JFK Assassination Forum

What part of 'they lied about their movements after the assassination' are you not getting?
The only time they were truthful were their very first statements, their affidavits.
They were both on the steps when the shots rang out, Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension where he met Gloria coming the other way. Shelley returned to the steps and re-entered the building with Lovelady, who never left the steps.
They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.
What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.

Lovelady never mentions going across Elm Street and meeting Gloria.
Lovelady lied when he said he and Shelley went to where the limo slowed down and stayed in that area for five minutes.
Shelley lied when he said he and Lovelady accompanied police officers to the railroad yard and stayed there for ten minutes.
Shelley lied in his WC testimony when he said he was on the steps when Gloria came running up.
Both men lied when they said it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to arrive.
Shelley lied to George and Patricia Nash when he said Truly and Baker didn't enter the building for five or six minutes.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said that after they left the steps they turned around and saw Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said they went to the railroad yards.
Both men lied in their WC testimonies when they said they re-entered the building through the west door.
Lovelady lied in his HSCA statement when he said he didn't re-enter the building for 20 to 25 minutes.
LOVELADY NEVER LEFT THE STEPS.
BOTH MEN RE-ENTERED THE FRONT DOOR AROUND THE SAME TIME BAKER ARRIVES IN THE LOBBY.
ADAMS SAW BOTH MEN LESS THAN 60 SECONDS AFTER THE SHOOTING.
This scenario is supported by the following evidence:
1] The Darnell footage
2] The Truly/Baker time trials
3] The Dillard Picture
4] The Stroud document
5] The testimonies/statements of Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, Molina and Sanders

The only evidence against it are the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.

They both then made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams less than 60 seconds after the shooting. Seconds later Truly and Baker show up in the same area where Baker reports seeing two white men hanging around.

What, about this scenario, are you having a problem with.

The timing doesn't work. Both with Shelley and Lovelady and the officers surrounding the building.

Your calculations place Adams and Styles on the first floor and going out the back at 35 seconds post shot. Shelley, Lovelady, Baker, and Truly by your estimation are still on the front steps. How does that work? How can they be in two places at the same time?


Dan O--"So, from the moment of the headshot (last shot):
 
8 seconds pass before Adams sets off.
12.5 seconds to make it from the window to the top of the stairs
15 seconds to make it down to the first floor.
 
A total of 35.5 seconds for Adams to be on the first floor after the last shot which agrees nicely with her own estimation, given in her WC testimony of less than 60 seconds. This would give Adams enough time to make it down to the first floor and out of the back door before Baker and Truly make it to the elevators."

The officer time stamps also prove the early departure of Adams and Styles is just wrong. Exactly again why do you think this is possible? It is all based on the thought or lack of thought that Shelley and Lovelady deliberately mislead everyone to discredit Adams and Styles, really?

No worries Steve, I totally agree, the windows are filthy, the image is a ridiculously close crop of a much larger image so all kinds of "noise" is going to be present. And, as I said to Charles, staring at images for too long doesn't help.
Wasn't aware of the face in the window claim but feel reassured I was just having some kind of mad moment.

 
   Hi Dan.

    It's no worse than Gary Mack and Jack White claiming to see what is referred to as "The Badge Man" in the Mary Ann Moorman Krahmer photograpgh. 
  Dale Myers put that nonsense to bed once and for all.  I don't think you were having a mad moment.

   

There is Bowleys watch time stamp of 1:10pm. There is Markams clock at 1:04 when she left the house, thus her estimate of 1:06-1:07 of 1st sighting the shooter she thought looked like Oswald as she was on her way to bus stop to wait for a 1:12 bus ( the one she called her 1:15 bus).
There is the hospital emergency room clock, the 1:15 DOA time stamp of the emergency room doctor who pronounced the DOA WHEN the body of Tippit arrives at the hospital AT 1:15.

Note: DOA time stamp is NOT the same as a physicians estimate of death.  DOA document is simply marking the time a body arriving at the emergency  room was declared as received and found to be dead “on arrival”.

Multiple different clocks and witnesses that verify the shooter of Tippit had to have been at 10th and Patton by approx not later than 1:08 so as to have 1 extra minute for the shooter being followed by Tippit, a conversation , the shooting, lingering and throwing shells and running away out of view  before Benevides got out of the car and made the 1st call attempt just before Bowley arrived.

Would people be aware their clocks are running slow by 6 minutes or more since they relied routinely on their clocks and watches to  catch buses on time , drive buses, pick up their children at school on time , and sign important legal documents like DOA time of a body arriving at emergency room of a hospital?

Are we supposed to believe that the school clock and Markams work clock , and Bowleys (an engineer no less) watch, and the bus drivers watch and bus company’s clock and the hospital clock were ALL 6-7 minutes slow?

This is just utter nonsense.
You made multiple claims that from their earliest statements Lovelady and Shelley were saying they had met Gloria after they crossed Elm Street.

How can you interpret what they said before giving their WC testimony as being consistent with meeting Gloria Calvery on the steps?  Here is what they said they did after the shots:
Shelley: 
24H226: "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This Girl's name is Gloria Calvery."
22H673: "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Lovelady:
CD205 FBI 22Nov63: "He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."

The statements mention different things.  Yet each said that immediately after the shots they did things that are inconsistent with remaining on the steps and meeting Gloria Calvery coming back to the TSBD. 

One minute you're on about the importance of the first statements after an event but now, when it doesn't suit you, these first statements mean nothing.
The purpose of the affidavits was to find out what these men did and saw around the time of the assassination.
Shelley ran across Elm Street, met Gloria, came back to the steps and re-entered the building.
Lovelady never left the steps and re-entered the building.

You have yet to tackle Lovelady's FBI statement.  How did they start running towards the President's car and not leave the front steps of the TSBD?

I'm glad you disagree Andrew.
There could hardly be greater validation of the arguments I'm presenting.

Pure speculation that they knowingly uttered statements that they knew to be false at the time they uttered them. Speculation appears to be good enough for you to call someone dishonest.

He doesn't say he met Gloria C. at any time but he could not have met her before he ran towards the President's car.

And finally, here we have it - the admission that Lovelady never mentioned seeing Gloria before his WC testimony in any statement. Time and time again making the claim he did, but knowing full well he hadn't:
Reply#18
"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was coming toward them from farther down Elm."
Reply#33
"...were it not for their earlier statements where they made it clear that they crossed Elm immediately after the shots and met Calvery."
Reply#40
"...in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them."
Reply#40
"...in their original statements, they said Gloria came running up to them as they were standing near each other."

Is this dishonesty?
Do I understand what dishonesty is?
Or should the question be - do you know what "dishonest" means?

I was referring to what what Lovelady and Shelley together said.  So long as they don't contradict each other there is nothing dishonest or misleading about referring to what they said in their statements.  If I had said "each said they met Gloria" and only one had said that then I would have been incorrect.  That would have been careless of me.  But I didn't.  When you asked me specifically what just Lovelady said I reviewed all his statements prior to his WC testimony and acknowledged that he had not - just in his WC testimony. Lovelady's failure to mention that he met Gloria Calvery doesn't mean he didn't meet her so it doesn't make it inconsistent with Shelly's statement

I posted:

"I'm well aware Shelley claims that after the shots he runs across the Elm Street extension and meets Gloria coming the other way. He then returns to the steps and re-enters the building. At no point does he mention Lovelady came with him. He refers only to himself going over."

To which you responded:

"Au contraire. Shelley said in his FBI statement (22H673): "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building...".  Are we to assume you were not aware of this statement when you suggested that "at no point does he mention that Lovelady came with him"? "

Au contraire?
Really?
Here's a link to Shelley's affidavit, a document you are clearly unfamiliar with - https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/m1/1/

Not only am I familiar with it, I have referred to it. It is the only prior statement either he or Lovelady made in which Gloria Calvery is mentioned.  BTW, the witness statements of all the witnesses in Dealey Plaza are conveniently compiled by Stuart Galanor here.

Here is the relevant excerpt from it:
"I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the President in the parade...when I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot...I went back to the building and went inside."
I ran across the street...
I went back to the building...
No mention of Lovelady being with him. As far as his affidavit is concerned he went alone and, as we shall see, this is corroborated by Lovelady's affidavit.

That is correct.  But that is not the only statement he made before giving his WC testimony.  That is why I quoted from his earlier FBI statement at 22H673 in which he mentions Lovelady being with him.

I posted:

"In his affidavit Lovelady never even leaves the front steps!"

To which you responded:

"You really aren't serious are you?  How can they both run toward the President's car and still remain standing on the front steps?"

Yes Andrew...I am being serious.
Here's a link to Lovelady's affidavit, another document you are clearly unfamiliar with - https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338698/
Here's the relevant excerpts from his affidavit:
"I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work...I heard three shots...After it was over we went back into the building."
That is the sum total of Lovelady's recollection of his movements in his first statement to the police a couple of hours after the assassination.

What makes you think that that is all he recalled?  Does it say "I don't recall any other details at all"? The statement was written up by the Dallas police.  They were very busy that day.  Lovelady may not have mentioned meeting Gloria Calvery or seeing Truly walk into the building or going down to the railroad yard or going in the back door etc. Or the police officer taking the statement may not have thought those details were needed to be in the statement.  Statements are often taken for a particular purpose. In that case, it appears they were particularly interested in what he heard - the number of shots and where he thought they came from. I can guarantee you that their purpose was not to determine where he may have encountered Gloria Calvery.

According to their affidavits, after the shots Shelley ran across Elm, encountered Gloria and came back to the steps. Both men then re-entered the building.
And that's that.
And it is the only truthful account of their movements.
And this is how Vicki Adams not only witnessed them towards the back of the first floor less than 60 seconds after the assassination, she called out to them.
Then come the lies.
First is Lovelady's FBI statement about how "immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass."
It's obviously a lie because it's impossible.
Both men were on the steps when all three shots were fired. How could they then run towards the limo and see it speed away?
If the headshot was the last shot, which isn't necessarily the case, but if it were the limo sped away instantly after it was fired so how could they see it speed away.
In his FBI statement of March 19th '64, Lovelady exacerbates he lie when he states "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes..."
So Lovelady has them both running towards the spot where the limo stopped, seeing the limo speeding away and staying in that area for about 5 minutes. Meanwhile, Shelley is telling a completely different story - "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Nolan and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."
Ten minutes?
At the railroad yards?
What happened to five minutes in the area where the limo stopped?
They get their heads together and the lie they finally settle on is a version on Shelley's FBI statement for their WC testimony.
And let's not forget Lovelady's HSCA statement where he said he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20 to 25 minutes after the shooting!!

That's your theory.  I just don't find it to be the least bit persuasive.  It does not fit the evidence provided by others or provided in their earlier statements.

You were asked to explain this part of Shelley's WC testimony where he is unequivocally clear that he was still on the steps when Gloria ran up there:

Mr. BALL: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY: Yes.

No explaining necessary.  It says what it says.  He was confused, possibly by Ball, about when he saw Truly and Baker running into the TSBD, possibly because both events occurred after they ran across Elm St. immediately after the shots.

Obviously you tried to side-step it in your usual honest way.
And as for Ball's "leading question",
As you are well aware, earlier in his testimony, Ball asked where Shelley was during the shooting to which Shelley replied, "just outside the glass doors". After the shots Shelley is asked what happened next:

Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

When he says Gloria ran "back up there", he is referring to his position on the steps. After the encounter he and Lovelady "took off across the street."
Ball is simply clarifying that Shelley was still on the steps when Gloria came running up and Shelley confirms this was the case.

In reality, Shelley had run across the Elm Street extension where he encountered Gloria and followed her back to the steps as she told everyone there about the shooting.
But in their WC testimonies there can be zero doubt that both men are saying they were on the steps when Gloria came running up, after which they took off across the Elm Street extension at which point they turned round and saw Truly and Baker still outside the building over three minutes after the shooting
It must be remembered that Shelley repeated this lie to Patricia and George Nash, as reported in their October '64 article "The Other Witnesses":

"Further, Bill Shelley told us that Truly and Baker entered five or six minutes after the shooting."

The 3 Minute Lie is a co-ordinated and repeated lie.
It is proven a lie by the Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimonies/statements of Adams, Truly, Baker, Molina and Sanders, not to mention the constantly changing, contradictory and, at times, impossible statements Shelley and Lovelady make regarding their movements.
It's sole purpose is to disguise the real movements of Shelley and Lovelady immediately after the assassination.
The reality of these movements were given away in their original statements - after the shooting Shelley ran across the Elm Street extension, met Gloria, came back to the steps from where Lovelady hadn't moved, and both men re-entered the building. Seconds later Adams sees them on the first floor as she and Styles  run from the stairs and exit through the back door. Seconds after that Truly and Baker arrive in the same area and Baker reports seeing two white men, who can only be Shelley and Lovelady, hanging around that area.

I disagree with your assessment of Shelley and Lovelady as deliberately lying.  I would need some clear and cogent evidence that they had any intent to mislead the Warren Commission. Witnesses change their stories all the time. That is why we have statements taken as early as possible. If a witness later gives testimony that is inconsistent with their earlier statement they can either be corrected.  If they insist their memories are better 6 months after the events the judge or jury will take that into account in assessing their credibility.