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51
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 05:50:39 PM »
I can tell that you have not worked much with witnesses.  While it is true that witnesses can be and often are wrong on details, and some lie, honest witnesses rarely hallucinate the same hallucination. At least not in my experience. Have you thought about what caused so many people to have had the same wrong recollection of the first shot occurring while JFK was waving to the crowd on his right and then moving to his left?

I have never claimed any of the witnesses had an hallucination. Why would you imply I had? I simply point out the established fact that witnesses don't remember events perfectly. They tend to get some things wrong and some things right. I don't know why people had the same wrong misperception. I know people did have the same wrong perceptions and I can only speculate as to why and speculations don't establish anything. I don't know why some people reacted to the first shot and others did not. Clint Hill doesn't remember hearing the first shot but Glen Bennett, riding in the same car, clearly did hear it. So did JBC. So did Rosemary Willis.
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Distracted by other obligations, I neglected my failing eyesight, as well as other medical issues, until I lost sight completely in my right eye and
experienced in my left eye cloudy vision with light sensitivity and washed out colors. Lens replacement by a retina surgeon in late May restored right eye vision
from unmeasurable to 20/30 on the eye test chart. Looking forward to less specialized treatment of the left eye soon by the ophthalmologist who had
referred me to the surgeon who repaired my right eye. I hope to begin driving before that and I am catching up on online information I was unable to
clearly read for the last several years.

I lived the first 72 years of my life with worse than 20/1000 vision, not even correctable to 20/20. The eye surgeon talked me into spending $6K for light-adjustable cataract lenses in lieu of the standard ones covered by Medicare. The ordeal is a bit grueling - standard surgery followed by six weeks of fastidiously avoiding any and all sunlight, even inside the house, three "fine-tuning" treatments with intense light and a final "lock in" treatment with intense light. Holy cow! My vision is now 20/20. The opthamologist who has been seeing me for 25 years could hardly believe it (the light-adjustable lenses were very new at the time, and I was the first example he had seen).

People always tell me what a "miracle" it must be to see clearly without glasses. I tell them that I actually was completely accustomed to being able to put the world out of focus whenever I wanted and that it's kind of disorienting not to be able to do so now. My surgeon said he could understand completely and that they had a case in medical school of a legally blind guy who had his sight restored and was not one bit happy. My retinas are still a bit iffy since the cataract lenses don't improve them, but since I'm now 76 it looks like they are going to hang in there.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The bones of the skull
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 05:35:37 PM »
Folks, just a heads-up that, as you'll see below, Corbett cannot say which of the four skull fragments the FPP identified as frontal bone.

Why? Because the FPP did not identify any of the skull fragments as frontal bone. In fact, they used their wound diagrams to lead people to believe there was no bone missing from the frontal bone. They also absurdly put the triangular fragment in the parietal bone instead of in the frontal bone where Dr. Angel correctly placed it.

The FPP were careful not to come out and say this, because they knew that some of their expert consultants said there was a sizable amount of missing frontal bone, and because they felt compelled to include their consultants' reports and interviews in the FPP report's addendums.

I should clarify something about the FPP and their report. FPP members Baden and Weston were the primary authors of the FPP's report. Dr. Wecht authored the lone dissent to the report, but had no other input into the report. The other FPP members had minimal if any involvement in writing the FPP's report.

So when we talk about the FPP's report, we're mainly talking about what Baden and Weston said and allowed to be diagrammed in the report.

Oh my goodness. Just stop. If you somehow, someway really did not understand that I was clearly referring to the hairline on the forehead, you seriously need to take a junior-high-level reading comprehension course. 

More juvenile evasion and dissembling. The FPP did doggedly deny there was missing frontal bone--that's why they produced bogus diagrams that show no missing frontal bone. You still haven't read John Hunt's article on this subject, have you?

The issue of missing frontal bone was a serious point of contention between Dr. McDonnel and Dr. Angel on the one hand and Dr. Baden and Dr. Weston on the other hand. It got to the point where Dr. McDonnel suspected that Dr. Weston would misrepresent his findings. Hunt discusses these and other facts.

Moreover, another major point of contention was the placement of the triangular fragment. Dr. Angel correctly identified it as "clearly frontal bone," a finding that Dr. Mantik has confirmed. But the FPP could not tolerate this and absurdly put the fragment in the parietal bone. Equally absurdly, the FPP put the Harper fragment in the lower front part of the parietal bone, right below and touching the triangular fragment!

If you weren't so blindly biased and dogmatic and could have brought yourself to read Hunt's article two weeks ago when I first cited and linked it to you, you wouldn't be here embarrassing yourself so badly. (Well, actually, maybe you still would be, but your evasion and dissembling would be even more inexcusable.)

I notice you keep ducking the fact that the FPP's diagrams show no missing frontal bone and that this false portrayal ignores what McDonnel and Angel told the HSCA--and that it also ignores what Dr. Boswell twice diagrammed and what Dr. Finck said after the autopsy. I should add that Dr. Mantik's OD measurements prove that a large chunk of frontal bone is missing.   

Oh, boy. I guess you just don't care that readers will readily see that you're lying again. They will see that you keep citing McDonnel's reading of the enhanced skull x-rays and ignoring his reading of the unenhanced skull x-rays, and that he identified a larger amount of missing frontal bone in the unenhanced x-rays than is seen in the enhanced x-rays.

I've already pointed out to you that the enhanced skull x-rays obscure the right-frontal cloud of tiny bullet fragments, and that the enhanced x-rays fooled Dr. Sturdivan into believing there was no such cloud of tiny fragments.

This is important because Sturdivan told the HSCA that a right-frontal hit by a frangible bullet would have left numerous fragments near its entry point in that region. The FPP didn't bother to inform Sturdivan that the unenhanced x-rays clearly show just such a right-frontal cloud of tiny fragments.

Readers will also see that I have told you several times that Dr. McDonnel only viewed the skull x-rays but that Dr. Angel viewed both the skull x-rays and the photos of the skull fragments. And, again, for the umpteenth time, Dr. McDonnel identified a larger amount of missing frontal bone on the unenhanced x-rays than he did on the enhanced x-rays.

So you really should stop the dishonest posturing that I have "changed course" between Angel and McDonnel. 

Why am I not surprised that you're still hiding behind this misleading strawman argument?

Anyway, so, umm, tell me: How do you explain the fact that the FPP produced a bunch of wound diagrams that show no missing frontal bone, that put the triangular fragment in the top front part of the parietal bone, and that put the Harper fragment in the lower front part of the parietal bone?

One, that doesn't answer my question, and your answer ignores the fact that the FPP said that the four skull fragments completed the exit wound and left "no additional pieces of bone missing." 

Two, McDonnel did not identify any of the skull fragments as frontal bone.

Three, in his reading of the unenhanced skull x-rays, McDonnel did not limit the missing frontal bone to the rear area of the bone. Again, he described a larger area of missing frontal bone in that analysis, a fact that you keep ducking.

Four, the FPP ignored both of McDonnel's analyses and showed no missing frontal bone in any of their wound diagrams. Needless to say, they also ignored Dr. Angel's analysis and diagrams.

Five, the fact that the skull x-rays show a sizable amount of missing frontal bone destroys the FPP's reconstruction of the large head wound.

I'm even more curious: Do you think readers are so illiterate or unintelligent that they will not notice that you keep ignoring the fact that Dr. McDonnel described a larger amount of missing frontal bone in his analysis of the unenhanced skull x-rays?

Do you think readers will not notice that you keep ducking the fact that the FPP ignored both of Dr. McDonnel's analyses, and also ignored Dr. Angel's analysis and diagrams?

Do you think readers will not notice that you keep ducking the fact that the FPP's identification of the triangular fragment as parietal bone is ludicrous and inexcusable?

Do you think readers will not notice that you keep ignoring the fact that the correct placement of the triangular fragment means that the area of missing frontal bone extended nearly to the hairline, if not up to it? (Dr. Mantik has confirmed this fact with OD measurements, but of course you've rejected the science of OD measurement in the JFK case because it destroys your version of the shooting and your denial of a cover-up.)

Anyway, to come back full circle, I will again point out that you clearly and undeniably blundered when you claimed that the FPP identified one of the skull fragments as frontal bone. They did no such thing. In fact, they refused to accept the fact that the skull x-rays show a substantial amount of missing frontal bone, and they refused to accept Dr. Angel's identification of the triangular fragment as frontal bone. 

Your continued refusal to man up and admit you were wrong, clearly wrong, doesn't say much for your character and credibility.

I keep reminding you that you said the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone. I keep asking you for a quote that supports that claim and you keep dodging that request. Now you are claiming that is a strawman argument. That implies you are denying you ever wrote that. Sorry, but you really did write that. Just to remined you, here is the exact quote:

"the FPP doggedly denied that any bone was missing from the frontal bone".

Now if you can't find a quote to support that statement, why don't you simply admit you misspoke and overstated your case. It happens to all of us from time to time. Instead you choose to go into your Inartful Dodger act and in the process, you make yourself look quite foolish.
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MG: So you're still trying to lie your way out of admitting your blunder.

As you know, I've already pointed out to you that you're only citing McDonnel's reading of the enhanced x-rays, which don't show some of the damage as clearly, and are ignoring the fact that he described a larger area of missing frontal bone in his reading of the unenhanced x-rays. I've also pointed out to you that Angel had the advantage of using the photos of the skull fragments, whereas McDonnel was not shown those photos and was only asked to read the x-rays.

But of course you just keep ignoring these facts.


JC: Oh, so these are facts.

Folks, just a heads-up that, as you'll see below, Corbett cannot say which of the four skull fragments the FPP identified as frontal bone.

Why? Because the FPP did not identify any of the skull fragments as frontal bone. In fact, they used their wound diagrams to lead people to believe there was no bone missing from the frontal bone. They also absurdly put the triangular fragment in the parietal bone instead of in the frontal bone where Dr. Angel correctly placed it.

The FPP were careful not to come out and say this, because they knew that some of their expert consultants said there was a sizable amount of missing frontal bone, and because they felt compelled to include their consultants' reports and interviews in the FPP report's addendums.

I should clarify something about the FPP and their report. FPP members Baden and Weston were the primary authors of the FPP's report. Dr. Wecht authored the lone dissent to the report, but had no other input into the report. The other FPP members had minimal if any involvement in writing the FPP's report.

So when we talk about the FPP's report, we're mainly talking about what Baden and Weston said and allowed to be diagrammed in the report.

It couldn't be your misunderstanding of what these professionals had to say. You cite Angel saying there was damage to the frontal bone near JFK's hairline. Which hairline. The one above his forehead or the one around his temples. Because the leaked photos show evidence of the latter. I know of no photos showing damage to the hairline above his forehead. My guess is you read "hairline" and "frontal bone" and you assumed  they were talking about his forehead but maybe there is another explanation for your confusion.

Oh my goodness. Just stop. If you somehow, someway really did not understand that I was clearly referring to the hairline on the forehead, you seriously need to take a junior-high-level reading comprehension course. 

MG: You're lying again. The FPP produced diagrams showing no missing bone from the frontal bone, and they absurdly placed the triangular fragment in the parietal bone, even though they knew better from their own radiology and forensic consultants. In fact, the FPP did not place any of the four skull fragments in the frontal bone.

JC: If you are unable to provide a quote to support your assertion, I can only conclude that you overspoke when you said the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone.

MG: No, this is just further proof of your lack of candor and of your poor knowledge of the medical evidence. As I've mentioned, the FPP avoided this issue like the plague in the text of their report. They carefully avoided saying anything about the amount of missing frontal bone in their report.

JC: Oh, so after telling us the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone, you're now telling us "the FPP avoided this issue like the plague in the text of their report.". Can't you even keep your story straight?

More juvenile evasion and dissembling. The FPP did doggedly deny there was missing frontal bone--that's why they produced bogus diagrams that show no missing frontal bone. You still haven't read John Hunt's article on this subject, have you?

The issue of missing frontal bone was a serious point of contention between Dr. McDonnel and Dr. Angel on the one hand and Dr. Baden and Dr. Weston on the other hand. It got to the point where Dr. McDonnel suspected that Dr. Weston would misrepresent his findings. Hunt discusses these and other facts.

Moreover, another major point of contention was the placement of the triangular fragment. Dr. Angel correctly identified it as "clearly frontal bone," a finding that Dr. Mantik has confirmed. But the FPP could not tolerate this and absurdly put the fragment in the parietal bone. Equally absurdly, the FPP put the Harper fragment in the lower front part of the parietal bone, right below and touching the triangular fragment!

If you weren't so blindly biased and dogmatic and could have brought yourself to read Hunt's article two weeks ago when I first cited and linked it to you, you wouldn't be here embarrassing yourself so badly. (Well, actually, maybe you still would be, but your evasion and dissembling would be even more inexcusable.)

I notice you keep ducking the fact that the FPP's diagrams show no missing frontal bone and that this false portrayal ignores what McDonnel and Angel told the HSCA--and that it also ignores what Dr. Boswell twice diagrammed and what Dr. Finck said after the autopsy. I should add that Dr. Mantik's OD measurements prove that a large chunk of frontal bone is missing.   

MG: But, again, they produced diagrams that showed no bone missing from the frontal bone, diagrams that put all four of the skull fragments in other parts of the skull, not one in the frontal bone (see, for example, HSCA JFK Exhibit F-66).

And your response is to argue (with a straight face?) that this doesn't constitute denying there was missing frontal bone!

Yeah, never mind that even the least problematic x-ray reading from the FPP's expert consultants said a sizable piece of bone was missing from the rear of the frontal bone! And never mind that the FPP's expert consultant in skull-fragment identification and skull reconstruction said the triangular fragment was "clearly frontal bone" and produced diagrams showing that the missing frontal bone extended nearly to the hairline!


JC: This is fascinating. A few posts ago you were telling us Dr. Angel said the missing frontal bone was not limited to the posterior of the bone. Now you have changed course again and going with Dr. McDonnel's conclusions. Why can't you come up with one story and stick to it?

Oh, boy. I guess you just don't care that readers will readily see that you're lying again. They will see that you keep citing McDonnel's reading of the enhanced skull x-rays and ignoring his reading of the unenhanced skull x-rays, and that he identified a larger amount of missing frontal bone in the unenhanced x-rays than is seen in the enhanced x-rays.

I've already pointed out to you that the enhanced skull x-rays obscure the right-frontal cloud of tiny bullet fragments, and that the enhanced x-rays fooled Dr. Sturdivan into believing there was no such cloud of tiny fragments.

This is important because Sturdivan told the HSCA that a right-frontal hit by a frangible bullet would have left numerous fragments near its entry point in that region. The FPP didn't bother to inform Sturdivan that the unenhanced x-rays clearly show just such a right-frontal cloud of tiny fragments.

Readers will also see that I have told you several times that Dr. McDonnel only viewed the skull x-rays but that Dr. Angel viewed both the skull x-rays and the photos of the skull fragments. And, again, for the umpteenth time, Dr. McDonnel identified a larger amount of missing frontal bone on the unenhanced x-rays than he did on the enhanced x-rays.

So you really should stop the dishonest posturing that I have "changed course" between Angel and McDonnel. 

MG: "Yeah, exactly. The FPP wasn't denying anything when they produced wound diagrams that showed no missing frontal bone, that didn't place any of the four skull fragments in the frontal bone, and that ignored what McDonnel and Angel told them," to paraphrase your silly dodge.

Let's approach your discrediting evasion by asking you a simple question regarding your blundering statement in your OP for this thread. You said,

"The autopsy report stated the blowout in JFK's skull was "chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions." The FPP also identified a piece missing from the posterior of the frontal bone."


JC: I was pointing out that the FPP included Dr. McDonnel's report in their findings. You have claimed that the FPP "doggedly denied"  there was missing frontal bone, an assertion you can't support with an actual quote.

Why am I not surprised that you're still hiding behind this misleading strawman argument?

Anyway, so, umm, tell me: How do you explain the fact that the FPP produced a bunch of wound diagrams that show no missing frontal bone, that put the triangular fragment in the top front part of the parietal bone, and that put the Harper fragment in the lower front part of the parietal bone?

MG: Okay, which piece of skull did they identify as missing from the rear part of the frontal bone? Which one of the four skull fragments was it?

And keep in mind that the FPP claimed that those four fragments completed the large head wound and left "no additional pieces of bone missing" (HSCA RN 180-10120-10023, p. 2), so you have no wiggle room.


JC: McDonnel said the missing piece of frontal bone was from the posterior. He wasn't any more specific than that.

One, that doesn't answer my question, and your answer ignores the fact that the FPP said that the four skull fragments completed the exit wound and left "no additional pieces of bone missing." 

Two, McDonnel did not identify any of the skull fragments as frontal bone.

Three, in his reading of the unenhanced skull x-rays, McDonnel did not limit the missing frontal bone to the rear area of the bone. Again, he described a larger area of missing frontal bone in that analysis, a fact that you keep ducking.

Four, the FPP ignored both of McDonnel's analyses and showed no missing frontal bone in any of their wound diagrams. Needless to say, they also ignored Dr. Angel's analysis and diagrams.

Five, the fact that the skull x-rays show a sizable amount of missing frontal bone destroys the FPP's reconstruction of the large head wound.

I'm curious. Why did you earlier cite McDonnel's report to support your position and now are disputing his conclusions.

I'm even more curious: Do you think readers are so illiterate or unintelligent that they will not notice that you keep ignoring the fact that Dr. McDonnel described a larger amount of missing frontal bone in his analysis of the unenhanced skull x-rays?

Do you think readers will not notice that you keep ducking the fact that the FPP ignored both of Dr. McDonnel's analyses, and also ignored Dr. Angel's analysis and diagrams?

Do you think readers will not notice that you keep ducking the fact that the FPP's identification of the triangular fragment as parietal bone is ludicrous and inexcusable?

Do you think readers will not notice that you keep ignoring the fact that the correct placement of the triangular fragment means that the area of missing frontal bone extended nearly to the hairline, if not up to it? (Dr. Mantik has confirmed this fact with OD measurements, but of course you've rejected the science of OD measurement in the JFK case because it destroys your version of the shooting and your denial of a cover-up.)

Anyway, to come back full circle, I will again point out that you clearly and undeniably blundered when you claimed that the FPP identified one of the skull fragments as frontal bone. They did no such thing. In fact, they refused to accept the fact that the skull x-rays show a substantial amount of missing frontal bone, and they refused to accept Dr. Angel's identification of the triangular fragment as frontal bone. 

Your continued refusal to man up and admit you were wrong, clearly wrong, doesn't say much for your character and credibility. 

55
I'm kind of carving out my own specialized niche in JFKA research, just in case you can't tell. I will be presenting at future JFKA conferences as "The acknowledged expert on all things bucket-related."

Here we have a photo of a bucket - THE bucket, enquiring minds want to know? - in Trauma Room One at Parkland. The caption says this is the bucket "used by Secret Service agent Samuel Kinney to clean up the back seat of limousine." Which he then took into Trauma Room One because "there might be something in the soapy mess the docs can use to patch up the boss." Ya think?

(Further research reveals that such buckets are called "kick buckets" in medical parlance, although we probably don't want to know why. You can still buy them from medical supply houses just to give the replica of Trauma Room One you created in your spare bedroom those little touches of authenticity that make all the difference. Jackie herself is reported to have said "Much as I appreciate the sentiment, a replica of Trauma Room One without a kick bucket is simply beyond the pale.")

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At this page, Vince Palamara - who KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE SECRET SERVICE'S ROLE IN THE COVER-UP THAN ANYONE ON EARTH - has an entire series of quotes PROVING that the bucket may or may not have been a "stainless steel hospital bucket" and that the back seat of the limousine may or may not have been scrubbed down. Just do a "Find on Page" for "bucket" and you will be enthralled by what may or may not have occurred. This clinches it, or maybe not.

https://vincepalamara.blogspot.com/2024/12/forensic-issues-limo-clean-up-secret.html
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If this were not sufficient, here is a video proving - yes, PROVING - that Mr. Bucket was not alone but that the limousine was in fact scrubbed down with other (invisible) buckets, (invisible) sponges and (invisible) hoses! In fact, the limo was scrubbed so clean that some clod put a For Sale sign on the windshield before being tackled by Imposter Secret Service Guys. The fact that the video simply seems to show the top being attached is proof - PROOF, I tell you! - of just how insidious the cover-up was. As CTers, we of course know why the bucket is no longer in evidence - it was, in fact, the bucket into which JFK's brain was placed at the autopsy! I surely don't need to remind you of this fact, but neither Mr. Brain nor Mr. Bucket WAS EVER SEEN AGAIN!!!

58
I tell ya, the cover-up artists at the Sixth Floor Museum are just bastards. Here they have posted a photo of the limo with the trunk open and the top off. Next we have the same shot with the top on - AND THERE SITS THE BUCKET, the clear but obviously false implication being that Mr. Bucket in fact contained the bolts and screws and whatnot by which Mr. Top was attached, as has long been claimed by those responsible for the cover-up. If this were not nefarious enough, keen-eyed observers will note that said bucket is being carefully guarded (well, not all that carefully - but play along, willya?) by an Imposter Cop who has only one hand visible! I can think of no possibility other than that he is shielding his other hand from view because it has - yes! yes! - a Glove on it! Mr. Bucket is in fact in the care and custody of One Glove Imposter Haygood Bogus Cop Guy!!! The mind simply boggles - boggles, I tell you!

Well, this clinches it: apparently, the cover-up is so watertight that images from the Sixth Floor Museum CANNOT BE POSTED HERE! But, fortunately, you can view them here, although you may end up as a JFKA Mystery Death if you do so more than once:

https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/11880/image-of-the-presidential-limousine-with-the-top-on-at-parkl

Here's a different photo of the trunk open and the top being attached, with Mr. Bucket being more-or-less carefully guarded by a No Gloves Imposter Cop Guy:

59
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 04:06:46 PM »
Nice job of cherry picking what you are willing to believe from witnesses. The reality is witnesses get all kinds of things wrong. The typical witness, if there is such a thing, will get some things right and some things wrong. That's why anything and everything witnesses tell us needs corroboration before it should be accepted. To you, corroboration means the witness tells a story that conforms with your ridiculous scenario that only you believe.
I can tell that you have not worked much with witnesses.  While it is true that witnesses can be and often are wrong on details, and some lie, honest witnesses rarely hallucinate the same hallucination. At least not in my experience. Have you thought about what caused so many people to have had the same wrong recollection of the first shot occurring while JFK was waving to the crowd on his right and then moving to his left?
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OK, you hopeless JFKA dullards, by popular non-demand I shall end my contributions to this, er, thread with what I regard as my single wackiest experience. Not necessarily profound or meaningful, but by God wacky. It involves, of course, a lizard.

I have lived in my funky little house for 29 years. It is 86 years old, and I am only the second owner. It has a detached one-car garage that is made of pine and is even funkier than the house. One afternoon about ten years ago, I was finishing up some little project at a sink near the side door. Absolutely not thinking about anything.

I turned and stepped toward the door to leave. "Look in that box!" This was not an audible voice, but it also wasn't just a thought. These were definite words that intruded into my brain. Weirder yet, I somehow knew exactly what box the voice was talking about.

Behind me, perhaps six feet away, were some old built-in shelves. Beneath the bottom shelf were five cardboard boxes full of this and that. The mystery voice was talking about a box containing a GM air compressor. In fact, it was the box the compressor had been in when I bought it.

"I don't need to look in that box," I actually said under my breath. "I know what's in that box. It's my air compressor." I had one foot out the door when:

"LOOK IN THAT BOX!!!"

"OK, OK, calm down, I'll look in the box." Feeling a bit foolish, I opened the box. There was my air compressor and ... a huge pink lizard, the biggest I've ever seen around my place, surrounded by his own feces. He appeared to be dead as a doornail - no sign of life at all.

Being a kindly sort, I poured him onto the lawn under a bush, sprinkled him with water, and left a little bowl of drinking water. When I checked an hour later, he was gone!

WHAT ON EARTH was this all about? I guarantee you, I did not subconsciously hear Mr. Lizard scratching at the box. When I opened it, this puppy was long gone. Can comatose lizards communicate telepathically with humans? Do lizards have guardian angels? Do I have a guardian angel who is inordinately fond of lizards? I have no idea, but I suspect that little incidents like this - which many people might shrug off with "Huh, that was weird, what's for lunch?" - are in fact major clues to the nature of the reality in which we live.
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