Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Jack Nessan]

Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.
Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.
It's typical LN BS to dismiss everything the witnesses (in this case Adams and Garner) said, and call them liars (as Mytton did), except for the one part that fits their narrative but is physically simply impossible and does not match with all the other evidence.

So, let's follow the actual evidence and match up the statements!

Adams said she left the window immediately after the shots and went down the stairs. That took her roughly a minute (any longer and she would have run into Truly and Baker). Then she and Styles went down the stairs of the loading dock, turned left and ran towards the railway yard. That's another minute or so. They meet a policeman who tells them to return to the building, so they walk along side the annex of the building towards Elm street, there they turn left and walk along the front of the building towards the main entrance. That would have taken them another 2 minutes or so and gets them to the front door steps at roughly 12:34 or 12:35. Two minutes later Styles is photographed standing next to the steps.

The key point is that they would have been west of the building around 2 minutes or so after the shots, which is exactly when Lovelady and Shelley were there as well.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---

Lovelady confirms that they started running towards the railroad tracks after first talking to Gloria Calvary. While running towards the railway tracks he saw Truly and Baker enter the building. That puts the start of their run at around 20 to 30 seconds after the shots.

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Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

They then stayed about a estimated minute or a minute and a half at the west side of the building, which is roughly the same time Adams and Styles arrived at that location as well.

Shelley confirms Lovelady's statement;

Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.

Except Shelley estimated they stayed west of the building for "maybe a minute or two".

Obviously, these times are not precise to the exact second, but they are close enough to conclude that Shelley and Lovelady were west of the building at the same time Adams and Styles were there.

If Adams and Styles had waited at the window some 75 seconds, as Charles Collins tried to suggest, they would have run into Truly and Baker on the stairs. That didn't happen.
Also, in that scenario, Dorothy Garner would not have been able to hear the women go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up.

If they had stayed even longer at the window, they most likely would have missed Shelley and Lovelady all together, as they entered the TSBD through a door on the west side of the building and Adams and Styles came from behind the building. They also, in such a scenario, would not have been able to get to the front entrance before it was locked down.

You can twist and turn this thing anyway you like, but the only thing that you will never be able to get is Shelley and Lovelady standing somewhere on the first floor for Adams to see them as she came down the stairs. It simply doesn't match any scenario, although I fully expect that you will never accept that.

You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.

MW--Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.

I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?


MW--Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.

Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?

The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.

[Mitch Todd]

Here's a puzzle the LNs won't be able to solve.

They claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th window immediately after the shots and they use Adams' seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor as "proof".

The problem with that "proof" is that Shelley and Lovelady did not re-enter the TSBD until about 5 minutes after the shots, and we know for a fact that Styles re-entered the building at the front entrance before it was locked down at 12:36 (according to Sergeant Harkness). There's even a photograph of Styles standing next to the car of one of the officers who had just arrived there to lock down the building. We also know that Adams and Styles had to go down the stairs and then walk around the building to the front entrance.

If, as Mytton claims,

the LNs should be able to explain how Adams and Styles managed to get to the front entrance of the building at 12:36, if they indeed waited more than 30 seconds and did indeed see Shelley and Lovelady some 5 minutes after the shooting.

If they can't explain this, their entire claim is obviously bogus!

The bogus item here is the idea that the building was "locked down" at 12:36.

Harkness' 12:36 transmission reads: "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." That is, Harkness expresses the intent do lock down the building, and he hasn't begun to do it yet.

At the time Harkness made this transmission, he's at the west end of Old Elm, past the pergola, having just run into Amos Euins. He put Euins on the back of his trike, and drove him to the front of the TSBD. The Martin film shows Harkness trundling back to the TSBD with Euins on the back of his ride....while Inspector Sawyer's car pulls to the curb in the background. Sawyer, then, doesn't arrive at the TSBD until 12:36 at the earliest.

Once out of the car, Sawyer gets update on the situation by the officers there, then goes into the TSBD with them into the building. Sawyer's group takes the front elevator up to the 4th floor and looks around, running into Truly as he's on his way down from the roof. Seeing nothing incriminating on the fourth floor, Sawyer's group then takes the elevator back down to the first floor, then leave the building. This is the point in time where Sawyer says he stationed two officers at the front door with orders to no let anyone in or out.

Sawyer thought that three minutes elapsed from the time he got out of his car until he returned outside from the fourth floor expedition. So if arrives no earlier than 12:36, then the front door guard is posted no sooner than 12:39. I should point out that Sawyer's group spent enough time on the fourth floor that they made it back to a point near the back stairs for Truly to have seen them. Between 12:41 and 12:43 (and probably closer to 12:43 than 12:41) Sawyer makes his first broadcast of the afternoon, asking that more officers be sent to the TSBD. So Sawyer has to have returned from the 4th floor by then.

The upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43.


 
 

[Martin Weidmann]

You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.

MW--Hilarious. The suggestion that those women could walk three sides of the building in 2 minutes wearing high heels is just plain silly.

I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?


MW--Also, if Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35, it would mean they did not leave the 4th floor until four minutes after the shots and there isn't a shred of evidence for that.

Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?

The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.

You are forgetting the Officers. The officers were preventing people from leaving the building and were stationed directly behind the building. By Adams and Styles own statements they told them to return to the front and they did.

BS. The back of the building wasn't locked down until 12:36. There were no officers stationed behind the building before that. In the interview, Vickie Adams states that when she left the building she saw an officer standing near Houston street talking to a man in plain clothes, but they were not watching the building and didn't see her.

Mr. BELIN - Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?
Miss ADAMS - At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.
Mr. BELIN - No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

The officer(s) that told Adams and Styles to return to the building was at the west side of the building where Lovelady saw them;

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.


Adams confirms that she was already "within the tracks", which are west of the building, when a police officer told her to go back

Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

You can not produce a shred of evidence that there was an officer at the back of the building, because that's simply a lie!

I have no experience with running in high heels. Do you?

Funny. Yet you claim they could have run the distance of three sides of the building and partly on railroad tracks in two minutes. Go figure!

Yet that is what they said happened. You believe everything else they said but this?

I believe everything else they said simply because it matches all the other evidence. The only thing that doesn't fit is the location where Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady. LNs constantly complain about the fact that all the evidence should be considered combined, yet as soon as it becomes convenient you focus in on one anomaly (likely due to something being misremembered) and ignore everything else.

The evidence that Adams and Styles never left the 4th floor until four minutes after is everywhere. It is the evidence that Adams and Styles left the fourth floor immediately, which does not exist.

Anybody who says something this dumb doesn't know or understand the evidence or is simply lying.

Adams said she left the window immediately, which was confirmed by Garner. The latter also stated the women went down the stairs before Truly and a police man came up. It didn't take the men more than four minutes to get to the 4th floor.

But since you claim that there is evidence for a four minutes delay everywhere, why don't you simply produce it instead of merely claiming there is?

[Martin Weidmann]

The bogus item here is the idea that the building was "locked down" at 12:36.

Harkness' 12:36 transmission reads: "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." That is, Harkness expresses the intent do lock down the building, and he hasn't begun to do it yet.

At the time Harkness made this transmission, he's at the west end of Old Elm, past the pergola, having just run into Amos Euins. He put Euins on the back of his trike, and drove him to the front of the TSBD. The Martin film shows Harkness trundling back to the TSBD with Euins on the back of his ride....while Inspector Sawyer's car pulls to the curb in the background. Sawyer, then, doesn't arrive at the TSBD until 12:36 at the earliest.

Once out of the car, Sawyer gets update on the situation by the officers there, then goes into the TSBD with them into the building. Sawyer's group takes the front elevator up to the 4th floor and looks around, running into Truly as he's on his way down from the roof. Seeing nothing incriminating on the fourth floor, Sawyer's group then takes the elevator back down to the first floor, then leave the building. This is the point in time where Sawyer says he stationed two officers at the front door with orders to no let anyone in or out.

Sawyer thought that three minutes elapsed from the time he got out of his car until he returned outside from the fourth floor expedition. So if arrives no earlier than 12:36, then the front door guard is posted no sooner than 12:39. I should point out that Sawyer's group spent enough time on the fourth floor that they made it back to a point near the back stairs for Truly to have seen them. Between 12:41 and 12:43 (and probably closer to 12:43 than 12:41) Sawyer makes his first broadcast of the afternoon, asking that more officers be sent to the TSBD. So Sawyer has to have returned from the 4th floor by then.

The upshot is that there were no officers guarding the front door until at least 12:39, and maybe not until after 12:40. Perhaps as late as 12:43.

What makes you think that Sawyer did not leave a man behind at the front door when he entered the building?


12:36 Channel 1 260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness)   Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.

12:37 Channel 2 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer)   We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building
              Dispatcher   All right, do you have the building covered off?
             137   No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
              Dispatcher   All right, pull on down there.

Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building.

And Sawyer also testified;

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

You kinda left out the parts in bold. I can only wonder why.

Oh btw, Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and she entered the building before it was locked down. Adams tried to follow her a couple of minutes later and was stopped.

[Mitch Todd]

What makes you think that Sawyer did not leave a man behind at the front door when he entered the building?


12:36 Channel 1 260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness)   Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.

12:37 Channel 2 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer)   We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building
              Dispatcher   All right, do you have the building covered off?
             137   No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
              Dispatcher   All right, pull on down there.

Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building.

Oh btw, Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car and she entered the building before it was locked down. Adams tried to follow her a couple of minutes later and was stopped.

You're working from inaccurate transcripts. Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.

Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds. His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.

In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.

Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (nota DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.

[Martin Weidmann]

You're working from inaccurate transcripts. Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.

Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds. His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.

In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.

Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (nota DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.

You're working from inaccurate transcripts.

Really? And why are you so sure your transcripts are the correct ones?

Harkness 12:36 transmission actually is "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." What you've quoted, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." is close, but not correct.

Better check again. My quote is from a broadcast on channel 1. A few seconds earlier Harkness says on channel 2 "I have a witness that says came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm". In that broadcast he did not say;  "I have him with me now. We're going to seal off the building." He said that on channel 1.

Brewer's transmission begins right after the dispatcher announce "12:38" and lasts about 20 seconds.
No, the transcript I am using for channel 2 is the one used by the WC. In that one Brewer's transmission begins after the dispatcher announced 12:37.

His motorcycle was shut down at the time he made the transmission. We don't know how long he took to work his way to the TSBD, or even if he used his ride or simply walked. By 12:38, the pent-up traffic on Elm is beginning to flow westward through Dealey Plaza, and Brewer's machine is pointed the wrong way. He may not have wanted to continue riding the wrong way on Elm.

Speculation

In the Martin film, the sequence just after the scene with Harkness and Euins shows a police officer with SGT stripes on his sleeve ushering in another officer and a civilian through the front door of the TSBD, before turning to go in as well. There were no other officers left to stand guard. The only Sergeant in Dealey Plaza at that time was Harkness. Sawyer thought that Harness was one of the officers who went with him to the 4th floor, but wasn't sure.

Just because they can't be seen in the Martin film (which I haven't checked btw) doesn't mean there were no other officers there.

Also, photos of the TSBD in the aftermath of the shooting show that the red gates on the building's south side were open at least as late as 12:40. It was Luke Mooney (nota DPD officer) who had a TSBD employee close them and stop any one from entering or exiting through that portal. This indicates that the TSBD had not been locked down by the DPD by at least 12:40.

Really. Is there a clock visible or a timestamp on those photos? In any event, it's hardly relevant to the discussion as we are talking about the front entrance where Styles re-entered the building. I couldn't care less if all the doors to the annex at the west side were still wide open. Styles wasn't there.

You either ignored or missed what Sawyer said in his testimony;

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

By your own claim Sawyer returned to the front entrance from the 4th floor at 12:39. By then they already had the lockdown covered!

This of course means that Styles was photographed next to Sawyer's car and re-entered the building between 12:36 and before 12:39 (at the latest)!

[John Mytton]

What makes you think that Sawyer did not leave a man behind at the front door when he entered the building?


12:36 Channel 1 260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness)   Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.

12:37 Channel 2 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer)   We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building
              Dispatcher   All right, do you have the building covered off?
             137   No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
              Dispatcher   All right, pull on down there.

Brewer was 3/4 of block away from the TSBD and went down there to lock down the building.

 

I'm so glad you are embracing the Dallas Police Radio Tapes!

1:16  Citizen   Hello, police operator?       
         Dispatcher   Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.       
       Citizen   There's been a shooting out here.       
       Dispatcher   Where's it at?       
         Dispatcher   The citizen using the police radio . . .       
       Citizen   Tenth Street.       
       Dispatcher   What location on Tenth Street?       
       Citizen   Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404         Tenth Street.       
       Dispatcher   Can you hear me?       
        (Man and woman's voices in background)       
       Dispatcher   78.       
       Citizen   It's in a police car, number 10.       
       Dispatcher   78.       
       Dispatcher (?)   78.       
       Citizen   Got that?       
       Citizen   Hello, police operator. Did you get that?       
       Dispatcher   Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.       
       Citizen   Thank you.       
       35 (Ptm. J.M. Lewis)   35.       
       259 (unknown)   259.       
       Dispatcher   The citizen using the police radio: Remain off the radio now.

1:19       602 (ambulance)   What was that address on Jefferson?
           Dispatcher   501 East Tenth.

JohnM