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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot

« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 08:50:24 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mason on July 27, 2026, 09:00:03 PM

She doesn't omit the timing of the second and third shots. She says: "There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots..."

By mentioning a pause after the first of a few seconds and then two shots but not mentioning a similar pause between them, she provided a description that is consistent with her DMN story although with less specific detail. Also, those words were written by the FBI. The DMN story and her 1988 THWKK clip were all her words.

Because she was always - and adamantly - consistent that the second and third shots were right on top of each other, my conspiratorial suggestion was that she had probably said the same thing to the FBI and that it was the FBI that had "conveniently" omitted it.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Credibility of the Zapruder film. CIA employee Dino Brugioni's account.

« Last post by James Slater on Yesterday at 08:50:04 PM »

Quote from: Royell Storing on Yesterday at 08:37:09 PM

I don't support the SBT, but Specter did graduate from Yale Law School in 1956. Give the man his due.

His role was assistant council for the panel but he took over the whole god damn show.
He's not a weapons expert or forensic pathologist who would be qualified to put forward a theory. The fact of the matter is Kellerman told them there was a flurry of shots similar to a sonic boom all coming at once. Jean Hill told them there were 4 to 6 shots and the last 4 all came together, countless other testimony telling them the shots came in together yet they allowed Specter to push this nonsense we've had to chew on for over 60 years.
The Connally's who were in the limo for Gods sake pushed aside and made fools out of so this idiot can prevail. i've seen the phone call between Hoover and LBJ before the warren commission got started. Three shots and one gunman and that was that, they were never going to allow anything else.
E Howard Hunt said it all in his confession about LBJ.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Credibility of the Zapruder film. CIA employee Dino Brugioni's account.

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:48:08 PM »

Read the Zavada report.
It's tedious but by the end of it all thoughts of alteration of the Z-film will be long gone.
It is ridiculously comprehensive.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Why do JFK assassination forums draw so many nut cases?

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:45:08 PM »

Quote from: Martin Weidmann on Yesterday at 07:51:31 AM

Said the biggest nut case of them all!

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The James Files and Malcolm Summers connection.

« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 08:44:27 PM »

Those would be some S-L-O-W escaping assassins. Even in his FBI statement, Summers said he hung around 15-20 minutes. In his Sixth Floor Museum interview, he said he tried to go up to the railroad yard, was turned away by Mystery Guy, went to the Postal Annex through the back entrance, discussed what he had seen with the workers (whom he knew as owner of Summers Mailing Company), called his wife and told her to turn on the TV, left the Postal Annex after 20-30 minutes, got into his truck that was parked on the Commerce extension behind the Annex, saw three Spanish-looking guys get into a car parked on Houston in front of the Annex (which doesn't mesh with what Files says), and arrived at the intersection with Houston just as they drove away ahead of him at a fast clip, whereupon he turned right onto Houston behind them and headed home to Oak Cliff. Again, pretty S-L-O-W escaping assassins, it seems to me, and I'm not sure why you'd bother driving away at a high rate of speed if you'd already hung around 30+ minutes.

https://www.c-span.org/program/public-affairs-event/kennedy-assassination-malcolm-summers/210939

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:40:19 PM »

Quote from: John Corbett on July 26, 2026, 05:24:54 PM

I wonder if Andrew Mason will continue citing Mary Woodward to prop up his claim that JFK was hit by the first shot since she clearly says in this interview that the first shot didn't hit anybody. Go to the 11:10 mark to hear her describe the shooting.

Woodward's description of what happened actually confirms JFK was hit by the first shot. Just because she wasn't aware he was hit doesn't mean he wasn't hit.
She describes 3 clearly audible shots with a noticeable pause between the first and second shot. Most notably she describes how close the second two shots were together, the third being fired before the reverberation of the second shot had faded.
Shot - pause - two shots really close together. A pattern described by many witnesses.
She is also clear that the headshot was one of the two shots close together.

So, let's use our brains.
We've all see the Z-film.
Now, think about the pause between the first and second shot (there is no pause between the second and third).

Where does this pause between the shots happen in the Z-film?

There is only one possible answer - it is the pause between JFK reacting to being shot around z225 and the headshot at z313.
It is a pause of around 5 seconds.
Woodward cannot be describing JFK's reaction to being shot around z225 and the headshot as the second and third shot because there is no pause between the second and third shot!!
She must be describing the first shot passing through JFK at z222/z223, a 5 second pause, and then the two shots extremely close together, one of which was the headshot.
Over 40 witnesses describe JFK reacting to the first shot as we see in the Z-film but hardly any of them actually realised he'd been shot. Many thought he was horsing around.
Woodward was just another witness who didn't realise he'd been hit with the first shot but her detailed observations confirm this was the case.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Credibility of the Zapruder film. CIA employee Dino Brugioni's account.

« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 08:37:09 PM »

Quote from: James Slater on Yesterday at 08:26:46 PM

This place is laughable. Nell and John Connally are not credible witnesses because both their statements to the Warren commission disagreed with Specter's single bullet theory. They both stated JBC was shot two seconds after Kennedy was shot in the neck area. The forums answer: Not credible witnesses, lunatics.
Brugoni was a CIA operative who was a trained expert in image and film analysis, gave his entire working life to the CIA and had an impeccable reputation. Brugoni stated the Zapruder film we see today is not the one he saw on 24th Novemeber 1963. The forums answer: Not a credible witness, lunatic.
Meanwhile back in Dealey Plaza Howard Brennan saw Oswald through a brick wall, described his height, weight, how good looking he was and his build, passed into onto Dallas Police and that exact description was used to identify Oswald in the cinema. The forums answer: What a guy, get that man a beer.
This forum shouldn't be called the JFK assassination forum it should be called the JFK official narrative assassination forum.
Arlen Specter, a congressman. not a lawyer, not a weapons expert, not a forensic pathologist, not an investigator, not anything but a congressman. He comes up with a theory that a bullet can do all kinds of weird things even though the Connally's told him it didn't happen that way and you believed it hook line and sinker.
Very good - crack on.

I don't support the SBT, but Specter did graduate from Yale Law School in 1956. Give the man his due.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: On the Trail of Delusion Episode 39 with Bill Brown on location in Oak Cliff

« Last post by Martin Weidmann on Yesterday at 08:33:57 PM »

Quote from: Bill Brown on July 27, 2026, 10:06:34 PM

Who's saying your dumb ass has to wait?

You did:

Quote from: Bill Brown on Yesterday at 05:57:55 PM

It's a process. It's taking time. Once everything is finished, it'll get posted. Could be another month; could be another year. Hold your breath, please.

I don't think holding my breath is an option. I'll be long dead before you produce the evidence to show the Ripley's "affidavits" are authentic.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:18:30 PM »

Shelley on the first floor:

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

What evidence exists supporting her constant insistence that she left the window she was looking out of within seconds of the shots?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.

Below is a photo taken by Tom Dillard. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".

When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. It appears Vicki had left her position by the window by the time this pic was taken.

The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):

"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."

Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. The limo has barely got out of the Triple Underpass

The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot. This decision was made before the limo even reached the Underpass.

"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."

How long would it take a young women running full tilt in high heels to get down 3 flights of stairs - 30 seconds? 40 seconds?
Let's say her estimate of reaching the first floor one minute after the shooting is conservative, the question remains, what were Lovelady and Shelley doing there?
It must be noted, this mention of Lovelady and Shelley did not first come about during Adams' WC testimony:

"When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository..."
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive)[Speer]

What is the importance of Shelley and Lovelady lying about their movements after the assassination?
What compelled them to race towards the back of the first floor?

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 08:07:51 PM »

Quote from: Lance Payette on July 24, 2026, 02:46:28 AM

Just for the sake of argument, let's say I have vastly more intelligence than you and see where that goes ...

Hmmm...this superior intelligence you often like to boast about...I've never seen it or anything even remotely like it.
In nearly every interaction we have I make an obvious point and you fall to pieces, often running away.
Sometimes even quitting the forum.
I see you've started with the 'aliens' thing already. I imagine you think this is really clever or something...

Quote

Sure, I can agree to anything in the context of a thought experiment. If Shelley and Lovelady were on the TSBD steps when the shooting occurred and at the freight elevators seconds later, logic would dictate that they ~~were teleported by aliens~~ - no, strike that, that they walked back there through the front entrance.

The value of a thought experiment hinges to a large extent on its plausibility. Otherwise, of what use is it? This was the problem with your LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley-Dougherty thought experiment. When you acknowledged that it couldn't account for Oswald, I think most folks sensed the thought air going out of your thought balloon. Poof.

I will admit I haven't read The Girl On the Stairs. However, is it correct that Vicki herself in that book disavows saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady and claiming that the relevant portion of her WC testimony doesn't even sound like her, as Roger Odisio states in this thread at the Ed Forum? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30023-vickie-adams-interview/. If that weren't sufficient, the thread opens by linking to a 1966 interview in which Vicki apparently claimed that she did see Shelley! Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

The plausibiity of your thought experiment also hinges on (1) Styles, who was there, either being flat wrong or lying for no apparent reason, and (2) the photo that clearly shows Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension not being Shelley and Lovelady, with fellow gung-ho CTer Bart Kamp having faked said photo for no apparent reason. All of this to prop up some elaborate conspiracy scenario that apparently requires two TSBD clucks like Shelley and Lovelady as well as the WC staff to be at least after-the-fact participants.

Pretty thin thought experiment gruel, it seems to me. Occam and I continue to prefer our version whereby Vicki actually does see Shelley and Lovelady a wee bit later than she recalled, which has the beauty of still allowing CTers to argue that the two cuties were teleported from the fourth floor by aliens and should have heard or encountered Oswald if he'd been coming down the stairs.

Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

There's so many ways to make a fool of you but I can't let the audacity of you, of all people, bringing up 'credibility'.
Let's have a quick look at the credibility of Lovelady regarding his movements after the shooting:
In his affidavit, taken hours after the shooting, he doesn't leave the steps and re-enters the building with Shelley. Is that the truth?
In his FBI statements, he states that he and Shelley ran to where the limo had sped off and hung around there for 5 minutes. Is that the truth?
In his FBI statement, Shelley stated he and Lovelady escorted police officers along the extension and stayed in the railroad yards for 10 minutes. True?
In his WC testimony, Lovelady waited on the steps for at least 3 minutes before heading along the extension. Is that true?
In his HSCA interview he stated that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 - 20 minutes. Is that the truth?
How 'credible' is convicted gun-runner Lovelady? Which of his lies do you choose to opt for?
Incredibly, the answer to that question is that you don't accept any of his lies.
Instead, you made up your own lie in order to account for how Lovelady could have an interaction with Gloria and be seen walking along the extension seconds after the shooting.
The lie you made up was that, immediately after the shooting, Lovelady ran across to the little, old island where he met Gloria before heading along the extension.
How intelligent is that?
Literally make up a scenario that isn't covered in any of the pack of lies Lovelady told about his movements after the shooting. Maybe it's your own credibility that should be examined.

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