Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Lance Payette]

FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.

Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).

Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.

In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).

I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).

I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.

[Lance Payette]

Looks like all my images from Pat Speer's site disappeared? Well, anyway, the link for his Chapter 4 and the images found there gave me my clearest understanding of exactly where Shelley and Lovelady returned to the TSBD, which seems to be a point of confusion. Oops, now they're back! They weren't there this morning when I wrote this post.

You can also see a clear photo and a diagram here: https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/leaving-the-texas-school-book-depository.pdf, where Armstrong has LEE leaving out of the door that Shelley and Lovelady entered! HARVEY, of course, departed on the north side.

Actually, that's not where I pictured the supposed Nash Rambler either. Wouldn't "parked right outside the little door" have made more sense? Probably daredevil LEE said, "No way, I want this as risky as possible so I have something to tell FAKE MARINA and FAKE JUNE about when I get back to the FAKE HOME." Or something like that.

[Lance Payette]

For those not inclined to wade through Pat Speer's musings, he basically has Shelley and Lovelady leaving the steps almost immediately, spending far less time down by the tracks than they estimated, and being back in the TSBD far quicker than is generally supposed. It seems to me that something like this almost surely has to be correct. In a situation such as they were in, I just don't think we can hold people to their time estimates as though they were precise. We have both the time dilation factor, which is very real, as well as the fact that people say things like "I'll just be a minute" when they really mean ten seconds.

I have no dog in the fight, but "people being off in their time estimates" sounds to me far more plausible than all sorts of fakery, witness intimidation and lying.

This from Pat Speer will give you the idea:

But this, too, was a problem. And a pretty big one at that. While Shelley and Lovelady were purported to have told the FBI they spent 5-10 minutes in the train yards before re-entering the building, those claims were made in unsigned statements. So how did they testify? Well, when asked how long they spent by the railroad tracks, Shelley said he "wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half" and Lovelady said "just a minute, maybe minute and a half."

Now, wait a second. It would have taken Shelley and Lovelady but 15 seconds or so to reach the train yards, and another 15 seconds or so to re-enter the building via the side door. And they had already left the steps when Baker and Truly ran up to the steps. So let's cut 5 seconds off that 30.

So...by their own approximation, Shelley and Lovelady were back inside the building within 85-115 seconds of Baker and Truly's entering the building (as opposed to the "several minutes" claimed in the report).

Well, this nearly overlaps with the re-enactment performed by Baker on 3-20-64, which Baker thought was a bit faster than it had been in reality.

[Royell Storing]

It's the Hughes film.
The image I posted in my last Reply is from that.
I believe part of it shows either Hank Norman or Junior Jarman being ushered back into the building. After coming down from the 5th floor, they ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside. It must be about 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination.

   Thanks for the "Hughes Film" ID of that color film snippet. I'll look it up on my "Pictures Of The Pain" book later today. The internet went down for almost 24 hrs here and just came back up. I will be playing "catch up" until this afternoon. I am going to have to verify the 10-15 minutes after the kill shot estimate for that Hughes color snippet. Lovelady said that he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes after going down the Elm St Ext with Shelley and then entering the TSBD. How could Lovelady be outside the TSBD only 10-15 minutes after the kill shot, (as seen on that Hughes footage), if he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes following the Kill Shot? That snippet has always puzzled me with respect to how it does not seem to fit into the Lovelady WC Testimony/timeline.

[Royell Storing]

FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.

Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).

Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.

In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).

I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).

I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.

   I have never experienced this "time dilation" stuff. It sounds like something out of a dream sequence from "Gilligan's Island". This is the kinda plot "contrivance" that is used to fill gaps inna "story".

[Lance Payette]

   I have never experienced this "time dilation" stuff. It sounds like something out of a dream sequence from "Gilligan's Island". This is the kinda plot "contrivance" that is used to fill gaps inna "story".

It's very common and well-documented. Pat Speer links to a scientific piece on it. I've experienced it at least twice, once in a motorcycle accident and once in a car accident. Time slows down, sometimes to an astounding extent. The point is nothing more than that time estimates by participants in an extreme event such as the JFKA can be very unreliable.

[Lance Payette]

This is just an attempt at clarification. I realize that Tom’s (and the late Sandy Larsen’s) identification of Tartan Skirted Woman as Gloria Calvery is extremely important to him for some reason. What I don’t quite understand is why. (Assuming we can trust Gloria’s grave marker, her name was Calvery and not Calvary as it is often misspelled.)

To be clear, I’m not insisting Tartan Skirted Woman isn’t Calvery. I’m just puzzled.

Back in the day, a well-respected researcher named Linda Giovanna Zambanini debated the identification of Calvery with Tom and Sandy, and serious researchers such as Robin Unger, Bart Kamp and others were aligned with Linda in believing that Chubby Crying Woman in the image below was in fact Calvery. It seemed to me that Linda and her supporters made a good case, using old photos, that Chubby Crying Woman looks a lot more like Calvery than Holt (as Tom claims). There was certainly some facial similarity between Calvery and Holt.

Now, however, I see that Linda has “tentatively” joined the Tartan Skirted Woman brigade at the Calvery memorial site. She has an arrow pointing to Tartan Skirted Woman but with a question mark: “Gloria Calvery?”

We will concede that it is Tartan Skirted Woman going up the steps with All White Woman, but my question is, “Why must this be Calvery? What’s the great significance?”

For Tartan Skirted Woman to be Calvery, the following would have to be true:

1. Westbrook’s recollection in 2016 as to where she was standing would have to be dead wrong.

2. Westbrook’s identification of Calvery in the photos would have to be dead wrong, even though “her” Calvery is dressed completely differently from Tartan Skirted Woman.

3. Westbrook’s identification of herself would have to be dead wrong. According to Tom, the woman Westbrook thinks is herself, from both the front and back in photos, is actually Simmons-Nelson. One of the women standing with Tartan Skirted Woman is presumably Tom’s Westbrook, but she didn’t recognize herself in 2016?

Westbrook’s recollection was so strong that she confidently disagreed with the supposed identification of Calvery by the latter’s own son.

Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.

Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event.

What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal?

Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.”

Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is.