JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Duncan MacRae on August 17, 2023, 11:37:54 AM
-
Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
Not far from her original spot, but she has moved inside the TSBD, behind the Window.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
Prayer Woman highlighted in Phil Willis slide number 21
-
Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
Not far from her original spot, but she has moved inside the TSBD, behind the Window.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
Prayer Woman highlighted in Phil Willis slide number 21
I think everyone is speechless, Duncan. I, for one, have never believed it to be Oswald. Thank you for sharing this. Great work.
-
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
Prayer Woman highlighted in Phil Willis slide number 21
Thank you for this, Mr MacRae, most interesting! The woman behind the glass in Willis may indeed be PrayerWoman, or she may simply be another (younger?) TSBD lady. (Quite a few minutes will have passed between Darnell & Willis.)
What matters is that, since the emergence of the better Darnell frame below, it has been clear that PrayerPerson is female:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp9DskNc/Darnell-new-frame-cropped.jpg)
Thumb1:
-
I think everyone is speechless, Duncan. I, for one, have never believed it to be Oswald.
Yeah, you thought it was Mr. Billy Lovelady, lol
-
Darnell Willis - Mystery Prayer Woman B/W Side By Side Comparison
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/darnellwillis.jpg)
-
i think Willis is showing not the right arm of the lady behind the glass but the (shadowed) left arm of the lady out front
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/darnellwillis.jpg)(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
-
I had considered that, Alan, but I dismissed that thought as I would expect to see at least a little bit of the Lady's left arm in front of the Window ( Maybe that is her left arm, but it just doesn't look right, to me ) and at a similar angle which would be casting the speculated shadow.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
-
I had considered that, Alan, but I dismissed that thought as I would expect to see at least a little bit of the Lady's left arm in front of the Window ( Maybe that is her left arm, but it just doesn't look right, to me ) and at a similar angle which would be casting the speculated shadow.
Apologies, Mr. MacRae, I expressed myself clumsily!
I believe this is her actual left arm, in front of the glass. It's in the shade due to her own body
-
A previous discussion if interested:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/)
-
Apologies, Mr. MacRae, I expressed myself clumsily!
I believe this is her actual left arm, in front of the glass. It's in the shade due to her own body
I still see it as the arm of the Lady behind the Glass.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21crop.jpg)
-
I still see it as the arm of the Lady behind the Glass.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21crop.jpg)
Having gone to the full photo in Mr. Unger's gallery (on this website), cropped it, and boosted contrast and saturation---------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNnbFrv8/Willis-21-contrast-saturation.jpg)
---------------I'm less sure that I'm right and you're wrong!
Thumb1:
-
A previous discussion if interested:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/)
Thank you for the link, Mr. Davidson! Thumb1:
The reactions from true believers in that thread to the superior (and wider) Darnell frame are rather amusing. Pure denial of the obvious.
No, Prayer Man in Darnell is not Mr. Oswald. It is a woman. Most likely candidate IMO: Ms. Pauline Sanders
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yfY3JF1/Pauline-Sanders-post-assassination.jpg)
Does this mean Mr. Oswald was lying when he said he "went outside to watch P. Parade"? No. This is him here, taking a drink from his Coke:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZq2ZV6/Lovelady-Hughes-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/6q0Rk2MC/LHO-Hughes-bottle.gif)
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNnbFrv8/Willis-21-contrast-saturation.jpg)
Cf this Allen photo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQxCXmLN/Allen-entrance.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/wjKWmsYM/Allen-entrance-door.jpg)
I don't think she's Prayer-Woman-In-Darnell after all
-
Door handle?
-
Door handle?
Yes, that's what I was pointing out-----------the door handle gives the illusion (in Willis 21) of an unsleeved horizontal-a-la-PrayerWoman left forearm
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNnbFrv8/Willis-21-contrast-saturation.jpg)
Cf this Allen photo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQxCXmLN/Allen-entrance.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/wjKWmsYM/Allen-entrance-door.jpg)
That makes sense, the lady in the sunlight looks to have her hand on the door handle and helping to keep it open or just resting her hand there.
JohnM
-
That makes sense, the lady in the sunlight looks to have her hand on the door handle and helping to keep it open or just resting her hand there.
Thumb1:
-
I still can't see what both of you guys see.
The approx 45 degree angle of the alleged arm below the elbow and lifted upwards towards the door handle doesn't look correct or natural to me, it looks deformed, ie, taking in to account the unseen distance between the alleged elbow of the unseen part of the arm to the top of the Lady's shoulder.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21crop.jpg)
-
I still can't see what both of you guys see.
The approx 45 degree angle of the alleged arm below the elbow and lifted upwards towards the door handle doesn't look correct or natural to me, it looks deformed, ie, taking in to account the unseen distance between the alleged elbow of the unseen part of the arm to the top of the Lady's shoulder.
The lady out front has her right hand raised to her head
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
Look at the height of that elbow, and now imagine she lowers that arm to down by her side. This will give you the approximate height of the left elbow (relative to her body). Her left forearm is thus at the necessary angle for her to hold the door handle.
-
Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
Not far from her original spot, but she has moved inside the TSBD, behind the Window.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/LADYOrig.gif)
Prayer Woman highlighted in Phil Willis slide number 21
"Her" original spot?
Whoa not so fast. The female presented has a hairline that stands out much thicker in volume in stark contrast to the much thinner hairline of the genuine Prayer Man figure.
What did she do, film a hair-growth commercial after the time & sequence intervals of the film-footage captured respectively by Mr. Darnell (James) and Mr. Wiegman (Dave)?
When exemplary researcher Mr. Murphy (Sean) boldly prophesied way back when in the Fall of 2013 that moving forward do not be surprised when the genuine Prayer Man figure is casts as a woman I thought no way, but true to form here we are. Students are returning to class next week, so I'm off here for a stretch. Cannot wait to venture back here in late November to catch up on this thread. Meanwhile, Be safe, healthy & happy all. Go figure @ Sean Murphy's bold prediction.
-
Doyle is at it again. Denis didn’t “find Stanton”. He found a blur that he speculated could be Stanton. And Doyle is lying about the EF too. There are plenty of PM skeptics there. Doyle gets kicked out of forums (this one included) because of his own obnoxious behavior.
As for the figure behind the glass in Willis 21: different head shape, different hair.
-
“Everyone agreed”. LOL.
-
From what I can see, the person in the film frames and the person behind the glass are two entirely different people. But the larger point is that we will never know who these blurry people are. Some say it looks like LHO; others say it isn't. I doubt we'll ever be able to nail it down because the TV station who owns the footage refuses to release any direct-from-film scans of the footage.
The film itself is 16mm and because of the distance the camera was from the subject, even then blow ups will most probably not even reveal who it is.
The only corroborating evidence is the Hosty note that says LHO "...went outside to watch the parade..." That's what LHO told Hosty based on his notes. There are no other photos or film that exists that captured LHO out there when the parade went by. It makes reasonable sense that the person up on the steps could be Oswald. He is, after all, surrounded by coworkers, who also congregated up on those steps to catch a glimpse of Kennedy going by.
-
It’s highly unlikely imo that it’s a reflection of the woman outside because the face of the outside woman would have to be looking TOWARDS the glass partition.
-
Sanders said that she and Stanton were on the east side of the entryway. Frazier said Stanton was to his left. PM is not a white-haired, 300 pound woman. Doyle will jump through all kinds of absurd hoops to keep his pet theory alive, including surmising that Stanton had dyed her hair or worn a wig.
-
There is no evidence that Stanton moved from her position on the east side of the entrance. And Lovelady never said that Stanton was in the west corner. There’s also no evidence that any “tiny face” between Lovelady and Shelley is Sanders. Nor has Chris Davidson ever “brought out Stanton’s face”. Nor did Frazier ever place Stanton in the prayerman spot. Those are Doyle fabrications. There is no evidence that either prayerman or Stanton was exactly 5’4”. And shade does not make white hair dark.
And nobody has proven who a blur in the Owens film is or anything about its “hair”. And even if you could, it would tell you nothing about prayerman anyway.
-
- you have no basis for your claim that Stanton was precisely 5’4”. None.
- there is no “obese mitt-like hand”, except in your imagination.
- Davidson’s “face” looks nothing like Stanton. Even Davidson says so.
- Lovelady never said that Stanton was at the far right. That’s a flat-out lie.
- Frazier never said that Stanton “pivoted”, nor do two different images prove any pivot anyway. Nor can you prove that Calvery was even there at the time, much less was saying anything at that moment.
- Frazier never said anything about staring at Stanton for the longest time, nor does Wiegman or Darnell show Frazier and Prayerman looking at each other anyway.
- we don’t “know” that Stanton was on the top platform, or even that prayerman is.
- we don’t know that Darnell’s equipment made white hair “look dark”. Nor does that even make sense. If it made white hair look dark, then it would make Caucasian skin even darker.
- we don’t know the Owens blur is Stanton or that prayerman is wearing a dress or holding a purse.
This is all made-up crap.
-
Seems unlikely imo, that if PM was a woman looking in her purse she would need to raise it to mouth level.
-
Doyle has shown no evidence whatsoever for this alleged “exact match”, and this argument doesn’t even make sense. An image from a different photographer, film, and location tells you exactly nothing about Darnell’s equipment or any alleged “darkening effects”.
As is the usual case, Doyle is all false claims and verbosity and there is no “there” there.
-
This light-haired blur could just as easily be Stanton as the figure in the Owens blur.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Sarah-Stanton-TSBD-Darnell-Film-Low.jpg)
-
The other screen grab looks even less like Stanton. The shape of the head and face are different.
-
Would the fat lady who is always in the company of other employees everywhere else she was, really be totally by herself there out on the steps that late post shots fired?
-
(https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Denis.png)
(https://s11.gifyu.com/images/Sgkcq.png)
-
Three months prior to Denis' email:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/?do=findComment&comment=472072 (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28136-prayerperson/?do=findComment&comment=472072)
-
Just to confuse things ???
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison1.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison3.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison4.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison5.jpg)
-
I have to admit, that magnified image looks a lot like a fat lady similar to photo of Sarah Stanton.
However the fact that PM is such dark clothing vs how white the fat lady’s clothes are, plus the hair going from dark to that light/white hair, kind of leads me more towards the place Alan Ford located Stanton on the front strips as the white blob of a person with both hands up shielding her eyes from sun.
Also it could be Stanton there by herself, yet she did not move there from PMs corner, rather simply had moved from where Alan Ford has her ( which I still agree with too) at the east side of the center handrail just Next to Lovelady on the west side of the handrail.
Ford will have to post the film frames or Altgens photo no.6 here in this thread to demonstrate
To Mr.Doyle where we think that Stanton was at the time of PM image captured in Darnell and Weizmann films.
-
Just to confuse things ???
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison1.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison3.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison4.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison5.jpg)
confuse things? oh please continue duncan.......... as you may know, i always thought it was some dude off the street trying to get a better picture due to the 'sun plane' (!), but now am not so sure. but am sure it wasn't oswald, he was busy shooting the president and wondering lots of stuff.
-
Why did he not mention it for many decades and only mention it recently?
Fred
-
The evidence for Brian’s claims always seems to disappear mysteriously.
-
If you are suggesting this means Oswald took his lunch that morning, how about asking Buell why Oswald would have carried it in a long bag at least two feet long. Also why Oswald would have lied to him about something so innocuous as carrying his lunch since he told Buell he didn't take it that morning. And then why after taking his lunch, Oswald decided not to eat it but would leave it on a table in the lunchroom and beat it out of the building. Not even curious why a cop had pulled a gun on him. It was just off to get his gun and then the movies! Any of that sound like a reasonable narrative to you?
Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked
like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn’t take his
lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was
his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.
Yes, Richard, lots of reasonable narratives going on here, eh wot? It would appear Mr. Doyle is in full bloom....... again. i think of that big flower which blooms once every ten years, and when it does it really stinks. Imagine this flower blooming every ten minutes !!! Oy !!
-
Here are a few snips from “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed. This is from pages 70-71 in the section on Ruth Dean:
At lunch-time, one of the ladies in the office and I were going to lunch and were going to stop by the bank and make the deposits for the day. We just happened to be standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository when the parade came by. I was standing there with Madie Reese and Billy Lovelady and several other employees. I remember Billy being there because we were joking before the motorcade arrived. Lee Harvey Oswald was not there on the steps, as some people have claimed.
I remember seeing Jacqueline Kennedy climb over the back seat and on to the turtleback of the car, and the Secret Service man jumped up and made her get back into the car. That’s about the most vivid recollection I have of it. I was able to see that reasonably clearly from where I was standing, although when the President was hit, apparently I wasn’t able to see that because some of the tree trunks were at that point.
We continued to stand there because it was so quick when all three had been fired, and then we decided we needed to hurry on because the bank was going to be closing. So, we went on to the bank, made the deposit, had our lunch, and came back. But we did talk about it.
So, have both Ruth Dean and Maddie Reese been identified in the photographic record? Also, looking at the Altgens 6 photograph, it does appear to me that the tree trunk could have been in the way of them seeing the shot that hit JFK in the neck. And that they probably would have had a clear view of Clint Hill’s and Jackie’s encounter on the trunk lid.
-
Chris Davidson never “brought out Stanton’s face”. That’s a Doyle fabrication.
More made-up Doyle BS. Not only is there no proof of this “exact match” or height, there’s no proof this blur is even Stanton.
So then it really could just simply be a dude off the street trying to take pictures. Sarah and her "too-fat" polka bodice just doesn't jive.
-
The true height of the mystery person ( As the mystery person appears in all moving and still images ) can NEVER be determined, until it is proven beyond doubt who the mystery person is and what kind of Shoes, if any, were worn by the subject.
Here is a multiple choice Quiz -
Pick The Mystery Person's Footwear Of November 22nd 1963 -
1. Flat Shoes ?
2. One Inch Heels?
3. Two Inch Heels?
4. Three Inch Heels?
5. Four Inch Heels?
6. Stilts? ???
Good Luck ;)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_ad65aad8.jpg)
-
Gosh, Duncan, I dunno. Hmm, well Sarah wouldn't be wearing stilts, would she? She's too fat for them. This....... looks like a job for..... Chris
Davidson!!!!
-
Just to confuse things ???
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison1.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison3.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison4.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Comparison5.jpg)
Hi Duncan, I hope you are doing well, This lady always looked like Sandra Styles to me.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/sandra_styles_butler.jpg" alt="sandra_styles_butler.jpg")
Sincerely yours, Michael
-
To prove with any plausibility that PM is Sarah Staunton , You will have to find some 300 lb woman wearing a white dress who has white hair and ask her to stand where PM was approximately on Nov 22/63 and photograph using some similar camera at 12:30 pm and see if white hair and white dress transform into black hair and black dress , with a strongly contrasting light gray fuzzy ring around the neck and see what kind of object show ups so white in the hands while the white dress and white hair remain so dark.
And maybe you can prove that a totally white haired woman with white dress on and fully illuminated by the sun , can look back ( if she actually is at all) to the glass plate entrance partition and produce a reflection of dark hair and dark dress with glasses on.
Good luck :)
-
Darnell Willis - Mystery Prayer Woman B/W Side By Side Comparison
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/darnellwillis.jpg)
Hi Everybody, To me, Prayer Man is still a man and it is Lee Harvey Oswald. Why? Because he identifies himself with his ID bracelet and Marine Corps ring. I purchased a 1960s Dr Pepper bottle and an ID bracelet. The ID bracelet was reflective enough but the soda bottle was not. He could have been drinking from the soda bottle, but it looks like only his silver ring and bracelet could have consistently made the bright circular reflection when he raised his hands to his mouth. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49673/m1/1/med_res_d/)
(https://media.gettyimages.com/id/515512510/photo/lee-harvey-oswald-seized-by-police.jpg?s=1024x1024&w=gi&k=20&c=Tc9R_0hHdO3LCLnTQSUsrT9jn36S0dq9OT7X1V8WC3c=)
-
Well,this IS a new development, Duncan.
My A.I.(read:Dave) algo tells me the top image is Mary Tyler Moore. The bottom picture is Buffy from 'Family Affair' fame. Hey, HAL, how you doin'?
-
Hi Everybody, I will try to identify as many people in this frame as I can going from the top down.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Darnell_Large_gif_snapshot_001.jpg)
1. On very top---Buell Wesley Frazer
2. Far left--- Lee Harvey Oswald
3. Right of Center---- Joe Molina
4. Lady left of Center--- Maddie Reese
5. Lady on far right with right hand above her head--- Sarah Stanton
6. Far left under Mr. Oswald--- unknown.
7. Below Maddie Reese is a lady's ankle whose head and body block out Mr. Oswald from the waist down.
8. Right of center immediately--- unknown.
9 Right of center next Sandra Styles and to her right Vicky Adams.
10. Far left there are various unknown people.
11. Left of center under the lady with the ankle is a lady in white--- unknown.
12. Directly under this lady is a lady in black--- Patricia Lawrence.
13. The lady running in the center foreground is Carolyn Arnold.
14. To her right the lady holding the black purse is Jeraldean Reid.
15. The lady to the right of the blonde lady is Bonnie Richey.
Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Everybody, I will try to identify as many people in this frame as I can going from the top down.
Those guesses are all well and good, but what are they based on? For example, why Molina and not Lovelady?
-
Here are a few snips from “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed. This is from pages 70-71 in the section on Ruth Dean:
At lunch-time, one of the ladies in the office and I were going to lunch and were going to stop by the bank and make the deposits for the day. We just happened to be standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository when the parade came by. I was standing there with Madie Reese and Billy Lovelady and several other employees. I remember Billy being there because we were joking before the motorcade arrived. Lee Harvey Oswald was not there on the steps, as some people have claimed.
I remember seeing Jacqueline Kennedy climb over the back seat and on to the turtleback of the car, and the Secret Service man jumped up and made her get back into the car. That’s about the most vivid recollection I have of it. I was able to see that reasonably clearly from where I was standing, although when the President was hit, apparently I wasn’t able to see that because some of the tree trunks were at that point.
We continued to stand there because it was so quick when all three had been fired, and then we decided we needed to hurry on because the bank was going to be closing. So, we went on to the bank, made the deposit, had our lunch, and came back. But we did talk about it.
So, have both Ruth Dean and Maddie Reese been identified in the photographic record? Also, looking at the Altgens 6 photograph, it does appear to me that the tree trunk could have been in the way of them seeing the shot that hit JFK in the neck. And that they probably would have had a clear view of Clint Hill’s and Jackie’s encounter on the trunk lid.
Hi Charles, Here are Maddie Reese and Ruth Dean standing next to each other on the TSBD steps.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/16832.jpg)
Maddie Reese is D. and Ruth Dean is C.
Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Those guesses are all well and good, but what are they based on? For example, why Molina and not Lovelady?
Hi John, I hope this note finds you doing well. For Molina and not Lovelady, we have Lovelady and Shelley walking down to the railway yard ahead of this. Molina is dressed in a nice white shirt. Lovelady is dressed in a red plaid shirt. I was asked the same thing about Shelley being Molina back in 2013 because they had Molina labeled as Shelley and Shelley labeled as Molina, and I had to tell Colin Crow that Shelley is wearing the brown suit, so they changed the identifications.
Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Charles, Here are Maddie Reese and Ruth Dean standing next to each other on the TSBD steps.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/16832.jpg)
Maddie Reese is D. and Ruth Dean is C.
Sincerely yours, Michael
Thanks Michael, that’s very helpful!
-
Hi John, I hope this note finds you doing well. For Molina and not Lovelady, we have Lovelady and Shelley walking down to the railway yard ahead of this. Molina is dressed in a nice white shirt. Lovelady is dressed in a red plaid shirt. I was asked the same thing about Shelley being Molina back in 2013 because they had Molina labeled as Shelley and Shelley labeled as Molina, and I had to tell Colin Crow that Shelley is wearing the brown suit, so they changed the identifications.
Sincerely yours, Michael
Ok, but that’s begging the question. You could just as easily say that can’t be Lovelady walking down the street because Lovelady is still on the steps. The Couch film is black and white so you can’t actually see a red shirt.
-
Ok, but that’s begging the question. You could just as easily say that can’t be Lovelady walking down the street because Lovelady is still on the steps. The Couch film is black and white so you can’t actually see a red shirt.
Hi John, You can tell the difference in black and white film of a plaid shirt versus a white shirt versus a brown suit. Here is Altgens 6:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/16832.jpg)
You can tell that Lovelady letter F is wearing a plaid shirt; you can tell that letter E Shelley is wearing a brown suit; and you can tell that Molina
letter A is wearing a white shirt. I cannot find them in Darnell. I am confident that they --- Shelley and Lovelady are walking together down the Elm Street Extension. If you can, please point them out in Darnell. Thank you for your reply like normal! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-212404.JPG)
In this Couch frame Shelley looks like he is wearing a brown suit not a black one. Lovelady you cannot make out the plaid, but it is not white.
-
In this Couch frame Shelley looks like he is wearing a brown suit not a black one. Lovelady you cannot make out the plaid, but it is not white.
That’s a pretty weak basis for assuming these two figures are Shelley and Lovelady, IMO.
-
That’s a pretty weak basis for assuming these two figures are Shelley and Lovelady, IMO.
Hi John. It is not my basis. You can see two guys together. Do they physically look like Shelley and Lovelady. Yes. One on the left has Shelley's elaborate hairstyle. One on the right has Lovelady's round head. They are at the right place at the right time. To me it is more than enough. Thank you for your reply! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Everybody, I should have said earlier that my point of identifying as many people as possible in the Darnell frame is the women such as Sarah Stanton are on the TSBD steps at the same time as Prayer Man, but in different places. Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi John. It is not my basis. You can see two guys together. Do they physically look like Shelley and Lovelady. Yes. One on the left has Shelley's elaborate hairstyle. One on the right has Lovelady's round head. They are at the right place at the right time. To me it is more than enough. Thank you for your reply! Sincerely yours, Michael
If you watch the actual clip you've taken your frame from it seems pretty clear these men are not walking together.
One man overtakes the other and pulls away from him quite quickly.
IMO one of these men looks more like Danny Arce than Shelley
-
If you watch the actual clip you've taken your frame from it seems pretty clear these men are not walking together.
One man overtakes the other and pulls away from him quite quickly.
IMO one of these men looks more like Danny Arce than Shelley
Hi Dan, I hope you are doing well. Can you please supply the clip. I cannot find Gerda's. I just went frame by frame in Duncan's and Robin's fantastic photo gallery and saw them together until they disappeared out of sight. In the Darnell frame, do you still see Shelley and Lovelady? If so, can you please point them out. Thank you for your reply! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-212641.JPG)
I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD.
-
Hi John. It is not my basis. You can see two guys together. Do they physically look like Shelley and Lovelady. Yes.
I think they physically look like indistinct blurs. And I agree with Dan, they don’t even appear to be walking together. Furthermore, Shelley said he stopped at the island for a minute and was there when he saw the policeman running to the steps. Your “Shelley” isn’t on the island or looking at the running policeman.
-
I think they physically look like indistinct blurs. And I agree with Dan, they don’t even appear to be walking together. Furthermore, Shelley said he stopped at the island for a minute and was there when he saw the policeman running to the steps. Your “Shelley” isn’t on the island or looking at the running policeman.
Hi John, People say a lot of things they think they did. Detectives Senkel and Brown actually wrote that they drove Shelley, Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams to the sheriff's department. They did not. I am comfortable with my analysis of blurry images. That is usually all we have to work with. Have you found Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell? Thank you for your reply! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi John, People say a lot of things they think they did.
I agree, but you have to consider all available evidence rather than jumping to what you think a blurry “hairstyle” resembles. This “Lovelady” seems to have short sleeves.
-
I agree, but you have to consider all available evidence rather than jumping to what you think a blurry “hairstyle” resembles. This “Lovelady” seems to have short sleeves.
Hi John, It is usually going to be more than this. First, you have Gerda identifying them. They physically look like Shelley and Lovelady. Then one wears brown; one wears possibly plaid. They are at the right place at the right time. They run into apparently Gloria Calvery. This is all on film. Have you found Shelley and Lovelady anywhere else? Thank you for your help! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi John, It is usually going to be more than this. First, you have Gerda identifying them. They physically look like Shelley and Lovelady. Then one wears brown; one wears possibly plaid. They are at the right place at the right time. They run into apparently Gloria Calvery. This is all on film. Have you found Shelley and Lovelady anywhere else? Thank you for your help! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Michael, I'm not in the habit of "finding" people in blurry images based on insufficient data. I have a lot of respect for Gerda, but she didn't have any more evidence than you do.
-
Hi Michael, I'm not in the habit of "finding" people in blurry images based on insufficient data. I have a lot of respect for Gerda, but she didn't have any more evidence than you do.
Hi John, Please provide their location. Otherwise, what are you really accomplishing? Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Brian, I hope you are doing well. I was sorry to read about the loss of your mother and your hurricane damage.
Here in the Darnell frame we have Prayer Man in his usual place and Sarah Stanton's face in the bottom left hand corner of the yellow rectangle. She is to Frazier's and Molina's bottom left. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://thejfktruthmatters.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/detailedframes.jpg?w=1024&h=512)
Quote from: Michael Welch on Today at 05:33:17 PM
Hi Brian, I hope you are doing well. I was sorry to read about the loss of your mother and your hurricane damage.
Here in the Darnell frame we have Prayer Man in his usual place and Sarah Stanton's face in the bottom left hand corner of the yellow rectangle. She is to Frazier's and Molina's bottom left. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
The woman you are outlining is Pauline Sanders...That woman is to Frazier's left exactly as Sanders described...Sanders said she was to the east of the door and back against the glass divider and that is exactly where the woman you outlined was...That woman cannot be Stanton because her position allows her to see the limousine at the time of the shots...Stanton said she could not see the limousine at the time of the shots...One look at Prayer Man shows the west wall of the portal blocking Prayer Man's view of the limousine...
You have no right to ignore my repeated (typed thousands of times) presentation that Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton's 5 foot 4 height exactly...You can see this in comparison to Frazier in Darnell where Prayer Man comes up to Frazier's chin making Prayer Man Stanton's exact 5 foot 4 height...Murphy and the Prayer Man mob hijacked the JFK internet and deliberately avoided a simple height comparison and the research community fell for it...Thanks to Morissette, you can now see it in Owens where photogrammetry would match Stanton's height and features exactly to Prayer Man...Owens also shows an exact dress sleeve match...It's a cute post Mr Welch, but it doesn't answer any of the main damning evidence I've posted...Stancak found Sanders in Altgens 6 in between Lovelady & Shelley...Sanders is actually in the same position she is in the Darnell frame you link only Altgens' telephoto lens makes her look like she is standing in between them...Since there were only two women on the top platform, that forces Prayer Man to be Stanton (the person whom Davidson found Stanton's face on)...
I've also noted that although every speck I type is held to extreme scrutiny, that Mr Welch's image shows a person with dark hair...So even though Mr Welch is alleging that woman is Stanton, I see none of the usual suspects coming in and attacking him for showing a putative Stanton with dark hair...That accusation is only reserved for me and is never applied to anyone else even though they are supposedly committing the same violation...What that tells you is the people making it don't really believe it and just use it as a dishonest wrench in the works...So Mr Welch has proven me correct one way or the other and my enemies have been hung by their own petard that they are not honest enough to answer or admit...I have basically taken on the entire JFK internet, had both hands tied behind my back with unfair banning, and still soundly beaten them...I'll tell you that it is a good feeling from my end to beat the Prayer Man mob while they think they are getting away with ignoring you...
Hi Brian, The lady has gray hair. Pauline Sanders is behind her to the left of Frazier on the very top in the East corner. Prayer Man remains in place. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi John, Please provide their location. Otherwise, what are you really accomplishing?
Reality. A wild guess stated with confidence is still a wild guess.
-
Reality. A wild guess stated with confidence is still a wild guess.
Hi John, What is wild about it? There is evidence of both of them being there. Wild would be Oswald and Givens are walking towards the rail yard. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
I have to say that it appears to me that Prayerman is NOT Sarah Stanton and Is NOT Pauline Sanders either.
That therefore returns the argument to the original theory that PM is Oswald because all other TSBD employees are accounted for
Sanders probably remained exactly were she said she was , on the east side of the landing and Stanton who originally was standing beside an to the right of Sanders , probably MOVED because she was blocking the entrance door.
Where did she probably move too?
Moving to the west side corner would have been difficult because of several other large MEN , like BWF and Mr Williams , who was himself kind of a fat guy, thereby making it difficult for The 300 Stanton to squeeze thru them.
(Note: Oswald ,on the other hand , being only a 135 lb thin man could have more easily slipped behind Mr Williams to move to the west corner position , especially at 12:29 since Stanton had moved and she was no longer blocking the front door.)
Easiest fur Stanton to move was simply forward and down a few steps to a position just east of the center hand rail.
That position is where white shirt blob whom is raising both hands to shield the face is in the Altgens 6 photo.
That position is right NEXT to Billy Lovelady albeit on the opposite side of the center handrail.
Lovelady located a woman he said
Worked on the 2nd floor NEXT to himself ( in a new paper interview article) .
If PM were Stanton , she would be BEHIND and NOT next to Lovelady.
Finally Frazier saying he looked to HIS left at Sarah, does NOT work with Sarah in PMs position.
It DOES work however where fluffy white shirt blob is in Altgens 6 photo.
As far the refutation of the theory PM =Oswald by assertion that a new version of Darnell film MUST be the more correct version than the old 2013 version, even though the “new” version is weirdly MORE distorted , I have to suggest some possibility of manipulation going on, so I’m skeptical 🤨
-
Mr.Doyle certainly is giving an argument to consider IF the points are reasonably correct and are not exaggerated.
1. IF it’s definite that Frazier stated that Sarah Stanton was in deep shadow or completely in shadow, then that would rule out the fluffy white blob with both hands raised shading the eyes in Altgens 6 photo as Stanton because that person was in FULL sunlight.
2. If it’s true that Stanton’s LOS was blocked and she could not see the JFK limo then it’s also unlikely that white blob is Stanton because there a pretty good LOS from that east side of the handrail across(east of) Lovelady since Altgens 6 photo seems to show the LOS From Altgens position TO the TSBD entrance is fairly clear.
Here I could point out that although the fluffy white blobs LOS isn’t blocked by a wall as with PM, that there’s still some possible obstruction by the heads of persons between white blob and the JFK limo.
But if no.1 above is accurate , then white blob is already ruled out by being in total sunlight, and the point is irrelevant.
3. The overlay of Oswald’s body shape MAY be LESS in volume than what PMs total volume of body shape appears to be. (However, if Oswald was wearing his dark blue jacket also and those sleeves up as well, his bulk might appear more a match).
Since it appears that the dark blue jacket was left in the Domino room to be found a month later, then it would be kind of an odd action if PM is Oswald wearing the jacket because why would he return into the building and take off the jacket if he was about to leave in a hurry as early as 3 minutes post shots?
4. IF Buell W. Frazier is using phrase “to my left” and he means that as the left side of the TSBD entrance from the perspective from Altgens position, then BWFs head turned westward slightly as in Altgens 6 photo would be consistent with ALMOST looking towards PM.
However BEF would have had to continue turning the head in clockwise rotation further to the NORTHWEST to actually make eye contact with PM who was slightly behind the right shoulder of BWF.
5. IF it’s true that there’s some proof that the all white fat lady with white hair in Owens goes all dark gray and hair goes black, when in the The PM position in Darnell then there’s no problem. Maybe Mr. Doyle could post some photos of an actual similar fat person about 5’-4” and 300 lbs with white hair who has been recently photographed with black and white film to further convince some of us a little more.
6. One point that I’m not sure Mr. Doyle made which is that theres no statement from Stanton describing seeing DPD police officer Baker running to the TSBD or bypassing Stanton, In contrast to Sanders who DID see Baker most likely because Sanders remained where she said she was just east of the front door on the top landing.
Therefore it’s almost a logical deduction that Stanton had to have moved away from Sanders ( ie: away from blocking the front door with her 300lb girth) to some other location.
This is where I ran into trouble the last time trying to posit that the west corner being a space not occupied would be a logical place for the fat lady to move to so as to be out of the way.
The counter argument to this was that Mr. Williams ( a fat man himself) plus Shelly, plus BWF , all standing on the upper landing of which was only about 4.5 ft in depth, would be an obstacle to Stanton moving over to the west corner.
Maybe that was not so much an obstacle as was suggested however.
-
Hi Brian, In Darnell, Gloria Calvery, if she is the lady in black under Maddie Reese, is blocking the view of Prayer Man, correct? Thank you for everything, Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan, I hope you are doing well. Can you please supply the clip. I cannot find Gerda's. I just went frame by frame in Duncan's and Robin's fantastic photo gallery and saw them together until they disappeared out of sight. In the Darnell frame, do you still see Shelley and Lovelady? If so, can you please point them out. Thank you for your reply! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-212641.JPG)
I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj7DvFrD/Gerda-Darnell1-00-00-00-00-00-30.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
It seems pretty clear to me the men aren't walking together. The man behind overtakes the other and is moving far more quickly. If the clip had run for another couple of seconds they'd be nowhere near each other.
And the woman you think they are meeting actually runs straight by them.
As far as I know this clip was originally posted by Alan Ford.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
It's my opinion that on the steps we see the moment Gloria Calvery tells Billy Lovelady about the assassination.
Calvery has on a black headscarf and appears to be facing a man who is a step higher up. She is accompanied by either Karen Hicks or Carol Reed [the lady in white].
I believe Shelley can be seen walking towards the bottom of the steps [the man in the dark, baggy suit].
-
Amazing that some folks still cling to the 'identification' of Messrs. Shelley and 'plaid-shirted' Lovelady in Couch. 'Shelley' is in fact Mr. Danny Arce. We don't know who 'Lovelady' is.............
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkLznjfV/Couch-arce-plaid.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hj7nh3YS/COUCH-PLAID.gif)
-
Hi Dan and Alan, I hope that you both are doing well. I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery. I see no problem with them walking and then Billy running, and it appears that Bill is starting to before they are out of the film. Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan and Alan, I hope that you both are doing well. I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery. I see no problem with them walking and then Billy running, and it appears that Bill is starting to before they are out of the film. Sincerely yours, Michael
At least you can see they aren't walking together.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after he heard the three shots he ran across the street "to the corner of the park" where he runs into Calvery coming the other way. She was crying and told him JFK had been shot. Shelley then returns to the TSBD building steps, presumably following Calvery, who Lovelady reports, comes running up to his position on the steps.
In his WC testimony Lovelady makes it clear that he is still on the steps when Calvery comes up to him and tells him JFK has been shot. It is after this he and Shelley head towards the railroad (something they both omit in their affidavits).
IMO, the clip in question shows Calvery at the steps with Shelley returning to the steps.
The identification of Shelley and Lovelady you are proposing is strained for a couple of reasons.
1) The men aren't walking together in the Darnell clip.
2) For Lovelady to be one of the men he would've had to have had his encounter with Calvery before this moment. This is highly unlikely.
These points are definitely worth considering.
-
At least you can see they aren't walking together.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the assassination, Shelley states that after he heard the three shots he ran across the street "to the corner of the park" where he runs into Calvery coming the other way. She was crying and told him JFK had been shot. Shelley then returns to the TSBD building steps, presumably following Calvery, who Lovelady reports, comes running up to his position on the steps.
In his WC testimony Lovelady makes it clear that he is still on the steps when Calvery comes up to him and tells him JFK has been shot. It is after this he and Shelley head towards the railroad (something they both omit in their affidavits).
IMO, the clip in question shows Calvery at the steps with Shelley returning to the steps.
The identification of Shelley and Lovelady you are proposing is strained for a couple of reasons.
1) The men aren't walking together in the Darnell clip.
2) For Lovelady to be one of the men he would've had to have had his encounter with Calvery before this moment. This is highly unlikely.
These points are definitely worth considering.
Hi Dan and Alan, Unfortunately I have known for a long time that it is 100% Billy and Bill in Couch. I just cannot post the pictures because of the porno site. But put in Billy Lovelady JFK and when the Billy Nolan Lovelady at Prayer Man comes up click on it and look at the huge Richard E. Sprague picture of Billy and Bill in Couch. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan and Alan, Unfortunately I have known for a long time that it is 100% Billy and Bill in Couch. I just cannot post the pictures because of the porno site. But put in Billy Lovelady JFK and when the Billy Nolan Lovelady at Prayer Man comes up click on it and look at the huge Richard E. Sprague picture of Billy and Bill in Couch. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
I just cannot post the pictures because of the porno site
??
I think it's one of those "agree to disagree" things.
I can only lay out my reasons for why I'm convinced that particular identification is incorrect.
All the best Thumb1:
-
What porno site?
I’ve seen all the pictures, and it seems to be mostly a case of wishful thinking.
-
What porno site?
I’ve seen all the pictures, and it seems to be mostly a case of wishful thinking.
Hi John and Dan, It is the Prayer Man site. It is rigged that you cannot post anything from it because it states that it is a porno site. I am sorry. I thought everybody knew this! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Here is a picture of SSA Sam Kinney carrying a metal clean up bucket at Parkland. Notice how the metal shines like in Prayer Man. It is only metal that shines like this not a glass soda bottle. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Kinney_1.png)
-
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-201.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/lovelady.jpg)
Here is a pretty good Couch frame from the Richard E. Sprague Collection with a Martin frame for comparison. It shows Shelley and Lovelady with Shelley wearing brown and his hairstyle and Lovelady wearing plaid and his bald spot. Sincerely yours, Michael
-
No, it shows two people that some folks want to assume are Lovelady and Shelley. Those little “plaid” lines are artifacts from enhancement that appear on the “Shelley” figure too.
-
No, it shows two people that some folks want to assume are Lovelady and Shelley. Those little “plaid” lines are artifacts from enhancement that appear on the “Shelley” figure too.
Hi John, The artifacts that you talk about cover everybody, but they only make Billy's shirt plaid; nope it is already plaid! It is clear in the enlargement. Our site does not have the capability for these enlargements anymore, unfortunately. Thank you for your insightful observation! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Zoom in on the top row of photographs and you’ll see the artifacts all over “Shelley’s” shirt. And his head as well.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-201.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
-
Zoom in on the top row of photographs and you’ll see the artifacts all over “Shelley’s” shirt. And his head as well.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-201.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
Hi John, Yes, you are correct; however, Bill's suit is still brown!; Billy's shirt is still plaid; other people's shirts are still white; their clothes are still black; Lupe Maciel Whitaker's coat still has the pattern on it etc. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
"Lucy" Lupe Maciel Whitaker Credit Linda Zambanini
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/whitaker-lupe-3.jpg)
-
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-201.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/lovelady.jpg)
Here is a pretty good Couch frame from the Richard E. Sprague Collection with a Martin frame for comparison. It shows Shelley and Lovelady with Shelley wearing brown and his hairstyle and Lovelady wearing plaid and his bald spot. Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Michael, I think, if you're going to push this identification it's only fair you are challenged on it.
In the gif I posted below it shows that the two men are not walking together. You acknowledge as much yourself.
The pic you have posted is slightly deceptive in that it shows the two men stood side by side, giving the impression they are walking together - but they're not.
As I pointed out, the man who is initially behind moves very quickly in front and accelerates away. If the clip was a few seconds longer they would be nowhere near each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj7DvFrD/Gerda-Darnell1-00-00-00-00-00-30.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Previously you posted:
I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD.
However, in the gif this woman runs straight by them. It is clearly not the moment when Lovelady and Shelley interact with Gloria Clavery. Which leaves you with an insurmountable problem as far as the identification is concerned -
When did the interaction with Gloria Calvery take place?
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
-
Hi Michael, I think, if you're going to push this identification it's only fair you are challenged on it.
In the gif I posted below it shows that the two men are not walking together. You acknowledge as much yourself.
The pic you have posted is slightly deceptive in that it shows the two men stood side by side, giving the impression they are walking together - but they're not.
As I pointed out, the man who is initially behind moves very quickly in front and accelerates away. If the clip was a few seconds longer they would be nowhere near each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj7DvFrD/Gerda-Darnell1-00-00-00-00-00-30.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Previously you posted:
I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD.
However, in the gif this woman runs straight by them. It is clearly not the moment when Lovelady and Shelley interact with Gloria Clavery. Which leaves you with an insurmountable problem as far as the identification is concerned -
When did the interaction with Gloria Calvery take place?
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Hi Dan. Remember I conceded immediately after your last post that they did not see Gloria. Bill was Gloria's best man at her wedding. So after the testimony of Joe Molina was out that Gloria cryingly had told him that the President had been shot, her experience as well as a Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles encounter inside the TSBD were added. Your finding a running Billy is confirmed by his testimony of I was doing a fast walk; trotting! Also Bill seems to be picking up his pace after Billy! Thank you for your helpful input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan, Bill and Billy appear to be trying to catch up with Officer Smith. Also, for falsehoods in their testimonies, you can add that they did not turn around and watch the Officer Baker entrance, and it did not take three minutes for them to leave the TSBD steps. Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/smith-lovelady-shelley.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
-
Also, for falsehoods in their testimonies, you can add that they did not turn around and watch the Officer Baker entrance, and it did not take three minutes for them to leave the TSBD steps.
Or, those things are true and your two blurry Couch figures are not who you think they are.
-
Hi Dan. Remember I conceded immediately after your last post that they did not see Gloria. Bill was Gloria's best man at her wedding. So after the testimony of Joe Molina was out that Gloria cryingly had told him that the President had been shot, her experience as well as a Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles encounter inside the TSBD were added. Your finding a running Billy is confirmed by his testimony of I was doing a fast walk; trotting! Also Bill seems to be picking up his pace after Billy! Thank you for your helpful input! Sincerely yours, Michael
The question I was hoping you would answer was - when did the interaction between Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery take place?
The only answer that you can give, as I understand it, is that it happened before the clip which you believe shows Shelley and Lovelady.
This would have Shelley going out to where the traffic lights are, meeting with Calvery and following her back to the TSBD, Calvery telling Billy Lovelady about the shooting and Shelley/Lovelady walking a good distance down the Elm Street extension before Baker had even gotten off his bike.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but when do you believe the interaction between Shelley and Calvery, then Lovelady and Calvery took place?
Thank you so much for raising this fascinating topic Thumb1: Thumb1:
-
The question I was hoping you would answer was - when did the interaction between Shelley, Lovelady and Calvery take place?
The only answer that you can give, as I understand it, is that it happened before the clip which you believe shows Shelley and Lovelady.
This would have Shelley going out to where the traffic lights are, meeting with Calvery and following her back to the TSBD, Calvery telling Billy Lovelady about the shooting and Shelley/Lovelady walking a good distance down the Elm Street extension before Baker had even gotten off his bike.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but when do you believe the interaction between Shelley and Calvery, then Lovelady and Calvery took place?
Thank you so much for raising this fascinating topic Thumb1: Thumb1:
Hi Dan, I guess I was not clear, sorry! I am saying that the Calvery encounter did not happen, the looking at Marrion Baker did not happen; the encounter inside of the TSBD with Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles did not happen; the claim that it took three minutes to leave the steps did not happen, etc. Testimonies are full of errors and manipulation; pictures override these! Thank you for your participation in this fascinating topic! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_d9e5fd25.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_mURI_temp_d9e5fd25.jpg)
Hi, This is how a 1960s Dr Pepper bottle acts in the sunlight. It is not as reflective as you would think it would be! Sincerely yours, Michael
This top picture will do an enlargement!!! Just move the bold black line over!
-
(https://harveyandlee.net/TSBD_Elevator/2_shelleys.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Lovelady-and-shelley-in-couch-okt-201.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PA-15455563.jpg)
Hi, Here is an interesting picture of Bill and Lee working together in New Orleans. Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan, I guess I was not clear, sorry! I am saying that the Calvery encounter did not happen, the looking at Marrion Baker did not happen; the encounter inside of the TSBD with Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles did not happen; the claim that it took three minutes to leave the steps did not happen, etc. Testimonies are full of errors and manipulation; pictures override these! Thank you for your participation in this fascinating topic! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Michael, in my opinion there can be little doubt the encounter with Calvery took place. That she came up to the steps in an almost hysterical state is confirmed by multiple people:
Frazier - "Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy...She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people."
Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Molina: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
There is no doubt Calvery came running up to the steps in a very upset state telling people the President was shot.
It is interesting to note that Officer Baker observes the following as he approaches the TSBD building steps:
Baker - ...there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."
This might be a reference to Calvery who, I believe, raced back to the TSBD building as soon as she saw the headshot and was at the steps before Baker arrived. If this is the case she would've also crossed paths with officer Joe Marshall Smith, who is believed to be the officer at the far end of the Elm Street extension in the Darnell/Couch clip. He reports:
Smith - Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Both Smith and Baker appear to be reporting a very upset female who was an eye-witness to the shooting, meaning she had very quickly moved from a position further down on Elm Street back to the area immediately in front of the TSBD building. So, when Shelley reports, within two hours of the assassination:
"...I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
There is little reason to doubt this.
Obviously, this is a massive problem for the identification yourself and Brian are trying to propose. Your initial attempts to show the "Gloria encounter" were thwarted so you've simply ditched the whole thing as you know how problematic it is for your identification. From fully acknowledging the encounter happened and a failed attempt to demonstrate it, to now taking the stand it never happened. And all within the space of a few short posts.
That's the kind of flexibility many yoga gurus would be proud of.
At least you've not taken Brian's road, who appears to be doubling-down on his insane suggestion that the woman who races straight past the two men within a fraction of a second has, somehow, stopped for a chat.
What's funny is the clip he posted to show this "interaction" in slow motion actually shows "Shelley" looking away from the girl as she streaks past and that "Lovelady" is stood in between the girl and "Shelley" for the nano-second this interaction is supposed to have taken place.
But, like you, his mind is made up and no amount of evidence is going to change that.
That said, I do believe both Shelley and Lovelady are liars but there is a pattern to their lying which doesn't involve the reality of the encounter with Calvery. And why these two so-called ordinary workmen should be lying to the authorities from day one is another subject altogether.
-
Hi Michael, in my opinion there can be little doubt the encounter with Calvery took place. That she came up to the steps in an almost hysterical state is confirmed by multiple people:
Frazier - "Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy...She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people."
Mr. Ball: Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Molina: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball: What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
There is no doubt Calvery came running up to the steps in a very upset state telling people the President was shot.
It is interesting to note that Officer Baker observes the following as he approaches the TSBD building steps:
Baker - ...there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."
This might be a reference to Calvery who, I believe, raced back to the TSBD building as soon as she saw the headshot and was at the steps before Baker arrived. If this is the case she would've also crossed paths with officer Joe Marshall Smith, who is believed to be the officer at the far end of the Elm Street extension in the Darnell/Couch clip. He reports:
Smith - Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Both Smith and Baker appear to be reporting a very upset female who was an eye-witness to the shooting, meaning she had very quickly moved from a position further down on Elm Street back to the area immediately in front of the TSBD building. So, when Shelley reports, within two hours of the assassination:
"...I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
There is little reason to doubt this.
Obviously, this is a massive problem for the identification yourself and Brian are trying to propose. Your initial attempts to show the "Gloria encounter" were thwarted so you've simply ditched the whole thing as you know how problematic it is for your identification. From fully acknowledging the encounter happened and a failed attempt to demonstrate it, to now taking the stand it never happened. And all within the space of a few short posts.
That's the kind of flexibility many yoga gurus would be proud of.
At least you've not taken Brian's road, who appears to be doubling-down on his insane suggestion that the woman who races straight past the two men within a fraction of a second has, somehow, stopped for a chat.
What's funny is the clip he posted to show this "interaction" in slow motion actually shows "Shelley" looking away from the girl as she streaks past and that "Lovelady" is stood in between the girl and "Shelley" for the nano-second this interaction is supposed to have taken place.
But, like you, his mind is made up and no amount of evidence is going to change that.
That said, I do believe both Shelley and Lovelady are liars but there is a pattern to their lying which doesn't involve the reality of the encounter with Calvery. And why these two so-called ordinary workmen should be lying to the authorities from day one is another subject altogether.
Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!"...I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
At his W.C. testimony Joe Molina says he sees Gloria Calvery arrive in the lobby and discusses the shooting. So did Gloria twice say the same story, first with Bill Shelley and then in the lobby? Or was there a little pow wow afterwards? This would also indicate that Calvery’s appearance inside the T.S.B.D. would be several minutes after the assassination and not on the TSBD steps!!!
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe ,I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.
-
Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!"...I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
At his W.C. testimony Joe Molina says he sees Gloria Calvery arrive in the lobby and discusses the shooting. So did Gloria twice say the same story, first with Bill Shelley and then in the lobby? Or was there a little pow wow afterwards? This would also indicate that Calvery’s appearance inside the T.S.B.D. would be several minutes after the assassination and not on the TSBD steps!!!
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe ,I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.
Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!
Hi Michael, when you say "No" in the quote above, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
No, what?
And just to be clear, I am saying, according to his affidavit, that Shelley first met Gloria after he had run across the street from the steps to the "corner of the park". He then followed her back to the steps where she was telling everyone that JFK had been shot.
For the benefit of clarity I will outline my own understanding of this aspect of the case. What follows is my own, personal interpretation of the evidence as I understand it. It's my own opinion.
Gloria is stood with her work colleagues when she sees JFK's head explode. She gets a good view of it and in the pandemonium that breaks out after the head-shot she races back to the TSBD with Karan Hicks (the woman in white). At around the same moment Shelley runs across the street from the TSBD building and encounters Gloria as she is running back to the building. The respective routes are shown in a version of the Roberdeau map below (which I've cleaned up for my own purposes):
(https://i.postimg.cc/d36pcQBt/Roberdeau-Map-Close-Clean1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
According to the scale Roberdeau uses, the distance from Gloria's marked position on Elm Street to the base of the TSBD steps is approximately 150 feet. Jogging around 6mph will cover this distance in around 17 seconds. Running at a modest 8mph will cover this distance in just under 13 seconds.
After running into Shelley (at position "A"), Gloria continues towards the steps but hasn't gone far when she encounters officer Joe Marshall Smith, who had been at the intersection of Elm and Houston, holding up traffic on Elm, but who immediately made his way towards the TSBD building after hearing the shots:
"...and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here."
The bushes being referred to are those behind Gloria's position on Elm Street. Smith can be seen making his way up the Elm Street extension in Darnell.
Gloria then runs on to the TSBD steps where she tells those stood on the steps what has happened. Buell Frazier, the figure stood at the top of the steps, describes talking to Sarah [Stanton] when Gloria approaches the steps:
"...right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy...She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people."
Even though she is telling everyone in general it is Billy Lovelady who interacts with her. Lovelady is stood on the steps when Gloria comes running up:
"...I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was..."
Molina, who is stood directly outside the lobby, steps inside and is there when Gloria and Karan make their way up the steps and enter the building:
"...I was in the lobby standing there and she [Gloria] came in with this other girl...She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent."
It is important to note that Molina notices Gloria is with someone else.
As Baker approaches the steps he notices a woman in great distress:
"...there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."
It is my opinion that the Darnell clip of the TSBD step fits the general story outlined above.
In the clip below we see Gloria near the base of the steps wearing a black headscarf. It is the moment she is telling everyone there about the shooting. The bald man facing her can only be Lovelady who is questioning her about the shooting. Frazier looks on from his position at the top of the steps. Baker is approaching the scene as the highly upset Gloria recounts what has happened. Directly behind Gloria is Shelley, the man in the baggy, dark suit who appears to be moving towards the steps [presumably after returning from the other side of the street] then turns to his left.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
I'm sure there is a better copy of this moment out there somewhere.
Below is a (very poor) still on which I've labelled the main players in case there's any confusion:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTcf4xkk/Calvery-at-steps-close-arrows.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
As I say,it's just my opinion but, if accepted, it does have a very interesting knock-on effect in that it reveals both Shelley and Lovelady lied to the WC about how long it took them to re-enter the TSBD building by the little known (at the time) west door.
-
Hi Dan,
"Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!
Hi Michael, when you say "No" in the quote above, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
No, what?
And just to be clear, I am saying, according to his affidavit, that Shelley first met Gloria after he had run across the street from the steps to the "corner of the park". He then followed her back to the steps where she was telling everyone that JFK had been shot." Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran! And Billy said a fast walk or trotting! The corner of the park is the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade where Billy thought the shots came from. It is not the concrete island; it is not Elm Street. It is what is pictured in Couch! There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there. Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby. The people on the steps are different people. Molina is still on the steps. He is the only one out of the group! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran! And Billy said a fast walk or trotting! The corner of the park is the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade where Billy thought the shots came from. It is not the concrete island; it is not Elm Street. It is what is pictured in Couch! There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there. Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby. The people on the steps are different people. Molina is still on the steps. He is the only one out of the group! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hey Michael, I believe the word is "wowser".
In your Reply#105 you were trying to sell the idea that the "Gloria Encounter" happened as she ran past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in the Couch clip:
"I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD."
This was quickly dispelled.
In your Reply#138 you had decided the "Gloria Encounter" hadn't happened at all:
"I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery."
Now we have the encounter happening at the Grassy Knoll:
"There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there."
Your approach to interpreting the evidence is "fluid", to say the least. I can't wait for the next installment.
As for the rest of your post, it's difficult to know where to begin:
Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran!
Except in the Couch clip "Shelley" is walking.
Shelley said he ran across the street before he met Gloria, he didn't say he walked down the street.
There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there.
Except Shelley was on his own when he first encountered Gloria.
Officer Smith met Gloria as he was approaching the TSBD then "immediately proceeded" towards the "bushes" at the end of the Elm Street extension. You have him already in that area when he meets Gloria.
Lovelady was on the steps of the TSBD building when he first encountered Gloria.
"Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby."
So Gloria and Hicks waited at the bottom of the steps until Molina returned, then decided to enter the TSBD building still hysterical about the assassination of JFK??
I'll stick with own interpretation of events if that's okay, I'm not really seeing anything in your theory I can get on board with.
All the best Thumb1:
-
Hey Michael, I believe the word is "wowser".
In your Reply#105 you were trying to sell the idea that the "Gloria Encounter" happened as she ran past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in the Couch clip:
"I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD."
This was quickly dispelled.
In your Reply#138 you had decided the "Gloria Encounter" hadn't happened at all:
"I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery."
Now we have the encounter happening at the Grassy Knoll:
"There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there."
Your approach to interpreting the evidence is "fluid", to say the least. I can't wait for the next installment.
As for the rest of your post, it's difficult to know where to begin:
Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran!
Except in the Couch clip "Shelley" is walking.
Shelley said he ran across the street before he met Gloria, he didn't say he walked down the street.
There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there.
Except Shelley was on his own when he first encountered Gloria.
Officer Smith met Gloria as he was approaching the TSBD then "immediately proceeded" towards the "bushes" at the end of the Elm Street extension. You have him already in that area when he meets Gloria.
Lovelady was on the steps of the TSBD building when he first encountered Gloria.
"Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby."
So Gloria and Hicks waited at the bottom of the steps until Molina returned, then decided to enter the TSBD building still hysterical about the assassination of JFK??
I'll stick with own interpretation of events if that's okay, I'm not really seeing anything in your theory I can get on board with.
All the best Thumb1:
Hi Dan, I will always be fluid, and I will say I stand corrected immediately when corrected! Like I said before, you can see Bill picking up the pace after Billy starts running after Officer Smith. They all converged down by the concrete arcade by the picket fence where Gloria already was! As for Molina, he was always on the TSBD steps, so he did not return from anywhere! He met Gloria inside of the TSBD like he says in the lobby after Gloria had returned later! Thank you for all of your helpful valuable insights! Sincerely yours, Michael
Mr. SMITH. I didn’t know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. [7H535]
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No sir; except that maybe it was power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the—let’s put a No. 5 there [CE354] at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book depository Building. [7H535]
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was echo from the shots in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from.
Mr. SMITH. Yes. [7H536]
-
Idk if this is anything, but in Mr. Alan Fords Sept 16th post of slow motion from Darnell film, where Fords green arrow is pointing, a slender
man with a solid tone long sleeve shirt with hair similar to Oswald, (parted on the left side of head same way) becomes revealed among several women. He may be about 5’9” cause he’s not taller than any of the women.
The face dimension seems pretty close but maybe somebody else can show something to definitely rule one way or the other if this guy is Oswald or paste over a profile of Oswald to see how close it matches.
-
Idk if this is anything, but in Mr. Alan Fords Sept 16th post of slow motion from Darnell film, where Fords green arrow is pointing, a slender
man with a solid tone long sleeve shirt with hair similar to Oswald, (parted on the left side of head same way) becomes revealed among several women. He may be about 5’9” cause he’s not taller than any of the women.
The face dimension seems pretty close but maybe somebody else can show something to definitely rule one way or the other if this guy is Oswald or paste over a profile of Oswald to see how close it matches.
Hi Zeon, Here is some work done I think by Jake Sykes.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/100_percent_nl.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Idk if this is anything, but in Mr. Alan Fords Sept 16th post of slow motion from Darnell film, where Fords green arrow is pointing, a slender
man with a solid tone long sleeve shirt with hair similar to Oswald, (parted on the left side of head same way) becomes revealed among several women. He may be about 5’9” cause he’s not taller than any of the women.
The face dimension seems pretty close but maybe somebody else can show something to definitely rule one way or the other if this guy is Oswald or paste over a profile of Oswald to see how close it matches.
Do you mean this man, Mr. Mason?
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgzWryyG/Man-in-Couch-marked.jpg)
He's not Mr. Oswald. Here he is in Darnell:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqXsWJtP/Darnell-Man-in-Couch.jpg)
During the motorcade he was out in the line of spectators by the street.
It was once thought by some he might be Mr. Shelley..........................but no!
-
Hi Zeon, Here is some work done I think by Jake Sykes.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/100_percent_nl.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley!
Hi Michael, I won't bother asking you to cite this unsubstantiated claim as it is completely bogus.
Whichever poor soul came up with that ID had zero knowledge of MacNeil's actual movements and it's a pity unsuspecting researchers such as yourself have been hoodwinked by this nonsense.
Just type into Google (or whatever browser) "JFK Robert MacNeil" and a large number of videos and articles appear concerning Robert MacNeil and the assassination.
In every single one of them MacNeil makes it clear that as soon as he gets off the bus he races up to the Grassy Knoll. After being there for a few minutes he heads for the TSBD building.
This absolutely refutes the bogus identification you are innocently proposing.
To be honest, it took me but a few seconds to find these videos and articles and I honestly think it's something you should consider doing before simply posting such easily refutable claims.
All the best Thumb1:
LATER EDIT:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/100_percent_nl.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
:D :D :D :D
That's brilliant!!
-
I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley!
Hi Michael, I won't bother asking you to cite this unsubstantiated claim as it is completely bogus.
Whichever poor soul came up with that ID had zero knowledge of MacNeil's actual movements and it's a pity unsuspecting researchers such as yourself have been hoodwinked by this nonsense.
Just type into Google (or whatever browser) "JFK Robert MacNeil" and a large number of videos and articles appear concerning Robert MacNeil and the assassination.
In every single one of them MacNeil makes it clear that as soon as he gets off the bus he races up to the Grassy Knoll. After being there for a few minutes he heads for the TSBD building.
This absolutely refutes the bogus identification you are innocently proposing.
To be honest, it took me but a few seconds to find these videos and articles and I honestly think it's something you should consider doing before simply posting such easily refutable claims.
All the best Thumb1:
LATER EDIT:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/100_percent_nl.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
:D :D :D :D
That's brilliant!!
Dan, am I remembering correctly that Robert MacNeil indicated that he thought that he encountered LHO in the lobby of the TSBD? If so, do we know what the time frame of the video in question is?
-
Dan, am I remembering correctly that Robert MacNeil indicated that he thought that he encountered LHO in the lobby of the TSBD? If so, do we know what the time frame of the video in question is?
Hey Charles, not 100% sure MacNeil is as explicit as to say it was Oswald with any kind of certainty.
A good example would be this interview. When asked if he thought it was Oswald he encountered he answers:
"Well, if the evidence points that way I suppose I have to". [@3:40]
-
Pierce Allman also claimed to be the guy who asked Oswald where the phone was. MacNeil didn’t have a crew cut.
-
MacNeil (facing camera) climbing up the overpass.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wrgAAOSwbsBXnDpu/s-l1600.jpg)
-
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CancellareUnger.jpg)
MacNeil sprinted to the phone and dialed the NBC newsroom in New York before telephone lines became overloaded.
Hi Dan, Or he had time to make it to the steps like your Gloria does! Probably neither Gloria or anybody not immediately in front of the steps had time to make it on film in Darnell! Thank you for your input and your lecture! Sincerely yours, Michael
I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley!
Hi Michael, I won't bother asking you to cite this unsubstantiated claim as it is completely bogus.
Whichever poor soul came up with that ID had zero knowledge of MacNeil's actual movements and it's a pity unsuspecting researchers such as yourself have been hoodwinked by this nonsense.
Just type into Google (or whatever browser) "JFK Robert MacNeil" and a large number of videos and articles appear concerning Robert MacNeil and the assassination.
In every single one of them MacNeil makes it clear that as soon as he gets off the bus he races up to the Grassy Knoll. After being there for a few minutes he heads for the TSBD building.
This absolutely refutes the bogus identification you are innocently proposing.
To be honest, it took me but a few seconds to find these videos and articles and I honestly think it's something you should consider doing before simply posting such easily refutable claims.
All the best Thumb1:
LATER EDIT:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/100_percent_nl.jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
:D :D :D :D
That's brilliant!!
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
-
Hey Charles, not 100% sure MacNeil is as explicit as to say it was Oswald with any kind of certainty.
A good example would be this interview. When asked if he thought it was Oswald he encountered he answers:
"Well, if the evidence points that way I suppose I have to". [@3:40]
Thanks, that is an interesting interview. It would be helpful to be able to find out if the timing of the video in question could possibly work with MacNeil’s entry into the TSBD.
-
Thanks, that is an interesting interview. It would be helpful to be able to find out if the timing of the video in question could possibly work with MacNeil’s entry into the TSBD.
Hi Everybody, Please notice that Robert MacNeil said that he was looking for a telephone and met a young man in short sleeves out on the steps who said that you better go inside. Oswald had his sleeves rolled up! MacNeil says he went back outside and met Euins who told him the President had been shot, then MacNeil went back inside again and got a telephone and made his second NBC report! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
In this video, made shortly after the assassination, MacNeil says he entered the TSBD “not more than 4-minutes after the shooting” (beginning around time of 1:02:00).
MacNeil has also said in several interviews that, after he called his office to report the shots, a young black man and another man were reporting their sightings of a man with a rifle to the police. I would assume these were Euins and Brennan. Both of who said they reported their accounts to the police just a few minutes after the shooting. Now, if anyone can help determine the timing of the video in question, it might help us to be able to decide if it is possible that the man approaching the steps is MacNeil.
-
In this video, made shortly after the assassination, MacNeil says he entered the TSBD “not more than 4-minutes after the shooting” (beginning around time of 1:02:00).
MacNeil has also said in several interviews that, after he called his office to report the shots, a young black man and another man were reporting their sightings of a man with a rifle to the police. I would assume these were Euins and Brennan. Both of who said they reported their accounts to the police just a few minutes after the shooting. Now, if anyone can help determine the timing of the video in question, it might help us to be able to decide if it is possible that the man approaching the steps is MacNeil.
It's definitely Mr. MacNeil in Darnell, whose doorway frames were expertly timestamped a few years back to 3min54sec post-Z313
-
It's definitely Mr. MacNeil in Darnell, whose doorway frames were expertly timestamped a few years back to 3min54sec post-Z313
Thanks, do you know who the expert time stamper is? And more details about how it was accomplished?
-
Thanks, do you know who the expert time stamper is? And more details about how it was accomplished?
Hi Charles and Alan, There was an expert here in 2013 named Martin Hinrich or Hinrichs. He was the best! He and Gerda could do amazing things, and Martin had a huge thread on all of the JFK Assassination films' time stamps based on an overlapping/connecting of the same event in both films, and then continuing on from there. The JFK researchers had put the Oswald and MacNeil encounter at 12:33pm, with MacNeil going in and Oswald leaving the building. Thank you both for your valuable insightful input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
It's definitely Mr. MacNeil in Darnell, whose doorway frames were expertly timestamped a few years back to 3min54sec post-Z313
The Darnell clip in question has Baker racing across the Elm Street extension.
Is this supposed to have taken place almost four minutes after the assassination?
-
The Malcolm Couch film starts with a single shot in which we can see Baker running towards the TSBD, which then pans to the left to show Elm Street.
In what universe is this almost four minutes after the assassination?
Which "expert" came up with that timing?
-
The Darnell clip in question has Baker racing across the Elm Street extension.
Is this supposed to have taken place almost four minutes after the assassination?
Obviously, Mr. O'Meara------------we have the credible testimony of Messrs. Lovelady & Shelley on that score.
All kidding aside...................... don't fret, I was just playing along with Messrs. Welch & Collins' gag. And it was a good one, in fairness
-
Obviously, Mr. O'Meara------------we have the credible testimony of Messrs. Lovelady & Shelley on that score.
All kidding aside...................... don't fret, I was just playing along with Messrs. Welch & Collins' gag. And it was a good one, in fairness
Phew! 8)
I thought things were just about to go sideways.
So, back to the original point - the man in the baggy, dark suit cannot be MacNeil.
After getting off the bus MacNeil heads directly for the Grassy Knoll.
It would be good to get an exact timing of when the Couch clip begins but an approximation of 25 seconds after the shooting ends shouldn't be too far wide of the mark.
There is no way MacNeil can get to the Grassy Knoll, then the TSBD steps in this time.
-
Phew! 8)
I thought things were just about to go sideways.
So, back to the original point - the man in the baggy, dark suit cannot be MacNeil.
After getting off the bus MacNeil heads directly for the Grassy Knoll.
It would be good to get an exact timing of when the Couch clip begins but an approximation of 25 seconds after the shooting ends shouldn't be too far wide of the mark.
There is no way MacNeil can get to the Grassy Knoll, then the TSBD steps in this time.
Which film does this clip come from? Where can it be found in the context of the rest of the film?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
-
Which film does this clip come from? Where can it be found in the context of the rest of the film?
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Prayerstable.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYq5d3Fh/bakerdashlargecrop2dey5kdj.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
It's a clip from Jimmy Darnell's film.
Like the Couch film it shows the moment of Baker's dash towards the TSBD building.
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYq5d3Fh/bakerdashlargecrop2dey5kdj.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
It's a clip from Jimmy Darnell's film.
Like the Couch film it shows the moment of Baker's dash towards the TSBD building.
Thanks, some of the versions of the Couch Darnell film online don’t show that part of it. I agree that MacNeil was elsewhere according to his statements and the other photograph shown in this thread that shows him near the railroad tracks.
-
Thanks, some of the versions of the Couch Darnell film online don’t show that part of it. I agree that MacNeil was elsewhere according to his statements and the other photograph shown in this thread that shows him near the railroad tracks.
Hi Charles and Dan, MacNeil was actually on the press bus when Couch and Darnell were filming! I agree. The man at the bottom of the steps cannot be MacNeil. I stand corrected! Thank you both for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Charles and Dan, MacNeil was actually on the press bus when Couch and Darnell were filming! I agree. The man at the bottom of the steps cannot be MacNeil. I stand corrected! Thank you both for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael
This brings us back to the identification of this man as Bill Shelley.
In what follows I am going to use an estimation of 25 seconds after the head-shot for when the Darnell clip begins. It is an assumption in lieu of an exact timing but cannot be too far from the actual time.
I would like to examine the feasibility of the scenario I outlined in Reply#171, which was my personal opinion of the identification of Calvery on the steps of the TSBD building as shown in the Darnell clip.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jsGhYdh/Roberdeau-Map-Close-Clean2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
From her position marked on the map above, Calvery runs up to the position marked A, where she passes Shelley, who has come from the front steps.
The distance from Calvery's position to the front steps is approximately 150 feet (using Roberdeau's scale). At a modest run of 8mph this distance can be covered in less than 13 seconds. In the 25 seconds allotted she would have to reach point"A", interact with Shelley, then point "B", interact with officer Smith, then reach the TSBD steps.
Shelley, Lovelady and Smith make the point that Gloria was running (I'm assuming the hysterical woman is Gloria). Both her interactions [with Shelley and Smith] appear to be quick - she simply tells Shelley the President has been shot and as soon as she tells Smith that shots were coming from the"bushes" he immediately heads off in that direction.
In the Darnell clip we first see Smith about half way up the Elm Street extension heading towards the bushes that would've been directly behind Calvery's position as she stood on Elm Street. If we can extrapolate Smith's movements "backwards" it seems reasonable to assume he has crossed paths with Gloria some 5 - 10 seconds before the Darnell clip begins.
In the Darnell clip Gloria, wearing a black headscarf and stood about 2 or 3 steps up, appears to be facing a bald-headed man who takes a steps down towards her. This is Lovelady, who recounts his interaction with Gloria while he is on the front steps. It is around this moment that Frazier, stood at the top of the steps, recalls a woman in distress, telling the people on the steps about the shooting, in a "low kind of hollering".
Baker reaches the area near the bottom of the steps towards the end of the clip around which time he reports a woman screaming "They shot that man" or something to that effect.
Shelley, who ran across the street to around point "A", returns to the bottom of the front steps and can be seen in the Darnell clip as he reaches this position - he takes a step or two towards Gloria, then turns to his left, facing down the Elm Street extension towards the railroad.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNMWVD0B/Darnellstepsnamed.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
This brings us back to the identification of this man as Bill Shelley.
I agree with you on the Ms. Calvery & Mr. Lovelady identifications, but not even Mr. Shelley's suit made him look this broad:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7fPBW76/Man-in-Darnell.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/504k6JWy/bill-shelley-2-cropped.jpg)
The man in Darnell is too large IMO
-
Baker reaches the area near the bottom of the steps towards the end of the clip around which time he reports a woman screaming "They shot that man" or something to that effect.
Separate issue, so treating it separately here.............
Officer Baker is not heading for the steps.
Mr. BAKER - At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice anything else?
Mr. BAKER - Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."
He's half-telling us an all-important fact here: there was indeed a woman standing, and Darnell shows him running in a straight line not for the entrance steps but for her:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGBVM2jc/Darnell-woman-with-paper-sack.gif)
-
Question!
How many seconds after the final shot did this DPD radio dispatch go out?
“Stand by one. All units and officers in vicinity of station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm.”
-
I agree with you on the Ms. Calvery & Mr. Lovelady identifications, but not even Mr. Shelley's suit made him look this broad:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7fPBW76/Man-in-Darnell.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/504k6JWy/bill-shelley-2-cropped.jpg)
The man in Darnell is too large IMO
There's no way to compare the physique of the two men in these pictures. All that can be said is that both are wearing baggy, dark coloured suits.
Lovelady's testimony (I really am not a fan of relying on his or Shelley's words unless I feel they are corroborated) states that Shelley was close by while he was having his interaction with Gloria. Shelley states he returned to the steps after meeting Gloria which I believe is what the Darnell clip shows. It seems fairly well established both men left this area together so we should see them in fairly close proximity during this moment.
I'm not seeing anything conclusive in terms of the comparison above to jettison the identification.
-
Separate issue, so treating it separately here.............
Officer Baker is not heading for the steps.
Mr. BAKER - At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice anything else?
Mr. BAKER - Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."
He's half-telling us an all-important fact here: there was indeed a woman standing, and Darnell shows him running in a straight line not for the entrance steps but for her:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGBVM2jc/Darnell-woman-with-paper-sack.gif)
Officer Baker is not heading for the steps.
Not to be pedantic but I actually said that "Baker reaches the area near the bottom of the steps", which is correct. The point I was making was that he was close enough to hear Gloria's "hysterics" and made a comment about it.
Darnell shows him running in a straight line not for the entrance steps but for her
It doesn't show him running "for her", it shows him running in her direction.
There is no credible reason why Baker has pulled up his bike and made a bee-line straight for the woman you are pointing out.
"What are you doing with a homemade paper bag?"
I'm not convinced.
-
Hi Dan and Alan,
According to Shelley,
“Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the westside door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1.30p.m. When I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept to furnish an affidavit.” credit the great Ray Mitcham! There was no Gloria encounter on the steps! It happened at the corner of the park----the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade like Bill and Officer Smith said! Thank you both for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Seems Vicki and Sarah must have taken ten minutes to exit the building.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461156 page 20
-
There's no way to compare the physique of the two men in these pictures. All that can be said is that both are wearing baggy, dark coloured suits.
I disagree. Look also at the footage of Mr. Shelley being led to the cop car with Messrs. Williams & Arce. He's not a big man. The guy is Darnell is too burly, broad-shouldered IMO
Lovelady's testimony (I really am not a fan of relying on his or Shelley's words unless I feel they are corroborated) states that Shelley was close by while he was having his interaction with Gloria.
Well, he and Mr. Shelley testify that NEITHER of them leaves the steps until after Ms. Calvery comes running up. Mr. Shelley (and you are under no illusion about this) is lying, and Mr. Lovelady is covering for him.
If what you are saying happened is what actually happened, what reason would Mr. Shelley possibly have for lying about it? He ran out, bumped into Ms. Calvery, then ran back to the steps. No big deal, right?
-
Darnell shows him running in a straight line not for the entrance steps but for her
It doesn't show him running "for her", it shows him running in her direction.
It does indeed. And what other reason would he have for running in her direction? Letters he urgently needs to post?
There is no credible reason why Baker has pulled up his bike and made a bee-line straight for the woman you are pointing out.
"What are you doing with a homemade paper bag?"
I'm not convinced.
Strawman.
What do you think she's holding up btw?
-
It does indeed. And what other reason would he have for running in her direction? Letters he urgently needs to post?
He's heading towards the TSBD building. The place where he thinks the shots are coming from.
What do you think he's doing?
Strawman.
??
How is it a strawman?
What do you think she's holding up btw?
Whatever it is it appears to have a sleeve.
-
He's heading towards the TSBD building.
But not the front steps. These---let me explain---are what would need to be ascended if one wishes to enter the building
The place where he thinks the shots are coming from.
What do you think he's doing?
I've already said: he's running over to the woman
??
How is it a strawman?
Read what you wrote, and compare it to my actual analysis
Whatever it is it appears to have a sleeve.
Has Mr. Welch hacked into Mr. O'Meara's account??
-
I disagree. Look also at the footage of Mr. Shelley being led to the cop car with Messrs. Williams & Arce. He's not a big man. The guy is Darnell is too burly, broad-shouldered IMO
Well, he and Mr. Shelley testify that NEITHER of them leaves the steps until after Ms. Calvery comes running up. Mr. Shelley (and you are under no illusion about this) is lying, and Mr. Lovelady is covering for him.
If what you are saying happened is what actually happened, what reason would Mr. Shelley possibly have for lying about it? He ran out, bumped into Ms. Calvery, then ran back to the steps. No big deal, right?
I agree, they don't leave the area of the steps until Gloria has come running up. After she tells Lovelady what happened they both head up the Elm Street extension.
In his affidavit, given shortly after the assassination, Shelley states he first ran across the street, met Gloria, then returned to the steps. I'm proposing that we are seeing Shelley doing exactly that in the Darnell clip. Lovelady testifies that he encounters Gloria while he is still on the steps, I'm proposing that's exactly what we are seeing in the Darnell clip. It's after this encounter both men head up the Elm Street extension.
Not 100% sure what you're issue is with that.
Is it because Shelley doesn't mention going out to meet Gloria in his WC testimony, therefore he's lying in his affidavit?
-
I agree, they don't leave the area of the steps until Gloria has come running up. After she tells Lovelady what happened they both head up the Elm Street extension.
In his affidavit, given shortly after the assassination, Shelley states he first ran across the street, met Gloria, then returned to the steps. I'm proposing that we are seeing Shelley doing exactly that in the Darnell clip. Lovelady testifies that he encounters Gloria while he is still on the steps, I'm proposing that's exactly what we are seeing in the Darnell clip. It's after this encounter both men head up the Elm Street extension.
Not 100% sure what you're issue is with that.
Is it because Shelley doesn't mention going out to meet Gloria in his WC testimony, therefore he's lying in his affidavit?
No, the question is: Why does Mr. Shelley----------with support from Mr. Lovelady-----------walk back for the WC the events he clearly narrated in his affidavit?
-
But not the front steps. These---let me explain---are what would need to be ascended if one wishes to enter the building
I've already said: he's running over to the woman
Read what you wrote, and compare it to my actual analysis
Has Mr. Welch hacked into Mr. O'Meara's account??
::)
I really can't be bothered with this nonsense Alan.
Explain in detail what you think Baker is doing from the moment he parks his bike to the moment he enters the TSBD.
-
No, the question is: Why does Mr. Shelley----------with support from Mr. Lovelady-----------walk back for the WC the events he clearly narrated in his affidavit?
Even this should be a simple question but it makes no sense.
"Why does Mr Shelley walk back for the WC the events he clearly narrated in his affidavit?"
What on earth does that mean?
What does this question mean?
Why does everything have to be so cryptic.
Notice, when I explain something it's really straight-forward and understandable but you have this drip-feed approach of half insight, half nonsense.
It's really boring.
-
::)
I really can't be bothered with this nonsense Alan.
That may have something to do with the fact that you have boxed yourself into the absurd claim that an officer running in the direction of the woman by the mailboxes has no interest in the woman by the mailboxes---------------no, he's just taking a scenic route to the front steps
Explain in detail what you think Baker is doing from the moment he parks his bike to the moment he enters the TSBD.
I've done it multiple times, Mr. O'Meara:
Officer Baker runs to a woman who is drawing loud attention to a long paper sack she has picked up and a banner on the sidewalk in front of her. After speaking with her, and taking a look at the items, he makes for the entrance.
Now: explain in detail what you think is the object which the woman by the mailboxes is holding up at an angle from her body. Be specific
-
Even this should be a simple question but it makes no sense.
"Why does Mr Shelley walk back for the WC the events he clearly narrated in his affidavit?"
What on earth does that mean?
What does this question mean?
Why does everything have to be so cryptic.
Notice, when I explain something it's really straight-forward and understandable but you have this drip-feed approach of half insight, half nonsense.
It's really boring.
~Grin~
You always get cranky like this when you're losing an argument. But I'll be patient with your mood swings.
Mr. Shelley-----------with support from Mr. Lovelady-----------deletes, in his WC testimony, the encounter he had with Ms. Calvery out by "the corner of the park". Why? What possible reason could he have for doing so?
-
~Grin~
You always get cranky like this when you're losing an argument. But I'll be patient with your mood swings.
Mr. Shelley-----------with support from Mr. Lovelady-----------deletes, in his WC testimony, the encounter he had with Ms. Calvery out by "the corner of the park". Why? What possible reason could he have for doing so?
:D
Losing the argument!!
What argument?
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Somehow we've gone from Baker racing across to a woman for some completely unknown reason to Shelley leaving out his initial meeting with Gloria.
Are these things connected?
Why don't you spell out what you're actually saying and then, maybe, we can have an argument about it.
-
:D
Losing the argument!!
What argument?
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Somehow we've gone from Baker racing across to a woman for some completely unknown reason to Shelley leaving out his initial meeting with Gloria.
Are these things connected?
Why don't you spell out what you're actually saying and then, maybe, we can have an argument about it.
Calm down, Mr. O'Meara. Deep breaths........... Thumb1:
Officer Baker is NOT racing across to that woman for some completely unknown reason. There is a perfectly good reason, which I've offered. And note that Officer Baker is not the only person running towards that woman: there is another woman running towards her also. The woman by the mailboxes is drawing attention to herself. Again, I've offered the reason why.
As for Mr. Shelley. Here's what he tells the WC:
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Upon this narrative, which is completely different to what he said in his same-day affidavit, Mr. Shelley builds the following absurd tale:
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
So I repeat the question you evidently are struggling to answer:
Why does Mr. Shelley--------with support from Mr. Lovelady---------pretend for the benefit of the WC that he didn't run off the steps and encounter Mrs. Calvery out by "the corner of the park"?
-
Calm down, Mr. O'Meara. Deep breaths........... Thumb1:
Officer Baker is NOT racing across to that woman for some completely unknown reason. There is a perfectly good reason, which I've offered. And note that Officer Baker is not the only person running towards that woman: there is another woman running towards her also. The woman by the mailboxes is drawing attention to herself. Again, I've offered the reason why.
As for Mr. Shelley. Here's what he tells the WC:
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Upon this narrative, which is completely different to what he said in his same-day affidavit, Mr. Shelley builds the following absurd tale:
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
So I repeat the question you evidently are struggling to answer:
Why does Mr. Shelley--------with support from Mr. Lovelady---------pretend for the benefit of the WC that he didn't run off the steps and encounter Mrs. Calvery out by "the corner of the park"?
Officer Baker is NOT racing across to that woman for some completely unknown reason. There is a perfectly good reason, which I've offered.
What reason?
What is it about the woman that causes Baker to pull his bike up and race over to her?
What does Baker see in the mass of confusion as he approaches the TSBD that causes him to pick out this woman for special attention?
Why does he then make up some tale about thinking shots were coming from the TSBD building and that's why he pulled over?
Don't mess around.
Nothing cryptic.
Just an explanation that covers these questions.
Why does Mr. Shelley--------with support from Mr. Lovelady---------pretend for the benefit of the WC that he didn't run off the steps and encounter Mrs. Calvery out by "the corner of the park"?
I have no idea why he would try to delete this seemingly innocuous detail. Something he is already on the record as saying. Something he knows he told the Dallas Police.
Maybe he just forgot about it.
Maybe he thought it was an unimportant detail.
Maybe he had more important things to lie about during his WC testimony.
Here's the $64,000 question - why do you think he didn't mention it?
-
Officer Baker is NOT racing across to that woman for some completely unknown reason. There is a perfectly good reason, which I've offered.
What reason?
What is it about the woman that causes Baker to pull his bike up and race over to her?
No, he pulled his bike up because he thought the shots had come from the building.
What does Baker see in the mass of confusion as he approaches the TSBD that causes him to pick out this woman for special attention?
Why, the fact that she is drawing loud and urgent attention to herself, and pointing to what's on the ground in front of her.
You don't dispute the indisputable fact that Darnell shows Officer Baker running NOT for the entrance steps but IN HER DIRECTION. And yet NONE of his statements mention this fact. No, he gives to understand that he got off his bike and ran straight for the front entrance. He didn't. And his statements are erasing this woman and his dash in her direction. Why? The obvious answer is: because something was going on here that must not, for the sake of the official story, be remembered.
-
No, he pulled his bike up because he thought the shots had come from the building.
Why, the fact that she is drawing loud and urgent attention to herself, and pointing to what's on the ground in front of her.
You don't dispute the indisputable fact that Darnell shows Officer Baker running NOT for the entrance steps but IN HER DIRECTION. And yet NONE of his statements mention this fact. No, he gives to understand that he got off his bike and ran straight for the front entrance. He didn't. And his statements are erasing this woman and his dash in her direction. Why? The obvious answer is: because something was going on here that must not, for the sake of the official story, be remembered.
Look closely at the Darnell clip and you will notice something that:
a) Refutes your notion that Baker's attention is drawn to the woman in question.
b) Explains why, even though Baker is heading for the front entrance, he appears to not be heading directly towards the steps.
Focus on Baker Thumb1:
Now, what about Shelley?
-
Why does Mr. Shelley--------with support from Mr. Lovelady---------pretend for the benefit of the WC that he didn't run off the steps and encounter Mrs. Calvery out by "the corner of the park"?
I have no idea why he would try to delete this seemingly innocuous detail.
Well, the operative word here is 'seemingly'.
There's nothing innocuous about the radical change from the story Mr. Shelley tells in his affidavit (meeting Ms. Calvery out by the corner of the park... returning inside the building) to the story he tells the WC (remaining on the steps until Ms. Calvery comes running up... only then going out with Mr. Lovelady to the 'island'... then walking west with Mr. Lovelady towards the railroad yards... and only THEN re-entering the building).
This isn't faulty memory, for pete's sake. Mr. Shelley is lying through his teeth, as is Mr. Lovelady.
Why? What are they hiding?
If it's the Adams-Styles thing, all Mr. Shelley need do is say 'I met Gloria out by the corner of the park, then went back to the front steps, then me and Billy went down to the railroad tracks for a few minutes.'
No. This is all about the front entrance. Something to do with Mr. Oswald, the man you're desperate to keep off the front steps.
Which brings us back to Officer Baker's dash to the woman holding up the paper bag.................
-
Look closely at the Darnell clip and you will notice something that:
a) Refutes your notion that Baker's attention is drawn to the woman in question.
b) Explains why, even though Baker is heading for the front entrance, he appears to not be heading directly towards the steps.
Focus on Baker Thumb1:
No, I'll focus on Mr. O'Meara, and wait patiently for his big reveal on this Thumb1:
-
Well, the operative word here is 'seemingly'.
There's nothing innocuous about the radical change from the story Mr. Shelley tells in his affidavit (meeting Ms. Calvery out by the corner of the park... returning inside the building) to the story he tells the WC (remaining on the steps until Ms. Calvery comes running up... only then going out with Mr. Lovelady to the 'island'... then walking west with Mr. Lovelady towards the railroad yards... and only THEN re-entering the building).
This isn't faulty memory, for pete's sake. Mr. Shelley is lying through his teeth, as is Mr. Lovelady.
Why? What are they hiding?
If it's the Adams-Styles thing, all Mr. Shelley need do is say 'I met Gloria out by the corner of the park, then went back to the front steps, then me and Billy went down to the railroad tracks for a few minutes.'
No. This is all about the front entrance. Something to do with Mr. Oswald, the man you're desperate to keep off the front steps.
Which brings us back to Officer Baker's dash to the woman holding up the paper bag.................
No. This is all about the front entrance. Something to do with Mr. Oswald, the man you're desperate to keep off the front steps.
When I was trying to convince you Oswald wasn't Prayer Man you kept throwing that phrase up all the time, that I was desperate to keep Oswald off the front steps.
Turns out I was right and you were wrong but let's not dwell on that.
Let's not forget, Shelley is already on the record as stating he met Gloria across the street so you're idea that he can somehow undo this during his WC testimony seems a little stretched.
That this detail reveals something important about Oswald being out front also seems like something that is going to require some fanciful speculation.
I do, however, agree that Shelley and Lovelady lie through their teeth during their respective WC testimonies.
And finding out what they are lying about starts with what was left out of their affidavits.
In their affidavits both men neglect to mention that they head down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Both men leave the unavoidable impression that they re-enter the TSBD building through the front door.
In their WC testimonies both men now acknowledge they enter through the west door but lie about how long it takes them to get there.
In the 1970's, Lovelady reveals he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for "15 to 20 minutes" after the shooting.
As far as I'm concerned the lies have something to do with them entering the building through the west door.
-
Here is a Betzner photograph which shows the face of the lady who is supposed to be Gloria Calvery standing next to a smaller man named John Templin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxz3g5p7/Mannequin-row-comparison.jpg)
As you can see she is a taller brunette and not Gloria. It is actually this lady to Gloria's right in the picture below.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Ladies-TSBD-2_(1).jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
Here is some identification work done by Sandy Larsen on The Education Forum, Unfortunately he does not identify the tall lady.
(https://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2019_03/gloria_calvery_coworkers.jpg.c8ab7305fa9795afc64f79326f6d7a71.jpg)
Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Here is some identification work done by Sandy Larsen on The Education Forum, Unfortunately he does not identify the tall lady.
In my opinion, that’s Carolyn Arnold. She appears to be pregnant.
-
In my opinion, that’s Carolyn Arnold. She appears to be pregnant.
Thumb1:
-
Here is a Betzner photograph which shows the face of the lady who is supposed to be Gloria Calvery standing next to a smaller man named John Templin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxz3g5p7/Mannequin-row-comparison.jpg)
As you can see she is a taller brunette and not Gloria. It is actually this lady to Gloria's right in the picture below.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Ladies-TSBD-2_(1).jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
Here is some identification work done by Sandy Larsen on The Education Forum, Unfortunately he does not identify the tall lady.
(https://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2019_03/gloria_calvery_coworkers.jpg.c8ab7305fa9795afc64f79326f6d7a71.jpg)
Sincerely yours, Michael
Karen Westbrook Scranton donated a series of pictures to the Sixth Floor Museum showing herself and her colleagues in Room 203. The pics were taken around Christmas time, '63, a few weeks after the assassination. It is Karen who provides the names of her colleagues but she cannot remember the young woman you are pointing out.
The woman in question is a heavily pregnant Carolyn Arnold, seen here at her desk to the far left:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGwy8hLG/203pic.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJyqt02d)
Karen can't remember her name because at the time of the assassination Arnold did not work in Room 203.
Once again you have come wading in with some piss-poor attempt to undermine the identifications I have put forward and once again you have got it all wrong.
There must come a time when you start to give the identifications I'm putting forward some kind of credence.
I admire your tenacity and consistency but have a serious look at the identifications I'm proposing and the evidence I'm using to back them up.
It can't hurt.
-
No. This is all about the front entrance. Something to do with Mr. Oswald, the man you're desperate to keep off the front steps.
When I was trying to convince you Oswald wasn't Prayer Man
Actually you were trying to convince everyone that Prayer Man was Mrs. Sarah Stanton, which was and remains a ridiculous claim.
As soon as a better Darnell frame appeared, I immediately disavowed the LHO=PrayerMan claim. Have you disavowed your ridiculous Stanton claim? Or are you still the last signed-up co-member of the Doyle Club?
And yes, you are desperate to keep Mr. Oswald off the front steps, and have foamed at the mouth at any suggestion his suppressed claim in interrogation that he "went outside to watch P. Parade" is important
you kept throwing that phrase up all the time, that I was desperate to keep Oswald off the front steps.
Turns out I was right and you were wrong but let's not dwell on that.
Let's not forget, Shelley is already on the record as stating he met Gloria across the street so you're idea that he can somehow undo this during his WC testimony seems a little stretched.
That this detail reveals something important about Oswald being out front also seems like something that is going to require some fanciful speculation.
I do, however, agree that Shelley and Lovelady lie through their teeth during their respective WC testimonies.
But your downgrading of Mr. Shelley's transformed Calvery story from an obvious lie to a piece of innocuous muddled memory is a major error IMO
And finding out what they are lying about starts with what was left out of their affidavits.
In their affidavits both men neglect to mention that they head down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Both men leave the unavoidable impression that they re-enter the TSBD building through the front door.
In their WC testimonies both men now acknowledge they enter through the west door but lie about how long it takes them to get there.
In the 1970's, Lovelady reveals he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for "15 to 20 minutes" after the shooting.
As far as I'm concerned the lies have something to do with them entering the building through the west door.
I think you've got things precisely back-to-front, Mr. O'Meara. Mr. Lovelady IMO is covering for Mr. Shelley, who wishes to account for several missing minutes immediately post-shooting. That's why they've been fictitiously paired off. That's why an excursion west to the railroad track has been invented. Mr. Shelley went AWOL during this time, and Mr. Lovelady remained at the front entrance (long enough to see Mr. Oswald stepping outside after being stopped by Lt. Erich Kaminski).
Their affidavits don't give away what Mr. Shelley did in those missing minutes, nor however do they offer the fanciful Westward-Ho tale that was later contrived to cover Mr. Shelley's absence.
I believe that Mr. Shelley, upon hearing from Ms. Calvery that Pres. Kennedy had been shot, was shocked and panicked. This wasn't the false-flag missed-shots incident he and Mr. Truly had signed up for involvement in as TSBD-side facilitators.
-
Karen Westbrook Scranton donated a series of pictures to the Sixth Floor Museum showing herself and her colleagues in Room 203. The pics were taken around Christmas time, '63, a few weeks after the assassination. It is Karen who provides the names of her colleagues but she cannot remember the young woman you are pointing out.
The woman in question is a heavily pregnant Carolyn Arnold, seen here at her desk to the far left:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGwy8hLG/203pic.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJyqt02d)
Karen can't remember her name because at the time of the assassination Arnold did not work in Room 203.
Once again you have come wading in with some piss-poor attempt to undermine the identifications I have put forward and once again you have got it all wrong.
Hi John and Dan, You both do realize that the lady I am talking about is the front view of the lady you both call Gloria Calvery. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Dan, Then are you saying that the Gloria identification should be Carolyn Arnold. It certainly is not Gloria! She is taller; has brunette hair parted in the middle, and is not wearing glasses! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
There must come a time when you start to give the identifications I'm putting forward some kind of credence.
I admire your tenacity and consistency but have a serious look at the identifications I'm proposing and the evidence I'm using to back them up.
It can't hurt.
Hi John and Dan, You both do realize that the lady I am talking about is the front view of the lady you both call Gloria Calvery. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Dan, Then are you saying that the Gloria identification should be Carolyn Arnold. It certainly is not Gloria! She is taller; has brunette hair parted in the middle, and is not wearing glasses! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
Carolyn Arnold is supposed to be wearing a red dress on November 22, 1963, according to Linda Zambanini.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-1.jpg)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg)
Here it shows how pregnant the real Carolyn Arnold is in this Cooper/Cook film frame. Carolyn is in between Bonnie Richey and Virgie Rackley who has the arrow above her head.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/virgie-rackley-in-cook-film.jpg?w=684)
Here are Carolyn and Bonnie in color in Willis 8.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis08.jpg)
-
Hi John and Dan, You both do realize that the lady I am talking about is the front view of the lady you both call Gloria Calvery. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
I’m not claiming that the person in Betzner or the figure in black on the steps in Darnell have been proven to be Calvery, or even that they have been proven to be the same person. There’s no good evidence for any of that.
-
Hi John and Dan, You both do realize that the lady I am talking about is the front view of the lady you both call Gloria Calvery. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Hi Dan, Then are you saying that the Gloria identification should be Carolyn Arnold. It certainly is not Gloria! She is taller; has brunette hair parted in the middle, and is not wearing glasses! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
Carolyn Arnold is supposed to be wearing a red dress on November 22, 1963, according to Linda Zambanini.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-1.jpg)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg)
Here it shows how pregnant the real Carolyn Arnold is in this Cooper/Cook film frame. Carolyn is in between Bonnie Richey and Virgie Rackley who has the arrow above her head.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/virgie-rackley-in-cook-film.jpg?w=684)
Here are Carolyn and Bonnie in color in Willis 8.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis08.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
:D :D
It is YOU who identified this woman as Carolyn Arnold and have then posted a series of pictures showing Carolyn Arnold in a completely different position on Elm Street!!
Do you now concede that, once again, you were mistaken?
-
I’m not claiming that the person in Betzner or the figure in black on the steps in Darnell have been proven to be Calvery, or even that they have been proven to be the same person. There’s no good evidence for any of that.
Hi John, Okay, very good! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
:D :D
It is YOU who identified this woman as Carolyn Arnold and have then posted a series of pictures showing Carolyn Arnold in a completely different position on Elm Street!!
Do you now concede that, once again, you were mistaken?
Hi Dan, No, you and John assumed the tall black haired lady who is in Gloria Calvery's spot is Carolyn Arnold. I do not know who she is. I just posted where and who the real Carolyn Arnold is on November 22nd. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan, No, you and John assumed the tall black haired lady who is in Gloria Calvery's spot is Carolyn Arnold. I do not know who she is. I just posted where and who the real Carolyn Arnold is on November 22nd. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
Please quote where I have assumed this woman is Carolyn Arnold.
While you're at it review your Reply#225 where you state:
As you can see she is a taller brunette and not Gloria. It is actually this lady to Gloria's right in the picture below.
-
Here is some identification work done by Sandy Larsen on The Education Forum, Unfortunately he does not identify the tall lady.
"In my opinion, that’s Carolyn Arnold. She appears to be pregnant." Is what John wrote. To which you gave a thumbs up!
Thumb1:
Hi Dan, As you can see from your post above you agreed with John that it is Carolyn Arnold in Gloria Calvery's position on Elm Street. You and John identified Carolyn in the picture, but I showed you that the real Carolyn has blonde hair and stood in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination! Thank you for Everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan, As you can see from your post above you agreed with John that it is Carolyn Arnold in Gloria Calvery's position on Elm Street. You and John identified Carolyn in the picture, but I showed you that the real Carolyn has blonde hair and stood in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination! Thank you for Everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
As you can see from your post above you agreed with John that it is Carolyn Arnold in Gloria Calvery's position on Elm Street.
This is so wrong it's difficult to know where to start.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
It is you who identified the woman in the picture above as the tall woman on the far left of the picture below:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Ladies-TSBD-2_(1).jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
It is you who said that these were the same women but you didn't know the name of the woman on the far left of the picture.
John, correctly as far as I'm concerned, identified the woman on the far left as the heavily pregnant Carolyn Arnold.
Because I agreed it was Carolyn Arnold on the far left of this picture -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Ladies-TSBD-2_(1).jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
- it meant your identification of this woman -
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
- as Carolyn Arnold was completely wrong.
You confirmed your own identification of this woman as Carolyn Arnold was completely wrong by posting pictures of Carolyn Arnold elsewhere on Elm street at the time the presidential limo passed by.
At no time, anywhere, have either me or John or anyone other than you identified the woman below as Carolyn Arnold:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
You are wrong.
It is not Carolyn Arnold.
-
As you can see from your post above you agreed with John that it is Carolyn Arnold in Gloria Calvery's position on Elm Street.
This is so wrong it's difficult to know where to start.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Here is a picture of Gloria for comparison.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/149407954_1437170856.png?w=361)
It is you who identified the woman in the picture above as the tall woman on the far left of the picture below:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Ladies-TSBD-2_(1).jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
It is you who said that these were the same women but you didn't know the name of the woman on the far left of the picture.
John, correctly as far as I'm concerned, identified the woman on the far left as the heavily pregnant Carolyn Arnold.
Because I agreed it was Carolyn Arnold on the far left of this picture -
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Ladies-TSBD-2_(1).jpg?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
- it meant your identification of this woman -
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
- as Carolyn Arnold was completely wrong.
You confirmed your own identification of this woman as Carolyn Arnold was completely wrong by posting pictures of Carolyn Arnold elsewhere on Elm street at the time the presidential limo passed by.
At no time, anywhere, have either me or John or anyone other than you identified the woman below as Carolyn Arnold:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NTKFgD/Screenshot-408.png) (https://postimages.org/)
You are wrong.
It is not Carolyn Arnold.
Hi Dan, So you and John are still going with the erroneous identification of the tall lady to Gloria's right in the office picture of the ladies as Carolyn Arnold! In my opinion the lady in Gloria's place is the tall unknown lady to the right of Gloria in the office picture! I do not know who she is except that she is for sure not Carolyn Arnold! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Hi Dan, So you and John are still going with the erroneous identification of the tall lady to Gloria's right in the office picture of the ladies as Carolyn Arnold! In my opinion the lady in Gloria's place is the tall unknown lady to the right of Gloria in the office picture! I do not know who she is except that she is for sure not Carolyn Arnold! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
I do not know who she is except that she is for sure not Carolyn Arnold!
Hmmmm...yeah.
There's been a few things that you have been confident were right which turned out to be wrong.
This is another one of those things.
Thanks for your efforts though, it must be hard just making stuff up on the spot.
-
Ms. Zambanini has done some terrific work, but SOME of her confident identifications are v. questionable.................
-
Look closely at the Darnell clip and you will notice something that:
a) Refutes your notion that Baker's attention is drawn to the woman in question.
b) Explains why, even though Baker is heading for the front entrance, he appears to not be heading directly towards the steps.
Looks like Mr. O'Meara thought he had something here but didn't. Oh well
-
Hi Dan, No, you and John assumed the tall black haired lady who is in Gloria Calvery's spot is Carolyn Arnold. I do not know who she is. I just posted where and who the real Carolyn Arnold is on November 22nd. Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
I think you’re confused. We think the tall woman on the left in the Christmas photos is Carolyn Arnold.
I don’t think we actually know what “Gloria Calvary’s spot” during the motorcade is.
I thought that you were claiming the tall figure visible in Betzner is Carolyn Arnold.
-
but I showed you that the real Carolyn has blonde hair and stood in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination!
No you didn’t, and no she doesn’t. What in the world gave you the idea that Carolyn Arnold had blonde hair?
-
I think you’re confused. We think the tall woman on the left in the Christmas photos is Carolyn Arnold.
I don’t think we actually know what “Gloria Calvary’s spot” during the motorcade is.
I thought that you were claiming the tall figure visible in Betzner is Carolyn Arnold.
Hi John, The tall lady is only Carolyn Arnold if you and Dan are correct! I agree with you that we actually do not know where Gloria Calvery's spot is during the motorcade! I should say presumed spot from now on! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
No you didn’t, and no she doesn’t.
Hi John, We will have to agree to disagree on this one! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
'Pregnant woman photographed on 2nd floor of TSBD Xmas 63 amongst 2nd floor TSBD employees = Ms. Carolyn Arnold'------------->fair inference
'Pregnant woman [who doesn't look particularly like pregnant woman photographed on 2nd floor of TSBD Xmas 63 amongst 2nd floor TSBD employees] photographed in front of building 11/22/63 amongst a bunch of unidentified folks = Ms. Carolyn Arnold'------------->wild leap
-
Hi Alan, Yet Carolyn is right where she said she would be, in front of the TSBD!
Please notice that Carolyn did not associate herself with the Southwestern girls like Calvery, Reed and Hicks----she hung out with a different group!
My name is Carolyn Arnold and I am married to R. E. Arnold. I reside at 3325 South Tyler Street, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years of age, born June 1, 1943, at Memphis, Tenn. I am a while female, and am employed by the Texas School Book Depository as a Secretary.
On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr. O. V. Campbell, 7120 Twin Tree Lane, Dallas; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt. 117, Dallas; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo, 2705 West Brooklyn, Dallas; Mrs. Don (Virgie) Baker née Rackley, 3600½ Live Oak, Dallas; and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside, Dallas, at the time President Kennedy was shot.
I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President Kennedy was shot.
On the morning of November 22, 1963, I do not remember seeing any stranger in the building housing the Texas School Book Depository.
I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12:25 PM, November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date.
I have read the above statement consisting of one and one–half pages and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge.
Mrs. R. E. (CAROLYN) ARNOLD
Witnesses:
E. J. ROBERTSON, Special Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64
THOMAS T. TRETTIS, Jr., Specail Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64
Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Well, the operative word here is 'seemingly'.
There's nothing innocuous about the radical change from the story Mr. Shelley tells in his affidavit (meeting Ms. Calvery out by the corner of the park... returning inside the building) to the story he tells the WC (remaining on the steps until Ms. Calvery comes running up... only then going out with Mr. Lovelady to the 'island'... then walking west with Mr. Lovelady towards the railroad yards... and only THEN re-entering the building).
This isn't faulty memory, for pete's sake. Mr. Shelley is lying through his teeth, as is Mr. Lovelady.
Why? What are they hiding?
If it's the Adams-Styles thing, all Mr. Shelley need do is say 'I met Gloria out by the corner of the park, then went back to the front steps, then me and Billy went down to the railroad tracks for a few minutes.'
And the notion that the Adams-Styles thing is what's behind the Shelley-Lovelady lies is further undermined by the fact that NEITHER man plays his designated part during their WC testimony in 'remembering' 'the' Adams-Styles encounter on the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
So Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady go to all this trouble constructing a lie about their immediate post-assassination movements, and all for this? Hogwash.
And besides, as already pointed out, there would have been no need----------if the objective was to discredit the Adams timeline---------to tell a false story about how and when they left the front steps. All they had to do was say they stayed over by the railroad yard for several minutes. Job done.
No. The whole story about how Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady paired off together is itself the big lie. Mr. Lovelady remained on the steps. And Mr. Shelley went AWOL for some time.
-
Hi Alan, Yet that is where Carolyn Arnold said she was during the assassination!
Statement to FBI, 18 March 1964
DL 100–10461
I, Mrs. R. E. (Carolyn) Arnold, hereby freely and voluntarily make the following statement to E. J. Robertson who has identified himself as a Special Agent of the F.B.I.
My name is Carolyn Arnold and I am married to R. E. Arnold. I reside at 3325 South Tyler Street, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years of age, born June 1, 1943, at Memphis, Tenn. I am a while female, and am employed by the Texas School Book Depository as a Secretary.
On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Lots of people were standing in front of the building at the time of the motorcade. I'm talking about the identification of Ms. Arnold in some footage taken well after the assassination
-
Lots of people were standing in front of the building at the time of the motorcade. I'm talking about the identification of Ms. Arnold in some footage taken well after the assassination
Hi Alan, She is filmed in Darnell and other early films!
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg) She is in the upper left Wiegman frame!
In this Darnell frame Carolyn is running in the center foreground!
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Darnell_Large_gif_snapshot_001.jpg)
Thank you again! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
I agree with you on the Ms. Calvery & Mr. Lovelady identifications, but not even Mr. Shelley's suit made him look this broad:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7fPBW76/Man-in-Darnell.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/504k6JWy/bill-shelley-2-cropped.jpg)
The man in Darnell is too large IMO
If Mr. Shelley is wearing his suit jacket, then we'd expect his physique to look more like that of this guy walking west from the "corner of the park" with a cigarette in his mouth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfksgVSt/Darnell-man-with-cigarette.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/ryN2MSVt/Darnell-man-with-cigarette.gif)
-
Hi Alan, She is filmed in Darnell and other early films!
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg) She is in the upper left Wiegman frame!
A questionable identification founded upon several questionable identifications. No cigar, sorry
-
If Mr. Shelley is wearing his suit jacket, then we'd expect his physique to look more like that of this guy walking west from the "corner of the park" with a cigarette in his mouth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfksgVSt/Darnell-man-with-cigarette.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/ryN2MSVt/Darnell-man-with-cigarette.gif)
Just running with this for the heck of it..................
If this WERE Mr. Shelley, with a cigarette in his mouth, then might he not be Prayer Man in Wiegman (NOT in Darnell), lighting his cigarette and then (in the last few frames) having lowered his right arm to flick the match out?
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif)
Look closely at those latter frames.
Might this flame be the glow?
-
Hi Alan, Yet Carolyn is right where she said she would be, in front of the TSBD!
Please notice that Carolyn did not associate herself with the Southwestern girls like Calvery, Reed and Hicks----she hung out with a different group!
My name is Carolyn Arnold and I am married to R. E. Arnold. I reside at 3325 South Tyler Street, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years of age, born June 1, 1943, at Memphis, Tenn. I am a while female, and am employed by the Texas School Book Depository as a Secretary.
On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr. O. V. Campbell, 7120 Twin Tree Lane, Dallas; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt. 117, Dallas; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo, 2705 West Brooklyn, Dallas; Mrs. Don (Virgie) Baker née Rackley, 3600½ Live Oak, Dallas; and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside, Dallas, at the time President Kennedy was shot.
I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President Kennedy was shot.
On the morning of November 22, 1963, I do not remember seeing any stranger in the building housing the Texas School Book Depository.
I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12:25 PM, November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date.
I have read the above statement consisting of one and one–half pages and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge.
Mrs. R. E. (CAROLYN) ARNOLD
Witnesses:
E. J. ROBERTSON, Special Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64
THOMAS T. TRETTIS, Jr., Specail Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64
Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr. O. V. Campbell, 7120 Twin Tree Lane, Dallas; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt. 117, Dallas; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo, 2705 West Brooklyn, Dallas; Mrs. Don (Virgie) Baker née Rackley, 3600½ Live Oak, Dallas; and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside, Dallas, at the time President Kennedy was shot.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg)
-
Hi Alan, Yet Carolyn is right where she said she would be, in front of the TSBD!
Please notice that Carolyn did not associate herself with the Southwestern girls like Calvery, Reed and Hicks----she hung out with a different group!
My name is Carolyn Arnold and I am married to R. E. Arnold. I reside at 3325 South Tyler Street, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years of age, born June 1, 1943, at Memphis, Tenn. I am a while female, and am employed by the Texas School Book Depository as a Secretary.
On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr. O. V. Campbell, 7120 Twin Tree Lane, Dallas; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt. 117, Dallas; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo, 2705 West Brooklyn, Dallas; Mrs. Don (Virgie) Baker née Rackley, 3600½ Live Oak, Dallas; and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside, Dallas, at the time President Kennedy was shot.
Show us Mr. Campbell (the one name you have chosen not to put in bold)
-
Just running with this for the heck of it..................
If this WERE Mr. Shelley, with a cigarette in his mouth, then might he not be Prayer Man in Wiegman (NOT in Darnell), lighting his cigarette and then (in the last few frames) having lowered his right arm to flick the match out?
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif)
Look closely at those latter frames.
Look closely also at the very first frames. The 'glow' proper doesn't become evident immediately:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLByPkb3/Wiegman-slow-faster.gif) (https://i.postimg.cc/GtSqctRX/Wiegman-slow.gif)
Is this because the match hasn't flared up yet?
-
Show us Mr. Campbell (the one name you have chosen not to put in bold)
Hi Alan, Here you go! Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael credit: Linda Zambanini
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-4.jpg)
-
Hi Alan, Here you go! Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-4.jpg)
Pure guesswork, and looks nothing like Mr. Campbell
-
Pure guesswork, and looks nothing like Mr. Campbell
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/campbell-ov-from-casey.jpg?w=225)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-4.jpg)
-
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/campbell-ov-from-casey.jpg?w=225)
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-4.jpg)
Like I say, looks nothing like Mr. Campbell. Arbitrary amateur guesswork built upon arbitrary amateur guesswork
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tw3sGZmY/Campbell-alyea.jpg)
-
Hi Alan, If you do not like Mr. Campbell's and Mr. Truly's identifications, then how about Virgie Rackley's identification. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/PBS.JFK_.Breaking.the_.News_.720p.HDTV_.x264.AAC_.MVGroup.org_.mp4_20151001_112742.692.jpg?w=949)
Here in the next two pictures Virgie and Carolyn are together or close by each other.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Virgie-Rackley-in-front-of-the-TSBD.jpg?resize=961%2C1024)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Virgie-Rachley-after.jpg?resize=1024%2C888)
2. Mrs. Donald Sam Baker (Virgie Rackley) Clerk
"At approximately 12:15 pm on November 22, 1963, I left the second floor of the Texas School Book
Depository and went out the south door of the building to watch the Presidential Motorcade which
I knew was due to pass at about 12:30 pm. I was accompanied by Betty Dragoo, Carolyn Arnold,
Judy Johnson, and Bonnie Richey all of whom are likewise employed by the Texas School Book
Depository. I and the above mentioned girls then stationed ourselves on the edge of the
pedestrian parade line at a point thirty feet directly in front of the main entrance to the Depsoitry
Building."
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg)
-
It doesn’t help that in 63 there wasn’t much difference in types of glasses and hats and suits lol. it’s like everybody seems to be dressed like they are ALL FBI agents heh.
I confuse Campbell and Truly easily and “fedora “hat man , who the heck knows who guy is?
And haircuts, like hey, is everybody going to the same barber , cause I’ve already mistakenly identified about a dozen men who look like Oswald .
Danny Arce and Bill Shelley and that dude with the light tan brown jacket and the noticeable weird bald spot in the TOP of his head ( hmm) maybe are the few men who have a high hair profile.
-
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-4.jpg)
~Sigh~
Your 'Truly' is a woman, and your 'Campbell' is a man with two kids:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0Z9zr61/Wiegman-cropped.gif)
Please stop wasting everyone's time with this zero-quality-control nonsense, Mr. Welch
-
~Sigh~
Your 'Truly' is a woman, and your 'Campbell' is a man with two kids:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0Z9zr61/Wiegman-cropped.gif)
Please stop wasting everyone's time with this zero-quality-control nonsense, Mr. Welch
Hi Alan, Can you comment on the girls then and ignore Truly and Campbell? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/arnold-carolyn-5.jpg)
-
Hi Alan, Here is a great Wiegman frame showing Roy Truly at the far right wearing his black hat from Duncan's and Robin's fantastic photo gallery! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/WeigmanLarge.jpg)
-
If Mr. Shelley is wearing his suit jacket, then we'd expect his physique to look more like that of this guy walking west from the "corner of the park" with a cigarette in his mouth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfksgVSt/Darnell-man-with-cigarette.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/ryN2MSVt/Darnell-man-with-cigarette.gif)
SO.................... could this actually be Mr. Shelley?
-
Okay, I think I have the four South-Western Publishing girls to the left of John Templin on November 22, 1963, on Elm Street figured out. In Gloria Calvery's former spot we have Karan Hicks. She is the tall lady furthest to the left in the office girls picture. She was unidentified by Karen Westbrook and correctly identified by Pat Speer. She is definitely not Carolyn Arnold. To the left of Karan Hicks we have Carol Reed. To the left of Carol Reed we have Karen Westbrook. To the left of Karen Westbrook we have Gloria Calvery. Sincerely yours, Michael
Ignore the red arrow.
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Gloria-Jean-Holt-in-Zapruder.jpg)
Ignore the identifications, just find John Templin and look to his left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxz3g5p7/Mannequin-row-comparison.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/6DfGHQ6vbP-oRTOKAQfszeJrWQZhvmMRPlkB_GcUsruX2bq2qkycg4mQaBMclZ82FGcx8Q=w1280)
-
Okay, I think I have the four South-Western Publishing girls to the left of John Templin on November 22, 1963, on Elm Street figured out.
Based on what?
-
Based on what?
Hi John, Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook are all saying they were a four girl unit out on Elm Street.
In this picture, you can see the girl in Gloria Calvery's former position [standing next to John Templin] has brunette hair parted down the middle; her hair is longer than Gloria's and she is taller and not wearing glasses. The girl to her left cannot be seen. Then the third girl has brunette hair with no bangs just like Karen Westbrook. The girl to her left cannot be seen from the front. If you go with Pat Speer's identification of the taller girl in the far left of the office girls' picture you have Karan Hicks; then you have Carol Reed based on her being the smallest of the four; then you have Karen Westbrook based on her hairstyle; and lastly you have Gloria Calvery based on her having the thickest calves and by process of elimination. Thank you for your welcomed input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/6DfGHQ6vbP-oRTOKAQfszeJrWQZhvmMRPlkB_GcUsruX2bq2qkycg4mQaBMclZ82FGcx8Q=w1280)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxz3g5p7/Mannequin-row-comparison.jpg)
Here is a picture of Karen Westbrook for comparison to lady number 3.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Karen-Westbrook.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
-
Looks like Mr. O'Meara thought he had something here but didn't. Oh well
Don't worry Alan, I hadn't forgotten you. On the road at the moment so I post when I can.
Baker pulls up his bike because he thinks there's shots coming from the TSBD building.
He apparently wants to get in the building and go up to the top floor (something Truly psychically detects).
If this is indeed his intention the Darnell clip seems to show Baker 'overshooting' his approach to the front steps.
The reason for this is obvious if you'd actually bothered to focus on Baker in the Darnell clip [maybe you've seen it already but are being 'shy'].
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
Still not seeing it?
Baker is looking up the Elm Street extension as he runs towards the steps.
He's not looking where he's running.
That's why he overshoots his approach to the steps and that's how we know his attention isn't on the woman who you believe is trying to point out a banner made out of a parachute and two curtain rods saying "Viva Cuba!" and which could be seen from space.
It comes incorporated with a cloaking device because, not only does nobody on the steps see such a thing, it's not picked up in the Towner film!
-
Hi Dan, I have not made anything up! Carolyn Arnold has blonde hair...She was wearing a red dress.
:D :D :D
You are priceless.
Beyond irony.
Hi Dan, Also the real Carolyn Arnold had her baby in December. Your Carolyn Arnold is still pregnant.
In Willis 5, in between the two Secret Service agents, we have the real Gloria Calvery dressed in blue with a white shirt! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis05.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Ladies-TSBD-1.jpg)
Ignore the arrow and please notice that girl in position number four from John Templin's left is wearing blue!
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Gloria-Jean-Holt-in-Zapruder.jpg)
-
Baker is looking up the Elm Street extension as he runs towards the steps.
Nope! He takes a quick look down the extension, and then resumes looking ahead-----without changing his path
He's not looking where he's running.
That's why he overshoots his approach to the steps
That's it, Mr. O'Meara? That's really all you've got? 'Baker was such a moron he didn't pay attention to where the front entrance was'
:D
-
Nope! He takes a quick look down the extension, and then resumes looking ahead-----without changing his path
That's it, Mr. O'Meara? That's really all you've got? 'Baker was such a moron he didn't pay attention to where the front entrance was'
:D
The Darnell clip shows he was looking up the Elm Street extension while he was running towards the steps.
What else do I need?
He describes what he saw happening down in the direction of the Grassy Knoll, he was focused on that while he was trying to make it to the steps.
It's as simple as that.
Have a think about the tale you have woven in place of this simple explanation.
Baker is looking up the Elm Street extension as he runs towards the steps in the Darnell clip.
You cannot get away from that.
In his WC testimony he stresses he is focused on the area by the Grassy Knoll at the time in question.
You can't get away from that.
Compare the simplicity of this to what you have to offer.
-
Hi Dan, Also the real Carolyn Arnold had her baby in December. Your Carolyn Arnold is still pregnant.
In Willis 5, in between the two Secret Service agents, we have the real Gloria Calvery dressed in blue with a white shirt! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis05.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Ladies-TSBD-1.jpg)
Ignore the arrow and please notice that girl in position number four from John Templin's left is wearing blue!
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Gloria-Jean-Holt-in-Zapruder.jpg)
Also the real Carolyn Arnold had her baby in December.
Where are you getting this info from?
-
The Darnell clip shows he was looking up the Elm Street extension while he was running towards the steps.
What else do I need?
To look at the Darnell film. He takes a quick look down the extension, and then resumes looking ahead-----without changing his path
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
And let me throw out a wild thought here: don't ya think he might have noted where, yannow, the front steps were when he, yannow, started his run?
You're making a Welch-level fool of yourself here, Mr. O'Meara
-
To look at the Darnell film. He takes a quick look down the extension, and then resumes looking ahead-----without changing his path
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
And let me throw out a wild thought here: don't ya think he might have noted where, yannow, the front steps were when he, yannow, started his run?
You're making a Welch-level fool of yourself here, Mr. O'Meara
;D
And your invisible-vivacuba-parachute-curtainrod-banner theory is credible?? :D :D :D
I would have thought you'd learned your lesson after waking up from your Prayer Man delusion. But no.
Of course he knows where the steps are. That's where he's running to. He thought the shots came from the TSBD building, pulled up his bike and started heading for the steps. At the same time his attention was drawn to the chaos unfolding down by the Grassy Knoll. He's not looking where's hes' running as he crosses the streets and doesn't look round until he's almost on top of Truly.
That's why he overshoots the front steps by a single stride - something you have whisked up into the usual Fantasia Ford lunacy.
One thing is most definite - at no time does he look toward the woman screaming she's found the biggest banner ever made in Texas Thumb1:
-
He's not looking where's hes' running as he crosses the streets and doesn't look round until he's almost on top of Truly.
::)
Nope, you're still hallucinating. He takes a quick look down the extension, and then (well before reaching Mr. Truly) resumes looking ahead-----without changing his path
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
What's your next hallucination going to be, Mr. O'Meara? How about--------------'He obviously mistook the mailboxes for a door: easy mistake to make, given the rectangular shape'
-
When it was first noticed that Officer Baker was not running for the steps, some folks wondered might he be headed for the Dal-Tex building. This gave rise to some Braden-related speculation.
But no. Mr. Larsen's splendid GIF makes his true line of travel perfectly clear: Officer Baker is running straight for the woman holding up the long paper bag------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv8V1qZ5/Darnell-bag.jpg)
It wasn't found at the SN at all.
-
::)
Nope, you're still hallucinating. He takes a quick look down the extension, and then (well before reaching Mr. Truly) resumes looking ahead-----without changing his path
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
What's your next hallucination going to be, Mr. O'Meara? How about--------------'He obviously mistook the mailboxes for a door: easy mistake to make, given the rectangular shape'
You're in denial and that's fair enough.
At least you acknowledge that at no point does he look toward the woman who's made the discovery of the century.
-
You're in denial and that's fair enough.
At least you acknowledge that at no point does he look toward the woman who's made the discovery of the century.
LOL. Other than the quick look down the extension, he's looking toward her the whole time-----------and running in a straight line in her direction.
You thought you had something but you didn't. Marks for effort, and better luck next time! Thumb1:
-
Also the real Carolyn Arnold had her baby in December.
Where are you getting this info from?
Hi Dan, From Linda Zambanini. Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-3.jpg)
-
Hi Dan, From Linda Zambanini. Thank you kind sir! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/richer-bonnie-3.jpg)
Cite the article/quotation from Linda to this effect please
-
LOL. Other than the quick look down the extension, he's looking toward her the whole time-----------and running in a straight line in her direction.
You're dreaming.
You thought you had something but you didn't. Marks for effort, and better luck next time! Thumb1:
Baker is looking up the Elm Street extension as he crosses over to the front steps. His attention is drawn to the chaos unfolding down by the Grassy Knoll.
It is shown in the Darnell clip and it is confirmed by his WC testimony.
What confirmation do you have for your theory that he is running towards the woman who you believe is inexplicably carrying the paper "rifle" bag (without leaving her prints on it)?
Other than your own imagination, that is.
-
Baker is looking up the Elm Street extension as he crosses over to the front steps. His attention is drawn to the chaos unfolding down by the Grassy Knoll.
It is shown in the Darnell clip
:D
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
You can re-report the details of your bizarre hallucination as often as you want, Mr. O'Meara, it won't change what Darnell shows:
Officer Baker takes a quick look down the extension, and then (well before reaching Mr. Truly) resumes looking ahead. His path before, during and after his glance west is consistent: a straight line to the woman holding up the long paper bag.
I suggest you take a nap and come back to this with reality-oriented eyes. You're just making a prize fool of yourself here
-
:D
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1D7Y3T0/Baker-run-Larsen.gif)
You can re-report the details of your bizarre hallucination as often as you want, Mr. O'Meara, it won't change what Darnell shows:
Officer Baker takes a quick look down the extension, and then (well before reaching Mr. Truly) resumes looking ahead. His path before, during and after his glance west is consistent: a straight line to the woman holding up the long paper bag.
I suggest you take a nap and come back to this with reality-oriented eyes. You're just making a prize fool of yourself here
What confirmation do you have for your theory that he is running towards the woman who you believe is inexplicably carrying the paper "rifle" bag (without leaving her prints on it)?
Other than your own imagination, that is.
-
Cite the article/quotation from Linda to this effect please
Hi Dan, Linda did not give anything; however, I just found out on the Ancestry website that Carolyn had a baby girl on December 24, 1963. They named her Genelyn Arnold. She later married a man named Thurman. So Linda was correct. She usually is! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019Preview
City & area directories
Record information.
Name
Genie A Thurman
[Genelyn A Thurman]
[Genie A Miller]
[Genie G Thurman]
Birth
Dec 1963
Residence
2006-2020 Stephenville, Texas, USA
Genelyn A Thurman
in the U.S., Public Records Index, 1950-1993, Volume 2
U.S., Public Records Index, 1950-1993, Volume 2
Add or update information
Report a problem
Detail Source
Name Genelyn A Thurman
Birth Date 24 Dec 1963
Address Hc 51
Residence Place Stephenville, Texas, USA
Zip Code 76401
Genelyn Arnold Thurman
in the Texas, U.S., Select County Marriage Records, 1837-1965
Texas, U.S., Select County Marriage Records, 1837-1965
Add or update information
Report a problem
Detail Source
Name Genelyn Arnold Thurman
Gender Female
Marriage Date 3 Jan 2005
Marriage Place Erath, Texas, USA
Recording Date 7 Jan 2005
Recording Place Erath, Texas, USA
Spouse
Conley Ross Thurman
-
What confirmation do you have for your theory that he is running towards the woman
"Theory", lol. It's just what the Darnell film shows. You lost that argument. Get over it
who you believe is inexplicably carrying the paper "rifle" bag (without leaving her prints on it)?
~Grin~
It's possible he's dashing to post a letter----------how about you grasp that straw, Mr. O'Meara?
And there's nothing 'inexplicable' about her holding up the paper bag: I've already explained it. As usual, you've gone into froth-at-the-mouth mode without having properly read my posts
-
"Theory", lol. It's just what the Darnell film shows. You lost that argument. Get over it
~Grin~
It's possible he's dashing to post a letter----------how about you grasp that straw, Mr. O'Meara?
And there's nothing 'inexplicable' about her holding up the paper bag: I've already explained it. As usual, you've gone into froth-at-the-mouth mode without having properly read my posts
Yeah, you have explained it.
As JFK was passing by Oswald was out front waving a flag and then he took a gigantic banner out of a homemade paper bag and laid it out on the pavement in front of everyone on the TSBD steps.
And no-one saw him do it.
As Baker was dashing into the TSBD building to find out where the shots were coming from he was distracted by a woman with a paper bag who told him about Oswald laying out his gigantic banner on the floor.
But Baker just ignored her and the banner.
And never thought to mention it to anyone.
You are clearly still struggling to come to terms with what a fool you made of yourself with the Prayer Man nonsense.
Doubling down on an even more ridiculous theory is not the way forward.
WHY DID NO-ONE SEE OSWALD DOING ALL THESE CRAZY THINGS?
-
Yeah, you have explained it.
As JFK was passing by Oswald was out front waving a flag and then he took a gigantic banner out of a homemade paper bag and laid it out on the pavement in front of everyone on the TSBD steps.
And no-one saw him do it.
As Baker was dashing into the TSBD building to find out where the shots were coming from he was distracted by a woman with a paper bag who told him about Oswald laying out his gigantic banner on the floor.
But Baker just ignored her and the banner.
And never thought to mention it to anyone.
You are clearly still struggling to come to terms with what a fool you made of yourself with the Prayer Man nonsense.
Doubling down on an even more ridiculous theory is not the way forward.
WHY DID NO-ONE SEE OSWALD DOING ALL THESE CRAZY THINGS?
~Yawn~
I never claimed no one saw him do these things.
Let us know when you have a counter-analysis of what's seen in the Hughes, Towner, Bell, Wiegman & Darnell films.
All you've done thus far is make a fool of yourself with respect to the last-named film...........
BAKER (stepping on to the sidewalk): Oh my, these are mailboxes. What happened to the front steps? (Looking around) Why, there they are! I've found them! Hooray! (Turns and runs to front steps)
:D :D :D
-
~Yawn~
I never claimed no one saw him do these things.
Let us know when you have a counter-analysis of what's seen in the Hughes, Towner, Bell, Wiegman & Darnell films.
All you've done thus far is make a fool of yourself with respect to the last-named film...........
BAKER (stepping on to the sidewalk): Oh my, these are mailboxes. What happened to the front steps? (Looking around) Why, there they are! I've found them! Hooray! (Turns and runs to front steps)
:D :D :D
I never claimed no one saw him do these things.
:D :D :D
Not even you're crazy enough to make such a claim.
The question you're being asked is why did no-one see it.
How is that possible?
Have you not thought of this?
Has it not struck you as odd that not one single witness supports what you're proposing?
Has this not informed your opinion in any way?
And as for your analysis of various pixels in the films you mention...it's the laughing stock of this forum!
-
I never claimed no one saw him do these things.
:D :D :D
Not even you're crazy enough to make such a claim.
Huh? I've just said I didn't make this claim. READ before responding, Mr. O'Meara! Thumb1:
The question you're being asked is why did no-one see it.
How is that possible?
Have you not thought of this?
Has it not struck you as odd that not one single witness supports what you're proposing?
Has this not informed your opinion in any way?
And as for your analysis of various pixels in the films you mention...it's the laughing stock of this forum!
No, I've broken the case wide open, and it's freaking you out. You're behaving like a jealous little troll
-
Huh? I've just said I didn't make this claim. READ before responding, Mr. O'Meara! Thumb1:
Huh??
I know you what you said and agreed that not even you were crazy enough to make such a claim.
READ before responding Alan Thumb1:
No, I've broken the case wide open, and it's freaking you out. You're behaving like a jealous little troll
I've broken the case wide open
:D :D :D :D :D :D
-
I've broken the case wide open
:D :D :D :D :D :D
I've established where Mr. Oswald was at the time of the assassination; what he was doing there; and how that fit in to the broader assassination conspiracy.
The only thing you've established is your fanatical desire to keep Mr. Oswald off the front steps. Oh, and your wacky theory that Mr. Jack Dougherty shot Pres. Kennedy :D
-
Hi Dan, Linda did not give anything; however, I just found out on the Ancestry website that Carolyn had a baby girl on December 24, 1963. They named her Genelyn Arnold.
Confirmed in the Texas Birth Index.
Name Genelyn Nmn Arnold
Gender Female
Birth Date 24 Dec 1963
Birth Place Dallas, Texas, USA
Father Roy Eugene Arnold
Mother Carolyn Jane Nearn
-
Confirmed in the Texas Birth Index.
Name Genelyn Nmn Arnold
Gender Female
Birth Date 24 Dec 1963
Birth Place Dallas, Texas, USA
Father Roy Eugene Arnold
Mother Carolyn Jane Nearn
Hi John, Thank you for your valuable research, my friend! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
Mrs. Carolyn Arnold was thirsty around lunch time, being pregnant and all, and went to the second floor lunchroom around !2:15pm on November 22, 1963. There she saw Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in the booth seats having his lunch. She was sure it was Lee because she had given Lee change for the soda machine many times. Mrs. Arnold said she left the lunchroom around 12:25pm. In 1978, Mrs. Arnold was interviewed by Mr. Earl Golz. She was surprised that the FBI had not written what she had told them back in 1964 about her encounter with Lee in the lunchroom. They had instead said she had a fleeting glimpse of Lee in the hallway! Mrs. Arnold's testimony sets up Lee perfectly as Prayer Man. It answers the problem of why no TSBD employee says he was on the steps. It is because he was not on the steps until after the shooting! According to Harry Holmes Lee said that he only went outside to see what the commotion was. Thus, Lee was only on the steps as Prayer Man for around four or five minutes. Sincerely yours, Michael
-
I just found the four girls standing on Elm Street just after the shooting in a Martin frame. The Camera Cars are zooming past them in The Uncut Jack Martin Film which Duncan The Great posted over a year ago! So none of the four girls are on the steps in Darnell. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_060.jpg)
Starting at 13:55, you can see the tall Karan Hicks lady's colorful skirt flash in the sun; then it looks like Carol Reed; then Karen Westbrook in white; then Gloria Calvery in blue.
Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook are all saying they were a four girl unit out on Elm Street.
In this picture, you can see the girl in Gloria Calvery's former position [standing next to John Templin] has brunette hair parted down the middle; her hair is longer than Gloria's and she is taller and not wearing glasses. The girl to her left cannot be seen. Then the third girl has brunette hair with no bangs just like Karen Westbrook. The girl to her left cannot be seen from the front. If you go with Pat Speer's identification of the taller girl in the far left of the office girls' picture you have Karan Hicks; then you have Carol Reed based on her being the smallest of the four; then you have Karen Westbrook based on her hairstyle; and lastly you have Gloria Calvery based on her having the thickest calves and by process of elimination. Thank you for your welcomed input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/6DfGHQ6vbP-oRTOKAQfszeJrWQZhvmMRPlkB_GcUsruX2bq2qkycg4mQaBMclZ82FGcx8Q=w1280)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxz3g5p7/Mannequin-row-comparison.jpg)
Here is a picture of Karen Westbrook for comparison to lady number 3.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/brenda_welchq/Karen-Westbrook.webp?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds)
-
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/women3.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Match.jpg)
-
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/women3.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Match.jpg)
Hi Duncan, Are you saying that Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons are headed for the steps? I am not quite sure. Thank you as always for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
-
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/women3.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Match.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ssjry5z2/Cabluck-Unger.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This is a crop from the same pic:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwL2mZNv/Cabluck-Crop.png) (https://postimages.org/)
-
Here is another picture of the four girls in a Couch frame gathered around a street lamp pole on Elm Street. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-213500.JPG)
-
If Bakers part of of his story concerning why he headed towards the TSBD is true , then he probably was headed for the front entrance door of TSBD as he got off his motorcycle.
ON THE WAY to those front steps, perhaps was when Bakers path changes slightly as he notices the woman holding the bag.
That slight deviation might not be able to be to so clearly discerned from just the 2 blue computer model lines that Mr. Hackers 3d model that suggest an absolute straight line trek.
So it’s possible Baker did stop for some few seconds of time to see what the bag woman was holding was.
That time delay could have allowed Mr Truly to have joined up with Baker or even for Truly to have ascended the west side steps and enter the TSBD foyer ahead of Baker, who probably came up the east side of the steps (from leaving the woman w/ bag).
Thus may explain why Molina only saw Truly while Sanders only saw Baker.
-
If Bakers part of of his story concerning why he headed towards the TSBD is true , then he probably was headed for the front entrance door of TSBD as he got off his motorcycle.
ON THE WAY to those front steps, perhaps was when Bakers path changes slightly as he notices the woman holding the bag.
That slight deviation might not be able to be to so clearly discerned from just the 2 blue computer model lines that Mr. Hackers 3d model that suggest an absolute straight line trek.
So it’s possible Baker did stop for some few seconds of time to see what the bag woman was holding was.
It's way more than a mere possibility. The evidence in Darnell is clear as day. And the fact that Officer Baker said not a word about this woman or this detour in any of his statements speaks volumes. Quite simply, Darnell exposes his lie about an immediate dash to the front steps. He was told to shut up about what really happened before he entered the TSBD. And so was she.
That time delay could have allowed Mr Truly to have joined up with Baker or even for Truly to have ascended the west side steps and enter the TSBD foyer ahead of Baker, who probably came up the east side of the steps (from leaving the woman w/ bag).
Thus may explain why Molina only saw Truly while Sanders only saw Baker.
Yep
-
If Bakers part of of his story concerning why he headed towards the TSBD is true , then he probably was headed for the front entrance door of TSBD as he got off his motorcycle.
ON THE WAY to those front steps, perhaps was when Bakers path changes slightly as he notices the woman holding the bag.
That slight deviation might not be able to be to so clearly discerned from just the 2 blue computer model lines that Mr. Hackers 3d model that suggest an absolute straight line trek.
So it’s possible Baker did stop for some few seconds of time to see what the bag woman was holding was.
That time delay could have allowed Mr Truly to have joined up with Baker or even for Truly to have ascended the west side steps and enter the TSBD foyer ahead of Baker, who probably came up the east side of the steps (from leaving the woman w/ bag).
Thus may explain why Molina only saw Truly while Sanders only saw Baker.
"Mr. Hackers" LOL
-
If only NBC would just release the original films this whole issue of PM could be sorted out.
Fred
-
If only NBC would just release the original films this whole issue of PM could be sorted out.
Fred
No need. It has already been sorted out-------Prayer Man in Darnell is not Mr. Oswald (nor is she Mrs. Sarah Stanton).
Mr. Oswald was indeed on the west side of that doorway when Pres. Kennedy was passing the building. But he's already gone by the time of Darnell.
Ten years ago, Prayer Man in Darnell emerged as a focus of justifiably enormous interest. But now it's just a distraction from the all-important question: Where exactly did LHO go when he "went outside to watch P. Parade"?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gmf1rVFT/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg)
Turns out the answer has in fact been hidden in plain sight in the Hughes film all these years. Hughes shows Mr. Oswald taking a drink from the Coke he had shortly before bought from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1563MzKG/Hughes-doorway-longer.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/hjqrzvM2/Hughes-coke-bottle.gif)
The longstanding erroneous assumption that this reddish-shirted man is Mr. Billy Lovelady caused all the confusion
-
I just found this Gerda Dunckel gif of a Bell film frame, in it you will see three workers dressed in their grey colored service station uniforms to the left of the Cowboy in White, who I think is probably Malcolm Price. It is probably one of these three service station men who is already on the TSBD's steps who has been misidentified as Billy Lovelady in Darnell. In this second Gerda gif, a second service station man is headed for the TSBD's steps while the third service station man is watching him. To the left is another group of ladies in white and black heading for the TSBD's steps as well; thus showing there were ladies in black and white in the area that could also be on the steps with the first service station man. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_32.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gerda_Dunckel_25.gif)
-
Here is another picture of the four girls in a Couch frame gathered around a street lamp pole on Elm Street. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-213500.JPG)
https://ibb.co/5sj847L
It would appear one of your "girls" is wearing trousers.
I believe we are looking at A J Millican.
Not to worry.
-
https://ibb.co/5sj847L
It would appear one of your "girls" is wearing trousers.
I believe we are looking at A J Millican.
Not to worry.
Hi Dan, No, it is Karen Westbrook in her two tone tight fitting on the legs white dress! Here is where A. J. is: He keeps by himself! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bond9Large.jpg)
-
Not sure if there has been a complete speculative sequence constructed for where our hypothetical Oswald went just after the banner waving with curtain rod in the approx 20 secs Oswald had before Baker comes running to the steps ( Baker possibly going slightly off course because Baker saw the woman holding the paper bag up) .
If Oswald was on the lower steps of the west side of the center handrail , at the moment he dropped his banner/curtain rod, then there are 2 possibilities to disappear in 20 secs ( ie: not captured by Darnell film).
1. Oswald goes up the west side of the TSBD steps passing by PM , Buell W. Frazier , past Shelly and the fat Mr.Williams, and Oswald enters the front foyer/lobby and heads to the front storage room by the front staircase.
2.Oswald leaves the front steps and runs eastward towards Elm st and Houston st. Intersection and thus is just out of the perspective view of Darnell film.
-
A 3rd option: Oswald left the steps about 15 secs post shots and went westward to the SW corner of TSBD, then northward along the west side of TSBD to enter the west side door of the loading dock (annex).
He then entered TSBD from the loading dock annex via the roll up door right beside the rear staircase and elevators and he went up the rear stairs to the 2nd floor lunchroom.
The purpose most likely to retrieve a jacket , which he would have on when he got into Whaleys taxi . It was probably the gray jacket which Oswald had worn to work that Friday when he got the ride with BW Frazier.
Oswald may therefore, have been at the 2nd floor lunchroom door and was In the small vestibule area when Baker arrived to the landing at about 80 sec post shots.
Oswald Leaving the front steps of TSBD at about 15 secs post shots from the steps, and walking at pace of 5ft/sec about 240 ft approx in 30 secs , then up 18 steps in about 15 secs, then across the landing another 15 ft and thru 2 doors about 5 secs then into the lunchroom some distance , retrieve jacket and put it on, turn around and go back out, about 10-15 secs, thus about 75-80 secs post shots , Oswald is meeting Baker/Truly on the 2nd floor landing or just as Oswald’s in the vestibule about to either go down outer hallway or exit out onto the 2nd floor landing to go back down the rear staircase.
-
@Micheal Welsh: I think you have posted somewhere , a picture of a large fat (and short) lady wearing a black dress ( she’s in the foreground of the picture substantially , but she’s turned 180 degrees so it’s just her figure and head/hair.
This person might be a good match for PM.
-
In a video done by a Mr. Gary Fannin, at around the 55:00 minute mark, he shows a gold ring that belonged to Lee which Lee had purchased in Minsk. It was either still on Lee's finger when he died, or it had been given to Paul Groody at his funeral home. Mr. Groody placed Lee's wedding ring and this ring on Lee when Lee was buried in 1963. Mr. Groody retrieved these two rings from Lee's body in 1981 when it was exhumed. Marina Oswald wanted and received from Mr. Groody Lee's gold wedding ring, but she did not want the Russian red stone and gold ring with the letter L on it, so Mr. Groody stuck it in his pocket. He forgot about it, and it did not get back on Lee's finger. Eventually Mr. Fannin purchased it. I found a picture yesterday of Lee wearing this ring. So you can add a gold ring to Lee's right ring finger that would have been pretty shiny on 11-22-63. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/jail-1.jpg)
-
If Lee's jewelry is not enough to produce the amount of shine generated around Prayer Man's hands, then my best guess is he was eating a Hershey's Milk Chocolate bar. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51TR7qtK0GL._AC_SX450_.jpg)
-
Not sure why PM would peel back the Paper cover of a Hersheys bar to expose half the inner tin foil , yet keep holding the bar wrapped without taking a bite immediately, but waiting it seems about 10 secs or more holding it with both hands?
Wait a second! TIN FOIL!!! Are you making fun of us CTs , Michael Welch ? :)
-
If Lee's jewelry is not enough to produce the amount of shine generated around Prayer Man's hands, then my best guess is he was eating a Hershey's Milk Chocolate bar. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51TR7qtK0GL._AC_SX450_.jpg)
For any object to produce any shine it would require a light source to reflect off it..
The lady at the top of the steps is stood in shadow, so it isn't a metallic or glass or any kind of object that is reflecting light.
The brightness of the blob in the lady's hands is due to the extreme filtering the photographic evidence had to go through to bring this lady out of the shadows.
Whatever the object is it's not really as bright as it appears in the enhanced pictures.
Whatever shininess the object has appears to be generated by itself.
-
Hi Dan, No, it is Karen Westbrook in her two tone tight fitting on the legs white dress! Here is where A. J. is: He keeps by himself! Thank you for your input! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bond9Large.jpg)
Hi Michael,
Actually, Dan O'mera is correct. It is A.J. Millican. Ive seen the complete Jimmy Darnell film, and Millican is standing near where he was close by the lamp post during the assassination, with arms still folded. He has moved from his original position, to the curb on Elm Street, standing in front of the lamp post, and a little to it's left when facing it. Darnell is standing on the south side of Elm Street filming the sequence straight across from that lamp post. He captures two of the girls standing in front of the Stemmons Sign as Zapruder captured them. The two are standing in the grass to the left of the R.L. Thornton sign, as you face it from the south side of Elm Street. The same two women are captured at this same spot in still photos taken by-I believe- Cecil Stoughton from the Press Bus he was riding in.
-
Hi Michael,
Actually, Dan O'mera is correct. It is A.J. Millican. Ive seen the complete Jimmy Darnell film, and Millican is standing near where he was close by the lamp post during the assassination, with arms still folded. He has moved from his original position, to the curb on Elm Street, standing in front of the lamp post, and a little to it's left when facing it. Darnell is standing on the south side of Elm Street filming the sequence straight across from that lamp post. He captures two of the girls standing in front of the Stemmons Sign as Zapruder captured them. The two are standing in the grass to the left of the R.L. Thornton sign, as you face it from the south side of Elm Street. The same two women are captured at this same spot in still photos taken by-I believe- Cecil Stoughton from the Press Bus he was riding in.
Hi Steve, This is the Couch film. These are four ladies! Thank you for your input though. I respect you highly! But you and Dan are incorrect thinking A. J. is in the middle of the four girls. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-213500.JPG)
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6vMGQqT/Zapruder-Calvery-Mill.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mzxtkn6N)
In this crop from Zapruder we see Millican stood in front of the lamp post. To his left is a woman in a dark dress with a white belt. To his right is a woman in a white blouse and a dark-coloured skirt (possibly dark red). To her right is a woman in a long dark jacket with a lighter skirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKQwSH7X/AJMillican2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In this pic we see Millican stood in front of the lamp post with the same women.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5VDCNch/millican.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Again, Millican stood in front of the lamp post. In this pic his legs are slightly spread and it seems pretty obvious he is wearing trousers.
In all these pics Millican is stood in exactly the same position surrounded by the same women.
There is no doubt it is A J Millican.
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6vMGQqT/Zapruder-Calvery-Mill.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mzxtkn6N)
In this crop from Zapruder we see Millican stood in front of the lamp post. To his left is a woman in a dark dress with a white belt. To his right is a woman in a white blouse and a dark-coloured skirt (possibly dark red). To her right is a woman in a long dark jacket with a lighter skirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKQwSH7X/AJMillican2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In this pic we see Millican stood in front of the lamp post with the same women.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5VDCNch/millican.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Again, Millican stood in front of the lamp post. In this pic his legs are slightly spread and it seems pretty obvious he is wearing trousers.
In all these pics Millican is stood in exactly the same position surrounded by the same women.
There is no doubt it is A J Millican.
Hi Dan, This is not A. J.'s lamppost! He and the Woodward girls were at the next one up. This is the Stemmons Freeway lamppost where Templin and Hicks and Reed, and Westbrook and Calvery stood. By the time we see A. J. in Bond, the girls are gone at this lamppost. Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bond9Large.jpg)
-
Hi Michael,
Actually, Dan O'mera is correct. It is A.J. Millican. Ive seen the complete Jimmy Darnell film, and Millican is standing near where he was close by the lamp post during the assassination, with arms still folded. He has moved from his original position, to the curb on Elm Street, standing in front of the lamp post, and a little to it's left when facing it. Darnell is standing on the south side of Elm Street filming the sequence straight across from that lamp post. He captures two of the girls standing in front of the Stemmons Sign as Zapruder captured them. The two are standing in the grass to the left of the R.L. Thornton sign, as you face it from the south side of Elm Street. The same two women are captured at this same spot in still photos taken by-I believe- Cecil Stoughton from the Press Bus he was riding in.
Hi Steve and Dan, I stand corrected! If only I can read what you wrote Steve! They are all standing at the R. L, Thorton lamppost, not the Stemmons Freeway sign lamppost. Thank you for teaching me! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
-
Hi Steve and Dan, I stand corrected! If only I can read what you wrote Steve! They are all standing at the R. L, Thorton lamppost, not the Stemmons Freeway sign lamppost. Thank you for teaching me! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
OK, so back to square one.
If Westbrook, Clavary, Hicks and Reed aren't in the pictures of the immediate aftermath of the assassination where are they.
More importantly, where are they in this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXYzkCQ7/Zapruder-Calvery.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I agree with you that the available evidence strongly indicates all four are stood together and that Westbrook is wearing a headscarf.
The four women to the right of A J Millican have been confidently identified as Mary Woodward and her work colleagues.
The three women on the far left can only be Simmons, Holt and Jacobs as there are no alternatives for their identification from the Darnell images.
So where are Westbrook, Calvary, Hicks and Reed in the above picture.