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51
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 10:52:51 PM »
Not all. I certainly agree there was no early missed shot.  So did the Connallys.  The problem with your scenario is that it conflicts with the Connally’s clear recollections that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot..

Ironically, this is the same single witness Corbett bases the entirety of his opinion on.
A man who went into shock after suffering a life-threatening, massively traumatic gunshot injury through the torso.
There is copious research highlighting the effects such a traumatic injury can have on the memory recall of the victims.
There is ample evidence that Connally is suffering from a number of these effects.
He is possibly the most unreliable witness to the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
Researchers like yourself and Corbett treat him as if he were a bystander recalling what he witnessed. At no point do either of you acknowledge how the trauma and shock of his life-threatening injury may have affected his recall of events.

52
    The Darnell/Couch film images that show Officer Baker running across the Island, have been given a time stamp of ":20 seconds after the kill shot". Do you agree with that :20 second time stamp?
    That :20 time stamp jams up Shelley and Lovelady being at the TSBD 1st floor freight elevator at Under 1:00 after the kill shot. This "under 1:00 minute" is when they allegedly were seen by Adams when she reached the TSBD 1st floor. The faster You have Adams reaching the TSBD 1st floor, you then are placing Shelley and Lovelady at that same 1st floor location even quicker. And Adams makes no mention of Shelley and Lovelady being in motion, as if Shelley and Lovelady were just arriving when she saw them. They were in position on the 1st floor when she saw them. The still frame you have posted shows Shelley being on the ground in front of the TSBD. This would be at :25 seconds after the kill shot, leaving LESS than :35 seconds for Shelley to go from the ground: (1) up through the very crowded TSBD front steps, (2) through the crowded TSBD Lobby, (3) unlocking the Closed Gate at the desk, (4) traveling across the TSBD 1st Floor, (5) arriving at the freight elevator. Again, ALL of this in Under :35 seconds. And, ALL of this is if Shelley IMMEDIATELY left his position on the still frame you posted. To me, this is far to fast for Shelley to do ALL of this largely due to his NOT being in motion on the still frame you have posted. The Shelley figure is at a Dead Stop and does Not look to be in any kind of a hurry. The same goes for Lovelady. The Tick/Tock here does does fit if you buy into the :20 seconds after the kill shot being tied to Officer Baker running across the Island. That :20 second timestamp is when the Shelley and Lovelady clock begins running. 
    This is why I continue to encourage you to do a thread on the subject of Shelley and Lovelady going through the TSBD front door. This is your very own unique idea, but it does have time stamping issues that You need to iron out.

Let's do something very few people ever think to actually do - let's take the WC testimony of Vicki Adams at face value.
She comes across as an intelligent and articulate woman in the transcript of her testimony, which is confirmed by the "lost Interview" she did with Mark Lane and someone else, where we hear Vicki in her own words (and she again confirms she did inded see Shelley and Lovelady as she raced out of the building).

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.


Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.


She is saying it took her no longer than 60 seconds to get to the first floor (this seems to be a maximum estimation) and when she got there she saw Shelley and Lovelady.
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time?
Remember, even if it's just as a thought experiment, that we are taking Adams' testimony at face value - how did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time?
53
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 10:16:38 PM »

Like all true Nutters, you labour under the delusion that what you think is a fact, just because you think it.
There was no early shot.
Both men were shot through at z222/z223.
This is based solely on the mountain of valid evidence pointing to this conclusion.
Your opinion is based on a single witness.
Not all. I certainly agree there was no early missed shot.  So did the Connallys.  The problem with your scenario is that it conflicts with the Connally’s clear recollections that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot..
54
Obviously, Adams & Styles squeaked out the rear exit just before Truly & Baker ran in...

This is really bizarre.
I completely agree that Adams and Styles "squeaked out the rear exit" just before Truly and Baker arrived at the area near the freight elevators on the first floor.
The Dillard picture proves Adams had left her position by the fourth floor window within 15 seconds of the final shot.
She stated that before the limo had even reached the underpass she had decided to get down there.
She consistently insisted that she ran all the way down, placing her on the first floor within 60 seconds of the shot, if not sooner.

The thing I don't understand is this, Brian, and maybe you can invent something else to account for this:
When Adams hit the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting she saw Shelley and Lovelady not far from the elevators as she raced by. She even tried to interact with them but they didn't respond.
Truly and Baker arrived at the same location seconds later where Baker reported two white men (who can only be Shelley and Lovelady) hanging around that area.
How is it possible for the two men you claim to be Shelley and Lovelady on the Elm Street extension, get to the area near the elevators on the first floor where they were observed by Adams and Baker, within 60 seconds of the shooting?
Do you even realise how you are contradicting yourself?

    The Darnell/Couch film images that show Officer Baker running across the Island, have been given a time stamp of ":20 seconds after the kill shot". Do you agree with that :20 second time stamp?
    That :20 time stamp jams up Shelley and Lovelady being at the TSBD 1st floor freight elevator at Under 1:00 after the kill shot. This "under 1:00 minute" is when they allegedly were seen by Adams when she reached the TSBD 1st floor. The faster You have Adams reaching the TSBD 1st floor, you then are placing Shelley and Lovelady at that same 1st floor location even quicker. And Adams makes no mention of Shelley and Lovelady being in motion, as if Shelley and Lovelady were just arriving when she saw them. They were in position on the 1st floor when she saw them. The still frame you have posted shows Shelley being on the ground in front of the TSBD. This would be at :25 seconds after the kill shot, leaving LESS than :35 seconds for Shelley to go from the ground: (1) up through the very crowded TSBD front steps, (2) through the crowded TSBD Lobby, (3) unlocking the Closed Gate at the desk, (4) traveling across the TSBD 1st Floor, (5) arriving at the freight elevator. Again, ALL of this in Under :35 seconds. And, ALL of this is if Shelley IMMEDIATELY left his position on the still frame you posted. To me, this is far to fast for Shelley to do ALL of this largely due to his NOT being in motion on the still frame you have posted. The Shelley figure is at a Dead Stop and does Not look to be in any kind of a hurry. The same goes for Lovelady. The Tick/Tock here does does fit if you buy into the :20 seconds after the kill shot being tied to Officer Baker running across the Island. That :20 second timestamp is when the Shelley and Lovelady clock begins running. 
    This is why I continue to encourage you to do a thread on the subject of Shelley and Lovelady going through the TSBD front door. This is your very own unique idea, but it does have time stamping issues that You need to iron out.   
55
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:12:43 PM »
Taking the earlier difficult shot gave Oswald an extra chance to hit JFK. He  could still be able to take the easier later shots if he missed which he did. It could be argued that by taking the early first shot, he could have cost himself a chance at the later shots, but that didn't happen. That was a decision Oswald had to make and the fact someone else might have made a different choice proves nothing. Given that Oswald eventually succeeded in what he was trying to do, I see no reason to second guess his choice.

This is all just made up nonsense based on nothing.

I am offering a witness report observing the shooter staring "transfixed" for 10 - 15 seconds in the direction of the underpass.
This was seconds before the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza.
I offer an image showing what the shooter was looking at, the area in which we see both men actually reacting to being shot in the Z-film.
It makes complete sense that the shooter is focussed on the 'kill zone'.
The arrangement of boxes, known as the Sniper's Perch, also demonstrates the direction in which the shooter intended to fire. He put these boxes in position with the shooting in mind.

Like all true Nutters, you labour under the delusion that what you think is a fact, just because you think it.
There was no early shot.
Both men were shot through at z222/z223.
This is based solely on the mountain of valid evidence pointing to this conclusion.
Your opinion is based on a single witness.

56
Huh? I was quoting a physicist who was discussing information he obtained directly from a renowned forensic pathologist when he interviewed him.

This is yet another lame dodge. Dr. Fillinger did not need to examine the medical evidence at the National Archives to comment on Humes's and Kellerman's WC testimony about the bullet fragmentation seen in the skull x-rays, and to comment on the fragmentation of the skull described by the autopsy doctors in their WC testimony and illustrated in the WC's two wound diagrams of the exit wound (CE 386 and CE 388). If he had examined the skull x-rays at the Archives, he would have seen the 30-40 tiny fragments that Humes and Kellerman described; and if he had examined the skull x-rays and autopsy photos at the Archives, he would have seen the skull damage that the autopsy doctors described and that the WC's wound diagrams illustrated.

Why of course. Who needs to see the stinking medical evidence when second hand accounts are available. The FPP did see all the medical evidence and they concurred with the autopsy conclusion that the bullet that entered JFK's back exited from his throat. That finding was unanimous. But we should disregard that because of a conclusion by Fillinger based on what he read from Humes's and Kellerman's WC testimony. Do you have any idea how laughable that is?
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So, now, what is your answer to Dr. Fillinger's point that FMJ ammo, especially FMJ ammo that was not traveling at a high velocity, would not have shattered into 30-40 tiny fragments and would not have caused the kind of extensive damage that was done to JFK's skull?

If he had never seen a case of what a 6.5mm FMJ Carcano bullet does when it strikes a skull, his observations are nothing more than educated guesses.
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Notice that Dr. Fillinger's observations fit perfectly with Dr. Vincent DiMaio's observations about the behavior of FMJ bullets. Just to refresh your memory, once again, here's what Dr. DiMaio said on the subject:

Again, I have to remind you that not all FMJ ammo is the same. They have different shapes, constructions, velocities, etc., all of which will impact what happens to the bullet when it strikes a hard surface like a human skull. FMJ bullets come in a wide variety of shapes, calibers, velocities, etc. It is ludicrous to assume they will all fragment in the same manner when striking a human skull.
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An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . . usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine.If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .(Gunshot Wounds, p. 166)

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a 'lead snowstorm'. . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, p. 318)

Again, did you catch that? Let's review: (1) In the "rare" cases when FMJ bullets do fragment when they penetrate bone, they will only leave a "few" fragments. And (2) if an x-ray shows a "lead snowstorm," this "rules out" FMJ ammo.

On a side note, I trust you're aware that experts from both sides have described the cluster of 30-40 tiny fragments seen on the JFK skull x-rays as a "lead snowstorm."

So? [quote[

The ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been FMJ ammo.
[/quote]

An idiotic, statement made by an .....well, I don't need to say it.
57

Front entry doesn't make sense because it doesn't line up with Adams & Styles' descent of the steps or Truly & Bakers' entry in to the First Floor...

As can be seen in Couch/Darnell, Lovelady & Shelley are headed up to the Train Yard where they went back in to the Depository through the west entry doors...

Obviously, Adams & Styles squeaked out the rear exit just before Truly & Baker ran in and were on the stairs just ahead of where Oswald needed to be in his alleged run down from the 6th Floor...It was actually Mrs Garner who was the one who should have seen and heard Oswald but didn't from her spot on the 4th Floor landing...

Obviously, Adams & Styles squeaked out the rear exit just before Truly & Baker ran in...

This is really bizarre.
I completely agree that Adams and Styles "squeaked out the rear exit" just before Truly and Baker arrived at the area near the freight elevators on the first floor.
The Dillard picture proves Adams had left her position by the fourth floor window within 15 seconds of the final shot.
She stated that before the limo had even reached the underpass she had decided to get down there.
She consistently insisted that she ran all the way down, placing her on the first floor within 60 seconds of the shot, if not sooner.

The thing I don't understand is this, Brian, and maybe you can invent something else to account for this:
When Adams hit the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting she saw Shelley and Lovelady not far from the elevators as she raced by. She even tried to interact with them but they didn't respond.
Truly and Baker arrived at the same location seconds later where Baker reported two white men (who can only be Shelley and Lovelady) hanging around that area.
How is it possible for the two men you claim to be Shelley and Lovelady on the Elm Street extension, get to the area near the elevators on the first floor where they were observed by Adams and Baker, within 60 seconds of the shooting?
Do you even realise how you are contradicting yourself?





58
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 07:58:25 PM »
Thank God that Mary Woodward noticed and wrote down JFK's quickly turning and Jackie's accelerated turning of their heads, consciously and in a quizzical manner, about a second after said "backfire-like" first shot.
She said "The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed.  .... After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise....".   She was describing the initial positions of JFK prior to the last turn and wave.  JFK's right turn begins around z165 and his wave at z172. Jackie's right turn begins a bit later around z174.  She was describing turns and waves that occurred BEFORE the first "horrible ear-shattering noise" not after.  Kennedy turned forward after looking right and waving and that is when Woodward said the first noise occurred. That is after z193 for sure.

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It's a pity, though, that she conflated other things that happened before and after said shot with what happened before and after the second shot, as indicated by her reporting that the limo "nearly came to a halt" after the first shot.
The limo may have slowed down after the first shot and before the second if the second shot was shortly before the third and last shot, which is what she described.
59
"Random"? "Loose with the facts"? I quoted sourced statements from autopsy witnesses, including Dr. Robert Karnei and Dr. John Ebersole, proving that the autopsy doctors established beyond any doubt that the back wound had no exit point. I pointed out that the transcript of the 1/27/64 WC executive session proves that the first two drafts of the autopsy report said nothing about the throat wound as an exit point for the back wound. And, I quoted sourced statements that prove the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound before the autopsy and that Humes talked to Perry well before the autopsy ended, contrary to Humes's lie that he didn't talk to Perry until the following morning.

The only thing you have proven is that you are really, really bad at figuring things out. You want to give more weight to a preliminary hypothesis that to a final conclusion that was based upon all information gathered.
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LOL! Are you caught in a time warp where it's still 1964? I mean, is this a serious question? Are you aware that the FBI and Secret Service analyses of the shooting concluded that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets? Are you aware that Connally himself insisted he was hit by a different bullet than the one that hit JFK in the back? Are you aware that the most sophisticated, advanced SBT trajectory study ever conducted, done by Knott Lab in 2023, determined that JFK and Connally were never in position for the SBT to be possible, proving that they could not have been hit by the same bullet?

Yes, those were the preliminary conclusions. The staff lawyers investigating the shooting later determined that was not what happened and developed the SBT based on solid evidence and logical thinking. Their finding has stood the test of time. Not everyone agrees just as not everyone agrees the earth is round or that American astronauts landed on the moon.
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The question you should be asking yourself is, "How can I still believe in the SBT when there is so much compelling evidence that the back wound had no exit point, that no bullet exited the throat, and that the throat wound was an entry wound?" 

The question you should be asking is "Why do I continue to dispute the fact that Oswald assassinated JFK given so much compelling evidence that is what happened."
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Can you read? You have totally misread what Boswell said. He said nothing about his "initial impression" or "first impression." He said that initially they were unable to probe the back wound because the muscles blocked the wound path, but that after they opened the chest, they were able to probe the wound and determine that the bullet did not enter the lung cavity but merely caused bruising outside the pleura.

It always get's confusing when MTG chooses to reply to multiple people in the same post but I believe this is where he has switched over to me.

Do you really need to be told that was Boswell's initial impression. That impression was made early in the process and is at odds with the final conclusion which all three members of the autopsy team signed. Unlike you, Boswell understood the earlier impression that the bullet had no exit was an erroneous one as they discovered there was a clear bullet path leading from the back entrance to the throat exit. The discovered the bruised pleura, the perforation of the strap muscles, the grazing of the rings of the trachea, which led them to the tracheostomy. We don't know at one point in the process they began to suspect the tracheostomy had been performed over the exit wound but they were able to confirm that suspicion when Humes talked to Perry. You, being a silly CT, think the autopsy team should have stuck with that first erroneous impression that there was no exit for the back wound no matter what they learned later in the fact finding process. Somebody on the autopsy teams said early on there was "no exit" and by God, they were stuck with that no matter what they learned afterwards.
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As I documented, Dr. Karnei explained that after they removed the chest organs and resumed the probing, the men around the autopsy table could see the end of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity. Dr. Ebersole said that "further probing" and "inspection" revealed "there was no point of exit." It was this point, explained Sibert and O'Neill, that the autopsy doctors, particularly Finck, announced that the back wound had no exit point.

They thought there was no exit until they discovered the trail of tissue damage leading to the tracheostomy in the throat. Then they understood why there was no bullet in the body. It had exited from JFK's throat.
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People are going to easily see through your dishonest, phony argument that this was just a "first impression." No, this was the final, definitive, visually confirmed finding by the end of the autopsy.

You are a damn liar. You get no respect because you deserve no respect.
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That's why Sibert and O'Neill, the two FBI agents at the autopsy, included the "no exit" finding in their report on the autopsy. That's why they told the ARRB that at the end of the autopsy, there was no doubt whatsoever that the back wound had no exit point. 

Moronic. Cite the bystanders instead of the people actually conducting the autopsy.
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LOL! I again ask, can you read? Do you understand English beyond a grade-school level? How can you make this argument with a straight face?

In a previous reply, you repeated the long-debunked lone-gunman lie that Humes did not know about the throat wound until the morning after the autopsy. I just proved to you that this is false, that Humes talked to Perry at least 90 minutes before the autopsy ended. So there was no "more and better information" to be gathered.

You have never shown any evidence anyone on the autopsy team knew that. You have shown that Perry said it. There is no evidence any of them saw Perry's presser.
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At the end of the autopsy, at least 90 minutes after Humes had talked to Perry about the throat wound, the autopsy doctors were absolutely certain that the back wound had no exit point

More lies. Have you no shame?
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-- they knew this because they had been able to probe the wound to its end after they removed the chest organs and had seen with their own eyes that the wound path did not enter the lining of the chest cavity.

How do you suppose they were able to document the bruised pleura, the perforated strap muscles, the damaged trachea rings? Do you think they just made that up after the autopsy was over? Why do you suppose every member of the FPP concurred with the finding that the bullet exited from JFK's throat?
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That's why Dr. Karnei explained that after the doctors opened the chest, removed the chest organs, and resumed the probing, the men around the autopsy table could see the end of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity. That's why Dr. Ebersole said that "further probing" and "inspection" revealed "there was no point of exit." That's why Navy medical technician James Jenkins, serving as Dr. Boswell's assistant during the autopsy, observed that he and others around the autopsy table could see the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity and that "there was no entry into the chest cavity." That's why Dr. Boswell himself told the ARRB that the bullet "had not pierced through into the lung cavity." That's why Sibert and O'Neill observed in their 11/26/63 report on the autopsy that "further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance." That's why Sibert and O'Neill confirmed this fact in the plainest possible English to the ARRB, stressing that the autopsy doctors had no doubt whatsoever about this.

It was only after Oswald was murdered that the no-exit finding was suppressed and replaced by the fiction that the back-wound bullet exited the throat. In order to make that tale even theoretically possible, Humes had to relocate the back wound some 2 inches upward so as to put it above the throat wound and to enable a downward trajectory through the neck, a falsehood that the HSCA FPP corrected, to their credit.

You continue to try to make your case with lies. That says all that needs to be said about your case.
60
The JFK brain matter that contained this trail of fine small particles was not preserved nor were those tiny particles ever removed and examined to see if they could be matched to 6.5 mm MC ammo. Just coincidence?

Ditto for the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment in the rear outer table of the skull visible on the lateral x-rays. The autopsy doctors could not have missed this fragment, but they ignored it because they knew they couldn't associate it with the rear head entry wound. Sibert and O'Neill noted the fragment in their report on the autopsy, but Humes said nothing about it in the autopsy report.

The fragment is 9 cm above the rear head entry wound in the occiput and 1 cm below the phantom cowlick entry wound above the lambda in the parietal bone. The fragment doesn't fit with either entry site. Dr. Russell Fisher told Howard Donahue that he and the other Clark Panel members believed the fragment was a ricochet fragment. That is the only rational, scientifically plausible explanation.

For many years, WC defenders gleefully cited Dr. Vincent Guinn's 1977 NAA test. Guinn claimed that the test results showed that five JFKA bullet fragments came from just two bullets and that those two bullets came from the same batch of bullets that Oswald allegedly used, which in turn seemed to constitute conclusive scientific evidence for the single-bullet theory. However, Guinn's NAA claims were destroyed 20 years ago, first in 2006 by scientists Erik Randich and Patrick Grant, and again in 2007 by scientists Cliff Spiegelman, William Tobin, William James, Simon Sheather, and D. Max Roundhill.

This was, and remains, historic because if the five fragments came from three or more bullets, instead of just two, that would mean a second gunman's bullet must have hit JFK, as the scientists themselves explained.

So convincing were the refutations of Guinn's NAA findings that former HSCA chief counsel G. Robert Blakey denounced Guinn's NAA research as "junk science." Blakey had been deeply impressed with Guinn's NAA findings when they were presented to him in 1977. In fact, he leaked them to the press early in 1978 as decisive proof of Oswald's guilt. But, to his credit, when Blakey read the 2006 and 2007 refutations, he repudiated Guinn's NAA claims.

Summary of Randich and Grant's article in the Journal of Forensic Sciences
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/death-of-the-naa-verdict

"Chemical and Forensic Analysis of JFK Assassination Bullet Lots: Is a Second Shooter Possible?" (Spiegelman, Tobin,  James, Sheather, and Roundhill)
https://share.google/dfrci1tNxtQrbGHTz
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