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51
I don't come here for humor. What entails your research to dispute his? I've yet to see you do it or show it in this thread. I don't know why I'm responding because it appears you're just arrogant enough to feel like it's benneath you to counter. How about countering instead of the personal attacks? We should just assume everyone on this site is familiar with your research on this subject?

Definition of Research. Research is a systematic and intentional process of investigation designed to discover new knowledge, validate existing theories, or solve specific problems. It relies on structured methodologies to collect, analyze, and interpret data, ultimately contributing to a broader or generalizable understanding of a topic
52
Richard, you're just no fun. If you insist on thinking logically, what are we going to do with you? Take a week off, binge-watch Three Stooges episodes on YouTube, and get back to us when you're ready to think outside the box of rationality.

What would be a logical explanation for Bentley not mentioning Hidell when he took the wallet from Oswald in order to identify him. What is a logical explanation for the lack of a chain of custody for that wallet and how can it be logically explained that an - until this day - unidentified police officer ended up with a wallet, which he gave to Gus Rose, that did contain the Hidell ID? How did that officer even know it was Oswald's wallet?
53
Well, sure. The whole "time thing" seems to me like a quest for certainty that just isn't possible.

So, if we can't rely on clocks and thus time stamps, how can LNs say with any kind of certainty that Tippit was shot at around 1:14:30?

Even more so, as there is evidence that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:15. This time is given for the time of D.O.A. and also confirmed by police officer Davenport who followed the ambulance.

Btw, Tippit's murder wasn't a federal crime, yet the F.B.I. pestered hospital employees for days about the time of D.O.A.. Why would the F.B.I. even be interested in that, when they could simply have accepted the time on the death certificate?
54
You keep proving my point. Where is your research that counters his? He went into detail on it but I've yet to see you or anyone refute it. I'm done asking for the counters because It's multiple times with the same takes. Several people in here are more interested in a mob mentality of attacking the person instead of the content.

Because I am a kindly and patient sort, I will humor you and MTG to the tune of one more post. I have investigated some 20 or so nuggets of conspiracy gospel. My batting average is 1.000. Not one - not one - has withstood scrutiny. Exposing each of these has been an absurd amount of work, totally out of proportion to what it was worth. If I were billing at my hourly rate when I was a lawyer, each of these would have been a $15K project. Moreover, the exercise was entirely futile. Exposing the factoid changed nothing. It went right being a nugget of conspiracy gospel. By the fifth factoid or so, I accepted that I was doing this for my own self-amusement and mental exercise.

What MTG offers is neither "research" nor "facts." It's a bunch of conspiracy factoids supported by fallacious appeals to dubious CT "authorities." My normal factoid-busting procedure would be to take one of his nuggets and examine it closely to see if it withstands scrutiny. BUT I'M NOT GONNA DO IT. Why? Because MTG has established to my satisfaction that he is 33rd-degree CT nutcase. He is not worth the amount of time and effort that it takes to expose ONE LITTLE FACTOID. If you and MTG want to pretend that this means those of us who decline to engage with him are "hiding" and "avoiding" his "facts," I really don't give a steaming bowl of bat guano. I'm frankly mystified that anyone wastes time engaging with him; it just gives a veneer of credibility to his crap.

The stuff he raises here has been masturbated over ad nauseam. Here is one of many threads from the Ed Forum where these topics are discussed: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30083-why-do-some-conspiracy-theorists-accept-the-x-rays-and-autopsy-photos-as-genuine/ As usual, Pat Speer - who knows 100X more about the medical evidence than I do - ends up being the nemesis of those who, like MTG, think the autopsy x-rays and photos are either altered or fake. MTG insists the brain photos are not JFK's head. If that sounds plausible to you, fine. It doesn't sound to me like a factoid worth busting even if I had the medical expertise to do so. The one point Pat makes is precisely what I made above: there is virtually no area of the medical evidence as to which there is a consensus, so how would one go about "refuting" MTG's supposed "facts" even if one wanted to attempt to do so?

MTG's contributions are just one-dimensional CT screeds. As stated, his reliance on body-alteration fanatics like Mantik, Horne and Hornberger - whose stuff strikes me as pulp science fiction, unworthy of being taken seriously - should tell you something. A genuine contribution would be to carefully collect what everyone who has considered the autopsy x-rays and photos has had to say about them and perhaps have a new group of qualified experts consider the issue and try to make sense of the differing opinions. As a former lawyer, I can tell you that real research is a hell of a lot of work and not what MTG does. I once wrote a completely inconsequential law review article that ended up being published in the obscure Idaho Law Review; I took two weeks off of work to finish the silly thing and just about worked myself into a breakdown. MTG wouldn't know research if it bit him in the butt.
55
A few follow-up points about the alleged shooting feat, zeroing the rifle, and Oswald's Marine Corps rifle scores:

-- Marine Corps rifle expert MSG Jamess Zahm explained to the WC why using the iron sights would have made the shooting feat harder:

Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the increased efficiency of a marksman in using a four-power scope as opposed to using only the iron sights?

Sergeant ZAHM. Well, with the iron sights you have more room for error in the fact that you have three variables. You have your targets, your front sight and your rear sight, and you have the possibility of an error in aligning the sights, and then you also have the possibility of an error in the sights on the targets, which we refer to as the sight picture. Looking through aperture or even the open buckhorn type sights, when you are concentrating on your sights, your targets tend to become blurred because of the close focus of your eye in aligning the sights. (11 H 307)


-- Not a single bullet was found in Oswald's possessions. In addition, no gun-cleaning equipment, no gun-cleaning oil, no spent cartridges, no nothing related to maintaining or using a rifle was found among his possessions.

-- The three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test failed to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat, even though two of them took 6.45 to 8.0 seconds to fire their two sets of three shots. Moreover, they fired their most inaccurate shots on their second and third shots, i.e., the shots fired at the two farthest targets, the same two shots that Oswald allegedly nailed in 5.6 seconds. And they were firing from only 30 feet up, took as much time as they wanted for their first shot, and were allowed to fire practice shots before the test began.

-- Here's what FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier told the WC about the problems they discovered when he and other FBI technicians tried to sight-in (zero) the rifle with the scope:

When we attempted to sight in this rifle at Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction-it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the elevation setting of the telescope.

And when we had sighted-in the rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we had fired five or six shots.

We found in this telescopic sight on this rifle that this ring was shifting in the telescope tube so that the gun could not be sighted-in merely by changing the screws. It was necessary to adjust it, and then fire several shots to stabilize the crosshair ring by causing this spring to press tightly against the screws (3 H 405-406)


-- As for the specious suggestion that the supposed lone gunman would not have needed to zero the rifle in the weeks leading up to the shooting, WC staffer Wesley Liebeler addressed this issue in an internal WC memo:

There is a great deal of testimony in the record that a telescopic sight is a sensitive proposition. You can't leave a rifle and scope laying around in a garage underfoot for almost 3 months, just having brought it back from New Orleans in the back of a station wagon, and expect to hit anything with it, unless you take the trouble to fire it and sight the scope in.

This would have been a problem that should have been dealt with in any event, and now that it turns out that there actually was a defect in the scope, it is perfectly clear that the question must be considered. The present draft leaves the Commission open to severe criticism. Furthermore, to the extent that it leaves testimony suggesting that the shots might not have been so easy out of the discussion, thereby giving only a part of the story, it is simply dishonest. (11 HSCA 230)


-- Regarding the fact that Oswald barely qualified in the second of three rifle qualification categories in the Marine Corps, it would be helpful to note just how relatively easy the Marine Corps rifle qualification standards were when compared to the alleged shooting, keeping in mind, too, that Oswald was using a superb semi-automatic rifle (the M1) when firing at Marine rifle ranges:

In Stage One-Slow Fire, the person had 12 minutes (yes, minutes) to fire 10 rounds.

In Stage Two-Slow Fire, the person had 6 minutes (yes, minutes)   to fire 5 rounds.

In Stage Five-Rapid Fire, the person had 50 seconds to fire 10 rounds.

In Stage Six-Rapid Fire, the person had 50 seconds to fire 10 rounds.

Some sources say 60 seconds for the two rapid-fire phases, but I recently found a source that says 50 seconds, so I'll err on the side of caution and go with 50 seconds. That still means Oswald had 5 seconds per shot in the "rapid fire" phases.
56
Another thread I don't even remember starting. So many crazies, so little time.

Note to sane readers: "Citations" in scholarly parlance means "number of times this piece has been cited in other scholarly journals." The journal in which Bagley's piece was published would love to say "Citations: 432." In fact, it says "Citations: 0." "Citations" in scholarly parlance does not mean "number of times works by the author of this piece have been mentioned somewhere." Jesus. If that were the defintion, Bagley's works would have 9,312 "citations" just in KGB Loony Bird's posts alone.
57
As usual, very good stuff, Ben.


Ben is typical of he kinds of experts MTG likes to cite.

It's a perfect example of the blind leading the blind.

If you guys really had figured this all out, you would be able to answer the key questions of who, what, where , wand when. The WC answered all four of these quesstions. The where and the when are the easy parts. You guys trip all over yourselves trying to explain the who and the how.
58
LOL! The "great work"? You mean his continued ducking and dodging and refusal to engage on any of the facts I've presented? He still has not responded to a single fact I've documented.

You don't present facts. You present opinions. Very amateurish opinions based on a minimal amount of evidence and FUBAR figuring.
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His silly line of "oh the experts have looked into all this and don't agree, and so there's nothing to see here" is naked evasion. Ditto for his humorous argument that I must be wrong because I point out that the conspiracy view of the JFK case is the majority view and because I frequently cite experts to support my arguments!

You cite cherry picked quotes taken out of context. Nowhere can you cite an expert in the field of forensic evidence who has had access to the evidence you shares your FUBAR conclusion that the autopsy photos are fraudulent. That one is all on you.

Your line of thinking demonstrates what I have said for decades. CTs don't try to explain the evidence. The invent excuses to explain away the evidence. They try to substitute their analysis of the evidence for that of recognized experts in the various technical fields. Then they get terribly frustrated when others don't accept their conclusions.
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To give just one example: He says he leans toward the EOP site, but he refuses to explain how he can still believe the autopsy brain photos are authentic when the FPP demonstrated beyond any rational doubt that the brain photos prove that no bullet could have entered at the EOP site. So either the EOP site did not exist or the brain photos are fraudulent. There's no third option.

There is a third option. Your opinions are silly.
59
You keep proving my point. Where is your research that counters his? He went into detail on it but I've yet to see you or anyone refute it. I'm done asking for the counters because It's multiple times with the same takes. Several people in here are more interested in a mob mentality of attacking the person instead of the content.

Look at the roster of characters to whom MTG refers you: Mantik, Horne, Hornberger. These are 33rd-degree, card-carrying, one-dimensional, believe-anything CT proselytizers. The late John Hunt, indefatigable document hound, was a purchasing manager at Jamestown Distributors, purveyors of building a maintenance products; his essay relies heavily on Mantik. I don't mean to demean any of these individuals, but fallacious appeals to fantastically biased "authorities" such as these are not what research looks like.

For an entirely CT-oriented but at least somewhat more balanced discussion, I kind of like Gary Aguilar's "How Five Investigations Into JFK's Medical/Autopsy Evidence Got It Wrong," https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_tabfig.htm. What he means by "got it wrong," of course, is that all five investigations reached conclusions CTers don't like. I have no problem acknowledging legitimate puzzles and conflicts in the evidence, but MTG's work is neither research nor balanced discussion.
60
Quote from Tosh Plumlees book: DEEP COVER, SHALLOW GRAVES ---

"The Municipal Building is also where Oswald requested that the operator place two calls to phone numbers in North Carolina the night before he was killed. Around a quarter to ten Alveeta A. Treon arrived for her shift at the telephone switchboard. Treon was there to relieve her co-worker, Louise Swinney, who had been given orders by their supervisor to assist two men in listening to a call that would come through their switchboard. Treon assumed the men were Secret Service. She suspected that Lee Harvey Oswald, the accused assassin who was being held there, would be making another call. He had already phoned his Russian wife, Marina, and an ACLU lawyer in New York. This call was treated differently. Oswald rang the switchboard at a quarter till 11, Dallas Time. Swinney took the call and scribbled Oswald’s information as the two self-proclaimed Secret Service men listened in. “I was dumbfounded at what happened next,” Treon later told a Senate investigator. “Swinney told [Oswald], ‘I’m sorry, the number doesn’t answer.’ Swinney then unplugged and disconnected Oswald without ever really trying to put the call through.
Afterward, Swinney tore the sheet from her notepad and threw it into the trash. When her shift ended, she left. Treon retrieved the wadded piece of paper from the trash and copied the information onto a standard long-distance telephone call slipp was a souvenir.  The slip Oswald had given Treon two phone numbers and a name associated with one of them – “John Hurt” and “Raleigh N.C.” A decade later independent researcher Michael Canfield secured a copy of the slip, while conducting research for his book Coup d’Etat in America. When Canfield called and spoke to John Hurt of Raleigh, NC, Hurt said he didn’t know Oswald, but also revealed, “I was in the counterintelligence corps in the Army during World War II.” In an interview with JFK researcher and university dean Walter Proctor, Victor Marchetti – the 14-year CIA veteran who had served as executive assistant to Deputy Director Richard Helms – said that in calling Hurt, Oswald was clearly following standard procedure for a CIA asset under duress. “[Oswald] was probably calling his cut-out. He was calling somebody who could put him in touch with his case officer,” Marchetti told Proctor. “He couldn’t go beyond that person. There’s no way he could. He just had to depend on this person to say, ‘OK, I’ll deliver the message.’ Now, if the cut-out has already been alerted to cut him off and ignore him, then …” Marchetti was absolutely correct. As an operative that’s exactly the same procedure I would have followed.
But Marchetti, Proctor, Canfield and others all seemed to have forgotten the second number Oswald was trying to reach that night. It belonged to CIA operative Edward Gibbons Moore II, who was the manager of the Nags Head Casino. The casino in the ‘50s and ‘60s was operating as a CIA cut-out base. All of us operatives who were trained at the School of Illusionary Warfare had that number and knew to call Moore if we drank too much and got arrested or had another kind of run-in with law enforcement. We’d call Ed Moore and he would arrange to have the problem taken care of.
Oswald was trying to enlist Moore’s help the night before he died, but the call was never placed. The two men posing as Secret Service agents made sure of that. The Nags Head casino was later used to house Cuban survivors of the Bay of Pigs. In the ‘70s when Moore was called to testify before the Church Committee and started to spill the beans about Nags Head and his activities, the government accused and found him guilty of trying sell documents to the Soviet Union. (I refer you to the May 5, 1977 article by Robert Meyers in the Washington Post - https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1977/05/06/moore-guilty-of-trying-to-sell-ciafiles/e7987987-a9f0-434f-b8ce-55601f215fa9/) It was their way of discrediting Moore.
"  Close quote ---
  ...

For those who don't know about Oswald's attempt to call John Hurt in North Carolina, I recommend watching Dr. Grover Proctor's two-hour presentation on the subject:





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