JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on November 15, 2025, 07:37:45 AM
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What are your favorite reasons for believing Oswald didn't do it?
1) He was a crummy shot!
2) He had a crummy rifle!
3) He didn't even own a rifle!
4) There were no nitrates on his cheek!
5) He couldn't possibly have fired all three shots in 5.8 seconds!
6) As those nice KGB officers in Mexico City said, he was way too nervous fire a rifle accurately, so it must have been the CIA!
7) He admired JFK!
8 ) He was standing on the front steps!
9) He was in the second-floor lunchroom, buying a Dr. Pepper I mean a Coca-Cola!
10) He said he didn't do it and that he was just a patsy!
11) [fill in the blank!]
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What are your favorite reasons for believing Oswald didn't do it?
1) He was a crummy shot.
2) He had a crummy rifle.
3) He didn't even own a rifle.
4) There were no nitrates on his cheek.
5) He couldn't possibly have fired three shots -- with two hitting the target -- in 5.8 seconds.
6) As those KGB officers in Mexico City said, he was way too nervous fire a rifle accurately, so it must have been the CIA.
7) He admired JFK.
8 ) He was standing on the front steps!
9) He was in the second-floor lunchroom, buying a Dr. Pepper I mean a Coca-Cola.
10) He said he didn't do it that and that he was just a patsy!
11) [fill in the blank]
My favourite reason is the eye-witness testimony of those who saw the man on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination.
They describe the shooter as wearing clothes Oswald wasn't wearing and didn't own.
That he had a bald spot Oswald didn't have.
That this spot was only visible when the shooter leaned his head to the left, indicating a left-handed shooter.
That he appeared to be much older than Oswald.
That he was firing a rifle that didn't have a scope.
That the shooter was still stood at the window as the limo entered the underpass when he was supposed to be racing downstairs.
I also like the fact that Bonnie Ray Williams had his lunch in the Sniper's Nest. That really caused the WC Sham some headaches.
(I'm only joining in because I can't stand to see you rack up yet another zero-reply thread ;))
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My favourite reason is the eye-witness testimony of those who saw the man on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination.
They describe the shooter as wearing clothes Oswald wasn't wearing and didn't own.
That he had a bald spot Oswald didn't have.
That this spot was only visible when the shooter leaned his head to the left, indicating a left-handed shooter.
That he appeared to be much older than Oswald.
That he was firing a rifle that didn't have a scope.
That the shooter was still stood at the window as the limo entered the underpass when he was supposed to be racing downstairs.
I also like the fact that Bonnie Ray Williams had his lunch in the Sniper's Nest. That really caused the WC Sham some headaches.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
You wrote, "My favourite reason is the eye-witness testimony of those who saw the man on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination."
It's a pity that those witnesses were standing far below the sixth-floor window and looking up at a sharp angle.
You also wrote words to the effect, "Bonnie Williams had lunch in the Sniper's Nest."
You're wrong, danny BOY o'meara.
There was a tall partition, comprised of stacks of boxes, between Williams and the Sniper's Nest.
Do try to get your facts straight, won't you?
-- Tom
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Here a few of the reasons I don't believe Oswald did the shooting:
-- The alleged shooting feat was far, far beyond Oswald's mediocre rifle skills.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4580.0.html
-- Oswald's alleged shooting feat has actually never been duplicated. The only rifle test that used the alleged murder weapon itself, the WC's rifle test that involved three Master-rated riflemen, utterly failed to duplicate Oswald's supposed performance. See
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4589.msg170647.html#msg170647
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4543.0.html
-- Oswald had no motive for shooting JFK. By all accounts, he thought highly of JFK.
-- Voice-stress analysis (VSA) of his adamant claims of innocence while in police custody indicate he was telling the truth, especially when he said he had not shot anyone.
-- The accounts of the women who went down the stairs shortly after the shooting refute the idea that Oswald was on the sixth floor during the assassination.
-- NAA study of the paraffin cast of Oswald's right cheek found no chemical traces of gunshot residue, powerfully indicating he did not fire a rifle during the assassination. See
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4438.0.html
-- Oswald could not have gotten inside the foyer door to the second-floor lunchroom without being seen by Roy Truly, who was running well ahead of Officer Baker. Even the WC's highly rigged reenactment of the Baker-Oswald encounter proved this beyond any reasonable doubt.
-- The JFK autopsy skull x-rays prove definitively that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the ammo that Oswald allegedly used.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3641.0.html
-- The first hit on JFK occurred when a gunman in the sixth-floor window would have had his view of JFK obstructed by the oak tree.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4358.0.html
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The alleged shooting feat was far, far beyond Oswald's mediocre rifle skills.
"Mediocre" my you-know-what.
Oswald, firing a rifle with iron sights at targets as far away as 500 yards, was rated as highly as "sharpshooter" in the Marines.
Oswald's alleged shooting feat has actually never been duplicated. The only rifle test that used the alleged murder weapon itself, the WC's rifle test that involved three Master-rated riflemen, utterly failed to duplicate Oswald's supposed performance.
Were they given 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots?
Oswald had no motive for shooting JFK. By all accounts, he thought highly of JFK.
Oswald was a psychologically disturbed, self-described Marxist who was interviewed by the KGB at least twice in Moscow and who had lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk for two-and-one-half-years.
If he didn't kill JFK for the KGB, he killed him for his own twisted psychological reasons and to "advance The Dialectic."
Voice-stress analysis (VSA) of his adamant claims of innocence while in police custody indicate he was telling the truth, especially when he said he had not shot anyone.
Body-language experts have concluded otherwise.
The accounts of the women who went down the stairs shortly after the shooting refute the idea that Oswald was on the sixth floor during the assassination.
He probably started down about 20 seconds before they did. Therefore, he could have been just inside the lunchroom and Truly and Baker could have been inside the lunchroom's "vestibule" when Adams and Styles were quickly traversing the short distance between the stairwells in the corner.
NAA study of the paraffin cast of Oswald's right cheek found no chemical traces of gunshot residue, powerfully indicating he did not fire a rifle during the assassination.
Did anyone ever fire the Carcano to determine whether or not it sprayed nitrates on a shooter's face?
Oswald could not have gotten inside the foyer door to the second-floor lunchroom without being seen by Roy Truly, who was running well ahead of Officer Baker. Even the WC's highly rigged reenactment of the Baker-Oswald encounter proved this beyond any reasonable doubt.
See above.
The JFK autopsy skull x-rays prove definitively that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the ammo that Oswald allegedly used.
LOL!
Good one!
The first hit on JFK occurred when a gunman in the sixth-floor window would have had his view of JFK obstructed by the oak tree.
JFK (and JBC) was first hit between Z-222 and Z-224.
D'oh.
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Did anyone ever fire the Carcano to determine whether or not it sprayed nitrates on a shooter's face?
Any recreation that doesn't use Oswald's actual rifle is pointless but luckily Oswald's rifle was used to analyse the ejection of nitrates onto the shooters face.
Testing with the actual weapon that Oswald owned and used!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsCjnSmx/CE-139-Oswald-s-rifle.jpg)
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test with the exhibit, with the rifle, 139, to determine whether that left a powder residue on the right cheek?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Will you describe that test?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; this time we ran a control. We were interested in running a control to find out just what the possibility was of getting a positive reaction after a person has thoroughly washed their hands. Mr. Killion used green soap and washed his hands, and we ran a control, both of the right cheek and of both hands.
We got many reactions on both the right hand and the left hand, and he had not fired a gun that day.
Mr. EISENBERG. This was before firing the rifle?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. That was before firing the rifle. We got no reaction on the cheek.
Mr. EISENBERG. Also before firing the rifle?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. We fired the rifle. Mr. Killion fired it three times rapidly, using similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. We reran the tests both on the cheek and both hands. This time we got a negative reaction on all casts.
Mr. EISENBERG. So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct, and there were none on the hands. We cleaned off the rifle again with dilute HCl. I loaded it for him. He held it in one of the cleaned areas and I pushed the clip in so he would not have to get his hands near the chamber--in other words, so he wouldn't pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the receiver. When we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or on his cheek. On the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we got numerous reactions.
And again!
Mr. EISENBERG. So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct
Lieutenant Day from the Dallas Police Department also testified regarding nitrate residue from a rifle and tells us that Oswald's face cast was the first one he was associated with and then Day goes on to explain that "in my experience there, shooting a rifle with a telescopic sight there would be no chance for nitrates to get way back or on the side of the face from a rifle".
Mr. DAY. I directed them to make it, and also paraffin casts or just of a piece of paraffin on the left side of the face to see if there were any nitrates there.
Mr. BELIN. On the left side or right side of the face?
Mr. DAY. Right side.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the results of the paraffin tests were?
Mr. DAY. The test on the face was negative.
Mr. BELIN. Had you ever done a paraffin test on a face before?
Mr. DAY. No; actually--had it not been for the particular type of case and this particular situation here we would not have at this time. It was just something that was done to actually keep from someone saying later on, "Why didn't you do it?" Actually, in my experience there, shooting a rifle with a telescopic sight there would be no chance for nitrates to get way back or on the side of the face from a rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Well, the chamber, the nature of the chamber of the rifle, would that have anything to do with that?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In what way?
Mr. DAY. A rifle such as that one we are talking about here from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, in my opinion, would not throw nitrates back to where a man's face was when he is looking through a telescopic sight.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you ran these tests you had understood that the man, Oswald, had fired a pistol, too, hadn't he?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Would you expect to have any positive tests from a pistol on the cheek?
Mr. DAY. I would expect more with a revolver with an open cylinder than I would from a rifle. Actually, for most practical purposes, I would not be surprised if there would be no nitrates from a man firing a rifle.
JohnM
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-- The first hit on JFK occurred when a gunman in the sixth-floor window would have had his view of JFK obstructed by the oak tree.
For a start, from Zapruder's POV, JFK was first hit just before he emerged from behind the sign.
The SS simulated the Limo position at a number of Zapruder frames and compared these locations to what Oswald would see through his scope from his Sniper's nest, but unfortunately the Limo the SS used was not the same model(lacking the much lower jump seat), so the position of Connally as compared to Kennedy could not be accurately recreated and has led many people to say that the positions of the two men based on the following SS recreation does not support the Single Bullet Fact.
Oswald clearly waited for the Limo to clear the Oak tree before he took aim with his 2nd shot. Thanks Michael, for adding further evidence to explain the sequence of shots being fired from Oswald's Sniper's Nest.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yjsNCJh/ce-895-z225.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yqb7kPj1/ce-895-z225-from-depository.jpg)
A direct comparison between Z225(a fraction of a second after the SBF, approximately Z222/Z223) and the SS recreation shows that the Connally stand-in was too high and too close to the side of the Limo, now when we align the corrected position with the SS recreation we can see that Connally indeed was in the location that fully supports the SBF.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jzrh5JHQ/ss-zap-kenn-conn.gif)
Connally's jacket billows as the bullet passes through.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2jvdam4bt00/VVfoJFx064I/AAAAAAABGGI/pKHXhM1_PmY/s1600/Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif)
Both men react simultaneously.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif)
JohnM
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TG-
Maybe, maybe, maybe.
Yes, the GSR on LHO's cheeks is not meaningful. Way before the JFKA, the Buffalo Police Department fired lots of rifles many many times, and rarely got GSR on the shooter's cheeks.
I think LHO just ran down the stairs before Adams and Styles.
Nobody got a good look at the figure in the TSBD6 sniper's nest. Could be LHO, probably was. He is best suspect.
But...
Gov. JBC said he heard the first shot, turned around to his right, then began to turn forward, and then was shot in the back and "pushed forward."
That happens about Z-295.
If JBC is shot by the same slug that passed through JFK, he appears unaware of it, and makes a 180-degree turn in his seat to look for JFK...we (Z-film watchers) see the left profile of JBC's face after he was shot through the chest, having his wrist broken, and slug buried in this thigh.
My take is JBC was shot ~Z-295, and JFK at Z-313.
So, two shooters, both fro behind.
A smoke-and-bang show at the GK---a diversion? A shot? The one that fractured JBC's wrist?
I don't know.
Caveat emptor and draw your own conclusions.
And I firmly, without equivocation, in a virile way, say: "Maybe!"
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Gov. JBC said he heard the first shot, turned around to his right, then began to turn forward, and then was shot in the back and "pushed forward."
Correct.
He was looking to his right about the time he heard the missing-everything "Z-124" shot.
About 1.5 seconds after the missing-everything "Z-124" shot, he consciously started turning his head rapidly to his left until he was looking straight ahead at Z-161 (as can be seen in the Croft photo).
Then, at Z-165 or so, he started turning his head and upper torso back to his right to try to catch a glimpse of JFK "over his right shoulder" to see if he was okay.
But he couldn't "see" JFK because JFK's head was turned really, really far to his right and his hand was raised to wave to someone and therefore it and forearm blocked JBC's full view of JFK's in-profile-and-therefore-hard-to-recognize face.
Not "seeing" JFK and still wondering if he was okay, JBC started turning back to his left to try to catch a glimpse of him over his left shoulder, but he only made it about 1/4 of the way there (i.e., he was still turned to his right) when he (and JFK) was hit by CE-399 between Z-222 and Z-224.
If you'll look at Z-229, you'll see that JBC was "pushed forward" when he (and JFK) was hit by CE-399 around Z-222 / Z-224.
Have you never looked at the individual frames in the Costella Frame-by-Frame thingy, nor watched the Zapruder film with numbered frames?
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TG-
I gave a virile "maybe" reply, and I am sticking with it.
I have looked at the Costella enough times for one life.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
Equivocation is the mark of a real man.
Maybe!
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I have looked at the Costella enough times for one life.
Quitter.
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TG-
Maybe I am a quitter, maybe not.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
OK, when does this happen in the Z-film?
Maybe at ~Z-295.
That might be my take on the matter, and it could be maybe I stick with my take on the matter, perhaps.
The way a real man does.
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Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42) When does this happen in the Z-film?
Why do you trust the veracity of the recollections of a person (a loquacious, "self-confidant" politician, at that) regarding the circumstances and happenings surrounding his being shot in the chest by a high-velocity bullet?
Hint: JBC wasn't "doubled over" by the Z-222 / Z-224 bullet.
He was pushed forward an inch or two (see Z-229), and then he turned almost completely around to see who had shot him and/or to say something to JFK and Jackie.
After that, his wife pulled him down into her lap and he lost consciousness after a couple of seconds.
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TG-
You are a towering pillar of fortitude, formidable in all regards.
But I do not believe JBC did a 180-degree turn in his seat, to check on JFK after being shot through the chest.
I am Mr. Maybe-man, and I am sticking with maybe he did, or maybe not. Maybe not I lean.
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I do not believe JBC did a 180-degree turn in his seat, to check on JFK after being shot through the chest.
News flash: Neither do I.
In reality, the "I Gotta See If JFK's Okay" turn JBC was referring to started at Z-165 when he turned his head and upper torso far) to his right (after having made a rapid and conscious head turn to his left between Z-150 and 161) in a futile attempt to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder.
I've already pointed that out to you a couple of times.
Or do you think his starting to turn far to his right at Z-165 was just to check out the hot chicks JFK may have been waving to?
PS
"Towering"?
Not really.
Having shrunk two inches over the past four decades, I'm only 6' 3", now.
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Connally: "I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. [...] The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double." (1 HSCA 42)
When does this happen in the Z-film?
It didn't. He fantasized it.
Or Nellie fantasized it and convinced gullible John.
His misremembering it like that is just one of the many JFKA anomalies the KGB* has "made hay" from over the past sixty-six years.
*Today's SVR and FSB
Bonus post:
I've edited my previous post.
You wrote:
"I do not believe JBC did a 180-degree turn in his seat, to check on JFK after being shot through the chest."
My edited reply:
Neither do I.
In reality, the "I Gotta See If JFK's Okay" turn JBC was referring to started at Z-165 when he turned his head and upper torso far to his right (after having made a rapid and conscious head turn to his left between Z-150 and 161) in a futile attempt to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder.
I've already pointed that out to you a couple of times.
Or, do you think his starting to turn so far to his right at Z-165 was just to check out the hot chicks JFK may have been waving to?
PS
Me, "towering"?
Not really.
Having shrunk two inches over the past four decades, I'm only 6' 3", now.
Addendum:
Rhetorical questions regarding Z-frame 187:
1) Why is JBC's head turned so far to his right?
Answer: To see if JFK is okay after hearing Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124".
2) Why is the guy (Kenny O'Donnell) riding in the passenger's-side jump seat in the Secret Service follow-up car tilting his head so far to his right?
Answer: To see if JFK is okay after hearing Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124".
3) Why is Rosemary Willis looking back towards the TSBD instead of JFK and Jackie in the limo?
Answer: Because she heard Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124" when it came from that direction.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z187.jpg
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https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z278.jpg
OK, see Z-278.
You will see the left profile of JBC's face. He is looking backwards towards the rear of the limo.
JBC's face has done a 180-degree turn, and his body about 120-degrees.
Jackie is looking at JFK, who has his hands or fists at his throat. I suspect JFK has been shot from behind.
In the SBT, JBC is doing these large movements after being shot through the chest, having his right wrist shot through fractured, and having slug burrow into left thigh. Such a nice guy, not concerned for himself and checking on El Presidente instead.
That dog don't hunt, IMHO. Or maybe not anyway. JBC is not shot at Z-278. That's what my dog says. I like my dog.
(https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z278.jpg)
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
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[...]
I'm confused as to what you think regarding the timings of JBC's movements:
1) When, exactly, did he consciously react head-turn-wise and / or upper-body-turn-wise to the sounds of the first, missing-everything, shot?
(I say he started doing that at Z-150 -- as we can see in the Zapruder film -- and that he had finished said head turn to his left by Z-161 -- as we can see in the Croft photo.)
2) When, exactly, did he turn his head and upper torso far to his right in a futile attempt to see if JFK was okay after hearing said shot?
(I say he started doing that at Z-165 and was in the process of turning back to his left -- so he could try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his left shoulder -- when he was hit by CE-399 at Z-222 / Z-224.)
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TG-
My dog tells me JFK was shot ~Z-200, just before or as he goes "behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign.
In Z-204 it looks like Jackie has turned her head towards JFK, and he is beginning to move hands to throat.
Then JBC is shot at ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313.
Those earlier movements you refer to...just seem like wiggles and whatnot.
That's my story and I am sticking with it, and my dog.
Likely, it was LHO shooting at JFK, or at least in his direction.
But so was someone else.
You are a pillar of fortitude and righteousness, but my dod says what my dog says.
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TG-
My dog tells me JFK was shot ~Z-200, just before or as he goes "behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign.
In Z-204 it looks like Jackie has turned her head towards JFK, and he is beginning to move hands to throat.
Then JBC is shot at ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313.
Those earlier movements you refer to...just seem like wiggles and whatnot.
That's my story and I am sticking with it, and my dog.
Likely, it was LHO shooting at JFK, or at least in his direction.
But so was someone else.
You are a pillar of fortitude and righteousness, but my dod says what my dog says.
How cute.
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TG-
My dog tells me JFK was shot ~Z-200, just before or as he goes "behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign.
In Z-204 it looks like Jackie has turned her head towards JFK, and he is beginning to move hands to throat.
Then JBC is shot at ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313.
Those earlier movements you refer to...just seem like wiggles and whatnot.
That's my story and I am sticking with it, and my dog.
Likely, it was LHO shooting at JFK, or at least in his direction.
But so was someone else.
This is what Connally told the Warren Commission:
"I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye...."
Questions:
In which Zapruder frame did Connally, in response to the sounds of the first shot, start turning to his right to look back over his right shoulder?
When he did so, why couldn't he catch JFK in the corner of his eye?
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RG-
Our admirable pillar of indefatigable intellectual supremacy, righteousness and honor:
Looks like JBC starts to look to his right ~Z-240.
JBC has trouble looking at JFK, as JFK has slumped to his (JFK's) left and toward Jackie. JBC has craned or turned his neck as much as it can go.
This is also happening in seconds, of course.
But I will concede this: JFKA researchers are chasing more leads than a blind dog in a meat-house.
I am talked out on this topic, and have been for years. The floor is yours.
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It looks as though JBC starts to look to his right [in response to the sounds of the first shot] around Z-240.
If you can buck up enough courage, please compare Z-200 with Z-260.
Which of those two frames more accurately shows JBC looking over his right shoulder?
Here they are for you:
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z260.jpg
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JBC has trouble looking at JFK [in Z-240], as JFK has slumped to his (JFK's) left and toward Jackie. JBC has craned or turned his neck as much as it can go [in Z-260].
Your claim that the reason JBC can't see JFK in Z-260 is because JFK has slumped to his left, and JBC simply can't crane or turn his head far enough is disingenuous to say the least.
How do you know JBC can't crane or turn his head any farther, and regardless, what makes you think he's not looking right at JFK in Z-260, but can't "see" him?
Factoid: Connally, too, by Z-260 had already been shot (by CE-399 @ Z-222/Z-224), and the shock to his system was obviously so intense that he either couldn't "see" JFK, or, if he could see him, couldn't remember later having done so.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z260.jpg
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TG-
A titan, towering like the Colossus of Rhodes over other feeble JFKA junkies, you are.
But...we disagree on this one.
Probably in the EF-JFKA and this forum you are the smartest guy.
But, I looked at the Costella and other Z films a million times, and lined it up best I could with testimonies, including the frequent "bang...bang-bang" account of audible gunshots.
As stated, I doubt JBC did a 180-degree turn in his seat after being shot through the chest, having his right wrist shot through, and the slug burrowed into his thigh.
That dog don't hunt.
A reasonable assumption is that JBC would be immediately incapacitated, and would fall forward into his wife's lap. Seems likely to me.
Why is it impossible for LHO to have had co-conspirators? For some G-2 guys to work on his pro-Cuba blah-blah, and get him to shoot at JFK limo?
Maybe so. Maybe not.
I am talked out.
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I doubt JBC did a 180-degree turn in his seat after being shot through the chest, having his right wrist shot through, and the slug burrowed into his thigh. A reasonable assumption is that JBC would be immediately incapacitated and would fall forward into his wife's lap.
JBC's spinal cord and vital organs were intact after he was hit by CE-399 at Z-222/Z-224, so there was nothing preventing him from turning around (which he did) if he wanted to.
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What are your favorite reasons for believing Oswald didn't do it?
1) He was a crummy shot.
2) He had a crummy rifle.
3) He didn't even own a rifle.
4) There were no nitrates on his cheek.
5) He couldn't possibly have fired three shots -- with two hitting the target -- in 5.8 seconds.
6) As those KGB officers in Mexico City said, he was way too nervous fire a rifle accurately, so it must have been the CIA.
7) He admired JFK.
8 ) He was standing on the front steps!
9) He was in the second-floor lunchroom, buying a Dr. Pepper I mean a Coca-Cola.
10) He said he didn't do it and that he was just a patsy!
11) [fill in the blank]
I think FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover's memo only 2 days after the assassination should be at or near the top of everyone's list of reasons to consider that Oswald didn't do it... or at least was not the mastermind behind the event...
When top law enforcement officials want to direct the narrative early on in order to sway public opinion - without any semblance of a thorough investigation - they are most likely trying to cover up something. They are not after the truth of the matter in any regard.
“The thing I am concerned about… is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin.” [J. Edgar Hoover, Memo to Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, 11/24/63]
-
TG--
You are an indomitable, indefatigable colossus, a pillar of gimlet-eyed insights, and a towering figure upon the JFKA research scene.
But I think JBC did not do a 180-degree turn in his seat after being shot through the chest (taking out four inches of rib and leaving a large ragged exit hole in his chest), having his right wrist shot through and fractured, and having the slug burrow into his thigh. I think he was immediately incapacitated.
My and my dog are sticking with our narrative.
LHO is still the best suspect for the TSBD6 sniper.
What the GK smoke-and-bang show was about, I don't know. A diversion?
The floor is yours.
-
TG--
You are an indomitable, indefatigable colossus, a pillar of gimlet-eyed insights, and a towering figure upon the JFKA research scene.
Flattery, although true in this case, will get you nowhere.
I think JBC did not do a 180-degree turn in his seat after being shot through the chest (taking out four inches of rib and leaving a large, ragged exit hole in his chest), having his right wrist shot through and fractured, and having the slug burrow into his thigh. I think he was immediately incapacitated.
JBC was neither the first nor the last person to do something "superhuman" after having a rib smashed by a bullet.
. . . . . . .
ME: Has anyone ever done something that was physically impressive after having a bullet smash one of their ribs?
GROK: Yes, there are several well-documented real-world examples of people performing physically impressive (or at least highly functional) feats shortly after having ribs broken by gunshot wounds.
Here are some of the most striking (pardon the pun):
Theodore Roosevelt (1912) – The most famous case.
While campaigning in Milwaukee, Roosevelt was shot in the chest with a .38 revolver at close range. The bullet cracked his fourth rib on the right side, deflected slightly, and lodged in the chest wall (it was never removed).
Immediately after being shot, Roosevelt coughed into his hand, saw no bright red blood (correctly concluding the lung was not pierced), stood up, walked to his car, and insisted on delivering his scheduled 90-minute speech before going to the hospital. He began with the legendary line: “Friends, I shall ask you to be as quiet as possible. I don’t know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot—but it takes more than that to kill a bull moose.”
50 Cent (Curtis James Jackson III) – 2000
Shot nine times at point-blank range with a 9 mm handgun while sitting in a car. One bullet struck him in the chest and reportedly fractured a rib (sources vary whether it was a direct rib fracture or secondary from lung collapse).
Despite massive blood loss and injuries to his face, hand, legs, and torso, he survived and within months was back in the studio recording. While not an immediate athletic feat, the fact that he regained full physical capacity (and later became known for intense workout regimens) after that degree of trauma, including rib damage, is remarkable.
Military and law-enforcement cases (multiple)
U.S. soldiers and Marines in Iraq/Afghanistan have continued fighting after taking 5.56 or 7.62 rounds to the plate or body that cracked/fractured ribs but did not penetrate vital organs thanks to body armor or glancing hits. Many accounts describe troops returning fire, dragging wounded buddies, or running hundreds of meters to cover while having one or more cracked ribs from bullet impacts.
One specific documented case: LAPD Officer Kristina Ripatti (2006) was shot in the chest with a .45 ACP; the round cracked a rib and collapsed a lung. Despite being paralyzed from the waist down by a second bullet that hit her spine, she still managed to return fire and wound her assailant before collapsing.
In short: Yes, people have done extraordinarily impressive things—speech-giving, returning fire, continuing to fight, or rapidly returning to high-level physical condition—after having a rib smashed or cracked by a bullet. Theodore Roosevelt’s 90-minute speech minutes after taking a .38 to the chest remains one of the most extreme examples in history.
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I think FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover's memo only 2 days after the assassination should be at or near the top of everyone's list of reasons to consider that Oswald didn't do it... or at least was not the mastermind behind the event...
When top law enforcement officials want to direct the narrative early on in order to sway public opinion - without any semblance of a thorough investigation - they are most likely trying to cover up something. They are not after the truth of the matter in any regard.
“The thing I am concerned about… is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin.” [J. Edgar Hoover, Memo to Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, 11/24/63]
Jake, the DP on the very first day had enough evidence to charge Oswald with JFK's murder. And in the next couple of days before the memo, the Authorities accumulated a Mountain of evidence.
How can a sane rational man come to any other conclusion?
1. The recovered bullet and fragments all came from C2766.
2. C2766 was purchased and possessed by Oswald.
3. Oswald made an atypical visit mid-week to Irving to visit his wife.
4. Oswald carried a long package to work which he told Frazier contained curtain rods but later he lied and told the Police that he only carried his lunch.
5. The rifle which was stored in a blanket at Irving was not there on the afternoon of the 22nd.
5. The rifle had Oswald's palm print.
7. The 3 types of fibres on the rifle were a match to Oswald's arrest shirt, while not conclusive the prohibitive probability strongly suggests that they are the same.
8. Oswald immediately fled the scene of the crime (flight)
9. Oswald got on and off a slow moving bus. (flight)
10. Oswald got out of his cab way past his Rooming house.
11. Oswald killed a cop(the first on duty Dallas cop in years to be killed by gunfire), why would Oswald feel the need to kill a cop if he didn't kill Kennedy.
12. Oswald tried to kill more cops when he was arrested.
13. Oswald lied about owning the rifle that killed Kennedy.
14. Oswald lied about the package he took to work on the 22nd.
15. The rifle carry bag had Oswald's prints.
16. Oswald had no alibi.
17. Oswald at the height of the Cold War defected to the Enemy.
18. Oswald took surveillance photos of General Walkers house and a short time later attempted to assassinate General Walker.
19. ETC, ETC,...
With the above evidence, why do hardcore conspiracy theorist's continue to cast doubt on this initial conclusive evidence, and consider that 60+ years later none of this evidence has been refuted.
JohnM
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Verily, Roosevelt and the "Bull Moose Party."
"Schrank's bullet lodged in Roosevelt's chest after penetrating Roosevelt's steel glasses case and passing through a 50-page-thick (single-folded) copy of his speech titled "Progressive Cause Greater Than Any Individual", which he was carrying in his jacket pocket."
There is a vast difference between a revolver bullet c. 1912 (likely bullet ~880 fps) that first struck a steel glasses case and then a 50-page book...and near 2000-fps large slug from an M-C carbine that passed through a dress shirt (JBC).
From afar, I admire Roosevelt's fortitude, nonetheless. His photos make him look like a fatty, and a faux toughie who shot animals, but who knows maybe some blubber helped his survival too.
We are on different pages on JBC.
Signing out.
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"Schrank's bullet lodged in Roosevelt's chest after penetrating Roosevelt's steel glasses case and passing through a 50-page-thick (single-folded) copy of his speech titled "Progressive Cause Greater Than Any Individual", which he was carrying in his jacket pocket."
There is a vast difference between a revolver bullet c. 1912 (likely bullet ~880 fps) that first struck a steel glasses case and then a 50-page book...and near 2000-fps large slug from an M-C carbine that passed through a dress shirt (JBC).
CE-399 slowed a bit when it passed through JFK, and it probably hit JBC's fifth rib tangentially and traveled parallel to it.
We are on different pages on JBC. Signing out.
Probably because you're conspiracy-minded and therefore refuse to read what I've posted and look at the frames I've mentioned.
-
The floor is yours.
-
The floor is yours.
Whatever.
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
You wrote, "My favourite reason is the eye-witness testimony of those who saw the man on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination."
It's a pity that those witnesses were standing far below the sixth-floor window and looking up at a sharp angle.
You also wrote words to the effect, "Bonnie Williams had lunch in the Sniper's Nest."
You're wrong, danny BOY o'meara.
There was a tall partition, comprised of stacks of boxes, between Williams and the Sniper's Nest.
Do try to get your facts straight, won't you?
-- Tom
It's a pity that those witnesses were standing far below the sixth-floor window and looking up at a sharp angle.
Dear Comrade Jerkov,
You have posted some piss-weak nonsense in your time and this is right up there with the worst of your drivel.
Your counter-argument to eye-witness testimony describing someone other than Oswald on the 6th floor is that they had to look up. :D
This is a new low point for you.
And the bar was pretty low to begin with.
The fact remains that the eye-witnesses were describing someone other than Oswald.
"They describe the shooter as wearing clothes Oswald wasn't wearing and didn't own.
That he had a bald spot Oswald didn't have.
That this spot was only visible when the shooter leaned his head to the left, indicating a left-handed shooter.
That he appeared to be much older than Oswald.
That he was firing a rifle that didn't have a scope.
That the shooter was still stood at the window as the limo entered the underpass when he was supposed to be racing downstairs."
There was a tall partition, comprised of stacks of boxes, between Williams and the Sniper's Nest.
Do try to get your facts straight, won't you?
Because you've just swallowed down what the Warren Commission has fed you, like a good boy, you are completely unfamiliar with any evidence that contradicts your spoon-fed beliefs.
If you knew anything about this case you'd know that Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were initially found on top of the Sniper's Nest.
All six of the first officers on the scene describe the lunch remains being found in the south-east corner, where the empty hulls were discovered. Three of them specifically state that the lunch remains were discovered on top of the barricade/shield of boxes that formed the back wall of the Sniper's Nest.
Do some research.
-
All six of the first officers on the scene describe the lunch remains being found in the south-east corner, where the empty hulls were discovered.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Three empty hulls were found in the Sniper's Nest: Two under the window, and one near the stacks of boxes that served as a "partition" between where Williams ate and the space where Oswald sat waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street.
Officer Mooney testified that Captain Fritz picked the hulls up to look at them and then set each of them back down where he'd picked them up.
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Three empty hulls were found in the Sniper's Nest: Two under the window, and one near the stacks of boxes that served as a "partition" between where Williams ate and the space where Oswald sat waiting for the limo to appear on Houston Street.
Officer Mooney testified that Captain Fritz picked the hulls up to look at them and then set each of them back down where he'd picked them up.
-- Tom
Three empty hulls were found in the Sniper's Nest:
That's why I'm saying you buffoon!
The first officers on the scene found Bonnie Ray's lunch remains ON TOP OF THE ROW OF BOXES THAT FORMED THE BACK WALL OF THE SNIPER'S NEST,.
Don't you understand basic English all of a sudden?
Don't you see the significance of the fact that his lunch remains were initially discovered ON TOP OF THE SNIPER'S NEST?
The lunch remains were not initially discovered near the two-wheeler truck where they were photographed by Studebaker.
By the time Fritz (accompanied by Tom Alyea) arrived at the south east corner of the 6th floor, the lunch remains had been moved.
Do some research.
Do you understand the importance of this fact?
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Three empty hulls were found in the Sniper's Nest:
That's why I'm saying you buffoon!
The first officers on the scene found Bonnie Ray's lunch remains ON TOP OF THE ROW OF BOXES THAT FORMED THE BACK WALL OF THE SNIPER'S NEST,.
Don't you understand basic English all of a sudden?
Don't you see the significance of the fact that his lunch remains were initially discovered ON TOP OF THE SNIPER'S NEST?
The lunch remains were not initially discovered near the two-wheeler truck where they were photographed by Studebaker.
By the time Fritz (accompanied by Tom Alyea) arrived at the south east corner of the 6th floor, the lunch remains had been moved.
Do some research.
Do you understand the importance of this fact?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Your poorly written last post implied that the three hulls were close together.
D'oh!
Regardless, please tell us:
Did Bonnie Ray Williams commit perjury, or did the Warren Commission, corrupted by evil, evil, evil Allen Dulles and Gerald Ford, alter his testimony as to where he sat while drinking his bottle of Dr. Pepper and eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich and bag of Fritos?
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Your poorly written last post implied that the three hulls were close together.
D'oh!
Regardless, please tell us:
Did Bonnie Ray Williams commit perjury, or did the Warren Commission, corrupted by evil, evil, evil Allen Dulles and Gerald Ford, alter his testimony as to where he sat while drinking his bottle of Dr. Pepper and eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich and bag of Fritos?
-- Tom
Dear Pinko,
your ignorance regarding the evidence in this case is profound.
If the Warren Commission didn't spoon feed it to you, you don't have the first clue about it.
It is a fact that Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were initially discovered ON TOP OF THE STACK OF BOXES THAT FORMED THE BACK WALL OF THE SNIPER'S NEST.
You are clearly unaware of this fact.
Rather than spread your ignorance, you should do some actual research.
Study the testimonies/statements of Mooney, Hill, McCurley, Weatherford, Brewer and Haygood regarding what they saw when they first went over to the southeast corner of the 6th floor, where the Sniper's Nest was located.
Once you've familiarised yourself with this evidence, you need to ask yourself this question - What is the significance of this discovery?
Do some research.
-
It is a fact that Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were initially discovered on the top of the stack of boxes that formed the back wall of the Sniper's Nest.
You need to ask yourself this question - What is the significance of this discovery?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
What do you think the significance of that great discovery is?
That Bonnie Ray Williams sat inside the Sniper's Nest while drinking his Dr. Pepper and eating his Fritos and his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich?
If so, do you think that when he was finished, he took his empty Dr. Pepper bottle around to the other side of the "side wall" and left it on the floor, there, or do you think he tossed it over said "side wall" from inside the Sniper's Nest and it just happened to land upright?
If you accept the fact that he ate his lunch outside the Sniper's Nest near windows three and four, do you find it highly, highly implausible that he didn't notice Oswald who was either hiding in the far corner of the Sniper's Nest or down at the other end of the building, waiting for you to leave, when he left his bag (with the chicken bones and the empty Fritos bag) on top of the Sniper's Nest back "wall"?
Do you really think he perjured himself in front of the Warren Commission, that evil, evil Allen Dulles and/or evil, evil Gerald Ford altered his testimony, and that that pesky Dr. Pepper bottle was planted there by the evil, evil, CIA, the evil, evil FBI, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?
It seems to me that Bonnie Ray probably ate his lunch where he testified he did -- near or actually sitting on the "two wheeler" by the third and fourth windows, but that's not very exciting, is it. (British dialect.)
Regardless, keep up the good work, danny old BOY o'meara.
Vladimir Putin's counting on you!
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
What do you think the significance of that great discovery is?
That Bonnie Ray Williams sat inside the Sniper's Nest while drinking his Dr. Pepper and eating his Fritos and his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich?
If so, do you think that when he was finished, he took his empty Dr. Pepper bottle around to the other side of the "side wall" and left it on the floor, there, or do you think he tossed it over said "side wall" from inside the Sniper's Nest and it just happened to land upright?
If you accept the fact that he ate his lunch outside the Sniper's Nest near windows three and four, do you find it highly, highly implausible that he didn't notice Oswald who was either hiding in the far corner of the Sniper's Nest or down at the other end of the building, waiting for you to leave, when he left his bag (with the chicken bones and the empty Fritos bag) on top of the Sniper's Nest back "wall"?
Do you really think he perjured himself in front of the Warren Commission, that evil, evil Allen Dulles and/or evil, evil Gerald Ford altered his testimony, and that that pesky Dr. Pepper bottle was planted there by the evil, evil, CIA, the evil, evil FBI, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?
It seems to me that Bonnie Ray probably ate his lunch where he testified he did -- near or actually sitting on the "two wheeler" by the third and fourth windows, but that's not very exciting, is it. (British dialect.)
Regardless, keep up the good work, danny old BOY o'meara.
Vladimir Putin's counting on you!
-- Tom
You are the one insisting that Bonnie Ray ate his lunch where he testified he did.
It's up to you to explain this discrepancy.
If you believe he ate his lunch a couple of aisles over from the Sniper's Nest, how did his lunch remains end up on top of it?
This is something that refutes your own interpretation of events regarding this matter, how do you explain that?
Do you do what the Warren Commission did (of course you do) and simply ignore this inconvenient fact?
If so, what does that say about you?
-
You are the one insisting that Bonnie Ray ate his lunch where he testified he did.
It's up to you to explain this discrepancy.
If you believe he ate his lunch a couple of aisles over from the Sniper's Nest, how did his lunch remains end up on top of it?
This is something that refutes your own interpretation of events regarding this matter, how do you explain that?
Do you do what the Warren Commission did (of course you do) and simply ignore this inconvenient fact?
If so, what does that say about you?
Dear widdle danny BOY o'meara,
Not a "couple of aisles over," but one aisle over, between the third and fourth windows from the corner of the building. (The first and second windows were inside Oswald's Sniper's Nest.)
The fact that Bonnie Ray set his used lunch bag on top of a stack of boxes, probably while on his way down to the fifth floor, seems suspicious to you?
How long have you been paranoiac, widdle danny BOY o'meara?
Perhaps you should get professional help.
-- Tom
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Dear widdle danny BOY o'meara,
Not a "couple of aisles over," but one aisle over, between the third and fourth windows from the corner of the building. (The first and second windows were inside Oswald's Sniper's Nest.)
The fact that Bonnie Ray set his used lunch bag on top of a stack of boxes, probably while on his way down to the fifth floor, seems suspicious to you?
How long have you been paranoiac, widdle danny BOY o'meara?
Perhaps you should get professional help.
-- Tom
It's tiring having to deal with your lack of basic knowledge about this case.
The two wheeler truck, where Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were photographed by Studebaker, is at the end of the third aisle over from Houston, in front of the third set of windows from the east side of the building. Ball mistakenly refers to each set of windows as a single window and, because he represents the Warren Commission, you have just swallowed it down without question.
In order for Bonnie Ray to casually leave his lunch remains ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest on his way down to the 5th floor, he would have to walk all the way to the end of the third aisle from Houston Street, take a right, walk over two aisles and then walk all the way down the first aisle to the Sniper's Nest, leave his lunch on top of the Sniper's Nest, turn around, walk all the way down the first aisle then all the way across the back of the building to the northwest corner.
Your belief that the two wheeler truck was in the aisle next to the Sniper's Nest is incorrect.
The question still remains - how did Bonnie Ray's lunch remains end up on top of the Sniper's Nest if he had his lunch in the third aisle along?
You have clearly checked the Statements/testimonies of the first officers on the scene who reported the lunch remains on top of the SN.
You accept that the lunch remains were initially found there.
But you have failed to explain how they got there.
-
It's tiring having to deal with your lack of basic knowledge about this case. The two-wheeler truck, where Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were photographed by Studebaker, is at the end of the third aisle over from Houston, in front of the third set of windows from the east side of the building. Ball mistakenly refers to each set of windows as a single window and, because he represents the Warren Commission, you have just swallowed it down without question. In order for Bonnie Ray to casually leave his lunch remains on top of the Sniper's Nest on his way down to the 5th floor, he would have to walk all the way to the end of the third aisle from Houston Street, take a right, walk over two aisles and then walk all the way down the first aisle to the Sniper's Nest, leave his lunch on top of the Sniper's Nest, turn around, walk all the way down the first aisle then all the way across the back of the building to the northwest corner. Your belief that the two wheeler truck was in the aisle next to the Sniper's Nest is incorrect. The question still remains - how did Bonnie Ray's lunch remains end up on top of the Sniper's Nest if he had his lunch in the third aisle along? You have clearly checked the Statements/testimonies of the first officers on the scene who reported the lunch remains on top of the SN. You accept that the lunch remains were initially found there. But you have failed to explain how they got there.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Williams' labeling the windows he ate lunch near as "W3" and "W4" on the floor plan was grossly inaccurate?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=227&search=sixth
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Williams' labeling the windows he ate lunch near as "W3" and "W4" on the floor plan was grossly inaccurate?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=227&search=sixth
-- Tom
::) Oh brother...doing your research for you is a drag.
It isn't Williams who labels the windows, it's Ball.
Bonnie Ray refers to 'sets' of windows:
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch-1 am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
NOT the third or fourth window...the third or fourth set of windows.
Bonnie Ray is saying that he sat in the third or fourth aisle over from Houston Street, as each aisle ends in a set of windows.
Each set of windows comprises of two windows but Ball, one of your heroes, mistakenly starts referring to each set of double windows as a single window, so you blindly follow his lead. That's why he labels each set of windows "W3" etc.
Luckily, because I do actual research, I'm aware of Studebaker's testimony in which he informs us, in detail, where the two wheeler is situated. It is at the end of the third aisle along from the Houston Street side of the building. It is in front of the third set of windows.
It doesn't matter though.
It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented showing how wrong you are.
You have demonstrated that you are just one of those guys whose mind is made up and no amount of evidence is going to change that.
Your incredibly weak attempt at explaining how Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were initially discovered ON TOP OF THE SNIPER'S NEST has failed. You will just make some other nonsense up or stick to your original nonsense, no matter what.
The one thing you will not do is consider the importance of this, seemingly innocuous, piece of evidence.
Just for laughs, here's what Studebaker has to say:
"I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is marked - it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. That was taken looking directly into that - this is the sack with those chicken bones and all that mess was in there too."
Mr. BALL. That's the third row over?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the third aisle from Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. That would be the third set of windows?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be the third set of windows - it would be - one, two, three.
Mr. BALL. The third set of windows from Houston Street - you mark it.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes
Do some research.
-
[...]
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Whose lunch bag did Kent Biffle find under the two-wheeler, not far from the empty bottle of Dr. Pepper two "sets" of windows over from Oswald's window, which lunch bag had chicken bones, a bit of Frito corn chip and some wax paper according to DPD Crime Scene Investigator Robert Lee Studebaker?
-- Tom
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Whose lunch bag did Kent Biffle find under the two-wheeler, not far from the empty bottle of Dr. Pepper two "sets" of windows over from Oswald's window, which lunch bag had chicken bones, a bit of Frito corn chip and some wax paper according to DPD Crime Scene Investigator Robert Lee Studebaker?
-- Tom
So, you've abandoned your silly notion that Bonnie Ray had his lunch in the third aisle then casually strolled over to the Sniper's Nest and left his lunch remains on top of the Sniper's Nest on his way to the 5th floor.
You are correct to abandon it, as it was nonsense.
The lunch remains found by the two-wheeler are Bonnie Ray's lunch remains. Studebaker is clear that there was only one set of lunch remains found on the 6th floor.
This is the problem, which I have no doubt you are going to continue ducking - HOW IS IT THESE SAME LUNCH REMAINS WERE INITIALLY DISCOVERED ON TOP OF THE SNIPER'S NEST?
The lunch remains photographed by Studebaker by the two-wheeler, at the end of the third aisle, in front of the third set of windows from Houston Street, were initially discovered by Luke Mooney ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. Luke Mooney was the officer who discovered the SN, the first person on that scene after the shooting.
This means two things:
1] When Bonnie Ray finished his lunch he left the remains of the lunch on top of the Sniper's Nest. Why would he do that?
2] These lunch remains were removed from the Sniper's Nest and placed by the two-wheeler truck shortly after their discovery. Who did that and why?
Five of the first officers on the scene after Mooney described the lunch remains as being in the area of the Sniper's Nest. At least two of these officers, along with Mooney, describe the lunch remains ON TOP of the SN.
Bonnie Ray testified that he had his lunch by the two-wheeler truck.
But his lunch remains were found on top of the Sniper's Nest, some 30 feet away.
By the time Fritz was on the scene these lunch remains had been removed and placed by the two-wheeler truck.
What is going on here?
Why did the Warren Commission Sham completely ignore the testimony/statements of the six officers who discovered the lunch remains on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Are you also going to ignore their testimony?
-
The lunch remains found by the two-wheeler are Bonnie Ray's lunch remains.
Studebaker is clear that there was only one set of lunch remains found on the 6th floor.
How is it these same lunch remains were initially discovered on top of the Sniper's Nest?
The lunch remains photographed by Studebaker by the two-wheeler at the end of the third aisle, in front of the third set of windows from Houston Street, were initially discovered by Luke Mooney on top of the Sniper's Nest.
This means two things:
1] When Bonnie Ray finished his lunch, he left the remains on top of the Sniper's Nest. Why would he do that?
2] These lunch remains were removed from the Sniper's Nest and placed by the two-wheeler truck shortly after their discovery. Who did that and why?
Five of the first officers on the scene after [after what? Mooney described the lunch remains as being in the area of the Sniper's Nest. At least two of these officers, along with Mooney, describe the lunch remains on top of the Sniper's Nest.
Bonnie Ray testified that he had his lunch by the two-wheeler truck, but his lunch remains were found on top of the Sniper's Nest, some 30 feet away.
By the time Fritz was on the scene, these lunch remains had been removed and placed by the two-wheeler truck.
What is going on here?
Why did the Warren Commission completely ignore the testimony/statements of the six officers who discovered the lunch remains on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Where did Billy Ray Williams eat his lunch?
Inside the Sniper's Nest?
-- Tom
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Chicken Bone Story as compiled by Colin Crow
Two lunches. There was BRW’s lunch with a pop bottle and Fritos bag right where he stated it was located, 3rd aisle. In addition, there was a single piece of chicken on a carton used as a barricade with an explanation from Mr. Shelley. Not one of these officers statements mention the frito bag or pop bottle.
Mr. BALL - Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken
Bonnie Ray Williams stated that he ate his lunch near the 3rd set of windows on the south side of the sixth floor.
-----------------------------
Luke Mooney was first on the scene of the SN. His initial report mentions the lunch.
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date: November 23 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Vickery to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dock at the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Vickery went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signalled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webster, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing. At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons. We continued to search the building for a suspect.
Note that Mooney does not mention the lunch prior to discovery of the SN.
McCurley's Report
Officer A. D. McCurley, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office (Statement 11/22/63)
Officer Jack Faulkner and I, together with several other City officers went to the building and started checking the floors. We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney, who was also on the 6th floor, hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw 3 expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide from the view of anyone who happened to come up on that floor and had arranged 3 other cartons of books next to the window as though to make a rifle rest. This area was roped off and guarded until Captain Will Fritz of Dallas Police Department Homicide Bureau arrived. It was about this same time that Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone yelled that he had found the rifle which had been placed between some rows of cardboard boxes near the staircase which leads down to the 5th floor.
Officer Jack Faulkner
There were also some chicken bones. Evidently he had chicken for his lunch. There were people that worked with him that had left maybe at noon. I don't know where they went because I didn't investigate that part of it. I've also heard of a bag which carried the rifle, but I never saw that. It could have been there, but I didn't notice it.
From "No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy" - Larry A. Sneed
Officer Roger Craig, Deputy Sheriff
Mr. BELIN - About how soon after they were found did you see them, laying on the floor?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell---or what?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember who that was?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you say there was a sack laying there?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BELIN - How big a sack was that?
Mr. CRAIG - It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag.
Mr. BELIN - Well, the kind-of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr. CRAIG - Yeah,--uh-huh.
Gerald Hill also recalls the finding of the SN and the Chicken Leg and Bag of top of the SN Boxes
Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.
At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab.
Harry Weatherford
The 11-23-63 report of Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford notes "I came down to the 6th floor, and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said "here are some shells." I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade."
Officer Brewer
Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see?
Mr. BREWER. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Where were they?
Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window.
Mr. BELIN. What window?
Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece at chicken.
Officer Haygood
Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.
Mr. BELIN. Which window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.
Eugene Boone
Mentions seeing the chicken before discovering the rifle in his Oral History with the 6th Floor Museum.
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Chicken Bone Story as compiled by Colin Crow
Two lunches. There was BRW’s lunch with a pop bottle and Fritos bag right where he stated it was located, 3rd aisle. In addition, there was a single piece of chicken on a carton used as a barricade with an explanation from Mr. Shelley. Not one of these officers statements mention the frito bag or pop bottle.
Mr. BALL - Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken
Bonnie Ray Williams stated that he ate his lunch near the 3rd set of windows on the south side of the sixth floor.
-----------------------------
Luke Mooney was first on the scene of the SN. His initial report mentions the lunch.
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date: November 23 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Vickery to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dock at the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Vickery went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signalled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webster, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing. At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons. We continued to search the building for a suspect.
Note that Mooney does not mention the lunch prior to discovery of the SN.
McCurley's Report
Officer A. D. McCurley, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office (Statement 11/22/63)
Officer Jack Faulkner and I, together with several other City officers went to the building and started checking the floors. We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney, who was also on the 6th floor, hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw 3 expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide from the view of anyone who happened to come up on that floor and had arranged 3 other cartons of books next to the window as though to make a rifle rest. This area was roped off and guarded until Captain Will Fritz of Dallas Police Department Homicide Bureau arrived. It was about this same time that Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone yelled that he had found the rifle which had been placed between some rows of cardboard boxes near the staircase which leads down to the 5th floor.
Officer Jack Faulkner
There were also some chicken bones. Evidently he had chicken for his lunch. There were people that worked with him that had left maybe at noon. I don't know where they went because I didn't investigate that part of it. I've also heard of a bag which carried the rifle, but I never saw that. It could have been there, but I didn't notice it.
From "No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy" - Larry A. Sneed
Officer Roger Craig, Deputy Sheriff
Mr. BELIN - About how soon after they were found did you see them, laying on the floor?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell---or what?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember who that was?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you say there was a sack laying there?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BELIN - How big a sack was that?
Mr. CRAIG - It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag.
Mr. BELIN - Well, the kind-of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr. CRAIG - Yeah,--uh-huh.
Gerald Hill also recalls the finding of the SN and the Chicken Leg and Bag of top of the SN Boxes
Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.
At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab.
Harry Weatherford
The 11-23-63 report of Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford notes "I came down to the 6th floor, and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said "here are some shells." I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade."
Officer Brewer
Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see?
Mr. BREWER. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Where were they?
Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window.
Mr. BELIN. What window?
Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece at chicken.
Officer Haygood
Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.
Mr. BELIN. Which window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.
Eugene Boone
Mentions seeing the chicken before discovering the rifle in his Oral History with the 6th Floor Museum.
Two lunches. There was BRW’s lunch with a pop bottle and Fritos bag right where he stated it was located, 3rd aisle. In addition, there was a single piece of chicken on a carton used as a barricade with an explanation from Mr. Shelley. Not one of these officers statements mention the frito bag or pop bottle.
The "two lunches" theory is a non-starter for a number of reasons.
It's based on Shelley's supposed observation that he "thought" he saw either Givens or Williams (the only two black employees on the 6th floor) eating chicken on the 6th floor.
This is impossible as Williams had his lunch on the 6th floor while Shelley was down on the first floor (or possibly outside), and Givens left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived for work and ate his lunch outside the building.
It is possible that Shelley saw Givens eating his lunch outside but definitely not on the 6th floor.
His racist comment might indicate he saw one of them eating their lunch on the 6th floor on some other day because they were "always eating chicken", apparently.
The single piece of partially eaten chicken was no longer on the back wall of the Sniper's Nest when Studebaker arrived on the scene and he is specific that the only chicken remains found on the 6th floor were in the lunch sack.
The lunch sack was also discovered on top of the back wall of the Sniper's Nest. A number of officers saw it there, but this too had disappeared from the Sniper's Nest by the time Studebaker arrived.
The only lunch sack discovered on the 6th floor was originally discovered ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. It was then moved to the two-wheeler truck, along with the partially eaten piece of chicken. This same lunch sack had a piece of Fritos in it.
Bonnie Ray must have taken the Fritos bag with him because it was not left on the 6th floor. No officer saw it, it wasn't in the lunch sack, it wasn't with the rest of the lunch remains photographed in the third aisle and it wasn't found in the search of the 6th floor.
Bonnie Ray testified that he took a lunch sack, chicken-on-the-bone sandwich, bag of Fritos and a Dr Pepper up to the 6th floor. A lunch sack (containing a piece of Frito and chicken bones) and a partially eaten piece of chicken were found ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. This had all been removed by the time Studebaker showed up and placed at the end of the third aisle.
I'm also pretty sure that at least one officer noted the Dr Pepper bottle or an empty soda bottle in the southeast corner of the 6th floor, where the SN was located. I'll get back to you on that.
In short, the only lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor belonged to Bonnie Ray Williams and they were initially discovered ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest by the first officers on the scene.
This indicates that Bonnie Ray was being less than truthful when he testified that he had his lunch by the "third or fourth set of windows".
That said, he also testified that he sat in two locations when he went up to the 6th floor to watch the motorcade. In the first position he could rest with some boxes behind him while he waited for the motorcade to arrive:
"First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn’t anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."
It appears that that by the time he moved to the two-wheeler truck he had already eaten his lunch and was ready to leave:
Mr. WILLIAMS. ...So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
I wonder where this first location was, where he could relax and lean back against a stack of boxes behind him while watching the goings-on in Dealey Plaza. Presumably through an open window, as opposed to the closed, dirty third set of windows, while sat on a really uncomfortable looking little truck with no leg room.
-
[...]
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Where did Billy Ray Williams eat his lunch?
Inside the Sniper's Nest ? ? ?
If so, did he share his Fritos with Lee ? ? ?
-- Tom
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Where did Billy Ray Williams eat his lunch?
Inside the Sniper's Nest ? ? ?
-- Tom
If you believe Bonnie Ray ate his lunch in the third aisle then how did his lunch remains end up ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest?
You've tried to answer this question once and failed miserably.
You are the one who is spouting the Warren Commission's version of events, so it's up to you to explain this 'discrepancy'.
The truth is you can't rationally explain it.
You have been corrected on this issue time and time again and now, rather than make even more of a fool of yourself, you want me to explain it for you.
Either provide a coherent explanation, one that makes rational sense, or tell the truth...that you don't really care one way or the other and no amount of evidence is going to alter your spoon-fed beliefs.
-
If you believe Bonnie Ray ate his lunch in the third aisle then how did his lunch remains end up on top of the Sniper's Nest?
You've tried to answer this question once and failed miserably. You are the one who is spouting the Warren Commission's version of events, so it's up to you to explain this 'discrepancy'. The truth is you can't rationally explain it. You have been corrected on this issue time and time again and now, rather than make even more of a fool of yourself, you want me to explain it for you. Either provide a coherent explanation, one that makes rational sense, or tell the truth...that you don't really care one way or the other and no amount of evidence is going to alter your spoon-fed beliefs.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Please answer my question.
Did Bonnie Ray Williams eat inside the Sniper's Nest?
If so, did he share his Fritos with Lee?
-- Tom
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Please answer my question.
Did Bonnie Ray Williams eat inside the Sniper's Nest?
If so, did he share his Fritos with Lee?
-- Tom
What does the evidence suggest Thomas?
Bonnie Ray's lunch remains are found ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest?
They are then moved to the third aisle where they are photographed by Studebaker.
Bonnie Ray testifies that he had his lunch where the crime scene photos show the lunch remains - the third aisle.
But he also testifies that the first place he sat to have his lunch was a location where he could lean back against some boxes while looking out for the motorcade.
What rational explanation can you offer for all this evidence, Thomas?
You've come so far already.
Take the final step Thumb1:
-
What does the evidence suggest Thomas?
Bonnie Ray's lunch remains are found ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest?
They are then moved to the third aisle where they are photographed by Studebaker.
Bonnie Ray testifies that he had his lunch where the crime scene photos show the lunch remains - the third aisle.
But he also testifies that the first place he sat to have his lunch was a location where he could lean back against some boxes while looking out for the motorcade. What rational explanation can you offer for all this evidence, Thomas?
You've come so far already.Take the final step.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Are you afraid to say it?
-- Tom
-
It's you who is afraid to go where the evidence leads, Thomas?
My opinion on this matter has been well documented on this forum.
-
It's you who is afraid to go where the evidence leads, Thomas? My opinion on this matter has been well documented on this forum.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Please say it again.
Bonnie Ray Williams ate his lunch with Lee in the Sniper's Nest, right?
-- Tom
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Please say it again.
Billy Ray Williams ate his lunch with Lee in the Sniper's Nest, right?
-- Tom
Billy Ray Williams :D
Don't you mean Billy Ray Cyrus :D
Is this a new theory you're working on?
You should team up with Royell.
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Billy Ray Williams :D
Don't you mean Billy Ray Cyrus :D
Is this a new theory you're working on?
You should team up with Royell.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
LOL!
Good one!
Here it is again for you:
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Please say it again.
Billy Bonnie Ray Williams ate his lunch with Lee in the Sniper's Nest, right?
-- Tom
-
Two lunches. There was BRW’s lunch with a pop bottle and Fritos bag right where he stated it was located, 3rd aisle. In addition, there was a single piece of chicken on a carton used as a barricade with an explanation from Mr. Shelley. Not one of these officers statements mention the frito bag or pop bottle.
The "two lunches" theory is a non-starter for a number of reasons.
It's based on Shelley's supposed observation that he "thought" he saw either Givens or Williams (the only two black employees on the 6th floor) eating chicken on the 6th floor.
This is impossible as Williams had his lunch on the 6th floor while Shelley was down on the first floor (or possibly outside), and Givens left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived for work and ate his lunch outside the building.
It is possible that Shelley saw Givens eating his lunch outside but definitely not on the 6th floor.
His racist comment might indicate he saw one of them eating their lunch on the 6th floor on some other day because they were "always eating chicken", apparently.
The single piece of partially eaten chicken was no longer on the back wall of the Sniper's Nest when Studebaker arrived on the scene and he is specific that the only chicken remains found on the 6th floor were in the lunch sack.
The lunch sack was also discovered on top of the back wall of the Sniper's Nest. A number of officers saw it there, but this too had disappeared from the Sniper's Nest by the time Studebaker arrived.
The only lunch sack discovered on the 6th floor was originally discovered ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. It was then moved to the two-wheeler truck, along with the partially eaten piece of chicken. This same lunch sack had a piece of Fritos in it.
Bonnie Ray must have taken the Fritos bag with him because it was not left on the 6th floor. No officer saw it, it wasn't in the lunch sack, it wasn't with the rest of the lunch remains photographed in the third aisle and it wasn't found in the search of the 6th floor.
Bonnie Ray testified that he took a lunch sack, chicken-on-the-bone sandwich, bag of Fritos and a Dr Pepper up to the 6th floor. A lunch sack (containing a piece of Frito and chicken bones) and a partially eaten piece of chicken were found ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. This had all been removed by the time Studebaker showed up and placed at the end of the third aisle.
I'm also pretty sure that at least one officer noted the Dr Pepper bottle or an empty soda bottle in the southeast corner of the 6th floor, where the SN was located. I'll get back to you on that.
In short, the only lunch remains discovered on the 6th floor belonged to Bonnie Ray Williams and they were initially discovered ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest by the first officers on the scene.
This indicates that Bonnie Ray was being less than truthful when he testified that he had his lunch by the "third or fourth set of windows".
That said, he also testified that he sat in two locations when he went up to the 6th floor to watch the motorcade. In the first position he could rest with some boxes behind him while he waited for the motorcade to arrive:
"First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn’t anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."
It appears that that by the time he moved to the two-wheeler truck he had already eaten his lunch and was ready to leave:
Mr. WILLIAMS. ...So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
I wonder where this first location was, where he could relax and lean back against a stack of boxes behind him while watching the goings-on in Dealey Plaza. Presumably through an open window, as opposed to the closed, dirty third set of windows, while sat on a really uncomfortable looking little truck with no leg room.
“The "two lunches" theory is a non-starter for a number of reasons.
It's based on Shelley's supposed observation that he "thought" he saw either Givens or Williams (the only two black employees on the 6th floor) eating chicken on the 6th floor.”
Unfortunately, this statement is not correct. There were most definitely two different locations and Mr Shelley was correct in what he observed. The two detectives, Johnson and Montgomery charged with preserving the area, describe first the lunch left by BR Williams, followed by Det Montgomery explaining the second location of a piece of chicken left on top of the barricade boxes.
Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner.
Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle.
And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work.
Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle?
Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken.
Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window.
Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center?
Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of windows to my--I am pretty sure it was.
Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall?
Mr. JOHNSON. To the west.
Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner.
Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?
Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take pictures?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up had been moved there?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure
-------------------------
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken.
Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it looked like somebody had been eating chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes---right there on the floor.
Mr. BALL On the floor?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around right there.
Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there----one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.
Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.
Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.
Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.
Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window.
Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was sitting over there by itself.
Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the hulls there were.
Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle.
Mr. BALL. Correct.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that sack I'm thinking about---the one we found on the floor there that was used.
Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now?
Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't.
Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around where the hulls were found.
Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of----
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there.
Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. There's some boxes coming along in there.
Mr. BALL. Coming along in there you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here.
Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Partially eaten?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten---on that picture right there I was just looking at.
Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.
-
“The "two lunches" theory is a non-starter for a number of reasons.
It's based on Shelley's supposed observation that he "thought" he saw either Givens or Williams (the only two black employees on the 6th floor) eating chicken on the 6th floor.”
Unfortunately, this statement is not correct. There were most definitely two different locations and Mr Shelley was correct in what he observed. The two detectives, Johnson and Montgomery charged with preserving the area, describe first the lunch left by BR Williams, followed by Det Montgomery explaining the second location of a piece of chicken left on top of the barricade boxes.
Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner.
Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle.
And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work.
Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle?
Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken.
Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window.
Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center?
Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of windows to my--I am pretty sure it was.
Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall?
Mr. JOHNSON. To the west.
Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows?
Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner.
Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?
Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take pictures?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up had been moved there?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure
-------------------------
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken.
Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it looked like somebody had been eating chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes---right there on the floor.
Mr. BALL On the floor?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around right there.
Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there----one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.
Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.
Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.
Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.
Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window.
Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was sitting over there by itself.
Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the hulls there were.
Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle.
Mr. BALL. Correct.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that sack I'm thinking about---the one we found on the floor there that was used.
Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now?
Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't.
Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around where the hulls were found.
Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of----
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there.
Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. There's some boxes coming along in there.
Mr. BALL. Coming along in there you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here.
Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Partially eaten?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten---on that picture right there I was just looking at.
Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.
Mr Shelley was correct in what he observed.
I've already explained why Shelley cannot have seen one of the black employees eating lunch on the 6th floor.
I posted this:
"This is impossible as Williams had his lunch on the 6th floor while Shelley was down on the first floor (or possibly outside), and Givens left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived for work and ate his lunch outside the building.
It is possible that Shelley saw Givens eating his lunch outside but definitely not on the 6th floor.
His racist comment might indicate he saw one of them eating their lunch on the 6th floor on some other day because they were "always eating chicken", apparently."
Please explain why you think Shelley was correct.
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Mr Shelley was correct in what he observed.
I've already explained why Shelley cannot have seen one of the black employees eating lunch on the 6th floor.
I posted this:
"This is impossible as Williams had his lunch on the 6th floor while Shelley was down on the first floor (or possibly outside), and Givens left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived for work and ate his lunch outside the building.
It is possible that Shelley saw Givens eating his lunch outside but definitely not on the 6th floor.
His racist comment might indicate he saw one of them eating their lunch on the 6th floor on some other day because they were "always eating chicken", apparently."
Please explain why you think Shelley was correct.
You made up a bunch of nonsense about BRW and his lunch; that was most obviously not true. Now you follow that up with this fabricated tripe because you cannot even read what Mr. Shelley told the WC? If you cannot understand what he stated to them, it is only because you do not want too. No one can help you with that.
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You made up a bunch of nonsense about BRW and his lunch; that was most obviously not true. Now you follow that up with this fabricated tripe because you cannot even read what Mr. Shelley told the WC? If you cannot understand what he stated to them, it is only because you do not want too. No one can help you with that.
You need to calm down, Jack.
Let's deal with your wild, unsubstantiated claims first -
1] Quote what nonsense I have "made up" about Williams and his lunch.
By that I mean quote the actual words I have posted, not your raving opinion.
2] Quote what "fabricated tripe" I have posted.
Again, quote my actual words, not your unhinged ravings.
Shelley told the WC he 'thought' that at one time he might have said to someone that Givens was eating fried chicken, but he wasn't sure. He even had to ask Givens, he was so unsure.
But Givens is clear - he left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived at work and ate his sandwich outside the building at lunch time.
That's a fact.
What are you going to do now? Have another breakdown?
I've dealt with you before, Jack.
You usually last at least a couple of posts before you start ranting.
So, take a breath and decide whether you want to discuss this rationally or whether you are just going full rant mode from the start.
Check Givens' testimony. He states he had his sandwich outside the building.
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Let's have a rational discussion, Jack. Like two adults.
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You need to calm down, Jack.
Let's deal with your wild, unsubstantiated claims first -
1] Quote what nonsense I have "made up" about Williams and his lunch.
By that I mean quote the actual words I have posted, not your raving opinion.
2] Quote what "fabricated tripe" I have posted.
Again, quote my actual words, not your unhinged ravings.
Shelley told the WC he 'thought' that at one time he might have said to someone that Givens was eating fried chicken, but he wasn't sure. He even had to ask Givens, he was so unsure.
But Givens is clear - he left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived at work and ate his sandwich outside the building at lunch time.
That's a fact.
What are you going to do now? Have another breakdown?
I've dealt with you before, Jack.
You usually last at least a couple of posts before you start ranting.
So, take a breath and decide whether you want to discuss this rationally or whether you are just going full rant mode from the start.
Check Givens' testimony. He states he had his sandwich outside the building.
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Let's have a rational discussion, Jack. Like two adults.
This is new. Dan the Victim.
You need to calm down, Jack.
Let's deal with your wild, unsubstantiated claims first -
This is surprising. Tripe and nonsense are the basis and backbone of your standard post.
1] Quote what nonsense I have "made up" about Williams and his lunch.
By that I mean quote the actual words I have posted, not your raving opinion.
2] Quote what "fabricated tripe" I have posted.
Again, quote my actual words, not your unhinged ravings.
Dan---"The lunch remains photographed by Studebaker by the two-wheeler, at the end of the third aisle, in front of the third set of windows from Houston Street, were initially discovered by Luke Mooney ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. Luke Mooney was the officer who discovered the SN, the first person on that scene after the shooting.
This means two things:
1] When Bonnie Ray finished his lunch he left the remains of the lunch on top of the Sniper's Nest. Why would he do that?
2] These lunch remains were removed from the Sniper's Nest and placed by the two-wheeler truck shortly after their discovery. Who did that and why?"
What kind of a mind could even think this crap up? They knew they had to move because --Why? What a bunch of garbage.
Shelley told the WC he 'thought' that at one time he might have said to someone that Givens was eating fried chicken, but he wasn't sure. He even had to ask Givens, he was so unsure.
But Givens is clear - he left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived at work and ate his sandwich outside the building at lunch time.
That's a fact.
Huh, what? Typical Dan one dimensional thinking. Completely missed the point or deliberately trying to change the subject.
I've dealt with you before, Jack.
Really? No, you were tolerated like a simple minded child. Had to babysit you through the whole discussion.
You usually last at least a couple of posts before you start ranting.
So, take a breath and decide whether you want to discuss this rationally or whether you are just going full rant mode from the start.
Dan the Victim again. After babysitting you through the Styles and Adams nonsense, pretty low on tolerance.
Check Givens' testimony. He states he had his sandwich outside the building.
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
He was stating they were always snacking. You can’t put that together? No wonder this whole thing goes right past you.
Let's have a rational discussion, Jack. Like two adults.
The discussion is over. Two detectives explained their role in watching over the lunch remains. Did you miss that? Once again, I think you have been embarrassed by not knowing the whole story and posting your one dimensional thinking. The rest of this is covering up that fact.
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This is new. Dan the Victim.
You need to calm down, Jack.
Let's deal with your wild, unsubstantiated claims first -
This is surprising. Tripe and nonsense are the basis and backbone of your standard post.
1] Quote what nonsense I have "made up" about Williams and his lunch.
By that I mean quote the actual words I have posted, not your raving opinion.
2] Quote what "fabricated tripe" I have posted.
Again, quote my actual words, not your unhinged ravings.
Dan---"The lunch remains photographed by Studebaker by the two-wheeler, at the end of the third aisle, in front of the third set of windows from Houston Street, were initially discovered by Luke Mooney ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest. Luke Mooney was the officer who discovered the SN, the first person on that scene after the shooting.
This means two things:
1] When Bonnie Ray finished his lunch he left the remains of the lunch on top of the Sniper's Nest. Why would he do that?
2] These lunch remains were removed from the Sniper's Nest and placed by the two-wheeler truck shortly after their discovery. Who did that and why?"
What kind of a mind could even think this crap up? They knew they had to move because --Why? What a bunch of garbage.
Shelley told the WC he 'thought' that at one time he might have said to someone that Givens was eating fried chicken, but he wasn't sure. He even had to ask Givens, he was so unsure.
But Givens is clear - he left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived at work and ate his sandwich outside the building at lunch time.
That's a fact.
Huh, what? Typical Dan one dimensional thinking. Completely missed the point or deliberately trying to change the subject.
I've dealt with you before, Jack.
Really? No, you were tolerated like a simple minded child. Had to babysit you through the whole discussion.
You usually last at least a couple of posts before you start ranting.
So, take a breath and decide whether you want to discuss this rationally or whether you are just going full rant mode from the start.
Dan the Victim again. After babysitting you through the Styles and Adams nonsense, pretty low on tolerance.
Check Givens' testimony. He states he had his sandwich outside the building.
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
He was stating they were always snacking. You can’t put that together? No wonder this whole thing goes right past you.
Let's have a rational discussion, Jack. Like two adults.
The discussion is over. Two detectives explained their role in watching over the lunch remains. Did you miss that? Once again, I think you have been embarrassed by not knowing the whole story and posting your one dimensional thinking. The rest of this is covering up that fact.
:D :D :D
Classic Nessan foaming-at -the-mouth lunacy.
For anyone who wants a laugh have a look at the "3 Minute Lie" thread where you will find Jack in full rant mode.
When handling someone like Jack, the trick is to keep presenting the facts and simply wait for the meltdown.
Finding Bonnie Ray's lunch remains ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest is a truly massive headache for Lone Nuttters. There have been numerous attempts trying to explain this inconvenient fact away (we've already seen Tom's piss-weak attempt) and now we have Jack insisting there was two sets of lunch remains - one on the Sniper's Nest and one a couple of aisles over by the two-wheeler truck.
The main part of Jack's argument is Shelley's WC testimony. In it Shelley says he thought that maybe he might have told someone at some time that he thought he might have seen Charles Givens eating chicken on the 6th floor on the day of the assassination. He says that he even asked Givens what he was eating.
However, Givens is adamant that he ate his lunch - a sandwich - outside the building:
Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?
Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let’s see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.
Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?
Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir ; I eat inside the building all the time.
Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
What do you say to that, Jack?
And here's the two questions you avoided from my last post. So, for the second time:
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Let the meltdown commence Thumb1:
-
:D :D :D
Classic Nessan foaming-at -the-mouth lunacy.
For anyone who wants a laugh have a look at the "3 Minute Lie" thread where you will find Jack in full rant mode.
When handling someone like Jack, the trick is to keep presenting the facts and simply wait for the meltdown.
Finding Bonnie Ray's lunch remains ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest is a truly massive headache for Lone Nuttters. There have been numerous attempts trying to explain this inconvenient fact away (we've already seen Tom's piss-weak attempt) and now we have Jack insisting there was two sets of lunch remains - one on the Sniper's Nest and one a couple of aisles over by the two-wheeler truck.
The main part of Jack's argument is Shelley's WC testimony. In it Shelley says he thought that maybe he might have told someone at some time that he thought he might have seen Charles Givens eating chicken on the 6th floor on the day of the assassination. He says that he even asked Givens what he was eating.
However, Givens is adamant that he ate his lunch - a sandwich - outside the building:
Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?
Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let’s see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.
Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?
Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir ; I eat inside the building all the time.
Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
What do you say to that, Jack?
And here's the two questions you avoided from my last post. So, for the second time:
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Let the meltdown commence Thumb1:
It must be causing you a great deal of anguish to have your silly little conspiracy theory get stepped on just because a couple of detectives were assigned to watch over the area. Are you coming to the end of these ridiculous odd theories that are basically meaningless to start with or are there more of them?
Maybe next time, read a little more before you start posting. There are numerous older threads that have dealt with this same information. You aren’t the first, just the latest.
So, the only problem you are having is where did Givens eat his lunch. Not did he or other workers eat a piece of chicken during the day? Wow, and now you are lying on the floor throwing a temper tantrum because Shelley noticed they would do just that?
Mr. Shelley’s, Det Johnson’s, and Det. Montgomery’s testimonies have not changed. If you look back on page 8, you can reread them. Maybe this time you will understand them.
-
Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
-
Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Not surprising you missed this. Givens told Shelley a different story.
Mr. SHELLEY - At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.
Mr. BALL - Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.
Mr. BALL - Do you think you did or do you know?
Mr. SHELLEY - I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.
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It must be causing you a great deal of anguish to have your silly little conspiracy theory get stepped on just because a couple of detectives were assigned to watch over the area. Are you coming to the end of these ridiculous odd theories that are basically meaningless to start with or are there more of them?
Maybe next time, read a little more before you start posting. There are numerous older threads that have dealt with this same information. You aren’t the first, just the latest.
So, the only problem you are having is where did Givens eat his lunch. Not did he or other workers eat a piece of chicken during the day? Wow, and now you are lying on the floor throwing a temper tantrum because Shelley noticed they would do just that?
Mr. Shelley’s, Det Johnson’s, and Det. Montgomery’s testimonies have not changed. If you look back on page 8, you can reread them. Maybe this time you will understand them.
:D :D :D
Full meltdown mode, as expected.
For the THIRD time:
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Have a closer read of Shelley's testimony, Jack.
He is, basically, asked if he saw anyone eating chicken on the 6th floor on the day of the assassination. It's a Yes or No answer.
His reply could not be more vague - he might have, perhaps, maybe said that to unnamed someone at some unspecified time. But it turns out Givens, the man that Shelley thinks perhaps might have been eating fried chicken WASN'T eating fried chicken at all and that it was further west in the building than where the lunch remains in the third aisle were discovered.
So it couldn't have been Given's lunch remains found ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest even if they were Givens' lunch remains.
According to Shelley, Givens had his lunch at 9:30 IN THE MORNING, which is utter nonsense.
Givens had his lunch at lunch time and he was stood outside the building when he had it:
Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?
Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let’s see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.
Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?
Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir ; I eat inside the building all the time.
Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
There is no uncertainty in Given's mind.
He left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived at work and had his lunch at lunch time, stood outside the building.
Your little "two lunches" theory lies in tatters (like most every other theory you propose).
But, just for laughs, kindly explain to the forum how Given's imaginary lunch remains made it all the way over to ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest and where did they disappear to by the time Studebaker arrived on the scene.
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:D :D :D
Full meltdown mode, as expected.
For the THIRD time:
Do you agree that a partially eaten piece of chicken was found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Now...here's the big one - Do you agree that a small lunch sack was also found on top of the Sniper's Nest?
Have a closer read of Shelley's testimony, Jack.
He is, basically, asked if he saw anyone eating chicken on the 6th floor on the day of the assassination. It's a Yes or No answer.
His reply could not be more vague - he might have, perhaps, maybe said that to unnamed someone at some unspecified time. But it turns out Givens, the man that Shelley thinks perhaps might have been eating fried chicken WASN'T eating fried chicken at all and that it was further west in the building than where the lunch remains in the third aisle were discovered.
So it couldn't have been Given's lunch remains found ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest even if they were Givens' lunch remains.
According to Shelley, Givens had his lunch at 9:30 IN THE MORNING, which is utter nonsense.
Givens had his lunch at lunch time and he was stood outside the building when he had it:
Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?
Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let’s see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.
Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?
Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir ; I eat inside the building all the time.
Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
There is no uncertainty in Given's mind.
He left his lunch in the domino room when he arrived at work and had his lunch at lunch time, stood outside the building.
Your little "two lunches" theory lies in tatters (like most every other theory you propose).
But, just for laughs, kindly explain to the forum how Given's imaginary lunch remains made it all the way over to ON TOP of the Sniper's Nest and where did they disappear to by the time Studebaker arrived on the scene.
This is exactly the response that was expected. The previous posts explain the flaws in your story. There is no reason to keep posting the same information that completely refutes this theory, and then you once again pretend the information doesn’t exist.
Now here you are once again, continually bawling for an answer to some doltish question you have concocted while ignoring the facts of the issue that have already been posted. Instead, whining and hoping for help to salvage this seriously flawed theory.
It seems you are getting worse. These theories have become so increasingly pathetic that you can’t even support them anymore. A little research on your part and you would have known how meritless this theory was before it ever was posted. Maybe the next one, and I am sure there will be one, will be a little more based on reality. You have been told the answer; you just aren’t clever enough to accept it. Instead, pretending the information has not been posted already.
Do you even realize you have postulated, that these detectives had moved a chicken lunch to a new location with no explanation for why they would even do that, or why anyone would even do that, and it somehow makes complete sense to you. Just another made up bizarre Dan O fantasy. The Styles and Adams storyline was pathetic enough but pales in comparison to this conspiracy fantasy.