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I assume that excludes the 3 loud noises on the day of the actual event.

The point of the experiment was to determine if Norman could hear the bolt action and the shells hitting the floor above. The only reasons I can think of for doing an actual firing would be to see if Norman thought the sound was the same and if dust actually falls from the ceiling but after the three gunshots on the 22nd was there any dust left to fall?

JohnM
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Why the first shot missed
« Last post by Jerry Organ on Today at 04:02:25 AM »
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Hi Jerry, builder here, so I may be able to help. Most floorboards, 'planks' as you call them, are 6" wide, those look like soil/main drain pipes, not water pipes so they're going to be 4" diameter. These measurements are confirmed by the bricks, ie 3no vertical courses are approximately 8". Nice work, mate.

Thanks, Denis. You're just the fellow we 3Ders need.



The Museum measured an exterior brick at ground level: 8 1/8" long, 2 3/16" high and 3 7/8 wide. 1/2" mortar. The building was rebuild in 1902 and so nothing's standard with today.

The height of the bricks inside the wooden window frame are the same as the height of the bricks outside the frame. The width of the pipes are about the height of a brick. I used 2" as a starting place. The floorboards are roughly 1 1/2-times the width of the pipes. I didn't notice that until today. I believe the floorboards to be about 3 1/2", probably less. I think I have to adjust the width of either/both the floorboards and the pipes, and adjust the angle of the floorboards a bit sharper. Really hard to figure what to do without the measurements, which are in the works.



Your suggestion as to purpose made me wonder if the pipes could be for dry-venting. I think the pipes were put in after the building was built; they look so unplanned. They seem to go through the ceiling on the seventh floor. Doesn't the seventh floor seem high? I suppose pre-AC, some top floors in Texas had the extra height for ventilation.



You can right-click-open the image in another window to make it bigger. Do you know why the horizontal bricks beneath the SN window pair have a shorter brick on each course that is placed randomly? I know they're trying to equalize a space, but did they knowingly place those odd-length bricks at random areas to hide the need for them? I didn't notice them until I started to build the model. That's pretty clever of the bricklayers.
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Why the first shot missed
« Last post by James Hackerott on Today at 03:36:04 AM »
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Sorry, Charles. I haven't forgotten your request. My placement of the pipes is a visual guess. Obviously use at own risk.

I sent the Sixth Museum a request for measurements, and the curator, who's really helpful, told me just now that he will get back to me with true measurements when they access that area for maintenance. I'll PM those to you when I get them. Meanwhile you can use what I am using or build off it.

The westward pipe is a simple vertical. As I have it, the total height of the coupling is 3 1/4". I have the bottom of the coupling 8 13/16" above the floor (just make it 8 3/4" or 9", whatever). The coupling doesn't interfere with a hypothetical shooter; I put the coupling in there for the sake of completeness and haven't bothered with the bolts.

For the east pipe, I drew straight lines and angled them and placed them where I thought the center of the pipe ran. I then used SketchUp's "Follow-Me" tool to create the pipe by having a 2" circle follow the "path" of the lines. The Sketchup Tool decided I needed two elbows at each of the two bends. The closest any part of the first bend is to the floor is 13".

There is something wrong with my measurements. If the pipes are 2", then the planks have to be about 3". Or the planks are correct and the pipes needs to be a bit wider. Anyway, the key is how the westward pipe is relative to the window's masonry opening, which I think is fairly close now. That's the pipe that interferes.
Hi Jerry and Charles,

Please allow me to submit my 3D work of the Snipper's Nest. The bent pipe was always a problem to model until I discovered, in the POV-Ray software, a procedure named “sphere_sweep” - very similar to your description of SketchUp's “Follow-Me” tool.  I use a 2” diameter for both pipes, basically because that looks right. I'm eager to learn Steven Fagan's results if you would kindly share those. Attached is an animated GIF with and without a box-sitting Virtual Action Figure posed for  ~Z225. All checker board surfaces use 3” squares. The center of the west pipe 42” west of the east wall and 7” from the south wall. Oddly placed shadows are due to use of an overhead lamp to improve visibility. The 3D model is under construction, and always will be. FIW
James

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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Prayer Woman
« Last post by Jeff Stanton on Today at 03:11:52 AM »
I was wanting to hear Thomas Graves entire input on this whole "Prayer Woman" issue, but I can see that he got himself banned, oh well, maybe another time and in some other venue...Hey Thomas Graves, what happened to you here at this JFK forum recently? Hey listen, if you're banned from here you could always join the JFK Ed Forum, for example... couldn't you?

Like Brian Doyle, you're multiple bannings and even in different JFK formats and venues does your reputation not one bit of good at all, now does it?

Even if you had something to say on the Prayer Woman matter, I wouldn't count on it one bit as it would be, like Brian Doyle, contrived bullocks from start to finish because you both start on the premise of the wrong idea <your idea> and ran with it.

Now, come on over to the winning side and just admit you were wrong? You and Doyle both?  Give the entire JFK reserach community a break from this canard you and Doyle call "evidence" you and Doyle insist upon feeding us against our will and good sense and just come clean already. You know "Prayer Woman" is a hoax is all you have to say to redeem yourselves, both of you. You Thomas Graves and you, Brian Doyle, repeat after me "Prayer-Woman was just a Hoax"......"Prayer-Woman was just a Hoax"......"Prayer-Woman was just a Hoax"   And move on peacably to something else more fruitful...what a time waster this whole Prayer Woman charade is....pffft...  Thumb1: :D
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"At the granular level"

Right, 1st time ever

 Thumb1:

Q. Are there any differences in the grain pattern in the areas of the body. head, and background on the negative of Oswald?
A. No inconsistencies could be detected between the areas mentioned with examination of the original negative through a 30X magnifier, on normal contrast enlarged prints, or on high contrast enlarged transparencies (figs. RIT 9--1 A and B).

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JohnM
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Why the first shot missed
« Last post by Denis Pointing on Today at 12:59:52 AM »
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Sorry, Charles. I haven't forgotten your request. My placement of the pipes is a visual guess. Obviously use at own risk.

I sent the Sixth Museum a request for measurements, and the curator, who's really helpful, told me just now that he will get back to me with true measurements when they access that area for maintenance. I'll PM those to you when I get them. Meanwhile you can use what I am using or build off it.

The westward pipe is a simple vertical. As I have it, the total height of the coupling is 3 1/4". I have the bottom of the coupling 8 13/16" above the floor (just make it 8 3/4" or 9", whatever). The coupling doesn't interfere with a hypothetical shooter; I put the coupling in there for the sake of completeness and haven't bothered with the bolts.

For the east pipe, I drew straight lines and angled them and placed them where I thought the center of the pipe ran. I then used SketchUp's "Follow-Me" tool to create the pipe by having a 2" circle follow the "path" of the lines. The Sketchup Tool decided I needed two elbows at each of the two bends. The closest any part of the first bend is to the floor is 13".

There is something wrong with my measurements. If the pipes are 2", then the planks have to be about 3". Or the planks are correct and the pipes needs to be a bit wider. Anyway, the key is how the westward pipe is relative to the window's masonry opening, which I think is fairly close now. That's the pipe that interferes.

Hi Jerry, builder here, so I may be able to help. Most floorboards, 'planks' as you call them, are 6" wide, those look like soil/main drain pipes, not water pipes so they're going to be 4" diameter. These measurements are confirmed by the bricks, ie 3no vertical courses are approximately 8". Nice work, mate.
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Prayer Woman
« Last post by Jeff Stanton on Today at 12:59:33 AM »
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For wonder of wander...to wander far as went...for as went to wonder...of wander for wonder...

Very nice, much edited, proclamation and all, but where are the facts?

No facts means, no case.

For very clear clarification, I refer the gentle reader to peruse any and all of the good John Iacoletti's posts refuting any and everything Brian Doyle utters on the subject of this thread. If you can find flaw in John Iacoletti's position on this entire subject, "Prayer-Woman" then I am all ears.

Big shout out to John Iacoletti who's always "keepin' em honest" lol  :D.. Thumb1:

Great work John.
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Prayer Woman
« Last post by Larry Trotter on Today at 12:18:28 AM »
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As a reminder:

The PrayerPersonImage identity issue, as I recall, developed in about 2013, some 50 years, one-half century, after the 11/22/'63 assassination of USP JohnKennedySr, and critical wounding of TxG JohnConnallyJr in Dallas' DealeyPlaza, just after their vehicle passing the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building Elm St entrance portal at 12:30pm CST. Although notably some photographs were made, most of the pictures of the portal area just as the shooting had occurred are most likely film stills taken from a moving MotorcadeVehicle/CameraCar, by a hand held motion picture imaging camera.

The PrayerPersonImage is in my conclusion, along with others as well, representing a female then employed at the TSBD Bldg who was, as most of the bldg employees, outside during lunchtime to view the passing motorcade.

The PrayerPersonImage identity had not previously been an issue, as it had no bearing on the evidence relative to the shootings and assassination. That was until someone came along and decided that PrayerPersonImage represented a male, and therefor decided to reference PrayerPersonImage as PrayerMan apparently, because PrayerPersonImage had not, at least to someone, been positively identified.

But, there is more, as since not otherwise identified, someone decided that their PrayerManImageTheory included deceased accused assassination shooter, LeeHarveyOswald, since he also was then employed at the TSBD Bldg and had also not yet been positively identified, in their opinion, anywhere else as filmed at about 12:30pm,CST. Remembering of course, that LeeHarveyOswald was himself shot and killed by JacobLeonRubenstein, aka JackRuby, while in police custody on the morning of 11/24/'63, just two days after the fatal shooting of PresidentKennedy and critical wounding shooting of GovernorConnally. And, LeeHarveyOswald was also the primary suspect in the shooting death of DPD Officer JdTippit in Dallas' OakCliff section, about 45 minutes after the DealeyPlaza shootings.

So, the LeeHarveyOswald/PrayerManTheory was born. However, since a SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter occurred with LeeHarveyOswald and TSBD BuildingSuperintendent RoyTruly along with DPD MotorcyclePatrolOfficer MarrionBaker at about 12:31pm/12:32pm CST 11/22/'63, a timing problem issue developed. OfficerBaker was a MotorcadeEscort, following several vehicles behind the Presidential Limousine, and he was approaching the TSBD Bldg just ahead of him as he rode along northbound on Houston St, when the shots were fired at the motorcade that had turned onto Elm St and was then westbound. When he reached Elm St, OfficerBaker parked his motorcycle and entered the TSBD Bldg to do a preliminary search, accompanied by RoyTruly. But, unable to locate a then viable suspect, and with other LawOfficers now searching the bldg, OfficerBaker rejoined the Motorcade that had gone to ParklandHospital. So, now for the LeeHarvey Oswald/PrayerManTheory to work, the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounterHoaxTheory was born, due to the timing of both situational events. However, the SecondFloor LunchRoomEncounter has reliable provable evidence that it occurred at about 90 to 120 seconds after the  shooting, and there is no reliable provable evidence indicative of it being a Hoax.

Now, with a history changing event like the LeeHarveyOswald/PrayerManTheory, stories can be told, and articles written, likely by professional story tellers and article writers. And possibly a book, or several books, can be written and then sold. Maybe even a movie or two can be made.

Testimony and sworn statements offer valid evidence that LeeHarveyOswald was not on the  landing or stairs as the filming took place. However, their own sworn statements and eyewitness testimony does place two otherwise unidentified known occupants, SarahStanton and PaulineSanders, on the landing/stairs at the time of the assassination/shooting. So, with questionable if any, Positive Image Identity produced by Image Viewing Alone, the said Eyewitness Testimony narrows the choices to SarahDeanStanton and PaulineRebmanSanders.

Notably, research has now developed evidence indicative of SarahStanton as being the person represented by Prayer PersonImage aka PrayerWomanImage. However, with the continued promotion of the unproven LeeHarveyOswald /PrayerManTheory, an ongoing effort for accuracy and true image identification continues the disputed evidence debate..


Although the LeeHarveyOswald/PrayerManTheory continues to be just that, a theory, said PrayerWomanImage identity conclusions are based on provable reliable indicative evidence.

For as it goes on...As for on it goes...
For wonder of wander...to wander far as went...for as went to wonder...of wander for wonder...
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Why the first shot missed
« Last post by Charles Collins on July 19, 2019, 11:05:03 PM »
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Sorry, Charles. I haven't forgotten your request. My placement of the pipes is a visual guess. Obviously use at own risk.

I sent the Sixth Museum a request for measurements, and the curator, who's really helpful, told me just now that he will get back to me with true measurements when they access that area for maintenance. I'll PM those to you when I get them. Meanwhile you can use what I am using or build off it.

The westward pipe is a simple vertical. As I have it, the total height of the coupling is 3 1/4". I have the bottom of the coupling 8 13/16" above the floor (just make it 8 3/4" or 9", whatever). The coupling doesn't interfere with a hypothetical shooter; I put the coupling in there for the sake of completeness and haven't bothered with the bolts.

For the east pipe, I drew straight lines and angled them and placed them where I thought the center of the pipe ran. I then used SketchUp's "Follow-Me" tool to create the pipe by having a 2" circle follow the "path" of the lines. The Sketchup Tool decided I needed two elbows at each of the two bends. The closest any part of the first bend is to the floor is 13".

There is something wrong with my measurements. If the pipes are 2", then the planks have to be about 3". Or the planks are correct and the pipes needs to be a bit wider. Anyway, the key is how the westward pipe is relative to the window's masonry opening, which I think is fairly close now. That's the pipe that interferes.

Thanks Jerry! Yes I have communicated several times with Stephen Fagin at the sixth floor museum and he has been very helpful each time. He is the one to contact regarding the oral history collection.
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Prayer Woman
« Last post by Larry Trotter on July 19, 2019, 10:57:22 PM »
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As I do not recall affording any EvidentiaryValue to the provided FacialFeatureEnhancement as indicated to be applied to PrayerPersonImage that has been often attributed to ChrisDavidson, perhaps BarryPollard can provide documented posting of my having done so.
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I'll save you some time John, this is part of the "research" that Larry liked and this is the "evidence" it produced.
It came from that Doyle abortion interview.
Larry still hasn't publically recognised the existance of the two stand out items I highlighted though and never will, just watch.
What kind of people is it that refuse to recognise the weak spot in their argument?  That will not spend one second on it, or even mention it once?  Are these good, honest, trustworthy people?  Is that our Larry?
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