JFK Assassination Forum

   The "theory" has always been that the 2 Guys/Silhouettes we see alongside the car on the Couch Film, was Shelley & Lovelady. As you can see, Lovelady is still in front of the TSBD front door, when these 2 Guys are walking alongside the car. Both still frames showing the 2 Guys and Lovelady on the TSBD steps, also include Officer Baker. Baker is in both still frames. This Proves these 2 still frames are happening almost simultaneously. Like building a wall, I have put together the "getaway" car one brick at a time. Some bricks bigger than others, but still 1 at a time. I have just destroyed the "theory" that the 2 Guys/Silhouettes are Shelley and Lovelady. Do you know of any 2 male eyewitnesses, that would have been able to get next to the "getaway" car only 20 seconds after the kill shot? Those 2 Guys/Silhouettes on the Couch Film still frame had to of exited the car.

So you don't think Baker could be in the same location at two different times.

Still waiting for your proof the car was a getaway car.

Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec.  He stops.  What to do next?
Should he continue down to the first floor?
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?
Should he lay low in the lunch room?
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to visit the coke machine & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide.  He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool.
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, he knows there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
They get to the 5th floor & take the east elevator to the 7th floor.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again.  And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous.  He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk.  Mrs Hine is also in the office but she doesn't notice Oswald, or forgets.
Reid in 3 re-enactments took exactly 120 sec to get to her desk, which is about right (ie to meet Oswald).
She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back.  Its not a good look.  He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn.  Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 16 paces to the jacket.
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston.  Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck.  He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.

Most of what you are arguing is based on time frames for which there is no reliable source. Nobody was running a stopwatch on 11/22/63 so we don't know how long it actually took anybody to move from point A to point B. You could do ten reenactments and it still isn't going to prove anything. All the approximations can do is show what is possible, not how long it actually took anybody to move the distances they did. You also have no way of knowing how the various actions sync up with one another. We simply don't have the data to do that. You've constructed a scenario you believe fits within the established parameters. Due to the variables involved, there are hundreds of ways to construct a scenario that would fit within the parameters equally well. You are also making assumptions about Oswald's mindset at various times. It's OK to speculate as long as we don't treat our speculations as established facts.

Here's what we do know. Oswald reached the lunchroom before Truly and Baker reached the second floor landing. It is impossible to say precisely how long after the third shot it took any of the three men to reach the second floor landing. We can only approximate that. For reasons stated in my previous post, it is likely Oswald entered the lunchroom just seconds before Truly and Baker reached the second floor landing. That is my speculation but it is speculation based on what we know is true. Oswald entered the lunchroom before Truly and Baker reached the landing and did so seconds before Baker spotted him because if it had been longer, the inner door would have closed behind him and Baker could not have spotted him.

I answered all of that a long time ago.
The timings from Lattimer's tests for lapel flip indicates a shot at z219.
But i hav pointed out that the design of Lattimer's test jacket (hiz jacket had a long lapel) & the pozzy of Lattimer's shot (he shot higher than in 1963)(& hiz slug hit hiz 1994 lapel & took a big chunk out of it) indicates that the shot woz at Z218, which iz what i hav sayd all along.

I find it interesting that Lattimer tested that. I've long hypothesized that there could be a brief time lag between the single bullet passing through JFK and JBC and JBC's jacket bulging out and wished that somebody would test that hypothesis. Now you are saying that had been done. I am surprised at how much lag time you and Lattimer believe there was, but I don't dispute it. 

I don't think we can assign precision to these tests because of the variables. Did Lattimer fire a shot directly through the jacket? If so, it would be pristine and meet much less resistance by the jacket as it passed through the material. The single bullet was not pristine as it exited JFK's throat. It began yawing immediately and based on the shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back, the axis of the bullet would have been almost perpendicular to the flight. It likely would have had a similar orientation when passing through the front of JBC's jacket. A pristine bullet, i.e. one that is not yawing, is going to meet little resistance when passing through a soft object. I have shot empty aluminum cans with my .44 Magnum and they don't even budge. My layman's opinion is that the more yaw, the more resistance a bullet will be met with. The more resistance, the quicker we would expect to see the jacket bulge. Again, this is my hypothesis, but I lack the means to test it out.

To me, the best indication of the time each shot was fired is the jiggle we see in Zapruder's film following each shot. Because the distance from Oswald's rifle to Zapruder's ears was a constant for all three shots, we should expect a similar time lag between shot and jiggle for all three shots. Let's start with the third shot since that is the easiest to pinpoint. A bullet striking JFK's head at Z313 would have taken about 2 frames to travel the 88 yards from Oswald to JFK. That would mean the shot was fired at Z311, followed by a severely blurred frame at Z318. That gives us a baseline of 7 frames between the shot being fired and Zapruder's involuntary response. If we apply that to the second shot, we see a blurring at Z227. Working back 7 frames would indicate a shot fired at Z220, close to what you and Lattimer have hypothesized. If we apply that to when I think the first shot was fired, we see a bad blurring at Z158 which would equate to a shot at Z151.

We need to recognize the limitations of our time piece which is Zapruder's camera. When I say there would be a 7 frame lag between the firing of the shot and Zapruder's reaction, that is an approximation. Even if that figure is a constant for all three shots, there's no reason to assume that number is going to be an integer. In fact, most likely it is not. Maybe it is 6.74 frames or maybe it is 7.31 frames or any number near 7. We would need to conduct a test using a camera capable of thousands of frames per second to determine a more precise lag time between shot and reaction. The best we can do with what we have is calculate an approximation, accurate to with 1/18 of a second.

Of course I remember, Pinko.
This is the lie...sorry, fabrication... I'm talking about, so obviously I remember.
I've argued all along that Shelley immediately ran from the steps and met Gloria coming the other way. He states this in his affidavit. (People such as yourself have to ignore the fact that, during his WC testimony, Shelley completely changes his story, stating that he stayed on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria ran up).
The 'fabrication' I have to keep calling you out on is the part where Shelley calls Lovelady to join him. You've invented that. It's your fabrication. It is not based on any testimonial evidence whatsoever. It's a lie you have to tell because you can't find any other way of getting Lovelady and Shelley on to the Elm Street Ext. within 25 seconds.
You have swallowed down Kamp's 'Lovelady' image without question even though it has been demonstrated that this image is dubious, to say the least, and now it's been pointed out that it's physically impossible for Shelley and Lovelady to do what they attested to in their WC testimonies AND be on Elm St within 25 seconds, you've had to invent this lie. If it's any comfort, Lance "I think I've Had An Accident" Payette did exactly the same thing.

On the other hand, my own identification of Lovelady in Darnell does not require me to lie my way through an explanation and makes perfect sense with the known timings:

    Bump! This is too important to simply let pass by. Here we see Officer Baker and Lovelady right in front of the TSBD front door. And at the same time, the Couch still frame shows those 2 Guys right alongside the "getaway" car. Why? Because these 2 Guys just got out of that car and are now distancing themselves from this intended "getaway" car. Those 2 Guys are obviously Not Shelley & Lovelady. We see Lovelady is still standing in front of the TSBD at the very same time that these 2 Guys are moving away from the car. The only way these 2 Guys could be in this position 20 seconds after the Kill Shot, is if they had just got out of that car. 

I've never taken the position that the single bullet struck during Z224, only that it is possible. It's also possible it could have struck during the gap between Z223 and Z224 or even during Z223. You have raised the possibility of a Z222 strike which I cannot dismiss. What we don't know is how much of a time lag, if any, there would be between the bullet passing through the front of JBC's jacket and the jacket bulging out. The reason I say that is because I've seen super slow motion footage of a bullet passing through wood. The bullet exits first and the splinters follow behind it. We are splitting hairs here because it is a matter of small fractions of a second and the Z-film simply doesn't have enough frames per second to precisely measure these events. The difference between a Z222 strike and a Z224 strike is only 1/9 of a second.

I answered all of that a long time ago.
The timings from Lattimer's tests for lapel flip indicates a shot at z219.
But i hav pointed out that the design of Lattimer's test jacket (hiz jacket had a long lapel) & the pozzy of Lattimer's shot (he shot higher than in 1963)(& hiz slug hit hiz 1994 lapel & took a big chunk out of it) indicates that the shot woz at Z218, which iz what i hav sayd all along.