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51
I don’t see why the WC investigators would want Bakers time to the  steps to be as soon as 20-25 secs post shots because they’ve got to make sure there was enough time for their suspected 6th floor shooter Oswald to be able to get down to the 2nd floor lunchroom. Likewise They were careful to assign 2 minutes as the time for Mrs Reid’s return to the 2nd floor office so she’s not seeing Oswald too early before Baker/Truly do.

Baker himself thought it probably was closer to 90 secs post shots when he finally got to the door of the 2nd floor lunchroom.

It’s all depending on Mrs Garner. What time did she follow behind Adams and Stiles. She never gave any specific time estimate other than to say she was “right behind them” and followed “ almost immediately”.
So is that less than 30 secs? If so  then there is no way a 6th floor shooter using the stairs could have gone past her unseen. (however he could have used one of the elevators like Jack Dougherty allegedly did)

Could it be as long as 1 minute post shots? If so a 6th floor shooter CAN get down it the 4th floor landing and start down the 4th floor stairs to 3rd floor without being seen by Garner.

From what excerpts I’ve read from Barry Ernest book pertaining to Garners statements one particular one being she changed her statement from seeing Adam’s and Stiles (A/S) go down the stairs to HEARING THEM go down.

I have not found any clarification of what exactly Garner heard. If she’s saying she “ heard them” then to me that implies she heard their voices. If so then she could not have waited 1 minute to follow A/S because A/S have exited the stairwell to the 1st floor and it’s improbable Garner have heard their voices then.

As to what reason Lovelady and Shelley are suddenly more interested in going back in to the TSBD quickly rather than go investigate  all the commotion on the GK, it does seem kind of strange. Maybe seeing Baker running to the steps with his gun in hand was more compelling than what was happening elsewhere.

Royell's argument is really weird.
It is clearly the case that those wanting to demonstrate that Oswald was the lone assassin would leave as much time as possible for Truly and Baker to get to the second floor lunchroom. This would give Oswald plenty of time to get down from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom.
The time trials involving Baker and Truly created a real headache for the WC Sham because they were so quick.
In fact, it was the speed of the Truly/Baker time trials that created the very first conspiracy theories - how could Truly and Baker have interacted with Oswald on the 2nd floor 90 seconds after the shooting if Oswald was supposed to be on the 6th floor?

The Tom Dillard pic. taken between 10 - 15 seconds of the shooting shows Adams, Styles and Garner had already left their parade watching positions - in accordance with Adams' assertion that she had decided to race down to the scene of the shooting before the limo had even reached the underpass.

As for Shelley and Lovelady...they lied about their movements because they were covering something up that involved their presence near the elevators within seconds of the shooting.
52
   I have thought about this a lot. For starters, you gotta have Calvery in position on the TSDB Steps lickety split. She is Not on any Single Image racing down the sidewalk or in the street heading toward the TSBD front door. There is absolutely nothing supporting her being there talking with Lovelady on the TSBD front steps only :15 seconds after the kill shot. I fully appreciate the quicker you put Calvery on those steps, also serves to support my theory of those 2 Guys walking alongside the "Getaway" Car were originally inside that same car. Still, I believe the individuals filmed by Darnell & Couch been given an accelerated time stamping.

Let's say Gloria was in a position to see JFK's head explode and that made her run as fast as she could back towards the TSBD building.
It has been demonstrated time and time again that she could have covered that distance in 15 seconds.
If there is something about the calculations that is confusing you please let me know.
Look at the Weigman film - less than 10 seconds after the shooting and the area that included Gloria and her friends is totally clear.
Look at the 'woman in white' on the steps in Darnell and Couch, linking arms with the woman in the black head scarf and refute that these are the same women we see in the Z-film. This is the evidence that Gloria was the woman on the steps talking with Lovelady in Darnell/Couch.
Rather than your 'instinct' provide something stronger.
53
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:12:40 PM »
Ermmm... I'm the one who was talking about the two unrecorded bullet fragments supposedly recovered from the limo by an unknown agent at an unknown time that had nothing to do with a legitimate examination of the limo crime scene.

I'M THE ONE TELLING YOU ABOUT IT!!

You're full of shit.
Quote

You are the one going on about another bullet that was recovered.

It was dumbass. It was recovered in pieces on the floor of the limo.
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Clearly you are talking sh!t, as usual. You have been called out on it and are now trying to make it look as though you weren't talking complete sh!t.
Are you so ignorant as to try to pretend there was another bullet 'recovered'??
Apparently so.
Or maybe you don't understand the difference between a bullet and multiple bullet fragments.

A recovered fragmented bullet is still a bullet. Is that too hard for your pea brain to comprehend?
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Just to try to cut through John's utter ignorance of this case...:
There is ZERO EVIDENCE CE399 was found at Parkland.

You're a damn liar.
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2 bullet fragments that have ZERO PROVENANCE were, apparently, handed over to the same FBI lab that faked the appearance of CE399.
Lots of dubious ballistic shenanigans appear to have gone on at the Washington labs, including the miracuolus appearance of CE399 and Q9.

As is stand practice for CTs when the evidence doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you question the evidence instead of your FUBAR beliefs.
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Is it possible the FBI were faking ballistic evidence?
Please provide us the evidence that supports that suggestion.
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Is it possible that Hoover had already determined the outcome of the investigation before it had even begun?
Hoover was possibly the most clueless person the FBI regarding the JFKA. Apparently whatever was being passed up the chain of command was getting garbled before it got to him. His briefings for LBJ sounded like kid trying to fake his way through a book report for a book he hadn't read.
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Is it possible the WC Sham was an extension of the FBI's pre-determined 'investigation'?
[/quote]

Is it possible you're loony? No, it's  certainty.
54
Hill heard the first shot.
He also heard the second shot.
He doesn't remember hearing the third shot as he had a lot on his plate at that moment, including stopping Jackie from jumping off the back of the limo.
55
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:01:14 PM »
Oh, goody. The evidence doesn't jibe with Danny Boy's beliefs so obviously it must be the evidence that's faulty.

What evidence?
What evidence is there that CE399 was found at Parkland?
56
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 07:58:23 PM »
Someone let lil' Tommy out of his pen.
In your tiny mind CE399 somehow represents a bullet that smashed one of the most dense, hardest bones in the body.
EVERY SINGLE TEST done with a bullet fired into this bone deformed the bullet to a massive extent, barely recognisable from its original shape.
But your tiny, tiny brain believes uttering the chant "tumbling" somehow, in some insane version of reality, makes things alright.

Let's be clear about one thing...Frazier's manipulation of the ballistic evidence wasn't part of some 'pre-assassination' conspiracy.
He was being directly instructed from Hoover to make the Oswald-Was-The-Lone Assassin decree a reality.

This is why CE399 only appears in the Washington labs.
It's why the bullet that fell to the operating floor from JBC's stretcher became the fragments labelled Q9 in the Washington labs.

Here's an experiment for your lil' brain Tommy - name a single piece of ballistic evidence that is identified as being from Oswald's rifle that has a remotely recognisable chain of custody.

 Thumb1:

Oh, goody. The evidence doesn't jibe with Danny Boy's beliefs so obviously it must be the evidence that's faulty.
57
The other agents in the followup car heard three shots despite operating under the same disadvantages vis-a-vis the motorcycle engines, so I'm not sure if that's the answer.

I don't think that's true. Hickey's report indicated JFK had been hit by the first shot. He said the next two shots were so close together that there was no time between them. That indicates to me he didn't hear the first shot and heard a double sound from the last shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm

Landis' report only indicated there were two shots and that the second shot was the head shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm

Ready's report was vague about the number of shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm

Robert's report indicated 3 shots but was unsure whether the headshot was the second or third shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm

Kinney's (the driver) report indicated just 2 shots
https://www.jfk-online.com/kinney.html

McIntyre's report indicated 3 shots but estimated only 5 seconds for all three shots
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-mcint.htm

Bennett's report seemed to be the most accurate regarding the number, timing, and sequence of the shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-benne.htm

David Powers affidavit indicated 3 shots but according to his description, JFK started leaning left after the first shot which indicates he thought JFK had been hit by the first shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/powers1.htm

Lastly, we have Kenny O'Donnell's WC testimony in which he describes 3 shots in 5 or 6 seconds with the first two being closer together
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/odonnell.htm

In just the Secret Service follow up car, we have 9 divergent versions of the shooting. People wonder why I have so little faith in eyewitness recollections.
58
There's no credible reason to doubt that the two men seen fast-walking up the extension in the Gerda Dunkel zoomed slow-motion Couch/Darnell clip are Lovelady & Shelley...The men are right where they were supposed to be according to testimony...Lovelady has the same dimension geometric plaid pattern as he is seen wearing in other photos and same bald spot...And Shelley has his body shape, black suit jacket, white shirt collar, and Duck's Bahookie hair doo.....And he pulls up and talks to Karan Hicks as she goes by...Anything less strikes me as deliberate misinformation designed to confuse...

This is evidence enough for persons truly seeking correct identification...

I believe the obtaining and enhancement of the 6th Floor Museum 1st generation copy of Darnell will show Molina as the man being called Lovelady on the steps...

Honestly Brian, you are such a massive disappointment.
I was hailed as the "new Brian Doyle" for my belief that Prayer Man was Sarah Stanton. I took it as a badge of honour and that you were some renegade researcher fighting against mass hysteria.
But it turns out you're just a dick.
You have exactly the same mentality as the worst Nutters - Corbett, "Smith" and Payette. It's something I should start a thread about - people who believe that just because they think a thing means its a fact.

I would like you to stop posting on this thread as it is a genuine attempt to get to the bottom of a specific issue and you have nothing to offer other than your own, unsupported opinion.
It's funny that you think you are hounded because you are on the right trail...that's not it...it's because you are a know-nothing blowhard who believes his opinion trumps any facts.
If you have the balls for a genuine debate that involves citing sources and actually providing evidence for your claims then let's go.

"There's no credible reason to doubt that the two men seen fast-walking up the extension in the Gerda Dunkel zoomed slow-motion Couch/Darnell clip are Lovelady & Shelley"

ALL EVIDENCE relating to this issue disputes this identification of Shelley and Lovelady.
There is ZERO EVIDENCE supporting this claim.
NONE.
There is nothing in Dunkel's Couch/Darnell clip that suggests the intricate shirt detail and bald patch of Lovelady - this is a lie

"The men are right where they were supposed to be according to testimony"

Another ridiculous lie.
You say "according to testimony", Royell points out that they testified that they didn't move from the steps for at least 3 minutes and you start waffling about how they were made to lie. If they were made to lie how can it be "according to testimony"? Are you aware of the sh!t you post?

Lovelady has the same dimension geometric plaid pattern as he is seen wearing in other photos and same bald spot.

What "other photos"?
Provide these photos.
Cite these photos.
Post these photos.
Somehow support the nonsense you are posting.

.And he pulls up and talks to Karan Hicks as she goes by

I literally can't believe you keep posting this lie over and over again.

59
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 07:35:33 PM »
Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Why did the evil, evil bad guys create such a strangely deformed bullet?

How did the evil, evil bad guys create such a strangely deformed bullet?

And how many evil, evil bad guys were involved in the assassination and or it's "ongoing cover up ," anyway?

Oodles and gobs, or just a few?

--Tom

Someone let lil' Tommy out of his pen.
In your tiny mind CE399 somehow represents a bullet that smashed one of the most dense, hardest bones in the body.
EVERY SINGLE TEST done with a bullet fired into this bone deformed the bullet to a massive extent, barely recognisable from its original shape.
But your tiny, tiny brain believes uttering the chant "tumbling" somehow, in some insane version of reality, makes things alright.

Let's be clear about one thing...Frazier's manipulation of the ballistic evidence wasn't part of some 'pre-assassination' conspiracy.
He was being directly instructed from Hoover to make the Oswald-Was-The-Lone Assassin decree a reality.

This is why CE399 only appears in the Washington labs.
It's why the bullet that fell to the operating floor from JBC's stretcher became the fragments labelled Q9 in the Washington labs.

Here's an experiment for your lil' brain Tommy - name a single piece of ballistic evidence that is identified as being from Oswald's rifle that has a remotely recognisable chain of custody.

 Thumb1:
60
The other agents in the followup car heard three shots despite operating under the same disadvantages vis-a-vis the motorcycle engines, so I'm not sure if that's the answer.
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