JFK Assassination Forum

Per Tina Towner in her book:

I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.

If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.

   2 seconds is a very long time. With respect to timing, how does the End of the Towner Film match up with the Robert Croft photo?

SMG--

You ask fair questions. It would take a book to answer your questions, but I will throw up some observations. 


1. KGB and G2 records have not been examined, except as allowed by Russian and Cubans authorities. Both agencies regard the JFKA as a propaganda event, and both answer to autocratic governments. Truth be told, we see a black box when we look at the KGB and G2. We don't know what we don't know.

2. The Katzenbach memo.

3. LBJ's concerns, legitimate or otherwise, about WWIII being triggered should LHO be linked to KGB or G2.

4. Specter fashioned the SBT not to answer to wound patterns on JFK and Gov. JBC, but as the only even plausible  explanation, if a single shooter was a premise. Specter worked backward, assuming a single shooter. He said so.

5. You correctly note the WC had to rely on FBI and CIA investigators. But my understanding is Hoover decided LHO had acted alone, and the CIA may have been trying to cover up how riddled it was with KGB'ers (Victor Marchetti's suspicion). Bruce Solie did not want an investigation into the CIA.

6. The WC may not have decided to totally hand over investigations to the FBI and CIA, but it happened by default. Of course, at the time, it made sense. After all, the FBI was investigative agency, and the WC mostly lawyers. But the FBI-investigative agency had roughly settled on LHO as LN.

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I agree the HSCA pursued an roughly independent investigation (albeit leads were growing cold), though it should be noted Robert Blakey, a Mob-hunter and author of the RICO act, was big on the US Mafia having perped the JFKA, and even co-authored a book to that effect. I can't say I've read every document produced by the HSCA, but they did not seem to hunting LHO's foreign connections---although the HSCA did conclude there had been a JFKA conspiracy.

Worth noting: The HSCA did not produce anything to suggest CIA'ers were involved in the JFKA. If I recollect correctly, they even absolved US agencies of involvement.

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I think Gus Russo's work is interesting. I stand by my sentiments that the CIA has been looked by the JFKA research community in minute detail, but the community still offers only speculation as to CIA'er involvement in the JFKA. Bill Harvey, etc. And? What? Then they fashion the MIC-globalist capitalists wanted perma-war, blah blah, blah argument.

Alpha 66 is an interesting angle--I think overlooked as the JFKA research community wants a huge conspiracy, not a small one.

Russo's work more interesting, in part as far less is known about the KGB and G2. LHO appears to have been having smarmy connections to G2'ers, including in Mexico City (the ambassador there thought there was more to the LHO-G2 story than got out).

Well, that is what I think.

​Frank Bartes was present during the LHO-Bringuier court case in Aug 1963. However when the FBI questioned Bartes in sept 1963 if he knew of LHO, Bartes told the FBI he never heard of LHO. This was particulary curious as Bartes was an FBI informant.

In the below episodeof The Lone Gunman Podcast at 56 to 57 minutes in, Larry Hancock and David Boylan point out that by around 1963 a lot of people, like Bartes, who were usualy only too happy to inform to the FBI of pro-Castro trouble makers like Oswald, all of a sudden now refused to inform about LHO.

https://www.youtube.com/live/kyo6mkjenfc?t=3377s

Hancock and Boylan discuss the Tilton Sept 1963 memo which was a CIA memo to the FBI talking about plans to embarrass the FPCC in foreign countries. The impression I took from Hancock and Boylan was that the CIA were possibly planning in Sept 1963 to use Oswalds activities in New Orleans as part of a black propaganda effort in latin American countries. And that perhaps the CIA told people like Bartes in Sept 1963 to stay back from Oswald as a result so that the CIA could use Oswald as part of this propaganda effort in latin American countries. And that this might be why Bartes, despite being an FBI informant and being present during LHOs court appearance, told the FBI in Sept that he never heard of Oswald.

I am doubtful the CIA would have told Bartes to stand back from Oswald in this regard. I dont see how Bartes informing the FBI about LHO could have affected the CIAs propaganda plan as per the Tilton memo.

I think another possibility is that after the Aug 1963 court appearance, both the DRE and INCA were planning their own private propaganda effort against LHO. The DRE were going to write a congressional letter while INCA were going to get a tape made of LHOs media appearance (Arnesto Rodriguez was the one who made the tape as Boylan points out at 57 minutes on the above video). All of these were present at LHOs court appearance so they all knew what each other was doing.

Considering that they were planning their own private propaganda effort against LHO, this may have led to Bartes denying to the FBI the following month that he knew LHO. Bartes may have been concerned that if he gave the FBI any information about LHO that this might in some way scupper their (the DREs and INCAs) planned propaganada operation against LHO. It should also be noted that Orest Pena was connected with this crowd. Pena believed LHO to be an FBI informant and didn't like DeBrueys hanging around with a communist like LHO. We know that Pena at least made Bringuier aware of the LHO-DeBrueys connection as Bringuier stated in a Nov 27th 1963 FBI statment (that Pena had seen LHO at the Pedro restaurant - LINK: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=47745#relPageId=38, which is where Pena alledged LHO and DeBrueys used hang out at). If Pena told Bringuer of how LHO used hang out at the Pedro restaurant, it would be a natural follow on that Pena would have told Bringuier who LHO was in the company of at that restaurant, which Pena later said was LHO. Therefore if Bringuier was aware of this LHO-DeBrueys connection, and knew about this in Aug/Sept 1963, then this information would naturally flow to all the people who accompanied Bringuer to the court appearance including Bartes.

Therefore, the DRE and INCA may have come to see the communist LHO and the FBI as working together in some fashion in the summer of 1963, and for this reason people like Bartes in Sept 1963 might have refused to give any info on LHO to the FBI in case this would scupper the DRE and INCAs planned propaganda operation against LHO (ie the FBI might not have been in favor of such a propaganda effort against one of their informants - LHO).

Although I can see that JFK and Jackie and SS agent Hickey are reacting in sync beginning at Z140, I’m totally unconvinced that it was due to a loud shot from the TSBD at Z124.

Otherwise, then surely Rosemary Willis would be slowing down beginning at Z124  instead of at z190.

And surely at Z140 , JC would have turned his head left also in sync with JFK Jackie , since he said he heard the 1st shot.

So the Z124 1st shot idea is totally implausible and is also not supported by vast majority of ear witnesses that heard 3 shots in about 6 seconds ( 4 secs in the case of Harold Norman) and that the last 2 shots were back to back. That cannot be the case if the 2nd shot is Z223 and the 3rd shot is Z313 because that is  a 4.8 sec span of time which no normal person would have perceived as “back to back” or 0.5 sec apart as Lee Bowers demonstrated to Mark Lane.

Andrew Masons proposed Z190 1st shot from TSBD does not work either if JC was hit by a bullet .at Z223 -z225. This appears to be the case as at Z223-Z227 JFK and JC are moving in sync and the very abrupt forward movement  of JC’s upper torso and his right shoulder rotating is indicative that he had been hit by a bullet. 

Andrew proposes that the JC reaction at Z225 is only  due  to hearing a shot 2 secs back at Z190. The abrupt movement of JC is supposedly just him attempting to turn his torso around leftwards to look back at JFK after earlier having failed to see JFK when he turned his head right.

The Z190 shot is tricky proposition to  understand so I’m not entirely ruling it out because it has never really been determined as a fact , which way JC had his legs positioned at Z223.

My opinion about the position of JCs legs is that both left and right legs were together and turned about 45 degrees towards the right door.  I base this opinion on 3 reasons:

1. When JC is seen again at Z223 , his upper shoulders and upper torso and head appear to be turned towards his right at about 45 degrees.

2. The jump seat that JC is sitting on is very close to the front seat that SS agent Kellerman is seated on. So JC probably had to sit in the seat at an angle so that his legs would not be pushing onto the back of SS agent Kellermans front seat. Since JC was going to be facing the Dealey plaza crowd located on the right  side of the JFK limo, then JC most likely had his body and both his legs turned towards the right door of the JFK limo. This would be a much more comfortable position.

3. Based on the trajectory of the SBT , and that JC was gripping  his hat upside down in his right hand when his hand moves abruptly upward in   Z223-Z230 range , the well of that upside down hat would have had to be on the outside of his left leg if both his legs were turned about 35-45 degrees right towards the door.

Now I know Andrew has a diagram/ drawing which positions JCs legs spread apart and with JC holding his hat  upside down between his legs. This position would not work with the SBT trajectory line as the bullet would have had to go thru JCs hat before it impacted his inner left thigh.

It’s easy just to avoid these problems by claiming that the SBT is false and devising a different sequence of shots as Andrew does by proposing the 2nd shot was at  Z275-280 ish. That however , is  also improbable due to the Altgens 6 photo at Z255 which establishes the SS agents have reacted to a shot from behind the JFK limo well before Z275-80. It is unlikely the SS agents at Z255 were reacting to a Z190 shot because their heads would have been turned by Z207 responding as Rosemary Willis has at Z200.

Based on these problems  and mainly with the lack of reactions by SS agents from Z135-Z207 to look back at TSBD( Hickey although leaning does NOT look back) a 1st shot from TSBD at Z223 seems to me more probable than any 1st shot prior to Z223, except for the possibility of some suppressed shot by a 2nd shooter.

I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread.  But the point is the same.  The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd.  They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).

Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner).  Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred.  Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."   

How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?

Per Tina Towner in her book:

I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.

If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.