JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on September 03, 2025, 10:44:44 PM
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(Title changed from "How long did it take Officer Baker to reach the TSBD's front steps after the 3rd shot?" to "There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.")
According to Mark Tyler's synchronized map of the motorcade, after the 3rd shot it took DPD officer Marion Baker 15 seconds to park his motorcycle.
Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, he heard over its radio Chief Curry say "send all available men to the railway yard (or words to that effect) and started running towards the TSBD front steps at that time.
Curry spoke that "railway yard" order twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time 15 seconds after that (because the dispatcher didn't fully understand the first transmission).
According to Mark Tyler's graphics alone:
12:30:00 -- The Z-313 fatal head shot occurs
12:30:15 -- Baker parks his motorcycle
12:30:20 -- Baker starts running towards the front steps
12:30:25 -- Baker arrives at the TSBD front door.
However,
According to a combination of Baker's WC testimony, the audio of the DPD radio transmissions as synced to the timing of the fatal head shot by Tyler, and Tyler's graphics as they pertain only to the 1) 12:30:00 fatal head shot, and 2) the 12:30:15 parking of Baker's motorcycle:
12:30:00 -- Fatal head shot
12:30:15 -- Baker parks his motorcycle
12:30:35 -- Curry transmits "get men up on the overpass"
12:31:05 -- Curry transmits "get men to the railway yard" and Baker, per his WC testimony, starts running towards the steps at this point (or perhaps 15 seconds later -- see below)
12:31:20 -- Curry re-transmits "get men to the railway yard," and Baker, possibly like the dispatcher now able to understand what Curry had said 15 seconds earlier, now starts running towards the steps.
. . . . . . .
If Baker started running towards the front steps 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, big/tall, black blouse and black headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed), who were standing about 90 feet down Elm Street from the front steps during the motorcade, had plenty of time to walk or run to the TSBD and be on the steps in time for Calvery to tell Lovelady and Shelley, about ten seconds before Baker arrived there, that JFK had been shot. (I say ten seconds because in Couch-Darnell we can see Lovelady and Shelley almost as far as the "Huge Gates" on the side of the building as they are (apparently) on their way to the railway yard / parking lot for a quick look-see, after which they returned to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door.
In this scenario, it's possible that Officer Baker didn't enter the TSBD until at least 70 seconds after the 3rd shot. Ergo Truly (who can be seen in the Darnell clip standing in front of the TSBD and watching Baker run past him), followed by Baker, may not have reached the 2nd-floor until at about a minute-and-a-half after the 3rd shot, thereby giving Oswald plenty of time to reach the lunch room on that floor before they got there.
If Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles lingered at the window, watching all the commotion going on below, and then talked with Mrs. Gardner for a grand total of about a minute and twenty seconds before starting down, Oswald, Truly and Baker may have been out of sight inside the lunchroom's "vestibule" when they were quickly traversing the corner of that floor on their way downstairs.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
Caveat:
Even if Baker conflated Curry's 12:30:35 "up on the overpass" with his 12:30:05 "to the railway yard?" transmission in his WC testimony as to when he started running towards the TSBD, it still doesn't jibe with what we see happening (e.g., Baker's running's juxtaposed with motorcade cars' and motorcycles actions) in the Couch-Darnell clip.
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According to Mark Tyler's synchronized map of the motorcade, after the 3rd shot it took DPD officer Marion Baker 15 seconds to park his motorcycle.
Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, but before he started running towards the TSBD's front steps, he heard over the radio Captain Curry order all available men to go to the railway yard.
Curry said that twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time was 15 seconds later (because the dispatcher said he didn't fully understand the first transmission).
We therefore know that big/tall, black blouse and black headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed), who were standing about 90 feet down Elm Street from the front steps during the motorcade, had plenty of time to walk or run back to the TSBD and be on the steps in time for Calvery to tell Lovelady and Shelley, about ten seconds before Baker arrived there, that JFK had been shot. (I say ten seconds because we can see Lovelady and Shelley almost as far as the "Huge Gates" on the side of the building as they are (apparently) on their way to the railway yard / parking lot for a quick look-see, after which they returned to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door.
Bottom line: Officer Baker didn't enter the TSBD until at least 70 seconds after the 3rd shot. Ergo Truly (who can be seen in the Darnell clip standing in front of the TSBD and watching Baker run past him), followed by Baker, didn't reach the 2nd-floor until at about a minute-and-a-half after the 3rd shot, thereby giving Oswald plenty of time to reach the lunch room on that floor before they got there.
If Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles lingered at the window watching all the commotion going on below and then talked with Mrs. Gardner for a grand total of about a minute and twenty seconds before starting down, Oswald, Truly and Baker may have been out of sight inside the lunchroom's "vestibule" when Adams and Styles were quickly traversing the corner of that floor on their way downstairs.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
Thumb1:
Nice pick up by you. I've never seen that pointed out before.
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According to Mark Tyler's synchronized map of the motorcade, after the 3rd shot it took DPD officer Marion Baker 15 seconds to park his motorcycle.
Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, but before he started running towards the TSBD's front steps, he heard over the radio Chief Curry order all available men to go to the railway yard.
Curry said that twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time was 15 seconds later (because the dispatcher said he didn't fully understand the first transmission).
We therefore know that big/tall, black blouse and black headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed), who were standing about 90 feet down Elm Street from the front steps during the motorcade, had plenty of time to walk or run back to the TSBD and be on the steps in time for Calvery to tell Lovelady and Shelley, about ten seconds before Baker arrived there, that JFK had been shot. (I say ten seconds because in Couch-Darnell we can see Lovelady and Shelley almost as far as the "Huge Gates" on the side of the building as they are (apparently) on their way to the railway yard / parking lot for a quick look-see, after which they returned to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door.
Bottom line: Officer Baker didn't enter the TSBD until at least 70 seconds after the 3rd shot. Ergo Truly (who can be seen in the Darnell clip standing in front of the TSBD and watching Baker run past him), followed by Baker, didn't reach the 2nd-floor until at about a minute-and-a-half after the 3rd shot, thereby giving Oswald plenty of time to reach the lunch room on that floor before they got there.
If Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles lingered at the window, watching all the commotion going on below, and then talked with Mrs. Gardner for a grand total of about a minute and twenty seconds before starting down, Oswald, Truly and Baker may have been out of sight inside the lunchroom's "vestibule" when they were quickly traversing the corner of that floor on their way downstairs.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
I don't disagree with any of that, but I still find Oswald's reaction to the Baker encounter to be borderline supernatural. You've just shot the POTUS and you pull off THAT act 90 seconds later??? Granted, Oswald wasn't required to actually do or say anything; perhaps he was in a state of shock and thus appeared cooler than any cucumber I can imagine.
I was not aware of Mark Tyler's work, but it is fantastic. His Technical Reference Handbook that accompanies the videos is a meticulous, non-dogmatic analysis of what we know occurred and what might have occurred. It does not promote either the LN narrative or a CT narrative and is well worth anyone's time.
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I don't disagree with any of that, but I still find Oswald's reaction to the Baker encounter to be borderline supernatural. You've just shot the POTUS and you pull off THAT act 90 seconds later??? Granted, Oswald wasn't required to actually do or say anything; perhaps he was in a state of shock and thus appeared cooler than any cucumber I can imagine.
I was not aware of Mark Tyler's work, but it is fantastic. His Technical Reference Handbook that accompanies the videos is a meticulous, non-dogmatic analysis of what we know occurred and what might have occurred. It does not promote either the LN narrative or a CT narrative and is well worth anyone's time.
Yes, except either Baker misremembered Curry's "up to the overpass" order with "up to the railyard" order, or Tyler has Baker running towards the front steps about a minute too soon.
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Yes, except either Baker misremembered Curry's "up to the overpass" order with "up to the railyard" order, or Tyler has Baker running towards the front steps about a minute too soon.
I just checked. Curry's "Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there" was made just after a 12:30 timestamp on channel two. It was not 65 seconds after the third shot.
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I just checked. Curry's "Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there" was made just after a 12:30 timestamp on channel two. It was not 65 seconds after the third shot.
Tim,
I've just retitled this thread "There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony."
Perhaps you'd like to re-read it?
Regardless, even though I like Mark Tyler's portrayal of Billy Lovelady's and Gloria Calvary's brief interaction in the street in front of the TSBD, it mystifies me as to why he has Lovelady just kinda hangin' out near that spot after she continues on her way to the steps (instead of his walking down the right side of Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard as I believe we see him doing in Couch-Darnell), not to mention the fact that Lovelady's putative sidekick, William Shelley, is nowhere to be seen in Tyler's animation.
-- Tom
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Tim,
I've just retitled this thread "There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony."
Perhaps you'd like to re-read it?
Regardless, even though I like Mark Tyler's portrayal of Billy Lovelady's and Gloria Calvary's brief interaction in the street in front of the TSBD, it mystifies me as to why he has Lovelady just kinda hangin' out near that spot after she continues on her way to the steps (instead of his walking down the right side of Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard as I believe we see him doing in Couch-Darnell), not to mention the fact that Lovelady's putative sidekick, William Shelley, is nowhere to be seen in Tyler's animation.
-- Tom
If you're mystified, ask him. He invites comments and provides his email address.
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If you're mystified, ask him. He invites comments and provides his email address.
Thanks, Lance.
Question:
Whom do you think the two men are that we see walking/running down the right side of Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot as Baker's running towards the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell?
-- Tom
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Dear Lance,
Whom do you think the two men are that we see walking/running down the right side of Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot as Baker's running towards the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell?
-- Tom
Curly and Moe? Am I close?
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Curly and Moe? Am I close?
Is that your best guess, Counselor?
Which one seems to be wearing a suit and have a similar hairstyle as Bill Shelley, and which one seems to be wearing a bold-plaid shirt like Lovelady was wearing that day?
And where was Larry, btw?
Making out with Vicki Adams?
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Tyler's take on the shots is quite flawed. He calls an early missed shot a red herring. He has three shot bursts. Shot Burst 1 (Z180-Z40)is made up of two shots. He has the first one missing at Z185 and Kennedy and Connally being hit by the other at about Z220. Shot Burst 2 (Z270-Z330) contains only one shot; the head shot. He says that if the shot was fired from the sixth floor window of the TSBD it would have been fired at Z310. For Shot Burst 3 (Z360-Z420), it's not clear if he favors one or two shots.
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Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.
REPLY#5
Posted by yourself:
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
D'oh!
Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby.
You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.
From Lovelady's WC testimony:
Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was
The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.
"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."
In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together. If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.
The man you believe is William "Pompadour" Shelley is most likely Danny "Pompadour" Arce.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Tyler's take on the shots is quite flawed. He calls an early missed shot a red herring. He has three shot bursts. Shot Burst 1 (Z180-Z40)is made up of two shots. He has the first one missing at Z185 and Kennedy and Connally being hit by the other at about Z220. Shot Burst 2 (Z270-Z330) contains only one shot; the head shot. He says that if the shot was fired from the sixth floor window of the TSBD it would have been fired at Z310. For Shot Burst 3 (Z360-Z420), it's not clear if he favors one or two shots.
I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)
What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.
The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."
FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)
• Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
• Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
• The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
• The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
• The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, because so many witnesses heard a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
• A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.
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Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.
REPLY#5
Posted by yourself:
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby. You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.
From Lovelady's WC testimony:
Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was
The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.
"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."
In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on, he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together. If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.
The man you believe is William "Pompadour" Shelley is most likely Danny "Pompadour" Arce.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Dear Dan,
I didn't create that photo with the red letters.
I'm guessing that either Sandy Larsen or Linda Giovanna Zambinini (sp?) did, but IDK for sure. Regardless, I don't think I ever said that was Shelley with his back to the camera.
Do you think that's Shelley?
If so, why?
Credit: Chris Davidson
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1
I remain open-minded as to whether or not that's Joe Molina with whom Gloria Calvery is apparently talking with on the steps.
Do you think Mark Tyler's representation of what Lovelady did after Calvery spoke with him in the street (and continued on to the steps) is accurate, buddy?
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Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.
REPLY#5
Posted by yourself:
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
D'oh!
Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby.
You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.
From Lovelady's WC testimony:
Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was
The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.
"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."
In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together. If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.
So we are in agreement that it is, in fact, Curly and Moe? How come you didn't label Prayer Person as Oswald - are you wimping out on us? How many gunmen does Jake Maxwell see in that photo? (Looks to me like Truly has a rifle in a paper bag, Jake!)
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I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)
What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.
The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."
FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)
• Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
• Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
• The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
• The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
• The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, becauseso many witnesses heard
a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
• A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.
It's possible that I haven't had enough coffee today. I did get that "Bursts" does not mean he thinks that there was more than one shot. I noted that it's not clear if he favors one or two shots for Burst Shot 3. He even has a 'zero shots option' for that Burst. While I did misunderstand his "An Early Missed Shot" red herring, he does dismiss an early first shot. The circa Z160 or earlier shot.
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Dear Dan,
I didn't create that photo with the red letters.
I'm guessing that either Sandy Larsen or Linda Giovanna Zambinini (sp?) did, but IDK for sure. Regardless, I don't think I ever said that was Shelley with his back to the camera.
Do you think that's Shelley?
If so, why?
I remain open-minded as to whether or not that's Joe Molina with whom Gloria Calvery is apparently talking with on the steps.
Do you think Mark Tyler's representation of what Lovelady did after Calvery spoke with him in the street (and continued on to the steps) is accurate, buddy?
Please read the post before replying.
This is REPLY#5 taken from the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread."
Your incorrect identification of Joe Molina on the steps is dealt with in this post.
Your incorrect identification of Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension is dealt with in this post.
FYI, I created the image with the red lettering.
"Do you think Mark Tyler's representation of what Lovelady did after Calvery spoke with him in the street (and continued on to the steps) is accurate, buddy?"
IMO Tyler's animation is a staggering achievement but it is not without it's minor flaws and the movement of Lovelady it represents is one of them.
Lovelady [84 in the animation] stays on the front steps after the shots and is still there when Gloria runs up to the front steps and tells everyone there that the President has been shot. He does not come off the steps to meet her in the street. There is no a scrap of testimony by anyone to suggest this is the case so it is hard to know why Tyler has depicted this.
Shelley came off the steps and moved to the concrete spur that divides Elm Street from the Elm Street extension. He met Gloria, who was running from the shooting she had just witnessed, back to the TSBD building. Shelley then came back to the building after doing so.
The picture with the red letters shows the moment Gloria was telling Lovelady about the shooting on the front steps. Shelley is seen near the bottom of the steps having just returned from the concrete spur.
Tyler includes Gloria's interaction with officer Joe Smith [80 in the animation] where she tells him that someone was shooting from the bushes near the pergola after which Smith races off down the extension.
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I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)
What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.
The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."
FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)
• Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
• Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
• The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
• The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
• The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, because so many witnesses heard a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
• A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.
IMHO, Tyler's got a lot of darn gall to call a missing-everything shot before Z-180 a "red herring."
To do so ignores Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 findings that five people in the limo and two others near it consciously reacted almost simultaneously to a loud sound around Z-145, not only suggesting that there was a missing-everything shot before Z-180, but that it occurred about three seconds earlier, i.e., around hypothetical "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
https://www.acsr.org/post/estimating-occult-timing-of-surprise-gunshot-sounds-in-silent-film-via-observed-start-of-human-vol
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IMHO, Tyler's got a lot of darn gall to call a missing-everything shot before Z-180 a "red herring."
To do so ignores Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 findings that five people in the limo and two others near it consciously reacted almost simultaneously to a loud sound around Z-145, not only suggesting that there was a missing-everything shot before Z-180, but that it occurred around hypothetical "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
The Roselle/Searce nonsense is a joke. It's a bunch of unsubstantiated guesses dressed as science.
But let's not wander off down that yellow brick road.
Your identification of Lovelady and Shelley as the men wandering down the Elm Street extension is incorrect for many reasons.
As is your identification of Molina on the steps.
As is the whole premise for this thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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IMHO, Tyler's got a lot of darn gall to call a missing-everything shot before Z-180 a "red herring."
To do so ignores Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 findings that five people in the limo and two others near it consciously reacted almost simultaneously to a loud sound around Z-145, not only suggesting that there was a missing-everything shot before Z-180, but that it occurred about three seconds earlier, i.e., around hypothetical "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
https://www.acsr.org/post/estimating-occult-timing-of-surprise-gunshot-sounds-in-silent-film-via-observed-start-of-human-vol
Voila! Thanks to the occult powers of my JFK Autograph Model Ouija Board, I have discovered that Mark Tyler is (or was) a member of the forum and participated quite genially on the thread by Marjan Rynkiewicz to the effect that the first shot was at Z105 or Z113, to wit:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html
I didn't read it all, I'll admit, because my eyes glaze over and the propellor on my beanie needs new batteries, but if Mark Tyler has "a lot of darn gall" it appears to be pretty well-thought-out gall. Maybe he's a KGB plant, ya think?
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Voila! Thanks to the occult powers of my JFK Autograph Model Ouija Board, I have discovered that Mark Tyler is (or was) a member of the forum and participated quite genially on the thread by Marjan Rynkiewicz to the effect that the first shot was at Z105 or Z113, to wit:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html
I didn't read it all, I'll admit, because my eyes glaze over and the propellor on my beanie needs new batteries, but if Mark Tyler has "a lot of darn gall" it appears to be pretty well-thought-out gall. Maybe he's a KGB plant, ya think?
Pardon my French.
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There's No Evidence of an alleged "early" shot. Some of you are basically playing your own game of "Charades" as you apply your own personal interpretation of the actions of people viewing the JFK Motorcade. That is Not Evidence. But let's say there was an early shot at Z113. With the Kill Shot being at Z313, you are talking about the JFK Limo being under steady fire for 11+ seconds. Yet, ALL of those SS Agents did absolutely nothing over that 11+ seconds time period to stop the assassin(s)? Seriously? If you're gonna claim an early shot, you are then proving a Conspiracy based on the inaction of the entire SS while under consistent fire for 11+ seconds.
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There's No Evidence of an alleged "early" shot. Some of you are basically playing your own game of "Charades" as you apply your own personal interpretation of the actions of people viewing the JFK Motorcade. That is Not Evidence. But let's say there was an early shot at Z113. With the Kill Shot being at Z313, you are talking about the JFK Limo being under steady fire for 11+ seconds. Yet, ALL of those SS Agents did absolutely nothing over that 11+ seconds time period to stop the assassin(s)? Seriously? If you're gonna claim an early shot, you are then proving a Conspiracy based on the inaction of the entire SS while under consistent fire for 11+ seconds.
Tyler makes the same point about the SS agents:
"In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180. Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point. Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot."
This is also the same point outlined in the OP of "The First Shot" thread which debunks, beyond any reasonable doubt, the notion of an early missed shot.
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Tyler makes the same point about the SS agents:
"In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180. Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point. Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot."
This is also the same point outlined in the OP of "The First Shot" thread which debunks, beyond any reasonable doubt, the notion of an early missed shot.
What you are describing with respect to the JFK Limo/Thornton Sign would also line up with the Willis Girl slowing up/stopping her run.
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Mark Tyler sez: "In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180.
Tyler and you are full of highly pungent beans.
Secret Service Agent George Hickey has started leaning over and looking down at the pavement by Z-148, someone on the passengers' side of the Secret Service follow-up car (Kenny O'Donnell or Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett) has started leaning over to his right by Z-148 to see if JFK's okay, and Roy Kellerman, riding shotgun in the limo, has begun leaning over and looking down and/or behind himself by Z-148.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
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Remember that some of these SS guys were hung over. They coulda been trying to blow breakfast.
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Remember that some of these SS guys were hung over. They coulda been trying to blow breakfast.
Maybe it was that gosh-darned Houston Street - Elm Street hairpin turn that launched them over the edge both literally and figuratively!
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Tyler and you are full of highly pungent beans.
And what are you full of?
Secret Service Agent George Hickey has started leaning over and looking down at the pavement by Z-148, someone on the passengers' side of the Secret Service follow-up car (Kenny O'Donnell or Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett) has started leaning over to his right by Z-148 to see if JFK's okay, and Roy Kellerman, riding shotgun in the limo, has begun leaning over and looking down and/or behind himself by Z-148.
Surely you must provide some kind of testimony or statement from the actual men you are putting forward in your post, to support your bananas idea.
You do not get to decide what these men are doing. You must let them speak for themselves.
If you cannot provide any such testimony/statement then you must concede that you are full of sh^t.
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What you are describing with respect to the JFK Limo/Thornton Sign would also line up with the Willis Girl slowing up/stopping her run.
No. it doesn't.
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Tyler and you are full of highly pungent beans.
Secret Service Agent George Hickey has started leaning over and looking down at the pavement by Z-148, someone on the passengers' side of the Secret Service follow-up car (Kenny O'Donnell or Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett) has started leaning over to his right by Z-148 to see if JFK's okay, and Roy Kellerman, riding shotgun in the limo, has begun leaning over and looking down and/or behind himself by Z-148.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
I must agree with Dan - no, please, not THAT!!! - that you must be psychic if you can discern all that. I don't even SEE it. (Again I link for the benefit of others this handy frame-by-frame table of Z frames: https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/.) Moreover, doesn't it stand to reason that, having just made the turn onto Elm, they WOULD be looking around? Kellerman told the WC he first heard "a report like a firecracker pop" when they had just passed the sign and were "out in the open." Hickey said the limo had "started down an incline toward the overpass" when a sound caught his attention: "I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my attention except people shouting and cheering." Bennett said he first heard a sound like a firecracker at the exact time a shot hit JFK in the back. Like Hickey, he said the limo had started down a grade and the crowd was "very sparse." O'Donnell sajd they had "turned on the grass plot" and there were "four or five people there." Whatever this adds up to, it doesn't sound like a pre-Z148 shot.
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My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others.
The LHO-Baker-Truly lunchroom encounter occurred as depicted, maybe 90 seconds after the JFKA. Sandra Styles has indicated she and Adams lingered at the windows after the JFKA.
My best guess is LHO fired three shots in the direction of the JFK limo. In earnest or deliberate misses as part of a false flag op, I don't know. There were three wild misses of the JFK limo that day in DP by many witness accounts, although only three or four loud gunshots were heard. Three loud gunshots were heard inside the TSBD.
So who fired at the limo, but missed so badly they struck a manhole cover off of Elm, a curb by Tague and behind the limo on Elm St?
I don't know.
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So, who fired at the limo, but missed so badly they struck a manhole cover off of Elm, a curb by Tague and behind the limo on Elm St?
The curb near Tague may have been struck by a bullet fragment from the fatal head shot; the strike "behind the limo on Elm Street" may have been Oswald's missing-everything shot at hypothetical "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming (after a 17-second pause) at Z-133.
Just curious: Has "the manhole cover strike" been proved?
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Remember that some of these SS guys were hung over. They coulda been trying to blow breakfast.
Sad that only Governor Connally heard the first shot around Z-160 and reacted by looking towards the right until being hit at Z-225. Those SS clowns still didn't react.
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Tyler makes the same point about the SS agents:
"In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180. Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point. Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot."
This is also the same point outlined in the OP of "The First Shot" thread which debunks, beyond any reasonable doubt, the notion of an early missed shot.
Bump with respect to the Willis Girl slowing down/stopping. Just draw a line straight across Elm St from the light pole near the RL Thornton sign. There she is.
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Bump with respect to the Willis girl slowing down/stopping. Just draw a line straight across Elm St from the light pole near the RL Thornton sign. There she is.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Point being?
Did Rosemary think the early shot she'd heard had come from the light pole near the Thornton sign?
Why has she turned her head so far to her right in Z-162?
Note how Secret Service Agent George Hickey is leaning over and looking at the pavement in Z-162, as well.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z162.jpg
-- Tom
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My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others.
The LHO-Baker-Truly lunchroom encounter occurred as depicted, maybe 90 seconds after the JFKA. Sandra Styles has indicated she and Adams lingered at the windows after the JFKA.
My best guess is LHO fired three shots in the direction of the JFK limo. In earnest or deliberate misses as part of a false flag op, I don't know. There were three wild misses of the JFK limo that day in DP by many witness accounts, although only three or four loud gunshots were heard. Three loud gunshots were heard inside the TSBD.
So who fired at the limo, but missed so badly they struck a manhole cover off of Elm, a curb by Tague and behind the limo on Elm St?
I don't know.
"My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others."
There's actually no need to guess as there is photographic evidence supporting Adams' consistent claim that she raced away from the window she was looking out of, within seconds of the shooting. The crop of pic below was taken by Tom Dillard between 10 and 20 seconds after the shooting (Tyler has it at 11 seconds after the headshot). It shows two sets of windows. The right hand set, as we look at the picture, has an open window. It was through this window that Adams watched the motorcade. She must have been quite close to the window as she reported seeing Clint Hill running towards the limo and the limo speeding off towards the underpass, and this would have required her to look away to her right. She states that she decided to race outside before the limo had even reached the underpass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLtHXKwg/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
We can see that the window in question is empty.
There is no-one there a few seconds after the shooting. This is incredibly strong evidence supporting Adams' claims about racing off immediately. Another point is the Stroud document. In its essence it has Adams and Styles heading down the back stairs before Truly and Baker head up. In a scenario where Adams is hanging around on the 4th floor this cannot happen. The only scenario in which Adams and Styles can head down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither party to interact with the other, is for Adams and Styles to hit the stairs running seconds after the shots, for them to be running all the way down and out of the loading dock door in the north of the building before Truly and Baker get to the back of the first floor.
I believe that is what happened as it fits the majority of known evidence about this aspect of the case.
IMO the most interesting part of this is Adams hitting the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there. This is something Adams told the DPD, the Warren Commission and Mark Lane.
Adams is an excellent witness, an intelligent woman of truly impeccable character. It's time JFKA researchers started to take her seriously.
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"My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others."
There's actually no need to guess as there is photographic evidence supporting Adams' consistent claim that she raced away from the window she was looking out of, within seconds of the shooting. The crop of pic below was taken by Tom Dillard between 10 and 20 seconds after the shooting (Tyler has it at 11 seconds after the headshot). It shows two sets of windows. The right hand set, as we look at the picture, has an open window. It was through this window that Adams watched the motorcade. She must have been quite close to the window as she reported seeing Clint Hill running towards the limo and the limo speeding off towards the underpass, and this would have required her to look away to her right. She states that she decided to race outside before the limo had even reached the underpass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLtHXKwg/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
We can see that the window in question is empty.
There is no-one there a few seconds after the shooting. This is incredibly strong evidence supporting Adams' claims about racing off immediately. Another point is the Stroud document. In its essence it has Adams and Styles heading down the back stairs before Truly and Baker head up. In a scenario where Adams is hanging around on the 4th floor this cannot happen. The only scenario in which Adams and Styles can head down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither party to interact with the other, is for Adams and Styles to hit the stairs running seconds after the shots, for them to be running all the way down and out of the loading dock door in the north of the building before Truly and Baker get to the back of the first floor.
I believe that is what happened as it fits the majority of known evidence about this aspect of the case.
IMO the most interesting part of this is Adams hitting the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there. This is something Adams told the DPD, the Warren Commission and Mark Lane.
Adams is an excellent witness, an intelligent woman of truly impeccable character. It's time JFKA researchers started to take her seriously.
You seem to be saying that you think Adams and Styles started running down the stairs a few seconds before Oswald did and that they reached the rear of the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up the stairs. If you're right, and if that's Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white work colleague (I'm sure that it is) on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, if Calvery is speaking with a sitting or crouching, almost-bald Lovelady on the left side of said steps while suit-wearing Bill Shelley is simultaneously twirling out of the way of hard-charging Officer Baker in front of the steps, and if Officer Baker could hear, while running, Chief Curry's ordering men to the top of the Triple Underpass (later confusing it with his ordering all available men to the railway yard half-a-minute later), then Baker and Truly, after fiddling with the stuck elevator for a few seconds, probably started going up the stairs about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot, giving Adams and Styles enough time to get to the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up, and giving Oswald enough time to get to the second floor lunchroom before Truly, and then Baker, hit the second floor.
. . . . . . .
Me: Did Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles claim to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the TSBD?
Grok: No, neither Vicki Adams nor Sandra Styles claimed to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). While Adams' official Warren Commission testimony includes a statement attributing such a sighting to her, she later denied making that claim, asserting that the passage was inserted into the transcript without her knowledge. Styles, who descended the stairs with Adams, consistently stated that she did not see either man on the first floor upon their arrival.
Vicki Adams' Account
Adams and Styles were on the fourth floor watching the presidential motorcade when the shots were fired. Adams estimated they descended the rear stairs to the first floor within about 30–40 seconds after the last shot. In her Warren Commission testimony (6 H 388–395, March 23, 1964), Adams is quoted as saying: "I saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady... in the first-floor hallway. I spoke to them briefly." She also reportedly indicated their location on a diagram (CE 496). However, Adams later told researcher Barry Ernest (author of The Girl on the Stairs, 2011) that this statement was not hers. She claimed it did not match her phrasing or recollection, and it was absent from her original review of the testimony draft that afternoon in her office. The original stenotype tape of her testimony was destroyed by the Commission, despite promises to preserve it, leaving no verbatim record to verify her words. In a February 17, 1964, Dallas Police interview (conducted three months after the assassination, under suspicious circumstances including a claimed file destruction due to a fire), Adams first mentioned Shelley and Lovelady—details she had not provided in prior FBI or Secret Service interviews. Instead, Adams recalled seeing and speaking to a young African-American employee near the freight elevators on the first floor, asking if the president had been hit. She emphasized the stairs were quiet and empty during their descent.
Sandra Styles' Account
Styles, a co-worker who accompanied Adams down the stairs, was never interviewed by the Warren Commission but was questioned briefly by the FBI (CE 1381, part of a group employee questionnaire). The FBI focused on whether she knew Oswald and did not ask about her stairwell descent or first-floor observations. In interviews with Barry Ernest (late 1990s and 2000s), Styles corroborated Adams' timing: they descended almost immediately after the shots, with no one else on the creaky wooden stairs (she would have heard anyone above or below). On the first floor, she recalled seeing "a few people milling around," including a Black man, but explicitly stated: "Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there." She knew both men well and would have recognized them; she believed they were at the front entrance. When shown Adams' WC testimony quoting the Shelley/Lovelady sighting, Styles reacted: "I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that—if she did. They definitely weren’t there." She suggested the detail might have been added later.
Context and Contradictions
Shelley and Lovelady testified (6 H 331–334 and 6 H 337–348) that they were on the front steps during the shooting, left immediately afterward toward the railroad yard (as seen in Couch and Darnell films, ~20 seconds post-shots), and reentered via the rear door 3–10 minutes later. They claimed to have seen a young woman (possibly Adams) upon reentry but provided inconsistent details and no mutual confirmation of spotting her. The Warren Report (p. 152) used Adams' quoted testimony to argue she descended later than claimed (after Oswald and before Baker/Truly's ascent), dismissing her quick timing as mistaken. This avoided addressing why she heard no one (like Oswald) on the stairs if her descent overlapped his alleged path from the sixth floor.
Supporting evidence for the women's swift descent includes: Dorothy Garner (Adams' supervisor) watching them leave the fourth floor and enter the stairs without seeing Oswald; Joe Molina (seen by Adams at the front entrance shortly after); and the absence of anyone else on the stairs per Eddie Piper's testimony (though he was near elevators, not stairs).
Critics argue the inserted testimony created a false timeline to align with the Oswald-as-shooter narrative, as Shelley/Lovelady's delayed reentry contradicts an immediate first-floor sighting. Modern analyses (e.g., enhanced photos, witness timelines) reinforce that the women arrived before Shelley/Lovelady returned.
This conclusion draws from primary sources like WC volumes, FBI reports, and Ernest's interviews/book, which align across multiple accounts despite official discrepancies.
. . . . . .
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The curb near Tague may have been struck by a bullet fragment from the fatal head shot; the strike "behind the limo on Elm Street" may have been Oswald's missing-everything shot at hypothetical "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming (after a 17-second pause) at Z-133.
Just curious: Has "the manhole cover strike" been proved?
Not really, on the manhole cover shot, or on the shot that struck the asphalt behind the limo. Those are only witness statements. The curb shot strike by Tague was found to contain lead, but not copper. That may indicate, as you say, sone lead squished out of the Z-313 shot and struck the curb by Tague, and not a whole copper-jacketed bullet. That seem little far-fetched, but anything is possible.
One scenario is LHO was shooting to miss, while others shot for real.
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Not really, on the manhole cover shot, or on the shot that struck the asphalt behind the limo. Those are only witness statements. The curb shot strike by Tague was found to contain lead, but not copper. That may indicate, as you say, sone lead squished out of the Z-313 shot and struck the curb by Tague, and not a whole copper-jacketed bullet. That seem little far-fetched, but anything is possible.
One scenario is LHO was shooting to miss, while others shot for real.
There are oodles and gobs of KGB*-endorsed scenarios which, by definition, ultimately require beaucoup bad guys' to be involved, one way or another, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the planting of false evidence, the getting-away, the altering of photos, films, and x-rays, and the all-important (and ongoing!!!) cover up.
LOL!
*Today's SVR and FSB
A guy calling himself Herb Huskr at the "JFK Truth Be Told" FB page has shown that, given the fact that a bullet fragments from the fatal head shot dented the limo's chrome strip and cracked its windshield from the inside (leaving lead residue on the inside surface), if another largish fragment from the head shot had a slightly higher trajectory that the chrome-strip-denting fragment, it could have made it all the way to the curb, chipped it, and caused a bit of it to nick Tague's cheek.
I posted his article on another thread.
Have you read it, yet?
This is what Huskr posted at that other forum about a year ago:
There is some active discussion on another forum where I’m not a member about James Tague being hit, a curb mark, and what happened there.
This post is about some modeling and simulation results made awhile back evaluating a possibility to explain that Tague incident. I’ve not routinely discussed these details before because there is a back story that suggests that the modeling indicated how wrong I may have been with my initial gut feeling, and who wants to embarrass themselves by admitting they may have been misled by an erroneous gut-feeling bias.
The modeling was done a few of years back to try and prove this initial assumption:
A missing fragment from the z313 head shot could not have made it to Tague and created a shallow curb divot sending mortar/sand shards up and out, with some striking Tague in the cheek while he was standing nearby.
The envisioned scenario (initial gut feeling scenario) looked something like the following:
A disfigured lead, or lead with residual copper, bullet fragment flying forward escaped the limo from the third shot, at maybe 400 ft/sec, continued on to strike the curb with a compressive strike from a mostly horizontal trajectory, hitting at a reduced velocity around 200 ft/sec or so. This possibility was expected to be proven untenable and therefore likely wouldn’t happen.
Results:
Embarrassingly enough, the modeling predicted I would be wrong on every single account!
A fragment could have made it to Tague
The initial exit velocity would be more than twice the 400 ft/sec I was thinking
The final velocity would be even less than half the 200 ft/sec I was thinking
The angle at striking would be opposite, nearly vertical, instead of more horizontal like I thought
The curb strike likely presented a shearing force rather than the head-on compression force I expected
Talk about being wrong!
A crude curb-strike simulation was subsequently conducted to look at this because the predictions seemed so unusual.
Overall, the modeling and simulation indicated the scenario looked to be a real possibility, with a limo exiting fragment able to reach the curb by Tague and cause a spray of surface mortar that could hit him.
It is still possible the model is not accurate enough, or the fresh mark was not related to a bullet at all, but the modeling came up with numbers that were largely predictive of observations that others subsequently measured on such fragments, like what Lucian Haag found for fragment exit velocities in his simulated skull test shots experiments, and Carcano fragment ballistic coefficients.
Two options for base case trajectories for the incident are depicted on the attached graphs.
Based on the modeling and simulation, I now favor that a rogue fragment from the head shot caused the Tague incident.
I will try to make a link to a summary with more details for those interested in ballistics, etc.
The study details can be found here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CcnCy17Hwqqw3zBCK7ls8peA3DxmVzhk/view?fbclid=IwY2xjawMhX_FleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETE4VkU5OWFad0pmb1lWbEZuAR5CqzVfS_kwwhC_esko7HReWTqLEm4HwHGKLg7IekI23kvFroXG0TSxU8jJ7A_aem_AKz6PqzUnM04cOaEZOVC6g
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Not really, on the manhole cover shot, or on the shot that struck the asphalt behind the limo. Those are only witness statements. The curb shot strike by Tague was found to contain lead, but not copper. That may indicate, as you say, sone lead squished out of the Z-313 shot and struck the curb by Tague, and not a whole copper-jacketed bullet. That seem little far-fetched, but anything is possible.
One scenario is LHO was shooting to miss, while others shot for real.
That manhole cover had a cluster of Investigators around it immediately after the Kill Shot and several hours thereafter. There are photos taken from the sniper's nest that same afternoon showing a gaggle of "suits" still surrounding that manhole cover. I'm not saying there's bullet fragments or bullet trails on the ground there, but something held these guys attention for an extended period of time that day. Even a CSI Suitcase is pictured open and sitting on the ground in that same South grass section between Elm St. & Main St on 11/22/63.
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Mark Tyler favored me with the following response and kindly authorized me to post it. I continue to be impressed by someone who does work of this quality and yet remains refreshingly non-dogmatic about the JFKA.
I would never rule out any errors being made in the animation, so I'm always happy to fix any issues that people discover.
Having said that, I'm fairly confident that the animation is correct regarding the movements and timings of Officer Baker. We see Baker running towards the TSBD in the Couch and Darnell films, so this helps pinpoint him at that stage. As Couch panned down Elm Street towards events, he catches several things that overlap with other film evidence, such as cameraman David Wiegman running down the knoll and Hargis running back to his bike.
Helpfully these events were filmed by Mark Bell from another angle, which crucially had overlapping film of Charles Hester jumping up to get shelter in the pergola, which we see at the end of the Wiegman film. As that Bell film segment ends, we see Wiegman start to get up from being on the ground after he stops filming that segment. Then presumably a few seconds later he starts running down the hill, which is what we see in the Couch film. While this isn't a perfect overlap, I think it's likely that Wiegman immediately ran down the knoll, and didn't just stand there for 30+ seconds.
As you may know the Wiegman film ran continuously for about 25 seconds, starting just after shot 1 and before shot 2 (he started filming after he first heard the shots). All of this evidence combined pegs the position of Baker running to the TSBD about 25 seconds after the Z313 frame. It's possible that there are minor errors here and there in my calculations, but this will amount to a second or two at most during that time sequence, not the long gap that the forum thread suggests.
There's a lot of evidence to juggle here, so I hope I have covered the reasoning well enough. Some of these items are visible in the animation in the form of yellow flashes to mark where the film evidence matches what the animation shows.
I think the main problem in the forum thread is that they are referencing unreliable witness testimony rather than concrete evidence like the films. Thanks to all of the overlapping films it is possible to recreate much of what happened, which is what the animation is all about.
Sadly the films can't explain everything, such as when the shooting started and finished, but it many cases it can be used to debunk theories and witness testimony such as in this case.
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Mark Tyler favored me with the following response and kindly authorized me to post it. I continue to be impressed by someone who does work of this quality and yet remains refreshingly non-dogmatic about the JFKA.
I would never rule out any errors being made in the animation, so I'm always happy to fix any issues that people discover.
Having said that, I'm fairly confident that the animation is correct regarding the movements and timings of Officer Baker. We see Baker running towards the TSBD in the Couch and Darnell films, so this helps pinpoint him at that stage. As Couch panned down Elm Street towards events, he catches several things that overlap with other film evidence, such as cameraman David Wiegman running down the knoll and Hargis running back to his bike.
Helpfully these events were filmed by Mark Bell from another angle, which crucially had overlapping film of Charles Hester jumping up to get shelter in the pergola, which we see at the end of the Wiegman film. As that Bell film segment ends, we see Wiegman start to get up from being on the ground after he stops filming that segment. Then presumably a few seconds later he starts running down the hill, which is what we see in the Couch film. While this isn't a perfect overlap, I think it's likely that Wiegman immediately ran down the knoll, and didn't just stand there for 30+ seconds.
As you may know the Wiegman film ran continuously for about 25 seconds, starting just after shot 1 and before shot 2 (he started filming after he first heard the shots). All of this evidence combined pegs the position of Baker running to the TSBD about 25 seconds after the Z313 frame. It's possible that there are minor errors here and there in my calculations, but this will amount to a second or two at most during that time sequence, not the long gap that the forum thread suggests.
There's a lot of evidence to juggle here, so I hope I have covered the reasoning well enough. Some of these items are visible in the animation in the form of yellow flashes to mark where the film evidence matches what the animation shows.
I think the main problem in the forum thread is that they are referencing unreliable witness testimony rather than concrete evidence like the films. Thanks to all of the overlapping films it is possible to recreate much of what happened, which is what the animation is all about.
Sadly the films can't explain everything, such as when the shooting started and finished, but it many cases it can be used to debunk theories and witness testimony such as in this case.
Thanks Lance and Mark. This demonstrates quite clearly the potential errors that might be made when relying upon witness testimony that is not corroborated by more reliable evidence such as the photographic record.
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".......CONCRETE Evidence like the FILMS.". With a credibility scale such as this, why would any JFK Assassination govt body even question a single JFK Assassination eyewitness? Or believe a single JFK Assassination eyewitness? This is blatant "prejudice".
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(Title changed from "How long did it take Officer Baker to reach the TSBD's front steps after the 3rd shot?" to "There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.")
According to Mark Tyler's synchronized map of the motorcade, after the 3rd shot it took DPD officer Marion Baker 15 seconds to park his motorcycle.
Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, he heard over its radio Chief Curry say "send all available men to the railway yard (or words to that effect) and started running towards the TSBD front steps at that time.
Curry spoke that "railway yard" order twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time 15 seconds after that (because the dispatcher didn't fully understand the first transmission).
According to Mark Tyler's graphics alone:
12:30:00 -- The Z-313 fatal head shot occurs
12:30:15 -- Baker parks his motorcycle
12:30:20 -- Baker starts running towards the front steps
12:30:25 -- Baker arrives at the TSBD front door.
However,
According to a combination of Baker's WC testimony, the audio of the DPD radio transmissions as synced to the timing of the fatal head shot by Tyler, and Tyler's graphics as they pertain only to the 1) 12:30:00 fatal head shot, and 2) the 12:30:15 parking of Baker's motorcycle:
12:30:00 -- Fatal head shot
12:30:15 -- Baker parks his motorcycle
12:30:35 -- Curry transmits "get men up on the overpass"
12:31:05 -- Curry transmits "get men to the railway yard" and Baker, per his WC testimony, starts running towards the steps at this point (or perhaps 15 seconds later -- see below)
12:31:20 -- Curry re-transmits "get men to the railway yard," and Baker, possibly like the dispatcher now able to understand what Curry had said 15 seconds earlier, now starts running towards the steps.
. . . . . . .
If Baker started running towards the front steps 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, big/tall, black blouse and black headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed), who were standing about 90 feet down Elm Street from the front steps during the motorcade, had plenty of time to walk or run to the TSBD and be on the steps in time for Calvery to tell Lovelady and Shelley, about ten seconds before Baker arrived there, that JFK had been shot. (I say ten seconds because in Couch-Darnell we can see Lovelady and Shelley almost as far as the "Huge Gates" on the side of the building as they are (apparently) on their way to the railway yard / parking lot for a quick look-see, after which they returned to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door.
In this scenario, it's possible that Officer Baker didn't enter the TSBD until at least 70 seconds after the 3rd shot. Ergo Truly (who can be seen in the Darnell clip standing in front of the TSBD and watching Baker run past him), followed by Baker, may not have reached the 2nd-floor until at about a minute-and-a-half after the 3rd shot, thereby giving Oswald plenty of time to reach the lunch room on that floor before they got there.
If Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles lingered at the window, watching all the commotion going on below, and then talked with Mrs. Gardner for a grand total of about a minute and twenty seconds before starting down, Oswald, Truly and Baker may have been out of sight inside the lunchroom's "vestibule" when they were quickly traversing the corner of that floor on their way downstairs.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
Caveat:
Even if Baker conflated Curry's 12:30:35 "up on the overpass" with his 12:30:05 "to the railway yard?" transmission in his WC testimony as to when he started running towards the TSBD, it still doesn't jibe with what we see happening (e.g., Baker's running's juxtaposed with motorcade cars' and motorcycles actions) in the Couch-Darnell clip.
"Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, he heard over its radio Chief Curry say "send all available men to the railway yard (or words to that effect) and started running towards the TSBD front steps at that time.
Curry spoke that "railway yard" order twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time 15 seconds after that (because the dispatcher didn't fully understand the first transmission)."
Baker didn't mention the "railway yard".
Why don't you just look at his testimony and quote that?
Mr. BAKER - And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, “Get some men up on that railroad track.”
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir ; that was the last thing I heard.
Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
"...up on that railroad track."
Baker is surely paraphrasing Curry's radio transmission to get someone "on top of that triple underpass".
However, there still exists a contradiction between Baker's testimony and Mark's animation.
In the animation, Curry makes this transmission around 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot. In the animation Baker is in the TSBD building by this point.
As Mark points out, Baker's movements are embedded in a matrix of interlocking film/photographic information so I can see only two explanations for this discrepancy:
1] Baker was wrong
2] The radio transmissions are out of synch with the animation
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"My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others."
There's actually no need to guess as there is photographic evidence supporting Adams' consistent claim that she raced away from the window she was looking out of, within seconds of the shooting. The crop of pic below was taken by Tom Dillard between 10 and 20 seconds after the shooting (Tyler has it at 11 seconds after the headshot). It shows two sets of windows. The right hand set, as we look at the picture, has an open window. It was through this window that Adams watched the motorcade. She must have been quite close to the window as she reported seeing Clint Hill running towards the limo and the limo speeding off towards the underpass, and this would have required her to look away to her right. She states that she decided to race outside before the limo had even reached the underpass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLtHXKwg/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
We can see that the window in question is empty.
There is no-one there a few seconds after the shooting. This is incredibly strong evidence supporting Adams' claims about racing off immediately. Another point is the Stroud document. In its essence it has Adams and Styles heading down the back stairs before Truly and Baker head up. In a scenario where Adams is hanging around on the 4th floor this cannot happen. The only scenario in which Adams and Styles can head down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither party to interact with the other, is for Adams and Styles to hit the stairs running seconds after the shots, for them to be running all the way down and out of the loading dock door in the north of the building before Truly and Baker get to the back of the first floor.
I believe that is what happened as it fits the majority of known evidence about this aspect of the case.
IMO the most interesting part of this is Adams hitting the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there. This is something Adams told the DPD, the Warren Commission and Mark Lane.
Adams is an excellent witness, an intelligent woman of truly impeccable character. It's time JFKA researchers started to take her seriously.
Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.
Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.
Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.
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You seem to be saying that you think Adams and Styles started running down the stairs a few seconds before Oswald did and that they reached the rear of the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up the stairs. If you're right, and if that's Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white work colleague (I'm sure that it is) on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, if Calvery is speaking with a sitting or crouching, almost-bald Lovelady on the left side of said steps while suit-wearing Bill Shelley is simultaneously twirling out of the way of hard-charging Officer Baker in front of the steps, and if Officer Baker could hear, while running, Chief Curry's ordering men to the top of the Triple Underpass (later confusing it with his ordering all available men to the railway yard half-a-minute later), then Baker and Truly, after fiddling with the stuck elevator for a few seconds, probably started going up the stairs about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot, giving Adams and Styles enough time to get to the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up, and giving Oswald enough time to get to the second floor lunchroom before Truly, and then Baker, hit the second floor.
. . . . . . .
Me: Did Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles claim to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the TSBD?
Grok: No, neither Vicki Adams nor Sandra Styles claimed to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). While Adams' official Warren Commission testimony includes a statement attributing such a sighting to her, she later denied making that claim, asserting that the passage was inserted into the transcript without her knowledge. Styles, who descended the stairs with Adams, consistently stated that she did not see either man on the first floor upon their arrival.
Vicki Adams' Account
Adams and Styles were on the fourth floor watching the presidential motorcade when the shots were fired. Adams estimated they descended the rear stairs to the first floor within about 30–40 seconds after the last shot. In her Warren Commission testimony (6 H 388–395, March 23, 1964), Adams is quoted as saying: "I saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady... in the first-floor hallway. I spoke to them briefly." She also reportedly indicated their location on a diagram (CE 496). However, Adams later told researcher Barry Ernest (author of The Girl on the Stairs, 2011) that this statement was not hers. She claimed it did not match her phrasing or recollection, and it was absent from her original review of the testimony draft that afternoon in her office. The original stenotype tape of her testimony was destroyed by the Commission, despite promises to preserve it, leaving no verbatim record to verify her words. In a February 17, 1964, Dallas Police interview (conducted three months after the assassination, under suspicious circumstances including a claimed file destruction due to a fire), Adams first mentioned Shelley and Lovelady—details she had not provided in prior FBI or Secret Service interviews. Instead, Adams recalled seeing and speaking to a young African-American employee near the freight elevators on the first floor, asking if the president had been hit. She emphasized the stairs were quiet and empty during their descent.
Sandra Styles' Account
Styles, a co-worker who accompanied Adams down the stairs, was never interviewed by the Warren Commission but was questioned briefly by the FBI (CE 1381, part of a group employee questionnaire). The FBI focused on whether she knew Oswald and did not ask about her stairwell descent or first-floor observations. In interviews with Barry Ernest (late 1990s and 2000s), Styles corroborated Adams' timing: they descended almost immediately after the shots, with no one else on the creaky wooden stairs (she would have heard anyone above or below). On the first floor, she recalled seeing "a few people milling around," including a Black man, but explicitly stated: "Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there." She knew both men well and would have recognized them; she believed they were at the front entrance. When shown Adams' WC testimony quoting the Shelley/Lovelady sighting, Styles reacted: "I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that—if she did. They definitely weren’t there." She suggested the detail might have been added later.
Context and Contradictions
Shelley and Lovelady testified (6 H 331–334 and 6 H 337–348) that they were on the front steps during the shooting, left immediately afterward toward the railroad yard (as seen in Couch and Darnell films, ~20 seconds post-shots), and reentered via the rear door 3–10 minutes later. They claimed to have seen a young woman (possibly Adams) upon reentry but provided inconsistent details and no mutual confirmation of spotting her. The Warren Report (p. 152) used Adams' quoted testimony to argue she descended later than claimed (after Oswald and before Baker/Truly's ascent), dismissing her quick timing as mistaken. This avoided addressing why she heard no one (like Oswald) on the stairs if her descent overlapped his alleged path from the sixth floor.
Supporting evidence for the women's swift descent includes: Dorothy Garner (Adams' supervisor) watching them leave the fourth floor and enter the stairs without seeing Oswald; Joe Molina (seen by Adams at the front entrance shortly after); and the absence of anyone else on the stairs per Eddie Piper's testimony (though he was near elevators, not stairs).
Critics argue the inserted testimony created a false timeline to align with the Oswald-as-shooter narrative, as Shelley/Lovelady's delayed reentry contradicts an immediate first-floor sighting. Modern analyses (e.g., enhanced photos, witness timelines) reinforce that the women arrived before Shelley/Lovelady returned.
This conclusion draws from primary sources like WC volumes, FBI reports, and Ernest's interviews/book, which align across multiple accounts despite official discrepancies.
. . . . . .
There is little doubt Adams and Styles were racing down the back stairs seconds after the last shot, reaching the first floor and exiting the north door before Baker and Truly arrived at the elevators (the idea that Truly and Baker were unaware of two women on 3 inch heels clattering by them on a wooden floor a few feet away, is a non-starter).
According to Brennan, as the limo entered the underpass he looked back at the SN window and saw the shooter stood there apparently admiring his handiwork. Adams and Styles were already in motion at this point so there is zero chance anyone making their way down to the second floor lunchroom from the SN window would have been anywhere near them.
I, too, believed Barry Ernest's account of Adams insisting the mention of Lovelady and Shelley in her testimony had been added. That is, until I heard this "lost interview" posted by Tim Nickerson:
In it, we hear Vicki confirming, in her own words, her WC testimony - she raced down the stairs within seconds and saw Shelley/Lovelady on the first floor.
Not Barry Ernest's words - her words.
This made me do something not many researchers had thought to do - accept her testimony at face value.
This led to the quite startling conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
If we take the same-day affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady at face value we find that they were stood on the front steps at the time of the shooting, after the shots Lovelady stayed there while Shelley moved across the Elm Street extension where he met Gloria running the other way. Shelley went back to the front steps, from where Lovelady had not moved, and both men re-entered the building.
If we combine the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady we discover:
1] Both men were stood on the front steps when Gloria arrived there - this is a lie
2] Both men state it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to reach the steps - this is a lie
3] Both men then went across to the concrete spur that divides Elm Street from the Elm Street extension (which the both refer to as the "little old island") - this is a lie
4] Both made their way down the Elm Street extension to the railroad yard - this is a lie
5] Both men hung around the railroad yard for a while - this is a lie
6] Both men reentered the TSBD building through the west door - this is a lie
7] At some point after they had left the front steps, at least 3 minutes after Gloria had arrived there, both men report Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building - this is a lie
Your own research demonstrates that Gloria was at the front steps approximately 20 - 30 seconds after the head shot. If true, it proves that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PcvKsxS/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Seconds after this image was captured Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD building.
While Truly spoke with Baker in the lobby, Lovelady and Shelley made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams (who also spoke to them). The two white men Baker reported seeing near the elevators on the first floor were Shelley and Lovelady.
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Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.
Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.
Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.
Where are Styles and Adams in the Dillard pic?
How does the Stroud document work if Adams and Styles went down the stairs after Baker and Truly had come up them, with neither party encountering the other?
Your slur on Adams' character is unwarranted. It was you who posted the "lost interview" in which Adams, to a large extent, reiterated her WC account - that she had raced down to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady there. I wonder what Mr Ernest made of this interview as it completely contradicted his account of Adams' words.
The lost interview is her own words.
I would like to hear the recordings of the interview Barry Ernest had with Adams.
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Where are Styles and Adams in the Dillard pic?
The Dillard Pic only shows the Southeast windows of the fifth and sixth floors.
How does the Stroud document work if Adams and Styles went down the stairs after Baker and Truly had come up them, with neither party encountering the other?
Dorothy Garner saw Baker and Truly on the fourth floor and assumed that they had just come up, when they were actually on their way done. That's my best guess.
Your slur on Adams' character is unwarranted. It was you who posted the "lost interview" in which Adams, to a large extent, reiterated her WC account - that she had raced down to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady there. I wonder what Mr Ernest made of this interview as it completely contradicted his account of Adams' words.
The lost interview is her own words.
I would like to hear the recordings of the interview Barry Ernest had with Adams.
You slur Lovelady, Shelley and anyone else who gets in the way of your narrative. Adams was not a good witness. If what Barry Ernest says is true, she was not very credible either. Witnesses are often wrong about timing and other minor things. Adams was making claims about others that were defamatory. "Her transcript was altered. Leavelle lied about things, etc.."
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Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.
Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.
Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.
If Vicki Adams lied at some point, did she do so 1) hoping to get us to believe Oswald killed JFK, 2) to get us to believe he was just a "patsy," or 3) for some other reason?
If she was telling the truth that she had seen Lovelady and/or Shelley on the first floor after she and Styles had come down to it almost immediately after the final shot (i.e., too soon for Lovelady and Shelley to have already returned to the TSBD after their little jaunt down to the railway yard / parking lot), what are the implications, if any, regarding when Truly and Baker started going up the stairs, when Oswald slipped into the second-floor lunchroom, and whether or not that's Lovelady and/or Shelly walking/running towards the railway yard / parking lot in Couch-Darnell, etc?
Conversely, what are the implications regarding the above if she never said that in her deposition, but someone put it in there?
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If Vicki Adams lied at some point, did she do so 1) hoping to get us to believe Oswald killed JFK, 2) to get us to believe he was just a "patsy," or 3) for some other reason?
If she was telling the truth that she had seen Lovelady and/or Shelley on the first floor after she and Styles had come down to it almost immediately after the final shot (i.e., too soon for Lovelady and Shelley to have already returned to the TSBD after their little jaunt down to the railway yard / parking lot), what are the implications regarding when Truly and Baker started going up the stairs, when Oswald slipped into the second-floor lunchroom, and whether or not that's Lovelady and/or Shelly walking/running towards the railway yard / parking lot in Couch-Darnell, etc?
Regarding your first question, you're asking me to speculate. I'm not interested in doing so. Your second question doesn't make sense.
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Regarding your first question, you're asking me to speculate. I'm not interested in doing so. Your second question doesn't make sense.
1) Does Adams' WC testimony regarding her seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor support a CT interpretation of the JFKA, or does it support a LN interpretation of the JFKA?
2) How does my second question not make sense?
Note: I just now added "if any."
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1) Does Adams' WC testimony regarding her seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor support a CT interpretation of the JFKA, or does it support a LN interpretation of the JFKA?
2) How does my second question not make sense?
Note: I just now added "if any."
Adams seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor does not support a CT interpretation. That encounter has no implications regarding when Truly and Baker started going up the stairs or when Oswald slipped into the second-floor lunchroom.
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That encounter has no implications regarding when Truly and Baker started going up the stairs or when Oswald slipped into the second-floor lunchroom.
It does, though, if Adams' and Syles' not running into Truly and Baker on the stairs was due either to 1) "fireball" Adams' and Styles' reaching the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up them, or 2) Truly's and Baker's (and Oswald's) being out of sight in the second-floor lunchroom's "vestibule" while previously "lollygagging" Adams and Styles were quickly traversing from one stairwell to the other in the nearby second-floor corner.
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The Dillard Pic only shows the Southeast windows of the fifth and sixth floors.
I have to say, Tim, I'm really quite surprised that you are unaware of Tom Dillard's pic:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76yfr6R6/Dillardgood.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Clearly, what you are referring to is a different close crop of this picture.
I wonder what picture you thought I was posting.
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRSTLYJc/tsbd-4th-floor-planredbox.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Below is a closer crop of this picture. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7dzfLx1/dillard-just-after-fullredbox.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. As we know, Adams, Styles and Garner left office after the shooting. It appears they have left by the time this pic was taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):
"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."
Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. This ties in with Adams' claim that she decided to race downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass. The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot.
Hopefully, now you are aware of your mistake regarding the Dillard pic, you will concede that this pic is, indeed, strong evidence confirming Adams' version of events.
Dorothy Garner saw Baker and Truly on the fourth floor and assumed that they had just come up, when they were actually on their way done. That's my best guess.
This is so lame it should be put down.
You are wrong about the Dillard pic and you are wrong about the Stroud document. You clearly have your own agenda and are willing to post any old nonsense rather than examine the evidence.
What do you think about the Dillard pic evidence now you understand what's happening and how does this affect your lame interpretation of the Stroud document?
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I have to say, Tim, I'm really quite surprised that you are unaware of Tom Dillard's pic:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76yfr6R6/Dillardgood.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Clearly, what you are referring to is a different close crop of this picture.
I wonder what picture you thought I was posting.
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRSTLYJc/tsbd-4th-floor-planredbox.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Below is a closer crop of this picture. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7dzfLx1/dillard-just-after-fullredbox.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. As we know, Adams, Styles and Garner left office after the shooting. It appears they have left by the time this pic was taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fybjJNSz/Dillardclosecrop-Adams.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):
"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."
Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. This ties in with Adams' claim that she decided to race downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass. The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot.
Hopefully, now you are aware of your mistake regarding the Dillard pic, you will concede that this pic is, indeed, strong evidence confirming Adams' version of events.
This is so lame it should be put down.
You are wrong about the Dillard pic and you are wrong about the Stroud document. You clearly have your own agenda and are willing to post any old nonsense rather than examine the evidence.
What do you think about the Dillard pic evidence now you understand what's happening and how does this affect your lame interpretation of the Stroud document?
Well, I wasn't sure about the Dillard photo. I was thinking that you had the Powell pic in mind.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Powell%20Gallery
The Dillard photo was likely taken within 20 seconds of the shooting. You are assuming that the girls would have remained right at the window after the shooting. Where is Elsie Dorman in that photo. Did she leave the fourth floor right away as well? Who is that in the window on the left? Keep in mind that Dorman filmed the motorcade through that half-open window.
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Is there someone in the next window along?
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Since we know that unless Oswald had a Star trek transporter device it is impossible that numerous witnesses would have have missed seeing and hearing Oswald sprint from the sixth floor down the stairs and meet Baker and Truly on the second floor soon after the assassination, it is entirely irrelevant if it took Baker 74 seconds or 100 seconds or 200 seconds to make the encounter- Correct?
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"It's impossible that Oswald shot JFK, because if he had, numerous witnesses would have seen or heard him as he ran down the stairs from the sixth floor to the second floor. Therefore, it's entirely irrelevant whether it took Baker 74 seconds, 100 seconds or 200 seconds to get to said lunch room."
Is that what you're trying to say?
If so, what witnesses other than Adams, Styles, Truly, Baker, and possibly Mrs. Gardner, would have seen or heard him as he ran down the stairs?
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Why are you lone nutters so confrontationally snarky? Since I know I am right, I have no ill will against those who are wrong- Jarman, Norman and Williams did not hear someone above them high tail it out of there through the very inconsequential floor boards- And Dougherty, Adams, Styles and Reid at a minimum would have seen ANYONE sprinting down the stairs from the sixth floor to the second floor- Yes, I know there are bizarre posnerian ways to marginalize these witnesses but I assume you know that those are fabrications intended for people who have zero institutional knowledge-
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And regarding my Post, I will love to hear your take on why Ruth Paine is actually the Dallas version of Mother Theresa when you get a chance...
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since we know that unless Oswald had a Star trek transporter device it is impossible that numerous witnesses would have have missed seeing and hearing Oswald sprint from the sixth floor down the stairs and meet Baker and Truly on the second floor soon after the assassination, it is entirely irrelevant if it took Baker 74 seconds or 100 seconds or 200 seconds to make the encounter- Correct?
The true timeline of the Officer Baker/Oswald encounter is important as it reflects on the Credibility of the witness(es). This includes Roy Truly.
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why are you lone nutters so confrontationally snarky? Since I know I am right, I have no ill will against those who are wrong- Jarman, Norman and Williams did not hear someone above them high tail it out of there through the very inconsequential floor boards- And Dougherty, Adams, Styles and Reid at a minimum would have seen ANYONE sprinting down the stairs from the sixth floor to the second floor- Yes, I know there are bizarre posnerian ways to marginalize these witnesses but I assume you know that those are fabrications intended for people who have zero institutional knowledge.
"Very inconsequential" floor boards that were capable of supporting thousands of pounds of books in the Sniper's Nest area, alone?
Mrs. Reid wasn't in her office when Oswald came down the stairs -- she was either out front with Occus Campbell, or coming up the stairs at the other end of the building.
The only big mistake Gerald Posner made was befriending KGB false defector Yuri Nosenko -- because he was telling him what he (and J. Edgar Hoover!!!) wanted to hear -- that the KGB had absolutely nothing to do with "abnormal-looking" Lee Harvey Oswald during the two-and-one-half years the former sharpshooting Marine U-2 radar operator lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk.
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since we know that unless Oswald had a Star trek transporter device it is impossible that numerous witnesses would have have missed seeing and hearing Oswald sprint from the sixth floor down the stairs and meet Baker and Truly on the second floor soon after the assassination, it is entirely irrelevant if it took Baker 74 seconds or 100 seconds or 200 seconds to make the encounter- Correct?
How it is impossible that numerous witnesses would have have missed seeing and hearing Oswald sprint from the sixth floor down the stairs and meet Baker and Truly on the second floor soon after the assassination? Who were the numerous witnesses that should have seen him?
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Yes- You cherry pick meaningless asides which leaves the main issue unaddressed, as a lone nutter must- There is no way someone ran down those stairs in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and wasnt seen- You know it and I know it- So Oswald was not on the sixth floor after 11.55 AM and you know that too- So Oswald did not shoot the President - Oh crap, what is a lone nutter gonna say now?
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why are you lone nutters so confrontationally snarky? Since I know I am right, I have no ill will against those who are wrong- Jarman, Norman and Williams did not hear someone above them high tail it out of there through the very inconsequential floor boards- And Dougherty, Adams, Styles and Reid at a minimum would have seen ANYONE sprinting down the stairs from the sixth floor to the second floor- Yes, I know there are bizarre posnerian ways to marginalize these witnesses but I assume you know that those are fabrications intended for people who have zero institutional knowledge-
Very inconsequential floor boards? What exactly were those floor boards? We don't know where Dougherty was when Oswald descended. All we know is that he was somewhere on the fifth floor. Adams and Styles were still on the South side of the fourth floor. Reid saw Oswald on the second floor, after Baker and Truly had already seen him.
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Yes- You cherry pick meaningless asides which leaves the main issue unaddressed, as a lone nutter must- There is no way someone ran down those stairs in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and wasnt seen- You know it and I know it- So Oswald was not on the sixth floor after 11.55 AM and you know that too- So Oswald did not shoot the President - Oh crap, what is a lone nutter gonna say now?
I know that Oswald descended those stairs in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. There was no one else on or near the stairs between the sixth and second floors when he descended.
Oswald assassinated JFK. There is no reasonable doubt about it.
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"Very inconsequential" floor boards that were capable of supporting thousands of pounds of books in the Sniper's Nest area, alone?
Mrs. Reid wasn't in her office when Oswald came down the stairs -- she was either out front with Occus Campbell, or coming up the stairs at the other end of the building.
The only big mistake Gerald Posner made was befriending KGB false defector Yuri Nosenko -- because he was telling him what he (and J. Edgar Hoover!!!) wanted to hear -- that the KGB had absolutely nothing to do with "abnormal-looking" Lee Harvey Oswald during the two-and-one-half years the former sharpshooting Marine U-2 radar operator lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk.
You're forgetting the claim of hearing ejected Carcano Hulls falling onto that same floor/ceiling above them. If these guys can hear Hulls falling onto the Ceiling/Floor above them, they should also be able to hear Oswald scampering out of the sniper's nest.
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You're forgetting the claim of hearing ejected Carcano Hulls falling onto that same floor/ceiling above them. If these guys can hear Hulls falling onto the Ceiling/Floor above them, they should also be able to hear Oswald scampering out of the sniper's nest.
Unless Oswald could hear them talking / laughing before the motorcade appeared, and then after he killed JFK, he walked quietly out of his Sniper's nest so they wouldn't hear him.
D'oh!
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I know that Oswald descended those stairs in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. There was no one else on or near the stairs between the sixth and second floors when he descended.
Oswald assassinated JFK. There is no reasonable doubt about it.
"I Know"? You are respected for sticking to the evidence. What happened? There is No Evidence putting Oswald inside the sniper's nest at 12:30. There's also No Evidence of Oswald being on the stairs immediately following the Kill Shot.
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You're forgetting the claim of hearing ejected Carcano Hulls falling onto that same floor/ceiling above them. If these guys can hear Hulls falling onto the Ceiling/Floor above them, they should also be able to hear Oswald scampering out of the sniper's nest.
Norman heard the shells hitting the floor above him. Neither of the other two heard them. Metal objects hitting the floor would make more noise than someone walking on that floor. Also, immediately after the shooting, the noise on the outside would have ramped up.
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"I Know"? You are respected for sticking to the evidence. What happened? There is No Evidence putting Oswald inside the sniper's nest at 12:30. There's also No Evidence of Oswald being on the stairs immediately following the Kill Shot.
Comrade Storing,
If he was in the Sniper's Nest at 12:30, what kind of evidence would you expect there to be?
Film footage?
Multiple eyewitnesses?
-- Tom
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Unless Oswald could hear them talking / laughing before the motorcade appeared, and then after he killed JFK, he walked quietly out of his Sniper's nest so they wouldn't hear him.
D'oh!
Really? So, Oswald hears these guys only feet below him, yet he then goes ahead and fires the rifle 3 times? And tiptoe's outta the sniper's nest? Please think things through.
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There are multiple witnesses who saw one or two people on the sixth floor proceeding the assassination - through a partially open window with a shooter knelling only one witness says it was someone like oswald - arent any of the other witnesses worthy of consideration? Why Oswald not up there at 12.10? How would he know the motorcade was running at least 15 minutes late-
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Norman heard the shells hitting the floor above him. Neither of the other two heard them. Metal objects hitting the floor would make more noise than someone walking on that floor. Also, immediately after the shooting, the noise on the outside would have ramped up.
You ever worked with/around plywood? You're claiming a person can hear a hull hitting that floor vs Not hear 150 lb man moving across it? Please stick with the Evidence. That's your strong suit.
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"I Know"? You are respected for sticking to the evidence. What happened? There is No Evidence putting Oswald inside the sniper's nest at 12:30. There's also No Evidence of Oswald being on the stairs immediately following the Kill Shot.
The shells found in the sniper's nest had been fired in Oswald's Carcano. That rifle was found on the sixth floor. Oswald's prints were found on boxes in the sniper's nest. His prints were on the long paper sack found in the sniper's nest. Fibers in that sack were matched to some of the fibers that he kept his rifle wrapped in. Oswald had no alibi for the time of the shooting. The last place that he was seen by anyone prior to the shooting was on the sixth floor. That taken together puts Oswald in the sniper's nest at 12:30 and on the stairs within 30 seconds after the shooting.
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Really? So, Oswald hears these guys only feet below him, yet he then goes ahead and fires the rifle 3 times? And tiptoe's outta the sniper's nest? P
He's a self-described Marxist with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to Advance the Dialectic, hasten the downfall of late-stage capitalism, and destroy dirty-rotten American Imperialism!!!
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You ever worked with/around plywood? You're claiming a person can hear a hull hitting that floor vs Not hear 150 lb man moving across it? Please stick with the Evidence. That's your strong suit.
I have worked with and around plywood. A person can hear a hull hitting that floor vs Not hear 139 lb man moving across it. You're not thinking straight on this at all. Someone fired 3 shots from the sniper's nest at 12:30. That person then exited the sniper's nest and the sixth floor. That he wasn't heard exiting does not negate the fact that he did.
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The shells found in the sniper's nest had been fired in Oswald's Carcano. That rifle was found on the sixth floor. Oswald's prints were found on boxes in the sniper's nest. His prints were on the long paper sack found in the sniper's nest. Fibers in that sack were matched to some of the fibers that he kept his rifle wrapped in. Oswald had no alibi for the time of the shooting. The last place that he was seen by anyone prior to the shooting was on the sixth floor. That taken together puts Oswald in the sniper's nest at 12:30 and on the stairs within 30 seconds after the shooting.
You have returned to the Evidence and abandoned these 3 guys hearing hulls hitting the ceiling/floor above them, yet they do Not hear the shooter vacating the sniper's nest. Very good. Those same 3 guys underneath the shooter are also eyewitnesses that refute the Max Holland 11+ seconds elapsed firing time. Anybody that has adopted Holland's 11+ seconds elapsed firing time needs to avoid these 3 eyewitnesses. For the 3 of them to just sit there for 11+ seconds with everything going down within mere feet of them is just not plausible, nor did they testify as to this extended firing time for the 3 shots. And remember that Holland claims the 1st shot was fired from a standing position. This would require the shooter to move around inside the sniper's nest in order to sit down and reacquire the moving target. All of this would generate even more noise within feet of these 3 eyewitnesses.
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Well, I wasn't sure about the Dillard photo. I was thinking that you had the Powell pic in mind.
I'm glad I could introduce you to such an important piece of evidence but your response to this new evidence is really unimpressive. You've barely given it any thought at all and your knee-jerk reaction speaks of someone whose mind is already made up regardless of any new evidence, no matter how significant that evidence is.
The Dillard photo was likely taken within 20 seconds of the shooting. You are assuming that the girls would have remained right at the window after the shooting. Where is Elsie Dorman in that photo. Did she leave the fourth floor right away as well? Who is that in the window on the left? Keep in mind that Dorman filmed the motorcade through that half-open window.
The Dillard photo was likely taken within 20 seconds of the shooting.
It was more like the 11 seconds Tyler has it in his animation.
This ties in with Dillard's account of taking the picture around 3 seconds after Bob Jackson told him there was a rifle in the window.
The fact all four women have moved away from this window indicates they moved away even more quickly than 11 seconds after the shooting.
This ties in with Adams' recollection that she decided to race downstairs before the limo had even reached the triple underpass.
You are assuming that the girls would have remained right at the window after the shooting.
I don't need to assume anything.
Adams tells us what happened - within seconds of the shooting both she and Styles were racing towards the back stairs.
The Dillard pic confirms this.
The only thing I'm assuming is that the Dillard pic upsets your narrative concerning Adams which is why you are trying so desperately to bury such an important piece of evidence. Your piss-weak attempt to explain away the Stroud document also reveals a biased attitude towards the evidence.
Where is Elsie Dorman in that photo.
I don't know, Tim.
Where is she?
Is she the woman we can see looking out of the window?
This would make sense as there were four women in that area seconds earlier and we know from their various statements and testimonies that three of them left the office.
Maybe that's the explanation, Tim.
What do you think?
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You have returned to the Evidence and abandoned these 3 guys hearing hulls hitting the ceiling/floor above them, yet they do Not hear the shooter vacating the sniper's nest. Very good. Those same 3 guys underneath the shooter are also eyewitnesses that refute the Max Holland 11+ seconds elapsed firing time. Anybody that has adopted Holland's 11+ seconds elapsed firing time needs to avoid these 3 eyewitnesses. For the 3 of them to just sit there for 11+ seconds with everything going down within mere feet of them is just not plausible, nor did they testify as to this extended firing time for the 3 shots. And remember that Holland claims the 1st shot was fired from a standing position. This would require the shooter to move around inside the sniper's nest in order to sit down and reacquire the moving target. All of this would generate even more noise within feet of these 3 eyewitnesses.
All 3 guys didn't hear the shells hitting the floor above. Only Norman did.
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I'm glad I could introduce you to such an important piece of evidence but your response to this new evidence is really unimpressive. You've barely given it any thought at all and your knee-jerk reaction speaks of someone whose mind is already made up regardless of any new evidence, no matter how significant that evidence is.
My mind is made up based on the evidence. The observation that you have made with the Dillard photo is not significant evidence.
The Dillard photo was likely taken within 20 seconds of the shooting.
It was more like the 11 seconds Tyler has it in his animation.
This ties in with Dillard's account of taking the picture around 3 seconds after Bob Jackson told him there was a rifle in the window.
The fact all four women have moved away from this window indicates they moved away even more quickly than 11 seconds after the shooting.
This ties in with Adams' recollection that she decided to race downstairs before the limo had even reached the triple underpass.
Whether it was 11 seconds or 20 seconds is of little importance. It is does not tell us where each of the four women were when the photo was taken. Maybe that's Adams seen in the image. We don't know. Her recollection that she raced downstairs before the limo had even reached the triple underpass is contradicted by Sandra Styles and by her encounter with Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
You are assuming that the girls would have remained right at the window after the shooting.
I don't need to assume anything.
Adams tells us what happened - within seconds of the shooting both she and Styles were racing towards the back stairs.
The Dillard pic confirms this.
The only thing I'm assuming is that the Dillard pic upsets your narrative concerning Adams which is why you are trying so desperately to bury such an important piece of evidence. Your piss-weak attempt to explain away the Stroud document also reveals a biased attitude towards the evidence.
You are assuming that the girls would have remained right at the window after the shooting.
Adams was wrong.
The Dillard pic does not confirm that she and Styles were racing towards the back stairs. All that the Dillard pic confirms in that none of the four women were at the open window at that time.
Where is Elsie Dorman in that photo.
I don't know, Tim.
Where is she?
Is she the woman we can see looking out of the window?
This would make sense as there were four women in that area seconds earlier and we know from their various statements and testimonies that three of them left the office.
Maybe that's the explanation, Tim.
What do you think?
We know from the statement of Sandra Styles that they remained in the office on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting.
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All 3 guys didn't hear the shells hitting the floor above. Only Norman did.
Tim - Thanks for the Norman fact. Which 1 of the 3 had the falling dust in his hair?
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Tim - Thanks for the Norman fact.
You're welcome.
Which 1 of the 3 had the falling dust in his hair?
Bonnie Ray Williams.
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My mind is made up based on the evidence. The observation that you have made with the Dillard photo is not significant evidence.
Whether it was 11 seconds or 20 seconds is of little importance. It is does not tell us where each of the four women were when the photo was taken. Maybe that's Adams seen in the image. We don't know. Her recollection that she raced downstairs before the limo had even reached the triple underpass is contradicted by Sandra Styles and by her encounter with Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
You are assuming that the girls would have remained right at the window after the shooting.
Adams was wrong.
The Dillard pic does not confirm that she and Styles were racing towards the back stairs. All that the Dillard pic confirms in that none of the four women were at the open window at that time.
We know from the statement of Sandra Styles that they remained in the office on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting.
My mind is made up based on the evidence.
No, it's not.
You have interpreted this evidence based on your preconceived notions.
It's the worst possible approach to evidence.
Her recollection that she raced downstairs before the limo had even reached the triple underpass is contradicted by Sandra Styles and by her encounter with Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
The Dillard picture confirms Adams' assertion that she decided to race downstairs to find out what was going on before the limo had even reached the underpass. By the time Dillard took the picture Adams and Styles were already on their way with Garner following them into the back storage room.
That is the importance of the Dillard pic.
All of this is further confirmed by Dorothy Garner's recollection that Adams and Styles went down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up them, as recorded in the Stroud document. Another piece of evidence you treat with utter contempt. The only way it is possible for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, without either party being aware of the other, is for Adams and Styles to race away from the windows within seconds of the shooting.
Adams' recollection, the Dillard picture and the Stroud document support each other.
It has been demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. Adams saw them on the first floor, near the elevators, approximately one minute after the shooting. What were they doing there and why did they lie about their movements?
This is from Sandra Styles' email to Murphy:
"At the time, I first thought we went downstairs
quickly; but in thinking about it further, I came to the conclusion
that it was not immediately. I told an interviewer (FBI? not sure)
that when we got downstairs, the police were there so I assumed we
went down quickly; however, the interviewer told me that it took the
police 15-20 minutes to get to the Depository, so I accepted that we
must have taken longer to get downstairs than I first thought."
Hmmmm....she thought they went down quickly at first because she saw the police on the first floor but was told the police didn't arrive in the building for around 15 minutes so she figured it must have taken longer than she first thought ???
Unless, of course, the police she saw was Baker.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Tim.
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if someone was sprinting accross 2x6 floor boards that were decades old, right over the three mens heads, it is certain they would have heard somthing -
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if someone was sprinting accross 2x6 floor boards that were decades old, right over the three mens heads, it is certain they would have heard somthing -
Norman, Jarman and Williams ran down the stairs and no one saw or heard them. Adams and Styles ran down the stairs and no one saw them or heard them. Truly and Baker ran up the stairs and only Oswald saw them. It seems that the people in the building didn't hear things you think they should have.
And Norman, Jarman and Williams said they ran to the west side of the building right after the shots to get a better look as to what happened. They were at the opposite side of the floor when the shooter - that Norman heard right above him - would have gone down the stairs. The shooter at that window disappeared. How did he do this? And who do you think it was?
It also seems the boards weren't as creaky as you believe. Roy Lewis, one of the order fillers who worked in the building:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12776646196/Keydtl6ehd598dv/Lewis order filler.jpg)
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My mind is made up based on the evidence.
No, it's not.
You have interpreted this evidence based on your preconceived notions.
It's the worst possible approach to evidence.
Provide some specifics where I've interpreted evidence based on my preconceived notions.
The Dillard picture confirms Adams' assertion that she decided to race downstairs to find out what was going on before the limo had even reached the underpass. By the time Dillard took the picture Adams and Styles were already on their way with Garner following them into the back storage room.
That is the importance of the Dillard pic.
Nope. The Dillard pic confirms that none of the four women were at the open window at the time that the photo was taken. Nothing more than that.
All of this is further confirmed by Dorothy Garner's recollection that Adams and Styles went down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up them, as recorded in the Stroud document. Another piece of evidence you treat with utter contempt. The only way it is possible for Adams and Styles to go down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, without either party being aware of the other, is for Adams and Styles to race away from the windows within seconds of the shooting.
Adams' recollection, the Dillard picture and the Stroud document support each other.
We don't have Dorothy Garner's recollection that Adams and Styles went down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up. All we have is a document written by Martha Stroud saying that Garner said that Adams went down the stairs before Truly and a policeman came up. We are not told who Garner said that to.
It has been demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. Adams saw them on the first floor, near the elevators, approximately one minute after the shooting. What were they doing there and why did they lie about their movements?
You are pathetic. You need to believe that Shelley and Lovelady lied. In the Darnell film, we can see Lovelady walking westward after the shooting. It appears that Shelley is walking close to him traveling in the same direction. That confirms their testimonies that they went to the railway tracks after the shooting. And yes, that is Lovelady.
This is from Sandra Styles' email to Murphy:
"At the time, I first thought we went downstairs
quickly; but in thinking about it further, I came to the conclusion
that it was not immediately. I told an interviewer (FBI? not sure)
that when we got downstairs, the police were there so I assumed we
went down quickly; however, the interviewer told me that it took the
police 15-20 minutes to get to the Depository, so I accepted that we
must have taken longer to get downstairs than I first thought."
Hmmmm....she thought they went down quickly at first because she saw the police on the first floor but was told the police didn't arrive in the building for around 15 minutes so she figured it must have taken longer than she first thought ???
Unless, of course, the police she saw was Baker.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Tim.
Sandra Styles: "We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it out, and I'm sure it was Vicki's idea to go find out what was going on; therefore we wouldn't have waited a long time to make the decision to go downstairs. I am certain that we went to the public elevator first, but may not have waited long there either."
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Sean Murphy: Could she recall what her initial time estimate for their going to the stairs was - i.e. before she was told that the police didn't get to the Depository for 15-20 minutes?
Her answer: 'Not less than a minute, I thought more like a couple
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if someone was sprinting accross 2x6 floor boards that were decades old, right over the three mens heads, it is certain they would have heard somthing -
Is not.
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Norman, Jarman and Williams ran down the stairs and no one saw or heard them. Adams and Styles ran down the stairs and no one saw them or heard them. Truly and Baker ran up the stairs and only Oswald saw them. It seems that the people in the building didn't hear things you think they should have.
It also seems the boards weren't as creaky as you believe. Roy Lewis, one of the order fillers who worked in the building:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12776646196/Keydtl6ehd598dv/Lewis order filler.jpg)
You're forgetting about Norman hearing the carcano hulls hit the ceiling/floor above him. If that can be heard, a grown man moving across that same floor can be heard below too.
Those "sneaking up" hijinks must have happened on different floor(s)and/or outside of the sniper's nest corner. Besides, the stairwell is Kitty-Corner from the sniper's nest. Nobody is gonna go to all the trouble to climb that stairwell and then tip toe across the entire 6th Floor just to "Boo" somebody.
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Provide some specifics where I've interpreted evidence based on my preconceived notions.
Nope. The Dillard pic confirms that none of the four women were at the open window at the time that the photo was taken. Nothing more than that.
We don't have Dorothy Garner's recollection that Adams and Styles went down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up. All we have is a document written by Martha Stroud saying that Garner said that Adams went down the stairs before Truly and a policeman came up. We are not told who Garner said that to.
You are pathetic. You need to believe that Shelley and Lovelady lied. In the Darnell film, we can see Lovelady walking westward after the shooting. It appears that Shelley is walking close to him traveling in the same direction. That confirms their testimonies that they went to the railway tracks after the shooting. And yes, that is Lovelady.
Sandra Styles: "We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it out, and I'm sure it was Vicki's idea to go find out what was going on; therefore we wouldn't have waited a long time to make the decision to go downstairs. I am certain that we went to the public elevator first, but may not have waited long there either."
.....
Sean Murphy: Could she recall what her initial time estimate for their going to the stairs was - i.e. before she was told that the police didn't get to the Depository for 15-20 minutes?
Her answer: 'Not less than a minute, I thought more like a couple
Unless the currently accepted timeline on the Darnell Film is incorrect, Shelley and Lovelady had their own timeline Wrong. They both gave corroborating WC Testimony that it took them roughly 2-3 minutes to begin heading down the Elm St Ext. If they got that wrong, what else might they have been incorrect about? The other option would be we are Not seeing Shelley and Lovelady heading down the Elm St Ext on the Darnell Film.
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Unless the currently accepted timeline on the Darnell Film is incorrect, Shelley and Lovelady had their own timeline Wrong. They both gave corroborating WC Testimony that it took them roughly 2-3 minutes to begin heading down the Elm St Ext. If they got that wrong, what else might they have been incorrect about? The other option would be we are Not seeing Shelley and Lovelady heading down the Elm St Ext on the Darnell Film.
Lovelady and Shelley definitely had their timelines wrong when they testified in April 1964. Just as others had their timelines wrong when testifying months after the assassination. Benavides testified that he sat in his truck for a few minutes after seeing Oswald disappear around the corner of the house that the Davis girls lived in.
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Lovelady and Shelley definitely had their timelines wrong when they testified in April 1964. Just as others had their timelines wrong when testifying months after the assassination. Benavides testified that he sat in his truck for a few minutes after seeing Oswald disappear around the corner of the house that the Davis girls lived in.
Give the Shelley/Lovelady WC testimony of 2-3 minutes some thought. They also testified that they re-entered the TSBD via the very back dock where Roy Truly and the other managers parked their cars. It is possible that Adams/Styles saw Lovelady/Shelley after they RE-ENTERED the TSBD. This would then put Adams/Styles on the stairwell at roughly 3-4 minutes After the kill shot. Adams/Styles are also claimed to have seen DPD Cops down on the 1st floor when they saw Shelley/Lovelady. These cops inside the TSBD would also jibe with the Shelley/Lovelady claimed timeline of walking down the Elm St Ext 2-3 minutes after the kill shot.
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Give the Shelley/Lovelady WC testimony of 2-3 minutes some thought. They also testified that they re-entered the TSBD via the very back dock where Roy Truly and the other managers parked their cars. It is possible that Adams/Styles saw Lovelady/Shelley after they RE-ENTERED the TSBD. This would then put Adams/Styles on the stairwell at roughly 3-4 minutes After the kill shot. Adams/Styles are also claimed to have seen DPD Cops down on the 1st floor when they saw Shelley/Lovelady. These cops inside the TSBD would also jibe with the Shelley/Lovelady claimed timeline of walking down the Elm St Ext 2-3 minutes after the kill shot.
I'm sorry for being picky. But in the interest of accuracy, Sandra Styles did not recall seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
Thumb1: on the post overall though.
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I'm sorry for being picky. But in the interest of accuracy, Sandra Styles did not recall seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
Thumb1: on the post overall though.
Thanks for the correction. Shelley is not as firm with his testimony as Lovelady either. There are people that are just bad at measuring the passage of time. People have repeatedly been told those 2 guys walking down the Elm Ext on the Darnell Film are Lovelady & Shelley, but we do Not know that to be a fact. With this "urban legend" being attached to an image/Darnell Film, it has cavalierly been accepted as being fact.
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Provide some specifics where I've interpreted evidence based on my preconceived notions.
How else do you explain your interpretation of the Stroud document:
"Dorothy Garner saw Baker and Truly on the fourth floor and assumed that they had just come up, when they were actually on their way done. That's my best guess."
Your "best guess"?
Why not just accept it at face value?
Nope. The Dillard pic confirms that none of the four women were at the open window at the time that the photo was taken. Nothing more than that.
Adams claims she was on the move incredibly quickly. It takes the limo approximately 6 seconds to reach the underpass and Adams is already in motion. Adams and Styles head off together and Dorothy Garner, according to her interview with Ernest, follows behind them. This is why they are no longer visible in the Dillard pic.
Garner follows Adams and Styles into the storage area behind their offices and, although she doesn't actually see them heading down the stairs, she is close enough behind them to hear them clattering down the stairs in their high heels. Minutes later she reports that Truly and a police officer come up the same stairs Adams and Styles have descended (the Stroud document).
We don't have Dorothy Garner's recollection that Adams and Styles went down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up. All we have is a document written by Martha Stroud saying that Garner said that Adams went down the stairs before Truly and a policeman came up. We are not told who Garner said that to.
?? We don't have Garner's recollection, we just have a record of what she said ??
Do you realise what you're saying?
You are pathetic.
Now, now, Timothy.
Play nice.
You need to believe that Shelley and Lovelady lied.
?? Why do I "need" that ??
In the Darnell film, we can see Lovelady walking westward after the shooting. It appears that Shelley is walking close to him traveling in the same direction. That confirms their testimonies that they went to the railway tracks after the shooting. And yes, that is Lovelady.
Although the men you are referring to are walking in the same direction they are clearly not walking together.
Anyone can see that.
'Lovelady' starts off behind 'Shelley', quickly walks past him, and the gap just grows bigger and bigger in the few seconds of this film.
They are not together.
And, if you recall the lies of Shelley and Lovelady correctly, they were both on the steps when Gloria ran up to them (lie), this was 3 minutes after the shooting (lie), both men then went out to the "little old island" where Shelley turned and saw Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building more than 3 minutes after the shooting (lie). None of these lies are supported by the Darnell footage as you so desperately "need" to believe.
Sandra Styles: "We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it out, and I'm sure it was Vicki's idea to go find out what was going on; therefore we wouldn't have waited a long time to make the decision to go downstairs. I am certain that we went to the public elevator first, but may not have waited long there either."
.....
Sean Murphy: Could she recall what her initial time estimate for their going to the stairs was - i.e. before she was told that the police didn't get to the Depository for 15-20 minutes?
Her answer: 'Not less than a minute, I thought more like a couple
Sandra seems very confused. So much so she even jokes about whether she was even there or not. Her version(s) of events are not supported by the Dillard pic or the Stroud document or the recollections of Adams and Garner. They are not supported by anything.