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51
Ye gods, am I ever bored. The winds are 60 mph and I'm trapped inside. I did find this 2021 thread from the McAdams forum in which several of this forum's participants - including John C, Steve G, and Mark U weighed in (along with wacky Gil Jesus, who steered us to a YouTube video proving - PROVING, I tell you! - that JFK was attempting to cough up a recalcitrant meatball bullet): https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/mIy5MUtYgYg.

Mark made the same point I do here (yay, Mark!): what we see with JFK is indeed a neuromuscular reaction but NOT the Thorburn reaction. Indeed, one of the criticisms of Lattimer's claim in the article I linked was precisely that the reaction observed by Thorburn was nothing like instantaneous but was fully developed only days later. Mark quoted from John McAdams' Assassination Logic (yay, John!) as follows:

"Lattimer was responsible for another bit of pseudoscience related to the case. In the wake of the bullet strike to his torso, Kennedy’s arms move sharply upward, toward his throat. He doesn’t actually grasp at his throat, and his fists are balled up in what looks like an involuntary reaction. Lattimer found a 'golden oldie' (from 1889) of an article in a medical journal and decided that Kennedy had assumed 'Thorburn’s position' — something documented as happening in the wake of trauma to the spine. Kennedy’s arm movements were indeed a neuromuscular reaction, but not the one Thorburn described, since Torburn’s position develops over days or weeks or even months. (130)

(130) Lattimer, Kennedy and Lincoln, chapter 11; Bob Artwohl, post on Compuserve forum, April 6, 1994, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thorburn.txt."


The link to Dr. Artwohl's post no longer works, but Mark steered folks to this letter from Dr. Strully, a NH neurosurgeon, to Dr. Artwohl: https://www.jfk-assassination.net/strully.txt.

What should profoundly amaze you is that Dr. Payette, having no idea what he was even talking about, nonetheless correctly diagnosed what is going on here - i.e., the bizarre movement of JFK's arms is indeed a neuromuscular reaction, just not a Thorburn reaction. The Thorburn thing is a red herring clutching at its gills with its little flippers (or fins or whatever red herrings have).

I am not surprised that anyone might think JFK was clutching at his throat because (1) he did have a throat wound and (2) that's kind of what it looks like.
52
JFK was hit at Z223-224 approximate if we believe what our eyes are seeing when viewing the Z-film.

It’s obvious the 6th floor shooter was making stupid decisions, the primary one being to choose to shoot from high elevation at a moving target rather than a place where JFK was a statuary target standing giving a speech. Charlie Kirk was killed with just one shot from 200 YARDS away by an inexperienced leftwing woke  Kook using a .308 rifle with a scope.

So the 1st shot could be Z224 , the 2nd shot 4.8 secs later at Z313 and the 3rd shot 2-3 secs after that aiming at anything particular because either the shooter was the Marxist Kook Oswald or he was a conspirator who for some reason was compelled to choose to shoot from TSBD in order to set up Oswald.

53
I have no idea how people got the impression that JFK was clutching at his throat:



   The "clutching of the throat" originated way back. Back when versions of the Z Film in the public domain were very low definition. As time passes and the Image Evidence becomes clearer, issues such as Steve Barber is raising become relevant. That said, I do believe there have always been those with high definition images. They revel in seeing serious JFK Assassination Researchers chasing their tails. This includes the Fake Newser's that continue to sit on their original copies of the Assassination Films. Wiegman Film, Darnell Film, etc.
54
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 10:16:03 PM »
By no means did 75% of the ear witnesses who reported on the spacing of the shots say the last two shots were 1-2 seconds apart. Most did not put a time on the spacing of the last two shots. Many just described the last two as being noticeably closer together than the first two. Most described a pause after the first shot and then two rapid shots. Several said the last two were about two seconds apart (e.g. Robert Jackson: “I guess, two seconds” ; Roger Craig: “no more than two seconds”). Allan Sweatt thought there were 7 seconds between the first and second and 2-3 seconds after that was the third shot.

Okay, let’s say it could be 2-3 secs. If so then Dans 1st shot Z224, 2nd at Z313 and 3rd at 2-3 secs after that is not so implausible since it’s clear that the 6th floor TSBD shooter was either  stupid or was trying to set up Oswald.

1. He chose to shoot at a moving target from 6th floor TSBD. He could have chosen an easier place to shoot at a stationary JFK giving a speech from a much lower elevation thus eliminating changing angles and necessity to constantly be adjusting to track the target. It would have been a much easier one shot one kill.
2. He stuck his rifle out the window for several seconds after firing the 3rd shot. It was spotted by Malcom Couch and Robert  Jackson as much as 5 secs after they heard the last shot.
3. He left 3 shells at the window
4. He may have left a paper bag with Oswald’s palm print on it.
5. He moved several boxes up next to the window which had Oswald prints on them.
3. He left an MC rifle linked to Oswald’s P.O.Box on the 6th floor not really hidden so well.
4. He had to either run down 4 flights of stairs or had to use the west freight elevator to go down to the 2nd floor landing. He could not go all the way down to 1st floor because he would have been seen by Adams, Stiles, Lovelady and Shelley ( the 2 men Baker saw) as he exited the elevator

If he took the west elevator down to 2nd floor landing, thus bypassing Mrs Garner on 4th floor unseen, and he exited from the 2nd floor west window onto the garage rooftop to escape then he was a conspirator who had planned to set to Oswald. Thus all the stupid decisions were required to set up Oswald.

If he took the west elevator to the 2nd floor landing thus bypassing Mrs Garner unseen, and he exited and ran into the 2nd floor lunchroom then he was Oswald and the stupid decisions were because Oswald was a stupid Marxist Kook.

In Either scenario, a 3rd shot fired after Z313 is plausible.

55
The point being, she observed absolutely no expression, no blood, nothing indicative of gagging, attempting to wipe blood away, etc., etc., such as has been suggested here. "You would think" it would be a blur to her? Well, OK, but it clearly wasn't a blur to her.

Why is that clear. What is clear is she didn't remember things happened the way Zapruder's camera did.
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In your epistemology, eyewitnesses sitting feet or even inches away are inevitably hopelessly confused and completely unreliable.

You can be too close to an event to see it clearly. It narrows the focus.
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This was the very first thing she observed in the entire sequence - what reason is there to think she was bewildered?

Are you serious? She just saw her husband seriously wounded and the President murdered in a gruesome way and you think she would just calmly take it all in. Ridiculous
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  J

ackie likewise, to the best of my knowledge, never said anything about JFK gagging or wiping blood. There is every reason to think that JFK's bizarre movements, and Jackie's inability to "unlock" his arms, are consistent with an involuntary neurological reaction - as are Nellie's observations.

Neither's testimony spot on. JFK's arms did not remain locked in a raised postion. By Z312 his elbows were back down.
56
Who watches the evening news? To get viewers, they cover human interest stories.  You said they didn’t cover the Bolton story and, instead of admitting that you were wrong, you double down and change the narrative. Kind of like how you approach the SBT when confronted with the evidence.

Lots of people still get their news the old fashioned way. Because there is a limited window of time, the network news programs have to make editorial decisions about what they think is important. They made the decision that reporting on giraffes and grizzly bears was more important than reporting a negative story about a Trump hater. Gee, I wonder why.
57
At page 116 of this thread, Dan O'Meara has an extended discussion as to why JFK's rapid and bizarre arm movements must be attributed to a reflex action from a shot at Z223-224 (yay, Dan!). Andrew Mason points out that we cannot see JFK between Z207-224 and that there is evidence of a beginning of a reaction with hand movements before Z207 (yay, Andrew!). Assuming that what we see is indeed a neurological reflex reaction, it would be interesting to see a qualified medical discussion as to how such a reaction might evolve - i.e., must it be instantaneous (or virtually so) or might it progress from what we see before Z207 to what we see at Z225?

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2723.805.html
58
So a 2nd shooter on the garage roof over the gate and just behind this sign fired one additional shot that was not heard? He must have fired the Z313 shot because he had a better quality rifle with a correctly zeroed scope and his plan was one shot one kill.

But this cannot be right because 3/4ths witness heard 3 shots with the last 2 very close together. And Harold Norman heard 3 shots from above him.

So this 2nd shooter must have been almost as stupid as the 6th floor TSBD patsy shooter since he didn’t use a suppressor and fire a subsonic round. He just figured one shot from his typical loud sounding rifle would  be heard from slightly different direction and then he would quickly escape unseen from the garage roof by … ( this part must be completed by Royell Storing)    Thumb1:

59
Why is it necessary to think Nellie was hallucinating to determine that she didn't perceive the event accurately? The shooting caught everyone by surprised and three shots were fired in less than 9 seconds, her husband was seriously wounded and the President was murdered in that short span of time. It must have been a bewildering experience. Frankly, it would be amazing if she was able to coolly recall what happened and the order in which things occurred. I would think it would be a blur to her.

The point being, she observed absolutely no expression, no blood, nothing indicative of gagging, attempting to wipe blood away, etc., etc., such as has been suggested here. "You would think" it would be a blur to her? Well, OK, but it clearly wasn't a blur to her. In your epistemology, eyewitnesses sitting feet or even inches away are inevitably hopelessly confused and completely unreliable. This was the very first thing she observed in the entire sequence - what reason is there to think she was bewildered? Jackie likewise, to the best of my knowledge, never said anything about JFK gagging or wiping blood. There is every reason to think that JFK's bizarre movements, and Jackie's inability to "unlock" his arms, are consistent with an involuntary neurological reaction - as are Nellie's observations.
60
Did you happen to see the caption that said CBS News 24/7? That story is on their streaming service. It was not part of their evening newscast. But the giraffe and the grizzly bear were considered to be newsworthy stories.
Who watches the evening news? To get viewers, they cover human interest stories.  You said they didn’t cover the Bolton story and, instead of admitting that you were wrong, you double down and change the narrative. Kind of like how you approach the SBT when confronted with the evidence.
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