Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Royell Storing]

I've stated exactly that about a dozen times in this thread alone.
Don't you take any notice of the things other people are posting?

   My questions are only for the "current" record. Sometimes people change their mind when New Fact(s) are introduced. And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker. That could change too. You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that. Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley and they decided to make a (R) turn and enter the TSBD via the "wide open" Huge Gates? This would put them right there at the freight elevator where Officer Baker viewed the 2 guys. 

[Dan O'meara]

   My questions are only for the "current" record. Sometimes people change their mind when New Fact(s) are introduced. And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker. That could change too. You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that. Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley and they decided to make a (R) turn and enter the TSBD via the "wide open" Huge Gates? This would put them right there at the freight elevator where Officer Baker viewed the 2 guys.

My questions are only for the "current" record.

Your questions reveal that you are unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
Your insinuation, that my arguments have changed during the course of this thread, reveals that you are completely unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
You are only interested in your own posts, which always have a 'disconnected' feeling about them because you are not actually interested in the topic of whatever thread you are posting on. You are just looking for an opportunity to post about your own "current" theory - STAY TUNED.

And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker.

I'm not "buying into" anything.
If you were familiar with the contents of this thread you would see that I am presenting my own arguments and timeline. Although I'm not the first, I'm actually doing something quite novel - I'm taking Vicki Adams at her word. That she did race down from the 4th floor within seconds of the shooting and that she did, indeed, see Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators when she got down to the first floor and that she did all this before Baker and Truly reached the same area (Baker then reporting seeing two white men in this area - Shelley and Lovelady).
Nearly everyone, on both sides of the fence, take the word of Shelley and Lovelady about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. But it is the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate that these two men are lying in their various statements about their movements.

You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that

This statement demonstrates your ignorance regarding the contents of this thread.
I don't know how many times I've made the point that the only account of their movements given by these two men that can be considered reliable are the affidavits they gave a couple of hours after the shooting.
These are their very first statements given to law enforcement.
In the affidavits Shelley is on the front steps, he runs across the street and back, the re-enters the building. Lovelady is stood on the front steps and doesn't even leave the steps before re-entering the building. No walking along the Elm St ext., no hanging around the railroad yard, no re-entering the building through the west door.
Their affidavits are very strong evidence supporting a re-entry through the front doors.
As is the tightness of the timeline in terms of Vicki Adams seeing both men near the elevators 50 -60 seconds after the shooting.

Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley

There's no need to "suppose" any such thing.
They are NOT Shelley and Lovelady.
So many people have bought into a single, clearly faked image but this has led them to completely disregard the testimonial evidence and start creating their own sequence of events, not supported by any evidence. In fact, utterly refuted by the testimonial evidence.

The crux of the matter is the interaction of Shelley and Lovelady with Gloria Calvery.
This interaction must occur before we see 'Shelley and Lovelady' on he Elm St ext. in Darnell.
But this image is taken around 25 seconds after the shooting and the two men are already well down the street, making it impossible for them to have already had the interaction with Gloria on the front steps (both men are unequivocal about this point in their WC testimonies).
In order to overcome this insurmountable problem, people like Tom and Lance have started peddling the idea that BOTH Lovelady and Shelley raced across the street and met Gloria coming the other way at the "little, old island" dividing the two Elm Streets.
This is a fabrication based on zero evidence created because of their unwavering belief in the image Bart Kamp sharpened up.
They never thought to question this image even though the identification is refuted by the testimonial evidence.
So they've made up something new and once that happens any realistic debate ends.

[Lance Payette]

Perry Mason, Episode #297, “The Case of the Vanishing Assassin” (air date 11/22/64).

As always, Perry, Della Street, Hamilton Berger and Gomer Pyle are sitting at a table in an upscale restaurant at the end of the show, as Della attempts to summarize the plot for 30 million confused viewers who didn’t quite follow it.

Della: “And so, Perry, Shelley and Lovelady left the TSBD steps only long enough to be captured on film before turning through the Huge Gates and reentering the TSBD through the little door next to the parking area … however, the Warren Commission needed to discredit Adams’ account of coming down immediately from the fourth floor but not hearing or encountering Oswald on the stairs – correct so far? … so, Perry, both Lovelady and Shelley were induced to lie and say they had actually spent three minutes on the steps, walked down to the railroad tracks, and observed the festivities for a considerable period before returning to the first floor … this, of course, makes it seem that Adams’ account of seeing Shelley and Lovelady had to be much later – correct? … but wait, Perry, why did Adams then say she had actually said nothing about Shelley and Lovelady at the WC and that her testimony had been altered, presumably by the same evildoers who caused Shelley and Lovelady to lie? … and why, Perry, did Styles say they had seen no one and she had no idea what Adams was talking about - did the evildoers pay her off? … and besides, Perry, why did Shelley and Lovelady, after having told 27 lies anyway, simply not say they had in fact seen Adams but it was many minutes after the JFKA when they had reentered the TSBD … and how do the Three Stooges figure into this anyway? ... I'm still kinda lost here ....”

Gomer: “Sha-zam!”

Perry: “Have another martini, Della.”

[Royell Storing]

My questions are only for the "current" record.

Your questions reveal that you are unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
Your insinuation, that my arguments have changed during the course of this thread, reveals that you are completely unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
You are only interested in your own posts, which always have a 'disconnected' feeling about them because you are not actually interested in the topic of whatever thread you are posting on. You are just looking for an opportunity to post about your own "current" theory - STAY TUNED.

And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker.

I'm not "buying into" anything.
If you were familiar with the contents of this thread you would see that I am presenting my own arguments and timeline. Although I'm not the first, I'm actually doing something quite novel - I'm taking Vicki Adams at her word. That she did race down from the 4th floor within seconds of the shooting and that she did, indeed, see Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators when she got down to the first floor and that she did all this before Baker and Truly reached the same area (Baker then reporting seeing two white men in this area - Shelley and Lovelady).
Nearly everyone, on both sides of the fence, take the word of Shelley and Lovelady about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. But it is the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate that these two men are lying in their various statements about their movements.

You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that

This statement demonstrates your ignorance regarding the contents of this thread.
I don't know how many times I've made the point that the only account of their movements given by these two men that can be considered reliable are the affidavits they gave a couple of hours after the shooting.
These are their very first statements given to law enforcement.
In the affidavits Shelley is on the front steps, he runs across the street and back, the re-enters the building. Lovelady is stood on the front steps and doesn't even leave the steps before re-entering the building. No walking along the Elm St ext., no hanging around the railroad yard, no re-entering the building through the west door.
Their affidavits are very strong evidence supporting a re-entry through the front doors.
As is the tightness of the timeline in terms of Vicki Adams seeing both men near the elevators 50 -60 seconds after the shooting.

Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley

There's no need to "suppose" any such thing.
They are NOT Shelley and Lovelady.
So many people have bought into a single, clearly faked image but this has led them to completely disregard the testimonial evidence and start creating their own sequence of events, not supported by any evidence. In fact, utterly refuted by the testimonial evidence.

The crux of the matter is the interaction of Shelley and Lovelady with Gloria Calvery.
This interaction must occur before we see 'Shelley and Lovelady' on he Elm St ext. in Darnell.
But this image is taken around 25 seconds after the shooting and the two men are already well down the street, making it impossible for them to have already had the interaction with Gloria on the front steps (both men are unequivocal about this point in their WC testimonies).
In order to overcome this insurmountable problem, people like Tom and Lance have started peddling the idea that BOTH Lovelady and Shelley raced across the street and met Gloria coming the other way at the "little, old island" dividing the two Elm Streets.
This is a fabrication based on zero evidence created because of their unwavering belief in the image Bart Kamp sharpened up.
They never thought to question this image even though the identification is refuted by the testimonial evidence.
So they've made up something new and once that happens any realistic debate ends.

  There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext. They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot. And we also need to consider that these 2 guys are no Phi Beta Cappa's. Their WC Q/A permitted the WC attorney to deeply probe their actions that day.   

[Lance Payette]

  There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext. They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot. And we also need to consider that these 2 guys are no Phi Betta Cappa's. Their WC Q/A permitted the WC attorney to deeply probe their actions that day.   

Since I am a Phi Beta Kappa, I would simply point out the correct spelling.

[Royell Storing]

Since I am a Phi Beta Kappa, I would simply point out the correct spelling.

  Corrected for the record.

[Tom Graves]

[...]

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK, or do you think it was an evil, evil conspiracy by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil FBI, the evil, evil Secret Service, the evil, evil Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex, or the evil, evil [fill  in the blank]?

-- Tom

[Zeon Mason]

Like Dan pointed out, we don’t really know for certain if Truly Identified Lovelady and Shelley as TSBD employees to Baker or not.

However, it seems logical imo, that if those 2 men were NOT known by Truly that he would have immediately wanted to know who they were and what they were doing in the building loitering around.by those elevators only 70 secs after the shots had been fired.

And at this 70 sec post shots interval, this would be the more probable time imo to have requested Lovelady and Shelley to “guard “ the elevators .

Otherwise it’s not until at least 5-6 minutes after the shooting when Truly and Baker would have seen Lovelady again because they were on the roof of TSBD for at least 5 minutes before they came back DOWN to the 4th floor using the EAST elevator. This is therefore not likely the interval that Dorothy Garner would have seen Baker /Truly and described as seeing them coming up the staircase.

So a reasonable speculation here is that the WC decided to purposely ignore any persons whom would cause a problem for the WC timeline for Oswald Running down stairs scenario,

So just as Truly and Baker may have been “advised” to avoid naming Lovelady and Shelley at the rear elevators,  likewise they might have been told not to mention seeing Dorothy Garner on the 4th floor when B/T arrived , (using the rear staircase) just after they had seen Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom at approx 90 secs post shots.

So what we have here is a pattern by the WC that seems consistently to be avoiding details relating to the 2 white men by the freight elevators,  the 2 girls  on the stairs, Adams/Stiles) and the Lady In Waiting , Dorothy Garner) waiting by the 4th floor west window next to the rear staircase after she had followed behind A/S “almost immediately” after they left the 4th floor office.

Here is a short list of what seem to be circumstantial oddities that suggest a pattern of avoidance , obfuscation and or modification  of witness statements by the WC whenever those might cause  conflict with the Oswald staircase descent timeline:

1. Bakers WC brief mention of the 2 men,  not further  questioned by WC regarding the identity of the 2 men near the rear elevators at approx 70 sec  post shots.
2.No further WC questioning of Truly as to the identity of the 2 men.
3  Alterations of Adam’s WC statements ( by her claim ) regarding seeing Lovelady/Shelley and the timing of her descent to 1st floor.
4. Only a brief reference (Belin memo) to Dorothy Garners statement  of seeing Baker and Truly coming up to the 4th floor after she had  seen Adams and Stiles go down. No further questioning from the WC  of Garner on this detail.
5.  Carolyn Arnold’s sighting Oswald SEATED in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 at the same time that Arnold Rowland saw a man with rifle in hand , standing at the SW window 6th floor. Carolyn Arnold not called to testify, while WC  attempted to discredit Arnold Rowland.
6. Will Fritz failure to record interviews with Oswald, resorting instead  to scribbled notes. Therefore the reference to Oswald sighting specifically the 2 “negro” James Jarman and Harold Norman could never be known certainly what exactly Oswald had said regarding the 2 men or why he had named them.