Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?  (Read 38366 times)

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3387
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2025, 01:47:15 AM »
Advertisement

    There are Knott Labs across the USA. Their Forensic SCIENCE bullet tracing EVIDENCE is routinely admitted into courts across this country. "Googling" is Not an "end all be all". They take you where They want you to go.  Solely relying on Google is like believing something simply because it is on the Internet. 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2025, 01:47:15 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 973
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2025, 01:52:55 AM »
    There are Knott Labs across the USA. Their Forensic SCIENCE bullet tracing EVIDENCE is routinely admitted into courts across this country. "Googling" is Not an "end all be all". They take you where They want you to go.  Solely relying on Google is like believing something simply because it is on the Internet.
In other words, you have no idea how much "bullet tracing" they've done.



Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1132
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2025, 03:07:42 AM »
  So when do they start overturning the 1,000's of cases that courts have permitted the Knott Lab Forensic SCIENCE bullet tracing evidence to be admitted? That's Not happening. You guys are doing what you do best. Jabbering.  Knott Lab uses SCIENCE.

Maybe I am missing something. There is no doubt you clearly understand what is shown in the video. Help all of us to be as smart as you are. It would be great if you could just walk all of us through it. This should be really easy for you to explain for all to know.

It seems simple enough, in an attempt to explain SBT, the green line clearly represents the bullet from the first shot passing through JFK’s back/neck. It is then shown ending in JBC’s back, but according to Knotts Lab it just disappears. What happened to that bullet, where did that bullet go?  Ice bullet? A true Magic Bullet?

The red line is representing the wounds through JBC’s body and is indicating a source other than the TSBD. From where did that bullet originate? They have a computer and thousands of reference points, why did they not just extend the line and solve the mystery?

It is really hard to envision a vanishing bullet and a shot from nowhere. Help us Royell to understand as you do.

 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2025, 03:07:42 AM »


Offline John Mytton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4894
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #115 on: June 04, 2025, 03:49:17 AM »
    There are Knott Labs across the USA. Their Forensic SCIENCE bullet tracing EVIDENCE is routinely admitted into courts across this country.

Let's not lose track of the actual purpose of what Knott Laboratory actually submits into courts, they basically compose what amounts to a video game graphic and this three dimensional representation "helps" the jury visualize what happened, the Knott Labs visuals lack the precision to be accepted as conclusive proof, hence their explanation on their web page,   

Forensic Visualization
Forensic visualization aids attorneys through scientifically accurate reconstructions of incidents or accidents.
Recent consumer behavior studies have found that, “Viewers retain 95% of a message when they watch it in a video compared to just 10% when reading it in text.” Our visualizations helps investigators and attorneys convey the complexities of a case in a format that jurors can easily and quickly comprehend.

https://knottlab.com/services/forensic-visualization/

And again because it's so important, Knott Labs computer modelling lacks the desired precision for conclusive proof, and especially since the position of the Limo and the occupants has information derived from Zapruder's fuzzy two dimensional film frame which shows no depth and therefore the "Z" axis placement has to be estimated. And don't forget John Orr a well known conspiracist commissioned this work, so Knott Lab clearly had a vested interest in producing results to satisfy their paying client.

Knott Lab's three dimensional approximation based on a two dimensional image.





As the Limo entered Houston, note Connally's position.



JohnM

Offline John Mytton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4894
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2025, 04:13:21 AM »
Michael Griffith and other conspiracy fantasists (yes, there are sensible ones) rejected the Itek study, the Myers recreation of the shooting, the analysis of the Zapruder film, the backyard photos and the x-rays. All were dismissed as meaningless and worthless.

Now he's lecturing people on believing the "science"?

Mr. Griffith believes that Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Oswald conspired to assassinate the president. They came up with the plan at a gathering while complete strangers (!?) listened to them. They then took that plan to the CIA who carried it out. Yes they did. The plan that was overheard by strangers. However he also believes in John Newman's work. Newman says the Pentagon, chiefly Lemnitzer and Lansdale, was behind the assassination but not the CIA. But Mr. Griffith said he believes the Garrison claim about the CIA. So which is it? The CIA or military? Does he know the difference? He also believes, as I mentioned above, that the Zapruder film was faked, the backyard photos faked, the x-rays faked and that all of this fakery and more has been covered up. He says that "disinformation agents" from the government, apparently the CIA but who knows?, are actively covering up what happened. Right now. On the internet. And in the media. Yes, he believes all of this. And more..

So how many people does he say did all of this? Faked all of this? Including those today, the disinformation agents? He says, "About twenty to thirty."

And one more: He says Sirhan Sirhan was "hypno-programmed" (whatever that is) to shoot RFK.

If the phrase "crackpot beliefs" comes to mind then welcome to the club.

Quote
He also believes, as I mentioned above, that the Zapruder film was faked,

Yes, he believes that sections of the Zapruder film have been sped up, frames removed and outright image alteration, yet he hypocritically claims that other sections of the Zapruder film are legitimate and uses them as conspiratorial proof!

As you say, you can't make this up! :D

JohnM

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2025, 04:13:21 AM »


Offline John Mytton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4894
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2025, 05:06:52 AM »
In other words, you have no idea how much "bullet tracing" they've done.

I only found 1 example on Knott Lab's web page which dates back to 1996 but all they've done here is model a car and traced bullets through glass into seats, upholstery and through the opposite windows. Just a typical forensic analysis which has been done over the last century and nothing particularly ground breaking.

Denver Police Shooting
With the use of modern technology, Knott Laboratory reconstructed a shooting incident to assess whether reported observations were consistent with physical evidence.

Photogrammetry was used to create an on-screen, three-dimensional computer model. To be consistent with physical evidence and to illustrate the incident from an unbiased view, it was animated in real-time.

This project was featured in an issue of the Accident Reconstruction Journal.

Services   Forensic Animation
Year        1996

https://knottlab.com/cases/denver-police-shooting/



JohnM

Online Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 956
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #118 on: June 04, 2025, 01:03:49 PM »
The fact that JFK was hit before Z223 was established years ago. Most lone-gunman theorists now insist the alleged magic-bullet hit occurred at Z223-224. But Kennedy's reaction at Z225 proves he must have been hit no later than Z221, and that's if you ignore his Z199-207 and Z224 reactions. Dr. Robert Piziali, an expert on injuries, admitted under cross examination at the 1992 ABA mock Oswald trial that if Kennedy was reacting to a wound in Z225, this would mean the bullet could have struck him no later than Z221. He explained there would have been a delay of 4 frames between the bullet's impact and Kennedy's reaction to it with his right hand. Obviously, this poses a fatal problem for the Z223-224 SBT. Dr. Piziali attempted to solve this problem by denying that Z225 shows Kennedy reacting to a wound with his right hand! In fact, Dr. Piziali denied Kennedy is reacting to a wound at all, in any way, in Z225! This is a good example of how SBT defenders will perform amazing flip-flops when confronted with troublesome facts.

Until the Z223-224 version of the SBT came along, there was wide agreement on both sides that JFK is reacting to a wound in Z225:

* Itek concluded Kennedy "is clearly reacting to a wound by frame 225."

* The photographic evidence panel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded Kennedy is reacting to a wound in Z225; they also concluded that JFK was hit by Z190 and that his Z224-225 reaction was a continuation of the reaction that starts at Z200.

* Richard Trask, a respected researcher and longtime student of the Zapruder film, observes that Kennedy "emerges from the behind the sign at Z225 clearly having been shot."

* Dr. John Lattimer, an staunch WC apologist and a darling among lone-gunman theorists, concluded Kennedy shows a "reflex reaction" to a wound in Z225 and opined the wound occurred at about Z220. In fact, in his book Kennedy and Lincoln, Lattimer acknowledges that Kennedy's elbows are beginning to "fly upward in frame 224" (p. 241). This is a crucial admission, and Lattimer deserves credit for acknowledging the obvious fact that JFK is reacting to a wound in Z224, which means he was hit no later than Z220. This, in turn, proves that his dramatic Z226-232 reaction must have been caused by a different bullet than the one that hit him between Z190 and Z221.

* Ardent lone-gunman theorist Gerald Posner opines that at Z225 Kennedy "appears to be reacting to a bullet."

* In fact, we know from the 4/22/64 WC memorandum for the record that when a group of wound ballistics experts, the autopsy doctors, and Commission staffers reviewed the Zapruder film frame by frame, with the aid of enlargements, the consensus was that Kennedy "had been definitely hit by frames 224-225."

It should be noted that this group included Dr. F. W. Light, the deputy chief of the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal, and Dr. Alfred G. Olivier, the chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch of the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal. The group further noted that the Z224-225 reaction may have begun as early as Z199, and also at around Z204-205:

Quote
The reaction shown in frames 224-225 may have started at an earlier point--possibly as early as frame 199 (where there appears to be some jerkiness in his [JFK's] movement) or, with a higher degree of possibility, at frames 204-205 (where his right elbow appears to be raised to an artificially high position). (WC memo, 4/22/64, p. 1)

The fact that these experts recognized unusual movements by JFK starting at Z199 is significant. The HSCA PEP noticed the same unusual movements and concluded JFK was hit by Z190.

What do we see in Z225? JFK is clearly in distress. His face is contorted and his hands are in front of his chest, right hand above left. Both his forearms are bent inward and his hands are moving upward toward his throat or mouth. It is obvious from Kennedy's face and hands--especially his right hand--that he is reacting to a wound in Z225. This means the bullet could not have struck later than Z221. JFK could not have begun to visibly react in Z225 in a response to a bullet that hit him at Z223 or Z224. Humans simply cannot react that quickly with their limbs. Thus, if Connally was hit at Z223, he must have been hit by a different bullet than the one that hit JFK no later than Z221.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2025, 01:15:26 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1132
Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #119 on: June 04, 2025, 03:25:52 PM »
The fact that JFK was hit before Z223 was established years ago. Most lone-gunman theorists now insist the alleged magic-bullet hit occurred at Z223-224. But Kennedy's reaction at Z225 proves he must have been hit no later than Z221, and that's if you ignore his Z199-207 and Z224 reactions. Dr. Robert Piziali, an expert on injuries, admitted under cross examination at the 1992 ABA mock Oswald trial that if Kennedy was reacting to a wound in Z225, this would mean the bullet could have struck him no later than Z221. He explained there would have been a delay of 4 frames between the bullet's impact and Kennedy's reaction to it with his right hand. Obviously, this poses a fatal problem for the Z223-224 SBT. Dr. Piziali attempted to solve this problem by denying that Z225 shows Kennedy reacting to a wound with his right hand! In fact, Dr. Piziali denied Kennedy is reacting to a wound at all, in any way, in Z225! This is a good example of how SBT defenders will perform amazing flip-flops when confronted with troublesome facts.

Until the Z223-224 version of the SBT came along, there was wide agreement on both sides that JFK is reacting to a wound in Z225:

* Itek concluded Kennedy "is clearly reacting to a wound by frame 225."

* The photographic evidence panel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded Kennedy is reacting to a wound in Z225; they also concluded that JFK was hit by Z190 and that his Z224-225 reaction was a continuation of the reaction that starts at Z200.

* Richard Trask, a respected researcher and longtime student of the Zapruder film, observes that Kennedy "emerges from the behind the sign at Z225 clearly having been shot."

* Dr. John Lattimer, an staunch WC apologist and a darling among lone-gunman theorists, concluded Kennedy shows a "reflex reaction" to a wound in Z225 and opined the wound occurred at about Z220. In fact, in his book Kennedy and Lincoln, Lattimer acknowledges that Kennedy's elbows are beginning to "fly upward in frame 224" (p. 241). This is a crucial admission, and Lattimer deserves credit for acknowledging the obvious fact that JFK is reacting to a wound in Z224, which means he was hit no later than Z220. This, in turn, proves that his dramatic Z226-232 reaction must have been caused by a different bullet than the one that hit him between Z190 and Z221.

* Ardent lone-gunman theorist Gerald Posner opines that at Z225 Kennedy "appears to be reacting to a bullet."

* In fact, we know from the 4/22/64 WC memorandum for the record that when a group of wound ballistics experts, the autopsy doctors, and Commission staffers reviewed the Zapruder film frame by frame, with the aid of enlargements, the consensus was that Kennedy "had been definitely hit by frames 224-225."

It should be noted that this group included Dr. F. W. Light, the deputy chief of the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal, and Dr. Alfred G. Olivier, the chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch of the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal. The group further noted that the Z224-225 reaction may have begun as early as Z199, and also at around Z204-205:

The fact that these experts recognized unusual movements by JFK starting at Z199 is significant. The HSCA PEP noticed the same unusual movements and concluded JFK was hit by Z190.

What do we see in Z225? JFK is clearly in distress. His face is contorted and his hands are in front of his chest, right hand above left. Both his forearms are bent inward and his hands are moving upward toward his throat or mouth. It is obvious from Kennedy's face and hands--especially his right hand--that he is reacting to a wound in Z225. This means the bullet could not have struck later than Z221. JFK could not have begun to visibly react in Z225 in a response to a bullet that hit him at Z223 or Z224. Humans simply cannot react that quickly with their limbs. Thus, if Connally was hit at Z223, he must have been hit by a different bullet than the one that hit JFK no later than Z221.

Can you explain why this group of self-proclaimed, distinguished experts is in direct conflict with a large group of eyewitnesses who tell a completely different story? You know the eyewitnesses.

Ultimately the whole post comes down to was JBC struck by the same bullet as JFK. The answer according to the other group of experts who stood along the street beside the car, rode in cars and motorcycles behind the car, and were occupants of the car is yes. They give a detailed account of the two shots and the reactions of the victims, JBC and JFK. Nobody in this group is guessing or estimating reaction times and all the other nonsense needed to be viewed as an expert opinion.

A partial list includes: DPD Chaney, DPD Hargis, SA Clint Hill, UPI Photographer Altgens, Zapruder, and 40+ other eyewitnesses who stated there were only two shots. The 20+ eyewitnesses who watch the car accelerate after the second shot before a third shot. The 20+ eyewitnesses who claim the second and third shot were so close it sounded like one.

 

The occupants of the car:

Jackie, Nellie both stated JBC cried out Oh No, No, No after the first shot and before the second.

JBC stated he cried out Oh No, No, No, after he was struck by the bullet.

SA Greer is a two shot witness

SA Kellerman stated the car accelerated after the second shot and before a third.

The Chism's state the first shot occurred before JFK reached their location. Z217-218.

Jean Newman stated the first shot occurred approximately 10 feet after the car had passed her location. Z200

These eyewitnesses should be given priority over experts estimating reaction times as if it was something etched in stone.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The lapel flip -- what did i miss?
« Reply #119 on: June 04, 2025, 03:25:52 PM »