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51
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK's raised left arm identified at Bethesda
« Last post by Darragh McConville on Yesterday at 09:58:41 PM »
For completeness, sharing Richard Lipsey's interview with the HSCA here: https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm


Specifically about the "raised arm":

Q: Could you describe for us the nature of the damage to the front of the neck?

 

LIPSEY: No. I really couldn't. Because like I say, when we got it out, there was -- blood was all over the body. It was almost caked on. I remember they took a scrub brush and a pail. One of his arms, and if I've not mistaken, it was his left arm. You know, the way, I guess, after he died, finished the autopsy by that time and, rigor mortis had set in and one of his arms was slightly higher. Well, the guy's laying down and one of them was up a little bit. So when they started the autopsy I can remember, one of the doctors, when he was starting to clean the body up, got up on the table and physically got up on the table and put his knee down on his arm to hold it down -- to get it out of his way -- so he could scrub the rest of the body. So to say, to describe the hole to you, no. Because it was so messy and so much blood that I didn't, I never got close enough to get down and look at the wound itself.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Lee Harvey Oswald's and the KGB's mind-blowing synchronicity (pardon the pun)
« Last post by Darragh McConville on Yesterday at 09:56:23 PM »
I'm just sharing Richard Lipsey's witness statement to the HSCA for visibility - https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm

The specific section, where he is quite specific, reads:

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Q: Could you describe for us the nature of the damage to the front of the neck?

 
LIPSEY: No. I really couldn't. Because like I say, when we got it out, there was -- blood was all over the body. It was almost caked on. I remember they took a scrub brush and a pail. One of his arms, and if I've not mistaken, it was his left arm. You know, the way, I guess, after he died, finished the autopsy by that time and, rigor mortis had set in and one of his arms was slightly higher. Well, the guy's laying down and one of them was up a little bit. So when they started the autopsy I can remember, one of the doctors, when he was starting to clean the body up, got up on the table and physically got up on the table and put his knee down on his arm to hold it down -- to get it out of his way -- so he could scrub the rest of the body. So to say, to describe the hole to you, no. Because it was so messy and so much blood that I didn't, I never got close enough to get down and look at the wound itself.

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53
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Hypothetical question
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:45:54 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 08:38:10 PM
As I understand  it , Andrew’s Z190 shot hitting JC in his left thigh without going thru his torso is because the angle of the limo (and hence JFKs back)  on the road at Z190 is more to the left of the TSBD shooter than at Z224.

But even with that, JC has to have his left leg turned to his left while he keeps his upper body and shoulders turned at least 45 rightward such that the bullet goes past his left shoulder.

Theoretically , maybe this is possible , however until some serious 3D computer modeling is done like Myers did, it remains doubtful. 

My major question about a Z190 shot hitting JC in left inner thigh is if the bullet buried deeply into his thigh or not?

If it did then any flakes of metal removed from JCs thigh must be CE 399 because supposedly that bullet hit JC in the wrist and the metal flakes left in his wrist were from CE 399.

Thus Z190 cannot be CE 399 since Z190 does not hit JCs right hand.

If the Z190 bullet does not remain in JCs thigh, then how much was it slowed down from tangentially grazing it? It’s hitting at 1500 ft/sec after being slowed by JFK, so depending how much thigh muscle slows it down, it’s still probably traveling at least 900 ft/ sec after that.

And that Z190 bullet coming in at that downward angle it’s got no place to go after striking JCs inner thigh except THRU the front seat probably on the middle of the seat. This might be theoretically possible but there does not appear to be (in the limo photos)  a hole in the seat.

It’s too bad they did not preserve the limo for future analysis.

The angle of the limo didn't change that much from Z190 to Z220. That's less than 2 seconds and the car had just come out of a very sharp turn that would have forced it to slow down. While the change in angle would have turned JBC's thigh farther left in relation to JFK, it also would have moved his torso farther left making it even less likely the bullet exiting JFK's throat would have gone to the left of JBC's torso. 

Another problem with a Z190 shot is Oswald would have had to fire through the tree. Why would he do that when waiting just over one second would give him a clear shot. Now only would his view of his target have been obscured, firing through the trees raised the possibility of the shot being deflected by a branch. Even a minor deflection could cause a miss.

In short, there isn't much about Andrew's theory that makes much sense to anyone but Andrew.
54
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: LBJ's Phone Call with Hoover 11/24
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:38:22 PM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 07:51:17 PM
Anyone with a TV set or newspaper seemingly would have known more by the morning of November 23 than LBJ or Jedgar apparently did, which is rather puzzling and somewhat frightening. Having now read all of Robert Caro's voluminous books on LBJ, I would have expected him to be on top of all the details and not having to rely on old Jedgar. Maybe LBJ was just playing dumb - let's take that ball and run with it, CTers. In fact, maybe both were playing dumb - the whole conversation was staged!

Apparently the underlings didn't tell the boss everything they knew. Whoever heard of someone doing that? I'll confess to having done that on occasion with the bosses I had while working.
55
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Video: Hoffman Hill & Oliver
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:36:22 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:30:31 PM
So where is the Babushka  lady film? She was holding a camera. It was capturing the close up perspective view better than any other camera person. Coincidence?

This is an example of trying to make a point by raising a question. Questions are no evidence. You need answers.
56
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Video: Hoffman Hill & Oliver
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 09:35:13 PM »
Your intrepid Factoid-Buster is now hot on the trail (or perhaps that should be tail) of the Lamb Chop Factoid. Here is another thread from the Ed Forum, this time in 2010 and once again started by Jack White (EEK!): https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15477-why-was-this-man-carrying-a-toy-dog/.

It seems pretty clear there was no Lamb Chop in the limousine, unless Jackie used to call Greer "Lamb Chop" in their more informal moments. Probably I'll just let this factoid die a peaceful death.

Just a thought, Royell: Maybe that's why Officer Haygood had his glove off - to accomodate Lamb Chop if necessary for a clean getaway? "Do not leave the scene without Lamb Chop, Officer Haygood Imposter."

Oh, wait, here is a 10-second YouTube video clearly showing Jackie holding Lamb Chop at Love Field. Except I don't see any Lamb Chop unless this was her pet name (pet name - get it?) for JFK, as in "Why are you porking that 17-year-old intern, Lamb Chop?"

57
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Released Videos From The Pentagon's First Batch Of UFO Files
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:33:51 PM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 09:08:38 PM
As Jack knows, I found Phantom Shot be pretty compelling and persuasive. It eliminates a number of problems. It's curious that most LNers cling so tenaciously to the three-shot scenario while having such incredibly diverse notions as to when the first shot was fired and why it missed. Just intuitively, two shots that nailed JFK squarely in the back and head and one that missed all of downtown Dallas seems problematical.

It's hardly surprising that LNs have diverse opinions on when the first shot was fired since the Z-film gives us no definitive clues. A case can be made for shots at various points prior to JBC turning in reaction to hearing the first shot. It comes down to how one chooses to weigh those clues.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Video: Hoffman Hill & Oliver
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:30:31 PM »
So where is the Babushka  lady film? She was holding a camera. It was capturing the close up perspective view better than any other camera person. Coincidence?
59
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:16:54 PM »
Might have been Luke Mooney that Mrs Mooneyham saw and if so it is another similar name coincidence  that seems like it was predestined to happen

Like Mannlicher Carcano being the name of a rifle that was used to hit a man in a car on the side of his head.
60
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Released Videos From The Pentagon's First Batch Of UFO Files
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 09:08:38 PM »
Quote from: Jack Nessan on Yesterday at 06:02:04 PM
But yet you can embrace the idea that there was shot at Z152 with zero evidence there ever was one. An early missed shot is nothing but a fantasy. If that is how you feel about UFO sightings then I understand.

As Jack knows, I found Phantom Shot be pretty compelling and persuasive. It eliminates a number of problems. It's curious that most LNers cling so tenaciously to the three-shot scenario while having such incredibly diverse notions as to when the first shot was fired and why it missed. Just intuitively, two shots that nailed JFK squarely in the back and head and one that missed all of downtown Dallas seems problematical.
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