Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Martin Weidmann]

Let's carry on with the thought experiment and look at the timings of Baker and Truly to see how they match with the 35-36 seconds it takes Vicki and Sandra to reach the first floor.
One of the time trials Baker and Truly undertook had them reaching the second floor lunchroom in around 75 seconds after the last shot.
If we assume it takes them 10 seconds to run up a single flight of stairs to the second floor lunch room. This has them leaving the first floor around 65 seconds after the last shot. Let's say they're hanging around the elevators for 10 seconds, a long time when you're in a hurry. Actually let's call it 15 seconds. This would have them arriving at the elevators around 50 seconds after the first shot.
In this perfectly feasible scenario, Baker and Truly miss Adams and Styles by 10-15 seconds.
This is how it's possible for Adams and Styles to race down the stairs before Truly and Baker ascend the same stairs, and neither pair sees the other. This is the only way the Stroud document can work.

When Adams hits the first floor she sees Shelley and Lovelady off to her right as she races to the back door.
When Baker arrives in the same location seconds later he reports seeing two white men in the same general vicinity.
These two white men can only be Shelley and Lovelady. Their presence corroborated by two independent witnesses.

I really don't understand why you keep talking to Nessan. You clearly suffer fools less gladly than me. He will never ever agree with anything you say and deny everything, making up bogus and false claims along the way.

Not only does he call Adams and Styles liars as well as Dorothy Garner, who confirmed to Barry Ernest what is written in the Stroud letter, but he actually wants us to believe that Victoria Adams started lying when she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63, that she and Styles ran to the stairs immediately after the shots, without knowing that Garner would corroborate her story several months later to Martha Stroud. And now, the dishonest fool goes one step further and denies that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the front entrance of the TSBD when the actual photograph has been shown on this forum before and Saywer testified that he arrived at the TSBD at around 12:34.

Nessan's insanity is beyond prevalent.

[Dan O'meara]

I really don't understand why you keep talking to Nessan. You clearly suffer fools less gladly than me. He will never ever agree with anything you say and deny everything, making up bogus and false claims along the way.

Not only does he call Adams and Styles liars as well as Dorothy Garner, who confirmed to Barry Ernest what is written in the Stroud letter, but he actually wants us to believe that Victoria Adams started lying when she told FBI agents Hardin and Scott, on 11/24/63, that she and Styles ran to the stairs immediately after the shots, without knowing that Garner would corroborate her story several months later to Martha Stroud. And now, the dishonest fool goes one step further and denies that Styles was photographed standing next to Sawyer's car near the front entrance of the TSBD when the actual photograph has been shown on this forum before and Saywer testified that he arrived at the TSBD at around 12:34.

Nessan's insanity is beyond prevalent.

Clearly I'm not going to change Jack's mind on the matter, or any other Nutter's mind.
That's obvious enough.
But this "lost interview" with Vicki is new evidence to me and has totally undermined what I previously thought about this aspect of the case.
After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
It helps to have someone like Jack or Tricky to debate with because it really tests the arguments I'm putting forward. That they constantly disagree with me means nothing, what matters is that they have ended up looking like real fools because their attempts to counter the arguments I'm putting forward have failed so miserably.
It ends up with smith ranting like a lunatic and Jack posting some real nonsense.

That Vicki takes off before the limo reaches the underpass is confirmed by the Dillard pic. Less than five seconds before that picture was taken Vicki was up at the fourth floor window watching the limo speed off.
That she takes off so quickly, and moves so quickly, is the only way the Stroud document can work. Even Jack admits this, then decides this key evidence is wrong because it proves him wrong. What a shock.
Baker and Truly arrive seconds after Vicki has passed by, so it is no surprise that Baker reports seeing two white men in that general vicinity.

Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.

[Jack Nessan]

What a shock!!
No analysis or critique of the arguments presented, just the usual  nothingness. Boring and irrelevant.

What happened to the key ingredient of Shelley and Lovelady being at the elevator?

Read what I've posted for once.
I clearly state it's a thought experiment examining how quickly Adams could have made it downstairs after the last shot.
That's all it is.
It is still the case Adams sees Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. That hasn't changed just because I'm examining how quickly Adams could have got downstairs. Her testimony hasn't changed just because I've focused on the specific aspect of how quickly she could've got down to the first floor. The corroboration of her WC testimony contained in the "lost interview" hasn't changed just because I've demonstrated she got down to the first floor in the time she actually testified she got down there, 30-60 seconds.

Do you understand that or do I need to draw you a diagram?

Timelines that are questionable at best

This is the only comment that comes close to a critique but, of course, you don't bother to mention which timelines and why they are questionable.
Provide a proper critique of the arguments I've put forward in the thought experiment. Show where you think it's wrong and why [I've already got the laughing emojis standing by].

That is right the only way. OK then, it is agreed the Stroud document is wrong


 
Jack has spoken!!
The evidence he doesn't like is wrong 
What a typical Nutter way to deal with key evidence.
The good news is you've had some kind of breakthrough - you now understand that the way I've presented my argument is the only way the Stroud document can work. Well done.

And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.

And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.

The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure. It does not matter what happened before they got to the first floor only after they arrived and who then did they encounter. Their encounter with Shelley and Lovelady could not have even possibly have taken place as early as 1 minute after the shots. Shelley left the building and walked out to the park and stated so from day 1. You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them. Nobody cared if they were out just walking around.

I think Adams and Styles made the decision to leave after watching the scene below them and it then took them time to actually leave. They had a birds eye view of everything below and leaving gained them what? They were not even certain if they were shots.

[Jack Nessan]

Clearly I'm not going to change Jack's mind on the matter, or any other Nutter's mind.
That's obvious enough.
But this "lost interview" with Vicki is new evidence to me and has totally undermined what I previously thought about this aspect of the case.
After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.
It helps to have someone like Jack or Tricky to debate with because it really tests the arguments I'm putting forward. That they constantly disagree with me means nothing, what matters is that they have ended up looking like real fools because their attempts to counter the arguments I'm putting forward have failed so miserably.
It ends up with smith ranting like a lunatic and Jack posting some real nonsense.

That Vicki takes off before the limo reaches the underpass is confirmed by the Dillard pic. Less than five seconds before that picture was taken Vicki was up at the fourth floor window watching the limo speed off.
That she takes off so quickly, and moves so quickly, is the only way the Stroud document can work. Even Jack admits this, then decides this key evidence is wrong because it proves him wrong. What a shock.
Baker and Truly arrive seconds after Vicki has passed by, so it is no surprise that Baker reports seeing two white men in that general vicinity.

Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.

After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.

But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.

Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.

But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.

[Dan O'meara]

And while you're at it - other than the lies of Shelley and Lovelady, what is the key evidence that convinces you Adams did not race down the stairs seconds after the shooting?
Don't bother ducking this question. You will be dragged into an honest debate kicking and screaming if that's what it takes.

The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure. It does not matter what happened before they got to the first floor only after they arrived and who then did they encounter. Their encounter with Shelley and Lovelady could not have even possibly have taken place as early as 1 minute after the shots. Shelley left the building and walked out to the park and stated so from day 1. You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them. Nobody cared if they were out just walking around.

I think Adams and Styles made the decision to leave after watching the scene below them and it then took them time to actually leave. They had a birds eye view of everything below and leaving gained them what? They were not even certain if they were shots.

The statements of Adams and Styles when compared with the statements of the police surrounding and sealing off the building do not support an early departure.

I've asked you what key evidence convinces you Adams and Styles did not leave straight away and you come up with this vague, meaningless statement.
Adams is absolutely clear that, before the limo even reaches the underpass she turns to Styles and basically says "Let's go". Styles confirms this. So Adams and Styles are saying they started to race down the stairs within seconds of the last shot.
This is confirmed by Garner, the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.

What police statement undermines this?
How does any police statement undermine this?
In exactly what way?

You are calling these men liars because they had their statements cut short to what was important to gaining information and knowledge of the shooting that day by the people taking them.

 
Oh boy...you do say some very silly things.
So both men are cut short while they are giving their affidavits? Is that what you are trying to say?
Even though Shelley goes on to give another affidavit after the first one??
The person taking down the statements is so rushed off their feet they don't even bother to record what witnesses are telling them? Is that what you think happened?
Is this your truly pathetic explanation as to why neither man mentions going down the Elm Street extension after the shooting? Why they forget to mention they were hanging around the railroad yard watching what was going on? Why it slipped their mind to mention they had re-entered the TSBD building through the west door?
Talk about a fantasist!

[Dan O'meara]

After listening to it a number of times I'm now convinced Adams set off when she said she did in her WC testimony, immediately after the last shot. That she hit the first floor 30-60 seconds after the last shot and that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when she got there.

But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.

Why did Shelley and Lovelady race to the back of the TSBD building after the first shot?
Why did they lie to cover this up?
I think these are two really important questions.

But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.

But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.

But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.

Yeah Jack, this isn't how 'debate' works.
Making vague, irrelevant statements like "there is more to the story" doesn't actually mean anything.
I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
Let me help you out, then you can pretend you thought of this - the main problem with the argument I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
You keep touching on another issue without realising it's importance. We both agree that after the shooting Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and has some kind of encounter with Gloria, after which he makes his way back to the steps. If you watch the Darnell film you will see it takes Baker between 3 and 4 seconds to cross the extension, so Shelley could make it there and back in less than ten seconds which would give him plenty of time to race to the back of the first floor.
The issue isn't Shelley's movements, it's Gloria's movements.
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.

[Martin Weidmann]

But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.

But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.

Yeah Jack, this isn't how 'debate' works.
Making vague, irrelevant statements like "there is more to the story" doesn't actually mean anything.
I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
Let me help you out, then you can pretend you thought of this - the main problem with the argument I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
You keep touching on another issue without realising it's importance. We both agree that after the shooting Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and has some kind of encounter with Gloria, after which he makes his way back to the steps. If you watch the Darnell film you will see it takes Baker between 3 and 4 seconds to cross the extension, so Shelley could make it there and back in less than ten seconds which would give him plenty of time to race to the back of the first floor.
The issue isn't Shelley's movements, it's Gloria's movements.
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.

He will never be able to tell you what "more" there is to the story.

The best evidence that the WC narrative about Adams and Styles is bogus is the fact that after 48 pages of discussion on the subject not a single LN has been able to provide a conclusive timeline, backed up by actual evidence, for the events involving both ladies between 12:30 and 12:36.

The best evidence that the WC understood that Adams' testimony was a problem for the "Oswald being on the 6th floor and coming down the stairs" scenario is that they were not interested at all in investigating the matter. They excluded Adams from the reconstructions, they refused to take testimony from Styles and Rankin buried the Stroud letter.

The bottom line is that Truly and Baker saw Oswald on the 2nd floor some 90 seconds after the shots. He had to have come down the stairs in less than 90 seconds after the shots, for them to be able to claim that Oswald was indeed on the 6th floor when the shots were fired. Adams' testimony would have made that claim impossible to make, which is exactly why they needed to discredit Adams, just like they needed to discredit Wesley Buell Frazier in the matter about the paper bag. A normal criminal investigation looks at all the evidence for the purpose of elimination of suspects. This was not a normal investigation. Here "evidence" was cherry picked at the expense of the witnesses to keep a pre-determined conclusion alive.

[Jack Nessan]

But there is more to the story than them reaching the first floor. Way more.

But there is more to the story than Shelley and Lovelady and it supports Shelley and Lovelady's statements and not Adams and Styles story.

Yeah Jack, this isn't how 'debate' works.
Making vague, irrelevant statements like "there is more to the story" doesn't actually mean anything.
I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
Let me help you out, then you can pretend you thought of this - the main problem with the argument I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.
You keep touching on another issue without realising it's importance. We both agree that after the shooting Shelley runs across the Elm Street extension and has some kind of encounter with Gloria, after which he makes his way back to the steps. If you watch the Darnell film you will see it takes Baker between 3 and 4 seconds to cross the extension, so Shelley could make it there and back in less than ten seconds which would give him plenty of time to race to the back of the first floor.
The issue isn't Shelley's movements, it's Gloria's movements.
If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.

I'm putting forward is that no-one on the steps reports Shelley and Lovelady going back inside the building. I would assume that everyone on the steps knows who they are but, somehow, nobody notices them going back inside.

Huh? How about why would they? 

If it takes her 30 seconds to get back to the TSBD then there's no way Shelley can run into her and then make his way to the back of the first floor in time for Adams to see him.
Enjoy.

Who is Gloria and why are her movements important?

Seriously, why would anyone pay any attention to the movements of Shelley and Lovelady? The question that was trying to be answered was if the girls left as early as they stated how did they miss seeing everyone?

The Adams and Styles Story has two parts.

Part one is the girls run to the bottom of the steps. That is nothing more than their recollections and statements. They say it happened and you believe it and everyone else in the story are liars. Boy wasn't that easy.

Part two is the time stamps placed on their travels by Shelley and Lovelady, Sgt Harkness, Detective Sawyer, Officer Barnett and the girls themselves. All understanding it requires is reading and understanding what you are reading. It is much easier to deal with an unsupported storyline from the girls. How could they possibly be mistaken, right. Believing them takes no thought at all. But backtracking from known times stated by the police present at the time tells a different story on their departure. It is not that complicated.