JFK Assassination Forum

Hey, hey, hey, people, Serious Researcher Lance has done what we serious researcher types do: I went to the Ed Forum and quickly skimmed all 405 posts in which the term "Bagley" is mentioned. I even found a few by me, in which I (in 2018) apparently knew more about this Bagley-Nosenko-KGB stuff than I recall now. I pointed out that the CT enthusiasm for Bagley seems almost entirely to relate to his very latter-day revelations to Blunt and Newman that Oswald was a "witting asset" of the CIA, which he (Bagley) seemed to know nothing about while he was employed by the CIA or, indeed, until he encountered Blunt at age 85.

Overall, the enthusiasm for Bagley at the Ed Forum was distinctly muted. Some enthusiasm, yes (on the part of "witting asset" fans), but little for the Monster Plot and even considerable skepticism that Bagley himself was a disinformation agent. My skepticism relates primarily to the reality that (1) he had pretty obvious monetary incentives for the bombshells he revealed long after he had been given the boot by the CIA, and (2) it's pretty easy to view those bombshells as late-in-life grudge-settling efforts. But I digress ...

What I found was the VERY FIRST thread in which TG floated his "KGB stuff." It was in 2018, and he called it a "Theory in Progress." The responses were not kind. Jim Di dismissed it as "Tommy's mole madness." Kirk G. said any KGB theory was way out of the ballpark because the Soviets had "no motive." But I disgress again ...

The value is that TG actually explained his fledgling theory fairly succinctly, as set forth below. I now understand the Trump tie-in. It seems goofy to me, but at least I understand it.

Here ya go, from the keyboard of TG in 2018:

Now let me ask YOU a question:

*IF* there was a mole or a network of embedded KGB-types, would they have been willing to kill JFK (or any other U.S. president for that matter) if they had been instructed by their KGB / GRU handler(s) to do so, to enable ever-increasing KGB / GRU influence on our country through "active measures counterintelligence operations" (which started in 1921) and "strategic deception operations" (which started in 1959), thereby giving rise to paralyzing, cancer-like propaganda and disinformation (e.g., "The evil, evil CIA killed JFK," and "The evil, evil CIA killed JFK via the 'Harvey & Lee and Two Marguerites Program,'" and "The evil, evil CIA and the Mafia ... ")?

So that, you know, ..... EVENTUALLY a Russian Mafia-compromised (and therefore eminently blackmail-able) anti-NATO "useful idiot" like Donald James Trump could be installed as our president?

(Or do you believe that some disgruntled DNC or NSA insider not only hacked the DNC's and Podesta's e-mails, but gave said e-mails to Julian Assange and DNCLeaks? And that Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear and Guccifer 2.0 are just an evil, evil CIA "cover story" or "fantasy"?)

LOL

--  Tommy

PS:  I would suggest that pieces of the puzzle lie in Bill Simpich's "State Secret," John Newman's "Oswald and the CIA," and Tennent H. Bagley's "Spy Wars" and "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," and Mark Riebling's "Wedge".

Still, someone needs to clarify for me: First, what did the KGB gain by offing JFK in favor of LBJ? Second, if the KGB had been almost fantastically successful over a period of more than 100 years in virtually deconstructing America, culminating in the election of a left-leaning president like Obama and the candidacies of lefties like Hillary and Kamala, why would said KGB have done an about-face and blessed us with The Donald? Why would Hillary, Biden and Harris not have meshed perfectly with the deconstruction of America via the continuing long march through the institutions? If the KGB actually thought installing The Donald would advance their deconstruction agenda more than Hillary and Kamala, one can only conclude that, far from being supermen, they were dolts.

Is it possible I'm just not clever enough to grasp the nuances of TG's KGB stuff?

[Tom's] "grasp of all things KGB" is, of course, completely at odds with the CIA's own analyses in 1976 (Hart) and 2011 (Royden), as well as the many CIA colleagues who derided Angleton and Bagley's obsession with the imaginary "Monster Plot," and is derived almost entirely from the dubious sources he cites ad nauseam, which are rejected by the majority of intelligence scholars.

Dear FPL,

John L. Hart, former COS Saigon and the guy for whom Tennent H. Bagley "ripped a new one" during his HSCA testimony?

That John L. Hart?

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32273600.pdf


-- Tom


PS "Mr. X" is KGB Major Anatoliy Golitsyn who defected to the U.S. on 15 December 1961.

PPS You should check out my new post at my Substack page, "How the KGB Zombified the CIA and the FBI."

It's titled "Fancy Pants gets a whuppin'"

LP--

I admire TG's command of all things KGB, and he is a tonic to all the lefties that usually flood the JFKA zone.

I have refreshed my understanding of G2/KGB thanks to TG, reviewing Tennent Bagley, Gus Russo and John Newman, and TG's writing.

I still don't know who perped the JFKA, and I still suspect a very small conspiracy, literally three guys, including LHO. No one above them.

However, whereas before I tended to lean towards Alpha 66, I am now open to a G2-KGB (likely, lower level dudes) plot.

Interestingly, many Cuban exiles were thought to be double agents, including Rolando Cubela.

That leaves open the possibility of G2 assets, who appeared to anti-Castro exiles, linking up with LHO.

I advise TG to be more civil in his commentary, and avoid current-day politics, but there are far worse, such as the leftist anti-Semitic crackpots running the Education Forum.

I will take TG by a country mile over the Education Forum ghouls.

To paraphrase: You have no idea what he's talking about either.

TG's "grasp of all things KGB" is, of course, completely at odds with the CIA's own analyses in 1976 (Hart) and 2011 (Royden), as well as the many CIA colleagues who derided Angleton and Bagley's obsession with the imaginary "Monster Plot," and is derived almost entirely from the dubious sources he cites ad nauseam, which are rejected by the majority of intelligence scholars. I don't see that they add anything whatsoever to an analsysis of the JFKA.

Oswald was sent to Moscow to ferret out moles: Pure speculation. Oswald engaged heavily with the KGB in Russia: Pure speculation and at odds with all known facts. Oswald came back to the U.S. for some KGB-related purpose: Pure speculation. Marina was a KGB sleeper agent: Pure speculation and at odds with all known facts. The election of The Donald was somehow Putin-orchestrated and The Donald's presidency is in furtherance of some KGB objective extending back to the origin of the Monster Plot: Patent nonsense.

I submit that absolutely no one can actually articulate a version of TG's narrative, from the Angleton years through the Trump presidency, that comes close to making sense. If someone can, go for it! That's the challenge posed by this thread.

The KGB folks were and are rather nasty specimens: Sure, no breaking news there. They would have loved to, and surely did, plant moles in the CIA: Sure. They attempted to ferret out CIA moles in their organization: Sure. They made use of events like the JFKA to foment unrest and plant disinformation that served their purposes: Undoubtedly.

I see no substantive difference between the CIA and KGB in respect to these things, and it is absurd to think the KGB had "10 feet tall" superhuman abilities that the CIA lacked.

I see nothing in TG's posts that actually has anything at all to do with Oswald or the JFKA, except in the most tangential sense (e.g., the "Dear Mr. Hunt" KGB ploy). TG's posts seem to me virtually NOTHING but expressions of his TDS. A not-completely-irrational description of his KGB stuff might have been possible if he had focused his wrath on Clinton, Obama, Biden and Harris as examples of the KGB's efforts, but to try to fit Trump into this narrative seems just flat-out nutty. He must do this, however, because his TDS is his overriding motivation; everything else flows backwards from that. (All IMHO, of course, and I invite anyone who cares to dispute it to do so.)

At the Ed Forum this morning, Sean Coleman (a devout CTer, as I recall) posted the following - which, thanks to TG, is equally apt here:

This is not JFK.
This is political pie throwing.
It’s left wing spouting. Soap box shouting.
Opinionated bluff.
If we want this tripe we’ll watch the news, read the papers, catch up on our devices.

John [Simkin], this is your doing. Since you returned to comment you have strayed from the wonders of the assassination and gone all non relevant massively left wing biased political. I suppose this is your site though.
 
Again, I mention “Theories on the assassination” is parked in the waiting room, all Trump/Epstein crap gets centre stage!!?? Wrong way round innit!!
 
I think I’ve donated 150 to 250 clams to this site over the years because of its awesomeness. Which has gone.
 
Ps. My political views span both L & R. I subscribe to neither. More logical realist than rabid politico.

LP--

I admire TG's command of all things KGB, and he is a tonic to all the lefties that usually flood the JFKA zone.

I have refreshed my understanding of G2/KGB thanks to TG, reviewing Tennent Bagley, Gus Russo and John Newman, and TG's writing.

I still don't know who perped the JFKA, and I still suspect a very small conspiracy, literally three guys, including LHO. No one above them.

However, whereas before I tended to lean towards Alpha 66, I am now open to a G2-KGB (likely, lower level dudes) plot.

Interestingly, many Cuban exiles were thought to be double agents, including Rolando Cubela.

That leaves open the possibility of G2 assets, who appeared to anti-Castro exiles, linking up with LHO.

I advise TG to be more civil in his commentary, and avoid current-day politics, but there are far worse, such as the leftist anti-Semitic crackpots running the Education Forum.

I will take TG by a country mile over the Education Forum ghouls.

Since I am in Philosopher (i.e. Epistemologist) mode, I must observe the goofiness here. Royell's "research" is one step above pure unadulterated pareidolia and several steps below Jake Maxwell's photographic essays.

I may be wrong, but I always think Jake's posts are at least slightly "wink wink nudge nudge" tongue-in-cheek. Not entirely, but at least he does seem to have fun with his efforts and to remain steadfastly good-natured in the face of the barbs hurled his way. If I were inclined to invent a Lance sock puppet, it would be someone like Jake who just keeps plowing ahead, amusing himself, and confounding everyone else as to what to make of him.

But not Royell and those like him. No, they are grimly serious. They think they are engaged in cutting-edge research and that the fault is yours if you don't see what they do.

Royell has spotted in the photos and videos that what he calls the Huge Gates may have been open and that a car was parked in front of the TSBD. And that's pretty much it. Everything else is pure pareidolia-level speculation.

The car, Royell says, was a "getaway car." The Huge Gates were "left open" to accommodate the conspirators. The two figures that pretty much everyone else, even other CTers, agrees are Shelley and Lovelady are conspirators en route to a mysterious "boxcar" that lesser researchers have confused with a "passenger" car. I am unable even to follow how this supposedly makes sense in Royell's own mind.

What goes on inside the head of someone who thinks like this? At least to your resident Epistemologist, this question is far more interesting than the supposed bombshell research. What is essentially pareidolia or someone's interpretation of a Rorshach blot becomes "research," "fact" and "theory." In all likelihood, the Huges Gates and car mean precisely nothing insofar as the JFKA are concerned and the two guys are indeed Shelley and Lovelady; to claim more than this 62 years after the event, you would need something far more compelling than "hey, it could be true!"

   My discovery of the car Not being on the Wiegman Film and seconds later being on the Darnell/Couch Films is a major discovery. My proving that the Huge Gates were "Wide Open" is another major discovery. These 2 discoveries are attached at the hip. That "getaway" car proves a Conspiracy.
   Shelley and Lovelady being those 2 figures on the Darnell/Couch Films is a physical impossibility. They could Not be told by Calvery what had happened to JFK and then be positioned walking down the middle of the Elm St Extension only 20 seconds after the kill shot. Now, if YOU want to reset the time stamping of Officer Baker entering the TSBD, and his then encountering Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, I would be very interested in hearing all about that. On the other hand, could 2 Guys inside that "getaway" car get out of the car and then walk down the Elm St Extension 20 seconds after the kill shot? You bet they could. They did.
    An additional discovery is my exposing the DPD Cop inside the Rail Road Yard on the Darnell/Martin films as to NOT being Officer Haygood.  I was recently researching the rail road yard and ran across a film snippet firmly putting the erroneous Haygood ID to bed. This is yet another Tick/Tick Issue. And further proof of a Conspiracy. This is where knowing the Testimony of witnesses is of vital importance. During his WC Testimony, Haygood confirmed his having made a 12:35 radio transmission from his parked motorcycle near the Triple Underpass. This gave Haygood a 5 minute Tick/Tock. That Tick/Tock began when Haygood was turning his motorcycle from Main St onto Houston St. The "No Glove Cop" that we see walking across the railroad yard and then toward/down the Elm St Extension on the Darnell/Martin Films NEVER made that 5 minute Tick/Tock. The film snippet I recently unearthed proves this without question.  I will be posting my recent film snippet discovery soon.  ........................STAY TUNED  ........................................