JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Benjamin Cole on June 07, 2026, 03:44:10 AM
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Recently I have been chided for having what I term "reasonable doubts" about the LNT-SBT, especially in connection to Gov. JBC and his Stetson hat.
AI: "Is the Warren Commission position on the possibility of Governor Connally holding onto his hat after being shot through the wrist plausible?"
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The Warren Commission's position on Governor Connally holding his hat after his wrist was shot is widely debated. However, forensic experts, physicians, and critics argue it is highly improbable for him to retain a firm grip, though holding onto the hat by reflex or trapping it as his arm fell is plausibly possible.
The Core Arguments The Injury: Governor Connally sustained a severely comminuted (shattered) fracture to his right radius bone, completely severing the bone and destroying the wrist's structural integrity. Medics noted that the median nerve was also damaged, leading to an instant loss of motor control and strength in his right hand.
The Physics: Holding a rigid cowboy hat (Stetson) firmly in the air requires grip strength and the use of the wrist joint. Once shattered, the hand would typically go limp, causing the hat to fall to the floor of the limousine instantly.
8)The Warren Commission's Stance: The Commission argued that because the bullet was losing velocity as it passed through President Kennedy, Connally’s chest, and his wrist, it retained enough kinetic energy to break the bone, but it did not tear the hand apart. They theorized Connally reflexively maintained the hat in his grasp or that the hat was simply trapped in his hand or lap as he was struck.
Connally's Rebuttal: Governor John Connally himself fundamentally rejected the Warren Commission’s Single Bullet Theory. He testified that he was hit by a separate bullet from President Kennedy and frequently maintained that he immediately dropped his hat after being shot in the wrist, which contradicts the WC's timeline of him holding it later in the Zapruder film.
The most prominent expert who explicitly used the term "highly improbable" regarding the single-bullet theory and its medical trajectory is Dr. Cyril Wecht. He was a highly renowned forensic pathologist, attorney, and former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.
Dr. Cyril Wecht's Medical Critique: Dr. Wecht extensively studied the medical evidence and testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA). He vehemently argued against the Warren Commission's timeline using Zapruder film frame 230.
His expert critique regarding the hat specifically centers on the following points:
The Neurological Impossibility: Dr. Wecht noted that the bullet shattered the distal end of Connally's right radius bone (wrist) and partially severed his radial nerve.
Voluntary vs. Involuntary Control: He argued that with a collapsed lung from the chest wound and a shredded wrist nerve, it is medically "incongruous" for Connally to maintain voluntary grip strength to hold up a heavy Stetson cowboy hat for 1.5 seconds after the alleged impact.
The "Highly Improbable" Quote: When summarized during investigative panels and televised CBS/CNN historical reviews, Dr. Wecht noted that while he hesitates to say anything is 100 percent impossible in forensics, the Warren Commission's exact timeline for these combined injuries and movements is "highly improbable".
Other Aligning Medical Voices
While Dr. Wecht is the specific source of that phrasing, other medical professionals expressed similar deep skepticism:
The Parkland Hospital Surgeons: Doctors like Dr. Charles Gregory (who operated on Connally’s wrist) noted that the neurovascular and bone destruction from a high-velocity military round would cause immediate, catastrophic loss of function in the hand.
Independent Forensic Analysts: Over decades, secondary medical critics—such as those featured in Jim Garrison's investigative files and various independent forensic studies—concluded that the hand would immediately go limp, meaning the hat could only remain in the hand if it was involuntarily trapped or wedged against his lap rather than actively held.
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I have reasonable doubts on the ability of Gov. JBC to hold onto his Stetson hat, after being shot through the wrist. If we want to toss out Cyril Wecht as a dedicated CT'er, then we have Dr. Charles Gregory, who actually operated on JBC's wrist.
Gov. JBC is indisputably seen at Z-272 holding onto his Stetson hat. Even the WC assents to that.
Yet, the WC contends Gov. JBC was already shot through the wrist at that point...well, that is highly improbable.
This is one reason I doubt the LNT-SBT narratives.
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The SBT is entirely based on CE 399 being legit.
If you want reasonable doubt all you need to do is to look more closely at the chain of custody for that bullet and the witness statements by Tomlinson, Wright and Odum.
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MW-
Largely, I concur. Even back in the 1960s, every hospital knew it mandated to report all bullet wounds and retain all evidence for police.
JBC says a bullet fell out his left leg and clicked on the ground, while he was in surgery. We know that a slug made a small round hole upon entering JBC's pant leg, which indicates substantial velocity. Why was not that leg-slug retained in an envelope, inside the surgery room, per well-understood hospital procedures, especially in such a high-profile case?
Yet what is purported to be CE-399 is purported to have been found outside the surgery room in Parkland, near some elevators, underneath a gurney, by Tomlinson, who gave the slug OP Wright, a former police chief, who said he received a pointy-head slug from Tomlinson. Not like CE-399.
The narrative told by Paul Landis may be worth reviewing.
I have reasonable doubts about the WC CE-399 narrative also.
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Recently I have been chided for having what I term "reasonable doubts" about the LNT-SBT, especially in connection to Gov. JBC and his Stetson hat.
AI: "Is the Warren Commission position on the possibility of Governor Connally holding onto his hat after being shot through the wrist plausible?"
---
The Warren Commission's position on Governor Connally holding his hat after his wrist was shot is widely debated. However, forensic experts, physicians, and critics argue it is highly improbable for him to retain a firm grip, though holding onto the hat by reflex or trapping it as his arm fell is plausibly possible.
The Core Arguments The Injury: Governor Connally sustained a severely comminuted (shattered) fracture to his right radius bone, completely severing the bone and destroying the wrist's structural integrity. Medics noted that the median nerve was also damaged, leading to an instant loss of motor control and strength in his right hand.
The Physics: Holding a rigid cowboy hat (Stetson) firmly in the air requires grip strength and the use of the wrist joint. Once shattered, the hand would typically go limp, causing the hat to fall to the floor of the limousine instantly.
8)The Warren Commission's Stance: The Commission argued that because the bullet was losing velocity as it passed through President Kennedy, Connally’s chest, and his wrist, it retained enough kinetic energy to break the bone, but it did not tear the hand apart. They theorized Connally reflexively maintained the hat in his grasp or that the hat was simply trapped in his hand or lap as he was struck.
Connally's Rebuttal: Governor John Connally himself fundamentally rejected the Warren Commission’s Single Bullet Theory. He testified that he was hit by a separate bullet from President Kennedy and frequently maintained that he immediately dropped his hat after being shot in the wrist, which contradicts the WC's timeline of him holding it later in the Zapruder film.
The most prominent expert who explicitly used the term "highly improbable" regarding the single-bullet theory and its medical trajectory is Dr. Cyril Wecht. He was a highly renowned forensic pathologist, attorney, and former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.
Dr. Cyril Wecht's Medical Critique: Dr. Wecht extensively studied the medical evidence and testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA). He vehemently argued against the Warren Commission's timeline using Zapruder film frame 230.
His expert critique regarding the hat specifically centers on the following points:
The Neurological Impossibility: Dr. Wecht noted that the bullet shattered the distal end of Connally's right radius bone (wrist) and partially severed his radial nerve.
Voluntary vs. Involuntary Control: He argued that with a collapsed lung from the chest wound and a shredded wrist nerve, it is medically "incongruous" for Connally to maintain voluntary grip strength to hold up a heavy Stetson cowboy hat for 1.5 seconds after the alleged impact.
The "Highly Improbable" Quote: When summarized during investigative panels and televised CBS/CNN historical reviews, Dr. Wecht noted that while he hesitates to say anything is 100 percent impossible in forensics, the Warren Commission's exact timeline for these combined injuries and movements is "highly improbable".
Other Aligning Medical Voices
While Dr. Wecht is the specific source of that phrasing, other medical professionals expressed similar deep skepticism:
The Parkland Hospital Surgeons: Doctors like Dr. Charles Gregory (who operated on Connally’s wrist) noted that the neurovascular and bone destruction from a high-velocity military round would cause immediate, catastrophic loss of function in the hand.
Independent Forensic Analysts: Over decades, secondary medical critics—such as those featured in Jim Garrison's investigative files and various independent forensic studies—concluded that the hand would immediately go limp, meaning the hat could only remain in the hand if it was involuntarily trapped or wedged against his lap rather than actively held.
---30---
I have reasonable doubts on the ability of Gov. JBC to hold onto his Stetson hat, after being shot through the wrist. If we want to toss out Cyril Wecht as a dedicated CT'er, then we have Dr. Charles Gregory, who actually operated on JBC's wrist.
Gov. JBC is indisputably seen at Z-272 holding onto his Stetson hat. Even the WC assents to that.
Yet, the WC contends Gov. JBC was already shot through the wrist at that point...well, that is highly improbable.
This is one reason I doubt the LNT-SBT narratives.
Are you thinking the doctors were less than truthful about the severity of the damage to the wrist?
What is the point being made here?
What does it matter what caused the injury to JBC’s wrist? He still held onto his hat with the known injury.
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JN-
No, in my layman's view all the doctors in Parkland and Bethesda were honest and scrupulous, and the x-rays of Gov. JBC's wrist genuine.
I agree with Parkland's Dr Gregory, JBC's wrist surgeon, that it is highly improbable that JBC was holding onto his hat, after being shot through the wrist.
Ergo...Gov JBC had not yet been shot through the wrist, at Z-272.
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BC, are you doubting that JBC had been shot at all at Z-272? Or are you only doubting the wrist wound? Do you have a reasonable alternate theory as to when and how JBC received the wrist wound?
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GC--
Thanks for your question, and it is a fascinating one.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
In my layman's review of the Z-film, Gov. JBC is pushed forward ~Z-295. That's my best guess of when JBC is shot.
There is an additional curiosity that the slug that slammed JBC's wrist entered through the dorsal side, or about where you would normally wear a wristwatch face. That is what Dr. Gregory said.
The problem is, that is nearly anatomically impossible, if the bullet first passed through JBC chest. Try touching the face of a wristwatch to your chest.
I don't know when JBC received his wrist wound, or from where it came.
My contention is JBC was struck from behind ~Z-295.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrwnX9wh/Screen-Shot-2569-06-07-at-18-01-55.png)
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I assumed that when you kept saying "reasonable doubt," you were simply using it in the legal sense of "as a juror, I would not be convinced of the LN narrative beyond a reasonable doubt." There is no precise legal definition, but it certainly doesn't mean "I think he's innocent." Nor does it really mean "I think my doubts are reasonable." It's "more than a scintella" of doubt but "how much more" has defied precise definition. The Arizona jury instructions require the jury to be "firmly convinced" of guilt. Of course, in every JFKA discussions there are two questions: (1) firmly convinced Oswald was guilty and (2) firmly convinced he acted alone.
FWIW, John Orr believes JBC's wrist wound was caused by a fragment from the head shot. I have also seen this suggested as an explanation for the throat wound (meaning the back wound would have been the shallow one described by the autopsy doctors).
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GC--
Thanks for your question, and it is a fascinating one.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
In my layman's review of the Z-film, Gov. JBC is pushed forward ~Z-295. That's my best guess of when JBC is shot.
If that's the best you can do, this hobby doesn't suit you. Maybe you should consider stamp collecting instead.
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I might also add that until reading Robert Caro's LBJ books I had no idea how close LBJ and JBC were or how far back their relationship went. Very close and very far back. To the extent JBC waffled and gave "well, maybe" lip service to the SBT in later interviews, this could be explained by tossing LBJ a bone. (Of course, since LBJ himself doubted the SBT, that wouldn't be much of a bone. I guess it would be like tossing the "WC party line" a bone.)
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I might also add that until reading Robert Caro's LBJ books I had no idea how close LBJ and JBC were or how far back their relationship went. Very close and very far back. To the extent JBC waffled and gave "well, maybe" lip service to the SBT in later interviews, this could be explained by tossing LBJ a bone. (Of course, since LBJ himself doubted the SBT, that wouldn't be much of a bone. I guess it would be like tossing the "WC party line" a bone.)
Just a guess but since CTs do mostly guessing, I think I'm entitled to one once in a while. I doubt LBJ ever read the WCR. He got his information from Hoover who was equally clueless about the facts. Whatever information was being sent up the ladder to him was apparently getting garbled in translation.
JBC disputed the SBT for one simple reason. He had been led to believe JFK was hit by the first shot and he knew he had been hit by the second. I don't know where he got that idea but apparently that's what he had been led to believe. Later in life when he was asked about the possibility of the SBT if JFK had been hit by the second shot, he said that might be possible. It seems to me it is not only possible, it is a certainty that if they were both hit by the second shot, the SBT is a fact.
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Just in case anyone missed it on DVP's "JFK Videos" thread, this is JBC's first interview, conducted in June 1964. He extensively discusses the shooting and the WC's efforts to convince him of the SBT. (The WR would not be issued for months, and the interview proceeds as though the SBT was not yet final.) JBC is adamant and, from a lawyer's perspective, a fantastic witness. In later years, he must have been under great pressure to toe the line, but he is adamant here.
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JN-
No, in my layman's view all the doctors in Parkland and Bethesda were honest and scrupulous, and the x-rays of Gov. JBC's wrist genuine.
I agree with Parkland's Dr Gregory, JBC's wrist surgeon, that it is highly improbable that JBC was holding onto his hat, after being shot through the wrist.
Ergo...Gov JBC had not yet been shot through the wrist, at Z-272.
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I agree with Parkland's Dr Gregory, JBC's wrist surgeon, that it is highly improbable that JBC was holding onto his hat, after being shot through the wrist.
I have never read that Dr Gregory ever made that statement. At least not to the WC.
Dr Gregory's priority was to repair the wrist and would have no knowledge of JBC holding his hat.
When Dr Gregory was asked if the bullet that struck JBC’s arm was a direct shot he stated no.
Mr. DULLES - Could I ask just one question? If a bullet had merely struck the Governor's arm without previously having struck anything else, is it conceivable that impediment of the bone that it hit there would be consistent with merely a flesh wound on the thigh? Do you follow me?
Dr. GREGORY - Yes; I follow you. I would doubt it on the basis of the kind of wound that the Governor has. Now the kind of wound in the Governor's right forearm is the kind that indicates there was not an excessive amount of energy expended there, which means either that the missile producing it had dissipated much of its energy, either that or there was an impediment to it someplace else along the way.
It is simply that there was not enough energy loss there, and one would expect a soft tissue injury beyond that point to be of considerably greater magnitude.
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Dr Gregory’s gives a detailed description of the wound and what could have caused it.
Dr. GREGORY - In examining this bullet, I find a small flake has been either knocked off or removed from the rounded end of the missile.
(At this point Representative Boggs entered the room.)
I was told that this was removed for the purpose of analysis. The only other deformity which I find is at the base of the missile at the point where it Joined the cartridge carrying the powder, I presume, and this is somewhat flattened and deflected, distorted. There is some irregularity of the darker metal within which I presume to represent lead.
The only way that this missile could have produced this wound in my view, was to have entered the wrist backward. Now, this is not inconsistent with one of the characteristics known for missiles which is to tumble. All missiles in flight have two motions normally, a linear motion from the muzzle of the gun to the target, a second motion which is a spinning motion having to do with maintaining the integrity of the intial linear direction, but if they strike an object they may be caused to turn in their path and tumble end over, and if they do, they tend to produce a greater amount of destruction within the strike time or the target, and they could possibly, if tumbling in air upon emergence, tumble into another target backward. That is the only possible explanation I could offer to correlate this missile with this particular wound.
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Mr. SPECTER - Is the back of that bullet characteristic of an irregular missile so as to cause the wound in the wrist?
Dr. GREGORY - I would say that the back of this being fiat and having sharp edges is irregular, and would possibly tend to tear tissues more than does an inclined plane such as this.
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My contention is JBC was struck from behind ~Z-295.
Your contention is FUBAR.
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JN--
I think you are correct on this matter.
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JN:
I was thinking of ---
AI: Dr. John Nichols of the University of Kansas School of Medicine, shared this skepticism. Dr. Nichols conducted his own ballistic and biological simulations by shooting through human bones and wrists to test the physics of the single-bullet theory. He pointed out that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of the radial nerve should have caused the governor to immediately lose his grip on his white Stetson hat.
(Never rely on memory, and I mixed up Gregory and Nichols. Dr. Gregory was certain the slug entered Gov. JBC's wrist from the dorsal (wristwatch) side. That presents an anatomical curiosity, as you can see for yourself, by wearing a wristwatch and trying to press the face of the watch against your chest).
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How does shooting through the wrist bones of a deceased human being prove JBC would have dropped his hat when he was struck in the wrist?
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JC:
I suspect there was a dearth of live volunteers for such an experiment.
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GC--
Thanks for your question, and it is a fascinating one.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
In my layman's review of the Z-film, Gov. JBC is pushed forward ~Z-295. That's my best guess of when JBC is shot.
There is an additional curiosity that the slug that slammed JBC's wrist entered through the dorsal side, or about where you would normally wear a wristwatch face. That is what Dr. Gregory said.
The problem is, that is nearly anatomically impossible, if the bullet first passed through JBC chest. Try touching the face of a wristwatch to your chest.
I don't know when JBC received his wrist wound, or from where it came.
My contention is JBC was struck from behind ~Z-295.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrwnX9wh/Screen-Shot-2569-06-07-at-18-01-55.png)
My contention is JBC was struck from behind ~Z-295.
At Z295 JBC is lying back in Nellie's lap.
Perhaps I'm missing something but would it be possible for you to explain, in a sensible way, how he could be shot in the back from the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD building while lying in Nellie's lap.
Or is it your contention that Nellie shot him? I don't really follow what you post so I'm not sure.
As for JBC's wrist injury...note that after he begins thrashing about in the limo (starting around z225), when his wrist emerges from behind the limo door it is bent at a really unnatural looking 90 degrees.
Also note that in z222 we can see the white of his shirt cuff just above the door but this disappears in z223 (because his wrist has been hit by a bullet). He then commences to thrashing around.
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DO-
I don't think JBC is laying down in Nellie's lap at Z-295.
For example, this is Z-298:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzwxVnw5/Screen-Shot-2569-06-09-at-16-05-30.png)
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z298.jpg
And Z-309
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG3LKwLZ/Screen-Shot-2569-06-09-at-16-07-10.png)
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z309.jpg
Even at Z-320 JBC is not yet down into Nellie's lap.
That's my layman's take on what I see in the Z-film.
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Recently I have been chided for having what I term "reasonable doubts" about the LNT-SBT, especially in connection to Gov. JBC and his Stetson hat.
AI: "Is the Warren Commission position on the possibility of Governor Connally holding onto his hat after being shot through the wrist plausible?"
---
The Warren Commission's position on Governor Connally holding his hat after his wrist was shot is widely debated. However, forensic experts, physicians, and critics argue it is highly improbable for him to retain a firm grip, though holding onto the hat by reflex or trapping it as his arm fell is plausibly possible.
The Core Arguments The Injury: Governor Connally sustained a severely comminuted (shattered) fracture to his right radius bone, completely severing the bone and destroying the wrist's structural integrity. Medics noted that the median nerve was also damaged, leading to an instant loss of motor control and strength in his right hand.
The Physics: Holding a rigid cowboy hat (Stetson) firmly in the air requires grip strength and the use of the wrist joint. Once shattered, the hand would typically go limp, causing the hat to fall to the floor of the limousine instantly.
8)The Warren Commission's Stance: The Commission argued that because the bullet was losing velocity as it passed through President Kennedy, Connally’s chest, and his wrist, it retained enough kinetic energy to break the bone, but it did not tear the hand apart. They theorized Connally reflexively maintained the hat in his grasp or that the hat was simply trapped in his hand or lap as he was struck.
Connally's Rebuttal: Governor John Connally himself fundamentally rejected the Warren Commission’s Single Bullet Theory. He testified that he was hit by a separate bullet from President Kennedy and frequently maintained that he immediately dropped his hat after being shot in the wrist, which contradicts the WC's timeline of him holding it later in the Zapruder film.
The most prominent expert who explicitly used the term "highly improbable" regarding the single-bullet theory and its medical trajectory is Dr. Cyril Wecht. He was a highly renowned forensic pathologist, attorney, and former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.
Dr. Cyril Wecht's Medical Critique: Dr. Wecht extensively studied the medical evidence and testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA). He vehemently argued against the Warren Commission's timeline using Zapruder film frame 230.
His expert critique regarding the hat specifically centers on the following points:
The Neurological Impossibility: Dr. Wecht noted that the bullet shattered the distal end of Connally's right radius bone (wrist) and partially severed his radial nerve.
Voluntary vs. Involuntary Control: He argued that with a collapsed lung from the chest wound and a shredded wrist nerve, it is medically "incongruous" for Connally to maintain voluntary grip strength to hold up a heavy Stetson cowboy hat for 1.5 seconds after the alleged impact.
The "Highly Improbable" Quote: When summarized during investigative panels and televised CBS/CNN historical reviews, Dr. Wecht noted that while he hesitates to say anything is 100 percent impossible in forensics, the Warren Commission's exact timeline for these combined injuries and movements is "highly improbable".
Other Aligning Medical Voices
While Dr. Wecht is the specific source of that phrasing, other medical professionals expressed similar deep skepticism:
The Parkland Hospital Surgeons: Doctors like Dr. Charles Gregory (who operated on Connally’s wrist) noted that the neurovascular and bone destruction from a high-velocity military round would cause immediate, catastrophic loss of function in the hand.
Independent Forensic Analysts: Over decades, secondary medical critics—such as those featured in Jim Garrison's investigative files and various independent forensic studies—concluded that the hand would immediately go limp, meaning the hat could only remain in the hand if it was involuntarily trapped or wedged against his lap rather than actively held.
---30---
I have reasonable doubts on the ability of Gov. JBC to hold onto his Stetson hat, after being shot through the wrist. If we want to toss out Cyril Wecht as a dedicated CT'er, then we have Dr. Charles Gregory, who actually operated on JBC's wrist.
Gov. JBC is indisputably seen at Z-272 holding onto his Stetson hat. Even the WC assents to that.
Yet, the WC contends Gov. JBC was already shot through the wrist at that point...well, that is highly improbable.
This is one reason I doubt the LNT-SBT narratives.
Very good stuff, Ben.
Connally's wrist may well have been hit by the shot to which the Zapruder film shows reactions starting at around Z293. Roy Kellerman, who is sitting next to Greer, is seen to "duck" his head beginning at Z293. His head tips noticeably forward, in an apparent ducking motion. Jean Hill begins to snap her head to the right at around Z295. She is standing to the left of the limousine, across the street from Zapruder. By Z298 we can see she has turned her head and is looking to the rear of the limousine. William Greer, the limousine driver, snaps his head to the rear beginning at Z301. This shot was probably fired at right around Z285.
It is rather odd that anyone would chide you for doubting the SBT, given that we now know that three of the seven members of the WC didn't buy it, and that the WC's best wound ballistics expert, Dr. Joseph Dolce, said the SBT was preposterous.
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Very good stuff, Ben.
Connally's wrist may well have been hit by the shot to which the Zapruder film shows reactions starting at around Z293.
So is it your belief that JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at Z226 in anticipation of it being struck by a bullet 3.6 seconds later?
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It is rather odd that anyone would chide you for doubting the SBT, given that we now know that three of the seven members of the WC didn't buy it, and that the WC's best wound ballistics expert, Dr. Joseph Dolce, said the SBT was preposterous.
The people who claim the SBT is preposterous rarely want to tell us why it is preposterous. When they attempt to do that, their arguments get shot down like clay pigeons.
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So is it your belief that JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at Z226 in anticipation of it being struck by a bullet 3.6 seconds later?
This is beyond silly.
The people who claim the SBT is preposterous rarely want to tell us why it is preposterous.
You have no clue what you're talking about. If you would ever dare yourself to read just some of the scholarly refutations of the SBT, you would quickly discover that they have explained in great detail why the theory is preposterous.
When they attempt to do that, their arguments get shot down like clay pigeons.
Perhaps in your dreams. BTW, which SBT do you accept? The one that has the bullet entering at C7 or the one that has the bullet entering at T1? The one that has the bullet traveling at a downward angle or the one that has the bullet traveling at a slightly upward angle? The one that has the bullet hitting JFK above the alleged exit point or the one that has the bullet hitting JFK slightly below the exit point? The one that has Connally rotated to the right by 10-15 degrees or the one that has him rotated to the right by 20-30 degrees? The one that has the magic bullet as the first shot or the one that has it as the second shot? The one that has the bullet hitting JFK at Z188-190, or the one that has the bullet hitting JFK at Z221, or the one that has the bullet hitting JFK at Z224? The one that says JFK shows no signs of reacting to the wound until Z226, or the one that says he is already reacting in Z225, or the one that says he begins to react at Z200?
Just for once, do a modicum of balanced research and educate yourself:
The Shifting Sands of the Single-Bullet Theory
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MOKXTpq1hC5UHrF-JanDjQvzk2q0HvRF/view
JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing
Ten Reasons I Reject the Single-Bullet Theory
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-7AW56BXCumXFsOwyN6lE0WTBltOzeYI/view
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I’m in agreement with the LNs that the coincidence of the in sync movements of JFK and JC from Z224-Z230 are due to one bullet going thru both men.
I’m just not on board with that bullet being CE 399.
I’m in agreement with LNs that there was probably just the one shooter in the TSBD 6th floor who fired 3 shots.
I’m just not on board that the rifle was the MC rifle found on the 6th floor because of Harold Norman’s 4 sec spacing for all 3 shots fired as per his boom click click demonstration. A bolt action rifle fired , then ejecting shells and then shells hitting the ground would be a more elaborate set of sounds such as
Boom, ( rifle firing ) clack clack ,(bolt operation) clink clink. ( sound of shells bouncing on the hard wooden plank/ plywood floor)
I’m not sure about JC’s wrist wound being caused by the Z224 shot. JC raising his right hand up clutching the hat could be just as well reaction to the bullet going ONLY thru his chest and into his thigh. The bullet might have missed his wrist depending where JC is holding his hat with his right hand at that moment.
What’s the probability of a fragment from the Z313 shot hitting JCs wrist while he was leaning back into Mrs C lap?
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This is beyond silly.
So silly you have no answer to the conundrum you have created by suggesting that JBC's sudden arm flip preceded his wrist being shot by 3.6 seconds. I've noticed that when illogical CTs such as yourself are confronted with the illogic of what they have proposed, their standard reply is to make a dismissive response such as "This is beyond silly" without ever addressing the point they are asked to explain. You have no logical response, so you resort to bluster.
You have no clue what you're talking about. If you would ever dare yourself to read just some of the scholarly refutations of the SBT, you would quickly discover that they have explained in great detail why the theory is preposterous.
"Scholarly refutations of the the SBT" are like unicorns. I've never actually seen one.
Perhaps in your dreams. BTW, which SBT do you accept? The one that has the bullet entering at C7 or the one that has the bullet entering at T1? The one that has the bullet traveling at a downward angle or the one that has the bullet traveling at a slightly upward angle? The one that has the bullet hitting JFK above the alleged exit point or the one that has the bullet hitting JFK slightly below the exit point? The one that has Connally rotated to the right by 10-15 degrees or the one that has him rotated to the right by 20-30 degrees? The one that has the magic bullet as the first shot or the one that has it as the second shot? The one that has the bullet hitting JFK at Z188-190, or the one that has the bullet hitting JFK at Z221, or the one that has the bullet hitting JFK at Z224? The one that says JFK shows no signs of reacting to the wound until Z226, or the one that says he is already reacting in Z225, or the one that says he begins to react at Z200?
I have no answer for questions based on false pretenses. The bullet entered JFK's upper back approximately two inches right of JFK's back. The location is shown in one of the leaked autopsy photos. The bullet exited JFK's throat at the level of the knot of his necktie. It tumbled upon exiting and struck JBC who was sitting in front of and slightly to the left of JFK. The bullet entered in the back near his right armpit making an elongated wound due to the tumble. The bullet exited below his right nipple and passed through his right wrist, depositing tiny lead fragments from the core which was only exposed at the base of the bullet.. The bullet went on to make a shallow penetration in JBC's thigh before working its way loose and was discovered at Parkland hospital and become CE399.
Just for once, do a modicum of balanced research and educate yourself:
The Shifting Sands of the Single-Bullet Theory
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MOKXTpq1hC5UHrF-JanDjQvzk2q0HvRF/view
JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing
Ten Reasons I Reject the Single-Bullet Theory
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-7AW56BXCumXFsOwyN6lE0WTBltOzeYI/view
These three articles are nothing more than a collection of stale old myths, misstatements of fact, and your amateur analysis of the medical evidence which is at odds with the conclusions of the FPP, which concurred with the SBT with the lone dissenter being Cyril Wecht. A classic example of garbage in, garbage out.
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I’m in agreement with the LNs that the coincidence of the in sync movements of JFK and JC from Z224-Z230 are due to one bullet going thru both men.
I’m just not on board with that bullet being CE 399.
I’m in agreement with LNs that there was probably just the one shooter in the TSBD 6th floor who fired 3 shots.
I’m just not on board that the rifle was the MC rifle found on the 6th floor because of Harold Norman’s 4 sec spacing for all 3 shots fired as per his boom click click demonstration. A bolt action rifle fired , then ejecting shells and then shells hitting the ground would be a more elaborate set of sounds such as
Boom, ( rifle firing ) clack clack ,(bolt operation) clink clink. ( sound of shells bouncing on the hard wooden plank/ plywood floor)
I’m not sure about JC’s wrist wound being caused by the Z224 shot. JC raising his right hand up clutching the hat could be just as well reaction to the bullet going ONLY thru his chest and into his thigh. The bullet might have missed his wrist depending where JC is holding his hat with his right hand at that moment.
What’s the probability of a fragment from the Z313 shot hitting JCs wrist while he was leaning back into Mrs C lap?
Slim and none.
I'll never understand the need to rewrite the conclusions of the WC when those conclusions make perfect sense.
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What’s the probability of a fragment from the Z313 shot hitting JCs wrist while he was leaning back into Mrs C lap?
That might explain the shot to the wrist but it doesn’t explain how the leg wound was caused.
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Am ZM--
The bullet hole in Gov. JBC's wrist bone (radius) is a biggie (see picture x-ray provided earlier).
I am a layman, but I doubt a shard from CE-399 could have done that.
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Recently I have been chided for having what I term "reasonable doubts" about the LNT-SBT, especially in connection to Gov. JBC and his Stetson hat.
[SNIP]
The Core Arguments The Injury: Governor Connally sustained a severely comminuted (shattered) fracture to his right radius bone, completely severing the bone and destroying the wrist's structural integrity. Medics noted that the median nerve was also damaged, leading to an instant loss of motor control and strength in his right hand.
The Physics: Holding a rigid cowboy hat (Stetson) firmly in the air requires grip strength and the use of the wrist joint. Once shattered, the hand would typically go limp, causing the hat to fall to the floor of the limousine instantly.
8)The Warren Commission's [SNIP] theorized Connally reflexively maintained the hat in his grasp or that the hat was simply trapped in his hand or lap as he was struck.
[SNIP]
The most prominent expert who explicitly used the term "highly improbable" regarding the single-bullet theory and its medical trajectory is Dr. Cyril Wecht. He was a highly renowned forensic pathologist, attorney, and former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.
Dr. Cyril Wecht's Medical Critique: Dr. Wecht extensively studied the medical evidence and testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA). He vehemently argued against the Warren Commission's timeline using Zapruder film frame 230.
His expert critique regarding the hat specifically centers on the following points:
The Neurological Impossibility: Dr. Wecht noted that the bullet shattered the distal end of Connally's right radius bone (wrist) and partially severed his radial nerve.
Voluntary vs. Involuntary Control: He argued that with a collapsed lung from the chest wound and a shredded wrist nerve, it is medically "incongruous" for Connally to maintain voluntary grip strength to hold up a heavy Stetson cowboy hat for 1.5 seconds after the alleged impact.
[SNIP]
The Parkland Hospital Surgeons: Doctors like Dr. Charles Gregory (who operated on Connally’s wrist) noted that the neurovascular and bone destruction from a high-velocity military round would cause immediate, catastrophic loss of function in the hand.
Independent Forensic Analysts: Over decades, secondary medical critics—such as those featured in Jim Garrison's investigative files and various independent forensic studies—concluded that the hand would immediately go limp, meaning the hat could only remain in the hand if it was involuntarily trapped or wedged against his lap rather than actively held.
[SNIP]
Gov. JBC is indisputably seen at Z-272 holding onto his Stetson hat. Even the WC assents to that. Yet, the WC contends Gov. JBC was already shot through the wrist at that point...well, that is highly improbable.
A couple follow-up points: First and foremost, we should remember that Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the wounding, insisted he was not hit before Z229-230. After viewing the Zapruder film a few times for the WC, Connally said he was not hit before Z230. Two years later, in 1966, he was given the opportunity by LIFE magazine to study high-quality color prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, frame by frame, and to take as much time as he felt he needed. After doing so, Connally insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, and he selected Z234 as the moment of the bullet's impact.
As you noted, in Z230 Connally is still holding the hat. The hat is not pinned or wedged involuntarily against his thigh but is being held by his right hand. This proves his wrist could not have been hit yet, but the SBT requires that he was hit no later than Z224, and the Zapruder film shows he was clearly hit well before Z224.
It is revealing that even the HSCA FPP majority disagreed among themselves about how long Connally could have held onto his hat after the supposed SBT hit at Z188-190 (there was a Z188-190 hit, but it was not the alleged magic bullet). They fell back on the royal dodge that there was "little empirical data" to determine "with confidence what specific reaction should be expected from this type of wound" (7 HSCA 180). Well, yeah, unless they had film of someone being shot in the right wrist ala Connally's wrist wound, or unless they actually watched someone incurring such a wound, there was indeed little empirical data, i.e., data verified by observation or experience; however, there was plenty of scientific medical data that said there was no way a person could continue to hold onto a hat with their hand after the distal end of the radius bone was shattered and after part of the radial nerve was severed, and the FPP majority surely knew it.
It is also rather revealing that in the FPP majority's reply to Dr. Wecht's dissent, they made no effort to explain how Connally could have continued to grip his hat--not one word. Wecht mocked the majority's waffling on this key point:
Wecht exhibit 6 shows JBC firmly clutching his hat. This is approximately 1.5 seconds after he is alleged to have been shot through the chest, right wrist, and into his left thigh. Indeed, the FPPR [forensic pathology panel report] states that they were surprised that although he had suffered the injury to his wrist, he did not drop his hat. The panel should not only be surprised, but incredulous. If they were not so slavishly dedicated to defending the Warren Commission report (WCR), and the previous opinions submitted by two of the panel members, Dr. James Weston and Dr. Werner Spitz, they would have interpreted this picture correctly and accepted it for what it obviously and clearly demonstrates-namely, that JBC was not struck in the chest, wrist, or thigh by CE 399, and the SBT is, therefore, indefensible. (7 HSCA 199)
In his HSCA testimony, Wecht explained why Z230 poses such a severe problem for the SBT:
Mr. PURDY. Dr. Wecht, in your opinion, could Governor Connally have incurred the damage to his wrist which is described in the medical reports and still be holding the hat as shown in this photograph?
Dr. WECHT. No, absolutely not. In F-245, which is a blowup of Zapruder frame 230, we are told under the single-bullet theory that Gov. John Connally, for a period of approximately one and a half seconds, has already been shot through the right chest with the right lung pierced and collapsed, through the right wrist, with the distal end of the radius comminuted and the radial nerve partially
severed.
I heard some vague reference to a nerve in the prior testimony, but I didn't hear the follow through discussion that I was waiting for about nerve damage. There was nerve damage, yes, to the radial nerve. And the thumb which holds this large Texas white Stetson that is required for it to be in apposition with the index or index and middle fingers to hold that hat is innervated by the radial nerve. Note in F-245 that the hat is still being held and Governor Connally is not reacting. (1 HSCA 342)
Finally, it is worth remembering that Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the FPP majority, admitted in 1975 that the back-wound bullet "penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction" and that the bullet "traveled upwards within the body." He admitted this in his report to the Rockefeller Commission, adding that there was "no doubt" about it:
There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)
The wound's abrasion collar alone makes this clear, so clear that this was something Baden could not sweep under the rug, and so the FPP report acknowledges the upward trajectory of the bullet as it entered the skin and allegedly transited the neck. Baden attempted to explain this devastating fact by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck (oddly, the WC's trajectory experts had to make the same erroneous assumption about the forward lean of JFK's head to make the head-shot trajectory "work").
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A couple follow-up points: First and foremost, we should remember that Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the wounding, insisted he was not hit before Z229-230. After viewing the Zapruder film a few times for the WC, Connally said he was not hit before Z230. Two years later, in 1966, he was given the opportunity by LIFE magazine to study high-quality color prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, frame by frame, and to take as much time as he felt he needed. After doing so, Connally insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, and he selected Z234 as the moment of the bullet's impact.
JBC remembered how he reacted to being shot by doubling over and dipping to his right. What he didn't remember was his involuntary reflexive arm flip beginning at Z226 which came a split second after being shot and a split second before he began to dip to his right. JBC looked at the Z-frames and saw what he remembered doing and decided he was hit at about Z230. He was only off by less than half a second. I'll give him an A-minus for his effort.
Like most CTs, you have no explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at Z-226, the same frame JFK suddenly flipped both of his arms up. Instead you choose to pretend that didn't happen.
As you noted, in Z230 Connally is still holding the hat. The hat is not pinned or wedged involuntarily against his thigh but is being held by his right hand. This proves his wrist could not have been hit yet, but the SBT requires that he was hit no later than Z224, and the Zapruder film shows he was clearly hit well before Z224.
This proves you have very poor analytical skills. The claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about. People do not automatically drop things when they are shot. To illustrate this, Michael Baden pointed to the assassination of mob boss Carmine Gallante who was shot and killed while eating lunch at a sidewalk cafe in Brooklyn. His lifeless body still had his cigar clenched in his teeth as shown below.
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/galante4.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1488
It is revealing that even the HSCA FPP majority disagreed among themselves about how long Connally could have held onto his hat after the supposed SBT hit at Z188-190 (there was a Z188-190 hit, but it was not the alleged magic bullet). They fell back on the royal dodge that there was "little empirical data" to determine "with confidence what specific reaction should be expected from this type of wound (7 HSCA 180)."
IOW, there is no proof JBC would have dropped his hat after being shot.
Well, yeah, unless they had film of someone being shot in the right wrist ala Connally's wrist wound, or unless they actually watched someone incurring such a wound, there was indeed little empirical data, i.e., data verified by observation or experience; however, there was plenty of scientific medical data that said there was no way a person could continue to hold onto a hat with their hand after the distal end of the radius bone was shattered and after part of the radial nerve was severed, and the FPP majority surely knew it.
Please cite such data.
It is also rather revealing that in the FPP majority's reply to Dr. Wecht's dissent, they made no effort to explain how Connally could have continued to grip his hat--not one word. Wecht mocked the majority's waffling on this key point:
Wecht exhibit 6 shows JBC firmly clutching his hat. This is approximately 1.5 seconds after he is alleged to have been shot through the chest, right wrist, and into his left thigh. Indeed, the FPPR [forensic pathology panel report] states that they were surprised that although he had suffered the injury to his wrist, he did not drop his hat. The panel should not only be surprised, but incredulous. If they were not so slavishly dedicated to defending the Warren Commission report (WCR), and the previous opinions submitted by two of the panel members, Dr. James Weston and Dr. Werner Spitz, they would have interpreted this picture correctly and accepted it for what it obviously and clearly demonstrates-namely, that JBC was not struck in the chest, wrist, or thigh by CE 399, and the SBT is, therefore, indefensible. (7 HSCA 199)
The burden of proof belongs to the person(s) making a claim. The claim is that JBC could not have held his hat after being shot in the wrist, an assertion for which there is no evidence.
In his HSCA testimony, Wecht explained why Z230 poses such a severe problem for the SBT:
Mr. PURDY. Dr. Wecht, in your opinion, could Governor Connally have incurred the damage to his wrist which is described in the medical reports and still be holding the hat as shown in this photograph?
Dr. WECHT. No, absolutely not. In F-245, which is a blowup of Zapruder frame 230, we are told under the single-bullet theory that Gov. John Connally, for a period of approximately one and a half seconds, has already been shot through the right chest with the right lung pierced and collapsed, through the right wrist, with the distal end of the radius comminuted and the radial nerve partially
severed.
Z230 is actually only about a half second after JBC was shot. The HSCA timing of the shots was completely FUBAR based on bogus junk science. It really doesn't matter because JBC continued to hold his hat well after he began his gyrations in reaction to having been shot.
I heard some vague reference to a nerve in the prior testimony, but I didn't hear the follow through discussion that I was waiting for about nerve damage. There was nerve damage, yes, to the radial nerve. And the thumb which holds this large Texas white Stetson that is required for it to be in apposition with the index or index and middle fingers to hold that hat is innervated by the radial nerve. Note in F-245 that the hat is still being held and Governor Connally is not reacting. (1 HSCA 342)[/font]
Finally, it is worth remembering that Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the FPP majority, admitted in 1975 that the back-wound bullet "penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction" and that the bullet "traveled upwards within the body." He admitted this in his report to the Rockefeller Commission, adding that there was "no doubt" about it:
There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)
One of the favorite ploys of CTs is to quote people out of context. The statement that the bullet went through JFK on an upward trajectory was in relaton to the anatomical position, i.e. flat on his back. JFK was not in an anatomical position when shot in the back. The picture below, taken shortly before the shooting, replicates the JFK's approximate position at the time of the shooting, with his right elbow on the side of the car and turned toward the spectators to his right. This position raises his right shoulder while lowering the position of his necktie in the front which is where the bullet exited.
https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/231116124910-lead-image-jfk-assassination.jpg?q=w_3000,c_fill
The HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded that a bullet entered JFK's back and exited from his throat. If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition.
The wound's abrasion collar alone makes this clear, so clear that this was something Baden could not sweep under the rug, and so the FPP report acknowledges the upward trajectory of the bullet as it entered the skin and allegedly transited the neck. Baden attempted to explain this devastating fact by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck (oddly, the WC's trajectory experts had to make the same erroneous assumption about the forward lean of JFK's head to make the head-shot trajectory "work").
Once again, an amateur sleuth like MTG tries to substitute his FUBAR analysis of the medical evidence for the unaninous conclusion of a panel of some of the most respected forensic medical examiners of their day. It's a very easy call as to whom we should believe.
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Like most CTs, you have no explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at Z-226, the same frame JFK suddenly flipped both of his arms up. Instead you choose to pretend that didn't happen.
The movement of the arm could be completely voluntary. You may notice that after z226 he turns around, as we see in Altgens #6:
(https://i.postimg.cc/13Thj9H3/Altgens6-closeup-JBC.jpg)
He has to lift his right hand in preparing to turn because his right elbow needs to be above the seat back in order to turn. He said he turned around to his right in response to hearing the first shot.
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JBC remembered how he reacted to being shot by doubling over and dipping to his right. What he didn't remember was his involuntary reflexive arm flip beginning at Z226 which came a split second after being shot and a split second before he began to dip to his right. JBC looked at the Z-frames and saw what he remembered doing and decided he was hit at about Z230. He was only off by less than half a second. I'll give him an A-minus for his effort.
Like most CTs, you have no explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at Z-226, the same frame JFK suddenly flipped both of his arms up. Instead you choose to pretend that didn't happen.
This proves you have very poor analytical skills. The claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about. People do not automatically drop things when they are shot. To illustrate this, Michael Baden pointed to the assassination of mob boss Carmine Gallante who was shot and killed while eating lunch at a sidewalk cafe in Brooklyn. His lifeless body still had his cigar clenched in his teeth as shown below.
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/galante4.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1488
IOW, there is no proof JBC would have dropped his hat after being shot.
Please cite such data.
Z230 is actually only about a half second after JBC was shot. The HSCA timing of the shots was completely FUBAR based on bogus junk science. It really doesn't matter because JBC continued to hold his hat well after he began his gyrations in reaction to having been shot.
One of the favorite ploys of CTs is to quote people out of context. The statement that the bullet went through JFK on an upward trajectory was in relaton to the anatomical position, i.e. flat on his back. JFK was not in an anatomical position when shot in the back. The picture below, taken shortly before the shooting, replicates the JFK's approximate position at the time of the shooting, with his right elbow on the side of the car and turned toward the spectators to his right. This position raises his right shoulder while lowering the position of his necktie in the front which is where the bullet exited.
https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/231116124910-lead-image-jfk-assassination.jpg?q=w_3000,c_fill
The HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded that a bullet entered JFK's back and exited from his throat. If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition.
Once again, an amateur sleuth like MTG tries to substitute his FUBAR analysis of the medical evidence for the unaninous conclusion of a panel of some of the most respected forensic medical examiners of their day. It's a very easy call as to whom we should believe.
You choose to ignore the hard photographic evidence that the back wound was caused by a bullet that hit at an upward angle and that the bullet's track tunneled upward. Why? Because, you say, "If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition."
No, this just shows your severe ignorance and extreme bias. You don't even know the basics of the case. Since Elm Street slopes downward, and since JFK's head and upper torso were leaning slightly forward, a shot fired from the first or second floor of the Dal-Tex Building would have hit JFK's back at an upward angle. Incidentally, the Dal-Tex Building was the same building where Mafia man Eugene Brading was arrested for acting suspiciously right after the shooting, and the same building from which some witnesses said they heard shots fired.
I should add that the fact that the autopsy photo of the back wound proves the bullet hit and traveled at an upward angle is one of the findings that "the HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded." Indeed, this was one of the few FPP findings that Wecht did not dispute. Also, the only way Baden, the FPP chairman, could explain this fact was by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck.
And, oh, well, of course you claim that Connally was "off" when he insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, even after he studied a high-quality color print of the Zapruder film under high magnification frame by frame. Somehow he just "missed" the specious pre-Z229 "reactions" that you and other SBT defenders claim to see in the film, even though Connally was the one who actually experienced the shooting and knew himself better than anyone else.
Obviously, Connally didn't see any significance in the movement of his right arm in Z226, certainly not as an indication that he'd been hit yet. Z226 merely shows the continuation of a movement he began several frames earlier as he was turning back from looking at JFK. You must be blind to claim that his movement resembles the sudden and dramatic jolting forward of JFK's torso and the upward flinging of his hands and elbows from Z226-232. You must be kidding.
BTW, I'm guessing you're unaware that at the ABA mock Oswald trial, SBT defender Dr. Robert Piziali of Failure Analysis admitted under cross-examination that JFK's Z225 reaction means the bullet must have hit him no later than Z221. Years earlier, Dr. John Lattimer, to his credit, made the same admission.
You make the hilarious statement that "the claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about."
Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand. Dr. Wecht, a former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, said the same thing. Even the FPP majority could not agree on how long Connally could have gripped the hat after his wrist was hit, and they made no effort to explain how he could have still held the hat even as late as Z272.
The only layman making bogus claims here is you.
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You choose to ignore the hard photographic evidence that the back wound was caused by a bullet that hit at an upward angle and that the bullet's track tunneled upward. Why? Because, you say, "If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition."
No, this just shows your severe ignorance and extreme bias. You don't even know the basics of the case. Since Elm Street slopes downward, and since JFK's head and upper torso were leaning slightly forward, a shot fired from the first or second floor of the Dal-Tex Building would have hit JFK's back at an upward angle. Incidentally, the Dal-Tex Building was the same building where Mafia man Eugene Brading was arrested for acting suspiciously right after the shooting, and the same building from which some witnesses said they heard shots fired.
Oh, so you can believe that shot could go through JFK on an upward angle if fired from above and behind him if fired from the Dal-Tex building but not if fired from the TSBD. I'd love to see your calculation that such a shot is feasible from a second floor location but not a sixth floor location.
I should add that the fact that the autopsy photo of the back wound proves the bullet hit and traveled at an upward angle is one of the findings that "the HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded." Indeed, this was one of the few FPP findings that Wecht did not dispute. Also, the only way Baden, the FPP chairman, could explain this fact was by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck.
And, oh, well, of course you claim that Connally was "off" when he insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, even after he studied a high-quality color print of the Zapruder film under high magnification frame by frame. Somehow he just "missed" the specious pre-Z229 "reactions" that you and other SBT defenders claim to see in the film, even though Connally was the one who actually experienced the shooting and knew himself better than anyone else.
JBC was looking specifically for the reaction he remembered making and found it post Z230. He wasn't looking for the reflexive reaction that he had no memory of making.
Obviously, Connally didn't see any significance in the movement of his right arm in Z226, certainly not as an indication that he'd been hit yet. Z226 merely shows the continuation of a movement he began several frames earlier as he was turning back from looking at JFK. You must be blind to claim that his movement resembles the sudden and dramatic jolting forward of JFK's torso and the upward flinging of his hands and elbows from Z226-232. You must be kidding.
JBC began rotating his torso to the front a few frames earlier. His arm movement began at Z226 and was just as rapid and dramatic as JFK's arm movement. The up and down motion of JBC's right arm lasted for 9 frames, a half a second, and was immediately followed by the reaction which JBC remembered making. I don't suppose you have any explanation for what caused JBC's rapid up and down arm flip.
BTW, I'm guessing you're unaware that at the ABA mock Oswald trial, SBT defender Dr. Robert Piziali of Failure Analysis admitted under cross-examination that JFK's Z225 reaction means the bullet must have hit him no later than Z221. Years earlier, Dr. John Lattimer, to his credit, made the same admission.
For years I have been of the belief that JFK/JBC were struck in the Z222-223 window. That's as precise as we can get given the timepiece we have to work with, which is the Z-film. With each frame covering 1/18 second of time, that is as precise as we can get.
You make the hilarious statement that "the claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about."
Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand. Dr. Wecht, a former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, said the same thing. Even the FPP majority could not agree on how long Connally could have gripped the hat after his wrist was hit, and they made no effort to explain how he could have still held the hat even as late as Z272.
The only layman making bogus claims here is you.
The fact that there is disagreement among the FPP is an indication it is not an established fact that JBC could not have held onto his had after being shot through the wrist. If you have proof of which of these medical examiners is right and which ones are wrong, please post it. In absence of such, it is an unproven assertion.
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Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand.---MTG
This is my recollection of what Gregory said also. Can you find reference to this in the WC?
I have reasonable doubts that Gov. JBC held onto his hat after being shot through the wrist.
Ergo, a reasonable deduction is JBC had not yet been shot by Z-275.
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The bullet entered JFK's upper back approximately two inches right of JFK's back.
My, what an awkward sentence.
The location [of the entry wound in JFK's upper back/lower neck] is shown in one of the leaked autopsy photos. The bullet exited JFK's throat at the level of the knot of his necktie. It tumbled upon exiting and struck JBC who was sitting in front of and slightly to the left of JFK.
You forgot to mention that JBC was sitting lower than JFK and was turned far to his right when he, too, was struck by CE399.
The bullet entered in the back near his right armpit making an elongated wound due to the tumble. The bullet exited below his right nipple and passed through his right wrist, depositing tiny lead fragments from the core which was only exposed at the base of the bullet. The bullet went on to make a shallow penetration in JBC's thigh before working its way loose and was discovered at Parkland hospital and became CE399.
Correct.
These three articles are nothing more than a collection of stale old myths, misstatements of fact, and your amateur analysis of the medical evidence which is at odds with the conclusions of the FPP, which concurred with the SBT with the lone dissenter being Cyril Wecht. A classic example of garbage in, garbage out.
Correct.
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Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand.---MTG
This is my recollection of what Gregory said also. Can you find reference to this in the WC?
I have reasonable doubts that Gov. JBC held onto his hat after being shot through the wrist.
Ergo, a reasonable deduction is JBC had not yet been shot by Z-275.
There is nothing reasonable about your deductions.
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First and foremost, we should remember that Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the wounding, insisted he was not hit before Z229-230. After viewing the Zapruder film a few times for the WC, Connally said he was not hit before Z230. Two years later, in 1966, he was given the opportunity by LIFE magazine to study high-quality color prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, frame by frame, and to take as much time as he felt he needed. After doing so, Connally insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, and he selected Z234 as the moment of the bullet's impact.
And, oh, well, of course you claim that Connally was "off" when he insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, even after he studied a high-quality color print of the Zapruder film under high magnification frame by frame. Somehow he just "missed" the specious pre-Z229 "reactions" that you and other SBT defenders claim to see in the film, even though Connally was the one who actually experienced the shooting and knew himself better than anyone else.
Obviously, Connally didn't see any significance in the movement of his right arm in Z226, certainly not as an indication that he'd been hit yet. Z226 merely shows the continuation of a movement he began several frames earlier as he was turning back from looking at JFK. You must be blind to claim that his movement resembles the sudden and dramatic jolting forward of JFK's torso and the upward flinging of his hands and elbows from Z226-232. You must be kidding.
Gov. Connally had good reasons for selecting Z234 as the moment of impact. One of them was that starting in Z238 we see a very definite change in Connally: his right shoulder rapidly collapses, his cheeks puff, and a pained expression appears on his face. The right-shoulder collapse matches Connally's earliest descriptions of the bullet's impact: he said the impact felt like someone hit him powerfully in the back with their first.
Lone-gunman theorists have fallen all over themselves trying to explain this dramatic, obvious reaction event, with a few even making the specious claim that the shoulder collapse is an optical illusion. Why does the Z238-242 reaction pose such a problem for WC apologists? Because they are chained down by the single-bullet theory (SBT), which requires that Connally was hit absolutely no later than Z224.
A Z234 hit makes perfect sense with what we see in the Zapruder film. It makes total sense that a bullet that hit Connally in the back would only take four Zapruder frames--4/18ths of a second or 218.4 milliseconds--to drive his right shoulder downward. 218.4 milliseconds is in the range of the speed of an eye blink. Eye-blink speed ranges between 100 and 400 milliseconds.
Similarly, the forced expulsion of air from Connally's lungs would have been quite rapid and forceful, quickly causing his cheeks to puff, just as we see in the Zapruder film virtually simultaneously with his right-shoulder drop. The cheeks start to puff just a frame or two after the right shoulder starts to drop.
And, needless to say, the shattering of 4 inches of rib bone alone was extremely painful and would have quickly caused a pained expression to appear on Connally's face. Forensic science tells us that when people experience a sharp, sudden pain, it only takes 150-300 milliseconds to react with a pained facial expression.
Of course, these reactions make no sense in a Z224-hit scenario. It most certainly would not have taken Connally's right shoulder 14 frames to begin to be driven downward, nor would it have taken 14 frames for Connally to react with a pained facial expression and for his cheeks to puff.
It is worth noting that Dr. Robert Shaw, Connally's chest surgeon, studied the Zapruder film and
concluded the bullet struck the Governor at Z236, "give or take 1 or 2 frames, and that Dr. Charles Gregory, Connally's wrist surgeon, opined that the hit occurred between Z234 and Z238.
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You were chided because you doubt there was ONLY one gunman and ONLY one bullet hit JFK and Connally ? Am I Right ? That's nonsense. I really don't know what people are thinking. Don't let any of these people disturb you, bother you, or sway you. In Texas the answer was obvious. Yes I was alive then.
Every Texas boy back then knew weapons. Look again at the Z film. All these 'Theories' are absolutely, positively, IMPOSSIBLE. There is no projectile on planet earth that follows a razor line thru and thru two men, but can also make a man's head explode. Not Possible. The Exploding Head requires a special bullet (we used them for predators) called a Hollow Point. There is no other round that can do that.
The Carcano is a military rifle and therefore (by the rules of war - 1898 The Hague) like all military rifles, only ONE type round is made for the weapon. It can ONLY shoot bullets specifically made Not to fragment. These are called FMJ's (Full Metal Jackets). This could account for a single shot, but the angles are wrong and we don't have the projectile. So, in any case, their must be at least two shooters, with two Different Types of ammo and possibly different caliber weapons .
Any other scenario is IMPOSSIBLE.
The Only Real Question is, was, and always will be... Who were the real shooters, How many, and was LHO even one of them ? Notice I did not say conspiracy or assassination. Neither of those points have proven.
Granted, a different scenario is highly unlikely, but it has to be treated and dismissed with Proof.
The Entire Problem with this case, is that so many issues require a, "been there, done that" kind of Experience and Knowledge. This is not the Oprah Whinfry Show. One's Personal opinion is irrelevant, unless it can be backed up with the type of evidence and proof that can stand up in a Court of Law.
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. One's Personal opinion is irrelevant, unless it can be backed up with the type of evidence and proof that can stand up in a Court of Law.
Unless you are a ballistics expert with a solid education in physics, your opinion would not be admissible, let alone stand up, in a court of law.
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I Have Just Such an Education and personal but not professional experience. Whether or not I could Testify, would be decided by a judge thru voir dire.
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Gov. Connally had good reasons for selecting Z234 as the moment of impact. One of them was that starting in Z238 we see a very definite change in Connally: his right shoulder rapidly collapses, his cheeks puff, and a pained expression appears on his face. The right-shoulder collapse matches Connally's earliest descriptions of the bullet's impact: he said the impact felt like someone hit him powerfully in the back with their first.
Lone-gunman theorists have fallen all over themselves trying to explain this dramatic, obvious reaction event, with a few even making the specious claim that the shoulder collapse is an optical illusion. Why does the Z238-242 reaction pose such a problem for WC apologists? Because they are chained down by the single-bullet theory (SBT), which requires that Connally was hit absolutely no later than Z224.
Funny, but this is the first time I have seen this argument made. Perhaps that was an argument advanced in the early days of public access to the Z-film. It was first shown in the mid-1970s on Geraldo's first nighttime news program but that was before VCRs had gained popularity so I doubt many people got to see it then. I didn't see it for the first time until the late 1980s when CBS News did a program on the assassination anchored by Walter Cronkite. Even then, I remember them only playing it once at regular speed than examined short clips in more detail. This was about the time the internet was becoming more popular and ISPs gave widespread access to it. I joined the Prodigy service in 1991 shortly after it became available which coincided with the release of Oliver Stone's movie. That gave me my first exposure to both JFK discussion groups and internet porn.
A Z234 hit makes perfect sense with what we see in the Zapruder film. It makes total sense that a bullet that hit Connally in the back would only take four Zapruder frames--4/18ths of a second or 218.4 milliseconds--to drive his right shoulder downward. 218.4 milliseconds is in the range of the speed of an eye blink. Eye-blink speed ranges between 100 and 400 milliseconds.
A Z234 hit doesn't explain JBC's Z226 arm flip. Maybe JBC was anticipating getting shot in the wrist less than a half second later.
Similarly, the forced expulsion of air from Connally's lungs would have been quite rapid and forceful, quickly causing his cheeks to puff, just as we see in the Zapruder film virtually simultaneously with his right-shoulder drop. The cheeks start to puff just a frame or two after the right shoulder starts to drop.
This seemed like an odd explanation to me even back in the late 1980s when Cronkite mentioned it on the CBS documentary. As I recall, he was presenting it as an argument by the CTs and not as if it was an established fact. Sounds like a SWAG to me (Scientific Wild Ass Guess)
And, needless to say, the shattering of 4 inches of rib bone alone was extremely painful and would have quickly caused a pained expression to appear on Connally's face. Forensic science tells us that when people experience a sharp, sudden pain, it only takes 150-300 milliseconds to react with a pained facial expression.
That defies JBC's WC testimony. He said he didn't feel any great pain until he got to the hospital and tried to stand up:
"Again, a strange thing---strange things run through your mind and, perhaps, not so strange under the circumstances, but I immediately--the only thought that occurred to me was that I was in the jump seat next to the door, that everyone concerned, was going to be concerned with the President; that I had to get out of the way so they could get to the President. So although I was reclining, and again Mrs. Connally holding me, I suddenly lurched out of her arms and tried to stand upright to get myself out of the car.
I got--I don't really know how far I got. They tell me I got almost upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up and put me on a stretcher. I again was very conscious because this was the first time that I had any real sensation of pain, and at this point the pain in the chest was excruciating, and I kept repeating just over and over, "My God, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was excruciating at that point."
Of course, these reactions make no sense in a Z224-hit scenario. It most certainly would not have taken Connally's right shoulder 14 frames to begin to be driven downward, nor would it have taken 14 frames for Connally to react with a pained facial expression and for his cheeks to puff.
I'll leave that explanation to the people who have claimed JBC's shoulder was driven down by the force of the bullet. What the CTs fail to grasp is there are two types of reactions. Cognitive and reflexive. The latter happens more rapidly because it requires no interaction with the brain. The nerves and muscles are stimulated by an external source causing an involuntary movement such as JBC's arm flip. Cognitive reactions are a bit slower because the nerves send a message to the brain which sends a signal back to the muscle groups involved. In JBC's case his cognitive reaction happened about a half second after the bullet strike which followed his reflexive response.
https://thisvsthat.io/cognitive-vs-reactive
It is worth noting that Dr. Robert Shaw, Connally's chest surgeon, studied the Zapruder film and
concluded the bullet struck the Governor at Z236, "give or take 1 or 2 frames, and that Dr. Charles Gregory, Connally's wrist surgeon, opined that the hit occurred between Z234 and Z238.
Shaw's guess was only off by about 2/3 of a second.
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Zapruder film trivia:
February 14, 1969: "In an evening news program, Los Angeles station KTLA aired a copy of the Zapruder film, narrated by anchor Hal Fishman. The broadcast included reports of the day’s testimony in the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans." Also, about a year later a Chicago station (WSNS) showed the film on a leftwing/underground type program called "Underground News with Chuck Collins."
Both of these were local news stations.
I remember reading about the first (not the specific station) but not the second.
https://www.jfk.org/the-collections/abraham-zapruder-film/
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That has always been an interesting aspect of Gov. John Connally's wounds: His two surgeons thought the SBT did not hold water.
Dr. Robert Shaw and Dr. Charles Gregory were not activists or leftists, and Shaw had military experience of working on hundreds of wartime gunshot victims. Shaw, without dispute, is an authority on the topic.
My take is Shaw and Gregory gave their earnest opinions and had no axes to grind.
Gregory found that a projectile had entered JBC's wrist on the dorsal side...almost an anatomical impossibility for a slug that first entered JBC's chest from the rear.
Shaw thought it most likely JBC had been hit by a separate shot, that shot had not been impeded before hitting JBC.
The small round hole in the rear of JBC's assassination day shirt strongly suggests a direct shot, and not a slug that hit JBC "sideways" after tumbling.
There are a lot of reasons to have reasonable doubts about SBT, including that it was fabricated by Arlen Specter based on the premise that only two shots had struck JFK and JBC. Specter's job was to present the SBT-LNT narrative, not to investigate the truth. The WC concluded that one shot struck near Tague.
That CE-399 was not found in Trauma Room 2 adds another layer of perplexity. Even then hospital procedures were to retain bullets and report bullet wounds to police. JBC recalls the bullet fell from his leg on clicked on the floor of Trauma Room 2.
Yet somehow a slug is found in the Parkland hospital corridor, described as a "pointy-head" slug by OP Wright, hospital administrator and former police chief, and then that slug is purported to be CE-399.
I have reasonable doubts about the LNT-SBT.
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I have reasonable doubts about the LNT-SBT.
If you have your mobile phone handy, call somebody who gives a shit.
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Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand.---MTG
This is my recollection of what Gregory said also. Can you find reference to this in the WC?
I have reasonable doubts that Gov. JBC held onto his hat after being shot through the wrist.
Ergo, a reasonable deduction is JBC had not yet been shot by Z-275.
So this a curious dilemma if the SBT Z224 shot lines up with the right wrist and left thigh. How was JBC sitting on the jump seat such that the Z224 SBT shot goes thru his right wrist and then into his left thigh without going thru the hat. There’s only one position and it’s an odd one in which JBC is sitting half off the left side of the jump seat with both his legs rotated right about 45 degree just as his upper torso/ shoulder line appears to be. His right hand would have to be holding his hat upside down with the well of the hat over the left side of his left leg.
Several problems:
1. His right arm would have to be diagonally across his chest to hold the hat over the left side of his left leg. That would be rather an uncomfortable position to maintain.
2. There does not appear to be any indication of JBC right arm upper arm being diagonally across his chest in the Z film at Z222-z225
3. Turning both his legs 45 degrees right makes sense enough but why would JBC shift his buttocks half way off the left side of the jump seat?
4. Holding the expensive Stetson hat upside down off the left side of the left leg would be smushing the hat between the leg and the back side of the front seat. This seems a disrespectful way to hold a prized iconic hat that JBC often wore in public.
A more comfortable position that has both legs together turned rightward and the buttocks remaining fully on the seat, would have JBC holding the hat right side up resting atop both his legs. His right arm would be as it’s seen in Z223 which is NOT diagonally across his chest but simply normally by the right side of his body. His right hand is turned resting palm upwards on his legs. In this way the hat is being more carefully / respectfully held to avoid any deformation of the hat.
However if JBC holds the hat right side up atop both his legs, thus having his right hand palm side up, then it’s IMPOSSIBLE that a Z224 bullet could enter his wrist from the top and exit from the palm of his hand. Likewise, the bullet could not have bypassed the upright part of the hat if continuing on into the inner thigh of the left leg.
The only other position that has been proposed for JBC is by Andrew Mason. At Z190 JBC has both his legs spread wide apart with his left leg hanging out leftwards while JC attempts to twist himself rightward even MORE than 45 degrees rightward. At Z190 he is only hit in the thigh. The bullet disappears. The wrist wound is cause by some fragment. This theory is rejected by most if not all the LNs on this forum.
Thus is why I put out the question about the probability of a fragment causing the wrist wound because neither the conventional LN SBT position for JBC nor Andrew’s alternative LN position(s) seem to work for CE 399 having caused the wrist wound.
If not a fragment and not CE 399, then the wrist wound remains a dilemma.
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So this a curious dilemma if the SBT Z224 shot lines up with the right wrist and left thigh. How was JBC sitting on the jump seat such that the Z224 SBT shot goes thru his right wrist and then into his left thigh without going thru the hat. There’s only one position and it’s an odd one in which JBC is sitting half off the left side of the jump seat with both his legs rotated right about 45 degree just as his upper torso/ shoulder line appears to be. His right hand would have to be holding his hat upside down with the well of the hat over the left side of his left leg.
Several problems:
1. His right arm would have to be diagonally across his chest to hold the hat over the left side of his left leg. That would be rather an uncomfortable position to maintain.
2. There does not appear to be any indication of JBC right arm upper arm being diagonally across his chest in the Z film at Z222-z225
3. Turning both his legs 45 degrees right makes sense enough but why would JBC shift his buttocks half way off the left side of the jump seat?
4. Holding the expensive Stetson hat upside down off the left side of the left leg would be smushing the hat between the leg and the back side of the front seat. This seems a disrespectful way to hold a prized iconic hat that JBC often wore in public.
There is also the problem of explaining how the bullet goes from the left side of JFK’s tie knot on a right to left path and strikes JBC in the right armpit but misses JFK’s hands:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncdg36jz/JFK-reaction-224-to-225.gif)
A more comfortable position that has both legs together turned rightward and the buttocks remaining fully on the seat, would have JBC holding the hat right side up resting atop both his legs.
Have you actually tried putting a cushion and sitting on it with your feet on the floor and keeping your legs together? Try it. You will see why it is highly unlikely for JBC to have assumed such a position.
The only other position that has been proposed for JBC is by Andrew Mason. At Z190 JBC has both his legs spread wide apart with his left leg hanging out leftwards while JC attempts to twist himself rightward even MORE than 45 degrees rightward. At Z190 he is only hit in the thigh. The bullet disappears. The wrist wound is caused by some fragment.
I have never suggested that the wrist wound is caused by a fragment. It was caused by the bullet that exited from the chest. The bullet fragmented on striking the wrist and fragments deflected away from the point of contact with the radius bone.
All the evidence indicates that the second shot occurred much closer to the third shot, which puts it while JBC is turned around to the right. This gives the general idea of the trajectory:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1QX50Pp/overhead-model-271.jpg)
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Because JBC's lower body can't be seen in the Z-film, we can only speculate how his right wrist and left thigh were aligned at Z222. Because the bullet had been slowed considerably before hitting the wrist, there is also a strong possibility the bullet had a significant deflection sending it into his left thigh. There will always be some things about the JFKA that we will likely never know. That's no reason to ignore the things we can know, primarily that Oswald fired three shots at JFK, striking in in the bac and the head with the last two causing his death.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/C1QX50Pp/overhead-model-271.jpg)
There are so many things wrong with this sketch it is hard to know where to begin. For starters you make the same mistake CTs have by putting JBC's seat directly in front of JFK. The jump seat was offset to toward the left by about a half a body width. You have JFK too far to the left. He was up against the right side of the car with his elbow resting on the side. The diagonal of the shot is wrong. JBC was not turned that far when he was struck You show the bullet entering JBC's side instead of his back and then miraculously making a near 90 degree turn to the right in order to exit from below JBC's right nipple.
You need to take this one back to the drawing board, Andrew. Better yet, you ought to just drop this ridiculous scenario you've been trying to peddle for about two decades. Nobody, LN or CT, is buying it. The fact that you have to make so many exaggerations to make your theory seem plausible should tell you that it isn't.
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There are so many things wrong with this sketch it is hard to know where to begin. For starters you make the same mistake CTs have by putting JBC's seat directly in front of JFK. The jump seat was offset to toward the left by about a half a body width.
Not according to Itek’s analysis, and not according to any measurements taken or the scale drawing provided by Hess and Eisenhardt who built it. The latter shows the right edge of the jump seat 2.5 inches inside the door.
You have JFK too far to the left. He was up against the right side of the car with his elbow resting on the side. The diagonal of the shot is wrong. JBC was not turned that far when he was struck
?? I am showing his position at z270. He has moved far to the left. Look at Altgens 6.
You show the bullet entering JBC's side instead of his back and then miraculously making a near 90 degree turn to the right in order to exit from below JBC's right nipple.
Nowhere near 90. It is less than 30 degrees. Put your finger just below your right nipple and turn around like that. The nipple stays in front of the right scapula and moves to the right.
The bullet deflects because JBC felt a significant impact in the back. It hit the fifth rib and pushed it enough to cause a fracture near the spine.
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As I've pointed out before, no wound ballistics test has ever duplicated the SBT.
-- Martin Fackler's 1992 SBT wound ballistics test was fraudulent. First of all, not one of Fackler's test bullets passed through a simulated human neck and then destroyed 4-5 inches of rib bone while tearing through a simulated human chest before striking the cadaver radius bones. Not one.
Let me repeat that so the phony nature of Fackler's test can sink in: Fackler made no effort to simulate a human neck, a human chest, and a rib bone. Not one of his bullets hit anything before they hit the cadaver radius bones. Fackler simply shot cadaver radius bones with bullets whose velocity had been lowered to 1100-1300 FPS!
I suspect Fackler rigged the test because he knew full well that if his test bullets first had had to transit a human neck and then tear through a human chest and demolish 4-5 inches of rib bone in the process, the bullets would have emerged markedly deformed, just as they did in the AAT test and in Lattimer's test.
-- In Dr. Joseph Dolce's SBT test for the WC, even 6.5 mm FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformity than CE 399.
-- In the 1967 CBS SBT test, 6.5 mm FMJ bullets that merely passed through a 12-inch gelatin block before hitting cadaver wrists never had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh, and some of them never even managed to exit the wrists. One of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).
-- In the 1992 AAT SBT test, a 6.5 mm FMJ bullet was fired into two gelatin blocks. The second gelatin block contained animal bones to simulate the shattering of a rib bone and the smashing of a wrist bone. The bullet transited the first gelatin block and penetrated deep into the second block and struck the animal bones. It emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.
-- In Lattimer's SBT test, one of the test bullets was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399, and this wasn't even one of the bullets that had struck all three simulation objects. When interviewed by Stewart Galanor, Lattimer admitted that he had thrown away all the bullets that hit all three simulation objects. Gee, I wonder why.
Also, the historic 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated and data-intensive SBT trajectory study ever done, determined the SBT is impossible, finding that JFK's and Connally's wounds do not line up in a trajectory back to the sixth-floor window.
Knott Lab's experts conducted a high-definition laser scan of Dealey Plaza to generate a point cloud of up to 2 million points per second, to accurately measure point-to-point anywhere in the scene. Using a 3D laser scanner (Leica RTC360), Knott Lab's experts did 36 laser scans of Dealey Plaza, producing a digital reconstruction of the plaza that has 851 million data points. No other SBT trajectory analysis has included such a detailed, accurate digital model of the plaza and of JFK's and Connally's positions in the limousine.
From this point cloud (the digital model of the plaza), Knott Lab's forensic engineers were able to match images from the scene and the Zapruder film using photogrammetry. They modeled the presidential limousine using multiple photographs and established the correct dimensions of the vehicle. Through a process called match moving, they synced frames from the Zapruder film into the digital recreation of the scene. The match moving enabled the alignment of the digital models of Kennedy and Connally in the vehicle to establish their positions frame by frame throughout the incident.
It is worth noting that NASA's Thomas Canning, who did the HSCA's trajectory analysis, had to assume that Connally was several inches farther to the left than the photographic evidence shows he was. Canning's trajectory diagram put one-third of Connally's torso between the seats and had Connally's left shoulder more than halfway to Mrs. Connally's seat (see JFK Exhibit F-144). Even after moving Connally so far to the left, Canning had to admit that the trajectory lines of JFK's and Connally's wounds "do not coincide," a problem that Canning attributed to "experimental error."
Moreover, Canning assumed that Connally was hit at Z190. He did so (1) because the Photographic Evidence Panel correctly determined that the first bullet that hit JFK was fired at right around Z188-190, and (2) because he was forced to assume the single-bullet theory was correct.
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Not according to Itek’s analysis, and not according to any measurements taken or the scale drawing provided by Hess and Eisenhardt who built it. The latter shows the right edge of the jump seat 2.5 inches inside the door.
?? I am showing his position at z270. He has moved far to the left. Look at Altgens 6.
Nowhere near 90. It is less than 30 degrees. Put your finger just below your right nipple and turn around like that. The nipple stays in front of the right scapula and moves to the right.
The bullet deflects because JBC felt a significant impact in the back. It hit the fifth rib and pushed it enough to cause a fracture near the spine.
I don't care how you slice it, you have JBC directly in front of JFK, you have the bullet striking JBC in the side instead of the back, the diagonal path of the bullet isn't close to what it actually was, and you have an impossible deflection of the bullet. Your theory is an absolute joke. I would be embarrassed to propose something so ludicrous but that doesn't seem to be a problem for you. I'm starting to think you are just trolling for attention by proposing something that is so obviously false just to get people to respond to you.
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As I've pointed out before, no wound ballistics test has ever duplicated the SBT.
Can you name one shooting in the history of firearms that has been duplicated? If not, there is no point in even addressing the rest of this drivel.
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I don't care how you slice it, you have JBC directly in front of JFK, you have the bullet striking JBC in the side instead of the back, the diagonal path of the bullet isn't close to what it actually was, and you have an impossible deflection of the bullet. Your theory is an absolute joke. I would be embarrassed to propose something so ludicrous but that doesn't seem to be a problem for you. I'm starting to think you are just trolling for attention by proposing something that is so obviously false just to get people to respond to you.
It is not my theory. I am just following the evidence. The evidence is that the first shot struck JFK and the second shot struck JBC in the torso. The evidence is that the second shot occurred closer to shot no. 3 than shot no. 1. and those last two were in rapid succession - not 5 seconds apart. Witnesses who estimated the time said they were about 2 seconds (estimates ranged from 1.5-3 seconds). The evidence is that the head shot was the last shot. The evidence is that there were only three shots and they were distinct separate sounds although there is evidence that the reverberations from shot no. 2 had not fully dissipated before the third shot sounded (Mary Woodward and Ernest Brandt remarked on this).
So, according to the evidence, the first shot occurred after z186 and before z202. The third shot occurred at z312-313. The second shot occurred after the midpoint between 1 and 3. That midpoint is between z250 and z258. I have shown how JBC and JFK were positioned after z254 as in the Altgens 6 photo. They don't appear to have moved significantly between z254 and z271.
My "theory" is that what happened is determined by the evidence, not spidey senses.
As far as the path through JBC is concerned, I have shown you what the wounds show (https://i.postimg.cc/PJ0YZF2f/Angle-of-deflection2.jpg). The fifth rib was pushed inward by the impact which stressed the rib near the spine and caused a fracture there.
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It is not my theory. I am just following the evidence.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, wait. You were being serious.
Isn't it amazing how after 62 years with millions of people investigating the JFKA, only you were able to figure it out.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, wait. You were being serious.
Isn't it amazing how after 62 years with millions of people investigating the JFKA, only you were able to figure it out.
The Secret Service and the Connallys said the SBT was wrong but the WC conclusion was right. That’s all I “figured out”. I am just showing where that places the shots according to all the evidence.
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The Secret Service and the Connallys said the SBT was wrong but the WC conclusion was right. That’s all I “figured out”. I am just showing where that places the shots according to all the evidence.
And you screwed that part up. BADLY!
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And you screwed that part up. BADLY!
Thanks. I thought you were going to say that I screwed it up really well.
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There is also the problem of explaining how the bullet goes from the left side of JFK’s tie knot on a right to left path and strikes JBC in the right armpit but misses JFK’s hands:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncdg36jz/JFK-reaction-224-to-225.gif)Have you actually tried putting a cushion and sitting on it with your feet on the floor and keeping your legs together? Try it. You will see why it is highly unlikely for JBC to have assumed such a position.I have never suggested that the wrist wound is caused by a fragment. It was caused by the bullet that exited from the chest. The bullet fragmented on striking the wrist and fragments deflected away from the point of contact with the radius bone.
All the evidence indicates that the second shot occurred much closer to the third shot, which puts it while JBC is turned around to the right. This gives the general idea of the trajectory:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1QX50Pp/overhead-model-271.jpg)
The bullet exiting his chest at Z270 per your sketch , how could it not have gone thru his hat held in his right hand if there was an exit wound at the base of the palm?
Could you draw another sketch with how you think he’s holding the hat with the right hand?
If the official wrist wound description is correct that the entrance found was top of hand at the wrist and the exit was at the base of the palm then…
The hat had to be held in the right hand upside down so that the upper side of the right hand is hit first and the exit at the base of the palm follows.
So in your sketch for the angle of the shot at Z270, it looks like a hat in the right hand held upside down between both legs would have a bullet ( or fragment ) exiting the palm go thru the well of the hat.
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The bullet exiting his chest at Z270 per your sketch , how could it not have gone thru his hat held in his right hand if there was an exit wound at the base of the palm?
Could you draw another sketch with how you think he’s holding the hat with the right hand?
Do you mean it isn't already ludicrous enough for you?
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The bullet exiting his chest at Z270 per your sketch , how could it not have gone thru his hat held in his right hand if there was an exit wound at the base of the palm?
The brim of the hat is gripped by his fingers. Whatever may have exited on the volar side of the forearm/wrist
located 2 cm above the wrist crease was some distance from the hat brim.
Could you draw another sketch with how you think he’s holding the hat with the right hand?
This is how he held his hat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J13n5V1/zf130.jpg)
If the official wrist wound description is correct that the entrance found was top of hand at the wrist and the exit was at the base of the palm then…
The hat had to be held in the right hand upside down so that the upper side of the right hand is hit first and the exit at the base of the palm follows.
The entrance wound was 5 cm or 2 inches above the wrist crease on the back of the forearm. The hole in the french cuff was an inch above the end of the cuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs2cwJSj/JBC-shirt-cuff.jpg)
The exit wound on the volar side was 2 cm or .8 of an inch above the wrist crease and was a small transverse slit ie. in the same direction as the crease.
There was a slit in the shirt sleeve just above the french cuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDFf1DCv/IMG-2799.jpg)
but it was not a transverse slit and its position does not correspond to the slit in the skin on the volar side of the wrist.
That is a bit odd if the slit in the shirt was caused by something exiting the wrist. If the entrance on the back was an inch above the end of the cuff and the slit in the skin was 1.2 inches lower toward the end of the cuff, whatever caused that transverse slit on the volar side should have missed the end of the cuff by .2 inches or .5 cm.
So in your sketch for the angle of the shot at Z270, it looks like a hat in the right hand held upside down between both legs would have a bullet ( or fragment ) exiting the palm go thru the well of the hat.
You should not make any assumptions about the object that caused the skin break on the volar side. It could have been a bullet fragment or a bone fragment. There were 5 bone fragments found in the wrist. I am not sure it wasn’t possible that a sharp edge of a bone fragment in the wrist penetrated the skin during the 5 minute trip to Parkland as JBC rolled around in the car. The slit in the shirt had to have been caused by something other than an exiting object because it is over 2 inches from the slit in the skin and it is at a right angle to it.
If one draws a line from the exit point on the wrist it looks to me that if something did exit the wrist it would have missed the hat brim and well of the hat.
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Do you mean it isn't already ludicrous enough for you?
IDK why I keep asking questions. It may be akin to visiting a genius in the insane asylum and you ask questions that you think should convince the genius he’s wrong only to be surprised that he’s got another way of looking at the problem.
For example, the answer to my question about the hat position, persuaded the genius to post the Z268 frame which shows JC holding the hat being held by the right hand up near his chest.
The well of the hat is visible which means the right hand must have the palm facing away from the chest if the fingers are overlapping the rim and into the well. ( presuming Andrew agrees with my description of what I’m seeing in this Z268 frame.)
So if Andrew’s agrees with my description then the Z270 bullet exiting thru JCs chest is going to have to go thru the hat well if the bullet EXITS from the base of the palm of the hand.
This may be why Andrew’s last statement seems to me to suggest the bullet did NOT ENTER the wrist bone from the top of the hand and exit from the base of the palm. Rather it did something else that’s not quite like what average IQ people like myself seem to think the official conventional WC stated it did.
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IDK why I keep asking questions. It may be akin to visiting a genius in the insane asylum and you ask questions that you think should convince the genius he’s wrong only to be surprised that he’s got another way of looking at the problem.
For example, the answer to my question about the hat position, persuaded the genius to post the Z268 frame which shows JC holding the hat being held by the right hand up near his chest.
The well of the hat is visible which means the right hand must have the palm facing away from the chest if the fingers are overlapping the rim and into the well. ( presuming Andrew agrees with my description of what I’m seeing in this Z268 frame.)
So if Andrew’s agrees with my description then the Z270 bullet exiting thru JCs chest is going to have to go thru the hat well if the bullet EXITS from the base of the palm of the hand.
This may be why Andrew’s last statement seems to me to suggest the bullet did NOT ENTER the wrist bone from the top of the hand and exit from the base of the palm. Rather it did something else that’s not quite like what average IQ people like myself seem to think the official conventional WC stated it did.
There are so many ludicrous elements to Andrew's scenario that the bullet missing the hat is the least problematic of them.
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This may be why Andrew’s last statement seems to me to suggest the bullet did NOT ENTER the wrist bone from the top of the hand and exit from the base of the palm. Rather it did something else that’s not quite like what average IQ people like myself seem to think the official conventional WC stated it did.
Here is the bullet hole in the front of JBC’s jacket:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yx9CV4kz/JBC-jacket-inside.jpg)
This indicates that the bullet was still intact when exiting the chest.
However, if the evidence of Greer that he sensed an impact sound of something hitting in the car on the second shot and if Tague’s recollection of being struck by a fragment on the second shot are correct, then the bullet must have fragmented on striking the back of the wrist. The jagged and long hole in the back of the french cuff is consistent with irregular shaped fragments deflecting off the back of the wrist.
The bullet fragments created by forceful impact on the radius bone will necessarily deflect away from the point of contact on the radius.
If a still intact bullet struck the back of the wrist and this impact caused the bullet to fragment then all the fragments would have deflected away from the point of contact. That would have been upward and a bit to the left if it struck the wrist around z270. A fragment of bone could have penetrated through the skin on the volar side but not a bullet fragment created by the impact on the radius.
If that occurred, there was no bullet fragment that passed through the wrist. And, therefore, no bullet hole in the hat.
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Here is the bullet hole in the front of JBC’s jacket:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yx9CV4kz/JBC-jacket-inside.jpg)
This indicates that the bullet was still intact when exiting the chest.
However, if the evidence of Greer that he sensed an impact sound of something hitting in the car on the second shot and if Tague’s recollection of being struck by a fragment on the second shot are correct, then the bullet must have fragmented on striking the back of the wrist. The jagged and long hole in the back of the french cuff is consistent with irregular shaped fragments deflecting off the back of the wrist.
The bullet fragments created by forceful impact on the radius bone will necessarily deflect away from the point of contact on the radius.
If a still intact bullet struck the back of the wrist and this impact caused the bullet to fragment then all the fragments would have deflected away from the point of contact. That would have been upward and a bit to the left if it struck the wrist around z270. A fragment of bone could have penetrated through the skin on the volar side but not a bullet fragment created by the impact on the radius.
If that occurred, there was no bullet fragment that passed through the wrist. And, therefore, no bullet hole in the hat.
A whole lot of ifs there. I counted five but I might have missed one or two.
Here's what really happened with no ifs:
CE399 was the second bullet Oswald fired at JFK. It struck high on JFK's back about two inches right of his spine and exited from just below his Adam's apple. It began tumbling as it exited and entered JBC's back near his right armpit traveling almost sideways making an elongated entrance wound. It exited JBC's chest just below his right nipple, taking out a section of rib and continued tumbling. It struck JBC's right wrist traveling almost backward, depositing small lead fragments from lead core which was exposed at the base of the bullet. From there, it made a shallow penetration into JBC's left thigh before working it's way out and was discovered at Parkland Hospital on a gurney.
No if, ands, or buts needed.
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A whole lot of ifs there. I counted five but I might have missed one or two.
Here's what really happened with no ifs:
CE399 was the second bullet Oswald fired at JFK. It struck high on JFK's back about two inches right of his spine and exited from just below his Adam's apple. It began tumbling as it exited and entered JBC's back near his right armpit traveling almost sideways making an elongated entrance wound. It exited JBC's chest just below his right nipple, taking out a section of rib and continued tumbling. It struck JBC's right wrist traveling almost backward, depositing small lead fragments from lead core which was exposed at the base of the bullet. From there, it made a shallow penetration into JBC's left thigh before working it's way out and was discovered at Parkland Hospital on a gurney.
No if, ands, or buts needed.
Seriously? You NOW have this Magic Bullet traveling, "....almost backward"? These are the contortions this bullet is now making? This is right in line with expanding the extended firing time for the 3 shots from 6+ seconds to now 10+ seconds. This "story" continues changing and only getting more and more ludicrous.
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A whole lot of ifs there. I counted five but I might have missed one or two.
You have “ifs” too. You just don’t acknowledge them. You will notice that all my “ifs” relate to evidence being true. All your “ifs relate to evidence being false.
Here's what really happened
…. but with your implicit “ifs” stated:
If the 45+ witnesses for the 1……2…3 shot pattern were wrong and if the 23+ witnesses who said JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but acted like he was hit by it were wrong, and if the 20+ witnesses who put the first shot time after z180 were all wrong and the first shot missed the entire car so that CE399 was the second bullet Oswald fired at JFK, it struck high on JFK's back about two inches right of his spine and exited from just below his Adam's apple.
It began tumbling as it exited and if JBC, sitting in front of JFK, was positioned so that his right armpit was at least 4 inches left of JFK’s midline, it entered JBC's back near his right armpit traveling almost sideways making an elongated entrance wound (if Dr. Shaw was wrong in describing the wound as elliptical in shape and was a small tunnelling wound in the underlying tissue). It exited JBC's chest just below his right nipple, taking out a section of rib and continued tumbling. It struck JBC's right wrist traveling almost backward, depositing small lead fragments from lead core which was exposed at the base of the bullet. From there, if the laws of physics were momentarily suspended and instead of deflecting away from the point of contact with the radius the whole bullet continued through the wrist making a small, initially unnoticed transverse slit in the volar side, it made a shallow penetration into JBC's left thigh before working it's way out and was discovered at Parkland Hospital on a gurney.
No if, ands, or buts needed.
… so long as everyone knows that you are assuming all that evidence to be wrong…
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Seriously? You NOW have this Magic Bullet traveling, "....almost backward"? These are the contortions this bullet is now making? This is right in line with expanding the extended firing time for the 3 shots from 6+ seconds to now 10+ seconds. This "story" continues changing and only getting more and more ludicrous.
Yes, it was traveling backward because that is the only way the lead core could have struck JBC's wrist and deposited the lead fragments there. That is also the only way the base gets flattened as opposed to the nose.
Ballistic gel tests show that a Carcano bullet will start tumbling after exiting from soft tissue which is all CE399 did when it passed through JFK's torso.
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A whole lot of ifs there. I counted five but I might have missed one or two.
Here's what really happened with no ifs:
CE399 was the second bullet Oswald fired at JFK. It struck high on JFK's back about two inches right of his spine and exited from just below his Adam's apple. It began tumbling as it exited and entered JBC's back near his right armpit traveling almost sideways making an elongated entrance wound. It exited JBC's chest just below his right nipple, taking out a section of rib and continued tumbling. It struck JBC's right wrist traveling almost backward, depositing small lead fragments from lead core which was exposed at the base of the bullet. From there, it made a shallow penetration into JBC's left thigh before working it's way out and was discovered at Parkland Hospital on a gurney.
No if, ands, or buts needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yx9CV4kz/JBC-jacket-inside.jpg)
How could the bullet "tumbling" [ ::)] and leave such a small hole in JBC's jacket?
This small hole is indicative of a non-rotating bullet.
If the bullet was rotating, how could it enter both his wrist and his leg backwards?
Why is there zero evidence of a bullet hole in JBC's wristbone? The bone shattered but there was no hole through which a bullet could pass, rotating or not.
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You have “ifs” too. You just don’t acknowledge them. You will notice that all my “ifs” relate to evidence being true. All your “ifs relate to evidence being false.…. but with your implicit “ifs” stated:
If the 45+ witnesses for the 1……2…3 shot pattern were wrong and if the 23+ witnesses who said JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but acted like he was hit by it were wrong, and if the 20+ witnesses who put the first shot time after z180 were all wrong and the first shot missed the entire car so that CE399 was the second bullet Oswald fired at JFK, it struck high on JFK's back about two inches right of his spine and exited from just below his Adam's apple.
That isn't an "if".
It began tumbling as it exited and if JBC, sitting in front of JFK, was positioned so that his right armpit was at least 4 inches left of JFK’s midline, it entered JBC's back near his right armpit traveling almost sideways making an elongated entrance wound (if Dr. Shaw was wrong in describing the wound as elliptical in shape and was a small tunnelling wound in the underlying tissue). It exited JBC's chest just below his right nipple, taking out a section of rib and continued tumbling. It struck JBC's right wrist traveling almost backward, depositing small lead fragments from lead core which was exposed at the base of the bullet. From there, if the laws of physics were momentarily suspended and instead of deflecting away from the point of contact with the radius the whole bullet continued through the wrist making a small, initially unnoticed transverse slit in the volar side, it made a shallow penetration into JBC's left thigh before working it's way out and was discovered at Parkland Hospital on a gurney.
… so long as everyone knows that you are assuming all that evidence to be wrong…
None of the above "ifs" are mine. You inserted them.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/yx9CV4kz/JBC-jacket-inside.jpg)
How could the bullet "tumbling" [ ::)] and leave such a small hole in JBC's jacket?
This small hole is indicative of a non-rotating bullet.
Or a bullet that had tumbled 180 degrees.
If the bullet was rotating, how could it enter both his wrist and his leg backwards?
Striking the wrist bone could affect the rotation of the bullet.
Why is there zero evidence of a bullet hole in JBC's wristbone? The bone shattered but there was no hole through which a bullet could pass, rotating or not.
When did I say the bullet went through the wrist bone?
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Yes, it was traveling backward because that is the only way the lead core could have struck JBC's wrist and deposited the lead fragments there. That is also the only way the base gets flattened as opposed to the nose.
Ballistic gel tests show that a Carcano bullet will start tumbling after exiting from soft tissue which is all CE399 did when it passed through JFK's torso.
A "Pristine" bullet breaking bones and traveling backward? :D That only happens in the "Looney Tunes". And this in the face of SA Landis finding a bullet in the BACK Seat area of the JFK Limo, which would tie to the shallow JFK BACK Wound?
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A "Pristine" bullet breaking bones and traveling backward? :D That only happens in the "Looney Tunes". And this in the face of SA Landis finding a bullet in the BACK Seat area of the JFK Limo, which would tie to the shallow JFK BACK Wound?
The Haag team used sophisticated experiments to show that a Carcano bullet will tumble when exiting soft tissue. You can ignore that if you choose but that doesn't change the fact.
Landis' statement is highly dubious given that there is no record of him saying that during the first six decades following the assassination. Picking up such an important piece of evidence and then just casually setting it down would have been an incredibly stupid thing for him to have done. This screams "false memory" which is a documented phenomenon
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That isn't an "if".
Funny how the WC thought it was.
None of the above "ifs" are mine. You inserted them.
That’s right. You refuse to acknowledge even a possibility that 85+ witnesses might have actually observed what they said they observed.
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Or a bullet that had tumbled 180 degrees.
Striking the wrist bone could affect the rotation of the bullet.
When did I say the bullet went through the wrist bone?
Ok. So in what non-Newtonian universe does an object impact something hard, not penetrate it, and continue around it rather than deflecting away from it?
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Ok. So in what non-Newtonian universe does an object impact something hard, not penetrate it, and continue around it rather than deflecting away from it?
I love strawman arguments, When did I say the bullet didn't deflect?
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The Haag team used sophisticated experiments to show that a Carcano bullet will tumble when exiting soft tissue. You can ignore that if you choose but that doesn't change the fact.
Landis' statement is highly dubious given that there is no record of him saying that during the first six decades following the assassination. Picking up such an important piece of evidence and then just casually setting it down would have been an incredibly stupid thing for him to have done. This screams "false memory" which is a documented phenomenon
Knott Lab put the SBT to bed with FORENSIC SCIENCE that is routinely admitted in courts across this country. "Hagg team" and "experiments"? :D
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[...]
There are oodles and gobs of doubts, but there are no rational doubts for the simple reason that they all have plausible explanations.
To think otherwise is to accept the ludicrous idea that oodles and gobs of evil, evil, bad guys planned the assassination, "patsied" the "patsy," planted the evidence, did the shooting, pulled off the getaway, and are STILL covering it all up after 60-plus years.
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Or a bullet that had tumbled 180 degrees.
:D :D
Royell has hit the nail on the head about your Looney Tunes grasp of reality.
You are clearly unaware that you are suggesting the bullet tumbled 180 degrees, straightened up while it passed through his jacket, then resumed a-tumbling.
It is physically impossible for a bullet rotating at such an incredible speed to make such a small hole in his jacket.
In your cartoonish view of the world the bullet exits JBC's chest backwards.
It must then tumble a further 360 degrees in order to enter his wrist (and leg) backwards.
The distance it has to travel is around 12 inches/1 foot.
Let's say the bullet exiting Connally's chest is travelling around 1000 feet per second [Sturdivan estimated "somewhere between 1,100 and 1,300 feet per second, roughly."]
This means the bullet is spinning 1000 times per second!!!
1] Where does this incredible rotational energy come from?
2] How can a 3 cm object spinning 1000 times per second leave such a small hole?
3] What nonsense are you going to come up with next?
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Knott Lab put the SBT to bed with FORENSIC SCIENCE that is routinely admitted in courts across this country. "Hagg team" and "experiments"? :D
Whether it comes from Knott Laboratory or you average CT, every time I see somebody saying the SBT is an impossibility, I almost never see an explanation of why it is impossible. It's as if the CTs think it suffices to say it's impossible. I tried to google Knott Laboratory's explanation and this is all I could find:
“The shooting position, bullet exit point on President Kennedy, and entry point on Governor Connally should all be reasonably in line. When drawing this line from the sixth floor perch of the Texas Book Depository to the positions of the two men and their entry/exit points, we found a significant angle difference. This case is ongoing, but evidence strongly suggests there is more to the story in this historic event. Modern science refutes the Warren Commission’s findings on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.”
It seems to me if they really did a detailed analysis on par with what Dale Myers has done, they should have been able to come up with something a little better than the wounds didn't line up. Myers computer animation showed the wounds lining up perfectly. In the later 1980s another company, Failure Analysis using less sophisticated technology than what would become available in the coming decades. also showed the wounds line up.
Knott Laboratory's work was paid for by dedicated CT John Orr. Could it be they had a vested interrest in coming up with the conclusion they did? Just asking.
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[delete
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I will admit that these sorts of discussions make my eyes glaze over. FWIW, Orr was not satisfied with the Knott Lab effort. Larry Schnapf said at the Ed Forum in January that an improved analysis by "Orr's team" would be ready in a month and provided to the Luna Committee. I've seen nothing further on that. Here is what Larry said in January:
John Orr's team is finalizing an improved 3D animation which is superior to the version that Knott Labs used. It will be ready by the end of the month and will be shown to representative Luna.
The criticisms of the knott Lab work product are not meritorious. The trajectory analysis was based on the positions of JBC and JFK at two precise moments in time. It is far more accurate than Myers' cartoon which misrpresented the spatial positioning of the bodies, the relative sizes of the two men as well as the limo configuraiton. Myers' cartoon was designed to support the SBT. It is not an objective analysis. Orr's 3D model is the most accurate recreation to date.
Orr's model uses modern photogrammtery to incorporate all extent photos, precise measurements of the limo and used drone technology to scan DP even taking into account the roadway was paved several times since the assassination. John Orr has used his model test the SBT but the model can be used to test ANY trajectory. Someone just has to be willing to pay for the work to develop the trajectory. the model has all the necessary data.
Also FWIW, some of the photos on this thread are from this Texas Investigates site, which has superb photos of JBC's clothing: https://www.tsl.texas.gov/sites/default/files/public/tslac/landing/documents/jfk-damaged-clothing18.pdf
EDIT: Larry discusses the status of Orr's work on this active thread at the Ed Forum: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/32088-lone-nut-proponents-failure-to-reckon-with-alvarez-fraud/page/25/#comment-595616
Larry says he is frustrated that the work is taking so long and that they missed the Luna deadline.
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Here is the Knott work: https://knottlab.com/cases/knott-lab-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
I haven't seen any sort of detailed written report, probably because it was privately commissioned by Orr.
Larry Schnapf said Knott focused only on the viability of the SBT, not on possible alternative trajectories.
He also said Orr's current study takes into account details at the level of the softness of the seats, the fact that Elm has been repaved three times, etc.
As Larry noted, even 1/4" one way or the other is critical to this kind of reconstruction - which is why, it seems to me, the debate will never end; no one will ever achieve that level of precision.
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I love strawman arguments, When did I say the bullet didn't deflect?
The bullet is moving downward and forward when it strikes the radius.The point of contact is on the dorsal surface of the radius bone breaking at least five pieces off the right side of the radius. If it continues past the radius, passing between the radius and ulna, and exits palm side, it does not deflect away from the point of contact.
If it deflects away from the point of contact it will deflect up and away from the dorsal side of the radius.
To get to the left thigh it would have to deflect down and somewhat to the left.after leaving the arm. What causes that deflection?
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:D :D
Royell has hit the nail on the head about your Looney Tunes grasp of reality.
You are clearly unaware that you are suggesting the bullet tumbled 180 degrees, straightened up while it passed through his jacket, then resumed a-tumbling.
It is physically impossible for a bullet rotating at such an incredible speed to make such a small hole in his jacket.
In your cartoonish view of the world the bullet exits JBC's chest backwards.
It must then tumble a further 360 degrees in order to enter his wrist (and leg) backwards.
The distance it has to travel is around 12 inches/1 foot.
Let's say the bullet exiting Connally's chest is travelling around 1000 feet per second [Sturdivan estimated "somewhere between 1,100 and 1,300 feet per second, roughly."]
This means the bullet is spinning 1000 times per second!!!
1] Where does this incredible rotational energy come from?
2] How can a 3 cm object spinning 1000 times per second leave such a small hole?
3] What nonsense are you going to come up with next?
Bumped for Corbett.
I see a deleted post from you, was this some half-assed attempt at a response to my post.
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Bumped for Corbett.
I see a deleted post from you, was this some half-assed attempt at a response to my post.
I don't know how to dumb this down for you any more than I have. Even the picture Steve Galbrath posted for you didn't seem to help. It's impossible to say precisely what the orientation of the bullet was at any given instant but we can make reasonable estimates. The smaller hole in the front of JBC's jacket suggests it had continued to tumble after entering his back in a near perpendicular orientation. Whether it had tumbled 150, 180, 210 degrees or somewhere in between is impossible to say. What we do know is the base was flattened from the side. That indicates the base received the brunt of the blow when the bullet struck bone which is evidence the bullet was tumbling. Further evidence is that lead fragments were deposited in JBC's wrist and thigh. That came from the lead core which was only exposed at the bottom of the bullet.
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That has always been an interesting aspect of Gov. John Connally's wounds: His two surgeons thought the SBT did not hold water.
Dr. Robert Shaw and Dr. Charles Gregory were not activists or leftists, and Shaw had military experience of working on hundreds of wartime gunshot victims. Shaw, without dispute, is an authority on the topic.
My take is Shaw and Gregory gave their earnest opinions and had no axes to grind.
Gregory found that a projectile had entered JBC's wrist on the dorsal side...almost an anatomical impossibility for a slug that first entered JBC's chest from the rear.
Shaw thought it most likely JBC had been hit by a separate shot, that shot had not been impeded before hitting JBC.
The small round hole in the rear of JBC's assassination day shirt strongly suggests a direct shot, and not a slug that hit JBC "sideways" after tumbling.
There are a lot of reasons to have reasonable doubts about SBT, including that it was fabricated by Arlen Specter based on the premise that only two shots had struck JFK and JBC. Specter's job was to present the SBT-LNT narrative, not to investigate the truth. The WC concluded that one shot struck near Tague.
That CE-399 was not found in Trauma Room 2 adds another layer of perplexity. Even then hospital procedures were to retain bullets and report bullet wounds to police. JBC recalls the bullet fell from his leg on clicked on the floor of Trauma Room 2.
Yet somehow a slug is found in the Parkland hospital corridor, described as a "pointy-head" slug by OP Wright, hospital administrator and former police chief, and then that slug is purported to be CE-399.
I have reasonable doubts about the LNT-SBT.
Take away CE399 and there is no issue with the SBT.
The only reason Shaw and Gregory doubted it was because they were trying to account for CE399 as the bullet involved.
Both JFK and JBC getting shot through by a single bullet fired from the SN is to be fully expected given that it passed through nothing but soft tissue until striking JBC's ribs.
As you point out, the bullet (fragment?) in JBC's leg fell onto the Trauma Room floor and was picked up by a nurse. Henry Wade, visiting his good friend at the time, reports the nurse coming up to him and asking him what to do with the bullet. He told her to give it to a policeman. She put it in an envelope and gave it to officer Bob Nolan who eventually put it on Fritz's desk.
While all this was going on, Audrey Bell was placing the small bullet fragments retrieved from JBC's wrist into a small plastic box and envelope when two FBI agents came in and confiscated the fragments. Miraculously, while it was in the FBI's Washington Labs, the bullet left on Fritz's desk by Nolan morphed into the small bullet fragments taken from JBC's wrist. The same miracle morphed the pointed "hunting slug" found by Tomlinson into CE399, also in the Washington Labs.
Hmmmm...
The bullet that passed through JFK and JBC at z222/223 fragmented when it struck JBC's radius.
This accounts for the various holes in the clothing and why there is no hole for a bullet to pass through in the X-Rays of JBC's wrist. It explains why there is no metal fragments from this bullet found in JFK or JBC until the wrist then leg.
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Take away CE399 and there is no issue with the SBT.
The only reason Shaw and Gregory doubted it was because they were trying to account for CE399 as the bullet involved.
Both JFK and JBC getting shot through by a single bullet fired from the SN is to be fully expected given that it passed through nothing but soft tissue until striking JBC's ribs.
As you point out, the bullet (fragment?) in JBC's leg fell onto the Trauma Room floor and was picked up by a nurse. Henry Wade, visiting his good friend at the time, reports the nurse coming up to him and asking him what to do with the bullet. He told her to give it to a policeman. She put it in an envelope and gave it to officer Bob Nolan who eventually put it on Fritz's desk.
While all this was going on, Audrey Bell was placing the small bullet fragments retrieved from JBC's wrist into a small plastic box and envelope when two FBI agents came in and confiscated the fragments. Miraculously, while it was in the FBI's Washington Labs, the bullet left on Fritz's desk by Nolan morphed into the small bullet fragments taken from JBC's wrist. The same miracle morphed the pointed "hunting slug" found by Tomlinson into CE399, also in the Washington Labs.
Hmmmm...
The bullet that passed through JFK and JBC at z222/223 fragmented when it struck JBC's radius.
This accounts for the various holes in the clothing and why there is no hole for a bullet to pass through in the X-Rays of JBC's wrist. It explains why there is no metal fragments from this bullet found in JFK or JBC until the wrist then leg.
DAN - As always, your opinions carry weight due to being based on your tireless JFK Assassination Research. Your Bart Kamp/Prayer Man work is noteworthy. Please come by more often. You always raise the bar around here.
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Dr. Charles Gregory, the Parkland surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, provided important information on the wounding of Governor Connally in his interview with Dr. Josiah Thompson, Richard Billings, and Ed Kern. After reviewing high-quality enlargements of the relevant Zapruder frames, Dr. Gregory said that Connally must have been hit no earlier than Z234 based on his Z238-242 reactions, that he and Dr. Robert Shaw (Connally's chest surgeon) concluded that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets, and that both he and Dr. Shaw concluded that Connally's back wound indicated the bullet had not hit anything else beforehand. Dr. Thompson discusses this crucial information in his 2021 book Last Second in Dallas:
I was already in Dr. Gregory’s office and talking with him when they arrived. I had made photocopies of his deposition, and Kern and Billings had brought with them the four-by-five-inch Ektachrome transparencies from the Zapruder film. I did most of the questioning, and Kern and Billings showed the transparencies on a light table.
After the transparencies were laid out, I asked Dr. Gregory to look closely at what happens between frames 237 and 238, three-quarters of a second after the president has clearly been hit. We moved the other transparencies aside and looked closely at 237 through 240. In this series of frames Governor Connally is turning in his seat to the right. This means that the angle between his right shoulder and the car door gets smaller over time. Then, quite suddenly, it reverses direction and gets larger. What brings about this change in angle is the collapse of Connally’s right shoulder. But that is not all. In frames 238, 239, and 240, Connally’s cheeks puff out and his hair is disordered.
I pointed this out to Dr. Gregory and asked his opinion about what caused it. He explained that the epiglottis is like a trapdoor at the top of the windpipe. A shot through the chest such as Connally received would shock the chest wall and force air upward through the epiglottis. Since it couldn’t all escape from his mouth immediately, it would puff out his cheeks. The three effects we were seeing, Gregory said, were the effects of a bullet driving through the chest.
I asked him what was the maximum time before frame 238 when the bullet could have hit Connally. He thought for a moment and then replied, “A quarter of a second. Maybe 234 at the earliest.” This was generally in line with his testimony before the commission, where he said that “in frames marked 234, 235 and 236, Governor Connally was in a position such that a single missile . . . could have passed through his chest.” Obviously, this was much too late for Connally to have been hit by the same bullet that hit Kennedy. . . .
But there was more.
We mentioned to Dr. Gregory that we had looked forward to talking with Dr. Shaw but that he was unavailable. Dr. Gregory said he and Shaw had talked about the wounding of Connally, and both believed that Connally and Kennedy had been hit by separate shots. Why? Because of the character of Connally’s back wound, Gregory explained. It was small and elliptical in shape. But most importantly, it had very clean edges. No fibers had been carried into Connally’s back wound, while his wrist wound was fouled with numerous fibers from his wool suit.
Dr. Gregory pointed out that he’d been a field surgeon during the Korean War and later had made a study of gunshot injuries, examining more than five hundred gunshot wounds. It was his opinion, supported by Dr. Shaw, that the small, clean and elliptical wound in Connally’s back had come from a projectile that had hit nothing else first. (Last Second in Dallas, pp. 157-158)
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Dr. Gregory pointed out that he’d been a field surgeon during the Korean War and later had made a study of gunshot injuries, examining more than five hundred gunshot wounds. It was his opinion, supported by Dr. Shaw, that the small, clean and elliptical wound in Connally’s back had come from a projectile that had hit nothing else first. (Last Second in Dallas, pp. 157-158)[/font]
As usual, the people you cite don't say why they reached their conclusion.
Does Gregory say why he thinks the wound on JBC's back was elliptical?
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As usual, the people you cite don't say why they reached their conclusion.
HUH? Did you miss the statements below in the passages I quoted about Dr. Gregory's interview, or did you just not understand them? Let's read them again:
We mentioned to Dr. Gregory that we had looked forward to talking with Dr. Shaw but that he was unavailable. Dr. Gregory said he and Shaw had talked about the wounding of Connally, and both believed that Connally and Kennedy had been hit by separate shots. Why? Because of the character of Connally’s back wound, Gregory explained. It was small and elliptical in shape. But most importantly, it had very clean edges. No fibers had been carried into Connally’s back wound, while his wrist wound was fouled with numerous fibers from his wool suit.
Do you understand now? The projectile that hit Connally's wrist carried with it numerous fibers from his wool suit into the wrist wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it. If the bullet that hit Connally's back had just torn through four layers of JFK's clothing, it would have carried fibers from that clothing into Connally's back wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it.
This is one of the reasons that both Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw concluded that the bullet that hit Connally's back had not hit anything else first.
Does Gregory say why he thinks the wound on JBC's back was elliptical?
Seriously? I'm sure Dr. Gregory didn't think that years later someone who doesn't even know the basics about the wounds in the case would question why he said the wound was elliptical.
He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical. Dr. Shaw, the guy who operated on it, said it was elliptical: "The wound entrance was an elliptical wound" (6 H 95).
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HUH? Did you miss the statements below in the passages I quoted about Dr. Gregory's interview, or did you just not understand them? Let's read them again:
We mentioned to Dr. Gregory that we had looked forward to talking with Dr. Shaw but that he was unavailable. Dr. Gregory said he and Shaw had talked about the wounding of Connally, and both believed that Connally and Kennedy had been hit by separate shots. Why? Because of the character of Connally’s back wound, Gregory explained. It was small and elliptical in shape. But most importantly, it had very clean edges. No fibers had been carried into Connally’s back wound, while his wrist wound was fouled with numerous fibers from his wool suit.
Do you understand now? The projectile that hit Connally's wrist carried with it numerous fibers from his wool suit into the wrist wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it. If the bullet that hit Connally's back had just torn through four layers of JFK's clothing, it would have carried fibers from that clothing into Connally's back wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it.
This is one of the reasons that both Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw concluded that the bullet that hit Connally's back had not hit anything else first.
Seriously? I'm sure Dr. Gregory didn't think that years later someone who doesn't even know the basics about the wounds in the case would question why he said the wound was elliptical.
He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical. Dr. Shaw, the guy who operated on it, said it was elliptical: "The wound entrance was an elliptical wound" (6 H 95).
It was elliptical because it was elliptical??? Is that supposed to be an answer. If ever there was a case of circular logic, this was it. I would bet a forensic pathologist would come to a very different conclusion about the elliptical wound. In fact the FPP panel did reach a very different conclusion. With one dissent, the panel concluded that the bullet that hit JBC in the back had first passed through JFK's torso.
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It was elliptical because it was elliptical??? Is that supposed to be an answer. If ever there was a case of circular logic, this was it.
What in the world? I will charitably assume you must have a reading problem. I pointed out that Dr. Shaw, who operated on the wound, said it was elliptical, and then I quoted him saying it was elliptical. Let me quote him again:
The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. (6 H 95)
And, to repeat, he's the guy who operated on the wound. He also explained that he debrided the wound elliptically, around its edges.
You know the wound measured 1.5 x 0.8 cm, right? You know this, right? That's almost identical in size to JFK's rear head entry wound--1.5 x 0.6 cm--yet no one has ever floated the theory that the head-shot bullet was markedly tumbling when it struck.
For newcomers who haven't read the whole thread, I should add that Dr. Shaw also pointed out that Connally's back-wound bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149), and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116), which debunks the idea that the bullet was markedly tumbling--either when it hit or when it tore through Connally.
BTW, Dr. Shaw was an experienced thoracic surgeon who had operated on over 1,000 gunshot cases, so he had vast experience with bullet wounds. (Ah, but John Corbett says, "That doesn't matter! He wasn't a forensic pathologist!")
I would bet a forensic pathologist would come to a very different conclusion about the elliptical wound.
Then you'd better quit gambling. Let's see:
Dr. Robert Kirschner, a forensic pathologist and one of the ARRB's three forensic experts, said the the SBT was "very dubious."
Dr. William F. Enos, the forensic pathologist who supervised CBS's SBT wound ballistics test, said the SBT was "highly improbable."
Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the foremost forensic pathologists of the 20th century, said the SBT was impossible, that not even an FMJ bullet could do all the damage claimed for it and emerge with its lands and grooves intact and with such a tiny loss of its substance.
Dr. Joseph Nichols, a professor of pathology at the University of Kansas who trained forensic pathologists, who had numerous articles on pathology published in peer-reviewed medical journals, and who was also a court-certified expert witness in forensic pathology, said the SBT was impossible for a number of reasons: the conflicting angles through JFK and Connally, CE 399's virtually undamaged condition; the lack of an unobstructed path from either of the proposed entry sites to JFK's throat wound; among other reasons.
Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the leading forensic pathologists of the 20th and 21st century, initially accepted the SBT but later changed his mind after studying the SBT more closely with medical scientist Russell Kent.
In fact the FPP panel did reach a very different conclusion. With one dissent, the panel concluded that the bullet that hit JBC in the back had first passed through JFK's torso.
LOL! Oh, so NOW you're back to citing the FPP majority! Pure comedy. And this after you just recently claimed that you "don't have to explain" the FPP's finding that the brain photos, if authentic, categorically rule out the EOP site; their finding that the skull x-rays do not show the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report; their finding that the only fragment trail on the skull x-rays is the high fragment trail with its cluster of numerous tiny fragments in the right-frontal region; and their finding that JFK's back-wound bullet entered and tunneled at an upward angle--a fact that they could only explain by bogusly assuming JFK was leaning over 50 degrees forward when the bullet hit!
If you would ever bother to actually read the FPP's report, you would discover that the FPP majority made no effort to explain the fact that the projectile that hit Connally's wrist deposited fibers in the wound but that the bullet that hit Connally's back deposited zero fibers, even though it had supposedly torn through four layers of JFK's clothing and two layers of Connally's clothing. The FPP majority also made no effort to explain how the alleged magic bullet could have nicked the top surface of the tie knot inward from the left edge while making no hole through the tie knot nor through any other part of the tie.
And, as mentioned, the only way the FPP majority could explain the JFK back-wound bullet's upward impact angle and upward tunneling was by making the demonstrably false assumption that Kennedy was leaning forward by over 50 degrees.
We have known for decades now that there was no hole through JFK's tie and that the nick on the knot was not on the edge of the knot. In fact, in an effort to create the false impression that a bullet passed through the tie knot, the FBI made an evidence photo of the knot with the knot twisted in such a way that the nick appeared to be in the middle of the knot. When Harold Weisberg, through years of FOIA suits, finally gained access to high-quality photos of the tie, he discovered there was no hole through the tie, a fact that the HSCA later quietly admitted.
Yet, SBT believers continue to ignore this hard physical evidence and still peddle their debunked theory. You guys are like Flat Earthers who ignore satellite images of the Earth and continue to insist the globe is flat.
JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing
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What in the world? I will charitably assume you must have a reading problem. I pointed out that Dr. Shaw, who operated on the wound, said it was elliptical, and then I quoted him saying it was elliptical. Let me quote him again:
The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. (6 H 95)
I don't have a reading problem. You have a memory problem and now you are flat out lying about what you wrote in your previous post. I'm going to do a COPY and PASTE to make sure I quote you verbatim, and then I'm going to jam it up your nose. You wrote:
"He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical."
And then you turn around and tell me I have a reading problem. Maybe you should use the modify function to go back and erase what you originally wrote and maybe you can fool people into believing you didn't actually write what I quoted you saying.
Nothing makes me laugh more than when you step in it like this.
And, to repeat, he's the guy who operated on the wound. He also explained that he debrided the wound elliptically, around its edges.
You know the wound measured 1.5 x 0.8 cm, right? You know this, right? That's almost identical in size to JFK's rear head entry wound--1.5 x 0.6 cm--yet no one has ever floated the theory that the head-shot bullet was markedly tumbling when it struck.
No one is disputing the entry wound was elliptical. The question is why was it elliptical. Because of your clumsy attempt to quote Shaw out of context, we don't really know what he said. I'm sure he didn't say something as dumb as what you attributed to him. "He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical.". That is hilarious.
For newcomers who haven't read the whole thread, I should add that Dr. Shaw also pointed out that Connally's back-wound bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149), and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116), which debunks the idea that the bullet was markedly tumbling--either when it hit or when it tore through Connally.
The scar on JBC's back was 1 1/8" by 3/8". The exit wound was incorporated in the surgical scar so the HSCA could not measure that. The hole in his jacket was smaller than the entry wound. 3/8" by 5/8", a little more than half the length of the entry scar.. Sounds to me like it was tumbling.
BTW, Dr. Shaw was an experienced thoracic surgeon who had operated on over 1,000 gunshot cases, so he had vast experience with bullet wounds. (Ah, but John Corbett says, "That doesn't matter! He wasn't a forensic pathologist!")
Then you'd better quit gambling. Let's see:
Dr. Robert Kirschner, a forensic pathologist and one of the ARRB's three forensic experts, said the the SBT was "very dubious."
Dr. William F. Enos, the forensic pathologist who supervised CBS's SBT wound ballistics test, said the SBT was "highly improbable."
Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the foremost forensic pathologists of the 20th century, said the SBT was impossible, that not even an FMJ bullet could do all the damage claimed for it and emerge with its lands and grooves intact and with such a tiny loss of its substance.
Dr. Joseph Nichols, a professor of pathology at the University of Kansas who trained forensic pathologists, who had numerous articles on pathology published in peer-reviewed medical journals, and who was also a court-certified expert witness in forensic pathology, said the SBT was impossible for a number of reasons: the conflicting angles through JFK and Connally, CE 399's virtually undamaged condition; the lack of an unobstructed path from either of the proposed entry sites to JFK's throat wound; among other reasons.
Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the leading forensic pathologists of the 20th and 21st century, initially accepted the SBT but later changed his mind after studying the SBT more closely with medical scientist Russell Kent.
Why is it you can cite all these medical examiners but you can never quote them saying why they thought the SBT was impossible, dubious, or unlikely? Either they didn't give a reason or they did and what they said isn't quite what you have claimed they said. Based on your past history, either seems plausible to me.
BTW, all members of the FPP except Wecht agreed with the SBT and they saw the original autopsy materials.
LOL! Oh, so NOW you're back to citing the FPP majority! Pure comedy. And this after you just recently claimed that you "don't have to explain" the FPP's finding that the brain photos, if authentic, categorically rule out the EOP site; their finding that the skull x-rays do not show the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report; their finding that the only fragment trail on the skull x-rays is the high fragment trail with its cluster of numerous tiny fragments in the right-frontal region; and their finding that JFK's back-wound bullet entered and tunneled at an upward angle--a fact that they could only explain by bogusly assuming JFK was leaning over 50 degrees forward when the bullet hit!
So it's OK for you to cite forensic examiners who never saw the original autopsy evidence and then you chastise me for citing a panel of forensic examiners who did.
If you would ever bother to actually read the FPP's report, you would discover that the FPP majority made no effort to explain the fact that the projectile that hit Connally's wrist deposited fibers in the wound but that the bullet that hit Connally's back deposited zero fibers, even though it had supposedly torn through four layers of JFK's clothing and two layers of Connally's clothing.
So what is your point. Are you trying to say the bullet that entered JBC's back didn't first go through his shirt and jacket?
The FPP majority also made no effort to explain how the alleged magic bullet could have nicked the top surface of the tie knot inward from the left edge while making no hole through the tie knot nor through any other part of the tie.
They apparently thought no one would be anal enough to think that mattered.
And, as mentioned, the only way the FPP majority could explain the JFK back-wound bullet's upward impact angle and upward tunneling was by making the demonstrably false assumption that Kennedy was leaning forward by over 50 degrees.
We've been over this before. It is absurd to argue the shot that entered his back was fired from below him. As I recall, you tried to argue this was evidence the shot came from the Dal-Tex. You never bothered to explain why a bullet could enter his back on that angle from the Dal-Tex but not from the TSBD.
We have known for decades now that there was no hole through JFK's tie and that the nick on the knot was not on the edge of the knot. In fact, in an effort to create the false impression that a bullet passed through the tie knot, the FBI made an evidence photo of the knot with the knot twisted in such a way that the nick appeared to be in the middle of the knot. When Harold Weisberg, through years of FOIA suits, finally gained access to high-quality photos of the tie, he discovered there was no hole through the tie, a fact that the HSCA later quietly admitted.
What difference does it make if the bullet went through the knot, just nicked it, or missed it completely? It came out his throat and went on to go through JBC.
Yet, SBT believers continue to ignore this hard physical evidence and still peddle their debunked theory. You guys are like Flat Earthers who ignore satellite images of the Earth and continue to insist the globe is flat.
The SBT has never been debunked. It remains the only plausible explanation for the two men's wounds that is consistent with the body of evidence. If you dispute that, give us an alternative scenario that explains the wounds. The WC told us where the shot was fired from, the wounds it caused, and where the bullet ended up. It would be nice if your explanation could do the same if by any chance it ever sees the light of day.
JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing
It does no such thing. That's just CT FUBAR figuring.
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MTG--
Do you understand now? The projectile that hit Connally's wrist carried with it numerous fibers from his wool suit into the wrist wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it. If the bullet that hit Connally's back had just torn through four layers of JFK's clothing, it would have carried fibers from that clothing into Connally's back wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it.
This is one of the reasons that both Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw concluded that the bullet that hit Connally's back had not hit anything else first. ---MTG
This is interesting, and another reason to be skeptical of the LNT-SBT theories.
The record shows Drs. Gregory and Shaw were skeptical of the SBT. Shaw must be regarded as extremely intelligent and experienced, and hands-on participant viewing and treating JBC's wounds. No mere theoretician, or JFKA hobbyist.
I am skeptical of SBT-LNT. I have reasonable doubts.
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The nose of CE 399 bullet was not even scratched. The nose remained perfectly round , no deformation whatsoever. It’s a miracle bullet it seems. Especially where it was found( was it the limo, or the stretcher, or did fell out on the floor?)and later changed its appearance from pointed to ball nosed.
The imaginative solution for the nose not being even scratched is because it was spinning end over end as it struck into John Connallys right hand wrist bone backwards! (That way only some lead flakes get embedded in the hand ::) then it continued to cut thru the hand apparently like a small circular saw would. And even doing that the nose of the bullet remained perfectly round without even a slight knick or dent. ???
So I’m reasonably in doubt about the SBT too.
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The nose of CE 399 bullet was not even scratched. The nose remained perfectly round , no deformation whatsoever. It’s a miracle bullet it seems. Especially where it was found( was it the limo, or the stretcher, or did fell out on the floor?)and later changed its appearance from pointed to ball nosed.
The imaginative solution for the nose not being even scratched is because it was spinning end over end as it struck into John Connallys right hand wrist bone backwards! (That way only some lead flakes get embedded in the hand ::) then it continued to cut thru the hand apparently like a small circular saw would. And even doing that the nose of the bullet remained perfectly round without even a slight knick or dent. ???
So I’m reasonably in doubt about the SBT too.
The nose of the bullet was not damaged because the nose of the bullet didn't hit anything hard. FMJ bullets are designed not to deform when striking soft tissue. Why would anyone expect the nose of CE399 to be damaged?
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What in the world? I will charitably assume you must have a reading problem. I pointed out that Dr. Shaw, who operated on the wound, said it was elliptical, and then I quoted him saying it was elliptical. Let me quote him again:
The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. (6 H 95)
And, to repeat, he's the guy who operated on the wound. He also explained that he debrided the wound elliptically, around its edges.
You know the wound measured 1.5 x 0.8 cm, right? You know this, right? That's almost identical in size to JFK's rear head entry wound--1.5 x 0.6 cm--yet no one has ever floated the theory that the head-shot bullet was markedly tumbling when it struck.
For newcomers who haven't read the whole thread, I should add that Dr. Shaw also pointed out that Connally's back-wound bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149), and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116), which debunks the idea that the bullet was markedly tumbling--either when it hit or when it tore through Connally.
BTW, Dr. Shaw was an experienced thoracic surgeon who had operated on over 1,000 gunshot cases, so he had vast experience with bullet wounds. (Ah, but John Corbett says, "That doesn't matter! He wasn't a forensic pathologist!")
Then you'd better quit gambling. Let's see:
Dr. Robert Kirschner, a forensic pathologist and one of the ARRB's three forensic experts, said the the SBT was "very dubious."
Dr. William F. Enos, the forensic pathologist who supervised CBS's SBT wound ballistics test, said the SBT was "highly improbable."
Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the foremost forensic pathologists of the 20th century, said the SBT was impossible, that not even an FMJ bullet could do all the damage claimed for it and emerge with its lands and grooves intact and with such a tiny loss of its substance.
Dr. Joseph Nichols, a professor of pathology at the University of Kansas who trained forensic pathologists, who had numerous articles on pathology published in peer-reviewed medical journals, and who was also a court-certified expert witness in forensic pathology, said the SBT was impossible for a number of reasons: the conflicting angles through JFK and Connally, CE 399's virtually undamaged condition; the lack of an unobstructed path from either of the proposed entry sites to JFK's throat wound; among other reasons.
Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the leading forensic pathologists of the 20th and 21st century, initially accepted the SBT but later changed his mind after studying the SBT more closely with medical scientist Russell Kent.
LOL! Oh, so NOW you're back to citing the FPP majority! Pure comedy. And this after you just recently claimed that you "don't have to explain" the FPP's finding that the brain photos, if authentic, categorically rule out the EOP site; their finding that the skull x-rays do not show the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report; their finding that the only fragment trail on the skull x-rays is the high fragment trail with its cluster of numerous tiny fragments in the right-frontal region; and their finding that JFK's back-wound bullet entered and tunneled at an upward angle--a fact that they could only explain by bogusly assuming JFK was leaning over 50 degrees forward when the bullet hit!
If you would ever bother to actually read the FPP's report, you would discover that the FPP majority made no effort to explain the fact that the projectile that hit Connally's wrist deposited fibers in the wound but that the bullet that hit Connally's back deposited zero fibers, even though it had supposedly torn through four layers of JFK's clothing and two layers of Connally's clothing. The FPP majority also made no effort to explain how the alleged magic bullet could have nicked the top surface of the tie knot inward from the left edge while making no hole through the tie knot nor through any other part of the tie.
And, as mentioned, the only way the FPP majority could explain the JFK back-wound bullet's upward impact angle and upward tunneling was by making the demonstrably false assumption that Kennedy was leaning forward by over 50 degrees.
We have known for decades now that there was no hole through JFK's tie and that the nick on the knot was not on the edge of the knot. In fact, in an effort to create the false impression that a bullet passed through the tie knot, the FBI made an evidence photo of the knot with the knot twisted in such a way that the nick appeared to be in the middle of the knot. When Harold Weisberg, through years of FOIA suits, finally gained access to high-quality photos of the tie, he discovered there was no hole through the tie, a fact that the HSCA later quietly admitted.
Yet, SBT believers continue to ignore this hard physical evidence and still peddle their debunked theory. You guys are like Flat Earthers who ignore satellite images of the Earth and continue to insist the globe is flat.
JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing
As a follow-up, it's worth noting that Dr. Henry Lee, an internationally recognized forensic pathologist, has said he "doubts" the SBT, and that the Henry C. Lee Institute of Forensic Science and the journal Forensic have endorsed Knott Laboratory's SBT trajectory analysis. In fact, Forensic did their own documentary on the JFK case using Knott Lab's SBT trajectory study.
Also, Dr. Jerry Labriola, a forensic expert, said the SBT "doesn't work." Dr. Labriola, who died in 2024, co-authored with Dr. Lee the books Famous Crimes Revisited and Shocking Cases from Dr. Henry Lee's Forensic Files. Dr. Labriola worked in forensic pathology while in the Navy and later became a professor at the University of Connecticut Medical School. He gave many lectures on forensic science issues. One of his most popular lectures was "Ignoring Forensic Science" in which he discussed gunshot cases where medical examiners missed or misinterpreted important forensic evidence.
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MTG should work in the legacy media. When they get caught in a lie, as MTG has been recently, they simply ignore it and move on to their next BS story.
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MTG should work in the legacy media. When they get caught in a lie, as MTG has been recently, they simply ignore it and move on to their next BS story.
Ok. I get it. The media that bases their reporting on evidence, largely from witnesses, only report BS. Those that do not question a President’s lies report the “truth”.
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Ok. I get it. The media that bases their reporting on evidence, largely from witnesses, only report BS. Those that do not question a President’s lies report the “truth”.
Putting your faith in legacy media makes even less sense than putting your faith in eyewitnesses. Much of the deception of the legacy media is in what they choose NOT to report as it is in what they do report. They will largely ignore negative stories about people who side with them as they did in ignoring the story of John Bolton's guilty plea to a very serious charge. But they did manage to squeeze in the stories about the escaped giraffe and the cowardly grizzly bear.
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Putting your faith in legacy media makes even less sense than putting your faith in eyewitnesses. Much of the deception of the legacy media is in what they choose NOT to report as it is in what they do report. They will largely ignore negative stories about people who side with them as they did in ignoring the story of John Bolton's guilty plea to a very serious charge. But they did manage to squeeze in the stories about the escaped giraffe and the cowardly grizzly bear.
They all reported the Bolton story.
Bolton’s case is interesting because he used the documents to defend the foreign policy he helped carry out after Trump began revising history and refusing support to Ukraine. That led to his book that Trump tried to stop. Trump on the other hand used the horde of documents he took to Maralago to show his friends.
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They all reported the Bolton story.
Here's CBS Evening News from last night. Tell me where in it you find the Bolton story:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/062626-cbs-evening-news/
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Here's CBS Evening News from last night. Tell me where in it you find the Bolton story:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/062626-cbs-evening-news/
It is right here:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/john-bolton-former-trump-national-security-adviser-pleads-guilty-to-retaining-classified-information/
They even did a full written summary:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-bolton-guilty-plea-retaining-classified-national-security-information/
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It is right here:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/john-bolton-former-trump-national-security-adviser-pleads-guilty-to-retaining-classified-information/
They even did a full written summary:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-bolton-guilty-plea-retaining-classified-national-security-information/
Did you happen to see the caption that said CBS News 24/7? That story is on their streaming service. It was not part of their evening newscast. But the giraffe and the grizzly bear were considered to be newsworthy stories.
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Did you happen to see the caption that said CBS News 24/7? That story is on their streaming service. It was not part of their evening newscast. But the giraffe and the grizzly bear were considered to be newsworthy stories.
Who watches the evening news? To get viewers, they cover human interest stories. You said they didn’t cover the Bolton story and, instead of admitting that you were wrong, you double down and change the narrative. Kind of like how you approach the SBT when confronted with the evidence.
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Who watches the evening news? To get viewers, they cover human interest stories. You said they didn’t cover the Bolton story and, instead of admitting that you were wrong, you double down and change the narrative. Kind of like how you approach the SBT when confronted with the evidence.
Lots of people still get their news the old fashioned way. Because there is a limited window of time, the network news programs have to make editorial decisions about what they think is important. They made the decision that reporting on giraffes and grizzly bears was more important than reporting a negative story about a Trump hater. Gee, I wonder why.
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JC's wrist was hit by head shot fragment as he was holding his wrist in the air while leaning back. He was directly down range from head shooter. Nelly said she believed it was the third shot that hit C's wrist. It would have been right in front of her face.
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JC's wrist was hit by head shot fragment as he was holding his wrist in the air while leaning back. He was directly down range from head shooter. Nelly said she believed it was the third shot that hit C's wrist. It would have been right in front of her face.
Do you have any idea how laughable the things you propose are?