JFK Assassination Forum

The bullet and shells don't tell us who fired the rifle butt the fibers on the bullet plate of the rifle that matched Oswald's shirt and Oswald's prints on the boxes in the sniper's nest do.

Only in your feeble mind. You have been schooled on the fact that there is no such thing as fibers matching with a particular object, but you won't learn, will you?

I don't need schooling from some one who doesn't know what he is talking about. If fibers can't be matched to an object, why would the FBI have a division that matches fibers to objects. Furthermore, suspected serial child killer Wayne Williams was convicted primarily on fiber matching and has already served 45 years in prison for that conviction. Without the fiber matching, the prosecutors wouldn't have had a case to take to trial. The reason fiber matching isn't 100% conclusive is that unlike fingerprint and ballistic matching, it is theoretically possible a matching fiber could have come from an identical object, even though that is a remote possibility.

Wayne Williams lawyers filed an appeal making the same claims you are about fiber evidence. The appeals court rejected the claim. Even though fiber evidence is not 100% conclusive, it is still highly probative when one considers the unlikelihood it came from an identical object to the one in question. You would have us believe it's just a coincidence that the fibers found on Oswald's rifle and in the rifle bag matched Oswald's shirt and blanket. If that is the case, Oswald had to be the unluckiest SOB that ever lived.

Secondly, you don't know which shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, so even if the fibers on the rifle butt matched that shirt, you still are nowhere near proving who fired the rifle. And as far as Oswald's prints on boxes go, the guy worked on the 6th floor and part of his job was to handle boxes and move them around. It would be a surprise if no prints were found.

I can't believe Oswald's shitass luck. Not only did the fibers on the rifle and the bag match his shirt and his blanket, when he went back to his rooming house to change shirts, he just happened to pick the one that was identical to the one the real shooter was wearing.

If this is what you consider to be "evidence", you really need to consider getting another hobby!

It only seems like evidence to people with common sense.

We have a plethora of evidence

Now, there's a typical Mytton use of words. The resemblance is remarkable! Probably just a coincidence, though....

You do seem to believe in amazing coincidences.

No.

To get to her bus stop "some three minutes earlier" than the time the bus was due by would mean she would get to the bus stop at around 1:09 (for the 1:12 bus) or 1:19 (for the 1:22 bus).

The mistake you're making above is that you're assuming that she said the bus arrived at 1:15.  When she gave the time of 1:15 (which is the ONLY time she ever gave, re: her bus), we really can't know if she's saying she caught the bus at 1:15 (she'd be wrong if this is what she was saying) or that she usually got to the bus stop at 1:15.

The police radio report by Bowley at 1:17 (combined with what Bowley tells us he did upon arriving at the scene before taking the mic from Benavides) tells me that Markham was approaching the corner of Tenth & Patton around 1:15.


I guess it depends on what you mean by "a fairly safe time".  I mean, was she saying that she tries to get to the bus stop at 1:15?  If that's what she was saying and she was on what she'd consider her perfect schedule, then yes, she'd be at Tenth & Patton around 1:12 or a half minute after.

I don't rely on Markham's time estimate for one simple reason.  The police tapes, combined with the actions of T.F. Bowley (reporting the shooting on the squad car radio at 1:17), Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis (calling the police on the phone almost immediately after the shots rang out and the dispatcher Murray Jackson being unaware of any of their phone calls by the time he received the radio call from Bowley) tells me that Markham was at the corner at roughly 1:15/1:16.  In other words, the police tapes (combined with the self-described actions of the four I just mentioned) tell me that Markham's time estimate of when it was that she was at the corner was flat-out wrong.

It happens.


Here's how I've always seen it play out...

Markham is not actually at the corner when Tippit cruises slowly through the intersection.  I can imagine it like this... she's approaching the corner, perhaps forty or fifty feet still from the corner when she sees Tippit cruise along Tenth and crossing Patton.  By the time she actually gets to the corner, Tippit is pulling over or has just pulled over.  She sees the guy who was walking then walk over to the passenger side of the car and watched as the conversation between the two takes place.  Because of this, instead of continuing to walk on her merry way, she stands there at the corner wondering why a police officer in his squad car has pulled alongside a guy who was walking on the sidewalk.

In short, she has not arrived at the corner yet when Tippit drove through the intersection.


We can't assume that Markham was trying to catch a bus at 1:15.  There's no reason to assume that, especially since we know there was no 1:15 bus.

By the way, my opinion is that the shooting occurred around 1:15:30(ish).

Domingo Benavides told Eddie Barker (The Warren Report, part 3, CBS-TV, 1967) that he watched the killer go around the corner and then sat there in his truck "for a second or two" before getting out and going over to Tippit and, realizing there was nothing he could do for Tippit, grabs the police radio.  My opinion is that Benavides begins keying the mic shortly after 1:16 and was on the mic 30 to 45 seconds after the shots (based on getting out of his truck "a second or two" after the killer went around the corner).

No.

To get to her bus stop "some three minutes earlier" than the time the bus was due by would mean she would get to the bus stop at around 1:09 (for the 1:12 bus) or 1:19 (for the 1:22 bus).

That assumes that Markham knew the official timetable and that the busses would always run on time. The reality is that Markham, in her mind, needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15 to get her bus!

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Busses seldom run exactly on time, so trying to argue that they did in this instance is disingenuous. Markham, in her mind, clearly needed to be at the bus stop every day at 1:15 and she would get on the first bus on her route that came along. That's how it works in the real world.

Markham is not actually at the corner when Tippit cruises slowly through the intersection.  I can imagine it like this... she's approaching the corner, perhaps forty or fifty feet still from the corner when she sees Tippit cruise along Tenth and crossing Patton.  By the time she actually gets to the corner, Tippit is pulling over or has just pulled over.  She sees the guy who was walking then walk over to the passenger side of the car and watched as the conversation between the two takes place.  Because of this, instead of continuing to walk on her merry way, she stands there at the corner wondering why a police officer in his squad car has pulled alongside a guy who was walking on the sidewalk.[/b]

Markham is not actually at the corner when Tippit cruises slowly through the intersection.  I can imagine it like this... she's approaching the corner, perhaps forty or fifty feet still from the corner when she sees Tippit cruise along Tenth and crossing Patton. 

Nice try, but that's not what is shown in a video you recently took part in, which showed a map with Markham being stationary for some time at 10th and Patton.
I just can't remember which video that was, but perhaps you know. Beyond that, you can imagine it all you want, it's still self-serving speculation.

Markham tells a different story;

In her statement to FBI Agent Robert Barrett on 3/16/64 she said "she had hoped to catch a bus at about 1:15 PM" According to Barrett "She stopped at this intersection in order to allow a police squad car and some other cars pass by.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

If Markham wasn't stopped at the intersection by Tippit's cruiser passing by, she would have had no plausible reason for stopping. She was on her way to catch her usual bus and only had minutes to spare. That's not a moment for sightseeing!

By the time she actually gets to the corner, Tippit is pulling over or has just pulled over.  She sees the guy who was walking then walk over to the passenger side of the car and watched as the conversation between the two takes place.  Because of this, instead of continuing to walk on her merry way, she stands there at the corner wondering why a police officer in his squad car has pulled alongside a guy who was walking on the sidewalk.

And risk missing her usual bus? For a police officer calling a civilian and having a conversation with him? Really?

We can't assume that Markham was trying to catch a bus at 1:15.  There's no reason to assume that, especially since we know there was no 1:15 bus.

We don't have to assume it. Markham herself told us!

By the way, my opinion is that the shooting occurred around 1:15:30(ish).

So now you disagree with Dale Myers?

it would have been impossible to be carried they way Randle described and not hit the ground.

 



JohnM

Thanks for helping John Mytton out. He was struggling, so now he can relax a bit.

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

As you mention Markham, there's something I have wanted to ask you ever since you did that video interview. Let me establish the context first. Markham testified that she took her usual bus to work from Jefferson at 1.15. You made a big deal about the time table showing there was a bus at 1.12 an 1.22 and I agreed it could have been either bus; a delayed 1.12 or indeed 1.22. The point is that if you take the same bus to work, you normally would try to get to the bus stop a few minutes earlier than the scheduled departure time. I know I did in my late teens when I caught the bus to my first, very modest, job. So, let's say for argument's sake that Markham would have at least tried to have gotten to the bus stop some three minutes earlier, at around 1.12 perhaps 1.13. Would that be fair?

Now we know from the FBI that Markham had to walk two blocks, from 9th street to Jefferson and that walking each block would have taken her 2,5 to 3 minutes. So, in order to get to the bus stop at a fairly safe time she would have had to leave 9th street at around 1.06 or 1.07, right?

Here's the problem I can't solve, so perhaps you can help me. Dale Myers has Markham standing on the corner of 10th and Patton when Tippit drives by. There's anything unusual to see a police cruiser pass by, she you would expect that after the car had passed, she would just cross the street and carry on walking to get to the bus stop on time. Right? But according to Myers, Markham didn't do that and I have never been able to understand that. Perhaps it would have been more understandable if Markham had a bit more spare time before she had to be at the bus stop, but why in the world would she risk missing her bus to observe for two minutes or so a police car? Can you explain that to me?

Now, let's just get back to the FBI timing of the walking distance. If we assume that Markham would have tried to be at least two minutes earlier at the bus stop to catch her bus at 1.15, and she did leave 9th street at 1.06 or 1.07, that would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1.10, perhaps 1.11. But according to Myers, and you argree with him, Tippit was shot at around 1.14.30. So what am I missing here? Did Markham get to 10th and Patton at 1.11 and stayed there for several minutes, or did she leave 9th street several minutes later at the risk of not getting to the bus stop on time. Can you make sense of this?

As you mention Markham, there's something I have wanted to ask you ever since you did that video interview. Let me establish the context first. Markham testified that she took her usual bus to work from Jefferson at 1.15. You made a big deal about the time table showing there was a bus at 1.12 an 1.22 and I agreed it could have been either bus; a delayed 1.12 or indeed 1.22. The point is that if you take the same bus to work, you normally would try to get to the bus stop a few minutes earlier than the scheduled departure time. I know I did in my late teens when I caught the bus to my first, very modest, job. So, let's say for argument's sake that Markham would have at least tried to have gotten to the bus stop some three minutes earlier, at around 1.12 perhaps 1.13. Would that be fair?

No.

To get to her bus stop "some three minutes earlier" than the time the bus was due by would mean she would get to the bus stop at around 1:09 (for the 1:12 bus) or 1:19 (for the 1:22 bus).

The mistake you're making above is that you're assuming that she said the bus arrived at 1:15.  When she gave the time of 1:15 (which is the ONLY time she ever gave, re: her bus), we really can't know if she's saying she caught the bus at 1:15 (she'd be wrong if this is what she was saying) or that she usually got to the bus stop at 1:15.

The police radio report by Bowley at 1:17 (combined with what Bowley tells us he did upon arriving at the scene before taking the mic from Benavides) tells me that Markham was approaching the corner of Tenth & Patton around 1:15.

Now we know from the FBI that Markham had to walk two blocks, from 9th street to Jefferson and that walking each block would have taken her 2,5 to 3 minutes. So, in order to get to the bus stop at a fairly safe time she would have had to leave 9th street at around 1.06 or 1.07, right?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "a fairly safe time".  I mean, was she saying that she tries to get to the bus stop at 1:15?  If that's what she was saying and she was on what she'd consider her perfect schedule, then yes, she'd be at Tenth & Patton around 1:12 or a half minute after.

I don't rely on Markham's time estimate for one simple reason.  The police tapes, combined with the actions of T.F. Bowley (reporting the shooting on the squad car radio at 1:17), Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis (calling the police on the phone almost immediately after the shots rang out and the dispatcher Murray Jackson being unaware of any of their phone calls by the time he received the radio call from Bowley) tells me that Markham was at the corner at roughly 1:15/1:16.  In other words, the police tapes (combined with the self-described actions of the four I just mentioned) tell me that Markham's time estimate of when it was that she was at the corner was flat-out wrong.

It happens.

Here's the problem I can't solve, so perhaps you can help me. Dale Myers has Markham standing on the corner of 10th and Patton when Tippit drives by. There's anything unusual to see a police cruiser pass by, she you would expect that after the car had passed, she would just cross the street and carry on walking to get to the bus stop on time. Right? But according to Myers, Markham didn't do that and I have never been able to understand that. Perhaps it would have been more understandable if Markham had a bit more spare time before she had to be at the bus stop, but why in the world would she risk missing her bus to observe for two minutes or so a police car? Can you explain that to me?

Here's how I've always seen it play out...

Markham is not actually at the corner when Tippit cruises slowly through the intersection.  I can imagine it like this... she's approaching the corner, perhaps forty or fifty feet still from the corner when she sees Tippit cruise along Tenth and crossing Patton.  By the time she actually gets to the corner, Tippit is pulling over or has just pulled over.  She sees the guy who was walking then walk over to the passenger side of the car and watched as the conversation between the two takes place.  Because of this, instead of continuing to walk on her merry way, she stands there at the corner wondering why a police officer in his squad car has pulled alongside a guy who was walking on the sidewalk.

In short, she has not arrived at the corner yet when Tippit drove through the intersection.

Now, let's just get back to the FBI timing of the walking distance. If we assume that Markham would have tried to be at least two minutes earlier at the bus stop to catch her bus at 1.15, and she did leave 9th street at 1.06 or 1.07, that would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1.10, perhaps 1.11. But according to Myers, and you argree with him, Tippit was shot at around 1.14.30. So what am I missing here? Did Markham get to 10th and Patton at 1.11 and stayed there for several minutes, or did she leave 9th street several minutes later at the risk of not getting to the bus stop on time. Can you make sense of this?

We can't assume that Markham was trying to catch a bus at 1:15.  There's no reason to assume that, especially since we know there was no 1:15 bus.

By the way, my opinion is that the shooting occurred around 1:15:30(ish).

Domingo Benavides told Eddie Barker (The Warren Report, part 3, CBS-TV, 1967) that he watched the killer go around the corner and then sat there in his truck "for a second or two" before getting out and going over to Tippit and, realizing there was nothing he could do for Tippit, grabs the police radio.  My opinion is that Benavides begins keying the mic shortly after 1:16 and was on the mic 30 to 45 seconds after the shots (based on getting out of his truck "a second or two" after the killer went around the corner).

The fact that TSD sufferers want to compare Trump to a man who was responsible for 6 million Holocaust victims and 39 million other deaths in the European theater of WWII says a lot about their lack of perspective.

After fifty-plus years (it started in 1959) of KGB* disinformation, active measures (can you say Oliver Stone's "JFK"?), and mole-based strategic deception counterintelligence operations against us and our NATO allies had sufficiently dumbed-down, made paranoiac, and made apathetic a great deal of our body politic, "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin installed "useful idiot" (or worse) Donald Trump as our "president" at the end of the most successful KGB "active measures" operation ever conducted (i.e., during the 2016 campaign), with help, of course, from oodles and gobs of zombified "useful idiots," many of whom are now suffering from a serious case of buyer's remorse.

*Today's SVR and FSB