Oswald that he would be allowed to sit in the 2nd floor lunchroom or move about the building of his own free will including doing the most likely thing in that circumstance like going outside to watch the motorcade with his coworkers. It is so absurd as to be laughable. Try to see the forest for once instead of just the trees. The evidence places Oswald in the SN. If it was planted to frame Oswald, the conspirators would have ensured that he was not roaming about the building. His movements would be controlled either with or without his cooperation. He is not sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and therefore, all your pedantic nonsense on this topic (most of which is a projection of your own subjective opinions onto imprecise testimony and witness recollection to reach a desired outcome) is superfluous.
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Exactly right what is not seen but should be seen is important.
Yeah Jack, that's what I'm saying.
If Adams and Styles don't immediately race down the steps then they should still be at the window. But they're not. They're nowhere to be seen.
The reason for this is because, as Adams states in various different ways, within a few short seconds after the last shot is taken both she and Styles are running towards the back stairs.
I know you think she's lying, but the Dillard pic shows otherwise.
What is known is Adams and styles were behind Dorman. If you can’t see Dorman, you definitely would not be able to see Adams and Styles.
:D :D
This is a piece of logic Dick would be proud of.
And your fixation with Harold Norman is really odd.
You don’t know if they are there or not.
:D :D :D
They are definitely not there Jack.
What a bizarre thing to say!
One last time - in the last crop of the Dillard pic I posted there is a woman (either Yola Hopson or Ruth Nelson) stood in the set of windows to the west of the open window Adams and Styles were looking out of before they raced downstairs (I won't bother posting the pic again). She is stood as close to the window as Adams would need to be to see down towards the underpass and we can see her from the knees upwards as the window sills are only a few inches off the floor.
But when we look at the open window Adams and Styles and Dorman are supposed to be at there is absolutely no sign of them.
How far back in the room would they need to be before we couldn't see them ?
It would have to be a few feet at least. Why would they be stood a few feet back from the window? How could they see down towards the underpass if they were stood a few feet back in the room?
The scenario you are presenting is completely nuts (mind you, you are a Nutter).
It's incomprehensible how you can stand by such a ridiculous assertion and still consider yourself serious.
Adams isn't there because she and Styles are already racing towards the back stairs. She decides to race downstairs immediately after the third shot and before the limo has reached the underpass. Less than five seconds later the Dillard pic is taken, proving Adams was true to her words.
Your denial of this evidence is disappointing.
You can stand back from the window and see the roadway. The window is only 14 inches off the ground.
I know it's possible to see the road if you stand back from the window. That's not what I was saying - you're starting to come across a bit like Tricky Dicky.
The point I was making was that she would need to be stood close to the window to see towards the underpass as it's off to her right.
You know that's the point I was making as well.
Once this sort of trickiness is required it's a sure sign you're not interested in evidence, reason or honest debate.
Here's a question I will be requiring an answer to - in your BS: scenario, how far back from the window are Adams and Styles stood?
From day 1 Shelley states he went across the street to the park area where he encountered Calvery. So based on your timeline it would be impossible for him to be at the elevator.
How so?
I too accept that after the first shot Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension and encountered Calvery.
Det Sawyer, Sgt Harkness, Patrolman Barnett, and Shelley and Lovelady provide time stamps that coincide with the movement of Adams and Styles.
Sawyer, Barnett and Harkness have absolutely nothing to do with providing timestamps for the movements of Adams and Styles.
Only Shelley and Lovelady do, and they were lying to cover their tracks.
But only hers and not anybody else's, they are being called liars.
In regard to the movements of Adams and Styles, the only people I'm calling liars are Shelley and Lovelady.
True. They said it was at 5 minutes post shot, not one minute later.
I'm not going to ask you to cite where Shelley and Lovelady state they were near the elevators "5 minutes post shot".
We both know they said nothing of the sort.
You think Adams is a liar - you don't believe her when she says she took off at a run after the last shot and before the limo reached the underpass. Even though the Dillard pic is photographic evidence perfectly confirming this account.
It is also the only way the Stroud document makes sense - for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither pair to see the other, can only happen if Adams and Styles race off immediately. It can happen no other way.
So ignore all this evidence like a good Nutter.
I think Shelley and Lovelady are liars but you think they're solid, but we've never really established which version of events you think they're telling the truth about.
Is it the version where Lovelady never leaves the steps and both men immediately re-enter the TSBD after the shooting and never go down to the railroad yard?
Or is it the version where they both race down to where the limo was and stay there for about 5 five minutes? - adding the time it would take to get there, get back to the TSBD and then to the elevators, it's difficult to understand how they could be seen by Adams 5 minutes after the shooting.
Or is it the version where they accompany some police officers to the railroad yard and stay there for ten minutes? - again, it's very difficult to imagine how they could be at the elevators within 5 five minutes, as you keep on insisting.
Or is it the version where they see Baker and Truly still stood outside the TSBD at least 3 minutes after the shooting, and they spend a few more minutes at the "little old island" then down at the railroad yard?
Or is it the version where Lovelady doesn't go back inside the TSBD building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting?
Which version is it Jack?
But they're not. They're nowhere to be seen
Once again that is correct. How do you know they are gone and not just out of sight in the room? No different than Norman and Dorman can not be seen in the photo. They should be seen in the windows and are not, but neither Dorman or Norman are heading down the steps to go outside.
They are definitely not there Jack.
What a bizarre thing to say!
No, if they are behind Dorman and Dorman cannot be seen, why would you think you would be able to see Adams and Styles or know if they have left or not?
absolutely no sign of them.
How far back in the room would they need to be before we couldn't see them ?
Ask Garner. Far enough to not be seen through the window to their left.
The point I was making was that she would need to be stood close to the window to see towards the underpass as it's off to her right.
You know that's the point I was making as well.
No they would not to just look out the window.
Here's a question I will be requiring an answer to - in your BS: scenario, how far back from the window are Adams and Styles stood?
Far enough to not be visible. How far back was Norman and Dorman. Both are known to be there but are not seen in your photo. To imply Adams and Styles have definitely left the floor is just wishful thinking and cannot be known by looking at the photo.
Sawyer, Barnett and Harkness have absolutely nothing to do with providing timestamps for the movements of Adams and Styles.
Only Shelley and Lovelady do, and they were lying to cover their tracks.
The statements of Adams and Styles contain interactions with the police, so the timestamps of the police most certainly do matter.
Shelley and Lovelady state they went out to see what was happening and then returned. At no time does that place them back at the elevator within a minute of the assassination. They do not return until an estimated 5 minutes later which makes all the movements of the various people mesh.
I'm not going to ask you to cite where Shelley and Lovelady state they were near the elevators "5 minutes post shot".
Not a problem -----FBI March 19—Lovelady
“William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately 5 minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”
It is also the only way the Stroud document makes sense - for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither pair to see the other, can only happen if Adams and Styles race off immediately. It can happen no other way.
So ignore all this evidence like a good Nutter.
No, or Adams and Styles leave later and then their travels flange up with all the various statements.
I think Shelley and Lovelady are liars but you think they're solid, but we've never really established which version of events you think they're telling the truth about.
Which version is it Jack?
Their WC testimony and Affidavits,
Stick to the basics and do not get caught up in time altered memories.
-
While the Nutters run for the hills, I'd like to make a final point about the lies of Lovelady and Shelley.
Reading through the wildly varying statements provided by them there can be little doubt both men are lying about their movements in the aftermath of the immediate shooting. Just to put the last nail in that particular coffin, I came across this in Speer's website:
(George and Patricia Nash-penned article The Other Witnesses, published in the 10-12-64 issue of The New Leader) "Bill Shelley. Oswald's foreman. and others who worked in the building told us that Charles Givens was missing from the sixth floor work crew. Shelley said he was sent outside in an unsuccessful attempt to locate Givens. and there was talk of sending out an 'all-points bulletin' on the missing man... (On the timing of Baker's entry into the building) "Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered five or six minutes after the shooting."
This is the most brazen aspect of their lying - the insistence that Baker and Truly did not enter the TSBD building for 3 - 6 minutes after the shooting. It's unbelievable they got away with repeatedly telling this whopper, but it is the fact they were not questioned about this lie in their WC testimonies that really stands out. For part of the Commission's investigation, time trials were undertaken by Baker and Truly to establish how quickly they got up to the second floor lunchroom. The results of these time trials were well known to the Commission but when both Shelley and Lovelady openly stated that Baker and Truly were still outside the TSBD building at least 3 minutes after the shooting (in fact, Baker and Truly reached the lunchroom in less than half this time), the Commission never questioned them about this.
Instead, the Commission used the timings given by Shelley and Lovelady to undermine the testimony of Adams!!
This should be a major source of concern about the validity of their testimonies but the WC hearings are such a monumental travesty it hardly gets noticed.
It should be interesting to see how the Nutters try to negotiate this particular hurdle.
Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.
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You sound like a petulant child who is slowly learning that there is no Santa Claus and is throwing a tantrum. Very amusing. Try this. Here is what a mature adult would do if they actually believed they had evidence that suggests a conspiracy to kill JFK or creates doubt as to the historically accepted fact that Oswald did it. Take your argument/evidence to the NY Times or the DPD or FBI and explain that you have proven a conspiracy to assassinate JFK or at least created doubt or whatever you are calling this endless pedantic nonsense. Let us know what they say. I bet it's not that you have "crushed" the official conclusion. Or are they all still "in" on the plot? LOL.
How is it a "lie" that the evidence places Oswald in the SN? Perhaps you have a different interpretation of that evidence, but it is not a "lie" to characterize that evidence as placing him there. Every official investigation has come to that conclusion based on the evidence. None have accepted your silly theory. It is immature to get that emotional when someone disagrees with your pedantic nonsense. Even the most outlandish CTer must acknowledge that the evidence suggests Oswald was in the SN. Why? Because even in a conspiracy to frame Oswald, the evidence would have been planted to frame Oswald for the crime by placing him in the SN! That would be the entire purpose of planting the evidence in a conspiracy. To place Oswald in the SN.
As a result, the difference of opinion is not the sufficiency of the evidence to place Oswald in the SN as you stupidly suggest. It is not a "lie" to conclude that the evidence places him in the SN. It was either left by Oswald during the commission of the crime or by a fantasy conspirator to frame him for that crime. Now assume the fetal position and try to think like an adult for once since I realize this is going beyond the short attention span of the younger generation. If you were planning to frame someone for the assassination of the president and spent months or years doing so, what would be arguably the most important factor to control? Here is a hint. In a conspiracy scenario, no plan to frame Oswald would allow the patsy to freely move about the building and be in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the moment of the assassination. They wouldn't leave that to chance. The location of the "patsy" at the moment the crime was committed to ensure that he doesn't have an alibi is critical to that plan! Good grief. No one can seriously suggest that in a conspiracy scenario that involves framing Oswald that he would be allowed to sit in the 2nd floor lunchroom or move about the building of his own free will including doing the most likely thing in that circumstance like going outside to watch the motorcade with his coworkers. It is so absurd as to be laughable. Try to see the forest for once instead of just the trees. The evidence places Oswald in the SN. If it was planted to frame Oswald, the conspirators would have ensured that he was not roaming about the building. His movements would be controlled either with or without his cooperation. He is not sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and therefore, all your pedantic nonsense on this topic (most of which is a projection of your own subjective opinions onto imprecise testimony and witness recollection to reach a desired outcome) is superfluous.
You sound like a petulant child who is slowly learning that there is no Santa Claus and is throwing a tantrum. Very amusing. Try this. Here is what a mature adult would do if they actually believed they had evidence that suggests a conspiracy to kill JFK or creates doubt as to the historically accepted fact that Oswald did it. Take your argument/evidence to the NY Times or the DPD or FBI and explain that you have proven a conspiracy to assassinate JFK or at least created doubt or whatever you are calling this endless pedantic nonsense. Let us know what they say. I bet it's not that you have "crushed" the official conclusion. Or are they all still "in" on the plot? LOL.
And here we have one of the classic ways in which "Richard Smith" responds when he gets stuck and can not provide a conclusive or persuasive answer to a simple question.
Dan never claimed to "have proven a conspiracy to assassinate JFK". He merely exposed discrepancies in the statements made by Shelley and Lovelady. The usual "take it to the press or the authorities" is completely idiotic.
Btw, there is no "historically accepted fact that Oswald did it". The only historically accepted fact there really is that there has always been a majority of people who doubt or simply do not believe the official narrative!
How is it a "lie" that the evidence places Oswald in the SN? Perhaps you have a different interpretation of that evidence, but it is not a "lie" to characterize that evidence as placing him there. Every official investigation has come to that conclusion based on the evidence. None have accepted your silly theory. It is immature to get that emotional when someone disagrees with your pedantic nonsense. Even the most outlandish CTer must acknowledge that the evidence suggests Oswald was in the SN. Why? Because even in a conspiracy to frame Oswald, the evidence would have been planted to frame Oswald for the crime by placing him in the SN! That would be the entire purpose of planting the evidence in a conspiracy. To place Oswald in the SN.
So much BS... It's a lie that "the evidence places Oswald in the SN", because no such evidence exists. Not even the presence of a rifle that allegedly belonged to Oswald is actual evidence that Oswald himself was in the SN when the shots were fired. No flawed appeal to authority will change that fact!
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Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.
Really? And how did Styles manage to re-enter the TSBD through the front door before the building was sealed of at around 12:36?
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Really? And how did Styles manage to re-enter the TSBD through the front door before the building was sealed of at around 12:36?
I thought you weren't going to discuss this with me anymore, not a man of your word?
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I thought you weren't going to discuss this with me anymore, not a man of your word?
Asking you for clarification of a bogus claim is not the same as a discussion.
So, no answer.? ... How unsurprisingly predictable!
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Here is Bob Clark recalling events albeit about 30 years later: "Our car was just making the turn underneath the window where Oswald was firing...so in our car the shots were very loud and very clear and more important historically equally loud and clear. So we all felt that after the first one...the first one was just a loud noise that may have been a firecracker or something but with the next two shots we all knew they were shots and we all knew they came from very close to us from above..."
Go here to the 25:00 minute mark: https://www.c-span.org/video/?72668-1/events-surrounding-jfk-assassination
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.V7hc1az9lisKn7Gu9H6VTwHaEK?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain)
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You sound like a petulant child who is slowly learning that there is no Santa Claus and is throwing a tantrum. Very amusing. Try this. Here is what a mature adult would do if they actually believed they had evidence that suggests a conspiracy to kill JFK or creates doubt as to the historically accepted fact that Oswald did it. Take your argument/evidence to the NY Times or the DPD or FBI and explain that you have proven a conspiracy to assassinate JFK or at least created doubt or whatever you are calling this endless pedantic nonsense. Let us know what they say. I bet it's not that you have "crushed" the official conclusion. Or are they all still "in" on the plot? LOL.
How is it a "lie" that the evidence places Oswald in the SN? Perhaps you have a different interpretation of that evidence, but it is not a "lie" to characterize that evidence as placing him there. Every official investigation has come to that conclusion based on the evidence. None have accepted your silly theory. It is immature to get that emotional when someone disagrees with your pedantic nonsense. Even the most outlandish CTer must acknowledge that the evidence suggests Oswald was in the SN. Why? Because even in a conspiracy to frame Oswald, the evidence would have been planted to frame Oswald for the crime by placing him in the SN! That would be the entire purpose of planting the evidence in a conspiracy. To place Oswald in the SN.
As a result, the difference of opinion is not the sufficiency of the evidence to place Oswald in the SN as you stupidly suggest. It is not a "lie" to conclude that the evidence places him in the SN. It was either left by Oswald during the commission of the crime or by a fantasy conspirator to frame him for that crime. Now assume the fetal position and try to think like an adult for once since I realize this is going beyond the short attention span of the younger generation. If you were planning to frame someone for the assassination of the president and spent months or years doing so, what would be arguably the most important factor to control? Here is a hint. In a conspiracy scenario, no plan to frame Oswald would allow the patsy to freely move about the building and be in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the moment of the assassination. They wouldn't leave that to chance. The location of the "patsy" at the moment the crime was committed to ensure that he doesn't have an alibi is critical to that plan! Good grief. No one can seriously suggest that in a conspiracy scenario that involves framing Oswald that he would be allowed to sit in the 2nd floor lunchroom or move about the building of his own free will including doing the most likely thing in that circumstance like going outside to watch the motorcade with his coworkers. It is so absurd as to be laughable. Try to see the forest for once instead of just the trees. The evidence places Oswald in the SN. If it was planted to frame Oswald, the conspirators would have ensured that he was not roaming about the building. His movements would be controlled either with or without his cooperation. He is not sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and therefore, all your pedantic nonsense on this topic (most of which is a projection of your own subjective opinions onto imprecise testimony and witness recollection to reach a desired outcome) is superfluous.
You sound like a petulant child who is slowly learning that there is no Santa Claus and is throwing a tantrum. Very amusing.
And you sound like a devious moron, constantly peddling an easily disprovable lie, who doesn't have the backbone to own up when he's caught out.
Not particularly amusing.
Here is what a mature adult would do if they actually believed they had evidence that suggests a conspiracy to kill JFK or creates doubt as to the historically accepted fact that Oswald did it. Take your argument/evidence to the NY Times or the DPD or FBI
What a moronic thing to say.
Just to clarify, the posts I've made are in respect to the subject of this thread - the "lost interview" with Vicki Adams. In it she confirms the information she gave in her WC testimony - that she raced down the stairs immediately after the first shot, that she hit the first floor within 60 seconds of the last shot and that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor, near the elevators when she got there.
This is important information as it reveals that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
I am asking the questions - why would they race towards the back of the first floor immediately after the shooting and why would they lie about their movements?
At no point have I mentioned Oswald, or whether or not he took the shots. That is not the subject of this thread.
Yet here you come, wading in like some rabid fanatic frothing at the mouth crying about Oswald's guilt.
You're an embarrassment.
How is it a "lie" that the evidence places Oswald in the SN?
And here we go again with you're deviousness.
A really unsavoury trait of some Nutters.
The lie you're constantly peddling is that the evidence places Oswald in the SN at the time of the shooting.
In fact, why don't we have your actual words:
"The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) "richard smith"
PS: If you actually do come across some evidence placing Oswald in the SN at the time of the shooting I advise you to contact the NY Times ;)
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Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.
"Why does this even matter?"??!! ???
Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?
Firstly, Baker entering the TSBD building is not on film. This shows such a poor grasp of the most basic evidence it's hard to know what to say. But it does explain some of the lame, unsupported horsesh%t you've been offering up in your recent posts.
Baker is filmed approaching the TSBD steps within seconds of the assassination. Pauline Saunders mentions a white-helmeted police officer reaching the steps within seconds of the shooting. When the time trials involving Baker and Truly are run, both men are inside the TSBD within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Yet Shelley and Lovelady lie to the Commission, they have Baker and Truly still outside at least 3 minutes after the shooting. The Commission knows that this is absolutely incorrect yet they don't bother to question this lie. And it's not some kind of 'misremembrance'. We know this because both Shelley and Lovelady tell exactly the same lie.
Not only that, Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash, increasing the time Baker and Truly enter the TSBD building from 3 minutes to "five or six minutes".
That you don't see anything weird or questionable about this reveals a poor grasp of reality, let alone the evidence.
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"Why does this even matter?"??!! ???
Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?
Firstly, Baker entering the TSBD building is not on film. This shows such a poor grasp of the most basic evidence it's hard to know what to say. But it does explain some of the lame, unsupported horsesh%t you've been offering up in your recent posts.
Baker is filmed approaching the TSBD steps within seconds of the assassination. Pauline Saunders mentions a white-helmeted police officer reaching the steps within seconds of the shooting. When the time trials involving Baker and Truly are run, both men are inside the TSBD approximately within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Yet Shelley and Lovelady lie to the Commission, they have Baker and Truly still outside at least 3 minutes after the shooting. The Commission knows that this is absolutely incorrect yet they don't bother to question this lie. And it's not some kind of 'misremembrance'. We know this because both Shelley and Lovelady tell exactly the same lie.
Not only that, Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash, increasing the time Baker and Truly enter the TSBD building from 3 minutes to "five or six minutes".
That you don't see anything weird or questionable about this reveals a poor grasp of reality, let alone the evidence.
Baker is filmed approaching the TSBD steps within seconds of the assassination.
So then yes it does not matter. Baker is shown approaching the building and running up the steps but you question whether he entered the building? OK, yeah that makes sense, and within seconds too?
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Asking you for clarification of a bogus claim is not the same as a discussion.
So, no answer.? ... How unsurprisingly predictable!
I am supposed to clarify your bogus claim. It would make more sense if you clarified your own bogus claim.
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Baker is filmed approaching the TSBD steps within seconds of the assassination.
So then yes it does not matter. Baker is shown approaching the building and running up the steps but you question whether he entered the building? OK, yeah that makes sense, and within seconds too?
"...it does not matter."!!?? ???
It doesn't matter that both Shelley and Lovelady lied about how long it took Truly and Baker to enter the TSBD building??
It doesn't matter that the Commission didn't bother to question this obvious lie??
You're really starting to make a fool of yourself Jack.
Just think things through before you say anything else.
You're better than this.
And just to clarify your unbelievably poor grasp of even the most basic evidence - Baker is not filmed "running up the steps".
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I am supposed to clarify your bogus claim. It would make more sense if you clarified your own bogus claim.
No, you are supposed to clarify your bogus claim. But it's obvious that you can't, because if you could you would have done it by now.
We know for a fact that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car, just before re-entering the TSBD through the front door before the building was sealed off, at around 12:36.
You claimed that "Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes". When you make such a statement you should at least be able to explain how Styles and Adams could have been at the front of the TSBD within 6 minutes after the shooting. You can either explain that or you are full of s**t. Now, which is it?
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You sound like a petulant child who is slowly learning that there is no Santa Claus and is throwing a tantrum. Very amusing.
And you sound like a devious moron, constantly peddling an easily disprovable lie, who doesn't have the backbone to own up when he's caught out.
Not particularly amusing.
Here is what a mature adult would do if they actually believed they had evidence that suggests a conspiracy to kill JFK or creates doubt as to the historically accepted fact that Oswald did it. Take your argument/evidence to the NY Times or the DPD or FBI
What a moronic thing to say.
Just to clarify, the posts I've made are in respect to the subject of this thread - the "lost interview" with Vicki Adams. In it she confirms the information she gave in her WC testimony - that she raced down the stairs immediately after the first shot, that she hit the first floor within 60 seconds of the last shot and that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor, near the elevators when she got there.
This is important information as it reveals that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
I am asking the questions - why would they race towards the back of the first floor immediately after the shooting and why would they lie about their movements?
At no point have I mentioned Oswald, or whether or not he took the shots. That is not the subject of this thread.
Yet here you come, wading in like some rabid fanatic frothing at the mouth crying about Oswald's guilt.
You're an embarrassment.
How is it a "lie" that the evidence places Oswald in the SN?
And here we go again with you're deviousness.
A really unsavoury trait of some Nutters.
The lie you're constantly peddling is that the evidence places Oswald in the SN at the time of the shooting.
In fact, why don't we have your actual words:
"The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) "richard smith"
PS: If you actually do come across some evidence placing Oswald in the SN at the time of the shooting I advise you to contact the NY Times ;)
Are you ten years old? Let's cut to the chase. If you believe that your evidence casts doubt on the suspect in a homicide investigation, provide that evidence to the law enforcement authorities responsible for the investigation. Don't waste more of our time here. Any reasonable person would do so if they geniunely believed that they had such evidence. Let us know the results.
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Are you ten years old? Let's cut to the chase. If you believe that your evidence casts doubt on the suspect in a homicide investigation, provide that evidence to the law enforcement authorities responsible for the investigation. Don't waste more of our time here. Any reasonable person would do so if they geniunely believed that they had such evidence. Let us know the results.
Are you ten years old?
Are you a devious lying moron?
If you believe that your evidence casts doubt on the suspect in a homicide investigation, provide that evidence to the law enforcement authorities responsible for the investigation.
You're clearly very old and a bit slow so I'll explain one last time - this thread is about a lost interview with Vicki Adams. Do you understand that? Do you understand what this thread is about? Do you understand what I mean when I say "thread"?
My posts have been about the topic of this thread, about what Vicki says in the lost interview. Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you need me to type slower?
The evidence provided by this interview indicates three things:
1) That Vicki stands by her WC testimony - she was on the first floor within 60 seconds of the last shot and she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor when she got there.
2) That Shelley and Lovelady raced towards the back of the TSBD seconds after the shooting.
3) That Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the shooting.
I cannot make it any simpler than this. If you don't understand this there's nothing more I can do.
There is nothing about a "suspect in a homicide investigation". Do you understand what I'm saying? There's nothing in my posts in this thread about Oswald and his guilt or innocence. Do you understand what I'm saying?
I know there's a lot to take in here so why don't you have a nap. Maybe you'll dream of some evidence that puts Oswald in the SN at the time of the shooting. Wouldn't that be lovely?
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No, you are supposed to clarify your bogus claim. But it's obvious that you can't, because if you could you would have done it by now.
We know for a fact that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car, just before re-entering the TSBD through the front door before the building was sealed off, at around 12:36.
You claimed that "Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes". When you make such a statement you should at least be able to explain how Styles and Adams could have been at the front of the TSBD within 6 minutes after the shooting. You can either explain that or you are full of s**t. Now, which is it?
So, you are not going to prove your claim. Instead, you want me to prove your claim for you. She was standing by Sawyers car is what?
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"...it does not matter."!!?? ???
It doesn't matter that both Shelley and Lovelady lied about how long it took Truly and Baker to enter the TSBD building??
It doesn't matter that the Commission didn't bother to question this obvious lie??
You're really starting to make a fool of yourself Jack.
Just think things through before you say anything else.
You're better than this.
And just to clarify your unbelievably poor grasp of even the most basic evidence - Baker is not filmed "running up the steps".
It doesn’t matter. Baker is entering the TSBD as he stated and is proven by the film. What matters in this discussion was being at the elevator to be seen by Adams and Styles either immediately as you claim or later as to their statements.
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So, you are not going to prove your claim. Instead, you want me to prove your claim for you. She was standing by Sawyers car is what?
If you can answer my question, just do so, instead of desperately trying to start a discussion.
If you can't provide evidence for your claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots, your claim is just as bogus as you are.
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Are you ten years old?
Are you a devious lying moron?
If you believe that your evidence casts doubt on the suspect in a homicide investigation, provide that evidence to the law enforcement authorities responsible for the investigation.
You're clearly very old and a bit slow so I'll explain one last time - this thread is about a lost interview with Vicki Adams. Do you understand that? Do you understand what this thread is about? Do you understand what I mean when I say "thread"?
My posts have been about the topic of this thread, about what Vicki says in the lost interview. Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you need me to type slower?
The evidence provided by this interview indicates three things:
1) That Vicki stands by her WC testimony - she was on the first floor within 60 seconds of the last shot and she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor when she got there.
2) That Shelley and Lovelady raced towards the back of the TSBD seconds after the shooting.
3) That Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the shooting.
I cannot make it any simpler than this. If you don't understand this there's nothing more I can do.
There is nothing about a "suspect in a homicide investigation". Do you understand what I'm saying? There's nothing in my posts in this thread about Oswald and his guilt or innocence. Do you understand what I'm saying?
I know there's a lot to take in here so why don't you have a nap. Maybe you'll dream of some evidence that puts Oswald in the SN at the time of the shooting. Wouldn't that be lovely?
So hostile and emotional like a spoiled child. There is nothing in your endless posts on this topic that relate to a "homicide investigation" or Oswald's guilt? LOL. What is the whole point of this endless pedantic exercise then? You are just spending countless words to analyze the movements of people 6o years ago because you find them fascinating? HA HA HA. I can understand why you are running away now but you have been suggesting that Oswald - the prime suspect in a homicide - could not have made his way down the stairs unnoticed after the crime. And thus there is doubt that he is the assassin in a "homicide." My question to you is simple and does not require another childish tantrum. If you believe your own nonsense and think it has validity in shedding light on a homicide, why don't you take this "evidence" to the authorities and make your case? Why repeat it endlessly here? What do you hope to happen? This is not a trick question. That is what any normal person would do if they had relevant information on a homicide. Let us know what the DPD and FBI make of your arguments. That seems perfectly reasonable unless you have a dim awareness that your own claims are baseless under scrutiny outside of the Internet.
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So hostile and emotional like a spoiled child. There is nothing in your endless posts on this topic that relate to a "homicide investigation" or Oswald's guilt? LOL. What is the whole point of this endless pedantic exercise then? You are just spending countless words to analyze the movements of people 6o years ago because you find them fascinating? HA HA HA. I can understand why you are running away now but you have been suggesting that Oswald - the prime suspect in a homicide - could not have made his way down the stairs unnoticed after the crime. And thus there is doubt that he is the assassin in a "homicide." My question to you is simple and does not require another childish tantrum. If you believe your own nonsense and think it has validity in shedding light on a homicide, why don't you take this "evidence" to the authorities and make your case? Why repeat it endlessly here? What do you hope to happen? This is not a trick question. That is what any normal person would do if they had relevant information on a homicide. Let us know what the DPD and FBI make of your arguments. That seems perfectly reasonable unless you have a dim awareness that your own claims are baseless under scrutiny outside of the Internet.
I can understand why you are running away now but you have been suggesting that Oswald - the prime suspect in a homicide - could not have made his way down the stairs unnoticed after the crime.
:D :D :D
Running away from you?? :D :D :D
That's like running away from a marshmallow.
And in which post on this thread have I been suggesting that Oswald could not have made his way down the stairs unnoticed?
Or is this another of your moronic lies?[of course it is]
And just for the record, this lost interview with Vicki Adams is evidence I was unfamiliar with and it's completely changed my opinion of this aspect of the case.
It demonstrates that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination - they lied to the FBI and the Warren Commission under oath.
Of course, this means nothing to you because you're a zealot.
A rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth, fantasist.
In your fantasy it's just another day at the TSBD building, everybody innocently going about their daily tasks unaware that a psychotic loner was in their midst.
But if this was really the case, why would Shelley and Lovelady lie to the FBI and the Warren Commission about their movements after the assassination?
Why did they try to cover up that they had raced to the back of the first floor of immediately after the shooting?
Try to answer these questions without lying or being a moron.
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It doesn’t matter. Baker is entering the TSBD as he stated and is proven by the film. What matters in this discussion was being at the elevator to be seen by Adams and Styles either immediately as you claim or later as to their statements.
Your last few posts show you've clearly lost it Jack.
Your whole fantasy about Adams waiting for five minutes before racing downstairs is based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, so of course it matters that they were lying.
I'm finding you a bit boring and irrelevant at the moment so I probably won't be bothering with any more of your banality.
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Your last few posts show you've clearly lost it Jack.
Your whole fantasy about Adams waiting for five minutes before racing downstairs is based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, so of course it matters that they were lying.
I'm finding you a bit boring and irrelevant at the moment so I probably won't be bothering with any more of your banality.
No, Adams and Styles not leaving immediately is based on the testimonies and timestamps provided by Sgt Harkness, Det Sawyer, Officer Barnett, Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, and Styles. The belief Adams and Styles left immediately is based solely on the testimony of Adams and Styles with nothing to support it.
Being bored would explain your overactive imagination.
Bye Dan, Sorry to always have to be the one to bring reality to the fantasy.
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If you can answer my question, just do so, instead of desperately trying to start a discussion.
If you can't provide evidence for your claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots, your claim is just as bogus as you are.
Weidman questions and never any answers.
No need to worry if I need fantasy or made-up witnesses, or make-believe evidence I will ask Dan. I am really going to miss you, so much valuable info, but I will manage.
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No, Adams and Styles not leaving immediately is based on the testimonies and timestamps provided by Sgt Harkness, Det Sawyer, Officer Barnett, Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, and Styles. The belief Adams and Styles left immediately is based solely on the testimony of Adams and Styles with nothing to support it.
Being bored would explain your overactive imagination.
Bye Dan, Sorry to always have to be the one to bring reality to the fantasy.
:D :D :D
I can't let this one go...
In the same short post you write that belief Adams and Styles did not leave immediately is based on the testimony of Adams and Styles and in the next sentence write that the belief Adams and Styles did leave immediately is based solely on the testimony of Adams and Styles!!!
???
Is this you bringing the reality to the fantasy :D :D :D
You are clearly unaware of the utter nonsense you are posting.
And while we're on the subject of fantasy - Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett have absolutely nothing to do with determining how quickly Adams and Styles took off. That is just more of your crazy BS:
Please keep bringing the reality, it's really funny Thumb1:
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While the Nutters choke on their own BS:, let's do a thought experiment.
How fast could Adams and Styles have feasibly made it down to the first floor?
And remember Nutters, this is only a thought experiment.
Vicki stated - "I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.'
So let's take her at her word. Before the limo has reached the underpass she has decided to race downstairs.
Assumption #1 Let's say that she begins her run from the fourth floor window as the limo reaches the underpass.
Assumption #2 Let's say the headshot is the last shot.
Assumption #3 Vicki runs all the way.
Using Mark Tyler's Motorcade mapping, Vicki's run begins about 8 seconds after the headshot. The Dillard pic is taken about eleven seconds after the headshot.
This means Vicki started her run 3 seconds before the Dillard pic so it is not surprising to find she is nowhere to be seen in it. Conversely, the Dillard pic demonstrates that Vicki had indeed already began her run.
There are two main sections to Vicki's run:
1) From the window to the top of the stairs.
2) Down 3 flights of stairs
I'll deal with the stairs first.
The video below is a timed recreation of Oswald's supposed scurry from the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom. This means he has to descend four flights of stairs, whereas Vicki descends only three. I will note the time it takes 'Oswald' to reach the second floor, divide this time by four to get the time taken to descend each floor, then time this by three to get an approximate time for how long it took Vicki to descend 3 flights of stairs.
The time trial begins around 6:48 in the video. There is a timer for the trial itself.
In the time trial, 'Oswald' reaches the top of the 6th floor stairs at around 27 seconds.
'Oswald' reaches the second floor at around 46 seconds.
So, in this time trial it took 'Oswald' approximately 19 seconds to descend four flights of stairs.
For ease of arithmetic let's say it took him 20 seconds, that's 5 seconds per floor, which would make it 15 seconds for Vicki to get down the stairs and remember, in the time trial 'Oswald' isn't really running, unlike Vicki, so this estimation of 15 seconds might actually be a little over.
So, how long does it take for Vicki to get from the window to the top of the stairs?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor and the most probable route taken by Adams and Styles.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr492KQn/TSBD4floor-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Using the scale provided in the diagram it is possible to determine that this distance Adams ran is just under 110 feet, but let's call it 110.
Assuming a very modest running speed of 6mph, this distance can be covered in 12.5 seconds.
So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators. This is the only way the Stroud document can be correct.
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Weidman questions and never any answers.
No need to worry if I need fantasy or made-up witnesses, or make-believe evidence I will ask Dan. I am really going to miss you, so much valuable info, but I will manage.
So, you can't provide evidence for your bogus claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes. Got it!
Thanks for the confirmation that the whole thing is indeed a made up fantasy on your part. Thumb1:
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:D :D :D
I can't let this one go...
In the same short post you write that belief Adams and Styles did not leave immediately is based on the testimony of Adams and Styles and in the next sentence write that the belief Adams and Styles did leave immediately is based solely on the testimony of Adams and Styles!!!
???
Is this you bringing the reality to the fantasy :D :D :D
You are clearly unaware of the utter nonsense you are posting.
And while we're on the subject of fantasy - Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett have absolutely nothing to do with determining how quickly Adams and Styles took off. That is just more of your crazy BS:
Please keep bringing the reality, it's really funny Thumb1:
Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett have absolutely nothing to do with determining how quickly Adams and Styles took off.
Although this is absolutely true, it is still noteworthy that Sawyer arrived at the TSBD and parked his car near the front entrance between 12:34 and 12:36.
Styles was photograped standing next to Sawyer's car just before she re-entered the building, which at that time had not yet been sealed off.
This places Styles near the front door some 5 minutes after the shots were fired.
What Nessan can't explain is how she could have possibly been there so quickly if, as he falsely claims, she and Adams waited on the 4th floor for several minutes.
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Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett have absolutely nothing to do with determining how quickly Adams and Styles took off.
Although this is absolutely true, it is still noteworthy that Sawyer arrived at the TSBD and parked his car near the front entrance between 12:34 and 12:36.
Styles was photograped standing next to Sawyer's car just before she re-entered the building, which at that time had not yet been sealed off.
This places Styles near the front door some 5 minutes after the shots were fired.
What Nessan can't explain is how she could have possibly been there so quickly if, as he falsely claims, she and Adams waited on the 4th floor for several minutes.
Jack's timings for Adams and Styles are based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady. He's trying to drag Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett into it to make it look like he's got a valid argument but a quick look at his last few posts reveals he is completely out of his depth.
Like a true Nutter, he will resort to any kind of tactic to make it look like he's got a valid point.
The Stroud document can only work if Adams and Styles leave within seconds of the last shot. It's the only way they can get down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up without either pair seeing the other. The Dillard pic shows that Adams and Styles have already left the window within eleven seconds of the shooting which confirms Vicki's constant assertions that she left within seconds of the last shot.
Jack has to ignore all this evidence, drag witnesses into it who can't substantiate anything about when the girls took off, and rely on the testimony of proven liars.
He's almost as bad as Tricky Dicky.
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Jack's timings for Adams and Styles are based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady. He's trying to drag Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett into it to make it look like he's got a valid argument but a quick look at his last few posts reveals he is completely out of his depth.
Like a true Nutter, he will resort to any kind of tactic to make it look like he's got a valid point.
The Stroud document can only work if Adams and Styles leave within seconds of the last shot. It's the only way they can get down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up without either pair seeing the other. The Dillard pic shows that Adams and Styles have already left the window within eleven seconds of the shooting which confirms Vicki's constant assertions that she left within seconds of the last shot.
Jack has to ignore all this evidence, drag witnesses into it who can't substantiate anything about when the girls took off, and rely on the testimony of proven liars.
He's almost as bad as Tricky Dicky.
Agreed.
It is common for the LN's to start playing games and create diversions when they are asked questions they don't like and can't answer. For them it's all about the superficial "Oswald did it" regardless of what the evidence actually shows.
In this instance it is obvious from all the available evidence that Styles and Adams did in fact leave the 4th floor within seconds after the last shot, but a LN will never accept or admit that because the consequence is that Oswald (or anybody else for that matter) could not have come down the stairs within 75 seconds, without being seen, after the last shot.
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:D :D :D
I can't let this one go...
In the same short post you write that belief Adams and Styles did not leave immediately is based on the testimony of Adams and Styles and in the next sentence write that the belief Adams and Styles did leave immediately is based solely on the testimony of Adams and Styles!!!
???
Is this you bringing the reality to the fantasy :D :D :D
You are clearly unaware of the utter nonsense you are posting.
And while we're on the subject of fantasy - Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett have absolutely nothing to do with determining how quickly Adams and Styles took off. That is just more of your crazy BS:
Please keep bringing the reality, it's really funny Thumb1:
In the same short post you write that belief Adams and Styles did not leave immediately is based on the testimony of Adams and Styles and in the next sentence write that the belief Adams and Styles did leave immediately is based solely on the testimony of Adams and Styles!!!
That is correct. I would not be so quick to show that you did not understand it. It is not a good look. Their collective statements provided the information that they left later than immediately.
You know you can't be missed if you are not gone.
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While the Nutters choke on their own BS:, let's do a thought experiment.
How fast could Adams and Styles have feasibly made it down to the first floor?
And remember Nutters, this is only a thought experiment.
Vicki stated - "I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.'
So let's take her at her word. Before the limo has reached the underpass she has decided to race downstairs.
Assumption #1 Let's say that she begins her run from the fourth floor window as the limo reaches the underpass.
Assumption #2 Let's say the headshot is the last shot.
Assumption #3 Vicki runs all the way.
Using Mark Tyler's Motorcade mapping, Vicki's run begins about 8 seconds after the headshot. The Dillard pic is taken about eleven seconds after the headshot.
This means Vicki started her run 3 seconds before the Dillard pic so it is not surprising to find she is nowhere to be seen in it. Conversely, the Dillard pic demonstrates that Vicki had indeed already began her run.
There are two main sections to Vicki's run:
1) From the window to the top of the stairs.
2) Down 3 flights of stairs
I'll deal with the stairs first.
The video below is a timed recreation of Oswald's supposed scurry from the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom. This means he has to descend four flights of stairs, whereas Vicki descends only three. I will note the time it takes 'Oswald' to reach the second floor, divide this time by four to get the time taken to descend each floor, then time this by three to get an approximate time for how long it took Vicki to descend 3 flights of stairs.
The time trial begins around 6:48 in the video. There is a timer for the trial itself.
In the time trial, 'Oswald' reaches the top of the 6th floor stairs at around 27 seconds.
'Oswald' reaches the second floor at around 46 seconds.
So, in this time trial it took 'Oswald' approximately 19 seconds to descend four flights of stairs.
For ease of arithmetic let's say it took him 20 seconds, that's 5 seconds per floor, which would make it 15 seconds for Vicki to get down the stairs and remember, in the time trial 'Oswald' isn't really running, unlike Vicki, so this estimation of 15 seconds might actually be a little over.
So, how long does it take for Vicki to get from the window to the top of the stairs?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor and the most probable route taken by Adams and Styles.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr492KQn/TSBD4floor-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Using the scale provided in the diagram it is possible to determine that this distance Adams ran is just under 110 feet, but let's call it 110.
Assuming a very modest running speed of 6mph, this distance can be covered in 12.5 seconds.
So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of between 30 - 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators. This is the only way the Stroud document can be correct.
Good god this actually gets worse by the minute.
Pictures with no point. Timelines that are questionable at best.
The biggest mistake I see is the timeline is not starting it with “once upon a time”.
What happened to the key ingredient of Shelley and Lovelady being at the elevator?
You know the Shelley the stated from day 1 that they first went to the park where they encountered Calvery. You are thinking then that they sprinted to the park to talk Calvery and then sprinted back to make this post 30 second shot meeting?
This is the only way the Stroud document can be correct.
That is right the only way. OK then, it is agreed the Stroud document is wrong
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So, you can't provide evidence for your bogus claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes. Got it!
Thanks for the confirmation that the whole thing is indeed a made up fantasy on your part. Thumb1:
I thought you weren’t going to talk to me again. I said goodbye and everything. You really aren’t a man of your word.
It has all been done. You have seen it all. You just don’t like it. Of course you are helpless to explain why it is wrong, it is just not the fantasy you envisioned.
I am Sorry Martin that you keep coming up short explaining your big claims. You made a big claim and then could not explain it, now running around like you have blinders on bouncing off the walls.
MW: “We know for a fact that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car, just before re-entering the TSBD through the front door before the building was sealed off, at around 12:36.”
JN: You made this big claim so I asked: “So you are not going to prove your claim. Instead, you want me to prove your claim for you. She was standing by Sawyers car is what?"
It doesn't really matter if you answer or not, it always some made up nonsense anyway. It just makes me laugh to hear it.
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Jack's timings for Adams and Styles are based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady. He's trying to drag Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett into it to make it look like he's got a valid argument but a quick look at his last few posts reveals he is completely out of his depth.
Like a true Nutter, he will resort to any kind of tactic to make it look like he's got a valid point.
The Stroud document can only work if Adams and Styles leave within seconds of the last shot. It's the only way they can get down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up without either pair seeing the other. The Dillard pic shows that Adams and Styles have already left the window within eleven seconds of the shooting which confirms Vicki's constant assertions that she left within seconds of the last shot.
Jack has to ignore all this evidence, drag witnesses into it who can't substantiate anything about when the girls took off, and rely on the testimony of proven liars.
He's almost as bad as Tricky Dicky.
What happened to the picture being an integral part of the understanding and Shelley and Lovelady being by the elevator proves it?
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Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett have absolutely nothing to do with determining how quickly Adams and Styles took off.
Although this is absolutely true, it is still noteworthy that Sawyer arrived at the TSBD and parked his car near the front entrance between 12:34 and 12:36.
Styles was photograped standing next to Sawyer's car just before she re-entered the building, which at that time had not yet been sealed off.
This places Styles near the front door some 5 minutes after the shots were fired.
What Nessan can't explain is how she could have possibly been there so quickly if, as he falsely claims, she and Adams waited on the 4th floor for several minutes.
Another Martin Weidmann timeline all completely made up. Where is the high heel running and all the anguish?
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Agreed.
It is common for the LN's to start playing games and create diversions when they are asked questions they don't like and can't answer. For them it's all about the superficial "Oswald did it" regardless of what the evidence actually shows.
In this instance it is obvious from all the available evidence that Styles and Adams did in fact leave the 4th floor within seconds after the last shot, but a LN will never accept or admit that because the consequence is that Oswald (or anybody else for that matter) could not have come down the stairs within 75 seconds, without being seen, after the last shot.
You just don't like the answers but they never change as compared to this ever altered timelines with newly added and newly discarded information. Mostly it looks like you try to add what i tell you but with some odd pervasion. Oswald was seen by Truly and Baker. How come Adams and Styles weren't seen on the steps?
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You just don't like the answers but they never change as compared to this ever altered timelines with newly added and newly discarded information. Mostly it looks like you try to add what i tell you but with some odd pervasion. Oswald was seen by Truly and Baker. How come Adams and Styles weren't seen on the steps?
I already told you that it's a waste of my time to discuss anything with you, as I can't lower myself to your total level of ignorance.
So, why are you desperately trying to start a discussing anyway?
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Let's carry on with the thought experiment and look at the timings of Baker and Truly to see how they match with the 35-36 seconds it takes Vicki and Sandra to reach the first floor.
One of the time trials Baker and Truly undertook had them reaching the second floor lunchroom in around 75 seconds after the last shot.
If we assume it takes them 10 seconds to run up a single flight of stairs to the second floor lunch room. This has them leaving the first floor around 65 seconds after the last shot. Let's say they're hanging around the elevators for 10 seconds, a long time when you're in a hurry. Actually let's call it 15 seconds. This would have them arriving at the elevators around 50 seconds after the first shot.
In this perfectly feasible scenario, Baker and Truly miss Adams and Styles by 10-15 seconds.
This is how it's possible for Adams and Styles to race down the stairs before Truly and Baker ascend the same stairs, and neither pair sees the other. This is the only way the Stroud document can work.
When Adams hits the first floor she sees Shelley and Lovelady off to her right as she races to the back door.
When Baker arrives in the same location seconds later he reports seeing two white men in the same general vicinity.
These two white men can only be Shelley and Lovelady. Their presence corroborated by two independent witnesses.
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Good god this actually gets worse by the minute.
Pictures with no point. Timelines that are questionable at best.
The biggest mistake I see is the timeline is not starting it with “once upon a time”.
What happened to the key ingredient of Shelley and Lovelady being at the elevator?
You know the Shelley the stated from day 1 that they first went to the park where they encountered Calvery. You are thinking then that they sprinted to the park to talk Calvery and then sprinted back to make this post 30 second shot meeting?
This is the only way the Stroud document can be correct.
That is right the only way. OK then, it is agreed the Stroud document is wrong
What a shock!!
No analysis or critique of the arguments presented, just the usual BS: nothingness. Boring and irrelevant.
What happened to the key ingredient of Shelley and Lovelady being at the elevator?
Read what I've posted for once.
I clearly state it's a thought experiment examining how quickly Adams could have made it downstairs after the last shot.
That's all it is.
It is still the case Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. That hasn't changed just because I'm examining how quickly Adams could have got downstairs. Her testimony hasn't changed just because I've focused on the specific aspect of how quickly she could've got down to the first floor. The corroboration of her WC testimony contained in the "lost interview" hasn't changed just because I've demonstrated she got down to the first floor in the time she actually testified she got down there, 30-60 seconds.
Do you understand that or do I need to draw you a diagram?
Timelines that are questionable at best
This is the only comment that comes close to a critique but, of course, you don't bother to mention which timelines and why they are questionable.
Provide a proper critique of the arguments I've put forward in the thought experiment. Show where you think it's wrong and why [I've already got the laughing emojis standing by].
That is right the only way. OK then, it is agreed the Stroud document is wrong
:D :D :D
Jack has spoken!!
The evidence he doesn't like is wrong :D :D :D
What a typical Nutter way to deal with key evidence.
The good news is you've had some kind of breakthrough - you now understand that the way I've presented my argument is the only way the Stroud document can work. Well done.
And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.
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Let's carry on with the thought experiment and look at the timings of Baker and Truly to see how they match with the 35-36 seconds it takes Vicki and Sandra to reach the first floor.
One of the time trials Baker and Truly undertook had them reaching the second floor lunchroom in around 75 seconds after the last shot.
If we assume it takes them 10 seconds to run up a single flight of stairs to the second floor lunch room. This has them leaving the first floor around 65 seconds after the last shot. Let's say they're hanging around the elevators for 10 seconds, a long time when you're in a hurry. Actually let's call it 15 seconds. This would have them arriving at the elevators around 50 seconds after the first shot.
In this perfectly feasible scenario, Baker and Truly miss Adams and Styles by 10-15 seconds.
This is how it's possible for Adams and Styles to race down the stairs before Truly and Baker ascend the same stairs, and neither pair sees the other. This is the only way the Stroud document can work.
When Adams hits the first floor she sees Shelley and Lovelady off to her right as she races to the back door.
When Baker arrives in the same location seconds later he reports seeing two white men in the same general vicinity.
These two white men can only be Shelley and Lovelady. Their presence corroborated by two independent witnesses.
I really don't understand why you keep talking to Nessan. You clearly suffer fools less gladly than me. He will never ever agree with anything you say and deny everything, making up bogus and false claims along the way.
Not only does he call Adams and Styles liars as well as Dorothy Garner, who confirmed to Barry Ernest what is written in the Stroud letter, but he actually wants us to believe that Victoria Adams started lying when she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63, that she and Styles ran to the stairs immediately after the shots, without knowing that Garner would corroborate her story several months later to Martha Stroud. And now, the dishonest fool goes one step further and denies that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the front entrance of the TSBD when the actual photograph has been shown on this forum before and Saywer testified that he arrived at the TSBD at around 12:34.
Nessan's insanity is beyond prevalent.
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I really don't understand why you keep talking to Nessan. You clearly suffer fools less gladly than me. He will never ever agree with anything you say and deny everything, making up bogus and false claims along the way.
Not only does he call Adams and Styles liars as well as Dorothy Garner, who confirmed to Barry Ernest what is written in the Stroud letter, but he actually wants us to believe that Victoria Adams started lying when she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63, that she and Styles ran to the stairs immediately after the shots, without knowing that Garner would corroborate her story several months later to Martha Stroud. And now, the dishonest fool goes one step further and denies that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the front entrance of the TSBD when the actual photograph has been shown on this forum before and Saywer testified that he arrived at the TSBD at around 12:34.
Nessan's insanity is beyond prevalent.
Clearly I'm not going to change Jack's mind on the matter, or any other Nutter's mind.
That's obvious enough.
But this "lost interview" with Vicki is new evidence to me and has totally undermined what I previously thought about this aspect of the case.
After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
It helps to have someone like Jack or Tricky to debate with because it really tests the arguments I'm putting forward. That they constantly disagree with me means nothing, what matters is that they have ended up looking like real fools because their attempts to counter the arguments I'm putting forward have failed so miserably.
It ends up with smith ranting like a lunatic and Jack posting some real nonsense.
That Vicki takes off before the limo reaches the underpass is confirmed by the Dillard pic. Less than five seconds before that picture was taken Vicki was up at the fourth floor window watching the limo speed off.
That she takes off so quickly, and moves so quickly, is the only way the Stroud document can work. Even Jack admits this, then decides this key evidence is wrong because it proves him wrong. What a shock.
Baker and Truly arrive seconds after Vicki has passed by, so it is no surprise that Baker reports seeing two white men in that general vicinity.
Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.
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What a shock!!
No analysis or critique of the arguments presented, just the usual BS: nothingness. Boring and irrelevant.
What happened to the key ingredient of Shelley and Lovelady being at the elevator?
Read what I've posted for once.
I clearly state it's a thought experiment examining how quickly Adams could have made it downstairs after the last shot.
That's all it is.
It is still the case Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. That hasn't changed just because I'm examining how quickly Adams could have got downstairs. Her testimony hasn't changed just because I've focused on the specific aspect of how quickly she could've got down to the first floor. The corroboration of her WC testimony contained in the "lost interview" hasn't changed just because I've demonstrated she got down to the first floor in the time she actually testified she got down there, 30-60 seconds.
Do you understand that or do I need to draw you a diagram?
Timelines that are questionable at best
This is the only comment that comes close to a critique but, of course, you don't bother to mention which timelines and why they are questionable.
Provide a proper critique of the arguments I've put forward in the thought experiment. Show where you think it's wrong and why [I've already got the laughing emojis standing by].
That is right the only way. OK then, it is agreed the Stroud document is wrong
:D :D :D
Jack has spoken!!
The evidence he doesn't like is wrong :D :D :D
What a typical Nutter way to deal with key evidence.
The good news is you've had some kind of breakthrough - you now understand that the way I've presented my argument is the only way the Stroud document can work. Well done.
And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.
And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.
The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure. It does not matter what happened before they got to the first floor only after they arrived and who then did they encounter. Their encounter with Shelley and Lovelady could not have even possibly have taken place as early as 1 minute after the shots. Shelley left the building and walked out to the park and stated so from day 1. You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them. Nobody cared if they were out just walking around.
I think Adams and Styles made the decision to leave after watching the scene below them and it then took them time to actually leave. They had a birds eye view of everything below and leaving gained them what? They were not even certain if they were shots.
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Clearly I'm not going to change Jack's mind on the matter, or any other Nutter's mind.
That's obvious enough.
But this "lost interview" with Vicki is new evidence to me and has totally undermined what I previously thought about this aspect of the case.
After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
It helps to have someone like Jack or Tricky to debate with because it really tests the arguments I'm putting forward. That they constantly disagree with me means nothing, what matters is that they have ended up looking like real fools because their attempts to counter the arguments I'm putting forward have failed so miserably.
It ends up with smith ranting like a lunatic and Jack posting some real nonsense.
That Vicki takes off before the limo reaches the underpass is confirmed by the Dillard pic. Less than five seconds before that picture was taken Vicki was up at the fourth floor window watching the limo speed off.
That she takes off so quickly, and moves so quickly, is the only way the Stroud document can work. Even Jack admits this, then decides this key evidence is wrong because it proves him wrong. What a shock.
Baker and Truly arrive seconds after Vicki has passed by, so it is no surprise that Baker reports seeing two white men in that general vicinity.
Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.
After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.
Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.
But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.
-
And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.
The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure. It does not matter what happened before they got to the first floor only after they arrived and who then did they encounter. Their encounter with Shelley and Lovelady could not have even possibly have taken place as early as 1 minute after the shots. Shelley left the building and walked out to the park and stated so from day 1. You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them. Nobody cared if they were out just walking around.
I think Adams and Styles made the decision to leave after watching the scene below them and it then took them time to actually leave. They had a birds eye view of everything below and leaving gained them what? They were not even certain if they were shots.
The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure.
I've asked you what key evidence convinces you Adams and Styles did not leave straight away and you come up with this vague, meaningless statement.
Adams is absolutely clear that, before the limo even reaches the underpass she turns to Styles and basically says "Let's go". Styles confirms this. So Adams and Styles are saying they started to race down the stairs within seconds of the last shot.
This is confirmed by Garner, the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.
What police statement undermines this?
How does any police statement undermine this?
In exactly what way?
You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them.
::)
Oh boy...you do say some very silly things.
So both men are cut short while they are giving their affidavits? Is that what you are trying to say?
Even though Shelley goes on to give another affidavit after the first one??
The person taking down the statements is so rushed off their feet they don't even bother to record what witnesses are telling them? Is that what you think happened?
Is this your truly pathetic explanation as to why neither man mentions going down the Elm Street extension after the shooting? Why they forget to mention they were hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on? Why it slipped their mind to mention they had re-entered the TSBD building through the west door?
Talk about a fantasist!
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After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.
Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.
But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.
But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.
But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.
Yeah Jack, this isn't how 'debate' works.
Making vague, irrelevant statements like "there is more to the story" doesn't actually mean anything.
I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
Let me help you out, then you can pretend you thought of this - the main problem with the argument I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
You keep touching on another issue without realising it's importance. We both agree that after the shooting Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and has some kind of encounter with Gloria, after which he makes his way back to the steps. If you watch the Darnell film you will see it takes Baker between 3 and 4 seconds to cross the extension, so Shelley could make it there and back in less than ten seconds which would give him plenty of time to race to the back of the first floor.
The issue isn't Shelley's movements, it's Gloria's movements.
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.
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But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.
But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.
Yeah Jack, this isn't how 'debate' works.
Making vague, irrelevant statements like "there is more to the story" doesn't actually mean anything.
I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
Let me help you out, then you can pretend you thought of this - the main problem with the argument I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
You keep touching on another issue without realising it's importance. We both agree that after the shooting Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and has some kind of encounter with Gloria, after which he makes his way back to the steps. If you watch the Darnell film you will see it takes Baker between 3 and 4 seconds to cross the extension, so Shelley could make it there and back in less than ten seconds which would give him plenty of time to race to the back of the first floor.
The issue isn't Shelley's movements, it's Gloria's movements.
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.
He will never be able to tell you what "more" there is to the story.
The best evidence that the WC narrative about Adams and Styles is bogus is the fact that after 48 pages of discussion on the subject not a single LN has been able to provide a conclusive timeline, backed up by actual evidence, for the events involving both ladies between 12:30 and 12:36.
The best evidence that the WC understood that Adams' testimony was a problem for the "Oswald being on the 6th floor and coming down the stairs" scenario is that they were not interested at all in investigating the matter. They excluded Adams from the reconstructions, they refused to take testimony from Styles and Rankin buried the Stroud letter.
The bottom line is that Truly and Baker saw Oswald on the 2nd floor some 90 seconds after the shots. He had to have come down the stairs in less than 90 seconds after the shots, for them to be able to claim that Oswald was indeed on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. Adams' testimony would have made that claim impossible to make, which is exactly why they needed to discredit Adams, just like they needed to discredit Wesley Buell Frazier in the matter about the paper bag. A normal criminal investigation looks at all the evidence for the purpose of elimination of suspects. This was not a normal investigation. Here "evidence" was cherry picked at the expense of the witnesses to keep a pre-determined conclusion alive.
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But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.
But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.
Yeah Jack, this isn't how 'debate' works.
Making vague, irrelevant statements like "there is more to the story" doesn't actually mean anything.
I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
Let me help you out, then you can pretend you thought of this - the main problem with the argument I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
You keep touching on another issue without realising it's importance. We both agree that after the shooting Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and has some kind of encounter with Gloria, after which he makes his way back to the steps. If you watch the Darnell film you will see it takes Baker between 3 and 4 seconds to cross the extension, so Shelley could make it there and back in less than ten seconds which would give him plenty of time to race to the back of the first floor.
The issue isn't Shelley's movements, it's Gloria's movements.
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.
I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
Huh? How about why would they?
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.
Who is Gloria and why are her movements important?
Seriously, why would anyone pay any attention to the movements of Shelley and Lovelady? The question that was trying to be answered was if the girls left as early as they stated how did they miss seeing everyone?
The Adams and Styles Story has two parts.
Part one is the girls run to the bottom of the steps. That is nothing more than their recollections and statements. They say it happened and you believe it and everyone else in the story are liars. Boy wasn't that easy.
Part two is the time stamps placed on their travels by Shelley and Lovelady, Sgt Harkness, Detective Sawyer, Officer Barnett and the girls themselves. All understanding it requires is reading and understanding what you are reading. It is much easier to deal with an unsupported storyline from the girls. How could they possibly be mistaken, right. Believing them takes no thought at all. But backtracking from known times stated by the police present at the time tells a different story on their departure. It is not that complicated.
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The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure.
I've asked you what key evidence convinces you Adams and Styles did not leave straight away and you come up with this vague, meaningless statement.
Adams is absolutely clear that, before the limo even reaches the underpass she turns to Styles and basically says "Let's go". Styles confirms this. So Adams and Styles are saying they started to race down the stairs within seconds of the last shot.
This is confirmed by Garner, the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.
What police statement undermines this?
How does any police statement undermine this?
In exactly what way?
You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them.
::)
Oh boy...you do say some very silly things.
So both men are cut short while they are giving their affidavits? Is that what you are trying to say?
Even though Shelley goes on to give another affidavit after the first one??
The person taking down the statements is so rushed off their feet they don't even bother to record what witnesses are telling them? Is that what you think happened?
Is this your truly pathetic explanation as to why neither man mentions going down the Elm Street extension after the shooting? Why they forget to mention they were hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on? Why it slipped their mind to mention they had re-entered the TSBD building through the west door?
Talk about a fantasist!
I've asked you what key evidence convinces you Adams and Styles did not leave straight away and you come up with this vague, meaningless statement.
You know what the police at the scene stated. You know how it relates to Adams and Styles travels. If you don’t want to believe what the police stated and then confirmed by Adams and Styles, then don’t, but do not pretend the statements do not exist.
How can you even begin to believe that Shelley and Lovelady would walk away from the TSBD and then turn around and sprint back, that is truly unbelievable and then post it like it really could have happened?
This is confirmed by Garner, the Dillard pic and the Stroud document
Point out the confirmation. Garner was at her desk and then joined them later, if anything it shows they left later than what you are portraying. The Dillard pic does not show anything but what you want to believe. The Stroud document is Garners recollection.
Why they forget to mention they were hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on? Why it slipped their mind to mention they had re-entered the TSBD building through the west door?
Did you not realize everyone’s WC statements are a great deal more detailed than the affidavits and why would that be? I will bet it was because people are asking for more detail based on the questions that arose from knowledge of the assassination. Only you seem to realize what was important at the time and what people should have known was important. Of all things, Adams was surprised the shots came from the building. Both Adams and Styles felt it was important to relate the cop in the back telling them to return to the front but you blow that off because it does not fit the immediate departure scenario you have been pushing.
You have made this mountain out of a mole hill based solely on what you want to portray and completely failed to consider the most obvious facts. Where is the HSCA investigation into this great mystery and what did they conclude about Adams and Styles travels?
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I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
Huh? How about why would they?
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.
Who is Gloria and why are her movements important?
Seriously, why would anyone pay any attention to the movements of Shelley and Lovelady? The question that was trying to be answered was if the girls left as early as they stated how did they miss seeing everyone?
The Adams and Styles Story has two parts.
Part one is the girls run to the bottom of the steps. That is nothing more than their recollections and statements. They say it happened and you believe it and everyone else in the story are liars. Boy wasn't that easy.
Part two is the time stamps placed on their travels by Shelley and Lovelady, Sgt Harkness, Detective Sawyer, Officer Barnett and the girls themselves. All understanding it requires is reading and understanding what you are reading. It is much easier to deal with an unsupported storyline from the girls. How could they possibly be mistaken, right. Believing them takes no thought at all. But backtracking from known times stated by the police present at the time tells a different story on their departure. It is not that complicated.
Huh? How about why would they?
Seriously, why would anyone pay any attention to the movements of Shelley and Lovelady?
Agreed Thumb1:
There was a lot of commotion at the time, there's no real reason why anyone would notice Shelley and Lovelady re-entering the building.
And even if they did, no-one was questioned about it.
I'm glad we can agree on that.
Who is Gloria and why are her movements important?
??? ??? ???
You have posted some real nonsense in this thread but this is a new low.
Who is Gloria Calvery??
Really??
This proves you have zero grasp of the most basic aspects of this case. It's really embarrassing.
Once again, let me help you out ::)
From Shelley's affidavit taken the day of the assassination:
"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery..."
From Lovelady's WC testimony:
Mr. LOVELADY: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. Ball: Who was this girl?
Mr. Lovelady: Gloria Calvary.
From Joe Molina's WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Molina: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
Gloria was stood on the north side of Elm street "about half way between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass" watching the motorcade with her friends and colleagues Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed.
She was stood a matter of feet away from the limo when the first shot rang out and she had a close-up unobstructed view of JFK when his head literally exploded. The traumatised Gloria immediately raced back to the TSBD building crying and hysterically telling everyone she met that the President had been shot.
Other than the three mentioned above, who knew Gloria by name, there are others who report a hysterical woman loudly telling people about the shooting.
WC testimony of Buell Frazier:
Mr. Ball: Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr. Ball: Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr. Frazier: Sir?
Mr. Ball: Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr. Frazier: She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.
This is surely a reference to Gloria, when she comes back to the steps and is telling people about the shooting of the President. Her voice is loud enough to be heard by most people on the steps, including Frazier on the top step. She is clearly distressed and her voice is "a low kind of hollering". For those people on the steps, most would have recognised that shots were fired as the President passed by and now there is a distressed young woman telling them the President had been shot. It might well have been their first knowledge of the assassination.
There are other reports of an 'hysterical' woman in the area near the front steps talking about the shooting of the President. It is clear she must have come from near where the shooting happened and made her way back to the TSBD building as those in this area had no idea the President had been shot.
From the WC testimony of Dallas police officer Joe Marshall Smith
Mr. Smith: Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. Liebeler: You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. Smith: I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Smith was working on the corner of Elm and Houston. Immediately after hearing shots he makes his way down the Elm Street extension and bumps into this 'hysterical' woman. Gloria would have run back up Elm Street to the 'spur' where she runs into Shellley and then across the Elm Street extension to the front steps of the TSBD building. Their paths would have crossed on the extension somewhere in front of the steps. I strongly suspect this 'hysterical' woman is Gloria because she is aware that the President has been shot. After this interaction Smith races up the extension towards the concrete pergola and the railroad yard.
If the woman is Gloria then it is possible to use the film record to establish how quickly Gloria got from her position on Elm Street back to the TSBD building steps.
Below is a still from footage taken by Jimmy Darnell which includes the moment Baker has left his bike and is about to cross the Elm Street extension. In the background, racing up the extension towards the railroad yard, is officer Smith:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N38fVjJ/Darnell-Baker1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
At this point, Smith has already had his interaction with Gloria and is heading up the extension. If it can be established how many seconds after the shooting this moment is, it can be established how quickly Gloria got back to the steps. This is important because by the time this still is taken, Gloria has already had her interaction with Shelley as stated in his affidavit.
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Huh? How about why would they?
Seriously, why would anyone pay any attention to the movements of Shelley and Lovelady?
Agreed Thumb1:
There was a lot of commotion at the time, there's no real reason why anyone would notice Shelley and Lovelady re-entering the building.
And even if they did, no-one was questioned about it.
I'm glad we can agree on that.
Who is Gloria and why are her movements important?
??? ??? ???
You have posted some real nonsense in this thread but this is a new low.
Who is Gloria Calvery??
Really??
This proves you have zero grasp of the most basic aspects of this case. It's really embarrassing.
Once again, let me help you out ::)
From Shelley's affidavit taken the day of the assassination:
"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery..."
From Lovelady's WC testimony:
Mr. LOVELADY: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. Ball: Who was this girl?
Mr. Lovelady: Gloria Calvary.
From Joe Molina's WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Molina: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
Gloria was stood on the north side of Elm street "about half way between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass" watching the motorcade with her friends and colleagues Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed.
She was stood a matter of feet away from the limo when the first shot rang out and she had a close-up unobstructed view of JFK when his head literally exploded. The traumatised Gloria immediately raced back to the TSBD building crying and hysterically telling everyone she met that the President had been shot.
Other than the three mentioned above, who knew Gloria by name, there are others who report a hysterical woman loudly telling people about the shooting.
WC testimony of Buell Frazier:
Mr. Ball: Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr. Ball: Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr. Frazier: Sir?
Mr. Ball: Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr. Frazier: She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.
This is surely a reference to Gloria, when she comes back to the steps and is telling people about the shooting of the President. Her voice is loud enough to be heard by most people on the steps, including Frazier on the top step. She is clearly distressed and her voice is "a low kind of hollering". For those people on the steps, most would have recognised that shots were fired as the President passed by and now there is a distressed young woman telling them the President had been shot. It might well have been their first knowledge of the assassination.
There are other reports of an 'hysterical' woman in the area near the front steps talking about the shooting of the President. It is clear she must have come from near where the shooting happened and made her way back to the TSBD building as those in this area had no idea the President had been shot.
From the WC testimony of Dallas police officer Joe Marshall Smith
Mr. Smith: Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. Liebeler: You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. Smith: I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Smith was working on the corner of Elm and Houston. Immediately after hearing shots he makes his way down the Elm Street extension and bumps into this 'hysterical' woman. Gloria would have run back up Elm Street to the 'spur' where she runs into Shellley and then across the Elm Street extension to the front steps of the TSBD building. Their paths would have crossed on the extension somewhere in front of the steps. I strongly suspect this 'hysterical' woman is Gloria because she is aware that the President has been shot. After this interaction Smith races up the extension towards the concrete pergola and the railroad yard.
If the woman is Gloria then it is possible to use the film record to establish how quickly Gloria got from her position on Elm Street back to the TSBD building steps.
Below is a still from footage taken by Jimmy Darnell which includes the moment Baker has left his bike and is about to cross the Elm Street extension. In the background, racing up the extension towards the railroad yard, is officer Smith:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N38fVjJ/Darnell-Baker1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
At this point, Smith has already had his interaction with Gloria and is heading up the extension. If it can be established how many seconds after the shooting this moment is, it can be established how quickly Gloria got back to the steps. This is important because by the time this still is taken, Gloria has already had her interaction with Shelley as stated in his affidavit.
Just because it is theoretically possible to have sprinted over and then back and maybe somehow make this timeline work because of an unrealistic sprint down the stairs by Adams and Styles does not make it a fact. The rest of their travels tell a different story. This Shelley and Lovelady running to stand by the elevator makes no sense at all.
-
I've asked you what key evidence convinces you Adams and Styles did not leave straight away and you come up with this vague, meaningless statement.
You know what the police at the scene stated. You know how it relates to Adams and Styles travels. If you don’t want to believe what the police stated and then confirmed by Adams and Styles, then don’t, but do not pretend the statements do not exist.
How can you even begin to believe that Shelley and Lovelady would walk away from the TSBD and then turn around and sprint back, that is truly unbelievable and then post it like it really could have happened?
This is confirmed by Garner, the Dillard pic and the Stroud document
Point out the confirmation. Garner was at her desk and then joined them later, if anything it shows they left later than what you are portraying. The Dillard pic does not show anything but what you want to believe. The Stroud document is Garners recollection.
Why they forget to mention they were hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on? Why it slipped their mind to mention they had re-entered the TSBD building through the west door?
Did you not realize everyone’s WC statements are a great deal more detailed than the affidavits and why would that be? I will bet it was because people are asking for more detail based on the questions that arose from knowledge of the assassination. Only you seem to realize what was important at the time and what people should have known was important. Of all things, Adams was surprised the shots came from the building. Both Adams and Styles felt it was important to relate the cop in the back telling them to return to the front but you blow that off because it does not fit the immediate departure scenario you have been pushing.
You have made this mountain out of a mole hill based solely on what you want to portray and completely failed to consider the most obvious facts. Where is the HSCA investigation into this great mystery and what did they conclude about Adams and Styles travels?
You know what the police at the scene stated. You know how it relates to Adams and Styles travels.
The thing is, Jack, I have you trapped now,
I've read your earlier posts on this matter and I've read through what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say.'
There is not a single comment by anyone that supports Adams waiting for five minutes before racing downstairs.
There is not a single comment that undermines what the physical, photographic and testimonial evidence is telling us - Adams set off downstairs within seconds of the last shot.
I've asked you to put forward the exact evidence that convinces you Adams waited for five minutes before coming downstairs.
I've asked you twice but all I get is vague comments about what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say .
But you never say exactly what it is that refutes the argument that Adams raced downstairs within seconds of the last shot.
So, I'm asking you a third time - what is this evidence and how does it refute the argument that Adams came down within seconds?
I know you can't answer this because I know that this evidence does not exist.
But like a good Nutter you won't be able to hold your hands up and say you're wrong.
Let's see how you try to squirm out of this one. You should do what Tricky Dicky did and just quietly disappear.
-
You know what the police at the scene stated. You know how it relates to Adams and Styles travels.
The thing is, Jack, I have you trapped now,
I've read your earlier posts on this matter and I've read through what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say.'
There is not a single comment by anyone that supports Adams waiting for five minutes before racing downstairs.
There is not a single comment that undermines what the physical, photographic and testimonial evidence is telling us - Adams set off downstairs within seconds of the last shot.
I've asked you to put forward the exact evidence that convinces you Adams waited for five minutes before coming downstairs.
I've asked you twice but all I get is vague comments about what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say .
But you never say exactly what it is that refutes the argument that Adams raced downstairs within seconds of the last shot.
So, I'm asking you a third time - what is this evidence and how does it refute the argument that Adams came down within seconds?
I know you can't answer this because I know that this evidence does not exist.
But like a good Nutter you won't be able to hold your hands up and say you're wrong.
Let's see how you try to squirm out of this one. You should do what Tricky Dicky did and just quietly disappear.
I've read your earlier posts on this matter and I've read through what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say.'
Read them again.
-
Just because it is theoretically possible to have sprinted over and then back and maybe somehow make this timeline work because of an unrealistic sprint down the stairs by Adams and Styles does not make it a fact. The rest of their travels tell a different story. This Shelley and Lovelady running to stand by the elevator makes no sense at all.
With the exception of the lies told by Shelley and Lovelady, all the available evidence points to Adams and Styles racing downstairs within seconds of the assassination. There is zero evidence disagreeing with this.
When she gets to the first floor, 35-45 seconds after the last shot, Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady. She reports this in her WC testimony and she reiterates in this "lost interview" [I'm assuming you've listened to the interview that is the subject of this thread].
She has no reason to lie. She could hardly be a more trustworthy character.
In my last few posts I am in the process of demonstrating that the sequence of events that are the consequences of Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor are feasible - Adams and Styles make it down to the first floor within 35-45 seconds. Shelley and Lovelady make it from their positions outside to the back of the first floor in this same time. Baker and Truly arrive at the same location at the same time.
[You seem to think Adams and Styles making it downstairs in 35-45 seconds is "unrealistic". As with everything else, you are wrong. It's perfectly realistic.]
Crying that it "makes no sense at all" is utterly meaningless. It happened.
Why did Shelley and Lovelady race towards the back of the first floor immediately after the last shot?
Why did they lie about their movements to the FBI and the Warren Commission?
-
I've read your earlier posts on this matter and I've read through what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say.'
Read them again.
No need.
There's nothing in them.
If you think there is let's hear it.
FOR THE FOURTH TIME OF ASKING, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE!
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With the exception of the lies told by Shelley and Lovelady, all the available evidence points to Adams and Styles racing downstairs within seconds of the assassination. There is zero evidence disagreeing with this.
When she gets to the first floor, 35-45 seconds after the last shot, Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady. She reports this in her WC testimony and she reiterates in this "lost interview" [I'm assuming you've listened to the interview that is the subject of this thread].
She has no reason to lie. She could hardly be a more trustworthy character.
In my last few posts I am in the process of demonstrating that the sequence of events that are the consequences of Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor are feasible - Adams and Styles make it down to the first floor within 35-45 seconds. Shelley and Lovelady make it from their positions outside to the back of the first floor in this same time. Baker and Truly arrive at the same location at the same time.
[You seem to think Adams and Styles making it downstairs in 35-45 seconds is "unrealistic". As with everything else, you are wrong. It's perfectly realistic.]
Crying that it "makes no sense at all" is utterly meaningless. It happened.
Why did Shelley and Lovelady race towards the back of the first floor immediately after the last shot?
Why did they lie about their movements to the FBI and the Warren Commission?
I fail to see how quoting the recanting’s of Adams and Styles somehow proved something. Their interactions with other witnesses do prove something. Unfortunately, it is not an early departure.
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No need.
There's nothing in them.
If you think there is let's hear it.
FOR THE FOURTH TIME OF ASKING, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE!
Pointing out the obvious would be pointless. You stated you have read them, it is impossible to not understand them, and you already have dismissed what they stated.
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Nessan presents us with another prime example of why it is pointless to discuss anything with him.
He ignores or dismisses actual evidence he doesn't like, makes up stuff and presents false claims and when asked to support them with actual evidence he rather unsurprisingly runs as fast as he can.
There is not a shred of evidence that shows Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes (as Nessan claims) but there is persuasive evidence (which Nessan ignores or dismisses) to support the conclusion that Adams and Styles must have left the 4th floor immediately after the last shot.
On 11/24/63, Victoria Adams told two FBI agents that she and Styles left the 4th floor immediately after the shots. She did so at a time when she could not know this would ever become an issue, nor was she aware that Dorothy Garner would corroborate her story to Martha Stroud. With hindsight it can be said that Adams & Styles' departure from the 4th floor didn't become an issue until February 1964 when Jim Leavelle showed up at Vickie's doorstep and told her he needed to interview her again, because all the previous interviews had been lost, which was a lie.
The exclusion of Adams from the reconstructions, the refusal of the WC to take testimony of Styles and Rankin burying the Stroud letter are further indications that the WC was not interested in what Vickie Adams had to say and although a transcript of here testimony has no been released it is worth noting that the actual audio recording of her testimony is the only recording of witness testimony that was never submitted to the National Archives because the WC had it destroyed.
So, you either accept that Adams told the truth about when she left the 4th floor, or you believe that Vickie Adams for some unknown reason decided to lie to the FBI, two days after the assassination.
I think reasonable and rational readers of this forum can guess which option Jack Nessan will prefer.
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Nessan presents us with another prime example of why it is pointless to discuss anything with him.
He ignores or dismisses actual evidence he doesn't like, makes up stuff and presents false claims and when asked to support them with actual evidence he rather unsurprisingly runs as fast as he can.
There is not a shred of evidence that shows Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes (as Nessan claims) but there is persuasive evidence (which Nessan ignores or dismisses) to support the conclusion that Adams and Styles must have left the 4th floor immediately after the last shot.
On 11/24/63, Victoria Adams told two FBI agents that she and Styles left the 4th floor immediately after the shots. She did so at a time when she could not know this would ever become an issue, nor was she aware that Dorothy Garner would corroborate her story to Martha Stroud. With hindsight it can be said that Adams & Styles' departure from the 4th floor didn't become an issue until February 1964 when Jim Leavelle showed up at Vickie's doorstep and told her he needed to interview her again, because all the previous interviews had been lost, which was a lie.
The exclusion of Adams from the reconstructions, the refusal of the WC to take testimony of Styles and Rankin burying the Stroud letter are further indications that the WC was not interested in what Vickie Adams had to say and although a transcript of here testimony has no been released it is worth noting that the actual audio recording of her testimony is the only recording of witness testimony that was never submitted to the National Archives because the WC had it destroyed.
So, you either accept that Adams told the truth about when she left the 4th floor, or you believe that Vickie Adams for some unknown reason decided to lie to the FBI, two days after the assassination.
I think reasonable and rational readers of this forum can guess which option Jack Nessan will prefer.
Poor old Jack has painted himself into a corner he can't get out of.
He made some big claims about evidence he thought he had but which he's just realised doesn't exist.
He can't provide this evidence and, being a Nutter, he can't own up to his mistake.
Other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady he has zero evidence refuting Adams racing down the stairs within seconds of the last shot.
As you've touched on, Adams makes it clear in multiple statements that she leaves immediately.
It is also interesting to note that the first mention of her seeing Shelley and Lovelady is made to the DPD in February of '64
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill.[Pat Speer website]
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Pointing out the obvious would be pointless. You stated you have read them, it is impossible to not understand them, and you already have dismissed what they stated.
Pointing out the obvious would be pointless
:D :D :D
Poor old Jack has realised he doesn't have the evidence he thought he had.
It must surely be the case that if you don't have a single piece of credible evidence to support a theory you must abandon that theory.
Fifth time Jack - show us the evidence!
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Poor old Jack has painted himself into a corner he can't get out of.
He made some big claims about evidence he thought he had but which he's just realised doesn't exist.
He can't provide this evidence and, being a Nutter, he can't own up to his mistake.
Other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady he has zero evidence refuting Adams racing down the stairs within seconds of the last shot.
As you've touched on, Adams makes it clear in multiple statements that she leaves immediately.
It is also interesting to note that the first mention of her seeing Shelley and Lovelady is made to the DPD in February of '64
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill.[Pat Speer website]
It is also interesting to note that the first mention of her seeing Shelley and Lovelady is made to the DPD in February of '64
Indeed. By then they understood that what Adams told investigators was a major problem for the "Oswald came down the stairs" fairytale. So, Jim Leavelle showed up at Vickie's door, unannounced and early in the evening, and told her that he needed to take her statement again, because her previous statements had been lost, which we now know was a lie. Now, let's stop right there and think about this for a minute. Normally, if you want a witness to make a statement, you just ask them to come down to the police station, right? So, what was so important or different here that Leavelle visited Adams unannounced and early in the evening? Even more pathetic, the interview wasn't even recorded verbatim, nor was it a affidavit. All we ended up with is a report written by Leavelle that turned out to be very convenient for the Warren Commission. You can even wonder why Leavelle interviewed Adams at all, when the WC and FBI had already taken over the investigation.
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Pointing out the obvious would be pointless
:D :D :D
Poor old Jack has realised he doesn't have the evidence he thought he had.
It must surely be the case that if you don't have a single piece of credible evidence to support a theory you must abandon that theory.
Fifth time Jack - show us the evidence!
Dan;“I've read your earlier posts on this matter and I've read through what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say.'”
Read them again.
Dan;“No need.
There's nothing in them.
If you think there is let's hear it.
FOR THE FOURTH TIME OF ASKING, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE!”
No thanks, you stated you have read them, they are obvious why the girls did not leave early. They shut down this whole storyline. The photo that shows nothing and the whole Shelley-Lovelady saga. I am satisfied there is nothing to this.
After reading what you have posted and what you believe I really don’t think you want this to end.
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Dan;“I've read your earlier posts on this matter and I've read through what Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett have to say.'”
Read them again.
Dan;“No need.
There's nothing in them.
If you think there is let's hear it.
FOR THE FOURTH TIME OF ASKING, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE!”
No thanks, you stated you have read them, they are obvious why the girls did not leave early. They shut down this whole storyline. The photo that shows nothing and the whole Shelley-Lovelady saga. I am satisfied there is nothing to this.
After reading what you have posted and what you believe I really don’t think you want this to end.
:D :D :D
Sixth time Jack - present the evidence that refutes Adams leaving within seconds of the assassination.
This is your best evidence that makes you believe Adams stayed on the fourth floor for a few minutes before racing downstairs.
Just present the evidence Jack.
It's as if you don't want this to end.
I'm asking you over and over and over again to present this evidence that you claim you have.
What is the evidence Jack?
You are starting to look really foolish.
Just cut and paste this evidence from other posts or give a brief summary of who said what, just a sentence or two.
;D
It's as if you are trapped. You don't have the evidence you claim to have but you don't have the backbone to own up to it.
You either own up or silently disappear. Showing the evidence isn't an option as it doesn't exist.
What's it going to be Jack?
I'm quite excited to see how this ends!
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:D :D :D
Sixth time Jack - present the evidence that refutes Adams leaving within seconds of the assassination.
This is your best evidence that makes you believe Adams stayed on the fourth floor for a few minutes before racing downstairs.
Just present the evidence Jack.
It's as if you don't want this to end.
I'm asking you over and over and over again to present this evidence that you claim you have.
What is the evidence Jack?
You are starting to look really foolish.
Just cut and paste this evidence from other posts or give a brief summary of who said what, just a sentence or two.
;D
It's as if you are trapped. You don't have the evidence you claim to have but you don't have the backbone to own up to it.
You either own up or silently disappear. Showing the evidence isn't an option as it doesn't exist.
What's it going to be Jack?
I'm quite excited to see how this ends!
I guess we are done. They have been posted and you also said you read the statements of Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett and they hold no value for you. Are you not telling the truth about having read the statements?
Why waste the time? They are just time stamps that refute Adams and Styles. After viewing what you perceive to be evidence you would think something tangible and real would be of interest. I guess not.
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I guess we are done. They have been posted and you also said you read the statements of Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett and they hold no value for you. Are you not telling the truth about having read the statements?
Why waste the time? They are just time stamps that refute Adams and Styles. After viewing what you perceive to be evidence you would think something tangible and real would be of interest. I guess not.
Nessan is running away, as fast as he can..... Hiliarious and exactly as expected.
There is nothing in the statements of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett that supports his pathetic false claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes.
And Nessan knows it! If there was anything in those statements he could use to his benefit, Nessan would have pointed it out. The fact that he is refusing to do so is the best confirmation of the fact that he's full of hot air!
There is no way to have a rational conversation with this clown.
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I guess we are done. They have been posted and you also said you read the statements of Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett and they hold no value for you. Are you not telling the truth about having read the statements?
Why waste the time? They are just time stamps that refute Adams and Styles. After viewing what you perceive to be evidence you would think something tangible and real would be of interest. I guess not.
"I guess we are done."
You were "done" about 25 posts ago when I asked this question:
"And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?"
A seemingly straightforward question to answer.
You were arguing so hard that Adams and Styles waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor, it was as if you had compelling evidence to convince you this was the case.
And I simply asked for you to produce your best evidence for this.
To be honest, though, it was a trap.
I knew, for a fact, that you didn't have any such evidence and that your silly belief was based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.
I also knew you had one of two choices to make - either do a 'Tricky Dicky' and silently disappear or try to bluff your way through.
You never had the option of producing the evidence to support your argument because this evidence doesn't exist.
It's been quite funny watching you stumbling along, trying to make it look like you knew what you were talking about. It didn't help your case that you thought the Darnell footage actually showed Baker racing up the steps and entering the building or that you didn't know who Gloria Calvery was. It really showed up how ignorant you are regarding the basics of this case. It was really funny when you tried to introduce Adams and Styles as witnesses who supported the argument against their own timeline!! :D
Six times you've been asked to produce this evidence and each time you've made yourself look very foolish indeed.
But now we come to the final destination of the true Nutter...out-and-out lying.
It's a pity, because this is no longer amusing.
"They are just time stamps that refute Adams and Styles."
And here we have the lie.
Doubtless this is a lie you will wheel out again and again, just like Tricky and his BS:
The good thing is that the forum is a written record of these lies and it can always be held against you.
Just to be clear, Jack's Lie isn't that Vicki waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor.
This is a Warren Commission Lie and, like a good little Nutter, Jack just regurgitates what the WC tells him to regurgitate.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question.
But this is not Jack's Lie.
Jack's Lie is that the testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett refutes the timeline of Adams - that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot.
Jack has been asked over and over and over again to provide this evidence, which he has failed to do. He has failed to do this because this evidence does not exist. And Jack knows it doesn't exist. Yet he still makes the claim that Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett provide "time stamps that refute Adams and Styles."
This is a deliberate falsehood....a lie.
Because Jack is a good little Nutter he swallows down the Commission's lies without question and will defend these lies to the point where he himself is lying.
He believes it takes Adams five minutes to get downstairs because that is what the WC tells him to believe.
Martin pointed out to him that if it was indeed the case that Adams took five minutes to leave, she would not have been able to make it back inside the front door by the time the front entrance was locked down.
Jack used the testimonies of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett to argue that Adams could still have made it back inside the building before the front entrance was locked down. The testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett relates solely to when the front entrance was locked down. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Adams left the fourth floor within seconds of the shooting. This testimonial evidence cannot be used to refute this aspect of Adams' testimony.
Yet Jack will carry on telling this Lie because he is a good little Nutter.
I would advise him to do a 'Tricky Dicky' and quietly disappear.
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Why is the world being deprived of all these valuable insights on the JFK assassination? Surely those who have posted on this thread endlessly to the tune of tens of thousands of words on the topic have the confidence to share their "evidence" with the DPD. Right? They are not just caught up in some type of compulsion disorder that they can exercise under cover of the Internet. Right? I anxiously await the DPD's assessment of this evidence.
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There are clear ramifications to Vicki witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor within seconds of the assassination and, in between dealing with Jack's nonsense, I've been exploring these ramifications; using physical, film, photographic and testimonial evidence to test whether or not the version of events that are a consequence of Vicki's testimony, are actually feasible.
I've demonstrated that she could have been down on the first floor around 35 seconds after the headshot and that she could've been out the back door before Truly and Baker arrived on the scene.
I also started looking into a whether or not it was feasible for Shelley and Lovelady to have made it to the location on the first floor that Vicki observed both men, somewhere between 35 and 45 seconds after the assassination. Part of the evidence I presented was the testimony of DPD officer Joe Marshall Smith who made his way down the Elm Street extension immediately after the shots were fired and bumped into an 'hysterical' woman who told him about the shots being fired at the President. I argued that this woman was Gloria Calvery, who crossed paths with Smith as she raced back to the TSBD building.
This would lead to the following set of events:
1] The headshot.
2] Gloria runs back up Elm Street towards the TSBD building.
3] She runs into Shelley at the concrete 'spur' where the traffic light is situated.
4] She carries on to the TSBD building and runs into officer Smith.
5] She tells Smith about the shooting and carries on to the front steps followed by Shelley
6] Smith runs along the extension to where Gloria says the shots were coming from
7] At the same time Gloria and Shelley arrive back at the front steps.
8] A distressed Gloria tells Lovelady and others stood on the steps about the shooting.
I posted the pic below as part of the evidence I was presenting and would like to examine the significance of this image.
It is a still from the Darnell footage which shows Baker after he has parked his bike and is making his way towards the TSBD building. In the background is officer Joe Marshall Smith who is running up the Elm Street extension:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N38fVjJ/Darnell-Baker1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Let's say this image is taken 20 seconds after the last shot.
In the list above, this image represents number 6] - Smith running along the extension to where Gloria said the shots were coming from.
It means that before this image was taken the headshot had occurred, Gloria had run back up Elm Street, she had run into Shelley at the 'spur' and had already told Smith about the shooting.
It also means that, if we could see the front steps at this moment, we would see Calvery at the steps telling Lovelady and the others about the shooting. We would see Shelley returning to the steps. We would see Frazier stood at the stop of the steps, overhearing the "hollering" of Gloria as she told everyone about the shooting.
Luckily, we can see the front steps as the footage rolls on. The still below is a close crop from Darnell taken about 4 seconds after the image above. In it we can see Baker, who has just passed Truly, and is about to reach the foot of the front steps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yNwCNr8/Darnellclose-Truly-Baker.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)photo link (https://postimages.org/)
Seconds after this image is taken Baker forces his way past people on the steps and enters the front lobby. Truly turns and follows Baker up the steps and into the lobby. Does this image show the moment Gloria tells Lovelady and others about the shooting? Does it show Shelley returning to the steps? Does it show Frazier listening on?
If we look halfway down on the west side of the steps we can see the backs of two women who are facing towards the front entrance. Both are wearing headscarves, one black and one white. The woman in the white headscarf is very distinctive as she is wearing a white dress as well. When we see the actual footage it is clear that they have their arms linked. The woman in white is making her way up the steps but she has to stop because the woman in the black headscarf appears to be talking to a male figure stood just in front of her. The male figure appears to be a step or two above Black Headscarf, and directly facing her. He appears to be white and bald.
If the timings I've discussed are correct, this must be the moment Gloria [Black Headscarf] tells Lovelady [Bald Man] and other people on the steps about the shooting. At the top of the steps, half covered in shadow, is the well attested to figure of Buell Frazier as he listens on to the distressed Gloria.
Bill Shelley was known to be wearing a loose-fitting, baggy black (or darkly coloured) suit. At the bottom of the steps we can see such a figure. In the actual footage we first see this man from behind as he takes a step or two towards the front entrance before he turns to face the direction Baker is approaching from. This must be Shelley as he reaches the steps after following Gloria back from the 'spur'.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Shelley and Lovelady must follow Baker into the front lobby. While he is trying to find out how to get up the building and having his interaction with Truly, Shelley and Lovelady make their way towards the back of the first floor where they are spotted by Adams. Seconds later Truly and Baker arrive. Adams and Styles have already left through the back door and Baker observes two white men (who can only be Shelley and Lovelady) at the back of the first floor.
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"I guess we are done."
You were "done" about 25 posts ago when I asked this question:
"And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?"
A seemingly straightforward question to answer.
You were arguing so hard that Adams and Styles waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor, it was as if you had compelling evidence to convince you this was the case.
And I simply asked for you to produce your best evidence for this.
To be honest, though, it was a trap.
I knew, for a fact, that you didn't have any such evidence and that your silly belief was based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.
I also knew you had one of two choices to make - either do a 'Tricky Dicky' and silently disappear or try to bluff your way through.
You never had the option of producing the evidence to support your argument because this evidence doesn't exist.
It's been quite funny watching you stumbling along, trying to make it look like you knew what you were talking about. It didn't help your case that you thought the Darnell footage actually showed Baker racing up the steps and entering the building or that you didn't know who Gloria Calvery was. It really showed up how ignorant you are regarding the basics of this case. It was really funny when you tried to introduce Adams and Styles as witnesses who supported the argument against their own timeline!! :D
Six times you've been asked to produce this evidence and each time you've made yourself look very foolish indeed.
But now we come to the final destination of the true Nutter...out-and-out lying.
It's a pity, because this is no longer amusing.
"They are just time stamps that refute Adams and Styles."
And here we have the lie.
Doubtless this is a lie you will wheel out again and again, just like Tricky and his BS:
The good thing is that the forum is a written record of these lies and it can always be held against you.
Just to be clear, Jack's Lie isn't that Vicki waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor.
This is a Warren Commission Lie and, like a good little Nutter, Jack just regurgitates what the WC tells him to regurgitate.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question.
But this is not Jack's Lie.
Jack's Lie is that the testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett refutes the timeline of Adams - that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot.
Jack has been asked over and over and over again to provide this evidence, which he has failed to do. He has failed to do this because this evidence does not exist. And Jack knows it doesn't exist. Yet he still makes the claim that Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett provide "time stamps that refute Adams and Styles."
This is a deliberate falsehood....a lie.
Because Jack is a good little Nutter he swallows down the Commission's lies without question and will defend these lies to the point where he himself is lying.
He believes it takes Adams five minutes to get downstairs because that is what the WC tells him to believe.
Martin pointed out to him that if it was indeed the case that Adams took five minutes to leave, she would not have been able to make it back inside the front door by the time the front entrance was locked down.
Jack used the testimonies of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett to argue that Adams could still have made it back inside the building before the front entrance was locked down. The testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett relates solely to when the front entrance was locked down. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Adams left the fourth floor within seconds of the shooting. This testimonial evidence cannot be used to refute this aspect of Adams' testimony.
Yet Jack will carry on telling this Lie because he is a good little Nutter.
I would advise him to do a 'Tricky Dicky' and quietly disappear.
You were "done" about 25 posts ago when I asked this question:
"And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting
Maybe you did not know this but your own personal Mini-me, Martin, had his own fantasy timeline complete with an imaginary cop and his personal made-up timelines. Apparently, you did not actually read the testimonies of Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett. Nor just look back a few pages to what your Mini-me was posting. If it makes sense to you that the girls waited somewhere in the building for 4 or 5 minutes instead of watching the goings on from the window before departing, then believe that.
It makes absolutely no difference to me. What is known is they did not encounter Shelley and Lovelady until about 12:35, encountered the Police officer in the back of the building until 12:36, and returned to the front and entered the building until 12:37. All based on time stamps. Nothing you have posted changes any of the known information. Not the unexplained mad dash of Shelley and Lovelady or the useless no evidence picture have cast any doubt.
Victoria Adams FBI 11/24
“They had not gone far until they were stopped by a police officer, who instructed them to return to the building.
Sandra Styles FBI 3/19
“We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area. I then re-entered the building....
This encounter with the police officer was known to take place at 12:36 based on the testimony of Sgt Harkness as to when the back was sealed off.
-------------------------------------
Martin, like you, thinks creating a once upon a time scenario somehow makes the whole made up storyline more believable. It is not an exercise, it is mindless ramblings trying to reinvent the story.
Martin Weidmann's Timeline
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
towards the railroad yard
Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
just left of the stairs
Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
The building is not yet sealed off.
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
(where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
officers or secret service.
Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.
Martin: “Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before it was sealed off. If it was sealed of at 12:37, it means that Styles entered the building prior to 12:37.”
It means Styles reentered the building after being told by the officer in the back to return to the front
Martin: “was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building through the front door before it was locked down. That must have happened between 12:35 and 12:37.”
Unbelievable, Martin just makes up his own crap and gives it his own priority.
---------------------------------------------------------
THEN:2020
Martin Weidmann Timeline----12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension, towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
It is known that the building was sealed off at 12:36, not 12:33. 12:33 is a fantasy time.
NOW: 2024
MW-- “BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building, she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.”
MW--"The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;”
MW--“When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.
HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building? Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.” Which Sgt Harkness stated took place at 12:36. The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?
Mr. HARKNESS - "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr. BELIN - All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr. BELIN - In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Asked for a squad.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Officer Barnett is more of the same look it up for yourself for once.
-
Why is the world being deprived of all these valuable insights on the JFK assassination? Surely those who have posted on this thread endlessly to the tune of tens of thousands of words on the topic have the confidence to share their "evidence" with the DPD. Right? They are not just caught up in some type of compulsion disorder that they can exercise under cover of the Internet. Right? I anxiously await the DPD's assessment of this evidence.
It's a pity you don't have the brains to assess the evidence yourself.
Your pathetic whining about those researching certain aspects of this case is as meaningless as your 'contribution' in general.
If you had the courage of your own convictions you'd genuinely participate in the debate - analyse and critique.
Instead it's just a cowardly whining from the side-lines and bare-faced lies.
You're an utter disgrace as a 'researcher' and it has been a pleasure making you look like a complete idiot every time you dare to venture onto any threads I'm participating in.
The cowardly way you disappeared from the debate earlier in this thread speaks volumes. Once again, crushed in front of the forum and back under your rock.
You have no contribution to make, so don't bother trying to make any.
-
It's a pity you don't have the brains to assess the evidence yourself.
Your pathetic whining about those researching certain aspects of this case is as meaningless as your 'contribution' in general.
If you had the courage of your own convictions you'd genuinely participate in the debate - analyse and critique.
Instead it's just a cowardly whining from the side-lines and bare-faced lies.
You're an utter disgrace as a 'researcher' and it has been a pleasure making you look like a complete idiot every time you dare to venture onto any threads I'm participating in.
The cowardly way you disappeared from the debate earlier in this thread speaks volumes. Once again, crushed in front of the forum and back under your rock.
You have no contribution to make, so don't bother trying to make any.
You are calling the what you have presented research and contribution? You can't even present an explanation of Styles and Adams beyond the elevator on floor one. Your whole thought about their travels ends there.
-
You were "done" about 25 posts ago when I asked this question:
"And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting
Maybe you did not know this but your own personal Mini-me, Martin, had his own fantasy timeline complete with an imaginary cop and his personal made-up timelines. Apparently, you did not actually read the testimonies of Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett. Nor just look back a few pages to what your Mini-me was posting. If it makes sense to you that the girls waited somewhere in the building for 4 or 5 minutes instead of watching the goings on from the window before departing, then believe that.
It makes absolutely no difference to me. What is known is they did not encounter Shelley and Lovelady until about 12:35, encountered the Police officer in the back of the building until 12:36, and returned to the front and entered the building until 12:37. All based on time stamps. Nothing you have posted changes any of the known information. Not the unexplained mad dash of Shelley and Lovelady or the useless no evidence picture have cast any doubt.
Victoria Adams FBI 11/24
“They had not gone far until they were stopped by a police officer, who instructed them to return to the building.
Sandra Styles FBI 3/19
“We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area. I then re-entered the building....
This encounter with the police officer was known to take place at 12:36 based on the testimony of Sgt Harkness as to when the back was sealed off.
-------------------------------------
Martin, like you, thinks creating a once upon a time scenario somehow makes the whole made up storyline more believable. It is not an exercise, it is mindless ramblings trying to reinvent the story.
Martin Weidmann's Timeline
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
towards the railroad yard
Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
just left of the stairs
Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
The building is not yet sealed off.
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
(where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
officers or secret service.
Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.
Martin: “Styles re-entered the TSBD at the front entrance before it was sealed off. If it was sealed of at 12:37, it means that Styles entered the building prior to 12:37.”
It means Styles reentered the building after being told by the officer in the back to return to the front
Martin: “was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building through the front door before it was locked down. That must have happened between 12:35 and 12:37.”
Unbelievable, Martin just makes up his own crap and gives it his own priority.
---------------------------------------------------------
THEN:2020
Martin Weidmann Timeline----12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension, towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
It is known that the building was sealed off at 12:36, not 12:33. 12:33 is a fantasy time.
NOW: 2024
MW-- “BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building, she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.”
MW--"The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;”
MW--“When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.
HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building? Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.” Which Sgt Harkness stated took place at 12:36. The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?
Mr. HARKNESS - "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr. BELIN - All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr. BELIN - In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Asked for a squad.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Officer Barnett is more of the same look it up for yourself for once.
You need to own up to your Lie, Jack.
You can't be taken seriously otherwise.
Your conversation with Martin has absolutely nothing to do with me, with the evidence I've presented or with the arguments I am making.
Introducing your discussion with Martin stinks of desperation.
There is not a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that refutes Adams racing down the stairs seconds after the assassination.
Not a single one.
I'm more familiar with this testimony than you will ever be and there is not a single statement made by any of them that has anything to do with how quickly Adams left the fourth floor.
That is why you have never provided such a statement. It's why you have to lie about it.
If it makes sense to you that the girls waited somewhere in the building for 4 or 5 minutes instead of watching the goings on from the window before departing, then believe that.
Are you having a bit of a senior moment Jack?
Have you forgotten it's you who is saying the girls were hanging around for 4 or 5 minutes, not me!
I'm saying they were out the back door in less than a minute.
Do you remember Jack?
Do you need a nap?
Victoria Adams FBI 11/24
“They had not gone far until they were stopped by a police officer, who instructed them to return to the building.
Sandra Styles FBI 3/19
“We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area. I then re-entered the building....
This encounter with the police officer was known to take place at 12:36 based on the testimony of Sgt Harkness as to when the back was sealed off.
This is the only thing you've written that comes even close to providing an argument.
When you say the encounter with this officer was known to have taken "place at 12:36 based on the testimony of Sgt Harkness", is this just another of your lies? Or is it just another senior moment? Or is it something you've just made up because it suits you?
As for Barnett, far from supporting your argument, he totally undermines it. After the shots have been fired he makes his way to the back of the building where he sees officers in the railroad yard and "officers down here watching this back door". Why you think there wasn't an officer at that location until 12:36pm is totally baffling. Mind you, a lot of what you think is totally baffling.
And as for your logic that this officer is something to do with the lock down of the building....I don't think "logic" is the right word to use. The point of the lock down is to stop people from entering or leaving the building. Yet here we have an officer who confronts Adams and Styles outside and tells them to get back inside the building!! It's the very opposite of what the lock down is about!
Only you know what you're thinking trying to make this officer part of the lock down. It's another senior moment as far as I'm concerned.
Other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady you do not have a single scrap of evidence that has Adams and Styles waiting for up to four minutes before racing down to the first floor.
Not a single scrap.
It's disappointing that you are so willing to lie about this.
-
You are calling the what you have presented research and contribution? You can't even present an explanation of Styles and Adams beyond the elevator on floor one. Your whole thought about their travels ends there.
Take a nap and then brush up on your English.
And at least I'm not presenting lies.
-
When a pathetic weasel like Nessan starts misrepresenting my words, you know you are dealing with a typical LN clown.
He assumes that Sgt Harkness was the officer that told Adams and Styles to go back into the building and that it happened at 12:36, when there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Harkness never said in any of his statements that he saw Adams and Styles and/or told them to go back into the building. Just how perfect would it have been for the WC to discredit Victoria Adams if Harkness could indeed confirm he saw both women leaving the building at 12:36? But he didn't say that! Instead he only says that he had the back of the building sealed off by 12:36, which means that if he encountered Adams and Styles at that time he would not have allowed them to go outside or let them go round the building to the front entrance.
What Nessan ignores is that, within two minutes after the shots, there were officers in the parking aera next to the TSBD searching cars. Adams and Styles would have encountered them as soon as they had passed by the loading dock and turned left to go the front of the building.
Secondly, the idiot, assumes that Adams and Styles could have walked three sides of the building and have Styles' photo taken near Sawyer's car in less than a minute, as the front of the building was sealed off at 12:37.
But there is more. Sawyer testified that he arrived in his car at the front door of the TSBD at around 12:34. The first thing he did was run up to the 4th floor and come back down again. According to Nessan, Adams and Styles must have left the 4th floor at no later than 12:35 in order to run into Harkness at the back of the building a minute later, at 12:36. This means the women must have been on the stairs when Sawyer and his men were there, either going up or coming down. That didn't happen! And that, of course, makes Nessan's imaginary story complete BS....
-
When a pathetic weasel like Nessan starts misrepresenting my words, you know you are dealing with a typical LN clown.
He assumes that it was Sgt Harkness was the officer that told Adams and Styles to go back into the building and that it happened at 12:36, when there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Harkness never said in any of his statements that he saw Adams and Styles and/or told them to go back into the building. He does say that he had the back of the building sealed off by 12:36, which means that if he encountered Adams and Styles at that time he not only would have told them to go back into the building but he also would not have let them go round the building to the front entrance.
What Nessan ignores is that, within two minutes after the shots, there were officers in the parking aera next to the TSBD searching cars. Adams and Styles would have encountered them as soon as they had passed the loading dock and turned left to go the front of the building.
Secondly, the idiot, assumes that Adams and Styles could have walked three sides of the building and have Styles' photo taken in less than a minute, as the front of the building as sealed off at 12:37.
But there is more. Sawyer testified that he arrived in his car at the front door of the TSBD at around 12:34. The first thing he did was run up to the 4th floor and come back down again. According to Nessan, Adams and Styles must have left the 4th floor at 12:35 in order to run into Harkness at the back of the building at 12:36. This means the women must have been on the stairs when Sawyer and his men were there. That didn't happen! And that, of course, makes Nessan's BS story exactly that....
He assumes that it was Sgt Harkness was the officer that told Adams and Styles to go back into the building and that it happened at 12:36
He assumes it was Harkness??
Seriously??
That can't be true.
How on earth could he justify such a notion?
Barnett returns to the front of the building after two and a half minutes. He reports seeing officers in the railroad yard and near the back door of the building.
It is clearly one of these officers Adams is referring to. If Barnett had gone round the back and there were no officers there, that would be a different matter, but as Adams reports, there is at least one officer there between approximately 60 and 90 seconds after the assassination. Perfectly in synch with what Barnett reports.
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You need to own up to your Lie, Jack.
You can't be taken seriously otherwise.
Your conversation with Martin has absolutely nothing to do with me, with the evidence I've presented or with the arguments I am making.
Introducing your discussion with Martin stinks of desperation.
There is not a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that refutes Adams racing down the stairs seconds after the assassination.
Not a single one.
I'm more familiar with this testimony than you will ever be and there is not a single statement made by any of them that has anything to do with how quickly Adams left the fourth floor.
That is why you have never provided such a statement. It's why you have to lie about it.
If it makes sense to you that the girls waited somewhere in the building for 4 or 5 minutes instead of watching the goings on from the window before departing, then believe that.
Are you having a bit of a senior moment Jack?
Have you forgotten it's you who is saying the girls were hanging around for 4 or 5 minutes, not me!
I'm saying they were out the back door in less than a minute.
Do you remember Jack?
Do you need a nap?
Victoria Adams FBI 11/24
“They had not gone far until they were stopped by a police officer, who instructed them to return to the building.
Sandra Styles FBI 3/19
“We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area. I then re-entered the building....
This encounter with the police officer was known to take place at 12:36 based on the testimony of Sgt Harkness as to when the back was sealed off.
This is the only thing you've written that comes even close to providing an argument.
When you say the encounter with this officer was known to have taken "place at 12:36 based on the testimony of Sgt Harkness", is this just another of your lies? Or is it just another senior moment? Or is it something you've just made up because it suits you?
As for Barnett, far from supporting your argument, he totally undermines it. After the shots have been fired he makes his way to the back of the building where he sees officers in the railroad yard and "officers down here watching this back door". Why you think there wasn't an officer at that location until 12:36pm is totally baffling. Mind you, a lot of what you think is totally baffling.
And as for your logic that this officer is something to do with the lock down of the building....I don't think "logic" is the right word to use. The point of the lock down is to stop people from entering or leaving the building. Yet here we have an officer who confronts Adams and Styles outside and tells them to get back inside the building!! It's the very opposite of what the lock down is about!
Only you know what you're thinking trying to make this officer part of the lock down. It's another senior moment as far as I'm concerned.
Other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady you do not have a single scrap of evidence that has Adams and Styles waiting for up to four minutes before racing down to the first floor.
Not a single scrap.
It's disappointing that you are so willing to lie about this.
Your conversation with Martin has absolutely nothing to do with me, with the evidence I've presented or with the arguments I am making.
Yes, it does. You asked for the key evidence. You don’t like it? You wanted to know what the officers stated and now you do. I don’t blame you for distancing yourself from Martins statements and timeline. Martin is doing everything in his power to distance himself from his own poorly thought-out timeline.
At some point in time, Martin even reasons if he just places an imaginary police officer in the story, to fill a need for an officer’s presence, it will make the whole proposed timeline work. It did not.
You are doing the exact same thing by claiming pictures are proof and then ignoring Adams and Styles’s own statements. The timestamps are the proof of what happened if you like it or not.
Introducing your discussion with Martin stinks of desperation.
You should not describe Martin’s timeline as “stinks”. It does but that is not the point being made. It needed to be shown because there was a real reluctance on your part to address the part of their travels that proved the first part was wrong. You do not want to address the entire travels of Adams and Styles and it is obvious why you do not. If your timeline is different than Martin’s man up and post it. You are talking a better game than you are playing.
What is interesting is you present a half-baked interpretation of the first part of Adams and Styles travels and Martin does the same with the second part. This is not as hard as you and Martin make it out to be.
Somehow you believe ignoring the second part of Adams and Styles travels will somehow make the first part about their “immediate” departure time from the 4th floor be more believable. It does not.
There is not a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that refutes Adams racing down the stairs seconds after the assassination.
Not a single one.
Wrong. The statements of those men refute the entire belief of an early departure. The time stamps of the officers make it possible to determine when they left the 4th floor. If it doesn’t then explain the time it takes them to get to the back of the building.
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Take a nap and then brush up on your English.
And at least I'm not presenting lies.
You have failed to present anything at all. What you have presented up to now is so far from reality it can only be classified as fantasy or fiction, and not even good fantasy or fiction. This whole storyline lacks cohesion and continuity from one thought to the next. Maybe talking about UFO conspiracies would be a better fit. You seem to struggle here.
And at least I'm not presenting lies.
That is true. For it to be a lie it would have to be a little bit cleverer than this. This is just pure unadulterated nonsense.
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There are clear ramifications to Vicki witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor within seconds of the assassination and, in between dealing with Jack's nonsense, I've been exploring these ramifications; using physical, film, photographic and testimonial evidence to test whether or not the version of events that are a consequence of Vicki's testimony, are actually feasible.
I've demonstrated that she could have been down on the first floor around 35 seconds after the headshot and that she could've been out the back door before Truly and Baker arrived on the scene.
I also started looking into a whether or not it was feasible for Shelley and Lovelady to have made it to the location on the first floor that Vicki observed both men, somewhere between 35 and 45 seconds after the assassination. Part of the evidence I presented was the testimony of DPD officer Joe Marshall Smith who made his way down the Elm Street extension immediately after the shots were fired and bumped into an 'hysterical' woman who told him about the shots being fired at the President. I argued that this woman was Gloria Calvery, who crossed paths with Smith as she raced back to the TSBD building.
This would lead to the following set of events:
1] The headshot.
2] Gloria runs back up Elm Street towards the TSBD building.
3] She runs into Shelley at the concrete 'spur' where the traffic light is situated.
4] She carries on to the TSBD building and runs into officer Smith.
5] She tells Smith about the shooting and carries on to the front steps followed by Shelley
6] Smith runs along the extension to where Gloria says the shots were coming from
7] At the same time Gloria and Shelley arrive back at the front steps.
8] A distressed Gloria tells Lovelady and others stood on the steps about the shooting.
I posted the pic below as part of the evidence I was presenting and would like to examine the significance of this image.
It is a still from the Darnell footage which shows Baker after he has parked his bike and is making his way towards the TSBD building. In the background is officer Joe Marshall Smith who is running up the Elm Street extension:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N38fVjJ/Darnell-Baker1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Let's say this image is taken 20 seconds after the last shot.
In the list above, this image represents number 6] - Smith running along the extension to where Gloria said the shots were coming from.
It means that before this image was taken the headshot had occurred, Gloria had run back up Elm Street, she had run into Shelley at the 'spur' and had already told Smith about the shooting.
It also means that, if we could see the front steps at this moment, we would see Calvery at the steps telling Lovelady and the others about the shooting. We would see Shelley returning to the steps. We would see Frazier stood at the stop of the steps, overhearing the "hollering" of Gloria as she told everyone about the shooting.
Luckily, we can see the front steps as the footage rolls on. The still below is a close crop from Darnell taken about 4 seconds after the image above. In it we can see Baker, who has just passed Truly, and is about to reach the foot of the front steps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yNwCNr8/Darnellclose-Truly-Baker.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)photo link (https://postimages.org/)
Seconds after this image is taken Baker forces his way past people on the steps and enters the front lobby. Truly turns and follows Baker up the steps and into the lobby. Does this image show the moment Gloria tells Lovelady and others about the shooting? Does it show Shelley returning to the steps? Does it show Frazier listening on?
If we look halfway down on the west side of the steps we can see the backs of two women who are facing towards the front entrance. Both are wearing headscarves, one black and one white. The woman in the white headscarf is very distinctive as she is wearing a white dress as well. When we see the actual footage it is clear that they have their arms linked. The woman in white is making her way up the steps but she has to stop because the woman in the black headscarf appears to be talking to a male figure stood just in front of her. The male figure appears to be a step or two above Black Headscarf, and directly facing her. He appears to be white and bald.
If the timings I've discussed are correct, this must be the moment Gloria [Black Headscarf] tells Lovelady [Bald Man] and other people on the steps about the shooting. At the top of the steps, half covered in shadow, is the well attested to figure of Buell Frazier as he listens on to the distressed Gloria.
Bill Shelley was known to be wearing a loose-fitting, baggy black (or darkly coloured) suit. At the bottom of the steps we can see such a figure. In the actual footage we first see this man from behind as he takes a step or two towards the front entrance before he turns to face the direction Baker is approaching from. This must be Shelley as he reaches the steps after following Gloria back from the 'spur'.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Shelley and Lovelady must follow Baker into the front lobby. While he is trying to find out how to get up the building and having his interaction with Truly, Shelley and Lovelady make their way towards the back of the first floor where they are spotted by Adams. Seconds later Truly and Baker arrive. Adams and Styles have already left through the back door and Baker observes two white men (who can only be Shelley and Lovelady) at the back of the first floor.
“Seconds after this image is taken Baker forces his way past people on the steps and enters the front lobby. Truly turns and follows Baker up the steps and into the lobby. Does this image show the moment Gloria tells Lovelady and others about the shooting? Does it show Shelley returning to the steps?”
Another picture. Another moment of disbelief. Do you see it? The fact that it does not fit your story.
If Baker then Truly pass Shelley and Lovelady on the steps, how do Shelley and Lovelady encounter the descending Adams and Styles by the first floor elevator before the girls can meet Baker and Truly ascending up the stairs? Shelley and Lovelady are now behind Truly and Baker in the mad dash.
Shelley and Lovelady must follow Baker into the front lobby.
Why? Because without this happening, it is beyond ridiculous that the people who you are surmising in the first place to be Shelley and Lovelady, would even do this.
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It's a pity you don't have the brains to assess the evidence yourself.
Your pathetic whining about those researching certain aspects of this case is as meaningless as your 'contribution' in general.
If you had the courage of your own convictions you'd genuinely participate in the debate - analyse and critique.
Instead it's just a cowardly whining from the side-lines and bare-faced lies.
You're an utter disgrace as a 'researcher' and it has been a pleasure making you look like a complete idiot every time you dare to venture onto any threads I'm participating in.
The cowardly way you disappeared from the debate earlier in this thread speaks volumes. Once again, crushed in front of the forum and back under your rock.
You have no contribution to make, so don't bother trying to make any.
Such hostility and rudeness. Do you have parents who can teach you any manners or is it too late by age 12? I've asked you a very simple question for which you have constantly responded with rants and rudeness that reflect insecurity. Why don't you present your arguments and evidence to the DPD if you believe they have validity and that you have "crushed" others who disagree with you? What do you expect to happen here with your endless insults toward those who disagree with your conclusions? Do you think that folks who disagree with your pedantic subjective interpretation of events based on imprecise witness recollections and testimony will be persuaded by your insults? And even if that were possible, what significance would it hold? If you have any friends, perhaps send them a copy of your post above and ask them for an honest assessment of your behavior.
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Such hostility and rudeness. Do you have parents who can teach you any manners or is it too late by age 12? I've asked you a very simple question for which you have constantly responded with rants and rudeness that reflect insecurity. Why don't you present your arguments and evidence to the DPD if you believe they have validity and that you have "crushed" others who disagree with you? What do you expect to happen here with your endless insults toward those who disagree with your conclusions? Do you think that folks who disagree with your pedantic subjective interpretation of events based on imprecise witness recollections and testimony will be persuaded by your insults? And even if that were possible, what significance would it hold? If you have any friends, perhaps send them a copy of your post above and ask them for an honest assessment of your behavior.
Such hostility and rudeness.
If there's anything inaccurate about what I 've posted please point it out and I will correct it.
Not for one second did it occur to me that your suggestion to contact the DPD was in anyway to be taken seriously.
I can't believe how badly I've underestimated how moronic you can be.
The "Lost Interview" is new evidence to me and all I'm doing is examining the ramifications of Vicki Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor seconds after the assassination.
That is all I'm doing.
For some bizarre reason you felt compelled to attack me for simply examining this aspect of the case, accusing me of posting gibberish and calling me a "loon".
It's none of your f%cking business what I choose to study regarding this case.
If you don't like the arguments I put forward then show a bit of backbone and put a counter argument forward, instead of your moronic rants and lies.
Now back under your rock.
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“Seconds after this image is taken Baker forces his way past people on the steps and enters the front lobby. Truly turns and follows Baker up the steps and into the lobby. Does this image show the moment Gloria tells Lovelady and others about the shooting? Does it show Shelley returning to the steps?”
Another picture. Another moment of disbelief. Do you see it? The fact that it does not fit your story.
If Baker then Truly pass Shelley and Lovelady on the steps, how do Shelley and Lovelady encounter the descending Adams and Styles by the first floor elevator before the girls can meet Baker and Truly ascending up the stairs? Shelley and Lovelady are now behind Truly and Baker in the mad dash.
Shelley and Lovelady must follow Baker into the front lobby.
Why? Because without this happening, it is beyond ridiculous that the people who you are surmising in the first place to be Shelley and Lovelady, would even do this.
??? ???
The things you are posting are getting more bizarre.
Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??
You accept everything else I've posted but this is somehow too much for you??
Adams is a witness to Shelley and Lovelady as she moves across the first floor.
This is something you also believe!
Don't you realise that??
It's just that you think it happened a few minutes later.
But now you're questioning whether Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady at all.
You will do anything or say anything to try and score a point but you constantly end up shooting yourself in the foot.
Do you now disagree that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?
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Such hostility and rudeness.
If there's anything inaccurate about what I 've posted please point it out and I will correct it.
Not for one second did it occur to me that your suggestion to contact the DPD was in anyway to be taken seriously.
I can't believe how badly I've underestimated how moronic you can be.
The "Lost Interview" is new evidence to me and all I'm doing is examining the ramifications of Vicki Adams witnessing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor seconds after the assassination.
That is all I'm doing.
For some bizarre reason you felt compelled to attack me for simply examining this aspect of the case, accusing me of posting gibberish and calling me a "loon".
It's none of your f%cking business what I choose to study regarding this case.
If you don't like the arguments I put forward then show a bit of backbone and put a counter argument forward, instead of your moronic rants and lies.
Now back under your rock.
Thumb1:
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??? ???
The things you are posting are getting more bizarre.
Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??
You accept everything else I've posted but this is somehow too much for you??
Adams is a witness to Shelley and Lovelady as she moves across the first floor.
This is something you also believe!
Don't you realise that??
It's just that you think it happened a few minutes later.
But now you're questioning whether Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady at all.
You will do anything or say anything to try and score a point but you constantly end up shooting yourself in the foot.
Do you now disagree that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?
Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??
Perhaps they never did. I was reading Shelley's testimony and this stood out;
According to Shelley, he and Lovelady ran towards the railroad yard, after their encounter with Gloria Calvary
At some point they looked back and saw Truly and Baker near the front entrance of the TSBD.
They continued on and when they got to railroad tracks next to the TSBD annex, they saw policemen searching cars, so they decided to re-enter the building, through a small door at the west side of the building
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Lovelady basically tells the same story and confirms that he and Shelley entered the building through a little door at west side of the building
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Now this is where it gets interesting, because Eddie Piper told the WC that he was watching the parade on the 1st floor at the second window from the front entrance of the TSBD.
Shortly after hearing the shots he went to the back of the building, where they make coffee and saw Truly (who he called Boss-man) and a policeman.
If you look at the diagram of the 1st floor it's completely possible that the following events were happening at roughly the same time;
After the shots, Piper moves from the Elm Street window to the coffee place.
In order to get there he has to pass by the small door where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered the 1st floor
There is a clear line of sight between the stairs in the back of the 1st floor, passed the coffee place, to see the door where Shelley and Lovelady entered
With all this going on, Shelley sees Piper and Piper sees Truly and Baker running towards the elevators.
In the meantime Adams and Styles arrive on the 1st floor where Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as they are entering the first floor.
Obviously, the time estimates provided by all individuals involved are all over the place, but as far as the sequence of events goes it is IMO perfectly plausible that all witnesses are in fact telling the truth.
In this scenario, Adams and Styles arrive at the 1st floor just when Shelley and Lovelady enter through the small side door. They see Piper and focus on him, while Piper sees Truly and Baker and focuses on them.
As a result nobody sees Adams and Styles who leave the building through the loading dock just seconds before Truly and Baker get to the elevators.
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Out of all the information, evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing you can come up with is that you find it impossible to understand how Shelley and Lovelady make their way past Baker in the lobby??
Perhaps they never did. I was reading Shelley's testimony and this stood out;
According to Shelley, he and Lovelady ran towards the railroad yard, after their encounter with Gloria Calvary
At some point they looked back and saw Truly and Baker near the front entrance of the TSBD.
They continued on and when they got to railroad tracks next to the TSBD annex, they saw policemen searching cars, so they decided to re-enter the building, through a small door at the west side of the building
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Lovelady basically tells the same story and confirms that he and Shelley entered the building through a little door at west side of the building
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Now this is where it gets interesting, because Eddie Piper told the WC that he was watching the parade on the 1st floor at the second window from the front entrance of the TSBD.
Shortly after hearing the shots he went to the back of the building, where they make coffee and saw Truly (who he called Boss-man) and a policeman.
If you look at the diagram of the 1st floor it's completely possible that the following events were happening at roughly the same time;
After the shots, Piper moves from the Elm Street window to the coffee place.
In order to get there he has to pass by the small door where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered the 1st floor
There is a clear line of sight between the stairs in the back of the 1st floor, passed the coffee place, to see the door where Shelley and Lovelady entered
With all this going on, Shelley sees Piper and Piper sees Truly and Baker running towards the elevators.
In the meantime Adams and Styles arrive on the 1st floor where Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as they are entering the first floor.
Obviously, the time estimates provided by all individuals involved are all over the place, but as far as the sequence of events goes it is IMO perfectly plausible that all witnesses are in fact telling the truth.
In this scenario, Adams and Styles arrive at the 1st floor just when Shelley and Lovelady enter through the small side door. They see Piper and focus on him, while Piper sees Truly and Baker and focuses on them.
As a result nobody sees Adams and Styles who leave the building through the loading dock just seconds before Truly and Baker get to the elevators.
I thought something sort of similar to this until I listened to the "Lost Interview" which is the topic of this thread.
I realised that Vicki was corroborating her WC testimony - that she raced down the stairs within seconds of the last shot, was on the first floor 30 - 60 seconds after the assassination and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
As I understand it, in the scenario you are outlining, at least a few minutes would have passed before Adams encounters Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.
In order for Adams and Styles to make it out of the back door before Truly and Baker arrive they would have to hit the first floor within 40 -50 seconds after the assassination.
There is no other way for the Stroud document to work - in order for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up the stairs, and for neither pair to see the other, Adams and Styles have to leave almost immediately and run all the way (something Adams constantly asserts).
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that it was perfectly feasible for Adams to be on the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the last shot. Truly and Baker arrive on the scene seconds later, where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around in that area. These two men must be Shelley and Lovelady, confirmed by Adams, who witnesses them there at that time (who else could the two white men be?).
That Shelley and Lovelady lie about there movements after the assassination can hardly be denied. The case for this is overwhelming. The clincher is the "3 minute" lie both men tell in their WC testimony.
This is from Reply#401
"On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question."
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Just a closer examination of the '3 Minute Lie' Shelley and Lovelady tell to the WC.
This analysis will leave very little doubt that both men lied about their movements after the assassination.
In his affidavit, taken hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after the shooting he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete 'spur' where he runs into Gloria Calvery.
In his affidavit taken the same day, Lovelady makes no mention of leaving the steps before going back inside the building.
However, by the time of the WC hearings this story has changed. According to Shelley, after the shooting both men are at the steps when Gloria comes running up and after this both men run across to the concrete spur. While they are there they turn to see Baker and Truly at the foot of the front steps:
Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
3 or 4 minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside according to Shelley.
This is completely refuted by the Darnell footage which shows Baker running towards the front steps within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Shelley's lie that it took Gloria 3 or 4 minutes to make it back to the steps is utterly ridiculous. In a previous post I demonstrated that Gloria was at the front steps before Baker got there.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his WC testimony - that it took Gloria three minutes to run from Elm street to the front steps:
Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
After this both men leave the steps and it is after this Lovelady turns to see Baker and Truly going into the building. Both men use the 3 minute timing of Gloria arriving at the steps to timestamp the entry of Baker and Truly into the building. If it was just one of them telling the 3 minute lie it could be written off as some kind of 'misremembrance' but the fact it's both of them reveals an organised and co-ordinated attempt to deliberately alter the timeline of events immediately after the assassination. And this is not the only time - Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash:
"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered the building five or six minutes after the shooting."
The Darnell footage proves this is a lie. As does Vicki witnessing them on the first floor seconds after the assassination (supported by Baker's observation of two white men in the same area).
Once it is accepted as a lie, the rest of their various statements to the investigating authorities can be put in context.
The most honest statements are the first ones given. The affidavits taken hours after the assassination make no mention of going along the Elm Street, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard and no mention of re-entering the building through the west door. There is no mention of Lovelady leaving the steps and he re-enters the building "after it was over". Shelley runs out to the concrete spur, runs into Gloria, returns to the steps and re-enters the building.
The affidavits match perfectly with the analysis I did in Reply#403, capturing the moment Gloria has returned to the steps and Shelley has followed her back. According to their affidavits it is shortly after this moment that both men re-enter the TSBD.
Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI and the lying has begun. He states that both he and Shelley "started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass." He doesn't say they actually went anywhere or for how long, just that they "started running". He also doesn't mention the railroad yard but instead indicates the area where the limo was before it sped away.
Does he mean the railroad yard or the area on Elm Street where the limo slowed down? He clarifies this point in an FBI interview [(3-19-64]
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”
So he is referring to the spot on Elm Street where the limo slowed down to a near stop and not the railroad yard! In this version of events both men stay in that area for five minutes. Add on the time it would take to get there, the time it would take to get back to the building and make their way to the spot where Adams saw them, this would have Adams on the first floor about 12:37pm, making it impossible for her to run out the back, have an interaction with a police officer, race around to the front of the building, have a conversation with Avery Davis and then hear the 12:38pm broadcast of a shooter in the building that persuades her to go back inside.
Worse than this is the FBI statement Shelley gave the day before:
"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Ten minutes later!!
That would place the meeting with Adams on the first floor around 12:41pm. The building would've been locked down before she even got outside!!
I've already been through the lies they told the WC. Lies that completely contradicted the time trials involving Baker and Truly but to which the WC turned a blind eye.
Which just leaves Lovelady's HSCA whopper - that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting.
Only the truly deluded can't recognise these men are lying about their movements after the assassination.
But why would they lie?
The only reason I can see is because they were witnessed on the first floor by Vicki Adams (and Baker) seconds after the assassination and they want to distance themselves from this fact. They are trying to cover up the fact they were near the back of the first floor of the TSBD within seconds of the assassination.
Why are they trying to cover this up?
What is the reason that anyone tries to cover anything up?
The most obvious answer is that they were up to no good and were spotted while in the process.
Maybe there's a more innocent explanation why they would lie to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, but I can't see it.
Nutters will cry, "But what were they up to? What are you accusing them of?"
At the moment I'm accusing them of lying to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA about their movements after the assassination.
I'm accusing them of trying to cover up the fact they raced towards the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination.
Nutters may not find this interesting but I most certainly do.
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Just a closer examination of the '3 Minute Lie' Shelley and Lovelady tell to the WC.
This analysis will leave very little doubt that both men lied about their movements after the assassination.
In his affidavit, taken hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after the shooting he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete 'spur' where he runs into Gloria Calvery.
In his affidavit taken the same day, Lovelady makes no mention of leaving the steps before going back inside the building.
However, by the time of the WC hearings this story has changed. According to Shelley, after the shooting both men are at the steps when Gloria comes running up and after this both men run across to the concrete spur. While they are there they turn to see Baker and Truly at the foot of the front steps:
Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
3 or 4 minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside according to Shelley.
This is completely refuted by the Darnell footage which shows Baker running towards the front steps within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Shelley's lie that it took Gloria 3 or 4 minutes to make it back to the steps is utterly ridiculous. In a previous post I demonstrated that Gloria was at the front steps before Baker got there.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his WC testimony - that it took Gloria three minutes to run from Elm street to the front steps:
Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
After this both men leave the steps and it is after this Lovelady turns to see Baker and Truly going into the building. Both men use the 3 minute timing of Gloria arriving at the steps to timestamp the entry of Baker and Truly into the building. If it was just one of them telling the 3 minute lie it could be written off as some kind of 'misremembrance' but the fact it's both of them reveals an organised and co-ordinated attempt to deliberately alter the timeline of events immediately after the assassination. And this is not the only time - Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash:
"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered the building five or six minutes after the shooting."
The Darnell footage proves this is a lie. As does Vicki witnessing them on the first floor seconds after the assassination (supported by Baker's observation of two white men in the same area).
Once it is accepted as a lie, the rest of their various statements to the investigating authorities can be put in context.
The most honest statements are the first ones given. The affidavits taken hours after the assassination make no mention of going along the Elm Street, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard and no mention of re-entering the building through the west door. There is no mention of Lovelady leaving the steps and he re-enters the building "after it was over". Shelley runs out to the concrete spur, runs into Gloria, returns to the steps and re-enters the building.
The affidavits match perfectly with the analysis I did in Reply#403, capturing the moment Gloria has returned to the steps and Shelley has followed her back. According to their affidavits it is shortly after this moment that both men re-enter the TSBD.
Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI and the lying has begun. He states that both he and Shelley "started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass." He doesn't say they actually went anywhere or for how long, just that they "started running". He also doesn't mention the railroad yard but instead indicates the area where the limo was before it sped away.
Does he mean the railroad yard or the area on Elm Street where the limo slowed down? He clarifies this point in an FBI interview [(3-19-64]
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”
So he is referring to the spot on Elm Street where the limo slowed down to a near stop and not the railroad yard! In this version of events both men stay in that area for five minutes. Add on the time it would take to get there, the time it would take to get back to the building and make their way to the spot where Adams saw them, this would have Adams on the first floor about 12:37pm, making it impossible for her to run out the back, have an interaction with a police officer, race around to the front of the building, have a conversation with Avery Davis and then hear the 12:38pm broadcast of a shooter in the building that persuades her to go back inside.
Worse than this is the FBI statement Shelley gave the day before:
"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Ten minutes later!!
That would place the meeting with Adams on the first floor around 12:41pm. The building would've been locked down before she even got outside!!
I've already been through the lies they told the WC. Lies that completely contradicted the time trials involving Baker and Truly but to which the WC turned a blind eye.
Which just leaves Lovelady's HSCA whopper - that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting.
Only the truly deluded can't recognise these men are lying about their movements after the assassination.
But why would they lie?
The only reason I can see is because they were witnessed on the first floor by Vicki Adams (and Baker) seconds after the assassination and they want to distance themselves from this fact. They are trying to cover up the fact they were near the back of the first floor of the TSBD within seconds of the assassination.
Why are they trying to cover this up?
What is the reason that anyone tries to cover anything up?
The most obvious answer is that they were up to no good and were spotted while in the process.
Maybe there's a more innocent explanation why they would lie to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, but I can't see it.
Nutters will cry, "But what were they up to? What are you accusing them of?"
At the moment I'm accusing them of lying to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA about their movements after the assassination.
I'm accusing them of trying to cover up the fact they raced towards the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination.
Nutters may not find this interesting but I most certainly do.
You've made a persuasive case to justify the conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady's time estimates can not be trusted or relied upon.
As for the sequence of events, I still don't understand how Shelley and Lovelady could have arrived at the stairs before Truly and Baker. In the 1978 made for TV movie "Ruby and Oswald" there is a clip showing actors playing Truly and Baker running from the front entrance counter to the elevators and they needed no more that 20 seconds to get to the stairs. So, if Shelley and Lovelady were still on the front steps when Truly and Baker went inside the building, how could it be that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady but not Truly and Baker?
On the other hand, Shelley and Lovelady would have been able to enter the first floor at the side door within seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building. If that's what happened, it explains how Shelley could have seen Eddie Piper, who placed himself right in their line of sight in his testimony. Adams also had a clear line of sight to where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered. I still believe that she could have seen the men just a split second before leaving the building, just before Truly and Baker got there.
The reason why I think Shelley and Lovelady are being truthful about where the re-entered the building is a video clip that Gerda Dunckel made some years ago, which shows Shelley and Lovelady walking in front of the TSBD towards the parking lot.
I had hoped to find it in the photo galary but it isn't there and I haven't found it elsewhere either. There is however another clip (# 10 in Gerda's collection) which (I believe, but do not know for sure) shows Shelley talking to a police officer in the parking lot. If it is Shelley, I also can't tell when the footage was shot. I would love to find the other video though. Perhaps another member has it and can post it.
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You've made a persuasive case to justify the conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady's time estimates can not be trusted or relied upon.
As for the sequence of events, I still don't understand how Shelley and Lovelady could have arrived at the stairs before Truly and Baker. In the 1978 made for TV movie "Ruby and Oswald" there is a clip showing actors playing Truly and Baker running from the front entrance counter to the elevators and they needed no more that 20 seconds to get to the stairs. So, if Shelley and Lovelady were still on the front steps when Truly and Baker went inside the building, how could it be that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady but not Truly and Baker?
On the other hand, Shelley and Lovelady would have been able to enter the first floor at the side door within seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building. If that's what happened, it explains how Shelley could have seen Eddie Piper, who placed himself right in their line of sight in his testimony. Adams also had a clear line of sight to where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered. I still believe that she could have seen the men just a split second before leaving the building, just before Truly and Baker got there.
I have definitely been emphasising the veracity of what Adams testified to in her WC testimony as she reiterates the same points in the "Lost Interview". I think this is further supported by her statement to the DPD where she first mentions seeing Shelley and Lovelady.
She constantly asserts that she leaves the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. She states it was immediately after the last shot and that she had made the decision to go and investigate before the limo had even reached the underpass.
Seconds later Dillard takes a pic which includes the fourth floor window Adams was watching events out of. She and Styles are nowhere to be seen. This is to be expected if she has already decided to get downstairs.
I have demonstrated that Adams could've been on the first floor 35 -40 seconds after the last shot and before Truly and Baker make it to the area near the elevator The Stroud document confirms that this was indeed the case.
Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as she runs from the first floor stairs to the back door. She is certain and precise about their position:
Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Slightly east of the east elevator and as far south as the length of the elevator.
In the diagram below the circle marks this approximate area and the line shows Adams' approximate route.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8nmkKMB/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Adams can be sure of this position because she has an interaction with them:
Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS. Nothing.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
In my opinion, it is impossible for Shelley and Lovelady to get down to the west door and into the position Adams sees them within 35 - 40 seconds.
Another problem with the west door theory is that Adams is racing towards the Houston Street loading dock door and would have her back to the west door. She would be running away from it and she would not have been able to have any kind of interaction with Shelley and Lovelady.
On top of that, the west door theory is relying on the word of Shelley and Lovelady, two liars who are specifically lying about their movements after the assassination.
So, how do Shelley and Lovelady end up near the elevators before Truly and Baker in the theory that emanates from taking Vicki at her word?
In Reply#403 I brought together as much relevant evidence as I could to recreate the seconds immediately after the assassination regarding the movements of Shelley and Lovelady. It culminated in this series of identifications:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
According to the theory I'm developing here, the above pic shows Baker almost at the bottom of the steps, near where Shelley is standing. Lovelady is a few steps up listening to Gloria. But note Truly, he is the furthest away from the front door and is looking the wrong way.
As the seconds roll on from this point, Baker makes his way up the steps (probably the west side as he is remembered by Pauline Saunders who is stood on the west side). Baker enters the lobby and wants to find out about getting up through the building. As Baker is moving up the steps into the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way up the steps, pass Baker in the lobby and move into the first floor working area. They are followed up the steps by Truly who enters the lobby and goes straight to Baker. He and Baker have some kind of interaction before they head off for the elevators.
Shelley and Lovelady are just a few seconds ahead of them, they arrive at the position shown on the map above where they are seen by Adams. Adams exits through the back door and Baker and Truly arrive where Baker notices two white men just stood around the area near the elevators.
Baker makes this point in his WC testimony - as he enters the building he is aware of other people entering with him.
Mr. Belin: What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. Baker: As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. Belin: All right.
Mr. Baker: And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these people entering at the same time as him are Shelley and Lovelady who are closer to the front door than Truly is. It should be noted that, according to Baker, Truly arrives on the scene after the people who have entered with him.
The reason why I think Shelley and Lovelady are being truthful about where the re-entered the building is a video clip that Gerda Dunckel made some years ago, which shows Shelley and Lovelady walking in front of the TSBD towards the parking lot.
I had hoped to find it in the photo galary but it isn't there and I haven't found it elsewhere either. There is however another clip (# 10 in Gerda's collection) which (I believe, but do not know for sure) shows Shelley talking to a police officer in the parking lot. If it is Shelley, I also can't tell when the footage was shot. I would love to find the other video though. Perhaps another member has it and can post it.
I know the Dunkel clip you're talking about but the truth is that a close analysis of this clip shows that these men are not walking together. At the beginning of the clip one man is behind the other and as it rolls the man at the back moves quickly past the other and keeps going. Neither man looks back towards the steps where they are supposed to see Baker at the bottom of the steps. Neither man has run to the concrete spur, as both men lied, I mean, testified to. I think it was Alan Ford who had the rare insight that Danny Arce was a good candidate for the slower of the two.
I certainly don't buy it's them and have put a case forward for Shelley and Lovelady still being at the steps when Baker arrives, a position they can realistically make it to the back of the first floor while Truly talks with Baker.
Final note - there is definitely something going on with the west door. They are mentioning it for a specific reason. It is doubtless something to do with whatever it is they are trying to cover up.
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Slightly east of the east elevator and as far south as the length of the elevator.
In the diagram below the circle marks this approximate area and the line shows Adams' approximate route.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8nmkKMB/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Are you sure of the route Adams took?
If Adams and Styles took that route, they would have been directly in the line of sight of Truly and Baker as they were running towards the elevator.
It has always been my understanding that Adams and Styles went outside using the big loading door between the stairs and the elevators, which at that time was open.
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Are you sure of the route Adams took?
If Adams and Styles took that route, they would have been directly in the line of sight of Truly and Baker as they were running towards the elevator.
It has always been my understanding that Adams and Styles went outside using the big loading door between the stairs and the elevators, which at that time was open.
I'm pretty sure.
Adams states:
"I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
I get the distinct impression she is referring to the door leading directly out onto the Houston Street loading dock ( marked on the diagram) and her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady happens as she is "on the way out to" the Houston Street dock. To me, the phrase "on the way out to" implies there is some distance between the bottom of the stairs and the door she exits through. I also think it makes more sense that this is her route in terms of her interaction with Shelley and Lovelady.
Obviously, Baker and Truly don't see Adams and Styles exiting the first floor and this clearly favours your suggestion of the loading door at the bottom of the stairs. However, if Truly and Baker are still in the lobby or just starting to make their way out of that area into the main body of the first floor, this would explain why they never saw Adams or Styles exiting at the opposite end of the building.
It must also be remembered that there was some kind of momentary hold up as Baker crashed into the back of Truly at the swinging door between the lobby and the main working area.
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Establishing Shelley lied about his movements after the assassination has important ramifications.
It shows he was trying to cover something up and that he was more than willing to lie to the various investigating authorities on multiple occasions.
It also casts huge doubts over other statements made by Shelley which are of huge significance in regard to the aftermath of the assassination.
The first one I'd like to examine is related to Oswald's alibi.
Oswald may have been a lot of things but he was not stupid.
When a person gives an alibi to the police they know they have gone on record and that this is the version of events that will be used against them in a court of law. For anyone accused of a crime, the most important element of their defence is the alibi. They also know that once the alibi is given it will be checked to see how 'cast iron' it is. If someone is giving a false alibi it must be one that is incredibly difficult to verify or one that has been agreed with an accomplice.
Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements.
According to what Oswald reportedly said -
1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] He finished his lunch and, possibly while he was finishing it, got together with Bill Shelley.
6] Shelley told him there would be no more work that day and that it was okay for him to take the rest of the day off.
7] Oswald left the building.
Firstly, there is no way to verify that Oswald was in the Domino Room when JFK passed by. Although Oswald does seem to confirm this with his mention of Junior Jarman and, presumably, Hank Norman. The only time he could have seen these two men together on the first floor is when they entered the back door of the TSBD building on their way up to the fifth floor. Because the east elevator wasn't available Jarman and Norman had to walk around the elevators to get the west elevator. Walking around the elevators would have brought them into line of sight for someone sat in the Domino room. This makes Oswald's apparent mention of seeing these men together compelling evidence supporting his assertion he was in the first floor lunchroom at the time JFK went by.
Unfortunately for Oswald, neither Jarman nor Norman saw him so there is no direct alibi.
Secondly, the second floor lunchroom encounter is well attested to and seems to be confirmed by Oswald, Baker and Truly (not to mention Mrs Robert Reid who saw Oswald close to the lunchroom with a Coke in his hand a couple of minutes after the assassination). There is a wrinkle - Oswald appears to make it clear he had already bought his Coke and was sipping it when Baker burst in, something supported by Baker's initial report in which he had written Oswald was already drinking a Coke when the encounter occurred but which was then crudely crossed out. This really buggers up the timeline for Oswald allegedly getting down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom. Whatever the case, there is ample confirmation that Oswald was indeed in the second floor lunchroom seconds after the assassination.
The third element to Oswald's alibi is his interaction with Bill Shelley. Apparently, Oswald credits Bill Shelley with his motive for leaving the building. The importance of this cannot be stressed enough because it is Oswald's choice to leave the TSBD that alerts the authorities to him. It is his decision to 'flee the scene' that puts him well and truly in the spotlight as a prime suspect on the day of the assassination. Even if he actually pulled the trigger, he has no reason to run immediately. He has already encountered the police, seconds after the shooting, four floors below the location of the shooting and has been given a pass. They can't immediately trace the rifle to him, they can't use fingerprint evidence against him on the day. All he has to do is hold his nerve, say he was on the second floor lunchroom all along and skip town later that day. But instead he runs.
So let's imagine that he is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law.
Why on earth would he add the detail that he'd talked to Bill Shelley after the lunchroom incident and it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day? He saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview and Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knows that all they have to do is ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. Which they did. And Shelley denied it.
This is the point of what I'm getting at. I may have certain details wrong but the bottom line is that Oswald reportedly included Shelley as part of his alibi.
Why did he do that?
Maybe he just thought that, by some miracle, Shelley would back him up. That, although this incident never happened, Shelley would somehow know, when being questioned, that Oswald was asking him to lie to the police on his behalf and back him up.
Or maybe he did talk to Shelley after the lunchroom incident and Shelley knowingly denied it (due to a lack of imagination, I can't really come up with a third option.)
So, which of these two options makes sense - that Oswald was so utterly stupid as to include Shelley in a false alibi or that Oswald was telling the truth about this chat with Shelley, which is why he felt comfortable telling his interrogators about it?
I would argue it is the second option. Furthermore, it is as if Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up on this. Why else say it?
So, it's looking like Shelley also lied about this chat with Oswald after the second floor lunchroom incident and before Oswald left the building - a timespan of 3 to 4 minutes after the assassination.
Thoughts?
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A follow up to the last post.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Oswald and Shelley were 'shooting the breeze' after the assassination about the work situation for the rest of the day.
In my opinion Oswald fled the scene, which is indicative of guilt. Once he was outside the TSBD building he was a man on the run and was in the process of heading for the border when he ran into J D Tippit.
I have no reason to doubt Marina's testimony that Oswald confessed to the attempted murder of Walker and that he left behind his wedding band and all the money he had in case of his arrest (something he also did on the day of the assassination).
Oswald was not some 'ordinary Joe' unknowingly caught up in the events of the day. He was up to his eyeballs in what was going on.
His mention of Shelley as an alibi smacks of someone who expects to be backed up by an accomplice.
I don't believe Oswald took the shots that day and any available credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald.
A good example is that three of the five eye-witnesses who saw a man on the 6th floor around the time of the shooting (Fischer, Roberts and Rowland) describe a man wearing clothes Oswald did not wear to work that day and did not possess.
Once it's not Oswald who took the shots then it's Conspiracy Time.
That is why I find the lies of Shelley and Lovelady so fascinating - anyone lying about their movements after the assassination needs closer scrutiny.
And now we have Shelley throwing Oswald under the bus regarding his alibi.
Why would Oswald mention Shelley as part of his alibi if it was so easily refuted?
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Was everyone given the rest of the day off ? Seems weird to me.
Possible killer in that building!
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Was everyone given the rest of the day off ? Seems weird to me.
Possible killer in that building!
What do you think should have happened?
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Was everyone given the rest of the day off ? Seems weird to me.
Possible killer in that building!
And the play should have gone on after Lincoln was assassinated. Imagine if the world were deprived of this kind of commentary? I can't wait until we get 50 pages of analysis of the movements of "Johnny Peanut" Spangler which proves Booth could not be the assassin.
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And the play should have gone on after Lincoln was assassinated. Imagine if the world were deprived of this kind of commentary? I can't wait until we get 50 pages of analysis of the movements of "Johnny Peanut" Spangler which proves Booth could not be the assassin.
Rather than marvel at the relentless nothingness of your posts, let's see if you can actually take part in a debate without simply parroting your spoon-fed beliefs.
Why do you think Oswald included Shelley as part of his alibi?
Why do you think Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination?
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Rather than marvel at the relentless nothingness of your posts, let's see if you can actually take part in a debate without simply parroting your spoon-fed beliefs.
Why do you think Oswald included Shelley as part of his alibi?
Why do you think Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination?
As completely expected "Richard Smith" is unable and unwilling to answer. In fact, it's a mystery to me why he is even a member of this forum, as all he does is post his superficial opinions as if they are conclusive and then completely fails to provide any kind of evidence to back them up. Instead of having a reasonable discussion, all he does to cover up his own incompetence to provide proof for his idiotic claims is ridicule those who debunk his BS time after time.
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As completely expected "Richard Smith" is unable and unwilling to answer. In fact, it's a mystery to me why he is even a member of this forum, as all he does is post his superficial opinions as if they are conclusive and then completely fails to provide any kind of evidence to back them up. Instead of having a reasonable discussion, all he does to cover up his own incompetence to provide proof for his idiotic claims is ridicule those who debunk his BS time after time.
I watched a documentary recently about the West Memphis 3, about three teenagers accused of the truly shocking murders of three little kids. As I understood it, during the trial a bunch of people came forward for one of the accused saying that he was at a wrestling meet, many miles away from the murder location, at the time of the murders. About six or seven people gave him a cast iron alibi - but the jury just ignored this evidence!!
I found this totally mind-blowing. My only understanding of it was that the members of the jury 'wanted' him to be guilty and no amount of evidence was strong enough to change this desire for his guilt. And that really reminds me of Nutters like Tricky Dicky.
To be honest though, it reminds me of most of the members of this forum regardless of their outlook on the case. They've got their theory and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change that.
At least most members will debate what they believe, providing evidence and arguments to support their views. Tricky just parrots his spoon-fed beliefs and I'm not surprised he's avoiding any kind of debate because I show him up for what he really is every time he tries.
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I watched a documentary recently about the West Memphis 3, about three teenagers accused of the truly shocking murders of three little kids. As I understood it, during the trial a bunch of people came forward for one of the accused saying that he was at a wrestling meet, many miles away from the murder location, at the time of the murders. About six or seven people gave him a cast iron alibi - but the jury just ignored this evidence!!
I found this totally mind-blowing. My only understanding of it was that the members of the jury 'wanted' him to be guilty and no amount of evidence was strong enough to change this desire for his guilt. And that really reminds me of Nutters like Tricky Dicky.
To be honest though, it reminds me of most of the members of this forum regardless of their outlook on the case. They've got their theory and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change that.
At least most members will debate what they believe, providing evidence and arguments to support their views. Tricky just parrots his spoon-fed beliefs and I'm not surprised he's avoiding any kind of debate because I show him up for what he really is every time he tries.
To be honest though, it reminds me of most of the members of this forum regardless of their outlook on the case. They've got their theory and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change that.
You do or do not see yourself in that statement?
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Rather than marvel at the relentless nothingness of your posts, let's see if you can actually take part in a debate without simply parroting your spoon-fed beliefs.
Why do you think Oswald included Shelley as part of his alibi?
Why do you think Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination?
Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes. Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting. That they were "in" on the plot? LOL. Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying." Again, though, if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet? What are you hoping happens here? It's 55 pages and counting with no end in sight.
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Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes. Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting. That they were "in" on the plot? LOL. Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying." Again, though, if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet? What are you hoping happens here? It's 55 pages and counting with no end in sight.
Exactly, three policemen and Shelley and Lovelady all relate a different story but only Adams and Styles are to be believed. The depth of the conspiracy is incredible. It even encompasses issues that really don't matter. If A and S had never left the 4th floor at all, what difference would it make. Oswald was coming down the stairs, not up them. Dan has them leaving so early that they do not encounter anyone doing anything. What is the point of this whole exercise? Proving Shelley and Lovelady lied about what?
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I watched a documentary recently about the West Memphis 3, about three teenagers accused of the truly shocking murders of three little kids. As I understood it, during the trial a bunch of people came forward for one of the accused saying that he was at a wrestling meet, many miles away from the murder location, at the time of the murders. About six or seven people gave him a cast iron alibi - but the jury just ignored this evidence!!
I found this totally mind-blowing. My only understanding of it was that the members of the jury 'wanted' him to be guilty and no amount of evidence was strong enough to change this desire for his guilt. And that really reminds me of Nutters like Tricky Dicky.
To be honest though, it reminds me of most of the members of this forum regardless of their outlook on the case. They've got their theory and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change that.
At least most members will debate what they believe, providing evidence and arguments to support their views. Tricky just parrots his spoon-fed beliefs and I'm not surprised he's avoiding any kind of debate because I show him up for what he really is every time he tries.
Innocent people sometimes confess. Almost every guilty person claims innocence. On occasion the criminal justice system does get it wrong. Mostly it gets it right. All this deflection, however, has no relevance on Oswald's situation. The evidence that places him on the 6th floor as the assassin is lightyears more persuasive than any alibi. His gun, his prints, his bullet casings, witness ID, no credible alibi, his nutty political background, flight from the scene, involvement in the murder of a police officer less than an hour later, resisting arrest, his rifle is missing etc. It is a drumbeat of guilt for any objective person. Oswald provides no explanation for this evidence and his actions. Instead he is caught in numerous lies. The fact that in the history of criminal justice, some innocent people have been convicted does not create a scintilla of doubt as to Oswald's guilt (and you picked a particularly dubious case as an example since the Memphis 3 were never cleared of the crime. To the contrary, many people still believe the opposite since they were convicted twice. Rather the justice system was coerced by Hollywood pressure to release them after an Alford plea which means they plead guilty to be released.). It's the evidence that convinces me of Oswald's guilt. I see no reasonable or credible explanation much less actual supporting evidence that lends itself to explaining this evidence in any other way except that Oswald was the assassin. Not because I'm closed minded. Why would I or anyone else have a bias against Oswald or a conspiracy? For example, I accept that there was a conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln and that John Wilkes Booth was the assassin because (AGAIN) that is what the evidence demonstrates. That conclusion has nothing to do with bias or being closed minded. Suggesting that others don't accept your theories because they are closed minded or just accept what they are told is an immature way to dismiss dissenting views.
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Innocent people sometimes confess. Almost every guilty person claims innocence. On occasion the criminal justice system does get it wrong. Mostly it gets it right. All this deflection, however, has no relevance on Oswald's situation. The evidence that places him on the 6th floor as the assassin is lightyears more persuasive than any alibi. His gun, his prints, his bullet casings, witness ID, no credible alibi, his nutty political background, flight from the scene, involvement in the murder of a police officer less than an hour later, resisting arrest, his rifle is missing etc. It is a drumbeat of guilt for any objective person. Oswald provides no explanation for this evidence and his actions. Instead he is caught in numerous lies. The fact that in the history of criminal justice, some innocent people have been convicted does not create a scintilla of doubt as to Oswald's guilt (and you picked a particularly dubious case as an example since the Memphis 3 were never cleared of the crime. To the contrary, many people still believe the opposite since they were convicted twice. Rather the justice system was coerced by Hollywood pressure to release them after an Alford plea which means they plead guilty to be released.). It's the evidence that convinces me of Oswald's guilt. I see no reasonable or credible explanation much less actual supporting evidence that lends itself to explaining this evidence in any other way except that Oswald was the assassin. Not because I'm closed minded. Why would I or anyone else have a bias against Oswald or a conspiracy? For example, I accept that there was a conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln and that John Wilkes Booth was the assassin because (AGAIN) that is what the evidence demonstrates. That conclusion has nothing to do with bias or being closed minded. Suggesting that others don't accept your theories because they are closed minded or just accept what they are told is an immature way to dismiss dissenting views.
Suggesting that others don't accept your theories because they are closed minded or just accept what they are told is an immature way to dismiss dissenting views.
Says the guy who will never discuss, accept or question anything that does not agree with his theory. Immature indeed Thumb1: :D :D :D :D
The evidence that places him on the 6th floor as the assassin is lightyears more persuasive than any alibi. His gun, his prints, his bullet casings, witness ID, no credible alibi, his nutty political background, flight from the scene, involvement in the murder of a police officer less than an hour later, resisting arrest, his rifle is missing etc. It is a drumbeat of guilt for any objective person.
Says the least objective guy who will never understand or accept that none of this so-called "evidence" is even remotely conclusive and none of it places Oswald on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired.
If any reader wants confirmation of this basic fact, just ask "Richard Smith" how any of the "evidence" actually proves that Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. Go ahead, just ask him..... but don't be surprised (if you get an answer at all) that all you get is a lot of rhetorical BS that's not supported by any evidence.
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Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes. Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting. That they were "in" on the plot? LOL. Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying." Again, though, if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet? What are you hoping happens here? It's 55 pages and counting with no end in sight.
Again, though, if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed
Classic LN reversal of the burden of proof.
The LN "logic" being that if Oswald could have made his way down the stairs unnoticed, then that's what he did! Never mind that the LNs or the WC could actually even prove that Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired to begin with.
Pathetic!
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Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes. Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting. That they were "in" on the plot? LOL. Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying." Again, though, if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet? What are you hoping happens here? It's 55 pages and counting with no end in sight.
Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes.
Yet again with the child-like attempt to be devious. Are you not embarrassed by this strategy?
Everyone can see that I didn't ask - why would Oswald make up an alibi?
I asked this question:
"Why do you think Oswald included Shelley as part of his alibi?"
It's a very simple question but you have to pretend you don't understand it.
In Reply#426 I examine Oswald's alibi in detail and it is from this analysis that the question about Shelley arises.
In your fantasy, Oswald has shot and killed JFK. The most incriminating action Oswald takes after the assassination is to leave the TSBD building and he must come up with an excuse as to why he did this.
So he says that he had a chat with Bill Shelley who advised him there wouldn't be any more work that day and this is why he left.
Oswald has introduced Bill Shelley into his alibi and I am asking you a very simple question - why would he do this?
Obviously, because you're a Nutter, you won't be able to come up with any reason that doesn't sound ridiculous so you have to pretend, like a little child, that you don't understand the question.
Surely it's the case that Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice.
But in you're fantasy you have no way of answering the very simple question I've asked, so you have to pretend your way out of it.
Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting.
It has been established beyond doubt that Shelley and Oswald lied about their movements after the assassination. Many of my posts focus on this aspect and I cover it in detail. Rather than deal with a single argument I've presented you simply call it a "false premise" but don't give a single reason why it's a false premise. It's your usual lazy approach. You refuse to engage in any meaningful debate because you know you will be crushed once again in front of the forum. So you pretend you don't understand questions, throw out unfounded accusations and lie. You forget, the forum is a record of your constant use of underhand tactics. It is also a record of the detailed arguments I have put forward and the copious amount of evidence I've used to support these arguments.
So the question remains - "Why do you think Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination?"
Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying."
You are living proof that humans do not have a scientific recall of events.
"Lying", as I am using the word against Shelley, Lovelady or anyone else, is the deliberate fabrication of events.
It is not misremembering or misunderstanding. It is not forgetting details or even putting things in the wrong order. It is making up things that didn't happen.
It's the "official" story of Shelley and Lovelady that after three minutes had passed, Gloria Calvery came running up to them and told them the President was shot, after which they made their way out to the "little, old island" at which point they saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building.
This is a made up series of events, a deliberate fabrication.
This is proved to be the case because of the Darnell footage. There is film footage of Baker reaching the area at the bottom of the front steps within seconds of the assassination. This is a fact. Lovelady and Shelley are still at the steps when this happens. The story about them waiting for 3 minutes before Gloria runs up to the steps, moving over to the concrete 'spur' then seeing Baker and Truly at the front steps is a lie - do you dispute this?
It would be one thing if only one of them told this lie, even though it would still be inexplicable. But that both men are telling exactly the same lie is damning.
So it isn't a misremembering or a misunderstanding. This is proven to be the case because Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash.
When Lovelady says both men ran down to where the limo slowed and stayed there for 5 minutes - Lie.
When Shelley says both men accompanied police officers down to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes - Lie.
When Lovelady says he didn't re-enter the TSBD for 15 to 20 minutes - Lie.
Above all, there is credible eye-witness testimony that Shelley and Lovelady are lying - Vicki Adams sees them on the first floor 30 - 60 seconds after the shooting.
if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet?
You keep making this point and it's kind of creepy.
For the third or fourth time now - what I'm posting has absolutely nothing to do with the movements of Oswald.
What is it you're not understanding about that?
In your fantasy Oswald has somehow teleported down to the second floor. Jarman, Williams and Norman don't hear him moving on the wooden floor just above their heads. Jack Dougherty, who is literally stood by the stairs on the fifth floor, doesn't see or hear him descending. Garner (and other woman looking out of the west windows) don't see him walking by - remember, it's not just a question of him walking down the stairs, at each floor he has to walk about 15 feet across the floor itself to get to the top of the next flight of stairs.
But none of this proves that he wasn't on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. It just makes it very unlikely.
What proves it wasn't Oswald on the 6th floor is the 3 eye-witnesses (Rowland, Fischer and Roberts) who describe the man on the 6th floor wearing clothes Oswald didn't wear to work that day and didn't even own. Fischer and Roberts got a good look at the man and refused to identify him as Oswald (so did Brennan for that matter).
Detective F M Turner had this to say about Fischer and Roberts:
Mr. Turner: I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.
Mr. Belin: What do you have about them?
Mr. Turner: They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.
In their various testimonies both men state that the open-necked sports shirt was white. Oswald didn't own such a garment at the time of the assassination.
If the shooter was wearing clothes Oswald didn't own, then common sense dictates it wasn't Oswald.
Which is why Roberts, Fischer and Brennan refused to identify the man as Oswald.
Which is why Fischer thought the man on the 6th floor had a much lighter complexion than Oswald.
Which is why Brennan thought the man on the 6th floor was much older than Oswald.
Which is why Oswald was discovered on the second floor seconds after the assassination.
Which is why Oswald could see Jarman and Norman on the first floor of the TSBD building less than 5 minutes before the assassination.
Which is why Garner didn't see Oswald walking across the fourth floor.
Which is why Brennan saw the gunman still stood at the window at least 8 seconds after the shooting.
Which is why Oswald was already sipping a Coke when Baker burst in the second floor lunchroom.
But let's not stray from the topic at hand - the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams.
Her eye-witness testimony has Shelley and Lovelady towards the back of the first floor seconds after the shooting.
What were they doing there?
Why did they lie about their movements?
Other than the lies of Lovelady and Shelley, what evidence do you have that they weren't at the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination?
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Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes.
Yet again with the child-like attempt to be devious. Are you not embarrassed by this strategy?
Everyone can see that I didn't ask - why would Oswald make up an alibi?
I asked this question:
"Why do you think Oswald included Shelley as part of his alibi?"
It's a very simple question but you have to pretend you don't understand it.
In Reply#426 I examine Oswald's alibi in detail and it is from this analysis that the question about Shelley arises.
In your fantasy, Oswald has shot and killed JFK. The most incriminating action Oswald takes after the assassination is to leave the TSBD building and he must come up with an excuse as to why he did this.
So he says that he had a chat with Bill Shelley who advised him there wouldn't be any more work that day and this is why he left.
Oswald has introduced Bill Shelley into his alibi and I am asking you a very simple question - why would he do this?
Obviously, because you're a Nutter, you won't be able to come up with any reason that doesn't sound ridiculous so you have to pretend, like a little child, that you don't understand the question.
Surely it's the case that Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice.
But in you're fantasy you have no way of answering the very simple question I've asked, so you have to pretend your way out of it.
Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting.
It has been established beyond doubt that Shelley and Oswald lied about their movements after the assassination. Many of my posts focus on this aspect and I cover it in detail. Rather than deal with a single argument I've presented you simply call it a "false premise" but don't give a single reason why it's a false premise. It's your usual lazy approach. You refuse to engage in any meaningful debate because you know you will be crushed once again in front of the forum. So you pretend you don't understand questions, throw out unfounded accusations and lie. You forget, the forum is a record of your constant use of underhand tactics. It is also a record of the detailed arguments I have put forward and the copious amount of evidence I've used to support these arguments.
So the question remains - "Why do you think Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination?"
Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying."
You are living proof that humans do not have a scientific recall of events.
"Lying", as I am using the word against Shelley, Lovelady or anyone else, is the deliberate fabrication of events.
It is not misremembering or misunderstanding. It is not forgetting details or even putting things in the wrong order. It is making up things that didn't happen.
It's the "official" story of Shelley and Lovelady that after three minutes had passed, Gloria Calvery came running up to them and told them the President was shot, after which they made their way out to the "little, old island" at which point they saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building.
This is a made up series of events, a deliberate fabrication.
This is proved to be the case because of the Darnell footage. There is film footage of Baker reaching the area at the bottom of the front steps within seconds of the assassination. This is a fact. Lovelady and Shelley are still at the steps when this happens. The story about them waiting for 3 minutes before Gloria runs up to the steps, moving over to the concrete 'spur' then seeing Baker and Truly at the front steps is a lie - do you dispute this?
It would be one thing if only one of them told this lie, even though it would still be inexplicable. But that both men are telling exactly the same lie is damning.
So it isn't a misremembering or a misunderstanding. This is proven to be the case because Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash.
When Lovelady says both men ran down to where the limo slowed and stayed there for 5 minutes - Lie.
When Shelley says both men accompanied police officers down to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes - Lie.
When Lovelady says he didn't re-enter the TSBD for 15 to 20 minutes - Lie.
Above all, there is credible eye-witness testimony that Shelley and Lovelady are lying - Vicki Adams sees them on the first floor 30 - 60 seconds after the shooting.
if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet?
You keep making this point and it's kind of creepy.
For the third or fourth time now - what I'm posting has absolutely nothing to do with the movements of Oswald.
What is it you're not understanding about that?
In your fantasy Oswald has somehow teleported down to the second floor. Jarman, Williams and Norman don't hear him moving on the wooden floor just above their heads. Jack Dougherty, who is literally stood by the stairs on the fifth floor, doesn't see or hear him descending. Garner (and other woman looking out of the west windows) don't see him walking by - remember, it's not just a question of him walking down the stairs, at each floor he has to walk about 15 feet across the floor itself to get to the top of the next flight of stairs.
But none of this proves that he wasn't on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. It just makes it very unlikely.
What proves it wasn't Oswald on the 6th floor is the 3 eye-witnesses (Rowland, Fischer and Roberts) who describe the man on the 6th floor wearing clothes Oswald didn't wear to work that day and didn't even own. Fischer and Roberts got a good look at the man and refused to identify him as Oswald (so did Brennan for that matter).
Detective F M Turner had this to say about Fischer and Roberts:
Mr. Turner: I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.
Mr. Belin: What do you have about them?
Mr. Turner: They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.
In their various testimonies both men state that the open-necked sports shirt was white. Oswald didn't own such a garment at the time of the assassination.
If the shooter was wearing clothes Oswald didn't own, then common sense dictates it wasn't Oswald.
Which is why Roberts, Fischer and Brennan refused to identify the man as Oswald.
Which is why Fischer thought the man on the 6th floor had a much lighter complexion than Oswald.
Which is why Brennan thought the man on the 6th floor was much older than Oswald.
Which is why Oswald was discovered on the second floor seconds after the assassination.
Which is why Oswald could see Jarman and Norman on the first floor of the TSBD building less than 5 minutes before the assassination.
Which is why Garner didn't see Oswald walking across the fourth floor.
Which is why Brennan saw the gunman still stood at the window at least 8 seconds after the shooting.
Which is why Oswald was already sipping a Coke when Baker burst in the second floor lunchroom.
But let's not stray from the topic at hand - the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams.
Her eye-witness testimony has Shelley and Lovelady towards the back of the first floor seconds after the shooting.
What were they doing there?
Why did they lie about their movements?
Other than the lies of Lovelady and Shelley, what evidence do you have that they weren't at the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination?
From post # 426
DM: "So let's imagine that he is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law.
Why on earth would he add the detail that he'd talked to Bill Shelley after the lunchroom incident and it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day? He saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview and Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knows that all they have to do is ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. Which they did. And Shelley denied it."
And Shelley denied it. Because it never happened, not because Shelley is not telling what you and you alone believe to be the truth.
Now how does this make Shelley a liar and Oswald is telling the truth?
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Imagine a double murderer who had just assassinated the president making up an alibi. We don't need to put that one to Sherlock Holmes.
Yet again with the child-like attempt to be devious. Are you not embarrassed by this strategy?
Everyone can see that I didn't ask - why would Oswald make up an alibi?
I asked this question:
"Why do you think Oswald included Shelley as part of his alibi?"
It's a very simple question but you have to pretend you don't understand it.
In Reply#426 I examine Oswald's alibi in detail and it is from this analysis that the question about Shelley arises.
In your fantasy, Oswald has shot and killed JFK. The most incriminating action Oswald takes after the assassination is to leave the TSBD building and he must come up with an excuse as to why he did this.
So he says that he had a chat with Bill Shelley who advised him there wouldn't be any more work that day and this is why he left.
Oswald has introduced Bill Shelley into his alibi and I am asking you a very simple question - why would he do this?
Obviously, because you're a Nutter, you won't be able to come up with any reason that doesn't sound ridiculous so you have to pretend, like a little child, that you don't understand the question.
Surely it's the case that Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice.
But in you're fantasy you have no way of answering the very simple question I've asked, so you have to pretend your way out of it.
Your second question contains a false premise since no one lied but if you think individuals were intentionally lying then perhaps you should explain what you are suggesting.
It has been established beyond doubt that Shelley and Oswald lied about their movements after the assassination. Many of my posts focus on this aspect and I cover it in detail. Rather than deal with a single argument I've presented you simply call it a "false premise" but don't give a single reason why it's a false premise. It's your usual lazy approach. You refuse to engage in any meaningful debate because you know you will be crushed once again in front of the forum. So you pretend you don't understand questions, throw out unfounded accusations and lie. You forget, the forum is a record of your constant use of underhand tactics. It is also a record of the detailed arguments I have put forward and the copious amount of evidence I've used to support these arguments.
So the question remains - "Why do you think Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination?"
Human beings do not have scientific level of recall of events. That does not mean they are "lying."
You are living proof that humans do not have a scientific recall of events.
"Lying", as I am using the word against Shelley, Lovelady or anyone else, is the deliberate fabrication of events.
It is not misremembering or misunderstanding. It is not forgetting details or even putting things in the wrong order. It is making up things that didn't happen.
It's the "official" story of Shelley and Lovelady that after three minutes had passed, Gloria Calvery came running up to them and told them the President was shot, after which they made their way out to the "little, old island" at which point they saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building.
This is a made up series of events, a deliberate fabrication.
This is proved to be the case because of the Darnell footage. There is film footage of Baker reaching the area at the bottom of the front steps within seconds of the assassination. This is a fact. Lovelady and Shelley are still at the steps when this happens. The story about them waiting for 3 minutes before Gloria runs up to the steps, moving over to the concrete 'spur' then seeing Baker and Truly at the front steps is a lie - do you dispute this?
It would be one thing if only one of them told this lie, even though it would still be inexplicable. But that both men are telling exactly the same lie is damning.
So it isn't a misremembering or a misunderstanding. This is proven to be the case because Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash.
When Lovelady says both men ran down to where the limo slowed and stayed there for 5 minutes - Lie.
When Shelley says both men accompanied police officers down to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes - Lie.
When Lovelady says he didn't re-enter the TSBD for 15 to 20 minutes - Lie.
Above all, there is credible eye-witness testimony that Shelley and Lovelady are lying - Vicki Adams sees them on the first floor 30 - 60 seconds after the shooting.
if you think you have proven that Oswald could not have made his way from the 6th to 2nd floor unnoticed, and that casts doubt on his guilt, why not provide that information to the DPD instead of wasting time on the Internet?
You keep making this point and it's kind of creepy.
For the third or fourth time now - what I'm posting has absolutely nothing to do with the movements of Oswald.
What is it you're not understanding about that?
In your fantasy Oswald has somehow teleported down to the second floor. Jarman, Williams and Norman don't hear him moving on the wooden floor just above their heads. Jack Dougherty, who is literally stood by the stairs on the fifth floor, doesn't see or hear him descending. Garner (and other woman looking out of the west windows) don't see him walking by - remember, it's not just a question of him walking down the stairs, at each floor he has to walk about 15 feet across the floor itself to get to the top of the next flight of stairs.
But none of this proves that he wasn't on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. It just makes it very unlikely.
What proves it wasn't Oswald on the 6th floor is the 3 eye-witnesses (Rowland, Fischer and Roberts) who describe the man on the 6th floor wearing clothes Oswald didn't wear to work that day and didn't even own. Fischer and Roberts got a good look at the man and refused to identify him as Oswald (so did Brennan for that matter).
Detective F M Turner had this to say about Fischer and Roberts:
Mr. Turner: I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.
Mr. Belin: What do you have about them?
Mr. Turner: They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.
In their various testimonies both men state that the open-necked sports shirt was white. Oswald didn't own such a garment at the time of the assassination.
If the shooter was wearing clothes Oswald didn't own, then common sense dictates it wasn't Oswald.
Which is why Roberts, Fischer and Brennan refused to identify the man as Oswald.
Which is why Fischer thought the man on the 6th floor had a much lighter complexion than Oswald.
Which is why Brennan thought the man on the 6th floor was much older than Oswald.
Which is why Oswald was discovered on the second floor seconds after the assassination.
Which is why Oswald could see Jarman and Norman on the first floor of the TSBD building less than 5 minutes before the assassination.
Which is why Garner didn't see Oswald walking across the fourth floor.
Which is why Brennan saw the gunman still stood at the window at least 8 seconds after the shooting.
Which is why Oswald was already sipping a Coke when Baker burst in the second floor lunchroom.
But let's not stray from the topic at hand - the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams.
Her eye-witness testimony has Shelley and Lovelady towards the back of the first floor seconds after the shooting.
What were they doing there?
Why did they lie about their movements?
Other than the lies of Lovelady and Shelley, what evidence do you have that they weren't at the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination?
Dan, question: Where is the evidence that Oswald told the interrogators he talked with Shelley? I think this is a mistaken belief - I used to believe it - that's not supported by the evidence.
Fritz said this:
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Holmes also said that Oswald told him that he (Oswald) just left. Nothing about being told by Shelley. I am aware that Hosty's notes read something to the effect of "out with Shelley" but nothing about them talking. Am I missing an account that says this?
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Dan, question: Where is the evidence that Oswald told the interrogators he talked with Shelley? I think this is a mistaken belief - I used to believe it - that's not supported by the evidence.
Fritz said this:
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Holmes also said that Oswald told him that he (Oswald) just left. Nothing about being told by Shelley. I am aware that Hosty's notes read something to the effect of "out with Shelley" but nothing about them talking. Am I missing an account that says this?
Hi Steve, the bit about Shelley is covered in the James Bookhout report on the 25th:
"He thereafter went outside and stood for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."
It's also touched on in Fritz's notes:
"out with Bill Shelley in front"
It also comes up in Shelley's WC testimony:
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
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From post # 426
DM: "So let's imagine that he is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law.
Why on earth would he add the detail that he'd talked to Bill Shelley after the lunchroom incident and it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day? He saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview and Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knows that all they have to do is ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. Which they did. And Shelley denied it."
And Shelley denied it. Because it never happened, not because Shelley is not telling what you and you alone believe to be the truth.
Now how does this make Shelley a liar and Oswald is telling the truth?
Why did Oswald include Shelley as part of his alibi?
It's a simple question Jack, so what do you think?
The only rational reason Oswald would do this, in my opinion, is because he did talk to Shelley before he left the building.
If, as you believe, Oswald didn't talk to Shelley, why would he use him in his alibi? What is your sensible explanation for this?
And to be clear - Shelley denying he spoke to Oswald isn't what makes him a liar. Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar. This is from the post you completely ignored:
"...Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice."
Do you agree with this assessment? If you don't, what do you disagree with and why.
And while we're on the subject of proven liars, I see you're still peddling the lie about Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett.
For those not familiar with Jack's Lie, a few posts back Jack was insisting that statements made by Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett refuted Vicki Adams' testimony that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. Time after time after time Jack was asked to provide these statements and demonstrate how they refuted Adams' testimony. Obviously he refused to do so because no such statements exist but he continues to peddle the lie that they do exist.
Unbelievably, the sum total of Jack's accumulated evidence that "refutes" the testimony of Vicki Adams is a single statement made by Harkness.
This is how it 'works' - after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SXcGTTk/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
This is where things become difficult to believe.
For no given reason and with absolutely not a shred of evidence to back this up, Jack simply decides that the policeman that Adams and Styles run into is Harkness or one of the other officers he mentions. Jack simply plucks this identification out of thin air. Then his logic kicks in - well, if these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.
And that's it.
Seriously.
That is the sum total of Jack's "evidence".
A chimpanzee trying to crack open a nut with a rock uses superior logic.
The first thing to note is that Sawyer and Barnett don't come into. Neither man makes any kind of statement that has any bearing on Vicki's movements. In fact, Barnett completely undermines Jack's little fantasy as he points out that seconds after the shooting he runs down Houston Street, looks around the back of the building and sees at least one police officer already there. The officer that Barnett sees cannot be Harkness or his merry men. This must be the officer Adams and Styles run into.
The second thing to note is that Harkness doesn't make any kind of statement that relates to Vicki's movements. He simply says that he and two other officers go to the back of the building around 12:36pm. As has been said all along, not one of these officers makes any kind of statement relating to Vicki's movements. Jack knows this but he continues to peddle the lie that these officers refute Adams' timeline. This is Jack's Lie.
Just to demonstrate how poor Jack's use of logic is, let's take a closer look at his decision to identify the policeman Adams and Styles run into as Harkness (or one of his colleagues. Remember, Harkness never mentions anything about this encounter).
Jack's logic is that the officer they run into is part of the effort to lock down the building.
But there's a slight flaw - a building is locked down at the doors!
To control people entering and leaving the building, police officers must be stationed at the doors.
We see that at the front doors. The officers controlling people entering and leaving the building through the front doors are not stood around the corner of the building on Houston Street. They are not trying to do it from the railroad yard. They are stood at the doors. That's how a building is locked down.
Now look at the diagram above. The encounter with the officer occurs about 50ft away from the back door, around the side of the building.
What happens if someone comes out the back door and goes right onto Houston Street? How is this officer supposed to deal with that person?
And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.
And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.
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Why did Oswald include Shelley as part of his alibi?
It's a simple question Jack, so what do you think?
The only rational reason Oswald would do this, in my opinion, is because he did talk to Shelley before he left the building.
If, as you believe, Oswald didn't talk to Shelley, why would he use him in his alibi? What is your sensible explanation for this?
And to be clear - Shelley denying he spoke to Oswald isn't what makes him a liar. Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar. This is from the post you completely ignored:
"...Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice."
Do you agree with this assessment? If you don't, what do you disagree with and why.
And while we're on the subject of proven liars, I see you're still peddling the lie about Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett.
For those not familiar with Jack's Lie, a few posts back Jack was insisting that statements made by Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett refuted Vicki Adams' testimony that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. Time after time after time Jack was asked to provide these statements and demonstrate how they refuted Adams' testimony. Obviously he refused to do so because no such statements exist but he continues to peddle the lie that they do exist.
Unbelievably, the sum total of Jack's accumulated evidence that "refutes" the testimony of Vicki Adams is a single statement made by Harkness.
This is how it 'works' - after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SXcGTTk/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
This is where things become difficult to believe.
For no given reason and with absolutely not a shred of evidence to back this up, Jack simply decides that the policeman that Adams and Styles run into is Harkness or one of the other officers he mentions. Jack simply plucks this identification out of thin air. Then his logic kicks in - well, if these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.
And that's it.
Seriously.
That is the sum total of Jack's "evidence".
A chimpanzee trying to crack open a nut with a rock uses superior logic.
The first thing to note is that Sawyer and Barnett don't come into. Neither man makes any kind of statement that has any bearing on Vicki's movements. In fact, Barnett completely undermines Jack's little fantasy as he points out that seconds after the shooting he runs down Houston Street, looks around the back of the building and sees at least one police officer already there. The officer that Barnett sees cannot be Harkness or his merry men. This must be the officer Adams and Styles run into.
The second thing to note is that Harkness doesn't make any kind of statement that relates to Vicki's movements. He simply says that he and two other officers go to the back of the building around 12:36pm. As has been said all along, not one of these officers makes any kind of statement relating to Vicki's movements. Jack knows this but he continues to peddle the lie that these officers refute Adams' timeline. This is Jack's Lie.
Just to demonstrate how poor Jack's use of logic is, let's take a closer look at his decision to identify the policeman Adams and Styles run into as Harkness (or one of his colleagues. Remember, Harkness never mentions anything about this encounter).
Jack's logic is that the officer they run into is part of the effort to lock down the building.
But there's a slight flaw - a building is locked down at the doors!
To control people entering and leaving the building, police officers must be stationed at the doors.
We see that at the front doors. The officers controlling people entering and leaving the building through the front doors are not stood around the corner of the building on Houston Street. They are not trying to do it from the railroad yard. They are stood at the doors. That's how a building is locked down.
Now look at the diagram above. The encounter with the officer occurs about 50ft away from the back door, around the side of the building.
What happens if someone comes out the back door and goes right onto Houston Street? How is this officer supposed to deal with that person?
And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.
And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.
And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.
The irony is that the testimony of Sawyer shows beyond doubt that Nessan's fairytale is bogus. In his desperation, Nessan claims that Harkness (or one of the officers with him) "sealed off" the back of the building at 12.36, which he claims is the time the officer encountered Adams and Styles as they exited the building.
However, Sawyer says he arrived at the TSBD at 12.34 and parked his car near the front door. The first thing his did was run into the building to take the stairs up to the 4th floor. He looked around, found nothing and returned to the first floor. This firmly places Sawyer on the stairs at the time that Adams and Styles must have been using the stairs to go down to the alleged encounter with Harkness (or one of the officers with him). The only way that Sawyer could not have seen the women coming down the stairs was if they went down before 12.34, but that doesn't match with Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady 5 minutes after the shooting or an encounter with Harkness et all at 12.36.
What makes Nessan's claim completely impossible is that Styles was photographed standing near Sawyer's car (which didn't get there until 12.34) before going back into the building through the not yet sealed off front door (which happened at 12.36 or 12.37). So unless, Styles had magical powers that allowed her to be in two places at the same time, Nessan's fairytale is utterly debunked.
But I agree with you, Dan, this will not prevent him from telling the same lie over and over again. Thumb1:
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And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.
The irony is that the testimony of Sawyer shows beyond doubt that Nessan's fairytale is bogus. In his desperation, Nessan claims that Harkness (or one of the officers with him) "sealed off" the back of the building at 12.36, which he claims is the time the officer encountered Adams and Styles as they exited the building.
However, Sawyer says he arrived at the TSBD at 12.34 and parked his car near the front door. The first thing his did was run into the building to take the stairs up to the 4th floor. He looked around, found nothing and returned to the first floor. This firmly places Sawyer on the stairs at the time that Adams and Styles must have been using the stairs to go down to the alleged encounter with Harkness (or one of the officers with him). The only way that Sawyer could not have seen the women coming down the stairs was if they went down before 12.34, but that doesn't match with Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady 5 minutes after the shooting or an encounter with Harkness et all at 12.36.
What makes Nessan's claim completely impossible is that Styles was photographed standing near Sawyer's car (which didn't get there until 12.34) before going back into the building through the not yet sealed off front door (which happened at 12.36 or 12.37). So unless, Styles had magical powers that allowed her to be in two places at the same time, Nessan's fairytale is utterly debunked.
But I agree with you, Dan, this will not prevent him from telling the same lie over and over again. Thumb1:
I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier.
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Why did Oswald include Shelley as part of his alibi?
It's a simple question Jack, so what do you think?
The only rational reason Oswald would do this, in my opinion, is because he did talk to Shelley before he left the building.
If, as you believe, Oswald didn't talk to Shelley, why would he use him in his alibi? What is your sensible explanation for this?
And to be clear - Shelley denying he spoke to Oswald isn't what makes him a liar. Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar. This is from the post you completely ignored:
"...Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice."
Do you agree with this assessment? If you don't, what do you disagree with and why.
And while we're on the subject of proven liars, I see you're still peddling the lie about Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett.
For those not familiar with Jack's Lie, a few posts back Jack was insisting that statements made by Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett refuted Vicki Adams' testimony that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. Time after time after time Jack was asked to provide these statements and demonstrate how they refuted Adams' testimony. Obviously he refused to do so because no such statements exist but he continues to peddle the lie that they do exist.
Unbelievably, the sum total of Jack's accumulated evidence that "refutes" the testimony of Vicki Adams is a single statement made by Harkness.
This is how it 'works' - after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SXcGTTk/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
This is where things become difficult to believe.
For no given reason and with absolutely not a shred of evidence to back this up, Jack simply decides that the policeman that Adams and Styles run into is Harkness or one of the other officers he mentions. Jack simply plucks this identification out of thin air. Then his logic kicks in - well, if these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.
And that's it.
Seriously.
That is the sum total of Jack's "evidence".
A chimpanzee trying to crack open a nut with a rock uses superior logic.
The first thing to note is that Sawyer and Barnett don't come into. Neither man makes any kind of statement that has any bearing on Vicki's movements. In fact, Barnett completely undermines Jack's little fantasy as he points out that seconds after the shooting he runs down Houston Street, looks around the back of the building and sees at least one police officer already there. The officer that Barnett sees cannot be Harkness or his merry men. This must be the officer Adams and Styles run into.
The second thing to note is that Harkness doesn't make any kind of statement that relates to Vicki's movements. He simply says that he and two other officers go to the back of the building around 12:36pm. As has been said all along, not one of these officers makes any kind of statement relating to Vicki's movements. Jack knows this but he continues to peddle the lie that these officers refute Adams' timeline. This is Jack's Lie.
Just to demonstrate how poor Jack's use of logic is, let's take a closer look at his decision to identify the policeman Adams and Styles run into as Harkness (or one of his colleagues. Remember, Harkness never mentions anything about this encounter).
Jack's logic is that the officer they run into is part of the effort to lock down the building.
But there's a slight flaw - a building is locked down at the doors!
To control people entering and leaving the building, police officers must be stationed at the doors.
We see that at the front doors. The officers controlling people entering and leaving the building through the front doors are not stood around the corner of the building on Houston Street. They are not trying to do it from the railroad yard. They are stood at the doors. That's how a building is locked down.
Now look at the diagram above. The encounter with the officer occurs about 50ft away from the back door, around the side of the building.
What happens if someone comes out the back door and goes right onto Houston Street? How is this officer supposed to deal with that person?
And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.
And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.
In this whole lengthy misguided post, these are the only facts presented. Everything else is nothing more than your imaginative conjecture and your suspect opinion. You seem to understand the importance of both girls stating they were ordered back to the building by the cop, who was not in place until 12:36, but the significance of it seems have gone straight over your head.
“after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.”
“Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.”
“these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.”
“this officer ....orders Adams and Styles back inside the building”
You can actually read these facts, post them, but then go blank when it is time to understand them?
-----------------------------
Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar.
Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.
Oswald did bring Jarmin and Norman into his story but they have no recollection of him either.
Lock down is proven by both women, who stated they encountered the police behind the building and were told to return to the front. Too bad you weren’t there, you could have explained to the police the folly of their actions and you had a better way to do it. And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.
Wow, great use of the imagination. Harkness seems to think otherwise. Given he was the one who did it I am going to defer to Harkness as to what a lockdown is.
“And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.”
You have not shown anything. You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?
Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?
-
I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier.
So you do understand? Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought. Channeling Mitch Todd?
-
In this whole lengthy misguided post, these are the only facts presented. Everything else is nothing more than your imaginative conjecture and your suspect opinion. You seem to understand the importance of both girls stating they were ordered back to the building by the cop, who was not in place until 12:36, but the significance of it seems have gone straight over your head.
“after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.”
“Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.”
“these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.”
“this officer ....orders Adams and Styles back inside the building”
You can actually read these facts, post them, but then go blank when it is time to understand them?
???
It's only just dawned on me that you don't have a clue what's going on.
Earlier in this thread, where you didn't know who Gloria Calvery was or you thought the Darnell footage actually showed Baker entering the TSBD building, I thought you were employing underhand tactics to derail the arguments I was putting forward because you couldn't come up with any kind of counter-argument.
But that's not the case at all.
You simply don't know the evidence on a basic level and, worse than that, you have no concept of how to interpret that small amount of evidence you are aware of.
On top of that, you don't seem to notice the difference between 'evidence' and things you've just made up.
For example, your identification of Harkness as the officer who stops Adams and Styles from entering the railroad yard is completely made up. You don't seem to realise that this identification isn't backed up by anything. There is not a scrap of evidence to back it up. I think you've just convinced yourself it's a fact and you seem to expect others to treat it as a fact just because you do.
As crazy as this sounds, you seem to be saying this officer is preventing Adams and Styles from leaving the building!!
Do you see how crazy that suggestion is?
He's stood about 50ft away from the back door, how can he prevent anyone from leaving the building?
Adams and Styles completely ignore him. Instead of returning back the way they came, they just carry on walking around the building. Do you think this is part of the lock down?
Your identification of Harkness as the officer that Adams and Styles encounter is completely bananas.
And not only that, in order for you to uphold this delusional identification you have Adams, Styles and Garner as liars, you have to ignore the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.
Why accept real evidence when you can make up your own ::)
Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar.
Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.
Oswald did bring Jarmin and Norman into his story but they have no recollection of him either.
Lock down is proven by both women, who stated they encountered the police behind the building and were told to return to the front. Too bad you weren’t there, you could have explained to the police the folly of their actions and you had a better way to do it. And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.
Wow, great use of the imagination. Harkness seems to think otherwise. Given he was the one who did it I am going to defer to Harkness as to what a lockdown is.
“And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.”
You have not shown anything. You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?
Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?
Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.
Huh??
Nowhere have I said that Shelley told Oswald to go home.
I have to assume you're trying to say that Oswald didn't include Shelley as part of his alibi.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Are you trying to say that Oswald never referred to Shelley in his interrogation?
It's kind of difficult to know what you're actually trying to say.
Just in case this is yet another instance where you have no idea about the evidence.
This is from James Bookhout's report 11/25/63:
"He thereafter went outside and stood for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."
This incident is mentioned in Fritz's notes:
"out with Bill Shelley in front
lft wk opinion nothing to be done that day etc."
Ball is also aware of Oswald mentioning this incident and questions Shelley about it:
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?
Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?
Wow.
You really have no idea what's going on.
-
So you do understand? Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought. Channeling Mitch Todd?
So you do understand?
Yes Jack, I do understand.
I understand you have no idea what's actually going on.
Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought.
I'm going to reproduce the timeline I posted to show that there is not a single word in it that relates to the movements of Adams and Styles.
Not one single word.
There's no point in asking you what in the post shows that "the girls left later than they thought" because there isn't anything to point out.
You don't have a clue what's going on.
"I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier."
If there's any forum member who has a clue what Jack is talking about could they point it out.
-
???
It's only just dawned on me that you don't have a clue what's going on.
Earlier in this thread, where you didn't know who Gloria Calvery was or you thought the Darnell footage actually showed Baker entering the TSBD building, I thought you were employing underhand tactics to derail the arguments I was putting forward because you couldn't come up with any kind of counter-argument.
But that's not the case at all.
You simply don't know the evidence on a basic level and, worse than that, you have no concept of how to interpret that small amount of evidence you are aware of.
On top of that, you don't seem to notice the difference between 'evidence' and things you've just made up.
For example, your identification of Harkness as the officer who stops Adams and Styles from entering the railroad yard is completely made up. You don't seem to realise that this identification isn't backed up by anything. There is not a scrap of evidence to back it up. I think you've just convinced yourself it's a fact and you seem to expect others to treat it as a fact just because you do.
As crazy as this sounds, you seem to be saying this officer is preventing Adams and Styles from leaving the building!!
Do you see how crazy that suggestion is?
He's stood about 50ft away from the back door, how can he prevent anyone from leaving the building?
Adams and Styles completely ignore him. Instead of returning back the way they came, they just carry on walking around the building. Do you think this is part of the lock down?
Your identification of Harkness as the officer that Adams and Styles encounter is completely bananas.
And not only that, in order for you to uphold this delusional identification you have Adams, Styles and Garner as liars, you have to ignore the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.
Why accept real evidence when you can make up your own ::)
Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.
Huh??
Nowhere have I said that Shelley told Oswald to go home.
I have to assume you're trying to say that Oswald didn't include Shelley as part of his alibi.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Are you trying to say that Oswald never referred to Shelley in his interrogation?
It's kind of difficult to know what you're actually trying to say.
Just in case this is yet another instance where you have no idea about the evidence.
This is from James Bookhout's report 11/25/63:
"He thereafter went outside and stood for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."
This incident is mentioned in Fritz's notes:
"out with Bill Shelley in front
lft wk opinion nothing to be done that day etc."
Ball is also aware of Oswald mentioning this incident and questions Shelley about it:
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?
Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?
Wow.
You really have no idea what's going on.
he problem is your whole little theory has crapped out on you.
This issue was settled by the WC with the time stamps of the police involved decades ago. Not one point or analysis brought up by you has changed the understanding of Adams and Styles. Recently you have managed to reinforce it with Mitch Todd’s analysis.
D O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
postimages.org
In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
-----------
This is mind-boggling that you could be so confused by this problem. It is just simple math, and by simple, I mean a third-grade word problem.
I will post the math for you in case you are struggling with it.
Basic facts, an average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.
At 4mph = 352 feet per minute
At 3mph = 264 feet per minute
TSBD dimensions-- 80 feet x 80 feet
TSBD dock addition --40 feet
4th floor to 1st floor –40 feet
You have stated they encountered Sgt Harkness and his officers behind the TSBD at 12:36 as per his lockdown time stamp.
If Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor and then encounter Sgt Harkness and his men behind the TSBD at 12:36 and Adams and Styles had walked approximately a distance of 200 feet from the 4th floor window, at a 4mph pace, when did they leave the fourth-floor window? The average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.
Sgt Harkness, and because you have been struggling so badly with this, I will add that he had men with him, you would not think that would have to be stated but it seems necessary for you to understand, locked down the back of the building at 12:36 which resulted in the girls being told to return to the building. The distance from the 4th floor where the girls started from and where they met the police in the back is approximately 200 feet. At a 3mph walking gait it would not have taken them but about a minute to reach the back. They stated they ran.
A minute from 12:36 is 12:35.
The distance to return to the front is approximately 250 feet. At the leisurely pace of 3mph it would take a minute. Sawyer stated he locked down the front at 12:37. Now you are even stating he locked it down a minute later at 12:38. Either way it does not change what is known.
It is good to see you add something positive about Adams and Styles travels, see you can add something positive to the understanding of the movements of the girls, adding more time only helps the understanding.
Seeing Shelley and Lovelady on their travels only further confirms their later departure.
-
So you do understand?
Yes Jack, I do understand.
I understand you have no idea what's actually going on.
Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought.
I'm going to reproduce the timeline I posted to show that there is not a single word in it that relates to the movements of Adams and Styles.
Not one single word.
There's no point in asking you what in the post shows that "the girls left later than they thought" because there isn't anything to point out.
You don't have a clue what's going on.
"I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier."
If there's any forum member who has a clue what Jack is talking about could they point it out.
It all relates to their movements. That is what you do not want to admit, and with good reason. In the light of comparing their statements to the police statements a better understanding of when they left is understood. Thanks for helping with it.
-
he problem is your whole little theory has crapped out on you.
This issue was settled by the WC with the time stamps of the police involved decades ago. Not one point or analysis brought up by you has changed the understanding of Adams and Styles. Recently you have managed to reinforce it with Mitch Todd’s analysis.
D O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
postimages.org
In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
-----------
This is mind-boggling that you could be so confused by this problem. It is just simple math, and by simple, I mean a third-grade word problem.
I will post the math for you in case you are struggling with it.
Basic facts, an average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.
At 4mph = 352 feet per minute
At 3mph = 264 feet per minute
TSBD dimensions-- 80 feet x 80 feet
TSBD dock addition --40 feet
4th floor to 1st floor –40 feet
You have stated they encountered Sgt Harkness and his officers behind the TSBD at 12:36 as per his lockdown time stamp.
If Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor and then encounter Sgt Harkness and his men behind the TSBD at 12:36 and Adams and Styles had walked approximately a distance of 200 feet from the 4th floor window, at a 4mph pace, when did they leave the fourth-floor window? The average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.
Sgt Harkness, and because you have been struggling so badly with this, I will add that he had men with him, you would not think that would have to be stated but it seems necessary for you to understand, locked down the back of the building at 12:36 which resulted in the girls being told to return to the building. The distance from the 4th floor where the girls started from and where they met the police in the back is approximately 200 feet. At a 3mph walking gait it would not have taken them but about a minute to reach the back. They stated they ran.
A minute from 12:36 is 12:35.
The distance to return to the front is approximately 250 feet. At the leisurely pace of 3mph it would take a minute. Sawyer stated he locked down the front at 12:37. Now you are even stating he locked it down a minute later at 12:38. Either way it does not change what is known.
It is good to see you add something positive about Adams and Styles travels, see you can add something positive to the understanding of the movements of the girls, adding more time only helps the understanding.
Seeing Shelley and Lovelady on their travels only further confirms their later departure.
You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.
This issue was settled by the WC with the time stamps of the police involved decades ago.
The WC settled nothing. As I've explained elsewhere, the WC were complicit in fabricating a timeline that was specifically used to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams. This is from Reply#401:
Just to be clear, Jack's Lie isn't that Vicki waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor.
This is a Warren Commission Lie and, like a good little Nutter, Jack just regurgitates what the WC tells him to regurgitate.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question.
But this is not Jack's Lie.
Jack's Lie is that the testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett refutes the timeline of Adams - that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot.
The WC not only allowed the lies of Shelley and Lovelady to stand unchallenged, they used these lies to undermine Adams' testimony, even though the lies completely contradicted the Baker/Truly timeline ( a timeline that had been firmly established by the time Shelley and Lovelady had their hearings).
There is no point in asking you to explain how the WC could accept these lies which completely contradicted the, already established, timelines provided by the Baker/Truly timelines.
There's probably no point even asking you if you understand what's being said here.
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
D O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.
However, your identification of the officer who encountered Adams and Styles as Harkness is completely made up by you.
You have invented this identification. I don't know if you understand that.
It's not a fact.
It's a figment of your imagination.
You then reverse engineer the situation using this imaginary identification - if the officer is Harkness and he was there around 12:36pm then Adams and Styles encountered him around 12:36pm therefore they must have lied about what time they left the fourth floor. This is all a figment of your imagination.
I can't explain it in a simpler way.
There's no point in getting into the fact that somebody locking down the building would not be stood about 50 ft away from the door and round the corner of the building, in a position where they couldn't even see the door. I think that would be too much information for you to process.
You have stated they encountered Sgt Harkness and his officers behind the TSBD at 12:36 as per his lockdown time stamp.
Errr...no, Jack. I'm not the one saying Adams and Styles encountered Harkness around 12:36pm
That's you who is saying that.
Don't you remember? :-[
If Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor and then encounter Sgt Harkness and his men behind the TSBD at 12:36 and Adams and Styles had walked approximately a distance of 200 feet from the 4th floor window, at a 4mph pace, when did they leave the fourth-floor window? The average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.
Once again, your ignorance regarding the facts of this case is shocking.
Adams states over and over and over again that she ran:
Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS: I was running. We were running.
Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.
Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Yes.
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Your idea, that Adams just strolled down the stairs and out of the building, just shows how little you know about this aspect of the case.
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most". Given that she "ran to the railroad tracks", her encounter with the officer could have taken place within 60 seconds of the headshot. Remember, Barnett must have seen the same officer when he got to the back of the TSBD building seconds after the shooting.
TSBD dimensions-- 80 feet x 80 feet
Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.
Sgt Harkness, and because you have been struggling so badly with this, I will add that he had men with him, you would not think that would have to be stated but it seems necessary for you to understand, locked down the back of the building at 12:36 which resulted in the girls being told to return to the building. The distance from the 4th floor where the girls started from and where they met the police in the back is approximately 200 feet.
Yet again, you are unaware of the basics.
Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them. There is never any mention of multiple officers.
Just do some basic research. You really are making a fool of yourself.
-
You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.
Thumb1:
You've reached the same conclusion as I did, some time ago.
I'm just not sure if Nessan is confusing matters on purpose or if he truly doesn't (want to) understand what he is being told, but either way, it's a waste of time to talk to him.
You will never get him to understand or accept that it wasn't and couldn't have been Harkness or one of the men with him who encountered Adams and Styles, because it simply does not fit with the known facts.
-
You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.The WC settled nothing. As I've explained elsewhere, the WC were complicit in fabricating a timeline that was specifically used to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams. This is from Reply#401:
Just to be clear, Jack's Lie isn't that Vicki waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor.
This is a Warren Commission Lie and, like a good little Nutter, Jack just regurgitates what the WC tells him to regurgitate.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question.
But this is not Jack's Lie.
Jack's Lie is that the testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett refutes the timeline of Adams - that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot.
The WC not only allowed the lies of Shelley and Lovelady to stand unchallenged, they used these lies to undermine Adams' testimony, even though the lies completely contradicted the Baker/Truly timeline ( a timeline that had been firmly established by the time Shelley and Lovelady had their hearings).
There is no point in asking you to explain how the WC could accept these lies which completely contradicted the, already established, timelines provided by the Baker/Truly timelines.
There's probably no point even asking you if you understand what's being said here.
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.
However, your identification of the officer who encountered Adams and Styles as Harkness is completely made up by you.
You have invented this identification. I don't know if you understand that.
It's not a fact.
It's a figment of your imagination.
You then reverse engineer the situation using this imaginary identification - if the officer is Harkness and he was there around 12:36pm then Adams and Styles encountered him around 12:36pm therefore they must have lied about what time they left the fourth floor. This is all a figment of your imagination.
I can't explain it in a simpler way.
There's no point in getting into the fact that somebody locking down the building would not be stood about 50 ft away from the door and round the corner of the building, in a position where they couldn't even see the door. I think that would be too much information for you to process.
Errr...no, Jack. I'm not the one saying Adams and Styles encountered Harkness around 12:36pm
That's you who is saying that.
Don't you remember? :-[
Once again, your ignorance regarding the facts of this case is shocking.
Adams states over and over and over again that she ran:
Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS: I was running. We were running.
Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.
Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Yes.
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Your idea, that Adams just strolled down the stairs and out of the building, just shows how little you know about this aspect of the case.
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most". Given that she "ran to the railroad tracks", her encounter with the officer could have taken place within 60 seconds of the headshot. Remember, Barnett must have seen the same officer when he got to the back of the TSBD building seconds after the shooting.
Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.
Yet again, you are unaware of the basics.
Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them. There is never any mention of multiple officers.
Just do some basic research. You really are making a fool of yourself.
Just a whole lot of nothing again. All just your opinion and conjecture. Everyone is lying. Not one person telling the truth but you. You and only you know what the truth is.
Maybe a recap is in order. You presented two photos as proof of something only, there was no proof of anything in the photos other than an overactive imagination. Shelley and Lovelady, to fit into this storyline are sprinting all over the place. Not because it makes any sense at all, but because that is the only way they can fit into this strange storyline.
Here are the known facts;
DO: “Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm”
DO: “Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.”
Styles reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.
Detective Sawyer states the front door was locked down by 13:37. Styles reenters the building by the front door and Adams tries to reenter a few minutes later and is stopped.
From where the encounter with the officer took place at the back of the building and the subsequent walk back to the front door is approximately 250 feet.
It is just math. No need to be afraid.
At 4mph = 352 feet per minute
At 3mph = 264 feet per minute
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.
Styles walks into the front door and Adams is locked out.
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most".
Not according to Barnett who saw no-one behind the building.
Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.
Basic is right. No, it is really 100x110 feet, N and S is longer.
There is a scale on the drawings
I should have just measured it myself the first time. Given what has gone on in this thread I am guessing the 80 x80 is probably one of your old, uninformed posts.
Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them.
So is Styles. You are honestly insinuating that the officers were walking in a group?
And now you believe Adams and Styles are lying too?
Adams and Styles did not leave as quickly as they thought. The officer time stamps prove that. Seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevator 5 minutes after the last shot prove that.
-
Thumb1:
You've reached the same conclusion as I did, some time ago.
I'm just not sure if Nessan is confusing matters on purpose or if he truly doesn't (want to) understand what he is being told, but either way, it's a waste of time to talk to him.
You will never get him to understand or accept that it wasn't and couldn't have been Harkness or one of the men with him who encountered Adams and Styles, because it simply does not fit with the known facts.
I thought there might be some way in engaging him in some kind of reasoned debate but it's turned out to be more like helping a doddering old man across the road.
His latest post is a continuation of his toothless dribbling.
I don't know what I was thinking. ::)
-
I thought there might be some way in engaging him in some kind of reasoned debate but it's turned out to be more like helping a doddering old man across the road.
His latest post is a continuation of his toothless dribbling.
I don't know what I was thinking. ::)
Obviously, the problem is you don't think, or you would not be posting this fantasy Adams -Styles tripe as if you have accomplished some great service to the understanding of the JFK assassination. In the end it is just simple math.
-
Just a whole lot of nothing again. All just your opinion and conjecture. Everyone is lying. Not one person telling the truth but you. You and only you know what the truth is.
Since I started looking into the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams the only people who have been shown, beyond reasonable doubt, to be lying are William Shelley, Billy Lovelady and you.
In your 'theory' (::)), which is based on nothing but your bizarre identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles bumped into, you have Adams, Styles, Garner, Baker and Truly as liars. The Dillard picture is a lie and the Stroud document is wrong.
All because you insist it is Harkness that Adams and Styles bump into.
Now, maybe I'm underestimating you - maybe you do have good evidence that this officer is Harkness.
What is your evidence that this officer is Harkness? (don't bother trying to duck this question)
Maybe a recap is in order. You presented two photos as proof of something only, there was no proof of anything in the photos other than an overactive imagination. Shelley and Lovelady, to fit into this storyline are sprinting all over the place. Not because it makes any sense at all, but because that is the only way they can fit into this strange storyline.
Here are the known facts;
DO: “Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm”
DO: “Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.”
Styles reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.
Detective Sawyer states the front door was locked down by 13:37. Styles reenters the building by the front door and Adams tries to reenter a few minutes later and is stopped.
You forgot the bit where you made up the Harkness identification.
You forgot the bit where the officer in question was stood about 50ft away from the door he was supposed to be guarding.
You forgot the bit where this officer was around the corner of the building and couldn't even see the door he was supposed to be guarding.
You forgot the bit where Adams and Styles completely ignored his orders and wandered off in the opposite direction.
You really are very forgetful.
From where the encounter with the officer took place at the back of the building and the subsequent walk back to the front door is approximately 250 feet.
It is just math. No need to be afraid.
At 4mph = 352 feet per minute
At 3mph = 264 feet per minute
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.
Styles walks into the front door and Adams is locked out.
Meaningless drivel
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most".
Not according to Barnett who saw no-one behind the building.
As usual you are completely wrong. He saw at least one other officer around the back.
It's interesting that in the Lost Interview, Vicki mentions seeing a cop stood on Houston street looking elsewhere. It would appear she saw Barnett but he didn't see her.
Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.
Basic is right. No, it is really 100x110 feet, N and S is longer.
There is a scale on the drawings
From the Texas State Historical Association website:
TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY.The Texas School Book Depository, the building identified by the Warren Commission's report on the Kennedy assassination as the location from which Lee Harvey Oswald shot the president, is at 411 Elm Street in downtown Dallas and is now the Dallas County Administration Building. The building has seven floors and a basement and forms a 100 by 100 foot square with 80,000 square feet of space.
Do some research.
I should have just measured it myself the first time. Given what has gone on in this thread I am guessing the 80 x80 is probably one of your old, uninformed posts.
??
It's you who came up with the 80 x 80 nonsense.
Don't you remember?
It was only a couple of posts ago.
Is your memory really that bad.
At least you referred your own nonsense as "uninformed". That's the only accurate thing you've posted on this thread and it describes you perfectly.
Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them.
So is Styles. You are honestly insinuating that the officers were walking in a group?
And now you believe Adams and Styles are lying too?
Adams and Styles did not leave as quickly as they thought. The officer time stamps prove that. Seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevator 5 minutes after the last shot prove that.
??
It's you who is saying the officers are together, not me!
Don't you remember?
It was only a couple of posts ago.
Is your memory really that bad?
Are you having a deja vu moment?
At no point in any of your posts have you taken on a single argument I've made other than to just babble your nothing opinion.
I've presented a massive amount of evidence and arguments emanating from that evidence to demonstrate that Adams was telling the truth and that Shelley and Lovelady were lying.
You have offered nothing in the way of a coherent, reasoned response.
You can't explain why Adams and Styles aren't in the window of the Dillard picture.
You can't explain the Stroud document.
You can't explain how the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady completely contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials.
You can't explain why Oswald included Shelley in his alibi.
You lie about Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett making statements that refute Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds, supported by Styles and Garner.
And you can only offer the useless identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles encountered based on nothing more than your own limited imagination. That's all you've got.
Do some research. Come up with some actual evidence.
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Since I started looking into the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams the only people who have been shown, beyond reasonable doubt, to be lying are William Shelley, Billy Lovelady and you.
In your 'theory' (::)), which is based on nothing but your bizarre identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles bumped into, you have Adams, Styles, Garner, Baker and Truly as liars. The Dillard picture is a lie and the Stroud document is wrong.
All because you insist it is Harkness that Adams and Styles bump into.
Now, maybe I'm underestimating you - maybe you do have good evidence that this officer is Harkness.
What is your evidence that this officer is Harkness? (don't bother trying to duck this question)
You forgot the bit where you made up the Harkness identification.
You forgot the bit where the officer in question was stood about 50ft away from the door he was supposed to be guarding.
You forgot the bit where this officer was around the corner of the building and couldn't even see the door he was supposed to be guarding.
You forgot the bit where Adams and Styles completely ignored his orders and wandered off in the opposite direction.
You really are very forgetful.
Meaningless drivel
As usual you are completely wrong. He saw at least one other officer around the back.
It's interesting that in the Lost Interview, Vicki mentions seeing a cop stood on Houston street looking elsewhere. It would appear she saw Barnett but he didn't see her.
From the Texas State Historical Association website:
TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY.The Texas School Book Depository, the building identified by the Warren Commission's report on the Kennedy assassination as the location from which Lee Harvey Oswald shot the president, is at 411 Elm Street in downtown Dallas and is now the Dallas County Administration Building. The building has seven floors and a basement and forms a 100 by 100 foot square with 80,000 square feet of space.
Do some research.
??
It's you who came up with the 80 x 80 nonsense.
Don't you remember?
It was only a couple of posts ago.
Is your memory really that bad.
At least you referred your own nonsense as "uninformed". That's the only accurate thing you've posted on this thread and it describes you perfectly.
??
It's you who is saying the officers are together, not me!
Don't you remember?
It was only a couple of posts ago.
Is your memory really that bad?
Are you having a deja vu moment?
At no point in any of your posts have you taken on a single argument I've made other than to just babble your nothing opinion.
I've presented a massive amount of evidence and arguments emanating from that evidence to demonstrate that Adams was telling the truth and that Shelley and Lovelady were lying.
You have offered nothing in the way of a coherent, reasoned response.
You can't explain why Adams and Styles aren't in the window of the Dillard picture.
You can't explain the Stroud document.
You can't explain how the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady completely contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials.
You can't explain why Oswald included Shelley in his alibi.
You lie about Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett making statements that refute Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds, supported by Styles and Garner.
And you can only offer the useless identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles encountered based on nothing more than your own limited imagination. That's all you've got.
Do some research. Come up with some actual evidence.
Since I started looking into the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams the only people who have been shown, beyond reasonable doubt,
“Looking into” You are really being kind to yourself. You just brought a preconceived notion based on a photo and have been force fitting the known information ever since.
The answer has not changed. The girls did not leave when they thought. The reason this is known is the time stamps tell a different story. You can ignore the timestamps all you want, but your storyline does not work and the evidence supposedly supporting it is just flat-out made-up nonsense. Nothing but one endless hypothetical brain fart. Garbage in, garbage out.
Because this theory is as broken as it gets. Apparently, now Harkness is an issue, but only because the rest of this nonsense just does not add up, and his timestamp ends this theory by his testimony alone. It makes no difference who the girls encounter, feel free to have the girls encounter whoever you want but just make sure it was at the proper time of 12:36. All Harkness did was assemble some men and lockdown the back. If you want Harkness to be the officer they encounter good for you. The rest of this is just all you. The women encountered Harkness and the police officers stationed in the back. Get over it.
The flaws in your theory are obvious.
Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvery and then sprinting back into the building and somehow get ahead of Truly and Baker who they witness going into the building
Truly and Baker entering the building while Shelley and Lovelady are still outside.
The girls supposedly encountering the police in the back before Harkness states they are stationed there at 12:36
Not encountering Barnett or being seen by him, who also raced to the back of the building and was standing in the back
From start to finish would take no more than 2 minutes to traverse the building and be back at the front door, making Adams whole statement and her being turned away at the front door a red flag in your story.
-----------------
In the end the time stamps of the police confirm the movements of Adams and Styles.
You can have all the “what if” brain farts you want but there are always logic flaws or timing issues that make what you are trying to create untenable and make them moot. The timing of this storyline of an immediate departure does not work. Claiming everyone is lying is standard for your failed ideas. Especially given the girls did not see anyone of importance and LHO admitted to the encounter on the 2nd floor.
If he was coming up as conspiracy people believe instead of coming down like his Holmes statement, Adams and Styles should have encountered him.
Once again opinion brain farts are presented as facts.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
----------------------------
You can't explain why Adams and Styles aren't in the window of the Dillard picture.
You can't explain the Stroud document.
You can't explain how the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady completely contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials.
You can't explain why Oswald included Shelley in his alibi.
You lie about Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett making statements that refute Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds, supported by Styles and Garner.
And you can only offer the useless identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles encountered based on nothing more than your own limited imagination. That's all you've got.
Do some research. Come up with some actual evidence.
You call what you are doing is research? Coming up with hypothetical scenarios and then convincing yourself they are real by calling everyone liars and ignoring the real facts. If you cannot explain the time stamps and the correlations between the girls and the police you have done nothing but waste time. Here is the bad news you have not. Your "look" at the evidence has shown the opposite, that all this hypothetical guessing has yielded no answer.
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Since I started looking into the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams the only people who have been shown, beyond reasonable doubt,
“Looking into” You are really being kind to yourself. You just brought a preconceived notion based on a photo and have been force fitting the known information ever since.
This is the very first sentence I posted when I became aware of the "Lost Interview". It's from Reply#314:
"This interview is quite an eye-opener and certainly contradicts my own thinking on this aspect of the case."
I most certainly did not bring a preconceived notion to this aspect of the case. I had a completely different idea about it.
On the contrary, it's you who has brought an idiotic preconceived notion that it was Harkness that the girls encountered 50ft away from the back door and around the corner of the building.
You have been asked to provide evidence to support your dizzy notion that this officer is Harkness. As usual, you have provided nothing other than your insistence that it must be him because, in your own deluded mind, there were no other police officers around the back of the building before Harkness.
You have zero grasp of the evidence involved in this aspect of the case.
Your ignorance has been shown up time and time and time again.
The answer has not changed. The girls did not leave when they thought. The reason this is known is the time stamps tell a different story. You can ignore the timestamps all you want, but your storyline does not work and the evidence supposedly supporting it is just flat-out made-up nonsense. Nothing but one endless hypothetical brain fart. Garbage in, garbage out.
Because this theory is as broken as it gets. Apparently, now Harkness is an issue, but only because the rest of this nonsense just does not add up, and his timestamp ends this theory by his testimony alone. It makes no difference who the girls encounter, feel free to have the girls encounter whoever you want but just make sure it was at the proper time of 12:36. All Harkness did was assemble some men and lockdown the back. If you want Harkness to be the officer they encounter good for you. The rest of this is just all you. The women encountered Harkness and the police officers stationed in the back. Get over it.
The flaws in your theory are obvious.
Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvery and then sprinting back into the building and somehow get ahead of Truly and Baker who they witness going into the building
Truly and Baker entering the building while Shelley and Lovelady are still outside.
The girls supposedly encountering the police in the back before Harkness states they are stationed there at 12:36
Not encountering Barnett or being seen by him, who also raced to the back of the building and was standing in the back
From start to finish would take no more than 2 minutes to traverse the building and be back at the front door, making Adams whole statement and her being turned away at the front door a red flag in your story.
-----------------
In the end the time stamps of the police confirm the movements of Adams and Styles.
You can have all the “what if” brain farts you want but there are always logic flaws or timing issues that make what you are trying to create untenable and make them moot. The timing of this storyline of an immediate departure does not work. Claiming everyone is lying is standard for your failed ideas. Especially given the girls did not see anyone of importance and LHO admitted to the encounter on the 2nd floor.
If he was coming up as conspiracy people believe instead of coming down like his Holmes statement, Adams and Styles should have encountered him.
Once again opinion brain farts are presented as facts.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
----------------------------
You can't explain why Adams and Styles aren't in the window of the Dillard picture.
You can't explain the Stroud document.
You can't explain how the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady completely contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials.
You can't explain why Oswald included Shelley in his alibi.
You lie about Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett making statements that refute Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds, supported by Styles and Garner.
And you can only offer the useless identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles encountered based on nothing more than your own limited imagination. That's all you've got.
Do some research. Come up with some actual evidence.
You call what you are doing is research? Coming up with hypothetical scenarios and then convincing yourself they are real by calling everyone liars and ignoring the real facts. If you cannot explain the time stamps and the correlations between the girls and the police you have done nothing but waste time. Here is the bad news you have not. Your "look" at the evidence has shown the opposite, that all this hypothetical guessing has yielded no answer.
The usual meaningless waffle but at least you've outlined what you believe are the weaknesses with the arguments I've put forward.
This can be the starting point for a rational, reasoned debate Thumb1:
I can defend my arguments against your critique and also outline what I believe are the real weaknesses with your "theory". In turn you can counter my defence against your criticisms and defend your own theory against my critique of it.
And that way we can have an adult discussion about this issue.
So, let's have a look at the weaknesses as you perceive them:
The flaws in your theory are obvious.
Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvery and then sprinting back into the building and somehow get ahead of Truly and Baker who they witness going into the building
Truly and Baker entering the building while Shelley and Lovelady are still outside.
The girls supposedly encountering the police in the back before Harkness states they are stationed there at 12:36
Not encountering Barnett or being seen by him, who also raced to the back of the building and was standing in the back
From start to finish would take no more than 2 minutes to traverse the building and be back at the front door, making Adams whole statement and her being turned away at the front door a red flag in your story.
Basically, you have five points of criticism.
Before dealing with them I should clarify the theory I'm putting forward.
It is based on Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot:
"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."
Before the limo had reached the underpass Adams decided to get downstairs and find out what was going on. Adams and Styles immediately ran all the way down to the railroad track where they were stopped by a police officer. This is why we don't see Adams or Styles in the Dillard picture. Seconds earlier they had been watching the motorcade from the window. In the pic below the woman looking out of the window can be seen from her knees upwards, if Adams and Styles were anywhere near the window they would be easily visible but they are nowhere to be seen. The Dillard pic is taken about 11 seconds after the last shot, just as the limo has exited from the underpass. It confirms Adams statement that she was on her way before the limo reached the underpass:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have ran to the first floor within 35 - 40 seconds of the last shot. In her WC testimony Adams states she was on the first floor in less than a minute. In the Lost Interview she states she was down on the first floor within 30 to 60 seconds.
Adams and Styles have reached the first floor and exited through the back door before Truly and Baker have reached the area near the elevators on the first floor. This is confirmed by the Stroud document. The only possible way the Stroud document makes sense is if Adams and Styles leave immediately, race down the stairs and exit the building before Truly and Baker ascend the same stairs. It's the only way that Adams and Styles go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up without either pair seeing the other.
When Adams reaches the first floor she sees Shelley and Lovelady there. She calls out to them but gets no response:
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
If we accept Adams' version of events we find the following situation - 30 to 60 seconds after the last shot Adams and Styles reach the first floor and find Shelley and Lovelady there. Adams and Styles exit through the back door and seconds later Truly and Baker arrive in the same area. If this is the case then both sets of men must be in the same area at the same time. This appears to be confirmed by Baker's observation of two white men stood in the area when he and Truly arrived there:
Mr. Baker: On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. Dulles: Were they white men?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.
The diagram below represents the situation above,
The red line shows the route Adams and Styles took when they reached the first floor.
The red star is the area they encountered the police officer (note, it is impossible to see the back door from this area).
The red circle is the area Shelley and Lovelady are stood when Adams calls out to them.
We know Shelley and Lovelady were on the front steps when the shooting occurred (the blue circle) and it is from this area they make their way to the back of the first floor. The blue line is an approximation of their route.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqYYRnpH/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This is the theory I'm putting forward based on Adams' testimony and it couldn't be more simple.
After the shooting Shelley and Lovelady make their way to the back of the first floor of the TSBD building.
That's it.
Nothing miraculous.
Nothing fantastical.
Two men simply make their way from the front steps to the area near the elevators.
What is so difficult to understand about it?
This brings us to the first "flaws" Jack has put forward that undermine this theory:
Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvery and then sprinting back into the building and somehow get ahead of Truly and Baker who they witness going into the building
Truly and Baker entering the building while Shelley and Lovelady are still outside.
How do Shelley and Lovelady make it past Baker and Truly to arrive at the area near the elevators before Baker and Truly do?
The short answer is that they simply walk past Baker while he is talking to Truly in the lobby.
It really is that simple.
Why Jack is having a hard time getting his head around that is anyone's guess.
In Reply#403 I reconstruct the seconds after the assassination using the Darnell footage. It culminates in this series of identifications:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This image, taken from the Darnell footage, occurs approximately 20 - 25 seconds after the assassination.
In it we see Baker approaching the front steps. Lovelady is on the steps listening to an incredibly distressed Gloria Calvery telling everyone about JFK being shot. Shelley is stood near the bottom of the steps having just returned from the concrete 'spur' after running into Gloria.
Of the four men, Truly is stood furthest away from the front door.
As the seconds roll on from this point Baker makes his way up the steps and enters the lobby closely followed by Shelley and Lovelady. Baker makes the point that other people enter the lobby with him:
Mr. Belin: What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. Baker: As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. Belin: All right.
Mr. Baker: And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
The "people going in" with Baker are Shelley and Lovelady. Baker is trying to find out how to get to up the building and Truly shows up. Truly and Baker have a short conversation.
While Baker is trying to find out where the stairs or elevator are and while he is talking to Truly, Shelley and Lovelady simply walk quickly by him and enter the main work space of the first floor before Truly and Baker do.
Shelley and Lovelady are only a few seconds ahead of Baker and Truly but it is during these few seconds that Adams and Styles run by.
There is nothing difficult to understand about this, nothing miraculous is happening.
The girls supposedly encountering the police in the back before Harkness states they are stationed there at 12:36
This is Jack's third "flaw".
His assumption is that there are no police officers in the area around the back of the TSBD building until 12:36pm, when Harkness and a couple of other officers start to lock down the back of the building. This is wrong.
From Welcome Barnett's WC testimony:
"So since ,this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape."
Within two minutes of the assassination, Barnett has made his way to the back of the building and noticed a police presence there. It is completely wrong, not to mention quite baffling, to assume there were no other officers near the back door before Harkness. Barnett proves this is wrong and he also provides evidence supporting Adams assertion that there was an officer in this area seconds after the assassination.
Not encountering Barnett or being seen by him, who also raced to the back of the building and was standing in the back
Jack's fourth "flaw".
Firstly, there is absolutely no reason why Adams and Styles would have "encountered" Barnett. He was on Houston Street, Adams and Styles were not.
Interestingly, in the Lost Interview, Adams refers to seeing a police officer on Houston Street after she exited the back door.
It must be remembered that Barnett's total focus was on the roofline of the building and, in particular, the fire escape on Houston Street. Barnett makes the specific point that he paid very little attention to the area around the back door:
Mr. Liebeler: There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett: It is around the corner from Houston Street.
Mr. Liebeler: Did you go in the building?
Mr. Barnett: No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.
I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down .
It isn't really that surprising Barnett didn't see Adams and Styles around the back of the TSBD building. He was focused on the fire escape on Houston Street.
From start to finish would take no more than 2 minutes to traverse the building and be back at the front door, making Adams whole statement and her being turned away at the front door a red flag in your story.
This is Jack's fifth and final "flaw".
To be honest, I don't even know what it means.
I agree it would have taken 2 minutes to make it round to the front of the building.
Styles walked straight back into the building unchallenged. Adams didn't decide to go back in until she heard the 12:38pm transmission referring to the second floor. Jack doesn't seem to appreciate that Adams was out front trying to discover what happened. She talks about a conversation with Avery Davies and listening to the police radio.
Jack's "flaws" seem really weak and are easily dealt with. There is nothing that undermines the theory I'm putting forward.
Maybe I'm missing something.
We'll see.
-
This is the very first sentence I posted when I became aware of the "Lost Interview". It's from Reply#314:
"This interview is quite an eye-opener and certainly contradicts my own thinking on this aspect of the case."
I most certainly did not bring a preconceived notion to this aspect of the case. I had a completely different idea about it.
On the contrary, it's you who has brought an idiotic preconceived notion that it was Harkness that the girls encountered 50ft away from the back door and around the corner of the building.
You have been asked to provide evidence to support your dizzy notion that this officer is Harkness. As usual, you have provided nothing other than your insistence that it must be him because, in your own deluded mind, there were no other police officers around the back of the building before Harkness.
You have zero grasp of the evidence involved in this aspect of the case.
Your ignorance has been shown up time and time and time again.
The usual meaningless waffle but at least you've outlined what you believe are the weaknesses with the arguments I've put forward.
This can be the starting point for a rational, reasoned debate Thumb1:
I can defend my arguments against your critique and also outline what I believe are the real weaknesses with your "theory". In turn you can counter my defence against your criticisms and defend your own theory against my critique of it.
And that way we can have an adult discussion about this issue.
So, let's have a look at the weaknesses as you perceive them:
The flaws in your theory are obvious.
Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvery and then sprinting back into the building and somehow get ahead of Truly and Baker who they witness going into the building
Truly and Baker entering the building while Shelley and Lovelady are still outside.
The girls supposedly encountering the police in the back before Harkness states they are stationed there at 12:36
Not encountering Barnett or being seen by him, who also raced to the back of the building and was standing in the back
From start to finish would take no more than 2 minutes to traverse the building and be back at the front door, making Adams whole statement and her being turned away at the front door a red flag in your story.
Basically, you have five points of criticism.
Before dealing with them I should clarify the theory I'm putting forward.
It is based on Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot:
"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."
Before the limo had reached the underpass Adams decided to get downstairs and find out what was going on. Adams and Styles immediately ran all the way down to the railroad track where they were stopped by a police officer. This is why we don't see Adams or Styles in the Dillard picture. Seconds earlier they had been watching the motorcade from the window. In the pic below the woman looking out of the window can be seen from her knees upwards, if Adams and Styles were anywhere near the window they would be easily visible but they are nowhere to be seen. The Dillard pic is taken about 11 seconds after the last shot, just as the limo has exited from the underpass. It confirms Adams statement that she was on her way before the limo reached the underpass:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have ran to the first floor within 35 - 40 seconds of the last shot. In her WC testimony Adams states she was on the first floor in less than a minute. In the Lost Interview she states she was down on the first floor within 30 to 60 seconds.
Adams and Styles have reached the first floor and exited through the back door before Truly and Baker have reached the area near the elevators on the first floor. This is confirmed by the Stroud document. The only possible way the Stroud document makes sense is if Adams and Styles leave immediately, race down the stairs and exit the building before Truly and Baker ascend the same stairs. It's the only way that Adams and Styles go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up without either pair seeing the other.
When Adams reaches the first floor she sees Shelley and Lovelady there. She calls out to them but gets no response:
"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."
If we accept Adams' version of events we find the following situation - 30 to 60 seconds after the last shot Adams and Styles reach the first floor and find Shelley and Lovelady there. Adams and Styles exit through the back door and seconds later Truly and Baker arrive in the same area. If this is the case then both sets of men must be in the same area at the same time. This appears to be confirmed by Baker's observation of two white men stood in the area when he and Truly arrived there:
Mr. Baker: On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. Dulles: Were they white men?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.
The diagram below represents the situation above,
The red line shows the route Adams and Styles took when they reached the first floor.
The red star is the area they encountered the police officer (note, it is impossible to see the back door from this area).
The red circle is the area Shelley and Lovelady are stood when Adams calls out to them.
We know Shelley and Lovelady were on the front steps when the shooting occurred (the blue circle) and it is from this area they make their way to the back of the first floor. The blue line is an approximation of their route.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqYYRnpH/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This is the theory I'm putting forward based on Adams' testimony and it couldn't be more simple.
After the shooting Shelley and Lovelady make their way to the back of the first floor of the TSBD building.
That's it.
Nothing miraculous.
Nothing fantastical.
Two men simply make their way from the front steps to the area near the elevators.
What is so difficult to understand about it?
This brings us to the first "flaws" Jack has put forward that undermine this theory:
Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvery and then sprinting back into the building and somehow get ahead of Truly and Baker who they witness going into the building
Truly and Baker entering the building while Shelley and Lovelady are still outside.
How do Shelley and Lovelady make it past Baker and Truly to arrive at the area near the elevators before Baker and Truly do?
The short answer is that they simply walk past Baker while he is talking to Truly in the lobby.
It really is that simple.
Why Jack is having a hard time getting his head around that is anyone's guess.
In Reply#403 I reconstruct the seconds after the assassination using the Darnell footage. It culminates in this series of identifications:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This image, taken from the Darnell footage, occurs approximately 20 - 25 seconds after the assassination.
In it we see Baker approaching the front steps. Lovelady is on the steps listening to an incredibly distressed Gloria Calvery telling everyone about JFK being shot. Shelley is stood near the bottom of the steps having just returned from the concrete 'spur' after running into Gloria.
Of the four men, Truly is stood furthest away from the front door.
As the seconds roll on from this point Baker makes his way up the steps and enters the lobby closely followed by Shelley and Lovelady. Baker makes the point that other people enter the lobby with him:
Mr. Belin: What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. Baker: As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. Belin: All right.
Mr. Baker: And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
The "people going in" with Baker are Shelley and Lovelady. Baker is trying to find out how to get to up the building and Truly shows up. Truly and Baker have a short conversation.
While Baker is trying to find out where the stairs or elevator are and while he is talking to Truly, Shelley and Lovelady simply walk quickly by him and enter the main work space of the first floor before Truly and Baker do.
Shelley and Lovelady are only a few seconds ahead of Baker and Truly but it is during these few seconds that Adams and Styles run by.
There is nothing difficult to understand about this, nothing miraculous is happening.
The girls supposedly encountering the police in the back before Harkness states they are stationed there at 12:36
This is Jack's third "flaw".
His assumption is that there are no police officers in the area around the back of the TSBD building until 12:36pm, when Harkness and a couple of other officers start to lock down the back of the building. This is wrong.
From Welcome Barnett's WC testimony:
"So since ,this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape."
Within two minutes of the assassination, Barnett has made his way to the back of the building and noticed a police presence there. It is completely wrong, not to mention quite baffling, to assume there were no other officers near the back door before Harkness. Barnett proves this is wrong and he also provides evidence supporting Adams assertion that there was an officer in this area seconds after the assassination.
Not encountering Barnett or being seen by him, who also raced to the back of the building and was standing in the back
Jack's fourth "flaw".
Firstly, there is absolutely no reason why Adams and Styles would have "encountered" Barnett. He was on Houston Street, Adams and Styles were not.
Interestingly, in the Lost Interview, Adams refers to seeing a police officer on Houston Street after she exited the back door.
It must be remembered that Barnett's total focus was on the roofline of the building and, in particular, the fire escape on Houston Street. Barnett makes the specific point that he paid very little attention to the area around the back door:
Mr. Liebeler: There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett: It is around the corner from Houston Street.
Mr. Liebeler: Did you go in the building?
Mr. Barnett: No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.
I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down .
It isn't really that surprising Barnett didn't see Adams and Styles around the back of the TSBD building. He was focused on the fire escape on Houston Street.
From start to finish would take no more than 2 minutes to traverse the building and be back at the front door, making Adams whole statement and her being turned away at the front door a red flag in your story.
This is Jack's fifth and final "flaw".
To be honest, I don't even know what it means.
I agree it would have taken 2 minutes to make it round to the front of the building.
Styles walked straight back into the building unchallenged. Adams didn't decide to go back in until she heard the 12:38pm transmission referring to the second floor. Jack doesn't seem to appreciate that Adams was out front trying to discover what happened. She talks about a conversation with Avery Davies and listening to the police radio.
Jack's "flaws" seem really weak and are easily dealt with. There is nothing that undermines the theory I'm putting forward.
Maybe I'm missing something.
We'll see.
Wow. It is so hard to take this seriously. A lot of pictures, conjectures, and words but absolutely void of substance. Made up information, pictures, and overall pure conjecture. In the end, in the girls’ own statements, they encountered the officer behind the building and were told to return to the building and we know from Sgt Harkness’s testimony that the building was not locked down until 12:36. We know from Sawyers testimony, the front of the building was locked down at 12:37. Styles went in, and Adams was stopped. We know from Officer Barnett’s testimony he ran immediately to the back and did not encounter anyone emerging from the building. Adams and Styles emerged from the Houston Street dock, apparently that is new information to you. Nothing posted here changes that the girls left later than they thought.
-
Wow. It is so hard to take this seriously. A lot of pictures, conjectures, and words but absolutely void of substance. Made up information, pictures, and overall pure conjecture. In the end, in the girls’ own statements, they encountered the officer behind the building and were told to return to the building and we know from Sgt Harkness’s testimony that the building was not locked down until 12:36. We know from Sawyers testimony, the front of the building was locked down at 12:37. Styles went in, and Adams was stopped. We know from Officer Barnett’s testimony he ran immediately to the back and did not encounter anyone emerging from the building. Adams and Styles emerged from the Houston Street dock, apparently that is new information to you. Nothing posted here changes that the girls left later than they thought.
A lot of pictures,
:D :D :D
There are three pictures!
THREE!!
Apologies if I've reached the threshold of the number of images you can process in a single Reply.
I'll make sure I don't post four images in a single Reply, we don't want you having some kind of meltdown.
Adams and Styles emerged from the Houston Street dock, apparently that is new information to you.
Is it really new information to me?
It appears you can't even process two images.
The second image I posted was the route Adams and Styles took after they reached the first floor.
It has them leaving through the back door by the Houston Street dock, which is clearly marked on the image.
Here's the image if you don't believe me (you might need a nap after you've examined it):
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjLV1d55/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the end, in the girls’ own statements, they encountered the officer behind the building and were told to return to the building and we know from Sgt Harkness’s testimony that the building was not locked down until 12:36.
And here we have the two pieces of information you base your whole fantasy on.
Adams and Styles encountered a police officer after leaving the building and you have randomly decided this officer is Harkness.
It's truly unbelievable that this is the sum total of your efforts.
It's embarrassing.
Your deluded identification fails on so many levels it's actually funny.
You have an officer stood about 50ft away from the door he is supposed to be locking down.
He is stood around the corner of the building in a position where he can't even see the back door yet you insist he's locking the building down.
Adams and Styles completely ignore him and you still insist he's locking the building down.
What a waste of time and effort it is dealing with you.
-
A lot of pictures,
:D :D :D
There are three pictures!
THREE!!
Apologies if I've reached the threshold of the number of images you can process in a single Reply.
I'll make sure I don't post four images in a single Reply, we don't want you having some kind of meltdown.
Adams and Styles emerged from the Houston Street dock, apparently that is new information to you.
Is it really new information to me?
It appears you can't even process two images.
The second image I posted was the route Adams and Styles took after they reached the first floor.
It has them leaving through the back door by the Houston Street dock, which is clearly marked on the image.
Here's the image if you don't believe me (you might need a nap after you've examined it):
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjLV1d55/tsbd-first-floor-Adamsroute2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the end, in the girls’ own statements, they encountered the officer behind the building and were told to return to the building and we know from Sgt Harkness’s testimony that the building was not locked down until 12:36.
And here we have the two pieces of information you base your whole fantasy on.
Adams and Styles encountered a police officer after leaving the building and you have randomly decided this officer is Harkness.
It's truly unbelievable that this is the sum total of your efforts.
It's embarrassing.
Your deluded identification fails on so many levels it's actually funny.
You have an officer stood about 50ft away from the door he is supposed to be locking down.
He is stood around the corner of the building in a position where he can't even see the back door yet you insist he's locking the building down.
Adams and Styles completely ignore him and you still insist he's locking the building down.
What a waste of time and effort it is dealing with you.
I am just curious, but do you ever get tired of making grandiose pronouncements only for them to not be true? Maybe a little embarrassed? You are kind of like the cartoon character Wile E Coyote and you have the Acme Research and Posting Kit and it is doing you in all the time.
Dan O --“Jack's fourth "flaw".
Firstly, there is absolutely no reason why Adams and Styles would have "encountered" Barnett. He was on Houston Street, Adams and Styles were not.
Interestingly, in the Lost Interview, Adams refers to seeing a police officer on Houston Street after she exited the back door.”
Huh? She would have had to if she exited right by him as per your picture.
...”He was on Houston Street, Adams and Styles were not.”
It could not be more obvious what you stated. Why would anyone question your skills? Again, they exited on Houston Street. They said they exited on Houston Street. Barnett was on Houston Street. What don't you get about that?
“There are three pictures!”
So, a lot means more than three?
“Adams and Styles completely ignore him and you still insist he's locking the building down.”
Adams and Styles did not ignore the officer but instead went to the front and back into the building. They repeatedly stated they encountered an officer.
For a renowned infamous researcher who is unrelenting on the accuracy in the information in the affidavits and testimonies and then to make a statement like this.
Dan, this is just pretty bad.
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I am just curious, but do you ever get tired of making grandiose pronouncements only for them to not be true? Maybe a little embarrassed? You are kind of like the cartoon character Wile E Coyote and you have the Acme Research and Posting Kit and it is doing you in all the time.
Dan O --“Jack's fourth "flaw".
Firstly, there is absolutely no reason why Adams and Styles would have "encountered" Barnett. He was on Houston Street, Adams and Styles were not.
Interestingly, in the Lost Interview, Adams refers to seeing a police officer on Houston Street after she exited the back door.”
Huh? She would have had to if she exited right by him as per your picture.
...”He was on Houston Street, Adams and Styles were not.”
It could not be more obvious what you stated. Why would anyone question your skills? Again, they exited on Houston Street. They said they exited on Houston Street. Barnett was on Houston Street. What don't you get about that?
::)
You really are the gift that keeps on giving.
Once more, your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case comes shining through.
Adams and Styles do not exit onto Houston Street - I'll leave that with you to work out yourself.
“There are three pictures!”
So, a lot means more than three?
??
“Adams and Styles completely ignore him and you still insist he's locking the building down.”
Adams and Styles did not ignore the officer but instead went to the front and back into the building. They repeatedly stated they encountered an officer.
For a renowned infamous researcher who is unrelenting on the accuracy in the information in the affidavits and testimonies and then to make a statement like this.
Dan, this is just pretty bad.
??
I've stated over and over again that they encountered a police officer.
I've made the point repeatedly in connection with your ridiculous fantasy that this officer was Harkness locking down the building.
He was stood about 50ft away from the door he was supposed to be locking down - you don't have a problem with that.
He was stood around the corner of the building so he couldn't even see the door he was supposed to be locking down - you don't have a problem with that either.
Adams and Styles were outside the building. When a building is being locked down those who are inside can't go outside and those who are outside can't come back inside - but this officer does exactly the opposite of that, he orders people who are outside the building to go back inside. This is not an officer locking down the building.
And when he orders them back inside, they don't go back the way they've come from, they just carry on around the side of the building. They eventually go back inside but not because this officer has ordered them to. Adams goes back inside because of a radio call she hears on a police bike, nothing to do with the police officer she encounters, who she completely ignores.
Anyone with half a brain can see that this isn't an officer locking down the building.
Your idea this is Harkness locking down the building is pure fantasy.
If anything that officer is trying to keep people out of the railroad yard area, where a search is going on, and that's it.
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::)
You really are the gift that keeps on giving.
Once more, your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case comes shining through.
Adams and Styles do not exit onto Houston Street - I'll leave that with you to work out yourself.
??
??
I've stated over and over again that they encountered a police officer.
I've made the point repeatedly in connection with your ridiculous fantasy that this officer was Harkness locking down the building.
He was stood about 50ft away from the door he was supposed to be locking down - you don't have a problem with that.
He was stood around the corner of the building so he couldn't even see the door he was supposed to be locking down - you don't have a problem with that either.
Adams and Styles were outside the building. When a building is being locked down those who are inside can't go outside and those who are outside can't come back inside - but this officer does exactly the opposite of that, he orders people who are outside the building to go back inside. This is not an officer locking down the building.
And when he orders them back inside, they don't go back the way they've come from, they just carry on around the side of the building. They eventually go back inside but not because this officer has ordered them to. Adams goes back inside because of a radio call she hears on a police bike, nothing to do with the police officer she encounters, who she completely ignores.
Anyone with half a brain can see that this isn't an officer locking down the building.
Your idea this is Harkness locking down the building is pure fantasy.
If anything that officer is trying to keep people out of the railroad yard area, where a search is going on, and that's it.
Anyone with half a brain can see that this isn't an officer locking down the building.
Your idea this is Harkness locking down the building is pure fantasy.
Dan, you sure don’t speak very highly of yourself. Half a brain? I give you more credit than that.
No what we have here is a grown male using emojis’ like an adolescent girl. Endlessly getting caught posting nonsense as truth and facts. Making stories as you go and blathering on about something you know nothing about.
Reply #445 states what you posted earlier and it does not mirror the current nonsense.
Reply #445
Dan O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
-----------------------------------
If anything that officer is trying to keep people out of the railroad yard area, where a search is going on, and that's it.
Huh. Where does anyone ever mention locking down the Railroad Yards?
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
----------------------------------------------
Nobody can ever accuse you of telling the same story twice. Making up stories seems to be your strong point. The only person in this story with a problem with the truth is you.
In this post you not only acknowledge the building was being locked down, but that Adams and Styles encountered the officers in the back where Harkness was standing.
Reply Dan O #445
Dan O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
You understand the back of the building was being locked down in this post.
Dan O'Meara--In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Reply Dan O #454
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside
Apparently, you are a child and could not understand what you have posted.
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Anyone with half a brain can see that this isn't an officer locking down the building.
Your idea this is Harkness locking down the building is pure fantasy.
Dan, you sure don’t speak very highly of yourself. Half a brain? I give you more credit than that.
No what we have here is a grown male using emojis’ like an adolescent girl. Endlessly getting caught posting nonsense as truth and facts. Making stories as you go and blathering on about something you know nothing about.
Reply #445 states what you posted earlier and it does not mirror the current nonsense.
Reply #445
Dan O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
-----------------------------------
If anything that officer is trying to keep people out of the railroad yard area, where a search is going on, and that's it.
Huh. Where does anyone ever mention locking down the Railroad Yards?
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
----------------------------------------------
Nobody can ever accuse you of telling the same story twice. Making up stories seems to be your strong point. The only person in this story with a problem with the truth is you.
In this post you not only acknowledge the building was being locked down, but that Adams and Styles encountered the officers in the back where Harkness was standing.
Reply Dan O #445
Dan O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
You understand the back of the building was being locked down in this post.
Dan O'Meara--In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Reply Dan O #454
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside
Apparently, you are a child and could not understand what you have posted.
The same confused old nonsense.
Harkness is not the officer who Adams and Styles encountered after they left the building.
The officer Adams and Styles encounter is not locking down the building.
If he was locking down the building he would:
1] Be stood by the back door and not 50 ft away from it and around the corner of the building so he can't even see the back door
2] Stopping people from leaving the building. Unlike Adams and Styles, who just stroll out.
3] Stopping people from getting back inside the building, unlike the officer Adams and Styles encounter who is ordering people who are outside the building back inside.
Adams and Styles encounter this officer approximately one minute after the last shot.
He is the officer Barnett sees around the back of the building.
Harkness doesn't arrive on the scene for another five minutes.
-
The same confused old nonsense.
Harkness is not the officer who Adams and Styles encountered after they left the building.
The officer Adams and Styles encounter is not locking down the building.
If he was locking down the building he would:
1] Be stood by the back door and not 50 ft away from it and around the corner of the building so he can't even see the back door
2] Stopping people from leaving the building. Unlike Adams and Styles, who just stroll out.
3] Stopping people from getting back inside the building, unlike the officer Adams and Styles encounter who is ordering people who are outside the building back inside.
Adams and Styles encounter this officer approximately one minute after the last shot.
He is the officer Barnett sees around the back of the building.
Harkness doesn't arrive on the scene for another five minutes.
Adams and Styles encounter this officer approximately one minute after the last shot.
He is the officer Barnett sees around the back of the building.
? Who-- But they do not see Barnett or he them. This is actually sadly pathetic.
Dan O--“If he was locking down the building he would:
1] Be stood by the back door and not 50 ft away from it and around the corner of the building so he can't even see the back door
2] Stopping people from leaving the building. Unlike Adams and Styles, who just stroll out.
3] Stopping people from getting back inside the building, unlike the officer Adams and Styles encounter who is ordering people who are outside the building back inside.”
I guess this makes sense to you. Can you quote anyone actually who actually state this fantasy?
Your previous posts don’t support your statement. Barnett’s statement is directly contradicting this nonsense.
Reply #445
Dan O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Reply Dan O #454
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside
Reply #465
Dan O---”Adams and Styles do not exit onto Houston Street”
Actually, they did.
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
The best part is how you just make things up as you go and post what comes to you, then call everyone else dishonest and liars. Are there any adolescent girl emojis that magically make it appear you are telling the truth? Maybe if you would quote one of these officers’ testimonies instead of relying on your personal opinion you could learn a little more about the assassination.
Adams exited the Houston Street door. She saw the officers Barnett refers to when she they exited on Houston Street. Remember they were stationed at the corner.
-
Adams and Styles encounter this officer approximately one minute after the last shot.
He is the officer Barnett sees around the back of the building.
? Who-- But they do not see Barnett or he them. This is actually sadly pathetic.
Dan O--“If he was locking down the building he would:
1] Be stood by the back door and not 50 ft away from it and around the corner of the building so he can't even see the back door
2] Stopping people from leaving the building. Unlike Adams and Styles, who just stroll out.
3] Stopping people from getting back inside the building, unlike the officer Adams and Styles encounter who is ordering people who are outside the building back inside.”
I guess this makes sense to you. Can you quote anyone actually who actually state this fantasy?
Your previous posts don’t support your statement. Barnett’s statement is directly contradicting this nonsense.
Reply #445
Dan O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Reply Dan O #454
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside
Reply #465
Dan O---”Adams and Styles do not exit onto Houston Street”
Actually, they did.
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
The best part is how you just make things up as you go and post what comes to you, then call everyone else dishonest and liars. Are there any adolescent girl emojis that magically make it appear you are telling the truth? Maybe if you would quote one of these officers’ testimonies instead of relying on your personal opinion you could learn a little more about the assassination.
Adams exited the Houston Street door. She saw the officers Barnett refers to when she they exited on Houston Street. Remember they were stationed at the corner.
The usual brilliant critique, full of evidence and facts to back up your "points".
Dan O---”Adams and Styles do not exit onto Houston Street”
Actually, they did.
::)
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The usual brilliant critique, full of evidence and facts to back up your "points".
Dan O---”Adams and Styles do not exit onto Houston Street”
Actually, they did.
::)
While attempting to make yourself appear to be something you are not, you must have edited these out by mistake.
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
-
While attempting to make yourself appear to be something you are not, you must have edited these out by mistake.
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
It's really blowing your mind, isn't it?
I'm saying Adams and Styles exited the back door by the Houston Street dock but at no point were they on Houston Street.
I'm really fascinated to see if you can work this immense puzzle out.
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It's really blowing your mind, isn't it?
I'm saying Adams and Styles exited the back door by the Houston Street dock but at no point were they on Houston Street.
I'm really fascinated to see if you can work this immense puzzle out.
This is pure genius. This is really what your point is? Seriously? Tell me again how smart you are. I guess what can be expected from a "researcher" whose conclusion is everyone involved were track stars in a dead sprint everywhere they went. Otherwise, how would the Stroud document have great meaning. Isn't that your whole point?
So, if you don't think the Houston Street dock is not on Houston Street? Then where is it?
Was Barnett on Houston Street?
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This is pure genius. This is really what your point is? Seriously? Tell me again how smart you are. I guess what can be expected from a "researcher" whose conclusion is everyone involved were track stars in a dead sprint everywhere they went. Otherwise, how would the Stroud document have great meaning. Isn't that your whole point?
So, if you don't think the Houston Street dock is not on Houston Street? Then where is it?
Was Barnett on Houston Street?
Last chance to work it out for yourself.
This is from Barnett's WC testimony:
Mr. Liebeler: There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett: It is around the corner from Houston Street.
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Last chance to work it out for yourself.
This is from Barnett's WC testimony:
Mr. Liebeler: There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett: It is around the corner from Houston Street.
By all means explain why he does not state it is in the back of the building but instead states it is around the corner from Houston street.
Finish whatever thought you are having or what you think is your explanation for the door he is talking about but make sure it concludes with this statement.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. BARNETT - I went looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
Not an officer anywhere near the building.
Stay focused. Again, explain why the Houston Street Dock is not on Houston Street. Was Barnett on Houston Street?
-
By all means explain why he does not state it is in the back of the building but instead states it is around the corner from Houston street.
Finish whatever thought you are having or what you think is your explanation for the door he is talking about but make sure it concludes with this statement.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. BARNETT - I went looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
Not an officer anywhere near the building.
Stay focused. Again, explain why the Houston Street Dock is not on Houston Street. Was Barnett on Houston Street?
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGJf05k9/TSBD1stfloor.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Stay focused buddy.
You can do it.
Mr. Barnett: Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since ,this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.
Stay focused.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/hGJf05k9/TSBD1stfloor.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Stay focused buddy.
You can do it.
Mr. Barnett: Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since ,this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.
Stay focused.
Barnett is on Houston Street and describing the TSBD on Houston Street. See where the door is? You can't see the door from the front of the building can you? Any chance you will come back to reality soon?
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Barnett is on Houston Street and describing the TSBD on Houston Street. See where the door is? You can't see the door from the front of the building can you? Any chance you will come back to reality soon?
You can't see the door from the front of the building can you?
Well done buddy.
At long last you've posted something that's correct - you really can't see the back door from the front of the building!
Congrats.
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You can't see the door from the front of the building can you?
Well done buddy.
At long last you've posted something that's correct - you really can't see the back door from the front of the building!
Congrats.
So has the light finally come on, and you finally get what Barnett was talking about?
So since ,this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape.
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So has the light finally come on, and you finally get what Barnett was talking about?
So since ,this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape.
I take it you don't do sarcasm.