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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Last post by Steve Barber on May 05, 2024, 05:19:30 PM »
 All anyone has to do to find out exactly where the stockade (it's not a "picket") fence was located on November 22, 1963, is go to the 6th floor museum and use the scale model ( made by the FBI for their investigation of the assassination) which is on display there, and you will be able to get the measurements needed.  .
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Last post by Jerry Organ on May 05, 2024, 03:30:06 PM »
Quote from: Royell Storing on May 04, 2024, 03:27:11 PM
                                     - JERRY -

         Thanks for the info. For starters, I challenge the E-W Picket Fence being in-line with the "Black Dog Man" section of retaining wall. Willis 5 refutes this as does many of the interviews/film opps that were conducted from the Top of the Triple Underpass and permitted viewing that E-W Picket Fence. These 2 views covers viewing the E-W Picket Fence in relation to the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall from BOTH the West & East Directions. There's no question that the E-W Picket Fence stood several feet BEHIND the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall on 11/22/63.
         If you wanna see the TARP/TENT images that were taken shortly after the assassination, go to You Tube  and search,   "1963 Secret Service Film (JFK Assassination Reconstruction) (Silent)" by David Von Pein 25:07.   The segment  showing the TARP/TENT  runs from 20:51-21:01. The TARP is on the (R) outside of the Circle/Cross Hairs the SS has imposed on the film. This TARP/TENT was filmed Before the Warren Report had been signed, sealed and delivered. That TARP therefore stretches over an extremely Active Crime Scene. Any possible changes to that area being conducted beneath that TARP would therefore render us an Altered Crime Scene



I believe that's the retaining wall and the hedgerow that runs in front of it.

Quote
         If you want to see the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall, look at the Gordon Arnold segment on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". This would be a look at this area 25 yrs after he assassination.
         The Picket Fence being shown as in-line with the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall on that Phase ll Map, was not their position relative to each other on 11/22/63.   

I'm going out a limb here, and bet that you haven't mapped any of this out. The photographers location and line-of-sights onto a map.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Jack Nessan on May 05, 2024, 02:53:47 PM »
Quote from: Steve Barber on May 04, 2024, 05:44:27 PM
  Wrong, the physical evidence DOES support 3 shots, but you go ahead and believe that there are not three distinct sudden physical motions by both men in the limousine. Your credibilty is a stake.

   Zapruder's camera doesn't lie.   Zapruder wasn't counting the shots as they went off, and within hours of the assassination, he didn't know for sure that he heard 2 or 3 shots.  Watch his interview with Jay Watson, WFAA-TV.  "...[T]hen I heard another shot or two..."  after having earlier seen the "president slump to the side-like this".   Zapruder was a two or three shot witness.

Jiggle analysis shows Zapruder reacted to a shot he never heard? 

There was a shot at Z155 when Zapruder clearly describes JFK was hit by the first shot?

Zapruder is wrong when he then clearly describes JFK has been struck in the head by the second shot.

Zapruder still maintained there were only two shots during his WC testimony.
Jay Watson is the problem. He told Bill Newman how many shots there were according to him as well as doing the same with Zapruder. This is exactly what the WC and HSCA meant when they stated "The media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots"

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].
Mr. LIEBELER - That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't help it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
[/u]

There is no mistaking what Zapruder thought. Jiggle Analysis on a person who only heard two shots can only indicate there were two shots. If not, then question Jiggle Analysis not Zapruder.
 

The physical evidence clearly indicates there were only two shots. Creating a shot to validate earwitness testimony is not evidence. Especially when so many eyewitnesses describe a different shooting sequence.

 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Oswald Acted Alone Is The Most Popular Theory
« Last post by Jack Nessan on May 05, 2024, 02:41:26 PM »
Quote from: Fergus O'brien on May 04, 2024, 06:03:20 PM
it was relevant , but you chose and choose not to see the relevance . alas i cannot help you see what you clearly do not want to see .

for anyone that will read these comments . the knotts lad animation was brought up , however NOT BY ME . i never said a thing about it , so i never claimed it was either accurate or not accurate . meaning i simply allowed the person who brought it up to be the one who discusses it OR NOT . their choice . HOWEVER there was criticism of the animation (be it warranted or not , that is for the readers here to judge ) as one expects from those on the LN side of the fence . IE if something atleast tends to contradict their lone nut scenario or stance they criticize , attack or dismiss it . again i neither said it was accurate or inaccurate , in fact i said nothing about that animation , as i said the readers here will judge for them selves its reliability or lack there of .ALL I DID was to note a hypocrisy of LN , which was that they stand firmly behind , push and support an LN animation that has been shown to have problems of its own  . so my comment was merely to highlight an LN hypocrisy (just one of many really ) in no way did i endorse or have i endorsed the knotts lab animation . thus far i have not commented on it and at this point i dont plan too . but i will of course read with interest any thoughts , views , comments etc in regard that animation .

Posting a reply to a post about Knotts Lab by whimpering, crying, and complaining about Meyers is relevant in what respect? You don’t like Meyers so that gives Knotts Lab a free ride to create this odd animation where they believe they debunked the SBT with an animation of JBC having been struck in the back by the same bullet that went through JFK’s neck? What a clown show.

What you are stating is you are unable to control this endless LNer diatribe? You start out to make a point, but it evolves into this strange rant and raving about LNers and you are powerless to stop it?
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Last post by Zeon Mason on May 04, 2024, 11:57:51 PM »
The Texas theater was kind of SW of Oswald’s boarding house.

So if Oswald was  the shooter at 10th and Patton , he got there (if walking) NOT actually heading SW when he left the boarding house, instead he was going more  in a SE direction which is going away from the theater.

So there might be an alternate motive if Ruby was involved in having set up Oswald , like say having paid Oswald $200 Thursday afternoon to “deliver the special package” on Friday morning to the TSBD loading dock.

( postulate here is that Oswald had been paid on previous occasions working thru Ruby to deliver packages of drugs to the TSBD loading dock annex building where they got distributed to neighboring “consumers”.)

Oswald figured out he had been set up after shots fired from TSBD, and he went home asap to get his pistol , then head to Rubys house which was SE of Oswald’s boarding house.







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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Oswald Acted Alone Is The Most Popular Theory
« Last post by Richard Smith on May 04, 2024, 11:47:38 PM »
Quote from: Fergus O'brien on May 03, 2024, 07:09:08 PM
lol when did i claim that Frazier was involved in a plot to frame Oswald for the assassination ? . it is typical of LN to dream up nonsense and then to claim SO CALLED CT made the claims . LN and rationality are two things that in my experience rarely if ever go together .

Of course you did by implication.  You simply are displaying the skills that allow you to be a CTer.  Avoid context and discuss evidence as though it has no association to any other facts or evidence.  Don't accept the implications of your claim having any validity or even attempt to explain them.   End the discussion with testimony taken in a vacuum.  That's called trying to eat your cake and have it too.  We know from the evidence that either Frazier was lying about the bag or Oswald was lying.  There is no middle ground.  Frazier testified that Oswald carried a long bag that morning around two feet or so long.  Oswald denied carrying any bag of that length.  Frazier indicated that he asked Oswald about the bag and Oswald told him it contained curtain rods.  Oswald denied that he carried any curtain rods.  Frazier testified that he asked Oswald about his lunch and Oswald told him that he was not carrying it that day.  Oswald told the police that he carried his lunch to work that day.  All of these statements are completely contradictory.  What is the explanation?  One option is that Frazier lied about Oswald carrying a long bag, the curtain rods, and no lunch bag.  Why would he do all of this?  The only plausible explanation is that he was part of a conspiracy to frame Oswald.  This isn't the type of testimony where someone is mistaken - like characterizing a color or estimating a length.   Frazier says that Oswald told him that he was carrying curtain rods in the bag.  And where is the two-foot long bag that Frazier saw if not the bag found on the 6th floor.? No such bag matching that length was ever found or ever accounted for.  How do we square that fact with his testimony?  The bag he saw was the one found on the 6th floor.   That bag had Oswald's prints further confirming that fact.  That bag is longer than two feet. 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on May 04, 2024, 11:21:32 PM »
If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.

That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.

The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224  shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.

Now maybe Charles could be on the right track to suggest a shot that was very close just after the Z313 head shot .
A 3rd MC rifle shot not aimed, just loaded fast as possible and fired high, perhaps in 2.0 secs?

It could be the same phenomenon of memory that witness could hear 2 shots spaced only 2 secs apart as “back to back” because of the longer preceding gap of silence of 4.8 secs between Z224 and Z313.

My pet (CT) theory is a solitary  shooter used a semi auto rifle and that after he waited the 4.8 secs after shooting 1st shot at Z224 , he intended to shoot shots 2&3 as rapid final shots and that 2nd shot at Z313 hit while the 3rd shot about 0.5-1 sec later,  went high due to muzzle rise effect when firing a semi auto rapidly.

From a CT perspective, this resolves the reason for the chain of custody issues and insignificant deformation of CE 399 because the bullet witness saw on the stretcher, WAS a pointed bullet and NOT the ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet. That bullet went to FBI and was switched with CE 399 later after a false report made attributed to FBI  agent Odum because the witness did NOT identify CE 399.

It’s kind of same thing the WC did  with V.Adams and Lovelady/Shelley, changing things a bit to make their theory fit.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Charles Collins on May 04, 2024, 07:43:19 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on May 04, 2024, 06:40:45 PM
If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.
There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.
And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.


The Warren Commission said that they were unable to conclude which one of the three shots missed. The HSCA concluded that the first shot missed. I tend to agree with the first shot missed theory, and have found numerous items that suggest that this theory is correct. However, I have not been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

 I have not yet given the idea of the third shot missing very much consideration. This is mostly due to my opinion that it does not make any sense for someone to shoot again, after seeing JFK’s head explode. But I do consider that it is possible that there was a third shot that missed. Charles Brehm indicated that he thought that the third shot missed everything. In my imagination, I suppose that if LHO was firing and cycling the bolt as fast as he could, that he might automatically cycle the bolt after the head shot. Then after seeing JFK had gone down and Jackie was crawling on the trunk lid, he might have instinctively not wanted to shoot Jackie and moved his aim away from her. And if he had his finger on the trigger, it is feasible that he inadvertently fired the third shot over the limo. These are just some ideas that I have had. Perhaps a closer look at a possible third shot miss is in order?
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Andrew Mason on May 04, 2024, 06:40:45 PM »
Quote from: Steve Barber on May 04, 2024, 03:59:53 PM
  One of the three shots missed the target.
If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

Quote
We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck.

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.

Quote
A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.
There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.

Quote
B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his right
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car.
And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Oswald Acted Alone Is The Most Popular Theory
« Last post by Fergus O'brien on May 04, 2024, 06:03:20 PM »
it was relevant , but you chose and choose not to see the relevance . alas i cannot help you see what you clearly do not want to see .

for anyone that will read these comments . the knotts lad animation was brought up , however NOT BY ME . i never said a thing about it , so i never claimed it was either accurate or not accurate . meaning i simply allowed the person who brought it up to be the one who discusses it OR NOT . their choice . HOWEVER there was criticism of the animation (be it warranted or not , that is for the readers here to judge ) as one expects from those on the LN side of the fence . IE if something atleast tends to contradict their lone nut scenario or stance they criticize , attack or dismiss it . again i neither said it was accurate or inaccurate , in fact i said nothing about that animation , as i said the readers here will judge for them selves its reliability or lack there of .ALL I DID was to note a hypocrisy of LN , which was that they stand firmly behind , push and support an LN animation that has been shown to have problems of its own  . so my comment was merely to highlight an LN hypocrisy (just one of many really ) in no way did i endorse or have i endorsed the knotts lab animation . thus far i have not commented on it and at this point i dont plan too . but i will of course read with interest any thoughts , views , comments etc in regard that animation .
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