Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Martin Weidmann]

This is interesting. It answers all of your questions. A timeline proposed by Martin Weidmann. It shows Martin Weidmann is well aware of who interacted with who, Shelley and Lovelady talking to Calvary not Westbrook, and Adams and Styles encountering the Policeman at the NW corner of the TSBD and being told to return to the front of the building. Martin then estimates it takes one to two minutes for Adams and Styles to “walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension”, to return to the front of the building. When did you start claiming the girls were at the railroad yard? It is clear you did not in this timeline.

It would take them two minutes to walk a couple of hundred feet only if they were dragging a leg or crawling.

There are a number of things wrong with this timeline, but the thing Martin is most wrong about is when did the girls leave. Fortunately, Officer Harkness (12:36) and Detective Sawyer (12:37) apply the proper times that can correct the timeline. The encounter with Shelley and Lovelady (12:35) by the first floor elevator as the girls are leaving adds additional proof.

Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot"

Martin Weidmann Timeline
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

But Vickie states she saw them.

Do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion?


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

« Reply #707 on: July 08, 2020, 09:42:20 AM »

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Martin Weidmann Timeline

 

For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
 
12.30.00 Last shot
 
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
              Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
             
              Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
              They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
              towards the railroad yard
              Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
 
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
 
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
 
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.             
 
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
              just left of the stairs     
              Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
              run towards the stairs, just missing the women
 
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
 
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
              Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
 
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
         
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
              go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
              towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
              Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
 
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
           
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
 
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
 
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
 
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
              front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
              The building is not yet sealed off.
 
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
              entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
              in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
              (where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
              officers or secret service.
             
              Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
 
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
 
             Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
 
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
 
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building
 
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

It's difficult to understand what you are actually trying to say in this messy post, but I'll give it a try.


The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

Yes, that's what I said in 2020 and still say today. I would just add this;

This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.

Dorothy Garner followed Adams and Styles out the office. After Adams and Styles had gone down, Garner stood next to the stairs and looked through the window next to it to see what was going on at the west side of the building. She should have seen and heard a person coming down from the 6th floor, but she didn't. She did however see Truly and a policeman (Baker) come up. That's why the remark in the Stroud letter (which was buried by Rankin) and Garner's comments to Barry Ernest are so important. Also, Vickie Adams is adamant that the stairs were so noisy that she would have heard anybody else coming down on the stairs, but she heard nothing!

So, although "Oswald" and the women could, in theory, have been on the stairs at the same time. Dorothy Garner makes that theory highly unlikely, if not impossible.

There are a number of things wrong with this timeline, but the thing Martin is most wrong about is when did the girls leave. Fortunately, Officer Harkness (12:36) and Detective Sawyer (12:37) apply the proper times that can correct the timeline. The encounter with Shelley and Lovelady (12:35) by the first floor elevator as the girls are leaving adds additional proof.

This is, of course, utter nosense. There is nothing that Harkness and Sawyer said that corrects the timeline in any significant way. Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at around 12:36, took 3 minutes to go up to the 4th floor (for whatever reason) and back down again.

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Sawyer isn't even firm on the exact time, as he could have been back from the 4th floor at no sooner than 12:37

When he arrived back at the front entrance, other officers had already sealed off the building.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.

Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building through the front door before it was locked down. That must have happened between 12:35 and 12:37.

And there was no encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor at 12:35. There is no corroboration for it from Shelley and Lovelady and it's physically impossible for Adams and Styles to be at the bottom of the stairs on the first floor at 12:35 and be at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37!

Here's a photograph of the TSBD showing the loading dock at the back, the area west of the building and the dead end street of Elm, next to the front of the building. I have replaced the original picture I posted with one I borrowed from Marjan Rynkiewicz! I hope she doesn't mind.



The picture provides a clear view of how Adams and Styles walked. Down the stairs of the loading dock (somewhere near where the white car is parked), over the first set of tracks, along the curve (which is roughly where I believe they were stopped by a police man and where Shelley and Lovelady were), along the railroad tracks next to the outer fence at the curved side of the annex building, turning left onto the dead end street of Elm towards the front entrance. The entire distance is clearly more than 300 feet.

It seems you keep on making vague claims but are never able to back them up with anything conclusive or translate it into a coherent scenario. You rely completely on Adams not having misremembered where she saw Shelley and Lovelady, but are utterly incapable to explain what both women did in the four minutes directly after the shots and why Garner would say that the women went down before Truly and Baker came up.

In the scenario I propose, no witness is lying. Instead only Adams is misremembering where she saw Lovelady and Shelley.
In your scenario, Adams and Garner must both be lying for no obvious reason at all. In fact, Adams must have been lying from nearly the beginning, as she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63; "She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs".

Again, I have asked you several times now to provide evidence for this claim;

The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.

So, why haven't you produced it?

I went back to our discussion in July 2020 and found that I asked you the same question, although in a somewhat different way, and you were never able to come up with an answer.
It seems not much has changed in 3,5 years.

[Mitch Todd]

You're working from inaccurate transcripts.

Really? And why are you so sure your transcripts are the correct ones?

They're from O'Dell's work at coming up with a complete, skip and repeat free version of the Channel 2 Audiograph recording.  The WC transcripts (there's more than one per channel) aren't particularly accurate, a fact widely known by careful researchers for some time. The best channel one transcript is the one Shearer did using the Dave Dix tape. The best channel two transcript is the result of O'Dell's work.

Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.

Better check again. My quote is from a broadcast on channel 1. A few seconds earlier Harkness says on channel 2 "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm". In that broadcast he did not say;  "I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." He said that on channel 1.

The channel one Harkness "transmission"  isn't a separate transmission. It's a copy of the channel two transmission that's acoustically coupled over to channel one courtesy of that stuck microphone. This is also something that's been widely known for a while.

A copy of the O'Dell version of channel two can be found where here:

Harkness' transmission begins about 12:25.

Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds.
No, the transcript I am using for channel 2 is the one used by the WC. In that one Brewer's transmission begins after the dispatcher announced 12:37.

Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.

His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.

Speculation

No more so than your contention that "Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building" happening before Inspector Sawyer descended from the mountain. We don't know how long it actually took Brewer to get from the TOP  to the TSBD, or exactly what route or method he used.

In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.

Just because they can't be seen in the Martin film (which I haven't checked btw) doesn't mean there were no other officers there.

The Hughes film has a sequence showing the same events, taken from a bit further back and showing more of the TSBD front. Same thing: all the cops in the scene are going in the door. Still, it doesn't show the entire TSBD south side. Harkness testified that, when he showed up at the front of the TSBD, there were only two cops there with Sawyer.
 

Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (not a DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.

Really. Is there a clock visible or a timestamp on those photos? In any event, it's hardly relevant to the discussion as we are talking about the front entrance where Styles re-entered the building. I couldn't care less if all the doors to the annex at the west side were still wide open. Styles wasn't there.

You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.

You either ignored or missed what Sawyer said in his testimony;

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!

This of course means that Styles was photographed next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building between 12:36 and before 12:39 (at the latest)!

MW: By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!

You misrepresented what I said. I said, "the upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43"

"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering." If you read a bit more carefully, you'll notice that Sawyer makes exactly this distinction when he explicitly separates "be sure it was covered off properly" from  "posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out." See also my previous note about Harkness: there were only two cops out front when Sawyer showed up. Barnett was probably one of them, Barnett said that he positioned himself  near the corner of the building to watch both the south and east sides (but nothing about sealing the building off, or locking it down. As for the other officer, it's unclear if he was really watching the building at all. Not everyone thought that the shots came from the TSBD, after all.

The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later.

[Jack Nessan]

It's difficult to understand what you are actually trying to say in this messy post, but I'll give it a try.


The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

Yes, that's what I said in 2020 and still say today. I would just add this;

This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.

Dorothy Garner followed Adams and Styles out the office. After Adams and Styles had gone down, Garner stood next to the stairs and looked through the window next to it to see what was going on at the west side of the building. She should have seen and heard a person coming down from the 6th floor, but she didn't. She did however see Truly and a policeman (Baker) come up. That's why the remark in the Stroud letter (which was buried by Rankin) and Garner's comments to Barry Ernest are so important. Also, Vickie Adams is adamant that the stairs were so noisy that she would have heard anybody else coming down on the stairs, but she heard nothing!

So, although "Oswald" and the women could, in theory, have been on the stairs at the same time. Dorothy Garner makes that theory highly unlikely, if not impossible.

This is, of course, utter nosense. There is nothing that Harkness and Sawyer said that corrects the timeline in any significant way. Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at around 12:36, took 3 minutes to go up to the 4th floor (for whatever reason) and back down again.

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Sawyer isn't even firm on the exact time, as he could have been back from the 4th floor at no sooner than 12:37

When he arrived back at the front entrance, other officers had already sealed off the building.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.

Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building through the front door before it was locked down. That must have happened between 12:35 and 12:37.

And there was no encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor at 12:35. There is no corroboration for it from Shelley and Lovelady and it's physically impossible for Adams and Styles to be at the bottom of the stairs on the first floor at 12:35 and be at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37!

Here's a photograph of the TSBD showing the loading dock at the back, the area west of the building and the dead end street of Elm, next to the front of the building. Ignore the arrows!



It provides a clear view of how Adams and Styles walked. Down the stairs of the loading dock (somewhere near where the white car is parked), over the first set of tracks, along the curve (which is roughly where I believe they were stopped by a police man and where Shelley and Lovelady were), along the curved side of the annex building, at the end on the tracks closest to the TSBD extension [where it says "Oswald leaves the TSBD" - btw where the arrow starts is the door that Shelley and Lovelady used to re-enter the building], around that extension, turning left onto the dead end street of Elm towards the front entrance.

It seems you keep on making vague claims but are never able to back them up with anything conclusive or translate it into a coherent scenario. You rely completely on Adams not having misremembered where she saw Shelley and Lovelady, but are utterly incapable to explain what both women did in the four minutes directly after the shots and why Garner would say that the women went down before Truly and Baker came up.

In the scenario I propose, no witness is lying. Instead only Adams is misremembering where she saw Lovelady and Shelley.
In your scenario, Adams and Garner must both be lying for no obvious reason at all. In fact, Adams must have been lying from nearly the beginning, as she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63; "She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs".

Again, I have asked you several times now to provide evidence for this claim;

So, why haven't you produced it?

I went back to our discussion in July 2020 and found that I asked you the same question, although in a somewhat different way, and you were never able to come up with an answer.
It seems not much has changed in 3,5 years.

Martin Weidmann---12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,

 

12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36

Mr. HARKNESS - "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr. BELIN - All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr. BELIN - In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Asked for a squad.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

 

12:37 INSP Sawyer locks down the front door at 12:37

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

-----------------------------------------------------------
12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35

Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit  March 19, 1964:

“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”

This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.

Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.
 

[Martin Weidmann]

They're from O'Dell's work at coming up with a complete, skip and repeat free version of the Channel 2 Audiograph recording.  The WC transcripts (there's more than one per channel) aren't particularly accurate, a fact widely known by careful researchers for some time. The best channel one transcript is the one Shearer did using the Dave Dix tape. The best channel two transcript is the result of O'Dell's work.

The channel one Harkness "transmission"  isn't a separate transmission. It's a copy of the channel two transmission that's acoustically coupled over to channel one courtesy of that stuck microphone. This is also something that's been widely known for a while.

A copy of the O'Dell version of channel two can be found where here:

Harkness' transmission begins about 12:25.

Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.
No more so than your contention that "Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building" happening before Inspector Sawyer descended from the mountain. We don't know how long it actually took Brewer to get from the TOP  to the TSBD, or exactly what route or method he used.

The Hughes film has a sequence showing the same events, taken from a bit further back and showing more of the TSBD front. Same thing: all the cops in the scene are going in the door. Still, it doesn't show the entire TSBD south side. Harkness testified that, when he showed up at the front of the TSBD, there were only two cops there with Sawyer.
 
You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.

MW: By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!

You misrepresented what I said. I said, "the upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43"

"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering." If you read a bit more carefully, you'll notice that Sawyer makes exactly this distinction when he explicitly separates "be sure it was covered off properly" from  "posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out." See also my previous note about Harkness: there were only two cops out front when Sawyer showed up. Barnett was probably one of them, Barnett said that he positioned himself  near the corner of the building to watch both the south and east sides (but nothing about sealing the building off, or locking it down. As for the other officer, it's unclear if he was really watching the building at all. Not everyone thought that the shots came from the TSBD, after all.

The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later.

That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.

Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.

Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!

You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.

Not that it really matters much, as Styles re-entered the building through the front entrance, but why don't you just show the photo?

"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering."

That's just your opinion. You don't know if Sawyer shared that opinion. I refer to what I said about Sawyer in my previous post;

Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at around 12:36, took 3 minutes to go up to the 4th floor (for whatever reason) and back down again.

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Sawyer isn't even firm on the exact time, as he could have been back from the 4th floor at no sooner than 12:37

When he arrived back at the front entrance, other officers had already sealed off the building.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.

The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.

When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Obviously, the mere fact that Sawyer thought those instructions had not yet been given, doesn't mean that that was automatically correct.

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin Weidmann---12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,

12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36

Mr. HARKNESS - "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr. BELIN - All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr. BELIN - In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Asked for a squad.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

12:37 INSP Sawyer locks down the front door at 12:37

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

-----------------------------------------------------------
12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35

Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit  March 19, 1964:

“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”

This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.

Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.

12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36

When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.

As I have already stated in a previous post, Lovelady testified there were policemen running to the area west of the TSBD when he and Shelley were going there. That was well before the building was sealed off.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

I guess you just ignored that.

12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35

Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit  March 19, 1964:

“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”

This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.

Actually, it does no such thing. It just shows that Lovelady estimated that he and Shelley stayed in the area west of the building for approximately five minutes. There is no mention of Vickie Adams. That's all in your mind.

Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.

Well, I've asked you a number of times now for evidence to back up this claim;

The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.

and you still haven't provided it.... So, I'll guess, if I answer it for myself, the answer must be that you are just blowing smoke and haven't got a shred of evidence to prove anything.

In other words, nothing has changed in 3,5 years. But no worries, that's common for fanatical zealots who try to defend the indefensible.

[Jack Nessan]

12:36 -This encounter with the cop really takes place at 12:36, not at 12:33 as per the timeline, when the building is sealed off by Sargeant Harkness which he states as 12:36

When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.

As I have already stated in a previous post, Lovelady testified there were policemen running to the area west of the TSBD when he and Shelley were going there. That was well before the building was sealed off.

I guess you just ignored that.

12:35 Shelley, Lovelady encounter at 12:35


Bill Lovelady, FBI Affidavit  March 19, 1964:

“I recall, that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot that President Kennedy’s car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.....”

This coincides with Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor while hurrying to the back of the building.

Actually, it does no such thing. It just shows that Lovelady estimated that he and Shelley stayed in the area west of the building for approximately five minutes. There is no mention of Vickie Adams. That's all in your mind.

Feel free to ask all the questions you want. Make sure they are relevant or have purpose, or they are not something that is obvious, or about something you can answer for yourself.

Well, I've asked you a number of times now for evidence to back up this claim;

and you still haven't provided it.... So, I'll guess, if I answer it for myself, the answer must be that you are just blowing smoke and haven't got a shred of evidence to prove anything.

In other words, nothing has changed in 3,5 years. But no worries, that's common for fanatical zealots who try to defend the indefensible.

THEN:2020

Martin Weidmann Timeline----12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension, towards the parallel road in the front of the building.


NOW: 2024

MW-- “BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building, she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.”

MW--"The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;”

MW--“When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.

HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building?  Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.”  Which Sgt Harkness stated took place at 12:36. The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?

Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.

[Martin Weidmann]

THEN:2020

Martin Weidmann Timeline----12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension, towards the parallel road in the front of the building.


NOW: 2024

MW-- “BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building, she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.”

MW--"The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;”

MW--“When you start with a wrong assumption you will get a wrong answer. In this case the wrong assumption is that the police officer who told Adams to go back in the building was one of the officers that was sealing off the building.

HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building?  Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.”  Which Sgt Harkness stated took place at 12:36. The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?

Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.

I'm beginning to wonder if you live in your own fantasy world.

HUH? So what happened to the officer, now according to you. just wandering around and stopping them at the North West corner of the building?  Really, an officer telling them to go back into the building is passing the time of day with friendly conversation but apparently not “sealing off the building.”

Once again you misrepresent what I said. I never said anything about a police officer "just wandering around" or "passing the time of day with a friendly conversation". You seem to be under the flawed impression that every single police officer that ran towards the west area of the TSBD must have been part of the officers who were tasked with sealing off the building.

And, of course, you ignore that fact that Lovelady and Shelley were walking/running to that same area well before Sawyer arrived. Lovelady testified that he saw policemen running out that way.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

and Shelley testified that he "watched them to searching cars down there in the parking lots"

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?

This may be over your head, but the combined testimony of Lovelady and Shelley shows there were officers in the parking lot searching cars before Swayer had even arrived. You may think otherwise, but it's not unsual for police officer to tell people to return where they came from to prevent a potential crime scene from being contaminated.

The only people this officer is known to have told is Adams and Styles?

Yes, we don't know who else he told, but that doesn't really matter. We know that he told Adams and Styles and that's enough.

Speaking of asking questions. I asked, do you consider yourself an unreliable opinion. Don’t bother answering, I have the answer. It is yes. Multiple explanations to the same event.

It's clear by now that you don't like my time line, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. If I made a mistake you are more than welcome to tell me and provide at least a shred of evidence for it, instead of all sorts of assumptions.
In other words, if you can show that my time line doesn't work or is wrong, I'll be more than happy to be persuaded by your arguments. As it stands, however, you are not presenting much of an argument. In fact, all your previous comments about the time line seem now to have been reduced to a sort of unsupported claim that the officer who told Adams and Styles to return to the building was involved in the sealing of the evidence.

You could for instance start by presenting the evidence to back up this claim, as I have asked you to do multiple times;

The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere.

your obvious refusal to provide that evidence doesn't do your credibility any good.