Really good documentary on the "three casket entries" at Bethesda

[Lance Payette]

Regardless of what I may think of David Lifton, Doug Horne and the whole "body alteration" thing, I found this brand-new documentary by Horne to be excellent, strictly in terms of a well-done documentary that clearly explains the issues surrounding the arrival(s) of JFK's body at Bethesda. I watched the entire two hours without being bored for a moment. "Body alteration" as the explanation strikes me as preposterous, but the events and the seemingly plausible recollections of them are truly puzzling. Since it appears there was in fact a decoy Navy ambulance, the confusion about two supposed entries of the Dallas coffin at 7:17 PM and 8 PM may be understandable. The 6:35 PM shipping casket in a black hearse is understandable if it had nothing to do with JFK, but if so the Boyajian report and several seemingly sincere peoples' recollections would have to be very wrong.

Reminds me of Roswell. Aliens traveling across the universe only to crash in New Mexico thunderstorms strikes me as inherently preposterous, but something very strange clearly happened in 1947.

[Royell Storing]

  Thanks for posting that extremely new Doug Horne presentation. The new photos of the different ambulances at the Bethesda Morgue show that there is more JFK Assassination evidence out there. Horne used a lot of the Lifton evidence, but Horne like Lifton is still unable to address specifically WHEN/WHERE the JFK Body was removed from the ceremonial casket and then placed inside the cheap shipping casket. This has been "The $64,000 Question" for decades.

[Lance Payette]

  Thanks for posting that extremely new Doug Horne presentation. The new photos of the different ambulances at the Bethesda Morgue show that there is more JFK Assassination evidence out there. Horne used a lot of the Lifton evidence, but Horne like Lifton is still unable to address specifically WHEN/WHERE the JFK Body was removed from the ceremonial casket and then placed inside the cheap shipping casket. This has been "The $64,000 Question" for decades.

Even if we are inclined to think JFK's body wasn't placed in a shipping casket, it's bizarre that there isn't a clear, unequivocal explanation of who was in the shipping casket and why those who insisted it was JFK had this belief. Alternatively, if he was placed in a shipping casket for transport/handling purposes, why isn't there a clear, unequivocal explanation of that. These genuine mysteries do fuel endless speculation.

I believe that a BIG part of the problem, on 11-22 and long after (including at the WC) was the over-concern about "protecting" the Kennedy family and JFK's image at the expense of historical truth. Given all that we now know about Joe Sr., JFK and Jackie, the fantasy was scarcely worth protecting. As far as the JFKA is concerned, they should have taken Jackie and Bobby out of the loop immediately.

[Michael T. Griffith]

The case for the illicit early arrival of the body to Bethesda and for pre-autopsy surgery is compelling.

Lifton cracked this case wide open when he found strong evidence that the body was helicoptered to Bethesda and that it arrived well before the ceremonial casket arrived with Jackie. Doug Horne has solidified Lifton's case on this point. The fact that the body arrived in a military shipping casket, and not in the ceremonial casket, is confirmed by a number of sources.

Some of the ARRB disclosures relate to this case. Mortician Tom Robinson reported that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the official autopsy began and that the topside skull damage seen in the autopsy materials was done by Humes and Boswell, proving that Humes and Boswell were putting on a deceptive act during the autopsy when Humes said there had apparently been surgery to the head and when Boswell asked out-loud if anyone knew if the Parkland doctors had operated on the head.

The new photographic evidence presented by Horne is further proof that the body was in the morgue before the official arrival of the ceremonial casket with Jackie.

There is no innocent explanation for this manipulation and trickery.

[Lance Payette]

The case for the illicit early arrival of the body to Bethesda and for pre-autopsy surgery is compelling.

Lifton cracked this case wide open when he found strong evidence that the body was helicoptered to Bethesda and that it arrived well before the ceremonial casket arrived with Jackie. Doug Horne has solidified Lifton's case on this point. The fact that body arrived in a military shipping casket, and not in the ceremonial casket, is confirmed by a number of sources.

Some of the ARRB disclosures relate to this case. Mortician Tom Robinson reported that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the official autopsy began and that the topside skull damage seen in the autopsy materials was done by Humes and Boswell, proving that Humes and Boswell were putting on a deceptive act during the autopsy when Humes said there had apparently been surgery to the head and when Boswell asked out-loud if anyone knew if the Parkland doctors had operated on the head.

The new photographic evidence presented by Horne is further proof that the body was in the morgue before the official arrival of the ceremonial casket with Jackie.

There is no innocent explanation for this manipulation and trickery.

Michael, you do have a propensity to use terms like "know" and "proof" where they don't really fit. Yes, there is some weird stuff that demands an explanation (one we will surely never have). Having watched and enjoyed Horne's presentation, I'm not confident it proves anything. I don't find it inconceivable that (1) the 6:35 PM casket entry had nothing to do with JFK or (2) at some point JFK's body actually was placed in a shipping casket for convenience but the charade of the body being in the more elaborate casket was maintained for Jackie's benefit. I do find it pretty much inconceivable that, immediately after the assassination, ANYONE was thinking in terms of "The body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will scream conspiracy. We gotta do something about that, pronto." If this were true, at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington would have to have been in on the scam, and another 50 would have had to have been provided with explanations that made sense to them. On top of which, the 6:35 PM shipping casket entry would have been observed by NOBODY. The conspiratorial explanation is just inherently preposterous. Weird stuff that demands an explanation, yes. Proof of a body-alteration conspiracy, no.

[Sean Kneringer]

Comments disabled. That's all you need to know.

[Royell Storing]

Michael, you do have a propensity to use terms like "know" and "proof" where they don't really fit. Yes, there is some weird stuff that demands an explanation (one we will surely never have). Having watched and enjoyed Horne's presentation, I'm not confident it proves anything. I don't find it inconceivable that (1) the 6:35 PM casket entry had nothing to do with JFK or (2) at some point JFK's body actually was placed in a shipping casket for convenience but the charade of the body being in the more elaborate casket was maintained for Jackie's benefit. I do find it pretty much inconceivable that, immediately after the assassination, ANYONE was thinking in terms of "The body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will scream conspiracy. We gotta do something about that, pronto." If this were true, at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington would have to have been in on the scam, and another 50 would have had to have been provided with explanations that made sense to them. On top of which, the 6:35 PM shipping casket entry would have been observed by NOBODY. The conspiratorial explanation is just inherently preposterous. Weird stuff that demands an explanation, yes. Proof of a body-alteration conspiracy, no.

   (2) "At some point JFK's body was actually placed in a Shipping Casket for CONVENIENCE....".  Are you serious? The only thing "convenient" about shifting JFK's body into a shipping casket would be to clandestinely be able to move it around. Personnel at Parkland Hospital verify cleaning JFK's body, wrapping it in sheets, and then placing it inside the elaborate ceremonial casket. Where between Parkland Hospital and Andrews Air Force Base was the JFK Body moved from that elaborate ceremonial casket to the shipping casket? Answering that question breaks the case wide open. There is No Legit Reason for moving the body of JFK to a shipping casket. None.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Michael, you do have a propensity to use terms like "know" and "proof" where they don't really fit.

No, I only use them when they fit the facts. The things I've described that we "know" are things that are documented in black and white in the ARRB materials.

Yes, there is some weird stuff that demands an explanation (one we will surely never have). Having watched and enjoyed Horne's presentation, I'm not confident it proves anything.

Then perhaps you are not inclined to follow the evidence where it leads when it leads to conclusions that you find too disturbing. I don't know how you could view the evidence that Horne presents and then say you don't think it proves anything. I think you mind is just locked shut against conspiracy.

I don't find it inconceivable that (1) the 6:35 PM casket entry had nothing to do with JFK

How can that be? The Marine Corps NCO who headed the security detail that was tasked to guard JFK's body, SGT Boyajian, wrote in his 11/26/63 report that the casket with the body arrived at 6:35 PM, a fact that he confirmed when interviewed by the ARRB, and a fact that Dennis David also confirmed. 

or (2) at some point JFK's body actually was placed in a shipping casket for convenience but the charade of the body being in the more elaborate casket was maintained for Jackie's benefit.

Oh, come on. This makes no sense. When Lifton's book came out, the lone-gunman camp and government officials who were involved in the handling of the body swore up and down that the body never left the ceremonial casket until it was removed in the morgue minutes before the autopsy began. Even after the ARRB disclosures, this is still the position of nearly all WC defenders.

There would have been no "convenience" in moving the body into a shipping casket. How about the body bag that the body was zipped into in the shipping casket? What would have been "convenient" about putting the body in a body bag when it had already wrapped in sheets in Dallas?

I do find it pretty much inconceivable that, immediately after the assassination, ANYONE was thinking in terms of "The body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will scream conspiracy. We gotta do something about that, pronto."

Just HUH??? This would have been the natural, logical, sensible reaction of the plotters in response to finding out that things had not gone according to plan in Dallas. Their first, most urgent objective would have been to get the body out of the Dallas casket and into the hands of military doctors who could try to remove as much damning evidence as possible before the official autopsy began, military doctors who were under orders, who were told this was a matter of national security, and who were threatened with court martial if they talked.

If this were true, at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington would have to have been in on the scam, and another 50 would have had to have been provided with explanations that made sense to them.

Where do you get this? Why would "at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington" have had to be in on the scam? This is not what happened. Only a small number of people knew what was going on with the body. The others only saw isolated incidents and had no idea how what they saw related to anything else.

You seem to be forgetting, or perhaps don't know, that every witness who had anything to do with the autopsy, even if they did not see the autopsy, were forced to sign non-disclosure agreements that threatened court martial if violated. Have you not read the ARRB materials?

On top of which, the 6:35 PM shipping casket entry would have been observed by NOBODY. The conspiratorial explanation is just inherently preposterous.

That is just utter nonsense. How in the devil would the 6:35 arrival have been "observed by nobody"? What about the Marine Corps security detail, headed by SGT Boyajian? It was their job to guard the body. They were there when the casket was brought to the morgue's rear landing area at 6:35, and Boyajian reported this, in writing, just three days later and also confirmed it when interviewed by the ARRB.

Weird stuff that demands an explanation, yes. Proof of a body-alteration conspiracy, no.

I suspect that even if a death-bed recording of Humes admitting to the body's early arrival and to pre-autopsy surgery surfaced, you would say he must have been delusional from pain and medication and that his admission was worthless.

How do you explain mortician Tom Robinson's testimony that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the autopsy began and that the topside damage to the head was made by Humes and Boswell? How do you explain Humes and Boswell's charade of saying there appeared to have been surgery to the head before they got the body?