Really good documentary on the "three casket entries" at Bethesda

[Jarrett Smith]

Excellent post, albeit not for the reasons you think. You illustrate the conspiracy mindset to the nth degree.

Because you are a CT zealot, anyone who does not immediately agree with you is, ipso facto, an equally closed-minded LN zealot. In actuality, I would be DELIGHTED to encounter a genuinely plausible, evidence-based conspiracy theory that caused me to say "Well, I'll be danged. Oswald didn't act alone." DELIGHTED, I tell you!

As with all CT zealots, you can't see the forest for the trees. You posit a conspiracy so clumsy and inept that, immediately after the assassination, the conspirators KNOW the body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will reveal their designated patsy wasn't the lone gunman. How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, did they allow this to occur?

Some of them, apparently, were right there at Parkland and in a position to make sure the Parkland doctors and local coroner never saw the revealing wounds and fragments. Who were they, and how did they arrange this? How could they be sure of success? How could they control what took place in Trauma Room 1 and thereafter? How could they be sure LBJ or Jackie wouldn't be agreeable to a Texas autopsy? How could they be sure the body would be transported to Bethesda rather than Walter Reed?

OK, the Bethesda medical team is standing by to do the necessary body alterations. When were they brought into the loop, and by whom? They ALL agreed to this without reservation? All of these folks risked EXECUTION for ... what?

OK, between Dallas and Bethesda the conspirators had to get the body into a shipping casket. Why - why add this layer of complexity? When and how was this done, unobserved by anyone except those connected with the conspiracy? Was there already a shipping casket on Air Force One, or did the surreptitious transfer occur at Andrews? Why not just take the Dallas casket into Bethesda and buy yourself 45 minutes with the excuse that the conspiratorial doctors were "getting things ready."

How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, were all the assorted non-conspirators allowed to observe the shenanigans at 6:35, 7:17 and 8:00? Why were Boyajian and Dennis told anything about JFK - why was not everyone connected with the 6:35 arrival told it was Lt. Fuzzy, who had just been killed in a car wreck (even if they had to kill Lt. Fuzzy as part of the plan)?

I'm just reacting off the top of my head. I haven't even thought through all the insane risks your scenario would entail.

As is always the case with CTers - ALWAYS the case, I repeat - you posit activities in which the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling, 40 IQ stooges at multiple critical points in your scenario, from Dealey Plaza to Bethesda. You cherry-pick evidence that even I will acknowledge is puzzling and weave it into a narrative that simply MAKES NO SENSE (unless, I repeat, the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling 40 IQ stooges who somehow found jobs in the Secret Service, FBI, military and White House).

It all makes sense to you because - wait for it - you are Exhibit A for the conspiracy-prone mindset.

Was Kennedy placed in another "decoy" casket? I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there. Was there surgery before the actual autopsy? I'd say possible, not a big conspiracy, but Bobby Kennedy thru Burkley could have requested the brain removed. We know he was sensitive to having it displayed, and who would tell him no? 

[Royell Storing]

For those who care - and you know who you are - the Bethesda morgue in which JFK was autopsied was the "new" morgue opened in early 1963. The drawing below shows the location of the "old" morgue, which was in a basement. I found this at the Ed Forum. One literally cannot believe the absurdities upon absurdities surrounding the body alteration theory. There were two autopsies, one in the old morgue and one in the new ... no, wait, one of the autopsies was at Walter Reed ... no, wait, one of the autopsies wasn't even JFK (what???). That anyone actually entertains this nonsense - and many people clearly do - is almost frightening. I mean, I have to drive on the highway with people who believe this stuff. What if my doctor or dentist does? EEK! I'm not sure I even want a plumber who says, "Yeah, I'm a body alteration guy. Lifton nailed it."

  That "New" Bethesda Morgue also included state-of-the-art audio/visual equipment. This is where Lt. Commander Pitzer enters the story.

[John Mytton]

I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there.

 

Agreed. JFK was already having a real bad day, imagine the horror of being killed twice!

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

Negatory. It was as new to me as to Horne. I'm saying it was obviously out there, online, if anyone had cared to look. Surely some researchers were aware of all the materials.

Which is why I said and still say that Horne's documentary is excellent in that respect, as an orientation to Bethesda.

OK, it looked strange to you. It didn't look strange to me. Even Horne's most gung-ho witnesses didn't suggest there was anything strange or that there was some other access to the morgue. This was just business as usual at Bethesda. The team that included Schwartz in the pickup truck knew exactly where to go because that's what was done with bodies at Bethesda; the ambulance driver got lost because he was a Secret Service agent unfamiliar with Bethesda.

I have no problem at all with Horne's evidence, apart from the fact that he was less than candid about the Gawler's Call Sheet and Sorell Schwartz. I'm sure some of the other evidence was skewed toward the CT perspective, but overall the documentary was well-done and helpful.

The documentary is a sales job for the inherently silly body alteration theory. It didn't take Harold Weisberg or Little Old Me a great deal of thought or research to realize there was an alternative theory for the shipping casket that is approximately 1000X more plausible and evidence based. On top of which, the alternative theory does not have to explain how the body got off Air Force One with no one noticing, onto a mystery helicopter and into a mystery hearse, accompanied by mystery personnel - a rather critical aspect of the body alteration theory that Horne completely ignores. Whereas you insisted Horne's shipping casket tale blows the case wide open, I believe the alternative explanation pretty well blows Horne out of the water.

   Just because something might be "on line" does not mean it is known. Anymore than a buried treasure is known. Hence the need for a "treasure map" to find it. Those autopsy dock photos are very important. And remember that the story goes that when the honor guard inside the pickup truck found the ambulance, it was completely empty. No casket, nobody even attending to the vehicle. And Prof Schwartz added that the Ambulance Hood Was COLD. That vehicle had been sitting there a good while. This empty/stone cold "ambulance" could have been part of the decoy too. Tie these guys up to further prevent their interrupting the arrival of the empty casket elsewhere back there. I am still unsure how they might even get that casket inside the morgue. The door into the morgue that we see is a standard door/standard width. I have a hunch these guys in the pickup truck were delayed 5 ways to Sunday.

[Lance Payette]

Holy cow, I had thought the graphic of the new and old Bethesda morgues was from an old Ed Forum thread. No, it's from a current, active one. From the discussion, this is the sort of thing body alteration folks say with a straight face:

"What I think happened at the old morgue in Bldg 2 was the removal of the second brain, which was 'prepared' that afternoon to show a shot from the rear to support the lone assassin (Oswald) fake story. I think that brain was removed in Bldg 2 old morgue, and transported to the new morgue in Bldg 8, and placed inside the skull of JFK, and it later just 'fell out' into Humes hand without the need for a craniotomy using saw and scalpels. JFKs brain had been prior removed during the period after 6:35."

WHAT???

The conspiracy was so utterly inept that this level of cover-up was required? Why not just plan a sane conspiracy from the get-go?

[Lance Payette]

I tried listening to him, but after a few minutes he was slurring words and seemed confused.

Hardly. He's 86 years old. His recollections of the night of 11-22 are remarkably clear and coherent.

[Lance Payette]

Was Kennedy placed in another "decoy" casket? I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there. Was there surgery before the actual autopsy? I'd say possible, not a big conspiracy, but Bobby Kennedy thru Burkley could have requested the brain removed. We know he was sensitive to having it displayed, and who would tell him no?

The security concern related to press coverage and sensitivity toward the Kennedy family. Hence, a decoy ambulance might make sense. There was no concern about JFK's body, which was rather secure inside the massive Dallas casket. Placing JFK's body in a decoy casket would make precisely zero sense. Who would have told Bobby and JFK no if they had requested the removal of the brain before the official autopsy? Oh, a WHOLE LOT of people, I would imagine. I would also imagine that request would not have remained unknown for 60+ years. It has remained unknown because it's imaginary.