First shot reactions

[Andrew Mason]

Not your shot sequence, though. Notice where they placed the first shot? While Kennedy was behind the sign, not before he went behind the sign, and certainly not Z191-or-so.

They were looking for JFK's first reaction. There is no obvious reaction before z225.  So they aren't able to pinpoint where JFK's reaction began.  So their conclusion that it happened while he was behind the sign is not unreasonable.   The memo also says within + or - 6 frames. JFK is behind the sign from z198 to z225.  The evidence puts it after the VP car completes the turn, after Betzner's z186 photo, and before Phil Willis' z202 photo.  It is difficult to pinpoint exactly.   I put the first shot a few frames before z198, likely at z195, largely based on Jack Ready's reaction which begins at z199, and Rosemary Willis' sharp turning of her head (at z202). 

What is more important is that, based on the available evidence, a group of reasonable people were persuaded that JFK was struck on the first shot. There is a lot of evidence that supported that conclusion.

They also think Kennedy alone was hit by the first shot; you say Kennedy and Connally were. They say Connally was stuck only one time, on the second shot; you say he was hit a second time on the second shot.

That is true.  Their analysis was not perfect. But it is understandable. Connally recalled being hit by only one bullet.  They overlooked the possibility that the reason Connally had no recollection of sustaining a leg wound was because a) it caused no pain and b) he was preoccupied with the sound of a rifle shot and fearing an assassination was unfolding.  The trajectory through JFK definitely goes to Connally's left side but no one realized that Connally's left thigh could have been exposed to a direct hit by a tumbling bullet after passing through JFK.

As it is that you're referencing the memo, you're confirming that your primary basis for rejecting the SBT is unscientific knee-jerk scoffing.

No. I was just pointing out, as I mentioned in post #88, that I am not the only one who ever thought that all three bullets hit in the car.  It is a very rational conclusion based on evidence.  It is just one that you disagree with.

As I have said many times, the primary basis for rejecting the SBT is ALL the evidence, such as:

1.   At least 20 witnesses said that JFK was hit by the first shot, judging by his reaction.  Not a single witness said he smiled and waved afterward, which is what you believe.
2.  At least 20 witnesses put the first shot after z186, for many different reasons.
3.  The best witnesses to the assassination - the Connallys, Greer, Powers, Hickey - gave evidence indicating that all three bullets struck in the car.  There is no evidence to explain why Oswald would have missed, especially the first shot and no real evidence of a missed shot.
4.  The 40+ witnesses who distinctly recalled the last two shots being close together ("rapid succession") and closer than the first two, (not including those witnesses who just described a first shot followed by two more) necessarily means JFK was hit by the first shot.

[Andrew Mason]

Re SBT: Tell us what FMJ ammo is designed to do. You can look it up if you have to.

FMJ ammunition was designed to stop soldiers from engaging in combat and not to cause devastating wounds in soldiers that simply resulted in unnecessary pain and suffering while accomplishing no military objective.  FMJ ammunition was not "designed" to go through multiple bodies.   If it had been designed to go through multiple persons without causing devastating wounds, FMJ failed because once a FMJ bullet becomes unstable it can cause devastating wounds.

[Jerry Organ]

They were looking for JFK's first reaction. There is no obvious reaction before z225.  So they aren't able to pinpoint where JFK's reaction began.  So their conclusion that it happened while he was behind the sign is not unreasonable.   The memo also says within + or - 6 frames.

Z225 is the endpoint, so Z219-Z2225.

JFK is behind the sign from z198 to z225.  The evidence puts it after the VP car completes the turn,

Lady Bird said they were "rounding a curve" when she heard a shot.

after Betzner's z186 photo,

Right. Betzner was looking down and winding his camera when he heard a shot. He hasn't got that far by Z207 when he goes out of the Z-film.

and before Phil Willis' z202 photo.  It is difficult to pinpoint exactly.   I put the first shot a few frames before z198, likely at z195,

That's your current placement. It's varied over the years.

largely based on Jack Ready's reaction which begins at z199, and Rosemary Willis' sharp turning of her head (at z202).

Except both make head turns to their right earlier than that.

What is more important is that, based on the available evidence, a group of reasonable people were persuaded that JFK was struck on the first shot.

About the same time many in the public were asking how Kennedy could be shot from the front (ie: throat) when Oswald was behind him.

There is a lot of evidence that supported that conclusion.

That is true.  Their analysis was not perfect. But it is understandable. Connally recalled being hit by only one bullet.  They overlooked the possibility that the reason Connally had no recollection of sustaining a leg wound was because a) it caused no pain and b) he was preoccupied with the sound of a rifle shot and fearing an assassination was unfolding.

And the SBT is ridiculous? OK. LOL.

The trajectory through JFK definitely goes to Connally's left side but no one realized that Connally's left thigh could have been exposed to a direct hit by a tumbling bullet after passing through JFK.

How on Earth did you establish that trajectory?

No. I was just pointing out, as I mentioned in post #88, that I am not the only one who ever thought that all three bullets hit in the car.  It is a very rational conclusion based on evidence.  It is just one that you disagree with.

In the context of the memo, it clearly comes across as unscientific knee-jerk scoffing.

As I have said many times, the primary basis for rejecting the SBT is ALL the evidence, such as:

1.   At least 20 witnesses said that JFK was hit by the first shot, judging by his reaction.  Not a single witness said he smiled and waved afterward, which is what you believe.

That's because most of them couldn't see his front. And some described him slumping on the shot before the head shot.

2.  At least 20 witnesses put the first shot after z186, for many different reasons.

Well Betzner puts his so-called "first shot" to what seems a significant time beyond the Z200s, since he has to be looking down and winding his camera when he hears that shot.

3.  The best witnesses to the assassination - the Connallys, Greer, Powers, Hickey - gave evidence indicating that all three bullets struck in the car.  There is no evidence to explain why Oswald would have missed, especially the first shot and no real evidence of a missed shot.

Those are your "best witnesses" to all bullets striking in the car? OK.

4.  The 40+ witnesses who distinctly recalled the last two shots being close together ("rapid succession") and closer than the first two, (not including those witnesses who just described a first shot followed by two more) necessarily means JFK was hit by the first shot.

Walking digital recorders.

[Andrew Mason]

Z225 is the endpoint, so Z219-Z2225.

And 225 + 6 = z231 so I don't think they were using z225.  They said it was "a moment" before z225 while JFK was behind the sign. They did not give a frame no. but put it within a range of 12 frames of the frame they were suggesting. (the car was at about 12 mph, which is 18 feet/sec, so it was moving about a foot per frame).   It is anybody's guess as to where behind the Stemmons sign they figured the shot struck.

Lady Bird said they were "rounding a curve" when she heard a shot.

.. she also said they were "going down a hill". (She also said the last two shot were in rapid succession).  Her statement is consistent with driver Hurchel Jacks who said that he had "just straightened up" after making the left turn. It has yet to "straighten up" at z186 and is just beginning the turn at z157. 

Right. Betzner was looking down and winding his camera when he heard a shot. He hasn't got that far by Z207 when he goes out of the Z-film.

He said he was winding his film. He did not say where he was looking.

That's your current placement. It's varied over the years.

I have been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred between z186 and z202.  I thought it was around z198 until a few years ago when I discovered Jack Ready and the zfilm could be used to pinpoint it a bit earlier. Jack Ready said when he heard the first shot he immediately turned to look back over his right shoulder.  To do that he had to release his right hand from the car handhold.  He did not do that until z199.

And the SBT is ridiculous? OK. LOL.

I didn't say that, although it is apparent that some may have thought as much in January 1964.  I don't attack others' views by making fun of them. I do it by pointing out the evidence that conflicts with it.

How on Earth did you establish that trajectory?

It depends on the range of possible seating positions of JBC. If he was sitting in front of JFK and less than 8 inches left of JFK, which is within that possible range, his right armpit was right of JFK's exit wound. And the bullet was travelling right to left.  Then you have to factor in JBC's sharp right turn at z195.

Well Betzner puts his so-called "first shot" to what seems a significant time beyond the Z200s, since he has to be looking down and winding his camera when he hears that shot.

He said he was winding his film. Why does he have to be looking down to do that?

Those are your "best witnesses" to all bullets striking in the car? OK.

Walking digital recorders.

All they had to do was observe.  They all had observations that indicate all three shots struck in the car.

[Jerry Organ]

And 225 + 6 = z231 so I don't think they were using z225.  They said it was "a moment" before z225 while JFK was behind the sign. They did not give a frame no. but put it within a range of 12 frames of the frame they were suggesting. (the car was at about 12 mph, which is 18 feet/sec, so it was moving about a foot per frame).   It is anybody's guess as to where behind the Stemmons sign they figured the shot struck.

I believe they were working on the assumption Kennedy had a wounded appearance in Z225. The SS may have thought a frame or two later.

.. she also said they were "going down a hill". (She also said the last two shot were in rapid succession). 

They were going down a hill. The inclination begins early.

Her statement is consistent with driver Hurchel Jacks who said that he had "just straightened up" after making the left turn.

Lady Bird never said the car had straightened up.

It has yet to "straighten up" at z186 and is just beginning the turn at z157. 

Not far from being straightened out by, say, Z160 (allow a few frames for witnesses to perceive and process the noise) since the car is 70-degrees off Houston with just the rear trunk remaining to go on Elm. The driver said he was looking at the President, not gauging how straight his car was. He might later have had the impression that he had literally straightened up, but it wasn't the most important thing to remember.

He said he was winding his film. He did not say where he was looking.

I believe he wanted to see the film number so he would know when to stop winding.

I have been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred between z186 and z202.  I thought it was around z198 until a few years ago when I discovered Jack Ready and the zfilm could be used to pinpoint it a bit earlier. Jack Ready said when he heard the first shot he immediately turned to look back over his right shoulder.  To do that he had to release his right hand from the car handhold.  He did not do that until z199.

I estimate Ready made a 60-degree rightward head turn between Z165-Z169. I think he would need a few seconds to decide what to do and how to balance himself before he fully turned around. The four agents are precariously-balanced on a narrow strip on the outside of a moving car. Landis thought Ready may have said some words just after the first shot which might indicate some hesitation and not an instantaneous decision to turn rearward.

Z200 (clearer than Z199)

]

Ready's head barely moves after Z199. So that's probably not where he "immediately" turned to his right.

I didn't say that, although it is apparent that some may have thought as much in January 1964.  I don't attack others' views by making fun of them. I do it by pointing out the evidence that conflicts with it.

Apparently Kelley didn't know much about ballistics. Maybe he went to law school and didn't see much field work.

It depends on the range of possible seating positions of JBC. If he was sitting in front of JFK and less than 8 inches left of JFK, which is within that possible range, his right armpit was right of JFK's exit wound. And the bullet was travelling right to left.  Then you have to factor in JBC's sharp right turn at z195.

Well you did a poor job of that.

He said he was winding his film. Why does he have to be looking down to do that?

All they had to do was observe.  They all had observations that indicate all three shots struck in the car.

[Royell Storing]

Re SBT: Tell us what FMJ ammo is designed to do. You can look it up if you have to.

    Well, for starters we Know "FMJ ammo" is NOT designed to do what we see happening to JFK's head on Z 313. YOU can Not have it both ways.

[Bill Chapman]

    Well, for starters we Know "FMJ ammo" is NOT designed to do what we see happening to JFK's head on Z 313. YOU can Not have it both ways.

FMJ ammo is designed to travel through-and-through flesh and remain as intact as possible. Glancing off heavy bone can twist and squeeze out some intact/pristine design ambitions.


CE 399 Butt End view
A view never posted by CTers

Regarding the head shot: The fact that I don't claim FMJ ammo as purposed to remain intact after encountering solid bone straight on, your charge of 'having it both ways' is rendered moot. Striking the back of the skull nose-first can shatter some people's illusions about what FMJ ammo can and can't do.

 

[Ray Mitcham]

Lady Bird said they were "rounding a curve" when she heard a shot.

Yes the limo was rounding a curve as it went down the ramp. (It curves two ways on the downslope.)

She didn't say they were  rounding a corner. A curve is not a comer.