Josiah Thompson wrote Six Seconds in Dallas in 1967 after three years of intense research and investigation. It is chock full of valuable information.
I don't know if it's available on line, but I'm sure most libraries still have copies of it......
If you've read it there are a couple of points that i'd like to discuss.
Tink backed away from the "shallow" back wound claim caused by a weak-charge round. The HSCA said the shift in muscle groups between how they were at wounding and how they were at autopsy probably sealed off the missile passage through the neck.
Nonetheless, the best CT book out there, followed by, I guess, Jim Marrs' "Crossfire".
A BIG part of that book are the interviews of Eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza that Thompson conducted. PORTIONS of those Interviews are included in the book. Sitzman claimed to have witnessed seeing JFK HIT "between the eye and the ear". She also claimed to have been questioned by an Identified G-Man up on the Knoll. Thompson's interview of Bill Newman corroborates most if not all of what Sitzman detailed regarding where the shot(s) struck the head of JFK. Bearing in mind these interviews were conducted Only 3 years after the assassination means the memories were fresh in the mind of those being questioned by Thompson. Also, these interviews were possibly the 1st detailed Q/A interviews these witnesses gave. These interviews are Extremely Important Eyewitness Historical Documentation!
Josiah Thompson wrote Six Seconds in Dallas in 1967 after three years of intense research and investigation. It is chock full of valuable information.
I don't know if it's available on line, but I'm sure most libraries still have copies of it......
If you've read it there are a couple of points that i'd like to discuss.
Thompson got it right in this book. For some odd reason, he went back on it years later. But he had it right. The six-second sequence of the shooting is spot on. You can see it immediately after Kennedy is seen reappearing from the sign. Then it goes on to Z313 which is about 6.2 seconds or so.
There's been a lot of craziness in the coming years about shots way up earlier to justify the Tague chips shot, so-called sparks and so on. It's all baloney. Ask yourself - if there was a conspiracy (and I do believe there was) would the shooters have started to fire when they knew there was going to be an oak tree there? No, they wouldn't. Think of the zone like a box - as soon as the car was in the box - that's when the shooting starts. Exactly where Thompson said it was. It's not hard to figure out.
Probably the best interview in the book is Josiah' s interview of Sam Holland.... ( Mark Lane also did a excellent interview of Sam Holland) And as Thompson said in SSID Holland possessed a rare kind of honesty and courage..... Which is exactly my observation in Mark Lane's video.....
The interviews Thompson did are invaluable. They can Not be Changed. Seeing Thompson banging around like Columbo in a beat up car and sporting wrinkled clothing prior to achieving success/$$ with his "6 Seconds" makes me think his changing assassination philosophy was more in line with "follow the money". I'm Not a Groden guy, but he stuck to his guns and was rewarded with a card table inside Dealey Plaza on weekends.
Here he explains how he made a mistake years ago:
Not a valid vimeo URL
Maybe your couple of points that you want to discuss are addressed in that video.
Be nice if more critics had the willingness to let some claims go, as Thompson did in his "Chapter X" called "Answered and Unanswered Questions".
Yeah, everybody Knows that a bullet fired Downward and striking a victim in the Back will Exit via the Throat/ Adams Apple.
Sure. Anybody with a smidgen of common sense.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/50/29/gP4bRQ2M_o.jpg)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/50/29/gP4bRQ2M_o.jpg)
The interviews Thompson did are invaluable. They can Not be Changed. Seeing Thompson banging around like Columbo in a beat up car and sporting wrinkled clothing prior to achieving success/$$ with his "6 Seconds" makes me think his changing assassination philosophy was more in line with "follow the money". I'm Not a Groden guy, but he stuck to his guns and was rewarded with a card table inside Dealey Plaza on weekends.
Perfect. EVERY time this is posted it displays the bullet Exiting the upper chest/Sternum. Not in the neck/Above the tie knot. This Exiting from the Upper Chest/Sternum was also on display when Specter took that photo with him holding the pointer. "Plain as day"!
This image is wrong because it assumes the bullet moves in a straight line through Kennedy. The bullet is travelling through several different layers in Kennedys neck which could have caused the bullet to arc upwards as it passed through his neck. Just like bullets ark upwards when fired through water.
Yeah. Ditch that diagram YOU Posted due to it defeating your point, and instead proffer a suspect autopsy photo. Frying Pan Meet Fire!
The bottom line of the ledger sheet rules most of these people. Bill O'Reilly included. Like I said, "5 Fingers" Groden stood his ground and that's exactly where he Fell.
Tink had access to a good copy of the Zapruder film earlier than most others did. He found a way to make some money from that advantage. Time/Life sued him for using sketches of some of the frames in his book. It appears to me that Tink prematurely changed his opinion of what the Zapruder film shows based upon the rushed, and later shown to be flawed, acoustics study by the HSCA. He apparently laughs all the way to the bank after pandering to his audience by telling them what they want to hear...
Compare that with the advance that Bugliosi got for his pandering.
Like I said, "5 Fingers" Groden stood his ground and that's exactly where he Fell.
Thompson got it right in this book. For some odd reason, he went back on it years later. But he had it right. The six-second sequence of the shooting is spot on. You can see it immediately after Kennedy is seen reappearing from the sign. Then it goes on to Z313 which is about 6.2 seconds or so.
There's been a lot of craziness in the coming years about shots way up earlier to justify the Tague chips shot, so-called sparks and so on. It's all baloney. Ask yourself - if there was a conspiracy (and I do believe there was) would the shooters have started to fire when they knew there was going to be an oak tree there? No, they wouldn't. Think of the zone like a box - as soon as the car was in the box - that's when the shooting starts. Exactly where Thompson said it was. It's not hard to figure out.
Bugs didn’t need no stinkin’ lawyers!!!
Bugs didn’t need no stinkin’ lawyers!!!
If I remember right Bungelosie had some legal problems with one of his ghost writers.
He didn't want to give the person his kudos in the book credits.
There was an out of court settlement.
Josiah Thompson wrote Six Seconds in Dallas in 1967 after three years of intense research and investigation. It is chock full of valuable information.
I don't know if it's available on line, but I'm sure most libraries still have copies of it......
If you've read it there are a couple of points that i'd like to discuss.
If I remember right Bungelosie had some legal problems with one of his ghost writers.Dale Myers?
Tink had access to a good copy of the Zapruder film earlier than most others did. He found a way to make some money from that advantage. Time/Life sued him for using sketches of some of the frames in his book. It appears to me that Tink prematurely changed his opinion of what the Zapruder film shows based upon the rushed, and later shown to be flawed, acoustics study by the HSCA. He apparently laughs all the way to the bank after pandering to his audience by telling them what they want to hear...
It sometimes helps to do the math.
Yes, it can help but not always. Go by what you can see in the film and watch the timing of it. The women witnesses said they yelled "over here" and he suddenly looks that way and waves to them. No shots yet. He goes behind the sign, reappears and the shots start just at that point.
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/bugliosi-vincent-reclaiming-history-thompson
Vincent Bugliosi, Reclaiming History
Written by Josiah Thompson
Epic book resurrects finding that Oswald acted alone in killing JFK
Bugliosi picks only the evidence that backs his argument
~snip~
"Even more egregious is his handling of the trajectory through JFK's back and neck. A face-sheet on which notes were taken during the autopsy shows the supposed exit wound in the throat to be higher than the entry wound in the back.
When the autopsy photos were finally produced in the 1970s, a medical panel concluded that the course of the bullet through Kennedy was at an upward angle (the accepted number is 11 degrees). So how does Kennedy get shot from the sixth floor of a building when the bullet takes an upward path through his body?
The Warren Commission took the simplest course. The staff let the autopsy doctor instruct a medical illustrator to raise the back wound from the back to the neck. Commission member U.S. Rep. Gerald Ford then corrected a final draft of the panel's report to read "neck wound" rather than "back wound." Voila, a "back wound" had become a "neck wound."
Faced with that 11 degree upward angle, the House Select Committee on Assassinations took a more inventive approach in its 1978-79 investigation. It just leaned Kennedy forward at the time he was shot.
And Connally, who took a shot at a 27-degree downward angle? His body position was leaned back a sufficient amount. Voila, an 11-degree upward angle through one body had become a 27-degree downward angle through a second body, thus a straight line had been maintained."
~snip~
Here he explains how he made a mistake years ago:
Not a valid vimeo URL
Maybe your couple of points that you want to discuss are addressed in that video.
IMO, the entire row of people on the north side of Elm street are unusually still.
Charlie.....I'm having trouble playing the video ..... It stops at various points and won't restart.... I'd really like to see the entire video..... Is anybody else experiencing problems?
What misrepresentations. Ford merely changed the "below the shoulder" description (what does that mean? Below the shoulder line? Below the shoulder muscle mass?) to the base of the back of the neck description in the autopsy report. Ford was making things MORE accurate.
Clyde Snow developed the confusing theory that the wound track was upward in an anatomical-position model. Adjustments based on the films and photos were then made to determine the body position at the time of the wounding. The missile track then went downwards from the back to the front.
Critics like to content the "upward" trajectory occurred at the time of the wounding. But that's not what Snow was arguing. Read HSCA Volume VI, beginning page 43 ( Link (http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0025a.htm) ).
BS.
Can you point to the Z-frame when he was hit in the back of the neck?
Cyril Wecht pointed out during the HSCA proceedings:
Unless JFK bent over to tie his shoes when he went behind the Stemmons sign and got shot in that position, then straightened back up before emerging, the wound in his back is on a upward trajectory.
Even the WC commission new the back wound was lower than the throat wound.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundautopsyphotos.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundwc_1.jpg)
~snip~
The back wound was moved up from "below the shoulder blade to the right of the spine " to the neck by Gerald R Ford.....An "EX" FBI agent who was a spy for J.E Hoover on the warren Commission.... Ford was rewarded for his derailing of the investigation by free room and board in our White house....
BS.
Can you point to the Z-frame when he was hit in the back of the neck?
Cyril Wecht pointed out during the HSCA proceedings:
Unless JFK bent over to tie his shoes when he went behind the Stemmons sign and got shot in that position, then straightened back up before emerging, the wound in his back is on a upward trajectory.
Even the WC commission new the back wound was lower than the throat wound.
The back wound was moved up from "below the shoulder blade to the right of the spine " to the neck by Gerald R Ford.....An "EX" FBI agent who was a spy for J.E Hoover on the warren Commission.... Ford was rewarded for his derailing of the investigation by free room and board in our White house....
I doubt a bullet from the SN would have been able to cross above the seat back to enter at T6.
Walt has latched on to Rankin's description of the back wound entering "below the shoulder blade". This, of course, is impossible. The bullet would have either encountered bone T6 or lower and damaged a lower lobe of the lung. Didn't happen. I doubt a bullet from the SN would have been able to cross above the seat back to enter at T6. Also the autopsy wound location and photographs do not support a wound entry below the scapula.
Critics are taking little cherry-picks and understandable, forgivable mistakes, and making a mountain out of them. It's not unique to the critics or other similar cults with a cause. It's systematic and psychiatrists are waking up to the impact of conspiracy-think on society. Fox News parlayed "sound bites" into a movement that appealed to idiots and eventually got the likes of Trump into the White House.
Two FBI agents, James Sibert and Francis O’Neill, attended the autopsy of President Kennedy.
They wrote a detailed report about everything they saw and heard.
It is the only contemporaneous eye–witness account of events at the autopsy.
During the HSCA they gave, independently of each other, what they saw as the location of the wound in JFK's back and throat on the diagrams below.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/sebert.jpg)
-------------------------
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/oneil.jpg)
Referring to 000995 .... The back of JFK's head is missing, and the bullet path through his body slants downward from front to back.....And JFK was slammed violently against the seat back... This makes perfect sense for a sniper at the front of JFK.....but none of it makes sense it the sniper was to the rear.
A sniper to the rear would have blown out the front of JFK skull..... and the bullet path through the body would have been slanted downward so the bullet wouldn't have exited his throat .....and he would have been blown forward not backward, by the impact of the bullet to his head.
Yeah, I can see why Sibert and O'Neill -- under the influence of CT kooks espousing theories and going by the CT interpretation of a "low" back wound in the autopsy photos -- would "move" the C7 entry wound several inches lower than it actually was.
(https://i.ibb.co/r4zdsvF/neck-transit-in-autopsy-photo-of-back.jpg)
They got to another law-enforcement "official" with the "low" back wound stuff: Mark Fuhrman (re: "A Simple Act of Murder").
Then again, maybe Agents Sibert & O'Neil actually used their own eyes the night of 11/22/63 regarding the BACK wound location?
Their actual report stated: "During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders".
"Below the shoulders". What does that mean? The shoulder line? The shoulder muscle mass? T6 level? Below the shoulder blade?
Humes had photographed and described the "back wound" as at the base of the back of the neck. C7 level.
The autopsy report concluded the bullet that entered the back then exited through the throat wound as seen in the photograph at autopsy: the base of the front of the neck. T1 level.
Their actual report stated: "During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders".
"Below the shoulders". What does that mean? The shoulder line? The shoulder muscle mass? T6 level? Below the shoulder blade?
Humes had photographed and described the "back wound" as at the base of the back of the neck. C7 level.
The autopsy report concluded the bullet that entered the back then exited through the throat wound as seen in the photograph at autopsy: the base of the front of the neck. T1 level.
Which "autopsy report" are you referencing? Would that be the "autopsy report" that Dr. Humes burned in his fireplace?
Is that the one that was covered in blood that Humes said he destroyed so it wouldn't get into the hands of 'ghouls'?
As I said before, JT got it right in his 60's book. It makes absolutely no sense that the shots were fired earlier.
There was the autopsy report and the supplemental autopsy report. Neither of the two were destroyed. There was never any other autopsy report on forensic pathological examination of the body of Kennedy.
As I said before, JT got it right in his 60's book. It makes absolutely no sense that the shots were fired earlier. The Towner film shows no startled looks and swiveling heads and that's pretty far down into the procession. Even the other photos further down but before the first shots show everything is normal. Kennedy's swift turn to the right and a wave is nothing more than that - the women over there yelled for him and he looked that way and waved. You can see this not only in the Z film but in that other photo that shows his head from the back looking over at them (I'm sorry I cannot remember who took the photo).
I, too, call it as I see it. I know people want to try to make things all scientific or go by 100 different witness statements to compare and contrast to somehow try to prove that there were shots up earlier. Science is not always going to get you where you want to go though.
I made a video about this a while back.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxa3NqTEpScWNQZnc/view
Again, calling it as I see it. Like the two final shots spaced very close together (head shots) I believe there were other closely spaced shots for the throat and back. Remember - there is NO exit for the back shot but it did happen. The head bob for me is when this happens in the above video a split second after the throat shot hits.
It makes no sense for conspirators to go through all of this trouble to blame a patsy and set up a staged scene on the 6th floor and then allow their shooters to start firing early. They'd have to be the greatest - and then dumbest - conspirators of all time.
There's a movie on TMC called Executive Action.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070046/
As seen in this movie, which was made in 1973 and stars Burt Lancaster and Grandpa Walton, it's a pretty good movie that covers a lot of conspiracy ground. Amazingly, it didn't create the groundswell that Stone's movie did 20 years later. It should have though because unlike Stone's Mister X plot, this one covers what the vast majority of folks think really happened as well as the logistics.
But back to this 6-second thing - there's a scene in the movie where there's a guy on a walkie-talkie giving commands on when to shoot. This, too, is why I don't believe that the shooters would have just started firing way up earlier. It makes no logical sense.
Indeed. He burnt some documents, his original notes, but not the report, I understand.
You need take a look at the Humes ARRB Testimony. These guys are smart. They burn/destroy stuff, and ONLY the person doing the burning/destroying Specifically Knows for a Fact what they have burnt/destroyed. Did they burn/destroy a "Report", or was it a "Draft" of the Report? Or was it a "2nd Draft" of the Final Report? This also means when these Individuals are giving Testimony/being Q/A'd, this Individual can have 1 Document in mind while the questioner is actually referencing something all together different. Obfuscation being the goal. If I have learned 1 thing from this case, it's that these guys Destroy Nothing. They actually Document Everything In Triplicate for possible future use.
ONLY the person doing the burning/destroying Specifically Knows for a Fact what they have burnt/destroyed.
Good point!..... I've often wondered if FBI agent James Hosty really did destroy the "Oswald Note"..... At the time that Hosty allegedly destroyed the note he was in deep stuff with Hoover. Hosty would have known that the note might be very valuable as evidence to be used in keeping him out of prison if Hoover decided to throw him under the bus.
Yeah, and do Not forget the recently Discovered "Hosty Notes" inside the National Archives. Whether it be an individual Govt employee protecting him/herself or the U.S. Govt itself, they Destroy Nothing. Bethesda had recently been remodeled/retooled when JFK was assassinated. At that time, Bethesda had the most advanced audio/video capabilities available. Autopsies and Operations there at Bethesda were routinely being taped/televised to assorted Hospitals across this country. To think Pitzer would Not be filming the JFK Autopsy with these advanced audio/video tools at his fingertips is ludicrous.
There was the autopsy report and the supplemental autopsy report. Neither of the two were destroyed. There was never any other autopsy report on forensic pathological examination of the body of Kennedy.
Should be renamed 10 Seconds in Dallas.
Why?because that's roughly how much time elapsed from first shot to last
because that's roughly how much time elapsed from first shot to last
HOW DID YOU DETERMINE THAT? As I recall most witnesses said the duration of the shots was about five seconds......The dicta phone record should be an accurate way to know .....
HOW DID YOU DETERMINE THAT? As I recall most witnesses said the duration of the shots was about five seconds......The dicta phone record should be an accurate way to know .....
The first shot occurred before Zap started filming. Connally's left-to-right headsnap alone tells us that, and it takes a few seconds to react to a loud noise. Do you seriously think Oswald only took six seconds to fire off three shots and reacquire his moving target two times?
The first shot occurred before Zap started filming. Connally's left-to-right headsnap alone tells us that, and it takes a few seconds to react to a loud noise. Do you seriously think Oswald only took six seconds to fire off three shots and reacquire his moving target two times?
The first shot occurred before Zap started filming. Connally's left-to-right headsnap alone tells us that, and it takes a few seconds to react to a loud noise. Do you seriously think Oswald only took six seconds to fire off three shots and reacquire his moving target two times?
Do you seriously think Oswald only took six seconds to fire off three shots and reacquire his moving target two times?
Congratulations ..... for displaying your intelligence and common sense that nobody could have fired that cranky old carcano accurately in six seconds....
I seriously think that Lee didn't fire a single shot......nor did anybody else fire from that SE corner window...and the carcano was not fired that day.
Give a Marine sharpshooter 9 or 10 seconds and have the target slow down dramatically before the last shot. Something tells me the success rate will skyrocket.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Restraint-Strait-Straight-Jacket-Black-2XL/140353152042?hash=item20adb3242a:g:aAgAAOSwWy1c6SRi
Yeah, I can see why Sibert and O'Neill -- under the influence of CT kooks espousing theories and going by the CT interpretation of a "low" back wound in the autopsy photos -- would "move" the C7 entry wound several inches lower than it actually was.
They got to another law-enforcement "official" with the "low" back wound stuff: Mark Fuhrman (re: "A Simple Act of Murder").
Why do you suppose your “CT kooks” are so influential?
We have the autopsy face sheet that was created by Commander Boswell DURING the autopsy which clearly shows the back wound as being about six inches below the nape of JFK's neck.
We have the autopsy face sheet that was created by Commander Boswell DURING the autopsy which clearly shows the back wound as being about six inches below the nape of JFK's neck.
The Face Sheet corresponds with the JFK Autopsy Photos. Short of standing JFK on his head inside the Limo, there is NO WAY a Downward fired shot Striking the BACK, then somehoe Exits the throat at a level Above the tie knot. This line of thought is completely Looney Tunes.
The Face Sheet corresponds with the JFK Autopsy Photos. Short of standing JFK on his head inside the Limo, there is NO WAY a Downward fired shot Striking the BACK, then somehoe Exits the throat at a level Above the tie knot. This line of thought is completely Looney Tunes.
Give a Marine sharpshooter 9 or 10 seconds and have the target slow down dramatically before the last shot.Anyone who knows anything about the Marine Corps knows that every Marine must qualify as a rifleman.
Mr. LIEBELER - You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing...Usually, a trainee will shoot well with a bench rest position and a desire to shoot well.
... NCO, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range ....
But Boswell himself thought the face sheet markings were approximate and the measurements were what was important.
(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sun.gif)
It's possible the "face sheet" misleading marking with regards to the "back" wound was what Rankin was referring to when he said the back wound was below the shoulder blade.
No. The "face sheet" placement of the "back" wound is much lower when compared to the autopsy photo. The photo shows the distance from the wound to the mastoid tip and the tip of the scapula to be equal. This was recorded (presumably accurately) as an equal distance and presented in the autopsy report.
"This wound is measured to be 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion
process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process."
Right Jerry.
These are the same autopsy doctors who missed the throat wound.
They also, if you're to believe the Clark Panel, Rockefeller Commission, HSCA and I think the Church Committee, placed the wound in the back of JFK's skull to low. 4 inches too low.
Although some believe it was changed by the Clark Panel only after critics pointed out a wound at EOP on the back of JFK's skull doesn't work for a LN shooter from the 6th floor SE corner TSBD.
Others believe the Clark Panel found a second wound track, meaning 2 separate bullets.
You can Not have it both ways. Either you want to be "dead on, balls accurate" with Everything or You do Not. If you are going to be "dead on, balls accurate", then we have a Huge Issue with the size of the bullet hole in JFK's skull.
We don't have the size of the bullet hole in JFK's skull. The pathologists never measured it. Or if they did , they never recorded it.
Better look again Magoo! Do you see that Mark drawn on the back of the head with a "15" to the side? Yeah, head wound and size.
Those are the dimensions of the scalp laceration, not of the hole in the skull.
Are You saying there is a laceration running down the Rear/Back of JFK's head? Remember, Humes used pieces of the skull that the SS hand carried into the autopsy room to reassemble the skull.
I'm saying that those dimensions on the Facesheet were of a lacerated wound in the scalp. From the autopsy report:
Situated in the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance is a lacerated wound measuring 15 x 6 mm.
So maybe they weren't competent enough to accurately locate the skull entry wound through palpation of an unshaven damaged skull. Maybe Humes mistook some unusual bump or fracture edge as the EOP.
Apples and oranges. The "back wound" was the least ambiguous. It was on the body's surface where there is almost no hair and it could be easily measured. Unlike the tracheotomy wound, the back wound was instantly recognizable as a bullet wound. The Clark Panel -- as did Humes et al in the Military Review -- were fully supportive of the back wound location as described in the autopsy report.
Was anybody (for example: Six Seconds in Dallas) prior to 1968/9 claiming the EOP wound didn't work for a LN shooter?
"So maybe they weren't competent enough to accurately locate the skull entry wound through palpation of an unshaven damaged skull. Maybe Humes mistook some unusual bump or fracture edge as the EOP."
According to the specialists who do know they (the autopsy doctors) weren't competent to do a legal medical autopsy.
They did hold JFK's skull in their hands with scalp refracted and the brain removed though.
They examined the outside and inside of skull at the bullet hole.
Slightly above and slightly to the right of external occipital protuberance (EOP).
They asked that photos be taken for the record.
Dr. Pierre Finck noted in an after action report in 1967 that those photos are no longer in the Archive.
Oddly enough almost immediately after that '67 review of the autopsy materials the Clark Panel said the wound in the back of JFK's head was in the cow lick not the EOP.
Right when the photos showing the location of the wound disappear it's location gets moved.
"Apples and oranges. The "back wound" was the least ambiguous. It was on the body's surface where there is almost no hair and it could be easily measured. Unlike the tracheotomy wound, the back wound was instantly recognizable as a bullet wound. The Clark Panel -- as did Humes et al in the Military Review -- were fully supportive of the back wound location as described in the autopsy report."
Strange thing the back wound. Jerry Ford, despite claiming he never saw the actual autopsy pictures, amended the final draft of the WCR. Changing the description of it's location from JFK's back to the back of his neck. Said it better described it's location. How does that work when you've never seen the wound?
The photo of the inside of JFK's right lung, that could have shown the direction and path of the neck wound, was also found to be missing in the '67 review of the autopsy materials.. Image that!
Here's something that I've never been able to understand..... At frame 313 of the Z film there is what appears to be an explosion on the side of JFK's head at the right temple, just forward of the ear. But there was no damage to JFK's head at that location other than a small bullet hole in the hairline that Clint Hill reported seeing, when he climbed aboard the Lincoln. There are colored photos that show a small red dot right at the spot that Clint Hill said that he saw a bullet hole.
I strongly suspect that the "explosion" on the side of JFK's head at Z 313 was added to the film to cover up that bullet hole.
NPIC Image Expert Dino Brugioni examined the Zapruder Film on 11/23/63. He said the film he examined that night was Not the same Zapruder film we have today. Brugioni Specifically referenced there being a difference in the Explosion of JFK's head he Examined on 11/23/63 and the Explosion depicted on the Current Zapruder Film.
Royell, That "explosion" on the side of JFK's head is fake! Hoover knew immediately that the bullet hole on the side of JFK's head would be an instant give away that the shot had came from behind the picket fence, so they altered the film .....
Image Expert Brugioni supports your Theory. Also, NONE of the Parkland Hospital Professionals that examined/treated JFK less than 30 minutes after the shooting EVER reported seeing that Large Hole/Flap in the right temple area. Parkland Dr's reported that external cardiac massage was applied to JFK and that blood/matter were falling out of the back of his head as each chest massage/compression was applied. Likewise, if there had been a Massive Wound/Hole in the (R) Temple Region, there also would have been blood/matter oozing out of that wound with each compression of the chest during external cardiac massage.
I'm not sure but I believe that the "explosion" on JFK's right temple would be seen in frames 314 and 315 ( 3/18 of a second ) I don't recall anybody ever making an issue out of the "explosion". I guess most folks just assumed that it was an actual explosion of JFK's head and it was too gruesome to discuss.
Here's something that I've never been able to understand..... At frame 313 of the Z film there is what appears to be an explosion on the side of JFK's head at the right temple, just forward of the ear. But there was no damage to JFK's head at that location other than a small bullet hole in the hairline that Clint Hill reported seeing, when he climbed aboard the Lincoln. There are colored photos that show a small red dot right at the spot that Clint Hill said that he saw a bullet hole.
I strongly suspect that the "explosion" on the side of JFK's head at Z 313 was added to the film to cover up that bullet hole.
I don't think the Z-film was altered other than possibly removing frames.
I think what happened at Z-313 is hard to understand because of all the misinformation from the autopsy and the WC.
If we knew where the shots were coming from and when I suspect Z_313 would make a lot more sense than it does.
IMO
Clint Hill has said many times that he saw a small bullet hole in the hair line just forward of JFK's right ear ( the exact spot where the "explosion" is shown at Z 313.)
If that explosion had occurred at that spot, Hill could not have see a small bullet hole there. (Because there would have been a huge hole there) Hill pointed to his right temple and said that he had seen a bullet hole there and the back of JFK's head was gone....
I don't think the Z-film was altered other than possibly removing frames.
I think what happened at Z-313 is hard to understand because of all the misinformation from the autopsy and the WC.
If we knew where the shots were coming from and when I suspect Z_313 would make a lot more sense than it does.
IMO
Possible "removed frames" does Not explain NO ONE at Parkland Hospital seeing the Massive Hole/Flap in the (R) Temple area. The ONLY Explanation for Not 1 Single Dr or 1 Single Nurse seeing the Massive Wound and/or blood trickling from it onto the hair of JFK is that the Wound DID NOT EXIST!
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on March 11, 2020, 11:38:43 PMMike Orr actually stated that a shot to the back of the head happened first....And I agree. If the autopsy photos are legit [showing a hole just a bit left of center] and the Zapruder image seems to show it forward/back in an blink.
If the autopsy photo was real then it would show a fist-sized gaping hole in the right occipital region of JFK's head. But we don't see that. Instead it shows what they want you to see, which is 1 shot from behind and no hole in the back of his head. I have no idea how they faked the photos, but it was easy enough to do back then. And before they were faking photos they were performing post-mortem surgery.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/postsurgery.jpg)
There may have been a simultaneous shot from behind but I doubt that it struck JFK's head without pushing it forward significantly, unless its forward momentum was counteracted by a shot from the front. However, IMO, there was too much backward motion for that to be the case.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/BackLeft.gif)
I count 2 near simultaneous shots at appox. Z-312, the first one from the direction of the overpass that entered the right side of JFK's hairline and blew a hole out of the back of his head. This sent his head violently backward.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/TrainOverpassTurkeyShoot.jpg)
Files recalls that his shot from the knoll happened a split second after the frontal shot and he claimed to have used a Fireball hand-rifle which shot frangible bullets. His shot caused the right temple to blowout when the bullet exploded in JFK's head.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/JFK_temple_blowout2.jpg)QuoteConsensus was that the driver did hit the brakes...but I would have too if I thought I was driving into an ambush.
No you wouldn't. At least 2 shots had been fired and you knew you were already under attack. Nobody in their right mind would slow the limo to a near stop, turn to look back at JFK and watch him get his head blown off and only then decide to skedaddle outta Dodge. The Turkey Shoot Point was precisely where Greer slowed the limo down to. It was designed to be orthogonal to Files' position at the knoll. There was even a painted marking on the curb across Elm at the exact TSP, which Greer coincidentally nearly stopped at. Greer must have skimmed over the SS manual re what to do when the POTUS is under attack.QuoteI also think Umbrella Man and the "Cuban" next to him were signal guys and would like to what Files said about them [if anything]...Not that I completely believe Files either.
Umbrella man and Co. were definitely signalling that JFK was still alive and the Turkey Shoot was on. And sure Files could be BSing, but he seems to know some interesting details about the shooting. Maybe he's stolen the real shooter's story, who knows? But he is by far the best candidate for the knoll shooter, if you believe there was one.
His skull was completely shattered. It's estimated 1/3 was blown away. In some places the scalp was intact with pieces of the skull adhering. I would imagine what we see in the few seconds after Z-313 is completely different than what arrived at Parkland. I don't think those differences are sinister. IMO
A simple matter of a "Bullet Right Through the Brain".
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/kilduff.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/groden.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/jfktemple.jpg)
Charlie.....I'm having trouble playing the video ..... It stops at various points and won't restart.... I'd really like to see the entire video..... Is anybody else experiencing problems?Oh...that's OK Walt. Just draw in what happened---That's what everybody else around here is doing.
Possible "removed frames" does Not explain NO ONE at Parkland Hospital seeing the Massive Hole/Flap in the (R) Temple area. The ONLY Explanation for Not 1 Single Dr or 1 Single Nurse seeing the Massive Wound and/or blood trickling from it onto the hair of JFK is that the Wound DID NOT EXIST!
From the thread: What if James Files shot JFK, like he said?
You don't have to buy into Files being the grassy knoll shooter, but the "right temple blowout" is pertinent to this thread.
If the autopsy photo was real then it would show a fist-sized gaping hole in the right occipital region of JFK's head. But we don't see that. Instead it shows what they want you to see, which is 1 shot from behind and no hole in the back of his head. I have no idea how they faked the photos, but it was easy enough to do back then. And before they were faking photos they were performing post-mortem surgery.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/postsurgery.jpg)
There may have been a simultaneous shot from behind but I doubt that it struck JFK's head without pushing it forward significantly, unless its forward momentum was counteracted by a shot from the front. However, IMO, there was too much backward motion for that to be the case.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/BackLeft.gif)
I count 2 near simultaneous shots at appox. Z-312, the first one from the direction of the overpass that entered the right side of JFK's hairline and blew a hole out of the back of his head. This sent his head violently backward.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/TrainOverpassTurkeyShoot.jpg)
Files recalls that his shot from the knoll happened a split second after the frontal shot and he claimed to have used a Fireball hand-rifle which shot frangible bullets. His shot caused the right temple to blowout when the bullet exploded in JFK's head.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/JFK_temple_blowout2.jpg)
No you wouldn't. At least 2 shots had been fired and you knew you were already under attack. Nobody in their right mind would slow the limo to a near stop, turn to look back at JFK and watch him get his head blown off and only then decide to skedaddle outta Dodge. The Turkey Shoot Point was precisely where Greer slowed the limo down to. It was designed to be orthogonal to Files' position at the knoll. There was even a painted marking on the curb across Elm at the exact TSP, which Greer coincidentally nearly stopped at. Greer must have skimmed over the SS manual re what to do when the POTUS is under attack.
Umbrella man and Co. were definitely signalling that JFK was still alive and the Turkey Shoot was on. And sure Files could be BSing, but he seems to know some interesting details about the shooting. Maybe he's stolen the real shooter's story, who knows? But he is by far the best candidate for the knoll shooter, if you believe there was one.
A couple of points I would like to make about the “explosion” of JFK’s head on the Z film being added or doctored; Mr and Mrs Connolly were splattered with brain matter and blood, and two, why would someone create an “explosion”, makes no sense.
Also a little on the last shot. It came from behind and was an explosive round, small diameter of little mass which does not cause something as heavy as a head to more when hit. Once inside what it hit it travels some distance and then explodes. The explosion exiting the front of the head causes the head to jerk backwards. I wasn't sure about this until I saw a video where they fired AR15 round into a watermelon and the watermelon had a small hole at entry and an explosion at the exit and the watermelon rolled backwards. Remember your physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
A couple of points I would like to make about the “explosion” of JFK’s head on the Z film being added or doctored; Mr and Mrs Connolly were splattered with brain matter and blood, and two, why would someone create an “explosion”, makes no sense.
Also a little on the last shot. It came from behind and was an explosive round, small diameter of little mass which does not cause something as heavy as a head to more when hit. Once inside what it hit it travels some distance and then explodes. The explosion exiting the front of the head causes the head to jerk backwards. I wasn't sure about this until I saw a video where they fired AR15 round into a watermelon and the watermelon had a small hole at entry and an explosion at the exit and the watermelon rolled backwards. Remember your physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Apples and oranges.
JFK's head wasn't a watermelon or equivalent. It was connected to his body and moving forward at approximately 11mph.
If you all haven't seen it yet, please watch "JFK- The Smoking Gun”. You have to rent it to see it but well worth the $3 to $4 to watch it. It explains the head shot with enough credible witnesses to convince you where the final shot came from. It’s a documentary by Colin McLaren and it’s about an hour and a half long. There are a lot of previews on youtube that are about a minute and a half long, don’t watch those and think you have seen it, they don’t tell the whole story.
None of the doctors at Parkland reported any major damage to the right side of JFK's head....They all said that there was a large hole at the rear of his head....And Clint Hill said that he saw a small bullet hole forward of JFK's right ear right in the hair line. If the explosion that is seen at Z313 actually happened the damage would have been on the right side of JFK's head and Hill couldn't have seen a small bullet hole there.
| (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z312position.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z313.jpg) |
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z312position.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z313.jpg)
"When I got to the presidential vehicle, just as I approached it, a third shot rang out,
hitting the president in the head, just above the right ear and left a hole about the
size of my palm."
-- Clint hill
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z312position.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z313.jpg)
"When I got to the presidential vehicle, just as I approached it, a third shot rang out,
hitting the president in the head, just above the right ear and left a hole about the
size of my palm."
-- Clint hill
I looks like no one wants to cough up the $3-$4 to watch JFK - The Smoking Gun so I am going to ruin it for you. What this documentary is about is how the third shot did not come from the TSBD or the grassy knoll but from an AR15 in the car behind the president’s limo. A secret service agent had picked up the gun, stood up on the back seat, the car accelerated (or decelerated), he lost his balance and he accidentally squeezed off a round and that round hit JFK in the back of the head. Now you can understand why the cover up.
A gun expert Howard Donohue, and the only person that could get off 3 rounds in the 6.2 seconds from the carcano rifle, researched and found out several interesting things. First; the hole in the back of Kennedy’s measured 6mm in diameter, an AR15 (M16) round is 5.56 mm. The Carcano is a .308 which is 7.62 mm. A bullet hole in the head will be slightly larger than the actual bullet. Second, many people smelled gun smoke in the motorcade, half of them being SS agents. Third, Donohue lined up the head, the entrance hole in the back with the right temple “explosion” and it lines up perfectly with the shot coming from jfk’s left rear at a low angle. Forth, Agents in and around the following car remember seeing an agent with an AR15 in his hand and another agent thinks that he had fired the gun.
The documentary is based on this information from the book called Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. The book is about Donohue’s findings.
I looks like no one wants to cough up the $3-$4 to watch JFK - The Smoking Gun so I am going to ruin it for you. What this documentary is about is how the third shot did not come from the TSBD or the grassy knoll but from an AR15 in the car behind the president’s limo. A secret service agent had picked up the gun, stood up on the back seat, the car accelerated (or decelerated), he lost his balance and he accidentally squeezed off a round and that round hit JFK in the back of the head. Now you can understand why the cover up.
A gun expert Howard Donohue, and the only person that could get off 3 rounds in the 6.2 seconds from the carcano rifle, researched and found out several interesting things. First; the hole in the back of Kennedy’s measured 6mm in diameter, an AR15 (M16) round is 5.56 mm. The Carcano is a .308 which is 7.62 mm. A bullet hole in the head will be slightly larger than the actual bullet. Second, many people smelled gun smoke in the motorcade, half of them being SS agents. Third, Donohue lined up the head, the entrance hole in the back with the right temple “explosion” and it lines up perfectly with the shot coming from jfk’s left rear at a low angle. Forth, Agents in and around the following car remember seeing an agent with an AR15 in his hand and another agent thinks that he had fired the gun.
The documentary is based on this information from the book called Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. The book is about Donohue’s findings.
DPD Officer Earle Brown standing on the overpass across the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp also gave WC Testimony that he smelled gun powder. His great distance from Dealey Plaza/TSBD and his smelling of gun powder does give credibility to their being a "Smoking"/recently discharged weapon inside the JFK Motorcade as it traveled toward/under that overpass he was standing atop. Also, there is one shot that acted Unlike every other shot fired on 11/22/63. That would be the Kill Shot. The ONLY Automatic Weapon KNOWN to be inside Dealey Plaza that could possible account for that shot would be the AR-15 that SA Hickey was wielding while standing Up-Right in the back seat of the Queen Mary. And let's not forget that SA Hickey was a "fill-in" that day. He normally did maintenance on the motorcade vehicles. The Hickey discharging of the AR-15 is plausible in many ways and worthy of serious consideration.
Two minutes later wasn't it.
You can say it's bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns but facts are facts. The witnesses are there and they are credible witnesses. Remember how the motorcade was lined up, most important people first. SS Agents smelled gunsmoke, behind the SS Agents limo was Congressman Ralph W. Yarborough, a WWII veteran who said he smelled gunsmoke and me being a Viet Nam vet I can tell you I know what gunsmoke smells like.
The government would not back the theory, they covered it up. Can you image the outrage there would be if the governmental department charged with protecting the President was responsible for killing him. Watch the documentary "JFK-The Smoking Gun", it will convince you I'm sure.
The SS is an extremely tight knit outfit. When the Warren Commission Q/A'd Chief Rowley, he did everything he could to protect the SS Agents that were drinking hootch at that "beatnik joint" the night before the Assassination. Clint Hill being one of the Agents downing the "Who-Hit-John".
Clint Hill was NOT one of the SS agents at the "beatnik joint" ..... He was not assigned to the Dallas security detail and JFK ordered him from Washington to be Jackie's body guard in Dallas. I believe Hill arrived in Dallas early Friday morning.....(6:00 am?)
If You are going to claim it took the hauling arse JFK Limo 2 Minutes to reach the overpass that stretched across the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp, are You also then claiming the JFK Limo STOPPED?
Once again, the visual aid that is provided defeats the point of the poster. The visual aid above in No Way displays a shot "HITTING the president in the head, JUST ABOVE the Right Ear..........." The visual aid displays a bullet striking the BACK of the Head and then traveling across the TOP Of the Head.
I had made up this list of witnesses awhile back so seeing as we are discussing smelling gunsmoke
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
• Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
• Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
• Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder” WC Vol VII, pg 486
• Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”
• Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
• Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
• Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
• One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin
Witnesses to Hickey holding and possibly firing a “rifle”:
• Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabel. see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
• Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
• Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that he had fired it”.
• Sam Holland, a witness, is standing on top of the underpass as the motorcade is going under him. “After the first shot, the Secret Service agent raised up with a machine gun and dropped back down into the seat. WC Vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 480
• Roy Kellerman testified there was an AR15 in the motorcade.
• Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade. vol XXIV, ex 2003, pg 200
• A police officer on the over pass as the motorcade passing under saw an agent swinging around the gun.
• Margaret Chisolm WC vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 472 saw agents stand up and sit back down.
• Jean Hill – Saw JFK grab his chest and fall forward and she thinks she saw men in plain clothes shooting back. WC Vol XXIV, Ex 2003, pg 212
• Ralph Yarborough saw a SS Agent pull out a rifle. WC Vol VII, pg 439
If You are going to claim it took the hauling arse JFK Limo 2 Minutes to reach the overpass that stretched across the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp, are You also then claiming the JFK Limo STOPPED?Yes, Officer Brown said that the motorcade stopped for at least 30 sec on the onramp.