JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on March 26, 2025, 09:22:17 AM
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I feel it's important to have a thread highlighting how deceitful and untrustworthy the Warren Commission was in it's approach “to evaluate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination”. Feel free to add your own examples. As the examples mount up a pattern of omission, manipulation and outright lying will emerge as the evidence is shaped to reflect a predetermined conclusion - that Oswald was the lone assassin.
I'm going to kick off with the fact that the lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor, which were attributed to Bonnie Ray Williams, were initially discovered on top of a stack of boxes that formed part of the 'back wall' of the Sniper's Nest and not 25-30 feet away, where they were photographed by Studebaker. At least six of the first officers on the scene in the southeast corner of the 6th floor describe seeing the lunch remains there, with at least three of them specifying that the remains were on top of the Sniper's Nest. The testimonies and various statements of these officers regarding this issue were simply ignored in the Warren Commission Report, as if they had never been made.
LUKE MOONEY (first officer on the scene)
I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken.
In his report, made on the 23rd, Mooney describes seeing a half eaten piece of chicken on one of the boxes that form part of the"cubby hole" (SN) in the southeast corner. Mooney expands on this in his WC testimony.
Mr. Mooney.
No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing–
Mr. Ball.
Tell us where you found it?
Mr. Mooney.
It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes.
...
Mr. Mooney.
If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. Ball.
Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. Mooney.
There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. Ball.
By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. Mooney.
Right.
Mr. Ball.
Where was that?
Mr. Mooney.
Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. Ball.
On the same carton?
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
...
Senator Cooper.
How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney.
I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator Cooper.
You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir.
This is from the WC testimony of Sargeant Jerry Hill:
“There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack.”
Hill is clearly describing the same structure that Mooney describes as a "cubby hole" - a shield constructed of boxes designed to conceal the sniper's position from general view. He describes seeing a piece of chicken and a lunch sack on top of a stack of boxes, exactly as Mooney had. Hill clarifies that the lunch remains were on one of the stacks “used for concealment”, that is to say, one of the stacks used to create the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest.
Another officer who sees the piece of chicken on top of the boxes that form the back wall is Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford, except this time he describes the back wall as a "barricade":
"I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "Here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw three expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade..."
Deputy Sheriff A D McCurley notices the same thing:
"We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney...hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw three expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide him from anyone who happened to come up on that floor…
All four men describe a partially eaten or half eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the boxes. Three of them describe seeing a small paper sack alongside it. Note that the half eaten piece of chicken is not inside the paper sack. The piece of chicken and lunch sack are on top of one of the stacks of boxes that form the back wall of the SN. Two other officers describe seeing these lunch remains but in more general terms. Although they see them in the southeast corner they don't specify that the remains were on top of the SN
During his WC testimony, motorcycle cop E D Brewer describes what he saw when he went over to the southeast corner to see where the shells had been discovered:
Mr. Belin
What window?
Mr. Brewer.
In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. Belin.
See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. Brewer.
Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken.
Mr. Belin.
Anything else?
Mr. Brewer.
A drink bottle.
Mr. Belin.
What bottle?
Mr. Brewer.
A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle.
Motorcycle cop Clyde A Haygood describes seeing a lunch sack and a Dr Pepper bottle in the southeast corner, where the shells were located:
Mr. Belin.
Which window?
Mr. Haygood.
On the southeast corner.
Mr. Belin.
South side or east side?
Mr. Haygood.
On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. Belin.
See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. Haygood.
Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. Belin
Where was that?
Mr. Haygood.
There at the same location where the shells were.
Mr. Belin.
Was there a coke bottle or anything with it?
Mr. Haygood.
Dr. Pepper bottle.
What do all these officers have in common?
Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Brewer and Haygood were all on the 6th floor when Mooney shouted out that he had discovered the location from where the shots had been taken.
These are the first responders, the first officers on the scene. When they go over to the southeast corner, they see the barricade/shield made out of boxes that would hide anyone taking a shot from this position [the back wall of the Sniper’s nest]. They also discover a partially eaten piece of chicken on the bone, a lunch sack and an empty bottle of Dr. Pepper.
If we take the collective statements of these first responders at face value then the piece of partially eaten chicken and lunch sack are on one of the stacks forming the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest. Somewhere in the same vicinity, presumably on the floor, was an empty Dr. Pepper bottle. Yet, by the time the crime scene detectives show up to take their pictures, the partially eaten piece of chicken is now inside the lunch sack and the lunch sack (along with the empty Dr. Pepper bottle) are now 25 ft away near the two-wheeler trolley.
All of these testimonies/statements leave zero doubt that the lunch remains were initially discovered on top of the SN.
This was in stark contrast to the testimonies of Crime Lab Detective Robert Studebaker and Bonnie Ray Williams who both testified that the lunch remains in question were 25 - 30 ft away by the two-wheeler trolley. Indeed, the remains were photographed in this location.
So, how did the Commission deal with this contradiction?
Unbelievably, they decided to ignore the various testimonies of the first responders. It was as if these officers had never made any kind of statement about finding the lunch remains on the Sniper’s Nest. It wasn’t as if the Commission weighed up the pros and cons of each side, they simply accepted Bonnie Ray’s testimony and completely ignored the contradictory testimonies/statements of Mooney, Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Haygood and Brewer.
The whereabouts of the lunch remains were dealt with in great detail during the WC hearings, when Haygood, Brewer, Hill and, in particular, Mooney testified before the Warren Commission. The attorneys questioning these men were well aware of the contradiction between their testimonies and that of Bonnie Ray concerning the lunch remains. Joseph Ball, the attorney who questioned Luke Mooney, actually brought up Mooney’s testimony to Robert Studebaker, the crime scene detective:
Mr. Ball.
Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?
Mr. Studebaker.
I don't believe there was one there.
Mr. Ball.
You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?
Mr. Studebaker.
No.
Mr. Ball.
Was anything like that called to your attention?
Mr. Studebaker.
I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.
And that was it! That was the extent to which this contradiction was acknowledged. Ball took Bonnie Ray’s testimony on the 24th March and the lunch remains were covered in detail. The very next day, 25th March, Ball questioned Mooney and once again the lunch remains were covered in detail only this time Mooney was saying they were on the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest and not 25 ft away by the two-wheeler, as Bonnie Ray had testified. Ball never said a word. The only time he brought it up was weeks later, when questioning Studebaker.
The Commission knew that Bonnie Ray’s lunch remains were found on top of the Sniper’s Nest but chose to ignore it because it was only going to lead to unwanted “inconsistencies”.
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I feel it's important to have a thread highlighting how deceitful and untrustworthy the Warren Commission was in it's approach “to evaluate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination”. Feel free to add your own examples. As the examples mount up a pattern of omission, manipulation and outright lying will emerge as the evidence is shaped to reflect a predetermined conclusion - that Oswald was the lone assassin.
I'm going to kick off with the fact that the lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor, which were attributed to Bonnie Ray Williams, were initially discovered on top of a stack of boxes that formed part of the 'back wall' of the Sniper's Nest and not 25-30 feet away, where they were photographed by Studebaker. At least six of the first officers on the scene in the southeast corner of the 6th floor describe seeing the lunch remains there, with at least three of them specifying that the remains were on top of the Sniper's Nest. The testimonies and various statements of these officers regarding this issue were simply ignored in the Warren Commission Report, as if they had never been made.
LUKE MOONEY (first officer on the scene)
I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken.
In his report, made on the 23rd, Mooney describes seeing a half eaten piece of chicken on one of the boxes that form part of the"cubby hole" (SN) in the southeast corner. Mooney expands on this in his WC testimony.
Mr. Mooney.
No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing–
Mr. Ball.
Tell us where you found it?
Mr. Mooney.
It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes.
...
Mr. Mooney.
If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. Ball.
Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. Mooney.
There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. Ball.
By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. Mooney.
Right.
Mr. Ball.
Where was that?
Mr. Mooney.
Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. Ball.
On the same carton?
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
...
Senator Cooper.
How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney.
I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator Cooper.
You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir.
This is from the WC testimony of Sargeant Jerry Hill:
“There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack.”
Hill is clearly describing the same structure that Mooney describes as a "cubby hole" - a shield constructed of boxes designed to conceal the sniper's position from general view. He describes seeing a piece of chicken and a lunch sack on top of a stack of boxes, exactly as Mooney had. Hill clarifies that the lunch remains were on one of the stacks “used for concealment”, that is to say, one of the stacks used to create the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest.
Another officer who sees the piece of chicken on top of the boxes that form the back wall is Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford, except this time he describes the back wall as a "barricade":
"I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "Here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw three expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade..."
Deputy Sheriff A D McCurley notices the same thing:
"We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney...hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw three expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide him from anyone who happened to come up on that floor…
All four men describe a partially eaten or half eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the boxes. Three of them describe seeing a small paper sack alongside it. Note that the half eaten piece of chicken is not inside the paper sack. The piece of chicken and lunch sack are on top of one of the stacks of boxes that form the back wall of the SN. Two other officers describe seeing these lunch remains but in more general terms. Although they see them in the southeast corner they don't specify that the remains were on top of the SN
During his WC testimony, motorcycle cop E D Brewer describes what he saw when he went over to the southeast corner to see where the shells had been discovered:
Mr. Belin
What window?
Mr. Brewer.
In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. Belin.
See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. Brewer.
Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken.
Mr. Belin.
Anything else?
Mr. Brewer.
A drink bottle.
Mr. Belin.
What bottle?
Mr. Brewer.
A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle.
Motorcycle cop Clyde A Haygood describes seeing a lunch sack and a Dr Pepper bottle in the southeast corner, where the shells were located:
Mr. Belin.
Which window?
Mr. Haygood.
On the southeast corner.
Mr. Belin.
South side or east side?
Mr. Haygood.
On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. Belin.
See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. Haygood.
Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. Belin
Where was that?
Mr. Haygood.
There at the same location where the shells were.
Mr. Belin.
Was there a coke bottle or anything with it?
Mr. Haygood.
Dr. Pepper bottle.
What do all these officers have in common?
Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Brewer and Haygood were all on the 6th floor when Mooney shouted out that he had discovered the location from where the shots had been taken.
These are the first responders, the first officers on the scene. When they go over to the southeast corner, they see the barricade/shield made out of boxes that would hide anyone taking a shot from this position [the back wall of the Sniper’s nest]. They also discover a partially eaten piece of chicken on the bone, a lunch sack and an empty bottle of Dr. Pepper.
If we take the collective statements of these first responders at face value then the piece of partially eaten chicken and lunch sack are on one of the stacks forming the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest. Somewhere in the same vicinity, presumably on the floor, was an empty Dr. Pepper bottle. Yet, by the time the crime scene detectives show up to take their pictures, the partially eaten piece of chicken is now inside the lunch sack and the lunch sack (along with the empty Dr. Pepper bottle) are now 25 ft away near the two-wheeler trolley.
All of these testimonies/statements leave zero doubt that the lunch remains were initially discovered on top of the SN.
This was in stark contrast to the testimonies of Crime Lab Detective Robert Studebaker and Bonnie Ray Williams who both testified that the lunch remains in question were 25 - 30 ft away by the two-wheeler trolley. Indeed, the remains were photographed in this location.
So, how did the Commission deal with this contradiction?
Unbelievably, they decided to ignore the various testimonies of the first responders. It was as if these officers had never made any kind of statement about finding the lunch remains on the Sniper’s Nest. It wasn’t as if the Commission weighed up the pros and cons of each side, they simply accepted Bonnie Ray’s testimony and completely ignored the contradictory testimonies/statements of Mooney, Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Haygood and Brewer.
The whereabouts of the lunch remains were dealt with in great detail during the WC hearings, when Haygood, Brewer, Hill and, in particular, Mooney testified before the Warren Commission. The attorneys questioning these men were well aware of the contradiction between their testimonies and that of Bonnie Ray concerning the lunch remains. Joseph Ball, the attorney who questioned Luke Mooney, actually brought up Mooney’s testimony to Robert Studebaker, the crime scene detective:
Mr. Ball.
Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?
Mr. Studebaker.
I don't believe there was one there.
Mr. Ball.
You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?
Mr. Studebaker.
No.
Mr. Ball.
Was anything like that called to your attention?
Mr. Studebaker.
I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.
And that was it! That was the extent to which this contradiction was acknowledged. Ball took Bonnie Ray’s testimony on the 24th March and the lunch remains were covered in detail. The very next day, 25th March, Ball questioned Mooney and once again the lunch remains were covered in detail only this time Mooney was saying they were on the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest and not 25 ft away by the two-wheeler, as Bonnie Ray had testified. Ball never said a word. The only time he brought it up was weeks later, when questioning Studebaker.
The Commission knew that Bonnie Ray’s lunch remains were found on top of the Sniper’s Nest but chose to ignore it because it was only going to lead to unwanted “inconsistencies”.
I feel it's important to have a thread highlighting how deceitful and untrustworthy the Warren Commission was in it's approach “to evaluate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination”. Feel free to add your own examples. As the examples mount up a pattern of omission, manipulation and outright lying will emerge as the evidence is shaped to reflect a predetermined conclusion - that Oswald was the lone assassin.
So, let’s get this straight, you believe that although the WC published all the testimonies and supporting evidence (including the inconsistencies) that they are guilty of omission, manipulation and outright lying?
The only time he brought it up was weeks later, when questioning Studebaker.
Yet, it appears that the WC requested the FBI to interview BRW and Shelly in May of 1964 to specify where the lunch remains were left and later found. Why would the WC choose to do this if they were in fact ignoring the inconsistencies as you claim?
https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/brw-fbi-052664.pdf (https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/brw-fbi-052664.pdf)
It is ridiculous to claim the WC was any of the things you suggest. You can believe whatever you wish to believe regarding what the various witnesses said. I really don’t care. But trying to place some sort of dishonesty on the WC for supposedly ignoring the inconsistencies that are normal and expected when relying on witness accounts is simply not what the records (that, by the way, the WC chose to publish) show.
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Probably, more than a dozen instances the Commission followed the mandate put forth by the Katzenbach Memo and then took the direction from the FBI.
All of these broken inconsistencies add up to proof of conspiracy.
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I feel it's important to have a thread highlighting how deceitful and untrustworthy the Warren Commission was in it's approach “to evaluate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination”. Feel free to add your own examples. As the examples mount up a pattern of omission, manipulation and outright lying will emerge as the evidence is shaped to reflect a predetermined conclusion - that Oswald was the lone assassin.
So, let’s get this straight, you believe that although the WC published all the testimonies and supporting evidence (including the inconsistencies) that they are guilty of omission, manipulation and outright lying?
The only time he brought it up was weeks later, when questioning Studebaker.
Yet, it appears that the WC requested the FBI to interview BRW and Shelly in May of 1964 to specify where the lunch remains were left and later found. Why would the WC choose to do this if they were in fact ignoring the inconsistencies as you claim?
https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/brw-fbi-052664.pdf (https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/brw-fbi-052664.pdf)
It is ridiculous to claim the WC was any of the things you suggest. You can believe whatever you wish to believe regarding what the various witnesses said. I really don’t care. But trying to place some sort of dishonesty on the WC for supposedly ignoring the inconsistencies that are normal and expected when relying on witness accounts is simply not what the records (that, by the way, the WC chose to publish) show.
There was twp sets of pieces of chicken bones. Givens also was eating chicken there.
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Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir
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I feel it's important to have a thread highlighting how deceitful and untrustworthy the Warren Commission was in it's approach “to evaluate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination”. Feel free to add your own examples. As the examples mount up a pattern of omission, manipulation and outright lying will emerge as the evidence is shaped to reflect a predetermined conclusion - that Oswald was the lone assassin.
I'm going to kick off with the fact that the lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor, which were attributed to Bonnie Ray Williams, were initially discovered on top of a stack of boxes that formed part of the 'back wall' of the Sniper's Nest and not 25-30 feet away, where they were photographed by Studebaker. At least six of the first officers on the scene in the southeast corner of the 6th floor describe seeing the lunch remains there, with at least three of them specifying that the remains were on top of the Sniper's Nest. The testimonies and various statements of these officers regarding this issue were simply ignored in the Warren Commission Report, as if they had never been made.
LUKE MOONEY (first officer on the scene)
I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken.
In his report, made on the 23rd, Mooney describes seeing a half eaten piece of chicken on one of the boxes that form part of the"cubby hole" (SN) in the southeast corner. Mooney expands on this in his WC testimony.
Mr. Mooney.
No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing–
Mr. Ball.
Tell us where you found it?
Mr. Mooney.
It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes.
...
Mr. Mooney.
If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. Ball.
Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. Mooney.
There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. Ball.
By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. Mooney.
Right.
Mr. Ball.
Where was that?
Mr. Mooney.
Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. Ball.
On the same carton?
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
...
Senator Cooper.
How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney.
I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator Cooper.
You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney.
Yes, sir.
This is from the WC testimony of Sargeant Jerry Hill:
“There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack.”
Hill is clearly describing the same structure that Mooney describes as a "cubby hole" - a shield constructed of boxes designed to conceal the sniper's position from general view. He describes seeing a piece of chicken and a lunch sack on top of a stack of boxes, exactly as Mooney had. Hill clarifies that the lunch remains were on one of the stacks “used for concealment”, that is to say, one of the stacks used to create the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest.
Another officer who sees the piece of chicken on top of the boxes that form the back wall is Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford, except this time he describes the back wall as a "barricade":
"I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "Here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw three expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade..."
Deputy Sheriff A D McCurley notices the same thing:
"We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney...hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw three expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide him from anyone who happened to come up on that floor…
All four men describe a partially eaten or half eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the boxes. Three of them describe seeing a small paper sack alongside it. Note that the half eaten piece of chicken is not inside the paper sack. The piece of chicken and lunch sack are on top of one of the stacks of boxes that form the back wall of the SN. Two other officers describe seeing these lunch remains but in more general terms. Although they see them in the southeast corner they don't specify that the remains were on top of the SN
During his WC testimony, motorcycle cop E D Brewer describes what he saw when he went over to the southeast corner to see where the shells had been discovered:
Mr. Belin
What window?
Mr. Brewer.
In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. Belin.
See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. Brewer.
Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken.
Mr. Belin.
Anything else?
Mr. Brewer.
A drink bottle.
Mr. Belin.
What bottle?
Mr. Brewer.
A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle.
Motorcycle cop Clyde A Haygood describes seeing a lunch sack and a Dr Pepper bottle in the southeast corner, where the shells were located:
Mr. Belin.
Which window?
Mr. Haygood.
On the southeast corner.
Mr. Belin.
South side or east side?
Mr. Haygood.
On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. Belin.
See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. Haygood.
Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. Belin
Where was that?
Mr. Haygood.
There at the same location where the shells were.
Mr. Belin.
Was there a coke bottle or anything with it?
Mr. Haygood.
Dr. Pepper bottle.
What do all these officers have in common?
Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Brewer and Haygood were all on the 6th floor when Mooney shouted out that he had discovered the location from where the shots had been taken.
These are the first responders, the first officers on the scene. When they go over to the southeast corner, they see the barricade/shield made out of boxes that would hide anyone taking a shot from this position [the back wall of the Sniper’s nest]. They also discover a partially eaten piece of chicken on the bone, a lunch sack and an empty bottle of Dr. Pepper.
If we take the collective statements of these first responders at face value then the piece of partially eaten chicken and lunch sack are on one of the stacks forming the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest. Somewhere in the same vicinity, presumably on the floor, was an empty Dr. Pepper bottle. Yet, by the time the crime scene detectives show up to take their pictures, the partially eaten piece of chicken is now inside the lunch sack and the lunch sack (along with the empty Dr. Pepper bottle) are now 25 ft away near the two-wheeler trolley.
All of these testimonies/statements leave zero doubt that the lunch remains were initially discovered on top of the SN.
This was in stark contrast to the testimonies of Crime Lab Detective Robert Studebaker and Bonnie Ray Williams who both testified that the lunch remains in question were 25 - 30 ft away by the two-wheeler trolley. Indeed, the remains were photographed in this location.
So, how did the Commission deal with this contradiction?
Unbelievably, they decided to ignore the various testimonies of the first responders. It was as if these officers had never made any kind of statement about finding the lunch remains on the Sniper’s Nest. It wasn’t as if the Commission weighed up the pros and cons of each side, they simply accepted Bonnie Ray’s testimony and completely ignored the contradictory testimonies/statements of Mooney, Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Haygood and Brewer.
The whereabouts of the lunch remains were dealt with in great detail during the WC hearings, when Haygood, Brewer, Hill and, in particular, Mooney testified before the Warren Commission. The attorneys questioning these men were well aware of the contradiction between their testimonies and that of Bonnie Ray concerning the lunch remains. Joseph Ball, the attorney who questioned Luke Mooney, actually brought up Mooney’s testimony to Robert Studebaker, the crime scene detective:
Mr. Ball.
Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?
Mr. Studebaker.
I don't believe there was one there.
Mr. Ball.
You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?
Mr. Studebaker.
No.
Mr. Ball.
Was anything like that called to your attention?
Mr. Studebaker.
I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.
And that was it! That was the extent to which this contradiction was acknowledged. Ball took Bonnie Ray’s testimony on the 24th March and the lunch remains were covered in detail. The very next day, 25th March, Ball questioned Mooney and once again the lunch remains were covered in detail only this time Mooney was saying they were on the back wall of the Sniper’s Nest and not 25 ft away by the two-wheeler, as Bonnie Ray had testified. Ball never said a word. The only time he brought it up was weeks later, when questioning Studebaker.
The Commission knew that Bonnie Ray’s lunch remains were found on top of the Sniper’s Nest but chose to ignore it because it was only going to lead to unwanted “inconsistencies”.
Dan, Good post here!
FBI Director Hoover "exerted pressure" on his bureau agents to "quickly" complete their work and conclude that Oswald was the lone assassin.
Hoover should actually be investigated more than Oswald, in my opinion.
I have wondered about the timing of Bonnie Ray being on the sixth floor to put down plywood in this time frame. Who directed him to do that during that time?...
My thought is that if the Oswald "story" could have been discounted for some reason (like, Oswald decided to go outside, or had to be taken to the hospital during the shooting, etc...), then Bonnie Ray would possibly have become the "patsy."
The Warren Commission is most likely just as credible as the FBI regarding the assassination...
Arlen Specter's far out single bullet theory, SS agent Bill Greer rubbernecking to see Kennedy get his head blown off while braking the limousine, the quick removal of the "crime scene" (the presidential limousine)... AND, the delay in releasing all classified documents... are enough indicators to suggest a conspiracy of some sort...
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Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir
That day
Can chicken only be eaten on 11/22?
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That day
Can chicken only be eaten on 11/22?
Do have other evidence?
please go on...
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common knowledge. Maybe post less and read more.
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common knowledge. Maybe post less and read more.
I'm not aware of it. Cite.
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I'm not aware of it. Cite.
I'm not aware of it.
No doubt. Read and you will be. I have no desire to babysit. Witness statements and the simple fact they are definitely placed in two locations would be a clue.
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I'm not aware of it.
No doubt. Read and you will be. I have no desire to babysit. Witness statements and the simple fact they are definitely placed in two locations would be a clue.
Just as I thought....
nothing.
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Just as I thought....
nothing.
Correct, you do not know anything, or there would be no need to explain this to you. You would already know it.
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It doesn’t specifically say chicken sandwich. However it doesn’t exclude chicken either. The point being that it contradicts Givens’ statement in his testimony of not eating anything.
(https://i.vgy.me/QXIxNS.jpg)
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It doesn’t specifically say chicken sandwich. However it doesn’t exclude chicken either. The point being that it contradicts Givens’ statement in his testimony of not eating anything.
:D Is there a deli nearby, I can get one of them "chicken-bone" sandwiches?
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I feel it's important to have a thread highlighting how deceitful and untrustworthy the Warren Commission was in it's approach “to evaluate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination”. Feel free to add your own examples. As the examples mount up a pattern of omission, manipulation and outright lying will emerge as the evidence is shaped to reflect a predetermined conclusion - that Oswald was the lone assassin.
So, let’s get this straight, you believe that although the WC published all the testimonies and supporting evidence (including the inconsistencies) that they are guilty of omission, manipulation and outright lying?
The only time he brought it up was weeks later, when questioning Studebaker.
Yet, it appears that the WC requested the FBI to interview BRW and Shelly in May of 1964 to specify where the lunch remains were left and later found. Why would the WC choose to do this if they were in fact ignoring the inconsistencies as you claim?
https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/brw-fbi-052664.pdf (https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/brw-fbi-052664.pdf)
It is ridiculous to claim the WC was any of the things you suggest. You can believe whatever you wish to believe regarding what the various witnesses said. I really don’t care. But trying to place some sort of dishonesty on the WC for supposedly ignoring the inconsistencies that are normal and expected when relying on witness accounts is simply not what the records (that, by the way, the WC chose to publish) show.
The collective testimonies/statements I posted of six of the first officers on the scene describe a partially eaten piece of chicken and a small lunch sack on top of one of the stacks of boxes that formed the 'back wall' of the SN - that is a fact.
Brewer and Haygood also mention bottle of Dr. Pepper - that is a fact.
Four of the officers testified before the WC about the lunch remains - that is a fact.
The testimonies/statements of all six men regarding this issue were completely ignored by the WC - that is a fact.
I don't accept your suggestion that the discovery of the lunch remains on the SN and that this fact was completely ignored by the WC are "inconsistencies that are normal".
The fact that the lunch remains were found on top of the SN has a domino effect of ramifications that destroys the WC's narrative. The testimonies/statements of these six officers is proof that Bonnie Ray was less than truthful about where he had his lunch (just as he was less than truthful in his DPD affidavit about even being on the 6th floor).
The only lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor were those attributed to Bonnie Ray and they were initially discovered on the SN.
You may think this is trivial but it's not.
That's why the WC completely omitted any mention of the testimonies of these men.
This omission is a fact you cannot deny.
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:D Is there a deli nearby, I can get one of them "chicken-bone" sandwiches?
You do realize, of course, that Bonnie Ray Williams specifically described a chicken-bone sandwich?
Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.
Wow, the WC didn't pursue the critical chicken-bone issue to the full satisfaction of CTers. Yep, it was a sham.
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The collective testimonies/statements I posted of six of the first officers on the scene describe a partially eaten piece of chicken and a small lunch sack on top of one of the stacks of boxes that formed the 'back wall' of the SN - that is a fact.
Brewer and Haygood also mention bottle of Dr. Pepper - that is a fact.
Four of the officers testified before the WC about the lunch remains - that is a fact.
The testimonies/statements of all six men regarding this issue were completely ignored by the WC - that is a fact.
I don't accept your suggestion that the discovery of the lunch remains on the SN and that this fact was completely ignored by the WC are "inconsistencies that are normal".
The fact that the lunch remains were found on top of the SN has a domino effect of ramifications that destroys the WC's narrative. The testimonies/statements of these six officers is proof that Bonnie Ray was less than truthful about where he had his lunch (just as he was less than truthful in his DPD affidavit about even being on the 6th floor).
The only lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor were those attributed to Bonnie Ray and they were initially discovered on the SN.
You may think this is trivial but it's not.
That's why the WC completely omitted any mention of the testimonies of these men.
This omission is a fact you cannot deny.
You are confusing your interpretation and opinion with fact. The WC didn’t omit the testimonies of those men. They actually included them in their published documents for all of the world to see.
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You do realize, of course, that Bonnie Ray Williams specifically described a chicken-bone sandwich?
Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.
Wow, the WC didn't pursue the critical chicken-bone issue to the full satisfaction of CTers. Yep, it was a sham.
Wow, the WC didn't pursue the critical chicken-bone issue to the full satisfaction of CTers. Yep, it was a sham.
Why do you think the testimonies/statements of these six officers regarding the discovery of the lunch remains was omitted?
The lunch remains were found on top of the SN. How did they get there?
Why weren't they considered evidence of an accomplice?
What was Bonnie Ray doing having his lunch in the SN?
Where was Oswald during this time?
Nothing to see here folks ::)
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You are confusing your interpretation and opinion with fact. The WC didn’t omit the testimonies of those men. They actually included them in their published documents for all of the world to see.
;D
Very clever Charles.
Very slippery.
The testimonies/statements of these men are omitted from the Warren Commission Report.
The fact that the lunch remains were discovered on the SN was omitted from the conclusions of the Warren Commission.
The fact that the lunch remains were discovered on the SN was never even dealt with, as though it had never happened.
That is the omission I am clearly talking about and you should have a long hard think about your need to be so tricky.
Do you really think it was a trivial thing to omit this fact?
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You do realize, of course, that Bonnie Ray Williams specifically described a chicken-bone sandwich?
Wow, the WC didn't pursue the critical chicken-bone issue to the full satisfaction of CTers. Yep, it was a sham.
What is the critical chicken-bone issue?
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;D
Very clever Charles.
Very slippery.
The testimonies/statements of these men are omitted from the Warren Commission Report.
The fact that the lunch remains were discovered on the SN was omitted from the conclusions of the Warren Commission.
The fact that the lunch remains were discovered on the SN was never even dealt with, as though it had never happened.
That is the omission I am clearly talking about and you should have a long hard think about your need to be so tricky.
Do you really think it was a trivial thing to omit this fact?
The WC decided to publish the volumes of supporting evidence along with the report. The 26 volumes were published as soon as they could physically publish them (which was very shortly after the report was published). Think long and hard about your claim that they omitted those things, because they most certainly did not.
You may believe that the lunch remains were discovered on the sniper’s nest. That is your opinion, not fact. The evidence shows that they were discovered where they were photographed, where the crime scene investigators testified that they were discovered, where Shelley testified that they were discovered, and where BRW testified he left them. The WC apparently wanted further clarification (for their decisions regarding their conclusions) as late as May 1964 when they asked for BRW and Shelley to be re-interviewed by the FBI. This is not, I repeat not, omitting anything whatsoever.
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What is the critical chicken-bone issue?
It appears to me that this question should be addressed to Dan, the Chicken-Bone Issue Guy.
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The WC decided to publish the volumes of supporting evidence along with the report. The 26 volumes were published as soon as they could physically publish them (which was very shortly after the report was published). Think long and hard about your claim that they omitted those things, because they most certainly did not.
They are omitted from the Warren Commission Report.
They are completely ignored. There is no mention made of them as if they never made these statements.
The fact that these officers are collectively telling us that the lunch remains were found on the Sniper's Nest is completely ignored by the Warren Commission.
It is a disgraceful treatment of this testimonial evidence and an unforgivable omission.
It is a clear example of the deceit the Warren Commission narrative was built on.
You may believe that the lunch remains were discovered on the sniper’s nest. That is your opinion, not fact. The evidence shows that they were discovered where they were photographed, where the crime scene investigators testified that they were discovered, where Shelley testified that they were discovered, and where BRW testified he left them. The WC apparently wanted further clarification (for their decisions regarding their conclusions) as late as May 1964 when they asked for BRW and Shelley to be re-interviewed by the FBI. This is not, I repeat not, omitting anything whatsoever.
The evidence shows the lunch remains were originally discovered on the Sniper's Nest - that is a fact.
The testimonies and statements of six of the first responding officers is that evidence.
Your willingness to overlook this evidence comes as no surprise at all.
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:D Is there a deli nearby, I can get one of them "chicken-bone" sandwiches?
Yum!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTLWNZWN/chicken-on-bone-sandwich.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQwTJkGq/chicken-on-bone-sandwich2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1V5w8KH/chicken-on-bone-sandwich3.jpg)
JohnM
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At the risk of my sanity, I have forced myself to read this entire thread.
Why do you think the testimonies/statements of these six officers regarding the discovery of the lunch remains was omitted?
In effectively demolishing everything you say, Charles has pointed out that they weren't omitted and that the WC attempted to resolve the conflict in the testimony. The chicken-bone issue simply didn't get the attention you think it deserved in the Warren Report, and I assume this is because the WC regarded the testimony as irreconcilable and the issue as trivial.
The lunch remains were found on top of the SN. How did they get there?
It isn't 100% clear to me that this is what was being said. Even if it were, why would that inevitably be of great significance?
Why weren't they considered evidence of an accomplice?
An assassination accomplice eating chicken? Pretty casual assassination, eh? WHY ON EARTH would this be considered evidence of an accomplice?
What was Bonnie Ray doing having his lunch in the SN?
There is no reason to think he was. You are simply making every conceivable conspiracy insinuation and inference out of a piece of chicken of uncertain location and provenance. This is Conspiracy Thinking run amuck.
Where was Oswald during this time?
During the relevant time period, I believe he was in the SN. Whether a piece of chicken was there as well, either before, after or during his occupancy, is not known and never will be.
Nothing to see here folks ::)
No, not nothing. Just nothing particularly relevant or interesting.
P.S. -
You do realize that Williams originally said that he left the 6th floor, went down and got his lunch and then went up to the 5th floor (with his lunch) to watch the motorcade? Photographer Tom Alyea was ADAMANT that the lunch remains were found on the 5th floor, collected as evidence, and taken to the 6th floor. Williams thereafter changed his story to say he had eaten on the 6th floor. For all I know, he was simply confused. Anyway, I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
Here's Alyea:
Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.
One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area.
Here's the Tom Alyea page at Bart Kamp's excellent site: http://www.prayer-man.com/camera/tom-alyea/
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Bonnie Ray Williams was likely being set up to be the fall guy, if the Oswald scenario somehow fell through...
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“Though the fingerprints other than Oswald's on the boxes thus provide no indication of the presence of an accomplice at the window, two Depository employees are known to have been present briefly on the sixth floor during the period between 11:45 a.m., when the floor-laying crew stopped for lunch, and the moment of the assassination. One of these was Charles Givens, a member of the floor-laying crew, who went down on the elevator with the others and then, returned to the sixth floor to get his jacket and cigarettes. He saw Oswald walking away from the southeast corner, but saw no one else on the sixth floor at that time. He then took one of the elevators back to the first floor at approximately 11:55 a.m.”
[Warren Commission Report pg 249, 250]
The discovery of the lunch remains on the SN was simply ignored by the Warren Commission in it's report because it undermined the Oswald-Did-It [ODI] narrative they were trying to sell.
Ignoring evidence is one thing but fabricating evidence is another thing entirely. This is what happened with Charles Givens and his tale about returning to the 6th floor.
Charles Givens never returned to the 6th floor for his jacket and cigarettes. He wasn't even wearing a jacket that day:
Mr. BELIN.
Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS.
I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN.
Did you hang up your coat in that room [Domino Room], too?
Mr. GIVENS.
Yes, sir.
Givens never went back up to the 6th floor and he never saw Oswald “walking away from the southeast corner”. Givens had been questioned in detail many times before without mentioning anything about going back up to the 6th floor, let alone seeing Oswald walking away from the southeast corner. This brand new addition to his story should have come as an immense surprise to Warren Commission counsel David Belin, the lawyer interviewing Givens, instead it was treated as gospel and the fact that Givens had failed to mention it in many previous statements was simply overlooked.
This incredibly suspicious addition to Givens' story is dealt with in detail by Sylvia Meagher (“Accessories After the Fact” and “The Curious Testimony of Mr Givens”) and, in particular, by Pat Speer on his website (in the chapter entitled “Pinning The Tail On Oswald”). [https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald]
“In February 2012, I stumbled across the FBI's first teletype regarding Givens. (This teletype can be found in FBI file 62-109060 sec 9 p54 on the Mary Ferrell Foundation website.) Here, only hours after he'd been interviewed, it was claimed "Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
Speer's in-depth analysis of this issue leaves no doubt that Givens lied about returning to the 6th floor and that Warren Commission counsel David Belin was instrumental in constructing this fabrication. The whole point of this was so that the Commission could conclude the following:
Additional testimony linking Oswald with the point from which the shots were fired was provided by the testimony of Charles Givens, who was the last known employee to see Oswald inside the building prior to the assassination.
The truth is that Givens was not the last employee to see Oswald inside the building. That was Eddie Piper:
Mr. BALL.
Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from 11:30 until 12?
Mr. PIPER.
No.
Mr. BALL.
What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?
Mr. PIPER.
Just about 12 o'clock.
Mr. BALL.
And do you remember exactly what he said?
Mr. PIPER.
No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was muttering out something---I didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out.
This was a real problem for the WC's ODI narrative. They needed a window of opportunity for Oswald to assemble his rifle and prepare the SN. The only available window was in between the time the floor-laying crew broke for lunch and Bonnie Ray arriving back on the 6th floor. The very last thing they needed was for Oswald to go down to the first floor at lunch time but this is exactly what he did.
The collective testimonies and statements of the floor-laying crew reveal that around 11:45 am they broke for lunch. Everyday they had been having a race down to the first floor in the elevators. As they were passing the 5th floor Oswald called out to Givens to let him on the elevator but, presumably because he was involved in the race, Givens refused. Oswald called after them to close the gate on the elevator so he could call it back up.
Far from hiding in the shadows, biding his time, Oswald was looking to come down to the first floor.
Piper's testimony confirms he did that.
At around 12:00 pm Oswald was on the first floor and Bonnie Ray was on his way up to the 6th floor (presumably to have his lunch in the Sniper's Nest!)
This narrative had to be changed so in stepped Givens with his obvious fabrication and out went Piper's testimony. The pattern of 'ignored testimony' features heavily with the WC.
The WC could now claim that the last employee to see Oswald saw him on the 6th floor somewhere near the southeast corner. Oswald could now assemble his rifle, prepare the SN and silently hide for almost half an hour while Bonnie Ray had his lunch (sat right next to him?).
Anyone genuinely interested in this should check out the work of Meagher and Speer.
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At the risk of my sanity, I have forced myself to read this entire thread.
In effectively demolishing everything you say, Charles has pointed out that they weren't omitted and that the WC attempted to resolve the conflict in the testimony. The chicken-bone issue simply didn't get the attention you think it deserved in the Warren Report, and I assume this is because the WC regarded the testimony as irreconcilable and the issue as trivial.
It isn't 100% clear to me that this is what was being said. Even if it were, why would that inevitably be of great significance?
An assassination accomplice eating chicken? Pretty casual assassination, eh? WHY ON EARTH would this be considered evidence of an accomplice?
There is no reason to think he was. You are simply making every conceivable conspiracy insinuation and inference out of a piece of chicken of uncertain location and provenance. This is Conspiracy Thinking run amuck.
During the relevant time period, I believe he was in the SN. Whether a piece of chicken was there as well, either before, after or during his occupancy, is not known and never will be.
No, not nothing. Just nothing particularly relevant or interesting.
P.S. -
You do realize that Williams originally said that he left the 6th floor, went down and got his lunch and then went up to the 5th floor (with his lunch) to watch the motorcade? Photographer Tom Alyea was ADAMANT that the lunch remains were found on the 5th floor, collected as evidence, and taken to the 6th floor. Williams thereafter changed his story to say he had eaten on the 6th floor. For all I know, he was simply confused. Anyway, I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
Here's Alyea:
Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.
One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area.
Here's the Tom Alyea page at Bart Kamp's excellent site: http://www.prayer-man.com/camera/tom-alyea/
I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
There is no uncertainty.
All six officers specifically state that the lunch remains were discovered in the southeast corner.
At least three of them state that the remains were on top of the boxes that formed the SN.
There is zero uncertainty as to where the lunch remains were originally found.
I understand why you want the testimony of these officers to go away. It's the same reason the WC wanted it to go away.
Am I overstating the importance of discovering Bonnie Ray's lunch remains on the Sniper's Nest?
I don't think so.
But I understand why you do.
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I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
There is no uncertainty.
All six officers specifically state that the lunch remains were discovered in the southeast corner.
At least three of them state that the remains were on top of the boxes that formed the SN.
There is zero uncertainty as to where the lunch remains were originally found.
I understand why you want the testimony of these officers to go away. It's the same reason the WC wanted it to go away.
Am I overstating the importance of discovering Bonnie Ray's lunch remains on the Sniper's Nest?
I don't think so.
But I understand why you do.
Good Lord, you are in the grip of 110-degree Conspiracy Fever. Did you even read Alyea's statement? He was one of the first people on the 6th floor and had absolutely no agenda. Consistent with BRW's first statement, Alyea places the chicken and bottle on the 5th floor. And you say there is ZERO UNCERTAINTY??? Let's increase the Conspiracy Fever to 115. Your six officers' statements aren't even consistent. Alyea's statement is entirely plausible. It's also entirely plausible that BRW, a minimum-wage Black guy and surely not the sharpest tool in the shed, might become confused or even intimidated into changing his story to fit the 6th floor narrative - but so what?
And now we have Jake suggesting BRW was the alternative patsy if "the Oswald scenario" fell through. What on earth would this even MEAN??? We will assign Jake a Conspiracy Fever of, oh, we'll say 142.9.
Are you folks serious? Are you so devoid of rationality (well, Conspiracy Fever does have that effect) that you really can't see that you're spouting nonsense of the first magnitude??? BTW, what happened to the "simple" LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley conspiracy - lost interest in THAT pretty fast, eh? So now we're on to Chicken Bone Bonnie, International Man of Mystery and Assassination Accomplice. ::)
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I always thought it was a little strange that Williams would go to the 6th floor to watch the parade with his mates but not check all the windows, because after all, he went directly to the corner window on the floor directly below, now there is the possibility that he shouted out and after hearing no response simply plonked himself down in the middle of the floor and waited there?
And there is the early slightly conflicting affidavits and FBI reports like where Norman on the 4th of Dec says "About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me.", could Norman be covering for Williams who actually went to the sniper's nest saw Oswald, and then had his lunch while standing behind Oswald then after hearing his mates finally arrive on the floor below, left and left his lunch remains on top of the surrounding boxes? I can perfectly understand why Williams would not want to get involved!
This following exchange with Williams during his testimony, when Williams is explaining what he could see from his position and Ford suddenly interjects with the "trouble with the law" comment, kind of tells me that the WC was sort of sus with the entire Williams scenario and perhaps had a similar idea as I just explained?
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.
Rowland who isn't the best eyewitness says he saw an (elderly)negro in the window marked with an "A"?
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63FM2WBZ/CE-356-Rowland-windows.jpg)
EDIT An early SS report from the first week in December, on Jarman where he says he went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor.
(https://i.ibb.co/HHcY7Fh/0397157-E-5460-47-FC-876-F-E0-C48-E1-C485-A.jpg)
EDIT 2 It seems that Williams was telling the same story that he went initially to the 6th floor as early as the day after.
(https://i.ibb.co/BcwLW9B/92-B87-EBF-2561-4-B81-A453-E4-BE71-F9-CA5-E.jpg)
JohnM
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As we can see from this thread, there is NO UNCERTAINTY. ;D Let's all just keep repeating that ("No uncertainty, there is no uncertainty ...") until we start to believe it.
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Someone suspects fowl play! Why did the WC decline to interview Colonel Sanders (no doubt a white supremist and KGB agent) to rule him out as the assassin? What about the Hamburglar? He looks suspicious. So many questions, but never the answers.
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Someone suspects fowl play! Why did the WC decline to interview Colonel Sanders (no doubt a white supremist and KGB agent) to rule him out as the assassin? What about the Hamburglar? He looks suspicious. So many questions, but never the answers.
Anyone who supports The Traitorous Orange Bird is, at the very least, an unwitting KGB* agent.
*Today's SVR and FSB
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BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS AND THE CHICKEN BONES....
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2025/03/chicken-bones.html
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Good Lord, you are in the grip of 110-degree Conspiracy Fever. Did you even read Alyea's statement? He was one of the first people on the 6th floor and had absolutely no agenda. Consistent with BRW's first statement, Alyea places the chicken and bottle on the 5th floor. And you say there is ZERO UNCERTAINTY??? Let's increase the Conspiracy Fever to 115. Your six officers' statements aren't even consistent. Alyea's statement is entirely plausible. It's also entirely plausible that BRW, a minimum-wage Black guy and surely not the sharpest tool in the shed, might become confused or even intimidated into changing his story to fit the 6th floor narrative - but so what?
And now we have Jake suggesting BRW was the alternative patsy if "the Oswald scenario" fell through. What on earth would this even MEAN??? We will assign Jake a Conspiracy Fever of, oh, we'll say 142.9.
Are you folks serious? Are you so devoid of rationality (well, Conspiracy Fever does have that effect) that you really can't see that you're spouting nonsense of the first magnitude??? BTW, what happened to the "simple" LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley conspiracy - lost interest in THAT pretty fast, eh? So now we're on to Chicken Bone Bonnie, International Man of Mystery and Assassination Accomplice. ::)
You're starting to sound desperate, Lance.
As you well know, whatever Alyea said has no bearing on the testimonies and statements of the six officers I quoted in the OP.
You need to believe that Alyea somehow makes what these officers has to say, go away.
It doesn't.
Go back and read the OP.
Read what these officers have to say.
THERE IS ZERO UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHERE THE LUNCH REMAINS WERE DISCOVERED.
The right thing to do would be to acknowledge what these officers reported, accept it and accept the WC ignored what they had to say (a little like you're doing. Go figure.)
Why don't you give us an analysis of what the officers reported and why you think it doesn't matter ;)
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BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS AND THE CHICKEN BONES
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2025/03/chicken-bones.html
"I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right AT or IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.
I think Luke Mooney was incorrect [as were some other police officers] about the precise location where the bones were found."
I've posted what these six officers had to say about where the lunch remains were discovered in the OP.
How can you be unsure as to the precise location these men are describing?
They are clearly describing a half eaten piece of chicken and a small paper lunch sack on top of one of the stacks of boxes that form the'back wall' of the SN.
Two of them mention a bottle of Dr. Pepper in the same area.
There is zero uncertainty as to what they're saying and it is not surprising in the least that many LNers are having a problem with it.
John Mytton is the only LNer who is dealing with this issue honestly.
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You're starting to sound desperate, Lance.
As you well know, whatever Alyea said has no bearing on the testimonies and statements of the six officers I quoted in the OP.
You need to believe that Alyea somehow makes what these officers has to say, go away.
It doesn't.
Go back and read the OP.
Read what these officers have to say.
THERE IS ZERO UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHERE THE LUNCH REMAINS WERE DISCOVERED.
The right thing to do would be to acknowledge what these officers reported, accept it and accept the WC ignored what they had to say (a little like you're doing. Go figure.)
Why don't you give us an analysis of what the officers reported and why you think it doesn't matter ;)
Click your heels and repeat three times, "I will be rational, I will be rational, I will be rational."
Alyea's observations and statements have NO BEARING??? They would be the EXPLANATION. He says the lunch remains were found on the FIFTH floor and that he believes the officers' testimonies were untruthful efforts to be consistent with their mistaken reports. He was THERE and he expresses CERTAINTY on this. I don't know if he's correct, but to say his statement has no bearing is nonsense. Moreover, the officers' statements are not even consistent; even if they were true, they would not unequivocally establish the precise location. You likewise keep misstating the facts by your insistence the WC ignored all this. They did not ignore it. The officers' testimonies and BRW's statements are there for all to see. The WC was simply unable to resolve the inconsistencies and, like me, ultimately concluded it was unimportant. Your mantra that there is "zero uncertainty" is Conspiracy Goof wishful thinking - there is considerable uncertainty as to the location of the lunch remains and TOTAL UNCERTAINTY as to the significance, if any.
This is yet another issue that has been BEATEN TO DEATH for decades. Do you think you're breaking new ground or adding something new? WHAT'S THE POINT? If you want to expand the uncertainty about the lunch remains into BRW being a possible accomplice to the assassination, go for it - you're simply exposing the sheer irrationality of Conspiracy Thinking.
Here's an idea: Give us your theory in 50 words or less. Explain WHAT in BRW's ENTIRE LIFE would add any plausibility to him being involved in the JFKA in any way. If, in fact, he saw Oswald prepping for the JFKA and said "Oh, Lordy, Mr. Oswald, I don't know what you're about to do, but I'm gonna slide outta here and watch from the fifth floor," the significance would be WHAT? This is Conspiracy Thinking to the nth degree - take some utterly inconsequential piece of evidence and expand it into entirely speculative Evidence of Conspiracy with no regard whatsoever for context, logic or rationality.
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BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS AND THE CHICKEN BONES
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2025/03/chicken-bones.html
You do know that when you impeach Luke Mooney's claims of Specifically where the Chicken Bones were positioned on the TSBD 6th Floor, you also Impeach his finding a "CARCANO" Rifle on the TSBD 6th Floor too? If Mooney can screw up the specific location of chicken bones, he can also confuse a Carcano with a MAUSER.
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You're starting to sound desperate, Lance.
As you well know, whatever Alyea said has no bearing on the testimonies and statements of the six officers I quoted in the OP.
You need to believe that Alyea somehow makes what these officers has to say, go away.
It doesn't.
Go back and read the OP.
Read what these officers have to say.
THERE IS ZERO UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHERE THE LUNCH REMAINS WERE DISCOVERED.
The right thing to do would be to acknowledge what these officers reported, accept it and accept the WC ignored what they had to say (a little like you're doing. Go figure.)
Why don't you give us an analysis of what the officers reported and why you think it doesn't matter ;)
THERE IS ZERO UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHERE THE LUNCH REMAINS WERE DISCOVERED.
There is no uncertainty is correct. BRW stated where he ate lunch and the sack, bottle, and chicken bones were discovered there in aisle three just as he stated.
Explain exactly how you have determined this other set belonged to BRW.
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This passage from Four Days in November captures my thinking nicely. Note the bolded sentence.
During a search of the sixth floor after the assassination, a detective for the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police Department found a lunch bag with chicken bones, a piece of waxed paper, and a little piece of Fritos in it in front of the “third” double-window over from the south easternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. He also found a Dr. Pepper bottle nearby. (7 H 146, WCT Robert Lee Studebaker; CD 1245, p.84, FBI interview of Robert Studebaker on May 29, 1964) Since Bonnie Williams had chicken, Fritos, and a Dr. Pepper for lunch at that exact place, that should have been the end of it. Lieutenant J. C. Day dusted the Dr. Pepper bottle for fingerprints, and no prints of Oswald’s were found. When Day later found out the food and drink had belonged to Williams, he decided the lunch bag and Dr. Pepper bottle had no value to the case and threw the sack and bottle away. (CD 1245, p.83) Not so fast, said conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher, who said that since Day “saw no need to check the empty bottle for fingerprints other than Oswald’s, we will never know if fingerprints were on the bottle, or whose they were.” And even though Studebaker, whose job it was to search the sixth floor, saw the food and drink next to the third double-window over, and several other witnesses said they saw them in the same place (e.g., 6 H 330–331, WCT William H. Shelley), and Williams himself said that’s where he ate his lunch, Meagher proceeded to cite other witnesses who said they saw food elsewhere, for example, Luke Mooney (3H 288–289), who said he saw a piece of chicken on top of one of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest. (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, pp.39–41)
Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president? I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued.
Or, in Dan's case, that the not-wholly-consistent six officers' statements "are an end in themselves" and Alyea's statement and the internal inconsistencies in BRW's statements are irrelevant "and nothing else has to be shown or argued."
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Good Lord, you are in the grip of 110-degree Conspiracy Fever. Did you even read Alyea's statement? He was one of the first people on the 6th floor and had absolutely no agenda. Consistent with BRW's first statement, Alyea places the chicken and bottle on the 5th floor. And you say there is ZERO UNCERTAINTY??? Let's increase the Conspiracy Fever to 115. Your six officers' statements aren't even consistent. Alyea's statement is entirely plausible. It's also entirely plausible that BRW, a minimum-wage Black guy and surely not the sharpest tool in the shed, might become confused or even intimidated into changing his story to fit the 6th floor narrative - but so what?
And now we have Jake suggesting BRW was the alternative patsy if "the Oswald scenario" fell through. What on earth would this even MEAN??? We will assign Jake a Conspiracy Fever of, oh, we'll say 142.9.
Are you folks serious? Are you so devoid of rationality (well, Conspiracy Fever does have that effect) that you really can't see that you're spouting nonsense of the first magnitude??? BTW, what happened to the "simple" LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley conspiracy - lost interest in THAT pretty fast, eh? So now we're on to Chicken Bone Bonnie, International Man of Mystery and Assassination Accomplice. ::)
I accept the designation... But I just checked, it's 143 at present! Some folks need to think out of the box!!
If there actually were a conspiracy to kill the president and then a cover-up - at the level of the FBI and members of the Warren Commission - you can be absolutely certain they would not have left anything to chance - and BRW - with no clout to protect him - was just as likely a patsy as Oswald.
What is the significance of the whereabouts of the lunch?
That just might depend on which patsy you're trying to pin the deed on...
If the lunch is found in the SN, but someone could testify that Oswald already had lunch in the cafeteria, you've got a problem... Maybe this is why there is conflicting testimony on the lunch whereabouts...
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I accept the designation... But I just checked, it's 143 at present! Some folks need to think out of the box!!
If there actually were a conspiracy to kill the president and then a cover-up - at the level of the FBI and members of the Warren Commission - you can be absolutely certain they would not have left anything to chance - and BRW - with no clout to protect him - was just as likely a patsy as Oswald.
What is the significance of the whereabouts of the lunch?
That just might depend on which patsy you're trying to pin the deed on...
If the lunch is found in the SN, but someone could testify that Oswald already had lunch in the cafeteria, you've got a problem... Maybe this is why there is conflicting testimony on the lunch whereabouts...
I appreciate your good humor, Jake, because the whole JFKA Thing has become mostly just a kind-of-fun diversion to me. I hereby humbly reduce your Conspiracy Fever to 98.6. ;D Honestly, I TRULY DON'T CARE if Oswald was a patsy and the CIA was behind the whole thing. In fact, I'd LOVE it - the weirder the better! I am not among those who think the Lone Nut narrative is some sort of religious truth.
But your "leaving nothing to chance" statement cuts both ways. How would we explain the 4,000 clues that drive the conspiracy bus? While leaving nothing to chance, they were also such bunglers they left 4,000 clues?
The problem with your scenario above is that it's all speculation. Barring some bombshell - highly unlikely - we'll just never know. I have no problem with the idea that the chicken being found on the 6th floor "had to be" the WC narrative so the officers didn't look like lying fools and that BRW was more-or-less intimidated into going along (although, as John notes above, he was saying the 6th floor by the next day). I have great difficulty picturing Black, minimum-wage, employed-two-months, 20-year-old BRW as any sort of plausible accomplice or patsy.
If conspiracy theorizing were done in the vein of "of course it's all just speculation, but it's fun!" the discussions on forums such as this would be far more enjoyable. Too many LNers and CTers alike seem to feel they are promoting and defending some sort of religious truth.
For lots of people, the JFKA seems to have been some sort of life-shattering event. Researcher Walt Brown is only a couple of years older than me, and it sounded when I read his work like he practically had an emotional meltdown at the age of 15. For me, at age 13, it was nothing more than a couple of days off school to go shoot hoops. It's still just an interesting historical curiosity, a real-life Agatha Christie mystery that is kind of fun to play around with - and I welcome thinking outside the box if it's halfway plausible.
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Payette:
If conspiracy theorizing were done in the vein of "of course it's all just speculation, but it's fun!" the discussions on forums such as this would be far more enjoyable. Too many LNers and CTers alike seem to feel they are promoting and defending some sort of religious truth. For lots of people, the JFKA seems to have been some sort of life-shattering event. Researcher Walt Brown is only a couple of years older than me, and it sounded when I read his work like he practically had an emotional meltdown at the age of 15. For me, at age 13, it was nothing more than a couple of days off school to go shoot hoops. It's still just an interesting historical curiosity, a real-life Agatha Christie mystery that is kind of fun to play around with - and I welcome thinking outside the box if it's halfway plausible.
Me:
The problem is, the KGB* has made hay from the anomaly-replete assassination from Day One, and the JFKA conspiracy theories it has created and/or promulgated have, along with conspiracy theories about HIV/AIDS, the Rock Cocaine Explosion in "the Ghetto," the Moon Landings, Watergate, 9/11, the DNC Hack, and [fill in the blank] have made our body politic so cynical, apathetic and paranoiac about the government (can you say the evil, evil CIA?) that "former" KGB officer Vladimir Putin was able, with the help of Paul Manafort, GRU officer Konstantin Kilimnik, Putin's mobbed-up oligarch buddy Oleg Deripaska, Roger Stone, Harley Schlanger, Joseph Mifsud, and probable KGB agent Igor Danchenko, et al. ad nauseam, to install "useful idiot" (or worse) Donald Trump as our final President.
*Today's SVR and FSB
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Lance... yes, we shouldn't take ourselves or our theories too seriously... a real challenge for humans in general.
I think some of what drives my thinking on this subject, is knowing - or thinking I know - a little too much about some of the possible players on the stage, like LBJ and Hoover.
AND Arlen Specter's theory about the single bullet! Dang, look at the car Specter... Windshield is shot and the car molding... along with JFK and Connally... and the limo is whisked off the scene to be quickly repaired...
AND driver SS agent Bill Greer's rubbernecking and braking until the fatal shot!
AND Hoover's "exerting pressure" on his boys to quickly end their investigation and conclude that Oswald was the lone assassin...
Hoover, Greer, Specter... don't look in my face and lie to me! Yeah, that drives some of my thinking on this, too...
All right... peace!
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I think some of what drives my thinking on this subject, is knowing - or thinking I know - a little too much about some of the possible players on the stage, like LBJ and Hoover. AND Arlen Specter's theory about the single bullet! Dang, look at the car Specter... Windshield is shot and the car molding... along with JFK and Connally... and the limo is whisked off the scene to be quickly repaired. AND driver SS agent Bill Greer's rubbernecking and braking until the fatal shot! AND Hoover's "exerting pressure" on his boys to quickly end their investigation and conclude that Oswald was the lone assassin. Hoover, Greer, Specter . . .
It's too bad you're so gullible and so open to being influenced by KGB* disinformation, Maxwell.
*Today's SVR and FSB
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It's too bad you're so gullible and so open to being influenced by KGB* disinformation, Maxwell.
*Today's SVR and FSB
None of the following is disinformation... all well-documented:
AND Arlen Specter's theory about the single bullet! Dang, look at the car Specter... Windshield is shot and the car molding... along with JFK and Connally... and the limo is whisked off the scene to be quickly repaired...
AND driver SS agent Bill Greer's rubbernecking and braking until the fatal shot!
AND Hoover's "exerting pressure" on his boys to quickly end their investigation and conclude that Oswald was the lone assassin...
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None of the following is disinformation... all well-documented:
AND Arlen Specter's theory about the single bullet! Dang, look at the car Specter... Windshield is shot and the car molding... along with JFK and Connally... and the limo is whisked off the scene to be quickly repaired...
AND driver SS agent Bill Greer's rubbernecking and braking until the fatal shot!
AND Hoover's "exerting pressure" on his boys to quickly end their investigation and conclude that Oswald was the lone assassin...
All of those "incriminating things" can be explained in a non-conspiratorial way, e.g., "THE WINDSHIELD IS SHOT!!!" (don't you mean to say, ". . . with a through-and-through hole, PROVING THAT THE BULLET THAT CAUSED IT MUST HAVE COME FROM THE FRONT!!!"?).
To wit: It wasn't a through-and-through hole; the windshield (and the chrome strip) had been hit by a largish fragment from the Z-313 fatal head shot, the impact caused the laminated windshield to lose a chunk of glass from its outside layer, only, and the lead fragment left a residue of lead on the inside surface of the windshield, not the outside.
D'oh
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Lance... yes, we shouldn't take ourselves or our theories too seriously... a real challenge for humans in general.
I think some of what drives my thinking on this subject, is knowing - or thinking I know - a little too much about some of the possible players on the stage, like LBJ and Hoover.
AND Arlen Specter's theory about the single bullet! Dang, look at the car Specter... Windshield is shot and the car molding... along with JFK and Connally... and the limo is whisked off the scene to be quickly repaired...
AND driver SS agent Bill Greer's rubbernecking and braking until the fatal shot!
AND Hoover's "exerting pressure" on his boys to quickly end their investigation and conclude that Oswald was the lone assassin...
Hoover, Greer, Specter... don't look in my face and lie to me! Yeah, that drives some of my thinking on this, too...
All right... peace!
One problem is that JFK was detested by such a diverse group of organizations and individuals, and so many stood to benefit from his demise, that weaving superficially plausible conspiracy theories is easy.
Then we factor in that most of the usual suspects - LBJ, Hoover, CIA, Mafia, etc. - were fully capable of ghastly deeds, in some cases up to and including assassinations and murders.
Then we factor in some huge motives - LBJ becomes President, Hoover isn't forced into retirement, the CIA has a friend in the White House, Castro is ousted, the heat is off the Mafia and their Cuban empire is restored, revenge is had for the Bay of Pigs, the oil depletion allowance survives, etc., etc.
It all starts to look, as it once did to me, like "How could this NOT have been a conspiracy??? OF COURSE, it was - the only issue is exactly who did it and how."
However, over my decades as a lawyer my conspiracy-prone mindset was gradually subordinated to the need for real evidence, reasonable inferences and critical thinking rather than Gee Whiz speculation and leaps of logic.
The more I studied and analyzed, the more the LN perspective made sense - not rock-solid sense, not a religious belief, but simply the most plausible explanation. If ever a conspiracy theory seems more plausible, I'll change my mind.
In many ways, the CT community is its own worst enemy. The wild diversity of theories, some of the most prominent being preposterous. The focus on anomalies and inconsistencies that in themselves go nowhere and that the CTers don't even attempt to fit into a coherent theory. The obsession with the WC as though its shortcomings were somehow proof of something. The absurd effort to play defense counsel for Oswald. The venom toward the LN position as though this were a religious debate (many of the LNers being equally guilty, of course).
If there were a single, reasonably evidence-based, reasonably plausible and coherent theory, one that at least generated interest among professional historians and journals, I and pretty much everyone else would listen and perhaps be swayed. As it is, the leading conspiracy exponents simply don't generate this sort of interest and strike most reasonable people, including me, as self-promoting cranks and hucksters.
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You do know that when you impeach Luke Mooney's claims of Specifically where the Chicken Bones were positioned on the TSBD 6th Floor, you also Impeach his finding a "CARCANO" Rifle on the TSBD 6th Floor too? If Mooney can screw up the specific location of chicken bones, he can also confuse a Carcano with a MAUSER.
But Mooney didn't find the rifle. Eugene Boone did.
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If there were a single, reasonably evidence-based, reasonably plausible and coherent theory, one that at least generated interest among professional historians and journals, I and pretty much everyone else would listen and perhaps be swayed. As it is, the leading conspiracy exponents simply don't generate this sort of interest and strike most reasonable people, including me, as self-promoting cranks and hucksters.
Otherwise known as "useful idiots" in the unwitting service of "former" KGB* officer, Vladimir Putin and his favorite "useful idiot" (or worse), Donald J. Trump.
*Today's SVR and FSB
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You do know that when you impeach Luke Mooney's claims of Specifically where the Chicken Bones were positioned on the TSBD 6th Floor, you also Impeach his finding a "CARCANO" Rifle on the TSBD 6th Floor too? If Mooney can screw up the specific location of chicken bones, he can also confuse a Carcano with a MAUSER.
That’s nonsense. A witness can most certainly be wrong about one aspect of their account but be correct about another aspect.
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Click your heels and repeat three times, "I will be rational, I will be rational, I will be rational."
Alyea's observations and statements have NO BEARING??? They would be the EXPLANATION. He says the lunch remains were found on the FIFTH floor and that he believes the officers' testimonies were untruthful efforts to be consistent with their mistaken reports. He was THERE and he expresses CERTAINTY on this. I don't know if he's correct, but to say his statement has no bearing is nonsense. Moreover, the officers' statements are not even consistent; even if they were true, they would not unequivocally establish the precise location. You likewise keep misstating the facts by your insistence the WC ignored all this. They did not ignore it. The officers' testimonies and BRW's statements are there for all to see. The WC was simply unable to resolve the inconsistencies and, like me, ultimately concluded it was unimportant. Your mantra that there is "zero uncertainty" is Conspiracy Goof wishful thinking - there is considerable uncertainty as to the location of the lunch remains and TOTAL UNCERTAINTY as to the significance, if any.
This is yet another issue that has been BEATEN TO DEATH for decades. Do you think you're breaking new ground or adding something new? WHAT'S THE POINT? If you want to expand the uncertainty about the lunch remains into BRW being a possible accomplice to the assassination, go for it - you're simply exposing the sheer irrationality of Conspiracy Thinking.
Here's an idea: Give us your theory in 50 words or less. Explain WHAT in BRW's ENTIRE LIFE would add any plausibility to him being involved in the JFKA in any way. If, in fact, he saw Oswald prepping for the JFKA and said "Oh, Lordy, Mr. Oswald, I don't know what you're about to do, but I'm gonna slide outta here and watch from the fifth floor," the significance would be WHAT? This is Conspiracy Thinking to the nth degree - take some utterly inconsequential piece of evidence and expand it into entirely speculative Evidence of Conspiracy with no regard whatsoever for context, logic or rationality.
Alyea reporting lunch remains on the 5th floor has no bearing on the testimonies/statements of the six officers who discovered lunch remains on the 6th floor.
It is irrational and desperate to suggest otherwise.
There is zero uncertainty as to where these officers discovered the lunch remains,
Suggesting otherwise is also desperate and irrational.
To suggest that the WC did not ignore the testimonies/statements of these officers regarding the discovery of the lunch remains is also desperate and irrational.
These officers collectively report lunch remains discovered on the Sniper's Nest - fact.
This vitally important evidence is ignored by the WC - fact.
It's a disgrace and is just one example of the deception contained in the Warren Commission Report.
As a Lone Nutter all your eggs are in the Warren Commission basket.
All of them.
Your willingness to suggest these officers were lying is a symptom of the corner you have painted yourself into.
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As a Lone Nutter all your eggs are in the Warren Commission basket.
O'meara,
Does Vladimir Putin pay you, or do you do it for free?
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This passage from Four Days in November captures my thinking nicely. Note the bolded sentence.
During a search of the sixth floor after the assassination, a detective for the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police Department found a lunch bag with chicken bones, a piece of waxed paper, and a little piece of Fritos in it in front of the “third” double-window over from the south easternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. He also found a Dr. Pepper bottle nearby. (7 H 146, WCT Robert Lee Studebaker; CD 1245, p.84, FBI interview of Robert Studebaker on May 29, 1964) Since Bonnie Williams had chicken, Fritos, and a Dr. Pepper for lunch at that exact place, that should have been the end of it. Lieutenant J. C. Day dusted the Dr. Pepper bottle for fingerprints, and no prints of Oswald’s were found. When Day later found out the food and drink had belonged to Williams, he decided the lunch bag and Dr. Pepper bottle had no value to the case and threw the sack and bottle away. (CD 1245, p.83) Not so fast, said conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher, who said that since Day “saw no need to check the empty bottle for fingerprints other than Oswald’s, we will never know if fingerprints were on the bottle, or whose they were.” And even though Studebaker, whose job it was to search the sixth floor, saw the food and drink next to the third double-window over, and several other witnesses said they saw them in the same place (e.g., 6 H 330–331, WCT William H. Shelley), and Williams himself said that’s where he ate his lunch, Meagher proceeded to cite other witnesses who said they saw food elsewhere, for example, Luke Mooney (3H 288–289), who said he saw a piece of chicken on top of one of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest. (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, pp.39–41)
Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president? I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued.
Or, in Dan's case, that the not-wholly-consistent six officers' statements "are an end in themselves" and Alyea's statement and the internal inconsistencies in BRW's statements are irrelevant "and nothing else has to be shown or argued."
I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued.
I need to explain the relevance of the Warren Commission ignoring vital evidence in a thread entitled "The Warren Commission Sham"?
Really?
The Warren Commission was a fake investigation in that the result of the investigation had been determined before the investigation had even begun.
Oswald was the lone assassin. Hoover had determined this outcome less than 48 hours after the assassination.
The point of the Warren Commission was to construct the Oswald-Did-It narrative from the available evidence and testimonies.
This thread is going to be a compilation of the evidence/testimonies the Warren Commission had to ignore/manipulate/fabricate in order to make the Oswald-Did-It narrative work.
The discovery of lunch remains on top of the SN had to be ignored because it indicated someone other than Oswald had their lunch in the SN.
To suggest the officers lied in their testimonies and the reports they made the day after the assassination is as wild as any Tinfoil nonsense.
The fabrication of Charles Givens' 'return to the 6th floor' while ignoring the testimonies/statements of the floor-laying crew and Eddie Piper had to be done in order to create a window of opportunity for Oswald to assemble the rifle and prepare the SN. Any testimony showing that Oswald had actually come down to the first floor had to be ignored but worse than that was the fabrication of the Givens nonsense so they could say that the last employee saw Oswald on the 6th floor somewhere near the southeast corner.
The testimony of Arnold Rowland had to be discredited. His observation of the man with the rifle on the 6th floor destroyed the narrative the WC was trying to build. The sleight of hand the WC used to side-step this damning evidence demonstrates the depths they were willing to sink to in order to make the Oswald-Did-It narrative work.
The testimony of Vicki Adams also had to be discredited. This was done by stating an outright lie in the Report - that Lovelady had seen Adams on the first floor when he entered the building (Lovelady had said no such thing). They also ignored the blatant lie both Shelley and Lovelady introduced about Baker and Truly not entering the TSBD building for at least 3 minutes. The Commission knew this was a lie as they had conducted there own time trials showing Baker and Truly entered the building within seconds.
Then there is the manipulation of evidence such as CE399. Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day. CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland "subject to further proof". This proof never materialized and was never going to materialize. It was entered into evidence without being identified by anyone. The most startling aspect of this is the testimony of Darrell Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet - he was not asked a single question about the bullet itself. Not one. Even though it was a chance to finally identify CE399 he wasn't shown the bullet or a picture of it or even asked to describe it.
And then there is the mystery of Day's missing palmprint. How was it that the palmprint and black powder on the barrel of the rifle when Day sent it away had completely disappeared by the time it reached Latona? The way this issue was side-stepped reveals more deception.
These are a few things off the top of my head and that's without getting into the witnesses who should have been called.
The Warren Commission was a pantomime of deception. The illusion of an investigation attempting to uncover the truth about the assassination.
If it was the case that Oswald was the lone assassin then none of this deception would have been necessary. It would have been a simple story revealed by a straight forward investigation.
That the Warren Commission Report is rife with deception tells it's own story.
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O'meara,
Does Vladimir Putin pay you, or do you do it for free?
;D
Tommy the Commie strikes again!
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I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued.
I need to explain the relevance of the Warren Commission ignoring vital evidence in a thread entitled "The Warren Commission Sham"?
Really?
The Warren Commission was a fake investigation in that the result of the investigation had been determined before the investigation had even begun.
Oswald was the lone assassin. Hoover had determined this outcome less than 48 hours after the assassination.
The point of the Warren Commission was to construct the Oswald-Did-It narrative from the available evidence and testimonies.
This thread is going to be a compilation of the evidence/testimonies the Warren Commission had to ignore/manipulate/fabricate in order to make the Oswald-Did-It narrative work.
The discovery of lunch remains on top of the SN had to be ignored because it indicated someone other than Oswald had their lunch in the SN.
To suggest the officers lied in their testimonies and the reports they made the day after the assassination is as wild as any Tinfoil nonsense.
The fabrication of Charles Givens' 'return to the 6th floor' while ignoring the testimonies/statements of the floor-laying crew and Eddie Piper had to be done in order to create a window of opportunity for Oswald to assemble the rifle and prepare the SN. Any testimony showing that Oswald had actually come down to the first floor had to be ignored but worse than that was the fabrication of the Givens nonsense so they could say that the last employee saw Oswald on the 6th floor somewhere near the southeast corner.
The testimony of Arnold Rowland had to be discredited. His observation of the man with the rifle on the 6th floor destroyed the narrative the WC was trying to build. The sleight of hand the WC used to side-step this damning evidence demonstrates the depths they were willing to sink to in order to make the Oswald-Did-It narrative work.
The testimony of Vicki Adams also had to be discredited. This was done by stating an outright lie in the Report - that Lovelady had seen Adams on the first floor when he entered the building (Lovelady had said no such thing). They also ignored the blatant lie both Shelley and Lovelady introduced about Baker and Truly not entering the TSBD building for at least 3 minutes. The Commission knew this was a lie as they had conducted there own time trials showing Baker and Truly entered the building within seconds.
Then there is the manipulation of evidence such as CE399. Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day. CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland "subject to further proof". This proof never materialized and was never going to materialize. It was entered into evidence without being identified by anyone. The most startling aspect of this is the testimony of Darrell Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet - he was not asked a single question about the bullet itself. Not one. Even though it was a chance to finally identify CE399 he wasn't shown the bullet or a picture of it or even asked to describe it.
And then there is the mystery of Day's missing palmprint. How was it that the palmprint and black powder on the barrel of the rifle when Day sent it away had completely disappeared by the time it reached Latona? The way this issue was side-stepped reveals more deception.
These are a few things off the top of my head and that's without getting into the witnesses who should have been called.
The Warren Commission was a pantomime of deception. The illusion of an investigation attempting to uncover the truth about the assassination.
If it was the case that Oswald was the lone assassin then none of this deception would have been necessary. It would have been a simple story revealed by a straight forward investigation.
That the Warren Commission Report is rife with deception tells it's own story.
Explain again how you know the chicken bones were BRW’s. Bear in mind Mr. Shelley stated where he saw the lunch in the third aisle, and he also shed light on the whole chicken lunch story. As in:
“ Mr. SHELLEY - .... those colored boys are always eating chicken.”
Nice recap of all of the other failed attempts to prove the WC was misleading the world.
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Alyea reporting lunch remains on the 5th floor has no bearing on the testimonies/statements of the six officers who discovered lunch remains on the 6th floor.
It is irrational and desperate to suggest otherwise.
There is zero uncertainty as to where these officers discovered the lunch remains,
Suggesting otherwise is also desperate and irrational.
To suggest that the WC did not ignore the testimonies/statements of these officers regarding the discovery of the lunch remains is also desperate and irrational.
These officers collectively report lunch remains discovered on the Sniper's Nest - fact.
This vitally important evidence is ignored by the WC - fact.
It's a disgrace and is just one example of the deception contained in the Warren Commission Report.
As a Lone Nutter all your eggs are in the Warren Commission basket.
All of them.
Your willingness to suggest these officers were lying is a symptom of the corner you have painted yourself into.
You actually cannot see that you are making no sense?
Alyea was a respected local photographer. He had utterly no agenda to lie about anything. He insists the lunch remains were, in fact, found on the 5th floor, which just happens to be where BRW first said he ate lunch. He suggests the officers' heard an erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports, and then maintained the fiction. If true - and we'll never know, but Alyea was credible and adamant - your "facts" go poof. Moreover, as Bugliosi points out, the totality of the descriptions apart from Alyea do not place the remains where you would like them to be but rather where BRW subsequently said he left them.
In addition, as Bugliosi points out, the lunch remains, even if on the 6th floor, are of no clear significance. You are doing exactly what Bugliosi described - assigning significance to an inconsistency in the evidence while being unable to explain why it is significant. Contrary to your narrative, the WC did not ignore the inconsistency but attempted to resolve it and then left it in the record for all to see. The HSCA likewise failed to see the significance you now see. As a reasonably sane and rational individual, it is difficult for me even to hypothesize any particular significance. And yet, this nothingburger is your lead story for the WC being a sham!
I have a difficult time believing, since I do see intelligence in your posts, that you actually cannot see the absurdity in ones like I have quoted here. "No bearing," "irrational," "desperate," "zero uncertainty," "fact" - come on, you know every one of these statements is false.
In what corner of the LN narrative does this silly issue fit? Wouldn't the WC and the LN community presumably have preferred a consistent narrative with the lunch remains either being found on the 5th floor or where BRW subsequently said, at some distance from the SN? Why would the "sham" WC not have simply cleaned up the issue instead of leaving it for all to see? Like so many CT efforts, yours just makes no sense at all, and you seemingly don't care.
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If I were accused of a crime and my attorney learned that there were memos on file showing that the Chief of Police "ordered" and "exerted pressure" on the police department to "quickly" complete its investigation, so they could issue a public report stating that I was guilty of the crime... AND my attorney didn't see these memos as probable evidence the police department was trying to cover up something, and didn't use this to argue in court for my innocence...
Well... I'll let you come up with the appropriate words to describe my attorney....
This is exactly what FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover did, just hours following the assassination... he "exerted pressure" on his bureau to "quickly" complete the investigation in order to quickly issue a public statement asserting Oswald's guilt...
I'll let you come up with the appropriate words to describe Hoover... and those who believe his report...
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If I were accused of a crime and my attorney learned that there were memos on file showing that the Chief of Police "ordered" and "exerted pressure" on the police department to "quickly" complete its investigation, so they could issue a public report stating that I was guilty of the crime... AND my attorney didn't see these memos as probable evidence the police department was trying to cover up something, and didn't use this to argue in court for my innocence...
Well... I'll let you come up with the appropriate words to describe my attorney....
This is exactly what FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover did, just hours following the assassination... he "exerted pressure" on his bureau to "quickly" complete the investigation in order to quickly issue a public statement asserting Oswald's guilt...
I'll let you come up with the appropriate words to describe Hoover... and those who believe his report...
No one is going to argue that Hoover was a saint. For purely personal reasons (i.e., LBJ was a friend and there would be no forced retirement, as well as his disdain for JFK and RFK), I'm sure he shed no tears after the assassination.
HOWEVER, it is entirely possible to put a different spin on your facts. Because of the state of relations with Russia and Cuba, and Oswald's obvious connections to both, the public leaping to a conclusion of conspiracy and demanding retribution (and the military being only too happy to provide it) was a very legitimate fear. It is not at all implausible that this was an immediate fear on the part of LBJ (as he said it was) and that he would convey this to Hoover (as he did). LBJ used this fear to convince Earl Warren to head the WC (and reportedly brought Warren to tears in so doing).
The Katzenbach memo and Hoover's statements just days after the assassination can be viewed in this non-conspiratorial light: It was important to convince the public that Oswald had acted alone to forestall any public outcry about a conspiracy - not to mention the fact that the evidence did tend to suggest he had, and he was dead anyway. Katzenbach specifically expressed concern in his memo because the public outcry was already starting. I tend to believe this is what the "wrap it up and convince the public stuff" was all about.
Are you aware that in documents released in 1977 Hoover (who died in 1972) was revealed to have expressed deep concern about a possible conspiracy. He didn't doubt the LN scenario as far as Dealey Plaza was concerned, but he was very concerned that Cuba was involved. The FBI had received letters - hoaxes, as Hoover suspected - pointing toward Cuban involvement. This NY Times article summarizes the documents: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/08/archives/hoover-was-certain-oswald-was-killer-fbi-files-dont-dispute-finding.html.
I quote:
"Two weeks after John F, Kennedy's death, J. Edgar Hoover was convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President, but he wondered whether Oswald had had help from secret conspirators in Cuba, according to bureau files released today. The documents show that Mr. Hoover had concluded within hours of Kennedy's death that Oswald had fired the fatal bullets. But the agency later obtained letters written to Oswald from Cuba, and those messages raised the questions about conspiracy that linger to this day."
"Because of the letters and the difficulty in checking their validity, Mr. Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, said, 'I urged strongly that we not reach the conclusion Oswald was the only man.'"
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"But on Dec. 12, Mr. Hoover confided to his chief aides that he was troubled by the conspiracy questions and was unsure how to resolve them. Reporting on a conversation with a caller, he wrote: 'I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters ... written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship and stating when it was all over, he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief."
"Some of the F.B.I. memos suggest that Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, then the Deputy Attorney General, was putting pressure on the bureau for a prompt public announcement that Oswald, acting alone, was the assassin. Three days after the assassination, he wrote the bureau to express concern about the growing rumors of conspiracy and said that it was important to satisfy the public that Oswald was the assassin and that no conspirators were still at large."
I believe there was (1) an immediate "public face" that Oswald was the lone assassin for the reasons stated above, (2) lingering concern about a possible conspiracy as described by the NY Times; and (3) a more legitimate investigation by the time of the WC, perhaps with a predisposition toward the LN scenario. I don't think the situation is as black-and-white, good-vs.-evil as CTers would like to make it.
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Another snip from “History Will Prove Us Right” by Howard Willens, page 408:
The process by which the commission put together its report provided one of the most convincing, although rarely explained, bases for the accuracy of its facts and the undeniable support for its conclusions. After four months of basic investigation by staff, the commission approved a proposed outline of the report at its April 30 meeting. From then through mid-September, the members received a steady flow of memos, reports, and drafts. The members consistently focused on how their conclusions on the seventy-two questions would be expressed and how the evidence to support them would be most effectively explained. Throughout the commission’s work, Warren and Rankin talked at least two or three times each week about the investigation, schedule of witnesses, interagency problems, and much more. As should be evident, there was no “rush to judgment” here. The commission supervised Rankin’s handling of the investigation on a regular basis and considered every part of the report carefully during the three months from mid-June to mid-September.
Again, if you want to know more details about the Warren Commission and how they functioned, read Willens’ book along with other books, and writings by people who were actually there and knew what went on during the investigation. Belin and Spector both have written excellent books that address these things.
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No one is going to argue that Hoover was a saint. For purely personal reasons (i.e., LBJ was a friend and there would be no forced retirement, as well as his disdain for JFK and RFK), I'm sure he shed no tears after the assassination.
HOWEVER, it is entirely possible to put a different spin on your facts. Because of the state of relations with Russia and Cuba, and Oswald's obvious connections to both, the public leaping to a conclusion of conspiracy and demanding retribution (and the military being only too happy to provide it) was a very legitimate fear. It is not at all implausible that this was an immediate fear on the part of LBJ (as he said it was) and that he would convey this to Hoover (as he did). LBJ used this fear to convince Earl Warren to head the WC (and reportedly brought Warren to tears in so doing).
The Katzenbach memo and Hoover's statements just days after the assassination can be viewed in this non-conspiratorial light: It was important to convince the public that Oswald had acted alone to forestall any public outcry about a conspiracy - not to mention the fact that the evidence did tend to suggest he had, and he was dead anyway. Katzenbach specifically expressed concern in his memo because the public outcry was already starting. I tend to believe this is what the "wrap it up and convince the public stuff" was all about.
Are you aware that in documents released in 1977 Hoover (who died in 1972) was revealed to have expressed deep concern about a possible conspiracy. He didn't doubt the LN scenario as far as Dealey Plaza was concerned, but he was very concerned that Cuba was involved. The FBI had received letters - hoaxes, as Hoover suspected - pointing toward Cuban involvement. This NY Times article summarizes the documents: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/08/archives/hoover-was-certain-oswald-was-killer-fbi-files-dont-dispute-finding.html.
I quote:
"Two weeks after John F, Kennedy's death, J. Edgar Hoover was convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President, but he wondered whether Oswald had had help from secret conspirators in Cuba, according to bureau files released today. The documents show that Mr. Hoover had concluded within hours of Kennedy's death that Oswald had fired the fatal bullets. But the agency later obtained letters written to Oswald from Cuba, and those messages raised the questions about conspiracy that linger to this day."
"Because of the letters and the difficulty in checking their validity, Mr. Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, said, 'I urged strongly that we not reach the conclusion Oswald was the only man.'"
...
"But on Dec. 12, Mr. Hoover confided to his chief aides that he was troubled by the conspiracy questions and was unsure how to resolve them. Reporting on a conversation with a caller, he wrote: 'I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters ... written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship and stating when it was all over, he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief."
"Some of the F.B.I. memos suggest that Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, then the Deputy Attorney General, was putting pressure on the bureau for a prompt public announcement that Oswald, acting alone, was the assassin. Three days after the assassination, he wrote the bureau to express concern about the growing rumors of conspiracy and said that it was important to satisfy the public that Oswald was the assassin and that no conspirators were still at large."
I believe there was (1) an immediate "public face" that Oswald was the lone assassin for the reasons stated above, (2) lingering concern about a possible conspiracy as described by the NY Times; and (3) a more legitimate investigation by the time of the WC, perhaps with a predisposition toward the LN scenario. I don't think the situation is as black-and-white, good-vs.-evil as CTers would like to make it.
Yes, as an attorney I'm sure you know there are multiple ways to spin facts, as attorneys do every day.
While we're looking at motives and intent, consider this spin:
LBJ was a bully and loved his political power, and he knew that JFK and brother Bobby had solidified power in the White House, likely for years to come. His bullying, threats and characteristic intimidation are most likely what brought Warren to tears, if that happened.
Hoover was no saint as you say, and disliked JFK.
It is unwise to trust much of what either said in public or private.
A plot to kill JFK was hatched and masterminded by some powerful figures, most likely including Hoover.
Oswald was one of several potential patsy's on site in Dallas... perhaps even their number one pick. If they could just pin it on him alone, Kennedy's political power and their fear of being exposed for conspiring to kill our president, would go away.
The SPIN comes from Hoover and LBJ and Katzenbach and all who claim their "quick" and sorry "investigation," if you can even call it an investigation at all... was to avert a war with any other nation. Hogwash! They were trying to save themselves.
Suggesting that they had concern for US citizens calling for war and retribution, is simply a COVER, that a good attorney should easily point out.
As the 1976 Senate Committee states, Hoover was not concerned with the truth of the matter, or with national security, but with the reputation of his agency. SO, that is why he put pressure on his bureau to quickly pronounce Oswald guilty... and likely put pressure to see him eliminated. Dead men don't talk.
It's the players in Kennedy's murder who do all the spinning.
And, I would think most any attorney would easily dismantle Specter's single bullet theory... a specious argument designed, no doubt, to mislead and contain the assassination to one person, Oswald.
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You actually cannot see that you are making no sense?
Alyea was a respected local photographer. He had utterly no agenda to lie about anything. He insists the lunch remains were, in fact, found on the 5th floor, which just happens to be where BRW first said he ate lunch. He suggests the officers' heard an erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports, and then maintained the fiction. If true - and we'll never know, but Alyea was credible and adamant - your "facts" go poof. Moreover, as Bugliosi points out, the totality of the descriptions apart from Alyea do not place the remains where you would like them to be but rather where BRW subsequently said he left them.
In addition, as Bugliosi points out, the lunch remains, even if on the 6th floor, are of no clear significance. You are doing exactly what Bugliosi described - assigning significance to an inconsistency in the evidence while being unable to explain why it is significant. Contrary to your narrative, the WC did not ignore the inconsistency but attempted to resolve it and then left it in the record for all to see. The HSCA likewise failed to see the significance you now see. As a reasonably sane and rational individual, it is difficult for me even to hypothesize any particular significance. And yet, this nothingburger is your lead story for the WC being a sham!
I see from your posts that your involvement in the JFKA amounts to a few months. To borrow your pet term, are you "desperate" for attention, desperate to be a player in the Conspiracy Game? I have a difficult time believing, since I do see intelligence in your posts, that you actually cannot see the absurdity in ones like I have quoted here. "No bearing," "irrational," "desperate," "zero uncertainty," "fact" - come on, you know every one of these statements is false.
In what corner of the LN narrative does this silly issue fit? Wouldn't the WC and the LN community presumably have preferred a consistent narrative with the lunch remains either being found on the 5th floor or where BRW subsequently said, at some distance from the SN? Why would the "sham" WC not have simply cleaned up the issue instead of leaving it for all to see? Like so many CT efforts, yours just makes no sense at all, and you seemingly don't care.
With respect to the confusion over whether the chicken bones were discovered on the 5th or 6th floor, You have to consider that this confusion is due to the cattywampus layout of the TSBD. The general assumption is that when you walk UP those steps to enter the building, you are then on the 2nd Floor. That's WRONG. You are then on the 1st Floor. There is also a Basement within this building. The 1st Floor of the TSBD is technically Not at "ground level". The windows running along the TSBD exterior are also misleading. This is why there is sometimes confusion over a shooter firing from the 5th or 6th floor window. This is how Oswald managed to simply walk out of the building. Oswald Knew his way around that building/maze. I believe the strange construction of this building is why Law Enforcement did Not "secure" the TSBD for at least 2 hrs following the Kill Shot. The Dallas Police Dept had no idea regarding the nooks and crannies that ran throughout this building. Just look at the utter confusion of DPD Officer Baker when he entered the TSBD. He needed Roy Truly to take him by-the-hand and lead him to the freight elevator/stairway.
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LBJ was a bully and loved his political power, and he knew that JFK and brother Bobby had solidified power in the White House, likely for years to come. His bullying, threats and characteristic intimidation are most likely what brought Warren to tears, if that happened.
Hoover was no saint as you say, and disliked JFK.
It is unwise to trust much of what either said in public or private.
A plot to kill JFK was hatched and masterminded by some powerful figures, most likely including Hoover.
I would simply say, bear in mind that anyone involved in the JFKA was risking certain EXECUTION. Do we really think the Vice President of the United States and the Director of the FBI were going to risk ending their 50-year careers that way?
Yes, I know all about compartmentalization, yada yada. The fact is, any "mastermind" was risking execution and putting his fate in the hands of some pretty low-level clucks who, at least according to most conspiracy theories, were world-class bunglers. Once any link in the chain failed, it was eventually going to lead to the top.
LBJ and Hoover? Possible, of course, but it seems extremely unlikely to me.
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I would simply say, bear in mind that anyone involved in the JFKA was risking certain EXECUTION. Do we really think the Vice President of the United States and the Director of the FBI were going to risk ending their 50-year careers that way?
Yes, I know all about compartmentalization, yada yada. The fact is, any "mastermind" was risking execution and putting his fate in the hands of some pretty low-level clucks who, at least according to most conspiracy theories, were world-class bunglers. Once any link in the chain failed, it was eventually going to lead to the top.
LBJ and Hoover? Possible, of course, but it seems extremely unlikely to me.
Hoover was FBI Director for decades... he most likely had enough in his files to blackmail anyone... He wasn't scared of execution and that is ridiculous to suggest.
Hoover felt insulated, most likely... AND to boot... just pull it off, Hoover, and your good friend is now president, and in a position to pardon you of anything...
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I would simply say, bear in mind that anyone involved in the JFKA was risking certain EXECUTION. Do we really think the Vice President of the United States and the Director of the FBI were going to risk ending their 50-year careers that way?
Yes, I know all about compartmentalization, yada yada. The fact is, any "mastermind" was risking execution and putting his fate in the hands of some pretty low-level clucks who, at least according to most conspiracy theories, were world-class bunglers. Once any link in the chain failed, it was eventually going to lead to the top.
LBJ and Hoover? Possible, of course, but it seems extremely unlikely to me.
If you're dealing with the CIA, you are Not dealing with "clucks". If you're dealing with the the Mafia/Trafficante (that level), you're Not dealing with "clucks". And by extension, THEY do Not deal with "clucks". Files would Not be anywhere close to "1st Call" when it comes to taking out a POTUS.
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Hoover was FBI Director for decades... he most likely had enough in his files to blackmail anyone... He wasn't scared of execution and that is ridiculous to suggest.
Hoover felt insulated, most likely... AND to boot... just pull it off, Hoover, and your good friend is now president, and in a position to pardon you of anything...
Dang, why didn't I think of that? I'm really slipping. Yeah, Hoover had compromising photos and tapes of RFK with a hooker, so he could be confident the Attorney General of the United States and the entire Kennedy family would back off on any investigation of the assassination of their brother. Ditto for every career attorney and investigator with the USDOJ, FBI and umpteen other agencies - photos and tapes of the whole seedy bunch with hookers. Explains it's all, I'll have to admit.
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Dang, why didn't I think of that? I'm really slipping. Yeah, Hoover had compromising photos and tapes of RFK with a hooker, so he could be confident the Attorney General of the United States and the entire Kennedy family would back off on any investigation of the assassination of their brother. Ditto for every career attorney and investigator with the USDOJ, FBI and umpteen other agencies - photos and tapes of the whole seedy bunch with hookers. Explains it's all, I'll have to admit.
This is sadly the case... :(
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Dang, why didn't I think of that? I'm really slipping. Yeah, Hoover had compromising photos and tapes of RFK with a hooker, so he could be confident the Attorney General of the United States and the entire Kennedy family would back off on any investigation of the assassination of their brother. Ditto for every career attorney and investigator with the USDOJ, FBI and umpteen other agencies - photos and tapes of the whole seedy bunch with hookers. Explains it's all, I'll have to admit.
This is a summary from ChatGPT:
Yes, J. Edgar Hoover, the longtime director of the FBI, was known for collecting information on numerous public figures, including Robert F. Kennedy (RFK). Hoover kept extensive secret files on politicians, activists, and celebrities, which he sometimes used to maintain influence or control.
RFK and Hoover had a tense relationship. As Attorney General under his brother President John F. Kennedy, RFK tried to rein in Hoover’s unchecked power.... Hoover, in turn, was believed to have gathered compromising information on RFK and other Kennedy family members, though the extent of this material remains debated. Some claims are likely exaggerated, but Hoover’s surveillance and files were real.
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You actually cannot see that you are making no sense?
Alyea was a respected local photographer. He had utterly no agenda to lie about anything. He insists the lunch remains were, in fact, found on the 5th floor, which just happens to be where BRW first said he ate lunch. He suggests the officers' heard an erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports, and then maintained the fiction. If true - and we'll never know, but Alyea was credible and adamant - your "facts" go poof. Moreover, as Bugliosi points out, the totality of the descriptions apart from Alyea do not place the remains where you would like them to be but rather where BRW subsequently said he left them.
In addition, as Bugliosi points out, the lunch remains, even if on the 6th floor, are of no clear significance. You are doing exactly what Bugliosi described - assigning significance to an inconsistency in the evidence while being unable to explain why it is significant. Contrary to your narrative, the WC did not ignore the inconsistency but attempted to resolve it and then left it in the record for all to see. The HSCA likewise failed to see the significance you now see. As a reasonably sane and rational individual, it is difficult for me even to hypothesize any particular significance. And yet, this nothingburger is your lead story for the WC being a sham!
I have a difficult time believing, since I do see intelligence in your posts, that you actually cannot see the absurdity in ones like I have quoted here. "No bearing," "irrational," "desperate," "zero uncertainty," "fact" - come on, you know every one of these statements is false.
In what corner of the LN narrative does this silly issue fit? Wouldn't the WC and the LN community presumably have preferred a consistent narrative with the lunch remains either being found on the 5th floor or where BRW subsequently said, at some distance from the SN? Why would the "sham" WC not have simply cleaned up the issue instead of leaving it for all to see? Like so many CT efforts, yours just makes no sense at all, and you seemingly don't care.
Having to wade through your nonsense posts is starting to get a bit tedious, Lance.
I have to assume that you are a through-and-through Lone Nutter and in highlighting the disgraceful sham that was the Warren Commission, I'm attacking your 'scripture' which you will defend with any amount of irrational nonsense.
Where to start? ::)
"Alyea was a respected local photographer. He had utterly no agenda to lie about anything. He insists the lunch remains were, in fact, found on the 5th floor, which just happens to be where BRW first said he ate lunch. He suggests the officers' heard an erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports, and then maintained the fiction. If true - and we'll never know, but Alyea was credible and adamant - your "facts" go poof."
This is the crux of your argument against the fact that six of the first officers on the scene described seeing lunch remains in the southeast corner of the 6th floor.
According to your embarrassing suggestion, all six officers heard an "erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports".
Wow!
It is a FACT that all six officers describe features specific to the southeast corner of the 6th floor as the location of the lunch remains. The notion that they were all somehow individually fooled by an erroneous newscast is truly foolish and something you should retract. Just in case you genuinely don't understand this incredibly simple point let's take a section of the report of Luke Mooney written up the day after the assassination:
I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor,
Mooney discovers the Sniper's Nest. He is describing this moment in his report. He is describing what he sees - "an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books", "three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle", "a half-eaten piece of chicken" and "expended shells on the floor".
There is zero uncertainty as to the location Mooney (or any of the other officers) is describing - the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of the 6th floor.
Are you seriously suggesting that Mooney heard an erroneous newscast that made him believe he saw a half eaten piece of chicken on one of the Sniper's Nest boxes?
Did this fictional erroneous newscast mention a half eaten piece of chicken?
Is there any evidence of this fictional and completely bogus erroneous newscast? Of course there isn't.
Fact - all six officers describe lunch remains in the location of the Sniper's Nest.
Fact - this discovery was made before Fritz, Alyea or the crime lab officers were on the scene.
Fact - the discovery of these remains on the Sniper's Nest was completely ignored by the Warren Commission
Remember, this forum is a written record and once you've posted something it stays up for all to see.
Your suggestion - that all six officers independently heard the same erroneous newscast which tricked them into believing they were seeing lunch remains on top of the stacks of boxes that formed the Sniper's Nest - is as bad as any Tinfoil nonsense I've ever heard of.
Didn't you think this through?
Aren't you embarrassed for suggesting this.
Your desperation to try to make this testimony go away is making you post some real nonsense.
"You are doing exactly what Bugliosi described - assigning significance to an inconsistency in the evidence while being unable to explain why it is significant"
Nutters have a variety of strategies for dealing with issues that reveal the lie of their narrative, most just disappear for a while and come back spouting the same nonsense when the coast is clear. Those who stick around they rely on misrepresentation, willful ignorance, selective memory loss and outright lying.
The above quote come under "selective memory loss".
Here, Lance is accusing me of being unable to explain why this issue is significant.
He made the same accusation a few posts ago [REPLY#40] and it was answered in full [REPLY#54]
I have no doubt a few more posts will go by and he will make the same accusation again.
It's really tedious.
"Why would the "sham" WC not have simply cleaned up the issue instead of leaving it for all to see? "
How, exactly, would the WC have "cleaned up the issue"?
This just seems like another nonsensical comment, another meaningless contribution to the discussion.
Whatever the case, in a previous post I asked you this:
Why don't you give us an analysis of what the officers reported and why you think it doesn't matter
Rather than your meaningless posts why not go through the testimonies/statements of the officers in the OP.
Explain where the uncertainty is in the location these officers are describing.
Explain how Alyea's report of lunch remains on the 5th floor changes the testimonies/statements of these officers.
Explain why this evidence of someone other than Oswald being in the Sniper's Nest is irrelevant.
If the only argument you can offer is that Ayeas comments mean these officers didn't really see what they saw, then you should take a step back and maybe return to the thread when the topic has moved on.
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Having to wade through your nonsense posts is starting to get a bit tedious, Lance.
I have to assume that you are a through-and-through Lone Nutter and in highlighting the disgraceful sham that was the Warren Commission, I'm attacking your 'scripture' which you will defend with any amount of irrational nonsense.
Where to start? ::)
"Alyea was a respected local photographer. He had utterly no agenda to lie about anything. He insists the lunch remains were, in fact, found on the 5th floor, which just happens to be where BRW first said he ate lunch. He suggests the officers' heard an erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports, and then maintained the fiction. If true - and we'll never know, but Alyea was credible and adamant - your "facts" go poof."
This is the crux of your argument against the fact that six of the first officers on the scene described seeing lunch remains in the southeast corner of the 6th floor.
According to your embarrassing suggestion, all six officers heard an "erroneous newscast saying the 6th floor, put this in their reports".
Wow!
It is a FACT that all six officers describe features specific to the southeast corner of the 6th floor as the location of the lunch remains. The notion that they were all somehow individually fooled by an erroneous newscast is truly foolish and something you should retract. Just in case you genuinely don't understand this incredibly simple point let's take a section of the report of Luke Mooney written up the day after the assassination:
I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor,
Mooney discovers the Sniper's Nest. He is describing this moment in his report. He is describing what he sees - "an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books", "three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle", "a half-eaten piece of chicken" and "expended shells on the floor".
There is zero uncertainty as to the location Mooney (or any of the other officers) is describing - the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of the 6th floor.
Are you seriously suggesting that Mooney heard an erroneous newscast that made him believe he saw a half eaten piece of chicken on one of the Sniper's Nest boxes?
Did this fictional erroneous newscast mention a half eaten piece of chicken?
Is there any evidence of this fictional and completely bogus erroneous newscast? Of course there isn't.
Fact - all six officers describe lunch remains in the location of the Sniper's Nest.
Fact - this discovery was made before Fritz, Alyea or the crime lab officers were on the scene.
Fact - the discovery of these remains on the Sniper's Nest was completely ignored by the Warren Commission
Remember, this forum is a written record and once you've posted something it stays up for all to see.
Your suggestion - that all six officers independently heard the same erroneous newscast which tricked them into believing they were seeing lunch remains on top of the stacks of boxes that formed the Sniper's Nest - is as bad as any Tinfoil nonsense I've ever heard of.
Didn't you think this through?
Aren't you embarrassed for suggesting this.
Your desperation to try to make this testimony go away is making you post some real nonsense.
"You are doing exactly what Bugliosi described - assigning significance to an inconsistency in the evidence while being unable to explain why it is significant"
Nutters have a variety of strategies for dealing with issues that reveal the lie of their narrative, most just disappear for a while and come back spouting the same nonsense when the coast is clear. Those who stick around they rely on misrepresentation, willful ignorance, selective memory loss and outright lying.
The above quote come under "selective memory loss".
Here, Lance is accusing me of being unable to explain why this issue is significant.
He made the same accusation a few posts ago [REPLY#40] and it was answered in full [REPLY#54]
I have no doubt a few more posts will go by and he will make the same accusation again.
It's really tedious.
"Why would the "sham" WC not have simply cleaned up the issue instead of leaving it for all to see? "
How, exactly, would the WC have "cleaned up the issue"?
This just seems like another nonsensical comment, another meaningless contribution to the discussion.
Whatever the case, in a previous post I asked you this:
Why don't you give us an analysis of what the officers reported and why you think it doesn't matter
Rather than your meaningless posts why not go through the testimonies/statements of the officers in the OP.
Explain where the uncertainty is in the location these officers are describing.
Explain how Alyea's report of lunch remains on the 5th floor changes the testimonies/statements of these officers.
Explain why this evidence of someone other than Oswald being in the Sniper's Nest is irrelevant.
If the only argument you can offer is that Alyeas comments mean these officers didn't really see what they saw, then you should take a step back and maybe return to the thread when the topic has moved on.
How many bad guys and bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up, O'meara?
Oodles and gobs?
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How many bad guys and bad gals do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up, O'meara?
Oodles and gobs?
Two for the planning, patsy-ing and shooting.
A patsy called Oswald.
No cover up, just massive incompetence and an overwhelming certainty that Oswald was their man from the moment he was arrested. The DPD seemed absolutely convinced Oswald was a lone assassin from the get go. Hoover determined Oswald was the lone assassin less than 48 hours after the assassination. Nearly all investigating went down this trail.
The Warren Commission rubber stamped the FBI's pre-determined conclusion that Oswald was the lone assassin.
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Two [bad guys or bad gals were needed] for the planning, the patsy-ing, and the shooting.
A patsy called Oswald.
No cover up, just massive incompetence and an overwhelming certainty that Oswald was their man from the moment he was arrested. The DPD seemed absolutely convinced Oswald was a lone assassin from the get go. Hoover determined Oswald was the lone assassin less than 48 hours after the assassination. Nearly all investigating went down this trail.
The Warren Commission rubber stamped the FBI's pre-determined conclusion that Oswald was the lone assassin.
Do you think the evil, evil CIA tricked Oswald into killing JFK after it found out that the motorcade would be passing by the TSBD?
If not, which bad guy or bad gal either got LHO the job in the TSBD or arranged for the motorcade to pass by it?
How many shots, if any, were fired from the 6th-floor "Sniper's Nest"?
If any, did the bad guy or bad gal who fired it (or fired them) work in the TSBD? If not, how and when did they get into the TSBD?
If any shots were fired from the sixth-floor "Sniper's Nest," was it / were they fired from the Carcano short-rifle that was found on the sixth floor?
Was the Carcano short-rifle that was found on the sixth floor Oswald's?
If not, who made it look as though it was his, and who placed his prints and fibers similar to those comprising the blanket in Mrs. Paine's garage on it?
Did CE-399 wound JFK and/or JBC?
If so, do you think CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC the way "The Single Bullet Hypothesis" says it did?
If not, how and why did the bad guys and/or bad gals deform CE-399 the way they did?
If at least one of the shots was fired from some place other than the sixth-floor "Sniper's Nest," where was it / were they fired from?
Did any of them hit JFB or JBC?
Regardless, why were only JFK and JBC wounded, and why was the only damage to the limo that which was sustained by the chrome strip in the front and the windshield (which had lost a chunk of glass from its outer layer and had a residue of lead on its inside surface)?
I could go on and on . . .
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Do you think the evil, evil CIA tricked Oswald into killing JFK after it found out that the motorcade would be passing by the TSBD?
No
If not, which bad guy or bad gal either got LHO the job in the TSBD or arranged for the motorcade to pass by it?
Any motorcade going from Love Field to the Trade Mart goes past the Depository building.
The '60 Kennedy motorcade passed directly in front of the TSBD building.
How many shots, if any, were fired from the 6th-floor "Sniper's Nest"?
I think three but Jack Nessan makes a good argument for two.
If any, did the bad guy or bad gal who fired it (or fired them) work in the TSBD? If not, how and when did they get into the TSBD?
In keeping my conspiracy theory as simple as possible I believe the assassination was 'in-house' and that the shooter was an employee of the TSBD.
If any shots were fired from the sixth-floor "Sniper's Nest," was it / were they fired from the Carcano short-rifle that was found on the sixth floor?
I believe so although I'm not certain.
Every single piece of useful ballistics evidence was tampered with in some way.
Is that suspicious or just massive incompetence, it's hard to say.
Was the Carcano short-rifle that was found on the sixth floor Oswald's?
I accept that it was.
I'm not sure I see the point of trying to frame Oswald with someone else's rifle.
If not, who made it look as though it was his, and who placed his prints and fibers similar to those comprising the blanket in Mrs. Paine's garage on it?
Doesn't require an answer as I believe it was his rifle.
Did CE-399 wound JFK and/or JBC?
Not a chance.
The admission of CE399 into evidence is one of the more disgraceful episodes in the Warren Commission sham
If so, do you think CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC the way "The Single Bullet Hypothesis" says it did?
I am totally convinced by the evidence that both JFK and JBC were simultaneously shot through by the same bullet.
There is not a chance that this bullet was CE399
If not, how and why did the bad guys and/or bad gals deform CE-399 the way they did?
You deform a bullet by firing it into something.
Test firing into goats ribs deformed the bullet in a similar way to CE399
However, firing a bullet into wrist bone smashed the bullet up in a way that CE399 most certainly was not.
If at least one of the shots was fired from some place other than the sixth-floor "Sniper's Nest," where was it / were they fired from?
I don't believe shots were fired from anywhere other than the Sniper's Nest.
Did any of them hit JFB or JBC?
Doesn't require an answer as I don't believe shots were fired from elsewhere.
Regardless, why were only JFK and JBC wounded, and why was the only damage to the limo that which was sustained by the chrome strip in the front and the windshield (which had lost a chunk of glass from its outer layer and had a residue of lead on its inside surface)?
JFK and JBC were shot through by the first bullet. This bullet fragmented upon striking JBC's wristbone.
The second bullet was the headshot. This bullet also fragmented. Some of these fragments struck the windshield and chrome trim causing Greer and Kellerman to duck from the "flurry" of shots.
I believe the third shot was pulled high, hit a concrete manhole cover and fragmented, part of this went on to injure Tague.
I could go on and on . . .
Please do, I'm just getting started.
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1) Who brought Oswald's short-rifle into the TSBD and put it on the sixth floor?
2) What "tampered" ballistics evidence prevents you from believing the bullets were fired from it?
3) Where do you believe CE-399 was found -- in the limo or in Parkland Hospital?
4) How did CE-399 end up with no damage to its nose?
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1) Who brought Oswald's short-rifle into the TSBD and put it on the sixth floor?
I know nothing about rifles but I am a bit confused about why you keep calling it a "short-rifle". As I understand it, Oswald ordered and paid for a 36" rifle but the rifle found on the 6th floor was a 40" rifle. Would they both be referred to as short-rifles?
There are a multitude of details about this case that trouble me and one is Oswald supposedly disassembling his rifle before bringing it to work. I never understood that. Even disassembled this rifle was 36" which was the same length as the rifle he originally ordered so it's not like he was bringing a package to work that wasn't the length of a rifle. And why did he feel the need to make a special case for it when he already had one at home? And when did he make this paper case? Because of the tape used he would have had to have made it at the wrapping table. When did that happen? Why would he think to do that? Troy West hardly ever left his position at the wrapping table, even during lunch. And why did Frazier and his sister constantly insist the package Oswald carried was so short it couldn't possibly have carried a rifle, disassembled or not. They were hardly more than kids being threatened by the DPD, why not just say it was a few inches longer?
Fortunately, because I don't believe Oswald took the shots and was an unwitting participant in the assassination, I don't have to bother with any of this.
The ideal situation would be to have a conspirator who arrived at the TSBD before anyone else did and had the place to himself. He could place a fully assembled rifle wherever he wanted. What we do know is that Oswald didn't assemble the rifle as he hid in the southeast corner of the 6th floor after the floor-laying crew had gone down to lunch.
2) What "tampered" ballistics evidence prevents you from believing the bullets were fired from it?
Apart from a couple of small pieces removed from JFK's head and some tiny fragments found in the limo ALL the ballistic evidence is highly dubious in terms of how it was handled.
3) Where do you believe CE-399 was found -- in the limo or in Parkland Hospital?
Neither.
4) How did CE-399 end up with no damage to its nose?
It never struck JBC's wrist bone.
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The ideal situation would be to have a conspirator arrive at the TSBD before anyone else did and have the place to himself.
A conspirator with Oswald's short-rifle?
Apart from a couple of small pieces removed from JFK's head and some tiny fragments found in the limo, ALL of the ballistic evidence is highly dubious in terms of how it was handled.
How were the large bullet fragments that were found inside the limo and matched to Oswald's short-rifle mishandled?
I believe CE-399 was found neither in the limo nor in Parkland Hospital. (paraphrased)
How did a bad guy or bad gal get it admitted into evidence?
CE-399 never struck JBC's wrist bone.
How, specifically, did your two conspirators damage CE-399, and why did they deform it so strangely?
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A conspirator with Oswald's short-rifle?
Maybe.
It saves on all the disassembled rifle shtick.
Why might a conspirator have Oswald's rifle? Because he was fooled into handing it over or he was ordered to hand it over or he handed it over willingly or....
How were the large bullet fragments that were found inside the limo and matched to Oswald's short-rifle mishandled?
They weren't found as part of an investigation.
An unnamed Secret Service agent handed them over to Deputy Chief Paul Paterni who handed them to Orrin Bartlett of the FBI.
Apparently.
How did a bad guy or bad gal get it admitted into evidence?
By handing it over to the FBI
How, specifically, did your two conspirators create the damage to CE-399, and why did they deform it so strangely?
??
The two conspirators had nothing to do with CE399 or any damage to it.
Darell Tomlinson found a bullet in Parkland. He handed this bullet to O P Wright.
The bullet Wright received was a "hunting slug" with a pointed tip. It was not CE399, Wright is adamant about that.
Wright handed this pointed bullet to SSA Johnsen, who then handed it to Chief Rowley.
All four of these men refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
Wright and Johnsen were not asked to testify by the WC.
Rowley testified but was never asked about the bullet.
Unbelievably, Darrell Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet, testified and was not asked a single question about the bullet!!
Let that sink in. He wasn't given the bullet to identify, or shown a picture of it or even asked to just describe it. What a joke.
As part of the Sham, CE399 was entered into evidence "subject to further proof". This proof never materialized and was never going to materialize.
Nobody ever vouched for CE399 as the bullet found in Parkland.
Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet.
CE399 magically appears in the chain of custody when Elmer Todd hands it over to Robert Frazier.
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Why might a conspirator have Oswald's rifle? Because he was fooled into handing it over, or he was ordered to hand it over, or he handed it over willingly, or ...
Oswald may have been fooled by whom into handing his short-rifle over to them? -- By one of your two conspirators? Can you imagine a plausible scenario in which that occurred?
Handed it over when? That morning?
Oswald may have been ordered to hand his short-rifle over to them? By one of your two conspirators that morning?
Oswald may have handed his short-rifle over willingly to one of your two conspirators? Does that sound like something Oswald would do?
The large bullet fragments weren't found as part of an investigation.
What's your definition of "investigation"?
An unnamed Secret Service agent handed them over to Deputy Chief Paul Paterni who handed them to Orrin Bartlett of the FBI.
If they lied, doesn't that make them conspirators?
By handing it over to the FBI.
Do you think the FBI conspired in the "patsy-ing," the shooting, or the cover up?
The two conspirators had nothing to do with CE399 or any damage to it.
If your two conspirators had nothing to do with CE-399, who created it, how did they create it with such unusual damage (none to the nose, but flattened in the rear and lead core extruded out its base), and who "planted" it?
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I know nothing about rifles but I am a bit confused about why you keep calling it a "short-rifle". As I understand it, Oswald ordered and paid for a 36" rifle but the rifle found on the 6th floor was a 40" rifle. Would they both be referred to as short-rifles,
[Clipped the remainder]
Tom wasn't asking you to do so, but you never flesh out your conspiracy theory sufficiently to expose how complex, unlikely and silly it is. Sure, LBJ and Byrd hatched the plot, Byrd recruited Cason without telling him of LBJ's involvement, Cason recruited Shelley without telling him of LBJ's or Byrd's involvement, Shelley recruited a TSBD employee without telling him of LBJ's, Byrd's or Cason's involvement, and poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work. Simple, uncomplicated, no problem.
We'll start at the bottom: "An employee" of the TSBD does the shooting. This employee, according to what you have suggested, is recruited by Bill Shelley. Is any known employee of the TSBD a plausible recruit? Who? On what basis? How is this employee convinced by Bill Shelley to shoot the President of the United States? What is offered to this employee for these remarkable services? Is there any evidence that this employee subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? Did this employee die a mysterious death almost immediately after the assassination or was he allowed to walk around as a ticking time bomb for years?
Who had control of Oswald while the gunman employee was doing the shooting? It obviously wasn't Shelley. Was there no control of Oswald at all - what sense would that make? How did Oswald manage to walk out of the building? Why did he walk out of the building, go home and get his pistol and all the rest? Why didn't he cooperate with the authorities once he was in custody?
How did Oswald's rifle get into the building? Did Shelley sneak into Ruth Paine's garage? Was it just pure happenstance that Oswald picked the night before the assassination to go to Ruth's for curtain rods, left the light on in the garage, and left Marina with a large amount of cash and his wedding ring?
Shelley, we are told, was recruited by TSBD President Jack Cason. How and why? What would have made Shelley amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the President of the United States? He spent his entire working life, 40 years, at the TSBD - is there any evidence he subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? He lived until 1996 - no one had any concern he might crack?
If Shelley recruited the assassin and presumably made at least minimal arrangements for the control of Oswald, how do we explain his actions during the motorcade and after the shots were fired? He just stood on the TSBD steps, walked down toward the railroad tracks with Lovelady, etc. - really? He offered nothing incriminating about his chosen patsy, no ironclad alibi for the gunman he had recruited - really? He wasn't even bright enough to clean up those incriminating chicken bones in the sniper's nest (BWAHAHA).
Cason was home eating lunch when the assassination happened. What would have made Byrd think Cason would be amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the POTUS? What did the wealthy Byrd promise Cason? Is there any evidence Cason came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted from the unbelievable risks he took? Why would Cason have thought of recruiting Shelley and why would he have trusted him? He lived until 1985 - no one had any concern he might crack?
Cason was recruited by the very wealthy David Harold Byrd. Why would Byrd have entrusted Cason with a plot that would get them both executed if discovered? Why would Byrd have trusted Cason to recruit Shelley and Shelley to recruit some TSBD employee?
Byrd, you say, either hatched the plot and sold it to LBJ or vice versa. How would this have worked? LBJ was going to trust his life to Byrd, Cason, Shelley and some TSBD employee - really? You can talk about "compartmentalization" all you want, but if this went wrong at the Shelley or gunman level everyone was going to fry. What story could the gunman have told that wouldn't implicate Shelley - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Shelley? What story could Shelley have told that wouldn't implicate Cason - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Cason? Likewise Cason with Byrd, and Byrd with LBJ?
Oh, yes, I know - Shelley was "ex-CIA," Cason was active with the American Legion, blah blah blah. It's all "Six Degrees of Separation from Kevin Bacon" sort of nonsense and doesn't begin to explain the five participants' mutual participation in a plot to kill the President of the United States.
And BTW, what was the necessity of all the post-assassination shenanigans you posit? Why did the WC need to be a sham? You appear to me to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth, or perhaps you aren't convinced by your own "simple and uncomplicated" theory?
Your theory, in my humble opinion, is completely irrational. I'm done with you, but Tom might be fascinated by your explanation as to how your theory makes any sense at all.
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Oswald may have been fooled by whom into handing his short-rifle over to them? -- By one of your two conspirators? Can you imagine a plausible scenario in which that occurred?
Handed it over when? That morning?
Oswald may have been ordered to hand his short-rifle over to them? By one of your two conspirators that morning?
Oswald may have handed his short-rifle over willingly to one of your two conspirators? Does that sound like something Oswald would do?
The point I'm making is that because there is a conspiracy Oswald is not bound to bring his rifle in on the morning of the assassination as he is in your theory.
There is no need for him to unnecessarily disassemble the rifle (something that anyone who knew anything about rifles would avoid at all costs).
Your own theory is full of holes and conjecture surrounding these points - when did Oswald assemble the rifle? When did he make the long paper sack? Why did he disassemble the rifle?
All JFKA theories are full of conjecture and speculation and yours is no different.
For aspects of the case for which there is no evidence there can only be speculation.
Oswald believed he was involved in something really serious, his actions before and after the assassination reveal that, but I don't believe he knew it was the assassination of JFK not when there were targets like LBJ or John Connally in the motorcade.
What's your definition of "investigation"?
The forensic examination and recording of a crime scene including the recorded collection of any relevant evidence.
What do you think I mean?
What's your definition of an "investigation"?
The point is there was no initial forensic examination of the limo which was part of the crime scene.
Are you satisfied with the explanation that an unnamed Secret Service agent handed over two fragments to the Deputy Chief?
If they lied, doesn't that make them conspirators?
Not necessarily.
Do you think the FBI conspired in the "patsy-ing," the shooting, or the cover up?
They didn't conspire in the patsy-ing or shooting.
As for a cover up...it's actually a difficult question to answer.
If Hoover insisted that the evidence had to show that Oswald was the lone assassin are they covering up or just following orders.
If your two conspirators had nothing to do with CE-399, who created it, how did they create it with such unusual damage (none to the nose, but flattened in the rear and lead core extruded out its base), and who "planted" it?
It wasn't planted.
It miraculously appeared in the chain of custody as if out of thin air. Don't you think that's unusual?
Don't you think it's unusual that Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to ID CE399 as the bullet they handled that day?
Or that none of them were brought before the WC to identify it?
Or that it was entered into evidence without any vouching that it was the bullet found at Parkland?
Or that Wright categorically denied CE399 was the bullet found at Parkland.
During ballistic testing, bullets were fired into goat ribs and created very similar damage to that seen on CE399.
Who created CE399? You would have to ask Elmer Todd as he seems to be the person who first handled CE399.
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Tom wasn't asking you to do so, but you never flesh out your conspiracy theory sufficiently to expose how complex, unlikely and silly it is. Sure, LBJ and Byrd hatched the plot, Byrd recruited Cason without telling him of LBJ's involvement, Cason recruited Shelley without telling him of LBJ's or Byrd's involvement, Shelley recruited a TSBD employee without telling him of LBJ's, Byrd's or Cason's involvement, and poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work. Simple, uncomplicated, no problem.
We'll start at the bottom: "An employee" of the TSBD does the shooting. This employee, according to what you have suggested, is recruited by Bill Shelley. Is any known employee of the TSBD a plausible recruit? Who? On what basis? How is this employee convinced by Bill Shelley to shoot the President of the United States? What is offered to this employee for these remarkable services? Is there any evidence that this employee subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? Did this employee die a mysterious death almost immediately after the assassination or was he allowed to walk around as a ticking time bomb for years?
Who had control of Oswald while the gunman employee was doing the shooting? It obviously wasn't Shelley. Was there no control of Oswald at all - what sense would that make? How did Oswald manage to walk out of the building? Why did he walk out of the building, go home and get his pistol and all the rest? Why didn't he cooperate with the authorities once he was in custody?
How did Oswald's rifle get into the building? Did Shelley sneak into Ruth Paine's garage? Was it just pure happenstance that Oswald picked the night before the assassination to go to Ruth's for curtain rods, left the light on in the garage, and left Marina with a large amount of cash and his wedding ring?
Shelley, we are told, was recruited by TSBD President Jack Cason. How and why? What would have made Shelley amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the President of the United States? He spent his entire working life, 40 years, at the TSBD - is there any evidence he subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? He lived until 1996 - no one had any concern he might crack?
If Shelley recruited the assassin and presumably made at least minimal arrangements for the control of Oswald, how do we explain his actions during the motorcade and after the shots were fired? He just stood on the TSBD steps, walked down toward the railroad tracks with Lovelady, etc. - really? He offered nothing incriminating about his chosen patsy, no ironclad alibi for the gunman he had recruited - really? He wasn't even bright enough to clean up those incriminating chicken bones in the sniper's nest (BWAHAHA).
Cason was home eating lunch when the assassination happened. What would have made Byrd think Cason would be amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the POTUS? What did the wealthy Byrd promise Cason? Is there any evidence Cason came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted from the unbelievable risks he took? Why would Cason have thought of recruiting Shelley and why would he have trusted him? He lived until 1985 - no one had any concern he might crack?
Cason was recruited by the very wealthy David Harold Byrd. Why would Byrd have entrusted Cason with a plot that would get them both executed if discovered? Why would Byrd have trusted Cason to recruit Shelley and Shelley to recruit some TSBD employee?
Byrd, you say, either hatched the plot and sold it to LBJ or vice versa. How would this have worked? LBJ was going to trust his life to Byrd, Cason, Shelley and some TSBD employee - really? You can talk about "compartmentalization" all you want, but if this went wrong at the Shelley or gunman level everyone was going to fry. What story could the gunman have told that wouldn't implicate Shelley - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Shelley? What story could Shelley have told that wouldn't implicate Cason - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Cason? Likewise Cason with Byrd, and Byrd with LBJ?
Oh, yes, I know - Shelley was "ex-CIA," Cason was active with the American Legion, blah blah blah. It's all "Six Degrees of Separation from Kevin Bacon" sort of nonsense and doesn't begin to explain the five participants' mutual participation in a plot to kill the President of the United States.
And BTW, what was the necessity of all the post-assassination shenanigans you posit? Why did the WC need to be a sham? You appear to me to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth, or perhaps you aren't convinced by your own "simple and uncomplicated" theory?
Your theory, in my humble opinion, is completely irrational. I'm done with you, but Tom might be fascinated by your explanation as to how your theory makes any sense at all.
"...and poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work"
Start off with lies and misrepresentation and build your case from there.
You seem upset, Lance.
Did I upset you buddy?
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In my theory, Oswald is not bound to bring his rifle in on the morning of the assassination as he is in your theory. (paraphrased)
Do you think he brought it in some other morning?
Oswald believed he was involved in something really serious; his actions before and after the assassination reveal that, but I don't believe he knew it was the assassination of JFK -- not when there were targets like LBJ or John Connally in the motorcade.
Do you think he brought it in so another person who worked in the TSBD could shoot Connally or Johnson, maybe even for him?
Are you satisfied with the explanation that an unnamed Secret Service agent handed over two fragments to the Deputy Chief?
Yes.
Why aren't you?
CE-399 wasn't planted. It miraculously appeared in the chain of custody as if out of thin air.
In other words, just like the largish bullet fragments, it was planted.
Since you believe there were only two conspirators, the planting must have been done by one of them, right?
During ballistic testing, bullets were fired into goat ribs and created very similar damage to that seen on CE399.
Were the test bullets flattened on one side towards the rear?
You would have to ask Elmer Todd as he seems to be the person who first handled CE399.
Did he say that he was the first person to handle it?
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Do you think he brought it in some other morning?
Do you think he brought it in so another person who worked in the TSBD could shoot Connally or Johnson for him?
Yes.
Why aren't you?
In other words, it was planted.
Since you believe there were only two conspirators, it must have been done by one of them, right?
Were the test bullets flattened on one side towards the rear?
Did he say that he was the first person to handle it?
This is going nowhere, which is a pity.
Time to get back to the thread:
“Though the fingerprints other than Oswald's on the boxes thus provide no indication of the presence of an accomplice at the window, two Depository employees are known to have been present briefly on the sixth floor during the period between 11:45 a.m., when the floor-laying crew stopped for lunch, and the moment of the assassination. One of these was Charles Givens, a member of the floor-laying crew, who went down on the elevator with the others and then, returned to the sixth floor to get his jacket and cigarettes. He saw Oswald walking away from the southeast corner, but saw no one else on the sixth floor at that time. He then took one of the elevators back to the first floor at approximately 11:55 a.m.”
[Warren Commission Report pg 249, 250]
The discovery of the lunch remains on the SN was simply ignored by the Warren Commission in it's report because it undermined the Oswald-Did-It [ODI] narrative they were trying to sell.
Ignoring evidence is one thing but fabricating evidence is another thing entirely. This is what happened with Charles Givens and his tale about returning to the 6th floor.
Charles Givens never returned to the 6th floor for his jacket and cigarettes. He wasn't even wearing a jacket that day:
Mr. BELIN.
Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS.
I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN.
Did you hang up your coat in that room [Domino Room], too?
Mr. GIVENS.
Yes, sir.
Givens never went back up to the 6th floor and he never saw Oswald “walking away from the southeast corner”. Givens had been questioned in detail many times before without mentioning anything about going back up to the 6th floor, let alone seeing Oswald walking away from the southeast corner. This brand new addition to his story should have come as an immense surprise to Warren Commission counsel David Belin, the lawyer interviewing Givens, instead it was treated as gospel and the fact that Givens had failed to mention it in many previous statements was simply overlooked.
This incredibly suspicious addition to Givens' story is dealt with in detail by Sylvia Meagher (“Accessories After the Fact” and “The Curious Testimony of Mr Givens”) and, in particular, by Pat Speer on his website (in the chapter entitled “Pinning The Tail On Oswald”). [https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald]
“In February 2012, I stumbled across the FBI's first teletype regarding Givens. (This teletype can be found in FBI file 62-109060 sec 9 p54 on the Mary Ferrell Foundation website.) Here, only hours after he'd been interviewed, it was claimed "Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
Speer's in-depth analysis of this issue leaves no doubt that Givens lied about returning to the 6th floor and that Warren Commission counsel David Belin was instrumental in constructing this fabrication. The whole point of this was so that the Commission could conclude the following:
Additional testimony linking Oswald with the point from which the shots were fired was provided by the testimony of Charles Givens, who was the last known employee to see Oswald inside the building prior to the assassination.
The truth is that Givens was not the last employee to see Oswald inside the building. That was Eddie Piper:
Mr. BALL.
Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from 11:30 until 12?
Mr. PIPER.
No.
Mr. BALL.
What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?
Mr. PIPER.
Just about 12 o'clock.
Mr. BALL.
And do you remember exactly what he said?
Mr. PIPER.
No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was muttering out something---I didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out.
This was a real problem for the WC's ODI narrative. They needed a window of opportunity for Oswald to assemble his rifle and prepare the SN. The only available window was in between the time the floor-laying crew broke for lunch and Bonnie Ray arriving back on the 6th floor. The very last thing they needed was for Oswald to go down to the first floor at lunch time but this is exactly what he did.
The collective testimonies and statements of the floor-laying crew reveal that around 11:45 am they broke for lunch. Everyday they had been having a race down to the first floor in the elevators. As they were passing the 5th floor Oswald called out to Givens to let him on the elevator but, presumably because he was involved in the race, Givens refused. Oswald called after them to close the gate on the elevator so he could call it back up.
Far from hiding in the shadows, biding his time, Oswald was looking to come down to the first floor.
Piper's testimony confirms he did that.
At around 12:00 pm Oswald was on the first floor and Bonnie Ray was on his way up to the 6th floor (presumably to have his lunch in the Sniper's Nest!)
This narrative had to be changed so in stepped Givens with his obvious fabrication and out went Piper's testimony. The pattern of 'ignored testimony' features heavily with the WC.
The WC could now claim that the last employee to see Oswald saw him on the 6th floor somewhere near the southeast corner. Oswald could now assemble his rifle, prepare the SN and silently hide for almost half an hour while Bonnie Ray had his lunch (sat right next to him?).
Anyone genuinely interested in this should check out the work of Meagher and Speer.
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This is going nowhere, which is a pity.
In other words, it's getting difficult for you, and you're "bailing."
Which I totally understand.
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In other words, it's getting difficult for you, and you're "bailing."
Which I totally understand.
It's getting banal and boring.
Redundant questions going nowhere.
It's getting off topic and it's not worth it.
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It's getting banal and boring.
But you're "sticking to your guns" in saying there were only two conspirators (and Oswald wasn't one of them), right?
If so, could you please tell us specifically what these two people did?
Thanks!
PS Which one fired CE-399 through a pig carcass?
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But you're "sticking to your guns" in saying there were only two conspirators (and Oswald wasn't one of them), right?
If so, could you please tell us specifically what these two people did?
Thanks!
PS Which one fired CE-399 through a pig carcass?
Your not de-railing this thread.
I'll start another and you can ask your silly questions there but on a quid pro quo basis.
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Where is the WC testimony of Dorothy Garner?
Where is the WC testimony of Sandra Stiles?
Why did FBI agent Odum deny having ever made a report that CE399 was verified?
Why was not a forensic autopsy expert selected to do the autopsy of JFK?
Bullet fragments said to be found in the limo, ( 3 under the seat of Mrs Connally) why were they not photographed in the position they were said to be in, under that seat?
Why was the limo windshield and the limo itself not kept as evidence?
Why was the paraffin test of Oswald’s cheeks negative, when an experiment with 7 persons who fire a rifle show all 7 test positive?
Why was it impossible to have a tape recording of Oswald’s interrogations and have an attorney present as well?
How could Oswalds blue jacket have been found in TSBD when Whaley the taxi driver said Oswald was wearing that jacket?
Why was Earlene Roberts not able to confirm Oswald was wearing the light gray jacket when he left the boarding house?
Why was no gunpowder residue found on the jacket, shirt sleeves or T shirt of Oswald?
Was there ever a report of gunpowder residue found in the breech, chamber or rifle grooves of the barrel of the MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD?
Are any of these questions relevant? 😳
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Why did FBI agent Odum deny having ever made a report that CE399 was verified?
Question: How old was Odum in 2002 when he allegedly said that to Gary "Rudeness" Aguilar?
Answer: Eighty-two
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Dan O'meara said:
I am totally convinced by the evidence that both JFK and JBC were simultaneously shot through by the same bullet.
There is not a chance that this bullet was CE-399
My comment:
Neutron activation analysis expert witness Vincent P. Guinn told the HSCA that the injures to Connally's wrist were very probably caused by CE-399
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Where is the WC testimony of Dorothy Garner?
Where is the WC testimony of Sandra Stiles?
Why did FBI agent Odum deny having ever made a report that CE399 was verified?
Why was not a forensic autopsy expert selected to do the autopsy of JFK?
Bullet fragments said to be found in the limo, ( 3 under the seat of Mrs Connally) why were they not photographed in the position they were said to be in, under that seat?
Why was the limo windshield and the limo itself not kept as evidence?
Why was the paraffin test of Oswald’s cheeks negative, when an experiment with 7 persons who fire a rifle show all 7 test positive?
Why was it impossible to have a tape recording of Oswald’s interrogations and have an attorney present as well?
How could Oswalds blue jacket have been found in TSBD when Whaley the taxi driver said Oswald was wearing that jacket?
Why was Earlene Roberts not able to confirm Oswald was wearing the light gray jacket when he left the boarding house?
Why was no gunpowder residue found on the jacket, shirt sleeves or T shirt of Oswald?
Was there ever a report of gunpowder residue found in the breech, chamber or rifle grooves of the barrel of the MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD?
Are any of these questions relevant? 😳
Yes Zeon, these questions are relevant to this thread and others should be making the same contribution.
Why wasn't George Lumpkin asked to testify? He was the officer in charge of the TSBD until Fritz arrived. He was driving the lead car.
Why wasn't every single witness who saw the shooting close up asked to testify or, at least, give a full statement about what they saw and heard?
Why was there an agreement by the WC to have 'pre-interviews', where witnesses could be coached or their testimony manipulated before it went on record.
Why were CE 1381's designed to limit the witnesses reports?
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Dan O'meara said:
My comment:
Neutron activation analysis expert witness Vincent P. Guinn told the HSCA that the injures to Connally's wrist were very probably caused by CE-399
And Cyril Wecht, a man who had dealt with thousands of shooting incidents, reckoned they weren't.
So what?
What's your point?
Is that the sum total of your argument against that point?
All the ballistic testing involving bullets fired into the wrists of cadavers ALL produced bullets with massively deformed noses. How did Guinn explain that?
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All the ballistic testing involving bullets fired into the wrists of cadavers ALL produced bullets with massively deformed noses. How did Guinn explain that?
What's to explain? CE399 was slowed by Kennedy's neck and further slowed by Connally's torso and this massively slowed bullet went on to only fracture Connally's wrist and in addition CE399 left behind lead fragments which indicates that CE399 tumbled backwards into Connally's wrist, whereas a full speed bullet as you rightfully point out will smash a wrist and severely deform the nose.
(https://i.ibb.co/hFsJ0JPR/Milesandthewrist1.jpg)
JohnM
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OK. And what was the condition of the alleged Carcano Bullet that rendered the Kill Shot? Yeah, thought so.
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OK. And what was the condition of the alleged Carcano Bullet that rendered the Kill Shot? Yeah, thought so.
Oops!
I'll add "Ballistics Ignoramus" to your list of failures!
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
(https://i.ibb.co/gbF1y2s0/CE-857-2-fragments-similar-to-CE-567-CE-569.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXV44Z2b/ce-399-567-569.jpg)
JohnM
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Oops!
I'll add "Ballistics Ignoramus" to your list of failures!
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
(https://i.ibb.co/gbF1y2s0/CE-857-2-fragments-similar-to-CE-567-CE-569.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXV44Z2b/ce-399-567-569.jpg)
JohnM
Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used [for the tests]?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.
This is like Groundhog Conspiracy Day. Sixty years of it. The same old stuff that is knocked down day-after-day.
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Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used [for the tests]?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.
This is like Groundhog Conspiracy Day. Sixty years of it. The same old stuff that is knocked down day-after-day.
Yeah, you've emerged to catch Royell out.
Way to go.
Where are you when the tricky questions are being asked?
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Yeah, you've emerged to catch Royell out.
Way to go.
Where are you when the tricky questions are being asked?
I think the point Royell was trying to make is that in his opinion, it makes no sense that the head shot bullet fragmented whereas CE-399 didn't.
Which can be explained by the fact that, as the autopsy doctors indicated, the head shot bullet struck near JFK's thick External Occipital Protuberance whereas CE-399 just rode along JBC's fifth rib and sideswiped his radial bone.
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Cyril Wecht reckoned the injuries to JBC's wrist weren't caused by CE-399.
How many of the other forensic pathologists on the panel of nine agreed with him?
All of the bullets fired in the experiment ended up with massively deformed noses. How did Guinn explain that?
Was the muzzle velocity of any of those test bullets significantly reduced (to compensate for the fact that CE-399 had already passed through JFK's lower neck and JBC's chest), and were any of them already tumbling when they sideswiped the cadaver's radial bone?
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No one else ever seems to be, but I was always impressed with a Carcano bullet penetrating 31" of solid pine and being more pristine than CE 399 when it was retrieved. Do I think CE 399, both its condition and its discovery, is problematical? Sure. Is CE 399 a deal-breaker? The very fact that its condition and discovery are problematical argues in favor of authenticity. What sort of whacked-out conspirators would have crafted the scenario of a suspiciously clean bullet being found in dubious circumstances at Parkland? Again, it's the same old story of the conspirators being Geniuses as the conspiracy theory requires and Dolts as the theory requires.
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No one else ever seems to be, but I was always impressed with a Carcano bullet penetrating 31" of solid pine and being more pristine than CE 399 when it was retrieved. Do I think CE 399, both its condition and its discovery, is problematical? Sure. Is CE 399 a deal-breaker? The very fact that its condition and discovery are problematical argues in favor of authenticity. What sort of whacked-out conspirators would have crafted the scenario of a suspiciously clean bullet being found in dubious circumstances at Parkland? Again, it's the same old story of the conspirators being Geniuses as the conspiracy theory requires and Dolts as the theory requires.
When I watched the PBS NOVA special, "Cold Case JFK," I was very impressed by the penetration and physical stability of that kind of bullet when fired from LHO's kind of short-rifle. I was also impressed by the fact that it has a tendency to start tumbling upon exiting something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck.
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How many of the other forensic pathologists on the panel of nine agreed with him?
The point was you said one guy said this I said one guy said the opposite. So what?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRD8pkqJ/jbcwristbullet.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The bullet on the far right is a bullet that hit a wrist bone.
That's evidence.
That's what CE399 should've looked like.
Was the muzzle velocity of any of those test bullets significantly reduced (to compensate for the fact that CE-399 had already passed through JFK's lower neck and JBC's chest), and were any of them already tumbling when they sideswiped the cadaver's radial bone?
Just to clear up your use of the word "sideswiped".
Is it your understanding that the tumbling bullet passed straight through JBC's radial bone or did the tumbling bullet just glance the bone?
Your use of the word "sideswiped" seems to suggest it was just a glancing blow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Note - the wrist bone has been shattered into multiple pieces.
Note - there is no sign of a hole through which the tumbling bullet passed.
Note - there are multiple metal fragments in a non-linear spread.
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The point was you said one guy said this I said one guy said the opposite. So what?
Do you think those eight other forensic pathologists were controlled by the evil, evil CIA?
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The point was you said one guy said this I said one guy said the opposite. So what?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRD8pkqJ/jbcwristbullet.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The bullet on the far right is a bullet that hit a wrist bone.
That's evidence.
That's what CE399 should've looked like.
Except the bullet on the right hit the radial bone neither the same way (tumbling / twirling) nor as slowly as CE-399 did.
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The point was you said one guy said this I said one guy said the opposite. So what?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRD8pkqJ/jbcwristbullet.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The bullet on the far right is a bullet that hit a wrist bone.
That's evidence.
That's what CE399 should've looked like.
However, as John Mytton said on another thread, the bullet would have been greatly slowed down after having passed through Kennedy's neck/upper torso and Connelly's torso and would have only slapped into his wrist bone.
Also Dan, how do you reply to what John said here:
Another interesting observation is why would the conspirators plant a whole bullet? In another thread Dan rightfully points out that a full speed bullet that strikes bone will radically deform and at this early stage when Tomlinson discovered CE399 as it rolled out from under a mat, they iirc were still operating on Connally.
So somehow the conspirators knew the wounds, knew a fraction of lead was left behind, knew to plant a bullet with one side flattened which is totally consistent with CE399's sideways journey through Connally's torso, knew that CE399 was slowed down as it passed through Kennedy and Connally so it only fractured Connally's wrist instead of smashing it as a full speed bullet will do and then CE399 barely had enough kinetic energy left to only partially penetrate Connally's thigh.
So either the conspirators were extremely powerful clairvoyants or CE399 was by definition the only plausible bullet that satisfied all of the requirements!
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Except the bullet on the right hit the radial bone neither the same way (tumbling / twirling) nor as slowly as CE-399 did.
Just to clear this LNer myth up.
The idea that a bullet that was tumbling and moving slower as it smashed a wrist bone would sustain damage similar to CE399 is just made up.
LNer's have a tendency to believe that if they repeat something often enough it becomes a fact - like it was Oswald who took the shots.
Produce evidence that supports your assertion Tom as I have produced evidence that supports mine.
Oh, and you forgot to clear this up...
Just to clear up your use of the word "sideswiped".
Is it your understanding that the tumbling bullet passed straight through JBC's radial bone or did the tumbling bullet just glance the bone?
Your use of the word "sideswiped" seems to suggest it was just a glancing blow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Note - the wrist bone has been shattered into multiple pieces.
Note - there is no sign of a hole through which the tumbling bullet passed.
Note - there are multiple metal fragments in a non-linear spread.
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The idea that a bullet that was tumbling and moving slower as it smashed a wrist bone would sustain damage similar to CE399 is just made up.
Although your syntax is tortuous as all heck, I think I understand what you're trying to say, so let me pose a couple of questions to you:
Do you agree that the bullet had slowed down considerably by the time it hit JBC's radial bone?
Do you agree that it was tumbling when it hit JBC's radial bone?
If not, how do you explain the 15mm x 6mm entry wound in JBC's back, the fact that it rode along JBC's fifth rib for several centimeters, and the very large exit wound in JBC's chest?
You posted earlier:
"JFK and JBC were shot through by the first bullet. This bullet fragmented upon striking JBC's wrist bone. The second bullet was the headshot. This bullet also fragmented. Some of these fragments struck the windshield and chrome trim causing Greer and Kellerman to duck from the 'flurry' of shots."
What happened to the fragments from the bullet that passed through JFK and hit JBC's wrist?
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Nobody wants to address the Real Issue: (1) You gotta bullet alleged to "yaw" all over hell's half acre while causing multiple wounds and fracturing bones along its' way. This bullet being recovered in Pristine Condition. vs (2) A bullet striking the JFK Skull resulting in an Explosion on Impact. Are these bullets the exact same ammo fired from the exact same weapon? NOPE!
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However, as John Mytton said on another thread, the bullet would have been greatly slowed down after having passed through Kennedy's neck/upper torso and Connelly's torso and would have only slapped into his wrist bone.
Hi Jim, as I've just pointed out to Tom, the idea that a tumbling bullet that had slowed down as it smashed a wrist bone, would sustain damage similar to that present on CE399, is made up. No one has ever produced any evidence to demonstrate this claim. It is just something that gets repeated so often people assume it's some kind of fact.
I believe the bullet that passed through JFK and JBC fragmented when it shattered JBC's wrist bone. When we look at the X-ray below and see how the metal fragments are scattered throughout the wound it seems obvious, to me at least, that this spread of fragments is caused by a bullet fragmenting and some of the smaller fragments being blown into the wound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
How could CE399 spread fragments throughout the wound like this?
More importantly, how could a bullet, supposedly rotating at incredibly high speed, pass directly through the wrist bone without leaving any evidence of doing so. The bullet didn't glance the wrist bone or "sideswipe" it - it passed directly through the bone.
This is what a wrist bone looks like when a bullet has passed through it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0Xn3cFK/Screenshot-351.png) (https://postimages.org/)
It doesn't matter what speed the bullet is traveling, it has to make it's way through the bone and, therefore, leave a hole as it passes through. There is absolutely no evidence that a rotating bullet passed through JBC's wrist bone.
I vaguely remember someone trying to argue that the bullet passed through JBC's wrist bone just quick enough to smash it to pieces but slow enough so that after it had made it's way through to the other side the pieces came back together again!! The mental gymnastics some people employ to "win a point" never ceases to amaze me
Final note on this - the idea that the bullet was tumbling was invented by Dr Gregory to explain the only way it was possible for CE399 to leave metal fragments in a wound. The only exposed part of CE399 from which metal fragments could have come is at the base, therefore, if the bullet was CE399 it must have entered the wound base-first, therefore it had to be rotating, therefore CE399 is a tumbling bullet. What is odd with this is that it seems to have stopped tumbling when it hit JBC's wrist because it entered JBC's thigh base-first as well as entering the wrist base-first. How is this possible if the bullet is tumbling?
Also Dan, how do you reply to what John said here:
"Another interesting observation is why would the conspirators plant a whole bullet? In another thread Dan rightfully points out that a full speed bullet that strikes bone will radically deform and at this early stage when Tomlinson discovered CE399 as it rolled out from under a mat, they iirc were still operating on Connally.
So somehow the conspirators knew the wounds, knew a fraction of lead was left behind, knew to plant a bullet with one side flattened which is totally consistent with CE399's sideways journey through Connally's torso, knew that CE399 was slowed down as it passed through Kennedy and Connally so it only fractured Connally's wrist instead of smashing it as a full speed bullet will do and then CE399 barely had enough kinetic energy left to only partially penetrate Connally's thigh.
So either the conspirators were extremely powerful clairvoyants or CE399 was by definition the only plausible bullet that satisfied all of the requirements!"
John's hypothetical situation falls down because anyone who was aware that the bullet had smashed JBC's wrist bone would've created a "plant' that was way more deformed. The idea of a rotating bullet was something that was invented way after the day of the assassination.
If conspirators had indeed created a bullet to mimic what they thought the situation was, it would imply they thought the bullet had only hit JFK and hadn't hit JBC at all.
Maybe these conspirators were aware that Hulmes and Boswell thought a bullet had been forced out of JFK by massaging his chest during CPR or something and made the plant before it was realized there was an exit wound on the neck. Maybe they were being updated by Silbert and O' Neill.
It's possible to speculate almost any scenario.
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Although your syntax is tortuous as all heck, I think I understand what you're trying to say, so let me pose a couple of questions to you:
Do you agree that the bullet had slowed down considerably by the time it hit JBC's radial bone?
It definitely slowed down.
Do you agree that it was tumbling when it hit JBC's radial bone?
No
If not, how do you explain the 15mm x 6mm entry wound in JBC's back, the fact that it rode along JBC's fifth rib for several centimeters, and the very large exit wound in JBC's chest?
There was a large exit wound in JBC's chest because so much bone/tissue was blown out of his chest causing his jacket to bulge forward for a split second, as seen in the Z-film.
It has nothing to do with a tumbling bullet.
We know this by the size of the bullet hole in the front of JBC's jacket
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Look at the size of the hole compared to the button. You're well within your rights to interpret that as evidence of a tumbling bullet but I won't be joining you on that ride.
One question though - if the bullet was rotating and it entered JBC's wrist base-first, how did it enter JBC's thigh base-first as well?
You posted earlier:
"JFK and JBC were shot through by the first bullet. This bullet fragmented upon striking JBC's wrist bone. The second bullet was the headshot. This bullet also fragmented. Some of these fragments struck the windshield and chrome trim causing Greer and Kellerman to duck from the 'flurry' of shots."
What happened to the fragments from the bullet that passed through JFK and hit JBC's wrist?
The largest fragment deflected away from the wrist and lodged itself in JBC's thigh. As he was being moved from his stretcher to the examining table it fell on the floor making a noise similar to a "wedding band" hitting the floor. This large fragment of bullet was picked up by a nurse who showed it to Henry Wade who was there visiting his good freind Connally. Wade told the nurse to give the bullet to a police officer. Apparently, she put the large bullet fragment in a small envelope and gave it to Texas Highway Patrolman Bob Nolan. At some point on it's journey this large bullet fragment magically transformed into four small bullet fragments.
A much smaller piece broke off the bullet, passed through the wrist bone and created a small slit-like exit wound in the crease of the wrist.
Question - how did a rotating bullet smashing through bone and tissue create a small slit-like exit wound as it blew through the wrist?
How unusual it was to have an exit wound that was much smaller that the entry wound ;)
Where did this small fragment go?
It probably ended up in the Secret Service mop bucket that was (quite unbelievably) used to destroy the crime scene, probably along with a lot of other ballistic evidence.
If only a proper investigation of the crime scene had been conducted.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png)
Dan,
I agree that the small hole does not fit the theory of a "tumbling" bullet, or one that has been simply tilted. So if that bullet was still following a linear trajectory how could it have left the dispersed fragments in Connelly's wrist?
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I'm assuming that part of the metal jacket sheared off, Jim.
The bullet strikes JBC's wrist bone nose-on at a slightly oblique angle.
Part of the jacket near the nose shears off and travels through the wrist bone, exiting the wrist through the small slit-like exit wound in the crease of Connally's wrist.
Small fragments of the inner bullet are blasted off in different directions, some forming a 'trail' where the fragment of jacket travels.
The large bullet fragment deflects away from the wrist and enters JBC's thigh nose-on.
A small fragment escapes from the exposed nose and is left in JBC's thigh.
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@Dan: Are you suggesting that it’s plausible that an MC 6.5 mm ball nosed bullet WAS the bullet that hit JC , only that it fragmented and was more deformed than CE 399?
If so, then what is the reason to substitute the CE399 MC bullet for an actual MC bullet that hit JC?
Imo the reason would be that the MC bullet and fragments recovered from JC could not be matched to the barrel grooves of the MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD.
And that it might be that Oswalds MC rifle was not even fired that day but was planted in the boxes sometime in the early am hours of Friday morning?
But that’s not likely what a solitary conspirator shooter intending to set up Oswald would do because it’s a lot easier to just use the MC rifle that has a mail order paper trail to Oswald’s P.O. Box. And the shells left behind and any bullets recovered be matched to the rifle.
And it seems equally unlikely that a solitary conspirator shooter would use a completely different type rifle firing conical shaped bullets while leaving behind the MC rifle, because the bullets recovered will not match the MC rifle.
So this idea that CE399 was substituted for any other type bullet that was recovered really is only plausible if there was a 2nd shooter who fired a bullet at Z224 and that bullet when found did not match the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.
It is difficult to work out the firing sequence for the 2nd shooter if the 1st shot heard by anyone was at Z224 and how to reconcile that with Norman hearing all 3 shots right above him.
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Tom Graves asks: "In your scenario, what happened to the fragments from the bullet that passed through JFK and hit JBC's wrist?"
My answer: The largest fragment deflected away from the wrist and lodged itself in JBC's thigh. As he was being moved from his stretcher to the examining table it fell on the floor making a noise similar to a "wedding band" hitting the floor. This large fragment of bullet was picked up by a nurse who showed it to Henry Wade who was there visiting his good friend Connally. Wade told the nurse to give the bullet to a police officer. Apparently, she put the large bullet fragment in a small envelope and gave it to Texas Highway Patrolman Bob Nolan. At some point on its journey this large bullet fragment magically transformed into four small bullet fragments. A much smaller piece broke off the bullet, passed through the wrist bone and created a small slit-like exit wound in the crease of the wrist. It probably ended up in the Secret Service mop bucket that was (quite unbelievably) used to destroy the crime scene, probably along with a lot of other ballistic evidence.
LOL!
Who created CE-399, how did they create it, why did they create it, and who gave it to FBI agent Elmer Todd?
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It is difficult to work out the firing sequence for the 2nd shooter if the 1st shot heard by anyone was at Z224 and how to reconcile that with Norman hearing all 3 shots right above him.
That's nothing compared to trying to understand your English.
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@Dan: Are you suggesting that it’s plausible that an MC 6.5 mm ball nosed bullet WAS the bullet that hit JC , only that it fragmented and was more deformed than CE 399?
If so, then what is the reason to substitute the CE399 MC bullet for an actual MC bullet that hit JC?
Imo the reason would be that the MC bullet and fragments recovered from JC could not be matched to the barrel grooves of the MC rifle found on the 6th floor TSBD.
And that it might be that Oswalds MC rifle was not even fired that day but was planted in the boxes sometime in the early am hours of Friday morning?
But that’s not likely what a solitary conspirator shooter intending to set up Oswald would do because it’s a lot easier to just use the MC rifle that has a mail order paper trail to Oswald’s P.O. Box. And the shells left behind and any bullets recovered be matched to the rifle.
And it seems equally unlikely that a solitary conspirator shooter would use a completely different type rifle firing conical shaped bullets while leaving behind the MC rifle, because the bullets recovered will not match the MC rifle.
So this idea that CE399 was substituted for any other type bullet that was recovered really is only plausible if there was a 2nd shooter who fired a bullet at Z224 and that bullet when found did not match the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.
It is difficult to work out the firing sequence for the 2nd shooter if the 1st shot heard by anyone was at Z224 and how to reconcile that with Norman hearing all 3 shots right above him.
I don't understand why CE399 being substituted would imply a 2nd shooter but I do agree that it is weird that these bullets, which were designed specifically not to fragment (as I understand it) keep fragmenting. The bullet that hits JFK's head smashes into countless pieces leaving a metallic trail through his brain. In any re-enactment I've ever seen the bullet never fragments and, as I understand it, during the ballistic testing done as part of the Warren Commission 'investigation' not a single bullet fragmented yet during the assassination the two bullets that found the target fragmented.
Go figure.
Obviously, this anomaly never came to the attention of the Sham.
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I don't understand why CE399 being substituted would imply a 2nd shooter but I do agree that it is weird that these bullets, which were designed specifically not to fragment (as I understand it) keep fragmenting. The bullet that hits JFK's head smashes into countless pieces leaving a metallic trail through his brain. In any re-enactment I've ever seen the bullet never fragments and, as I understand it, during the ballistic testing done as part of the Warren Commission 'investigation' not a single bullet fragmented yet during the assassination the two bullets that found the target fragmented.
Go figure.
Obviously, this anomaly never came to the attention of the Sham.
The conspirators would have had no idea about how much bullet debris was to be found in Kennedy, Connally or in the limo, so they would hardly introduce a slightly flattened bullet into the evidence trail, hoping that it would match what was found. That is just too far fetched. It really does look like CE399 was the "magic bullet". Not that this validates the lone nut theory though.
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LOL!
That's it?
That's the sum total of your contribution to the discussion?
I answer every query you put forward in detail and this is all you can manage.
Well, do you know what, Thomas, it's your time to shine.
Let's have you answering a few questions, shall we?
1] How quickly was the bullet rotating?
2] If the bullet was rotating, how did it enter JBC's wrist base-first and then his thigh base-first?
3] In the pic below explain how the rotating bullet passed through the bone without leaving an appropriately sized hole.
4] In the pic below, explain how CE399 could have left the spread of metal fragments in the wound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
5] What do you mean when you use the word "sideswiped"?
6] In the pic below, how does the size of the hole in Connally's jacket suggest the bullet was tumbling?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
7] Do you agree that the limo should have been treated like a crime scene?
8] Do you agree vital ballistic evidence may have ended up in the Secret Service's mop bucket?
That should keep you busy for a while.
Who created CE-399, how did they create it, why did they create it, and who gave it to FBI agent Elmer Todd?
Clearly, you're going to have to ask Elmer Todd.
These questions are part of your attempt to deflect from the following inconvenient truths:
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
Only a Sham would operate like this.
Your silly questions will never hide what LNers are willing to turn a blind eye to regarding this case.
LOL!! ;)
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The conspirators would have had no idea about how much bullet debris was to be found in Kennedy, Connally or in the limo, so they would hardly introduce a slightly flattened bullet into the evidence trail, hoping that it would match what was found. That is just too far fetched. It really does look like CE399 was the "magic bullet". Not that this validates the lone nut theory though.
;D
It certainly was magic, the way it appeared out of nowhere.
Even more magical is the transformation of the large bullet fragment that was handed to Highway Patrolman Bob Nolan which morphed into the four tiny bullet fragments labelled Q9.
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Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
1) Let's say that, somehow knowing with absolute certainty that CE-399 caused neither JFK's nor JBC's wounds and having heard that it had allegedly been found by in Parkland Hospital by Tomlinson in Parkland Hospital, who had allegedly given it to Wright, who had allegedly given it to Johnsen, who had allegedly given it to Rowley, who had allegedly given it to Todd (who scratched his initial on it), 1) why do you think it was shot through Oswald's short-rifle, and 2) what is its significance in the JFK Assassination case?
2) Tomlinson, Johnsen, and Rowley refused to identify seven months later, or were unable to identify seven months later for the simple reason that it was seven months later and they hadn't put their initials on it?
3) If I understand your theory correctly, you believe that the bullet that struck JBC's wrist fragmented into large pieces and left about five small fragments in the wound, itself. If I'm right about that, how do you explain the fact that none of the test bullets that were fired through the wrists of cadavers fragmented into large pieces?
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It certainly was magic, the way it appeared out of nowhere.
So you think that they just winged it by planting that slightly deformed bullet in a hope that its core loss would match the shrapnel found in Connally?
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So you think that they just winged it by planting that slightly deformed bullet in a hope that its core loss would match the shrapnel found in Connally?
He thinks it appeared magically, and he doesn't want to think about it.
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He thinks it appeared magically, and he doesn't want to think about it.
So what is the LNer fan's take on the large fragment than fell out of Connally's thigh?
The largest fragment deflected away from the wrist and lodged itself in JBC's thigh. As he was being moved from his stretcher to the examining table it fell on the floor making a noise similar to a "wedding band" hitting the floor. This large fragment of bullet was picked up by a nurse who showed it to Henry Wade who was there visiting his good freind Connally. Wade told the nurse to give the bullet to a police officer. Apparently, she put the large bullet fragment in a small envelope and gave it to Texas Highway Patrolman Bob Nolan. At some point on it's journey this large bullet fragment magically transformed into four small bullet fragments.
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So what is the LNer fan's take on the large fragment than fell out of Connally's thigh?
Are you serious?
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He thinks it appeared magically, and he doesn't want to think about it.
Freudian that even You would use the word "Magic". "Magic Bullet" anybody?
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Are you serious?
Yes. I'd like to know why that incidence is accepted by LNers.
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1. The core issue: What is the CT explanation for the conspirators planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet, fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance? Did they prepare CE 399 in advance - WHY? Was this the best they could do? Why would this goofy scenario even have OCCURRED to sane conspirators? Why would they even NEED this bullet? Was this part of the game - "Just for the hell of it, let's make this more fun by doing something SO goofy it raises a hundred red flags " - ?. It makes UTTERLY no sense. All the red flags cut exactly in the opposite direction - i.e., in favor of authenticity and against conspiracy. You have to assign conspiratorial motives because you're stuck with this evidence, but the supposed conspiratorial motives MAKE NO SENSE. If you can, provide your rational explanation for what sense a planted CE 399 makes.
2. As ballistics-types have pointed out, CE 399 is in fact seriously deformed. It is anything but pristine. The fragments in Connally mesh well with the weight of the lead lost.
3. It was Connally himself who described a sound no louder than a wedding band hitting the floor. This just happens to match pretty perfectly with the cuff link that a nurse in fact found and gave to Nellie.
4. If a bullet or large fragment fell out of Connally's thigh and went pinging on the floor, one might think Connally's doctors would have noticed or been alerted. Dr. Charles Gregory, however, was mystified that there was no such bullet or fragment: "We were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."
5. Ken Rahn in 2001 published an extensive analysis of the fragments actually found:
"The Fragments and the Reasons for Analyzing Them" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/The_fragments.html
"Why the Fragments Weren't Planted" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/Frags_not_planted.html
"What Follows from the Fragments" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/What_follows.html
Sure, the Magic Bullet is problematical, there was understandable chaos at Parkland, and there is conflict and confusion in the testimony. This is why starting point is to ask the questions posed in #1 above. Instead CTers want to make every issue into Evidence of Conspiracy, simply bypassing the somewhat larger issue of Whether and How This Makes Any Sense.
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1. The core issue: What is the CT explanation for the conspirators planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet, fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance? Did they prepare CE 399 in advance - WHY? Was this the best they could do? Why would this goofy scenario even have OCCURRED to sane conspirators? Why would they even NEED this bullet? Was this part of the game - "Just for the hell of it, let's make this more fun by doing something SO goofy it raises a hundred red flags " - ?. It makes UTTERLY no sense. All the red flags cut exactly in the opposite direction - i.e., in favor of authenticity and against conspiracy. You have to assign conspiratorial motives because you're stuck with this evidence, but the supposed conspiratorial motives MAKE NO SENSE. If you can, provide your rational explanation for what sense a planted CE 399 makes.
2. As ballistics-types have pointed out, CE 399 is in fact seriously deformed. It is anything but pristine. The fragments in Connally mesh well with the weight of the lead lost.
3. It was Connally himself who described a sound no louder than a wedding band hitting the floor. This just happens to match pretty perfectly with the cuff link that a nurse in fact found and gave to Nellie.
4. If a bullet or large fragment fell out of Connally's thigh and went pinging on the floor, one might think Connally's doctors would have noticed or been alerted. Dr. Charles Gregory, however, was mystified that there was no such bullet or fragment: "We were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."
5. Ken Rahn in 2001 published an extensive analysis of the fragments actually found:
"The Fragments and the Reasons for Analyzing Them" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/The_fragments.html
"Why the Fragments Weren't Planted" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/Frags_not_planted.html
"What Follows from the Fragments" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/What_follows.html
Sure, the Magic Bullet is problematical, there was understandable chaos at Parkland, and there is conflict and confusion in the testimony. This is why starting point is to ask the questions posed in #1 above. Instead CTers want to make every issue into Evidence of Conspiracy, simply bypassing the somewhat larger issue of Whether and How This Makes Any Sense.
Thanks Lance.
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Freudian that even You would use the word "Magic". "Magic Bullet" anybody?
For the Single Bullet Theory to work, CE-399 had to zig-zag all over the place, right, Storing?
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Yes. I'd like to know why that incidence is accepted by LNers.
The only large fragment that fell out of JBC's thigh wound was the "fragment" known as CE-399.
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It's getting banal and boring.
Redundant questions going nowhere.
It's getting off topic and it's not worth it.
Tom will waste as much time as you will allow him to with his insipid "questions".
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Tom will waste as much time as you will allow him to with his insipid "questions".
Hey Iacoletti,
Do you still think the three people who were filmed by Mr. Towner as they walked across the pergola "patio" a few minutes after the assassination were three Bermuda-shorts-wearing guys, and that one of them was either wearing a blue headscarf or holding a blue balloon on a very short string?
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Neutron activation analysis expert witness Vincent P. Guinn told the HSCA that the injures to Connally's wrist were very probably caused by CE-399
In 2004 The National Academy of Sciences came out against the ability of NAA to determine that fragments come from the same physical bullet. And the FBI no longer uses it for that purpose.
National Research Council. 2004. Forensic Analysis: Weighing Bullet Lead Evidence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. https://doi.org/10.17226/10924.
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What's to explain? CE399 was slowed by Kennedy's neck and further slowed by Connally's torso and this massively slowed bullet went on to only fracture Connally's wrist and in addition CE399 left behind lead fragments which indicates that CE399 tumbled backwards into Connally's wrist, whereas a full speed bullet as you rightfully point out will smash a wrist and severely deform the nose.
Cool story, bro. Too bad there is ZERO evidence that CE399 ever even touched Kennedy or Connally.
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The very fact that its condition and discovery are problematical argues in favor of authenticity.
Wow, talk about trying to have it both ways. If the circumstances surrounding a piece of evidence are solid then it is authentic. If the circumstances are contradictory, questionable, or inconclusive, then no Conspiracy would do that, therefore it is authentic.
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1. The core issue: What is the CT explanation for the conspirators planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet, fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance?
What makes you think CE-399 was ever at Parkland Hospital?
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Do you still think the three people who were filmed by Mr. Towner as they walked across the pergola "patio" a few minutes after the assassination were three Bermuda-shorts-wearing guys, and that one of them was either wearing a blue headscarf or holding a blue balloon on a very short string?
I never thought those things, but nice try. You made them up in a desperate attempt at an appeal to ridicule.
Do you still fantasize that you can determine the identities of indistinct blobs in blurry images, even from the backs of their indistinct, blurry heads, and that anybody should take those "identifications" seriously?
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So you think that they just winged it by planting that slightly deformed bullet in a hope that its core loss would match the shrapnel found in Connally?
You don't have a clue if any of the core of CE399 was lost.
If any was lost you don't have a clue how much.
You don't have a clue how much the pieces left in JBC weighed.
After all the evidence that's been presented against CE399 being the bullet that passed through JFK and JBC this is a pretty weak response, if you don't mind me saying Jim.
See how you get on answering a few of these questions:
1] How quickly was the bullet rotating?
2] If the bullet was rotating, how did it enter JBC's wrist base-first and then his thigh base-first?
3] In the pic below explain how the rotating bullet passed through the bone without leaving an appropriately sized hole.
4] In the pic below, explain how CE399 could have left the spread of metal fragments in the wound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
5] What do you mean when you use the word "sideswiped"?
6] In the pic below, how does the size of the hole in Connally's jacket suggest the bullet was tumbling?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
7] Do you agree that the limo should have been treated like a crime scene?
8] Do you agree vital ballistic evidence may have ended up in the Secret Service's mop bucket?
And what do you dispute about the following paragraph?
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
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1. The core issue: What is the CT explanation for the conspirators planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet, fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance? Did they prepare CE 399 in advance - WHY? Was this the best they could do? Why would this goofy scenario even have OCCURRED to sane conspirators? Why would they even NEED this bullet? Was this part of the game - "Just for the hell of it, let's make this more fun by doing something SO goofy it raises a hundred red flags " - ?. It makes UTTERLY no sense. All the red flags cut exactly in the opposite direction - i.e., in favor of authenticity and against conspiracy. You have to assign conspiratorial motives because you're stuck with this evidence, but the supposed conspiratorial motives MAKE NO SENSE. If you can, provide your rational explanation for what sense a planted CE 399 makes.
2. As ballistics-types have pointed out, CE 399 is in fact seriously deformed. It is anything but pristine. The fragments in Connally mesh well with the weight of the lead lost.
3. It was Connally himself who described a sound no louder than a wedding band hitting the floor. This just happens to match pretty perfectly with the cuff link that a nurse in fact found and gave to Nellie.
4. If a bullet or large fragment fell out of Connally's thigh and went pinging on the floor, one might think Connally's doctors would have noticed or been alerted. Dr. Charles Gregory, however, was mystified that there was no such bullet or fragment: "We were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."
5. Ken Rahn in 2001 published an extensive analysis of the fragments actually found:
"The Fragments and the Reasons for Analyzing Them" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/The_fragments.html
"Why the Fragments Weren't Planted" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/Frags_not_planted.html
"What Follows from the Fragments" - https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/What_follows.html
Sure, the Magic Bullet is problematical, there was understandable chaos at Parkland, and there is conflict and confusion in the testimony. This is why starting point is to ask the questions posed in #1 above. Instead CTers want to make every issue into Evidence of Conspiracy, simply bypassing the somewhat larger issue of Whether and How This Makes Any Sense.
What is the CT explanation for the conspirators planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet, fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance?
This shows an extreme level of ignorance regarding this issue.
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Wow, talk about trying to have it both ways. If the circumstances surrounding a piece of evidence are solid then it is authentic. If the circumstances are contradictory, questionable, or inconclusive, then no Conspiracy would do that, therefore it is authentic.
The only "circumstance" that tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists find questionable about CE-399 is where it was found (i.e., either in a part of Parkland Hospital in which JBC is known to have been taken, or, according to a revelation by a Secret Service agent whose book would soon be published -- inside the limo by him!!!) and whether or not it could have been deformed "as little as it was" after causing . . . gasp . . . all seven wounds -- the only one of which involved its striking a hard bone (sideswiping, actually) was the wound to JBC's radial bone.
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Payette asked: "What is the CT explanation for the conspirators' planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet (CE-399), fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance?"
O'meara's responded: "This shows an extreme level of ignorance regarding this issue."
My comment: Your "response," O'meara, screams that you can't answer the question.
Which is totally understandable given the fact that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC and therefore wasn't planted by one of your oodles and gobs of bad guys and . . . gasp . . . very, very bad gals.
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The only "circumstance" that tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists find questionable about CE-399 is where it was found (i.e., either in a part of Parkland Hospital in which JBC is known to have been taken, or, according to a revelation by a Secret Service agent whose book would soon be published -- inside the limo by him!!!) and whether or not it could have been deformed "as little as it was" after causing . . . gasp . . . all seven wounds -- the only one of which involved its striking a hard bone (sideswiping, actually) was the wound to JBC's radial bone.
The above is Not true. Limiting Where CE-399 was found as to being the only "questionable" issue surrounding the Pristine Bullet is baloney. O.P. Wright questioned whether CE-399 was the same bullet that he gave to SA Johnsen.
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Wow, talk about trying to have it both ways. If the circumstances surrounding a piece of evidence are solid then it is authentic. If the circumstances are contradictory, questionable, or inconclusive, then no Conspiracy would do that, therefore it is authentic.
No, not at all. Each item of evidence must be considered separately. If CTers wish to assert that CE 399 was fabricated, planted, etc., we must ask how fabricating and planting it makes any sense in the context of a conspiracy. The notion of fabricating CE 399 and then claiming that it was found at Parkland on a stretcher that we're not even sure was Connally's and then was so badly handled that there are chain-of-custody issues - what possible sense does that make? It's so silly that it does indeed argue in favor of authenticity.
What makes you think CE-399 was ever at Parkland Hospital?
You apparently cannot see that you're digging yourself into a deeper hole. If it actually wasn't at Parkland, this makes things even worse for CTers. This means the conspirators fabricated the story that it was found at Parkland under dubious circumstances. Why would they do that? What sense does any of this make? Sane conspirators with the time to prepare a bullet fired from Oswald's rifle would surely - it seems to me - have planted a more obviously deformed bullet and left it to be found in the limousine.
The double whammy for CTers is that it makes no sense to (1) fabricate a bullet that raises as many red flags as CE 399 and (2) either plant it at Parkland under circumstances that raise red flags or, worse yet, claim it was found under those circumstances.
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No, not at all. Each item of evidence must be considered separately. If CTers wish to assert that CE 399 was fabricated, planted, etc., we must ask how fabricating and planting it makes any sense in the context of a conspiracy. The notion of fabricating CE 399 and then claiming that it was found at Parkland on a stretcher that we're not even sure was Connally's and then was so badly handled that there are chain-of-custody issues - what possible sense does that make? It's so silly that it does indeed argue in favor of authenticity.
You apparently cannot see that you're digging yourself into a deeper hole. If it actually wasn't at Parkland, this makes things even worse for CTers. This means the conspirators fabricated the story that it was found at Parkland under dubious circumstances. Why would they do that? What sense does any of this make? Sane conspirators with the time to prepare a bullet fired from Oswald's rifle would surely - it seems to me - have planted a more obviously deformed bullet and left it to be found in the limousine.
The double whammy for CTers is that it makes no sense to (1) fabricate a bullet that raises as many red flags as CE 399 and (2) either plant it at Parkland under circumstances that raise red flags or, worse yet, claim it was found under those circumstances.
When you have a "Lost Bullet", all kinds of screwy things can be put into play. It's Improv Time. This assassination did Not go strictly according to Hoyle.
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Payette asked: "What is the CT explanation for the conspirators' planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet (CE-399), fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance?"
O'meara's responded: "This shows an extreme level of ignorance regarding this issue."
My comment: Your "response," O'meara, screams that you can't answer the question.
Which is totally understandable given the fact that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC and therefore wasn't planted by one of your oodles and gobs of bad guys and . . . gasp . . . very, very bad gals.
What is wrong with you?
Can you prove that CE-399 is actually the bullet that went through JFK and JBC and then ended up at Parkland Hospital?
Let me save you the trouble; YOU CAN'T and never will be able to do so. The record shows that CE-399 started it's evidentiary life in Washington when Rowley gave a bullet to Todd, who was the first person to mark it.
Perhaps you should get off your high horse and actually try to actually discuss the evidence!
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1) Let's say that, somehow knowing with absolute certainty that CE-399 caused neither JFK's nor JBC's wounds and having heard that it had allegedly been found by in Parkland Hospital by Tomlinson in Parkland Hospital, who had allegedly given it to Wright, who had allegedly given it to Johnsen, who had allegedly given it to Rowley, who had allegedly given it to Todd (who scratched his initial on it), 1) why do you think it was shot through Oswald's short-rifle, and 2) what is its significance in the JFK Assassination case?
2) Tomlinson, Johnsen, and Rowley refused to identify seven months later, or were unable to identify seven months later for the simple reason that it was seven months later and they hadn't put their initials on it?
3) If I understand your theory correctly, you believe that the bullet that struck JBC's wrist fragmented into large pieces and left about five small fragments in the wound, itself. If I'm right about that, how do you explain the fact that none of the test bullets that were fired through the wrists of cadavers fragmented into large pieces?
Very poor effort Tom. Here's your list of questions for you to answer rather than ask more inane questions:
1] How quickly was the bullet rotating?
2] If the bullet was rotating, how did it enter JBC's wrist base-first and then his thigh base-first?
3] In the pic below explain how the rotating bullet passed through the bone without leaving an appropriately sized hole.
4] In the pic below, explain how CE399 could have left the spread of metal fragments in the wound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
5] What do you mean when you use the word "sideswiped"?
6] In the pic below, how does the size of the hole in Connally's jacket suggest the bullet was tumbling?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
7] Do you agree that the limo should have been treated like a crime scene?
8] Do you agree vital ballistic evidence may have ended up in the Secret Service's mop bucket?
And what do you dispute about the following paragraph?
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
If I understand your theory correctly, you believe that the bullet that struck JBC's wrist fragmented into large pieces and left about five small fragments in the wound, itself. If I'm right about that, how do you explain the fact that none of the test bullets that were fired through the wrists of cadavers fragmented into large pieces?
How do you explain that no test bullets fragmented they way the bullet did when it hit JFK's head?
Not even you are going to deny the bullet that hit JFK's head fragmented.
Why do you believe the bullet that hit JFK's head fragmented but the bullet that hit JBC's wrist bone didn't?
Tomlinson, Johnsen, and Rowley refused to identify seven months later, or were unable to identify seven months later for the simple reason that it was seven months later and they hadn't put their initials on it?
D'uuhhh...I can't recogmize this elephant because I didn't put my initials on it ::)
They didn't put their initials on CE399 because they'd never seen it. Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all handled a pointed "hunting slug". Why do you think the WC Sham refused to ask any of these men to identify CE399? In case you're stuck, the answer is that they knew would describe a bullet that clearly was not CE399.
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What is wrong with you?
Can you prove that CE-399 is actually the bullet that went through JFK and JBC and then ended up at Parkland Hospital?
Let me save you the trouble; YOU CAN'T and never will be able to do so. The record shows that CE-399 started it's evidentiary life in Washington when Rowley gave a bullet to Todd, who was the first person to mark it.
Perhaps you should get off your high horse and actually try to actually discuss the evidence!
Weidmann,
Why do you refuse to deal with the ramifications of what you're suggesting -- that CE-399 was created by the bad guys to incriminate "patsy" Oswald?
Once again, how many bad guys and really, really bad gals were involved in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Oodles and gobs?
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No, not at all. Each item of evidence must be considered separately. If CTers wish to assert that CE 399 was fabricated, planted, etc., we must ask how fabricating and planting it makes any sense in the context of a conspiracy. The notion of fabricating CE 399 and then claiming that it was found at Parkland on a stretcher that we're not even sure was Connally's and then was so badly handled that there are chain-of-custody issues - what possible sense does that make? It's so silly that it does indeed argue in favor of authenticity.
You apparently cannot see that you're digging yourself into a deeper hole. If it actually wasn't at Parkland, this makes things even worse for CTers. This means the conspirators fabricated the story that it was found at Parkland under dubious circumstances. Why would they do that? What sense does any of this make? Sane conspirators with the time to prepare a bullet fired from Oswald's rifle would surely - it seems to me - have planted a more obviously deformed bullet and left it to be found in the limousine.
The double whammy for CTers is that it makes no sense to (1) fabricate a bullet that raises as many red flags as CE 399 and (2) either plant it at Parkland under circumstances that raise red flags or, worse yet, claim it was found under those circumstances.
The Nutter approach to the glaring fact that CE399 was not the bullet found in Parkland is to cry about "who planted it and why".
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
These facts will always come first.
These are the facts that must be addressed.
Rather than bleating on about how it couldn't possibly be this way.
Roll up! Roll up! Nutters.
Now is your chance for glory.
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The Nutter approach to the glaring fact that CE399 was not the bullet found in Parkland is to cry about "who planted it and why".
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
They refused to identify it after seven months, or, given the fact that they'd failed to put their initials on it, were unable to identify it after seven months?
PS Take some deep breaths.
In through the nose, out through the mouth . . .
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The Nutter approach to the glaring fact that CE399 was not the bullet found in Parkland is to cry about "who planted it and why".
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
None of these men were asked to identify CE399 by the Warren Commission.
Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify at all.
Rowley testified but was never asked about CE399.
Unbelievably, Tomlinson,the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland, testified AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to describe it!
FACT - CE399 was entered into evidence as the bullet found in Parkland without a single person vouching for it as such. NOBODY IDENTIFIED IT AS THE BULLET FOUND IN PARKLAND!
These facts will always come first.
These are the facts that must be addressed.
Rather than bleating on about how it couldn't possibly be this way.
Roll up! Roll up! Nutters.
Now is your chance for glory.
Outstanding post. Keep up the good work.
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They refused to identify it after seven months, or, given the fact that they'd failed to put their initials on it, were unable to identify it after seven months?
PS Take some deep breaths.
In through the nose, out through the mouth . . .
;D
Well done Tom, that's right, they did refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
Not one or two of them...ALL FOUR MEN refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
All four, Tom.
They were unable to identify it because it was a different bullet.
Rowley and Johnsen didn't put their initials on CE399 because they handled a different bullet that day.
Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
He received a pointed "hunting slug" from Tomlinson and he gave that bullet to Johnsen.
The WC Sham knew not to question any of these men about CE399, so they didn't.
Even Darrell Tomlinson - the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland - was not asked to identify the bullet when he gave testimony. Let that sink in, Tom.
In fact, he wasn't asked a single question about the bullet itself - the man who discovered this absolutely key piece of evidence for the Sham's fantasy.
Don't forget that CE399 was held up as the key to the Single Bullet Theory. It is one of the most important pieces of evidence in this case as far as the WC's story is concerned.
Yet this fundamental piece of evidence was entered into evidence without a single person identifying it as the bullet that was found in Parkland.
How was that possible Tom?
Why wasn't this questioned by the Sham.
Now that it has been established that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland, here is a question for the Nutters to answer - where did CE399 come from?
And the answer has nothing to do with missing initials.
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They refused to identify it after seven months, or, given the fact that they'd failed to put their initials on it, were unable to identify it after seven months?
PS Take some deep breaths.
In through the nose, out through the mouth . . .
I still am unable to fathom - really, I am quite dull - the central issue as to why, if CE 399 were in any sense a "plant," our dumbass conspirators would have used a bullet that raises as many obvious red flags as CE 399 and not had the various participants get their stories straight. If what was found at Parkland was actually nothing, or a 30.06 slug that you needed to make disappear because it didn't match Oswald's rifle, why would you substitute a bullet like CE 399 and coach your witnesses to tell a consistent story? And where did it come from in the first place? Was it always ready, "just in case?" How and why?
I can certainly appreciate that there would be very significant chain-of-custody issues if CE 399 were offered into evidence in a criminal trial. But in a criminal trial, you merely need to object that the chain of custody is insufficient to make reasonably certain that CE 399 is in fact the bullet found at Parkland. You don't need any rationale. But if you're asserting a conspiracy out here in the Real World, you DO need a coherent rationale as to why sane conspirators would have done what you are alleging they did.
CTers seem to miss this critical distinction. Out here in the Real World, you can't get by just by playing Oswald Defense Counsel and raising legal objections. The theory you are promoting has to make sense, or at least not blatantly Not Make Sense.
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;D
Well done Tom, that's right, they did refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
Not one or two of them...ALL FOUR MEN refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
All four, Tom.
They were unable to identify it because it was a different bullet.
Rowley and Johnsen didn't put their initials on CE399 because they handled a different bullet that day.
Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day.
He received a pointed "hunting slug" from Tomlinson and he gave that bullet to Johnsen.
The WC Sham knew not to question any of these men about CE399, so they didn't.
Even Darrell Tomlinson - the man who discovered the bullet in Parkland - was not asked to identify the bullet when he gave testimony. Let that sink in, Tom.
In fact, he wasn't asked a single question about the bullet itself - the man who discovered this absolutely key piece of evidence for the Sham's fantasy.
Don't forget that CE399 was held up as the key to the Single Bullet Theory. It is one of the most important pieces of evidence in this case as far as the WC's story is concerned.
Yet this fundamental piece of evidence was entered into evidence without a single person identifying it as the bullet that was found in Parkland.
How was that possible Tom?
Why wasn't this questioned by the Sham.
Now that it has been established that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland, here is a question for the Nutters to answer - where did CE399 come from?
And the answer has nothing to do with missing initials.
O'meara,
You're willfully conflating someone's refusing to identify something they'd seen seven months earlier with his or her being unable to remember what they'd seen seven months earlier.
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O'meara,
You're willfully conflating someone's refusing to identify something they'd seen seven months earlier with his or her being unable to remember what they'd seen seven months earlier.
And you are desperately avoiding all the evidence proving, beyond any reasonable doubt, that CE399 was not the bullet found in Parkland.
Doesn't it bother you that you can't point to a single piece of evidence supporting your "theory" that CE399 was the bullet found in Parkland.
You seem like an intelligent guy. How can you turn a blind eye to this issue? Aren't you genuinely interested in what happened?
Doesn't it bother you that the WC entered CE399 into evidence without a single person identifying it as such?
Doesn't it bother you that none of these men were asked by the WC to identify it?
Nutters like to go on about CTers being in denial or turning a blind eye to damning evidence.
Who's in denial now?
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Payette asked: "What is the CT explanation for the conspirators' planting a suspiciously non-deformed bullet (CE-399), fired from Oswald's rifle, at Parkland on a stretcher of unknown provenance?"
O'meara's responded: "This shows an extreme level of ignorance regarding this issue."
My comment: Your "response," O'meara, screams that you can't answer the question.
Which is totally understandable given the fact that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC and therefore wasn't planted by one of your oodles and gobs of bad guys and . . . gasp . . . very, very bad gals.
And what is your evidence that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC?
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No, not at all. Each item of evidence must be considered separately. If CTers wish to assert that CE 399 was fabricated, planted, etc., we must ask how fabricating and planting it makes any sense in the context of a conspiracy. The notion of fabricating CE 399 and then claiming that it was found at Parkland on a stretcher that we're not even sure was Connally's and then was so badly handled that there are chain-of-custody issues - what possible sense does that make? It's so silly that it does indeed argue in favor of authenticity.
So if the evidence is ridiculous then it's genuine. If it's not ridiculous then it's also genuine. No matter what, it's genuine.
What's silly is the assertion that CE399 was related to the assassination based solely on it having been fired from the rifle that LNers want to be the murder weapon.
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I still am unable to fathom - really, I am quite dull - the central issue as to why, if CE 399 were in any sense a "plant," our dumbass conspirators would have used a bullet that raises as many obvious red flags as CE 399 and not had the various participants get their stories straight. If what was found at Parkland was actually nothing, or a 30.06 slug that you needed to make disappear because it didn't match Oswald's rifle, why would you substitute a bullet like CE 399 and coach your witnesses to tell a consistent story?
WHAT consistent story?
And where did it come from in the first place? Was it always ready, "just in case?" How and why?
For all the imagining you do, you seem to have run into a creative block. If CE399 was not ever actually in Dealey Plaza or at Parkland, it could have been fired from CE139 at any time prior to Robert Frazier receiving it. Including after the assassination.
CTers seem to miss this critical distinction. Out here in the Real World, you can't get by just by playing Oswald Defense Counsel and raising legal objections. The theory you are promoting has to make sense, or at least not blatantly Not Make Sense.
Doesn't the same go for the people playing prosecuting counsel?
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For all the imagining you do, you seem to have run into a creative block. If CE399 was not ever actually in Dealey Plaza or at Parkland, it could have been fired from CE139 at any time prior to Robert Frazier receiving it. Including after the assassination.
Cool story Bro! :D
JohnM
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Cool story Bro! :D
The difference is, I admit when I am imagining things and don't try to present them as facts.
Like you do, bro!
Lance was calling for speculation, which you would know if you ever actually read these conversations before chiming in with your canned nonsense.
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I still am unable to fathom - really, I am quite dull - the central issue as to why, if CE 399 were in any sense a "plant," our dumbass conspirators would have used a bullet that raises as many obvious red flags as CE 399 and not had the various participants get their stories straight. If what was found at Parkland was actually nothing, or a 30.06 slug that you needed to make disappear because it didn't match Oswald's rifle, why would you substitute a bullet like CE 399 and coach your witnesses to tell a consistent story? And where did it come from in the first place? Was it always ready, "just in case?" How and why?
I can certainly appreciate that there would be very significant chain-of-custody issues if CE 399 were offered into evidence in a criminal trial. But in a criminal trial, you merely need to object that the chain of custody is insufficient to make reasonably certain that CE 399 is in fact the bullet found at Parkland. You don't need any rationale. But if you're asserting a conspiracy out here in the Real World, you DO need a coherent rationale as to why sane conspirators would have done what you are alleging they did.
CTers seem to miss this critical distinction. Out here in the Real World, you can't get by just by playing Oswald Defense Counsel and raising legal objections. The theory you are promoting has to make sense, or at least not blatantly Not Make Sense.
"But if you're asserting a conspiracy out here in the Real World, you DO need a coherent rationale as to why sane conspirators would have done what you are alleging they did."
Lance seems to be unaware that Nutters need a coherent rationale to explain why Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
Or why the WC refused to ask any of these men to identify CE399, even when the man who actually found the bullet was giving testimony.
Nutters have to offer a coherent rationale as to how CE399 could be entered into evidence by the WC Sham without a single person identifying it as such.
They have to offer a coherent rationale to explain why O P Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he received from Tomlinson or gave to Johnsen.
And their coherent rationale has to take in all these issues as a whole rather than trying to divide them up and offer piss-poor individual explanations.
Rather than deal with these insurmountable issues, the "coherent rationale" for Nutters like Lance is to cry "you have to explain the conspiracy first".
That is what Lance believes is a coherent rationale.
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And what is your evidence that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC?
The evidence that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC is comprised of the following: the fact that a bullet like CE-399 has a tendency to start tumbling upon exiting something soft (like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck), the fact that the entry wound in JBC's back measured 15mm x 6mm, the fact that both CE-399 and the largish bullet fragments found in the limo were ballistically traced to Oswald's short-rifle, the fact that the injuries sustained by JBC's wrist were commiserate with CE-399's penetrating it backwards and sideswiping his radial bone, the fact that the damage sustained by CE-399 was commiserate with the damage it did to JBC's rib and wrist, the fact that JFK's and JBC's reactions (including JBC's hat flip, his jacket's billowing outwards and his lapel's flapping outwards) in the Zapruder film were sufficiently close in time, the fact that the bullet that exited JFK's throat had to continue on and hit either JBC or the front seat of the limo (no such damage to the front seat was found), the fact that the wound in JBC's thigh was sufficiently shallow as to allow a bullet like CE-399 to fall out, and the fact that neutron activation analysis proved that CE-399 wounded JBC's wrist.
When taken collectively, The Reasonable Man concludes from the above that, beyond any reasonable doubt, JFK and JBC were both wounded by CE-399.
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All of which is a fancy way of saying “it’s not absolutely impossible that CE399 caused all those wounds, therefore it did”.
That’s rhetoric, not evidence.
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All of which is a fancy way of saying “it’s not absolutely impossible that CE399 caused all those wounds, therefore it did”.
That’s rhetoric, not evidence.
No, Iacoletti, that's just your "Oswald Public Defender" way of twisting it.
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No, Iacoletti, that's just your "Oswald Public Defender" way of twisting it.
I asked you for evidence not “woulda, coulda, shoulda”.
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The evidence that CE-399 wounded both JFK and JBC is comprised of the following: the fact that a bullet like CE-399 has a tendency to start tumbling upon exiting something soft (like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck), the fact that the entry wound in JBC's back measured 15mm x 6mm, the fact that both CE-399 and the largish bullet fragments found in the limo were ballistically traced to Oswald's short-rifle, the fact that the injuries sustained by JBC's wrist were commiserate with CE-399's penetrating it backwards and sideswiping his radial bone, the fact that the damage sustained by CE-399 was commiserate with the damage it did to JBC's rib and wrist, and the fact that JFK's and JBC's reactions (including JBC's hat flip, his jacket's billowing outwards, and his lapel's flapping outwards) in the Zapruder film were sufficiently close in time to lead The Reasonable Man (it's a legal theory) to conclude that they had been wounded by the same bullet. All of these things taken collectively prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, that JFK and JBC were both wounded by CE-399.
Well said! Thumb1:
Geez, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
JohnM
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I asked you for evidence not “woulda, coulda, shoulda”.
I've got a feeling you would have given John Abt a real run for his rubles, Iacoletti.
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Well said! Thumb1:
Geez, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
JohnM
And that same exact Ammo somehow EXPLODED JFK's Head on contact? Only in the Funny Papers.
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And that same exact Ammo somehow EXPLODED JFK's Head on contact? Only in the Funny Papers.
You're a funny guy, Storing.
It fragmented into largish pieces when it hit, according to the autopsy doctors, the hardest and thickest part of JFK's head.
Which fragments were traced to Oswald's short-rifle, btw.
D'oh
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And that same exact Ammo somehow EXPLODED JFK's Head on contact? Only in the Funny Papers.
I know this is a joke to you, but a man's head exploding isn't funny.
Once a bullet starts slowing it causes less and less damage, to itself and its target.
CE399 went straight through Kennedy's soft fleshed neck as a FMJ bullet is designed to do but when the bullet that struck the dense bone of Kennedy's skull, it fragmented and the internal pressure was such that the only way to escape was to explode Kennedy's head.
(https://i.ibb.co/Df82RxPW/different-velocities-bullet-fragment.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/M5cjGFNZ/6thfloorsimulationgif.gif)
(https://i.ibb.co/cKPwCyp7/ballistic-gel-shot.gif)
(https://i.ibb.co/k6VHn4hL/Ballistic-gel-2.gif)
JohnM
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If CE399 was not ever actually in Dealey Plaza or at Parkland, it could have been fired from CE139 at any time prior to Robert Frazier receiving it. Including after the assassination.
For someone who claims that they're not a conspiracy theorist, you sure like to theorize a pretty neato conspiracy! :D
JohnM
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Geez, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
"Match the injuries with such precision". LOL.
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For someone who claims that they're not a conspiracy theorist, you sure like to theorize a pretty neato conspiracy! :D
Only when somebody tries to misrepresent a hypothetical "planting it at the hospital" as the only alternative to the hypothetical "it was the bullet that caused all of Kennedy's and Connally's wounds".
You sure like to make up some pretty neato stories and call them evidence though.
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Only when somebody tries to misrepresent a hypothetical "planting it at the hospital" as the only alternative to the hypothetical "it was the bullet that caused all of Kennedy's and Connally's wounds".
Iacoletti,
Do you think the evil, evil bad guys or the evil, evil bad gals planted it somewhere else, or maybe even gave it directly to evil, evil, evil FBI agent, Elmet Todd?
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You're a funny guy, Storing.
It fragmented into largish pieces when it hit, according to the autopsy doctors, the hardest and thickest part of JFK's head.
Which fragments were traced to Oswald's short-rifle, btw.
D'oh
It fragmented into largish pieces when it hit
No, it didn't.
Part of the bullet 'vaporized' leaving a dust trail through JFK's brain.
How do you explain that?
according to the autopsy doctors, the hardest and thickest part of JFK's head.
No, it didn't.
They didn't say anything of the sort.
Which fragments were traced to Oswald's short-rifle, btw.
Fragments that showed up out of nowhere, supplied ny an unnamed Secret Service agent.
All the main ballistic evidence has this magical quality.
You believe the bullet that hit JFK's head smashed into countless pieces, yet the bullet that struck JBC's wrist bone didn't.
Curious.
And you still haven't tackled these questions.
This is the third time now.
This thread is becoming a record of your inability to stand by your own convictions about this aspect of the case:
1] How quickly was the bullet rotating?
2] If the bullet was rotating, how did it enter JBC's wrist base-first and then his thigh base-first?
3] In the pic below explain how the rotating bullet passed through the bone without leaving an appropriately sized hole.
4] In the pic below, explain how CE399 could have left the spread of metal fragments in the wound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
5] What do you mean when you use the word "sideswiped"?
6] In the pic below, how does the size of the hole in Connally's jacket suggest the bullet was tumbling?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
7] Do you agree that the limo should have been treated like a crime scene?
8] Do you agree vital ballistic evidence may have ended up in the Secret Service's mop bucket?
Come on. buddy, you can do it.
Ask some of your Nutter friends for help if you need to (although I see Jim disappeared fairly sharpish when faced with these very straight forward questions).
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Well said! Thumb1:
Geez, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
(https://i.ibb.co/Df5FbsQt/CE399-end-view.webp)
JohnM
what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision
They didn't.
Your notion, that CE399 somehow reflects the injuries, is a fantastical piece of magical thinking that you've repeated so many times you believe it's true.
Maybe you'll have a go at Tom's list because he's failing badly:
1] How quickly was the bullet rotating?
2] If the bullet was rotating, how did it enter JBC's wrist base-first and then his thigh base-first?
3] In the pic below explain how the rotating bullet passed through the bone without leaving an appropriately sized hole.
4] In the pic below, explain how CE399 could have left the spread of metal fragments in the wound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkGxs9b/jbcwristnumbered.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
5] What do you mean when you use the word "sideswiped"?
6] In the pic below, how does the size of the hole in Connally's jacket suggest the bullet was tumbling?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2nk1KG/JBCcoatholefront.png) (https://postimages.org/)
7] Do you agree that the limo should have been treated like a crime scene?
8] Do you agree vital ballistic evidence may have ended up in the Secret Service's mop bucket?
You can ignore #5 as this was Tom's attempt to downplay the impact of the bullet as it shattered one of the largest, most dense bones in the human body into multiple pieces.
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Dan, can you clarify your position about the bullet that hit Connally please?
You reject the near-complete CE399 bullet and you say that one would expect to find a very fractured bullet, with even a large chunk falling to the floor in Connally's hospital room (and given to an officer).
Then you say that the actual bullet that went through Connally was found and it had a pointed head - with no mention that it was very badly damaged or missing said large chunk.
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Dan, can you clarify your position about the bullet that hit Connally please?
You reject the near-complete CE399 bullet and you say that one would expect to find a very fractured bullet, with even a large chunk falling to the floor in Connally's hospital room (and given to an officer).
Then you say that the actual bullet that went through Connally was found and it had a pointed head - with no mention that it was very badly damaged or missing said large chunk.
I don't mind clarifying my position on this at all, Jim.
If you look through my posts, rather than duck and dive like Lance or Tom, I try to deal with issues as fully and openly as possible.
So, I'd appreciate a fair hearing rather than ignore 95% of the post and pick one obscure detail and trying to make a big deal out of that.
CE399
This was NOT the bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson on a stretcher in Parkland.
This is why Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
It's probably why the initials of Johnsen and Rowley weren't on CE399 - they'd never seen CE399 before.
It's why the WC Sham never asked any of these men to identify CE399 as the bullet found in Parkland.
Even when the man who discovered the bullet on the stretcher, Darrell Tomlinson, was giving testimony he wasn't asked a single question about the bullet itself. He wasn't shown the bullet to identify, he wasn't shown a picture of the bullet, he wasn't even asked to just describe it.
When Josiah Thompson interviewed O P Wright (an ex-DPD Chief), Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet that Tomlinson gave him and that he handed to SSA Johnsen. He described the bullet as a pointed "hunting slug".
He even had a search through his drawers and came up with a bullet similar to the one he handled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NCBFKWR/Stretcher-Bullet1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It is unbelievable that the Sham allowed CE399 to be admitted as evidence when not a single person identified it as such. They went out of their way to evade the identification of it.
CE399 appears out of nowhere with FBI agent Elmer Todd. It is Todd who takes the bullet to the others for them to identify which they all refuse to do, including Secret Service Chief Rowley, the man who was supposed to have given CE399 to Todd!
It has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that CE399 was NOT the bullet found at Parkland so it is up to Nutters to explain where CE399 came from.
This brings us to the very strange and often forgotten tale about the bullet that fell from Connally's stretcher. I came across this story in an article by Robert Harris -
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-connally-bullet
It reveals a bullet, or large fragment of a bullet, fell from Connally's stretcher as he was moved onto the operating table.
This is the relevant passage from Harris' article:
But there is an even better reason why we can be quite certain that CE399 was not the bullet that wounded Governor Connally. The real bullet was found on the second floor and recovered by a nurse, who then passed it on to officer Bobby Nolan, who then delivered it to the Dallas Police department. The confirmation of this begins with Governor Connally. This is from his autobiography entitled, "In History's shadow".
"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.
There was enormous significance to that scrap of metal, but I can't be certain how many years later I understood the importance of it. I have always believed that three bullets found their mark. What happened in the hospital demonstrated how easily a bullet could have been swept aside and lost."
What the governor obviously didn't realize however, is that the bullet was not "swept aside". Certainly, the nurse who recovered it would not have just discarded the most important piece of forensic evidence she had ever handled. As it turned out, the Dallas District attorney arrived at the hospital, eager to find out how his old friend, Governor Connally was doing. It seems that he arrived at about the same time that the surgery on the governor was completed, when he ran into that same nurse who found the bullet. This is from an interview of Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade, by the Dallas Morning News.
"I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.
Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?
A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet."
The nurse promptly carried out the district attorney's instructions, passing the bullet to the nearest uniformed officer in sight, who happened to be Dallas Hwy Patrolman, Bobby Nolan, who was standing in the hallway talking to Connally aide, Bill Stinson. This is from my interview of Nolan in 2010:
"I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney. Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"
Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?
Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that it was a bullet. And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."
Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.
Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.
Nolan delivered the bullet to the Dallas Police department that evening, and the next morning, was interviewed by the FBI, who reported (emphasis is mine), Bobby M. Nolan, Texas highway patrolman, Tyler district, was interviewed relative to a bullet fragment removed from the left thigh of Governor Connally, which was turned over to him at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for delivery to the FBI.
JBC recalls a bullet or large fragment of a bullet falling to the floor while he was being transferred from his stretcher and a nurse picking it up. Wade recalls the nurse coming to him with it and telling her to give it to a police officer. Nolan, stood just outside where JBC was being operated on, talking to Connally's chief Aide, Bill Stinson, receives the bullet from the nurse. Later that evening Nolan places the envelope he was given on the desk of Captain Fritz.
This all seems straight forward enough but, at some point, this bullet or large fragment of a bullet, disappears and is replaced by four very small bullet fragments that were taken from Connally's wrist. As wild as this seems it is what happened.
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I don't mind clarifying my position on this at all, Jim.
Thanks Dan, that makes it clear. However in other threads, arguing against the validity of CE399, you say that the bullet that hit Connally's wrist must have broken up or very deformed. Yet it would seem that the pointed head bullet was pretty intact.
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Thanks Dan, that makes it clear. However in other threads, arguing against the validity of CE399, you say that the bullet that hit Connally's wrist must have broken up or very deformed. Yet it would seem that the pointed head bullet was pretty intact.
It was only an example of the kind of bullet the confused and forgetful dude thought he'd seen seven months (or more?) earlier.
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Thanks Dan, that makes it clear. However in other threads, arguing against the validity of CE399, you say that the bullet that hit Connally's wrist must have broken up or very deformed. Yet it would seem that the pointed head bullet was pretty intact.
Sorry Jim, I really can't tell whether you're being serious or not.
I made that mistake in a previous post.
Just in case you are being serious - the large bullet fragment that fell off JBC's gurney while he was being transferred to the operating table is the bullet that hit his wrist.
There are three bullets in play -
1] CE399
2] The pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson
3] The large bullet fragment that fell from JBC;s gurney while he was in the operating theatre.
The picture of the pointed bullet I posted has nothing to do with the assassination. As I explained in my post, this is a picture of a bullet that O P Wright provided simply to show what the bullet he handled on the day of the assassination looked like.
The actual pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson disappeared without a trace.
The large bullet fragment that fell from JBC's gurney disappeared without a trace.
CE399 magically appeared out of nowhere with FBI agent Elmer Todd.
The bullet that passed through JFK and JBC hit JBC's wrist bone.
A piece of the jacket sheared off and passed through the wrist bone and out of the small slit-like exit wound in the crease of JBC's wrist.
Small metal fragments were blown into JBC's wrist wound and can be seen in the X-ray of JBC's wrist I posted.
The remaining large fragment of this bullet deflected off the wrist bone and lodged itself in JBC's thigh.
As JBC was being transferred from his gurney to the operating table, this large bullet fragment fell to the floor and was picked up by a nurse.
This nurse showed the large fragment to Henry Wade and he told her to give it to a police officer.
She put it in a small envelope and gave it to Texas Highway patrolman, Bob Nolan.
Bob Nolan placed this envelope on Fritz's desk.
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It was only an example of the kind of bullet the confused and forgetful dude thought he'd seen seven months (or more?) earlier.
It's sad that this is all you've got, Tom.
Don't you feel a bit embarrassed?
Nutters often forget that the forum is a written record, there for all to see.
You really should take that on board.
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It's sad that this is all you've got, Tom.
Don't you feel a bit embarrassed?
Nutters often forget that the forum is a written record, there for all to see.
You really should take that on board.
Your ignorance is so profound and your attitude so crummy, you really should go to a website that caters to gas lighters and dummies, because you'd be right at home there, O'meara.
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Your ignorance is so profound and your attitude so crummy, you really should go to a website that caters to gas lighters and dummies, because you'd be right at home there, O'meara.
You were one of the main reasons I got into the JFK assassination. When I saw the group work you were involved with on the Ed Forum I really wanted to be part of something like that.
Now you just seem like a sad, bitter, old loser who couldn't string a decent argument together if his life depended on it.
By the way, I find your habit of starting threads about other forum members disgusting and I'm quite surprised it's allowed to happen.
If you can't contribute to the debate why don't you just f"ck off?
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You were one of the main reasons I got into the JFK assassination. When I saw the group work you were involved with on the Ed Forum I really wanted to be part of something like that.
Now you just seem like a sad, bitter, old loser who couldn't string a decent argument together if his life depended on it.
By the way, I find your habit of starting threads about other forum members disgusting and I'm quite surprised it's allowed to happen.
If you can't contribute to the debate why don't you just f"ck off?
You poor widdle thing, you.
I do contribute to the debate -- by trying to help newbies and even dyed-in-the-wool tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists like you learn from the mistakes I made when I, too, was a CIA-hating tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorist, and by sharing things I've learned more recently, as well.
For example, the fact that the KGB* made hay out of the anomaly-replete assassination (that was perpetrated by self-described Marxist Lee Harvey Oswald) by spreading disinformation and promulgating nation-rending conspiracy theories so that our body politic would become so cynical, paranoiac and apathetic as to enable someone like The Traitorous Orange Bird's being eventually installed as our (expendable) "President" by someone like "former" KGB officer Vladimir Putin.
*Today's SVR and FSB
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You poor widdle thing, you.
I do contribute to the debate -- by trying to help newbies and even died-in-the-wool tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists like you learn from the mistakes I made when I, too, was a CIA-hating tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorist, and by sharing things I've learned more recently, as well.
For example, the fact that the KGB* made hay out of the anomaly-replete assassination (that was perpetrated by self-described Marxist Lee Harvey Oswald) in promulgating nation-rending conspiracy theories so that our body politic would become so cynical, paranoiac and apathetic as to enable someone like The Traitorous Orange Bird's being eventually be installed by someone like "former" KGB officer Vladimir Putin as our (expendable) "President."
*Today's SVR and FSB
I'm not saying you're f"cked up bro, but you can shove your KGB BS: where the sun don't shine and I advise you to just drop this whole JFK thing.
It's clearly had a negative effect on you.
Get back to life.
And just for the record - you don't contribute to the debate and you haven't since you rejoined the forum.
I'm glad you don't have to wear a tinfoil hat anymore but whatever headgear you have on at the moment isn't doing you any favours.
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I'm not saying you're f"cked up bro, but you can shove your KGB BS: where the sun don't shine and I advise you to just drop this whole JFK thing.
It's clearly had a negative effect on you.
Get back to life.
And just for the record - you don't contribute to the debate and you haven't since you rejoined the forum.
I'm glad you don't have to wear a tinfoil hat anymore but whatever headgear you have on at the moment isn't doing you any favours.
You think of today's SVR, FSB, and GRU as world-class humanitarian organizations, don't you, O'meara?
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You think of today's SVR, FSB, and GRU as world-class humanitarian organizations, don't you, O'meara?
Tommy the Commie strikes again ;)
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Sorry Jim, I really can't tell whether you're being serious or not.
I made that mistake in a previous post.
Just in case you are being serious - the large bullet fragment that fell off JBC's gurney while he was being transferred to the operating table is the bullet that hit his wrist.
There are three bullets in play -
1] CE399
2] The pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson
3] The large bullet fragment that fell from JBC;s gurney while he was in the operating theatre.
The picture of the pointed bullet I posted has nothing to do with the assassination. As I explained in my post, this is a picture of a bullet that O P Wright provided simply to show what the bullet he handled on the day of the assassination looked like.
The actual pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson disappeared without a trace.
The large bullet fragment that fell from JBC's gurney disappeared without a trace.
CE399 magically appeared out of nowhere with FBI agent Elmer Todd.
The bullet that passed through JFK and JBC hit JBC's wrist bone.
A piece of the jacket sheared off and passed through the wrist bone and out of the small slit-like exit wound in the crease of JBC's wrist.
Small metal fragments were blown into JBC's wrist wound and can be seen in the X-ray of JBC's wrist I posted.
The remaining large fragment of this bullet deflected off the wrist bone and lodged itself in JBC's thigh.
As JBC was being transferred from his gurney to the operating table, this large bullet fragment fell to the floor and was picked up by a nurse.
This nurse showed the large fragment to Henry Wade and he told her to give it to a police officer.
She put it in a small envelope and gave it to Texas Highway patrolman, Bob Nolan.
Bob Nolan placed this envelope on Fritz's desk.
I get that Dan but what I'm saying is, you reject the notion that a entire bullet could be found after the impact with Connally's wrist yet you accept that the pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson was complete/near complete. Is that it?
The large chunk given to Nolan would therefore be say, a quarter of the mass of the pointed bullet?
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I get that Dan but what I'm saying is, you reject the notion that a entire bullet could be found after the impact with Connally's wrist yet you accept that the pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson was complete/near complete. Is that it?
I think he's saying that the bullet that was supposedly planted in Parkland by the conspirators was remembered by forgetful O. P. Wright seven months later as being pointed rather than round-nosed.
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the confused and forgetful dude
When all else fails, play the ultimate Nutter get-out-of-jail-free card.
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When all else fails, play the ultimate Nutter get-out-of-jail-free card.
I wasn't referring to you, Iacoletti, I was referring to O. P. Wright.
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Nurse bell has several stories. There is a video of her saying she saw a bullet on the stretcher between JFKs earlobes and his shoulder. Uh… 🙄
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I get that Dan but what I'm saying is, you reject the notion that a entire bullet could be found after the impact with Connally's wrist yet you accept that the pointed bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson was complete/near complete. Is that it?
The large chunk given to Nolan would therefore be say, a quarter of the mass of the pointed bullet?
??
We are having some kind of break down in communication.
The pointed bullet found by Tomlinson had nothing to do with the assassination.
Parkland Hospital was the main centre for gunshot wounds in Dallas and it was not uncommon for bullets to be found in the hospital.
The pointed "hunting slug" that Tomlimson gave to O P Wright had nothing to do with the assassination.
I have made that abundantly clear on numerous occasions so I don't get why you are wondering what condition the pointed bullet was in.
What difference does it make what condition the pointed bullet was in?
It was just a random bullet found by Tomlinson but he thought it might have something to do with the shooting of JFK so he alerted his supervisor,O P Wright.
Wright also thought this random bullet might be of significance so he searched around until he found Secret Servive agent Johnsen and gave the pointed bullet to him.
The large chunk given to Nolan would therefore be say, a quarter of the mass of the pointed bullet?
??
??
?? Whaat?
I've been through what I think happened to the bullet that hit JBC's wrist in meticulous detail so how you've come up with this statement is completely beyond me.
I literally have no idea how you are understanding what I've posted.
Could you help me out here, Jim, and point to what I've posted that makes you think this.
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??
We are having some kind of break down in communication.
The pointed bullet found by Tomlinson had nothing to do with the assassination.
Parkland Hospital was the main centre for gunshot wounds in Dallas and it was not uncommon for bullets to be found in the hospital.
The pointed "hunting slug" that Tomlimson gave to O P Wright had nothing to do with the assassination.
I have made that abundantly clear on numerous occasions so I don't get why you are wondering what condition the pointed bullet was in.
What difference does it make what condition the pointed bullet was in?
It was just a random bullet found by Tomlinson but he thought it might have something to do with the shooting of JFK so he alerted his supervisor,O P Wright.
Wright also thought this random bullet might be of significance so he searched around until he found Secret Servive agent Johnsen and gave the pointed bullet to him.
The large chunk given to Nolan would therefore be say, a quarter of the mass of the pointed bullet?
??
??
?? Whaat?
I've been through what I think happened to the bullet that hit JBC's wrist in meticulous detail so how you've come up with this statement is completely beyond me.
I literally have no idea how you are understanding what I've posted.
Could you help me out here, Jim, and point to what I've posted that makes you think this.
If the bullet given to Wright and he then gave to SS Johnsen had Nothing to do with the assassination, this means we Now have 2 Lost Bullets?
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Tommy the Commie strikes again.
Who has been brainwashed by KGB* disinformation, O'meara, you or me?
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Who has been brainwashed by KGB* disinformation, O'meara, you or me?
KGB disinformation?
Are you for real, McMahon?
For the most part I deal with the evidence and testimonies surrounding the events in Dealey Plaza.
Unlike you, I can't turn a blind eye to the massive amount of evidence demonstrating that the Oswald-Did-It theory is really weak or that the Warren Commission "investigation" was a complete whitewash.
You are constantly raving on about the Evil CIA and the KGB. All the time. You never enter into discussion or debate about anything and constantly duck anything that undermines your own theory.
You're insulting and aggressive and start crying when you receive the same treatment back.
If you think the testimonies of eye witnesses in Dealey Plaza is KGB disinformation then good luck to you.
Or here's an idea - rather than ranting on like some loony, why not share with us what you think KGB disinformation is.
Why not start a thread to enlighten us all.
Don't be insulted if I don't hold my breath waiting for that one.
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If the bullet given to Wright and he then gave to SS Johnsen had Nothing to do with the assassination, this means we Now have 2 Lost Bullets?
Even worse, we have evidence manipulation to wrap the case around an already dead Oswald.
CE 399 looks like a bullet that was probably fired into water or cotton wool because it probably was, using the rifle found at the TSBD.
Tomlinson is on record saying that he received a phone call from somebody claiming to be a FBI agent who told him to keep his mouth shut.
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KGB disinformation?
Are you for real, McMahon?
For the most part I deal with the evidence and testimonies surrounding the events in Dealey Plaza.
Unlike you, I can't turn a blind eye to the massive amount of evidence demonstrating that the Oswald-Did-It theory is really weak or that the Warren Commission "investigation" was a complete whitewash.
You are constantly raving on about the Evil CIA and the KGB. All the time. You never enter into discussion or debate about anything and constantly duck anything that undermines your own theory.
You're insulting and aggressive and start crying when you receive the same treatment back.
If you think the testimonies of eye witnesses in Dealey Plaza is KGB disinformation then good luck to you.
Or here's an idea - rather than ranting on like some loony, why not share with us what you think KGB disinformation is.
Why not start a thread to enlighten us all.
Don't be insulted if I don't hold my breath waiting for that one.
Muck O'meara,
You know that your comrade-in-arms, Mark Lane, was paid by the KGB, don't you?
And that overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful Jim Garrison changed his theory against Clay Shaw from "He organized a homosexual thrill-kill" to "He did it for the evil, evil CIA!!!" based on a KGB article that was published in a Communist-owned Italian newspaper (Paese Sera) three days after he'd arrested Shaw?
And that the buddy of traumatized-by-the-Vietnam-War Oliver Stone, Vladimir Putin, is a "former" KGB counterintelligence officer, and that Stone's JFKA guru, Jimmy DiEugenio, has never met a Communist he didn't absolutely cherish?
Once again, Muck O'meara, how many evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Oodles and gobs?
And please tell us once again, Muck, how and why they created CE-399 with such unusual deformation and why they included Tomlinson, O.P. Wright and Johnsen in the chain of evil, evil bad people who eventually gave it to FBI agent Elmer Todd.
Thanks!
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CE 399 looks like a bullet that was probably fired into water or cotton wool because it probably was, using the rifle found at the TSBD.
Dear Martin,
"It looks like it because it probably was."
LOL!
Please explain to us why the evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals would create such a strangely deformed bullet that obviously didn't hit anything hard nose-first (if they could, that is), how they came into possession of Oswald's short-rifle to fire it through, and how they hoped to explain its connection with JFK's and/or JBC's wounds.
Did they somehow know in advance that a bullet would transit JFK's neck from back-to front, that there would be a 15mm x 6mm entrance wound in JBC's back, that JBC's soft and thin fifth rib would be shattered, and that a bullet (where did it go, btw?) would penetrate JBC's wrist backwards and break (but not pulverize) his radial bone?
Thanks!
-- Tom
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Here we go again with that "tumbling" bullet that also manages to EXPLODE JFK's Head on contact. Different Guns, Different Ammo, Different Results. Believe what you See.
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Here we go again with that "tumbling" bullet that also manages to EXPLODE JFK's Head on contact. Different Guns, Different Ammo, Different Results. Believe what you See.
Storing,
Did the bullet "explode" JFK's skull on contact, or did the largish fragments it broke into (after hitting one inch from his thick External Occipital Protuberance) cause the pressure to increase so much that it blew out the already weakened areas?
D'oh
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Muck O'meara,
You know that your comrade-in-arms, Mark Lane, was paid by the KGB, don't you?
And that overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful Jim Garrison changed his theory against Clay Shaw from "He organized a homosexual thrill-kill" to "He did it for the evil, evil CIA!!!" based on a KGB article that had been published in a Communist-owned Italian newspaper (Paese Sera) three days after he'd arrested Shaw?
And that traumatized-by-the-Vietnam-War Oliver Stone's buddy, Vladimir Putin, is a "former" KGB counterintelligence officer, and that Stone's JFKA guru, Jimmy DiEugenio, has never met a Communist he didn't absolutely cherish?
Once again, Muck O'meara, how many evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Oodles and gobs?
And please tell us once again how and why they created CE-399 with such unusual deformation, and why they included Tomlinson, O.P. Wright and Johnsen in the chain of people who eventually gave it to FBI agent Elmer Todd.
Thanks!
Little Tommy "the Commie" McMahon,
Rather than deal with your issues, let's carry on with the topic of this thread.
"One witness, however, offered testimony which, if accurate, would create the possibility of an accomplice at the window at the time of the assassination. The witness was 18-year-old Arnold Rowland, who testified in great detail concerning his activities and observations on November 22, 1963. He and his wife were awaiting the motorcade, standing on the east side of Houston Street between Maine and Elm, when he looked toward the Depository Building and noticed a man holding a rifle standing back from the southwest corner window on the sixth floor. The man was rather slender in proportion to his size and of light complexion with dark hair. Rowland said that his wife was looking elsewhere at the time and when they looked back to the window the man "was gone from our vision." They thought the man was most likely someone protecting the President. After the assassination Rowland signed an affidavit in which he told of seeing this man, although Rowland was unable to identify him."
[Warren Commission Report pg 250]
Around 12:15 pm, Arnold Rowland spotted a man with a scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building. He told his wife, Barbara, about the man and in the minutes after the assassination he told numerous law enforcement officials about this man until eventually giving an affidavit. This observation was a truly massive headache for the WC Sham. The lie they were trying to push involved Oswald sneaking into the SN after the floor-laying crew had vacated the 6th floor and hiding silently there until the assassination. Bonnie Ray's lunch remains being initially discovered on the SN blew that story out of the water so the testimony/statements of the 6 officers who made the discovery was simply ignored. Eddie Piper's testimony that Oswald was on the first floor around 12:00 pm was also ignored and the fabricated testimony of Charles Givens incorporated so the Sham could tell the lie that Givens was the last TSBD employee to see Oswald before the assassination and that Oswald was on the 6th floor near the southeast corner.
And Rowland's testimony was yet another piece of testimony that blew the Sham's narrative out of the water.
So, how did the Sham deal with it?
Extraordinarily, they asked the FBI to launch an investigation into a civilian witness, the strict purpose of which was to discredit Rowland. The FBI investigation discovered "that numerous statements by Rowland concerning matters about which he would not normally be expected to be mistaken--such as subjects he studied in school, grades he received, whether or not he had graduated from high school, and whether or not he had been admitted to college--were false."
It seems that Rowland was bullsh^tting about how smart he was. This was corroborated by a most likely source, his wife Barbara:
Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?
Mr. BELIN. I think it does. Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any---for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.
It turns out that Rowland liked to make out he was smarter than he actually was.
But was this enough to disregard his testimony about seeing a man with a rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building?
Clearly not.
At least half a dozen people could attest that Rowland told the story of the man with the rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building on the day of the assassination. His description of the man was uncannily similar to that of Fischer, Edwards and Brennan. Rowland was surely describing the same man. And how could Rowland know this man had a scoped rifle if he hadn't seen it? Was it some miraculous coincidence?
How could the Sham simply ignore this report of a man with a rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza?
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Little Tommy "the Commie"
Muck O'meara,
How ironic, a zombified-by-KGB-disinformation tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorist like you calling me a Communist.
You must be a pro-Trump, pro-Brexit, pro-Putin, anti-Ukraine little Fascist.
Is that what you are, Muck, a Fascist?
Or is it a case of the Commie pot (you?) calling the kettle (me) "black"?
*Today's SVR and FSB
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Muck O'meara,
How ironic, a zombified-by-KGB-disinformation tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorist like you calling me a Communist.
You must be a pro-Trump, pro-Brexit, pro-Putin, anti-Ukraine little Fascist.
Is that what you are, Muck, a Fascist?
Or is it a case of the Commie pot (you?) calling the kettle (me) "black"?
*Today's SVR and FSB
A pro-Putin Fascist?
You need to sort your melon out, Commie.
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A pro-Putin Fascist?
You need to sort your melon out, Commie.
So, you are a Fascist, then.
Thanks for admitting it.
Or are you "just" pro-Putin?
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So, you are a Fascist, then.
Thanks for admitting it.
Or are you "just" pro-Putin?
You genuinely don't see what a dick you are coming up with the notion of a pro-Putin Fascist?
Are you a pro-Trump Liberal, Commie?
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You genuinely don't see what a dick you are coming up with the notion of a pro-Putin Fascist?
Are you a pro-Trump Liberal, Commie?
I'm anti-Trump, anti-Putin, anti-Fascism, and anti-Communism.
You, Muck?
PS In addition to The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with Xxxx), aren't Marie Le Pen, Matteo Salvini and elements of Germany's Alternative for Germany pro-Putin?
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Storing,
Did the bullet "explode" JFK's skull on contact, or did the largish fragments it broke into (after hitting one inch from his thick External Occipital Protuberance) cause the pressure to increase so much that it blew out the already weakened areas?
D'oh
Are you talking about the JFK head area that NONE of the Parkland Dr's reported to be damaged? Or the JFK head area that warranted the comment, "surgery to the head area", at the Bethesda Autopsy? This is exactly why the SS had to Steal JFK's Body. Also why the SS had to steal the murder scene/JFK Limo with that basketball size Blood/Brain Matter stain on the Top of the Back Rest. And why the FBI the very night of the assassination took possession of every scrap of evidence inside the DPD Crime Lab. (Especially the alleged Carcano Rifle).
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Are you talking about the JFK head area that NONE of the Parkland Dr's reported to be damaged? Or the JFK head area that warranted the comment, "surgery to the head area," at the Bethesda Autopsy? This is exactly why the SS had to Steal JFK's Body. Also, why the SS had to steal the murder scene/JFK Limo with that basketball size Blood/Brain Matter stain on the Top of the Back Rest. And why the FBI the very night of the assassination took possession of every scrap of evidence inside the DPD Crime Lab. (Especially the alleged Carcano Rifle).
Storing,
How many evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
For example, do you think the X-rays were altered / substituted / faked?
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How many evil, evil bad guys and really, really bad gals do you figure were wittingly involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up?
Haven't you considered that the conspiracy to kill the President and the covering up in the aftermath are two separate operations by two unrelated entities.
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Haven't you considered that the conspiracy to kill the President and the covering up in the aftermath are two separate operations by two unrelated entities.
The CIA and the FBI didn't want anyone to know that Oswald had been in contact with a putative Department 13 (assassinations and sabotage) KGB officer, Valeriy Kostikov, at the Soviet Consulate in Mexico City. The CIA and the FBI believed Kostikov was Department 13 only because a Kremlin-loyal triple agent at the NYC field office, KGB Major Aleksei Kulak (J. Edgar Hoover's shielded-from-CIA FEDORA), had told the FBI in 1962 that Kostikov's charge at the U.N., Igor Brykin, was Department 13.
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Haven't you considered that the conspiracy to kill the President and the covering up in the aftermath are two separate operations by two unrelated entities.
What you are describing is Exactly what we just witnessed with those around Pres Biden and the Fake News'ers both hiding that this guy was off his rocker. These 2 operations, though unrelated, had a baseline common goal. Keep Everything on the QT. This is exactly what went on with FDR being confined to a wheelchair. Even with all the advancements in technology over the decades, these tag team partners are still running the exact same shell game. I sometimes wonder what we do Not know about what went down during WW 2. Especially with Stalin being a USA "ally".
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What you are describing is Exactly what we just witnessed with those around Pres Biden and the Fake News'ers both hiding that this guy was off his rocker. These 2 operations, though unrelated, had a baseline common goal. Keep Everything on the QT. This is exactly what went on with FDR being confined to a wheelchair. Even with all the advancements in technology over the decades, these tag team partners are still running the exact same shell game. I sometimes wonder what we do Not know about what went down during WW 2. Especially with Stalin being a USA "ally".
Storing,
You seem to be suffering from Biden Derangement Syndrome.
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This is exactly what went on with FDR being confined to a wheelchair.
Lest we forget, it's also what went on with JFK's compulsive, reckless, dangerous, pretty-close-to-insane womanizing.
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CYA actions by the various agencies? How far would they go? Planting a 40” MC rifle after the fact is a low probability imo.
Switching shells though, because the shells at the SN did not match the MC rifle ? and the imperative was to avoid a conspiracy investigation… maybe is plausible.. But whom other than Tom Aleya saw Fritz picking up shells and then returning later and throwing them back down?
So I’m not sure what the simple conspiracy could be here if CE399 is not the bullet that hit JFK and JC at Z224, especially if that’s the 1st shot heard.
If it’s just a solitary shooter at the TSBD 6th floor SE window, then the only reason to have switched CE399 for some other bullet is because the shooter was using a different rifle.
But if the conspirator shooter is using a different rifle then pre planting a 40” rifle seems to be illogical.
To be willing to go to more complication of pre planting an 40” MC rifle , therefore, the shooters motive may have been to cause confusion and induce anxiety of a conspiracy. A way to get revenge on the American public as well as JFK, the one man whom had the authority to have ordered air force support for the BOP operation. An action not taken that resulted in a disaster for the shooters BOP comrades who got captured and tortured to death by Castro.
The shooter may have known Oswald was an operative working for Guy Bannister or the shooter really thought Oswald was a traitor who had become a Marxist. He may have befriended Oswald ( Sylvia Odios apartment?) and he could be the one who drove Oswald to the Walker residence and had Oswald take a shot at Walker.
The shooter would have had to take the rifle from Oswald by either stealing it or buying the rifle from Oswald ( the money Oswald left for Marina ?)
A simplistic CT scenario then is a solitary conspirator shooter, a BOP survivor
(Alpha 66?) wishing revenge on JFK, wishing to inflict anxiety on the American public, and despising Oswald for being an informant and /or a pro Castro Marxist, The post event anomalous evidence such as CE399 , and the paper bag, were CYA actions by the investigators following a no conspiracy imperative by the Hoover Memo and LBJ interfering directly with Will Fritz.
The post event shooting of Tippit was not part of the conspirator plan. It was Oswald in a state of paranoia ( perhaps realizing to whom he had sold his rifle) and going to the boarding house to get his revolver fearing for his life.
If the conspirator shooter was also connected with the Mafia, and Oswald knew and suspected Jack Ruby of being a mafia informant then Oswald might have suspected Tippit had been sent to find and kill Oswald.
Perhaps that is why Oswald took a route from his boarding house heading to Rubys apartment ,which would place Oswald one block east of 10th and Patton when Tippit stated following Oswald.
And it might explain why Oswald turned 180 degrees and started walking westward TOWARDS Tippits car. Oswald had decided he had no alternative but to shoot Tippit before Tippit could shoot him.
The shooting of Tippit therefore was a big mistake by a paranoid Oswald, whom had left TSBD because he suspected the person to whom he had sold his rifle , was the assassin of JFK and that Ruby knew the assassin also.
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*who had left the TSBD
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The CIA and the FBI didn't want anyone to know that Oswald had been in contact with a putative Department 13 (assassinations and sabotage) KGB officer, Valeriy Kostikov, at the Soviet Consulate in Mexico City. The CIA and the FBI believed Kostikov was Department 13 only because a Kremlin-loyal triple agent at the NYC field office, KGB Major Aleksei Kulak (J. Edgar Hoover's shielded-from-CIA FEDORA), had told the FBI in 1962 that Kostikov's charge at the U.N., Igor Brykin, was Department 13.
Exactly, but those agencies were involved in covering information but weren't necessarily involved in an assassination plot.
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Exactly, but those agencies were involved in covering information but weren't necessarily involved in an assassination plot.
Not necessarily, but the KGB may have been.
IIRC, John M. Newman and Peter Dale Scott used to think (I think Scott still does) that evil, evil, evil James Angleton had somehow caused Kostikov's radioactive name to be mentioned by Soviet Embassy security officer Ivan Obyedkov to Oswald or an Oswald impersonator over a sure-to-be-taped-by-the-CIA phoneline on 10/1/63 so that the CIA and the FBI, in the interest of preventing Nuclear Armageddon, would be forced seven weeks later to cover up the CIA's hand in the assassination.