There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.

[Lance Payette]

Mark Tyler favored me with the following response and kindly authorized me to post it. I continue to be impressed by someone who does work of this quality and yet remains refreshingly non-dogmatic about the JFKA.

I would never rule out any errors being made in the animation, so I'm always happy to fix any issues that people discover.

Having said that, I'm fairly confident that the animation is correct regarding the movements and timings of Officer Baker.  We see Baker running towards the TSBD in the Couch and Darnell films, so this helps pinpoint him at that stage.  As Couch panned down Elm Street towards events, he catches several things that overlap with other film evidence, such as cameraman David Wiegman running down the knoll and Hargis running back to his bike.

Helpfully these events were filmed by Mark Bell from another angle, which crucially had overlapping film of Charles Hester jumping up to get shelter in the pergola, which we see at the end of the Wiegman film.  As that Bell film segment ends, we see Wiegman start to get up from being on the ground after he stops filming that segment.  Then presumably a few seconds later he starts running down the hill, which is what we see in the Couch film.  While this isn't a perfect overlap, I think it's likely that Wiegman immediately ran down the knoll, and didn't just stand there for 30+ seconds.

As you may know the Wiegman film ran continuously for about 25 seconds, starting just after shot 1 and before shot 2 (he started filming after he first heard the shots).  All of this evidence combined pegs the position of Baker running to the TSBD about 25 seconds after the Z313 frame.  It's possible that there are minor errors here and there in my calculations, but this will amount to a second or two at most during that time sequence, not the long gap that the forum thread suggests.

There's a lot of evidence to juggle here, so I hope I have covered the reasoning well enough.  Some of these items are visible in the animation in the form of yellow flashes to mark where the film evidence matches what the animation shows.

I think the main problem in the forum thread is that they are referencing unreliable witness testimony rather than concrete evidence like the films.  Thanks to all of the overlapping films it is possible to recreate much of what happened, which is what the animation is all about.

Sadly the films can't explain everything, such as when the shooting started and finished, but it many cases it can be used to debunk theories and witness testimony such as in this case.

[Charles Collins]

Mark Tyler favored me with the following response and kindly authorized me to post it. I continue to be impressed by someone who does work of this quality and yet remains refreshingly non-dogmatic about the JFKA.

I would never rule out any errors being made in the animation, so I'm always happy to fix any issues that people discover.

Having said that, I'm fairly confident that the animation is correct regarding the movements and timings of Officer Baker.  We see Baker running towards the TSBD in the Couch and Darnell films, so this helps pinpoint him at that stage.  As Couch panned down Elm Street towards events, he catches several things that overlap with other film evidence, such as cameraman David Wiegman running down the knoll and Hargis running back to his bike.

Helpfully these events were filmed by Mark Bell from another angle, which crucially had overlapping film of Charles Hester jumping up to get shelter in the pergola, which we see at the end of the Wiegman film.  As that Bell film segment ends, we see Wiegman start to get up from being on the ground after he stops filming that segment.  Then presumably a few seconds later he starts running down the hill, which is what we see in the Couch film.  While this isn't a perfect overlap, I think it's likely that Wiegman immediately ran down the knoll, and didn't just stand there for 30+ seconds.

As you may know the Wiegman film ran continuously for about 25 seconds, starting just after shot 1 and before shot 2 (he started filming after he first heard the shots).  All of this evidence combined pegs the position of Baker running to the TSBD about 25 seconds after the Z313 frame.  It's possible that there are minor errors here and there in my calculations, but this will amount to a second or two at most during that time sequence, not the long gap that the forum thread suggests.

There's a lot of evidence to juggle here, so I hope I have covered the reasoning well enough.  Some of these items are visible in the animation in the form of yellow flashes to mark where the film evidence matches what the animation shows.

I think the main problem in the forum thread is that they are referencing unreliable witness testimony rather than concrete evidence like the films.  Thanks to all of the overlapping films it is possible to recreate much of what happened, which is what the animation is all about.

Sadly the films can't explain everything, such as when the shooting started and finished, but it many cases it can be used to debunk theories and witness testimony such as in this case.

Thanks Lance and Mark. This demonstrates quite clearly the potential errors that might be made when relying upon witness testimony that is not corroborated by more reliable evidence such as the photographic record.

[Royell Storing]

  ".......CONCRETE Evidence like the FILMS.". With a credibility scale such as this, why would any JFK Assassination govt body even question a single JFK Assassination eyewitness? Or believe a single JFK Assassination eyewitness? This is blatant "prejudice".   

[Dan O'meara]

(Title changed from "How long did it take Officer Baker to reach the TSBD's front steps after the 3rd shot?" to "There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.")

According to Mark Tyler's synchronized map of the motorcade, after the 3rd shot it took DPD officer Marion Baker 15 seconds to park his motorcycle.

Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, he heard over its radio Chief Curry say "send all available men to the railway yard (or words to that effect) and started running towards the TSBD front steps at that time.

Curry spoke that "railway yard" order twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time 15 seconds after that (because the dispatcher didn't fully understand the first transmission).

According to Mark Tyler's graphics alone:

12:30:00  -- The Z-313 fatal head shot occurs

12:30:15 -- Baker parks his motorcycle

12:30:20 -- Baker starts running towards the front steps

12:30:25  -- Baker arrives at the TSBD front door. 

However,

According to a combination of Baker's WC testimony, the audio of the DPD radio transmissions as synced to the timing of the fatal head shot by Tyler, and Tyler's graphics as they pertain only to the 1) 12:30:00 fatal head shot, and 2) the 12:30:15 parking of Baker's motorcycle:

12:30:00 -- Fatal head shot

12:30:15 -- Baker parks his motorcycle

12:30:35 -- Curry transmits "get men up on the overpass"

12:31:05 -- Curry transmits "get men to the railway yard" and Baker, per his WC testimony, starts running towards the steps at this point (or perhaps 15 seconds later -- see below)

12:31:20 -- Curry re-transmits "get men to the railway yard," and Baker, possibly like the dispatcher now able to understand what Curry had said 15 seconds earlier, now starts running towards the steps.

. . . . . . .

If Baker started running towards the front steps 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, big/tall, black blouse and black headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed), who were standing about 90 feet down Elm Street from the front steps during the motorcade, had plenty of time to walk or run to the TSBD and be on the steps in time for Calvery to tell Lovelady and Shelley, about ten seconds before Baker arrived there, that JFK had been shot. (I say ten seconds because in Couch-Darnell we can see Lovelady and Shelley almost as far as the "Huge Gates" on the side of the building as they are (apparently) on their way to the railway yard / parking lot for a quick look-see, after which they returned to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door.

In this scenario, it's possible that Officer Baker didn't enter the TSBD until at least 70 seconds after the 3rd shot. Ergo Truly (who can be seen in the Darnell clip standing in front of the TSBD and watching Baker run past him), followed by Baker, may not have reached the 2nd-floor until at about a minute-and-a-half after the 3rd shot, thereby giving Oswald plenty of time to reach the lunch room on that floor before they got there.

If Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles lingered at the window, watching all the commotion going on below, and then talked with Mrs. Gardner for a grand total of about a minute and twenty seconds before starting down, Oswald, Truly and Baker may have been out of sight inside the lunchroom's "vestibule" when they were quickly traversing the corner of that floor on their way downstairs.

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg


Caveat:

Even if Baker conflated Curry's 12:30:35 "up on the overpass" with his 12:30:05 "to the railway yard?" transmission in his WC testimony as to when he started running towards the TSBD, it still doesn't jibe with what we see happening (e.g., Baker's running's juxtaposed with motorcade cars' and motorcycles actions) in the Couch-Darnell clip.

"Baker testified to the Warren Commission that after he parked his motorcycle, he heard over its radio Chief Curry say "send all available men to the railway yard (or words to that effect) and started running towards the TSBD front steps at that time.

Curry spoke that "railway yard" order twice -- the first time was 65 seconds after the 3rd shot, and the second time 15 seconds after that (because the dispatcher didn't fully understand the first transmission)."

Baker didn't mention the "railway yard".
Why don't you just look at his testimony and quote that?

Mr. BAKER - And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, “Get some men up on that railroad track.”
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir ; that was the last thing I heard.
Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.

"...up on that railroad track."
Baker is surely paraphrasing Curry's radio transmission to get someone "on top of that triple underpass".
However, there still exists a contradiction between Baker's testimony and Mark's animation.
In the animation, Curry makes this transmission around 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot. In the animation Baker is in the TSBD building by this point.
As Mark points out, Baker's movements are embedded in a matrix of interlocking film/photographic information so I can see only two explanations for this discrepancy:

1] Baker was wrong
2] The radio transmissions are out of synch with the animation

[Tim Nickerson]

"My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others."

There's actually no need to guess as there is photographic evidence supporting Adams' consistent claim that she raced away from the window she was looking out of, within seconds of the shooting. The crop of pic below was taken by Tom Dillard between 10 and 20 seconds after the shooting (Tyler has it at 11 seconds after the headshot). It shows two sets of windows. The right hand set, as we look at the picture, has an open window. It was through this window that Adams watched the motorcade. She must have been quite close to the window as she reported seeing Clint Hill running towards the limo and the limo speeding off towards the underpass, and this would have required her to look away to her right. She states that she decided to race outside before the limo had even reached the underpass.



We can see that the window in question is empty.
There is no-one there a few seconds after the shooting. This is incredibly strong evidence supporting Adams' claims about racing off immediately. Another point is the Stroud document. In its essence it has Adams and Styles heading down the back stairs before Truly and Baker head up. In a scenario where Adams is hanging around on the 4th floor this cannot happen. The only scenario in which Adams and Styles can head down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither party to interact with the other, is for Adams and Styles to hit the stairs running seconds after the shots, for them to be running all the way down and out of the loading dock door in the north of the building before Truly and Baker get to the back of the first floor.

I believe that is what happened as it fits the majority of known evidence about this aspect of the case.
IMO the most interesting part of this is Adams hitting the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there. This is something Adams told the DPD, the Warren Commission and Mark Lane.
Adams is an excellent witness, an intelligent woman of truly impeccable character. It's time JFKA researchers started to take her seriously.

Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.

Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.

Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.

[Dan O'meara]

You seem to be saying that you think Adams and Styles started running down the stairs a few seconds before Oswald did and that they reached the rear of the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up the stairs. If you're right, and if that's Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white work colleague (I'm sure that it is) on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, if Calvery is speaking with a sitting or crouching, almost-bald Lovelady on the left side of said steps while suit-wearing Bill Shelley is simultaneously twirling out of the way of hard-charging Officer Baker in front of the steps, and if Officer Baker could hear, while running, Chief Curry's ordering men to the top of the Triple Underpass (later confusing it with his ordering all available men to the railway yard half-a-minute later), then Baker and Truly, after fiddling with the stuck elevator for a few seconds, probably started going up the stairs about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot, giving Adams and Styles enough time to get to the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up, and giving Oswald enough time to get to the second floor lunchroom before Truly, and then Baker, hit the second floor.

. . . . . . .


Me: Did Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles claim to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the TSBD?


Grok: No, neither Vicki Adams nor Sandra Styles claimed to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). While Adams' official Warren Commission testimony includes a statement attributing such a sighting to her, she later denied making that claim, asserting that the passage was inserted into the transcript without her knowledge. Styles, who descended the stairs with Adams, consistently stated that she did not see either man on the first floor upon their arrival.

Vicki Adams' Account

Adams and Styles were on the fourth floor watching the presidential motorcade when the shots were fired. Adams estimated they descended the rear stairs to the first floor within about 30–40 seconds after the last shot. In her Warren Commission testimony (6 H 388–395, March 23, 1964), Adams is quoted as saying: "I saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady... in the first-floor hallway. I spoke to them briefly." She also reportedly indicated their location on a diagram (CE 496). However, Adams later told researcher Barry Ernest (author of The Girl on the Stairs, 2011) that this statement was not hers. She claimed it did not match her phrasing or recollection, and it was absent from her original review of the testimony draft that afternoon in her office. The original stenotype tape of her testimony was destroyed by the Commission, despite promises to preserve it, leaving no verbatim record to verify her words. In a February 17, 1964, Dallas Police interview (conducted three months after the assassination, under suspicious circumstances including a claimed file destruction due to a fire), Adams first mentioned Shelley and Lovelady—details she had not provided in prior FBI or Secret Service interviews. Instead, Adams recalled seeing and speaking to a young African-American employee near the freight elevators on the first floor, asking if the president had been hit. She emphasized the stairs were quiet and empty during their descent.

Sandra Styles' Account

Styles, a co-worker who accompanied Adams down the stairs, was never interviewed by the Warren Commission but was questioned briefly by the FBI (CE 1381, part of a group employee questionnaire). The FBI focused on whether she knew Oswald and did not ask about her stairwell descent or first-floor observations. In interviews with Barry Ernest (late 1990s and 2000s), Styles corroborated Adams' timing: they descended almost immediately after the shots, with no one else on the creaky wooden stairs (she would have heard anyone above or below). On the first floor, she recalled seeing "a few people milling around," including a Black man, but explicitly stated: "Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there." She knew both men well and would have recognized them; she believed they were at the front entrance. When shown Adams' WC testimony quoting the Shelley/Lovelady sighting, Styles reacted: "I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that—if she did. They definitely weren’t there." She suggested the detail might have been added later.

Context and Contradictions

Shelley and Lovelady testified (6 H 331–334 and 6 H 337–348) that they were on the front steps during the shooting, left immediately afterward toward the railroad yard (as seen in Couch and Darnell films, ~20 seconds post-shots), and reentered via the rear door 3–10 minutes later. They claimed to have seen a young woman (possibly Adams) upon reentry but provided inconsistent details and no mutual confirmation of spotting her. The Warren Report (p. 152) used Adams' quoted testimony to argue she descended later than claimed (after Oswald and before Baker/Truly's ascent), dismissing her quick timing as mistaken. This avoided addressing why she heard no one (like Oswald) on the stairs if her descent overlapped his alleged path from the sixth floor.

Supporting evidence for the women's swift descent includes: Dorothy Garner (Adams' supervisor) watching them leave the fourth floor and enter the stairs without seeing Oswald; Joe Molina (seen by Adams at the front entrance shortly after); and the absence of anyone else on the stairs per Eddie Piper's testimony (though he was near elevators, not stairs).

Critics argue the inserted testimony created a false timeline to align with the Oswald-as-shooter narrative, as Shelley/Lovelady's delayed reentry contradicts an immediate first-floor sighting. Modern analyses (e.g., enhanced photos, witness timelines) reinforce that the women arrived before Shelley/Lovelady returned.

This conclusion draws from primary sources like WC volumes, FBI reports, and Ernest's interviews/book, which align across multiple accounts despite official discrepancies.

. . . . . .

There is little doubt Adams and Styles were racing down the back stairs seconds after the last shot, reaching the first floor and exiting the north door before Baker and Truly arrived at the elevators (the idea that Truly and Baker were unaware of two women on 3 inch heels clattering by them on a wooden floor a few feet away, is a non-starter).
According to Brennan, as the limo entered the underpass he looked back at the SN window and saw the shooter stood there apparently admiring his handiwork. Adams and Styles were already in motion at this point so there is zero chance anyone making their way down to the second floor lunchroom from the SN window would have been anywhere near them.

I, too, believed Barry Ernest's account of Adams insisting the mention of Lovelady and Shelley in her testimony had been added. That is, until I heard this "lost interview" posted by Tim Nickerson:

In it, we hear Vicki confirming, in her own words, her WC testimony - she raced down the stairs within seconds and saw Shelley/Lovelady on the first floor.
Not Barry Ernest's words - her words.
This made me do something not many researchers had thought to do - accept her testimony at face value.
This led to the quite startling conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
If we take the same-day affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady at face value we find that they were stood on the front steps at the time of the shooting, after the shots Lovelady stayed there while Shelley moved across the Elm Street extension where he met Gloria running the other way. Shelley went back to the front steps, from where Lovelady had not moved, and both men re-entered the building.

If we combine the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady we discover:
1] Both men were stood on the front steps when Gloria arrived there - this is a lie
2] Both men state it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to reach the steps - this is a lie
3] Both men then went across to the concrete spur that divides Elm Street from the Elm Street extension (which the both refer to as the  "little old island") - this is a lie
4] Both made their way down the Elm Street extension to the railroad yard - this is a lie
5] Both men hung around the railroad yard for a while - this is a lie
6] Both men reentered the TSBD building through the west door - this is a lie
7] At some point after they had left the front steps, at least 3 minutes after Gloria had arrived there, both men report Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building - this is a lie

Your own research demonstrates that Gloria was at the front steps approximately 20 - 30 seconds after the head shot. If true, it proves that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.



Seconds after this image was captured Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD building.
While Truly spoke with Baker in the lobby, Lovelady and Shelley made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams (who also spoke to them). The two white men Baker reported seeing near the elevators on the first floor were Shelley and Lovelady.

[Dan O'meara]

Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.

Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.

Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.

Where are Styles and Adams in the Dillard pic?

How does the Stroud document work if Adams and Styles went down the stairs after Baker and Truly had come up them, with neither party encountering the other?

Your slur on Adams' character is unwarranted. It was you who posted the "lost interview" in which Adams, to a large extent, reiterated her WC account - that she had raced down to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady there. I wonder what Mr Ernest made of this interview as it completely contradicted his account of Adams' words.
The lost interview is her own words.
I would like to hear the recordings of the interview Barry Ernest had with Adams.

[Tim Nickerson]

Where are Styles and Adams in the Dillard pic?

The Dillard Pic only shows the Southeast windows of the fifth and sixth floors.

How does the Stroud document work if Adams and Styles went down the stairs after Baker and Truly had come up them, with neither party encountering the other?

Dorothy Garner saw Baker and Truly on the fourth floor and assumed that they had just come up, when they were actually on their way done. That's my best guess.

Your slur on Adams' character is unwarranted. It was you who posted the "lost interview" in which Adams, to a large extent, reiterated her WC account - that she had raced down to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady there. I wonder what Mr Ernest made of this interview as it completely contradicted his account of Adams' words.
The lost interview is her own words.
I would like to hear the recordings of the interview Barry Ernest had with Adams.

You slur Lovelady, Shelley and anyone else who gets in the way of your narrative. Adams was not a good witness. If what Barry Ernest says is true, she was not very credible either. Witnesses are often wrong about timing and other minor things. Adams was making claims about others that were defamatory. "Her transcript was altered. Leavelle lied about things, etc.."