JFK Assassination Forum

This is the WC's conclusion regarding the testimonies of Shelley, Lovelady and Adams:

"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calvery, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They re-entered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."

It confirms the sequence of events I've been presenting all along:
Shelley and Lovelady were on the top step when Gloria Calvery came up and said that the President had been shot. After the encounter with Gloria, they left the steps and moved out into the street.
It was then, and only then - after they had left the steps - that they saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
This is the sequence of events that both men outline in their WC testimonies.
It is an untrue sequence of events.

Why do Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements after the assassination?
The obvious answer is that they have created a false account of their movements in order to cover-up the true account of their movements.

FALSE ACCOUNT

Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
They are still on the steps when Gloria runs up and tells everyone the President has been shot.
After this encounter they make their way across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
At some point after leaving the steps they turn and see Truly and Lovelady still outside the building.
They then make their way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards.
After a short time in this area they re-enter the TSBD building through the west door.

TRUE ACCOUNT

Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and runs into Gloria coming the other way.
They both head for the TSBD steps where Gloria tells everyone the President has been shot, including Lovelady who has not left the steps.
Both men then re-enter the TSBD building through the front door and make their way to the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting.

Shelley and Lovelady are trying to cover up the fact that Vicki Adams saw them near the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination.
That is the purpose of all the added movements and the time it takes to make these movements. In particular, it is the purpose of the 3 Minute Lie.
The question then becomes - why are Shelley and Lovelady trying to disguise the fact they made their way directly towards the back of the first floor in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?

Following on from the above post, an analysis of Vicki Adams' WC testimony to dispel the lame notion that she was somehow mistaken about how long it took her to get down to the first floor. Those who doubt Adams believe that, instead of immediately racing downstairs to find out whether the President was shot, she hung around the office for a few minutes before taking off. In this bozo scenario Adams is in no rush whatsoever then, for some unknown reason, suddenly bursts into a sprint after which she completely forgets that she was hanging around in the office for a few minutes!

What does her testimony tell us about her as a person:

Mr. Belin: Were you graduated from high school?
Miss ADAMS: In San Francisco, that's correct.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS: Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961.
Mr. Belin: Then what did you do from there?
Miss ADAMS: I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here.
Mr. Belin: And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time?
Miss ADAMS: Yes; for 1 year.

She is a young, intelligent woman who, unlike convicted gun-runner Lovelady, is of impeccable moral character.
Her intelligence comes through during her testimony, each question is answered confidently and precisely, her recollection is clear and detailed.
She recounts where she was located at the time of the assassination, who she was with and what she saw. She describes the limo approaching, recalled that someone called out causing JFK and Jackie turn turn to face the building, then the limo went behind a tree at which point she heard three shots:

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

In this concise sentence she describes her actions following the last shot until she left the building. She stresses the immediacy of her actions when she says "following that, the third shot". She is relating her departure from the window to the last shot. This 'immediacy' is confirmed later in the testimony when she recalls it was a matter of seconds between the last shot and her departure from the window:

Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS: Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

During her testimony she makes it clear that she and Sandra Styles ran until they were outside the building:

Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I was running. We were running.

Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs;

Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Yes.

Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks.

Vicki is clear on this issue - she left the window within seconds of the last shot and was running all the way.
Why, though? What possessed her to want to get outside so quickly?
This question is never asked directly during her testimony but the reason becomes apparent as she describes her movements. With every person she interacts with as she runs around, she seems to want to find out whether the President had been shot.

Mr. BELIN: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.

Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here." And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."

"I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out. I think the President is shot."

"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio"

Adams hears the shots ring out and is convinced someone was shooting at the President but she needs to find out for sure. Her decision to find out is immediate, she takes off within seconds. The idea that she hangs around the office for a few minutes after the shooting can't really be reconciled with her need to find out whether or not the President has been shot. The idea that she is suddenly running full tilt can't really be reconciled with the idea of hanging around in the office for a few minutes before taking off.
What does make sense is exactly what she testifies to - she is watching the motorcade, she hears the shots, she believes that someone has shot at the President, she immediately takes off running to find out what's going on.
There is absolutely nothing in her testimony that even hints at her hanging around in the office for a few minutes.

Mr. BELIN: Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS: I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

Mr. BELIN: How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN: So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, approximately.

The notion that Adams is somehow mistaken about how long it took to get down to the first floor is a convenience for lazy "researchers".
And what about her recollection that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor less than 60 seconds after the last shot?
Is this another mistake she makes?

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

Belin takes Vicki through floor by floor asking what she saw until he reaches the first floor:

Mr. Belin: When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS: Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

They then get into a detailed conversation about the exact position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:

Mr. Belin: Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS: Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. Belin: You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS: That's correct.
Mr. Belin: It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS: Yes, sir.

In the diagram below the red line represents the route Adams and Styles took across the first floor from the stairs to the back door.
The red circle represents the approximate position of Shelley and Lovelady when she saw them:



Mr. Belin: Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS: I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. Belin: Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS: Nothing.

When Adams says she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, it isn't some passing comment that is ignored. Every aspect of this observation is examined. Not only does she recall their exact location, she also reveals that she actually called out to them only to receive no reply.
Isn't it strange that Shelley and Lovelady appear to have absolutely no recollection of this interaction?
Vicki Adams is a highly credible witness. Intelligent and articulate, with excellent powers of recall. There is no credible reason to question her testimony.
There can be little doubt that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor within 60 seconds of the assassination.

Since I’ve never seen a person jump down  9 steps to a midlevel then turn 90 degrees and jump down the next 9 steps, then make an acute sharp angle turn and jump across 20 ft of floor landing, then I can safely that it would without doubt take way more than 5 secs to run down 18 steps of this dogleg type staircase and then across 20 ft  of the diagonal distance to get to the next staircase.

The fastest probable time would be 10 secs and that’s skipping 3 steps at a time , therefore 18 steps can be descended in 6 secs.

Then the momentum of doing that prevents the person from being able to turn on a dime so the diagonal distance cutting back across the landing is more of an arc than it is a true straight line diagonal , hence 20ft of distance to traverse to reach the next staircase.

3 secs to traverse that 20 ft. at a 7ft/ sec pace.

So it might be possible to do it in 9 secs per floor if you are an agile 24 year old 135 lb man like Oswald, wearing some kind of flat sole shoe that was not slippery.

But Adams and Stiles  were females in dresses wearing heels and it is preposterous to suggest that it would only take them 5 secs per floor and they could reach the ground floor in 15 secs.

Dan, seek help before the rest of your cognitive ability is lost and you begin mumbling and think you are the POTUS:)

But otherwise, I’m in agreement that Lovelady and Shelley were not outside for 3 minutes but were mistaken about the time and it was really only about 45 sec to a minute when they returned to the TSBD, hence a brief glimpse of Adams and Stiles near the rear elevators just before Truly and Baker arrived.

Imo, I don’t think either Lovelady or Shelley originally intended to lie, but that they were never “corrected” nor at any time was a time  trial conducted, and they were encouraged by prosecutors to repeat their estimates , mainly to avoid the problem of Mrs Garners time of exit out of the 4th floor following behind Adams and Stiles which would be like about 30 secs post shots if Adams/Stiles stared down tge 4th floor staircase as early 25 sec posts shots.

You can’t have Garner exiting the 4th floor office with clear LOS to the rear staircase and landing as soon as 30 or even 40 secs post shots because Oswald does not even begin down from the 6 th floor staircase until approx 40 secs post shots at best.

This is the WC's conclusion regarding the testimonies of Shelley, Lovelady and Adams:

"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calvery, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They re-entered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."

It confirms the sequence of events I've been presenting all along:
Shelley and Lovelady were on the top step when Gloria Calvery came up and said that the President had been shot. After the encounter with Gloria, they left the steps and moved out into the street.
It was then, and only then - after they had left the steps - that they saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
This is the sequence of events that both men outline in their WC testimonies.
It is an untrue sequence of events.

Why do Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements after the assassination?
The obvious answer is that they have created a false account of their movements in order to cover-up the true account of their movements.

FALSE ACCOUNT

Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
They are still on the steps when Gloria runs up and tells everyone the President has been shot.
After this encounter they make their way across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
At some point after leaving the steps they turn and see Truly and Lovelady still outside the building.
They then make their way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards.
After a short time in this area they re-enter the TSBD building through the west door.

TRUE ACCOUNT

Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and runs into Gloria coming the other way.
They both head for the TSBD steps where Gloria tells everyone the President has been shot, including Lovelady who has not left the steps.
Both men then re-enter the TSBD building through the front door and make their way to the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting.

Shelley and Lovelady are trying to cover up the fact that Vicki Adams saw them near the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination.
That is the purpose of all the added movements and the time it takes to make these movements. In particular, it is the purpose of the 3 Minute Lie.
The question then becomes - why are Shelley and Lovelady trying to disguise the fact they made their way directly towards the back of the first floor in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?

The U.K. and Jordan participated in the shootdown. Not that Fix News/fascist alt-right blogs would ever bring themselves to acknowledge that. Canada has a presence in the China Sea, helping the US to provoke a war with China, so the US can write off all its debt owed China (debt that makes possible the US playing racist Global Cop).

The US "capitalist utopia" built on loans from China. Most of the quality home appliances that enhance the American lifestyle built in China.

LOL.  What exactly did the UK and Jordan do?   I see no mention of "Canada."  The larger point is that none of this would be going on except for the weakness and incompetence of the Biden administration.  That weakness has emboldened bad actors around the world.  Next up will be China attacking Taiwan.  No better opportunity than with a weak US president during an election cycle who has already bungled his way to two major wars. 

Seems doubtful to me that Lovelady and Shelley went thru the desktop  counter ahead of Baker and Truly because Truly had to unlock the counter top (as I recall) so that he and Baker could go thru.

This extra action is what I believer slowed up their trek about at least 5 maybe 10 secs such that it was not until about 65 sec post shots when  B/T are thru this obstacle and are actually facing in the direction they travel diagonally across the floor to get to the rear elevator.

Thus B/T missed seeing Adams/Stiles as A/S reached the 1st floor by 60 secs post shots.

As far as the time required for 2 women wearing heels to go down 18 steps and 20 ft landing distance per floor it’s doubtful they could do that any faster than about 12 secs per floor

so my estimate is that if they left the 4th floor office window before Dillard took the photo approx 10 sec post shots , then having to traverse about 80 ft at least to get to staircase would require about 15 secs at a 5 ft/per sec pace.

Then 3 floors of steps and landing at 12 sec/per fllor pace = 36 secs

So 60 sec total estimate by Adams was pretty close.

It may require getting 2 women wearing heels to reenact this descent down L- shaped staircases to really determine if they could make it down as fast as 45 sec post shots.

Hey Zeon, I did the calculations for the quickest feasible time Adams and Styles could have reached the first floor in Reply#362 [page 46] of the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread. I've reproduced it below.
I wanted to work out the very quickest time it could've reasonably happened.
The time for getting down the stairs was based on a reconstruction of Oswald's movements in which he made it down four flights of stairs in approximately 20 seconds - that's 5 seconds per flight, and he wasn't even moving that quickly.
You use a speed of 5 ft per second to calculate Vicki's movements across the floor but that is walking pace, about 3.4mph. Adams can't stress enough that she ran all the way until stopped outside by the police officer, I've used a modest running pace of 6mph

The counter was not locked when Truly and Baker went through. The issue was the swinging door which caught on something and Baker crashed into the back of Truly because he was too close and they were running. So there would have been no issue for Shelley and Lovelady to pass through.
In their affidavits Shelley and Lovelady re-enter the building without have gone anywhere (apart from Shelley going across and back the Elm Street extension).
Lovelady never even leaves the steps. Less than 60 seconds later Vicki Adams sees them towards the back of the first floor meaning they must have passed through the lobby.

I'm not sure why you think it would have taken more than one minute for Truly and Baker to get into the main working area of the first floor. The Darnell footage has Baker arriving in the area at the foot of the steps within a few short seconds which is supported by Pauline Sanders FBI statement that she saw a police officer with a round white helmet on the steps seconds after the shooting.

Vicki stated - "I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.'

So let's take her at her word. Before the limo has reached the underpass she has decided to race downstairs.

Assumption #1 Let's say that she begins her run from the fourth floor window as the limo reaches the underpass.
Assumption #2 Let's say the headshot is the last shot.
Assumption #3 Vicki runs all the way.

Using Mark Tyler's Motorcade mapping, Vicki's run begins about 8 seconds after the headshot. The Dillard pic is taken about eleven seconds after the headshot.
This means Vicki started her run 3 seconds before the Dillard pic so it is not surprising to find she is nowhere to be seen in it. Conversely, the Dillard pic demonstrates that Vicki had indeed already began her run.
There are two main sections to Vicki's run:
1) From the window to the top of the stairs.
2) Down 3 flights of stairs

I'll deal with the stairs first.
The video below is a timed recreation of Oswald's supposed scurry from the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom. This means he has to descend four flights of stairs, whereas Vicki descends only three. I will note the time it takes 'Oswald' to reach the second floor, divide this time by four to get the time taken to descend each floor, then time this by three to get an approximate time for how long it took Vicki to descend 3 flights of stairs.
The time trial begins around 6:48 in the video. There is a timer for the trial itself.

In the time trial, 'Oswald' reaches the top of the 6th floor stairs at around 27 seconds.
'Oswald' reaches the second floor at around 46 seconds.
So, in this time trial it took 'Oswald' approximately 19 seconds to descend four flights of stairs.
For ease of arithmetic let's say it took him 20 seconds, that's 5 seconds per floor, which would make it 15 seconds for Vicki to get down the stairs and remember, in the time trial 'Oswald' isn't really running, unlike Vicki, so this estimation of 15 seconds might actually be a little over.

So, how long does it take for Vicki to get from the window to the top of the stairs?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor and the most probable route taken by Adams and Styles.



Using the scale provided in the diagram it is possible to determine that this distance Adams ran is just under 110 feet, but let's call it 110.
Assuming a very modest running speed of 6mph, this distance can be covered in 12.5 seconds.

So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):

8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.

A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators. This is the only way the Stroud document can be correct.