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Check out 1 hour and 34 minutes in for the bombshell:
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GD--
Thanks for posting.
After 60+years in the JFKA snipe-hunt, some CT'ers are grasping at straws. The Prayer Man dementia is just embarrassing.
A great suspect for participating in the JFKA is LHO, the only suspect known beyond reasonable doubt to be in Dealey Plaza on 11/22.
LHO was invisible when shots rang out. Not one witness placed LHO anywhere.
The HSCA confirmed LHO's rifle was found in the TSBD6, the BYP's are real.
LHO evidently participated in taking a pot-shot at General Walker, showing an inclination to shoot at major public figures.
Did LHO have confederates on 11.22? I think he did. Likely a very small plot, perhaps just three people including LHO.
Who? I don't know.
G2 assets? Angry Alpha 66'ers?
In September, Castro warned the Kennedy brothers assassination attempts could go both ways.
Longshot: Madame Nhu vowed revenge for the Kennedy-backed assassinations of her husband and brother-in-law, the Diems of SV.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
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GD--
Thanks for posting.
After 60+years in the JFKA snipe-hunt, some CT'ers are grasping at straws. The Prayer Man dementia is just embarrassing.
A great suspect for participating in the JFKA is LHO, the only suspect known beyond reasonable doubt to be in Dealey Plaza on 11/22.
LHO was invisible when shots rang out. Not one witness placed LHO anywhere.
The HSCA confirmed LHO's rifle was found in the TSBD6, the BYP's are real.
LHO evidently participated in taking a pot-shot at General Walker, showing an inclination to shoot at major public figures.
Did LHO have confederates on 11.22? I think he did. Likely a very small plot, perhaps just three people including LHO.
Who? I don't know.
G2 assets? Angry Alpha 66'ers?
In September, Castro warned the Kennedy brothers assassination attempts could go both ways.
Longshot: Madame Nhu vowed revenge for the Kennedy-backed assassinations of her husband and brother-in-law, the Diems of SV.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
Don't forget the flash-bang from the bushes and Connally's "contortionist-like wrist."
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Check out 1 hour and 34 minutes in for the bombshell:
[...]
Why would anyone believe what Jefferson "Yuri Nosenko Was A True Defector Because He Said The KGB Had Nothing To Do With Oswald In The USSR!!!" Morley says?
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We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21.jpg)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pm1.gif)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/w21comp.jpg)
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We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21.jpg)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pm1.gif)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/w21comp.jpg)
Thanks. Hadn't seen a close up of that picture before.
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Nice to see my old Darnell GIF being put to good use. I did, however, mess up with the edges, so I created this slightly tighter cropped version.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPTkpGKm/darnell-480px.gif)
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Lots to unpack here. 1) That sure looks like a woman in the doorway and not Oswald or any other man. 2) Robert Groden should be arrested if he did in fact steal original evidentiary materials from the House Select Committee, as sure seems to be the case. 3) Rep. Luna is a moron.
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We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21.jpg)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pm1.gif)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/w21comp.jpg)
Seriously? Where's the, "JFK Evidence Police" when you need them? I intentionally have waited 24hrs for these Don Quixote's to come charging outta the woodwork and challenge the above "evidence". These are the same people that climb my tree when I: (1) Cut down their worshiped Kamp, (2) Proved "That Ain't Haygood", and, (3) Proved " The car is not in the Wiegman Film". Where are they Now? They are now content to simply stand around with their thumb up their caboose. You know who you are!
I have never bought into the Prayer Man being Oswald stuff. Never! Never seen any evidence to validate that claim. Prayer Man could be anybody, male or female. But to try to disprove it was Oswald by submitting Willis 21? Really? Willis 21 was snapped around 30 minutes after the Kill Shot. And now you wanna compare a figure on Willis 21, to a figure from 30 Seconds after the Kill Shot? This is laughable. Yet, the "JFK Evidence Police" have suddenly disappeared? I guarantee you that if the name Storing was attached to this, we would being seeing WW 3. "Storing Derangement Syndrome" (SDS) is real.
I don't mind being held to a higher standard than anyone else around here. I am used to that. I feed off of that. It is why I have made the 2 biggest discoveries around here in years. (1)That Ain't Haygood, and (2) The car is NOT on the Wiegman Film. Groundbreaking! All I ask is that you also demand a modicum of "evidence" from others. Your failure to do so is reducing this place to "Face Book" status.
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And now you wanna compare a figure on Willis 21, to a figure from 30 Seconds after the Kill Shot?
So...Using your illogical logic, this genuine Oswald photographed at different times in this two photo composite, might or might not be the genuine Oswald?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3eviUM5pj_Gwubcr65OnQWQ19QIY2LiqGVg&s)
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So...Using your illogical logic, this genuine Oswald photographed at different times in this two photo composite, might or might not be the genuine Oswald?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3eviUM5pj_Gwubcr65OnQWQ19QIY2LiqGVg&s)
There is no mystery as to the Oswald ID on the 2 images you have posted. Other than with Ralphy. There is a total mystery shroud covering the ID of Prayer Man/Lady. You failed to mention that the images you posted were captured 30 minutes apart. I took the Kamp/Lovelady ID apart with images that were captured within seconds of each other. This is Not the case with what you posted. The time gap between your images should have been made clear to the audience.
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Was just reading a Kamp "Face Book" posting. Kamp is now trashing Groden. The jackals are turning on each other. Not pretty.
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There is a total mystery shroud covering the ID of Prayer Man/Lady. You failed to mention that the images you posted were captured 30 minutes apart. I took the Kamp/Lovelady ID apart with images that were captured within seconds of each other. This is Not the case with what you posted. The time gap between your images should have been made clear to the audience.
??? Pay attention, you missed my point.
There's no mystery concerning who it is not, it is not Oswald, that is all we need to know.
The identity of the Female which would be interesting to know is not important.
In the Wiegman Willis comparison, the time taken between photographs is not relevant or necessary to submit an opinion of the mystery person's Female gender
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??? Pay attention, you missed my point.
There's no mystery concerning who it is not, it is not Oswald, that is all we need to know.
The identity of the Female which would be interesting to know is not important.
In the Wiegman Willis comparison, the time taken between photographs is not relevant or necessary to submit an opinion of the mystery person's Female gender
You hit the nail on the head. As long was we know it is not Oswald, it doesn't matter who it is. The photo would only have significance if it was Oswald and it could be proven it was taken seconds, not minutes after the assassination. That would have huge ramifications if true but since it is not, it's nothing more than a mildly interesting photo.
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??? Pay attention, you missed my point.
There's no mystery concerning who it is not, it is not Oswald, that is all we need to know.
The identity of the Female which would be interesting to know is not important.
In the Wiegman Willis comparison, the time taken between photographs is not relevant or necessary to submit an opinion of the mystery person's Female gender
Your declaring there is "no mystery" does not make this so. There's plenty of males that look like Prayer Man. Plugging a male "look alike" into that same spot would Not prove that Prayer Man is a man either. Your "look alike" plug-in female is actual "proof" of nothing. I thought you were claiming the 2 images you posted were of the same female. Now THAT, would have been proof. Prayer Man has become Kamp's flag ship issue and until he waves the white flag, that issue will remain alive and kicking contrary to your declaration. We need to keep the "Proof Bar' high and not impose a double standard depending on which side of the issue the proffer is coming from.
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I thought you were claiming the 2 images you posted were of the same female. Now THAT, would have been proof.
That's what I suspect, It seems like a good bet to me.
The Headline words "The Man Who Destroyed The "Prayerman" Theory - MacRae Hits The Jackpot" springs to mind. :)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEijIgfGvtumzWoY3SEDJco58YucYfezj4meUwxtkOMPVlKquABXGFYZvRUbfFMHRJ7lfvVRwC8VB77OJi7V1Sjvin46-z9El_WL3ny874OiBoiN1byn2tAGyVfjkROSopxRHrpDFw-9YYcNW_X1qHeMmLNQM-nxxP2QaUuM8Q2UOsS3Ve-vfo0lKYC-CJc/s528/Composite-Photo-By-Duncan-MacRae.jpg)
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That's what I suspect, It seems like a good bet to me.
The Headline words "The Man Who Destroyed The "Prayerman" Theory - MacRae Hits The Jackpot" springs to mind. :)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEijIgfGvtumzWoY3SEDJco58YucYfezj4meUwxtkOMPVlKquABXGFYZvRUbfFMHRJ7lfvVRwC8VB77OJi7V1Sjvin46-z9El_WL3ny874OiBoiN1byn2tAGyVfjkROSopxRHrpDFw-9YYcNW_X1qHeMmLNQM-nxxP2QaUuM8Q2UOsS3Ve-vfo0lKYC-CJc/s528/Composite-Photo-By-Duncan-MacRae.jpg)
Thanks for confirming that you do believe that might be the same female.
Does your "MacRae" reference reflect back on Kamp? I believe that you follow him closer than I do. I like giving the JFK Images that Kamp posts a once over, but I also do the same with the JFK Image postings of "OneTrueFlag Here". Though both of these guys push JFK assassination ideas that are way out there.
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Does your "MacRae" reference reflect back on Kamp? I believe that you follow him closer than I do.
I don't follow Bart Kamp.
Willis + Darnell = Prayer Woman
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/PMCOMP.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/darnellwillis.jpg)
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Bart has done some great work but I don't believe Prayerman is LHO. It has always looked to me as a female holding a coffee cup.
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Bart has done some great work but I don't believe Prayerman is LHO. It has always looked to me as a female drinking from a coffee cup.
Close enough
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Close enough
Undoubtedly, in my mind. Thumb1:
Looks like she's wearing somnething like this, an opened Worker's Overall with Pants/Trousers, underneath
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/coatc.png)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/PMCOMP7.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/PMCOMP8.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/PMCOMP2.jpg)
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Personally, I believe if Oswald had been standing back there, Buell Frazier would have seen him. Frazier does not remember seeing him back there. Also, that landing was very shallow on 11/22/63. It has been changed since then and is deeper today. Back then, the shallowness of that landing would have put a recognizable figure like Oswald in Frazier's peripheral vision at the slightest (R) turn of his head. Frazier trained Oswald, drove him home weekly, etc. He would have remembered seeing Oswald, if even at a quick glance.
Going to Dealey Plaza today and thinking you are seeing it as it was on 11/22/63, is like viewing the movie "JFK" and thinking ALL of the film footage was shot on 11/22/63 film. You're being misled by both.
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As expected, Groden has given a full and frank explanation of the whole situation:
It turns out Groden told Jeff Morley where the original is, in a Long Island archive, but Morley never shared that info with us for some reason.
It seems Groden was unhappy that someone was allowed onto the Luna hearings claiming the Zapruder film was faked and Morley didn't like Groden making this point and viewed it as complaining. This is a genuine point by Groden that I think most JFKA researchers would support. Suggestions the Zapruder film might be faked should not be in the official record as it muddies the water in what is already a complex case.
Groden made a copy from the original Wiegman film at the Long Island archive and shared this in a 1990s dvd titled "The Assassination Films". The copy of the Wiegman film on there has the letters NFV at the bottom. Does anyone know what the letters NFV mean?
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NFV
Negative film version?
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I think it stands for New Frontier Video, a company created by Groden back in the day.
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I think it stands for New Frontier Video, a company created by Groden back in the day.
Thanks Thumb1:
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After watching the entire 47-minute video above, I find it really strange that we don't hear Bob Groden, at any point in the lengthy video, say a single word about the so-called "Prayer Man" figure in the TSBD doorway. Not a word. Bob only talks about the decades-old "Billy Lovelady / Doorway Man" controversy.
Based on the fact that Groden only brought up the topic of Lovelady as the man in the Depository doorway, I got the strong impression that Mr. Groden isn't even aware of the newer "Prayer Man" theory.
Is it possible that Bob actually thinks the reason that Jefferson Morley and others are so anxious to see the original versions of the Wiegman and Darnell films is to only focus on the Billy Lovelady figure in the films, rather than focus on the Prayer Man individual? Sure sounded that way to me in the above video interview. Very odd.
I'm also perplexed by this oddity that I noticed while watching the above video....
Why does Mr. Groden's DVD copy of his 1995 "Assassination Films" DVD display the Wiegman Film in a widescreen format? It was certainly not filmed in widescreen. It should be viewed in the proper 4x3 ratio, which is exactly how it is displayed on the version of Groden's DVD that I own. (The version I have was released by Delta Entertainment in 2003, but it has the exact same DVD menus and narration as Groden's original 1995 edition.)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj3ITEj0samEipxdaNTmKbrZwrmeuKlADzggdZpwUspkz8kR6v1IEyJ8RunCuRWERMuJy2K393Y3YJVkQ1NIxoGAd0vXqSl25fmMA67YQlg47xNkAJ-urHeAHs0EaEFvnMRWgIUN7LQEZ6Ttul7KmmYKroYnrGoIsdr-nTRA7SHFalldDJBvlC8oZozkbg/s428/Robert-Groden-DVD.jpg) (https://web.archive.org/web/20130805152145/https://www.amazon.com/review/R1FO0Z0L90V09Y)
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I'm also perplexed by this oddity that I noticed while watching the above video....
Why does Mr. Groden's DVD copy of his 1995 "Assassination Films" DVD display the Wiegman Film in a widescreen format? It was certainly not filmed in widescreen. It should be viewed in the proper 4x3 ratio, which is exactly how it is displayed on the version of Groden's DVD that I own. (The version I have was released by Delta Entertainment in 2003, but it has the exact same DVD menus and narration as Groden's original 1995 edition.)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj3ITEj0samEipxdaNTmKbrZwrmeuKlADzggdZpwUspkz8kR6v1IEyJ8RunCuRWERMuJy2K393Y3YJVkQ1NIxoGAd0vXqSl25fmMA67YQlg47xNkAJ-urHeAHs0EaEFvnMRWgIUN7LQEZ6Ttul7KmmYKroYnrGoIsdr-nTRA7SHFalldDJBvlC8oZozkbg/s428/Robert-Groden-DVD.jpg) (https://web.archive.org/web/20130805152145/https://www.amazon.com/review/R1FO0Z0L90V09Y)
Perhaps you just have a narrow TV 😅
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After watching the entire 47-minute video above, I find it really strange that we don't hear Bob Groden, at any point in the lengthy video, say a single word about the so-called "Prayer Man" figure in the TSBD doorway. Not a word. Bob only talks about the decades-old "Billy Lovelady / Doorway Man" controversy.
Based on the fact that Groden only brought up the topic of Lovelady as the man in the Depository doorway, I got the strong impression that Mr. Groden isn't even aware of the newer "Prayer Man" theory.
Is it possible that Bob actually thinks the reason that Jefferson Morley and others are so anxious to see the original versions of the Wiegman and Darnell films is to only focus on the Billy Lovelady figure in the films, rather than focus on the Prayer Man individual? Sure sounded that way to me in the above video interview. Very odd.
Groden would have seen the original Wiegman in the 1990s before the Prayerman theory was developed as far as I understand it. So Groden possibly never even looked for the Prayerman figure when he had the opportunity to do so.
Isn't Lovelady supposed to be walking down the elm street extension in the Wiegman/Darnell film? So no one is putting Lovelady at the doorway in the Wiegman film anyway.
This would mean that the only known living person to have viewed the original Wiegman film, Groden, quiet possibly never even looked at the figure in the doorway that later developed into the Prayerman theory.
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Groden would have seen the original Wiegman in the 1990s before the Prayerman theory was developed as far as I understand it. So Groden possibly never even looked for the Prayerman figure when he had the opportunity to do so.
Isn't Lovelady supposed to be walking down the elm street extension in the Wiegman/Darnell film? So no one is putting Lovelady at the doorway in the Wiegman film anyway.
This would mean that the only known living person to have viewed the original Wiegman film, Groden, quiet possibly never even looked at the figure in the doorway that later developed into the Prayerman theory.
Either that or he did look at the figure that would later become known as Prayerman and determined it was not Oswald and proceeded to mistake the figure as being Lovelady.
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Groden would have seen the original Wiegman in the 1990s before the Prayerman theory was developed as far as I understand it. So Groden possibly never even looked for the Prayerman figure when he had the opportunity to do so.
Isn't Lovelady supposed to be walking down the elm street extension in the Wiegman/Darnell film? So no one is putting Lovelady at the doorway in the Wiegman film anyway.
This would mean that the only known living person to have viewed the original Wiegman film, Groden, quiet possibly never even looked at the figure in the doorway that later developed into the Prayerman theory.
Either that or he did look at the figure that would later become known as Prayerman and determined it was not Oswald and proceeded to mistake the figure as being Lovelady.
I doubt very much that anyone looking at the Dave Wiegman film in the 1990s would (or even could) have determined that there was even a human being standing in the "Prayer Man" position on the top TSBD step. And that's because the Wiegman copy presented by Mr. Groden on his 1995 DVD (which I just watched again this evening) is just too dark and shadowy in the area of the Prayer Man figure for any definitive conclusions to be made. It's much worse than Jimmy Darnell's film, that's for sure.
The Wiegman print presented on Groden's '95 DVD just barely allows us to tell that a person is even there in the shadowy doorway, let alone permitting any kind of positive identification. It's impossible to even identify the gender of the person. The same can be said, of course, for the Darnell Film as well. The gender of the Prayer Man figure in the Darnell copies we've got now cannot be definitely established either.
And even going on the assumption that the "camera original" of Wiegman's film (which Groden says he has stored in Long Island) is of better quality and can be enhanced and tweaked to some extent, I doubt very much that enough detail and clarity can be extracted from the shadowy indistinctness that exists in the doorway.
BTW, the copy of the Wiegman Film that I saved to my computer several years ago (linked below) is derived from Robert Groden's 1995 DVD, but this copy isn't as good as the version I watched on my DVD copy tonight. This copy below doesn't even permit us to see any kind of human figure in the Prayer Man spot at all. That area of the doorway contains nothing but pitch-blackness....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eg9JymNcnfU/XSk3Yq5EtqI/AAAAAAABSPM/OYMYdF5Pn_EgwK9HiiSWGZiJEmd02d6uACLcBGAs/s1600/Play-Video-Logo.png) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIRG5FNlpKUjJvRnc/view)
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Video: Does Frazier's interviewed Head turn, towards his right side, indicate that Prayer Person is Sarah Stanton?
"We looked at one another"
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Frazierpm.jpg)
"We looked at one another"
??? But Here ???
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I doubt very much that anyone looking at the Dave Wiegman film in the 1990s would (or even could) have determined that there was even a human being standing in the "Prayer Man" position on the top TSBD step. And that's because the Wiegman copy presented by Mr. Groden on his 1995 DVD (which I just watched again this evening) is just too dark and shadowy in the area of the Prayer Man figure for any definitive conclusions to be made. It's much worse than Jimmy Darnell's film, that's for sure.
The Wiegman print presented on Groden's '95 DVD just barely allows us to tell that a person is even there in the shadowy doorway, let alone permitting any kind of positive identification. It's impossible to even identify the gender of the person. The same can be said, of course, for the Darnell Film as well. The gender of the Prayer Man figure in the Darnell copies we've got now cannot be definitely established either.
And even going on the assumption that the "camera original" of Wiegman's film (which Groden says he has stored in Long Island) is of better quality and can be enhanced and tweaked to some extent, I doubt very much that enough detail and clarity can be extracted from the shadowy indistinctness that exists in the doorway.
BTW, the copy of the Wiegman Film that I saved to my computer several years ago (linked below) is derived from Robert Groden's 1995 DVD, but this copy isn't as good as the version I watched on my DVD copy tonight. This copy below doesn't even permit us to see any kind of human figure in the Prayer Man spot at all. That area of the doorway contains nothing but pitch-blackness....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eg9JymNcnfU/XSk3Yq5EtqI/AAAAAAABSPM/OYMYdF5Pn_EgwK9HiiSWGZiJEmd02d6uACLcBGAs/s1600/Play-Video-Logo.png) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIRG5FNlpKUjJvRnc/view)
That "interview" was no different than Groden sitting at his card table inside Dealey Plaza on weekends. Groden was sitting there to Pitch/Sell his very old books and DVD's. His JFK Assassination Film Library have always been sub-substandard dating back to his "JFK Assassination Files". He got away with that schlock back then due to it being pre-internet. People were extremely limited as to where they could go to buy assassination film copies. And that "Sharp" TV that he is "examining" JFK Assassination Films need go back on the shelf of the "Gemco" that he bought it from a long time ago. With the focus being on the TSBD steps/doorway, I found it strange that there was absolutely no mention of the Darnell Film during this interview.
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Baylor University Weigman scan.
(https://jfkassassinationforum.com/Scan.jpeg)
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That "interview" was no different than Groden sitting at his card table inside Dealey Plaza on weekends. Groden was sitting there to Pitch/Sell his very old books and DVD's. His JFK Assassination Film Library have always been sub-substandard dating back to his "JFK Assassination Files". He got away with that schlock back then due to it being pre-internet. People were extremely limited as to where they could go to buy assassination film copies. And that "Sharp" TV that he is "examining" JFK Assassination Films need go back on the shelf of the "Gemco" that he bought it from a long time ago. With the focus being on the TSBD steps/doorway, I found it strange that there was absolutely no mention of the Darnell Film during this interview.
Groden was simply trying to clear things up for people. He doesn't sell stuff anymore as he's retired from having a table at Dealey Plaza. Don't think you can even buy stuff off him anymore.
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Baylor University Weigman scan.
(https://jfkassassinationforum.com/Scan.jpeg)
Thanks, Robin. That Baylor scan is just about identical to Groden's 1995 DVD version, with the "Prayer Man" area displaying pretty much total darkness.
But I'll certainly have to give credit to whoever it was who enhanced and "lightened up" the doorway in the Wiegman copy seen below, because that version is by far the best I've seen when it comes to at least being able to see that there is a person standing in the PM location on the steps:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjvh8guE1CqWXIV6KMR4b5miLgiRfC76GTGWM2zWKCmU8zFG-aaOfmWUoRVz8hxj0MpT3ka81TunuC7WZ0VyHQC9s4pCLjXKjAlYNpMJucmQ7AlPgt6VNQexIacMF7Jbsei0yUqXivrCrcosQFhMZ8vSJ_XBxOYpRQLC6AHpGuNy4dp97NJMwrAhY3Cx8Q/s530/Wiegman-Film-Frame-HQ.png)
And to illustrate how the various copies can vary in quality, here's what my crappy copy of the Wiegman film shows. (You wouldn't even know that the Prayer Man person was there at all.) ....
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMBpS5O7qJ0rS3AmXXT3Y3-NZluryFslenGHisYDaICsZzIZGsx3QG8XZDCEI1xQYtACCpg8PMgyuJWhQTB3t3dQ_GwyuGHBKy9MnIQ1ibmuq_uZTQroFQq-aVKUCfKdswSy5phw7XgAKasljBOEluXD9wHZXuxXRxS2zF7hBFIrWtY1ZKG8F42ItPYL0/s530/Wiegman-Film-Frame-DVP-Copy.png)
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Your welcome David.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/long.jpeg)
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I understand the Groden/ Wiegman Film connection, but why are we even putzing around with the possible images of "Prayer Man" on the Wiegman Film? The Darnell Film has far better images of "Prayer Man" tucked back inside that corner of the TSBD Landing. The Sixth Floor Museum release of roughly the 1st :40 seconds of the Darnell film easily shows this "prayer man" figure even when viewed on a routine computer monitor.
And when are we going to get the release of the last 1/2 of the Darnell Film? It's been over a year since the release of the 1st half of the film. Dollars To Donuts the final half of the Darnell Film will conclusively show, "That Ain't Haygood," roaming around well back inside the railroad yard. A at minimum, the last 1/2 of that film should us this Bogus Motorcycle Cop is Not choosing to carry an alleged "glove" with him from hell to high water. Is this why the final 1/2 of the Darnell film remains in limbo?
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Weigman GIF
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YB2y85H/Weigman-GIF.gif)
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Darnell GIF
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtjB7Vxk/DARNELL2.gif)
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ROBIN - As usual, you proffer beautiful work. I only wish our "Photo Gallery" was at the level of when you were a regular around here. Please stop by here more often. Your participation immediately raises the bar.
Respectfully,
Royell Storing
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ROBIN - As usual, you proffer beautiful work. I only wish our "Photo Gallery" was at the level of when you were a regular around here. Please stop by here more often. Your participation immediately raises the bar.
Respectfully,
Royell Storing
Thanks Royell.
I appreciate the comments.
Robin.
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Groden was simply trying to clear things up for people. He doesn't sell stuff anymore as he's retired from having a table at Dealey Plaza. Don't think you can even buy stuff off him anymore.
Gerry, you keep defending Groden and calling him "honest" and such.. are you serious with that? This guy ran a fake autopsy photo in one of his books! He stole evidence from a government committee, by his own admission! I don't believe a word he says about this stuff.
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Gerry, you keep defending Groden and calling him "honest" and such.. are you serious with that? This guy ran a fake autopsy photo in one of his books! He stole evidence from a government committee, by his own admission! I don't believe a word he says about this stuff.
And you wantta rag other people about being Conspiracy Nuts? What role do you think that Groden had in the "Pentagon Papers" caper?
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And you wantta rag other people about being Conspiracy Nuts? What role do you think that Groden had in the "Pentagon Papers" caper?
No clue what you're talking about, as nobody said a word about the Pentagon Papers in this thread. Maybe try your Jack in the Box analogies again?
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Gerry, you keep defending Groden and calling him "honest" and such.. are you serious with that? This guy ran a fake autopsy photo in one of his books!
Book and page number?
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No clue what you're talking about, as nobody said a word about the Pentagon Papers in this thread. Maybe try your Jack in the Box analogies again?
Of course you don't. You wantta blow off about JFK Assassination researchers vs your having Zero historical perspective. I don't wanta punch down here. Have a good day.
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Book and page number?
It's in Absolute Proof, which I no longer own, so unfortunately I can't tell you the page number. But it sounds like you are aware of the photo in question, which was apparently taken of a prop "head" from the JFK movie. I am 100% certain Groden did not in any way specify that this image was NOT of President Kennedy and instead passed it off as if it were a legitimate "unreleased" autopsy photo.
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It's in Absolute Proof, which I no longer own, so unfortunately I can't tell you the page number. But it sounds like you are aware of the photo in question, which was apparently taken of a prop "head" from the JFK movie. I am 100% certain Groden did not in any way specify that this image was NOT of President Kennedy and instead passed it off as if it were a legitimate "unreleased" autopsy photo.
I can attest to Groden being connected to a Bogus Autopsy photo. Groden had it among other photos at his card table 1 day when I was at Dealey Plaza. I asked as to where the photo came from, and did Not get a direct answer. This told me the photo was not legit. I then gained a steady shadow as I checked out several Line Of Sight (LOS) there inside the Plaza after that. Nothing happened or was said, but I was uncomfortable.
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It's in Absolute Proof, which I no longer own, so unfortunately I can't tell you the page number. But it sounds like you are aware of the photo in question, which was apparently taken of a prop "head" from the JFK movie. I am 100% certain Groden did not in any way specify that this image was NOT of President Kennedy and instead passed it off as if it were a legitimate "unreleased" autopsy photo.
I have that book. I was always able to tell which photos were the genuine autopsy photos and which were JFK movie shots. if i remember correctly, one was a recreation effort to show what the back of the head blow out wound might have looked like by superimposing the mystery photo over the back fo the head photo. I always knew what i was looking at. I never felt like i was being duped into thinking something was a genuine autopsy photo when it wasn't. Perhaps thats because i am familar with what the autopsy photos look like.
Maybe some people were not able to tell the difference but the difference was always clear to me which is why i dont see what all the fuss is about.
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"Absolute Proof" page 177, bottom (L). There is a Dark B/W photo of JFK laying naked, flat on his back. We see JFK's (L) side from just above the knee to the top of his head. In the background, there is a sink, with a couple of dispensers of some kind, and maybe an electrical outlet on the wall above the sink. This is the same photo that I saw at Groden's table inside Dealey Plaza.
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(https://i.ibb.co/JWmtQ5LG/Groden2.jpg)
This is the image all the talk is about. Its obvious from the top image that he is recreating for the reader what the blow out wound would look like. Hes doing the same in the black and white photo as he says "This is what all the frames look like". It seems to me to be just clumsy writing.
It would have been better had be actually printed the poor quality images and let us see for ourselves how poor they are rather than doing a mock up of a "clear" version of what the image shows. But i'm guessing he never made a copy of those images due to the poor quality which is why hes now doing a mock up of what the images show.
I at no stage ever thought that was a real image.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Xq37nfH/Groden.jpg)
This is the image all the talk is about. Its obvious from the top image that he is recreating for the reader what the blow out wound would look like as. Hes doing the same in the black and white photo as he says "This is what all the frames look like". It seems to me to be just clumsy writing. It would have been better had be actually printed the poor quality images and let us see for ourselves how poor they are rather than doing a mock up of a "clear" version of what the image shows.
I at no stage ever thought that was a real image.
I am not sure why you are trying to honey coat this. Groden claims that bottom photo was from a, "roll of 120 format black and white negative film, which had been listed as "blank", was Not blank at all". Groden claims he discovered this roll of film inside the NATIONAL ARCHIVES in 1977. Groden said there was a series of vastly under exposed frames. He claims these frames ALL appeared, "to be nearly the same picture". That picture being the bottom JFK "image" that you have posted. Groden's writing is not "clumsy", it is obscure. Groden added that he, "wrote a REPORT about the roll of film for the Assassinations Committee and another REPORT about my discovery to the ARRB". Groden does Not say he submitted this alleged Autopsy Photo showing the body of JFK to either the "Assassinations Committee" or the "ARRB". Now, why wouldn't Groden include this photo with his "Report"? The answer is obvious. That photo is NOT a legit JFK Autopsy Photo.
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Groden does Not say he submitted this alleged Autopsy Photo showing the body of JFK to either the "Assassinations Committee" or the "ARRB". Now, why wouldn't Groden include this photo with his "Report"? The answer is obvious. That photo is NOT a legit JFK Autopsy Photo.
Probably because the National Archives dont allow people to make copies and have such photos under strict surveillance when someone is viewing them. Groden is saying he looked at the reel and could make out JFKs figure on the table.
These photos dont prove a conspiracy so there would appear to be no reason for Groden to be lying about them.
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I am not sure why you are trying to honey coat this. Groden claims that bottom photo was from a, "roll of 120 format black and white negative film, which had been listed as "blank", was Not blank at all". Groden claims he discovered this roll of film inside the NATIONAL ARCHIVES in 1977. Groden said there was a series of vastly under exposed frames. He claims these frames ALL appeared, "to be nearly the same picture". That picture being the bottom JFK "image" that you have posted. Groden's writing is not "clumsy", it is obscure. Groden added that he, "wrote a REPORT about the roll of film for the Assassinations Committee and another REPORT about my discovery to the ARRB". Groden does Not say he submitted this alleged Autopsy Photo showing the body of JFK to either the "Assassinations Committee" or the "ARRB". Now, why wouldn't Groden include this photo with his "Report"? The answer is obvious. That photo is NOT a legit JFK Autopsy Photo.
What Groden is describing is almost certainly the 120mm film confiscated from Floyd Reibe and deliberately exposed by the Secret Service.
Robertson's report regarding what he saw when granted access to Reibe's 120mm images can be found here:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/robertson.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/robertson.htm)
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What Groden is describing is almost certainly the 120mm film confiscated from Floyd Reibe and deliberately exposed by the Secret Service.
Robertson's report regarding what he saw when granted access to Reibe's 120mm images can be found here:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/robertson.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/robertson.htm)
The alleged JFK Autopsy bottom photo, does Not come close to matching Robertson's description of the JFK autopsy photos he viewed. I am not sure what the link you provided is supposed to prove.
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Official JFK Autopsy Photo:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Autopsy%20Gallery/Be2_hi_small.jpg)
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So as mentioned earlier, Groden is passing off a clearly fake photo as real in Absolute Proof. How anybody here is defending that is beyond me, especially in light of the clear record of him stealing evidence and later profiting off of it.
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(https://i.ibb.co/JWmtQ5LG/Groden2.jpg)
This is the image all the talk is about. Its obvious from the top image that he is recreating for the reader what the blow out wound would look like. Hes doing the same in the black and white photo as he says "This is what all the frames look like". It seems to me to be just clumsy writing.
It would have been better had be actually printed the poor quality images and let us see for ourselves how poor they are rather than doing a mock up of a "clear" version of what the image shows. But i'm guessing he never made a copy of those images due to the poor quality which is why hes now doing a mock up of what the images show.
I at no stage ever thought that was a real image.
That bottom photo was Not included in the "report" that Groden sent to the "Assassination Committee" and the "ARRB". If Groden really believed that photo was a legit JFK Autopsy Photo, he would have included it in his "report". Also, the backdrop in that bottom photo probably does Not match up with the Bethesda Morgue where the autopsy was conducted. That's another reason for Groden to withhold the bottom photo from the "Assassination Committee" and the "ARRB".
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I agree that the Groden black &white photo is obviously a "Fake"
Authentic Autopsy Photo.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Autopsy%20Gallery/Be4_hi_small.jpg)
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That bottom photo was Not included in the "report" that Groden sent to the "Assassination Committee" and the "ARRB". If Groden really believed that photo was a legit JFK Autopsy Photo, he would have included it in his "report". Also, the backdrop in that bottom photo probably does Not match up with the Bethesda Morgue where the autopsy was conducted. That's another reason for Groden to withhold the bottom photo from the "Assassination Committee" and the "ARRB".
Of course he didn't give that photo to the ARRB. It's an artists rendition of the 6 faded photos he saw.
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Of course he didn't give that photo to the ARRB. It's an artists rendition of the 6 faded photos he saw.
And specifically what happened to the alleged, "6 faded frames", that Groden discovered in the National Archives? Seeing those "6 faded frames" would corroborate Groden's story and the alleged "artists rendition".
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We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21.jpg)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pm1.gif)
We don't need Groden or the Wiegman film to confirm to the crazies that it isn't Oswald in the Doorway.
A simple comparison with Photograph Willis 21 clearly shows that Prayerman is really Prayerwoman.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/w21comp.jpg)
I have been looking at the Allen TSBD photo, it shows the end of the "chrome grab rail" on the inside of the door
it would shine brightly as the sun hit it.
Just thinking out loud.
Willis Slide #21
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Willis21.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJcT8RCq/Screenshot-2026-04-22-184110.png)
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I have been looking at the Allen TSBD photo, it shows the end of the "chrome grab rail" on the inside of the door
it would shine brightly as the sun hit it. Just thinking out loud.
I agree, Robin.
The object ( Probably a Cup or a Mug ) that I see as we view the Photograph is adjascent and to the left of the "chrome grab rail" and adjascent to and to the right of, and being held by her right hand.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pwbig.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pwbig2.gif)
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I agree, Robin.
The object ( Probably a Cup or a Mug ) that I see as we view the Photograph is adjascent and to the left of the "chrome grab rail" and adjascent to and to the right of, and being held by her right hand.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pwbig.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/pwbig2.gif)
Thanks Duncan :-*
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Hi all,
I talked with Groden's wife, who informed Jeff Morley of Groden having the Wiegman film. It's all a big misunderstanding. Groden has a 1st gen copy FROM the original, and when told this, Morley immediately demanded Groden gift it to him, which he politely declined to do.
Although Groden has an extraordinary collection of photos and films, some of which I'd never seen before, he doesn't have every original film as people accuse him of. I can't say much as to what he DOES have, but to be absolutely clear, he doesn't have the original Wiegman film. Now, I'm sure he would love to have it, just like the original Nix film, because both would resolve so many issues with the photographic evidence, but he simply doesn't have them.
Hopefully this clears things up, although I know it probably won't.
Thanks,
-Alex Harris
aka "The JFK Theorist"
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Hi all,
I talked with Groden's wife, who informed Jeff Morley of Groden having the Wiegman film. It's all a big misunderstanding. Groden has a 1st gen copy FROM the original, and when told this, Morley immediately demanded Groden gift it to him, which he politely declined to do.
Although Groden has an extraordinary collection of photos and films, some of which I'd never seen before, he doesn't have every original film as people accuse him of. I can't say much as to what he DOES have, but to be absolutely clear, he doesn't have the original Wiegman film. Now, I'm sure he would love to have it, just like the original Nix film, because both would resolve so many issues with the photographic evidence, but he simply doesn't have them.
Hopefully this clears things up, although I know it probably won't.
Thanks,
-Alex Harris
aka "The JFK Theorist"
ALEX - Thanks for clearing this "Original Wiegman" issue up. I have seen the You Tube Video you posted from inside a Groden Storage Unit. Groden was with you. You did this awhile back. Can you tell us what you might have seen inside that storage unit that was Not included in your presentation? That storage unit looked very ramshackle. Do you know/think Groden might have other storage unit(s) with more important JFK images/information squirrel'd away inside it? Thanks for ALL the JFK work product that you post on You Tube. I hope you post on this forum more often. You have a young/fresh perspective.
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ALEX - Thanks for clearing this "Original Wiegman" issue up. I have seen the You Tube Video you posted from inside a Groden Storage Unit. Groden was with you. You did this awhile back. Can you tell us what you might have seen inside that storage unit that was Not included in your presentation? That storage unit looked very ramshackle. Do you know/think Groden might have other storage unit(s) with more important JFK images/information squirrel'd away inside it? Thanks for ALL the JFK work product that you post on You Tube. I hope you post on this forum more often. You have a young/fresh perspective.
Groden has several storage units packed full of stuff. In that particular one in that video, he has most of his 16mm and 35mm copies of all of the films. I have an inventory that he made of all of the most important ones. In another storage unit, he's got probably 50+ boxes of unmarked VHS tapes of various things. I know he would tape every news special and documentary that aired on TV. He's also got some U-Matic tapes of scans from his film copies of things, as well as the master/original tapes of several of his TV appearances. If I remember correctly, he has the master tape of his March 6, 1975 showing of the Zapruder film on Good Night America.
I'm being intentionally vague, because his wife asked me to remove all of the images and videos I had posted of inside his house and storage units since he wasn't in the best health, and I think they were scared that someone will want to break in to steal his stuff. There's also just some items he has that I cannot talk about publicly, at least not while he's alive. I'm writing a biography on Groden that will detail most of what everyone wants to know which is to be released after his passing.
Thanks for the compliments. I'm trying to post on forums like this more to clear certain things up regarding Groden, among other things, but I don't always remember to look here, and it doesn't help that I keep forgetting my login info.
A bit off topic, but FYI, the tape I posted about 3 years ago with all of that WBAP footage (including the complete Darnell film), I got that from Groden, and although the quality of the footage is less than ideal, I was able to confirm that the tape was made from the 6th Floor Museum's 16mm 1st gen copy of the Darnell film. I got access to a more extended version of their 2K scan of that 1st gen copy, and it has all of the same footage in the same order, and has the same yellow-ish color to it (I'm still uncertain what exactly caused that color).
Sorry to ramble on about things, but I figured you all would want to know a lot of this about Groden, etc.
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I'm trying to post on forums like this more to clear certain things up regarding Groden, among other things, but I don't always remember to look here, and it doesn't help that I keep forgetting my login info.
Alex, nice to see you posting here. Can you comment on Groden's publishing of a clearly fake autopsy photo in his book "Absolute Proof" without him ever explaining its true nature? He lost a lot of credibility from the research community by doing this.
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Alex, nice to see you posting here. Can you comment on Groden's publishing of a clearly fake autopsy photo in his book "Absolute Proof" without him ever explaining its true nature? He lost a lot of credibility from the research community by doing this.
Yes, I've heard this is making the rounds again. Although I don't think he intended to depict it as a real autopsy photo, he words things so poorly sometimes that I'm not surprised there's a lot of confusion surrounding him. I definitely think he should've disclosed outright that it was a recreation, but for some reason, he chose instead to say that "This is what all the frames look like." The "looks like" is the most important part of that caption. Again, he should've worded it differently, but he chose not to for reasons unknown to me.
Hopefully that clears that up, or at least makes it die down for now. As much as I know Groden has done, said, and stole things that he shouldn't have, his photographic work is outstanding, and it's unfortunate that he has chosen to withhold most of it, and never release anything in good quality. I think the main issue with his books is that he comments on everything as if he knows all about it. I've come to take anything he says that's not related to the photographic evidence with a grain of salt, because most of it is, at best, misleading.
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Groden has several storage units packed full of stuff. In that particular one in that video, he has most of his 16mm and 35mm copies of all of the films. I have an inventory that he made of all of the most important ones. In another storage unit, he's got probably 50+ boxes of unmarked VHS tapes of various things. I know he would tape every news special and documentary that aired on TV. He's also got some U-Matic tapes of scans from his film copies of things, as well as the master/original tapes of several of his TV appearances. If I remember correctly, he has the master tape of his March 6, 1975 showing of the Zapruder film on Good Night America.
I'm being intentionally vague, because his wife asked me to remove all of the images and videos I had posted of inside his house and storage units since he wasn't in the best health, and I think they were scared that someone will want to break in to steal his stuff. There's also just some items he has that I cannot talk about publicly, at least not while he's alive. I'm writing a biography on Groden that will detail most of what everyone wants to know which is to be released after his passing.
Thanks for the compliments. I'm trying to post on forums like this more to clear certain things up regarding Groden, among other things, but I don't always remember to look here, and it doesn't help that I keep forgetting my login info.
A bit off topic, but FYI, the tape I posted about 3 years ago with all of that WBAP footage (including the complete Darnell film), I got that from Groden, and although the quality of the footage is less than ideal, I was able to confirm that the tape was made from the 6th Floor Museum's 16mm 1st gen copy of the Darnell film. I got access to a more extended version of their 2K scan of that 1st gen copy, and it has all of the same footage in the same order, and has the same yellow-ish color to it (I'm still uncertain what exactly caused that color).
Sorry to ramble on about things, but I figured you all would want to know a lot of this about Groden, etc.
Your "You Tube" posting of "The Full Darnell Film" is exceptionally rare. It includes that segment showing the Elm St Ext panning back to the Officer Harkness + Buddy Walthers + No Glove Motorcycle Cop encounter inside the railroad yard. That segment is extremely valuable with respect to time stamping.
Groden letting you walk through/film his storage unit says much about You. Your parents too. What you're doing can get rough. Keep anything connected to that evolving Groden Bio in a very secure place.
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On film....
Reporter: "Were you in the building at the time?"
Oswald: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."
Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting. Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps. If Oswald was not out by the front steps, then he is not prayer man. If Oswald is not prayer man, then who cares who prayer man was.
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Groden has several storage units packed full of stuff. In that particular one in that video, he has most of his 16mm and 35mm copies of all of the films. I have an inventory that he made of all of the most important ones. In another storage unit, he's got probably 50+ boxes of unmarked VHS tapes of various things. I know he would tape every news special and documentary that aired on TV. He's also got some U-Matic tapes of scans from his film copies of things, as well as the master/original tapes of several of his TV appearances. If I remember correctly, he has the master tape of his March 6, 1975 showing of the Zapruder film on Good Night America.
If I remember correctly, Groden once said that some woman stole all his material. I think her name was Diane or something. Did Groden ever mention this to you as I'm surprised he still has so much stuff if someone once stole all of his material.
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On film....
Reporter: "Were you in the building at the time?"
Oswald: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."
Oswald admits, on film, that he was inside the building at the time of the shooting. Therefore, Oswald was not out by the front steps. If Oswald was not out by the front steps, then he is not prayer man. If Oswald is not prayer man, then who cares who prayer man was.
"Prayer Man" might be a living eyewitness: (1) to the assassination, (2) a possible early 1st shot that missed, (3) etc. Knowing the ID of Prayer Man holds value beyond the Oswald stuff.
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If I remember correctly, Groden once said that some woman stole all his material. I think her name was Diane or something. Did Groden ever mention this to you as I'm surprised he still has so much stuff if someone once stole all of his material.
It was one of Groden's ex-wives that stole some things. It's hard to tell exactly what she took, but she did take some stuff. It would be nearly impossible to take everything he has. Groden has 4 storage units and a house full of stuff. At one point he owned the house next door to him and used it exclusively for storage, but had to sell the house when he became short on money and had to move everything into his house he lives in.
For example, he has about 4 or 5 big tote boxes of photos he took on the set of "JFK" in 1991. He probably has around 5,000 photos just from the JFK movie.
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For example, he has about 4 or 5 big tote boxes of photos he took on the set of "JFK" in 1991. He probably has around 5,000 photos just from the JFK movie.
These would make a nice book all on their own.
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It was one of Groden's ex-wives that stole some things. It's hard to tell exactly what she took, but she did take some stuff. It would be nearly impossible to take everything he has. Groden has 4 storage units and a house full of stuff. At one point he owned the house next door to him and used it exclusively for storage, but had to sell the house when he became short on money and had to move everything into his house he lives in.
For example, he has about 4 or 5 big tote boxes of photos he took on the set of "JFK" in 1991. He probably has around 5,000 photos just from the JFK movie.
If you have not done this already, You need to volunteer your services to compile an inventory of the Groden stuff that is currently spread all over hell's half acre. This can be on paper and/or filmed. Summer should give you the needed time to at least begin this. It would also go well with the Groden Bio your are currently working on.
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Credit: Alex Harris. "The JFK Theorist"
Raw footage #86: Robert Groden’s original scan of his 16mm copy of Dave Wiegman’s film
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Credit: Alex Harris. "The JFK Theorist"
Raw footage #86: Robert Groden’s original scan of his 16mm copy of Dave Wiegman’s film
ALEX & ROBIN - Thanks for making this "original scan" of the Wiegman Film available to ALL of us. As the better copies of the Wiegman Film make more and more obvious, there is NO CAR parked alongside the Island in the, "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone near the corner of the Elm St Extension and Elm St. Not Yet!
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ALEX & ROBIN - Thanks for making this "original scan" of the Wiegman Film available to ALL of us. As the better copies of the Wiegman Film make more and more obvious, there is NO CAR parked alongside the Island in the, "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone near the corner of the Elm St Extension and Elm St. Not Yet!
This is far from the best copy I'd be able to provide eventually, but scanning one of Groden's copies is not free, and is not cheap. He's been surprisingly open with his films as far as letting them be scanned, but the biggest problem is how much it costs. It can get up to $1 per foot and with Groden potentially having hundreds of thousands of feet, you can see how that might be a problem.
If we could scan everything Groden had today, we would, and he wouldn't have a problem with it. But it takes time and money, and both of those things are in short supply. As much as I like that so many people have volunteered to help, he's very particular about who he trusts with his stuff, so apart from funding the scanning of the stuff we can't scan, there's not a lot anyone else can do.
Groden's archive will be completely available one day. I can promise that. It just won't be tomorrow, and it won't be free.
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ALEX & ROBIN - Thanks for making this "original scan" of the Wiegman Film available to ALL of us. As the better copies of the Wiegman Film make more and more obvious, there is NO CAR parked alongside the Island in the, "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone near the corner of the Elm St Extension and Elm St. Not Yet!
So Royell, let me get this straight, your missing Wiegman car that was seen about 15 minutes later in Hughes was a getaway car that didn't getaway? Is that right?
Wouldn't a getaway car be prepared and be waiting in advance and considering the Limo was running about 15 minutes late, doesn't that disqualify your entire theory?
If indeed the car did arrive just after Wiegman filmed, couldn't that just be someone who was late to see the parade and simply hung around with the all the other people who were checking out Dealey Plaza and were investigating what happened?
Or do you just have a problem with illegal parking and want to know if the guy/girl got booked for parking in a "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone? LOL!
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFzq4Z6r/Wiegman-film-car.gif)
JohnM
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car and a truck seen in Croft behind the wall
Seen on the roadway in front of the TSBD
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Croft%20Gallery/croft~0_small.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Croft%20Gallery/croft_composite_small.jpg)
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car and a truck seen in Croft behind the wall
Seen on the roadway in front of the TSBD
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Croft%20Gallery/croft~0_small.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Croft%20Gallery/croft_composite_small.jpg)
ROBIN - Reconstructing the TSBD side of the Elm St Extension, there was: (1) The TSBD, (2) The Huge Gates, (3) The Block Wall that was part of the Grocery Warehouse, and (4) The Loading Dock. What we see behind those people is the Block Wall that was part of the Grocery Warehouse. This Block Wall is at the very end of the structures that extended BACK toward the railroad yard. This same Block Wall is visible behind the 3 Tramps in the photo showing them being marched past the Huge Gates and toward Elm St. The parked car that I have brought to the attention of everyone is parked between the "wide open" Huge Gates and the TSBD. That area of the Elm St Ext. is Not included in the background of this Croft photo. Remember that on the Darnell and Couch Films, we see Officer Baker running past the front end of this car as he sprints across the Island and toward the front door of the TSBD. This car is parked extremely far down the Elm St Ext near the corner.
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So Royell, let me get this straight, your missing Wiegman car that was seen about 15 minutes later in Hughes was a getaway car that didn't getaway? Is that right?
Wouldn't a getaway car be prepared and be waiting in advance and considering the Limo was running about 15 minutes late, doesn't that disqualify your entire theory?
If indeed the car did arrive just after Wiegman filmed, couldn't that just be someone who was late to see the parade and simply hung around with the all the other people who were checking out Dealey Plaza and were investigating what happened?
Or do you just have a problem with illegal parking and want to know if the guy/girl got booked for parking in a "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone? LOL!
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFzq4Z6r/Wiegman-film-car.gif)
JohnM
John - How are you doing? I appreciate your looking into this car.
Your questions:
(1) This "getaway" car is 1st seen on the Darnell and Couch Films as Officer Baker sprints across the Island toward the front door of the TSBD. Baker is filmed running past the front end of this parked car. This would be about :20+ SECONDS after the kill shot. The Hughes Film you mentioned shows the car somewhere around 20 MINUTES after the kill shot.
(2) The JFK Limo "running about 15 minutes late" would have Nothing to do with the "timing" of this "getaway" car. I believe the car was put into motion down the Elm St Ext by the sound of gunshots. The gunshots were the "cue" for this car to begin moving down the Elm St Ext and then park in the "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone.
(3) The "NO PARKING...." zone was back from the corner of the Elm St Ext and Elm St. If you were to look up Elm St toward the TSBD, you could Not see this car sitting in that "NO PARKING...." zone. The 'NO PARKING...." sign served the same purpose as the Indy 500 "pit stop markings" for the "getaway" car.
(4) The "NO PARKING....." zone was back from the corner, (out of sight), and just feet away from of the "wide open" Huge Gates. I believe these "wide open" Huge Gates granted clandestine Entry and Exit from the TSBD. The TSBD stairwell leading up-to and down-from from the 6TH Floor sniper's nest was on the other side of these Huge Gates.
(5) This "getaway" car was moving away from the railroad yard down the Elm St Ext. It was pointed TOWARD Elm St. The car was inside Dealey Plaza ahead of the JFK Motorcade. And remember that car access to Dealey Plaza was blocked off before the JFK Motorcade came down Main St. The "getaway" car was Not Late. It was "in position" in advance.
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The gunshots were the "cue" for this car to begin moving down the Elm St Ext and then park in the "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone.
This is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read over here. Congrats again, Royell Storing! What would have happened if the "getaway" car driver mistook car backfire for gunshots? Or some other noise? Do you really believe a plan requiring this level of detail would have just thrown up its hands and said, "well, jeez, guess there's no other way our getaway driver will ever definitively know when to start driving, so, uh, just wait for the gunshot noises" ??
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This is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read over here. Congrats again, Royell Storing! What would have happened if the "getaway" car driver mistook car backfire for gunshots? Or some other noise? Do you really believe a plan requiring this level of detail would have just thrown up its hands and said, "well, jeez, guess there's no other way our getaway driver will ever definitively know when to start driving, so, uh, just wait for the gunshot noises" ??
The "getaway" car was already waiting on the Elm St Ext near the railroad yard. It watched the JFK Limo make the wide (L) turn from Houston St onto Elm St. At that point, they knew the shots would be quickly coming from the 6th Floor sniper's nest. They heard the 3 shots coming from just in front of them, and then moved the car into its' parked position alongside the Island. They were then waiting for the shooter/spotter to leave the sniper's nest, come all the way down the stairwell, walk through the "wide open" Huge Gates, and then get into this "getaway" car that was parked almost directly across the street from the Huge Gates. There was only about 20 seconds between this car Not being filmed by Wiegman, and the car then being filmed alongside the Island by Couch and Darnell. This was very well planned.
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The "getaway" car was already waiting on the Elm St Ext near the railroad yard. It watched the JFK Limo make the wide (L) turn from Houston St onto Elm St. At that point, they knew the shots would be quickly coming from the 6th Floor sniper's nest. They heard the 3 shots coming from just in front of them, and then moved the car into its' parked position alongside the Island. They were then waiting for the shooter/spotter to leave the sniper's nest, come all the way down the stairwell, walk through the "wide open" Huge Gates, and then get into this "getaway" car that was parked almost directly across the street from the Huge Gates. There was only about 20 seconds between this car Not being filmed by Wiegman, and the car then being filmed alongside the Island by Couch and Darnell. This was very well planned.
Must be sad to believe so thoroughly in something so ridiculous.
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Must be sad to believe so thoroughly in something so ridiculous.
If this is "so ridiculous", it should be easy for you to show me this 17.5 Feet long car, standing almost 5 Feet high, parked alongside the Island on the Wiegman Film. Just show this car. It ain't there!
This intended "getaway" car moved into position alongside the Island under 20 seconds after the kill shot. The car was abandoned when DPD Officer Smith ran past the driver side of the car and DPD Officer Baker ran past the front bumper of the car. Both DPD officers did this Less than 30 seconds after the kill shot. This happening, this quickly, alarmed those inside the "getaway" car.
This "getaway" car is still the subject of an active investigation. ..................................... STAY TUNED ................................................