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51

Andrew, I have to disagree with you regarding Gov. Connally's being wounded after frame 255.

 In the Zapruder film, at frame 235, Connally is screaming "Oh no, no, no". after being struck.  His mouth is in speaking motion from that time on in the film until we lose sight of him following the fatal shot.  He stated in his WC testimony:
 
 " I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap ".

 The bullet has already passed through his back, chest, wrist and into his leg.
Hello Steve. I agree that he is saying "oh, no, no" around there.  We can see his mouth open at z244 but it may have been open a bit sooner. 

You have correctly stated his WC testimony.  But JBC told Life Magazine something different (Life, 25Nov66, p. 48):



And in 1978 he started to tell the HSCA that he said "oh, no, no" before he was hit and then changed his mind and said he guessed it was after.  But, perhaps most significant, he recalled saying it because he thought the President was being assassinated, not because he was hit by it (1 HSCA 43):



So, while one has to respect the Governor's testimony on that point, my question is: which of the three statements is accurate?  Nellie has always maintained that he said it before the second shot.  She also said that she looked back at JFK before the second shot and did not look back afterward.  She is looking back at him up to about z268.  Altgens said that his z255 photo was taken after the first and before any other shot. Hickey said he was looking at the President when the last two shots sounded. He is turned to the rear in Altgens and has yet to turn forward.  Gayle Newman said that JBC was turned to his right side when the second shot sounded and he just lay back (see her WFAA interview within half an hour of the events). She said the car was passing right in front of them when the second shot sounded.  According to Dr. Shires, Nellie told him that JBC was turned to his right when hit by the second shot.  Greer said he turned around "almost simultaneously" with the second shot and saw JBC in the process of laying back onto Nellie. We can see the final part of that first turn just before z283.

The other aspect that makes me think JBC's WC testimony is incorrect and Nellie's is correct is the lack of any other attempt to even turn his head to face the rear before the turn that begins about z230.  I know that both JBC and Nellie placed the second shot around z234 and that is worthy of consideration. But it is only an opinion of what they think he would have looked like, not what they saw, and it does not fit with the rest of Nellie's testimony.

The problem with JBC being hit earlier than z270 is not the zfilm.  It is the rest of the evidence.  The zfilm by itself is, at best, equivocal in placing the time of the second shot.
52
https://triviavault.co.in/play.php?slug=jfk-assassination-facts-myths-conspiracy-theories&utm_source=msads&utm_medium=a&utm_campaign=524173807&utm_term=keyword&utm_content=82876117290326&t1=a&t2=524173807&t3=1326013890801084&t4=msads&t5=82876117290326

The above link is to a dirt simply, 15 question, JFKA quiz. I would bet that most of the participants on this forum would be able to get all 15 right without breaking a sweat. I wouldn't say the same about those in the general public. While it is impossible to know without actually administering this quiz to a group of randomly selected people, I would gladly wager that not one in ten would be able to answer all 15 correctly and that not one in five would even get 5 of the 15 correct. What the average person doesn't know about the JFKA could fill a book. In fact, countless authors have proven that by continuing to crank out books with new conspiracy angles, as well as old recycled ones.

CTs point with pride to polls that show a clear majority of people believe people other than Oswald were behind the assassination. With a populace that knows so little about the JFKA, and most of what they think they know they probably "learned" from Oliver Stone's movie, it's not at all surprising that a majority of people still believe the conspiracy hype.

There is no mystery to who shot JFK and there hasn't been since day one. The only question worth contemplating is whether he had any accomplices. Despite an army of researchers looking for such evidence for 62 years, no one has come up with any credible evidence that such accomplices existed. At 74 years of age, I feel safe in saying no one ever will in my lifetime. So many CTs, famous and unfamous have gone to their graves without ever discovering any such evidence. The same fate awaits all CTs. All the books written during the past 62 years postulating JFK died via a conspiracy will be relegated to history's clearance table. The same holds true of what has been offered on this and countless other JFKA forums.
53
LP--

Thanks for posting, and that (linked) is a more thorough review of the Latell book.

That the CIA publishes such a review is interesting, especially the part about Castro's DGI extensively penetrating US intel, and the proliferation of double agents.

As the former National Intelligence Officer for Latin America, Brian Latell obviously has some street cred, and is not another JFKA hobbyist-turned-author (or forum commentator). 

A Latin America and Caribbean specialist for the past four decades, he retired in 1998 from his position as a foreign intelligence officer for the U.S. Air Force and as a specialist at the CIA and the National Intelligence Council. He earned his doctorate at Georgetown University. Dr. Latell's most recent book-length work, After Fidel: The Inside Story of Castro's Regime and Cuba's Next Leader, was published in 2005.

---30---

The bulk of the JFKA research community are ideologues, and thus committed to Deep State or LNT explanations of the JFKA. A few right-wing ideologues blame Havana or the KGB (James Woolsey).

LHO as part of a small plot remains something of an orphan theory, but I am sticking with it.

I don't think Latell's book can be wished away.



54
MW: True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Did Bentley say that he engraved his initials on the gun at the same time as Hill, Carroll, Walker, and McDonald? No. You're assuming that all of the officers itnitalled the weapon at the same time, but there's nothing in the record that requires, implies, or suggests that this is the case.


MW: No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

Oh, but it does. You just won't let the sunshine into your mind. Carrol testified to the same thing:

Mr. BALL: And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL: Well, let's see - there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked



MW: Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that?

Because you kept emphasizing Bentley, so that's what I responded to. Your Bentley angle has crashed and burned, so now you want to change the subject.

Did Bentley say that he engraved his initials on the gun at the same time as Hill, Carroll, Walker, and McDonald? No. You're assuming that all of the officers itnitalled the weapon at the same time, but there's nothing in the record that requires, implies, or suggests that this is the case.

Moving the goalpost again? This is exactly the kind of BS that I have seen coming from you in previous conversations. Hill said he had the revolver all the time, until he handed it over to Lt Baker. Your suggestion that Bentley initialed the revolver before everybody else did is an assumption for which there is no evidence. It also doesn't make any sense!

Oh, but it does. You just won't let the sunshine into your mind. Carrol testified to the same thing:

First you claim that Hill's testimony implied it (which it didn't) and now you come up with Carroll who only believes that Bentley and Lyons had already left and doesn't even recall if Westbrook was there.

Wow, that's some solid "evidence"  :D

The one good thing coming out of this is the fact that there also isn't a solid chain of custody for the wallet, just like there isn't one for the revolver, the gray jacket and CE 399.

Because you kept emphasizing Bentley, so that's what I responded to. Your Bentley angle has crashed and burned, so now you want to change the subject.

Nope.. the question about Rose and Walker was already asked before you joined the conversation. The fact that you don't understand ignored that shows exactly your strategy of talking about anything except the matter I wanted to discuss.

And my Bentley angle hasn't crashed and burned. You haven't even come close to making a coherent argument. All you are doing is cherry picking evidence and throwing it at the wall to see what sticks.

As for the original question, which directly relates to the existence of two wallets, you are still completely lost in the dark.

I said it before and I'll repeat it now; talking to you is a waste of time!
55
There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point.  We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.
 



Andrew, I have to disagree with you regarding Gov. Connally's being wounded after frame 255.

 In the Zapruder film, at frame 235, Connally is screaming "Oh no, no, no". after being struck.  His mouth is in speaking motion from that time on in the film until we lose sight of him following the fatal shot.  He stated in his WC testimony:
 
 " I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap ".

 The bullet has already passed through his back, chest, wrist and into his leg.
56
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 02:48:17 AM »
Plausible - if it was not for the mountain of evidence that the head shot was the last shot: All occupants of the limo and Secret service car, Altgens, Gayle and Bill Newman, Zapruder.

2.3 seconds after z313 is z345. Clint Hill had reached the car by z345.  One might wonder why anyone would try to shoot with JFK in this position:



Besides, it also makes no sense that the shooter would take another shot after seeing the results of the head shot.

So you prefer your 1st shot  at Z190 , then 4 secs later a shot at Z270, then 2.5 secs later Z313, where in only 2.5 secs the shooter hits Z313 the smallest target still moving (at 8mph)?   Is it even possible  ? since no CBS trial shooter ever managed to hit the head after only 2.5 secs from hitting the moving full upper body silhouette. No one else as far as I remember had ever accomplished that quick of an ejection of shell and chamber next round and was able to aim and fire and hit at a moving small 8” diameter target even if stationary let alone moving ar 8mph.
57
A not-terribly-unfavorable review from the (CIA-operated but still widely respected) journal Studies in Intelligence:

https://www.cia.gov/resources/csi/static/Castros-Secrets.pdf
58
Book by former CIA analyst sheds light on Cuba, Kennedy, Oswald

By David Adams
July 9, 20131:10 AM GMT+7Updated July 9, 2013


By David Adams

(Reuters) - Lee Harvey Oswald had closer ties to Cuba's intelligence agency in the months before his fatal shooting of John F. Kennedy than previously known, according to a new book by a former CIA analyst.

Furthermore, the CIA lied about its knowledge of those ties to the Warren Commission that was tasked with investigating the crime, according to Brian Latell, the CIA's national intelligence officer for Latin America from 1990 to 1994 and author of the book "Castro's Secrets: Cuban Intelligence, the CIA, & the Assassination of John F. Kennedy," due out on July 9.
Cuba also hid what it knew about Oswald, writes Latell, citing a CIA wiretap of a conversation between two Cuban secret service agents he uncovered in declassified archives.

"I am now convinced that Oswald was engaged with the Cubans," Latell told Reuters.

While he is careful not to suggest Oswald killed Kennedy on instructions from Havana, Latell says the new evidence confirms a widely held belief that Oswald was motivated to kill Kennedy by a fervent desire to impress Cuban leader Fidel Castro.

"I'm convinced he wanted to defect to Cuba," Latell said. "He loved Cuba and Castro, and wanted to join the revolution."
Latell's book, which is a revised edition of an earlier work on Cuban intelligence published last year, is based on new pieces to the puzzle uncovered from several sources, including the unpublished memoirs of Thomas Mann, the U.S. ambassador to Mexico at the time of the assassination, as well as an interview with a former Cuban intelligence agent and declassified government documents.
Seven weeks before Kennedy's assassination on November 22, 1963, Oswald famously traveled to Mexico City by bus hoping to obtain a visa from the Cuban embassy there to visit Havana. Cuba denied him a visa, but the bus trip, and Oswald's known communist sympathies, have long generated suspicion of Cuban involvement in Kennedy's death, although no hard evidence has ever been found.

"What he did during most of the time he spent in the Mexican capital remains perhaps the most important unsolved mystery of the Kennedy assassination," writes Latell, who spent much of his career at the CIA working on Cuba.
U.S. officials never admitted the full extent of what they knew, fearing perhaps they would face public pressure to retaliate against Cuba if greater evidence of a Cuban link became known, Latell argues.

Mann learned shortly after Kennedy's death that Oswald had stayed at the Hotel del Comercio in Mexico City, known by the CIA to be a haven for Cuban spies in Mexico working for the DGI, Havana's national intelligence agency, closely run by Castro.
Mann learned this information at the time from the CIA station chief in Mexico, according to his memoirs, written in 1982. But when he raised it with his superiors in Washington, Mann was silenced by the State Department and told to cease his inquiries about Oswald's stay in Mexico.

Mann was furious and objected, but did as he was told. "In the week after the assassination Mann was convinced Cuba was involved. He was convinced Oswald was working for the Cubans at the hotel," Latell said.

"He started getting very aggressive and upsetting apple carts in Washington."

Mann, who died in 1999, was reposted out of Mexico barely a month after the Kennedy assassination.

During its investigation of the crime in 1964, the Warren Commission was curious about the Mexico trip. But when the commission traveled to Cuba and asked about Oswald's hotel stay, the CIA hid its knowledge about goings on at the hotel, according to Latell.
The Warren Commission later declared that it found no evidence of Cuban government involvement in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.
In his research on Cuban intelligence Latell also discovered records of a CIA wiretap of a phone conversation between two DGI officials in Mexico and Havana shortly after the assassination in which they discussed the events in Dallas. One of them remarked how interesting it was that Oswald had wanted to fight for the revolution. How could they have known that, Latell asks, unless the DGI already had a file on him?

Latell suspects Cuba was aware of him as far as 1959 when Oswald first sought contact with Cuban officials at the Cuban consulate in Los Angeles.

Castro has always asserted that Oswald was totally unknown to Cuban authorities. Latell and others find that hard to believe, citing reports that after being denied a visa in Mexico, Oswald shouted, "I'm going to kill Kennedy," in the street outside the Cuban consulate.

"We thought that was incriminating of Oswald," said Notre Dame law professor G. Robert Blakey, former chief counsel to the 1977 House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations, which re-examined the evidence in Kennedy's death.
Castro was asked about Oswald's shouted threat, but denied any knowledge of it.

"We found that it did happen and he lied about it," said Blakey, adding that the motive of Oswald's Mexico trip remains unclear as Latell's book does not reveal exactly what occurred in the Hotel del Comercio.

Latell also cites an interview with a former Cuban agent tasked with monitoring U.S. communications, who said that on the day of the assassination he was ordered to stop all CIA tracking efforts and redirect his antennae toward Texas.
"Castro knew Kennedy was to be fired upon," Latell says the agent told him.
U.S. officials covered up these vital clues because they were concerned about the consequences if a Cuban connection was publicized, Latell argues.

"Had it been known it could have triggered an invasion of Cuba," he said. Kennedy's successor, Lyndon Johnson, "didn't want that" so soon after the missile crisis that had brought the United States and the Soviet Union to the brink of nuclear war barely a year earlier.

"They went nose to nose before and they didn't want to do it again," Latell says.

Reporting by David Adams; Editing by Arlene Getz and Leslie Adler

---30---

It is not debatable that investigations into LHO-Havana connections were stillborn in 1963-4, on the diktat from President LBJ. No one wanted to know if G-2 or KGB was involved, so the WC de facto mission statement became to find LHO acted alone. That overriding imperative essentially did a snuff job on other leads as well, possibly into the Mafia, or Alpha-66, or other Cuban exiles.

Then we have LHO being shot dead two days after the JFKA, closing off that avenue of investigation. The LHO snuff job has always been fishy.

I have reasonable doubts about SBT-LNT. Curiously, Arlen Specter himself offered as a theory, based on the premise the first shot missed. That premise was based, in part, on the evident gunshot to the curb near James Tague.

I wonder how Gov. JBC held onto his Stetson hat, after being shot through the wrist.


59
This is my favorite factoid about the throat wound: (Taken from Trauma Room 1 testimony).   When the tube which was pushed through the wound to create an airway was removed, the "wound closed" up on itself.   
60
Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley!

True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital

No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

This is what happens when you cherry pick the evidence you like and ignore the rest.

Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that?  :D
MW: True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Did Bentley say that he engraved his initials on the gun at the same time as Hill, Carroll, Walker, and McDonald? No. You're assuming that all of the officers itnitalled the weapon at the same time, but there's nothing in the record that requires, implies, or suggests that this is the case.


MW: No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

Oh, but it does. You just won't let the sunshine into your mind. Carrol testified to the same thing:

Mr. BALL: And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL: Well, let's see - there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked



MW: Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that?

Because you kept emphasizing Bentley, so that's what I responded to. Your Bentley angle has crashed and burned, so now you want to change the subject.


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