JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2021, 09:46:06 PM
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It seems strange that Lee Oswald was officially arrested for the murder of DPD officer JD Tippit, But as near as I can tell he wasn't interrogated extensively for that crime.
Captain Fritz knew that Lee had left the rooming house at about 1:03 pm, and he knew that Helen Markham had sworn that she had witnessed the murder of officer Tippit at 1:06. And there's no way to deny that Fritz had this information while he was interrogating Lee Oswald.....and yet I don't recall that Fritz asked him anything about his whereabouts from 1:03 until 1:15 . ????
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It seems strange that Lee Oswald was officially arrested for the murder of DPD officer JD Tippit, But as near as I can tell he wasn't interrogated extensively for that crime.
Captain Fritz knew that Lee had left the rooming house at about 1:03 pm, and he knew that Helen Markham had sworn that she had witnessed the murder of officer Tippit at 1:06. And there's no way to deny that Fritz had this information while he was interrogating Lee Oswald.....and yet I don't recall that Fritz asked him anything about his whereabouts from 1:03 until 1:15 . ????
I'm sure that someone will ask the question .... Why didn't Fritz ask Lee about his whereabouts from 1:03 until he was dragged from the theater?
I believe the very obvious answer to that question is:....Fritz knew that Lee had taken a bus to the theater and he knew that Lee was on was on the bus or in the theater during the time period from 1:03 until 1: 45........ and thus he could not have been the man who shot J.D. Tippit.
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It seems strange that Lee Oswald was officially arrested for the murder of DPD officer JD Tippit, But as near as I can tell he wasn't interrogated extensively for that crime.
Captain Fritz knew that Lee had left the rooming house at about 1:03 pm, and he knew that Helen Markham had sworn that she had witnessed the murder of officer Tippit at 1:06. And there's no way to deny that Fritz had this information while he was interrogating Lee Oswald.....and yet I don't recall that Fritz asked him anything about his whereabouts from 1:03 until 1:15 . ????
Most people even until today are unaware of Tippit's murder by Oswald. It is overshadowed by the assassination. As terrible as that event was, solving the assassination of the President of the United States was the immediate priority. The DPD knew that Oswald worked in the building from which the shots were fired and had fled immediately after the assassination. They did ask him for information about why he had a pistol at the TT and so forth. So it's not like they exactly ignored his activities after 1PM but the obvious priority was the assassination.
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Most people even until today are unaware of Tippit's murder by Oswald. It is overshadowed by the assassination. As terrible as that event was, solving the assassination of the President of the United States was the immediate priority. The DPD knew that Oswald worked in the building from which the shots were fired and had fled immediately after the assassination. They did ask him for information about why he had a pistol at the TT and so forth. So it's not like they exactly ignored his activities after 1PM but the obvious priority was the assassination.
That's nothing but glib BS.....
Why didn't Fritz ask LHO for his whereabouts for the time period between 1:03 and 1:15 ?? Fritz knew that Lee's land lady, Mrs Roberts, had reported that she had last seen LHO standing at the bus stop in front of the rooming house at 1:03.
And he knew that Helen Markham had swore that she had witnessed the murder of officer JD Tippit at 1:06 .....
So why didn't Fritz ask Lee where he was between 1:05 and 1:15 ??
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Most people even until today are unaware of Tippit's murder by Oswald.
Nonsense-- it was too well publicized.
Oswald refused to answer any more questions it was stated. He requested an attorney that he would never see.
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(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/36_20_21.gif) Thumb1: Needs to lay off the sauce.
Needs to lay off the sauce.
I doubt that that remedy would have any effect on our Mr "Smith" ..... However, I do believe that Mr "Smith" understands that the reason that Captain Fritz didn't ask Lee any questions pertaining to the murder of JD Tippit is; Because he didn't want to hear Lee's answers. and then have Hosty and Bookhout record those answers.
Lee had already told Fritz that he went to the theater on a bus. And He sure as hell didn't want Lee elaborating and giving details about the bus ride. It's possible that Lee knew the driver of that Beckley Ave bus, because he said that he often used the bus to travel in and around Dallas.... It would have really made he cheese binding for Fritz if Lee had said that when he boarded the bus to the theater he recognized Mr Williams ( for example) as the driver.
If Lee had identified "Mr Williams " as the driver of the bus that he rode in to the theater..... Mr Williams obit would probably have appeared in the paper as the victim of a hit and run driver, or some other accident.
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Needs to lay off the sauce.
I doubt that that remedy would have any effect on our Mr "Smith" ..... However, I do believe that Mr "Smith" understands that the reason that Captain Fritz didn't ask Lee any questions pertaining to the murder of JD Tippit is; Because he didn't want to hear Lee's answers. and then have Hosty and Bookhout record those answers.
Lee had already told Fritz that he went to the theater on a bus. And He sure as hell didn't want Lee elaborating and giving details about the bus ride. It's possible that Lee knew the driver of that Beckley Ave bus, because he said that he often used the bus to travel in and around Dallas.... It would have really made he cheese binding for Fritz if Lee had said that when he boarded the bus to the theater he recognized Mr Williams ( for example) as the driver.
If Lee had identified "Mr Williams " as the driver of the bus that he rode in to the theater..... Mr Williams obit would probably have appeared in the paper as the victim of a hit and run driver, or some other accident.
I'm confused about the CTer narrative on the interrogation. They often suggest it can't be relied upon because there was no tape etc. If the DPD were just making all the interrogation evidence up to suit their purpose of framing Oswald, why does it matter what they asked or didn't ask him? It's bizarre to suggest they didn't ask him something in the interrogation because of a fear of his response while suggesting the DPD just made up whatever suited their purposes.
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I'm confused about the CTer narrative on the interrogation. They often suggest it can't be relied upon because there was no tape etc. If the DPD were just making all the interrogation evidence up to suit their purpose of framing Oswald, why does it matter what they asked or didn't ask him? It's bizarre to suggest they didn't ask him something in the interrogation because of a fear of his response while suggesting the DPD just made up whatever suited their purposes.
Psssst..... Mr "Smith" there were other men in the interrogation room, (Men who Fritz could not control) Fritz wasn't so crazy as to ask a question that might draw an answer that he didn't want recorded.... A question like:...Tell me about the bus ride to the theater Lee.... Was there anybody on that bus that you knew, a former neighbor perhaps?
What if Lee had answered; Well yes as a matter of fact Mrs Jones was on the bus, I know her because she was a neighbor who used to talk to Marina and Junie.....
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It seems strange that Lee Oswald was officially arrested for the murder of DPD officer JD Tippit, But as near as I can tell he wasn't interrogated extensively for that crime.
Captain Fritz knew that Lee had left the rooming house at about 1:03 pm, and he knew that Helen Markham had sworn that she had witnessed the murder of officer Tippit at 1:06. And there's no way to deny that Fritz had this information while he was interrogating Lee Oswald.....and yet I don't recall that Fritz asked him anything about his whereabouts from 1:03 until 1:15 . ????
Perhaps it was because several people had identified LHO as either the murderer of Tippit, or fleeing the Tippit murder scene, or acting suspiciously in front of the nearby shoe store, or entering the Texas Theater without paying. Fritz probably already believed he had enough information about his whereabouts during that time period. There were plenty of other questions Fritz wanted to ask. Why waste time asking about something that was apparently already answered?
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Psssst..... Mr "Smith" there were other men in the interrogation room, (Men who Fritz could not control) Fritz wasn't so crazy as to ask a question that might draw an answer that he didn't want recorded.... A question like:...Tell me about the bus ride to the theater Lee.... Was there anybody on that bus that you knew, a former neighbor perhaps?
What if Lee had answered; Well yes as a matter of fact Mrs Jones was on the bus, I know her because she was a neighbor who used to talk to Marina and Junie.....
Oh good. So we can rely on the answers given during the interrogation and forget about all those objections CTers have raised because it was not taped or transcribed.
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Perhaps it was because several people had identified LHO as either the murderer of Tippit, or fleeing the Tippit murder scene, or acting suspiciously in front of the nearby shoe store, or entering the Texas Theater without paying. Fritz probably already believed he had enough information about his whereabouts during that time period. There were plenty of other questions Fritz wanted to ask. Why waste time asking about something that was apparently already answered?
Yes indeed why waste time when a man's life is at stake..... We don't need to listen to what he has to say.... Get a rope.
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Yes indeed why waste time when a man's life is at stake..... We don't need to listen to what he has to say.... Get a rope.
No one anticipated what Jack Ruby did. If that hadn’t happened, and LHO had had time to lawyer-up, we would have heard all his lies before he was sent to the electric chair.
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No one anticipated what Jack Ruby did. If that hadn’t happened, and LHO had had time to lawyer-up, we would have heard all his lies before he was sent to the electric chair.
What is it that prevents you from seeing the truth?? None is so blind as he who will not open his eyes and see.....
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What is it that prevents you from seeing the truth?? None is so blind as he who will not open his eyes and see.....
I used to believe that there just had to be a conspiracy. Then I suspended that belief long enough to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind. And after doing so, I was able to see that my original belief was in error. Your mileage may vary. If you want to continue to believe in a conspiracy, that is your prerogative.
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I used to believe that there just had to be a conspiracy. Then I suspended that belief long enough to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind. And after doing so, I was able to see that my original belief was in error. Your mileage may vary. If you want to continue to believe in a conspiracy, that is your prerogative.
It would be a great comfort to abandon my senses and accept the fairy tale.... But my God given senses tell me that Lee Oswald was railroaded. Of this there is no doubt.
One thing that I've observed about the LNer's is they all have a blind hatred for Lee Oswald. Lil Chappie even started a thread " Oswald got what he deserved".....( to be lynched without a trial ) There are few men in history that I would say " He got what he deserved " Even Adolph Hitler should have had his day in court.....
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It would be a great comfort to abandon my senses and accept the fairy tale.... But my God given senses tell me that Lee Oswald was railroaded. Of this there is no doubt.
One thing that I've observed about the LNer's is they all have a blind hatred for Lee Oswald. Lil Chappie even started a thread " Oswald got what he deserved".....( to be lynched without a trial ) There are few men in history that I would say " He got what he deserved " Even Adolph Hitler should have had his day in court.....
Why would anyone single out Oswald for "blind hatred" in order to blame him for this crime? No one hated Oswald before 11.22 and decided to blame him for the assassination as a result. It's the evidence that confirms Oswald is a double murderer rather than any animosity toward him. Should Oswald have gotten his day in court? Sure. In a perfect world even the worst of the worst are entitled to a trial but an opinion expressed 60 years after the fact that he got what he deserved is valid. The penalty for murder in Texas was death (certainly in the days before the liberals made it almost impossible to enforce the law).
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It would be a great comfort to abandon my senses and accept the fairy tale.... But my God given senses tell me that Lee Oswald was railroaded. Of this there is no doubt.
One thing that I've observed about the LNer's is they all have a blind hatred for Lee Oswald. Lil Chappie even started a thread " Oswald got what he deserved".....( to be lynched without a trial ) There are few men in history that I would say " He got what he deserved " Even Adolph Hitler should have had his day in court.....
Hitler probably could have had his day in court. However, he apparently chose suicide instead.
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What a bizarre argument since your posting history shows that your haven't got the faintest idea of the evidence in the case.
Thumb1: I agree completely Otto..... Our Mr. "Smith" simply regurgitates the finding of LBJ's Warren Commission, I've yet to see a glimmer of solid reasoning by Mr. Smith.
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Thumb1: I agree completely Otto..... Our Mr. "Smith" simply regurgitates the finding of LBJ's Warren Commission, I've yet to see a glimmer of solid reasoning by Mr. Smith.
Ask a question, be given a response to the question, deflect with personal attacks to avoid making any substantive rebuttal to the response. Again, why do you think anyone would have animosity toward Oswald or any opinion of him except for his involvement in the assassination? You are implying that LNers blame Oswald for the assassination because they dislike him for some unspecified reason. That is absurd.
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Hitler probably could have had his day in court. However, he apparently chose suicide instead.
Because.....Worse than death awaited Hitler if/when the Soviets got to him :-\
BTW...would folks who believed that der Fuehrer got out of Germany- escaped to South America and lived to a ripe old age-be called conspiracy theorists?
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Ask a question ....
I revised my comment above. https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3120.msg117104.html#msg117104
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I used to believe that there just had to be a conspiracy. Then I suspended that belief long enough to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind. And after doing so, I was able to see that my original belief was in error.
If I recall -were you not converted from JFK conspiracyism by Hugh Aynesworth?
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If I recall -were you not converted from JFK conspiracyism by Hugh Aynesworth?
No, it was more like a realization that the conspiracy theories were nothing more than conjecture and innuendo.
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No, it was more like a realization that the conspiracy theories were nothing more than conjecture and innuendo.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2759.msg101044.html#msg101044
Then I responded.... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2759.msg101183.html#msg101183
No doubt you remember this thread... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2325.msg69842.html#msg69842
The one factoid I could never resolve---Hugh Aynesworth was without a doubt the most prolific witness according to every account of the events of Nov 22 '63--- A Mr Everywhere and on top of everything---- Dealey Plaza..the Tippit shooting location..the Texas Theater..the police basement at the Ruby shooting..[at least according to him] and yet he was never called as a witness to testify to anything :-\
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2759.msg101044.html#msg101044
Then I responded.... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2759.msg101183.html#msg101183
No doubt you remember this thread... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2325.msg69842.html#msg69842
The one factoid I could never resolve---Hugh Aynesworth was without a doubt the most prolific witness according to every account of the events of Nov 22 '63--- A Mr Everywhere and on top of everything---- Dealey Plaza..the Tippit shooting location..the Texas Theater..the police basement at the Ruby shooting..[at least according to him] and yet he was never called as a witness to testify to anything :-\
Is there a point to your post?
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So you're left with your own conjecture and the WC innuendo.
Which one is it?
Conjecture:
1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof
2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
The difference is that after almost 58-years of trying to shed doubt on and poke holes in the evidence, I believe that the doubters have accomplished nothing. They have no credible evidence to support a conspiracy. And, generally speaking, have only fooled themselves with confirmation bias simply because they do not trust anyone in power whatsoever.
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But that didn't answer my question.
Your question is loaded and invalid because it assumes the sentence before it is correct. It is not.
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You see a third option?
Yeah, how about you (Otto go home) give up attacking others and deal with the realities of the JFK assassination case.
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Yeah, how about you (Otto go home) give up attacking others and deal with the realities of the JFK assassination case.
You should heed your own advice, Mr Collins...."deal with the realities of the JFK assassination case."
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You should heed your own advice, Mr Collins...."deal with the realities of the JFK assassination case."
It is quite obvious to most of us that your “realities” are unique to you.
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It is quite obvious to most of us that your “realities” are unique to you.
Ok, Let's debate just one of my realities.....
I'll remind you that I've already hammered you on your contention that the two parallel lines that can be clearly seen on the "Palm print photo" (CE639) couldn't possibly have been made by the bayonet lug as you contend.... Because the bayonet lug on a carcano is 5/16" wide and the two lines are only 3/16" apart.....
Do you want to want to debate another of "My realities" ??
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Ok, Let's debate just one of my realities.....
I'll remind you that I've already hammered you on your contention that the two parallel lines that can be clearly seen on the "Palm print photo" (CE639) couldn't possibly have been made by the bayonet lug as you contend.... Because the bayonet lug on a carcano is 5/16" wide and the two lines are only 3/16" apart.....
Do you want to want to debate another of "My realities" ??
The lines are ~5/16” apart. Jerry Organ has provided graphical evidence of this. And I confirmed it by printing the palm print to approximately full-scale according to my hand size, and similarly scaling the image of the lift (with the parallel lines) by matching up the contours lines of the lift to the full-scale print. There is no doubt that this is reality. Have you found anyone that agrees with your contention otherwise? Or is this “reality” unique to you?
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The lines are ~5/16” apart. Jerry Organ has provided graphical evidence of this. And I confirmed it by printing the palm print to approximately full-scale according to my hand size, and similarly scaling the image of the lift (with the parallel lines) by matching up the contours lines of the lift to the full-scale print. There is no doubt that this is reality. Have you found anyone that agrees with your contention otherwise? Or is this “reality” unique to you?
You're FOS, Mr Collins..... The lines ( 5/16" apart) that you created by using the bayonet lug don't even resemble the lines that are seen on the "Palm print" photo, which are 3/16" apart... I'm utterly amazed that you'd attempt to rebut the evidence with such utter nonsense.
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Is there a point to your post?
You are not the only reader here [though you seem to act as much] so perhaps the furnished links may be interesting to others.
I believe that the doubters have accomplished nothing. They have no credible evidence to support a conspiracy. And, generally speaking, have only fooled themselves with confirmation bias simply because they do not trust anyone in power whatsoever.
Spoken like a true blue snowflake. You do not have to provide 'evidence' as support of doubt. All you have to do is just doubt that someone else either-- has failed to produce enough evidence to support what they believe....or [as with me] consideration that the timing of the events suggested by the official statements are physically implausible.
Consider the people in power now along with the lying medias' talking yakking points ...the blunders and hog slop decisions during the past year are intolerable.
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You are not the only reader here [though you seem to act as much] so perhaps the furnished links may be interesting to others.
Spoken like a true blue snowflake. You do not have to provide 'evidence' as support of doubt. All you have to do is just doubt that someone else either-- has failed to produce enough evidence to support what they believe....or [as with me] consideration that the timing of the events suggested by the official statements are physically implausible.
Consider the people in power now along with the lying medias' talking yakking points ...the blunders and hog slop decisions during the past year are intolerable.
Consider the people in power now along with the lying medias' talking yakking points ...the blunders and hog slop decisions during the past year are intolerable.
Now you've done it, Mr Freeman..... The LNer loonies will be out in force now.....
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You see a third option?
Yeah, how about you (Otto go home) give up attacking others and deal with the realities of the JFK assassination case.
'Otto go home'? what does that mean? Leave the forum because he doesn't agree with you?
Deal with what you consider reality? You never were in the majority that you think you are-----
Trend: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963
Thirty percent of Americans believe that Oswald, who was apprehended by Dallas police hours after Kennedy was shot on Nov. 22, 1963, was the lone gunman in the murder. The Warren Commission, the official government investigation into the assassination, concluded that Oswald acted alone. Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby two days after the Kennedy assassination and therefore never stood trial, leaving many questions unanswered.
(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/dolzvblqn0wqheivhj1k7q.png)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/165893/majority-believe-jfk-killed-conspiracy.aspx
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'Otto go home'? what does that mean? Leave the forum because he doesn't agree with you?
Deal with what you consider reality? You never were in the majority that you think you are-----(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/dolzvblqn0wqheivhj1k7q.png)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/165893/majority-believe-jfk-killed-conspiracy.aspx
Statistics can be misleading. How many of those disbelievers actually know very many of the details of the case? Just because some opinions are popular doesn’t mean that they are correct. Example: More people believe that dreams can foretell the future than not…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/24/study-democrats-are-more-likely-than-republicans-to-believe-in-fortune-telling-astrology-and-ghosts/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/24/study-democrats-are-more-likely-than-republicans-to-believe-in-fortune-telling-astrology-and-ghosts/)
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Statistics can be misleading.
Says the strawman.
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Says the strawman.
Do you believe that the opinions of the vast majority of the people (who know very few, if any details of the case) are just as important as the opinions of those who have studied the case in detail for many years?
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I used to believe that there just had to be a conspiracy. Then I suspended that belief long enough to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind. And after doing so, I was able to see that my original belief was in error. Your mileage may vary. If you want to continue to believe in a conspiracy, that is your prerogative.
I used to believe that there just had to be a conspiracy. Then I suspended that belief long enough to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind. And after doing so, I was able to see that my original belief was in error.
I believe what we have here is a gargantuan ego problem..... If Charlie couldn't come up with the solution then he'll simply accept the tale dumped on us pissants by LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon committee..... After all Charlie is one of those superior intellects ......
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Psssst..... Mr "Smith" there were other men in the interrogation room, (Men who Fritz could not control) Fritz wasn't so crazy as to ask a question that might draw an answer that he didn't want recorded.... A question like:...Tell me about the bus ride to the theater Lee.... Was there anybody on that bus that you knew, a former neighbor perhaps?
What if Lee had answered; Well yes as a matter of fact Mrs Jones was on the bus, I know her because she was a neighbor who used to talk to Marina and Junie.....
Hooorah!.....I believe that I've stumbled upon the reason that Captain Fritz never asked Lee about his whereabouts for the time period between 1:03 and 1:30....... ( The period in which JD Tippit was shot)
In Sylvia Meagher's book Accessories After The Fact ( page 260) Meagher wrote:...."The first news flashes out of Dallas on the Tippit shooting said that he had been shot to death when he and another policeman pursued a suspect in the assassination into the Texas Theater following a tip. The suspect -Lee Harvey Oswald- had shot Tippit. He was subdued and arrested by other policemen.
By the next day , newspapers reported that Tippit had actually been shot and killed some blocks away from the theater and that Oswald had been arrested for Tippitt's murder, not for the assassination of the President."
So at the time Lee was brought into the Dallas police headquarters Fritz believed that Tippit had been shot at the Theater....
This would provide an answer to the question...WHY DIDN'T FRITZ ASK LEE OSWALD ANYTHING ABOUT TIPPIT"S MURDER ?
Fritz thought that Lee Oswald had shot Tippit at the theater.....
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Depends on what "studied" means.
From the dictionary (as it applies here):
to examine or investigate carefully and in detail
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I used to believe that there just had to be a conspiracy. Then I suspended that belief long enough to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind. And after doing so, I was able to see that my original belief was in error.
I believe what we have here is a gargantuan ego problem..... If Charlie couldn't come up with the solution then he'll simply accept the tale dumped on us pissants by LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon committee..... After all Charlie is one of those superior intellects ......
There is no need to re-invent the wheel. In this case, the “shoe fits.”
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Do you believe that the opinions of the vast majority of the people (who know very few, if any details of the case) are just as important as the opinions of those who have studied the case in detail for many years?
Do you actually consider that "the vast majority of people" are idiots--incapable of discerning the information that you.. the scholarly intellectual.... feel that you [aside from those who might tend agree with you] solely possess?
Opinions are like the orifice in the backside...everybody has one. You are entitled to yours no matter how illusory.
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Do you actually consider that "the vast majority of people" are idiots--incapable of discerning the information that you.. the scholarly intellectual.... feel that you [aside from those who might tend agree with you] solely possess?
Opinions are like the orifice in the backside...everybody has one. You are entitled to yours no matter how illusory.
Opinions are like the orifice in the backside...everybody has one.
Some expel more stinkin gas than others..... Mr Collins for example...
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Fritz knew that Lee had taken a bus to the theater...
Tell me Walt --- Why have you decided (on your own) to just invent a bus trip to the Texas Theater for Lee Oswald on 11/22?
No such bus trip occurred and you know it. And there's not a speck of evidence to support such a bus trip "to the theater" either.
So why do you now want to pretend such a bus trip occurred on Nov. 22nd?
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Tell me Walt --- Why have you decided (on your own) to just invent a bus trip to the Texas Theater for Lee Oswald on 11/22?
No such bus trip occurred and you know it. And there's not a speck of evidence to support such a bus trip "to the theater" either.
So why do you now want to pretend such a bus trip occurred on Nov. 22nd?
Perhaps you need to study the information a bit with your head extracted....
There most certainly is evidence that Lee rode in a bus to the Theater......I've already posted it so just extract your head and look....
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Do you actually consider that "the vast majority of people" are idiots--incapable of discerning the information that you.. the scholarly intellectual.... feel that you [aside from those who might tend agree with you] solely possess?
Opinions are like the orifice in the backside...everybody has one. You are entitled to yours no matter how illusory.
Do you actually consider that "the vast majority of people" are idiots--incapable of discerning the information….
No, and that is not what I said or suggested. The vast majority of the people have not taken the time or effort to learn the details. That makes them ignorant (relatively speaking compared to those who have studied the case), not idiots. I would assume that most people are capable of learning the details and forming an informed opinion. But for various reasons of their own, most people have not learned the details. Therefore, their ignorant opinions are not the same as the opinions of others who have studied the case and learned the details.
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Right, so there's no reason to assume the "One man" believers have any grasp of the details either just because they are a minority, as in this quote:
The difference is that after almost 58-years of trying to shed doubt on and poke holes in the evidence, I believe that the doubters have accomplished nothing.
just because they are a minority
You need to put your thinking cap on. No one has cited being in a minority as a reason for anything. And what makes you say that the lack of accomplishments by the naysayers means anything of the sorts?
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Tell me Walt --- Why have you decided (on your own) to just invent a bus trip to the Texas Theater for Lee Oswald on 11/22?
No such bus trip occurred and you know it. And there's not a speck of evidence to support such a bus trip "to the theater" either.
So why do you now want to pretend such a bus trip occurred on Nov. 22nd?
Pretend??...Have someone who can understand the written word read Thomas Kelley's report to you...On Page 626 Secret Service inspector Wrote:...In response to questions put to him by Captain Fritz, Oswald said that immediately after having left the building where he worked he WENT BY BUS to the theater where he was arrested.
And yes, I'm aware that Lee a few minutes later corrected that statement by saying that the portion of the trip from downtown Dallas to the rooming house was by taxi......But he did NOT change the portion of the trip from the rooming house to the theater....He rode the bus to the theater where he was arrested..... That's what Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz....
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Pretend??...Have someone who can understand the written word read Thomas Kelley's report to you...On Page 626 Secret Service inspector Wrote:...In response to questions put to him by Captain Fritz, Oswald said that immediately after having left the building where he worked he WENT BY BUS to the theater where he was arrested.
And yes, I'm aware that Lee a few minutes later corrected that statement by saying that the portion of the trip from downtown Dallas to the rooming house was by taxi......But he did NOT change the portion of the trip from the rooming house to the theater....He rode the bus to the theater where he was arrested..... That's what Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz....
Witnesses speak louder than you
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXMy1kFy/08-IPhone-OSWALD-TIPPIT-MARKHAM.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9F1VtBP6/09-i-Phone-OSWALD-OAK-CLIFF.png)
billchapman
1) Markham's view to a kill
2) Scoggins (hears Oswald say 'poor dumb cop')
3) Callaway 'hey, man what the hell is going on?'
Three witnesses right-off-the bat who can swear Oswald wasn't on a bus at the time
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2JcD48G/LOGO.png)
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No such bus trip occurred and you know it. And there's not a speck of evidence to support such a bus trip "to the theater" either.
The housekeeper's affidavit---I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the
bus stop just to the right and on the same side of the street as our
house. I just glanced out the window that once. I don't know how long
Lee Oswald stood at the curb, nor did l see the direction he went when
he left there. About thirty minutes later...three Dallas policemen came to
the house looking for him.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Roberts_aff.pdf
Her complete typed deposition---Apr '64
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tippit%20J%20D%20Murder/Item%2012.pdf
I am pretty sure these links are contained in the DVP site but I don't have anything bookmarked.
A couple of things become apparent. It can be either assumed that Mrs Roberts was totally senile and Oswald actually-- immediately turned left out the door and headed south for some rendezvous with destiny-- or Oswald waited at this bus stop and then changed his mind [which further complicates the time frame] The only other alternative would be that Oswald had strolled across Beckley to Zang and proceeded southerly until he got to Jefferson and to the TT.
The bus transfer pass is bothersome. It is marked 'good for 15 minutes within time indicated'. I am not sure what that means because I see AM PM. If Oswald was walking down Zang and he senses a bus coming ..he could have hurried to the nearest bus stop and used that pass IF he indeed had it and shortened his hike. If he did have that pass then that strongly indicates that he was on the McWatters bus and did not use the transfer.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQL-9cOCwlCFmSOwQ4DsDk4aJN0cyKf4YSGhg&usqp=CAU)
Didn't Oswald take the bus to work and back when he lived at that rooming house? It would have been routine to catch the same bus.. driven [perhaps] by the same driver at the same time. Why didn't anyone investigate this? Why didn't some driver step up and mention that 'Hey- that guy rode on my bus'. They might have noticed him associating with someone perhaps.
Was Mrs Roberts correct in saying that three cops came looking for Lee about a 1/2 hour after he left?
Why? He wasn't a known suspect in anything for another hour and a half or so. Even at that...his work told police he lived in Irving.
In the affidavit prepared by the secret Service, she says that approximately 1 p.m- Oswald, then known to her
as 0. H. Lee, came in and went to his room.
He was not wearing a jacket when he came in but was when he left a few minutes after his arrival
Of the jacket he said, "I recall the jacket was a dark color and it was the type that zips up the front.
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Witnesses speak louder than you
No they don't...they're dead.
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"lack of accomplishments" -- LOL
The WC fanboys are routinely destroyed on this forum.
I was simply pointing out how you cleverly implied the ill-informed should be found among those holding the majority opinion.
The WC fanboys are routinely destroyed on this forum.
It appears that your view of the discussions on this forum is quite different from mine. I would say the opposite is true. Apparently, confirmation bias is rampant here.
I was simply pointing out how you cleverly implied the ill-informed should be found among those holding the majority opinion.
I never said or implied that. Ignorance isn’t confined to only the people on one side of the argument. However, if the majority believes in a conspiracy, then the chances are good that a majority of the ignorant folks believe in a conspiracy. My point is better spelled out in the following passage written by someone else (unknown) that caught my attention recently:
One of the most dangerous ideas that has come about in the last 3 years is that all points of view are equally valid, and that Average Citizen (YOU) are just as equipped to judge which have merit as anyone else.
“Hear all sides, and judge for yourself!” No, I do not condone the death of Expertise, and neither should you.
I am an expert in very, very few things. But in those areas, my expertise is hard earned through study, work, experience, and aptitude. None of it comes from attending Google University. But unless you are an expert in exactly the same areas, your opinion is not just as valid as mine. It’s not.
And my opinion is not as valid as experts in other fields. That is why THEY ARE THE EXPERTS. So if our leading epidemiologists largely agree that “A” is correct, our response should not be “I’ll listen to both and decide which makes sense to me.” Confirmation bias exists, and only fools think they are free of it. To paraphrase Asimov, your ignorance is not the same as their experience. Genuinely smart people look for answers from people who are smarter than themselves. Only ignorant people believe their guess is as good as anyone else’s
To put this in context with what we have been discussing, it means what I originally said: that statistics can be misleading. Just because a majority believes in conspiracy, doesn’t mean that the existence of a conspiracy is correct. In my opinion, it simply means that a majority doesn’t generally trust the authorities.
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Hooorah!.....I believe that I've stumbled upon the reason that Captain Fritz never asked Lee about his whereabouts for the time period between 1:03 and 1:30....... ( The period in which JD Tippit was shot)
In Sylvia Meagher's book Accessories After The Fact ( page 260) Meagher wrote:...."The first news flashes out of Dallas on the Tippit shooting said that he had been shot to death when he and another policeman pursued a suspect in the assassination into the Texas Theater following a tip. The suspect -Lee Harvey Oswald- had shot Tippit. He was subdued and arrested by other policemen.
By the next day , newspapers reported that Tippit had actually been shot and killed some blocks away from the theater and that Oswald had been arrested for Tippitt's murder, not for the assassination of the President."
So at the time Lee was brought into the Dallas police headquarters Fritz believed that Tippit had been shot at the Theater....
This would provide an answer to the question...WHY DIDN'T FRITZ ASK LEE OSWALD ANYTHING ABOUT TIPPIT"S MURDER ?
Fritz thought that Lee Oswald had shot Tippit at the theater.....
Lee told Fritz that he had traveled to the theater BY BUS. Fritz saw no need to challenge that statement because he was unaware that Tippit had NOT been shot at the theater.... Fritz didn't care HOW Lee had traveled to the theater, he was only interested in establishing that Lee was at the theater. Of course he knew that the DPD police had dragged Lee from the theater so there was no real need to belabor that point.....He simply wanted the suspect to admit that he was at the theater.
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So, did this statement come from the minority of ignorants or from an expert?
I don’t claim to be an expert as related to the JFK assassination case. But, I have studied it for many years and have learned a great deal about the details. Everything is relative however, and compared to the vast majority of the population I might be considered somewhat of an expert by some of them. You would have to ask them. Most of the real experts, who have lived and breathed the JFK assassination for most of their adult lives would not consider me to be an expert. They would acknowledge that I know more than most folks though.
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Tell me Walt --- Why have you decided (on your own) to just invent a bus trip to the Texas Theater for Lee Oswald on 11/22?
No such bus trip occurred and you know it. And there's not a speck of evidence to support such a bus trip "to the theater" either.
So why do you now want to pretend such a bus trip occurred on Nov. 22nd?
I sincerely wish that some LNer like yourself would engage in a serious discussion on this topic......
The discovery that the early news reports reported that Tippit had been shot while attempting to apprehend Lee Harvey Oswald at the theater has been a golden nugget of information.
There is no doubt in my mind that Captain Fritz assumed that Tippit had been shot by Lee Oswald at the Texas Theater. The reporters were receiving their information at police headquarters and Fritz or one of his associates) had probably told the reporters that Oswald had shot Tippit at the theater.
If Fritz believed that Oswald had shot Tippit at the theater, as I believe, then many of the questions like the title of this thread are answered.
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The WC fanboys are routinely destroyed on this forum.
It appears that your view of the discussions on this forum is quite different from mine. I would say the opposite is true. Apparently, confirmation bias is rampant here.
I was simply pointing out how you cleverly implied the ill-informed should be found among those holding the majority opinion.
I never said or implied that. Ignorance isn’t confined to only the people on one side of the argument. However, if the majority believes in a conspiracy, then the chances are good that a majority of the ignorant folks believe in a conspiracy. My point is better spelled out in the following passage written by someone else (unknown) that caught my attention recently:
One of the most dangerous ideas that has come about in the last 3 years is that all points of view are equally valid, and that Average Citizen (YOU) are just as equipped to judge which have merit as anyone else.
“Hear all sides, and judge for yourself!” No, I do not condone the death of Expertise, and neither should you.
I am an expert in very, very few things. But in those areas, my expertise is hard earned through study, work, experience, and aptitude. None of it comes from attending Google University. But unless you are an expert in exactly the same areas, your opinion is not just as valid as mine. It’s not.
And my opinion is not as valid as experts in other fields. That is why THEY ARE THE EXPERTS. So if our leading epidemiologists largely agree that “A” is correct, our response should not be “I’ll listen to both and decide which makes sense to me.” Confirmation bias exists, and only fools think they are free of it. To paraphrase Asimov, your ignorance is not the same as their experience. Genuinely smart people look for answers from people who are smarter than themselves. Only ignorant people believe their guess is as good as anyone else’s
To put this in context with what we have been discussing, it means what I originally said: that statistics can be misleading. Just because a majority believes in conspiracy, doesn’t mean that the existence of a conspiracy is correct. In my opinion, it simply means that a majority doesn’t generally trust the authorities.
statistics can be misleading. Just because a majority believes in conspiracy, doesn’t mean that the existence of a conspiracy is correct. In my opinion, it simply means that a majority doesn’t generally trust the authorities.
Very interesting..... " Just because a majority believes in conspiracy, doesn’t mean that the existence of a conspiracy is correct."
Of course this statement correct . Example;... Just as once upon a time the vast majority of the citizens believed the authorities declaration that the earth was flat.. They were wrong.... Both the authorities who spewed he garbage and the citizens who believed them.
In my opinion, it simply means that a majority doesn’t generally trust the authorities
The authorities have repeatedly shown themselves to be unworthy of the citizens trust ...... The authorities have arrogantly placed themselves above the ignorant citizens and actually believe they are intellectually superior to the common "pissants".
I'm sure that in the days of the flat earth those who believed that the earth was flat sneered at those who questioned that belief.
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statistics can be misleading. Just because a majority believes in conspiracy, doesn’t mean that the existence of a conspiracy is correct. In my opinion, it simply means that a majority doesn’t generally trust the authorities.
Very interesting..... " Just because a majority believes in conspiracy, doesn’t mean that the existence of a conspiracy is correct."
Of course this statement correct . Example;... Just as once upon a time the vast majority of the citizens believed the authorities declaration that the earth was flat.. They were wrong.... Both the authorities who spewed he garbage and the citizens who believed them.
In my opinion, it simply means that a majority doesn’t generally trust the authorities
The authorities have repeatedly shown themselves to be unworthy of the citizens trust ...... The authorities have arrogantly placed themselves above the ignorant citizens and actually believe they are intellectually superior to the common "pissants".
I'm sure that in the days of the flat earth those who believed that the earth was flat sneered at those who questioned that belief.
The authorities have repeatedly shown themselves to be unworthy of the citizens trust ...... The authorities have arrogantly placed themselves above the ignorant citizens and actually believe they are intellectually superior to the common "pissants".
Thanks, that’s precisely the attitude that helps to reinforce my point!
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The authorities have repeatedly shown themselves to be unworthy of the citizens trust ...... The authorities have arrogantly placed themselves above the ignorant citizens and actually believe they are intellectually superior to the common "pissants".
Thanks, that’s precisely the attitude that helps to reinforce my point!
The point is:....That "attitude" was EARNED..... And you Mr Collins are one of those who considers himself to be intellectually superior.
Some sage once observed that those who believe themselves to be intellectually superior may actually be a bit inferior, but their egos won't allow them to admit it.
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The point is:....That "attitude" was EARNED..... And you Mr Collins are one of those who considers himself to be intellectually superior.
Some sage once observed that those who believe themselves to be intellectually superior may actually be a bit inferior, but their egos won't allow them to admit it.
If you want to discuss the JFK assassination case, please do. If you just want to try to attack the messenger because you don’t like the message, I am done with this conversation.
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If you want to discuss the JFK assassination case, please do. If you just want to try to attack the messenger because you don’t like the message, I am done with this conversation.
Mr Collins I've had some experience in discussing the evidence in murder of President Kennedy with you.....
You are intellectually dishonest..... and you will deny mathematically proven information.....when the math proves that you are wrong.
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Shows very well why these expert arguments go nowhere.
Let's assume 5 of your ignorant friends nominate you as expert.
Where does that leave us?
Okay both you and Walt apparently just want to attack the messenger. Enough of that. Bye
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Okay both you and Walt apparently just want to attack the messenger. Enough of that. Bye
I'm not attacking the messenger... How would that be possible?.... The "messenger" has not delivered a message.
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The point is:....That "attitude" was EARNED..... And you Mr Collins are one of those who considers himself to be intellectually superior.
Some sage once observed that those who believe themselves to be intellectually superior may actually be a bit inferior, but their egos won't allow them to admit it.
Says the guy who believes the red rings on the TSBD windows are a signal despite knowing they for fire safety purpose. It is amazing to see a loons like yourself and "Otto" lecture folks on the evidence.
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Says the guy who believes the red rings on the TSBD windows are a signal despite knowing they for fire safety purpose. It is amazing to see a loons like yourself and "Otto" lecture folks on the evidence.
despite knowing they for fire safety purpose.
I know nothing of the kind....In fact if you were smart enough to comprehend what I wrote you wouldn't make a fool of yourself with such a stupid statement.... I have NEVER acquiesced that the red rings on the TSBD windows were there for any safety reason....
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I sincerely wish that some LNer like yourself would engage in a serious discussion on this topic......
The discovery that the early news reports reported that Tippit had been shot while attempting to apprehend Lee Harvey Oswald at the theater has been a golden nugget of information.
But it became fairly obvious (early on) that this "golden nugget" was just one of several non-conspiratorial mistakes made by the news media on 11/22---similar in nature to other "golden nuggets" of erroneous info reported on radio and television that day. Such as: The "Secret Service agent has been shot and killed" nugget. And the "Lyndon Johnson had a heart attack and/or was also hit by an assassin's bullet" golden nugget(s). And then there's the "Oswald has confessed to killing the President and the police officer" nugget, which turned out to be nothing but erroneous (and hilarious) hot air that was being reported as absolute fact by at least two of Dallas' radio stations on November 22 (KBOX and KLIF).
All of those things were obviously wrong. But they made it to the media airwaves anyway. And those errors don't involve anything "conspiratorial". They were simply mistakes that were corrected later in the day.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/05/jfk-assassination-media-errors.html
There is no doubt in my mind that Captain Fritz assumed that Tippit had been shot by Lee Oswald at the Texas Theater. The reporters were receiving their information at police headquarters and Fritz or one of his associates had probably told the reporters that Oswald had shot Tippit at the theater.
If Fritz believed that Oswald had shot Tippit at the theater, as I believe, then many of the questions like the title of this thread are answered.
Regardless of how the media received the early erroneous report that J.D. Tippit had been shot at the theater, the evidence that Captain Fritz had available to him --- e.g., the multiple witnesses who positively identified Oswald as Tippit's killer, plus the bullet shell casings found on 10th Street that matched the gun that Oswald had on him when he was arrested --- would certainly be enough to demonstrate to Fritz that Oswald was, in fact, the murderer of Officer Tippit.
And as for that last item of evidence I just mentioned above---I've talked about this obvious (but often overlooked) fact so many times in the past, I decided to memorialize it in a digital image....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s550/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png)
http://quoting-common-sense.blogspot.com
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I don’t claim to be an expert as related to the JFK assassination case. But, I have studied it for many years and have learned a great deal about the details.
See Charles, that's the difference between you and Otto, Otto has only been studying this case for about two minutes and hasn't yet the developed the ability for intelligent deductive reasoning, therefore he's still at the stage where blindly repeating his last seen conspiracy Youtube video is the depth of his knowledge. Perhaps in time when Otto grows up and realizes that insults shouldn't be his default response and then and only then he may have an adult epiphany and consider the entirety of the evidence in context instead of his usual uninformed juvenile kneejerk response.
JohnM
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See Charles, that's the difference between you and Otto, Otto has only been studying this case for about two minutes and hasn't yet the developed the ability for intelligent deductive reasoning, therefore he's still at the stage where blindly repeating his last seen conspiracy Youtube video is the depth of his knowledge. Perhaps in time when Otto grows up and realizes that insults shouldn't be his default response and then and only then he may have an adult epiphany and consider the entirety of the evidence in context instead of his usual uninformed juvenile kneejerk response.
JohnM
The M.O. has become painfully obvious. Can’t debate the case on it’s merits, so resorts to insults. Then hilariously believes that: “ The WC fanboys are routinely destroyed on this forum.” :D
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But it became fairly obvious (early on) that this "golden nugget" was just one of several non-conspiratorial mistakes made by the news media on 11/22---similar in nature to other "golden nuggets" of erroneous info reported on radio and television that day. Such as: The "Secret Service agent has been shot and killed" nugget. And the "Lyndon Johnson had a heart attack and/or was also hit by an assassin's bullet" golden nugget(s). And then there's the "Oswald has confessed to killing the President and the police officer" nugget, which turned out to be nothing but erroneous (and hilarious) hot air that was being reported as absolute fact by at least two of Dallas' radio stations on November 22 (KBOX and KLIF).
All of those things were obviously wrong. But they made it to the media airwaves anyway. And those errors don't involve anything "conspiratorial". They were simply mistakes that were corrected later in the day.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/05/jfk-assassination-media-errors.html
Regardless of how the media received the early erroneous report that J.D. Tippit had been shot at the theater, the evidence that Captain Fritz had available to him --- e.g., the multiple witnesses who positively identified Oswald as Tippit's killer, plus the bullet shell casings found on 10th Street that matched the gun that Oswald had on him when he was arrested --- would certainly be enough to demonstrate to Fritz that Oswald was, in fact, the murderer of Officer Tippit.
And as for that last item of evidence I just mentioned above---I've talked about this obvious (but often overlooked) fact so many times in the past, I decided to memorialize it in a digital image....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s550/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png)
http://quoting-common-sense.blogspot.com
All of those things were obviously wrong. But they made it to the media airwaves anyway.
The point is:.....Fritz apparently thought that Tippit had been shot by Lee Oswald in the Theater.....
Regardless of how the media received the early erroneous report that J.D. Tippit had been shot at the theater, the evidence that Captain Fritz had available to him --- e.g., the multiple witnesses who positively identified Oswald as Tippit's killer, plus the bullet shell casings found on 10th Street that matched the gun that Oswald had on him when he was arrested --- would certainly be enough to demonstrate to Fritz that Oswald was, in fact, the murderer of Officer Tippit.
the multiple witnesses who positively identified Oswald as Tippit's killer, plus the bullet shell casings found on 10th Street that matched the gun that Oswald had on him when he was arrested --- would certainly be enough to demonstrate to Fritz that Oswald was, in fact, the murderer of Officer Tippit.
Whoa there, ya dumbass mule...... Yer attributing things to Fritz that he didn't know when he first started interrogating Lee.
When Fritz started questioning Lee ....He knew that he had been arrested at the theater....and JD. Tippit had been shot....That's the extent of his knowledge at 3:00 pm. He knew nothing about the spent shells found at 10th and Patton, He knew no0thing about Helen Markham or any other person who had been in the vicinity of Tippi's murder.
The fact that Fritz assumed that Tippit had been shot in the theater is heavily reflected in the initial questioning of Lee Oswald and is the question in the title of this thread. Was Lee Oswald questioned about the murder of JD Tippit?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s550/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png)
http://quoting-common-sense.blogspot.com
"somebody other than Oswald shoots Tippit with Oswald's revolver"
This utterly ridiculous statement is the product of a warped brain......The author bases his statement on his imagination.
He obviously believes that the 38 caliber S&W that Lee apparently possessed when he was arrested at the theater was the murder weapon. Any rational and reasoning person would study to learn the facts before forming an opinion.
Here are the facts
A) It was never established that the projectiles from Tippit's body had in fact been fired from Lee's S&W revolver
B) Although it appears that the spent shells that were presented were fired in Lee's S&W revolver......There is NO PROOF that they are the same shells that were found widely scattered around the Tippit murder scene. As a matter of fact it appears that the shells ARE NOT the shells from the Tippit scane.
C) All of the witnesses who saw the killer during the shooting or leaving the area said that he was using a revolver that required that one shell at a time be extracted..... A S&W revolver ejects all shells in the cylinder at once.....They are NOT extracted ONE AT A TIME. Thus it's obvious that the killer was not using a S&W revolver.
There are more facts but that should be enough for anybody with a functioning brain.......
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No weapon at all needed to convict as long as the jury believes Markham
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXMy1kFy/08-IPhone-OSWALD-TIPPIT-MARKHAM.png)
billchapman
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No weapon at all needed to convict as long as the jury believes Markham
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXMy1kFy/08-IPhone-OSWALD-TIPPIT-MARKHAM.png)
billchapman
No weapon at all needed to convict as long as the jury believes Markham
Markham's testimony has been posted many times and it is far less than conclusive.... But I guess vague is good enough for the LNer contingent.....
And it's very typical of a LNer to ignore and dismiss witnesses who basically said that the killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.
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Oh good. So we can rely on the answers given during the interrogation and forget about all those objections CTers have raised because it was not taped or transcribed.
So we can rely on the answers given during the interrogation and forget about all those objections CTers have raised because it was not taped or transcribed.
So now you want to deny what's recorded in your" bible ", is that right Mr "Smith" ? In the past you've always sworn the the Warren Report was the golden word of yer old Unca Sam.......
From the report of Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley on page 626 of WR. -------
"In response to questions put by Captain Fritz, Oswald said that immediately after having left the building where he worked, he went BY BUS to the theater where he was arrested; that when he got on the bus he secured a transfer and thereafter transferred to other busses to get to his destination " Which of course was the Theater.....
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Markham's testimony has been posted many times and it is far less than conclusive....
For the hell of it---
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM From their face, no.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. -----
Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.-------
Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I told them I wanted to be sure, and looked, at his face is what I was looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and I don't know, just--
Does it not seem that Joseph Ball had to practically get a crow-bar out to pry an answer out of Helen Markham?
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For the hell of it---
Does it not seem that Joseph Ball had to practically get a crow-bar out to pry an answer out of Helen Markham?
Jerry I've heard that Markham's twenty (?) year old son was in trouble with the law......and she was warned that he could be sent to prison if she didn't cooperate..... Is it true? I don't know..... But it might explain he fear of testifying before the Warren commission. You may recall how she was soiling her bloomers when Mark Lane reminded her that she had talked to him on the telephone.....She knew very well that the DPD had warned her to keep her mouth shut and not to talk to reporters....
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No weapon at all needed to convict as long as the jury believes Markham
Markham's testimony has been posted many times and it is far less than conclusive.... But I guess vague is good enough for the LNer contingent.....
And it's very typical of a LNer to ignore and dismiss witnesses who basically said that the killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.
Pretty clear
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXMy1kFy/08-IPhone-OSWALD-TIPPIT-MARKHAM.png)
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Jerry I've heard that Markham's twenty (?) year old son was in trouble with the law......and she was warned that he could be sent to prison if she didn't cooperate..... Is it true? I don't know..... But it might explain he fear of testifying before the Warren commission. You may recall how she was soiling her bloomers when Mark Lane reminded her that she had talked to him on the telephone.....She knew very well that the DPD had warned her to keep her mouth shut and not to talk to reporters....
That account probably came from this article called The Prodigal Son by a fellow named Harold Feldman. It was published in the Realist back in Sept 1964. Marguerite was all over Helen Markham and her dubious testimony and probably instigated the calls from Mark Lane. An excerpt---
Bill Markham, the 20-year-old son of Helen Markham, followed us outside. His mother and stepfather, be said, were too scared of the police and Secret Service to talk to us but he wasn’t. He would meet us outside the public library some three blocks away.
He spoke to us in Mrs. Oswald’s car, and unutterable contempt for his parents showed in every word. Also clear was his desperate need of money. Would we pay for information about the Tippit killing?
It only takes an hour of independent work on the Oswald case to make one circumspect and guarded. We might be charged later with bribing a witness, and then how did we know that the boy was not every bit of the liar he said his mother was. The sullen boy with the handsome tanned face topped with black curls admitted he had a police record, that the police had gotten him fired from several jobs by so-called parole check-ups. He was not working and what he wanted more than anything else right now was money.
“I need it, ma’am,” he said slowly, “and I’m going to get myself some.” Yes the Secret Service had told his parents that “there would be trouble” if they talked to outsiders. “But, I’m not afraid, ma’am. I need money and if I don’t get some one way, I’ll get it another.”
Two days later Marguerite called us to come over fast. She greeted us, holding up a newspaper in her hand. The Markham boy had been picked up for burglary and parole violation.
It recalled the similar arrest a few weeks before of Abraham Bolden, the first Negro Secret Service man assigned to the Presidential bodyguard, on charges of cooperating with counterfeiters. There, too, the charge was entirely based on the testimony of two witnesses who themselves were under police charges.
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For the hell of it---
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM From their face, no.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. -----
Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.-------
Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I told them I wanted to be sure, and looked, at his face is what I was looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and I don't know, just--
Does it not seem that Joseph Ball had to practically get a crow-bar out to pry an answer out of Helen Markham?
Markham is quite clear, she never before saw the man that killed Tippit and when she saw Oswald kill Tippit that was the first time she saw Oswald.
And the reason Markham wasn't sure is because Oswald while resisting arrest had new bruises and welts that weren't there before, so obviously she wasn't sure, if you take off your conspiracy goggles it really isn't that difficult.
(https://cdn.singulart.com/artworks/v2/cropped/14425/main/fhd/673123_9f36a245a66a5c4fb5ff99b3f5448c67.jpeg)
JohnM
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Markham is quite clear, she never before saw the man that killed Tippit and when she saw Oswald kill Tippit that was the first time she saw Oswald.
:D
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
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:D
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
You have a predilection for highlighting while at the same time omitting the essential part of my post. Oops!
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Try again!
JohnM
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This utterly ridiculous statement (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png) is the product of a warped brain. The author bases his statement on his imagination.
Quite the contrary, Mr. Cakebread. The "warped brain" is possessed by the conspiracy theorists who are constantly bending over backwards in order to pretend that virtually all of the evidence that hangs Mr. Oswald is tainted or fraudulent---without a bit of proof to show that any of it was actually faked. A CTer's suspicions about the evidence is more than enough "proof" for them.
In reality, of course, my 2013 statement (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png) concerning Oswald and the Tippit murder is a perfectly accurate quote given the sum total of the evidence as it exists in the Tippit case.
Regarding some of the physical evidence in the Tippit case....
There's absolutely nothing "tainted" or "suspicious" when it comes to the two bullet shells found by Barbara and Virginia Davis in their side yard on 11/22/63. There's a clear and distinct chain of possession for each of those shell casings—going from each Davis girl straight into the hands of two different Dallas Police Department officers.
Oh, yes, I expect Walter Cakebread to storm back into this discussion very shortly and argue that he knows for a fact that the DPD markings that exist on the two bullet shells found by the Davis girls—those being the markings put there by Detective C.N. Dhority and Crime Lab Captain George M. Doughty (one bullet shell each)—are in some fashion fraudulent, manufactured, or fake, and therefore should be discarded as "real" evidence in the J.D. Tippit murder investigation. But a conspiracy theorist's suspicions about those two shells do not add up to anything even remotely resembling "proof" that the shells are not legitimate evidence.
And I suppose that Walt will also argue that the following two excerpts from the FBI report found on pages 414 and 415 of Warren Commission Volume 24 are nothing but lies as well:
"On June 12, 1964, four .38 Special cartridge cases...were shown to Captain G.M. Doughty of the Dallas Police Department. .... Captain Doughty identified his marking on one of these cases. .... Captain Doughty stated this is the same shell which he obtained from Barbara Jeanette Davis at Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963." -- CE2011; Page 7 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0216b.htm)
"On June 12, 1964, the same four cartridge cases...were shown by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum to Detective C.N. Dhority, Homicide Division Dallas Police Department. .... Detective Dhority identified his marking on one of these cartridge cases. .... He stated this is the same cartridge case which he obtained from Virginia Davis, Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963." -- CE2011; Page 8 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0217a.htm)
(Also see Pages 266-269 of Dale Myers' book "With Malice"; 1998 Edition.)
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You have a predilection for highlighting while at the same time omitting the essential part of my post. Oops!
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Try again!
JohnM
:D
Unless your claim is that the Tippit shooting happened AFTER the lineup, Mr Mytton, you're going to have to get over the fact that Ms Markham says over and over again that she had never seen any of the men before-------------meaning (obviously!) prior to the lineup. She did NOT recognize Mr Oswald as the man who had shot Officer Tippit.
Of course, if Mr Ball were in an earlier phase of questioning and were asking her 'Now the man you saw shoot the officer, had you ever seen him before? Did you recognize him as someone you had seen anytime in the past?', then your argument would be non-laughable. Unfortunately, that's not what Mr Ball is asking here, so your argument is.......... how do I put this kindly?........ the precise opposite of non-laughable.
Why do you embarrass yourself like this, Mr Mytton?
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Quite the contrary, Mr. Cakebread. The "warped brain" is possessed by the conspiracy theorists who are constantly bending over backwards in order to pretend that virtually all of the evidence that hangs Mr. Oswald is tainted or fraudulent---without a bit of proof to show that any of it was actually faked. A CTer's suspicions about the evidence is more than enough "proof" for them.
In reality, of course, my 2013 statement (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xpEpHmcfwCU/YPnmE4x3zEI/AAAAAAABZCI/_-fE_QfbBhkGj9qEwO7wFfYvQsVKgSQ8gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2000/DVP-Quote-Regarding-Tippit-Murder.png) concerning Oswald and the Tippit murder is a perfectly accurate quote given the sum total of the evidence as it exists in the Tippit case.
why would he use a phony name then ?
Regarding some of the physical evidence in the Tippit case....
There's absolutely nothing "tainted" or "suspicious" when it comes to the two bullet shells found by Barbara and Virginia Davis in their side yard on 11/22/63. There's a clear and distinct chain of possession for each of those shell casings—going from each Davis girl straight into the hands of two different Dallas Police Department officers.
Oh, yes, I expect Walter Cakebread to storm back into this discussion very shortly and argue that he knows for a fact that the DPD markings that exist on the two bullet shells found by the Davis girls—those being the markings put there by Detective C.N. Dhority and Crime Lab Captain George M. Doughty (one bullet shell each)—are in some fashion fraudulent, manufactured, or fake, and therefore should be discarded as "real" evidence in the J.D. Tippit murder investigation. But a conspiracy theorist's suspicions about those two shells do not add up to anything even remotely resembling "proof" that the shells are not legitimate evidence.
And I suppose that Walt will also argue that the following two excerpts from the FBI report found on pages 414 and 415 of Warren Commission Volume 24 are nothing but lies as well:
"On June 12, 1964, four .38 Special cartridge cases...were shown to Captain G.M. Doughty of the Dallas Police Department. .... Captain Doughty identified his marking on one of these cases. .... Captain Doughty stated this is the same shell which he obtained from Barbara Jeanette Davis at Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963." -- CE2011; Page 7 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0216b.htm)
"On June 12, 1964, the same four cartridge cases...were shown by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum to Detective C.N. Dhority, Homicide Division Dallas Police Department. .... Detective Dhority identified his marking on one of these cartridge cases. .... He stated this is the same cartridge case which he obtained from Virginia Davis, Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963." -- CE2011; Page 8 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0217a.htm)
(Also see Pages 266-269 of Dale Myers' book "With Malice"; 1998 Edition.)
The "warped brain" is possessed by the conspiracy theorists who are constantly bending over backwards in order to pretend that virtually all of the evidence that hangs Mr. Oswald is tainted or fraudulent-
We agree on that point.....One of my pet peeves are those who believe that all of the evidence is tainted or fraudulent.
They deny every bit of evidence from the BY photo to the Walker hoax..... and many other things that if they would use their heads they would know that the evidence is real....
The denial that Lee had his photo taken while holding a carcano is one of the things that irritate me. There is no doubt that CE 133A is a real photo .....BUT Not All four of the photos are real..... Lee told Fritz that the photo that Fritz showed him was a fake.... And he knew what he was talking about.....Because Fritz had to have shown him the photo that we know as 133c . and 133c is a damned fake, just as Lee proclaimed. We can know that the photo Fritz had in his possession was 133c because CE 133A &B were still in Lee's sea bag in the Paines garage at the time that Fritz displayed the photo to Lee. CE 133A &B had not yet been found at the time Fritz displayed a BY photo to Lee.
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:D
Unless your claim is that the Tippit shooting happened AFTER the lineup, Mr Mytton, you're going to have to get over the fact that Ms Markham says over and over again that she had never seen any of the men before-------------meaning (obviously!) prior to the lineup. She did NOT recognize Mr Oswald as the man who had shot Officer Tippit.
Of course, if Mr Ball were in an earlier phase of questioning and were asking her 'Now the man you saw shoot the officer, had you ever seen him before? Did you recognize him as someone you had seen anytime in the past?', then your argument would be non-laughable. Unfortunately, that's not what Mr Ball is asking here, so your argument is.......... how do I put this kindly?........ the precise opposite of non-laughable.
Why do you embarrass yourself like this, Mr Mytton?
Markham was quite specific that she picked the number 2 man as the man that murdered Tippit and that number 2 man was Oswald. Double Oops!
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. -----
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKg4FNjs/line-up-oswald.jpg)
JohnM
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Markham was quite specific that she picked the number 2 man as the man that murdered Tippit and that number 2 man was Oswald. Double Oops!
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. -----
JohnM
Nice deflection from your catastrophically unsuccessful attempt at semantic escapology, Mr Mytton! (Not since your glorious 'When Oswald said P. Parade he obviously meant the part of the parade after JFK was shot' have I laughed so much, so thank you for that)
As for the reliability of Ms Markham's gothic "I got the chills when I looked in his eyes" story of her eventual under-pressure 'IDing' of Mr Oswald, whose face she has just several times stated she did NOT recognize------------------------if you swallow that then you'll swallow anything. Which, being a Warren Gullible, is of course your forte! Thumb1:
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There is no doubt that CE 133A is a real photo. BUT Not All four of the photos are real.
What possible reason would anybody have had for wanting to create FAKE photos when at least one REAL photo showing the exact same thing already existed?
That makes no logical sense at all.
Please elaborate, Walt, on why you think a band of plotters/photo-fakers would want to do such a silly thing?
Why wasn't the ONE REAL PHOTO enough for them?
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There's absolutely nothing "tainted" or "suspicious" when it comes to the two bullet shells found by Barbara and Virginia Davis in their side yard on 11/22/63. There's a clear and distinct chain of possession for each of those shell casings
So said the Dallas police.
I do think that statement on your DVP page was moderately funny though it was of course considerably over the top.
Regarding the Markham testimony.. it is too bad that [Gaslighter in Chief] John Mytton was not there to interpret her statements for Joseph Ball who was obviously confused :)
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I do think that statement on your DVP page was moderately funny though it was of course considerably over the top.
But it's also 100% accurate (based on the Tippit evidence).
Regarding the Markham testimony, it is too bad that...John Mytton was not there to interpret her statements for Joseph Ball who was obviously confused :)
I agree with John M. regarding Markham.
I think it's quite obvious what Markham meant when she said she had never seen any of the men in the lineup BEFORE.
By "before", she thought Ball meant PRIOR TO NOV. 22, had you ever seen any of those men?
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Nice deflection....
Your self serving reasoning has come to a logical dead end, Markham's own words completely trumps your understanding of how Markham interpreted the initial question because if she never saw any of the men before the line-up then she wouldn't be able to say that one of those men in the line up was the man she saw murder Tippit and that man was Lee Harvey Oswald. Triple Oops!
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. -----
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKg4FNjs/line-up-oswald.jpg)
JohnM
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So said the Dallas police.
I do think that statement on your DVP page was moderately funny though it was of course considerably over the top.
Regarding the Markham testimony.. it is too bad that [Gaslighter in Chief] John Mytton was not there to interpret her statements for Joseph Ball who was obviously confused :)
Ball wasn't specific enough when he worded his original question and didn't have the ability to alter his follow up questions so they could have been easily interpreted by Markham who after all was only a waitress, and this jumping all over Markham when we have the time to read and reread the questions are a sad indictment of the scummy level the CT's have to lower themselves to prove that St Oswald was "innocent".
And if we only have Markham to rely upon then Oswald would still be guilty but she was only a drop in the ocean because we have a stack more eyewitnesses who identified Oswald carrying a gun either at the scene or was seen hightailing it out of there.
The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it
Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.
Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?
Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.
PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.
HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.
Jack Tatum
Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.
The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.
Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.
Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.
Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.
Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
JohnM
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(Not since your glorious 'When Oswald said P. Parade he obviously meant the part of the parade after JFK was shot' have I laughed so much, so thank you for that)
Wow unbelievable! Are you still trying to convince the CT community, who let's face it are some of the most easily manipulated morons "scholars" on the planet, that Oswald was outside when in fact he agreed that he was inside, how are you going with that? Or are you going to keep saying that outside the front doors was still inside?
@1:03
Btw it's too bad that Oswald himself apparently told Hosty "Then went outside to watch P. Parade." Hehehe!
JohnM
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The M.O. has become painfully obvious. Can’t debate the case on it’s merits, so resorts to insults. Then hilariously believes that: “ The WC fanboys are routinely destroyed on this forum.” :D
Thanks, I missed Otto's post, what a Narcissist with delusions of grandeur, Otto makes the most absurd posts which are usually based on the most insignificant discrepancy. But Otto will irrationally ignore the bigger picture and it's associated overwhelming evidence and even in the light of this solid wall of facts, will only buckle down on his very special discovery that he thinks will somehow break open this case, but where his ground breaking evidence leads, is never revealed?
JohnM
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You can beat Walt to it and tell us what mark Dhority put on the shell.
Don't know. The markings on the shell are not clear enough to discern when looking at the series of three pictures of the shell which were photographed by Dale Myers and published on page 268 of "With Malice" (1998 Edition).
But the markings were discernible to Dhority himself in June of '64 when he positively IDed the shell as the one he marked on 11/22/63....
"Detective Dhority identified his marking on one of these cartridge cases. .... He stated this is the same cartridge case which he obtained from Virginia Davis...on November 22, 1963." -- CD1258, p.8 and CE2011, p.8
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=9
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Don't know. The markings on the shell are not clear enough to discern when looking at the series of three pictures of the shell which were photographed by Dale Myers and published on page 268 of "With Malice" (1998 Edition).
But the markings were discernible to Dhority himself in June of '64 when he positively IDed the shell as the one he marked on 11/22/63....
"Detective Dhority identified his marking on one of these cartridge cases. .... He stated this is the same cartridge case which he obtained from Virginia Davis...on November 22, 1963." -- CD1258, p.8 and CE2011, p.8
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=9
This is another CT rabbit hole, Dhority identified his marking and that should be that.
And since the Police were in control of the evidence if Dhority wanted to add his initials after the fact he could do as easy as pie, so logically he must have seen his initials. But on the other hand if the initials were easily discernible (and I haven't examined the actual original evidence and I know most of the critics haven't either, so we all can't say definitively), then the next CT suspicion would be based on my previous statement that Dhority was a policeman and faked the evidence and then we begin the descent deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole.
The closed minded CT's have already made up their minds and will never be satisfied and Otto who's only been at this for the last 30 second has no idea beyond his limited world view which seems to never escape his vivid imagination.
JohnM
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Your self serving reasoning has come to a logical dead end, Markham's own words completely trumps your understanding of how Markham interpreted the initial question because if she never saw any of the men before the line-up then she wouldn't be able to say that one of those men in the line up was the man she saw murder Tippit and that man was Lee Harvey Oswald. Triple Oops!
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. -----
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKg4FNjs/line-up-oswald.jpg)
JohnM
As you have helpfully reminded us, Mr Mytton, Ms Markham didn't recognize any of the four lineup men, and made this clear to those running the lineup. They wouldn't let up, so she went ahead and picked the man who was obviously their suspect (the bruises helped).
This constitutes a safe identification in Warren Gullible World! Thumb1:
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Ball wasn't specific enough when he worded his original question and didn't have the ability to alter his follow up questions so they could have been easily interpreted by Markham who after all was only a waitress,
:D
and this jumping all over Markham when we have the time to read and reread the questions are a sad indictment of the scummy level the CT's have to lower themselves to prove that St Oswald was "innocent".
~Grin~ Whereas the refusal of DPD to accept her repeated word that she had never seen any of these men before was decency and honesty personified!
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Wow unbelievable! Are you still trying to convince the CT community, who let's face it are some of the most easily manipulated morons "scholars" on the planet, that Oswald was outside when in fact he agreed that he was inside, how are you going with that? Or are you going to keep saying that outside the front doors was still inside?
Neither of the above. And you know of course this, because you have reverted to your old trick of putting the word "inside" in Mr Oswald's mouth. He never said it! Thumb1:
Btw it's too bad that Oswald himself apparently told Hosty "Then went outside to watch P. Parade."
Ain't it just--------------your heart must have sunk to your gut when you first read that in 2019! Thumb1:
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...nobody else has since "discerned" those markings.
The reason for that could be because Dhority might not have marked the bullet shell with his INITIALS. He might have used some other distinct marking which Dhority could easily identify if he ever had to I.D. the shell again.
But regardless of the type of mark Dhority used, he did identify HIS DISTINCT MARK on the shell in June of 1964. Spit on his identification if you like, but Dhority identified his marking on the shell casing nonetheless. And the CTers who like to complain about it aren't going to change that basic fact.
Barnes, on April 7, 1964, identified the same shell, so how is your "clear and distinct chain of possession" going from the Davis girl supposed to work?
Doesn't make any difference what Barnes did. The only part of the "chain" that really matters is the FIRST LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER who took control of the bullet shell. And that person was C.N. Dhority, who got it from the civilian witness (Virginia Davis) who found it in her side yard. It went straight from Davis to Dhority. And then Dhority marked it. It therefore makes no difference WHO ELSE might have handled the bullet shell AFTER Dhority, because Dhority will now ALWAYS be able to say "That's the exact shell I got from Virginia Davis", because he can see his mark on the shell.
The very same "chain of custody" argument can be made when discussing Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle. Carl Day was the first law enforcement official to handle the rifle, and he etched his name into the stock of the weapon. So it doesn't make a bit of difference who else handled the weapon after Lt. Day handled it. It's always going to have the name "Day" scratched into the wooden stock, thereby confirming forever and always the fact that it was that exact rifle that was picked up off the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building by Lieutenant J.C. Day of the DPD on 11/22/63.
The same thing should have happened with Bullet CE399, but unfortunately it did not. The first person connected officially with "law enforcement" to handle that bullet at Parkland Hospital was Secret Service Agent Richard Johnsen, and he should have marked the physical bullet itself before it ever left his sight on 11/22/63. But he didn't. He utilized a typewritten note instead, which he then stapled to an envelope which contained the actual bullet. And since Johnsen didn't etch his marking into the physical bullet itself, it opened the door for the conspiracy theorists to do just exactly what they have done for the last 50+ years---they get to claim that the weak chain of custody for CE399 must certainly indicate that somebody in officialdom did something of an underhanded nature with the bullet that was found on a stretcher at Parkland. Many CTers would still no doubt be crying foul about CE399 even if Richard Johnsen had marked the bullet, but the lack of an "RJ" on that piece of metal has made the screams of "It Was Planted" by the conspiracists an easier argument to make (although it's still far from being a proven claim of fakery).
It would probably be better for conspiracists if they would start theorizing that civilian witnesses Virginia Davis and Barbara Davis "switched" the bullet shells to frame Oswald before police officers Doughty or Dhority came to the Davis apartment to collect shells #3 and #4. Because the CTers don't have a leg (or a shell) to stand on by continuing to pretend there's something fishy about the "chain of possession" when it comes to the marking of those two shells by members of the Dallas Police Department.
You never can tell---perhaps the two young Davis gals had a couple of spare cartridge casings from Smith & Wesson Revolver #V510210 under their beds on Nov. 22nd.
After all, I learned many years ago that in a JFK conspiracy theorist's world, virtually anything truly is possible.
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:D
~Grin~ Whereas the refusal of DPD to accept her repeated word that she had never seen any of these men before was decency and honesty personified!
It appears that refusal to accept a witnesses statement was SOP for the DPD .... They coerced and badgered Howard Brennan when he told them that the 175 pound man who was dressed in a khaki uniform that he'd seen STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a TSBD window was NOT present in the line up in which they had placed Lee Oswald among three other men that looked nothing like the man that Brennan had said that he was sure that he would be able to identify if he ever saw him again.
And BWF...They badgered, intimidated, and threatened, the young Frazier until he would have said anything they wanted him to say....
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The reason for that could be because Dhority might not have marked the bullet shell with his INITIALS. He might have used some other distinct marking which Dhority could easily identify if he ever had to I.D. the shell again.
But regardless of the type of mark Dhority used, he did identify HIS DISTINCT MARK on the shell in June of 1964. Spit on his identification if you like, but Dhority identified his marking on the shell casing nonetheless. And the CTers who like to complain about it aren't going to change that basic fact.
Doesn't make any difference what Barnes did. The only part of the "chain" that really matters is the FIRST LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER who took control of the bullet shell. And that person was C.N. Dhority, who got it from the civilian witness (Virginia Davis) who found it in her side yard. It went straight from Davis to Dhority. And then Dhority marked it. It therefore makes no difference WHO ELSE might have handled the bullet shell AFTER Dhority, because Dhority will now ALWAYS be able to say "That's the exact shell I got from Virginia Davis", because he can see his mark on the shell.
The very same "chain of custody" argument can be made when discussing Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle. Carl Day was the first law enforcement official to handle the rifle, and he etched his name into the stock of the weapon. So it doesn't make a bit of difference who else handled the weapon after Lt. Day handled it. It's always going to have the name "Day" scratched into the wooden stock, thereby confirming forever and always the fact that it was that exact rifle that was picked up off the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building by Lieutenant J.C. Day of the DPD on 11/22/63.
The same thing should have happened with Bullet CE399, but unfortunately it did not. The first person connected officially with "law enforcement" to handle that bullet at Parkland Hospital was Secret Service Agent Richard Johnsen, and he should have marked the physical bullet itself before it ever left his sight on 11/22/63. But he didn't. He utilized a typewritten note instead, which he then stapled to an envelope which contained the actual bullet. And since Johnsen didn't etch his marking into the physical bullet itself, it opened the door for the conspiracy theorists to do just exactly what they have done for the last 50+ years---they get to claim that the weak chain of custody for CE399 must certainly indicate that somebody in officialdom did something of an underhanded nature with the bullet that was found on a stretcher at Parkland. Many CTers would still no doubt be crying foul about CE399 even if Richard Johnsen had marked the bullet, but the lack of an "RJ" on that piece of metal has made the screams of "It Was Planted" by the conspiracists an easier argument to make (although it's still far from being a proven claim of fakery).
It would probably be better for conspiracists if they would start theorizing that civilian witnesses Virginia Davis and Barbara Davis "switched" the bullet shells to frame Oswald before police officers Doughty or Dhority came to the Davis apartment to collect shells #3 and #4. Because the CTers don't have a leg (or a shell) to stand on by continuing to pretend there's something fishy about the "chain of possession" when it comes to the marking of those two shells by members of the Dallas Police Department.
You never can tell---perhaps the two young Davis gals had a couple of spare cartridge casings from Smith & Wesson Revolver #V510210 under their beds on Nov. 22nd.
After all, I learned many years ago that in a JFK conspiracy theorist's world, virtually anything truly is possible.
Hoorah! Von Pea Brain has unwitting admitted the truth.....
" rifle that was picked up off the sixth floor" He's absolutely right the rifle was NOT jammed between boxes of books.....Detective day picked it OFF THE FLOOR .......
(https://i.postimg.cc/nVdchm5q/Alyea-clip3.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Watch closely as detective Day reaches out to pick up the carcano for the first time. Nobody had touched that rifle prior to this moment. How is the rifle positioned?....Is it Jammed between boxes of books or is it lying on the floor ? Does Day have any trouble grabbing the leather sling? That leather sling was mounted on the left side of the rifle so it would have been hard for Day to reach if the rifle had been jammed between boxes of books.
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'Is it Jammed between boxes of books or is it lying on the floor?'
> Both
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
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'Is it Jammed between boxes of books or is it lying on the floor?'
> Both
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nVdchm5q/Alyea-clip3.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Ha,ha, ha, Hee.hee, hee..... ROTFLMAO!..... :D Thanks for posting the fake in situ photo that the DPD created ...
BTW.....Can you see the leather sling in the official DPD in situ photo?
You've very "cleverly" provided an opportunity for viewers to compare the fake in situ photo with the genuine scene....
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It appears that refusal to accept a witnesses statement was SOP for the DPD .... They coerced and badgered Howard Brennan when he told them that the 175 pound man who was dressed in a khaki uniform that he'd seen STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a TSBD window was NOT present in the line up in which they had placed Lee Oswald among three other men that looked nothing like the man that Brennan had said that he was sure that he would be able to identify if he ever saw him again.
And BWF...They badgered, intimidated, and threatened, the young Frazier until he would have said anything they wanted him to say....
Any intimidation was driven (pun intended) by the fact that Buell hauled the perp to the killing field
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(https://i.postimg.cc/nVdchm5q/Alyea-clip3.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Ha,ha, ha, Hee.hee, hee..... ROTFLMAO!..... :D Thanks for posting the fake in situ photo that the DPD created ...
BTW.....Can you see the leather sling in the official DPD in situ photo?
You've very "cleverly" provided an opportunity for viewers to compare the fake in situ photo with the genuine scene....
I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes! Hey, I'm here to teach ;)
The overhead angle provided by the photographer reveals the strap would be concealed by the rifle itself
Now kindly present images of your 'genuine scene'
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes! Hey, I'm here to teach ;)
The overhead angle provided by the photographer reveals the strap would be concealed by the rifle itself
Now kindly present images of your 'genuine scene'
The overhead angle provided by the photographer reveals the strap would be concealed by the rifle itself
Yes the overhead angle reveals that the sling isn't visible...But in Tom Alyea's genuine scene film of Day picking up the rifle FROM TRHE FLOOR even a person like you with his head inserted can see that Day simply reaches out and grabs the leather sling and picks up the rifle. Please continue to argue and make a bigger fool of yourself.
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Markham was quite specific..
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked.
Was that really a solid identification or just a hurry up and choose somebody and get the hell out of there?
Even at that...by the time of this testimony---Oswald was months dead...what did it matter?
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Was that really a solid identification or just a hurry up and choose somebody and get the hell out of there?
Even at that...by the time of this testimony---Oswald was months dead...what did it matter?
Not just Markham, all sorts of people positively identified Oswald holding a gun either at the scene or moving away.
Btw if it doesn't matter why are you making so many posts on the subject?
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/emoticon-pointing-down-happy-emoji-his-finger-168543540.jpg)
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.
RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKg4FNjs/line-up-osw-ald.jpg)
JohnM
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Btw if it doesn't matter why are you making so many posts on the subject?
So? Why are you? Are you telling me to stop posting here?
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
That is a positive identification?
Try a larger emoji maybe that will work.
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So? Why are you? Are you telling me to stop posting here?
That is a positive identification?
Try a larger emoji maybe that will work.
So? Why are you?
You were the one who posted "what did it matter", not me.
Are you telling me to stop posting here?
I don't care what you do but at least be a man of your own convictions.
That is a positive identification?
Benavides testified under oath that he figured the man was Oswald, what more do you want and I noticed you ignored the mountain of other eyewitnesses, but you never were one to consider evidence that upsets your unique worldview.
Try a larger emoji maybe that will work.
Well considering you never acknowledged the majority of the eyewitnesses of what I posted, then if it takes an even bigger emoji, I certainly will! Thumb1:
JohnM
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Not just Markham, all sorts of people positively identified Oswald holding a gun either at the scene or moving away.
Btw if it doesn't matter why are you making so many posts on the subject?
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/emoticon-pointing-down-happy-emoji-his-finger-168543540.jpg)
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.
RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKg4FNjs/line-up-osw-ald.jpg)
JohnM
We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Benevides watched as the killer removed a shell from the revolver and tossed the shell aside ( THAT'S ONE SHELL REMOVED FROM THE REVOLVER ) Then he watched the killer take a few steps and remove another spent shell..( THAT TWO SHELLS REMOVED) Then .....We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Clearly the killer was NOT removing spent shells from a S&W revolver..... He was using some other brand of revolver and the revolver that allegedly was in Lee's possession was a SMITH & WESSON. And the spent shells are removed all at the same time from a S&W. Which raises a question in my mind..... Any competent cop could determine at a glance if that old S&W had been fired that day. The revolver that was allegedly in Lee's possession was not designed to fire the .38 special cartridge.
The .38 special cartridge is smaller diameter and longer and more powerful that the old 38 cartridge that the revolver was designed for.
The Point is:....That old revolver would have leaked the burning gasses and it would have been covered with a bluish gray substance ( The burned gun powder residue ) I know this from experience---- and If I had been at the theater when the cop carried the S&W revolver out of the theater I would have known at a glance if that revolver had been fired that day.
Are there any good photos of the gun being carried out of the theater?.....
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The overhead angle provided by the photographer reveals the strap would be concealed by the rifle itself
Yes the overhead angle reveals that the sling isn't visible...But in Tom Alyea's genuine scene film of Day picking up the rifle FROM TRHE FLOOR even a person like you with his head inserted can see that Day simply reaches out and grabs the leather sling and picks up the rifle. Please continue to argue and make a bigger fool of yourself.
Your blurry film clip reveals that Day was bending down long enough to both move the box out of the way and pick up the rifle.
The WC overhead photo reveals that using the word 'jammed' to describe the placement of the rifle against the box is yet another sample of the desperate exaggeration you lot employ in your madcap attempts to cast doubt on LNer claims.
And you are the fool:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsZJXk6C/waldo-confused.png)
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Your blurry film clip reveals that Day was bending down long enough to both move the box out of the way and pick up the rifle.
The WC overhead photo reveals that using the word 'jammed' to describe the placement of the rifle against the box is yet another sample of the desperate exaggeration you lot employ in your madcap attempts to cast doubt on LNer claims.
And you are the fool:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsZJXk6C/waldo-confused.png)
You are a damned simple minded fool Lil Chappie..... It's not "MY" Film Clip... it is from Tom Alyea's film of the activities that took place on the sixth floor that afternoon.... Unfortunately most of his film was destroyed ( deliberately to destroy the evidence)
If you didn't have your head inserted you may able to see that the photo of the rifle jammed between the boxes is a fake....
But asking you to open your eyes and SEE is akin to trying to get a jackass to drink. You can lead the jackass to water but you can't make him drink.
Now... returning to the topic of the thread....."Was Lee Oswald questioned about the murder of JD Tippit?"
And the answer is:..... No, he was not questioned about the Tippit murder during the Friday interrogation session. And here's why Fritz never asked him about the Tippit murder.....
"The first news flashes out of Dallas on the Tippit shooting said that he had been shot to death when he and another policeman pursued a suspect in the assassination into the Texas Theater following a tip. The suspect -Lee Harvey Oswald- had shot Tippit. He was subdued and arrested by other policemen.
By the next day , newspapers reported that Tippit had actually been shot and killed some blocks away from the theater and that Oswald had been arrested for Tippitt's murder, not for the assassination of the President."
So Fritz assumed that Lee had shot Tippit at the Texas Theater,,,,So there was no need to ask Lee any questions about that.
Lee had told Fritz that he had rode in a bus to the theater and that confirmed that Lee was in fact at the theater when Fritz assumed that Tippit was shot.
So we have Lee telling Fritz that he had rode in a bus to the theater, and we have Fritz assuming that Lee had shot Tippit at the theater. Case closed...no need to ask questions about that....And that's why Fritz did not ask Lee about the Tippit murder.
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We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Benevides watched as the killer removed a shell from the revolver and tossed the shell aside ( THAT'S ONE SHELL REMOVED FROM THE REVOLVER ) Then he watched the killer take a few steps and remove another spent shell..( THAT TWO SHELLS REMOVED) Then .....We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Clearly the killer was NOT removing spent shells from a S&W revolver..... He was using some other brand of revolver and the revolver that allegedly was in Lee's possession was a SMITH & WESSON. And the spent shells are removed all at the same time from a S&W. Which raises a question in my mind..... Any competent cop could determine at a glance if that old S&W had been fired that day. The revolver that was allegedly in Lee's possession was not designed to fire the .38 special cartridge.
The .38 special cartridge is smaller diameter and longer and more powerful that the old 38 cartridge that the revolver was designed for.
The Point is:....That old revolver would have leaked the burning gasses and it would have been covered with a bluish gray substance ( The burned gun powder residue ) I know this from experience---- and If I had been at the theater when the cop carried the S&W revolver out of the theater I would have known at a glance if that revolver had been fired that day.
Are there any good photos of the gun being carried out of the theater?.....
Since I'm sure the old S&W revolver that was carried from the theater would have been covered with burned gun powder residue.... If Lee had handled that revolver and it had been covered with the residue his hands would have been coated with the residue.... Now, since Lee's hands were NOT coated with a liberal coating of gunpowder residue we can deduce at least two things..... He had not fired that old S&W ..... and the old S&W hadn't been fired that day....
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes! Hey, I'm here to teach ;)
The overhead angle provided by the photographer reveals the strap would be concealed by the rifle itself
Now kindly present images of your 'genuine scene'
I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
HMMMM...Excuse me little Chappie perhaps you have a vision problem like Cranialrectalitus and you can't see that in the fake official DPD photo the butt plate of rifle is VERTICAL...... Whereas Tom Alyea's film clip shows that the butt plate is HORIZONTAL when Day picks up the rifle.
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
HMMMM...Excuse me little Chappie perhaps you have a vision problem like Cranialrectalitus and you can't see that in the fake official DPD photo the butt plate of rifle is VERTICAL...... Whereas Tom Alyea's film clip shows that the butt plate is HORIZONTAL when Day picks up the rifle.
This fake DPD photo apparently was taken at a time when that weren't sure that they make a case against Lee oswald and the Carcano....
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
The stock on the rifle in this photo appears to be a mauser stock.....It does not look like a mannlicher carcano stock....
The fake photo may have been staged at a time when the carcano wasn't available (in FBI lab i Wash. DC) so they used a mauser to create the fake.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
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You are a damned simple minded fool Lil Chappie..... It's not "MY" Film Clip... it is from Tom Alyea's film of the activities that took place on the sixth floor that afternoon.... Unfortunately most of his film was destroyed ( deliberately to destroy the evidence)
If you didn't have your head inserted you may able to see that the photo of the rifle jammed between the boxes is a fake....
But asking you to open your eyes and SEE is akin to trying to get a jackass to drink. You can lead the jackass to water but you can't make him drink.
Now... returning to the topic of the thread....."Was Lee Oswald questioned about the murder of JD Tippit?"
And the answer is:..... No, he was not questioned about the Tippit murder during the Friday interrogation session. And here's why Fritz never asked him about the Tippit murder.....
"The first news flashes out of Dallas on the Tippit shooting said that he had been shot to death when he and another policeman pursued a suspect in the assassination into the Texas Theater following a tip. The suspect -Lee Harvey Oswald- had shot Tippit. He was subdued and arrested by other policemen.
By the next day , newspapers reported that Tippit had actually been shot and killed some blocks away from the theater and that Oswald had been arrested for Tippitt's murder, not for the assassination of the President."
So Fritz assumed that Lee had shot Tippit at the Texas Theater,,,,So there was no need to ask Lee any questions about that.
Lee had told Fritz that he had rode in a bus to the theater and that confirmed that Lee was in fact at the theater when Fritz assumed that Tippit was shot.
So we have Lee telling Fritz that he had rode in a bus to the theater, and we have Fritz assuming that Lee had shot Tippit at the theater. Case closed...no need to ask questions about that....And that's why Fritz did not ask Lee about the Tippit murder.
You are a damned simple minded fool Lil Chappie..... It's not "MY" Film Clip... it is from Tom Alyea's film of the activities that took place on the sixth floor that afternoon
Well, DUH
Unfortunately most of his film was destroyed ( deliberately to destroy the evidence)
Prove it
If you didn't have your head inserted
Please stop including me in your sick fantasies
you may able to see that the photo of the rifle jammed between the boxes is a fake.
::)
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGL7LGz/carcano-boxes-floor.png)
HMMMM...Excuse me little Chappie perhaps you have a vision problem like Cranialrectalitus and you can't see that in the fake official DPD photo the butt plate of rifle is VERTICAL...... Whereas Tom Alyea's film clip shows that the butt plate is HORIZONTAL when Day picks up the rifle.
So what?
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So what?
I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
So you're now saying that not only can an object can appear in two places at the same time ( snicker ::) ) but the object can appear to be shifted from vertical to horizontal ??
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
So you're now saying that not only can an object can appear in two places at the same time ( snicker ::) ) but the object can appear to be shifted from vertical to horizontal ??
I'd say that as Day was bending down to get the file, he simultaneously used right his hand to move the box aside slightly and his left to clutch the strap near the butt end.. resulting in the rifle angling toward vertical.. at least until he brought the right hand to bear as he rose up.
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
So you're now saying that not only can an object can appear in two places at the same time ( snicker ::) ) but the object can appear to be shifted from vertical to horizontal ??
So you're now saying that not only can an object can appear in two places at the same time
> Not me.. Stephen Hawking.
My reference to quantum theory was obviously meant as tongue-in cheek (apparently you missed my wink). And Hawking meant particles of energy on a quantum scale. For a billionth(ish) of a second. Now, maybe get at least a high school degree before trying to fathom that which you cannot possibly fathom.
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I've provided an image of the rifle on the floor + between boxes. And proving quantum theory as a bonus: An object
can appear in two places at the same time.. in this case on the floor AND between boxes!
So you're now saying that not only can an object can appear in two places at the same time ( snicker ::) ) but the object can appear to be shifted from vertical to horizontal ??
I created this gif from the Alyea footage.
It shows the moment just before Day picks up the rifle.
Fritz has entered the area in the boxes where the rifle is hid.
The footage shows the butt of the rifle at Fritz's feet and it is in the upright position. The footage is very poor quality but the rifle butt is possible to make out (note - the white cloth (visible in the photo you posted) is clearly visible in this footage)
The rifle is in the upright position when it is found.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XGgcwRw/Alyea-Rifle-at-Fritz-s-feet.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
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I created this gif from the Alyea footage.
It shows the moment just before Day picks up the rifle.
Fritz has entered the area in the boxes where the rifle is hid.
The footage shows the butt of the rifle at Fritz's feet and it is in the upright position. The footage is very poor quality but the rifle butt is possible to make out (note - the white cloth (visible in the photo you posted) is clearly visible in this footage)
The rifle is in the upright position when it is found.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XGgcwRw/Alyea-Rifle-at-Fritz-s-feet.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Thanks for your effort Dan..... But I believe that your wrong about the rifle being upright at Fritz's feet...As you've pointed out the image is very poor but it looks like the light colored metal of the butt plate can be seen in the horizontal position. Also I don't believe that Captain Fritz was right there within inches of the rifle...... Fritz was standing just to the east of the vertical column and if he had been within inches of the rifle it would have been the muzzle end of the rifle, NOT the butt of the rifle.
I wonder if the ( image of the rifle ?) at Fritz's feet was taken when they staged the in situ photo.
Could someone create frame by frame images of Fritz standing among the boxes?
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You were the one who posted "what did it matter", not me.
I don't care what you do but at least be a man of your own convictions.
Benavides testified under oath that he figured the man was Oswald, what more do you want and I noticed you ignored the mountain of other eyewitnesses, but you never were one to consider evidence that upsets your unique worldview.
Well considering you never acknowledged the majority of the eyewitnesses of what I posted, then if it takes an even bigger emoji, I certainly will! Thumb1:
JohnM
WAS LEE OSWALD QUESTIONED ABOUT THE MURDER OF JD TIPPITT?
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I'd say that as Day was bending down to get the file, he simultaneously used right his hand to move the box aside slightly and his left to clutch the strap near the butt end.. resulting in the rifle angling toward vertical.. at least until he brought the right hand to bear as he rose up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nVdchm5q/Alyea-clip3.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Yes, the rifle does swing into the vertical position, when Day lifts it....But the butt plate was horizontal ( parallel with the floor) before he started lifting the rifle.
THE TOM ALYEA FILM (TAKEN FROM INSIDE THE TEXAS ...
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/
I wish that I knew how to present this clip, frame by frame.....But the frame shows Captain Fritz in the dark suit to the rear of Lt Day as Day holds the carcano by the leather sling.... Apparently Day has switched his hands around because when he picked the rifle up from the flor he grabbed the leather sling with his left hand.....
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(https://i.postimg.cc/nVdchm5q/Alyea-clip3.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Yes, the rifle does swing into the vertical position, when Day lifts it....But the butt plate was horizontal ( parallel with the floor) before he started lifting the rifle.
THE TOM ALYEA FILM (TAKEN FROM INSIDE THE TEXAS ...
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/
It makes no difference if the rifle was found laying flat or propped up by the boxes (as seen in the WC photo)
Claiming conspiracy based on such a minor occurrence is utter insanity
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It makes no difference if the rifle was found laying flat or propped up by the boxes (as seen in the WC photo)
Claiming conspiracy based on such a minor occurrence is utter insanity
Statements like this illustrate how shallow you think.... It's NOT a minor point.... The rifle was found Laying on it's side beneath the pallet of boxes of books ....No fleeing sniper could have hid that rifle there AFTER the shots were fired ....It would have taken several minutes to hide the rifle as it was hidden. Thus, whoever hid that rifle hid it BEFORE the shooting.....
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Statements like this illustrate how shallow you think.... It's NOT a minor point.... The rifle was found Laying on it's side beneath the pallet of boxes of books ....No fleeing sniper could have hid that rifle there AFTER the shots were fired ....It would have taken several minutes to hide the rifle as it was hidden. Thus, whoever hid that rifle hid it BEFORE the shooting.....
You're the shallow one around here as amply demonstrated by your treatment of DVP, JohnM et al
Im surprised that anyone would put up with that; why don't you bugger off to a CTer forum
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From May 2013....
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
FWIW, it's my own opinion (based on LHO's clipboard being found very near this same area of the stairs and rifle) that Oswald likely pre-arranged his rifle-stashing area near the stairwell in advance of 12:30 PM.
But even if he didn't pre-arrange it, Walt's theory is just more of the same over-the-top dreck that Walt always utilizes in order to keep from having to admit what the evidence so plainly shows--and that is:
Walt's favorite "patsy" was, in truth, the assassin of President Kennedy -- and Oswald himself hid his own rifle in those boxes before fleeing down the nearby stairway.
Simple and Occam-like. But Walt likes the "Pyramids" approach better.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
[A conspiracy theorist going by the username] "Curt Jester", in his post linked HERE (https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/p3_ITFCeIkA/m/OtNp7M1M1poJ), is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to things that can never be pinned down that accurately.
All of these "timelines" revolving around Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, and also Lee Harvey Oswald can only be estimated to a certain degree, and can never be micro-analyzed right down to the second....and everybody knows it (even "Curt Jester").
If Vickie Adams' timeline...is off just a TINY little bit--then Oswald can make it. That's all it takes. And yet a whole book has been written by Barry Ernest that focuses chiefly on a theory that is completely destroyed if Miss Adams is just SLIGHTLY off in her time estimate.
And yet, even though most readers SHOULD realize that Ernest's whole book is based on a TIME ESTIMATE given by a witness, Ernest's book has, amazingly, received glowing reviews from the Amazon readers, averaging 4.4 stars (out of 5 maximum) at Amazon.com (through this writing on May 7, 2013).
It goes to show how eager the public is to disbelieve the Warren Commission, and how eager and willing they are to base their pro-conspiracy thinking on something as flimsy as one witness' estimate of when she started down those Book Depository stairs. Kinda sad, isn't it?
More....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html
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You're the shallow one around here as amply demonstrated by your treatment of DVP, JohnM et al
Im surprised that anyone would put up with that; why don't you bugger off a CTer forum
My dear lil Chappie.....I have no respect for you at all.... There are a few LNer's who display a bit of solid reasoning but you my Lil Chappie are on the bottom rung.... But don't get all puffed up ....That rung has a number of LNer's with whom you share the bottom rung.
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From May 2013....
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
FWIW, it's my own opinion (based on LHO's clipboard being found very near this same area of the stairs and rifle) that Oswald likely pre-arranged his rifle-stashing area near the stairwell in advance of 12:30 PM.
But even if he didn't pre-arrange it, Walt's theory is just more of the same over-the-top dreck that Walt always utilizes in order to keep from having to admit what the evidence so plainly shows--and that is:
Walt's favorite "patsy" was, in truth, the assassin of President Kennedy -- and Oswald himself hid his own rifle in those boxes before fleeing down the nearby stairway.
Simple and Occam-like. But Walt likes the "Pyramids" approach better.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
[A conspiracy theorist going by the username] "Curt Jester", in his post linked HERE (https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/p3_ITFCeIkA/m/OtNp7M1M1poJ), is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to things that can never be pinned down that accurately.
All of these "timelines" revolving around Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, and also Lee Harvey Oswald can only be estimated to a certain degree, and can never be micro-analyzed right down to the second....and everybody knows it (even "Curt Jester").
If Vickie Adams' timeline...is off just a TINY little bit--then Oswald can make it. That's all it takes. And yet a whole book has been written by Barry Ernest that focuses chiefly on a theory that is completely destroyed if Miss Adams is just SLIGHTLY off in her time estimate.
And yet, even though most readers SHOULD realize that Ernest's whole book is based on a TIME ESTIMATE given by a witness, Ernest's book has, amazingly, received glowing reviews from the Amazon readers, averaging 4.4 stars (out of 5 maximum) at Amazon.com (through this writing on May 7, 2013).
It goes to show how eager the public is to disbelieve the Warren Commission, and how eager and willing they are to base their pro-conspiracy thinking on something as flimsy as one witness' estimate of when she started down those Book Depository stairs. Kinda sad, isn't it?
More....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html
It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
Walt's favorite "patsy" was, in truth, the assassin of President Kennedy -- and Oswald himself hid his own rifle in those boxes before fleeing down the nearby stairway.
Pssst Von Pea Brain.....According to LBJ's cover up committee, how much time elapsed between the imaginary arrival of Lee Oswald at the lunchroom door and The arrival of Baker at the top of the stairs...... How much time elapsed A mere ONE second!.. In their staged imaginary re-enactment of Lee's alleged flight from the sixth floor window to the 2nd floor lunchroom Agent John Howlett used a light piece of 1X 4 lumber (Verses a bulky 9 pound carcano with a sling and scope mounted on it) The light piece of 1X4 was used so Howlett could very easily insert that grossly phony "carcano" in the crack behind the row of boxes...... It would have taken Howlett a tiny fraction of the time that would have been needed to hide the actual rifle in the manner that Boone and Weitzman found that rifle.....and Yet in the race to reach the lunchroom ahead of Baker, he beat Baker by a mere 1 Second!!! If he had hide the rifle as it had been found on the floor beneath the pallet of books Howlett would still have been on the sixth floor hiding the carcano while Baker was at the lunchroom, twirling his revolver on his little finger while awaiting "Oswald".
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To reiterate what I said above....
"[Walt] is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to
things that can never be pinned down that accurately."
But Walt will keep pretending that it takes forever and a day to place a rifle on the floor. (God only knows why.)
Walt's new nickname: Mr. Pyramids.
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My dear lil Chappie.....I have no respect for you at all.... There are a few LNer's who display a bit of solid reasoning but you my Lil Chappie are on the bottom rung.... But don't get all puffed up ....That rung has a number of LNer's with whom you share the bottom rung.
I'm all shook up
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Thanks for your effort Dan..... But I believe that your wrong about the rifle being upright at Fritz's feet...As you've pointed out the image is very poor but it looks like the light colored metal of the butt plate can be seen in the horizontal position. Also I don't believe that Captain Fritz was right there within inches of the rifle...... Fritz was standing just to the east of the vertical column and if he had been within inches of the rifle it would have been the muzzle end of the rifle, NOT the butt of the rifle.
I wonder if the ( image of the rifle ?) at Fritz's feet was taken when they staged the in situ photo.
Could someone create frame by frame images of Fritz standing among the boxes?
Could someone create frame by frame images of Fritz standing among the boxes?
(https://i.postimg.cc/fR6snkM3/Alyea-Fritz-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
This clip shows Fritz entering the boxes in which the rifle was hidden.
The next shot shows the rifle at Fritz's feet. The two screws in the butt plate reflect the light of Alyea's camera and clearly show the rifle is in an upright position.
I know that providing actual video footage of the rifle in the upright position before Day touches it will not be enough for you Walt but that's not on me.
Thanks for your effort Dan
Don't mention it.
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To reiterate what I said above....
"[Walt] is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to
things that can never be pinned down that accurately."
But Walt will keep pretending that it takes forever and a day to place a rifle on the floor. (God only knows why.)
Walt's new nickname: Mr. Pyramids.
Tut, tut.
'Wallyburger' works for me.
(Urban dictionary)
'An annoying person who makes slanderous comments and then repeats them like a spoiled child again and again while denying reality in a sanctimonious holier-than-though manner'
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To reiterate what I said above....
"[Walt] is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to
things that can never be pinned down that accurately."
But Walt will keep pretending that it takes forever and a day to place a rifle on the floor. (God only knows why.)
Walt's new nickname: Mr. Pyramids.
it takes forever and a day to place a rifle on the floor. (God only knows why.)
Thank you for acknowledging God.'s guidance........
The reason the throw down rifle had been well hidden is because Lee didn't want it found until he had ample time to escape the immediate area. He had been told that a plane would be waiting to fly him to Mexico ...on the first leg of his flight to Cuba.
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Lee...had been told that a plane would be waiting to fly him to Mexico ...on the first leg of his flight to Cuba.
It's fun to just make stuff up, isn't it Walter?
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It's fun to just make stuff up, isn't it Walter?
His best one - and it's difficult to choose just one - is that LBJ was going to announce to the public that Castro was behind the assassination. But the Soviets learned about the announcement ahead of time and had sent bombers armed with nuclear weapons to destroy New York city. The planes were on their way. With the nuclear warheads on board.
But LBJ was told that the planes were on their way and so he canceled the announcement.
I mean, you have to admit that's one helluva pile of malarkey.
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His best one - and it's difficult to choose just one - is that LBJ was going to announce to the public that Castro was behind the assassination. But the Soviets learned about the announcement ahead of time and had sent bombers armed with nuclear weapons to destroy New York city. The planes were on their way. With the nuclear warheads on board.
But LBJ was told that the planes were on their way and so he canceled the announcement.
I mean, you have to admit that's one helluva pile of malarkey.
It's circular reasoning at its finest, when you start out with the improbable assertion that Oswald must be innocent and all the officials lied then you are left with cherry picking minor contradictions and making illogical connections with these slim pickings but of course Walt's fabrications are legendary and he goes the extra mile and at least attempts to create a narrative but as can be seen any alternative to the official version is ridiculous.
JohnM
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It's circular reasoning at its finest, when you start out with the improbable assertion that Oswald must be innocent and all the officials lied then you are left with cherry picking minor contradictions and making illogical connections with these slim pickings but of course Walt's fabrications are legendary and he goes the extra mile and at least attempts to create a narrative but as can be seen any alternative to the official version is ridiculous.
JohnM
of course Walt's fabrications are legendary and he goes the extra mile and at least attempts to create a narrative but as can be seen any alternative to the official version is ridiculous.
Let's discuss my "fabrication" about Lee Oswald's sojourn from the TSBD to the Texas Theater......
I'll remind you that you have insisted that Lee Oswald was the young man who was the passenger in Bill Whaley's taxi that afternoon.
I've "fabricated" an account that utterly destroys your unsound "reasoning" ......
A) The WC investigators stated that Lee Oswald was still at the TSBD at 12:33 pm (12:33 is the approximate time that the young man got in Whaley's taxi at the Grey Hound bus depot.)
B) Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers. ( Lee Oswald was wearing a REDDISH BROWN SHIRT with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR, and dark grey trousers)
C) The WC investigators determined that when Lee left the TSBD he walked east on Elm street and boarded a bus at Murphy street at 12:40. When the bus became stuck in traffic he got off the bus at 12:44, and walked to the taxi stand at the Greyhound bus depot.
D) Lee hired a CITY taxi to take him to the rooming house in Oak Cliff and entered the taxi at 12:48.
E) During the trip Lee said he and the driver of the CITY cab talked and the driver told him that the President had been shot. ( Whaley said that his passenger would not engage in conversation )
F) Lee arrived at the rooming house at 1:00pm, and he paid the driver 85 CENTS. ( Whaley recorded that he charged the young man who was dressed in A BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers 95 CENTS and the man handed him a dollar bill and told him to keep the change)
END OF FABRICATION.....Your rebuttal please.....
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From May 2013....
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
FWIW, it's my own opinion (based on LHO's clipboard being found very near this same area of the stairs and rifle) that Oswald likely pre-arranged his rifle-stashing area near the stairwell in advance of 12:30 PM.
But even if he didn't pre-arrange it, Walt's theory is just more of the same over-the-top dreck that Walt always utilizes in order to keep from having to admit what the evidence so plainly shows--and that is:
Walt's favorite "patsy" was, in truth, the assassin of President Kennedy -- and Oswald himself hid his own rifle in those boxes before fleeing down the nearby stairway.
Simple and Occam-like. But Walt likes the "Pyramids" approach better.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
[A conspiracy theorist going by the username] "Curt Jester", in his post linked HERE (https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/p3_ITFCeIkA/m/OtNp7M1M1poJ), is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to things that can never be pinned down that accurately.
All of these "timelines" revolving around Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, and also Lee Harvey Oswald can only be estimated to a certain degree, and can never be micro-analyzed right down to the second....and everybody knows it (even "Curt Jester").
If Vickie Adams' timeline...is off just a TINY little bit--then Oswald can make it. That's all it takes. And yet a whole book has been written by Barry Ernest that focuses chiefly on a theory that is completely destroyed if Miss Adams is just SLIGHTLY off in her time estimate.
And yet, even though most readers SHOULD realize that Ernest's whole book is based on a TIME ESTIMATE given by a witness, Ernest's book has, amazingly, received glowing reviews from the Amazon readers, averaging 4.4 stars (out of 5 maximum) at Amazon.com (through this writing on May 7, 2013).
It goes to show how eager the public is to disbelieve the Warren Commission, and how eager and willing they are to base their pro-conspiracy thinking on something as flimsy as one witness' estimate of when she started down those Book Depository stairs. Kinda sad, isn't it?
More....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html
It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
One of the cops that was there ( I don't recall who) said that it was obvious that the rifle had been carefully hidden. And this was long before anybody knew about the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. Whoever observed that the rifle had NOT been hastily cast aside was with the original group of cops who saw the rifle before any boxes were moved or the rifle touched.
Icould make a WAG and say that it was Seymour Weitzman who observed that the rifle was not hastily cast aside., but that's simply a guess..... I hope I can find the officer's declaration......
Hoorah....I've found it.....Tom Alyea observed that the hhiding place for the rifle was constructed BEFORE the shooting.
Q - Did Oswald get enough time to hide his weapon so perfectly, if we considered that he was interviewed by Baker and Truly less than 1 minute after the last shot. According to you and with your perfect knowledge of the building, was that possible?
Did Oswald get enough time to hide his weapon so perfectly,
The rifle was "perfectly hidden".... Do the official DPD insitu photos show a "perfectly hidden" rifle ??
According to you and with your perfect knowledge of the building, was that possible?
Yes, Oswald had time to hide his rifle. The location was in front of the stairway that Oswald took to leave the floor. It was obviously pre constructed so he could slip the rifle under the overhanging boxes as he entered the down stairway, only about five feet away. It would have not taken him over two seconds. No boxes had to be moved. The rifle did not touch any of the three overhanging boxes, and there were no boxes touching the rifle. When Lt. Day retrieved it, he pulled it effortlessly from under the overhanging boxes. This was the first time any of us saw the scope, bolt and trigger housing.
It was obviously pre constructed
Alyea recognized that the site had to have been constructed BEFORE the shooting.....
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It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
One of the cops that was there ( I don't recall who) said that it was obvious that the rifle had been carefully hidden. And this was long before anybody knew about the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. Whoever observed that the rifle had NOT been hastily cast aside was with the original group of cops who saw the rifle before any boxes were moved or the rifle touched.
Icould make a WAG and say that it was Seymour Weitzman who observed that the rifle was not hastily cast aside., but that's simply a guess..... I hope I can find the officer's declaration......
Hoorah....I've found it.....Tom Alyea observed that the hhiding place for the rifle was constructed BEFORE the shooting.
Q - Did Oswald get enough time to hide his weapon so perfectly, if we considered that he was interviewed by Baker and Truly less than 1 minute after the last shot. According to you and with your perfect knowledge of the building, was that possible?
Did Oswald get enough time to hide his weapon so perfectly,
The rifle was "perfectly hidden".... Do the official DPD insitu photos show a "perfectly hidden" rifle ??
According to you and with your perfect knowledge of the building, was that possible?
Yes, Oswald had time to hide his rifle. The location was in front of the stairway that Oswald took to leave the floor. It was obviously pre constructed so he could slip the rifle under the overhanging boxes as he entered the down stairway, only about five feet away. It would have not taken him over two seconds. No boxes had to be moved. The rifle did not touch any of the three overhanging boxes, and there were no boxes touching the rifle. When Lt. Day retrieved it, he pulled it effortlessly from under the overhanging boxes. This was the first time any of us saw the scope, bolt and trigger housing.
It was obviously pre constructed
Alyea recognized that the site had to have been constructed BEFORE the shooting.....
Question for Tom Alyea.....
Q - Did Oswald get enough time to hide his weapon so perfectly, if we considered that he was interviewed by Baker and Truly less than 1 minute after the last shot. According to you and with your perfect knowledge of the building, was that possible?
Did Oswald get enough time to hide his weapon so perfectly,
Tom Alyea answered:....
Yes, Oswald had time to hide his rifle. The location was in front of the stairway that Oswald took to leave the floor. It was obviously pre constructed so he could slip the rifle under the overhanging boxes as he entered the down stairway, only about five feet away. It would have not taken him over two seconds. No boxes had to be moved. The rifle did not touch any of the three overhanging boxes, and there were no boxes touching the rifle. When Lt. Day retrieved it, he pulled it effortlessly from under the overhanging boxes. This was the first time any of us saw the scope, bolt and trigger housing.
It was obviously pre constructed
Tom Alyea overlooked a few important aspects.....
"It was obviously pre constructed so he could slip the rifle under the overhanging boxes"
But Tom that rifle weighed 9 pounds and it had a scope and a floppy sling protruding off the left side of the rifle... it wasn't a light, and easy to handle piece of 1X 4 lumber. The skinny Lee Oswald would have to have been plastic man, have been able to streeeeech out and place that 9 pound rifle ON THE FLOOR beneath the pallet of books. But at least you're right on one important point Mr Alyea.... The hiding place was in fact constructed BEFORE the shooting.
Oh BTW Tom.....Can you explain the boxes that formed the "roof" over the "cavern". You may recall that Mr Boone said that he moved a couple of boxes that formed the roof above the rifle. And he then shined his flashlight down into the dark cavern and he spotted a small portion of the butt of the rifle that was laying on the floor beneath the pallet. How did those boxes get placed there as the roof for the hiding place???
The rifle did not touch any of the three overhanging boxes, and there were no boxes touching the rifle.
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID....
You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
:D
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It's circular reasoning at its finest, when you start out with the improbable assertion that Oswald must be innocent and all the officials lied then you are left with cherry picking minor contradictions and making illogical connections with these slim pickings but of course Walt's fabrications are legendary and he goes the extra mile and at least attempts to create a narrative but as can be seen any alternative to the official version is ridiculous.
...any alternative to the official version was ridiculous unacceptable.
There-- fixed it (https://ruadventures.com/forum/Smileys/animated/tiphat.gif)No charge.
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B) Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers. ( Lee Oswald was wearing a REDDISH BROWN SHIRT with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR, and dark grey trousers)
Whaley told the FBI that his infamous passenger was wearing a brown shirt, nothing about any jacket.
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C) The WC investigators determined that when Lee left the TSBD he walked east on Elm street and boarded a bus at Murphy street at 12:40. When the bus became stuck in traffic he got off the bus at 12:44, and walked to the taxi stand at the Greyhound bus depot.
D) Lee hired a CITY taxi to take him to the rooming house in Oak Cliff and entered the taxi at 12:48.
E) During the trip Lee said he and the driver of the CITY cab talked and the driver told him that the President had been shot. ( Whaley said that his passenger would not engage in conversation )
F) Lee arrived at the rooming house at 1:00pm, and he paid the driver 85 CENTS. ( Whaley recorded that he charged the young man who was dressed in A BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers 95 CENTS and the man handed him a dollar bill and told him to keep the change)
The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of Cecil McWatters and William Whaley) in an attempt the determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house.
Based on McWatters' statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus (we know Oswald boarded that bus because he had McWatters' specific bus transfer and McWatters said he issued that transfer to only one woman and only one man), Oswald walked about seven blocks east (into the downtown area) after he left the Depository within three minutes of the shooting.
"So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about two blocks (back) asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street." -- Cecil McWatters
They concluded, based on what McWatters told them (along with the Secret Service agents and FBI agents walking the route in an average time of six and a half minutes), that Oswald boarded the bus around 12:40 near the intersection of Field St. and Elm St. and then, after being on the bus for no more than four minutes, Oswald got off the bus near Lamar St. and Elm St. (asking for the transfer as he got off the bus).
So now we have Oswald leaving the bus around 12:44.
Oswald then walked three to four short blocks to the Greyhound station where he boarded Whaley's cab. This has Oswald entering the cab around 12:48.
They then, with Whaley, reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound to the intersection of Beckley and Neely (Oswald got out of the cab on Beckley just north of the intersection with Neely). They concluded (using a stopwatch) that the cab ride took five minutes and thirty seconds.
So now we have Oswald exiting Whaley's cab on Beckley at 12:53-12:54.
Still using the stopwatch, they concluded that it was a five minute and forty-five second walk from the point Oswald exited the cab back to the rooming house.
I think Oswald got to the rooming house between 12:58 and 1:00 and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket before hurrying out the door, zipping up the jacket as he went out the door.
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Whaley told the FBI that his infamous passenger was wearing a brown shirt, nothing about any jacket.
So your key witness perjured himself when giving his WC testimony? Got it! Thumb1:
Speaking of what Mr Whaley told the FBI, this is from 11/23------------------
(https://i.imgur.com/rB0OSQJ.jpg)
Therefore, according to your methodology, your key witness also perjured himself when he told the WC that he dropped Mr Oswald off at the 700 block
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So your key witness perjured himself when giving his WC testimony? Got it! Thumb1:
Speaking of what Mr Whaley told the FBI, this is from 11/23------------------
(https://i.imgur.com/rB0OSQJ.jpg)
Therefore, according to your methodology, your key witness also perjured himself when he told the WC that he dropped Mr Oswald off at the 700 block
I'd bet that Whaley's passenger was down to his last dollar, and when he saw the meter flip to 95 cents he told Whaley to pull over and he'd get out....
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I'd bet that Whaley's passenger was down to his last dollar, and when he saw the meter flip to 95 cents he told Whaley to pull over and he'd get out....
But the fare said 'keep the change' so he still had another $.05 travel money left.
I'm perfectly aware of Whaley's testimony in 1964. It is YOU who is unaware of what Whaley told the FBI soon after the assassination.
I am more concerned about what the Feddos had Whaley say come testimony time. You cannot pick and choose which parts of his statements support your belief. The fare either had a jacket on or he didn't....either dropped off at the 500 block or he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, today at noon there were six people including yourself that got in the car to travel that route that you drove a passenger on November 22, is that correct?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. One of them is sitting here in this room, Dr. Goldberg, over there. Do you see him?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you and I got in the car, and then Secret Service Agent John Joe Howlett. We drove in his car and he was the driver, wasn't he?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then there was Mr. Joe Ball, Joseph A. Ball, and then a Mr. Davis, this tall light-haired person?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Davis is from the attorney general's office in Texas. Now what is the fact as to whether or not we went to the Greyhound Bus Depot here in Dallas?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you point out the place where you said you picked up this passenger?
Mr. WHALEY. I did, sir.
Mr. BELIN. We had a stopwatch, didn't we?
Never mind there Whaley...we are in control.
Mr. WHALEY. When I got to Beckley almost to the intersection of Beckley and Neely, he said, "This will do right here." and I pulled up to the curb
Mr. BELIN. Was that the 500 block of North Beckley?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that was the 700 block.
Mr. BELIN. You let him out not at the 500 block but the 700 block of North Beckley?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Yes sir...no sir... which way did I go sir?
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But the fare said 'keep the change' so he still had another $.05 travel money left.
I am more concerned about what the Feddos had Whaley say come testimony time. You cannot pick and choose which parts of his statements support your belief. The fare either had a jacket on or he didn't....either dropped off at the 500 block or he didn't. Never mind there Whaley...we are in control.Yes sir...no sir... which way did I go sir?
But the fare said 'keep the change' so he still had another $.05 travel money left.
But if the man had stayed in the taxi until the meter incremented to the next number he would have had to pay $1.05...
I am more concerned about what the Feddos had Whaley say come testimony time. You cannot pick and choose which parts of his statements support your belief. The fare either had a jacket on or he didn't....either dropped off at the 500 block or he didn't.
There's no need to pick and choose.... The WC investigators showed us that Lee couldn't have arrived at the Greyhound taxi stand prior to 12:48..... And Whaley had departed from the Greyhound, at least ten minutes before Lee arrived.
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But if the man had stayed in the taxi until the meter incremented to the next number he would have had to pay $1.05...
Do you think that old cab driver would step out and give some young guy an allocation of whipass over a nickel?
But never mind that. The fare said specifically 'the 500 block...N Beckley'. Why? That is at the intersection of Davis and Beckley and an easy 10 minutes walk to 10th and Patton. This--- 'Oswald was/must have been scoping out the rooming house' is purely illogical speculation.
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Do you think that old cab driver would step out and give some young guy an allocation of whipass over a nickel?
But never mind that. The fare said specifically 'the 500 block...N Beckley'. Why? That is at the intersection of Davis and Beckley and an easy 10 minutes walk to 10th and Patton. This--- 'Oswald was/must have been scoping out the rooming house' is purely illogical speculation.
Jerry .... Whaley at some point said... The guy who was wearing a blue jacket looked like he had just arrived on a bus , and was tired and not talkative.... He obviously knew his way around Oak cliff because he thought that he had enough money to get to the 500 block of N. Beckley. When he saw the meter flip to 95 cents he knew that he had consumed the dollar he he had in his pocket....so he asked Whaley to pull over to the curb and let him out of the cab.....
The fare said specifically 'the 500 block...N Beckley'. Why? That is at the intersection of Davis and Beckley and an easy 10 minutes walk to 10th and Patton.
I suspect that Whaley's passenger lived near the intersection of Davis and Beckley..... And thought the dollar would take him home..... He may have used a taxi to travel from the bus depot to home on previous occasions but Whaley took a slighly longer route and the Dollar was not going to cover the cost of the trip.
Of course this is simply speculation but it is a fact that Whaley's passenger WAS NOT Lee Oswald.
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One of the many weaknesses of the official story of how Mr Oswald got to Beckley is his alleged decision to catch a bus on Elm St that would quite predictably end up snarled in traffic before taking its passengers into the same Dealey Plaza from which Mr Oswald was so desperate to get away from. Preposterous!
If Mr Oswald wanted to get a bus, he would have kept walking south on Houston
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One of the many weaknesses of the official story of how Mr Oswald got to Beckley is his alleged decision to catch a bus on Elm St that would quite predictably end up snarled in traffic before taking its passengers into the same Dealey Plaza from which Mr Oswald was so desperate to get away from. Preposterous!
If Mr Oswald wanted to get a bus, he would have kept walking south on Houston
Any bus that was going to Oak Cliff would have passed by on Houston before the motorcade and it would have been long gone so there was no opportunity to catch a bus by walking south on Houston.
We simply don't know what Lee was thinking..... He may have boarded the bus to get an opportunity to sit down and think.
I do believe that he had an appointment to keep in the Texas theater, and he wanted to get there as fast as possible. Thus he got off the bus and walked to the Greyhound taxi stand, and hired a City cab at 12:48 driven by "mr Smith" not Wild William Whaley.
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Do you think that old cab driver would step out and give some young guy an allocation of whipass over a nickel?
But never mind that. The fare said specifically 'the 500 block...N Beckley'. Why? That is at the intersection of Davis and Beckley and an easy 10 minutes walk to 10th and Patton. This--- 'Oswald was/must have been scoping out the rooming house' is purely illogical speculation.
Lee Oswald told Fritz that he gave the taxi driver 85 cents to pay for his fare to Beckley and Zangs
Whaley charged his passenger 95 cents for the ride to 700 N. Beckley, and Whaley said the man gave him a dollar.
What can we conclude about these two different accounts ??
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One of the many weaknesses of the official story of how Mr Oswald got to Beckley is his alleged decision to catch a bus on Elm St that would quite predictably end up snarled in traffic before taking its passengers into the same Dealey Plaza from which Mr Oswald was so desperate to get away from. Preposterous!
If Mr Oswald wanted to get a bus, he would have kept walking south on Houston
For those who believe Oswald was a fugitive on the run when he left the TSBD after the assassination, his random, making it up as he goes along progress back to the rooming house isn't really an issue.
Obviously, for those who believe Oswald was completely innocent and in no way involved in the assassination of the president it must seem bizarre.
If he was an innocent bystander who just decided to leave work for no reason, why would he be in a rush to get anywhere? He could've stayed on that bus as long as he wanted to, there was no reason for him to rush home.
Why would he suddenly decide to get a taxi considering what a tight-fisted f%ck he was?
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Any bus that was going to Oak Cliff would have passed by on Houston before the motorcade and it would have been long gone so there was no opportunity to catch a bus by walking south on Houston.
Fair point, Mr Cakebread, thank you Thumb1:
We simply don't know what Lee was thinking..... He may have boarded the bus to get an opportunity to sit down and think.
I do believe that he had an appointment to keep in the Texas theater, and he wanted to get there as fast as possible. Thus he got off the bus and walked to the Greyhound taxi stand, and hired a City cab at 12:48 driven by "mr Smith" not Wild William Whaley.
Just can't see Mr Oswald walking away from Dealey Plaza only to get on board a vehicle that is heading to................. Dealey Plaza. I still think Mr Frazier may have been his ticket out of town
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Fair point, Mr Cakebread, thank you Thumb1:
Just can't see Mr Oswald walking away from Dealey Plaza only to get on board a vehicle that is heading to................. Dealey Plaza. I still think Mr Frazier may have been his ticket out of town
Approximately what time do you imagine Frazier would've collected his vehicle from the railroad yard car park to give Bystander Ozzie an innocent lift home?
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For those who believe Oswald was a fugitive on the run when he left the TSBD after the assassination, his random, making it up as he goes along progress back to the rooming house isn't really an issue.
Hmmmmmmmmm.... It does require the complete lack of any escape plan. And the usual answer-----------he hadn't expected to leave the Depository alive------------doesn't ring true to me. The man we see in custody does not look like someone surprised to be still alive---------he looks like someone kicking back furiously at where fate has landed him.
If he was involved, then I think Mr Howard Brennan's recollection of a car by the Depository that was gone just after the assassination may explain Mr Oswald's erratic movements: he found himself stranded
Obviously, for those who believe Oswald was completely innocent and in no way involved in the assassination of the president it must seem bizarre.
If he was an innocent bystander who just decided to leave work for no reason, why would he be in a rush to get anywhere?
Well, quite, but I think this is a bit of a strawman argument. CTs who see Mr Oswald as innocent (of any involvement) tend to argue he was spooked out by what had happened--------------and worried that his subversive profile would see him pinned for involvement. Cf "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union"......
Of course, most CTs fall somewhere between the LHO-As-Assassin and LHO-As-Innocent-Bystander options
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Approximately what time do you imagine Frazier would've collected his vehicle from the railroad yard car park to give Bystander Ozzie an innocent lift home?
I honestly don't know, Mr O'Meara. Perhaps 12:45 or so?
But I am not convinced that Mr Frazier hung around the Depository like he said he did. Mr Bonnie Ray Williams told authorities he last saw Mr Frazier between 10am and 11am. As far as I know, not a single person mentions Mr Frazier as a figure in the Depository after the assassination. That's passing strange, given that Mr Frazier would have been the go-to guy for information on Mr Oswald's whereabouts---------------he was Mr Oswald's one and only friend in the place, as well as the man who gave him rides to and from work. And the co-workers knew it.
As well as that, of course, Mr Frazier's accounts of where he went after leaving Dealey Plaza are all over the place.
Perhaps he asked Mr Shelley or Mr Truly for permission to slip away to visit his stepfather, who was recovering from a heart attack? In which case he would have been gone but not 'missing' (in the sense of unaccounted for)
By the way! I have never claimed that Mr Oswald was necessarily an innocent bystander, or that his request for a ride off Mr Frazier (if it happened) was necessarily innocent. That he was not up on the sixth floor firing shots is however beyond doubt IMO
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Hmmmmmmmmm.... It does require the complete lack of any escape plan. And the usual answer-----------he hadn't expected to leave the Depository alive------------doesn't ring true to me. The man we see in custody does not look like someone surprised to be still alive---------he looks like someone kicking back furiously at where fate has landed him.
If he was involved, then I think Mr Howard Brennan's recollection of a car by the Depository that was gone just after the assassination may explain Mr Oswald's erratic movements: he found himself stranded
Well, quite, but I think this is a bit of a strawman argument. CTs who see Mr Oswald as innocent (of any involvement) tend to argue he was spooked out by what had happened--------------and worried that his subversive profile would see him pinned for involvement. Cf "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union"......
Of course, most CTs fall somewhere between the LHO-As-Assassin and LHO-As-Innocent-Bystander options
I was more thinking of your suggestion that Frazier somehow collected his vehicle from an area swarming with police taking names and plates etc. to give Bystander Ozzzie a lift home.
Do you think Ozzie was on his own, involved or other?
LATER EDIT: You answered the questions I was asking before I even asked them.
Impressive.
Thumb1:
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I honestly don't know, Mr O'Meara. Perhaps 12:45 or so?
But I am not convinced that Mr Frazier hung around the Depository like he said he did. Mr Bonnie Ray Williams told authorities he last saw Mr Frazier between 10am and 11am. As far as I know, not a single person mentions Mr Frazier as a figure in the Depository after the assassination. That's passing strange, given that Mr Frazier would have been the go-to guy for information on Mr Oswald's whereabouts---------------he was Mr Oswald's one and only friend in the place, as well as the man who gave him rides to and from work. And the co-workers knew it.
As well as that, of course, Mr Frazier's accounts of where he went after leaving Dealey Plaza are all over the place.
By the way! I have never claimed that Mr Oswald was necessarily an innocent bystander, or that his request for a ride off Mr Frazier (if it happened) was necessarily innocent. That he was not up on the sixth floor firing shots is however beyond doubt IMO
Obviously there are two questions to be asked:
How did Frazier get his vehicle out of such a heavily policed area without being noticed?
Where was Oz when all this was going on?
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I was more thinking of your suggestion that Frazier somehow collected his vehicle from an area swarming with police taking names and plates etc. to give Bystander Ozzzie a lift home.
How do you know the area where Mr Frazier had parked his car was swarming with police? It was a long ways from the Depository.
Do you think Ozzie was on his own, involved or other?
By definition he was not on his own (given that he didn't fire any shots!). If he was involved, then was he a knowing participant in an assassination conspiracy? An unknowing pawn in one? A knowing participant in what he thought would be a designedly unsuccessful assassination attempt? I honestly don't know, and neither does anyone.
The Nixie parcel thing does intrigue me greatly. IF that is Mr Oswald's handwriting, and if he posted that parcel, then he was up to something.
Do you believe Mr Jack Dougherty (your assassin) was on his own, involved or other?
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Obviously there are two questions to be asked:
How did Frazier get his vehicle out of such a heavily policed area without being noticed?
See above
Where was Oz when all this was going on?
I am surmising that
-----Mr Frazier did indeed (as he has said) see Mr Oswald on the Houston St side of the Depository several minutes after the shooting (looking in vain for the Oldsmobile that Mr Brennan had seen)
-----Mr Oswald asked him for a ride and Mr Frazier agreed
-----Mr Oswald was therefore in the car when Mr Frazier drove away
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How do you know the area where Mr Frazier had parked his car was swarming with police? It was a long ways from the Depository.
By definition he was not on his own (given that he didn't fire any shots!). If he was involved, then was he a knowing participant in an assassination conspiracy? An unknowing pawn in one? A knowing participant in what he thought would be a designedly unsuccessful assassination attempt? I honestly don't know, and neither does anyone.
The Nixie parcel thing does intrigue me greatly. IF that is Mr Oswald's handwriting, and if he posted that parcel, then he was up to something.
Do you believe Mr Jack Dougherty (your assassin) was on his own, involved or other?
"Do you believe Mr Jack Dougherty (your assassin) was on his own, involved or other?"
I'm a minimalist when considering complex problems.
I would like like to believe Oswald acted alone but I find compelling evidence that he didn't.
My interpretation of the evidence has a white male with a high powered rifle on the 6th floor while Oswald was elsewhere.
As a minimalist I don't accept multiple shooters or assassination teams etc. It's a inside job.
My working model at the moment has four men who knew what was going to happen that day - Fritz, Shelley, Truly and Dougherty (the shooter and potential next in line "Patsy" if Oz didn't work out).
It is possible others knew but that is not a prerequisite of my model.
Oswald knew something very serious was going down that day and was intimately involved but i don't believe he knew the full extent of what was going to happen (this is more of a subjective opinion - he may well have been aware that there was going to be an assassination attempt).
The main job of Shelley and Truly was to direct the investigation towards Oswald, although they had other tasks to perform.
Fritz was in the perfect position to control the most important aspects of the case in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.
The problem with this model comes further down the line and is something I've not investigated properly yet - who did these men answer to and how could, whoever this person(s) may be, control the parade route?
I've no doubt there are greater problems in store but I'm still stuck in Dealey Plaza and am slowly working my way out.
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"Do you believe Mr Jack Dougherty (your assassin) was on his own, involved or other?"
I'm a minimalist when considering complex problems.
I would like like to believe Oswald acted alone but I find compelling evidence that he didn't.
My interpretation of the evidence has a white male with a high powered rifle on the 6th floor while Oswald was elsewhere.
As a minimalist I don't accept multiple shooters or assassination teams etc. It's a inside job.
My working model at the moment has four men who knew what was going to happen that day - Fritz, Shelley, Truly and Dougherty (the shooter and potential next in line "Patsy" if Oz didn't work out).
It is possible others knew but that is not a prerequisite of my model.
Oswald knew something very serious was going down that day and was intimately involved but i don't believe he knew the full extent of what was going to happen (this is more of a subjective opinion - he may well have been aware that there was going to be an assassination attempt).
The main job of Shelley and Truly was to direct the investigation towards Oswald, although they had other tasks to perform.
Fritz was in the perfect position to control the most important aspects of the case in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.
The problem with this model comes further down the line and is something I've not investigated properly yet - who did these men answer to and how could, whoever this person(s) may be, control the parade route?
I've no doubt there are greater problems in store but I'm still stuck in Dealey Plaza and am slowly working my way out.
Thank you for your thoughts, Mr O'Meara. You have laid out your theory at admirable length here! Thumb1:
I think you're dead wrong about Mr Dougherty being the sixth-floor shooter, but I do find it interesting that he is the only one of the now household-name employees of whom we have never (knowingly) seen a photograph. He's just nowhere man...............
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I don't suppose this fellow caught on camera on the first floor could be the elusive Mr Dougherty?
(https://i.imgur.com/S7of0rV.jpg)
Though he doesn't seem to match the "great big husky fellow" evoked by Mr Truly in his testimony.......
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I am surmising that
-----Mr Frazier did indeed (as he has said) see Mr Oswald on the Houston St side of the Depository several minutes after the shooting (looking in vain for the Oldsmobile that Mr Brennan had seen)
-----Mr Oswald asked him for a ride and Mr Frazier agreed
-----Mr Oswald was therefore in the car when Mr Frazier drove away
Question! Why did DPD see fit not just to arrest Mr Frazier that evening but also to confiscate as evidence Mr Frazier's rifle, which was in his home? All because he gave the suspect in custody a ride to work? Really?
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I don't suppose this fellow caught on camera on the first floor could be the elusive Mr Dougherty?
(https://i.imgur.com/S7of0rV.jpg)
Though he doesn't seem to match the "great big husky fellow" evoked by Mr Truly in his testimony.......
My money's on this guy:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXcpT5NH/Dougherty-on-6th.png) (https://postimg.cc/sQMQXGy5)
Big chap but still fits the general description.
(wish I had a better copy of it)
PS: what film did you get that still from?
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Seems a few characters around here have spent way
too much time down their dark, dank rabbit holes
Let there be light, already
(https://i.postimg.cc/jST5Qm72/S7of0rV.jpg)
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My money's on this guy:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXcpT5NH/Dougherty-on-6th.png) (https://postimg.cc/sQMQXGy5)
Big chap but still fits the general description.
(wish I had a better copy of it)
PS: what film did you get that still from?
My money's on this guy:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXcpT5NH/Dougherty-on-6th.png) (https://postimg.cc/sQMQXGy5)
I believe that man is Jack Dougherty....
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PS: what film did you get that still from?
It's a crop from one of the DPD photos. Not sure of the date
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It's a crop from one of the DPD photos. Not sure of the date
I don't believe that it's a crop from a DPD film....It may be a crop from Tom Alyea's film..... There are better and cleare copies of the film that have been posted right here in this forum..... In the better copy you can see that the big guy was standing near the location where the rifle was found in the NW corner of the sixth floor and he's facing SE. He is wearing a shirt that looks to be identical to the shirt that the man behind the sixth floor window was wearing. I believe it was Groden who spotted the man behind the sixth floor window ( see page 208 Of Groden's TKOAP)
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I don't believe that it's a crop from a DPD film....It may be a crop from Tom Alyea's film..... There are better and cleare copies of the film that have been posted right here in this forum..... In the better copy you can see that the big guy was standing near the location where the rifle was found in the NW corner of the sixth floor and he's facing SE. He is wearing a shirt that looks to be identical to the shirt that the man behind the sixth floor window was wearing. I believe it was Groden who spotted the man behind the sixth floor window ( see page 208 Of Groden's TKOAP)
No, it's a crop from one of several DPD photos showing the wrapping area on the first floor. I cropped it myself! Thumb1:
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No, it's a crop from one of several DPD photos showing the wrapping area on the first floor. I cropped it myself! Thumb1:
You can believe what you want....It's no hair off my head...ut If you want to be accurate that crop is from the NW corner of the sixth floor, That's detective Gerald Hill talking to Captain Fritz....and I believe that it was filmed Before the rifle was found.
(https://i.imgur.com/fprfY9b.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/DJOuSR9.gif)
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You can believe what you want....It's no hair off my head...ut If you want to be accurate that crop is from the NW corner of the sixth floor,
What the hell are you talking about? I was informing Mr O'Meara as to the provenance of THIS image:
(https://i.imgur.com/S7of0rV.jpg)
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Question! Why did DPD see fit not just to arrest Mr Frazier that evening but also to confiscate as evidence Mr Frazier's rifle, which was in his home? All because he gave the suspect in custody a ride to work? Really?
"I went to the house first, and then went off to the hospital"-----------Mr Frazier, HSCA interview 1978
Mr Frazier in this interview makes it quite clear that he drove home to Irving first, and then decided to relieve his sister at the hospital where she was visiting with their stepfather.
In more recent interviews he has erased the visit home.
The time of his arrest at the hospital was 5:55 pm. By the time the two detectives brought him out of the hospital, his car had already been extensively searched.
Apparently the information that Mr Frazier was at the hospital had come from his sister. Yet the first hospital they looked for Mr Frazier at was Parkland Hospital, NOT the hospital where Mr Frazier's stepfather was actually recuperating!
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"I went to the house first, and then went off to the hospital"-----------Mr Frazier, HSCA interview 1978
Mr Frazier in this interview makes it quite clear that he drove home to Irving first, and then decided to relieve his sister at the hospital where she was visiting with their stepfather.
In more recent interviews he has erased the visit home.
The time of his arrest at the hospital was 5:55 pm. By the time the two detectives brought him out of the hospital, his car had already been extensively searched.
Apparently the information that Mr Frazier was at the hospital had come from his sister. Yet the first hospital they looked for Mr Frazier at was Parkland Hospital, NOT the hospital where Mr Frazier's stepfather was actually recuperating!
That's the way I'd heard that BWF went after he left the TSBD....He went home first.....Before going to the Irving hospital.
And the police had already searched his car before they went into the hospital....and used a telephone call to lure Frazier out of his Step Dad's room.