The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Tom Graves]

Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.

[John Mytton]

Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.

There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?



The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.

Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?



JohnM

[Michael T. Griffith]

Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.

This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:

-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.

-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).

-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?

-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.

-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.

-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.

-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.

 

[Tom Graves]

In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.

The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.

In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance.

What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?

Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?

If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?

Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?

No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.

Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?

[Tim Nickerson]

This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:

-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.

 In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets were fired into cotton wadding at near muzzle velocity of the rifle.

-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance.  See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).

In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists at near muzzle velocity of the rifle. Dr. Joseph Dolce was not the Army's leading wound ballistics expert. Nor did he conduct the WC's SBT test.

"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?

The bullet was not tumbling through JFK's neck. It began tumbling upon exiting.

-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.

Mr. FRAZIER - In each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. It is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. I could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. However, I can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when I first examined the shirt it was--it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made.

No metallic residue would be expected to be found around the exit hole.

-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.

-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.

You are falsely assuming that the bullet would have had to pass though the middle of the tie knot.

Mr. FRAZIER - When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button.
Mr. SPECTER - As you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right?
Mr. FRAZIER - If it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Your left side.
Mr. FRAZIER - The left side of my tie. There is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile?
Mr. FRAZIER - The nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. The fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection.
Mr. SPECTER - Is the nick consistent with an exiting path?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes.

-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/pdf/fackler.pdf

[Michael T. Griffith]

The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.

CE 399 didn't hit any bones in Connally because it was never in JFK. It never exited the shirt slits and could not have nicked the tie knot. Two Parkland medical staff confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits, which is why no metallic traces were found around slits and why they had no fabric missing. This is not to mention that we have known for years now that the back wound had no exit point.

I'm just trying to fathom how you rationalize in your own mind your refusal to deal with the evidence that on the night of the autopsy the autopsy doctors positively, absolutely established that the back wound had no exit point. Even when trying to bend the facts to suit the lone-gunman theory, Humes was initially unwilling to say the throat wound was an exit wound for the back wound--instead, in a draft of the autopsy report, he said it was an exit hole for a fragment from the head shot.

And, FYI, the magic bullet would have had to smash Connally's fifth rib bone--specifically, to completely destroy 5 inches of that bone before ever reaching the radius bone in the wrist.

What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?

Lattimer's SBT test and the AAT SBT test prove this is a non-issue. And, again, even bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more damage than CE 399.

Also, I take it you still haven't bothered to watch the documentary Reasonable Doubt?

Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?

I think you need to do some homework before you discuss the SBT on a public forum again. I suggest you start with John Hunt's superb article:

Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?

You didn't say this. You referred to after the bullet exits. But, other SBT believers have argued that the magic bullet caused the damage on the tip of T1, which would have caused the bullet to start tumbling or at least yawing substantially.

Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?

Again, see Hunt's article, for starters.

[Tom Graves]

[...]

Griffith,

You're so full of KGB-approved beans, I can smell you from here.

The following is an excerpt from a post by Bill Roe at Quora eight months ago:

Even conspiracy advocate Dr. Cyril Wecht testified before the HSCA that he agreed a bullet entered Kennedy’s back and exited his throat. This would reasonably have caused it to begin tumbling or yawing (skewed) as it exited JFK and next entered Connally's back, causing an oblong round rather than a round that would be expected from a stable bullet entering straighter. Connally's oblong back entry wound is only consistent with a tumbling or yawing skewed bullet. Some have suggested the bullet was shot from a different angle that could also cause a similarly shaped entry wound but that would obviously have resulted in a very different path through Connally. The tumbling bullet would be expected to shed significant velocity as it passed through Connally's body, striking a rib before exiting an inch below his right nipple. Push on your own rib. The ribs are comparatively flexible so would not necessarily cause damage to the much harder full metal jacketed Carcano bullet. Dr. Shaw who operated on Connally's chest even explained the soft rib in his testimony and how the bullet struck the rib at a shallow angle and no metal was found in Connally's chest to indicate damage to the bullet from hitting the rib. The slowing bullet then exited Connally and entered and passed through Connally's wrist breaking the wrist bone before exiting and entering Connally's thigh where it stopped after penetrating only about a half inch. The main deformation to the bullet is at its base which is consistent with the bullet having rotated/tumbled as it passed through Connally which would slow the bullet.

As stated previously, bone will break at velocities as low as 163 fps which is consistent with a bullet shedding significant velocity as it passed through Kennedy and Connally. Obviously, there was little energy left after exiting the wrist since it caused only a shallow wound and fell out “somewhere" since it was not recovered in the OR.

Doctor Shaw who was operating on Connally said at a news conference while Connally was still in the OR that he believed all of Connally's wounds were from a single missile. The bullet passing through Kennedy only encountered soft tissue so would lose minimal speed. The Carcano bullet’s metal jacket would require significant force to become deformed. The damage to the back end of the bullet suggest it likely struck the wrist while at an angle rather than straight on further allowing it to rotate rather than deform. Still the bullet is noticeably deformed at its base and so must have struck bone. Note that no other bullet was recovered from Connally's shallow thigh wound so must have fallen out “somewhere”.

[...]

All of the forensic pathologists for the HSCA including well-known Warren Commision critic Dr Cyril Wecht agreed that Kennedy was struck in the back by a bullet that exited his throat. Dr. Wecht continues to argue against the single bullet but offered no reasonable explanation for what became of the bullet after passing through Kennedy. It seems only logical that it would have had to strike Connally. Wecht misrepresents the relative positions of Kennedy and Connally in his presentations and also claims Connally was struck around frame 238 rather than 223 as we see in the Zapruder clip. Prior to the public availability of the Zapruder film, most people were only able to see still frames which can be more difficult to understand than the slow-motion clips we now are now able to better micro-analyze. I imagine many people remain unaware that a bullet can break bone at lower velocities and that a full metal jacket bullet will easily pass through tissue and deform minimally at those same lower velocities.

[...]

Dr. Shaw, who operated on Governor Connally's chest wounds, testified that about four inches of a layer from the end of Connally's rib bone had been "stripped away" and would have caused very little defection to the bullet. He said that although the bullet struck near the forward end of the rib, it caused a fracture at the opposite end near where it attaches to the spine at the other end of the rib from where the bullet struck. He stated the bullet followed the rib's "line of inclination" meaning it was a glancing parallel hit or shallow angle along the side of the bone in the direction of the rib bone that he said "stripped away" about 10 cm (four inches) of rib, rather than a steep angle direct hit. Such a glancing blow on what Dr. Shaw described as "spongy" (flexible] area would not necessarily be expected to cause minimal if any deformation to a full metal jacked bullet.

Relevant quotes:

Dr. SHAW - The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

He further explained how that portion of the rib that was stripped away is soft and “spongy" (flexible) suggesting it would not likely cause much deformation to a full metal jacketed (fmj) bullet which is designed with a hard metal layer that resists deformation.

Dr. SHAW - The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.

[Dan O'meara]

There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?



The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.

Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?



JohnM

"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."

This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?