Reasonable Doubts?

[Benjamin Cole]

Am ZM--

The bullet hole in Gov. JBC's wrist bone (radius) is a biggie (see picture x-ray provided earlier).

I am a layman, but I doubt a shard from CE-399 could have done that.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Recently I have been chided for having what I term "reasonable doubts" about the LNT-SBT, especially in connection to Gov. JBC and his Stetson hat.

[SNIP]

The Core Arguments The Injury: Governor Connally sustained a severely comminuted (shattered) fracture to his right radius bone, completely severing the bone and destroying the wrist's structural integrity. Medics noted that the median nerve was also damaged, leading to an instant loss of motor control and strength in his right hand.

The Physics: Holding a rigid cowboy hat (Stetson) firmly in the air requires grip strength and the use of the wrist joint. Once shattered, the hand would typically go limp, causing the hat to fall to the floor of the limousine instantly.

8)The Warren Commission's [SNIP] theorized Connally reflexively maintained the hat in his grasp or that the hat was simply trapped in his hand or lap as he was struck.

[SNIP]

The most prominent expert who explicitly used the term "highly improbable" regarding the single-bullet theory and its medical trajectory is Dr. Cyril Wecht. He was a highly renowned forensic pathologist, attorney, and former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.

Dr. Cyril Wecht's Medical Critique: Dr. Wecht extensively studied the medical evidence and testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA). He vehemently argued against the Warren Commission's timeline using Zapruder film frame 230.

His expert critique regarding the hat specifically centers on the following points:

The Neurological Impossibility: Dr. Wecht noted that the bullet shattered the distal end of Connally's right radius bone (wrist) and partially severed his radial nerve.

Voluntary vs. Involuntary Control: He argued that with a collapsed lung from the chest wound and a shredded wrist nerve, it is medically "incongruous" for Connally to maintain voluntary grip strength to hold up a heavy Stetson cowboy hat for 1.5 seconds after the alleged impact.

[SNIP]

The Parkland Hospital Surgeons: Doctors like Dr. Charles Gregory (who operated on Connally’s wrist) noted that the neurovascular and bone destruction from a high-velocity military round would cause immediate, catastrophic loss of function in the hand.

Independent Forensic Analysts: Over decades, secondary medical critics—such as those featured in Jim Garrison's investigative files and various independent forensic studies—concluded that the hand would immediately go limp, meaning the hat could only remain in the hand if it was involuntarily trapped or wedged against his lap rather than actively held.

[SNIP]

Gov. JBC is indisputably seen at Z-272 holding onto his Stetson hat. Even the WC assents to that. Yet, the WC contends Gov. JBC was already shot through the wrist at that point...well, that is highly improbable.

A couple follow-up points: First and foremost, we should remember that Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the wounding, insisted he was not hit before Z229-230. After viewing the Zapruder film a few times for the WC, Connally said he was not hit before Z230. Two years later, in 1966, he was given the opportunity by LIFE magazine to study high-quality color prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, frame by frame, and to take as much time as he felt he needed. After doing so, Connally insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, and he selected Z234 as the moment of the bullet's impact.

As you noted, in Z230 Connally is still holding the hat. The hat is not pinned or wedged involuntarily against his thigh but is being held by his right hand. This proves his wrist could not have been hit yet, but the SBT requires that he was hit no later than Z224, and the Zapruder film shows he was clearly hit well before Z224.

It is revealing that even the HSCA FPP majority disagreed among themselves about how long Connally could have held onto his hat after the supposed SBT hit at Z188-190 (there was a Z188-190 hit, but it was not the alleged magic bullet). They fell back on the royal dodge that there was "little empirical data" to determine "with confidence what specific reaction should be expected from this type of wound" (7 HSCA 180). Well, yeah, unless they had film of someone being shot in the right wrist ala Connally's wrist wound, or unless they actually watched someone incurring such a wound, there was indeed little empirical data, i.e., data verified by observation or experience; however, there was plenty of scientific medical data that said there was no way a person could continue to hold onto a hat with their hand after the distal end of the radius bone was shattered and after part of the radial nerve was severed, and the FPP majority surely knew it.

It is also rather revealing that in the FPP majority's reply to Dr. Wecht's dissent, they made no effort to explain how Connally could have continued to grip his hat--not one word. Wecht mocked the majority's waffling on this key point:

Wecht exhibit 6 shows JBC firmly clutching his hat. This is approximately 1.5 seconds after he is alleged to have been shot through the chest, right wrist, and into his left thigh. Indeed, the FPPR [forensic pathology panel report] states that they were surprised that although he had suffered the injury to his wrist, he did not drop his hat. The panel should not only be surprised, but incredulous. If they were not so slavishly dedicated to defending the Warren Commission report (WCR), and the previous opinions submitted by two of the panel members, Dr. James Weston and Dr. Werner Spitz, they would have interpreted this picture correctly and accepted it for what it obviously and clearly demonstrates-namely, that JBC was not struck in the chest, wrist, or thigh by CE 399, and the SBT is, therefore, indefensible. (7 HSCA 199)

In his HSCA testimony, Wecht explained why Z230 poses such a severe problem for the SBT:

Mr. PURDY. Dr. Wecht, in your opinion, could Governor Connally have incurred the damage to his wrist which is described in the medical reports and still be holding the hat as shown in this photograph?

Dr. WECHT. No, absolutely not. In F-245, which is a blowup of Zapruder frame 230, we are told under the single-bullet theory that Gov. John Connally, for a period of approximately one and a half seconds, has already been shot through the right chest with the right lung pierced and collapsed, through the right wrist, with the distal end of the radius comminuted and the radial nerve partially
severed.

I heard some vague reference to a nerve in the prior testimony, but I didn't hear the follow through discussion that I was waiting for about nerve damage. There was nerve damage, yes, to the radial nerve. And the thumb which holds this large Texas white Stetson that is required for it to be in apposition with the index or index and middle fingers to hold that hat is innervated by the radial nerve. Note in F-245 that the hat is still being held and Governor Connally is not reacting. (1 HSCA 342)

Finally, it is worth remembering that Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the FPP majority, admitted in 1975 that the back-wound bullet "penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction" and that the bullet "traveled upwards within the body." He admitted this in his report to the Rockefeller Commission, adding that there was "no doubt" about it:

There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)

The wound's abrasion collar alone makes this clear, so clear that this was something Baden could not sweep under the rug, and so the FPP report acknowledges the upward trajectory of the bullet as it entered the skin and allegedly transited the neck. Baden attempted to explain this devastating fact by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck (oddly, the WC's trajectory experts had to make the same erroneous assumption about the forward lean of JFK's head to make the head-shot trajectory "work").

 

[John Corbett]

A couple follow-up points: First and foremost, we should remember that Connally himself, the guy who actually experienced the wounding, insisted he was not hit before Z229-230. After viewing the Zapruder film a few times for the WC, Connally said he was not hit before Z230. Two years later, in 1966, he was given the opportunity by LIFE magazine to study high-quality color prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, frame by frame, and to take as much time as he felt he needed. After doing so, Connally insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, and he selected Z234 as the moment of the bullet's impact.

JBC remembered how he reacted to being shot by doubling over and dipping to his right. What he didn't remember was his involuntary reflexive arm flip beginning at Z226 which came a split second after being shot and a split second before he began to dip to his right. JBC looked at the Z-frames and saw what he remembered doing and decided he was hit at about Z230. He was only off by less than half a second. I'll give him an A-minus for his effort.

Like most CTs, you have no explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at Z-226, the same frame JFK suddenly flipped both of his arms up. Instead you choose to pretend that didn't happen.

As you noted, in Z230 Connally is still holding the hat. The hat is not pinned or wedged involuntarily against his thigh but is being held by his right hand. This proves his wrist could not have been hit yet, but the SBT requires that he was hit no later than Z224, and the Zapruder film shows he was clearly hit well before Z224.

This proves you have very poor analytical skills. The claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about. People do not automatically drop things when they are shot. To illustrate this, Michael Baden pointed to the assassination of mob boss Carmine Gallante who was shot and killed while eating lunch at a sidewalk cafe in Brooklyn. His lifeless body still had his cigar clenched in his teeth as shown below.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/galante4.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1488

It is revealing that even the HSCA FPP majority disagreed among themselves about how long Connally could have held onto his hat after the supposed SBT hit at Z188-190 (there was a Z188-190 hit, but it was not the alleged magic bullet). They fell back on the royal dodge that there was "little empirical data" to determine "with confidence what specific reaction should be expected from this type of wound (7 HSCA 180)."

IOW, there is no proof JBC would have dropped his hat after being shot.

 

Well, yeah, unless they had film of someone being shot in the right wrist ala Connally's wrist wound, or unless they actually watched someone incurring such a wound, there was indeed little empirical data, i.e., data verified by observation or experience; however, there was plenty of scientific medical data that said there was no way a person could continue to hold onto a hat with their hand after the distal end of the radius bone was shattered and after part of the radial nerve was severed, and the FPP majority surely knew it.

Please cite such data.

It is also rather revealing that in the FPP majority's reply to Dr. Wecht's dissent, they made no effort to explain how Connally could have continued to grip his hat--not one word. Wecht mocked the majority's waffling on this key point:

Wecht exhibit 6 shows JBC firmly clutching his hat. This is approximately 1.5 seconds after he is alleged to have been shot through the chest, right wrist, and into his left thigh. Indeed, the FPPR [forensic pathology panel report] states that they were surprised that although he had suffered the injury to his wrist, he did not drop his hat. The panel should not only be surprised, but incredulous. If they were not so slavishly dedicated to defending the Warren Commission report (WCR), and the previous opinions submitted by two of the panel members, Dr. James Weston and Dr. Werner Spitz, they would have interpreted this picture correctly and accepted it for what it obviously and clearly demonstrates-namely, that JBC was not struck in the chest, wrist, or thigh by CE 399, and the SBT is, therefore, indefensible. (7 HSCA 199)

The burden of proof belongs to the person(s) making a claim. The claim is that JBC could not have held his hat after being shot in the wrist, an assertion for which there is no evidence.

In his HSCA testimony, Wecht explained why Z230 poses such a severe problem for the SBT:

Mr. PURDY. Dr. Wecht, in your opinion, could Governor Connally have incurred the damage to his wrist which is described in the medical reports and still be holding the hat as shown in this photograph?

Dr. WECHT. No, absolutely not. In F-245, which is a blowup of Zapruder frame 230, we are told under the single-bullet theory that Gov. John Connally, for a period of approximately one and a half seconds, has already been shot through the right chest with the right lung pierced and collapsed, through the right wrist, with the distal end of the radius comminuted and the radial nerve partially
severed.

Z230 is actually only about a half second after JBC was shot. The HSCA timing of the shots was completely FUBAR based on bogus junk science. It really doesn't matter because JBC continued to hold his hat well after he began his gyrations in reaction to having been shot.

I heard some vague reference to a nerve in the prior testimony, but I didn't hear the follow through discussion that I was waiting for about nerve damage. There was nerve damage, yes, to the radial nerve. And the thumb which holds this large Texas white Stetson that is required for it to be in apposition with the index or index and middle fingers to hold that hat is innervated by the radial nerve. Note in F-245 that the hat is still being held and Governor Connally is not reacting. (1 HSCA 342)[/font]

Finally, it is worth remembering that Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the FPP majority, admitted in 1975 that the back-wound bullet "penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction" and that the bullet "traveled upwards within the body." He admitted this in his report to the Rockefeller Commission, adding that there was "no doubt" about it:

There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)

One of the favorite ploys of CTs is to quote people out of context. The statement that the bullet went through JFK on an upward trajectory was in relaton to the anatomical position, i.e. flat on his back. JFK was not in an anatomical position when shot in the back. The picture below, taken shortly before the shooting, replicates the JFK's approximate position at the time of the shooting, with his right elbow on the side of the car and turned toward the spectators to his right. This position raises his right shoulder while lowering the position of his necktie in the front which is where the bullet exited.
https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/231116124910-lead-image-jfk-assassination.jpg?q=w_3000,c_fill

The HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded that a bullet entered JFK's back and exited from his throat. If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition.

The wound's abrasion collar alone makes this clear, so clear that this was something Baden could not sweep under the rug, and so the FPP report acknowledges the upward trajectory of the bullet as it entered the skin and allegedly transited the neck. Baden attempted to explain this devastating fact by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck (oddly, the WC's trajectory experts had to make the same erroneous assumption about the forward lean of JFK's head to make the head-shot trajectory "work").

Once again, an amateur sleuth like MTG tries to substitute his FUBAR analysis of the medical evidence for the unaninous conclusion of a panel of some of the most respected forensic medical examiners of their day. It's a very easy call as to whom we should believe.

[Andrew Mason]

Like most CTs, you have no explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at Z-226, the same frame JFK suddenly flipped both of his arms up. Instead you choose to pretend that didn't happen.

The movement of the arm could be completely voluntary.  You may notice that after z226 he turns around, as we see in Altgens #6:



He has to lift his right hand in preparing to turn because his right elbow needs to be above the seat back in order to turn. He said he turned around to his right in response to hearing the first shot.

[Michael T. Griffith]

JBC remembered how he reacted to being shot by doubling over and dipping to his right. What he didn't remember was his involuntary reflexive arm flip beginning at Z226 which came a split second after being shot and a split second before he began to dip to his right. JBC looked at the Z-frames and saw what he remembered doing and decided he was hit at about Z230. He was only off by less than half a second. I'll give him an A-minus for his effort.

Like most CTs, you have no explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at Z-226, the same frame JFK suddenly flipped both of his arms up. Instead you choose to pretend that didn't happen.
This proves you have very poor analytical skills. The claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about. People do not automatically drop things when they are shot. To illustrate this, Michael Baden pointed to the assassination of mob boss Carmine Gallante who was shot and killed while eating lunch at a sidewalk cafe in Brooklyn. His lifeless body still had his cigar clenched in his teeth as shown below.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/galante4.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1488
IOW, there is no proof JBC would have dropped his hat after being shot.
Please cite such data.
Z230 is actually only about a half second after JBC was shot. The HSCA timing of the shots was completely FUBAR based on bogus junk science. It really doesn't matter because JBC continued to hold his hat well after he began his gyrations in reaction to having been shot.
One of the favorite ploys of CTs is to quote people out of context. The statement that the bullet went through JFK on an upward trajectory was in relaton to the anatomical position, i.e. flat on his back. JFK was not in an anatomical position when shot in the back. The picture below, taken shortly before the shooting, replicates the JFK's approximate position at the time of the shooting, with his right elbow on the side of the car and turned toward the spectators to his right. This position raises his right shoulder while lowering the position of his necktie in the front which is where the bullet exited.
https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/231116124910-lead-image-jfk-assassination.jpg?q=w_3000,c_fill

The HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded that a bullet entered JFK's back and exited from his throat. If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition.

Once again, an amateur sleuth like MTG tries to substitute his FUBAR analysis of the medical evidence for the unaninous conclusion of a panel of some of the most respected forensic medical examiners of their day. It's a very easy call as to whom we should believe.

You choose to ignore the hard photographic evidence that the back wound was caused by a bullet that hit at an upward angle and that the bullet's track tunneled upward. Why? Because, you say, "If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition."

No, this just shows your severe ignorance and extreme bias. You don't even know the basics of the case. Since Elm Street slopes downward, and since JFK's head and upper torso were leaning slightly forward, a shot fired from the first or second floor of the Dal-Tex Building would have hit JFK's back at an upward angle. Incidentally, the Dal-Tex Building was the same building where Mafia man Eugene Brading was arrested for acting suspiciously right after the shooting, and the same building from which some witnesses said they heard shots fired.

I should add that the fact that the autopsy photo of the back wound proves the bullet hit and traveled at an upward angle is one of the findings that "the HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded." Indeed, this was one of the few FPP findings that Wecht did not dispute. Also, the only way Baden, the FPP chairman, could explain this fact was by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck.

And, oh, well, of course you claim that Connally was "off" when he insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, even after he studied a high-quality color print of the Zapruder film under high magnification frame by frame. Somehow he just "missed" the specious pre-Z229 "reactions" that you and other SBT defenders claim to see in the film, even though Connally was the one who actually experienced the shooting and knew himself better than anyone else.

Obviously, Connally didn't see any significance in the movement of his right arm in Z226, certainly not as an indication that he'd been hit yet. Z226 merely shows the continuation of a movement he began several frames earlier as he was turning back from looking at JFK. You must be blind to claim that his movement resembles the sudden and dramatic jolting forward of JFK's torso and the upward flinging of his hands and elbows from Z226-232. You must be kidding.

BTW, I'm guessing you're unaware that at the ABA mock Oswald trial, SBT defender Dr. Robert Piziali of Failure Analysis admitted under cross-examination that JFK's Z225 reaction means the bullet must have hit him no later than Z221. Years earlier, Dr. John Lattimer, to his credit, made the same admission.

You make the hilarious statement that "the claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about."

Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand. Dr. Wecht, a former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, said the same thing. Even the FPP majority could not agree on how long Connally could have gripped the hat after his wrist was hit, and they made no effort to explain how he could have still held the hat even as late as Z272.

The only layman making bogus claims here is you.

[John Corbett]

You choose to ignore the hard photographic evidence that the back wound was caused by a bullet that hit at an upward angle and that the bullet's track tunneled upward. Why? Because, you say, "If that bullet had passed through JFK on an upward trajectory, it would have to have been fired from below and behind JFK. Of course that is a ludicrous proposition."

No, this just shows your severe ignorance and extreme bias. You don't even know the basics of the case. Since Elm Street slopes downward, and since JFK's head and upper torso were leaning slightly forward, a shot fired from the first or second floor of the Dal-Tex Building would have hit JFK's back at an upward angle. Incidentally, the Dal-Tex Building was the same building where Mafia man Eugene Brading was arrested for acting suspiciously right after the shooting, and the same building from which some witnesses said they heard shots fired.

Oh, so you can believe that shot could go through JFK on an upward angle if fired from above and behind him if fired from the Dal-Tex building but not if fired from the TSBD. I'd love to see your calculation that such a shot is feasible from a second floor location but not a sixth floor location.

I should add that the fact that the autopsy photo of the back wound proves the bullet hit and traveled at an upward angle is one of the findings that "the HSCA FPP UNANIMOUSLY concluded." Indeed, this was one of the few FPP findings that Wecht did not dispute. Also, the only way Baden, the FPP chairman, could explain this fact was by assuming that JFK was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck.

And, oh, well, of course you claim that Connally was "off" when he insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z229, even after he studied a high-quality color print of the Zapruder film under high magnification frame by frame. Somehow he just "missed" the specious pre-Z229 "reactions" that you and other SBT defenders claim to see in the film, even though Connally was the one who actually experienced the shooting and knew himself better than anyone else.

JBC was looking specifically for the reaction he remembered making and found it post Z230. He wasn't looking for the reflexive reaction that he had no memory of making.

Obviously, Connally didn't see any significance in the movement of his right arm in Z226, certainly not as an indication that he'd been hit yet. Z226 merely shows the continuation of a movement he began several frames earlier as he was turning back from looking at JFK. You must be blind to claim that his movement resembles the sudden and dramatic jolting forward of JFK's torso and the upward flinging of his hands and elbows from Z226-232. You must be kidding.

JBC began rotating his  torso to the front a few frames earlier. His arm movement began at Z226 and was just as rapid and dramatic as JFK's arm movement. The up and down motion of JBC's right arm lasted for 9 frames, a half a second, and was immediately followed by the reaction which JBC remembered making.  I don't suppose you have any explanation for what caused JBC's rapid up and down arm flip.

BTW, I'm guessing you're unaware that at the ABA mock Oswald trial, SBT defender Dr. Robert Piziali of Failure Analysis admitted under cross-examination that JFK's Z225 reaction means the bullet must have hit him no later than Z221. Years earlier, Dr. John Lattimer, to his credit, made the same admission.

For years I have been of the belief that JFK/JBC were struck in the Z222-223 window. That's as precise as we can get given the timepiece we have to work with, which is the Z-film. With each frame covering 1/18 second of time, that is as precise as we can get.

You make the hilarious statement that "the claim that JBC could not have held onto his hat after being shot in the wrist is a bogus one based on assumptions by laymen who have no idea what they are talking about." 

Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand. Dr. Wecht, a former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, said the same thing. Even the FPP majority could not agree on how long Connally could have gripped the hat after his wrist was hit, and they made no effort to explain how he could have still held the hat even as late as Z272.

The only layman making bogus claims here is you.

The fact that there is disagreement among the FPP is an indication it is not an established fact that JBC could not have held onto his had after being shot through the wrist. If you have proof of which of these medical examiners is right and which ones are wrong, please post it. In absence of such, it is an unproven assertion.

[Benjamin Cole]

Umm, Dr. Charles Gregory, the surgeon who operated on Connally's wrist, said that the shattering of the distal radius bone and the severing of part of the radial nerve would cause immediate and complete loss of function in the hand.---MTG

This is my recollection of what Gregory said also. Can you find reference to this in the WC?

I have reasonable doubts that Gov. JBC held onto his hat after being shot through the wrist.

Ergo, a reasonable deduction is JBC had not yet been shot by Z-275.