JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on February 25, 2026, 04:36:09 AM
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What do we see behind-and-to-the-immediate left of "Fedora Man on the Island" in the Wiegman clip?
1) Only Sonderführer Storing's 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Abandoned Getaway Car" parked next to the "Island," or
2) A combination of the rear part of Sonderführer Storing's 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Abandoned Getaway Car" parked next to the "Island" and another light-colored car behind it on the other side of Elm Street Extension, or
3) Just some rando car other than Sonderführer Storing's 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Abandoned Getaway Car," or
4) [fill in the blank]?
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What do we see behind-and-to-the-immediate left of "Fedora Man on the Island" in the Wiegman clip?
1) Only Sonderführer Storing's 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Abandoned Getaway Car" parked next to the "Island," or
2) A combination of the rear part of Sonderführer Storing's 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Abandoned Getaway Car" parked next to the "Island" and another light-colored car behind it on the other side of Elm Street Extension, or
3) Just some rando car other than Sonderführer Storing's 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Abandoned Getaway Car," or
4) [fill in the blank]?
Number 1. The GAP shows shadow from the nearby Live Oak. It appears below the front starboard passenger window.
(https://i.imgur.com/NMDBegc.jpeg)
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Number 1. The GAP shows shadow from the nearby Live Oak. It appears below the front starboard passenger window.
(https://i.imgur.com/NMDBegc.jpeg)
James - I understand the limitations you are operating under with respect to the above visual aid. Still, the traffic signal and that Wishbone Signage are NOT In Line with each other. And, ALL of those women are Not standing atop the Island. Some of those women were standing in the street. You have the curb stretching way too far out into Elm St.
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In the Darnell clip, taken at a very similar angle and only seconds later, it appears that a police officer runs down the middle of the Elm Street Extension. Here are a couple of frames that seem to me to show that officer (blue arrow) is in front of the roofline (yellow arrow) of a car parked on the TSBD side of the street. As seems to be typical of these exercises there is a fly in the ointment (lady in light colored scarf) muddying up the view. But I think these two frames might show what I am submitting.
(https://i.vgy.me/ui7xfJ.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/nRvSJc.jpg)
I believe that if James’ image were to be the case (the roofline we see is on a car on the island side of the Elm Street Extension) then the police officer would be partially hidden behind that roofline.
(https://i.vgy.me/Cswnti.jpg)
If anyone can do better with the Darnell clip frames, please do and show us the results.
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Does this photo help at all?
(http://i.imgur.com/qONjvqd.jpg) (https://imgur.com/qONjvqd)
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Does this photo help at all?
(http://i.imgur.com/qONjvqd.jpg) (https://imgur.com/qONjvqd)
Yes Steve, thanks! For people who are able to think in terms of 3D space when viewing a 2D image, it should be apparent that if the camera were to be positioned over to the camera right and closer to the angles of the Weigman and Darnell films, such that the traffic light pole and the streetlight pole are lined up with each other, that the front right wheel of the car would appear to be to the right of those poles. I think most any photos that show this vehicle would help.
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Does this photo help at all?
(http://i.imgur.com/qONjvqd.jpg) (https://imgur.com/qONjvqd)
Steve - Thanks for posting this photo. The car we see on the Bottom (L), parked on the TSBD side of the Elm St Extension, is the same car that is mistakenly being cited as a car parked alongside the Island. And this includes the (L) rear tail light of this same car being mistakenly "bulls-eye'd" as being attached to a car parked alongside the Island. This photo, along with the National Geographic "Manhunt" film footage showing this same car from the rear, makes clear what we are seeing on the Wiegman Film. We are seeing a parked car on the TSBD side of the Elm St Ext.
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Yes Steve, thanks! For people who are able to think in terms of 3D space when viewing a 2D image, it should be apparent that if the camera were to be positioned over to the camera right and closer to the angles of the Weigman and Darnell films, such that the traffic light pole and the streetlight pole are lined up with each other, that the front right wheel of the car would appear to be to the right of those poles. I think most any photos that show this vehicle would help.
(https://i.imgur.com/QLzfuQk.jpg)
You're welcome, Charles. Glad I could add some help.
So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and Royell is stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated?
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Steve - Thanks for posting this photo. The car we see on the Bottom (L), parked on the TSBD side of the Elm St Extension, is the same car that is mistakenly being cited as a car parked alongside the Island. And this includes the (L) rear tail light of this same car being mistakenly "bulls-eye'd" as being attached to a car parked alongside the Island. This photo, along with the National Geographic "Manhunt" film footage showing this same car from the rear, makes clear what we are seeing on the Wiegman Film. We are seeing a parked car on the TSBD side of the Elm St Ext.
So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and you're stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated? Is this correct?
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Does this photo help at all?
(http://i.imgur.com/qONjvqd.jpg) (https://imgur.com/qONjvqd)
Well, that's definitely the "Abandoned Getaway Car," a 1958 Pontiac Bonneville.
Whoever took this photo was standing a bit farther to the left than Wiegman was sitting in his camera car at the 1:46 mark of his film as presented frame-by-frame, below.
Question: Is the white car in the background the same car that can be said to visually "merge" with rear half or so of the "Abandoned Getaway Car" at that 1:46 mark in the Wiegman film and in the frames near it?
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Here's the uncropped photo I posted:
(https://i.imgur.com/p13FW1n.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/QLzfuQk.jpg)
You're welcome, Charles. Glad I could add some help.
So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and Royell is stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated?
NO! To the (L) of that Red Arrow is the car I referenced being "mistakenly" ID'd as being parked alongside the Island on the Wiegman Film. Your Red Arrow is pointing to the "getaway" car which is parked alongside the Island in a clearly posted "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone. The "NO PARKING..." sign is attached to the Street Light Pole directly in front of the "getaway" car. And the "getaway" car just sat there for 3+ hrs. It had been abandoned.
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Well, that's definitely the "Abandoned Getaway Car," a 1958 Pontiac Bonneville.
Whoever took this photo was standing a bit farther to the left than Wiegman was sitting in his camera car at the 1:46 mark of his film as presented frame-by-frame, below.
Question: Is the white car in the background the same car that can be said to visually "merge" with rear half or so of the "Abandoned Getaway Car" at that 1:46 mark in the Wiegman film and in the frames near it?
The car we see at Wiegman 1:46 is the same car to the (L) of the "getaway" car on the photo that Steve Barber posted. It helps mentally if you line things up with the Corvair which is parked on the TSBD side of the street. Inspector Sawyer's car, (which Amos Euins was loaded into) was parked behind this same Corvair. For perspective purposes, the photog taking the Barber photo had to be standing on Houston St.
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In the Darnell clip, taken at a very similar angle and only seconds later, it appears that a police officer runs down the middle of the Elm Street Extension. Here are a couple of frames that seem to me to show that officer (blue arrow) is in front of the roofline (yellow arrow) of a car parked on the TSBD side of the street. As seems to be typical of these exercises there is a fly in the ointment (lady in light colored scarf) muddying up the view. But I think these two frames might show what I am submitting.
(https://i.vgy.me/ui7xfJ.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/nRvSJc.jpg)
I believe that if James’ image were to be the case (the roofline we see is on a car on the island side of the Elm Street Extension) then the police officer would be partially hidden behind that roofline.
(https://i.vgy.me/Cswnti.jpg)
If anyone can do better with the Darnell clip frames, please do and show us the results.
I have some clear Couch frames handy that show Officer Smith running down the extension. I think Couch and Darnell were filming with similar camera heights. When I model that scene with the officer running down the center of the extension it does seem he would have been partially masked by the roofline. I'll have to search some for equivalent Darnell frames. Thanks for your input in this topic.
(https://i.imgur.com/GtSkE6k.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/QLzfuQk.jpg)
You're welcome, Charles. Glad I could add some help.
So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and Royell is stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated?
No Steve, I believe that Royell claims that the car you drew a red arrow pointing at is not yet there in the Weigman footage but is traveling towards that spot and doesn’t show up until about 20-seconds later in the Darnell footage.
My opinion is that it actually is there in the Wiegman footage but is mostly hidden by the crowd on the island and Elm Street. There is either an optical illusion that has fooled me and some others or I am simply wrong. I will try to show it to you in the following images. Royell apparently doesn’t see anything on the island side of Elm Street in the Wiegman footage. While I think I am seeing two different cars, James Hackerott apparently thinks there is only one car and believes it is 5.5 feet further west than I think it is.
In the following image I have drawn a yellow outline of where the right rear taillight bumper appear to be to me. If you look back at the unmarked up photo, please notice that the odd shape of the reflection of the sun on the car on the TSBD side of Elm Street Extension is similar to the taillight/bumper of the car on the island side.
(https://i.vgy.me/TuWVKp.jpg)
The following image is from the Wiegman film and is the one we are discussing. I added a yellow outline of what appears to me and some others to be the right rear taillight & bumper (similar to what I outlined on the photo you provided). I think the car on the other side of Elm Street Extension is a different one due to the different angles. However, I believe the concept is still the same.
(https://i.vgy.me/LZpnEV.jpg)
I know it is difficult to “unsee” something like this once you believe in what it appears to be to you. We apparently have three different interpretations that each one firmly believes in.
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No Steve, I believe that Royell claims that the car you drew a red arrow pointing at is not yet there in the Weigman footage but is traveling towards that spot and doesn’t show up until about 20-seconds later in the Darnell footage.
My opinion is that it actually is there in the Wiegman footage but is mostly hidden by the crowd on the island and Elm Street. There is either an optical illusion that has fooled me and some others or I am simply wrong. I will try to show it to you in the following images. Royell apparently doesn’t see anything on the island side of Elm Street in the Wiegman footage. While I think I am seeing two different cars, James Hackerott apparently thinks there is only one car and believes it is 5.5 feet further west than I think it is.
In the following image I have drawn a yellow outline of where the right rear taillight bumper appear to be to me. If you look back at the unmarked up photo, please notice that the odd shape of the reflection of the sun on the car on the TSBD side of Elm Street Extension is similar to the taillight/bumper of the car on the island side.
(https://i.vgy.me/TuWVKp.jpg)
The following image is from the Wiegman film and is the one we are discussing. I added a yellow outline of what appears to me and some others to be the right rear taillight & bumper (similar to what I outlined on the photo you provided). I think the car on the other side of Elm Street Extension is a different one due to the different angles. However, I believe the concept is still the same.
(https://i.vgy.me/LZpnEV.jpg)
I know it is difficult to “unsee” something like this once you believe in what it appears to be to you. We apparently have three different interpretations that each one firmly believes in.
Regarding "interpretation" of what we are seeing on the Wiegman still frame above, we can clearly see between the legs of the people standing on the (L) of the traffic signal pole. We can easily see the street behind them. If this 17.5 Foot long "getaway" car was already parked there, we would see traces of this long car between their legs/behind them. And that 17.5 Feet of car would be stretching from the Traffic Signal Pole back toward the railroad yard. That is a long, long, car. People have a tendency to always be looking at eye level/head level. LOOK DOWN. LOOK toward the ground behind these people on the Wiegman Film. There is Nothing behind them. No "getaway" car. Not Yet!
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Regarding "interpretation" of what we are seeing on the Wiegman still frame above, we can clearly see between the legs of the people standing on the (L) of the traffic signal pole. We can easily see the street behind them. If this 17.5 Foot long "getaway" car was already parked there, we would see traces of this long car between their legs/behind them. And that 17.5 Feet of car would be stretching from the Traffic Signal Pole back toward the railroad yard. That is a long, long, car. People have a tendency to always be looking at eye level/head level. LOOK DOWN. LOOK toward the ground behind these people on the Wiegman Film. There is Nothing behind them. No "getaway" car. Not Yet!
No Royell, what we are able to see between the legs of the spectators is the surface of the island. Here is one of James Hackerott’s images that shows how the surface of the island extends to the hips area of fedora man. I roughly outlined the shape of the island in yellow. The surface of Elm Street Extension is beyond the island. James’ 3D model is highly accurate. The line of sight is as close to Weigman's line of sight as is feasible. The main difference between James’ and my interpretations is I believe the car is about 5.5 feet further east. I have previously shown what appears to me to be a portion of the front right wheel of the car to the right of the traffic light post in the Wiegman film frame.
(https://i.vgy.me/nmNRPv.jpg)
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No Royell, what we are able to see between the legs of the spectators is the surface of the island. Here is one of James Hackerott’s images that shows how the surface of the island extends to the hips area of fedora man. I roughly outlined the shape of the island in yellow. The surface of Elm Street Extension is beyond the island. James’ 3D model is highly accurate. The line of sight is as close to Weigman's line of sight as is feasible.
(https://i.vgy.me/nmNRPv.jpg)
I mentioned earlier that the Elm St Curb/Sidewalk does NOT extend that far toward the TSBD in a straight line. It CURVES around to the Elm St Extension. That straight line curb/sidewalk depiction is just wrong. And with the hooking curb comes the hooking sidewalk too. Look again at the Wiegman still frame. Fedora Man and Purse Woman are standing where the curb hooks around onto the Elm St Ext. You can easily see the curvature of the curb at Fedora Man's feet on this same Wiegman still frame. This is why some of those women are standing in the street vs standing on the elevated Island to watch the motorcade. There is simply no room for them to stand atop the Island near the Traffic Signal Pole. Officer Baker also showed us the narrowness of this area when he ran across that skinny portion of the Island with the "getaway" car on his (L). The narrowness of this area is exactly why some people refer to it as a "Peninsula" instead of an "Island". James's Lego Man/Fedora Man replication of that area is way off.
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No Steve, I believe that Royell claims that the car you drew a red arrow pointing at is not yet there in the Weigman footage but is traveling towards that spot and doesn’t show up until about 20-seconds later in the Darnell footage.
My opinion is that it actually is there in the Wiegman footage but is mostly hidden by the crowd on the island and Elm Street. There is either an optical illusion that has fooled me and some others or I am simply wrong. I will try to show it to you in the following images. Royell apparently doesn’t see anything on the island side of Elm Street in the Wiegman footage. While I think I am seeing two different cars, James Hackerott apparently thinks there is only one car and believes it is 5.5 feet further west than I think it is.
In the following image I have drawn a yellow outline of where the right rear taillight bumper appear to be to me. If you look back at the unmarked up photo, please notice that the odd shape of the reflection of the sun on the car on the TSBD side of Elm Street Extension is similar to the taillight/bumper of the car on the island side.
(https://i.vgy.me/TuWVKp.jpg)
The following image is from the Wiegman film and is the one we are discussing. I added a yellow outline of what appears to me and some others to be the right rear taillight & bumper (similar to what I outlined on the photo you provided). I think the car on the other side of Elm Street Extension is a different one due to the different angles. However, I believe the concept is still the same.
(https://i.vgy.me/LZpnEV.jpg)
I know it is difficult to “unsee” something like this once you believe in what it appears to be to you. We apparently have three different interpretations that each one firmly believes in.
Above is the Wiegman still frame. You can clearly see Fedora Man and Purse Woman are standing where the curb/sidewalk curve/wrap around the corner. The Lego Man depiction of this area is not accurate. Not even close.
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Here's the uncropped photo I posted:
(https://i.imgur.com/p13FW1n.jpg)
Is it fair to say that Wiegman was approximately where the two "foreground" policemen are (with their backs to the camera on the right side of this photo) when he filmed the frames around the 1:46 mark of the frame-by-frame Wiegman film I linked, above, or was he somewhere between where those policemen are standing and where this cameraman took this photo from?
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I mentioned earlier that the Elm St Curb/Sidewalk does NOT extend that far toward the TSBD in a straight line. It CURVES around to the Elm St Extension. That straight line curb/sidewalk depiction is just wrong. And with the hooking curb comes the hooking sidewalk too. Look again at the Wiegman still frame. Fedora Man and Purse Woman are standing where the curb hooks around onto the Elm St Ext. You can easily see the curvature of the curb at Fedora Man's feet on this same Wiegman still frame. This is why some of those women are standing in the street vs standing on the elevated Island to watch the motorcade. There is simply no room for them to stand atop the Island near the Traffic Signal Pole. Officer Baker also showed us the narrowness of this area when he ran across that skinny portion of the Island with the "getaway" car on his (L). The narrowness of this area is exactly why some people refer to it as a "Peninsula" instead of an "Island". James's Lego Man/Fedora Man replication of that area is way off.
Frankly, I got in an hurry adding the sketched yellow line to James Hackerott’s image and inadvertently shortchanged the eastern most part of the “hook” of the island by 2 or 3 feet. It actually extends a little further east than my sketch shows which was already described as “rough outline”. Here’s the shortchanged sketch again and two images from Wiegman’s film one with and one without the added yellow outline.
(https://i.vgy.me/nmNRPv.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/WHl2gP.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/J0Dh73.jpg)
As we can see in the above two Weigman film images, the actual easternmost point of the island “hook” lines up with the second brick column east of the gated opening. I was not far enough east with my initial rough sketch.
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Is it fair to say that Wiegman was approximately where the two "foreground" policemen with their backs to the camera at the far right of this photo are when he filmed the frames around the 1:46 mark of the frame-by-frame Wiegman film I linked, above, or was he somewhere between where that policeman is standing and where this cameraman took this photo from?
I think that the area of the two white hat officers is reasonably close. James Hackerott indicated the exact location in a response to me earlier in this thread. Going by memory only, it was something like 3’ north and 13’ east of Tina Towner’s filming position on the southwestern corner of the intersection. You can go back and check James’ posts if you want to confirm the exact position.
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Number 1. The GAP shows shadow from the nearby Live Oak. It appears below the front starboard passenger window.
(https://i.imgur.com/NMDBegc.jpeg)
Imgur has actively blocked access to users in the United Kingdom as of late September/October 2025 due to regulatory pressure from the UK Information Commissioner's Office (ICO).
Instead of complying with data protection and child safety standards, the company implemented a geo-block, leaving users with "not available in your region" messages.
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Frankly, I got in an hurry adding the sketched yellow line to James Hackerott’s image and inadvertently shortchanged the eastern most part of the “hook” of the island by 2 or 3 feet. It actually extends a little further east than my sketch shows which was already described as “rough outline”. Here’s the shortchanged sketch again and two images from Wiegman’s film one with and one without the added yellow outline.
(https://i.vgy.me/nmNRPv.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/WHl2gP.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/J0Dh73.jpg)
As we can see in the above two Weigman film images, the actual easternmost point of the island “hook” lines up with the second brick column east of the gated opening. I was not far enough east with my initial rough sketch.
The point is, there is little open space behind Fedora Man and Purse Woman. People want to claim that we are seeing the Island behind both of them on the Wiegman still frames. That is not true. We are seeing the surface street. This is exactly why those women are standing in the street. There is not room for them where the curb/sidewalk wraps around the corner. And Fedora Man and Purse Woman are literally toeing that curvature.
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The point is, there is little open space behind Fedora Man and Purse Woman. People want to claim that we are seeing the Island behind both of them on the Wiegman still frames. That is not true. We are seeing the surface street. This is exactly why those women are standing in the street. There is not room for them where the curb/sidewalk wraps around the corner. And Fedora Man and Purse Woman are literally toeing that curvature.
There is roughly about 24-feet of island surface visible between fedora man and purse woman. There is roughly about 24-feet of island surface visible between the island’s Elm Street curb and the island’s Elm Street Extension curb on Weigman’s line of sight that runs between fedora man and purse lady.”
The line of sight is at such an angle that I will show a rough idea in the following images.
The image below shows the line of sight with fedora man inline with the gated opening behind him. The black arrows are meant to show the space between the island’s Elm Street Curb and the island’s Elm Street Extension curb at this line of sight.
(https://i.vgy.me/IwRYn3.jpg)
The images below are from the Roberdeau map. The first one shows the (red) line of sight with (red) cross hatches indicating the two curbs referenced above. The (black arrows) distance between the two curbs is roughly 24-feet at this specific line of sight.
(https://i.vgy.me/WtH1GI.png)
The image below is the scale of the map that I used to approximate the distance.
(https://i.vgy.me/FE1Pq2.png)
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There is roughly 24-feet of island surface visible between Fedora Nan and Purse Woman.
Which woman or lady, pray tell, is "Purse Woman" aka "Purse Lady"?
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Which woman or lady, pray tell, is "Purse Woman" aka "Purse Lady"?
She is the lady to fedora man’s immediate right. I think it would be easy to misunderstand my sentence if taken out of context. Let’s change it to read: “There is roughly about 24-feet of island surface visible between the island’s Elm Street curb and the island’s Elm Street Extension curb on Weigman’s line of sight that runs between fedora man and purse lady.”
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She is the lady to fedora man’s immediate right. I think it would be easy to misunderstand my sentence if taken out of context. Let’s change it to read: “There is roughly about 24-feet of island surface visible between the island’s Elm Street curb and the island’s Elm Street Extension curb on Weigman’s line of sight that runs between fedora man and purse lady.”
How about just "roughly" instead of "roughly about"?
(LOL!!!)
PS Thanks.
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How about just "roughly" instead of "roughly about"?
(LOL!!!)
PS Thanks.
I like my wording a little more better… ;)
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I like my wording a little more better… ;)
That's what I thought and figured.
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That's what I thought and figured.
Seriously, I worded it that way on purpose even though I know it isn’t exactly proper. Most of the time I use an iPad which has a relatively small touchscreen. That doesn’t lend itself to very precise measurements or graphics. Also, most of the time I am only trying to demonstrate a concept without being precise. So if anyone wants to nitpick the details I usually have already pointed out the less than precise nature.
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Seriously, I worded it that way on purpose even though I know it isn’t exactly proper. Most of the time I use an iPad which has a relatively small touchscreen. That doesn’t lend itself to very precise measurements or graphics. Also, most of the time I am only trying to demonstrate a concept without being precise. So, if anyone wants to nitpick the details, I usually have already pointed out the less than precise nature.
"Roughly" and "about" are synonyms, therefore "roughly about" . . . is . . . uhh . . . redundant.
But I shouldn't be so hard on you, Charles, because at least you did NOT say, "roughly about approximately," bless your little old pea-pickin' heart!
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There is roughly about 24-feet of island surface visible between fedora man and purse woman. There is roughly about 24-feet of island surface visible between the island’s Elm Street curb and the island’s Elm Street Extension curb on Weigman’s line of sight that runs between fedora man and purse lady.”
The line of sight is at such an angle that I will show a rough idea in the following images.
The image below shows the line of sight with fedora man inline with the gated opening behind him. The black arrows are meant to show the space between the island’s Elm Street Curb and the island’s Elm Street Extension curb at this line of sight.
(https://i.vgy.me/IwRYn3.jpg)
The images below are from the Roberdeau map. The first one shows the (red) line of sight with (red) cross hatches indicating the two curbs referenced above. The (black arrows) distance between the two curbs is roughly 24-feet at this specific line of sight.
(https://i.vgy.me/WtH1GI.png)
The image below is the scale of the map that I used to approximate the distance.
(https://i.vgy.me/FE1Pq2.png)
As long as you continue to rely on that Lego Man visual aid, you will continue to be lost. That thing is a joke/wrong. For starters, Fedora Man is standing much closer to the Traffic Signal Pole.
Go to YOU TUBE and search -
"Four Days in November" (1964) - David L. Wolper JFK Assassination Documentary by - LionHeart FilmWorks
39:58 - 40:05 Gives a very good overhead view of that corner. Fedora Man was standing very close to where you see that man standing near the corner.
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Frankly, I got in an hurry adding the sketched yellow line to James Hackerott’s image and inadvertently shortchanged the eastern most part of the “hook” of the island by 2 or 3 feet. It actually extends a little further east than my sketch shows which was already described as “rough outline”. Here’s the shortchanged sketch again and two images from Wiegman’s film one with and one without the added yellow outline.
(https://i.vgy.me/nmNRPv.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/WHl2gP.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/J0Dh73.jpg)
As we can see in the above two Weigman film images, the actual easternmost point of the island “hook” lines up with the second brick column east of the gated opening. I was not far enough east with my initial rough sketch.
As you can see in the Wiegman still frame above, Fedora Man is standing very close to the Traffic Signal Pole. That Lego Man position is Wrong, and therefore so is the measured footage behind him.
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As you can see in the Wiegman still frame, above, Fedora Man is standing very close to the Traffic Signal Pole. That Lego Man position is Wrong, and therefore so is the measured footage behind him.
You're wrong, Sonderführer Storing.
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I think that the area of the two white-hat officers [with their backs to the camera on the right side of the photo] is reasonably close [to where Wiegman was when he captured "Fedora Man" and Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" / light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension combo].
If Barber's photographer was standing significantly to the right of where Wiegman was positioned, and if neither the "Abandoned Getaway Car" nor the light-colored car on the other side of the street were moved between 12:30 and [whenever the photo was taken], the light-colored car on the other side of the street is probably the same one that visually merges so well with the rear part of the "Abandoned Getaway Car" in Wiegman as to lead some researchers to believe it's just one car they're seeing.
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As you can see in the Wiegman still frame above, Fedora Man is standing very close to the Traffic Signal Pole. That Lego Man position is Wrong, and therefore so is the measured footage behind him.
Judging by the image in which James overlaid his 3D model image with the Weigman image, fedora man does appear to be about 6” further east than he is in James’ model. That’s not enough difference to matter very much. Also, the line of sight I used for my roughly about approximate measurement is based upon the western edge of the opening for the large gates. That edge lines up with roughly about the approximate center of the gap between fedora man and purse lady. That gap is what you referenced when you claimed we are looking at the surface of the Elm Street Extension. However, again, there is roughly about approximately 24-feet of the surface of the island visible before the curb to Elm Street Extension, then beyond that curb is where the Elm Street Extension surface begins.
(https://i.vgy.me/ZJUU2q.png)
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If Barber's photographer was standing significantly to the right of where Wiegman was positioned, and if neither the "Abandoned Getaway Car" nor the light-colored car on the other side of the street were moved between 12:30 and [whenever the photo was taken], the light-colored car on the other side of the street is probably the same one that visually merges so well with the rear part of the "Abandoned Getaway Car" in Wiegman as to lead some researchers to believe it's just one car they're seeing.
The un-cropped image Steve Barber posted shows (from that angle) that vehicle to be essentially under the sixth set of windows from the southeast corner of the TSBD. The Weigman film frame shows another vehicle that appears to be essentially inline (from Weigman’s angle) with the western edge of the opening for the large gates. Here’s a rough sketch showing the two lines of sights and the respective locations of the two vehicles. The black dashed line and black crosshatched rectangle represent the line of sight and vehicle of the image Steve Barber posted. The blue dashed line and blue crosshatched rectangle represent Weigman’s line of sight and that vehicle.
(https://i.vgy.me/5bwKpo.jpg)
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Judging by the image in which James overlaid his 3D model image with the Weigman image, fedora man does appear to be about 6” further east than he is in James’ model. That’s not enough difference to matter very much. Also, the line of sight I used for my roughly about approximate measurement is based upon the western edge of the opening for the large gates. That edge lines up with roughly about the approximate center of the gap between fedora man and purse lady. That gap is what you referenced when you claimed we are looking at the surface of the Elm Street Extension. However, again, there is roughly about approximately 24-feet of the surface of the island visible before the curb to Elm Street Extension, then beyond that curb is where the Elm Street Extension surface begins.
(https://i.vgy.me/ZJUU2q.png)
Take a look at a good copy of the Towner Film. When the JFK Limo turns onto Elm St and clears the traffic signal pole, you can easily see the Hat of Fedora Man. If you drew a straight line between Towner and the traffic signal pole, that line would pierce through Fedora Man. Fedora Man is close enough to touch that traffic signal pole. I've tried to be nice about this, but that Lego Man visual aid is pure crapola.
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The un-cropped image Steve Barber posted shows (from that angle) that vehicle to be essentially under the sixth set of windows from the southeast corner of the TSBD. The Weigman film frame shows another vehicle that appears to be essentially inline (from Weigman’s angle) with the western edge of the opening for the large gates. Here’s a rough sketch showing the two lines of sights and the respective locations of the two vehicles. The black dashed line and black crosshatched rectangle represent the line of sight and vehicle of the image Steve Barber posted. The blue dashed line and blue crosshatched rectangle represent Weigman’s line of sight and that vehicle.
I guess you're saying that the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension in Barber's photo is not the same light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that has visually merged with the rear part of Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film.
Question: Can the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that "merges" with Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film be seen in any other photo or film that was shot (pardon the pun) that day?
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I guess you're saying that the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension in Barber's photo is not the same light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that has visually merged with the rear part of Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film.
Question: Can the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that "merges" with Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film be seen in any other photo or film that was shot (pardon the pun) that day?
There is NO "abandoned getaway car" in the Wiegman Film. The "getaway" car has Not arrived when Wiegman filmed the Island.
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I guess you're saying that the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension in Barber's photo is not the same light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that has visually merged with the rear part of Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film.
Question: Can the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that "merges" with Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film be seen in any other photo or film that was shot (pardon the pun) that day?
I guess you're saying that the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension in Barber's photo is not the same light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that has visually merged with the rear part of Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film.
Correct it appears to me that the car in Weigman’s film is parked right behind the car in the photo Steve Barber posted.
Question: Can the light-colored car on the other side of Elm Street Extension that "merges" with Storing's "Abandoned Getaway Car" in the Wiegman film be seen in any other photo or film that was shot (pardon the pun) that day?
I am not sure. But will keep this question in mind and let you know if I find it.
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Take a look at a good copy of the Towner Film. When the JFK Limo turns onto Elm St and clears the traffic signal pole, you can easily see the Hat of Fedora Man. If you drew a straight line between Towner and the traffic signal pole, that line would pierce through Fedora Man. Fedora Man is close enough to touch that traffic signal pole. I've tried to be nice about this, but that Lego Man visual aid is pure crapola.
The reason fedora man may be lined up with the traffic signal post in Tina Towner’s film is due to the difference in the two lines of sight in Weigman’s film frame versus Tina Towner’s line of sight. From Weigman’s line of sight there appears to be about 21-25/32” distance between fedora man and the traffic signal post. However there is roughly about 12-feet of depth-distance between fedora man and the post when viewing from a line of sight that shows the width of the island (see below image).
(https://i.vgy.me/yj4Cxi.jpg)
James Hackerott and I have worked together several times before on various exercises. His 3D model has always proven to be highly accurate. We have to improvise on the characters and various objects we place in the models. That’s why they sometimes look a little different than reality. But they serve the purpose and that’s what is important.
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The reason fedora man may be lined up with the traffic signal post in Tina Towner’s film is due to the difference in the two lines of sight in Weigman’s film frame versus Tina Towner’s line of sight. From Weigman’s line of sight there appears to be about 21-25/32” distance between fedora man and the traffic signal post. However there is roughly about 12-feet of depth-distance between fedora man and the post when viewing from a line of sight that shows the width of the island (see below image).
(https://i.vgy.me/yj4Cxi.jpg)
James Hackerott and I have worked together several times before on various exercises. His 3D model has always proven to be highly accurate. We have to improvise on the characters and various objects we place in the models. That’s why they sometimes look a little different than reality. But they serve the purpose and that’s what is important.
With respect to the Hackrotte "visual aids", they were wrong on: (1) Lego Fedora Man, (2) Lego shadows on the Island, (3) Huge Gates "shadows" revealing them to be open when Euins went by them on the Harkness 3 wheel motorcycle. That is not a good track record. Like I said, "your call".
You need to be specific. When you say "post", I do not know which specific "post" you are referencing.
If you don't want to find a good copy of the Towner Film and check out the position of Fedora Man, that's another "your call". Failure to carefully examine that which is in plain sight is exactly why this case remains unsolved after 62+ years.
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There is no "abandoned getaway car" in the Wiegman film. The "getaway" car had not arrived when Wiegman filmed the Island.
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Yes, there is.
In the pertinent Wiegman frames, part (James Hackerott says it's a middle part) of your "Abandoned Getaway Car" is visually merged with a light-colored car parked on the other side of Elm Street Extension.
Now that's been established, we're trying to figure out exactly which of the light-colored cars parked on the other side of Elm Street Extension in various photographs and films -- taken before, during, and after the shooting -- is the one in Wiegman that's merging with your light-colored 1958 Pontiac Bonneville parked next to the "Island."
When I say "visually merging" with your "Getaway Car" I mean perhaps just the rear part (or, more likely and as James Hackerott prefers -- a farther forward part) of said 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" is overlapping the light-colored car in the background. Whether we're seeing the rear part or the middle part of your "Getaway Car," what really "seals the deal" that it really IS your 1958 Pontiac Bonneville Getaway Car is the distinctive 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "jet exhaust" design on its side, plus the fact that its passenger's-side rear tire and its passenger's-side front tire and [fill in the blank] are also visible in certain Wiegman frames.
Perhaps the light-colored car that your "Getaway Car" is visually overlapping in Wiegman is one of those two light-colored cars that were still parked next to the TSBD and behind Inspector Sawyer's car when Amos Euins was put in it a few minutes after the assassination in the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto a few months ago!
Warning: One of those two light-colored cars behind Inspector Sawyers' car is barely visible in said documentary.
-- Tom
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Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Yes, there is.
In the pertinent Wiegman frames, the rear part (James Hackerott says it's a farther-forward part) of your "Abandoned Getaway Car" is visually merged with a light-colored car parked on the other side of Elm Street Extension.
Now that's been established, we're trying to figure out exactly which of the light-colored cars parked on the other side of Elm Street Extension in various photographs and films -- taken before, during, and after the shooting -- is the one in Wiegman that's merging with your light-colored 1958 Pontiac Bonneville parked next to the "Island" and with perhaps just the rear part (or, as James Hackerott prefers -- a farther forward part) of said Pontiac visible to the immediate left of "Fedora Man's" bare forearm / wrist, and perhaps its passenger's-side rear tire and passenger's-side front tire and [fill in the blank] also visible in said frames.
Perhaps it's one of those two light-colored cars parked next to the TSBD and behind Inspector Sawyer's car (one of which is barely visible) in the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto a few months ago!
-- Tom
Graves, you're embarrassing yourself again. Inspector Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at 12:35. You guys have absolutely no idea what car was parked where on the TSBD side of Elm St. This is exactly why the Lego stuff is pure BS: There's no 17.5 FEET LONG car parked alongside the Island on the Wiegman Film. Believe what you see.
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Graves, you're embarrassing yourself again. Inspector Sawyer arrived at the TSBD at 12:35.
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Did you or did you not "turn me onto" a National Geographic documentary which shows the 1958 Pontiac Bonneville at issue still parked next to the "Island" [fill in the blank] minutes / hours after the assassination?
In that footage, do we or do we not see Inspector Sawyer's car parked closest to the camera next to the TSBD?
If that's not Inspector Sawyer's car, all I can say is BFD.
Pardon my German.
Whether or not Amos Euins was inside that car at that time and whether or not it was Inspector Sawyers' car is immaterial to what we're debating.
The important thing is that two light-colored cars can be seen parked next to the TSBD behind "Inspector Sawyer's car," and one or the other of them could very well have been the light-colored car that your 1959 Pontiac Bonneville Getaway Car visually merged with in Wiegman.
-- Tom
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Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Did you or did you not "turn me onto" a National Geographic documentary which shows the 1958 Pontiac Bonneville at issue still parked next to the "Island" [fill in the blank] minutes / hours after the assassination?
In that footage, do we or do we not see Inspector Sawyer's car parked closest to the camera next to the TSBD?
If that's not Inspector Sawyer's car, all I can say is BFD.
Pardon my German.
Whether or not Amos Euins was inside that car at that time and whether or not it was Inspector Sawyers' car is immaterial to what we're debating.
The important thing is that two light-colored cars can be seen parked next to the TSBD behind "Inspector Sawyer's car," and one or the other of them could very well have been the light-colored car that your 1959 Pontiac Bonneville Getaway Car visually merged with in Wiegman.
-- Tom
All that matters is the Wiegman Film. The "getaway" car was Not there when Wiegman filmed the Island. As I have told you many, many, times. Your JFK Assassination foundation is weak. Try to remember, THE WIEGMAN FILM.
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All that matters is the Wiegman Film. The "getaway" car was Not there when Wiegman filmed the Island. As I have told you many, many, times. Your JFK Assassination foundation is weak. Try to remember, THE WIEGMAN FILM.
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Can the 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" be seen parked next to the "Island" at the 8:56 mark in the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto?
Yes, or no?
Regardless, in the frames around that 8:56 mark, can you see the two light-colored cars that are parked next to the TSBD and behind (i.e., in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot) the car I've been calling "Inspector Sawyers' Car"?
Yes, or no?
-- Tom
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Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Yes, there is.
In the pertinent Wiegman frames, part (James Hackerott says it's a middle part) of your "Abandoned Getaway Car" is visually merged with a light-colored car parked on the other side of Elm Street Extension.
Now that's been established, we're trying to figure out exactly which of the light-colored cars parked on the other side of Elm Street Extension in various photographs and films -- taken before, during, and after the shooting -- is the one in Wiegman that's merging with your light-colored 1958 Pontiac Bonneville parked next to the "Island."
When I say "visually merging" with your "Getaway Car" I mean perhaps just the rear part (or, more likely and as James Hackerott prefers -- a farther forward part) of said 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" is overlapping the light-colored car in the background. Whether we're seeing the rear part or the middle part of your "Getaway Car," what really "seals the deal" that it really IS your 1958 Pontiac Bonneville Getaway Car is the distinctive 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "jet exhaust" design on its side, plus the fact that its passenger's-side rear tire and its passenger's-side front tire and [fill in the blank] are also visible in certain Wiegman frames.
Perhaps the light-colored car that your "Getaway Car" is visually overlapping in Wiegman is one of those two light-colored cars that were still parked next to the TSBD and behind Inspector Sawyer's car when Amos Euins was put in it a few minutes after the assassination in the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto a few months ago!
Warning: One of those two light-colored cars behind Inspector Sawyers' car is barely visible in said documentary.
-- Tom
The Nat Geo snippet was important due to it showing the car that was parked 2 cars IN FRONT of Sawyer's car. THAT is the car that was being mistaken for a car parked alongside the island on the Wiegman Film. This was all due to yet another "Lego" visual aid screw up. And now here You are, focusing on cars parked BEHIND Inspector Sawyer's that arrived well after Wiegman filmed the Island.
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Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Can the 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" be seen parked next to the "Island" at the 8:56 mark in the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto?
Yes, or no?
Regardless, in the frames around that 8:56 mark, can you see the two light-colored cars that are parked next to the TSBD and behind (i.e., in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot) the car I've been calling "Inspector Sawyers' Car"?
Yes, or no?
-- Tom
You obviously have NO IDEA where Inspector Sawyer parked his car. Yet, you want to discuss the "getaway" car? Again, your lack of JFK Assassination Foundation is embarrassingly apparent.
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The Nat Geo snippet was important due to it showing the car that was parked 2 cars IN FRONT of Sawyer's car. THAT is the car that was being mistaken for a car parked alongside the island on the Wiegman Film. This was all due to yet another "Lego" visual aid screw up. And now here You are, focusing on cars parked BEHIND Inspector Sawyer's that arrived well after Wiegman filmed the Island.
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
I clarified what I meant by "behind 'Sawyer's Car'" in my post.
Perhaps you missed it.
Take some deep breaths.
In through the nose . . . out through the mouth . . .
Nice dodging, btw.
You should go to work for Fox News, Newsmax, or OANN.
-- Tom
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Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Can the 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" be seen parked next to the "Island" at the 8:56 mark in the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto?
Yes, or no?
Regardless, in the frames around that 8:56 mark, can you see the two light-colored cars that are parked next to the TSBD and behind (i.e., in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot) the car I've been calling "Inspector Sawyers' Car"?
Yes, or no?
-- Tom
"Regardless"? You have absolutely no idea what car is parked where and you deem this "regardless"? This is why your opinion(s) with respect to the "getaway" car are meaningless. You are completely lost.
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"Regardless"? You have absolutely no idea what car is parked where and you deem this "regardless"? This is why your opinion(s) with respect to the "getaway" car are meaningless. You are completely lost.
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
You're a xxxxxx' . . . aww . . . never mind.
Regardless, if you'll go to the 8:55 mark in this National Geographic documentary (thank you for turning me onto it) and look closely at the area directly behind the head of the man who's bending over to speak with Amos Euins, Harold Brennan or Donald Duck in Inspector Sawyers' or Bridgette Bardot's car, I think you'll see a small part of a light-colored car that's parked BETWEEN Inspector Sawyers' or Bridgette Bardot's car and the mostly visible light-colored car IN FRONT OF (i.e., in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot) IT.
I'm not referring to the dark-colored car that's parked down Elm Street Extension by your Huge Gates, nor am I referring, obviously, to the dark-colored car that's parked way, way down the street.
Am I right?
Can you see it?
Yes, or no?
If so, could that hard-to-see light-colored car be the one that your 1958 Pontiac Bonneville visually overlapped and "merged with" in Wiegman?
Or . . . gasp . . . could it have been that mostly visible car that's parked two cars ahead (i.e., in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot) of Inspector Sawyers' / Bridgette Bardot's car?
-- Tom
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4818.msg174640.html#msg174640
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Do your research regarding the cars parked on the Elm St Extension and then we can discuss this issue. This explains why you have issues with comprehending the ongoing discussion. You simply do Not have the foundational information required to do so.
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Do your research regarding the cars parked on the Elm St Extension and then we can discuss this issue. This explains why you have issues with comprehending the ongoing discussion. You simply do Not have the foundational information required to do so.
In other words, you can see the almost-hidden car I'm talking about in the National Geographic documentary, but you don't want to talk about it.
I totally understand, Mr. Tinfoil-Hat JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theorist.
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Correction. This is never easy. While attempting to make a 3D version of my 2D texture map version of the Bonneville i found that I accidentally used a car length of about 18.5' rather than the true 17.5' value. When corrected that will compress the previous model by about 5%. Keeping the nose of the car at the same location the tail will appear shortened about 11". Sorry friends :-X
James
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Correction. This is never easy. While attempting to make a 3D version of my 2D texture map version of the Bonneville i found that I accidentally used a car length of about 18.5' rather than the true 17.5' value. When corrected that will compress the previous model by about 5%. Keeping the nose of the car at the same location the tail will appear shortened about 11". Sorry friends :-X
James
Just like I said.
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Just like I said.
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
You said something was off by eleven inches?
-- Tom
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With respect to the Hackrotte "visual aids", they were wrong on: (1) Lego Fedora Man, (2) Lego shadows on the Island, (3) Huge Gates "shadows" revealing them to be open when Euins went by them on the Harkness 3 wheel motorcycle. That is not a good track record. Like I said, "your call".
You need to be specific. When you say "post", I do not know which specific "post" you are referencing.
If you don't want to find a good copy of the Towner Film and check out the position of Fedora Man, that's another "your call". Failure to carefully examine that which is in plain sight is exactly why this case remains unsolved after 62+ years.
Retention and comprehension issues made obvious once again.
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[...]
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
By going to the 11:42 mark of the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto (thank you very much for doing so), you can see that there were two light-colored cars on the TSBD-side of Elm Street Extension -- and not terribly far from the TSBD's front steps -- shortly after Wiegman and Darnell filmed the "island," its environs, and the people standing on and near it during the assassination.
Question: Which one of those two light-colored cars do YOU think the rear part of your 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" visually overlapped in the Wiegman clip?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4818.48.html
-- Tom
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Dear Sonderführer Storing,
By going to the 11:42 mark of the National Geographic documentary you turned me onto (thank you very much for doing so), you can see that there were two light-colored cars on the TSBD-side of Elm Street Extension -- and not terribly far from the TSBD's front steps -- shortly after Wiegman and Darnell filmed the "island," its environs, and the people standing on and near it during the assassination.
Question: Which one of those two light-colored cars do YOU think the rear part of your 1958 Pontiac Bonneville "Getaway Car" visually overlapped in the Wiegman clip?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4818.48.html
-- Tom
Do your own research. You are lazy with a mouth.
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Do your own research. You are lazy with a mouth.
Don't wanna answer the question, eh, Storing?
Keep up the good work you charlatan, you.
Vladimir Putiin cherishes your stinkin' [fill in the blank].
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You know absolutely nothing about: (1) Elm St Extension, (2) cars parked on it, and, (3) people standing around it. This is why you cling to these ever changing Lego Visual Aids. I refrain from punching down on you, and instead encourage you to do your JFK Assassination research.
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Does this photo help at all?
(http://i.imgur.com/qONjvqd.jpg) (https://imgur.com/qONjvqd)
The value of this photo is that it shows how little of the Island there is behind the traffic signal pole. And Fedora Man was standing very close to the traffic signal pole. Just look at the Towner Film after the JFK Limo makes the turn onto Elm St. Fedora Man is almost leaning on that traffic light.