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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 04:54:38 AM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Today at 03:05:23 AM
Is that true that Altgens had heard only one shot /loud noise, when he took his no.6 photo at Z-255?

If so , and IF the 1st loud shot  was theoretically fired at Z195-200 ,(as proposed by Andrew Mason) , then the 2nd shot which majority of forum members here seem to agree is causing the abrupt rotation turn of JCs right shoulder at Z224 must have been a suppressed shot which Altgens did not hear.

Perhaps this might explain also the of reaction by the SS agents not occurring (seemingly) until after Z255?

Andrew keeps trying to dismiss this Z224 reaction of JC as something not caused by a bullet impacting JC , so as to preserve his version of the WC theory that only 3 loud shots were fired by a solitary MC rifleman.

The majority of the LNs and some CTs (myself included) , however , agree that the reaction of JC at Z224 is more probably due to impact of a bullet hitting JC.

Therefore I propose that an adjustment must be made to Andrews theoretical shot sequence to include  the Z224 reaction of JC caused by a suppressed shot fired by 2nd gunman, which would resolve  the Altgens issue.
You can’t do that. The shot sequence 1……2…3 is based on evidence from dozens of independent sources.  You try very hard to convince us that you can see a bullet striking JBC at z224, but it does not fit large bodies of independent and consistent evidence. 

You have to look at it all the evidence.  There is just too much evidence that the first shot was after z186 and struck JFK and that there was a longer pause until the next shot and then after a shorter pause, the third shot.  That excludes a loud shot at z224.  And there is no evidence whatsoever of a silent shot.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Oswald Acted Alone Is The Most Popular Theory
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 03:24:57 AM »
That theory before telescopes were invented that the earth was the center of the universe and that the planets orbited in perfect circles was a simple elegant theory that fit well with the Orthodox Church.

You just had to ignore some of the anomalous unexplained motions of some of the planets and the theory worked fine. 🙂
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 03:18:34 AM »
The only theory I ever read to try to explain why Oswald was going SE was that Patton st leads to the Marsalles Zoo, and that Oswald was intending to hide out at the Zoo and then jump on board at night on an empty box car on the railroad that passes nearby the Zoo.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Ruby in Dealey Plaza?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 03:13:43 AM »
George H.W. Bush is on somewhere there in Dealey plaza too 🙂
:
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 03:05:23 AM »
Is that true that Altgens had heard only one shot /loud noise, when he took his no.6 photo at Z-255?

If so , and IF the 1st loud shot  was theoretically fired at Z195-200 ,(as proposed by Andrew Mason) , then the 2nd shot which majority of forum members here seem to agree is causing the abrupt rotation turn of JCs right shoulder at Z224 must have been a suppressed shot which Altgens did not hear.

Perhaps this might explain also the of reaction by the SS agents not occurring (seemingly) until after Z255?

Andrew keeps trying to dismiss this Z224 reaction of JC as something not caused by a bullet impacting JC , so as to preserve his version of the WC theory that only 3 loud shots were fired by a solitary MC rifleman.

The majority of the LNs and some CTs (myself included) , however , agree that the reaction of JC at Z224 is more probably due to impact of a bullet hitting JC.

Therefore I propose that an adjustment must be made to Andrews theoretical shot sequence to include  the Z224 reaction of JC caused by a suppressed shot fired by 2nd gunman, which would resolve  the Altgens issue.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 02:08:49 AM »
Quote from: Charles Collins on May 24, 2024, 01:03:24 PM

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan. But thanks for the video link. At least on my iPad and Chrome browser, if I go full-screen with the video, it is possible to pause it and then “grab” the control time bar at the bottom and make the video stop, or go forward or backward at any speed that you want to drag the control at. The first part, which shows the segment in which the limo occupants appear to be reacting to a missed first shot is clear enough to see all four of the VIP passengers. It appears to me that the first part of JBC’s reactions are similar to JFK’s reactions (until the wave by JFK) but lag behind JFK’s reactions by a little bit. They both initially appear to instinctively glance toward their spouses (a normal and instinctive male protective reaction) and one that JBC apparently didn’t remember accurately. Then both of them snap their heads to the right very quickly. JFK appears to have heard the loud shot but didn’t immediately recognize it as a shot, saw nothing that presented itself as a threat, and recovered his composure very quickly and began to wave back at the crowd. On the other hand, JBC appears to be continuing to try to turn as far to his right as he can in that seat. This would be in accordance with his testimony. Both Nellie Connally and Jackie turn to their right also. I really don’t believe that those reactions, from all four of them at roughly the same time, would be warranted by someone in the crowd calling out. After all, they were just leaving a huge crowd where a lot of people were doing just that.
There is a lot of other physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. Off the top of my head I can name a few:
1.  Rosemary Willis snaps her head back towards the TSBD and begins slowing down in order to stop. The spacing of the dots showing her path on the Roberdeaux map graphically illustrates the slow down. It can also be seen in the Z-film.
2.  The Hughes film has a skip of a few frames at approximately this same time. It is believed it could only be due to Hughes’ reaction to the sound of the shot by lifting his finger pressure on the camera button for an instant.
3.  The Dorman film has a huge jiggle upwards before being abruptly stopped at approximately this same time.
4.  The Tina Towner film stops just before this same time, this agrees with her statement that the first shot sounded about the same time, or slightly after, she stopped filming.
5. It appears to me that the Zapruder film has a jiggle about the same time that JFK snaps his head to the right.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind. But again, I cannot simply dismiss all the above physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. There are also plenty of witness accounts that also suggest this that I haven’t listed.
First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.  Physical evidence of a missed first shot would be a divot in the pavement, or in whatever it struck showing signs of being made by a bullet - such as little pieces of lead/antimony in it.  There is no physical evidence of a missed first shot.

There are equivocal movements of people in the photographic record.  By itself, no one would ever say that record shows reactions to a shot.  On the other hand, there is a mountain of witness evidence that says there was no missed first shot - that JFK reacted to being struck by the first shot.  You say witnesses are not reliable yet you cling to a few vague witness statements to interpret the photographic images to support a first shot miss.

This is the one thing Dan has right - the first shot struck JFK.  I disagree with Dan that this occurred at z222 and that JBC was struck in the back by it.  Mary Woodward and others described all the things we see in the zfilm prior to the car disappearing behind the Stemmons sign as happening BEFORE the first shot.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: WFAA-TV Zapruder Interview 11/22/63
« Last post by Jeff Shaw on Today at 01:34:26 AM »
Because I’m no photographic expert, I’ll avoid all the technical arguments for alteration and ask this- where is the rear head wound in the Z film? The wound described by Parkland doctors who stood within inches of JFKs body and saw cerebellum oozing from the wound? And if cerebellum is oozing from a head wound on a victim lying on his/her back, then that wound is , in fact, located in the occipital area of the skull. This is not conjecture on my part, it is testimony from expert witnesses- medical doctors who were present in Trauma Room 1 on 11/22/63.

Back in the 1990s I personally corresponded with Doctors Jones and Carrico, neither placed the head wound near the apparent temporal/top of head blowout depicted in the Z film. Adding further weight to these men’s observations is Dr. McClelland, also present in Trauma Room 1 and who, as recently as 2023 depicts the head wound as occipital.

Further support for an occipital blowout comes from Clint Hill, in his book from a few years ago. Even the First Lady’s Warren Report testimony (…but from the front, you know, there was nothing.”) can be easily construed as argument against the head wound seen in the Z film.

The fact that the wound observed by the aforementioned, and others, is absent from Abe’s film leads me to question the film’s authenticity. I see nothing silly in such a conclusion.

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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Charles Collins on Today at 01:04:13 AM »
Quote from: Dan O'meara on Today at 12:03:36 AM
Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan.

With all due respect Charles, I was being very kind by referring to your suggestion that JFK responded to the sound of a shot by waving and smiling at Mary Woodward and her colleagues as "ludicrous". It's the kind of nonsense I would expect from a "Greer shot JFK" kind of mentality.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind.

Really?
Then spend half an hour or so familiarising yourself with Mary Woodward's account of events.

Hughes has a skip
Dorman has a jiggle
Towner stops
Zapruder has a jiggle.
How embarrassing.


With all due respect Charles, I was being very kind by referring to your suggestion that JFK responded to the sound of a shot by waving and smiling at Mary Woodward and her colleagues as "ludicrous". It's the kind of nonsense I would expect from a "Greer shot JFK" kind of mentality.

All you are showing is disrespect. Why would you say you were respectfully disagreeing if you weren’t? What makes you think that JFK recognized the loud noise as a rifle shot? JBC is only one of a handful of witness who said they recognized it as a shot. The vast majority of the witnesses who were there (you were not) said they thought it was something other than a gunshot (backfire, firecracker, etc).


Really?
Then spend half an hour or so familiarising yourself with Mary Woodward's account of events.

I have read her account. It has been a while back, so frankly I do not remember it that well. Do you have a point to make?


Hughes has a skip
Dorman has a jiggle
Towner stops
Zapruder has a jiggle.
How embarrassing.


Please tell us how and why you think Hughes’ skip happened?

 These all took place at the same approximate time as the other items (head snaps, stop running, etc) listed in the earlier post above. Do you really think this is simply coincidence?
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: WFAA-TV Zapruder Interview 11/22/63
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:13:22 AM »
Quote from: Jeff Shaw on May 24, 2024, 01:13:32 AM
Like most on here I have been studying and researching the JFKA for decades. Until recently I could not bring myself to accept Zapruder alteration. The biggest obstacle for me was the WFAA interview with Zapruder the afternoon of the assassination. When asked what he saw, at one point Z takes his right hand and indicates a large wound to the right side of his head, almost in the exact location we saw being blown out in the film he took. From his indication, the wound was frontal-temporal, at least that’s my interpretation. Bear in mind this interview was done within an hour or so of the assassination. All of which begs the obvious question- Zapruder’s account, first-hand and fresh in his memory, comports with the Z film, and yet I don’t recall any of the Parkland personnel ever indicating a wound as frontal as these two sources indicate. If the film was altered, again I believe there’s solid evidence it was, how do I/we explain away Z’s account on live

Fellow CTs, help me get this monkey off my back.

You believe there is solid evidence the Zapruder film was altered?
Familiarise yourself with Roland Zavada and his report on the authentification of the Zapruder film. You can then put any silly notions of alteration behind you.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:03:36 AM »
Quote from: Charles Collins on May 24, 2024, 01:03:24 PM

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan. But thanks for the video link. At least on my iPad and Chrome browser, if I go full-screen with the video, it is possible to pause it and then “grab” the control time bar at the bottom and make the video stop, or go forward or backward at any speed that you want to drag the control at. The first part, which shows the segment in which the limo occupants appear to be reacting to a missed first shot is clear enough to see all four of the VIP passengers. It appears to me that the first part of JBC’s reactions are similar to JFK’s reactions (until the wave by JFK) but lag behind JFK’s reactions by a little bit. They both initially appear to instinctively glance toward their spouses (a normal and instinctive male protective reaction) and one that JBC apparently didn’t remember accurately. Then both of them snap their heads to the right very quickly. JFK appears to have heard the loud shot but didn’t immediately recognize it as a shot, saw nothing that presented itself as a threat, and recovered his composure very quickly and began to wave back at the crowd. On the other hand, JBC appears to be continuing to try to turn as far to his right as he can in that seat. This would be in accordance with his testimony. Both Nellie Connally and Jackie turn to their right also. I really don’t believe that those reactions, from all four of them at roughly the same time, would be warranted by someone in the crowd calling out. After all, they were just leaving a huge crowd where a lot of people were doing just that.
There is a lot of other physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. Off the top of my head I can name a few:
1.  Rosemary Willis snaps her head back towards the TSBD and begins slowing down in order to stop. The spacing of the dots showing her path on the Roberdeaux map graphically illustrates the slow down. It can also be seen in the Z-film.
2.  The Hughes film has a skip of a few frames at approximately this same time. It is believed it could only be due to Hughes’ reaction to the sound of the shot by lifting his finger pressure on the camera button for an instant.
3.  The Dorman film has a huge jiggle upwards before being abruptly stopped at approximately this same time.
4.  The Tina Towner film stops just before this same time, this agrees with her statement that the first shot sounded about the same time, or slightly after, she stopped filming.
5. It appears to me that the Zapruder film has a jiggle about the same time that JFK snaps his head to the right.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind. But again, I cannot simply dismiss all the above physical evidence that suggests an early missed shot. There are also plenty of witness accounts that also suggest this that I haven’t listed.

Calling an idea ludicrous isn’t being respectful of it Dan.

With all due respect Charles, I was being very kind by referring to your suggestion that JFK responded to the sound of a shot by waving and smiling at Mary Woodward and her colleagues as "ludicrous". It's the kind of nonsense I would expect from a "Greer shot JFK" kind of mentality.

I have been trying to explore different possibilities with an open mind.

Really?
Then spend half an hour or so familiarising yourself with Mary Woodward's account of events.

Hughes has a skip
Dorman has a jiggle
Towner stops
Zapruder has a jiggle.
How embarrassing.
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