JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat

[Lance Payette]

It's typical of your 'open-minded' approach. So is the way you just disappeared from the discussion on that thread once this evidence was presented to you, only for you to pop up elsewhere spewing the same discredited nonsense.

Dr. Payette does not "disappear." Dr. Payette is something substantially less than obsessed, becomes bored with tedious discussions and tedious people, yawns and moves on.

You have not demonstrated to Dr. Payette's satisfaction that anything has been "discredited" anywhere other than your own mind, which Dr. Payette declines to accept as a viable appeal to authority.

Would this perhaps be my final entry on the thread I "disappeared" from? Or is there a different thread from which I "disappeared"?

Yep, kinda what I thought: "John C mode," as it shall henceforth be known. "I decide what the evidence shows."

Is English your second language? "Right in front" and "almost directly in front" are "two completely different things?" I somehow missed that nuance in my 50+ years of writing and editing professionally. We are talking about a vehicle passing women on a curb a few feet away, and you insist "right in front" and "almost directly in front" are two "completely different things." Ho-kay ...

My "truly sad attempt" to "pass them off" is yet another example of "the dumbness" that "plagues" my every post? If you operate at this level of anger over an internet discussion, it's a wonder you haven't popped a vein or two - or perhaps you have? Do your wife and dog stay out of the room while you are spewing spittle over the keyboard lest you vent your fury on them? Jesus.

Dr. Payette, having dealt with umpteen fellow lawyers trying to wiggle out of a faux pas, would hazard a guess that you were caught with your pants down (figuratively speaking, or maybe not) and have seized upon the massive difference between "right in front" and "almost directly in front" in a bizarre and comical effort to save face because you simply can't stand to be wrong. Put your pants back on - no one really cares.

[Andrew Mason]

It's called waving. After Z195 he stopped waving and began lowering his right arm, a movement he continued until Z226 when both arms suddenly raised dramatically. I don't see anything odd about it.

So after smiling and waving, he assumed the grimace just for Zapruder at z225 and not an 18th of a second earlier?:



How do you know that the movement of his arms at z226 is immediately after he is shot?  Is it not possible that his sensation of something being wrong might have occurred in two stages - the second being when he found he couldn't breathe normally?

There is definitely a change in his hand, arm and head between z187 and z207:

[John Corbett]

So after smiling and waving, he assumed the grimace just for Zapruder at z225 and not an 18th of a second earlier?:

We don't know if JFK was grimacing in Z224 because his face wasn't visible.

How do you know that the movement of his arms at z226 is immediately after he is shot?

Because I am capable of exercising common sense. Reflex actions occur almost immediately after the stimulus.

Is it not possible that his sensation of something being wrong might have occurred in two stages - the second being when he found he couldn't breathe normally?

Reflex actions do not occur in stages.

There is definitely a change in his hand, arm and head between z187 and z207:

Yes there is. He stopped waving at the people to his right and started turning to face the front.

[Andrew Mason]

We don't know if JFK was grimacing in Z224 because his face wasn't visible.

You are right.  We don't know if he was grimacing at z224.  We also don't know that he wasn't reacting like that during the second or so he was behind the sign.  Your common sense then is to assume that he wasn't.  Your "common sense" is to assume that it was just an amazing coincidence that the first time he grimaced was the first frame when he came into Zapruder's view. I suggest that your definition of "common sense" is not all that common.

Because I am capable of exercising common sense. Reflex actions occur almost immediately after the stimulus.
Reflex actions do not occur in stages.
Yes there is. He stopped waving at the people to his right and started turning to face the front.

There is no evidence that JFK's reaction is a reflex.  A voluntary reaction will take at least 100 ms. to occur after the stimulus. A reflex reaction takes much less:  15-50 ms to start after the stimulus. So if JFK was shot at z223-224 as you suggest his reaction at z226 would not be a reflex.

[John Corbett]

You are right.  We don't know if he was grimacing at z224.  We also don't know that he wasn't reacting like that during the second or so he was behind the sign.  Your common sense then is to assume that he wasn't.  Your "common sense" is to assume that it was just an amazing coincidence that the first time he grimaced was the first frame when he came into Zapruder's view. I suggest that your definition of "common sense" is not all that common.There is no evidence that JFK's reaction is a reflex.  A voluntary reaction will take at least 100 ms. to occur after the stimulus. A reflex reaction takes much less:  15-50 ms to start after the stimulus. So if JFK was shot at z223-224 as you suggest his reaction at z226 would not be a reflex.

We can argue about whether JFK and JBC are exhibiting a reflex or cognitive response. What is unmistakable is that they are both reacting at precisely the same time and in the same manner by suddenly flipping their arms upward just 3 frames after we see JBC's jacket bulge outward. You want to write these events off as if they are coincidences. Another glaring example of how bad you are at weighing evidence.

[Andrew Mason]

We can argue about whether JFK and JBC are exhibiting a reflex or cognitive response. What is unmistakable is that they are both reacting at precisely the same time and in the same manner by suddenly flipping their arms upward just 3 frames after we see JBC's jacket bulge outward. You want to write these events off as if they are coincidences. Another glaring example of how bad you are at weighing evidence.

I have explained ad nauseum why those actions are consistent with JFK reacting to the effects of his neck wound that began around z193 and JBC beginning his reaction to hearing it, just as witnesses described it. The reactions are occurring at the same time because the overlap but they do not begin at the same time. JFK began his reaction before z225. It is not a random coincidence. Their actions are their responses to the first shot.

You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the zfilm is an idiot. That's an issue for you to deal with, not me.

[John Corbett]

I have explained ad nauseum why those actions are consistent with JFK reacting to the effects of his neck wound that began around z193 and JBC beginning his reaction to hearing it, just as witnesses described it. The reactions are occurring at the same time because the overlap but they do not begin at the same time. JFK began his reaction before z225. It is not a random coincidence. Their actions are their responses to the first shot.

You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the zfilm is an idiot. That's an issue for you to deal with, not me.

Yes, you have explained it many times and not once has your explanation made any sense.