The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Royell Storing]

Dear Comrade Storing,

How many inches below JFK's shirt collar line and/or the tip of his mastoid process do you think the bullet wound in the autopsy photo is?

The FBI said about 5.75 inches for the former, and the autopsy report said about 5.5 inches for the latter. Are either of these measurements accurate in your humble opinion?

Grok says the above measurements indicate that the bullet wound was in the upper back, near the back-neck juncture.

Do you agree that the autopsy photo shows that the wound is near the back-neck juncture, or do you think it's farther down the back than that?

Do you agree that the bullet caused a fracture of the right transverse process of the T1 vertebra?

-- Tom

   Lotta verbiage and numbers/measurements being tossed around. STOP confusing yourself and others. Simply examine the JFK Autopsy Photo showing the BACK Wound.

[Tom Graves]

Lotta verbiage and numbers/measurements being tossed around. STOP confusing yourself and others. Simply examine the JFK Autopsy Photo showing the BACK Wound.

So, you don't KNOW?

[Royell Storing]

  So, you're in the jury box and 1 attorney talks about "measurements", and then Vinny LaGuardia Gambini gets up and saying nothing, walks in front of the jury displaying the JFK Autopsy BACK Photo. Case Closed!

[Tom Graves]

So, you're in the jury box and 1 attorney talks about "measurements", and then Vinny LaGuardia Gambini gets up and saying nothing, walks in front of the jury displaying the JFK Autopsy BACK Photo. Case Closed!

Storing,

DO you AGREE that THE bullet caused a FRACTURE of the right transverse PROCESS of JFK's T-1 VERTEBRA?

[Michael T. Griffith]

To get a better idea of just how minimally CE 399 was damaged during its alleged journey, consider the fact that the bullet originally weighed 161 grains and that it weighed 158.6 grains when it was entered into evidence, a loss of only 2.4 grains of its substance. To put it another way, after supposedly tearing through seven layers of human skin, tearing through a human neck, tearing through a human chest, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering the very hard right distal radius bone, this magic bullet lost only 1.5% of its substance.

In addition, CE 399's lands and grooves are intact and its only deformation is a modest deformation at its base, which isn't even apparent unless you view the bullet from its bottom.

Not a single bullet in any of the SBT wound ballistics tests that hit two bones or that traveled through 12 inches of gelatin and hit one bone or that traveled through a goat carcass and broke a rib bone--not one of those bullets emerged with 98.5% of its substance, with its lands and grooves intact, and with only minimal deformation at its base.

Indeed, as mentioned in previous replies, in the WC's SBT test, even FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation than CE 399.

And, needless to say, no one has yet found a single case in forensic records of a bullet emerging in such nearly pristine condition after doing damage comparable to that of CE 399. When Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the eight other members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel to produce one such case, they could not do so.

This is not surprising, since we know for an absolute fact that no bullet exited the front shirt slits because there was no hole in the tie, which proves that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets.

[Tom Graves]

Comrade Griffith posted:

To get a better idea of just how minimally CE 399 was damaged during its alleged journey, consider the fact that the bullet originally weighed 161 grains and that it weighed 158.6 grains when it was entered into evidence, a loss of only 2.4 grains of its substance. To put it another way, after supposedly tearing through seven layers of human skin, tearing through a human neck, tearing through a human chest, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering the very hard right distal radius bone, this magic bullet lost only 1.5% of its substance.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

I asked Grok:

"Is it fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company military surplus 6.5 x 52 mm Carcano rounds could have varied by a grain or two? In which year were Oswald's rounds manufactured, anyway?"

Grok: Weight Variation: Yes, it is fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano military surplus rounds could have varied by a grain or two due to manufacturing tolerances typical of ammunition from that era. While no specific documentation confirms weight variation for the exact lot used by Lee Harvey Oswald, minor variances (e.g., 1-2 grains) are common in mass-produced military ammunition due to factors like powder consistency, bullet molding, or quality control standards of the time. The standard bullet weight for these full metal jacket rounds is consistently cited as 160 grains in historical and ballistic records.Year of Manufacture: The exact year of manufacture for the specific WCC 6.5×52mm Carcano rounds used by Oswald is not definitively stated in primary sources like the Warren Commission or FBI reports. However, these rounds were part of a surplus batch produced by WCC in the 1950s, likely between 1954 and 1955, for use in U.S.-supplied Carcano rifles. This is based on information from firearms historians and surplus ammunition analyses, which note that WCC manufactured these rounds under contract for the U.S. government, primarily for export or military aid. The rounds were later sold as surplus through mail-order companies like Klein’s Sporting Goods, from which Oswald purchased his rifle and ammunition in 1963. No precise lot number or manufacturing date beyond this range is provided in available records.

In addition, CE 399's lands and grooves are intact and its only deformation is a modest deformation at its base, which isn't even apparent unless you view the bullet from its bottom. Not a single bullet in any of the SBT wound ballistics tests that hit two bones or that traveled through 12 inches of gelatin and hit one bone or that traveled through a goat carcass and broke a rib bone--not one of those bullets emerged with 98.5% of its substance, with its lands and grooves intact, and with only minimal deformation at its base. Indeed, as mentioned in previous replies, in the WC's SBT test, even FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation than CE 399. And, needless to say, no one has yet found a single case in forensic records of a bullet emerging in such nearly pristine condition after doing damage comparable to that of CE 399. When Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the eight other members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel to produce one such case, they could not do so.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Did they try firing them through a living man's lower neck/upper back (or through a corpse or a block of ballistics gel in case there were no volunteers) in such a way that the bullet would then travel about three feet and penetrate another living man's (or corpse's) chest from back-to-front, ride along (and smash) his fifth rib in the process, exit below his nipple, and then penetrate his wrist butt-end-first and strike in the living man (or corpse) the only hard bone that CE-399 is known to have hit in either JFK or JBC, the volunteer's (or corpse's) radial bone, while tumbling and/or twirling?

Tangentially (pardon the pun), are you aware of the fact that CE-399 ended up with a longitudinal twist?

How do you suppose that happened?

Do you postulate that it was manufactured by Chubby Checker?

[Michael T. Griffith]

Comrade Griffith posted:

Dear Comrade Griffith,

I asked Grok:

"Is it fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company military surplus 6.5 x 52 mm Carcano rounds could have varied by a grain or two? In which year were Oswald's rounds manufactured, anyway?"

Grok: Weight Variation: Yes, it is fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano military surplus rounds could have varied by a grain or two due to manufacturing tolerances typical of ammunition from that era. While no specific documentation confirms weight variation for the exact lot used by Lee Harvey Oswald, minor variances (e.g., 1-2 grains) are common in mass-produced military ammunition due to factors like powder consistency, bullet molding, or quality control standards of the time. The standard bullet weight for these full metal jacket rounds is consistently cited as 160 grains in historical and ballistic records.Year of Manufacture: The exact year of manufacture for the specific WCC 6.5×52mm Carcano rounds used by Oswald is not definitively stated in primary sources like the Warren Commission or FBI reports. However, these rounds were part of a surplus batch produced by WCC in the 1950s, likely between 1954 and 1955, for use in U.S.-supplied Carcano rifles. This is based on information from firearms historians and surplus ammunition analyses, which note that WCC manufactured these rounds under contract for the U.S. government, primarily for export or military aid. The rounds were later sold as surplus through mail-order companies like Klein’s Sporting Goods, from which Oswald purchased his rifle and ammunition in 1963. No precise lot number or manufacturing date beyond this range is provided in available records.

Umm, okay. So the bullet either lost no substance or lost a mere 4-5 grains instead of 2.4 grains. No SBT test bullet or any bullet from a verified forensic case lost so little substance after doing so much damage.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Did they try firing them through a living man's lower neck/upper back (or through a corpse or a block of ballistics gel in case there were no volunteers) in such a way that the bullet would then travel about three feet and penetrate another living man's (or corpse's) chest from back-to-front, ride along (and smash) his fifth rib in the process, exit below his nipple, and then penetrate his wrist butt-end-first and strike in the living man (or corpse) the only hard bone that CE-399 is known to have hit in either JFK or JBC, the volunteer's (or corpse's) radial bone, while tumbling and/or twirling?

Tangentially (pardon the pun), are you aware of the fact that CE-399 ended up with a longitudinal twist? How do you suppose that happened?

No! I had no idea! The longitudinal twist is very slight and is at the base, as is the slight deformation. I know your mind seems unwilling to process this fact, but I'll repeat it anyway: bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation as CE 399.

I see you're again arguing that wound ballistics tests are worthless unless the test bullets exactly duplicate the angle and speed of the original missile and exactly duplicate the original target, which is just ridiculous and amateurish.

I see you're still refusing to face the fact that there was no hole in the tie but only a nick on the top of the tie know, which proves that no bullet exited the shirt slits, which in turn destroys the SBT.

I'm guessing you won't read this, but here's an article by John Hunt, one of the most careful and respected researchers in the community, on CE 399 and the SBT:

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

[Tom Graves]

Bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation as CE-399.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Round-nosed fmj 6.5mm Carcano bullets that are fired at a velocity of more than 1,300 mph into cotton wadding evidently experience much more intense resistance while trying to pass through a few inches of wad than they do when passing through 36 inches of pine wood completely undamaged, as can be seen by watching the PBS NOVA program, "Cold Case JFK."

Evidently, when CE-399 passed through JFK's neck and JBC's upper torso and struck the radial bone in his wrist, it experienced less resistance overall than did CE-399, until, that is, CE-399 "kissed" said radial bone butt-end-first while yawing and/or tumbling.

I see you're again arguing that wound ballistics tests are worthless unless the test bullets exactly duplicate the angle and speed of the original missile and exactly duplicate the original target, which is just ridiculous and amateurish.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

According to Grok, ballistics tests are useful for the following purposes:

Ballistics tests are conducted for several key reasons:

1. Crime Scene Investigation: To match bullets or cartridge cases found at a crime scene to a specific firearm, aiding in forensic analysis and suspect identification.

2. Firearm Identification: To determine if a specific gun was used in a crime by analyzing ballistic evidence like bullet markings or casings.

3. Weapon Performance Evaluation: To assess the accuracy, reliability, and effectiveness of firearms and ammunition under various conditions.

4. Research and Development: To improve the design of firearms, ammunition, or protective gear like body armor by studying ballistic behavior.

5. Safety Testing: To evaluate potential risks, such as misfires, malfunctions, or excessive penetration, ensuring user safety.

6. Legal and Regulatory Compliance: To verify that firearms and ammunition meet legal standards and regulations for manufacturing or use.

7. Quality Control: For manufacturers to ensure firearms and ammunition meet consistent performance and safety standards before distribution.


My comment:

Note that "trying to determine if a high-velocity yawing/tumbling bullet can cause a certain kind of wound, and, if so, exactly what kind of deformation it would sustain" isn't mentioned.

Maybe because it would be a fool's errand to attempt to determine with exactitude any (much less all) of the multitudinous variables involved?

D'oh!