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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Mary Hollies
« Last post by Alan J. Ford on Today at 06:20:35 PM »
You can always tell when Doyle is bluffing, because his word salad gets longer and longer.

Appreciate your keen sense of discernment there, Mr. Iacoletti, thanks for sharing his revealing tell with the rest of us.

If & when you avoid cowering away, Mr. Doyle, just understand the following ---->

*Only one "witness" says he saw Roy Truly near the backstairs during the immediate aftermath of the assassination (you know the one who also didn't identify a uniformed-dressed white helmeted motorcycle officer in looooong black boots with him)

*Five TSBD employees, during their descent down the backstairs, did Not see Roy Truly & Marrion Baker together; and, even more telling, four Dallas County Sheriffs also did Not see Roy Truly & Marrion Baker together on those backstairs as they themselves ascended those stairs during the immediate aftermath of the assassination.

*All nine of these people weren't deaf and/or blind.

*Roy Truly & Marrion Baker weren't capable of going into magical invisible mode to go undetected IF they really were together during that critical time-interval, so spare us any horse manure masquerading as "evidence" to the contrary.

*In fairness to you...be wary in your responses, I'm holding an Ace card in respect to the lone single "witness" who places Roy Truly near the backstairs during the aftermath of the assassination. Suffice it to say, even beyond his refutation of Roy Truly being with a uniformed dressed motorcycle officer donning a white helmet and looong black boots, he also calls into question...

C'mon, Mr. Doyle, don't cower away now (after all you said you are winning, right?) Winners never quit and cower, Mr. Doyle.
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Have you checked if those VC and serial numbers are actually in the master control book?

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.
Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
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Of course. And Day just let the matter drop, because thatís what crime lab officers do when they are instructed to turn over ALL the evidence they have to the FBI.

Shouldn't you, of all people, be cheering Day on for not doing what he was told to do?  ;)
4

Not submitted just means that it was not submitted to the Crime Lab. Submitting an item to the Crime Lab was not an absolute requirement. Lots of items were never submitted. The shell was accounted for.


Please explain the purpose of submitting evidence and why the third shell didn't deserve to be submitted.

Thanks.
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: Mary Hollies
« Last post by Alan J. Ford on Today at 05:14:53 PM »
Ford Wrote:


You're lying and trolling Alan...

Oh Dear...

You are flagrantly lying and contemptuously ignoring that Garner and Williams are those witnesses...

Wrong. You are simply failing to comprehend the obvious understanding of the word together. In both instances neither Mrs. Garner or Mr. Williams reports the lying rooftop tandem being actually together. You continue to fail to understand the significance of this, Mr. Doyle? Why?

Is it because you like making Assumptions, Mr. Doyle? Is that why your contrived self-serving "evidence" continues to fail much closer examination?


You are also trollishly ignoring that the necessary timing in your own evidence necessitates Williams seeing Baker at a time that retroactively forces Baker to have passed by Mrs Garner at the time that she saw Truly...That means the cop who was with Truly is proven to be Baker...

You are failing miserably, Mr. Doyle, to show those of us reading along where Mr. Williams actually saw the tandem together; and, where Mrs. Garner ever evoked Marrion Baker's name specifically as a party with Roy Truly at any time during the several times she saw Roy Truly that afternoon.

Baker on the 5th floor at a time that requires him to have been at the 2nd floor at the time of the Lunch Room encounter...

Yet another Assumption, Mr. Doyle....Spare us the horse manure masquerading as "evidence" about a phantom 2nd floor encounter in the lunchroom. It's merely a hastily contrived script, nothing more, nothing less.

Alan goes back on ignore because I have obviously won this one...

Oh, Dear...


Brb Fido is nudging me with his wet nose signaling he wants to go out to answer nature's call.
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General Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK vs Trump
« Last post by Jerry Organ on Today at 04:47:00 PM »
Europe was losing the war before America got involved.

Hardly "losing". More like stalemated.
  • WWI: Trench-warfare. Last German advance halted April 1918 before large-scale arrival of US troops.
  • WWII: Cross-channel invasion impetus lost 1940, focus on Russia who then tied up 2/3rds of the
    Wehrmacht long before D-Day. Germany and Italy in retreat by 1943.
If stalemate equates "losing", then the US lost the relatively minor conflicts in Korea and Vietnam, and is losing the campaign in Afghanistan.
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I like you too Mr. Barber.  :)

Kind Regards,
Christer
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The most important question that needs to be answered is: how and where could Victoria Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady?

We know for a fact that, after the shots, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles left the building by way of the stairs in the North West corner and the loading dock at the back of the building.

We also know for a fact that Shelley and Lovelady were at the front of the building when the shots rang out.

We have photographic evidence placing Victoria Adams at the front of the building confirming her testimony that she re-entered the building through the main entrance. She took the stairs to the second floor and walked through the office space to the North West corner where she took a freight elevator to the 4th floor. In other words, she never returned to the first floor

Shelley and Lovelady both confirm in their testimony that they entered the building through one of the loading doors on the first floor of the building.

The only time and place that Adams and Styles might have crossed paths with Shelley and Lovelady is in or near the parking lot West of the TSBD building!

Based on this information, how and where could Victoria Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady inside the building?
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Let's try and put it all together. For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"

12.30.00 Last shot

12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
              Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
             
              Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
              They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go towards the railroad yard
              Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building

Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?


Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.


Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.     
       

12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door       
              Truly and Baker pass the elevator block on the first floor and run towards the stairs, just missing the women

This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.

12:31.10 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
              Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs

12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
         
12.33.00 Adams and Styles are stopped by a police officer who tells them to go back to the building.
              The women walk along side the railway track to the front of the building.
              Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location

Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

           
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.


Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.


12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD.

12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the front entrance of the building

12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building.
              Adams and Styles enter the TSBD through the front entrance and take the stairs to the 2nd floor,
              Adams walks through the office space to the North West corner and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor.
             
              Shelley and Lovelady enter the building at the back and Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.


             Shelley only saw Eddie Piper

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.


12.37.00 Harkness seals off the building

The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

I challenge anybody to come up with a similar timeline that starts with Adams and Styles leaving the 4th floor 4 to 5 minutes after the shots and still incorporates all the available information correctly.

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Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

 :D :D :D D'OH

Getting your story straight is one thing. Answering questions you've not even been asked is quite another.

We've worked out Adams timeline, what about Shelley and Lovelady?

An interesting proposal Dan. Did they see the officer heading west from the front of the TSBD toward the car park (Officer Smith from memory). They moved to the west end of the TSBD annex and entered through the door there back into the south western part of the first floor. (Hence the mention of Piper). Not a particularly long journey. I believe an early statement had Shelley going inside to call his wife on the phone. I wonder who those two white guys were that Baker recalled seeing on his way through the first floor?
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