JFK Assassination Forum

  I agree with you regarding Kamp probably enhancing the alleged Lovelady shirt.  Kamp fudged things to fit his Prayer Man scenario. I do not believe that: (1) Calvery could travel to Lovelady & Shelley, (2) tell them about JFK being shot, (3) Lovelady & Shelley then be filmed walking down the Elm St Ext, (4) ALL within 20 seconds following the kill shot.

Common Sense tells us it is impossible for Gloria to make it back to the front steps, tell everyone there about the assassination, after which Shelley and Lovelady are pictured walking down the Elm St Ext.
100% that did not happen.
Trolls like Tom are not interested in Common Sense or what's possible in reality.
As far as he is concerned, Kamp has magically produced an image of Lovelady and no amount of evidence can change what's left of his mind.

However, it is perfectly possible for Gloria to make it back to the front steps in the allotted time, where Darnell pictured her telling Lovelady and everyone on the steps about the assassination:

  I agree with you regarding Kamp probably enhancing the alleged Lovelady shirt.  Kamp fudged things to fit his Prayer Man scenario. I do not believe that: (1) Calvery could travel to Lovelady & Shelley, (2) tell them about JFK being shot, (3) Lovelady & Shelley then be filmed walking down the Elm Street Extension (4) ALL within 20 seconds following the kill shot.

Dear Sonderführer Storing,

How many feet from the "island" do you figure big, tall Calvery was standing during the motorcade?

Regardless, do you think she casually strolled there after she saw the President's head get blown off a few feet away?


-- Tom

  I agree with you regarding Kamp probably enhancing the alleged Lovelady shirt.  Kamp fudged things to fit his Prayer Man scenario. I do not believe that: (1) Calvery could travel to Lovelady & Shelley, (2) tell them about JFK being shot, (3) Lovelady & Shelley then be filmed walking down the Elm St Ext, (4) ALL within 20 seconds following the kill shot.   

Pat Speer identifies Burney as the woman stood next to Dishong.

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Speer's so unsure that Burney was standing next to Dishong that he posits that she may have been standing a little to the east (i.e., towards the TSBD) of hard-hat A. J. Millican and even posted a cropped photographic image showing her leaning out towards the limo and waving at JFK and Jackie as it passed by.

Perhaps you missed that.

Regardless, how many of your precious witnesses said they heard two more shots after your beloved Z-222 "first shot"?

-- Tom

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

How do you know your "Peggy Burney" isn't Dishong's unnamed work colleague at Higgenbotham-Bailey, a few blocks away?

Burney worked for Zapruder in the DalTex Building.

Dishong mentioned going to watch the motorcade with an unnamed colleague:

Fri 11-22-63.

This morning started as usual with the alarm radio rousing us at 5:45 AM. As we go through the hectic hour of dressing, breakfast and readying(sp) our self for a days work my thoughts are on a trip to K.C. It is misting rain this morning and I had better wear a raincoat and take my umbrella as I have 6 blocks to walk from where I park to where I work at the corner of Elm + Houston. I had read an item or two of President Kennedy’s tour and this was the day he would drive though Dallas, but I was absorbed in the starting of my day and my work Better hurry its 10 to 7 and I must be at work by 7:45. The morning is long - its only 9 AM. I look out the front window of the building I work in and think - there’s not many people on the street but its early for them to start gathering - looks like it will clear off. hope the sun comes out for the motorcade. I wonder what time they will be by here. At 10 AM - coffee break. I learned that the Presidents party was due at this end of town around noon. Although I hadn’t considered going downstairs to watch for them I began to get excited about the thought of seeing the President and his wife and mulled over the thought of going downstairs. Another trip to the front window. The sun is out and it’s a beautiful day - how nice. 11:45 the excitement is building. Word came from the front office that the Kennedy plane has landed but he is delayed shaking hands with people. 12:00 He is late getting downtown. We have time to eat lunch and get out in front. 12:15 Better put on my jacket, it might be chilly although the sun is shining bright. We go down the elevator at the back of the building and across the corner down the sidewalk in front of the Texas book depository and about 30 feet beyond the corner. The sun is warm. I’ll take off my jacket we might have quite a wait for the president’s car. I look back up the mall. The grass is green and the shrubbery is orange and brown foliage and is beautiful in the bright sunshine. I hear the sounds up around the corner. The people are leaning out the windows and I can see a large group on the roof that hangs out from the Court house. Around the corner come 4 motorcycle policemen with their white helmets and gunning their motors as they move along slowly. A car full of men a short distance behind them. Still no car with Jack + Jackey. Suddenly the crowd begins to respond and we can see people in the windows at the courthouse waving and shouting. 4 more motorcycle policemen and here come the president and his wife - No hat on his head. His arm in the air waving and that great big smile of his. Jackie beside him her arm raised in greeting to all of us. A pink suit. Pill box hat to match. Black hair just as we had seen them so many times on T.V. - it was beautiful. He drops his arm as they go by - possibly 20 feet. Suddenly - a sound. Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The President bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car. Jackey circled him with her arm. Another shot. Panic among the people. Woman with children. Parents pushing them to the ground. No one knows where the shots are coming from. A cry. The President has been shot. A third shot. People scatter. I can’t believe what I have seen. The picture of the man falling forward. I cover my face to blot out the picture, but that I can’t do. I must get away from that horrible picture. I turn and run back to our building up 3 flights of stairs. Already the word has proceeded us. What has happened. Someone says someone has been shot. The President --no no. Dear God no. Where is he. How bad. Who did it. I think I’m going to be sick. All I can see is that form crumbling forward. I can’t shut out the picture. I can’t think. Only a cry inside myself. It can’t be so. Maybe he was just getting out of the way. We turned on radios. It was true. He had been shot once or twice. No one knows. We know we heard 3 shots. Police cars. FBI men. The street seething with them. Riot guns. The building across the street. They’ve found the gun. Shells. 6 floor front window If any one of us had looked up when we were looking out possibly we would have seen this man. No one even thinks of working. Just milling around. People crying. Praying. Hoping. At last, word he is dead. I must go home where I can shut my doors and draw the blinds. This horrible thing has happened to this man. The symbol of our country and all we believe in, in this city that I am a part of. Among people that are gentle and kind and deeply aware of God and the bible. I fight this feeling. I must get as far away as possible because miles won’t take away the tragedy of this day and no matter how bright the sun is it will be forever a dark day. At home. Trying to think. Turn on T.V. Everyone in a turmoil. Word from the hospital of his last moments and Jackie. People gathered around the building crying. Dazed. Unable to accept the fact.

. . . . . . .


-- Tom

PS Pat Speer thinks Burney may have been standing about twenty-five feet closer to the TSBD than Dishong.

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-7b-more-pieces-in-the-plaza

Speer identifies Burney as the woman stood next to Dishong.
Woodward can be added to the list of witnesses who recall a first shot after the limo has passed her location on Elm Street.
It's a final blow to your debunked nonsense about a first shot at "z124".

However, you will ignore this evidence, just as you've done with the mountain of evidence preceding it, demolishing your nonsensical notions about the first shot.
That's what a good troll does.



The statements of the witnesses pictured above show, unanimously, that JFK had passed their position at the time of the first shot [statements lifted from Pat Speer's website]:

JUNE DISHONG: [taken from a letter written on the day of the assassination]
                        "His arm in the air waving… He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound. Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car. Jackie circled him with her arm. Another shot. Panic among the people. Woman with children. Parents pushing them to the ground. No one knows where the shots are coming from. A cry. The President has been shot. A third shot, people scatter. I can't believe what I have seen.


PEGGY BURNEY: [A first person account  published in the Dallas Times-Herald the day after the assassination]
                         "When the President's car made the curve around the corner, he was smiling and waving...he was happy and Jackie was happy and smiling as they passed. The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot. I did not realize it was a shot; I thought it was a backfire. The President ducked; instinctively I told myself 'something is happening,' but nobody knew what."



JEAN NEWMAN: [ From a statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department on the day of the assassination]
                       "I was standing right on this side of the Stemmons Freeway sign, about halfway between the sign and the edge of the building on the corner… The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down, and I thought at the time that it probably scared him too."


ERNEST BRANDT: [Oral History interview performed for the Sixth Floor Museum, 5-12-94]
                          "He was kind of casually smiling…acknowledging the crowd and waving casually. Nothing had happened by the time the limo was exactly opposite us, from the curb straight out to the street. Nothing had happened. But I was still watching Kennedy from the back...And of course, all I could see above the back seat was his shoulders, his neck, and head…I think the limousine was probably about 60 or 70 feet past us, three or four seconds I guess from the time. It wasn't moving real slow but yet not real fast either, y'know. And--60 or 70 feet past us, then BAM! the first shot was fired and boy it just reverberated around Dealey Plaza something terrible."

[11-22-95 article in the Dallas Morning News]
"Ernest Brandt, a salesman, watched from the curb as President John F Kennedy's motorcade turned down the Elm Street slope toward Stemmons Freeway... "Kennedy's limo was about 15 to 20 feet past us when the first shot was fired. I was still looking at him and I saw his arms come up."

[July 2000 hand-written, 3-page letter from Brandt to researcher Don Roberdeau published in part on Roberdeau's Men of Courage website and posted in total on the alt.assassination.JFK newsgroup in 2009]
 "President Kennedy was about 15 feet from me when the FIRST SHOT WAS FIRED!!! He was SLIGHTLY PAST ME at a "ONE O'CLOCK POSITION" in relation to my location on the NORTH SIDE of the Elm street curb.



JOHN TEMPLIN: [7-28-95 Oral History interview for the Sixth Floor Museum]
"Well, as the limo drew even with us, well, the president was waving and, of course, grinning. He had just a great big smile on his face...And just about, I would say, thirty feet past us, we heard what I personally thought was a motorcycle backfire, and I... the president kind of threw his shoulders up a little bit and kind of laid his head back on the back of the seat, and I thought, well, he’s just playing and playing the crowd and acting silly, you know.



All five witnesses are unequivocal that JFK had passed their position at the time of the first shot. It is interesting to note that most of them note that JFK was waving and smiling just before the first shot, as we see him doing as he passes behind the Stemmons sign in the Z-film.
The best representation of where these witnesses were stood in relation to where the limo was at specific Z-frames is Don Roberdeau's map. When we map their positions in Dealey Plaza compared to the limo position at various Z-frames it becomes apparent that the first shot cannot have taken place any earlier than z222/z223.