JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Steve Barber on June 26, 2026, 03:15:15 PM
-
Here are three crucial Zapruder film frames that dispel the theory that President Kennedy "grabs","grabbed" or "clutched his throat".
Note that his right hand immediately jerks upward, and either in front of his mouth or over it. His upper body is also thrust forward, twice as his right hand appears to cover his mouth.
Note that, except for the forefinger on his left hand, his fingers are curled, and is either against the under side of his right hand, or just below it. Neither hand goes toward his throat, or anywhere near it.
Also note in frame 248, JFK's right hand is at cheek level. He has turned his head slightly to his left, while his hand is still at the same level it was in over/in front of his mouth.
(https://i.ibb.co/TBxCmrvy/vlcsnap-2026-06-25-13h24m27s591.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/KpXxVsQs/vlcsnap-2026-06-25-13h29m34s162.png)
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/RG61qvZH/vlcsnap-2026-06-25-13h30m28s293.png)
-
Here are three crucial Zapruder film frames that dispel the theory that President Kennedy "grabs" ,"grabbed" or "clutched his throat".
Note that his right hand immediately jerks upward, and either in front of his mouth, or over it. His upper body is also thrust forward, twice-one after the other- as his right hand meets his mouth.
Note that, except for the forefinger on his left hand, his fingers are curled under, and is either against the under side of his right hand or just below it. Neither hand goes toward his throat, or anywhere near it. Also note in frame 248, JFK's right hand is at cheek level. He has turned his head slightly to his left, while his hand is still at the same level it was in over/in front of his mouth.
This really doesn't make much of a difference either way, but I agree that this is what the film shows. For a time, his hands are moving toward and then reach the level of his throat, but then they continue to move upward and end up at his mouth.
It is not inaccurate to say that at first his hands are moving toward the level of his throat, but it is inaccurate to say that he grabs or clutches his throat.
-
This really doesn't make much of a difference either way, but I agree that this is what the film shows. For a time, his hands are moving toward and then reach the level of his throat, but then they continue to move upward and end up at his mouth.
It makes a great deal of difference in my opinion. People have been misinterpreting what President Kennedy is doing when he's struck by the first shot for years, and not only with the first bullet to strike him, but the fatal shot as well. This is not something people should be doing when describing what happens in the film.
It is not inaccurate to say that at first his hands are moving toward the level of his throat, but it is inaccurate to say that he grabs or clutches his throat.
I believe it is inaccurate to say that his hands are moving toward the level of his throat, to a great degree. They quickly pass his throat on the way to where they stopped-but there is absolutely no hesitation or indication of JFK's hands going anywhere but where they ended up. The film clearly shows this when played at regular speed.
-
This is one of the reasons I dismiss Nellie Connally's account of the assassination. In her version, JFK clutched his throat. I'll cut her some slack. Under the circumstances, it's perfectly understandable why she would be so bewildered about what was happening inside the car.
-
Here are three crucial Zapruder film frames that dispel the theory that President Kennedy "grabs","grabbed" or "clutched his throat".
Note that his right hand immediately jerks upward, and either in front of his mouth or over it. His upper body is also thrust forward, twice as his right hand appears to cover his mouth.
Note that, except for the forefinger on his left hand, his fingers are curled, and is either against the under side of his right hand, or just below it. Neither hand goes toward his throat, or anywhere near it.
Also note in frame 248, JFK's right hand is at cheek level. He has turned his head slightly to his left, while his hand is still at the same level it was in over/in front of his mouth.
(https://i.ibb.co/TBxCmrvy/vlcsnap-2026-06-25-13h24m27s591.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/KpXxVsQs/vlcsnap-2026-06-25-13h29m34s162.png)
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/RG61qvZH/vlcsnap-2026-06-25-13h30m28s293.png)
Another misnomer that is routinely accepted as being true, is the distance between JFK and Jackie. People routinely claim that Jackie was extremely close to JFK and that a (R) front shot would have struck here too. As can be seen above, there was plenty of space between JFK and Jackie. Same goes for the Z Frames leading up to 313. I think people viewing the Z Film get subconsciously caught up in 313 being almost directly in front of Zapruder and then believe the 313 fired shot was fired from that same angle. Not true.
-
What is being suggested - that this is just the Thorburn reflex from a bullet hitting the cervical spine?
-
What is being suggested - that this is just the Thorburn reflex from a bullet hitting the cervical spine?
I'm not suggesting anything.
I am pointing out that President Kennedy never touched his throat like just about everyone claims when they mention his reaction to being shot by the first bullet to hit him. Clearly, his hands never went for his throat. Ever. His right hand and arm jerk upward, his hand is open, giving the appearance that his hand is covering his mouth, while his arm is splayed upward and folded at the elbow.
Too many people watch the Zapruder film at slower than normal speed because too many people post the Zapruder film onto YouTube at a speed slower than 18.3 frames per second and overlook how fast his right comes up in front of his face to mouth level. The left hand is clearly not touching his throat either. as can clearly be seen.
-
What is being suggested - that this is just the Thorburn reflex from a bullet hitting the cervical spine?
I am aware of the Thorburn reflex but I am totally unqualified to offer an opinion as to whether that is what we see in that footage. The bullet did not hit the spine. It hit near the spine. I have seen similar responses on the football field when a player sustains a severe head injury.
-
I'm not suggesting anything.
I am pointing out that President Kennedy never touched his throat like just about everyone claims when they mention his reaction to the first shot. Clearly, he never went for his throat. Ever. His right hand and arm jerk upward, his hand is open, giving the appearance that his hand is covering his mouth, while his arm is splayed upward and folded at the elbow.
Too many people watch the Zapruder film at slower than normal speed because too many people post the Zapruder film onto YouTube at a speed slower than 18.3 frames per second and overlook how fast his right comes up in front of his face to mouth level. The left hand is clearly not touching his throat either. as can clearly be seen.
Which raises the question of why a man shot in the Back, is covering his mouth?
-
I am aware of the Thorburn reflex but I am totally unqualified to offer an opinion as to whether that is what we see in that footage. The bullet did not hit the spine. It hit near the spine. I have seen similar responses on the football field when I player sustains a severe head injury.
This "head injury" stuff explains much.
-
I'm not suggesting anything.
I am pointing out that President Kennedy never touched his throat like just about everyone claims when they mention his reaction to the first shot. Clearly, he never went for his throat. Ever. His right hand and arm jerk upward, his hand is open, giving the appearance that his hand is covering his mouth, while his arm is splayed upward and folded at the elbow.
Too many people watch the Zapruder film at slower than normal speed because too many people post the Zapruder film onto YouTube at a speed slower than 18.3 frames per second and overlook how fast his right comes up in front of his face to mouth level. The left hand is clearly not touching his throat either. as can clearly be seen.
Looking at the Altgens photo it appears JFK's mouth is distorted from a shock to his spine and/or nerves.
(https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/2018/mantik-wagner-2/altgens-6.png)
-
SB-
Thanks for posting, that is interesting. I have been aware for some time that JFK balls his fists more than clutches anything after being shot the first time, but you bring a clarifying perspective.
The more I looked at the frame Z-248 you provided, the more it looks like JFK actually turns and look to his own left towards Jackie. In this same frame Z-248 frame, Gov. JBC can be seen holding onto his Stetson hat, despite, by the SBT-LNT, having been short through the wrist with a large Western Cartridge 6.5 slug. A shot that left a large hole in the radius bone near his wrist, seen in x-rays.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFjsFswb/Screen-Shot-2569-06-27-at-12-41-51.png)
I may post soon on what Secret Service agent Paul Landis belatedly related.
I have long had reasonable doubts about the SBT-LNT.
Some suspect the shot that apparently strikes JFK ~Z-220 never passed through his body, and cite the finger probe of Dr. Hume to the effect. Hume found only a shallow hole.
If Landis' account is accurate, one explanation is that the first shot to strike JFK was underpowered, and penetrated only marginally, and then fell out onto the back seat of the limo, where is was found by Landis. That is the real CE-399 slug, not the one found by Tomlinson later.
Just IMHO.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
-
SB-
Thanks for posting, that is interesting. I have been aware for some time that JFK balls his fists more than clutches anything after being shot the first time, but you bring a clarifying perspective.
The more I looked at the frame Z-248 you provided, the more it looks like JFK actually turns and look to his own left towards Jackie. In this same frame Z-248 frame, Gov. JBC can be seen holding onto his Stetson hat, despite, by the SBT-LNT, having been short through the wrist with a large Western Cartridge 6.5 slug. A shot that left a large hole in the radius bone near his wrist, seen in x-rays.
I may post soon on what Secret Service agent Paul Landis belatedly related.
I have long had reasonable doubts about the SBT-LNT.
Some suspect the shot that apparently strikes JFK ~Z-220 never passed through his body, and cite the finger probe of Dr. Hume to the effect. Hume found only a shallow hole.
If Landis' account is accurate, one explanation is that the first shot to strike JFK was underpowered, and penetrated only marginally, and then fell out onto the back seat of the limo, where is was found by Landis. That is the real CE-399 slug, not the on fund by Tomlinson later.
Just IMHO.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
It is truly preposterous to theorize that a bullet fired from a Carcano rifle is only going to penetrate a few inches into soft flesh. By contrast, the .38 Special that Ruby fired into the left side of Oswald's abdomen penetrated all the way to his right side, bulging out the skin without breaking it. It shredded the organs in between. The .38 Special has roughly half the muzzle velocity of a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. The latter can penetrate 3 feet of pine board. Before someone counters with the underpowered bullet argument, don't bother. A bullet traveling that slowly, a few hundred fps, is not going to hold its trajectory. Gravity would cause the bullet to fall well short of the intended target. If Oswald had fired a round that week, the bullet would have probably landed somewhere on the trunk of the limo if it reached the limo at all.
-
After looking at medical illustrations of the Thorburn reflex, I thought perhaps JFK's reaction was too extreme and/or too long. However, the Thorburn reflex can actually last quite a long time. What we see in JFK is somewhat more extreme than the illustrations I could find, but both Dr. Lattimer and Dr. Payette are of the opinion that this is indeed the Thorburn reflex. (Non-interesting sidelight: Right out of law school I joined a very prestigious firm called Fennemore Craig Udall von Ammon & Powers. On the first day, new associates were warned FOR GOD'S SAKE don't EVER casually use the term "opinion" unless you are rendering a formal opinion because the term has a technical meaning and you will bind the firm's malpractice insurer to your inane "opinions" if you casually bandy this term about in your correspondence and pontifications.)
-
JC-
Years ago I did the math on the drop of a bullet at 300 fps over 70 years, and it wasn't much.
AI version:
At 300 fps, a heavy bullet like a .30-06 drops approximately 8.5 to 9 inches at 70 yards.
So a shot aimed at JFK's head from the TSBD6 would drop down to about where he was struck in the back. Remember, I said an underpowered bullet. Many witnesses describe the first shot as faint, or different in pitch and volume, from succeeding shots.
Maybe LHO hand-packed his first shot, as he seemed rather thin on ammo.
Then there is this:
AI version:
A bullet traveling at 300 fps at 70 yards will likely penetrate about 1 to 2 inches (2.5 to 5 cm) into human tissue. Because 300 fps is roughly the speed of an airsoft gun or a highly spent projectile, it generally lacks the energy to shatter bone or reach vital organs.
So, an underpowered hits JFK were it did, but was possibly dis-jarred by the shock wave through his body by the shot at Z-313.
This narrative rests on Paul Landis being accurate in his recollections.
-
Which raises the question of why a man shot in the Back, is covering his mouth?
Great point, Royell. Please see my response to Jarrett Smith, below).
-
Looking at the Altgens photo it appears JFK's mouth is distorted from a shock to his spine and/or nerves.
(https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/2018/mantik-wagner-2/altgens-6.png)
Hi Jarrett,
Both yourself and Royell Storing have brought up a very good points regarding President Kennedy's mouth.
Although I have no proof that this it happened, I have often wondered if President Kennedy gagged once the bullet ripped through his throat, thus he threw his hand up and over his mouth. He makes two jerking motions as he exits from behind the Stemmons sign. The first is a very sudden head-nod motion, and the second looks like a possible gagging/heaving motion. I made a similar post to this group a few years ago regarding JFK's hands, and one of the people who read the thread pointed out that it looked to him like JFK wipes his mouth off as he's turning his head to his left. Since then, I've wondered myself if he didn't do this, and wondered if JFK could have both gagged on blood in his mouth, and the terrible feeling he must have suffered as the bullet tore through his throat.
The Altgen's photo you've posted here is interesting regarding the unusual position of his mouth. ( Your copy is much clearer than anything I've seen-even blown up). I thought it looks like his tongue is partially sticking out over his lower lip, and I've always thought the whole area showing him is a bit odd, and I made some graphics splicing his image because in some ways, his head position makes no sense to me, nor does his mouth position. (See the graphic below). In your copy of Altgens here, it ALMOST looks like blood running down his chin-which I've never noticed in other copies of Altgens 6.
Thanks for bringing this up regarding JFK's mouth position.
(https://i.ibb.co/RdwH4SK/jfk.png)
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/2YRn0qtG/jfk-top.png)
-
JC-
Years ago I did the math on the drop of a bullet at 300 fps over 70 years, and it wasn't much.
AI version:
At 300 fps, a heavy bullet like a .30-06 drops approximately 8.5 to 9 inches at 70 yards.
So a shot aimed at JFK's head from the TSBD6 would drop down to about where he was struck in the back. Remember, I said an underpowered bullet. Many witnesses describe the first shot as faint, or different in pitch and volume, from succeeding shots.
Your math skills are about as bad as your analytical skills.
70 yards is 210 feet. At 300 fps, it would take 0.7 seconds for the bullet to travel 210 feet. Here is how AI calculated the distance the bullet would drop.
Distance Fallen in 0.7 Seconds Near Earth’s Surface
For an object in free fall from rest near Earth’s surface, the distance fallen after time
where:
d = distance fallen (meters)
g = acceleration due to gravity ≈ 9.81 m/s²
t = time fallen (seconds) The Physics Classroom+1
Substitute
t = 0.7s:
d = 1/2 × 9.81 × (0.7)squared
d = 4.905 × 0.49
d ≈ 2.40
meters
Answer: The object will fall about 2.40 meters in 0.7 seconds, assuming it starts from rest and air resistance is negligible.
Maybe LHO hand-packed his first shot, as he seemed rather thin on ammo.
It doesn't matter why the bullet was underpowered. It wouldn't effect the gravitational drop.
Then there is this:
AI version:
A bullet traveling at 300 fps at 70 yards will likely penetrate about 1 to 2 inches (2.5 to 5 cm) into human tissue. Because 300 fps is roughly the speed of an airsoft gun or a highly spent projectile, it generally lacks the energy to shatter bone or reach vital organs.
So, an underpowered hits JFK were it did, but was possibly dis-jarred by the shock wave through his body by the shot at Z-313.
This narrative rests on Paul Landis being accurate in his recollections.
Your narrative rests on accurately calculating the amount of drop. 2.4 meters is roughly 8 feet. A shot falling that far isn't going to come anywhere near JFK.
-
Maybe LHO hand-packed his first shot, as he seemed rather thin on ammo.
Reloading requires crimping the shell to hold the bullet and setting the primer. It's not something you do by hand. Back in the day, when I had my own Rock-Chucker reloading setup, I was as careful as I could be and still managed to produce an embarrassing number of duds. However, even what I am calling a dud just generally means the bullet tumbles and doesn't spin as it should. For a 30.06 reload of any sort to be traveling 300 FPS sounds highly unlikely.
-
The choking issue works both ways. A shot from the Front would also impact the interior of JFK's throat and cause gagging. Blood possibly coming out of the mouth? I'm not aware of anyone at Parkland Hospital or anyone in general reporting seeing blood on the mouth, in the mouth, or on the chin of JFK. And remember that they placed SA Hill's jacket over JFK's head. Those SS agents were getting a a very good look at JFK then. I do think gagging is going on. Like somebody gagging on food stuck in their throat, JFK's gagging could be a bullet lodged in his throat. This mandated the enlarging of the tracheostomy to remove it.
-
Although I have no proof that this it happened, I have often wondered if President Kennedy gagged once the bullet ripped through his throat, thus he threw his hand up and over his mouth. He makes two jerking motions as he exits from behind the Stemmons sign. The first is a very sudden head-nod motion, and the second looks like a possible gagging/heaving motion. I made a similar post to this group a few years ago regarding JFK's hands, and one of the people who read the thread pointed out that it looked to him like JFK wipes his mouth off as he's turning his head to his left. Since then, I've wondered myself if he didn't do this, and wondered if JFK could have both gagged on blood in his mouth, and the terrible feeling he must have suffered as the bullet tore through his throat.
That does not look to me, or apparently to most other medical professionals :D, like an intentional series of movements. "I am gagging and am going to wipe the blood off my mouth now." That looks to me like a completely reflexive (i.e., Thorburn-like) reaction to a neurological stimulus.
The analysis of Altgens6 looks suspiciously like pareidolia to me. I'm not convinced we're seeing his mouth at all, let alone in the level of detail being suggested. I brought this up to maximum magnification on my screen and examined it with a magnifying glass, and I was still left saying "Ya got me." I did see Bogus Haygood Imposter there in the corner, however.
(https://www.researchgate.net/publication/399066871/figure/fig3/AS:11431281814084246@1766666243027/Enlarged-gate-of-the-Texas-School-book-depository-from-Figure-2-see-above.jpg)
-
I'm not suggesting anything.
I am pointing out that President Kennedy never touched his throat like just about everyone claims when they mention his reaction to the first shot. Clearly, he never went for his throat. Ever. His right hand and arm jerk upward, his hand is open, giving the appearance that his hand is covering his mouth, while his arm is splayed upward and folded at the elbow.
Too many people watch the Zapruder film at slower than normal speed because too many people post the Zapruder film onto YouTube at a speed slower than 18.3 frames per second and overlook how fast his right comes up in front of his face to mouth level. The left hand is clearly not touching his throat either. as can clearly be seen.
Even before I saw David Von Pein's excellent website on the SBT, it appeared to me when looking at the Z-film at normal speed that JFK's upward movement of his arms coincideed with his reappearance from behind the sign. It was only after seeing DVP's webpage that I realized there was a one frame delay between his reappearance and the upward movement of the arms. The naked eye can't detect that one frame delay of 1/18 of a second between his reappearance and the upward movement of his arms.
Also when looking are the Z-film at normal speed, it appears JBC's gyrations began almost immediately after he reappeared. His bending and twisting to the right began less than a second after he reappeared from behind that sign. His arm flip started about a quarter second after he reappeared and his dip to the right occurred about a half second after that.
-
Even before I saw David Von Pein's excellent website on the SBT, it appeared to me when looking at the Z-film at normal speed that JFK's upward movement of his arms coincideed with his reappearance from behind the sign. It was only after seeing DVP's webpage that I realized there was a one frame delay between his reappearance and the upward movement of the arms. The naked eye can't detect that one frame delay of 1/18 of a second between his reappearance and the upward movement of his arms.
Also when looking are the Z-film at normal speed, it appears JBC's gyrations began almost immediately after he reappeared. His bending and twisting to the right began less than a second after he reappeared from behind that sign. His arm flip started about a quarter second after he reappeared and his dip to the right occurred about a half second after that.
Aside from Royell now thinking JFK was gagging on a bullet stuck in his throat like a recalcitrant meatball - which was of course entirely predictable from Team Royell - I am still somewhat lost as to what all this has to do with anything.
Nellie Connally, whom most folks here seem convinced was a hallucinatory housewife unworthy of being taken seriously, told CBS "The first sound, the first shot, I heard, and turned and looked right into the President's face. He was clutching his throat, and just slumped down. He just had a look of nothingness on his face." At the WC, she said JFK "reached up to his throat," "had both hands on his throat," and "it seemed to me there was - he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down." Apart from whether JFK was actually clutching his throat, Nellie's observations seem hard to square with gagging and wiping blood.
In my extensive research of this issue ::), I did discover that Josiah Thompson and Pat Speer were in agreement way back in 2010 that the Thorburn reflex argument had been a "dead puppy" (Tink's phrase) for years and had been invented by Medical Quack Lattimer and promoted by Lying Fiend Posner to prop up the SBT and disguise the fact that JFK and JBC were hit by different shots. Here is what most folks seem to regard as the definitive refutation of the Thorburn argument: http://www.assassinationweb.com/milam-thor.htm. Based on this, Dr. Payette revises his opinion to "I have no clue and don't really care. What's for lunch?"
It is interesting how consistently - and I mean CONSISTENTLY - the phrase "clutching his throat" is used in reference to JFK and specifically Altgens6 as though it were mandatory. However, at the Ed Forum there were those who pointed out that JFK is not really "clutching" his throat.
Dr. Payette still maintains - while eschewing the term "opinion" - that what we see is in fact a reflex. James Gordon - remember him? - made the following point along the same lines in 2012. He suggested that while what we see may not in fact be exactly a Thorburn reaction, it is a reflex from nerve damage:
I thought I made it clear that the “Thorburn Reflex” was not necessarily my position. I certainly intended to make that clear. Having said that, what is described as this “Reflex” perfectly reflects what we see JFK doing with his arms.
The main point of my previous post was that the strange event of JFK’s arms were a direct consequence of the nerve damage when C7 was struck by the bullet. As I have pointed out the damage to that muscle is so extensive it was bound to have a consequence on the nerve structure attached to these muscle and the spinal cord directly behind the muscles. The reason I raised “Thorburn’s Reflex” was because that state suggests that once enacted it is difficult move the arms. The nerves that cause this don’t allow it. In the image below I have taken a series of frames to illustrate this point. Even with Jackie attempting to move the left arm it will not move. It is only when the head shot takes place, which destroys the entire nerve system, that the arms relax.
What I am trying to point out is that the impact with C7 did not just damage that Transverse Process, it also severely damaged the Intervertebral Disc C06 C07. And that damage had a major impact on the Cervical Nerves. It is that damage that caused the arms to rise and lock. They were only released when the entire nervous system was destroyed or severely damaged by the head shot.
The frames that James references are Z249, 273, 277, 308, 316. His post is here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=181318;topic=5057.21.
-
I'm not suggesting anything.
I am pointing out that President Kennedy never touched his throat like just about everyone claims when they mention his reaction to the first shot. Clearly, he never went for his throat. Ever. His right hand and arm jerk upward, his hand is open, giving the appearance that his hand is covering his mouth, while his arm is splayed upward and folded at the elbow.
Too many people watch the Zapruder film at slower than normal speed because too many people post the Zapruder film onto YouTube at a speed slower than 18.3 frames per second and overlook how fast his right comes up in front of his face to mouth level. The left hand is clearly not touching his throat either. as can clearly be seen.
I have no idea how people got the impression that JFK was clutching at his throat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCGN2KPc/IMG-2829.jpg)
-
Aside from Royell now thinking JFK was gagging on a bullet stuck in his throat like a recalcitrant meatball - which was of course entirely predictable from Team Royell - I am still somewhat lost as to what all this has to do with anything.
Nellie Connally, whom most folks here seem convinced was a hallucinatory housewife unworthy of being taken seriously, told CBS "The first sound, the first shot, I heard, and turned and looked right into the President's face. He was clutching his throat, and just slumped down. He just had a look of nothingness on his face." At the WC, she said JFK "reached up to his throat," "had both hands on his throat," and "it seemed to me there was - he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down." Apart from whether JFK was actually clutching his throat, Nellie's observations seem hard to square with gagging and wiping blood.
In my extensive research of this issue ::), I did discover that Josiah Thompson and Pat Speer were in agreement way back in 2010 that the Thorburn reflex argument had been a "dead puppy" (Tink's phrase) for years and had been invented by Medical Quack Lattimer and promoted by Lying Fiend Posner to prop up the SBT and disguise the fact that JFK and JBC were hit by different shots. Here is what most folks seem to regard as the definitive refutation of the Thorburn argument: http://www.assassinationweb.com/milam-thor.htm. Based on this, Dr. Payette revises his opinion to "I have no clue and don't really care. What's for lunch?"
It is interesting how consistently - and I mean CONSISTENTLY - the phrase "clutching his throat" is used in reference to JFK and specifically Altgens6 as though it were mandatory. However, at the Ed Forum there were those who pointed out that JFK is not really "clutching" his throat.
Dr. Payette still maintains - while eschewing the term "opinion" - that what we see is in fact a reflex. James Gordon - remember him? - made the following point along the same lines in 2012. He suggested that while what we see may not in fact be exactly a Thorburn reaction, it is a reflex from nerve damage:
I thought I made it clear that the “Thorburn Reflex” was not necessarily my position. I certainly intended to make that clear. Having said that, what is described as this “Reflex” perfectly reflects what we see JFK doing with his arms.
The main point of my previous post was that the strange event of JFK’s arms were a direct consequence of the nerve damage when C7 was struck by the bullet. As I have pointed out the damage to that muscle is so extensive it was bound to have a consequence on the nerve structure attached to these muscle and the spinal cord directly behind the muscles. The reason I raised “Thorburn’s Reflex” was because that state suggests that once enacted it is difficult move the arms. The nerves that cause this don’t allow it. In the image below I have taken a series of frames to illustrate this point. Even with Jackie attempting to move the left arm it will not move. It is only when the head shot takes place, which destroys the entire nerve system, that the arms relax.
What I am trying to point out is that the impact with C7 did not just damage that Transverse Process, it also severely damaged the Intervertebral Disc C06 C07. And that damage had a major impact on the Cervical Nerves. It is that damage that caused the arms to rise and lock. They were only released when the entire nervous system was destroyed or severely damaged by the head shot.
The frames that James references are Z249, 273, 277, 308, 316. His post is here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=181318;topic=5057.21.
Why is it necessary to think Nellie was hallucinating to determine that she didn't perceive the event accurately? The shooting caught everyone by surprised and three shots were fired in less than 9 seconds, her husband was seriously wounded and the President was murdered in that short span of time. It must have been a bewildering experience. Frankly, it would be amazing if she was able to coolly recall what happened and the order in which things occurred. I would think it would be a blur to her.
-
Why is it necessary to think Nellie was hallucinating to determine that she didn't perceive the event accurately? The shooting caught everyone by surprised and three shots were fired in less than 9 seconds, her husband was seriously wounded and the President was murdered in that short span of time. It must have been a bewildering experience. Frankly, it would be amazing if she was able to coolly recall what happened and the order in which things occurred. I would think it would be a blur to her.
The point being, she observed absolutely no expression, no blood, nothing indicative of gagging, attempting to wipe blood away, etc., etc., such as has been suggested here. "You would think" it would be a blur to her? Well, OK, but it clearly wasn't a blur to her. In your epistemology, eyewitnesses sitting feet or even inches away are inevitably hopelessly confused and completely unreliable. This was the very first thing she observed in the entire sequence - what reason is there to think she was bewildered? Jackie likewise, to the best of my knowledge, never said anything about JFK gagging or wiping blood. There is every reason to think that JFK's bizarre movements, and Jackie's inability to "unlock" his arms, are consistent with an involuntary neurological reaction - as are Nellie's observations.
-
At page 116 of this thread, Dan O'Meara has an extended discussion as to why JFK's rapid and bizarre arm movements must be attributed to a reflex action from a shot at Z223-224 (yay, Dan!). Andrew Mason points out that we cannot see JFK between Z207-224 and that there is evidence of a beginning of a reaction with hand movements before Z207 (yay, Andrew!). Assuming that what we see is indeed a neurological reflex reaction, it would be interesting to see a qualified medical discussion as to how such a reaction might evolve - i.e., must it be instantaneous (or virtually so) or might it progress from what we see before Z207 to what we see at Z225?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2723.805.html
-
The point being, she observed absolutely no expression, no blood, nothing indicative of gagging, attempting to wipe blood away, etc., etc., such as has been suggested here. "You would think" it would be a blur to her? Well, OK, but it clearly wasn't a blur to her.
Why is that clear. What is clear is she didn't remember things happened the way Zapruder's camera did.
In your epistemology, eyewitnesses sitting feet or even inches away are inevitably hopelessly confused and completely unreliable.
You can be too close to an event to see it clearly. It narrows the focus.
This was the very first thing she observed in the entire sequence - what reason is there to think she was bewildered?
Are you serious? She just saw her husband seriously wounded and the President murdered in a gruesome way and you think she would just calmly take it all in. Ridiculous J
ackie likewise, to the best of my knowledge, never said anything about JFK gagging or wiping blood. There is every reason to think that JFK's bizarre movements, and Jackie's inability to "unlock" his arms, are consistent with an involuntary neurological reaction - as are Nellie's observations.
Neither's testimony spot on. JFK's arms did not remain locked in a raised postion. By Z312 his elbows were back down.
-
I have no idea how people got the impression that JFK was clutching at his throat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCGN2KPc/IMG-2829.jpg)
The "clutching of the throat" originated way back. Back when versions of the Z Film in the public domain were very low definition. As time passes and the Image Evidence becomes clearer, issues such as Steve Barber is raising become relevant. That said, I do believe there have always been those with high definition images. They revel in seeing serious JFK Assassination Researchers chasing their tails. This includes the Fake Newser's that continue to sit on their original copies of the Assassination Films. Wiegman Film, Darnell Film, etc.
-
Ye gods, am I ever bored. The winds are 60 mph and I'm trapped inside. I did find this 2021 thread from the McAdams forum in which several of this forum's participants - including John C, Steve G, and Mark U weighed in (along with wacky Gil Jesus, who steered us to a YouTube video proving - PROVING, I tell you! - that JFK was attempting to cough up a
recalcitrant meatball bullet): https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/mIy5MUtYgYg.
Mark made the same point I do here (yay, Mark!): what we see with JFK is indeed a neuromuscular reaction but NOT the Thorburn reaction. Indeed, one of the criticisms of Lattimer's claim in the article I linked was precisely that the reaction observed by Thorburn was nothing like instantaneous but was fully developed only days later. Mark quoted from John McAdams' Assassination Logic (yay, John!) as follows:
"Lattimer was responsible for another bit of pseudoscience related to the case. In the wake of the bullet strike to his torso, Kennedy’s arms move sharply upward, toward his throat. He doesn’t actually grasp at his throat, and his fists are balled up in what looks like an involuntary reaction. Lattimer found a 'golden oldie' (from 1889) of an article in a medical journal and decided that Kennedy had assumed 'Thorburn’s position' — something documented as happening in the wake of trauma to the spine. Kennedy’s arm movements were indeed a neuromuscular reaction, but not the one Thorburn described, since Torburn’s position develops over days or weeks or even months. (130)
(130) Lattimer, Kennedy and Lincoln, chapter 11; Bob Artwohl, post on Compuserve forum, April 6, 1994, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thorburn.txt."
The link to Dr. Artwohl's post no longer works, but Mark steered folks to this letter from Dr. Strully, a NH neurosurgeon, to Dr. Artwohl: https://www.jfk-assassination.net/strully.txt.
What should profoundly amaze you is that Dr. Payette, having no idea what he was even talking about, nonetheless correctly diagnosed what is going on here - i.e., the bizarre movement of JFK's arms is indeed a neuromuscular reaction, just not a Thorburn reaction. The Thorburn thing is a red herring clutching at its gills with its little flippers (or fins or whatever red herrings have).
I am not surprised that anyone might think JFK was clutching at his throat because (1) he did have a throat wound and (2) that's kind of what it looks like.
-
I don't think Lattimer was the first to theorize the Thorburn position. I can't remember when I first read it but it's been a long time. I don't think it matters at all whether it was Thorburn or not which is why I don't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other. The shot to the head essentially ended function of his brain and central nervous system. He was technically alive for about another 20 minutes but I doubt he ever had another conscious thought.
Interesting about Bob Artwohl being on Compuserve in 1994. He was a regular on our old Prodigy board in the early 1990s, as was MTG and myself. He started out on the CT team but switched jerseys. He's the only one that I know of who did that. Our Prodigy group broke up when they changed their fee structure to charge for posts beyond a certain number which wasn't very generous. Apparently Bob found a new home at Compuserve. I ended up going to AOL. By the time I joined the McAdams forum in 2008, he was done posting there. I found some of his older posts on the archive but never saw a new post from him.
-
At page 116 of this thread, Dan O'Meara has an extended discussion as to why JFK's rapid and bizarre arm movements must be attributed to a reflex action from a shot at Z223-224 (yay, Dan!). Andrew Mason points out that we cannot see JFK between Z207-224 and that there is evidence of a beginning of a reaction with hand movements before Z207 (yay, Andrew!). Assuming that what we see is indeed a neurological reflex reaction, it would be interesting to see a qualified medical discussion as to how such a reaction might evolve - i.e., must it be instantaneous (or virtually so) or might it progress from what we see before Z207 to what we see at Z225?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2723.805.html
As far as the reaction to the wound is concerned, the notion that it caused a neurological response is not supported by any medical evidence. Lattimer, who was two letters (ne) short of being a neurologist, suggested he was immediately assuming a position that a patient of Dr. Thorburn was observed to assume a few days after his spinal cord was severed. Given that the hole in his throat would have interfered with his ability breathe normally, JFK’s sudden reaction at z226 could be his reaction to taking his first breath after being wounded.
There is a significant change in JFK after z193:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKXzj8xj/JFK-193-to-198.gif)
The change may begin before z193 if the change in right hand is part of the reaction:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMtcdtYZ/Compare-z189-z193.gif)
Several witnesses put the first shot when JFK was between the lamp post and the Thornton sign (z190-z200).
-
I don't think it matters at all whether it was Thorburn or not which is why I don't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.
No, but what would matter would be if (1) JFK were gagging on a bullet in his mouth or (2) his reactions were to a shot from the front or otherwise indicative of a non-SBT scenario. Both have been argued. I think it's pretty clear this isn't a Thorburn reaction but is an involuntary neuromuscular reaction.
-
There is a significant change in JFK after z193:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKXzj8xj/JFK-193-to-198.gif)
The change may begin before z193 if the change in right hand is part of the reaction:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMtcdtYZ/Compare-z189-z193.gif)
Several witnesses put the first shot when JFK was between the lamp post and the Thornton sign (z190-z200).
Yes, I have been emphasizing that John Orr's Mafia-did-it scenario has the shot at around Z200 and that the women in the Gloria Calvery group all said JFK was right in front of them (or "almost directly in front" of them, which according to Dan O'Meara is such a massive difference that I am a complete dolt for failing to grasp the cosmic significance :D :D :D).
-
No, but what would matter would be if (1) JFK were gagging on a bullet in his mouth or (2) his reactions were to a shot from the front or otherwise indicative of a non-SBT scenario. Both have been argued. I think it's pretty clear this isn't a Thorburn reaction but is an involuntary neuromuscular reaction.
Why would anyone contemplate either of these silly explanations?
Thousands of things have been argued. The assassination only happened one way. It's not very hard to figure out either. The only mystery is why so many people have such a hard time with it.
-
There is a significant change in JFK after z193:
The change may begin before z193 if the change in right hand is part of the reaction:
The only change in JFK after Z193 is he quit waving at the people to the right. There's lot's of footage of JFK not waving at various points in the motorcade. Why would anyone think that is significant.
Several witnesses put the first shot when JFK was between the lamp post and the Thornton sign (z190-z200).
I'm sure everyone's immediate reaction to the gunshot was to take note of the limo's position on Elm St. <chuckle>
-
The only change in JFK after Z193 is he quit waving at the people to the right. There's lot's of footage of JFK not waving at various points in the motorcade. Why would anyone think that is significant.
Was he shot earlier in the motorcade? Witnesses said he was waving to people on the right when the first shot sounded and he immediately reacted to it. Where else do you see that occurring?
I'm sure everyone's immediate reaction to the gunshot was to take note of the limo's position on Elm St. <chuckle>
They likely would not have to make notes to remember seeing the President right in front of them being assassinated. The image would have been seared into their memories for life.
-
Was he shot earlier in the motorcade? Witnesses said he was waving to people on the right when the first shot sounded and he immediately reacted to it. Where else do you see that occurring?
Once again you make the foolish mistake of assuming what a witness has said is an established fact. You'll never figure out the JFKA as long as you have that mindset.
They likely would not have to make notes to remember seeing the President right in front of them being assassinated. The image would have been seared into their memories for life.
There's no reason to think the position of the car would have been "seared into their memories for life".
-
Why is that clear. What is clear is she didn't remember things happened the way Zapruder's camera did.
You can be too close to an event to see it clearly. It narrows the focus.
Are you serious? She just saw her husband seriously wounded and the President murdered in a gruesome way and you think she would just calmly take it all in. Ridiculous
Neither's testimony spot on. JFK's arms did not remain locked in a raised postion. By Z312 his elbows were back down.
Why is that clear. What is clear is she didn't remember things happened the way Zapruder's camera did.
Sure, she did. She did remember things happened the way Zapruder's film did. BC and Nelly watched the film in the hospital. JBC had two completely different statements concerning the assassination. Now you know why.
Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?
Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.
-
Once again you make the foolish mistake of assuming what a witness has said is an established fact. You'll never figure out the JFKA as long as you have that mindset.
No assumption at all. I take the evidence at face value and examine the rest of the evidence ce to see if there is other evidence that conflicts with it. I reject it only if there is a good reason ie. other evidence that conflicts with it. I don't assume that it is wrong because it is a human witness like you do.
There's no reason to think the position of the car would have been "seared into their memories for life".
Unless you were there, how would you know? Those who were there - like Mary Woodward, John Templin,Ernest Brandt, Tina Towner, Linda Willis, Rosemary Willis, Bob Jackson and others who made Living History contributions to the Sixth Floor Museum - would say otherwise.
-
No assumption at all. I take the evidence at face value and examine the rest of the evidence ce to see if there is other evidence that conflicts with it. I reject it only if there is a good reason ie. other evidence that conflicts with it. I don't assume that it is wrong because it is a human witness like you do.
Unless you were there, how would you know? Those who were there - like Mary Woodward, John Templin,Ernest Brandt, Tina Towner, Linda Willis, Rosemary Willis, Bob Jackson and others who made Living History contributions to the Sixth Floor Museum - would say otherwise.
The best evidence we have is the Z-film and any witness statement that conflicts with that should be dismissed. Because won't do that, you reach the ridiculous conclusion that JBC wasn't hit until Z270 and that the reason his is doubled over and dipping hard to his right is because he was trying to see JFK. I suppose you could have come up with a sillier interpretation of the Z-film, but it is hard to imagine how.
-
The best evidence we have is the Z-film and any witness statement that conflicts with that should be dismissed. Because won't do that, you reach the ridiculous conclusion that JBC wasn't hit until Z270 and that the reason his is doubled over and dipping hard to his right is because he was trying to see JFK. I suppose you could have come up with a sillier interpretation of the Z-film, but it is hard to imagine how.
There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point. We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.
-
There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point. We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.
It tells people with good eyesight and a functioning brain when the second shot was fired that hit both JFK and JBC.
-
There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point. We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.
Andrew, I have to disagree with you regarding Gov. Connally's being wounded after frame 255.
In the Zapruder film, at frame 235, Connally is screaming "Oh no, no, no". after being struck. His mouth is in speaking motion from that time on in the film until we lose sight of him following the fatal shot. He stated in his WC testimony:
" I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap ".
The bullet has already passed through his back, chest, wrist and into his leg.
-
Andrew, I have to disagree with you regarding Gov. Connally's being wounded after frame 255.
In the Zapruder film, at frame 235, Connally is screaming "Oh no, no, no". after being struck. His mouth is in speaking motion from that time on in the film until we lose sight of him following the fatal shot. He stated in his WC testimony:
" I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap ".
The bullet has already passed through his back, chest, wrist and into his leg.
Hello Steve. I agree that he is saying "oh, no, no" around there. We can see his mouth open at z244 but it may have been open a bit sooner.
You have correctly stated his WC testimony. But JBC told Life Magazine something different (Life, 25Nov66, p. 48):
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhmKkyPj/image.png)
And in 1978 he started to tell the HSCA that he said "oh, no, no" before he was hit and then changed his mind and said he guessed it was after. But, perhaps most significant, he recalled saying it because he thought the President was being assassinated, not because he was hit by it (1 HSCA 43):
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Fq4Cg1/image.png)
So, while one has to respect the Governor's testimony on that point, my question is: which of the three statements is accurate? Nellie has always maintained that he said it before the second shot. She also said that she looked back at JFK before the second shot and did not look back afterward. She is looking back at him up to about z268. Altgens said that his z255 photo was taken after the first and before any other shot. Hickey said he was looking at the President when the last two shots sounded. He is turned to the rear in Altgens and has yet to turn forward. Gayle Newman said that JBC was turned to his right side when the second shot sounded and he just lay back (see her WFAA interview within half an hour of the events). She said the car was passing right in front of them when the second shot sounded. According to Dr. Shires, Nellie told him that JBC was turned to his right when hit by the second shot. Greer said he turned around "almost simultaneously" with the second shot and saw JBC in the process of laying back onto Nellie. We can see the final part of that first turn just before z283.
The other aspect that makes me think JBC's WC testimony is incorrect and Nellie's is correct is the lack of any other attempt to even turn his head to face the rear before the turn that begins about z230. I know that both JBC and Nellie placed the second shot around z234 and that is worthy of consideration. But it is only an opinion of what they think he would have looked like, not what they saw, and it does not fit with the rest of Nellie's testimony.
The problem with JBC being hit earlier than z270 is not the zfilm. It is the rest of the evidence. The zfilm by itself is, at best, equivocal in placing the time of the second shot.
-
As JFK emerges from behind the Stemmons sign his left arm is down by his side, as it was before he passed behind the sign.
Less than half a second later it has flown up from this resting position into the extreme hyper-extension of the elbows, curled wrists and stiffly pointing index finger. Somewhere in "The First Shot" thread Brian Roselle had an excellent post about how JFK's hand/wrist position resemble rapid onset spasticity. The rapidity, extremeness and distorted nature of his arm movements indicate massive nerve damage. This kind of response occurs milliseconds after the initial 'stimulus'. It is the reaction to a shot passing through him at z222/223. The first signs of reaction are visible around z225.
There are no indications whatsoever that JFK was reacting to anything before this point. Suggestions to the contrary have been recently debunked ("When Was JFK HIT", REPLY#14)
Also posted on the same thread was the following:
Cavitation is an effect where a bullet passing through soft tissue, as demonstrated in the video below:
It isn't just the bullet that causes damage when it passes through a body. Cavitation can have an equally devastating effect on the tissue and, in particular nerves. When the bullet passes through JFK's neck, there is the damage caused by the bullet and damage caused by cavitation. The bullet passes through an area called the Brachial Plexus, an area dense in nerves coming out of the spinal column. In the diagram below the red dot represents the approximate position the bullet enters his upper back/lower neck:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvJphB7x/brachial-plexus-jpg-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Comments from Dr. Robert Artwohl explaining why we saw the arms stiffening upward.
“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”
"Comments from neurologist Dr. Strully in a letter sent by Dr. Strully to Dr. Robert Artwohl, dated April 9, 1994 as to an even greater possible extent of the muscle contractions:
"Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck. This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck. This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last. All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment…” [posted by Brian Roselle]
The effect of cavitation causes an "instantaneous" contraction of all the arm muscles. This is clearly seen in the Z-film as JFK's elbows fly up to their highest point and the top half of his body appears to momentarily stiffen. It is a radical, extreme and instantaneous reflex reaction caused by the wholesale damage of nerves in the Brachial Plexus.
How quickly is "instantaneous" for a reflex reaction:
"While human reaction times tend to require hundreds of milliseconds, "One of the fastest [neural feedback] loops is from arm sensors to spinal cord and back out to arm muscles: it takes 110 milliseconds for feedback corrections to be made to an arm movement." (William H. Calvin, "The unitary hypothesis: A common neural circuitry for novel manipulations, language, plan-ahead, and throwing?" in Tools, Language, and Cognition in Human Evolution, edited by Kathleen R. Gibson and Tim Ingold. Cambridge University Press, pp. 230-250, [1993].)
So there could already be a reaction of a subject's arms in as early as 110 milliseconds, the equivalent of two Zapruder frames. But, of course, with JFK and Gov. Connally shot between 223 and 224, we should not be able to discern a significant reaction before frame 226. While only a few milliseconds later, this would still be too late.
-
I guess we are all entitled to be our own little photographic panels and medical panels, but it certainly looks to me like "something is going on" with JFKA after Z195. The right arm seems locked in a distinctly odd position.
-
I guess we are all entitled to be our own little photographic panels and medical panels, but it certainly looks to me like "something is going on" with JFKA after Z195. The right arm seems locked in a distinctly odd position.
Instead of saying "looks to me like" [ ::)] I've provided photographic proof that the HSCA's photographic panel was incorrect regarding JFK's movements as he passed behind the Stemmons sign.
It is par for the course that you have ignored, and are downplaying, this irrefutable evidence. It's typical of your 'open-minded' approach. So is the way you just disappeared from the discussion on that thread once this evidence was presented to you, only for you to pop up elsewhere spewing the same discredited nonsense.
There is no evidence whatsoever that JFK was reacting to a shot prior to z225. His arm is in the air because he is waving, that's it. He doesn't rapidly turn to face Jackie, that has been proven to be incorrect.
Reassess the evidence presented on this point.
You seem so enamoured by figures in authority that you find it difficult to accept a non-expert could offer any new insight. Even when it is put right in front of your face.
The HSCA photographic panel was wrong on this particular issue. That has been proven. You don't need to see what it 'looks like'.
-
I guess we are all entitled to be our own little photographic panels and medical panels, but it certainly looks to me like "something is going on" with JFKA after Z195. The right arm seems locked in a distinctly odd position.
It's called waving. After Z195 he stopped waving and began lowering his right arm, a movement he continued until Z226 when both arms suddenly raised dramatically. I don't see anything odd about it.
-
It's typical of your 'open-minded' approach. So is the way you just disappeared from the discussion on that thread once this evidence was presented to you, only for you to pop up elsewhere spewing the same discredited nonsense.
Dr. Payette does not "disappear." Dr. Payette is something substantially less than obsessed, becomes bored with tedious discussions and tedious people, yawns and moves on.
You have not demonstrated to Dr. Payette's satisfaction that anything has been "discredited" anywhere other than your own mind, which Dr. Payette declines to accept as a viable appeal to authority.
Would this perhaps be my final entry on the thread I "disappeared" from? Or is there a different thread from which I "disappeared"?
Yep, kinda what I thought: "John C mode," as it shall henceforth be known. "I decide what the evidence shows."
Is English your second language? "Right in front" and "almost directly in front" are "two completely different things?" I somehow missed that nuance in my 50+ years of writing and editing professionally. We are talking about a vehicle passing women on a curb a few feet away, and you insist "right in front" and "almost directly in front" are two "completely different things." Ho-kay ...
My "truly sad attempt" to "pass them off" is yet another example of "the dumbness" that "plagues" my every post? If you operate at this level of anger over an internet discussion, it's a wonder you haven't popped a vein or two - or perhaps you have? Do your wife and dog stay out of the room while you are spewing spittle over the keyboard lest you vent your fury on them? Jesus.
Dr. Payette, having dealt with umpteen fellow lawyers trying to wiggle out of a faux pas, would hazard a guess that you were caught with your pants down (figuratively speaking, or maybe not) and have seized upon the massive difference between "right in front" and "almost directly in front" in a bizarre and comical effort to save face because you simply can't stand to be wrong. Put your pants back on - no one really cares.
-
It's called waving. After Z195 he stopped waving and began lowering his right arm, a movement he continued until Z226 when both arms suddenly raised dramatically. I don't see anything odd about it.
So after smiling and waving, he assumed the grimace just for Zapruder at z225 and not an 18th of a second earlier?:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qM4CmwP4/Compare-z193-z224.gif)
How do you know that the movement of his arms at z226 is immediately after he is shot? Is it not possible that his sensation of something being wrong might have occurred in two stages - the second being when he found he couldn't breathe normally?
There is definitely a change in his hand, arm and head between z187 and z207:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJKPRpQ0/z187-207-closeup.gif)
-
So after smiling and waving, he assumed the grimace just for Zapruder at z225 and not an 18th of a second earlier?:
We don't know if JFK was grimacing in Z224 because his face wasn't visible.
How do you know that the movement of his arms at z226 is immediately after he is shot?
Because I am capable of exercising common sense. Reflex actions occur almost immediately after the stimulus.
Is it not possible that his sensation of something being wrong might have occurred in two stages - the second being when he found he couldn't breathe normally?
Reflex actions do not occur in stages.
There is definitely a change in his hand, arm and head between z187 and z207:
Yes there is. He stopped waving at the people to his right and started turning to face the front.
-
We don't know if JFK was grimacing in Z224 because his face wasn't visible.
You are right. We don't know if he was grimacing at z224. We also don't know that he wasn't reacting like that during the second or so he was behind the sign. Your common sense then is to assume that he wasn't. Your "common sense" is to assume that it was just an amazing coincidence that the first time he grimaced was the first frame when he came into Zapruder's view. I suggest that your definition of "common sense" is not all that common.
Because I am capable of exercising common sense. Reflex actions occur almost immediately after the stimulus.
Reflex actions do not occur in stages.
Yes there is. He stopped waving at the people to his right and started turning to face the front.
There is no evidence that JFK's reaction is a reflex. A voluntary reaction will take at least 100 ms. to occur after the stimulus. A reflex reaction takes much less: 15-50 ms to start after the stimulus. So if JFK was shot at z223-224 as you suggest his reaction at z226 would not be a reflex.
-
You are right. We don't know if he was grimacing at z224. We also don't know that he wasn't reacting like that during the second or so he was behind the sign. Your common sense then is to assume that he wasn't. Your "common sense" is to assume that it was just an amazing coincidence that the first time he grimaced was the first frame when he came into Zapruder's view. I suggest that your definition of "common sense" is not all that common.There is no evidence that JFK's reaction is a reflex. A voluntary reaction will take at least 100 ms. to occur after the stimulus. A reflex reaction takes much less: 15-50 ms to start after the stimulus. So if JFK was shot at z223-224 as you suggest his reaction at z226 would not be a reflex.
We can argue about whether JFK and JBC are exhibiting a reflex or cognitive response. What is unmistakable is that they are both reacting at precisely the same time and in the same manner by suddenly flipping their arms upward just 3 frames after we see JBC's jacket bulge outward. You want to write these events off as if they are coincidences. Another glaring example of how bad you are at weighing evidence.
-
We can argue about whether JFK and JBC are exhibiting a reflex or cognitive response. What is unmistakable is that they are both reacting at precisely the same time and in the same manner by suddenly flipping their arms upward just 3 frames after we see JBC's jacket bulge outward. You want to write these events off as if they are coincidences. Another glaring example of how bad you are at weighing evidence.
I have explained ad nauseum why those actions are consistent with JFK reacting to the effects of his neck wound that began around z193 and JBC beginning his reaction to hearing it, just as witnesses described it. The reactions are occurring at the same time because the overlap but they do not begin at the same time. JFK began his reaction before z225. It is not a random coincidence. Their actions are their responses to the first shot.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the zfilm is an idiot. That's an issue for you to deal with, not me.
-
I have explained ad nauseum why those actions are consistent with JFK reacting to the effects of his neck wound that began around z193 and JBC beginning his reaction to hearing it, just as witnesses described it. The reactions are occurring at the same time because the overlap but they do not begin at the same time. JFK began his reaction before z225. It is not a random coincidence. Their actions are their responses to the first shot.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the zfilm is an idiot. That's an issue for you to deal with, not me.
Yes, you have explained it many times and not once has your explanation made any sense.
-
Yes, you have explained it many times and not once has your explanation made any sense.
As soon as I figure out how to post a video on here, as I'm having trouble finding a place I can trust to upload them/it into.
I'm going to post a video showing Governor Connally reacting to being struck in the back, causing his shoulders to jerk up and down twice as the bullet pierces his back. It's an unmistakable involuntary reaction by Connally that occurs at the same time his face shows a noticeable grimace-all before JFK's face emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
I'd like to get my thread back on track here, and this should do it.
-
As soon as I figure out how to post a video on here, as I'm having trouble finding a place I can trust to upload them/it into.
I'm going to post a video showing Governor Connally reacting to being struck in the back, causing his shoulders to jerk up and down twice as the bullet pierces his back. It's an unmistakable involuntary reaction by Connally that occurs at the same time his face shows a noticeable grimace-all before JFK's face emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
I'd like to get my thread back on track here, and this should do it.
Just set up your Youtube account and upload. You can get the direct link by “Share” and “Copy link”. Or you can upload to Google drive and select “Share” “Anyone with the link”.
-
Just set up your Youtube account and upload. You can get the direct link by “Share” and “Copy link”. Or you can upload to Google drive and select “Share” “Anyone with the link”.
Thanks Andrew. I'll look into this and post the video as soon as I can.
-
I'd forgotten about this video I made a few years ago, showing the up and down movement of Governor Connally's shoulder's as the bullet strikes him in the back.
I want to point out that it was NOT I who was the first to point this out, but at the time I made the video, I didn't know that David Von Pein is the person who first pointed it out on his magnificent JFK Assassination website.
My video was published by researcher Jim Hess several years ago.
I should also point out that the reason the film is played at reverse frame is that it makes it much easier to see this up and down motion of the Governor's shoulders.
-
Even in John Orr's scenario, which has the bullet passing through JFK, nicking the windshield molding and exiting the car, but not hitting JBC, there would have been a bullet whizzing through the car. It appears that Jackie and Kellerman also flinch noticeably in the same direction as JBC at the same time. Can we be certain that JBC's reaction, which is certainly noticeable, is a reaction to being hit? I just tried turning my head several times, and it actually seems quite natural for my one shoulder to rise in the direction I am turning. The faster I turn, the more it seems to do it.
-
Even in John Orr's scenario, which has the bullet passing through JFK, nicking the windshield molding and exiting the car, but not hitting JBC, there would have been a bullet whizzing through the car. It appears that Jackie and Kellerman also flinch noticeably in the same direction as JBC at the same time. Can we be certain that JBC's reaction, which is certainly noticeable, is a reaction to being hit?
We can if we apply common sense.
-
We can if we apply common sense.
I believe that's what we ex-lawyers call a non-responsive answer. The issue is why JBC's shoulder raises abruptly. I noted that both Kellerman and Jackie seem to flinch - admittedly less - in the same direction at the same time. I further noted that when I whip around, my own shoulder raises noticeably. One possibility is that JBC's shoulder raised because he was hit by the same bullet that hit JFK; another possibility is that it was the natural consequence of him whipping his head around. I'm not arguing for one or the other, merely asking the question if we can be certain about the reason for JBC's shoulder movement. The answer is not a matter of common sense. You think it is because you assume the SBT is correct. This is the fallacy of begging (avoiding) the question. If we knew the SBT was correct, Steve's video and this thread would be pointless. This is what I have described before as your tendency to reason backwards: because we know the SBT is correct, it follows that this is why JBC's shoulder raises.
-
I believe that's what we ex-lawyers call a non-responsive answer.
I'm not here to please ex-lawyers.
The issue is why JBC's shoulder raises abruptly. I noted that both Kellerman and Jackie seem to flinch - admittedly less - in the same direction at the same time. I further noted that when I whip around, my own shoulder raises noticeably. One possibility is that JBC's shoulder raised because he was hit by the same bullet that hit JFK; another possibility is that it was the natural consequence of him whipping his head around. I'm not arguing for one or the other, merely asking the question if we can be certain about the reason for JBC's shoulder movement. The answer is not a matter of common sense. You think it is because you assume the SBT is correct. This is the fallacy of begging (avoiding) the question. If we knew the SBT was correct, Steve's video and this thread would be pointless. This is what I have described before as your tendency to reason backwards: because we know the SBT is correct, it follows that this is why JBC's shoulder raises.
Why do you look at the shoulder raise in isolation with JBC's other movements. The facts that his right arm flipped upward at precisely the same moment JFK's arms started upward and that he was sitting in front of and slightly to JFK's left which put him directly in line with a bullet exiting JFK's throat should be enough to convince a person with common sense that they were hit by the same bullet.
I'll never understand why people want to complicate the JFKA when the answers are all so obvious. It's as if people don't want a clear answer.
-
I'm not here to please ex-lawyers.
Why do you look at the shoulder raise in isolation with JBC's other movements. The facts that his right arm flipped upward at precisely the same moment JFK's arms started upward and that he was sitting in front of and slightly to JFK's left which put him directly in line with a bullet exiting JFK's throat should be enough to convince a person with common sense that they were hit by the same bullet.
I'll never understand why people want to complicate the JFKA when the answers are all so obvious. It's as if people don't want a clear answer.
"...DIRECTLY in line with a bullet exiting JFK's throat..."? Nobody knows the exact position of Connally relative to JFK when that shot struck JFK. They were behind the Stemmons sign. Stop trying to get by with just throwing BS: against the wall.
-
I'm not here to please ex-lawyers.
Why do you look at the shoulder raise in isolation with JBC's other movements. The facts that his right arm flipped upward at precisely the same moment JFK's arms started upward and that he was sitting in front of and slightly to JFK's left which put him directly in line with a bullet exiting JFK's throat should be enough to convince a person with common sense that they were hit by the same bullet.
I'll never understand why people want to complicate the JFKA when the answers are all so obvious. It's as if people don't want a clear answer.
Maybe he was just doing the Funky Chicken - ever think of that, huh, huh? It does seem to me that Jackie and Kellerman flinch at the same time, so I simply raise the question as to whether we can be sure that this is a reaction to being hit or possibly merely a reaction to a bullet whizzing past him. What we see JBC doing is pretty much exactly what he said he did, but for some reason he has been relegated to "the one person who had no idea what he was talking about."
-
I believe that's what we ex-lawyers call a non-responsive answer. The issue is why JBC's shoulder raises abruptly. I noted that both Kellerman and Jackie seem to flinch - admittedly less - in the same direction at the same time. I further noted that when I whip around, my own shoulder raises noticeably. One possibility is that JBC's shoulder raised because he was hit by the same bullet that hit JFK; another possibility is that it was the natural consequence of him whipping his head around. I'm not arguing for one or the other, merely asking the question if we can be certain about the reason for JBC's shoulder movement. The answer is not a matter of common sense. You think it is because you assume the SBT is correct. This is the fallacy of begging (avoiding) the question. If we knew the SBT was correct, Steve's video and this thread would be pointless. This is what I have described before as your tendency to reason backwards: because we know the SBT is correct, it follows that this is why JBC's shoulder raises.
It's both shoulders that rise, not one. They both rise, simultaneously. And Connally wasn't already turning his head when his shoulder's moved upward. He is in the same position he was in the entire travel down Elm Street from the time he jerked his head to his right after having just turned his head to the left. He jerked his head from left to right within 1/4 of a second, and so did JFK just before Connally did. The Zapruder film un-spliced film shows this vividly. Both men did the same, exact thing, except JFK jerked his head a fraction of a second before Connally did. Watch the film. Connally never changed his position-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side of the car just before the car starts to disappear behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. The first time Connally shows ANY change in his body position is when his facial expression changes and his shoulders raise immediately after the facial expression change, within the next Z frame.
-
That is what the HSCA panel observed, although they had JFK’s “severe external stimulus” earlier:
Connally's movements as he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frames 222—224 also indicate that he is reacting to a severe external stimulus. He appears to be frowning and there is a distinct stiffening of his shoulders and upper trunk. Then there is a radical change in his facial expression and rapid changes begin to occur in the orientation of his head.
Orr has JBC being shot at Z236 and reacting at Z237, which does seem clearly incorrect even though he cites support from Six Seconds in Dallas and the three Parkland doctors who treated JBC (in terms of how JBC's body would have been oriented). It would seem to me that the critical question is when JFK was hit.
-
It's both [of Connally's] shoulders that raise, not one. They both rise simultaneously.
Exactly! And Connally's necktie does a little dance too:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6ae0yfUIYv4qoif2IWD_cFHIYy_QHA6JTuelYWPSQqpRcJvruU71MRKkkBeQBIwZRAjhkXrlkDfx_0EsZ5sXAq0vYhbUCb3f9X7vW3Dw4nmpV9kk35sp6qFNkMq_JhH0rkqkdwpA-2p4T/s1600/110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAISXrnGkJ0fQ0fVC_d8zrg9rfjbZownM-jqD-J2jZGX1qVOeNiukfp9xxS4pXUTMC0XIul6l8HtYRp05H71VSeVDUhuYfyqyKzIwnffa4EaqqDYGejn2cdg269sSewmXIcY4ssO8qv2w/s1600/Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif)
Lots more at these two links:
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html
https://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com
-
"...DIRECTLY in line with a bullet exiting JFK's throat..."? Nobody knows the exact position of Connally relative to JFK when that shot struck JFK. They were behind the Stemmons sign. Stop trying to get by with just throwing BS: against the wall.
The were hidden for approximately 1 second. It is absurd to think there was any significant movement from the line of fire during that 1 second. We see JFK reemerge at Z225 about 1/6 of a second after he was struck. I think we can figure out the alignment of the two men from that.
-
Maybe he was just doing the Funky Chicken - ever think of that, huh, huh? It does seem to me that Jackie and Kellerman flinch at the same time, so I simply raise the question as to whether we can be sure that this is a reaction to being hit or possibly merely a reaction to a bullet whizzing past him. What we see JBC doing is pretty much exactly what he said he did, but for some reason he has been relegated to "the one person who had no idea what he was talking about."
A rather silly question. It is what I've come to expect from people who seem desperate to find an explanation for the JFKA other than the right one.
-
Exactly! And Connally's necktie does a little dance too.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6ae0yfUIYv4qoif2IWD_cFHIYy_QHA6JTuelYWPSQqpRcJvruU71MRKkkBeQBIwZRAjhkXrlkDfx_0EsZ5sXAq0vYhbUCb3f9X7vW3Dw4nmpV9kk35sp6qFNkMq_JhH0rkqkdwpA-2p4T/s1600/110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAISXrnGkJ0fQ0fVC_d8zrg9rfjbZownM-jqD-J2jZGX1qVOeNiukfp9xxS4pXUTMC0XIul6l8HtYRp05H71VSeVDUhuYfyqyKzIwnffa4EaqqDYGejn2cdg269sSewmXIcY4ssO8qv2w/s1600/Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif)
Lots more at these two links:
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html
Gov Connally is beginning to turn around and face JFK. There is extremely little space between the Connally jump seat and the Limo door. Plus, in order to turn around and literally face JFK, Connally is forced to raise his (R) arm above his jump seat backrest. This is the RAISING that you are seeing. Connally is raising his upper body as he swings around to directly face JFK. That jump seat backrest is almost Never taken into consideration. Even the so called test shots do Not include a backrest. Just look at high def footage of JFK and Jackie being loaded into the JFK Limo at Love Field. The extremely cramped conditions inside that Limo are obvious. They even have to be extremely careful when closing the door next to Gov Connally. Banging Connally's legs when closing that Limo door was a concern at Love Field.
-
A rather silly question. It is what I've come to expect from people who seem desperate to find an explanation for the JFKA other than the right one.
You're so full of mirth, John. You must be tons of fun to be around. Of course, most people are touchy when it comes to their religion, so I'll try to be more serious and respectful in the future. ::) (No you won't, Lance, and you damn well know it.)
-
Exactly! And Connally's necktie does a little dance too.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6ae0yfUIYv4qoif2IWD_cFHIYy_QHA6JTuelYWPSQqpRcJvruU71MRKkkBeQBIwZRAjhkXrlkDfx_0EsZ5sXAq0vYhbUCb3f9X7vW3Dw4nmpV9kk35sp6qFNkMq_JhH0rkqkdwpA-2p4T/s1600/110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAISXrnGkJ0fQ0fVC_d8zrg9rfjbZownM-jqD-J2jZGX1qVOeNiukfp9xxS4pXUTMC0XIul6l8HtYRp05H71VSeVDUhuYfyqyKzIwnffa4EaqqDYGejn2cdg269sSewmXIcY4ssO8qv2w/s1600/Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif)
Lots more at these two links:
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html
Hi David! Hope you're doing well.
One other extremely important fact within the bottom gif that you've posted is that no one seems to notice (except for myself) that in this very gif , Mrs. Connally can clearly be seen looking straight ahead, and not at all at her husband as he's hit, like she said she did. It's easy to distinguish her forehead and hairline, as well as upper facial features, i.e. eyes and nose. She doesn't turn her head to her right until after her husband is struck.
-
Gov Connally is beginning to turn around and face JFK. There is extremely little space between the Connally jump seat and the Limo door. Plus, in order to turn around and literally face JFK, Connally is forced to raise his (R) arm above his jump seat backrest. This is the RAISING that you are seeing.
And does your "cramped quarters" theory also explain the other things we see happening to Governor Connally at the exact same two-frame time period? Such as: the pained open-mouthed grimace that appears on JBC's face at precisely Z225. (Connally's mouth had been closed in frame 224, btw.)
And there's also the "Lapel Flip/Bulge" at Z224 as well. Did the cramped seating space cause the lapel to bulge out too?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6ae0yfUIYv4qoif2IWD_cFHIYy_QHA6JTuelYWPSQqpRcJvruU71MRKkkBeQBIwZRAjhkXrlkDfx_0EsZ5sXAq0vYhbUCb3f9X7vW3Dw4nmpV9kk35sp6qFNkMq_JhH0rkqkdwpA-2p4T/s1600/110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif)
Royell,
Are you, by chance, related to James R. Gordon (former owner of the Edu. Forum)? Because your SBT denial regarding Governor Connally sounds remarkably similar to his own.
Heck, James even went so deep into SBT Denial Mode during the course of THIS DISCUSSION (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html) that he said he couldn't even see Connally jerk his right arm upward between Z225-226. (Now, that's what I'd called some Big-Bahookie Denial!)
-
And does your "cramped quarters" theory also explain the other things we see happening to Governor Connally at the exact same two-frame time period? E.G., the pained open-mouthed grimace that appears on JBC's face at precisely Z225. (Connally's mouth had been closed in frame 224, btw.) And there's also the "Lapel Flip/Bulge" at Z224 as well. Did the cramped seating space cause the lapel to bulge out too?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6ae0yfUIYv4qoif2IWD_cFHIYy_QHA6JTuelYWPSQqpRcJvruU71MRKkkBeQBIwZRAjhkXrlkDfx_0EsZ5sXAq0vYhbUCb3f9X7vW3Dw4nmpV9kk35sp6qFNkMq_JhH0rkqkdwpA-2p4T/s1600/110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif)
Royell,
Are you, by chance, related to James R. Gordon (former owner of the Edu. Forum)? Because your SBT denial regarding Governor Connally sounds remarkably similar to his own.
Heck, James even went so deep into SBT Denial Mode that he said he couldn't even see Connally jerk his right arm upward between Z225-226. (Now, that's what I'd called some Big-Bahookie Denial!)
I am no relation to whoever that guy is.
The Open Mouth is a separate issue. It is not connected to the select frames that You posted with respect to Gov Conally's shoulders.
I also find the reaction of Jackie interesting. She is aware that something is Not right on the frames that You posted. Jackie physically reacting means what we are seeing on those frames is after JFK has been hit. How long did it take her to physically react like this? A subject worthy of discussion.
I am Not a Posner fan. He's a One Trick Pony. He beat that lapel stuff to death a long, long, time ago.
The extremely restricted confines of the JFK Limo have never been appreciated and therefore not considered. Gov Connally is already supposed to be all shot up, yet he manages to turn around and go face-to-face with JFK?
And then we also have the Dan Rather description of when Connally was shot in the chest.
-
An AI generated image that I ran across online.
If only the creator of the image would have taken better care with Governor Connally's character, this would seem more realistic. (Thank you, Royell Storing, for pointing out my error in neglecting to put a much needed caption with the image).
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/S4Ypx1Bz/FRAME-242.jpg)
-
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/S4Ypx1Bz/FRAME-242.jpg)
STEVE - Remember that there are Very Young Newbes to the JFK Assassination among us. They might think your visual aid/pic above was actually taken on 11/22/63. In the future, please attach some sort of disclaimer to posted pics that were Not taken on 11/22/63. PS - (The background scenery is way off)
-
Is JFK coughing up blood?
Is there blood on JFK's hands?
Given that the picture in question is an AI generated version of a frame that was taken about 1/4 second following JFK and JBC being shot, I doubt any blood would be showing. That's would be unlikely even if this had been an actual close-up photo.
-
STEVE - Remember that there are Very Young Newbes to the JFK Assassination among us. They might think your visual aid/pic above was actually taken on 11/22/63. In the future, please attach some sort of disclaimer to posted pics that were Not taken on 11/22/63. PS - (The background scenery is way off)
Thanks much, Royell. I corrected my mistake of forgetting to include he caption.
-
Hi Steve. your copies of the Z film frames seem to be better than the ones I have. Could you show frame Z230 in the same way you have showed the frames above? I'd like to see that particular frame because I can't seem to fathom it. Thanks....James.
Hi James,
My Z frames are from the MPI DVD, I just brightened them up a little.
I hope this frame 230 is what you need.
Best regards,
Steve
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/ZRsQ5rP1/Z-230.png) (https://ibb.co/Psp2Kynz)
-
Thank you for that. We see that Jack Kennedy is clearly hit and JC is looking forward, in no discomfort and still holding his hat in his right hand. That ties with the testimony of Nell and John Connally quite well when they said JC was hit two seconds after Kennedy.
Ann Donaldson, Woodward's roommate, clears up Woodward's confusion. She states there were only two shots. Just like the majority of the other eyewitnesses. Brown and Alonzo must have agreed.
Another example of no Early Missed Shot having ever occurred. Like another one was needed to prove the point.
Courtesy of Pat Speer's website.
Ann Donaldson (11-22-63 first person account published in the Washington Evening Star, Second Extra Edition. Note: this article was apparently picked up from a Jackson, Mississippi paper.) "I was standing 70 feet from President Kennedy when he was assassinated today and saw him fall under the bullet that killed him. Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy threw herself over his body as the President's car speeded up as soon as the driver realized what had happened. The crowd began to scream and wail and people standing nearby began to throw their children on the ground for safety. I heard two shots. The first shot sounded like a firecracker and the President heard it. He turned to look, as did everyone else, and then the second shot sounded. This time the President fell. Then there was only chaos.
-
Comparing Z223 to Z224 shows the moment JBC's jacket bulged out from the bullet that exited from just below his right nipple. Comparing Z224 to Z225 shows that his right arm was still moving down at the time he came into full view from behind the sign. Comparing Z225 to Z226 shows that JFK's arms started upward at frame Z226 and also show that JBC's right arm started upward at the same time.
-
Ann Donaldson, Woodward's roommate, clears up Woodward's confusion. She states there were only two shots. Just like the majority of the other eyewitnesses. Brown and Alonzo must have agreed.
Ann Donaldson said there were three shots in her Sixth Floor Oral History (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/24688/ann-atterberry-oral-history#) - the relevant parts are around the 20:00 minute mark. She said there was a loud noise - the first shot - and then two more shots.
You shouldn't believe everything you read in newspapers. Sometimes reporters get things wrong.
-
I guess you didn't notice he is in the process of flipping his injured right arm upward, a motion he began at exactly the same frame JFK's arms started moving upward, frame Z226. The reacted at the same time because they were shot at the same time. Well, a couple milliseconds apart. Close enough.
That's Wrong! Connally's (R) Arm does not move "upward". His (R) shoulder DIPS, therefore his (R) arm is Dropping. Connally is turning around in the cramped Jump Seat area in order to face JFK and see what was going on in the Limo backseat. This is why we Never see Connally's (R) arm higher than the (R) side of the Limo.
-
Hi James,
My Z frames are from the MPI DVD, I just brightened them up a little.
I hope this frame 230 is what you need.
Best regards,
Steve
(http://)(https://i.ibb.co/ZRsQ5rP1/Z-230.png) (https://ibb.co/Psp2Kynz)
In addition to the position of JFK's hands, this clear still frame displays how cramped Gov Connally was in that jump seat. No MAN normally holds their Stetson Hat like a woman clutching a baby to her chest. The dipping of the (R) shoulder is being done to permit Connally making his (R) turnaround in these very cramped conditions. There is extremely little space between the Jump Seat and the side of the car. This was made obvious when Connally was seated in the JFK Limo at Love Field. They had to be careful when closing that rear passenger door and Not banging Connally's (R) leg with that door. In order to turn and face JFK in the backseat behind him, Connally had to manipulate his (R) Arm to make that turn around. The dipping of the (R) shoulder permitted Connally to turn around and face JFK.
-
Here you go, James. Don't worry about asking for more frames. It's nothing at all to do this.
One thing we cannot do to prove anything when it comes to a person's reaction to trauma if it's filmed is base any conclusions based on a still frame from moving pictures. Base it on the actions of the individual caught in moving film/video when suffering their being wounded or hurt.
(https://i.ibb.co/zTz6nZVM/325.png)
-
Ann Donaldson said there were three shots in her Sixth Floor Oral History (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/24688/ann-atterberry-oral-history#) - the relevant parts are around the 20:00 minute mark. She said there was a loud noise - the first shot - and then two more shots.
You shouldn't believe everything you read in newspapers. Sometimes reporters get things wrong.
But as even the WC noted, and as Jack analyzes in Phantom Shot, witnesses tend to evolve in the direction of the "accepted narrative" - sometimes within mere hours or days. By the time of the Sixth Floor Museum interviews, witnesses may have convinced themselves that the "accepted narrative" is what they actually experienced.
I also find it kind of bizarre that anyone would call Nellie Connally's credibility into question for saying JFK clutched at his throat. To any real-world observer who isn't analyzing enhanced Z-film frames with a magnifying glass, that's exactly what it looks like. The Connallys strike me as fantastic witnesses.
-
I doubt all the witnesses agree on what the accepted narrative is.
-
In addition to the position of JFK's hands, this clear still frame displays how cramped Gov Connally was in that jump seat. No MAN normally holds their Stetson Hat like a woman clutching a baby to her chest. The dipping of the (R) shoulder is being done to permit Connally making his (R) turnaround in these very cramped conditions. There is extremely little space between the Jump Seat and the side of the car. This was made obvious when Connally was seated in the JFK Limo at Love Field. They had to be careful when closing that rear passenger door and Not banging Connally's (R) leg with that door. In order to turn and face JFK in the backseat behind him, Connally had to manipulate his (R) Arm to make that turn around. The dipping of the (R) shoulder permitted Connally to turn around and face JFK.
What you are seeing is JBC flipping his arm upward in an involuntary reflexive response to being shot in the wrist. That up and down arm flip began at Z226 and lasted 9 frames. It is the strongest indication we have of the validity of the SBT as it shows JFK and JBC reacting reflexively at the same instant.
-
I doubt all the witnesses agree on what the accepted narrative is.
In this instance, the accepted narrative is obviously three shots. Two-shot witnesses tend to "get with the program." Not inevitably, but very often. This is especially likely to be true when all that is required to get with the program is to accept a noise that sounded sorta-kinda like a shot but didn't hit anything.
-
What you are seeing is JBC flipping his arm upward in an involuntary reflexive response to being shot in the wrist. That up and down arm flip began at Z226 and lasted 9 frames. It is the strongest indication we have of the validity of the SBT as it shows JFK and JBC reacting reflexively at the same instant.
Are you claiming that Gov Connally did Not turn around a look at JFK face-to-face? How could Connally do that without moving his (R) arm? This is what we are seeing with respect to the (R) arm. Connally is turning around, while seated, in a very confined space
-
Are you claiming that Gov Connally did Not turn around a look at JFK face-to-face? How could Connally do that without moving his (R) arm? This is what we are seeing with respect to the (R) arm. Connally is turning around, while seated, in a very confined space
Is that what you took from what I wrote? JBC didn't turn around and face JFK until more than two seconds after he was shot. The flipping of his right arm was almost immediate. It happened less than 1/4 second after he was hit.
-
Is that what you took from what I wrote? JBC didn't turn around and face JFK until more than two seconds after he was shot. The flipping of his right arm was almost immediate. It happened less than 1/4 second after he was hit.
What you are describing probably qualifies for the Guinness World Record, "Longest Delayed Reaction To Multiple Major Injuries".
-
What you are describing probably qualifies for the Guinness World Record, "Longest Delayed Reaction To Multiple Major Injuries".
It wasn't a delayed reaction. It was a reaction that began within a quarter second of JBC being shot and his gyrations in reaction to that shot lasted several seconds before he collapsed into Nellie's lap. Turning 180 degrees in his seat wasn't his first gyration. It was his last.
-
It wasn't a delayed reaction. It was a reaction that began within a quarter second of JBC being shot and his gyrations in reaction to that shot lasted several seconds before he collapsed into Nellie's lap. Turning 180 degrees in his seat wasn't his first gyration. It was his last.
"Gyrations"? Please specify.
-
Are you claiming that Gov Connally did Not turn around a look at JFK face-to-face? How could Connally do that without moving his (R) arm? This is what we are seeing with respect to the (R) arm. Connally is turning around, while seated, in a very confined space
Dear Stormtrooper Storing,
John Connally, having heard Oswald's early, missing-everything shot, turned his head quickly to his left in Z-150 and was photographed at Z-161 by Robert Croft as he was looking straight ahead.
Then in Z-164 he started turning his upper torso and head far to his right to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder, but by Z-175 JFK had turned his head far to his right and started waving to Mary Woodward and Co., and therefore JBC couldn't "see" (recognize) him out of the corner of his eye.
While turning back to his left around Z-190 to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his left shoulder, JBC was struck by CE-399 before he had gotten very far.
Rhetorical question: If I'm wrong and it wasn't until Z-250 or so that JBC started trying to catch a glimpse of JFK, why, then, didn't he see him in Z-265, etc., when he was facing him?
Answer: Because he, too, had been wounded by CE-399 at approximately Z-222, and was gyrating wildly in a state of shock.
-- Tom
-
Video of Ashli Babbit who was shot in the neck from the front on January 6th shows her arms in the Thorburn position when she was dying on her back on the floor...
-
Dear Stormtrooper Storing,
John Connally, having heard Oswald's early, missing-everything shot, turned his head quickly to his left in Z-150 and was photographed at Z-161 by Robert Croft as he was looking straight ahead.
Then in Z-164 he started turning his upper torso and head far to his right to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder, but by Z-175 JFK had turned his head far to his right and started waving to Mary Woodward and Co., and therefore JBC couldn't "see" (recognize) him out of the corner of his eye.
While turning back to his left around Z-190 to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his left shoulder, JBC was struck by CE-399 before he had gotten very far.
Rhetorical question: If I'm wrong and it wasn't until Z-250 or so that JBC started trying to catch a glimpse of JFK, why, then, didn't he see him in Z-265, etc., when he was facing him?
Answer: Because he, too, had been wounded by CE-399 at approximately Z-222, and was gyrating wildly in a state of shock.
-- Tom
There's a marked difference between "turning" and "turned around". Gov Connally was eventually fully facing JFK behind him. Gov Connally's upper torso had completely "turned around". Instead of facing the front bumper of the JFK Limo, he was facing the JFK Limo Trunk Lid. His upper torso had completely "turned around" as he faced JFK. You seem to believe it was easy for Gov Connally to "turned around" within the confines of his seated area. It was Not. Gov Connally had to dip his (R) shoulder in order for his upper torso to "turned around" and go face-to-face with JFK behind him. The space between Gov Connally's jump seat and the side of the JFK Limo was extremely minimal. It was difficult for Gov Connally to "turned around" to his (R) and eventually have his upper torso come Face-To-Face with JFK behind him.
-
There's a marked difference between "turning" and "turned around". Gov Connally was eventually fully facing JFK behind him. Gov Connally's upper torso had completely "turned around". Instead of facing the front bumper of the JFK Limo, he was facing the JFK Limo Trunk Lid. His upper torso had completely "turned around" as he faced JFK. You seem to believe it was easy for Gov Connally to "turned around" within the confines of his seated area. It was Not. Gov Connally had to dip his (R) shoulder in order for his upper torso to "turned around" and go face-to-face with JFK behind him. The space between Gov Connally's jump seat and the side of the JFK Limo was extremely minimal. It was difficult for Gov Connally to "turned around" to his (R) and eventually have his upper torso come Face-To-Face with JFK behind him.
Royell continues to ignore the fact JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at the same frame JFK's arms started upward and immediately after that he dipped and turned dramatically to his right. These combined movements were made in rapid succession immediately following JBC getting shot.
-
Royell continues to ignore the fact JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at the same frame JFK's arms started upward and immediately after that he dipped and turned dramatically to his right. These combined movements were made in rapid succession immediately following JBC getting shot.
Within an extremely confined space, Gov Connally was beginning to "turn around" to his (R). Kinda like sitting in a armless chair, inside a phone booth, and attempting to "turn around" your upper torso in order to face the opposite direction.
-
Within an extremely confined space, Gov Connally was beginning to "turn around" to his (R). Kinda like sitting in a armless chair, inside a phone booth, and attempting to "turn around" your upper torso in order to face the opposite direction.
And still Royell pretends the arm flip never happened.