JFK Assassination Forum

OMG WOW!
After going through my collection of images I found a photo of the rear of Oswald's jacket and the similarity to the carpark photo is even more striking, at both ends across the back of Oswald's jacket we see a small elastic section where the fabric is gathered and allowed to stretch so as to provide a snug fit around the mid-section, this design is seen in both photos!!
To confirm the uniqueness of this find, I did a google image search across hundreds of jackets through many decades and couldn't find a single example that showed this unique pair of gathered elastic sections. So I went a bit more specific and searched "windbreaker jacket" and the best I could find was in the bottom photo which doesn't really gather in the same way.
Now I'm sure that eventually I could find one but it's clear that I've proven that Weidmann's scenario of Oswald's jacket matching some random jacket is basically extremely statistically unlikely. But don't trust me, do some research and see what you can find!





JohnM

After going through my collection of images I found a photo of the rear of Oswald's jacket and the similarity to the carpark photo is even more striking, at both ends across the back of Oswald's jacket we see a small elastic section where the fabric is gathered and allowed to stretch so as to provide a snug fit around the mid-section, this design is seen in both photos!!

Oh boy. Those elastic sections are in just about every jacket of that type. I have two windbreaker type jackets that have exactly the same elastic sections at the same place. No big deal. But what the photos do show (and Johnny simply ignores) is that the sleeves of the white jacket are far larger that the one's on Oswald's grey jacket. So much for similarity! You just see what you want to see.

To confirm the uniqueness of this find, I did a google image search across hundreds of jackets through many decades and couldn't find a single example that showed this unique pair of gathered elastic sections

Now why am I not surprised you didn't find any? HAHAHAHAHA

Now I'm sure that eventually I could find one but it's clear that I've proven that Weidmann's scenario of Oswald's jacket matching some random jacket is basically extremely statistically unlikely. But don't trust me, do some research and see what you can find!

Oh, I don't trust you for even a little bit. And you have proven exactly nothing except of course that you don't know how to google searches.

Btw, you do understand that you have cornered yourself massively by claiming that Oswald was wearing the light grey jacket to the TSBD on Friday morning, right?
Because, now you are going to have to explain how that same light grey jacket ended up in the rooming house on Friday midday for Oswald to zip it up in front of Roberts.
And if you can't explain that, your entire "jacket under the car" BS is exactly that.... BS

I rather suspect it was Texas Lore that "The Gov. was still holding onto to his Stetson hat." A sign of defiance and strength, in the face of dire adversity.

I suspect that you're full of smoke, bang, and beans in the bushes.

This is the whole point. Eye and ear witnesses are not a reliable way to establish facts. We KNOW that witnesses often get important details wrong. They don't get everything wrong and they can be useful in the gathering of information but it is foolish to accept their statements as factual without corroboration. I am always suspect of any statement that starts out "So-and-so said that..." because without corroboration there is no way to tell for sure if so-and-so is right. In a situation where a witness tells us something that contradicts the forensic evidence, I'm going with the forensic evidence every time.

I've never said we should write of witness statements. I'm saying we need to determine if what a witness tells us can be corroborated or refuted by other evidence. In this case both Frazier and Randle are refuted by the forensic evidence because the bag was found and measured to be 38 inches long, plenty long enough to hole the 34.8 inch stock. Are we supposed to believe that Oswald brought two bags into the TSBD, the one Frazier and Randle saw and the other one next to the sniper's nest? If you choose to believe that, then we still have the means for Oswald to have smuggled his rifle into the TSBD. I find it far more likely that the two bags were one and the same but if you think it is more likely that Oswald brought two different bags into the TSBD at two different times then that's an argument you need to make.

He SAID Oswald carried it under his armpit. That doesn't establish that Oswald carried it under his armpit. I will never understand why people choose to put absolute faith in an eyewitness statement that isn't corroborated by physical evidence and in this case is refuted by it.

It puts no such limit on the objects in the bag unless you can prove Frazier's and Randle's memories and estimates are accurate. Do you have any such proof.
If one witness can be wrong about something then two people can be wrong. In the case of the earwitnesses in Dealey Plaza, we have two groups which gave mutually exclusive descriptions of where the shots originated from. One group or the other had to be wrong so we have an instance in which a whole lot of people got something very important very wrong. 
Your argument presumes to know at what level Oswald's hand was at when he was holding the bag. Do you have such knowledge? It would make a big deal of difference whether his hand was at waist height, chest height, or somewhere in between.
Why would you second guess Oswald's choice when what he did worked?
Tell us why it isn't possible.

I've never said we should write of witness statements. I'm saying we need to determine if what a witness tells us can be corroborated or refuted by other evidence. In this case both Frazier and Randle are refuted by the forensic evidence because the bag was found and measured to be 38 inches long, plenty long enough to hole the 34.8 inch stock.

This is just about the most stupid statement I've seen you make so far. You have no evidence whatsoever that the bag found on the 6th floor ever left the TSBD, ever held a broken down rifle (an FBI export could find no markings in the bag that would be expected to be there if a broken down rifle had been in it) or that Oswald carried that bag on Friday morning. All you have are self-serving assumptions you call "forensic evidence". You do understand that with enough assumptions you can make anybody look guilty of anything, right.

So why don't you stop assuming and get back to us when you have some actual proof that the bag found on the 6th floor was indeed the bag Oswald was carrying (between the cup of his hand and his armpit) on Friday morning. This LN crap is getting so tiresome!

Randle corroborates Frazier when it comes to the maximum size of the bag. Accept it and get over it!

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a lithe sort of light-gray-looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?
Mrs.V DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mrs. MARY BROCK, 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, she was at the Ballew Texaco Service Station located in the 600 block of Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas. She advised that at approximately 1:30 PM a white male described as approximately 30 years of age; 5 feet, 10 inches; light—colored complexion, wearing light clothing, came past her walking at a fast pace, wearing a light—colored jacket and with his hands in his pockets.

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.
Mr. BELIN - Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?
Mr. BENAVIDES - It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!



Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha!



BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

JohnM

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Really? So if somebody wearing a white jacket is standing in the shade, the jacket is still shown to be white. Is that what you are saying? HAHAHAHAHAHA

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!

So, you are just looking at a couple of photographs (you didn't actually examine both jackets!) and then simply conclude the jackets in the photos are identical, regardless of the fact of one jacket the back and very long sleeves is shown and the other shows the front with not so long sleeves.

You are so full of it!

Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha

You frequently say a great many crazy and stupid things, but this one goes into the top ten. You find 100 men's jackets and none comes close to Oswald's jacket (which by itself is a nutty observation to make) and then you rather idiotically claim that I ever said that Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket. I've never said anything of the kind. I have no way of knowing of both the jackets in the photos are similar or not. All I can say is that both jackets look to be of the Windbreaker type. But that's it. You really need to stop visiting cuckoo land. It's not good for you!

But here's a question for you; if the jackets were swapped and the white one disappeared, what makes you think that they needed to be similar in the first place. The only three people who we know actually saw the white jacket were Westbrook and two unnamed and unidentified patrol officers who likely never saw the jacket again. As for Westbrook, that guy was the personnel officer, but he was all over the Tippit scenes. What in the world was he doing there?

BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Hilariously stupid. Just how pathetic can you be? First of all, they found Oswald's dark grey jacket at the TSBD, so that's the one he must have been wearing on Friday morning.
Secondly, even if he had been wearing the light grey jacket that morning, then how in the world did that get to Oak Cliff for Oswald to pick it up and put on? Oswald left the TSBD wearing no jacket, right? Roberts said he entered the rooming house wearing no jacket, right? So, come on, genius, tell is how did the light grey jacket get to the rooming house if Oswald had worn it to the TSBD on Friday morning?