JFK Assassination Forum

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a lithe sort of light-gray-looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?
Mrs.V DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mrs. MARY BROCK, 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, she was at the Ballew Texaco Service Station located in the 600 block of Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas. She advised that at approximately 1:30 PM a white male described as approximately 30 years of age; 5 feet, 10 inches; light—colored complexion, wearing light clothing, came past her walking at a fast pace, wearing a light—colored jacket and with his hands in his pockets.

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.
Mr. BELIN - Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?
Mr. BENAVIDES - It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!



Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha!



BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

JohnM

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Really? So if somebody wearing a white jacket is standing in the shade, the jacket is still shown to be white. Is that what you are saying? HAHAHAHAHAHA

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!

So, you are just looking at a couple of photographs (you didn't actually examine both jackets!) and then simply conclude the jackets in the photos are identical, regardless of the fact of one jacket the back and very long sleeves is shown and the other shows the front with not so long sleeves.

You are so full of it!

Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha

You frequently say a great many crazy and stupid things, but this one goes into the top ten. You find 100 men's jackets and none comes close to Oswald's jacket (which by itself is a nutty observation to make) and then you rather idiotically claim that I ever said that Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket. I've never said anything of the kind. I have no way of knowing of both the jackets in the photos are similar or not. All I can say is that both jackets look to be of the Windbreaker type. But that's it. You really need to stop visiting cuckoo land. It's not good for you!

But here's a question for you; if the jackets were swapped and the white one disappeared, what makes you think that they needed to be similar in the first place. The only three people who we know actually saw the white jacket were Westbrook and two unnamed and unidentified patrol officers who likely never saw the jacket again. As for Westbrook, that guy was the personnel officer, but he was all over the Tippit scenes. What in the world was he doing there?

BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Hilariously stupid. Just how pathetic can you be? First of all, they found Oswald's dark grey jacket at the TSBD, so that's the one he must have been wearing on Friday morning.
Secondly, even if he had been wearing the light grey jacket that morning, then how in the world did that get to Oak Cliff for Oswald to pick it up and put on? Oswald left the TSBD wearing no jacket, right? Roberts said he entered the rooming house wearing no jacket, right? So, come on, genius, tell is how did the light grey jacket get to the rooming house if Oswald had worn it to the TSBD on Friday morning?

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

Domingo Benavides, passing by in his pickup truck, saw Tippit's patrol car stopped near the curb and stated that the officer (Tippit) was talking to a man on foot.  Benavides heard the shots and saw the killer run from the scene.  Benavides testified to the Warren Commission that the killer was wearing a light-beige jacket, and that the jacket was lightweight.

William Scoggins, sitting in his cab (facing north on Patton towards the intersection with Tenth Street), was eating lunch when he noticed Tippit's patrol car travel from west to east on Tenth Street, crossing through the intersection with Patton.  Scoggins saw the patrol car come to a stop and noticed the officer having a conversation with a man who was walking on the sidewalk.  Scoggins heard the shots, looked up and saw the man running towards his cab.  Scoggins got out of his cab and hid beside it as the cop-killer passed.  He (Scoggins) testified that the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) was wearing a light-colored jacket.

Virginia Davis was inside the same house on Tenth Street as was her sister-in-law, Barbara, when she heard the shots.  Virginia went to the door and saw a man cutting across the yard with a gun in his hands.  Virginia testified to the Warren Commission that the man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Ted Callaway was on the front porch of his office near the alley between Tenth and Jefferson when he heard the shots come from the vicinity of Tenth Street.  He saw a man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across the yard of the house on the corner (Barbara and Virginia Davis) and noticed William Scoggins ducking beside the cab as the man passed, running down Patton from Tenth, holding a gun in his hands.  Callaway stated that the man had on a light tannish-gray windbreaker jacket.  Callaway testified to the Warren Commission that CE-162 (the jacket found on the ground under a car at the Texaco lot) looked like the jacket that the man was wearing as he was running from the scene.

Sam Guinyard was on Patton Ave. when he heard the shots.  Like the others, Guinyard saw the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cut across the yard of the Davis house on the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Guinyard testified that the man was running down Patton with a gun in his hands.  Guinyard testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald was wearing sort of a light-gray-looking jacket as he ran from the scene.

Thanks for helping John Mytton out. He was struggling, so now he can relax a bit.

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

As you mention Markham, there's something I have wanted to ask you ever since you did that video interview. Let me establish the context first. Markham testified that she took her usual bus to work from Jefferson at 1.15. You made a big deal about the time table showing there was a bus at 1.12 an 1.22 and I agreed it could have been either bus; a delayed 1.12 or indeed 1.22. The point is that if you take the same bus to work, you normally would try to get to the bus stop a few minutes earlier than the scheduled departure time. I know I did in my late teens when I caught the bus to my first, very modest, job. So, let's say for argument's sake that Markham would have at least tried to have gotten to the bus stop some three minutes earlier, at around 1.12 perhaps 1.13. Would that be fair?

Now we know from the FBI that Markham had to walk two blocks, from 9th street to Jefferson and that walking each block would have taken her 2,5 to 3 minutes. So, in order to get to the bus stop at a fairly safe time she would have had to leave 9th street at around 1.06 or 1.07, right?

Here's the problem I can't solve, so perhaps you can help me. Dale Myers has Markham standing on the corner of 10th and Patton when Tippit drives by. There's anything unusual to see a police cruiser pass by, she you would expect that after the car had passed, she would just cross the street and carry on walking to get to the bus stop on time. Right? But according to Myers, Markham didn't do that and I have never been able to understand that. Perhaps it would have been more understandable if Markham had a bit more spare time before she had to be at the bus stop, but why in the world would she risk missing her bus to observe for two minutes or so a police car? Can you explain that to me?

Now, let's just get back to the FBI timing of the walking distance. If we assume that Markham would have tried to be at least two minutes earlier at the bus stop to catch her bus at 1.15, and she did leave 9th street at 1.06 or 1.07, that would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1.10, perhaps 1.11. But according to Myers, and you argree with him, Tippit was shot at around 1.14.30. So what am I missing here? Did Markham get to 10th and Patton at 1.11 and stayed there for several minutes, or did she leave 9th street several minutes later at the risk of not getting to the bus stop on time. Can you make sense of this?

It means we shouldn't assume what they have told us is factual if it cannot be corroborated.

Exactly right...

Earlene Roberts' story hasn't got any corroboration.
Wesley Buell Frazier's story is corroborated by his sister

So why do LN blindly accept Roberts' story and reject what Frazier said?

RS: So you are claiming the Darnell film snippet showing Haygood, Harkness, and Walthers together is happening BEFORE Euins was loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car

Exactly


What are you claiming Harkness did with Euins, if you are claiming Euins was NOT Loaded into Sawyer's car until, "12:45, more like 1:00"?

I'm not claiming that. That is simply your projection. I'm saying that the Nat Geo footage you like to point to is so much later than Harkness showing up with Euins that no proper conclusion can be drawn from the Nat Geo footage.

 
RS: You can Not get around the documented radio transmissions.  Haygood - 12:35 from the Elm St curb. Harkness - 12:36.  That alleged motorcycle cop in the Darnell Film is NOT HAYGOOD. It is physically impossible for Haygood to be in 2 places at once.

Your conclusion does not follow the evidence. Nor does anything I said require Haygood be "two places at once." That's just an assumption you've made to support an unevidenced position.

   Your made up story is full of holes. Big Holes! Under your Made Up timelines, you are unable to explain what Harkness did with Euins between his 12:36 radio transmission and 12:45-1:00. You also can NOT get around Haygood making a 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle at the Elm St Curb near the Triple Underpass. This 12:35 Haygood radio transmission, means the Darnell Troika footage of Haygood, Harkness, and Walthers would have to be at 12:34. Except the Harkness 12:36 radio transmission makes that IMPOSSIBLE.  Harkness testified that he loaded Euins into Sawyer's car BEFORE securing the rear of the TSBD.  These are HARD FACTS. That motorcycle cop ain't Haygood. The timelines and testimonies make your fabricated story Impossible.
     If you actually read the Euins WC Testimony, he pinpoints EXACTLY where he met Harkness. Like your full of holes fictional story, your location for the Harkness/Euins 1st meeting is ENTIRELY WRONG. This is what happens when you make things up. It snowballs and then quickly unravels when confronted with Hard Facts. 

Part of the Texas Lore of the JFKA is that Gov. John Connally kept his grip on his white Stetson cowboy hat, even after being shot through the wrist, by the same bullet that first passed through President JFK's neck, then through JBC's chest, and only then through JBC's wrist. The same whole slug burrowed into JBC's thigh (and somehow mysteriously ended up on a hospital gurney, or below the gurney, several floors below JBC's operating room, by the WC version). That is C-399. Quite the adventurous bullet!

Nellie Connally said her husband held on onto his Stetson cowboy hat all the way to the Parkland hospital, although Nellie Connally also said the assassin's first shot struck JFK, the second hit JBC, and the third hit JFK. Such are the perils of citing JFKA witnesses, for SBT'ers and LN'ers alike. 

On a more authoritative note, Cyril Wecht, (now deceased) a renowned forensic pathologist and longtime critic of the Warren Commission (WC), maintained that it was physically and neurologically impossible for Connally to have maintained a grip on his hat if the "Magic Bullet" (Commission Exhibit 399) had actually shattered his radius bone, as the WC claimed.

The WC was, or course, was required to accept the Texas Lore, given that it had committed to the SBT, which meant that JBC was shot ~Z-223.

The WC version is, well, dubious:

"The SBT bullet entered the dorsal (back) side of his right wrist (thumb side), shattered the distal radius bone, and exited on the palm side. This path damaged nearby structures, including a partial transection of a dorsal branch of the radial nerve and a tendon leading to the thumb.

Dr. Charles F. Gregory (the orthopedic surgeon who operated on the wrist) noted this during the procedure. The Warren Commission Report explicitly references the "partial cutting of a radial nerve and tendon" as evidence that the bullet was already tumbling/yawed (not pristine), as it caught and tore these structures rather than pushing them aside."

OK, to reprise, the WC maintains JBC was shot through the right wrist ~Z-223, but was still holding onto his Stetson hat at Z-272.

Layman's view: I have never had a wrist shattered by a bullet. I was struck on the wrist hard enough (in an industrial mishap) once to leave bone bruises, or contusions, on my wrist. Yes bones can bruise and swell. The blow struck the dorsal side on the wrist. I could not have held onto my baseball cap through that experience, had I been holding one. I never had a Stetson.

Yet here is Gov. JBC at Z-272 still holding onto the Stetson, after having been shot through the wrst (and the chest).:



Note that JBC has made a near 180-degree in his seat, despite having been shot through the chest (by the SBT version). JBC is checking up on JFK, after hearing the first shot, JBC said. Those darn witnesses!

Side note: The telltale smell of gunsmoke hung in the air in the GK area in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA.

This gunsmoke could not have been from LHO's M-C, as the breeze was blowing from the GK towards to the TSBD---that is proven beyond dispute by women's skirts and coats fluttering in the wind.

Conclusion: The SBT strikes me as dubious.

The WC was driven towards the LN explanation by LBJ's fear that LHO-KGB-G2 connections could trigger a nuclear war. LBJ said so himself. For you younger folks, in the 1960s talk of nuclear war was nearly a daily event, especially during the CMC-1962. The possibility of a nuclear war seemed real, nearly tangible. Students practiced nuclear war drills once a week (that includes me!). Sears Roebuck started building bomb shelters under new stores in the early 1960s. Nelson Rockefeller floated a plan to finance every homeowner in America building bomb shelters under their houses.

WC members Russell, Boggs, Cooper all later said they disagreed with the WC conclusions.

The Texas Lore that JBC held onto his Texas Stetson Hat ...well, not sure about that. I lived in Texas in the late 1970s. Texas Lore and state pride are big things, and so are Stetson cowboy hats.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

The radial nerve covers the extensor muscles of the hand. Holding the hat requires the flexors, not the extensors. The radial nerve transection, then, wouldn't be expected to prevent Connally from continuing to hold the hat.


BC: Note that JBC has made a near 180-degree in his seat, despite having been shot through the chest

His upper body moves about 90 degrees after being shot. I don't see how being shot would have prevented that: I don't see who the bullet path would have prevented the muscles of the hips, abdomen, and lower back from accomplishing this.