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51
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Former James Fetzer supporters.
« Last post by Brian Doyle on Yesterday at 03:43:16 PM »
dang, Rob Clark is still around?  we met back in 2013 in Front Royal, Va., where my wife & I have some property on the Shenandoah.  he has done well for himself to have lasted this long.  have you done well for yourself, Albert?


I was looking at property in that little corner of West Virginia up by Harper's Ferry by Keys Gap...Came close to buying...Clark is from Winchester or one of those towns on I-81...

Another podcaster that relies on the research clique and doesn't fact-check...
52
What do you mean, "If the shot was from behind"?

It hit him in his back.
I meant if the bullet trajectory was from directly back to front of his torso ie. it could not have missed the scapula and struck the fifth rib as it did.
Quote
Regardless, . . .

ME: Is this statement correct? -- "The bullet that struck John Connally on 11/22/63 penetrated his right side, not his back, and struck his fifth rib with such great force that it broke it near the spine. It did not penetrate or hit his scapula. If the bullet had hit him in the back, it would have, at most, glanced the rib."

Perplexity AI: No. As written, the first and last sentences conflict with the primary medical testimony.

Dr. Robert Shaw placed Connally’s entrance wound in the right posterior shoulder, medial to the axillary fold—i.e., the back/posterior chest, not simply “his right side.” He testified that the projectile passed through the chest wall and hit the fifth rib at approximately its midpoint, following the rib’s slant and shattering about 10 cm of it.

The medical testimony supports saying that there was no documented scapular penetration or scapular fracture. It does not support saying that the bullet struck the fifth rib “near the spine”: Shaw said its midpoint.

And the final claim is not correct as a categorical statement. A projectile entering from the posterior chest can miss the scapula and still directly strike—and severely shatter—the fifth rib. A posterior entry does not logically require only a glancing contact.

Accurate revision

The bullet that wounded John Connally entered the right posterior shoulder/chest, medial to the axillary fold, without a documented strike of the scapula. It passed through the chest wall, struck the fifth rib at approximately its midpoint, and shattered roughly 10 cm of the rib. The fact that the entrance was posterior does not, by itself, mean the rib impact had to be glancing.

ME: Disregarding the wounds to his wrist and to his thigh, are the entrance and exit wound locations plus the shattering of ten centimeters of his fifth rib consistent with the theory that he was hit when his back was turned towards the TSBD?

Perplexity AI: Yes — in broad anatomical and geometric terms, Connally’s chest wounds and fifth-rib damage are consistent with a shot from the sixth-floor TSBD when he was rotated so that his right posterior chest [i.e., his back] faced back toward the Depository. They are not, however, sufficiently specific to establish that origin on their own.

Wound course

The documented course was an entrance in Connally’s right posterior chest/back, medial to the axillary fold, descending through the chest, striking and fragmenting the fifth rib at approximately its midpoint, then exiting the anterior right chest below the nipple. The Commission’s account likewise describes an entrance on the right side of his back and a downward chest trajectory.

If Connally had turned to his right — as the Commission’s reconstruction proposed — his right posterior thorax would be exposed toward a shooter behind and above him at the TSBD. A downward, forward-moving projectile could therefore enter the posterior chest [i.e., his back], strike a rib obliquely, and emerge through the front of the right chest.

The rib fracture

Shattering approximately 10 cm of the rib suggests a high-energy collision, potentially along an oblique segment of the rib; it does not require a frontal impact. It is compatible with the Commission’s claimed rear-to-front, downward course. The fracture’s extent cannot determine whether the firearm was in the TSBD rather than another rearward or elevated location.

ME: You said, "Shattering approximately 10 cm of the rib suggests a high-energy collision, potentially along an oblique segment of the rib; it does not require a frontal impact."

Question: Does it require a side impact?


Perplexity AI: No. It does not require a side impact.

Shattering a long rib segment requires significant energy transfer and a trajectory that intersects the rib, but the direction can be posterior-to-anterior, lateral-to-medial, anterior-to-posterior, or some oblique combination. The clinically relevant geometry is the projectile’s angle relative to the curved, sloping rib, not whether it approached from the victim’s anatomical side. Bone damage and the wound tract must be reconstructed together to infer direction.

Applied to Connally

If “side impact” means a shot entering Connally’s right flank/lateral chest, the evidence does not require it. A shot entering his right posterior chest could strike the fifth rib forcefully as it moved forward and downward; if its course was angled across or partly along the rib, it could fragment an extended portion of it.

Conversely, the approximately 10 cm fracture does suggest that the bullet’s contact had a meaningful component along the rib’s length—an oblique collision rather than a trivial surface graze. But “oblique to the rib” is not synonymous with “from the side.” The path can be oblique to a rib while originating behind and above Connally.

ME: Does it require the bullet's penetrating his right side instead of his back?

Perplexity AI: No. The rib fragmentation does not require a bullet to have entered Connally’s right lateral side rather than his back.

A bullet entering the right posterior chest/back can intersect the fifth rib at an oblique angle and transfer enough energy to fracture a long section, especially if its path has a component along the rib’s curved/sloping course. The critical variables are the impact angle relative to the rib, velocity, projectile orientation, and the rib’s geometry—not whether the skin entrance is classified as “side” or “back.”

The medical descriptions themselves locate Connally’s entrance in the right posterior chest/back, while describing the fifth-rib fragmentation. Thus, the documented injury is direct evidence that severe rib damage is compatible with a posterior entrance.
Your AI misconstrues what I am saying.  I did not say the bullet struck near the spine. I said it struck the fifth rib with enough force to cause a fracture near the spine. I was referring to the medical observation of Dr. Shaw for the HSCA medical panel that the bullet struck the fifth rib in the right armpit with enough force that it pushed the rib in and caused a fracture of that rib farther up the rib ie. near the spine.
53
OK Brian Doyle.. now you've gotten the better of my curiosity. So.... you believe there was a real Oswald and then an Oswald doppelganger. Which one was killed by Ruby? What happened to the other one? Who else was in on the plot? Marguerite? Robert Oswald? Marina?


Helen Forrest said the Oswald who got in to the Station Wagon looked so much like Lee Oswald that he could have been his twin...She said he came from behind the west side of the Depository...

Frazier saw the long-sleeved Oswald, that Truly & Baker encountered in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room, exit the Loading Dock and head down Houston St...This was Harvey and he took the bus and taxi...

Harvey in the long-sleeved shirt was standing in the Lobby by the door when Lee in the white T-shirt stumbled down the front SE stairs and in to the other end of the Lobby by the stairs...Harvey saw Lee and panicked and tried to leave the Depository through the front door...Lovelady was outside on the steps (or inside the building with Shelley by the Lobby) and saw this happen...An un-named cop saw Harvey's panic and stopped him and ordered him back in and to "step aside and wait"...Shelley saw this police interest in Harvey and detention and intervened telling the un-named cop that Harvey was OK and was an employee...In the meantime Lee saw what he had stumbled in to and took a 180 degree hook turn at the base of the SE stairs and in to the Utility Closet under the stairs...He would be seen still in there by Campbell when Campbell returned from his trip to the Knoll...Shelley made sure Harvey did not cross paths again with Lee by taking him out the Loading Dock where Harvey then headed down Houston and up Elm to the bus...Lee waited and then left out the west doors of the 1st Floor of the Depository - making sure he went in the opposite direction of Harvey and did not cross paths with him again...CIA tactics were used...Lee made sure he got a Coca Cola as a prop so people who saw him would think he was Harvey, who also had a Coca Cola...Mrs Reid spoiled their plan however by too accurately describing Lee's white T-shirt as Lee strolled through the 2nd Floor Offices on his way to the SE stairs...

Harvey bought a ticket and went in to the Texas Theater around 1:05pm...Lee then attracted attention to himself and ran in to the Texas Theater after the Tippit shooting and went up to the balcony...Bernard Haire saw Lee taken out the rear door of the Theater and put in a police car...Stuart Reed then photographed Harvey being led out the front of the Theater to CIA Westbrook's un-marked police car...Julia Postal broke down because she was ordered not to admit she sold Lee a ticket...


Lori Spencer, Lisa Pease - they are now getting the full ego pleasure ray, spot light in front of the Luna Task Force (which is what this is really about and Simkin came back to get a piece of it)...
54
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Last post by Brian Doyle on Yesterday at 02:56:32 PM »
                                                   "......unrecorded phone call with......................"

          You call your alleged, "unrecorded phone call", research?  Evidence?  You're delusional.


What isn't credible here is the lack of curiosity over this by the research community...They would rather toe the line on fidelity to DiEugenio than crack the case...They would rather maintain their insider's clique than further investigate this...Some of them might even be government agents pretending to be researchers...How credible are people who make sure the person who discovered this is kept off their forum?...

By the way, answering a complex description of evidence with a question is a way of avoiding answering and is a sign that the person asking the question knows what he's answering is true and he cannot answer it directly...It is a way of taking control of the narrative in order to avoid information...
55
Fauci isn't going to face criminal prosecution because he can simply take the Fifth Amendment and refuse to answer any questions. The only way to hold him accountable is to grant him immunity which strips away his right to plead the Fifth and force him to answer questions, If he were to lie under oath after being granted the immunity, he could be prosecuted for perjury. I doubt he would be that dumb. The same lawyers who told him to take the Fifth in response to every question asked by the senators would tell him to tell the absolute truth because he couldn't be prosecuted for anything he said as long as it was truthful. Fauci wouldn't face criminal charges, but he would be exposed for the lies he told during the pandemic and for his awful recommendations that did the country irreparable harm. That is the best we can hope for at that point.
There is nothing in the diary showing a lie. What is the evidence that he knowingly uttered a falsehood?
56
I like how you pretend you don't know that there were three spent shells found in the sniper's nest. While not proof positive, it does corroborate the consensus of the witnesses that there were three shots, including the testimony of the three employees who were directly below Oswald. The three spent shells aren't proof positive of three shots, but I find it extremely unlikely that both the consensus is wrong AND Oswald started with an empty shell in the rifle, because that is the only way there could only have been two shots.

BTW, what do you believe caused Tague's injury?

While not proof positive,

Exactly, it is not proof of anything other than maybe an extra ejected shell casing. Like the WC postulated.

You constantly state the witnesses are unreliable except on this one issue, and then you only reference the earwitness testimony. A little hypocritical.

...the consensus of the witnesses that there were three shots, including the testimony of the three employees who were directly below Oswald.

Did you purposely leave out mentioning the eyewitnesses in your consensus.

The three employees below the SN never stated that at all. Not one of them on their worst day indicated there was an early missed shot. You already know this.

BTW, what do you believe caused Tague's injury?

According to Tague it had nothing to do with the first shot.



57
There are two other problems with Posner's theory, as I explain in my article on the Tague wounding and in my chapter on the subject in A Comforting Lie.

One, Posner assumes that his tree-branch-collision bullet was fired between Z140 and Z166, since this is the timeframe in which five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement behind the limo. Now, before I continue, I should note that Posner deserves credit for at least acknowledging that a bullet did strike the pavement before Z166. Many WC apologists deny the pavement strike because they view it as too problematic for their version of the shooting, even though five witnesses saw it happen.

Anyway, to assume that an FMJ bullet fired from the sixth-floor window hit a branch of the intervening oak tree, we would have to believe that the supposed lone gunman completely missed, not only Kennedy, but the entire limousine, from an elevation of 60 feet and from a distance of less than 140 feet. Even the Warren Commission (WC), in a rare display of logic and common sense, admitted it was hard to believe the gunman would have been so severely off the mark with his first and closest shot:

On the other hand, the greatest cause for doubt that the first shot missed is the improbability that the same marksman who twice hit a moving target would be so inaccurate on the first and closest of his shots as to miss completely, not only the target, but the large automobile. (WCR, p. 111)

Two, in order for Posner's errant shot to have had any chance of fragmenting from hitting an oak tree limb, assuming for the sake of argument this is even possible, the missile would have had to strike far enough up the limb so the limb would not bend or snap when the bullet hit. This would have been a staggering, unbelievable miss if fired between Z140 and Z166 from the sixth-floor window. To hit a limb far enough up its structure during this timeframe, the limo, much less JFK, would not have even been in the gunman's field of aim when he pulled the trigger.

Furthermore, as mentioned in previous replies, a bullet that hit far enough up an oak limb that that the limb did not bend or snap would not have fragmented into several fragments but would have penetrated deep into the limb and would have remained substantially intact. Such a collision certainly would not have caused the copper jacket to separate from the lead core, but Posner must assume this happened because the smear taken from the curb scar contained no copper (WCR, p. 116).

Anyone can verify in sources on bullet behavior that an FMJ bullet will penetrate and not break apart when it hits oak wood. I asked Google AI what would happen if an FMJ bullet traveling at medium velocity hit a piece of oak wood. Google AI answered as follows, just as I knew it would:

When a medium-velocity FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) bullet strikes a piece of oak wood, it punches a deep, narrow hole through the dense grain while staying mostly intact.

Impact and Penetration

Deep entry: The bullet cuts cleanly into the wood instead of mushrooming or flattening out immediately.

Rapid deceleration: Oak is a hard, dense wood. It slows the bullet down much faster than soft pine or drywall.

Stopping power: If the oak board is thick (such as 4 to 6 inches), the bullet will likely lose all its energy and stop inside the wood. If the board is thin, the bullet will pass right through.


When I asked Google AI what would happen if an FMJ bullet traveling at low velocity hit a piece of oak wood, it once again answered just as I knew it would:

A low-velocity full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet will cleanly punch a round hole into oak wood and stop without breaking apart.

What Happens to the Bullet

Stays intact: The hard metal cover keeps the lead core from flattening.

No expansion: The bullet keeps its original shape because the slow speed is not enough to deform the metal.

Slows down fast: The heavy resistance of the wood quickly robs the bullet of its forward motion.


Keep in mind that FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier told the WC that the alleged murder weapon was a rather low-velocity rifle (3 H 414), while some experts, using a different velocity scale, say the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle is a medium-velocity weapon. No one, but no one, says the rifle is a high-velocity weapon.

Posner obviously knew nothing about FMJ bullet behavior when he formulated his tree-branch-collision theory. He erroneously assumed that his supposed FMJ bullet would not only produce two large fragments but would shed its copper jacketing.

The WC's alternative explanation for the Tague wounding, aside from being hopelessly and intentionally vague, is even worse than its headshot-fragment theory: "or it might have been a product of the fragmentation of the missed shot upon hitting some other object in the area" (WCR, p. 117).

This is a lame, useless explanation. The WC claimed to have no idea where the alleged lone gunman's miss landed, rendering its "hitting some other object in the area" theory useless from the outset. The WC refused to acknowledge that a bullet dug into the grass near the manhole cover in the vicinity of the triple underpass (even though the strike was observed and reported by Officer J. W. Foster, and even though a photo of the hole in the grass was published the next day in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram). The WC also refused to acknowledge that a bullet hit the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street (even though it dug a 4.0 x 0.5-inch scar into the sidewalk, and even though two witnesses saw the scar before it was crudely patched). Thus, it is not surprising that the WC did not even speculate about where the supposed single assassin's errant shot landed.

And, of course, the WC could only float its specious explanations by dismissing the fact that Tague insisted the second shot was the one that caused his wound. The WC clearly leaned toward a first-shot miss, not a second-shot miss, which is why it could not accept Tague's clear, reasonable testimony, even though Tague, like several other witnesses, specified that the first shot he heard sounded different than the others, and even though he specified he heard the third shot after he felt something sting his face (7 H 552-555).

Unless the supposed lone gunman was legally blind, if his alleged second shot missed, it would have landed in the limo's passenger compartment, or on the limo's trunk or hood, or on the right side of the limo. The same would have been true if the alleged single shooter's first shot missed. If the supposed sixth-floor "sharpshooter" somehow managed to miss the entire huge limousine with his first and closest shot, it would have landed on the street or sidewalk in the vicinity of the limo, well over 300 feet from the Tague curb scar and with at least five witnesses standing between the impact point and the Tague curb scar/Tague himself.

The fact that the lone-gunman theory simply cannot explain the Tague wounding is the reason that Specter and the FBI tried so hard to ignore it. It should be noted that Specter never asked the Commission's wound-ballistics experts about the WCR's bogus theory that a fragment from the head shot could have caused Tague's wounding. Those experts would have told him that such a fragment would have had to exit from the right side of the skull (whereas Tague was standing to the left of the limo), that it would have had to clear the limo's roll bar and windshield, and that it most certainly would not have had enough velocity to veer over the roll bar, then dive downward and leftward, and then travel over 200 feet and hit the curb hard enough to scar it or hit Tague's face hard enough to cut it.

58
While enhanced versions of the Z-film provide us with lots of clues, viewing a stock version of he film at normal speed does have value as well. If one focuses on JFK and JBC immediately after the emerge from behind the sign, one gets the sense that the reaction by both men to being shot is almost immediate. There is less than a half second between the time JBC emerges and he flips his right arm upward and then twists and dips to his right.
59
dang, it’s too bad Ozzie didn’t have a pair of those meta specs with the camera and all, wonder if someone could do a recreation of his last steps to the theatre with them on?

At the very least he could have donned a bodycam to record his historical act for posterity.
60
It has occurred to me that in various recent threads, MTG has suggested shots being fired from all around Dealey Plaza. It seems to me he has postulated as many as six shots. Even if he doesn't want to accept it was Oswald firing from the sniper's nest, we have several eyewitnesses who saw a shooter at that location, 3 spent shells at that location, and the testimony of the TSBD employees who were right below that location who heard three shots being fired from directly above them. MTG has cited the HSCA acoustic evidence of a shooter firing from the GK. They postulated a missed shot although I believe MTG thinks that was the headshot. Either way, that brings us to four shots. In the past few weeks, he has claimed there was a bullet hole through the windshield which suggests a shooter from in front of the limo as it traveled down Elm St. He has been a little vague as to just where they shooter could have fired from. I'm not certain but I think his belief is that shot entered JFK's throat. I'm not sure where he thinks that shot ended up.

MTG's premise in starting this thread is that Tague's injury could not have been caused by any of the three shots from the TSBD. When pressed, he suggested Tague was injured by a shot fired from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex building, which sailed over JFK's head, over the limo, all the way down Elm St. to strike the curb in front of Tague standing between Main and Commerce streets. While Tague would have been roughly in line with such a shot, I wonder if MTG has considered how wild that shot would have been. Even if that shooter was firing from a second floor window, he still would have been ailing at a downward angle at JFK. It strains credulity to believe that a shot from the Dal-Tex would have been so much above the intended target that it not only would have missed JFK's head, it would have missed Connally, Kellerman, the dashboard and the windshield so that it could travel down Elm St., cross Main St. and hit the curb in front of Tague.

At a minimum, MTG is postulating six shots. Never mind that there are no eyewitnesses to a shooter from any location other than the TSBD. There is no forensic evidence of shots from any location other than the TSBD, such as a discarded weapon, spent shells, or recovered bullets. There is no medical evidence of any wounds suffered by either JFK or JBC that were not caused by shots fired from above and behind them. Since he has claimed the Dal-Tex shooter wildly missed his target, that would rule out that location unless he wants to claim that shooter fired more than one shot, which brings us up to seven or more shots. I forget. How many shots did most of the people in Dealey Plaza remember hearing?
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