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21
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Dan O'meara on March 28, 2024, 01:26:45 AM »
Just a whole lot of nothing again. All just your opinion and conjecture. Everyone is lying. Not one person telling the truth but you. You and only you know what the truth is.

Since I started looking into the Lost Interview with Vicki Adams the only people who have been shown, beyond reasonable doubt, to be lying are William Shelley, Billy Lovelady and you.
In your 'theory' (::)), which is based on nothing but your bizarre identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles bumped into, you have Adams, Styles, Garner, Baker and Truly as liars. The Dillard picture is a lie and the Stroud document is wrong.
All because you insist it is Harkness that Adams and Styles bump into.

Now, maybe I'm underestimating you - maybe you do have good evidence that this officer is Harkness.
What is your evidence that this officer is Harkness? (don't bother trying to duck this question)

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Maybe a recap is in order. You presented two photos as proof of something only, there was no proof of anything in the photos other than an overactive imagination. Shelley and Lovelady, to fit into this storyline are sprinting all over the place. Not because it makes any sense at all, but because that is the only way they can fit into this strange storyline.

Here are the known facts;

DO:  “Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm”

DO:  “Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.”

Styles reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.

Detective Sawyer states the front door was locked down by 13:37. Styles reenters the building by the front door and Adams tries to reenter a few minutes later and is stopped.


You forgot the bit where you made up the Harkness identification.
You forgot the bit where the officer in question was stood about 50ft away from the door he was supposed to be guarding.
You forgot the bit where this officer was around the corner of the building and couldn't even see the door he was supposed to be guarding.
You forgot the bit where Adams and Styles completely ignored his orders and wandered off in the opposite direction.
You really are very forgetful.

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From where the encounter with the officer took place at the back of the building and the subsequent walk back to the front door is approximately 250 feet.

It is just math. No need to be afraid. 

At 4mph = 352 feet per minute

At 3mph = 264 feet per minute

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Styles walks into the front door and Adams is locked out.

Meaningless drivel
 
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In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most".

Not according to Barnett who saw no-one behind the building.

As usual you are completely wrong. He saw at least one other officer around the back.
It's interesting that in the Lost Interview, Vicki mentions seeing a cop stood on Houston street looking elsewhere. It would appear she saw Barnett but he didn't see her.

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Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.

Basic is right. No, it is really 100x110 feet, N and S is longer.

There is a scale on the drawings

From the Texas State Historical Association website:

TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY.The Texas School Book Depository, the building identified by the Warren Commission's report on the Kennedy assassination as the location from which Lee Harvey Oswald shot the president, is at 411 Elm Street in downtown Dallas and is now the Dallas County Administration Building. The building has seven floors and a basement and forms a 100 by 100 foot square with 80,000 square feet of space.


Do some research.

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I should have just measured it myself the first time. Given what has gone on in this thread I am guessing the 80 x80 is probably one of your old, uninformed posts.

??
It's you who came up with the 80 x 80 nonsense.
Don't you remember?
It was only a couple of posts ago.
Is your memory really that bad.
At least you referred your own nonsense as "uninformed". That's the only accurate thing you've posted on this thread and it describes you perfectly.

 
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Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them.

So is Styles. You are honestly insinuating that the officers were walking in a group?

 
And now you believe Adams and Styles are lying too?

Adams and Styles did not leave as quickly as they thought. The officer time stamps prove that. Seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevator 5 minutes after the last shot prove that.

??
It's you who is saying the officers are together, not me!
Don't you remember?
It was only a couple of posts ago.
Is your memory really that bad?
Are you having a deja vu moment?

At no point in any of your posts have you taken on a single argument I've made other than to just babble your nothing opinion.
I've presented a massive amount of evidence and arguments emanating from that evidence to demonstrate that Adams was telling the truth and that Shelley and Lovelady were lying.
You have offered nothing in the way of a coherent, reasoned response.
You can't explain why Adams and Styles aren't in the window of the Dillard picture.
You can't explain the Stroud document.
You can't explain how the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady completely contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials.
You can't explain why Oswald included Shelley in his alibi.
You lie about Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett making statements that refute Adams constant assertion that she left the fourth floor within seconds, supported by Styles and Garner.
And you can only offer the useless identification of Harkness as the officer Adams and Styles encountered based on nothing more than your own limited imagination. That's all you've got.
Do some research. Come up with some actual evidence.



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   The above "Chapter Notes" says Nothing about Murray taking photos back inside the train yard within 5 Minutes following the Kill Shot. (Officer Haygood's 5 minute window). I guess you do Not have ready access to Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain" and the relevant portions that pertain to Murray. I do have the book and it does contribute to my confidence regarding my groundbreaking discovery that the "No Glove Cop as filmed by Darnell/Martin is Not Officer Haygood.
   I can/will help you. "Pictures Of The Pain" page 491- "Murray noted that the parking spaces on the main streets were off-limits due to the motorcade route. He found a space by the rear loading dock of the TSBD, parking probably illegally......."  Page 493 - "Murray estimates that it took him about 3 MINUTES after hearing the 3 reports to get to his car and and prepare his cameras". Page 493- "With the 2 cameras around his neck, he quickly moved to the Elm and Houston street corner near the Book Depository front entrance.  "In 3 of Murray's first 4 pictures, his camera jammed...."  "The frames were completely over-exposed". " Murray's next frame shows another blank, and it was at this point that he switched lenses to a 35mm wide angle lens".... "I sort of worked my way off that corner, down toward the site of the grassy knoll..........." Page 494 - "Moving westerly along the DIRT Elm Street Extension road into the railroad parking area, Murray squeezed off 2 pictures..............".      To recap, Murray consumed 3 minutes just getting to his car and retrieving his cameras from the trunk. From his car parked behind the loading dock, he then went to Elm St and consumed time taking 4 photos.  After doing all of this, he then traveled down the DIRT section of the Elm St Ext and took pics in the train yard. Murray took 3 minutes alone to just get to his car and get his cameras out of the trunk. At this point, he only has 2 minutes remaining on Officer Haygood's 5 Minute Window. The Murray Tick/Tock detailed inside "Pictures Of The Pain" reveals his train yard photos to have been snapped More than 5 minutes following the Kill Shot. My discovery that the "No Glove Cop" as filmed by Darnell/Martin is Not Officer Haygood stands!


…I guess you do Not have ready access to Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain" and the relevant portions that pertain to Murray. I do have the book…


I have the book “Pictures of the Pain.” That is how I was able to take a photo of the Chapter notes and post it in this thread.


The Murray Tick/Tock detailed inside "Pictures Of The Pain" reveals his train yard photos to have been snapped More than 5 minutes following the Kill Shot.

Actually the photos conclusively show that you are wrong. The chapter notes and the detailed description of Murray’s actions clearly show that Trask had numerous communications directly with Murray, that Trask had access to original rolls of film (in which the photos are numbered sequentially) and similarly numbered contact sheets, and that the Murray photos in Trask’s book are in chronological order (the order in which they were taken). Take a look at the third photo with a caption below it that says: “Witnesses Amos Euins and Hugh Betzner are among those wandering around the parking lot area.” In that photo Amos Euins is clearly not being escorted by Harkness. Harkness’ radio message concerning his taking Euins to the front entrance area of the TSBD and depositing him in Sawyer’s car was around 12:36 (if I remember correctly). Therefore the Murray photo had to have been taken well before 12:36 (or else Euins wouldn’t be wandering around unescorted). Now, take a look at the Murray photo which was taken before the one with Euins in it. It is on the same page just above the one with Euins. There is a caption below it that says: “As one cop loos over the area from the top of a railroad car, other people walk among the parked cars.” This is the photo that clearly shows a cop (who is believed to be Haywood) with a white helmet walking near the tree on the left side of the photo. This photo was taken before the one with Euins in it, therefore it also would have to have been well before 12:36. Murray then made another photo looking east back up the Elm Street Extension. After the three photos taken in the parking/railroad yard area, Murray moved southwestward and took another photo of the crowd around Haywood’s motorcycle with Haywood’s helmet clearly showing. James Hackerott expertly timed this photo via the “shadow clock” as being taken at about 12:36. On top of all of Trask’s documentation of Murray’s actions, there is a close-up profile photo of Haywood in the railroad yard that was taken by Jay Skaggs (which I posted earlier in this thread). The Sixth Floor Museum (which has the Skaggs originals in it’s collection) identified this to be Haywood. Therefore, contrary to your opinion and totally unsupported theory of his route, Haywood DID go into the railroad yard.
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Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.

This is apparently your opinion. Trask’s information based on documentation in “Pictures of the Pain” indicate that your opinion is clearly wrong. Here are Trask’s chapter notes (references) at the end of his chapter on Murray and his photos.



I don’t know about anyone else, but I prefer to believe Trask has it right. James Hackerott’s work with the shadow-clock also supports Trask’s information.

   The above "Chapter Notes" says Nothing about Murray taking photos back inside the train yard within 5 Minutes following the Kill Shot. (Officer Haygood's 5 minute window). I guess you do Not have ready access to Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain" and the relevant portions that pertain to Murray. I do have the book and it does contribute to my confidence regarding my groundbreaking discovery that the "No Glove Cop" as filmed by Darnell/Martin is Not Officer Haygood.
   I can/will help you. "Pictures Of The Pain" page 491- "Murray noted that the parking spaces on the main streets were off-limits due to the motorcade route. He found a space by the rear loading dock of the TSBD, parking probably illegally......."  Page 493 - "Murray estimates that it took him about 3 MINUTES after hearing the 3 reports to get to his car and and prepare his cameras". Page 493- "With the 2 cameras around his neck, he quickly moved to the Elm and Houston street corner near the Book Depository front entrance.  "In 3 of Murray's first 4 pictures, his camera jammed...."  "The frames were completely over-exposed". " Murray's next frame shows another blank, and it was at this point that he switched lenses to a 35mm wide angle lens".... "I sort of worked my way off that corner, down toward the site of the grassy knoll..........." Page 494 - "Moving westerly along the DIRT Elm Street Extension road into the railroad parking area, Murray squeezed off 2 pictures..............".      To recap, Murray consumed 3 minutes just getting to his car and retrieving his cameras from the trunk. From his car parked behind the loading dock, he then went to Elm St and consumed time taking 4 photos.  After doing all of this, he then traveled down the DIRT section of the Elm St Ext and took pics in the train yard. Murray took 3 minutes alone to just get to his car and get his cameras out of the trunk. At this point, he only has 2 minutes remaining on Officer Haygood's 5 Minute Window. The Murray Tick/Tock detailed inside "Pictures Of The Pain" reveals his train yard photos to have been snapped More than 5 minutes following the Kill Shot. My discovery that the "No Glove Cop" as filmed by Darnell/Martin is Not Officer Haygood stands! 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Jack Nessan on March 27, 2024, 08:24:19 PM »
I thought there might be some way in engaging him in some kind of reasoned debate but it's turned out to be more like helping a doddering old man across the road.
His latest post is a continuation of his toothless dribbling.
I don't know what I was thinking.  ::)

Obviously, the problem is you don't think, or you would not be posting this fantasy Adams -Styles tripe as if you have accomplished some great service to the understanding of the JFK assassination. In the end it is just simple math.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Dan O'meara on March 27, 2024, 08:18:23 PM »
Thumb1:

You've reached the same conclusion as I did, some time ago.

I'm just not sure if Nessan is confusing matters on purpose or if he truly doesn't (want to) understand what he is being told, but either way, it's a waste of time to talk to him.

You will never get him to understand or accept that it wasn't and couldn't have been Harkness or one of the men with him who encountered Adams and Styles, because it simply does not fit with the known facts.

I thought there might be some way in engaging him in some kind of reasoned debate but it's turned out to be more like helping a doddering old man across the road.
His latest post is a continuation of his toothless dribbling.
I don't know what I was thinking.  ::)
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so another witness added to the very long LN list of those accused of seeking to profit from jfks death .but yet this book came out 58 years after the assassination .i guess he was in no hurry to profit .

If you are commenting on Frazier’s more recent revelations, and his motivations (as perceived by others), then the quote from my post you selected has nothing to do with Frazier. It is simply my interpretation of what I perceive is happening when the photo was made. None of that has anything to do with Frazier. To respond to what I think you are referring to, I am going by memory, but I seem to remember Frazier saying someone else finally convinced him to write the book. It might have been his son (if he has one). So, maybe the motivation involved potential inheritances? Anyway, I think Frazier’s chances of selling his book increased with every new revelation he came up with. If Frazier didn’t already know that, then someone probably told him so.
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Just guessing (of course) by the appearances, but I think she is pointing toward Brennan and telling the guy in the white hat (who I will assume is a cop who appears to be looking at her) that Brennan saw the shooter.

so another witness added to the very long LN list of those accused of seeking to profit from jfks death .but yet this book came out 58 years after the assassination .i guess he was in no hurry to profit .

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Frazier's claim is an odd story but I doubt Frazier is telling it to sell his book.  I can't imagine anyone bought the book for that reason.  Frazier is definitive in his WC testimony that the last time he saw Oswald that day was between 10 and 12.  But maybe he thought the question was directed to Oswald's movements before the assassination.  Otherwise it is difficult to reconcile his two stories.   Maybe someone should ask him.  Frazier does appear to entertain the possibility that Oswald is innocent.  At the 6th floor museum event, he mentioned that Oswald often played on the lawn with the neighborhood kids.  And because of that, Frazier concluded that he didn't think Oswald was capable of the crime because kids have some intuitive sense of people in his opinion.  It was pretty silly but I'm guessing he hopes that Oswald is innocent so as not to bear any sense of historical association between himself and the crime.  Arguably, there might be some cause for him to have been a little suspicious of Oswald taking an unexpected trip to the Paine home and carrying a long narrow package to work on the morning that the president was due to drive by the building.  I also have some difficulty believing that there was no discussion that morning between Frazier and Oswald of the pending presidential visits.  That would have been the biggest news story of the day and the motorcade would be passing their place of work.  I think Frazier may have downplayed any suggestion that he should have been a little more observant that morning once he understood that he had driven the assassin and his weapon to the building.  He put on the Gomer Pyle act and claimed he didn't take much notice of anything and knew "nothing" like Sgt. Schultz.



Yes, I think that Frazier’s sworn testimony cannot be reconciled with his more recent claims. In Trask’s book, he states that the location of Jim Murray’s parked car was on Houston Street near the TSBD loading dock. Murray ran to his car immediately following the shots. And he got his cameras, and after reloading one of them, he went directly to the area in front of the front door of the TSBD and began taking photos (including the one this thread concerns). So, I think that if LHO (or anyone else for that matter) had exited from the loading dock part of the TSBD that Murray would have been in a good position to observe it. As far as I know, Murray has never indicated that he saw anyone exit the loading dock area of the TSBD.
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there is no evidence that i am aware of that comes near to proving that Oswald walked out the front door 3 minutes after the shooting . in fact the only witness to ever say they saw Oswald leave (wes frazier ) said he saw oswald cross north houston street having left via the loading dock area , or in other words at the rear of the building . frazier said he was wearing a jacket . he told this to gary mack , all be it quite a few years after the fact .

If there is any validity to Pierce Allman's purported encounter with Lee Harvey Oswald at the front door entrance to the Texas School Book Depository approximately three minutes after the shooting, then there could be evidence, although not testimonial.

A young reporter's chance encounter with JFK's assassin:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-reporters-chance-encounter-with-jfks-assassin/
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Frazier’s claims in more recent years completely contradict what he testified to under oath. I guess the statute of limitations for perjury had already run out by then. Plus Frazier needed a “hook” to sell his book…

Frazier's claim is an odd story but I doubt Frazier is telling it to sell his book.  I can't imagine anyone bought the book for that reason.  Frazier is definitive in his WC testimony that the last time he saw Oswald that day was between 10 and 12.  But maybe he thought the question was directed to Oswald's movements before the assassination.  Otherwise it is difficult to reconcile his two stories.   Maybe someone should ask him.  Frazier does appear to entertain the possibility that Oswald is innocent.  At the 6th floor museum event, he mentioned that Oswald often played on the lawn with the neighborhood kids.  And because of that, Frazier concluded that he didn't think Oswald was capable of the crime because kids have some intuitive sense of people in his opinion.  It was pretty silly but I'm guessing he hopes that Oswald is innocent so as not to bear any sense of historical association between himself and the crime.  Arguably, there might be some cause for him to have been a little suspicious of Oswald taking an unexpected trip to the Paine home and carrying a long narrow package to work on the morning that the president was due to drive by the building.  I also have some difficulty believing that there was no discussion that morning between Frazier and Oswald of the pending presidential visits.  That would have been the biggest news story of the day and the motorcade would be passing their place of work.  I think Frazier may have downplayed any suggestion that he should have been a little more observant that morning once he understood that he had driven the assassin and his weapon to the building.  He put on the Gomer Pyle act and claimed he didn't take much notice of anything and knew "nothing" like Sgt. Schultz. 
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