JFK Assassination Forum

If you are going to postulate that the sound of a single shot could reverberate for 2 seconds or more, the burden is on you to prove that.

I have.  I cited evidence from Mary Woodward. You just said she must be wrong-that she did not hear what she swore she heard. I provided other evidence that the shots were in that kind of rapid succession. 

You have provided nothing except your interpretation of equivocal head turns in the zfilm and you suggest that all that evidence must be wrong.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how Oswald shot JBC in the back at a time JBC had spun around and was facing him.

The shot occurred with JBC in that position. Nellie told Dr. Shires that he was turned around to the right when he was hit in the back. Shires commented that this would explain why the back of his forearm was turned toward his chest.  JBC thought he had started to turn back around when he was hit but could not say for sure how far he had gotten.

Gayle Newman said the second shot sounded after the car had been 10 feet from her. She saw that JBC grabbed his chest and lay back:


In her first interview by Jay Watson of WFAA TV within an hour or so of the assassination (before it had been announced that the President was dead) Gayle Newman said that Connally was turned to his side and he grabbed his stomach.

How the bullet passed through his body requires an anatomical understanding of the human torso when it is turned like that.  The shoulders can turn without changing the position of the shoulder blade.  JBC was hit in the armpit which fits with having the armpit turned to face the rifle.

So the evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the second shot occurred close to the third shot which necessarily means JBC was turned sideways right as that is his position at z250-270 … just as Gayle Newman reported seeing less than an hour after seeing Connally hit by second shot.

If you know how long a rifle shot in Dealey Plaza would have persisted, then you should provide it along with the source.

If you are going to postulate that the sound of a single shot could reverberate for 2 seconds or more, the burden is on you to prove that.

There was a large post office building a bit more than 600 feet (188 m measured on Google maps, which is 616 feet) directly south of the TSBD. There were also buildings on the east side over that distance, pavement and concrete structures in Dealey Plaza. There was also the triple underpass about 500-550 feet south west of the SN as well as a railway embankment all along the west side. There were also reflective surfaces in between the TSBD and the underpass. So it was a real reverberation chamber:
. 

Sound from the 6th floor TSBD would have reflected off all those surfaces and then back to the people standing on the north side of Elm St. where Mary Woodward was.  The sound wave front would have taken a tad more than half a second: .55 seconds (speed of sound at 68F is 1127 fps) to directly reach the Post Office building and a bit more for sound waves reflected from the street, buildings along Houston and other concrete structures.  The sound then would have bounced back off the Post Office building as well as back off the triple underpass and arrived at the ears of Mary Woodward.  So she would definitely have heard the first round of continuous echos (reverberation) for at least 1.2 seconds after the blast.

But the reverberation doesn't just end on that first reflection.  It would have gone back and forth a bit. The reverberations from the first reflection back off the TSBD would have traveled south toward the Post Office building and bounced again of that large surface, arriving at Mary Woodward over the next 1.2 seconds. Same with the sound reflecting from the triple underpass back off the building along Houston and structures in between, although with a bit less travel time.

So unless the sound reflected only one time before ending completely, the reverberations could easily have continued for about 2.4 seconds.

Mary Woodward said that there was a third shot within the period of reverberation of the second shot.  She recalled three distinct shots.  She said she would go to her grave swearing that there were three shots. See this Youtube clip. Her statement begins about 2:50.

Wouldn't it be easier just to scrap your silly theory and start over than to keep coming up with ever more ridiculous explanations. I'm still waiting for you to explain how Oswald shot JBC in the back at a time JBC had spun around and was facing him.

That video is unavailable.

ME: Are these videos on YouTube?

Herb Huskr:

Hi Tom, those videos are not on Youtube, they are stored on my Google drive (so I hope they're accessible with the rifle gunshot sounds). They have not been broadly published on YouTube, but I don't care if others access them. I think there was some good latent information available in Dorman's filming after all.


My reply:

I've been referring members of Duncan MacRae's "JFK Assassination Forum" to your Elise Dorman / Secret Service Reenactment / Zapruder montages with gunshots dubbed in at certain points, but someone who lives in Thailand said they aren't viewable by him.

Question: Does a person have to be a FB "friend" of yours or a member of the FB forum "JFK Truth Be Told" to view them?


Herb Huskr's reply:

That's interesting....

If you were able to pull the pages up, I don't know why anyone else would have a problem. I set the pages for public access so it shouldn't be related to Facebook.

I'm wondering if it is some kind of country restriction or maybe just an Internet glitch for that individual, or since they were saved as avi files, maybe that causes problems on some computers? I'm not sure what the issue is.


My reply to Herb Huskr:

Maybe it's a Thailand thing.

Thanks for the feedback.

No I don't.  And you would know that if you had read those 9 pages I posted.  Not only do I not ignore them, I quote what they said and provide cites.  The fact is there are only three general possibilities of the spacing of three shots and not everyone will recall it correctly. 

There were six people who seemed to recall the reverse pattern: Nellie Connally, William Newman, Gayle Newman, Ken O'Donnell, Cecil Ault and Steven Wilson.  Only the Newmans gave their statements within a short time after the event.  The others were months after. William Newman initially (22Nov63) described only two shots 19 H 490:

• "We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time ha was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head."

Then in his next statement on November 24 (22 H 842), he said he recalled two shots close together for a total of three. He thought the first two were closer together though.

So one is left with having to assess the evidence.  I not only found the witnesses as to the 1.....2..3  pattern to be clearer and more descriptive and sure, but I also understood that the probability that the distribution of witnesses  was such that it was highly improbable that almost 80% would hear the shots and recall the same distinctive pattern and all agree on the same wrong pattern. If witnesses were generally able to recall the pattern there would be a clear preference for one possibility and the errors would be distributed randomly over the other two possibilities.  If everyone were really confused, one would expect a random distribution over all three possibilities.  This distribution is what one would expect only if the witnesses correctly recalled that the last two were closer:

They would have heard reverberations, not distinct echos.  Mary Woodward also said that the shots were on top of each other and explained that the sound of the second had not completely died out before the third shot sounded.  That may be why so many recalled those two distinct shots being close together. 

At 200 feet, the crack would be heard 77 ms before the muzzle blast and would not be confused with separate shots.

If the "second had not completely died out before the third shot sounded" that could not possibly be two shots from Oswald's rifle. You keep arguing for things that are impossible.

Interesting that McIntyre left the backup car temporarily as it was proceeding under the overpass.

https://jfk-online.com/mcintyre.html

Statement: William T. Mcintyre

 As the motorcade departed Love Field, the President's car was closely followed by the Secret Service follow-up car, which maintained its position throughout the events of the day. Agent Roberts was seated in the front seat of the follow-up car, next to the driver. Kenneth O'Donnell was seated to the left of David Powers, in the jump seats of the car. Agents George Hickey, a driver, and Glen Bennett, were in the rear seat, with Bennett on Hickey's right. Agents Ready and Landis rode the right running board, with Landis behind Ready, and agent Clint Hill and I rode the left running board, Hill being in front of me.

The motorcade was scheduled to last approximately 45 minutes. As we passed through downtown Dallas, crowds were quite heavy, and two motorcycles, on either flank of the Presidential vehicle, were of considerable assistance in keeping the motorcade clear.

As the motorcade cleared the main downtown area, it made a right turn, went approximately one block, and then executed a left turn. After this turn, there was essentially no crowd, and green expanses of lawn stretched to the right and left of the motorcade.

Directly in front of us was an underpass with a green sign with white lettering, stating "Entering Thornton Freeway."

The Presidential vehicle was approximately 200 feet from the underpass when the first shot was fired, followed in quick succession by two more. I would estimate that all three shots were fired within 5 seconds. After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot. By that time, Mr. Roberts had used the radio in our car to direct the vehicles to a hospital. Most, if not all the agents in the follow-up car had drawn their weapons and agent Hickey was handling the AR-15. None of us could determine the origin of the shots, and no shots were fired by any agent.

Upon arrival at the hospital, agent Bennett and I escorted then Vice-President Johnson into a vacant treatment room. Agents Youngblood and Kivett stayed with him while agent Taylor and I stood nearby. Agent Bennett established security outside the door to the room.

The shooting occurred at approximately 12:25 pm, and we had reached the hospital at approximately 12:30 pm.

Shortly after 1:30 pm, the Vice-President and Mrs. Johnson were taken to Love Field and placed aboard AF 1. Agents Lawton, Ready, and I established security around the aircraft. Within a short time, Mrs. Kennedy, accompanying the body of President Kennedy, arrived at Love Field, and boarded AF 1. AF I then departed Dallas, Texas, at what I think was about 2:15 pm. At 3:15 pm, agents Roberts, Lawton, Ready, and I departed Dallas, Texas via AF 6970, the back-up plane, and arrived at Andrews Air Force Base at 6:30 pm. We all then returned to the White House, and submitted summarized reports of the day's events to Mr. Roberts.