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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Dan O'meara on February 28, 2024, 07:28:42 PM »
Let's take Vicki's words at face value - that she raced downstairs seconds after the shooting (as she constantly maintains) and that she passed by Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor:

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."


Can we determine how quickly she took off from the fourth floor?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.



Below is a photo taken by Tom Dillard. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".



When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. As we know, Adams, Styles and Garner left office after the shooting. It appears they have left by the time this pic was taken.




The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):

"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."


Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. The limo has barely got out of the Triple Underpass

The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot. This decision was made before the limo even reached the Underpass.

"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."

How long would it take a young women running full tilt in high heels to get down 3 flights of stairs - 30 seconds? 40 seconds?
Let's say her estimate of reaching the first floor one minute after the shooting is conservative, the question remains, what were Lovelady and Shelley doing there?
It must be noted, this mention of Lovelady and Shelley did not first come about during Adams' WC testimony:

 "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository..."
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive)[Speer]


What is the importance of Shelley and Lovelady lying about their movements after the assassination?
Weren't these just two innocent bystanders watching the parade?
What compelled them to race towards the back of the first floor?
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Richard Smith on February 28, 2024, 07:13:54 PM »
Forty pages of contrarian gibberish trying to interpret words and recollections after the fact down to seconds.  Words like "immediate" can mean different things to different people.  Particularly when dealing in increments of time down to seconds. No one needs to sort this out to the subjective satisfaction of loons or invent a time machine to demonstrate that Oswald could have made his way from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor unnoticed.  Logic dictates that if the evidence proves Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 when the shots were fired AND that he is on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later, that means beyond all doubt that he could move between those points without being seen by Adams.  Once a thing has happened, the odds against it happening are no longer relevant no matter how improbable.  It would be like trying to prove that no one can win the lottery because the odds are so long against it while standing in the presence of the person holding the winning ticket.  We know it could happen because it did.  The evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor (his rifle, prints and absence of any alibi) at the moment the shots were fired (i.e. 12:30) and Truly and Baker place him on the 2nd floor a couple of minutes later.  We also know that the stairs are the only way he could have gotten between those two points in that timeframe and that no one saw him do so.  That is the end of the story. 

There is no need to interpret the testimony of anyone on this point.   The circumstances prove it beyond any doubt.  Endless subjective nitpicking of testimony and interpretations of words used by witnesses to support some desired outcome is working backward to the facts.  Here is an example.  If I can prove that Roger Collins was in Paris this morning, and then in NYC this afternoon, the proof of those two facts means beyond any doubt that he took an airplane to get there.  I don't have to separately prove that he did so.   Even if no passenger on a transatlantic flight could remember him being on a plane that day, that does not create doubt.  We know it happened because it is the only way to explain his presence at those two locations within the known timeframe.  Not only is it possible that he took a plane, but the facts and circumstances prove that he HAD to have done so. 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Martin Weidmann on February 28, 2024, 05:49:29 PM »
From Billy Lovelady's affidavit a couple of hours after the assassination:

"When the President came by Bill Shelly and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots.There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together...After it was over we went back into the building..."

This is Lovelady's first statement regarding his movements around the time of the shooting. There is absolutely no indication that he left the steps at any time, no mention of making his way down the Elm Street extension with Shelley, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on and no mention of re-entering the TSBD building by the west door. Any reasonable reading of his affidavit has him stood on the steps,he hears the shots, then both he and Shelley go back into the building through the front door (he says "we went back into the building").

This is from Bill Shelley's affidavit:

"I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the president in the parade.The president's car was about half way from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."

Once again, no mention of making his way along the Elm Street extension, no mention of hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on and no mention of re-entering the TSBD building through the west door. A reasonable reading of his affidavit has Shelley running across the street after the shooting, running into Gloria Calvary, running back to the front steps and re-entering the building through the front door.
Both men go on to relate what they did once inside the building in their affidavits but isn't it strange that both men failed to mention the exact same movements? It's as if they went back inside the TSBD building almost immediately after shots. It's as if they never went along the Elm Street extension and waited around watching the goings-on at the railroad yard.

This is from Pat Speer's website and is from an oral history interview with John Templin:

(7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he'd discussed the assassination with other witnesses) "I also met Bill Shelley. I don’t know if you’ve met Bill or are familiar with Bill Shelly, but he was an employee down here at The Sixth Floor...(When asked if Shelley said he was outside when the shots were fired) "I believe Bill... I believe Bill was maybe on the front steps. Yeah, there were a lot of the employees out there. As best as I recall, that’s where he said he was. Then of course, when it happened, he rushed back inside the building."

He "rushed back inside the building"?
Both Lovelady and Shelley tell exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies - that Baker and Truly were still outside the TSBD steps 3 minutes after the shooting.
Why would they tell this lie? A lie exposed by the Darnell footage.
Because it keeps them away from the elevators seconds after the shooting. That's the only reason I can think of.
But Vicki Adams sees them there.
What are they doing there?
Why rush to the elevators seconds after the shooting then lie about it?

As we have seen, in his affidavit given on the day of the shooting, Shelley states that he ran across the street, encountered Gloria Calvary, came back to the TSBD building and went back inside.
Lovelady states that he was on the steps, heard the shots and went back inside the building. Later that day Lovelady gives a statement to the FBI:

"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELLY started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and SHELLY then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."

So now Lovelady does leave the steps!  Except he's not heading to the railroad yard - he and Shelley immediately race towards where the limo was on Elm Street but it speeds away before they get there.
This is complete horsesh%t on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin. The notion of them seeing the limo speeding away is bizarre. Needless to say, Shelley never mentions anything of the sort.
Next we have Shelley's FBI statement given on March 18, '64:

"Immediately following the shooting Billy N Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

"Accompanied some uniformed officers"?
More horsesh%t. Lovelady never mentions this and Shelley never mentions it again. Shelley has conveniently forgotten that he raced back inside the building to call his wife and when it comes to his WC testimony he will have conveniently forgotten all about the police officers he accompanied along the Elm Street extension. He has also forgotten his encounter with Gloria. This is the first time the west door is mentioned and a handy time-frame of ten minutes is introduced before they re-entered the TSBD building. If this was the case Adams would never even have made it outside as the building would have been locked down ten minutes after the shooting!
The next day, the 19th, Lovelady is still peddling his nonsense about running to the spot where the limo was:

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."


Here we have the two men hanging around the spot where the limo stopped for five minutes before they re-enter the building. If this was the case Adams would never have made it back inside as the building would have been locked down by the time she reached the front door. In fact, there is only one realistic scenario provided where Adams can see Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor near the elevators and still make it back inside in before the building is locked down - if Lovelady and Shelley re-enter the building immediately after the shooting.

As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies - that it was 3 minutes before Gloria Clavary came up to the steps and that they saw Truly and Baker outside the TSBD building steps after this. Then there are a few more minutes spent moving down towards the railroad tracks, watching what was going on, making their way back into the building and making their way to the elevators. According to their made up timelines it would have been about six minutes after the shooting before Adams saw them on the first floor (something clearly not supported by Adams, Styles, Garner, Baker, Truly, the Stroud document and the Dilliard pic).

This would not be enough time for Adams to have made her way around the back of the building, been stopped by a police officer, have some kind of interaction with him, make her way around the west side of the building to the Elm Street extension, have a conversation with Avery and hear the 12:38pm broadcast involving the second floor.


As already stated, both men offer up exactly the same lie in their WC testimonies

Interesting and certainly food for thought. Having said that, I'm struggling to understand what possible reason Shelley and Lovelady would have to lie.

Also, if they did lie, why would Lovelady be so hesitant to identify Vickie Adams as the woman he saw?
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I don’t know much about VGE. But I would suggest that he fantasized that Ford told him that. And that perhaps he also had a “thing” for Diana…


Giscard d'Estaing wrote his second romantic novel, published on 1 October 2009 in France, titled The Princess and the President.[62] It tells the story of a French leader having a romantic affair with a character called Patricia, Princess of Cardiff.[62] This caused many rumours that the book was based on a real-life affair between Giscard d'Estaing and Diana, Princess of Wales.[62] He later said that such an affair never happened and that the book was fictional.[63]


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9ry_Giscard_d%27Estaing

But I would suggest that he fantasized that Ford told him that.

And that suggestion would be based on what, exactly?

Wishful thinking, perhaps?
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Cite what? No, there is nothing new here. You are well aware of what these witnesses stated. Ignoring the key parts of the witness statements and pretend they did not say them. Doing it with Mary Woodwards as well as Nellies, Jackies, and JBC’s. All in an attempt to promote this bizarre theory. For the umpteenth time you expect to have your hand held and be walked through it.
It would take fewer typing strokes to just provide a cite to where JBC and/or Nellie said that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot.... But I can understand the difficulty in doing that.  Either admit that there is no such source and save us time of responding to your posts, or provide the source.

For the purposes of this discussion, my "theory" is simply that JBC was hit in the back by the second shot. How is that bizarre?  You may disagree with it, but that does not make it bizarre.  What is bizarre is maintaining that JBC and Nellie both said that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot but being unable to provide a source...
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I just asked for a simple cite. We all know there are none. You have admitted as much by your refusal to provide any.

Cite what? No, there is nothing new here. You are well aware of what these witnesses stated. Ignoring the key parts of the witness statements and pretend they did not say them. Doing it with Mary Woodwards as well as Nellies, Jackies, and JBC’s. All in an attempt to promote this bizarre theory. For the umpteenth time you expect to have your hand held and be walked through it.
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Yes, and Gerald Ford admitted to French President Valérie Giscard d'Estaing in a private conversation:

The ex-French President speaking in 2013:

To Le Parisien newspaper: "Naïvely, I asked him - 'Do you know who assassinated Kennedy.' and without blinking he replied 'Yes. It wasn't an isolated mad gunman that killed the President of the United States."

To RTL radio: "It wasn't satisfying. We came to a first conclusion: it wasn't an isolated crime, it was something organised. We were sure that it was organised. By who, we didn't discover.
Therefore, there was an organisation that feared President Kennedy and decided to get rid of him."


I don’t know much about VGE. But I would suggest that he fantasized that Ford told him that. And that perhaps he also had a “thing” for Diana…


Giscard d'Estaing wrote his second romantic novel, published on 1 October 2009 in France, titled The Princess and the President.[62] It tells the story of a French leader having a romantic affair with a character called Patricia, Princess of Cardiff.[62] This caused many rumours that the book was based on a real-life affair between Giscard d'Estaing and Diana, Princess of Wales.[62] He later said that such an affair never happened and that the book was fictional.[63]


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9ry_Giscard_d%27Estaing
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...well Oswald may or may not have been setup to take the blame  , frankly in my view if he was setup that hoover , the commission and to a degree perhaps the DPD were involved in this , and lets not forget the agency in all this .

I can't see anything that suggests that there was a prior plot that included the framing of Oswald.
However, after the assassination had happened, Hoover and Co. and the WC did all they could to make it seem like a lone gunman was responsable, even though they we aware that shots came from more than one location.
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... lets face it the commission NEVER thought for a second that we would be here even now studying ever word they uttered 60 years later . they expected the gullible public (with the aid of the mainstream media ) to swallow what ever they were given to swallow without question . and the vast majority DID .even jim garrison swallowed it until he looked closer .

Yes, and Gerald Ford admitted to French President Valérie Giscard d'Estaing in a private conversation:

The ex-French President speaking in 2013:

To Le Parisien newspaper: "Naïvely, I asked him - 'Do you know who assassinated Kennedy.' and without blinking he replied 'Yes. It wasn't an isolated mad gunman that killed the President of the United States."

To RTL radio: "It wasn't satisfying. We came to a first conclusion: it wasn't an isolated crime, it was something organised. We were sure that it was organised. By who, we didn't discover.
Therefore, there was an organisation that feared President Kennedy and decided to get rid of him."
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Really, all this terrible outcome just because I do not want to babysit you anymore. I think everybody has seen the quotes countless times and it is pointless to post it again. I know you cannot and will not post what Nellie, Jackie, and JBC confirmed in their statements. For someone who claims to be incredibly knowledgeable about witness testimonies, you sure are playing the dumb card on this, but for good reason.

If you do not want to address what these witnesses really stated and confirmed in each other’s statements and instead press forward once again with this fantasy nonsense go for it. The statements of Nellie, Jackie and JBC cross confirming each other have been posted a myriad of times. The fact you choose to ignore them says it all.
I just asked for a simple cite. We all know there are none. You have admitted as much by your refusal to provide any.
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