JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: David Von Pein on January 08, 2018, 09:08:27 AM
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The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle (with William Waldman of Klein's verifying this fact in his WC testimony), and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing the "Hidell" money order into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Klein's shipped that rifle to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas.
Klein's received payment for that rifle (otherwise, of course, they never would have generated the order form which became Waldman Exhibit No. 7).
More here:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html
And here (marathon "Money Order" discussion):
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html
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Ahh, another seasoned WC parrot suddenly getting busy...
There is no creditable evidence Klein's even stocked C 2766 in evidence.
Newbies may start here:
https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf
Yes, they have been working overtime since the site crashed; even pulling in DVP.
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The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle (with William Waldman of Klein's verifying this fact in his WC testimony), and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing the "Hidell" money order into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Klein's shipped that rifle to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas.
Klein's received payment for that rifle (otherwise, of course, they never would have generated the order form which became Waldman Exhibit No. 7).
More here:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html
And here (marathon "Money Order" discussion):
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html
The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact.
Please explain in detail how Waldman 7 proves that the rifle was mailed to the P.O. Box?
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
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So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle? LOL. You can't be for real. Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting, fled the scene within minutes, and lied about owning a rifle. How about consulting Sherlock Holmes to determine the "implications" if you can't figure it out on your own?
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What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle? LOL. You can't be for real. Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting, fled the scene within minutes, and lied about owning a rifle. How about consulting Sherlock Holmes to determine the "implications" if you can't figure it out on your own?
No need to expose your shallow minded stupidity, Richard. This is precisely the superficial "logic" I expected to get in reply to my question. It tells me you have completely missed the point I was going to make.
Grow a brain and then get back to me... In the meantime, let's just see if David can come up with a better answer.
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What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle? LOL. You can't be for real. Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting, fled the scene within minutes, and lied about owning a rifle. How about consulting Sherlock Holmes to determine the "implications" if you can't figure it out on your own?
What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle?
Of course you certainly are aware that the rifle was ordered NINE MONTHS prior to the murder of president Kennedy.
What was the motive for ordering a an unusual, cheap, easily traceable rifle that was left near General Walker's residence on the night of April 10 1963?
Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
That seems to be the facts......But What do those facts indicate ?
Was the rifle actually fired that day?.....Based on the fact that nobody reported the stink of burned gunpowder near the rifle that had been carefully buried beneath boxes of books, nor was there any mention of the stink at the time that Captain Fritz opened the bolt about 45 minutes after the shooting.....I would appear that the rifle was NOT fired that day.
The same reasoning can be applied to the spent shells....Did anybody report sniffing the scent of gunpowder when they were picked up?..... Can you verify that the spent shells were actually fired that day?
The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting,
Ownership of that Carcano has never been conclusively proven..... However there is proof that Lee did have a Carcano SIMILAR to the TSBD carcano in his hands way back in March of 1963....... Whether he owned that Carcano is an unresolved question.
As to the statement hat he had no alibi.....Lee said that he was in the first floor lunchroom and h saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman enter the building at the door near the first floor lunchroom .....Jarman and Norman testified that they did in fact enter he first floor at about 12:27.....
fled the scene within minutes,
Walking a couple of blocks and getting on a bus that was stuck in traffic is your idea of "fleeing??
and lied about owning a rifle.
There is absolutely no proof that Lee OWNED that TSBD rifle.....
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What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle?
Of course you certainly are aware that the rifle was ordered NINE MONTHS prior to the murder of president Kennedy.
What was the motive for ordering a an unusual, cheap, easily traceable rifle that was left near General Walker's residence on the night of April 10 1963?
Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
That seems to be the facts......But What do those facts indicate ?
Was the rifle actually fired that day?.....Based on the fact that nobody reported the stink of burned gunpowder near the rifle that had been carefully buried beneath boxes of books, nor was there any mention of the stink at the time that Captain Fritz opened the bolt about 45 minutes after the shooting.....I would appear that the rifle was NOT fired that day.
The same reasoning can be applied to the spent shells....Did anybody report sniffing the scent of gunpowder when they were picked up?..... Can you verify that the spent shells were actually fired that day?
The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting,
Ownership of that Carcano has never been conclusively proven..... However there is proof that Lee did have a Carcano SIMILAR to the TSBD carcano in his hands way back in March of 1963....... Whether he owned that Carcano is an unresolved question.
As to the statement hat he had no alibi.....Lee said that he was in the first floor lunchroom and h saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman enter the building at the door near the first floor lunchroom .....Jarman and Norman testified that they did in fact enter he first floor at about 12:27.....
fled the scene within minutes,
Walking a couple of blocks and getting on a bus that was stuck in traffic is your idea of "fleeing??
and lied about owning a rifle.
There is absolutely no proof that Lee OWNED that TSBD rifle.....
So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start. Oswald did not order this rifle intending to assassinate JFK. He had no clue when he ordered the rifle that JFK would ever come to Dallas or that he would happen to be working in a building overlooking the motorcade. He intended to use it to assassinate Walker. He used an alias to do so. Covering his tracks to the best of his ability. He never intended the rifle to be found in his Walker scenario and it was not. So it worked out fine in that instance. He had no similar option in the JFK assassination to get away with the rifle. He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus. He left within minutes. Got a cab for the first time. Not even pausing to ascertain what was going on. Even after a police officer pulled a gun on him. Oswald was in full flight murdering a police officer. Flight doesn't mean he was running away in a panic as some CTers mistakenly suggest constitutes flight. He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight). No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it. Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number. His prints are on the rifle. It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine. What evidence do you believe we should have that we do not under that circumstances that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the MC rifle?
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So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start. Oswald did not order this rifle intending to assassinate JFK. He had no clue when he ordered the rifle that JFK would ever come to Dallas or that he would happen to be working in a building overlooking the motorcade. He intended to use it to assassinate Walker. He used an alias to do so. Covering his tracks to the best of his ability. He never intended the rifle to be found in his Walker scenario and it was not. So it worked out fine in that instance. He had no similar option in the JFK assassination to get away with the rifle. He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus. He left within minutes. Got a cab for the first time. Not even pausing to ascertain what was going on. Even after a police officer pulled a gun on him. Oswald was in full flight murdering a police officer. Flight doesn't mean he was running away in a panic as some CTers mistakenly suggest constitutes flight. He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight). No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it. Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number. His prints are on the rifle. It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine. What evidence do you believe we should have that we do not under that circumstances that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the MC rifle?
No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it.
Ignorance strikes again; apart from the problem that there is absolutely no conclusive evidence to support the claim that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photo is the same one that was ordered from Klein's or the one that was found at the TSBD, according to Richard Smith, being photographed holding a rifle means you own that rifle! Hilarious!
Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number.
There are no such documents.
His prints are on the rifle.
No there were not. The FBI didn't find any prints...... Only days later, Lt Day produced a card with one print on it which he claimed came from the rifle. That's the same guy who believed Frazier about the bag and came up with the silly theory that the heavy bag he had could have been concealed in the flimsy bag Frazier had seen Oswald carry.
It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine.
No. It's difficult to understand how you could be so extremely gullible as you seem to be.....
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No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it.
Ignorance strikes again; apart from the problem that there is absolutely no conclusive evidence to support the claim that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photo is the same one that was ordered from Klein's or the one that was found at the TSBD, according to Richard Smith, being photographed holding a rifle means you own that rifle! Hilarious!
Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number.
There are no such documents.
His prints are on the rifle.
No there were not. The FBI didn't find any prints...... Only days later, Lt Day produced a card with one print on it which he claimed came from the rifle. That's the same guy who believed Frazier about the bag and came up with the silly theory that the heavy bag he had could have been concealed in the flimsy bag Frazier had seen Oswald carry.
It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine.
No. It's difficult to understand how you could be so extremely gullible as you seem to be.....
Answer a simple question and forget all your babbling. What evidence would prove to your subjective loony satisfaction that Oswald owned the rifle found on the 6th floor if the current record does not do so? Or are you basically arguing that it is not possible to ever prove such a thing?
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Answer a simple question and forget all your babbling. What evidence would prove to your subjective loony satisfaction that Oswald owned the rifle found on the 6th floor if the current record does not do so? Or are you basically arguing that it is not possible to ever prove such a thing?
Or are you basically arguing that it is not possible to ever prove such a thing?
No... but it would require better evidence than the Klein's crap we have in this case.
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Nothing illustrates the constant denial of CTers like this topic of "Oswald Owned The Rifle". And I see that nothing has changed here in 2018, with virtually all Internet CTers deciding to totally ignore the vast evidence (of varying types) that prove that Lee Oswald ORDERED, PAID FOR, RECEIVED, and POSSESSED Carcano Rifle No. C2766 in the calendar year of nineteen sixty-three.
For the ultimate in "Rifle Denial", check out my "Money Order" page here....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html#The-File-Locator-Number-On-The-Hidell-Money-Order
And for the ultimate in "SBT Denial"....
http://single-bullet-theory.blogspot.com/#Debating-The-SBT
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Nothing illustrates the constant denial of CTers like this topic of "Oswald Owned The Rifle". And I see that nothing has changed here in 2018, with virtually all Internet CTers deciding to totally ignore the vast evidence (of varying types) that prove that Lee Oswald ORDERED, PAID FOR, RECEIVED, and POSSESSED Carcano Rifle No. C2766 in the calendar year of nineteen sixty-three.
For the ultimate in "Rifle Denial", check out my "Money Order" page here....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html#The-File-Locator-Number-On-The-Hidell-Money-Order
And for the ultimate in "SBT Denial"....
http://single-bullet-theory.blogspot.com/#Debating-The-SBT
I asked you a straight forward question;
The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact.
Please explain in detail how Waldman 7 proves that the rifle was mailed to the P.O. Box?
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
Instead of linking to your propaganda sites, why don't you simply try to answer the questions?
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Now you're just being silly, Martin. As if you can't even imagine what the "implication" would be of LHO's buying and owning the weapon that killed the President. A kindergartner knows the answer to that one (and the one about Waldman 7 too), but (incredibly) Martin Weidmann needs these simple things explained to him with an easel and a diagram. Geesh.
The CTers on this forum are sure snotty as all get out today. (Or is it just today?) No wonder I don't post here very often anymore.
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No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it.
Ignorance strikes again; apart from the problem that there is absolutely no conclusive evidence to support the claim that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photo is the same one that was ordered from Klein's or the one that was found at the TSBD, according to Richard Smith, being photographed holding a rifle means you own that rifle! Hilarious!
Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number.
There are no such documents.
His prints are on the rifle.
No there were not. The FBI didn't find any prints...... Only days later, Lt Day produced a card with one print on it which he claimed came from the rifle. That's the same guy who believed Frazier about the bag and came up with the silly theory that the heavy bag he had could have been concealed in the flimsy bag Frazier had seen Oswald carry.
It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine.
No. It's difficult to understand how you could be so extremely gullible as you seem to be.....
His prints are on the rifle.
No there were not. The FBI didn't find any prints......
The FACT that Lee's prints weren't all over that Carcano simply screams of a framing of Lee Oswald......
IF the TSBD carcano had been the same rifle sent from Kleins and the same photo that is seen in Lee's hand in CE 133A and the De Morhebschildt copy then ther would have been documentaion that the rifle was Lee's and it would have been foolish and futile to wipe away any prints on the rifle.....BUT...the rifle HAD been wiped clean..... Only someone who was planting that rifle would have worried about any finger prints being on that rifle......
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Now you're just being silly, Martin. As if you can't even imagine what the "implication" would be of LHO's buying and owning the weapon that killed the President. A kindergartner knows the answer to that one (and the one about Waldman 7 too), but (incredibly) Martin Weidmann needs these simple things explained to him with an easel and a diagram. Geesh.
The CTers on this forum are sure snotty as all get out today. (Or is it just today?) No wonder I don't post here very often anymore.
That's the best you can do?
Martin Weidmann needs these simple things explained to him
Yes indeed.... but it seems you are unable to explain it.
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Which rifle? The order form in evidence is for a 36" Carbine. The alleged murder weapon is a 40" Short Rifle.
That's right, Rob. Keep pretending you don't know how to figure that easy one out. CTers have been pretending the "36 vs. 40 inch" thing is critically important for decades. It's not, of course. And everybody here knows why it's not. But they'll continue to pretend anyway.
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Which rifle? The order form in evidence is for a 36" Carbine. The alleged murder weapon is a 40" Short Rifle.
Klein's were mailing out rifles weighing 51/2 lbs at the time (going by your contention that the ad details were precise)?
The lightest-weight for a Carcano rifle was slightly over 61/3 lbs.
The very next Klein's ad would show a 40" length for the same base rifle (cat. no. and price remained the same).
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That's the best you can do?
Martin Weidmann needs these simple things explained to him
Yes indeed.... but it seems you are unable to explain it.
I already have. It seemingly does not require any explanation but that presumes that you have a functioning brain which apparently is not the case. Therein lies the problem. All the explaining in the world can't fix that.
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I already have. It seemingly does not require any explanation but that presumes that you have a functioning brain which apparently is not the case. Therein lies the problem. All the explaining in the world can't fix that.
Here is the best evidence so far that poor Richard doesn't actually read the posts he is replying to, because here he is replying (if that's what you can call it) to something I said to David von Pein. My question to him is actually in another thread!
What one can take away from David's and Richard's replies to my questions so far is that they both claim it is so extremely easy that anybody can understand yet both seem completely unable to actually provide a simple explanation....
I wonder why...... No wait, I don't wonder why. I know why. The honest answers to those questions scare the sh*t out of them!
So, here are the questions for both again;
For Richard;
Also this may highlight an important distinction. I believe Frazier was telling the truth to the best of his ability about the bag. He honestly but erroneously thought that the bag was shorter than it was. He was wrong but not lying.
Ah.. the classic LN default position.... Frazier and Randle were simply mistaken about the size of the bag....
But what of the fact that Frazier was being polygraphed when he was shown the TSBD bag In it's original state) for the first time. The polygraph didn't register a lie, because we would have heard about if it did. Yet Frazier instantly dismissed the TSBD bag as the one he had seen Oswald carry that same morning. And not only that, but (according to James Anderson's memo to SAC Dallas) he also described Oswald's bag as "definitely a thin, flimsy sack like the one purchased in a dime store"..... and guess what Lt Day believed him!
None of this has anything to do whatsoever with size estimates... so how do you explain that, Richard?
For David;
The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact.
Please explain in detail how Waldman 7 proves that the rifle was mailed to the P.O. Box?
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
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Oh, that's why postal inspector Holmes was told by the FBI to go look for a money order in the amount of $21.95 and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963.
Good! Tom Sorensen is now going to pretend that there isn't a perfectly reasonable and rational explanation for the "21.95" and "March 20" discrepancies.
And the March 20th thing is hardly a discrepancy or a mistake in the first place, because Mar. 20 WAS the date of shipment for the rifle by Klein's. That's hardly a reason to conclude there's something suspicious about the rifle order. But apparently it's enough of a reason for some CTers to cry foul.
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Good! Tom Sorensen is now going to pretend that there isn't a perfectly reasonable and rational explanation for the "21.95" and "March 20" discrepancies.
And the March 20th thing is hardly a discrepancy or a mistake in the first place, because Mar. 20 WAS the date of shipment for the rifle by Klein's. That's hardly a reason to conclude there's something suspicious about the rifle order. But apparently it's enough of a reason for some CTers to cry foul.
Still trying to avoid answering questions I see....
Preaching to the converted and complaining about those nasty CT non believers is easier, I suppose.
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So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle? LOL. You can't be for real. Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting, fled the scene within minutes, and lied about owning a rifle. How about consulting Sherlock Holmes to determine the "implications" if you can't figure it out on your own?
Figuring Out the Implications
To CTers the implications are obvious.
What are the implications of a rifle ordered by Oswald being found in the building he worked in?
Obvious. If the rifle was ordered by Oswald it must have been planted by someone else. Certainly not Oswald. There are any number of suspects who were not seen bringing a long package into the building who are much stronger candidates than Oswald.
Or, if it was done by Oswald, he must have been just following orders. He did not realize the implications of being ordered to bring his rifle or a long package into work on the same day the President was driving by. And the implications of being told to be by himself and out of sight as the President was driven by.
What are the implications of Oswald?s prints on the rifle?
Obvious. The prints were planted on the rifle after Oswald was killed. But why not before the assassination? Oswald never encountered an order he wouldn?t obey.
What are the implications of Oswald?s leaving work immediately, going home briefly and sneaking into a theater with a handgun?
Obvious.
After the assassination, Oswald finally put the pieces together. Ordered to bring his rifle to work. Ordered to stay by himself. Ordered to stay out of sight. The President suddenly murdered by gunshots. Oswald didn?t need anyone to spell it out for him. He was being setup.
Naturally he would panic, immediately flee, go pickup his gun and report to the theater he was instructed to go to. Where he was surprised a second time to learn that this was just to set him up as the murderer of a police officer.
One can observe that with Oswald:
1. Instructed to make a long bag at work.
2. Instructed to return to Mrs. Paine?s home.
3. Instructed to use the bag to sneak his rifle into work, or at least bring the long bag to work.
4. Instructed to stay by himself while the President was driven by the building.
5. Instructed to stay out of sight while the President was driven by the building.
6. Heard about the President being shot to death.
7. Instructed to report to the Texas Theater by 1:30.
he was not very good at figuring out the implications. One would think he could put the pieces together by Step 5 at the latest.
But was he really a lot worse than the CTers?
It sounds to me that Oswald would have been a great CTer.
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Figuring Out the Implications
To CTers the implications are obvious.
What are the implications of a rifle ordered by Oswald being found in the building he worked in?
Obvious. If the rifle was ordered by Oswald it must have been planted by someone else. Certainly not Oswald. There are any number of suspects who were not seen bringing a long package into the building who are much stronger candidates than Oswald.
Or, if it was done by Oswald, he must have been just following orders. He did not realize the implications of being ordered to bring his rifle or a long package into work on the same day the President was driving by. And the implications of being told to be by himself and out of sight as the President was driven by.
What are the implications of Oswald?s prints on the rifle?
Obvious. The prints were planted on the rifle after Oswald was killed. But why not before the assassination? Oswald never encountered an order he wouldn?t obey.
What are the implications of Oswald?s leaving work immediately, going home briefly and sneaking into a theater with a handgun?
Obvious.
After the assassination, Oswald finally put the pieces together. Ordered to bring his rifle to work. Ordered to stay by himself. Ordered to stay out of sight. The President suddenly murdered by gunshots. Oswald didn?t need anyone to spell it out for him. He was being setup.
Naturally he would panic, immediately flee, go pickup his gun and report to the theater he was instructed to go to. Where he was surprised a second time to learn that this was just to set him up as the murderer of a police officer.
One can observe that with Oswald:
1. Instructed to make a long bag at work.
2. Instructed to return to Mrs. Paine?s home.
3. Instructed to use the bag to sneak his rifle into work, or at least bring the long bag to work.
4. Instructed to stay by himself while the President was driven by the building.
5. Instructed to stay out of sight while the President was driven by the building.
6. Heard about the President being shot to death.
7. Instructed to report to the Texas Theater by 1:30.
he was not very good at figuring out the implications. One would think he could put the pieces together by Step 5 at the latest.
But was he really a lot worse than the CTers?
It sounds to me that Oswald would have been a great CTer.
Great. Another LN who is "answering" questions that were not asked and not answering the ones that were asked....
Must be some sort of a conspiracy.... :-\
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Figuring Out the Implications
To CTers the implications are obvious.
What are the implications of a rifle ordered by Oswald being found in the building he worked in?
Obvious. If the rifle was ordered by Oswald it must have been planted by someone else. Certainly not Oswald. There are any number of suspects who were not seen bringing a long package into the building who are much stronger candidates than Oswald.
Or, if it was done by Oswald, he must have been just following orders. He did not realize the implications of being ordered to bring his rifle or a long package into work on the same day the President was driving by. And the implications of being told to be by himself and out of sight as the President was driven by.
What are the implications of Oswald?s prints on the rifle?
Obvious. The prints were planted on the rifle after Oswald was killed. But why not before the assassination? Oswald never encountered an order he wouldn?t obey.
What are the implications of Oswald?s leaving work immediately, going home briefly and sneaking into a theater with a handgun?
Obvious.
After the assassination, Oswald finally put the pieces together. Ordered to bring his rifle to work. Ordered to stay by himself. Ordered to stay out of sight. The President suddenly murdered by gunshots. Oswald didn?t need anyone to spell it out for him. He was being setup.
Naturally he would panic, immediately flee, go pickup his gun and report to the theater he was instructed to go to. Where he was surprised a second time to learn that this was just to set him up as the murderer of a police officer.
One can observe that with Oswald:
1. Instructed to make a long bag at work.
2. Instructed to return to Mrs. Paine?s home.
3. Instructed to use the bag to sneak his rifle into work, or at least bring the long bag to work.
4. Instructed to stay by himself while the President was driven by the building.
5. Instructed to stay out of sight while the President was driven by the building.
6. Heard about the President being shot to death.
7. Instructed to report to the Texas Theater by 1:30.
he was not very good at figuring out the implications. One would think he could put the pieces together by Step 5 at the latest.
But was he really a lot worse than the CTers?
It sounds to me that Oswald would have been a great CTer.
He did not realize the implications of being ordered to bring his rifle or a long package into work on the same day the President was driving by. And the implications of being told to be by himself and out of sight as the President was driven by.
Ordered by?? Whom??..... Lee thought that he was pulling another hoax like the Walker hoax..... Nobody had to tell him that if he made it to Cuba that if a photo surfaced that showed him as a spectator at the time h was supposed to be taking a pot shot at JFK.....That photo would be an invitation to attend Castro's firing squad....as a participant.
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He did not realize the implications of being ordered to bring his rifle or a long package into work on the same day the President was driving by. And the implications of being told to be by himself and out of sight as the President was driven by.
Ordered by?? Whom??..... Lee thought that he was pulling another hoax like the Walker hoax..... Nobody had to tell him that if he made it to Cuba that if a photo surfaced that showed him as a spectator at the time h was supposed to be taking a pot shot at JFK.....That photo would be an invitation to attend Castro's firing squad....as a participant.
The Walker shooting was a hoax?
The bullet went through glass and wood and barely missed Walker?s head.
Question:
How did the shooter know that the glass and wood would not deflect the bullet enough from a near miss to a hit?
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You are the one pretending Dave as there is no evidence showing that LHO ever ordered a 40" rifle. None. There then is no evidence that shows any rifle was ever delivered to his P.O. Box.
Why not cite your evidence?
It's not difficult Rob/Bob, Oswald ordered C2766 and Oswald received C2766.
(https://s17.postimg.org/ou71ij4u7/oswald_ordered_and_received_C2766.jpg)
JohnM
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Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
What would be the implication of Oswald ordering that rifle? LOL. You can't be for real. Let's think real hard. That rifle along with fired bullet casings from it were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. The owner of that rifle worked in the building, had no credible alibi for the time of the shooting, fled the scene within minutes, and lied about owning a rifle. How about consulting Sherlock Holmes to determine the "implications" if you can't figure it out on your own?
Also, fragments found inside the limo were linked to C2766 to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world.
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Answer a simple question and forget all your babbling. What evidence would prove to your subjective loony satisfaction that Oswald owned the rifle found on the 6th floor if the current record does not do so? Or are you basically arguing that it is not possible to ever prove such a thing?
No... but it would require better evidence than the Klein's crap we have in this case.
Richard, I've asked this question before and it was ignored then just as Weidmann ignored it presently.
It's a very simple question and anyone who claims to be interested in discussing the case (versus ad hominem attacks) would make a better attempt to answer the question instead of dodging it.
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I asked you a straight forward question;
Instead of linking to your propaganda sites, why don't you simply try to answer the questions?
Pot meet kettle.
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Was there ever any receipt for the ammo clip?
Steve Thomas
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Here is the best evidence so far that poor Richard doesn't actually read the posts he is replying to, because here he is replying (if that's what you can call it) to something I said to David von Pein. My question to him is actually in another thread!
What one can take away from David's and Richard's replies to my questions so far is that they both claim it is so extremely easy that anybody can understand yet both seem completely unable to actually provide a simple explanation....
I wonder why...... No wait, I don't wonder why. I know why. The honest answers to those questions scare the sh*t out of them!
So, here are the questions for both again;
For Richard;
For David;
Do you have some of type of head injury? You appear to be really confused. I responded to your question to David in this thread regarding the implications of Oswald buying a rifle as anyone can see from looking back to the first page of this thread. Why you are crying about another thread is bizarre and unclear. Instead of wasting our time with crazy nonsense like this how about tell us what evidence is lacking from the record that we should have but don't that would satisfy you that Oswald ordered this rifle? Try to focus.
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The Walker shooting was a hoax?
The bullet went through glass and wood and barely missed Walker?s head.
Question:
How did the shooter know that the glass and wood would not deflect the bullet enough from a near miss to a hit?
The Walker shooting was a hoax?
Yes.....The Walker incident was a hoax.... If you would extract your head then you might be able to see.....
The bullet went through glass and wood and barely missed Walker?s head.
You don't have a clue...... Question: How high above the floor is the bullet hole in the photo of the wall? The bullet exited the wall in the adjacent room behind a stack of books ....How high is that bullet hole?.... Do you believe that Walker was crawling around on the floor at the time the bullet hit that wall?
Question:
How did the shooter know that the glass and wood would not deflect the bullet enough from a near miss to a hit?
Huh??? Can you ask the question in an intelligent manner ?
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The bullet went through glass and wood and barely missed Walker?s head.
You don't have a clue...... Question: How high above the floor is the bullet hole in the photo of the wall? The bullet exited the wall in the adjacent room behind a stack of books ....How high is that bullet hole?.... Do you believe that Walker was crawling around on the floor at the time the bullet hit that wall?
Not sure about an actual measurement, but we have an estimate from Surrey's WC testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that leads me to ask you this, Mr. Surrey: That bullet hole is how high from the floor? I am showing you now Commission Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. SURREY. You mean how high is the hole----
Mr. JENNER. From the floor.
Mr. SURREY. From the floor? Well, the police went into the next room and so did I, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SURREY. And when Walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head.
Mr. JENNER. So he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on?
Mr. SURREY. Yes, and he is approximately a little taller than I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is a little taller than you are. So that would be about 4, 4 1/2 feet.
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Not sure about an actual measurement, but we have an estimate from Surrey's WC testimony.
Have you seen the photo?? It's definitely not four feet up from the floor.....
The bullet was fired from the top of a fence in the alley that was above (higher in elevation) than the window sash, therefore it was traveling in a downward trajectory. The window sash was about four feet up from the floor and the bullet would have been deflected DOWN by that sash ....
That bullet could only have come close to Walker's head if he had been sitting on the floor.
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The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact.
No it doesn't. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 is an "order blank", not a shipping document. And the microfilm from which that was allegedly printed is now "missing". Darn the luck.
And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle (with William Waldman of Klein's verifying this fact in his WC testimony),
How do you know when it was stamped and by whom? How did Waldman even know?
and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing the "Hidell" money order into their bank account.
What is your evidence that the specific money order found in Virginia was deposited into Klein's bank account?
And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.
"all over it". LOL. Even if it does, what connects this particular money order with Klein's order #270502 other than the amount?
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
It has reasonable doubt "all over it".
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He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus. He left within minutes. Got a cab for the first time. Not even pausing to ascertain what was going on. Even after a police officer pulled a gun on him. Oswald was in full flight murdering a police officer. Flight doesn't mean he was running away in a panic as some CTers mistakenly suggest constitutes flight. He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight). No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it. Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number. His prints are on the rifle. It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine. What evidence do you believe we should have that we do not under that circumstances that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the MC rifle?
So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start. Only in Smith-land is taking a cab for the first time evidence of murder. That goes right up there with leaving a wedding ring behind and not being chatty with the cab driver.
He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight).
And you know this, how?
No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it.
And you know this, how?
Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number.
There are no documents that show this rifle was "sent to him".
His prints are on the rifle.
You mean a partial palmprint attributed to him was found on an index card a week later.
It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine.
It is difficult to understand why you think your hollow claims constitute evidence.
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Now you're just being silly, Martin. As if you can't even imagine what the "implication" would be of LHO's buying and owning the weapon that killed the President.
There's no evidence that this weapon killed the president. That's another unfounded assumption.
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I already have. It seemingly does not require any explanation but that presumes that you have a functioning brain which apparently is not the case. Therein lies the problem. All the explaining in the world can't fix that.
Meet the new forum. Same as the old forum.
Richard still thinks that insults make his faulty arguments any less faulty.
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Also, fragments found inside the limo were linked to C2766 to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world.
...and you know that the fragments commonly known as CE567 and CE569 were "found inside the limo" ...how, exactly? And if they were, you know that they were fired at 12:30 PM CST on November 22, 1963 in Dealey Plaza....how, exactly?
You know, the fragments that were so mangled that Robert Frazier had to line the marks up "in his mind" because they did not line up with a test bullet under the microscope.
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/poatalregs2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/postalregs.jpg)
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It should be noted that Waldman was a company vice-president with no personal involvement with the processing and shipping of orders.
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What evidence do you believe we should have that we do not under that circumstances that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the MC rifle?
I don't know if there is any evidence that could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald owned the rifle allegedly found on the 6th floor, but that doesn't entitle you to lie about the evidence that does exist.
I can think of a few things that would make your case stronger though:
- any USPS documentation of the alleged shipment from Klein's to PO box 2915
- original documents
- a signed and dated signature form from whoever picked up such a package
- an eyewitness description of the person who picked up such a package
- any evidence, eyewitness or otherwise, placing that specific rifle (not just one that resembled it) in Oswald's possession at any time
But this is all a red herring, because proving that he owned C2766 doesn't actually tell you anything about who killed the president.
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Interesting ? I found a rare and over-looked book by ballistics expert Edward P. Rem from the 1990's, which proves Oswald was the lone and only assassin. I believe you can still get it on Amazon. Here's the old link: https://www.amazon.com/J-F-K-Assassination-Rifle-Phenomenon-Exploded/dp/0972643052
That's just silly. How can the identity of a shooter be determined ballistically?
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/poatalregs2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/postalregs.jpg)
Do you think a large city PO checks the name on mail against a particular name list for that PO Box, and does this for tens-of-thousands of PO Boxes everyday?
Or is the person who is supposed to mark "addressee unknown" typically the owner of the mail box; and the entity charged with returning the unwanted mail is the PO?
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I don't know if there is any evidence that could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald owned the rifle allegedly found on the 6th floor, but that doesn't entitle you to lie about the evidence that does exist.
I can think of a few things that would make your case stronger though:
- any USPS documentation of the alleged shipment from Klein's to PO box 2915
- original documents
- a signed and dated signature form from whoever picked up such a package
- an eyewitness description of the person who picked up such a package
- any evidence, eyewitness or otherwise, placing that specific rifle (not just one that resembled it) in Oswald's possession at any time
But this is all a red herring, because proving that he owned C2766 doesn't actually tell you anything about who killed the president.
None of which is required or would reasonably be expected to exist but if we did have any such evidence you would simply dismiss it as a potentially suspect just like you dismiss the existing evidence. If Oswald had signed and dated some form indicating he had picked up the package, you would dismiss that just as you dismiss the rifle order form in his handwriting. A postal clerk is supposed to remember who picked up a package eight months or so after the fact? And you would accept that general ID as proof that it was Oswald? Right. Keep dreaming. What you are basically arguing is that it is impossible to prove to you that Oswald ordered the rifle. I haven't lied about any evidence. It is a matter of public record. Because you claim all evidence against Oswald is the product of fakery or lies doesn't mean it does not exist. It means you have an impossible subjective standard of proof on the topic.
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Do you think a large city PO checks the name on mail against a particular name list for that PO Box, and does this for tens-of-thousands of PO Boxes everyday?
Then what's the point of having that on the application? To provide jobs to form printers?
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None of which is required or would reasonably be expected to exist but if we did have any such evidence you would simply dismiss it as a potentially suspect just like you dismiss the existing evidence.
Strawman. It's not my fault that your case is weak, circumstantial, and rhetorical.
I haven't lied about any evidence.
You certainly have. Repeatedly.
:pointdown:
Oswald was in full flight murdering a police officer. Flight doesn't mean he was running away in a panic as some CTers mistakenly suggest constitutes flight. He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight). No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it. Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number. His prints are on the rifle.
Because you claim all evidence against Oswald is the product of fakery or lies doesn't mean it does not exist
Another lie. Quote me ever saying that "all evidence against Oswald is the product of fakery or lies".
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Strawman. It's not my fault that your case is weak, circumstantial, and rhetorical.
You certainly have. Repeatedly.
:pointdown:
Another lie. Quote me ever saying that "all evidence against Oswald is the product of fakery or lies".
You are too dishonest or nutty to own up to claiming all evidence is faked or the product of lies. Rather, you do this in each individual instance which proves the point over and over again. And the evidence in this case has nothing to do with your nutty posts on an Internet forum. I'm not sure why you are posting my point about Oswald being in flight after the assassination as proof of a lie unless you erroneously believe a criminal can only be in flight if he runs away in a panic. The basic concept of flight is leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension. Which is exactly what Oswald did.
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I don't know if there is any evidence that could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald owned the rifle allegedly found on the 6th floor, but that doesn't entitle you to lie about the evidence that does exist.
I can think of a few things that would make your case stronger though:
- any USPS documentation of the alleged shipment from Klein's to PO box 2915
- original documents
- a signed and dated signature form from whoever picked up such a package
- an eyewitness description of the person who picked up such a package
- any evidence, eyewitness or otherwise, placing that specific rifle (not just one that resembled it) in Oswald's possession at any time
But this is all a red herring, because proving that he owned C2766 doesn't actually tell you anything about who killed the president.
any evidence, eyewitness or otherwise, placing that specific rifle (not just one that resembled it) in Oswald's possession at any time
I'm sure that you know that the BY photo CE 133A shows Lee Oswald holding a mannlicher carcano.... But that rifle is quite different than the mannlicher carcano that was found wiped clean of finger prints, and well hidden beneath boxes of books in the TSBD. The rifle shown in CE 133A had no sling..... Someone had "penciled in" a silly looking rendition of a sling ( looks like something Elmer Fudd had attached to his shotgun) on the BY photo.
The rifle that was found in the TSBD had a HEAVY black leather, sling attached to it..... There are photos that were taken as FBI agent Vince Drain carried the rifle on the night of 11/22/63 that show the sling to be made from HEAVY leather The rifle that was presented to the Warren Commission had a flimsy light weight leather sling attached to it.
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You are too dishonest or nutty to own up to claiming all evidence is faked or the product of lies. Rather, you do this in each individual instance which proves the point over and over again. And the evidence in this case has nothing to do with your nutty posts on an Internet forum. I'm not sure why you are posting my point about Oswald being in flight after the assassination as proof of a lie unless you erroneously believe a criminal can only be in flight if he runs away in a panic. The basic concept of flight is leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension. Which is exactly what Oswald did.
You are too dishonest or nutty to own up to claiming all evidence is faked or the product of lies.
Hang on, wasn't it you who wrote this;
Because you claim all evidence against Oswald is the product of fakery or lies doesn't mean it does not exist.
So first you lie about John claiming that and now you switch to him being too dishonest or nutty to make that claim?
Talk about dishonesty; you just exposed your own lie, fool.... now own it!
And the evidence in this case has nothing to do with your nutty posts on an Internet forum.
It's always funny when Richard throws a tantrum and talks gibberish....
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You are too dishonest or nutty to own up to claiming all evidence is faked or the product of lies.
Then stop claiming that I do, if you don't like being called a liar.
Rather, you do this in each individual instance which proves the point over and over again.
Really? Then you should be able to quote these individual examples. But you can't because you are Mr. Dishonest Strawman Argument. What I point out in each case is that the evidence doesn't actually show what you claim it does.
And the evidence in this case has nothing to do with your nutty posts on an Internet forum. I'm not sure why you are posting my point about Oswald being in flight after the assassination as proof of a lie unless you erroneously believe a criminal can only be in flight if he runs away in a panic.
Uh, because you claimed without any evidence that he left to avoid apprehension. Do you know this because of your mad mindreading skilz, or are you stating your speculations as fact? Again.
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The order form depicts a 36" Carbine. The alleged murder weapon is a 40" model. There is NO evidence supporting the claim that LHO received a rifle at his P.O. Box. None.
If you disagree then cite it.
This isn't brain surgery, the warehouse received an order for C20-T750 and they sent out C20-T750. Case Closed!
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TD6-J7zrPxI/AAAAAAAAEyU/MBp6S6rfvvg/s530/CE773.jpg)
(https://s17.postimg.org/ou71ij4u7/oswald_ordered_and_received_C2766.jpg)
JohnM
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The order form depicts a 36" Carbine. The alleged murder weapon is a 40" model. There is NO evidence supporting the claim that LHO received a rifle at his P.O. Box. None.
If you disagree then cite it.
What is "depicted" in the ad is a modified M91 Carcano (the original Carcano model) shortened from its 50.6" factory length to about 41".
What was described is a 36" Cacano that weighs 5.5 lbs. Like the model in the illustration, it also was a type of Carcano the company wasn't shipping. What they were shipping were 40" Carcano, which ads following this one described as that length (and a few ads later on, the weight was corrected).
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What is "depicted" in the ad is a modified M91 Carcano (the original Carcano model) shortened from its 50.6" factory length to about 41".
What was described is a 36" Cacano that weighs 5.5 lbs. Like the model in the illustration, it also was a type of Carcano the company wasn't shipping. What they were shipping were 40" Carcano, which ads following this one described as that length (and a few ads later on, the weight was corrected).
Organ is right......
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What is "depicted" in the ad is a modified M91 Carcano (the original Carcano model) shortened from its 50.6" factory length to about 41".
What was described is a 36" Cacano that weighs 5.5 lbs. Like the model in the illustration, it also was a type of Carcano the company wasn't shipping. What they were shipping were 40" Carcano, which ads following this one described as that length (and a few ads later on, the weight was corrected).
I don't think that these cheap Italian Carcanos were much of a priority for Kleins considering the profit margin and they probably made more money on the scopes and ammo.
The following ads were both from April 1963 gun magazines and both show the same serial number C20-T750 but have differing weights and lengths but realistically from Kleins POV both rifles took the same ammo and the 40 inch was bonus so what's the problem?, it was a win win situation! It's not like a pair of shoes which must be an exact size, in the Carcano 6.5mm World it was one size fits all.
(https://s17.postimg.org/sxcrpl8pb/April_Kleins_ads.jpg)
It seems that Oswald made his paper bag assuming that he received the 36 inch rifle, the look on Oswald's face when he realized his 38 inch bag wouldn't fit his 40 inch rifle would have been priceless! Hahaha!
(https://s17.postimg.org/5x64dbg1b/Oswald_s_rifle_bag.jpg)
JohnM
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You still have not cited evidence showing that LHO ever received a rifle at his P.O. Box.
Oswald was photographed with C2766.
(http://www.famouspictures.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/CE-133-all.jpg)
JohnM
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Nice try, but research shows that the catalog number on the order form was attached to a 36" Carbine. Kleins had no 40" models until April 1963.
I meant the description. The rifle displayed is irrelevant to the discussion. Can you cite evidence showing that LHO received a rifle at his P. O. Box?
The 40" Carcanos cost Klein's a dollar more from the wholesalers. When does the price in the Klein's ads change?
In ads that began in magazines dated August 1962, the advertised price of the base rifle increased one dollar to $12.88 (the "package deal" for the base rifle with a scope remained at $19.95). The Cat. No. also changed to C20-T1196. In ads running April 1963 and onwards, Klein's were selling 40" Carcanos for $12.88 and with Cat. No. C20-T1196.
Evidently, the illustration, length and weigh were in error if Klein's is amending those details as time goes on BUT keeping the Cat. No. and $12.88 price.
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That is not evidence that a rifle was received at his P.O. Box. You're sunk.
Yeah whatever;
Oswald ordered a Carcano Rifle from Kleins.
Oswald was sent a Carcano(C2766) from Kleins.
Oswald was photographed with a Carcano(C2766).
Oswald's rifle was discovered on the 6th floor at about the same time Oswald was on the run after killing a Police Officer.
JohnM
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There was no "T" in the Field & Stream ad in evidence. Read my post as it lays all this out. Bottom line -- Klein's had NO 40" models to ship on purpose or by accident in March 1963.
Huh? Kleins received C2766 in February.
(https://s17.postimg.org/d8682u6a7/waldman_ex_4.jpg)
JohnM
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If you actually did any research instead of simply regurgitating what you were told you would realize that C2766 tied to a 36" Carbine. I will say it again since you keep ignoring it -- Klein's did not sell 40" models until April.
The evidence which you have not yet refuted can be traced from Crescent Firearms through to Kleins then on to Oswald and the Depository.
(https://s17.postimg.org/c8fx7dr73/Waldman_Exhibit1.jpg)
(https://s17.postimg.org/wftczogyn/Riflead1.jpg)
(http://www.famouspictures.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/CE-133-all.jpg)
(https://s17.postimg.org/cl7bdkh6n/C2766isinevidence.jpg)
JohmM
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The Commission provided no evidence that the control numbers on those sheets were entered into the master log so you can stuff Waldman 4 where the sun doesn't shine.
Further, if the two sheets existed on the Nov 22/23 Klein's would immediately have produced them when the FBI showed up. All they had to do was browse the orders on micro film looking for VC-836/2766, starting Feb 22. Supposedly C 2766 was shipped Mar 20 so they only had to go through one month of orders to spot C 2766.
Instead we are told they spent the whole night, using two viewers, looking for C 2766!
The Commission provided no evidence that the control numbers on those sheets were entered into the master log so you can stuff Waldman 4 where the sun doesn't shine.
Tom, Waldman 4 was presented by the Vice President of the company and is a legal document and that's where it ends.
Further, if the two sheets existed on the Nov 22/23 Klein's would immediately have produced them when the FBI showed up. All they had to do was browse the orders on micro film looking for VC-836/2766, starting Feb 22. Supposedly C 2766 was shipped Mar 20 so they only had to go through one month of orders to spot C 2766.
Instead we are told they spent the whole night, using two viewers, looking for C 2766!
Kleins advertised across the country and sold sporting goods, more than just rifles, revolvers, shotguns, ammo, scopes and pistols, so tell us how you know how many microfilms that they processed and how do you know how much data they had to scan through?
Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?
Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.
Orders from 1 day.
(https://s17.postimg.org/9zertgj7j/waldan_10.jpg)
JohnM
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It seems that Oswald made his paper bag assuming that he received the 36 inch rifle, the look on Oswald's face when he realized his 38 inch bag wouldn't fit his 40 inch rifle would have been priceless! Hahaha!
"It seems". LOL.
It seems that if Oswald wanted to make a paper bag for a rifle that was in the Paine's garage, he would have used the wrapping paper and tape that was already in that garage rather than risk getting fired for stealing supplies before he could pull off his big event. Particularly since Troy West didn't leave his wrapping station even for lunch.
Silly assassin.
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Oswald was photographed with C2766.
Oswald was photographed with a firearm that Mytton wishes was C2766.
There, I fixed it for you.
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Klein's received and catalogued C2766 on 22/2/1963
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QhiWATIhMQk/T8-q6XpGM4I/AAAAAAAAAT0/XgsuPF9C0RE/s1600/63-10.jpeg)
How many different C2766s were there? (http://rs1190.pbsrc.com/albums/z459/lfelle/scratching-head-smiley-emoticon_zpslaymac0t.gif?w=70&h=53&fit=crop)
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"It seems". LOL.
It seems that if Oswald wanted to make a paper bag for a rifle that was in the Paine's garage, he would have used the wrapping paper and tape that was already in that garage rather than risk getting fired for stealing supplies before he could pull off his big event. Particularly since Troy West didn't leave his wrapping station even for lunch.
Silly assassin.
Troy West never left his station even to go to the bathroom or go home? LOL. Can you even show us that Troy West was even there all that week? I seem to recall he was only asked about Nov. 22. And Oswald would be fired for stealing some paper? That must have been a real risk for the guy who planned to kill the president! I'm surprised that didn't deter him. You are too much. That is the funniest single thing I've read here in a long while. You are beginning to make Caprio seem mildly intelligent by comparison. You should be embarrassed.
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Troy West never left his station even to go to the bathroom or go home? LOL. Can you even show us that Troy West was even there all that week? I seem to recall he was only asked about Nov. 22.
Oswald constructed a homemade 38-inch paper bag with wrapping paper and tape in the time that Troy West was taking a piss. You're funny.
And Oswald would be fired for stealing some paper?
It's you guys who use that as a lame excuse for why Frazier didn't see this alleged bag on Thursday evening. Remember? He stuffed it in his shirt to hide it even though he had already told Frazier he was going to Irving to pick up curtain rods. You're right, it's hilarious.
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Oswald constructed a homemade 38-inch paper bag with wrapping paper and tape in the time that Troy West was taking a piss. You're funny.
It's you guys who use that as a lame excuse for why Frazier didn't see this alleged bag on Thursday evening. Remember? He stuffed it in his shirt to hide it even though he had already told Frazier he was going to Irving to pick up curtain rods. You're right, it's hilarious.
Oswald constructed a homemade 38-inch paper bag with wrapping paper and tape in the time that Troy West was taking a piss. You're funny.
Yep, West slept under the wrapping table and he raised five kids at that very spot!
JohnM
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Yep, West slept under the wrapping table and he raised five kids at that very spot!
Do you have any reason to believe that Troy West got off work earlier than Oswald?
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Oswald constructed a homemade 38-inch paper bag with wrapping paper and tape in the time that Troy West was taking a piss. You're funny.
Who said he "constructed" the bag while standing right at West's mailing table? I haven't seen anyone suggest any such thing. You're funny.
Oswald could have simply swiped the paper and tape while West was gone from his station for a very few seconds. Why is that scenario impossible in the CT world?
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Who said he "constructed" the bag while standing right at West's mailing table? I haven't seen anyone suggest any such thing. You're funny.
Oswald could have simply swiped the paper and tape while West was gone from his station for a very few seconds. Why is that scenario impossible in the CT world?
Mr. WEST - Well, we have those machines with the little round ball that we fill them up with water, and so we set them up. In to--other words, I got a rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, and whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you know, it gets water on it as we pull it through.
Mr. BELIN - If I wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without getting water on it, would I just lift it up without going over the wet roller and get the tape without getting it wet?
Mr. WEST - You would have to take it out. You would have to take it out of the machine. See, it's put on there and then run through a little clamp that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it gets water on it.
The tape had markings from that dispenser on it, right?
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Mr. WEST - Well, we have those machines with the little round ball that we fill them up with water, and so we set them up. In to--other words, I got a rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, and whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you know, it gets water on it as we pull it through.
Mr. BELIN - If I wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without getting water on it, would I just lift it up without going over the wet roller and get the tape without getting it wet?
Mr. WEST - You would have to take it out. You would have to take it out of the machine. See, it's put on there and then run through a little clamp that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it gets water on it.
The tape had markings from that dispenser on it, right?
This TOPIC is: "Lee Harvey Oswald Ordered The Rifle" and now it has become a discussion about the paper sack that Oswald used to smuggle the rifle into the TSBD.
However: Lee Harvey Oswald could have taken paper from a "new" roll that had yet to be put in the dispenser. Mystery solved.
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This TOPIC is: "Lee Harvey Oswald Ordered The Rifle" and now it has become a discussion about the paper sack that Oswald used to smuggle the rifle into the TSBD.
However: Lee Harvey Oswald could have taken paper from a "new" roll that had yet to be put in the dispenser. Mystery solved.
You mean tape? But then how would it have gotten marks from the dispenser on it?
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You mean tape? But then how would it have gotten marks from the dispenser on it?
I was multi-tasking when I wrote that.
I should have said:
However: Lee Harvey Oswald could have taken TAPE from a "new" roll that had yet to be put in the dispenser. Mystery solved.
If the tape had "marks from the dispenser on it", that proves (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the paper sack was made from materials taken from the TSBD 1st floor wrapping paper/tape dispenser.
This means:
1) Oswald made the paper-sack at the dispenser while no TSBD employee was watching.
2) Oswald somehow manipulated the tape-dispenser so it did not wet the tape when he took some (and paper) intending to make the paper-sack at the Paine's garage on Thursday evening or Friday morning.
3) Oswald "did" remove wet tape from the dispenser; concealed it somewhere; let it dry. He later (at the Paine's garage) wet the tape and used it to make the paper-sack.
4) The Dallas Police constructed the paper-sack to demonstrate how Oswald smuggled the rifle into the TSBD ... and further incriminate him. In this scenario: Dallas police officers smuggled the rifle (Carcano) into the TSBD (before 12:30 pm CST) for the assassin (not Oswald) to use in the murder of JFK.
John,
Assuming that you reject #1, #2 & #3: You need to assign a reason for Dallas Police officers (several) to participate in a plot to murder President John F. Kennedy. I'm assuming you believe they had the "means" and "opportunity". That leaves "motive".
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Do you have any reason to believe that Troy West got off work earlier than Oswald?
Or Oswald got to work a little earlier on Thursday and spent a couple of minutes building his rifle bag.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what time you got to work that particular morning?
Mr. WEST - It was about 10 minutes to 8. I always be 5 or 10 minutes early.
And according to Givens, Oswald got to work early enough to be able to sit down and read the previous day's paper.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.
JohnM
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If only you had any supporting evidence for your blind faith. But alas, you do not.
It was you who restricted the possibilities to one of 4 options. I merely pointed out Tony's excellent analysis that shows another option was possible. As for how a partial finger and palm print were conveniently "discovered" by the FBI on the 23rd, who knows. Doesn?t that same question arise from your option 4? Who actually printed that bag from the DPD on the 22nd? Was it Studebaker in situ or Day at the crime lab, or both, or neither?
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🐂. I have studied the evidence for years and the ONLY thing that it points to is a conspiracy. You can't even show for sure that there was only one rifle with the "C2766" serial number.
Furthermore, the Riva workshop was tasked with REMOVING serial numbers before the rifles were sold to places in America. So why was there any serial number on the alleged murder weapon if it came the way the WC claimed?
I have studied the evidence for years and the ONLY thing that it points to is a conspiracy.
Thanks for the paid political announcement. ::)
You can't even show for sure that there was only one rifle with the "C2766" serial number.
Can you show even 1 Carcano out of the millions made that shared it's serial number with another?
Furthermore, the Riva workshop was tasked with REMOVING serial numbers before the rifles were sold to places in America.
(https://s17.postimg.org/6mptrxtqn/scratch_head.jpg)
In 1934, Congress enacted the National Firearms Act (NFA).
(https://www.pennlago.com/wp-content/uploads/NFA1.png)
JohnM
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Yeah, it's people like you who hack Forums. JohnM
I like your new signature because it's absolutely true, some disgruntled nutter much like yourself who couldn't win an argument with blind Freddy clearly hacked the Forum, it's what you people do, you don't play by the rules! Remember when I exposed your dirty time manipulating trick, nasty.
JohnM
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I like your new signature because it's absolutely true, some disgruntled nutter much like yourself who couldn't win an argument with blind Freddy clearly hacked the Forum, it's what you people do, you don't play by the rules! Remember when I exposed your dirty time manipulating trick, nasty.
JohnM
Just wonderering if you believe I would commit such an act? I expect another question as an answer from you but live in hope. Just like the other questions I asked of you following your previous outburst. Either another question or simply avoided altogether.
How did your report of Martin to Duncan go?
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Remember when I exposed your dirty time manipulating trick, nasty.
JohnM
Please enlighten us all.......I?m sure you have it saved somewhere....go ahead. And please post my response.
You come across as someone who saves all their 'exposures'.
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I like your new signature because it's absolutely true, some disgruntled nutter much like yourself who couldn't win an argument with blind Freddy
JohnM
How does vision impairment link to the lack of ability to debate and rational argument? Do you believe those unfortunate individuals are less intelligent?
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Please enlighten us all.......I?m sure you have it saved somewhere....go ahead. And please post my response.
You come across as someone who saves all their 'exposures'.
Please enlighten us all.......I?m sure you have it saved somewhere....go ahead.
No, I rarely saved anything because it was all there on the Forum, well it was anyway.
And please post my response.
As I said I never recorded it, but later when you crossed the line, I remembered your previous manipulation and did a quick search and countered with this double howitzer!
You come across as someone who saves all their 'exposures'.
Wrong again.
JohnM
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How does vision impairment link to the lack of ability to debate and rational argument? Do you believe those unfortunate individuals are less intelligent?
How does vision impairment link to the lack of ability to debate and rational argument?
You don't know the term "Blind Freddy" and you call yourself Australian???
Blind Freddie
nounAUSTRALIANinformal
noun: Blind Freddy
an imaginary person supposed to have little or no perception.
"it was obvious to Blind Freddie that there was no real impediment to air safety"
Do you believe those unfortunate individuals are less intelligent?
Your desperation reeks.
JohnM
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I like your new signature because it's absolutely true, some disgruntled nutter much like yourself who couldn't win an argument with blind Freddy clearly hacked the Forum, it's what you people do, you don't play by the rules! Remember when I exposed your dirty time manipulating trick, nasty.
JohnM
Given your inability to back up the claim you made, all should see it for what it is. Do you at least remember what my response was to your claim?
This is important to me John as I value my reputation on this board. I let your "hacking" claim go as merely a knee jerk to the loss of all our material and a misunderstanding. I have never deliberately tried to trick or misinform....ever. When in error I have invariably corrected as soon as made aware.
I thought I made this clear to you in my open reply to you in the thread. The one you chose to ignore.
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Given your inability to back up the claim you made, all should see it for what it is. Do you at least remember what my response was to your claim?
This is important to me John as I value my reputation on this board. I let your "hacking" claim go as merely a knee jerk to the loss of all our material and a misunderstanding. I have never deliberately tried to trick or misinform....ever. When in error I have invariably corrected as soon as made aware.
I thought I made this clear to you in my open reply to you in the thread. The one you chose to ignore.
I remembered you apologizing, and one only apologizes when one does something wrong, yes?
Anyway tell us what you think happened and I will correct you if necessary.
The one you chose to ignore.
I have no idea what you are talking about, I don't go through every post I just respond to the first post I see and go from there, your posts mean nothing to me. You're just another Kook in a long line of Kooks!
JohnM
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I remembered you apologizing, and one only apologizes when one does something wrong, yes?
Anyway tell us what you think happened and I will correct you if necessary.
JohnM
To be honest I cannot remember the detail. I do remember correcting. The joys of getting old and poor health I?m afraid.
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I have no idea what you are talking about, I don't go through every post I just respond to the first post I see and go from there, your posts mean nothing to me. You're just another Kook in a long line of Kooks!
JohnM
This post John, in your thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,19.msg110.html#msg110 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,19.msg110.html#msg110)
You really think I expect to learn anything here anymore?
Look up a quote from a famous catcher for the NY Yankees. Clue....his first name is a cartoon character.
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To be honest I cannot remember the detail. I do remember correcting. The joys of getting old and poor health I?m afraid.
Look I really don't care and the old thread and Forum for whatever reason is gone so lets start fresh and try to debate with honour and dignity.
JohnM
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This post John, in your thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,19.msg110.html#msg110 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,19.msg110.html#msg110)
You really think I think here to learn anything anymore?
Look up a quote from a famous catcher for the NY Yankees. Clue....his first name is a cartoon character.
(https://s17.postimg.org/5zvigaz4v/not_spombleprofglidnoctobuns_again.jpg)
Oh that's right you posted a nasty meme(above) which I took as a direct response to my thread or my post which was directly above your nasty meme and you never apologized or explained what you meant.
JohnM
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Look I really don't care and the old thread and Forum for whatever reason is gone so lets start fresh and try to debate with honour and dignity.
JohnM
And what better way to start than with a more sophisticated approach than the black and white CT categorization for those not convinced by the WR findiyngs.
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And what better way to start than with a more sophisticated approach than the black and white CT categorization for those not convinced by the WR findings.
What, you're offended by "Kook"? Yet when I'm called a LNer "Nutter" you don't see me crying.
JohnM
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What, you're offended by "Kook"? Yet when I'm called a LNer "Nutter" you don't see me crying.
JohnM
No John......the unsophisticated labelling of all those not convinced by the WR into an amporphous group "CT/kook/whatever" that supposedly believes in every JFK proposed conspiracy, fake moon landings, 911, Sasquatch, creationism etc etc.
I thought even blind Frederick could see what I was talking about. Do you understand my point? A simple yes or no will suffice.
Or you can do your usual tactic of ignoring the questions that are uncomfortable.
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Quote on
William Sucher on March 12, 1964, advised he has bought hundreds of thousands of rifles overseas as Italian Government surplus and he does NOT maintain the serial numbers of these rifles. Many were collected from battlefields and places of improper storage and they were in very poor condition. They were usually bought by the pound rather than by the unit. Upon arrival in Canada, defective parts were removed and salable rifles were sometimes composed of parts of three or more weapons. Sucher advised the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was manufactured in Italy from 1891 to 1941 however in the 1930?s ordered all arms factories to manufacture the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. SINCE MANY CONCERNS WERE MANUFACTURING THE SAME WEAPON, THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER APPEARS ON WEAPONS MANUFACTURED BY MORE THAN ONE CONCERN.? (emphasis added) (CE 2562, p. 808)
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0419b.htm
Quote off
Riva was contracted to REMOVE serial numbers. Why did the alleged murder weapon have a serial number on it IF it came through the way the WC claimed?
If there were two model 91/38 carcano short rifles manufactured with the same serial number....would you please calculate the odds of those two rifles being sold as surplus, shipped to the US and ended up in Dallas Texas?
My guess is you'd have better odds of winning the lottery.....
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Walt rushing to the defense of LNers again. Shocker. NOT!
The point is more than one rifle can bear the SAME serial number. The WC and LNers have said this isn't true. Hoover's memo shows that it is.
Using common sense is defense of LNer's ??
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Each factory that made Carcanos would stamp its location onto the rifle. C2766 has "TERNI" stamped on it. There were. I believe, three other manufacturers, but Terni produced the vast majority of M91/38 Carcanos. Rifles were stamped numerically 000-9999, after which an alphabetical prefix was added.
Possibly, rifles bearing a "2766" numerical marking would have been produced at each factory in this order:
| 2766 | N2766 | AA2766 | AN2766 | BA2766 | BN2766 |
| A2766 | O2766 | AB2766 | AO2766 | BB2766 | BO2766 |
| B2766 | P2766 | AC2766 | AP2766 | BC2766 | BP2766 |
| C2766 | Q2766 | AD2766 | AQ2766 | BD2766 | BQ2766 |
| D2766 | R2766 | AE2766 | AR2766 | BE2766 | BR2766 |
| E2766 | S2766 | AF2766 | AS2766 | BF2766 | BS2766 |
| F2766 | T2766 | AG2766 | AT2766 | BG2766 | BT2766 |
| G2766 | U2766 | AH2766 | AU2766 | BH2766 | BU2766 |
| H2766 | V2766 | AI2766 | AV2766 | BI2766 | BV2766 |
| I2766 | W2766 | AJ2766 | AW2766 | BJ2766 | BW2766 |
| J2766 | X2766 | AK2766 | AX2766 | B-K-2766 | BX2766 |
| K2766 | Y2766 | AL2766 | AY2766 | BL2766 | BY2766 |
| L2766 | Z2766 | AM2766 | AZ2766 | BM2766 | BZ2766 |
| M2766 | | | | | |
... and so on through the alphabet.
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I was multi-tasking when I wrote that.
I should have said:
However: Lee Harvey Oswald could have taken TAPE from a "new" roll that had yet to be put in the dispenser. Mystery solved.
If the tape had "marks from the dispenser on it", that proves (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the paper sack was made from materials taken from the TSBD 1st floor wrapping paper/tape dispenser.
This means:
1) Oswald made the paper-sack at the dispenser while no TSBD employee was watching.
2) Oswald somehow manipulated the tape-dispenser so it did not wet the tape when he took some (and paper) intending to make the paper-sack at the Paine's garage on Thursday evening or Friday morning.
3) Oswald "did" remove wet tape from the dispenser; concealed it somewhere; let it dry. He later (at the Paine's garage) wet the tape and used it to make the paper-sack.
4) The Dallas Police constructed the paper-sack to demonstrate how Oswald smuggled the rifle into the TSBD ... and further incriminate him. In this scenario: Dallas police officers smuggled the rifle (Carcano) into the TSBD (before 12:30 pm CST) for the assassin (not Oswald) to use in the murder of JFK.
Why do you assume that it had to either be Oswald or the police?
Assuming that you reject #1, #2 & #3: You need to assign a reason for Dallas Police officers (several) to participate in a plot to murder President John F. Kennedy. I'm assuming you believe they had the "means" and "opportunity". That leaves "motive".
Why would you assume that if the police constructed the bag, it was because they were participating in a plot to murder Kennedy?
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Or Oswald got to work a little earlier on Thursday and spent a couple of minutes building his rifle bag.
Is there any evidence that Oswald got to work earlier than West on Thursday (or any other day?)
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Remember when I exposed your dirty time manipulating trick, nasty.
Mytton makes an unsubstantiated claim. What a shocker...
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Why do you assume that it had to either be Oswald or the police?
Why would you assume that if the police constructed the bag, it was because they were participating in a plot to murder Kennedy?
Colin Crow stated that the paper-sack was made by Day/Studebaker of the Dallas PD. This implied that there was some sort of conspiracy to further incriminate Oswald.
I assumed that "the" paper-sack referred to by Crow was the one that contained Oswald's right palm-print and left index finger-print.
Fabricating evidence an hour or so after the crime would indicate knowledge of the crime before it was carried out.
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Colin Crow stated that the paper-sack was made by Day/Studebaker of the Dallas PD. This implied that there was some sort of conspiracy to further incriminate Oswald.
I assumed that "the" paper-sack referred to by Crow was the one that contained Oswald's right palm-print and left index finger-print.
Fabricating evidence an hour or so after the crime would indicate knowledge of the crime before it was carried out.
You must not have ever read Colin's thread.
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Look I really don't care and the old thread and Forum for whatever reason is gone so lets start fresh and try to debate with honour and dignity.
JohnM
Honour
the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right.
"I must as a matter of honour avoid any taint of dishonesty"
synonyms: integrity, honourableness, honesty, uprightness, ethics, morals, morality, principle, (high) principles, righteousness, rectitude, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness;
Respect
due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.
"young people's lack of respect for their parents"
synonyms: due regard, consideration, thoughtfulness, attentiveness, politeness, courtesy, civility, deference
Let us know when you are ready.
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Tony, my friend....It was information like yours that had the bastroids worried and caused them to blow up the site.
The fact that they blew up the site is a sure sign that we've got em on the run......
I read 500 or so pages of archives on the old site before it was lost. Most of it made no more sense than your post above.
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I read 500 or so pages of archives on the old site before it was lost. Most of it made no more sense than your post above.
500 pages would be a drop in the ocean......the "CE 142 what?s the flap" thread by Tony was more than a hundred pages alone.....some others like "PM" and "2 men on the sixth floor" were of similar size.
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If you had taken notice of the old site you would have noticed there was around 500 pages of old threads in the archives. Not 500 threads. I read them all and used them as references for further reading. Well not all of them. It soon became apparent some authors were best ignored.
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Tony, my friend....It was information like yours that had the bastroids worried and caused them to blow up the site.
The fact that they blew up the site is a sure sign that we've got em on the run......
Yes, its a relief to see that Tony himself didn't disappear ;D
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If you had taken notice of the old site you would have noticed there was around 500 pages of old threads in the archives. Not 500 threads. I read them all and used them as references for further reading. Well not all of them. It soon became apparent some authors were best ignored.
Perhaps you should learn to express yourself more accurately. "500 pages or so of achives from the old site" is not the same as 500 pages of threads.
This attack from a position of weakness seems to be pervasive in many of the LN crew.
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On page 1 of this thread I asked David von Pein two simple straight forward questions, which so far he has not be able or willing to answer.
Instead he did a song and dance act, claiming that the exact implication of the alleged purchase was "obvious", but he never managed to come up with an answer. So let's try this again;
The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact.
Please explain in detail how Waldman 7 proves that the rifle was mailed to the P.O. Box?
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Even if true, what exactly would be the implication of such a purchase?
Do you admit David that Waldman 7 holds not a shred of proof that any rifle was actually mailed to the P.O. Box?
And, if somebody (under false name or pretenses) orders, pays for and receives a rifle by mail in late March 1963 what exactly would be the implication of that purchase? No theories about what could have happend to and with the rifle at a later date, please. Just the only true implication of that purchase.... do you think you can answer that, David?
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Do you admit, David, that Waldman 7 holds not a shred of proof that any rifle was actually mailed to the P.O. Box?
I do not agree with that statement at all, Martin.
Waldman #7 is the internal order form created by the seller--Klein's--and it shows that Hidell/(Oswald) ordered 1 Italian Carbine in March '63, and it also shows that the order was PAID FOR via a money order ("MO") in the amount of $21.45.
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0364a.htm
It's true that Waldman 7 doesn't have these specific words written on it --- "THIS RIFLE WAS MAILED VIA THE USPS". But it does, however, provide the shipping date---March 20. And it also indicates that the rifle was sent via "Parcel Post" (denoted by the "PP" being circled at the top). But that's not good enough for you either, is it Martin?
Plus, there's William Waldman's testimony, which certainly indicates that Klein's did MAIL rifle number C2766 to P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas on the 20th day of March in 1963. Or do you think Waldman was lying through his teeth here?....
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.
And, if somebody (under false name or pretenses) orders, pays for and receives a rifle by mail in late March 1963 what exactly would be the implication of that purchase? No theories about what could have happened to and with the rifle at a later date, please. Just the only true implication of that purchase.... do you think you can answer that, David?
It implies that "Hidell" (aka Lee Oswald) ordered a rifle under an alias. But apparently you think the rifle order implies that someone was framing Oswald and wanted to only make it LOOK like he had ordered a rifle from Klein's in March of '63 (which means the orchestrators of such a plan perfectly faked Oswald's handwriting as well).
But, IMO, it's much more reasonable to believe the rifle evidence is just what it appears to be---an order placed by Oswald himself and not by plotters attempting to frame him.
Oswald didn't buy the rifle to shoot the President, that's true enough. He purchased the gun to kill General Walker. The timing of the Walker shooting makes that fact pretty clear. And with that illegal activity in Oswald's mind, it makes perfect sense that he would want to use an alias to order the rifle by mail in March.
In short....
It was OSWALD'S rifle, and there is no indication at all that he ever loaned that weapon to anyone else the entire time he owned it. And there certainly is not a shred of evidence to indicate anybody stole the gun from Ruth Paine's house in September, October, or November of 1963.
And, as I've asked conspiracy theorists in the past --- Who is MORE likely to use Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle on any day of the week (11/22/63 or any other day)---the rifle's owner himself or someone else? That simple and basic observation, all by itself, makes OSWALD much more likely to be JFK's murderer than any other person on the planet.
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I do not agree with that statement at all, Martin.
Waldman #7 is the internal order form created by the seller--Klein's--and it shows that Hidell/(Oswald) ordered 1 Italian Carbine in March '63, and it also shows that the order was PAID FOR via a money order ("MO") in the amount of $21.45.
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0364a.htm
It's true that Waldman 7 doesn't have these specific words written on it --- "THIS RIFLE WAS MAILED VIA THE USPS". But it does, however, provide the shipping date---March 20. And it also indicates that the rifle was sent via "Parcel Post" (denoted by the "PP" being circled at the top). But that's not good enough for you either, is it Martin?
Waldman #7 is the internal order form created by the seller
Exactly, it's an internal document and no matter how you spin it, it simply does not prove that a rifle was sent, which is what you claimed.
The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact.
But that's not good enough for you either, is it Martin?
An internal document that anybody could have written? No, that's most certainly not good enough as "proof" that a rifle was mailed.
Plus, there's William Waldman's testimony, which certainly indicates that Klein's did MAIL rifle number C2766 to P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas on the 20th day of March in 1963. Or do you think Waldman was lying through his teeth here?....
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.
Waldman's testimony is IMO overrated and very often misrepresented by LNs. The man was a VP of Klein's who had nothing to do with the weapons selling side of the business. His testimony clearly shows that he is only explaining what the forms are and how the procedure works. He is not confirming the accuracy of the content, simply because he the lacked first hand knowledge to do so. Waldman just assumes that what is on those forms is accurate because he has no reason to believe otherwise.
I do not think Waldman was lying through his teeth, but unless he posted the package himself he simply could not have known if and when a package was mailed. So, his testimony does not indicate that Klein's mailed that package. It merely indicate that Waldham, based on the documents before him, assumed that it was.
It implies that "Hidell" (aka Lee Oswald) ordered a rifle under an alias. But apparently you think the rifle order implies that someone was framing Oswald and wanted to only make it LOOK like he had ordered a rifle from Klein's in March of '63 (which means the orchestrators of such a plan perfectly faked Oswald's handwriting as well).
But, IMO, it's much more reasonable to believe the rifle evidence is just what it appears to be---an order placed by Oswald himself and not by plotters attempting to frame him.
It implies that "Hidell" (aka Lee Oswald) ordered a rifle under an alias.
Implication isn't proof.
But apparently you think the rifle order implies that someone was framing Oswald and wanted to only make it LOOK like he had ordered a rifle from Klein's in March of '63 (which means the orchestrators of such a plan perfectly faked Oswald's handwriting as well).
You don't know what I think, David. Your strawman argument doesn't work on me.
Oswald didn't buy the rifle to shoot the President, that's true enough. He purchased the gun to kill General Walker. The timing of the Walker shooting makes that fact pretty clear. And with that illegal activity in Oswald's mind, it makes perfect sense that he would want to use an alias to order the rifle by mail in March.
In short....
It was OSWALD'S rifle, and there is no indication at all that he ever loaned that weapon to anyone else the entire time he owned it. And there certainly is not a shred of evidence to indicate anybody stole the gun from Ruth Paine's house in September, October, or November of 1963.
Oswald didn't buy the rifle to shoot the President, that's true enough. He purchased the gun to kill General Walker. The timing of the Walker shooting makes that fact pretty clear.
If Oswald did indeed buy the rifle, then you can only quess about why he bought it. Your opinion that the timing of the Walker shooting makes "that fact" pretty clear is just that... your opinion.
It was OSWALD'S rifle, and there is no indication at all that he ever loaned that weapon to anyone else the entire time he owned it. And there certainly is not a shred of evidence to indicate anybody stole the gun from Ruth Paine's house in September, October, or November of 1963.
Was the rifle found in the TSBD really ever stored in Ruth Paine's garage, David? Can you provide evidence for that, beyond Marina's claim of seeing, in late September, what she believed to be the wooden stock of a rifle (which later morphed into "there was a rifle")? And can you prove conclusively that an alleged rifle that was last seen in late September was still there on 11/21/63 and not removed long before that?
Don't you think it a bit strange that Marina would allow a lethal weapon lying around for months in an easy accessible garage of a house where kids live and frequently play on the front lawn. Does that sound even remotely plausible to you, David?
And, as I've asked conspiracy theorists in the past --- Who is MORE likely to use Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle on any day of the week (11/22/63 or any other day)---the rifle's owner himself or someone else? That simple and basic observation, all by itself, makes OSWALD much more likely to be JFK's murderer than any other person on the planet.
Silly! This assumes that (1) Oswald did in fact order the rifle (2) received it (3) owned it and (4) still had it on 11/22/63. That's not a simple and basic observation. That's 100% speculation, pure and simple.
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My best guess and it is only a best guess, not proof for you proof folks, is he retrieved the rifle because the cops told the media they found a .30-06 bullet in Walkers wall. From that he may have believed the rifle was safe to keep.
Keeping the rifle may sound incompetent but Peter Sutcliffe was driving around with a hammer in his car which he had battered numerous women to death with. Nutty folks do nutty things.
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My best guess and it is only a best guess, not proof for you proof folks, is he retrieved the rifle because the cops told the media they found a .30-06 bullet in Walkers wall. From that he may have believed the rifle was safe to keep.
Keeping the rifle may sound incompetent but Peter Sutcliffe was driving around with a hammer in his car which he had battered numerous women to death with. Nutty folks do nutty things.
Mr Anderson....A word of advise.... You are displaying a lack of critical thinking. First of you are on the wrong path in accepting the finding of the Warren Commission. If you haven't read the Warren Report ( and it appears that you haven't) then perhaps you should start from the beginning .......
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Mr Anderson....A word of advise.... You are displaying a lack of critical thinking. First of you are on the wrong path in accepting the finding of the Warren Commission. If you haven't read the Warren Report ( and it appears that you haven't) then perhaps you should start from the beginning .......
Mister I waded through dozens of your threads of pish in the archives and you question my thinking? Seriously? Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him. Master criminal he was not. I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because I can think for myself.
Did the Warren Commission try their best to convince the public Oswald was 'the man'? Yes they did but they didn't set up an innocent man they went full bore to establish a case against a guilty man. Unfortunately DPD, FBI, SS and CIA all lied through their teeth which is blatant to the reader and the Commission even at the time. Hence the conspiracies.
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Mister I waded through dozens of your threads of pish in the archives and you question my thinking? Seriously? Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him. Master criminal he was not. I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because I can think for myself.
Did the Warren Commission try their best to convince the public Oswald was 'the man'? Yes they did but they didn't set up an innocent man they went full bore to establish a case against a guilty man. Unfortunately DPD, FBI, SS and CIA all lied through their teeth which is blatant to the reader and the Commission even at the time. Hence the conspiracies.
Wow an awful lot of suppositions in your post, John.
"Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him."
Totally unproven.
"I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because I can think for myself. "
Believe what you want. Doesn't prove a thing.
"Did the Warren Commission try their best to convince the public Oswald was 'the man'? "
Thank you for showing the intention of the Warren Commission.
"Yes they did but they didn't set up an innocent man they went full bore to establish a case against a guilty man."
First you have to prove that Oswald was guilty.
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You guys need to accept none of us can prove anything. All we have is the available evidence and some common sense.
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You guys need to accept none of us can prove anything. All we have is the available evidence and some common sense.
Yep.
They are only here to argue.
My take is that Oswald probably did it.
I can't prove it. BFD deal, haha.
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Yep.
They are only here to argue.
My take is that Oswald probably did it.
I can't prove it. BFD deal, haha.
They are only here to argue.
Funny... and what exactly are you here for?
My take is that Oswald probably did it.
I can't prove it. BFD deal, haha.
That you can't prove anything you say has been obvious for a long time... indeed no big deal. Just empty words from a guy desperate for attention.
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Mister I waded through dozens of your threads of pish in the archives and you question my thinking? Seriously? Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him. Master criminal he was not. I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because I can think for myself.
Did the Warren Commission try their best to convince the public Oswald was 'the man'? Yes they did but they didn't set up an innocent man they went full bore to establish a case against a guilty man. Unfortunately DPD, FBI, SS and CIA all lied through their teeth which is blatant to the reader and the Commission even at the time. Hence the conspiracies.
Mister I waded through dozens of your threads of pish in the archives and you question my thinking?
Actually, anybody who wades through dozens of threads of pish needs his head examined.
I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because I can think for myself.
Brilliant, so you're sure of yourself.... the only problem is that your opinion isn't the superior one and you could just as easy be wrong. Ever thought of that Mr "I can think for myself".
Did the Warren Commission try their best to convince the public Oswald was 'the man'? Yes they did but they didn't set up an innocent man they went full bore to establish a case against a guilty man. Unfortunately DPD, FBI, SS and CIA all lied through their teeth which is blatant to the reader and the Commission even at the time. Hence the conspiracies.
Actually, you might well be right here. I share your belief that the case was wrapped around Oswald and that evidence was manipulated to do it. Although Oswald had to have been involved to some extend, what I can not decide upon is his guilt or innocence as either a lone gunman or a co-conspirator.
You guys need to accept none of us can prove anything. All we have is the available evidence and some common sense.
I am not sure to who you are talking. Do you seriously believe that there actually is one person on this forum who does not know and understand this? Do you really believe you are telling any of us something new?
What you fail to understand is that the discussion on this board requires that evidence is provided for the claims that are being made. That's the only way to have a discussion. When everybody just starts shouting out unsubstantiated opinions there won't be much discussion left and this board will very quickly its appeal.
You have yourself said that you learned about this case by reading this forum and the diverse opinions expressed on it. So, you profit from the information (and evidence) provided by others, but now you want to play the game without doing the work yourself...... WOW! What a guy!
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Mister I waded through dozens of your threads of pish in the archives and you question my thinking? Seriously? Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him. Master criminal he was not. I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because I can think for myself.
Did the Warren Commission try their best to convince the public Oswald was 'the man'? Yes they did but they didn't set up an innocent man they went full bore to establish a case against a guilty man. Unfortunately DPD, FBI, SS and CIA all lied through their teeth which is blatant to the reader and the Commission even at the time. Hence the conspiracies.
Seriously? Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him. Master criminal he was not. I believe Oswald shot at Walker and Kennedy not because the Warren Commission told me so, because
Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him. Master criminal he was not.
On this point we are in total harmony....."Master criminal he was not". He was a naive sucker who fancied himself to be Herb Philbrick.
"Oswald shot at Walker and kept the gun despite leaving a bullet behind and a paper trail leading back to him."
So you acknowledge that there was a paper trail that a blind man could have followed.....And of course Lee and De Morhenschildt had planned it that way ....They wanted the police to announce that they had found the sniper's rifle and traced it to Lee Harvey Oswald who was now a fugitive who had tried to kill General walker who was one of Fidel Castro's most vocal foes. Lee and De Morhenschildt had planned for the police to search the Oswald's apartment and find the Back yard photo which showed Lee Harvey Oswald as a armed and ready communist revolutionary in the image of Fidel Castro. That photo would have been published in the newspapers to convince Castro that Lee Oswald was a loyal follower of Castro's revolution. The plot flopped because Marina fell asleep and didn't find the alarming note that Lee had left .
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Waldman #7 is the internal order form created by the seller--Klein's--and it shows that Hidell/(Oswald) ordered 1 Italian Carbine in March '63, and it also shows that the order was PAID FOR via a money order ("MO") in the amount of $21.45.
Hidell. The "/(Oswald)" is just your assumption.
It's true that Waldman 7 doesn't have these specific words written on it --- "THIS RIFLE WAS MAILED VIA THE USPS". But it does, however, provide the shipping date---March 20. And it also indicates that the rifle was sent via "Parcel Post" (denoted by the "PP" being circled at the top). But that's not good enough for you either, is it Martin?
Nor should it be. Anybody can type up a form and circle "PP". Or handwrite in a serial number. Where's the USPS documentation of the shipment and delivery?
Plus, there's William Waldman's testimony, which certainly indicates that Klein's did MAIL rifle number C2766 to P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas on the 20th day of March in 1963. Or do you think Waldman was lying through his teeth here?....
How would Waldman even know? He didn't ship orders. Why didn't they talk to the employee who processed the order?
(which means the orchestrators of such a plan perfectly faked Oswald's handwriting as well).
"Perfectly faked". LOL. 2 block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon.
Oswald didn't buy the rifle to shoot the President, that's true enough. He purchased the gun to kill General Walker.
How in the world would you know that?
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He told Marina that he had buried the rifle beneath a pile of brush NOT beneath the soil ( he had no shovel) and he thought the tracking dogs would find it ( what he hoped would happen)
Walt Fabrication #63
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You guys need to accept none of us can prove anything. All we have is the available evidence and some common sense.
"Common sense" is what people appeal to when they don't have actual evidence.
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So you acknowledge that there was a paper trail that a blind man could have followed.....And of course Lee and De Morhenschildt had planned it that way ....They wanted the police to announce that they had found the sniper's rifle and traced it to Lee Harvey Oswald who was now a fugitive who had tried to kill General walker who was one of Fidel Castro's most vocal foes. Lee and De Morhenschildt had planned for the police to search the Oswald's apartment and find the Back yard photo which showed Lee Harvey Oswald as a armed and ready communist revolutionary in the image of Fidel Castro. That photo would have been published in the newspapers to convince Castro that Lee Oswald was a loyal follower of Castro's revolution. The plot flopped because Marina fell asleep and didn't find the alarming note that Lee had left .
Thus sayeth the voices in Walt's head.
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The fact that JFK was killed by a conspiracy was proven in 1964 when the WC released their twenty-six volumes. The evidence in there shows that every claim they made in their WCR regarding the crimes was totally false. This is called a cover-up. A cover-up is only needed if there was a conspiracy.
The Warren Commission did not cover up evidence of a conspiracy. If any such evidence existed it was deliberately withheld from the commission by the FBI and CIA. None of that means Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy or Tippit though.
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There's no point citing anything to you. You arn't interested.
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Different LNer--same lame excuse. If you were confident in your evidence it wouldn't matter what I thought, but you know that it does NOT support the claims of the WCR.
Therefore, you duck and run.
Nobody ducks and runs from you. You have been beat over the head with evidence of Oswald's guilt in the death of Tippit. You just ignore it and later claim that that no one ever posts evidence of Oswald's guilt.
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The Warren Commission did not cover up evidence of a conspiracy. If any such evidence existed it was deliberately withheld from the commission by the FBI and CIA. None of that means Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy or Tippit though.
"The Warren Commission did not cover up evidence of a conspiracy."
Problem is the wound in JFK's back was lower than the wound in the front of his neck.
Below from the WC Executive Sessions and autopsy.
Note the WC commission, despite claiming they didn't view the autopsy photos, admitting they have the color photos of JFK's body and that the picture shows the wound in his back is lower than the one in front of his neck.
If knowing this information and still claiming a LN shot JFK from behind and 60 feet above isn't a coverup
I don't know what is.
"If any such evidence existed it was deliberately withheld from the commission by the FBI and CIA."
Former CIA director Allen Dulles was on the WC and Jerry Ford had a direct line to Hoover.
IMO the WC was complicit in the withholding of info by the CIA and FBI.
Warren Commission Executive Sessions
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1007
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundautopsyphotos.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundwc_1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/autopsybackwound.jpg)
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Yeah but when I read all that, which I've read before I still don't see evidence of a second shooter. Probes were used in the back wound, no they weren't, a finger was used. The autopsy is a mess, notes are a mess and recollections of those doing the autopsy are a mess. It's all a mess. The whole case is a mess. The USA in 1963 seems to have been in the the same mess as Soviet Russia.
I'm not claiming my country was any better.
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Nobody ducks and runs from you. You have been beat over the head with evidence of Oswald's guilt in the death of Tippit. You just ignore it and later claim that that no one ever posts evidence of Oswald's guilt.
And by "evidence of Oswald's guilt in the death of Tippit", Bill Brown means an identification by an "utter screwball" in an unfair lineup who had to be asked 6 times if she recognized anybody, shells not even found by law enforcement at the crime scene (which didn't match in number the brands of the slugs in Tippit) some with disappearing initials, and a gun that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 2 hours after Oswald was arrested without any probable cause.
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😂🤣😆😅
Another lame excuse. "I just ignore it." Sure. IF it was solid evidence it wouldn't matter what I did, but it isn't. There isn't a shred of solid evidence showing that LHO killed JDT in the twenty-six volumes. I know because I, unlike you, have studied them for years.
LNers ignore the twenty-six volumes because they do NOT support the claims of the WCR that they espouse constantly.
If you have proof that anyone but the shooter knew an attempt was to be made on Kennedy that day, by all means do post it.
Well?
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And by "evidence of Oswald's guilt in the death of Tippit", Bill Brown means an identification by an "utter screwball" in an unfair lineup who had to be asked 6 times if she recognized anybody, shells not even found by law enforcement at the crime scene (which didn't match in number the brands of the slugs in Tippit) some with disappearing initials, and a gun that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 2 hours after Oswald was arrested without any probable cause.
I don't need Helen Markham. Oswald is a cop-killer; no need to rely on Markham at all.
Shells were found by Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis and turned over to law enforcement. The chain of custody for these two shells is perfectly intact. These shells are evidence. They were linked, through ballistics, to the revolver taken from Oswald to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world. Whether you like it or not, these shells would be used to convict Oswald.
Unless, of course, you FINALLY have something to support your presumption that the shells aren't authentic. Do you?
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I don't need Helen Markham. Oswald is a cop-killer; no need to rely on Markham at all.
Shells were found by Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis and turned over to law enforcement. The chain of custody for these two shells is perfectly intact. These shells are evidence. They were linked, through ballistics, to the revolver taken from Oswald to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world. Whether you like it or not, these shells would be used to convict Oswald.
Unless, of course, you FINALLY have something to support your presumption that the shells aren't authentic. Do you?
Shells were found by Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis and turned over to law enforcement.
Since the S&W revolver dumps all spent shells at the same time.....How do you explain the killer taking one spent shell at a time from the gun he was unloading? The descriptions given by four different witnesses indicate the killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.
They were linked, through ballistics, to the revolver taken from Oswald to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world.
Can you prove that the shells that were turned over to the Warren Commission are the same shells that were found at the scene?.....How do you account for the absence of the initials Officer Poe and Detective Pete Barnes ?
Do you FINALLY have something to support your presumption that the shells are authentic. Do you?
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/poe%20tippit.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/poe%20tippit.jpg)
All this proves is that when they had the opportunity to tamper with the evidence against Oswald none of it was altered, which unfortunately for you has a devastating effect on your client, sorry about that. :'(
JohnM
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I don't need Helen Markham. Oswald is a cop-killer; no need to rely on Markham at all.
No need to rely on the only person who witnessed the crime?
Shells were found by Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis and turned over to law enforcement. The chain of custody for these two shells is perfectly intact. These shells are evidence.
Prove those shells were found at the crime scene. Or even the same ones found by the Davises.
They were linked, through ballistics, to the revolver taken from Oswald to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world.
Prove that revolver was taken from Oswald.
Whether you like it or not, these shells would be used to convict Oswald.
That's easy for you to say.
Unless, of course, you FINALLY have something to support your presumption that the shells aren't authentic. Do you?
You can't demonstrate their provenance. That's enough.
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All this proves is that when they had the opportunity to tamper with the evidence against Oswald none of it was altered, which unfortunately for you has a devastating effect on your client, sorry about that. :'(
Dream on. What it shows is that there's no good reason to think that the shells that Benavides handed to Poe were any of the C47-C50 shells.
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Said by a guy who supports a theory with NO supporting evidence whatsoever. Why don't you require proof?
I need to prove your speculations? I don't think so...
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I need to prove your speculations? I don't think so...
No he's asking you why you don't require proof for what you believe.
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All this proves is that when they had the opportunity to tamper with the evidence against Oswald none of it was altered, which unfortunately for you has a devastating effect on your client, sorry about that. :'(
JohnM
They didn't alter the cartridge cases Poe marked, they made them disappear.
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No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it.
Ignorance strikes again; apart from the problem that there is absolutely no conclusive evidence to support the claim that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photo is the same one that was ordered from Klein's or the one that was found at the TSBD, according to Richard Smith, being photographed holding a rifle means you own that rifle! Hilarious!
Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number.
There are no such documents.
His prints are on the rifle.
No there were not. The FBI didn't find any prints...... Only days later, Lt Day produced a card with one print on it which he claimed came from the rifle. That's the same guy who believed Frazier about the bag and came up with the silly theory that the heavy bag he had could have been concealed in the flimsy bag Frazier had seen Oswald carry.
It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine.
No. It's difficult to understand how you could be so extremely gullible as you seem to be.....
Only days later, Lt Day produced a card with one print on it which he claimed came from the rifle.
This simply isn't true..... The DPD turned over to the FBI that unidentifiable smudge that as later called Lee palm print at Midnight 11/22/63.
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if the MC rifle Oswald supposedly ordered, included a scope mounted on it by a professional gunsmith at Kleins, why, (if the same rifle that was found on the 6th floor)have a scope mount so poorly aligned that the only way possible to get the scope in alignment was to unscrew the mount, insert a shim, to correct it?
It is difficult to believe Oswald was dumb enough to have:
A. Used a fake ID with A.Hidell, a name which he must have remembered was in some letters he had written, while in the USSR. Why not make up a completely unrelated name instead?
B. Even if Oswald was dumb enough to use a fake name that linked himself thru some letters written, why not just open another P.O. box at a completely different office and have rifle sent to that office, and to that P.O.box. Instead Oswald uses his own P.O. box and lists A.Hidell as an alternate??
C. Why would Oswald even bother ordering a rifle at all, when he could have easily bought a rifle from gun store in a completely different state, even probably gotten one from Mexico, without any paper trail at all linking the rifle to himself?
D. After doing dumb A thru C, Oswald dumb enough to keep his fake Hidell ID on his person even after shooting both JFK and a police officer, and then droping his wallet with that ID at the Tippett scene?
Other things a little odd:
1. no fingerprints on the order form (Oswald smart enough to wear gloves, but dumb enough write in his own handwriting?
2. ammo. Where the ammo come from? no one remembers selling a very particular and uncommon 6.5 mm MC ammo to a kind of peculiar acting guy, like Oswald??? The same Oswald that LOTS of other people seem to have remembered easily, after just a brief glimpse, at the restaurant, at an apartment, on a bus, in a cab, in a theater buying popcorn.. etc.
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if the MC rifle Oswald supposedly ordered, included a scope mounted on it by a professional gunsmith at Kleins, why, (if the same rifle that was found on the 6th floor)have a scope mount so poorly aligned that the only way possible to get the scope in alignment was to unscrew the mount, insert a shim, to correct it?
It is difficult to believe Oswald was dumb enough to have:
A. Used a fake ID with A.Hidell, a name which he must have remembered was in some letters he had written, while in the USSR. Why not make up a completely unrelated name instead?
B. Even if Oswald was dumb enough to use a fake name that linked himself thru some letters written, why not just open another P.O. box at a completely different office and have rifle sent to that office, and to that P.O.box. Instead Oswald uses his own P.O. box and lists A.Hidell as an alternate??
C. Why would Oswald even bother ordering a rifle at all, when he could have easily bought a rifle from gun store in a completely different state, even probably gotten one from Mexico, without any paper trail at all linking the rifle to himself?
D. After doing dumb A thru C, Oswald dumb enough to keep his fake Hidell ID on his person even after shooting both JFK and a police officer, and then droping his wallet with that ID at the Tippett scene?
Other things a little odd:
1. no fingerprints on the order form (Oswald smart enough to wear gloves, but dumb enough write in his own handwriting?
2. ammo. Where the ammo come from? no one remembers selling a very particular and uncommon 6.5 mm MC ammo to a kind of peculiar acting guy, like Oswald??? The same Oswald that LOTS of other people seem to have remembered easily, after just a brief glimpse, at the restaurant, at an apartment, on a bus, in a cab, in a theater buying popcorn.. etc.
He expects a gun-dealer or store worker to remember Oswald buying ammunition, but doesn't see that as a reason why Oswald wouldn't buy a more-likely-to-be-remembered rifle in person.
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He also bought pistol ammo a holster and a sling.
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No need to rely on the only person who witnessed the crime?
Prove those shells were found at the crime scene. Or even the same ones found by the Davises.
Prove that revolver was taken from Oswald.
That's easy for you to say.
You can't demonstrate their provenance. That's enough.
No need to rely on the only person who witnessed the crime?
Do you think Domingo Benavides didn't witness the murder?
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No need to rely on the only person who witnessed the crime?
Prove those shells were found at the crime scene. Or even the same ones found by the Davises.
Prove that revolver was taken from Oswald.
That's easy for you to say.
You can't demonstrate their provenance. That's enough.
Endless contrarian nonsense. Prove the sky is blue if someone can dismiss any such evidence out of hand as the potential product of fakery and lies. And then claim you haven't satisfied his idiotic, subjective standard of proof as though that matters. Ridiculous. You should be embarrassed to peddle that same song and dance over and over.
Inspector Clouseau (aka John) explains the "facts" to us:
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LHO's prints were only found after the boys went to the morgue and put LHO's ink stained hands on the rifle . Nobody can put that rifle in LHO's hands and if they could , he couldn't hit anything with it. There was no proof that LHO ever picked up a rifle at the Post Office . It sounds like Trump was leading the investigation .
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I rarely speculate and when I do I make it clear that I am. I use the actual evidence found in the twenty-six volumes unlike you.
You "speculate " that Kleins sent a 36 inch long Carcano to Dallas .....By insisting that the rifle was a 36 inch long Carcano carbine which has a stock length of 28 inches, you play right into the hands of those who insist that Lee had a disassembled carcano in the brown paper sack he carried that morning.
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The postal money order is a non-starter, the "everything is faked," gallery, points out.
The archivist who claimed to have recovered the original in the Arlington, VA archive was
obviously in on the manufacturing and faking of that piece of evidence, along with Harry
Holmes on Saturday afternoon, into mid-evening.
Lance Payette is a gullible fool to assert that the file locator number he
identified on that money order was instrumental in any way in recovering that
evidence at the archive in Arlington via a computer search using that locator
number for its designed purpose. The file locator number is so much fake window
dressing on a manufactured fake financial instrument.
Are you following these points, so far?
Continuing to simply accept every element at face value, Oswald was the stupidest
perp who ever begged to self incriminate and be almost immediately be found out
and determined obviously guilty.
Nevermind the contradictions, the interest in and ability to acquire Russian language skills,
USMC air controller skills, pass through the Helsinki visa process and enter the Soviet Union
in record tying rapidity, talk his way into admission, residence, a job in a restricted military
sensitive occupation in a quasi closed Soviet city, date and marry the niece of an interior
ministry colonel, obtain permission to quickly exit with his technically trained (at the expense of the state)
new wife after rapidly obtaining permission from all potentially obstructive or delaying parties, to marry,
and then return to the Moscow embassy to recover his U.S. passport upon his impending exit
from the SU, despite having allegedly threatened in that same embassy to reveal classified U-2 related
details to the Soviets.
He stumbled through all of those steps without a misstep, even parlaying his initial faked suicide
attempt to his advantage.
He slipped back into the U.S. according to the official narrative, without so much as summoning
sufficient interest from CIA or ONI to expend the effort to debrief him.
Either by sheer luck or by anticipating how to game the tendency to fiercely protect sources and
methods, he slipped in and back out of Mexico City without producing enough presentable confirmation
of his actual presence in that city to even satisfy the WC investigators that he had definitely made that
trip.
But, after all of that, you know down to your 'nads that he did all of the stupid stuff you unceasingly
attribute to him....buying traceable weapons, establishing a photographic record strutting with those
weapons while sporting two conflicting commie publications, creating a ridiculously obvious fake
draft card and salting his paper trail with the fake name on that I.D., via a vaccination card and
an FPCC record, while concealing one of the most difficult components, purchase of the oddball ammo
for the dysfunctional rifle you ardently believe he was carrying around Dallas without vehicle transport.
shooting it at an army general and then at the president and the governor.
You act as if you are a victim of irrational abuse by irrational opponents who are not all "everything is
fake," CTs, but instead, thoughtful, curious individuals with open minds and keen sense of smell.
In the aggregate, the points (contradictions) I described above are as unlikely as the trajectory of
the magic bullet and the coincidental disappearance of all electronic recording and direct paper record
of the friday afternoon comments of Drs. Perry and Kemp, until 1976, and much longer in the example
of their press conference copy stamped 11/26/63, identified by the ARRB more than 25 years later
as being in the paper workflow of SS chief Rowley, even as he was maintaining norecord whatsoever of
the 11/22 opinions of Kemp or Perry could be located in 1964!
Your incurious certainty is your most obvious liability in your effort to convince any reasonable person
that there is definitely and obviously nothing to wonder about a mad dog lone nut with a scrambled egg
for a brain, in his careless, sloppy pursuit of eternal infamy!
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Nevermind the contradictions, the interest in and ability to acquire Russian language skills,
His skill level in Russian was generally poor. He supposedly could read Russian well.
USMC air controller skills,
I think he was trained in radar.
pass through the Helsinki visa process
He was given a six-day visa based on his claim to be a student traveler.
and enter the Soviet Unionin record tying rapidity, talk his way into admission, residence, a job in a restricted military sensitive occupation in a quasi closed Soviet city,
Oswald worked as a lathe operator in a radio factory in Minsk, which produced mostly consumer products, with some military and space contracts.
date and marry the niece of an interior ministry colonel,
Oswald proposed marriage to Ella German, a co-worker at the factory. He was rejected and met Marina shortly after.
obtain permission to quickly exit with his technically trained (at the expense of the state) new wife
You mean Marina, the 19-year-old pharmacology student?
after rapidly obtaining permission from all potentially obstructive or delaying parties, to marry, and then return to the Moscow embassy to recover his U.S. passport upon his impending exit from the SU, despite having allegedly threatened in that same embassy to reveal classified U-2 related details to the Soviets.
Oswald never formally renounced his citizenship. And he had no "secrets" about the U-2.
He stumbled through all of those steps without a misstep,
The potential for "stumbling" seems based on how artificially high you've subjectively raised the bar.
...snip...
two conflicting commie publications,
One was Trotskyist and the other pro-Soviet. That aside, they were American publications that were leftist, socialist, pro-Castro and critical of US policy. The Trotskyist publication, "The Militant", published more of Castro's speeches and the Cuban viewpoint than "The Worker".
...snip the rest...
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You are either lying or confused as I don't think ANY rifle was sent to LHO. You, like the LNers, claim that he ordered a 36" Carbine but was sent a 40" short rifle.
There is NO evidence showing that LHO ever received any rifle at his P.O. Box.
You, like the LNers, claim that he ordered a 36" Carbine but was sent a 40" short rifle.
I make no such claim.....My position is:.....Lee didn't give a damn about he "fine print".... He And George De M simply wanted a cheap unusual easy to trace rifle that they could leave as a "throw down gun" near Walker's residence after the
hoax attempt to shoot Walker.
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Only days later, Lt Day produced a card with one print on it which he claimed came from the rifle.
This simply isn't true..... The DPD turned over to the FBI that unidentifiable smudge that as later called Lee palm print at Midnight 11/22/63.
Says the guy waving an undated evidence list.
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No need to rely on the only person who witnessed the crime?
Do you think Domingo Benavides didn't witness the murder?
That's correct. Read his testimony. He heard the shots, but didn't see Tippit being shot.
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Endless contrarian nonsense. Prove the sky is blue if someone can dismiss any such evidence out of hand as the potential product of fakery and lies.
And you should believe Richard's unsupported nonsense because the sky is blue.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
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You, like the LNers, claim that he ordered a 36" Carbine but was sent a 40" short rifle.
I make no such claim.....My position is:.....Lee didn't give a damn about he "fine print".... He And George De M simply wanted a cheap unusual easy to trace rifle that they could leave as a "throw down gun" near Walker's residence after the
hoax attempt to shoot Walker.
Walt Fabrication #55
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Marina denies that she showed Jeanne De Mohrenschildt the rifle...
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that.
Feb 3, 1964 (that's the date on page 1 of my copy of the testimony)
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That's correct. Read his testimony. He heard the shots, but didn't see Tippit being shot.
Perhaps he didn't see the gun in the hand of the killer being fired at Tippit but Benavides absolutely witnessed the murder.....He described Tipit walking towaed the front f the car and then collapsing to the street a he time the shots were being fired...
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Says the guy waving an undated evidence list.
The evidence list needs no date on it to know that it was created on the evening of 11 / 22/63 ..... Any reasonably intelligent person can compare the evidence lists and comprehend that the so called "palm print was turned over to the FBI at midnight along with the other evidence .....Like the very first item on the list....The 6.5mm rifle.
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The evidence list needs no date on it to know that it was created on the evening of 11 / 22/63
Then how do you know that it was created on the evening of 11/22/63?
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Then how do you know that it was created on the evening of 11/22/63?
I've explained this to you many times...... But apparently you're too dense to comprehend .
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I've explained this to you many times...... But apparently you too dense to comprehend .
I already know the answer -- you made it up.
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.........
Continuing to simply accept every element at face value, Oswald was the stupidest
perp who ever begged to self incriminate and be almost immediately be found out
and determined obviously guilty.
Nevermind the contradictions, the interest in and ability to acquire Russian language skills,
USMC air controller skills, pass through the Helsinki visa process and enter the Soviet Union
in record tying rapidity, talk his way into admission, residence, a job in a restricted military
sensitive occupation in a quasi closed Soviet city, date and marry the niece of an interior
ministry colonel, obtain permission to quickly exit with his technically trained (at the expense of the state)
new wife after rapidly obtaining permission from all potentially obstructive or delaying parties, to marry,
and then return to the Moscow embassy to recover his U.S. passport upon his impending exit
from the SU, despite having allegedly threatened in that same embassy to reveal classified U-2 related
details to the Soviets.
He stumbled through all of those steps without a misstep, even parlaying his initial faked suicide
attempt to his advantage.
He slipped back into the U.S. according to the official narrative, without so much as summoning
sufficient interest from CIA or ONI to expend the effort to debrief him.
Either by sheer luck or by anticipating how to game the tendency to fiercely protect sources and
methods, he slipped in and back out of Mexico City without producing enough presentable confirmation
of his actual presence in that city to even satisfy the WC investigators that he had definitely made that
trip.......
.......
It is reasonable to have reasonable doubt about taking the official determinations (re: Oswald) at face value, unreasonable to have no doubt.:
His skill level in Russian was generally poor. He supposedly could read Russian well.
I think he was trained in radar.
He was given a six-day visa based on his claim to be a student traveler.
Oswald worked as a lathe operator in a radio factory in Minsk, which produced mostly consumer products, with some military and space contracts.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24491-oswald-as-locksmith/?do=findComment&comment=366539
Lance Payette Posted December, 2017
....I suppose LHO's background with the military would have made him a logical candidate for radio factory work, but it is odd that he would have been sent to a factory 400 miles from Moscow with a highly sensitive area - and some of the sensitive work did involve radar. If they really thought he was the nuisance they claimed, they could have sent him to a potato farm or grocery store.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24491-oswald-as-locksmith/?tab=comments#comment-366497
Lance Payette posted December, 2017
....I've mentioned previously that my wife's sister worked in the sensitive (military) portion of the Minsk Radio Factory, where my wife visited her on numerous occasions. My wife couldn't get within 50 yards of the sensitive area, which did military work - she had to telephone her sister from the lobby and wait for her there. Employees of the sensitive area were not even allowed to leave the USSR on vacations.
The remainder of the facility was a standard radio and TV factory. "Regulator" was LHO's job classification, but his actual job was as a machinist (lathe operator). The Russian word for locksmith does appear in the short resignation document, but I'm not sure that is the complete and accurate translation since I can't read the word immediately after locksmith. This again may be referring to the job classification and may be the same as regulator.
I have a hard time believing LHO would have been allowed anywhere near the sensitive portion of the Minsk Radio Factory. The following site, which does include some interesting photos and discussion of LHO's work in Minsk (there are two pages), speculates that LHO might have been employed for a brief time in the sensitive area in 1960 to ferret out whether he showed any spy-like tendencies, then shifted to grunt-level work when he didn't show any such tendencies: http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm
But this does not explain why his 1962 resignation would still be referring to the "experimental shop." My guess would be that the experimental shop meant the R&D area of the radio and TV portion of the factory, not the sensitive experimental shop described at the above site. LHO's essay on the factory (quoted at the above site) shows no awareness of the sensitive work, which I find more believable than the notion he would have been allowed into an area that was grimly sensitive. ....
Oswald proposed marriage to Ella German, a co-worker at the factory. He was rejected and met Marina shortly after.
You mean Marina, the 19-year-old pharmacology student?
Oswald never formally renounced his citizenship. And he had no "secrets" about the U-2.
The potential for "stumbling" seems based on how artificially high you've subjectively raised the bar.
One was Trotskyist and the other pro-Soviet. That aside, they were American publications that were leftist, socialist, pro-Castro and critical of US policy. The Trotskyist publication, "The Militant", published more of Castro's speeches and the Cuban viewpoint than "The Worker".
...snip the rest...
I am addressing incuriousness....the lack of even reasonable doubt: buoying rigidity of belief.
Jerry....reads like you were perhaps quoting "the Bug?" And a nice try....but I make an extra
effort to post only what is reasonable in that the details I post can be credibly supported!
Testimony of Marina Oswald - Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm
....Then when I graduated I worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant....
Oswald's Ex-Captain Takes Aim at Single-Shooter Theory - latimes
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-11-21/local/me-59498_1_oswald-s-marksmanship
Oswald's Ex-Captain Takes Aim at Single-Shooter Theory. November 21, 1993|DANA PARSONS ... Block was only 29 himself when, as a Marine Corps captain, he supervised the young Oswald and about 35 to 40 other enlistees as part of Air Control Squadron Nine at the Tustin air base.
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/180-10147-10175.pdf
Page 6 of 6.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHelsinkiVisaSpeed.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/RosaleenQuinnEleanorMcMainHighSchool.jpg)
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2015.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldRussianRosaleenQuinn.jpg)
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Then how do you know that it was created on the evening of 11/22/63?
Do you have the guts to post the two different evidence lists that listed the evidence being released to the FBI ?.....
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Do you have the guts to post the two different evidence lists that listed the evidence being released to the FBI ?.....
Do you have the ability to post them?
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The "experimental shop" was full of lathes and generally produced prototypes. For really small production runs, the shop might have produced all the parts.
I am addressing incuriousness....the lack of even reasonable doubt: buoying rigidity of belief.
Jerry....reads like you were perhaps quoting "the Bug?"
Maybe you ought to give Bugliosi a read.
And a nice try....but I make an extra
effort to post only what is reasonable in that the details I post can be credibly supported!
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/180-10147-10175.pdf (https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/180-10147-10175.pdf)
Page 6 of 6.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHelsinkiVisaSpeed.jpg)
Still could have gotten a visa without all the intrigue.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/RosaleenQuinnEleanorMcMainHighSchool.jpg)
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2015.pdf (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2015.pdf)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldRussianRosaleenQuinn.jpg)
People in Russia who tried to help Oswald with the language said he had rudimentary skills.
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Maybe you ought to give Bugliosi a read.
I don't recall Tom saying that he had insomnia.
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Do you have the ability to post them?
NO
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Rosaleen look hot enough to get hired by Pan Am as a stewardess
in the mid 1950?s, to you?
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The "experimental shop" was full of lathes and generally produced prototypes. For really small production runs, the shop might have produced all the parts.
Maybe you ought to give Bugliosi a read.
Still could have gotten a visa without all the intrigue.
People in Russia who tried to help Oswald with the language said he had rudimentary skills.
Jerry, I replied to your post, here.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,119.msg2912.html#new
Re: Three thread topics on Frazier & his car. Basics= a Time & Zapruder Film Thread
? Reply #11
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Jerry, I replied to your post, here.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,119.msg2912.html#new (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,119.msg2912.html#new)
Re: Three thread topics on Frazier & his car. Basics= a Time & Zapruder Film Thread
? Reply #11
Thanks, Tom. Good information there to think about.
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The C2766 Carcano rifle was positively mailed by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago to Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle (with William Waldman of Klein's verifying this fact in his WC testimony), and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing the "Hidell" money order into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.
So Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") definitely ordered that rifle. There is no REASONABLE doubt about that fact.
Always preaching to the choir. Just something that caught my eye lately....From the Warren Report--------
According to its microfilm records, Klein's received an order for a rifle on March 13, 1963, on a coupon clipped from the February 1963 issue of the American Rifleman magazine. The order coupon was signed, in handprinting, "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." (See Commission Exhibit No. 773, p. 120.) It was sent in an envelope bearing the same name and return address in handwriting . Document examiners for the Treasury Department and the FBI testified unequivocally that the bold printing on the face of the mail-order coupon was in the handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald and that the writing on the envelope was also his.
A double whammy with the handwriting analysis there. Why would this mail order company keep an envelope that was presumably months old and with which the order had already been successfully processed?
Of course the response will be ...They kept everything on file ..everything :D
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Always preaching to the choir. Just something that caught my eye lately....From the Warren Report-------- A double whammy with the handwriting analysis there. Why would this mail order company keep an envelope that was presumably months old and with which the order had already been successfully processed?
Of course the response will be ...They kept everything on file ..everything :D
They didn't keep the actual envelope. They kept a microfiche copy of it.
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They didn't keep the actual envelope. They kept a microfiche copy of it.
Precisely.
(You beat me to it, Tim.)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TD6-J7zrPxI/AAAAAAAAEyU/MBp6S6rfvvg/s399/CE773.jpg)
Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html
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They didn't keep the actual envelope. They kept a microfiche copy of it.
I just love it when a self-satisfied poster sits back to chomp on his cigar then finds it exploding in his face.
Well done Tim. Thumb1:
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I just love it when a self-satisfied poster sits back to chomp on his cigar then finds it exploding in his face.
That was cute. I myself, just love it when a poster sit back on his cigar.
IN NOVEMBER 2015, DAVID VON PEIN SAID: I'll also add this....Even if that "12" seen in the postmark in CE773 is a postal zone code, I don't see why that couldn't simply mean that after Oswald dropped the letter into a mail slot right there at the Main Post Office in Dallas on 3/12/63 (which I can only assume he must have done since he bought the money order right there in the same building that same morning), the post office stamped the letter SOMEWHERE ELSE, in some OTHER postal zone (#12).
The mail DOES move around a lot. It's constantly moving from one location to another for sorting, etc.
So why does the "12" (even if it was a postal zone designation) HAVE to mean Oswald walked many blocks (or miles?) out of his way to mail his letter to Klein's? And even if the post office branch where Oswald bought the money order was the "Main" branch (which I think it was), would that HAVE to mean that every letter mailed there HAD to get STAMPED right there in that building too? I'm not sure it does mean any such thing. Perhaps the postal facility where Oswald's letter was sorted and postmarked was located in some other part of Dallas, and was sent there (to "Zone 12", if the "12" does, indeed, represent a "postal zone", which it might represent; I can't say it doesn't with 100% certainty), instead of being sorted and postmarked right there at the Main Post Office.
The number 12 isn't the way zones were depicted. That was correct at the outset. It is not likely that something that was then mailed at the main post office would be sent to another location to be canceled. Something so easily traced to Oswald's PO Box...why use the name Hidell?
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That was cute. I myself, just love it when a poster sit back on his cigar. The number 12 isn't the way zones were depicted. That was correct at the outset. It is not likely that something that was then mailed at the main post office would be sent to another location to be canceled. Something so easily traced to Oswald's PO Box...why use the name Hidell?
I myself, just love it when a poster sit back on his cigar.
Cigar???! ...Look again and sniff the air..... That ain't cigar smoke.
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a microfiche copy...
Was it not in the Dear Mr Hunt letter thread?... where the FBI states that due to the difficulty of analyzing copies of the letter...it was not possible to determine the authenticity of the handwriting. On the other hand the rifle order was readily determined as authentic. Again go figure-----
The FBI said without the original let-
ter it would be "almost impossible to
certify whether it is genuihe or not,"
the Justice Department source said.
"And they' (FBI) said^that Oswald
has a childlike handwriting and it's
easily forged,? the source said, "so they
just can't tell.?
https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/Hunt%20Mr%20Letter%2007_djvu.txt
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Was it not in the Dear Mr Hunt letter thread?... where the FBI states that due to the difficulty of analyzing copies of the letter...it was not possible to determine the authenticity of the handwriting. On the other hand the rifle order was readily determined as authentic. Again go figure----- https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/Hunt%20Mr%20Letter%2007_djvu.txt
It is preferable to have original documents over photographs of documents but that isn't always possible. What it comes down to though is the quality of the documents being examined. In the case of the Hunt document, the quality just wasn't there.
From the HSCA TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH McNALLY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk4/mcnally2.htm):
"Mr. MCNALLY - The conclusion of the panel was that the writing on all of these original documents was all done by the, same individual. That also included a number of photographs and photo reproductions. We also concluded these were done by the same individual. However, a word of caution must be introduced here because there are four or five of these documents which were only photo reproductions or photographs examined and compared with the other writings. These photographs of course cannot be examined with the same detail that the original document can be, and there is always some possibility that there are some alterations or something on these particular photographs which cannot be determined because they are not the original document. There is only one document on which we jointly could not arrive at any specific conclusion, and that is the so-called note, JFK exhibit F--506. That particular document is a very fuzzy reproduction and that particular reproduction we could not make any definite determination as to whether or not it was the same writing as all the other writings examined and compared and determined to be from the same individual."
=================================================================
From the WC TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. CADIGAN (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cadigan2.htm):
"Mr. EISENBERG. Are you able to identify the handwriting of an individual on the basis of a photograph of that handwriting?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you make an identification, such an identification, if your only questioned document was a photograph if the photograph was sufficiently clear?
Mr. CADIGAN. If the photograph is sufficiently clear, it is adequate for the handwriting comparison.
Mr. EISENBERG. Similarly with standards, if your only standard was a photograph or your only standards were photographs?
Mr. CADIGAN. If your standards were also photographs, it is possible to make the comparison and arrive at a definite opinion.
Mr. EISENBERG. And were the photographs in this case, both the standard and the questioned documents, clear enough to form the 'basis of an opinion?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. I might point out that some of the known standards are original documents and not photographs.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I am aware of that, but I wanted to set out on the record whether the standards which are photographs are adequate----
Mr. CADIGAN. They are adequate."
===================================================================
From the WC TESTIMONY OF ALWYN COLE (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cole1.htm):
"Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, some of the standards which are in the group 774 to 788 are photographs rather than originals.
Mr. COLE. That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does a photograph in your opinion provide a sufficient standard
on which to base a conclusion as to a questioned document?
Mr. COLE. Well, I believe these particular photographs are satisfactory for that purpose.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you draw a conclusion as to the origin of a questioned document if your only standard was a photograph?
Mr. COLE. If the photographs were comparable to the photographs we have in this case; yes."
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So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start. Oswald did not order this rifle intending to assassinate JFK. He had no clue when he ordered the rifle that JFK would ever come to Dallas or that he would happen to be working in a building overlooking the motorcade. He intended to use it to assassinate Walker. He used an alias to do so. Covering his tracks to the best of his ability. He never intended the rifle to be found in his Walker scenario and it was not. So it worked out fine in that instance. He had no similar option in the JFK assassination to get away with the rifle. He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus. He left within minutes. Got a cab for the first time. Not even pausing to ascertain what was going on. Even after a police officer pulled a gun on him. Oswald was in full flight murdering a police officer. Flight doesn't mean he was running away in a panic as some CTers mistakenly suggest constitutes flight. He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight). No proof that he owned a rifle? LOL. There are pictures of Oswald holding it. Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number. His prints are on the rifle. It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine. What evidence do you believe we should have that we do not under that circumstances that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the MC rifle?
Upon reviewing old posts about this rifle---That has to be the silliest.
>>>"Covering his tracks to the best of his ability"<<<< Does this poster ever preview his own blather? Supposedly, Oswald ordered said rifle in the name of Hidell which could apparently be quite easily traced to him. Supposedly, he had Marina take pictures of him with rifle, pistol, and a communist publication which were generated around the world.
Apparently, in his zeal to cover his tracks--Oswald disposed of all his ammunition except the four bullets that were supposedly employed in the alleged shooting at the motorcade and the ammunition that was utilized in the alleged shooting of a cop. There has never been a believable explanation regarding the absence of ammunition in the so called Oswald arsenal.
>>>"So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start."<<< As usual, Mr Smith starts with the decades old heralding of the Warren Report.
>>> "He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus".<<< ? What does that mean?
>>> " Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number."<<< Documents can't be forged?
Research indicates rifles were shipped with serial numbers that had been removed from them. WHAT SERIAL NUMBER? C2766 WHERE ARE YOU? Harry D. Holmes lied about postal procedures and the WC accepted that lie as fact. A week after the assassination Harry D. Holmes was quoted in a New York Times article where he stated:
"No one other than Oswald was authorized to receive mail at that box".
Holmes could not have made this statement unless he had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form after the assassination.
It was 24 hours before the alleged assassination weapon ceased to be a Mauser and became a Carcano.
Article here -- http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html
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Upon reviewing old posts about this rifle---That has to be the silliest.
>>>"Covering his tracks to the best of his ability"<<<< Does this poster ever preview his own blather? Supposedly, Oswald ordered said rifle in the name of Hidell which could apparently be quite easily traced to him. Supposedly, he had Marina take pictures of him with rifle, pistol, and a communist publication which were generated around the world.
Apparently, in his zeal to cover his tracks--Oswald disposed of all his ammunition except the four bullets that were supposedly employed in the alleged shooting at the motorcade and the ammunition that was utilized in the alleged shooting of a cop. There has never been a believable explanation regarding the absence of ammunition in the so called Oswald arsenal.
>>>"So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start."<<< As usual, Mr Smith starts with the decades old heralding of the Warren Report.
>>> "He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus".<<< ? What does that mean?
>>> " Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number."<<< Documents can't be forged?
Research indicates rifles were shipped with serial numbers that had been removed from them. It was 24 hours before the alleged assassination weapon ceased to be a Mauser and became a Carcano.
Article here -- http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html
Ugh. Your silly argument appears to be that there is so much evidence of Oswald's guilt that we can only conclude that he is innocent. Criminals often do stupid things and get caught. The JFK assassination was not contemplated at the time Oswald ordered the rifle. It provided a different set of parameters from the situation Oswald was contemplating when he ordered the rifle. Oswald did not anticipate, for example, having to leave the rifle at a crime scene to be found but if it were recovered the use of an alias might muddy the waters. There was certainly nothing to lose by using an alias instead of his real name. And for all Oswald knew, Klein's may not have kept any records of these transactions. What are you suggesting? That Oswald should have used his real name or made an in-person purchase directly from a gun shop where he might be remembered? In which case you would be here arguing that he should have mail ordered the rifle using an alias. James Earl Ray purchased his rifle from a gun shop and his face was remember by the guy who sold it to him. There is risk in that method of obtaining the rifle as well.
Here is a very simple notion for you to ponder. Shooting the president is fraught with enormous risk. The assassin is going to be killed or arrested no matter what they do. There is no getting away with it. Thus, when an assassin decides to make this attempt they accept arrest or death as part of calculation in deciding to commit this act. Oswald understood that. That is why he left his money and wedding ring at home that day. His goose was cooked the second he pulled the trigger. So claims that he wouldn't have left so much evidence to link him to the crime (i.e. a rifle that could be traced to him) are not persuasive to imply innocence. Oswald was already a person of interest to the FBI. He worked in the building from which shots were fired. He had no alibi. Oswald knew the authorities would be on to him in short order. He accepted his fate in return for the infamy of committing the act. This is where CTers ask why Oswald then tried to escape if there was no hope of getting away. We know criminals frequently do this no matter how hopeless the situation. They have nothing to lose. Oswald was facing death or life in prison. He was just playing out his hand for as long as possible. James Earl Ray made it to Canada and then London before he was caught. There is no getting away and going back to their normal life. These guys understand that. That is not inconsistent, however, with playing out their hand for as long as possible. Oswald had a couple hours head start. If he had not encountered Tippit, he very well could have made it out of Dallas and perhaps even to Mexico but he would have eventually been caught.
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There were 3 conspirators involved in the assassination
1) Alek Hidell (rhymes with 'Fidel') was in charge of weapon procurement
2) O.H. Lee was in charge of safe-house procurement
3) Lee Harvey Oswald (AKA 'Dirty Harvey') was in charge of fame procurement
;)
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It was 24 hours before the alleged assassination weapon ceased to be a Mauser and became a Carcano.
Article here -- http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html
The rifle that was found in the depository and was shown on television a few hours later, was Oswald's Carcano.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1eD6Ac9l_E/hqdefault.jpg)
The rifle that was taken out of the depository was Oswald's Carcano.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/day_clip.gif)
The rifle that was paraded before the Press later that day by Day, was Oswald's Carcano.
(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/from_my_friend_gil_jesus_files/image010.jpg)
JohnM
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The rifle that was found in the depository and was shown on television a few hours later, was Oswald's Carcano.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1eD6Ac9l_E/hqdefault.jpg)
The rifle that was taken out of the depository was Oswald's Carcano.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/day_clip.gif)
The rifle that was paraded before the Press later that day by Day, was Oswald's Carcano.
(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/from_my_friend_gil_jesus_files/image010.jpg)
JohnM
Great, now all you have to do is provide conclusive evidence that it was indeed "Oswald's Carcano"
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Oswald understood that. That is why he left his money and wedding ring at home that day. His goose was cooked the second he pulled the trigger. So claims that he wouldn't have left so much evidence to link him to the crime (i.e. a rifle that could be traced to him) are not persuasive to imply innocence. Oswald was already a person of interest to the FBI. He worked in the building from which shots were fired. He had no alibi. Oswald knew the authorities would be on to him in short order. He accepted his fate in return for the infamy of committing the act.
"'Richard' said so" is not evidence.
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Ugh.
"Ugh"? Seriously ?....ugh? When will you be 14?
Your silly argument appears to be that there is so much evidence of Oswald's guilt that we can only conclude that he is innocent.
You don't have a more descriptive variety of words? You have to repeat mine? Silly argument?-- The Keystone Cops of Dallas screwed up every aspect of the assassination from start to finish... from protection of Kennedy to protection of Oswald, despite warnings, tips and more warnings. And yet... yeah, they were too damn sure that Oswald was guilty before half of them ever knew his name.
Criminals often do stupid things and get caught.
Which contradicts your earlier post stating that Oswald was "covering his tracks to the best of his ability"..yet he was able to pull off the crime of the century all alone. Now that is silly.
Here is a very simple notion for you to ponder. Shooting the president is fraught with enormous risk.
Oh really? Gee, enlighten me more ???
John Iacolleti wrote.....
'Richard' said so is not evidence.
:-\ You mean it wasn't Oswald's rifle?
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The rifle that was found in the depository and was shown on television a few hours later, was Oswald's Carcano. The rifle that was taken out of the depository was Oswald's Carcano.
The rifle that was paraded before the Press later that day by Day, was Oswald's Carcano.
Yes Mr Mytton so we were led to believe...that the rifle or one of the rifles that were 'found' was paraded around. Regarding a Mauser, the WC simply dismissed that as an honest mistake. But three mistakes side by side? Now you can 'glance' at a water pistol and ID it as a water pistol.
Mr. BALL - In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?
Mr. WEITZMAN - In a glance, that's what it looked like.
Mr. BALL - That's what it looked like did you say that or someone else say that?
Mr. WEITZMAN - No; I said that. I thought it was one.
Mr. BALL - Are you fairly familiar with rifles?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods business awhile.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.
Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?**
Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.
Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.
** Seemed like things got testy there huh?
(http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/weitz.jpg)
Mr. BALL - There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.
Mr Ball kept it brief.
(http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/boone.jpg)
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.
They had to tell the story right. But how? Three cops [one of them a certified firearms expert] couldn't stand there and identify a weapon?...And had months to prepare their dubious testimony :-\
Me...I read the name of the manufacturer and caliber on the side to identify guns...Just like Fritz said--Only why didn't he say something that afternoon to the press?
"They called it most everything"...a sophomore answer for sure.
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Interesting that A. Hidell ordered the alleged rifle and the alleged pistol a month apart from different suppliers and yet according to the official timeline they both arrived at the Dallas Post Office on the very same day. What are the odds?
When first interviewed, Marina stated that she had never heard of the name 'Hidell'. However, by the time she testified, she said that she had heard it on Lee's radio conversation with Carlos Bringuier. AFAICT---the name Hidell was not mentioned on that debate and besides...I thought Marina didn't speak or understand English as she testified through an interpreter. The kindly [but disinterested] Warren Commissioners did not press forward on any of this. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=37#relPageId=76&tab=page
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Interesting that A. Hidell ordered the alleged rifle and the alleged pistol a month apart from different suppliers and yet according to the official timeline they both arrived at the Dallas Post Office on the very same day. What are the odds?
When first interviewed, Marina stated that she had never heard of the name 'Hidell'. However, by the time she testified, she said that she had heard it on Lee's radio conversation with Carlos Bringuier. AFAICT---the name Hidell was not mentioned on that debate and besides...I thought Marina didn't speak or understand English as she testified through an interpreter. The kindly [but disinterested] Warren Commissioners did not press forward on any of this. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=37#relPageId=76&tab=page
So why does it matter that they both arrived on the same day? And Marina's limited understanding of English somehow precludes her from recognizing a name? LOL. In the meantime, we should just ignore the mountain of actual evidence, wacky background, and numerous lies of kooky Oswald to focus on nonsense like that.
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So why does it matter that they both arrived on the same day? And Marina's limited understanding of English somehow precludes her from recognizing a name? LOL. In the meantime, we should just ignore the mountain of actual evidence, wacky background, and numerous lies of kooky Oswald to focus on nonsense like that.
Can someone actually be this numb ?::)?
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When first interviewed, Marina stated that she had never heard of the name 'Hidell'. However, by the time she testified, she said that she had heard it on Lee's radio conversation with Carlos Bringuier. AFAICT---the name Hidell was not mentioned on that debate and besides...I thought Marina didn't speak or understand English as she testified through an interpreter.
And Marina's limited understanding of English somehow precludes her from recognizing a name? LOL. In the meantime, we should just ignore the mountain of actual evidence to focus on nonsense like that.
Nonsense? >>>For once Smith is correct.
Further demonstrating that Marina was lying and that Smith doesn't know a 'mountain of evidence' from his backside...here is the transcript for all to srcutinize http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/stuck3.htm
Not once is the name 'Hidell mentioned.
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Nonsense? >>>For once Smith is correct.
Further demonstrating that Marina was lying and that Smith doesn't know a 'mountain of evidence' from his backside...here is the transcript for all to scutinize http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/stuck3.htm
Not once is the name 'Hidell mentioned.
I'm still stuck on your bizarre claim that Marina's limited English-skills somehow precluded her from remembering a name. btw: What is the Russian translation for "Hidell"?
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I'm still stuck on your bizarre claim that Marina's limited English-skills somehow precluded her from remembering a name. btw: What is the Russian translation for "Hidell"?
If you are stuck...don't blame me. Revise your perception [if that is doable] Go back and read the posts again. I have grown weary of your childish level of discernment.
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So why does it matter that they both arrived on the same day?
Two weapons ...Ordered a month apart...yet conveniently arrives on the very same exact day? The 187 thousandth coincidence.
The nameless postal clerk hands over two guns to Mr Hidell [not your common name at all]
Happens all the time- OK...yeah -sure- right. ::)
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The weapons were allegedly picked up at different places: the rifle at the post office and the revolver at Railway Express. But there is no evidence of such pickup in either place by Oswald or anybody else.
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The weapons were allegedly picked up at different places: the rifle at the post office and the revolver at Railway Express. But there is no evidence of such pickup in either place by Oswald or anybody else.
It is not necessary to determine who picked them up but we can draw a reasonable inference that they were probably picked up by Oswald because:
1. He wrote the order - his handwriting was verified by Marina;
2. He carried photo ID in the name of the consignee A. Hidell;
3. He was in possession of guns that are indistinguishable from those shipped shortly after they were mailed (backyard pictures, Gen. Walker shooting admission, Marina identified rifle, etc.)
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It is not necessary to determine who picked them up but we can draw a reasonable inference that they were probably picked up by Oswald because:
1. He wrote the order - his handwriting was verified by Marina;
2. He carried photo ID in the name of the consignee A. Hidell;
3. He was in possession of guns that are indistinguishable from those shipped shortly after they were mailed (backyard pictures, Gen. Walker shooting admission, Marina identified rifle, etc.)
3. He was in possession of guns that are indistinguishable from those shipped shortly after they were mailed
"indistinguishable".... an excellent choice of a word.... Researchers have been debating this point for decades....
I believe that Lee ordered a carcano from Klein's Sporting Goods.......after he and De morhenschildt picked it out of a magazine ad.
I'm inclined to agree with those who believe that Lee possessed a Carcano that was very similar to the carcano that was found in the TSBD and the TSBD rifle may? be the same rifle that appears in the BY photo CE 133A ....But there are definite differences ( distinguishable) between the TSBD carcano and the rifle in Lee's hand's in CE 133A.
And as to the pistol.... I'm not at all convinced that the pistol he is wearing on his right hip in CE 133A is a S&W model 10..... IMO the pistol on his hip looks like a western style six shooter.
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It is not necessary to determine who picked them up but we can draw a reasonable inference that they were probably picked up by Oswald because:
Let's stop right there with the conjecture. Supposedly... the weapons were conveyed around whenever and wherever Oswald changed location. Let's follow the pistol...Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice once in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs.
Mr. RANKIN. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can't say.
Their own timeline investigation states that the weapons were obtained on the same day.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.
The only time that Marina ever took any pictures...Of Lee with the weapons [she claimed]--But put no significance on the event? :-[
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs. Paine's car too?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where the pistol was.
So...where in hell was that doggoned pistol?
There was no discussion of Oswald going to the pistol range...just took the rifle out to the airport---- Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later.
At Love Field Airport :D..it cracks me up every time I see that. The Warren people knew that Marina was lying but they just let her ramble on.
At the HSCA hearing, the pistol was only mentioned twice...
Mr. PREYER. So that he went by bus to New Orleans, but he had packed his belongings and those were sent where?
Mrs. PORTER. Usually during the moving, Lee was always doing that. He was the one who did all the packing, not me.
Mr. PREYER. So that you and Mrs. Paine later brought all of the,----
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER [continuing]. Remaining luggage?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. PREYER. Including the rifle.
Rather than being a question....Preyer just made the assumption for everyone.
This is from the Clay Shaw trial----
Q: Did you ever see Lee with a pistol?
A: I don't remember now, sir.
Q: You don't remember seeing him with a pistol?
A: No....... ???
Q: Is it a fact you took a picture of him with a pistol and a rifle?
A: Yes, sir, I recall right now.
Q: When did you first see the pistol?
A: The thing was, sir, when I took the picture I didn't know how to take a picture -- even right now don't know -- I just took the picture, and later on in the picture I saw that.
Q: You didn't see the pistol when you were taking the picture?
A: No. I mean it happened to there, but I didn't. I can't recall exactly when I saw the pistol.
I have no idea what that last reply meant.
So Ruth and Marina loaded the car with stuff including the weapons [we are led to believe] but they had no idea that there were guns in the car. We are further told to believe that Marina and Ruth returned with at least the rifle and they had no clue that it was there. That leaves two probabilities....One-that Ruth and Marina were both complete mindless idiots..Or- two- that there never were any guns. Now believe what you want.
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Two weapons ...Ordered a month apart...
It looks like both Kleins and Seaport Traders invoiced Oswald's orders on the 13th of March?
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8PZM2r7/Waldman-Exhibit-7-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYrkRQcD/Michaelis-Exhibit-2.jpg)
JohnM
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It looks like both Kleins and Seaport Traders invoiced Oswald's orders on the 13th of March?
Wow, John, you would think that the evil, evil, evil, evil, evil bad guys would have been smarter than to do something so clearly and obviously ... gasp ... obvious!
-- MWT ;)
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January 28, 1962: LHO orders a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver by mail.
Actually, 1962 is a typo-- should be 1963.
March 12, 1963: LHO orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.
March 20, 1963: The rifle and the revolver are shipped.
March 25, 1963: LHO picks up the weapons.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
BTW--- an invoice date does not necessarily mean it was shipped on that exact day. What you mean by invoice?
Definition: An invoice is a document issued by a seller to the buyer that indicates the quantities and costs of the products or services provider by the seller. ... Payment terms indicate the maximum amount of time that a buyer has to pay for the goods and/or services that they have purchased from the seller.
https://www.reviso.com
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Two weapons ...Ordered a month apart...yet conveniently arrive on the very same exact day?
I think it's fairly clear from the Seaport records that Oswald didn't mail the order form for the pistol in January. The Seaport order coupon says "January 27", yes. But that doesn't mean it was put in a mailbox on Jan. 27. He probably mailed the order forms for both the revolver and the rifle on the same day (March 12). Otherwise there would be an inexplicably long (month-and-a-half) delay in processing the Seaport revolver order, which does not seem likely at all.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-48WL55CDfUg/VcOke8kKgGI/AAAAAAABG3s/qPahA0oXQVs/s211/The-Oswald-Never-Ordered-The-Rifle-Myth-Logo.png) (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html)
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Actually, 1962 is a typo-- should be 1963.http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
The 1/27 date written on the coupon is no indication of when it was posted!
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig02_080510.jpg)
BTW--- an invoice date does not necessarily mean it was shipped on that exact day.
Huh? An order form is invoiced and dated when the coupon is initially processed and the shipping date is when the product is shipped.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8PZM2r7/Waldman-Exhibit-7-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYrkRQcD/Michaelis-Exhibit-2.jpg)
JohnM
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1. He wrote the order - his handwriting was verified by Marina;
That’s news to me. Cite?
2. He carried photo ID in the name of the consignee A. Hidell;
So claimed the cops — after he was dead.
3. He was in possession of guns that are indistinguishable from those shipped shortly after they were mailed
“Indistinguishable”. LOL.
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Their own timeline investigation states that the weapons were obtained on the same day
But who are they trying to kid? There’s no record of either of them being picked up, or when, or by whom.
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But who are they trying to kid? There’s no record of either of them being picked up, or when, or by whom.
Yup...the pistol came COD? [not available anymore these days] So where are the Post Office records of the $10 advance payment and the $19.95 pickup payment?
I will say this about David Von Pein [if I haven't before]...We certainly don't agree on the conclusions of the REPORT but his work compiling his abundant JFK assassination materials is exemplary.
That stated..can he supply the links pertaining to the revolver order as requested above?
Mr Mytton stated..The 1/27 date written on the coupon is no indication of when it was posted!
I could agree. So it was [posted] the 28th or the 29th of January maybe [that Oswald sent his COD order] Why write a date of this order and not place it for a month? It's possible but not likely. I don't know how Tracy Parnell got that January date in the timeline..but the COMMISSION did not explore the pistol stuff AFAIK-- And what happened to Oswald's receipts? I mean ...my gosh! He kept every thing else that would incriminate him. The Walker photos ::) the [just in case] letter to Marina ::) the Hidell ID ::) the Backyard pictures etc and on and on.
I know I have changed the thread around to LHO ordered the guns but I think we have about exhausted the rifle stuff and all we really have that he ever possessed these weapons is......Marina said so.
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The rifle scam deconstructed by David Josephs,
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index
Go to section 4.
Thank you for posting the link to David Josephs manuscript....
I'd like to contact David....He clearly believes that the official in situ photo of the carcano is an authentic photo ....but is troubled by the fact that the photo does not match Tom Alyea's film of the rifle insitu.....
Clearly Mr Josephs doesn't realize that the official instu photo is a fake....created by the DPD. The official insitu photo shows the rifle about 13 feet from the north wall.... But Detective Robert Studebaker measured the distance to the place where the rifle lay horizontally on the floor beneath a pallet that had boxes of books stacked on it at 15 feet 4 inches. ( See Studebaker's map of the sixth floor) Nobody could have ran through the aisle at the top of the stairs and reached across to the 15 ' 4" place and placed the 8 pound rifle down on the floor beneath that wooden pallet. ( a humanly impossible feat) ...And the DPD KNEW that it was humanly impossible so they moved the rifle over two feet closer to the aisle at the top of the stairs.
If anybody is in contact with Mr Josephs please tell him that I'd love to discuss this with him.
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I think it's fairly clear from the Seaport records that Oswald didn't mail the order form for the pistol in January. The Seaport order coupon says "January 27", yes. But that doesn't mean it was put in a mailbox on Jan. 27. He probably mailed the order forms for both the revolver and the rifle on the same day (March 12). Otherwise there would be an inexplicably long (month-and-a-half) delay in processing the Seaport revolver order, which does not seem likely at all.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-48WL55CDfUg/VcOke8kKgGI/AAAAAAABG3s/qPahA0oXQVs/s211/The-Oswald-Never-Ordered-The-Rifle-Myth-Logo.png) (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html)
I fully agree with Von P.... Lee DID order a carcano from Kleins.....But So What??? That was months before the brutal ambush murder of President Kennedy....
Many believe that the rifle found in the TSBD that afternoon is the rifle that Kleins sent to PO 2915 in Dallas.....It "may" be the same rifle but it most certainly DOES NOT match the rifle that Lee is holding in the BY photo ( CE 133A) ...... Anybody with one good eye can see the differences......
And Yes...There "may" be a good sound explanation for the differences .....but the fact remains the two images appear to be different rifles.
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But that doesn't mean it was put in a mailbox on Jan. 27. (March 12). Otherwise there would be an inexplicably long (month-and-a-half) delay in processing the Seaport revolver order, which does not seem likely at all.
"He probably mailed the order forms for both the revolver and the rifle on the same day" And if that were true [anything is possible] for the shipments to have arrived on the very same day...as if both parcels were miraculously co-ordinated by fate..is equally unlikely.
Taking another look at the coupon....
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig02_080510.jpg)
Who is this 'witness'? A post office guy? Was he ever located? He could have set the record straight. This is what I mean about the WC just simply- thoroughly- not investigating.
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I think it's fairly clear from the Seaport records that Oswald didn't mail the order form for the pistol in January. The Seaport order coupon says "January 27", yes. But that doesn't mean it was put in a mailbox on Jan. 27. He probably mailed the order forms for both the revolver and the rifle on the same day (March 12). Otherwise there would be an inexplicably long (month-and-a-half) delay in processing the Seaport revolver order, which does not seem likely at all.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-48WL55CDfUg/VcOke8kKgGI/AAAAAAABG3s/qPahA0oXQVs/s211/The-Oswald-Never-Ordered-The-Rifle-Myth-Logo.png) (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html)
So, would you say that was intentional on his part to mail it in later with the January 27 date listed?
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Who is this 'witness'? A post office guy? Was he ever located? He could have set the record straight. This is what I mean about the WC just simply- thoroughly- not investigating.
The "D.F. Drittal" "witness" was written in OSWALD'S writing (per various handwriting analysts). So "Drittal" doesn't exist. It's a made-up person created by Lee Oswald.
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So, would you say that was intentional on his part to mail it in later with the January 27 date listed?
I don't know. It could be that after Oswald had already written in the January date on the order form, he then changed his mind for some reason and decided not to mail it in right away. So he just hung on to the filled-out order form and mailed it six weeks later (possibly when he had made a little more money).
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Yup...the pistol came COD? [not available anymore these days] So where are the Post Office records of the $10 advance payment and the $19.95 pickup payment?
Re: the initial ten-dollar payment....
Why would there be any "Post Office record" of that $10 cash payment that Oswald mailed directly to Seaport Traders?
Please explain why you think the post office would have even SEEN that $10 CASH payment sent by LHO. It was inside an envelope all the way from Dallas to Los Angeles.
I will say this about David Von Pein [if I haven't before]...We certainly don't agree on the conclusions of the REPORT but his work compiling his abundant JFK assassination materials is exemplary.
That stated..can he supply the links pertaining to the revolver order as requested above?
Pistol Talk....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-42.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/11/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-69.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-75.html
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Re: the initial ten-dollar payment....
Why would there be any "Post Office record" of that $10 cash payment that Oswald mailed directly to Seaport Traders?
Please explain why you think the post office would have even SEEN that $10 CASH payment sent by LHO. It was inside an envelope all the way from Dallas to Los Angeles.
Why would there be any "Post Office record" of that $10 cash payment that Oswald mailed directly to Seaport Traders?
There wouldn't be, but what about the balance of $19.95 to be paid (C.O.D) at the collection of the package?
How did that money (if it was ever collected) get to Seaport and where is the paper trail for it?
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Jerry asked me to weigh in since my timeline is referenced. DVP has it right as far as I can tell (haven't looked at this in a while). The order was filled out by LHO (not necessarily mailed) on the 27th. My chronology should have made that clearer. I had been working on a more detailed one and got up to early 1963 before getting sucked into a black hole known as Veciana.
"Drittal" was shown to be written by LHO by a handwriting expert:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=383&tab=page
As far as details of the revolver purchase, DVP links to an article by Dale Myers:
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html
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From December 2011....
DVP SAID:
"If the whole paper trail for the revolver was completely phony, why in the world did the plotters want to have Oswald paying for the gun via COD? Why not just fake it to make it look like Oswald had paid for the entire purchase price when he ordered it, just like the Patsy Framers supposedly did with LHO's Carcano purchase? The mysterious plotters didn't have Oswald paying COD for the rifle. Why did they do that with the revolver? The COD angle adds yet another level of needless complexity into such "fakery", because "they" need Oswald to make two payments instead of just one.
Of course, just HOW they managed to place the phony paperwork in the REA and Seaport files is another matter, which is yet another level of the plot that complicates the whole works, just as it does with the Klein's paperwork in Chicago. Because it was the Klein's people who scoured their records all night on Nov. 22-23 for the paper trail of LHO's rifle.
Do the CTers think that Klein's employees, like William Waldman and whoever might have been helping him find the documents, were "in" on the plot too? It's so silly, it's truly beyond ALL belief that such a complicated plot of fakery could have possibly taken place (or that anyone with any common sense could believe that anything of the sort could have occurred in this case).
But instead of just faking the Seaport documents, these overworked plotters decided it might be nice to add more levels of complexity into their fakery, so they had Railway Express act as the package delivery service for Oswald's "bogus" gun purchase. Therefore, STILL MORE paperwork had to needlessly be faked and created from whole cloth in order to meet the conspirators' demands.
I wonder why more conspiracy theorists can't see the built-in craziness of such a "faked paper trail" scheme? But I sure can.
You guys can't possibly really be serious in questioning Oswald's ownership of Revolver V510210, can you? The evidence is a mile deep that Oswald, in his OWN WRITING (which you also dispute is his, naturally) ordered both the revolver and the rifle. This is a FACT beyond dispute (to reasonable people, that is).
In fact, if you were to poll conspiracy theorists off the street who know at least a LITTLE something about the details of the JFK & Tippit murder cases, I'd bet that a vast majority would concede that the revolver and the rifle were Oswald's. (And as I mentioned twice previously, the "Patsy" plot even makes much more sense from the POV that the two guns WERE really Oswald's. The evil patsy framers would then have framed Oswald with HIS OWN WEAPONS.)
And the assertion by some conspiracy theorists that the gun that was wrested from Oswald's hands during the scuffle in the Texas Theater was really not Revolver V510210 is an assertion that's almost too ridiculous to even talk about.
Because if the gun taken from Oswald in the theater wasn't V510210, then we'd have to believe that the Dallas cops (and/or the FBI) had a desire to frame Oswald for a cop-killing he never committed (which is REALLY absurd when thinking about the DPD doing this, since a lot of those guys knew the slain officer personally, and certainly wouldn't want to see Tippit's murderer go free).
And if the gun taken from LHO wasn't the V510210 gun, we'd also have to assume that the cops and Federal agents then engaged in a very swift and efficient sinister plot of faking all of the various records pertaining to Oswald's mail-order purchase for the revolver. The cops must have then somehow convinced at least SOME employees of Seaport Traders to join in their frame-up of Oswald, because the paperwork concerning Oswald's revolver purchase was found in the SEAPORT FILES on November 30th, 1963.
JOSEPH BALL -- "That [Michaelis Exhibit No. 2] was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963?"
HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "Yes, it was."
Did the FBI send an agent to Seaport to "pose" as a Seaport employee so that this covert agent could then "plant" the "Hidell" invoice in the Seaport files?
It's only when you get to Internet forums like this one do you find the incredibly silly theories being tossed around -- such as Oswald NOT shooting Tippit, Oswald NOT shooting JFK, Oswald NOT purchasing the revolver, Oswald NOT purchasing the rifle, [etc.]."
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Original discussion:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/18411-where-is-the-checkmo-for-oswalds-10/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-239764
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The "D.F. Drittal" "witness" was written in OSWALD'S writing (per various handwriting analysts). So "Drittal" doesn't exist. It's a made-up person created by Lee Oswald.
OK or the creation of AJ Hidell...I mean look at it--The coupon order was written with what looks like a crayon. Given time, I could scribble that mess. Why would there be any "Post Office record" of that $10 cash payment that Oswald mailed directly to Seaport Traders?
Good question. Supposedly, Oswald was a believer in money orders. Why didn't Hidell/Oswald just send $30 for the pistol and be done with it? Why would a Hidell/Oswald individual then allegedly buy the money order to order the rifle [which was cheaper than the revolver if we can believe this to be any quality of a rifle]? I mean just stuff $22 in the order envelope and be done with it. the Klein's people who scoured their records all night on Nov. 22-23 for the paper trail of LHO's rifle.
So they say ::)You guys can't possibly really be serious in questioning Oswald's ownership of Revolver V510210, can you?
So they say.. but the alleged owner was killed and that ended the questions? Because if the gun taken from Oswald in the theater wasn't V510210, then we'd have to believe that the Dallas cops (and/or the FBI) had a desire to frame Oswald for a cop-killing he never committed (which is REALLY absurd when thinking about the DPD doing this, since a lot of those guys knew the slain officer personally, and certainly wouldn't want to see Tippit's murderer go free).
David..have you ever checked into that beyond the hype and the REPORT? J D Tippit was an 11 year patrolman with barely a grade school education. Not once in those 11 years was he ever promoted. Cops with less tenure were getting promotions to at least corporal. He was not popular in the department...for instance there was another cop on the force named Tippit [also well known by Jack Ruby] and much more popular with the department--anyway when the squad members found out that it was not that Tippit that was shot there was a sense of relief with many officers. I've heard this before but it is found in this book called Into the Nightmare [I believe] It all doesn't matter. Tippit was put in the ground the same day that Kennedy was...the same day that Oswald was and hailed as a hero even though he really did nothing heroic.
"we'd have to believe that the Dallas cops... had a desire to frame Oswald for a cop-killing he never committed" The DPD was 1. Embarrassed... but 2. Didn't care all that much about Kennedy anyway...mainly 3. Obeyed orders or else.
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From December 2011....
DVP SAID:
"If the whole paper trail for the revolver was completely phony, why in the world did the plotters want to have Oswald paying for the gun via COD? Why not just fake it to make it look like Oswald had paid for the entire purchase price when he ordered it, just like the Patsy Framers supposedly did with LHO's Carcano purchase? The mysterious plotters didn't have Oswald paying COD for the rifle. Why did they do that with the revolver? The COD angle adds yet another level of needless complexity into such "fakery", because "they" need Oswald to make two payments instead of just one.
Of course, just HOW they managed to place the phony paperwork in the REA and Seaport files is another matter, which is yet another level of the plot that complicates the whole works, just as it does with the Klein's paperwork in Chicago. Because it was the Klein's people who scoured their records all night on Nov. 22-23 for the paper trail of LHO's rifle.
Do the CTers think that Klein's employees, like William Waldman and whoever might have been helping him find the documents, were "in" on the plot too? It's so silly, it's truly beyond ALL belief that such a complicated plot of fakery could have possibly taken place (or that anyone with any common sense could believe that anything of the sort could have occurred in this case).
But instead of just faking the Seaport documents, these overworked plotters decided it might be nice to add more levels of complexity into their fakery, so they had Railway Express act as the package delivery service for Oswald's "bogus" gun purchase. Therefore, STILL MORE paperwork had to needlessly be faked and created from whole cloth in order to meet the conspirators' demands.
I wonder why more conspiracy theorists can't see the built-in craziness of such a "faked paper trail" scheme? But I sure can.
You guys can't possibly really be serious in questioning Oswald's ownership of Revolver V510210, can you? The evidence is a mile deep that Oswald, in his OWN WRITING (which you also dispute is his, naturally) ordered both the revolver and the rifle. This is a FACT beyond dispute (to reasonable people, that is).
In fact, if you were to poll conspiracy theorists off the street who know at least a LITTLE something about the details of the JFK & Tippit murder cases, I'd bet that a vast majority would concede that the revolver and the rifle were Oswald's. (And as I mentioned twice previously, the "Patsy" plot even makes much more sense from the POV that the two guns WERE really Oswald's. The evil patsy framers would then have framed Oswald with HIS OWN WEAPONS.)
And the assertion by some conspiracy theorists that the gun that was wrested from Oswald's hands during the scuffle in the Texas Theater was really not Revolver V510210 is an assertion that's almost too ridiculous to even talk about.
Because if the gun taken from Oswald in the theater wasn't V510210, then we'd have to believe that the Dallas cops (and/or the FBI) had a desire to frame Oswald for a cop-killing he never committed (which is REALLY absurd when thinking about the DPD doing this, since a lot of those guys knew the slain officer personally, and certainly wouldn't want to see Tippit's murderer go free).
And if the gun taken from LHO wasn't the V510210 gun, we'd also have to assume that the cops and Federal agents then engaged in a very swift and efficient sinister plot of faking all of the various records pertaining to Oswald's mail-order purchase for the revolver. The cops must have then somehow convinced at least SOME employees of Seaport Traders to join in their frame-up of Oswald, because the paperwork concerning Oswald's revolver purchase was found in the SEAPORT FILES on November 30th, 1963.
JOSEPH BALL -- "That [Michaelis Exhibit No. 2] was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963?"
HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "Yes, it was."
Did the FBI send an agent to Seaport to "pose" as a Seaport employee so that this covert agent could then "plant" the "Hidell" invoice in the Seaport files?
It's only when you get to Internet forums like this one do you find the incredibly silly theories being tossed around -- such as Oswald NOT shooting Tippit, Oswald NOT shooting JFK, Oswald NOT purchasing the revolver, Oswald NOT purchasing the rifle, [etc.]."
---------
Original discussion:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/18411-where-is-the-checkmo-for-oswalds-10/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-239764
To me the most incriminating evidence is that Conspirators would obviously use Oswald's actual name, the only person who would order weapons with an alias would by definition have to be Oswald.
And just to add another level of complexity we have Oswald's money order which was found in the National Archives and has a solid chain of custody.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGC4GRpL/backofmoneyorderinitial-zpsujp9yqie.jpg)
JohnM
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I know I have changed the thread around to LHO ordered the guns but I think we have about exhausted the rifle stuff and all we really have that he ever possessed these weapons is......Marina said so.
Not even Marina. She didn’t know what specific weapons he had.
And if we’re so satisfied with “Marina said so”, well Marina said that she took the backyard photos “towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March”.
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The "D.F. Drittal" "witness" was written in OSWALD'S writing (per various handwriting analysts). So "Drittal" doesn't exist. It's a made-up person created by Lee Oswald.
Handwriting “analysis”. LOL.
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Please explain why you think the post office would have even SEEN that $10 CASH payment sent by LHO. It was inside an envelope all the way from Dallas to Los Angeles.
So these two orders that he supposedly sent on the same day (that he was at work all day). . . he used cash for one but bothered to purchase a money order for the other?
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"If the whole paper trail for the revolver was completely phony, why in the world did the plotters want to have Oswald paying for the gun via COD?
When the evidence doesn’t support the narrative, why do nutters always fall back on “why would plotters do that” arguments?
There’s either evidence of this alleged COD payment or there is not.
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There’s either evidence of this alleged COD payment or there is not.
There is. CTers, of course, will forever ignore it, but there is evidence that the COD balance of $19.95 was paid to Seaport. It's in Heinz Michaelis' WC testimony [7 H 378-379 (http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0193b.htm)]....
JOE BALL -- "Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?"
HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The fact that the exhibit number...was attached to the red copy of the invoice...indicates that the money was received."
Plus, the word "Paid" is written right on the Seaport invoice too (Michaelis Exhibit No. 2). But I guess CTers must think the word "PAID" means exactly the opposite and that Seaport never received the $19.95 balance at all, huh? ~shrug~
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o9XklceDIsA/WVgZlYVWy1I/AAAAAAABMJo/3ChJU7AUBRwrkuky-FZ6YkRxDiJ_eIWZgCLcBGAs/s1600/Michaelis-Exhibit-2.jpg)
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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-42.html
Pistol Talk....
"Oswald's P.O. Box was at the Main Post Office in the Federal Building, 1114 Commerce Street
BTW..that's not correct. The old MPO was at Bryan and North St Paul. The bldg is still called that on the map
but was converted into luxury apartments.
I know all about the old MPO because I worked there as a postal clerk.
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Plus, the word "Paid" is written right on the Seaport invoice too (Michaelis Exhibit No. 2). But I guess CTers must think the word "PAID" means exactly the opposite and that Seaport never received the $19.95 balance at all, huh? ~shrug~
The word “paid” is written in the blank that says “excise tax”, but regardless...
Anyone can write the word “paid” on a piece of paper during or after the fact. But if this was paid by Oswald or somebody else, It would have gone into a till and ultimately ended up in Railway Express account somewhere with a paper trail, along with a transfer of those funds back to Seaport Traders into their account somewhere with a paper trail. When and how did any of this happen if the transaction was legitimate?
It was bad enough that Klein’s trotted out a February deposit slip for an alleged March transaction, but Railway Express and Seaport Traders didn’t even have that.
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BTW..that's not correct. The old MPO was at Bryan and North St Paul. The bldg is still called that on the map
but was converted into luxury apartments.
I know all about the old MPO because I worked there as a postal clerk.
Interesting, Jerry. When you worked there, what time on weekday mornings did you open up the clerk stations for selling money orders?
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Interesting, Jerry. When you worked there, what time on weekday mornings did you open up the clerk stations for selling money orders?
I was a sorting clerk. The window clerks opened [as they do now] at 8 AM. The main Dallas Post Office was in the Federal Courthouse [Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes office was also there for interest]
After reviewing his [DVP] links, I am still confused about the COD delivery of the Smith .38---
[A] further charge that "no record exists to show that Hidell/Oswald ever took possession of [the rifle and pistol]." [21] The charge infers that there should be a record, when in fact, none was required. Robert C. Hendon, Vice President in Charge of Operations, Railway Express Agency (REA) did propose to the Dodd Committee a change in the law which would require a consignee to sign a delivery receipt which would be retained by the carrier. [22] But, at the time of the Oswald order, REA Express rules did not require such a signature.
So someone apparently showed up and presented the HIDELL cards like were allegedly found on Oswald...told someone he wanted his gun...handed over 19.95 and then left. The only "proof" that this is what happened is the ticket copy and that really isn't much at all. The accompanying testimony in the Warren Report is made by someone who wasn't there. This handwriting expert stuff is just laughable.
Texas law states that one who wishes to purchase a pistol or handgun must first obtain from a justice of the peace, county judge, or district judge of the county of his residence a certificate of good character. [25] Although REA Express would withhold shipments to consignees who failed to display a license or permit in states requiring same, REA regulations do not specifically address whether a shipment would be withheld if a certificate of good character was not presented.
See the contradiction? The package was shipped C.O.D. to: A.J. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas, with a balance of $19.95 due, plus C.O.D. charges. Two REA Express documents accompanied the shipment: (1) a description of the contents of the package [33], and (2) a C.O.D. document directing REA to remit the amount collected to Seaport Traders. [34]
This was certainly a roundabout way of a delivery...because it didn't matter what the Railway express rules and terms were...it was back on the USPO to ascertain a proper legal delivery. So Hidell signed nothing ...He didn't have to. There was no addressed ID?...He didn't need one...What happens to all these notification of delivery cards? Who cares? So the counter clerk just throws it away?...a violation BTW.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig03_080510.jpg)
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig01_080510.jpg)
It still remains that even [hypothetically] if the rifle and Smith were ordered on the same day...paid for [by different methods yet] on the same day... the odds of their arriving for pick-up on the same day are really quite remote. And apparently all at the same post office [where Harry Holmes worked]
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There is. CTers, of course, will forever ignore it, but there is evidence that the COD balance of $19.95 was paid to Seaport. It's in Heinz Michaelis' WC testimony [7 H 378-379 (http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0193b.htm)]....
JOE BALL -- "Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?"
HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The fact that the exhibit number...was attached to the red copy of the invoice...indicates that the money was received."
Plus, the word "Paid" is written right on the Seaport invoice too (Michaelis Exhibit No. 2). But I guess CTers must think the word "PAID" means exactly the opposite and that Seaport never received the $19.95 balance at all, huh? ~shrug~
Sorry, David, but this is an extremely weak argument.
All this really tells us is that Michaelis concludes from a red copy of the invoice being attached that payment was received. That's all!
It does not show in any way or form that Michaelis actually knew for sure the payment was recieved. One thing we do know for sure though is that no document has ever surfaced regarding a money transfer of $19.95 from Dallas to Seaport. On a matter, as important as this one and with all the investigative power of the FBI available, why do you, David, think that is so? Are you really going to tell us that investigators were unable to trace a simple transfer and thus needed to rely upon a conclusion made by a manager like Michaelis?
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Sorry, David, but this is a extremely weak argument....It does not show that Michaelis actually knew for sure the payment was received. One thing we do know for sure is that no document has ever surfaced regarding a money transfer of $19.95 from Dallas to Seaport.
Even if there was...there is no record [that I can find] verifying from whom the payment was received--- making for an even more feeble argument.
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The proof that Oswald picked up the revolver, regardless of where he picked it up, is the undeniable fact that Mr. Oswald had Revolver V510210 in his hands when he was arrested in the Texas Theater on 11/22/63.
David Von Pein
The Michaelis Exhibit #2 does show 510210 written in. That could have possibly been at any time an otherwise numberless document or copy of it was handled. Why wasn't it typed in with the rest of the info on the invoice? It looks illegitimate funny as hell. I wonder if the OSWALD DID IT crowd would be willing to stake their lives on the honesty and integrity of a 1963 Dallas Police Dept? I sure as hell wouldn't.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o9XklceDIsA/WVgZlYVWy1I/AAAAAAABMJo/3ChJU7AUBRwrkuky-FZ6YkRxDiJ_eIWZgCLcBGAs/s1600/Michaelis-Exhibit-2.jpg)
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The Michaelis Exhibit #2 does show 510210 written in. .... Why wasn't it typed in with the rest of the info on the invoice?
Because that's (obviously) not the way it was done at mail-order outfits that sold firearms. The serial numbers are WRITTEN IN by hand once the company knows for sure which gun is going to actually be shipped to that particular customer. The exact same "Written In By Hand" serial number occurred on Waldman Exhibit No. 7 for Oswald's rifle too. The "C2766" isn't typed in; it's handwritten. It's just the way those type of transactions work. (Or do you think the "C2766" was written in by some plotter AFTER the assassination?)
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The Michaelis Exhibit #2 does show 510210 written in. That could have possibly been at any time an otherwise numberless document or copy of it was handled. Why wasn't it typed in with the rest of the info on the invoice?
“Coincidentally”, the same was the case on the Klein’s “order blank”.
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Because that's (obviously) not the way it was done at mail-order outfits that sold firearms.
Obviously. ::)
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The proof that Oswald picked up the revolver, regardless of where he picked it up, is the undeniable fact that Mr. Oswald had Revolver V510210 in his hands when he was arrested in the Texas Theater on 11/22/63.
David Von Pein
That is absolutely deniable. It’s not even true. By all accounts the struggle for the gun happened before the (illegal) arrest.
But there isn’t any evidence that V510210 was even there in the theater. Gerald Hill pulled a revolver with no documented chain of custody out of his pocket 2 hours later at the station, several cops initialed it then, and then it was submitted into evidence.
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...there isn’t any evidence that V510210 was even there in the theater.
::)
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There is. CTers, of course, will forever ignore it, but there is evidence that the COD balance of $19.95 was paid to Seaport. It's in Heinz Michaelis' WC testimony [7 H 378-379 (http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0193b.htm)]....
JOE BALL -- "Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?"
HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The fact that the exhibit number...was attached to the red copy of the invoice...indicates that the money was received."
Plus, the word "Paid" is written right on the Seaport invoice too (Michaelis Exhibit No. 2). But I guess CTers must think the word "PAID" means exactly the opposite and that Seaport never received the $19.95 balance at all, huh? ~shrug~
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o9XklceDIsA/WVgZlYVWy1I/AAAAAAABMJo/3ChJU7AUBRwrkuky-FZ6YkRxDiJ_eIWZgCLcBGAs/s1600/Michaelis-Exhibit-2.jpg)
The word "paid" is written right there on the invoice. Back in the old days a lot of businesses used to stamp the word "paid" on invoices and receipts.
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That is absolutely deniable. It’s not even true. By all accounts the struggle for the gun happened before the (illegal) arrest.
But there isn’t any evidence that V510210 was even there in the theater. Gerald Hill pulled a revolver with no documented chain of custody out of his pocket 2 hours later at the station, several cops initialed it then, and then it was submitted into evidence.
John,
Illegal arrest?
You just made that up.
-- MWT ;)
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The word "paid" is written right there on the invoice. Back in the old days a lot of businesses used to stamp the word "paid" on invoices and receipts.
IMO .....The word "paid" is referring to the excise tax......
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Illegal arrest?
They had no probable cause to even search him, much less to arrest him for murder.
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That is absolutely deniable. It’s not even true. By all accounts the struggle for the gun happened before the (illegal) arrest.
But there isn’t any evidence that V510210 was even there in the theater. Gerald Hill pulled a revolver with no documented chain of custody out of his pocket 2 hours later at the station, several cops initialed it then, and then it was submitted into evidence.
But there isn’t any evidence that V510210 was even there in the theater.
V510210 ??? "V"?? On the evidence list..... The S&W revolver is identified by the serial # 510210.... There is no "V" preceding the number.
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Let's not get too far off topic. I have already changed it enough to---LHO ordered the weapons?
Because that's (obviously) not the way it was done at mail-order outfits that sold firearms.
Proof that it's obvious? Also ...the serial # is incomplete. In addition --it is obvious [apparently] that bullets for the S&W must have been obtained in a grab bag from some gun shop.
I have gone through the DVP links and the links that he links and remain unconvinced that Oswald ordered/obtained the guns.
Even David Von Pein seemed confused as he amended his conclusions several times...
"3. There is no evidence of a notification card telling LHO to do this [i.e., go to REA to pick up the gun]."
And that's very likely due to the fact that Oswald didn't need to go to the Railway Express office to pick up the revolver. He picked it up right there at the post office.
[EDIT: I have since changed my opinion on this point. See the Dale Myers' quote and article above.]
[ADDITIONAL EDIT: But also see THIS POST, which includes the Post Office regulations for the handling of C.O.D. mail, which seem to indicate that my original interpretation of Oswald picking up his revolver at the Dallas Post Office might not be incorrect after all.]
Plus: Even if Oswald was required to go to the REA office to get the gun, why on Earth would the slip of paper telling him to do so need to be retained by anybody? That type of paperwork would very likely get thrown away after Oswald picked up his merchandise.
That type of paperwork would very likely get thrown away after Oswald picked up his merchandise. A customer submits notification that they have a delivery and so the service employee tosses this proof of pickup away? Just routine huh?
Did Oswald pick up the S&W at the railway office or the post office? It only matters that he picked it up somewhere because they say he did.
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Let's not get too far off topic. I have already changed it enough to---LHO ordered the weapons? Proof that it's obvious? Also ...the serial # is incomplete. In addition --it is obvious [apparently] that bullets for the S&W must have been obtained in a grab bag from some gun shop.
I have gone through the DVP links and the links that he links and remain unconvinced that Oswald ordered/obtained the guns.
Even David Von Pein seemed confused as he amended his conclusions several times...That type of paperwork would very likely get thrown away after Oswald picked up his merchandise. A customer submits notification that they have a delivery and so the service employee tosses this proof of pickup away? Just routine huh?
Did Oswald pick up the S&W at the railway office or the post office? It only matters that he picked it up somewhere because they say he did.
it is obvious [apparently] that bullets for the S&W must have been obtained in a grab bag from some gun shop.
The spent 38 cases look like they been in a leather cartridge belt in a damp or humid climate....It's difficult to be sure when one has only photos of the cases ...but... They appear to be corroded as happens when cartridges are stored in a cartridge belt. Cops routinely store ammo in a cartridge belt....and if they fail to rotate the ammo and use up the old ammo, on the firing range, and replace the old cartridges with new fresh ammo, the cartridges become corroded. Also the fact that there were two different brands of ammo is an indication that the shells could have been in a cop's cartridge belt. The spent shells were manufactured by Winchester and Remington Peters ....These shells were commonly used by Police Departments throughout the country....and therefore it was not uncommon for a cop's cartridge belt to contain a mixture of cartridges.
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But there isn’t any evidence that V510210 was even there in the theater.
V510210 ??? "V"?? On the evidence list..... The S&W revolver is identified by the serial # 510210.... There is no "V" preceding the number.
Mr. BALL. Now, what serial number did the FBI give you?
Mr. MICHAELIS. V, as in victory, 510210-65248.
Mr. BALL. Now, those two numbers signify what?
Mr. MICHAELIS. The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as the crane number.
Mr. BALL. Now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun?
Mr. MICHAELIS. As mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of the gun.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Mr. MICHAELIS. And also it appears on the lower part of the barrel.
Furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the gun. In other words, the first number, 510210, appears three times on the gun.
Mr. BALL. And that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is that right?
Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. But, we are---it is required that since Smith & Wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the so-called crane number.
Mr. BALL. Is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number?
Mr. MICHAELIS. I am not familiar with the word assembly number.....
Why did he stop short when he said "Yes but we are...." Did someone shake their head at him?
"We are'' What? Required to list the complete numbers on the invoice?
Mr Michaelis boss [Mr Rose] ---- Why was he hanging out?
The testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis was taken at 10 a.m., on May 11, 1964, at 1200 North Soto Street, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. George A. Rose, President of George Rose & Co., was present.
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Why did he stop short when he said "Yes but we are...." Did someone shake their head at him?
"We are'' What? Required to list the complete numbers on the invoice?
Mr Michaelis boss [Mr Rose] ---- Why was he hanging out?
The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as the crane number.
So now not only did the revolver not have the "V" preceding the serial number .....it also apparently did not have the number 65248 stamped on it....
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Prove that the control number above the serial number was an actual Klein's control number, then you have a minute chance of keeping your fantasy alive.
Good luck!
Waldman Exhibit No. 4 (below) proves that Klein's assigned the Control Number of VC-836 to the exact rifle that Klein's shipped to Oswald, Serial Number C2766....
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0362b.htm
And the VC-836 / C2766 match is confirmed by Klein's Vice President William J. Waldman in his Warren Commission
testimony (at 7 H 364 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0186b.htm))....
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C2766?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.
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Am I supposed to now believe that the document marked as Waldman Exhibit No. #4 is a fake document too? And am I therefore also supposed to believe that William Waldman was lying through his teeth in his above testimony?
I'll repeat here something I asked the stubborn batch of conspiracy theorists at The Education Forum a few years ago....
How many things that appear to be kosher does it take to make an item cross over into the category of "Real and Legitimate"? Or is that a stupid question to ask a conspiracy believer?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html
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Did Oswald pick up the S&W at the railway office or the post office? It only matters that he picked it up somewhere because they say he did.
Whoever picked it up (if indeed it was picked up by anybody) would have done so at the Railway Express office.
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Waldman Exhibit No. 4 (below) proves that Klein's assigned the Control Number of VC-836 to the exact rifle that Klein's shipped to Oswald, Serial Number C2766....
“Shipped to Oswald”. LOL.