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Author Topic: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat  (Read 5142 times)

Online John Corbett

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:41:13 PM »
There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point.  We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.

It tells people with good eyesight and a functioning brain when the second shot was fired that hit both JFK and JBC.

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #43 on: Today at 02:48:54 AM »
There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point.  We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.
 



Andrew, I have to disagree with you regarding Gov. Connally's being wounded after frame 255.

 In the Zapruder film, at frame 235, Connally is screaming "Oh no, no, no". after being struck.  His mouth is in speaking motion from that time on in the film until we lose sight of him following the fatal shot.  He stated in his WC testimony:
 
 " I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap ".

 The bullet has already passed through his back, chest, wrist and into his leg.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #44 on: Today at 04:59:46 AM »

Andrew, I have to disagree with you regarding Gov. Connally's being wounded after frame 255.

 In the Zapruder film, at frame 235, Connally is screaming "Oh no, no, no". after being struck.  His mouth is in speaking motion from that time on in the film until we lose sight of him following the fatal shot.  He stated in his WC testimony:
 
 " I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap ".

 The bullet has already passed through his back, chest, wrist and into his leg.
Hello Steve. I agree that he is saying "oh, no, no" around there.  We can see his mouth open at z244 but it may have been open a bit sooner. 

You have correctly stated his WC testimony.  But JBC told Life Magazine something different (Life, 25Nov66, p. 48):



And in 1978 he started to tell the HSCA that he said "oh, no, no" before he was hit and then changed his mind and said he guessed it was after.  But, perhaps most significant, he recalled saying it because he thought the President was being assassinated, not because he was hit by it (1 HSCA 43):



So, while one has to respect the Governor's testimony on that point, my question is: which of the three statements is accurate?  Nellie has always maintained that he said it before the second shot.  She also said that she looked back at JFK before the second shot and did not look back afterward.  She is looking back at him up to about z268.  Altgens said that his z255 photo was taken after the first and before any other shot. Hickey said he was looking at the President when the last two shots sounded. He is turned to the rear in Altgens and has yet to turn forward.  Gayle Newman said that JBC was turned to his right side when the second shot sounded and he just lay back (see her WFAA interview within half an hour of the events). She said the car was passing right in front of them when the second shot sounded.  According to Dr. Shires, Nellie told him that JBC was turned to his right when hit by the second shot.  Greer said he turned around "almost simultaneously" with the second shot and saw JBC in the process of laying back onto Nellie. We can see the final part of that first turn just before z283.

The other aspect that makes me think JBC's WC testimony is incorrect and Nellie's is correct is the lack of any other attempt to even turn his head to face the rear before the turn that begins about z230.  I know that both JBC and Nellie placed the second shot around z234 and that is worthy of consideration. But it is only an opinion of what they think he would have looked like, not what they saw, and it does not fit with the rest of Nellie's testimony.

The problem with JBC being hit earlier than z270 is not the zfilm.  It is the rest of the evidence.  The zfilm by itself is, at best, equivocal in placing the time of the second shot.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:05:52 AM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #45 on: Today at 10:49:45 AM »
As JFK emerges from behind the Stemmons sign his left arm is down by his side, as it was before he passed behind the sign.
Less than half a second later it has flown up from this resting position into the extreme hyper-extension of the elbows, curled wrists and stiffly pointing index finger. Somewhere in "The First Shot" thread Brian Roselle had an excellent post about how JFK's hand/wrist position resemble rapid onset spasticity. The rapidity, extremeness and distorted nature of his arm movements indicate massive nerve damage. This kind of response occurs milliseconds after the initial 'stimulus'. It is the reaction to a shot passing through him at z222/223. The first signs of reaction are visible around z225.
There are no indications whatsoever that JFK was reacting to anything before this point. Suggestions to the contrary have been recently debunked ("When Was JFK HIT", REPLY#14)
Also posted on the same thread was the following:

Cavitation is an effect where a bullet passing through soft tissue, as demonstrated in the video below:


It isn't just the bullet that causes damage when it passes through a body. Cavitation can have an equally devastating effect on the tissue and, in particular nerves. When the bullet passes through JFK's neck, there is the damage caused by the bullet and damage caused by cavitation. The bullet passes through an area called the Brachial Plexus, an area dense in nerves coming out of the spinal column. In the diagram below the red dot represents the approximate position the bullet enters his upper back/lower neck:




Comments from Dr. Robert Artwohl explaining why we saw the arms stiffening upward.
“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”

"Comments from neurologist Dr. Strully in a letter sent by Dr. Strully to Dr. Robert Artwohl, dated April 9, 1994 as to an even greater possible extent of the muscle contractions:

 "Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck.  This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck.  This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last.  All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment…” [posted by Brian Roselle]

The effect of cavitation causes an "instantaneous" contraction of all the arm muscles. This is clearly seen in the Z-film as JFK's elbows fly up to their highest point and the top half of his body appears to momentarily stiffen. It is a radical, extreme and instantaneous reflex reaction caused by the wholesale damage of nerves in the Brachial Plexus.
How quickly is "instantaneous" for a reflex reaction:


"While human reaction times tend to require hundreds of milliseconds, "One of the fastest [neural feedback] loops is from arm sensors to spinal cord and back out to arm muscles: it takes 110 milliseconds for feedback corrections to be made to an arm movement." (William H. Calvin, "The unitary hypothesis: A common neural circuitry for novel manipulations, language, plan-ahead, and throwing?" in Tools, Language, and Cognition in Human Evolution, edited by Kathleen R. Gibson and Tim Ingold. Cambridge University Press, pp. 230-250, [1993].)

So there could already be a reaction of a subject's arms in as early as 110 milliseconds, the equivalent of two Zapruder frames. But, of course, with JFK and Gov. Connally shot between 223 and 224, we should not be able to discern a significant reaction before frame 226. While only a few milliseconds later, this would still be too late.

« Last Edit: Today at 11:35:32 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #46 on: Today at 01:04:42 PM »
I guess we are all entitled to be our own little photographic panels and medical panels, but it certainly looks to me like "something is going on" with JFKA after Z195. The right arm seems locked in a distinctly odd position.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #47 on: Today at 01:22:15 PM »
I guess we are all entitled to be our own little photographic panels and medical panels, but it certainly looks to me like "something is going on" with JFKA after Z195. The right arm seems locked in a distinctly odd position.

Instead of saying "looks to me like" [ ::)] I've provided photographic proof that the HSCA's photographic panel was incorrect regarding JFK's movements as he passed behind the Stemmons sign.
It is par for the course that you have ignored, and are downplaying, this irrefutable evidence. It's typical of your 'open-minded' approach. So is the way you just disappeared from the discussion on that thread once this evidence was presented to you, only for you to pop up elsewhere spewing the same discredited nonsense.

There is no evidence whatsoever that JFK was reacting to a shot prior to z225. His arm is in the air because he is waving, that's it. He doesn't rapidly turn to face Jackie, that has been proven to be incorrect.
Reassess the evidence presented on this point.
You seem so enamoured by figures in authority that you find it difficult to accept a non-expert could offer any new insight. Even when it is put right in front of your face.
The HSCA photographic panel was wrong on this particular issue. That has been proven. You don't need to see what it 'looks like'.

Online John Corbett

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Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Reply #48 on: Today at 01:22:31 PM »
I guess we are all entitled to be our own little photographic panels and medical panels, but it certainly looks to me like "something is going on" with JFKA after Z195. The right arm seems locked in a distinctly odd position.

It's called waving. After Z195 he stopped waving and began lowering his right arm, a movement he continued until Z226 when both arms suddenly raised dramatically. I don't see anything odd about it.