JFK Assassination Forum

It's too bad you don't care about the evidence.
Don't you have any idea how you come across?
You've carved a very special niche for yourself. You're like a Tinfoil Lone Nutter.
A troll.
Impervious to Reason, Logic or Common Sense.
Do you have any idea how bizarre what you're saying is?
None of the witnesses should be listened to because you say so?
Why do you even bother posting?
Are you lonesome?

[...]

“The "two lunches" theory is a non-starter for a number of reasons.
It's based on Shelley's supposed observation that he "thought" he saw either Givens or Williams (the only two black employees on the 6th floor) eating chicken on the 6th floor.”

Unfortunately, this statement is not correct. There were most definitely two different locations and Mr Shelley was correct in what he observed. The two detectives, Johnson and Montgomery charged with preserving the area, describe first the lunch left by BR Williams, followed by Det Montgomery explaining the second location of a piece of chicken left on top of the barricade boxes.
 

Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner.
Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle.
And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work.
Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle?
Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken.
Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window.
Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center?
Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of windows to my--I am pretty sure it was.

Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall?
Mr. JOHNSON. To the west.
Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner.

 
Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?
Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take pictures?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up had been moved there?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure

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Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken.
Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it looked like somebody had been eating chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes---right there on the floor.
Mr. BALL On the floor?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around right there.
Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there----one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.
Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.
Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.
Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.
Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window.
Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was sitting over there by itself.
Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the hulls there were.
Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle.
Mr. BALL. Correct.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that sack I'm thinking about---the one we found on the floor there that was used.
Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now?
Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't.
Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around where the hulls were found.
Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of----
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there.
Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. There's some boxes coming along in there.
Mr. BALL. Coming along in there you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here.
Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Partially eaten?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten---on that picture right there I was just looking at.
Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.

Clint Hill has already STARTED to react as he is seen doing in the Altgens photo 6 at approx Z 255.

From Z223 to Z255  it’s about 1.5 secs. Therefore. Clint Hill beginning to move one of his feet off the lower step rail of the car at Z225 coincides approx with how fast a trained SS agent would  react to recognizing a loud noise at Z223 approx , as coming from a rifle shot.

From Z255 to Z313 it is about 3 more secs , and it’s in this duration of time that Hill is leaping, and his feet hit the ground and he starts to run towards the JFK limo. This is all happening just BEFORE Z313.

And most notably it’s in this next 3 second duration of time as Clint Hill leaps from the foot rail of the car and begins to run , that he heard the 2nd shot BEFORE he heard and saw the effects of  the 3rd shot at Z313.

So this is an unresolved anomaly for the WC conventional 3 shots spread over 7-8 secs because if Hill reacted to a Z 233 shot as the 1st shot he heard thus causing him to react by Z 255, then the 2nd shot he heard just  before Z313, is highly improbable to have been fired from the MC bolt action rifle , since all 3 shots were fired in only 4.8 secs.

Thus is why the WC suggested an early (missed the whole limo ) 1st shot idea ( really absurd it would seem ) if not for a possibility of the TSBD shooter accidentally squeezing trigger AS he leaned over to rest the rifle on the boxes he had arranged to serve as a firing platform.

This unaimed accidental trigger squeeze by the TSBD shooter could be plausible EXCEPT that it would is inconsistent with  the 2/3rds  of witness hearing a rapid 3 shot sequence as 1….2.3 . Furthermore, Harold’s Norman’s recollection of 3 shots fired as quickly  as 4-5 secs is coincidentally matching with Clint Hills reaction beginning at Z255 and his recollection of the last 2 shots being very close together.

JFK started a quick look to his left in Z-144, one second after Oswald's first, missing-everything shot at "Z-124," by which time Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett in the passenger's side back seat of the follow-up car is already leaning over to his right to see if JFK is okay.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z144.jpg