There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.

[Lance Payette]

Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.

REPLY#5

Posted by yourself:

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

D'oh!

Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby.
You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.

From Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was

The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.

"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."

In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together.  If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.

So we are in agreement that it is, in fact, Curly and Moe? How come you didn't label Prayer Person as Oswald - are you wimping out on us? How many gunmen does Jake Maxwell see in that photo? (Looks to me like Truly has a rifle in a paper bag, Jake!)

[Tim Nickerson]

I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)

What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.

The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."

FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)

 • Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
 • Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
 • The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
 • The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
 • The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, becauseso many witnesses heard
 a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
 • A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.

It's possible that I haven't had enough coffee today. I did get that "Bursts" does not mean he thinks that there was more than one shot. I noted that it's not clear if he favors one or two shots for Burst Shot 3. He even has a 'zero shots option' for that Burst.  While I did misunderstand his "An Early Missed Shot" red herring, he does dismiss an early first shot. The circa Z160 or earlier shot.

[Dan O'meara]

Dear Dan,

I didn't create that photo with the red letters.

I'm guessing that either Sandy Larsen or Linda Giovanna Zambinini (sp?) did, but IDK for sure. Regardless, I don't think I ever said that was Shelley with his back to the camera.

Do you think that's Shelley?

If so, why?

I remain open-minded as to whether or not that's Joe Molina with whom Gloria Calvery is apparently talking with on the steps.

Do you think Mark Tyler's representation of what Lovelady did after Calvery spoke with him in the street (and continued on to the steps) is accurate, buddy?

Please read the post before replying.
This is REPLY#5 taken from the  "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread."
Your incorrect identification of Joe Molina on the steps is dealt with in this post.
Your incorrect identification of Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension is dealt with in this post.
FYI, I created the image with the red lettering.

"Do you think Mark Tyler's representation of what Lovelady did after Calvery spoke with him in the street (and continued on to the steps) is accurate, buddy?"

IMO Tyler's animation is a staggering achievement but it is not without it's minor flaws and the movement of Lovelady it represents is one of them.
Lovelady [84 in the animation] stays on the front steps after the shots and is still there when Gloria runs up to the front steps and tells everyone there that the President has been shot. He does not come off the steps to meet her in the street. There is no a scrap of testimony by anyone to suggest this is the case so it is hard to know why Tyler has depicted this.
Shelley came off the steps and moved to the concrete spur that divides Elm Street from the Elm Street extension. He met Gloria, who was running from the shooting she had just witnessed, back to the TSBD building. Shelley then came back to the building after doing so.
The picture with the red letters shows the moment Gloria was telling Lovelady about the shooting on the front steps. Shelley is seen near the bottom of the steps having just returned from the concrete spur.

Tyler includes Gloria's interaction with officer Joe Smith [80 in the animation] where she tells him that someone was shooting from the bushes near the pergola after which Smith races off down the extension.

[Tom Graves]

I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)

What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.

The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."

FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)

 • Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
 • Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
 • The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
 • The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
 • The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, because so many witnesses heard a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
 • A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.

IMHO, Tyler's got a lot of darn gall to call a missing-everything shot before Z-180 a "red herring."

To do so ignores Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 findings that five people in the limo and two others near it consciously reacted almost simultaneously to a loud sound around Z-145, not only suggesting that there was a missing-everything shot before Z-180, but that it occurred about three seconds earlier, i.e., around hypothetical "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.

https://www.acsr.org/post/estimating-occult-timing-of-surprise-gunshot-sounds-in-silent-film-via-observed-start-of-human-vol

[Dan O'meara]

IMHO, Tyler's got a lot of darn gall to call a missing-everything shot before Z-180 a "red herring."

To do so ignores Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 findings that five people in the limo and two others near it consciously reacted almost simultaneously to a loud sound around Z-145, not only suggesting that there was a missing-everything shot before Z-180, but that it occurred around hypothetical "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.

The Roselle/Searce nonsense is a joke. It's a bunch of unsubstantiated guesses dressed as science.
But let's not wander off down that yellow brick road.
Your identification of Lovelady and Shelley as the men wandering down the Elm Street extension is incorrect for many reasons.
As is your identification of Molina on the steps.
As is the whole premise for this thread.

[Lance Payette]

IMHO, Tyler's got a lot of darn gall to call a missing-everything shot before Z-180 a "red herring."

To do so ignores Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 findings that five people in the limo and two others near it consciously reacted almost simultaneously to a loud sound around Z-145, not only suggesting that there was a missing-everything shot before Z-180, but that it occurred about three seconds earlier, i.e., around hypothetical "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.

https://www.acsr.org/post/estimating-occult-timing-of-surprise-gunshot-sounds-in-silent-film-via-observed-start-of-human-vol

Voila! Thanks to the occult powers of my JFK Autograph Model Ouija Board, I have discovered that Mark Tyler is (or was) a member of the forum and participated quite genially on the thread by Marjan Rynkiewicz to the effect that the first shot was at Z105 or Z113, to wit:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html

I didn't read it all, I'll admit, because my eyes glaze over and the propellor on my beanie needs new batteries, but if Mark Tyler has "a lot of darn gall" it appears to be pretty well-thought-out gall. Maybe he's a KGB plant, ya think?

[Tom Graves]

Voila! Thanks to the occult powers of my JFK Autograph Model Ouija Board, I have discovered that Mark Tyler is (or was) a member of the forum and participated quite genially on the thread by Marjan Rynkiewicz to the effect that the first shot was at Z105 or Z113, to wit:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html

I didn't read it all, I'll admit, because my eyes glaze over and the propellor on my beanie needs new batteries, but if Mark Tyler has "a lot of darn gall" it appears to be pretty well-thought-out gall. Maybe he's a KGB plant, ya think?

Pardon my French.