Really good documentary on the "three casket entries" at Bethesda

[Royell Storing]

They aren't new evidence. They were new to Horne. He says that he then discovered them all online. The videos showing the black hearse were located at ABC News Video Source. The two still photos were located online and Horne says he acquired a license to use them; whoever owns the rights presumably knows the provenance of the photos.

The two still photos simply depict the Navy ambulance that delivered JFK's body in the Dallas casket, together with the Navy pickup in which the casket team followed the ambulance. Nice photos, but nothing new. The officer saluting in one photo and walking toward the camera in the other is Sorell Schwartz, who had appeared in a YouTube video before Horne located him. His recollections are inconvenient for Horne, so Horne trashes him.

Horne establishes (correctly, I believe) that the black hearse videos do not depict the hearse that delivered the shipping casket at 6:35 PM. They depict the Gawler's hearse that delivered the new burial casket much later in the evening (and departed with the damaged Dallas casket). The videos are thus of marginal relevance to anything.

Why Horne says he found these materials "electrifying" is a mystery to me, although perhaps as a gung-ho CTer he's more easily electrified than I am.

Horne says we will find no photos or videos of the black hearse delivering the shipping casket because this was an ultra-secret clandestine event. I say we will find no photos or videos because MDW's routine delivery of an empty shipping casket was a Big Nothing, a Non-Event.

   So you're saying You had already seen ALL of the image evidence that Horne included in his presentation? That Bethesda Morgue Dock along with the Bethesda Grounds itself is a mystery to almost everyone that has not been physically inside that place. I had previously seen a hand drawn sketch of the Morgue + Bench Seating but that is totally unreliable. You are permitting the messenger/Horne to poison your appraisal of the evidence he brought with him. I thought it was strange that any ambulance would be forced to back down a narrow alleyway to access that Morgue Dock. And then they had to load the coffin onto a scissors type lift and then Physically LIFT the coffin up onto the morgue dock. There was No Ramp, only Stairs leading up to the Morgue Dock. And from what we could see, the door leading into the Morgue was just that. A standard door/standard width. (And we know the problem they had getting the JFK Coffin inside AF1). This arcane access process makes me wonder if there was another way/regular way for an ambulance to access the Bethesda Morgue. The avenue of access we saw would consistently require at least 4 people to muscle a coffin inside the morgue. To me, this looked strange. Very strange. 

[Lance Payette]

So you're saying You had already seen ALL of the image evidence that Horne included in his presentation?

Negatory. It was as new to me as to Horne. I'm saying it was obviously out there, online, if anyone had cared to look. Surely some researchers were aware of all the materials.

That Bethesda Morgue Dock along with the Bethesda Grounds itself is a mystery to almost everyone that has not been physically inside that place.

Which is why I said and still say that Horne's documentary is excellent in that respect, as an orientation to Bethesda.

I had previously seen a hand drawn sketch of the Morgue + Bench Seating but that is totally unreliable. You are permitting the messenger/Horne to poison your appraisal of the evidence he brought with him. I thought it was strange that any ambulance would be forced to back down a narrow alleyway to access that Morgue Dock. And then they had to load the coffin onto a scissors type lift and then Physically LIFT the coffin up onto the morgue dock. There was No Ramp, only Stairs leading up to the Morgue Dock. And from what we could see, the door leading into the Morgue was just that. A standard door/standard width. (And we know the problem they had getting the JFK Coffin inside AF1). This arcane access process makes me wonder if there was another way/regular way for an ambulance to access the Bethesda Morgue. The avenue of access we saw would consistently require at least 4 people to muscle a coffin inside the morgue. To me, this looked strange. Very strange.

OK, it looked strange to you. It didn't look strange to me. Even Horne's most gung-ho witnesses didn't suggest there was anything strange or that there was some other access to the morgue. This was just business as usual at Bethesda. The team that included Schwartz in the pickup truck knew exactly where to go because that's what was done with bodies at Bethesda; the ambulance driver got lost because he was a Secret Service agent unfamiliar with Bethesda.

I have no problem at all with Horne's evidence, apart from the fact that he was less than candid about the Gawler's Call Sheet and Sorell Schwartz. I'm sure some of the other evidence was skewed toward the CT perspective, but overall the documentary was well-done and helpful.

The documentary is a sales job for the inherently silly body alteration theory. It didn't take Harold Weisberg or Little Old Me a great deal of thought or research to realize there was an alternative theory for the shipping casket that is approximately 1000X more plausible and evidence based. On top of which, the alternative theory does not have to explain how the body got off Air Force One with no one noticing, onto a mystery helicopter and into a mystery hearse, accompanied by mystery personnel - a rather critical aspect of the body alteration theory that Horne completely ignores. Whereas you insisted Horne's shipping casket tale blows the case wide open, I believe the alternative explanation pretty well blows Horne out of the water.

[Lance Payette]

For those who care - and you know who you are - the Bethesda morgue in which JFK was autopsied was the "new" morgue opened in early 1963. The drawing below shows the location of the "old" morgue, which was in a basement. I found this at the Ed Forum. One literally cannot believe the absurdities upon absurdities surrounding the body alteration theory. There were two autopsies, one in the old morgue and one in the new ... no, wait, one of the autopsies was at Walter Reed ... no, wait, one of the autopsies wasn't even JFK (what???). That anyone actually entertains this nonsense - and many people clearly do - is almost frightening. I mean, I have to drive on the highway with people who believe this stuff. What if my doctor or dentist does? EEK! I'm not sure I even want a plumber who says, "Yeah, I'm a body alteration guy. Lifton nailed it."

[Jarrett Smith]

Because I am a Serious and Dedicated Researcher, I have located and herewith offer the following:

Sorell Schwartz, the officer in the two ambulance photos, is not some doofus. He is a PhD and Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, Senior Pharmacology Advisor at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has had advisory appointments at the National Library of Medicine, the FDA, the EPA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the FTC, the U.S. House of Representatives, OSHA, the Department of Defense, the FBI and WHO.

Golly!

The first video is Professor Schwartz discussing medical matters that my fellow elderly researchers might find semi-interesting. If nothing else, it may help you assess whether Schwartz seems like the fumbling fool who can't accurately remember anything whom Horse describes. (He must be 85-86 in these videos.)

The second video is more pertinent. Beginning at 18:54, Schwartz discusses the evening of 11-22-63. It's pretty interesting. He describes Lifton's theories as "a lot of BS," which may explain Horne's efforts to trash him.

I tried listening to him, but after a few minutes he was slurring words and seemed confused.

[Jarrett Smith]

Excellent post, albeit not for the reasons you think. You illustrate the conspiracy mindset to the nth degree.

Because you are a CT zealot, anyone who does not immediately agree with you is, ipso facto, an equally closed-minded LN zealot. In actuality, I would be DELIGHTED to encounter a genuinely plausible, evidence-based conspiracy theory that caused me to say "Well, I'll be danged. Oswald didn't act alone." DELIGHTED, I tell you!

As with all CT zealots, you can't see the forest for the trees. You posit a conspiracy so clumsy and inept that, immediately after the assassination, the conspirators KNOW the body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will reveal their designated patsy wasn't the lone gunman. How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, did they allow this to occur?

Some of them, apparently, were right there at Parkland and in a position to make sure the Parkland doctors and local coroner never saw the revealing wounds and fragments. Who were they, and how did they arrange this? How could they be sure of success? How could they control what took place in Trauma Room 1 and thereafter? How could they be sure LBJ or Jackie wouldn't be agreeable to a Texas autopsy? How could they be sure the body would be transported to Bethesda rather than Walter Reed?

OK, the Bethesda medical team is standing by to do the necessary body alterations. When were they brought into the loop, and by whom? They ALL agreed to this without reservation? All of these folks risked EXECUTION for ... what?

OK, between Dallas and Bethesda the conspirators had to get the body into a shipping casket. Why - why add this layer of complexity? When and how was this done, unobserved by anyone except those connected with the conspiracy? Was there already a shipping casket on Air Force One, or did the surreptitious transfer occur at Andrews? Why not just take the Dallas casket into Bethesda and buy yourself 45 minutes with the excuse that the conspiratorial doctors were "getting things ready."

How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, were all the assorted non-conspirators allowed to observe the shenanigans at 6:35, 7:17 and 8:00? Why were Boyajian and Dennis told anything about JFK - why was not everyone connected with the 6:35 arrival told it was Lt. Fuzzy, who had just been killed in a car wreck (even if they had to kill Lt. Fuzzy as part of the plan)?

I'm just reacting off the top of my head. I haven't even thought through all the insane risks your scenario would entail.

As is always the case with CTers - ALWAYS the case, I repeat - you posit activities in which the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling, 40 IQ stooges at multiple critical points in your scenario, from Dealey Plaza to Bethesda. You cherry-pick evidence that even I will acknowledge is puzzling and weave it into a narrative that simply MAKES NO SENSE (unless, I repeat, the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling 40 IQ stooges who somehow found jobs in the Secret Service, FBI, military and White House).

It all makes sense to you because - wait for it - you are Exhibit A for the conspiracy-prone mindset.

Was Kennedy placed in another "decoy" casket? I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there. Was there surgery before the actual autopsy? I'd say possible, not a big conspiracy, but Bobby Kennedy thru Burkley could have requested the brain removed. We know he was sensitive to having it displayed, and who would tell him no? 

[Royell Storing]

For those who care - and you know who you are - the Bethesda morgue in which JFK was autopsied was the "new" morgue opened in early 1963. The drawing below shows the location of the "old" morgue, which was in a basement. I found this at the Ed Forum. One literally cannot believe the absurdities upon absurdities surrounding the body alteration theory. There were two autopsies, one in the old morgue and one in the new ... no, wait, one of the autopsies was at Walter Reed ... no, wait, one of the autopsies wasn't even JFK (what???). That anyone actually entertains this nonsense - and many people clearly do - is almost frightening. I mean, I have to drive on the highway with people who believe this stuff. What if my doctor or dentist does? EEK! I'm not sure I even want a plumber who says, "Yeah, I'm a body alteration guy. Lifton nailed it."

  That "New" Bethesda Morgue also included state-of-the-art audio/visual equipment. This is where Lt. Commander Pitzer enters the story.

[John Mytton]

I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there.

 

Agreed. JFK was already having a real bad day, imagine the horror of being killed twice!

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

Negatory. It was as new to me as to Horne. I'm saying it was obviously out there, online, if anyone had cared to look. Surely some researchers were aware of all the materials.

Which is why I said and still say that Horne's documentary is excellent in that respect, as an orientation to Bethesda.

OK, it looked strange to you. It didn't look strange to me. Even Horne's most gung-ho witnesses didn't suggest there was anything strange or that there was some other access to the morgue. This was just business as usual at Bethesda. The team that included Schwartz in the pickup truck knew exactly where to go because that's what was done with bodies at Bethesda; the ambulance driver got lost because he was a Secret Service agent unfamiliar with Bethesda.

I have no problem at all with Horne's evidence, apart from the fact that he was less than candid about the Gawler's Call Sheet and Sorell Schwartz. I'm sure some of the other evidence was skewed toward the CT perspective, but overall the documentary was well-done and helpful.

The documentary is a sales job for the inherently silly body alteration theory. It didn't take Harold Weisberg or Little Old Me a great deal of thought or research to realize there was an alternative theory for the shipping casket that is approximately 1000X more plausible and evidence based. On top of which, the alternative theory does not have to explain how the body got off Air Force One with no one noticing, onto a mystery helicopter and into a mystery hearse, accompanied by mystery personnel - a rather critical aspect of the body alteration theory that Horne completely ignores. Whereas you insisted Horne's shipping casket tale blows the case wide open, I believe the alternative explanation pretty well blows Horne out of the water.

   Just because something might be "on line" does not mean it is known. Anymore than a buried treasure is known. Hence the need for a "treasure map" to find it. Those autopsy dock photos are very important. And remember that the story goes that when the honor guard inside the pickup truck found the ambulance, it was completely empty. No casket, nobody even attending to the vehicle. And Prof Schwartz added that the Ambulance Hood Was COLD. That vehicle had been sitting there a good while. This empty/stone cold "ambulance" could have been part of the decoy too. Tie these guys up to further prevent their interrupting the arrival of the empty casket elsewhere back there. I am still unsure how they might even get that casket inside the morgue. The door into the morgue that we see is a standard door/standard width. I have a hunch these guys in the pickup truck were delayed 5 ways to Sunday.