JFK Assassination Forum

By the end of 1961 LTV was in debt to the tune of $112 million (roughly equivalent to $1.2 billion today).
It is a staggering amount of debt:

The days of growth and acquisition were over.
LTV had to decide what it's future was going to look like and dump everything that wasn't part of that future. It had to 'streamline' in order to get the colossal amount of debt under control.

This is the backdrop against which Byrd and Ling decided to by 132,000 shares. Crippling debt, dumping assets and "cost control programs".
The future did not look great. JFK was nailed on for another four years and, as someone looking to de-escalate war, could not have been worse news for LTV shares.

YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE MORE WRONG. Do you know nothing about the history of L-T-V? L-T-V in the 1960s was one of the all-time investor darlings and the poster-child for insane, out-of-control growth - and it had little to do with the A-7 Corsair contract (which, like many defense contracts, was indeed extremely profitable thanks in large part to Vietnam). In fact, August of 1963 was the first month that L-T-V stock had ever paid a cash dividend. October pf 1963 was when Chance Vought Corporation ceased to exist as a separate entity. Lots was going on at L-T-V in 1963.

This, from a stock publication, describes what you apparently think was a faltering, defense-oriented company that LBJ had to rescue:

"In 1960, Ling merged his company with Temco Aircraft, best known for their missile work, and using additional funding from insurance businessman Troy Post, they bought the famous Chance Vought aerospace firm. The new company became Ling-Temco-Vought, with a combined sales of $2.7 billion in 1969. With low interest rates allowing the company to borrow huge sums, Ling proceeded to build up one of the major 1960s conglomerates. As long as the target company's earnings exceeded the interest on the loan (or corporate bond), or the company's price/earnings ratio was less than that of LTV's stock, the conglomerate became more profitable overall. Given the fairly unsophisticated stock research of the era, the company appeared to be growing without bound, and its share prices rose. In 1964 Ling started a holding company and established three public companies, LTV Aerospace, LTV Ling Altec, and LTV Electrosystems, mirroring the original companies that formed LTV. This action raised capital, allowing Ling to raise more loans and buy more companies. In 1965, Ling added the wire and cable company Okonite. In 1967 they bought Wilson and Company, noted for their golfing equipment, but also involved in meat-packing and pharmaceuticals. He later spun each of these divisions into separate companies traded on the American Stock Exchange; they soon acquired the trader nicknames "Golfball," "Meatball," and "Goofball," respectively. 1968 added Greatamerica, Post's holding company for Braniff Airways and National Car Rental, and J & L Steel. In addition he acquired a series of resorts in Acapulco, Guerrero, Mexico, and Steamboat Springs, Colorado. By 1969 LTV had purchased 33 companies, employed 29,000 workers, and offered 15,000 separate products and services, and was one of the forty biggest industrial corporations."

Uh-huh, L-T-V was really on the ropes until LBJ bailed them out with that A-7 contract. The fact is, late 1963, when your "suspicious" 132,000 shares were acquired by Alpha-Omega, was precisely when L-T-V was starting to ride high and was engaging in all variety of reorganization-related stock activities and acquisitions. ONCE AGAIN, YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG: The reorganization wasn't undertaken because L-T-V was on the ropes but because Ling realized that this shell game with subsidiaries and shares could create the illusion of fantastic success. And the shell game worked until 1970, when it all came crashing down.

Concerning the A-7 contract, presumably you realize that Chance Vought had been a major defense contractor for decades and was a far larger company than Ling-Temco. The timing of the A-7 contract really doesn't fit a highly suspicious, assassination-related narrative: The basic need had been known, and Vought had been working on a design, since 1961. We'll let Wikipedia pick it up from there (citing an aviation history text): "On 17 May 1963, these criteria were formulated into a draft requirement, known as VAL (Heavier-than-air, Attack, Light). On 29 May 1963, the request for proposals (RFP) associated with the requirement was issued. To minimize costs, all proposals had to be based on existing designs. Accordingly, Vought, Douglas Aircraft, Grumman and North American Aviation chose to respond. The Vought proposal was based on their successful F-8 Crusader fighter and sharing a similar configuration; however, it had a shorter airframe with a rounded nose, giving the aircraft a "stubbier" appearance. All bids were received by September 1963 and the evaluation process was completed in early November of that year. On 8 February 1964, funding for VAL was approved by Congress, enabling the program to proceed; three days later, Vought's submission was selected as the winner. On 19 March 1964, Vought received a contract from the Navy for the manufacture of the initial batch of aircraft, designated A-7."

Despite the foregoing, CT sites repeatedly state that "LBJ awarded the contract" to L-T-V "before Congress had even approved the funding." Not exactly. Did any of the other bidders protest the award of the contract? No, they did not. Were defense contractors, and particularly the many Texas-based ones, delighted LBJ was President? Undoubtedly, but this is scarcely a rational basis for speculation they participated in the JFKA. Your speculation about the 132,000 shares is simply that - raw, unfounded, speculation of the sort that typifies Conspiracy Factoids.

As far as your "simple" JFKA theory goes, I find it neither simple nor plausible. You write as though it would practically be business-as-usual for LBJ and Byrd to concoct a plot to assassinate JFK, even though the penalty would be execution. Then just business-as-usual for Byrd to convince Cason, even though there is no evidence Cason ever benefitted from the plot. Then just-business-as-usual for Cason to convince Shelley, even though there is once again no evidence Shelley ever benefitted either. Your theory has this all being compartmentalized - I'm not sure how - but the fact is that if it went awry at the Shelley level, or the Cason level, LBJ and Byrd were going to be executed. You seriously think LBJ and Byrd would trust their LIVES to Cason and a cluck like Shelley??? Shelley then finds an appropriate sniper and places him on the sixth floor of the TSBD with all the insane risks that entails. Shelley then somehow arranges for Oswald's rifle to at least on the sixth floor, or perhaps even used for the assassination, with all the risks that entails. Shelley, whose only real role at noon on 11-22-63 is to control Oswald, then fails miserably at this task with all the risks that entails.

Simple? Plausible? I can't even type this without giggling. Can you really not see that what strikes you as simple and plausible is pretty much ... INSANE? If this is really your theory, then stop dealing in generalities and goofy speculation about L-T-V stock transactions and tell us EXACTLY how you think this POSSIBLY could have worked. As with every conspiracy theory, I think we will find that when you descend from the 30,000-foot level of what "coulda mighta happened" and try to describe what it actually would have looked like in the real world, the sillier this theory will look.

Dangerous accusations against an immigrant community
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article302170974.html

Adelys Ferro, executive director of the Venezuelan American Caucus, an advocacy group committed to supporting the Venezuelan community that works in alliance with the left-leaning Latino Victory Project, said there isn’t concrete evidence that that hundreds of Venezuelans in the United States are Tren de Aragua. “It is unacceptable, inhumane, and extremely dangerous for an entire community to be labeled as potential members of Tren de Aragua under a law where any accusation made against a Venezuelan citizen cannot be challenged in any court,” Ferro said. She said the vast majority of Venezuelans are not criminals nor came to commit any crimes. “Criminals must face the consequences of their actions, but the vast majority of Venezuelans are not criminals and deserve the right to defend themselves,” Ferro said. “It is essential that we ensure justice is served fairly, without unjustly targeting an entire community based on baseless accusations.” The Maduro regime issued a statement rejecting the U.S. actions as an “infamous and unjust” law that criminalizes Venezuelan migration, calling it an act that evokes the darkest chapters of human history.

“The Alien Enemies Act is an anachronistic law that not only violates fundamental laws but also undermines the international legal order on human rights, the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of Migrants,” the Venezuelan government statement read. “Venezuela rejects the persecution of our nationals, and we denounce that our compatriots in the U.S. are being subjected to persecution.”

Lindsay Toczylowski, co-founder & president/CEO of Immigrant Defenders Law Center, condemned the deportation of one of the group’s clients to El Salvador without any due process or evidence linking him to the gang Tren de Aragua, and then he disappeared. “Our client fled Venezuela last year seeking asylum in the United States. He has a strong claim. He was detained at entry because ICE alleged his tattoos are gang related. They are absolutely not,” Toczylowski said through X.

She said he is an LGBTQ arts worker in Venezuela and that his tattoos are harmless and personal. “But ICE submitted photographs of his tattoos, presenting them as proof of his alleged involvement with Tren de Aragua.” Toczylowski said: “Our client came to the U.S. seeking protection, but has spent months in ICE prisons, been falsely accused of being a gang member and today, he has been forcibly transferred — we believe to El Salvador. We are horrified by what might happen to him next.” She said the Trump administration’s use of the Alien Enemies Act could lead to deportations based on mere accusations, without evidence or due process. “The accusation could be, as it is for our client, completely baseless. But they would remove them anyway, despite the dangers, despite the lack of due process. What happened today is a dark moment in our history.”

Fantastic to see Trump rid the US of hundreds of violent illegal alien criminals despite the best efforts of the liberals to keep them in the US.  Good riddance.  I'm pretty sure they are not having a great time down in El Salvador given how they were taken away in chains.

Dan seems to have lost enthusiasm for his Byrd thread. Well, Factoid Busting does tend to have that effect.

I realize this isn't f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g to most - Factoid Busting does tend to be rather dull - but according to the SEC at the end of 1962 Ling-Temco-Vought had nearly 3,000,000 shares of common stock outstanding, with less than 8% owned by management. The paper I linked makes clear that 1963 was a time of massive reorganization by LTV, in which the number of shares was greatly reduced, numerous subsidiaries were created and numerous shares were exchanged in the process. Hence, the supposedly suspicious acquisition of the rather odd and comparatively insignificant number of 132,000 shares by Alpha-Omega in 1963 is surely attributable to this activity rather than to Ling and Byrd being tipped off that JFK would be assassinated (or even participating in the assassination themselves) and buying 132,000 shares in anticipation that LBJ's favors would cause the shares to explode in price (they were already fabulously rich and LTV was already awash in government contracts). This is yet another example of what entirely speculative Conspiracy Think looks like.

"Dan seems to have lost enthusiasm for his Byrd thread. Well, Factoid Busting does tend to have that effect"

Some of us have lives that need attending to.
Unlike you, I don't disappear from threads I start because, unlike you, I'm genuinely trying to understand this case.

As presented elsewhere, the credible evidence concerning who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination ALL points away from Oswald as being the shooter. As such, I do not accept that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. To be honest, it is enough to leave it at that. The last major governmental investigation into the assassination concluded Conspiracy but didn't feel the need to get into it.
But how can I be a Conspiracy Theorist if I don't propose some kind of theory that accounts for the evidence showing that Oswald didn't take the shots (because ignoring this evidence isn't an option for someone like me)?
The first question is -Who had motive?
One of the many failings of the Oswald-Did-It [ODI] theory is the lack of motive. In fact, Oswald would have been massively in favour of JFK's approach to many issues, especially civil rights. For Oswald, JFK would have been the least hateful man in the whole motorcade. John Connally or Lyndon Johnson would have been understandable targets for Oswald, not JFK.
In terms of motive it's LBJ all the way. No one comes in as a close second. Johnson displayed all the traits of a true psychopath including the torturing of animals when he was young. He had a psychotic desire for the ultimate power of presidency and accepted being VP because of the chance the president could be assassinated. But he was off the ticket for sure in '64 and his window of opportunity to grab the presidency was almost up. He was humiliated by the Kennedy's who despised him and he despised them in return.
But more than all that, he was literally on the cusp of charges for corruption and murder and knew his one and only way out was to grab the presidency.
The assassination of JFK had to happen as far as LBJ was concerned.

Just a quick note, Lance...I'm not proposing a cabal of oilmen, the CIA, the FBI, the Russians, the Cubans, the Mafia or any of that so you don't have to keep bringing up what other people are into. It has nothing to do with me.
You write that "the Texas oilmen theory is quite plausible". What I'm proposing is way more straight forward than that so you must agree about it being plausible.
You also make this point:

"Given what we do know about the events in Dealey Plaza, I have a difficult time seeing what any conspiracy scenario would actually have looked like and how it would have made any real-world sense."

I think the simplicity of what I'm proposing is eluding you.
A man firing a rifle at JFK from the SN.
That's it.
Only it's not Oswald taking the shots.
No teams of shooters all over Dealey Plaza or any of that.
What are you having a "difficult time seeing"?

So, let's speculate.
LBJ wants JFK dead asap.
He needs to make it happen or he is finished.
Let's keep this as simple as it is possible to be.
He discusses this with one person. No cabal. No secret group or organization.
This person is the man who owns the building from which the shots are taken - David Harold Byrd.
So, what's in it for Byrd?
Let's put aside Byrd's ultra far-right loathing of JFK, because the answer is far more obvious - untold millions of dollars.
The first defense contract that LBJ awards (from a budget that hasn't been agreed) is to Byrd's company LTV. The oil depletion allowance is left in tact also.
All LBJ has to do is get JFK to agree to come to Dallas. Other than that he has no connection with the assassination whatsoever.

This brings us to the purchase of 132,000 shares of Ling-Temco-Vought stock by Alpha-Omega.
It is my contention that Byrd's purchase of shares in LTV just before the assassination indicates foreknowledge, as does his decision to get out of the country for the first time ever.
It is your contention that the purchase of these shares is just part of an on-going restructuring of LTV and of no significance.
What is the background to the purchase of these shares?
The thesis you have linked to is an excellent piece of research that I must commend you on and it is something I've only had a chance to look over in a cursory way but I intend to delve into it more deeply when I get a chance.
Firstly, I agree that Mellon's assessment of LTV being on the verge of bankruptcy is way off the mark.
The history leading up to LTV's formation is as you state:

"1959 to 1961 was a time of unprecedented acquisition and growth for Ling Electronics. In 1959, Ling acquired Altec Companies. In 1960, Ling-Altec acquired Temco. In 1961, Ling-Temco acquired Chance Vought. After the latter acquisition, LTV management discovered that Vought had much more serious problems than had been known."

It's important to understand the "serious problems" that came with the acquisition of Chance Vought. This is from the thesis:

Soon after the Chance Vought merger however, Ling-TemcoVought discovered that as a result of contract cancellations, Chance Vought had "gone into a very ill-advised and random diversification effort". Even though at the time of the merger Ling-Temco knew Chance Vought had problems, they soon found out they had under estimated the size and magnitude of those problems. Chance Vought's random diversification effort had "resulted in operational and nonrecurring charges, never previously disclosed, of some $25 million" (4, p. 11) . As a result of the merger, LTV had $35 million in write-offs, a substantial amount of diversified activities that they wanted no part of, and had a "net worth of $13 million and long and short term debt of $112 million as of December 31, 1961."

By the end of 1961 LTV was in debt to the tune of $112 million (roughly equivalent to $1.2 billion today).
It is a staggering amount of debt:

"It was estimated by LTV's management that it would take the rest of their corporate productive lives to pay off the enormous debt, assuming a $3 million to $5 million range for annual earnings. It was then decided by LTV management that the next several years would be devoted to restructuring LTV, with little emphasis on acquisitions."

The days of growth and acquisition were over.
LTV had to decide what it's future was going to look like and dump everything that wasn't part of that future. It had to 'streamline' in order to get the colossal amount of debt under control.

"LTV sold four divisions or subsidiaries for approximately $28 million in cash and securities (2, p. 1-4). Once these dispositions were complete, LTV streamlined its organizational structure from twenty divisions to eleven divisions operating in three technological fields--commercial electronics, military electronics, and aerospace products. In addition, LTV initiated a high degree of centralized management control and cost control programs."


This is the backdrop against which Byrd and Ling decided to by 132,000 shares. Crippling debt, dumping assets and "cost control programs".
The future did not look great. JFK was nailed on for another four years and, as someone looking to de-escalate war, could not have been worse news for LTV shares.

I look forward to getting into the detail of this thesis but the idea that the substantial purchase of shares which had no potential value was part of 'business as usual' can be dispensed with.
The idea Byrd was aware that things were about to take a turn for the better seems more plausible.

CORRECTION:
According to the 1976 Senate Select Committee investigating the investigation of the JFK assassination, the words of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, stating his concern that something be issued to convince the public that Oswald killed the president, came from a recorded phone conversation between Hoover and White House Aide Walter Jenkins, on November 24, immediately following Oswald's murder by Jack Ruby...
The thing I am most concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzen-
bach, is having something issued so we can convince the
public that Oswald is the real assassin.[/size]