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Author Topic: First shot reactions  (Read 9889 times)

Online Charles Collins

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First shot reactions
« on: July 23, 2019, 08:45:15 PM »
In the clip below, I believe that you can see each of the limo occupants simultaneously react to the sound of the first shot.



JFK suddenly drops his right hand from his hair and looks to his left (towards Jackie). Then suddenly returns his head to the crowd on his right (probably reacting to the sound of someone yelling).

John Connally first turns to his right, then quickly turns to his left (towards Nellie), then back to his right.

Jackie suddenly turns her head further to her left, then back towards the front of the limo.

Nellie Connally suddenly turns to her right (towards John Connally).

Agent Roy Kellerman suddenly turns his head to his right, then quickly back towards the front.

Agent Greer (driver) appears to have his gaze towards the camera (Zapruder) and doesn't appear to move his head. He is the exception, perhaps Zapruder (up high on the pedistal) caught his eye.

And last, but not least, William T. McIntyre (on the left running board of the presidential follow-up car) Hickey suddenly looks to his left and down. He appears to me to be looking at the tires of the limo for a blow-out. (Perhaps he thought the loud noise might have been a tire blowing out.)

Edit: William T. McIntyre is almost hidden behind Clint Hill. However, I believe I see him suddenly duck his head and look around Clint Hill.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 10:42:46 PM by Charles Collins »

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First shot reactions
« on: July 23, 2019, 08:45:15 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 09:20:58 PM »
Additionally, notice the contrast in the facial expressions in the two photographs below:

Willis took this photo near the beginning of the clip posted in the first post above. Everyone is smiling and in contact with the crowd.




Croft took this photo closer to the end of the clip in the original post. Both John Connally and Jackie have quizzical expressions. It appears to me that they are looking around and wondering what that loud noise they just heard was.




Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 09:28:26 PM »
In the clip below, I believe that you can see each of the limo occupants simultaneously react to the sound of the first shot.



JFK suddenly drops his right hand from his hair and looks to his left (towards Jackie). Then suddenly returns his head to the crowd on his right (probably reacting to the sound of someone yelling).

John Connally first turns to his right, then quickly turns to his left (towards Nellie), then back to his right.
Jackie suddenly turns her head further to her left, then back towards the front of the limo.

The leftward turns were from hearing shouts from the crowd there. During the turning and straightening up of the limousine. the Kennedys and Connallys had ten seconds or so to interact with the crowd on their right. Jackie and the Connallys said they turn their heads to their right in reaction to the first shot. The Connallys begin to make rightward head turns in the Z160s, followed by Mrs. Kennedy in the early-Z170s.

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Nellie Connally suddenly turns to her right (towards John Connally).

Agent Roy Kellerman suddenly turns his head to his right, then quickly back towards the front.

Nellie would have been turned rightward enough to see the President stop waving and assume he was wounded on the first shot. She may also have seen him stop smiling if he had seen the Umbrella Man protester.

I can't see Kellerman turn his head.

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Agent Greer (driver) appears to have his gaze towards the camera (Zapruder) and doesn't appear to move his head. He is the exception, perhaps Zapruder (up high on the pedistal) caught his eye.

And last, but not least, William T. McIntyre (on the left running board of the presidential follow-up car) suddenly looks to his left and down. He appears to me to be looking at the tires of the limo for a blow-out. (Perhaps he thought the loud noise might have been a tire blowing out.)

You seem to have gotten McIntyre mixed up with Agent Hickey.

    "After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker.
     It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level.
     I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it."

Supposedly he was not "stood up" when he heard the first shot.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 09:28:26 PM »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2019, 09:33:47 PM »
In the clip below, I believe that you can see each of the limo occupants simultaneously react to the sound of the first shot.



JFK suddenly drops his right hand from his hair and looks to his left (towards Jackie). Then suddenly returns his head to the crowd on his right (probably reacting to the sound of someone yelling).

John Connally first turns to his right, then quickly turns to his left (towards Nellie), then back to his right.

Jackie suddenly turns her head further to her left, then back towards the front of the limo.

Nellie Connally suddenly turns to her right (towards John Connally).

Agent Roy Kellerman suddenly turns his head to his right, then quickly back towards the front.

Agent Greer (driver) appears to have his gaze towards the camera (Zapruder) and doesn't appear to move his head. He is the exception, perhaps Zapruder (up high on the pedistal) caught his eye.

And last, but not least, William T. McIntyre (on the left running board of the presidential follow-up car) suddenly looks to his left and down. He appears to me to be looking at the tires of the limo for a blow-out. (Perhaps he thought the loud noise might have been a tire blowing out.)
All reactions are "sudden" if that is the test.  It does not take seconds to turn one's head or lift an arm.   

There is not only no evidence that there was a shot by that point but there is abundant evidence that there was not:  after z186 (Betzner; Hughes); after z191 (after the VP limo finished the turn) and just before z202 (Willis); when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (TE Moore) or opposite the west corner of the TSBD (Greer).  Furthermore, there are at least 20 witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot by immediately moving left/bringing his hands toward his neck/looking startled or surprised. No one said he looked like he does in the frames prior to z195 after the first shot.

The movements you see from z162 or so to z195 is consistent with what Mary Woodward said occurred just before the first "horrible ear-shattering noise".

Online Charles Collins

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 10:10:09 PM »
The leftward turns were from hearing shouts from the crowd there. During the turning and straightening up of the limousine. the Kennedys and Connallys had ten seconds or so to interact with the crowd on their right. Jackie and the Connallys said they turn their heads to their right in reaction to the first shot. The Connallys begin to make rightward head turns in the Z160s, followed by Mrs. Kennedy in the early-Z170s.

Nellie would have been turned rightward enough to see the President stop waving and assume he was wounded on the first shot. She may also have seen him stop smiling if he had seen the Umbrella Man protester.

I can't see Kellerman turn his head.

You seem to have gotten McIntyre mixed up with Agent Hickey.

    "After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker.
     It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level.
     I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it."

Supposedly he was not "stood up" when he heard the first shot.

The leftward turns were from hearing shouts from the crowd there. During the turning and straightening up of the limousine. the Kennedys and Connallys had ten seconds or so to interact with the crowd on their right. Jackie and the Connallys said they turn their heads to their right in reaction to the first shot. The Connallys begin to make rightward head turns in the Z160s, followed by Mrs. Kennedy in the early-Z170s.

Jerry, there wasn't much of a crowd on that side of the street (to shout). And the expressions on the faces of Jackie and John Connally in Croft's photo certainly don't show any connection to the crowd. John Connally briefly turns to his right, then left, and back to the right. All of the reactions by six different people happen in the same span of 2.07 seconds.

You seem to have gotten McIntyre mixed up with Agent Hickey.

Yes, I believe you are correct. Thank you. McIntyre is almost hidden right behind Clint Hill. However, on a closer look, it appears to me that he also reacts by suddenly ducking his head and looking around Clint Hill. That would be seven different people reacting during the same interval of 2.07 seconds.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 10:10:09 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2019, 10:38:00 PM »
All reactions are "sudden" if that is the test.  It does not take seconds to turn one's head or lift an arm.   

There is not only no evidence that there was a shot by that point but there is abundant evidence that there was not:  after z186 (Betzner; Hughes); after z191 (after the VP limo finished the turn) and just before z202 (Willis); when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (TE Moore) or opposite the west corner of the TSBD (Greer).  Furthermore, there are at least 20 witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot by immediately moving left/bringing his hands toward his neck/looking startled or surprised. No one said he looked like he does in the frames prior to z195 after the first shot.

The movements you see from z162 or so to z195 is consistent with what Mary Woodward said occurred just before the first "horrible ear-shattering noise".

Additional evidence (that can be pretty accurately clocked) to counter your opinion:

Harkness suddenly turns from his duty of controlling the Main Street/Houston Street intersection and looking intently for something in the direction of the presidential limo.

Hughes' film shows he lifted his finger enough to stop the camera for six frames (a very brief 0.3 seconds, very unusual and could be indicative of a reaction to the first shot). Simultaneously, the Dorman film shows an extremely blurred frame then stops for 49 frames.

Tina Towner film stopped just before the unusual Hughes and Dorman films' anomalies. Tina has said she stopped filming just before the first shot.

The observant Howard Brennan said in his 11/22/63 affidavit that JFK's back was inline with the last window of the TSBD when the first shot occurred. From Brennan's position this puts JFK inline with those windows at just before Z133.

Rosemary Willis suddenly turns her head over her right shoulder and looks back in the direction of the TSBD just after Z133 and begins to slow (in order to stop). She has said that she did just that.

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2019, 10:50:25 PM »
All reactions are "sudden" if that is the test.  It does not take seconds to turn one's head or lift an arm.   

There is not only no evidence that there was a shot by that point but there is abundant evidence that there was not:  after z186 (Betzner; Hughes); after z191 (after the VP limo finished the turn)


(Animation goes to Z150)

The car is turned 90-degrees off Houston by Z160. The driver isn't looking at where his car is pointed; he's looking at the Presidential limousine. Mrs. Johnson said they were still "rounding a curve" when she heard the first shot.

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and just before z202 (Willis); when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (TE Moore)



Kennedy was closer and more visible to Moore in the Z160s than the Z200s. If Kennedy "slumped" on the first shot as you claim happened and that slump is in the Z220s, then Kennedy is well pass the Thornton sign.

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or opposite the west corner of the TSBD (Greer). 

That also works better with the Z160s than the Z200s.

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Furthermore, there are at least 20 witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot by immediately moving left/bringing his hands toward his neck/looking startled or surprised. No one said he looked like he does in the frames prior to z195 after the first shot.

Mary Woodward says he was uninjured after the first shot and "slumped" only after the second shot, probably the late-Z220s slump. How many of your "slumped on first" witnesses actually could see the front of Kennedy?

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The movements you see from z162 or so to z195 is consistent with what Mary Woodward said occurred just before the first "horrible ear-shattering noise".

So Woodward is good enough for you here? She said the Kennedys looked around after hearing the first shot as if confused. They only do that before the Z200s.

She said they Kennedys acknowledged their cheers prior to the first shot. The Zapruder film show Woodward and her crew did no unusual hand waving or jumping up and down between the Z150s and Z180s. The Kennedys must have looked their way prior to Z133. Kennedy is looking pass her area Z150s-onward and Mrs. Kennedy doesn't get her head turned rightward until after the car has passed Woodward. By then the President is between Woodward and Jackie. If Woodward saw Jackie's face, it had to be before Z133.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2019, 10:50:25 PM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2019, 11:14:10 PM »
Additional evidence (that can be pretty accurately clocked) to counter your opinion:

Harkness suddenly turns from his duty of controlling the Main Street/Houston Street intersection and looking intently for something in the direction of the presidential limo.

Hughes' film shows he lifted his finger enough to stop the camera for six frames (a very brief 0.3 seconds, very unusual and could be indicative of a reaction to the first shot). Simultaneously, the Dorman film shows an extremely blurred frame then stops for 49 frames.

Do you know how Dorman was holding her camera?

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Tina Towner film stopped just before the unusual Hughes and Dorman films' anomalies. Tina has said she stopped filming just before the first shot.

The observant Howard Brennan said in his 11/22/63 affidavit that JFK's back was inline with the last window of the TSBD when the first shot occurred. From Brennan's position this puts JFK inline with those windows at just before Z133.

By "last window" do you mean the SW window? Mason made the same mistake.

Brennan said "the President's back was in line with the last set of windows I have previously described". That means the SE corner window set. He appears to be describing Kennedy's back was facing the SE corner when he heard the first shot. This works fairly well for the Z220s, but very angular if a Z240s z140s shot. Brennan said it was the first shot in an affidavit that describes two shots in total.

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Rosemary Willis suddenly turns her head over her right shoulder and looks back in the direction of the TSBD just after Z133 and begins to slow (in order to stop). She has said that she did just that.

She's watching where's she headed and looking over at the cars.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 02:28:51 AM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2019, 11:14:10 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2019, 11:27:05 PM »
Do you know how Dorman was holding her camera?

By "last window" do you mean the SW window? Mason made the same mistake.

Brennan said "the President's back was in line with the last set of windows I have previously described". That means the SE corner window set. He appears to be describing Kennedy's back was facing the SE corner when he heard the first shot. This works fairly well for the Z220s, but very angular if a Z240s shot. Brennan said it was the first shot in an affidavit that describes two shots in total.

She's watching where's she headed and looking over at the cars.

Do you know how Dorman was holding her camera?

Yes, she wasn’t looking through the viewfinder, if that is what you mean.

By "last window" do you mean the SW window?

Yes, that is the logical interpretation.

She's watching where's she headed and looking over at the cars.

No way

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2019, 01:26:36 AM »

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.




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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2019, 01:26:36 AM »

 

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