JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Bill Chapman on August 28, 2021, 12:25:32 AM
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BILL CHAPMAN
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BILL CHAPMAN
In the London "trial" of Oswald, Buell Frazier testified that Oswald walked to the kitchen window and stared at his sister until she called out to her brother that there was a strange man outside. "Who is that?" she said. Frazier said it was Lee Oswald the man who worked with him. She had never seen him before.
Frazier continued: "That was the first time he had ever done that. He never came up to our house before." Before then Frazier had gotten into his car and drove to the Paine's house where Oswald would come out and get into the car.
But not that November day.
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According to the FBI agents present during the interrogation, Oswald didn’t actually say he ate lunch with James Jarman:
"On November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize." (WR622)
Don Thomas:
In fact, during their Warren Commission testimony, Junior Jarman and Harold Norman separately confirmed that they had "walked through" the first floor lounge, known as the domino room, to retrieve their sandwiches, thus independently corroborating Oswald's account. Significantly, Harold Norman testified that usually some of the employees, including himself, would play dominos in this room during the lunch hour, but on this particular day, because of the pending passage of the Presidential motorcade, no one was playing dominos (3WH189). When asked if anyone else was in the domino room, Norman, who did eat his sandwich in the lounge before joining his friends to watch the motorcade, responded that in fact somebody else was present, but he could not remember who it was (3WH189). Hence Oswald had somehow correctly guessed not only the people who had been in the lunchroom that day, but their actions, even though they were different from the usual.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html
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According to the FBI agents present during the interrogation, Oswald didn’t actually say he ate lunch with James Jarman:
"On November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize." (WR622)
Don Thomas:
In fact, during their Warren Commission testimony, Junior Jarman and Harold Norman separately confirmed that they had "walked through" the first floor lounge, known as the domino room, to retrieve their sandwiches, thus independently corroborating Oswald's account. Significantly, Harold Norman testified that usually some of the employees, including himself, would play dominos in this room during the lunch hour, but on this particular day, because of the pending passage of the Presidential motorcade, no one was playing dominos (3WH189). When asked if anyone else was in the domino room, Norman, who did eat his sandwich in the lounge before joining his friends to watch the motorcade, responded that in fact somebody else was present, but he could not remember who it was (3WH189). Hence Oswald had somehow correctly guessed not only the people who had been in the lunchroom that day, but their actions, even though they were different from the usual.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html
Oswald had somehow correctly guessed not only the people who had been in the lunchroom that day, but their actions, even though they were different from the usual
What are the odds that Lee could have correctly guessed the identities of the people and their actions at about 12:26/ 12:27 ??
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According to the FBI agents present during the interrogation, Oswald didn’t actually say he ate lunch with James Jarman:
"On November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize." (WR622)
Don Thomas:
In fact, during their Warren Commission testimony, Junior Jarman and Harold Norman separately confirmed that they had "walked through" the first floor lounge, known as the domino room, to retrieve their sandwiches, thus independently corroborating Oswald's account. Significantly, Harold Norman testified that usually some of the employees, including himself, would play dominos in this room during the lunch hour, but on this particular day, because of the pending passage of the Presidential motorcade, no one was playing dominos (3WH189). When asked if anyone else was in the domino room, Norman, who did eat his sandwich in the lounge before joining his friends to watch the motorcade, responded that in fact somebody else was present, but he could not remember who it was (3WH189). Hence Oswald had somehow correctly guessed not only the people who had been in the lunchroom that day, but their actions, even though they were different from the usual.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html
James Jarman WC testimony
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
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James Jarman WC testimony
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
The interrogation wasn’t audio recorded so we don’t know exactly what Oswald said but the FBI’s description of Oswald’s statement about seeing Jarman walk through the lunch room makes more sense than Capt Will Fritz’s.
Can you imagine Oswald the loner having lunch with anyone?
The problem with the FBI version of what Oswald said is that it’s corroborated by Jarman and Norman who said they DID walk through the lunch room that day and saw someone sitting in there but couldn’t identify who it was.
See the FBI notes on the interrogation here - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=646
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The interrogation wasn’t audio recorded so we don’t know exactly what Oswald said but the FBI’s description of Oswald’s statement about seeing Jarman walk through the lunch room makes more sense than Capt Will Fritz’s.
Can you imagine Oswald the loner having lunch with anyone?
Neither Jarman nor Norman confirmed that it was Oswald who was in the lunchroom at the time they came through to get their sandwiches: They couldn't remember.
Too bad every witness wasn't decked out with stop watches, tape recorders, photographic memories, unassailable honesty, and cameras.
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Neither Jarman nor Norman confirmed that it was Oswald who was in the lunchroom at the time they came through to get their sandwiches: They couldn't remember.
Too bad every witness wasn't decked out with stop watches, tape recorders, photographic memories, unassailable honesty, and cameras.
Correct.
Would you agree that it’s dishonest to ignore the contradictions between Fritz’s description of Oswald’s alibi compared to the description of the FBI agents who were present during the interrogation?
And how could Oswald have accurately guessed that Jarman walked through the lunch room with someone if he wasn’t there?
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And how could Oswald have accurately guessed that Jarman walked through the lunch room with someone if he wasn’t there?
How do you know Oswald guessed that? Quoting you: "The interrogation wasn’t audio recorded so we don’t know exactly what Oswald said"
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How do you know Oswald guessed that? Quoting you: "The interrogation wasn’t audio recorded so we don’t know exactly what Oswald said"
In my honest opinion, the written notes by the two FBI agents who were in the room trumps Capt. Fritz’s memory.
Also, at least two people, Charles Givens and William Shelly, saw Oswald alone in the lunch room around noon on November 22. (Givens gave conflicting testimony between November 1963 and April 1964).
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Neither Jarman nor Norman confirmed that it was Oswald who was in the lunchroom at the time they came through to get their sandwiches: They couldn't remember.
Too bad every witness wasn't decked out with stop watches, tape recorders, photographic memories, unassailable honesty, and cameras.
Damn!!.... I wish people could comprehend what they read!! Why are there so damned many illiterates in this forum?
READ what Jarman and Norman said.....They went into the Domino Room to retrieve their lunches at around 12:10... Lee wasn't in the Domino Room at that Time....He told the interrogators that he was eating his lunch ALONE in the Domino room at the time the P. Parade passed by the TSBD. ( The first elements of the parade started passing with sirens wailing before the main parade) Jarman and Norman were out in front of the TSBD from about 12:10 until 12:25.... At 12:25 they decided that it was getting too crowded in front of the TSBD, so they decided to go up to the fifth floor to watch the parade. The passed by the Domino room at about 12:26 and Lee Oswald saw them as they passed by on their way to the west elevator to take them up to the 5th floor. They DID NOT pass THROUGH the Domino room.... Because that room is in the NE corner and there is only one doorway..... There is no entrance and exit doors.
What's so hard to comprehend about that ??
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Correct.
Would you agree that it’s dishonest to ignore the contradictions between Fritz’s description of Oswald’s alibi compared to the description of the FBI agents who were present during the interrogation?
And how could Oswald have accurately guessed that Jarman walked through the lunch room with someone if he wasn’t there?
Sounds more like educated guessing by Oswald, according to your link:
MF Conspiracy-Freak Site
"The first floor lunch room was used by the minority employees: blacks, Mexican-Americans, a mentally handicapped man, and the depository’s one Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald. Along with unionization, the civil rights movement was a major issue for the American Communist Party in the 1960’s. Because he ate there regularly and because there were only a handful of minority employees in the Book Depository, it would have been easy for Oswald to guess who had eaten lunch there."
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Sounds more like educated guessing by Oswald, according to your link:
MF Conspiracy-Freak Site
"The first floor lunch room was used by the minority employees: blacks, Mexican-Americans, a mentally handicapped man, and the depository’s one Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald. Along with unionization, the civil rights movement was a major issue for the American Communist Party in the 1960’s. Because he ate there regularly and because there were only a handful of minority employees in the Book Depository, it would have been easy for Oswald to guess who had eaten lunch there."
Correct but there were witnesses who saw Oswald in the Domino room around or close to noon that day.
Shelley and Givens (although Givens later changed his testimony).
William Shelley, the supervisor of the floor laying crew testified "I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12." (6WH328), as did the building's janitor Eddie Piper who said he saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock." Bugliosi dismisses their accounts by saying that they may have seen Oswald on the first floor but it was probably earlier in the day, ignoring Piper’s statement that he had actually spoken to Oswald about eating lunch (6WH383)!
All those witnesses may have been mistaken about the time but how good was Oswald to have known that someone might corroborate his claim that he came downstairs for lunch?
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Damn!!.... I wish people could comprehend what they read!! Why are there so damned many illiterates in this forum?
READ what Jarman and Norman said.....They went into the Domino Room to retrieve their lunches at around 12:10... Lee wasn't in the Domino Room at that Time....He told the interrogators that he was eating his lunch ALONE in the Domino room at the time the P. Parade passed by the TSBD. ( The first elements of the parade started passing with sirens wailing before the main parade) Jarman and Norman were out in front of the TSBD from about 12:10 until 12:25.... At 12:25 they decided that it was getting too crowded in front of the TSBD, so they decided to go up to the fifth floor to watch the parade. The passed by the Domino room at about 12:26 and Lee Oswald saw them as they passed by on their way to the west elevator to take them up to the 5th floor. They DID NOT pass THROUGH the Domino room.... Because that room is in the NE corner and there is only one doorway..... There is no entrance and exit doors.
What's so hard to comprehend about that ??
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
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Correct but there were witnesses who saw Oswald in the Domino room around or close to noon that day.
Shelley and Givens (although Givens later changed his testimony).
William Shelley, the supervisor of the floor laying crew testified "I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12." (6WH328), as did the building's janitor Eddie Piper who said he saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock." Bugliosi dismisses their accounts by saying that they may have seen Oswald on the first floor but it was probably earlier in the day, ignoring Piper’s statement that he had actually spoken to Oswald about eating lunch (6WH383)!
All those witnesses may have been mistaken about the time but how good was Oswald to have known that someone might corroborate his claim that he came downstairs for lunch?
I think Oswald was 'winging it' from the get-go.
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The only reason for Oswald to be guessing would be to somehow establish an alibi for the time of the shooting. But what would be the purpose for him to somehow concoct an alibi for where he was some 5 minutes prior to the shooting?
Why try and make up an alibi by guessing about something that happened approx 5 minutes prior to the shooting and to just name some people he "guessed" could have been there? None of it makes any sense. Even more so, because it would be utterly stupid to tell this story, if it never happened in the first place, and he had no reasonable expectation of Norman and/or Jarman confirming it.
This whole "he could have guessed it" BS goes nowhere. It has been dreamed up by LNs who can not give a plausible explanation for Norman and Jarman being were Oswald said they were at the time he said they were.
It was possible to see the area of the shipping department behind the elevators through the door opening of the Domino room. Anybody who has seen a diagram of the first floor should know this. In fact, you could see all the way to the other side of the building, where the stairs were. As we know that Norman and Jarman did in fact leave their position on Elm Street, prior to the motorcade's arrivale, and walked on Houston to the back of the building, in order to enter it and take the elevator to the 5th floor, a far more credible explanation for Oswald's statement is that he was indeed in the Domino room at around 12:25, when he saw both men enter the building and walking towards the elevators. He saw them but they just didn't see him. What was written in the various reports were not Oswald's words verbatim, but distorted recollections from people who. most likely, had no first hand knowledge of the lay out of the building.
And Chapman, if you are going to use a photo, at least try to use one from the Domino room and not the 2nd floor lunchroom!
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In my honest opinion, the written notes by the two FBI agents who were in the room trumps Capt. Fritz’s memory.
Also, at least two people, Charles Givens and William Shelly, saw Oswald alone in the lunch room around noon on November 22. (Givens gave conflicting testimony between November 1963 and April 1964).
Being seen downstairs around noon does not preclude Oswald making it back upstairs with plenty of time to spare for him to do what he said he didn't do.
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The only reason for Oswald to be guessing would be to somehow establish an alibi for the time of the shooting. But what would be the purpose for him to somehow concoct an alibi from where he was some 5 minutes prior to the shooting?
Why try and make up an alibi by guessing about something that happened approx 5 minutes prior to the shooting and to just name some people he "guessed" could have been there? None of it makes any sense. Even more so, because it would be utterly stupid to tell this story, if it never happened in the first place, and he had no reasonable expectation of Norman and/or Jarman confirming it.
This whole "he could have guessed it" BS goes nowhere. It has been dreamed up by LNs who can not give a plausible explanation for Norman and Jarman being were Oswald said they were at the time he said they were.
It was possible to see the area of the shipping department behind the elevators through the door opening of the Domino room. Anybody who has seen a diagram of the first floor should know this. In fact, you could see all the way to the other side of the building, where the stairs were. As we know that Norman and Jarman did in fact leave their position on Elm Street, prior to the motorcade's arrivale, and walked on Houston to the back of the building, in order to enter it and take the elevator to the 5th floor, a far more credible explanation for Oswald's statement is that he was indeed in the Domino room at around 12:25, when he saw both men enter the building and walking towards the elevators. He saw them but they just didn't see him. What was written in the various reports were not Oswald's words verbatim, but distorted recollections from people who. most likely, had no first hand knowledge of the lay out of the building.
And Chapman, if you are going to use a photo, at least try to use one from the Domino room and not the 2nd floor lunchroom!
Say please
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Oswald have to "guess" about Jarman and Norman being together? :D
Anyone looking out the south facade of the building would have seen them together. And they ended up arriving at the same moment just beneath the SN window
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Being seen downstairs around noon does not preclude Oswald making it back upstairs with plenty of time to spare for him to do what he said he didn't do.
Being seen downstairs around noon does not preclude Oswald making it back upstairs
True... he could have gotten to the 6th floor in 5 minutes or so....
But here's the problem (which is why this story, along with Carolyn Arnold's statements, were ignored/dismissed/buried), according to witnesses there was movement in the 6th floor window at about 15 minutes prior to the shots. In other words, at 12:15.... Kinda difficult to explain if Oswald was in the Domino room at around 12:25, right?
So, maybe he didn't do what he said he didn't do after all..... Unless you have some persuasive evidence to prove he did?
Well, do you have it?
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Oswald have to "guess" about Jarman and Norman being together? :D
Anyone looking out the south facade of the building would have seen them together. And they ended up arriving at the same moment just beneath the SN window
Seems to me that you've never actually been to the building because where Norman and Jarman stood they could not have been seen by somebody on the 6th floor unless that person's torso was hanging out of the window.
And pray tell, how did Oswald guess, that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building?
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Being seen downstairs around noon does not preclude Oswald making it back upstairs
True... he could have gotten to the 6th floor in 5 minutes or so....
But here's the problem (which is why this story, along with Carolyn Arnold's statements, were ignored/dismissed/buried), according to witnesses there was movement in the 6th floor window at about 15 minutes prior to the shots. In other words, at 12:15.... Kinda difficult to explain if Oswald was in the Domino room at around 12:25, right?
So, maybe he didn't do what he said he didn't do after all..... Unless you have some persuasive evidence to prove he did?
Well, do you have it?
Carolyn Arnold never gave a consistent time for her exit from the TSBD. on 11/26 she told the FBI that it was at 12:15 or maybe just before. Four months later, she said she went outside about 12:25. In 1978, Earl Golz reported that Arnold said she left at about 12:25. But, at about the same time, she was telling Tony Summers that she made her way outside "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination" and "about 12:15." This makes her statements a bad choice for trying to pin down Oswald's whereabouts at a specific time.
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Carolyn Arnold's never gave a consistent time for her exit from the TSBD. on 11/26 she told the FBI that it was at 12:15 or maybe just before. Four months later, she said she went outside about 12:25. In 1978, Earl Golz reported that Arnold said she left at about 12:25. But, at about the same time, she was telling Tony Summers that she made her way outside "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination" and "about 12:15." This makes her statements a bad choice for trying to pin down Oswald's whereabouts at a specific time.
Carolyn Arnold's never gave a consistent time for her exit from the TSBD.
So what? Time estimates are seldom perfect (isn't that what you guys constantly are telling us?), but the fact remains that Arnold confirmed to the FBI twice that she saw Oswald prior to the shooting, between 12:15 and 12:25 and stuck to her story. This is relevant because witnesses reported movement in the 6th floor window from 12:15 onwards. In a normal murder investigation such a witness would not be ignored and dismissed out of hand.
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Seems to me that you've never actually been to the building because where Norman and Jarman stood they could not have been seen by somebody on the 6th floor unless that person's torso was hanging out of the window.
Where in front of the Building do you think they were standing? In the Doorway Forey? They were to the West and across the street.
And pray tell, how did Oswald guess, that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building?
Oswald didn't "guess" (at least in the form of a statement or utterance) "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building".
You agree, though, that Jarman and Norman ended up together beneath the SN window before the assassination?
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Seems to me that you've never actually been to the building because where Norman and Jarman stood they could not have been seen by somebody on the 6th floor unless that person's torso was hanging out of the window.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
JohnM
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Where in front of the Building do you think they were standing? In the Doorway Foray? They were to the West and across the street.
Oswald didn't "guess" (at least in the form of a statement or utterance) "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building".
You agree, though, that Jarman and Norman ended up together beneath the SN window before the assassination?
They were to the West and across the street.
Across what street?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.
Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?
Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.
They were on the sidewalk directly in front of the building and out of sight from the 6th floor window.
Oswald didn't "guess" (at least in the form of a statement or utterance) "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building".
He didn't? That's strange, because some LNs, like John Mytton, have been claiming exactly that. But if you're right, and I think you are, how did Oswald know that Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building (as we know they did) if he wasn't there to see them?
You agree, though, that Jarman and Norman ended up together beneath the SN window before the assassination?
Yes. It's meaningless
Do you agree that Norman and Jarman entered the shipping department of the TSBD through the back door, to take the elevator to the 5th floor around 5 minutes prior to the shots being fired?
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Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
JohnM
Irrelevant
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He didn't? That's strange, because some LNs, like John Mytton, have been claiming exactly that.
Exactly what did I claim? Cite?
JohnM
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Exactly what did I claim? Cite?
JohnM
You were idiotic enough to claim that Oswald saw Norman and Jarman on the sidewalk in front of the TSBB from the 6th floor window and that he saw both men walking down to the back of the building on Houston street, and that he guessed they had entered the back of the TSBD.
Do you now deny you claimed this?
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Oswald didn't "guess" (at least in the form of a statement or utterance) "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building".
He didn't? That's strange, because some LNs, like John Mytton, have been claiming exactly that. But if you're right, and I think you are, how did Oswald know that Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building (as we know they did) if he wasn't there to see them?
Oswald never said he saw "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building".
You agree, though, that Jarman and Norman ended up together beneath the SN window before the assassination?
Yes. It's meaningless
Oswald's in the SN waiting for the President to arrive and later -- having survived arrest -- he pulls out of the hat the names of the two men who were together and were beneath his window? Also he knows Williams wasn't originally with Norman and Jarman (how did Oswald know that?).
Do you agree that Norman and Jarman entered the shipping department of the TSBD through the back door, to take the elevator to the 5th floor around 5 minutes prior to the shots being fired?
Even if they did, they didn't see Oswald. And if the line-of-sight was so restricted, it's just as unlikely someone in the Domino Room could see them.
Where's the statement or utterance from Oswald ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
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You were idiotic enough to claim that Oswald saw Norman and Jarman on the sidewalk in front of the TSBB from the 6th floor window and that he saw both men walking down to the back of the building on Houston street, and that he guessed they had entered the back of the TSBD.
Do you now deny you claimed this?
Why are you and Otto so Angry, calm down and let's have a civilized conversation.
Brennan saw Oswald sitting on the window sill so he obviously could check out who was below, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman leave and go towards Houston and nobody has yet provided any line of sight evidence that this scenario was impossible.
JohnM
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Oswald never said he saw "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building".
Oswald's in the SN waiting for the President to arrive and later -- having survived arrest -- he pulls out of the hat the names of the two men who were together and were beneath his window? Also he knows Williams wasn't originally with Norman and Jarman (how did Oswald know that?).
Even if they did, they didn't see Oswald. And if the line-of-sight was so restricted, it's just as unlikely someone in the Domino Room could see them.
Where's the statement or utterance from Oswald ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
Oswald never said he saw "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
Did I say he did? The fact is that we don't know what he said exactly as there is no verbatim record of what he said and the reports contradict eachother. The only constant is that Oswald told his interrogators that, while he was in the Domino room, he saw "Junior" and another man, just prior to the shots being fired. Low and behold, Jarman (known as Junior) and Norman did enter the back of the TSBD about five minutes prior to the assassination and Oswald could have seen them (and in my opinion did) from the Domino room.
Oswald's in the SN waiting for the President to arrive and later -- having survived arrest -- he pulls out of the hat the names of the two men who were together and were beneath his window? Also he knows Williams wasn't originally with Norman and Jarman (how did Oswald know that?).
I noticed you failed to answer my question. Very telling indeed! And where did you get from the Oswald knew Williams wasn't with Norman and Jarman? Are you making this stuff up?
Where's the statement or utterance from Oswald ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
Oswald never said any of that. All he basically said was that he saw Junior and another man while he was eating his lunch. The available evidence tells us that if Oswald was in the Domino room, to eat his lunch, he could have seen Jarman and Norman entering the building from the back and walking towards the elevator. How does the evidence tell us this? Simply because both Jarman and Norman confirmed they were there at exactly that time that Oswald claimed he was in the Domino room. I don't believe in coincidence, do you?
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Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Can't you comprehend the testimony? Jarman said that he and Norman Were outside in front of the TSBD until about 12:20 / 12:25.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Elsewhere Jarman said that they arrived on the 5th floor at 12:28.... That would have placed them near the Domino room at about 12:26, and that's when Lee saw them walking by.
-
Why are you and Otto so Angry, calm down and let's have a civilized conversation.
Brennan saw Oswald sitting on the window sill so he obviously could check out who was below, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman leave and go towards Houston and nobody has yet provided any line of sight evidence that this scenario was impossible.
JohnM
I am not angry. Stop the song and dance crap and answer my question.
Brennan was across the street on the wall. Norman and Jarman were not. I have stood at the window next to the sniper's nest and looked down. There is no way you can see anybody who is on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD.
Now answer my question. Did you make that claim or not?
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Why are you and Otto so Angry, calm down and let's have a civilized conversation.
Brennan saw Oswald sitting on the window sill so he obviously could check out who was below, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman leave and go towards Houston and nobody has yet provided any line of sight evidence that this scenario was impossible.
JohnM
calm down and let's have a civilized conversation.
:D Yer joking ... I don't believe it's possible to have a rational conversation with you Mr. M. You don't even recognize that Bill Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers. ...And that most certainly was NOT Lee Oswald.
-
calm down and let's have a civilized conversation.
:D Yer joking ... I don't believe it's possible to have a rational conversation with you Mr. M. You don't even recognize that Bill Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers. ...And that most certainly was NOT Lee Oswald.
I don't believe it's possible to have a rational conversation with you Mr. M.
Indeed
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I have stood at the window next to the sniper's nest and looked down.
Have you got a photo? So you were only standing at the window but according to Brennan, Oswald was sitting on the window sill, which would have placed him much closer to Elm street and allowed a much better view of what was below. And from Oswald's position sitting on the window sill with only a slight lean, Oswald could have seen directly below just like you said above, "unless that person's torso was hanging out of the window"
(https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/arlington/jfk_exhibit-4_5a3ff0b4-9e02-9e67-c30b87936c6eec3a.jpg)
JohnM
-
How did Mr Oswald know no one else had been in the Domino Room at 12:26? Could he see in there from the sixth floor?
-
Have you got a photo? So you were only standing at the window but according to Brennan, Oswald was sitting on the window sill, which would have placed him much closer to Elm street and allowed a much better view of what was below. And from Oswald's position sitting on the window sill with only a slight lean, Oswald could have seen directly below just like you said above, "unless that person's torso was hanging out of the window"
(https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/arlington/jfk_exhibit-4_5a3ff0b4-9e02-9e67-c30b87936c6eec3a.jpg)
JohnM
Still desperately trying to avoid answering my question? Why am I not surprised?
And from Oswald's position sitting on the window sill with only a slight lean, Oswald could have seen directly below just like you said above, "unless that person's torso was hanging out of the window"
A slight lean? You clearly have never been there. Brennan was sitting on a wall two streets away from the TSBD.
Norman and Jarman were on the sidewalk next to the TSBD. It doesn't take a genius to work out the difference, which is probably why you seem to be struggling. If Norman and Jarman were right in front of the TSBD, there is no way anybody could have seen them from the 6th floor window. But even if they could have been seen, it would be insignificant, unless you're trying to concoct a story about Oswald guessing about their subsequent actions and actually getting it right.
If that's what you are trying to say, why do you hesitate to answer my question?
-
calm down and let's have a civilized conversation.
:D Yer joking ... I don't believe it's possible to have a rational conversation with you Mr. M. You don't even recognize that Bill Whaley said that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers. ...And that most certainly was NOT Lee Oswald.
Right on queue, whenever your team mates are struggling out you pop to give your 2 cents, and this time with an attempted diversion, nice.
JohnM
-
A slight lean? You clearly have never been there.
Even if you were there, the photo I posted shows you could never get even close to see what Oswald could see. Try again and repeating that you were there doesn't prove your speculation.
(https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/arlington/jfk_exhibit-4_5a3ff0b4-9e02-9e67-c30b87936c6eec3a.jpg)
JohnM
-
Right on queue, whenever your team mates are struggling out you pop to give your 2 cents, and this time with an attempted diversion, nice.
JohnM
If I say 'a penny for your thoughts' and you put your two-cents worth in, who gets the extra penny? -Steven Wright
-
Even if you were there, the photo I posted shows you could never get even close to see what Oswald could see. Try again and repeating that you were there doesn't prove your speculation.
(https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/arlington/jfk_exhibit-4_5a3ff0b4-9e02-9e67-c30b87936c6eec3a.jpg)
JohnM
Stop behaving as an idiot. The one speculating based on a worthless photo that proves nothing is you. But hey, what else is new?
I was at the window next to the sealed of area of the snipers nest. If anything there would have been a better view of what/who was on the sidewalk beneath the s/n window and even from there I couldn't see the sidewalk. So your photo only shows you have a vivid imagination and and pretty nosensical narrative to defend about Oswald seeing Jarman and Norman right beneath him and guessing they went to the back of the building together, entered through the back door and walked towards the elevators (which is exactly what they did).
When you have to bend the facts and the truth to tell a false story, you've already lost the argument. You should know this by now. You been destroyed so many times before and still you do not learn..... Which is exactly why Walt is correct.
-
The only reason for Oswald to be guessing would be to somehow establish an alibi for the time of the shooting. But what would be the purpose for him to somehow concoct an alibi for where he was some 5 minutes prior to the shooting?
Why try and make up an alibi by guessing about something that happened approx 5 minutes prior to the shooting and to just name some people he "guessed" could have been there? None of it makes any sense. Even more so, because it would be utterly stupid to tell this story, if it never happened in the first place, and he had no reasonable expectation of Norman and/or Jarman confirming it.
This whole "he could have guessed it" BS goes nowhere. It has been dreamed up by LNs who can not give a plausible explanation for Norman and Jarman being were Oswald said they were at the time he said they were.
It was possible to see the area of the shipping department behind the elevators through the door opening of the Domino room. Anybody who has seen a diagram of the first floor should know this. In fact, you could see all the way to the other side of the building, where the stairs were. As we know that Norman and Jarman did in fact leave their position on Elm Street, prior to the motorcade's arrivale, and walked on Houston to the back of the building, in order to enter it and take the elevator to the 5th floor, a far more credible explanation for Oswald's statement is that he was indeed in the Domino room at around 12:25, when he saw both men enter the building and walking towards the elevators. He saw them but they just didn't see him. What was written in the various reports were not Oswald's words verbatim, but distorted recollections from people who. most likely, had no first hand knowledge of the lay out of the building.
And Chapman, if you are going to use a photo, at least try to use one from the Domino room and not the 2nd floor lunchroom!
Bravo! Thumb1:
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Being seen downstairs around noon does not preclude Oswald making it back upstairs with plenty of time to spare for him to do what he said he didn't do.
Never said those witnesses exonerate Oswald. Just noting that the WC and some LN'ers try extra hard to ignore the evidence that corroborates Oswald coming downstairs around noon. Maybe he went back to the Sixth Floor by 12:25. I don't know but it's very curious that the Warren Commission chose Fritz's recollection over other evidence that supported Oswald's claim of coming downstairs for lunch while the parade was happening...
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How did Mr Oswald know no one else had been in the Domino Room at 12:26? Could he see in there from the sixth floor?
Mr Oswald's claimed sighting of Messrs Norman and Jarman at the rear of the first floor shortly before the assassination is significant not just for whom he claims he saw (Messrs Norman and Jarman) but for whom he claims he did NOT see (anyone else). The fact that he mentions only these two tells us that he knows the rear of the first floor was completely devoid of other people at this time.
How can he know this? How can he be confident that there wasn't in fact a bunch of guys hanging out back there, any one of whom can now blow his claim to smithereens?
The answer to this question is the same as the answer to the question, 'How does he know no else was eating lunch in the Domino Room at 12:26?'
Because he was in the Domino Room at the rear of the first floor at 12:26.
Thumb1:
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Never said those witnesses exonerate Oswald. Just noting that the WC and some LN'ers try extra hard to ignore the evidence that corroborates Oswald coming downstairs around noon. Maybe he went back to the Sixth Floor by 12:25. I don't know but it's very curious that the Warren Commission chose Fritz's recollection over other evidence that supported Oswald's claim of coming downstairs for lunch while the parade was happening...
Mr Oswald's claims were systematically distorted.................
-Bought a coke in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade ---------> Bought a coke in the second-floor lunchroom at the time of the search of the building by DPD
-Ate lunch alone in domino room but saw Hank & Junior passing through ----------> Ate lunch with Hank & Junior
-Went outside to watch P. Parade ----------> Stayed in the domino room eating lunch for P. Parade
-Was beside Mr Shelley out front for P. Parade -----------> Was with Mr Shelley out front several minutes after the shooting
-Had encounter with cop and Mr Truly at front entrance -------------> Had encounter with cop and Mr Truly in second-floor lunchroom
Thankfully, the unearthing in 2019 of the Hosty draft interrogation report lets us compare what's in it with what's in the official Bookhout report for that same first interrogation session......... and shake our heads at the sheer brazen mendacity of these 'investigating' crooks!
-
Oswald never said he saw "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
Did I say he did?
"And pray tell, how did Oswald guess, that both men, after leaving the
front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter
the back of the building?"
Well, I guess you didn't say Oswald mouthed it, but you somehow know he guessed it. Or you really don't know. And your question was to do with me having to come up with some rationale for "how did Oswald guess, that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building?"
The fact is that we don't know what he said exactly as there is no verbatim record of what he said and the reports contradict eachother.
So your interpretation is no better than anyone else's.
The only constant is that Oswald told his interrogators that, while he was in the Domino room, he saw "Junior" and another man, just prior to the shots being fired.
Where does Oswald say words to the effect "just prior to the shots being fired"? And where does he say words to the effect that he saw Norman and Jarman take the elevator?
Low and behold, Jarman (known as Junior) and Norman did enter the back of the TSBD about five minutes prior to the assassination and Oswald could have seen them (and in my opinion did) from the Domino room.
Sure. But it's all a house of cards based entirely on your reading between the lines.
Oswald's in the SN waiting for the President to arrive and later -- having survived arrest -- he pulls out of the hat the names of the two men who were together and were beneath his window? Also he knows Williams wasn't originally with Norman and Jarman (how did Oswald know that?).
I noticed you failed to answer my question.
What question was that?
Very telling indeed! And where did you get from the Oswald knew Williams wasn't with Norman and Jarman? Are you making this stuff up?
Maybe I'm getting it from the same place you got Oswald knowing (since he never uttered it) this ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
Oswald never said any of that.
Your are right. Oswald never said ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
All he basically said was that he saw Junior and another man while he was eating his lunch.
Oswald only needed to know that most of his coworkers said they were having their lunch early so they could out to see the President. When he concocting his alibi after being arrested, that became a good basis for assuming the Domino Room would be empty. Oswald recalls seeing or hearing Norman and Jarman together, either on the street or under the SN window. Just to add a touch of authenticity, Oswald claimed (although he had brought no lunch to work that day) to have eaten lunch with the two ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"In talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed,
he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One
of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name
he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich and some fruit and that was
the only package he had brought with him to work and denied that he had brought
the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described
one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.
He said his lunch consisted of cheese, fruit, and apples, and was the only package
he had with him when he went to work."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Thomas J. Kelly
This doesn't sound like Oswald was anywhere near a lower floor ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation.
So I didn't interrupt too much, but he [Lee Oswald] said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say
whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see
what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started
to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers
that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we
will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he
wouldn't tell what happened then."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Harry D. Holmes; April 2, 1964
The available evidence tells us that if Oswald was in the Domino room, to eat his lunch, he could have seen Jarman and Norman entering the building from the back and walking towards the elevator. How does the evidence tell us this? Simply because both Jarman and Norman confirmed they were there at exactly that time that Oswald claimed he was in the Domino room. I don't believe in coincidence, do you?
So now you have Oswald collaborating some "exact time". The fact is that Oswald's "icing" in the form of him "eating lunch" with Norman and Jarman proves that he didn't see them when they were on the first floor prior to going to the fifth. Knowing Norman and Jarman had done so would have been a useful thing for Oswald to state as clearly and precisely as he could, and repeatedly so.
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvXvkk89/TSBD-WIDE-SIDWALKS.png)
Wide sidewalk
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvyhMHPw/TSBD-WIDE-SIDEWALKS-NARROW-LDG.png)
Narrow ledges (look up, look way up)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnBFBGm6/Kneel-and-peek-at-street.png)
Easy enough to pop one's head over the ledge unless one has a fear of heights
-
The fact is that Oswald's "icing" in the form of him "eating lunch" with Norman and Jarman proves that he didn't see them when they were on the first floor prior to going to the fifth.
Oh dear oh dear, you poor Gullibles just can't get your story straight, can you?
The Ingenious Davidson Explanation of Mr Oswald's citing of Messrs Norman & Jarman is as follows:
-Mr Oswald manages to see Messrs Norman & Jarman leave the sidewalk and turn north on Houston
-A couple of minutes later he hears them a floor below
-Putting two and two together, he concludes that they must have re-entered the building by the back door.
-Later, in custody, he craftily uses this to place himself at the rear of the first floor at the time of their presumed re-entry en route to the fifth floor
Now for the Ingenuous Organ Supplementary Explanation:
-Mr Oswald, electing to completely screw up his crafty exploitation of presumed facts, adds the crazily unnecessary detail that Messrs Norman & Jarman ate lunch with him at this time!
:D
-
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Let's see what an honest line of questioning might have elicited, shall we?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated in interrogation that he saw you and Hank Norman passing through at the rear of the first floor. Did you and Hank Norman pass through together at the rear of the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes sir, we did.
Mr. BALL - When was this?
Mr. JARMAN - Less than five minutes before the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BALL - Was anyone else with you at the time?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people at the rear of the first floor at the time?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - If Lee Oswald was at the domino room, would it have been possible for him to have seen you without you seeing him?
Mr. JARMAN - I guess so, yes sir.
Thumb1:
-
"And pray tell, how did Oswald guess, that both men, after leaving the
front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter
the back of the building?"
Well, I guess you didn't say Oswald mouthed it, but you somehow know he guessed it. Or you really don't know. And your question was to do with me having to come up with some rationale for "how did Oswald guess, that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building?"
I actually don't know and it is not my narrative. In the past several LNs have claimed that Oswald saw both men in front of the building from the 6th floor window and guessed that they subsequently went to the back of the building together and walked towards the elevators. In my estimation none of it actually happened. Oswald just saw Junior and another man enter the building through the doorway of the Domino room
So your interpretation is no better than anyone else's.
What interpretation would that be? I rely on the facts, which are that Norman and Jarman confirmed that they entered the back of the building around 5 minutes prior to the shots, to go to the 5th floor, and the only common denominator in all reports on Oswald's interrogation, which is that Oswald said he saw Junior and another man while having lunch in the Domino room.
Where does Oswald say words to the effect "just prior to the shots being fired"? And where does he say words to the effect that he saw Norman and Jarman take the elevator?
Stop playing games. We will never know what Oswald said verbatim due to the total incompetence of the interrogators. All we have is his comment that, while eating lunch in the Domino room, he saw Junior and another man walk through the room. If you want to argue that he saw this after the shots were fired, that's fine by me, but it would be completely ridiculous.
Sure. But it's all a house of cards based entirely on your reading between the lines.
Really? What lines am I reading between. Please do me a favor and bring the "house of cards" down with a logical, peruasive alternative version.... Go on then
What question was that?
Go back and find out for yourself. Stop playing games and wasting time by pretending to be ignorant.
Maybe I'm getting it from the same place you got Oswald knowing (since he never uttered it) this ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
So what's your point? My point is that what little Oswald did say (according to the reports) lines up with the fact that Jarman and Norman confirm they were exactly where Oswald said they were.
Your are right. Oswald never said ...
- "that both men, after leaving the front of the building would stay together, walk down Houston and enter the back of the building."
- "Norman and Jarman entered the back of the building"
Again, what is your point? Oswald didn't say it (and we don't even know that for sure) so it didn't happen. Is that your argument? Really
Oswald only needed to know that most of his coworkers said they were having their lunch early so they could out to see the President. When he concocting his alibi after being arrested, that became a good basis for assuming the Domino Room would be empty. Oswald recalls seeing or hearing Norman and Jarman together, either on the street or under the SN window. Just to add a touch of authenticity, Oswald claimed (although he had brought no lunch to work that day) to have eaten lunch with the two
...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"In talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed,
he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One
of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name
he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich and some fruit and that was
the only package he had brought with him to work and denied that he had brought
the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described
one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.
He said his lunch consisted of cheese, fruit, and apples, and was the only package
he had with him when he went to work."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Thomas J. Kelly
This doesn't sound like Oswald was anywhere near a lower floor ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation.
So I didn't interrupt too much, but he [Lee Oswald] said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say
whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see
what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started
to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers
that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we
will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he
wouldn't tell what happened then."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Harry D. Holmes; April 2, 1964
Total and utter BS based on selective reading of non-verbatim reports that were written after the fact and after Oswald's death. The most pathetic argument is that Oswald was trying to concoct an alibi, when we are in fact talking about events that took place about 5 minutes prior to the shooting. There was no alibi there!
So now you have Oswald collaborating some "exact time". The fact is that Oswald's "icing" in the form of him "eating lunch" with Norman and Jarman proves that he didn't see them when they were on the first floor prior to going to the fifth. Knowing Norman and Jarman had done so would have been a useful thing for Oswald to state as clearly and precisely as he could, and repeatedly so.
I don't have Oswald collaborating some "exact time" whatever that means. Even less do I understand how the hell Oswald allegedly "eating lunch" with Norman and Jarman somehow proves that he didn't see them on them on the first floor. I really would look forward (and enjoy) to you explaining how this proves what you claim it does.
The biggest flaw in your story is that Oswald somehow must have known that Norman and Jarman were on the 5th floor when the shots are fired. There is not a shred of evidence for that and it's not really a flaw, it's really something you just made up to "support" your narrative.
Perhaps next time try to stick with the known facts and work from there instead of creating your own little fairytale
Three sets of facts here;
1. Norman and Jarman have confirmed that approx 5 minutes prior to the shots they entered the TSBD through the back door and took the elevator to the 5th floor
2. Anybody walking in the area of the first floor next to where the elevators and the stairs are can be seen through the door opening of the Domino room
3. The only common denominator of all the reports on Oswald's interrogation is that he claim to be eating his lunch in the Domino room when he saw Junior (aka Jarman) and another man (Norman) walk through the room.
Try to work it out from there and let us know what you come up with.
-
Mr Oswald's claimed sighting of Messrs Norman and Jarman at the rear of the first floor shortly before the assassination is significant not just for whom he claims he saw (Messrs Norman and Jarman) but for whom he claims he did NOT see (anyone else). The fact that he mentions only these two tells us that he knows the rear of the first floor was completely devoid of other people at this time.
How can he know this? How can he be confident that there wasn't in fact a bunch of guys hanging out back there, any one of whom can now blow his claim to smithereens?
The answer to this question is the same as the answer to the question, 'How does he know no else was eating lunch in the Domino Room at 12:26?'
Because he was in the Domino Room at the rear of the first floor at 12:26.
Thumb1:
The fact that he mentions only these two tells us that he knows the rear of the first floor was completely devoid of other people at this time.
That's an astute observation Mr. Ford...... I had never realized that the fact that Lee said that he ate his lunch alone in the Domino room, means that he KNEW that nobody else was there at that time. Lee had to have been there because that is he only way he could have known that there was nobody in the Domino room.
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvXvkk89/TSBD-WIDE-SIDWALKS.png)
Wide sidewalk
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvyhMHPw/TSBD-WIDE-SIDEWALKS-NARROW-LDG.png)
Narrow ledges (look up, look way up)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnBFBGm6/Kneel-and-peek-at-street.png)
Easy enough to pop one's head over the ledge unless one has a fear of heights
Another one who has never been to the TSBD! All theory and no first hand knowledge.
To look straight down to the sidewalk from the 6th floor your entire upper body would need to be hanging out of the window.
-
Oh dear oh dear, you poor Gullibles just can't get your story straight, can you?
The Ingenious Davidson Explanation of Mr Oswald's citing of Messrs Norman & Jarman is as follows:
-Mr Oswald manages to see Messrs Norman & Jarman leave the sidewalk and turn north on Houston
-A couple of minutes later he hears them a floor below
-Putting two and two together, he concludes that they must have re-entered the building by the back door.
-Later, in custody, he craftily uses this to place himself at the rear of the first floor at the time of their presumed re-entry en route to the fifth floor
Now for the Ingenuous Organ Supplementary Explanation:
-Mr Oswald, electing to completely screw up his crafty exploitation of presumed facts, adds the crazily unnecessary detail that Messrs Norman & Jarman ate lunch with him at this time!
:D
And even worse, by making such a "false claim" he at best ends up with having an alibi for where he was 5 minutes or so prior to the shooting..... Yeah, that makes sense, right...
-
Oh dear oh dear, you poor Gullibles just can't get your story straight, can you?
The Ingenious Davidson Explanation of Mr Oswald's citing of Messrs Norman & Jarman is as follows:
-Mr Oswald manages to see Messrs Norman & Jarman leave the sidewalk and turn north on Houston
-A couple of minutes later he hears them a floor below
-Putting two and two together, he concludes that they must have re-entered the building by the back door.
-Later, in custody, he craftily uses this to place himself at the rear of the first floor at the time of their presumed re-entry en route to the fifth floor
Now for the Ingenuous Organ Supplementary Explanation:
-Mr Oswald, electing to completely screw up his crafty exploitation of presumed facts, adds the crazily unnecessary detail that Messrs Norman & Jarman ate lunch with him at this time!
:D
Oswald said he went to lunch at noon or shortly thereafter. No one in the Domino Room saw Oswald there. There's no evidence he brought a lunch. There's no statement from Oswald that he saw Norman and Jarman enter the back of the first floor, that Oswald saw them while he was in the Domino Room and that the time was 12:25.
-
From Oswald's sniper's nest window there was no obstructions of his view of the footpath.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqBq3VHR/01-Texas-School-Book-Depository.jpg)
And considering Brennan said Oswald was sitting on the window sill, in the following crime scene photo taken several feet inside from the window, the distance from the window frame to the edge with an unobstructed view to the ground was a little over half a brick, so Oswald from his position wouldn't even have to lean very much if at all, to see who was on the footpath.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49682/m1/1/med_res/)
Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Btw I have never seen such incompetent self serving arguments than what is on display here.
Case Closed!
JohnM
-
The biggest flaw in your story is that Oswald somehow must have known that Norman and Jarman were on the 5th floor when the shots are fired. There is not a shred of evidence for that and it's not really a flaw, it's really something you just made up to "support" your narrative.
It's worse than that. How did Perfidious Assassin Mr Oswald know that Messrs Norman and Jarman were the only two men to come up to 5? For all Perfidious Assassin Mr Oswald knew, Messrs e.g. Lovelady and Arce and Dougherty could have come up with them and taken up positions at more westerly windows.
Now the Davidson answer is: Perfidious Assassin Mr Oswald saw Messrs Norman and Jarman leave the sidewalk and turn north on Houston. Therefore he made a reasonable assumption that they came up alone.
Very well. Let's run with this explanation..............
Where now does this leave the Warren Gullibles in their SIMULTANEOUS enthusiastic embrace of the claim that Mr Oswald went from saying he saw Messrs Norman and Jarman "passing through" to saying he actually ate lunch with them?
I'll tell you where it leaves them-------------------spluttering in confusion and self-contradiction. Because you can't with a straight face claim that Mr Oswald BOTH craftily crafted a way of putting himself at the rear of the first floor ca. 12:26 AND stupidly botched this brilliant scam by adding a claim that he KNEW did not fit with the facts he had so craftily surmised (that Messrs Norman & Jarman did NOT linger on the first floor en route to the fifth).
The only way the Davidson Explanation holds good is if those pushing the Davidson Explanation concede that those present at the interrogations who reported Mr Oswald as saying he ate lunch with Hank & Junior either lied or misunderstood what Mr Oswald actually said. Who wants to go first?
Our thanks to Mr Organ for exposing the shameless heads-I-win-tails-you-lose approach of the Warren Gullibles to the interrogation reports! Thumb1:
-
The fact that he mentions only these two tells us that he knows the rear of the first floor was completely devoid of other people at this time.
That's an astute observation Mr. Ford...... I had never realized that the fact that Lee said that he ate his lunch alone in the Domino room, means that he KNEW that nobody else was there at that time. Lee had to have been there because that is he only way he could have known that there was nobody in the Domino room.
And nobody (other than, momentarily, Messrs Norman & Jarman) at the rear of the first floor Thumb1:
-
The fact that he mentions only these two tells us that he knows the rear of the first floor was completely devoid of other people at this time.
That's an astute observation Mr. Ford...... I had never realized that the fact that Lee said that he ate his lunch alone in the Domino room, means that he KNEW that nobody else was there at that time. Lee had to have been there because that is he only way he could have known that there was nobody in the Domino room.
Oswald knew most of his co-workers were breaking for lunch early because they wanted to see the President. Not a bad basis for assuming the Domino Room would be empty. But Oswald made up this alibi after the assassination. And of all the people in the Depository he claimed to have seen during the lunchtime, Oswald pulls out of his hat the only pair who arrived beneath the SN window. Billy Ray Williams hears the two men talking so Oswald would have heard the same thing.
Oswald knew he got right the part about Norman and Jarman being together. To shift it to the Domino Room, he came up with the tale of eating "a cheese sandwich and some fruit" in their presence. He probably figured some bulky food items might help explain the size of his "lunch bag".
-
Oswald said he went to lunch at noon or shortly thereafter. No one in the Domino Room saw Oswald there.
That's it, Mr Organ, keep partying like it's 2018! :D
Here's what Mr Oswald actually said:
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
-
From Oswald's sniper's nest window there was no obstructions of his view of the footpath.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqBq3VHR/01-Texas-School-Book-Depository.jpg)
And considering Brennan said Oswald was sitting on the window sill, in the following crime scene photo taken several feet inside from the window, the distance from the window frame to the edge with an unobstructed view to the ground was a little over half a brick, so Oswald from his position wouldn't even have to lean very much if at all, to see who was on the footpath.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49682/m1/1/med_res/)
Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Btw I have never seen such incompetent self serving arguments than what is on display here.
Case Closed!
JohnM
Btw I have never seen such incompetent self serving arguments than what is on display here.
You are talking about yourself, right. Yes, I agree.... but it's what I've come to expect from you.
It's beyond hilarious that the second photo you posted completely destroys what you tried to demonstrate with the first one!
And considering Brennan said Oswald was sitting on the window sill, in the following crime scene photo taken several feet inside from the window, the distance from the window frame to the edge with an unobstructed view to the ground was a little over half a brick, so Oswald from his position wouldn't even have to lean very much if at all, to see who was on the footpath.
A half a brick? :D Yeah sure, he would just have to be hanging outside the window to do so...
The second photo shows a car turning onto Elm Street. There is another street running in front of the TSBD to the railway yard and you can't even see that. Half a brick....... pffffffff
And of course, when you are just about to kill the President your main concern would of course be to expose yourself to witnesses in order to see who was standing on the sidewalk just below you....... And that's supposed to make sense?
-
Oswald knew most of his co-workers were breaking for lunch early because they wanted to see the President. Not a bad basis for assuming the Domino Room would be empty.
~Grin~
If he knew that most of his co-workers were breaking for lunch early, then that was a very bad basis for assuming the Domino Room (and the entire rear of the first floor for that matter) would be empty.
-
~Grin~
If he knew that most of his co-workers were breaking for lunch early, then that was a very bad basis for assuming the Domino Room (and the entire rear of the first floor for that matter) would be empty.
Alan,
The whole thing is pathetic. The LNs are desperately trying to disprove the evidence which clearly suggests that Oswald did in fact see Jarman and Norman enter the back of the TSBD from the Domino room. And I really can't figure out why they would make such a spectable of themselves when at best all it does is confirm where Oswald was approx 5 minutes prior to the shots.
-
Btw I have never seen such incompetent self serving arguments than what is on display here.
You are talking about yourself, right. Yes, I disagree....
It's beyond hilarious that the second photo you posted completely destroys what you tried to demonstrate with the first one!
And considering Brennan said Oswald was sitting on the window sill, in the following crime scene photo taken several feet inside from the window, the distance from the window frame to the edge with an unobstructed view to the ground was a little over half a brick, so Oswald from his position wouldn't even have to lean very much if at all, to see who was on the footpath.
A half a brick? :D Yeah sure, he would just have to be hanging outside the window to do so...
And of course, when you are just about to kill the President your main concern would of course be to expose yourself to witnesses in order to see who was standing on the sidewalk just below you....... And that's supposed to make sense?
It's beyond hilarious that the second photo you posted completely destroys what you tried to demonstrate with the first one!
Huh? We can't see the front face of the rear stack of boxes meaning that the camera was to the left of of that front face and Oswald was way over to the right sitting on the window sill. It's no wonder from your alleged view from inside the building and what you claimed to be able to see is so at odds with basic physics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMPkqMTP/rear-snipers-nest-boxex.jpg)
JohnM
-
~Grin~
If he knew that most of his co-workers were breaking for lunch early, then that was a very bad basis for assuming the Domino Room (and the entire rear of the first floor for that matter) would be empty.
I don't know where Oswald went around asking everyone if they were going to be out of the Domino Room. The alibi was ad hoc and post factum. He could even throw in eating food and having lunch with Norman and Jarman.
-
Alan,
The whole thing is pathetic. The LNs are desperately trying to disprove the evidence which clearly suggests that Oswald did in fact see Jarman and Norman enter the back of the TSBD from the Domino room. And I really can't figure out why they would make such a spectable of themselves when at best all it does is confirm where Oswald was approx 5 minutes prior to the shots.
You're quite right, Mr Weidmann, it is pathetic. But there is a reason why the Warren Gullibles need to neutralize the Norman-Jarman sighting.
The motorcade was expected for 12:25. Mr Oswald on the first floor at that time is a disaster for their fairytale!
-
I don't know where Oswald went around asking everyone if they were going to be out of the Domino Room.
Exactly---he didn't, and you goofed by pointing out that at best he can only assume safely that most co-workers would have gone outside by 12:26. And yet here he is correctly describing an empty domino room and an empty rear area of the first floor @ 12:26! Thumb1:
-
That's it, Mr Organ, keep partying like it's 2018! :D
Here's what Mr Oswald actually said:
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
Nice cherry pick. Here's what just two of the officials who heard what Oswald said wrote:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"In talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed,
he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One
of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name
he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich and some fruit and that was
the only package he had brought with him to work and denied that he had brought
the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described
one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.
He said his lunch consisted of cheese, fruit, and apples, and was the only package
he had with him when he went to work."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Thomas J. Kelly
This doesn't sound like Oswald was anywhere near a lower floor ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation.
So I didn't interrupt too much, but he [Lee Oswald] said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say
whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see
what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started
to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers
that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we
will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he
wouldn't tell what happened then."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Harry D. Holmes; April 2, 1964
Notice the Oswald lie: "denied that he had brought the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister"?
-
Huh? We can't see the front face of the rear stack of boxes meaning that the camera was to the left of of that front face and Oswald was way over to the right sitting on the window sill. It's no wonder from your alleged view from inside the building and what you claimed to be able to see is so at odds with basic physics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMPkqMTP/rear-snipers-nest-boxex.jpg)
JohnM
The difference between the location of the camera and where Oswald allegedly was sitting is minimal. The sniper's nest isn't a big place.
The point I was making is two fold; (1) the window of the 6th floor can only open up half way. If Oswald was sitting on the window sill, he would not be able to stick his head out of the window, which is what he needed to do in order to look straight down. The only way he could have done that is by kneeling, like the guys on the 5th floor did. And secondly, the car shown in the picture is turning down Elm street, there is an entire street between that point and the building which you can not see in the picture.
You really need to take a step back and reconsider your entire bogus argument, but knowing you, you won't.
I was there, you never were! All you have is photos and made up stories. Deal with it. The fact that I will never be able to convince you that you are wrong, doesn't mean that you aren't wrong. It just means that you are stubborn and a waste of time.
-
Billy
Bonnie
Ray Williams hears the two men talking so Oswald would have heard the same thing.
::)
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
-
Exactly---he didn't, and you goofed by pointing out that at best he can only assume safely that most co-workers would have gone outside by 12:26."
Being honest is a goof. Maybe in your world.
And yet here he is correctly describing an empty domino room and an empty rear area of the first floor @ 12:26! Thumb1:
No where (even with his "eating lunch" with the two) does Oswald "describe an empty domino room", much less "an empty rear area of the first floor at 12:26".
At this point, you're just trolling. :P
-
I don't know where Oswald went around asking everyone if they were going to be out of the Domino Room. The alibi was ad hoc and post factum. He could even throw in eating food and having lunch with Norman and Jarman.
What alibi are you talking about?
An alibi demostrating where you were 5 minutes prior to the shots is no alibi!
-
Nice cherry pick. Here's what just two of the officials who heard what Oswald said wrote:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"In talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed,
he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One
of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name
he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich and some fruit and that was
the only package he had brought with him to work and denied that he had brought
the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described
one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.
He said his lunch consisted of cheese, fruit, and apples, and was the only package
he had with him when he went to work."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Thomas J. Kelly
This doesn't sound like Oswald was anywhere near a lower floor ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation.
So I didn't interrupt too much, but he [Lee Oswald] said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say
whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see
what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started
to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers
that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we
will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he
wouldn't tell what happened then."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Harry D. Holmes; April 2, 1964
Notice the Oswald lie: "denied that he had brought the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister"?
Golly, you Warren Gullibles really are scared of the draft Hosty report of the first interrogation, aren't you? :D
Here it is again:
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
Now! Question! What was the first thing manual workers in the Depository usually did when they broke for lunch?
-
Nice cherry pick. Here's what just two of the officials who heard what Oswald said wrote:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"In talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed,
he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One
of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name
he did not know. He said he had a cheese sandwich and some fruit and that was
the only package he had brought with him to work and denied that he had brought
the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described
one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy.
He said his lunch consisted of cheese, fruit, and apples, and was the only package
he had with him when he went to work."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Thomas J. Kelly
This doesn't sound like Oswald was anywhere near a lower floor ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation.
So I didn't interrupt too much, but he [Lee Oswald] said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say
whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see
what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started
to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers
that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we
will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he
wouldn't tell what happened then."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
— Harry D. Holmes; April 2, 1964
Notice the Oswald lie: "denied that he had brought the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister"?
~
Notice the Oswald lie: "denied that he had brought the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister"?
What lie would that be exactly?
Did Kelly tell him exactly how long the package was that Frazier and Randle said they had seen? If not, how could Oswald deny the size of the package? Or could it be Kelly just wrote his opinion in his report?
-
Being honest is a goof. Maybe in your world.
No, the goof was that your first and second sentences were logically incompatible with one another! Thumb1:
No where (even with his "eating lunch" with the two) does Oswald "describe an empty domino room", much less "an empty rear area of the first floor at 12:26".
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone" (Bookhout report, 11/23)
He knows to mention only two people he saw in the area: Messrs Norman & Jarman. How does he know there weren't others in a) the domino room b) the rear area of the first floor? Because WE know there weren't.
At this point, you're just trolling. :P
Nah, you're just losing! :)
-
What alibi are you talking about?
An alibi demostrating where you were 5 minutes prior to the shots is no alibi!
So why should anyone believe Oswald was on the first floor during the assassination?
~
Notice the Oswald lie: "denied that he had brought the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister"?
What lie would that be exactly?
Did Kelly tell him exactly how long the package was that Frazier and Randle said they had seen? If not, how could Oswald deny the size of the package? Or could it be Kelly just wrote his opinion in his report?
Oswald wouldn't even admit he placed the package across the back seat. He said it was a lunch bag of some vague size that he kept with him in the front seat. So either Oswald is lying (now what would be his motivation?) or Frazier is,
BTW, you're not still claiming you're not a conspiracy theorist? You have all the authorities lying about everything Oswald said; meanwhile a cop-killer, Presidential assassin and wife-beater gets all the benefit you can muster.
-
No, the goof was that your first and second sentences were logically incompatible with one another! Thumb1:
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone" (Bookhout report, 11/23)
"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room
at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro
employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one
of these employees was called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose
name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."
He knows to mention only two people he saw in the area: Messrs Norman & Jarman. How does he know there weren't others in a) the domino room b) the rear area of the first floor? Because WE know there weren't.
It would have been odd for anyone to be in the Domino Room after 12:15 with the President about to pass by. Even Eddie Piper tried to get a look at the motorcade. Oswald knew just eating his lunch alone wasn't enough, that it needed some "confirmation" in the vague presence of Norman and Jarman. Actually the two regularly hung out together during breaks.
-
Another one who has never been to the TSBD! All theory and no first hand knowledge.
To look straight down to the sidewalk from the 6th floor your entire upper body would need to be hanging out of the window.
Getting it from you isn't any better than not being there. Worse, actually, since one can see in the second image that the ledges hardly protrude at all. A person could easily place a knee or two on the brickwork beneath the window and lean forward with hands gripping the outer edge of the ledge while peering earthward.
-
(1) the window of the 6th floor can only open up half way.
You could certainly be right, but I don't have the time to look for evidence of that claim so could you provide a cite? Thanks.
The following photo is obviously not proof of anything because it was taken after the 22nd and the window could have been fixed but just for reference the photo does show what the fully open window looks like.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PGKsD6G/oswald-sniper-nest-window.jpg)
JohnM
-
Getting it from you isn't any better than not being there. Worse, actually, since one can see in the second image that the ledges hardly protrude at all. A person could easily place a knee or two on the brickwork beneath the window and lean forward with hands gripping the outer edge of the ledge while peering earthward.
Getting it from you isn't any better than not being there.
Yes, it's a really bizarre way to present evidence and even if true, Martin was no near where Oswald was. ::)
JohnM
-
Carolyn Arnold's never gave a consistent time for her exit from the TSBD.
So what? Time estimates are seldom perfect (isn't that what you guys constantly are telling us?),
Estimates are estimates, but you'd at least expect Arnold to be consistent. I brought it up because you selectively chose to use 12:25 from one version and not 12:15 from another.
but the fact remains that Arnold confirmed to the FBI twice that she saw Oswald prior to the shooting, between 12:15 and 12:25 and stuck to her story. This is relevant because witnesses reported movement in the 6th floor window from 12:15 onwards. In a normal murder investigation such a witness would not be ignored and dismissed out of hand.
Off the top of my head, only Arnold Rowland is the only person who claimed to see "movement" in any 6th floor window at 12:15. Please see the tête-à-tête I had with Dan O'Meara regarding Rowland.
And, why do I have this feeling that you really have no idea what a "normal murder investigation" would entail?
-
Tête-à-tête, Mitch
-
Jack Dougherty said that he ate lunch in the Domino Room from 12:00 until 12:30 (or shortly before 12:30).
Jack then took a lift to the 6th floor or 5th floor to get stock.
Jack said that he saw LHO twice that day -- (1) entering the building at 8:00 am, & (2) on the 6th floor at about 11:00 am.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman entered the Domino Room at about 12:10.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman walked past the Domino Room at about 12:26.
-
So why should anyone believe Oswald was on the first floor during the assassination?
Oswald wouldn't even admit he placed the package across the back seat. He said it was a lunch bag of some vague size that he kept with him in the front seat. So either Oswald is lying (now what would be his motivation?) or Frazier is,
BTW, you're not still claiming you're not a conspiracy theorist? You have all the authorities lying about everything Oswald said; meanwhile a cop-killer, Presidential assassin and wife-beater gets all the benefit you can muster.
So why should anyone believe Oswald was on the first floor during the assassination?
Why would anyone dismiss out of hand anything Oswald said and not investigate any of it?
Oswald wouldn't even admit he placed the package across the back seat. He said it was a lunch bag of some vague size that he kept with him in the front seat. So either Oswald is lying (now what would be his motivation?) or Frazier is,
As we have no verbatim record of what Oswald said, we don't know what he actually said. All we have is the word of those who screwed up the interrogation. In a murder investigation that's not a good place to be.
BTW, you're not still claiming you're not a conspiracy theorist? You have all the authorities lying about everything Oswald said; meanwhile a cop-killer, Presidential assassin and wife-beater gets all the benefit you can muster.
There is the same old "if you're not with us, you must be against us" crap again. Not everybody who is skeptical about the WC narrative is a conspiracy theorist. All I have been doing is testing the strength (or lack thereof) of the WC's prosecutorial case against Oswald. I have never gone beyond that and will never go there. So, yes, even if you don't like it, I am still saying that I am not a conspiracy theorist.
All I do is look at the known facts and try to make sense of them. Time and time again history has shown us that you can not blindly believe everything authorities tell you. In a murder investigation there is no assumption that a person of authority always speaks the truth. Too many innocent people have gone to jail because a jury believed crooked cops!
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Getting it from you isn't any better than not being there. Worse, actually, since one can see in the second image that the ledges hardly protrude at all. A person could easily place a knee or two on the brickwork beneath the window and lean forward with hands gripping the outer edge of the ledge while peering earthward.
Hahahaha... now all you have to do is find a witness that said this actually happened.
Don't bother, it didn't happen. You guys are stuck so deep in your own delusion that in your mind anything could have happened.
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You could certainly be right, but I don't have the time to look for evidence of that claim so could you provide a cite? Thanks.
The following photo is obviously not proof of anything because it was taken after the 22nd and the window could have been fixed but just for reference the photo does show what the fully open window looks like.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PGKsD6G/oswald-sniper-nest-window.jpg)
JohnM
So, despite the fact that you admit that the photo isn't proof of anything, you post it anyway? Yeah, that makes sense.
The photo does not prove a damned thing, because the original window was removed and replaced by a new one shortly after the investigation. A far better indication of how high the windows could actually open is this photo;
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnBFBGm6/Kneel-and-peek-at-street.png)
Now just imagine somebody sitting on the ledge and try to imagine how for his shoulders and head would reach.
Btw, there is a photo in circulation of Detective Hill (I believe) calling down from the sniper's nest, which shows exactly how high the opening of the window was on 11/22/63.
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Yes, it's a really bizarre way to present evidence and even if true, Martin was no near where Oswald was. ::)
JohnM
Yes, it's a really bizarre way to present evidence
Yeah right... a far better way to present evidence is never going there and just using pictures to make up your own stories.
Hilarious
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Estimates are estimates, but you'd at least expect Arnold to be consistent. I brought it up because you selectively chose to use 12:25 from one version and not 12:15 from another.
Off the top of my head, only Arnold Rowland is the only person who claimed to see "movement" in any 6th floor window at 12:15. Please see the tete' a tete' I had with Dan O'Meara regarding Rowland.
And, why do I have this feeling that you really have no idea what a "normal murder investigation" would entail?
Estimates are estimates, but you'd at least expect Arnold to be consistent. I brought it up because you selectively chose to use 12:25 from one version and not 12:15 from another.
No. I never used either estimate. I merely pointed out that Carolyn Arnold was consistent is saying that she had seen Oswald, whether it was at 12:15 or 12:25 or somewhere inbetween.
Off the top of my head, only Arnold Rowland is the only person who claimed to see "movement" in any 6th floor window at 12:15. Please see the tete' a tete' I had with Dan O'Meara regarding Rowland.
Brennan also claimed to have seen somebody in the window well before the arrival of the motorcade.
And, why do I have this feeling that you really have no idea what a "normal murder investigation" would entail?
That's an easy question to answer. You are a LN. That's why you have that "feeling"! It has to do with pure bias and nothing to do with reality.
The LNs in this thread really must not like the obvious facts being presented since all of them are now attacking the messenger. Says it all, really!
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So, despite the fact that you admit that the photo isn't proof of anything, you post it anyway? Yeah, that makes sense.
The photo does not prove a damned thing, because the original window was removed and replaced by a new one shortly after the investigation. A far better indication of how high the windows could actually open is this photo;
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnBFBGm6/Kneel-and-peek-at-street.png)
Now just imagine somebody sitting on the ledge and try to imagine how for his shoulders and head would reach.
Btw, there is a photo in circulation of Detective Hill (I believe) calling down from the sniper's nest, which shows exactly how high the opening of the window was on 11/22/63.
So, despite the fact that you admit that the photo isn't proof of anything, you post it anyway? Yeah, that makes sense.
No, I simply asked and quite innocently because I'd really like to know, where is the evidence of your claim that the window could only open half way on the 22nd and you didn't answer the question?
I admitted that the photo isn't proof that the window being fully opened is how it was on the 22nd, but until you provide evidence to the contrary, the fully open window is a possibility. I am still waiting for you.
And since I can't date when the photo was taken, how can you assume it's a different window, it may well be the replaced window but it also may not be.
The photo does not prove a damned thing, because the original window was removed and replaced by a new one shortly after the investigation.
Well Martin, without a date the photo was taken, your assumption is a little premature and as I said you could well be right but I just asked for some evidence. I didn't claim a single thing.
Btw, there is a photo in circulation of Detective Hill (I believe) calling down from the sniper's nest, which shows exactly how high the opening of the window was on 11/22/63.
The photo of Sergeant Gerald Hill wasn't from the sniper's nest, it's a completely different window.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184839/m1/1/med_res/)
JohnM
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Yes, it's a really bizarre way to present evidence
Yeah right... a far better way to present evidence is never going there and just using pictures to make up your own stories.
Hilarious
On your alleged visit which you are reluctant to prove, if you were kneeling at the sniper's nest window or seated on the sniper's net window sill, then you may have a point but you weren't and you don't, sorry about that.
JohnM
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No, I simply asked and quite innocently because I'd really like to know, where is the evidence of your claim that the window could only open half way on the 22nd and you didn't answer the question?
I admitted that the photo isn't proof that the window being fully opened is how it was on the 22nd, but until you provide evidence to the contrary, the fully open window is a possibility. I am still waiting for you.
It doesn't matter how far the window could open, the only thing that matters is how far the window was open on 11/22/63 and this evidence photo shows you exactly how far it was open on that day;
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMPkqMTP/rear-snipers-nest-boxex.jpg)
there is no way that anybody sitting on the window sill, could stick his head out of the window to look straight down.
And since I can't date when the photo was taken, how can you assume it's a different window, it may well be the replaced window but it also may not be.
Well Martin, without a date the photo was taken, your assumption is a little premature and as I said you could well be right but I just asked for some evidence. I didn't claim a single thing.
As I understand it, the original window was removed six weeks after the assassination, by D.H. Byrd. The odds that your photo was taken after that are far greater than the photo being taken within those six weeks.
The photo of Sergeant Gerald Hill wasn't from the sniper's nest, it's a completely different window.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184839/m1/1/med_res/)
JohnM
True, looking at the arch, it seems to be one of the 6th floor windows in the center of the building. But the photo is useful nevertheless as it clearly shows just how far Hill was hanging out the window. That's how far Oswald also would have to be hanging out of the window to see who was right beneath him on the sidewalk. I seriously doubt that you even remotely believe that actually happened!
Perhaps you need to take a step back and rethink this thing. A man who wants to assassinate the President, suddenly decides to draw attention to himself, at least 5 minutes prior to the arrival of the motorcade, by sticking his head out of the window and looking straight down to see who was on the sidewalk. Really? That makes sense to you?
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On your alleged visit which you are reluctant to prove, if you were kneeling at the sniper's nest window or seated on the sniper's net window sill, then you may have a point but you weren't and you don't, sorry about that.
JohnM
if you were kneeling at the sniper's nest window or seated on the sniper's net window sill, then you may have a point but you weren't and you don't, sorry about that.
But you have a point about Oswald being able to see who was directly below him on the sidewalk, without you ever having been there and only looking at photos? Yeah right..... :D
What's your next bogus claim going to be? That, even if I did see something, I didn't see it on 11/22/63 and that's why it's not a valid point?
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Golly, you Warren Gullibles really are scared of the draft Hosty report of the first interrogation, aren't you? :D
Here it is again:
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
Now! Question! What was the first thing manual workers in the Depository usually did when they broke for lunch?
Question bumped for Mr Organ! Thumb1:
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It would have been odd for anyone to be in the Domino Room after 12:15 with the President about to pass by.
Nope. As you have yourself noted, a guilty Mr Oswald could be confident only that most coworkers would have gone outside. And the domino room, where the manual workers usually ate their lunch, was about the riskiest place inside the first floor Mr Oswald could have chosen to pretend to have been at any point during the lunch break. And yet he chooses it.
Even Eddie Piper tried to get a look at the motorcade. Oswald knew just eating his lunch alone wasn't enough, that it needed some "confirmation" in the vague presence of Norman and Jarman.
Much more likely is that Captain Fritz, seeking to test his suspect's claim, asked him if he had seen anyone there. And-------NB--------Mr Oswald names two and only two coworkers. And it just so happens that there were two and only two coworkers anywhere near the domino room @12:26------------the two named by Mr Oswald. That's quite a lucky guess!
Actually the two regularly hung out together during breaks.
How did Mr Oswald know that Mr Lovelady and/or Mr Dougherty and/or Mr Jones and/or Mr Lewis and/or Mr Frazier and/or Mr Piper were already outside by this time? Could he see inside the front entrance way from his perch on the sixth floor? How did he know the domino room was left alone for the time he claimed he was in there before going outside to watch the P. Parade?
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Oswald wouldn't even admit he placed the package across the back seat. He said it was a lunch bag of some vague size that he kept with him in the front seat. So either Oswald is lying (now what would be his motivation?) or Frazier is,
If Mr Oswald said that, he was lying-------------and understandably so, given the circumstances he was in. He wanted to avoid admitting to having brought ANY large-ish package to work that day
Mr Organ, do you have an explanation for the following?
(https://i.imgur.com/XvCopU1.jpg)
Thumb1:
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Jack Dougherty said that he ate lunch in the Domino Room from 12:00 until 12:30 (or shortly before 12:30).
Jack then took a lift to the 6th floor or 5th floor to get stock.
Jack said that he saw LHO twice that day -- (1) entering the building at 8:00 am, & (2) on the 6th floor at about 11:00 am.
He later told Mr Gill Toff that he saw Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman entered the Domino Room at about 12:10.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman walked past the Domino Room at about 12:26.
He had already gone back upstairs by this time-----------and Mr Oswald had come back down to the first floor (from the second floor) to eat lunch in the now vacated domino room
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Brennan also claimed to have seen somebody in the window well before the arrival of the motorcade.
Another reason, of course, why the Warren Gullibles desperately need to explain away Mr Oswald's citing/sighting of Messrs Norman & Jarman passing through ca. 12:26. They're not succeeding! Thumb1:
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The information clearly given in this part of Agent Hosty's draft report of the first interrogation of Mr Oswald was too dangerous to the case against Mr Oswald, and so it was filtered out in the later official reports--------------- and only saw the light of day (to the horror of Warren Gullibles and lunchroom-fixated CTs everywhere) in 2019
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
In this one small paragraph we have laid out THE counter-narrative of Mr Oswald's movements. From it we can reasonably construct the sequence of events:
-Around noon Mr Oswald breaks for lunch
-He comes downstairs, where he is seen by Mr Shelley and Mr Piper
-He washes up and (perhaps) answers nature's call in the men's room
-He goes up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a coke with his lunch and sits down there for a few minutes (seen there or in the vicinity by Ms Carolyn Arnold, Mr Jack Dougherty and Ms Sarah Stanton)
-He returns to the first floor and has (or continues having) lunch standing around in the now empty domino room
-He periodically goes up to the front door of the building to check for any sign of the motorcade's arrival (he doesn't want to stand around with other employees on the steps beforehand but he does want to watch the P. Parade)
-Ca. 12:26 he notices Messrs Jarman & Norman re-enter the building via the Houston St. dock
-Perhaps taking the men's brisk movements as a sign that the motorcade's arrival is imminent, he goes outside to watch the P. Parade
-He is caught on film by both Mr Wiegman and Mr Darnell standing (with still unfinished lunch/coke) by the west wall of the Depository entrance
-Very shortly after the shooting he is asked by a motorcycle officer running up the steps where the stairs are
-Before he can answer, his boss Mr Truly comes up and offers to escort the officer (all seen by Mr Billy Lovelady and reported to the press that day by DPD)
-Shortly after this, a crewcut man flashing credentials comes running up and asks Mr Oswald where the nearest phone is: Mr Oswald jerks his thumb and says 'In there' (meaning on the shipping floor)
This is a straightforward sequence of events, but the efforts that went into covering it up were far from straightforward!
Thumb1:
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He later told Mr Gill Toff that he saw Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade
He had already gone back upstairs by this time-----------and Mr Oswald had come back down to the first floor (from the second floor) to eat lunch in the now vacated domino room
I thought Oswald went to lunch at noon.
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
You just said it: "Around noon Mr Oswald breaks for lunch". But it should read "Around At noon Mr Oswald breaks went for lunch". Maybe he got a Coke on the way down, but he ought to arrive no later that 12:03-ish
But those in the Domino Room don't remember Oswald being there. And if Oswald brought a lunch, why did he lie about placing the bag it was in on the back seat of Frazier's car?
BTW, you know the "went to 2nd floor to get Coco Cola to eat with lunch" was to justify his presence in the Second Floor Lunchroom just after the assassination (Oswald was in flight and he ducked in there when he heard Truly and Baker coming up the stairs). And no one expects Oswald to be telling the officials what he really was doing during the assassination.
This yo-yo scenario you have Oswald doing is good for a laugh.
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It doesn't matter how far the window could open, the only thing that matters is how far the window was open on 11/22/63 and this evidence photo shows you exactly how far it was open on that day;
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMPkqMTP/rear-snipers-nest-boxex.jpg)
there is no way that anybody sitting on the window sill, could stick his head out of the window to look straight down.
As I understand it, the original window was removed six weeks after the assassination, by D.H. Byrd. The odds that your photo was taken after that are far greater than the photo being taken within those six weeks.
True, looking at the arch, it seems to be one of the 6th floor windows in the center of the building. But the photo is useful nevertheless as it clearly shows just how far Hill was hanging out the window. That's how far Oswald also would have to be hanging out of the window to see who was right beneath him on the sidewalk. I seriously doubt that you even remotely believe that actually happened!
Perhaps you need to take a step back and rethink this thing. A man who wants to assassinate the President, suddenly decides to draw attention to himself, at least 5 minutes prior to the arrival of the motorcade, by sticking his head out of the window and looking straight down to see who was on the sidewalk. Really? That makes sense to you?
It doesn't matter how far the window could open, the only thing that matters is how far the window was open on 11/22/63 and this evidence photo shows you exactly how far it was open on that day;
Does that mean you can't find evidence to support your claim? And your next claim that how far the window was open that day based on a photo taken after 12:30 on the 22nd is absurd on every level.
there is no way that anybody sitting on the window sill, could stick his head out of the window to look straight down.
C'mon Martin, that's just a silly attempt at refutation, even if the window was stuck at the height shown after 12:30 Oswald could have been sitting on the window sill with his torso on the outside of the window and considering Brennan said he could see Oswald from the hips up strongly suggests that Oswald wasn't being obscured behind a reflected sky and a dirty glass panel which makes seeing behind the glass difficult.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/72/fe/bb72fe89bc28a908d90e9f49ccc595a5.jpg)
As I understand it, the original window was removed six weeks after the assassination, by D.H. Byrd. The odds that your photo was taken after that are far greater than the photo being taken within those six weeks.
Fair enough, the fact that they would be doing recreations so soon after the assassination could be seen as bad taste, so while not impossible I lean towards the photo being taken after 6 weeks.
True, looking at the arch, it seems to be one of the 6th floor windows in the center of the building.
Yep.
But the photo is useful nevertheless as it clearly shows just how far Hill was hanging out the window. That's how far Oswald also would have to be hanging out of the window to see who was right beneath him on the sidewalk. I seriously doubt that you even remotely believe that actually happened!
Brennan says that when Oswald was sitting on the window sill was only one time Oswald came to the window alluding to the fact that Oswald came to the window more than once and Oswald could have easily emulated Gerald Hill's position, thanks for pointing that out how far someone could hang out.
Perhaps you need to take a step back and rethink this thing. A man who wants to assassinate the President, suddenly decides to draw attention to himself, at least 5 minutes prior to the arrival of the motorcade, by sticking his head out of the window and looking straight down to see who was on the sidewalk. Really? That makes sense to you?
Not at all, nobody could give two spombleprofglidnoctobunss about some random bloke in a random window checking out what's going on around him before the assassination, in fact being barely visible while hiding in the shadows would be more suspect. But Oswald allegedly being seen with a rifle long before Kennedy's arrival, I do find a little brazen.
JohnM
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I thought Oswald went to lunch at noon.
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
You just said it: "Around noon Mr Oswald breaks for lunch". But it should read "Around At noon Mr Oswald breaks went for lunch". Maybe he got a Coke on the way down, but he ought to arrive no later that 12:03-ish
But those in the Domino Room don't remember Oswald being there. And if Oswald brought a lunch, why did he lie about placing the bag it was in on the back seat of Frazier's car?
BTW, you know the "went to 2nd floor to get Coco Cola to eat with lunch" was to justify his presence in the Second Floor Lunchroom just after the assassination (Oswald was in flight and he ducked in there when he heard Truly and Baker coming up the stairs). And no one expects Oswald to be telling the officials what he really was doing during the assassination.
This yo-yo scenario you have Oswald doing is good for a laugh.
To fabricate an entire theory out of whole cloth is something that is a Ct standard, but Ford takes this concept to entirely new level, he takes the tiniest innocuous statement completely out of context and creates a vast conspiracy and along the way he will throw anyone and everyone under a bus who dares contradict any part of his latest fantasy, but God bless him because all he's accomplishing is irreparably damaging the entire conspiracy movement.
JohnM
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Does that mean you can't find evidence to support your claim? And your next claim that how far the window was open that day based on a photo taken after 12:30 on the 22nd is absurd on every level.
C'mon Martin, that's just a silly attempt at refutation, even if the window was stuck at the height shown after 12:30 Oswald could have been sitting on the window sill with his torso on the outside of the window and considering Brennan said he could see Oswald from the hips up strongly suggests that Oswald wasn't being obscured behind a reflected sky and a dirty glass panel which makes seeing behind the glass difficult.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/72/fe/bb72fe89bc28a908d90e9f49ccc595a5.jpg)
Fair enough, the fact that they would be doing recreations so soon after the assassination could be seen as bad taste, so while not impossible I lean towards the photo being taken after 6 weeks.
Yep.
Brennan says that when Oswald was sitting on the window sill was only one time Oswald came to the window alluding to the fact that Oswald came to the window more than once and Oswald could have easily emulated Gerald Hill's position, thanks for pointing that out how far someone could hang out.
Not at all, nobody could give two spombleprofglidnoctobunss about some random bloke in a random window checking out what's going on around him before the assassination, in fact being barely visible while hiding in the shadows would be more suspect. But Oswald allegedly being seen with a rifle long before Kennedy's arrival, I do find a little brazen.
JohnM
Notice the red rings in the windows of the TSBD.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/72/fe/bb72fe89bc28a908d90e9f49ccc595a5.jpg)
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Does that mean you can't find evidence to support your claim? And your next claim that how far the window was open that day based on a photo taken after 12:30 on the 22nd is absurd on every level.
C'mon Martin, that's just a silly attempt at refutation, even if the window was stuck at the height shown after 12:30 Oswald could have been sitting on the window sill with his torso on the outside of the window and considering Brennan said he could see Oswald from the hips up strongly suggests that Oswald wasn't being obscured behind a reflected sky and a dirty glass panel which makes seeing behind the glass difficult.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/72/fe/bb72fe89bc28a908d90e9f49ccc595a5.jpg)
Your opinions and "could have been" arguments mean nothing. There is not a shred of evidence for them
Oswald could have been sitting on the window sill with his torso on the outside of the window
You actually believe this? Really?... That's hilarious
But thank you for the photo, as it shows exactly that the window wasn't even halfway open. For anybody to stick their head and torso out (to look down to the sidewalk just below them, to see who was there - only minutes prior to the arrival of the motorcade, remember?) - would require that person to be on his knees to begin with. There is no way it can be done by somebody sitting on the window sill
Brennan says that when Oswald was sitting on the window sill was only one time Oswald came to the window alluding to the fact that Oswald came to the window more than once and Oswald could have easily emulated Gerald Hill's position, thanks for pointing that out how far someone could hang out.
Huh? What the hell are you trying to say here? Never mind... let me just ask you a simple question; Did Brennan or anybody else say they saw a man hanging out of the s/n window (in the same manner as Hill) some 5 minutes prior to the arrival of the motorcade? If the answer is no, all you have is another "could have" argument that goes nowhere.
Not at all, nobody could give two spombleprofglidnoctobunss about some random bloke in a random window checking out what's going on around him before the assassination, in fact being barely visible while hiding in the shadows would be more suspect. But Oswald allegedly being seen with a rifle long before Kennedy's arrival, I do find a little brazen.
JohnM
You really need help
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You really need help
BS:
JohnM
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BS:
JohnM
Denial is typical for those who actually need help. Stop trolling
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What was Bonnie Ray Williams doing while Oswald was climbing out of the window?
If BRW was having his lunch next to the SN from 12:00 - 12:25pm when did Oswald get into position?
Maybe he was holding Oswald's belt with one hand while LHO leant out of the window and holding his half-eaten piece of chicken with the other hand.
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Tête-à-tête, Mitch
Thank you for pointing that out. I'm afraid I have a congenital diacritical deficiency that I've had since birth. While I take supplements to combat the condition, sometimes I'm forced to write before they kick in. You will be happy to note that I've gone back and corrected the error. I will now go back to doing something important and/or useful.
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He later told Mr Gill Toff that he saw Mr Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade
He had already gone back upstairs by this time-----------and Mr Oswald had come back down to the first floor (from the second floor) to eat lunch in the now vacated domino room
No, Dougherty finished lunch & went upstairs a little before 12:30. I think that most of the workers started lunch 15 minutes early. And Dougherty wanted to be on the 6th floor when his 45 minutes finished.
Dougherty did not see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Neither did Carolyn Arnold.
Dougherty while on the 5th floor 4 minutes after the shots heard the loud bang of the rooftop trapdoor slamming shut 26 ft above his ear-holes due to the south-westerly wind blowing under the Hertz sign while Baker & Truly were on the roof.
Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec (Sixth Floor Museum measurements)(see their youtube footage).
Oswald stops. What to do next?
Should he continue down to the first floor?
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?
Should he lay low in the lunch room?
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to duck over & hide near the coke machine in the lunch room & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide. He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool.
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, koz he already knows that there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again. And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous. He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk. She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back. Its not a good look. He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn. Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 13 paces to the jacket.
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston. Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck. He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.
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No, Dougherty finished lunch & went upstairs a little before 12:30.
Correct
I think that most of the workers started lunch 15 minutes early. And Dougherty wanted to be on the 6th floor when his 45 minutes finished.
Dougherty did not see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Neither did Carolyn Arnold.
Seeing as you were there that day and they weren't, I'm sure you're right. The coincidence between their recollections and a claim of Mr Oswald that did not reach the public domain until decades later is obviously just that--------a coincidence Thumb1:
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Transcript of Toff's interview i think.
Jack Dougherty makes it down from the fifth floor down to the first and while being interviewed by Gill Toff is asked about whether he saw a white helmeted officer besides Truly.
Q: coming inaudible in the building right? And Mr Truly was down there and did you see a police officer come in with a big helmet on his head? You know a white helmet, a police officer come running in the building at all like right away?
JD: No, I didn’t.
Further down in that same interview Dougherty claims that Oswald was eating his lunch in the second floor lunch room, which isn’t true at all. If he sees Oswald in the second floor lunch room after he has finished his lunch (what was the reason for him to go to the second fl lunch room after his lunch in the first place when he was going for the sixth).
But then changes his mind to seeing him on two while Dougherty went downstairs. Quite a changeover. But that only says he sees him on the second floor, where Oswald went to get his coke for his lunch.
If Oswald at that time was eating his lunch n the second floor then he would have been spotted by many office workers. Yet no one did.
Q: Did anybody tell you, for instance, you like Oswald probably if he was up on the sixth floor headed truly downstairs too, cause someone saw him down there on second floor, pretty fast
JD: Yes, they had to, but I don’t know who it was.
Q: You don’t know what?
JD: I don’t know who it was, who saw him come down.
Q: Did you see him at all that day do you remember?
JD: Well, just downstairs in the lunch room, was about all.
Q: But that was when you were having lunch right?
JD: Yes, uh huh.
Q: And he was having lunch in there too?
JD: No, I was downstairs having lunch and he was having lunch upstairs on two.
Q: Oh he had lunch on two? And you had lunch on one?
JD: Yes.
Q: And did you see him have lunch before you had it or after?
JD: That was after.
Q: You had your lunch first and then you saw him at lunch?
JD: Well, I come down and I saw him on two see and then I went downstairs and had mine.
Q: And he was already in eating?
JD: Yes uh huh.
Later on in the same interview Dougherty doubles down by claiming that Truly was
downstairs for a while and was later asked to go find him by an F.B.I. agent.
Q: I know cause he, he kinda helped out somewhat, according to them, to their statement. Did you happen to eh, you know you said you came back downstairs and someone said go and see Mr Truly or go find Mr Truly, was he in the office at the time?
JD: No, he was upstairs on another floor.
Q: So when you came downstairs the first floor Mr Truly was in his office right?
JD: Yes, for a while.
Q: For a while, but then, you stayed downstairs for a while and then some FBI man came in you say and told you to go find him for him?
JD: Yes, uh huh.
Q: And did you ever find out where he was, Mr Truly?
JD: No, no I never did find out.
Dougherty sees Truly in the office after his arrivalon the first floor. That doesn't equate to Truly's storming inside and on a good trot run towards the elevators does it?
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No, Dougherty finished lunch & went upstairs a little before 12:30. I think that most of the workers started lunch 15 minutes early. And Dougherty wanted to be on the 6th floor when his 45 minutes finished.
Dougherty did not see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Neither did Carolyn Arnold.
Dougherty while on the 5th floor 4 minutes after the shots heard the loud bang of the rooftop trapdoor slamming shut 26 ft above his ear-holes due to the south-westerly wind blowing under the Hertz sign while Baker & Truly were on the roof.
Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec (Sixth Floor Museum measurements)(see their youtube footage).
Oswald stops. What to do next?
Should he continue down to the first floor?
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?
Should he lay low in the lunch room?
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to duck over & hide near the coke machine in the lunch room & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide. He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool.
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, koz he already knows that there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again. And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous. He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk. She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back. Its not a good look. He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn. Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 13 paces to the jacket.
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston. Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck. He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.
Nice story. Too bad there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Pure speculation and also wrong. If Oswald came down the stairs it would have been directly after Adams and Styles and not before them. Study the timeline and you'll find it impossible for him to have been in front of them.
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Nice story. Too bad there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Pure speculation and also wrong. If Oswald came down the stairs it would have been directly after Adams and Styles and not before them. Study the timeline and you'll find it impossible for him to have been in front of them.
The 6th floor museum has footage of their tests showing that it would take 48 sec for Oswald to walk down to the 2nd floor.
He was ahead of Adams & Styles.
I just then found a test that did it in 46 seconds.
https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_4613-scaled.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_4614-scaled.jpg
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1559p50-update-to-anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunch-room-encounter
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Correct
Seeing as you were there that day and they weren't, I'm sure you're right. The coincidence between their recollections and a claim of Mr Oswald that did not reach the public domain until decades later is obviously just that--------a coincidence Thumb1:
Dougherty's claims are all over the place. Dougherty had no reason to be on the 2nd floor in that period -- he used the lifts to get up n down from the 5th & 6th floors. Oswald never had lunch on the 2nd floor, it was for staff.
Arnold's claims are all over the place too. She never saw Oswald eating lunch on the 2nd floor. She exited the TSBD with a bunch of ladies at 12:15.
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I thought Oswald went to lunch at noon.
(https://i.imgur.com/THadzr3.jpg)
You just said it: "Around noon Mr Oswald breaks for lunch". But it should read "Around At noon Mr Oswald breaks went for lunch". Maybe he got a Coke on the way down, but he ought to arrive no later that 12:03-ish
Silly! Agent Hosty's paragraph distinguishes between going for lunch and eating lunch. The former therefore refers to breaking for lunch, i.e. suspending work activities. Mr Oswald will buy a coke as an accompaniment to his lunch, which he will then proceed to start eating. Get it now?
But those in the Domino Room don't remember Oswald being there.
Where does Mr Oswald say he sat in the domino room as soon as he broke for lunch? Don't you know what the first thing was that manual workers in the Depository usually did after breaking for lunch? Do you really need it spelled out for you?
And if Oswald brought a lunch, why did he lie about placing the bag it was in on the back seat of Frazier's car?
The lunch was presumably in the paper bag that also contained the curtain rods (cf the Crime Scene Search Section form you can't explain!). Later, in custody, Mr Oswald allegedly denied having brought any large-ish package to work. If he did indeed deny this, and your heroes aren't lying about this, then that has a simple explanation: he knew how it would be used unfairly against him. He wasn't (unlike his latter-day accusers) a fool.
BTW, you know the "went to 2nd floor to get Coco Cola to eat with lunch" was to justify his presence in the Second Floor Lunchroom just after the assassination (Oswald was in flight and he ducked in there when he heard Truly and Baker coming up the stairs). And no one expects Oswald to be telling the officials what he really was doing during the assassination.
We expect the officials not to lie about what he actually said in custody---------which is what they did here, as proved by the Hosty draft report with its clear account of PRE-motorcade visit to second-floor lunchroom & going outside to watch the P. Parade. Utterly at odds with the official reports. If these were determined to be lies told by Mr Oswald, why did your 'investigating' heroes feel the need to keep them from the public record? Another way of asking this question is: How would you read the explosive contents of the Hosty draft report if you weren't completely blinded by your Warren Gullibility?
Thumb1:
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There has been mention of Brennan here. Any mention of Brennan should be consistent with the following.........
I propose the following sequence of actions by Oswald & Brennan, based on Brennan's words.
LHO's are Oswald's actions. [Brennan's actions are in brackets].
The Z numbers are the frame numbers of the Zapruder footage which actually starts at Z133 in the final sequence, running at 18.3 fps.
Z numbers before Z133 are pseudo numbers based on estimates of timings.
Z000 minus a few minutes. [Brennan sees Oswald in the window some minutes before JFK arrives]
Z000 minus a few minutes. [Brennan climbs up & sits on the curved brick wall on the south-west corner of Elm & Houston]
Z002. LHO sees JFK approaching along Houston St. Click…Click (ejects empty casing)(loads bullet).
Z002. [Brennan watches JFK along Houston St & turning onto Elm St]
Z080. LHO aims rifle at JFK as limo turns onto Elm St.
Z112. LHO fires Shot-1 as the limo straightens.
Z113. The slug ricochets off the overhead signal arm & makes a hole in the floor of the limo (hole found Dec 1963).
Z112. [Brennan hears Shot-1 & thinks it is a backfire or a firecracker][he continues to watch JFK along Elm St]
Z122. LHO Click…Click.
Z133.................................... The Zapruder footage 2nd sequence starts at Z133.
Z133. [In the footage we see Brennan sitting on the wall]
Z152. LHO aims. A tree blocks a clean shot.
Z207. [Our last view in the footage of Brennan sitting on the wall][After Z207 Brennan is out of frame]
Z207. [The footage shows that at no time during Z133 to Z207 has Brennan looked up towards Oswald]
Z217. [Brennan's last view of JFK -- koz a shrub now blocks Brennan's view down Elm St]
Z217. LHO fires Shot-2. The slug hits JFK & Connally (the magic bullet).
Z218. [Brennan hears Shot-2 & realizes that it was a rifle]
Z225. [Brennan looks up & sees Oswald aiming a rifle at JFK]
Z227. LHO Click…Click.
Z255. LHO aims. Sees that JFK has been hit. Decides not to shoot his last bullet (why?).
Z268. LHO stands up & backs away from window, looking at JFK.
Z268. [Brennan sees Oswald stand up & back away & look]
Z280. [Brennan jumps off the wall, & ducks behind a solid section of wall 12 ft away & lays on the grass]
Z313. LHO steps further back from window, still looking, sees agent Hickey shoot JFK in the head.
Z313. [Brennan is laying on grass behind the wall & doesn't hear Hickey's shot(s)]
Z322. LHO walks to the stairs, wiping the rifle, & hides it. There is a 3rd bullet in the rifle. LHO does not pick up his rifle-bag nor the 3 empty casings near the window.
Z400. [Brennan leaves the wall & talks to a cop]
......................................[Brennan heard 2 shots & saw none]
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The 6th floor museum has footage of their tests showing that it would take 48 sec for Oswald to walk down to the 2nd floor.
He was ahead of Adams & Styles.
If you want to be gullible... go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.
Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.
Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!
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Jack Dougherty said that he ate lunch in the Domino Room from 12:00 until 12:30 (or shortly before 12:30).
Jack then took a lift to the 6th floor or 5th floor to get stock.
Jack said that he saw LHO twice that day -- (1) entering the building at 8:00 am, & (2) on the 6th floor at about 11:00 am.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman entered the Domino Room at about 12:10.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman walked past the Domino Room at about 12:26.
Even though Jack seems to have problems with the chronology of events, which may have just been due to being nervous? and like Oswald, Jack had no alibi which only would have mounted extra pressure.
But Dougherty did get to work an hour early and had extra important responsibilities which means he was trusted as an employee and only adds to his credibility.
Jack does make an interesting revelation during his testimony, he says that some of his fellow employees like Shelley saw Oswald carry a good-sized package which I believe is most certainly true and personally I can't blame any of them for not disclosing that they saw Oswald carry the bag that contained the Presidential murder weapon, because that opens a whole new can of worms like, why they didn't ask Oswald about the unusually long bag and especially on that day.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.
JohnM
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Estimates are estimates, but you'd at least expect Arnold to be consistent. I brought it up because you selectively chose to use 12:25 from one version and not 12:15 from another.
No. I never used either estimate. I merely pointed out that Carolyn Arnold was consistent is saying that she had seen Oswald, whether it was at 12:15 or 12:25 or somewhere inbetween.
Well, no. You cherry picked her 12:25 statements and mysteriously forgot to mention the 12:15 ones. In this case, the 10 minute difference is liable to be significant.
Off the top of my head, only Arnold Rowland is the only person who claimed to see "movement" in any 6th floor window at 12:15. Please see the tête-à-tête [Bill, take note] I had with Dan O'Meara regarding Rowland.
Brennan also claimed to have seen somebody in the window well before the arrival of the motorcade.
Brennan said that he left his workplace for the Dealey Plaza at 12:18, and arrived at his perch between 12:22 and 12:24. He sighted the man on the 6th floor sometime after that. That put's Brennan's sighting of his rifleman only a few minutes before the appearance of the motorcade. Maybe only a couple of minutes. Maybe even less. But not "well before the arrival of the motorcade", especially in the sense that you'd like to imply. And after 12:15.
And, why do I have this feeling that you really have no idea what a "normal murder investigation" would entail?
That's an easy question to answer. You are a LN. That's why you have that "feeling"! It has to do with pure bias and nothing to do with reality.
The LNs in this thread really must not like the obvious facts being presented since all of them are now attacking the messenger. Says it all, really!
Sometimes, it's what you don't say that's most important. For instance, look at all the Sturm und Drang you just unloaded from Wonderland's left field. For all that typing, you made no effort whatsoever to rebut my point...which is a good sign that you can't. Your notions as to what constitutes a "normal murder investigation" is no better than the untutored reveries of any other sad sap out there. The funny part is that you ended it proclaiming your "obvious facts" immediately after parroting a half truth (in Carolyn Arnold's case) and a high-arching incorrectitude (in claiming that Howard Brennan said he saw someone on the 6th floor "well before" the motorcade showed up.)
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If Oswald at that time was eating his lunch n the second floor then he would have been spotted by many office workers.
Name them!
Yet no one did.
~Grin~ And anyone who says they did you dismiss in kneejerk fashion as not credible---------all because you have your heart set on putting Mr Oswald on six for the shooting.
You still haven't addressed the key point, Mr Rynkiewicz: the fact that Mr Dougherty and Ms Arnold and Ms Stanton all offer support for something (a PRE-motorcade visit to the second-floor lunchroom by Mr Oswald) that no one at that time even knew Mr Oswald had claimed. They didn't say 'I saw him sitting on the front stairs' or '...standing out on the rear loading dock' or '...looking at stuff in the storage room on 1'. No: second-floor lunchroom.
Imagine Mr Oswald had claimed he'd been down in the basement eating lunch alone. And imagine this claim was completely unknown to anyone outside the inner circle of investigators, only seeing the light of day in 2019. And imagine three Depository employees had long before that, and independently of one another, spoken of having seen Mr Oswald in the basement in the timeframe in question.
Wouldn't it be just astounding that a guilty Mr Oswald had managed to predict what three people would later corroborate?
Well, that's where we are with his claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom before the assassination.
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Oswald never had lunch on the 2nd floor, it was for staff.
He was seen there on multiple occasions by multiple people. Do your research before making loose claims!
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Jack does make an interesting revelation during his testimony, he says that some of his fellow employees like Shelley saw Oswald carry a good-sized package which I believe is most certainly true and personally I can't blame any of them for not disclosing that they saw Oswald carry the bag that contained the Presidential murder weapon, because that opens a whole new can of worms like, why they didn't ask Oswald about the unusually long bag and especially on that day.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.
JohnM
I agree, Mr Dougherty's mention of what Mr Shelley told him he saw cannot be ignored!
Now, Mr Mytton, let us ask ourselves a question:
Why did Mr Shelley himself not say anything to the authorities about his potentially crucial sighting of a "fairly good-sized package" in Mr Oswald's hands?
Thumb1:
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I agree, Mr Dougherty's mention of what Mr Shelley told him he saw cannot be ignored!
Now, Mr Mytton, let us ask ourselves a question:
Why did Mr Shelley himself not say anything to the authorities about his potentially crucial sighting of a "fairly good-sized package" in Mr Oswald's hands?
Thumb1:
I answered that in my text, but if you want to speculate further then be my guest.
JohnM
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I answered that in my text, but if you want to speculate further then be my guest.
JohnM
Well, it would depend on the size of the "fairly good-sized package", no?
Let us put the likely case: Mr Shelley saw a fairly good-sized package of the same size as that described by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, i.e. one not large enough to hold a rifle.
Would his volunteering of this information be apt to be met by the 'investigating' authorities with
a) calm appreciation towards Mr Shelley for having helped them with their investigation?
b) panic?
Answers on a postcard, please! Thumb1:
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If you want to be gullible... go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.
Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.
Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!
No, Adams & Styles went from the window to their lift, then they went to the stairs. They were 10 sec or more behind Oswald. And they couldnt see Oswald walking around on their 4th floor from one leg of the stairs to the other leg koz of the stacks of books etc.
Adams & Styles exited the rear door from the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered the 1st floor.
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Name them!
~Grin~ And anyone who says they did you dismiss in kneejerk fashion as not credible---------all because you have your heart set on putting Mr Oswald on six for the shooting.
You still haven't addressed the key point, Mr Rynkiewicz: the fact that Mr Dougherty and Ms Arnold and Ms Stanton all offer support for something (a PRE-motorcade visit to the second-floor lunchroom by Mr Oswald) that no one at that time even knew Mr Oswald had claimed. They didn't say 'I saw him sitting on the front stairs' or '...standing out on the rear loading dock' or '...looking at stuff in the storage room on 1'. No: second-floor lunchroom.
Imagine Mr Oswald had claimed he'd been down in the basement eating lunch alone. And imagine this claim was completely unknown to anyone outside the inner circle of investigators, only seeing the light of day in 2019. And imagine three Depository employees had long before that, and independently of one another, spoken of having seen Mr Oswald in the basement in the timeframe in question.
Wouldn't it be just astounding that a guilty Mr Oswald had managed to predict what three people would later corroborate?
Well, that's where we are with his claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom before the assassination.
I dont remember saying any of that.
But, i seem to recall that Oswald said that he had had his lunch in the Domino Room, or at least on the 1st floor.
I think that Oswald did not have/eat any lunch at all on that day.
Re Oswald having been seen on a number of occasions eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom, yes i remember that, praps he did, being a new worker & not knowing the rule.
But on that day Oswald didnt have any lunch anywhere, not on the 1st floor, not on the 2nd floor, not on the 6th floor.
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Does that mean you can't find evidence to support your claim? And your next claim that how far the window was open that day based on a photo taken after 12:30 on the 22nd is absurd on every level.
C'mon Martin, that's just a silly attempt at refutation, even if the window was stuck at the height shown after 12:30 Oswald could have been sitting on the window sill with his torso on the outside of the window and considering Brennan said he could see Oswald from the hips up strongly suggests that Oswald wasn't being obscured behind a reflected sky and a dirty glass panel which makes seeing behind the glass difficult.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/72/fe/bb72fe89bc28a908d90e9f49ccc595a5.jpg)
Fair enough, the fact that they would be doing recreations so soon after the assassination could be seen as bad taste, so while not impossible I lean towards the photo being taken after 6 weeks.
Yep.
Brennan says that when Oswald was sitting on the window sill was only one time Oswald came to the window alluding to the fact that Oswald came to the window more than once and Oswald could have easily emulated Gerald Hill's position, thanks for pointing that out how far someone could hang out.
Not at all, nobody could give two spombleprofglidnoctobunss about some random bloke in a random window checking out what's going on around him before the assassination, in fact being barely visible while hiding in the shadows would be more suspect. But Oswald allegedly being seen with a rifle long before Kennedy's arrival, I do find a little brazen.
JohnM
A serious question John - When do you believe that Oswald gets into position in the SN?
There is very strong evidence that BRW is in or around the SN until a few minutes before the arrival of the motorcade - the main part of his lunch, a half-eaten piece of chicken, is found on top of the SN by multiple officers (at least 4 I believe), before the arrival of Fritz. The testimony of Jarman and Norman indicates BRW does not come down to the 5th floor until moments before the motorcade arrives.
The testimony of Rowland has a black male actually in the SN around 12:15pm
Is there a consensus within the LN community on this point.
In an Oswald-Did-It scenario it seems logical that Rowland's 'man with the rifle' is Oswald who, at some point, confronts/interacts with BRW and gets him to leave. That BRW simply goes downstairs to carry on watching the motorcade would indicate this 'confrontation' was not at rifle point. It is only after the event that BRW realizes he knows who the assassin is and tries to distance himself as much as possible from his lunch on the 6th floor (something definitely demonstrated by his testimony)
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No, Adams & Styles went from the window to their lift, then they went to the stairs. They were 10 sec or more behind Oswald. And they couldnt see Oswald walking around on their 4th floor from one leg of the stairs to the other leg koz of the stacks of books etc.
Adams & Styles exited the rear door from the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered the 1st floor.
You clearly do not know the case well enough.
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You clearly do not know the case well enough.
I came to this forum koz i woz bored.
I am a genius.
List one point where i am wrong.
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I came to this forum koz i woz bored.
I am a genius.
List one point where i am wrong.
I came to this forum koz i woz bored.
Bored from watching You Tube videos, I suppose... That's your main source, right?
List one point where i am wrong.
Already done, but since you asked, calling your self a genius is just about as wrong and as stupid as it gets
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I came to this forum koz i woz bored.
Bored from watching You Tube videos, I suppose... That's your main source, right?
List one point where i am wrong.
Already done, but since you asked, calling your self a genius is just about as wrong and as stupid as it gets
I am the world authority on some aspects on things Einsteinian, which i have devoted say 8 years to.
Then, i got interested in things JFKian, & in 4 months i worked it all out.
I of course relied on the wonderfull work of others.
I learnt from everyone.
But my own contribution has been brilliant.
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I am the world authority on some aspects on things Einsteinian, which i have devoted say 8 years to.
Then, i got interested in things JFKian, & in 4 months i worked it all out.
I of course relied on the wonderfull work of others.
I learnt from everyone.
But my own contribution has been brilliant.
I see, you are a legend in your own mind.... Got it :D
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Well, it would depend on the size of the "fairly good-sized package", no?
Let us put the likely case: Mr Shelley saw a fairly good-sized package of the same size as that described by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, i.e. one not large enough to hold a rifle.
Would his volunteering of this information be apt to be met by the 'investigating' authorities with
a) calm appreciation towards Mr Shelley for having helped them with their investigation?
b) panic?
Answers on a postcard, please! Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PT2NdXR/CABLEGRAM-MAGIC-SHRINKING-GUN-BAG.png)
BILL CHAPMAN
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I see, you are a legend in your own mind.... Got it :D
I have made say 300 postings.
Read them, & learn.
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I have made say 300 postings.
Read them, & learn.
I have made say 300 postings.
That's 299 too many..... None of them provide any useful information....
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I have made say 300 postings.
That's 299 too many..... None of them provide any useful information....
Some of my early postings are wrong (but i was learning fast), but the later ones are ok (in fact brilliant).
Most comments are in 13 threads started by myself, & some (mostly early ones) are on approx 10 threads started by others. My comments draw attention to.....
Hughes footage (missed by others) showing Rackley (walking towards the TSBD) & Romack (watching Rackley) before the first shot.
Bell's footage (missed by others) showing Hoffman's falcon (stopping on the overpass, as JFK passes under) & Officer Murphy (firstly on the nearside of the overpass, as JFK passes under)(& then on the far side, after JFK has passed).
Bronson's footage (mostly missed by others) showing agent Hickey with AR15 (AR15 swinging upwards at approx Z318), & showing various reactions by other agents in QM.
Muchmore's footage (missed by others) showing driver Kinney's headturn reaction at approx Z320.
Zapruder's footage (mostly missed by others) showing Brennan's head/eye movements Z133 to Z207.
In addition i explain/theorize re -- Oswald's movements during his exit from the TSBD -- & Brennan's movements during the shots (he ducks down behind the solid concrete pillar at approx Z313).
I show a picture of the bullet hole in the floor of the JFK limo (hole made by Oswald's first shot, that missed JFK).
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Some of my early postings are wrong (but i was learning fast), but the later ones are ok (in fact brilliant).
Most comments are in 13 threads started by myself, & some (mostly early ones) are on approx 10 threads started by others. My comments draw attention to.....
Hughes footage (missed by others) showing Rackley (walking towards the TSBD) & Romack (watching Rackley) before the first shot.
Bell's footage (missed by others) showing Hoffman's falcon (stopping on the overpass, as JFK passes under) & Officer Murphy (firstly on the nearside of the overpass, as JFK passes under)(& then on the far side, after JFK has passed).
Bronson's footage (mostly missed by others) showing agent Hickey with AR15 (AR15 swinging upwards at approx Z318), & showing various reactions by other agents in QM.
Muchmore's footage (missed by others) showing driver Kinney's headturn reaction at approx Z320.
Zapruder's footage (mostly missed by others) showing Brennan's head/eye movements Z133 to Z207.
In addition i explain/theorize re -- Oswald's movements during his exit from the TSBD -- & Brennan's movements during the shots (he ducks down behind the solid concrete pillar at approx Z313).
I show a picture of the bullet hole in the floor of the JFK limo (hole made by Oswald's first shot, that missed JFK).
Bronson's footage (mostly missed by others) showing agent Hickey with AR15 (AR15 swinging upwards at approx Z318), & showing various reactions by other agents in QM.
As I recall this was one of your early posts....You proposed the idea hat Hickey had shot JFK.....Utterly ridiculous!! After that I avoided your posts....
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Bronson's footage (mostly missed by others) showing agent Hickey with AR15 (AR15 swinging upwards at approx Z318), & showing various reactions by other agents in QM.
As I recall this was one of your early posts....You proposed the idea that Hickey had shot JFK.....Utterly ridiculous!! After that I avoided your posts....
U should read my postings re Hickey (in say 3 threads)(search hickey).
The critical thing is whether an accidental burst could clear the windshield -- & my drawings show that the AR15 had to be 3" higher (based on the cars etc being on level ground) -- or praps only 1" higher if Queen Mary dipped due to braking (which of course it did brake)(which is why Hickey fell forward).
When i say praps only 1" higher i really mean that it still has to be 3" higher, but the dipping due to braking would in effect raise the AR15 from being 1" higher to being 3" higher, u know what i mean.
Donahue's drawing was never meant to show whether the AR15 could shoot over the windshield -- the drawing merely meant to show that the angle of the head wound suited the AR15, & didnt suite the Carcano.
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U should read my postings re Hickey (in say 3 threads)(search hickey).
The critical thing is whether an accidental burst could clear the windshield -- & my drawings show that the AR15 had to be 3" higher (based on the cars etc being on level ground) -- or praps only 1" higher if Queen Mary dipped due to braking (which of course it did brake)(which is why Hickey fell forward).
When i say praps only 1" higher i really mean that it still has to be 3" higher, but the dipping due to braking would in effect raise the AR15 from being 1" higher to being 3" higher, u know what i mean.
Donahue's drawing was never meant to show whether the AR15 could shoot over the windshield -- the drawing merely meant to show that the angle of the head wound suited the AR15, & didnt suite the Carcano.
Donahue's drawing was never meant to show whether the AR15 could shoot over the windshield -- the drawing merely meant to show that the angle of the head wound suited the AR15, & didnt suite the Carcano.
Anybody who believes that the carcano was the murder weapon is extremely ignorant about the TSBD carcano. ( and carcano's in general. )
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Donahue's drawing was never meant to show whether the AR15 could shoot over the windshield -- the drawing merely meant to show that the angle of the head wound suited the AR15, & didnt suite the Carcano.
Anybody who believes that the carcano was the murder weapon is extremely ignorant about the TSBD carcano. ( and carcano's in general. )
I dont think there is much of a problem re the carcano, the problem is the bullet, a hollow point kind of bullet blew a large chunk of JFKs head away, and a carcano can fire hollow points, eg Oswald could have dug the nose off an ordinary FMJ hizself.
But re Hickey, a search on this forum for Hickey yields only 2 pages of hits, & i see that some eg may 2019 mention Hickey being the shooter.
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I dont think there is much of a problem re the carcano, the problem is the bullet, a hollow point kind of bullet blew a large chunk of JFKs head away, and a carcano can fire hollow points, eg Oswald could have dug the nose off an ordinary FMJ hizself.
But re Hickey, a search on this forum for Hickey yields only 2 pages of hits, & i see that some eg may 2019 mention Hickey being the shooter.
I dont think there is much of a problem re the carcano, the problem is the bullet, a hollow point kind of bullet blew a large chunk of JFKs head away, and a carcano can fire hollow points, eg Oswald could have dug the nose off an ordinary FMJ hizself.
This is an excellent example of why I said that you've posted at least 299 too many posts. Your post is filled with absurd speculative garbage....
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I dont remember saying any of that.
But, i seem to recall that Oswald said that he had had his lunch in the Domino Room, or at least on the 1st floor.
I think that Oswald did not have/eat any lunch at all on that day.
Re Oswald having been seen on a number of occasions eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom, yes i remember that, praps he did, being a new worker & not knowing the rule.
But on that day Oswald didnt have any lunch anywhere, not on the 1st floor, not on the 2nd floor, not on the 6th floor.
Again with the ludicrously self-certain 'I was there that day, I am a genius' discourse, Mr Rynkiewicz. This isn't research you're doing, just random bloviation
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Well, it would depend on the size of the "fairly good-sized package", no?
Let us put the likely case: Mr Shelley saw a fairly good-sized package of the same size as that described by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, i.e. one not large enough to hold a rifle.
Would his volunteering of this information be apt to be met by the 'investigating' authorities with
a) calm appreciation towards Mr Shelley for having helped them with their investigation?
b) panic?
Answers on a postcard, please! Thumb1:
So! Mr Jack Dougherty tells the WC that "some of the fellows", including Mr Bill Shelley, spoke of seeing Mr Oswald with a "fairly good-sized package" that morning. Mr Ball must be electrified to hear these glad tidings, for they promise to undermine the reliability of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier and Ms Linnie Mae Randle's description of a package too small to contain a rifle. Breakthrough!
There is only one thing for it: recall Mr Shelley for a follow-up deposition (he appeared before Mr Ball only yesterday) and ask him about the fairly good-sized package.
But Mr Ball doesn't do this. In fact, no effort whatsoever is made to follow this extremely important matter up. Why not?
Because the last thing Mr Ball & Co. want established on the record is that the fairly good-sized package seen by Mr Shelley & Co. was not nearly good-sized enough.
The WC knew full well that Mr Oswald brought a paper bag containing two curtain rods to work that morning, and that this same pair of curtain rods was discovered somewhere in the Depository after the assassination-------------and anxiously tested for Mr Oswald's prints. Their shenanigans in the Paine garage on 23 March proves it.
Thumb1:
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I dont think there is much of a problem re the carcano, the problem is the bullet, a hollow point kind of bullet blew a large chunk of JFKs head away, and a carcano can fire hollow points, eg Oswald could have dug the nose off an ordinary FMJ hizself.
This is an excellent example of why I said that you've posted at least 299 too many posts. Your post is filled with absurd speculative garbage....
I didnt say that i thort that Oswald fired a (home made) hollow-point -- i merely meant that it might be possible.
Except that Oswald's shot-2 was not a hollow-point, ie the magic bullet.
And Oswald's shot-1 i think wasnt a hollow-point, koz i think that the pointy bit of that half of the FMJ is mostly there (ie not missing)(this is CE567 or CE569).
And Oswald did not fire a shot-3.
But if someone (silly) said that Oswald's shot-3 was the head-shot, & that it was a hollow-point (which would explain the explosion of JFK's head), then it might be difficult to disprove.
So, u are saying that my speculation that a carcano can fire a hollow-point bullet is garbage. Would u like to place some $$$$ on that?
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Again with the ludicrously self-certain 'I was there that day, I am a genius' discourse, Mr Rynkiewicz. This isn't research you're doing, just random bloviation
We can be fairly certain that Oswald did not bring any lunch that day.
And i dont remember seeing any wordage that hinted that Oswald walked to his favorite lunch-shop in i think Houston St to buy lunch.
But he might have. Which could be importantish.
Dougherty was in the Domino Room tween 12:00 (more likely 11:45) and say 12:39. He did not see Oswald. Oswald said that he ate lunch in the Domino Room.
Oswald lied. Or, Oswald had lunch tween 11:45 and say 11:59 (if he ran & bought lunch).
Either way, Oswald shot JFK.
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We can be fairly certain that Oswald did not bring any lunch that day.
And i dont remember seeing any wordage that hinted that Oswald walked to his favorite lunch-shop in i think Houston St to buy lunch.
But he might have. Which could be importantish.
Dougherty was in the Domino Room tween 12:00 (more likely 11:45) and say 12:39. He did not see Oswald. Oswald said that he ate lunch in the Domino Room.
Oswald lied. Or, Oswald had lunch tween 11:45 and say 11:59 (if he ran & bought lunch).
Either way, Oswald shot JFK.
More under-researched opinion stated as 'I was there, I am a genius' fact. Yawn
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More under-researched opinion stated as 'I was there, I am a genius' fact. Yawn
Which bits are wrong?
But dont mention that Dougherty saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom (it is clearly BS).
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We now have two of them on the board!
Self-appointed.
LOL
Me, myself, i have nailed who shot who & when & how.
U guys have discovered or invented a confusion of wrongness & irrelevance.
I dont expect everyone to work out the truth for themselves -- this takes genius.
But i expect at least a small number to recognize the truth when it is explained.
Then, we need a word for thems who dont recognize or understand the truth when it is explained.
Which category am i in?
Which category are u in?
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I didnt say that i thort that Oswald fired a (home made) hollow-point -- i merely meant that it might be possible.
Except that Oswald's shot-2 was not a hollow-point, ie the magic bullet.
And Oswald's shot-1 i think wasnt a hollow-point, koz i think that the pointy bit of that half of the FMJ is mostly there (ie not missing)(this is CE567 or CE569).
And Oswald did not fire a shot-3.
But if someone (silly) said that Oswald's shot-3 was the head-shot, & that it was a hollow-point (which would explain the explosion of JFK's head), then it might be difficult to disprove.
So, u are saying that my speculation that a carcano can fire a hollow-point bullet is garbage. Would u like to place some $$$$ on that?
Pssssst Marjan....WAKE UP!..... Lee Oswald did NOT fire any shots on 11-22-63..... So all of your speculation is just GARBAGE.
So, u are saying that my speculation that a carcano can fire a hollow-point bullet is garbage. Would u like to place some $$$$ on that?/i]
Go away ....and take your silly ideas with you. There's no doubt that a carcano can fire a hollow point projectile, but there isn't an iota of evidence that a hollow point projectile was fired from any fire arm that day.
I will agree that the bullet that tore JFK's brain out of his skull seems to have been a very special bullet. That massive wound was not created by any ordinary over the counter cartridge...... And since it is an established fact that the empty shells that were recovered in the TSBD were manufactured for the CIA..... ( this isn't intended to say that those spent shells were fired that day, because they weren't... but they were from a CIA consignment ) It is also a well known fact that the CIA had manufactured some very sophisticated projectiles for assassination purposes.
(That ammo was intended to be used by the anti Castro forces, But the fact remains the CIA had ammo that could easily have caused the massive wound on JFK's skull.)
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Me, myself, i have nailed who shot who & when & how.
U guys have discovered or invented a confusion of wrongness & irrelevance.
I dont expect everyone to work out the truth for themselves -- this takes genius.
But i expect at least a small number to recognize the truth when it is explained.
Then, we need a word for thems who dont recognize or understand the truth when it is explained.
Which category am i in?
Which category are u in?
Which category am i in?
You? In the "delusional, needs help desperately" catergory
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Me, myself, i have nailed who shot who & when & how.
U guys have discovered or invented a confusion of wrongness & irrelevance.
I dont expect everyone to work out the truth for themselves -- this takes genius.
But i expect at least a small number to recognize the truth when it is explained.
Then, we need a word for thems who dont recognize or understand the truth when it is explained.
Which category am i in?
Which category are u in?
I dont expect everyone to work out the truth for themselves -- this takes genius.
But i expect at least a small number to recognize the truth when it is explained.
Hey, Genius, I've got an idea for you..... Since you're a genius and you want everybody to recognize it..... Then you should write a book and enlighten all of us about the truth. Of course writing a book would take you away from this forum, but we've been struggling along for many years so I'm sure we could struggle on without your pearls of genius.
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I dont expect everyone to work out the truth for themselves -- this takes genius.
But i expect at least a small number to recognize the truth when it is explained.
Hey, Genius, I've got an idea for you..... Since you're a genius and you want everybody to recognize it..... Then you should write a book and enlighten all of us about the truth. Of course writing a book would take you away from this forum, but we've been struggling along for many years so I'm sure we could struggle on without your pearls of genius.
I have 2 good books on my desk. Mortal Error. The Smoking Gun.
I could write a small book myself. But it would only have stuff already covered in my 290 or so postings on this forum.
This forum is full of LNers & CTers.
The sane CUers, like myself, have left.
Us CUers believe that there was a cover-up after, to hide that Hickey accidentally fired the headshot.
And me myself i have simply added that he fired a plurality of shots, an auto burst.
Oswald needed 48 sec to get to the 2nd floor, without running.
Hickey's 2nd last shot dented the chrome trim on the windshield.
The rest is easy.
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I have 2 good books on my desk. Mortal Error. The Smoking Gun.
I could write a small book myself. But it would only have stuff already covered in my 290 or so postings on this forum.
This forum is full of LNers & CTers.
The sane CUers, like myself, have left.
Us CUers believe that there was a cover-up after, to hide that Hickey accidentally fired the headshot.
And me myself i have simply added that he fired a plurality of shots, an auto burst.
Oswald needed 48 sec to get to the 2nd floor, without running.
Hickey's 2nd last shot dented the chrome trim on the windshield.
The rest is easy.
Oswald whacked Tippit in cold blood while looking like himself to 11 ppl who ID'd him @ or nearby the ambush.
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A serious question John - When do you believe that Oswald gets into position in the SN?
There is very strong evidence that BRW is in or around the SN until a few minutes before the arrival of the motorcade - the main part of his lunch, a half-eaten piece of chicken, is found on top of the SN by multiple officers (at least 4 I believe), before the arrival of Fritz. The testimony of Jarman and Norman indicates BRW does not come down to the 5th floor until moments before the motorcade arrives.
The testimony of Rowland has a black male actually in the SN around 12:15pm
Is there a consensus within the LN community on this point.
In an Oswald-Did-It scenario it seems logical that Rowland's 'man with the rifle' is Oswald who, at some point, confronts/interacts with BRW and gets him to leave. That BRW simply goes downstairs to carry on watching the motorcade would indicate this 'confrontation' was not at rifle point. It is only after the event that BRW realizes he knows who the assassin is and tries to distance himself as much as possible from his lunch on the 6th floor (something definitely demonstrated by his testimony)
I think the general consensus among LNers is that Oswald was in the Sniper's nest from 12 on, mainly because no employees admitted to seeing Oswald in the building after 12 and as for Williams, I believe that it's possible that Bonnie Ray was at the sniper's nest sometime during the lunch break because to me it doesn't make sense that he found his work mates at the windows directly below, so why wouldn't he check out the sniper's nest windows in search of his work mates. Williams says in his testimony that he "could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building" which sounds like he's over compensating and as I explained above seems pretty suss. And finally by Ford's non sequitur question immediately after this exchange, of asking Williams about being in trouble with the law indicates to me that they were thinking along the same line. And it also explains the somewhat conflicting recollections of Williams, Jarman and Norman in the following weeks.
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
JohnM
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Oswald whacked Tippit in cold blood while looking like himself to 11 ppl who ID'd him @ or nearby the ambush.
Oswald's shot-2 (the magic bullet) some say would have killed JFK within days.
But he didnt fire his remaining bullet -- why not?
And i have explained on this forum that Oswald decided (not to fire a shot-3) immediately after he had fired his shot-2.
But anyhow he then saw Hickey shoot JFK at Z313 (ie at about when he would have fired his shot-3) -- hence he knew that he was a patsy.
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If you want to be gullible... go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.
Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.
Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!
Nice story. Too bad there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Pure speculation and also wrong. If Oswald came down the stairs it would have been directly after Adams and Styles and not before them. Study the timeline and you'll find it impossible for him to have been in front of them.
If you want to be gullible... go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.
Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.
Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!
[my reply back then][ No, Adams & Styles went from the window to their lift, then they went to the stairs. They were 10 sec or more behind Oswald. And they couldnt see Oswald walking around on their 4th floor from one leg of the stairs to the other leg koz of the stacks of books etc.
Adams & Styles exited the rear door from the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered the 1st floor.]
Ok, the Adams & Styles & Garner timing, versus the Oswald timing, for getting to the 4th floor rear stairway, is a major lynchpin of the JFK accidental homicide. So, lets have a closer look.
Adams & Styles see/hear the kerfuffle from their office 4th floor window.
They delay a few seconds then take off to have a better look.
They firstly go to their lift, at the east end of the 4th floor.
They spend a few seconds at the lift, then decide to enter the storeroom area & go to the rear stairs.
I always reckoned that they entered the storeroom area by using the doorway near the lift, in which case they would then best walk north along the eastern wall, ie just like Oswald probly did 2 floors above.
But, i am happy to accept that Adams & Styles didn’t use that there door, i am happy to accept that they retraced their steps back into & throo their office, past Garner, & then entered the storeroom throo their office door, in which case they would probly then have walked west towards the western wall, then walked north to the stairs.
Whether they used the door near the lift, or the door from their office duznt make much difference. The critical thing is that Oswald was in the 4th floor storeroom at the same time as Adams & Styles were in the 4th floor storeroom. The critical aspect of this is that they could have seen each other, but didn’t.
Oswald got down to the 4th floor in say 35 sec, & was at least say 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. He had to walk around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about say 10 paces.
Adams & Styles had the chance to see Oswald when they caught their first glimpse of the stairs. Depending on which door they had used, their first glimpse would have been when looking west along the northern aisle of stacked boxes, or when looking north along the western aisle of boxes.
Looking north along the western aisle of boxes would have taken longer. It would have been a few seconds shorter/quicker for them to enter the storeroom via the door near the lift. But if Garner followed them to the stairs then it makes sense that they had used their office door. Garner is less likely to have "followed them" if they had used the door near the lift. Unless of course they had used the door near the lift & had then turned & walked west past their office door, in which case Garner could then have "followed them". But that is unlikely. The office door would have been shut. Garner would not have seen them. But praps Garner heard them klomping west past the door, & decided to follow. Or, it was a fluke, Garner coincidentally used the office door & found that Adams & Styles were ahead, & probly not even aware that Garner was following. Or, Adams & Styles used the door near the lift & then went north & then west, while Garner used the office door & went west then north, & Garner saw Adams & Styles enter the stairs whilst Garner was walking north, in which case Garner didn’t really follow them in a true sense.
In the end Garner didn’t use the stairs, she stopped at i think the last window near the stairs, & she watched the commotion in the railway carpark, which i think was her intention all along, koz the windows on the western wall in her office were blocked.
A while later Garner saw Truly & Baker rush around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about 5 paces away from her, but they didn’t notice her, or they forgot that they saw her.
Anyhow, the critical thing is that Adams & Styles didn’t see Oswald, he was more than 10 sec ahead of them, mainly koz they had lost time due to their detour to their lift.
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[my reply back then][ No, Adams & Styles went from the window to their lift, then they went to the stairs. They were 10 sec or more behind Oswald. And they couldnt see Oswald walking around on their 4th floor from one leg of the stairs to the other leg koz of the stacks of books etc.
Adams & Styles exited the rear door from the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered the 1st floor.]
Ok, the Adams & Styles & Garner timing, versus the Oswald timing, for getting to the 4th floor rear stairway, is a major lynchpin of the JFK accidental homicide. So, lets have a closer look.
Adams & Styles see/hear the kerfuffle from their office 4th floor window.
They delay a few seconds then take off to have a better look.
They firstly go to their lift, at the east end of the 4th floor.
They spend a few seconds at the lift, then decide to enter the storeroom area & go to the rear stairs.
I always reckoned that they entered the storeroom area by using the doorway near the lift, in which case they would then best walk north along the eastern wall, ie just like Oswald probly did 2 floors above.
You reckoned wrong;
Vicky Adams told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she and Styles went down the stairs immediately after the last shot. She said something similar to Jim Leavelle on 02/07/64 and again to the FBI on 03/23/64 and she repeated it again in her testimony;
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs
But, i am happy to accept that Adams & Styles didn’t use that there door, i am happy to accept that they retraced their steps back into & throo their office, past Garner, & then entered the storeroom throo their office door, in which case they would proble then have walked west towards the western wall, then walked north to the stairs.
Whether they used the door near the lift, or the door from their office duznt make much difference. The critical thing is that Oswald was in the 4th floor storeroom at the same time as Adams & Styles were in the 4th floor storeroom. The critical aspect of this is that they could have seen each other, but didn’t.
Wrong again. Adams, Styles and Garner left the room through the connecting door to the storage space and crossed the floor in a straight line, directly to the stairs. The killer had to walk nearly the entire length of the building before he could turn left.
Oswald got down to the 4th floor in say 35 sec, & was at least say 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. He had to walk around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about say 10 paces.
Couldn't have happened, because that would mean that Oswald would have entered the 2nd floor lunchroom before Adams and Styles reached the second floor, which in turn would mean that they absolutely would have bumped into Baker and Truly on their way down to the first floor.
Now, if you want to argue that Baker and Truly did not reach the stairs on the first floor until Adams and Styles had left the stairs and the building (which they must have done for Baker and Truly not to see them), you even increase the time that Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom, prior to his encounter with Baker. That however, does not fit with the fact that Baker's attention was drawn to the lunchroom because he saw a man walking away (into the lunchroom) through a small window in the door.
Adams & Styles had the chance to see Oswald when they caught their first glimpse of the stairs. Depending on which door they had used, their first glimpse would have been when looking west along the northern aisle of stacked boxes, or when looking north along the western aisle of boxes.
Looking north along the western aisle of boxes would have taken longer. It would have been a few seconds shorter/quicker for them to enter the storeroom via the door near the lift. But if Garner followed them to the stairs then it makes sense that they had used their office door. Garner is less likely to have "followed them" if they had used the door near the lift. Unless of course they had used the door near the lift & had then turned & walked west past their office door, in which case Garner could then have "followed them". But that is unlikely. The office door would have been shut. Garner would not have seen them. But praps Garner heard them klomping west past the door, & decided to follow. Or, it was a fluke, Garner coincidentally used the office door & found that Adams & Styles were ahead, & probly not even aware that Garner was following. Or, Adams & Styles used the door near the lift & then went north & then west, while Garner used the office door & went west then north, & Garner saw Adams & Styles enter the stairs whilst Garner was walking north, in which case Garner didn’t really follow them in a true sense.
In the end Garner didn’t use the stairs, she stopped at i think the last window near the stairs, & she watched the commotion in the railway carpark, which i think was her intention all along, koz the windows on the western wall in her office were blocked.
So much speculation and not a shred of evidence to support it.
A while later Garner saw Truly & Baker rush around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about 5 paces away from her, but they didn’t notice her, or they forgot that they saw her.
Anyhow, the critical thing is that Adams & Styles didn’t see Oswald, he was more than 10 sec ahead of them, mainly koz they had lost time due to their detour to their lift.
Adams says nothing in her testimony about a detour to the lift.
Your error is the fact that you only concentrate on what you perceive to be Oswald's timeline and build those of the others around it. What you need to do is construct a timeline which incorporates the starting times and movements (in relation to eachother) of (1) the 6th floor shooter, (2) Adams & Styles and (3) Baker and Truly. You will soon find out that what you are proposing is wrong
Perhaps this discussion will help you see the light;
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2585.msg93118.html#msg93118
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You reckoned wrong;
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs
Wrong again. Adams, Styles and Garner left the room through the connecting door to the storage space and crossed the floor in a straight line, directly to the stairs. The killer had to walk nearly the entire length of the building before he could turn left. Try to find the video of the FBI reconstruction, which actually took place at the TSBD, rather than using some vague time trial in another building.
Couldn't have happened, because that would mean that Oswald would have entered the 2nd floor lunchroom before Adams and Styles reached the second floor, which in turn would mean that they absolutely would have bumped into Baker and Truly on their way down to the first floor.
Now, if you want to argue that Baker and Truly did not reach the stairs on the first floor until Adams and Styles had left the stairs and the building (which they must have done for Baker and Truly not to see them), you even increase the time that Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom, prior to his encounter with Baker. That however, does not fit with the fact that Baker's attention was drawn to the lunchroom because he saw a man walking away (into the lunchroom) through a small window in the door.
So much speculation and not a shred of evidence to support it.
Adams says nothing in her testimony about a detour to the lift.
Your error is the fact that you only concentrate on what you perceive to be Oswald's timeline and build those of the others around it. What you need to do is construct a timeline which incorporates the starting times and movements (in relation to eachother) of (1) the 6th floor shooter, (2) Adams & Styles and (3) Baker and Truly. You will soon find out that what you are proposing is wrong
Styles said that they firstly went to the lift for a while.
Styles said that they didnt leave the window immediately, she said they stayed at the window for a while.
Hence there is little value in any talk about their exact route.
Whichever route they took, Oswald was more than 10 sec ahead.
And the timing of Oswald getting to the 2nd floor, & Adams & Styles getting to the 2nd floor, & Truly & Baker getting to the 2nd floor, works perfectly.
I will re-post my detailed analysis in a minute or two.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/jj7tmvGQ/adamshelleyencounter-Tim-zps3a2b3da4.png)
JohnM
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Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec (Sixth Floor Museum measurements)(see their youtube footage).
Oswald stops. What to do next?
Should he continue down to the first floor?
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?
Should he lay low in the lunch room?
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to duck over & hide near the coke machine in the lunch room & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide. He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool.
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, koz he already knows that there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again. And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous. He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk. She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back. Its not a good look. He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn. Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 13 paces to the jacket.
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston. Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck. He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.
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Styles said that they firstly went to the lift for a while.
Styles said that they didnt leave the window immediately, she said they stayed at the window for a while.
Hence there is little value in any talk about their exact route.
Whichever route they took, Oswald was more than 10 sec ahead.
And the timing of Oswald getting to the 2nd floor, & Adams & Styles getting to the 2nd floor, & Truly & Baker getting to the 2nd floor, works perfectly.
I will re-post my detailed analysis in a minute or two.
Styles said that they firstly went to the lift for a while.
Styles mentioned it once in an interview. In other interviews she said something different. She is not a reliable witness.
Again, you are making the error of cherry picking evidence and not looking at the bigger picture.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/jj7tmvGQ/adamshelleyencounter-Tim-zps3a2b3da4.png)
JohnM
A deliberate misrepresentation of the facts and a physical impossibility. It's already explained and debunked.
Shelley and Lovelady were in front of the building when the shots were fired. They ran along the street to the railway yard where they stayed for several minutes. Those men were no way near the stairs of the first floor until at least five minutes after the shots. Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles left the stairs before Baker and Truly got there and left the building through a door at the back. They ran towards the railway yard, where they saw Shelley and Lovelady, before walking to the front of the building, where Adams heard a police radio call at 12:36.
Care to explain to me how Adams and Styles could have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, when both men were not even back in the building until at least 5 minutes after the shots?
Or, alternatively, if you are going to claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until several minutes after the shots, how can Dorothy Garner say that they went down before Baker and Truly came up?
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Styles said that they firstly went to the lift for a while.
Styles mentioned it once in an interview. In other interviews she said something different. She is not a reliable witness.
Again, you are making the error of cherry picking evidence and not looking at the bigger picture.
They went to the lift.
In addition Styles said that they delayed at the window, & that it was not a short delay, but i forget her exact wording.
Adams & Styles exited the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered.
My only problem is that Barnett did not see Adams & Styles exiting to Houston St.
And that Romack did not see Adams & Styles exiting to Houston St.
But this is not a major problem.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/jj7tmvGQ/adamshelleyencounter-Tim-zps3a2b3da4.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhxQJCtv/adams-vickie-0032-1-zpsbb7yxln7.jpg)
JohnM
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(https://i.postimg.cc/jj7tmvGQ/adamshelleyencounter-Tim-zps3a2b3da4.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhxQJCtv/adams-vickie-0032-1-zpsbb7yxln7.jpg)
JohnM
Stop messing around. Just answer my questions.....
Care to explain to me how Adams and Styles could have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, when both men were not even back in the building until at least 5 minutes after the shots?
Or, alternatively, if you are going to claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until several minutes after the shots, how can Dorothy Garner say that they went down before Baker and Truly came up?
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They went to the lift.
In addition Styles said that they delayed at the window, & that it was not a short delay, but i forget her exact wording.
Adams & Styles exited the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered.
My only problem is that Barnett did not see Adams & Styles exiting to Houston St.
And that Romack did not see Adams & Styles exiting to Houston St.
But this is not a major problem.
Sorry, I give up. I can't debate such amazing ignorance.
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Sorry, I give up. I can't debate such amazing ignorance.
What do u reckon re who shot who & when & how?
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What do u reckon re who shot who & when & how?
In other words; do I have a theory? No, I don't.
In fact, the whole thing is so long ago, that I don't even care who did it. I just find the case against Oswald interesting.
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In other words; do I have a theory? No, I don't.
In fact, the whole things is so long ago, that I don't even care who did it. I just find the case against Oswald interesting.
The whole saga is amazing. I have much enjoyed my 5 months looking into all of this, especially during the covid lockdown.
The coincidences & flukes etc are amazing. Things could so easily have gone in a different direction.
A major problem is the contradictions. i u we have to sift the good from the bad.
I came back mainly to find out more about the reason for the lapel flip at Z224. And as usual i found that this had as usual been solved a long time ago.
So i probly wont be spending much time here any more.
Highlites.............
I enjoyed finding Hoffman & his falcon in Bell's footage.
I enjoyed finding Romack & Rackley in Hughes' footage.
And finding the pix & the letter re the slug-hole in the JFK limo floor.
And the frame showing the AR15 swinging upwards in the Bronson footage, in Hickey's hands, just after Hickey fired at Z313.
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5D1kkNnLfqA/WRkmL2vLJFI/AAAAAAABLzg/6xPp9q2BfkYhNxUwx7sl9_2txqF-lH9nQCLcB/s696/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Fourth-Floor.png)
Mr. BELIN - After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the stock-room, did you
see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth floor other than the person you were with?
Miss ADAMS - Outside of our office employees; no.
Mr. BELIN - Would these office employees that you might have seen, all be women?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Adams said they went immediately to the stockroom; I wonder how many of these "office employees" would have been in the stockroom during (or possibly immediately after) the assassination. It sounds like she didn't cross through the stockroom to the stairs right away and that it was some time after the shooting, if women were arriving back from the street.
This is compatible with Sandra Styles remembering that Adams and her first went to the passenger elevator and waited a while but it never arrived. The women then started down the steps after Truly and Baker had gone up; the two women passed by Shelley and Lovelady on the first. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth on their way back from the roof, which is when Dorothy Garner could have seen them.
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...Because he ate there regularly and because there were only a handful of minority employees in the Book Depository, it would have been easy for Oswald to guess who had eaten lunch there."
But then...that would be just a guess.
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Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running.
Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?
Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels.
Mr. BELIN - You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS - Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.
Obviously not the exact shoe, but the right heel size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM7V1cJC/3-inch-heel-lady-shoe.jpg)
JohnM
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5D1kkNnLfqA/WRkmL2vLJFI/AAAAAAABLzg/6xPp9q2BfkYhNxUwx7sl9_2txqF-lH9nQCLcB/s696/TSBD-Floor-Plan-Fourth-Floor.png)
Mr. BELIN - After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the stock-room, did you
see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth floor other than the person you were with?
Miss ADAMS - Outside of our office employees; no.
Mr. BELIN - Would these office employees that you might have seen, all be women?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Adams said they went immediately to the stockroom; I wonder how many of these "office employees" would have been in the stockroom during (or possibly immediately after) the assassination. It sounds like she didn't cross through the stockroom to the stairs right away and that it was some time after the shooting, if women were arriving back from the street.
This is compatible with Sandra Styles remembering that Adams and her first went to the passenger elevator and waited a while but it never arrived. The women then started down the steps after Truly and Baker had gone up; the two women passed by Shelley and Lovelady on the first. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth on their way back from the roof, which is when Dorothy Garner could have seen them.
It sounds like she didn't cross through the stockroom to the stairs right away and that it was some time after the shooting, if women were arriving back from the street.
It sounds like? You seem to have missed that there were windows on the side of the building also. Actually, there was one next to the stairs. There could have been women watching the parade at those windows. Adams says not a word about women arriving back from the street. She merely confirms that apart from her regular co-workers she saw nobody on the 4th floor.
The women then started down the steps after Truly and Baker had gone up; the two women passed by Shelley and Lovelady on the first.
Physically impossible because Shelley and Lovelady, by their own statements, did not enter the building on the first floor until around 12:35.
Adams and Styles left the TSBD at the back, and walked around the building at the side of the railway yard. Adams heard a DPD radio broadcast on a motorbike parked in front of the main entrance at 12:36. There is no way Adams could have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, walk around three sides of the building and be near the motorbike within one minute.
Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth on their way back from the roof, which is when Dorothy Garner could have seen them.
Except Garner told Martha Strout that she saw Baker and Truly come up after Adams and Styles has gone down.
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Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running.
Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?
Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels.
Mr. BELIN - You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS - Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.
Obviously not the exact shoe, but the right heel size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM7V1cJC/3-inch-heel-lady-shoe.jpg)
JohnM
And your point is?
Why are you changing the subject and running from answering my questions?
Care to explain to me how Adams and Styles could have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, when both men were not even back in the building until at least 5 minutes after the shots?
Or, alternatively, if you are going to claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until several minutes after the shots, how can Dorothy Garner say that they went down before Baker and Truly came up?
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And your point is?
Why are you changing the subject and running from answering my questions?
Sorry Martin, I only debate Conspiracy Theorists, fence sitters need not apply.
JohnM
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Sorry Martin, I only debate Conspiracy Theorists, fence sitters need not apply.
JohnM
Yeah, that's what I thought. Your little hit and run game backfired and now you don't know what to do ....
You either understand there is an obvious problem with Adam's testimony re where she saw Shelley and Lovelady, which makes you look disingenuous at best.
Or you demonstrate that you don't know the evidence as you pretend to do.
Thank you for playing.....
Btw, I didn't ask for a debate, just two answers to simple straight forward questions, which you apparently can not answer. Thumb1:
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It sounds like she didn't cross through the stockroom to the stairs right away and that it was some time after the shooting, if women were arriving back from the street.
It sounds like? You seem to have missed that there were windows on the side of the building also. Actually, there was one next to the stairs. There could have been women watching the parade at those windows.
Watching the motorcade from the west side?
Adams says not a word about women arriving back from the street.
But Styles says they first went to the passenger elevator and waited, and that it was more like minutes, than seconds, when they started down the stairs.
I don't think co-workers ran into the stockroom from their windows on the south side within seconds of the shooting because that would mean they too were headed for the stairs. Doesn't make sense they would abandon their windows and return to work within seconds of the last shot. Therefore Adams and Styles must have crossed through the stockroom a few minutes after the last shot. This fits in with Styles recollections.
The women then started down the steps after Truly and Baker had gone up; the two women passed by Shelley and Lovelady on the first.
Physically impossible because Shelley and Lovelady, by their own statements, did not enter the building on the first floor until aound 12:35.
Adams and Styles left the TSBD at the back, and walked around the building at the side of the railway yard. Adams heard a DPD radio broadcast on a motorbike parked in front of the main entrance at 12:36. There is no way Adams could have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, walk around three sides of the building and be near the motorbike within one minute.
"Second floor or the fourth floor window". There are other times when "second floor" or "second window" were mentioned; one at 12:38, for example.
Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth on their way back from the roof, which is when Dorothy Garner could have seen them.
Except Garner told Martha Strout that she saw Baker and Truly come up after Adams and Styles has gone down.
She assumed Truly had taken the stairs when she saw him. Garner's claim as written by Strout ("Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.") doesn't say that Garnet saw Adams/Styles go down nor does it say the interval between when she thought the two went down and when she saw Truly. Garner also doesn't indicate that the policeman she saw with Truly was a motorcycle officer.
Garner's account is second-hand. She wasn't questioned in person and asked for detail.
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Harkness provides the time stamp for the Adams and Styles departure from the 4th floor. He has the back of the building sealed off at 12:36. They encounter him or the other officers he alludes to and are told to return to the front of the building. This all dovetails with the Shelley-- Lovelady encounter described by both Adams and Styles, and Shelley and Lovelady, that had taken place moments earlier. Also matches their description of going directly to the back of the building after having left the fourth floor. They most likely never left the fourth floor until 12:35 or later.
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Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
====================
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
------------------------------------------------
Styles and Adams were stopped behind the TSBD by an officer, presumably Sargant Harkness, and told to return to the building.
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
There is a railroad spur running parallel to the dock behind the TSBD. That is where Adams encountered the officer.
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Sandra Styles confirms they encountered a policeman at the rear of the TSBD:
FBI Statement 3/19/64
"...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."
-----------------------------------------
Harkness time stamps the encounter by stating when he sealed off the rear of the building at 12:36
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
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Watching the motorcade from the west side?
But Styles says they first went to the passenger elevator and waited, and that it was more like minutes, than seconds, when they started down the stairs.
I don't think co-workers ran into the stockroom from their windows on the south side within seconds of the shooting because that would mean they too were headed for the stairs. Doesn't make sense they would abandon their windows and return to work within seconds of the last shot. Therefore Adams and Styles must have crossed through the stockroom a few minutes after the last shot. This fits in with Styles recollections.
"Second floor or the fourth floor window". There are other times when "second floor" or "second window" were mentioned; one at 12:38, for example.
She assumed Truly had taken the stairs when she saw him. Garner's claim as written by Strout ("Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.") doesn't say that Garnet saw Adams/Styles go down nor does it say the interval between when she thought the two went down and when she saw Truly. Garner also doesn't indicate that the policeman she saw with Truly was a motorcycle officer.
Garner's account is second-hand. She wasn't questioned in person and asked for detail.
Watching the motorcade from the west side?
And watch the motorcade go in the direction of the triple underpass? Sure, why not...
Not that it matters much, as Adams merely confirmed that she saw nobody, other than female co-workers, on the 4th floor.
But Styles says they first went to the passenger elevator and waited, and that it was more like minutes, than seconds, when they started down the stairs.
Where exactly does Styles say that? And why do you prefer that version over the other conflicting versions she told in several interviews? In one of those she actually said that if Adams said they left straight away after the shots, that's what must have happened.
I don't think co-workers ran into the stockroom from their windows on the south side within seconds of the shooting because that would mean they too were headed for the stairs. Doesn't make sense they would abandon their windows and return to work within seconds of the last shot. Therefore Adams and Styles must have crossed through the stockroom a few minutes after the last shot. This fits in with Styles recollections.
What you think isn't really relevant. Your "logic" that Adams and Styles "must not have crossed through the stockroom a few minutes after the shots" is non sequitur and does not fit the known facts. One of those facts is that Adams testified;
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
She also stated that she went back into the building through the main entrance on Elm Street, after hearing a report on the police radio (on a police bike) which said that according to a witness the shots were fired from the TSBD. The DPD radio transcripts have that transmission at 12:36. If Adams and Styles have crossed the stockroom "a few minutes after the shots", there is no way that Adams could have been at the front of the building at 12:36.
"Second floor or the fourth floor window". There are other times when "second floor" or "second window" were mentioned; one at 12:38, for example.
You must have a different transcript than I, because I saw a mention of the second floor at 12:37 (directly after the time stamp) but not at 12:38
She assumed Truly had taken the stairs when she saw him. Garner's claim as written by Strout ("Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.") doesn't say that Garnet saw Adams/Styles go down nor does it say the interval between when she thought the two went down and when she saw Truly. Garner also doesn't indicate that the policeman she saw with Truly was a motorcycle officer.
The only one assuming things is you. You don't know what Garner assumed. Garner's statement is clear; she saw Truly and a police officer (which can only be Baker, unless you want to argue that Truly ran up the stairs twice with two different officers) after Adams went downstairs. The mere fact that Garner did not say - according to Strout - that she saw Adams and Styles go down the stairs doesn't mean it didn't happen.
According to Garner Adams (and thus Styles) went downstairs before Truly and the police officer came up. By simply saying it that way, it is beyond obvious that Garner knew the women had already gone down.
Garner's account is second-hand.
By this reasoning all FBI 302 reports (claiming somebody said something) as well as all the interrogation reports are "second-hand", whatever that means
She wasn't questioned in person and asked for detail.
Indeed, which makes what she told Strout - and what Strout wrote to Rankin - so much more credible. Instead of following up such a crucial piece of evidence re the sequence of events, Rankin did nothing with the letter and just put it in Adams' file, where Barry Ernest found it many years later. Adams (and Garner) being left out of the reconstruction, despite the fact that they were crucial witnesses, is a clear indication of a cover up.
When a prosecutor hides a crucial piece of evidence from the defense, there usually is something very dubious going on. What Rankin did was the same as hiding evidence from the defense.
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Harkness provides the time stamp for the Adams and Styles departure from the 4th floor. He has the back of the building sealed off at 12:36. They encounter him or the other officers he alludes to and are told to return to the front of the building. This all dovetails with the Shelley-- Lovelady encounter described by both Adams and Styles, and Shelley and Lovelady, that had taken place moments earlier. Also matches their description of going directly to the back of the building after having left the fourth floor. They most likely never left the fourth floor until 12:35 or later.
-------------------------------
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
====================
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
------------------------------------------------
Styles and Adams were stopped behind the TSBD by an officer, presumably Sargant Harkness, and told to return to the building.
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
There is a railroad spur running parallel to the dock behind the TSBD. That is where Adams encountered the officer.
------------------------------
Sandra Styles confirms they encountered a policeman at the rear of the TSBD:
FBI Statement 3/19/64
"...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."
-----------------------------------------
Harkness time stamps the encounter by stating when he sealed off the rear of the building at 12:36
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
You are making several incorrect assumptions for which there obviously is no evidence.
The first one is that the building was already locked down when Adams and Styles were stopped by a policeman. It wasn't.
The easiest way to block anybody from leaving the building was to stop them as they came down from the loading dock on the only stairs available. If the building had indeed been sealed off when they left it, the women would have been turned back as soon as they came through the back door. and on those stairs.
That's not what happened;
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
This confirms that Adams and Styles were able to leave the building and walk all the way to the railroad yard. In other words, the women left the building when it was not closed off.
Your second incorrect assumption is that the girls did not leave the 4th floor until 12:35 or later.
If the women indeed left the 4th floor at 12:35, or later, it would have been physically impossible for them to (1) go down the stairs, (2) leave the building at the back, (3) walk to the railway yard, (4) being stopped by a police officer, (5) walking around the building to the main entrance on Elm street and for Adams to be there at 12:36 or 12:37 to hear a report on the DPD radio from a police bike parked there.
Also, Dorothy Garner said that Adams went down before she saw Truly and a police man came up. Is it your claim that Truly and Baker did not get to the 4th floor until 12:35 or later?
Your third incorrect assumption is that the women were stopped by Harkness but the DPD radio transcript shows that Harkness was making a call on channel 2 at 12:36 about a witness who said that shots came from the 5th floor of the TSBD.
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The events of 11/22/63 only happened one way. The best and easiest way to establish what really happened is by putting all the known information in a timeline and see what fits and what doesn't. Several months ago, I did exactly that and this was the result;
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2585.msg93118.html#msg93118
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
towards the railroad yard
Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
just left of the stairs
Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
The building is not yet sealed off.
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
(where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
officers or secret service.
Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the back
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie or be wrong.
-
The events of 11/22/63 only happened one way. The best and easiest way to establish what really happened is by putting all the known information in a timeline and see what fits and what doesn't. Several months ago, I did exactly that and this was the result;
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2585.msg93118.html#msg93118
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
12.30.00 Last shot
12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
towards the railroad yard
Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
just left of the stairs
Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.
12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs
12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.
12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
The building is not yet sealed off.
12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
(where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
officers or secret service.
Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Shelley only saw Eddie Piper
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the back
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie or be wrong.
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie or be wrong.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door just left of the stairs Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
Sorry Martin, I cannot agree .....
A) ...Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor so he did not descend from anywhere ( he probably was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when Adams and Styles descended the stairs)
B) If Baker and Truly were standing in front of the elevators in the 1st floor shipping room, I seriously doubt that Adams and Styles could have failed to see them....
-
The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie or be wrong.
12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door just left of the stairs Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
run towards the stairs, just missing the women
Sorry Martin, I cannot agree .....
A) ...Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor so he did not descend from anywhere ( he probably was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when Adams and Styles descended the stairs)
B) If Baker and Truly were standing in front of the elevators in the 1st floor shipping room, I seriously doubt that Adams and Styles could have failed to see them....
Sorry Martin, I cannot agree .....
A) ...Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor so he did not descend from anywhere ( he probably was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when Adams and Styles descended the stairs)
You have overlooked what I wrote at the beginning of the post;
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
B) If Baker and Truly were standing in front of the elevators in the 1st floor shipping room, I seriously doubt that Adams and Styles could have failed to see them....
I agree, that's why I said the times are approximations. There is no way that Adams/Styles and Truly/Baker could not have seen eachother in such close proximity of eachother. More likely, and I'm talking about seconds here, did Adams/Styles leave the building just before Truly/Baker got to the back of the shipping department.
Please remember Walt, this timeline is intended to confirm the most likely sequence of events, not to pin down each individual event to the exact second.
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Adams heard a DPD radio broadcast on a motorbike parked in front of the main entrance at 12:36. There is no way Adams could have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, walk around three sides of the building and be near the motorbike within one minute.
Besides, Bowles made it very clear that the clocks used by the dispatchers did not give real time to begin with.
They actually did not match the master clock (which gave "official" time), which in turn did not give real time either.
JohnM
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JohnM
What are you doing, Johnny? Didn't you just write this;
Sorry Martin, I only debate Conspiracy Theorists, fence sitters need not apply.
JohnM
so, why do you want to debate me now?
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What are you doing, Johnny? Didn't you just write this;
so, why do you want to debate me now?
No you are debating yourself and you are losing....badly.
JohnM
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No you are debating yourself and you are losing....badly.
JohnM
Get back to me when you are making sense....
Your pathetic "headline only" hit and run pieces simply do not work.
As per usual you are not looking at the bigger picture, because you know you will lose that argument every time.
After hearing the radio call, Adams tried to get back into the building, which by then had been sealed off.
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.
There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---
Mr. BELIN - Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?
Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
According to the narrative, the building was sealed of at 12:36.... Go figure!
And btw Bowles did say the clocks used by DPD dispatchers did not reflect real time. Under normal circumstances they could be off by a minute or so. He also explained to the HSCA that synchronization of the clocks wasn't normally done during busy periods. The radio traffic after JFK was shot was probably as busy as it could get, which explains that the time stamps could easily be nearly correct at around 12:30 and substantially off an hour later (because that's where your were trying to go, weren't you? :D)
So, how am I debating myself and losing, Johnny? Go on then, tell us all.....
Btw, sorry if I destroyed your "gotcha" wet dream....
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the radio traffic after JFK was shot was probably as busy as it could get, which explains that the time stamps could easily be nearly correct at around 12:30
(https://i.postimg.cc/13P79zsV/12-30-in-sync.jpg)
JohnM
Meaningless gif.
You know for a fact that the Hertz clock was 100% correct?
JohnM
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JohnM
For somebody who is not debating me, you seem rather desperate to debate me :D
And yes, I did ask you how you knew the Hertz clock was correct and as per usual I never got a reply.
You are either not very good at answering questions or you simply understand that answering them makes you look silly.
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Sorry Martin, I cannot agree .....
A) ...Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor so he did not descend from anywhere ( he probably was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when Adams and Styles descended the stairs)
You have overlooked what I wrote at the beginning of the post;
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
B) If Baker and Truly were standing in front of the elevators in the 1st floor shipping room, I seriously doubt that Adams and Styles could have failed to see them....
I agree, that's why I said the times are approximations. There is no way that Adams/Styles and Truly/Baker could not have seen eachother in such close proximity of eachother. More likely, and I'm talking about seconds here, did Adams/Styles leave the building just before Truly/Baker got to the back of the shipping department.
Please remember Walt, this timeline is intended to confirm the most likely sequence of events, not to pin down each individual event to the exact second.
Ok, Sorry, I over looked this.....
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
I'm not sure that I understand.... Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?
I'm 99% certain that there was no sniper firing from the sixth floor SE corner window. However Howard Brennan did swear that he saw a 165 pond man who was dressed in khaki and STANDING and AIMING a rifle from a sixth floor window.
Naturally Brennan could NOT have seen that man behind the partially open window at the SE corner of the sixth floor because it would have been physically impossible for a 5 ' 9" man to STAND UPRIGHT behind that window and aim a rifle down at Elm street. ( If he had fired the bullet would have hit the cement ledge beneath the window)
So unless Brennan mixed up the chronology ( and he saw the man at about the same circa as Arnold Rowland) then he hd to have seen the man behind one of the west end windows.
Personally, I believe that Brennan did see the khaki clad "deputy sheriff security guard " ( recall that Rowland thought the guy was a security guard) earlier than he said he did, which he said was DURING the shooting. I think that in the excitement of the event he morphed the earlier sighting of the standing man behind the window and scanning the crowd below with the scope ( Rowland said the "security guard's rifle had a large scope mounted on it) on the rifle.
The bottom line i'm 99% sure that there were no shots fired from the TSBD ....and i'm 100% sure that no shot was fired from the SE corner window.
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Ok, Sorry, I over looked this.....
For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"
I'm not sure that I understand.... Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?
I'm 99% certain that there was no sniper firing from the sixth floor SE corner window. However Howard Brennan did swear that he saw a 165 pond man who was dressed in khaki and STANDING and AIMING a rifle from a sixth floor window.
Naturally Brennan could NOT have seen that man behind the partially open window at the SE corner of the sixth floor because it would have been physically impossible for a 5 ' 9" man to STAND UPRIGHT behind that window and aim a rifle down at Elm street. ( If he had fired the bullet would have hit the cement ledge beneath the window)
So unless Brennan mixed up the chronology ( and he saw the man at about the same circa as Arnold Rowland) then he hd to have seen the man behind one of the west end windows.
Personally, I believe that Brennan did see the khaki clad "deputy sheriff security guard " ( recall that Rowland thought the guy was a security guard) earlier than he said he did, which he said was DURING the shooting. I think that in the excitement of the event he morphed the earlier sighting of the standing man behind the window and scanning the crowd below with the scope ( Rowland said the "security guard's rifle had a large scope mounted on it) on the rifle.
The bottom line i'm 99% sure that there were no shots fired from the TSBD ....and i'm 100% sure that no shot was fired from the SE corner window.
Walt, my timeline was/is merely a hypothesis based on as much of the evidentiary information that is available.
Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?
That requires a determination which I am not willing or able to make based on the available evidence. It would be most helpful if it had been determined that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor had actually been fired.
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Walt, my timeline was/is merely a hypothesis based on as much of the evidentiary information that is available.
Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?
That requires a determination which I am not willing or able to make based on the available evidence. It would be most helpful if it had been determined that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor had actually been fired.
Based on the fact that the FBI refused to test the rifle until it had been cleaned a oiled, I'd say the rifle was in poor condition,
( dirty and rusty) .... And if the rifle's bore was dirty and corroded, it could NOT have been fired on 11-22-63....
If it had been fired on 11-22-63 the bore would have been relatively clean, because the projectiles and hot gasses, traveling through that barrel would have blown any dirt out of the barrel... But the FBI refused to fire the rifle until it had been cleaned and oiled.
And there is a whole host of other evidence that the carcano was NOT fired that day.....One of the spent shells was badly dented and it could not have been fired that day.... ( and being ejected into cardboard boxes most certainly would not dent a carcano casing.)
And there's still more evidence that totally crushes the theory that the Carcan was the murder weapon.....
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Based on the fact that the FBI refused to test the rifle until it had been cleaned a oiled, I'd say the rifle was in poor condition,
( dirty and rusty) .... And if the rifle's bore was dirty and corroded, it could NOT have been fired on 11-22-63....
If it had been fired on 11-22-63 the bore would have been relatively clean, because the projectiles and hot gasses, traveling through that barrel would have blown any dirt out of the barrel... But the FBI refused to fire the rifle until it had been cleaned and oiled.
And there is a whole host of other evidence that the carcano was NOT fired that day.....One of the spent shells was badly dented and it could not have been fired that day.... ( and being ejected into cardboard boxes most certainly would not dent a carcano casing.)
And there's still more evidence that totally crushes the theory that the Carcan was the murder weapon.....
I can understand your reasoning and it raises some good points. The main one being that an investigative body like the FBI should indeed have made sure that a rifle found near the alleged crime scene was actually fired or not. I can not think of one good reason for them not wanting to find out, but it seems they were not interested.
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I can understand your reasoning and it raises some good points. The main one being that an investigative body like the FBI should indeed have made sure that a rifle found near the alleged crime scene was actually fired or not. I can not think of one good reason for them not wanting to find out, but it seems they were not interested.
That's because the director of the FBI was one of the key conspirators....
-
The events of 11/22/63 only happened one way. The best and easiest way to establish what really happened is by putting all the known information in a timeline and see what fits and what doesn't. Several months ago, I did exactly that and this was the result;
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2585.msg93118.html#msg93118 [...]
I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.
Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:
1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.
Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.
Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
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I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.
Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:
1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.
Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.
Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one.
The "problems" you see are imaginary. Ever since you implicitely claimed, in another thread, that the ambulance that took Tippit to the hospital was driving at 30 mph, I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously.
Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:
1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door.
And that took an estimated five minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been much more because at around 12:36 the back of the building was sealed off.
Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.
No, Lovelady didn't testify that. He did not say he thought it was Adams.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
He, in fact, said - without being asked specifically - that he wouldn't swear it was Vickie. Now why would he say that, when he wasn't asked? Could it be the WC lawyers had already talked to him prior to his testimony and he simply did not feel comfortable naming somebody just because they wanted him to?
Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
So what?
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.
Non sequitur. Dorothy Garner told Martha Strout a different story. Your story, as so often, does not match all the known facts. Also for this to be even remotely true, quod non, Adams and Styles, before going down, would have had to wait until Baker and Truly had reached the 4th floor and gone up the the 5th. However, Adams testified she did not see Truly or a motorcycle police officer at any time, which would be strange if the men had come up to the 4th floor and Adams and Styles were still there.
Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
And this is where your "theory" falls apart. Shelley and Lovelady returned to the building at around 12:35 or 12:36, just before the back of the building was sealed off by police. For Adams and Styles to see the men at that moment, means they most likely wouldn't have made it out of the building due to the lockdown. But let's, for argument's sake, say they did, the girls were on heels and had the walk around three sides of the building, over railway tracks and talk to a police man who stopped them (in the railway yard). There is no way that Adams and Styles could have made it to the front entrance in two minutes.
Even worse, Styles entered the building straight away and was not stopped. That means she got there before the building was locked down (which apparently happened at 12:36 or 12:37)! Adams hung around outside to talk to some girls and it was then that she heard the radio broadcast. When she, subsequently, tried to enter the building it was sealed off and she was initally stopped.
Your timeline doesn't add up and does not match the known facts. That's what happens when you try to focus on one piece of uncorroborated information and ignore everything else.
It seems you simply do not understand or want to understand how the timeline fits together, so let me try to explain by asking some questions, you probably will not answer.
1. The front entrance of the building was sealed off at around 12:36. Sandra Styles was not stopped when she entered the building. Do you agree that Styles (and Adams) must have arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest?
2. If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?
3. If Adams and Styles did in fact leave the building at 12:23 (or perhaps even earlier), how could Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady entering the building at around 12:35?
My timeline provides the most probable explanation for this discrepancy; Adams and Styles saw Shelley and Lovelady, not when the men entered the building, but when they were still standing on the railway yard, where Adams and Styles passed them on their way to the front of the building. Witnesses do not always get everything correct, even in their testimony under oath.
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The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.
Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others. Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later. The time it takes to walk through the building and meet Harkness and officers in the back of the building.
Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
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This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
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The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.
Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others. Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later. The time it takes to walk through the building and meet Harkness and officers in the back of the building.
Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.
Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
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This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
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Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.
Really?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
As far as Harkness is concerned, you might be right, because he wasn't the one to stop Adams and Styles. At 12:36, he was in fact making a radio call about a witness who said the shots were fired from a window of the TSBD.
Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others.
Then why don't you explain in detail how they corroborate eachother instead of making a vague (and highly incorrect) statement that tells me nothing
Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later.
Your personal opinion isn't evidence. Nor is it relevant. And no, it didn't turn out they never left the 4th floor until 12:35. There is no way the women can leave the building at the back, let alone the 4th floor, at 12:35 and be at the front entrance of the building at 12:36, in time for Styles to reenter the building just before it was sealed off.
Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.
It doesn't matter how late the back of the building was sealed off, at least not where it concerns Adams and Styles. After the police man told them (in the railway yard) to return to the building, they went to the front entrance, where Styles entered the building without being stopped. When Adams tried to enter, a couple of minutes later, she was stopped as the building was sealed off by then.
So, here's a simple question for you.
After Adams and Styles came down the stairs, they left the building at the loading dock at the back, by using the only stairs available there. They then ran towards the railway yard (which mean running along just about the whole north side of the building. When they got to the railway yard, a police man stopped them and told them to go back. They then ran along the entire side of the building to the dead end street in front of the TSBD. There they turned left and ran all the way to the other side of the building where the main entrance is. They arrived there at no later than 12:36 or 12:37, because when Styles entered the building it was not yet sealed off.
If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?
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Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says that after coming down from the fourth floor she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time. Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj7tmvGQ/adamshelleyencounter-Tim-zps3a2b3da4.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhxQJCtv/adams-vickie-0032-1-zpsbb7yxln7.jpg)
JohnM
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Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time. Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj7tmvGQ/adamshelleyencounter-Tim-zps3a2b3da4.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhxQJCtv/adams-vickie-0032-1-zpsbb7yxln7.jpg)
JohnM
And there he is again, the guy who says he doesn't want to debate me, is desperately trying to debate me again. Go figure!
Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And we should, of course, ignore completely that the preponderance of actual facts (now there's a novel concept for you!) show it was physically impossible for Adams (and Styles) to see Shelley and Lovelady (who both didn't see the women) less than a minute before Styles reentered the building at the front entrance, after walking around three sides of the building.
Biased propagandists peddle and perpetuate lies they have blindly accepted. Serious people looking at this try to determine what is logical, physically possible and fits the rest of the known facts.....
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.
For anybody who doesn't follow what goes on on this forum; what Johnny is trying to do here is using misrepresentation of the facts in a vain attempt to discredit/attack the messenger. So all you really need to do is ask yourself why he is attacking the messenger instead of actually debating the known facts. The answer will tell you all you need to know!
Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has claimed or posted that police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time. I do, however, remember a man named Bowles, who happened to be in charge of the DPD dispatchers, telling the HSCA that the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are not real time, which by itself calls into question the credibility of the DPD recordings/transcripts. Does that help?
The one thing that should really be considered is the fact that in his entire post John Mytton does not address in detail any of the more than obvious problems with the official narrative re Victoria Adams. Just like he always does, he stays on the surface of the official narrative, which tells me that he clearly understands that as soon as he starts digging deeper his favorite fairytale starts falling apart.
Kinda strange, don't you think? If somebody is so convinced that his version of events is the truth, then why is he so afraid to enter into a discussion about it, to the extent that he is even running from answering simple questions. Says it all, really....
Let's see if Johnny can now answer the two questions he has been running from for days;
Care to explain to me how Adams and Styles could have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, when both men were not even back in the building until at least 5 minutes after the shots?
Or, alternatively, if you are going to claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until several minutes after the shots, how can Dorothy Garner say that they went down before Baker and Truly came up?
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Within say 3 minutes after the shots Officer Barnett ran 20 ft past the TSBD so that he could watch the north side of the TSBD & the fire escape.
Within 2 minutes after the shots (actually probly 80 sec) Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles exited the TSBD via the Houston loading dock & went southwest towards the picket fence railyard to see what had happened. When they got near the railyard they were sent back by an Officer. Barnett didn’t see Adams & Styles exit the loading dock koz he arrived after. Styles said that they went to the elevator before going to the back stairs, but i have not shown that detour to the elevator in my drawing.
Romack was probly only about 30 yd from Barnett, & he mentioned seeing Barnett, but Romack didn’t ever mention Adams & Styles.
Rackley was say 100 yd away, & he never mentioned Adams & Styles, nor Barnett, nor Worrell (or some guy). However he stood there for only 5 or 10 minutes, hence he might have left before Worrell (or some guy) did a runner.
Lee, a workmate of Romack, was standing with Rackley for a while, but we dont know what Lee saw or didn't saw.
Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door. Garner (who was by then watching the bedlam in the railyard carpark by looking out of a western window near the stairs) saw Baker & Truly go up the stairs past after Adams & Styles had already gone down the stairs.
Adams & Styles said that they did not hear Oswald coming down the stairs behind them. CTers use that to claim that Oswald had not come down the stairs at all, but they are wrong, Oswald came down the stairs 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. When Oswald got to the 2nd floor he heard Adams & Styles klopping down the stairs & he ducked into the lunch room. After they had passed Oswald heard Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs (or he heard Truly yelling up the elevator shaft) & he ducked into the lunchroom for a second time. Later he got a coke & walked throo the 2nd floor office of Jeraldean Reid (instead of using the corridor) & he went down the front stairs & exited the front doors.
Oswald left his jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor. Praps he forgot, or more likely he didn't want to walk throo police on the first floor to get to the Domino Room which was adjacent to the Houston loading dock, the jacket was on the window sill. Oswald walked north up Houston to get his jacket, did a U-turn when he saw Officer Barnett, & walked south down Houston (Buell Frazier saw him), after which Oswald crossed Houston & then Elm.
Hoffman, 382 yd away (from Barnett), on the Stemmons overpass, said he saw 2 men running out of the rear of the TSBD & up along the railway & then east, but he didn't mention Adams & Styles.
What he called the rear might have been the angled western side TSBD extension where there was a loading dock & carport & 2 pedestrian doors.
Romack & Rackley might not have seen the 2 doors if there was a carriage parked next to the TSBD (ie as in this pix), but they would have seen the 2 men when they were running along the railway, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
And Adams & Styles would have seen the 2 men, & they might even have had to get out of their way.
Adams & Styles would have been 320 yd from Hoffman as they walked along the angled 70 yd length of the 2 loading docks (& carport), yet Hoffman didn't mention seeing Adams & Styles.
At a later date Hoffman changed his story (re the 2 men), he now claimed that he saw a shooter & accomplice at the picket fence near the triple underpass.
In one version one of the guys runs north along a railway, in another version both guys run along the railway.
Romack & Rackley would have been able to see much of that, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
Sam Pate & Josh Dowdell jnr arrived via roadworks in a radio car 4 minutes after the shots. Romack moved a barricade to let Pate drive to near the TSBD.
They parked there untill Tippit was shot. About 5 or 10 minutes after they got there Pate saw a young guy, possibly James Richard Worrell, run along the TSBD & then cross Houston & then go east along the railway (but Dowdell did not recall that). And Romack too did not recall seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack watched closely for only about another 4 minutes after Pate got there. Romack stayed in that area until Pate left, but he did not bother to watch closely after lots of police moved in, so praps he missed seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack seems to have missed seeing Adams & Styles too. Rackley might have exited the truck yard before Worrell (or some guy) did his runner (he stood in the truck yard for only 5 to 10 minutes).
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QsPZSYt/romack-barnett-adams-styles-worrel-pate-osw-ald.jpg)
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Within say 3 minutes after the shots Officer Barnett ran 20 ft past the TSBD so that he could watch the north side of the TSBD & the fire escape.
Within 2 minutes after the shots (actually probly 80 sec) Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles exited the TSBD via the Houston loading dock & went southwest towards the picket fence railyard to see what had happened. When they got near the railyard they were sent back by an Officer. Barnett didn’t see Adams & Styles exit the loading dock koz he arrived after. Styles said that they went to the elevator before going to the back stairs, but i have not shown that detour to the elevator in my drawing.
Romack was probly only about 30 yd from Barnett, & he mentioned seeing Barnett, but Romack didn’t ever mention Adams & Styles.
Rackley was say 100 yd away, & he never mentioned Adams & Styles, nor Barnett, nor Worrell (or some guy). However he stood there for only 5 or 10 minutes, hence he might have left before Worrell (or some guy) did a runner.
Lee, a workmate of Romack, was standing with Rackley for a while, but we dont know what Lee saw or didn't saw.
Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door. Garner (who was by then watching the bedlam in the railyard carpark by looking out of a western window near the stairs) saw Baker & Truly go up the stairs past after Adams & Styles had already gone down the stairs.
Adams & Styles said that they did not hear Oswald coming down the stairs behind them. CTers use that to claim that Oswald had not come down the stairs at all, but they are wrong, Oswald came down the stairs 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. When Oswald got to the 2nd floor he heard Adams & Styles klopping down the stairs & he ducked into the lunch room. After they had passed Oswald heard Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs (or he heard Truly yelling up the elevator shaft) & he ducked into the lunchroom for a second time. Later he got a coke & walked throo the 2nd floor office of Jeraldean Reid (instead of using the corridor) & he went down the front stairs & exited the front doors.
Oswald left his jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor. Praps he forgot, or more likely he didn't want to walk throo police on the first floor to get to the Domino Room which was adjacent to the Houston loading dock, the jacket was on the window sill. Oswald walked north up Houston to get his jacket, did a U-turn when he saw Officer Barnett, & walked south down Houston (Buell Frazier saw him), after which Oswald crossed Houston & then Elm.
Hoffman, 382 yd away (from Barnett), on the Stemmons overpass, said he saw 2 men running out of the rear of the TSBD & up along the railway & then east, but he didn't mention Adams & Styles.
What he called the rear might have been the angled western side TSBD extension where there was a loading dock & carport & 2 pedestrian doors.
Romack & Rackley might not have seen the 2 doors if there was a carriage parked next to the TSBD (ie as in this pix), but they would have seen the 2 men when they were running along the railway, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
And Adams & Styles would have seen the 2 men, & they might even have had to get out of their way.
Adams & Styles would have been 320 yd from Hoffman as they walked along the angled 70 yd length of the 2 loading docks (& carport), yet Hoffman didn't mention seeing Adams & Styles.
At a later date Hoffman changed his story (re the 2 men), he now claimed that he saw a shooter & accomplice at the picket fence near the triple underpass.
In one version one of the guys runs north along a railway, in another version both guys run along the railway.
Romack & Rackley would have been able to see much of that, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
Sam Pate & Josh Dowdell jnr arrived via roadworks in a radio car 4 minutes after the shots. Romack moved a barricade to let Pate drive to near the TSBD.
They parked there untill Tippit was shot. About 5 or 10 minutes after they got there Pate saw a young guy, possibly James Richard Worrell, run along the TSBD & then cross Houston & then go east along the railway (but Dowdell did not recall that). And Romack too did not recall seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack watched closely for only about another 4 minutes after Pate got there. Romack stayed in that area until Pate left, but he did not bother to watch closely after lots of police moved in, so praps he missed seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack seems to have missed seeing Adams & Styles too. Rackley might have exited the truck yard before Worrell (or some guy) did his runner (he stood in the truck yard for only 5 to 10 minutes).
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QsPZSYt/romack-barnett-adams-styles-worrel-pate-osw-ald.jpg)
Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.
This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.
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I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.
Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:
1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.
Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.
Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40
Thanks Mitch, the most relevant piece of evidence re the time Victoria Adams listened to the Police Radio was when she "panicked" after hearing that the shots apparently came from the fourth floor. After running down the stairs and running to the railroad tracks and quickly moving to the front of the building she "paused there to listen to the report on the police radio" and "listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired" which is a definite time stamp and 12:40 is more than sufficient for a Lovelady/Shelley sighting.
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.
Miss ADAMS - ..... There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Btw on the McAdams Police Tape Transcript page the earliest 4th floor reference on either channel that I could find was 12:45.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0tyFmpt/12-45-police-radio.jpg)
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/
JohnM
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Thanks Mitch, the most relevant piece of evidence re the time Victoria Adams listened to the Police Radio was when she "panicked" after hearing that the shots apparently came from the fourth floor. After running down the stairs and running to the railroad tracks and quickly moving to the front of the building she "paused there to listen to the report on the police radio" and "listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired" which is a definite time stamp and 12:40 is more than sufficient for a Lovelady/Shelley sighting.
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.
Miss ADAMS - ..... There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Btw on the McAdams Police Tape Transcript page the earliest 4th floor reference on either channel that I could find was 12:45.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0tyFmpt/12-45-police-radio.jpg)
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/
JohnM
None of this is of any significance. Sandra Styles and Victoria Adams arrived together at the front entrance. Styles went inside straight away and wasn't stopped, which means she entered prior to the building being sealed off (at 12:36 or 12:37)
Adams testified;
Mr. BELIN - You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?
Miss ADAMS - Well, I didn't go back in right away.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.
There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---
Mr. BELIN - Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?
Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
The fact that Adams did not enter the building straight away tells you nothing about the time she and Styles arrived at the front of the building.
Adams simply decided to stay outside longer than Styles. The mere fact that Styles entered the building without being stopped not only justifies the conclusion that the girls arrived at the front entrance before it was sealed off (at 12:36 or 12:37) but also completely destroys your fake suggestion that Adams didn't arrive at the front entrance before 12:40.
Stop showing us just how little you know about the actual facts of this case! Your desperate attempts to defend the indefensible are going nowhere.
Btw, why am I not surprised that you ignored my previous post (which completely destroyed your arguments) and moved on to another, without - still - not answering my questions. Your weakness is getting more and more exposed!
This superficial stuff is really the "best" you've got, isn't it.... :D
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Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.
This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.
Nope. My theory can accommodate Truly & Baker entering the first floor storeroom at say 75 sec after the shots to say 85 sec.
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Nope. My theory can accommodate Truly & Baker entering the first floor storeroom at say 75 sec after the shots to say 85 sec.
Rather than just making that claim, why don't you just show us?
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Rather than just making that claim, why don't you just show us?
Ok i had a closer look.
My theory needs Adams/Styles to reach the 2nd floor at say 58 sec to 63 sec, ie 10-15 sec after Oswald (who took say 48 sec). Longer than 15 sec wouldnt work, koz by then Oswald would have already decided whether to use the back stairs or the front stairs & he would have left that area. Less than 10 sec wouldnt work, koz A/S would have seen Oswald walking from one leg of the stairs to the other leg of the stairs, on their 4th floor.
My theory needs A/S to enter the 1st floor stock room at say 68 sec to 73 sec, say 0-10 sec before Truly/Baker enter the stock room (at say 68 sec to 83 sec). If T/B entered before A/S then T/B would have been more likely to have seen A/S walking from the stairs to the Houston door. If A/S entered more than 10 sec before T/B then Oswald would have had time to decide what to do & to use the back stairs to get to the 1st floor & would have met T/S on the 1st floor rather than on the 2nd floor. Or, if Oswald had decided to use the front stairs then he would have already headed off that way (either throo the 2nd floor office, or along the corridor), & the lunchroom encounter with Baker would not have happened.
My theory has a tight timeline, but it works if T/B took longer to reach the 2nd floor than the usual estimate of i think 75 sec after the shots. 88 sec to 108 sec works better for my theory.
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Ok i had a closer look.
My theory needs Adams/Styles to reach the 2nd floor at say 58 sec to 63 sec, ie 10-15 sec after Oswald (who took say 48 sec). Longer than 15 sec wouldnt work, koz by then Oswald would have already decided whether to use the back stairs or the front stairs & he would have left that area. Less than 10 sec wouldnt work, koz A/S would have seen Oswald walking from one leg of the stairs to the other leg of the stairs, on their 4th floor.
My theory needs A/S to enter the 1st floor stock room at say 68 sec to 73 sec, say 0-10 sec before Truly/Baker enter the stock room (at say 68 sec to 83 sec). If T/B entered before A/S then T/B would have been more likely to have seen A/S walking from the stairs to the Houston door. If A/S entered more than 10 sec before T/S then Oswald would have had time to decide what to do & to use the back stairs to get to the 1st floor & would have met T/S on the 1st floor rather than on the 2nd floor. Or, if Oswald had decided to use the front stairs then he would have already headed off that way (either throo the 2nd floor office, or along the corridor), & the lunchroom encounter with Baker would not have happened.
My theory has a tight timeline, but it works if T/B took longer to reach the 2nd floor than the usual estimate of i think 75 sec after the shots. 88 sec to 108 sec works better for my theory.
That's a lot of "If"s! I didn't ask you what your theory requires. I asked you to show us (i.e. provide some proof) that Truly and Baker did not enter the first floor storeroom any sooner than between 75 and 85 seconds.
Btw, you develop a theory based on known facts. You don't concoct a theory and then start looking for what it requires to make it work.
In this instance, the Malcom Couch film, taken just 15 to 20 seconds after the last shot, shows Officer Baker parking his motorbike and running toward the entrance of the TSBD.
Do you really believe, once inside, it took him and Truly between 48 and 63 seconds to run to the back of the building?
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Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested. The Stroud document looses all credibility. The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order. It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.
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Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested. The Stroud document looses all credibility. The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order. It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.
Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested.
So, what you are really saying here is that independently thinking and drawing logical conclusions is not for you and you just accept blindly whatever the WC said.
The WC "established" a hell of a lot, but mainly only what the predetermined narrative required and more than often without any supporting evidence. Where Adams is concerned they just made a claim for which there is no supporting evidence and used a minor part of Adams' testimony to discredit her. They failed to call her to the reconstruction and buried the Stroud letter without ever looking into it. That should tell you enough about the quality and depth of their "investigation".
They basically said something like; ignore all the other evidence. Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. We know both men were not there until around 12:35, so Adams (and Styles) were not on the stairs when Oswald came down and btw never mind that we can't prove at all that Oswald, or indeed anybody else, came down the stairs, but that's just a minor detail, right?
The Stroud document looses all credibility
The Stroud letter was an official communication from the office of a United States Attorney to the General Counsel of a Presidential Commission. To just dismiss it and say it has no credibility is just silly.
Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order.
Pure selfserving speculation and nothing more than wishful thinking. Dorothy Garner's comments to Martha Stroud are just as inconvenient for you as they were for the Warren Commission. Rather than dealing with it honestly, you simply dismiss it.
It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.
Complete nonsense. The WC established nothing of the kind. Nowhere in the report do they give approximate times for the movements of Styles and Adams. They did not even include Adams in the reconstruction and ignored Styles completely.
The bottom line is that everything Adams said in her testimony can be corroborated, except for - go figure - the location where she allegedly saw Shelley and Lovelady. My timeline shows that the only location where she could have seen, and probably did see, Shelley and Lovelady was at the railway yard, where she passed both men as she was walking to the front of the building. It is a physical impossibility for her to have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD (at 12:35, when the men returned to the building) and still be at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37. And for what it's worth, when Victoria Adams was asked by Barry Ernest about the alleged encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first she instantly denied having said that in her testimony.
The obvious fact is staring you in the face. It can only be missed by somebody who doesn't want to see!
Earlier I asked you a simple question, to which you never replied, so here it is again;
After Adams and Styles came down the stairs, they left the building at the loading dock at the back, by using the only stairs available there. They then ran towards the railway yard (which mean running along just about the whole north side of the building. When they got to the railway yard, a police man stopped them and told them to go back. They then ran along the entire side of the building to the dead end street in front of the TSBD. There they turned left and ran all the way to the other side of the building where the main entrance is. They arrived there at no later than 12:36 or 12:37, because when Styles entered the building it was not yet sealed off.
If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?
Why don't you try to answer it this time?
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Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:
1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot.
This, of course, is directly contradicted by Mr Shelley's same-day affidavit account:
“I ran across the street to a corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery, who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened.”
Mr Shelley had been best man at Ms Calvery's wedding just a few short months before!
So--------------the question is: Why did Mr Shelley change his story?
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That's a lot of "If"s! I didn't ask you what your theory requires. I asked you to show us (i.e. provide some proof) that Truly and Baker did not enter the first floor storeroom any sooner than between 75 and 85 seconds.
Btw, you develop a theory based on known facts. You don't concoct a theory and then start looking for what it requires to make it work.
In this instance, the Malcom Couch film, taken just 15 to 20 seconds after the last shot, shows Officer Baker parking his motorbike and running toward the entrance of the TSBD.
Do you really believe, once inside, it took him and Truly between 48 and 63 seconds to run to the back of the building?
My theory works ok if T/B took at least 88 sec to meet Oswald on the 2nd floor.
I havent studied the footages of Baker. But if Baker parks his bike at 20 sec. Then gets to the front door at 30 sec. Then T/B go throo 2 doorways & a counter & enter the stockroom at 35 sec. Then go north then west to get to the elevators at 55 sec (the diagonal shortcut was probly full of stacked books & tables etc). Then leave the elevators at 65 sec. Then get to the stairs at 70 sec. Then get to the 2nd floor at 85 sec. And Baker was 3 sec behind Truly, which makes it 88 sec.
Anyhow, the 88 sec is not critical. The time is not critical. The timings are critical, ie the relative times.
If T/B took an extra 10 sec then thats perfectly ok if we add 10 sec all round, ie if we add 10 sec to Oswald's journey & if we add 10 sec to A/S's journey.
If T/B took 10 sec less then thats perfectly ok if we deduct 10 sec all round, ie if we deduct 10 sec from Oswald's journey & if we deduct 10 sec from A/S's journey.
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This, of course, is directly contradicted by Mr Shelley's same-day affidavit account:
“I ran across the street to a corner of the park. I ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery, who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened.”
Mr Shelley had been best man at Ms Calvery's wedding just a few short months before!
So--------------the question is: Why did Mr Shelley change his story?
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I don't think Shelley changed his story. Instead he simply never told the complete story 100% in one interview. It's human nature to be selective in their memory. What a witness states is also influenced by the circumstances he is in when he makes the statement. The quality of the answer is always determined by the quality of the question. When a witness signs an affidavit, he/she is actually signing a synopsis of all the statements/answers he has provided to the person taking the affidavit. The witness does not write the text and although he/she is always asked to agree with the content of the affidavit before signing it, most people simply sign the damned thing to get it over with. That's why lawyers always tell clients to never make any statements to the police.
As for testimony, the witness' answers are predominantly guided by the the questions that are asked. Those questions are most often than not agenda driven prepared to obtain a certain desired result. A witness very seldom will get an opportunity to provide information not asked for.
And then there is the human factor, which clearly shows that witness statements, under oath or not, are frequently (if not usually) not consistent.
The hypocritial LNs always say that you can only believe those parts of witness statements that are corroborated by other evidence. However, when it comes to Victoria Adams' testimony they suddenly rely on it as if it was written in stone, despite the fact that it doesn't match other evidence, when the location of the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady is concerned.
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I don't think Shelley changed his story. Instead he simply never told the complete story 100% in one interview. It's human nature to be selective in their memory. What a witness states is also influenced by the circumstances he is in when he makes the statement. The quality of the answer is always determined by the quality of the question. When a witness signs an affidavit, he/she is actually signing a synopsis of all the statements/answers he has provided to the person taking the affidavit. The witness does not write the text and although he/she is always asked to agree with the content of the affidavit before signing it, most people simply sign the damned thing to get it over with. That's why lawyers always tell clients to never make any statements to the police.
As for testimony, the witness' answers are predominantly guided by the the questions that are asked. Those questions are most often than not agenda driven prepared to obtain a certain desired result. A witness very seldom will get an opportunity to provide information not asked for.
And then there is the human factor, which clearly shows that witness statements, under oath or not, are frequently (if not usually) not consistent.
The hypocritial LNs always say that you can only believe those parts of witness statements that are corroborated by other evidence. However, when it comes to Victoria Adams' testimony they suddenly rely on it as if it was written in stone, despite the fact that it doesn't match other evidence, when the location of the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady is concerned.
Mr Shelley, within a couple of hours of the shooting, specifically remembered running into Ms Calvery out at the corner of the park. This is not an incomplete version of the story he would later tell, it is a different story.
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Mr Shelley, within a couple of hours of the shooting, specifically remembered running into Ms Calvery out at the corner of the park. This is not an incomplete version of the story he would later tell, it is a different story.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
So all he left out in his testimony was calling his wife. You could say it's a different story, but to me it's just a witness leaving out a minor detail he actually simply might not have remembered on the stand several months later.
I'm not sure where you want to go with this, but I don't see it going anywhere fast.
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My theory works ok if T/B took at least 88 sec to meet Oswald on the 2nd floor.
Your theory works if Officer Baker doesn't describe a different encounter in his same-day affidavit. Another way of putting this is that your theory doesn't work.
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Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
So all he left out in his testimony was calling his wife. You could say it's a different story, but to me it's just a witness leaving out a minor detail he actually simply might not have remembered on the stand several months later.
Huh? How do you reconcile the following two accounts from Mr Shelley?
ACCOUNT A: “I ran across the street to a corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery"
ACCOUNT B: "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."
I'm not sure where you want to go with this, but I don't see it going anywhere fast.
I'm only going where Mr Shelley goes fast---------across the street to a corner of the park, where he runs into Ms Calvery. Why did he change this perfectly straightforward story?
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Huh? How do you reconcile the following two accounts from Mr Shelley?
ACCOUNT A: “I ran across the street to a corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery"
ACCOUNT B: "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."
Easy... Human failure in accurate recollection and the elapse of time between the first and the second statement, giving Shelley the time to gather his thoughts.
I'm only going where Mr Shelley goes fast---------across the street to a corner of the park, where he runs into Ms Calvery. Why did he change this perfectly straightforward story?
The corner of the park and the little old island across the street could easily be the same thing described differently on two separate occassions.
Again, I'm still not sure where you are going with this, but as far as I am concerned it's not a significant matter one way or the other.
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Easy... Human failure in accurate recollection and the elapse of time between the first and the second statement, giving Shelley the time to gather his thoughts.
But the elapse of time favors the reliability of the earlier memory. To argue otherwise is to resort to the kind of special pleading one more usually associates with the Warren Gullibles we both despise.
How could Mr Shelley possibly have had a false memory, as of ca. 2pm on 11/22, of running out to the corner of the park and running into the woman at whose wedding he had only recently been best man? Absurd!
The corner of the park and the little old island across the street could easily be the same thing described differently on two separate occassions.
They are the same thing, only here they feature in two incompatible stories.
Again, I'm still not sure where you are going with this, but as far as I am concerned it's not a significant matter one way or the other.
It may be highly significant that Mr Shelley changed his story of his immediate post-shooting movements
Thumb1:
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But the elapse of time favors the reliability of the earlier memory. To argue otherwise is to resort to the kind of special pleading one more usually associates with the Warren Gullibles we both despise.
How could Mr Shelley possibly have had a false memory, as of ca. 2pm on 11/22, of running out to the corner of the park and running into the woman at whose wedding he had only recently been best man? Absurd!
They are the same thing, only here they feature in two incompatible stories.
It may be highly significant that Mr Shelley changed his story of his immediate post-shooting movements
Thumb1:
It may be highly significant that Mr Shelley changed his story of his immediate post-shooting movements
Care to explain?
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It may be highly significant that Mr Shelley changed his story of his immediate post-shooting movements
Care to explain?
Because it shows that he's lying, which shows that he has something he wishes to hide. The question then becomes: what is it he wishes to hide?
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Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested. The Stroud document looses all credibility. The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order. It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.
"She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order"
How could Garner see Truly and the police officer come up the stairs first if she followed Adams and Styles out of the office and heard them go down the stairs?
If Truly came up the stairs first Garner would still have been stood at the fourth floor window with Adams Styles and Dorman.
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Because it shows that he's lying, which shows that he has something he wishes to hide. The question then becomes: what is it he wishes to hide?
Lying is being deliberately untruthfull. I don't see that here. I think you are looking for something that isn't there.
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Lying is being deliberately untruthfull. I don't see that here. I think you are looking for something that isn't there.
I'm not the one looking for a non-existent compatibility between Mr Shelley's accounts!
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You are making several incorrect assumptions for which there obviously is no evidence.
The first one is that the building was already locked down when Adams and Styles were stopped by a policeman. It wasn't.
The easiest way to block anybody from leaving the building was to stop them as they came down from the loading dock on the only stairs available. If the building had indeed been sealed off when they left it, the women would have been turned back as soon as they came through the back door. and on those stairs.
That's not what happened;
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
This confirms that Adams and Styles were able to leave the building and walk all the way to the railroad yard. In other words, the women left the building when it was not closed off.
Your second incorrect assumption is that the girls did not leave the 4th floor until 12:35 or later.
If the women indeed left the 4th floor at 12:35, or later, it would have been physically impossible for them to (1) go down the stairs, (2) leave the building at the back, (3) walk to the railway yard, (4) being stopped by a police officer, (5) walking around the building to the main entrance on Elm street and for Adams to be there at 12:36 or 12:37 to hear a report on the DPD radio from a police bike parked there.
Also, Dorothy Garner said that Adams went down before she saw Truly and a police man came up. Is it your claim that Truly and Baker did not get to the 4th floor until 12:35 or later?
Your third incorrect assumption is that the women were stopped by Harkness but the DPD radio transcript shows that Harkness was making a call on channel 2 at 12:36 about a witness who said that shots came from the 5th floor of the TSBD.
Dan O posted an excellent map of the TSBD 1st floor........
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
There appears to be a door at the NW corner of the 1st floor that goes from the 1st floor stairway landing out to the loading dock. I wonder why Adams and Styles wouldn't have exited the building through that door?
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Dan O posted an excellent map of the TSBD 1st floor........
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
There appears to be a door at the NW corner of the 1st floor that goes from the 1st floor stairway landing out to the loading dock. I wonder why Adams and Styles wouldn't have exited the building through that door?
The map shows exactly the distance that Adams and Styles needed to cover from the stairs of the loading platform, around the loading platform in the direction of the railway yard, around the annex warehouse building and down the street in front of the TSBD to the main entrance.
When the women arrived at the main entrance, Styles went straight back into the building without being stopped by police. In other words, before the building was locked down at 12:36 or 12:37.
If the women arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37, considering the distance they covered as well as the time needed to go down the stairs, what do you think was the latest time for them to leave the 4th floor?
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The map shows exactly the distance that Adams and Styles needed to cover from the stairs of the loading platform, around the loading platform in the direction of the railway yard, around the annex warehouse building and down the street in front of the TSBD to the main entrance.
When the women arrived at the main entrance, Styles went straight back into the building without being stopped by police. In other words, before the building was locked down at 12:36 or 12:37.
If the women arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37, considering the distance they covered as well as the time needed to go down the stairs, what do you think was the latest time for them to leave the 4th floor?
If the women arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37, considering the distance they covered as well as the time needed to go down the stairs, what do you think was the latest time for them to leave the 4th floor?
Based on the information that you've provided.... Adams and Styles would have had to departed the fourth floor immediately following the last shot. IOW it would have taken them about 6 or 7 minutes to reach the front entrance. How long did they wait for the passenger elevator before deciding to use the stairs? A minute? Two minutes?
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The map shows exactly the distance that Adams and Styles needed to cover from the stairs of the loading platform, around the loading platform in the direction of the railway yard, around the annex warehouse building and down the street in front of the TSBD to the main entrance.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
When the women arrived at the main entrance, Styles went straight back into the building without being stopped by police. In other words, before the building was locked down at 12:36 or 12:37.
If the women arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37, considering the distance they covered as well as the time needed to go down the stairs, what do you think was the latest time for them to leave the 4th floor?
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If the women arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37, considering the distance they covered as well as the time needed to go down the stairs, what do you think was the latest time for them to leave the 4th floor?
Based on the information that you've provided.... Adams and Styles would have had to departed the fourth floor immediately following the last shot. IOW it would have taken them about 6 or 7 minutes to reach the front entrance. How long did they wait for the passenger elevator before deciding to use the stairs? A minute? Two minutes?
How long did they wait for the passenger elevator before deciding to use the stairs? A minute? Two minutes?
The only evidence there is that they actually waited for the elevator is a statement by Sandra Styles in an interview, several years after the fact. In another interview Styles said - and I am paraphrasing - that if Adams said they left for the stairs straight after the last shot, than that's what probably happened. It shows that Styles is not a reliable witness. Neither Adams or Garner said anything about waiting for the elevator. IMO it didn't happen.
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How long did they wait for the passenger elevator before deciding to use the stairs? A minute? Two minutes?
The only evidence there is that they actually waited for the elevator is a statement by Sandra Styles in an interview, several years after the fact. In another interview Styles said - and I am paraphrasing - that if Adams said they left for the stairs straight after the last shot, than that's what probably happened. It shows that Styles is not a reliable witness. Neither Adams or Garner said anything about waiting for the elevator. IMO it didn't happen.
I've tried to follow along as Adams describes their route from the bottom of the stairs in the NW corner of the 1st floor to the main entrance in the SE corner.....But I can't understand her route. In the book "The Girl on the stairs "( page43)
Belin--- When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to the point where you encountered Mr Shelley and Mr Lovelady? Well, you showed me a diagram of the first floor that was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss Adams---I saw them
Belin---I mean; you saw them?
Miss Adams Yes.
Why would Belin change Shelley to Truly? Do you think he was simply confused or was he atempting to confuse Vickie Adams?
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I've tried to follow along as Adams describes their route from the bottom of the stairs in the NW corner of the 1st floor to the main entrance in the SE corner.....But I can't understand her route. In the book "The Girl on the stairs "( page43)
Belin--- When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to the point where you encountered Mr Shelley and Mr Lovelady? Well, you showed me a diagram of the first floor that was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss Adams---I saw them
Belin---I mean; you saw them?
Miss Adams Yes.
Why would Belin change Shelley to Truly? Do you think he was simply confused or was he atempting to confuse Vickie Adams?
The question that's never asked, yet IMO is the most important one, is; why is it even interesting to Belin to establish this alleged encounter between Adams, Shelley and Lovelady? I mean, in which universe, would it even be remotely significant to the investigation who Adams saw or did not see and where she saw them? Why does Belin focus on that particular point?
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How long did they wait for the passenger elevator before deciding to use the stairs? A minute? Two minutes?
The only evidence there is that they actually waited for the elevator is a statement by Sandra Styles in an interview, several years after the fact. In another interview Styles said - and I am paraphrasing - that if Adams said they left for the stairs straight after the last shot, than that's what probably happened. It shows that Styles is not a reliable witness. Neither Adams or Garner said anything about waiting for the elevator. IMO it didn't happen.
This is an excerpt from an interview with Dorothy Garner (by Barry Ernest):
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following
"shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say,
"probably to get something." Mrs. Garner said she did not actually
see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-
floor landing seconds after. When I asked how she knew they had gone
down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started
down. I remember the stairs were very noisy."
Garner makes it quite clear she followed "right behind" Adams and Styles. Because the girls were running they made the stairs before Garner came out of the office.
The point being, if Adams and Styles had waited even a few seconds for an elevator Garner would have seen them waiting.
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This is an excerpt from an interview with Dorothy Garner (by Barry Ernest):
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following
"shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say,
"probably to get something." Mrs. Garner said she did not actually
see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-
floor landing seconds after. When I asked how she knew they had gone
down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started
down. I remember the stairs were very noisy."
Garner makes it quite clear she followed "right behind" Adams and Styles. Because the girls were running they made the stairs before Garner came out of the office.
The point being, if Adams and Styles had waited even a few seconds for an elevator Garner would have seen them waiting.
Bingo.
Adams and Styles couldn't have waited even for a few seconds because the evidence shows they only had six to seven minutes to get down the stairs and walk three sides of the building, after being stopped by a police man, for Styles to enter the building again, through the front entrance, before the building was sealed off.
Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady alright, but it was at the railway yard and not on the first floor of the TSBD.
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I agree with Ford it's unlikely that Shelley, knowing Gloria Calvary, would bungle the details of this specific event; Lovelady has no info at all about her (or Baker/Truly) in his affidavit.
In the testimonies Shelley/Lovelady are in perfect sync RE Calvary reaching the stairs prior to trier moving to the "little island" where they watch Truly/Baker enter the building at the 3 minute mark -- WHAT?
How could Calvary possibly reach the front steps prior to Baker who allegedly was there 15-20 second post shots?!
Exactly, Mr Beck-----------thank you!
Now.............. The EFFECT of Mr Shelley's change of story is to keep him and Mr Lovelady together on those steps. Has Mr Shelley changed his story in order to help Mr Lovelady out in some way?
Alternatively............ Is his affidavit story (which invites corroboration from a personal friend, Ms Calvery) a lie whose purpose is to cover his own true movements/actions in that crucial first minute after the shots rang out?
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Exactly, Mr Beck-----------thank you! Thumb1:
Too bad it's insignificant for the bigger picture.
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You should know what it means when the details don't fit the big picture.
And what it means when the Commission does not call it witnesses who might resolve the conflict.
I doubt Calvary wore sneakers, so how did she manage to outrun Baker?
If Calvery ran back to the TSBD steps immediately after the third shot...
180 ft at 6mph is a shade over 20 seconds (just an estimation to give an idea of the times involved)
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You should know what it means when the details don't fit the big picture.
And what it means when the Commission does not call it witnesses who might resolve the conflict.
I doubt Calvary wore sneakers, so how did she manage to outrun Baker?
I doubt Calvary wore sneakers, so how did she manage to outrun Baker?
What does the answer to this question tell us about who killed Kennedy?
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Because it shows that he's lying, which shows that he has something he wishes to hide. The question then becomes: what is it he wishes to hide?
Just a thought:
There is a glaring omission in the affidavits of both Shelley and Lovelady - that they walk down to the railroad tracks and enter the TSBD through a door on the west side of the building. In their affidavits both men give the very distinct impression that they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
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Just a thought:
There is a glaring omission in the affidavits of both Shelley and Lovelady - that they walk down to the railroad tracks and enter the TSBD through a door on the west side of the building. In their affidavits both men give the very distinct impression that they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
Shelley and Love lady were being coached by the WC lawyers. They were like BR Williams and Harold Norman an Dougherty and many others.... They wanted to "cooperate" with the big shot lawyers and bent their statements as they thought the lawyer's wanted.
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Shelley and Love lady were being coached by the WC lawyers. They were like BR Williams and Harold Norman an Dougherty and many others.... They wanted to "cooperate" with the big shot lawyers and bent their statements as they thought the lawyer's wanted.
::) Not another hoax.
What would be the point of having both men tell the same lie about how long it took Baker to arrive after the shots?
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::) Not another hoax.
What would be the point of having both men tell the same lie about how long it took Baker to arrive after the shots?
Dan, ol man.... I don't have all the answers. But I know that Lee Oswald had been "tried" in the court of public opinion and most Texans found him guilty. The news papers printed false accounts that were basically fairy tales, and people believed them. That's the way it had always been in Texas. Many a black man had been tried in the newspapers and found guilty of some crime, and then lynched .... Lee Oswald was simply a stinkin commie, cop killer who deserved to be lynched.
Thus if men like Shelley, and Lovelady thought that they were adding to the evidence against Lee Oswald they would say whatever they thought the investigators wanted to hear.
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Dan, ol man.... I don't have all the answers. But I know that Lee Oswald had been "tried" in the court of public opinion and most Texans found him guilty. The news papers printed false accounts that were basically fairy tales, and people believed them. That's the way it had always been in Texas. Many a black man had been tried in the newspapers and found guilty of some crime, and then lynched .... Lee Oswald was simply a stinkin commie, cop killer who deserved to be lynched.
Thus if men like Shelley, and Lovelady thought that they were adding to the evidence against Lee Oswald they would say whatever they thought the investigators wanted to hear.
I understand what you're saying Walt and I agree that there are examples of the kind of corruption in this case you refer to.
But that can't be used as a "catch all" to cover every single detail of the case (IMO)
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I understand what you're saying Walt and I agree that there are examples of the kind of corruption in this case you refer to.
But that can't be used as a "catch all" to cover every single detail of the case (IMO)
Dan, I wish that I could "dot every I and cross every T " for you, but alas, I'm not a walking encyclopedia . I can't only see the broad picture.... many of the fine details are obscured by the smoke created by the conspirators.
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Dan, ol man.... I don't have all the answers. But I know that Lee Oswald had been "tried" in the court of public opinion and most Texans found him guilty. The news papers printed false accounts that were basically fairy tales, and people believed them. That's the way it had always been in Texas. Many a black man had been tried in the newspapers and found guilty of some crime, and then lynched .... Lee Oswald was simply a stinkin commie, cop killer who deserved to be lynched.
Thus if men like Shelley, and Lovelady thought that they were adding to the evidence against Lee Oswald they would say whatever they thought the investigators wanted to hear.
Many a black man had been tried in the newspapers and found guilty of some crime, and then lynched
I can't argue with that, but the cases against the Black men were usually small with only a few cops and an eyewitness or two and nowhere the magnitude of this case which has many eyewitnesses, dozens of Cops, the FBI and many others, so the chances that everyone collaborated to frame an innocent man becomes exponentially smaller with each person involved, it's just basic logic.
It is what it is, Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.
JohnM
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I can't argue with that, but the cases against the Black men were usually small with only a few cops and an eyewitness or two and nowhere the magnitude of this case which has many eyewitnesses, dozens of Cops, the FBI and many others, so the chances that everyone collaborated to frame an innocent man becomes exponentially smaller with each person involved, it's just basic logic.
Agreed
It is what it is, Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.
If it was that simple then why is that Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Norman, Jarman and Dougherty all lie in their various statements.
These are not "misrememberences" or misunderstandings. They are out and out lies.
If these are just normal working men going about their day while, unbeknownst to them, some lunatic shoots the President, then why all the lies?
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I can't argue with that, but the cases against the Black men were usually small with only a few cops and an eyewitness or two and nowhere the magnitude of this case which has many eyewitnesses, dozens of Cops, the FBI and many others, so the chances that everyone collaborated to frame an innocent man becomes exponentially smaller with each person involved, it's just basic logic.
It is what it is, Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.
JohnM
Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.
That's a gross over simplification, and you should be embarrassed to post such silliness.
You've been around long enough to know that nobody can prove that Lee took a rifle to work , and in fact there is strong evidence that refutes the idea.
And Lee had a very strong alibi that refutes any contention that he was on the sixth floor at the alleged "Sniper's Nest " at the time that JFK was murdered. Lee said that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom when the president's parade passed by the TSBD.
And he saw two fellow employees pass through the first floor while he was sitting there in the lunchroom eating his lunch.
Why do you insist on keeping your head tucked in where you can't see or hear the truth/
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Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.
That's a gross over simplification, and you should be embarrassed to post such silliness.
You've been around long enough to know that nobody can prove that Lee took a rifle to work , and in fact there is strong evidence that refutes the idea.
And Lee had a very strong alibi that refutes any contention that he was on the sixth floor at the alleged "Sniper's Nest " at the time that JFK was murdered. Lee said that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom when the president's parade passed by the TSBD.
And he saw two fellow employees pass through the first floor while he was sitting there in the lunchroom eating his lunch.
Why do you insist on keeping your head tucked in where you can't see or hear the truth/
That's a gross over simplification, and you should be embarrassed to post such silliness.
You've been around long enough to know that nobody can prove that Lee took a rifle to work , and in fact there is strong evidence that refutes the idea.
Thumb1:
It's just Johnny's usual nonsense. He constantly makes claims he can't prove!
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Just a thought:
There is a glaring omission in the affidavits of both Shelley and Lovelady - that they walk down to the railroad tracks and enter the TSBD through a door on the west side of the building. In their affidavits both men give the very distinct impression that they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
Indeed!
And another thing-------------Mr Shelley's affidavit is all about him singular (I ran out across the street, I ran into Gloria Calvery, I went back to the building).
There appears to be no sign of Mr Shelley on the steps in Darnell, but a figure looking a lot like Mr Lovelady is in evidence there-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/6x5i9cK.jpg)
The effect of Mr Shelley's change of story appears to be to
a) keep him on the steps for a longer time
b) thereby keep Mr Lovelady and himself paired up
Is Mr Shelley helping Mr Lovelady out in some way? Or is he getting Mr Lovelady to help him out?
One thing is for sure: Mr Shelley's blatant relocation of his encounter with Ms Calvery (from out at the corner of the park to at the front steps) is most troubling. As is the bizarre time estimation both men give for their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly fixing to go inside the building
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According to Mr Shelley's first affidavit, he "went back to the building" after his encounter with Ms Calvery out at the corner of the park. As Mr O'Meara has pointed out, not a word about going to the railroad yards.
Could this be him in Darnell?
(https://i.imgur.com/fD6ACJw.jpg)
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Agreed
If it was that simple then why is that Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Norman, Jarman and Dougherty all lie in their various statements.
These are not "misremembrances" or misunderstandings. They are out and out lies.
If these are just normal working men going about their day while, unbeknownst to them, some lunatic shoots the President, then why all the lies?
If it was that simple then why is that Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Norman, Jarman and Dougherty all lie in their various statements.
Do you think that all these men were involved and to what extent and what motivated them to "lie"?
JohnM
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What would be the point of having both men tell the same lie about how long it took Baker to arrive after the shots?
For one thing, it gets Mr Lovelady well away from the steps for Officer Baker's arrival there
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But I know that Lee Oswald had been "tried" in the court of public opinion and most Texans found him guilty.
The week following his death, Oswald's defense fortunes turned dramatically. "Lil' Lee has been given the greatest defense any suspect in history ever had, with the thousands of books, dozens of documentaries and countless websites.
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BLUE: Prayer Man
YELLOW: Mr Bill Shelley
RED: Mr Billy Lovelady
(https://i.imgur.com/mSJI1CS.jpg)
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The week following his death, Oswald's defense fortunes turned dramatically. "Lil' Lee has been given the greatest defense any suspect in history ever had, with the thousands of books, dozens of documentaries and countless websites.
Even the "best defense" is worthless when there is no jury to ultimately decide and the official narrative is written by those who not only control the investigation but also all the evidence.
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I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one.
The "problems" you see are imaginary. Ever since you implicitely claimed, in another thread, that the ambulance that took Tippit to the hospital was driving at 30 mph, I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously.
I said that the ambulance averaged about 30mph. You seem not to realize that they have to slow down quite a bit to make corners and while crossing major intersections. It doesn't help the patient to roll the ambulance or be t-boned by cross traffic while running a red light. Those slowdowns affect their average speed more that you might think. Also, they started at 0 mph and ended at the same speed. An overweight station wagon relying on early 1960's drivetrain, suspension, and braking technology isn't going to respond to driver inputs like a modern F1 car. It's not going to rocket ahead, and the driver will have to think ahead before decelerating to give the car enough room and time to decelerate. It can't be thrown around city streets like a Lewis Hamilton track day. I'm sure that they went as fast as they could, but that's not liable to be as fast as some people want to imagine.
Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:
1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door.
And that took an estimated five minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been much more because at around 12:36 the back of the building was sealed off.
Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.
No, Lovelady didn't testify that. He did not say he thought it was Adams.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
He, in fact, said - without being asked specifically - that he wouldn't swear it was Vickie. Now why would he say that, when he wasn't asked? Could it be the WC lawyers had already talked to him prior to his testimony and he simply did not feel comfortable naming somebody just because they wanted him to?
Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
So what?
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.
Non sequitur. Dorothy Garner told Martha Strout a different story. Your story, as so often, does not match all the known facts. Also for this to be even remotely true, quod non, Adams and Styles would have had to wait until Baker and Truly had reached the 4th floor and gone up the the 5th and Adams testified she did not see Truly or a motorcycle police officer at any time, which would be strange if the men had come up to the 4th floor and Adams and Styles were still there.
Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
And this is where your "theory" falls apart. Shelley and Lovelady returned to the building at around 12:35 or 12:36, just before the back of the building was sealed off by police. For Adams and Styles to see them at that moment, they most likely wouldn't have made it out of the building. But let's, for argument's sake, say they did, the girls were on heels and had the walk around three sides of the building, over railway tracks and talk to a police man who stopped them (in the railway yard). There is no way that Adams and Styles could have made it to the front entrance in two minutes.
Even worse, Styles entered the building straight away and was not stopped. That means she got there before the building was locked down (which apparently happened at 12:36)! Adams hung around outside to talk to some girls and it was then that she heard the radio broadcast. When she, subsequently, tried to enter the building it was sealed off and she was initally stopped.
Your timeline doesn't add up and does not match the known facts. That's what happens when you try to focus on one piece of uncorroborated information and ignore everything else.
It seems you simply do not understand or want to understand how the timeline fits together, so let me try to explain by asking some questions, you probably will not answer.
1. The front entrance of the building was sealed off at around 12:36. Sandra Styles was not stopped when she entered the building. Do you agree that Styles (and Adams) must have arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest?
2. If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?
3. If Adams and Styles did in fact leave the building at 12:23 (or perhaps even earlier), how could Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady entering the building at around 12:35?
My timeline provides the most probable explanation for this discrepancy; Adams and Styles saw Shelley and Lovelady, not when the men entered the building, but when they were still standing on the railway yard, where Adams and Styles passed them on their way to the front of the building. Witnesses do not always get everything correct, even in their testimony under oath.
Your position is based on the notion that there was a "lockdown" and/or "the building was sealed off" at 12:36. (Yeah, I know you weasel it out to "about 12:36" at some point, buy you always refer back to 12:36 as a hard point.)
The 12:36 comes ultimately comes from DV Harkness' channel two transmission (it also appears on channel one as an instance of the acoustically-coupled crosstalk that figures prominently in the acoustic analysis debate). This transmission is commonly rendered as "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." This rendering is incorrect. The transmission really says, "I have a witness that says they came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now, we're going to seal off the building." All we know about what's going on at 12:36 is that someone intends to "seal off" the building. Not that it is being done at that moment, and definitely not that it has been already been done.
Harkness testified that after the shots, he first drove his motorcycle west on Main all the way to Industrial, then he turned around, came back to Dealey Plaza, and wound up driving west down Old Elm all the way to the fence on the GK. There, he encountered Amos Euins. He took Euins' statements broadcast them via radio. This is the "12:36" broadcast in Harkness' testimony. He then put Euins on his bike and drove Euins to Sawyer's' car, which was parked in front of the Depository. Once there, Harkness got Euins off the bike, put him in Sawyer's car, got Sawyer's attention and explained Euins' situation. Only then does Harkness go to "seal off" the "back of the building." Even then, it's going to take some time for him to get into position. All of this activity, from transmission get taking position behind the building, would easily consume another minute, maybe another two or three. Instead of Harkness sealing off any part of the building at 12:36, it's really more like 12:37 at the earliest. Maybe 12:38. Or 12:39. Maybe even later.
One minute of Channel two air time after the Harkness transmission, LL Hill radios the channel 2 dispatcher to assign officers to "cover this school depository building." They still don't have the personnel to seal it off at that point and are requesting the officers needed to do it. More evidence that the "lockdown" wasn't locking anything at 12:36.
In reality, there is no good reason to claim that the building was sealed off, locked down, covered, etc. at 12:36 or even at "about 12:36." All we can say is that the building was surrounded and sealed off at some point after 12:36.
BTW, Harkness also has a somewhat interesting idea of what "seal off the building" means. Consider this exchange:
Mr. BELIN - When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.
Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?
Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.
Mr. BELIN - You don't know?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.
According to Harkness' logic, "sealing off" a building means nothing more than having a couple of cops standing around next to it. It doesn't help us know exactly when the cops out front started to actively control people entering and exiting the front door. Even then, they didn't do a very good job of it: Vickie Adams was able to get past a cop at the door merely by saying she worked in the building, and without needing someone like Shelley or Truly vouching for her residency in the building. That's not much in the way of a "lockdown."
I should probably add that there is no good reason to believe that the DPD on-site at the TSBD went from 0% lockdown to 100% lockdown in an instant. Nor is there a good reason to assert that the cordon was uniformly enforced at any given time until its final form emerged. Harkness' testimony and LL Hill's broadcast imply that officers were assigned piecemeal as they arrived. Harkness testimony indicates that, at least initially, the officers assigned to cordon off the building weren't given particularly clear or detailed instructions, other than just surrounding the building. I think it safe to assume that they would have instinctively figured that the object was to cover avenues of escape in the event that the perpetrator were still in the building. But that doesn't mean they automatically understood that they needed to keep everyone out, at least in the beginning.
And there's one more thing to consider:
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
So, she heads north until she gets to the north corner of the TSBD, then turns west. Before she gets very far, she is confronted by a police officer who tells her "get back to the building." She then gets to Old Elm by travelling southwest. That latter bit indicates that she skirted the angled west side on the TSBD. In turn, it indicates that the confrontation with the police officer must have occurred very close to the TSBD. That is precisely what I would expect if she had run into the cordon being established by Harkness and the other two officers detailed to him for that purpose. Adams' testimony, then, indicates that she didn't exit the building until after the cordon began to be established. And if Harkness and his two guys weren't in position until after 12:36, Adams could not have left the building until after Harkness' 12:36 broadcast.
So, let's go back to your three questions:
1. The front entrance of the building was sealed off at around 12:36. Sandra Styles was not stopped when she entered the building. Do you agree that Styles (and Adams) must have arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest?
There is no reason to believe that the building was "locked down" at 12:36. In fact, the evidence indicates that this happened at some point after 12:36. Also, Adams' testimony indicates that she did not leave the building until after a cordon was already being esatablished.
2. If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?
Depends on the assumptions stated in question 1. Those assumptions have been shown to be unwarranted, so this question is invalid from the get go.
3. If Adams and Styles did in fact leave the building at 12:33 (or perhaps even earlier), how could Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady entering the building at around 12:35?
This also depends on your unwarranted assumptions in question one.
Adams testified that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She was allowed to review her testimony in print, and she literally signed off on it with not objections as to her testimony as to Lovelady and Shelley's presence in the first floor.
Dorothy Garner told Martha Strout a different story
Truly testified that, as he came back down the stairs from the roof, he ran into another DPD officer on the 4th floor who had climbed up at some point after Truly and Baker. I would suggest that Garner saw this and would later put the wrong 2 + 2 together after hearing about the initial Truly/Baker effort.
Your story, as so often, does not match all the known facts.
You're the last guy who needs to cast stones. You house has good shatter insurance, does it?
Also for this to be even remotely true, quod non, Adams and Styles would have had to wait until Baker and Truly had reached the 4th floor and gone up the the 5th and Adams testified she did not see Truly or a motorcycle police officer at any time, which would be strange if the men had come up to the 4th floor and Adams and Styles were still there.
Adams and Styles were looking out through a window in an office on the south side of the building. The stairwell was on the north side, with at least one wall and a stockroom full of books in between. There is no reason to expect Styles and Adams to have noticed someone coming up the stairwell on the far side of the building with so much obstruction in the way.
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I said that the ambulance averaged about 30mph. You seem not to realize that they have to slow down quite a bit to make corners and while crossing major intersections. It doesn't help the patient to roll the ambulance or be t-boned by cross traffic while running a red light. Those slowdowns affect their average speed more that you might think. Also, they started at 0 mph and ended at the same speed. An overweight station wagon relying on early 1960's drivetrain, suspension, and braking technology isn't going to respond to driver inputs like a modern F1 car. It's not going to rocket ahead, and the driver will have to think ahead before decelerating to give the car enough room and time to decelerate. It can't be thrown around city streets like a Lewis Hamilton track day. I'm sure that they went as fast as they could, but that's not liable to be as fast as some people want to imagine.
I said that the ambulance averaged about 30mph.
No, you didn't. You said that the ambulance needed 3 minutes to cover 1,5 miles and required even more time to put Tippit on a stretcher and into the ambulance. The way you presented that was that it took minutes which was utterly ridiculous. All you were trying to do back then is find "reasons" to push back the time as much as possible to cover up the discrepancies in the official narrative. And you are doing the same here all over again.... What a surprise.
You seem not to realize that they have to slow down quite a bit to make corners and while crossing major intersections.
BS. The Hughes Funeral home was only a block away. From there to 10th street involved only two corners. The ambulance got to the scene in less than 30 seconds! Once they picked up Tippit, all the ambulance needed to do (and did) was get on to East Davis (again only two corners in a residential area with no heavy traffic) and from there turn right on North Beckley.
From that point on it was a straight line to the hospital with only one major intersection (Zang) to cross.
To argue that, with sirens and lights on and hardly any obstacles on the road, the ambulance would have driven no faster than an average of 30 mph is just plain silly.
Btw I'm actually surprised that you didn't go so far as to claim the ambulance had to stop for people crossing the street and traffic lights..... :D
Your position is based on the notion that there was a "lockdown" and/or "the building was sealed off" at 12:36. (Yeah, I know you weasel it out to "about 12:36" at some point, buy you always refer back to 12:36 as a hard point.)
More BS. In the timeline I made clear that the times were approximations. You must have missed that in your eagerness to make an invalid point.
The 12:36 comes ultimately comes from DV Harkness' channel two transmission (it also appears on channel one as an instance of the acoustically-coupled crosstalk that figures prominently in the acoustic analysis debate). This transmission is commonly rendered as "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." This rendering is incorrect. The transmission really says, "I have a witness that says they came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now, we're going to seal off the building." All we know about what's going on at 12:36 is that someone intends to "seal off" the building. Not that it is being done at that moment, and definitely not that it has been already been done.
Harkness testified that after the shots, he first drove his motorcycle west on Main all the way to Industrial, then he turned around, came back to Dealey Plaza, and wound up driving west down Old Elm all the way to the fence on the GK. There, he encountered Amos Euins. He took Euins' statements broadcast them via radio. This is the "12:36" broadcast in Harkness' testimony. He then put Euins on his bike and drove Euins to Sawyer's' car, which was parked in front of the Depository. Once there, Harkness got Euins off the bike, put him in Sawyer's car, got Sawyer's attention and explained Euins' situation. Only then does Harkness go to "seal off" the "back of the building." Even then, it's going to take some time for him to get into position. All of this activity, from transmission get taking position behind the building, would easily consume another minute, maybe another two or three. Instead of Harkness sealing off any part of the building at 12:36, it's really more like 12:37 at the earliest. Maybe 12:38. Or 12:39. Maybe even later.
One minute of Channel two air time after the Harkness transmission, LL Hill radios the channel 2 dispatcher to assign officers to "cover this school depository building." They still don't have the personnel to seal it off at that point and are requesting the officers needed to do it. More evidence that the "lockdown" wasn't locking anything at 12:36.
In reality, there is no good reason to claim that the building was sealed off, locked down, covered, etc. at 12:36 or even at "about 12:36." All we can say is that the building was surrounded and sealed off at some point after 12:36.
BTW, Harkness also has a somewhat interesting idea of what "seal off the building" means. Consider this exchange:
Mr. BELIN - When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.
Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?
Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.
Mr. BELIN - You don't know?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.
According to Harkness' logic, "sealing off" a building means nothing more than having a couple of cops standing around next to it. It doesn't help us know exactly when the cops out front started to actively control people entering and exiting the front door. Even then, they didn't do a very good job of it: Vickie Adams was able to get past a cop at the door merely by saying she worked in the building, and without needing someone like Shelley or Truly vouching for her residency in the building. That's not much in the way of a "lockdown."
I should probably add that there is no good reason to believe that the DPD on-site at the TSBD went from 0% lockdown to 100% lockdown in an instant. Nor is there a good reason to assert that the cordon was uniformly enforced at any given time until its final form emerged. Harkness' testimony and LL Hill's broadcast imply that officers were assigned piecemeal as they arrived. Harkness testimony indicates that, at least initially, the officers assigned to cordon off the building weren't given particularly clear or detailed instructions, other than just surrounding the building. I think it safe to assume that they would have instinctively figured that the object was to cover avenues of escape in the event that the perpetrator were still in the building. But that doesn't mean they automatically understood that they needed to keep everyone out, at least in the beginning.
The 12:36 comes ultimately comes from DV Harkness' channel two transmission
I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but I never said that and it is actually incorrect
Only then does Harkness go to "seal off" the "back of the building." Even then, it's going to take some time for him to get into position. All of this activity, from transmission get taking position behind the building, would easily consume another minute, maybe another two or three. Instead of Harkness sealing off any part of the building at 12:36, it's really more like 12:37 at the earliest. Maybe 12:38. Or 12:39. Maybe even later.
So much irrelevant "reasoning" to make a completely insignificant point, because Harkess was sealing off the back of the building and Styles and Adams entered the building at the front entrance, so whatever Harkness was doing at that point in time is of no importance.
And there's one more thing to consider:
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
So, she heads north until she gets to the north corner of the TSBD, then turns west. Before she gets very far, she is confronted by a police officer who tells her "get back to the building." She then gets to Old Elm by travelling southwest. That latter bit indicates that she skirted the angled west side on the TSBD. In turn, it indicates that the confrontation with the police officer must have occurred very close to the TSBD. That is precisely what I would expect if she had run into the cordon being established by Harkness and the other two officers detailed to him for that purpose. Adams' testimony, then, indicates that she didn't exit the building until after the cordon began to be established. And if Harkness and his two guys weren't in position until after 12:36, Adams could not have left the building until after Harkness' 12:36 broadcast.
Adams' testimony, then, indicates that she didn't exit the building until after the cordon began to be established.
No, she did not indicate that at all. It's your speculative conclusion based upon your assumption that "the cordon began to be established" when Adams left the building. There is not a shred of evidence for that assumption.
What actually happened is that after Harkness delivered Euins to Sawyer, he and other two officers were instructed by Sawyer to check the railway yard, which is what they subsequently did. Adams testified that she got to approximately 2 yards within the tracks when she encountered a police officer who told her to go back to the building. So, the obvious conclusion must be that Adams encountered a police officer who had been ordered to check the railway yard. That's it. That's all we know. Everything else originates from your imagination.
So, let's go back to your three questions:
1. The front entrance of the building was sealed off at around 12:36. Sandra Styles was not stopped when she entered the building. Do you agree that Styles (and Adams) must have arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest?
There is no reason to believe that the building was "locked down" at 12:36. In fact, the evidence indicates that this happened at some point after 12:36. Also, Adams' testimony indicates that she did not leave the building until after a cordon was already being esatablished.
Wrong on all counts and it doesn't even answer my question. There is good reason to believe that the front entrance of the building was locked down at around 12:36 / 12:37 because Sawyer testified that he posted two men at the main entrance at that exact moment. And nowhere in her testimony does Adams indicate that she did not leave the building until after a cordon was established. You just made that up.
2. If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?
Depends on the assumptions stated in question 1. Those assumptions have been shown to be unwarranted, so this question is invalid from the get go.
3. If Adams and Styles did in fact leave the building at 12:33 (or perhaps even earlier), how could Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady entering the building at around 12:35?
This also depends on your unwarranted assumptions in question one.
You have not shown that my so-called assumptions are unwarrented. All you have done is concocted your own little bogus story about when the back of the building was locked down.
Adams testified that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She was allowed to review her testimony in print, and she literally signed off on it with not objections as to her testimony as to Lovelady and Shelley's presence in the first floor.
And yet Shelley and Lovelady did not confirm seeing Adams and Styles, despite the back area of the first floor being an open area and Adams told Barry Ernest that she wasn't aware this was in her testimony and she denied ever saying it. Also, the preponderance of evidence shows that it was a physical impossibility for Adams to see Shelley and Lovelady, when they re-entered the building at 12:35.
When all other parts of the evidence fit, the only thing that does not fit must be regarded as unreliable and not the other way around!
Dorothy Garner told Martha Strout a different story
Truly testified that, as he came back down the stairs from the roof, he ran into another DPD officer on the 4th floor who had climbed up at some point after Truly and Baker. I would suggest that Garner saw this and would later put the wrong 2 + 2 together after hearing about the initial Truly/Baker effort.
Aha... another mistaken or confused witness.... How convenient.
The Stroud letter is clear; Garner said she saw Truly and a police come up after the girls had gone down. That was relevant information which warranted to be included in the letter. Truly coming down and meeting another officer on the 4th floor would have been of no significance. But, nice try Thumb1:
Your story, as so often, does not match all the known facts.
You're the last guy who needs to cast stones. You house has good shatter insurance, does it?
When you need to bend and misrepresent the facts as much as you do, it's pretty obvious that I have made my point, yet again!
Also for this to be even remotely true, quod non, Adams and Styles would have had to wait until Baker and Truly had reached the 4th floor and gone up the the 5th and Adams testified she did not see Truly or a motorcycle police officer at any time, which would be strange if the men had come up to the 4th floor and Adams and Styles were still there.
Adams and Styles were looking out through a window in an office on the south side of the building. The stairwell was on the north side, with at least one wall and a stockroom full of books in between. There is no reason to expect Styles and Adams to have noticed someone coming up the stairwell on the far side of the building with so much obstruction in the way.
First of all, where did you get the notion that the stockroom was full of books? Another assumption perhaps? Secondly, you assume that Adams and Styles stayed at the window after the shots, when in fact they didn't. In the wall between the office space and the stockroom, there is a door. Adams, Styles and Garner went through that door and directly to the stairs. They would have seen anybody in the area of the stairs, but even if they didn't see anybody, they most certainly would have heard somebody running on those wooden stairs and floors.
The bottom line is a simple one; in the timeline I have presented everything fits and is corroborated except for the location where Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady.
For your alternative timeline (fragments) to work, witnesses have to be mistaken, confused or misunderstood, Victoria Adams' testimony needs to be misrepresented, the lock down didn't happen when the officers said it did and it wasn't really a lock down at all. What you still haven't figured out is that more you have to misrepresent details to make a counter argument the less credible your story becomes.
Now, instead of making all sorts of assumptions that go nowhere, why don't you try to put together a timeline that takes in account all the known information and actually works? Shouldn't be so hard to do if you are sure you are right.....
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(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This map provides a great visual to what occurred in the movements of Styles and Adams. The WC put this question to rest in April of 1964 by providing time stamps to their movements.
Styles and Adams, left the fourth floor at approximately 12:35 and hurried through the TSBD where they encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the first floor elevator. Why that is important is Shelley and Lovelady had traveled around the area before returning to the TSBD. Styles and Adams, after having encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator, were stopped by the Police as they exited the rear of the TSBD near the dock. Styles and Adams were told to return to the building which they did but they followed the RR track spur running alongside the building walking back to Elm Street. Both statements leave no confusion as to where they encountered the police after 12:36 and how they returned to the front of the building before 12:37.
Adams statement is telling because she states she went "southwest" where from any other place but the back of the building doesn't lead to Elm Street.
Styles statement is telling from the standpoint she states they went "around to the front of the building" which given the nature of the layout of the track describes it perfectly.
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
Styles: "...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."
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(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This map provides a great visual to what occurred in the movements of Styles and Adams. The WC put this question to rest in April of 1964 by providing time stamps to their movements.
Styles and Adams, left the fourth floor at approximately 12:35 and hurried through the TSBD where they encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the first floor elevator. Why that is important is Shelley and Lovelady had traveled around the area before returning to the TSBD. Styles and Adams, after having encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator, were stopped by the Police as they exited the rear of the TSBD near the dock. Styles and Adams were told to return to the building which they did but they followed the RR track spur running alongside the building walking back to Elm Street. Both statements leave no confusion as to where they encountered the police after 12:36 and how they returned to the front of the building before 12:37.
Adams statement is telling because she states she went "southwest" where from any other place but the back of the building doesn't lead to Elm Street.
Styles statement is telling from the standpoint she states they went "around to the front of the building" which given the nature of the layout of the track describes it perfectly.
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
Styles: "...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."
So, what you are actually trying to say is that Adams and Styles needed no more that 2 minutes to (1) go down the stairs, (2) leave the building at the back and walk around the loading dock towards the railway yard, (3) go round the building including the annex next to railway tracks and (4) walk down the street in front of the TSBD towards the main entrance?
All that in 2 minutes or less? Really? :D
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Do you think that all these men were involved and to what extent and what motivated them to "lie"?
JohnM
No, I don't think all these men were involved and they lied for very different reasons.
The point is, they all lied in their various statements and I don't see how that fits in with just a bunch of normal working guys going about their day. The were questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the SS in an era when these institutions were feared.
If you don't believe they did lie, we can have that conversation.
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Styles and Adams, left the fourth floor at approximately 12:35 ... they returned to the front of the building before 12:37.
Ah, but:
Miss ADAMS. When I got there (the front of the building, A.F.), I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" And she said, "I don't know."
Have you pondered the implications of the above for your timeline, Mr Nessan? It would seem not!
Thumb1:
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Dan O posted an excellent map of the TSBD 1st floor........
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
That floor plan looks like a Robert Cutler draft.
My curiosity concerns the basement of the building. What is in that basement? Is it or not 100X100 feet square like the rest of the floors? What was in that basement back at the time of the assassination? Was the basement searched for possible hidden suspects when the cops stormed the building?
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To add to my previous reply to Mitch Todd, let's examine for a minute the hypocrisy of his position.
In his last post he wrote;
And there's one more thing to consider:
Adams testified that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She was allowed to review her testimony in print, and she literally signed off on it with not objections as to her testimony as to Lovelady and Shelley's presence in the first floor.
Although what he said is true, in as much as that it says that in her testimony and she did indeed sign the document, which btw happened several days after her testimony when somebody showed up at her workplace and asked her to sign it, after she initially waived signing it.
Todd's hypocrisy is nevertheless on full display, because in the same testimony, Adams also says;
Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs.
and
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
yet Todd completely ignores that and dismisses it, while at the same time attaching great importance to the Shelley/Lovelady remark.
It is obvious there is a great discrepancy between the two remarks, as the Shelley/Lovelady remark implies that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor much later than Adams testified she did. When there are two contradicting statements from a witness, the best way to determine which one is the correct statement is to look for corroboration.
Sow, let's see what Adams told the investigators prior to her testimony;
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;
"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"
and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"
In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot
And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;
"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.
And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noise stairs.
All these statements sufficiently corroborate Adams testimony - I am paraphrasing - that she and Styles left their position at the window and went to the stairs at the back of the building within seconds after the third shot.
Now let's examine what corroboration there is for the Shelley/Lovelady remark.
To say that there isn't any would be a misrepresentation of the facts, because Jim Leavelle wrote in his report of 02/17/64 that Adams said;
"I saw Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill"
But that's about it.
Note that Adams did not say when and where she saw Shelley and Lovelady. That bit of information was only added on during her testimony on 04/07/64. It should also be noted that Adams was not included in the re-enactment of the events on 03/20/64, so before she even testified the WC lawyers were already not interested in what she had to say about what actually happened on 11/22/63.
Also note that Shelley, Lovelady and Sandra Styles did not confirm the alleged encounter on the first floor at the TSBD and that closer examination of Shelley's and Lovelady's actions after the shot show that both men were in the railway yard next to the TSBD until 12:35, which means there is no physical way Adams could have seen both men on the first floor if she came down the stairs immediately after the third shot. On the other hand, it is indeed possible that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady in the railway yard as she passed the men on her way to the front entrance.
And finally it should be noted that on 04/04/64 WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert wrote a remarkable memo in which he refered to a recent staff meeting in which he had objected to what he called "editing of the transcripts of depositions". In the same memo he also complains about the practice of waiving signatures by the witnesses and advocates to have witnesses read and sign the transcript even if it contains errors, which according to him can later be rectified.
Now, isn't it just remarkable that Victoria Adams initially waived signing her testimony, as that would save her from having to return to sign it, only to be confronted by somebody at work a few days later who insisted she would sign after all. And isn't it just as remarkable that Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that she never testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?
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Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.
That's a gross over simplification, and you should be embarrassed to post such silliness.
You've been around long enough to know that nobody can prove that Lee took a rifle to work , and in fact there is strong evidence that refutes the idea.
And Lee had a very strong alibi that refutes any contention that he was on the sixth floor at the alleged "Sniper's Nest " at the time that JFK was murdered. Lee said that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom when the president's parade passed by the TSBD.
And he saw two fellow employees pass through the first floor while he was sitting there in the lunchroom eating his lunch.
Why do you insist on keeping your head tucked in where you can't see or hear the truth/
A "strong alibi"! Even a CTer can't believe that. I want you on the jury if I'm ever arrested for a crime. The only evidence of Oswald having an alibi is that he said so. His rifle is found at the crime scene with bullet casings from that rifle by the window. His prints are on the SN boxes and rifle. He flees the scene within minutes even after a police officer pulls a gun on him without pausing to ask what is going on. He is identified by multiple witnesses as the murderer of a police officer that occurs a short distance and time away. But he tells the police he was having lunch so it's all good. HA HA HA.
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A "strong alibi"! Even a CTer can't believe that. I want you on the jury if I'm ever arrested for a crime. The only evidence of Oswald having an alibi is that he said so. His rifle is found at the crime scene with bullet casings from that rifle by the window. His prints are on the SN boxes and rifle. He flees the scene within minutes even after a police officer pulls a gun on him without pausing to ask what is going on. He is identified by multiple witnesses as the murderer of a police officer that occurs a short distance and time away. But he tells the police he was having lunch so it's all good. HA HA HA.
The only evidence of Oswald having an alibi is that he said so. ....and it was supported unknowingly by two of his fellow workers, Junior Jarman and Horold Norman. They testified that they passed through the first floor shipping room and passed by the Domino room at about 12:26. Lee said that he saw them as he sat there in the Domino room eating his lunch.
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The only evidence of Oswald having an alibi is that he said so. ....and it was supported unknowingly by two of his fellow workers, Junior Jarman and Horold Norman. They testified that they passed through the first floor shipping room and passed by the Domino room at about 12:26. Lee said that he saw them as he sat there in the Domino room eating his lunch.
How does that support his claim? Oswald worked in the building for weeks. As a result, he knew Jarman and Norman worked there and and he made something up knowing they moved about the building at lunch time. Probably every employee in the building passed through there. He didn't exactly have to be Nostradamus to do that. Who saw Oswald to corroborate his story? You really think Oswald sat in a public area of the building and none of his coworkers could confirm his presence there?
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How does that support his claim? Oswald worked in the building for weeks. As a result, he knew Jarman and Norman worked there and and he made something up knowing they moved about the building at lunch time. Probably every employee in the building passed through there. He didn't exactly have to be Nostradamus to do that. Who saw Oswald to corroborate his story? You really think Oswald sat in a public area of the building and none of his coworkers could confirm his presence there?
There were several black employees who worked in TSBD. What are the odds that he would guess that Jarman passed by the lunch room and was accompanied by just one other person?
It would be easier to believe he was just guessing if he said Jarman was alone or said he was with a group of employees.
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There were several black employees who worked in TSBD. What are the odds that he would guess that Jarman passed by the lunch room and was accompanied by just one other person?
It would be easier to believe he was just guessing if he said Jarman was alone or said he was with a group of employees.
He could have picked just about anyone who worked there and said they passed by. And they probably did given the time and location and fact that many employees were heading out for the motorcade. Oswald had also worked there for weeks and observed the patterns of behavior. He would have know who had lunch where and with whom on a typical day. It would be no great feat to make something up. More importantly, though, who saw Oswald there? Old Ozzie was perhaps the most politically astute person in the entire TSBD workforce but he is not going to even bother to step outside to watch the presidential motorcade. The same guy who checked JFK's book out of the library to read. And the fantasy conspirators are going to trust the entire plot to frame Oswald to luck by allowing him to roam about the building during the assassination and not be noticed by anyone who could give him an alibi or even do the most likely thing that day to head out of the building in the company of dozens of coworkers, cameras etc. It is laughable.
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How does that support his claim? Oswald worked in the building for weeks. As a result, he knew Jarman and Norman worked there and and he made something up knowing they moved about the building at lunch time. Probably every employee in the building passed through there. He didn't exactly have to be Nostradamus to do that. Who saw Oswald to corroborate his story? You really think Oswald sat in a public area of the building and none of his coworkers could confirm his presence there?
Do you really want to appear as a complete idiot?..... If you've got a brain....USE IT!
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There were several black employees who worked in TSBD. What are the odds that he would guess that Jarman passed by the lunch room and was accompanied by just one other person?
It would be easier to believe he was just guessing if he said Jarman was alone or said he was with a group of employees.
Oswald sat in his snipers nest all lunch and at the windows directly below two men suddenly appear, guess who?
JohnM
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He could have picked just about anyone who worked there and said they passed by. And they probably did given the time and location and fact that many employees were heading out for the motorcade. Oswald had also worked there for weeks and observed the patterns of behavior. He would have know who had lunch where and with whom on a typical day. It would be no great feat to make something up. More importantly, though, who saw Oswald there? Old Ozzie was perhaps the most politically astute person in the entire TSBD workforce but he is not going to even bother to step outside to watch the presidential motorcade. The same guy who checked JFK's book out of the library to read. And the fantasy conspirators are going to trust the entire plot to frame Oswald to luck by allowing him to roam about the building during the assassination and not be noticed by anyone who could give him an alibi or even do the most likely thing that day to head out of the building in the company of dozens of coworkers, cameras etc. It is laughable.
He could have picked just about anyone who worked there and said they passed by.
Yeah sure, except he described exactly those two individuals who were actually there.
And they probably did given the time and location and fact that many employees were heading out for the motorcade.
The sighting happened at around 12:25 when most employees were already outside in front of the building. When Jarman and Norman entered through the backdoor there was nobody else there, at least they didn't see anybody there.
Oswald had also worked there for weeks and observed the patterns of behavior. He would have know who had lunch where and with whom on a typical day. It would be no great feat to make something up.
Except this wasn't a typical day, so his observations would have been worthless
More importantly, though, who saw Oswald there?
And pray tell, who saw Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:25? The answer is; nobody.... so your conclusion must be that he wasn't there, right?
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Oswald sat in his snipers nest all lunch and at the windows directly below two men suddenly appear, guess who?
JohnM
Do you have a single witness who said they saw Lee Oswald hanging far out of the window in a manner that he could have seen Jarman and Norman who were standing with their backs to the SE corner of the TSBD. ???
Oswald sat in his snipers nest all lunch ....Did he and Bonnie Ray Williams share the SE corner?
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He could have picked just about anyone who worked there and said they passed by.
Yeah sure, except he described exactly those two individuals who were actually there.
And they probably did given the time and location and fact that many employees were heading out for the motorcade.
The sighting happened at around 12:25 when most employees were already outside in front of the building. When Jarman and Norman entered through the backdoor there was nobody else there, at least they didn't see anybody there.
Oswald had also worked there for weeks and observed the patterns of behavior. He would have know who had lunch where and with whom on a typical day. It would be no great feat to make something up.
Except this wasn't a typical day, so his observations would have been worthless
More importantly, though, who saw Oswald there?
And pray tell, who saw Oswald on the 6th floor at 12:25? The answer is; nobody.... so your conclusion must be that he wasn't there, right?
So the contrarian who believe no evidence, no matter how solid, when it relates to Oswald's guilt entertains this theory? LOL. Again, who saw Oswald there? Would the conspirators frame an individual for this crime while he was freely roaming about the building and could be in the presence of anyone or, if he acted reasonably, be on the street with dozens of witnesses to give him an alibi? And as John points out, Oswald can observe events from the 6th floor window including folks entering the building. It's laughable to suggest that because Oswald said he was somewhere else in the building that this constitutes an alibi. Particularly coming from a contrarian who applies an impossible standard of proof to any evidence that suggests guilt.
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Do you have a single witness who said they saw Lee Oswald hanging far out of the window in a manner that he could have seen Jarman and Norman who were standing with their backs to the SE corner of the TSBD. ???
Oswald sat in his snipers nest all lunch ....Did he and Bonnie Ray Williams share the SE corner?
Do you have a single witness who places Oswald in the domino room or anywhere else in the building at the time of the assassination?
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Oswald sat in his snipers nest all lunch and at the windows directly below two men suddenly appear, guess who?
JohnM
If Oswald sat in the snipers nest he would not have been able to see who was directly below him on the sidewalk, as you demonstrated so perfectly by posting this picture;
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqBq3VHR/01-Texas-School-Book-Depository.jpg)
and btw, two man did not suddenly appear on the sidewalk, they left it, by turning left and walking next to the building on the Houston street sidewalk.
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So the contrarian who believe no evidence, no matter how solid, when it relates to Oswald's guilt entertains this theory? LOL. Again, who saw Oswald there? Would the conspirators frame an individual for this crime while he was freely roaming about the building and could be in the presence of anyone or, if he acted reasonably, be on the street with dozens of witnesses to give him an alibi? And as John points out, Oswald can observe events from the 6th floor window including folks entering the building. It's laughable to suggest that because Oswald said he was somewhere else in the building that this constitutes an alibi. Particularly coming from a contrarian who applies an impossible standard of proof to any evidence that suggests guilt.
So the contrarian who believe no evidence, no matter how solid, when it relates to Oswald's guilt entertains this theory?
BS. I merely corrected you misrepresentations. But now you have made me curious. What "solid" evidence are you talking about?
And I do believe conclusive evidence, just not the superficial BS that you call "evidence".
Do you have a single witness who places Oswald in the domino room or anywhere else in the building at the time of the assassination?
Nobody, that we know of, saw Oswald anywhere at the time of the assassination. That also includes the 6th floor. So now what?
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Do you have a single witness who said they saw Lee Oswald hanging far out of the window in a manner that he could have seen Jarman and Norman who were standing with their backs to the SE corner of the TSBD. ???
He meant the two men Oswald linked together showed up as a pair at the fifth floor windows beneath the SN.
Oswald sat in his snipers nest all lunch ....Did he and Bonnie Ray Williams share the SE corner?
Arnold Rowland vs. Howard Brennan.
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And the fantasy conspirators are going to trust the entire plot to frame Oswald to luck by allowing him to roam about the building during the assassination and not be noticed by anyone who could give him an alibi or even do the most likely thing that day to head out of the building in the company of dozens of coworkers, cameras etc. It is laughable.
Exactly, these Conspirators have apperently gone to all the trouble of having photos ready of Oswald holding the rifle, created a massive document chain linking Oswald to the rifle, plant the rifle, etc etc and after all this effort make the most fundamental mistake of all time and simply let Oswald do as he pleases all during lunch so he could be seen by anybody? And what is really odd is that these CT's actually believe that's precisely what happened.
JohnM
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Exactly, these Conspirators have apperently gone to all the trouble of having photos ready of Oswald holding the rifle, created a massive document chain linking Oswald to the rifle, plant the rifle, etc etc and after all this effort make the most fundamental mistake of all time and simply let Oswald do as he pleases all during lunch so he could be seen by anybody? And what is really odd is that these CT's actually believe that's precisely what happened.
JohnM
How did they even know Oswald was in the building at the time of the shooting? That he wasn't outside watching the motorcade? Hell, that he was even at work that day?
In order to frame a person they have to be "frameable." That is, they can't have an alibi that can be corroborated by other witnesses. And that the evidence framing them is plausible.
We see all sorts of limits on the ability to frame Oswald. The conspiracy believers don't see such limits. This all powerful "they" and "them" can do anything. Plant evidence, alter films, intimidate and coerce witnesses...there are no limits. It's this conspiracy mindset that we cannot reason with. We see it in all sorts of conspiracy beliefs that always involve these powerful elements that have unlimited power.
They had such unlimited power that the only way they could stop JFK from threatening their power - by ending the Cold War, leaving Vietnam, dismantling the national security state, making nice with Castro, whatever - was to shoot him in broad daylight in the middle of a street with hundreds of people watching, many with cameras. That's simply absurd. And, if you're going to do all of this anyway, you're going to plant witnesses in the crowd to claim they saw Oswald shoot JFK. Among other things.
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Exactly, these Conspirators have apperently gone to all the trouble of having photos ready of Oswald holding the rifle, created a massive document chain linking Oswald to the rifle, plant the rifle, etc etc and after all this effort make the most fundamental mistake of all time and simply let Oswald do as he pleases all during lunch so he could be seen by anybody? And what is really odd is that these CT's actually believe that's precisely what happened.
JohnM
make the most fundamental mistake of all time and simply let Oswald do as he pleases all during lunch so he could be seen by anybody
Psssst.... Johnny, Did anybody report seeing Lee Oswald during the period the parade was passing by the TSBD?
Do you suppose that Lee didn't want to be seen ?..... The play that he was playing the lead role in called for the STAGED attempt to shoot JFK.... Lee thought that he would flee to Cuba after the STAGED attempt and be welcomed by Castro. His mission was to infiltrate Castro's island bastion and try to learn if the nuclear missiles had been removed from the island.
If he had been anywhere that someone could have seen him and reported that they had seen him during the the time when he was allegedly trying to shoot JFK, his neck would have been in Castro's noose. Thus he remained out of sight there in the NE corner of the 1st floor... I'm sure you can look at the plat of the first floor and see that Lee could easily have stepped out of sight in the restroom, or the shower if anybody approached.
ttps://postimages.org/](https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg)[/url]
Perhaps you would argue that there was no shower right off the Domino room, that Lee could have ducked into to remain out of sight to anybody passing by. ( Not likely with everybody leaving the building to see JFK) But the shower was there if he needed to duck out of sight....See page 148 of the WR.
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Exactly, these Conspirators have apperently gone to all the trouble of having photos ready of Oswald holding the rifle, created a massive document chain linking Oswald to the rifle, plant the rifle, etc etc and after all this effort make the most fundamental mistake of all time and simply let Oswald do as he pleases all during lunch so he could be seen by anybody? And what is really odd is that these CT's actually believe that's precisely what happened.
JohnM
This sounds like; I know it's impossible, because I can't figure out or comprehend what the magician did or how he did it.
What if, the answer is far simpler than you think?
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This sounds like; it must be magic, because I can't figure out or comprehend what they did and how they did it.
What if, the answer is far simpler than you think?
This sounds like; it must be magic, because I can't figure out or comprehend what they did and how they did it.
What if, the answer is far simpler than you think?
I can't figure out or comprehend what they did and how they did it
John, ol chum.... You might as well go back to watching old TV reruns, or some other activity to occupy your time because as you've said...."I can't figure out or comprehend what they did and how they did it" IOW John, you simply don't have what it takes to solve the riddle. You insist on looking at the problem from a very warped perspective..... ( kinda like trying to thread a needle while using a warped mirror ) And you refuse to throw the warped mirror ( the WR) away because you insist the mirror is not flawed, but in in your heart you know that it is, you just lack the ability to be honest with yourself.
I've always liked the analogy of someone learning that Charles Manson was their father, and their mother was one of Charlies whores.... That kind of truth is nearly impossible for a person to accept.....hence ...They deny deny deny....
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Exactly, these Conspirators have apperently gone to all the trouble of having photos ready of Oswald holding the rifle, created a massive document chain linking Oswald to the rifle, plant the rifle, etc etc and after all this effort make the most fundamental mistake of all time and simply let Oswald do as he pleases all during lunch so he could be seen by anybody? And what is really odd is that these CT's actually believe that's precisely what happened.
JohnM
CTers are impervious to common sense and logic. They allege a conspiracy to frame Oswald that would have involved multiple law enforcement agencies, private businesses, and random citizens dating back for years but at the crucial moment of the assassination they suggest Oswald was in a public part of the TSBD where someone might give him an alibi. And for all they knew, he could have been out on the street being filmed blowing kisses to JFK as the motorcade drove by. It is breathtaking in its stupidity.
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CTers are impervious to common sense and logic. They allege a conspiracy to frame Oswald that would have involved multiple law enforcement agencies, private businesses, and random citizens dating back for years but at the crucial moment of the assassination they suggest Oswald was in a public part of the TSBD where someone might give him an alibi. And for all they knew, he could have been out on the street being filmed blowing kisses to JFK as the motorcade drove by. It is breathtaking in its stupidity.
When LNs run out of credible arguments and/or evidence they start talking amongst themselves how the people that see through their crap are "impervious to common sense and logic"
Firgured out yet how the magician did his trick?
they suggest Oswald was in a public part of the TSBD where someone might give him an alibi.
Or alternatively, like the LNs suggest, a couple of minutes prior to the assassination and no way to tell when exactly the motorcade arrived, the killer on the 6th floor stuck his head and torso out of the window to see who was on the the sidewalk right below the window. Yeah, that makes sense....
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CTers are impervious to common sense and logic. They allege a conspiracy to frame Oswald that would have involved multiple law enforcement agencies, private businesses, and random citizens dating back for years but at the crucial moment of the assassination they suggest Oswald was in a public part of the TSBD where someone might give him an alibi. And for all they knew, he could have been out on the street being filmed blowing kisses to JFK as the motorcade drove by. It is breathtaking in its stupidity.
Mr "Smith" this is no place for you....You clearly lack the ability to reason. You can see only what you want to see.... "None is so blind as he who will not see"
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Ah, but:
Miss ADAMS. When I got there (the front of the building, A.F.), I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" And she said, "I don't know."
Have you pondered the implications of the above for your timeline, Mr Nessan? It would seem not!
Thumb1:
Those who sincerely wish to establish how quickly Ms Adams and Ms Styles reached the front of the building need ask themselves a simple question:
What account did Mr Joe Molina and Ms Avery Davis give of their own movements post-assassination?
Well, it turns out both of them made clear that they remained at the front of the building for only a very short time. This provides very strong corroboration for Ms Adams' claimed timeline.
Thumb1:
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How did they even know Oswald was in the building at the time of the shooting? That he wasn't outside watching the motorcade? Hell, that he was even at work that day?
In order to frame a person they have to be "frameable." That is, they can't have an alibi that can be corroborated by other witnesses. And that the evidence framing them is plausible.
We see all sorts of limits on the ability to frame Oswald. The conspiracy believers don't see such limits.
~Yawn~
Mr Oswald was not being framed as gunman by those behind the assassination, though he was framed as such after the event by those in charge of the 'investigation'. Any other questions?
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~Yawn~
Mr Oswald was not being framed as gunman by those behind the assassination, though he was framed as such after the event by those in charge of the 'investigation'. Any other questions?
Lee was being framed by Henry Wade and Fritz of the DPD, and J. Edgar Hoover and his "extra special " special agents. They never thought that they would have to contend with Lee Oswald after the assassination because they expected that he would be shot by an "alert cop" in the minutes following the assassination.
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CTers are impervious to common sense and logic. They allege a conspiracy to frame Oswald that would have involved multiple law enforcement agencies, private businesses, and random citizens dating back for years but at the crucial moment of the assassination they suggest Oswald was in a public part of the TSBD where someone might give him an alibi. And for all they knew, he could have been out on the street being filmed blowing kisses to JFK as the motorcade drove by. It is breathtaking in its stupidity.
Watching these CT's trying relentlessly and failing miserably to come to grips with the very foundation of this whole assassination of why the Conspirators let Oswald roam wild while "they" busily prepared a mountain of evidence to frame the very same Oswald is a scary window into how deeply troubled paranoid minds work.
But admittedly their combined replies are hilarious, where one of their prized members alludes to the whole assassination being just a magic trick and with a wave of a wand and shouting Abracadabra made Oswald just disappear to where we don't know because that's conveniently never specified and then we have allegations that we simply lack the ability to understand Police corruption and obviously these "clever" CT's, who unbelievably think that LNers exist in some sort of vacuum, and the CT's are the only ones who have a unique ability to have an "understanding of how this DPD machine for framing innocent men" works(yawn) and then on top of that we have more absurd claims that it was supposed to be a STAGED event and while Oswald was on his way to Cuba to discover Nuclear weapons, Oswald had an uncontrollable urge for popcorn and a couple of War movies, the staggering overwhelming conceitedness that motivates these deluded CT's is beyond bewilderment but is good for a laugh.
And laughing at their bizarre attempts at "deductive reasoning" is the reason that keeps me coming back, so if any of you "critical thinkers" is reading this please, please, please keep it up. Hehehe.
JohnM
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Very interesting, Avery Davis looked out the window on the 4th floor and could see straight down to the sidewalk and naturally she says she couldn't see a particular persons face of someone she didn't know but Oswald seeing two black men that he knew and saw during the Morning and knew what they were wearing and their comparative sizes, hairstyles and etc, etc, and ,well, it's another slam dunk ! Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCKdMG1G/Avery-Davis-look-straight-down-to-sidewalk.jpg)
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190266/m1/1/
And the following graphic which is grounded on scientific principles compares Oswald's line of sight as compared to Avery Davis and she was two floors below, the graphic isn't her window but the same formula and same angle is mathematically repeated across the entire floor. Thumb1: Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDHQSJKf/01-Texas-School-Book-Depository-1.jpg)
(https://c.tenor.com/rCuV9DYKBwAAAAAC/the-mask-thats-gotta-hurt.gif)
JohnM
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Avery Davis has established beyond all doubt that Oswald could have easily seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk below but that's not the only evidence that Oswald would have known the two men were hanging out together because Jarman and Norman were moving through the building together and arrived at the windows directly below and since Norman could hear shells striking the floor, it follows that Oswald heard the men opening windows and assuming they weren't as quiet as church mice, Oswald would have heard them talking.
Jarman was in the 4th window and the following GIF shows Norman in the end window and Williams who arrived a bit later was in the window next to Norman.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90qSCgSd/Powell-Dillard-boxes2.gif)
Depending on the exact timing, Brennan describes Oswald pausing as though to assure himself that he hit his mark and as Brennan said in his first day affidavit that "He(Oswald) did not seem to be in any hurry" and under those parameters and considering that Jarman ran over to tell the others that "someone was shooting the President" is an example where Oswald could have heard the two men. And of course Williams arriving and no doubt greeting his fellow workmates would have created more opportunities for Oswald to hear what was being said below and by whom.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JARMAN - Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
JohnM
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Very interesting, Avery Davis looked out the window on the 4th floor and could see straight down to the sidewalk and naturally she says she couldn't see a particular persons face of someone she didn't know but Oswald seeing two black men that he knew and saw during the Morning and knew what they were wearing and their comparative sizes, hairstyles and etc, etc, and ,well, it's another slam dunk ! Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCKdMG1G/Avery-Davis-look-straight-down-to-sidewalk.jpg)
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190266/m1/1/
And the following graphic which is grounded on scientific principles compares Oswald's line of sight as compared to Avery Davis and she was two floors below, the graphic isn't her window but the same formula and same angle is mathematically repeated across the entire floor. Thumb1: Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDHQSJKf/01-Texas-School-Book-Depository-1.jpg)
(https://c.tenor.com/rCuV9DYKBwAAAAAC/the-mask-thats-gotta-hurt.gif)
JohnM
Where in the document does it say the police men were standing on the sidewalk straight below the 4th floor window?
Let me guess; you just assumed that part, just like you always misrepresent evidence.
You seem to have forgotten (or ignored) that there is also a sidewalk running next to Elm street which - unlike the sidewalk directly next to the TSBD - would be visible for anybody looking "straight down" from the 4th floor.
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Avery Davis has established beyond all doubt that Oswald could have easily seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk below but that's not the only evidence that Oswald would have known the two men were hanging out together because Jarman and Norman were moving through the building together and arrived at the windows directly below and since Norman could hear shells striking the floor, it follows that Oswald heard the men opening windows and assuming they weren't as quiet as church mice, Oswald would have heard them talking.
Jarman was in the 4th window and the following GIF shows Norman in the end window and Williams who arrived a bit later was in the window next to Norman.
[Image deleted]
Depending on the exact timing, Brennan describes Oswald pausing as though to assure himself that he hit his mark and as Brennan said in his first day affidavit that "He(Oswald) did not seem to be in any hurry" and under those parameters and considering that Jarman ran over to tell the others that "someone was shooting the President" is an example where Oswald could have heard the two men. And of course Williams arriving and no doubt greeting his fellow workmates would have created more opportunities for Oswald to hear what was being said below and by whom.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JARMAN - Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
JohnM
Avery Davis has established beyond all doubt that Oswald could have easily seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk below
BS. Your assumption, that the police men standing on the sidewalk she saw were standing right below her window, is not evidence.
Classic superficial LN: Make an (false) assumption, build a "theory" on it and reach the desired "conclusion"
Oswald would have known the two men were hanging out together because Jarman and Norman were moving through the building together and arrived at the windows directly below and since Norman could hear shells striking the floor, it follows that Oswald heard the men opening windows and assuming they weren't as quiet as church mice, Oswald would have heard them talking.
More BS. Even if Oswald was on the 6th floor - which seems unlikely - and even if he could have seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk - which he couldn't - and even if he heard them later on the 5th floor and recognized them from their voices, it still doesn't explain how he would have known that Jarman and Norman walked around the building and entered in the back.
When you start making up "evidence", please, at least, try to make it somewhat plausible and convincing.
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Avery Davis has established beyond all doubt that Oswald could have easily seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk below but that's not the only evidence that Oswald would have known the two men were hanging out together because Jarman and Norman were moving through the building together and arrived at the windows directly below and since Norman could hear shells striking the floor, it follows that Oswald heard the men opening windows and assuming they weren't as quiet as church mice, Oswald would have heard them talking.
Jarman was in the 4th window and the following GIF shows Norman in the end window and Williams who arrived a bit later was in the window next to Norman.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90qSCgSd/Powell-Dillard-boxes2.gif)
Depending on the exact timing, Brennan describes Oswald pausing as though to assure himself that he hit his mark and as Brennan said in his first day affidavit that "He(Oswald) did not seem to be in any hurry" and under those parameters and considering that Jarman ran over to tell the others that "someone was shooting the President" is an example where Oswald could have heard the two men. And of course Williams arriving and no doubt greeting his fellow workmates would have created more opportunities for Oswald to hear what was being said below and by whom.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JARMAN - Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
JohnM
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
He was STANDING
Johnny it's time to extract your head and LOOK at the photos of the window at the SE corner of the sixth floor.....
A man could NOT stand and perform the act that Brennan described at that location.
We know that there were boxes of books stacked about a foot behind the window. They would have forced any standing shooter to stand against the window. And the shooter could not have aimed the rifle out of the HALF OPEN window. The horizontal sash at the bottom of the window would have prevented the rifle from being aimed out of the window. If there had been a man STANDING there with a rifle and he had fired the rifle he would have fired into the cement ledge beneath the window.
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Avery Davis has established beyond all doubt that Oswald could have easily seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk below
BS. Your assumption, that the police men standing on the sidewalk she saw were standing right below her window, is not evidence.
Classic superficial LN: Make an (false) assumption, build a "theory" on it and reach the desired "conclusion"
Oswald would have known the two men were hanging out together because Jarman and Norman were moving through the building together and arrived at the windows directly below and since Norman could hear shells striking the floor, it follows that Oswald heard the men opening windows and assuming they weren't as quiet as church mice, Oswald would have heard them talking.
More BS. Even if Oswald was on the 6th floor - which seems unlikely - and even if he could have seen Jarman and Norman on the sidewalk - which he couldn't - and even if he heard them later on the 5th floor and recognized them from their voices, it still doesn't explain how he would have known that Jarman and Norman walked around the building and entered in the back.
When you start making up "evidence", please, at least, try to make it somewhat plausible and convincing.
When LN'ers are guilty of doing the same exact things they accuse CT'ers of doing.
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He could have picked just about anyone who worked there and said they passed by. And they probably did given the time and location and fact that many employees were heading out for the motorcade. Oswald had also worked there for weeks and observed the patterns of behavior. He would have know who had lunch where and with whom on a typical day. It would be no great feat to make something up. More importantly, though, who saw Oswald there? Old Ozzie was perhaps the most politically astute person in the entire TSBD workforce but he is not going to even bother to step outside to watch the presidential motorcade. The same guy who checked JFK's book out of the library to read. And the fantasy conspirators are going to trust the entire plot to frame Oswald to luck by allowing him to roam about the building during the assassination and not be noticed by anyone who could give him an alibi or even do the most likely thing that day to head out of the building in the company of dozens of coworkers, cameras etc. It is laughable.
You certainly are consistent with your circular logic.
You're confident that Oswald did it therefore all inconsistencies with the evidence are irrelevant to you.
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How did they even know Oswald was in the building at the time of the shooting? That he wasn't outside watching the motorcade? Hell, that he was even at work that day?
In order to frame a person they have to be "frameable." That is, they can't have an alibi that can be corroborated by other witnesses. And that the evidence framing them is plausible.
We see all sorts of limits on the ability to frame Oswald. The conspiracy believers don't see such limits. This all powerful "they" and "them" can do anything. Plant evidence, alter films, intimidate and coerce witnesses...there are no limits. It's this conspiracy mindset that we cannot reason with. We see it in all sorts of conspiracy beliefs that always involve these powerful elements that have unlimited power.
They had such unlimited power that the only way they could stop JFK from threatening their power - by ending the Cold War, leaving Vietnam, dismantling the national security state, making nice with Castro, whatever - was to shoot him in broad daylight in the middle of a street with hundreds of people watching, many with cameras. That's simply absurd. And, if you're going to do all of this anyway, you're going to plant witnesses in the crowd to claim they saw Oswald shoot JFK. Among other things.
Attempts were made post-assassination to connect Oswald to Castro.
On November 23, members of the Cuban Student Directorate, a CIA-funded organization based in Miami, published a special edition of their monthly magazine, Trinchera (Trenches), in which they linked the accused assassin Lee Oswald to Cuban president Fidel Castro. This was the first JFK conspiracy scenario to reach public print.
https://jfkfacts.org/nov-23-1963-the-first-jfk-conspiracy-theory-paid-for-by-the-cia/
The conventional wisdom might've been that connecting a "communist" with alleged ties to Cuba to the assassination of President Kennedy would've guaranteed that Johnson go to war against Cuba the same way the CIA assumed that the failed Bay of Pigs invasion was going to force Kennedy to invade Cuba.
President Johnson's decision to stay silent about his own suspicions of a communist plot in order to avoid WWIII wasn't predictable. He defied assumptions and expectations.
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Attempts were made post-assassination to connect Oswald to Castro.
On November 23, members of the Cuban Student Directorate, a CIA-funded organization based in Miami, published a special edition of their monthly magazine, Trinchera (Trenches), in which they linked the accused assassin Lee Oswald to Cuban president Fidel Castro. This was the first JFK conspiracy scenario to reach public print.
https://jfkfacts.org/nov-23-1963-the-first-jfk-conspiracy-theory-paid-for-by-the-cia/
The conventional wisdom might've been that connecting a "communist" with alleged ties to Cuba to the assassination of President Kennedy would've guaranteed that Johnson go to war against Cuba the same way the CIA assumed that the failed Bay of Pigs invasion was going to force Kennedy to invade Cuba.
President Johnson's decision to stay silent about his own suspicions of a communist plot in order to avoid WWIII wasn't predictable. He defied assumptions and expectations.
President Johnson's decision to stay silent about his own suspicions of a communist plot in order to avoid WWIII wasn't predictable. He defied assumptions and expectations.
LBJ didn't harbor any suspicions about a communist plot.... He KNEW the murder of John Kennedy was nothing but an old fashioned coup d'etat. He created the "Blue Ribbon Committee" to "investigate" and then tell the gullible pissants that JFK was murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald and Oswald acted alone and he had no confederates ...and Oswald did it for no reason at all...he was just a nut.
Amazingly many of the gullible pissants still believe that even after there has been ample evidence that LBJ himself was the king pin.
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President Johnson's decision to stay silent about his own suspicions of a communist plot in order to avoid WWIII wasn't predictable. He defied assumptions and expectations.
LBJ didn't harbor any suspicions about a communist plot.... He KNEW the murder of John Kennedy was nothing but an old fashioned coup d'etat. He created the "Blue Ribbon Committee" to "investigate" and then tell the gullible pissants that JFK was murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald and Oswald acted alone and he had no confederates ...and Oswald did it for no reason at all...he was just a nut.
Amazingly many of the gullible pissants still believe that even after there has been ample evidence that LBJ himself was the king pin.
Johnson publicly admitted shortly before he died that he suspected that there was a communist conspiracy. So whatever his role in the plot (or lack thereof), he knowingly participated in the cover up and suppression of inconvenient facts in the initial aftermath of JFK's murder.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz8WJ5Dn/POSTCARD-STAND-THREE.png)
BILL CHAPMAN
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwY0TLzD/POSTCARD-STAND-ONE.png)
BILL CHAPMAN
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJgH4CgJ/POSTCARD-STAND-TWO.png)
BILL CHAPMAN
----------------
BONUS TIP for
HIGH SCHOOL
DROP-OUTS &
OSWALD ARSE
KISSERS aka
OAKers
;D ;D ;D
----------------
> See above
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(https://i.postimg.cc/GtjqkKL0/NO-THEORIES-NEEDED.png)
billchapman
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On the right side of the image shows the front of the Depository and the camera on the sidewalk is roughly half way from the building to the road and we can clearly see the 4th floor window which is highlighted red and as long as the camera stays the same distance from the building as it travels along the sidewalk the red window will always be fully visible.
The 5th floor window with the three men for reference shows the relative same window as highlighted on the 4th floor and if someone was standing where the three men are, and looking anywhere through the same height windows on the 4th floor they would see the camera on the sidewalk and therefore Avery could look straight down to the sidewalk as she says.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tNtDVrF/Depositry-4th-floor-and-3-mena.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCKdMG1G/Avery-Davis-look-straight-down-to-sidewalk.jpg)
Btw from behind the higher 6th floor window I don't know if Oswald would be able to see the sidewalk through the same red window?, but as previously discussed and with this added analysis Oswald would have no trouble while seated on the window sill or just poking his head slightly out.
JohnM
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On the right side of the image shows the front of the Depository and the camera on the sidewalk is roughly half way from the building to the road and we can clearly see the 4th floor window which is highlighted red and as long as the camera stays the same distance from the building as it travels along the sidewalk the red window will always be fully visible.
The 5th floor window with the three men for reference shows the relative same window as highlighted on the 4th floor and if someone was standing where the three men are, and looking anywhere through the same height windows on the 4th floor they would see the camera on the sidewalk and therefore Avery could look straight down to the sidewalk as she says.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tNtDVrF/Depositry-4th-floor-and-3-mena.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCKdMG1G/Avery-Davis-look-straight-down-to-sidewalk.jpg)
Btw from behind the higher 6th floor window I don't know if Oswald would be able to see the sidewalk through the same red window?, but as previously discussed and with this added analysis Oswald would have no trouble while seated on the window sill or just poking his head slightly out.
JohnM
On the right side of the image shows the front of the Depository and the camera on the sidewalk is roughly half way from the building to the road and we can clearly see the 4th floor window which is highlighted red and as long as the camera stays the same distance from the building as it travels along the sidewalk the red window will always be fully visible.
Wow, that's really something. What a revelation. If you stand on the sidewalk and look up you can see the outside of a window on the 4th floor. Too bad it's meaningless. Show us a shot from the 4th floor which demonstrates the line of sight of somebody standing straight behind that window. Then you may have something, but this BS is only showing your desperation.
The 5th floor window with the three men for reference shows the relative same window as highlighted on the 4th floor and if someone was standing where the three men are, and looking anywhere through the same height windows on the 4th floor they would see the camera on the sidewalk and therefore Avery could look straight down to the sidewalk as she says.
Too bad we just can't take your word for that. It's once again the same LN trick; Make an (false) assumption, build a "theory" on it and reach the desired "conclusion".
Your picture of the guys on the 5th floor does not show their line of sight, when they look down. It is in fact a completely meaningless photograph and of course your "conclusion" is just as bogus.
Btw from behind the higher 6th floor window I don't know if Oswald would be able to see the sidewalk through the same red window?, but as previously discussed and with this added analysis Oswald would have no trouble while seated on the window sill or just poking his head slightly out.
Aha, backtracking already.... Let me shatter your wet dream; when you stand behind a window on the 6th floor there is no way you can see the sidewalk directly in front of the building, unless you stick your head and entire torso out of the window.
And, as expected of course, you have failed to provide evidence that the police men Avery saw were actually standing on that sidewalk right below her window to begin with.
It's back to the drawingboard, Johnny.... because you've got nothing!
Btw what window is that where those guys are standing. Judging by the parked cars that can be seen in the window left below, it can't be a window facing Elm street!
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(https://i.postimg.cc/GtjqkKL0/NO-THEORIES-NEEDED.png)
billchapman
More circular logic.
"Inconsistencies in the Ofc. Tippit evidence and witness statements don't matter because Oswald did it"
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**Totally not a conspiracy theory**
Oswald knew the motorcade was running late because he had a radio and he spotted Junior Jarman from the sixth floor out of crowds of people because he had binoculars.
Slam dunk Thumb1:
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(https://images2.imgbox.com/c5/df/wA72bOw7_o.jpg)
Nice graphic Jerry, and shows that Oswald didn't need to have his " entire torso" hanging out the window LOL and as I said Oswald just needed to stick his head slightly out. And from your graphic from that position he could see ALL of the sidewalk which is even more than I predicted. Thumb1:
Btw some people have no idea how a window works,
JohnM
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Those who sincerely wish to establish how quickly Ms Adams and Ms Styles reached the front of the building need ask themselves a simple question:
What account did Mr Joe Molina and Ms Avery Davis give of their own movements post-assassination?
Well, it turns out both of them made clear that they remained at the front of the building for only a very short time. This provides very strong corroboration for Ms Adams' claimed timeline.
Thumb1:
I hereby reopen my cordial invitation to Mr Nessan (or any other Warren Gullible) to reconcile the Warren Report timeline for Ms Adams with the below-------------------------
Miss ADAMS. When I got there (the front of the building, A.F.), I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" And she said, "I don't know."
Thumb1:
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And for what? So that he can later correctly "guess" that exactly those two men he saw on the sidewalk would walk around the building and enter it at the back at a location that can be seen from the Domino room, some 5 minutes prior to the assassination.
Thank You, Martin..... You've pointed out the most ridiculous part of Myton's insane fabrication. I once had some respect for Myton.... Now I simply pity him. He clearly cannot reason rationally......
Huh? For as long as I can remember you have always been calling me names which shows absolutely no respect so stop your never ending urge to fabricate, it just erodes whatever credibility you had left which now stands at less than zero!
Oswald before the unexpected assassination had no qualms about being seen and in fact exposed his entire head and torso by sitting on the window sill as testified by Howard Brennan(*1) and as Oswald had left most of his money and wedding ring with Marina, Oswald knew there would be no return from his murderous act which is exemplified when Oswald attempted to kill Walker, Oswald's note specifically says "IF I am alive and taken prisoner"(*2) Oswald is fully aware of what the outcome would be if he murdered someone which is reinforced by Oswald's insightful comment after killing a Police Officer, "Well, you fry for that,".
And as for the reason for Oswald scoping the street below would be, and as I have always maintained is to check out who was where because some of Oswald's fellow workers did discuss watching the Presidential Parade from the sixth floor(*3) and we know Bonnie Ray did in fact come up to Oswald's sixth floor which would have made Oswald even more determined to see if anybody else would follow in the footsteps of Bonnie Ray. So seeing Jarman and Norman disappear would have made Oswald nervous but fortunately for Oswald and unfortunately for Kennedy they both went to the fifth floor.
The reason for Oswald wanting to maintain control over his immediate destiny is abundantly clear and the fact that I am encountering so much hostility only means that you guys know it too. Thumb1:
(*1)Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
(*2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0vjkVsC/CE-1-walker-note.jpg)
(*3)Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
JohnM
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And as for the reason for Oswald scoping the street below would be, and as I have always maintained is to check out who was where because some of Oswald's fellow workers did discuss watching the Presidential Parade from the sixth floor(*3) and we know Bonnie Ray did in fact come up to Oswald's sixth floor which would have made Oswald even more determined to see if anybody else would follow in the footsteps of Bonnie Ray. So seeing Jarman and Norman disappear would have made Oswald nervous but fortunately for Oswald and unfortunately for Kennedy they both went to the fifth floor.
Exactly-----------the sixth floor would have been an insane choice for a Depository-employed lone wolf gunman, who could have every expectation of company from fellow workers and would have to trust to remarkable luck. Why not simply choose the seventh floor instead?
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It's a little ironic because I'm not sure that Lee knew that he was offering an airtight alibi when he told Fritz that he saw Junior, and a short statured man walk by the domino room as he sat there in the Domino Room eating his lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
JohnM
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Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
JohnM
More Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Cherrypicking!
Bookhout Interrogation Report, 11/23:
(https://i.imgur.com/CKlJF5s.jpg)
And then of course we have this in Captain Fritz's own handwriting:
(https://i.imgur.com/mARM7CS.jpg)
At no point did Mr Oswald claim he ate lunch WITH these two men.
He did however claim he consumed the remainder of his lunch (sandwich/apple/Coke) in the presence of PLENTY other employees out on the front steps---------because he had gone outside to the watch the P. Parade
Thumb1:
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The sixth floor would NOT have been chosen by anyone NOT confident that the space could be kept clear of employees. It certainly would NOT have been chosen by a lone wolf gunman, such as Mr Oswald is alleged to have been.
Mr Oswald was not on the sixth floor during any of the period the poor Warren Gullibles need him to be there. He was downstairs the entire time.
Others however were on the sixth floor------------------and they controlled the space, flashing fake credentials to any employee who may have happened to come up.
Question! Why did manual workers NOT choose the sixth floor, despite having earlier agreed to do so? See above!
Question! Why did Mr Bonnie Ray Williams leave the sixth floor, and wildly change his story as to WHEN he did this? Because he was told to leave the floor by men he believed at the time to be security detail.
Question! Why did Messrs Norman & Jarman NOT choose the sixth floor and instead choose the fifth? Because they saw Mr Williams on his own up at the FIFTH floor window and decided to join him.
Thumb1:
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More Soopah-Doopah-Mytton-Cherrypicking!
Bookhout Interrogation Report, 11/23:
(https://i.imgur.com/CKlJF5s.jpg)
And then of course we have this in Captain Fritz's own handwriting:
(https://i.imgur.com/mARM7CS.jpg)
At no point did Mr Oswald claim he ate lunch WITH these two men.
He did however claim he consumed the remainder of his lunch (sandwich/apple/Coke) in the presence of PLENTY other employees out on the front steps---------because he had gone outside to the watch the P. Parade
Thumb1:
Thank You Mr Ford.... Most folks will see that Captain Fritz was lying when he replied to Ball....However you can be sure that Johnny Myton will continue to believe the lie.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Bookhout Interrogation Report, 11/23:
(https://i.imgur.com/CKlJF5s.jpg)
And then of course we have this in Captain Fritz's own handwriting:
(https://i.imgur.com/mARM7CS.jpg)
At no point did Mr Oswald claim he ate lunch WITH these two men.
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LHO claimed to have been upstairs working and came down to see what was the commotion. In the second floor lunch room he encountered Officer Baker. So much for seeing what the commotion was he needed a pop more. All LHO's alibis are based on using the colored co workers.
USPS Inspector Holmes:
HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
He never made it ti see what the commotion was all about. Apparently having a cold pop was more important.
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I hereby reopen my cordial invitation to Mr Nessan (or any other Warren Gullible) to reconcile the Warren Report timeline for Ms Adams with the below-------------------------
Miss ADAMS. When I got there (the front of the building, A.F.), I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" And she said, "I don't know."
Thumb1:
You brought up Molina and Davis, you explain whatever this is. Zero desire to get involved in your nonsense.
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LHO claimed to have been upstairs working and came down to see what was the commotion. In the second floor lunch room he encountered Officer Baker. So much for seeing what the commotion was he needed a pop more. All LHO's alibis are based on using the colored co workers.
USPS Inspector Holmes:
HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
He never made it ti see what the commotion was all about. Apparently having a cold pop was more important.
Lee Oswald was in the Domino room on the 1st floor at the time the presidents parade passed by the TSBD. THIS IS A FACT!
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Holmes is the only one who includes all aspects of the case. Lunch room encounter, Givens on the sixth floor, and the conversation between LHO and other workers riding the elevator down and the offer to return the elevator back up when everyone left.
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You brought up Molina and Davis, you explain whatever this is.
No, Ms Adams brings them up in her testimony
Zero desire to get involved in your nonsense.
Translated: you have zero ability to neutralize the issue raised by Ms Adams' mention of Mr Molina and Ms Davis.
Ms Adams saw both Mr Molina and Ms Davis in front of the building. If you were familiar with Mr Molina and Ms Davis' accounts of their actions post-shooting, you would know that Ms Adams' mention of them blows your silly 'She left the 4th floor at 12:35' timeline out of the water.
Thumb1:
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Holmes is the only one who includes all aspects of the case. Lunch room encounter
:D
"First floor. The front entrance to the first floor."
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LHO claimed to have been upstairs working and came down to see what was the commotion. In the second floor lunch room he encountered Officer Baker. So much for seeing what the commotion was he needed a pop more. All LHO's alibis are based on using the colored co workers.
Nope. The fact that you, Mr Nessan, can't cope with new evidence doesn't mean the new evidence goes away.
Since 2019, thanks to the unearthing of Mr Hosty's original interrogation report----------------
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
----------------we know exactly what Mr Oswald actually claimed:
1. He broke for lunch around noon
2. He bought a coke in the second-floor lunchroom
3. He returned to the first floor to eat lunch
4. As soon as he heard the excitement out front he went outside to catch the Presidential parade
Mr Holmes is compressing time, is all. His account of a front entrance encounter with cop & Mr Truly chimes uncannily with what DPD were saying 11/22/63 and what Mr Billy Lovelady told Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination. This is very bad news for robotic Warren Gullibles like you!
Thumb1:
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Lee Oswald was in the Domino room on the 1st floor at the time the presidents parade passed by the TSBD. THIS IS A FACT!
Clearly you believe Oswald was completely innocent of any shooting, but out of interest, what is your personal thoughts on his alleged account of his own behaviour afterwards?
i.e. casually getting a Coke, walking outside, not showing any interest or concern in what had just happened and then randomly deciding to just get a bus/taxi (let's not get into a debate about his method of transport) to the theatre to watch a movie without informing anyone at TSBD that he had no intention of returning to work after lunch? All this whilst having a revolver shoved down his pants all day (if his claim of going directly to the theatre after the shooting is to be believed)
Whereby this does't single handedly prove he's guilty, you have to admit it is odd and doesn't exactly help his innocence cause that he seemed eager to get away from the area.
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Clearly you believe Oswald was completely innocent of any shooting, but out of interest, what is your personal thoughts on his alleged account of his own behaviour afterwards?
i.e. casually getting a Coke, walking outside,
Mr Baxter, we know from Agent Hosty's suppressed 11/22 interrogation report that Mr Oswald actually said he bought the Coke and went outside BEFORE Pres. Kennedy passed the building
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Mr Baxter, we know from Agent Hosty's suppressed 11/22 interrogation report that Mr Oswald actually said he bought the Coke and went outside BEFORE Pres. Kennedy passed the building
OK, well feel free to change that to: Casually getting a Coke, walking outside, walking back inside and up to the 2nd floor to encounter encounter Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, walking outside again, not showing any interest or concern in what had just happened and then randomly deciding to just get a bus/taxi (let's not get into a debate about his method of transport) to the theatre to watch a movie without informing anyone at TSBD that he had no intention of returning to work after lunch? All this whilst having a revolver shoved down his pants all day (if his claim of going directly to the theatre after the shooting is to be believed).
It doesn't make his behaviour any less odd.
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Mr Baxter, we know from Agent Hosty's suppressed 11/22 interrogation report that Mr Oswald actually said he bought the Coke and went outside BEFORE Pres. Kennedy passed the building
Unqualified nonsense.
Oswald says nothing of the sort.
There is absolutely no indication whether Oswald got outside in time to see JFK pass by.
In fact, Kelly asks Oswald directly if he saw the parade, Oswald replies that he didn't.
When asked if he was in the building (TSBD) at the time of the shooting Oswald confirms he was. On camera.
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Unqualified nonsense.
Oswald says nothing of the sort.
The denial is strong in this one!
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
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The denial is strong in this one!
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
Where, in Hosty's notes, does it say Oswald went outside BEFORE JFK passed by?
It doesn't.
You simply make your own reality up and believe it to be true.
Read Hosty's notes again. He doesn't say anything like what you are insisting he does.
The only denial is when Kelly reported Oswald denied seeing the parade.
When asked if he was in the building at the time of the shooting, Oswald states that he was. Is that denial?
In Hosty's notes Oswald does not say he went outside before JFK passed by.
Can't you acknowledge this simple error by yourself?
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OK, well feel free to change that to: Casually getting a Coke, walking outside, walking back inside and up to the 2nd floor to encounter encounter Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, walking outside again,
Well, once one stops ignoring this explosive document---------
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
---------the shocking extent to which what Mr Oswald actually said in interrogation was distorted becomes clear.
Mr Oswald never said anything about walking back inside and up to the 2nd floor to encounter Mr Truly and Officer Baker in the lunch room-----------------he said the encounter with the officer and Mr Truly happened at the building's front entrance. This is where DPD (on 11/22/63) told press the encounter happened and where Mr Billy Lovelady (on 11/22/63) told Mr James Jarman he saw the encounter happen.
It was known within a very few hours of the assassination that Mr Oswald had been nowhere near the sixth floor at the time of the motorcade. The 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter was invented to deprive Mr Oswald of his front-entrance alibi for the shooting.
Officer Baker did encounter a man (not Mr Oswald) whom he caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building: his same-day affidavit tells all about it
Thumb1:
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Where, in Hosty's notes, does it say Oswald went outside BEFORE JFK passed by?
It doesn't.
You simply make your own reality up and believe it to be true.
Read Hosty's notes again. He doesn't say anything like what you are insisting he does.
The only denial is when Kelly reported Oswald denied seeing the parade.
When asked if he was in the building at the time of the shooting, Oswald states that he was. Is that denial?
In Hosty's notes Oswald does not say he went outside before JFK passed by.
Can't you acknowledge this simple error by yourself?
Nice try, Mr Mytton O'Meara!
If Mr Oswald said he went outside in the erroneous hope of watching the P. Parade but didn't actually get to do so, then Agent Hosty would most certainly have written more than "Then went outside to watch P. Parade". This was, after all, the single most important issue in the entire interrogation: where did the suspect claim to have been at the time of the shooting? As it stands, the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" are as clear in import as, say, these ones:
(https://i.imgur.com/yHo7N1K.jpg)
As for the Agent Kelley and "in the building" points, they have already been addressed ad nauseam on this thread
Thumb1:
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It was known within a very few hours of the assassination that Mr Oswald had been nowhere near the sixth floor at the time of the motorcade. The 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter was invented to deprive Mr Oswald of his front-entrance alibi for the shooting.
So the lunchroom encounter was invented?
One of the major arguments amongst CTers is that Oswald could not possibly have gotten down from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom in the short space of time from the last shot until the encounter with Truly and Baker, and you're suggesting the meeting was totally made up?
Why if they were going to make it up would they not have added an extra minute or so to the time span to make it more believable then?
By attempting to cover up one alibi all they did was practically create another one.
Doesn't make sense at all
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So the lunchroom encounter was invented?
One of the major arguments amongst CTers is that Oswald could not possibly have gotten down from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom in the short space of time from the last shot until the encounter with Truly and Baker, and you're suggesting the meeting was totally made up?
No---------------it was relocated
Why if they were going to make it up would they not have added an extra minute or so to the time span to make it more believable then?
By attempting to cover up one alibi all they did was practically create another one.
Doesn't make sense at all
It makes perfect sense. The phoney timeline (90 secs) was meticulously constructed to make it possible that Mr Oswald could have descended from 6 in time for the phoney encounter. That's all that was needed.
CTers who have clung to the lunchroom fiction, and all its time implications, have stupidly fallen into the 'investigating' authorities' trap. A complete waste of time and effort.
As for adding an extra minute or so, that wouldn't have been compatible with the (true) story of the officer's rush to get to the top of the building. He had been seen dashing into the building less than 30 seconds after the last shot---------------and DPD had boasted of his speed to all ears, so they couldn't walk that back. How on earth is it going to take him a further 2+ minutes to go up just one floor? Does he stop for a smoke?
Furthermore, a sighting of someone just one floor up in the building some 2+ minutes after the shooting is not a very secure way of protecting the all-important impression that he had been inside the building at the time of the shooting itself. It gives him too much time.
Furthermore #2 (and related to Furthermore #1), a ~90-sec timestamp is a lot more suggestive of an interrupted descent than a ~150-sec timestamp. Go beyond ~90 secs and folks will start wondering, 'Why didn't Oswald just go all the way down to the first floor?'.
Thumb1:
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Nice try, Mr Mytton O'Meara!
If Mr Oswald said he went outside in the erroneous hope of watching the P. Parade but didn't actually get to do so, then Agent Hosty would most certainly have written more than "Then went outside to watch P. Parade". This was, after all, the single most important issue in the entire interrogation: where did the suspect claim to have been at the time of the shooting? As it stands, the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" are as clear in import as, say, these ones:
(https://i.imgur.com/yHo7N1K.jpg)
As for the Agent Kelley and "in the building" points, they have already been addressed ad nauseam on this thread
Thumb1:
"Mr Baxter, we know from Agent Hosty's suppressed 11/22 interrogation report that Mr Oswald actually said he bought the Coke and went outside BEFORE Pres. Kennedy passed the building." Alan Ford
Please show the document where Oswald says he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
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"Mr Baxter, we know from Agent Hosty's suppressed 11/22 interrogation report that Mr Oswald actually said he bought the Coke and went outside BEFORE Pres. Kennedy passed the building." Alan Ford
Please show the document where Oswald says he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
JFK passed away before Oswald left the building
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So the lunchroom encounter was invented?
No---------------it was relocated
So essentially it was invented, because it never actually happened.
As for adding an extra minute or so, that wouldn't have been compatible with the (true) story of the officer's rush to get to the top of the building. He had been seen dashing into the building less than 30 seconds after the last shot---------------and DPD had boasted of his speed to all ears, so they couldn't walk that back. How on earth is it going to take him a further 2+ minutes to go up just one floor? Does he stop for a smoke?
Furthermore, a sighting of someone just one floor up in the building some 2+ minutes after the shooting is not a very secure way of protecting the all-important impression that he had been inside the building at the time of the shooting itself. It gives him too much time.
Furthermore #2 (and related to Furthermore #1), a ~90-sec timestamp is a lot more suggestive of an interrupted descent than a ~150-sec timestamp. Go beyond ~90 secs and folks will start wondering, 'Why didn't Oswald just go all the way down to the first floor?'.
Thumb1:
But it was a story. It was made up.
You can't say that it's totally acceptable to lie about the most significant aspect of the story (i.e. the location of the meeting) but then go on to say they couldn't possibly lie about the time it took to get to the second floor.
They could just have said that they encountered several other employees on the way up which they had to clear and that delayed them slightly.
And why would Oswald being on the second floor after 90 seconds appear to make him more guilty? Surely the natural instinct of a guilty person would in fact be to try and exit the building as soon as possible, not stop on the 2nd floor to casually have a sip of Coke? Why, if it was all just a story, did they not say they encountered him coming down the stairwell?
I just don't get all these claims about purposely making up stories to over up a conspiracy. Whoever the mastermind behind all this was was clearly the worst story maker in history leaving so many unaccounted and unanswerable gaps in the story.
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"Mr Baxter, we know from Agent Hosty's suppressed 11/22 interrogation report that Mr Oswald actually said he bought the Coke and went outside BEFORE Pres. Kennedy passed the building." Alan Ford
Please show the document where Oswald says he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
~Grin~
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
"He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch"
---------------------------> Mr O'Meara: Please show where Oswald says he got a coca cola
"returned to 1st floor to eat lunch"
---------------------------> Mr O'Meara: Please show where Oswald says he ate lunch
"Then went outside to watch P. Parade"
---------------------------> Mr O'Meara: Please show where Oswald says he watched P. Parade
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~Grin~
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
"He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch"
---------------------------> Mr O'Meara: Please show where Oswald says he got a coca cola
"returned to 1st floor to eat lunch"
---------------------------> Mr O'Meara: Please show where Oswald says he ate lunch
"Then went outside to watch P. Parade"
---------------------------> Mr O'Meara: Please show where Oswald says he watched P. Parade
Show the document where Oswald says he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
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So the lunchroom encounter was invented?
So essentially it was invented, because it never actually happened.
Mr Baxter, please don't ask a new question and then quote my answer to an older one as though I am answering your new one.
You asked me: "you're suggesting the meeting was totally made up?". And I responded to that question with: "No---------------it was relocated". Because there was a meeting between these three, only at the front door. Therefore the meeting was not totally made up, just its location (and therefore its timing).
But it was a story. It was made up.
You can't say that it's totally acceptable to lie about the most significant aspect of the story (i.e. the location of the meeting) but then go on to say they couldn't possibly lie about the time it took to get to the second floor.
Of course they could lie about the time it took to get to the second floor. But the lie needed to be someway realistic-sounding.
They could just have said that they encountered several other employees on the way up which they had to clear and that delayed them slightly.
Why would an officer who has rushed into the building in under 30 seconds in the belief that shots have just been fired from the top of that building have cause to clear anyone on the first floor? Makes no sense
And why would Oswald being on the second floor after 90 seconds appear to make him more guilty? Surely the natural instinct of a guilty person would in fact be to try and exit the building as soon as possible, not stop on the 2nd floor to casually have a sip of Coke? Why, if it was all just a story, did they not say they encountered him coming down the stairwell?
Which stairwell (i.e. between which floors)?
I just don't get all these claims about purposely making up stories to over up a conspiracy.
I don't get your confusion, Mr Baxter. They knew Mr Oswald had been at the front entrance for the encounter and they needed to relocate the encounter to somewhere less disastrous
Thumb1:
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Show the document where Oswald says he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
With pleasure, Mr O'Meara!
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
Thumb1:
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With pleasure, Mr O'Meara!
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
Thumb1:
Where does it state in this document Oswald went outside BEFORE JFK passed by?
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Where does it state in this document Oswald went outside BEFORE JFK passed by?
~Grin~
Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!
Do you accept that this document states that Mr Oswald said he got a coke on the second floor? Yes or no?
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
Thumb1:
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~Grin~
Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!
Do you accept that this document states that Mr Oswald said he got a coke on the second floor? Yes or no?
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
Thumb1:
Yes.
Where does it state Oswald went outside BEFORE JFK passed by?
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Friends, we can track the distortion machine doing its work on Mr Oswald's claims if we simply read in sequence the interrogation reports for that first interrogation session when Mr Oswald dropped his bombshell claim to have gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade.
A: Agent Hosty Draft Solo Report
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
This is a perfectly straightforward account, Mr Oswald claiming
-he visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke (pre-motorcade & hence no mention of an Officer/Truly encounter)
-he then went down to one to eat lunch (still pre-motorcade)
-he then went outside to watch P. Parade
B: Agents Hosty & Bookhout Joint Report
OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building.
This is a masterpiece of obfuscation. Two core elements are retained...
-visit to lunchroom (though still no Officer/Truly encounter!)
-eating lunch on first floor
...but the chronology is weirdly ill-defined. Indeed, one gets the impression that Mr Oswald may have meant that he visited the second-floor lunchroom deep into his lunch-eating session and not before it. It's all delightfully ambiguous.
Most crucially, Mr Oswald's all-important claim to have gone outside to watch P. Parade has been finessed down to "on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building". The lack of any specific location on the first floor tells us just how nervously the ALL-IMPORTANT issue has been fudged-------------------where exactly did the suspect say he was at the time of the shooting? This has the pleasing bonus effect of creating the nefarious impression that the suspect did not wish to be forthcoming on this score
C: Agent Bookhout Solo Report
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home.
This one is just priceless.
Again, two core elements are preserved...
-visit to lunchroom (now with Officer/Truly encounter included!)
-eating lunch on first floor
...but the time factor has been twisted beyond recognition. Not a word, even a ridiculously vague one, about where Mr Oswald says he was at the time Pres. Kennedy passed the building. That's just too hot to handle. Instead we have as our new, artificial starting-point "the time of the search of the Texas School Depository Building by Dallas police officers"! This enables the report's writer to put a confirmation in Mr Oswald's mouth of a second-floor lunchroom encounter shortly after the shooting. But in order to make that little fiction work, the report's writer must brazenly transmogrify "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" in the Hosty draft report into the bizarre scenario of going outside AFTER said lunchroom encounter involving a gun-toting cop and AFTER standing around a while eating lunch in the domino room!!
That's quite a journey from Agent Hosty's draft report to Agent Bookhout's solo one. No wonder the former had to be buried! But--------------thank goodness--------------it was finally unearthed in 2019, to the horror of Warren Gullibles and paid-up members of Team Keep LHO Away From Dem Steps everywhere!
Thumb1:
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Mr Baxter, please don't ask a new question and then quote my answer to an older one as though I am answering your new one.
You asked me: "you're suggesting the meeting was totally made up?". And I responded to that question with: "No---------------it was relocated". Because there was a meeting between these three, only at the front door. Therefore the meeting was not totally made up, just its location (and therefore its timing).
I apologise for this. I'm not quite sure what happened. The line 'So the lunchroom encounter was invented?' was the first line to my previous post which I was going to include for reference but then realised you probably didn't need it and thought I had deleted it. But I clearly didn't. It wasn't meant to be misleading and I've gone back to the original post and crossed it out, so again sorry about that.
However, I do still think that dismissing it as a mere changing of location is a gross understatement rather than calling it a complete fantasy, which is what it is. If it wasn't true, then it was a clear and intentional lie invented to mislead people. Like saying "Oh well it did happen, but just not in any way whatsoever as they claimed it did"
Of course they could lie about the time it took to get to the second floor. But the lie needed to be someway realistic-sounding.
Why would an officer who has rushed into the building in under 30 seconds in the belief that shots have just been fired from the top of that building have cause to clear anyone on the first floor? Makes no sense
Well, is this not the whole point of the encounter with Oswald on the second floor? Why did they stop to question who he was and clear him of any further suspicion if their sole purpose was just to run to the sixth floor?
Which stairwell (i.e. between which floors)?
Any stairwell. It's a fabricated story so it doesn't matter. They could have just said they encountered him going down the stairs just as they were reaching the 2nd floor, rather than saying they saw him in the lunchroom. It would have at least shown that Oswald was seen making his way downstairs, and presumably towards the exit, after the shooting and therefore raising suspicion and leaving no question as to why he was just sipping a Coke calmly in the lunchroom.
I don't get your confusion, Mr Baxter. They knew Mr Oswald had been at the front entrance for the encounter and they needed to relocate the encounter to somewhere less disastrous
Thumb1:
OK, I don't agree with your notion but I totally understand what you are saying and why you are claiming they did it. My confusion is why they would fabricate a story that can easily be left open to criticism and doubt? And that indeed has if numerous CT books and theories are to be accounted for. If you're going to lie, you might as well make something up that is at least foolproof
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Yes.
Thank you, Mr O'Meara! Thumb1:
So you accept that "He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch" means he went to 2nd floor and got coca cola to eat with lunch. Excellent!
You also (one therefore presumes) accept that "returned to 1st floor to eat lunch" means returned to 1st floor and ate lunch? Yes? Excellenter!
And yet here you are claiming that Agent Hosty uses the very same 'to' construction three times in a row, but the third time means something COMPLETELY different, i.e.:
"Then went went outside to watch P. Parade" means NOT then went outside and watched P. Parade BUT then went outside but as soon as he got out there got quite the surprise.....
This is, to say the least, an embarrassingly poor argument for you to be putting forward, Mr O'Meara. Deep down you must know that.
Or maybe I'm doing you an injustice? Maybe you are suggesting--------actually suggesting---------that Mr Oswald said he went outside and watched the NON-JFK parts of the P. Parade?! If that is the case, then embarrassing is not the word for it.............
(https://i.imgur.com/oZ646b9.jpg)
-
Friends, we can track the distortion machine doing its work on Mr Oswald's claims if we simply read in sequence the interrogation reports for that first interrogation session when Mr Oswald dropped his bombshell claim to have gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade.
A: Agent Hosty Draft Solo Report
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
This is a perfectly straightforward account, Mr Oswald claiming
-he visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke (pre-motorcade & hence no mention of an Officer/Truly encounter)
-he then went down to one to eat lunch (still pre-motorcade)
-he then went outside to watch P. Parade
B: Agents Hosty & Bookhout Joint Report
OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building.
This is a masterpiece of obfuscation. Two core elements are retained...
-visit to lunchroom (though still no Officer/Truly encounter!)
-eating lunch on first floor
...but the chronology is weirdly ill-defined. Indeed, one gets the impression that Mr Oswald may have meant that he visited the second-floor lunchroom deep into his lunch-eating session and not before it. It's all delightfully ambiguous.
Most crucially, Mr Oswald's all-important claim to have gone outside to watch P. Parade has been finessed down to "on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building". The lack of any specific location on the first floor tells us just how nervously the ALL-IMPORTANT issue has been fudged-------------------where exactly did the suspect say he was at the time of the shooting? This has the pleasing bonus effect of creating the nefarious impression that the suspect did not wish to be forthcoming on this score
C: Agent Bookhout Solo Report
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home.
This one is just priceless.
Again, two core elements are preserved...
-visit to lunchroom (now with Officer/Truly encounter included!)
-eating lunch on first floor
...but the time factor has been twisted beyond recognition. Not a word, even a ridiculously vague one, about where Mr Oswald says he was at the time Pres. Kennedy passed the building. That's just too hot to handle. Instead we have as our new, artificial starting-point "the time of the search of the Texas School Depository Building by Dallas police officers"! This enables the report's writer to put a confirmation in Mr Oswald's mouth of a second-floor lunchroom encounter shortly after the shooting. But in order to make that little fiction work, the report's writer must brazenly transmogrify "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" in the Hosty draft report into the bizarre scenario of going outside AFTER said lunchroom encounter involving a gun-toting cop and AFTER standing around a while eating lunch in the domino room!!
That's quite a journey from Agent Hosty's draft report to Agent Bookhout's solo one. No wonder the former had to be buried! But--------------thank goodness--------------it was finally unearthed in 2019, to the horror of Warren Gullibles and paid-up members of Team Keep LHO Away From Dem Steps everywhere!
Thumb1:
This is a perfectly straightforward account, Mr Oswald claiming
-he visited the second-floor lunchroom for a coke (pre-motorcade & hence no mention of an Officer/Truly encounter)
According to Fritz and Bookhout Lee said that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom eating his lunch when the motorcade passed by the TSBD....He then went to the second floor to purchase a coke .....
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Let me help you out Alan.
Because you are a Tinfoil Fantasist you are free to make any claim you wish free of Reason and Accountability.
When you claim Oswald said he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by, it's an invention of your fertile imagination. However, you don't believe your claims are subject to the same scrutiny as everyone else.
So, when I ask you to back up your claim (knowing you can't do it) with documentary evidence you provide a document that makes no mention about Oswald going outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
And you still believe you have somehow justified your claim!!
Kelly reports Oswald specifically stated he never saw the parade but because it upsets your fantasy it's a lie.
Oswald confirms, on camera, he was in the building (TSBD) at the time of the shooting but this upsets your fantasy, so you come up with the most embarrassing argument ever to grace the annals of assassination research history - the "outside" is "inside" argument.
Oswald doesn't say he went outside BEFORE JFK passes by.
Have the backbone to acknowledge this for the BS: it is.
PS: Oswald's claims that he went outside to watch the parade but didn't see it are not mutually exclusive claims.
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I apologise for this. I'm not quite sure what happened. The line 'So the lunchroom encounter was invented?' was the first line to my previous post which I was going to include for reference but then realised you probably didn't need it and thought I had deleted it. But I clearly didn't. It wasn't meant to be misleading and I've gone back to the original post and crossed it out, so again sorry about that.
No biggie, Mr Baxter, and thank you
However, I do still think that dismissing it as a mere changing of location is a gross understatement rather than calling it a complete lie, which is what it is. If it wasn't true, then it was a clear and intentional lie invented to mislead people.
Oh I quite agree-------to change the location, and therefore the timing, of this encounter was an outrageous lie of monumental proportions
Well, is this not the whole point of the encounter with Oswald on the second floor? Why did they stop to question who he was and clear him of any further suspicion if their sole purpose was just to run to the sixth floor?
Good question! Officer Baker's lunchroom story never made sense. But it was the best (i.e. least worst) that could be put together under extreme time- and political-pressure
Any stairwell. It's a fabricated story so it doesn't matter.
Oh but it matters very much indeed.
Remember: if they know that Mr Oswald was out front for the shooting, then they know that there is every risk that visual proof and/or witnesses may emerge at some point to prove his presence there. This means that the new, fictional location for the encounter has to be somewhere that Mr Oswald could physically and halfway plausibly have gone to from the front entrance immediately after the shooting. Otherwise Officer Baker and Mr Truly (and others besides) risk exposure as rank perjurers. Due to the layout of the building, and of the second floor in particular, the lunchroom is the least worst (actually the only) option
They could have just said they encountered him going down the stairs just as they were reaching the 2nd floor, rather than saying they saw him in the lunchroom. It would have at least shown that Oswald was seen making his way downstairs, and presumably towards the exit, after the shooting and therefore raising suspicion and leaving no question as to why he was just sipping a Coke calmly in the lunchroom.
Again, the fictional encounter HAS to work both ways: an assassin who has descended OR (if it comes to it) a man who has just left the front entrance and come upstairs
OK, I don't agree with your notion but I totally understand what you are saying and why you are claiming they did it. My confusion is why they would fabricate a story that can easily be left open to criticism and doubt? And that indeed has if numerous CT books and theories are to be accounted for. If you're going to lie, you might as well make something up that is at least foolproof
They knew Mr Oswald wasn't the shooter, and their options were excruciatingly limited. The lunchroom was lousy, but it was their only option if they were to keep alive the notion of Mr Oswald's guilt as the sixth-floor shooter
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Let me help you out Alan.
Because you are a Tinfoil Fantasist you are free to make any claim you wish free of Reason and Accountability.
When you claim Oswald said he went outside BEFORE JFK passed by, it's an invention of your fertile imagination. However, you don't believe your claims are subject to the same scrutiny as everyone else.
Thanks for the tetchy waffle, Mr O'Meara! Thumb1:
So, when I ask you to back up your claim (knowing you can't do it) with documentary evidence you provide a document that makes no mention about Oswald going outside BEFORE JFK passed by.
Because President Kennedy is an inessential optional extra in the Presidential Parade, right? :D
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Hosty's book was published in 2011 and he just wanted to tell his side of the story and Hosty's main motivation was he believed he was a scapegoat and let's get real if Hosty had explosive evidence that Oswald was outside during the assassination then he would have put it in his book but as we know Hosty just told the truth. And so long after the assassination we can't use the cop out excuse and keep saying he was still being "supressed" . Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTs4DZVW/Hosty-assignment-Osw-ald-3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz79Hq39/Hosty-assignment-Osw-ald.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3kBVDCh/Hosty-assignment-Osw-ald-2.jpg)
https://www.scribd.com/read/463988612/Assignment-Oswald#
And the most powerful evidence of them all, is Oswald from his own lips agreeing to being in the building at the time. And if you want a laugh you just gotta hear the behind the scenes explanation given by Ford, where Fritz and Oswald struck a deal or something? Hilarious.
Question. Were you in the building at the time.
Oswald. Naturally if I work in that building.
@1:20
Btw if the Hosty note was saying what Ford wants us to believe, they wouldn't just supress a piece of paper, they would burn/flush the piece of paper.
I can just imagine the conversation;
Conspirator 1: Well Hosty wrote this note busting open this whole investigation
Conspirator 2: Ok I know, but don't destroy it, and we will keep it for safe keeping just so at a later date which could even be tomorrow we will be completely exposed as conspiring to kill the President.
JohnM
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According to Fritz and Bookhout Lee said that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom eating his lunch when the motorcade passed by the TSBD....He then went to the second floor to purchase a coke .....
Captain Fritz and Agent Bookhout lied, duh!
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Hosty's book was published in 2011 and he just wanted to tell his side of the story and Hosty's main motivation was he believed he was a scapegoat and let's get real if Hosty had explosive evidence that Oswald was outside during the assassination then he would have put it in his book
He put it in his same-day interrogation report, Mr Mytton. Don't cry!
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And the most powerful evidence of them all, is Oswald from his own lips agreeing to being in the building at the time. And if you want a laugh you just gotta hear the behind the scenes explanation given by Ford, where Fritz and Oswald struck a deal or something?
:D
Mr Alan Ford: Captain Fritz manipulated Mr Oswald into believing he was not on the hook as the actual shooter
Mr John Mytton: Ford claims Fritz and Oswald struck a deal or something
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:D
Mr Alan Ford: Captain Fritz manipulated Mr Oswald into believing he was not on the hook as the actual shooter
WTF? And that made Oswald agree to being in the building at the time? Hilarious!
JohnM
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He put it in his same-day interrogation report, Mr Mytton. Don't cry!
Alan,
Hosty did not put in his same-day interrogation report that Oswald was outside during the assassination.
I know you really believe that he did but he didn't.
It didn't happen. ::)
But on a lighter note...
it is your contention that Oswald can be seen in the Darnell footage as Baker approaches the TSBD steps.
Please regale us with your account of how the first floor encounter between Baker and Oswald took place given Baker is only seconds from reaching the position you believe Oswald was standing.
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WTF? And that made Oswald agree to being in the building at the time? Hilarious!
JohnM
Your 'WTF?' is a nice touch, Mr Mytton-----------as though you didn't know full well you were distorting my claim beyond recognition! I invite those reading to check out our previous exchanges on this very point: doing so will give you a neat insight into how Mr Mytton operates here.
Now! On the substantive point:
Yes, in his v. brief exchange with the reporter Mr Oswald confirms that he was not some place other than the Texas School Book Depository at the time. Neither he, nor anyone else who had come out onto those steps for the P. Parade, had left the building-------------the front entranceway was part of the building. Therefore they, and he, were still technically in the building
By the way, Mr Mytton, it's good to see you've stopped putting the word "inside" in Mr Oswald's mouth! Thumb1:
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Alan,
Hosty did not put in his same-day interrogation report that Oswald was outside during the assassination.
I know you really believe that he did but he didn't.
It didn't happen. ::)
~Grin~ Keep telling yourself that, Mr O'Meara, and don't prey on the fact that your contorted reading of the Hosty draft report has been torn to shreds in the foregoing few posts Thumb1:
But on a lighter note...
it is your contention that Oswald can be seen in the Darnell footage as Baker approaches the TSBD steps.
Please regale us with your account of how the first floor encounter between Baker and Oswald took place given Baker is only seconds from reaching the position you believe Oswald was standing.
Happy to!
Officer Baker runs up the steps on the less crowded west side and asks for directions to the stairs
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Yes, in his v. brief exchange with the reporter Mr Oswald confirms that he was not some place other than the Texas School Book Depository at the time. Neither he, nor anyone else who had come out onto those steps for the P. Parade, had left the building-------------the front entranceway was part of the building. Therefore they, and he, were still technically in the building
Here we go again with your absurd notion that the outside steps were somehow inside the building?
The outside steps as described by his workmates were outside and to say otherwise is just self serving nonsense.
And let's not forget Oswald was trying to convince the World that he didn't shoot the President so saying emphatically that he was OUTSIDE would be a complete no brainer but instead you believe Oswald would give a cryptic answer to a straightforward question? Unbelievable!
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by
Sarah Stanton who was on the steps described to the FBI that after hearing the shots "immediately went into the building".
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wcd_0089a-FBI-REPORT-November-23-1963..jpg?w=778)
JohnM
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Your 'WTF?' is a nice touch, Mr Mytton-----------as though you didn't know full well you were distorting my claim beyond recognition! I invite those reading to check out our previous exchanges on this very point: doing so will give you a neat insight into how Mr Mytton operates here.
Now! On the substantive point:
Yes, in his v. brief exchange with the reporter Mr Oswald confirms that he was not some place other than the Texas School Book Depository at the time. Neither he, nor anyone else who had come out onto those steps for the P. Parade, had left the building-------------the front entranceway was part of the building. Therefore they, and he, were still technically in the building
By the way, Mr Mytton, it's good to see you've stopped putting the word "inside" in Mr Oswald's mouth! Thumb1:
"-the front entranceway was part of the building. Therefore they, and he, were still technically in the building"
:D :D :D
Not the old "outside" is "inside" routine. Unbelievable.
Just to savour the full lunacy of your position - when Oswald confirms he was in the building on camera he was really on the steps and when Oswald is reported as saying he went outside to watch the P parade he's still on the steps!!
Is that the sound of metallic headgear being adjusted I hear?
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Oh but it matters very much indeed.
Remember: if they know that Mr Oswald was out front for the shooting, then they know that there is every risk that visual proof and/or witnesses may emerge at some point to prove his presence there. This means that the new, fictional location for the encounter has to be somewhere that Mr Oswald could physically and halfway plausibly have gone to from the front entrance immediately after the shooting. Otherwise Officer Baker and Mr Truly (and others besides) risk exposure as rank perjurers. Due to the layout of the building, and of the second floor in particular, the lunchroom is the least worst (actually the only) option
This is daft. So you're basically saying that they were worried about the possibility of visual proof or witnesses emerging which could prove Oswald was out front at the time of the shooting?
Rather than just concern about Baker and Truly being exposed as perjurers, what would it have meant on the grand overall scale of things if such evidence had emerged? Would they have just dismissed the whole Oswald as the shootist theory and said "Oh, well it was plausible that he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom so it at least it means Baker and Truly won't get charged for perjury"?
If they'd gone to all the trouble of setting Oswald up as a patsy then surely making sure that visual evidence or human witnesses claiming he was elsewhere at the exact time of the shooting would have been taken care of?
Again, the fictional encounter HAS to work both ways: an assassin who has descended OR (if it comes to it) a man who has just left the front entrance and come upstairs
But surely there's no significant time difference between someone who has gone upstairs, got a Coke and stood around in the lunchroom before being seen and someone who has gone upstairs, got a Coke and then started to make his way back downstairs again. In both versions the same man is still basically on the 2nd floor just in different locations.
They knew Mr Oswald wasn't the shooter, and their options were excruciatingly limited. The lunchroom was lousy, but it was their only option if they were to keep alive the notion of Mr Oswald's guilt as the sixth-floor shooter
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Another thing that doesn't make sense about this theory; what was Truly's role in all this and why would he have been so eager to go along with the story of Oswald being in the 2nd floor lunchroom if it was completely fabricated? What was in it for him?
If he could so easily have been forced to lie then surely anyone claiming they saw Oswald outside could have been made to lie also...or maybe they were?
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Here we go again with your absurd notion that the outside steps were somehow inside the building?
Ah, and so a cornered Mr Mytton tries to slip in the word "inside" again. Old dog, old tricks! :D
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"-the front entranceway was part of the building. Therefore they, and he, were still technically in the building"
:D :D :D
Not the old "outside" is "inside" routine. Unbelievable.
Just to savour the full lunacy of your position - when Oswald confirms he was in the building on camera he was really on the steps and when Oswald is reported as saying he went outside to watch the P parade he's still on the steps!!
Is that the sound of metallic headgear being adjusted I hear?
You're still smarting from the ignominious whupping you received over the Hosty report, Mr O'Meara. I'll give you a day to calm down! Thumb1:
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Just to savour the full lunacy of your position - when Oswald confirms he was in the building on camera he was really on the steps and when Oswald is reported as saying he went outside to watch the P parade he's still on the steps!!
Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
Nice pick-up Dan, you have completely annihilated Ford's interpretation of Hosty's note and at the same time decimated his inside/outside garbage! Thumb1:
There's no coming back from this! Thumb1:
JohnM
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~Grin~ Keep telling yourself that, Mr O'Meara, and don't prey on the fact that your contorted reading of the Hosty draft report has been torn to shreds in the foregoing few posts Thumb1:
Happy to!
Officer Baker runs up the steps on the less crowded west side and asks for directions to the stairs
"Officer Baker runs up the steps on the less crowded west side and asks for directions to the stairs"
So you think the completely innocuous encounter you describe here was converted into Baker's gun-toting confrontation with Oswald that Truly had to break up and then it was relocated to the 2nd floor lunchroom??
Get a grip man.
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You're still smarting from the ignominious whupping you received over the Hosty report, Mr O'Meara. I'll give you a day to calm down! Thumb1:
:D :D :D
I think your unicorn needs watering ;)
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This is daft. So you're basically saying that they were worried about the possibility of visual proof or witnesses emerging which could prove Oswald was out front at the time of the shooting?
Rather than just concern about Baker and Truly being exposed as perjurers, what would it have meant on the grand overall scale of things if such evidence had emerged? Would they have just dismissed the whole Oswald as the shootist theory and said "Oh, well it was plausible that he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom so it at least it means Baker and Truly won't get charged for perjury"?
Ah, but they had to persuade Officer Baker to sign up to the lie. Without that the lie collapses. The evidence is it took him a long time to come on board. His same-day affidavit is an honest account of what went down
If they'd gone to all the trouble of setting Oswald up as a patsy then surely making sure that visual evidence or human witnesses claiming he was elsewhere at the exact time of the shooting would have been taken care of?
This was not Stalin's Russia--------------every chance something might emerge into the public domain that could not be caught in time and controlled
But surely there's no significant time difference between someone who has gone upstairs, got a Coke and stood around in the lunchroom before being seen and someone who has gone upstairs, got a Coke and then started to make his way back downstairs again. In both versions the same man is still basically on the 2nd floor just in different locations.
It adds crucial time for the Coke to be bought from the machine. Remember, Officer Baker and Mr Truly have rushed into the building and are rushing up the first flight of stairs. They find Oswald on the stairway with a Coke in his hand. That's hardly suggestive of a fleeing assassin, is it?
Another thing that doesn't make sense about this theory; what was Truly's role in all this and why would he have been so eager to go along with the story of Oswald being in the 2nd floor lunchroom if it was completely fabricated? What was in it for him?
We don't know, but his clearing as an 'employee' of a man who was caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up just after the shooting raises every suspicion that he was up to his eyeballs in this thing.
If he could so easily have been forced to lie then surely anyone claiming they saw Oswald outside could have been made to lie also...or maybe they were?
I believe Officer Baker was forced to lie. I doubt much pressure needed to be exerted on Mr Truly
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"Officer Baker runs up the steps on the less crowded west side and asks for directions to the stairs"
So you think the completely innocuous encounter you describe here was converted into Baker's gun-toting confrontation with Oswald that Truly had to break up and then it was relocated to the 2nd floor lunchroom??
It's because it was innocuous, and because it proved Mr Oswald was not the shooter, that it had to be thus converted.
Get a grip man.
Let me know when you have a substantive rebuttal to offer, Mr O'Meara. Perhaps take some time to calm down first and nurse your bruises! Thumb1:
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:D :D :D
I think your unicorn needs watering ;)
Again, let us know when you feel ready to offer meaningful rebuttal. Right now you're just making a fool of yourself :(
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Ah, but they had to persuade Officer Baker to sign up to the lie. Without that the lie collapses. The evidence is it took him a long time to come on board. His same-day affidavit is an honest account of what went down
The sheer panic and chaos of that day could so easily have caused confusion and could easily have explained any inconsistencies in Officer Baker's same-day affidavit though. Surely a little "Now I've had time to calm down and think properly, I've realised what I've said might have been wrong..." would be more plausible than creating an entire false story?
This was not Stalin's Russia--------------every chance something might emerge into the public domain that could not be caught in time and controlled
But my point was what would have happened to whole Oswald was the lone shooter plan if such evidence proving he was outside at the time of the shooting did emerge? It's all very well saying they needed to cover their tracks in this situation and say they saw him somewhere where he could easily have gotten to after the shooting, but the entire plan of framing Oswald would have been made redundant if such evidence came to light. The fact that Baker and Truly would have been exposed as telling porkies would have been the least of their worries. It would have put an end to all the work that had gone into framing Oswald.
It adds crucial time for the Coke to be bought from the machine. Remember, Officer Baker and Mr Truly have rushed into the building and are rushing up the first flight of stairs. They find Oswald on the stairway with a Coke in his hand. That's hardly suggestive of a fleeing assassin, is it?
Surely we're only talking about seconds though. I can't imagine it raising any more doubts or fuel for CTers than the already existing explanation that he made it down from the sixth floor and apparently appeared not out of breath in the slightest. And they could have just ignored the bit about him having a Coke if need be, it was a totally made up story after all.
We don't know, but his clearing as an 'employee' of a man who was caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up just after the shooting raises every suspicion that he was up to his eyeballs in this thing.
I believe Officer Baker was forced to lie. I doubt much pressure needed to be exerted on Mr Truly
Was there also a female employee who witnessed Oswald on the 2nd floor after the shooting, or am I getting totally mixed up with some thing else? I may be wrong on this and don't have the means to check up on it at this exact moment
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Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.
This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.
Here Baker says he took 90 sec to 120 sec, & that tests showed 90 sec.
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No, Ms Adams brings them up in her testimony
Translated: you have zero ability to neutralize the issue raised by Ms Adams' mention of Mr Molina and Ms Davis.
Ms Adams saw both Mr Molina and Ms Davis in front of the building. If you were familiar with Mr Molina and Ms Davis' accounts of their actions post-shooting, you would know that Ms Adams' mention of them blows your silly 'She left the 4th floor at 12:35' timeline out of the water.
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Typical, just make things up. You brought them up you explain them.
You were asked to explain. Obviously you can't. Davis and Molina prove she left later than she thought. All time stamps indicate she left at approximately 12:35.
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Nope. The fact that you, Mr Nessan, can't cope with new evidence doesn't mean the new evidence goes away.
Since 2019, thanks to the unearthing of Mr Hosty's original interrogation report----------------
(https://i.imgur.com/BbjrRa7.jpg)
----------------we know exactly what Mr Oswald actually claimed:
1. He broke for lunch around noon
2. He bought a coke in the second-floor lunchroom
3. He returned to the first floor to eat lunch
4. As soon as he heard the excitement out front he went outside to catch the Presidential parade
Mr Holmes is compressing time, is all. His account of a front entrance encounter with cop & Mr Truly chimes uncannily with what DPD were saying 11/22/63 and what Mr Billy Lovelady told Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination. This is very bad news for robotic Warren Gullibles like you!
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LHO told how many different stories on the same subject. LHO admitted to the press he never went outside. Kind of ends the Hosty notes.
WHatever you do don't let reality get in your way.
Hosty was suspended by the FBI for incompetence. It is not surprising you would gravitate to him as a witness.
There are aspects of Inspector Holmes's notes that weren't known for months. LHO had to explain Givens return to the 6th floor.
USPS Inspector Holmes:
HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
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Again, let us know when you feel ready to offer meaningful rebuttal. Right now you're just making a fool of yourself :(
I'm sure that you've seen this clip, Mr Ford. Baker says nothing about encountering anybody prior to encountering Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom. And... Lee Oswald himself verified that a DPD officer had in fact burst into the second floor lunchroom just after he had got a Coca Cola from the vending machine. if Baker had in fact stopped to question a man in the entrance to the TSBD he could not have reached the second floor in 90 seconds after the first shot was fired.
I'm no expert at detecting when a person is lying, but I believe Baker tells several lies as he is being interviewed.
Did Baker say----That it took him a minute and a half to two minutes to reach the SEVENTH floor?? If that's a good estimate as Roy Truly seems to verify....then Baker would have reached the 2nd floor lunch room in about one minute....
And as the WC investigators discovered ....Lee Oswald could not have traveled from the SE corner window to the 2nd floor lunchroom in less than a minute and a half.
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The sheer panic and chaos of that day could so easily have caused confusion and could easily have explained any inconsistencies in Officer Baker's same-day affidavit though. Surely a little "Now I've had time to calm down and think properly, I've realised what I've said might have been wrong..." would be more plausible than creating an entire false story?
No, Officer Baker simply tells the story of a different encounter in his affidavit.
As Officer Baker was giving the affidavit, Mr Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office in plain view of him. And yet Officer Baker's affidavit makes absolutely no linkage between the suspicious light-brown-jacket-wearing man he caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up and the man now in custody. That's because he did NOT recognize Mr Oswald as the man he'd caught walking away from the rear stairway.
But my point was what would have happened to whole Oswald was the lone shooter plan if such evidence proving he was outside at the time of the shooting did emerge? It's all very well saying they needed to cover their tracks in this situation and say they saw him somewhere where he could easily have gotten to after the shooting, but the entire plan of framing Oswald would have been made redundant if such evidence came to light. The fact that Baker and Truly would have been exposed as telling porkies would have been the least of their worries. It would have put an end to all the work that had gone into framing Oswald.
Indeed. But the immediate and present emergency is to bring Officer Baker on board the story
Surely we're only talking about seconds though. I can't imagine it raising any more doubts or fuel for CTers than the already existing explanation that he made it down from the sixth floor and apparently appeared not out of breath in the slightest. And they could have just ignored the bit about him having a Coke if need be, it was a totally made up story after all.
If proof emerges that Mr Oswald was at the front entrance at the time of the shooting and/or when Officer Baker ran up those front steps, then a story of Mr Oswald hurrying inside, up a flight of front stairs, across the second floor and then back down a flight of rear stairs for no discernible reason is going to be..... a hard sell.
It may furthermore be that Officer Baker had already told plenty of folks about seeing Mr Oswald holding/sipping a Coke (i.e. at the front entrance) and so the Coke element had to be retained. The earliest versions of the lunchroom story put out had Mr Oswald first seen STATIONARY in the lunchroom. When it was realized that Officer Baker had to have had some reason to check out the lunchroom, Mr Oswald was gotten MOVING
Was there also a female employee who witnessed Oswald on the 2nd floor after the shooting, or am I getting totally mixed up with some thing else? I may be wrong on this and don't have the means to check up on it at this exact moment
That was the claim of Ms Reid, Mr Truly's clerical supervisor
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Here Baker says he took 90 sec to 120 sec, & that tests showed 90 sec.
Yes, he's on script here
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Davis and Molina prove she left later than she thought.
How so, Mr Nessan?
This should be fun............
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LHO admitted to the press he never went outside.
No he didn't. That's just your Warren Gullible interpretation of the exchange with the reporter! Thumb1:
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I'm sure that you've seen this clip, Mr Ford. Baker says nothing about encountering anybody prior to encountering Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom.
Yes, he's on script here
And... Lee Oswald himself verified that a DPD officer had in fact burst into the second floor lunchroom just after he had got a Coca Cola from the vending machine.
Only if you fail to compare the Bookhout solo report with the earlier Bookhout/Hosty joint report and the even earlier, suppressed Hosty draft report.
My advice would be not to fail to compare the Bookhout solo report with the earlier Bookhout/Hosty joint report and the even earlier, suppressed Hosty draft report.
See Reply #346 on this thread! Thumb1:
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No, Officer Baker simply tells the story of a different encounter in his affidavit.
Really?
And who was this encounter with?
As Officer Baker was giving the affidavit, Mr Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office in plain view of him. And yet Officer Baker's affidavit makes absolutely no linkage between the suspicious light-brown-jacket-wearing man he caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up and the man now in custody. That's because he did NOT recognize Mr Oswald as the man he'd caught walking away from the rear stairway.
Marvin Johnson, the man who took Baker's statement, is clear that Baker recognised Oswald as soon as he saw him.
If proof emerges that Mr Oswald was at the front entrance at the time of the shooting and/or when Officer Baker ran up those front steps, then a story of Mr Oswald hurrying inside, up a flight of front stairs, across the second floor and then back down a flight of rear stairs for no discernible reason is going to be..... a hard sell.
"If proof emerges that Mr Oswald was at the front entrance at the time of the shooting"
It's refreshing to hear a Prayer Man fanatic admit there is currently no proof that Oswald was on the front steps at the time of the shooting. Thumb1:
PS: It's not going to happen
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Givens says he went down in the elevator at 1 or 2 minutes after 12:00, & that Givens forgot to close the gate, & that LHO (holding LHO's order board)(on the 6th floor) had asked him to shut the gate.
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Really?
And who was this encounter with?
A man other than Mr Oswald, and not a Depository employee. On Mr Truly's word, Officer Baker let a member of the assassination team go.
Marvin Johnson, the man who took Baker's statement, is clear that Baker recognised Oswald as soon as he saw him.
And yet the affidavit statement does not even mention this absolutely crucial fact (which would have been golden from a DPD perspective). If you weren't a 95% Warren Gullible, what would you make of this amazing circumstance, Mr O'Meara?
Det. Johnson is also clear that Officer Baker said he started to search this man. Do you therefore think it's clear that Officer Baker started to search the man (contrary to his WC testimony)?
"If proof emerges that Mr Oswald was at the front entrance at the time of the shooting"
It's refreshing to hear a Prayer Man fanatic admit there is currently no proof that Oswald was on the front steps at the time of the shooting.
~Grin~
You have misunderstood my use of the present tense, Mr O'Meara
PS: It's not going to happen
'I really really really don't want Oswald to have been on the front steps for the P. Parade' is not an argument, Mr O'Meara, just an expression of irrational (actually froth-at-the-mouth) bias.
By the way, have you come up with an explanation for this shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film yet?
(https://i.imgur.com/oA4bKD6.jpg)
Even a 95% explanation would help here, Mr O'Meara. Actually no, strike that-----------a 5% explanation would be a start, and certainly 5% more than you've given us before!
Thumb1:
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A man other than Mr Oswald, and not a Depository employee. On Mr Truly's word, Officer Baker let a member of the assassination team go.
The assassination team?? :D :D
And yet the affidavit statement does not even mention this absolutely crucial fact (which would have been golden from a DPD perspective). If you weren't a 95% Warren Gullible, what would you make of this amazing circumstance, Mr O'Meara?
Det. Johnson is also clear that Officer Baker said he started to search this man. Do you therefore think it's clear that Officer Baker started to search the man (contrary to his WC testimony)?
Stay on track Alan.
You were saying Baker didn't recognise Oswald.
This is just a product of your fantastical imagination.
I provide independent documented corroboration that Baker did recognise Oswald. So you try to change the subject
You have misunderstood my use of the present tense, Mr O'Meara
I don't think so.
You are admitting there is no proof that Oswald was on the steps at the time of the shooting.
And I appreciate your honesty. Thumb1:
'I really really really don't want Oswald to have been on the front steps for the P. Parade' is not an argument, Mr O'Meara, just an expression of irrational (actually froth-at-the-mouth) bias.
:D But you think "I really, really, really do want Oswald to be on the steps" is a perfectly reasonable argument don't you Alan
By the way, have you come up with an explanation for this shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film yet?
(https://i.imgur.com/oA4bKD6.jpg)
Even a 95% explanation would help here, Mr O'Meara. Actually no, strike that-----------a 5% explanation would be a start, and certainly 5% more than you've given us before!
Thumb1:
Stay on track Alan.
Thumb1:
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The assassination team?? :D :D
The 95% Warren Gullible knows the assassination was the work of one man
Stay on track Alan.
You were saying Baker didn't recognise Oswald.
This is just a product of your fantastical imagination.
Says the 95% Warren Gullible whose heart is broken by the fact that Officer Baker's affidavit omits to note that the man caught walking away from the rear stairway is none other than the man just now brought into the Homicide Bureau in handcuffs
I provide independent documented corroboration that Baker did recognise Oswald. So you try to change the subject
A DPD cop provides after-the-fact corroboration for a DPD cop. Good enough for a 95% Warren Gullible
I don't think so.
You are admitting there is no proof that Oswald was on the steps at the time of the shooting.
And I appreciate your honesty. Thumb1:
The 95% Warren Gullible needs to work on his reading skills
:D But you think "I really, really, really do want Oswald to be on the steps" is a perfectly reasonable argument don't you Alan
No, it would be as silly a starting point for research as a 95% Warren Gullible's "I really really really don't want Oswald to have been on the front steps for the P. Parade"
Still no luck on the Lovelady shadow, Mr O'Meara? Well, color me 100% unsurprised!
Thumb1:
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The 95% Warren Gullible knows the assassination was the work of one man
And Fantasia Ford knows it was an assassination team vouched for by Truly.
Says the 95% Warren Gullible whose heart is broken by the fact that Officer Baker's affidavit omits to note that the man caught walking away from the rear stairway is none other than the man just now brought into the Homicide Bureau in handcuffs
Fantasia Ford makes up a story about Baker not recognising Oswald and is corrected by actual evidence and can't take it. :'(
A DPD cop provides after-the-fact corroboration for a DPD cop. Good enough for a 95% Warren Gullible
:D :D :D
Only Fantasia Ford would require before-the-fact corroboration.
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Givens says he went down in the elevator at 1 or 2 minutes after 12:00, & that Givens forgot to close the gate, & that LHO (holding LHO's order board)(on the 6th floor) had asked him to shut the gate.
Study more thoroughly the inconceivable Charles Givens yarn------
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg52976.html#msg52976
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Study more thoroughly the inconceivable Charles Givens yarn------
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg52976.html#msg52976
Givens' only contradiction is re seeing LHO in the Domino Room at about 11:50. Early on Givens says he did see LHO in the DR, later Givens says that he did not see LHO in the DR.
Williams heard 2 shots from above him -- which confirms my theory that LHO fired 2 shots.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=335
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Givens' only contradiction is re seeing LHO in the Domino Room at about 11:50. Early on Givens says he did see LHO in the DR, later Givens says that he did not see LHO in the DR.
Givens lied about seeing Oswald on the 6th floor.
Williams stated that he did go up to the 6th floor and saw no one. If one reads Givens' FBI report...he told them that he was on the 1st floor about 11:40 and then went outside. There are several other contradictions if one would bother to read the thread and it's links.
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No sign of Baker according to Molina, destroys any hope of Baker/Truly making it to the lunchroom in 90 seconds.....
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
BTW, Calvary arrived after Truly.....
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Just because Joe Molina didn't see Baker go into the building doesn't mean anything. Molina could've been engaged in conversation with someone when Baker came up the steps.
There is actual film footage of Baker approaching the bottom of the steps.
Other witnesses do see Baker enter.
The only reason Truly goes back into the TSBD is to assist Baker.
It's safe to say Baker was already in the lobby asking people where the stairs were when Truly came up the steps.
Molina's statement only confirms the speed that Baker makes it to the lobby (20-30 seconds, something confirmed by the Darnell film)
BTW
Calvary was stood at the bottom of the steps when Truly ran up them.
She was telling Lovelady what had happened.
When she entered the building Molina had moved into the lobby.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqpVccGY/BAKER1.gif)
JohnM
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Just because Joe Molina didn't see Baker go into the building doesn't mean anything.
Of couse not -- LOL
Molina could've been engaged in conversation with someone when Baker came up the steps.
Sure, but Molina was right at the doors when Truly entered seconds later.
There is actual film footage of Baker approaching the bottom of the steps.
"approaching" -- LOL
Other witnesses do see Baker enter.
Names?
The only reason Truly goes back into the TSBD is to assist Baker.
First you need to show he actually was inside.
It's safe to say Baker was already in the lobby asking people where the stairs were when Truly came up the steps.
No, it's safe to say you made that up. Who were "people " in the lobby 15 seconds after shots?
Molina's statement only confirms the speed that Baker makes it to the lobby (20-30 seconds, something confirmed by the Darnell film)
No, you also made that up to fit your fantacy.
BTW
Calvary was stood at the bottom of the steps when Truly ran up them.
Oh, you have Calvary timed?
She was telling Lovelady what had happened.
OK, when did Lovelady say Baker/Truly entered?
When she entered the building Molina had moved into the lobby.
Right.
The usual sh*t but I'll make the points that need making.
"She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building"
FBI interview of Pauline Sanders
Sanders was also stood on the steps.
You should know all this but you don't.
It's the basics.
The Darnell film shows Baker approaching the steps of the TSBD.
All you could say to that was "approaching" -- LOL
But it does.
What do you have to say about that?
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The usual sh*t but I'll make the points that need making.
"She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building"
FBI interview of Pauline Sanders
Sanders was also stood on the steps.
You should know all this but you don't.
It's the basics.
The Darnell film shows Baker approaching the steps of the TSBD.
All you could say to that was "approaching" -- LOL
But it does.
What do you have to say about that?
"She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building"
I know that she didn't have a stop watch..... But TEN SECONDS????
Baker was on his motorcycle on Houston street near the intersection of Houston and Main at the time of the first shot....The shots cover a time span of about 6 seconds ..... so Baker would have had to have traveled about a block and jumped off his bike and ran into the TSBD in about 16 seconds from the sound of the first shot..... I don't believe it!
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"She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building"
I know that she didn't have a stop watch..... But TEN SECONDS????
Baker was on his motorcycle on Houston street near the intersection of Houston and Main at the time of the first shot....The shots cover a time span of about 6 seconds ..... so Baker would have had to have traveled about a block and jumped off his bike and ran into the TSBD in about 16 seconds from the sound of the first shot..... I don't believe it!
It's a guess.
She's emphasising the speed he arrived.
As you point out, she didn't have a stopwatch
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It's a guess.
She's emphasising the speed he arrived.
As you point out, she didn't have a stopwatch
I'm not looking for an argument..... But what would you calculate as a reasonable time span?
Perhaps 30 seconds from the sound of the first shot?
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I'm not looking for an argument..... But what would you calculate as a reasonable time span?
Perhaps 30 seconds from the sound of the first shot?
That seems reasonable
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And Fantasia Ford knows it was an assassination team vouched for by Truly.
And who does Mr O'Meara think was the man Officer Baker caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up?
Fantasia Ford makes up a story about Baker not recognising Oswald and is corrected by actual evidence and can't take it.
~Grin~
The actual evidence----------Officer Baker's same-day affidavit, during the writing of which Mr Oswald was brought in in front of Officer Baker---------tells us that Officer Baker did not make any firm connection between the man caught walking away from the rear stairway and the suspect just brought in.
The fact that Officer Baker was not brought to a lineup only makes things worse for your silly claim! Thumb1:
Only Fantasia Ford would require before-the-fact corroboration.
No, during-the-fact corroboration would do the trick-----------------if Officer Baker confidently identified the suspect just brought in as the man he caught walking away from the rear stairway, Det. Johnson would have made sure this all-important fact made it into the affidavit. At the very, very least, Officer Baker would have been brought to a lineup. None of this happened
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No sign of Baker according to Molina, destroys any hope of Baker/Truly making it to the lunchroom in 90 seconds.....
What destroys any hope of their making it to the lunchroom is Officer Baker's same-day affidavit
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BTW
Calvary was stood at the bottom of the steps when Truly ran up them.
She was telling Lovelady what had happened.
Correct! Thumb1:
So Mr Lovelady lied to the WC about where he was when he saw Officer Baker and Mr Truly heading for the front door.
And Mr Shelley told one story involving Ms Calvary in his same-day affidavit, a very different one to the WC.
The question is-------------------why?
When she entered the building Molina had moved into the lobby.
Only after he left the front of the building, went west and reentered by the side door. (Read his HSCA interview!)
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How so, Mr Nessan?
This should be fun............
Bumped for Mr Nessan, who made the hilariously ill-informed claim that "Davis and Molina prove she (i.e. Ms Vicki Adams, A.F.) left later than she thought"!
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And who does Mr O'Meara think was the man Officer Baker caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up?
I think this is a slightly garbled memory of an encounter with Oswald.
Ignoring your assassination team nonsense, the only other white male who might be on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Jack Dougherty, a possibility that cannot be ruled out if someone is inclined to go down the "everything is a hoax" path.
The actual evidence----------Officer Baker's same-day affidavit, during the writing of which Mr Oswald was brought in in front of Officer Baker---------tells us that Officer Baker did not make any firm connection between the man caught walking away from the rear stairway and the suspect just brought in.
Yes Alan, the actual evidence.
In his report, Marvin Johnson states that Baker immediately identified Oswald. Get over it.
Why wasn't Oswald in Baker's affidavit? In the same report Johnson tells us he took Baker's affidavit and it was only 'later' he identified Oswald:
"Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository."
This makes sense of why Baker didn't put this identification of Oswald in his affidavit. The confusion arises from this passage in Johnson's report:
"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."
This gives the distinct impression that it is at the same time as Baker is actually giving the affidavit that he identifies Oswald. This is in distinct contrast with Johnson's earlier observation that Baker had given his affidavit and it was 'later' that Baker identified Oswald. So, which is it? The fact Oswald isn't mentioned in Baker's affidavit supports the latter assertion, that Baker identified Oswald 'later'.
To resolve this point it would be helpful to know what time Oswald was taken in to talk to the Secret Service men.
[/quote]
The fact that Officer Baker was not brought to a lineup only makes things worse for your silly claim! Thumb1:
I'm not aware of any law enforcement official being called into a line-up. I was under the impression this was something civilians did
No, during-the-fact corroboration would do the trick-----------------if Officer Baker confidently identified the suspect just brought in as the man he caught walking away from the rear stairway, Det. Johnson would have made sure this all-important fact made it into the affidavit. At the very, very least, Officer Baker would have been brought to a lineup. None of this happened
See above regarding your confusion on this issue.
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Correct! Thumb1:
So Mr Lovelady lied to the WC about where he was when he saw Officer Baker and Mr Truly heading for the front door.
And Mr Shelley told one story involving Ms Calvary in his same-day affidavit, a very different one to the WC.
The question is-------------------why?
Both Lovelady and Shelley tell the same lie regarding how long it took Gloria Calvery to reach the TSBD - 3 minutes. This is an unmitigated lie, not a "misrememberence" or a misunderstanding. It is also a coordinated lie, with both men trying to introduce the same falsehood into the narrative. They both tell a similar, coordinated "lie of omission" in their same day affidavits, both men conveniently forgetting to mention they went down towards the railroad tracks, observed what was going on, then entered the TSBD through the west door. Both men give the very distinct impression that immediately after the assassination they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
In one instance they are trying to erase that they entered through the west door, in another they are trying to put this event later than it actually happened.
My question is - what is going on around the west door.
Only after he left the front of the building, went west and reentered by the side door. (Read his HSCA interview!)
Incorrect.
In his HSCA interview Molina states he stays on the steps "for awhile", then goes towards the grassy knoll then re-enters the TSBD through the red gates on the extension of Elm Street on the south side of the building (not the west door). In the main working area of the first floor he encounters O V Campbell and they are talking until Forest Sorrells interupts.
It doesn't make sense that he then encounters a still-hysterical Calvery in the lobby.
It makes more sense that, after telling Lovelady what has happened, Calvery makes her way into the building passing Molina who is outside the glass doors. Molina steps inside and talks to Calvery and it is this brief conversation that prompts him to go towards the grassy knoll.
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I think this is a slightly garbled memory of an encounter with Oswald.
Ignoring your assassination team nonsense, the only other white male who might be on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Jack Dougherty, a possibility that cannot be ruled out if someone is inclined to go down the "everything is a hoax" path.
Yes Alan, the actual evidence.
In his report, Marvin Johnson states that Baker immediately identified Oswald. Get over it.
Why wasn't Oswald in Baker's affidavit? In the same report Johnson tells us he took Baker's affidavit and it was only 'later' he identified Oswald:
"Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository."
This makes sense of why Baker didn't put this identification of Oswald in his affidavit. The confusion arises from this passage in Johnson's report:
"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."
This gives the distinct impression that it is at the same time as Baker is actually giving the affidavit that he identifies Oswald. This is in distinct contrast with Johnson's earlier observation that Baker had given his affidavit and it was 'later' that Baker identified Oswald. So, which is it? The fact Oswald isn't mentioned in Baker's affidavit supports the latter assertion, that Baker identified Oswald 'later'.
To resolve this point it would be helpful to know what time Oswald was taken in to talk to the Secret Service men.
I'm not aware of any law enforcement official being called into a line-up. I was under the impression this was something civilians did
See above regarding your confusion on this issue.
"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."
There's a couple of problems with Marvin Johnson's statement.... It's an accepted fact that Baker encountered Lee Oswald at about 12:31 in the second floor lunchroom , but detective Johnson says that Baker said that he encountered Lee on the FOURTH FLOOR
The other problem with detective Johnson's statement is the fact that there were no secret service men who wanted to talk to Lee Oswald that day. Captain Fritz was the only interrogator and there were no Secret Service men present on 11-22-63.
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"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."
There's a couple of problems with Marvin Johnson's statement.... It's an accepted fact that Baker encountered Lee Oswald at about 12:31 in the second floor lunchroom , but detective Johnson says that Baker said that he encountered Lee on the FOURTH FLOOR
That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty
The other problem with detective Johnson's statement is the fact that there were no secret service men who wanted to talk to Lee Oswald that day. Captain Fritz was the only interrogator and there were no Secret Service men present on 11-22-63.
This, if correct, is an important point.
Oswald was brought in around 2:00 pm but Johnson wasn't in police HQ until around 3:00PM, so Baker couldn't have given his affidavit until after 3:00 PM.
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?
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That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty
This, if correct, is an important point.
Oswald was brought in around 2:00 pm but Johnson wasn't in police HQ until around 3:00PM, so Baker couldn't have given his affidavit until after 3:00 PM.
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?
I believe that it was around 5:00 pm ( possibly later) when Baker was asked to give his affidavit. Baker didn't realize that he may have encountered the assassin in his dash to the roof of the TSBD. But Roy Truly had told Fritz that Baker had encountered the assassin ( Truly's statement was the opening gun at the framing of Lee Oswald) when he and Baker dashed through the building just seconds after the shots were fired. Thus Fritz asked Baker to give an affidavit covering his dash through the TSBD with Roy Truly. The only suspicious person that came to Baker's mind was the the 5'9" . 165 pound , man with DARK hair who was wearing a light brown jacket and sneaking away from the stairs as Baker emerged from the stairwell on an upper floor.
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That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty
This, if correct, is an important point.
Oswald was brought in around 2:00 pm but Johnson wasn't in police HQ until around 3:00PM, so Baker couldn't have given his affidavit until after 3:00 PM.
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?
I believe that Lee was being returned to Captain Fritz's office from the 6:30 line up.....
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I think this is a slightly garbled memory of an encounter with Oswald.
Slightly garbled, lol
Ignoring your assassination team nonsense, the only other white male who might be on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Jack Dougherty
~Grin~
Let's translate: Given that we know JFK was shot by a Depository employee, only a Depository employee could have been on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting
Talk about Warren Gullible logic!
Yes Alan, the actual evidence.
In his report, Marvin Johnson states that Baker immediately identified Oswald. Get over it.
Why wasn't Oswald in Baker's affidavit? In the same report Johnson tells us he took Baker's affidavit and it was only 'later' he identified Oswald:
"Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository."
This makes sense of why Baker didn't put this identification of Oswald in his affidavit. The confusion arises from this passage in Johnson's report:
"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."
This gives the distinct impression that it is at the same time as Baker is actually giving the affidavit that he identifies Oswald. This is in distinct contrast with Johnson's earlier observation that Baker had given his affidavit and it was 'later' that Baker identified Oswald. So, which is it? The fact Oswald isn't mentioned in Baker's affidavit supports the latter assertion, that Baker identified Oswald 'later'.
Nice try!
Mr. Baker. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.
So, in a way you're right------------Officer Baker did indeed later say that Mr Oswald had been the man he'd confronted. He certainly didn't do so at the time he was giving his affidavit.
The interesting question here is: Did Officer Baker, upon seeing Mr Oswald being brought in, remember his face from their front entrance encounter?
I'm not aware of any law enforcement official being called into a line-up. I was under the impression this was something civilians did
There is a DPD document from shortly after Mr Oswald's death where a section listing Officer Witnesses states that Officer Baker identified Mr Oswald in a lineup (directing the reader to his affidavit)
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Let's translate: Given that we know JFK was shot by a Depository employee, only a Depository employee could have been on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting
Talk about Warren Gullible logic!
Assassination team??
Wake up.
Nice try!
Mr. Baker. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.
So, in a way you're right------------Officer Baker did indeed later say that Mr Oswald had been the man he'd confronted. He certainly didn't do so at the time he was giving his affidavit.
If he was giving his affidavit when Oswald was brought in what happened to Marvin Johnson?
Johnson was the man taking the affidavit but there is no mention of him being there when Oswald was brought in.
How do you explain that?
The interesting question here is: Did Officer Baker, upon seeing Mr Oswald being brought in, remember his face from their front entrance encounter?
"Interesting question" :D
There is a DPD document from shortly after Mr Oswald's death where a section listing Officer Witnesses states that Officer Baker identified Mr Oswald in a lineup (directing the reader to his affidavit)
Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later
Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup.
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Both Lovelady and Shelley tell the same lie regarding how long it took Gloria Calvery to reach the TSBD - 3 minutes. This is an unmitigated lie, not a "misrememberence" or a misunderstanding. It is also a coordinated lie, with both men trying to introduce the same falsehood into the narrative. They both tell a similar, coordinated "lie of omission" in their same day affidavits, both men conveniently forgetting to mention they went down towards the railroad tracks, observed what was going on, then entered the TSBD through the west door.
Perhaps! Or perhaps their later story about going west and then in through the west door was a lie of commission
Both men give the very distinct impression that immediately after the assassination they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
In one instance they are trying to erase that they entered through the west door, in another they are trying to put this event later than it actually happened.
My question is - what is going on around the west door.
My question is------------what is going on around the front door, which is the place where Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman he saw an encounter involving Mr Oswald, an officer and Mr Truly?
Incorrect.
In his HSCA interview Molina states he stays on the steps "for awhile", then goes towards the grassy knoll
And does he give us any idea of how long this "awhile" lasted?
Yes, he does: "when everybody started to get up"
Sounds like aaaaaaaaaaaages!
then re-enters the TSBD through the red gates on the extension of Elm Street on the south side of the building (not the west door).
Like I said, he came into the first floor through a side door. Look at the floor plan! Thumb1:
In the main working area of the first floor he encounters O V Campbell and they are talking until Forest Sorrells interupts.
It doesn't make sense that he then encounters a still-hysterical Calvery in the lobby.
Right, because everyone had, like, totally calmed down within a few minutes of the shooting lol
By the way Mr Molina said Ms Calvery was "horrified". Where does he say she was hysterical?
It makes more sense that, after telling Lovelady what has happened, Calvery makes her way into the building passing Molina who is outside the glass doors. Molina steps inside
But Mr Molina makes it clear he did not step inside the front door
and talks to Calvery and it is this brief conversation that prompts him to go towards the grassy knoll.
Cool story, Mr O'Meara! Thumb1:
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Assassination team??
Wake up.
95% Warren Gullible rules out all scenarios except the lone gunman one. Whooda thunk it?!
If he was giving his affidavit when Oswald was brought in what happened to Marvin Johnson?
Johnson was the man taking the affidavit but there is no mention of him being there when Oswald was brought in.
How do you explain that?
What are you yapping on about, Mr O'Meara?
Det. Johnson's statement, which has gone into HIS taking of Officer Baker's affidavit, closes by stating that Mr Oswald was brought in while Officer Baker was "giving his affidavit": "When Baker saw Oswald he stated 'That is the man...'" Are you now suggesting that Det. Johnson was not even there to hear these words? If not, what on earth are you trying to say?
Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later
Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup.
Right----------further confirmation that your impression that an officer would not participate in a lineup is, like so many of your impressions, wrong
And------------the claim in the document that I cited (that he did identify Mr Oswald in a lineup) was clearly an attempt to gild the lily
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That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty
... though his certainty that it was higher than just one floor up! Thumb1:
And then there's this beautiful little moment:
Mr. Belin. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. Baker. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. Belin. At some higher floor after that?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Well played, Mr Belin!
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... though his certainty that it was higher than just one floor up! Thumb1:
And then there's this beautiful little moment:
Mr. Belin. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. Baker. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. Belin. At some higher floor after that?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Well played, Mr Belin!
I see.
This whole encounter happened in front of Dorothy Garner.
Great stuff.
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I see.
This whole encounter happened in front of Dorothy Garner.
Quite possibly. It's an awful pity (though of course no accident) that Ms Garner was not called to testify
But you'd rather not talk about the fact that Officer Baker has let slip that he has no recollection of running up several floors between his 'employee' encounter and the floor on which the lift was available? I fully understand, Mr O'Meara! Thumb1:
Worth noting in passing that on the way up the building Mr Truly brought Officer Baker on to every floor except one-----------------the sixth
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Quite possibly. It's an awful pity (though of course no accident) that Ms Garner was not called to testify
Quite possibly?? :D
Are you even aware of Barry Ernest's interview with Garner?
But you'd rather not talk about the fact that Officer Baker has let slip that he has no recollection of running up several floors between his 'employee' encounter and the floor on which the lift was available? I fully understand, Mr O'Meara! Thumb1:
It wasn't the 4th floor. Get over it.
Worth noting in passing that on the way up the building Mr Truly brought Officer Baker on to every floor except one-----------------the sixth
Agreed.
That is worth noting.
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Quite possibly?? :D
Are you even aware of Barry Ernest's interview with Garner?
Of course I am! Thumb1:
It wasn't the 4th floor. Get over it.
Well, what did Officer Baker find once he got over the 4th floor? Why, an available elevator! Thumb1:
Agreed.
That is worth noting.
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Of course I am! Thumb1:
Well, what did Officer Baker find once he got over the 4th floor? Why, an available elevator! Thumb1:
You don't think this encounter would've been recalled by Garner?
Interesting.
You are, of course, completely incorrect. The encounter didn't happen on the fourth floor and if you really were familiar with the Garner interview you'd know that, not to mention the Stroud document which makes no mention of such an encounter.
You really do say some silly things.
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You don't think this encounter would've been recalled by Garner?
Interesting.
You are, of course, completely incorrect. The encounter didn't happen on the fourth floor and if you really were familiar with the Garner interview you'd know that, not to mention the Stroud document which makes no mention of such an encounter.
~Grin~
Kindly quote the portion of Mr Ernest's 2011 interview with Ms Garner that you feel backs up your point! Thumb1:
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~Grin~
Kindly quote the portion of Mr Ernest's 2011 interview with Ms Garner that you feel backs up your point! Thumb1:
How can I quote something that didn't happen??
The point is, Garner would've been right there when Baker, with his gun drawn, hollered to Oswald and had the encounter.
It is something that would've been mentioned in both the Stroud document and the Ernest interview.
But it isn't.
As usual, you believe you can make something up and because it isn't denied in the documentary evidence you can argue that it might have happened that way.
You quote anything by Garner that even remotely hints at her seeing this encounter. it is you who needs to show something that supports your nonsensical claim. What independent corroboration do you have for your claim the encounter might have happened on the 4th floor.
(I won't be holding my breath)
Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
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How can I quote something that didn't happen??
~Grin~
So you've nothing. Thanks for confirming! Thumb1:
The point is, Garner would've been right there when Baker,
Which window was she at?
with his gun drawn, hollered to Oswald and had the encounter.
No, not Mr Oswald------a man wearing a light brown jacket.
It is something that would've been mentioned in both the Stroud document and the Ernest interview.
Why? If Ms Garner saw the officer challenge a casually dressed man but then (after Mr Truly vouched for him) let him go, she would have naturally assumed the man was a manual worker who was okay, and thought no more about it
What she DOES tell Mr Ernest in 2011 is that she certainly did not see Mr Oswald
But it isn't.
As usual, you believe you can make something up and because it isn't denied in the documentary evidence you can argue that it might have happened that way.
You quote anything by Garner that even remotely hints at her seeing this encounter. it is you who needs to show something that supports your nonsensical claim. What independent corroboration do you have for your claim the encounter might have happened on the 4th floor.
(I won't be holding my breath)
Why, Officer Baker 11/22 himself puts the encounter (not with Mr Oswald) several floors up, duh!
Thumb1:
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~Grin~
So you've nothing. Thanks for confirming! Thumb1:
Which window was she at?
No, not Mr Oswald------a man wearing a light brown jacket.
Why? If Ms Garner saw the officer challenge a casually dressed man but then (after Mr Truly vouched for him) let him go, she would have naturally assumed the man was a manual worker who was okay, and thought no more about it
What she DOES tell Mr Ernest in 2011 is that she certainly did not see Mr Oswald
Why, Officer Baker 11/22 himself puts the encounter (not with Mr Oswald) several floors up, duh!
Thumb1:
Officer Baker 11/22 himself puts the encounter (not with Mr Oswald) several floors up,
Yes, and I believe the encounter with the man who had dark hair and was wearing a light brown ( Khaki) jacket happened on the fifth floor. This man could easily have been the man that Arnold Rowland saw behind the west end window on the sixth floor. There can be no doubt that Baker was NOT recalling the encounter with Lee Oswald in the second floor lunch room because when Baker testified and was recalling the event to mind he said " It was kind of dark in there by the elevator and I couldn't see very well..... Baker certainly was NOT recalling the encounter with Lee Oswald in the well lit second floor lunch room.
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~Grin~
So you've nothing. Thanks for confirming! Thumb1:
How can I have something that confirms an incident that didn't happen ::)
Garner reports seeing Truly and a policeman coming up the stairs but she says nothing about a confrontation because it didn't happen.
You've based this scenario on Baker's memory of where he was at the time the encounter happened but don't consider for a second that he wasn't really sure where he was in the building.
Let's see if you've got something that confirms your assertion this incident did happen on the 4th floor.
Which window was she at?
Who said she was at a particular window?
She saw Truly come up the stairs so what does it matter.
No, not Mr Oswald------a man wearing a light brown jacket.
Maybe.
Or maybe he was wearing a light brown shirt but because it was hanging out Baker mistook it for a jacket.
Why? If Ms Garner saw the officer challenge a casually dressed man but then (after Mr Truly vouched for him) let him go, she would have naturally assumed the man was a manual worker who was okay, and thought no more about it
So, she thought it was important enough to mention Truly and the police officer coming up the stairs but not important enough to mention an encounter at gunpoint.
And off to fantasyland we go...
What she DOES tell Mr Ernest in 2011 is that she certainly did not see Mr Oswald
Because she didn't see Oswald.
Why, Officer Baker 11/22 himself puts the encounter (not with Mr Oswald) several floors up, duh!
Thumb1:
:D Brilliant
Q: What independent corroboration is there for Baker's insinuation the encounter happened on the 4th floor?
A: Why, Bakers testimony
In your world this probably does count as independent corroboration. Thumb1:
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Officer Baker 11/22 himself puts the encounter (not with Mr Oswald) several floors up,
Yes, and I believe the encounter with the man who had dark hair and was wearing a light brown ( Khaki) jacket happened on the fifth floor. This man could easily have been the man that Arnold Rowland saw behind the west end window on the sixth floor. There can be no doubt that Baker was NOT recalling the encounter with Lee Oswald in the second floor lunch room because when Baker testified and was recalling the event to mind he said " It was kind of dark in there by the elevator and I couldn't see very well..... Baker certainly was NOT recalling the encounter with Lee Oswald in the well lit second floor lunch room.
I looked up Baker's testimony....
Mr Belin--- Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Officer Baker--- At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and some kind of white looking shirt. Anyway as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day and the ( it was ) hanging out to his side.
I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there
Question :.... Was it dim in the lunchroom? Or do photos show that the lunchroom is well illuminated?
Lee was wearing a reddish brown shirt over a white undershirt ... He was NOT wearing a light brown Jacket...
Perhaps a LNer will propose that Baker was color blind and couldn't perceive the difference between the colors red and Light brown.
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"that particular day"
Interesting.
As opposed to.....?
As opposed to the day he was in there for the re-enactment.
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As opposed to the day he was in there for the re-enactment.
Thank you Dan.... I believe that it could have been a bit dim in there on the day of the "re-enactment" but on 11-22-63 it was bright sun shiny day....
But Baker wasn't viewing Lee's corpse .... He said that he saw Lee in the lunchroom at about 12:31 / 12:32 on 11-22-63.
The point is: Baker said it was DIM in there.... And I believe that he was recalling the encounter with the 165 pound dark haired man who was wearing a khaki jacket and attempting to evade an encounter with Baker on "either the third or fourth floor" ( actually I believe it was the fifth floor.) It was dimly lit on the fifth and sixth floors ......
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Lee was wearing a reddish brown shirt over a white undershirt ... He was NOT wearing a light brown Jacket...
"reddish brown shirt" also not shown to Baker so we know with 100% certainty we're dealing with a fake investigation.
"a light brown Jacket" originates from Baker's affidavit and I'll bet you the dim thing is something he made up on the fly to help support the idea of a misidentified CE 150.
"reddish brown shirt" also not shown to Baker so we know with 100% certainty we're dealing with a fake investigation.
Thank you Otto.... That's an observation that I hadn't considered. And you're absolutely right..... The bastards who were framing Lee Oswald knew full well that he had worn the reddish brown shirt with the BUTTON DOWN COLLAR at the TSBD that morning and that's the shirt that Baker would have seen..... But it's much more difficult to morph a RED shirt with a button down collar into a khaki jacket.
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Garner reports seeing Truly and a policeman coming up the stairs but she says nothing about a confrontation because it didn't happen.
~Grin~
She also says nothing about the arrival on four shortly thereafter of Messrs Norman, Jarman & Williams. Does that mean that never happened? Of course not. The issue, as she understood it, involved Ms Adams, Mr Truly and Officer Baker, and she helpfully spoke to her sightings of those three people.
If Ms Garner saw the officer challenge a casually dressed man, and if she heard Mr Truly tell the officer this man was ok, he was an employee, and if she saw the officer let the man go and then continue on up to the next floor, then she would have given the incident no further thought----------for it was to all appearances an event of zero real significance. A complete nothing burger. It wouldn't have even crossed her mind that a) this man was NOT in fact a manual worker and therefore b) Mr Truly was lying. The presence there of a bona fide employee (who was not Mr Oswald, the man everyone was saying shot JFK) would have been no more worthy of mention later than the arrival on four shortly thereafter of Messrs Norman, Jarman & Williams, manual employees who had also been on a higher floor.
However! She was quite categorical to Mr Ernest in 2011 on one point: she did NOT see Mr Oswald
Bottom line: it is perfectly possible that Officer Baker's confrontation with a man other than Mr Oswald happened by the rear stairway on the fourth floor. And despite the impression you tried to create, there is NOTHING in any of Ms Garner's statements that disallows that possibility. If she had been called to appear before the Warren Commission and had--------in response to the question 'Was there anyone else near the stairway when the officer and Mr Truly came up onto the fourth floor?'--------said: 'No, absolutely no one', then you would have an argument.
I suggest therefore that you engage the 5% of your brain that is not hopelessly Warren-Gullible, Mr O'Meara------------doing so will help you will realize the silliness of your non sequitur above!
Q: What independent corroboration is there for Baker's insinuation the encounter happened on the 4th floor?
A: Why, Bakers testimony
-CT makes claim X
-LNer: 'There is no evidence for claim X!'
-CT shows LNer evidence
-LNer: 'But I don't like that evidence! Therefore there is no evidence for claim X!'
:D
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-CT makes claim X
-LNer: 'There is no evidence for claim X!'
-CT shows LNer evidence
-LNer: 'But I don't like that evidence! Therefore there is no evidence for claim X!'
:D
Alan: Baker says the encounter happened on the fourth floor
Me: What independent corroboration do you have for that?
Alan: Baker said so!
Me: WTF are you on?
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Lee was wearing a reddish brown shirt over a white undershirt ... He was NOT wearing a light brown Jacket...
"reddish brown shirt" also not shown to Baker so we know with 100% certainty we're dealing with a fake investigation.
"a light brown Jacket" originates from Baker's affidavit and I'll bet you the dim thing is something he made up on the fly to help support the idea of a misidentified CE 150.
Let's put this "light brown jacket" nonsense to bed.
This is CE151
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnXrz0Yy/light-brown-shirt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)photoupload (https://postimages.org/)
It is described as a "Man's light-brown cotton long-sleeved sport shirt."
This is the shirt Oswald wore to work and changed out of when he went back to the rooming house.
Baker lived in a world where everyone had their shirt tucked in and simply mistook Oswald's light brown shirt for a jacket because it wasn't tucked in:
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Not exactly a massive mystery.
Light brown sports shirt over a white t-shirt mistaken for a jacket because it was hanging out.
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Alan: Baker says the encounter happened on the fourth floor
Me: What independent corroboration do you have for that?
Alan: Baker said so!
Me: WTF are you on?
Mr O'Meara, you and I agree that Mr Bill Shelley clearly lied about his immediate post-assassination movements, yes? What independent corroboration do we have for this, our shared conclusion?
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Let's put this "light brown jacket" nonsense to bed.
This is CE151
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnXrz0Yy/light-brown-shirt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)photoupload (https://postimages.org/)
It is described as a "Man's light-brown cotton long-sleeved sport shirt."
This is the shirt Oswald wore to work and changed out of when he went back to the rooming house.
Baker lived in a world where everyone had their shirt tucked in and simply mistook Oswald's light brown shirt for a jacket because it wasn't tucked in:
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
The key words being "At that particular time"---------------------i.e. the time he was facing the man.
If we continue the quotation we get this: "Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me,"------------i.e. just before this-----------"it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side."
At this particular time, Officer Baker was not looking at his face. He saw what the man was wearing
As for his "It was kind of dim in there that particular day", it's laughable: it was not kind of dim in the lunchroom
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Not exactly a massive mystery.
Light brown sports shirt over a white t-shirt mistaken for a jacket because it was hanging out.
But Officer Baker is saying the 'jacket' was "similar in color" to the ARREST shirt, not the reddish-brown shirt Mr Oswald changed out of after the shooting. He's trying to be helpful in a Whaley kind of way, and he's painfully aware of what's in his affidavit. What he doesn't know is that his affidavit won't be made public until the 1990s..............
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If in doubt counting landings, just say "lunchroom".
Yep. A man walking away from the stairway is a man walking away from the stairway. A man walking away from behind a closed door into a room is a man walking away from behind a closed door into a room.
Officer Baker interrupted the descent by the rear stairs of a light-brown-jacket-wearing man, and this happened more than just one floor up. Not complicated!
Mr Truly vouched for this man as an employee. Complicated!
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Mr O'Meara, you and I agree that Mr Bill Shelley clearly lied about his immediate post-assassination movements, yes? What independent corroboration do we have for this, our shared conclusion?
Darnell
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The key words being "At that particular time"---------------------i.e. the time he was facing the man.
If we continue the quotation we get this: "Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me,"------------i.e. just before this-----------"it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side."
At this particular time, Officer Baker was not looking at his face. He saw what the man was wearing
As for his "It was kind of dim in there that particular day", it's laughable: it was not kind of dim in the lunchroom
It isn't really laughable as we don't actually have a clue what the lighting situation was in the room at that time.
Were all the lights on?
We don't know.
What stands in Baker's favour on this point is that it was certainly possible it was dim as there are no windows in that room and it is completely dependent on what lights are switched on. If it was a room with windows, on a bright sunny day, it would have been more difficult to understand.
But Officer Baker is saying the 'jacket' was "similar in color" to the ARREST shirt, not the reddish-brown shirt Mr Oswald changed out of after the shooting. He's trying to be helpful in a Whaley kind of way, and he's painfully aware of what's in his affidavit. What he doesn't know is that his affidavit won't be made public until the 1990s..............
The point I was making here wasn't about the colour, it was about Baker misidentifying the shirt as a jacket because it was hanging out.
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
There can be no argument the colour of the jacket Baker gives is light brown and CE151 is described as a light brown sports shirt.
It is not a massive leap to see how Baker could mistake a shirt for a jacket as it was hanging out.
It is also clear from Baker's testimony that the clothes he sees "Oswald" wearing in the police station are different from those he sees in the TSBD:
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
I understand you can't have Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom but Baker's description of his clothes can't really be used to support that point.
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It isn't really laughable as we don't actually have a clue what the lighting situation was in the room at that time.
Were all the lights on?
We don't know.
What stands in Baker's favour on this point is that it was certainly possible it was dim as there are no windows in that room and it is completely dependent on what lights are switched on. If it was a room with windows, on a bright sunny day, it would have been more difficult to understand.
The point I was making here wasn't about the colour, it was about Baker misidentifying the shirt as a jacket because it was hanging out.
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
There can be no argument the colour of the jacket Baker gives is light brown and CE151 is described as a light brown sports shirt.
It is not a massive leap to see how Baker could mistake a shirt for a jacket as it was hanging out.
It is also clear from Baker's testimony that the clothes he sees "Oswald" wearing in the police station are different from those he sees in the TSBD:
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
I understand you can't have Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom but Baker's description of his clothes can't really be used to support that point.
Whoa ! I say, Whoa!.... Ya stubborn mule.... Baker was referring to the man that he spotted walking away from the stairs on one of the upper floors, when he said "Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me,"-------"it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it ( the Khaki colored Jacket) was hanging out to his side.
Baker's words don't make sense if you believe that he was referring to the encounter with Lee Oswald in the brightly lit lunchroom. Baker said... "Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me,"
If he had been referring to the lunchroom encounter with LHO, Would that have been the only time that Baker would have noticed that the jacket was "hanging out to his side" ( the jacket was not tucked into the waist band of his trousers) Didn't Baker say that he commanded Lee to "Come here" . and wouldn't he then have clearly seen that the garment was a jacket if it had been???
Lee was not wearing a Jacket and his shirt was a REDDISH brown color...NOT khaki.
"It was kind of dim in there ....Yes, this is true ... in the area by the elevators it was not well lit..."it was kind of dim in there", but the lunchroom was well lit.
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Whoa ! I say, Whoa!.... Ya stubborn mule.... Baker was referring to the man that he spotted walking away from the stairs on one of the upper floors, when he said "Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me,"-------"it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it ( the Khaki colored Jacket) was hanging out to his side.
Baker's words don't make sense if you believe that he was referring to the encounter with Lee Oswald in the brightly lit lunchroom. Baker said... "Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me,"
"Whoa" yourself Walt.
Go back and read Baker's testimony. At the point you have quoted above Baker has left the stairwell and is stood in the "vestibule".
That's when he makes the reference to "Oswald" walking away from him.
It may well have been dim in the vestibule, it may have been dim in the lunchroom itself, we have no way of knowing.
If he had been referring to the lunchroom encounter with LHO, Would that have been the only time that Baker would have noticed that the jacket was "hanging out to his side" ( the jacket was not tucked into the waist band of his trousers) Didn't Baker say that he commanded Lee to "Come here" . and wouldn't he then have clearly seen that the garment was a jacket if it had been???
Baker is very clear he was focused on the man's face:
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Mistaking a light brown sports shirt hanging loose for a light brown jacket is no biggie.
...his shirt was a REDDISH brown color...NOT khaki.
What makes you think that?
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"Whoa" yourself Walt.
Go back and read Baker's testimony. At the point you have quoted above Baker has left the stairwell and is stood in the "vestibule".
That's when he makes the reference to "Oswald" walking away from him.
It may well have been dim in the vestibule, it may have been dim in the lunchroom itself, we have no way of knowing.
Baker is very clear he was focused on the man's face:
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Mistaking a light brown sports shirt hanging loose for a light brown jacket is no biggie.
What makes you think that?
Mistaking a light brown sports shirt hanging loose for a light brown jacket is no biggie.
Yes, that's true......BUT .... Lee was NOT wearing a light brown ( khaki) garment.....His shirt was a REDDISH BROWN with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR..
...his shirt was a REDDISH brown color...NOT khaki.
What makes you think that?
Lee told the interrogators who recorded his words.( took notes) See;... Bookhout report on page 622 of WR ....Lee said that he went to his room and changed his clothes. He described the clothes "as being a reddish colored shirt, long sleeved shirt with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR and grey colored trousers. He indicated that he put these articles of clothing in a lower drawer of his dresser." Quote from page 622 of WR.
So not only did lee tell Fritz that he was wearing a reddish colored shirt with a button down collar, Detective Potts found that shirt in the dresser later that afternoon, which verifies that Lee changed his clothes and he was NOT wearing any khaki colored garments that day.
PS Can someone post Potts exhibit? ..... Which is a list of the items removed from Lee's room at the roominghouse
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Darnell
There is nothing in the Darnell film that contradicts Mr Shelley's 11/22/63 affidavit account of his immediate post-assassination movements
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"Whoa" yourself Walt.
Go back and read Baker's testimony. At the point you have quoted above Baker has left the stairwell and is stood in the "vestibule".
That's when he makes the reference to "Oswald" walking away from him.
It may well have been dim in the vestibule, it may have been dim in the lunchroom itself, we have no way of knowing.
Baker is very clear he was focused on the man's face:
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Mistaking a light brown sports shirt hanging loose for a light brown jacket is no biggie.
What makes you think that?
Baker is very clear he was focused on the man's face:
This is a very weak reply, Dan.... We both know that a persons vision isn't like a photograph which has edges
A person may be focused on something in their field of vision but the eye still sees other things in the field.....thus even if Baker was looking at Lee's face...he would also have seen the upper garment that he was wearing.....
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It isn't really laughable as we don't actually have a clue what the lighting situation was in the room at that time.
Were all the lights on?
All the lights??
(https://i.imgur.com/cWiORTe.jpg)
We don't know.
What stands in Baker's favour on this point is that it was certainly possible it was dim as there are no windows in that room and it is completely dependent on what lights are switched on. If it was a room with windows, on a bright sunny day, it would have been more difficult to understand.
You can't seriously be suggesting that Officer Baker and Mr Truly saw Mr Oswald in a lunchroom where the ceiling light was switched off--------i.e. a dark lunchroom?
The point I was making here wasn't about the colour, it was about Baker misidentifying the shirt as a jacket because it was hanging out.
Officer Baker is making a point about the color: he tries to resolve the color discrepancy between "light brown jacket" and CE150 by inventing "dim" lighting conditions in the lunchroom. He's being hopelessly helpful in that Whaley kinda way
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
There can be no argument the colour of the jacket Baker gives is light brown and CE151 is described as a light brown sports shirt.
You're quite right that Mr Oswald wore the light brown shirt to work that day. However there is no good reason to believe that the "light brown jacket" Officer Baker described in his same-day affidavit had anything to do with that shirt or its owner. He encountered a man in a light brown jacket by the rear stairway on a floor higher than the second
It is not a massive leap to see how Baker could mistake a shirt for a jacket as it was hanging out.
It is also clear from Baker's testimony that the clothes he sees "Oswald" wearing in the police station are different from those he sees in the TSBD:
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
I understand you can't have Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom but Baker's description of his clothes can't really be used to support that point.
Wrong place, wrong clothing, zero connection made between man by rear stairway and man just brought in in handcuffs-------------------it's Officer Baker's own affidavit that disallows this as a lunchroom encounter with Mr Oswald.
As for having Mr Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, I do have him there: before the P. Parade, just like he said
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Baker is very clear he was focused on the man's face:
This is a very weak reply, Dan.... We both know that a persons vision isn't like a photograph which has edges
A person may be focused on something in their field of vision but the eye still sees other things in the field.....thus even if Baker was looking at Lee's face...he would also have seen the upper garment that he was wearing.....
If Officer Baker had not taken in what the man was wearing, he would not have given a confident clothing description: "light brown jacket". Where he was unsure about something, he said so: "on the third or fourth floor".
The affidavit-------------which was not made public until the 1990s---------------is a disaster for the lunchroom story
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If Officer Baker had not taken in what the man was wearing, he would not have given a confident clothing description: "light brown jacket". Where he was unsure about something, he said so: "on the third or fourth floor".
The affidavit-------------which was not made public until the 1990s---------------is a disaster for the lunchroom story
The affidavit-------------which was not made public until the 1990s--
This is the kind of thing that we have a tendency to forget. much of the information that we now know didn't surface until decades after the fact..... If Sylvia Meagher or Mark Lane had known some of the facts that we now know, They could probably have flushed the Warren Report right down the toilet just Like Hosty did with the Oswald note......
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The affidavit-------------which was not made public until the 1990s--
This is the kind of thing that we have a tendency to forget. much of the information that we now know didn't surface until decades after the fact..... If Sylvia Meagher or Mark Lane had known some of the facts that we now know, They could probably have flushed the Warren Report right down the toilet just Like Hosty did with the Oswald note......
Officer Baker saw Mr Oswald brought in and of course knew he was not the man he'd caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor. If he remembered him from their front entrance encounter, he must have assumed he had been arrested for involvement in the assassination, and not as the shooter.
No doubt part of the pressure applied on him after that------------to come on board the ridiculous lunchroom story-------------involved impressing upon him the 'fact' that Mr Oswald had killed one of Officer Baker's fellow officers
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Your position is based on the notion that there was a "lockdown" and/or "the building was sealed off" at 12:36. (Yeah, I know you weasel it out to "about 12:36" at some point, buy you always refer back to 12:36 as a hard point.)
More BS. In the timeline I made clear that the times were approximations. You must have missed that in your eagerness to make an invalid point.
I said you start out claiming they were approximations; but that as the discussion goes on, you start to treat them as hard points. Can you not read?
The 12:36 comes ultimately comes from DV Harkness' channel two transmission
I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but I never said that and it is actually incorrect
Harkness' 12:36 transmission is the earliest mention in the record that there is even an intent to "seal off," "lock down," "cordon off," "ring," and/or otherwise surround the building with officers. If you didn't get it from Harkness, then where did you get the idea that the building was locked down at 12:36?
Only then does Harkness go to "seal off" the "back of the building." Even then, it's going to take some time for him to get into position. All of this activity, from transmission get taking position behind the building, would easily consume another minute, maybe another two or three. Instead of Harkness sealing off any part of the building at 12:36, it's really more like 12:37 at the earliest. Maybe 12:38. Or 12:39. Maybe even later.
So much irrelevant "reasoning" to make a completely insignificant point, because Harkness was sealing off the back of the building and Styles and Adams entered the building at the front entrance, so whatever Harkness was doing at that point in time is of no importance.
"Irrelevant," my tuchus! Adams encounter with the officer behind the TSBD indicates that she and Styles didn't leave the building until your "lockdown" was already in the process of forming. And Harkness is the first officer to cover that part of the building. So, the two women can't leave the building until some point after Harkness goes around to the back.
Adams' testimony, then, indicates that she didn't exit the building until after the cordon began to be established.
No, she did not indicate that at all. It's your speculative conclusion based upon your assumption that "the cordon began to be established" when Adams left the building. There is not a shred of evidence for that assumption.
What actually happened is that after Harkness delivered Euins to Sawyer, he and other two officers were instructed by Sawyer to check the railway yard, which is what they subsequently did. Adams testified that she got to approximately 2 yards within the tracks when she encountered a police officer who told her to go back to the building. So, the obvious conclusion must be that Adams encountered a police officer who had been ordered to check the railway yard. That's it. That's all we know. Everything else originates from your imagination.
Again, my conclusion is based on Adams' own description of her encounter with the police officer behind the TSBD. We know from her account that the encounter occurred very close to the TSBD itself: she had to skirt the west side of the building to get to the front, and her initial response to the officer is, "but I work here." She doesn't say "but I work over there." This, in turn, demonstrates that the tracks she crossed were the spur running next to the Depository.
The officer's instructions are very specific: return to the building. That's would be expected if he was trying to seal off the building to keep people from leaving or those from outside from entering onto the premises. If his goal was to keep her out of the rail yards, then he wouldn't have cared where she went so long as it wasn't the rail yards, and he wouldn't have ordered her to a specific destination.
To top it off, you've mangled (oh, let's say it just for giggles: misrepresented) Harkness' testimony. After he'd put Euins in Sawyer's car, Harkness went around the TSBD to cover the rear of the building until he was relieved by other officers assigned to that task. He then went back to the front and helped Sawyer deal with crowd control for some unspecified amount of time. Only then was he tasked with checking freight cars on a train that was set to leave the yard. Going by DPD the radio logs. This activity didn't commence until after 1:44 PM, when the radio dispatcher told Sawyer that the railroad people wanted an outbound train to be inspected so it would be clear to leave the yard. The train involved was a northbound train located to the West of Lee Bowers' tower. The freight car shakedown is too far away from the TSBD to account for Adams' police encounter, and happens much, much later than you want to believe.
Wrong on all counts and it doesn't even answer my question. There is good reason to believe that the front entrance of the building was locked down at around 12:36 / 12:37 because Sawyer testified that he posted two men at the main entrance at that exact moment. And nowhere in her testimony does Adams indicate that she did not leave the building until after a cordon was established. You just made that up.
I never argued that Adams said that she "didn't leave the building until after a cordon was established". I said that her description of a confrontation with a Dallas police officer is what we would expect to see had the officer been trying to seal off the building, and not what we would expect if the officer was trying to keep people out of the parking lot and/or rail yards.
And I guess you weren't content to bungle just Harkness' testimony, deciding instead to give us an encore by mangling (nay, misrepresenting) Sawyer's testimony as well. Here is what Sawyer testifies to:
1.) After the motorcade passes his position at Main and Ervay, he waits for the crowd to disperse a bit, then starts westward in his car.
2.) At some point, he hears Decker on channel 2 ordering his people to the area of the triple overpass.
3.) He drives to Dealey Plaza, and parks his car in front of the TSBD. At some point before he leaves the car, he hears a transmission stating that the shots came from the TSBD (This is probably Haygood's 12:35 broadcast)
4.) He leaves the car and gathers information about what has happened from the few officers in front of the TSBD. At some point, one of the officers relates that a witness stated the shots came from the fifth floor of the TSBD.
5.) Armed with this information, Sawyer enters the building with two officers and takes the elevator to the top floor. He looks around, then comes back down. He remembers that this activity took "no more than three minutes." He agrees with Belin that he didn't walk back out of the building until at least 12:37.
6.) At some point after his return, he tells the officers already in front of the TSBD to not let anyone in or out.
7.) He gets on the radio to ask for more manpower, and asks for someone to start gathering up the officers still along the parade route on Main so they can be directed to go to the TSBD.
There are some complications here. The first is that Belin's "12:37" is based on a three minute span after Sawyer hears the Haygood transmission. As Belin says "Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?" to which Sawyer agrees. Belin's transcript puts that transmission at 12:34; however, if you read the transcript, you'll see this:
142 (Ptm CA Haygood): I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.
Dispatcher: 10-4. Get his name, address, telephone number there - all the information that you can from him. 12:35 p.m.
Belin's "12:37", to which Sawyer agreed, is really 12:38. That's the earliest that Sawyer said he could been back on the ground in front of the TSBD. It's the earliest possible time that Sawyer could have assigned anyone to prevent anyone from leaving or entering. It excludes the possibility of any "lockdown" being established at 12:36 or 12:37. And consider Harkness' testimony for a minute. Harkness said that when he showed up in front of the Depository with Amos Euins in tow, he saw Sawyer standing in front of the building "taking information." After getting Euins into Sawyer's car, Harkness told Sawyer that Euins said that he saw a rifleman on the 5th floor. This part of Harkness' testimony intersects neatly with Sawyer's recollections of collecting information while standing in front of the TSBD, then taking off into the building after hearing about a gunman on the 5th floor. Therefore, Sawyer's elevator ride didn't start until some point after Harkness told Sawyer about Euins. Since Harkness didn't tell the Inspector about Euins until some time after his 12:36 transmission, the elevator expedition could not have begun before 12:36. If the whole trip was only two minutes long, then Sawyer could not have been in position to order anyone to lock down the front entrance until at least 12:38. And if you factor in the time it took Harkness to get Euins on his bike, turn the bike around, get it back to Sawyer's car, get Euins in the car, and get Euins' story across to Sawyer, the Sawyer ascent can't occur before 12:37 and lasts until something like 12:39, minimum. At this point, the notion of a "12:36 lockdown" is a distant memory.
There is one more thing about Sawyer's testimony that needs to be brought up, if just for the irony of it. Something that I'd forgotten about since I'd first read it years ago. Sawyer didn't take the freight elevators at the rear of the building. He used the passenger elevator near the building entrance. That elevator goes no higher than the fourth floor. Yes, that fourth floor! And Sawyer even noted to Belin:
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.
Honestly, I'm not sure what this really amounts to. But it's quite a kink in the story.
You have not shown that my so-called assumptions are unwarrented. All you have done is concocted your own little bogus story about when the back of the building was locked down.
You have it backwards. You have yet to show that your unwarranted assumptions are anything but.
MT:Adams testified that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She was allowed to review her testimony in print, and she literally signed off on it with not objections as to her testimony as to Lovelady and Shelley's presence in the first floor.
And yet Shelley and Lovelady did not confirm seeing Adams and Styles, despite the back area of the first floor being an open area and Adams told Barry Ernest that she wasn't aware this was in her testimony and she denied ever saying it. Also, the preponderance of evidence shows that it was a physical impossibility for Adams to see Shelley and Lovelady, when they re-entered the building at 12:35.
Adams handwritten corrections and signature on the original transcript trump any objection that you or Ernst can come up with. If she signed off on it, that's what she said that she said. BTW, Lovelady did mention seeing a woman on the first floor. While he said he couldn't swear that it was Adams, but he didn't say that it wasn't have been her. Just because Adams saw and recognized Lovelady and Shelly on the first floor doesn't mean that they were looking in the right direction or paying attention at the right time.
When all other parts of the evidence fit, the only thing that does not fit must be regarded as unreliable and not the other way around!
The problem is, you are in the habit of smashing sqauare pegs through round holes then pointing to the resulting splintered mess and crowing, "hey! look at how all this evidence fits!"
Aha... another mistaken or confused witness.... How convenient.
The Stroud letter is clear; Garner said she saw Truly and a police come up after the girls had gone down. That was relevant information which warranted to be included in the letter. Truly coming down and meeting another officer on the 4th floor would have been of no significance. But, nice try.
The one thing that's clear about the Stroud letter is that it's hearsay. We don't really know exactly what she said to Stroud. We know that Truly said he ran into an officer on the 4th floor as he was descending.
When you need to bend and misrepresent the facts as much as you do, it's pretty obvious that I have made my point, yet again!
I keep noticing that, when you run out of ammunition you like to bandy about how you've been a victim of "misrepresentation." I also keep noticing that you are pretty light on exactly what was misrepresented, and how so. OF course, you make these baseless accusations in order to declare yourself the victor of some game that you alone are contesting.
First of all, where did you get the notion that the stockroom was full of books? Another assumption perhaps? Secondly, you assume that Adams and Styles stayed at the window after the shots, when in fact they didn't. In the wall between the office space and the stockroom, there is a door. Adams, Styles and Garner went through that door and directly to the stairs. They would have seen anybody in the area of the stairs, but even if they didn't see anybody, they most certainly would have heard somebody running on those wooden stairs and floors.
Now, why would I think that a company that sells books operating from within a book warehouse called the Texas School Book Depository would have a "stock room" that was full of books? Imagine that!
Next you will be angrily demanding to know why I think that Baskin Robbins is full of ice cream.
As for what Our Ladies of the Fourth Floor would have heard, it may not have been anything from near the stairs if they were still at the window in the office and so attuned to the activity on the ground below and/or their own chatter.
The bottom line is a simple one; in the timeline I have presented everything fits and is corroborated except for the location where Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady.
For your alternative timeline (fragments) to work, witnesses have to be mistaken, confused or misunderstood, Victoria Adams' testimony needs to be misrepresented, the lock down didn't happen when the officers said it did and it wasn't really a lock down at all. What you still haven't figured out is that more you have to misrepresent details to make a counter argument the less credible your story becomes.
For my "alternative timeline" to work, all I need are two things:
1.) For Adams to have left later than she remembered (IIRC, Styles thought it was minutes, not seconds, after the last shot was fired)
2.) for Garner to have misinterpreted seeing a later pairing of Truly and a DPD officer with the original Truly/Baker stairmaster episode.
Your scenario requires:
1.) Either Adams lied about seeing Lovelady and Shelley or her testimony was altered by the Nefarious Gubmint Kunspeeracy.
2.) Adams/Styles and Truly/Baker converge on the same area of the building near the freight elevators and back stairs at the same time without either member of either pair noticing the presence of either or both members of the other pair.
3.) A "lockdown" of the TSBD existing at 12:36/12:37, for which you've presented no actual evidence other than mangling (this is to say, misrepresenting) the testimony of Inspector Sawyer.
4.) A police perimiter guarding the rail yards before 12:35, something else for which you have presented any evidence for other than mangling (that is to say, misrepresenting) the testimony of Sgt Harkness.
Now, instead of making all sorts of assumptions that go nowhere, why don't you try to put together a timeline that takes in account all the known information and actually works? Shouldn't be so hard to do if you are sure you are right.....
I don't think you can really make a simple timeline out of all this. As far as I can tell, there are three possibilities regarding Adams and Styles:
1.) They left quickly (15-30 seconds after the last shot, per Adams) and made it down and left the building before some combination of Piper, Truly, and Baker notice them, even though the two ladies would have been right in front of Truly and Baker as the two men quickly made their way towards the NW corner of the building.
2.) The lunchroom crowd had the jump on Adams and Styles, but not by much, while lunchroom encounter happened with Truly, Baker, and Oswald (feel free to substitute for the latter if you must) entirely in the lunchroom. And the door closed enough that Adams and Styles swept right by without noticing what was happening. I should note that someone going downstairs (ie Adams)would turn away from the lunchroom door, while someone coming up the stairs (ie, Baker) would turn towards it. That could account for the Shelley/Lovelady sighting, but the outside officer encounter is a bad fit for this scenario.
3.) Adams and Styles left some minutes after the last shot. This would fit the Shelley/Lovelady sighting and the outside officer encounter, but Adams, at least, remembers leaving much sooner.
As for the "lockdown," it's probably worth remembering that at the time of the shooting there were three DPD officers stationed on the corner of Elm and Houston and two on the triple overpass. Harkness was at Main and Houston. That's why the initial response was dominated by the Sheriff's department with backup from the Constable's office; they were already lined up along the Plaza next to their headquarters, but the DPD presence was thinly sliced along the parade route.
the first mention of the TSBD as a source of the shots was the Haygood transmission at 12:35
The first mention of surrounding the building is Harkness' fifth-floor witness broadcast at some point well into 12:36. Even then, Harkness only signalled his intent to do so at this time.
Sawyer exits his car between these two transmissions. He stands on the sidewalk in front of the Depository, collecting information about what happened from the officers at the scene.
Harkness arrives with Euins and puts Euins in Sawyer's car. By the time he's through with that, it's 12:37. Then he tells Sawyer about Euins, and leaves to cover the rear of the TSBD.
In the beginning, the intent is only to prevent potential suspects from escaping the building. He gets to the rear of the building, but he's the only officer there. He gets on his radio at 12:41 and asks for a squad. The dispatcher responds to this request by detailing Billy Bass (#101) to meet Harkness at Elm and Houston. Bass is currently North of Dealey Plaza on Harry Hines and Wolfe. Dispatch thinks better of the situation, and follows up by ordering all police units downtown to converge on the TSBD. Unit #61 (Vaughn and Temple) respond to this call. Dispatch then assigns squad #71 (Marvin Wise), then southeast of downtown, to stop what he was doing and report to the Depository. Vaughn, Wise, and Bass all later play a role in the capture of the three tramps. Other officers (Sgt Jennings, Osburn, Williams, Wilkins, Davenport, Pearce) respond to the call by 12:45. At some point, enough officers are on site to cover the building that Harkness leaves them to cover the building, while he goes back to the front to assist Sawyer.
In the meantime, Sawyer continues to collect info until he figures he has enough info to go on, and decides to go into the TSBD to see for himself. He takes the front elevator to the fourth floor, looks around for a bit, and comes back down. He gives the officers near the building entrance orders to not let anyone into or out of the building. He gets on the radio at 12:43 to ask for "more manpower." I figure he did both of those soon after coming back down from four; it make sense that once he had the entry covered, he'd quickly ask for more guys to finish surrounding the building. He didn't seem to know that Harkness has asked for additional guys....kinda hard to listen to a police car radio when you're in an elevator. Also, by 12:43 the reinforcements directed to Elm and Houston by the dispatcher at Harkness' request haven't arrived yet.
If you roll it up, the police don't begin to surround the TSBD no sooner than 12:37 at the very earliest. Even then, it's initially only Sawyer and the few cops with him at the front door and Harkness all by himself at the back. It's really not until about 12:45, maybe even later, that enough officers are on site to really "seal off" the entire building. The "lockdown" part doesn't start until Sawyer is through with his excellent adventure upstairs, and really isn't earlier than about 12:40.
AS for Adams reentry, this depends on which "police report" she heard mentioning the 4th floor. There are two transmissions that mention the 4th floor. One at 12:40 and one at 12:46. Both place the shots on the "4th or 5th floor" of the building. Of course, she remembered hearing "2nd or 4th," and there is ED Brewer radioed in a report at 12:38 that a witness saw someone shooting from the 2nd floor. Either she listened to the 12:38 and 12:40 broadcasts and forgot the thing about the 5th floor, or she hears either the 12:40 or 12:46 broadcasts and misremembered 5th as second. Either way, she misses a floors, as it were. Each interpretation has it's own good and bad points.
Those are the pieces, anyway
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To add to my previous reply to Mitch Todd, let's examine for a minute the hypocrisy of his position.
In his last post he wrote;
Although what he said is true, in as much as that it says that in her testimony and she did indeed sign the document, which btw happened several days after her testimony when somebody showed up at her workplace and asked her to sign it, after she initially waived signing it.
Todd's hypocrisy is nevertheless on full display, because in the same testimony, Adams also says;
Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs.
and
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
yet Todd completely ignores that and dismisses it, while at the same time attaching great importance to the Shelley/Lovelady remark.
It is obvious there is a great discrepancy between the two remarks, as the Shelley/Lovelady remark implies that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor much later than Adams testified she did. When there are two contradicting statements from a witness, the best way to determine which one is the correct statement is to look for corroboration.
Sow, let's see what Adams told the investigators prior to her testimony;
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;
"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"
and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"
In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot
And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;
"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.
And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noise stairs.
All these statements sufficiently corroborate Adams testimony - I am paraphrasing - that she and Styles left their position at the window and went to the stairs at the back of the building within seconds after the third shot.
Now let's examine what corroboration there is for the Shelley/Lovelady remark.
To say that there isn't any would be a misrepresentation of the facts, because Jim Leavelle wrote in his report of 02/17/64 that Adams said;
"I saw Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill"
But that's about it.
Note that Adams did not say when and where she saw Shelley and Lovelady. That bit of information was only added on during her testimony on 04/07/64. It should also be noted that Adams was not included in the re-enactment of the events on 03/20/64, so before she even testified the WC lawyers were already not interested in what she had to say about what actually happened on 11/22/63.
Also note that Shelley, Lovelady and Sandra Styles did not confirm the alleged encounter on the first floor at the TSBD and that closer examination of Shelley's and Lovelady's actions after the shot show that both men were in the railway yard next to the TSBD until 12:35, which means there is no physical way Adams could have seen both men on the first floor if she came down the stairs immediately after the third shot. On the other hand, it is indeed possible that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady in the railway yard as she passed the men on her way to the front entrance.
And finally it should be noted that on 04/04/64 WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert wrote a remarkable memo in which he refered to a recent staff meeting in which he had objected to what he called "editing of the transcripts of depositions". In the same memo he also complains about the practice of waiving signatures by the witnesses and advocates to have witnesses read and sign the transcript even if it contains errors, which according to him can later be rectified.
Now, isn't it just remarkable that Victoria Adams initially waived signing her testimony, as that would save her from having to return to sign it, only to be confronted by somebody at work a few days later who insisted she would sign after all. And isn't it just as remarkable that Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that she never testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?
This is all just a big bag of hot air intended to talk around the 900 pound gorilla whose married to the elephant in the room. However much innuendo you'd like to pile on, she was given the opportunity to review, make suggested corrections, and sign the transcript of her testimony. She took that opportunity and reviewed her testimony, made her suggested corrections right there on the pages, and signed off on it. This fact brutally kneecaps any notion that she didn't testify to seeing Lovelady and Shelley in 1964. There is no way around that.
As to your charge of "hypocrisy," I will note that human beings are amazingly good at recognizing other humans who are familiar to them. The neuroscience people say that we're actually hardwired to do just that. We aren't nearly as good at estimating arbitrary periods of time. Faith is better placed in "I saw so-and-so" than "it happened five minutes later."
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Let's put this "light brown jacket" nonsense to bed.
This is CE151
It is described as a "Man's light-brown cotton long-sleeved sport shirt."
Here is a color photograph of CE 151:
(https://thejfktruthmatters.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/ce-151-oswald-shirt-attachment-19-39876-e1560623934445.jpg)
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Adams handwritten corrections and signature on the original transcript trump any objection that you or Ernst can come up with.
The page that contains mention of Shelley and Lovelady contains a single handwritten word, "there". You evidence that this word was written by Victoria Adams is . . . ?
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The page that contains mention of Shelley and Lovelady contains a single handwritten word, "there". You evidence that this word was written by Victoria Adams is . . . ?
Also! Why are the corrections written in on this document not reflected in the officially published testimony? Thus-----------to take the example above---------we have "it was a pause" rather than "there was a pause".......
Also #2! At the end of her testimony, Ms Adams waives the right to read and sign her testimony. So why do we have a transcript purporting to be read, corrected & signed by her? Strange!
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Again, my conclusion is based on Adams' own description of her encounter with the police officer behind the TSBD.
And what conclusion might you have reached if you had factored in Ms Adams' mention of seeing Mr Joe Molina & Ms Avery Davis in front of the building when she arrived there?
We know from her account that the encounter occurred very close to the TSBD itself: she had to skirt the west side of the building to get to the front, and her initial response to the officer is, "but I work here." She doesn't say "but I work over there." This, in turn, demonstrates that the tracks she crossed were the spur running next to the Depository.
The officer's instructions are very specific: return to the building. That's would be expected if he was trying to seal off the building to keep people from leaving or those from outside from entering onto the premises.
Oh but these are two very different things, Mr Todd. An officer whose job is to seal the building from the rear will not be standing by the railway tracks! Proof that he didn't care about who was coming in or out of the building is the fact that he let Ms Adams and Ms Styles NOT re-enter the building.
If his goal was to keep her out of the rail yards, then he wouldn't have cared where she went so long as it wasn't the rail yards, and he wouldn't have ordered her to a specific destination.
To top it off, you've mangled (oh, let's say it just for giggles: misrepresented) Harkness' testimony. After he'd put Euins in Sawyer's car, Harkness went around the TSBD to cover the rear of the building until he was relieved by other officers assigned to that task. He then went back to the front and helped Sawyer deal with crowd control for some unspecified amount of time. Only then was he tasked with checking freight cars on a train that was set to leave the yard. Going by DPD the radio logs. This activity didn't commence until after 1:44 PM, when the radio dispatcher told Sawyer that the railroad people wanted an outbound train to be inspected so it would be clear to leave the yard. The train involved was a northbound train located to the West of Lee Bowers' tower. The freight car shakedown is too far away from the TSBD to account for Adams' police encounter, and happens much, much later than you want to believe.
I never argued that Adams said that she "didn't leave the building until after a cordon was established". I said that her description of a confrontation with a Dallas police officer is what we would expect to see had the officer been trying to seal off the building,
Again-----------no
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This is all just a big bag of hot air intended to talk around the 900 pound gorilla whose married to the elephant in the room. However much innuendo you'd like to pile on, she was given the opportunity to review, make suggested corrections, and sign the transcript of her testimony.
She was indeed given that opportunity. And here's how it played out:
Mr. BELIN - Miss Adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?
Miss ADAMS - I think I will let you use your own discretion.
Mr. BELIN - It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.
Miss ADAMS - That is all right.
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The page that contains mention of Shelley and Lovelady contains a single handwritten word, "there". You evidence that this word was written by Victoria Adams is . . . ?
Let me put it this way:
Barry Ernst say's that she signed it and that it's her handwriting on the document. From what I see, the handwriting for "there" was made by the same had as the signature on the last page. As such, there is no reason not assign "there" and the signature and the other writing as Adams'. If you want to argue that it's not Adams' writing on that page, or any other, you're free to do so. But don't think anyone else is going to notice unless you can provide any evidence.
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Let me put it this way:
Barry Ernst say's that she signed it and that it's her handwriting on the document. From what I see, the handwriting for "there" was made by the same had as the signature on the last page. As such, there is no reason not assign "there" and the signature and the other writing as Adams'. If you want to argue that it's not Adams' writing on that page, or any other, you're free to do so. But don't think anyone else is going to notice unless you can provide any evidence.
Remember this?
And finally it should be noted that on 04/04/64 WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert wrote a remarkable memo in which he refered to a recent staff meeting in which he had objected to what he called "editing of the transcripts of depositions". In the same memo he also complains about the practice of waiving signatures by the witnesses and advocates to have witnesses read and sign the transcript even if it contains errors, which according to him can later be rectified.
Now, isn't it just remarkable that Victoria Adams initially waived signing her testimony, as that would save her from having to return to sign it, only to be confronted by somebody at work a few days later who insisted she would sign after all. And isn't it just as remarkable that Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that she never testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?
Btw, How do you reconcile these two statements?;
Adams handwritten corrections and signature on the original transcript trump any objection that you or Ernst can come up with. If she signed off on it, that's what she said that she said. BTW, Lovelady did mention seeing a woman on the first floor. While he said he couldn't swear that it was Adams, but he didn't say that it wasn't have been her. Just because Adams saw and recognized Lovelady and Shelly on the first floor doesn't mean that they were looking in the right direction or paying attention at the right time.
Barry Ernst say's that she signed it and that it's her handwriting on the document.
Amazing, isn't it? You rely on Ernest for confirming that Adams signed the document, yet at the same time you dismiss whatever else Adams told Ernest....
If she signed off on it, that's what she said that she said.
Sure about that? Perhaps you should have a closer look at WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert's memo.....
And you seem to be struggling to make up your mind about Dorothy Garner as well;
First you dismiss what Garner said by qualifying a letter from the office of a United States Attorney to the Chief Counsel of a Presidential Commission as "hearsay"
The one thing that's clear about the Stroud letter is that it's hearsay. We don't really know exactly what she said to Stroud. We know that Truly said he ran into an officer on the 4th floor as he was descending.
Then you have the ladies (by which I pressume you mean Adams, Styles and Garner) nowhere near the stairs, implying that Garner made up what she told Stroud (and Barry Ernest)
As for what Our Ladies of the Fourth Floor would have heard, it may not have been anything from near the stairs if they were still at the window in the office and so attuned to the activity on the ground below and/or their own chatter.
And then you have Garner simply misinterpreting what she saw, when she was at the stairs;
For my "alternative timeline" to work, all I need are two things:
1.) For Adams to have left later than she remembered (IIRC, Styles thought it was minutes, not seconds, after the last shot was fired)
2.) for Garner to have misinterpreted seeing a later pairing of Truly and a DPD officer with the original Truly/Baker stairmaster episode.
So, what is it? Was Garner not near the stairs? Or was she near the stairs but lied to Stroud, or did Stroud perhaps lie to Rankin? Or was she near the stairs and saw Truly coming down and somehow figured he was coming up?
And how about this beauty;
For my "alternative timeline" to work, all I need are two things:
1.) For Adams to have left later than she remembered (IIRC, Styles thought it was minutes, not seconds, after the last shot was fired)
2.) for Garner to have misinterpreted seeing a later pairing of Truly and a DPD officer with the original Truly/Baker stairmaster episode.
Only to say a little bit later;
I don't think you can really make a simple timeline out of all this.
So, on the one hand you claim your timeline would work, and on the other hand you say you can't make a simple timeline. Pray tell, how can a timeline, you say you can't make, still work?
Apart from the obvious fact that you are making a number of erroneous assumptions - the main one being that the officer who told Adams to return to the building was Harkness - the real reason why you can't make a simple timeline is that the parts you've challenged in my timeline don't compute with the other known facts making it impossible to make a conclusive timeline.
Btw, the officer that told Adams to return to the building would IMO never have allowed her to run to the front of the building, if he was indeed locking down the building. Instead he would have told her to go back in the same way she came out (at the back) where he could have seen her go in, rather than risking she would not re-enter, out of his sight, at the front entrance.
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So!
The now-famous 'Stroud letter' includes the following------------------
(https://i.imgur.com/TNaLwGG.jpg)
And yet NONE of the corrections itemized here are reflected in the the published testimony of Ms Adams.
Genuine Question!
Can anyone point me to an instance----------other than Ms Vicki Adams -----------of the following happening with a WC witness?:
1. Witness WAIVES the right to read and sign their testimony transcript
2. Witness subsequently DOES make handwritten corrections to their testimony
3. These handwritten corrections ARE available for us to read
4. The handwritten corrections made by the witness are NOT however reflected in the published testimony
Can anyone even point to an instance of 2+3+4?
Thanking you! Thumb1:
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Now!
The 'corrected' Adams testimony transcript--------i.e. with handwritten corrections--------bears two stamps:
(https://i.imgur.com/7IKLB7V.jpg)
If I understand this correctly, the 1967 stamp cancels the 'TOP SECRET' classification, whereas the 2011 stamp declassifies the document fully.
Mr Barry Ernest notes wryly-----------------
"this differing transcription shows an additional declassification stamp, bearing a more recent date of February 9, 2011. Coincidentally, that is two months after existence of the Martha Joe Stroud letter was disclosed for the first time in the self-published edition of The Girl on the Stairs."
Let us note that Ms Adams told Mr Ernest that she did indeed receive a transcript of her testimony sent to her office, to which she wrote in some corrections. However, she was adamant that she did NOT testify to, or read/correct any testimony transcript including mention of, Messrs Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor after she and Ms Styles ran down the back stairs.
Ms Styles (now Butler) has backed up Ms Adams on this issue: no Mr Lovelady, no Mr Shelley
There is a solution to this, my friends------------------it's not pretty but it is perfectly feasible. And it does not make a liar of Ms Adams.........
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Nice graphic Jerry, and shows that Oswald didn't need to have his " entire torso" hanging out the window LOL and as I said Oswald just needed to stick his head slightly out. And from your graphic from that position he could see ALL of the sidewalk which is even more than I predicted. Thumb1:
Btw some people have no idea how a window works,
JohnM
I just came across this video on YouTube.
At 0.19 a camera comes up close to the actual 6th floor window and provides a view of the outside.
When it is nearly touching the glass of the window, you can see just a fragment of the dead end street running in front of the building and the sidewalk directly next to the TSBD is not visible at all.
Yet, John Mytton still claims that Oswald could have seen Norman and Jarman who were standing on the sidewalk directly below the window.... Wow!
Not only does this video show how wrong Mytton is, but also how deceptive Jerry Organ's drawing (which can be seen in reply 3 311) really is.
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Thanks Jerry for creating the following 3D computer generated graphic which proves beyond all doubt that Oswald with the open snipers nest window could practically see the entirety of the side walk in front of the Depository and unlike a self serving observation from a delusional vindictive Doofus, that Oswald required to have his entire torso hanging out the window to do so, what a Loser. LMFAO!
(https://i.postimg.cc/q72GpT0q/Jerry-s-6th-floor-view.jpg)
JohnM
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Thanks Jerry for creating the following 3D computer generated graphic which proves beyond all doubt that Oswald with the open snipers nest window could practically see the entirety of the side walk in front of the Depository and unlike a self serving observation from a delusional vindictive Doofus, that Oswald required to have his entire torso hanging out the window to do so, what a Loser. LMFAO!
(https://i.postimg.cc/q72GpT0q/Jerry-s-6th-floor-view.jpg)
JohnM
which proves beyond all doubt that Oswald with the open snipers nest window could practically see the entirety of the side walk in front of the Depository
Hilarious.... Don't believe what the video shows you, guys! Believe the drawing instead.......
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I just came across this video on YouTube.
At 0.19 a camera comes up close to the actual 6th floor window and provides a view of the outside.
When it is nearly touching the glass of the window, you can see just a fragment of the dead end street running in front of the building and the sidewalk directly next to the TSBD is not visible at all.
Yet, John Mytton still claims that Oswald could have seen Norman and Jarman who were standing on the sidewalk directly below the window.... Wow!
Not only does this video show how wrong Mytton is, but also how deceptive Jerry Organ's drawing (which can be seen in reply 3 311) really is.
John Mytton still claims that Oswald could have seen Norman and Jarman who were standing on the sidewalk directly below the window...
Lee told Fritz that he didn't know Jarman and Norman very well But he knew that one of them was called "Junior"...and the other was a little short guy whom he could point out to the interrogators... And yet Johnny thinks that Lee could recognize those two men by looking at the top of their heads.... :D
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The video doesn't show a view from outside the window
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Thanks Jerry for creating the following 3D computer generated graphic which proves beyond all doubt that Oswald with the open snipers nest window could practically see the entirety of the side walk in front of the Depository and unlike a self serving observation from a delusional vindictive Doofus, that Oswald required to have his entire torso hanging out the window to do so, what a Loser. LMFAO!
(https://i.postimg.cc/q72GpT0q/Jerry-s-6th-floor-view.jpg)
JohnM
Bonnie Ray Williams was still eating his lunch while Norman and Jarman were out front.
BRW left part of his meal on top of the boxes that formed the sniper's nest.
What was Bonnie Ray doing while all this was going on?
Maybe he held onto Oswald's belt as he leant out of the window (with his half eaten piece of chicken in the other hand)
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Bonnie Ray Williams was still eating his lunch while Norman and Jarman were out front.
BRW left part of his meal on top of the boxes that formed the sniper's nest.
What was Bonnie Ray doing while all this was going on?
Maybe he held onto Oswald's belt as he leant out of the window (with his half eaten piece of chicken in the other hand)
Maybe he held onto Oswald's belt as he leant out of the window...
Sergeant Hill managed seemingly without much effort to get his head and most of his upper torso out the window, so why would the svelte Oswald have any trouble poking his head out and don't forget that Brennan testified that Oswald was sitting sideways on the window sill?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3BzVfPP/Seargeant-Hill-1.jpg)
Btw I have publicly speculated for a number of years that Bonnie Ray while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Oswald in the Sniper's nest. And this undesired link with Oswald created some discrepancies in the recollections from the three black men in the windows directly below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jDYsz3b/powel-dillard.gif)
JohnM
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And yet Johnny thinks that Lee could recognize those two men by looking at the top of their heads.... :D
Seriously, that's yet another really stupid post you've made this week. They weren't disembodied heads but their heads were attached to bodies DUH!, with the characteristic differing body sizes and both were wearing unique identifying clothing and on top of that they were moving around together so Oswald had twice as much information.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjS9Bhh3/bodies-from-abovea.jpg)
Btw I've told you before, my name is John. Any more attempts of calling me by any other name than my real name will have a penalty.
Posts where members are antagonistically addressed by a name other than their Forum username, will be deleted.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2006.0.html
JohnM
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The video doesn't show a view from outside the window
Yep, it's not rocket science but it is a typical misrepresentation that we have come to expect, if you can't debate honestly then why bother at all and by lying what does it achieve?
Personally I know that occasionally I've been wrong but I admit my mistake and move on and I definitely don't let it fester like an open wound and then bring up fraudulent evidence weeks after the fact in a psychotic attempt to clear my name, what the heck is wrong with some people?
JohnM
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Sergeant Hill managed seemingly without much effort to get his head and most of his upper torso out the window, so why would the svelte Oswald have any trouble poking his head out and don't forget that Brennan testified that Oswald was sitting sideways on the window sill?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3BzVfPP/Seargeant-Hill-1.jpg)
That anyone would argue whether or not it's possible to lean out of a window and look down into the street is f"^king ridiculous.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there. But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.
Btw I have publicly speculated for a number of years that Bonnie Ray while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Oswald in the Sniper's nest. And this undesired link with Oswald created some discrepancies in the recollections from the three black men in the windows directly below.
One of the most striking features of this case are the lies of the 6th floor crew and other TSBD employees surrounding their movements at the time of the assassination - Williams, Norman, Jarman, Shelley, Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty all lie. It's a truly remarkable thing.
Each man lies for his own, very different reasons and it is possible to discern a pattern in the lying.
No-one lies more than Bonnie Ray Williams. He lies about every single aspect of his time on the 6th floor prior to the assassination and I believe he drags Norman and Jarman into his lies to cover for him (unsuccessfully) with the authorities. Williams does everything in his power to distance himself from the Sniper's Nest at the time of the assassination
I also believe Williams encounters the assassin in the Sniper's Nest and this is the reason for all the lying.
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Sergeant Hill managed seemingly without much effort to get his head and most of his upper torso out the window, so why would the svelte Oswald have any trouble poking his head out and don't forget that Brennan testified that Oswald was sitting sideways on the window sill?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3BzVfPP/Seargeant-Hill-1.jpg)
Btw I have publicly speculated for a number of years that Bonnie Ray while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Oswald in the Sniper's nest. And this undesired link with Oswald created some discrepancies in the recollections from the three black men in the windows directly below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jDYsz3b/powel-dillard.gif)
JohnM
Sergeant Hill managed seemingly without much effort to get his head and most of his upper torso out the window, so why would the svelte Oswald have any trouble poking his head out and don't forget that Brennan testified that Oswald was sitting sideways on the window sill?
Huh, hang on just a second. Wasn't it you who previously said this;
Thanks Jerry for creating the following 3D computer generated graphic which proves beyond all doubt that Oswald with the open snipers nest window could practically see the entirety of the side walk in front of the Depository and unlike a self serving observation from a delusional vindictive Doofus, that Oswald required to have his entire torso hanging out the window to do so, what a Loser. LMFAO!
JohnM
Who's the doofus now?
Seriously, that's yet another really stupid post you've made this week. They weren't disembodied heads but their heads were attached to bodies DUH!, with the characteristic differing body sizes and both were wearing unique identifying clothing and on top of that they were moving around together so Oswald had twice as much information.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjS9Bhh3/bodies-from-abovea.jpg)
The only way anybody could have had that view is by sticking his head and just about his entire torso out of the window, just like Hill is doing in the photo.
So, you want us to believe that the assassin, with the arrival of the motorcade imminent, was so bored that only minutes prior to the shooting and for no good reason he stuck his head and torso out of the window (risking being seen by witnesses), just to find out who was standing on the sidewalk just below the window. Really? Is that the kind of crappy arguments you need to resort to, to defend your pathetic little narrative?
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Yep, it's not rocket science but it is a typical misrepresentation that we have come to expect, if you can't debate honestly then why bother at all and by lying what does it achieve?
Personally I know that occasionally I've been wrong but I admit my mistake and move on and I definitely don't let it fester like an open wound and then bring up fraudulent evidence weeks after the fact in a psychotic attempt to clear my name, what the heck is wrong with some people?
JohnM
it is a typical misrepresentation
Says he, who dismisses a video that speaks for itself and instead wants everybody to believe a highly deceptive drawing instead
if you can't debate honestly then why bother at all and by lying what does it achieve?
Right back at ya....
Personally I know that occasionally I've been wrong but I admit my mistake
Yeah, right... :D
then bring up fraudulent evidence
What fraudulent evidence would that be?
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That anyone would argue whether or not it's possible to lean out of a window and look down into the street is f"^king ridiculous.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there. But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.
One of the most striking features of this case are the lies of the 6th floor crew and other TSBD employees surrounding their movements at the time of the assassination - Williams, Norman, Jarman, Shelley, Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty all lie. It's a truly remarkable thing.
Each man lies for his own, very different reasons and it is possible to discern a pattern in the lying.
No-one lies more than Bonnie Ray Williams. He lies about every single aspect of his time on the 6th floor prior to the assassination and I believe he drags Norman and Jarman into his lies to cover for him (unsuccessfully) with the authorities. Williams does everything in his power to distance himself from the Sniper's Nest at the time of the assassination
I also believe Williams encounters the assassin in the Sniper's Nest and this is the reason for all the lying.
Agreed, of course it's possible to lean out of a window or sit on the window sill and look straight down, only a Kook with an evil agenda would say otherwise and comparing Oswald to Hill who was most probably waving the hat in his right hand and was trying to be noticed from below is a worthless comparison. And from this position Oswald could have seen the two men disappear towards Houston and subsequently a few minutes later heard opening windows and the two men speaking on the floor below and thus knew that those two men were together and moving through the building during lunch.
As for Bonnie Ray, he ends up at the corresponding windows on the floor below so I feel he would investigate the same corner windows on the 6th floor, his testimony that he couldn't see over the boxes and left it at that, to me doesn't ring true and it's worth noting that at this point in Bonnie Ray's testimony he is asked if he's had any trouble with the law which indicates that the WC had similar doubts, now Bonnie Ray may have shouted out and after hearing no reply could be a reason he never went to the sniper's nest window and could be a reasonable explanation?
JohnM
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That anyone would argue whether or not it's possible to lean out of a window and look down into the street is f"^king ridiculous.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there. But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.
One of the most striking features of this case are the lies of the 6th floor crew and other TSBD employees surrounding their movements at the time of the assassination - Williams, Norman, Jarman, Shelley, Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty all lie. It's a truly remarkable thing.
Each man lies for his own, very different reasons and it is possible to discern a pattern in the lying.
No-one lies more than Bonnie Ray Williams. He lies about every single aspect of his time on the 6th floor prior to the assassination and I believe he drags Norman and Jarman into his lies to cover for him (unsuccessfully) with the authorities. Williams does everything in his power to distance himself from the Sniper's Nest at the time of the assassination
I also believe Williams encounters the assassin in the Sniper's Nest and this is the reason for all the lying.
You don't think Givens told the bigger lies?
Charles Givens gave completely different accounts between his initial statements and his Warren Commission testimony months later.
His original account placed Oswald on the first floor around noon the same as a few other witnesses.
We don't know why Givens changed his testimony but there's speculation that he was coerced.
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You don't think Givens told the bigger lies?
Charles Givens gave completely different accounts between his initial statements and his Warren Commission testimony months later.
His original account placed Oswald on the first floor around noon the same as a few other witnesses.
We don't know why Givens changed his testimony but there's speculation that he was coerced.
Iirc a number of eyewitnesses who were in the two elevators going down to lunch said Oswald was left behind on the upper floors.
JohnM
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Agreed, of course it's possible to lean out of a window or sit on the window sill and look straight down, only a Kook with an evil agenda would say otherwise and comparing Oswald to Hill who was most probably waving the hat in his right hand and was trying to be noticed from below is a worthless comparison. And from this position Oswald could have seen the two men disappear towards Houston and subsequently a few minutes later heard opening windows and the two men speaking on the floor below and thus knew that those two men were together and moving through the building during lunch.
As for Bonnie Ray, he ends up at the corresponding windows on the floor below so I feel he would investigate the same corner windows on the 6th floor, his testimony that he couldn't see over the boxes and left it at that, to me doesn't ring true and it's worth noting that at this point in Bonnie Ray's testimony he is asked if he's had any trouble with the law which indicates that the WC had similar doubts, now Bonnie Ray may have shouted out and after hearing no reply could be a reason he never went to the sniper's nest window and could be a reasonable explanation?
JohnM
Agreed, of course it's possible to lean out of a window or sit on the window sill and look straight down
Of course it's possible to lean out of a window and look straight down. Nobody ever said otherwise. The problem for your little fairytale story is that it's not only highly unlikely that an assassin, waiting for his victim, would even be remotely interested in who was standing on the sidewalk directly below him and to even suggest that the assassin did in fact stick out his head and torso only minutes before the arrival of the motorcade is just plain disingenuous.
Btw sitting on the window sill would mean that the head and shoulders would be higher than the opening of the window. To look straight down from behind the window and actually see a person is simply not physically possible.
And from this position Oswald could have seen the two men disappear towards Houston and subsequently a few minutes later heard opening windows and the two men speaking on the floor below and thus knew that those two men were together and moving through the building during lunch.
That anyone would argue whether or not it's possible to lean out of a window and look down into the street is f"^king ridiculous.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there.
But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.
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That anyone would argue whether or not it's possible to lean out of a window and look down into the street is f"^king ridiculous.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there. But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.
One of the most striking features of this case are the lies of the 6th floor crew and other TSBD employees surrounding their movements at the time of the assassination - Williams, Norman, Jarman, Shelley, Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty all lie. It's a truly remarkable thing.
Each man lies for his own, very different reasons and it is possible to discern a pattern in the lying.
No-one lies more than Bonnie Ray Williams. He lies about every single aspect of his time on the 6th floor prior to the assassination and I believe he drags Norman and Jarman into his lies to cover for him (unsuccessfully) with the authorities. Williams does everything in his power to distance himself from the Sniper's Nest at the time of the assassination
I also believe Williams encounters the assassin in the Sniper's Nest and this is the reason for all the lying.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there.
Really ?? ??? Do you actually believe that Lee Oswald IF HE HAD BEEN AT THE WINDOW?? Would look down at two negro employees who were standing next to the building six stories down and identify those two by looking at the top of their heads.
Lee told Captain Fritz that he didn't know those two employees who he saw walk past the Domino Room, and across the first floor, and yet some LNer dunderheads Irrationally believe that Lee was there at that window looking down at the top of their heads and he read their minds.... so he knew that they were planning to go around to the rear of the TSBD and they would walk past the Domino Room windows and across the loading dock and enter the first floor to take the west elevator up to the fifth floor.
And That, my friends is how Leeeee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( Boooo Hissss) knew that Jarman and Norman walked by the first floor lunchroom at 12:26.......
But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.
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You don't think Givens told the bigger lies?
Charles Givens gave completely different accounts between his initial statements and his Warren Commission testimony months later.
His original account placed Oswald on the first floor around noon the same as a few other witnesses.
We don't know why Givens changed his testimony but there's speculation that he was coerced.
To be honest, I don't think it's that relevant who was telling the "bigger lies".
If these were just ordinary working men going about their day why are they all lying - that's the real issue as far as the LN narrative is concerned.
Wiliams
Norman
Jarman
Givens
Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty
All of them lying.
I too think Givens had nothing to do with the events of that day but was coerced into giving false testimony.
If Oswald is the lone shooter why all the lies.
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I have publicly speculated for a number of years that Bonnie Ray while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Oswald in the Sniper's nest. And this undesired link with Oswald created some discrepancies in the recollections from the three black men in the windows directly below.
I have privately speculated for a number of years that Mr Williams while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Mr Oswald in the Sniper's nest. Mr Oswald bullied Mr Williams into putting on a plaid shirt. Mr Williams was so upset he aged some 40 years. This ageing process so affected his eyesight, hearing and general cognitive faculties that he didn't even notice Mr Oswald leaving the Sniper's nest, going over to the west end of the floor and picking up a rifle.
Thumb1:
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To be honest, I don't think it's that relevant who was telling the "bigger lies".
If these were just ordinary working men going about their day why are they all lying - that's the real issue as far as the LN narrative is concerned.
Wiliams
Norman
Jarman
Givens
Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty
All of them lying.
I too think Givens had nothing to do with the events of that day but was coerced into giving false testimony.
If Oswald is the lone shooter why all the lies.
That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?
I believe that Oswald was a lone gunman and any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation and as expected over time their recollections became contaminated, and after talking with each other they simply told the authorities what they think the authorities wanted to hear. These men were mostly non educated factory workers and expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive.
JohnM
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To be honest, I don't think it's that relevant who was telling the "bigger lies".
If these were just ordinary working men going about their day why are they all lying - that's the real issue as far as the LN narrative is concerned.
Wiliams
Norman
Jarman
Givens
Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty
All of them lying.
I too think Givens had nothing to do with the events of that day but was coerced into giving false testimony.
If Oswald is the lone shooter why all the lies.
Mr O'Meara, you have made it clear that you believe
-Mr Oswald was not the Sniper's Nest shooter
-there was no outside assassination team in the Depository for the motorcade
Do you believe the Sniper's Nest shooter was an employee?
If so, do you believe this shooter was Mr Jack Dougherty?
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That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?
I believe that Oswald was a lone gunman and any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation and as expected over time their recollections became contaminated, and after talking with each other they simply told the authorities what they think the authorities wanted to hear. These men were mostly non educated factory workers and expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive.
JohnM
"...any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation..."
Self preservation??
These are supposedly just guys being asked to recount what they saw and did around the time of the assassination. Where does "self preservation" come into it?
"That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?"
To get into the full scale of the lies these men tell would require a thread of its own but let's start with Bonnie Ray.
On the day of the assassination he is asked to recount what happened. This is a black man being questioned by the Dallas police in the early sixties. And he decides to tell an outright lie - that he went down after work, picked up his lunch and went back up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
This is an outright lie.
Not an oversight or a "misrememberance".
He is questioned the next day by the FBI (The FBI!!). He now remembers he went up to the 6th floor by himself but tells his next outright lie - that he was up there for about 3 minutes!
We now know that he was up there for at least 25 minutes.
His WC testimony reveals that the more BRW is questioned on this issue the longer he's up there:
"...when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m"
"I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12"
"Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe."
3 minutes, 5, 10 15, 20, and still he never gets to the actual time.
After being questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission he still won't tell the whole truth.
He also lies about where he has his lunch. At least 5 five witnesses state there was a half eaten piece of chicken in or on top of the SN but in his WC testimony BRW has himself sat between the third and fourth set of windows, some 30 ft away.
He even lies about having eaten all the chicken!!
Bonnie Ray lies constantly about being up on the 6th floor, how long he was up there and where he was sitting.
He is a young black man, in Dallas, in the early '60's, constantly lying to the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission.
We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the assassin he encountered is very much alive and is a direct threat to him.
"...expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive."
You're right John, anyone who is expecting a photo perfect memory from any witness is definitely being naive.
But that's not is what's happening. Williams outright lies on the day of the assassination and is then involved in a continuous series of lies thereafter.
Imagining Williams is being forgetful is truly naive.
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Mr O'Meara, you have made it clear that you believe
-Mr Oswald was not the Sniper's Nest shooter
-there was no outside assassination team in the Depository for the motorcade
Do you believe the Sniper's Nest shooter was an employee?
If so, do you believe this shooter was Mr Jack Dougherty?
Yes Alan, I do believe the shooter is Jack Dougherty.
-
"...any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation..."
Self preservation??
These are supposedly just guys being asked to recount what they saw and did around the time of the assassination. Where does "self preservation" come into it?
"That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?"
To get into the full scale of the lies these men tell would require a thread of its own but let's start with Bonnie Ray.
On the day of the assassination he is asked to recount what happened. This is a black man being questioned by the Dallas police in the early sixties. And he decides to tell an outright lie - that he went down after work, picked up his lunch and went back up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
This is an outright lie.
Not an oversight or a "misrememberance".
He is questioned the next day by the FBI (The FBI!!). He now remembers he went up to the 6th floor by himself but tells his next outright lie - that he was up there for about 3 minutes!
We now know that he was up there for at least 25 minutes.
His WC testimony reveals that the more BRW is questioned on this issue the longer he's up there:
"...when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m"
"I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12"
"Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe."
3 minutes, 5, 10 15, 20, and still he never gets to the actual time.
After being questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission he still won't tell the whole truth.
He also lies about where he has his lunch. At least 5 five witnesses state there was a half eaten piece of chicken in or on top of the SN but in his WC testimony BRW has himself sat between the third and fourth set of windows, some 30 ft away.
He even lies about having eaten all the chicken!!
Bonnie Ray lies constantly about being up on the 6th floor, how long he was up there and where he was sitting.
He is a young black man, in Dallas, in the early '60's, constantly lying to the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission.
We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the assassin he encountered is very much alive and is a direct threat to him.
"...expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive."
You're right John, anyone who is expecting a photo perfect memory from any witness is definitely being naive.
But that's not is what's happening. Williams outright lies on the day of the assassination and is then involved in a continuous series of lies thereafter.
Imagining Williams is being forgetful is truly naive.
You da man , Dan.....
We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
I hope you won't resent my disagreement, Dan.... But I don't believe BRW encountered any assassin ( however I'm not 100% sure about that.) I believe BRW encountered a "deputy sheriff" or a "security guard" (recall that Brennan said that the man with the rifle as wearing khaki colored clothing) That "deputy Sheriff" with a rifle, would be very intimidating to a young black man like BRW. If that "Sheriff" told BRW to get his ass off the sixth floor and forget that he had seen the "sheriff's deputy" there. You can bet that William's would have disappeared from the sixth floor like a snowflake in the Sahara. And he would never ever tell anybody about what he had seen.
I sincerely do not believe any shots were fired from the sixth floor .....In spite of the fact that Howard Brennan said that he saw the Khaki clad man STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window. There's little doubt that Brennan saw the man aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window..... In the excitement and mayhem of the shooting Brennan simply morphed a scene that he had seen a little earlier ( about the same time and place that Arnold Rowland saw the man with the rifle) The "security guard" who was dressed in khaki was using the scope on the rifle to see if his confederates were in place behind the stockade fence.
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Yes Alan, I do believe the shooter is Jack Dougherty.
Thank you, Mr O'Meara
-
But I don't believe BRW encountered any assassin ( however I'm not 100% sure about that.) I believe BRW encountered a "deputy sheriff" or a "security guard" (recall that Brennan said that the man with the rifle as wearing khaki colored clothing) That "deputy Sheriff" with a rifle, would be very intimidating to a young black man like BRW. If that "Sheriff" told BRW to get his ass off the sixth floor and forget that he had seen the "sheriff's deputy" there.
I agree with the basic scenario here: the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort.
However, I believe Mr Williams was NOT the only innocent worker to be kept off the floor. This would not have been left to luck. The 'decision' of none of the other employees to choose 6 is both odd and telling.
As for what the credentials-flashing man/men said? Instead of something threatening that would be apt to lead Mr Williams (& co.!) to believe something nasty was afoot (thereby raising the risk of an alert being raised), it would more likely have been a simple official instruction.
It was only when the assassination happened that Mr Williams------------and any other employees who had been kept off the floor-------------will have realized with horror that that man or those guys up on 6 were NOT there to protect Pres. Kennedy.
And if Mr Williams and/or Co. talked about all this afterwards? Not a problem. There was no attempt by those behind the assassination to have this pinned on a lone gunman acting alone.
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I agree with the basic scenario here: the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort.
However, I believe Mr Williams was NOT the only innocent worker to be kept off the floor. This would not have been left to luck. The 'decision' of none of the other employees to choose 6 is both odd and telling.
As for what the credentials-flashing man/men said? Instead of something threatening that would be apt to lead Mr Williams (& co.!) to believe something nasty was afoot (thereby raising the risk of an alert being raised), it would more likely have been a simple official instruction.
It was only when the assassination happened that Mr Williams------------and any other employees who had been kept off the floor-------------will have realized with horror that that man or those guys up on 6 were NOT there to protect Pres. Kennedy.
And if Mr Williams and/or Co. talked about all this afterwards? Not a problem. There was no attempt by those behind the assassination to have this pinned on a lone gunman acting alone.
Mr Ford, we have a minor disagreement...We agree on this point...... "the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort. " The conspirators would not have allowed anybody onto the sixth floor. They knew that Lee was supposed to be playing the part of an attempted assassin by shooting at the President from the sixth floor. So they surely would have barred anybody from that floor after 12:15....( about the time that BRW said that he left the sixth floor.) So did the "Deputy Sheriff" encounter BRW there on the sixth floor and ordered him to leave the sixth floor?
What assurance would the "Deputy" have had that BRW wouldn't have told anybody about being ordered off the sixth floor? IMO That "Deputy" would have had to have assurance that BRW wouldn't report that he had been ordered off the sixth floor and the "Deputy" had told him that nobody was allowed on the sixth floor.
Wouldn't the simple minded young kid have thought it odd that the deputy had chased him off of the sixth floor while allowing Lee Oswald onto the floor. ??? A question like this would surely have prompted BRW to ask questions.....Unless ....He was too frightened to ask the questions. ( I don't believe that Lee was on the sixth floor at the time that JFK was murdered but the official story has always been that Lee Oswald shot JFK from the sixth floor window.)
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Mr Ford, we have a minor disagreement...We agree on this point...... "the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort. " The conspirators would not have allowed anybody onto the sixth floor. They knew that Lee was supposed to be playing the part of an attempted assassin by shooting at the President from the sixth floor. So they surely would have barred anybody from that floor after 12:15....( about the time that BRW said that he left the sixth floor.) So did the "Deputy Sheriff" encounter BRW there on the sixth floor and ordered him to leave the sixth floor?
What assurance would the "Deputy" have had that BRW wouldn't have told anybody about being ordered off the sixth floor? IMO That "Deputy" would have had to have assurance that BRW wouldn't report that he had been ordered off the sixth floor and the "Deputy" had told him that nobody was allowed on the sixth floor.
Wouldn't the simple minded young kid have thought it odd that the deputy had chased him off of the sixth floor while allowing Lee Oswald onto the floor. ??? A question like this would surely have prompted BRW to ask questions.....Unless ....He was too frightened to ask the questions. ( I don't believe that Lee was on the sixth floor at the time that JFK was murdered but the official story has always been that Lee Oswald shot JFK from the sixth floor window.)
So your fantasy conspirators entered the TSBD, took over the 6th floor, set up the scene to frame Oswald, excluded anyone from entering that floor, but then they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone! HA HA HA. Keep them coming.
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So your fantasy conspirators entered the TSBD, took over the 6th floor, set up the scene to frame Oswald, excluded anyone from entering that floor, but then they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone! HA HA HA. Keep them coming.
they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone!
Psssst... Mr "Smith" Nobody saw Lee at the time JFK was passing the TSBD....
"They" weren't controlling Lee.... They allowed him to believe that this was his clever plot to infiltrate Cuba....Just as It was his plot to attempt to shoot Walker .....
Lee knew that if he was seen or photographed at a time in which he was allegedly shooting at JFK, he would be shot by Castro's firing squad if he managed to enter Cuba. Thus he remained out of sight.... Or do you know of a confirmed sighting of Lee Oswald at the time that JFK was passing by the TSBD?
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Mr Ford, we have a minor disagreement...We agree on this point...... "the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort. " The conspirators would not have allowed anybody onto the sixth floor.
Yep----------------and the absence of ANY of the floor-laying crew on the sixth floor for the motorcade is the dog that didn't bark here. Just as the decision of Messrs Norman & Jarman to watch the P. Parade from FIVE rather than SIX was NOT a stroke of luck for whoever was on 6
They knew that Lee was supposed to be playing the part of an attempted assassin by shooting at the President from the sixth floor.
Mr Oswald may have been involved, or framed for involvement, but I see no evidence he was set up by the assassination conspirators as the actual shooter
So they surely would have barred anybody from that floor after 12:15....( about the time that BRW said that he left the sixth floor.)
More to the point: the time Mr Rowland saw two men on 6. The floor was commandeered by this point
So did the "Deputy Sheriff" encounter BRW there on the sixth floor and ordered him to leave the sixth floor?
What assurance would the "Deputy" have had that BRW wouldn't have told anybody about being ordered off the sixth floor? IMO That "Deputy" would have had to have assurance that BRW wouldn't report that he had been ordered off the sixth floor and the "Deputy" had told him that nobody was allowed on the sixth floor.
Wouldn't the simple minded young kid have thought it odd that the deputy had chased him off of the sixth floor while allowing Lee Oswald onto the floor. ???
Mr Williams--------------even if he did get further than the stairway landing of 6---------------did not see Mr Oswald on 6. On this matter, Mr Oswald is an irrelevance!
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So your fantasy conspirators entered the TSBD, took over the 6th floor, set up the scene to frame Oswald, excluded anyone from entering that floor, but then they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone! HA HA HA. Keep them coming.
Mr Oswald, your fantasy shooter, was not actually being set up as the shooter. Therefore, he was indeed allowed to roam about the building------------and even go outside to watch the P. Parade Thumb1:
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Lee knew that if he was seen or photographed at a time in which he was allegedly shooting at JFK, he would be shot by Castro's firing squad if he managed to enter Cuba. Thus he remained out of sight....
Not according to Ford, Oswald went outside and stood with his work mates and watched the P. Parade and allowed himself to be possibly photographed and even filmed! Doh!
JohnM
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Not according to Ford, Oswald went outside and stood with his work mates and watched the P. Parade and allowed himself to be possibly photographed and even filmed! Doh!
JohnM
Indeed-------------Mr Cakebread and I see this very differently (he being still mesmerized, like you, by the lunchroom encounter fiction)
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Indeed-------------Mr Cakebread and I see this very differently (he being still mesmerized, like you, by the lunchroom encounter fiction)
C'mon Alan, when even Walt can see huge holes in your narrative maybe it's time to reassess your conclusions.
JohnM
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Now!
The 'corrected' Adams testimony transcript--------i.e. with handwritten corrections--------bears two stamps:
(https://i.imgur.com/7IKLB7V.jpg)
If I understand this correctly, the 1967 stamp cancels the 'TOP SECRET' classification, whereas the 2011 stamp declassifies the document fully.
Mr Barry Ernest notes wryly-----------------
"this differing transcription shows an additional declassification stamp, bearing a more recent date of February 9, 2011. Coincidentally, that is two months after existence of the Martha Joe Stroud letter was disclosed for the first time in the self-published edition of The Girl on the Stairs."
Let us note that Ms Adams told Mr Ernest that she did indeed receive a transcript of her testimony sent to her office, to which she wrote in some corrections. However, she was adamant that she did NOT testify to, or read/correct any testimony transcript including mention of, Messrs Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor after she and Ms Styles ran down the back stairs.
Ms Styles (now Butler) has backed up Ms Adams on this issue: no Mr Lovelady, no Mr Shelley
There is a solution to this, my friends------------------it's not pretty but it is perfectly feasible. And it does not make a liar of Ms Adams.........
Well!
It is a fact that not one of the corrections mentioned in the Stroud letter is actually reflected in the published testimony of Ms Adams.
One explanation would be bureaucratic inattention. Another, however, would be that the point of getting Ms Adams to make handwritten corrections was NOT to get her testimony correct but---------------to get from her authentic handwritten corrections that could used as a reference.
On this latter scenario:
1. Ms Adams is given an Honest Transcript of her testimony to read & correct: she does so, writing in corrections where she sees fit
2. An Enhanced Transcript---------containing interpolated references to Messrs Shelley & Lovelady----------has meanwhile been quietly prepared
3. Someone other than Ms Adams reproduces (both as to substance and handwriting) her corrections (from the Honest Transcript) on the Enhanced Transcript.
Not at all difficult to do convincingly.
But why go to all this trouble? Insurance, in case this most troublesome and dangerous of witnesses is so shocked when she reads her published testimony that she goes public with a claim that she never said or subsequently OK'd any of the Lovelady-Shelley stuff. The Enhanced Transcript (with 'her' handwritten corrections) can be released to discredit her.
Thankfully, it doesn't come to that----------------though a version of this does come to pass when, decades later, Mr Ernest goes public with the Stroud letter. Two months later, in 2011, the Enhanced Transcript is fully declassified. Some coincidence!
Interestingly, the original steno tapes from the day on which Ms Adams gave her testimony are inexplicably NOT in the archive.......................
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C'mon Alan, when even Walt can see huge holes in your narrative maybe it's time to reassess your conclusions.
JohnM
I like Mr Cakebread, but he refuses to let new evidence challenge narratives he developed years ago. Who does that remind me of, Mr Mytton? ;)
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C'mon Alan, when even Walt can see huge holes in your narrative maybe it's time to reassess your conclusions.
JohnM
Just in case you missed it:
"...any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation..."
Self preservation??
These are supposedly just guys being asked to recount what they saw and did around the time of the assassination. Where does "self preservation" come into it?
"That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?"
To get into the full scale of the lies these men tell would require a thread of its own but let's start with Bonnie Ray.
On the day of the assassination he is asked to recount what happened. This is a black man being questioned by the Dallas police in the early sixties. And he decides to tell an outright lie - that he went down after work, picked up his lunch and went back up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
This is an outright lie.
Not an oversight or a "misrememberance".
He is questioned the next day by the FBI (The FBI!!). He now remembers he went up to the 6th floor by himself but tells his next outright lie - that he was up there for about 3 minutes!
We now know that he was up there for at least 25 minutes.
His WC testimony reveals that the more BRW is questioned on this issue the longer he's up there:
"...when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m"
"I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12"
"Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe."
3 minutes, 5, 10 15, 20, and still he never gets to the actual time.
After being questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission he still won't tell the whole truth.
He also lies about where he has his lunch. At least 5 five witnesses state there was a half eaten piece of chicken in or on top of the SN but in his WC testimony BRW has himself sat between the third and fourth set of windows, some 30 ft away.
He even lies about having eaten all the chicken!!
Bonnie Ray lies constantly about being up on the 6th floor, how long he was up there and where he was sitting.
He is a young black man, in Dallas, in the early '60's, constantly lying to the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission.
We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the assassin he encountered is very much alive and is a direct threat to him.
"...expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive."
You're right John, anyone who is expecting a photo perfect memory from any witness is definitely being naive.
But that's not is what's happening. Williams outright lies on the day of the assassination and is then involved in a continuous series of lies thereafter.
Imagining Williams is being forgetful is truly naive.
"The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?"
Other highlights include:
Both Shelley and Lovelady lie in their WC testimonies about how long it took for Baker to arrive at the TSBD steps - 3 minutes - even though both men are shown in Darnell at the bottom of the TSBD steps as Baker arrives.
Both men 'lie by omission' in their same day statements by leaving out their movements down towards the railroad tracks and entering the TSBD by the west door. Both deliberately give the impression they re-enter the TSBD immediately after the assassination through the front door.
Dougherty lies about being on the 5th floor at the same time as Williams, Jarman and Norman - when the assassination occurs.
He also lies with his ridiculous story about taking the elevator down to the first floor after the shooting, talking with Eddie Piper, then returning to the 6th floor.
And on and on...
These are not moments of forgetfulness. They are deliberate attempts to distort their movements around the time of the assassination.
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Both Shelley and Lovelady lie in their WC testimonies about how long it took for Baker to arrive at the TSBD steps - 3 minutes - even though both men are shown in Darnell at the bottom of the TSBD steps as Baker arrives.
Where is Mr Shelley shown at the bottom of the steps in Darnell?
Both men 'lie by omission' in their same day statements by leaving out their movements down towards the railroad tracks and entering the TSBD by the west door. Both deliberately give the impression they re-enter the TSBD immediately after the assassination through the front door.
Why assume the same-day statements are lying and the later ones are honest?
Dougherty lies about being on the 5th floor at the same time as Williams, Jarman and Norman - when the assassination occurs.
How do we know this is a lie?
He also lies with his ridiculous story about taking the elevator down to the first floor after the shooting, talking with Eddie Piper, then returning to the 6th floor.
And Mr Piper's own claimed vantage point for the motorcade--------------thick, frosted windows at the front of the first floor------------------is a crock!
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Sylvia Meagher: The Curious Testimony of Mr [Charles] Givens
November 22, 1963
Within an hour or two, Givens was escorted to the police headquarters, where he was questioned and where he executed an affidavit stating that he had left the sixth floor at about 11:30 a.m., had gone to the washroom at noon, had taken his lunch period, and had gone to a parking lot to visit with a friend employed there (CE 2003, page 27). Givens’ affidavit said nothing about a return to the sixth floor for cigarettes or an encounter there with Oswald.
Later that day Givens was interviewed by FBI agents Griffen and Odum. He gave the same story as in the affidavit but added one additional piece of information — that at 11:50 a.m. he had seen Oswald reading a paper in the “domino room” on the first floor (CD 5, page 329).
November 23, 1963
Bonnie Ray Williams, another Book Depository employee, in an interview by FBI agents Griffen and Odum, described a race between two elevators on November 22nd at about 11:30 a.m. in which he, Givens, and others participated. On the way down, they had seen Oswald on the fifth floor. Williams had returned to the sixth floor at about noon and had seen no one there (CD 5, page 330).
December 9, 1963
The FBI Summary Report (withheld from the public until mid–1966, when certain excerpts were published in the book Inquest, raising a furore of doubt about the Warren Report) to President Johnson stated that Oswald had been observed on the fifth floor between 11:30 a.m. and noon and that during that period of time he had asked Givens, who was in an elevator, to close the gates when he got off so that the elevator could be summoned (CD 1, page 6). The FBI Summary Report omits Givens’ statement to the two FBI agents on the day of the assassination that he had seen Oswald reading a paper in the domino room at 11:50.
February 25, 1964
Warren Commission lawyers Joseph Ball and David Belin complete a first joint report, summarizing the evidence known by that date, and note discrepancies as to the time of Givens’ departure (and elevator race) from the sixth floor — 11:35 as against 11:40 or 11:45 a.m. Ball and Belin also note that Givens saw Oswald at 11:50 a.m. in the domino room and that three other witnesses also place Oswald on the first floor — William Shelley, at about 11:50 a.m.; Eddie Piper, at noon; and Mrs. Carolyn Arnold, who believed she had seen Oswald near the front door of the Book Depository at about 12:15 p.m. (Ball/Belin memorandum of Feb. 25, 1964, pages 101, 105–107, 110).
March 18, 1964
Givens, in an affidavit furnished by him to FBI agents Trettis and Robertson, states that when President Kennedy was shot, he was standing at the corner of Record and Elm Streets. “I returned to the Depository Building, and was told by a Dallas policeman that I could not enter the building. About an hour later I went to the Dallas Police Department and was questioned by the police for about 45 minutes.” (CE 1381, page 36.) Wearisome though it is, it must again be pointed out that there was no mention during the 45–minute interrogation of the cigarettes left and retrieved or of seeing Oswald on the sixth floor, nor were these alleged circumstances hinted at in the March, 1964, affidavit to the FBI, four months after the assassination.
April 8, 1964
Charles Givens gives sworn testimony to the Warren Commission in a deposition taken by lawyer David Belin, with no one else present except the court reporter. Now, for the first time, Givens tells the story (later embodied in the Warren Report) about the cigarettes forgotten on the sixth floor and the encounter with Oswald (6H 345–356, WR 143). Belin should have been fully aware that Givens had told a completely different story to the FBI and the police on the day of the assassination, and subsequently to the Secret Service and the FBI, since Belin had co–authored the report which discussed Givens’ accounts of his movements in considerable detail.
But Belin did not challenge Givens’ new story nor place on record that on several earlier occasions Givens had sworn to a completely different account of his movements and actions on the day of the assassination. Indeed, in one oblique question, he asked, “Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around 11:50 … that morning?” (6H 354). Givens replied, “No, sir,” which meant either that he was giving Belin a false response or that the two FBI agents who had interviewed him on Nov. 22 had invented Givens’ reported statement that he had seen Oswald in the domino room at 11:50 a.m. Yet neither Givens nor the FBI agents were challenged or even queried in an attempt to determine which story was true and which was false.
September 20, 1964
The Warren Report was released, with its “forgotten cigarettes” version of Givens’ activities. It contained no indication, explicit or implicit, of Givens’ original story, which had placed Oswald in the domino room at 11:50, nor did it mention that another witness had also seen Oswald on the first floor at precisely that time while still other witnesses saw him still on the first floor at noon and at about 12:15 p.m.
http://22november1963.org.uk/meagher-the-curious-testimony-of-mr-givens
Why did investigators work so hard to erase or omit witness accounts that placed Oswald on the first floor or in the the lunch room around noon on November 22, 1963?
Why does it matter that he might've waited until 12:15 or 12:20 to go to the sixth floor?
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Mr. Ball. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?
Mr. Dougherty. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. Ball. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?
Mr. Dougherty. That's right
This is indeed what Mr Dougherty told Det. Johnson, and I believe it's exactly what happened------------except for one teeny tiny detail Mr Dougherty is leaving out:
The reason Mr Dougherty went down to the fifth floor as soon as he arrived on the sixth floor (!) is that upon arrival on the sixth floor he was told by some credentials-flashing person or persons the floor was off limits until the P. Parade had passed.
Taking this in good faith, Mr Dougherty went down to the fifth floor.
I believe Mr Dougherty was NOT the only employee to have this experience on the sixth floor, and this explains the curious fact that NO employee ended up watching the P. Parade from the sixth floor
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Mr. Ball. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?
Mr. Dougherty. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. Ball. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?
Mr. Dougherty. That's right
This is indeed what Mr Dougherty told Det. Johnson, and I believe it's exactly what happened------------except for one teeny tiny detail Mr Dougherty is leaving out:
The reason Mr Dougherty went down to the fifth floor as soon as he arrived on the sixth floor (!) is that upon arrival on the sixth floor he was told by some credentials-flashing person or persons the floor was off limits until the P. Parade had passed.
Taking this in good faith, Mr Dougherty went down to the fifth floor.
I believe Mr Dougherty was NOT the only employee to have this experience on the sixth floor, and this explains the curious fact that NO employee ended up watching the P. Parade from the sixth floor
I've always questioned WHY Jack Dougherty went to the sixth floor and then immediately left the sixth floor and went to the fifth floor??? He apparently had no books to gather on either floor.....so what was he doing?
You may be right, Mr Ford..... But Jack Dougherty's statements and testimony are so convoluted I get the impression that he was a scatter brain, so it's difficult to interpret what was going on.
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MT: Let me put it this way:
Barry Ernst say's that she signed it and that it's her handwriting on the document. From what I see, the handwriting for "there" was made by the same had as the signature on the last page. As such, there is no reason not assign "there" and the signature and the other writing as Adams'. If you want to argue that it's not Adams' writing on that page, or any other, you're free to do so. But don't think anyone else is going to notice unless you can provide any evidence.
Remember this?
MW: And finally it should be noted that on 04/04/64 WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert wrote a remarkable memo in which he refered to a recent staff meeting in which he had objected to what he called "editing of the transcripts of depositions". In the same memo he also complains about the practice of waiving signatures by the witnesses and advocates to have witnesses read and sign the transcript even if it contains errors, which according to him can later be rectified.
Now, isn't it just remarkable that Victoria Adams initially waived signing her testimony, as that would save her from having to return to sign it, only to be confronted by somebody at work a few days later who insisted she would sign after all. And isn't it just as remarkable that Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that she never testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?
Btw, How do you reconcile these two statements?;
Nothing needs to be reconciled. Her signature is on the transcript, and her writing (it matches the signature) is on the page in question. That is, she accepted what's in the transcript, and what's on that specific page. In light of this, any internal policy arguments within the WC staff do not matter. Any policy changes made by the WC staff as a result of those arguments do not matter. Whatever Adams herself may have initially decided to do does not matter. In the end, she signed off on it and she put her correction on the page with the Shelley/Lovelady bit. Or, as I previously said, "Adams handwritten corrections and signature on the original transcript trump any objection that you or Ernst can come up with." All the innuendo and insinuation that you can muster won't change that one bit."
Barry Ernst say's that she signed it and that it's her handwriting on the document.
Amazing, isn't it? You rely on Ernest for confirming that Adams signed the document, yet at the same time you dismiss whatever else Adams told Ernest....
The only issues I've taken with Adams' WC testimony is the amount of time she put between the last shot and her proceeding to the stairs. The only problem I see with what Ernest said she told him was the amount of initial delay and whether or not she remembered seeing Shelley and Lovelady. How that gets turned into "whatever else Adams told Ernest" is a mystery. Or, maybe the better way to say it is that you've misrepresented what I've already said.
If she signed off on it, that's what she said that she said.
Sure about that? Perhaps you should have a closer look at WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert's memo.....
If any of the WC staff attorneys edited a deposition, that does not prove or demonstrate that they edited all of them. Nor does it demonstrate or prove that they edited Adams' testimony without her knowledge or consent. Again, the presence of her writing on the page with her recollection of seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor proves that she read the page--and tried to correct something in it. And the lack of any other editing on the page demonstrates that she did not see an issue with the inccusion of her Lovelady-Shelley recollection. And the combination of her edit on that page along with her signature at the end of the transcript shows that she signed off on both. Including the Shelley-Lovelady bit.
In the face of this, any argument based on "well, Hubert wrote...." or "well, Adams didn't remember saying...." is simply pointless.
And you seem to be struggling to make up your mind about Dorothy Garner as well;
First you dismiss what Garner said by qualifying a letter from the office of a United States Attorney to the Chief Counsel of a Presidential Commission as "hearsay"
Then you have the ladies (by which I pressume you mean Adams, Styles and Garner) nowhere near the stairs, implying that Garner made up what she told Stroud (and Barry Ernest)
And then you have Garner simply misinterpreting what she saw, when she was at the stairs;
So, what is it? Was Garner not near the stairs? Or was she near the stairs but lied to Stroud, or did Stroud perhaps lie to Rankin? Or was she near the stairs and saw Truly coming down and somehow figured he was coming up?
I'm not the one struggling here. I pointed out that Truly said he encountered a DPD officer on the 4th floor as he was descending from the roof. I posited that Garner could have seen some part of this, then later associated the encounter that she saw with the initial Truly/Baker ascent when she later heard about it. I've also said that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor office window minutes rather than seconds after the last shot. IIRC, that's what Styles herself has said.
I said nothing about Garner's location at any time. You're trying so hard to create some kind of gotcha that you confused yourself.
Plus, there is this:
First you dismiss what Garner said by qualifying a letter from the office of a United States Attorney to the Chief Counsel of a Presidential Commission as "hearsay"
That's because it is hearsay, by definition.
And how about this beauty;
MT: For my "alternative timeline" to work, all I need are two things:
1.) For Adams to have left later than she remembered (IIRC, Styles thought it was minutes, not seconds, after the last shot was fired)
2.) for Garner to have misinterpreted seeing a later pairing of Truly and a DPD officer with the original Truly/Baker stairmaster episode.
Only to say a little bit later;
MT:I don't think you can really make a simple timeline out of all this.
So, on the one hand you claim your timeline would work, and on the other hand you say you can't make a simple timeline. Pray tell, how can a timeline, you say you can't make, still work?
You no doubt notice the quotation marks around the words "alternative timeline". I used those for two reasons. First, I was quoting what you said. Second, I used the quotes because I wouldn't call what I was doing a "timeline", "alternative" or not. In a roundabout way, you stuffed your own words into my mouth, then tried to cast shade what what I'd said.. except it was you who'd said it! I figure this counts as another instance where you've misrepresented me. Or maybe you misrepresented yourself this time.
And, no, I don't think the data is anywhere near complete enough to create a simple timeline that includes everyone. However, the evidence creates constraints that limit when certain events in witness statements could have occurred. That being said, the police activity around the TSBD in the shooting's aftermath can be accounted for relatively well if imperfectly. In part, that's because any number of cops involved at the scene have been interviewed over the years. More importantly, we have the radio logs as a near-real time reference.
Apart from the obvious fact that you are making a number of erroneous assumptions - the main one being that the officer who told Adams to return to the building was Harkness - the real reason why you can't make a simple timeline is that the parts you've challenged in my timeline don't compute with the other known facts making it impossible to make a conclusive timeline.
Btw, the officer that told Adams to return to the building would IMO never have allowed her to run to the front of the building, if he was indeed locking down the building. Instead he would have told her to go back in the same way she came out (at the back) where he could have seen her go in, rather than risking she would not re-enter, out of his sight, at the front entrance.
I never assumed that Harkness was the officer who ordered Adams and Styles back to the building, nor have I claimed so. Once again, you've misrepresented what I've said.
As for your take on the officer, I don't get that he would have needed her to actually go in, just that she stayed on the premises. He doesn't necessarily need to keep them inside; in fact, it might be a bad idea if there's an armed, desperate man inside. He just wanted them to remain at the facility.
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And what conclusion might you have reached if you had factored in Ms Adams' mention of seeing Mr Joe Molina & Ms Avery Davis in front of the building when she arrived there?
How would Molina or Davis factor into it one way or the other?
Oh but these are two very different things, Mr Todd. An officer whose job is to seal the building from the rear will not be standing by the railway tracks! Proof that he didn't care about who was coming in or out of the building is the fact that he let Ms Adams and Ms Styles NOT re-enter the building.
Adams never said exactly where the officer was standing WRT the tracks. And, immediately West of the TSBD, there are plenty of railroad tracks. The first set you'd run into were the spur that serves the building directly. Those are a few feet from the building itself. Past the TSBD spur, there's another spur maybe 15' - 20' away. There are a couple of other spurs that run through the parking lot area. If anything, it would be harder to stand near the rear of TSBD without being near railroad tracks that it would to be stand near them.
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Nothing needs to be reconciled. Her signature is on the transcript, and her writing (it matches the signature) is on the page in question. That is, she accepted what's in the transcript, and what's on that specific page. In light of this, any internal policy arguments within the WC staff do not matter. Any policy changes made by the WC staff as a result of those arguments do not matter. Whatever Adams herself may have initially decided to do does not matter. In the end, she signed off on it and she put her correction on the page with the Shelley/Lovelady bit. Or, as I previously said, "Adams handwritten corrections and signature on the original transcript trump any objection that you or Ernst can come up with." All the innuendo and insinuation that you can muster won't change that one bit."
The only issues I've taken with Adams' WC testimony is the amount of time she put between the last shot and her proceeding to the stairs. The only problem I see with what Ernest said she told him was the amount of initial delay and whether or not she remembered seeing Shelley and Lovelady. How that gets turned into "whatever else Adams told Ernest" is a mystery. Or, maybe the better way to say it is that you've misrepresented what I've already said.
If any of the WC staff attorneys edited a deposition, that does not prove or demonstrate that they edited all of them. Nor does it demonstrate or prove that they edited Adams' testimony without her knowledge or consent. Again, the presence of her writing on the page with her recollection of seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor proves that she read the page--and tried to correct something in it. And the lack of any other editing on the page demonstrates that she did not see an issue with the inccusion of her Lovelady-Shelley recollection. And the combination of her edit on that page along with her signature at the end of the transcript shows that she signed off on both. Including the Shelley-Lovelady bit.
In the face of this, any argument based on "well, Hubert wrote...." or "well, Adams didn't remember saying...." is simply pointless.
I'm not the one struggling here. I pointed out that Truly said he encountered a DPD officer on the 4th floor as he was descending from the roof. I posited that Garner could have seen some part of this, then later associated the encounter that she saw with the initial Truly/Baker ascent when she later heard about it. I've also said that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor office window minutes rather than seconds after the last shot. IIRC, that's what Styles herself has said.
I said nothing about Garner's location at any time. You're trying so hard to create some kind of gotcha that you confused yourself.
That's because it is hearsay, by definition.
You no doubt notice the quotation marks around the words "alternative timeline". I used those for two reasons. First, I was quoting what you said. Second, I used the quotes because I wouldn't call what I was doing a "timeline", "alternative" or not. In a roundabout way, you stuffed your own words into my mouth, then tried to cast shade what what I'd said.. except it was you who'd said it! I figure this counts as another instance where you've misrepresented me. Or maybe you misrepresented yourself this time.
And, no, I don't think the data is anywhere near complete enough to create a simple timeline that includes everyone. However, the evidence creates constraints that limit when certain events in witness statements could have occurred. That being said, the police activity around the TSBD in the shooting's aftermath can be accounted for relatively well if imperfectly. In part, that's because any number of cops involved at the scene have been interviewed over the years. More importantly, we have the radio logs as a near-real time reference.
I never assumed that Harkness was the officer who ordered Adams and Styles back to the building, nor have I claimed so. Once again, you've misrepresented what I've said.
As for your take on the officer, I don't get that he would have needed her to actually go in, just that she stayed on the premises. He doesn't necessarily need to keep them inside; in fact, it might be a bad idea if there's an armed, desperate man inside. He just wanted them to remain at the facility.
So many words, and still nothing new or of any substance. Only denials, "justifications" and false claims of misrepresentation.
I've tried to put all the possible scenarios you've dreamed up in a timeline and none of them do even come close to working.
For example, you argue that Adams and Styles were ordered back into the building by a police officer, which you claim - without any evidence - was part of the team locking the back of the building down. You then argue that Harkness was the first officer to cover the back of the building.
Harkness' 12:36 transmission is the earliest mention in the record that there is even an intent to "seal off," "lock down," "cordon off," "ring," and/or otherwise surround the building with officers. If you didn't get it from Harkness, then where did you get the idea that the building was locked down at 12:36?
"Irrelevant," my tuchus! Adams encounter with the officer behind the TSBD indicates that she and Styles didn't leave the building until your "lockdown" was already in the process of forming. And Harkness is the first officer to cover that part of the building. So, the two women can't leave the building until some point after Harkness goes around to the back.
Combined this would mean that the first time Adams and Styles could have encountered an officer telling them to go back into the building would be well after 12:36.
The problem with that is that the evidence shows that Shelley and Lovelady went back into the building some 5 minutes after the shooting. If Adams saw them at the bottom of the stairs at 12:35 (quod non), then there is no way that she would run into a cop locking down the building well after 12:36.
Making comments about parts of the timeline is one thing, making them fit into a working timeline is something else.
You might not like it, but events don't happen in a vacuum. There is a sequence of events! Whenever you make a claim, you need to match it with all the other known facts, which is exactly where are your arguments and cherry picking fail miserably.
Get back to me when you have anything more than just opinions to offer.
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How would Molina or Davis factor into it one way or the other?
If you want to have Ms Adams not leaving the fourth floor until several minutes after the shooting, then you need to keep Mr Molina and Ms Davis front of house until an even longer several minutes after the shooting. Good luck reconciling that need of yours with what Mr Molina and Ms Davis themselves have to say! Thumb1:
Adams never said exactly where the officer was standing WRT the tracks. And, immediately West of the TSBD, there are plenty of railroad tracks. The first set you'd run into were the spur that serves the building directly. Those are a few feet from the building itself. Past the TSBD spur, there's another spur maybe 15' - 20' away. There are a couple of other spurs that run through the parking lot area. If anything, it would be harder to stand near the rear of TSBD without being near railroad tracks that it would to be stand near them.
Pure gaslighting waffle, Mr Todd. Fact is, the officer was not preventing egress from and ingress into the building. The linchpin of your timeline accordingly melts
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As for your take on the officer, I don't get that he would have needed her to actually go in, just that she stayed on the premises. He doesn't necessarily need to keep them inside; in fact, it might be a bad idea if there's an armed, desperate man inside.
So he sends them back to the building but forgets to mention they shouldn't go back inside! :D
He just wanted them to remain at the facility.
Well he can't have wanted that very much, can he?---------------he lets them walk around the building, where they are free to proceed to the street!
Sorry, Mr Todd, but this officer just isn't doing what you need him do here
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Nothing needs to be reconciled. Her signature is on the transcript, and her writing (it matches the signature) is on the page in question.
Her handwriting could easily have been copied (as to style and substance) from a document she actually did write on
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I'm not the one struggling here. I pointed out that Truly said he encountered a DPD officer on the 4th floor as he was descending from the roof. I posited that Garner could have seen some part of this, then later associated the encounter that she saw with the initial Truly/Baker ascent when she later heard about it.
Actually, Mr Todd, you are the one struggling. Your UP-is-DOWN solution here is laughably strained
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If you want to have Ms Adams not leaving the fourth floor until several minutes after the shooting, then you need to keep Mr Molina and Ms Davis front of house until an even longer several minutes after the shooting. Good luck reconciling that need of yours with what Mr Molina and Ms Davis themselves have to say! Thumb1:
Pure gaslighting waffle, Mr Todd. Fact is, the officer was not preventing egress from and ingress into the building. The linchpin of your timeline accordingly melts
Molina and Davis aren't corroborating an Adam's early departure. That is all you believing they did.
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Molina and Davis aren't corroborating an Adam's early departure. That is all you believing they did.
Oh, so you believe that Mr Molina and Ms Davis both give to understand that they lingered at the front of the building for at least five minutes? Cite, please! Thumb1:
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Oh, so you believe that Mr Molina and Ms Davis both give to understand that they lingered at the front of the building for at least five minutes? Cite, please! Thumb1:
It's up to you to cite where Molina and/or Davis said they were at any given time, since you brought them up. Don't be a Caprio.
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Oh, so you believe that Mr Molina and Ms Davis both give to understand that they lingered at the front of the building for at least five minutes? Cite, please! Thumb1:
You stated Molina and Davis prove the early departure of Adams. Feel free to expound on that statement.
Or how about just read its all in their statements.
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Officer Barnett was stood at the intersection of Elm and Houston a few yards from the TSBD.
On hearing the shots he ran immediately around the back of the building and would have been in that position seconds after the shooting.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. Barnett.
I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. Liebeler.
Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler.
There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett.
It is around the corner from Houston Street.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you go in the building?
Mr. Barnett.
No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.
I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down .
Mr. Liebeler.
Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building?
Mr. Barnett.
That's right.
Mr. Liebeler.
So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett.
I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. Barnett.
Not a thing.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett.
I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
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Officer Barnett was stood at the intersection of Elm and Houston a few yards from the TSBD.
On hearing the shots he ran immediately around the back of the building and would have been in that position seconds after the shooting.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. Barnett.
I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. Liebeler.
Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler.
There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. Barnett.
It is around the corner from Houston Street.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you go in the building?
Mr. Barnett.
No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.
I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down .
Mr. Liebeler.
Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building?
Mr. Barnett.
That's right.
Mr. Liebeler.
So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett.
I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. Barnett.
Not a thing.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett.
I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett.
I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
Conclusive proof that there were officers in the railway yard west of the TSBD well before the building was sealed off.
One of these officers could easily be, and probably was, the one who told Adams to return to the building.
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It's up to you to cite where Molina and/or Davis said they were at any given time, since you brought them up.
It would be my pleasure, Mr Todd!
From Mr Molina's HSCA interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/zE2xxqZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dn0FKV2.jpg)
From Ms Avery Davis' 20 March '64 FBI Interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/5UnIUSq.jpg)
Now, Mr Todd---------------over to you with your evidence that Mr Molina and Ms Davis lingered front of house for at least five minutes! Whatcha got? I hope it's better than the cop-at-railroads 'clincher' that has just blown up in your face! Thumb1:
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You stated Molina and Davis prove the early departure of Adams. Feel free to expound on that statement.
It would be my pleasure, Mr Nessan!
From Mr Molina's HSCA interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/zE2xxqZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dn0FKV2.jpg)
From Ms Avery Davis' 20 March '64 FBI Interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/5UnIUSq.jpg)
Now, Mr Nessan---------------over to you with your evidence that Mr Molina and Ms Davis lingered front of house for at least five minutes! Whatcha got? Thumb1:
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Let's recap
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately
<>
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Prior to her testimony, Adams told the investigators;
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;
"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"
and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"
In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot
And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;
"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.
And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noisy stairs.
Mitch Todd's claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor until at least 12:36, when police began locking down the building and an officer told Adams to return to the building is destroyed by the testimony of Officer Barnett, who ran to the back of the building, after hearing the shots and saw officers searching the railroad cars, which means there were officers in the railway yard prior to the building being locked down.
Todd's claim also does not match with Shelley's testimony who said that before he and Lovelady re-entered the TSBD he saw cars being searched in the railway area, clearly indicating police activity very soon after the shots were fire.
And then we have Adams saying in her testimony;
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
How in the world can Adams see Molina and Davis when they re-entered the building shortly after the shots?
-
It would be my pleasure, Mr Todd!
From Mr Molina's HSCA interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/zE2xxqZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dn0FKV2.jpg)
From Ms Avery Davis' 20 March '64 FBI Interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/5UnIUSq.jpg)
Now, Mr Todd---------------over to you with your evidence that Mr Molina and Ms Davis lingered front of house for at least five minutes! Whatcha got? I hope it's better than the cop-at-railroads 'clincher' that has just blown up in your face! Thumb1:
Exactly how long did Molina say it was between the time of the last shot to the time he left for grassy knoll?
He didn't really say.
Exactly how long was it before Molina returned to the front of the Depository from the GK?
He didn't say.
Did Molina go straight into the Depository after returning from the GK, or does he linger before going in?
He doesn't really say.
Exactly where in this did Molina say he saw Adams? Was it before he left for the GK? while he was going there? When he was returning? After he returned?
He never said where, when, or even if he ran into her.
His HSCA statements simply don't contain enough information to determine exactly where he was at any given point in the minutes after the assassination. His WC statement is no better.
As for Davis, if you take her statement at face value, she would have been back in the TSBD even before Adams and Styles would have reached the first floor. So either she comes back out later, or spends more time in front of the building that her FBI statement would seem to imply.
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Exactly how long did Molina say it was between the time of the last shot to the time he left for grassy knoll?
He didn't really say.
Except... he did: "When everybody started to get up"
Exactly how long was it before Molina returned to the front of the Depository from the GK?
He didn't say.
Except... he did: he makes it clear that he DIDN'T return to the front of the Depository, he went inside via a side door. It is evident that you were completely unaware of the contents of Mr Molina's HSCA interview when you put together your timeline
Did Molina go straight into the Depository after returning from the GK, or does he linger before going in?
He doesn't really say.
Who cares? He is nowhere near the front of the Depository, which is where Ms Adams has seen him
Exactly where in this did Molina say he saw Adams? Was it before he left for the GK? while he was going there? When he was returning? After he returned?
He never said where, when, or even if he ran into her.
Who cares? She correctly places him in front of the Depository a short time after the shooting, which tallies with his account of his whereabouts
His HSCA statements simply don't contain enough information to determine exactly where he was at any given point in the minutes after the assassination. His WC statement is no better.
His HSCA statements blow your timeline out of the water, Mr Todd
As for Davis, if you take her statement at face value, she would have been back in the TSBD even before Adams and Styles would have reached the first floor. So either she comes back out later, or spends more time in front of the building that her FBI statement would seem to imply.
Nope----------some initial confusion, then following in direction of JFK's car a short ways, then turns around and heads back towards front entrance. Her account is fully compatible with Ms Adams'. Your timeline for Ms Adams is not remotely supported by her account.
It's painfully obvious, Mr Todd, that in putting together your timeline for Ms Adams you missed the detail about Mr Molina and Ms Adams and so never thought to cross-reference their own statements.
Thumb1:
-
MT:
Exactly how long did Molina say it was between the time of the last shot to the time he left for grassy knoll?
He didn't really say.
Except... he did: "When everybody started to get up"
And when, exactly, was that?
MT:
Exactly how long was it before Molina returned to the front of the Depository from the GK?
He didn't say.
Except... he did: he makes it clear that he DIDN'T return to the front of the Depository, he went inside via a side door. It is evident that you were completely unaware of the contents of Mr Molina's HSCA interview when you put together your timeline
Molina said that he came in through the "red gates." Those are the chain-link gates at the front of the depository. The front. Not the side.
MT:
Did Molina go straight into the Depository after returning from the GK, or does he linger before going in?
He doesn't really say.
Who cares? He is nowhere near the front of the Depository, which is where Ms Adams has seen him
If Molina re-enters through the red gates, then he's at the front of the Depository.
MT:
Exactly where in this did Molina say he saw Adams? Was it before he left for the GK? while he was going there? When he was returning? After he returned?
He never said where, when, or even if he ran into her.
Who cares? She correctly places him in front of the Depository a short time after the shooting, which tallies with his account of his whereabouts
define "short time."
MT:
His HSCA statements simply don't contain enough information to determine exactly where he was at any given point in the minutes after the assassination. His WC statement is no better.
His HSCA statements blow your timeline out of the water, Mr Todd
You might like to think so, but then again, you can't answer my questions either specifically or correctly.
MT:
As for Davis, if you take her statement at face value, she would have been back in the TSBD even before Adams and Styles would have reached the first floor. So either she comes back out later, or spends more time in front of the building that her FBI statement would seem to imply.
Nope----------some initial confusion, then following in direction of JFK's car a short ways, then turns around and heads back towards front entrance. Her account is fully compatible with Ms Adams'. Your timeline for Ms Adams is not remotely supported by her account.
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD; Smith is seen in the Couch film running past the red gates about 30 seconds after the last shot. She then moves forward with the crowd, but after 15 feet she turns back and goes back into the building. It doesn't take long to get carried 15 feet with the crowd, and it doesn't take long to walk back through the door..which wasn't far, since she'd started on the front steps. That is, if you take her statement literally. When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairwy (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in thetime it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
It's painfully obvious, Mr Todd, that in putting together your timeline for Ms Adams you missed the detail about Mr Molina and Ms Adams and so never thought to cross-reference their own statements.
The only thing that's obvious here is, you can't read particularly well and you don't take time to think anything through. Then again, what else should we expect from a guy whose motto seems to be "who cares?"
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And when, exactly, was that?
Molina said that he came in through the "red gates." Those are the chain-link gates at the front of the depository. The front. Not the side.
If Molina re-enters through the red gates, then he's at the front of the Depository.
define "short time."
You might like to think so, but then again, you can't answer my questions either specifically or correctly.
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD; Smith is seen in the Couch film running past the red gates about 30 seconds after the last shot. She then moves forward with the crowd, but after 15 feet she turns back and goes back into the building. It doesn't take long to get carried 15 feet with the crowd, and it doesn't take long to walk back through the door..which wasn't far, since she'd started on the front steps. That is, if you take her statement literally. When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairwy (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in thetime it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
The only thing that's obvious here is, you can't read particularly well and you don't take time to think anything through. Then again, what else should we expect from a guy whose motto seems to be "who cares?"
Molina said that he came in through the "red gates." Those are the chain-link gates at the front of the depository. The front. Not the side.
Says who?
If Molina re-enters through the red gates, then he's at the front of the Depository.
Only because you assume that the red gates Molina was talking about were indeed exclusively at the front of the building. You have failed completely to show they were.
You might like to think so, but then again, you can't answer my questions either specifically or correctly.
As if you can answer any question with anything but speculation and assumption
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD
Another one of your assumptions.....
When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairwy (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in thetime it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
No. Only according to your assumptions.... You do this constantly. You make an assumption (like the erroneous one that the cop who told Adams to return to the building was one of men locking down the building) and then build on that as if it was true, despite the fact that you haven't got a shred of evidence for it. There's a reason why you haven't responded to my last post and we both know what that reason is!
The preponderance of evidence that Adams and Styles went down stairs immediately after the last shot is conclusive and it would have taken them less than a minute to leave the building. You're not fooling anybody!
The only thing that's obvious here is, you can't read particularly well and you don't take time to think anything through. Then again, what else should we expect from a guy whose motto seems to be "who cares?"
And there is the sign of utter weakness and desperation; the personal attack! It completely destroys whatever credibility you had left.
-
Molina said that he came in through the "red gates." Those are the chain-link gates at the front of the depository. The front. Not the side.
Says who?
Says Molina. "So I then came back into the building, not through the front door, but through -- there's some red gates further on this side of the building and I went in through there and went into the workroom area of the first floor"
"this side of the building" juxtposed with "the front door" = the front of the building.
If Molina re-enters through the red gates, then he's at the front of the Depository.
Only because you assume that the red gates Molina was talking about were indeed exclusively at the front of the building. You have failed completely to show they were.
This image has already been posted in this thread, but maybe you missed it. Please tell me where the gates are.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg)
You might like to think so, but then again, you can't answer my questions either specifically or correctly.
As if you can answer any question with anything but speculation and assumption
:D You're a funny man, Mr Weidmann. You're also about the last guy around here who needs to be throwing out that accusation.
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD
Another one of your assumptions.....
You have some funny ideas about the word "assumption"
Avery says she didn't know what had happened until she saw a policeman running "in the direction of the President's car." The statement implies that he was the first policeman she saw running in that direction after the shooting. Joe Marshall Smith said he ran from his position on the East side of the Elm/Houston towards the GK. You can see him do so at the beginning of the Couch film, as I've already mentioned. He ran down the sidewalk next to and directly in front of the TSBD entrance...literally only feet from the TSBD steps. That is, directly in front of Avery. Of the three officers who were stationed at the corner of Elm and Main, he was the only one whose movements after the shooting match what Avery described.
And if he wasn't the first officer who Avery saw going in that direction, then Mr Ford has an even bigger problem, since this would take Avery back into the TSBD that much faster.
When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairw[a]y (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in the time it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
No. Only according to your assumptions.... You do this constantly.
I didn't assume what Avery said. I didn't assume what Joe Smith said. I didn't assume what EL Smith and Welcome Barnett said that they didn't do. That comes from their statements and testimonies. The cop running West down Old Elm in the Couch film has to be Joe Smith, by simple elimination. The Couch film, in turn, gives us a good idea of how soon after the assassination that Avery would have seen Smith whiz by.
I also didn't assume that Adams and Styles delayed their departure from the SF&C office window on the 4th floor. That is what they've said. I did not assume their path from said window to the front of the TSBD -- I used what they have stated. It's no assumption the length of their path from the 4th floor window to the front of the TSBD is far, far longer than the 15 feet forwards, 15 feet back, and 15 feet to the door Avery says she travelled.
And no assumption is required, once you put all of this together, to realize that a literal reading of Avery's statement leads directly to a situation where she would have been back in the building well before Adams and Styles made it to the area near the front door.
You make an assumption (like the erroneous one that the cop who told Adams to return to the building was one of men locking down the building) and then build on that as if it was true, despite the fact that you haven't got a shred of evidence for it. There's a reason why you haven't responded to my last post and we both know what that reason is!
I know that the reason is that I only have so much time to do this, and your posts are full of weird accusations and misstatements where I have to go back, double check, then come in and correct what you've mangled. It takes time to do that. For example, you didn't know about the gate at the front of the TSBD?
The preponderance of evidence that Adams and Styles went down stairs immediately after the last shot is conclusive and it would have taken them less than a minute to leave the building. You're not fooling anybody!
IIRC, neither one said they left immediately, especially in the sense that you want to believe. Adams testified that it was 15-30 seconds. Styles said it was 1-2 minutes from what I recall. You can't even get your star witnesses right without misrepresenting them.
The only thing that's obvious here is, you can't read particularly well and you don't take time to think anything through. Then again, what else should we expect from a guy whose motto seems to be "who cares?"
And there is the sign of utter weakness and desperation; the personal attack! It completely destroys whatever credibility you had left.
It's a sign that I find Mr Ford's arguments tediously lightweight and insubstantial. Also, he appears to be lacking fairly basic reading skills and logical skills. As I said, I chalk it up to his "who cares" attitude. As for you, I keep noticing that you like to unilaterally declare yourself the victor. This habit says far more about you than it does those you like to pretend you've vanquished. And it implies that there's a large delta between where you put yourself in this world versus the place you really occupy.
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And when, exactly, was that?
Certainly not five minutes after the last shot! Use your common sense, man
Molina said that he came in through the "red gates." Those are the chain-link gates at the front of the depository. The front. Not the side.
He reentered the main building through a side door
If Molina re-enters through the red gates, then he's at the front of the Depository.
~Grin~ Nice try, Mr Todd. But Ms Adams says she saw him standing in front of the front entrance to the building. No one, as you well know, described those gates as the front entrance!
define "short time."
You might like to think so, but then again, you can't answer my questions either specifically or correctly.
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD; Smith is seen in the Couch film running past the red gates about 30 seconds after the last shot. She then moves forward with the crowd, but after 15 feet she turns back and goes back into the building. It doesn't take long to get carried 15 feet with the crowd, and it doesn't take long to walk back through the door..which wasn't far, since she'd started on the front steps. That is, if you take her statement literally. When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairwy (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in thetime it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
Bzzzzt. There's no way you're gonna get five+ mins out of Ms Davis' description of her movements, Mr Todd, no matter how desperately you try. Initial confusion + down the steps + down a ways west + trying to work out what's happened + walks back to front entrance = ~ 2 mins
The only thing that's obvious here is, you can't read particularly well and you don't take time to think anything through. Then again, what else should we expect from a guy whose motto seems to be "who cares?"
~Grin~ I will happily use those words in response to gaslighting 'questions' from hardline Warren Gullibles like you, Mr Todd
It's evident that you care intensely about the Adams timeline you so meticulously put together, Mr Todd, and it clearly upsets you that it has been exposed as not comporting with the facts! But there's a life lesson in here you might profit from: do your research BEFORE proclaiming confidently how things went down.
Hope this helps! Thumb1:
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Says Molina. "So I then came back into the building, not through the front door, but through -- there's some red gates further on this side of the building and I went in through there and went into the workroom area of the first floor"
"this side of the building" juxtposed with "the front door" = the front of the building.
This image has already been posted in this thread, but maybe you missed it. Please tell me where the gates are.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j976jZT/TSBD-1st-Floorplan.jpg)
:D You're a funny man, Mr Weidmann. You're also about the last guy around here who needs to be throwing out that accusation.
You have some funny ideas about the word "assumption"
Avery says she didn't know what had happened until she saw a policeman running "in the direction of the President's car." The statement implies that he was the first policeman she saw running in that direction after the shooting. Joe Marshall Smith said he ran from his position on the East side of the Elm/Houston towards the GK. You can see him do so at the beginning of the Couch film, as I've already mentioned. He ran down the sidewalk next to and directly in front of the TSBD entrance...literally only feet from the TSBD steps. That is, directly in front of Avery. Of the three officers who were stationed at the corner of Elm and Main, he was the only one whose movements after the shooting match what Avery described.
And if he wasn't the first officer who Avery saw going in that direction, then Mr Ford has an even bigger problem, since this would take Avery back into the TSBD that much faster.
I didn't assume what Avery said. I didn't assume what Joe Smith said. I didn't assume what EL Smith and Welcome Barnett said that they didn't do. That comes from their statements and testimonies. The cop running West down Old Elm in the Couch film has to be Joe Smith, by simple elimination. The Couch film, in turn, gives us a good idea of how soon after the assassination that Avery would have seen Smith whiz by.
I also didn't assume that Adams and Styles delayed their departure from the SF&C office window on the 4th floor. That is what they've said. I did not assume their path from said window to the front of the TSBD -- I used what they have stated. It's no assumption the length of their path from the 4th floor window to the front of the TSBD is far, far longer than the 15 feet forwards, 15 feet back, and 15 feet to the door Avery says she travelled.
And no assumption is required, once you put all of this together, to realize that a literal reading of Avery's statement leads directly to a situation where she would have been back in the building well before Adams and Styles made it to the area near the front door.
I know that the reason is that I only have so much time to do this, and your posts are full of weird accusations and misstatements where I have to go back, double check, then come in and correct what you've mangled. It takes time to do that. For example, you didn't know about the gate at the front of the TSBD?
IIRC, neither one said they left immediately, especially in the sense that you want to believe. Adams testified that it was 15-30 seconds. Styles said it was 1-2 minutes from what I recall. You can't even get your star witnesses right without misrepresenting them.
It's a sign that I find Mr Ford's arguments tediously lightweight and insubstantial. Also, he appears to be lacking fairly basic reading skills and logical skills. As I said, I chalk it up to his "who cares" attitude. As for you, I keep noticing that you like to unilaterally declare yourself the victor. This habit says far more about you than it does those you like to pretend you've vanquished. And it implies that there's a large delta between where you put yourself in this world versus the place you really occupy.
You have some funny ideas about the word "assumption"
Really? :D
Avery says she didn't know what had happened until she saw a policeman running "in the direction of the President's car." The statement implies that he was the first policeman she saw running in that direction after the shooting. Joe Marshall Smith said he ran from his position on the East side of the Elm/Houston towards the GK.
Davis' statement does not imply anything. All she said was that she saw a policeman "running in the direction of the President's car". Everything else is your imagination, just like it was when you incorrectly assumed that Adams was told to return to the building by an officer who was part of the lock down team and completely ignored there were already police officers in the railway yard within less than a minute after the shots.
The cop running West down Old Elm in the Couch film has to be Joe Smith, by simple elimination.
"Has to be"?... Now there's an assumption, if I ever saw one!
But let's say, for the sake of argument that you are right. Previously you said;
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD; Smith is seen in the Couch film running past the red gates about 30 seconds after the last shot. She then moves forward with the crowd, but after 15 feet she turns back and goes back into the building. It doesn't take long to get carried 15 feet with the crowd, and it doesn't take long to walk back through the door..which wasn't far, since she'd started on the front steps. That is, if you take her statement literally.
When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairwy (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in thetime it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
I'm not sure what the point is that you are trying to make, but if it is that Davis was already back in the building by the time Adams and Styles reached the front of the TSBD, then you need to explain how Adams could have seen Davis, which of course you can't!
In fact, in the real world, all this actually means is that Davis did indeed re-enter the building shortly after the shots and that Adams saw her prior to that, which clearly suggests that Adams and Styles must have left the 4th floor immediately after the last shot! There is no other explanation. If, as you claimed previously, Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until well after 12:36 (I'm paraphrasing) than Davis, as a consequence, would have had to stay outside the building until at least 12:39, which, in any other place than your alternate reality, is clearing not the case.
I also didn't assume that Adams and Styles delayed their departure from the SF&C office window on the 4th floor. That is what they've said.
It's not only an assumption, it's also simply not true. Styles may have been ambivalent in her statements but Adams has been nothing but consistent. Also an early departure from the 4th floor matches all the other known details, a late departure, like the one you advocate, doesn't.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately
<>
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Prior to her testimony, Adams told the investigators;
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;
"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"
and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"
In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot
And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;
"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.
And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noisy stairs.
I know that the reason is that I only have so much time to do this, and your posts are full of weird accusations and misstatements where I have to go back, double check, then come in and correct what you've mangled. It takes time to do that.
Yeah right.... and you still get it wrong time after time... and you have the time to reply to others, go figure.
For example, you didn't know about the gate at the front of the TSBD?
Of course I know about the gate between the TSBD and the annex building, which places it next to the TSBD and not at the front of the TSBD. And that gate does not give access to the TSBD. It gives access to doors on the west side of the building, which is where Molina said he entered. Where Molina was exactly is actually insignificant because whether you place him near the front entrance or near the gates, he's still on the same dead end street running in front of the TSBD and that's where Adams saw him. Period!
IIRC, neither one said they left immediately, especially in the sense that you want to believe. Adams testified that it was 15-30 seconds. Styles said it was 1-2 minutes from what I recall. You can't even get your star witnesses right without misrepresenting them.
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
And talking about misrepresentation; when you completely ignore all the statements Adams made, when you dismiss what Garner told Stroud and when you cherry-pick a statement by Styles, you like, what else are you doing but misrepresenting the evidence?
And, even worse, you keep changing your story. What's up with that? Not so long ago you claimed that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor (I am paraphrasing) until well after 12:36 (when the lock down at the back started, remember?), now you go with a recollection of 1-2 minutes that Styles might have said. You are all over the place. If the women stayed on the 4th floor for 1-2 minutes they would have ran into Truly and Baker and they would be on the 1st floor well before Shelley and Lovelady even entered the building. You really need to start thinking things through before you write this nonsense.
It's a sign that I find Mr Ford's arguments tediously lightweight and insubstantial. Also, he appears to be lacking fairly basic reading skills and logical skills. As I said, I chalk it up to his "who cares" attitude.
You might want to take some time out of your busy schedule to look up the meaning of the word "arrogance".
As for you, I keep noticing that you like to unilaterally declare yourself the victor. This habit says far more about you than it does those you like to pretend you've vanquished. And it implies that there's a large delta between where you put yourself in this world versus the place you really occupy.
Says the guy on a high horse who makes all sorts of dubious claims, presents assumptions and opinions as "evidence", and is not able to come up with a coherent timeline of his own.
And BTW, pointing out that you are running from a conversation is not the same as declaring myself the victor. That would be a pointless exercise anyway when one deals with a LN who will never agree with anything I say in the first place. The only one who is talking in terms of winning an argument is you, which tells me all I need to know about your mindset. I understood a long time ago that it's practically impossible to persuade a LN of anything, so trying to "win an argument" would be (and still is) a complete waste of time.
Like it or not, the bottom line is that Adams saw Molina and Davis;
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
So far, you have failed miserably (once again) to demonstrate that Molina and Davis stayed outside the building substantially longer than they said. Your assumption that they did is meaningless!
-
It would be my pleasure, Mr Nessan!
From Mr Molina's HSCA interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/zE2xxqZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dn0FKV2.jpg)
From Ms Avery Davis' 20 March '64 FBI Interview:
(https://i.imgur.com/5UnIUSq.jpg)
Now, Mr Nessan---------------over to you with your evidence that Mr Molina and Ms Davis lingered front of house for at least five minutes! Whatcha got? Thumb1:
A Ford: "Well, it turns out both of them made clear that they remained at the front of the building for only a very short time. This provides very strong corroboration for Ms Adams' claimed timeline."
This is what you originally believed, that Molina ans Davis stayed in front of the building. Now you have Molina outside after having gone to the Grassy Knoll, which he states in his WC testimony. He never ellaborates on what he did returning to the building. Obviously he was out front because Adams sees him and Davis upon her return to the front of the building at approximately 12:37.
Avery Davis does not go back into the building and up to the fourth floor until Adams returns to the front of the bulding for the second time. Adams states she passed her on the stairs as she was descending to go out front. Both Adams and Davis then reference watching the same event take place out on the sidewalk at the front of the building. Davis was in the fourth floor office watching and Adams was on the sidewalk watching.
Mr. BELIN - That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant?
Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.
(http://)
-
A Ford: "Well, it turns out both of them made clear that they remained at the front of the building for only a very short time. This provides very strong corroboration for Ms Adams' claimed timeline."
This is what you originally believed, that Molina ans Davis stayed in front of the building. Now you have Molina outside after having gone to the Grassy Knoll, which he states in his WC testimony. He never ellaborates on what he did returning to the building. Obviously he was out front because Adams sees him and Davis upon her return to the front of the building at approximately 12:37.
Avery Davis does not go back into the building and up to the fourth floor until Adams returns to the front of the bulding for the second time. Adams states she passed her on the stairs as she was descending to go out front. Both Adams and Davis then reference watching the same event take place out on the sidewalk at the front of the building. Davis was in the fourth floor office watching and Adams was on the sidewalk watching.
Mr. BELIN - That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant?
Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.
(http://)
Obviously he was out front because Adams sees him and Davis upon her return to the front of the building at approximately 12:37.
What "return to the front of the building" would that be?
Avery Davis does not go back into the building and up to the fourth floor until Adams returns to the front of the bulding for the second time.
What "second time"?
You seem confused. Adams and Styles left the building at the loading dock at the back within roughly a minute after the shots. To re-enter the building, they went to the front entrance. Styles entered straight away and Adams waited outside for a few minutes before also entering.
Unless I am missing something, there is no "return to the front entrance" or a "second time".
-
A Ford: "Well, it turns out both of them made clear that they remained at the front of the building for only a very short time. This provides very strong corroboration for Ms Adams' claimed timeline."
This is what you originally believed, that Molina ans Davis stayed in front of the building.
Yes----------briefly, as they both make clear
Now you have Molina outside after having gone to the Grassy Knoll, which he states in his WC testimony.
Huh?
He never ellaborates on what he did returning to the building.
Yes, he does------------you just haven't read his HSCA interview in full
Obviously he was out front because Adams sees him and Davis upon her return to the front of the building at approximately 12:37.
Her return to the front of the building? What on earth are you yapping about?
Avery Davis does not go back into the building and up to the fourth floor until Adams returns to the front of the bulding for the second time.
Huh? When does Ms Adams return to the front of the building for the second time?
Adams states she passed her on the stairs as she was descending to go out front.
Huh? What are you smoking, Mr Nessan?
Both Adams and Davis then reference watching the same event take place out on the sidewalk at the front of the building. Davis was in the fourth floor office watching and Adams was on the sidewalk watching.
Mr. BELIN - That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant?
Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down,
Hang on, please don't tell me this is what makes you think Ms Adams encountered Ms Davis on the stairs.............. Holy moly!
we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.
Cite for Ms Davis, please! Thumb1:
In sum: Golly. I wasn't expecting much by way of coherent response from you, Mr Nessan, but this is embarrassingly inept stuff you're fetching up here...............
-
You seem confused. Adams and Styles left the building at the loading dock at the back within roughly a minute after the shots. To re-enter the building, they went to the front entrance. Styles entered straight away and Adams waited outside for a few minutes before also entering.
Unless I am missing something, there is no "return to the front entrance" or a "second time".
Poor Mr Nessan's confusion is just next level :D
-
Obviously he was out front because Adams sees him and Davis upon her return to the front of the building at approximately 12:37.
What "return to the front of the building" would that be?
Avery Davis does not go back into the building and up to the fourth floor until Adams returns to the front of the bulding for the second time.
What "second time"?
You seem confused. Adams and Styles left the building at the loading dock at the back within roughly a minute after the shots. To re-enter the building, they went to the front entrance. Styles entered straight away and Adams waited outside for a few minutes before also entering.
Unless I am missing something, there is no "return to the front entrance" or a "second time".
You are missing something.
-
You are missing something.
Yes, I am missing your explanation. Now why is that not a surprise?
-
Yes, I am missing your explanation. Now why is that not a surprise?
more parlour games. anyone lost the pieces that they're playing with? i know i have......
-
Yes, I am missing your explanation. Now why is that not a surprise?
Mr Nessan doesn't want to admit he bigtime double-goofed by
------------completely misunderstanding the referenced location of Ms Adams' encounter with Ms Davis
------------inventing a return trip to the front of the building by Ms Adams
Most amusing! Thumb1:
-
Yes, I am missing your explanation. Now why is that not a surprise?
What we have are two people with absolutely no explanation for what she said. Now why am I not surprised by that.
You read the explanation and commented on it. Now you are pretending you did not????
-
Mr Nessan doesn't want to admit he bigtime double-goofed by
------------completely misunderstanding the referenced location of Ms Adams' encounter with Ms Davis
------------inventing a return trip to the front of the building by Ms Adams
Most amusing! Thumb1:
What is amusing is you hoping an encounter with Molina and Davis would somehow change the timeline. It did not. Belin did not even care to elaborate on Adams other observations, he had all the answers he needed to put the matter to rest. Using time stamps of the various police officers he determined their departure was later than they estimated. That is why they did not encounter anyone on the stairs. Which is the only question that needed to be answered.
-
What we have are two people with absolutely no explanation for what she said. Now why am I not surprised by that.
You read the explanation and commented on it. Now you are pretending you did not????
You seem to be living in an alternate reality. Please try not to talk in riddles.
What is amusing is you hoping an encounter with Molina and Davis would somehow change the timeline. It did not. Belin did not even care to elaborate on Adams other observations, he had all the answers he needed to put the matter to rest. Using time stamps of the various police officers he determined their departure was later than they estimated. That is why they did not encounter anyone on the stairs. Which is the only question that needed to be answered.
he had all the answers he needed to put the matter to rest.
Obviously, that was indeed his intention. Never mind what the witness says, when she says something Belin didn't like, she must be shut down.
Using time stamps of the various police officers he determined their departure was later than they estimated.
Wrong on all counts. Belin never used the time stamps of various police officers. He tried to discredit Adams by desperately trying to get Shelley and Lovelady to confirm they had seen her on the 1st floor, which in fact they hadn't.
That is why they did not encounter anyone on the stairs. Which is the only question that needed to be answered.
Really? What a superficial point of view!
The reason why Adams and Styles did not encounter anyone on the stairs was because they were out of the building by the time Truly and Baker reached the stairs. They may have missed them by only a few seconds, but Adams testified it took her less than a minute after the shots to get down the stairs and out of the building. It took Truly and Baker approx 90 seconds after the shots to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom. The men were running up the stairs, so if you give them 15 seconds to get one floor higher, they would have reached the stairs on the first floor at about 75 seconds after the shots.
And before you say that Adams estimate of 1 minute is not realistic, let's not forget that a time trial for "Unsolved History" (which can be found on YouTube), showed that "Oswald" needed 50 seconds after the last shot to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom and he had one more floor to go down than Adams and Styles.
If Adams and Styles had gone down later, like LNs want to claim without any evidence, they would have seen Truly and Baker come up, like Dorothy Garner did and they would have been perfectly placed to see who ever was coming down on the stairs from the 6th floor. The more you delay the departure of Adams and Styles the less likely and physically possible the theory becomes.
The irony of all this is that Adams and Styles weren't Belin's real problem. That was Dorothy Garner, because she could confirm that the girls went down before Truly and Baker came up, which means somewhere inbetween those two events Garner, who was standing next to the stairs of the 4th floor, could not have missed anybody coming down the stairs for the 6th floor in a hurry.
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Poor Mr Nessan's confusion is just next level :D
:D :D :D
Which "second time" is he referring to?
-
What is amusing is you hoping an encounter with Molina and Davis would somehow change the timeline. It did not. Belin did not even care to elaborate on Adams other observations, he had all the answers he needed to put the matter to rest. Using time stamps of the various police officers he determined their departure was later than they estimated. That is why they did not encounter anyone on the stairs. Which is the only question that needed to be answered.
:D
Translation of Mr Nessan's verbiage above: I don't have a substantive rebuttal re. Mr Molina and Ms Davis, so I'm going to try to gaslight with more nonsense.
Renewed challenge to Mr Nessan! Kindly quote actual statements from Mr Molina and Ms Davis supportive of your timeline putting Ms Adams' arrival at the front entrance 5+ minutes after the assassination
Thumb1:
-
You seem to be living in an alternate reality. Please try not to talk in riddles.
he had all the answers he needed to put the matter to rest.
Obviously, that was indeed his intention. Never mind what the witness says, when she says something Belin didn't like, she must be shut down.
Using time stamps of the various police officers he determined their departure was later than they estimated.
Wrong on all counts. Belin never used the time stamps of various police officers. He tried to discredit Adams by desperately trying to get Shelley and Lovelady to confirm they had seen her on the 1st floor, which in fact they hadn't.
That is why they did not encounter anyone on the stairs. Which is the only question that needed to be answered.
Really? What a superficial point of view!
The reason why Adams and Styles did not encounter anyone on the stairs was because they were out of the building by the time Truly and Baker reached the stairs. They may have missed them by only a few seconds, but Adams testified it took her less than a minute after the shots to get down the stairs and out of the building. It took Truly and Baker approx 90 seconds after the shots to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom. The men were running up the stairs, so if you give them 15 seconds to get one floor higher, they would have reached the stairs on the first floor at about 75 seconds after the shots.
And before you say that Adams estimate of 1 minute is not realistic, let's not forget that a time trial for "Unsolved History" (which can be found on YouTube), showed that "Oswald" needed 50 seconds after the last shot to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom and he had one more floor to go down than Adams and Styles.
If Adams and Styles had gone down later, like LNs want to claim without any evidence, they would have seen Truly and Baker come up, like Dorothy Garner did and they would have been perfectly placed to see who ever was coming down on the stairs from the 6th floor. The more you delay the departure of Adams and Styles the less likely and physically possible the theory becomes.
The irony of all this is that Adams and Styles weren't Belin's real problem. That was Dorothy Garner, because she could confirm that the girls went down before Truly and Baker came up, which means somewhere inbetween those two events Garner, who was standing next to the stairs of the 4th floor, could not have missed anybody coming down the stairs for the 6th floor in a hurry.
Riddle? I don't think so. We are discussing the two minute long travel of two women with time stamps provided by the police. It is only complicated if you make it complicated.
The Stroud document is a non starter. It disproves itself by the recollections of Adams and Styles along the way.
There is no need to villainize the WC to make a point. They never told the witnesses they were mistaken or lying. They used other witnesses to help show what really happened or corroborate what they were stating. Rowland is a great example of that. They showed considerable restraint given the magnitude of what he was doing.
-
:D :D :D
Which "second time" is he referring to?
Are you aware there is even more information on how the vaccinated are spreading covid to the unvaccinated and vaccinated alike. Acting as Typhoid Mary's.
This is concerning. The vaccine is waning and there seems to be no plan to re-vaccinate everyone. Booster? What keeps it from weakening over time too? There are now variants that are immune to the vaccine. Anyone in Agriculture could see that one coming from a mile away.
-
:D
Translation of Mr Nessan's verbiage above: I don't have a substantive rebuttal re. Mr Molina and Ms Davis, so I'm going to try to gaslight with more nonsense.
Renewed challenge to Mr Nessan! Kindly quote actual statements from Mr Molina and Ms Davis supportive of your timeline putting Ms Adams' arrival at the front entrance 5+ minutes after the assassination
Gaslighting? No I do not think so.
: to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability : to subject (someone) to gaslighting"
You are most definitely weak minded and easily manipulated if you think this is gaslighting. These are simple statements by the witnesses and should do you no harm. If you compare them with other witness statements they corroborate each other and give you the answer. The answer is Adams and Styles left the office later than they thought. If you think Molina and Davis are important then by all means explain why. Your original clai they immediately went back inside has proven to be false. You are the one who brought them into the discussion, you explain why they are important. I do not see their importance and I don't have the time or the inclination to do your homework for you.
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Riddle? I don't think so. We are discussing the two minute long travel of two women with time stamps provided by the police. It is only complicated if you make it complicated.
The Stroud document is a non starter. It disproves itself by the recollections of Adams and Styles along the way.
There is no need to villainize the WC to make a point. They never told the witnesses they were mistaken or lying. They used other witnesses to help show what really happened or corroborate what they were stating. Rowland is a great example of that. They showed considerable restraint given the magnitude of what he was doing.
Riddle? I don't think so.
Try real hard and think again
We are discussing the two minute long travel of two women with time stamps provided by the police.
No we are not. We are discussing the bogus claims you made previously and now we can add this one. What "two minute long travel" are you on about?
The Stroud document is a non starter. It disproves itself by the recollections of Adams and Styles along the way.
Utter BS. You're just looking for an easy way to dismiss a crucial piece of evidence that you don't like
There is no need to villainize the WC to make a point. They never told the witnesses they were mistaken or lying. They used other witnesses to help show what really happened or corroborate what they were stating. Rowland is a great example of that. They showed considerable restraint given the magnitude of what he was doing.
This alone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you live in an alternate reality.
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Are you aware there is even more information on how the vaccinated are spreading covid to the unvaccinated and vaccinated alike. Acting as Typhoid Mary's.
This is concerning. The vaccine is waning and there seems to be no plan to re-vaccinate everyone. Booster? What keeps it from weakening over time too? There are now variants that are immune to the vaccine. Anyone in Agriculture could see that one coming from a mile away.
What is really concerning is that somebody can loose grip on reality as much as you seem to have done.
You claimed that;
Avery Davis does not go back into the building and up to the fourth floor until Adams returns to the front of the bulding for the second time.
And when we ask what "second time" you are going on about, you start babbling about Covid.
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Gaslighting? No I do not think so.
: to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability : to subject (someone) to gaslighting"
You are most definitely weak minded and easily manipulated if you think this is gaslighting. These are simple statements by the witnesses and should do you no harm. If you compare them with other witness statements they corroborate each other and give you the answer. The answer is Adams and Styles left the office later than they thought. If you think Molina and Davis are important then by all means explain why. Your original clai they immediately went back inside has proven to be false. You are the one who brought them into the discussion, you explain why they are important. I do not see their importance and I don't have the time or the inclination to do your homework for you.
These are simple statements by the witnesses and should do you no harm. If you compare them with other witness statements they corroborate each other and give you the answer. The answer is Adams and Styles left the office later than they thought.
In order to make this claim, you must have put a timeline together that actually works and includes all the known facts.
Why don't you surprise us all with your infinite wisdom by posting that timeline here?
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Riddle? I don't think so.
Then try real hard and think again
We are discussing the two minute long travel of two women with time stamps provided by the police.
No we are not. We are discussing the bogus claims you made previously and now we can add this one. What "two minute long travel" are you on about?
The Stroud document is a non starter. It disproves itself by the recollections of Adams and Styles along the way.
Utter BS. You're just looking for an easy way to dismiss a crucial piece of evidence that you don't like
There is no need to villainize the WC to make a point. They never told the witnesses they were mistaken or lying. They used other witnesses to help show what really happened or corroborate what they were stating. Rowland is a great example of that. They showed considerable restraint given the magnitude of what he was doing.
This alone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you live in an alternate reality.
Explain where the riddle is. I don't see it in examining the movements of
these women and comparing it to others statements.
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Explain where the riddle is. I don't see it in examining the movements of
these women and comparing it to others statements.
The riddle is in your confused mind. Nobody has a clue what you are rambling on about.
Now, where's that timeline?
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The riddle is in your confused mind. Nobody has a clue what you are rambling on about.
Now, where's that timeline?
It is the same one. It never has changed.
What riddle?
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It is the same one. It never has changed.
What riddle?
Your evasiveness tells me all I need to know. You don't bring anything of substance or value to the discussion.
Play your silly games with somebody else. I'm done wasting my time on your nonsense.
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It is the same one. It never has changed.
What riddle?
Re 'gaslighting', directed at you.. by we know who
_'What is really concerning is that somebody can loose grip on reality as much as you seem to have done'.
_'Try real hard and think again'
_'The riddle is in your confused mind. Nobody has a clue what you are rambling on about'
Oh, and these:
_'Your evasiveness tells me all I need to know'.
_'You don't bring anything of substance or value to the discussion'.
_'Play your silly games with somebody else'.
_'I'm done wasting my time on your nonsense'.
-
Re 'gaslighting', directed at you.. by we know who
_'What is really concerning is that somebody can loose grip on reality as much as you seem to have done'.
_'Try real hard and think again'
_'The riddle is in your confused mind. Nobody has a clue what you are rambling on about'
Oh, and these:
_'Your evasiveness tells me all I need to know'.
_'You don't bring anything of substance or value to the discussion'.
_'Play your silly games with somebody else'.
_'I'm done wasting my time on your nonsense'.
You and Nessan make a lovely couple Thumb1:
Got anything of significance to say or will you keep it, as per usual, to superficial drivel about anything but the case?
-
You and Nessan make a lovely couple Thumb1:
Got anything of significance to say or will you keep it, as per usual, to superficial drivel about anything but the case?
You and Nessan make a lovely couple
_Keep me out of your fantasies, creep
Got anything of significance to say or will you keep it, as per usual, to superficial drivel about anything but the case?
_ There's that gaslighting again. I'd say you're the superficial one. Not one post w/o an attempted insult from you. Which means you are frustrated b/c your b/s does not gain traction amongst LNers
Now lets see what people who were actually on scene re Tippit, for example, had to say
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4qPcBm6/1026-WHALEY.png)
billchapman
William Whaley
(https://i.postimg.cc/R07N2Y8c/Screen-Shot-2021.png)
billchapman
What Earlene Roberts witnessed around 1:00pm
at Oswald's safe house 11.22.63
-------------------------------
WITNESSES_GROUP OF 12+
------------------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrtzC7bQ/BTYPE-MARKHAM-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Helen Markham_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzK6bC4t/BTYPE-CALLAWAY-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Ted Callaway_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QByFRKk/BTYPE-BDAVIS-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Barbara Davis_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0yq4f8h/BTYPE-VDAVIS-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Victoria Davis_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xQBYfcK/BTYPE-GUINYARD-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Sam Guinyard_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/43dwS70t/BTYPE-REYNOLDS-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Warren Reynolds_Group of 12
More to come
-
You and Nessan make a lovely couple
_Keep me out of your fantasies, creep
Got anything of significance to say or will you keep it, as per usual, to superficial drivel about anything but the case?
_ There's that gaslighting again. I'd say you're the superficial one. Not one post w/o an attempted insult from you. Which means you are frustrated b/c your b/s does not gain traction amongst LNers
Now lets see what people who were actually on scene re Tippit, for example, had to say
More to come
I'd say you're the superficial one.
Who cares what you say? :D
does not gain traction amongst LNers
Fool. Nothing will ever gain traction with a LN, unless it is preordained by the WC bible. That's a given.... In that respect LNs are not much different than Trump followers.
What is most amusing is that LNs, like you and Nessan, can never ever enter into any kind of substantive discussion above a superficial level, nor can you actually explain any of the multitude of discrepancies in the evidence you so much like to ignore. The desperation to defend the undefenable is obvious in ever shallow reply, just like the one you just posted.
As for you, you're a one trick pony and your act is getting beyond boring.
-
I'd say you're the superficial one.
Who cares what you say? :D
does not gain traction amongst LNers
Fool. Nothing will ever gain traction with a LN, unless it is preordained by the WC bible. That's a given.... In that respect LNs are not much different than Trump followers.
What is most amusing is that LNs, like you and Nessan, can never ever enter into any kind of substantive discussion above a superficial level, nor can you actually explain any of the multitude of discrepancies in the evidence you so much like to ignore. You're a one trick pony and your act is getting beyond boring.
Who cares what you say? :D
_You do: You just responded
Fool. Nothing will ever gain traction with a LN, unless it is preordained by the WC bible. That's a given.... In that respect LNs are not much different than Trump followers.
_Again with the gaslighting ::)
What is most amusing is that LNs, like you and Nessan, can never ever enter into any kind of substantive discussion above a superficial level, nor can you actually explain any of the multitude of discrepancies in the evidence you so much like to ignore. You're a one trick pony and your act is getting beyond boring.
_Nothing more boring than the word salads that continue to ooze out of CT personal rabbit holes lo these many decades
_The 10tn & Patton witnesses rule the day no matter how hard & often you lot kiss Oswalds arse
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Who cares what you say? :D
_You do: You just responded
Fool. Nothing will ever gain traction with a LN, unless it is preordained by the WC bible. That's a given.... In that respect LNs are not much different than Trump followers.
_Again with the gaslighting ::)
What is most amusing is that LNs, like you and Nessan, can never ever enter into any kind of substantive discussion above a superficial level, nor can you actually explain any of the multitude of discrepancies in the evidence you so much like to ignore. You're a one trick pony and your act is getting beyond boring.
_Nothing more boring than the word salads that continue to ooze out of CT personal rabbit holes lo these many decades
_The 10tn & Patton witnesses rule the day no matter how hard & often you lot kiss Oswalds arse
_Again with the gaslighting ::)
And again, the voice of the insecure.....
Am I making you question your own reality or are you simply afraid that someday I might get you to do exactly that?
-
_Again with the gaslighting ::)
And again, the voice of the insecure.....
Am I making you question your own reality or are you simply afraid that someday I might get you to do exactly that?
My reality rests on what the Gang of 12+ witnesses saw, Slick
To wit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4qPcBm6/1026-WHALEY.png)
billchapman
William Whaley
(https://i.postimg.cc/R07N2Y8c/Screen-Shot-2021.png)
billchapman
What Earlene Roberts witnessed around 1:00pm
at Oswald's safe house 11.22.63
-------------------------------
WITNESSES_GROUP OF 12+
------------------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrtzC7bQ/BTYPE-MARKHAM-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Helen Markham_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzK6bC4t/BTYPE-CALLAWAY-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Ted Callaway_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QByFRKk/BTYPE-BDAVIS-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Barbara Davis_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0yq4f8h/BTYPE-VDAVIS-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Victoria Davis_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xQBYfcK/BTYPE-GUINYARD-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Sam Guinyard_Group of 12
(https://i.postimg.cc/43dwS70t/BTYPE-REYNOLDS-PUBLISH.png)
billchapman
Warren Reynolds_Group of 12
More to come
-
Your evasiveness tells me all I need to know. You don't bring anything of substance or value to the discussion.
Play your silly games with somebody else. I'm done wasting my time on your nonsense.
What evasive. You know what it is.
What riddle? Now we are seeing evasive.
-
Re 'gaslighting', directed at you.. by we know who
_'What is really concerning is that somebody can loose grip on reality as much as you seem to have done'.
_'Try real hard and think again'
_'The riddle is in your confused mind. Nobody has a clue what you are rambling on about'
Oh, and these:
_'Your evasiveness tells me all I need to know'.
_'You don't bring anything of substance or value to the discussion'.
_'Play your silly games with somebody else'.
_'I'm done wasting my time on your nonsense'.
His whole theory evaporated with the testimonies of Sgt Harkness and Det Sawyer. It was the end of the whole question of the timeline of Adams and Styles. He is just having a hard time with it. He will have to find something new to harp on.
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His whole theory evaporated with the testimonies of Sgt Harkness and Det Sawyer. It was the end of the whole question of the timeline of Adams and Styles. He is just having a hard time with it. He will have to find something new to harp on.
More noise from the alternate reality.
Mitch Todd's speculation about the testimony of Harkness and Sawyer became utterly irrelevant with the testimony of officer Barnett;
Mr. Liebeler. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. Barnett. I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. Barnett. Yes, sir.
<>
Mr. Liebeler. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. Barnett. Not a thing.
Mr. Liebeler. What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
That blew Todd's "lock down by Harkness" theory completely out of the water.
It might be wise to actually know the case before you start making silly comments.
Btw I'm still waiting for your alternate timeline, which includes all the known facts but shows that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor later than they said. Without producing one you really haven't got much of anything.
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More noise from the alternate reality.
Mitch Todd's speculation about the testimony of Harkness and Sawyer became utterly irrelevant with the testimony of officer Barnett;
Mr. Liebeler. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. Barnett. I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. Barnett. Yes, sir.
<>
Mr. Liebeler. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. Barnett. Not a thing.
Mr. Liebeler. What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
That blew Todd's "lock down by Harkness" theory completely out of the water.
It might be wise to actually know the case before you start making silly comments.
Btw I'm still waiting for your alternate timeline, which includes all the known facts but shows that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor later than they said. Without producing one you really haven't got much of anything.
Actually it does prove some things, just not what you think. He was back in front of the building within 2 1/2 minutes of the last shot. He should have seen Adams and Styles leave the back of the building, according to your estimates.
This actually proves they left later, around 12:35+ and then ran through the building to encounter Harkness and the building being shut down at 12:36 Good going, producing Barnett's testimony.
Mr. Liebeler.
You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwes
Anytime on the riddle.
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Actually it does prove some things, just not what you think. He was back in front of the building within 2 1/2 minutes of the last shot. He should have seen Adams and Styles leave the back of the building, according to your estimates.
This actually proves they left later, around 12:35+ and then ran through the building to encounter Harkness and the building being shut down at 12:36 Good going, producing Barnett's testimony.
Mr. Liebeler.
You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwes
Anytime on the riddle.
Actually it does prove some things, just not what you think. He was back in front of the building within 2 1/2 minutes of the last shot. He should have seen Adams and Styles leave the back of the building, according to your estimates.
No. This only shows that you don't understand my timeline and estimates. Adams and Styles were out of the building in less than a minute after the shots. They were gone by the time Barnett (who was mainly watching the fire escape on Houston) actually got to the back of the building and saw the cops, including the one who probably talked to Adams and told her to return to the building.
This actually proves they left later, around 12:35+ and then ran through the building to encounter Harkness and the building being shut down at 12:36 Good going, producing Barnett's testimony.
Complete BS. It proves nothing of the kind. If Adams and Styles had stayed on the 4th floor for 5 minutes or more after the shots they would have seen Truly and Baker come up, as Garner did, and they could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady, who entered the building some 5 minutes after the shots. Also, if the TSBD was already being locked down, when they came down, the cops would have stopped them when they tried to leave at the loading dock. And that, of course, did not happen.
What Barnett's testimony actually shows is that there were police officers at the back of the TSBD within two minutes after the shots, and probably even sooner, which makes it perfectly plausible for Adams and Styles to have run into one of those cops, on their way to the front of the building. Even more so, as Shelley and Lovelady were also at roughly the same location, west of the building, where Adams did actually see them.
Harkness wasn't even close to the back of the TSBD, at that time, so the assumption that Adams and Styles ran into Harkness is completely flawed and does not fit into a plausible timeline that actually works.
But thank you for showing us why you can not produce an alternate timeline that covers all the available evidence. You just can't make it work with your alternate reality.
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Mr. Barnett - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building.
Barnett's sergeant is Sergeant Howard.
Barnett has returned to near his original position and Howard approaches him from "north of Houston".
Presumably Howard is one of the officers Barnett sees behind the TSBD.
I can't find any statements from Sergeant Howard.
Inexplicably he is not asked to give testimony before the WC.
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Mr. Barnett - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building.
Barnett's sergeant is Sergeant Howard.
Barnett has returned to near his original position and Howard approaches him from "north of Houston".
Presumably Howard is one of the officers Barnett sees behind the TSBD.
I can't find any statements from Sergeant Howard.
Inexplicably he is not asked to give testimony before the WC.
Good observation.
It wouldn't have taken Barnett more than 30 seconds to run from the back of the building to the corner of Elm and Houston, where No. 8 is located on CE 354 https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_354.pdf
Which means there were cops at the back of the TSBD within 2 minutes after the shots and Howard may well have been one of them. Who most certainly wasn't one of them was Harkness, who did not get there until 12.36 at the earliest. By roughly that time, Styles had already re-entered the TSBD through the front entrance.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gjRK5WvG/willis08-Adams.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The above image is a crop from Willis 8
The lady in the red circle is Sandra Styles.
The lady in the yellow circle is Vicki Adams.
These identifications have been made by Linda Zambanini
If correct, it would be useful to try and nail down when this pic was taken.
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This is all a bit sketchy at the moment but it might be a way of determining how quickly Adams and Styles were at the front of the TSBD.
Below is another crop from Willis 8.
The red arrow highlights an area of the TSBD building visible through the crowd.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kjb2pcyr/willis08-no-car-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It seems to me we should be able to see Sawyer's car here, which he parked in front of the TSBD entrance. I believe the pic below shows Sawyer arriving at the TSBD, note how close to the front entrance his car is parked:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1Nq3cM8/Murray-Sawyer-arriving.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If Zambanini's identification of Adams and Styles is correct...
If it is Sawyer's car arriving at the TSBD...
If Sawyer's car us not visible in Willis 8 when it should be...
...then Willis 8 shows Adams and Styles outside the steps of the TSBD before Sawyer arrives there @ 12:34 pm.
I told you it was sketchy.
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I found this pic by Skaggs (I must once again thank Robin Unger for his invaluable contribution to JFK research)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbXJdXDk/Skaggs2b.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It appears to have been taken shortly after the Willis pic and now shows, what I presume to be, Sawyer's car parked outside the front of the TSBD entrance. Many of the same people are in this pic as in Willis including the woman identified as Vicki Adams (red arrow).
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I found this pic by Skaggs (I must once again thank Robin Unger for his invaluable contribution to JFK research)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbXJdXDk/Skaggs2b.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It appears to have been taken shortly after the Willis pic and now shows, what I presume to be, Sawyer's car parked outside the front of the TSBD entrance. Many of the same people are in this pic as in Willis including the woman identified as Vicki Adams (red arrow).
You may well be on to something here..
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.
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You may well be on to something here..
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.
More importantly, Sawyer gives his time of arrival around !2:34 pm.
If Linda's identification is correct it is possible the Willis pic shows Adams out front of the TSBD before 12:34 pm
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More importantly, Sawyer gives his time of arrival around !2:34 pm.
If Linda's identification is correct it is possible the Willis pic shows Adams out front of the TSBD before 12:34 pm
Sawyer says that he remembered a transmission on channel 2 saying that a gunman was seen in a TSBD window, but his memory is vague about the exact transmission. That would mark the latest time he was still in his car listening to the radio. The first such transmission on channel two is Haygood's at 12:35 (not 12:34):
Haygood: I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.
Dispatcher: 10-4. Get his name, address, telephone number there - all the information that you can from him. 12:35 p.m.
The next is Harkness' transmission at 12:36:
Dispatcher: Attention all emergency equipment, do no use Industrial Boulevard......12:36
Harkness: I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store.
In the Martin film, you can see Amos Euins riding on the back of Harkness' three-wheeler eastwards from behind the pergola. They're headed towards Houston on Old Elm. In the background, in front of the TSBD entrance, a car pulls in to park. That car looks like the one that you think is Sawyer's. Harkness remembered the sequence like this:
Mr. HARKNESS - I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.
Mr. BELIN - Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - When did you make that notation?
Mr. HARKNESS - Immediately after the shooting.
Mr. BELIN - Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. I turned.
Mr. BELIN - You turned what?
Mr. HARKNESS - After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.
So if Harkness made his 12:36 transmission before he put Euins on the motorcyle, and the car in the Martin film belongs to Sawyer, then Sawyer could not have parked in front of the Depository before 12:36
BTW, this is the best online version of the Martin film I can find. Euins and Harkness (+subsequent paleophotobomb) appear about 0:50 in:
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As for you, I keep noticing that you like to unilaterally declare yourself the victor. This habit says far more about you than it does those you like to pretend you've vanquished. And it implies that there's a large delta between where you put yourself in this world versus the place you really occupy.
Says the guy who just unilaterally declared that a single word written on a page of a transcript "matches" a signature on another page and that this is just automatically correct unless somebody proves that it doesn't. A common LN tactic.
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Sawyer says that he remembered a transmission on channel 2 saying that a gunman was seen in a TSBD window, but his memory is vague about the exact transmission. That would mark the latest time he was still in his car listening to the radio. The first such transmission on channel two is Haygood's at 12:35 (not 12:34):
Haygood: I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.
Dispatcher: 10-4. Get his name, address, telephone number there - all the information that you can from him. 12:35 p.m.
The next is Harkness' transmission at 12:36:
Dispatcher: Attention all emergency equipment, do no use Industrial Boulevard......12:36
Harkness: I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store.
In the Martin film, you can see Amos Euins riding on the back of Harkness' three-wheeler eastwards from behind the pergola. They're headed towards Houston on Old Elm. In the background, in front of the TSBD entrance, a car pulls in to park. That car looks like the one that you think is Sawyer's. Harkness remembered the sequence like this:
Mr. HARKNESS - I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.
Mr. BELIN - Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - When did you make that notation?
Mr. HARKNESS - Immediately after the shooting.
Mr. BELIN - Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. I turned.
Mr. BELIN - You turned what?
Mr. HARKNESS - After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.
So if Harkness made his 12:36 transmission before he put Euins on the motorcyle, and the car in the Martin film belongs to Sawyer, then Sawyer could not have parked in front of the Depository before 12:36
BTW, this is the best online version of the Martin film I can find. Euins and Harkness (+subsequent paleophotobomb) appear about 0:50 in:
None of this matters much if the women in the photograph are indeed Styles and Adams. Even if Sawyer parked his car at 12:36 instead of 12:34, the photo shows the women were already at the front of the building when that happened, which in turn means that your theory of them having stayed on the 4th floor until 12:36 is utterly debunked.
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Sawyer says that he remembered a transmission on channel 2 saying that a gunman was seen in a TSBD window, but his memory is vague about the exact transmission. That would mark the latest time he was still in his car listening to the radio. The first such transmission on channel two is Haygood's at 12:35 (not 12:34):
Haygood: I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.
Dispatcher: 10-4. Get his name, address, telephone number there - all the information that you can from him. 12:35 p.m.
The next is Harkness' transmission at 12:36:
Dispatcher: Attention all emergency equipment, do no use Industrial Boulevard......12:36
Harkness: I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store.
In the Martin film, you can see Amos Euins riding on the back of Harkness' three-wheeler eastwards from behind the pergola. They're headed towards Houston on Old Elm. In the background, in front of the TSBD entrance, a car pulls in to park. That car looks like the one that you think is Sawyer's. Harkness remembered the sequence like this:
Mr. HARKNESS - I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.
Mr. BELIN - Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - When did you make that notation?
Mr. HARKNESS - Immediately after the shooting.
Mr. BELIN - Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. I turned.
Mr. BELIN - You turned what?
Mr. HARKNESS - After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.
So if Harkness made his 12:36 transmission before he put Euins on the motorcyle, and the car in the Martin film belongs to Sawyer, then Sawyer could not have parked in front of the Depository before 12:36
BTW, this is the best online version of the Martin film I can find. Euins and Harkness (+subsequent paleophotobomb) appear about 0:50 in:
Nice one Mitch.
I was totally unaware of this most important synchronism.
As you point out, Harkness testifies to making his transmission and then taking Euins to Sawyer's car.
The transmission is at 12:36 and the Martin film shows Sawyer arriving as Harkness makes his way towards Sawyer's car.
This has important ramifications for Sawyer's testimony.
He testifies that he arrived outside the TSBD, talked to various officers then went upstairs to check the 4th floor before coming back down about 3 minutes later.
He arrives at 12:36 pm (not 12:34 pm)
Goes into the TSBD around 12:37 pm.
Comes back down around 12:40 pm.
It is not until 12:40 pm that he orders the lock down of the front entrance of the TSBD.
This appears to be confirmed by the Dallas Police transcripts that has a transmission from Sawyer at 12:40 pm
"We need more manpower down at the Texas Book Depository there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."
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Nice one Mitch.
I was totally unaware of this most important synchronism.
As you point out, Harkness testifies to making his transmission and then taking Euins to Sawyer's car.
The transmission is at 12:36 and the Martin film shows Sawyer arriving as Harkness makes his way towards Sawyer's car.
This has important ramifications for Sawyer's testimony.
He testifies that he arrived outside the TSBD, talked to various officers then went upstairs to check the 4th floor before coming back down about 3 minutes later.
He arrives at 12:36 pm (not 12:34 pm)
Goes into the TSBD around 12:37 pm.
Comes back down around 12:40 pm.
It is not until 12:40 pm that he orders the lock down of the front entrance of the TSBD.
This appears to be confirmed by the Dallas Police transcripts that has a transmission from Sawyer at 12:40 pm
"We need more manpower down at the Texas Book Depository there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."
Let's not forget that J.C. Bowles, who was in charge of the DPD dispatchers, told the HSCA that the dispatchers were calling the times from non-synchronized "Simplex" clocks which indicated an incorrect time and that it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. In other words, the time stamp of 12:36 may not be correct, which in turn means that it can not be used to determine the accuracy or inaccuracy of Sawyer's estimate.
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Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard shots?
Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?
Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?
Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that?
Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository?
Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.
If Willis 12 was taken at 12:33, then when was Willis 8 taken?
Btw Willis 7 shows the press bus going down Elm.
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Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard shots?
Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?
Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?
Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that?
Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository?
Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.
If Willis 12 was taken at 12:33, then when was Willis 8 taken?
Btw Willis 7 shows the press bus going down Elm.
Willis 12 wasn't taken at 12:33. Look at the photo. There is no crowd along either side of Elm, nor on the Dealey Plaza infield, nor is there anyone standing in and around the entrance to the TSBD. Compare that to any of the films or photos of the are around the Depository at that time. For that matter, look at any of the earlier Willis slides.
Willis and Belin are talking about when he heard the shots, not when Wills 12 was taken. Willis just remembered (incorrectly, as the McIntire photo shows) that it occurred at 12:33. Or, at least, it was 12:33 when Willis first looked up at the clock after the assassination.
Willis may have been referring only to the temperature when he said "the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.
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Willis 12 wasn't taken at 12:33. Look at the photo. There is no crowd along either side of Elm, nor on the Dealey Plaza infield, nor is there anyone standing in and around the entrance to the TSBD. Compare that to any of the films or photos of the are around the Depository at that time. For that matter, look at any of the earlier Willis slides.
Willis and Belin are talking about when he heard the shots, not when Wills 12 was taken. Willis just remembered (incorrectly, as the McIntire photo shows) that it occurred at 12:33. Or, at least, it was 12:33 when Willis first looked up at the clock after the assassination.
Willis may have been referring only to the temperature when he said "the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.
Fair enough, but Willis 7 shows the press bus in the motorcade going down Elm street, which happened shortly after the shots. It's reasonable to conclude that Willis 8 was taken not long after that.
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Fair enough, but Willis 7 shows the press bus in the motorcade going down Elm street, which happened shortly after the shots. It's reasonable to conclude that Willis 8 was taken not long after that.
I guess it depends on how you define "no long after." Could be a minute, could be many.
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Mr. Barnett - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building.
Barnett's sergeant is Sergeant Howard.
Barnett has returned to near his original position and Howard approaches him from "north of Houston".
Presumably Howard is one of the officers Barnett sees behind the TSBD.
I can't find any statements from Sergeant Howard.
Inexplicably he is not asked to give testimony before the WC.
I wondered who Howard was, and what his role was on Nov 22. I found it in Capt. Lawrence's exhibit #2, which lays out the various assignments for the motorcade. Howard was put in change of the detail that set out and enforced "No Parking" signs befor the motorcade, beginning at 7AM.
In the aftermath of the shooting, he appears in a conversation on channel 2:
290 (Howard) See if you can contact 125.
125 (Capt Lawrence) 290, I am at Parkland.
290 125, do you want us to stay on Industrial or where do you want us to go?
125 Stay at your location right now.
This conversation occurs between Brewer's 12:38 interchange with the dispatcher and the dispatcher's 12:40 reply to Batchelor. At about 12:39, Howard was still at least 2-3 blocks away from Dealey Plaza. Given that Howard expects Lawrence to know his position, it would seem that Howard was at an preassigned location. This in turn implies that Howard is near the Trade Mart, which was at Industrial and 35E. I figure it was quite some time after the shooting before he appeared to Barnett.
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I guess it depends on how you define "no long after." Could be a minute, could be many.
As you are still desperately trying to push the events back as much as possible in your customary way, just how many minutes would you prefer?
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I wondered who Howard was, and what his role was on Nov 22. I found it in Capt. Lawrence's exhibit #2, which lays out the various assignments for the motorcade. Howard was put in change of the detail that set out and enforced "No Parking" signs befor the motorcade, beginning at 7AM.
In the aftermath of the shooting, he appears in a conversation on channel 2:
290 (Howard) See if you can contact 125.
125 (Capt Lawrence) 290, I am at Parkland.
290 125, do you want us to stay on Industrial or where do you want us to go?
125 Stay at your location right now.
This conversation occurs between Brewer's 12:38 interchange with the dispatcher and the dispatcher's 12:40 reply to Batchelor. At about 12:39, Howard was still at least 2-3 blocks away from Dealey Plaza. Given that Howard expects Lawrence to know his position, it would seem that Howard was at an preassigned location. This in turn implies that Howard is near the Trade Mart, which was at Industrial and 35E. I figure it was quite some time after the shooting before he appeared to Barnett.
This really doesn't square with Barnett's testimony.
He is stood with Sergeant Howard when the Brennan comes up to them and all three head for the front entrance of the TSBD. Barnett puts a time of "no more than 3 minutes" between the time of the last shot and being posted on the front door of the TSBD.
I have been assuming the two officers in the TSBD doorway were Barnett and Howard. This would place the Willis pic between 3 and 6 minutes after the assassination (if my assumption is correct).
It may be possible to clarify when Willis 8 was taken if the officers in it can be identified.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vs3Sq5Zw/Willis-8.png) (https://postimages.org/)
There are two DPD officers in the doorway.
One DPD officer in the foreground.
Two motorcycle officers - one left, one right (I'm assuming the round white helmets belong to motorcycle police)
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This really doesn't square with Barnett's testimony.
He is stood with Sergeant Howard when the Brennan comes up to them and all three head for the front entrance of the TSBD. Barnett puts a time of "no more than 3 minutes" between the time of the last shot and being posted on the front door of the TSBD.
I have been assuming the two officers in the TSBD doorway were Barnett and Howard. This would place the Willis pic between 3 and 6 minutes after the assassination (if my assumption is correct).
It may be possible to clarify when Willis 8 was taken if the officers in it can be identified.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vs3Sq5Zw/Willis-8.png) (https://postimages.org/)
There are two DPD officers in the doorway.
One DPD officer in the foreground.
Two motorcycle officers - one left, one right (I'm assuming the round white helmets belong to motorcycle police)
It may be possible to clarify when Willis 8 was taken if the officers in it can be identified.
I had a similar idea re the two African-Americans on the stairs, one in a white shirt and the other, smaller one, in a red jacket.
I seem to recall that all the people on the TSBD stairs at the time of the shooting were identified. If that includes those two, it would be interesting to find out when they left the stairs, because they were clearly still there when Sawyer parked his car in front of the main enterance.
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This really doesn't square with Barnett's testimony.
He is stood with Sergeant Howard when the Brennan comes up to them and all three head for the front entrance of the TSBD. Barnett puts a time of "no more than 3 minutes" between the time of the last shot and being posted on the front door of the TSBD.
I have been assuming the two officers in the TSBD doorway were Barnett and Howard. This would place the Willis pic between 3 and 6 minutes after the assassination (if my assumption is correct).
It may be possible to clarify when Willis 8 was taken if the officers in it can be identified.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vs3Sq5Zw/Willis-8.png) (https://postimages.org/)
There are two DPD officers in the doorway.
One DPD officer in the foreground.
Two motorcycle officers - one left, one right (I'm assuming the round white helmets belong to motorcycle police)
The guys wearing white helmets, jodhpurs, and boots are riding two wheelers. In the photos and films, you'll see that the guys on three-wheelers are all wearing white hats rather than helmets. The patrol division guys are the ones with green shoulder tabs; traffic division officers have red tabs.
I know what you mean about Barnett's testimony. Something is odd in there about the Sergeant. But the channel 2 recording is what it is. The thing is, if you compare Barnett's description of Brennan's approach, Brennan doesn't mention a sergeant. However, Brennan does mention that Barnett led him to Forrest Sorrels at the front of the Depository. Sorrels returned to the TSBD about 12:45. Barnett leading Brennan to Sorrels would also indicate that Barnett's testimony covers a much longer span of time than he remembered.
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Let's recap
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately
<>
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Prior to her testimony, Adams told the investigators;
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;
"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"
and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"
In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot
And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;
"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.
And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noisy stairs.
Mitch Todd's claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor until at least 12:36, when police began locking down the building and an officer told Adams to return to the building is destroyed by the testimony of Officer Barnett, who ran to the back of the building, after hearing the shots and saw officers searching the railroad cars, which means there were officers in the railway yard prior to the building being locked down.
Todd's claim also does not match with Shelley's testimony who said that before he and Lovelady re-entered the TSBD he saw cars being searched in the railway area, clearly indicating police activity very soon after the shots were fire.
And then we have Adams saying in her testimony;
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
How in the world can Adams see Molina and Davis when they re-entered the building shortly after the shots?
Most of this is retread. But I wanted to single this one statement out:
Mitch Todd's claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor until at least 12:36, when police began locking down the building and an officer told Adams to return to the building is destroyed by the testimony of Officer Barnett, who ran to the back of the building, after hearing the shots and saw officers searching the railroad cars, which means there were officers in the railway yard prior to the building being locked down.
I have no idea why Weidmann thinks that Barnett's testimony "destroys" anything. While he says that he "looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars," he also said "but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building."
So the guys that Barnett sees in the rail yards aren't interested in the TSBD, or in watching it, which is what Martin needs to happen. The Darnell and Martin films show the law enforcement activity west of the Depository in the immediate aftermath of the assassination; it's focused on the North-South tracks west of Bower's tower, not near the TSBD. The Darnell film also shows the cars being searched, a line of passenger cars west of the parking lot.
Then it gets kind of confusing:
Mr. BARNETT: "...So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching."
Mr. LIEBELER: You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on your Exhibit No. 354?
The Number "5" on CE354 is at the West end of Old Elm, BTW.
So, Barnett first says that he's the only guy watching the back of the building, then says there were other officers watching the back door. That doesn't exactly make sense to begin with, but it leads to another problem aside from the self-contradiction. Multiple officers at the rear of the Depository would imply that this was much later on, when there were enough officers to put a team of guys out back.
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The guys wearing white helmets, jodhpurs, and boots are riding two wheelers. In the photos and films, you'll see that the guys on three-wheelers are all wearing white hats rather than helmets. The patrol division guys are the ones with green shoulder tabs; traffic division officers have red tabs.
So the officer in the foreground of Willis 8 would be a traffic division officer (red tabs)?
I know what you mean about Barnett's testimony. Something is odd in there about the Sergeant. But the channel 2 recording is what it is.
It's hard to know what to think.
It seems unlikely Barnett wouldn't know his own sergeant.
It seems equally unlikely Howard would be around the TSBD if his assignment was near the Trade Mart.
A scenario where Howard rushes away from the scene of the assassination to pick up some "No Parking" signs elsewhere isn't going to fly.
The thing is, if you compare Barnett's description of Brennan's approach, Brennan doesn't mention a sergeant. However, Brennan does mention that Barnett led him to Forrest Sorrels at the front of the Depository. Sorrels returned to the TSBD about 12:45. Barnett leading Brennan to Sorrels would also indicate that Barnett's testimony covers a much longer span of time than he remembered.
Barnett said that all three of them rushed to the TSBD steps and, more importantly, he kept Brennan with him on the steps.
This seems to be confirmed by various Murray pics:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qR6LCJ2b/Murray-Brennan-2-arrow.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the above pic Brennan (arrow) leans against the wall of TSBD entrance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yHDdgkL/Murray-Brennan-arrow.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Brennan now seems to be moving down the steps
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbMkmZwT/Murray-Brennan-3.png) (https://postimages.org/)share image (https://postimages.org/)
If you look closely in the above pic you can make out (who I assume to be) Brennan and Sawyer in Sawyer's car
Sorrels supports Barnett's testimony with his own:
"I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan."
It appears Brennan was waiting on the steps when Sorrels arrived.
One thing I have just noticed (this is a real testament to my powers of observation), Brennan cannot be seen in Willis 8 or Skaggs 2.
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Quote by Dan
"
"I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan."
They could ask for a stenographer tp get the names witnesses but couldn't do the same when interviewing Oswald.
What a strange Police Dept.
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Most of this is retread. But I wanted to single this one statement out:
Mitch Todd's claim that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor until at least 12:36, when police began locking down the building and an officer told Adams to return to the building is destroyed by the testimony of Officer Barnett, who ran to the back of the building, after hearing the shots and saw officers searching the railroad cars, which means there were officers in the railway yard prior to the building being locked down.
I have no idea why Weidmann thinks that Barnett's testimony "destroys" anything. While he says that he "looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars," he also said "but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building."
So the guys that Barnett sees in the rail yards aren't interested in the TSBD, or in watching it, which is what Martin needs to happen. The Darnell and Martin films show the law enforcement activity west of the Depository in the immediate aftermath of the assassination; it's focused on the North-South tracks west of Bower's tower, not near the TSBD. The Darnell film also shows the cars being searched, a line of passenger cars west of the parking lot.
Then it gets kind of confusing:
Mr. BARNETT: "...So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching."
Mr. LIEBELER: You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on your Exhibit No. 354?
The Number "5" on CE354 is at the West end of Old Elm, BTW.
So, Barnett first says that he's the only guy watching the back of the building, then says there were other officers watching the back door. That doesn't exactly make sense to begin with, but it leads to another problem aside from the self-contradiction. Multiple officers at the rear of the Depository would imply that this was much later on, when there were enough officers to put a team of guys out back.
I have no idea why Weidmann thinks that Barnett's testimony "destroys" anything.
Of course you don't. You're an LN and will never accept anything that does not match your narrative.
So the guys that Barnett sees in the rail yards aren't interested in the TSBD, or in watching it
And there's another one of Todd's selfserving, yet erroneous, assumptions. The fact of the matter is that Barnett confirms that there were policemen behind the TSBD within two minutes of the shooting. Todd doesn't know what they were interested in and I would argue they were most likely interested in anything and everything out of the ordinary, like for instance a guy running out the back of a building. But none of that really matters.
They don't have to be particularly interested in the TSBD, nor is it a requirement for a cop at a crime scene, to be particularly interested in something, to tell some civilians what to do or where to go. There is nothing irregular or strange about a cop who sees two women coming from a building telling them to go back to that building. And that's exactly what happened to Adams and Styles. If the cop had been part of some lock down team, as Todd prefers to claim, he would have told them to go back in the same way they came out. But as this was a cop checking out the railway area, he had no problem with Adams and Styles going to the front of the building after he told them to return to the building.
The Darnell and Martin films show the law enforcement activity west of the Depository in the immediate aftermath of the assassination; it's focused on the North-South tracks west of Bower's tower, not near the TSBD.
And there's is yet another assumption. Unless the Darnell and Martin films show us all the cops in the railway area, you don't know where, if anywhere in particular, the search was focused on, nor do you know if there were officers near the TSBD that were not recorded on film.
No matter how much you want to twist and turn this thing, Barnett is clear; after the shots he ran away from Elm, down Houston, mainly watching the fire escape of the TSBD. When he came near the back of the building he saw other officers and then ran back to the corner of Elm and Houston where he arrived an estimated 2,5 minutes after the shots. The meaning of this is simple; there were officers behind the TSBD within two minutes of the shots.
So, Barnett first says that he's the only guy watching the back of the building, then says there were other officers watching the back door. That doesn't exactly make sense to begin with, but it leads to another problem aside from the self-contradiction. Multiple officers at the rear of the Depository would imply that this was much later on, when there were enough officers to put a team of guys out back.
And yet again another selfserving assumption. How in the world does Barnett saying that there were officers watching the back door imply that it was much later on? The answer is of course that it doesn't. When Barnett talks about officers he could be speaking about as little as two men.
Btw where does Barnett actually say that he was the only guy watching the back of the building? In his testimony he said he thought he was the only one watching the building, but that was after he saw officers in the front, going west on Old Elm street, who he believed were not entering or watching the building.
Also, there is no contradiction in what Barnett said.
Mr. BARNETT - I went looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.
Mr. LIEBELER - Going west down the little street there in front of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.
Barnett clearly says he was looking towards the front of the building when he saw officers who he believed were not going into the building or even watching the building. As he had seen officers watching the back door (presumably of the TSBD) he ran to the front of the building and then decided he had been wrong about no officers going inside the building or watching it at the front
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Good observation.
It wouldn't have taken Barnett more than 30 seconds to run from the back of the building to the corner of Elm and Houston, where No. 8 is located on CE 354 https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_354.pdf
Which means there were cops at the back of the TSBD within 2 minutes after the shots and Howard may well have been one of them. Who most certainly wasn't one of them was Harkness, who did not get there until 12.36 at the earliest. By roughly that time, Styles had already re-entered the TSBD through the front entrance.
Probably less than 30 seconds if Barnett was fast enough.
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So the officer in the foreground of Willis 8 would be a traffic division officer (red tabs)?
The one in the midground looks to be a traffic division guy. The one in the immediate foreground on the right is a patrol division officer.
It's hard to know what to think.
It seems unlikely Barnett wouldn't know his own sergeant.
It seems equally unlikely Howard would be around the TSBD if his assignment was near the Trade Mart.
A scenario where Howard rushes away from the scene of the assassination to pick up some "No Parking" signs elsewhere isn't going to fly.
I double checked the various Lumpkin/Batchelor/Lawrence exhibits, just to make sure there wasn't a second Sgt Howard in the DPD. There was indeed only one Sgt Howard. There was a Ptm Howard in the patrol division, but he wouldn't fit Barnett's description. I also looked at the normal November assignments/org chart in Batchelor ex. 5002. Barnett wasn't under Howard or in even in the same subdivision as Howard. Barnett was also not normally under Harkness, nor in the same group. Barnett doesn't appear to have been assigned to the 11/22 motorcade no parking group working under Howard. Given this, there seems to be no reason for Barnett to refer to Howard as "my sergeant" in any case. Which leads to the question, what is he really describing? Did he just misname someone else? Or is he conflating one event with another that happened much later?
Barnett said that all three of them rushed to the TSBD steps and, more importantly, he kept Brennan with him on the steps.
This seems to be confirmed by various Murray pics:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qR6LCJ2b/Murray-Brennan-2-arrow.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the above pic Brennan (arrow) leans against the wall of TSBD entrance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yHDdgkL/Murray-Brennan-arrow.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Brennan now seems to be moving down the steps
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbMkmZwT/Murray-Brennan-3.png) (https://postimages.org/)share image (https://postimages.org/)
If you look closely in the above pic you can make out (who I assume to be) Brennan and Sawyer in Sawyer's car
Sorrels supports Barnett's testimony with his own:
"I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan."
It appears Brennan was waiting on the steps when Sorrels arrived.
One thing I have just noticed (this is a real testament to my powers of observation), Brennan cannot be seen in Willis 8 or Skaggs 2.
If that is Sawyer and Brennan in the car, do you think that the photo would have been taken at about the time that Sawyer radioed in with the first description of the suspect in the shooting at 12:44? And what would that mean for Barnett's timing?
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Jim Murray took photos from the grassy infield that include Marilyn Sitzman when she was interviewed by a news reporter near the Zapruder pedestal. He then took a series of close up photos of the action about the south Elm storm drain from 12:39-12:40 (Trask “That Day in Dallas”). From there Murray climbed the south knoll near the triple underpass, at approximately 10:40-10:41. Then he followed the action at the TSBD doorway, capturing the image of Howard Brennan standing at the doorway’s east wall. I estimate that time could be about 12:41-12:42. Robin Unger’s photo site includes this photo with a print media caption indicating 12:42. This photo does not appear to yet include Marilyn Sitzman at the sidewalk corner in two photos Murray took at this time.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_10435.jpg
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2013.msg54679.html#msg54679
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Murray.jpg
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The one in the midground looks to be a traffic division guy. The one in the immediate foreground on the right is a patrol division officer.
I double checked the various Lumpkin/Batchelor/Lawrence exhibits, just to make sure there wasn't a second Sgt Howard in the DPD. There was indeed only one Sgt Howard. There was a Ptm Howard in the patrol division, but he wouldn't fit Barnett's description. I also looked at the normal November assignments/org chart in Batchelor ex. 5002. Barnett wasn't under Howard or in even in the same subdivision as Howard. Barnett was also not normally under Harkness, nor in the same group. Barnett doesn't appear to have been assigned to the 11/22 motorcade no parking group working under Howard. Given this, there seems to be no reason for Barnett to refer to Howard as "my sergeant" in any case. Which leads to the question, what is he really describing? Did he just misname someone else? Or is he conflating one event with another that happened much later?
If that is Sawyer and Brennan in the car, do you think that the photo would have been taken at about the time that Sawyer radioed in with the first description of the suspect in the shooting at 12:44? And what would that mean for Barnett's timing?
The clip below shows the moment Sawyer takes Brennan to the car.
In the background the large gates of the TSBD are closed.
In the Martin film these gates are open.
This seems to back up the assertion that the pic of Brennan in the car was at some point just before Sawyer makes the call with the suspect's description.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsmDtNPh/Aluea-Sawyer-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
LATER EDIT:
In the above clip there are two police officers. I am very confident the one with the cigarette in his hand is Sawyer.
The other, judging by the insignia on his sleeve, is a sergeant. Could this be Sergeant Howard? If not, then maybe Harkness.
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The clip below shows the moment Sawyer takes Brennan to the car.
In the background the large gates of the TSBD are closed.
In the Martin film these gates are open.
This seems to back up the assertion that the pic of Brennan in the car was at some point just before Sawyer makes the call with the suspect's description.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsmDtNPh/Aluea-Sawyer-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
LATER EDIT:
In the above clip there are two police officers. I am very confident the one with the cigarette in his hand is Sawyer.
The other, judging by the insignia on his sleeve, is a sergeant. Could this be Sergeant Howard? If not, then maybe Harkness.
I can't see that it would be Howard. At 12:40, he's told to stay at his location on Industrial. His duties are attached to the motorcade route, so he's near the Trade Mart. Even if he left immediately after that broadcast, it would take several minutes to get to Elm and Houston, dismount, and hoof it to the front of the TSBD in time for the film to be taken.
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The clip below shows the moment Sawyer takes Brennan to the car.
In the background the large gates of the TSBD are closed.
In the Martin film these gates are open.
This seems to back up the assertion that the pic of Brennan in the car was at some point just before Sawyer makes the call with the suspect's description.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsmDtNPh/Aluea-Sawyer-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
LATER EDIT:
In the above clip there are two police officers. I am very confident the one with the cigarette in his hand is Sawyer.
The other, judging by the insignia on his sleeve, is a sergeant. Could this be Sergeant Howard? If not, then maybe Harkness.
The sergeant in the above clip is not Harkness.
In the still below, taken from the Martin film, Harkness does not have a patch on his shoulder but the sergeant in the film does have one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/05M6XTpc/Harkness-in-Martin-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
How many sergeants were on duty that day?
LATER EDIT:
What's the difference between the officers in the white caps and those in the black caps?
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The one in the midground looks to be a traffic division guy. The one in the immediate foreground on the right is a patrol division officer.
I double checked the various Lumpkin/Batchelor/Lawrence exhibits, just to make sure there wasn't a second Sgt Howard in the DPD. There was indeed only one Sgt Howard. There was a Ptm Howard in the patrol division, but he wouldn't fit Barnett's description. I also looked at the normal November assignments/org chart in Batchelor ex. 5002. Barnett wasn't under Howard or in even in the same subdivision as Howard. Barnett was also not normally under Harkness, nor in the same group. Barnett doesn't appear to have been assigned to the 11/22 motorcade no parking group working under Howard. Given this, there seems to be no reason for Barnett to refer to Howard as "my sergeant" in any case. Which leads to the question, what is he really describing? Did he just misname someone else? Or is he conflating one event with another that happened much later?
If that is Sawyer and Brennan in the car, do you think that the photo would have been taken at about the time that Sawyer radioed in with the first description of the suspect in the shooting at 12:44? And what would that mean for Barnett's timing?
"I also looked at the normal November assignments/org chart in Batchelor ex. 5002. Barnett wasn't under Howard or in even in the same subdivision as Howard. Barnett was also not normally under Harkness, nor in the same group. Barnett doesn't appear to have been assigned to the 11/22 motorcade no parking group working under Howard."
Had a quick look through Batchelor's Personnel Assignment list (Ex 5002) myself and came across this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1rGyyqQ/Batchelor-Assignment-list.png) (https://postimages.org/)
According to this list Barnett was assigned to Traffic Division, third platoon, under sergeant Campbell. This platoon started their assignment at 3:00 PM and finished at 11:00 PM.
But we know Barnet was on assignment before 3:00 PM as he was present for the assassination at 12:30 PM. Barnett makes this clear in his WC testimony:
"We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. Then when the President came by, I heard three shots."
Barnett is at his given assignment at 10:00 PM. This means he was actually with the second platoon whose assignment was from 10:00 PM until 6:00 PM.
The sergeant of the second platoon was E B Howard.
So Howard was Barnett's sergeant that day.
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Jim Murray took photos from the grassy infield that include Marilyn Sitzman when she was interviewed by a news reporter near the Zapruder pedestal. He then took a series of close up photos of the action about the south Elm storm drain from 12:39-12:40 (Trask “That Day in Dallas”). From there Murray climbed the south knoll near the triple underpass, at approximately 10:40-10:41. Then he followed the action at the TSBD doorway, capturing the image of Howard Brennan standing at the doorway’s east wall. I estimate that time could be about 12:41-12:42. Robin Unger’s photo site includes this photo with a print media caption indicating 12:42. This photo does not appear to yet include Marilyn Sitzman at the sidewalk corner in two photos Murray took at this time.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_10435.jpg
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2013.msg54679.html#msg54679
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Murray.jpg
There is a batch of Murray pics taken where the Elm St extension runs into the car park towards the railroad tracks. In this one I believe we see Amos Euins (circled):
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3m8yT2t/Murray-Euins-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)host pictures (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvtLT8kP/Murray-Euins-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This puts this pic at before 12:36 PM when wee see Euins being whisked away from this area by Harkness in the Martin film. Here is a Murray pic of the area we see Harkness taking Euins away. Not the large gates of the TSBD are open:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dm32wr9x/Murray-Elm.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The reason I keep mentioning the large gates is because of Mooney's testimony:
"Mr. Ball.
Were the doors open?
Mr. Mooney.
They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.
So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.
We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance."
It is safe to assume that at the time of the assassination these gates were open until Mooney had them closed. The Murray pics above are before the gates are closed, the Alyea clip of Sawyer escorting Brennan to the car is after the gates are closed, so the gates provide a very basic timestamp. Kind of.
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There is a batch of Murray pics taken where the Elm St extension runs into the car park towards the railroad tracks. In this one I believe we see Amos Euins (circled):
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3m8yT2t/Murray-Euins-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)host pictures (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvtLT8kP/Murray-Euins-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This puts this pic at before 12:36 PM when wee see Euins being whisked away from this area by Harkness in the Martin film. Here is a Murray pic of the area we see Harkness taking Euins away. Not the large gates of the TSBD are open:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dm32wr9x/Murray-Elm.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The reason I keep mentioning the large gates is because of Mooney's testimony:
"Mr. Ball.
Were the doors open?
Mr. Mooney.
They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.
So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.
We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance."
It is safe to assume that at the time of the assassination these gates were open until Mooney had them closed. The Murray pics above are before the gates are closed, the Alyea clip of Sawyer escorting Brennan to the car is after the gates are closed, so the gates provide a very basic timestamp. Kind of.
Jim Murray captured the closed gate from the south knoll at about 10:40-10:41. The 3D renderings show the perspective view of the open versus closed gate, from an approximate location of Murray.
(https://i.imgur.com/adJJ2rN.jpg)
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Jim Murray captured the closed gate from the south knoll at about 10:40-10:41. The 3D renderings show the perspective view of the open versus closed gate, from an approximate location of Murray.
(https://i.imgur.com/adJJ2rN.jpg)
That's a great spot James but how do you know it's around 12:40 - 12:41 PM
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In the Dillard pic below the red arrow points out the space where the "red gates" are (slightly obscured by, what I assume is, the Stemmons sign).
We can't see the diamond pattern on the gates because they are wide open so it is just a black space.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbsCPbNx/Dillard-Gates-open.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the Allen pic below the same space is pointed out by a red arrow.
Again, we can't see the diamond pattern on the gates so they are wide open.
The difference in this pic is that the Hertz clock reads 12:40
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwtLbmw8/Allen-Walthers-arrow.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
So we know the gates were open at 12:40
This means the film clip above with Sawyer and Brennan was definitely after 12:40 PM as the gates are closed.
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That's a great spot James but how do you know it's around 12:40 - 12:41 PM
Thanks Dan,
I put the time at 12:40-12:41 based on the Murray photo taken sometime after the clock struck 12:40 and Murray could have reached the south knoll area by 12:41. And that time range fits with the Murray photo of the TSBD south face at 12:42.
My peristyle wall shadow study is consistent with 12:41. See my 2019 post about using the peristyle wall shadow for time estimates from 12:30 on for at least 15 minutes.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2013.msg54679.html#msg54679
I seem to be miss-remembering Mooney or someone else mentioning the time of the gate closing at 12:40. I had no luck today finding such a reference though.
Your finding the Allen photo taken at 12:40 showing the gate open is a good info.
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The sergeant in the above clip is not Harkness.
In the still below, taken from the Martin film, Harkness does not have a patch on his shoulder but the sergeant in the film does have one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/05M6XTpc/Harkness-in-Martin-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
In the Hughes film, you see Harkness walk across the frame wearing red shoulder tabs. Something of a contradiction, eh?
In the photos taken of DP in the aftermath of the shooting, you'll see a number of officers wearing Ike jackets. I was wondering if Harkness had one on his trike, and put it on before he and King tore west on Main. At first, I thought that might be the case. Maybe it still is. But then I noticed something about Harkness' uniform in the Hughes film. It looks like his shirt is about a half size too big for him, draping forwards over his torso. His chevrons, DPD shoulder badge, and red tabs are all riding well forwards. The tabs themselves appear to be riding the front of Harkness' trapezius rather than atop it, pointing forwards more than upwards. In that position, they may not have been readily visible at the angle shown in the Martin film.
How many sergeants were on duty that day?
In Dealey Plaza? Only Harkness. The next closest one I know of offhand was Bellah who was on Stemmons where the Northbound on ramp from Elm merged into the freeway proper. IIRC, there were only two or three sergeants assigned to the parade route downtown.
LATER EDIT:
What's the difference between the officers in the white caps and those in the black caps?
I've heard a few different stories as to the meaning of the white hats. Most of these say that the traffic division guys wore them while out on duty. I suspect they did so to increase their visibility in traffic. After all, a great deal of their jobs involved standing in the street, and I know other police departments did the same or similar for their traffic cops for just that reason. I've also heard that the higher-ups, like Curry and the assistant chiefs, also wore the white hats. But that may only have been for ceremonial reasons.
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"I also looked at the normal November assignments/org chart in Batchelor ex. 5002. Barnett wasn't under Howard or in even in the same subdivision as Howard. Barnett was also not normally under Harkness, nor in the same group. Barnett doesn't appear to have been assigned to the 11/22 motorcade no parking group working under Howard."
Had a quick look through Batchelor's Personnel Assignment list (Ex 5002) myself and came across this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1rGyyqQ/Batchelor-Assignment-list.png) (https://postimages.org/)
According to this list Barnett was assigned to Traffic Division, third platoon, under sergeant Campbell. This platoon started their assignment at 3:00 PM and finished at 11:00 PM.
But we know Barnet was on assignment before 3:00 PM as he was present for the assassination at 12:30 PM. Barnett makes this clear in his WC testimony:
"We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. Then when the President came by, I heard three shots."
Barnett is at his given assignment at 10:00 PM. This means he was actually with the second platoon whose assignment was from 10:00 PM until 6:00 PM.
The sergeant of the second platoon was E B Howard.
So Howard was Barnett's sergeant that day.
Batchelor ex. 5002 is a list of the normal assignments for November, 1963. But November 22 was anything but a normal day, and required massive adjustments to the assignment roster to deploy enough men to cover the motorcade route and the Trade Mart. The assignments for Nov 22 are found in the Lawrence exhibits, and they explicitly put Barnett under Harkness.
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In the Hughes film, you see Harkness walk across the frame wearing red shoulder tabs. Something of a contradiction, eh?
In the photos taken of DP in the aftermath of the shooting, you'll see a number of officers wearing Ike jackets. I was wondering if Harkness had one on his trike, and put it on before he and King tore west on Main. At first, I thought that might be the case. Maybe it still is. But then I noticed something about Harkness' uniform in the Hughes film. It looks like his shirt is about a half size too big for him, draping forwards over his torso. His chevrons, DPD shoulder badge, and red tabs are all riding well forwards. The tabs themselves appear to be riding the front of Harkness' trapezius rather than atop it, pointing forwards more than upwards. In that position, they may not have been readily visible at the angle shown in the Martin film.
Once again Mitch I have to bow to your superior knowledge of the film record regarding this case. I have seen the Hughes film so many times and not made the connection with Harkness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4JvP0m1/Harkness-in-Hughes.png) (https://postimages.org/)
As you point out, the front of his shirt seems to slump forward, the red shoulder tabs are noticeably forward and I can see how they might not be seen in the Martin film.
I suspected he was wearing glasses in the Martin film but couldn't get a clear shot of it and thought it might just be some kind of artefact on the film. But here we can clearly see that Harkness wears glasses.
However, this takes us back to square one.
The point I was making in my earlier post was that Harkness wasn't the sergeant seen with Sawyer in front of the TSBD in the Alyea clip. You have demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that the sergeant in front of the steps is not Harkness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsmDtNPh/Aluea-Sawyer-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
So who is this sergeant?
The only clue is Barnett's testimony, that the sergeant was Howard and that they both went to the front of the TSBD, exactly where we see the sergeant in the Alyea clip.
There seems to be no other credible candidate for this sergeant.
In Dealey Plaza? Only Harkness. The next closest one I know of offhand was Bellah who was on Stemmons where the Northbound on ramp from Elm merged into the freeway proper. IIRC, there were only two or three sergeants assigned to the parade route downtown.
Bellah was a cycle cop and would have been wearing a rounded white helmet so it's not him in the Alyea clip.
It's definitely not Harkness.
It can only be Howard.
I've heard a few different stories as to the meaning of the white hats. Most of these say that the traffic division guys wore them while out on duty. I suspect they did so to increase their visibility in traffic. After all, a great deal of their jobs involved standing in the street, and I know other police departments did the same or similar for their traffic cops for just that reason. I've also heard that the higher-ups, like Curry and the assistant chiefs, also wore the white hats. But that may only have been for ceremonial reasons.
It may just be to define between Traffic and Patrol divisions.
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Once again Mitch I have to bow to your superior knowledge of the film record regarding this case. I have seen the Hughes film so many times and not made the connection with Harkness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4JvP0m1/Harkness-in-Hughes.png) (https://postimages.org/)
As you point out, the front of his shirt seems to slump forward, the red shoulder tabs are noticeably forward and I can see how they might not be seen in the Martin film.
I suspected he was wearing glasses in the Martin film but couldn't get a clear shot of it and thought it might just be some kind of artefact on the film. But here we can clearly see that Harkness wears glasses.
However, this takes us back to square one.
The point I was making in my earlier post was that Harkness wasn't the sergeant seen with Sawyer in front of the TSBD in the Alyea clip. You have demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that the sergeant in front of the steps is not Harkness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsmDtNPh/Aluea-Sawyer-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
So who is this sergeant?
The only clue is Barnett's testimony, that the sergeant was Howard and that they both went to the front of the TSBD, exactly where we see the sergeant in the Alyea clip.
There seems to be no other credible candidate for this sergeant.
Bellah was a cycle cop and would have been wearing a rounded white helmet so it's not him in the Alyea clip.
It's definitely not Harkness.
It can only be Howard.
Go back to the channel two radio traffic. At 12:39-12:40, Howard reports that he is at Industrial. Given the context of the motorcade, and Howard's relationship to it, Howard must be at Industrial & I-35E by the Trade Mart. At that time, Howard is told to stay at his position. It would take the Sergeant at least 5 minutes to start up his motor, make it to Dealey Plaza, shut down, dismount, and appear at the front entrance. It's just possible to get him there by 12:45, but only just, and only if he completely discarded his orders to remain on Industrial.
I don't see any other traffic involving Howard in the "official" channel two transcript. He also doesn't reappear in O'Dell's version of the channel two recording. He seems to have stayed in place for a while on Industrial, at least as far as the radio traffic can tell us.
As for other Sergeants, Simpson says he's heading towards the TSBD at 12:43, but he's in charge of the Lemon avenue stretch of the route, so he's going to be a few minutes coming. It's hard to see how he could get to the front of the TSBD by 12:45. Campbell headed up the effort along Main between Harwood and Field. He's close enough to get to Elm and Houston relatively quickly. His second assignment WRT the motorcade is to report to the Trade Mart after the motorcade has passed by his original station, so he might have already started heading towards the TSBD even before it became the hub of attention beginning at 12:35.
Or, maybe events shown in the clip happened later that either of us have been thinking.
[The white hats] may just be to define between Traffic and Patrol divisions.
Maybe.
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Once again Mitch I have to bow to your superior knowledge of the film record regarding this case. I have seen the Hughes film so many times and not made the connection with Harkness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4JvP0m1/Harkness-in-Hughes.png) (https://postimages.org/)
As you point out, the front of his shirt seems to slump forward, the red shoulder tabs are noticeably forward and I can see how they might not be seen in the Martin film.
I suspected he was wearing glasses in the Martin film but couldn't get a clear shot of it and thought it might just be some kind of artefact on the film. But here we can clearly see that Harkness wears glasses.
However, this takes us back to square one.
The point I was making in my earlier post was that Harkness wasn't the sergeant seen with Sawyer in front of the TSBD in the Alyea clip. You have demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that the sergeant in front of the steps is not Harkness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsmDtNPh/Aluea-Sawyer-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
So who is this sergeant?
The only clue is Barnett's testimony, that the sergeant was Howard and that they both went to the front of the TSBD, exactly where we see the sergeant in the Alyea clip.
There seems to be no other credible candidate for this sergeant.
Bellah was a cycle cop and would have been wearing a rounded white helmet so it's not him in the Alyea clip.
It's definitely not Harkness.
It can only be Howard.
It may just be to define between Traffic and Patrol divisions.
Harkness was 42 in 1963.
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White caps denote members of the Traffic division, and an Inspector rank officer. Marvin Wise testified there were either 4 inspector ranked officers at the DPD at the time of the assassination, or that 4 of them were on duty, that day, I can't remember which.
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White caps denote members of the Traffic division, and an Inspector rank officer. Marvin Wise testified there were either 4 inspector ranked officers at the DPD at the time of the assassination, or that 4 of them were on duty, that day, I can't remember which.
I believe it was that 4 of them were on duty because Wise said there were 3 other officers with him.
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White caps denote members of the Traffic division, and an Inspector rank officer. Marvin Wise testified there were either 4 inspector ranked officers at the DPD at the time of the assassination, or that 4 of them were on duty, that day, I can't remember which.
Browsing Batchelor Exhibit 5002, and can only find there were "Inspectors of Police" in November 1963: Sawyer, Putnam, Jr, and Kockos.
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Go back to the channel two radio traffic. At 12:39-12:40, Howard reports that he is at Industrial. Given the context of the motorcade, and Howard's relationship to it, Howard must be at Industrial & I-35E by the Trade Mart. At that time, Howard is told to stay at his position. It would take the Sergeant at least 5 minutes to start up his motor, make it to Dealey Plaza, shut down, dismount, and appear at the front entrance. It's just possible to get him there by 12:45, but only just, and only if he completely discarded his orders to remain on Industrial.
I don't see any other traffic involving Howard in the "official" channel two transcript. He also doesn't reappear in O'Dell's version of the channel two recording. He seems to have stayed in place for a while on Industrial, at least as far as the radio traffic can tell us.
As for other Sergeants, Simpson says he's heading towards the TSBD at 12:43, but he's in charge of the Lemon avenue stretch of the route, so he's going to be a few minutes coming. It's hard to see how he could get to the front of the TSBD by 12:45. Campbell headed up the effort along Main between Harwood and Field. He's close enough to get to Elm and Houston relatively quickly. His second assignment WRT the motorcade is to report to the Trade Mart after the motorcade has passed by his original station, so he might have already started heading towards the TSBD even before it became the hub of attention beginning at 12:35.
Or, maybe events shown in the clip happened later that either of us have been thinking.
Maybe.
I'm looking through the transcript of DPD tapes for channel 2 and can't find anything for Howard.
Am I missing something?
(https://i.postimg.cc/85pTtZms/transcript-12-38.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhWrZLxW/transcript-12-40.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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I'm looking through the transcript of DPD tapes for channel 2 and can't find anything for Howard.
Am I missing something?
(https://i.postimg.cc/85pTtZms/transcript-12-38.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhWrZLxW/transcript-12-40.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Consult the O'Dell version of the Channel 2 recording. That's the gold standard for channel 2.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/zfqhXyzh/4-inspectors.jpg)
I was fairly sure I had a document naming all four, but haven't found it.
I am curious to know who this officer is talking to the mystery person in the doorway. Looks like a senior officer, possibly one of these Inspectors (I noticed he's wearing a white shirt & possibly a formal suit, traffic cops with white caps appear to have normal dark shirts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5HgGwSF/inspector.jpg)
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Crops of Allen pictures.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpKkCM3W/steps.jpg)
Probably the same [unknown] officer that was speaking with the mystery man similar in appearance to Oswald. He appears to have been positioned in the TSBD doorway for a while.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTj26cGY/a-captain-6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht8MKCQP/a-captain5.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fz9NnCSd/4-frames.jpg)
Not sure if the same guy in the TSBD doorway was with Oswald when he was shot by Ruby.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1RF5T3h/oswald-shot.jpg)
Both have a faint slanted line down their cheek underneath the right eye