Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Royell Storing]

Where can I see the image or images you're referring to?

   Those Color Film images of Lovelady on the (R) of the TSBD front steps are on "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" DVD. It is also posted on YOU TUBE as, " Unsolved History: Death in Dealey Plaza Discovery Channel 2/26/2003" by Vince Palamara. Go To - 5:50 - 5:56. The balding guy on the lower (R) side of the steps is Lovelady. Gary Mack hosts this presentation and I think he provided most of these images from the Sixth Floor Museum, so they are very detailed. On the DVD the images are much sharper than this YOU TUBE posting. On the DVD you can see the brownish/red color of Lovelady's shirt. There's no question we are seeing Lovelady here. I highly recommend viewing this entire DVD. There's a ton of JFK Assassination images on it. So many are flying by that sometimes you need to frame-by-frame them.  Again, do you know how long after the Kill Shot that these images of Lovelady on the (R) side of the TSBD Steps were filmed? 

[Dan O'meara]

   Those Color Film images of Lovelady on the (R) of the TSBD front steps are on "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" DVD. It is also posted on YOU TUBE as, " Unsolved History: Death in Dealey Plaza Discovery Channel 2/26/2003" by Vince Palamara. Go To - 5:50 - 5:56. The balding guy on the lower (R) side of the steps is Lovelady. Gary Mack hosts this presentation and I think he provided most of these images from the Sixth Floor Museum, so they are very detailed. On the DVD the images are much sharper than this YOU TUBE posting. On the DVD you can see the brownish/red color of Lovelady's shirt. There's no question we are seeing Lovelady here. I highly recommend viewing this entire DVD. There's a ton of JFK Assassination images on it. So many are flying by that sometimes you need to frame-by-frame them.  Again, do you know how long after the Kill Shot that these images of Lovelady on the (R) side of the TSBD Steps were filmed?

It's the Hughes film.
The image I posted in my last Reply is from that.
I believe part of it shows either Hank Norman or Junior Jarman being ushered back into the building. After coming down from the 5th floor, they ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside. It must be about 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination.

[Tom Graves]

After coming down from the 5th floor, Hank Norman and/or Junior Jarman ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside.

FWIW, that's Bonnie Ray Williams on a lower step, wearing what looks to be a dark-brown shirt and tan pants.

He, Danny Arce, and Shelley were taken to the DPD Station around 1:30 to make affidavits.

 

[Lance Payette]

FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.

Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).

Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.

In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).

I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).

I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.

[Lance Payette]

Looks like all my images from Pat Speer's site disappeared? Well, anyway, the link for his Chapter 4 and the images found there gave me my clearest understanding of exactly where Shelley and Lovelady returned to the TSBD, which seems to be a point of confusion. Oops, now they're back! They weren't there this morning when I wrote this post.

You can also see a clear photo and a diagram here: https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/leaving-the-texas-school-book-depository.pdf, where Armstrong has LEE leaving out of the door that Shelley and Lovelady entered! HARVEY, of course, departed on the north side.

Actually, that's not where I pictured the supposed Nash Rambler either. Wouldn't "parked right outside the little door" have made more sense? Probably daredevil LEE said, "No way, I want this as risky as possible so I have something to tell FAKE MARINA and FAKE JUNE about when I get back to the FAKE HOME." Or something like that.

[Lance Payette]

For those not inclined to wade through Pat Speer's musings, he basically has Shelley and Lovelady leaving the steps almost immediately, spending far less time down by the tracks than they estimated, and being back in the TSBD far quicker than is generally supposed. It seems to me that something like this almost surely has to be correct. In a situation such as they were in, I just don't think we can hold people to their time estimates as though they were precise. We have both the time dilation factor, which is very real, as well as the fact that people say things like "I'll just be a minute" when they really mean ten seconds.

I have no dog in the fight, but "people being off in their time estimates" sounds to me far more plausible than all sorts of fakery, witness intimidation and lying.

This from Pat Speer will give you the idea:

But this, too, was a problem. And a pretty big one at that. While Shelley and Lovelady were purported to have told the FBI they spent 5-10 minutes in the train yards before re-entering the building, those claims were made in unsigned statements. So how did they testify? Well, when asked how long they spent by the railroad tracks, Shelley said he "wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half" and Lovelady said "just a minute, maybe minute and a half."

Now, wait a second. It would have taken Shelley and Lovelady but 15 seconds or so to reach the train yards, and another 15 seconds or so to re-enter the building via the side door. And they had already left the steps when Baker and Truly ran up to the steps. So let's cut 5 seconds off that 30.

So...by their own approximation, Shelley and Lovelady were back inside the building within 85-115 seconds of Baker and Truly's entering the building (as opposed to the "several minutes" claimed in the report).

Well, this nearly overlaps with the re-enactment performed by Baker on 3-20-64, which Baker thought was a bit faster than it had been in reality.

[Royell Storing]

It's the Hughes film.
The image I posted in my last Reply is from that.
I believe part of it shows either Hank Norman or Junior Jarman being ushered back into the building. After coming down from the 5th floor, they ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside. It must be about 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination.

   Thanks for the "Hughes Film" ID of that color film snippet. I'll look it up on my "Pictures Of The Pain" book later today. The internet went down for almost 24 hrs here and just came back up. I will be playing "catch up" until this afternoon. I am going to have to verify the 10-15 minutes after the kill shot estimate for that Hughes color snippet. Lovelady said that he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes after going down the Elm St Ext with Shelley and then entering the TSBD. How could Lovelady be outside the TSBD only 10-15 minutes after the kill shot, (as seen on that Hughes footage), if he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes following the Kill Shot? That snippet has always puzzled me with respect to how it does not seem to fit into the Lovelady WC Testimony/timeline.

[Royell Storing]

FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.

Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).

Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.

In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).

I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).

I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.

   I have never experienced this "time dilation" stuff. It sounds like something out of a dream sequence from "Gilligan's Island". This is the kinda plot "contrivance" that is used to fill gaps inna "story".