JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Dan DAlimonte on February 13, 2018, 03:52:15 PM
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What is your best Oswald was involved, theory?
Btw ... that's ... INVOLVED.
Not that he was duped and Not that he was really there to protect the President.
INVOLVED.
Let the sound of crickets begin.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337461/m1/1/?q=lee%20harvey%20oswald%20curtain%20rods
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What is your best Oswald was involved, theory?
Btw ... that's ... INVOLVED.
Not that he was duped and Not that he was really there to protect the President.
INVOLVED.
Let the sound of crickets begin.
Dan,
Opinions in this case are extremely polarized and have been for a long time. Meeting somebody half way implies that both parties shift towards the middle and a consensus. This is something I do not believe any LN will ever be prepared to do. In the time I have been active on this board, I have not seen one LN ever conceding anything, regardless of how silly their own position was. So, kudos if you can meet LNs more than half way, but I fear you'll be doing so without reciprocation.
As for Oswald, IMO it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for him to have been an 100% innocent bystander who was framed. In other words, he must have been involved in something.... but what? That's the big question, as far as I am concerned, and I seriously doubt I will ever get an answer.
It's my opinion that there are too many variables and unknowns to ever really determine with any kind of certainty what really happened and what Oswald's role in it was. The man was and still is a complete mystery!
One thing is certain though, at least in my mind, and that is that there are too many evidentairy problems to simply accept as true the official narrative concocted by the WC and in that sense I don't think I will ever be able to meet the LNs (more than) half way without them doing the same...... and that IMO will only happen after Hell has frozen over twice.
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What is your best Oswald was involved, theory?
Btw ... that's ... INVOLVED.
Not that he was duped and Not that he was really there to protect the President.
INVOLVED.
Let the sound of crickets begin.
Oswald set-up the Sniper's Nest/Nook. That was his Only designated function that day. He worked there, handled/moved boxes there, and could perform this task without drawing attention to his actions. He was instructed to wait inside the TSBD Breakroom for any further instructions that might be needed. Otherwise, he was supposed to stay at the TSBD and finish his work shift or depart if the workers were dismissed early due to the shooting. It is absurd to believe that Oswald descended the stairs, and after entering the vestibule, decided to turn Left and enter the Breakroom. After entering the vestibule, turning Right would have taken Oswald to a hallway which then would have led him Directly to a stairway going Down and Out of the TSBD. Filling book orders inside the TSBD meant Oswald knew the lay-out of the TSBD like the back of his hand. There is No Way a shooter makes the choice to confine himself in a Breakroom or any 4 sided room for that matter. He stays on the Move seeking Escape. (The carcano was stolen from the Paine garage and planted at the TSBD)
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Dan,
Opinions in this case are extremely polarized and have been for a long time. Meeting somebody half way implies that both parties shift towards the middle and a consensus. This is something I do not believe any LN will ever be prepared to do. In the time I have been active on this board, I have not seen one LN ever conceding anything, regardless of how silly their own position was.
As for Oswald, IMO it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for him to have been an 100% innocent bystander who was framed. In other words, he must have been involved in something.... but what? That's the big question, as far as I am concerned, and I seriously doubt I will ever get an answer.
It's my opinion that there are too many variables and unknowns to ever really determine with any kind of certainty what really happened and what Oswald's role in it was. The man was and still is a complete mystery!
One thing is certain though, at least in my mind, and that is that there are too many evidentairy problems to simply accept as true the official narrative concocted by the WC and in that sense I don't think I will ever be able to meet the LNs (more than) half way without them doing the same...... and that IMO will only happen after Hell has frozen over twice.
he (Lee Oswald) must have been involved in something.... but what? That's the big question, as far as I am concerned, and I seriously doubt I will ever get an answer.
Perhaps since I've had the benefit ( or experience ) of being on the receiving end of an event that gave the illusion that I was guilty of some act when in reality I had no idea what was happening... I can visualize how Lee could have been duped by those he trusted.
It should be apparent to you that Lee was a bit "eccentric".... He envisioned himself a being another "Herb Philbrick" an FBI agent who was a spy and led three lives...
what really happened and what Oswald's role in it was.
Since he thought ( dreamed ) that he was working for the FBI ( or CIA ) the conspirators could manipulate him and trick him into playing a role that he thought was exciting and could elevate him to the hero like Herb Philbrick...Remember how he signed George De Morhenschildt's photo? "Hunter of Fascists " ....... That was a role he was playing in April of 1963.....
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Oswald set-up the Sniper's Nest/Nook. That was his Only designated function that day. He worked there, handled/moved boxes there, and could perform this task without drawing attention to his actions. He was instructed to wait inside the TSBD Breakroom for any further instructions that might be needed. Otherwise, he was supposed to stay at the TSBD and finish his work shift or depart if the workers were dismissed early due to the shooting.
You're doing the same thing the WC did. Anyone can make up a narrative. Proving that it happened that way is another matter...
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Remember how he signed George De Morhenschildt's photo? "Hunter of Fascists "
I don't remember that. Even the unscientific, subjective handwriting "analyzers" said that this part wasn't his handwriting.
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Oswald set-up the Sniper's Nest/Nook. That was his Only designated function that day. He worked there, handled/moved boxes there, and could perform this task without drawing attention to his actions. He was instructed to wait inside the TSBD Breakroom for any further instructions that might be needed. Otherwise, he was supposed to stay at the TSBD and finish his work shift or depart if the workers were dismissed early due to the shooting. It is absurd to believe that Oswald descended the stairs, and after entering the vestibule, decided to turn Left and enter the Breakroom. After entering the vestibule, turning Right would have taken Oswald to a hallway which then would have led him Directly to a stairway going Down and Out of the TSBD. Filling book orders inside the TSBD meant Oswald knew the lay-out of the TSBD like the back of his hand. There is No Way a shooter makes the choice to confine himself in a Breakroom or any 4 sided room for that matter. He stays on the Move seeking Escape. (The carcano was stolen from the Paine garage and planted at the TSBD)
Hey, Martin. Thanks for responding. I know you have had many a heated argument with LN's since you were here but there are some who do admit there are some troublesome areas. I don't want to mention their names but one is bothered as to how Oswald smuggled in the wrapping paper from the TSBD
when Frazier brought him home that Thursday. In other words why not the question ... do you remember
if he was wearing a jacket that day and if so ... was it zipped up to the top. Another when he was unaccounted for a short period of time between Tippit and the Texas Theater. As for meeting the LN's halfway. I don't know a better way to put it. He was either a Patsy - involved with another or a team
or - he acted alone. If I can't accept the Patsy conclusion then what's left but to meet the LN's halfway?
This debate of the complete or partial guilt of Oswald as opposed to his complete innocence reminds me of the Creationists and Evolution argument. The last groups state they have the theory which is backed up by science. Not perfect but backed up by science. The former states that's it's said in a Holy Book with no way to measure the science of it. Not yet anyway. So who has to move to who? Esp if I do believe there was some degree of guilt as far as Oswald is concerned.
Btw ... I agree with you, Hell may have to freeze over twice before we might even get an answer
In the meantime - and this is only my opinion - all we can do is state a plausible theory which meets
both groups in the middle. If evidence was doctored or added there had to be a good reason for doing it.
One nut job Socialist would be no different than two. If there were others there had to be a good reason why it would have appeared that one did it.
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he (Lee Oswald) must have been involved in something.... but what? That's the big question, as far as I am concerned, and I seriously doubt I will ever get an answer.
Perhaps since I've had the benefit ( or experience ) of being on the receiving end of an event that gave the illusion that I was guilty of some act when in reality I had no idea what was happening... I can visualize how Lee could have been duped by those he trusted.
It should be apparent to you that Lee was a bit "eccentric".... He envisioned himself a being another "Herb Philbrick" an FBI agent who was a spy and led three lives...
what really happened and what Oswald's role in it was.
Since he thought ( dreamed ) that he was working for the FBI ( or CIA ) the conspirators could manipulate him and trick him into playing a role that he thought was exciting and could elevate him to the hero like Herb Philbrick...Remember how he signed George De Morhenschildt's photo? "Hunter of Fascists " ....... That was a role he was playing in April of 1963.....
Hey, Walt. If the impressionable Oswald came to realize that there was a possibility
he was being set up ... why not call home and ask his wife in Russian to go to the garage
and check if the rifle was still there? If it wasn't, then he could have had the, Oh, F ...
moment and know it for sure. For him to guess and then leave is hard for me to believe.
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Hey, Walt. If the impressionable Oswald came to realize that there was a possibility
he was being set up ... why not call home and ask his wife in Russian to go to the garage
and check if the rifle was still there? If it wasn't, then he could have had the, Oh, F ...
moment and know it for sure. For him to guess and then leave is hard for me to believe.
Dan,
Why first assume that there was in fact (still or ever) a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage?
Other than that, I agree that Oswald leaving the TSBD so quickly is troublesome and does not bode well for him being an innocent bystander.
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Hey, Walt. If the impressionable Oswald came to realize that there was a possibility
he was being set up ... why not call home and ask his wife in Russian to go to the garage
and check if the rifle was still there? If it wasn't, then he could have had the, Oh, F ...
moment and know it for sure. For him to guess and then leave is hard for me to believe.
Why would he think he was being set up?....He thought the whole thing was a hoax similar to the Walker hoax....and it would appear that he had taken a potshot at JFK which he thought would get him welcomed to Cuba....
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Why would he think he was being set up?....He thought the whole thing was a hoax similar to the Walker hoax....and it would appear that he had taken a potshot at JFK which he thought would get him welcomed to Cuba....
And it would never have dawned on the impressionable Oswald that his handlers would really
kill Kennedy and he would be blamed for it?
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And it would never have dawned on the impressionable Oswald that his handlers would really
kill Kennedy and he would be blamed for it?
He had been reassured that the FBI were well aware of the plots afoot to assassinate JFK...and they had everything under control.... He was being reassured by the very people who were stting him up....
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He had been reassured that the FBI were well aware of the plots afoot to assassinate JFK...and they had everything under control.... He was being reassured by the very people who were stting him up....
And when he came face to face with Hosty he complained about the former
accosting his wife and says nothing on how his department set him up for killing Kennedy?
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Dan,
Why first assume that there was in fact (still or ever) a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage?
Other than that, I agree that Oswald leaving the TSBD so quickly is troublesome and does not bode well for him being an innocent bystander.
Hey, Martin. I was replying to Walt's comment but I forgot he believes Oswald did
take the rifle for a hoax shot towards Kennedy.
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Dan I will lay out what I think as best I can.
Oswald?s involvement is indicated by his leaving the building and showing no interest in the motorcade. His acquisition of a revolver etc...
Do I believe the BY photos are faked.....no.
Do I believe the rifle was in his possession..yes
Was he involved in the Walker "shooting".....yes
Was he aware of some sort of "attempt" on 11/22/63......likely
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Dan I will lay out what I think as best I can.
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Was he involved in the Walker "shooting".....yes
Was he aware of some sort of "attempt" on 11/22/63......likely
Colin, you strongly suspect the reported incident at Edwin Walker's residence was staged (as described by Walker to police)
or some other sort of deception and Oswald was acting on instructions or an understanding with one or more others, (related to
a planned presidential assassination or assassination themed incident) insofar as he his presence at the TSBD at 12:30 pm on 22 November?
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Colin, you strongly suspect the reported incident at Edwin Walker's residence was staged (as described by Walker to police)
or some other sort of deception and Oswald was acting on instructions or an understanding with one or more others, (related to
a planned presidential assassination or assassination themed incident) insofar as he his presence at the TSBD at 12:30 pm on 22 November?
I don?t believe the Walker incident and JFK assassination were linked at the time of the Walker incident, if that makes sense.
However I think the Walker incident was useful/used in November. Ie the weapon's link to Oswald etc.
Not sure if I am explaining well enough.
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I don?t believe the Walker incident and JFK assassination were linked at the time of the Walker incident, if that makes sense.
However I think the Walker incident was useful/used in November. Ie the weapon's link to Oswald etc.
Not sure if I am explaining well enough.
Ironically, it would probably be less difficult to convey your opinion on these particular controversies if you were replying to readers
less informed about the WC findings than those you anticipate might reply to you on this forum.
I assume you are saying the Walker shooting was likely a one off assault on Walker by Oswald but was later employed as a device to
paint Oswald as not only a returned defector to the Soviet Union, but one with exhibited murderous tendencies with the very rifle
produced by DPD in the BYP and "found" by DPD, a constable, a Fish N Game, and Deputy sheriffs in the vicinity of the alleged sniper's nest.
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Ironically, it would probably be less difficult to convey your opinion on these particular controversies if you were replying to readers
less informed about the WC findings than those you anticipate might reply to you on this forum.
I assume you are saying the Walker shooting was likely a one off assault on Walker by Oswald but was later employed as a device to
paint Oswald as not only a returned defector to the Soviet Union, but one with exhibited murderous tendencies with the very rifle
produced by DPD in the BYP and "found" by DPD, a constable, a Fish N Game, and Deputy sheriffs in the vicinity of the alleged sniper's nest.
Geez, I?m sorry Tom, really busy day at work. Also my vagueness is part,y due to the partially complete canvass that exists in my mind largely based upon many unproven/non-verifiable assumptions.
I will have a go again......
I think Oswald was essentially used as "flypaper" by one or more intelligence agencies. This could well be unknowingly or a witting participant. In any event he was low-level and relatively unskilled. I have no doubt he was part of a false defector scheme to the USSR. Once his usefulness was exhausted or he grew tired he was allowed to return home. I think his move from Ft Worth to Dallas was encouraged and his interest in Cuba "developed". I find his employment at CJS to be interesting at the time they were doing work for the AMS and he had a Russian interested co-employee (Ofstein). Certainly there was lying going on about his performance as he worked overtime more often than not according to the records. Yet his workmate and boss claimed he hardly ever worked any.
The Walker incident led to his move to New Orleans and increased his Cuban activities. This at a time when there was much intelligence agency interest in the FPCC. His move back to Dallas happened To coincide with William Lowery being unable to continue to be an asset to inform on the GI forum. Joe Molina was obviously a person of interest. So to me Oswald appears to be a useful asset to move around where required. Just so happened he finished up at the TSBD in October.
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Geez, I?m sorry Tom, really busy day at work. Also my vagueness is part,y due to the partially complete canvass that exists in my mind largely based upon many unproven/non-verifiable assumptions.
I will have a go again......
I think Oswald was essentially used as "flypaper" by one or more intelligence agencies. This could well be unknowingly or a witting participant. In any event he was low-level and relatively unskilled. I have no doubt he was part of a false defector scheme to the USSR. Once his usefulness was exhausted or he grew tired he was allowed to return home. I think his move from Ft Worth to Dallas was encouraged and his interest in Cuba "developed". I find his employment at CJS to be interesting at the time they were doing work for the AMS and he had a Russian interested co-employee (Ofstein). Certainly there was lying going on about his performance as he worked overtime more often than not according to the records. Yet his workmate and boss claimed he hardly ever worked any.
The Walker incident led to his move to New Orleans and increased his Cuban activities. This at a time when there was much intelligence agency interest in the FPCC. His move back to Dallas happened To coincide with William Lowery being unable to continue to be an asset to inform on the GI forum. Joe Molina was obviously a person of interest. So to me Oswald appears to be a useful asset to move around where required. Just so happened he finished up at the TSBD in October.
Now you have to come up with a story as to why a patsy would be needed in the first place, and what would be the point of then shooting from the front while placing Oswald to shoot from behind.
It seems to me critics have to keep trowling on yet more and more stories to explain such contradictions.
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Dan,
Why first assume that there was in fact (still or ever) a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage?
Other than that, I agree that Oswald leaving the TSBD so quickly is troublesome and does not bode well for him being an innocent bystander.
Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
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Now you have to come up with a story as to why a patsy would be needed in the first place, and what would be the point of then shooting from the front while placing Oswald to shoot from behind.
It seems to me critics have to keep trowling on yet more and more stories to explain such contradictions.
Why do you think Oswald was needed as a patsy? All that was needed was a rifle tied to Castro. Why do you think you understand my thinking on what happened? Did I say there was a shot from the front? Did I say multiple shooters? Why do you guys assume you know what critics of the official story think?
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Dan,
Other than that, I agree that Oswald leaving the TSBD so quickly is troublesome and does not bode well for him being an innocent bystander.
Martin,
I'm not so sure he did.
It's a question of when the building was sealed off. The earliest I can place that is when Lumpkin arrived at 12:49.
When he did arrive, he ordered Lt. Kaminsky to stay at the front door. Inspector Sawyer ordered the building sealed off, but that was only after he had been inside, been up to the 4th floor or so, and returned back outside to the sidewalk.
In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:
"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.?
In his Report on the Interrogations of Oswald, Harry Homes wrote of his interrogation on November 24th, ?...when he (Oswald) went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that ?he is one of our employees? whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building..?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page
Steve Thomas
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I don't remember that. Even the unscientific, subjective handwriting "analyzers" said that this part wasn't his handwriting.
You're right ...my mistake....We don't know who actually penned that inscription.....But the actual stenographer is unimportant or at least beside the point ..... Whoever wrote it knew that Lee was playing the role of a Hunter of Fascists.
And General Walker was that Fascist......
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Martin,
I'm not so sure he did.
It's a question of when the building was sealed off. The earliest I can place that is when Lumpkin arrived at 12:49.
When he did arrive, he ordered Lt. Kaminsky to stay at the front door. Inspector Sawyer ordered the building sealed off, but that was only after he had been inside, been up to the 4th floor or so, and returned back outside to the sidewalk.
In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:
"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.?
In his Report on the Interrogations of Oswald, Harry Homes wrote of his interrogation on November 24th, ?...when he (Oswald) went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that ?he is one of our employees? whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building..?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page
Steve Thomas
Hey, Steve. Curious. If Oswald was detained with other employees until they were cleared
before they left from the front door, one by one, shouldn't some of the exits have been caught
on film let alone Oswald's? Shouldn't there have been some testimony esp from Truly that Oswald
encountered two cops while in the building? Some list that their addresses and phone numbers
were written down by Truly esp Oswald's? And, it goes on ... Some kind of comment from Oswald,
himself, when he was filmed in the DPD which would have presented his departure in a better light?
What? We were told by our supervisor and a cop after we gave our contact information to vacate
the building so I went to see a movie. What is this?
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Martin,
I'm not so sure he did.
It's a question of when the building was sealed off. The earliest I can place that is when Lumpkin arrived at 12:49.
When he did arrive, he ordered Lt. Kaminsky to stay at the front door. Inspector Sawyer ordered the building sealed off, but that was only after he had been inside, been up to the 4th floor or so, and returned back outside to the sidewalk.
In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:
"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.?
In his Report on the Interrogations of Oswald, Harry Homes wrote of his interrogation on November 24th, ?...when he (Oswald) went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that ?he is one of our employees? whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building..?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page
Steve Thomas
In his Report on the Interrogations of Oswald, Harry Homes wrote of his interrogation on November 24th, ?...when he (Oswald) went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that ?he is one of our employees? whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building..?
Isn't this about the Baker/Truly meeting with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
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Why do you think Oswald was needed as a patsy? All that was needed was a rifle tied to Castro. Why do you think you understand my thinking on what happened? Did I say there was a shot from the front? Did I say multiple shooters? Why do you guys assume you know what critics of the official story think?
All that was needed was a rifle tied to Castro.
Is this what you intended to write, Colin?
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In his Report on the Interrogations of Oswald, Harry Homes wrote of his interrogation on November 24th, ?...when he (Oswald) went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that ?he is one of our employees? whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building..?
Isn't this about the Baker/Truly meeting with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
Martin,
Is it?
Did Baker, in his after-action report, or in his WC testimony, ask Oswald to "step aside momentarily"?
Steve Thomas
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Shouldn't there have been some testimony esp from Truly that Oswald
encountered two cops while in the building?
Dan,
Ah. Therein lies the rub.
Steve Thomas
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Martin,
Is it?
Did Baker, in his after-action report, or in his WC testimony, ask Oswald to "step aside momentarily"?
Steve Thomas
Steve,
I really don't know, but the mere fact that Baker did not mention such a minor detail in his report or testimony does not mean I didn't happen. Not everything that happens gets recorded is minute detail. In fact, the record in this case is often so blurred that it is hard to decide what is true and what isn't.
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Why do you think Oswald was needed as a patsy? All that was needed was a rifle tied to Castro. Why do you think you understand my thinking on what happened? Did I say there was a shot from the front? Did I say multiple shooters? Why do you guys assume you know what critics of the official story think?
I admit I had a few misgivings after writing that because I wasn't sure what I said was relevant to you or your point in particular.
Aside from that, can you stop mangling what I said... I did not say any patsy was needed. That's the overall CT bailiwick.
Reading CTers here shows me that any theory will do and are therefore interchangeable, in whole or in part. I see your particular truth is the Castro thing.
Well. If any of you characters can show proof that anyone other than the shooter knew that an attempt was to be made on Kennedy that day, by all means post it.
Aside from that, I see where you're coming from Colin... and if I respect any CTer here it's you.
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Dan,
Ah. Therein lies the rub.
Steve Thomas
Well, Steve ... Speaking of tragedies. One would think when he was being filmed at the DPD
the knucklehead would have stated that he and the rest of the employees - after giving
their contact info to Truly with a cop present - were all told to vacate the building.
I mean, he did have enough in him to say he was a Patsy ... why not that? All of us were told to leave
so I thought I catch a movie. What is this?
Unless, of course, it was a Greek tragedy where some of the blame for the tragedy
did rest on the main character.
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Well, Steve ... Speaking of tragedies. One would think when he was being filmed at the DPD
the knucklehead would have stated that he and the rest of the employees - after giving
their contact info to Truly with a cop present - were all told to vacate the building.
I mean, he did have enough in him to say he was a Patsy ... why not that? All of us were told to leave
so I thought I catch a movie.
Unless, of course, it was a Greek tragedy where some of the blame for the tragedy
did rest on the main character.
Tell us that Oswald, by exclaiming 'I'm just a PATSY!' wasn't simply a summing up of what he said about about being brought in because he had lived in the Soviet Union.
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Tell us that Oswald, by exclaiming 'I'm just a PATSY!' wasn't simply a summing up of what he said about about being brought in because he had lived in the Soviet Union.
Hey, Bill. I know you tend to paint all CT's with the same brush but I think
Oswald was as guilty as sin. He was no damn patsy in my book. Okay?
To me, he was part of a team and it had to appear he acted alone.
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You can't negotiate the truth in a factual matter to meet someone halfway. The totality of facts and evidence in this case demonstrate beyond any doubt that Oswald was the assassin. There is no credible evidence of anyone else being involved. We can never know every detail with absolute 100% certainty. That impossible standard is advocated by many CTers and confused for doubt. The basic distinction in this case is the evidence. If you accept it as genuine, then there is no doubt of Oswald's guilt. If you believe it is mostly the product of fakery and lies, then you entertain a conspiracy. There is no getting around or having a constructive conversation once you reach that impasse.
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Hey, Bill. I know you tend to paint all CT's with the same brush but I think
Oswald was as guilty as sin. He was no damn patsy in my book. Okay?
To me, he was part of a team and it had to appear he acted alone.
I'm wondering why would all this skullduggery would be necessary.
Nah, a quick decision by Oswald at the last minute. An unannounced arrival needed at the Paine's; walking briskly ahead of Buell required to mask the true size of the rifle bag; no big deal for a trained Marine to hit Kennedy, who was essentially a sitting duck. A little luck needed probably, but no other help necessarily needed. You can deny the possibilty as you wish. But I would even go one step beyond that to conclude that Oswald probably did it.
;)
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You can't negotiate the truth in a factual matter to meet someone halfway. The totality of facts and evidence in this case demonstrate beyond any doubt that Oswald was the assassin. There is no credible evidence of anyone else being involved. We can never know every detail with absolute 100% certainty. That impossible standard is advocated by many CTers and confused for doubt. The basic distinction in this case is the evidence. If you accept it as genuine, then there is no doubt of Oswald's guilt. If you believe it is mostly the product of fakery and lies, then you entertain a conspiracy. There is no getting around or having a constructive conversation once you reach that impasse.
You can't negotiate the truth in a factual matter to meet someone halfway.
Agreed... but what is the truth?
The totality of facts and evidence in this case demonstrate beyond any doubt that Oswald was the assassin.
That's just your opinion and not necessarily the truth.
There is no credible evidence of anyone else being involved.
But that doesn't prove nobody else was involved. It could just as well be proof of evidence manipulation
We can never know every detail with absolute 100% certainty.
Nobody is asking for that.
That impossible standard is advocated by many CTers and confused for doubt.
Wrong. That's just what you tell yourself everytime you are unable to provide proof for one of your claims.
The basic distinction in this case is the evidence. If you accept it as genuine, then there is no doubt of Oswald's guilt. If you believe it is mostly the product of fakery and lies, then you entertain a conspiracy. There is no getting around or having a constructive conversation once you reach that impasse.
So, your purpose for being here is not to have a constructive conversation?
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And when he came face to face with Hosty he complained about the former
accosting his wife and says nothing on how his department set him up for killing Kennedy?
We don't know what tripped Lee's trigger..... It does appear that Lee was very angry at Hosty.... Was it because he had warned the FBI that there was a plot afoot to assassinate JFK and had been reassured that everything was cool....
It's possible that Lee used the explanation that Hosty had been harassing Marina as a cover for the fact that he was an FBI informant.
There's no doubt in my mind that Lee was an intelligence agent....and a chameleon....and He would not have revealed his undercover status in front of Fritz.....
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You can't negotiate the truth in a factual matter to meet someone halfway. The totality of facts and evidence in this case demonstrate beyond any doubt that Oswald was the assassin. There is no credible evidence of anyone else being involved. We can never know every detail with absolute 100% certainty. That impossible standard is advocated by many CTers and confused for doubt. The basic distinction in this case is the evidence. If you accept it as genuine, then there is no doubt of Oswald's guilt. If you believe it is mostly the product of fakery and lies, then you entertain a conspiracy. There is no getting around or having a constructive conversation once you reach that impasse.
The basic distinction in this case is the evidence. If you accept it as genuine, then there is no doubt of Oswald's guilt. If you believe it is mostly the product of fakery and lies, then you entertain a conspiracy. There is no getting around or having a constructive conversation once you reach that impasse.
Hey, Richard and Bill for that matter. If you look at the title of my thread it was directed to my fellow CT's
who are convinced that there was some degree of fakery and lies as it concerns the evidence and thus a conspiracy and cover up but I never expected to try to have a constructive conversation with an LN on the subject who is convinced there was no such thing. To me the notion of Oswald being a patsy is too fantastic to even consider so where do I go? I try to find a middle ground with the two most prevailing theories around here. He was set up as a patsy or he acted alone. If I can't present something plausible
then LN land ... here I come.
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The basic distinction in this case is the evidence. If you accept it as genuine, then there is no doubt of Oswald's guilt. If you believe it is mostly the product of fakery and lies, then you entertain a conspiracy. There is no getting around or having a constructive conversation once you reach that impasse.
Hey, Richard and Bill for that matter. If you look at the title of my thread it was directed to my fellow CT's
who are convinced that there was some degree of fakery and lies as it concerns the evidence and thus a conspiracy and cover up but I never expected to try to have a constructive conversation with an LN on the subject who is convinced there was no such thing. To me the notion of Oswald being a patsy is too fantastic to even consider so where do I go? I try to find a middle ground with the two most prevailing theories around here. He was set up as a patsy or he acted alone. If I can't present something plausible
then LN land ... here I come.
I'd suggest that you lack what it takes to face the truth..... You recognize that we have not been told the truth and the government covered up the truth....but you can't come to grips with that .
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I'd suggest that you lack what it takes to face the truth..... You recognize that we have not been told the truth and the government covered up the truth....but you can't come to grips with that .
My truth has Oswald being involved and ALL assassins were captured that day
and the government did everything they could to make it appear like he acted alone.
Your's ...?
Oswald was impressionable, he was playing the role of a TV character,
he was stupid enough to take a hoax shot at Kennedy so he could enter Cuba as a hero,
never thinking his handlers would kill Kennedy and blame him? Is that correct?
And you say to me I have to get a grip?
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My truth has Oswald being involved and ALL assassins were captured that day
and the government did everything they could to make it appear like he acted alone.
Your's ...?
the government did everything they could to make it appear like he acted alone.
You're right..... Is that the way is should be?, according to our constitution and Bill of Rights.
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the government did everything they could to make it appear like he acted alone.
You're right..... Is that the way is should be?, according to our constitution and Bill of Rights.
Hell, no. Unless they had a damn good reason. Imagine if I was right about the other assassins being captured and they were domestic agents or foreign ones either from a pro or anti Castro group.
What do you think the government should have done in such a situation?
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What is your best Oswald was involved, theory?
Btw ... that's ... INVOLVED.
Not that he was duped and Not that he was really there to protect the President.
INVOLVED.
Let the sound of crickets begin.
My best Oswald was involved theory (hypothesis) is..
LHO was a wannabe gov agent that was groomed to be a patsy in the "Fake Defector Program" created by James "The Ghost" Angleton. After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, JFK fired American Nazi Allen Dulles who was the architect of the "Big Event". Angleton recruited Hoover (with the "photo") and it was game on. Hoover was the mob boss at the time and when Dulles got fired JFK sealed his fate.
Being a member of the fake defector program, Oswald knew he was being cut off from society and painted as a commie for his mission. How much he knew about his mission was irrelevant. For if he was part of a conspiracy then there is no way in hell the conspirators would have relied on him to be the shooter. He was the patsy, not the shooter. Which means the MC was planted and not the murder weapon. LHO may have been heavily involved, but he was NOT a lone nut assassin. Like he said, he was a patsy because every good conspiracy needs one and he was it.
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My best Oswald was involved theory (hypothesis) is..
LHO was a wannabe gov agent that was groomed to be a patsy in the "Fake Defector Program" created by James "The Ghost" Angleton. After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, JFK fired American Nazi Allen Dulles who was the architect of the "Big Event". Angleton recruited Hoover (with the "photo") and it was game on. Hoover was the mob boss at the time and when Dulles got fired JFK sealed his fate.
Being a member of the fake defector program, Oswald knew he was being cut off from society and painted as a commie for his mission. How much he knew about his mission was irrelevant. For if he was part of a conspiracy then there is no way in hell the conspirators would have relied on him to be the shooter. He was the patsy, not the shooter. Which means the MC was planted and not the murder weapon. LHO may have been heavily involved, but he was NOT a lone nut assassin. Like he said, he was a patsy because every good conspiracy needs one and he was it.
Hey, Jack. Well, you're the third person to offer an Oswald was involved theory.
So, you're saying he left the building because he caught on he was a patsy or was that
part of the plan?
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Why do you think Oswald was needed as a patsy? All that was needed was a rifle tied to Castro. Why do you think you understand my thinking on what happened? Did I say there was a shot from the front? Did I say multiple shooters? Why do you guys assume you know what critics of the official story think?
It's way easier for them to make up positions to argue with.
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You can't negotiate the truth in a factual matter to meet someone halfway. The totality of facts and evidence in this case demonstrate beyond any doubt that Oswald was the assassin.
LOL. In Richard's fantasy world.
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Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
"Ilya Mamantov, affidavit, 11/22/63".
There, I fixed it for you. Other interesting facts from that affidavit:
- Lee worked at a place on Hines
- Lee used to have a rifle in Russia
- The rifle he had was a dark gun
- She did not remember a sight on it
- She wasn't sure if it was the same rifle that the police showed her
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"Ilya Mamantov, affidavit, 11/22/63".
There, I fixed it for you. Other interesting facts from that affidavit:
- Lee worked at a place on Hines
- Lee used to have a rifle in Russia
- The rifle he had was a dark gun
- She did not remember a sight on it
- She wasn't sure if it was the same rifle that the police showed her
It did not need fixing.
How does anything in your above post change what was in my post?
Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
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It's way easier for them to make up positions to argue with.
You've conveniently ignored my reply to Colin. Note that I said that if I respected any CTer, it would be him. Feeling left out, John?
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If you look at the title of my thread it was directed to my fellow CT's
who are convinced that there was some degree of fakery and lies as it concerns the evidence and thus a conspiracy and cover up but I never expected to try to have a constructive conversation with an LN on the subject who is convinced there was no such thing. To me the notion of Oswald being a patsy is too fantastic to even consider so where do I go? I try to find a middle ground with the two most prevailing theories around here. He was set up as a patsy or he acted alone. If I can't present something plausible
then LN land ... here I come.
Keep one thing in mind, Dan...
If one believes in a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy, he/she is doing so without showing anything which points to someone other than Lee Oswald.
I haven't seen anyone post any piece of evidence which points somewhere other than Lee Oswald in the deaths of the President and J.D. Tippit.
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Keep one thing in mind, Dan...
If one believes in a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy, he/she is doing so without showing anything which points to someone other than Lee Oswald.
I haven't seen anyone post any piece of evidence which points somewhere other than Lee Oswald in the deaths of the President and J.D. Tippit.
Cue CT chorus: 'Just because we can't produce a plausible alternate shooter doesn't mean there wasn't one'
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Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
The unwillingness of nuts like Martin and John I. to accept that Marina saw a rifle in the blanket despite her clear testimony on that point is a classic example of their dishonest and contrarian approach to this case. Marina is asked repeatedly about a "rifle" in her testimony. In each instance she answers the question. Never once does she interject any doubt that she is talking about a rifle rather than some generic object made of wood. And of course a rifle stock is made of wood. But that doesn't give a moments pause to loons like M&J. They are off and running while ignoring the totality of her testimony in which she makes reference to a "rifle" and responds to questions about a "rifle." And, of course, Marina has never changed her story in the last fifty plus years that Oswald stored the rifle in Paine's garage. These jokers have no interest in the truth. This is just a endless game to take issue with everything that points to Oswald's guilt. And these are the same dishonest nuts that claim they are not alleging a vast conspiracy. But they reject evidence of Oswald's ownership of the rifle and all the documents, prints, pictures and testimony that link him to that rifle. Imagine how many people would have to be involved in a conspiracy just to fabricate that evidence. It boggles the mind.
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The unwillingness of nuts like Martin and John I. to accept that Marina saw a rifle in the blanket despite her clear testimony on that point is a classic example of their dishonest and contrarian approach to this case. Marina is asked repeatedly about a "rifle" in her testimony. In each instance she answers the question. Never once does she interject any doubt that she is talking about a rifle rather than some generic object made of wood. And of course a rifle stock is made of wood. But that doesn't give a moments pause to loons like M&J. They are off and running while ignoring the totality of her testimony in which she makes reference to a "rifle" and responds to questions about a "rifle." And, of course, Marina has never changed her story in the last fifty plus years that Oswald stored the rifle in Paine's garage. These jokers have no interest in the truth. This is just a endless game to take issue with everything that points to Oswald's guilt. And these are the same dishonest nuts that claim they are not alleging a vast conspiracy. But they reject evidence of Oswald's ownership of the rifle and all the documents, prints, pictures and testimony that link him to that rifle. Imagine how many people would have to be involved in a conspiracy just to fabricate that evidence. It boggles the mind.
Poor Richard,
Still whining about those horrible people who disagree with you... Details matter, Richie, and you are not seeing them.
I bet that you have ignored completely that Marina said she only looked in the blanket once and that was about a week after Ruth Paine had picked her up in New Orl?ans, which makes it competely irrelevant what she actually saw, whether it was a rifle or not.
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Poor Richard,
Still whining about those horrible people who disagree with you... Details matter, Richie, and you are not seeing them.
I bet that you have ignored completely that Marina said she only looked in the blanket once and that was about a week after Ruth Paine had picked her up in New Orl?ans, which makes it competely irrelevant what she actually saw, whether it was a rifle or not.
So it's not relevant that Marina confirms Oswald owned a rifle (something he denied to the police), stored that rifle in the Paine's garage (the place Oswald makes an unexpected visit on the night before the assassination), that rifle is gone on 11.22.63 when the police check the blanket and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the one found on the 6th floor? Oh yeah, and Oswald carried a long package to work with him that morning. But you believe it is "irrelevant" whether the rifle was seen by Marina? LOL That just highlights what a joker you are. Classic nonsense. You think it is only relevant if Marina could - like a trained firearms expert - identify the exact make of the rifle. Not only that but she must be able to identify it as THE rifle found on the 6th floor. Not only that. But she apparently must have seen the rifle in closer proximity to the crime. Like when? When Oswald placed it into his paper bag? But then how do we confirm the same rifle was in the bag when he reaches the TSBD? Sugar plum fairies could have switched it along the way. Just endless nonsense you are peddling in a lazy attempt to conflate an impossible standard of proof with doubt.
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"But I don't remember the sight on it."
BFD.
Neither did Brennan or anyone else who saw at least part of a rifle in the SN window.
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BFD.
Neither did Brennan or anyone else who saw at least part of a rifle in the SN window.
Because of the acute angle from the ground up to the sixth floor only a small portion of a rifle would be visible UNLESS the rifle actually protruded out of a window as Howard Brennan described in his affidavit...." I could see all of the barrel of the gun" and when he testified before LBJ's Cover Up Committee...." I could see all of the rife clear back to his hands "..." I could see about 85 % of the rifle"
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It did not need fixing.
How does anything in your above post change what was in my post?
Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
It doesn't change what was in your post. The contents of your post are just as irrelevant as they ever are.
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You've conveniently ignored my reply to Colin. Note that I said that if I respected any CTer, it would be him. Feeling left out, John?
Why should I respond to your reply to someone else? Besides, of what value is your respect?
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The unwillingness of nuts like Martin and John I. to accept that Marina saw a rifle in the blanket despite her clear testimony on that point is a classic example of their dishonest and contrarian approach to this case.
You cherry-pick whatever it is you want to believe without considering all the evidence. Ruth Paine was there translating for Marina when the police were there and she said that Marina saw a part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle. Just because Marina assumed something, that doesn't make it actually true. There are loads of examples of Marina claiming things that aren't true. Just because Marina thought there was a rifle in that blanket in late September / early October, that doesn't mean that there actually was a rifle in that blanket, and it certainly doesn't mean that there was a Mannlicher Carcano with serial number C2766 in that blanket.
[Richard's usual insults and strawman arguments deleted as irrelevant]
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So it's not relevant that Marina confirms Oswald owned a rifle (something he denied to the police), stored that rifle in the Paine's garage (the place Oswald makes an unexpected visit on the night before the assassination), that rifle is gone on 11.22.63 when the police check the blanket and can't be accounted for in any other way except as the one found on the 6th floor?
Not this twisted logic again. Yeah, and no other lunch bag was ever found. ::)
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BFD.
Neither did Brennan or anyone else who saw at least part of a rifle in the SN window.
And yet you still think it was the same rifle.
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Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
The unwillingness of nuts like Martin and John I. to accept that Marina saw a rifle in the blanket despite her clear testimony on that point is a classic example of their dishonest and contrarian approach to this case.
Richard, I agree with you 100%.
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You cherry-pick whatever it is you want to believe without considering all the evidence. Ruth Paine was there translating for Marina when the police were there and she said that Marina saw a part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle. Just because Marina assumed something, that doesn't make it actually true. There are loads of examples of Marina claiming things that aren't true. Just because Marina thought there was a rifle in that blanket in late September / early October, that doesn't mean that there actually was a rifle in that blanket, and it certainly doesn't mean that there was a Mannlicher Carcano with serial number C2766 in that blanket.
[Richard's usual insults and strawman arguments deleted as irrelevant]
No matter what, you can't make this go away...
Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
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No matter what, you can't make this go away...
No matter what, you can't make it relevant.
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No matter what, you can't make it relevant.
It's relevant to some; not relevant to others.
Thank God we don't all have to play by your rules, though you seem to believe we do.
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It's relevant to some; not relevant to others.
I've explained why it's not relevant. All you've done is parrot the same statement over and over again as if it somehow becomes a fact through sheer repetition.
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Hey, Jack. Well, you're the third person to offer an Oswald was involved theory.
So, you're saying he left the building because he caught on he was a patsy or was that
part of the plan?
Oswald may or may not have realized he was the patsy, but there is no way in hell that he would have fled the scene, picked up his hand gun and gone to the Theater without instruction to do so. And how the Keystone DPD converged on him within a half hour of allegedly killing Tippit reeks of setup. The BYPs, Oswald's job at the TSBD, and his commie links were all part of his sheep-dipping as the patsy.
Like Oswald, Thomas Vallee was the designated patsy for the failed coup attempt in Chicago, November 1, 1963. However, Oswald got the job at the TSBD Oct 15th, so he was obviously plan B.
Fun fact: The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, 21 days prior to the Big Event.
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Oswald may or may not have realized he was the patsy, but there is no way in hell that he would have fled the scene, picked up his hand gun and gone to the Theater without instruction to do so. And how the Keystone DPD converged on him within a half hour of allegedly killing Tippit reeks of setup. And how did the DPD know the suspect was "a slender white male, in his early thirties, 5 feet 10 inches tall, and weighing about 165 pounds", unless he was the patsy? The BYPs, Oswald's job at the TSBD, and his commie links were all part of his sheep-dipping as the patsy.
Like Oswald, Thomas Vallee was the designated patsy for the failed coup attempt in Chicago, November 1, 1963. The conspirators likely couldn't recruit him for Dallas because his role as the patsy became apparent. Fool me once.
Fun fact: The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. This is 21 days prior to President Kennedy?s assassination and the world knowing the name Oswald.
Jack ... the problem I have with Oswald being a patsy is his own actions
which is why I believe he was involved. Bad luck is one thing but what happened to him
borders on the ridiculous. In other words there is a difference between being a patsy (totally innocent)
and being set up by those who were involved with you. Anyway, your fun fact should be a thread on to itself. If true or confirmed then how could anyone think ... he acted alone.
Fun fact: The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. This is 21 days prior to President Kennedy?s assassination and the world knowing the name Oswald.
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Fun fact: The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, 21 days prior to the Big Event.
Interesting. What's your source for this?
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Jack ... the problem I have with Oswald being a patsy is his own actions
which is why I believe he was involved. Bad luck is one thing but what happened to him
borders on the ridiculous. In other words there is a difference between being a patsy (totally innocent)
and being set up by those who were involved with you. Anyway, your fun fact should be a thread on to itself. If true or confirmed then how could anyone think ... he acted alone.
Fun fact: The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. This is 21 days prior to President Kennedy?s assassination and the world knowing the name Oswald.
Dan, absolutely Oswald was involved and might have even known about the Big Event, but the patsy isn't supposed to know that he's the fall guy. He can know EVERYTHING about the mission if you intend to wack him before he can tell anyone. This is why the DPD must have been up to their eyeballs in the conspiracy. So who controls the DPD and the SS? Hoover. Who controls Hoover? Dulles/Angleton. Oswald was an Angleton singleton AKA a patsy.
The Arthur Vallee license plate story was from an article back in 2008 I believe. I can't find the source for it any more so I am formally retracting it as a "fun fact" pending further investigation. My bad.
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I've explained why it's not relevant. All you've done is parrot the same statement over and over again as if it somehow becomes a fact through sheer repetition.
I've explained why it's not relevant.
No. You've explained why YOU THINK it is not relevant. Your (mistaken) opinion doesn't mean Marina's statement is irrelevant to others.
All you've done is parrot the same statement over and over again as if it somehow becomes a fact through sheer repetition.
No.
It is a FACT that Marina said that she saw a rifle in the blanket. You just don't understand. Slow down.
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Interesting. What's your source for this?
John, here is the relevant part of the article, which had no sourcing or footnotes so take it with a grain of salt, as I know you will and as you should.
============
May 14th, 2008
An Odyssey for Truth and Justice
Ed McCarthy of the White House News Photographer Association/H.V. Press, Former SS Agent Abraham Bolden, and Adult Education Director of Newburgh Enlarged School District Gary Van Voorhis during Bolden?s recent visit to the area as part of his book tour for ?The Echo from Dealy Plaza.?
By Ed McCarthy
An odyssey that began 5 decades ago by Abraham Bolden continues to this day. Bolden was the first African-American to serve The White House Presidential Protection detail. He was hand-picked personally by President John F. Kennedy to serve on the detail. President Kennedy affectionately referred to Bolden as "The Jackie Robinson of The Secret Service". Bolden had been a Pinkerton National Detective and an Illinois State Police Investigator prior to joining the U.S. Secret Service in October 1960.
In the course of his duties, he found laxity in the security for the president and also some agents deep concerns as to President Kennedy?s safety. He also told of the severe racism that he encountered from some of the agents. (In current history there is a class action lawsuit by Black agents of the Secret Service alleging basically the same conditions exist. The case even refers to Bolden?s plight).
Bolden then was assigned to the Chicago SS office where he worked counterfeit cases. On November 1, 1963, the Chicago SS office had received a teletype warning of a "Cuban" hit team in Chicago to Assassinate the President on his trip to Chicago, on November 2nd, to see the Army-Navy football game. Other agents, as well as Bolden, were made aware of the situation. A tip was received from a rooming house landlady who said her tenant, Thomas Arthur Vallee, was threatening the president and arranged to have off from work the next day. Chicago police and the Secret Service stopped a car driven by former U.S. Marine Vallee for a headlight that was out. The ticket is still sealed as classified at the national archives. Vallee?s car was found to contain explosives an M-1 Rifle and 3000 round of ammunition. Vallee was briefly detained and released. Simultaneously the SS agents had surveillance on two of the alleged Cuban Hitmen who managed to slip away. The President?s trip was cancelled.
The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. This is 21 days prior to President Kennedy?s assassination and the world knowing the name Oswald.
Bolden shortly thereafter was back in Washington on assignment and spoke to Secret Service Director James J. Rowley and as he had with U.B. Baughman the previous director had told him of his observations and knowledge of the Chicago incidents. Bolden tried to contact Warren Commission Counsel J. Lee Rankin. The very next day Bolden was arrested and falsely accused of soliciting a bribe from counterfeiter. This put Bolden through two trials and wound up in prison for more than 3 years before the witnesses broke down under oath in Federal Court and told that they were forced by the Government to lie against Bolden. The Prosecutor in the case was called before the judge and took the 5th amendment when asked if the frame up were true. The ordeal of Bolden is well documented in his new book "The Echo from Dealey Plaza".
In research at The National Archives in Washington of The Assassination files of 25 Million documents it turned up that in fact NY plate 311-ORF at the Vallee Traffic stop was registered in the Name of Lee Harvey Oswald. Documents declassified also state that same car in Dallas Texas at the time of the assassination. The detailed information with the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles is still withheld by order of The US Secret Service and The FBI. In the 1960?s license plate in the Hudson Valley were coded OR for Orange County, UL which meant Ulster County, SU was Sullivan County and DU was Dutchess County. Of the 25 Million documents in The JFK Assassination archives, there is a 6 page Secret Service report about a trip of President Kennedy to Stewart Air Force Base, (Newburgh, NY) and of him being shadowed by two member of George Lincoln Rockwell?s American Nazi Party.
Bolden has never received an apology for what he was put through. This man is truly an American Hero. In this writer?s opinion, he should be given an apology publicly and Awarded either "The Presidential Medal of Freedom" or "The Congressional Gold Medal" which is awarded for "An especially meritorious Contribution to the security or National Security." Abraham Bolden today is as patriotic as they come and deeply believes in the American way. He is a true patriot and for him the dream?s not over. Let?s not disappoint him. This is a chance for America to make it right.
Information for this article was from released documents from the National Archives.
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Oswald may or may not have realized he was the patsy, but there is no way in hell that he would have fled the scene, picked up his hand gun and gone to the Theater without instruction to do so. And how the Keystone DPD converged on him within a half hour of allegedly killing Tippit reeks of setup. The BYPs, Oswald's job at the TSBD, and his commie links were all part of his sheep-dipping as the patsy.
Like Oswald, Thomas Vallee was the designated patsy for the failed coup attempt in Chicago, November 1, 1963. However, Oswald got the job at the TSBD Oct 15th, so he was obviously plan B.
Fun fact: The license plate and registration on the 1962 Ford Falcon that Vallee was driving on November 1st in Chicago was New York Registration License plate # 311-ORF and was registered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, 21 days prior to the Big Event.
Oswald may or may not have realized he was the patsy, but there is no way in hell that he would have fled the scene, picked up his hand gun and gone to the Theater without instruction to do so.
Oswald left the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley. He encountered Tippit near the corner of Tenth and Patton. It is clear that Oswald was NOT heading to the theater and only went that way after fleeing the scene at Tenth and Patton. Consult a map, if need be.
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Dan, absolutely Oswald was involved and might have even known about the Big Event, but the patsy isn't supposed to know that he's the fall guy. He can know EVERYTHING about the mission if you intend to wack him before he can tell anyone. This is why the DPD must have been up to their eyeballs in the conspiracy. So who controls the DPD and the SS? Hoover. Who controls Hoover? Dulles/Angleton. Oswald was an Angleton singleton AKA a patsy.
The Arthur Vallee license plate story was from an article back in 2008 I believe. I can't find the source for it any more so I am formally retracting it as a "fun fact" pending further investigation. My bad.
Hey, Jack. Whenever several different agencies are stated for killing Kennedy and at the
same time setting up Oswald to take the fall reminds me of Woody Allen's comment in the movie,
Annie Hall? A lady wanted to have sex with the wood man and he pulled back saying
(and with some paraphrasing on my part.)
I can't. I can't. I just can't believe the custodian from the White House could have been involved
in killing Kennedy.
If that group was so powerful ... the DPD would have rushed in the TSBD immediately
and if he came out it should have been feet first. .
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Marina Oswald, affidavit, 11/22/63...
"I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
And your evidence that it was CE 139 is? Or that LHO owned and possessed CE 139 on 11/21-11/22/63?
Straw man.
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I haven't seen one piece of evidence that points to LHO in the deaths of JFK and JDT. That doesn't stop you from believing the official theory. Why the double standard?
You being in denial doesn't mean that others have double standards.
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How do you meet people halfway when they have no evidence? Their theory is unsupportable.
Arguing whether LHO was involved or not is a waste of time. The main point is the WC NEVER properly investigated a conspiracy scenario. This was the WC's job to do and they utterly failed.
If Oswald was involved with let's say another or with a team
and they did make it look like he acted alone the why is the most important
thing of all. Why? Would the truth be extremely volatile? Would it be extremely
embarrassing in the eyes of the world?
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LOL. So you can't show that she saw the alleged murder weapon. Got it.
Again, straw man.
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Nonsense. You believe a theory with NO supporting evidence behind it, but admonish others for doing the same thing. That is a double standard.
Again, you're in serious denial.
I don't want to hijack Dan's thread any further. Moving on.
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LHO wasn't a shooter based on the evidence. Even if he was that is the small part. The stuff that matters is who paid them? Who covered this up? Who continues to cover it up?
Yup. The why?
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The Arthur Vallee license plate story was from an article back in 2008 I believe. I can't find the source for it any more so I am formally retracting it as a "fun fact" pending further investigation. My bad.
Hey Jack, this might be it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170102101206/http://www.hvpress.net/news/138/ARTICLE/4293/2008-05-14.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102101206/http://www.hvpress.net/news/138/ARTICLE/4293/2008-05-14.html)
edit: I see you posted the article text above.
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No. You've explained why YOU THINK it is not relevant. Your (mistaken) opinion doesn't mean Marina's statement is irrelevant to others.
Feel free to make a case for its relevance, when everything else about that incident is considered.
It is a FACT that Marina said that she saw a rifle in the blanket. You just don't understand. Slow down.
Actually it's not. It's a fact that Ilya Mamantov claimed that Marina said that in his translation.
But let's say that the translation was accurate. Then it's also a fact that Marina said that Lee worked at a place on Hines, Lee used to have a rifle in Russia, and that the rifle he had was a dark gun.
So what?
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Hey Jack, this might be it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170102101206/http://www.hvpress.net/news/138/ARTICLE/4293/2008-05-14.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102101206/http://www.hvpress.net/news/138/ARTICLE/4293/2008-05-14.html)
Thank you for posting the link....A very interesting article. I've read Bolden's book and I don't believe the Ford Falcon with NY Plates is mentioned. Bolden does say that Hoover refused to help the Secret Service in interdicting he plotters in Chicago. There's no doubt in my mind that there was a plot to murder JFK in Chicago in September, at the time that Lee Oswald was supposedly on his Mexico City odyssey .....
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If that group was so powerful ... the DPD would have rushed in the TSBD immediately
and if he came out it should have been feet first. .
Perhaps true if Oswald was the shooter. But who in their right mind would rely on Oswald alone to be the shooter? Who in their right mind would use a crappy bolt action rifle with a useless scope to do the shooting? That's what the Mauser was for. The MC was the plant gun and the DPD staged the crime scene before and after the Big Event. They needed to clear out the actual shooters and then convince Oswald to stick around and wait to be caught and carried out feet 1st. Oswald was having none of that. He might have fled the scene once he realized he was being set up as the patsy. IMO, he did everything according to plan until things went awry at the pick up location where Tippit got murdered. That's when Oswald knew he was the pasty.
All it takes is 1 other person involved in the Big Event for Oswald to not be a lone nut assassin. I'd say the actions of the Keystone DPD and much of the evidence demonstrate that this was clearly a conspiracy. In which case, Oswald was not a lone nut, he was a patsy. Every good coup needs one. How involved he was in the Big Event, is the only thing up for debate. IMO.
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Perhaps true if Oswald was the shooter. But who in their right mind would rely on Oswald alone to be the shooter? Who in their right mind would use a crappy bolt action rifle with a useless scope to do the shooting? That's what the Mauser was for. The MC was the plant gun and the DPD staged the crime scene before and after the Big Event. They needed to clear out the actual shooters and then convince Oswald to stick around and wait to be caught and carried out feet 1st. Oswald was having none of that. He might have fled the scene once he realized he was being set up as the patsy. IMO, he did everything according to plan until things went awry at the pick up location where Tippit got murdered. That's when Oswald knew he was the pasty.
All it takes is 1 other person involved in the Big Event for Oswald to not be a lone nut assassin. I'd say the actions of the Keystone DPD and much of the evidence demonstrate that this was clearly a conspiracy. In which case, Oswald was not a lone nut, he was a patsy. Every good coup needs one. How involved he was in the Big Event, is the only thing up for debate. IMO.
the DPD staged the crime scene before and after the Big Event.
Not the entire DPD.... But some of the Key conspirators were high ranking officers at the DPD.... Captain Fritz was right at the top.
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Feel free to make a case for its relevance, when everything else about that incident is considered.
Actually it's not. It's a fact that Ilya Mamantov claimed that Marina said that in his translation.
But let's say that the translation was accurate. Then it's also a fact that Marina said that Lee worked at a place on Hines, Lee used to have a rifle in Russia, and that the rifle he had was a dark gun.
So what?
So.... Marina stated (in a signed affidavit, unless Marina's signature was not signed by herself) that she saw a rifle in the blanket.
That's it. No more. No less.
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the DPD staged the crime scene before and after the Big Event.
Not the entire DPD.... But some of the Key conspirators were high ranking officers at the DPD.... Captain Fritz was right at the top.
What exactly do you believe Fritz did, related to being a conspirator?
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Perhaps true if Oswald was the shooter. But who in their right mind would rely on Oswald alone to be the shooter? Who in their right mind would use a crappy bolt action rifle with a useless scope to do the shooting? That's what the Mauser was for. The MC was the plant gun and the DPD staged the crime scene before and after the Big Event. They needed to clear out the actual shooters and then convince Oswald to stick around and wait to be caught and carried out feet 1st. Oswald was having none of that. He might have fled the scene once he realized he was being set up as the patsy. IMO, he did everything according to plan until things went awry at the pick up location where Tippit got murdered. That's when Oswald knew he was the pasty.
All it takes is 1 other person involved in the Big Event for Oswald to not be a lone nut assassin. I'd say the actions of the Keystone DPD and much of the evidence demonstrate that this was clearly a conspiracy. In which case, Oswald was not a lone nut, he was a patsy. Every good coup needs one. How involved he was in the Big Event, is the only thing up for debate. IMO.
The erratic route that Oswald took to reach his rooming house would indicate he realized he had been patsied Prior to leaving the TSBD. While on-the-fly, he was simultaneously considering what to do next.
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What exactly do you believe Fritz did, related to being a conspirator?
Controlled the investigators subordinate to him..... And those subordinates destroyed the original photos and substituted "reconstructed photos" and then presented them as authentic photos .
That is evidence tampering and it is a felony....
He said that he took no notes during the interrogation of Lee Oswald.... You've seen the notes he scribbled....So at the least he was a damned liar....
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Controlled the investigators subordinate to him..... And those subordinates destroyed the original photos and substituted "reconstructed photos" and then presented them as authentic photos .
That is evidence tampering and it is a felony....
He said that he took no notes during the interrogation of Lee Oswald.... You've seen the notes he scribbled....So at the least he was a damned liar....
As for the notes, Fritz could have put those down after the interrogations, based on memory.
I was asking though, in your opinion, was Fritz directly involved in framing Lee Oswald? Did Fritz know about the assassination beforehand?
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As for the notes, Fritz could have put those down after the interrogations, based on memory.
I was asking though, in your opinion, was Fritz directly involved in framing Lee Oswald? Did Fritz know about the assassination beforehand?
I believe that he did.....
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I believe that he did.....
And yet, after the assassination happens, Fritz then (apparently at the very extreme last minute) tries to add Buell Frazier as one of the patsies?
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And yet, after the assassination happens, Fritz then (apparently at the very extreme last minute) tries to add Buell Frazier as one of the patsies?
Not only that but he interrogates the Hell out of Molina.
It doesn't add up.
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So.... Marina stated (in a signed affidavit, unless Marina's signature was not signed by herself)
No, she stated something in Russian.
that she saw a rifle in the blanket.
That's it. No more. No less.
Ok. That's about as useful as Marina stating that Oswald took a gun to go take a look at Nixon.
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Not only that but he interrogates the Hell out of Molina.
It doesn't add up.
Exactly.
I'm curious about Cakebread's thoughts on it.
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Perhaps true if Oswald was the shooter. But who in their right mind would rely on Oswald alone to be the shooter? Who in their right mind would use a crappy bolt action rifle with a useless scope to do the shooting? That's what the Mauser was for. The MC was the plant gun and the DPD staged the crime scene before and after the Big Event. They needed to clear out the actual shooters and then convince Oswald to stick around and wait to be caught and carried out feet 1st. Oswald was having none of that. He might have fled the scene once he realized he was being set up as the patsy. IMO, he did everything according to plan until things went awry at the pick up location where Tippit got murdered. That's when Oswald knew he was the pasty.
All it takes is 1 other person involved in the Big Event for Oswald to not be a lone nut assassin. I'd say the actions of the Keystone DPD and much of the evidence demonstrate that this was clearly a conspiracy. In which case, Oswald was not a lone nut, he was a patsy. Every good coup needs one. How involved he was in the Big Event, is the only thing up for debate. IMO.
Hey, Jack. To me anyway Oswald was involved up to his neck ... Yes, most likely ... not the shooter.
Here's my take on his involvement.
If you look at what the LN's support they have two big things going for them.
One - the physical evidence and .... and ... and ... his own actions
Now let's just look at the latter for a second.
Just before the Big Event as you put it.
Goes home Thursday ... not his regular routine.
Leaves wedding ring and a sizable amount of money behind Why?
Well, to me, he is saying Good-bye and I don't know, given the events of the day,
how anyone could think otherwise.
Brings a package to work.
Tells Frazier he won't be needing a ride home.
Walks well ahead of Frazier going into the TSBD.
Gees, talk about telegraphing what he's about to do.
Now, let's just say Oswald was part of a team of two to three people.
And let's say further that they were going to escape in a station wagon
and he's job was to direct the police's attention to him. To be a decoy of sorts.
Him having his own escape plans AND them having their own plan by leaving by plane
at Red Bird Airfield.
So ... if this was Oswald's plan where would he be, but on the lower floors?
Staying in the background. Not drawing attention to himself.
Since he was involved he'd have no WTF moment with anyone. No asking of questions.
Nothing. Maybe drinking a pop. Just biding his time so he could calmly walk out of the building
which was sure to be sealed off in let's say, 5 -10 minutes, or so he thought
And .. it goes on but this is what I believe took place and I still maintain that ALL assassins
were captured that day and then ... given the identity of these assassins all roads had to lead to Oswald
acting alone.
Just my opinion of course with scanty evidence to support me.
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Goes home Thursday ... not his regular routine.
But not the first time he broke his regular routine.
Leaves wedding ring and a sizable amount of money behind Why?
Well, to me, he is saying Good-bye and I don't know, given the events of the day,
how anyone could think otherwise.
They had an argument and she refused to move back in with him.
Brings a package to work.
That Frazier and Randle said was not long enough to carry the alleged murder weapon.
Tells Frazier he won't be needing a ride home.
Again, he and Marina had a fight and she refused to move back in with him.
Walks well ahead of Frazier going into the TSBD.
Frazier was lollygagging, first "charging" his battery and then looking at the trains.
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But not the first time he broke his regular routine.
They had an argument and she refused to move back in with him.
That Frazier and Randle said was not long enough to carry the alleged murder weapon.
Again, he and Marina had a fight and she refused to move back in with him.
Frazier was lollygagging, first "charging" his battery and then looking at the trains.
John, am I to believe that Oswald's marriage was over the same time he was being framed as a patsy?
Here again, the unluckiest guy who ever lived syndrome. If he was indoors when the shooting began how did he know there were shots aimed at the President or if any hit or killed him? He went from just a regular guy going to work and suddenly coming to the realization that he was going to be framed for this. Again, one would think that at some time he would have called his wife and asked her in Russian given Paine's religious viewpoints ... Could you go to the garage and see if the rifle is still there? At least that way
he would know for sure.
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Hey, Jack. To me anyway Oswald was involved up to his neck ... Yes, most likely ... not the shooter.
Here's my take on his involvement.
If you look at what the LN's support they have two big things going for them.
One - the physical evidence and .... and ... and ... his own actions
Now let's just look at the latter for a second.
Just before the Big Event as you put it.
Goes home Thursday ... not his regular routine.
Leaves wedding ring and a sizable amount of money behind Why?
Well, to me, he is saying Good-bye and I don't know, given the events of the day,
how anyone could think otherwise.
Brings a package to work.
Tells Frazier he won't be needing a ride home.
Walks well ahead of Frazier going into the TSBD.
Gees, talk about telegraphing what he's about to do.
Now, let's just say Oswald was part of a team of two to three people.
And let's say further that they were going to escape in a station wagon
and he's job was to direct the police's attention to him. To be a decoy of sorts.
Him having his own escape plans AND them having their own plan by leaving by plane
at Red Bird Airfield.
So ... if this was Oswald's plan where would he be, but on the lower floors?
Staying in the background. Not drawing attention to himself.
Since he was involved he'd have no WTF moment with anyone. No asking of questions.
Nothing. Maybe drinking a pop. Just biding his time so he could calmly walk out of the building
which was sure to be sealed off in let's say, 5 -10 minutes, or so he thought
And .. it goes on but this is what I believe took place and I still maintain that ALL assassins
were captured that day and then ... given the identity of these assassins all roads had to lead to Oswald
acting alone.
Just my opinion of course with scanty evidence to support me.
Goes home Thursday ... not his regular routine.
He knows that if the hoax shooting at JFK is activated he'll have to flee for Cuba ...which is the role he's playing. Very much like the role he played at Walker's house back in April.
Leaves wedding ring and a sizable amount of money behind Why?
He realizes how dangerous this game is and he may wind up dead....Just as he told Marina in the note he left for her on the night of April 10 1963.... "If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city Jail is located at the end of the bridge through which we always passed on going to the city"
Well, to me, he is saying Good-bye and I don't know, given the events of the day, how anyone could think otherwise.
You're right.....That's exactly what he was doing.....Not Unlike a soldier who knows he's going off to combat, and might not return.
Brings a package to work.
He told Fritz the sack contained his lunch.... The conspirators have covered up Lee's statement and cast sinister implications on the sack he carried.... But they appear as KOOKS because the sack was NOT big enough to have held a carcano rifle.
Tells Frazier he won't be needing a ride home.
Yes...He thought that he'd be fleeing because someone had shot AT JFK and the evidence that had been planted would indicate that it was he who had fired the shots ...Just like the Walker incident.
Walks well ahead of Frazier going into the TSBD.
He knew he had only a couple of minutes to get inside before it was after 8:00 o'clock.....And the rain had weakened his lunch sack so he had to put his hand under the sack to prevent his lunch from falling out....
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Hey, Jack. To me anyway Oswald was involved up to his neck ... Yes, most likely ... not the shooter.
Here's my take on his involvement.
If you look at what the LN's support they have two big things going for them.
One - the physical evidence
Evidence like the MC rifle which Oswald smuggled into the TSBD, disassembled (including a useless scope) and placed in a paper bag, which he reassembled on the 6th floor without leaving a single finger print on the rifle, scope, clip and ammo? How was it even possible to NOT leave his prints on the rifle? And why weren't his prints all over the barricade of boxes near the SN?
Evidence like the 3 spent hulls in a tight group near the window in the SN which Fritz picked up with his bare hands, then later staged for photos in a more "believable" arrangement?
You mean like the 6+ BYPs with Oswald holding the murder weapons and commie lit, that Marina said she only took 2 of and burned one? And how several photos showed up in the darndest places including a darkroom cutout of a BY photo that had not even been submitted into evidence. Baaa.
Never mind that no one has matched Oswald's shooting using a MC and a wonky scope, 3 shots, 2 hits in under 10 secs. And why would Oswald include the scope with the disassembled MC when he knew he would be using the iron sights? Ans: because the MC had to include the scope to match the rifle he was holding in the BYPs, as part of his sheep-dipping.
And how did 1 of those FMJ bullets somehow explode in JFK's head? And how did the MB crash thru flesh and bone and magically show up on the wrong gurney, without a trace of blood, flesh or bone on it, in magical swimming pool condition? Note, all questions are rhetorical.
and .... and ... and ... his own actions
Now let's just look at the latter for a second.
Just before the Big Event as you put it.
Goes home Thursday ... not his regular routine.
Leaves wedding ring and a sizable amount of money behind Why?
Well, to me, he is saying Good-bye and I don't know, given the events of the day,
how anyone could think otherwise.
Brings a package to work.
Tells Frazier he won't be needing a ride home.
Walks well ahead of Frazier going into the TSBD.
Gees, talk about telegraphing what he's about to do.
Now, let's just say Oswald was part of a team of two to three people.
And let's say further that they were going to escape in a station wagon
and he's job was to direct the police's attention to him. To be a decoy of sorts.
Him having his own escape plans AND them having their own plan by leaving by plane
at Red Bird Airfield.
So ... if this was Oswald's plan where would he be, but on the lower floors?
Staying in the background. Not drawing attention to himself.
Since he was involved he'd have no WTF moment with anyone. No asking of questions.
Nothing. Maybe drinking a pop. Just biding his time so he could calmly walk out of the building
which was sure to be sealed off in let's say, 5 -10 minutes, or so he thought
And .. it goes on but this is what I believe took place and I still maintain that ALL assassins
were captured that day and then ... given the identity of these assassins all roads had to lead to Oswald
acting alone.
Just my opinion of course with scanty evidence to support me.
I agree that all of Oswald's actions indicate his degree of involvement but the bottom line is if Oswald was not the shooter then he was part of a conspiracy. And if this was a conspiracy then Oswald was not a lone nut. He could have known that he was the designated patsy from the get go, which is why he went along with all the sheep-dipping. But to go along with it all, he must have been promised a safe escape and refuge out of the country. I'm sure he knew the risks going in but he naively thought the CIA had his back. Instead he was silenced right in front of the Keystone DPD, who yet again achieved plausible deniability thru the guise of ineptitude. Oswald was exactly what he claimed to be, a patsy that knew too much.
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Not only that but he interrogates the Hell out of Molina.
It doesn't add up.
We don't know what Hoover was trying to do .....But we do know that Hoover thought that Molina was a communist. He may have been trying to frame Molina as Lee's accomplice..... but Molina foiled his scheme and had an airtight alibi.
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We don't know what Hoover was trying to do .....But we do know that Hoover thought that Molina was a communist. He may have been trying to frame Molina as Lee's accomplice..... but Molina foiled his scheme and had an airtight alibi.
If they had Lee dead to rights and soon to be dead in cuffs
they wouldn't have needed Molina at all. Let alone interrogate him
for six hours. A patsy if needed?
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He told Fritz the sack contained his lunch.... The conspirators have covered up Lee's statement and cast sinister implications on the sack he carried.... But they appear as KOOKS because the sack was NOT big enough to have held a carcano rifle.
According to a fellow who wasn't paying much attention.
He knew he had only a couple of minutes to get inside before it was after 8:00 o'clock.....And the rain had weakened his lunch sack so he had to put his hand under the sack to prevent his lunch from falling out....
A sack that delicate makes me wonder why he would go through ALL that trouble to open the back door and lay it across the back seat. The first heavy braking would send it flying forward off the seat. Better just putting it on your lap, like a normal person would do.
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Bill Brown, Richard Smith, God bless you people for having the fortitude to engage these mindless conspiracy types who are no better than Sean Hannity, Alex Jones and Donald Trump. They echo the same anti-government first generation kooks of some 50 years ago. Same rhetoric. Anybody but Oswald. Gary Mack, may he rest in peace said it best. Gary, for so many years a devout conspiracy advocate finally admitted ?there may have been a conspiracy but I can?t prove it and neither can anybody else?. I?ve stated publicly I cannot say with 100% certainty somebody wasn?t pulling Oswald?s strings. I can state with 100% certainly Oswald, by himself killed Kennedy. Fortunately, when this current group of misfits pass idly into their graves, their ungodly world views will go with them and rightfully so. There is little interest or enthusiasm in today?s younger Americans about JFK, Oswald or anything to do with 11/22/63. It?s in the history books where it belongs. I was recently watching Jeopardy with my grandson. The show obviously attracts some very intelligent people. On this show, the 3 players appeared to be 25-30, 40-45 and perhaps 50-55. The question asked: this man became POTUS on 11/22/63? One responded Richard Nixon. One had a ? mark and the oldest answered, who was LBJ? Case closed.
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There is one conspiracy theory I have that probably LN might accept and that is that someone figured out Oswald was a Bipolar personality, and possibly OCD, after the Walker shooting, so they figured if they could put Oswald in proximity to a target that he would feel compelled to shoot at, because of his mental illness, then he probably would do so.
So they set up a job for him, in the TSBD, or they found out he had a job in TSBD and because of their connection to LBJ, were able to suggest the route for the JFK motorcade should pass by TSBD. Then all this conspirator has to do is sit back, make sure his building has no security and allow his Oswald employee have access to all floors. Then its just a matter of probability, and the conspirator(s) may have actually calculated the probability was "high" that the Oswald nut would take a shot at the POTUS motorcade.
That conspirator could have been the owner of TSBD, David Harold Byrd, who certainly was in the camp of rightwing element that disliked JFK and probably considered JFK was a traitor. After the tragic event, Byrd, removed the window frame he thought was the sniper window and hung it in his gallery of dead animal heads.
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There is one conspiracy theory I have that probably LN might accept and that is that someone figured out Oswald was a Bipolar personality, and possibly OCD, after the Walker shooting, so they figured if they could put Oswald in proximity to a target that he would feel compelled to shoot at, because of his mental illness, then he probably would do so.
So they set up a job for him, in the TSBD, or they found out he had a job in TSBD and because of their connection to LBJ, were able to suggest the route for the JFK motorcade should pass by TSBD. Then all this conspirator has to do is sit back, make sure his building has no security and allow his Oswald employee have access to all floors. Then its just a matter of probability, and the conspirator(s) may have actually calculated the probability was "high" that the Oswald nut would take a shot at the POTUS motorcade.
That conspirator could have been the owner of TSBD, David Harold Byrd, who certainly was in the camp of rightwing element that disliked JFK and probably considered JFK was a traitor. After the tragic event, Byrd, removed the window frame he thought was the sniper window and hung it in his gallery of dead animal heads.
No. This is one LNer who does not accept this conspiracy theory. Because if it is true than the following people were all involved in the conspiracy:
** Buell Frazier ? who agreed to move over one hundred miles to move in with his sister?s family. Without this, the job for Oswald would not be discovered.
** Linnie Randle ? who invited Buell Frazier to come live with her family. Without this, Buell Frazier would never get a job in the Dallas area.
** Dorothy Roberts ? who invited some neighbors to come over for coffee. Without her, Ruth Paine would not meet Linnie Randle.
** Ruth Paine ? who, at Dorothy Roberts little get together, apparently discovered a possible job for Oswald at the TSBD.
Plus, we need a few other people involved. Like the husband of Linnie Randle. And the Employment agency that steered Buell Frazier to a job at the TSBD. And Mr. Truly, the TSBD supervisor, because if he doesn?t hire both Buell Frazier and Oswald, the whole intricate plot falls apart.
Question:
Am I to believe that all these people were part of this conspiracy?
Am I to believe everyone in Texas was a part of this conspiracy?
No conspiracy that selects Oswald to take part before mid-October 1963, makes sense.
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If they had Lee dead to rights and soon to be dead in cuffs
they wouldn't have needed Molina at all. Let alone interrogate him
for six hours. A patsy if needed?
Dan,
Don't overlook a common police interrogation technique. Treat all suspects as if they are guilty and force them to prove they are innocent.
See the FBI interview of William Chambers. Captain Jones pulls him aside and instructs him that when interrogating the three tramps,
"Find out which one shot the President".
FBI 124-10179-10312
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312
page 2
That's the way Buell Wesley Frazier was treated. That's the way Joe Molina was treated.
Steve Thomas
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BUMP
==========================================
Not the entire DPD.... But some of the Key conspirators were high ranking officers at the DPD.... Captain Fritz was right at the top.
What exactly do you believe Fritz did, related to being a conspirator?
Controlled the investigators subordinate to him..... And those subordinates destroyed the original photos and substituted "reconstructed photos" and then presented them as authentic photos .
That is evidence tampering and it is a felony....
He said that he took no notes during the interrogation of Lee Oswald.... You've seen the notes he scribbled....So at the least he was a damned liar....
As for the notes, Fritz could have put those down after the interrogations, based on memory.
I was asking though, in your opinion, was Fritz directly involved in framing Lee Oswald? Did Fritz know about the assassination beforehand?
I believe that he did.....
And yet, after the assassination happens, Fritz then (apparently at the very extreme last minute) tries to add Buell Frazier as one of the patsies?
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Dan,
Don't overlook a common police interrogation technique. Treat all suspects as if they are guilty and force them to prove they are innocent.
See the FBI interview of William Chambers. Captain Jones pulls him aside and instructs him that when interrogating the three tramps,
"Find out which one shot the President".
FBI 124-10179-10312
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312
page 2
That's the way Buell Wesley Frazier was treated. That's the way Joe Molina was treated.
Steve Thomas
I agree with you, Steve, but if the screws were put to Frazier and Molina with this common police interrogation technique that tells me the DPD didn't know the quote unquote - truth - beforehand
as some Ct's around here like to claim. They do seem to be investigating as they should, not assisting
to arrive to a pre set conclusion. Btw ... can you imagine if one did cave in under the pressure ...
Okay, okay. I helped Ozzie do it. I can't take this anymore. What would the police say? Oops ...
(Now we've got to find a way to incorporate these guys when we're already having enough trouble
trying to make it look like Oswald did it alone.)
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According to a fellow who wasn't paying much attention.
A sack that delicate makes me wonder why he would go through ALL that trouble to open the back door and lay it across the back seat. The first heavy braking would send it flying forward off the seat. Better just putting it on your lap, like a normal person would do.
A sack that delicate makes me wonder why he would go through ALL that trouble to open the back door and lay it across the back seat. The first heavy braking would send it flying forward off the seat. Better just putting it on your lap, like a normal person would do.
You wonder and fret over a trivial action like a man placing his lunch on the back seat?? And refer to that simple act as "ALL that trouble"....and then postulate that the sack would "fly off the seat" during the breakneck Baja race to the TSBD.
C'mon Jerry..... You're makin yourself look like a weak minded moron.
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I agree with you, Steve, but if the screws were put to Frazier and Molina with this common police interrogation technique that tells me the DPD didn't know the quote unquote - truth - beforehand
as some Ct's around here like to claim. They do seem to be investigating as they should, not assisting
to arrive to a pre set conclusion. Btw ... can you imagine if one did cave in under the pressure ...
Okay, okay. I helped Ozzie do it. I can't take this anymore. What would the police say? Oops ...
(Now we've got to find a way to incorporate these guys when we're already having enough trouble
trying to make it look like Oswald did it alone.)
They do seem to be investigating
You're blind.....
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Oswald was involved. Others were involved too IMO.
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Oswald was involved. Others were involved too IMO.
Thanks, Jon. I totally agree with you. I also go that extra step and state those others were
captured and it is this capture which caused everything to point back to Oswald.
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Thanks, Jon. I totally agree with you. I also go that extra step and state those others were
captured and it is this capture which caused everything to point back to Oswald.
I think his accomplices got away and Oswald would've gotten away too if he didn't run into JD Tippit.
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I think his accomplices got away and Oswald would've gotten away too if he didn't run into JD Tippit.
Unbelievable!!...... If you've read the Warren Report and you're reasonably intelligent then you should be able to see that the official tale is a concocted lie. ( Many highly intelligent people have reached this conclusion. )
Lee Oswald was exactly what he said he was..... A patsy.
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Bill Brown, Richard Smith, God bless you people for having the fortitude to engage these mindless conspiracy types who are no better than Sean Hannity, Alex Jones and Donald Trump. They echo the same anti-government first generation kooks of some 50 years ago. Same rhetoric. Anybody but Oswald. Gary Mack, may he rest in peace said it best. Gary, for so many years a devout conspiracy advocate finally admitted ?there may have been a conspiracy but I can?t prove it and neither can anybody else?. I?ve stated publicly I cannot say with 100% certainty somebody wasn?t pulling Oswald?s strings. I can state with 100% certainly Oswald, by himself killed Kennedy. Fortunately, when this current group of misfits pass idly into their graves, their ungodly world views will go with them and rightfully so. There is little interest or enthusiasm in today?s younger Americans about JFK, Oswald or anything to do with 11/22/63. It?s in the history books where it belongs. I was recently watching Jeopardy with my grandson. The show obviously attracts some very intelligent people. On this show, the 3 players appeared to be 25-30, 40-45 and perhaps 50-55. The question asked: this man became POTUS on 11/22/63? One responded Richard Nixon. One had a ? mark and the oldest answered, who was LBJ? Case closed.
I like to put it this way: I'm 100% sure that Oswald probably did it.
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They do seem to be investigating
You're blind.....
Sorry, Walt. I keep forgetting your hoax shot theory carries more weight than my own.
Maybe he was distracted or something else was on his mind which bothered him?
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Sorry, Walt. I keep forgetting your hoax shot theory carries more weight than my own.
Maybe he was distracted or something else was on his mind which bothered him?
Forget theories.... USE YOUR HEAD..... It's obvious that the Government lied to us and covered up the truth.
You wouldn't be posting in this forum if you believed the official tale..... Would you?
They told us that Lee Oswald was guilty..... Why doesn't the evidence support their story? Why do they have to twist the stories of the witnesses?
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I agree with you, Steve, but if the screws were put to Frazier and Molina with this common police interrogation technique that tells me the DPD didn't know the quote unquote - truth - beforehand
as some Ct's around here like to claim. They do seem to be investigating as they should, not assisting
to arrive to a pre set conclusion. Btw ... can you imagine if one did cave in under the pressure ...
Okay, okay. I helped Ozzie do it. I can't take this anymore. What would the police say? Oops ...
(Now we've got to find a way to incorporate these guys when we're already having enough trouble
trying to make it look like Oswald did it alone.)
Dan,
I personally don't think the DPD had knowledge beforehand
Both Fritz and Curry told the WC they had no idea who Lee Harvey was and did not know he was in Dallas.
IF I am right, he also was not in the Special Service Bureau's DPD Intelligence files.
If Frazier and Molina had been incarcerated, they would have been quietly let go at 9:25 AM on November 26th, along with John Elrod, Artur McDuffie, Daniel Wayne Douglas, and the three tramps.
Steve Thomas
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C'mon Jerry..... You're makin yourself look like a weak minded moron.
Is that anything like you accusing Will Fritz of being in on the conspiracy to assassinate the President and then you run away when you are asked to explain why Fritz would try to add Buell Frazier to the list of patsies, after the fact?
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Oswald was 100% innocent he was clueless as to what happened on that day, if you have any doubts about Paine, Frazier, and Randle, then if the truth be known Oswald was not even in Irvin on the 21.11.63.
The case stinks from the very core, not one bit of concrete proof exists to allow a without doubt conviction on the poor guy. He was what he said a patsy meaning he gets blamed for everything and he was according to Milteer a local guy picked up to throw the public off.
Dallas was rampant with racist KKK memebers and they were used to set him up, plain and simple and it is the most logical scenario of this jumbled up circus played before the world in the coup to remove the POTUS.
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Oswald was 100% innocent he was clueless as to what happened on that day, if you have doubts about Paine and Frazier, and Randle, then if the truth be known Oswald was not even in Irvin on the 21.11.63.
The case stinks from the very core, not one bit of concrete proof exists to allow a without doubt conviction on the poor guy. He was what he said a patsy meaning he gets blamed for everything and he was according to Milteer a local guy picked up to throw the public off.
Dallas was rampant with racist KKK memebers and they were used to set him up, plain and simple and the most logical scenario of this jumbled up circus played before the world in the coup to remove the POTUS.
Speaking of clueless. You are the epitome of cluelessness. I've yet to see you offer anything of value here. All you do is rant.
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Speaking of clueless. You are the epitome of cluelessness. I've yet to see you offer anything of value here. All you do is rant.
Of cousre I rant about the political and social situation in Dallas at the time, this is what the whole case is about, the area was nothing but a stinking racist cest pit, full of the KKK and right wing hillbillies who killed the POTUS and framed an innocent man who had the brains to escape them, if only he had stayed away then they would have had to blame someone else, for their killing.
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Of cousre I rant about the political and social situation in Dallas at the time, this is what the whole case is about, the area was nothing but a stinking racist cest pit, full of the KKK and right wing hillbillies who killed the POTUS and framed an innocent man who had the brains to escape them, if only he had stayed away then they would have had to blame someone else, for their killing.
Your ranting about the political and social situation in Dallas at the time in no way addresses the evidence that a hardcore committed leftist named Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people that day.
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Your ranting about the political and social situation in Dallas at the time in no way addresses the evidence that a hardcore committed leftist named Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people that day.
The social and political situation is why you are led to believe that a hardcore committed leftist named Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people that day, this evidence was planted to make him look guilty while the escaped real murderers who were more than just unhappy about J.F.K's foriegn and domestic policies.
Why are you so blind as to not be able to read between the lines, the guy did not know what it was about no one told him anything except he was accused of murdering a policeman, he was brough in because he lived in the Soviet Union, he was according to himself just a patsy, and according to Milteer, someone like him would be blamed to throw the public off his wife had not seen him until the weekend before his arrest, Paine Frazier and the rest were all right wing KKK racists.
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Of cousre I rant about the political and social situation in Dallas at the time, this is what the whole case is about, the area was nothing but a stinking racist cest pit, full of the KKK and right wing hillbillies who killed the POTUS and framed an innocent man who had the brains to escape them, if only he had stayed away then they would have had to blame someone else, for their killing.
Your use of the term "hillbillies" displays that you have more in common with the KKK than you realize.
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Your use of the term "hillbillies" displays that you have more in common with the KKK than you realize.
No silly I am an Irish Catholic and these hillbillie kkk heads would during the 60's have hated J.F.K for the same reasons, this is why they took part in his death, and covered it up by blaming a communist and then bumping him off by getting a Jewish person to do it, 3 birds with one stone.
This the sad reality of the bigger picture, all of the minute pieces of evidence are nothing compared to how this sticks out.
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No silly I am an Irish Catholic and these hillbillie kkk heads would during the 60's have hated J.F.K for the same reasons, this is why they took part in his death, and covered it up by blaming a communist and then bumping him off by getting a Jewish person to do it, 3 birds with one stone.
This the sad reality of the bigger picture, all of the minute pieces of evidence are nothing compared to how this sticks out.
Being "Irish Catholic" has No relevance in your using the slanderous term "hillbillies".
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Being "Irish Catholic" has No relevance in your using the slanderous term "hillbillies".
LOL! That's not slanderous. You're insanely hypersensitive, or shut off from the real world.
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Being "Irish Catholic" has No relevance in your using the slanderous term "hillbillies".
Well in IMO being Irish Catholic is what got JFK killed, by the very people who you say I am slandering, what do you find offensive about the term hillbillie, can you define it please? who were they? and why is that term used to describe them? just look at the threats they made to the DPD during the lead up and over the weekend of the events, even Hoover had to warn Johnson to double his security on his ranch, to be safe from them, and now you get all protective because I call them a name, which actually defines them. Come back to the real world I won't hold punches over what I believe.
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LOL! That's not slanderous. You're insanely hypersensitive, or shut off from the read world.
This must be the first time we both agree on something Canook
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Well in IMO being Irish Catholic is what got JFK killed, by the very people who you say I am slandering, what do you find offensive about the term hillbillie, can you define it please? who were they? and why is that term used to describe them? just look at the threats they made to the DPD during the lead up and over the weekend of the events, even Hoover had to warn Johnson to double his security on his ranch, to be safe from them, and now you get all protective because I call them a name, which actually defines them. Come back to the real world I won't hold punches over what I believe.
Well in IMO being Irish Catholic is what got JFK killed,
Being Catholic was certainly part of the mix.... But being Irish probably wasn't part of it.....Thee KKK mind set and influence was still very much alive in Dallas .....
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LOL! That's not slanderous. You're insanely hypersensitive, or shut off from the real world.
The term "hillbillies" is used all the time to slander those living in The South. This is a direct result of decades of Hollywood's mischaracterizations/Indoctrination. Automatically assuming a member of the KKK is a "hillbilly" being a case on point. I grew up in So. Cal, and the KKK had an HQ located in El Monte. That HQ was Not manned by people from The South.
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The term "hillbillies" is used all the time to slander those living in The South. This is a direct result of decades of Hollywood's mischaracterizations/Indoctrination. Automatically assuming a member of the KKK is a "hillbilly" being a case on point. I grew up in So. Cal, and the KKK had an HQ located in El Monte. That HQ was Not manned by people from The South.
Mick is reserving the term for the Dallas area. Curry, Truly and the like are "redneck" "crackers."
I did take issue with his thoughts that the race riots of the 1960s were in the South and that Irish-Catholics weren't in proximity to it.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/a4376c.jpg)
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Mick is reserving the term for the Dallas area. Curry, Truly and the like are "redneck" "crackers."
I did take issue with his thoughts that the race riots of the 1960s were in the South and that Irish-Catholics weren't in proximity to it.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/a4376c.jpg)
Where did I mention race riots???
I wrote that the KKK were rampant in Dallas which would have allowed to preperation and cover up to move more smooth. I also believe that members of law enforcement were threatened as were some witnesses.
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Oswald set-up the Sniper's Nest/Nook. That was his Only designated function that day. He worked there, handled/moved boxes there, and could perform this task without drawing attention to his actions. He was instructed to wait inside the TSBD Breakroom for any further instructions that might be needed. Otherwise, he was supposed to stay at the TSBD and finish his work shift or depart if the workers were dismissed early due to the shooting. It is absurd to believe that Oswald descended the stairs, and after entering the vestibule, decided to turn Left and enter the Breakroom. After entering the vestibule, turning Right would have taken Oswald to a hallway which then would have led him Directly to a stairway going Down and Out of the TSBD. Filling book orders inside the TSBD meant Oswald knew the lay-out of the TSBD like the back of his hand. There is No Way a shooter makes the choice to confine himself in a Breakroom or any 4 sided room for that matter. He stays on the Move seeking Escape. (The carcano was stolen from the Paine garage and planted at the TSBD)
Oswald set-up the Sniper's Nest/Nook. I emphatically disagree!
He was instructed (understood that he would need) to wait inside the TSBD Breakroom for any further instructions that might be needed. out of sight
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I agree with you, Steve, but if the screws were put to Frazier and Molina with this common police interrogation technique that tells me the DPD didn't know the quote unquote - truth - beforehand
as some Ct's around here like to claim. They do seem to be investigating as they should, not assisting
to arrive to a pre set conclusion. Btw ... can you imagine if one did cave in under the pressure ...
Okay, okay. I helped Ozzie do it. I can't take this anymore. What would the police say? Oops ...
(Now we've got to find a way to incorporate these guys when we're already having enough trouble
trying to make it look like Oswald did it alone.)
How do you assume it would have worked if DPD was "in on it"?
...They do seem to be investigating as they should, not assisting
to arrive to a pre set conclusion. ....
I cannot comprehend your thinking on this. Who was "they".....the Chief, Capt. Will Fritz, Capt. Ralph Westbrook, Lt. Jack Revell, Det. Potts,
or Rose.....? You think it is reasonable you could discern different behavior or other conduct by them in their approach to investigation of the
JFK and Tippit shootings on the evening of November 22, if "they" were "in on it"?
Your point is illustrative of why I commit myself to, compared to what you seem to do, narrow presentation of well supported facts.
With self imposed restraint, many here might come to see that it is reasonable and more informative to speculate less, present your facts
and let them compete with the all too prevalent vague nonsense and unreasonable suspicions.
You probably even assume you keep your posts reasonable.
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There is one conspiracy theory I have that probably LN might accept and that is that someone figured out Oswald was a Bipolar personality, and possibly OCD, after the Walker shooting, so they figured if they could put Oswald in proximity to a target that he would feel compelled to shoot at, because of his mental illness, then he probably would do so.
So they set up a job for him, in the TSBD, or they found out he had a job in TSBD and because of their connection to LBJ, were able to suggest the route for the JFK motorcade should pass by TSBD. Then all this conspirator has to do is sit back, make sure his building has no security and allow his Oswald employee have access to all floors. Then its just a matter of probability, and the conspirator(s) may have actually calculated the probability was "high" that the Oswald nut would take a shot at the POTUS motorcade.
That conspirator could have been the owner of TSBD, David Harold Byrd, who certainly was in the camp of rightwing element that disliked JFK and probably considered JFK was a traitor. After the tragic event, Byrd, removed the window frame he thought was the sniper window and hung it in his gallery of dead animal heads.
Hey, Zeon. The LN's already believe Oswald acted alone and his motives may have varied, i.e his marriage was breaking up, he took all his frustrations out on Kennedy, he wanted to be remembered, he wanted to strike a blow against capitalism ... whatever. Your theory seems to state that the conspirators would have be relying on his compulsion and, more importantly, good luck for it to take place. Just get him there ... leave the areas open to him and let him take care of the rest. Too much would be riding on chance for that to happen. If they wanted JFK dead they would be increasing the odds ... one way or the other.
Anyway, one way or the other, Byrd seemed to be happy about the whole thing.
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How do you assume it would have worked if DPD was "in on it"?
I cannot comprehend your thinking on this. Who was "they".....the Chief, Capt. Will Fritz, Capt. Ralph Westbrook, Lt. Jack Revell, Det. Potts,
or Rose.....? You think it is reasonable you could discern different behavior or other conduct by them in their approach to investigation of the
JFK and Tippit shootings on the evening of November 22, if "they" were "in on it"?
Your point is illustrative of why I commit myself to, compared to what you seem to do, narrow presentation of well supported facts.
With self imposed restraint, many here might come to see that it is reasonable and more informative to speculate less, present your facts
and let them compete with the all too prevalent vague nonsense and unreasonable suspicions.
You probably even assume you keep your posts reasonable.
I don't know what you mean Tom. I'm saying the DPD were NOT in on it because if they had
been in on it they wouldn't have wasted so much time and energy interrogating, Frazier and Molina.
Steve brought up it was a common interrogating method at the time to press for an admission of guilt.
If you want ... just go back and read the sequence of responses re Walt's opinion on
Fritz being involved in setting Oswald up and see how, Bill, myself and Steve responded.
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Where did I mention race riots???
I wrote that the KKK were rampant in Dallas which would have allowed to preperation and cover up to move more smooth. I also believe that members of law enforcement were threatened as were some witnesses.
Maybe there was another Mick O'Brian in the old Forum. He would make sweeping nasty accusations against the South in general and the Protestants there working in concert to suppress minorities in the 60s. So I told that Mick fellow that there was more racism going on in the North (and where pockets of Irish were, to boot).
And so the research that lead to the map.
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Maybe there was another Mick O'Brian in the old Forum. He would make sweeping nasty accusations against the South in general and the Protestants there working in concert to suppress minorities in the 60s. So I told that Mick fellow that there was more racism going on in the North (and where pockets of Irish were, to boot).
And so the research that lead to the map.
You are serious about that, aren't you?
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Maybe there was another Mick O'Brian in the old Forum. He would make sweeping nasty accusations against the South in general and the Protestants there working in concert to suppress minorities in the 60s. So I told that Mick fellow that there was more racism going on in the North (and where pockets of Irish were, to boot).
And so the research that lead to the map.
Jerry, is that the same Mick that was all about the Irish, JFK being Irish and all. There was a Mick O' brien which looked like a fake name to me, given the lowercase 'b'
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You are serious about that, aren't you?
Tom, I've long suspected that the plot to murder of JFK sprang from the mind of Richard Bissell .......But I know very little about him.
Is there a biography or a personality profile available?
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Jerry, is that the same Mick that was all about the Irish, JFK being Irish and all. There was a Mick O' brien which looked like a fake name to me, given the lowercase 'b'
Yes squire that would be me!! now I am remodified and have a new spelling with a capital B and an a replaces the e.
Well someone has to educate you brainwashed eegits, and yes eegit is a word it can be used in scrabble.
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Is that the same guy who claimed The British Royal family had Kennedy killed because he was catholic?
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Is that the same guy who claimed The British Royal family had Kennedy killed because he was catholic?
Yes, and the same person who said LBJ killed JFK in order to stop the passage of civil rights.
This, of course, is the same LBJ who told the nation after the assassination that the "first thing" the country needed to do to honor Kennedy was pass civil rights.
The same civil rights legislation that he supposedly stopped by killing JFK.
And he then proceeded to work with Dr. King to pass that legislation in July of 1964.
That doesn't make a lick of sense except in certain sections of JFK conspiracy world where up is down and down is up and everybody killed JFK or was involved except poor old Oswald.
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Is that the same guy who claimed The British Royal family had Kennedy killed because he was catholic?
Yes squire I think I implicated those bad ass royals and a few belonging to their Government agencies, it was a protestant backed assasination, so you should have no doubts that british ancestory were in the thick of the planning and cover up.
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Yes, and the same person who said LBJ killed JFK in order to stop the passage of civil rights.
This, of course, is the same LBJ who told the nation after the assassination that the "first thing" the country needed to do to honor Kennedy was pass civil rights.
The same civil rights legislation that he supposedly stopped by killing JFK.
And he then proceeded to work with Dr. King to pass that legislation in July of 1964.
That doesn't make a lick of sense except in certain sections of JFK conspiracy world where up is down and down is up and everybody killed JFK or was involved except poor old Oswald.
I also said that LBJ only carried on with the civil rights bill to appease African Americans into fighting in Vietnam.
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Yes squire I think I implicated those bad ass royals and a few belonging to their Government agencies, it was a protestant backed assasination, so you should have no doubts that british ancestory were in the thick of the planning and cover up.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/thumbs-up-matt-leblanc.gif)
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(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/thumbs-up-matt-leblanc.gif)
Thanks squire I am glad that we both agree on something too, the obvious protestant supported murder is written all over this case.
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No. This is one LNer who does not accept this conspiracy theory. Because if it is true than the following people were all involved in the conspiracy:
** Buell Frazier ? who agreed to move over one hundred miles to move in with his sister?s family. Without this, the job for Oswald would not be discovered.
** Linnie Randle ? who invited Buell Frazier to come live with her family. Without this, Buell Frazier would never get a job in the Dallas area.
** Dorothy Roberts ? who invited some neighbors to come over for coffee. Without her, Ruth Paine would not meet Linnie Randle.
** Ruth Paine ? who, at Dorothy Roberts little get together, apparently discovered a possible job for Oswald at the TSBD.
Plus, we need a few other people involved. Like the husband of Linnie Randle. And the Employment agency that steered Buell Frazier to a job at the TSBD. And Mr. Truly, the TSBD supervisor, because if he doesn?t hire both Buell Frazier and Oswald, the whole intricate plot falls apart.
Question:
Am I to believe that all these people were part of this conspiracy?
Am I to believe everyone in Texas was a part of this conspiracy?
No conspiracy that selects Oswald to take part before mid-October 1963, makes sense.
none of those people have to be involved with Harold Byrd, the owner of TSBD. He might have found out by periodic review of employee list for his building, and discovered the name Oswald, and thought to himself, "I wonder if this is same Oswald that I read about who defected to the USSR? Then its just matter of finding out some more information about Oswald thru some inside source from CIA or FBI, which Bryd could have access too, via having friends like LBJ.
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I'd like to continue with a different aspect as it concerns my post but first,
does anyone know the history re these two curtain rods which were dusted for prints
where the DPD did find one but it did not belong to Oswald?
Btw, I wasn't the first to present this, Kev, did it way back when.
Thanks
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337461/m1/1/?
q=lee%20harvey%20oswald%20curtain%20rods
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I also said that LBJ only carried on with the civil rights bill to appease African Americans into fighting in Vietnam.
Yes..... And LBJ himself said ...."I'll have them N---er's voting Democrat for the next two hundred years".....
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I also said that LBJ only carried on with the civil rights bill to appease African Americans into fighting in Vietnam.
Of course, he coordinated all of this with the Queen of England and the British monarchy.
The JFK assassination is just a vehicle, an event, that many people use to go after whatever demons are in their heads. The CIA, the FBI, the Queen of England (?!).
Nobody takes this seriously but I do wish sometimes that you clowns got another hobby. I mean, the Queen of England and LBJ got together to kill JFK?
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Of course, he coordinated all of this with the Queen of England and the British monarchy.
The JFK assassination is just a vehicle, an event, that many people use to go after whatever demons are in their heads. The CIA, the FBI, the Queen of England (?!).
Nobody takes this seriously but I do wish sometimes that you clowns got another hobby. I mean, the Queen of England and LBJ got together to kill JFK?
The monarchy and their minnions would set the momentum, for the killing, the brit media would be so powerful that they would control the minds of their fellow protestants in America through various communications (all of that anti Russian/Communist crap etc). just look at how they went after lady Diana, by hounding her they caused her death.
It was a similar scenario, with JFK they set the standards to allow his death take place.
What was that Presidential car called the queen victoria was it? for the SS to even joke about naming the car after a royal, shows the influence that they had on American politics.
The brits might have lost the war with the yanks a few years prior, but they then came back in through the back door, to gain more control,more than they could ever have reached on the battlefield, but you could never understand this though you are Eastern European oblivous to Western tactics, of regime change, they did it in Iraq, Libya and countless other places, the attempts on Syria at the moment is a perfect example.
JFK's murder was a regime change wanted and manufactured by the brits &their followers that's all it was, only without physical invasion, they used the likes of the KKK to do the dirty work, just as they use the FSA and ISIS etc in modern times, it stops them from the hassle and openness of putting boots on the ground.
They don't have to sacrifce their own either, in the process.
Wise up lad see the bigger picture and keep an open mind,, all of that so called minute evidence was easy to manipulate.
P.S I am also a great golf player. :-*
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Have you been hit on the had by a golf ball by any chance, Mick?
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Have you been hit on the had by a golf ball by any chance, Mick?
No Ray thank god but I was concussed, after a fall from a push bike, and had a head on collision in my car, but none of this makes a bit of difference to the history of what happened to JFK.
The protestants were out to get him, that's just the way it was.
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I thought you must have suffered some form of brain trauma.
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I thought you must have suffered some form of brain trauma.
;D Mad as a brush but sharp as a whip and honest as they come. I tell it how it is/was if you can't grasp the truth then you need that brain examined mine is AOK
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You seem to be unaware of the difference between a change of leadership and a change of regime.
Kennedys death did not bring about regime change.
Killing Castro probably wouldn't have brought about regime change either.
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You seem to be unaware of the difference between a change of leadership and a change of regime.
Kennedys death did not bring about regime change.
Killing Castro probably wouldn't have brought about regime change either.
Taking out a Man who would have had a different approach on both foreign and domestic policies, and replacing him with another who would do mostly the opposite is as good as regime change in my book. OK they both were from the democratic party, but that's about it.
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As I say. You don't seem to grasp the difference.
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As I say. You don't seem to grasp the difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regime_change
They took out JFK's administration, and put in someone who was not going to do what he would have done, this is as good as a regime change.
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You seem to be unaware of the difference between a change of leadership and a change of regime.
Kennedys death did not bring about regime change.
Killing Castro probably wouldn't have brought about regime change either.
He cites as evidence for the involvement of the British monarchy in the assassination that JFK's limo the Secret Service car was nicknamed "the Queen Mary."
Let's leave that one all by itself.
As I said, the assassination is just an event that many people use to go after whatever demons or hobglobins they have swirling inside their heads. This person - an Irish catholic (I guess) - detests what Protestant England did to the Irish. Therefore "the Protestants" were behind the assassination.
It goes like this:
1. Protestants oppressed Catholics
2. JFK was Catholic
3. The Protestants killed JFK.
This is how children see the world.
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He cites as evidence for the involvement of the British monarchy in the assassination that JFK's limo was nicknamed "the Queen Mary."
Let's leave that one all by itself.
As I said, the assassination is just an event that many people use to go after whatever demons or hobglobins they have swirling inside their heads. This person - an Irish catholic (I guess) - detests what Protestant England did to the Irish. Therefore "the Protestants" were behind the assassination.
It goes like this:
1. Protestants oppressed Catholics
2. JFK was Catholic
3. The Protestants killed JFK.
This is how children see the world.
It's not about what I think it's about common sence, and being practical, the protestants did not want to lose power in America, and this is the root of JFK's assasination, if you can't see it, then this is through your lack of education internationalist political and social awareness, or because you were brainwashed to be unable to think outside of the box. I said it before and will say it again wise up kid.
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It's not about what I think it's about common sence, and being practical, the protestants did not want to lose power in America, and this is the root of JFK's assasination, if you can't see it, then this is through your lack of education internationalist political and social awareness, or because you were brainwashed to be unable to think outside of the box. I said it before and will say it again wise up kid.
"the protestants did not want to lose power in America, and this is the root of JFK's assasination,"
Thank you Mr O'Brian..... Nobody could surpass your display of "logic" to illuminate your reasoning. However, only someone who has shared your bong would agree with you.
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It's not about what I think it's about common sence, and being practical, the protestants did not want to lose power in America, and this is the root of JFK's assasination, if you can't see it, then this is through your lack of education internationalist political and social awareness, or because you were brainwashed to be unable to think outside of the box. I said it before and will say it again wise up kid.
I'm just not wise enough to realize that the naming of the President's limo Secret Service car the "Queen Mary" is evidence of the Anglo-American Protestant plot to kill JFK.
Just when I thought I had read every goofy conspiracy idea.....
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https://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/ALL6YEBJMEKYGMCntnSCvg.aspx
America was not ready for him.
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"the protestants did not want to lose power in America, and this is the root of JFK's assasination,"
Thank you Mr O'Brian..... Nobody could surpass your display of "logic" to illuminate your reasoning. However, only someone who has shared your bong would agree with you.
Say the bong smoker who fabricated an entire narrative about a "hoax" assassination.
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"the protestants did not want to lose power in America, and this is the root of JFK's assasination,"
Thank you Mr O'Brian..... Nobody could surpass your display of "logic" to illuminate your reasoning. However, only someone who has shared your bong would agree with you.
What side of the fence are you on at all https://www.houseofnames.com/cakebread-family-crest I think I will transfer you to the W.A.S.P =Lner thread with such a surname, you might fit in better there. :o Mr Cakeruddybread ;D well I'll be a hounddog
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;D Mad as a brush but sharp as a whip and honest as they come. I tell it how it is/was if you can't grasp the truth then you need that brain examined mine is AOK
As honest as they come? Is that your real name?
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As honest as they come? Is that your real name?
No but this fits into the sharp as a whip section of the statement, as it protects me from sillies like you who either refuse to believe that LHO was innocent or worse again you know he was not guilty but for some strange nutbag reason you continue the lie to the world
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No but this fits into the sharp as a whip section of the statement, as it protects me from sillies like you who either refuse to believe that LHO was innocent or worse again you know he was not guilty but for some strange nutbag reason you continue the lie to the world
He can't help it. He's always been smitten with the Queen.
Someone who says the Royal Family was involved should be a bit reluctant to call others use the term nutbags.
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He can't help it. He's always been smitten with the Queen.
Someone who says the Royal Family was involved should be a bit reluctant to call others nutbags.
The Royal Rulers of Nothing in Particular have always been too busy doing absolutely nothing. Maybe she waved at him in that weird robotic manner of hers. I reckon the killer-As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' in the hilarious Mars Attacks! might have been modelled after her.
They're practically inbred FFS, at least according to way they've been satirized on Spitting Image.
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The Royal Twits have always been too busy doing nothing. Maybe she waved at him in that weird robotic manner of hers. I reckon the killer 'broad' in the hilarious Mars Attacks! might have been modelled after her.
They're practically inbred FFS, at least according to way they've been satirized on The Spitting Image.
Yeah, I can see Prince Charles acting wacko.
Umbrella man, anyone?
(http://i66.tinypic.com/9gakb6.jpg)
So maybe Mr. Sillyman, er, Mr. OBrian is on to something.
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Interesting that a number of CTers here fight with each other constantly
Given the large number of contradictory conspiracies still oozing out of the CTroll-farms, it's no wonder these characters can't boil this all down to one plausible, coherent, counter-narrative. Or narrow down the 48 (or so) shooters claimed in conspiracy-authored books.
Bonged indeed.
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Interesting that a number of CTers here fight with each other constantly
Not particularly interesting. You guys rely on faith rather than evidence, march in lock-step, and never deviate from your holy book. Since when is it a virtue to jump off the cliff with the other lemmings?
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I can agree with LNs that Oswald can get to the 2nd floor lunchroom in 75 seconds post shots.
I have difficulity gettiing Oswald past Dorothy Garner on the 4th floor however. I tried to work it out that maybe Mrs Garners statement of following Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles "almost immediately" and "right behind" them, when A&S left the 4th floor office by approx 10 sec posts shots, was a misperception of an actual 45 seconds delay, thus allowing Oswald to have the required 50 sec post shot to reach 4th floor staircase. Its possible, but its seems to me somewhat less probable than just a 15 second pause for Garner, which she must have done, if she didn't actually see A&S as she related to Barry Ernest, author of "The Girl on the Stairs".Garner heard noise on the staircase which she attributes must be from A&S. That leaves really only 2 possibilities:
A. Garner did in fact exit the 4th floor office within 15 seconds after Adams and Styles did, and thus was able to still hear them on the staircase. That means Garner exited office 25 sec post shots,
B. Garner exited 53 seconds post shots, or 43 seconds after Adams and Styles did, thus allowing enough time for Oswald or other shooter at SE 6th floor window to get to the 4th floor staircase by 50 sec post shot, and 3 second more required to go half way down that stair and not be in LOS of Garner.
Which one is the more probable, in relation to Garners statement, imo, its A. But its not a certainty, because people can have different perceptions of time, during stressful situations, so I cannot entirely rule out Garner had a time lapse experience longer than what she actually stated.
Ive got the problem with Arnold Rowlands sighting of gunman at SW window at 12:15 time stamp from the TSBD roof clock which Rowland was able to see, conflicting with Carolyn Arnolds in an interview in 1978 with Anthony Summers: She went into the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15, and saw Oswald there, eating his lunch.
Ive considered there could be a time discrepency of +/- 3 minutes, but since there was a clock in the 2nd floor lunchroom, it seems to me that its likely that Carolyn Arnold would have seen the time easily just glancing at it. IF that clock was 2:13, or 2:18, would not Arnold notice and have stated either "It was slightly before 12:15, or "it was little after 12:15", instead of "It was 12:15"?
Was the clock in the 2nd floor lunchroom out of sync with the TSBD roof clock. Possibly, but would not the supervisor Roy Truly and the 2nd floor office supervisor, Mrs Reid prefer to have their clocks in sync with their very own "official time" roof clock that rest of Dealey Plaza is using to sync their clocks?
discarding the clock on the wall, and an early 12:13 meeting, then the only other viable possibility (or Carolyn Arnold totally confused) is a 12:18 meeting, which raises other problems:
A. Oswald holds an MC rifle, w/long wooden stock,scope barely visible even from 10 ft away, as seen in BYP, in such a way to make it appear to Arnold Rowland to be 30.06 hunting rilfe with a distinctly large scope and a short wooden stock, ( rifle Rowland was familiar with.) Does the MC rifle look anywhere near enough similar to a 30.06 hunting rifle, to be mistaken for one by someone who is familiar with such rifle? And could a person standing over 100 yards away misperceive the MC scope as a large scope, given the way the shooter was describe holding the rifle, with the scope on opposite side of the wooden stock in relation to Rowlands line of sight?
B. Oswald retreated from the SW window, probably due to presence of Bonnie Ray Williams at the SE 6th floor window. (this i can agree is plausible)
C. Oswald left the 6th floor, dropped his rifle in some boxes along that west aisle, and then he went down 4 floors to eat his lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom. This i have to wonder, if it makes any sense, because, he has no idea when the JFK motorcade will arrive, and he has no idea if BRW leaves the 6th floor. The more logical move, would be, just go sit on the 7th floor staircase and wait and listen, to see if BRW is going to leave the 6th floor.
D. Oswald must return to the 6th floor and not before 12:25, unless Arnold Rowland is mistaken on his timeing about the black man not gone from window until after 12:25. Why does Oswald wait this late to return, and what reason to have altered his original plan to shoot from the SW window, which afforded him a much shorter distance to the staircase and retreating down stairs? Why make his original plan much more difficult, not only adding more travel time, but also making his SN cramped and more difficult position to have to shoot from?
Finally, I have yet to resolve the Mrs Reid encounter with Oswald at the supposed stop watch time by Belin of 2 minutes post shots.
If Mrs Reid saw Oswald entering the rear office door of 2nd floor office at 2 min post shots, and Oswald walked slowly as she suggests, Oswald would not have exited the front office door until 2 min 20 sec.
Since Oswald was only in a T shirt as Reid described,, Oswald would have had to return to the lunchroom using the 80 ft hallway and about 15 more ft into lunchroom to get his brown shirt, and also get his jacket from somewhere. That would have Oswald not exiting lunchroom until approx. 2 min 50 sec. How could Oswald have gotten out the building then? the rear door is being watched from 1 min post shots, via the Adams encounter with plainclothes officer approx. 65 sec. The front door is guarded as early as 2 min 30 sec by DPD officer Barnett. A reporter, Peirce Allman, goes into TSBD before Barnett is guarding entrance, runs into Oswald, as early as 2 min 30 sec.
Barring that Peirce Allman may have met someone else instead, Oswald still cannot get to the front lobby entrance sooner than 3 minutes post shots, so could not have gotten past Barnnett. Nor could he go out the read door, unless the plainsclothes officers had moved since 65 sec post shot encounter with V.Adams and S.Styles exiting rear door.
There is a West side rollup door possibly unguarded at 3 minutes 20 seconds perhaps, but Idk for certain about this.
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Not particularly interesting. You guys rely on faith rather than evidence, march in lock-step, and never deviate from your holy book. Since when is it a virtue to jump off the cliff with the other lemmings?
Bravo!..... You're starting to show that you've learned a wee bit of what I've taught you. ;D
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Bravo!..... You're starting to show that you've learned a wee bit of what I've taught you. ;D
Saint Waldo the Fabricator
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Not particularly interesting. You guys rely on faith rather than evidence, march in lock-step, and never deviate from your holy book. Since when is it a virtue to jump off the cliff with the other lemmings?
'virtue'
Saint John the Virtuous. Apparently.
And yet you're one of the characters misrepresenting the information by nitpicking, twisting, and splitting hairs to an alarmingly deranged, ultimately smothering* standard of proof.
And for the sake of myself and fellow lemmings everywhere, I hope that you and your fellow Reptilians don't develop a taste for lemming soup anytime soon.
*Iacoletti+Caprio+Weidmann Inc.
>>>The Smothers Brothers
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What is your best Oswald was involved, theory?
Btw ... that's ... INVOLVED.
Not that he was duped and Not that he was really there to protect the President.
INVOLVED.
Let the sound of crickets begin.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337461/m1/1/?q=lee%20harvey%20oswald%20curtain%20rods
Dan, you are obviously a closet LNer but the half way point is for you to accept that this was a conspiracy and LHO was NOT a lone nut. Once you accept this was a conspiracy, which most of the world believes, then speculate away. But don't expect ANY of the LNers to buy into it because they are 100% committed to the WC LN hypothesis which has been proven flawed and untenable. The LNer position is fringe and they have to stick to it come hell or high water. Either there was a conspiracy or there wasn't. So what is YOUR half way point?
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Dan, you are obviously a closet LNer but the half way point is for you to accept that this was a conspiracy and LHO was NOT a lone nut. Once you accept this was a conspiracy, which most of the world believes, then speculate away. But don't expect ANY of the LNers to buy into it because they are 100% committed to the WC LN hypothesis which has been proven flawed and untenable. The LNer position is fringe and they have to stick to it come hell or high water. Either there was a conspiracy or there wasn't. So what is YOUR half way point?
Hey, Jack. You're absolutely correct, I'm as close to being an LN as a person can be, because I can't believe they can be wrong about - EVERYTHING and many CT's here, as you well know, believe exactly that. To me, the truth lies in the middle and my half way point is - he was involved. If there's any patsy to him, it's, he had to take the blame for it all. and if that happened, there had to be a damn good reason to
make it appear as such.
Do you know how many things would fit in perfectly if he was involved with a team of two to three people? He had his own escape route and his job was to draw the police to him which didn't happen because of that inadvertent direction from Curry to search the railroad yard first. The second group was escaping in a station wagon and I still maintain that ALL assassins were captured that day. Oswald on his own and that station wagon captured at Redbird airfield. That last capture mentioned took place within twenty minutes from the event and these - persons - as stated in the Radio Traffic Relays who were brought to the downtown jail were quickly identified as being domestic agents a/o pro or anti Castro agents and from
there on in, all roads had to lead back to Oswald acting alone. My opinion - yes - but whatever evidence
that I do have - scant as it is - does seem to fit. I'll list it again if you want.
Anyway, thanks for responding. Btw - you're right again, I never did think any LN would move towards the middle, if you will, but a CT could come to the same conclusion as I stated that the LN's can't be wrong
about everything. Oswald was no saint in my book.
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And yet you're one of the characters misrepresenting the information by nitpicking, twisting, and splitting hairs to an alarmingly deranged, ultimately smothering* standard of proof.
Wrongo, my dear Mr. Chapman. You and your brethren are twisting, distorting, rationalizing, speculating, and conjecturing a few bits of weak, circumstantial, and tainted evidence into what you keep claiming is a "mountain of solid evidence". Your standard of proof is ridiculously lax. You assume Oswald did it, therefore Oswald did it.
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Wrongo, my dear Mr. Chapman. You and your brethren are twisting, distorting, rationalizing, speculating, and conjecturing a few bits of weak, circumstantial, and tainted evidence into what you keep claiming is a "mountain of solid evidence". Your standard of proof is ridiculously lax. You assume Oswald did it, therefore Oswald did it.
Point out where I ever said 'a mountain of solid evidence'
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Point out where I ever said 'a mountain of solid evidence'
Don't you ever get tired of being you?
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Don't you ever get tired of being you?
I've never had that experience
Tell us what it feels like
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I've never had that experience
Tell us what it feels like
How in the world could I ever know what it is like being tired of being you?
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Don't you ever get tired of being you?
Has chronic trolliosis [incurable]
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I've never had that experience
Tell us what it feels like
In clueless Martin's case, maybe you should direct that question to Roger Collins.
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How in the world could I ever know what it is like being tired of being you?
Exactly, given that I've never experienced being tired of myself.
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Exactly, given that I've never experienced being tired of myself.
Wow, Bill, you must be a very patient person.