There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.

[Lance Payette]

Dear Lance,

Whom do you think the two men are that we see walking/running down the right side of Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot as Baker's running towards the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell?

-- Tom

Curly and Moe? Am I close?

[Tom Graves]

Curly and Moe? Am I close?

Is that your best guess, Counselor?

Which one seems to be wearing a suit and have a similar hairstyle as Bill Shelley, and which one seems to be wearing a bold-plaid shirt like Lovelady was wearing that day?

And where was Larry, btw?

Making out with Vicki Adams?

[Tim Nickerson]

Tyler's take on the shots is quite flawed. He calls an early missed shot a red herring. He has three shot bursts. Shot Burst 1 (Z180-Z40)is made up of two shots.  He has the first one missing at Z185 and Kennedy and Connally being hit by the other at about Z220. Shot Burst 2 (Z270-Z330) contains only one shot; the head shot. He says that if the shot was fired from the sixth floor window of the TSBD it would have been fired at Z310. For Shot Burst 3 (Z360-Z420), it's not clear if he favors one or two shots.

[Dan O'meara]

Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.

REPLY#5

Posted by yourself:

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

D'oh!

Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby.
You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.

From Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was

The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.

"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."

In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together.  If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.

The man you believe is William "Pompadour" Shelley is most likely Danny "Pompadour" Arce.

[Lance Payette]

Tyler's take on the shots is quite flawed. He calls an early missed shot a red herring. He has three shot bursts. Shot Burst 1 (Z180-Z40)is made up of two shots.  He has the first one missing at Z185 and Kennedy and Connally being hit by the other at about Z220. Shot Burst 2 (Z270-Z330) contains only one shot; the head shot. He says that if the shot was fired from the sixth floor window of the TSBD it would have been fired at Z310. For Shot Burst 3 (Z360-Z420), it's not clear if he favors one or two shots.

I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)

What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.

The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."

FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)

 • Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
 • Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
 • The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
 • The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
 • The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, because so many witnesses heard a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
 • A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.

[Tom Graves]

Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.

REPLY#5

Posted by yourself:

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.


Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby. You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.

From Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was

The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.

"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."

In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on, he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together.  If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.

The man you believe is William "Pompadour" Shelley is most likely Danny "Pompadour" Arce.

Dear Dan,

I didn't create that photo with the red letters.

I'm guessing that either Sandy Larsen or Linda Giovanna Zambinini (sp?) did, but IDK for sure. Regardless, I don't think I ever said that was Shelley with his back to the camera.

Do you think that's Shelley?

If so, why?

Credit: Chris Davidson

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1


I remain open-minded as to whether or not that's Joe Molina with whom Gloria Calvery is apparently talking with on the steps.

Do you think Mark Tyler's representation of what Lovelady did after Calvery spoke with him in the street (and continued on to the steps) is accurate, buddy?

[Lance Payette]

Your incorrect identification of the two men walking down the Elm Street extension has already been dealt with in the "Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?" thread.

REPLY#5

Posted by yourself:

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

D'oh!

Molina was already "in the lobby" when Gloria "came in" to the lobby.
You've got nowhere to go with that buddy so let that sink in.

From Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was

The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.
Let that sink in.

"And while you're at it, try to think of who it could be walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot other than virtually bald Billy Lovelady and William "Pompadour" Shelley."

In the video below (by Gerda Dunkel) it is clear that the two men are not with each other, they just happen to be walking in the same direction.
The man you believe is Lovelady starts off behind 'Shelley'. As the clip rolls on he overtakes 'Shelley' and is clearly walking a lot faster than him. By the end of the clip 'Lovelady' is well ahead of 'Shelley' and they are obviously not walking together.  If we could roll the clip on further the gap between the two men would just carry on increasing.

So we are in agreement that it is, in fact, Curly and Moe? How come you didn't label Prayer Person as Oswald - are you wimping out on us? How many gunmen does Jake Maxwell see in that photo? (Looks to me like Truly has a rifle in a paper bag, Jake!)

[Tim Nickerson]

I think you may have misread what he is saying (or maybe I am). Perhaps he should be invited to clarify his thinking here? (In fact, I'm going to do that right now.)

What I liked about his Technical Reference Manual is that it is both comprehensive and non-dogmatic.

The red herring (in his opinion) that he dismisses is: "A common red herring is where writers discuss a missed shot before Z180, and then within a few seconds a second shot around Z210-Z220."

FWIW, these are the points he says he is "certain" about. ("Bursts" does not mean he thinks more than one shot was necessarily fired in each such "burst." It's his way of dealing with the evidence in a non-dogmatic way.)

 • Only three bursts of gunfire were fired in Dealey Plaza because no witness heard a fourth burst.
 • Any witness who heard more than three shots grouped two or more shots together within just one burst (such as two shots fired within a second).
 • The Zapruder film identifies when two of these bursts were fired due to the reactions of the victims at Z225 and Z313, which means the sound of gun fire reverberated around Dealey Plaza at those points in time.
 • The first gunshot fired was after Z180 and became audible to the witnesses soon after. Most witnesses close to the Presidential limo associate this burst of noise with JFK’s reaction we see after Z225 of the Zapruder film.
 • The third burst of gunfire was fired some seconds after Z313, probably aroundZ360-Z400, becauseso many witnesses heard
 a shot or shots fired well after Z313.
 • A sniper was located in the sixth floor window of the TSBD who fired three shots, as reported by a number of witnesses including Amos Euins, Howard Brennan, and Harold Norman.

It's possible that I haven't had enough coffee today. I did get that "Bursts" does not mean he thinks that there was more than one shot. I noted that it's not clear if he favors one or two shots for Burst Shot 3. He even has a 'zero shots option' for that Burst.  While I did misunderstand his "An Early Missed Shot" red herring, he does dismiss an early first shot. The circa Z160 or earlier shot.