Really good documentary on the "three casket entries" at Bethesda

[Royell Storing]

Yep, that summarizes the main problem dealing with them, with any conspiracist (this, 9/11, whatever). We see it with this casket claim, with the claims of alteration of the Zapruder film, with the Tippit shooting, the autopsy, the Mexico City visit (my favorite).

The problem is that it takes 30 seconds to make a conspiracy claim and then 30 minutes to fix it. As we see here. It's hard to "unring" the conspiracy bell especially with the JFK assassination and particularly during moments when a sort of conspiracy fever is prevalent (e.g., during the Watergate/Vietnam period or now). We just saw this again with the news reports about Oswald in New Orleans. The corrections are always chasing the errors.

And yes, I know there are conspiracies and I know governments lie. Could conspiracists please stop with these responses?

    Whatever you think about multiple caskets, don't you believe that these NEW Photos of the ambulance/pickup truck/morgue loading dock area are valuable in this unsolved murder case? These images are clear enough to attach names to faces which also permits Time Stamping. Those photos alone are worth watching this Horne presentation. It also proves that there is NEW JFK Assassination Evidence out there. It would be extremely valuable to Know what photographer took those photos. This is a currently unknown Eyewitness as to who/what was going on in the Bethesda morgue loading dock area.

[Lance Payette]

    Whatever you think about multiple caskets, don't you believe that these NEW Photos of the ambulance/pickup truck/morgue loading dock area are valuable in this unsolved murder case? These images are clear enough to attach names to faces which also permits Time Stamping. Those photos alone are worth watching this Horne presentation. It also proves that there is NEW JFK Assassination Evidence out there. It would be extremely valuable to Know what photographer took those photos. This is a currently unknown Eyewitness as to who/what was going on in the Bethesda morgue loading dock area.

They aren't new evidence. They were new to Horne. He says that he then discovered them all online. The videos showing the black hearse were located at ABC News Video Source. The two still photos were located online and Horne says he acquired a license to use them; whoever owns the rights presumably knows the provenance of the photos.

The two still photos simply depict the Navy ambulance that delivered JFK's body in the Dallas casket, together with the Navy pickup in which the casket team followed the ambulance. Nice photos, but nothing new. The officer saluting in one photo and walking toward the camera in the other is Sorell Schwartz, who had appeared in a YouTube video before Horne located him. His recollections are inconvenient for Horne, so Horne trashes him.

Horne establishes (correctly, I believe) that the black hearse videos do not depict the hearse that delivered the shipping casket at 6:35 PM. They depict the Gawler's hearse that delivered the new burial casket much later in the evening (and departed with the damaged Dallas casket). The videos are thus of marginal relevance to anything.

Why Horne says he found these materials "electrifying" is a mystery to me, although perhaps as a gung-ho CTer he's more easily electrified than I am.

Horne says we will find no photos or videos of the black hearse delivering the shipping casket because this was an ultra-secret clandestine event. I say we will find no photos or videos because MDW's routine delivery of an empty shipping casket was a Big Nothing, a Non-Event.

[Lance Payette]

Because I am a Serious and Dedicated Researcher, I have located and herewith offer the following:

Sorell Schwartz, the officer in the two ambulance photos, is not some doofus. He is a PhD and Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, Senior Pharmacology Advisor at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has had advisory appointments at the National Library of Medicine, the FDA, the EPA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the FTC, the U.S. House of Representatives, OSHA, the Department of Defense, the FBI and WHO.

Golly!

The first video is Professor Schwartz discussing medical matters that my fellow elderly researchers might find semi-interesting. If nothing else, it may help you assess whether Schwartz seems like the fumbling fool who can't accurately remember anything whom Horse describes. (He must be 85-86 in these videos.)

The second video is more pertinent. Beginning at 18:54, Schwartz discusses the evening of 11-22-63. It's pretty interesting. He describes Lifton's theories as "a lot of BS," which may explain Horne's efforts to trash him.

[Royell Storing]

They aren't new evidence. They were new to Horne. He says that he then discovered them all online. The videos showing the black hearse were located at ABC News Video Source. The two still photos were located online and Horne says he acquired a license to use them; whoever owns the rights presumably knows the provenance of the photos.

The two still photos simply depict the Navy ambulance that delivered JFK's body in the Dallas casket, together with the Navy pickup in which the casket team followed the ambulance. Nice photos, but nothing new. The officer saluting in one photo and walking toward the camera in the other is Sorell Schwartz, who had appeared in a YouTube video before Horne located him. His recollections are inconvenient for Horne, so Horne trashes him.

Horne establishes (correctly, I believe) that the black hearse videos do not depict the hearse that delivered the shipping casket at 6:35 PM. They depict the Gawler's hearse that delivered the new burial casket much later in the evening (and departed with the damaged Dallas casket). The videos are thus of marginal relevance to anything.

Why Horne says he found these materials "electrifying" is a mystery to me, although perhaps as a gung-ho CTer he's more easily electrified than I am.

Horne says we will find no photos or videos of the black hearse delivering the shipping casket because this was an ultra-secret clandestine event. I say we will find no photos or videos because MDW's routine delivery of an empty shipping casket was a Big Nothing, a Non-Event.

   So you're saying You had already seen ALL of the image evidence that Horne included in his presentation? That Bethesda Morgue Dock along with the Bethesda Grounds itself is a mystery to almost everyone that has not been physically inside that place. I had previously seen a hand drawn sketch of the Morgue + Bench Seating but that is totally unreliable. You are permitting the messenger/Horne to poison your appraisal of the evidence he brought with him. I thought it was strange that any ambulance would be forced to back down a narrow alleyway to access that Morgue Dock. And then they had to load the coffin onto a scissors type lift and then Physically LIFT the coffin up onto the morgue dock. There was No Ramp, only Stairs leading up to the Morgue Dock. And from what we could see, the door leading into the Morgue was just that. A standard door/standard width. (And we know the problem they had getting the JFK Coffin inside AF1). This arcane access process makes me wonder if there was another way/regular way for an ambulance to access the Bethesda Morgue. The avenue of access we saw would consistently require at least 4 people to muscle a coffin inside the morgue. To me, this looked strange. Very strange. 

[Lance Payette]

So you're saying You had already seen ALL of the image evidence that Horne included in his presentation?

Negatory. It was as new to me as to Horne. I'm saying it was obviously out there, online, if anyone had cared to look. Surely some researchers were aware of all the materials.

That Bethesda Morgue Dock along with the Bethesda Grounds itself is a mystery to almost everyone that has not been physically inside that place.

Which is why I said and still say that Horne's documentary is excellent in that respect, as an orientation to Bethesda.

I had previously seen a hand drawn sketch of the Morgue + Bench Seating but that is totally unreliable. You are permitting the messenger/Horne to poison your appraisal of the evidence he brought with him. I thought it was strange that any ambulance would be forced to back down a narrow alleyway to access that Morgue Dock. And then they had to load the coffin onto a scissors type lift and then Physically LIFT the coffin up onto the morgue dock. There was No Ramp, only Stairs leading up to the Morgue Dock. And from what we could see, the door leading into the Morgue was just that. A standard door/standard width. (And we know the problem they had getting the JFK Coffin inside AF1). This arcane access process makes me wonder if there was another way/regular way for an ambulance to access the Bethesda Morgue. The avenue of access we saw would consistently require at least 4 people to muscle a coffin inside the morgue. To me, this looked strange. Very strange.

OK, it looked strange to you. It didn't look strange to me. Even Horne's most gung-ho witnesses didn't suggest there was anything strange or that there was some other access to the morgue. This was just business as usual at Bethesda. The team that included Schwartz in the pickup truck knew exactly where to go because that's what was done with bodies at Bethesda; the ambulance driver got lost because he was a Secret Service agent unfamiliar with Bethesda.

I have no problem at all with Horne's evidence, apart from the fact that he was less than candid about the Gawler's Call Sheet and Sorell Schwartz. I'm sure some of the other evidence was skewed toward the CT perspective, but overall the documentary was well-done and helpful.

The documentary is a sales job for the inherently silly body alteration theory. It didn't take Harold Weisberg or Little Old Me a great deal of thought or research to realize there was an alternative theory for the shipping casket that is approximately 1000X more plausible and evidence based. On top of which, the alternative theory does not have to explain how the body got off Air Force One with no one noticing, onto a mystery helicopter and into a mystery hearse, accompanied by mystery personnel - a rather critical aspect of the body alteration theory that Horne completely ignores. Whereas you insisted Horne's shipping casket tale blows the case wide open, I believe the alternative explanation pretty well blows Horne out of the water.

[Lance Payette]

For those who care - and you know who you are - the Bethesda morgue in which JFK was autopsied was the "new" morgue opened in early 1963. The drawing below shows the location of the "old" morgue, which was in a basement. I found this at the Ed Forum. One literally cannot believe the absurdities upon absurdities surrounding the body alteration theory. There were two autopsies, one in the old morgue and one in the new ... no, wait, one of the autopsies was at Walter Reed ... no, wait, one of the autopsies wasn't even JFK (what???). That anyone actually entertains this nonsense - and many people clearly do - is almost frightening. I mean, I have to drive on the highway with people who believe this stuff. What if my doctor or dentist does? EEK! I'm not sure I even want a plumber who says, "Yeah, I'm a body alteration guy. Lifton nailed it."

[Jarrett Smith]

Because I am a Serious and Dedicated Researcher, I have located and herewith offer the following:

Sorell Schwartz, the officer in the two ambulance photos, is not some doofus. He is a PhD and Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, Senior Pharmacology Advisor at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has had advisory appointments at the National Library of Medicine, the FDA, the EPA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the FTC, the U.S. House of Representatives, OSHA, the Department of Defense, the FBI and WHO.

Golly!

The first video is Professor Schwartz discussing medical matters that my fellow elderly researchers might find semi-interesting. If nothing else, it may help you assess whether Schwartz seems like the fumbling fool who can't accurately remember anything whom Horse describes. (He must be 85-86 in these videos.)

The second video is more pertinent. Beginning at 18:54, Schwartz discusses the evening of 11-22-63. It's pretty interesting. He describes Lifton's theories as "a lot of BS," which may explain Horne's efforts to trash him.

I tried listening to him, but after a few minutes he was slurring words and seemed confused.