Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Dan O'meara]

Just a closer examination of the '3 Minute Lie' Shelley and Lovelady tell to the WC.
This analysis will leave very little doubt that both men lied about their movements after the assassination.
In his affidavit, taken hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after the shooting he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete 'spur' where he runs into Gloria Calvery.
In his affidavit taken the same day, Lovelady makes no mention of leaving the steps before going back inside the building.
However, by the time of the WC hearings this story has changed. According to Shelley, after the shooting both men are at the steps when Gloria comes running up and after this both men run across to the concrete spur. While they are there they turn to see Baker and Truly at the foot of the front steps:

Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

3 or 4 minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside according to Shelley.
This is completely refuted by the Darnell footage which shows Baker running towards the front steps within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Shelley's lie that it took Gloria 3 or 4 minutes to make it back to the steps is utterly ridiculous. In a previous post I demonstrated that Gloria was at the front steps before Baker got there.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his WC testimony - that it took Gloria three minutes to run from Elm street to the front steps:

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

After this both men leave the steps and it is after this Lovelady turns to see Baker and Truly going into the building. Both men use the 3 minute timing of Gloria arriving at the steps to timestamp the entry of Baker and Truly into the building. If it was just one of them telling the 3 minute lie it could be written off as some kind of 'misremembrance' but the fact it's both of them reveals an organised and co-ordinated attempt to deliberately alter the timeline of events immediately after the assassination. And this is not the only time - Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash:

"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered the building five or six minutes after the shooting."

The Darnell footage proves this is a lie. As does Vicki witnessing them on the first floor seconds after the assassination (supported by Baker's observation of two white men in the same area).
Once it is accepted as a lie, the rest of their various statements to the investigating authorities can be put in context.
The most honest statements are the first ones given. The affidavits taken hours after the assassination make no mention of going along the Elm Street, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard and no mention of re-entering the building through the west door. There is no mention of Lovelady leaving the steps and he re-enters the building "after it was over". Shelley runs out to the concrete spur, runs into Gloria, returns to the steps and re-enters the building.
The affidavits match perfectly with the analysis I did in Reply#403, capturing the moment Gloria has returned to the steps and Shelley has followed her back. According to their affidavits it is shortly after this moment that both men re-enter the TSBD.

Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI and the lying has begun. He states that both he and Shelley "started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass." He doesn't say they actually went anywhere or for how long, just that they "started running". He also doesn't mention the railroad yard but instead indicates the area where the limo was before it sped away.
Does he mean the railroad yard or the area on Elm Street where the limo slowed down? He clarifies this point in an FBI interview [(3-19-64]

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

So he is referring to the spot on Elm Street where the limo slowed down to a near stop and not the railroad yard! In this version of events both men stay in that area for five minutes. Add on the time it would take to get there, the time it would take to get back to the building and make their way to the spot where Adams saw them, this would have Adams on the first floor about 12:37pm, making it impossible for her to run out the back, have an interaction with a police officer, race around to the front of the building, have a conversation with Avery Davis and then hear the 12:38pm broadcast of a shooter in the building that persuades her to go back inside.
Worse than this is the FBI statement Shelley gave the day before:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Ten minutes later!!
That would place the meeting with Adams on the first floor around 12:41pm. The building would've been locked down before she even got outside!!
I've already been through the lies they told the WC. Lies that completely contradicted the time trials involving Baker and Truly but to which the WC turned a blind eye.
Which just leaves Lovelady's HSCA whopper - that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting.

Only the truly deluded can't recognise these men are lying about their movements after the assassination.
But why would they lie?
The only reason I can see is because they were witnessed on the first floor by Vicki Adams (and Baker) seconds after the assassination and they want to distance themselves from this fact. They are trying to cover up the fact they were near the back of the first floor of the TSBD within seconds of the assassination.
Why are they trying to cover this up?
What is the reason that anyone tries to cover anything up?
The most obvious answer is that they were up to no good and were spotted while in the process.
Maybe there's a more innocent explanation why they would lie to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, but I can't see it.

Nutters will cry, "But what were they up to? What are you accusing them of?"
At the moment I'm accusing them of lying to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA about their movements after the assassination.
I'm accusing them of trying to cover up the fact they raced towards the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination.
Nutters may not find this interesting but I most certainly do.

[Martin Weidmann]

Just a closer examination of the '3 Minute Lie' Shelley and Lovelady tell to the WC.
This analysis will leave very little doubt that both men lied about their movements after the assassination.
In his affidavit, taken hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after the shooting he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete 'spur' where he runs into Gloria Calvery.
In his affidavit taken the same day, Lovelady makes no mention of leaving the steps before going back inside the building.
However, by the time of the WC hearings this story has changed. According to Shelley, after the shooting both men are at the steps when Gloria comes running up and after this both men run across to the concrete spur. While they are there they turn to see Baker and Truly at the foot of the front steps:

Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

3 or 4 minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside according to Shelley.
This is completely refuted by the Darnell footage which shows Baker running towards the front steps within a matter of seconds after the shooting.
Shelley's lie that it took Gloria 3 or 4 minutes to make it back to the steps is utterly ridiculous. In a previous post I demonstrated that Gloria was at the front steps before Baker got there.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his WC testimony - that it took Gloria three minutes to run from Elm street to the front steps:

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

After this both men leave the steps and it is after this Lovelady turns to see Baker and Truly going into the building. Both men use the 3 minute timing of Gloria arriving at the steps to timestamp the entry of Baker and Truly into the building. If it was just one of them telling the 3 minute lie it could be written off as some kind of 'misremembrance' but the fact it's both of them reveals an organised and co-ordinated attempt to deliberately alter the timeline of events immediately after the assassination. And this is not the only time - Shelley goes on to repeat this lie to George and Patricia Nash:

"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered the building five or six minutes after the shooting."

The Darnell footage proves this is a lie. As does Vicki witnessing them on the first floor seconds after the assassination (supported by Baker's observation of two white men in the same area).
Once it is accepted as a lie, the rest of their various statements to the investigating authorities can be put in context.
The most honest statements are the first ones given. The affidavits taken hours after the assassination make no mention of going along the Elm Street, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard and no mention of re-entering the building through the west door. There is no mention of Lovelady leaving the steps and he re-enters the building "after it was over". Shelley runs out to the concrete spur, runs into Gloria, returns to the steps and re-enters the building.
The affidavits match perfectly with the analysis I did in Reply#403, capturing the moment Gloria has returned to the steps and Shelley has followed her back. According to their affidavits it is shortly after this moment that both men re-enter the TSBD.

Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI and the lying has begun. He states that both he and Shelley "started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass." He doesn't say they actually went anywhere or for how long, just that they "started running". He also doesn't mention the railroad yard but instead indicates the area where the limo was before it sped away.
Does he mean the railroad yard or the area on Elm Street where the limo slowed down? He clarifies this point in an FBI interview [(3-19-64]

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

So he is referring to the spot on Elm Street where the limo slowed down to a near stop and not the railroad yard! In this version of events both men stay in that area for five minutes. Add on the time it would take to get there, the time it would take to get back to the building and make their way to the spot where Adams saw them, this would have Adams on the first floor about 12:37pm, making it impossible for her to run out the back, have an interaction with a police officer, race around to the front of the building, have a conversation with Avery Davis and then hear the 12:38pm broadcast of a shooter in the building that persuades her to go back inside.
Worse than this is the FBI statement Shelley gave the day before:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Ten minutes later!!
That would place the meeting with Adams on the first floor around 12:41pm. The building would've been locked down before she even got outside!!
I've already been through the lies they told the WC. Lies that completely contradicted the time trials involving Baker and Truly but to which the WC turned a blind eye.
Which just leaves Lovelady's HSCA whopper - that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 to 20 minutes after the shooting.

Only the truly deluded can't recognise these men are lying about their movements after the assassination.
But why would they lie?
The only reason I can see is because they were witnessed on the first floor by Vicki Adams (and Baker) seconds after the assassination and they want to distance themselves from this fact. They are trying to cover up the fact they were near the back of the first floor of the TSBD within seconds of the assassination.
Why are they trying to cover this up?
What is the reason that anyone tries to cover anything up?
The most obvious answer is that they were up to no good and were spotted while in the process.
Maybe there's a more innocent explanation why they would lie to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, but I can't see it.

Nutters will cry, "But what were they up to? What are you accusing them of?"
At the moment I'm accusing them of lying to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA about their movements after the assassination.
I'm accusing them of trying to cover up the fact they raced towards the back of the first floor seconds after the assassination.
Nutters may not find this interesting but I most certainly do.

You've made a persuasive case to justify the conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady's time estimates can not be trusted or relied upon.

As for the sequence of events, I still don't understand how Shelley and Lovelady could have arrived at the stairs before Truly and Baker. In the 1978 made for TV movie "Ruby and Oswald" there is a clip showing actors playing Truly and Baker running from the front entrance counter to the elevators and they needed no more that 20 seconds to get to the stairs. So, if Shelley and Lovelady were still on the front steps when Truly and Baker went inside the building, how could it be that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady but not Truly and Baker?

On the other hand, Shelley and Lovelady would have been able to enter the first floor at the side door within seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building. If that's what happened, it explains how Shelley could have seen Eddie Piper, who placed himself right in their line of sight in his testimony. Adams also had a clear line of sight to where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered. I still believe that she could have seen the men just a split second before leaving the building, just before Truly and Baker got there.

The reason why I think Shelley and Lovelady are being truthful about where the re-entered the building is a video clip that Gerda Dunckel made some years ago, which shows Shelley and Lovelady walking in front of the TSBD towards the parking lot.
I had hoped to find it in the photo galary but it isn't there and I haven't found it elsewhere either. There is however another clip (# 10 in Gerda's collection) which (I believe, but do not know for sure) shows Shelley talking to a police officer in the parking lot. If it is Shelley, I also can't tell when the footage was shot. I would love to find the other video though. Perhaps another member has it and can post it.

[Dan O'meara]

You've made a persuasive case to justify the conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady's time estimates can not be trusted or relied upon.

As for the sequence of events, I still don't understand how Shelley and Lovelady could have arrived at the stairs before Truly and Baker. In the 1978 made for TV movie "Ruby and Oswald" there is a clip showing actors playing Truly and Baker running from the front entrance counter to the elevators and they needed no more that 20 seconds to get to the stairs. So, if Shelley and Lovelady were still on the front steps when Truly and Baker went inside the building, how could it be that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady but not Truly and Baker?

On the other hand, Shelley and Lovelady would have been able to enter the first floor at the side door within seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building. If that's what happened, it explains how Shelley could have seen Eddie Piper, who placed himself right in their line of sight in his testimony. Adams also had a clear line of sight to where Shelley and Lovelady said they entered. I still believe that she could have seen the men just a split second before leaving the building, just before Truly and Baker got there.

I have definitely been emphasising the veracity of what Adams testified to in her WC testimony as she reiterates the same points in the "Lost Interview". I think this is further supported by her statement to the DPD where she first mentions seeing Shelley and Lovelady.
She constantly asserts that she leaves the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. She states it was immediately after the last shot and that she had made the decision to go and investigate before the limo had even reached the underpass.
Seconds later Dillard takes a pic which includes the fourth floor window Adams was watching events out of. She and Styles are nowhere to be seen. This is to be expected if she has already decided to get downstairs.
I have demonstrated that Adams could've been on the first floor 35 -40 seconds after the last shot and before Truly and Baker make it to the area near the elevator The Stroud document confirms that this was indeed the case.
Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady as she runs from the first floor stairs to the back door. She is certain and precise about their position:

Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Slightly east of the east elevator and as far south as the length of the elevator.
In the diagram below the circle marks this approximate area and the line shows Adams' approximate route.



Adams can be sure of this position because she has an interaction with them:

Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS. Nothing.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.

In my opinion, it is impossible for Shelley and Lovelady to get down to the west door and into the position Adams sees them within 35 - 40 seconds.
Another problem with the west door theory is that Adams is racing towards the Houston Street loading dock door and would have her back to the west door. She would be running away from it and she would not have been able to have any kind of interaction with Shelley and Lovelady.
On top of that, the west door theory is relying on the word of Shelley and Lovelady, two liars who are specifically lying about their movements after the assassination.

So, how do Shelley and Lovelady end up near the elevators before Truly and Baker in the theory that emanates from taking Vicki at her word?
In Reply#403 I brought together as much relevant evidence as I could to recreate the seconds immediately after the assassination regarding the movements of Shelley and Lovelady. It culminated in this series of identifications:



According to the theory I'm developing here, the above pic shows Baker almost at the bottom of the steps, near where Shelley is standing. Lovelady is a few steps up listening to Gloria. But note Truly, he is the furthest away from the front door and is looking the wrong way.
As the seconds roll on from this point, Baker makes his way up the steps (probably the east side of the steps as he is remembered by Pauline Saunders who is stood on the east side). Baker enters the lobby and wants to find out about getting up through the building. As Baker is moving up the steps into the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way up the steps, pass Baker in the lobby and move into the first floor working area. They are followed up the steps by Truly who enters the lobby and goes straight to Baker. He and Baker have some kind of interaction before they head off for the elevators.
Shelley and Lovelady are just a few seconds ahead of them, they arrive at the position shown on the map above where they are seen by Adams. Adams exits through the back door and Baker and Truly arrive where Baker notices two white men just stood around the area near the elevators.
Baker makes this point in his WC testimony - as he enters the building he is aware of other people entering with him.

Mr. Belin: What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. Baker: As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. Belin: All right.
Mr. Baker: And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these people entering at the same time as him are Shelley and Lovelady who are closer to the front door than Truly is. It should be noted that, according to Baker, Truly arrives on the scene after the people who have entered with him.

The reason why I think Shelley and Lovelady are being truthful about where the re-entered the building is a video clip that Gerda Dunckel made some years ago, which shows Shelley and Lovelady walking in front of the TSBD towards the parking lot.
I had hoped to find it in the photo galary but it isn't there and I haven't found it elsewhere either. There is however another clip (# 10 in Gerda's collection) which (I believe, but do not know for sure) shows Shelley talking to a police officer in the parking lot. If it is Shelley, I also can't tell when the footage was shot. I would love to find the other video though. Perhaps another member has it and can post it.

I know the Dunkel clip you're talking about but the truth is that a close analysis of this clip shows that these men are not walking together. At the beginning of the clip one man is behind the other and as it rolls the man at the back moves quickly past the other and keeps going. Neither man looks back towards the steps where they are supposed to see Baker at the bottom of the steps. Neither man has run to the concrete spur, as both men lied, I mean, testified to. I think it was Alan Ford who had the rare insight that Danny Arce was a good candidate for the slower of the two.
I certainly don't buy it's them and have put a case forward for Shelley and Lovelady still being at the steps when Baker arrives, a position they can realistically make it to the back of the first floor while Truly talks with Baker.

Final note - there is definitely something going on with the west door. They are mentioning it for a specific reason. It is doubtless something to do with whatever it is they are trying to cover up.

[Dan O'meara]

[Martin Weidmann]

Slightly east of the east elevator and as far south as the length of the elevator.
In the diagram below the circle marks this approximate area and the line shows Adams' approximate route.

Are you sure of the route Adams took?

If Adams and Styles took that route, they would have been directly in the line of sight of Truly and Baker as they were running towards the elevator.

It has always been my understanding that Adams and Styles went outside using the big loading door between the stairs and the elevators, which at that time was open.

[Dan O'meara]

Are you sure of the route Adams took?

If Adams and Styles took that route, they would have been directly in the line of sight of Truly and Baker as they were running towards the elevator.

It has always been my understanding that Adams and Styles went outside using the big loading door between the stairs and the elevators, which at that time was open.

I'm pretty sure.
Adams states:

"I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

I get the distinct impression she is referring to the door leading directly out onto the Houston Street loading dock ( marked on the diagram) and her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady happens as she is "on the way out to" the Houston Street dock. To me, the phrase "on the way out to" implies there is some distance between the bottom of the stairs and the door she exits through. I also think it makes more sense that this is her route in terms of her interaction with Shelley and Lovelady.

Obviously, Baker and Truly don't see Adams and Styles exiting the first floor and this clearly favours your suggestion of the loading door at the bottom of the stairs. However, if Truly and Baker are still in the lobby or just starting to make their way out of that area into the main body of the first floor, this would explain why they never saw Adams or Styles exiting at the opposite end of the building.
It must also be remembered that there was some kind of momentary hold up as Baker crashed into the back of Truly at the swinging door between the lobby and the main working area.

[Dan O'meara]

Establishing Shelley lied about his movements after the assassination has important ramifications.
It shows he was trying to cover something up and that he was more than willing to lie to the various investigating authorities on multiple occasions.
It also casts huge doubts over other statements made by Shelley which are of huge significance in regard to the aftermath of the assassination.
The first one I'd like to examine is related to Oswald's alibi.

Oswald may have been a lot of things but he was not stupid.
When a person gives an alibi to the police they know they have gone on record and that this is the version of events that will be used against them in a court of law. For anyone accused of a crime, the most important element of their defence is the alibi. They also know that once the alibi is given it will be checked to see how 'cast iron' it is. If someone is giving a false alibi it must be one that is incredibly difficult to verify or one that has been agreed with an accomplice.
Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements.
According to what Oswald reportedly said -
1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] He finished his lunch and, possibly while he was finishing it, got together with Bill Shelley.
6] Shelley told him there would be no more work that day and that it was okay for him to take the rest of the day off.
7] Oswald left the building.

Firstly, there is no way to verify that Oswald was in the Domino Room when JFK passed by. Although Oswald does seem to confirm this with his mention of Junior Jarman and, presumably, Hank Norman. The only time he could have seen these two men together on the first floor is when they entered the back door of the TSBD building on their way up to the fifth floor. Because the east elevator wasn't available Jarman and Norman had to walk around the elevators to get the west elevator. Walking around the elevators would have brought them into line of sight for someone sat in the Domino room. This makes Oswald's apparent mention of seeing these men together compelling evidence supporting his assertion he was in the first floor lunchroom at the time JFK went by.
Unfortunately for Oswald, neither Jarman nor Norman saw him so there is no direct alibi.

Secondly, the second floor lunchroom encounter is well attested to and seems to be confirmed by Oswald, Baker and Truly (not to mention Mrs Robert Reid who saw Oswald close to the lunchroom with a Coke in his hand a couple of minutes after the assassination). There is a wrinkle - Oswald appears to make it clear he had already bought his Coke and was sipping it when Baker burst in, something supported by Baker's initial report in which he had written Oswald was already drinking a Coke when the encounter occurred but which was then crudely crossed out. This really buggers up the timeline for Oswald allegedly getting down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom. Whatever the case, there is ample confirmation that Oswald was indeed in the second floor lunchroom seconds after the assassination.

The third element to Oswald's alibi is his interaction with Bill Shelley. Apparently, Oswald credits Bill Shelley with his motive for leaving the building. The importance of this cannot be stressed enough because it is Oswald's choice to leave the TSBD that alerts the authorities to him. It is his decision to 'flee the scene' that puts him well and truly in the spotlight as a prime suspect on the day of the assassination. Even if he actually pulled the trigger, he has no reason to run immediately. He has already encountered the police, seconds after the shooting, four floors below the location of the shooting and has been given a pass. They can't immediately trace the rifle to him, they can't use fingerprint evidence against him on the day. All he has to do is hold his nerve, say he was on the second floor lunchroom all along and skip town later that day. But instead he runs.

So let's imagine that he is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law.
Why on earth would he add the detail that he'd talked to Bill Shelley after the lunchroom incident and it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day? He saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview and Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knows that all they have to do is ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. Which they did. And Shelley denied it.

This is the point of what I'm getting at. I may have certain details wrong but the bottom line is that Oswald reportedly included Shelley as part of his alibi.
Why did he do that?
Maybe he just thought that, by some miracle, Shelley would back him up. That, although this incident never happened, Shelley would somehow know, when being questioned, that Oswald was asking him to lie to the police on his behalf and back him up.
Or maybe he did talk to Shelley after the lunchroom incident and Shelley knowingly denied it (due to a lack of imagination, I can't really come up with a third option.)

So, which of these two options makes sense - that Oswald was so utterly stupid as to include Shelley in a false alibi or that Oswald was telling the truth about this chat with Shelley, which is why he felt comfortable telling his interrogators about it?
I would argue it is the second option. Furthermore, it is as if Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up on this. Why else say it?

So, it's looking like Shelley also lied about this chat with Oswald after the second floor lunchroom incident and before Oswald left the building - a timespan of 3 to 4 minutes after the assassination.

Thoughts?